# International border crossings



## Patrick

forget Schengen, link to the world  (all pics from Germany)


































and sorry for offtopic


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## Verso

^^ Have you conquered the world?


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## Alex Von Königsberg

I personally prefer if there was no border checkpoints between the USA and Canada because two countries are too much alike. Where I crossed the border, there were 2 booths into Canada and 4 booths into the USA, but on that time only 2 agents were checking cars on each side. Besides the border station there is no fence, and Zero Avenue is running on the Canadian side one metre from the border (on the left): 










If your car breaks down, you couldn't even park off the road because it would be a border crossing violation :lol: On both sides, there were houses less than 30 metres from the border.


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## TheCat

^^ That would be dangerous, we need to keep those illegal Canadian aliens from entering the US :lol:


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## mgk920

Chriszwolle said:


> The San Diego - Tijuana border crossing is said to be one of the busiest in the world. It has over 25 lanes i think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also notice the different amount of lanes, from US point of view: about 5 outbound, and over 25 inbound. Maybe because incoming traffic to the US is checked much more strictly then outgoing traffic to Mexico.


Mexico has a fairly loosely controlled 'Border Zone' that includes a strip about 50 or so km wide between the two gulfs plus the entire Baja Peninsula. Their REAL checkpoints are where one crosses from the Border Zone into the interior and, from I am aware of, are a hassle to cross, especially in a car. OTOH, the USA's big inspection is at the border.

Also, the yellow line is NOT in the right place in that image. The actual border is the grayish line between the checkpoints.

Mike


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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, the border is quite wrong there in the region. You can notice it also very good near Mexicali.


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## Sponsor

Border crossing - Zwardoń/Myto (POLAND/SLOVAKIA)
New terminal completed in 2004. In 2009 Poland and Slovakia will be in Schengen so I don't know what for this terminal is built :dunno:


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## ChrisZwolle

Poland & Slovakia (and many others) will be in Schengen before this Christmas!


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## superchan7

The crossed-out country names are funny. If only they had that syntax in the US!


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## Sponsor

Chriszwolle said:


> Poland & Slovakia (and many others) will be in Schengen before this Christmas!


1st January 2oo8 <--EDIT


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## ChrisZwolle

Sponsor said:


> 1st January 2oo9


The ten new member states that acceded to the European Union—and thus to the Schengen Agreement—on 1 May 2004, except for Cyprus, are set to implement the agreement on *21 December 2007* for overland borders and seaports, and on 29 March 2008 for airports. 

Source: wikipedia and another source

Congratulations :cheers:


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## go_leafs_go02

I was shocked that borders in Europe don't exist. I had my passport ready to show when we got near, and then, basically a sign that's as large as when you cross into a different County in Ontario tells you are in a different country.

Getting to the USA through Canada can be quite time-consuming, I just figured it was like that in most places.


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## x-type

Macelj/Obrežje (HR/SLO) - it+s second most important HR-SLO border crossing and allways crowded for LKW, but also often for other vehicles. it actually doesn't have large capacity, but i think that new border crossing will be built when Slovenia start to build motorway at its side (btw, i think they have allready made new border crossing which they plan to use, it's at picture)

HR (only half of it)









SLO


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## x-type

Maljevac/Velika Kladuša (HR/BIH)

i have never been there, but this is design for typical croatian border crossing, so probably it's croatian side (Maljevac), although there are some HR-BIH border crossing where police cooperates, so you don't have 2 sides











Kamensko HR/BIH

here i really don't know which side (maybe again that cooperation thing)


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## x-type

Debeli Brijeg/Sutorina (HR/MNE)

i guess this is montenegrian side because they have recently opened modern border crossing (they used to use only container till recently). croatian is typical if i remember photos well


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## Verso

Chriszwolle said:


> The ten new member states that acceded to the European Union—and thus to the Schengen Agreement—on 1 May 2004, except for Cyprus, are set to implement the agreement on *21 December 2007* for overland borders and seaports, and on 29 March 2008 for airports.
> 
> Source: wikipedia and another source
> 
> Congratulations :cheers:


No checking to Lisbon or Nordkapp. :cheers:


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## Qwert

Chriszwolle said:


> The ten new member states that acceded to the European Union—and thus to the Schengen Agreement—on 1 May 2004, except for Cyprus, are set to implement the agreement on *21 December 2007* for overland borders and seaports, and on 29 March 2008 for airports.
> 
> Source: wikipedia and another source
> 
> Congratulations :cheers:


It's not definitive. It should be definitely decided on December 6 but I think it's only formality. If Mr. Frattini said we will be in Schengen before Christmas it must be true. Finnaly, the Iron courtain falls. Or it's moving eastwards...?:dunno:


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## Alex Von Königsberg

Qwert said:


> Finnaly, the Iron courtain falls. Or it's moving eastwards...?:dunno:


With Russia regaining its power and ambitions, the new Iron Curtain may just as well be established at its borders.


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## Æsahættr

mgk920 said:


> Mexico has a fairly loosely controlled 'Border Zone' that includes a strip about 50 or so km wide between the two gulfs plus the entire Baja Peninsula. Their REAL checkpoints are where one crosses from the Border Zone into the interior and, from I am aware of, are a hassle to cross, especially in a car. OTOH, the USA's big inspection is at the border.


Interesting, please elaborate!


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## ADCS

lotrfan55345 said:


> Interesting, please elaborate!


If I may interject...

At the border, you buy a tourist pass which gives you 30 days in the country for about $200MX ($18US). You can stay within the 30 mi/50 km border zone without one in order to buy goods at the border towns, etc. A reciprocal agreement exists for Mexican nationals to buy US goods. However, once you travel south of the border zone, the Federal Police or Army sets up a checkpoint which every car must stop at. I was on a bus, so all they did was ask for an ID card or passport, and the tourist card. They also had dogs around looking for contraband. It was much the same way coming back into the United States (though the facility was nice new and shiny, thanks Homeland Security!) though it took longer, since the US officials looked at the Mexican citizen's papers with a lot more scrutiny than the Mexican officials looked at our papers. They also tore half our luggage up looking for drugs and other illegal items.


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## Alex Von Königsberg

ADCS, great avatar, man! kay:


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## ADCS

Alex Von Königsberg said:


> ADCS, great avatar, man! kay:


Heh, I did it just for you, dude :lol:


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## mojaBL

Bosnia Herzegovina - Serbia (GP Rača)









Bosnia Herzegovina - Serbia (GP Karakaj)









Bosnia Herzegovina - Croatia (GP Izačić)









Bosnia Herzegovina - Croatia (GP Kamensko)









Bosnia Herzegovina - Croatia (GP Maljevac) cooperation with Croatia


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## Qwert

mojaBL said:


> Bosnia Herzegovina - Serbia (GP Rača)


Funny, Rača is name of a quarter in Bratislava.



Alex Von Königsberg said:


> With Russia regaining its power and ambitions, the new Iron Curtain may just as well be established at its borders.


Russia doesn't need new Iron courtain. EU needs it. However, there is one big differention. Iron courtain had to keep people inside borders, Schengen border has to keep people outside borders.


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## x-type

Qwert said:


> Funny, Rača is name of a quarter in Bratislava.


and 15 km from my city we have a village called Rača, too. i think that name has some turkish roots


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## RawLee

H-A border,Hegyeshalom,M1 motorway








H-RO border,Ártánd








H-RO border,Nagylak








H-RO border,Battonya








H-SRB bordr,Tompa








H-UA border,Záhony


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## Jonesy55

mgk920 said:


> Mexico has a fairly loosely controlled 'Border Zone' that includes a strip about 50 or so km wide between the two gulfs plus the entire Baja Peninsula. Their REAL checkpoints are where one crosses from the Border Zone into the interior and, from I am aware of, are a hassle to cross, especially in a car. OTOH, the USA's big inspection is at the border.
> 
> Also, the yellow line is NOT in the right place in that image. The actual border is the grayish line between the checkpoints.
> 
> Mike


I was stopped and checked at a checkpoint about 50km inside the US, when travelling away from the Mexican border. It was on highway 67 travelling north from Presidio, Tx.

Is this normal in the border regions?


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## Qwert

x-type said:


> and 15 km from my city we have a village called Rača, too. i think that name has some turkish roots


I don't know. Names of Slovak Rača in official historical documents were Recha, Racha, Okolj, Račišča, Résca, Ratsesdorf, Račišdorf. It doesn't matter, they have good wine there.:cheers: There is also one mountain in North-Central Slovakia called Veľká Rača in Oščadnica municipality. There is big ski center.



Jonesy55 said:


> I was stopped and checked at a checkpoint about 50km inside the US, when travelling away from the Mexican border. It was on highway 67 travelling north from Presidio, Tx.
> 
> Is this normal in the border regions?


It's even in Schengen border. 50 km from the border is border zone where you can be checked. Police and army have special rights, they cen even enter your estate without your permission.


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## rick1016

Very interesting. I thought that at most of the European borders you didn't have to stop.


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## RawLee

^^Only between already Schengen members you dont have to stop. But the police/borderguard/thewayyoucallit has the right to stop you 50kms inside the country.








dark blue - Implementing countries 
light blue - Implementing through partnership with a signatory state 
dark grey/blue-ish - Members implementing from 21 December 2007 (overland borders) and 29 March 2008 (seaports and airports) 
light grey/blue-ish - Members (not yet implemented) 
yellow - Expressed interest in joining


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## x-type

i ahd absolutely no idea that Iceland and Norway are in Schengen zone!


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## RawLee

^^Somewhere I've read that even Switzerland thinks about joining ,since it doesnt mean giving up neutrality.


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## Qwert

x-type said:


> i ahd absolutely no idea that Iceland and Norway are in Schengen zone!


That's cool I don't have to stop on Iceland border. Only it's pitiy I can't drive there by car.:lol:


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## Jonesy55

rick1016 said:


> Very interesting. I thought that at most of the European borders you didn't have to stop.


You don't, the police/border officials have the right to stop you in a border area if they want to but most of the time the borders are open and you don't have to stop.

They would only stop you if they had reason to suspect you of an offence or if there was a general security alert they might temporarily impose border checks.


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## KHS

Although Croatia isn't in Schengen Croatian citizents don't need passports to enter Italy, Slovenia or Hungary. But you need to have your identity card of course.


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## Jeroen669

Jonesy55 said:


> They would only stop you if they had reason to suspect you of an offence or if there was a general security alert they might temporarily impose border checks.


Yeah, like with the World Championships, for instance. I remember the traffic jams at the border line with Germany.



Patrick said:


> forget Schengen, link to the world  (all pics from Germany)


A bit off-topic, but we have some weird villages too. Nederland (Netherlands), Oostenrijk (Austria), Engeland (England), America... Seems like they're doing for it. :nuts:


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## x-type

Qwert said:


> That's cool I don't have to stop on Iceland border. Only it's pitiy I can't drive there by car.:lol:


but when you land by plane or boat, you don't have to pass too complicated border controls.

@KHS: nor Sna Marino, Lithuania and few more countries (7 i guess), but i have never liked to go abroad without passport


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## x-type

Jeroen669 said:


> A bit off-topic, but we have some weird villages too. Nederland (Netherlands), Oostenrijk (Austria), Engeland (England), America... Seems like they're doing for it. :nuts:


we have Bugarska (Bulgaria), Bosna (Bosnia) and Rim (Rome):lol:


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## Jonesy55

x-type said:


> but when you land by plane or boat, you don't have to pass too complicated border controls.


The UK isn't in Schengen but I don't think i've ever been checked when coming into the country by boat, the procedures are definitely not complicated, maybe just wave a passport, maybe not even that.


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## x-type

because you're not from "suspicious" country. we must fullfill some imigration forms, that usually takes 15-45 minutes. but it's only for UK. when we enter Schengen zone, we get the entrance sign (as everybody) and if we change country (by a plane or boat), we they just check if we have entrance sign (the sign is this ink thing that policeman at bordercrossing puts into your passport, i don't know in english  )


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## Jonesy55

x-type said:


> because you're not from "suspicious" country.


That's true, you can't trust these Croats hno: 



x-type said:


> we must fullfill some imigration forms, that usually takes 15-45 minutes. but it's only for UK. )


For Ireland too, we have a sort of 'mini-schengen' with the Irish Republic, you can travel on boats or planes without a passport and there are no checkpoints on the land border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.



x-type said:


> when we enter Schengen zone, we get the entrance sign (as everybody) and if we change country (by a plane or boat), we they just check if we have entrance sign (the sign is this ink thing that policeman at bordercrossing puts into your passport, i don't know in english  )


It's called a stamp.

I was disappointed that I didn't get a stamp when driving from Slovenia to Croatia, the border guards just waved me through with no checks and on returning to Slovenia they looked briefly at my passport but didn't stamp it.


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## x-type

Jonesy55 said:


> That's true, you can't trust these Croats hno:








Jonesy55 said:


> I was disappointed that I didn't get a stamp when driving from Slovenia to Croatia, the border guards just waved me through with no checks and on returning to Slovenia they looked briefly at my passport but didn't stamp it.


that's really weird because Slovenians are really not miserly at all when they have to stamp the passports! in my passport each entrance stamp has its outgoing counterpart, and as much i i've seen, the same situation is with my friends too. maybe in summer when it's really crowded they don't stamp that much, but ink industry like them indeed!


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## Qwert

x-type said:


> but when you land by plane or boat, you don't have to pass too complicated border controls.
> 
> @KHS: nor Sna Marino, Lithuania and few more countries (7 i guess), but i have never liked to go abroad without passport


Yes, I know I don't have to pass controls.

BTW, is it possible to travel to Croatia from Schengen country only with ID card or do I need a passport?

EDIT: Bonus photo of border crossing Jarovce(SK)/Rajka(H). Look at it carefully beacause it will disppear soon.:


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## x-type

Qwert said:


> Yes, I know I don't have to pass controls.
> 
> BTW, is it possible to travel to Croatia from Schengen country only with ID card or do I need a passport?


depends where are you from. EU citizens can enter to Croatia only with personal ID


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## KHS

Jonesy55 said:


> I was disappointed that I didn't get a stamp when driving from Slovenia to Croatia, the border guards just waved me through with no checks and on returning to Slovenia they looked briefly at my passport but didn't stamp it.


Let me guess... It was probably Saturday in the middle of tourist season.


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## Qwert

x-type said:


> depends where are you from. EU citizens can enter to Croatia only with personal ID


I'm from Slovakia so ID card will be enough.


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## x-type

Qwert said:


> I'm from Slovakia so ID card will be enough.


web of our Ministry of Foreign Affairs says so


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## Jonesy55

KHS said:


> Let me guess... It was probably Saturday in the middle of tourist season.


I don't remember what day it was but it was late September, there was a queue of maybe three or four cars but it wasn't very busy. The crossing was by the coast, near the Secovlje salt pans on the Slovenian side.


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## x-type

well, that's weird then  they were not in the mood


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## Qwert

x-type said:


> web of our Ministry of Foreign Affairs says so


Last year I've been in Croatia only with ID card. I was wondering if it will be still possible even after joining Schengen. You have excellent highways, only a bit expansive especially on Central Europe circumstances.


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## ChrisZwolle

Last time i went to Sweden, they stopped me at the border, i think because i have drugs..uh Dutch (  ) plates. They asked me if i was in Sweden before, and if i knew anyone in Sweden, and if the car was mine. They didn't want to see any papers, just some questions.


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## Grotlaufen

Chriszwolle said:


> Last time i went to Sweden, they stopped me at the border, i think because i have drugs..uh Dutch (  ) plates. They asked me if i was in Sweden before, and if i knew anyone in Sweden, and if the car was mine. They didn't want to see any papers, just some questions.


Yea, customs are a pain-in-the-ass. You never know when/if they appear, sometimes they check all the trains too and other times they sit inside their booths drinking coffee. A trick if you don´t want to be stopped is to open up your window before approaching them, because the officer/s then believe you´ve got nothing to hide since your´e showing a willingness to co-operate


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## Maxx☢Power

Chriszwolle said:


> Last time i went to Sweden, they stopped me at the border, i think because i have drugs..uh Dutch (  ) plates.


They're only allowed to stop you if they suspect you're smuggling, so that's very likely


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## ChrisZwolle

MaxxPower said:


> They're only allowed to stop you if they suspect you're smuggling, so that's very likely


Yeah, since we are the narcotica state in Europe (and i'm not proud of that), i think they pick Dutch cars faster as German cars.


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## Maxx☢Power

NL = narkolangare = drug dealer


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## ADCS

Chriszwolle said:


> Yeah, since we are the narcotica state in Europe (and i'm not proud of that), i think they pick Dutch cars faster as German cars.


Pretty much why the border controls between the US and Mexico are so much stricter than those between Canada and the US, though that has changed in recent years.

Of course, there's other aspects to it as well, but that's not something exactly to be proud of.


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## TheCat

ADCS said:


> Pretty much why the border controls between the US and Mexico are so much stricter than those between Canada and the US, though that has changed in recent years.
> 
> Of course, there's other aspects to it as well, but that's not something exactly to be proud of.


Yeah, border control is being tightened between Canada and the US. Previously, you wouldn't need a passport to cross. All you needed was a valid ID, like a driver's license (in Canada and the US we don't have identity cards). However, beginning in January 2008, passports will be required to pass between the two countries by land, and passports have already been required for some time to pass by air.


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## Alex Von Königsberg

It doesn't feel right - in Europe the borders are being erased while the US-Canada border is being tightened even further.


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## ADCS

Alex Von Königsberg said:


> It doesn't feel right - in Europe the borders are being erased while the US-Canada border is being tightened even further.


Yep. The increasing supply of high-quality marijuana from British Columbia is one part of it. The other part is that the current administration has gotten so many people freakishly afraid of terrorists from other countries. It's really quite disappointing.


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## rick1016

TheCat said:


> Yeah, border control is being tightened between Canada and the US. Previously, you wouldn't need a passport to cross. All you needed was a valid ID, like a driver's license (in Canada and the US we don't have identity cards). However, beginning in January 2008, passports will be required to pass between the two countries by land, and passports have already been required for some time to pass by air.


It's pretty stupid, IMO. We are two developed nations. Both being some of the wealthiest in the world, yet we are going backwards in this case. Seems to me we should be making it easier to cross border, especially with the free trade happening.


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## mojaBL

Serbian/Croatian Francuska


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## DanielFigFoz

Prtuguese is even more similar: 

Spain-Espanha
France-França


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## RawLee

^^come on! Those words are even similar in hungarian...spanish-spanyol,french-francia


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## KIWIKAAS

Kerkrade, Netherlands.

Border Netherlands and Germany


















It wasn't always so....

Same spot late 19th century


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## wyqtor

You mean... one lane of that street is in NL and the other in Germany? Wow...


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## Verso

^ Yeah, previously you had to show passport in the roundabout. Or when overtaking. Joke.  Seriously, how was this regulated?


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## Gag Halfrunt

The website those photos come from, Special European Borders, says that the road was divided into two by a wall.


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## Jeroen669

There are more examples like that one in Kerkrade. But it is nothing compared to the border lines in Baarle-Hertog (Belgium) and Baarle-Nassau (Netherlands). 










All the white lines are border lines...


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## Qwert

Jeroen669 said:


> There are more examples like that one in Kerkrade. But it is nothing compared to the border lines in Baarle-Hertog (Belgium) and Baarle-Nassau (Netherlands).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All the white lines are border lines...


Who made such border?:eek2: What's its history?


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## Verso

That's nothing. Where's that enclave in exclave in enclave in exclave...? :naughty:


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## Alex Von Königsberg

KIWIKAAS said:


> Kerkrade, Netherlands.
> Border Netherlands and Germany


I wish the entire world had such borders  I am wondering if people who live across the street from each other speak different languages? :nuts:


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## Jeroen669

They'll sure do. I lived in a border village for many years but never had problems with it. Even better, I worked in a dutch supermarkt and about 80% of the costumers were Germans. :lol: German is not a very difficult language for dutch people so most people can speak it, more or less. In the border regions sometimes people from both sides of the border can even communicate with each other, talking in their own language (if not with an dialect).


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## ChrisZwolle

Eastern Netherlands dialect is even called "Nedersaksisch", Niedersachsisch or Lower Saxonian. People in Ostfriesland (Germany) often speak some sort of Dutch-German dialect. 

German is also teached at school. i personally can read German very good, although i can also write it, the grammar is more complicated.


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## Club_Dru

Glanerbrug (NL) a village near my hometown.

A couple of streets between Glanerbrug (NL) and Gronau (D)









Dutch sign









This cafe is German, the sign with 50km is Glanerbrug (NL)

























Busstop for German and Dutch busses.









Most people who lives near or at the Dutch and German border, can communicate in both languages. In the Netherlands every school teached German. In Germany they teach only Dutch at schools in german villages near the Dutch borders.


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## Verso

Obrežje/Bregana, the main (motorway) border crossing between Slovenia and Croatia:


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## mgk920

Speaking of the Schengen Zone, its big expansion has been set for 2007-12-21.

http://euobserver.com/9/25109/?rk=1

The nine new countries - Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovenia, Slovakia and the Czech Republic - will formally join the Zone and drop their internal border controls on that date.

:cheers1:

Now - to have such a setup in North America....

Mike


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## Jeroen669

Qwert said:


> Who made such border?:eek2: What's its history?


To be honest, I don't know the exact history. This says wikipedia:



> Baarle-Nassau is a municipality and a town in the southern Netherlands.
> 
> It is closely linked, with complicated borders, to the Belgian exclaves of Baarle-Hertog. Baarle-Hertog consists of 26 separate pieces of land. Apart from the main piece (called Zondereigen) located north of the Belgian town of Merksplas, there are twenty-two Belgian exclaves in the Netherlands and three other pieces on the Dutch-Belgian border. There are also seven Dutch exclaves located within the Belgian exclaves. Six of them are located in the largest one and a seventh in the second-largest one. An eighth Dutch exclave lies in Zondereigen. The smallest enclave, H22, measures 2632 square metres.
> 
> The complex border situation is a result of a number of equally complex medieval treaties, agreements, land-swaps and sales between the Lords of Breda and the Dukes of Brabant. Generally speaking, predominantly agricultural or built environments became constituents of Brabant, other parts devolved to Breda. These distributions were ratified and clarified as a part of the borderline settlements arrived at during the Treaty of Maastricht in 1843.


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## CborG

A clearer map of Baarle-Nassau and Baarle-Hertog, the red arced area is belgium territory and green are dutch counter-enclaves:










But that's peanuts compared to the Cooch Behar border region between India and Bangladesh

note: Old map! But the border is still the same


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## ChrisZwolle

Today, both N35 and B54 are rerouted in a rural route around the urban area of Enschede and Gronau. I think this was a mistake, the N35 and B54 were already rerouted in 2001, however there was a gap missing in Gronau, so you had to go through the city, but not through Glanerbrug, that was longer ago.


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## Rebasepoiss

Verso said:


> ^ Yeah, previously you had to show passport in the roundabout. Or when overtaking. Joke.  Seriously, how was this regulated?


 There is a house in South-East Estonia where the living room is in Estonia and the kitchen in Russia. And you have to remember that one usually needs a visa to go to Russia.


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## Verso

^ I assume the members of the household usually eat outside. 

I wonder how that's regulated in the case of India and Bangladesh. And isn't there also a quadripoint between them somewhere?


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## Stifler

I love those limits in the Benelux area where you can easily be in a different country in just a few minutes.

They are not that usual in Spain, but we have some examples.

Between Spain and France, there is a village called Le Phetrus/El Petrus. The border is exactly the main street of the village, so simply crossing the street you can find different products (and taxes, specially).

It's said that the most profitable tobacconist's of Spain is located there (the price is aprox. the half in Spain) and the French go back to their country with a load of alcohol bottles. 

Some picks of that street:


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## x-type

andrewsimons said:


>


it's so weird to see this sign in urban area!


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## Club_Dru

A couple of situations in Hertog (B) and Nassau (NL)

In this shop you walk between two different countries.
The vertical lines onder the flag, left is Belgium the right is Holland









Supermarket.









The neighbours downstrairs are Dutch, the neighbours upstairs are Belgiums.








The entry for the Dutch and Belgium neighbour

















Policestation. Left Belgium police-logo, the right Dutch police-logo


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## LT1550

Don't steal photos from www.grenzen.150m.com! I contribute photos for that site :nono:


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## Verso

Thank god for Schengen, eh?


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## LT1550

....


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## Qwert

I can't imagine how that town lived before Schengen.


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## eomer

International border between France and the Netherlands.
Don't panic: Belgium still exist but this border is in St Martin / St Marteen is Caribeans


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## Verso

^ It's interesting though that it's also an external EU border (although not controlled); I always surprise people when I ask them sth like: how long is the French-Dutch border? And they go like: wtf?


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## x-type

Qwert said:


> I can't imagine how that town lived before Schengen.


and how about SLO-I Nova Gorica/Gorizia while SLovenia was part of communistic Yugoslavia?!?! this is what i call incredible!!:nuts:


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## radi6404

x-type said:


> main border crossing between Serbia and Bulgaria. my mother took it. i don't like pjotographing border crossings because employers there are often screwed up and think that i'm the worst criminal while photographing :dunno:


yeah!


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## ChrisZwolle

It's forbidden in a lot of countries to photograph border stations. Sometimes even trainstations or bridges. But what the heck, Google Earth reveals everything.


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## Qwert

x-type said:


> and how about SLO-I Nova Gorica/Gorizia while SLovenia was part of communistic Yugoslavia?!?! this is what i call incredible!!:nuts:


Were Yugoslavian borders so strictly closed as those in Czechoslovakia? Here many people were even shooted when escaping.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Verso said:


> ^ It's interesting though that it's also an external EU border (although not controlled); I always surprise people when I ask them sth like: how long is the French-Dutch border? And they go like: wtf?


The French side is classified as EU but the Dutch side isn't.

I do thw question: French/Brazil border.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

French Guyana. I don't think that's actually European Union, right? Dutch Antilles aren't EU i think, maybe because the EU Narcotica-rate would be a lot higher then


----------



## Verso

^ The French Guiana _is_ part of the EU (outermost region), as well as all other French overseas departments Guadeloupe, Martinique and Réunion, and also the overseas Collectivity of Saint Martin (until February 22, 2007 it was part of Guadeloupe), which just stayed in the EU. But other French dependent areas aren't.

The Netherlands Antilles aren't in the EU and is to be disbanded on December 15, 2008, when part of them (Sint Maarten and Curaçao) will become associated states within the Kingdom of the Netherlands, whereas the rest of them (Bonaire, Saba and Sint Eustatius) will become a direct part of the Netherlands as special municipalities, and thus also become parts of the EU! So, welcome! 

Sorry for being smart on your own country, but I'm an Intl. Relations student, I had to. 



Qwert said:


> Were Yugoslavian borders so strictly closed as those in Czechoslovakia? Here many people were even shooted when escaping.


Not at all, I don't know why x-type thinks it was so bad.


----------



## x-type

well, borders were not almost closed as in Stalin countries, but anyway it was not as todays borders. and borders were directed by military. frankly - i don't know for western borders, in those years i passed border just once, but it was to Hungary. i was a kid and i remember it was a bit scary and i remember military. and i remember my father's face - he's actually very cool person, but he was not cool then 
it's true that we were allowed to travel to west without limits as Stalin countries.


----------



## Verso

We went to Italy and Austria several times when I was a kid and we'd always cross the border in a matter of seconds. My first time in "Eastern" Europe was only in 1996 (Czech Republic).


----------



## radi6404

After highering the detail level with some program this appreaed on the pic.


----------



## Gag Halfrunt

Qwert said:


> I can't imagine how that town lived before Schengen.


I don't know, but before Schengen there was Benelux:


> The Benelux is an economic union in Western Europe comprising three neighbouring monarchies, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg, which lie in the north western European region between France and Germany. The name is formed from the beginning of each country's name, and was created for the Benelux Customs Union, but is now used in a more generic way.


----------



## Gag Halfrunt

eomer said:


> International border between France and the Netherlands.
> Don't panic: Belgium still exist but this border is in St Martin / St Marteen is Caribeans


That website about borders has more photos.


----------



## y_nigel

Something a little different:
While in South America i took a bus between La Paz, Bolivia and Lima, Peru (32 hours!). 

When the bus reached the border everyone had to get off the bus at the Bolivia side









Then walk across a small bridge (pedestrian only i think?) to the Peru side and enter the small customs office









And finally, catch a different bus from the chaotic bus depot on the Peru side


----------



## uwhuskies

andrewsimons said:


> A couple of situations in Hertog (B) and Nassau (NL)
> 
> In this shop you walk between two different countries.
> The vertical lines onder the flag, left is Belgium the right is Holland
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Supermarket.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The neighbours downstrairs are Dutch, the neighbours upstairs are Belgiums.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The entry for the Dutch and Belgium neighbour
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Policestation. Left Belgium police-logo, the right Dutch police-logo


Interesting photos.

May I inquire regarding how each country regulates the appropriate estate or land taxes (how do taxes get apportioned), and how does the police station handle criminals (where do the major crimes criminals get sent when they are caught for long-term detention?).


----------



## SmarterChild

There is crime in small town belgium/nl ?


----------



## Qwert

Gag Halfrunt said:


> I don't know, but before Schengen there was Benelux:


I know what is Benelux. So different question: How it worked before Benelux?:lol:


----------



## mgk920

Good thing that those two countries are at peace!

:lol:

Mike


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

My wife and I took a 3-day vacation in Victoria, BC. On the way there, we took a ferry from Port Angeles, WA to Victoria, BC. Below are two crappy pictures of what the customs look like upon arrival to Victoria: 



















On the way back, we decided to take a ferry from Sidney, BC to Tsawwassen, BC and then cross the border at Blaine Port of Entry. Below is how the US check point looks like:










Looking back at the Canadian check point:










Welcome to the USA (supposed to be a patriotic banner, I suppose?):










At the end of the trip, I concluded that it is better to pass the customs at the sea port of entry because the waiting time is a lot shorter. It would be even more convenient to cross the border if... there was no border at all between the USA and Canada, but sadly it is not the case. On the contrary, the USA is tightening the admittance rules for entry from Canada hno:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Isn't it an idea to make some kind of a schengen pact between Canada and the United States? Like the free trade in Europe. 

Canada is the only country to the north, and it's not like they belong to the axis of evil


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

As far as I know, there doesn't exist any idea to make a Shengen-like pact between Canada and the USA. Like I said, the USA is tightening the custom procedures for visitors from Canada.


----------



## Verso

What are you complaining? Both countries have 10 million sq km. With crossing border just once, you have 20 million sq km to explore! :lol: That's sth Schengen can never achieve.

Interesting pics, btw. :cheers:


----------



## Escher

*Brazil - Peru Border*

This is the border between the two countries on the cities of Assis Brasil/Brasil and Iñapari/Peru, on the Amazon region.

Brazilian road BR-317 to the border










Customs/Immigrations Brazilian side



















After the customs, 2km more to the border bridge.



















The bridge on the background














































Welcome to Peru! The road then turns into a city street and there isn´t a unified control. You must search on the city for the immigrations and customs offices that are on different adress! :nuts:










The road then goes to Puerto Maldonado through the forest (200km). After that, starts climbing the Andes Range until Cuzco, reaching in some points 4000m above the sea level!! But it´s not asphalted yet, all the road have heavy works going on and will be completed asphalted until 2010.


----------



## Verso

^^ Wow, so you actually went there.  As I thought - good road on the Brazilian side, crappy on the Peruvian. Really strange system of control on the Peruvian side of the border. How many weeks did it take you?


----------



## thun

I have some from my home region (pics not by me, taken from www.allgaeu-humor.de):









^^
Last posibility to buy cheese before leaving Baden-Württemberg to Bavaria. :lol:









^^
German-Austrian border at the Mädelejoch (1970m), Allgäuer Alpen (in the mountains...). Notice the bore. :nuts:


----------



## Billpa

^^ Where in Baden-Württemberg?
I spent a couple of weeks in Schwäbisch Hall many years ago


----------



## thun

Near Isny, in the Allgäu region, thats in the very south (between Lindau and Kempten).


----------



## Verso

@ thun, I thought you were from Thun, Switzerland. :lol:


----------



## PLH

Does anyone here know whether on D/PL main border crossings(Pomellen, Frankfurt/Oder, Forst, Ludwigsdorf) the whole redundant infrastructure will be removed or not?

I' ve found many infos on that, but they were contradictory


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't think so. They all still exist in France, except very new border crossings, and that's only one as far as i know (Calais - Veurne).


----------



## thun

@ Verso: No, my nick derives from my initials. But I have relatives in Thun. Funny coincidence. :lol:


----------



## BND

Border crossing Hegyeshalom/Nickelsdorf on motorway M1/A4 (E60), between Hungary and Austria:


----------



## brisavoine

This is the border between France (left) and Brazil (right). A road bridge is currently under construction over the river (the Oyapock River) and it should open to car traffic in 2010. It will be the first land crossing opened between France and Brazil.










And this is the road leading to the future bridge over the international border.


----------



## PLH

* Frankfurt (Oder) - Świecko D/PL*


----------



## Chris_533976

Did he say "Goodbye Lenin" at the end?


----------



## PLH

^^ Yep


----------



## LT1550

wyqtor said:


> Why don't those roads have proper markings - both sides? The Dutch does have some, but no middle markings - is it one of those "you use the middle both ways but with a tiny speed limit" roads :nuts: ?


As for the German side - those roads without a line in the center are county, sometimes state roads - there is no line because the lanes would be too small than. Passing cars / oncoming traffic have the own responsibility to estimate the lane size.


----------



## TheCat

^^ In my opinion the most important markings on any road are the side (edge) markings, even though unfortunately they are often not present, or are fading away. They are much more important than the middle marking, in my opinion, and can be a major safety factor at night.


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

^^ Well said


----------



## Verso

Italians apparently also still guard their border with Slovenia; yesterday they were "harassing" someone from Belgrade.


----------



## Nikkodemo

What a beautiful thread!!!

I like the national borders crossings!!!

Looks very interesting...forever.


----------



## LoKeY

Verso said:


> Italians apparently also still guard their border with Slovenia; yesterday they were "harassing" someone from Belgrade.


Where did u hear that and where was it, coz on my way home around 4 am i noticed a big Slovenian police stake-out with 2 cars and about half a dozen cops waiting on the main street in my town


----------



## Verso

^ For you?  j/k

I didn't hear it, I saw it when I went back home from Tarvisio through the border crossing Fusine Laghi / Rateče. Nothing serious, just a stopped car from Belgrade right on the border. Btw, I was in Villach for the first time in my life. :banana: Can't believe it, I've probably passed near it on motorway some 40 times, but never actually went to the city. It's much more beautiful and cute than I expected.


----------



## mgk920

Verso said:


> ^ For you?  j/k
> 
> I didn't hear it, I saw it when I went back home from Tarvisio through the border crossing Fusine Laghi / Rateče. Nothing serious, just a stopped car from Belgrade right on the border. Btw, I was in Villach for the first time in my life. :banana: Can't believe it, I've probably passed near it on motorway some 40 times, but never actually went to the city. It's much more beautiful and cute than I expected.


That is often called 'Blue Highway touring' (or something to that effect) here in the USA - using local roads, including the 'old' main highways, that go through the cities and towns instead of blowing by on the interstates and compatible main highways. They are called 'blue' highways because many of the most popular mapping companies use light blue lines to show the more minor local roads. The Disney-Pixar film _Cars_ is based on that theme.

It is a VERY ENJOYABLE thing to do when roadtripping if time is not a major factor.

kay:

Now, back to the borders...

Mike


----------



## Verso

^ Indeed. Especially when your country is more or less criss-crossed by motorways/freeways. It also brings back nice memories from the times there were few motorways around (not very applicable to the US though). But Villach (despite its great location) was an exception, I'd been to all other major cities in the region. :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> ^ Indeed. Especially when your country is more or less criss-crossed by motorways/freeways. It also brings back nice memories from the times there were few motorways around (not very applicable to the US though).


Most Interstates were build in the late 50's and early 60's. So the network is not that old.


----------



## Jeroen669

Edit- double post


----------



## Jeroen669

TheCat said:


> ^^ In my opinion the most important markings on any road are the side (edge) markings, even though unfortunately they are often not present, or are fading away. They are much more important than the middle marking, in my opinion, and can be a major safety factor at night.


Depends on the width, imo. If a road is too narrow for 2 big vehicles (trucks/buses) passing each other on a normal way, I agree with that. Because in that case you have to be more concerned (passing the line) about the quality of the shoulders.
But on usual roads, with at least 3 metres per direction, the middle markings are more important. Especially during night or fog. It ensures you, you don't have to be afraid about drivers in opposite direction (if he just keeps his lane).


----------



## PLH

*Swinoujscie-Ahlbeck PL/D*








































*Budzisko PL/LT*














































Bird flu disinfection:


----------



## Verso

Jeroen669 said:


> Depends on the width, imo. If a road is too narrow for 2 big vehicles (trucks/buses) passing each other on a normal way, I agree with that. Because in that case you have to be more concerned (passing the line) about the quality of the shoulders.
> But on usual roads, with at least 3 metres per direction, the middle markings are more important. Especially during night or fog. It ensures you, you don't have to be afraid about drivers in opposite direction (if he just keeps his lane).


Agreed. Besides, if you're not sure where a road ends, just stick to the middle marking.


----------



## Jeroen669

That border near Swinoujscie is interesting. I always thought there were no cars allowed there.


----------



## x-type

Chriszwolle said:


> And what about the Croatian - Bosnian border? (Plitvice - Bihac for instance), it seems fun to me just to be in that country for a couple of kilometers.


that's border crossing Izačić. i haven't heard about crowds there. mostly northern HR/BIH border crossings can be crowded.



Chriszwolle said:


> Yeah, but back then, the Slovenian - Croatian border wasn't a schengen border


there were problems when Slovenia joined EU, some 2 weeks of addoptation were neccessary and there were crowds. after that - no problems. Slovenians prepared themselves for Schengen as soon as they joined EU so no any changes.

in summer avoid border crossings at fridays, saturdays and sundays because you could wait 3 hours. but during the week, there shouldn't be problems.


----------



## PLH

*Porajów - Hrádek nad Nisou PL/CZ *

Heading to Poland:















































*On the way back to CR:*


----------



## Timon91

Chriszwolle said:


> Yes, very beautiful. The Tatra's are high on my "TO-DO list".


You should definately do that. I heard that you were going to make a trip to Poland/Czech Republic/Slovakia, so you should definately do that. 

Anyway, here's my (small) collection of border crossings. These ones are from a vacation in Poland and Slovakia last summer:
A15/A18 border at Olszyna:








Border of Cieszyn - Cesky Tesin








Over here the border of Czech Republic - Slovakia near Mosty u Jablunkova. Notice that it's a double border, and they use one for the direction of the Czech Republic:








And the other one in the direction of Slovakia








On our way back, the Lysa Polana border, small border station:








And finally the A4/A4 border near the metropolis of Jedrzychowice:









And here, on a rainy afternoon, when I returned from Prague with my class (after a 4-day visit in October 2007), the border between the Czech Republic and Germany (D8/A17, if I'm right):












































Hope you enjoy it!:cheers:


----------



## PLH

Timon Kruijk said:


> the *metropolis* of Jedrzychowice


Joker


----------



## Timon91

^^Yeah, I don't think this is normal:

















Why Jedrzychowice *and* Zgorzelec on the same sign?

Anyway, I had a question about border crossings. When I go to Germany, I of course don't have to show my ID or something. Still, I thought that lorries had to stop at those border crossings. I never see trucks stop there though. From a friend in Poland I heard that trucks *do* have to stop at the German-Polish border. Can anyone explain that to me?


----------



## PLH

Timon Kruijk said:


> Why Jedrzychowice *and* Zgorzelec on the same sign?


And why not? This road leads to both cities(well, ok not exactly to Zgorzelec but very closo to it)



Timon Kruijk said:


> Anyway, I had a question about border crossings. When I go to Germany, I of course don't have to show my ID or something. Still, I thought that lorries had to stop at those border crossings. I never see trucks stop there though. From a friend in Poland I heard that trucks *do* have to stop at the German-Polish border. Can anyone explain that to me?


He must be selling you crap 

There is absolutely *NO* stopping at borders at all, even for trucs


----------



## eomer

Slovenian borders are interesting.
In the past:
- there were controls at Italian, Austrian and Hugarian borders
- there were no control at Croatian border

Since the end of Yougoslavia and the entry of Shengen's space:
- there are no controls any longer at Italian, Austrian and Hugarian borders
- there are now controls at Croatian border: this is Shengen's border.

A bit strange no ? 
In the futur, I hope that Croatia-Slovenia border will be open again: Croatia desserve to join Shengen quickly even without joining EU.
Croatia should have join EU with Romania and Bulgaria but it's an other story.


----------



## Timon91

PLH said:


> And why not? This road leads to both cities(well, ok not exactly to Zgorzelec but very closo to it)


That may be true, but Jedrzychowice is only a small village (there is nothing wrong with Zgorzelec), so why both towns, and not only Zgorzelec?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

eomer said:


> Croatia should have join EU with Romania and Bulgaria but it's an other story.


Yeah, Croatia is more developed than RO and BG. Yet, it looks to me this is a "war criminal" problem, they only can join EU if they bring some war criminals to justice, like former army commanders. 

Well, i hope Croatia joins EU soon.


----------



## PLH

Timon Kruijk said:


> That may be true, but Jedrzychowice is only a small village (there is nothing wrong with Zgorzelec), so why both towns, and not only Zgorzelec?


Because this border crossing is/was called Jedrzychowice/Ludwigsdorf and it is located near Jędzychowice, which is indeed very small


----------



## ChrisZwolle

But do you think foreigners know the names of border crossings? They usually looking for larger cities along the route. So Dresden, Zgorzelec or Berlin, but not Jedrzychowice, which is so small, it does not appear on most maps.


----------



## Timon91

PLH said:


> Because this border crossing is/was called Jedrzychowice/Ludwigsdorf and it is located near Jędzychowice, which is indeed very small


I'm aware of that. Still, I don't think it is necessary to put such small villages on highway signs (I know it comes from earlier times, when it was very handy for lorry drivers to know how far the border would be). Still, with Schengen, they can remove it and put Dresden on the signs. 

About borders: does anyone have an idea when Romania and Bulgaria will join schengen?


----------



## PLH

Chriszwolle said:


> But do you think foreigners know the names of border crossings? They usually looking for larger cities along the route. So Dresden, Zgorzelec or Berlin, but not Jedrzychowice, which is so small, it does not appear on most maps.





Timon Kruijk said:


> I'm aware of that. Still, I don't think it is necessary to put such small villages on highway signs (I know it comes from earlier times, when it was very handy for lorry drivers to know how far the border would be). Still, with Schengen, they can remove it and put Dresden on the signs.



I entirely agree with you, but we cannot help it


----------



## delfin_pl

*Porajów/Zittau PL/D*

by PLH


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

I like borders that run through the cities. Although the USA and Canada have border checkpoints, the cities of Stanstead, QB and Derby Line, VT still have some unguarded crossings such as this:









Photo by New York Times


----------



## geogregor

Alex Von Königsberg said:


> I like borders that run through the cities. Although the USA and Canada have border checkpoints, the cities of Stanstead, QB and Derby Line, VT still have some unguarded crossings such as this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photo by New York Times


When I was driving from NY state to Quebeck Canadian immigration was very serious and asking a lot of question while checking my visa.
Can you just walk cross the border on picture above? No asking question, no control? 
Weard in our paranoid times when everyone is obsessed with terrorism


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

^^ Well, that was the point of the article in New York Times - even in our paranoid post-911 times, there are still places like this. So, yes it is rather an exception to the rule. To answer your question, you can _physically_ walk from Vermont to Quebec without any obstacles, but of course it would be illegal  

There is a Zero Avenue in western B.C. near Vancouver that runs 1 metre from the American border, so if your car breaks down and you have to pull over, _de facto_ you would be illegally crossing into the USA.


----------



## TheCat

^^ I've always wondered about this. The Canada-US border is controlled at the official crossing points, like the roads, but there is no fence or anything of the sort. In like 99% of the border, at the absence of natural obstacles such as rivers, can't one just walk through the "imaginary line"? And if that is so, then what is the point of such strict controls? I'm sure that someone wanting to cross the border illegally, especially with the intent of causing harm, will do just that instead of taking the highway


----------



## mgk920

TheCat said:


> ^^ I've always wondered about this. The Canada-US border is controlled at the official crossing points, like the roads, but there is no fence or anything of the sort. In like 99% of the border, at the absence of natural obstacles such as rivers, can't one just walk through the "imaginary line"? And if that is so, then what is the point of such strict controls? I'm sure that someone wanting to cross the border illegally, especially with the intent of causing harm, will do just that instead of taking the highway


Along a lot of that 'uncontrolled' border, the locals keep a pretty good watch over things and they don't hesitate to call the Customs guys when things are amiss.

Mike


----------



## TheCat

^^ Possibly, but I'm somewhat skeptical of this. It may work in certain situations, but the border is extremely long, and not all of it is populated. Not that it's too problematic anyway, since illegal immigration is not an issue here.


----------



## mgk920

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> :eek2::eek2::eek2: *Wow, I didn´t know that Canada is going metric!!! Welcome to the civilized world!*
> *So the axis-of-imperial-system-using-countries consists now only of Liberia, Myanmar and the USA...*


Actually that is an 'old wives' tale'. Those other two countries are essentially 100% metric. OTOH, the UK still uses miles on its highway signage (speed limits, distances, etc).

From what I am aware of, the USA is the only country left where fuel is not priced in liters, though.

Mike


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

I am late as always


----------



## TheCat

Wow, three messages at the exact same time  And mine was lost lol.


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> :eek2::eek2::eek2: *Wow, I didn´t know that Canada is going metric!!! Welcome to the civilized world!*
> *So the axis-of-imperial-system-using-countries consists now only of Liberia, Myanmar and the USA...*


Eh... Dude, you are like... 30 years late :lol: Unless you are joking, of course. But since they still have those signs, some southern neighbours are probably not aware of this change.


----------



## Timon91

^^I heard of the same problem in Northern Ireland/Ireland. Ireland went metric a few years ago, and now many Northern Irish are caught speeding in Ireland.......


----------



## Verso

rheintram said:


> Border between Austria (Lustenau) and Switzerland (Au)


Great border crossing. Unlike by its northern counterpart, they aren't so allergic to smuggling salami.


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

Timon Kruijk said:


> ^^I heard of the same problem in Northern Ireland/Ireland. Ireland went metric a few years ago, and now many Northern Irish are caught speeding in Ireland.......


I guess that it why both Canada and Ireland include "km/h" on their speed limit signs:








..


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

> Eh... Dude, you are like... 30 years late Unless you are joking, of course. But since they still have those signs, some southern neighbours are probably not aware of this change.


Ooops, I´m afraid I´m not joking. :shifty: I apologize for my ignorance. 

It´s just so strange to see metric signs on pics from North America (Canada and USA). :nuts:



> From what I am aware of, the USA is the only country left where fuel is not priced in liters, though.


I think this makes sense because you Americans drive cars like HUMMER or Lincoln Navigator and gallons help keep numbers small while refueling these monsters.


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

By the way, in the USA anyone can officially sell any kind of products in metric system. When the USA attempted to go metric in the 70s, some benzine stations started selling fuel in litres. Some Americans bought that extremely "cheap" fuel and later became very angry at those benzine station owners because apparently they didn't realise that the price was given per litre, not per gallon :lol: Since then, the fuel went back to gallons.

It's amazing to me, though, how someone can think that the price of fuel can drop 75% overnight.


----------



## ADCS

Alex Von Königsberg said:


> By the way, in the USA anyone can officially sell any kind of products in metric system. When the USA attempted to go metric in the 70s, some benzine stations started selling fuel in litres. Some Americans bought that extremely "cheap" fuel and later became very angry at those benzine station owners because apparently they didn't realise that the price was given per litre, not per gallon :lol: Since then, the fuel went back to gallons.
> 
> It's amazing to me, though, how someone can think that the price of fuel can drop 75% overnight.


One thing about the American character which is really funny is the propensity to be able to sell an American ANYTHING as long as they think they are saving money. (I'd say especially on gasoline).

Along with this, gas prices were as recently as 15 years prior to that time only about $.25/gal, so especially to the older population, it wasn't as outlandish as it may seem now. It would be like seeing gas for $1.00/l, people can remember prices being that low per gallon recently, so the less perceptive among us would not have made the connection until they saw the $60 bill.


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

Yes, when I visited the USA first time in 1999, 87 petrol costed about 0.98 per gallon. Now, it would cost a bit cheaper but per litre  Still, I don't know how someone can be that mistaken.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Talking about fuel prices, once an automatic petrol station in Finland was wrong by a comma so 1 litre of petrol cost 10 times less than normally.


----------



## PLH

Sorry for changing topic, but this in Border crosings thread nevertheless 

Does anyone here have links to photos from Polish - German border after Schengen and/or know anything what is going to be rebuild over there?

Thanks in advance


----------



## Timon91

^^I don't know anything about the borders now. I have seen a few pics of those, in SSC. Furthermore, I heard somewhere that Austria is leaving the border stations until the EURO 2008 is over. They want some control over the people entering the country. After that they will probably be demolished.


----------



## PLH

*Świnoujście - Ahlbeck PL/D*

Roof was removed, baracks will be soon































Comapere it with this:


----------



## Timon91

^^Not a that big difference actually. Just the small roof


----------



## PLH

^^
"One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind"


----------



## Timon91

That's true. Isn't it that Swinoujscie was forbidden for cars when Poland was not yet EU?


----------



## PLH

^^ Yep

Only buses and taxis


----------



## urbanfan89

^^^ You know who else wanted to freely travel between Germany and Poland?


----------



## PLH

^^ ????


----------



## ChrisZwolle

PLH said:


> ^^ ????


He thought he was being funny by referring to A. Hitler.


----------



## ADCS

Chriszwolle said:


> He thought he was being funny by referring to A. Hitler.


On many websites (e.g. Fark.com), it's become a bit of a cliché to say "you know who else wanted (insert vague Nazi-era reference here)". It is an evolution of "Godwin's law", that is, as the length of a thread approaches infinity, the probability of something being compared to Hitler inevitably approaches one.


----------



## mgk920

PLH said:


> *Świnoujście - Ahlbeck PL/D*
> 
> Roof was removed, baracks will be soon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comapere it with this:


See:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.922399,14.21633&spn=0.003285,0.007296&t=k&z=17
for an aerial image of this crossing. The actual border is by the mowed strip and the barracks buildings are in Germany.

(sorry for the cloud :lol: )

Mike


----------



## PLH

*PL/CZ Cieszyn - Boguszowice


all pics by Mr X*





























Too bad the viaduct is 1x3









Czechs shoud have removed these concrete barriers long time ago:no: 




























*CZ/A Znojmo*

































































*A/D Salzburg*



















Former border - now rest area


















entering to Austria once again:



















*D/PL Lugwigsdorf/Jędrzychowice*














































Entering to Poland:


















A4 construction site


----------



## Verso

PLH said:


>


I wonder if they suggest driving to Turkey and Greece over Graz (instead of Villach, which is shorter), or they just put it randomly. Italy lies correctly, for example (as well as Germany, but it's logical to put it by München). Slovenia is in both directions.


----------



## Ron2K

Looks like the Znojmo border hasn't changed at all since I went through it in July 2002.


----------



## Timon91

PLH said:


> *PL/CZ Cieszyn - Boguszowice
> *


This was last summer:









btw: does anyone have pics of the BAB15/A18 border near Olszyna? (D-PL)


----------



## Timon91

^^Btw: when I crossed this border, they didn't want to see our passports, we could just drive on. They must have thought that we were checked when entering Poland, so that it would be ok.


----------



## PLH

^^ Actually when You didn't look "potentially dangerous" )) they just let You go
I had there the same situation last summer


----------



## vlker

> Looks like the Znojmo border hasn't changed at all since I went through it in July 2002.


There is projected extension to 2x2 and new bypass of Znojmo, so now it's just a temporary layout of border crossing. 
http://dalnice-silnice.cz/mapy/znojmo.pdf


----------



## Timon91

PLH said:


> ^^ Actually when You didn't look "potentially danderous" )) they just let You go
> I had there the same situation last summer


Well, I've had the same with the Slovak-Polish border and the Polish-German border, would that be the same?

Edit: at the Polish-German border I was talking about (Jedrzychowice), the custom agents scanned every German and Polish passport, which was quite time consuming. On the other side, towards Poland, there were exceptionally long traffic jams for a EU border.


----------



## PLH

Timon Kruijk said:


> does anyone have pics of the BAB15/A18 border near Olszyna? (D-PL)












Now all cars drive as trucs previosely did, the direct crossing is closed

It looks as if they were restoring the Autobahn there


----------



## Timon91

^^Thanks!


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> I wonder if they suggest driving to Turkey and Greece over Graz (instead of Villach, which is shorter), or they just put it randomly. Italy lies correctly, for example (as well as Germany, but it's logical to put it by München). Slovenia is in both directions.


i think it doesn't have anything with Graz, but with A10


----------



## Verso

It looks confusing though. Would be better to sort it out differently.


----------



## mgk920

PLH said:


> Now all cars drive as trucs previosely did, the direct crossing is closed
> 
> It looks as if they were restoring the Autobahn there


What is that under construction on either side of that checkpoint? It looks like a huge truck/lorry inspection/rest area and from the Google aerial images, a similar one is being built on the eastbound side (for trucks/lorries entering Poland). Are those just big truck stops being built as part of converting that (former) checkpoint into a pair of service plazas?

Mike


----------



## PLH

mgk920 said:


> What is that under construction on either side of that checkpoint? It looks like a huge truck/lorry inspection/rest area


It looks af it it were just a truck parking



mgk920 said:


> part of converting that (former) checkpoint into a pair of service plazas?


I know only that Ludwigsdorf(D/PL) and Boguszowice(PL/CZ) will be rebuilt into rest areas, but this one probably too


----------



## Timon91

^^As far as I know, most former Dutch-German border stations have been transformed into rest areas. Before the Euro, there used to be lots of exchange places over there. Nowadays they are gone, of course. Since Poland won't have the Euro until 2011 (I'm not sure, is there an exact date?), those border stations can still serve as an Euro-Zloty exchange.


----------



## PLH

^^ There is no stated date for Euro introduction in Poland, but it is no problem, as even now in border petrol stations (PL/D) you can pay both in zlotys and euros


----------



## mojaBL

^^it was cloudy day


----------



## DanielFigFoz

pilotos said:


> Nah we have a motorway starting after the customs, while they have a simple 2-way road
> Plus if you check google-earth you ll notice the darker color of the Greek side :lol:


I've never heard of a 1 way motorway.


----------



## Jünyus Brütüs

pilotos said:


> Nah we have a motorway starting after the customs, while they have a simple 2-way road
> Plus if you check google-earth you ll notice the darker color of the Greek side :lol:


No the darker side is Turkish side Anyway it's an old viaduct...

We have Motorway(Otoyol) through Bulgaria that's because geographically Bulgarian border connects TEM Motorway through Western Europe. So main border is Turkish-Bulgarian border for Turkey. But i am not sure what kind of road do we have through Greece... probably a simple road, but quality asphalt


----------



## Verso

^ Turkey has roads through Bulgaria and Greece? :shifty: You mean _to_ Bulgaria and Greece. 



DanielFigFoz said:


> I've never heard of a 1 way motorway.


There are in Australia, Brazil...


----------



## Chris_533976

Technically about one mile of the M6 in Ireland is 1-way, only because due to motorway building works and junction layout, only one direction of route '6' is under motorway classification!

But that will change soon.


----------



## pilotos

Kafkas said:


> I've never heard of a 1 way motorway.


Me neither, nor did i mentioned such a thing, when i am saying 2-way road, i mean a simple road without division barriers etc, 1 lane each side.



DanielFigFoz said:


> No the darker side is Turkish side Anyway it's an old viaduct...
> 
> We have Motorway(Otoyol) through Bulgaria that's because geographically Bulgarian border connects TEM Motorway through Western Europe. So main border is Turkish-Bulgarian border for Turkey. But i am not sure what kind of road do we have through Greece... probably a simple road, but quality asphalt


Yes i know that, but Turkey should build a motorway to continue the Egnatia, and the traffic load between our countries is quite big nowadays, so they should upgrade the road if you ask me, and i believe that there are plans to do so.

Ah well sorry for the off topic anyway


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Charleroi R9 is an example of a one way motorway.


----------



## Verso

^^ With 60-km/h speed limit.


----------



## Timon91

^^Due to the quality of Belgian roads you can't ride any faster


----------



## PLH

*A18/A15
Olszyna/Forst PL/D* 




























And do not ask me why it hasn't been opened yet:bash:


----------



## Timon91

^^Will it be demolished since there is no passport control anymore?
Btw: the last 2 pics aren't visible.


----------



## PLH

^^ Well, it should be - but when will it happen? Probably with the reconstruction of A18 highway

I can see all three pics


----------



## Timon91

I can see them now too, thanks.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Verso said:


> ^ Turkey has roads through Bulgaria and Greece? :shifty: You mean _to_ Bulgaria and Greece.
> 
> There are in Australia, Brazil...


What? Where you can drive only in one direction?


----------



## Verso

^^ Yes. Usually they change directions according to the traffic - in the morning towards cities, in the afternoon away from cities. But the inner Charleroi ring in Belgium is one-way always in the same direction, it's a ring anyway; however that's more of a slow expressway (60 km/h).


----------



## Escher

DanielFigFoz said:


> What? Where you can drive only in one direction?


For years, Imigrantes motorway, linking São Paulo to Santos, on the coast, had only one direction and was reversible on a 15km stretch on the mountains. It was auxiliary of Anchieta highway, that runs parallel but this one has an older design. Since 2002, a new road was built and now is fully motorway on both directions.


----------



## Jünyus Brütüs

pilotos said:


> Me neither, nor did i mentioned such a thing, when i am saying 2-way road, i mean a simple road without division barriers etc, 1 lane each side.


lol I did not say anything like that, you quoted wrong





pilotos said:


> Yes i know that, but Turkey should build a motorway to continue the Egnatia, and the traffic load between our countries is quite big nowadays, so they should upgrade the road if you ask me, and i believe that there are plans to do so.
> 
> Ah well sorry for the off topic anyway


Ok this is mine

I agree we need motorway between two countries, but I dont see any development for future at least in Turkey, I guess TEM Motorway is enough that's because we have real traffic load from Bulgarian side. But my dream is the High Speed Railway between Turkey and Greece. I cant imagine the tourist potential for one day trips between two countries.

and me sorry too


----------



## Escher

*Argentina-Brazil (San Tomé - São Borja)*

Junction to the bridge on Argentina (PTE INTERNACIONAL)










Entering the Unified Custom Center. Argentinean and Brazilian authorities share the complex.




























Entering the bridge, leaving Argentina.



















The bridge


----------



## Timon91

Not very busy, though. How long does it take to cross this border by car?


----------



## Escher

^^
It's immediately if you are a Mercosul citizen (Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay) or Chilean. You must only show ID and car documents. Cargo has some bureaucracy but it doesn't take long either.


----------



## x-type

anyway, i think that even US - MEX is child's play comparing to entrances to Belarus or Russia with car. Ukraine is sometimes complicated, sometimes not at all


----------



## elgoyo

x-type said:


> anyway, i think that even US - MEX is child's play comparing to entrances to Belarus or Russia with car. Ukraine is sometimes complicated, sometimes not at all


Really? ive never heard about Rusia-Belarus, is the waiting long and visa control tight???


----------



## x-type

actually, i meant about enterin Belarus or Russia (so even at Poland-Belarus border). they often ask for impossible papers. birocracy in its full performance  i remember one trip story about guy who went to Belarus on motorbike, he spent 7 hrs at border, Belarussians who were entering into country have been bagging policmen to let himn in, but they asked for bloody paper and he couldn't do anything. and they were not hurrying at all to make that paper for him


----------



## Timon91

^^Russia-Belarus crossing seems to be not difficult at all (from what I've heard)


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

^^ There is hardly any control at all between Russia and Belarus. Entering Russia or Ukraine from Poland or Slovakia (speaking from pre-Shenghen experience) may take up to several hours, but generally it is anywhere from 1 to 3 hours depending on the time of the day. Bureaucracy is higher in post-Soviet countries, so upon crossing the border they require a bunch of documents including but not limited to Passport, car registration, driving license, and custom forms. 

Crossing Canada-USA border required only Green Cards and Passports, but it also takes anywhere between 30 min to 1 hour because of the traffic and tight control. Crossing into Canada is always faster because Canadians are apparently not paranoid about their national security.


----------



## Timon91

^^I've crossed the US-Canadian border several times over land (3 times, last time in 2003), and what I remember of it (not a lot) is that the border guards where quite relaxed and that it didn't take a lot of time. Ok, it was a tiny crossing in east Washington state, but they can still be difficult.
Btw: there is some nice travel report from some dutch people on the internet. They went to St. Petersburg by car, and back (2005). Their site, which is in dutch, is www.wijoptweb.nl It gives a nice discription of the border crossing near Narva (Estonia-Russia) and their way back into Finland.


----------



## Verso

^ Unfortunately, this is the only border crossing they made a photo of (Germany/Poland):


----------



## Timon91

They have one of the Polish-Lithuanian border and that's it. But there is a very detailed description of the Estonian-Russian border crossing (in dutch).


----------



## Verso

^ Then this must be the border crossing between Poland and Lithuania:


----------



## Timon91

Yes


----------



## Dan

elgoyo said:


> Really? ive never heard about Rusia-Belarus, is the waiting long and visa control tight???


Finland-Russia takes you several hours. Trucks can wait for days and there are queues going back dozens of km.


----------



## x-type

i think that the largest problem at entering Russia or Belarus is the fact that you must buy their insurance and some kinds od ata carneets which make them sure that you'll not sell your property in their country. of course, beside visas and other stuff


----------



## pmaciej7

Harrachov - Jakuszyce, CZ-PL.


----------



## PLH

Ladies and Gentlemen, I have the honour to present the first fully liquidated border of the Republic of Poland

*PL/D Świnoujście/Ahlbeck*































in the meantime german sleuth car drove by...










...and customs officials started to check those wielding too many bags 





























:cheers:

same place:


----------



## pmaciej7

^^ Important thing is, that this crossing in pre-Schengen times was only for pedestrians/cyclists. For drivers distance from Ahlbeck to Świnoujście was ~220 km. Like this:


----------



## Timon91

Great pics! :cheers:


----------



## Manchester Planner

The border between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland (which is the only international land border for either country) isn't really identifiable, other than changes in the road markings and signage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland-United_Kingdom_border#Identifying_the_Border

You have never had to show your passport or such at this border, as the UK and the ROI are both part of the Common Travel Area, which covers the British Isles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area


----------



## Timon91

^^I almost crossed it once (to get petrol in Ireland), but at last we decided we didn't really have to. A pity, because it isn't a border you hear a lot from.


----------



## Chris_533976

Sometimes they do do the odd check, especially on the trains. People are asked to produce ID, despite the fact that in neither the Republic or the North do you have to have ID with you at any time. So its a bit of a legal oddity.

With such an open border tho, you get some weirdness, like a Chinese woman who was deported because she tried to get the bus to Dublin Airport to fly home. She didnt have a visa for the Republic so she was sent back to the north!


----------



## ardmacha

> A pity, because it isn't a border you hear a lot from.


Ireland is also one of the few remaining examples, perhaps Cyprus is the other one, with a border *inside* a country. Given the changes elsewhere in Europe it is odd that this common travel area is much less satisfactory than Schengen for non EU citizens, as there is no common visa, as the previous example of the Chinese lady indicated. 

This is one view (from Sabre website) the sign with miles in the foreground is in Northern Ireland, this is an odd sign as it has only the ROI road number. The speed limit sign is the border and the sign behind that has the distances in Km follwed by a "speed limit in Km per Hour sign" 










On small roads there is usually no marking of any sort, but the conversion of the Republic of Ireland to Km speed limits about 3 years ago meant that some speed limit signs appeared when travelling southwards.


----------



## gugasounds

Mexico - U.S border.
Matamoros - Brownsville:

leaving mexico:


















International bridge:


















Welcome to the U.S:


----------



## Verso

PLH said:


> I wonder if you have recent pics of following border crossings:
> 
> 
> SLO/HR 111/B8 near Portoroż
> SLO/A A1 Spielfeld
> Karawankentunnel
> SLO/I Trieste - Koper E 751
> ?


There's still all that stuff at the border crossings, if that's what you meant. Some of their pix (prior to Schengen) can be found in the SLO thread.



Cicerón said:


> Spain/France border. Somport tunnel.
> 
> http://www.dailymotion.com/relevanc...4o8e_traversee-espagnefrance-par-le-tunn_auto


Great video! But I'll watch all of it tomorrow.


----------



## P.C.Dolabella

PLH said:


> I wonder if you have recent pics of following border crossings:
> 
> 
> SLO/HR 111/B8 near Portoroż
> SLO/A A1 Spielfeld
> Karawankentunnel
> SLO/I Trieste - Koper E 751
> ?


Spielfeld








Slovenian 









Austrian


----------



## P.C.Dolabella

*Metković (HR-BiH) border cross*

Main southern entrance from Bosnia and Hercegovina to Croatia (Mostar - Dubrovnik road)


----------



## PLH

Verso said:


> There's still all that stuff at the border crossings, if that's what you meant. Some of their pix (prior to Schengen) can be found in the SLO thread.


But here in H&A or in their subforum?



P.C.Dolabella said:


> Spielfeld


Thanks!


----------



## x-type

P.C.Dolabella said:


> Austrian


 they have ruined the kindergarten at Spielfeld


----------



## Verso

For PLH:

Karavanke (Slovenia-Austria):









Sečovlje/Sicciole, near Portorož (Slovenia-Croatia):









Škofije, north of Koper (Slovenia-Italy):


----------



## PLH

^^ Thanks, the last one is now almost fully demolished, isn't it?


----------



## Verso

^ I think so, yes..


----------



## P.C.Dolabella

*Gradiška - One of three main northern entrence to Bosnia and Hercegovina*

Stara Gradiška border cross on Croatian side is outside town but on the other side of the Sava river bridge, Bosnian border cross is in the narrow street :nuts:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Interesting, the border posts are being demolished, while on the Spain-Portugal border they are still standing there idle since 1993(i think its 1993, come times in the 90's anyway.)


----------



## Timon91

This crossing (especially the Bosnian side) seems very chaotic to me. Not as ordened as the German-Polish border before Schengen.


----------



## pmaciej7

Mescherin (D) --> Gryfino (PL)









































































Gryfino --> Mescherin


----------



## Timon91

It seems one of the most rural crossings between D/PL to me. When looking at GE you can get a nice view of this crossing too.


----------



## x-type

Timon Kruijk said:


> This crossing (especially the Bosnian side) seems very chaotic to me. Not as ordened as the German-Polish border before Schengen.


uf, you should see it for real. Bosnian side has limited space because it is in the city which is at that side of river. so as soon as you come off from the bridge, you come to border crossing. around are houses and road fom bridge till border crossing is surrounded by wire net. as it is one of the most important HR/BIH border crossings, line of trucks waiting to cross the border goes through whole city. it is upleasantly scene and i hope there will be new border crossing soon because this is quite unacceptable.


----------



## Skyland

*2 border crossings Israel-Jordan*

*Israel-Jordan in 8/2007 (at Eilat/Aqaba) - almost deserted:*

Israeli side:


















Jordan side:


















*Israel-Jordan 8/2007 (Jordan Valley border in the North)*
Jordan river:


















view from Israel to Jordan:


----------



## BND

*Border crossing Bozsok (H) - Rechnitz (A)*

This small border crossing between Bozsok, Hungary and Rechnitz, Austria was opened in 1991. It was open daily between 6 and 22 hours. Only Hungarian and Austrian (from 1995, all EU citizens too) were allowed to cross here. The checkpoint lost its job on the 21st December 2007, when Hungary joined the Schengen-zone.

View from Hungary:









View from Austria:









This is Austria:









Welcome to Austria:









The border-stone:









Welcome to Hungary:









The border-line itself is between the two columns, with bushes on the Hungarian and a horse-riding path and sunflowers in Austria:









20 years ago it would have been impossible for me to walk up and down here, since the iron-curtain still existed. As the matter of fact, the real iron curtain was a few hundred meters back on the Hungarian side (with fences, outposts and gravel lane...), but now there's no trace of it fortunately 

:cheers:


----------



## Verso

^^ Cute little (former) border crossing. 


The border crossing between Egypt and Sudan on the coastal "highway". When a country can't even pave major roads, you know it's dirt poor:









Moving south, to the border crossing between Sudan and Eritrea on the same coastal "highway". Road? :dunno:









Is there any road at all between northwestern and southeastern Eritrea (except through Ethiopia)? Anyway, Djibouti-Somalia:









Does anyone have any idea what this might be (sorry, no border crossing)? It looks like a crossing over a dry river. It's located on the road north of Port Sudan, there are several of them:









No border crossing either, but finally a nice road in Sudan (between Khartoum and Port Sudan):








http://www.panoramio.com/photo/3157979


----------



## urbanfan89

Verso said:


> No border crossing either, but finally a nice road in Sudan (between Khartoum and Port Sudan):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/3157979


That road is courtesy of the Bin Laden Construction Company.


----------



## Verso

^ Oh well, then at least he's good for something.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ The Bin Laden industries are huge. Not all branches are related with the wellknown terrorist.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Found on the Internet.

The main Portugal/Spain Border crossing (Vilar Formoso/Fuentes de Oñoro):










Vila Verde de Raia/Feces de Abaixo lol:


----------



## Dan

Why is the 50 speed limit on the Austrian sign not centered? Wow that bothers me, :lol:


----------



## Verso

^ Probably b/c they usually add "km" (kilometers (per hour)) to the right, but for some reason they erased it here.


----------



## Gag Halfrunt

Chriszwolle said:


> ^^ The Bin Laden industries are huge. Not all branches are related with the wellknown terrorist.


Yes, but Osama bin Laden was involved in building roads in Sudan:


> Bin Laden also invested in business ventures, such as al-Hajira, a construction company that built roads throughout Sudan, and Wadi al-Aqiq, an agricultural corporation that farmed hundreds of thousands of acres of sorghum, gum Arabic, sesame and sunflowers in Sudan's central Gezira province. Bin Laden's operations in Sudan were protected by the powerful Sudanese NIF government figure Hassan al Turabi, but were not profitable. While in Sudan, bin Laden married one of Turabi's nieces.


----------



## Palance

A picture of the border between the Netherlands (N863) and Germany (Nieuw-Schoonebeek (NL) - Twist (D)).


----------



## Timon91

Tomorrow I hope to make some pictures of the USA-Canada border.


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

^^ Are you here on vacation?  Also, describe how the crossing is like for EU citizens.


----------



## Verso

^ Different for different members' citizens. Almost all ex-commie EU members' citizens need visa.


----------



## Timon91

^^That's right. They should change that policy, since most is EU now. 
@Alex: yes :cheers:


----------



## eucitizen

Hi.

Some days ago I listened to the radio that the austrian minister of interior declared that the criminality decreased of 6% in Austria, since the Schengen´s enlargement. So eventually the fears of no border controls were not confirmed.


----------



## Mateusz

Non-visa traffic for Polish ! I want to go to USA for trip without visa


----------



## khoojyh

which border crossing is the most busy in the world.???


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ San Diego - Tijuana I guess.


----------



## gugasounds

Chriszwolle said:


> ^^ San Diego - Tijuana I guess.


Well, there´s also the Laredo - New Laredo border that has a lot of movement 24/7.


----------



## DELCROID

This is the *Brazil-Venezuela *border crossing at *Pacaraima (Roraima State, Brazil)* and *Santa Elena de Üairen (Bolivar State, Venezuela). *The photos follow a south to north sequence along the brazilian *BR-174 *highway and into Venezuela along the *Troncal 10 *road. It´s the only road link between the two countries:





















The brazilian side:












The BR-174 as one travels from the city of Boa Vista towards the brazilian border town of Pacaraima (also known as Pakaraima or La Linea). 




















An ant-eater crossing the road:



































Pacaraima (La Linea):







This photo was taken from the venezuelan side, the white dots are border markers:





































































































Brazilian Customs:












And now, towards the border line:
















































The "real" border line - the ending of the BR-174 and the beginning of the Troncal 10. The photo was taken from the venezuelan side:









The venezuelan side:






Venezuelan Customs:






































Brazilian trucks:













































































































































































Santa Elena de Üairen was founded during the 1920´s. The town is settled mainly by gold and diamond miners and traders:

















































































































Santa Elena de Üairen recently became a duty-free zone and now new settlers are coming to town:








The new tourist international airport facilities (u/c) will open at the end of the year. Only small and medium size aircrafts will be allowed at SVSE as the town will be the gateway to the southern parts of Canaima National Park.























Bush pilots at Canaima National Park:










The Troncal 10 highway going north:









































































































(pd: images are from the web)


----------



## Verso

^^ Thanks for posting; very interesting, but I thought this border crossing was in jungle; it's savanna apparently. It's also the fastest road link between Brazil and Colombia, right?



DELCROID said:


>


What's the thing with "polar"?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ That sign's a leftover from before the global warning


----------



## DELCROID

Verso said:


> ^^ Thanks for posting; very interesting, but I thought this border crossing was in jungle; it's savanna apparently.



Thats right, it´s mostly savanna because of the altitude which is around 1000 mts above sea level. There is some jungle too but mixed with the savannna. This is what the area looks like:










Roraima Tepui close to Santa Elena de Üairen:










































Aponwao Falls (also known as Chinak Meru) on the Troncal 10:




















Kama Meru Falls on the Troncal 10 ("meru" means falls):















4x4 urbanite touring clubs on dirt roads:









































Bush pilots:
































> It's also the fastest road link between Brazil and Colombia, right?



Yes, but even then one has to travel through most of Venezuela for some 2000 Kms.. That is from Santa Elena de Üairen to the San Antonio del Tachira (VE) - Cucuta (CO) crossing. There is no direct road link between Colombia and Brazil that I know of. Only river transport along the Amazon at Leticia port (CO).





Btw. passports and visas are no longer required for south american nationals to travel among the different countries. Only national identity cards are needed.




> What's the thing with "polar"?


Beer! :booze:


----------



## Timon91

Alex Von Königsberg said:


> ^^ Are you here on vacation?  Also, describe how the crossing is like for EU citizens.


The crossing I used is a very remote one. It only took me and my parents 2 minutes to answer the questions the border guard asked. Then she stamped our passports and we could drive on. I can't tell more now since the connection here is very slow.


----------



## Mateusz

Also border crossing between Poland and Czech Republic (Jakuszyce/Harrachov) was dismantled


----------



## dubart

go_leafs_go02 said:


> thanks for the great laugh..haha..bet alot of ppl slowed down to see what the heck Ontario was..and what new russian country was coming into being..
> 
> Even the license plate size difference must be bizarre to see
> 
> wonder what it cost to ship that over..and it's a blinking sunfire..they're like as common a car as you'll find over around here.


 Not unusual in Croatia to see a car with US or Canada plates. My neighbour has Ontario plates... I've seen Australian and NZ plates too! :banana:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

How come? Military? I can't remember seeing US/Canadian plates in the Netherlands. perhaps around embassies or in Germany near US Military bases.


----------



## RipleyLV

3 days ago in Poland near Minsk Maz. I saw an US license plate from New York!


----------



## Timon91

In Baambrugge, just south of my hometown, I've once seen a California license plate. But we are getting offtopic....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Baambrugge? Even I have never heard of that!


----------



## Timon91

^^I always call it the ghetto of Abcoude


----------



## RipleyLV

Timon91 said:


> But we are getting offtopic....


Naah...


----------



## Escher

About a month ago there was a Czech motorhome at the beach in front of my home! There´s a Land Rover with NZ plates in the marina I have a boat, it´s parked almost a year there, maybe abandoned...:nuts:


----------



## RipleyLV

I remember that 5 years ago in Poland (again ), I was driving from German/Polish border Świecko near Świebodzin, I saw two trucks from Iran. :nuts: My first though of their cargo were bombs! :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Not all Iranian trucks are bad guys 

I once saw 2 Mongolian trucks at the border with NL/DE near Venlo.


----------



## Palance

In my hometown I have seen some trucks from the Caucasus (Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan). Also 2 cars from Iceland. Those are the 'rarest' plates I have seen so far in the Netherlands. Abroad, I have seen plates from Libya (on Malta), Jordan (in Yugoslavia, end of the 80's) and Maroc (in France). And of course I see regularely licenseplates from the rest of Europe which is not so strange, apart from the Iceland cars. But of course all that s caused by the open borders in Europe (which brings us back ontopic  )


----------



## RipleyLV

Palance said:


> which brings us back ontopic


Not so fast there cowboy! I'm thinking of making a special thread about license plates which you have seen! Is there any one who speaks for the plan?


----------



## eucitizen

Well this summer I saw that turks living in Scandinavian countries and Germany started to use new routes, like Czec. rep -> Slovakia -> Hungary -> Serbia. I saw them mainly on the motorway between Prague - Brno and Bratislava.


----------



## Verso

US and Canadian license plates aren't that very uncommon in Europe; I see a few of them a year. In Switzerland I saw a Mexican plate (Nuevo León).


----------



## x-type

in my firm we had a question could we transport something to Pakistan (by truck)  i guess HR plates would be really exotic there


----------



## Timon91

Verso said:


> US and Canadian license plates aren't that very uncommon in Europe; I see a few of them a year. In Switzerland I saw a Mexican plate (Nuevo León).


For me it was the first time to see one in Europe. The furthest away I've ever seen were four Chinese rally cars on the A2 near Breukelen. And in Fairbanks, Alaska, I've seen a Florida license plate. That must have been a hell of a drive to get there. 
btw, Verso, did you return from your holiday


----------



## DanielFigFoz

There are lots of NJ cars around Figueira.


----------



## caminerillo

khoojyh said:


> which border crossing is the most busy in the world.???


I don't know in the world. In the European Union (but not in Europe, in Africa), is  the Spanish-Moroccan border crossings in Ceuta and Melilla.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The busiest in the world is San Diego - Tijuana if I'm correct. The busiest in the Netherlands is Breda - Antwerpen, 70.000 vehicles a day.


----------



## Verso

Nice video; they really made it smooth-to-cross; there are more curves at our border crossings.


----------



## Timon91

^^You're right. Other video's I've seen from e.g. the German-Polish border near Olszyna and Swiecko have much more curves. You have to slow down much more. There must be some reason for it


----------



## Qwert

Verso said:


> Nice video; they really made it smooth-to-cross; there are more curves at our border crossings.


Now they should only repave it and it would be perfect, like in federal era.


----------



## brisavoine

*Recht und Ordnung vs. Dolce Vita*

Somewhere along the German (D)-French (F) border.

Admire the impeccably weeded path on the German side of the border compared to the, how should I say..., more "Latin" upkeep of the path on the French side of the border. :lol:


----------



## brisavoine

Here it's the French who are 'Recht und Ordnung' and the Germanics who are 'dolce vita'. This is the border between France and the Netherlands on the Caribbean island of St Martin (someone asked for pics of that border). In the foreground, the road without markings is on the Dutch side of the island, whereas the road with markings in the background is on the French side of the island.


----------



## brisavoine

France to the left, Deutschland to the right. The picture was taken in the Swiss city of Basel (Basle).


----------



## Kronos KBC

Originally Posted by *Qwert*
...On Polish side there is national road DK 75, on Slovak side there is regional third class road III/5403. Ironic is that Slovak regional road looks much better than Polish national road.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------

*These photographs is a story 2006 year* 
*DK 75 Muszynka - Krzyżówka 90% road is repaired*



*Muszynka - Krzyżówka foto september 2008*


















===========================================================

*Ożenna - Nižná Polianka PL/SK*



*foto september 2008*






*1 km new road* 



































:goodbye:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Its very nice around there.


----------



## Morsue

Wow, I think every crossing between Poland and Slovakia has been covered in this thread


----------



## Timon91

Anyone made pics yet of the skiing border crossing in the High Tatras 
That Slovakian road looks awful hno:


----------



## Verso

Morsue said:


> Wow, I think every crossing between Poland and Slovakia has been covered in this thread


Poland in particular has been fully covered.


----------



## Sponsor

Timon91 said:


> Anyone made pics yet of the skiing border crossing in the High Tatras


??


----------



## Timon91

You know, you can ski from Poland to Slovakia in the High Tatras. At least, that is what my travel guide said


----------



## Qwert

Kronos KBC said:


> *These photographs is a story 2006 year*
> *DK 75 Muszynka - Krzyżówka 90% road is repaired*


I hope so, but anyway it shouldn't be DK road. BTW, there seems to be big activity on our borders with all those reconstructions.:nuts:



Morsue said:


> Wow, I think every crossing between Poland and Slovakia has been covered in this thread


There's still plenty of the-end-of-the-world-crossings left. E.g. this one or this one, but also this one. We cannot forget this one. And that's only borders eastern from Tatras.



Timon91 said:


> Anyone made pics yet of the skiing border crossing in the High Tatras
> That Slovakian road looks awful hno:


You mean this one?










Photo was made during Summer so there is no snow to ski on. But even in Winter I don't recommend to ski there, you know, it's national park...


----------



## brisavoine

These two markers show the exact location of the old border between France and the German Empire in the Vosges Mountains.


----------



## Verso

Yesterday I drove through Austria from Slovenia to... Slovenia.  Must be one of the shortest transit routes through Austria, just about 13 km.

The first border crossing I used was at Jezerski vrh / Seebergsattel at 1218 m elevation:









After 13 km I crossed Pavličevo sedlo / Paulitschsattel at 1338 m:









None of the roads are particularly important, especially the second one, so they are really quiet.


----------



## Timon91

According to Google Maps that road is very hilly, and there are some hairpin turns. Did you make any other pics?


----------



## Verso

^ No, sorry, even these two pics aren't mine, I'd probably get sick by taking pics on such a winding road.  So yeah, it's really winding and quite steep (up to 18%), and that second road is rather narrow, the Austrian side has only been open for a few years.


----------



## Manolo_B2

Tripoint in Basel
Switzerland - France - Germany










:hi:


----------



## Verso

^ I've been here too... but not yesterday. :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Too bad it's not exactly on the tripoint, because that's in the middle of the river.


----------



## mat2230

On the beach between Świnoujście and Seebad Ahlbeck



























The view on the border on the Polish site. This is a street between Świnoujście and Seebad Ahlbeck on the Uznam (Usedom) Island. Here was a border checkpoint, only for cyclist and walker.


----------



## Timon91

Since Poland joined the Schengen area, are you allowed to cross the border on the beach?


----------



## Verso

^ Of course, why not?


----------



## Timon91

^^Well, on other pics I've seen the the DE-PL beach border, there were barbed wire fences on there. So it isn't very inviting to make a nice walk across the border :lol:
btw, on mat2230's pictures, you still see fences, though the wire seems to be gone.


----------



## Verso

^ They didn't bother removing it, I guess, but movement is now totally free.


----------



## PLH

^^ Sure, you can cross the border ANYWHERE, the other thing is if you're able to 

On those pics the wire is of course gone.


----------



## PLH

*Border crossing Bezledy PL/RUS*


















Imagine you have to overtake them: :crazy:
















































We do not want to enter Russia








So we're turning back


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Interesting. Those long waiting lines are so 1960's. Especially for this tiny portion of Russia. They should abolish all border controls for the Kaliningrad Oblast. It's surrounded with Schengen. They also should lift visa's for Kaliningrad.


----------



## Timon91

Aren't there lots of people in Kaliningrad that want it to be independent? It would save a lot of waiting time when they make the rules less strict. But it's Russia, so forget it hno:


----------



## Cicerón

Irún (ESP) - Biriatou (FRA)





Urdos (FRA) - Canfranc (ESP). Somport Tunnel.





Udine (ITA) - Villach (AUT)


----------



## PLH

ChrisZwolle said:


> They should abolish all border controls for the Kaliningrad Oblast. It's surrounded with Schengen.


What?! Do you know what would happen then?

Anyway...



Timon91 said:


> ...it's Russia, so forget it hno:


----------



## Grotlaufen

PLH said:


> What?! Do you know what would happen then?


Enlighten me, please. I´ve got no clue what you´re trying to say.


----------



## Mateusz

And Russia is not in European Union so not a chance...


----------



## BIL

*Finland - Russia*

Along the entire Russian border, there are truck queues, because of the detailed paperwork required at the Russian border control. The large increase in traffic because of Russian economic growth increases the truck queues all the time, even though the Russians try to increase the capacity.

On the Finnish side the quese can be 50 km long. This photo is from a road camera 5 km from the border. A special truck lane has been built. Further away cars use a minor road instead of E18 because trucks queue on E18.










This is the border control on E18 on the Finnish side.


----------



## eucitizen

Cicerón,

Is that possible that they are dismantling the border infrastructure between France and Spain, that's incredible. If that is true, I hope it will happen also on the other motorway border, near Perpignan.


----------



## Timon91

@BIL: that's horrible. It must take days for those poor truckers to get through. Aren't there any other truck crossings?


----------



## eucitizen

Well I think that the borders with Ukraine show a quite similar spectacle and as I know the ukrainian officers happily take bribe, otherwise you have to wait for many hours. The fastest way is to park the car before, pass through the border by foot and then taking a taxi on the other side. You can see that at the border between Slovakia and Ukraine,Vysne Nemecke - Uzgorod.


----------



## Cicerón

eucitizen said:


> Cicerón,
> 
> Is that possible that they are dismantling the border infrastructure between France and Spain, that's incredible. If that is true, I hope it will happen also on the other motorway border, near Perpignan.


Well, they have dismantled the old border infrastructure, but...

They have dismantled the old toll booths (7 for France and 6 for Spain), and they're building the new ones (10 for each country) in the same place where the old "customs" were. However, they are building a new "Bureau à Contrôles Nationaux Juxtaposés (BCNJ) / Oficina de Controles Nacionales Yuxtapuestos (OCNY)".


----------



## eucitizen

Ok ok but this new building will be all over the motorway, or just on the side for every sense of march?I mean if they are going again to mount booth for border control, or to keep the motorway passage free? I think that rebuilding the control booth would be a violation of the Schengen agreement, as there is said that every member country has to remove any obstacle to let the vehicle pass through smoothly!


----------



## Timon91

^^I'm scared of spiders, but not of this border station :lol:


----------



## Dan

I like it!


----------



## brisavoine

Border between Cambodia and Laos:


----------



## brisavoine

Border between Senegal and Gambia. Notice the good pavement on the Senegalese side of the border, and the bad pavement on the Gambian side of the border.


----------



## brisavoine

Border bridge between Sierra Leone and Liberia:


----------



## brisavoine

Border bridge between two of the most prosperous African countries, Gabon and Cameroon.

No border check? :uh:


----------



## brisavoine

Border bridge Senegal and Mali:










Sign at the entrance on Malian territory. From top to bottom, the French text means:
Always in good company!
Caution! AIDS & STD are still around.
Welcome to Mali. / Drive protected!


----------



## Timon91

I like the Gabon and Cameroon picture. That road almost looks like a good European road. And I'm also wondering where the check could be.....


----------



## PLH

^^ There is a white booth on the other bank of the river


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I believe Gabon & Senegal have generally relatively good roads for African standards


----------



## brisavoine

Talking of Gabonese roads, here is a road in Gabon crossing a "border" of another sort, the Equator!


----------



## Timon91

^^Again, that road looks very good


----------



## Izumo

Blue = drive on left
Red = drive on right

so how douse a border crossing look like between a red and a blue country:nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, these "left driving" countries are either geographically isolated or have underdeveloped road systems, so it isn't really a problem.


----------



## go_leafs_go02

ChrisZwolle said:


> Well, these "left driving" countries are either geographically isolated or have underdeveloped road systems, so it isn't really a problem.


well Hong Kong and mainland China is the exception to that argument.


----------



## brisavoine

This is how it looks. Entering Pakistan from China.


----------



## brisavoine

At the border between Scotland and England, in case Scottish people forget it's left-hand traffic in England. :nuts:


----------



## brisavoine

Traffic change at the Thai-Lao border. A nice X road sign that is rarely seen.


----------



## brisavoine

The border between Buthan and India. No traffic change there, but a cute border rarely seen.


----------



## gabrielbabb

Border San Diego, California, USA - Tijuana, Baja California, México 









Left side is San Diego - Right side is Tijuana there's a great wall between USA and Mexico of thousands of Kms. :S


----------



## Nikkodemo

gabrielbabb said:


> Left side is San Diego - Right side is Tijuana there's a great wall between USA and Mexico of thousands of Kms. :S


Awesome and sad image....hno:


----------



## Timon91

Yeah, it is quite shocking to see the city just suddenly stop at the border hno:
US-Mexico border has never been a happy thing.


----------



## brisavoine

Gag Halfrunt said:


> Surely this is really at a ferry port.





ChrisZwolle said:


> Isn't this sign in some port city which carries ferry traffic from the Faroe Islands?


No. I know it seems crazy, but the sign is really at the Scottish-English border. I managed to find a larger picture proving it's really at the border.

Welcome to the (dis)United Kingdom! :lol:


----------



## Gag Halfrunt

brisavoine said:


> No. I know it seems crazy, but the sign is really at the Scottish-English border. I managed to find a larger picture proving it's really at the border.


It looks like the exit from a car park (note the OUT sign), so the sign is to remind foreign drivers to drive on the left when they get back on to the road.


----------



## Kvaka 22

Nikkodemo said:


> Awesome and sad image....hno:


When I see this I immediately think of all that "human rights" bulls*it comming from USA. :blahblah:

Disgusting. :down:


----------



## Nikkodemo

...and the Mexico-USA border line is probably the most conflictive border of the world.

:dunno:


----------



## Dan

Two separate countries that don't have borderless zones having a fence...what is wrong with that? There are countless border fences everywhere -- including Schengen on many places along its outer border. Has nothing to do with human rights. Expanding a metro area into another country isn't a human right...


----------



## brisavoine

Gag Halfrunt said:


> It looks like the exit from a car park (note the OUT sign), so the sign is to remind foreign drivers to drive on the left when they get back on to the road.


Apparently the Scottish authorities are in the habit of putting "drive left" signs everywhere for no speacial reasons.

This one is near Fort George, Scotland, where the Michelin map doesn't indicate any ferry terminal :









This one is in the middle of the street in an unspecified Scottish town:









This one is near Abington services on the M74. The uploader mentions that each roundabout exit have one of these signs, which he/she finds really bizarre given that it's in the middle of nowhere in Scotland. The uploader then concludes: "Maybe there was a spate of customers leaving the local Welcome Break after a night in the local Travelodge in an early morning daze driving onto the wrong carriageway of the M74? Who knows." :lol:









Again in the middle of nowhere, near Clachan of Glendaruel:









Betraying the Auld Alliance! The French text is gone. 









Drive on the left but only from 8am to 6pm. :rofl:









When in doubt, just follow the sheep, they know their Scottish traffic code.


----------



## mgk920

gabrielbabb said:


> Border San Diego, California, USA - Tijuana, Baja California, México
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Left side is San Diego - Right side is Tijuana there's a great wall between USA and Mexico of thousands of Kms. :S


The border crossing in the top image (San Ysidro/I-5, looking north from Mexico), the busiest border checkpoint in the World, is located just above that large drainageway in the bottom image. The line itself is about where the lane dividers begin. Yes, ALL of the land on the USA side of the border (San Ysidro) in the bottom image is actually inside the corporate limits of the City of San Diego. It is fairly densely developed just off of the image to the left.

Mike


----------



## Nikkodemo

Dan1113 said:


> Two separate countries that don't have borderless zones having a fence...what is wrong with that? There are countless border fences everywhere -- including Schengen on many places along its outer border. Has nothing to do with human rights. Expanding a metro area into another country isn't a human right...



I know, but I wanted to mean this broder is special, because as you can see the border crossing of San Ysidro, it's only one border crossing, there a lot of cities like similar situation, in all 3000 kms of border line between Mexico and USA, and it's considered as the most popular border of the world; this border is special for both nations for commercial reasons and maybe political, I meant it's conflictive because as a mexican citizen I see every single day a lot of problems with drugs traffic, the war against cartels,illegal inmigrants from all around the world trying to enter USA, the sadly famous wall,and other reasons.

Greetings to Sweden.....


----------



## Qwert

Dan1113 said:


> Two separate countries that don't have borderless zones having a fence...what is wrong with that? There are countless border fences everywhere -- including Schengen on many places along its outer border. Has nothing to do with human rights. Expanding a metro area into another country isn't a human right...


Something similar can be seen also inside Schengen. Although without fence or wall, but 20 years ago there was one.

Bratislava as seen from Austria:

























Photos are from www.panoramio.com

Both Slovakia and Austria are in EU and Schengen, in less than three months we will have even the same currency, but still you cannot see something like spreading Bratislava agglomeration across the border. There is city on one side of the border and calm countryside on the other side.

(To be "ontopic" a bit, on the last photo in right bottom corner you can see border crossing Petržalka-Berg)


----------



## x-type

why is there allways crowded at USA - MEX border? do they do shopping abroad or what? :?


----------



## Bahnsteig4

Mmh...I guess lots of Mexicans work in the US?


----------



## mgk920

^^
There is a lot of commuter traffic, shoppers, day tripper tourists, people crossing to visit friends/relatives, etc. The long lines going northbound are due to the USA's inspections - it is a 'developing' World/1st World interface. Wait times can often go several hours long at some crossings. On the Mexican side, there is a 'border zone' that requires little in the way of red tape to enter, but to continue on to visit the interior one must clear the REAL border crossing checkpoints several km inland (and I do understand that the red tape at them is pretty heavy and the inspections pretty thorough).

Lines and wait times are usually far shorter at the USA-Canada border crossings.

Mike


----------



## urbanfan89

Nikkodemo said:


> ...and the Mexico-USA border line is probably the most conflictive border of the world.
> 
> :dunno:


Naah. It pales in comparison to the Korean DMZ.


----------



## danVan

urbanfan89 said:


> Naah. It pales in comparison to the Korean DMZ.


i agree:


----------



## Nikkodemo

Well, in this case, I'm agree too....:S


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Qwert said:


> Both Slovakia and Austria are in EU and Schengen, in less than three months we will have even the same currency, but still you cannot see something like spreading Bratislava agglomeration across the border. There is city on one side of the border and calm countryside on the other side.


Strangely enough, Basel has spread into France and Germany while it isn't even in the schengen-treaty.


----------



## Timon91

^^I guess it's quite handy living in Hainburg a.d. Donau in a rural area, with such a big city nearby.


----------



## Dan

The Swiss are not very strict on border checks though they are not in Schengen, or? It is strange, I think. If you get checked leaving, wouldn't they get huffy if they saw no entry stamp on your passport?

Won't matter soon I guess since they are joining Schengen this year.

What are Andorran border checks like? I hear they actually have them.


----------



## Timon91

I remember the border crossing when I took the ferry from Hoek van Holland to Harwich a few years ago. We normally don't think about it, but in the harbours there are crossings too, of course. Nice pics, Palance!


----------



## DanielFigFoz

PLH said:


> Yes, it divides lanes in the same direction, double line - in opposite


Herw you can get signle in same direction and in opposite but double only in the same.


----------



## redstone

Singapore / Johor Bahru, Malaysia









The causeway is simply called, Causeway.

This point always had been a crossing. At first, a ferry line, then a rail ferry line, where a railway connects to a ferry transfer pier in 1909. The Causeway was first built in 1923 as a cargo railway causeway, and later was used for passenger rail. 

A roadway and water pipe links was built soon after, but the Causeway remained as one structure. It used to have a rolling lift bridge section, but it was removed as vehicular traffic soon exceed the shipping traffic. Part of it was blew up during WWII by the British, but was later rebuilt by the Japanese. 

It was widened decades ago, but still the causeway is very congested at times because of the setting of the customs, and that the bridge was too narrow. 

Singapore / Johor State, Malaysia









As with the "Causeway", the second link between Singapore and Malaysia was called, Second Link. hno: Built in 1998 to ease congestion on the Causeway.


----------



## Dan

Is it true that the ferry betwen the Netherlands and England is shutting down?

Ferries between the rest of Europe and the UK have been slowly dying in recent years, a couple years back the ferry to Sweden was killed and a couple months ago the last one to Norway took off...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are several ferry routes between NL and UK.


----------



## Timon91

^^Hook of Holland - Harwich
IJmuiden - Newcastle
Rotterdam - Hull

That's all as far as I'm concerned. They used to have a quick catamaran ferry (75 km/h) between Hook of Holland and Harwich, but it wasn't profitable because it consumed loads of fuel, so it has been replaced by an old slow boat again.


----------



## Verso

Engeland


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Engeland is quite a funny word if you read it literally. In German "Eng" means narrow. Narrowcountry. 

In Dutch, "eng" means scary. Scarycountry.


----------



## PLH

*PL/D A11/A6 Szczecin*




















How has it been with other former border chcecks in Germany? Didi it take long to turn them into rest areas?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I remember the ANWB motorists guide of Europe a few years ago about Poland; they advised not to take pictures of borders, bridges or other strategic locations. Man how things have changed.


----------



## Miguel_PL

Alex Von Königsberg said:


> IMO, German warning triangles with white background look better than Polish ones. Also, is single solid line used in Poland at all?


I like our Polish signs. They're almost the same as in Sweden and it's proved that the black colour on the yellow makes better contrast than in the white - black combination...


----------



## Mateusz

ChrisZwolle said:


> I remember the ANWB motorists guide of Europe a few years ago about Poland; they advised not to take pictures of borders, bridges or other strategic locations. Man how things have changed.


Potential danger of imperialist agents ? :lol::nuts:^^


----------



## Timon91

Crazy corrupt police? :lol:


----------



## NorthWesternGuy

Great pics of all those countries. Europeans, I envy you so much If you could see my city (Mexicali) and its smaller, twin sister Calexico (USA)... Actually they are one city divided by an ultra-militarizated fence...hno:


----------



## Verso

NorthWesternGuy said:


> Great pics of all those countries. Europeans, I envy you so much


That depends on which Europeans you mean.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Its interesting all around Europe they are demoloshing the unused border crossing buildings but between Sapin and Portugal they are still there (you dont have to come to a full stop).


----------



## Dan

Not everywhere though. There was barely anything other than the sign pretty much on the A1 crossing into Galicia from what I remember.


----------



## NorthWesternGuy

Verso said:


> That depends on which Europeans you mean.


Schengen, of course


----------



## RS.ban

Miguel_PL said:


> I like our Polish signs. They're almost the same as in Sweden and it's proved that the black colour on the yellow makes better contrast than in the white - black combination...


who proved it?
Because we had yellow-black combination since forever and now they are changing it in white-black coz according to them has been proved that this combination is better and safer.


----------



## Miguel_PL

RS.ban said:


> who proved it?
> Because we had yellow-black combination since forever and now they are changing it in white-black coz according to them has been proved that this combination is better and safer.


It has been proved by the analysts. Why are you asking :nuts:


----------



## Morsue

Timon91 said:


> Yeah, when we left Switzerland in 2004 and crossed over into Germany there was no control.


I crossed in to Switzerland from France at St Louis/Basel quite late in the evening two months ago with my passport drawn. There was however no customs check.


----------



## Timon91

@PLH: Quite a clear difference in pavement between CZ and PL. They really need to redo the Czech side. Is there such a difficult sign with the speed limits when crossing into Poland?


----------



## RS.ban

Miguel_PL said:


> It has been proved by the analysts. Why are you asking :nuts:


I am asking coz here in the media were saying that the whites are proved to be better than the yellow ones. What is more logical coz if you look at it it is more noticeable than the yellow.


----------



## PLH

Timon91 said:


> Is there such a difficult sign with the speed limits when crossing into Poland?


I knew you'll ask for that  Yes, it's around the corner...


----------



## PLH

*PL/RUS Grzechotki/Mamonovo*

Still waiting...

http://www.ubekistan.pl/thumbnails.php?album=13&page=3

Pages 3, 4, 5


----------



## Timon91

Nice link PLH! Some pretty good pics :cheers:
What is the penalty if you cross the border illegally and you get caught? I read somewhere that if you cross from Norway into Russia illegally and you get caught, you have to pay 5000 NOK.


----------



## PLH

^^











Dunno, but I'll check

edit: you might be either fined (15 - 150 €) or inprisoned for up to 3 years when it was by using force or a trick. And don't forget that Russians won't welcome you...


----------



## Timon91

:rofl: Nice picture, PLH! Russians are always very difficult about this hno:


----------



## pmaciej7

Sweden->Denmark (Oresundbridge)









Denmark->Sweden


----------



## Verso

We have a lot of Polish border crossings here. Any photos of the Polish-Slovenian border? :laugh:


----------



## pmaciej7

Wait a minute, i'm going to conquer Austria :horse:, and then i'll post some pictures.


----------



## Timon91

^^:rofl: Hang on, I'll conquer Germany, than we'll have some pics of the Dutch-Polish border 
I'd love to see lots of pics of the Polish-Belorussian border over here :yes:


----------



## x-type

this is now an old border corssing Goričan - Letenye (HR - H). it is the largest border crossing between Croatia and Hungary. new border crossing is built at motorway, this one will be from now on for lorries and maybe for local traffic.

Goričan (HR)









Letenye (H)


----------



## Timon91

Why wouldn't you be allowed to cross there as e.g. a tourist? Just to keep the traffic separated?


----------



## x-type

no, when i said local traffic, i meant local roads connection. actually, state roads (D3 in HR and 7 in H), but not motorways. i don't know for future status of that border crossing, i only know that prime function will be lorries' traffic


----------



## eucitizen

In November the EU should decide if Switzerland is ready to join the Schengen area. If yes, probably in december CH will become a member. One curiosity: there is no custom union between EU and CH so if the police will stop you they will have the right also to ask you what you brought into the country.


----------



## Dan

Verso said:


> Idk, but we started changing it when we were entering EU. Sweden and Finland still have yellow signs though.


As far as I know the regulations allow for either white or yellow, so I'm guessing it was just a convenient time to make it closer to what everyone else was using, better standardization.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Line of trucks waiting to get into Russia from Estonia: Sometimes truck drivers have to wait 10 days to cross the border.


----------



## Timon91

^^I once saw a report on that border on Dutch tv. I really feel sorry for all those truck drivers. Brute Russian bureaucracy hno:


----------



## PLH

Timon91 said:


> I'd love to see lots of pics of the Polish-Belorussian border over here :yes:


Have you seen these?

http://www.moje-morze.pl/przezautaszybe/foty/2/imagepages/b2.html

Also check the whole page.


----------



## Timon91

^^Now I've seen them 
This sign is probably the only sign with Terespol on it that doens't have two ovals next to it. Nice site btw. Even without speaking Polish you can find the pics :lol:


----------



## PLH

^^ It's because the text in white box says border crossing(przejście graniczne) and Tersespol here is just a small village.

Let me make it clear:

All this silly names of small towns in the middle of nowhere with two ovals are the names of border crossings, *not* cities.


----------



## PLH

A little bit of history:

*West Berlin/DDR Dreilinden*




























Check out that road: http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&hl=pl&ie=UTF8&ll=52.396992,13.169324&spn=0.003411,0.011072&z=17


----------



## Verso

^^ Interesting. I suppose the road was left rotting b/c of a more straight route of the A115?


----------



## Timon91

I think so. Someone posted some aerial pics of this over here some time ago. It's quite close to the current A115, AFAIK.

-edit- Must be somewhere over here


----------



## Dan

Wow, so that was ust left? Way cool


----------



## ABRob

Verso said:


> ^^ Interesting. I suppose the road was left rotting b/c of a more straight route of the A115?


Well...
The GDR-government build the new route of the A115 in 1969, because the old passed West-Berlin-territory after the checkpoint...


----------



## pmaciej7

Another ex-DDR/West Berlin crossing Stolpe/Heiligesee (A111), opened to trafic 1.1.1989.

Stolpe, DDR part. Now motrway is passing by, then it was closed.









In second turn i drove through bridge over motorway. Now it is a rest area with...









...hotel...









...and filling station.



























On another bridge, driving back to motorway.









_Deutsche Teilung 1945-1990_. Behind this silver car, there's a yellow sign "Berlin".









Entering Berlin.









Heiligensee, second part, these were WB-checkpoints.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

On German holidays, truck traffic is not allowed, so the border is virtually closed for trucks entering Germany from neighboring countries (except perishable goods). The result is that the border crossing parking is quickly full, and trucks start to line up on the shoulder. In the Netherlands, this line can reach 16 kilometers (10 miles) on the A1 motorway. All parking areas are filled to capacity, up to 80 kilometers from the border and trucks start to line up on the shoulder there too. 

I made a video of this situation about 17 months ago, May 2007. We were there around noon, and the line was about 4 kilometers long, but it reached 16 kilometers that evening.


----------



## PLH

^^ By holidays you meant this, right?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah


----------



## PLH

We have that problem every Sunday. They fill up every parking and after 10 p.m start driving - one after another.


----------



## Palance

Nice pictures of the former German border. I have visited Berlin in 1987 by bus so we used the Transit-Autobahn through East-Germany. I remember the strict checks at the border, altough the East-German police wre quite relaxed (we were warned for there bad behaviour, but nothing at all). We could even make a joke with one of them. We used the Dreilinden check and the Helmstedt bordercrossing. It was a very interesting experience.

In 2003 I have been in Thüringen and visited Mödlareuth. A must-see for borderjunkies, since that village was seperated by the border and they left most of the border (towers, fences, etc.) for touristic purposes.


----------



## Timon91

According to wikipedia Mödlareuth still has 50 inhabitants. It's not a very nice reminder for the people that have been 'imprisoned' by that border. However, it would be interesting to got there one day.


----------



## RS.ban

Slovenia - Italy near Trieste


----------



## Dino S

RS.ban said:


> Slovenia - Italy near Trieste


Fernetiči/Fernetti


----------



## Verso

^^ This one is even better. The new border crossing between Slovenia and Hungary (Pince/Tornyiszentmiklós). Viva (Las) Schengen!


muravidék said:


>


There's also the Slovenian flag behind the first sign. :cheers:


----------



## Timon91

:cheers: It's beautiful, Verso


----------



## sauronbcn

The Mexicali, Baja California and Calexico, California Border



Mexicali II border crossing



Mexicali I border crossing





*Mexi*co/*Cali*fornia , *Cal*ifornia/M*exico*


----------



## Timon91

It clearly shows that there is a border, though it can be quite sad what's happening over there.


----------



## Dino S

Slovenia is not part of Austria^^


----------



## Verso

Where is Croatia?


----------



## Timon91

^^Belongs to Slovenia


----------



## Jeroen669

Dino S said:


> Slovenia is not part of Austria^^


As well as the benelux is not one country...


----------



## Chris Jackson

Cicerón said:


> That sign is for the Way of St James. It says somthing like "Way of Saint James-European route".


ah right!, that would explain why Santiago was signposted as 800 or something kilometers away a few miles down the road, we figured it was probably a pilgrims route or something.


Thanks for correcting me on the Foral/Floral thing, i did just notice that lol, sorry


----------



## go_leafs_go02

So how come I did not have to show any passports or anything of the kind personally when I crossed over the English Channel from Dover to Calais about a year and a half ago?


----------



## Verso

^ Maybe they don't care sometimes? Like the Swiss.


----------



## Bahnsteig4

Like that map! 
All hail Austrian sea power! :lol:


----------



## Bahnsteig4

> Maybe they don't care sometimes? Like the Swiss.


Realistically speaking, they probably know they have nothing much to fear, I guess.


----------



## Verso

Bahnsteig4 said:


> Realistically speaking, they probably know they have nothing much to fear, I guess.


Rabies! :lol:


----------



## Morsue

They implanted a tracking device under your skin when you thought you were safe, so they're cool.


----------



## Republica

10 years ago showing a passport was no big issue going from France to England, then in 2001 they began checking them all and now they do it electronically, but sometimes they are not too bothered again it seems.


----------



## Palance

Today, I have made a trip to the major border crossing point between the Netherlands and Belgium, Hazeldonk. Here the Dutch A16 continues into the Belgian A1, and both road have the European number E19.

Around the motorway there are some industrial areas: "Transportzone Meer" at the Belgian side and "Hazeldonk" (officially: _"Breda 6000-7000"_)at the Dutch side.

Along the motorway there are 2 parallelroads whch connect both industrial areas (and cross the border, of course). 

First I have driven the parallelroad to Belgium, there I have joined the motorway to the first exit after the border, turned towards the Netherlands, left the motorway before the border, and made some pictures at the other parallel-road exactly on the border. As you can see, there is no sign when entering the Netherlands (except on the motorway itself). After that, I have re-entered Belgium and then re-entered the Netherlands again and left the borderarea.

Please click here to visit the album

Map.


----------



## Palance

Furthermore, some pictures of the border from Essen (Belgium) towards Roosendaal (Netherlands), where the Belgian N117 continues into the Dutch N262

Heading to Roosendaal









Netherlands: 2km.









Driving to the border.


















Approaching the border.


















The Border: No sign anyway (but you can see the change in pavement)









Some old trafficlights (this was once a very big crossing, nowadays there is hardly any traffic)









Welcome to the province of Noord-Brabant.









Speedsigns and the first roadsign in the Netherlands.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The N262 is some kind of at-grade expressway, right? I've never been there.


----------



## Timon91

Me neither. I've seen pics of it before though. I don't go to Belgium very often anyway. Though there is no sign there, it's still quite visible. You can really see this was once a big crossing :lol:


----------



## PLH

www.xs4all.nl/~egavic/ASN/11-11-08/N262/S_PICT23112.JPG

What a mess... I'd never say it's Belgium


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This is quite usual in Belgium. While Belgium is a very rich country in income, their public space too often looks like some 3rd world country although I don't think they will admit it that easily. Last year, I drove through some U/C local residential street, which was also a through street in Wallonia (near Cheratte) which was just mud with huge holes in it. Other countries would close such a road temporary, but there wasn't even a detour route in effect.


----------



## Timon91

Most Belgian roads used to be quite bad. AFAIK they repaved the worst parts now (can't really tell, last drive in Belgium was 4 years ago)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, things have improved a lot in Belgium, especially in Flandres, but there's still a long way to go. The economical crisis back in the 70's (I think) hit Belgium much harder than the Netherlands, so many roads constructed back then were constructed on the cheap. Maintenance is still a problem though. But I don't think you compare it very good to the Netherlands, we have extremely well maintained roads, it's like a contrast of day and night.


----------



## Verso

No, the Julian Alps are on the border with Italy, you can see the Kamnik-Savinja Alps and the Karawank Mountains, but you can also see the border (yellow) and pieces of Austria behind it.


----------



## Timon91

:doh: Well, it's all in that corner


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*National Border Crossings II*

*Previous Thread*

Tell and show us all about your country's borders with other countries!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*New Thread*


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> but I can see Austria from here anyway.


is that a big deal? you can see Italy, Austria, Hungary and Croatia at the same time from any part of Slovenia 

about crossing the borders - i do it few times per year, mostly hungarian, and mostly in summer time.


----------



## Verso

x-type said:


> is that a big deal? you can see Italy, Austria, Hungary and Croatia at the same time from any part of Slovenia


Don't forget Bosnia. oke:



PS: Chris will soon be author of all threads here


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> Don't forget Bosnia. oke:


oh, no need to look for it over Croatia while you have it present in Slovenia


----------



## renco

Love is blooming


----------



## Verso

Too much trolling in here.


----------



## LT1550

Trip by shuttle bus from San Ysidro/USA to Downtown Tijuana/MEX during my last USA trip in May 2008:









The border is clearly visible, a Motel 6 in front









Buying tickets for Mexico and return









Inside the bus









Heading to the border check-point


















Welcome to Mexico


----------



## Timon91

x-type said:


> is that a big deal? you can see Italy, Austria, Hungary and Croatia at the same time from any part of Slovenia
> 
> about crossing the borders - i do it few times per year, mostly hungarian, and mostly in summer time.


It's quite small, isn't it? 
I can see Holland right now, but I'm not in it :lol:


----------



## Manolo_B2

some more pics of USA-Mexico-crossing... 



















:hi:


----------



## Timon91

That last pic looks horribe hno:
A few expensive American cars on one side, a very poor area on the other side.


----------



## RS.ban

Mexico will fell on USA


----------



## Verso

Switzerland (as well as Liechtenstein, I suppose) will enter the Schengen Area on 12th December 2008 on land border crossings. :banana:


----------



## Timon91

^^Is there any control between Switzerland and Liechtenstein currently?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've never seen one. They do check between Liechtenstein and Austria though.


----------



## Verso

Timon91 said:


> ^^Is there any control between Switzerland and Liechtenstein currently?


No, that's why Liechtenstein will most probably enter Schengen as well.


----------



## PLH

^^ Well, it's the other way round more likely 

Will it be fall 2008 or 2009?


----------



## Timon91

So Liechtenstein and Switzerland are kind of "Benelux", so the "Switzerstein" or "Liechtenland"?

By the way, is it true that you can hire Liechtenstein for parties?


----------



## Verso

I don't know about parties, but I know that long-distance intl trains running through Liechtenstein don't even stop in it.


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> I don't know about parties, but I know that long-distance intl trains running through Liechtenstein don't even stop in it.


there are only 2,5 km between station in Schaan and Buchs


----------



## NorthWesternGuy

LT1550 said:


> Trip by shuttle bus from San Ysidro/USA to Downtown Tijuana/MEX during my last USA trip in May 2008:
> 
> http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/4003/dsc0221da4.jpg
> The border is clearly visible, a Motel 6 in front
> 
> http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/4372/dsc0226ze9.jpg
> Buying tickets for Mexico and return
> 
> http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/253/dsc0227ol5.jpg
> Inside the bus
> 
> http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/2691/dsc0228gk6.jpg
> Heading to the border check-point
> 
> http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1933/dsc0229yq4.jpg
> 
> http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4052/dsc0230gp6.jpg
> Welcome to Mexico
> 
> http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/7403/dsc0231ds8.jpg


You came to Baja California? What places did you visit?


----------



## RS.ban

^^ @ NorthWesternGuy please delete those picture.. don´t quote with them.


----------



## Nukleusri

Ex-international border crossing Kozina-Pesek (SLO - I) on Slovenian side


----------



## LT1550

NorthWesternGuy said:


> You came to Baja California? What places did you visit?


We just made a short (three hours) visit to downtown Tijuana.


----------



## RS.ban

Nukleusri said:


> Ex-international border crossing Kozina-Pesek (SLO - I) on Slovenian side


It is not ex it is still international crossing but only there are no controls.


----------



## PLH

^^ Border crossing is a place where you can cross the border, and in Shengen you can do that everywhere. Now it is not more than few useless booths


----------



## Verso

To be correct, there are now hundreds of road border crossings. If you wanna include pedestrian border crossings, their number is more of a philosophical question, as you can cross the border almost anywhere.


----------



## RipleyLV

Polish and Lithuanian border crossing: Budzisko - Kalvarija


----------



## Verso

^^ I wonder how big (small) this border crossing and the roads leading there was right after the fall of the communism and Lithuania gaining independence, when it suddenly became important.


----------



## Timon91

It's also the other way around: the border towns of Schengen borders lose their importance now.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, everybody knows Waidhaus/Rozvadov. While they've forgotten about De Lutte or Bocholtz.


----------



## x-type

does somebody have photos of border crossings in ex-soviet countries (including baltic ones, i'm especially interested into them actually)? both pre-schengen and post-schengen are wanted


----------



## RS.ban

PLH said:


> ^^ Border crossing is a place where you can cross the border, and in Shengen you can do that everywhere. Now it is not more than few useless booths


is that border between 2 countries? Yes
DO people cross border there? Yes the do
so what is the conclusion?!
It is border crossing


----------



## RS.ban

Verso said:


> ^^ I wonder how big (small) this border crossing and the roads leading there was right after the fall of the communism and Lithuania gaining independence, when it suddenly became important.


well this question would make sense if you have asked about border between ex soviet republics, coz border between PL and USSSR only changed to PL - LV


----------



## Czas na Żywiec

^^ I think you mean PL - LT.


----------



## RS.ban

I have problem distinguishing names of these two countries in english sorry guys


----------



## Verso

RS.ban said:


> well this question would make sense if you have asked about border between ex soviet republics, coz border between PL and USSSR only changed to PL - LV


I don't know what you're trying to say. I'm just wondering, if the border crossing Budzisko/Kalvarija between Poland and Lithuania was small and if roads on both sides of it were bad, considering it wasn't important before 1990, but then it suddenly became important as the Baltic gateway to central and western Europe. It's a short border, so it's the only important PL-LT road border crossing.


----------



## RS.ban

i am guessing that it was important back than in ld times, coz it was border between USSSR and PL.


----------



## x-type

RS.ban said:


> I have problem distinguishing names of these two countries in english sorry guys


i'll give you a recipe: just remember their english names. Lithuania doesn't have "v", Latvia does. so one with "v" can bi only LV, and that's Latvia  that's how i have learnt it


----------



## RS.ban

In Serbian Lithuania has V and Latvia doesn´t  that is why i am confused


----------



## Verso

RS.ban said:


> i am guessing that it was important back than in ld times, coz it was border between USSSR and PL.


The Soviet-Polish border was much longer than that. There are four ex-Soviet republics bordering Poland, and if you ask me, Lithuania was the least important (and very short border). My old map of Europe (from 1992) shows the road there with the thinest line possible. The same with the road between Slovenia and Hungary.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Dutch people mix up Lithuania and Latvia too, all the time.


----------



## PLH

Verso said:


> There are four ex-Soviet republics bordering Poland


Three(LT, BY,UA)

I suppose the most important was with Belarussian SSR, Brest.


\/ OK, with Russia it would make four of them.


----------



## Timon91

^^Russia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine. That's four.


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> Dutch people mix up Lithuania and Latvia too, all the time.


interesting, none of american presidents havn't mixed them yet (Slovenia/Slovakia and Austria/Australia are still leading over LT/LV)


----------



## Verso

PLH said:


> Three(LT, BY,UA)


You don't notice the world's biggest country beside you? hno:  (ok, Kaliningrad Oblast is small though)


----------



## PLH

Verso said:


> You don't notice the world's biggest country beside you? hno:


I try to look in the opposite direction


----------



## Morsue

x-type said:


> interesting, none of american presidents havn't mixed them yet (Slovenia/Slovakia and Austria/Australia are still leading over LT/LV)


How about Sweden/Switzerland? And also, Copenhagen is not the capital of Scandinavia...


----------



## RipleyLV

Morsue said:


> How about Sweden/Switzerland?


I usually mix up them in russian Швеция/Швейцария! :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

How about Slavonia, Slovenia and Slovakia?


----------



## Timon91

American: "Hi, where are you from?"
Dutchman: "Amsterdam"
American: "How nice, I've been there a few times. Denmark is really beautiful!"


----------



## Bahnsteig4

> Slovenia/Slovakia


They even share a flag. :gaah:


----------



## Timon91

Dutch flag:










Luxembourg's flag:










Quite often this leads to confusion.


----------



## RipleyLV

What about, 

Poland










and Monaco


----------



## Verso

Better yet, Monaco and Indonesia (the same).


----------



## Bahnsteig4

Austria and Latvia:










1. Latvia has stolen our flag.
2. It lies in the Baltics (Our Flag!)
3. Apart from that, they are using our flag. ("The stripe is too thin!)
4. The people in Latvia are called "Latvians". (Our flag!)
5. Latvia is using our flag. (The red is too dark, too!)
6. And they've also stolen our flag! ("Put that away!")

No offense.


----------



## x-type

oh, there are more same flags:
Chad - Romania
Ecuador - Colombia


----------



## Timon91

The Netherlands, Slovenia, Serbia, Slovakia, Luxembourg, Russia all have horizontal stripes in red, white and blue. Just different orders and some of these also have a national emblem in the flag :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, San Diego county for instance is as large as 1/3th of the Dutch land area, while SD county isn't even an exceptionally large county. Texas is bigger than France... (and they're quite proud of that )


----------



## Bahnsteig4

> Texas is bigger than France... (and they're quite proud of that)


And we all know Texan cheese, Texan literature, Texan philosophers and obviously, the Texan revolution of 1789.


----------



## PLH

Bahnsteig4 said:


> And we all know Texan cheese, Texan literature, Texan philosophers and obviously, the Texan revolution of 1789.


:lol: :applause:


----------



## Timon91

But Texas isn't the biggest state in the US, and they don't like that


----------



## SeanT

No Timon, but what they DO like ...anyway???
:nuts:

maybe....TEXAS


----------



## Timon91

The current president is a Texan, but I don't think that they should be happy about that. And of course it's the biggest state in the continental US


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Alaska is not part of the continent? I think you mean contiguous


----------



## Timon91

It is part of the continent, but it's not connected to the other 48 states, so when people say "continental US" they mean the 48 states, excluding Hawai and Alaska. It looks like it's not part of the continent anyway. By car it's about 2000 miles from Seattle, which is quite far


----------



## SeanT

Yes, after the "old" president from Texas ...now is going to be a new one, an afro American guy. I thought USA was not ready..., but I was wrong.
It is a big thing for US. and maybe for the world. NO LIMITS, YOU CAN BE, WHAT EVER YOU LIKE!! :cheers:


----------



## Timon91

I hope Obama will do well. The expectations are very high, if he doesn't serve perfect he fails, but I have faith in him. Back to the border crossings now


----------



## Verso

Timon91 said:


> It is part of the continent, but it's not connected to the other 48 states, so when people say "continental US" they mean the 48 states, excluding Hawai and Alaska. It looks like it's not part of the continent anyway. By car it's about 2000 miles from Seattle, which is quite far


Americans call it "contiguous USA", I've also seen expression "conterminous USA", b/c you can't say Alaska is not on the continent (except islands off the coast). Only Hawaii are.


----------



## Timon91

The only thing I heard is _continental USA_ to indicate these 48 states.


----------



## Bahnsteig4

"Lower 48" is a term that's especially popular in AK and HI, I heard.


----------



## Verso

Timon91 said:


> The only thing I heard is _continental USA_ to indicate these 48 states.


How, when (almost all of) Alaska is on the continent?


----------



## valdano7007

The San Ysidro crossing (busiest crossing in the world) between Tijuana (Mexico) and San Diego County, California (USA).










Another image of the San Ysidro crossing









It is worth saying that the San Ysidro crossing is only for private automobiles. Trucks and public transportation vehicles must use Otay-Mesa crossing, to the east of Tijuana. 

On a cultural note, weekend crossings, when mexican families go shopping or to entertainment to San Diego, form waiting lines sometimes longer than 2 hours to cross. Traffic from the USA to Mexico is almost continous. Also on weekends, hundreds of underage U.S. teenagers cross to Tijuana to drink and smoke pot. Legal drinking age in Mexico is 18, compared to 21 in the U.S., however many places in Mexico tolerate under-18 drinkers because they pay in US dollars.


Below is the Santa Fe bridge crossing, between Ciudad Juarez (Mexico, above) and El Paso, Texas (USA, below)


----------



## Timon91

Verso said:


> How, when (almost all of) Alaska is on the continent?


Remember, you have to drive over 3000 kms to get to Alaska from Seattle. That creates a feeling of Alaska being on another continent. 



Bahnsteig4 said:


> "Lower 48" is a term that's especially popular in AK and HI, I heard.


Yes, in Alaska I've often heard this term


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

Very often term "lower 48 states" is used for shipping purposes. Naturally, postage costs to Alaska and Hawaii are way higher and often very large items are not shipped there on a regular basis.


----------



## Bahnsteig4

Sounds a little condescending to me.


----------



## mgk920

Alex Von Königsberg said:


> Very often term "lower 48 states" is used for shipping purposes. Naturally, postage costs to Alaska and Hawaii are way higher and often very large items are not shipped there on a regular basis.


However, First-Class letter rates are the same regardless of where in the USA the item was mailed from or to. A normal First-Class letter is 42¢- period - whether it is for the same Zip Code or if it is going between San Juan, PR and Barrow, AK or Lanai City, HI.

Mike


----------



## Timon91

When I was staying in a hotel in Fairbanks there was a small booklet about living in the arctic. There was one page with "You live in Alaska when....", and one of the following lines was as follows "....you once dialed a 1-800 number to order something from a catalogue, but to hear: 'Alaska? Sorry, we don't ship to foreign countries'"


----------



## Dan

'tis also easier to say England than United Kingdom or Great Britain.


----------



## Palance

On the other hand, you'll find a lot of Dutch trucks with the adress of thei company on it, with Holland in stead of the Netherlands, even if that company is not situated in one of the Holland-provinces. Perhaps because Holland is more well-know as a country-name.

So even the Dutch make that mistake.










Zeewolde is *not* in Noord- of Zuid-Holland but in Flevoland.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, it happens a lot along Dutchmen too. "I'm from Holland" is a normal sentence.


----------



## SeanT

snupix said:


> If only we had stayed together with Austria


 ...Yes.....No shit!!!:nuts:


----------



## SeanT

Timon91 said:


> In Slovakian it's common name is also "Holandsko", but they have a correct translation: "Nizozemsko" (or sth like that)


 Buttom line the only way you can say it in hungarian is HOLLANDIA. Belive me! Everyone in Hungary knows which country we talk about.....yes It is 
HEINEKEN!!!!!:banana::banana::banana:


----------



## x-type

so only in hungarian and dutch there is only one term for that country?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ The Dutch term is "Nederland". In Dutch, nobody would say they're from "Holland", but they would say "Ik kom uit Nederland".


----------



## Timon91

^^I usually only refer to it when I'm talking about the Holland provinces. And Dutch people that emigrated a long time ago also seem to use it.



SeanT said:


> Buttom line the only way you can say it in hungarian is HOLLANDIA. Belive me! Everyone in Hungary knows which country we talk about.....yes It is
> HEINEKEN!!!!!:banana::banana::banana:


Hungary, Hungary, Hungary. Oh yeah: goulash


----------



## PLH

x-type said:


> so only in hungarian and dutch there is only one term for that country?


No - we have Holandia(more common) or Niderlandy.


----------



## Nikkodemo

Oh my God, I've seen very few pics of this thread....hno: :bash:


----------



## Timon91

^^Have a look in the previous thread, you'll find many


----------



## christos-greece

Austria, Netherlands (or Holland), Hungary..... are great countries btw


----------



## x-type

PLH said:


> No - we have Holandia(more common) or Niderlandy.


ok, but it is often to have 2 forms. it seems that only dutch and hungarian use only one form. actually, croatian too because "Holandija" is considered as serbian word. so we say "Nizozemska".


----------



## hix

In Dutch you say "Nederland" in English "the Netherlands" (pluriel). The Term "De Nederlanden" (pluriel) refers to the Benelux (aprox).
I find it very confusing.
Nederland
the Netherlands
Holland
De Nederlanden
Nederlands
Hollands
Dutch
And in Belgium a lot of people will say they speak Flemish in stead of Dutch because they do not want to be mistaken for our nice neighbours.
No wonder people are confused.


----------



## Palance

To make some more confusion: "Dutch" is the adjective for someone or something from the Netherlands. But for something from Germany, we use the word "Duits".


----------



## Timon91

"Dutch" comes from "Diets", which is an old form of Dutch. Does anyone still follow it?


----------



## x-type

you are all belgians


----------



## Timon91

^^Shut up, you Slovenian


----------



## PLH

OK, so now a bit more on-tipic 

1. How long did it take for border booths to be removed after the Nethelands joined Schengen, esp. on more importanr roads? 

2. Does anyone knows where can I find info about tenders of possible demolishion of border booths at PL/D border (could be in German) ?


----------



## Timon91

PLH said:


> OK, so now a bit more on-tipic


Good idea 



PLH said:


> 1. How long did it take for border booths to be removed after the Nethelands joined Schengen, esp. on more importanr roads?


Some are still there, on the A7/BAB280 and the A1/BAB30 crossings, for example. On other major crossings, like on the A12/BAB3 crossing, the buildings are still there, abandoned next to the road. Just before this there is a gas station and a road side rest area, so there is nothing to do with this terrain. It's just a parking spot for trucks. I don't know what's going to happen to the buildings:


----------



## eucitizen

Ok I willtry to do my best, but it will be next year. 
Anywya the slvoak side didn't changed at all.


----------



## Timon91

There is probably less need to dismantle the Slovak side, since that building doesn't obstruct the 2×2, where the building on the Czech side does divide the lanes.


----------



## Gag Halfrunt

The countries of central and eastern Europe must have spent millions of euros since the 1990s building and expanding border faclilities to cope with increased traffic levels, and now all those new structures are redundant because the countries have joined the Schengen agreement.


----------



## paF4uko

^^ It worth the sacrifice...


----------



## radiant_city

RS.ban said:


> It is not hard to learn +10-15 more states (forget about difference between Baltic states and Slovenia and Slovakia)


Says you. Ten or fifteen would be difficult for a lot of people here in the USA, who don't know about or care about geopolitics and who border on outright xenophobia. I was talking about four to six times that many new political entities.

I'm not saying it would be difficult for me, once I went to the effort of researching it. But it would take research, and it's effort to which a lot of us Americans aren't willing to go.


----------



## Dan

We had European history in 10th grade and had to learn all the European countries and their capitals for our final exam.  Also had to place them on a map.


----------



## paF4uko

^^ When I was in school we had that for every continent. I don't remember which grade it was...


----------



## Verso

^ I know all countries and their capitals. From the top of my head... Saint Kitts and Nevis - Basseterre. :cheers:


----------



## Timon91

I haven't had geography for a few years now. But I guess I will keep my knowledge up to date when I stay active over here :lol:


----------



## paF4uko

At the same time these things don't change every day...


----------



## Timon91

Well, I meant that I will just stay remembering it because it returns here daily 

But I guess I wasn't clear enough


----------



## paF4uko

^^ You know you have to be explicit with me... It's my professional deformation from computers - everything is 0 or 1 :lol:


----------



## Timon91

I see. I know I can be a little vague sometimes, sorry about that


----------



## PLH

In the middle of OT, my queston again:



PLH said:


> Does anyone knows where can I find info about tenders of possible demolishion of border booths at PL/D border (could be in German) ?


----------



## Piotrek_409

Do You have any pics of the A - CZ border Drasenhofen - Mikulov?


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> ^ I know all countries and their capitals. From the top of my head... Saint Kitts and Nevis - Basseterre. :cheers:


i usually know about 90-95% of them, but when i think a bit or when i read the list once i know them all. now i'm trying to learn 3 or 5 largest cities in all countries. what can i do - i adore it! i knew all major capitals in the world + whole Europe when was 4


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think I know 95% of all cities in the US with population above 100,000. :nuts:


----------



## Timon91

Wow mg: There are a few hundred of them :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

269 to be exactly.


----------



## Czas na Żywiec

radiant_city said:


> Says you. Ten or fifteen would be difficult for a lot of people here in the USA, who don't know about or care about geopolitics and who border on outright xenophobia. I was talking about four to six times that many new political entities.
> 
> I'm not saying it would be difficult for me, once I went to the effort of researching it. But it would take research, and it's effort to which a lot of us Americans aren't willing to go.


Effort and research? Not really. Maybe if you live under a rock but just alone from reading and participating at SSC you learn a hell of a lot more than the schools will bother to teach you and you don't really have to go through much effort at all.


----------



## Timon91

That wasn't very much to dismantle, but at least it happened


----------



## PLH

^^ Yeah, I must say it happens fairy quicky, does it seem for you even faster than in old EU?


----------



## Timon91

The border crossings at the Polish-German border are still there, this seems to be the first that got dismantled. For the old EU: they removed all obstacles on the roads, but the buildings along the motorway are still there (abandoned though)


----------



## x-type

PLH said:


> ^^ Yeah, I must say it happens fairy quicky, does it seem for you even faster than in old EU?


depends which. i'd say that Irún and La Jonquera are still there. at least, La Jonquera was when i was there last time.


----------



## radiant_city

Czas na Żywiec;29061008 said:


> Effort and research? Not really. Maybe if you live under a rock but just alone from reading and participating at SSC you learn a hell of a lot more than the schools will bother to teach you and you don't really have to go through much effort at all.


You're missing my point. Most Americans would _rather_ live under a rock and would find the task of pinpointing any given country on a map daunting-- any country at all, not just those that have sprung up in the last thirty years. And if you think they wouldn't find it an effort to get themselves up to speed, then you are giving the American educational system far more credit than I believe it deserves.

Those people are the least likely to be posting here to begin with, because they (like our outgoing president) are not curious about the world in which they live. Once they acquire that curiosity, they will find this place waiting.

Incidentally, I didn't say I hadn't actually done at least some of the research. Just that for me, it was a bit of work-- but considerably less than it would have been 15 years ago before the advent of the interweb. And I don't live under a rock.

Mostly what I am learning from this thread is that 95% of the world's border crossings occur in Poland.


----------



## Majestic

radiant_city said:


> Mostly what I am learning from this thread is that 95% of the world's border crossings occur in Poland.


:lol:

Well, that's the truth


----------



## Dan

Haha...indeed we need more pictures! The previous thread was much better.


----------



## Timon91

Yeah, the only stuff we discuss over here are the small border villages in Poland


----------



## Verso

It's all ok until we get to see entrances of Polish embassies; they are also kind of border crossings.


----------



## geogregor

Verso said:


> It's all ok until we get to see entrances of Polish embassies; they are also kind of border crossings.


For some reason Polish forumers are very active on SSC forum. To whichever thread I go there is always someone from Poland posting something. It is a bit suprising considering that internet penetration is still quite lower in Poland than in western Europe. Why I don't see so many forumers from Italy or Spain?
Other active nation is definatelly Netherland. Especially in all infrastructure threads. Probably 'cose they all traders and merchants


----------



## RawLee

Border on M7(Hungary-Croatia):








(wikipedia.org)


----------



## eucitizen

*Motorway border crossing on Brenner pass between Italy and Austria*





On the italian side they are building a shopping mall, so it will be a very interesting location for tourists to stop 
On the austrian side, you can notice that kind of bridge other the motorway. It was built once they dismantled completely the old border crossing.

*Border Crossing between Austria and Germany on Inntal motorway*





Here there is nothing that can remember you that once there was a border crossing. Nowadays on both sides of the motorway there are only petrol stations.


----------



## paF4uko

This is the Bulgarian city Ruse seen from the Romanian city Giurgiu, on the other bank of the Danube:










There is still border control, because both countries have not implemented yet the Schengen agreement. However border check is performed only on the side of the country you are entering either by Romanian or Bulgarian police. Often there are Romanian policemen on the Bulgarian side and Bulgarian policemen on the Romanian side.
There are no customs controls both states being members of the EU.

The Romanian side:








_source: Wikipedia_

The bridge connecting Giurgiu to Ruse:








_source: Wikipedia_

Entering Bulgaria:








_source: www.worldharmonyrun.org_

The Bulgarian side:








_source: www.worldharmonyrun.org_


----------



## Palance

Strange that "Bulgaria" is only in English on the bridge. One should expcet at least a bilangual sign, or otherwise only Bulgarian.


----------



## paF4uko

^^ I don't approve this neither, but what do you expect from people annihilating their own language?


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

God damn it, all I read about in this thread is how another Eastern-European border crossing got recently dismantled while the border between the USA and Canada is getting more and more strict. It's very sad  After 18 January, the US border regulations will require all permanent residents to submit their biometrics data upon entering the country. This means that I will have to get out of the car and come inside the station when I return from Canada :bash: I kind of imagined that the future will be less strict in all aspects, not more strict.


----------



## paF4uko

^^ Fear keeps people under control...


----------



## Qwert

Alex Von Königsberg said:


> God damn it, all I read about in this thread is how another Eastern-European border crossing got recently dismantled while the border between the USA and Canada is getting more and more strict. It's very sad  After 18 January, the US border regulations will require all permanent residents to submit their biometrics data upon entering the country. This means that I will have to get out of the car and come inside the station when I return from Canada :bash: I kind of imagined that the future will be less strict in all aspects, not more strict.


There are still pretty strict borders in Europe as well. Outer Schengen border is probably much more protected than US/CAN border. It's rather similar to US/MEX border I would say, only without walls, of course.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, most outer borders of the Schengen area are considered to be with the more, er how do I describe it without offending people, criminal/dangerous etc countries, while Canada is not quite such a country in my opinion.


----------



## Palance

Neither are Liechtenstein and the Scandinavian non-Schengen-countries


----------



## Timon91

Yeah, when traffic volumes stay low, traffic lights are the cheapest solution


----------



## Palance

China to Pakistan:










And an old picture of the border Sweden-Finland when people in Sweden drove on the left side of the road. Note the change on the middle of the bridge.


----------



## Verso

Palance said:


> China to Pakistan:


What a cheap solution. :lol:



Palance said:


> And an old picture of the border Sweden-Finland when people in Sweden drove on the left side of the road. Note the change on the middle of the bridge.


I had no idea they'd used to drive on the left in Sweden.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> What a cheap solution. :lol:


You expected a shiny fly-over on this dirt road?


----------



## Palance

@Verso: They did so until 1967.


----------



## Verso

^^ Interesting, and those hours in the night they had to stop...



ChrisZwolle said:


> You expected a shiny fly-over on this dirt road?


Where's that anyway? I can't believe it's the Karakoram Highway.


----------



## RPM

Border Crossings entering Alaska:

Skagway Border Crossing on the Klondike Highway:









Dalton Cache Border Crossing, heading toward Haines Alaska on the Haines Highway:









The Alcan Border Crossing, on the Alcan Highway:









And the best of all, Poker Creek Border Crossing on the Top of the World Highway:








These buildings were the port of entry until 2001 when they were replaced by a newer building. The officers lived in those houses, and the house on the right with the sign out front doubled as the office. 









This building is the new office, and it is shared with Canada Border Services. 










This is what the facility looks like from the next peak.


----------



## Verso

^^ Neat. How 'tough' are Alaskan land border crossings?


----------



## mgk920

Verso said:


> ^^ Neat. How 'tough' are Alaskan land border crossings?


I suspect that the inspections are very similar to those in the 'lower 48'.

If it wasn't for the sign and the flags, you'd think that that Skagway crossing was somewhere in the Alps.

Mike


----------



## Dan

Not only did Sweden drive on the left, it voted no to driving on the right in a referendum (something like over 80% against the change!), but parliament made the change anyway 12 years later, haha...









This was in 1967. The first day of the change was a little confusing.


----------



## mgk920

Morsue said:


> There are many. In China in fact even in the same country. That's between Hong Kong and the mainland and there they do use flyovers. Others places are southern Africa, South America and a lot of places in Asia. Check this map out:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_driving_on_the_left_or_right.svg


The most major crossing between Hong Kong and mainland China (Shenzen) uses a series of helices to switch the sides, they are on the mainland side of the crossing.

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=22.521199,114.069693&spn=0.010248,0.014849&t=k&z=16

Also, a crossing between Macao (drives on left) and mainland China:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=22.1448,113.550482&spn=0.020551,0.029697&t=k&z=15

Mike


----------



## Verso

mgk920 said:


> Also, a crossing between Macao (drives on left) and mainland China:
> http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=22.1448,113.550482&spn=0.020551,0.029697&t=k&z=15
> 
> Mike


Interesting; I didn't know there was a road between Macau and mainland China elsewhere than on their land border in the north of Macau.


----------



## Protteus

Border beetween USA/ Mexico, in San Diego - Tijuana, 
entering to Mexico.




JAVIERCITOO said:


>


----------



## Nikkodemo

Amazing pics!!!!

Specially the google maps!!!


----------



## Timon91

Guys, if you want to discuss borders and border issues, please visit www.borderforum.org, a border forum which is set up by forumer Palance 

Anyway, I haven't seen any pics from the major German-Polish borders recently. Have they yet started dismantling them?


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Portuguese/Spanish border (Vilar Formoso/Fuentes de Oñoro)


----------



## Verso

Putting flag on border-crossing signs is a rather new thing here. I don't think you've seen it before; it's on this picture, but not visible, b/c another sign is in front of it.


----------



## Palance

What a difference compared to this old one: :lol:


----------



## Verso

I think the flag sign is quite shiny, I wonder if Radi would like it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I like it, makes it more personal for the persons from those countries.


----------



## Palance

In the Netherlands they are not in the official list. I think that this is a kind of agreement between the EU-states, althoug not every country (like Ireland and the United Kingdom) uses them.

I have once made this picture of a bungalowpark in the Netherlands. It is not on a border, but a kind of feeling that the guest should have that he would leave the country when entering the bungalowpark


----------



## PLH

End-of-the-country signs are quite rare, aren't they?


----------



## Verso

PLH said:


> End-of-the-country signs are quite rare, aren't they?


So far I've only seen them in Italy (but on just two border crossings):


----------



## christos-greece

Interesting photos...


----------



## Verso

^^ Reached 10,000 posts, as I can see. :lol:


----------



## PLH

Very interesting 10,000 posts :tongue4:


----------



## Timon91

^^Nice pics......
Interesting thread......
Beautiful pictures......

He registered later then me, and I'm on the forum now for 1 year and 1 day, he really has nothing better to do :lol:



PLH said:


> End-of-the-country signs are quite rare, aren't they?


That sign is not official, as Palance explained. It's just when you enter a Center Park that you have to feel 'abroad'.


----------



## Verso

PLH said:


> Very interesting 10,000 posts :tongue4:


Time for Versadjectives! :horse:


----------



## Timon91

Those were some server-killing posts


----------



## Verso

Timon seems to be in a good mood.


----------



## Apteryx

*Swiss vote for Schengen*










finally it seems that the borders between Europe and Switzerland will not suddenly reappear.
Strange that the most rich areas in the north do not seems to be scared by romanians and bulgarians while the ticino it is.


----------



## Timon91

I'm going on holiday on Sunday, so I have to be. Still there is a lot of work to be done in the remaining three days of this week and next friday is the 13th, to make matters worse


----------



## Palance

Verso said:


> So far I've only seen them in Italy (but on just two border crossings):


Do you have any idea whether this situation/those signs still exist (since both countries are in Schengen now)? I am going to Slovenia/Croatia in a few months, should be an interesting place to viist on my way to Istria.


----------



## Morsue

Their being in Schengen doesn't impact whether those signs are there or not. I could imagine that the ITALIA sign is still there while the Slovenes have replaced theirs with a blue EU sign.


----------



## eucitizen

As far as I know those 12 stars sign are officially encoded in Italy, Slovakia, Czech republic and Latvia. For the other countries you should more than me


----------



## eucitizen

Also France has it encoded:

http://www1.securiteroutiere.gouv.fr/signaux/detail.asp?sSignal=2314


----------



## BND

eucitizen said:


> As far as I know those 12 stars sign are officially encoded in Italy, Slovakia, Czech republic and Latvia. For the other countries you should more than me


Here you can see the Austrian, Hungarian and Slovakian ones: 
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=31598202&postcount=319


----------



## Palance

Morsue said:


> Their being in Schengen doesn't impact whether those signs are there or not.


That is right, but the situation was from the pre-Schengen time, when it was more important to know in which country you were, than it is now. I have seen more pictures of that particulair road which was fenced to prevent people crossing the border illegally. I can image that that has been removed as well.


----------



## J N Winkler

The 12-stars sign has official standing in both Spain and Portugal (i.e., is in the official signing catalogues). I am not sure about Denmark.


----------



## Robosteve

Palance said:


>


What does the orange sign mean? It looks to me as though it indicates a change in speed limit, but I don't understand what the arrows mean.


----------



## PLH

Yep. Together with France: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2009/03/18/europe/EU-France-NATO-Borders.php


----------



## Timon91

So if we want to experience a border control in the Netherlands we should go to Germany soon


----------



## Verso

PLH said:


> *From tomorow till April 5th Germany is re-introducing border control due to NATO summit.*


Bah, stupid reason. It's all Albania's and Croatia's fault. Or maybe just Albania's.


----------



## x-type

god, thank you (although i'm not too religious) that this summit is not held in HR


----------



## PLH

It would be easier as you have border checks anyway


----------



## x-type

yeah, but i hate when whole Zagreb and half of country are blocked because of 10 so-called important persons


----------



## urbanfan89

PLH said:


> *From tomorow till April 5th Germany is re-introducing border control due to NATO summit.*


So does this mean that border guards will be posted on all roads, even the tiny two-lane ones, just for two weeks?


----------



## PLH

This will mean that main roads will be controlled 24/7, and those minor only at random. 

It would be impossible to controll the whole border, as you still can cross it everywhere.


----------



## Verso

PLH said:


> It would be impossible to controll the whole border, as you still can cross it everywhere.


Really? Even when a Schengen member reintroduces border control, you may still cross its border anywhere, even in woods?


----------



## PLH

I really doubt that you' ll get accused of illegal border crossing.


----------



## Timon91

There are countless border crossings from the Netherlands to Germany, ranging from motorways to some trails in the woods. It's impossible to control them all. I even doubt that those very small crossings were closed/controlled before 1993.


----------



## BND

^^ What about that town where one side of the street is in Germany while the other is in the Netherlands?


----------



## Palance

Like this one:










Furthermore, some pictures of the bordercontrol between the Netherlands (A1) and Germany (A30) on 20th of June 2006 (had to do with the European championship soccer in Germany those days - when we returned later on a small road there was no control at all).

Approaching the border - left lane is closed.









Motorway closed - traffic is forced to leave the motorway here for the servicearea. Note the German speedsign right, whilst we still are in the Netherlands.









The border with Germany is halfway the exit









Dutch police on the right (although this is alreay Germany)









German police on the right. Although the sign said so, none was forced to stop, even not the Polish fans in the car ahead of me. (but I had to wait for some traffic from the left)









Even more German police (on the left)









That's it, leaving the service-area and back on the motorway on the German side of the border.


----------



## rosn19

*I have noticed only pictures of European borders, so here are some of North American borders (MEXICO-U.S.)*

these are from ciudad juarez(on the mexican side), going into the US (got them from the mexican forums)








































































this one is from the city of matamoros during a parade i think








one of ciudad juarez's international bridges








hope it breaks the "euro" trend a bit:nuts: one question, what city is that where the border cuts across the street and cuts the city in two?


----------



## Eulanthe

urbanfan89 said:


> So does this mean that border guards will be posted on all roads, even the tiny two-lane ones, just for two weeks?


What I'm interested in - does this mean that the 'other' country will have controls, too?

For instance, will there be dual Polish/German controls on that border?

If so, I'm going for a little trip...


----------



## Timon91

I don't think that you will be checked twice. I think that you will just be checked once, just like when Poland was in the EU, but not yet in Schengen :dunno:


----------



## Ban.BL

rosn19 said:


> these are from ciudad juarez(on the mexican side), going into the US (got them from the mexican forums)


coz we have lot of them


----------



## Eulanthe

Timon91 said:


> I don't think that you will be checked twice. I think that you will just be checked once, just like when Poland was in the EU, but not yet in Schengen :dunno:


Well, there certainly used to be double controls on the land borders in those days - although I only ever used Swiecko/Frankfurt and Kostrzyn/Kietz. As Poland has systematic exit controls, as does Germany - this is what raises the question, will Poland check?


----------



## PLH

We have no business in controling our border during the NATO summit.


----------



## Eulanthe

PLH said:


> We have no business in controling our border during the NATO summit.


How do you mean?

If Schengen is suspended in Germany and France - doesn't logic dictate that PL et al should be checking too?


----------



## Verso

No, why? Germany and France can check, if they wish, the rest of us don't care.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Portuguese/Spanish border in Vila Verde de Raia

NOT MY PICTURE


----------



## Verso

^^ Cool first car; we (used to) call it 'fič(k)o'.


----------



## Ban.BL

or we fićo


----------



## Fuzzy Llama

I think that this one is Seat 600, and fi(ć/č)o was Zastava 750. Nevertheless all of them are Fiats 600 anyway


----------



## Ban.BL

we called them all fico


----------



## Palance

I happend to find an older photo taken on the border between Italy and San Marino. This is the sign when entering San Marino from the west. There is hardly traffic there, since the most of the traffic comes from the north (from Rimini)

Picture taken in April 2002. There was no check on this road (not even a control point!). On the road from Rimini there was e border station but no checks there as well.


----------



## Verso

Palance said:


> On the road from Rimini there was e border station but no checks there as well.


There are occasional checks.


----------



## Morsue

By the Guarda di Finanza?


----------



## PLH

Why them? They are to patrol Italy's territorial waters.


----------



## eucitizen

PLH said:


> Why them? They are to patrol Italy's territorial waters.


No, they are finance and custom police. They chceck everything regarding goods, taxes and money. When there was the panic about the crash of banks, they were checking italians going to San Marino, if they don't carry big amounts of money to save in San Marinians banks


----------



## Verso

eucitizen said:


> San Marinians


Sammarinese. Weird, but true.


----------



## eucitizen

Verso said:


> Sammarinese. Weird, but true.


The adjective of san Marino? In italian it is like that, i just didn't know they used it also in english, that's all


----------



## Verso

eucitizen said:


> The adjective of san Marino?


As well as noun - singular and plural.


----------



## Ban.BL

Gevgelija (MK) - Evzoni (GR)

Macedonian side









Greek side


----------



## Maxx☢Power

Palance said:


>





PLH said:


> End-of-the-country signs are quite rare, aren't they?


Looks like something the local council put up, because it's not very correct. 11 six-pointed stars when it should be 12 five-pointed stars.


----------



## Ban.BL




----------



## PLH

The one fron DDR is great - Vor dem Betreten wird gewarnt - You're warned not to tresspass - like completely different world (which was true)

The last one is fake most likely.


----------



## Timon91

The last one is probably just for fun. The DDR pic says it all


----------



## mgk920

Where was the second one taken and what does it say?

Mike


----------



## Verso

^ In Tirol, Austria. It says crossing the border by any kind of vehicle is prohibited.


----------



## Timon91

And still there are some bikers that did it


----------



## x-type

HR-SRB Ilok - Bačka Palanka

Croatian side









Serbian side (just an container unfortunately, without roof)


----------



## Ban.BL

x-type 
you have been to NS, will there be any pic-report?


----------



## Sponsor

Ban.BL said:


>


Welcome to Hell :lol:


----------



## Morsue

In the picture below there is a banner saying Welcome to Hell to the Greek opponents. This is so strange on so many levels... :nuts:


----------



## x-type

Ban.BL said:


> x-type
> you have been to NS, will there be any pic-report?


unfortunately not, i wasn't in the mood, and i was sight-seeing in the evening.


----------



## PLH

PL/CZ 
A1/D1 Direction Poland










Coming soon


----------



## eucitizen

A small border crossing between Slovakia and Czech republic after Schengen. This border is mostly unknown to foreigners. 
The border infrastructure was upgraded in 2003, 1 year before the countries joined EU. I think it was a waste of money. Anyway the structure lays on the Czech side.
What is funny is that, when there were still controls, the Slovak police were going to CZ for lunch.


----------



## PLH

How's the D2 crossing doing? Are the lanes still divided (dir. SK)?


----------



## eucitizen

PLH said:


> How's the D2 crossing doing? Are the lanes still divided (dir. SK)?


The situation is the same as it is shown in my video of last year. Nothing changed on Slovak side. I don't even know what the slovak side will do with the border infrastructure. Firstly they have to solve the problem what to give to the towns and villages and what to seel to private people.


----------



## PLH

OK, but removing a pair of posts isn't a big deal?


----------



## eucitizen

You mean the booths? They were already removed soon after the Schengen entry. You pass smoothly the border, with no detour. There is just the border rooth, a speed limit of 60 km/h and the sign that forbids overtaking.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Better than the 10 km/h speed limits at borders in France!


----------



## pijanec

^^Those 10 km/h are ridiculous that's why no one respect it.


----------



## PLH

eucitizen said:


> You mean the booths?


No, the fact that the lanes are divided. Here, at 2:33


----------



## eucitizen

PLH said:


> No, the fact that the lanes are divided. Here, at 2:33


Ok you asked me for border crossing direction SK, what you are showing is direction CZ, on Czech side. I don't know why they didn't yet removed those obstacles after they dismantled the booths. Probably they still have to adjust something there and probably removing them later.


----------



## Ban.BL

*Austria - Hungary *
Klingenbach - Sopron


----------



## Ban.BL

*Croatia - Hungary *
Terezino Polje - Barcs


----------



## Palance

Ah, I remember the Klingenbach/Sopron crossing from 1992 (still have an old passport with stamps from that bordercrossing). I also remember that we had to wait an hour to cross that border.


----------



## x-type

PLH said:


> Old, but still in use :|


it is in the use only for lorries and seasonly for cars (during the summer).


----------



## veteran

snupix said:


> The new one is much smaller than this one, I was surprised when I saw it. It's probably because of the future.


I haven't seen this new one but I expect that I was built small due to future Croatian membership in Schengen. I hope that I'll be soon.


----------



## Verso

> *Italy To Restore Passport Checks For G8 Summit*
> 
> 
> ROME (AFP)--Italy will re-introduce passport checks at all border posts in the run-up to hosting July's summit of the world's richest nations, its foreign minister said Friday.
> 
> Franco Frattini said Rome would suspend the 1985 Schengen agreement, which allows for passport-free travel between 25 European countries, for security reasons from June 25, when Group of Eight foreign ministers are due to meet in northeastern Trieste.
> 
> The minister said the temporary suspension of Schengen "has always been applied for international summits," quoted by ANSA news agency.
> 
> The G8, whose leaders will meet from July 8-10 for the full summit, groups the U.K., Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia and the U.S.
> 
> The last G8 summit in Italy, at Genoa in 2001, was marked by a violent crackdown on anti-globalisation protesters which left one demonstrator dead, hundreds injured and caused millions of euros in damage.


18th June - 15th July, in the summer, the timing couldn't be worse.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It says June 25th. I hate these suspensions, people who want to do wrong can enter the country anyway. They also did that when there was a summit in Germany last year. Do you really think they installed border checks on every country road between NL and D? You can pass the border without checks. We're not in the barbed-wire era anymore...


----------



## eucitizen

The problem is that the italian interior minsitry is from the aprty that doesn´t like EU and Schengen. He tried to doe verything to suspend Schengen and the free movement of romanians. So now he is happy that for some weeks he cna proof how good idea is to have border chcek and to get more popular. Now in Italy this really works.


----------



## eucitizen

ChrisZwolle said:


> It says June 25th. I hate these suspensions, people who want to do wrong can enter the country anyway. They also did that when there was a summit in Germany last year. Do you really think they installed border checks on every country road between NL and D? You can pass the border without checks. We're not in the barbed-wire era anymore...


You are right. I think ti is enough to make tough police chcecks around the city where the summit is held. The police will not stop everyone, just those who seems suspicious. It will amke jsut queues at the borders. And the non sense to prolong the suspension for 1 week after the summit.
It would be nice to hold less summits in Europe


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> It says June 25th.


I don't know, it says otherwise here. I guess it's the most recent date, and sounds logical, if they wanna control the border longer. It's a long article, that's why I didn't post it; I didn't even notice different dates.

Indeed it looks like a good excuse to bring back border control. But what do they want? I can't imagine reintroducing control on borders with Austria and France, b/c controling only the Slovenian (and possibly Swiss) border is useless, as you can enter Italy from Austria and France. And if you ask me, Italian maffia is a bigger problem than Romanians. Not to mention Africans.


----------



## eucitizen

I guess more than that they can´t. And they even can´t reject the Schengen agreement. Romanians are a good political tool to get votes nwoadays in Italy. Mafia is endemic to the country and there you can get few votes. That political party, northern league (lega nord) was losing voters in the last yeras, they just got back thanks to the romanians.


----------



## Verso

I guess crime has nationality too. And it seems to be important in Italy.


----------



## paF4uko

It was because of "Romani people from Romania in Rome" that the extreme right formation in the EP broke down. We should be grateful!


----------



## x-type

*HR-H Gola - Berzence*

welcome to socialism  this is the smallest and the worthless international border crossing between Croatia and Hungary. it has mostly local character (although it is international, not only interstate border crossing), but anyway few times i saw, you've guessed, Dutch cars using it  (unfortunately, not yesterday, when i took those photos)


----------



## GuyFromMoss

Norwegian Customs at Svinesund.


----------



## kphoger

MÉXICO - USA Border Crossing at Colombia, Nuevo León (near Laredo)


View of the Río Grande from the bridge
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kape81/3406916188/in/set-72157616322577016/

On the Border
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kape81/3406106317/in/set-72157616322577016/

US Immigration
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kape81/3406916554/in/set-72157616322577016/

Internal Checkpoint in Texas (I-35)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kape81/3406106611/in/set-72157616322577016/


----------



## panda80

Verso said:


> And if you ask me, Italian maffia is a bigger problem than Romanians. Not to mention Africans.


you are very right Verso!Most of romanians are legally working in italy, and they are very much needed for italian economy.romanians are used mainly in the construction's sector, where no italians will like to work.and many women's from romania are taking care of elderly italians, and that's another kind of work an italian women wouldn't do.of course there are some romanians with bad intentions but that's because their activities were much tolerated by italian police.first of all italia must get rid of corrupted police officers that tolerate infractionality, instead of imposide such kind of barriers towards free movement of people.


----------



## eucitizen

panda80 said:


> you are very right Verso!Most of romanians are legally working in italy, and they are very much needed for italian economy.romanians are used mainly in the construction's sector, where no italians will like to work.and many women's from romania are taking care of elderly italians, and that's another kind of work an italian women wouldn't do.of course there are some Romanians with bad intentions but that's because their activities were much tolerated by italian police.first of all italia must get rid of corrupted police officers that tolerate infractionality, instead of imposide such kind of barriers towards free movement of people.


I was not accusing Romanians. The problem isn't so much corrupted police but the law system. Small criminals can easily spoil the holes in the italian law system. For example till now if there was an illegal immigrant or a foreigner condemned for a crime, they just got a paper saying they must leave the country. They were never deported. Now this new government tries to be tough, but it is more a bla bla bla to get votes, in fact they cut money for police so i guess police will use stones and ropes to cathc criminals on bikes.More or less few things changed, but the enemy is done, Romanians. Anyway it is said that there are around 1 million Romanians in Italy, just in Turin 100.000 having also own construction companies. But you know this government created a panic and every Romanian seems to be a threat to them. I know some Italians who complains about Romanians being criminals, I asked them if they met any of them or if Romanians did something to them, the answer was no, never.


----------



## PLH

*PL/CZ Jasnowice-Bukovec:*









Widok w głąb kraju. Do niedawna naiwniacy tacy jak ja płacili 5 zł zaraz po wjeździe do kraju lokalnym 'przedsiębiorcom' za parkowanie na 'prywatnym parkingu' po prawej i po lewej ...










... nie wiedząc o tym, że darmowy parking z kostki brukowej był o parę metrów za plecami włacznie z darmowym WC. 
W głębi były posterunek celniczy i granica, która biegnie środkiem potoku.










Prawie że wzorowy układ znaków i tylko jedna mała reklama za znakiem z prędkościami.










No i proszę, nawet ładnie to wygląda!










Widok w kierunku Czech. Do niedawna odprawa celna była tutaj. Dziś jest tu galeria malarstawa i ...










... dom trzech narodów. 
Aż mnie w gardle ścisnęło jak to zobaczyłem. 
I jak tu nie lubić bycia w strefie schengenskiej?










Słup graniczny, widok w kierunku Polski.










Międzynarodowa kałuża, kolejny słup graniczny i czeskie oznakowanie.










Nowy styl czeskich ograniczeń szybkości. Marzę o tak prostym znaku u nas!


----------



## eucitizen

So I made yesterday this video of the motorway border crossing between Slovakia and Austria. As you can notice the Austrians are dismantling the border, the Slovaks do nothing and there are no info about the future about the infrastructure. Probably they will keep it for some more time as it cost at that time 33 millions €, big waste of money!
Sorry for the video trembling, but it is the bad motorway paving.


----------



## Verso

^^ Really bad pavement. Is that Slovenian annual vignette on your windshield?

The Polish-Czech border crossing is really beautiful. I've got an impression that Polish border crossings are well incorporated into nature; here, all trees around them would be cut down.


----------



## eucitizen

Verso said:


> ^^ Really bad pavement. Is that Slovenian annual vignette on your windshield?


Yes it is slovenian, half year.  But on my windshield I have a collection of vignettes, I just miss the romanian, while the hungarian is fortunately electronic.


----------



## Verso

eucitizen said:


> Yes it is slovenian, half year.


Is it orange? Half-yearly ones are green.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, that pic may have been taken in the afternoon after all the Tijuana shoppers from San Diego return into the United States. Anyway, this border crossing is a mess.. I heard they build a new one a bit to the east.


----------



## Timon91

All non-Schengen countries perhaps? I doubt that the Channel Tunnel counts, since it's not really a road.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Europark Coevorden*

The Europark is a new industrial park situated on the border of Germany and the Netherlands. The funny thing about this is, is that nobody seems to know where the border precisely runs, so you can see Dutch roads with German road signs. Besides the main border crossing (N382 / B403), there are no signs indicating the border.

The map below does not accuratly presents the border. 
Location of the pics:









1. Op de noordelijke verbindingsweg tussen de twee rotondes, kijkend naar de N382.









2. Zelfde plek, kijkend in de andere richting.









3. Dit is nog in Nederland, maar de B403 staat alleen aangegeven. 









4. De grote rotonde. Aan de overkant komen de twee 2x1 wegen op de rotonde uit.









5. Volgens de kaart is dit nog in Nederland. Duitse borden.









6. Hier idem, kijkend richting westen.









7. Kijkend richting zuiden. Dit zou al in Duitsland moeten zijn.









8. Kijkend richting de grote rotonde. Tussen hier en die rotonde zou ergens de grens moeten lopen, maar geen duidelijkheid.









9. De zuidelijke van de 2x1 wegen. Dit is duidelijk wat ouder.









10. Links N382, rechts B403. De duitse grens is ongeveer 100m naar rechts langs de weg. Het verloop van de verdere grens lijkt echter onduidelijk te zijn.


----------



## Timon91

Are there no stone markers?


----------



## mgk920

kphoger said:


> Not necessarily true, and I'll offer you two reasons why:
> 
> (1) Just because traffic is backed up more on the northbound side, that doesn't mean the traffic flow is heavier - just that the inspection takes longer per vehicle.
> 
> (2) One side or the other might be more backed up due to the time of day; i.e., more people may be going north in the morning, and south in the evening.
> 
> If you think about it, it's common sense that one direction wouldn't be heavier: for one direction to be heavier, it would mean that all those extra people are getting visas and staying in the country.


The big difference is in the level of inspections on the two sides. Northbound, the USA is very thorough. Southbound, the Baja Peninsula is in what Mexico considers to be its 'border zone', with a very weak inspection protocol. To venture deeper into Mexico one must go through an inspection about as thorough as the USA's at a checkpoint farther inland.

Mike


----------



## bozata90

ChrisZwolle said:


> The degree of "busy" of a road is not measured by the amount of people, but by the amount of vehicles. If you take 1 person per car, 4.290.000 / 365 days = only 11.753 persons per day. But it's more plausible that there are 3 persons per vehicle on average, which means only 3.918 vehicles pass through Kapikule daily, which would made it a quiet border crossing. All Dutch motorway border crossings are busier than that, ranging from 7.000 to 58.000 vehicles per day.
> 
> My source is the INWEVA 2006 (XLS!) by Rijkswaterstaat, the Dutch road and water authority.


You are almost right. My Turkish is not that good, but my calculations give an AADT of 3835 (there is a list of the number of vehicles by type). The problem here is that it has a rather seasonal traffic - much like Gootthard there are enormous queues in July and August - mainly Turkish gastarbeiters. In these days AADT shall be more than 30.000 (no official data though). Still it is the busiest border crossing on the Balkans in term of TIR crossings - AADT 1236 according to my calculations (remember - this is for 2005)


----------



## Buddy Holly

bozata90 said:


> You are almost right. My Turkish is not that good, but my calculations give an AADT of 3835 (there is a list of the number of vehicles by type). The problem here is that it has a rather seasonal traffic - much like Gootthard there are enormous queues in July and August - mainly Turkish gastarbeiters. In these days AADT shall be more than 30.000 (no official data though). Still it is the busiest border crossing on the Balkans in term of TIR crossings - AADT 1236 according to my calculations (remember - this is for 2005)


4,290,000 / 365 = 11,753.


----------



## bozata90

Buddy Holly said:


> 4,290,000 / 365 = 11,753.





> http://arsiv.ntvmsnbc.com/news/306147.asp OTOMOBİL, KAMYON, OTOBÜS
> Sınır kapısından geçen otomobil sayısı ise 437 bin 841’i giriş, 428 bin 952’si çıkış olmak üzere toplam 866 bin 793’ü bulunken 2003’te kapıdan 692 bin 421 otomobil geçmişti. Kapıkule’den geçen yolcu otobüsler ve kamyonetlerin sayısında da artış yaşandı.
> 2004’te sınır kapısından 24 bin 167’si giriş, 24 bin 252’i çıkış olmak üzere toplam 48 bin 419 otobüsü geçerken, 2003 yılında ise bu sayı 48 bin 156 olmuştu. Yine sınır kapısından geçen yıl 10 bin 225’i giriş, 23 bin 253’ü de çıkış olmak üzere toplam 33 bin 478 kamyonet, 2003’te ise 28 bin 279 kamyonet geçti.
> 
> 450 BİN TIR GEÇTİ
> Türkiye’nin kara yoluyla yaptığı ihracatın önemli bir bölümünün geçtiği Kapıkule’den 230 bin 204’ü giriş, 220 bin 27’si çıkış olmak üzere toplam 450 bin 231 adet de TIR geçiş yaptı. 2003 yılında sınır kapısını kullanan TIR sayı 366 bin 768 olmuştu.


otomobiller / automobiles: 437 bin 841’i giriş (437.841 entering) + 428 bin 952’si çıkış (428.952 exiting) = toplam (total) 866 bin 793 (866.793) / 365 = 2735 AADT

otobüsler / buses: 24 bin 167’si giriş(24.167 entering) + 24 bin 252’i çıkış (24.252 exititng) = toplam(total) 48 bin 419 (48.419) / 365 = 133 AADT

kamyonet / small trucks: 10 bin 225’i giriş(10.255 entering) + 23 bin 253’ü de çıkış (23 253 exiting) = toplam (total) 33 bin 478(33.478) / 365 = 92 AADT

TIR: 230 bin 204’ü giriş (230.204 entering)+ 220 bin 27’si çıkış (220.027 exiting) = toplam(total) 450 bin 231 (450.231) / 365 = 1233 AADT

2735 automobiles + 133 buses + 92 small trucks + 1233 TIRs = 4139 AADT, but the number of TIRs crossing the border is about 33% of that number


----------



## DanielFigFoz

That industrial park is a very interesting and strange situaiton.


----------



## Jacek2000

I hope there will be much more such investments in Schengen zone. They will help in obliterating old borders.


----------



## PLH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The funny thing about this is, is that nobody seems to know where the border precisely runs, so you can see Dutch roads with German road signs.


Same situation is here (green signs are Polish ones)


----------



## x-type

RP and CR :rofl: i assume it means Rzeczpospolita Polska and Česka Republika


----------



## eucitizen

Polish sign on czech side  But probably the polish put it there right?


----------



## PLH

RP - Philippines in the international code :lol:



eucitizen said:


> But probably the polish put it there right?


I think so as these are Polish names. There is also another one, but quite old - you can change that


----------



## Jacek2000

PLH said:


>



Why are countries' names short forms not as it's usual in white circles but in brackets? And why are they wrong?


----------



## Palance

Borders are (mostly) only marked for touristic purposes, like here on the Dutch/German border where the border runs through a village (Dinxperlo on the Dutch side, Suderwick on the German side)


----------



## Sponsor

Jacek2000 said:


> Why are countries' names short forms not as it's usual in white circles but in brackets? And why are they wrong?


Those are totally right. Rzeczpospolita Polska and Ceska Republika are OK if aren't into white oval.


----------



## Verso

^ It should be ČR though, not CR. Or RC (Republika Czeska).


----------



## manubaba1983

Hello Everyone! I am so happy to know that its not only me who is obsessed with the border crossings and its nice to see that so many people are interested in these stuff.
I had been to UK,Ireand,Hungary,austria,Romania,Slovakia,Germany,Belgium,Czech Republic. I have some meomrable pics and videos of borders of some countries. I will love to update them and share with you all.

Wishes

Manish


----------



## Nikodem

Verso said:


> ^ It should be ČR though, not CR. Or* RC (Republika Czeska)*.


if Republika Czeska than we have RCz


----------



## Shmack

PLH said:


> We left the border *6 hours after we arrived*, the same apples to cars(I chose one to measure the time, ad it left no more than 15 min before we did)


Wow, i thought it was possible only on Russia-Ukraine border. :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Seriously, are they thinking they ever will attract tourists with 6 hour waiting times at the border?


----------



## Timon91

How will this go during Euro 2012? There will probably be much more traffic during this tournament.


----------



## PLH

I suppose the traffic will unofficially divide into two groups: supporters and non-supporters. I bet people will be so determined to pass the border they will pay every amount of money.


----------



## Shmack

I believe once Ukraine and Poland are really close-knit neighbors, there can be no better chance to create a nicely working system of border crossing than Euro '12: some new terminals, roads and all that kind of crap. Most likely this problem is mentioned in the infrastructure development plan.


----------



## PLH

Saying we're close to each other is crap. They don't feel any sympathy towards us, only our money. Let building of UPA soldiers cementary right next to Cemetery of Eaglets be a good example of that.

But this is not DLM here, so EOT.


----------



## Shmack

PLH said:


> Saying we're close to each other is crap. They don't feel any sympathy towards us, only our money. Let building of UPA soldiers cementary right next to Cemetery of Eaglets be a good example of that.
> 
> But this is not DLM here, so EOT.


Well, no offence. I've just heared many various views from both Poland and Ukraine, and Russia on that matter, so it all kinda confuses me. 

Anyways i meant economical ties.


----------



## Verso

It's funny that Ukraine controls its border (much) more thoroughly than the Schengen Area.


----------



## PLH

Oh really? Ukrainian control is "open the bonnet, open the trunk". They don't even look into luggage. It's only a waste of time. 

Polish one is that they can order you to move to the side ant take EVERYTHING out of the car.


----------



## brisavoine

PLH said:


>


They have Auchan in Poland too? :nuts:

By the way, personally my record for crossing a land border was 5 hours spent at the Morrocan-Algerian border near Oujda (2 hours on the Morrocan side, then 3 hours on the Algerian side).


----------



## PLH

brisavoine said:


> They have Auchan in Poland too? :nuts:


:lol:Yeah, together with Carrefour, E.Leclerc, Intermarché, Aldi, Billa , Kaufland , Lidl, Real, Tesco, Macro and many others


----------



## brandsrus

My record of wait time was on the border with Poland / Belarus (Terespol/Brest). There is a building where if it ask of the Customs you can check the luggage. This building is know as a building where you hope nothing to do with!!

Total wait time: 6,5 hour. I passed the border with a bus.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

PLH said:


> :lol:Yeah, together with Carrefour, E.Leclerc, Intermarché, Aldi, Billa , Kaufland , Lidl, Real, Tesco, Macro and many others


Can you believe we have NO such hypermarkets in the Netherlands? I really miss them.


----------



## Verso

PLH said:


> Oh really? Ukrainian control is "open the bonnet, open the trunk". They don't even look into luggage. It's only a waste of time.
> 
> Polish one is that they can order you to move to the side ant take EVERYTHING out of the car.


So it's just a waste of time, even worse.



brisavoine said:


> By the way, personally my record for crossing a land border was 5 hours spent at the Morrocan-Algerian border near Oujda (2 hours on the Morrocan side, then 3 hours on the Algerian side).


When was that? (the border is closed nowadays)


----------



## brisavoine

PLH said:


> :lol:Yeah, together with Carrefour, E.Leclerc, Intermarché, Aldi, Billa , Kaufland , Lidl, Real, Tesco, Macro and many others


So how do you pronounce Auchan in Polish? (the original French pronunciation being [oʃɑ̃])


----------



## brisavoine

Verso said:


> When was that? (the border is closed nowadays)


1989 if I remember correctly.


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> Can you believe we have NO such hypermarkets in the Netherlands? I really miss them.


Especially for you, the largest hypermarket in France, and perhaps also in Europe. It's located in the suburbs of Toulouse.


----------



## Verso

The largest European shopping mall is in (the European part of) Istanbul.


----------



## BND

brisavoine said:


> So how do you pronounce Auchan in Polish? (the original French pronunciation being [oʃɑ̃])


In Hungary some people simply call Auchan as the 'Tesco with bird'


----------



## brisavoine

Verso said:


> The largest European shopping mall is in (the European part of) Istanbul.


Source? How many square meters of commercial space?


----------



## Timon91

German-Austrian border A8/A1

1. Unclear picture of the exit sign for the "Zollamt Speditionen"










2. Approaching the border










3. Border exit










4. Rastätte ahead










5. There it is










I'm afraid that this is it. I have some pics of the same border on my way back, but I'll post those later.


----------



## Verso

Timon91 said:


> Rastätte


Rast*st*ätte.  Nice pics. :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Rastatt


----------



## Bigmikelakers

San Diego/Tijuana Otay Mesa Border Crossing


----------



## natarajan1986

*india-pakistan*


----------



## Chris_533976

Heres Michael Palins documentary on the Wagah border ceremony (India - Pakistan, pic in the post above this)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeSX6AZ5xEI


----------



## Lankosher

Czas na Żywiec;40278158 said:


> Jurgów (PL) > Podspády (SK)


This road is being repaved at present.


----------



## Timon91

Slovene-Croatian border, road 11 (SLO) - 21 (HR)

Road 11 ends at the Croatian border near Dragonja. To cross the border you need to go through two checkpoints, the real border lies in between.

1. In a distance the Croatian checkpoint can be seen.










2. The Slovene checkpoint in a distance.










3. Short queue.










4. Two lines.










5. After the Slovene checkpoint. There is a taxfree shop or sth over here.










6. Entering Croatia. The actual border is a small river.










7. The Croatian checkpoint ahead, and some Dutchies are returning from their holiday :lol:










8. After the border - Croatian speed limit sign.










That's it for this direction. The other direction will follow very soon (10 minutes )


----------



## Timon91

Croatian-Slovene border, road 21 (HR) - 11 (SLO)

Pictures of the other direction.

1. Croatian checkpoint ahead.










2. Short line.










3. Going downhill between the two checkpoints.










4. Entering Slovenia and the EU.










5. Slovene checkpoint ahead.










6. 










7. Again a short queue.










8. Slovene speed limit sign.










That's it for the Slovene-Croatian border


----------



## Verso

Timon91 said:


> 4. Entering the civilized world :jk:


Expect a few Croatian/ex-Yugo comments for that. Anyway, why didn't you include these pics in that post in the Slovenian thread (at least the part in Slovenia)?


----------



## Timon91

Just joking (I didn't mean the Slovene sign, but at the EU sign) - Croatia is beautiful. Rovinj is a real diamond 

I started with the first pic on which a border station was clearly visible, so that's why they're all in this thread. 

By the way: I'm going pretty fast with my Photobucket bandwith now (25% used after 4 days), so the pics will disappear in some time and they will reappear on the 30th of this month. I think that I will use a second account for the other pics to save some bandwith.


----------



## abdeka

*Crossing border btw Algeria & Tunisia - Oum tboul checkpoint*

Algeria

N 44 - El tarf (National park of El Kala)





New highway U-C









04 Kms



Sea & sun



Algerian chekpoint



Tunisia

P7 - Tabarka


----------



## abdeka

*Crossing border btw Tunisia & Algeria - Oum tboul checkpoint*

Tunisia

P7 - Tabarka







Tunisian checkpoint





Algeria

N44 - El Kala


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Danish-German border near Tønder


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Danish-Swedish border on E20, 50 meters above the sea... at the øresund bridge! 


















Turning Torso in the distance.









toll gate in Sweden. They also occasionaly check cars here, even with the Schengen agreement. Especially if you have Dutch plates. Dutch plates = drugs, almost as simple as 1+1=2.


----------



## Verso

Great pics, everyone!


----------



## Ban.BL

Verso said:


> Expect a few Croatian/ex-Yugo comments for that. Anyway, why didn't you include these pics in that post in the Slovenian thread (at least the part in Slovenia)?


i expected yours


----------



## Timon91

Ok, I edited it out.


----------



## Verso

Ban.BL said:


> i expected yours


You expected my expectation? How expected.



:lol:


----------



## Nikkodemo

Awesome pics!!!

:drool:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I love it, no more waiting in your car for hours. I wonder if Croatia will also join Schengen the moment they join EU, or that they're gonna wait a few more years like RO/BG.


----------



## Palance

Quicklier indeed, but still boring


----------



## pijanec

Croatia will not join Schengen at the moment they will join the EU. Slovenia is even lately intensively upgrading it's border control points with Croatia. So, I guess Croatia will join Schengen with Romania and Bolgaria.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

pijanec said:


> Slovenia is even lately intensively upgrading it's border control points with Croatia.


Hmm, I haven't really noticed it, even MK plates before me only had to show their passports, nothing else. I didn't saw a single car that was checked beyond a quick glance at the passports. And that for an outer Schengen border. I think the SLO-HR border is by far the easiest to get through as an entrance/exit from Fort Europe.


----------



## Capt.Vimes

ChrisZwolle said:


> Hmm, I haven't really noticed it, even MK plates before me only had to show their passports, nothing else. I didn't saw a single car that was checked beyond a quick glance at the passports. And that for an outer Schengen border. I think the SLO-HR border is by far the easiest to get through as an entrance/exit from Fort Europe.


A few years back they didn't even chceck my passport when i went rhrough it, the guy just waved his hand and showed me to go ahead.

But hungarian border police (also Schengen border) is another thing. Hate those guys at the customs. :bash:

Bulgaria is scheduled to join Schengen in 2012.


----------



## eucitizen

Uhm some time ago I read that due to problem of corruption in Bulgaria, EU threatened to postpone Schengen for the country.


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> Hmm, I haven't really noticed it, even MK plates before me only had to show their passports, nothing else. I didn't saw a single car that was checked beyond a quick glance at the passports. And that for an outer Schengen border. I think the SLO-HR border is by far the easiest to get through as an entrance/exit from Fort Europe.


sometimes they have larger checks. those at Macelj are experienced and if you are nto suspicious, you will pass smoothly. but at smaller border crossings where officers are bored they often check what do you have in your car


----------



## Capt.Vimes

eucitizen said:


> Uhm some time ago I read that due to problem of corruption in Bulgaria, EU threatened to postpone Schengen for the country.


Well, the new interior minister said recently that he will make a check what the proggress with Schengen is, as the department that was supposed to work on that topic didn't do anything in the last three months. He will then inform the EU what is the situation and if we will be ready to enter Schengen in 2012. There is still time, more than two years and if the new government is working well I don't think there will be such a problem with corruption.


----------



## babareebu serb

Nikkodemo said:


> Awesome and sad image....hno:


Yes,but without such border a half of Mexican citizens would be today in USA,we in Serbia made such mistake and now have a problem on Kosovo,where thousands of Albanians immigated there,and look on that situation...Israel also made such a border with Palestine,and now problems with terrorism are less for 90%!!Only EU receive every year millions of asylants from Asia,Africa,and with their demographic bomb(6,7,8 children)will be ethnic problems in near future!!


----------



## babareebu serb

Nikkodemo said:


> Awesome and sad image....hno:[/QU
> 
> In USA they know very well how tom keep their borders strong from illegal immigration,but look what is happening in Europe,illegal immigrants from all over Asia and Africa come every day,and all members MUST receive that asylants,for example in Lybia is momentaly waiting about 2 millions of Africans to transport in Europe,till Italy,Malta,Greece or Cyprus(they are waiting also in Turkey coast,but in Morroco also)...


----------



## babareebu serb

PLH said:


> ^^
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dunno, but I'll check
> 
> edit: you might be either fined (15 - 150 €) or inprisoned for up to 3 years when it was by using force or a trick. And don't forget that Russians won't welcome you...


This is not border with Russia,it is from www.ahajokes.com/cartoon/b002.jpg


----------



## babareebu serb

Rebasepoiss said:


> Line of trucks waiting to get into Russia from Estonia: Sometimes truck drivers have to wait 10 days to cross the border.


It is not a true,mostly fruits from Serbia is exporting to Russia and Baltic states(your Estonia,too),and truckers wait max.2 days on border with Russia,but convoys of trucks are about 1000 or more,so any border control in EU couldn*t do import papers and spedition busy..For example entry in Hungary for trucks from Serbia is a couple of hours,because it is entry in EU and Hungarian Customs work very lazy!!


----------



## babareebu serb

Palance said:


> There must have been a long time ago, but I cannot remember ever have been controlled at the Belgian border. Schengen exists since 1993, but the Benelux (Belgium-Netherlands-Luxemburg) union is older. I know that sometimes there are some checks (especially at the end of the year when some fireworks in Belgium is sold which is legal there but illegal here).
> But I have never been checked.


Stupidity!Schengen exist from1997!And after 1999 to Scandinavia,and 2009 to east European EU!!Also now is Switzerland and Liechtenstein in Schengen,too!


----------



## babareebu serb

Dino S said:


> Slovenia is not part of Austria^^


Of course we always learned in school,part of Slovenia is in Austria(Kaernten),and Slovenes living there don*t have equal rights as minority.But that is right,only progress is in a few years ago..


----------



## babareebu serb

Timon91 said:


> When you move into that castle, you're really the King of Austria, Verso


He is fooler!Slovanac ti si prevarant!Smanji malo laganje!


----------



## babareebu serb

Manolo_B2 said:


> some more pics of USA-Mexico-crossing...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :hi:


it is possible to jump over,you don*t have a double wall as it was in DDR,and a mine field inside!!This wall is stupid,that is not a real border!!


----------



## mgk920

babareebu serb said:


> it is possible to jump over,you don*t have a double wall as it was in DDR,and a mine field inside!!This wall is stupid,that is not a real border!!


^^
That wall was installed because too many people were crossing from Mexico to the USA (from right to left in the images) at places other than the official crossings. It is one of the few places in the World where the 'First' World and the 'Developing' World bump directly into each other.

There are also genuine worries in the USA about the long-term political and economic stability of Mexico and there was a real possibility of a total collapse there about 20 years or so ago (think: 'millions of refugees streaming northward'). The ongoing Drug War is also a potential destabilizing factor in Mexico.

That said, the cultures and economies of the two sides are fast becoming more and more like each other and the presence of a 'hard' border there is becoming increasingly absurd - and it would not surprise me at all if someday that border would completely disappear, even within my lifetime.

Mike


----------



## Chris_533976

I think eventually countries will see how well Schengen works and dissolve borders. US/Mexico is a tough one but really having a border between US and Canada is silly. 

Imagine having a border nowadays between France and Germany. The mere thought nowadays of border checks and visas etc there is crazy.


----------



## Verso

babareebu serb said:


> Stupidity!Schengen exist from1997!And after 1999 to Scandinavia,and 2009 to east European EU!!Also now is Switzerland and Liechtenstein in Schengen,too!


Liechtenstein isn't in Schengen yet. First countries implemented Schengen in 1995, Scandinavia in 2001 and eastern EU in 2007.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area#Membership



babareebu serb said:


> He is fooler!Slovanac ti si prevarant!Smanji malo laganje!


You can see the border on the pic, and Austria behind it. Also, Austrian Slovenes chose to live in Austria on a referendum instead of in dictatorial Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.

And use Multi-Quote next time:


----------



## Turnovec

CRO-SRB border crossing(don't know the name of the place  )






























SRB-BUL border crossing at Dimitrovgrad-Kalotina


----------



## DELCROID

Some videos of the *brazilian-venezuelan* border:


Brazilian side - customs (entering Brazil):








The Bras-Ven border-line:











Venezuelan side / customs:






Brazilian vehicles queuing for cheap venezuelan fuel.







Customs:










More images of the bras-ven border pass: Post # 616, Page 31 - Warning: heavy, many photos:

( http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=23228516&postcount=616 )



.


----------



## pijanec

ChrisZwolle said:


> Hmm, I haven't really noticed it, even MK plates before me only had to show their passports, nothing else. I didn't saw a single car that was checked beyond a quick glance at the passports. And that for an outer Schengen border. I think the SLO-HR border is by far the easiest to get through as an entrance/exit from Fort Europe.


I agree it is easy to cross the border. But EU invested millions of euros in last two years to upgrade or reconstruct (even unimportant) border points with Croatia (some are still in process of reconstruction). I guess EU wouldn't have spent this money if in their plans would be that Croatia will join Schengen soon.


----------



## babareebu serb

Palance said:


> I wonder how the other countries were. For example: How Turkish poeple dit that when they drove from Netherlands/Germany to Turkey. In those times that journey went through Yugoslavia (which had not really though checks), but how when they wanted to pass through Bulgaria? Or did they always drive through Greece?
> 
> And countries which were more 'closes' than others (like Romaina for example), was that also that bad?
> I also wonder how people like there in Cered could easly cross the border to CS or not? Or from HU to RO (since those states were 'friends'). And RO-BG, HU-CS, CS-PL, PL-DD, etc.


I remember that Turks were travelling over former Yugoslavia,from Austrian border till border with Bulgaria,but over Bulgaria all parkings and restaurants by the road were closed for transit!You had main road as transit and it was not possible driving left or right to another towns,because they had police check points!


----------



## babareebu serb

Palance said:


> I wonder how the other countries were. For example: How Turkish poeple dit that when they drove from Netherlands/Germany to Turkey. In those times that journey went through Yugoslavia (which had not really though checks), but how when they wanted to pass through Bulgaria? Or did they always drive through Greece?
> 
> And countries which were more 'closes' than others (like Romaina for example), was that also that bad?
> I also wonder how people like there in Cered could easly cross the border to CS or not? Or from HU to RO (since those states were 'friends'). And RO-BG, HU-CS, CS-PL, PL-DD, etc.


I remember also,Rumanian border with former Yugoslavia was closed during the night in 80*s years!!It was not possible travel to Albania,everybody knows why!Sometimes their trucks come in Yugoslavia to export some goods(I don*t know what)but a few only in couple of months.Hungarian customs were strong,with complete passport control,but nothing especially.


----------



## KudaGila

*Borders and Dangers*

I have been looking at different stories about border crossings between the US and Canada and would like to add some observations.

A lot depends on well so-called 'enhanced' measures are working and catching people crossing the border. But I can I have read of a lot more security on the US-Canada border then some subscribers may be aware of. I would also like to comment on a few previous submissions.

Firstly, the US is employing a drone in the East of the country covering quite a large area. The question that must be asked though is that if it is covering an area of thousands of miles, how effective can it be? Another drone is planned for the future to cover more border area, but the same question arises.

It has been said that the border is delineated by clear strips of land, but this is not always an accurate fact. In one location for example, their are two houses very close together in an isolated part of both countries. There is a road that runs right up to the US border from Canada, and vice versa. The two houses are on either side of the border with just a 'hop and a skip' between both premises.

Crossing through heavily wooded areas I learn are covered by sensors. What about wildlife? Can one crawl through on all fours and avoid these detectors and how far South of the border do they run? I would think it pretty obvious that if you are walking (or even driving on a road that leads to an isolated community, that one would suspect that you would be stopped sooner or later by either the cops or border security.

Part-time border crossings will be monitored by camera and even if you got through in a car and avoiding whatever obstacles are in front of you), then you will likely be quickly detected due to the limited number of roads leading from border crossing points. You'd be picked up even more quickly if you tried to walk across.

Finally, the isolated border area between WA and BC (0 Avenue, East of Vancouver) is separated in part at least by a ditch almost 6ft feet deep (at a guess). But as there is a sprinkling of traffic either side of the border, and especially on the US side, someone is going to phone border control and get you checked out.

I've also heard of border guards on horseback combing the mountainous areas between the US and Canada.

All-in-all, security between the two countries is possibly more comprehensive then most people may realise. Motion and heat detectors, mobile guards, drones, cameras, Minutemen Project (local residents reporting suspicious activity), etc.

Even if you managed to cross the border then you still have lots of miles to cover between your crossing point and destination. How far can someone travel without being stopped at some point?

If one is really desperate to cross into the US from Canada, then obtaining the aid of one of the dangerous drug gangs (Red Scorpions, et al) that operate in and around major cities, may be your only way in. You then have to ask what price you would have to pay to achieve this and if you would be betrayed.

Having said all of this, it is likely you would want to get out of the country you entered and return via a similar illegal route. Double jeopardy.

Finally, and as someone who has studied terrorism for some time and how it is used as a weapon by the West to ferment war in other countries, and to justify possible invasions of other countries, I can say that it is not the real problem for either Canada or the US. Drug-running, and all the violence that is associated with it, is the big issue - not terrorism. Simply look at California to see why.


----------



## KudaGila

*US / Canada: Borders and Dangers*

I have been looking at different stories about border crossings between the US and Canada and would like to add some observations.

A lot depends on well so-called 'enhanced' measures are working and catching people crossing the border. But I can I have read of a lot more security on the US-Canada border then some subscribers may be aware of. I would also like to comment on a few previous submissions.

Firstly, the US is employing a drone in the East of the country covering quite a large area. The question that must be asked though is that if it is covering an area of thousands of miles, how effective can it be? Another drone is planned for the future to cover more border area, but the same question arises.

It has been said that the border is delineated by clear strips of land, but this is not always an accurate fact. In one location for example, their are two houses very close together in an isolated part of both countries. There is a road that runs right up to the US border from Canada, and vice versa. The two houses are on either side of the border with just a 'hop and a skip' between both premises.

Crossing through heavily wooded areas I learn are covered by sensors. What about wildlife? Can one crawl through on all fours and avoid these detectors and how far South of the border do they run? I would think it pretty obvious that if you are walking (or even driving on a road that leads to an isolated community, that one would suspect that you would be stopped sooner or later by either the cops or border security.

Part-time border crossings will be monitored by camera and even if you got through in a car and avoiding whatever obstacles are in front of you), then you will likely be quickly detected due to the limited number of roads leading from border crossing points. You'd be picked up even more quickly if you tried to walk across.

Finally, the isolated border area between WA and BC (0 Avenue, East of Vancouver) is separated in part at least by a ditch almost 6ft feet deep (at a guess). But as there is a sprinkling of traffic either side of the border, and especially on the US side, someone is going to phone border control and get you checked out.

I've also heard of border guards on horseback combing the mountainous areas between the US and Canada.

All-in-all, security between the two countries is possibly more comprehensive then most people may realise. Motion and heat detectors, mobile guards, drones, cameras, Minutemen Project (local residents reporting suspicious activity), etc.

Even if you managed to cross the border then you still have lots of miles to cover between your crossing point and destination. How far can someone travel without being stopped at some point?

If one is really desperate to cross into the US from Canada, then obtaining the aid of one of the dangerous drug gangs (Red Scorpions, et al) that operate in and around major cities, may be your only way in. You then have to ask what price you would have to pay to achieve this and if you would be betrayed.

Having said all of this, it is likely you would want to get out of the country you entered and return via a similar illegal route. Double jeopardy.

Finally, and as someone who has studied terrorism for some time and how it is used as a weapon by the West to ferment war in other countries, and to justify possible invasions of other countries, I can say that it is not the real problem for either Canada or the US. Drug-running, and all the violence that is associated with it, is the big issue - not terrorism. Simply look at California to see why.


----------



## Palance

babareebu serb said:


> It was not possible travel to Albania,everybody knows why!Sometimes their trucks come in Yugoslavia to export some goods


I remember when I was in Ohrid in 1982, I have seen a car with Albanian plate wich bas black, had a white font and a red star. Beacuse it was an 'expensive' car, It surely had to be from a very important person from Albania.


----------



## Szablo

I was in a two interesting places on the latvian-estonian border this month and I would like to show you some photos. 

*Ainaži LV / Ikla EST*

First of these places is located on the Baltic Sea shore. It is Ainaži on the Latvian side and Ikla on the Estonian side. When you are driving a car this border can surprise you, because there are not any buildings of border point, just a road sign "Estonia" or "Latvija". So it is 100% Schengen border.  But there is also something special - a stone pier from the road to the sea.

Photos taken on 8th of August 2009









One of the first houses on the Estonian side



























Welcome to Estonia









Welcome to Latvia









Here is the beginning of the stone pier.









The pier is on the Latvian side but the border is located just a few meters from it.









Latvia on the left, Estonia on the right









View in opposite direction, Estonia on the left, Latvia on the right









Estonia









Latvia









Estonia again









The end of the pier









The road from the pier to the main road









The border in the garden 









The observation tower









We are on the main road again. Here Latvia begins.









A boundary marker


















The first houses on the Estonian side and the shop in the dark house









Here you can see the sea from the road.

*Valka LV / Valga EST*

The second place is a city called Valka on the Latvian side and Valga on the Estonian side. It is one city divided into two countries. The border is located in the city center. It comes along and across the main streets of the city. As far as I know it was quite a big problem before the Schengen Area enlargement in 2007. Fortunately now the border is opened.

Photos taken on 13th of August 2009









The bus and the buildings are in Estonia but the trees in the background are in Latvia.









The first street is Estonian but the second street and the buildings are already in Latvia.









Entrance into Valka and Latvia









A boundary marker









A monument on the border









First houses in the Latvian part of the city









View in opposite direction (from Latvia to Estonia)









The first street is Latvian but the second street and the car are already in Estonia.









Remember to take a document with you.









General view of the border from the Latvian side









View from Latvia to Estonia









General view of the border from the Estonian side

Thanks for watching!


----------



## Czas na Żywiec

Thanks for the photos. I wonder how they controlled the border before Schengen. Poland had some places that were split by a border after WWII, but for the most part they were located on rivers so they were easier to control. (Gorlitz/Zgorzelec, Frankfurt an der Oder/Slubice, Cieszyn/Cesky Tesin to name a few) I'm not aware of any cities split on a non-Schengen border currently either with Ukraine, Belarus or Russia.


----------



## Mateusz

What does 'valka' means 

in polish 'walka' means fight


----------



## eucitizen

Czas na Żywiec;42007736 said:


> Thanks for the photos. I wonder how they controlled the border before Schengen. Poland had some places that were split by a border after WWII, but for the most part they were located on rivers so they were easier to control. (Gorlitz/Zgorzelec, Frankfurt an der Oder/Slubice, Cieszyn/Cesky Tesin to name a few) I'm not aware of any cities split on a non-Schengen border currently either with Ukraine, Belarus or Russia.


You had the divided city of Gorizia (I) and Nova Gorica (SLO) there was a fence before Slovenia entered EU. The train station is on slovenian side, if I am not wrong.

In Slovakia you have a village divided between SK and Ukraine. Only few years ago they made a border post there. I just dont remember the name now. I will check.


----------



## Szablo

Czas na Żywiec;42007736 said:


> I wonder how they controlled the border before Schengen. Poland had some places that were split by a border after WWII, but for the most part they were located on rivers so they were easier to control. (Gorlitz/Zgorzelec, Frankfurt an der Oder/Slubice, Cieszyn/Cesky Tesin to name a few)


Yes, situation in Cieszyn and Zgorzelec is quite different because the borders are on the rivers. Here you can find the border on the streets, in the gardens... On some old photos in the internet I have seen the fences and some closed streets...


----------



## eucitizen

Ok i found it, the village is Velke Slemence on slovak side and Male Slemence on Ukrainian one.
You can see how the border looks like here:

http://karpaty.prygl.net/zakarpati-hranice.php?lg=en


----------



## RipleyLV

Very nice photos Szablo! :cheers: Pity you didn't take pics of "Via Baltica" border though.



Mateusz said:


> What does 'valka' means


Drag, wear.


----------



## Palance

There are also some spots on the SLO-HR border where the border runs through villages and even houses. In Yugoslavia this was no problem, of course, but now it is, and certainly since SLO is in Schegen.

Interesting photos BTW. On the sign that you have to take a document with you: Why in Russian and Latvian and not both in Estonian and Latvian?


----------



## Qwert

eucitizen said:


> Ok i found it, the village is Velke Slemence on slovak side and Male Slemence on Ukrainian one.
> You can see how the border looks like here:
> 
> http://karpaty.prygl.net/zakarpati-hranice.php?lg=en


And this is how it looked likehno::

















And thanks to Schengen Ukrainian border looks almost like iron curtain:








source: www.border.sk


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I wonder why Fort Europe has easy Schengen borders and those which are not different than the Iron Curtain we know from the 80's. Croatia, Romania etc. shouldn't be a problem, but Ukraine and Russia are really a pain in the ass.


----------



## Zsimi

Qwert said:


> And this is how it looked likehno::
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And thanks to Schengen Ukrainian border looks almost like iron curtain:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> source: www.border.sk



Nagyszelmenc (Veľké Slemence) : 586/604 : Hungarian
Kisszelmenc (Малі Селменці): 185/200: Hungarian

:S


----------



## bozata90

About the situation with divided houses - we also had such cases with Yugoslavia. The border was rerouted somewhere in 1920(year, not decade) after the WW1. Sadly enough, now the region, where the border runs is an depopulated, isolated and one of the poorest in both countries. That is why these buildings are now ruins.

As for the iron curtain - there where never any obstacle between BG and YU/SCG/SRB. But the old net defenses from the times of the Warsaw pact, located like 10 km from the Turkish border, are still in use. The wood is cut on both sides of these nets, so an violator of the border can be easily spotted. If you want, you may see this in Google Earth - start from the Kapitan Andreevo BCP (they begin right east from the check point), or from the see (5-6 km. north from the village of Rezovo).


----------



## babareebu serb

Zsimi said:


> Nagyszelmenc (Veľké Slemence) : 586/604 : Hungarian
> Kisszelmenc (Малі Селменці): 185/200: Hungarian
> 
> :S


This is a road for illegal cigarettes transport from Ukraine!(Marlboro box flip-top is 7 euro!!)


----------



## Vrachar

bozata90 said:


> About the situation with divided houses - we also had such cases with Yugoslavia. The border was rerouted somewhere in 1920(year, not decade) after the WW1. Sadly enough, now the region, where the border runs is an depopulated, isolated and one of the poorest in both countries. That is why these buildings are now ruins.


It's village of Strezimirovci which is half in Bulgaria and half in Serbia. There are more divided villages by the border but Strezimirovci is the most famous. 
I agree totally with you about disadvantage of population. hno:


----------



## bozata90

bozata90 said:


> As for the iron curtain - there where never any obstacle between BG and YU/SCG/SRB. But the old net defenses from the times of the Warsaw pact, located like 10 km from the Turkish border, are still in use. The wood is cut on both sides of these nets, so an violator of the border can be easily spotted. If you want, you may see this in Google Earth - start from the Kapitan Andreevo BCP (they begin right east from the check point), or from the see (5-6 km. north from the village of Rezovo).


That is what I mean...


----------



## Szablo

RipleyLV said:


> Very nice photos Szablo! :cheers: Pity you didn't take pics of "Via Baltica" border though.


Thanks! I wasn't on that "Via Baltica" border because we decided to drive through Ainaži and Ikla to see how the border on the beach looks like. 



Palance said:


> Interesting photos BTW. On the sign that you have to take a document with you: Why in Russian and Latvian and not both in Estonian and Latvian?


I don't really know but in the second photo from Valga you can see the same sign on the Estonian side. It's in Estonian and Russian language, without Latvian.


----------



## eucitizen

In both countries there are large russian minorities, maybe that area is inhabitated by the russians.


----------



## Timon91

A few pics I took when I was on my way to the top of Ciprnik mountain (near Kranjska Gora, SLO).

1. Zoomed picture of the Würzenpass.










2. View towards the I/SLO/AT tripoint (Mt. Peč). The mountains in the background are in Austria.










3. View towards Rateče. The SLO/I border crossing is left of the village.










4. Zoomed picture of the border station.










5. Looking north, the Würzenpass can be seen here.










6. The Würzenpass seen out of the chairlift. I couldn't get the Würzenpass on a picture without a cable, sorry.










7. The saddle of the Würzenpass.










:cheers:


----------



## Verso

^^ Nice pics; it's W*u*rzenpass, btw (Korensko sedlo). I crossed the old Italian-Austrian border crossing the other day (the one beside the A23/A2 motorways), and was surprised to see the Slovenian flag too.


----------



## Verso

^^ I mean this border crossing:









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/11109421


----------



## Albaneren

Timon91 said:


> ^^It's still Russia you know.



Yes, but Russia is *very poor* compared to Norway.


----------



## Ban.BL

shpirtkosova said:


> Has anyone ever crossed Hungary-Serbia border, On the Serbian side you drive on a 2 lane highway for a while and they make you pay like it is a motorway toll! Unbelievable for a 1X1 road!! Why!?!


again hno: 
Serbia this, serbia that... you are obsessed


----------



## christos-greece

Verso said:


> ^^ I mean this border crossing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/11109421


The red-white-red flag its Slovenian?


----------



## PLH

Austrian.


----------



## Verso

A European not knowing European flags; tsk, tsk, tsk...


----------



## Timon91

At the entrance of the Twente university campus (Enschede) there are also a few flags: Dutch, German (understandable), Italian (weird) and Slovak. I haven't got a clue what that Slovak flag is doing there :nuts:


----------



## Ban.BL

It is also strange to see this border between Italy, Slovakia and Austria, is that possible?! Where do they border?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's a Slovenian flag 

This is a Slovakian flag:


----------



## Ban.BL

JK


----------



## Palance

Difficult is it sometimes, isn't it? 

Slovenia, Slovakia, Slavonia :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Not to mention Spocania


----------



## Verso

Ban.BL said:


> It is also strange to see this border between Italy, Slovakia and Austria, is that possible?! Where do they border?


What you see, are EU-, Austrian, Slovak and Hungarian flags; they have a tripoint. :lol:


----------



## Ban.BL

Isn't that Lithuanian flag next to EU flag?


----------



## Zsimi

LOL 

Flags: EU, Austria, Slovenia, Italy

Difference between the flags:

Hungary-Italy


Latvia-Austria


Slovákia-Slovenia


----------



## Verso

Austria, Slovenia and Hungary have a tripoint too.  When I was there, it was the only time I crossed the short Slovenian-Burgenland border. I also saw a total solar eclipse that day.


----------



## Timon91

The only tripoints I've visited so far are the NL/B/D tripoint and the A/I/SLO tripoint.


----------



## Thermo

Zsimi said:


> Slovákia-Slovenia


Why have they these wannabe-Russian flags?


----------



## ea1969

Thermo said:


> Why have they these wannabe-Russian flags?


The white - blue - red combination is considered as a Panslavic symbolism. You find them on the flags of Russia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia and Czech Republic.


----------



## Verso

And the Netherlands, Luxembourg, France, Paraguay etc. :lol:


----------



## Timon91

Yeah, same colors, just a different order.


----------



## eucitizen

ea1969 said:


> The white - blue - red combination is considered as a Panslavic symbolism. You find them on the flags of Russia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia and Czech Republic.


Actually the flag of Czech republic is former Czechoslovak where the blue triangle represented Slovakia, otherwise the real Czech flag is like polish one, white and red.


----------



## Qwert

Thermo said:


> Why have they these wannabe-Russian flags?


Actually Slovenia and Russia have wannabe Slovak flag. Russians just copied flag of WW2 Slovak Republic and Slovenians copied flag of nowadays Slovakia, but they at least replaced our coat of arms.:cheers:


----------



## Verso

Qwert said:


> Actually Slovenia and Russia have wannabe Slovak flag. Russians just copied flag of WW2 Slovak Republic and Slovenians copied flag of nowadays Slovakia, but they at least replaced our coat of arms.:cheers:


You mean the Slovenian flag of 1991 copied the Slovak flag of 1993?  The flag of the Socialist Republic of Slovenia (1944-1991) had the same colors. It was actually first exposed in 1848.


----------



## Qwert

Verso said:


> You mean the Slovenian flag of 1991 copied the Slovak flag of 1993?  The flag of the Socialist Republic of Slovenia (1944-1991) had the same colors. It was actually first exposed in 1848.


Damn Slovenians, how did you managed to copy Slovak flag even before it was introduced?

But, seriously. Before 1992 Slovakia had flag which was basically the same as present Russian flag or flag of WW2 Slovakia, but then to make it different from those flags (well, Slovakia is not Russia and it's also not legal successor of WW2 Slovakia) we put also coat of arms there. BTW, both Slovak and Slovenian flags were actually created in 1848 during Spring of Nations.

However, Slovenia wants to introduce new flag so this debate is pointless:


----------



## Verso

^^ With the same colors. :lol: The flag is staying the same actually.


----------



## Czas na Żywiec

A few photos from the Rainbow Bridge crossing between Niagara Falls, NY and Niagara Falls, ON. 


















New York in the foreground and Ontario in the background.









To the left is Ontario and to the right New York




































New York left, Ontario right.










We had to pay a toll of 50 cents to get back into the States which was weird....I've never seen a pedestrian crossing where you have to pay. My relatives got a little hassled at the border because they have Polish passports but after about 20 different interrogating questions they finally let us through.  And the Canadian side was far nicer than the New York side. When we drove into Niagara, I already thought that the city looked not the best. And once we crossed into Canada and walked around it pretty put its New York counterpart to shame.


----------



## mgk920

^^
Niagara Falls, NY is a very typical 'Rust Belt' industrial USA town that has seen better times (it's in a DEEP decline) while Niagara Falls, ON is tourist-central for the eastern Great Lakes region - and it is almost a law that one must have been recently married to visit it.

:cheers1:

I see that the Canadian customs guys neglected to ask for you to present a marriage license to verify a wedding date within the past 3 months.

:lol:

:rofl:

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Czas na Żywiec;42814506 said:


>


Looks like you got yourself some great company :lol:


----------



## Czas na Żywiec

mgk920 said:


> ^^
> Niagara Falls, NY is a very typical 'Rust Belt' industrial USA town that has seen better times (it's in a DEEP decline) while Niagara Falls, ON is tourist-central for the eastern Great Lakes region - and it is almost a law that one must have been recently married to visit it.
> 
> :cheers1:
> 
> I see that the Canadian customs guys neglected to ask for you to present a marriage license to verify a wedding date within the past 3 months.
> 
> :lol:
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> Mike


When we showed him our documents and saw that their passports were from Poland, that's when the fun started. Why are you coming to Canada? Where did you come from? Where are you going? I see...how long did it take you to drive here? What time did you leave Chicago? Where are you going afterwards? About approximately how long of a drive is to get to New York City? Where will you stay? How long are you staying there? When are you returning home? And on and on and on. But he was nice about it and I think his point was to trip me up incase I was lying so I would stumble on my words. The line was a lot longer to get back to New York but the guards there just waved us on through. He barely said two words to us before letting us go haha.


----------



## Czas na Żywiec

ChrisZwolle said:


> Looks like you got yourself some great company :lol:


We're the only two people in our family who really enjoy traveling and don't mind driving long distances just to see something and snap a few pictures. It's nice to have someone to share the travel obsession with haha.


----------



## wyqtor

Czas na Żywiec;42835406 said:


> We're the only two people in our family who really enjoy traveling and don't mind driving long distances just to see something and snap a few pictures. It's nice to have someone to share the travel obsession with haha.


Unless she's your wife, you should introduce her to Chris next time you decide to visit the Netherlands


----------



## Dantiscum

Verso said:


> Austria, Slovenia and Hungary have a tripoint too.  When I was there, it was the only time I crossed the short Slovenian-Burgenland border. I also saw a total solar eclipse that day.





Timon91 said:


> The only tripoints I've visited so far are the NL/B/D tripoint and the A/I/SLO tripoint.


And has anybody seen the polish-slovakian-ukrainian tripoint?
It's in the Bieszczady Mountains on the Krzemieniec Peak. 
Of course due to Schengen you can can cross the border between Poland and Slovakia as often as you want. Unfortunately you cannot go to the ukrainian side (well at least not more then few meters just like I did  )


----------



## Palance

I have only visited the NL-BE-DE tripoint and I have been as close as possible to FR-LU-DE (since that one is in the water). That's all.

Not many people know that the NL-BE-DE tripoint has been a quadraplepoint (does this word exist anyway?) in the 19th and the begin of the 20th century? The 'extra' country was called Neutral-Moresnet. See here for more details. In the area which is now Belgiaum territory, old bordermarkers can still be found.

Below the map:
Orange (1) is the Netherlands
Yellow (2) was Belgium in those days
Blue (3) was neutral-Moresnet and lies now in Belgium
Green (4) was Germany. Parts ot that area are nouw Belgian.
The line marked with the letter C is the nowadays border between Belgium and Germany, the borders BE-NL and DE-NL are unchanged.

The gray line B is a railwaytrack.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Palance said:


> a quadraplepoint (does this word exist anyway?)


It's called a "quadripoint". :cheers:


----------



## bozata90

I do not know about quadripoint between countries, but there is one in the US: the "Four corners" between Colorado, New Mexico, Nevada and Utah:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Corners.

I just found an article about such things in the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadripoint.


----------



## Alqaszar

There actually are no quadripoints on international boundary (despite the fact that it might look like on on larger scale maps where Angola, Zambia, Zimbabwe and Namibia meet at the Sambesi River in Southwestern Africa.

But a closer look reaveals that there are two threepoints several 100 metres apart in the river.


----------



## Timon91

From a distance, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia and China seem to form a quadripoint, but there's about 10 km between the two tripoints, so no quadripoint unfortunately.


----------



## Vrachar

Tripoint between Hungary, Romania and Serbia:


----------



## Morsue

Tripoint between Sweden, Finland and Norway, called Treriksröset in Swedish.


----------



## Verso

^^ The path looks broken. So they actually put it in the middle of the river?


----------



## MAG

All right, we must not be outdone. 

Here is the PL-CZ-SK tripoint. 
Access from the Polish side is very easy while getting there from SK/CZ will require a little bit of legwork but if you are fit enough, it won't be too bad. 
The actual tripoint is at the bottom of a brook as shown in Fig. 5.

Fotos are from the internet.









Fig. 1 - general map showing the location of the tripoint (schody = stairs, most = bridge, droga = road). The white triangles indicate the location of the three monuments in Fig. 3, which curiously are located on each country's soil rather than forming one monolith.










Fig. 2 - stairs leading to the tripoint along the PL-CZ border, which runs approximaltely through the handrail. Poland is on the left, Czech Rep is on the right while Slovakia is in the background.











Fig. 3 - tripoint monuments: CZ, PL and SK.










Fig. 4 - tripoint bridge looking from Poland towards Slovakia










Fig. 5 - the actual tripoint is located at the bottom of this brook.


.


----------



## BND

Vrachar said:


> Tripoint between Hungary, Romania and Serbia:


This monument (H-RO-SRB) was renovated fortunately:




























H-A-SLO:




























H-SK-A:


----------



## Rusonaldo

Border crossings Montenegro - Albannia


----------



## Chris_533976

Posted by a DJ travelling to a gig ->

Hungary - Austria border.


----------



## Markowice10

Greek - Macedonian (F.Y.R.O.M. ???) border.

Border crossing Evzoni. Route no. E 75.
















Border sign. 

In mirror: stars of European Union.

















To be visible remainde emblem of former Yugoslavia.


----------



## abdeka

Border crossings Algeria - Tunisia - Algeria by sakiet-sidi-youssef checkpoint.







Welcome to Algeria


----------



## LoKeY

Pedestrian "border crossing" between Nova Gorica (SLO) and Gorizia (I)

Italian side













































Middle square



























Slovenian side:


----------



## mgk920

^^
How long before the barriers at that square are removed with the Schengen enlargement?

Mike


----------



## Verso

^^ Even though both countries are in Schengen, the barriers are there to stay, because obviously they don't want to make a roundabout out of the square; it's meant for pedestrians. I think it's ridiculous how it's called differently in both countries. We should've named it "Europe _Half-_Square".


----------



## brisavoine

Border stone between France and Swtzerland. France is behind the stone, while Switzerland is where the photographer stood. Notice the bear on the Swiss side of the stone. It's the symbol of the Bern canton. The Bern canton used to have a border with France, but in 1979 the Jura canton seceded from the Bern canton and so it is now the Jura canton that is bordering France and not the Bern canton anymore, yet they didn't change the border stone.


----------



## brisavoine

Border stone between France and Italy. As you can see, France is still a kingdom ruled by the Bourbons, and Italy is still a kingdom ruled by the House of Savoy.


----------



## Verso

Old border between Italy and the Free Territory of Trieste:


----------



## Markowice10

Moravian-Silesian Beskids.
Old and new border stone: Czech Republic and Slovakia border.


----------



## vatse

Old border crossing of *Syria and Jordan*

Syrian border at Daraa









Entrance to the Jordanian border at Ramtha, actual customs post is few hundred meters further


----------



## Verso

urbanfan89 said:


> And to think not so long ago you would be shot for trying to pass those borders.


Borders of the Warsaw Pact yes, but the Slovenian (Yugoslav) border was always open. Yugoslavs could've crossed the border as often as we wanted and didn't need visas for Western Europe.


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> Borders of the Warsaw Pact yes, but the Slovenian (Yugoslav) border was always open. Yugoslavs could've crossed the border as often as we wanted and didn't need visas for Western Europe.


we did. i remember when my parents traveled to Spain in 1989, they even had to have transit visa for France. of course, not whole Europe was involved into visa regime


----------



## Verso

Hm, I thought we didn't need visas for them. But we didn't need them for Italy and Austria, which we border(ed). I've heard we needed visa for Greece.


----------



## Ban.BL

I think that we needed visa for Spain and Greece, but not or France for sure. 
Also with Spain it was process sometimes we needed visa, sometimes not.


----------



## Alien x

x-type said:


> we did. i remember when my parents traveled to Spain in 1989, they even had to have transit visa for France. of course, not whole Europe was involved into visa regime


Strange I traveled to France and Spain on different occasions (with Yu passport) in the 80’s and never need a visa:dunno:. X-Yu needed a visa to Spain while Franco was alive but not after.


----------



## Palance

I remember when I went to Berlin in 1987 that I would be the only one in our bus not to have difficulties crossing the DDR-border when I should use my YU-passport. But at the end, I travelled with my Dutch passport.


----------



## x-type

France had quite strong visa regime, i don't know Alien how you managed to travel without visa. i don't remember if they needed visas for Spain.
Verso, that's right that for I, A and D we didn't have to have visas (probably for more countries too)


----------



## x-type

i have just checked with my dad. they had to have transit visa for France, but Spain didn't require visa at all. it was in year 1988 or 1989.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

As a Dutchmen, you only need a visa in a few European countries;

* Belarus
* Russia
* Turkey


----------



## x-type

for Ukraine not?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

No, they abolished visa for Ukraine in 2008 I believe.


----------



## eucitizen

Ok you get Turkish visa at the border so it is more or less a formality. Some EU countries dont pay the feefor the turkish visalike Italy or Czech republic. Italians can go to Turkey with just the ID card.

Also Moldova abolished the visa foe EU citizens.


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> No, they abolished visa for Ukraine in 2008 I believe.


interesting. for us it is easier to get russian visa than ukrainian, ukrainan is more expensive and they are checking more things than Russians. actually, if you are coming to Moscow from Zagreb with direct flight, you even don't need visa if you are not leaving Moscow.


----------



## Djurizmo

YU passports needed visas for Greece since 1982, and for France since 1984. Other Western European countries were visa-free until late 80s. Actually, last country that required visa for YU was Germany, since early 1994.

Can't wait New year....


----------



## Timon91

eucitizen said:


> Ok you get Turkish visa at the border so it is more or less a formality. Some EU countries dont pay the feefor the turkish visalike Italy or Czech republic. Italians can go to Turkey with just the ID card.
> 
> Also Moldova abolished the visa foe EU citizens.


AFAIK Dutch people can also go to Turkey with an ID card, but they still need to buy the visa at the airport.


----------



## eucitizen

Djurizmo said:


> YU passports needed visas for Greece since 1982, and for France since 1984. Other Western European countries were visa-free until late 80s. Actually, last country that required visa for YU was Germany, since early 1994.
> 
> Can't wait New year....


I think Italy was the last one, in 1997, just before entering Schengen. I still remember serbs coming to Italy without visa till that year.

Well good news they are gonig to abolish you visa, but this free visa travelling regards only for Schengen countries or also UK and Ireland? I guess that Romania, Bulgaria and Cyprus will lift visa too.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

eucitizen said:


> I think Italy was the last one, in 1997, just before entering Schengen. I still remember serbs coming to Italy without visa till that year.
> 
> Well good news they are gonig to abolish you visa, but this free visa travelling regards only for Schengen countries or also UK and Ireland? I guess that Romania, Bulgaria and Cyprus will lift visa too.


Don't schengen visas count for the UK & Ireland? I'm underthe impression that for visa issues (but not passport control), that Uk and Ireland coem under schengen.


----------



## eucitizen

UK and Ireland signed only some parts of the Schengen agreement, mainly in the police cooperation and exchange of data.They dont recognize the Schengen visa.


----------



## Alien x

x-type said:


> France had quite strong visa regime, i don't know Alien how you managed to travel without visa. i don't remember if they needed visas for Spain.
> Verso, that's right that for I, A and D we didn't have to have visas (probably for more countries too)


I travel through France in 80,81,82,83(on 7 occasions) and had no problem.:dunno: I checked the stamps on the old passport.


----------



## wyqtor

For some reason, I always think of Al Bundy as a dictator when I see this guy...


----------



## vatse

Some more from Middle East

Border of *Armenia and Iran*










Border of *Turkey and Iran*














































Border of *Azerbaijan and Iran* in Astara










Border of *Turkmenistan and Iran*










Border of *Iraq and Iran*


----------



## eucitizen

Today Slovakia closed some minor border crossings with Ukraine, due to the pig flu epidemic. On the main border crossing there are doctors who will check randomly people coming from Ukraine. In any case the traffic was today quite low on the SK/UA borders.


----------



## Markowice10

vatse said:


> Some more from Middle East
> 
> Border of *Armenia and Iran*
> 
> Border of *Turkey and Iran*
> 
> Border of *Azerbaijan and Iran* in Astara
> 
> Border of *Turkmenistan and Iran*
> 
> Border of *Iraq and Iran*


Wow !!

Congratulations for the photographer !


----------



## snowman159

Very interesting! Thank you, vatse.

Did you go through these crossings yourself?


----------



## Verso

eucitizen said:


> Today Slovakia closed some minor border crossings with Ukraine, due to the pig flu epidemic. On the main border crossing there are doctors who will check randomly people coming from Ukraine. In any case the traffic was today quite low on the SK/UA borders.


I've heard Ukraine is closing its border. Is this true?

Great pics, btw!


----------



## CasaMor

*Morocco - Algeria (The world's longest closed borders, 1600kms, NO CROSSING!)*


----------



## Robosteve

CasaMor said:


> *Morocco - Algeria (The world's longest closed borders, 1600kms, NO CROSSING!)*


Doesn't Trans-African Highway 1 cross that border? I thought it was close to being completed.


----------



## CasaMor

Robosteve said:


> Doesn't Trans-African Highway 1 cross that border? I thought it was close to being completed.


That highway is under constrution but until the reopening of the borders there will be no transmaghrebine! 
There's no transafrican highway, many african countries doesn't have highways and aren't able to affrod that!


----------



## wyqtor

eucitizen said:


> Today Slovakia closed some minor border crossings with Ukraine, due to the pig flu epidemic. On the main border crossing there are doctors who will check randomly people coming from Ukraine. In any case the traffic was today quite low on the SK/UA borders.


There are also closings on the UA/RO border. The bigger crossings are the only ones with proper medical staff and equipment, so only they will remain open.


----------



## wyqtor

CasaMor said:


> *Morocco - Algeria (The world's longest closed borders, 1600kms, NO CROSSING!)*


That's really unusual. How did this came to be?


----------



## CasaMor

wyqtor said:


> That's really unusual. How did this came to be?


The Western Sahara conflict is the principal reason...!


----------



## vatse

snowman159 said:


> Very interesting! Thank you, vatse.
> 
> Did you go through these crossings yourself?


Nope. Just searched from flickr 

Only land borders in the area which I have crossed are all the borders of Lebanon and old border of Syria and Jordan.

And it's actually quite difficult to take any pictures on these borders. All the border guards are usually very angry about this


----------



## alekssa1

Abkhazia - Russia


----------



## Ban.BL

there is a border


----------



## Coccodrillo

eucitizen said:


> On the main border crossing between Italy and Switzerland, the finance police put this kind of camera. They will register every italian license plate, so it will allow them to check if italians are illegally exporting money to Switzerland. I think that the italian government is starting to exagerate. Who wants to transfer illegally money to Switzerland can always pass through Austria or France. Furthermore will bother those who have nothing to hide, when passing the border.


It's quite useless because there are also other border corssings with less control, like this one.


----------



## vatse

Border of *Kuwait and Iraq*





































Border of *Kuwait and Saudi Arabia*


----------



## x-type

Ban.BL said:


> there is a border


envy?


----------



## Verso

wyqtor said:


> There are also closings on the UA/RO border. The bigger crossings are the only ones with proper medical staff and equipment, so only they will remain open.


You're talking in plural. I thought there was just one (big) international border crossing between them (E85 between Suceava and Chernivtsi).


----------



## Palance

Since there are so many pictures now from the Middle East, hereby some own pictures of the UAE/Oman border from last Christmas (posted before, somewhere)


























And 2 pictures of the not-guarded (and not-checked) but fenced crossing ont eh road E44 from Dubai to Hatta which runs though Omani territory for some kilometres.


----------



## PLH

OK, but are they resoponsible for the possible demolition of booths?


----------



## babareebu serb

Markowice10 said:


> Wow !!
> 
> Congratulations for the photographer !


YES,extra,pics which not seen!


----------



## babareebu serb

Buddy Holly said:


> I see three photos of the current Syrian president and at least two of his father (or someone else from the regime) in this photo. Scary.
> 
> http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1126/536905142_18029e929f_b.jpg


What is scary,he's president,and all coming in Syria can know it...


----------



## eucitizen

Starting from the 19. December 2009, citizens of Serbia will not need visa anymore for Schengen countries, according to the Serbian government. It will regard also Macedonian and Montenegrin citizens.


----------



## babareebu serb

eucitizen said:


> Starting from the 19. December 2009, citizens of Serbia will not need visa anymore for Schengen countries, according to the Serbian government. It will regard also Macedonian and Montenegrin citizens.


What is with citizens from Kosova and their passports?:dunno:


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## eucitizen

Which passports? Kosovar passports will still need visa and who has serbian passport will anyway need visa as it was agreed between Serbia and EU.


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## Nikkodemo

- edit


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## Aan

eucitizen said:


> I might be wrong, but the problem is on slovak side to open that border for cars, right?
> I world war sodliers are buried in that cemetery.


No, it's forbidden from Slovak and Austrian side also.

There is few days old slovak article about actual situation on Kopcianska (Kittsee) street in Bratislava we are talking about here (you can uise google translate):
http://natankuj.sme.sk/c/5101411/ako-sa-dostat-cez-zakaz-vjazdu.html

image taken from cemetery road, on one side austria, on other slovakia









long story short:
1. if you are driving from Slovakia to Austria there is slovak road sign just before border, so you are allowed to go to cemetery by car
2. there is also austrian road sign forbiding driving with car on their side of border in directon to Austria
3. there is also slovak road sign in opposite direction (from Austria to Bratislava), but at older position before cemetery (police forgot to move road sign), so you can't go anywhere from cemetery once you drive there from Bratislava without breaking law, because you are allowed to go there, but not back to Bratislava or Austria )


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## Verso

Nice road between Mexico and Guatemala; is it new?


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## Cicerón

Some Spanish border crossings in Google Street View. 

*Warning: long post *.

*E/P (N-433)*

Portuguese side:









The _actual_ border:









Spanish side:









*E/P (A-49/A22)
*

International bridge, Portuguese side:









Entering Spain:









*E/GBZ (UK)*

N-351 road and the rock.









*E/AND (N-145)*

Spanish customs building:









Entering Spain:









Some *E/F* border crossings (the two main crossings (AP-7/A9 and AP-8/A63) cannot be seen in Street View though).

N-260, Spanish side:









French side:









N-II, in the_ international _village of Le Perthus/El Pertús. This part actually belongs to the municipality of La Jonquera. You can see the Avinguda d'Espanya, which becomes the Avenue de France where, for some metres, one side of the road is Spanish and the other one is French. This village is usually full of Frenchs buying cheap gasoline, cigarettes and spirits.









N-152 Puigcerdá (E)/Bourg-Madame (F)









Near Llívia, a Spanish enclave in France. No sings, but the pavement marks change.









N-141, Spanish side (Val d'Aran):









French side (Haute-Garonne):










Bielsa-Aragnouet international tunnel:









Spanish side:









Somport international tunnel (8,608 m):


















El Portalet:


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## 122347

deleted


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## ChrisZwolle

:ancient:

We have seen those pics like a zillion times now...


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## 122347

ChrisZwolle said:


> :ancient:
> 
> We have seen those pics like a zillion times now...


hno: i'm sorry


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## Sponsor

Rlly? I haven't seen those despite the fact I view this thread quite often (I think). 

btw. thx for uploading *costa*.


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## csd

*GB/IRL border*

Where the Republic of Ireland N1 becomes the Northern Ireland A1, south of Newry. The hard shoulder striping changes on the border, and there's a "Speed Limits in Miles per Hour sign", but nothing else that lets you know you've crossed over.


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## 122347

*Ajuda bridge*

_Ajuda bridge was constructed to connect the 2 Portuguese cities of Elvas and Olivença. Spanish army constantly destroyed it in way to isolate Olivença city from the rest of the Portuguese territory._










_In 1994 Spanish government try to made an threat with Portugal to build a new bridge connecting the 2 cities. Portugal refuse it, as that would be a recognize of Spanish soberanity over Olivença territory and is patrimony. 

In 2000 was made this new bridge completly build and financed by Portugal in way to show our control over the region and deny Spain soberanity._


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## snowman159

Ferry crossing between Egypt and Sudan. (Aswan - Wadi Halfa)





































(all pics found on google)


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## Nikkodemo

Verso said:


> Nice road between Mexico and Guatemala; is it new?


Yes it is..


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## eucitizen

Some changes were made on the border between Austria and Italy, on the Brenner motorway. The Austrians totally removed the infrastructure and built an overpass for trucks, to allow them to go from the train station to the motorway, direction Innsbruck. On Italian side they are building a shopping mall, probably it will be open next year.


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## christos-greece

In Spanish border photos, the Portugese landscape around its very nice; the same on the Pyrenees


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## brisavoine

Another one: the old border between France and Savoy until 1860.


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## brisavoine

Another interesting one. This was the border between France and Spain until 1660. Only history geeks now the exact location of this old border today. 




























These unsuspecting motorists have no idea they are crossing the medieval border between France and Spain. Precisely, it was the border between the kingdom of France and the kingdom of Aragon from 1258 to 1462, and then the border between the kingdom of France and the kingdom of Spain from 1493 to 1659 (between 1462 and 1493, Roussillon was temporarily annexed to France).


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## Qwert

Verso said:


> *cough*


Sh*t!
:badnews:

Of course it wasn't my mistake. It's just some SSC error, which causes misspelling of some words.:yes:


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## brisavoine

Another crossing point on the medieval border between France and Spain. What's interesting here is that the medieval border between the two kingdoms is still visible today, because it serves as the border between the Aude department and the Pyrénées-Orientales department. Notice the departmental marker and how the pavement is different on both sides of the border.










The departmental sign was placed a little bit beyond the exact border (you can see it in the distance in the previous picture). Notice how the Pyrénées-Orientales departmental council use a stylized Catalonian (Aragonese) flag in their logo.


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## ChrisZwolle

I wonder why Lithuania pokes into Belarus here...


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## brisavoine

^^Either it's one of Stalin's shennanigans, or it goes back to some old medieval borders in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.


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## brisavoine

Well, apparently the answer to your question is here. I wasn't able to understand everything. Perhaps a Lithuanian forumer could translate for us...


> 1939 m. rugsėjo 17 d. sovietams įsiveržus į rytinę Lenkiją Dieveniškės buvo prijungtos prie Baltarusijos TSR. 1940 m. sovietai pradėjo tremti į Rusijos gilumą lenkų ir lietuvių inteligentiją, eigulius, turtingesnius ūkininkus.
> 
> Sakoma, kad 1939 m. Kremliuje braižant Lietuvai grąžinto Vilniaus krašto sienas, ant žemėlapio gulėjusi Stalino pypkė. Niekas neišdrįsęs jos pajudinti, tad ir apibrėžę valstybės sienos linija. Pagal patikimesnę versiją, ryžtingai suveikė šio mišrios tautinės sudėties krašto lietuviai, prašydami prijungti kraštą prie Lietuvos. Jų prašymas pasiekė aukščiausius SSRS vadovus ir 1940 m. lapkričio 6 d. Dieveniškės grąžintos Lietuvai. Tai ir buvo padaryta Lietuvos įstojimo į SSRS proga.


Briefly, the area you highlighted on the map is called the Dieveniškės appendix, after the name of the largest town in that appendix. I checked, it doesn't correspond to any old border within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. After WW1 it became part of Poland. In 1939 Stalin annexed it to Belarus, then later it was given to Lithuania for reasons explained in the text above that I haven't fully understood.


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## Ban.BL

@brisavoine very interesting, you could maybe show us on map where those places actually are today.


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## brisavoine

Here you have a map showing where the pictures were taken.
Yellow square: post #2299
Green square: post #2301
Blue square: post #2302
Red square: post #2304


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## Varzuga

Botswana - Namibia border


----------



## DanielFigFoz

The border between Spain and Portugal before 1801


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Not the Soviet Union?


----------



## DanielFigFoz

No, you see those things all over the place in Portugal, with the end of the facism in the 1970's. Infact, Portugal is an official socialist country even though right wing parties are sometimes in power.


----------



## CasaMor

*Algeria ==> Morocco, crossing point (closed since 1994)*


----------



## CasaMor

*Mauritania ==> Morocco, crossing point*


----------



## PLH

Is this some kind of a race? The Transporter from the first pic is from Poland.


----------



## CasaMor

PLH said:


> Is this some kind of a race? The Transporter from the first pic is from Poland.


Yup maybe the race of Sahara! :lol: They across Africa through Morocco (Tangier) then they go to subsaharians countries!


----------



## Djurizmo

Since Morocco - Algerian border is closed is there a way to travel by car from Morocco to Egypt, for example, by car? And does someone have experience about driving through those countries (Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Egypt). Maybe this is not proper topic, but I don't know where to ask this kind od question.


----------



## CasaMor

Djurizmo said:


> Since Morocco - Algerian border is closed is there a way to travel by car from Morocco to Egypt, for example, by car? And does someone have experience about driving through those countries (Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Egypt). Maybe this is not proper topic, but I don't know where to ask this kind od question.


No way! For those who want to travel from Morocco to Egypt by car, they can take the ferry to Spain then drive to Italy, take the ferry to Tunisia and continu to Egypt! I think but I prefer the plane until the completion of the transmaghrebine highway and the reopening of the border between Morocco and Algeria!


----------



## Verso

I think there's ferry between Melilla (African portion of Spain) and Algeria.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah closed borders are sooooo Cold War-ish...


----------



## Palance

In the cold war, there were no borders closed for anyone, only some were difficult to cross for a lot of people. 
Except MA-DZ, are there more totally closed borders? Even North-/South-Korea is more accessible than this one.


----------



## CasaMor

Palance said:


> In the cold war, there were no borders closed for anyone, only some were difficult to cross for a lot of people.
> Except MA-DZ, are there more totally closed borders? Even North-/South-Korea is more accessible than this one.


No idea, MA-DZ is the world's longest closed borders (about 1600kms)!


----------



## Verso

Palance said:


> In the cold war, there were no borders closed for anyone, only some were difficult to cross for a lot of people.
> Except MA-DZ, are there more totally closed borders? Even North-/South-Korea is more accessible than this one.


China-Afghanistan (China doesn't want terrorists, it's not about high mountains), China-Bhutan (I don't know the reason; there are high mountains, but I can see a road or a path between them), Myanmar (Burma) has got closed border with Bangladesh, India and Laos; Turkey-Armenia (Armenian genocide), Israel's got closed border with Lebanon and Syria; Gaza Strip-Egypt, and perhaps some more. North Korea closed its border with Russia for everyone except Russians and North Koreans (but only some selected ones ), while I'm not sure, if Myanmar (Burma) has open border with China and Thailand for everyone or just for the Chinese and Thais, respectively (not for ordinary Burmese, of course). Its border with them is longer than Morocco-Algeria.


----------



## Markowice10

CasaMor said:


> No idea, MA-DZ is the world's longest closed borders (about 1600kms)!


The good example:

Where is the border? 

The border passage on the road: Ostrava (Czech Republic) - Racibórz, Gliwice (Poland).

















The road is in Czech Republic.

The garden behind the fence is in Poland.



















The houses from right is in Poland 
left side of the road - Czech republic.
The border stone - on right shoulder.


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## CasaMor

Markowice10 said:


> Where is the border?


----------



## Markowice10

CasaMor said:


>


*Are there possible Customs Union: Marocco, Algeria, Tunisia ?*

^^^^


----------



## CasaMor

Markowice10 said:


> *Are there possible Customs Union: Marocco, Algeria, Tunisia ?*
> 
> ^^^^


It's the Arab Maghreb Union with Libya and Mauritania but the political problems between Morocco and Algeria and the Sahara's conflict block the creation of the union!


----------



## snowman159

Verso said:


> North Korea closed its border with Russia for everyone except Russians and North Koreans.


Last year I read a report (with photos) about two Austrians who went to North Korea by train. (I think via Moscow and Beijing)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ via the Russian-North Korean border?


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## Morsue

I think that the closure of the border between Morocco and Algeria is only a political instrument, and there aren't any actual fences except near population centers and roads. Neither Morocco or Algeria have the means for constructing a 1600-km fence like between the two Germanys back in the day.



ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ via the Russian-North Korean border?


There was a link to that report in the RRA thread like a year ago. But since the search function is disabled it's kind of hard to find. I read that blog and according to the travellers, it was easier to get a visa to North Korea than to Russia.


----------



## Verso

snowman159 said:


> Last year I read a report (with photos) about two Austrians who went to North Korea by train. (I think via Moscow and Beijing)





ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ via the Russian-North Korean border?


Yes, and it was supposed to be illegal, but the North Korean officers didn't know it.  (while Russians don't care) Since it was found out, they informed personnel at the border that crossing for third-country citizens is strictly forbidden. They probably also shot the officers.  :jk:

Btw, is the short border between Algeria and Western Sahara (or whatever you call it ) closed as well? Looking in GE, there doesn't seem to be any road between them, although I've seen one on some maps.


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## CasaMor

^^ Of course, there's a part of the western sahara left by Morocco to the polisario, I don't know if algerians can across this part of the sahara but Morocco no way, there's a wall, the wall of the sands!


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## Verso

^^ It's weird that this wall is nowhere shown as some kind of a "border", even though it's impossible to cross it.  Even Cyprus has that dashed line drawn usually.


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## Morsue

Most probably political reasons. In essence it's just a cease-fire line since 1991, not a border of any kind.


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## Verso

^^ But there seem to be border crossings on this line. The N1 road between Mauritania and Western Sahara/Morocco isn't paved in the Polisario-controlled part of Western Sahara.  Driving from the Morocco-controlled part of Western Sahara through the Polisario-controlled part into Mauritania:


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## Morsue

There is a Moroccan border post at the end of the N1 at the wall, but the Mauritanian border post is not straight at it but instead at their own border. At this part of western Sahara, the no man's land behind the wall is truly a no man's land because the Polisario forces aren't patrolling this part of the desert. Since they're based in Tindouf in Algeria, in the northeast, they have no interest in this part of the country just now.

The reason that there is a border post is that Moroccan authorities want to control who leaves and who enters the territory under their control. They don't really care where you go.


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## snowman159

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ via the Russian-North Korean border?


Come to think of it, it was probably the Chinese-North Korean border.


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## pijanec

It was Russian-North Korean border.

Here is the link to the blog about this trip:
http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com/


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## panda80

^^And there is also a thread about it in the railway section:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=728480


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## DanielFigFoz

A25 on Portuguese side:










Spanish side:


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## x-type

Timon91 said:


> Isn't it even more funny that on German territory, there are 2 German stripes and 2 Dutch stripes? On Dutch territory they are all Dutch


claim a war


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## Morsue

I sense some national pride being hurt


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## Timon91

Not really :rofl:

At least the motorway is there now. Too bad that the N280 is no motorway, but at least it's 2×2.


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## Verso

x-type said:


> no, i mean that dashed line of entrance ramp. there are 2 those little lines in german style, and rest are in dutch style  ain't it funny?


It's funny, but that's because they're in Germany. It's actually funny that part of the entrance ramp is in the Netherlands and part of it in Germany. Does it happen anywhere else in the world?



Victhor said:


> This thread is too long to check if these pics have been already posted


Plenty of times..


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## Coccodrillo

Verso said:


> Does it happen anywhere else in the world?



Yes: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...39257,9.035356&spn=0.001259,0.002401&t=h&z=19

Also the railway station is on the border: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...830636,9.034224&spn=0.00126,0.002401&t=h&z=19

(Google's hybrid maps (satellite&roads) are not always accurate, but here it's quite correct)


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## ChrisZwolle

It also happens here http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...13798,7.045584&spn=0.004696,0.009645&t=h&z=17

The off ramp for a Dutch rest area is in Germany, while the motorway itself is in Germany for a few hundred meters on one side, then the border switches to the other side. In the eastbound direction, the off ramp is in the Netherlands while the parking area is in Germany.


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## Verso

Coccodrillo said:


> Yes: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...39257,9.035356&spn=0.001259,0.002401&t=h&z=19


Indeed, I always thought the border was in the middle of the border crossing.


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## Morsue

Timon91 said:


> Not really :rofl:


I was referring to our friend from Figueira da Foz


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## Timon91

Ah, ok. x-type was messing things up by posting in between


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Morsue said:


> I was referring to our friend from Figueira da Foz


:cheers: :lol:

Yeah, i've seen the Spanish ake the piss out of us to much with those photos :nuts:










The only current Portuguese border on googlestreetview.
(Near Marvão, for some reason there is streetview for 100m or so before the border in the middle of nowhere).


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## Valdepasillano

Morsue said:


> ^^ Olivenza/Olivença, currently administered as part of the Extremadura region, Badajoz province.


I'm from Badajoz, 20 km from Olivenza. Although you can find some Portuguese architecture in Olivenza, especially if you visit the walls or if you go downtown, this village was previously Spanish and so is its culture. Only elderly people speak a kind of Portuñol. Young people speak only Spanish and feel Portugal as a very nice although foreign country. With this clarification I want to point out that the declarations made by the American CIA some years ago, which classified Olivenza as a disputated area such as Palestine, have nothing to do with real life in this calm village.


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## philimonas

Buddy Holly said:


> It's a relatively small border point close to Prizren on Kosovo's side and going towards Tetovo on the MK side.


Thanks!


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## DanielFigFoz

Valdepasillano said:


> I'm from Badajoz, 20 km from Olivenza. Although you can find some Portuguese architecture in Olivenza, especially if you visit the walls or if you go downtown, this village was previously Spanish and so is its culture. Only elderly people speak a kind of Portuñol. Young people speak only Spanish and feel Portugal as a very nice although foreign country. With this clarification I want to point out that the declarations made by the American CIA some years ago, which classified Olivenza as a disputated area such as Palestine, have nothing to do with real life in this calm village.


Since the 1950's they have given up Portuguese there and there's no way the people there would prefer the poorer Portugal to Spain so it's going to remain Spanish, even if it had been Portuguese since a stage of the _Reconquista_ in, forgive me if I'm mistaken, 1292.


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## brisavoine

^^I've never understood that silly dispute anyway. Spanish and Portuguese are two sister languages. There is no border between these two languages properly speaking, they form a continuum. Olivenza lies in the area where Spanish merges into Portuguese and vice versa, the people there must always have felt somewhere in between, like people living on border areas always feel, especially when that border area is in a language continuun (and not a sharp language border like, say, Italian and German). So what sense does it make to try and assess if Olivenza people are more Spanish or Portuguese historically? :dunno:


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## brisavoine

Anyway, here is a true sharp language border. The mother of all language borders. 

It's just fascinanting to me that the people in the house to the right in the foreground are Romance speakers whereas the people in the houses in the background are Germanic speakers. How can people living so close to each other for so many centuries remain so completely separated by language? It's one of those things that has always fascinated me.


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## Eulanthe

Interesting photo, thank you!

The same situation (though a bit different) occurs in places such as Frankfurt (Oder)-Slubice - I'd be willing to bet that Germans in Frankfurt barely know any Polish whatsoever. I'm actually going there sometime soon to conduct some personal research into language there - the results will be very interesting I think.


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## binhai

how about the China-Russia border? I can't think of any sharper language border than that, there are completely different writing systems, grammar, and historical origins


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## brisavoine

BarbaricManchurian said:


> how about the China-Russia border? I can't think of any sharper language border than that, there are completely different writing systems, grammar, and historical origins


The people on both sides of this border were Tungustic people speaking a continuum of languages. Chinese and Russian are only modern superimpositions. It's totally different from the Romance-Germanic border where people speaking languages from two different languages families have lived for centuries next to each other. In that border area, the Germanic speakers are called Thiois/Tedesco by the Romance speakers, while the Romance speakers are called Waal/Welsche by the Germanic speakers.


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## x-type

also, all countries bordering with Hungary make strong language barrier, especially Croatia where appears very weak mixing of languages (only really few Croatian villages in Hungary and vice versa)


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## alexQ

^^ And also Romania which shares borders only with slavic-languages speaking countries and with Hungary


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## DanielFigFoz

brisavoine said:


> ^^I've never understood that silly dispute anyway. Spanish and Portuguese are two sister languages. There is no border between these two languages properly speaking, they form a continuum. Olivenza lies in the area where Spanish merges into Portuguese and vice versa, the people there must always have felt somewhere in between, like people living on border areas always feel, especially when that border area is in a language continuun (and not a sharp language border like, say, Italian and German). So what sense does it make to try and assess if Olivenza people are more Spanish or Portuguese historically? :dunno:


The think is is that:
a) The Portuguese have an inferiority complex wiht the Spanish
b)Unlike in Eastern Europe, the border between the languages is very clear and the languages are not really mixed up at all (i.e there aren't Portuguese villages in Spain and vice-versa).
c)In continuaiton of A, and because of A the Portuguese will not give up the claim of Olivença and Táliga, both Portuguese areas since the reconquista untill 1801. An example of this is that when they built a dam in the Alentejo, which would affect Spain, the Portuguese send a detailed letter, either to Madrid or to the Extremaduran government giving all the effects. The letter excluded Olivença and Táliga. In the end, the Portuguese send a letter titled "Effects on Spain and the Territory of Olivença". Also, Portuguese government offical maps do not show a border in that region. Another even bigger example is that the Portuguese started building a bridge across the Guadiana in the area without Spanish permission (I belive that eventually the Spanish allowed it after the Spanish police stopped the construction).

In the end, the territory will remain Spanish, as it has became totally hispanified and the people would never wish to become part of Portugal.


----------



## x-type

alexQ said:


> ^^ And also Romania which shares borders only with slavic-languages speaking countries and with Hungary


but you have kinda mixing of language in border areas


----------



## brisavoine

Another one, even more crazy.


----------



## zsimi80

x-type said:


> but you have kinda mixing of language in border areas












:nuts:


----------



## snowman159

Very interesting photos!




brisavoine said:


> Another one, even more crazy.


Then shouldn't the sign read Tabak instead of Tabac ?


----------



## Christophorus

Eulanthe said:


> Interesting photo, thank you!
> 
> The same situation (though a bit different) occurs in places such as Frankfurt (Oder)-Slubice - I'd be willing to bet that Germans in Frankfurt barely know any Polish whatsoever. I'm actually going there sometime soon to conduct some personal research into language there - the results will be very interesting I think.


You have to keep in mind that the german-polish border there exists only since 1945. The Oder river never ever was a border line until then. The border was established by a person named stalin. 

Today named Slubice was a suburb of Frankfurt (Oder) called Dammvorstadt deep inside of Germany until 1945. The polish people resettled to former german territories after 1945 were mostly from former east-polish territories now belonging to the USSR. Due to political reasons, which are not to debate here, noone besides the new border had an interest to learn the others language. 

Nevertheless, the results of your studies will be of great interest, feel free to contact me via PM


----------



## brisavoine

snowman159 said:


> Then shouldn't the sign read Tabak instead of Tabac ?


I know. The thing is, on the French language-Dutch language border, French tends to be the dominant language, so you'll see French signs on the Dutch language side of the border, but you'll almost never see Dutch signs on the French language side of the border. Another thing is these shops try to attract French clients because taxes on the Belgian side of the border are lower (for example taxes for tobacco and alcohol), so these shops are mainly destined to French clients and not to Flemish clients, hence the French signs. I was nonetheless surprised because I thought French signs were forbidden or at least extremely frowned upon in Flanders.


----------



## brisavoine

Welcome to France!

This one is interesting because historically it wasn't a language border. On both sides of that border, people spoke a Germanic dialect (South Franconian/Südfränksich, aka Pfälzisch). The French side of the border, however, has undergone francization since WW2, so although I've never been to Altenstadt, I believe people there under 60 y/o now speak French predominantly. This national border has thus in effect become a language border now.


----------



## abdeka

*Algeria/Tunisia*



Tunisian border post



Algerian border post


----------



## zsimi80




----------



## Gag Halfrunt

*brisavoine*, what's the name of the border town between France and Belgium you posted photos from?


----------



## brisavoine

Gag Halfrunt said:


> *brisavoine*, what's the name of the border town between France and Belgium you posted photos from?


It's actually two different towns whose urbanized areas have reached each other. The town on the French side of the border is Halluin. The town on the Belgian side of the border is Menen. Menen (French name: Menin), which was historically the main town (while Halluin was just a village in the southern suburbs of Menen), was actually part of France from the foundation of France in the 9th century to the Peace of Cateau-Cambrésis in 1559. Menen was again part of France from 1667 to 1706. During that time, the famous French military engineer Vauban built strong fortifications around Menen, part of Vauban's fortification works to protect the borders of France. The place where the border stands now (where the two photos were taken) was the southern bastion of Menen's fortifications. Nonetheless these fortifications did not prevent Menen from being captured by the Duke of Malborough in 1706 after a siege and bombardment, and officially surrendered by France to Austria at the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713 (but Halluin remained French, leading to the current border).

Menen was again under French control from 1744 to 1748 when Louis XV freely surrendered it back to Austria along with all the Austrian Netherlands that he had conquered in 1744, a peace move which greatly irritated the French population who did not understand why the king gave back his conquests (afterwards, Louis XV became very unpopular in France). Menen once again became part of France from 1794 to 1814 (the French had not abandonned their idea of conquering the Austrian Netherlands, of which Louis XV had deprived them in 1748, so the Revolutionaries took advantage of the European war against the French Republic to conquer and annex the Austrian Netherlands in 1794). At the time Menen was part of the Lys department, while Halluin was part of the Nord department. However with the fall of Napoleon, France once again lost Menen at the Treaty of Vienna in 1814 (but kept Halluin), and that's I believe when the exact border between the two towns was fixed. After 1814, Menen was never part of France again.

Interestingly, although Menen was historically a West Flemish-speaking town (and not a Romance Picard-speaking town like Lille or Tourcoing), at the 1947 Belgian census (the last census which asked questions regarding language use) a third of the population reported they could speak French. As for Halluin, I don't know if it was historically West Flemish or Picard speaking. By the 19th century, it was French speaking for sure. Initially a village in the southern suburbs of Menen, it grew a lot in the 19th century due to the Industrial Revolution and became a real town. It attracted lots of Flemish immigrants from Belgium who left poor rural Belgian Flanders to come work in the factories of Halluin and the rest of industrial French Flanders, and so a large part of the population (perhaps even the majority of the population) became Dutch speaking (in fact West Flemish speaking, because these immigrants spoke West Flemish dialects and not standard Dutch). Flemish immigration reached its peak in the end of the 19th century. However, the French Republican model of integration for immigrants meant that their children and grandchildren integrated with the French society and abandonned their parents' Flemish language, so today everybody in Halluin speaks French. So that national border is also a language border.


----------



## Markowice10

*We come back to Central Europe.*



After right side, the village *Šilheřovice* -they spoke a czech.
after left the village *Chałupki* (Racibórz County) -they spoke a polish.
But after both sides of the road -people spoke a silesian dialect.

























Funny, but the real border separated the garden.
Left - *Hať*, right - *Rudyszwałd* (Racibórz County)














Moravian-Silesian Beskids near Bumbálka.
The border Czech Republic and Slovak Republic.


----------



## brisavoine

We come back to Western Europe. 

Border between France and the mighty Grand Duchy of Luxembourg!


----------



## Markowice10

brisavoine said:


> We come back to Western Europe.
> 
> Border between France and the mighty Grand Duchy of Luxembourg!


Why was the building of customs office left?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think nearly all French border crossings still have customs offices, except for very local roads.


----------



## Nikkodemo

Awesome pics, I can't believe it!!


----------



## Markowice10

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think nearly all French border crossings still have customs offices, except for very local roads.


Just the opposite to France and Luxembourg.

Poland - Czech border.
The province road number 916: *Racibórz (PL) -Opava (CZ).*

Before year 2008. 

















At present.
Only traffic islands be left.


----------



## brisavoine

Ever wondered why it's called the "Schengen" area?

(note how the pavement changes when you cross from France into Germany; no country sign though, but it's nonetheless the exact boundary line)


----------



## brisavoine

The border between the French Republic and the German Empire from 1871 to 1918.


----------



## Eulanthe

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think nearly all French border crossings still have customs offices, except for very local roads.


Quite a few don't anymore - though one notable example is near Lille on the ...E17 I think. 

One very interesting place is the Spain-France border at Irun, on the bridges connecting Hendaye and Irun on the N-I (not the A63/A8 border). There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever there of there ever being a border control - in fact, I'm trying to find out if there actually was control whatsoever there. I assume so from the presence of a bridge, but..


----------



## snowman159

Eulanthe said:


> Quite a few don't anymore.


Yep. Apparently French Customs like to wait at the nearest autoroute toll plaza for their "victims".


----------



## Nikkodemo

The only bridge between Mexico and Belize:



miguelquirarte said:


> *PUENTE INTERNACIONAL MÉXICO - BELICE
> (El único que existe entre ambos países)​*​


​


----------



## Morsue

snowman159 said:


> Yep. Apparently French Customs like to wait at the nearest autoroute toll plaza for their "victims".


Or as in my case in September, I was checked at the Poitiers sud toll station coming from the N10. That's quite far away from any border crossing.


----------



## Eulanthe

Morsue said:


> Or as in my case in September, I was checked at the Poitiers sud toll station coming from the N10. That's quite far away from any border crossing.


It would seem that the original intention of Schengen (little/no checks at the internal borders, roaming checks within the country) is finally happening on a serious scale. 

But it seems that most countries are deliberately using Customs checks as an excuse to perform passport controls too. For instance, in France - it should be the Police Aux Frontieres that do passport controls, not the Douanes Francais. Likewise, the German Zoll are conducting checks as opposed to the Bundespolizei - although in Poland, the Straż Graniczna are doing most of the checks. 

Actually - in some respects, the rise of Schengen has been a bad thing for the traveller. I was travelling across the border at Kostrzyn recently and wanted information about German car regulations. Pre-Schengen, this would have been easy - pull up the car, visit the offices and walk away with the relevant information. But now - there's little to no information at most borders. 

I can't help but think that it would make sense for major border crossings to be manned 24/7 to assist travellers - how can you comply with things such as customs regulations if there's nowhere to even make a declaration to? Certainly before Schengen - you could always find out the relevant information and choose to bin things instead of importing them. But now - you're wide open to being caught in the country, especially as *ignorance is no defence*.


----------



## Palance

Eulanthe said:


> But it seems that most countries are deliberately using Customs checks as an excuse to perform passport controls too. For instance, in France - it should be the Police Aux Frontieres that do passport controls, not the Douanes Francais. Likewise, the German Zoll are conducting checks as opposed to the Bundespolizei - although in Poland, the Straż Graniczna are doing most of the checks.


The furthermost place I have been checked by the customs, was when leaving a restaurant at the R0, Brussels Ring (near Ruisbroek)_:nuts: (a quick check: papers of the car, passport and the question whether I was living in Belgium. That was all).


----------



## eucitizen

Palance, you know thepolcie dont have the righ tto aks you where you go or where are you vcoming from if you are a citizen of EU. This is one of your rights, they should know it


----------



## panda80

Probably they have this reflex, when i leave romania, border police always asks where i'm going.


----------



## eucitizen

Who asks you? Hungarian or Romanian? 
I will have to find this thing I see, but anyway you are right they are used to ask you, they have it from the pre EU era.
Dont worry Hungarians asked me when leaving Hungary for Serbia if I am going to Romania, only because I had italian registration on my car.


----------



## panda80

eucitizen said:


> Who asks you? Hungarian or Romanian?
> I will have to find this thing I see, but anyway you are right they are used to ask you, they have it from the pre EU era.
> Dont worry Hungarians asked me when leaving Hungary for Serbia if I am going to Romania, only because I had italian registration on my car.


Mostly romanian. This happens not only on the hungarian border but also on bulgarian one. Sunday I was in Bulgaria and they asked me where I'm going. However you can tell them anything you want, if you don't want to tell exactly where are you going.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

^^ One time a french police officer waved us through, the he saw my mother (whose mixed race) and ordered us to stop. He went through out passports, the took them, looked at our registarion, then allowed us to go. :crazy:

The Irish police were wall sitting down drinking coffee :lol:


----------



## Stainless

DanielFigFoz said:


> The Irish police were wall sitting down drinking coffee :lol:


I was suprised when entering Ireland that the Garda asked what nationality the people in the car were from. Also the Welsh police (Heddlu) got us to fill out departure cards. I thought being in the common travel area meant this was not meant to happen, especially as I could have entered NI from GB and crossed the open land border into ROI.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

^^ That does happen, but not often.


----------



## pijanec

I was also stopped by French customs. At 3 am...

Slovenian border police also commonly asks where are you going when you are leaving Schengen area.


----------



## Timon91

I never got checked in a car while crossing Schengen borders. I've been checked a few times while crossing Schengen borders by train (mainly on Germany's borders)


----------



## brisavoine

Back to borders! Behold the border between France and the mighty Principality of Andorra.

(PS: A cousin of mine worked on the border point one summer. She was sick the first two weeks due to the altitude.)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Pas de la Casa? As there was an uphill traffic jam into Andorra, I used the tunnel


----------



## Markowice10

Timon91 said:


> I never got checked in a car while crossing Schengen borders. I've been checked a few times while crossing Schengen borders by train (mainly on Germany's borders)


I never got checked in Schengen area, too.


----------



## Dan

I got stopped at the Öresund Bridge last year upon entering Sweden. A random check, and quite an in depth and detailed one too. But never once did they ask for my passport or any sort of ID!


----------



## Aan

eucitizen said:


> Congratulations Djurizmo for you country and MK and MNE being finally on the white Schengen list. You deserved it!


they are not in Schengen, they are just no-visa now

EDIT: I misread "white", you are right


----------



## x-type

Djurizmo said:


> I was in Oslo for past three days. Finally, traveling without visas. Passport control officers were very confused, because they haven't got information about no-visa traveling for Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia. So, they needed quick Internet education. Very funny situation.


get used  they asked me in Austria visa this summer (Graz airport), and i'm not sure if we even ever needed visa for Austria :nuts: 
not to mention GB or Scandinavian countries, i hear every while people who were asked for visas


----------



## eucitizen

Well but Croatia needed visa for while for UK.


----------



## x-type

yes, they were suspended some 2 years ago, if i remember well
edit: almost 4 years (22nd March 2006)


----------



## Djurizmo

They will learn... but it was great feeling after 18 years.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

eucitizen said:


> Well but Croatia needed visa for while for UK.


hno:
I can't wait for the day that the UK joins the rest of Europe with these things...


----------



## Timon91

It would be much easier to get more HST to the UK from Europe's mainlaind. At the moment every station needs to have a "border crossing" for passport/ID control, which is one of the reasons why there is still no Eurostar from London to Amsterdam.


----------



## panda80

Timon91 said:


> It would be much easier to get more HST to the UK from Europe's mainlaind. At the moment every station needs to have a "border crossing" for passport/ID control, which is one of the reasons why there is still no Eurostar from London to Amsterdam.


Why? Isn't it sufficient to have one station at the border for passport control? There the officer can enter the train and request documents and as well search the train for any suspect objects. That's the way it functions on Romania's borders.


----------



## KingGenti

shpirtkosova said:


> This is a new border crossing between Kosovo and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia...


Very nice.


----------



## Kubajzo

I come from Slovakia. When I was traveling from Heathrow to NY I was asked for visa when I told them that I don't have to have visa they had to check with superiors. They delayed me for a while but after that they started to apologize.  I wasn't angry. Slovaks traveling to US don't need visa from november 08 and I was flying in january 09. People get used to new conditions every time. 

About GB...I am not really sure if I want to consider them to be a full EU member. I mean the only time I hear about GB and EU in one article is when they protest against something.


----------



## Buddy Holly

Seeing as they're one of the largest economies of the EU and one of the oldest members of the union, I don't think it's up to you to decide whether they're part of the EU or not.


----------



## eucitizen

They can be considered a member of EU, but not a full one as they have some opt outs. But it is their right to decide how deeply they want to integrate into the EU, what is important is that they don't block the other member countries to go on with integration.


----------



## Kubajzo

Buddy Holly said:


> Seeing as they're one of the largest economies of the EU and one of the oldest members of the union, I don't think it's up to you to decide whether they're part of the EU or not.


Sure it's not up to me. I just expressed my opinion. I believe I have the right for that. What I wrote is what many people think, even people from GB. By the way I don't mean to argue here and You shouldn't take every word I say so seriously.


----------



## scragend

panda80 said:


> Why? Isn't it sufficient to have one station at the border for passport control? There the officer can enter the train and request documents and as well search the train for any suspect objects. That's the way it functions on Romania's borders.


As the border is in the middle of the Channel it might be a bit inconvenient for said officer to have to hang around in the service tunnel waiting for a train!

Why does the need for border control prevent Eurostar going to Amsterdam? If you board a Eurostar in the UK you pass through the border controls that are already there; it is irrelevant whether the train then goes to Paris, Brussels or (if there was such a service) Amsterdam. In Amsterdam they would need passport control booths but the main thing would be the security checkpoint - and that's to do with the Channel Tunnel, nothing to do with passport requirements!


----------



## -Pino-

scragend said:


> Why does the need for border control prevent Eurostar going to Amsterdam? If you board a Eurostar in the UK you pass through the border controls that are already there; it is irrelevant whether the train then goes to Paris, Brussels or (if there was such a service) Amsterdam. In Amsterdam they would need passport control booths but the main thing would be the security checkpoint - and that's to do with the Channel Tunnel, nothing to do with passport requirements!


The construction of those passport control booths in Amsterdam would likely take 20 years with a cost-overrun equal to at least three times the original budget. That's how things work in Amsterdam :bash:

That being said, if you'd check passports in Amsterdam, that means that also people travelling from Amsterdam to Brussels on the Eurostar would have to go through passport control. Despite the fact that you stay within the Schengen area. If you travel to London from Paris, Brussels or Lille, it will always be non-stop, so everyone who boards the train must clear immigration anyway. That would no longer be the case with an extention to in Amsterdam or (for instance) Germany. To make those connections feasible, I guess that the powers that be would have to get comfortable with checks on the train rather than on the station.


----------



## PLH

Oh yeah! 



*PL/D A4 Jędrzychowice/Ludwigsdorf*


http://www.mdr.de/sachsen/bautzen/6948715.html


> *Ludwigsdorfer Zollanlagen werden abgebaut *
> 
> Am deutsch-polnischen Autobahngrenzübergang Ludwigsdorf bei Görlitz hat der Abbau der ehemaligen Abfertigungsanlagen begonnen. Wie der MDR von Bauleiter Frank Kozber erfuhr, *wurde zunächst mit der Demontage der Stahlkonstruktion des Daches begonnen*. Das mehr als 40 Tonnen schwere Bauteil wurde mit Hilfe von vier Kränen von den Tragpfeilern gehoben. In den kommenden Tagen wird die Konstruktion zerlegt
> Das Zollamt Ludwigsdorf war im August 1996 in Betrieb genommen worden. Es galt damals als modernste und größte der insgesamt 16 Zollanlagen an der deutsch-polnischen Grenze. Nach Angaben des deutschen Zolls und der polnischen Polizei wurde der Autobahngrenzübergang von Schmugglern eher gemieden, weil dort sehr effektiv kontrolliert wurde.
> 
> (...)
> 
> mdr/ds/*20.12.2009*








































Before:


----------



## Timon91

Great news!

:dance:


----------



## Barciur

I am guessing they are taking this town but can somebody translate the article for us non-German speaking please?


----------



## PLH

Sorry for google translate, but I corrected it a little bit



> At the German-Polish highway border crossing near Görlitz Ludwigsdorf the dismantling of the former handling facilities has begun. As the supervisor of MDR Frank Kozber learned it was initially begun with the dismantling of the steel structure of the roof. The component of more than 40 tons was lifted with the help of four cranes. In the coming days, the construction will be demolished.
> The customs agency Ludwigsdorf was taken into operation in August 1996. It was regarded as the most modern and largest of the 16 border crossings at the German-Polish border. According to the German customs police and the Polish border guards smugglers rather avoided this crossing, because it has been controlled very effectively.


I hope the speed limit won't be less than 80 (on A15/A18 it is 60, but there is finally 2x2). Dynamic signs would be the best soultion anyway.


----------



## Cicerón

Spain/Portugal border. Second southernmost European border (the southernmost is Gibraltar (UK) - Spain).


----------



## Danielk2

both stones look more like milestones to me


----------



## Bobek_Azbest

Nope. The white one with the red top is definitely a border stone.


----------



## Markowice10

Bobek_Azbest said:


> Nope. The white one with the red top is definitely a border stone.


The border of Poland and Czech Republic. Such border stones mark a line of border:


----------



## BillB

ChrisZwolle said:


> The San Diego - Tijuana border crossing is said to be one of the busiest in the world. It has over 25 lanes i think.


Chris - You are close, there are 24 lanes. The farthest right lane is for buses, the next 2 are SENTRI lanes (for pre-screened commuters). The rest of the traffic can use up to 21 lanes.


----------



## Danielk2

Do you cross the border to México a lot??


----------



## BillB

Danielk2 said:


> Do you cross the border to México a lot??


I used to. Canada as well. I used to work with technologies used at the border so I've been to many of them.


----------



## BillB

*Border Trivia*

Here's a little brain teaser for all you border freaks. This is an old photo of a border crossing between El Paso TX and Juarez Mexico. Everyone knows the Rio Grande river serves as the border between Texas and Mexico. So why, if you look closely, is there a boundary monument on dry ground on the right side of the photo??? 
:hm:


----------



## Morsue

Is that point really in Texas? The Rio Grande is only the border up until the tripoint between Texas/New Mexico and Mexico.


----------



## Djurizmo

Maybe border crossing was made on some kind of dike instead on the bridge and river flows underneath. That can explain border stone.

Lucky guess?


----------



## mgk920

I do know that the border in the El Paso/Juarez area was adjusted in a treaty not too long ago to follow the center of the realigned Rio Grande.

Mike


----------



## BillB

mgk920 said:


> I do know that the border in the El Paso/Juarez area was adjusted in a treaty not too long ago to follow the center of the realigned Rio Grande.
> 
> Mike


Ding ding ding! That's right Mike - The Chamizal Treaty signed by President Kennedy did away with an area of land known as "Cordova Island", which was a little piece of Mexico north of the river that stuck into El Paso. It was created by a change in flow of the Rio Grande in the late 1800s following a flood.

The US border station and the boundary marker in the photo were located on a piece of land which today is Mexican territory. A redistribution of the Cordova area was agreed upon and the Rio was channeled so it will stay put, once again serving as the international boundary.

The the map below shows the land that was exchanged as part of the Treaty. The red dot is the approximate location of the former Cordova border crossing. These buildings, along with all others in the exchanged land, were destroyed and park lands were created on both sides of the border.

Most people think of border disputes and land swaps (as far as the continental US is concerned) as being ancient history. But this one occured during my lifetime. What's next? The Northwest Angle? Point Roberts? California?


----------



## nenea_hartia

Slovenia-Croatia (Starod – Pasjak); the second pic is not mine.


















France-Italy border at the Mont Blanc Tunnel:


















Denmark-Sweden border (or sort of) at the Øresund Bridge and undersea tunnel:


















Norway-Finland (Karasjok-Karigasniemi), into the far north:


----------



## Danielk2

nenea_hartia said:


> Denmark-Sweden border (or sort of) at the Øresund Bridge and undersea tunnel:


The border crossing is not at the tunnel or the toll plaza, but on the bridge a few hundred meters west of the cable stayed section.


----------



## panda80

nenea_hartia said:


> Norway-*Sweden* (Karasjok-Karigasniemi), into the far north:


You meant Norway-Finnland?


----------



## Danielk2

I think that the "always use headlights" sign is stupid, because headlights are also mandatory in Norway where you came from. If you don't have headlights on when you cross the border, you'd be breaking the law in 2 countries


----------



## Czas na Żywiec

Danielk2 said:


> I think that the "always use headlights" sign is stupid, because headlights are also mandatory in Norway where you came from. If you don't have headlights on when you cross the border, you'd be breaking the law in 2 countries


But that sign is informing what the situation of headlights is while you are in Finland. What if you didn't know that it was mandatory in Finland? If there was no sign, some people might think that it isn't mandatory and would not keep them on.


----------



## Danielk2

If you came from Norway into Finland, would you have any reason to turn the lights off then??


----------



## pijanec

To save some fuel? I always turn lights off where they are not mandatory.


----------



## Danielk2

on all cars that are sold as new in Denmark, the car starts with headlights on. It's legally required in Denmark.


----------



## x-type

Danielk2 said:


> I think that the "always use headlights" sign is stupid, because headlights are also mandatory in Norway where you came from. If you don't have headlights on when you cross the border, you'd be breaking the law in 2 countries


in that case there shouldn't be many of those speed limit signs at tables with general speed limits (because often those speed limits are the same). not to mention signs "end of motorway" and after 100 m "beginning of motorway" just because in those 100 m is border (lots of those at D-NL border) - this is even stupid to me


----------



## Dan

Same, in Sweden in my car there was no way to turn the light off at all! It was on both in the on and off setting.


----------



## nenea_hartia

Danielk2 said:


> The border crossing is not at the tunnel or the toll plaza, but on the bridge a few hundred meters west of the cable stayed section.


Indeed, but that's why I wrote "a sort of". I couldn't take shots there. Anyway, thank you. 



panda80 said:


> You meant Norway-Finnland?


Oops, sorry... Fixed now. Thanks for the heads-up.

Btw, is there any country in Europe where using the headlights on the main roads isn't mandatory ?


----------



## pijanec

Probably in most of them isn't mandatory.



Danielk2 said:


> on all cars that are sold as new in Denmark, the car starts with headlights on. It's legally required in Denmark.


With a lot of new cars this is also the case in Slovenia. But you can always turn them off.


----------



## Danielk2

x-type said:


> in that case there shouldn't be many of those speed limit signs at tables with general speed limits (because often those speed limits are the same). not to mention signs "end of motorway" and after 100 m "beginning of motorway" just because in those 100 m is border (lots of those at D-NL border) - this is even stupid to me


I think that the general speed limits should be shown at the beginning of an area with that particular speed limit. For example, a 50 sign should be on the same pole as a town limit sign. 80-sign on the same pole as an "end of town"-sign. And 130-sign on the same pole as a motorway sign.

I also do not think that a motorway should end because of some closed border checkpoint. It's still a motorway, no matter what side of the border you're on.


----------



## Danielk2

nenea_hartia said:


> Btw, is there any country in Europe where using the headlights on the main roads isn't mandatory ?


All countries south of DK AFAIK


----------



## x-type

Danielk2 said:


> I think that the general speed limits should be shown at the beginning of an area with that particular speed limit. For example, a 50 sign should be on the same pole as a town limit sign. 80-sign on the same pole as an "end of town"-sign. And 130-sign on the same pole as a motorway sign.


don't you find it too expensive?


----------



## nenea_hartia

Danielk2 said:


> All countries south of DK AFAIK


Thanks. But that's not the case with Romania and Hungary for example.


----------



## pijanec

Danielk2 said:


> I think that the general speed limits should be shown at the beginning of an area with that particular speed limit. For example, a 50 sign should be on the same pole as a town limit sign. 80-sign on the same pole as an "end of town"-sign.


That would be stupid and waste of money and resources as we in Europe have general speed limits. When you come into village marked by a sign, it is 50 km/h speed limit, when you are out it is automatically 90.


----------



## Danielk2

During my trip from Dronninglund to Bornholm in October last year, i drove from Malmö to Ystad (that's in Sweden), much of it through small towns, and a little of it on the E65. I saw that some towns have 50 signs within the town limits, and at the beginning of motorways, a 110 sign is posted on the same pole as the motorway sign.


----------



## pijanec

I honestly don't know why that would be needed. Motorway sign automatically means 130 km/h, town sign automatically means 50 km/h.


----------



## nenea_hartia

^ Not necessarily:
http://www.europe.org/speedlimits.html


----------



## Danielk2

I do know that all countries uses general speed limits.


----------



## Morsue

Sweden does in fact not have general speed limits any more. The motorway sign used to automatically inidicate a speed limit of 110, but since the introduction of a new speed limit scheme with 20, 30, 40, 50...., 100, 110 and 120 a change in speed limit needs to always be posted. For intstance, a motorway sign should be accompanied with a speed limit sign, no matter what the limit is.


----------



## Danielk2

nenea_hartia said:


> ^ Not necessarily:
> http://www.europe.org/speedlimits.html


The danish motorway limit is wrong. Danish motorway speed limits was raised from 110 to 130 in '04.


----------



## brisavoine

BillB said:


> Most people think of border disputes and land swaps (as far as the continental US is concerned) as being ancient history. But this one occured during my lifetime.


France gave some land to Andorra in 2001 too. Greedy Andorrans... hno:

The French municipality of Porta, a part of whose territory was ceded to Andorra on that occasion, protested and filed a lawsuit saying the cession was against the French Constitution, but the Conseil d'Etat refused to hear the case.

Even more interestingly, in 1984 France ceded to Germany 7 km² of the Mundat Forest near Wissembourg (the Germans had always refused to acknowledge French sovereignty over that area). Of course the people in Wissembourg were quite unhappy (that area in the Mundat Forest had been given to them by Pepin the Short, the father of Charlemagne, in 760).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

nenea_hartia said:


> Btw, is there any country in Europe where using the headlights on the main roads isn't mandatory ?


Only "Old Europe".


----------



## nenea_hartia

Danielk2 said:


> The danish motorway limit is wrong. Danish motorway speed limits was raised from 110 to 130 in '04.


My bad. Here's an updated list (this time with Romania included :lol. I hope this time everything is OK.


----------



## Morsue

nenea_hartia said:


> My bad. Here's an updated list (this time with Romania included :lol. I hope this time everything is OK.


And for Sweden the limit is 120 on a lot of motorway stretches.


----------



## Danielk2

It says "110 or 130", that's wrong as well. General is 130, on more than half of the motorway network, there's a speed limit of 110 or lower. This speed limit is posted on signs, and therefore not a general speed limit.

NOTE: I do know that i'm really a pain in the lower back, but that's the world's problem


----------



## Danielk2

Morsue said:


> And for Sweden the limit is 120 on a lot of motorway stretches.


But that's not a general speed limit. The standard is 110


----------



## Timon91

They also had some special EU funding to repave the A4 (west of Wroclaw), right? Since they only got money to _repave_ it, not _rebuild_ it, it's also one of the reasons why it hasn't got shoulders yet, isn't it? If so, why can't they get this for the A18?


----------



## brisavoine

pijanec said:


> Politicians in this area are very irresponsible with the money (look at Dutch or British islands) plus people have everything, so no need for autonomy.


Well, the situation there is in fact far from perfect. Unemployment is high, revenus are lower than the European average, and living costs are very high (products cost more than in Paris and London). Some serious reforms are needed. The local politicians have been unable to develop these territories, their economic policies are ineffective, and Paris is too far for the central government to feel really concerned, that's another issue. The local politicians said more autonomy would help them design the right policies for these territories, even though in fact the current political status of full integration with France already enables the local politicians to craft some local policies for the local problems of these territories. In reality these autonomy referendums were just a sham. For some pro-independence politicians it was just a way to push for independence in a covert way (they know the vast majority of the population is opposed to independence, so they thought autonomy would be a clever first step towards independence without making the people too scared). For other politicians it was just a way to hide their incompetence. As if a new, more autonomous status was going to solve everything! The reality is, whatever the status, it's the bad ineffective politicians there who are the problem.

I think the citizens in these territories saw it through, they rightly understood that autonomy would be perceived abroad as, like it or not, distancing themselves from France, which is not what they want, and they also understood that the problem is the local politicians and their ineffective policies, not the status of the territories. It's like the EU, you can change the EU treaties as often as you want (Amsterdam, Nice, Lisbon), if the politicians are bad at managing the economy, the economic situation will be bad, whatever the constitutional status of the EU.


----------



## PLH

Timon91 said:


> They also had some special EU funding to repave the A4 (west of Wroclaw), right? Since they only got money to _repave_ it, not _rebuild_ it, it's also one of the reasons why it hasn't got shoulders yet, isn't it? If so, why can't they get this for the A18?


You're right, but they decided not to do so in order not to start the whole procedure twice. 
It's hard to say whether it is is good or bad, what's for sure is that they should have covered it with asphalt more than 10 years ago, but noone cared at that time...


----------



## Tego

*Bulgaria and Greece will launch new border crossing point*









_Kulata border crossing point_

Bulgarian Deputy Foreign Minister Marin Raikov and his Greek counterpart Dimitris Droutsas signed an agreement in Athens on January 11 2010 paving the way for the opening of the Zlatograd-Termes border crossing point between the two neighbouring countries, the Bulgarian news agency (BTA) reported.

The new checkpoint will be inaugurated officially by Bulgaria's Prime Minister Boiko Borissov and his Greek counterpart, George Papandreou, on January 15 2010.

The decision follows people's desire on both sides of the border for faster and easier communication, Droutsas was quoted as saying by BTA.

According to Raikov, the initiative for the new border checkpoint had been in the pipeline for many years, hence it was only a matter of time before both countries finally agreed to proceed.

"Considering the number of Greeks who ski in Pamporovo, and the number of Bulgarians shopping in Athens, this will only stimulate further economic and tourist development in the region," Raikov was quoted as saying.

Source: http://sofiaecho.com/2010/01/12/840897_bulgaria-and-greece-will-launch-new-border-crossing-point


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## panda80

^^Very nice!Just 3 border crossing points between Greece and Bulgaria on such a long border were really very few.


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## x-type

what is with route Rudozem - Xanthi? there would be nice to ahve border crossing ( ithink that one is also under construction, am i right?)


----------



## philimonas

This is about Rudozem - Xanthi. So I believe it is not due very soon!

There is also another future border crossing (see here), north of Komotini and south of Kirkovo.

I have also read about yet another border crossing, here (Kyprinos - Ivaylovgrad). As you can see, there is already a road there, on both sides.
I have found this article (Greek only), which says that the border was opened for one day on February 14th, 2009, for a celebration of St. Triphon in Bulgaria! However, I do not know if/when a border crossing will permanently open there.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

What border crossings with checks are actually better outside the peak days, major border crossings with bigger facilities, or minor border crossings with less traffic, but also less facilities? For instance, if you want to go from Hungary to Serbia or Romania, is it better to use the major border crossings, or a secondary one?


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> What border crossings with checks are actually better outside the peak days, major border crossings with bigger facilities, or minor border crossings with less traffic, but also less facilities? For instance, if you want to go from Hungary to Serbia or Romania, is it better to use the major border crossings, or a secondary one?


my experience - major border crossings. i have told it allready, the worst thing i had to show at large border crossing was to open my truck. sometimes they don't even ask me to stop or to show documents.
on the other hand, i don't remember when i have passed less important border crossing without detailed check of documents, opening truck, asking where was i going, even detailed checks of whole car.
exeption was border crossing with Serbia (Ilok - Bačka Palanka), i have passed it only with documents' control (and Serbian officer asked me where was i going because if i went only to Bačka Palanka, they wouldn't ask me for international insurance, otherwise they asked me for it)


----------



## Djurizmo

ChrisZwolle said:


> What border crossings with checks are actually better outside the peak days, major border crossings with bigger facilities, or minor border crossings with less traffic, but also less facilities? For instance, if you want to go from Hungary to Serbia or Romania, is it better to use the major border crossings, or a secondary one?


From my expirience, major border crossings. Horgos - Kelebia situation: Horgos - major border crossing, renewed few years ago, 10+ lanes.... In most cases only document check and "open the trunk" demand.

On Kelebia, last year, I was traveling by mini-van, with 5 of my friends. Looking at reaction of customs officers, we were first vehicle in hours. After document check they asked as to park the van in some garage. Then we had detailed check of every piece of baggage and whole mini-van. In total 55 minutes on border.

Comparing with Horgos - max 15 min.


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## nenea_hartia

It depends, I think. For instance, last summer I decided to try another border crossing between Romania and Hungary. Not the large one of Borş-Ártánd (on E60) but the tiny border crossing of Urziceni-Vállaj. Our car was the only car there. As you probably know, in every border crossing between Romania and Hungary there is only one checkpoint, a common one. The Hungarian officers didn't even bother to leave the custom's office and the Romanian officer asked us where are we going. When we said "we're going to Nordkapp, Norway" he was pretty impressed but he still asked us very polite to open the caravan's door. But I think it was a personal curiosity because he stood outside and he looked inside through the open doors. And then thanked us and wished us good luck.
Everything took about 3 minutes. Probably at Borş-Ártánd the border control could have been much faster but because it is a busy border crossing I'm sure we have been forced to wait behind at least 8-10 cars if no more.


----------



## BND

^^ I had exactly the same experience 
I was going by car with 3 of my friends and we entered Romania at Vállaj/Urziceni. It was about 8 in the morning and mine was the only car around. Only a Romanian officer appeared, and after checking the passports he asked me to open the trunk. He couldn't see much as it was packed full, so he asked "Only clothes?" when I answered yes, what was more or less true apart from a few bottles of booze. He then asked where we were going. The officer was very friendly, spoke Hungarian fluently, told me where to buy road toll sticker and even wished us fun for the New Year's Eve 
On the way back I took the big Borş-Ártánd crossing. There were 2 lanes for EU passports and one for all passports. The all passports lane was much shorter so I took it, there was about 5 minutes waiting time. A Romanian officer and a Hungarian police woman stood next to each other and checked the passports together, then let us go.


----------



## nenea_hartia

nenea_hartia said:


> [...]The Hungarian officers didn't even bother to leave the custom's office and the Romanian officer asked us where are we going.[...]





BND said:


> Only a Romanian officer appeared[...]


Romanian officers are so hard-working... :lol: :jk:


----------



## eucitizen

My experience is that going to Serbia form Hungary is ebtter the motorway border crossing Rozke-Horgos, usually the hungarians are very fast, the same for the serb officers. On the contrary, when you want to sue this border crossing to enter hugnary, then you can wait for at least 20 minutes, hungarians custom officers check every car and you uusally open the trunk.


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## snowman159

I remember crossing at a small border post between Hungary and Slovakia in pre-Schengen times. As we were leaving the last town before the border we were pulled over by Hungarian border police. They checked passports, looked in the trunk, and then let us go. Took less than 5min. At the border crossing - we were the only car - the Slovak officer just stamped our passports and waved us through.


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## mirza-sm

*Bosnia & Herzegovina border crossings*

Our border crossing mostly have the same look, here goes

*Granični Prijelaz Izačić* | Bosnia & Herzegovina - Croatia









*Granični Prijelaz Bosanski Šamac* | Bosnia & Herzegovina - Croatia









*Granični Prijelaz Neum* | Bosnia & Herzegovina - Croatia (our only coastal city)









*Granični Prijelaz Maljevac* | Bosnia & Herzegovina - Croatia









*Granični Prijelaz Kamensko* | Bosnia & Herzegovina - Croatia









*Granični Prijelaz Karakaj* | Bosnia & Herzegovina - Serbia


















*Granični Prijelaz Rača* | Bosnia & Herzegovina - Serbia









*Granični Prijelaz Zvornik* | Bosnia & Herzegovina - Serbia 













































kay:


----------



## KONSTANTINOUPOLIS

philimonas said:


> Greek border with FYROM at Niki(GR)-Medzitlija(FYROM)
> location
> 
> The current Greek border building (facing Greece):
> 
> 
> The new Greek border building (facing FYROM):
> 
> 
> In the meantime it is possible that the new building is operational, I was there this summer.


Thanks, i was looking for some photos of the new building.


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## ChrisZwolle

Probably the most epic motorway border crossing in Europe; Walserberg near Salzburg. Austria to Germany.


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## Morsue

^^ Especially at winter. Wow!


----------



## Timon91

When I was there last summer it was raining


----------



## Dantiscum

^^











BTW, there aren't many examples of such things happening between two EU-countrie, are there?
One more photo:


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## Christophorus

^^

The restaurant table is very funny, for the non-german understanding readers, it means something like pizza and pasta 24/7 :lol:

Back to topic and Dantiscums question, no i guess there are not many examples like this, but others which are much more positive. I.e. crossing the Oder bridge in Frankfurt (Oder) a very large billboard welcomes one in Poland with the message "Sie haben die Preisgrenze überschritten" which means you just crossed the price border. (When i was there a few days ago, unfortunately i forgot my camera :bash: )

I remember signs while the division of Germany, when approaching the GDR border from the west, which gave messages like: never forget, you are in the middle of Germany and similar.


----------



## wyqtor

Christophorus said:


> ^^
> 
> The restaurant table is very funny, for the non-german understanding readers, it means something like pizza and pasta 24/7 :lol:


It was probably put there in retaliation, by a pro-Italian  .



> Strange that the Italians don't bother about that sign. For example Romania would never allow a "Transylvania is not Romania" sign on the Hungarian border...


Well, the sign is on the Austrian side of the border, after all. And honestly I don't think the angry parties can do much about it except complain. I also think that such signs should be allowed, as a consequence of the freedom of expression that's assumed to exist in the EU.


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## desertpunk

Santa Fe Bridge, El Paso/ CD Juarez:

*http://tti.tamu.edu/publications/researcher/v43n1/images/santafe_bridge_lg.jpg*


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## bogdymol

desertpunk said:


> Santa Fe Bridge, El Paso/ CD Juarez:
> 
> *http://tti.tamu.edu/publications/researcher/v43n1/images/santafe_bridge_lg.jpg*


Isn't Mexico's population going down? Because in all the photos from Mexico/US border crossings there are hundreds of cars waiting to pass into the US. :lol:


----------



## 1772

BND said:


> ^^ Strange that the Italians don't bother about that sign. For example Romania would never allow a "Transylvania is not Romania" sign on the Hungarian border...


Relations between austrians and italians are way better than between hungarians and romanians...


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## Cicerón

More of this border:



Kampflamm said:


>





Verso said:


>


What does "Diese Tafeln wurden mit Spenden aus Österreich finanziert" mean?


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## ChrisZwolle

These signs are financed by funding from Austria.


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## TohrAlkimista

Dantiscum said:


> I know the history of this region. I also were in Bolzen in december last year and spoke to a german speaking person about the situation. And believe me, such attitude is not representative to the most of the german citizens of south Tirol. It's much more an effect of right wing pro-austrian political actions.
> What's interesting, according to the person I spoke to, the german speaking people don't consider themselves as "austrians", but more like as "germans" or even "german speaking italians".


Indeed! Someone who speaks proper about this!

Those are a bunch of right-wing parties, idiots as much as those right-wing pro-Italy parties denying the identity of the german-speaking population of the country.

The point is they're so few, you just see them across election times.


BND said:


> ^^ Strange that the Italians don't bother about that sign. For example Romania would never allow a "Transylvania is not Romania" sign on the Hungarian border...


The strong economic and political relationships between Italy and Austria are much important, than a little group of idiots.


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## x-type

i would really never expect something like that from Austria!


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## ChrisZwolle

This sign doesn't necessarily mean it's endorsed by the Austrian government. Maybe NGO's.


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## x-type

ok, i expressed myself wrong - i would never expect something like that in Austria!


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## Dantiscum

The hole case is becoming even more interesting. The land of Tirol has decided to forbide this sign and not to allow to put it at the border once more because they noticed, that Südtirol in fact is currently Italy (if someone likes it or not), so the text on the sign is false. Plus it could not be considered as a "welcome sign", so there's no place for it at the border


----------



## snowman159

Dantiscum said:


> The hole case is becoming even more interesting. The land of Tirol has decided to forbide this sign and not to allow to put it at the border once more...


That's a good idea. The sign makes Austrians look like idiots. And as was said above, it's only a small fringe group who think that way. 



> ... because they noticed, that Südtirol in fact is currently Italy (if someone likes it or not), so the text on the sign is false.


I'm sure everyone in Austria was already aware of that, only a few nutjobs are unhappy about it. :lol:


----------



## nenea_hartia

BND said:


> ^^ Strange that the Italians don't bother about that sign. For example Romania would never allow a "Transylvania is not Romania" sign on the Hungarian border...


Things have changed a lot lately in Romania. I can agree, the Romanian government and some newspapers and televisions wouldn't be very happy with such a sign on the Hungarian side of the border but I don't think the ordinary people would care very much. Me, for example, I wouldn't. I traveled many times in Hungary and for me is an admirable country with great and kind people. Every time I felt like home there. 
Sometimes history can be very generous with some and very unfair with others, but I think time and the EU integration will heal the wounds of the past between RO and HU, as they've already healed the wounds between other member states. And such signs will remain something we will joke about.


----------



## eucitizen

nenea_hartia said:


> Things have changed a lot lately in Romania. I can agree, the Romanian government and some newspapers and televisions wouldn't be very happy with such a sign on the Hungarian side of the border but I don't think the ordinary people would care very much. Me, for example, I wouldn't. I traveled many times in Hungary and for me is an admirable country with great and kind people. Every time I felt like home there.
> Sometimes history can be very generous with some and very unfair with others, but I think time and the EU integration will heal the wounds of the past between RO and HU, as they've already healed the wounds between other member states. And such signs will remain something we will joke about.


I agree with you, grat reply!


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## brisavoine

Dantiscum said:


> BTW, there aren't many examples of such things happening between two EU-countrie, are there?


Oh, there are other examples in Europe actually. The worst example is unfortunately set in the vicinity of nothing less than the EU capital, Brussels!

Here on the border between the 90% French-speaking Brussels Capital Region and the Dutch-speaking Flemish Region (municipality of Dilbeek). The sign in Dutch warns the Bruxellois crosing the border: "Dilbeek, where the Flemings are at HOME..." Note that it is estimated some 30% to 40% of the population (and tax payers) in Dilbeek are actually Francophones. Also note that this sign was not placed there by some extremist movements but quite officially by the Flemish municipality of Dilbeek itself, with the tax money of their residents. Only 6.5 km from the European Parliament as the crow flies.










How do we expect people in the Balkans and Eastern Europe to behave properly after setting such bad examples in the heart of the EU?

Oh, and I also remember the infamous ad published by the Catalonia region in the French newspaper Le Monde back in 1992 at the time of the Barcelona Olympic Games. The ad (in French) said: "Where is Barcelona? In Catalonia of course!" And there was a map showing Catalonia in Europe, with no reference to Spain whatsoever. The next day, the Spanish embassy in Paris ran an ad in Le Monde which said: "Where is Catalonia? In Spain of course!", with a map of Catalonia inside Spain. :lol:


----------



## x-type

actually, i haven't seen such signs here. we are more creative. for instance, writing on the houses :lol:
(translation: Slovenia is here, too!)


----------



## BND

nenea_hartia said:


> Things have changed a lot lately in Romania. I can agree, the Romanian government and some newspapers and televisions wouldn't be very happy with such a sign on the Hungarian side of the border but I don't think the ordinary people would care very much. Me, for example, I wouldn't. I traveled many times in Hungary and for me is an admirable country with great and kind people. Every time I felt like home there.
> Sometimes history can be very generous with some and very unfair with others, but I think time and the EU integration will heal the wounds of the past between RO and HU, as they've already healed the wounds between other member states. And such signs will remain something we will joke about.


I wanted to point out that even the idea of such a sign would never arise on our borders (or any of our neighbours), and now a Western, old memeber country is the bad example. 

Anyway it was a very unfriendly move from Austria when after the Hungarian entry to Schengen agreement they put "no entry" signs for cars on small roads where there weren't any checkpoints before. The situation hasn't changed much since.



















hno:


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## seem

Some of slovak signs. 

Already, maximum speed in cities is 50 km/h. 

motorway D4 A-SR









motorway D2 M-SR




























Between Slovakia and Hungary (Štúrovo-Esztergom)


----------



## Wilhem275

TohrAlkimista said:


> Indeed! Someone who speaks proper about this!
> 
> Those are a bunch of right-wing parties, idiots as much as those right-wing pro-Italy parties denying the identity of the german-speaking population of the country.


I do agree. And, as I was told recently by a Tiroler friend, their problem is that the number of idiots in the bunch is getting lower, while the quantity of noise they produce is rising.

So, while most of the people would just like to enjoy living in a multicultural region, they have to be afraid about the poor and stupid image they risk to give to the rest of the world, thanks to small groups of people who should get a life.

Btw, I was at Brenner in July, and the crappy sign was gone. I'm sure most of Tirolers, Austrians, Italians and anyone else just found it plainly stupid.

The frame is still there: I have an idea about how to use it.
As I see the Italian social, cultural and political situation collapse, I think "HELP" could be a smart message to send from us to the rest of Europe et:


----------



## MrAkumana

This is a somewhat unknown border crossing between Spain and France. It's from Tapis (Spain) to Coustouges (France) on the GI-503 route. (about 30 kms inland from the AP7-A9 border crossing).
France has no "welcome to France" sign but a sign welcoming you to "Catalonia north"...
(By the way, the border has no signs of the typical abandoned customs booths, so I guess the road was built -or paved- after schengen)


----------



## Richie D.

A few pictures of the Costa Rican-Nicaraguan border post at Peñas Blancas I managed to find via Google.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/1633664
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/6045663
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/30707593
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/29487646
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/24503812

From what I'm told, getting in and out of Costa Rica's land border is rather easy, but it's getting in and out of Nicaragua that apparently requires some formalities. When entering, people may offer themselves as runners, for providing you the immigration form, plus a fee to enter the country has to be paid. You may spend sometimes hours just to cross the landborder even by car.

As to the landborder between Costa Rica and Panama, I don't recall any mention of any excessive formalities like Nicaragua demands it. I used to cross through that border on a Ticabus coach once, but that was in 1987, when I was barely three years old (all I remember is that I was in Panama a couple of times, and I remember my father getting mugged with a knife once) and during the Noriega dictatorship.


----------



## el_norte

Richie D. said:


> From what I'm told, getting in and out of Costa Rica's land border is rather easy, but it's getting in and out of Nicaragua that apparently requires some formalities.


Nah! It's the other way around, in my experience. Nicaragua is super easy to get in/out of, only formality is the payment of a $7 head tax coming or going (hey, at least they give you a reciept). Costa Rica is the tough one - generally five million people coming and going at any given moment, and never more than two or three people staffing immigration, compared with 8-10 on the Nicaraguan side. Queues take hours! And no AC inside the terminal!


----------



## Richie D.

el_norte said:


> Nah! It's the other way around, in my experience. Nicaragua is super easy to get in/out of, only formality is the payment of a $7 head tax coming or going (hey, at least they give you a reciept). Costa Rica is the tough one - generally five million people coming and going at any given moment, and never more than two or three people staffing immigration, compared with 8-10 on the Nicaraguan side. Queues take hours! And no AC inside the terminal!


To me, it sounded more complicated because of the bureaucracy that involves crossing the landborder into Nicaragua in the first place. In any case, I can't imagine the hell it must be to cross the border. Going into Panama must be much easier.

Speaking of which, there was a report on local television on things that you may see once crossing the Costa Rican-Panamaian border. When getting into Panama, and head towards Panama City, you'll find a motorway near the border that is supposed to be in near pristine order. However, when you cross into Costa Rica, you'll find yourself with potholes everywhere and facilities that can be considered less than insufficient. I remember seeing a picture of a truck crossing a Costa Rican-Panamaian border bridge near Bocas del Toro. The bridge has only wodden boards on the sides, a railroad track in the middle (track gauge should be standard Costa Rican 1067 mm gauge), and the whole bridge itself looks pretty dangerous. On top of it, there's a semi trying to cross it.

People in Costa Rica are pretty touchy about bridges in general, especially since they're in constant disrepair and may even collapse like in a recent event, but that's for another thread. Fact is, with all the bridge problems in the last year, I'm surprised that people haven't complained about the shockingly bad condition of that border bridge.

EDIT: Here's a picture of that border bridge. It crosses the Sixaola river.

http://www.carrieandjonathan.com/images/costa-rica/costa-rica-to-panama-dscn8975.jpg


----------



## BillB

*Busy Mexico Border*



bogdymol said:


> Isn't Mexico's population going down? Because in all the photos from Mexico/US border crossings there are hundreds of cars waiting to pass into the US. :lol:


You would think, but they just keep coming. You should look at this picture any time you start thinking the economy is bad. Apparently the Mexicans think it's great! kay:


----------



## nenea_hartia

Another border crossing between Romania and Bulgaria, at Vama Veche / Durankulak:


----------



## Rusonaldo

This is a border crossing between Czech Republic and Poland






Road to border crossing


----------



## seem

*article about Schengen in Slovak, and photos from this small village *

_Schengen is a small wine-making village and commune in far south-eastern Luxembourg, near the point where the borders of Germany, France, and Luxembourg meet. Other villages within the commune include Remerschen and Wintrange. As of 2005, the village has a population of 1527 with an area of 10.63 km² (4.1 sq mi).
The village became famous on 14 June 1985, when the Schengen Agreement was signed. To use this name recognition, the council of the commune of Remerschen decided on 18 January 2006 to rename the commune to Schengen. The Chamber of Deputies voted on 13 July 2006 a law [1] allowing the change of name, which was published on 30 August 2006. The law took effect three days later, and the name of the commune of Remerschen was changed to Schengen as of 3 September 2006._




























there Schengen Agreement was signed


----------



## zsimi80

*Hungary - Austria*

















Source: Google Earth


----------



## Vallex

Where exactly is that?


----------



## seem




----------



## zsimi80

Vallex said:


> Where exactly is that?


i've updated my previous post, watch it


----------



## desertpunk

USA Mexico: :banana:

Tijuana:



















El Paso/CD Juarez:



















Laredo TX:










Nogales AZ:


----------



## Timon91

How many vehicles cross the US/Mexican border at Tijuana and CD Juarez crossings every day?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Caltrans lists 80,000 AADT on I-5 between Camino de la Plaza and the Mexican border.

TX DOT lists 25,000 AADT on US 54 between US 62 and the Mexican border.


----------



## ufonut

Richie D. said:


> A few pictures of the Costa Rican-Nicaraguan border post at Peñas Blancas I managed to find via Google.
> 
> From what I'm told, getting in and out of Costa Rica's land border is rather easy, but it's getting in and out of Nicaragua that apparently requires some formalities. When entering, people may offer themselves as runners, for providing you the immigration form, plus a fee to enter the country has to be paid. You may spend sometimes hours just to cross the landborder even by car.


Well before exiting Nicaragua and entering Costa Rica everyone is subjected to a "line" where one stands with his belongings and presses a button. If the light is green you are waived off and can proceed further. If the light turns red you are taken away for a more detailed personal inspection where they inspect everything (luggage, clothing on you etc). Red/green lights are completely random.

Also in both countries you are very likely to be stopped on the road by military patrols (I was stopped in Nicaragua once and twice in Costa Rica) where everything is inspected (looking for drugs).

Costa Ricans are paranoid about drugs being imported to their country. Drug laws in Costa Rica are much stricter on average when compared with neighboring countries. Also Costa Rica is a big migrant worker destination coming primarily from Nicaragua.


----------



## jczart

Here are some photos I've taken of Intl border crossings...

Hungary at Slovakia (Satoraljaujhely)









Slovakia at Ukraine (near Uzhorod) - sorry for lighting









Hungary at Slovakia (Esztergom)


----------



## Danielk2

How wide are the lanes on that bridge??


----------



## Qwert

Danielk2 said:


> How wide are the lanes on that bridge??


Overall width of the roadway is 5.72 m so for one direction there's a bit less than 2.86 m.


----------



## brisavoine

News of the international bridge between France and Brazil over the Oyapock River. According to what a local Brazilian journalist wrote on his blog, work on the bridge has already started (he visited the bridge this week). They plan to complete the bridge and open it to traffic in October of this year, because president Lula da Silva would very much like to cross the bridge hand in hand with Nicolas Sarkozy before the end of his presidency (Lula's presidency ends on Jan. 1, 2011).

If construction on the bridge proper has only just started, I don't know if it can be completed by October. It seems like a tight deadline. What do you think?

In any case, can't wait for it to open, and to see the first pictures. A Franco-Brazilian border is going look so surreal... :banana:

Here's what the journalist posted on his blog 3 days ago:


> *Quinta-feira, Fevereiro 18, 2010*
> Brasil constrói ponte de R$ 56 milhões para se ligar à Guiana Francesa pelo Oiapoque
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> É uma jóia da arquitetura, a ponte que ligará o Brasil à França, cruzando o Rio Oiapoque.
> 
> Fui ver de perto as obras, que estão começando.
> 
> Meta é inaugurar em outubro, pois o presidente Lula quer cruzar os mais de 200 metros de braços dados com o colega Sarkozy.
> 
> A construção está a cargo de um consórcio entre a Egesa e a CMT, ambas com sede em Brasília e escritórios em Minas Gerais. A Funcab, Fundação Professor Carlos Augusto Bittencourt, foi contratada para cuidar da Supervisão Ambiental do empreendimento - atentar para que a obra não agrida a natureza.
> 
> Depois vou dando mais detalhes, pois sou o coordenador da Comunicação Social do projeto ambiental.
> 
> Veja que beleza de imagem.
> 
> http://marciog.blogspot.com/2010/02/brasil-constrois-ponte-de-r-56-milhoes.html


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## brisavoine

For a bit of context:


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## AnonymvsBeaver

desertpunk said:


> USA Mexico: :banana:
> 
> Tijuana:
> 
> [...]


It looks like everyone's going into the US, but few people are driving in the opposit direction :|


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## ChrisZwolle

AnonymvsBeaver said:


> It looks like everyone's going into the US, but few people are driving in the opposit direction :|


That depends on customs throughput. Maybe Mexican customs are much more lax than U.S. customs.


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## mgk920

ChrisZwolle said:


> That depends on customs throughput. Maybe Mexican customs are much more lax than U.S. customs.


Mexico has two tiers of border crossing - their border with the USA itself has very lax inspections, if they do any at all. They call it their 'border zone' (or whatever its Spanish equivalent is). The Border Zone is a band about 50-100 km wide along the border plus all of the Baja Peninsula. Then comes the 'interior'. From what I am aware of, the Mexican border zone/interior interface inspections and red tape are more strict and tedious than what one faces crossing into the USA.

The USA, OTOH, does the full inspection at the border.

Mike


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## Fab87

Croatian-Slovenian Border near Pasjak (entering the European Union), with different gates for EU and non-EU travellers.





And, after only 30km, the slovenian-italian border.
slovenian side, dismissed station

italian side


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## bogdymol

Fab87 said:


> Croatian-Slovenian Border near Pasjak (entering the European Union), with different gates for EU and non-EU travellers.


Do they respect the EU/non-EU gates? At the Romanian-Hungarian borders different gates are signalized but nobody uses them. Maybe because the low traffic. The only exception is at Nadlac/Nagylak where the traffic is very high, sometimes the border check is made on 6 lanes, but they are common for EU/non-EU travellers.


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## Fab87

Mmh, i couldn't say, when i was there in august 2009 the slovenians officers were checking all passports and non-EU travellers went through more accurate controls. So I would say yes.

But there is a slight difference: Romania and Hungary are both EU countries, even if Romania's not part of the Schengen Area. Croatia is not in the EU, so things may be a little different


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## BillB

Timon91 said:


> How many vehicles cross the US/Mexican border at Tijuana and CD Juarez crossings every day?


According to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, for Tijuana (San Ysidro and Otay Mesa CA), it's about 50,000 cars and about 2000 trucks per day. For El Paso (PDN, Stanton, BOTA and Ysleta) it's about 30,000 cars and about 1,800 trucks per day. There are some buses and trains too. And of course, it varies by season and by day of the week.


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## Ban.dera

Bosnia's border crossings

*GP*


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## bogdymol

Is that a new border crossing?


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## nenea_hartia

It's kinda sad when governments in Europe are forced to spend a lot of money building border crossing instead of removing them. I hope that 5 years from now such buildings will be a distant memory.


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## Ban.dera

bogdymol said:


> Is that a new border *crossing*?


it is crossing*s* and yes they are new


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## da_scotty

Hmm only countries who aren't part of schengen still have border control,, So you really cant generalise Europe by saying that the all spend money on border crossings, only a few countries, like you're own country do!


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## Czas na Żywiec

^^ And Schengen countries still need borders at exterior borders. Poland, Hungary, etc.


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## nenea_hartia

da_scotty said:


> Hmm only countries who aren't part of schengen still have border control,, So you really cant generalise Europe by saying that the all spend money on border crossings, only a few countries, like you're own country do!


You are right here. Romania is set to join Schengen space next year and the authorities are investing a lot in upgrading all systems and frontier crossings at our borders with Serbia, Ukraine and Moldova. Of course, from a technical and rational point of view I completely understand and agree with these measures, 'cause we want to join the Schengen space, but sometimes, in my dreams, I imagine an Europe where all the border crossings will be disbanded.


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## Czas na Żywiec

When is Romania set to implement Schengen, January 1st? Is Bulgaria joining also?


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## nenea_hartia

Czas na Żywiec;52613701 said:


> When is Romania set to implement Schengen, January 1st? Is Bulgaria joining also?


For both Bulgaria and Romania the time of accession is March 2011. I don't know why March and not January though.


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## ChrisZwolle

March 2011 according to Wikipedia


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## bogdymol

Yes, March 2011 is set for Romania and Bulgaria to join the Schengen space. Last summer Romanian police made a pre-Schengen exercise with the Hungarian police. During the exercise was a cross-border pursuit, with the suspects beeing stopped in the other country. More about this subject below:

adevarul.ro (romanian version)

adevarul.ro (english version - google translate)

Note both romanian Dacia Logan and hungarian Ford Focus police cars.


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## Timon91

That's good news! Only Ireland, the UK and Cyprus have yet to joing, but I guess that it will take some time I guess...


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## Barciur

They prolly won't be joining, but I guess it doesn't matter for the land border anyway... UK and Ireland have their own Common Travel Area.


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## crcorp

I think it is strange that there are countries within the EU that are not part of the Schengen area. It feels somewhat like "yeah we want to be part of the EU, but on our own conditions" ... well in that case, don't apply for the EU at all. The EU offers advantages, but every advantage comes necessarily as well with a disadvantage.

The UK and Ireland are somewhat "lucky", because of their geographic situation border control is a lot easier than on the European main land. Although I still keep asking myself the question: what happens if I take a canoe and peddle from Cap Grid Nez (France) to Folkstone (UK). Will UK border officers ask for my passport when arriving at the beach?


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## bogdymol

I guess you would go to jail for ilegal entry in the UK.


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## nenea_hartia

crcorp said:


> I think it is strange that there are countries within the EU that are not part of the Schengen area. It feels somewhat like "yeah we want to be part of the EU, but on our own conditions" ... well in that case, don't apply for the EU at all. The EU offers advantages, but every advantage comes necessarily as well with a disadvantage.


I think it is probably because in 1973, when Ireland and the UK have joined the EU, no one was yet talking about a "Schengen space". I believe you cannot force a country to join Schengen space, it is a matter of will. But I agree with you, it might look a little strange or even unfriendly to remain isolated not only as an island but as a non-Schengen member too.


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## crcorp

bogdymol said:


> I guess you would go to jail for ilegal entry in the UK.


With a Dutch (EU) passport... that would surprise me. 

Anyhow, borders within the EU should only be maintained for purely administrative reasons (like borders between regions inside states) and not as a barrier to obstruct people from moving around.


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## bogdymol

^^ Some time ago I asked a police officer what if I try to cross the border between Romania and Hungary (both EU states) with my valid EU passport (or ID card) in my pocket on the field (or anywhere where isn't a border control point). He told me that I would go to jail for ilegal trespassing.


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## nenea_hartia

^ Indeed, that's the law, but I doubt it would be put in practice. I believe they would only give you a very "generous" fine and then send you back to Romania.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

crcorp said:


> Anyhow, borders within the EU should only be maintained for purely administrative reasons (like borders between regions inside states) and not as a barrier to obstruct people from moving around.


In this day and age, I always feel border controls are an outdated fashion. Schengen and the euro was the best thing that happened for international traffic in the past 50 years.


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## nenea_hartia

ChrisZwolle said:


> In this day and age, I always feel border controls are an outdated fashion. Schengen and the euro was the best thing that happened for international traffic in the past 50 years.


Qft.


----------



## crcorp

bogdymol said:


> ^^ Some time ago I asked a police officer what if I try to cross the border between Romania and Hungary (both EU states) with my valid EU passport (or ID card) in my pocket on the field (or anywhere where isn't a border control point). He told me that I would go to jail for ilegal trespassing.


:down: That's just crazy ... is this a European law? For if it is, I should have gotten a lot of fines in my life . I lived a large part in my life in Maastricht (at several hundreds of metres of the Belgian border) and I crossed many times the border by bike in the forest or other non-controlled border crossings. I only once ran into a Walloon (French speaking) police control who asked me for my passport, but outside of that I never encountered any controls.

Perhaps as a result of the fact that the border between Romania and Hungary is not yet open for that long, that specific laws still apply here?


ChrisZwolle said:


> Schengen and the euro was the best thing that happened for international traffic in the past 50 years.


Exactly. Especially for people living close to multiple borders. Before the Euro, I had different wallets for Dutch Guilders, Belgian Francs and German Marks... you can imagine the mess .


----------



## Timon91

AFAIK the Netherlands and Belgium have had some kind of treaty about border crossings _before_ Schengen. So you probably didn't deserve a fine. Remember that Romania isn't in Schengen yet, so there is still passport/ID control on the Hungarian-Romanian border


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## ChrisZwolle

A common customs union was created in 1948 in the Benelux. The free travel of persons, goods and capital came into force in 1960.

So the Netherlands has no border controls with Belgium for 50 years now, although there may have been occasional checks to prevent smuggling. If I remember correctly, there is not a single motorway border crossing with Belgium that has signs of earlier border stations like you see on the border with Germany.


----------



## Timon91

There are no border stations, but over here there is a parking lot at the border on both sides of the motorway. I'm not sure if it was a border station before though, since this motorway was opened in 1971.


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## ChrisZwolle

That border crossing opened on 30 december 1971, so that is 11 years after the implementation of free travel.


----------



## Markowice10

bogdymol said:


> ^^ Some time ago I asked a police officer what if I try to cross the border between Romania and Hungary (both EU states) with my valid EU passport (or ID card) in my pocket on the field (or anywhere where isn't a border control point). He told me that I would go to jail for ilegal trespassing.


The passage across Polish-Czech border, beyond the official border crossing, was convicted the fine 500 PLN (130 EUR) till the day 21 December 2007.


----------



## havaska

The main reason the UK won't join Schengen is because of all the illegal immigrants trying to get into the UK via France. There are massive camps in France where they are all illegally camped out and then try to get across every night.

I'm certain that if this was resolved the UK would join.

Ireland can't join unless the UK does or it would have to set up a border with N Ireland.

Cyprus can't join until the north part of Cyprus is sorted out.

I think they're perfectly good reasons for UK, Ireland and Cyrpus to be out of it at the moment.


----------



## nenea_hartia

havaska said:


> The main reason the UK won't join Schengen is because of all the illegal immigrants trying to get into the UK via France. There are massive camps in France where they are all illegally camped out and then try to get across every night.
> 
> I'm certain that if this was resolved the UK would join.
> 
> Ireland can't join unless the UK does or it would have to set up a border with N Ireland.
> 
> Cyprus can't join until the north part of Cyprus is sorted out.
> 
> I think they're perfectly good reasons for UK, Ireland and Cyrpus to be out of it at the moment.


Very thorough explanations, thanks.


----------



## bogdymol

havaska said:


> The main reason the UK won't join Schengen is because of all the illegal immigrants trying to get into the UK via France. There are massive camps in France where they are all illegally camped out and then try to get across every night. [...]


It might be as you say. The most embarrasing moment of my life was at a French-British border control check in the Paris Nord Railway Station. I wanted to board the Eurostar from Paris to London and they checked my ID card and passport for about 10 minutes, asked me thousands of questions, had to show my returning ticket etc., while the others were checked for 10 seconds. I think I have to say 'thank you' to the romanian gypsies that made Romania famous accross UK and the rest of Europe. :wallbash:


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## nenea_hartia

OMG! I plan to use the Eurostar this summer for my trip in the UK...


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## Timon91

A good way to see whether they ask a lot of questions or not 

I used the Eurostar last summer. On my way _to_ London they checked my bags for drugs. No surprise, considering the fact that I'm from the Netherlands.


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## bogdymol

nenea_hartia said:


> OMG! I plan to use the Eurostar this summer for my trip in the UK...


You can go just with your ID card but I don't recommend you to do so. They started scratching oke: my photo on the ID card with their nails to see if it is the original one, and I asked the border police officer if the passport is better and he answered 'YES :lovethem:', but he checked that photo too. My advice: go a little earlier with everything prepaired for the check.


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## eucitizen

They violated your rights as the police cant bother with such questions and asking your return ticket. Normally you could denounce them and sue them! You should complain to the EU commission, really! Pity you don't have their names !


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## bogdymol

This happened in 2008 and, to be honest, I understand them. They are sick of so many romanian gypsies that are living in UK without legal forms, they don't have a job and they do only bad things. 

I am only worried that most of the european citizens associate romanians with romanian gypsies. hno:


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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, Romanians have a bad name in the Netherlands as well due to skimming activities.


----------



## bogdymol

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yeah, Romanians have a bad name in the Netherlands as well due to skimming activities.


The problem is that many don't see the diferences between romanians and gypsyes. They are about 5% of the population but they do 90% of the criminal ofences. Another fact is that in Romania they say ('please read SCREAM') that they are discriminated fir beeing gypsyes, but when they go the the rest of the EU they say that they are romanian citizens and not romanian gypsyes. :bash:


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## nenea_hartia

^ Indeed, but they are Romanian citizens with Romanian passports and they have the same rights and obligations, so let's stop complaining.  
Romanian gypsies or just Romanians, we are all equal in front of the law.


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## bogdymol

Yes nenea_hartia, we are all equal in front of the law, but I want western european to treat romanians as they deserve and to see the diferences between romanians and gypsyes.


----------



## nenea_hartia

bogdymol said:


> Yes nenea_hartia, we are all equal in front of the law, but I want western european to treat romanians as they deserve and to see the diferences between romanians and gypsyes.


They are treating us all as Romanian _citizens_, and that's exactly as it should be. In Romania, for example, nobody cares if someone is from Burgundy, is a Breton or a German from Alsace. They are all French citizens. What I am saying is that the police or the public in every country should act or react using one single criteria: if a person is honest or not, and not if a person (Romanian in this particular case) is a Gypsy or not.


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## bogdymol

I think you don't get my point. I agree that the police/public authority should treat us the same, but I don't agree that if you go to Italy for example and you say you are from Romania the people (PEOPLE, not public authority) will look strange at you because they heard at the TV that romanians (especially gypsies) do bad things.

Last offtopic post for me.


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## nenea_hartia

bogdymol said:


> I think you don't get my point. I agree that the police/public authority should treat us the same, but I don't agree that if you go to Italy for example and you say you are from Romania the people (PEOPLE, not public authority) will look strange at you because they heard at the TV that romanians (especially gypsies) do bad things.
> 
> Last offtopic post for me.


OK, for me too...
Sorry guys.


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## Markowice10

bogdymol said:


> The problem is that many don't see the diferences between romanians and gypsyes. :


The majority associates Romania from Dracula :lol:


----------



## nenea_hartia

Markowice10 said:


> The majority associates Romania from Dracula :lol:


Very good one! :lol:


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## eucitizen

As for me romanians are always welcome in Italy. And by the way many easteners considers the osuthners, italians, greeks, spainiards, as gypsies


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## nenea_hartia

^ Thank you for the kind words.


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## bogdymol

kay:


----------



## brisavoine

havaska said:


> The main reason the UK won't join Schengen is because of all the illegal immigrants trying to get into the UK via France. There are massive camps in France where they are all illegally camped out and then try to get across every night.
> 
> I'm certain that if this was resolved the UK would join.


What a laughable justification! There are far more immigrants (legal or illegal) entering the UK every year via the British airports than all the immigrants waiting on the coastline of northern France. The Labour government, with their open policies, have allowed far more immigrants in the UK than there will ever been around Calais. The immigrants around Calais are just a drop in the ocean.


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## eucitizen

UK should make a compromsie with Schengen: she can keep the border controls but should accept the common visa policy and recognising the EU documents issued to people of 3rd countries, while the Schengen should recognise the Uk and Ireland documents issued for immigrants of 3rd countries.


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## brisavoine

^^They are not interested in a compromise. Their refusal of Schengen is purely ideological, just like their refusal of the euro. It's the isolationist islander mentality that is displayed everyday in the Sun or the Daily Mail. Even their serious newspapers display that mentality (you only have to read the Daily Telegraph).


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## havaska

We can do what we want in our own country, and if we don't want to join Schengen why should we? Let us join it in our own time.

Isolationist islander mentality? Pff, what a load of rubbish. The three newspapers you mentioned are all centre-right and are generally all anti-european.

I'm pro-european integration and would like us to adopt the euro, but you can't force it on us. There's a very good reason why the UK hasn't joined the Euro yet. Look up Black Wednesday.


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## eucitizen

no I was thinking in general about EU flags in Uk, not at borders. Rare sight but still possible.


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## rick1016

Anything other than Europe in here??


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Post some Australian border crossings


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## Alex Von Königsberg

Here is my small addition to Germany - France border crossing  I took these pictures on Saturday (27 February) while driving on A6 on my trip from Mannheim to Paris. I drove in Europe again after a very long time.

*German sign informing that France is 1200 m ahead*









*Last petrol station before the border. German A6 sign only has French city of Metz on it*









*Approaching the border station*









*There is no control at the border for passenger cars, so cars drive through without stopping*









*We are in France *


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> Last petrol station before the border. German A6 sign only has French city of Metz on it


That's Goldene Bremm right? It's even past the last exit in Germany I believe, or at least past the A620 interchange (Dreieck Saarbrücken).


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

ChrisZwolle said:


> That's Goldene Bremm right? It's even past the last exit in Germany I believe, or at least past the A620 interchange (Dreieck Saarbrücken).


Yes, it is Goldene Bremm. It was indeed past the last exit on A6.


----------



## bogdymol

Nice pictures Alex Von Königsberg.

Why is one lane blocked at the border and which is the speed limit in that area ?


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

bogdymol said:


> Nice pictures Alex Von Königsberg.
> 
> Why is one lane blocked at the border and which is the speed limit in that area ?


The speed limit is 10 km/h. Why one lane is blocked - I do not know, but I guess to make people slow down more because no one was driving 10 km/h.


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## ChrisZwolle

Nearly all of France's motorway border crossings look like this. They sometimes still perform random checks and pick suspicious cars out of the traffic.


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## bogdymol

10 km/h? :weird:


----------



## Palance

10 km/h is quite normal at French borders.

Tournai(B) -> Lille (F)









And back to Belgium:


----------



## snowman159

A possible reason for the 10km/h limit: someone who actually drives 10km/h there probably has his car filled with drugs or is wanted by interpol. The ridiculous limit makes it easier for police to spot them. :lol:


----------



## Suburbanist

-Pino- said:


> The construction of those passport control booths in Amsterdam would likely take 20 years with a cost-overrun equal to at least three times the original budget. That's how things work in Amsterdam :bash:
> 
> That being said, if you'd check passports in Amsterdam, that means that also people travelling from Amsterdam to Brussels on the Eurostar would have to go through passport control. Despite the fact that you stay within the Schengen area. If you travel to London from Paris, Brussels or Lille, it will always be non-stop, so everyone who boards the train must clear immigration anyway. That would no longer be the case with an extention to in Amsterdam or (for instance) Germany. To make those connections feasible, I guess that the powers that be would have to get comfortable with checks on the train rather than on the station.


I doubt that would happen anytime soon. First, UK has historically held far more stringent border controls than continental countries, where passports used to be checked on board before the Schegen's days. Moreover, current law gives a lot of rights to wannabe asylum claimers once they stood foot in UK soil. Finally, managing deportations and entry refusals while Eurostar is cruising is not feasible. Imagine if some immigrant who purposely "had lost" their documents are informed they will not be allowed into UK. It would be a very tense situation: you are travelling on a HS train than a guy starts screaming because the immigrations office says he won't be allowed to enter UK. Controlling people's flow would be difficult, aslo.

Anyhow, there are plenty of convenient connections from Thalys to Eurostar in Brussels Zuid.


----------



## Eulanthe

Suburbanist said:


> I doubt that would happen anytime soon. First, UK has historically held far more stringent border controls than continental countries, where passports used to be checked on board before the Schegen's days. Moreover, current law gives a lot of rights to wannabe asylum claimers once they stood foot in UK soil. Finally, managing deportations and entry refusals while Eurostar is cruising is not feasible. Imagine if some immigrant who purposely "had lost" their documents are informed they will not be allowed into UK. It would be a very tense situation: you are travelling on a HS train than a guy starts screaming because the immigrations office says he won't be allowed to enter UK. Controlling people's flow would be difficult, aslo.
> 
> Anyhow, there are plenty of convenient connections from Thalys to Eurostar in Brussels Zuid.


The easiest way to do it would simply be to simply restrict intra-Schengen Eurostar journeys to EU/EEA/CH citizens only. Passport checks could still take place in Amsterdam, Cologne, wherever - with valid intra-Schengen journeys allowed to bypass passport controls. Therefore, no problem - UK-bound passengers pass through immigration, Schengen-only passengers are restricted to EU/EEA/CH citizens - thus no problem at all with people entering the UK illegally. 

It is feasible, after all - http://www.eurostar.com/UK/uk/leisu...ervices/avignon/direct_avignon/timetables.jsp

Are there passport control booths in Avignon?


----------



## Minato ku

^^ Yes there is an Eurostar area in Avignon station.


----------



## Suburbanist

Eulanthe said:


> The easiest way to do it would simply be to simply restrict intra-Schengen Eurostar journeys to EU/EEA/CH citizens only. Passport checks could still take place in Amsterdam, Cologne, wherever - with valid intra-Schengen journeys allowed to bypass passport controls. Therefore, no problem - UK-bound passengers pass through immigration, Schengen-only passengers are restricted to EU/EEA/CH citizens - thus no problem at all with people entering the UK illegally.
> 
> It is feasible, after all - http://www.eurostar.com/UK/uk/leisu...ervices/avignon/direct_avignon/timetables.jsp
> 
> Are there passport control booths in Avignon?


It is discriminatory in first place. Moreover, the greatest challenge is not place UK Border Force officers in control posts, but update stations to UK border security standards: x-ray facilities, sealed platform etc.


----------



## shpirtkosova

International border between Republic of Kosovo and Serbia in Mutivode on the Kosovo side..


----------



## tompaw

How discriminatory is that? There's been separate lanes for EU/EEA/CH citizens on every EU external border since I remember.

To be honest, following the US/UK x-ray/big brother paranoya is far more discriminatory for me than having to walk through a particular gate.


----------



## LMB

bogdymol said:


> Nice pictures Alex Von Königsberg.
> 
> Why is one lane blocked at the border and which is the speed limit in that area ?


Because the French are paranoid about "New EU" countries. They wouldn't stop me (PL), but perhaps because they were already surgically cleaning a Romanian car. The entire territory is on German soil, though (don't know if it makes a difference with who set up the barriers?). 

The speed limits are illegal (according to Schengen agreement). One could drive 130, and then go up to Strassbourg to cancel the ticket. :cheers: to the brave who wants to challenge it.


----------



## LMB

hofburg said:


> just love that mixed border between Netherlands and Germany. Feels like Europe is and should be.


That's Aachen. Similarly mixed with Belgium, and there are two buses across the border, 14 to Eupen and 24 to Kelmis (La Calamine): 









Bus stop inside Belgium: German design, French names, line numbering from both systems:









Former border control building (sorry for quality, taken with phone from within the bus):


----------



## LMB

Saarbrücken-Schoeneck

Street towards France; former border checkpost in the background








The former border control post









Bienvenue en France.


----------



## rick1016

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Post some Australian border crossings


They have them, they just aren't international :lol:

Anyone have any Chinese/Magnolian/Russian? I'd be interested to see how those work.

What about countries where they have to switch sides of the road, like in southern Africa?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Is Schoenek to be pronounced "Schöneck"?


----------



## mgk920

rick1016 said:


> They have them, they just aren't international :lol:
> 
> Anyone have any Chinese/Magnolian/Russian? I'd be interested to see how those work.
> 
> What about countries where they have to switch sides of the road, like in southern Africa?


Not sure on others, but the side switching at the crossing between Hong Kong (drives on left) and Shenzhen (drives on right) in China is done in the helix on the Shenzhen end of the bridge.

Mike


----------



## LMB

ChrisZwolle said:


> Is Schoenek to be pronounced "Schöneck"?


Not sure. I think the locals would call it "Shohnek". Forbach, Remich, and the like are pronounced with sh, not ś at the end.


----------



## BosniaHerzegovina

New border between BiH and Montenegro.


----------



## Gag Halfrunt

rick1016 said:


> What about countries where they have to switch sides of the road, like in southern Africa?


The amount of traffic in African countries probably isn't high enough to need any special infrastructure for changing sides.


----------



## gdolniak

mgk920 said:


> Not sure on others, but the side switching at the crossing between Hong Kong (drives on left) and Shenzhen (drives on right) in China is done in the helix on the Shenzhen end of the bridge.
> 
> Mike


Also between Macao S.A.R. and the mainland China. On Google Maps, the Hengqin Border Crossing is a very fine example of such helix:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=zhuhai,+china&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=32.610437,86.572266&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Zhuhai,+Guangdong,+China&ll=22.140328,113.55046&spn=0.009302,0.021136&t=h&z=16


----------



## panda80

BosniaHerzegovina said:


> New border between BiH and Montenegro.


The one between Trebinje and Herceg-Novi?


----------



## mirza-sm

^^ Yep. Thats on the Bosnian side.


----------



## Christophorus

mirza-sm said:


> ^^ Yep. Thats on the Bosnian side.


Herzegovinian please  

Great picture, is that in function already? On Tuesday it was not...


----------



## Timon91

Bosnian-Herzegovinian?


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

While browsing the raw photos from my trip, I found one interesting picture:










This sign is located in France several hundred metres after French starred sign "France". However, the font and the style is clearly German. It seems like there was Autobahn 6 pictograph on the left from "E50", but somehow it was painted over later because we can still see a lighter rectangular mark. So, if the sign was initially made for use in Germany, how it ended up on the French side?


----------



## LMB

Alex Von Königsberg said:


> While browsing the raw photos from my trip, I found one interesting picture:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, if the sign was initially made for use in Germany, how it ended up on the French side?


This is still in Germany:http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=...203877,6.957779&spn=0.000911,0.00309&t=k&z=19, but past the border control. This is officially a German road, but I guess in order not to confuse drivers, they removed A6, as it's almost A320.

(the blue house is indeed in France - the border goes along the road which is under the tunnel, France on the left)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Hehe, I noticed that too last year:


----------



## LMB

2° Grossrosseln - Petite Rosselle http://maps.google.de/maps?num=30&h...207203,6.842541&spn=0.001822,0.00618&t=h&z=18

View of the bridge:









Former control post:


----------



## mirza-sm

Christophorus said:


> Herzegovinian please
> 
> Great picture, is that in function already? On Tuesday it was not...


Lol, sorry, Herzegovinian.


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

LMB said:


> This is still in Germany:http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=...203877,6.957779&spn=0.000911,0.00309&t=k&z=19, but past the border control. This is officially a German road, but I guess in order not to confuse drivers, they removed A6, as it's almost A320.
> 
> (the blue house is indeed in France - the border goes along the road which is under the tunnel, France on the left)


Thank for clarification. However, I still do not understand why this sign came first:










Why would they first use sign "Frankreich 1200 m" but then "France" if these both signs are still in Germany? :nuts:


----------



## Carldiff

Alex Von Königsberg said:


> Thank for clarification. However, I still do not understand why this sign came first:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would they first use sign "Frankreich 1200 m" but then "France" if these both signs are still in Germany? :nuts:


It could be that there are no more exits before the French border.


----------



## LMB

Alex Von Königsberg said:


> Thank for clarification. However, I still do not understand why this sign came first:
> 
> [France with 12 stars]
> 
> Why would they first use sign "Frankreich 1200 m" but then "France" if these both signs are still in Germany? :nuts:


Bit OT: 
Well, I'd say the mess is a good sign. Other than being a sign of France approaching quicly lol, it means that Germans aren't so tough-minded about what was once "theirs" for some time. There are five international routes across the border in my area (4 bus, 1 LRT), clearly all are German conception, and I have a feeling they are largely Germany-founded. There are signs to German towns in France (in German spelling), and vice versa (of course also in German spellinghno:, that will take time I guess.).


----------



## Morsue

LMB said:


>


The sign says "In Germany, pedestrians have right of way" which scares me. That would mean they don't have right of way in France??


----------



## Manchester Planner

They don't in the UK either.


----------



## eucitizen

Not even on a pedestrain crossing? I thought they did as where I am used to go and to live this rule is valid.


----------



## Manchester Planner

Zebra crossings (or similar) in the UK do not give pedestrians total priority - cars are meant to stop, but don't have to. And these sorts of crossings are very rare in the UK, at least in most places. (Unlike in many European countries where they are very common..) Instead more "formal" pedestrian crossings are used generally, where traffic is controlled by lights, often controlled by pedestrians pressing a button.


----------



## brisavoine

Alex Von Königsberg said:


> *We are in France *


In fact I believe when you took that picture you were still in Germany. The exact Franco-German border is further down, more towards the bottom of the hill in the background of your picture (the houses visible at the bottom of the hill are in France). You should be aware that in Europe the country signs are rarely posted on the exact borders.


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> Is Schoenek to be pronounced "Schöneck"?


Apparently yes, it's pronounced like "Schöneck" in German, or "Cheunèque" in French (see video below). But I suspect a lot of French people not from Alsace-Lorraine would pronounce it as "Chonèque", or "Schohneck" in German if you prefer.


----------



## brisavoine

LMB said:


> Not sure. I think the locals would call it "Shohnek". Forbach, Remich, and the like are pronounced with sh, not ś at the end.


Don't know about Remich, but Forbach is definitely pronounced with a hard "k" in the end in French. Johann Sebastian Bach is also called "Jean Sébastien Bach" in French, with a hard "k" in the end.


----------



## Palance

This is on the Swedish-Finnish border. Unfortunately I cannot rad the sign, but this EU-sign looks trilangual to me. As far as I can see, The sign shows Ruotsi (Finnish for Sweden), Sverige, but what about the third word (in the middle)??

All other signs (on the Finnish) side I could find are bilangual (Finnish and Swedish)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It is probably in Sami.


----------



## riiga

As Chris stated, it's in Sami.


----------



## Eulanthe

Suburbanist said:


> It is discriminatory in first place. Moreover, the greatest challenge is not place UK Border Force officers in control posts, but update stations to UK border security standards: x-ray facilities, sealed platform etc.


What would be discriminatory about it? I don't know about today, but there were certainly plenty of border crossings in the past which were restricted to EU citizens plus a few select others. The tourist border crossings between PL and DE/CZ/SK come to mind. The EU certainly has always operated on the principle that only its citizens are entitled to benefit from the EU. 

The only real issue I can see is that there would need to be some sort of identity check to confirm Union citizenship - but this could easily be done by maintaining the legal fiction that the ID card is required to validate the ticket. It's illegal to cross a Schengen border without valid ID after all.

Updating the stations wouldn't be that difficult if there was the will to do so - look at the Calais Ferry Terminal foot passenger border crossing for an example of how it can be done in a small space and on the cheap. 

The real reason may be that Amsterdam simply isn't economically worthwhile to run to.


----------



## eomer

Morsue said:


> The sign says "In Germany, pedestrians have right of way" which scares me. That would mean they don't have right of way in France??


Theorically, they have it on pedestrian crossings in France too...but only theorically.


----------



## Palance

Max. 10 km/h on the Dutch/German border


----------



## Manchester Planner

Crossing into the Republic of Ireland from the UK:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Bel...srNlwezAh6GvE94q7qjANA&cbp=12,176.43,,0,11.71

Same road but now crossing the other way, into the UK:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Bel...4.114012,-6.365118&spn=0.031545,0.090895&z=14

As you can see the only way you know you're crossing the border is that the speed limits change from mph to kmph (when going from UK to RoI)... and that's a fairly recent development, as the Republic was mph - not sure when they changed, but it was only a few years ago.


----------



## MAG

Manchester Planner said:


> Crossing into the Republic of Ireland from the UK ... Same road but now crossing the other way, into the UK ... As you can see the only way you know you're crossing the border is that the speed limits change from mph to kmph (when going from UK to RoI) ...


Thanks for posting. 

I've never seen pictures of UK/ROI border before. 
I guess the border line is where the road markings change from white to yellow/white in the vicinity of that speed limit information sign.

But for the life of me I cannot understand why neither country uses EU stars. 
Is this conspiracy or a ****-up? 
Or is it just plain old stupid anti-EU politics that qualifies for an ASBO?



.


----------



## x-type

they could at least put any sign which indicates changing the country. or that's about that IRL/NIR stuff?


----------



## DanielFigFoz

^^ Yes, it is, people would complain that it's not a border blah blah blah, so they just don't sign it.










The border is where the outer line changes colour.


----------



## DSzumaher

Palance said:


> Max. 10 km/h on the Dutch/German border


Max. 10 km/h on the Luxembourgish/French border (Map):


----------



## Manchester Planner

MAG said:


> But for the life of me I cannot understand why neither country uses EU stars.
> Is this conspiracy or a ****-up?
> Or is it just plain old stupid anti-EU politics that qualifies for an ASBO?


No, nothing to do with anti-EU sentiment. The border has never been properly marked or signed. Which is fair enough, considering the circumstances and the strong feelings people have in Ireland one way or another. Any signs saying "welcome to the UK" or similar would be destroyed pretty quickly I'd imagine!!

It should be remembered also that the UK-RoI border has always been open (perhaps with the exception of during WWII) and the two countries are not part of Schengen, instead they have their own arrangements for open borders.

The only other international border the UK has in deep below the English Channel roughly halfway along inside the Channel Tunnel! Alas, I don't think it's marked - or at least I haven't seen any photos of any such markings down there! Would be great if someone could post them if they do exist.

Gibraltar - Spain and the borders of the UK sovereign bases on Cyprus are the only other British (but not UK) international crossings, I believe. All the other overseas territories/crown dependencies (which are not part of the UK) are islands.


----------



## Manchester Planner

TheHumanity said:


> The foreigners basically -
> 
> Irish is OK - Pretty, why not?
> 
> Dislike an object standing, that I do not even notice of.
> 
> What are you supposed to be here and flock to?
> 
> Want me to push off the road?
> 
> UGLY.
> 
> uke:


???


----------



## Palance

The border crossing between the Netherlands (A12) and Germany (A3) at Bergh-Autoweg/Elten-Autobahn


































































































A small crossing between the German Elten and the Dutch Beek (Eltenseweg-Beeker Strasse)









































Location: http://maps.google.nl/?ie=UTF8&ll=51.893391,6.179423&spn=0.01883,0.038409&z=15


----------



## bigm1983

hi,
how to post pics and video links here
thanks


----------



## ChrisZwolle

bigm1983 said:


> hi,
> how to post pics and video links here
> thanks


1) resize your images to a reasonable size (preferably not wider than 1024 pixels).
2) upload them to an image hosting service, for example tinypic.com
3) copy the IMG forum link and paste them into your post


----------



## bigm1983

thanks mate


----------



## bigm1983

*Borders from Hungary*

Hi Guys I was in Hungary this month and also in winter.

Just uploaded some videos on youtube if any one interested

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmvFFQfj4ng

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D248KLVCvOs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wl46swRKOl0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv2j0u2mMAk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXzP8K0cnZI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcw3pt26-so

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVEd67TBrP8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Fouahq0O2k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XADXw-j4bU











































































http://i39.tinypic.com/fmnqjc.jpg

View My Video


----------



## zsimi80

^^

thanks for this report.


----------



## bigm1983

*thanks*



zsimi80 said:


> ^^
> 
> thanks for this report.


thanks that you like my post. i love hungary... next time i am planning to cross sopron border and komarom so hopefully i will make more pic


----------



## nenea_hartia

^ Thanks for the report too, bigm1983. Very interesting. In your first pic, is that the Romanian checkpoint of Borş?


----------



## Palance

The border between Winterswijk (Netherlands, N319) en Oeding (Germany)
Location










































And the border at Zwillbrock (Germany), just east of Groenlo (Netherlands)
Location


----------



## eucitizen

I found this video of the border crossing between Belgium and France. As you can notice they completely removed the booths and repaved the track. But which border crossing is it?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think it's the E42 border crossing between Tournai and Lille.


----------



## eucitizen

So Belgium started dismantling its border crossings. Uhm if anyone is going to pass through other border crossings between Belgium and France and Luxembourg, please inform us if something changed.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Actually, I think France started dismantling it's border crossings. I think there are few EU countries that have been in Schengen for this long with so many physical border stations still present.


----------



## eucitizen

So I will trust you, when France will dismantle the border crossing in Perthus  Ok but the one from the video is on the belgian side. So if you are planning any journey to France , hopefully you will post something here.


----------



## TohrAlkimista

Do the Dutch signage is always yellow?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

No, those are German signs. Non-motorway, non-local signage is always yellow in Germany.


----------



## TommyLopez

bigm1983 said:


> thanks that you like my post. i love hungary... next time i am planning to cross sopron border and komarom so hopefully i will make more pic


If you plan to visit some border crossings in Hungary, I recommend you to visit border bridge between Esztergom and Štúrovo(SK)


----------



## TohrAlkimista

ChrisZwolle said:


> No, those are German signs. Non-motorway, non-local signage is always yellow in Germany.


Damn, that's pretty confusing.
Those are supposed to be temporary road signs due to works in Italy.

EU should try to impose a unique standard for all the countries.


----------



## mapman:cz

TohrAlkimista said:


> EU should try to impose a unique standard for all the countries.


Taking all the costs into account (singage is not something cheap), it is pretty imposible...


----------



## koloite

*Norwegian - Russian border*

The pictures below were taken in May 2006. We went on a road trip to northern Norway including both the North Cape and the Russian border. We did not cross the border into Russia.

A sign at the border indicating the opening hours









Bi-lingual sign for Kirkenes









The border station at Storskog









An old border crossing not very far away from the current border crossing









The border is indicated by yellow (Norway) and red/green (Russia) border poles.









There are numerous signs in the area telling you not to cross the border









This is a little to the south of Storskog on the road 885 to Nyrud. The river is the border. The town you can see on the other side of the river is Nikel, a polluted Russian industrial town. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=nikel,+russia&sll=69.300671,29.443703&sspn=0.052667,0.264187&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Russian+Federation,+Province+of+Murmansk,+Pechengskiy+rayon,+Nikel&t=h&z=11









This is not an official border crossing, but the tripoint between Russia, Norway and Finland. It can only be reached by foot. We went there at 01:00 AM (yes, in the middle of the night) and were promptly accompanied by a Norwegian soldier who made sure we did not cross into Russia. You are not under any circumstances allowed to walk around the tripoint.









Yet another sign stating the rules...









The border between Norway (on the right) and Finland (on the left) seen from the tripoint.









On the way back to the car we were allowed to walk alongside the border poles. The border is in the middle between the poles.


----------



## MrAkumana

eucitizen said:


> So I will trust you, when France will dismantle the border crossing in Perthus  Ok but the one from the video is on the belgian side. So if you are planning any journey to France , hopefully you will post something here.


The Spain-France Perthus border on the AP7-A9 motorway is the shame of Schengen... It's quite hard to find a moment of the day when there is not a teorically "exceptional police check".... what in fact means that most of the time you have to slow down and can only pass through if the police -after taking a look at your car- doesn't want to stop you for questioning (what they do to at least one out of ten cars).

UE comission has already asked several times to both countries to dismantle the border over the years (last time early this year), but so far no news. Actually, police presence has incresead over the last few years... and they take pride of annoucing more police controls at the border on local newspapers.

Moreover this is somenthing that makes no sense at all as none of the national roads or secondary roads between France and Spain on that very same area have any kind of border check. (ie: N260 to D914, NII to D71, GI-505 Las Super Lilas crossing, GI-503 Coustouges crossing etc etc).


----------



## Palance

Gareth said:


> Additionally, Norway & Finland have been part of the Nordic Passport Union for years (along with Demark, Sweden & Iceland), so there haven't been controlled borders for many decades.


I haven been checked in 1991 when arriving in Sweden by boat from Denmark. There was for sure an intensive fixed controlpoint in Malmö.


----------



## imag1

Denmark - Sweden at Øresund/Öresund.









Sweden - Norway.


----------



## preprep

imag1 said:


> Denmark - Sweden at Øresund/Öresund.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sweden - Norway.


Nice pics. See what those truely meant? Sigh.


----------



## Ginkgo

koloite said:


> The pictures below were taken in May 2006. We went on a road trip to northern Norway including both the North Cape and the Russian border. We did not cross the border into Russia.


 Am I correct that prior to World War II there was no Norwegian-Soviet border, that Finland extended up to the Arctic Ocean, thus separating Norway from the USSR? I assume too much time has passed for Finland to have any claims on the territory she lost to the USSR, now Russia.


----------



## nenea_hartia

Ginkgo said:


> Am I correct that prior to World War II there was no Norwegian-Soviet border, that Finland extended up to the Arctic Ocean, thus separating Norway from the USSR? I assume too much time has passed for Finland to have any claims on the territory she lost to the USSR, now Russia.


It is true. You can see here a map of the territories Finland have lost to the USSR. In fact, all European neighbors of the USSR, from Finland in the north to Romania in the south, suffered the same fate, losing territories or even entire countries (like the Baltic states) in the '40s and '50s.


----------



## julieCEO

The issue of Norway and Russia or Sweden is very difficult to solve. They can do it by them self if they want to do it.


----------



## ssd1

^^ Agreed.


----------



## desertpunk

Santa Fe bridge coming into El Paso From Ciudad Juarez Mexico.









@[email protected]

Bumper-to-bumper waiting to enter El Paso and the US.









@[email protected]

The Rio Grande separating the US and Mexico at El Paso.









@[email protected]

Ciudad Juarez just opposite the US border.









birdman of [email protected]

Bienvenidos a Mexico









peter [email protected]


----------



## Palance

Some pictures of small crossings between the Netherlands and Germany (taken 3 weeks ago)

Rekken (NL) / Oldenkott (DE).

























































The unmarked border between the Dutch village of Buurse and the German village of Alstätte. There is a gardencenter right on the border.



































The road between Enschede (NL) and Alstätte (DE)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> The unmarked border between the Dutch village of Buurse and the German village of Alstätte. There is a gardencenter right on the border.


Oh yeah, the Germans love that. A week ago I was entering the Netherlands in Venlo in a string of German cars. They all turned off the highway to the garden shop :lol:


----------



## mgk920

ChrisZwolle said:


> Oh yeah, the Germans love that. A week ago I was entering the Netherlands in Venlo in a string of German cars. They all turned off the highway to the garden shop :lol:


Ahhhh, must have been a sale on some reeeeeeeaaaallllly good stuff there that day!

kay:

Mike


----------



## Dan

What Sweden/Norway border is that second photo from?


----------



## Timon91

@Palance: nice pictures! About a month ago I had a beer in Café Rotering


----------



## mwadswor

The border between Thailand (Nong Khai) and Laos (Vientianne ... ish) (my pictures).

Exiting Thailand










Thailand drives on the left, Laos drives on the right. The roads cross at a light here.










Looking back across the Mekong. I'm in Laos, Thailand is the far side of the river.










Exiting Laos. Yes, the red flag on the right is a hammer and sickle 










Crossing the bridge back into Thailand. The flag with the white circle in the middle is the Lao flag. The flags change to the striped Thai national flag and yellow Thai royal flag on the Thai side of the bridge.


----------



## mwadswor

The border between Aranyaprathet, Thailand and Poi Pet, Cambodia (my pictures).

Entering Cambodia










The tall buildings are casinos. Gambling is illegal in both Thailand and Cambodia, but there is a sort of neutral zone along the border where gambling is allowed. It's big business for older Thais and tourists making a visa run who need the passport stamp but don't want to have to actually go into Cambodia.










The right side of the stream is Thailand, the left is Cambodia.


----------



## Feryuc

I love how the EU makes their speed limit signs, very easy to see for everyone...i wish he has those in North America...


----------



## snowman159

Today's webcam picture near the Finnish-Norwegian border:









Anyone know what happened there?


----------



## El Tiburon

Feryuc said:


> I love how the EU makes their speed limit signs, very easy to see for everyone...i wish he has those in North America...


American speed limits signs are clearer and easier to read than the European ones. Since they are regulatory signs, they have a white backgrouns with big bold black letters and numbers. There are no circles or colors to obscure the signs.


----------



## so0okol

Feryuc said:


> I love how the EU makes their speed limit signs, very easy to see for everyone...i wish he has those in North America...


Easy? It`s not in Poland . Poland`s sign:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Speed_limit_Poland.png


----------



## brisavoine

Penn's Woods said:


> Please. Belgium and its sociolinguistic geography fascinate me.


Well, the craziest is of course Brussels. Here you have a nice example of the silliness of the Belgian language border (it's a satellite view I posted in the Belgian forum last week). South of the red line, it's officially bilingual (French and Dutch) Brussels, whereas north of the red line it's unilingual (Dutch) Flanders, the Flemish municipality of Vilvorde precisely.

On both sides of the street, the majority of people are French speakers I believe. Yet if you live on the south side of the street, you can use either French or Dutch at the town hall, and you can receive administrative forms in either French or Dutch, whereas if you happen to live on the north side of the street, you cannot speak French at the town hall (it is forbidden to town hall employees to answer you in French), and you will receive administrative forms in Dutch only.

Don't you love Belgium? :nuts:


----------



## mgk920

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Welcome to Europe that blames America for using textual signs...


What does that Dutch sign say (translated into English), anyways?

:|

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It says the village of "Glane" is off-limits for through truck traffic.


----------



## Thermo

brisavoine said:


> Well, the craziest is of course Brussels. Here you have a nice example of the silliness of the Belgian language border (it's a satellite view I posted in the Belgian forum last week). South of the red line, it's officially bilingual (French and Dutch) Brussels, whereas north of the red line it's unilingual (Dutch) Flanders, the Flemish municipality of Vilvorde precisely.
> 
> On both sides of the street, the majority of people are French speakers I believe. Yet if you live on the south side of the street, you can use either French or Dutch at the town hall, and you can receive administrative forms in either French or Dutch, whereas if you happen to live on the north side of the street, you cannot speak French at the town hall (it is forbidden to town hall employees to answer you in French), and you will receive administrative forms in Dutch only.
> 
> Don't you love Belgium? :nuts:


Borders need to be respected, as silly as they sometimes are. It's like Baarle -Hertog and Baarle-Nassau, where the (Belgian-Dutch) border even goes through houses! You only get problems when people don't respect borders.


----------



## mwadswor

Jukrapp said:


> Nice . . .
> 
> 
> What about Germany-France, *Britain-France,* Italy-France, Norway-Russia, Sweden-Denmark . . . etc. ?


Britain-France


----------



## Glodenox

brisavoine said:


> On both sides of the street, the majority of people are French speakers I believe. Yet if you live on the south side of the street, you can use either French or Dutch at the town hall, and you can receive administrative forms in either French or Dutch, whereas if you happen to live on the north side of the street, you cannot speak French at the town hall (it is forbidden to town hall employees to answer you in French), and you will receive administrative forms in Dutch only.
> 
> Don't you love Belgium? :nuts:


It's not as if those people didn't know that would be the case if they'd buy/rent a house there :nuts: Funny enough I haven't heard anybody *who actually lives in that area* complain about the situation. The only people who are seeing problems are the politicians (on both sides). Sadly enough they're trying to put us up against eachother.

According to me, this also contributes to the problem: the latin sociology assumes that the area should adapt to what kind of people live in it, whereas the germanic sociology feels that people should adapt to the region they're going to. That's destined to cause struggles.

But we've had this kind of discussion before on the Belgian forums and I think it was pretty clear everybody was just adamant on their opinion and didn't care about what other people said - thus rendering it into several monologues instead of a discussion.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## brisavoine

Glodenox said:


> Funny enough I haven't heard anybody *who actually lives in that area* complain about the situation.


No? You must not have opened a Belgian newspaper in 3 years then. It's full of complaints by citizens living in the Brussels area.

Just one example among many others, this blog by a francophone Bruxellois (I neither support nor oppose this blog, it's just an example): http://www.francophonedebruxelles.com/


Glodenox said:


> According to me, this also contributes to the problem: the latin sociology assumes that the area should adapt to what kind of people live in it, whereas the germanic sociology feels that people should adapt to the region they're going to. That's destined to cause struggles.


That can be understandable when you move from one city to another city, like moving from Brussels to Antwerp. But when you move from one side of the street to the other side of the street, I don't think there is any "germanic sociology" that can explain why you suddenly have to change yourself entirely. The street is only 10 meter wide.


Glodenox said:


> But we've had this kind of discussion before on the Belgian forums and I think it was pretty clear everybody was just adamant on their opinion and didn't care about what other people said - thus rendering it into several monologues instead of a discussion.


If people were adamant and going into monologues, then that would seem to contradict your assertion that the people who actually live in that area don't complain about the situation.


----------



## Thermo

brisavoine said:


> No? You must not have opened a Belgian newspaper in 3 years then. It's full of complaints by citizens living in the Brussels area.
> 
> Just one example among many others, this blog by a francophone Bruxellois (I neither support nor oppose this blog, it's just an example): http://www.francophonedebruxelles.com/


That is a 'famous' anti-Flemish FDF-blog. But I understand it's one of your favourites...




> That can be understandable when you move from one city to another city, like moving from Brussels to Antwerp. But when you move from one side of the street to the other side of the street, I don't think there is any "germanic sociology" that can explain why you suddenly have to change yourself entirely. The street is only 10 meter wide.


They don't have to "change themselves entirely". Jeez, typical francophone hysteria. The only thing they should know and respect is that they live in an area where the official language is different (Dutch). They can speak whatever language they want at home, in a cafe, on the street,... but the language of the (local) authorities is Dutch. Is this so difficult to accept? When someone from Kortrijk moves to the outskirts of the city and suddenly finds himself across the border in France (by just going to the other side of a street!), do you think it's possible for him to ignore France and demand his documents in Dutch?


----------



## brisavoine

Thermo said:


> When someone from Kortrijk moves to the outskirts of the city and suddenly finds himself across the border in France (by just going to the other side of a street!), do you think it's possible for him to ignore France and demand his documents in Dutch?


1- the border is not in the outskirts of Courtrai, it is several kilometers to the south of the city, separated by some countryside. It's not like Brussels where the border is literally within the city itself, running across streets.

2- a person moving from Courtrai to Tourcoing will be able to speak Dutch at the Tourcoing city hall if there is an employee around that can speak Dutch. It is not forbidden to the city hall personnal in Tourcoing or elsewhere in northern France to speak Dutch. Also, a person from Courtrai can buy any house he/she wants in Tourcoing without the authorities having anything to say about it, whereas a person from Brussels who wants to buy a house or an apartment just across the street in Vilvorde has to submit an application to the Flemish Brabant evaluation commission (due to the "Wonen in eigen streek" decree) and prove that he/she has a "strong connection" with Vilvorde, otherwise the commission will make the sale of the house/apartment illegal. You'd be hard pressed to find such Orwellian policies in northern France or indeed in the rest of Europe.


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## Thermo

brisavoine said:


> 1- the border is not in the outskirts of Courtrai, it is several kilometers to the south of the city, separated by some countryside. It's not like Brussels where the border is literally within the city itself, running across streets.
> 
> 2- a person moving from Courtrai to Tourcoing will be able to speak Dutch at the Tourcoing city hall if there is an employee around that can speak Dutch. It is not forbidden to the city hall personnal in Tourcoing or elsewhere in northern France to speak Dutch. Also, a person from Courtrai can buy any house he/she wants in Tourcoing without the authorities having anything to say about it, whereas a person from Brussels who wants to buy a house or an apartment just across the street in Vilvorde has to submit an application to the Flemish Brabant evaluation commission (due to the "Wonen in eigen streek" decree) and prove that he/she has a "strong connection" with Vilvorde, otherwise the commission will make the sale of the house/apartment illegal. You'd be hard pressed to find such Orwellian policies in northern France or indeed in the rest of Europe.


On the first sight it might seem a bit 'Orwellian', but you have to understand where it comes from. French is a 'bigger' language than Dutch. Where the 2 languages come together (like in Brussels), the strongest always wins. Please, please try to understand that Flemish authorities want to protect the Dutch language in Flemish villages. It's because a large numer of Francophones refuse to learn a bit of Dutch that these measures exist. Tell me, is it really so hard to learn a few words Dutch to communicate with the local authorities? All these francophones claim to love Belgium so much, is it than really to much to learn a few words of the majority language of Belgium?

Just look at towns like Oostende, Knokke, De Panne, or even Gent and Antwerp! In all these towns there are francophones living in perfect harmony with their Flemish neighbours. You know why? Because they don't demand all their documents in French, and they certainly don't demand that these towns become part of Brussels or Wallonia. The same for the large number of Flemish residents in Wallonia. 

The problem is the arrogance of a number of Brussels francophones (not all of them ofcourse), driven by political parties who encourage them not to adapt.


Now back on topic!


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## brisavoine

Thermo said:


> Please, please try to understand that Flemish authorities want to protect the Dutch language in Flemish villages.


The picture I posted above (post #3041) is not a village.


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## MrAkumana

Thermo said:


> On the first sight it might seem a bit 'Orwellian', but you have to understand where it comes from. French is a 'bigger' language than Dutch. Where the 2 languages come together (like in Brussels), the strongest always wins. Please, please try to understand that Flemish authorities want to protect the Dutch language in Flemish villages. It's because a large numer of Francophones refuse to learn a bit of Dutch that these measures exist.


Unfortunatelly Europe has way too many areas with language conflicts. I personally think that all of them could be solved quite easily as most of the people that live in bilingual areas are very tolerant and understanding with each other. Problem is that politicians usually take advantage from the language conflicts and use them in their favor to get votes or more money to their area. Of course for a politician will always be better to say that "the conflict is for the language", rather than "the conflict is for the money and power". Unfortunatelly after so many years of reading and hearing politicians say certain things a part of the population start to believe it is true...

In Belgium it would be as easy as to make both languages official and accepted for the public administration everywhere. What's the point on drawing lines? Each language is spoken on strong states (Nederlands and France) so there's not much risk of one of them actually disapering.

I say Belgium because you are speaking of that, but this very same reasoning could be used in dozens of other areas of Europe. 

This thread about border crossing and its pictures should make us specially aware of how arbitrary borders usually are. Average people tend to keep that in mind and be understanding with the languages. Problem is politicians don't want that, and keep using language fears and the local nationalisms as arms to get more power and money not caring for the consecuenses. Every bilingual area of europe has its own share of unnecesary antipatic laws agaisnt one of the 2 languages.


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## binhai

I might have said this already, but I just looooove Schengen


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## mgk920

ChrisZwolle said:


> It says the village of "Glane" is off-limits for through truck traffic.


They should just put up a more normal 'no trucks' sign.

:nuts:

Mike


----------



## Glodenox

brisavoine said:


> No? You must not have opened a Belgian newspaper in 3 years then. It's full of complaints by citizens living in the Brussels area.


I, on purpose, read those newspapers but I don't want to rely on them for factual information about how people think. I KNOW quite a few people (both French and Dutch-speaking) who live just next to those "borders", and they don't have any real issues. They know that if they go to the town hall, they'll have to speak Dutch. There are just a few people who simply refuse to adapt to their neighbourhood and sicken it for everybody (and then I'm NOT talking about language, they just don't care about the people living there).



brisavoine said:


> That can be understandable when you move from one city to another city, like moving from Brussels to Antwerp. But when you move from one side of the street to the other side of the street, I don't think there is any "germanic sociology" that can explain why you suddenly have to change yourself entirely. The street is only 10 meter wide.


If you're 17 years and 10 months old, do you have a reason to complain you can't do something only 18+ people can do? A border is a border, simple as that. Nothing to complain about and nothing to say about it. You even completely looked past my mention of "they knew that moving there would require them to speak Dutch at the town hall", which was the key phrase. The fact that you apparently refuse to acknowledge this seems to me that you just can't grasp the bigger picture. I'm glad I can say that I do.

And if I didn't make it clear enough: I can understand why people don't like that they have to make that change (although it's hardly any, how often do you really go to the town hall?). They feel that their town's identity should reflect theirs, but that simply doesn't stroke with how we think about towns.



brisavoine said:


> If people were adamant and going into monologues, then that would seem to contradict your assertion that the people who actually live in that area don't complain about the situation.


Do you actually think that everybody who complains on these forums actually lives there? I guess I shouldn't have written it as if "everybody was adamant about what they thought", but I assumed you would've understood I meant with that that most people didn't care about what others wrote. I don't see any contradiction here.


And with this reply, I conclude my part in this discussion. I think we've littered this topic enough with this useless discussion. My personal conclusion remains that most people don't have any problems and can get along very well near those borders, but that there are a bunch of people who can't grasp that when moving to another area (no matter how close it is, a border is a border), some things may change.

Greetings,
Glodenox


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## nenea_hartia

Glodenox said:


> And with this reply, I conclude my part in this discussion. I think we've littered this topic enough with this useless discussion.


No, please carry on. This is giving me, as an East European, a live opportunity to see how this kind of issues is solved in the Western and more civilized part of the old continent. :jk:

Now very seriously speaking, your debate here is very interesting and *very on-topic* if you ask me. I think this thread is not only about some beautiful pictures made in some distant border crossing, but also about how people _feel_ and what people _think_ living one side or the other of an international, or why not, an internal border. Trust me, reading your replies you kinda forced me (in a very good way) to try to find out and learn more about people living in today's Belgium and of course, about their history. And for this, I can only thank you.


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## brisavoine

Glodenox said:


> A border is a border, simple as that.


Wow, that's such a postnational, post-Schengen mentality...


Glodenox said:


> My personal conclusion remains that most people don't have any problems and can get along very well near those borders, but that there are a bunch of people who can't grasp that when moving to another area (no matter how close it is, a border is a border), some things may change.


If the problem concerned only a "bunch of people", and the larger public couldn't care less about the issue, then surely Belgium wouldn't be in the midst of its worst political crisis since 1830.


nenea_hartia said:


> Now very seriously speaking, your debate here is very interesting and *very on-topic* if you ask me.


Yeah, but the Belgians don't like outsiders to talk about their problems. Ils préfèrent laver leur linge sale en famille.


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## Surel

nenea_hartia said:


> No, please carry on. This is giving me, as an East European, a live opportunity to see how this kind of issues is solved in the Western and more civilized part of the old continent. :jk:


Indeed. It is utermost interesting to see the Belgium dirty laundry on the bright light. In fact, your short discussion made me register in SSH while I had been following this forum for around half a year. I must pay a compliment to all forumers for their great enthusiasm and care with which they presented to me the magic of european highways and motorways. Thank you.

Just to give a short not. As a Czech citizen residing in the Netherlands, living with a Nederlander I think I am qualified to say something about borders, languages and so forth. I guess, all the borders are here more or less to divide people. All the special requirements which language to speak and which language to use for forms make life of people just harder. The point is, is there an objective obstacle for the city hall clerk to respond in other language then french/dutch whatever towards the people living behind the line? I accept that argument that people moving to there knew what they can accept. But that is not what we should be concerned about. We should be concerned about their well being and that is certainly not improved by this law. 

The same can be applied towards the EU as a whole. What does it mean to a nation and what does it mean to a individual. When I ask czech tax office to give me documents in english instead of czech, they will just laugh at me. Ok, but for the Dutch authorities the english would be acceptable, the czech has to be translated to dutch. The problem is not that the clerks would not be able to give it in english, it is just a sentence. The problem are "regulations". Perhaps it is important for a nation to operate in a national language, but is it important for an individual? I guess not so much.

Just look at the stupidity of the regulations on this example. Imagine if the language of a internet forum would be compulsory and based on a country of residence of a given forum. Or imagine, that everyone would be bind to use the language of his her residence on internet forums. :/.

I guess it would be great if english would be accepted in the whole europe as one of the official languages, regardless of the country. This would be something that would help individuals a lot.

Borders and obstacles are important for polititions mainly, because it is nice for them to be a big fish in a small pond, than the small fish in the sea. They like to have people divided, it is easier to control them. For individual people it doesnt make any difference especially in the country where the cultural and socio-economical characteristics are more or less same.

I close it with funny comment on one czech news site. The news was that german police checks 70 % of buses on regular lines crossing the German border from Czech R. Someone commented, that his grandgrandfather went in the start of the century from Prague to Paris and the only thing he needed was the trainticket. We are now not even close to that, Schengen or no Schengen.


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## Penn's Woods

Surel said:


> I guess it would be great if english would be accepted in the whole europe as one of the official languages, regardless of the country.


No. No, no, no, no, no.

English belongs first and foremost to its native speakers. If all of Europe adopts English (or rather, what it thinks of as English) as its Esperanto, the next step will be continentals complaining that Brits, Americans, and so on, use words and expressions they don't understand. (Actually, the New York Times a few years ago published a column suggesting that native speakers of English water down their English out of consideration to foreigners.)... Very few people - try as hard as they might - ever speak a language other than their own perfectly. (And I count myself as a person who tries very hard in, for example, French, but will always be an obvious foreigner, so take no offense at what I'm saying here.) Many more people speak their second language fairly well, but occasionally say (for example) "the whole Europe," when they mean "the whole *of* Europe" or "all of Europe." Many more people speak and write their second language in a way that makes it difficult if not impossible for native speakers to understand. And some people just aren't good at languages.

I shudder to think what a Europe with English as its official second language would look like. (Or rather, what the mutilated English of that Europe would look like.) Learn each other's languages - if you're so inclined - and English too (again if you feel the inclination or the need); strengthen your own; appreciate the diversity you have...and Belgium's my favorite European country but I'm avoiding expressing opinions on the current situation. I'll just say that, from my observation post across the Atlantic (and regular reading of Le Soir, La Libre AND De Standaard, and as much of the history as I can get) there are apparently faults on both sides, and a lack of understanding of the other side's point of view is among them.


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## brisavoine

Surel said:


> Someone commented, that his grandgrandfather went in the start of the century from Prague to Paris and the only thing he needed was the trainticket.


I sort of doubt it. You would have had to cross the border between the German Empire and the French Republic, and that wasn't a piece of cake.











Penn's Woods said:


> And I count myself as a person who tries very hard in, for example, French


Allez, vas y, montre-nous.


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## Alqaszar

The Flemish are a bit paranoic, but that sure has historical reasons. Belgium was foundes as a French-speaking country, and Flemish was just a language of the lower class in Flanders, while even the borgeoisie spoke french wich was in the 19th century a lingua france in Europe, like English today.

Then, the Wallonian south of Belgium had the calssic montane industries which made Belgium to one of the earliest indsutrialised countries on the continent. So the Wallonians had all cultural, political and economical dominance.

Since 1831, this situation has changed radically. Today Flanders is the richer part of Belgium, while the Wallonians have to deal with the rotting old industries along the Sambre and Meuse rivers, wehre the circumstances are just like in any other European post-industrial area like the Ruhr Valley here in Germany, for example.

Unemployment is high, while the old working class being in a passive position. While being in parts of Liège, you can see and feel that, it reminds me exactly of the atmosphere in Duisburg or parts of Dortmund. The population has not entirely understood that they have to get "their asses up", and many depend on social wellfare, some even in the second or third generation after their fathers or grandfathers lost their formerly well-paid jobs in the steel and coal industry. People seem passive and eegerless, and that is what I can recognize in the Flemish resentiments: Wallonians, get your butts moving, we don't want to pay for you any more.

Same happens here, where the former agricultural and poor Bavaria developed into Germany's richest Land and now doesn't want to pay their share of support for the poorer lands in the East or West.

But in Belgium, that discussion is very heated because of the Vlaams Blok (now Vlaams Belang) party, wich is one of the new populistic, xenophobic right-wing-aprties we have in Europe since the early Nineties (Lega Nord in Italy, FPÖ in Austria, SVP in Switzerland, PVV in the Netherlands...) and cooking their own anti-democartic soup on that issue. So the debate looks a bit overheated from the outsider, and the other parties don't do anything to make a better impression. The BHV problem, which led to the actual political crisis in Belgium, is the best example.

Here we are back at the problems of borders, this time of electional districts.

However, it's hard to understand, that a country with two official languages, Flemish and French, is not able to provide at least a basic service in both languages in all its territory. In Brussels, English would be athrid option, because this is really an international city.

Noone expects that the whole country starts to learn German because of the 20,000 German speaking Belgians in the East, making German the third official language of Belgium, but at least Flemish and French should be accepted nationwide.

Borders in Europe are there to be torn down, because they are are relict from the past, when kings and despotes used them to line their power and use their underlings as bloodspill. But like we got rid of those despotes, like we (almost) got rid of war in Europe, we have to get rid of the poisenous idea of nationalism and their borders.


----------



## Josh

brisavoine said:


> Wow, that's such a postnational, post-Schengen mentality...


Weird reaction considering your reply in another thread when I mentioned a Fleming moving from Wervik to Werviqc-Sud also having to adapt to his new French speaking environment : 



brisavoine said:


> 1- Wervik et Wervicq-Sud ne sont pas situés dans le même pays. Bruxelles et la Flandre, jusqu'aux dernières nouvelles, sont dans le même pays : la Belgique. Tu comprends la différence ?


So borders between France and Flanders should be respected but borders between regions not?


----------



## Josh

Alqaszar said:


> However, it's hard to understand, that a country with two official languages, Flemish and French, is not able to provide at least a basic service in both languages in all its territory. In Brussels, English would be athrid option, because this is really an international city.
> 
> Noone expects that the whole country starts to learn German because of the 20,000 German speaking Belgians in the East, making German the third official language of Belgium, but at least Flemish and French should be accepted nationwide.
> 
> Borders in Europe are there to be torn down, because they are are relict from the past, when kings and despotes used them to line their power and use their underlings as bloodspill. But like we got rid of those despotes, like we (almost) got rid of war in Europe, we have to get rid of the poisenous idea of nationalism and their borders.


First of all, there are about 70,000 German speakers in the east of Belgium. 

Secondly, Belgium does have three official languages but each language is only official on part of the territory : Dutch in Flanders and Brussels, French in Wallonia and Brussels and German in the east. This means that local and regional authorities can only use the official language of the region but federal authorities can use each of the three official languages in contacts with a person, no matter in what region he lives. So a Francophone inhabitant from Oostende will receive his regional water tax document in Dutch (regional competence) but his road tax document will be in French since it's a federal competence.


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## MAG

Fascinating discussion!

.


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## nenea_hartia

Can you please post a comprehensive map or a link to a map showing the ethnic/linguistic and administrative boundaries in Belgium? Many thanks.


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## Penn's Woods

Let me just say to Surel, after my little rant [blushes], that I ought to have indicated that you - judging from that one post - are among those whose English is near-perfect (like Chriszwolle and Brisavoine*) rather than just picking on one little lapse from idiom. But that's sort of my point. It's just about impossible to ever speak a language you're not born into as well as its native speakers do, or as well as you do your own....

'nuff said.

*and I'm sure are others here....


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## Penn's Woods

à Brisavoine, vous vous intéresseriez, peut-être, à cette discussion-ci (je crois que les non abonnés peuvent lire le forum) :

http://forums.lemonde.fr/perl/showt...mber=3054776&page=2&view=collapsed&sb=5&part=

Vous pourriez m'identifier, peut-être, de par mon pseudo.

En effet, je lis le plus que possible en français, et je me suis inscris au forum du Monde (et plusieurs autres, mais je me trouve là plusieurs heures par jour) principalement par souci d'améliorer mon français. Qui n'est pas encore au niveau de votre anglais, mais - j'espère - presque....

Bien à vous.


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## Penn's Woods

Nenea Hartia: if you read French, this site will tell you everything you ever wanted to know, and then some, about the Belgian situation. (And it's in French, but based in Quebec. It's a site that specializes in what I'd call the sociolinguistic policy of probably every country in the world. So I don't think they particularly take sides in the Belgian situation.)

http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/Europe/belgiqueacc.htm

If you don't read French, go to Wikipedia in the language of your choice, look up Belgium, and start digging....


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## Penn's Woods

Okay (in particular in response to Josh's point about respecting regional borders), one opinion from a non-Belgian: it seems to me that drawing a line through what were already the outer suburbs of a major city and expecting said suburbs to continue using *exclusively* a language other than the majority language of the city... well, say what you like about whether the policy was justified or not, but I think it wasn't likely to work. And indeed it hasn't.

We're not talking about individual people moving across a national border, or a regional one. Francophone Belgians moving to (or already living in) Ghent or Antwerp should understand and respect that Dutch is the language of that part of the country. Just as Flemings moving to Liège or Charleroi do and always have done. But here, we're talking about entire Dutch- (or Flemish-, or dialect-) speaking towns turning into suburbs of a (largely) French-speaking city in a relatively short time. So that analogy doesn't quite work.

There must be a way of respecting the fact that "the Periphery" is *both* Flemish *and* part of metropolitan Brussels. I don't know what that way is, though. And it's up to Belgians, of course, to find it. As an interested foreigner I sincerely hope they succeed. And I don't see how splitting the country would solve the problem, since Flanders would still have a large Francophone minority (majority in certain communities) on its hands.


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## brisavoine

Alqaszar said:


> the Flemish resentiments: Wallonians, get your butts moving, we don't want to pay for you any more.


The Belgian government has agreed to give 2.5 to 3 billion euros to bail out Greece. That means each Fleming will pay more than 300 euros per person for the Greeks, without any Flemish party protesting against it. Apparently it's ok to give money to the Greeks, but not ok to give money to the Walloons. Go figure! :nuts:


----------



## brisavoine

Josh said:


> So borders between France and Flanders should be respected but borders between regions not?


No, what I meant is it's insane that internal borders should be more tight and insulating than international borders.


----------



## brisavoine

nenea_hartia said:


> Can you please post a comprehensive map or a link to a map showing the ethnic/linguistic and administrative boundaries in Belgium? Many thanks.


This is the situation in the Brussels area (the only area in Belgium where there are language/border/community problems).

The first map shows the real language border today (black line). Dutch-speaking and French-speaking minorities exist on both sides of the border of course, but the orange and blue areas show the areas where the Dutch and the French speakers are the majority.









The second map shows the current political regions (political borders are shown in purple on this Michelin map). The Brussels Capital Region is officially bilingual (French and Dutch), the Flemish Region is officially unilingual (Dutch only, except in 6 municipalities where limited language rights are available to the French speakers), and the Walloon Region is officially unilingual (French only). For an idea of distances, the borders of the Brussels Capital Region and the Walloon Region are separated by only 3.1 km at the narrowest (I indicated 3.1 km in pale yellow on the map).









As you can see, the political borders do not correspond to the real language border anymore, which is why they are having problems.


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## brisavoine

Penn's Woods said:


> à Brisavoine, vous vous intéresseriez, peut-être [...]


Tu peux me dire tu.


----------



## Penn's Woods

brisavoine said:


> This is the situation in the Brussels area (the only area in Belgium where there are language/border/community problems).


There's also the Voerstreek/les Fourons. Although I gather the situation there is not as heated as it used to be.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourons


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## brisavoine

Penn's Woods said:


> There's also the Voerstreek/les Fourons. Although I gather the situation there is not as heated as it used to be.
> 
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourons


Yeah, it's not an issue anymore today.


----------



## Thermo

brisavoine said:


> As you can see, the political borders do not correspond to the real language border anymore, which is why they are having problems.


So what? If a Brussels district like Molenbeek or Schaarbeek has a majority of Moroccan people, shoud it become part of Morocco? :lol:

Borders are to be respected. Period.

This is a good map I found on the Rock Werchter forum (only without the German-speaking community in the east of Wallonia...):










Major cities in Flanders are:
- Antwerp
- Ghent
- Bruges
- Leuven
- Hasselt

Major cities in Wallonia are:
- Charleroi
- Liège
- Namur
- Mons


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## ChrisZwolle

Wouldn't the problems be solved if there were more of these so-called "language facility municipalities" in the Brussels region? I know you can't expect to get things in French in Oostende or in Dutch in Neufchâteau, but I would expect some bilinguality in forms and official papers around that language border.

I think this issue also has to do with the city of Brussels, which is quickly degrading and French-middle class residents are moving outside the city proper to the suburbs, which tend to be mostly in Flanders because Brussels is more or less an enclave.


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## nenea_hartia

Penn's Woods said:


> Nenea Hartia: if you read French, this site will tell you everything you ever wanted to know, and then some, about the Belgian situation. (And it's in French, but based in Quebec. It's a site that specializes in what I'd call the sociolinguistic policy of probably every country in the world. So I don't think they particularly take sides in the Belgian situation.)
> 
> http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/Europe/belgiqueacc.htm
> 
> If you don't read French, go to Wikipedia in the language of your choice, look up Belgium, and start digging....


Thank you for the link, it's _very_ useful . I read some French and it looks like the perfect site to start. I also wish to thank you all for the maps you've posted.


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## Penn's Woods

Belgian-situation-related *and* highway-related news item of the day  (in French) :

http://www.lalibre.be/toutelinfo/be...les-autoroutes-flamandes-par-le-voorpost.html


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## Surel

brisavoine said:


> I sort of doubt it. You would have had to cross the border between the German Empire and the French Republic, and that wasn't a piece of cake.
> D


I don't know. I wasn't there but I can believe it... wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passport
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement#History

Although individual states issued passports prior to the First World War, systematic identity controls at borders were largely unknown and passports were unnecessary for international travel.[3] The War and its aftermath brought with it a higher sensitivity to issues of nationality and passport controls became an ordinary feature of international travel.[4] Notwithstanding the raising of passport controls in Europe during and after the First World War, some zones of free movement did continue.

...

The rapid expansion of rail travel in Europe from the mid-nineteenth century led to a breakdown of the European passport system of the early part of the nineteenth century. The speed of trains, as well as the numbers of passengers that crossed many borders, made enforcement of passport laws difficult. The general reaction was the relaxation of passport requirements.[3] In the later part of the nineteenth century and up to World War I, passports were not required, on the whole, for travel within Europe, and crossing a border was straightforward. Consequently, comparatively few people had passports.

...

During World War I, European governments introduced border passport requirements for security reasons (to keep out spies) and to control the emigration of citizens with useful skills, retaining potential manpower. These controls remained in place after the war, and became standard procedure, though not without controversy. British tourists of the 1920s complained, especially about attached photographs and physical descriptions, which they considered led to a "nasty dehumanisation".


----------



## brisavoine

Thermo said:


> So what? If a Brussels district like Molenbeek or Schaarbeek has a majority of Moroccan people, shoud it become part of Morocco? :lol:


So for you the Francophone Belgians are like immigrants? Immigrants into their own country? Fascinating insight into the Flemish mind...


Thermo said:


> Borders are to be respected. Period.


Like I said, that's so postnational, so post-Schengen... :|


----------



## brisavoine

Penn's Woods said:


> Belgian-situation-related *and* highway-related news item of the day  (in French) :
> 
> http://www.lalibre.be/toutelinfo/be...les-autoroutes-flamandes-par-le-voorpost.html


That's nothing compared to the other ridiculous things happening in Belgian transports, like the trains on the Liège-Brussels line, a line which crosses the Wallonia-Flanders border several time, so sometimes the announcements are in Dutch only, and sometimes the announcements are in French only. :nuts:

Last year there was the case of a train from Wallonia to Brussels which broke down while crossing Flemish territory, so all the passengers had to leave the train and take buses to Brussels. At the local train station where the train broke down, the employees of the train company refused to speak French to the mostly French-speaking passengers, because they were "on Flemish territory", where only Dutch is official. 

Only in Belgium!


----------



## Surel

Penn's Woods said:


> No. No, no, no, no, no.
> 
> English belongs first and foremost to its native speakers. If all of Europe adopts English (or rather, what it thinks of as English) as its Esperanto, the next step will be continentals complaining that Brits, Americans, and so on, use words and expressions they don't understand. (Actually, the New York Times a few years ago published a column suggesting that native speakers of English water down their English out of consideration to foreigners.)...


I could not say that English belongs to anyone. It is just a language. Perhaps Java belongs to the Sun Inc. but only for around 20? years. :lol:





> Very few people - try as hard as they might - ever speak a language other than their own perfectly.


I agree. Therefore I would welcome if English would be accepted as official language in every European country . I really don't feel that strong in my Dutch and I guess that Dutch officials don't know much from Czech (considering they know the country at all.). We could hardly argue about the position of English in the modern society. Analogy with Latin and middle ages comes at hand, its just comes handy that Eglish is much easier language . What I wanted to say is that we should be concerned about well being of individuals not nations. For an individual is much easier to learn one foreign language and use it at some acceptable level than to learn 25 or how many languages not being able to use them at all. BTW some of the documents issued by EU institutions are available only in English anyway. So to speak for me it makes more sence to use english when approaching the Dutch institution than my Dutch, and for the people on the other side holds the same. When my Dutch reaches the level that using it would yield better results I will certainly use it.



> I shudder to think what a Europe with English as its official second language would look like. (Or rather, what the mutilated English of that Europe would look like.)


An Indian speaking mutilated English would make it clear . Just funny is that he is native .


As long as it is about Belgium I guess they should either learn how to accept each other (Do I remember correctly that I read in Brussel's atomium Belgish boasting about their trilinguality?The expo was around 50s... exhibition is there still ). Interesting that Swiss can do that for centuries without problems. I would say that the Belgish problem will be more economy and political driven than anything else. And when we look at the difference in the economic situation of the Netherlands and France we cut the knot.


----------



## MAG

brisavoine said:


> ... the employees of the train company refused to speak French to the mostly French-speaking passengers, because they were "on Flemish territory", where only Dutch is official.


Oh ...
my ...
God!

What about good old courtesy?




Penn's Woods said:


> Let me just say to Surel, after my little rant ...


It’s not like we haven’t noticed that you are impartial to the occasional bout of ranting. 




Penn's Woods said:


> But that's sort of my point. It's just about impossible to ever speak a language you're not born into ...


You have a point there but you must not overstate your argument. 

In my view, the ability to speak (or use) another language well is highly correlated to several factors, not least of which is your own linguistic point of reference, that is, your own language. A Dane will find it easy to learn Swedish but ask him to learn Russian and he’ll find the task daunting, if not impossible. Similarly, a native English speaker should find it easy to learn several European languages including French, Spanish, German and Dutch as they have similar general structure and grammar. And yes, every language has its quirks, rule exceptions and other irregularities, not to mention idioms, which only native speakers are likely to know intimately (though some never seem to do). But that does not mean that you cannot learn all that stuff – it’s jolly hard but not impossible. In my view it’s all about exposure, opportunity, practice and innate ability.

Surel’s proposal of having a common European second language is not as daft as it might seem at first. Imagine going a on a trip to another EU state and falling ill or having an accident (or whatever else may befall your fate). How would you get yourself out of trouble without knowing the local lingo? Of course, you can spend your way out of trouble but that is not equal access. Or you might use that well-tried-and-tested method of speaking slowly and loudly in your own language in the vain hope that someone might understand you. 

A common second language is a very practical and utilitarian solution. The advantage of having just one second language is that life becomes that little bit more predictable in times of need. Of course, which language we should pick on is political dynamite. But, as they say, possession is nine tenths of the law so English would be a natural choice.

On this forum, there is a plurality of linguistic reference points and hence there is a large disparity in how cleanly users use English. Try as you might, you will never eradicate this issue. Nor should you try to because this is not a forum for language geeks but a forum for road geeks and we allow a bit of grammatical slack.

Personally, I find learning languages akin to having my wisdom tooth pulled out - it is just not my thing. My better half, on the other hand, is fluent in three and has functional use of another three languages. To her it’s all child's play. But we all have a basic need to communicate and exchange ideas. Therefore, instead of getting distressed that your native language gets butchered, distorted, contorted and otherwise screwed up here on this forum, may I suggest - and I mean it in the nicest possible way - that you just politely turn a blind eye to it every now and then, and we’ll all get on marvellously well. Or at least develop a positive attitude towards this perceived ‘problem’. None of our mistakes are intentional or malicious but rather they all stem from our diverse abilities to learn and communicate effectively in that strange, aurally pleasant yet often unfathomable lingo known as English. 


.


----------



## Thermo

brisavoine said:


> So for you the Francophone Belgians are like immigrants? Immigrants into their own country? Fascinating insight into the Flemish mind...


In a way, yes, they are immigrants in Flanders. Just like Flemish people in Wallonia are.
Just like someone from Texas needs to accept the laws of California if he decides to live in California. 

Even *internal *borders need to be respected *to keep the peace*. Belgium is a *federal state*, so the 'states' Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels act a bit as 'semi-countries' within Belgium. Clearly, you don't understand *federal *logic.

I don't think Québec would be happy if Ontario systematically claimed Québec territory, don't you think?


----------



## Thermo

brisavoine said:


> Like I said, that's so postnational, so post-Schengen... :|


As if France would ever give up some of its territory... :lol:


----------



## Glodenox

Yep, I'm replying here again. Seeing us Flemish and Belgians getting trashed this hard by a person makes my heart bleed.


I'd like to add a small anecdote of what has happened about 3 times to me in the 3 years I travelled between Antwerp (Dutch) and Brussels (not into Brussels itself, but only towards it), which will shed some light from another direction as well on that train breakdown story:

Sometimes it's a bit hard (even for me) to understand which train has just arrived on the platform in my local station because two trains with different destinations arrive quite shortly after each other. Therefore I sometimes ask which train it is at the conductor.

In total I've had that situation roughly 60 times. 2 times I had to explain myself in French because the conductor couldn't even understand "Does this train go towards [station name]?" in Dutch (which in itself is extremely simple phrase). I could've easily perceived this as "He/She simply refuses to help me in my language?!" as well.

While I was not there when that train broke down, I'm 99% certain that person simply didn't know any French (I guess the company doesn't take into account that while the territory is Dutch-speaking, lots of French-speaking people would pass through there as well).

That's a completely different look at the same situation, with a much more logical explanation. It may look like refusing, but could very well mean that the person really doesn't know the language - since the company doesn't require that there.

Also understand that I didn't really mind about having to switch to French in those situations, but some people (from both sides of the language border) apparently misinterpret these situations completely. The media seems to like this kind of stories nowadays.

I'm not aware of a single rule that says that people working at the stations may not help people in other languages and I've never experienced something like that when I was elsewhere in Belgium, so according to me that story is complete rubbish. Unless it got confirmed by the rail company, I'm not impressed.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## brisavoine

MAG said:


> Oh ...
> my ...
> God!
> 
> What about good old courtesy?


If you tell that to the Flemish employees at that local train station, they'll probably answer something along the lines of "when the Bruxellois shop keepers start talking to us in Dutch when we go shopping in Brussels, we'll start talking French to the Francophone clients in the train station here". And the circle goes on...


----------



## brisavoine

Thermo said:


> As if France would ever give up some of its territory... :lol:


What does that have to do with an internal border within Belgium?


Thermo said:


> I don't think Québec would be happy if Ontario systematically claimed Québec territory, don't you think?


For the records, Wallonia is not claiming any Flemish territory. The issue in Belgium is whether Brussels, a bilingual region, should expand and annex 6 largely French-speaking municipalities located on Flemish territory. It's not as if these 6 municipalities would be "lost" to the Flemings, because Brussels, again, is a bilingual city, French and Dutch speaking.


----------



## Thermo

brisavoine said:


> For the records, Wallonia is not claiming any Flemish territory. The issue in Belgium is whether Brussels, a bilingual region, should expand and annex 6 largely French-speaking municipalities located on Flemish territory. It's not as if these 6 municipalities would be "lost" to the Flemings, because Brussels, again, is a bilingual city, French and Dutch speaking.


Now we come to the point. Brussels is indeed officially "bilingual", but *in fact, in reality*, it is French-speaking. *"Bilingual" in Belgium means in fact French-speaking.*

That is why Flanders is afraid to loose some of its territory because it knows it will be lost forever. Brussels once was a Dutch-speaking city... and look at the situation today.... 

For those who want a good map of the current situation:










Belgium is a federal state. Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels all have their own parliament and government.


----------



## nenea_hartia

But what about the Germans in the east of Belgium ? What do they think about the current issues between French-speaking and Dutch-speaking Belgians ? And another question: do they have some particular rights in the French-speaking Wallonia ?


----------



## Penn's Woods

MAG said:


> Oh ...
> my ...
> God!
> 
> What about good old courtesy?
> 
> 
> 
> It’s not like we haven’t noticed that you are impartial to the occasional bout of ranting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have a point there but you must not overstate your argument.
> 
> In my view, the ability to speak (or use) another language well is highly correlated to several factors, not least of which is your own linguistic point of reference, that is, your own language. A Dane will find it easy to learn Swedish but ask him to learn Russian and he’ll find the task daunting, if not impossible. Similarly, a native English speaker should find it easy to learn several European languages including French, Spanish, German and Dutch as they have similar general structure and grammar. And yes, every language has its quirks, rule exceptions and other irregularities, not to mention idioms, which only native speakers are likely to know intimately (though some never seem to do). But that does not mean that you cannot learn all that stuff – it’s jolly hard but not impossible. In my view it’s all about exposure, opportunity, practice and innate ability.
> 
> Surel’s proposal of having a common European second language is not as daft as it might seem at first. Imagine going a on a trip to another EU state and falling ill or having an accident (or whatever else may befall your fate). How would you get yourself out of trouble without knowing the local lingo? Of course, you can spend your way out of trouble but that is not equal access. Or you might use that well-tried-and-tested method of speaking slowly and loudly in your own language in the vain hope that someone might understand you.
> 
> A common second language is a very practical and utilitarian solution. The advantage of having just one second language is that life becomes that little bit more predictable in times of need. Of course, which language we should pick on is political dynamite. But, as they say, possession is nine tenths of the law so English would be a natural choice.
> 
> On this forum, there is a plurality of linguistic reference points and hence there is a large disparity in how cleanly users use English. Try as you might, you will never eradicate this issue. Nor should you try because this is not a forum for language geeks but a forum for road geeks and we allow a bit of grammatical slack.
> 
> Personally, I find learning languages akin to having my wisdom tooth pulled out - it is just not my thing. My better half, on the other hand, is fluent in three and has functional use of another three languages. To her it’s all child's play. But we all have a basic need to communicate and exchange ideas. Therefore, instead of getting distressed that your native language gets butchered, distorted, contorted and otherwise screwed up here on this forum, may I suggest - and I mean it in the nicest possible way - that you just politely turn a blind eye to it every now and then, and we’ll all get on marvellously well. Or at least develop a positive attitude towards this perceived ‘problem’. None of our mistakes are intentional or malicious but rather they all stem from our diverse abilities to learn and communicate effectively in that strange, aurally pleasant yet often unfathomable lingo known as English.
> 
> 
> .


Sure, I understand what you're saying. I certainly didn't mean to pick on Surel for a *very* minor error. And the quality of English on this forum doesn't bother me. (I make an exception for the old post I read a couple of weeks ago when a non-English speaker put someone else down with "No one says Cologne today." Which is untrue, and _not for him to say_: our language, we get to make the rules - organically, in the way normal languages develop - it's up to non-native-speakers to learn it the best they can, not to change its rules for their convenience. And sure as hell not to use their idea of what it should be like as a tool to be rude to others.)

The issues I see here is...in the Europe I first discovered in the 80s, most people seemed to learn several languages. Dutch people then all learned English, French and German. I can still remember hearing a restaurant hostess in Amsterdam switch effortlessly among all four. I really envy that ability and even more so the opportunity to develop it. I love languages myself but am stuck in one of the most monolingual environments imaginable (and it was worse before I could get, say, a French newscast on the Internet, or watch a French DVD with the subtitles turned off so I have to try to understand....) The trend towards everyone in Europe using English as a second language is worrisome from a European point of view because it seems to me a step backwards. (French-speaking Belgians dismissing Dutch as "useless" ? Or defending their bad Dutch by saying they never have the opportunity to use it? Heck, it's not useful to be able to understand the media of the other half of your own country? You can't "use" Dutch by driving to Antwerp for a Saturday afternoon or watching the VRT news some evening?) But that's their business, not mine.

From the English-speaker's point of view, at least mine...well, a Dane, for example, can use English in business or when traveling, and still has Danish to fall back on if he wants to become a journalist or write a novel (granted, he'd then need to get it translated if he wants an audience beyond Denmark). But if the rest of the world has just taken over English and started watering it down, what happens to _our_ fall-back language? Do Americans and British people a few generations from now lose the ability to understand our classic literature, or the ability to communicate with each other with subtlety and finesse because they've lost the vocabulary, because our generation decided it was politically correct to simplify our language so that (say) Germans and French people can use it with each other? This may not seem like a serious concern, but it could happen.

All of that said, I see Surel's point: it would be perfectly appropriate and reasonable for employees at Dutch town halls to be able to speak some English (and why not French and German too? Turkish in areas with large Turkish-immigrant populations?) to be able to communicate with people who aren't comfortable in Dutch. But a "second official language," as in Parliament starts passing Dutch and English versions of all laws? That to me is a step too far. Both because it endangers Dutch and the culture that comes with it - because at some point people will start asking, "why do we need Dutch?" - and because it really does seem to me like an inappropriate appropriation (sorry...) of my language.

And (back to Belgium) as for your point about "good old courtesy", the situation with the broken-down train is an example of how Belgian language policy can become absurd in certain situations. As I understand it, it's *illegal* for government employees in areas that are designated as Dutch-speaking (without the "facilities" for French that exist in certain municipalities) to communicate with the public in any language other than Dutch. The motivation for this, when the first language law was passed around 1920, was to take away the French-speaking upper classes' ability (in "Flemish areas") to discriminate against Flemings (in hiring for the better jobs and so on) by establishing the idea that Dutch was the language of those areas. Or something like that. To be fair, the same is true in French-speaking parts of the country too. And I wouldn't necessarily assume that the Flemish train-station employees were refusing to speak French as opposed to just not knowing French. And again, if the same situation happened in the other half of the country, would the French-speaking train-station employees be able to speak Dutch even if policy and the law permitted it?


----------



## brisavoine

Glodenox said:


> While I was not there when that train broke down, I'm 99% certain that person simply didn't know any French (I guess the company doesn't take into account that while the territory is Dutch-speaking, lots of French-speaking people would pass through there as well).


I've been trying to find the newspaper article reporting that incident, but I couldn't locate it. The incident happened about a year ago (or maybe 2 years ago, time flies!). From what I remember, there wasn't just one employee in that local train station, there were several employees who had been despatched there to deal with the people leaving the train. After these employees refused to talk in French, the clients started to rebel and create havoc, so finally some employees broke the rule and answered back in French. Since I can't find the article, I have no link to give you unfortunately, but you can't deny that such things happen in Belgium.

For example take the story of Nadine (and this time I have a link). Nadine is a 35 y/o policewoman who is a native French speaker but she also speaks Dutch fluently. Nadine lives in Flanders (maybe she's one of these Bruxellois who's moved to the suburbs of Brussels in Flanders). In June 2008 she took the train from Brussels to Aalst (a Flemish town located 24 km from Brussels), as she often does. On arriving in Aalst, her cell phone rang, it was her husband. While leaving the train and walking on the platform, she chitchatted with her husband on the phone in French. Suddenly a guy walked by her and shouted at her: "Hier moet je nederlands spreken !" (which means "Here you must speak Dutch!"). Nadine was of course shocked, and she replied angrily to the guy in Dutch.

Nadine also told the journalist that a colleague of her who is a native Dutch speaker was one day in a train, talking to a friend on her cell phone in French, and two passengers around her who couldn't stand the fact that she was speaking French made some remarks. The colleague was of course outraged.

Link: http://www.dhnet.be/infos/faits-divers/article/210159/hier-moet-je-nederlands-spreken.html


----------



## Penn's Woods

nenea_hartia said:


> But what about the Germans in the east of Belgium ? What do they think about the current issues between French-speaking and Dutch-speaking Belgians ? And another question: do they have some particular rights in the French-speaking Wallonia ?


Funny you should ask. In today's news:

http://www.lalibre.be/actu/election...ertz-la-belgique-sera-a-4-ou-ne-sera-pas.html

Strictly speaking, German-speaking Belgium isn't part of "French-speaking Wallonia". Wallonia is a "region" - an entity whose competences are in the area of economics, infrastructure.... For matters like education and culture, the German-speaking area is a "community" on the same level as the Flemish and French communities. But according to this article, the German-speaking area is seeking the powers of a "region," and its own representation in Parliament, which it doesn't have now because its population is too small (it votes with the French-speaking areas next to it.)


----------



## Penn's Woods

brisavoine said:


> I've been trying to find the newspaper article reporting that incident, but I couldn't locate it. The incident happened about a year ago (or maybe 2 years ago, time flies!). From what I remember, there wasn't just one employee in that local train station, there were several employees who had been despatched there to deal with the people leaving the train. After these employees refused to talk in French, the clients started to rebel and create havoc, so finally some employees broke the rule and answered back in French. Since I can't find the article, I have no link to give you unfortunately, but you can't deny that such things happen in Belgium.
> 
> For example take the story of Nadine (and this time I have a link). Nadine is a 35 y/o policewoman who is a native French speaker but she also speaks Dutch fluently. Nadine lives in Flanders (maybe she's one of these Bruxellois who's moved to the suburbs of Brussels in Flanders). In June 2008 she took the train from Brussels to Aalst (a Flemish town located 24 km from Brussels), as she often does. On arriving in Aalst, her cell phone rang, it was her husband. While leaving the train and walking on the platform, she chitchatted with her husband on the phone in French. Suddenly a guy walked by her and shouted at her: "Hier moet je nederlands spreken !" (which means "Here you must speak Dutch!"). Nadine was of course shocked, and she replied angrily to the guy in Dutch.
> 
> Nadine also told the journalist that a colleague of her who is a native Dutch speaker was one day in a train, talking to a friend on her cell phone in French, and two passengers around her who couldn't stand the fact that she was speaking French made some remarks. The colleague was of course outraged.
> 
> Link: http://www.dhnet.be/infos/faits-divers/article/210159/hier-moet-je-nederlands-spreken.html


Hmmm. I'd suggest not taking individual cases of rudeness and generalizing them to their entire communities. I'd suggest even more so that those of us who aren't Belgians refrain from doing so.


----------



## piotr71

MAG said:


> a native English speaker should find it easy to learn several European languages including French, Spanish, German and Dutch as they have similar general structure and grammar.
> .


I would rather put it in the other way round. German and Dutch are more connected to English and probably easier to learn by English speakers. From Romance languages English inherited significant part of its vocabulary, but grammar might be an issue for Germanic nations.
Never mind.
I am full of admiration for the level of English you write. In particular that you are a member of Slavic tribe, so could find not easy to use strict sentence building rules applied in English. I heard about only one gentleman who did it in such perfect way and must ask you, whether you are not his son. Son of Joseph Conrad.


----------



## Josh

brisavoine said:


> So for you the Francophone Belgians are like immigrants? Immigrants into their own country? Fascinating insight into the Flemish mind...
> 
> Like I said, that's so postnational, so post-Schengen... :|


The large majority of Arabic or Berber speaking people in Brussels have the Belgian nationality. So for you Belgians of Moroccan origin are not real Belgians? What if a majority of people of Belgian nationality in Brussels speak Arabic or Berber, would that still be any different than Belgian Francophones in Flanders?


----------



## Fuzzy Llama

Just out of curiosity: Do you have any statistics about the percentage of Belgian Francophones capable of using at least basic Dutch and vice versa?

Do you have compulsory French/Dutch in Flemish/Walloon schools?


----------



## brisavoine

Josh said:


> The large majority of Arabic or Berber speaking people in Brussels have the Belgian nationality.


And what's your source for that? Belgium does not conduct censuses anymore and doesn't collect information on languages and places of birth anymore. They only collect information on citizenship (statistics tell you how many people have Belgian, French, Moroccan, Congolese, etc. citizenship, but they don't tell you how many people are speakers of this or that language, or how many people where born in which country) So your statement is impossible to prove.

Common knowledge is the people who get the Belgian citizenship are the children of immigrants, and the children of immigrants living in Brussels integrate in the French-speaking community (i.e. they adopt French as their language). 3rd generation immigrants usually don't speak the native language of their grandparents anymore.


----------



## Thermo

brisavoine said:


> I've been trying to find the newspaper article reporting that incident, but I couldn't locate it. The incident happened about a year ago (or maybe 2 years ago, time flies!). From what I remember, there wasn't just one employee in that local train station, there were several employees who had been despatched there to deal with the people leaving the train. After these employees refused to talk in French, the clients started to rebel and create havoc, so finally some employees broke the rule and answered back in French. Since I can't find the article, I have no link to give you unfortunately, but you can't deny that such things happen in Belgium.
> 
> For example take the story of Nadine (and this time I have a link). Nadine is a 35 y/o policewoman who is a native French speaker but she also speaks Dutch fluently. Nadine lives in Flanders (maybe she's one of these Bruxellois who's moved to the suburbs of Brussels in Flanders). In June 2008 she took the train from Brussels to Aalst (a Flemish town located 24 km from Brussels), as she often does. On arriving in Aalst, her cell phone rang, it was her husband. While leaving the train and walking on the platform, she chitchatted with her husband on the phone in French. Suddenly a guy walked by her and shouted at her: "Hier moet je nederlands spreken !" (which means "Here you must speak Dutch!"). Nadine was of course shocked, and she replied angrily to the guy in Dutch.
> 
> Nadine also told the journalist that a colleague of her who is a native Dutch speaker was one day in a train, talking to a friend on her cell phone in French, and two passengers around her who couldn't stand the fact that she was speaking French made some remarks. The colleague was of course outraged.
> 
> Link: http://www.dhnet.be/infos/faits-divers/article/210159/hier-moet-je-nederlands-spreken.html


Why are you always digging up these kind of stories like it's common practice in Flanders? These are exeptions, believe me (if they are even true). You live in France, and you get all your "information" by the Francophone media, I live in Flanders so I think I'm better placed to really know the reality in Flanders today.

I once was in the hospital in Blankenberge (Flemish coast). I saw a group of Walloon tourists who were helped in perfect French by the Flemish staff. Even in Gasthuisberg, the hospital of Leuven, French-speaking patients are welcomed and treated in their own language. I don't see this happen for Flemish patients in hospitals in Liège or Charleroi!

There are also stories of Flemish people in Brussels hospitals, confronted with staff who don't speak a single word of Dutch. In your "bilingual" Brussels!

You always want to give the impression that the Flemish people are 'the bad ones' and that the Francophones are the 'poor victimes'. The reality is different, véry different.

The Francophone media sometimes makes up these anti-Flemish stories. 
A recent example: last year the Francophone newspaper "La Dernière Heure" came up with this cover: "_Girl got stabbed 38 times for speaking French in Flanders_!". A few weeks later it was clear the whole story was *FAKE*. This is the kind of "media" we deal with in francophone Belgium.

The cover:


----------



## Penn's Woods

Thermo said:


> In a way, yes, they are immigrants in Flanders. Just like Flemish people in Wallonia are.
> Just like someone from Texas needs to accept the laws of California if he decides to live in California.
> 
> Even *internal *borders need to be respected *to keep the peace*. Belgium is a *federal state*, so the 'states' Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels act a bit as 'semi-countries' within Belgium. Clearly, you don't understand *federal *logic.
> 
> I don't think Québec would be happy if Ontario systematically claimed Québec territory, don't you think?


On the other hand, there are to this day two English-speaking (not bilingual but English-speaking) universities in the heart of Montreal. The national English-language media (CBC, CTV...) are present in Quebec (as Radio-Canada is in English Canada). There is an English-language daily newspaper in Montreal (and a French one in Ottawa). The Quebec law on commercial signage (which has since been found unconstitutional) was not applicable in municipalities where a majority of the population spoke English. The Canadian Federal government functions bilingually (to the extent possible) everywhere in the country. English-speaking Canadians have a right to have their children educated in English in Quebec (and French-speaking Canadians in English Canada, where there are enough of them). A "wonen in eigen streek" decree is unthinkable in Quebec. The comparison between Flemish and Quebec policies really doesn't go all that far, at least when in comes to respect for individual rights. I hate to say it....


----------



## nenea_hartia

Penn's Woods said:


> Funny you should ask. In today's news:
> 
> http://www.lalibre.be/actu/election...ertz-la-belgique-sera-a-4-ou-ne-sera-pas.html
> 
> Strictly speaking, German-speaking Belgium isn't part of "French-speaking Wallonia". Wallonia is a "region" - an entity whose competences are in the area of economics, infrastructure.... For matters like education and culture, the German-speaking area is a "community" on the same level as the Flemish and French communities. But according to this article, the German-speaking area is seeking the powers of a "region," and its own representation in Parliament, which it doesn't have now because its population is too small (it votes with the French-speaking areas next to it.)


"La Belgique sera à 4 ou ne sera pas". Mr.Lambertz said a lot in a simple sentence. But do they have any chance to make a fourth region only for the German-speaking Belgians? I mean, doesn't this require to modify the Belgian Constitution?

Anyway, looking at the map posted by Thermo, I can't stop thinking of an old saying: "A picture is worth a thousand words". It's fascinating how Belgium looks like it's splitted in two equal parts following an imaginary mirror line. Both Flanders and Wallonia even have their own enclaves/exclaves and the only area which could generate some "troubles" seems to be exactly Brussels.


----------



## Thermo

Fuzzy Llama said:


> Just out of curiosity: Do you have any statistics about the percentage of Belgian Francophones capable of using at least basic Dutch and vice versa?
> 
> Do you have compulsory French/Dutch in Flemish/Walloon schools?


Very good question.

In Flemish schools, French is compulsory as second language. Children from 10 years old get French lessons until they're 18 years old.

In Francophone Belgium, Dutch is NOT compulsory . They can choose whether they learn Dutch or not. Result: many Walloons choose English.


Need I say more?


----------



## PLH

*I'm afraid this topic has little to do with border crossings.*


----------



## brisavoine

Fuzzy Llama said:


> Just out of curiosity: Do you have any statistics about the percentage of Belgian Francophones capable of using at least basic Dutch and vice versa?


As I explained, the Belgian statistical office does not collect information on languages (the last linguistic census was in 1947). They don't collect information on language abilities either.

In Brussels, however, there is a source of information for language use: the Taalbarometer 2005. It's not official statistics from the Belgian statistical office, it's only a survey by non-state organisations (Huis van het Nederlands and Brussels Information, Documentation and Research Centre). In 2005, they surveyed 2,500 people in Brussels whose age was between 18 and 70.

28.3% of the people surveyed said that they spoke good to excellent Dutch (95.5% said that they spoke good to excellent French). Among these 28.3% people, 45.1% are native Dutch speakers. In other words, if you do the math, among the non-native Dutch speakers (i.e. the Francophones and the immigrants without French or Dutch as a native tongue), 17.8% said they can speak good to excellent Dutch. The way the questions were asked, it is not possible to give a precise figure for the Belgian Francophones only.

Among the native Dutch speakers (again, we're talking only about people living in Brussels here), more than 90% speak good to excellent French (I can't give a more precise figure due to the way they asked the questions).


----------



## Glodenox

Then I'll come with another anecdote of mine, just to show that all this goes in both ways:
The situation isn't 100% the same, since it's actually much worse than your story...

Some friends of mine went to play some card games in a local cafe. That has been a habit of us for at least 6 years. I wasn't there that day, sadly/luckily enough. We knew the cafe switched owners a couple of weeks ago, but assumed not too much changed with that. Both those friends live in Vilvoorde, which is located in Flanders (but is relatively close to Brussels). After getting their drinks, the people around them started annoying them. They disrupted their game, started talking against them in French. Then they went on interrupting anything they were trying to say to each other. Apparently this went on for a couple of minutes, they asked to stop doing that, but by then already about 7 people were standing around their table, making it as hard as possible to enjoy the game and the drinks.

Once they started taking their cards and becoming even more annoying, they decided to leave. How sad is it that you get bullied out of a cafe in your own city? A cafe in which you've spent so many years, even had French-speaking people in there and shared drinks with them? I simply can't grasp that.

Note that this only happened 2 weeks ago. The saddest part is that this isn't just an individual, but a group of people teaming up against them. You'd start to get stressed out about language for less! (not that I condone what that yelling person did though - yelling and being annoying isn't the answer)

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## Penn's Woods

nenea_hartia said:


> "La Belgique sera à 4 ou ne sera pas". Mr.Lambertz said a lot in a simple sentence. But do they have any chance to make a fourth region only for the German-speaking Belgians? I mean, doesn't this require to modify the Belgian Constitution?
> 
> Anyway, looking at the map posted by Thermo, I can't stop thinking of an old saying: "A picture is worth a thousand words". It's fascinating how Belgium looks like it's splitted in two equal parts following an imaginary mirror line. Both Flanders and Wallonia even have their own enclaves/exclaves and the only area which could generate some "troubles" seems to be exactly Brussels.


Yes, they're talking about modifying the constitution. They can only change provisions of the constitution that the previous parliament said could be changed. So (having now paid attention to a couple of rounds of Belgian elections) apparently it's normal that when parliament is dissolved, the last thing the outgoing government does is approve a list of things that are on the table for the next parliament to revise.


----------



## Obidos

Does anybody know here with how many countries has Spain boder crossing? (land, not maritime)


----------



## Josh

brisavoine said:


> And what's your source for that? Belgium does not conduct censuses anymore and doesn't collect information on languages and places of birth anymore. They only collect information on citizenship (statistics tell you how many people have Belgian, French, Moroccan, Congolese, etc. citizenship, but they don't tell you how many people are speakers of this or that language, or how many people where born in which country) So your statement is impossible to prove.
> 
> Common knowledge is the people who get the Belgian citizenship are the children of immigrants, and the children of immigrants living in Brussels integrate in the French-speaking community (i.e. they adopt French as their language). 3rd generation immigrants usually don't speak the native language of their grandparents anymore.


Lol, clearly you don't know the situation in Brussels because children or grandchildren of (North African) immigrants all still speak Arabic or Berber with their family. It might be different in France, but in Brussels Arabic or Berber is the language of daily life in certain neighbourhoods.


----------



## brisavoine

Obidos said:


> Does anybody know here with how many countries has Spain boder crossing? (land, not maritime)


Four: France, Andorra, Portugal, Morocco.


----------



## Penn's Woods

PLH said:


> *I'm afraid this topic has little to do with border crossings.*


I'm fairly new here. Is there a place we should take it? It was border-related (if not necessarily border-*crossing*-related) when it started....


----------



## Obidos

brisavoine said:


> Four: France, Andorra, Portugal, Morocco.


You missed one...


----------



## Josh

Obidos said:


> You missed one...


UK


----------



## Obidos

:yes:


----------



## Penn's Woods

Obidos said:


> You missed one...


Okay, I'll bite.

Oh. I see Josh's post. Never mind....


----------



## Obidos

Gibraltar...


----------



## Penn's Woods

Obidos said:


> Gibraltar...


Right. How'd I miss that?!


----------



## brisavoine

Josh said:


> Lol, clearly you don't know the situation in Brussels because children or grandchildren of (North African) immigrants all still speak Arabic or Berber with their family. It might be different in France, but in Brussels Arabic or Berber is the language of daily life in certain neighbourhoods.


Really?

In 2005, according to official statistics, there were 265,211 foreigners (people with non-Belgian citizenship) in Brussels, i.e. 26.3% of all the people living in Brussels. Among these, 40,192 were French citizens and 5,567 were Dutch citizens. So if you exclude the French and the Dutch, that's 21.8% of the people living in Brussels who were foreigners other than French and Dutch. If you also exclude the other native francophone foreigners (French-speaking Swiss, Canadians, etc.), then about 21.5% of the people living in Brussels were foreigners who were neither native French speakers nor native Dutch speakers. Among these, 44,849 were citizens from the Maghreb, i.e. 4.5% of the total population living in Brussels (just to keep things in perspective!).

Now, in the Taalbarometer 2005, 16.3% of people reported that the language they spoke inside their house was neither French nor Dutch, and 11.3% reported that they spoke both French and a language other than Dutch in their house.

So on the one hand, we have 21.5% of people who are foreigners without French and Dutch as a native language, and on the other hand we have only 27.6% of people who speak a language other than French and Dutch in their houses. This would seem to indicate that 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants, who usually all have Belgian citizenship, have a clear tendency to abandon the language of their parents or grandparents, otherwise you would have much more than 27.6% of people speaking a language other than French and Dutch in their houses.

Last but not least, in the Taalbarometer 2000 the number of people who reported that they could speak good to excellent Arabic was 10.0%, whereas in the Taalbarometer 2005 the number of people who reported that they could speak good to excellent Arabic dropped to 6.4%. Of course the sample in the survey is a bit small (only 2,500 people), so minority languages might not be properly accounted for, but still it seems to contradict your assertion that the children of Arabic immigrants continue to speak Arabic.

You can find the results of the Taalbarometer 2005 here: http://www.brusselsstudies.be/PDF/EN_51_BruS13EN.pdf


----------



## MAG

Guys - maybe it's time to give it a rest?

To diffuse the situation let me take you away from Belgium towards the real centre of Europe, Poland. 
If you like it rough () you can cross the CZ/PL border in the mountains, so long as you have a decent 4x4. 
The border is open and on a sunny day the scenery is breathtaking. 
Here is a sample, unfortunately the weather was c**p:









Czantoria mountain summit (994 m) and the border road, which is out of bounds to most traffic









Border post - view from Poland









Border post - view from the Czech Rep

As you can see, the grass is always greener on the other side of the border.



However, if you are short of money (like me) and are unable to fork out €40k on a 4x4, you can take the chair lift and experience the thrill of gliding through the air for ~15 min while the lift takes you close to the mountain peak. After that you have to go up another 2 km to get to the summit:









Chair lift to Czantoria mountain


-------------------

If you are ever in the Wisła/Ustroń area of Poland I highly recommend you go up Czantoria.
I guarantee you won't regret it.


.


----------



## AlexisMD

thx , nice post


----------



## Penn's Woods

Valdepasillano said:


> It is curious that we think the same about Gibraltar. That rock seems to be more important to the U.K. than cities like Belfast. Things must stay the same. Gibraltar is British and North African territories (Plazas de soberanía) are Spanish


I'm wondering whether Spain having bits and pieces of territory on the African side of the Straits is more valuable than it looks: If a tiny rock comes with fishing rights for a strip of sea....


----------



## Cicerón

The new A-75 from Verín (Galicia, Spain) to the Portuguese border. Sorry, another European border 

All these pictures have been posted by Rave at Urbanity.es.

A sing saying "Chaves (P)" instead of just "Portugal".


>


Sign located in the Spanish side, signing an exit in the Portuguese side.


>


Looking to Portugal:


>


Looking to Spain:


>


To see the rest of the pictures, click here.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^
Does that say "N103.5"?!

And if someone who has nothing better to do wants to explain the Spanish route-numbering system, including color-coding (on the appropriate thread, of course)....(I understand the N103.5 is in Portugal.)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's N103-5. Probably the 5th spur of N103 highway.


----------



## Cicerón

Yes, N 103-5. That's how it's called. About the Spanish numbering system, I will explain it later in the Spanish highways thread.


----------



## bogdymol

brisavoine said:


> Construction of the international bridge over the Oyapock River between France and Brazil is now in full swing. The bridge should be completed before the end of this year. Here are some pictures taken last March. *It will be the southernmost land border crossing of the European Union and the Schengen Area.*


I don't think that French Guiana is considered as part of the Schengen Area.




Malagueño84 said:


> The existing border in Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera is a blue rope.
> Furthermore, until the 30s Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera was an island, but an earthquake he did unite the African continent.


How do they keep people on one side or other and controll them not to pass the border?


----------



## DanielFigFoz

^^ With guns, but only a dozen people live on Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera anyway, its not like Mellila or Ceuta.


----------



## brisavoine

Gareth said:


> Not really. It's more about the wishes of the people of Gibraltar to remain separate from Spain. The UK finds it hard to even pretend to be arsed about the place.


For once, I agree. There's a difference between a populated place that whishes to remain connected to another country, and a barren rock with no permanent population that is kept only to spite the neighboring country.


----------



## desertpunk

Malagueño84 said:


> The existing border in Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera is a blue rope.
> Furthermore, until the 30s Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera was an island, but an earthquake he did unite the African continent.


Contrast with this border beach south of San Diego:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Apples and oranges. The San Diego border separates large populations, that blue rope... nothing. Just a rock which happens to be a part of Spain without any connections to the Spanish mainland.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

brisavoine said:


> For once, I agree. There's a difference between a populated place that whishes to remain connected to another country, and a barren rock with no permanent population that is kept only to spite the neighboring country.


To be honest, most British people do not know that the overseas territories even exist, there is no reference to them in everyday media or anything really. (Perhaps with the exception of Gibraltar and Picatarin Island, due to the paedophilia cases).


----------



## Polonus

Look at the sign of speed limits:
what is the difference between those two 2x1 roads (limits: 90 and 100) under the symbol of built up area?


----------



## Matchut

delete


----------



## JuanPaulo

Matchut said:


> The bottom picture has a shoulder, and the top picture doesn't. It's hard to see, but it's there.


 :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I was on N-240 2 years ago south of Andorra. That was such a 100 km/h road with small shoulders. 100 was a very pleasant speed 

I gotta say many Spanish N-roads are really built for speed and driving comfort. Many of those N-roads would've been 80 km/h roads in other countries with a much less optimal alignment.


----------



## garcia.calavera

here's the crossing between Romania and Bulgaria , in the Dobrogea Region (old border)


----------



## Cicerón

Polonus said:


> Look at the sign of speed limits:
> what is the difference between those two 2x1 roads (limits: 90 and 100) under the symbol of built up area?





Matchut said:


> The bottom picture has a shoulder, and the top picture doesn't. It's hard to see, but it's there.


Yep, that's the difference. This is an old sign showing the speed limits (taken from ChrisZwolle's Flickr  ):



>


As you can see, the third one has a "Vía Rápida" sign. These kind of roads are normal roads with a limited access and no intersections at the same level. They were signed with this symbol:









These kind of roads don't exist anymore (although there are still some signs left), they are now called "vía para automóviles", and they use this sign:


----------



## bogdymol

^^ So they are express roads.


----------



## paF4uko

garcia.calavera said:


> here's the crossing between Romania and Bulgaria , in the Dobrogea Region (old border)


Is this Vama Veche - Durankulak?


----------



## Cicerón

bogdymol said:


> ^^ So they are express roads.


The two signs I posted yes, the road-with-shoulder symbol just represents a road with a shoulder.


----------



## redstone

Anyone got photos of this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_(Western_Sahara)


----------



## mexico15

why boring? well you guys in Europe just have a sign that welcomes you to the country, and here in Mexico, with the American border and the Guatemala one, is like a show, i mean you can see a lot of cultures in a place, and the border crossings are so huge, quiero ir a la frontera  let me search some picture guys


----------



## LMB

brisavoine said:


> Entering la belle France... (that's how borders should always look )


No, no, it's missing the "End of driving culture" sign. :lol:


----------



## brisavoine

redstone said:


> Anyone got photos of this?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_(Western_Sahara)


I took pictures of the border of Western Sahara last year. Note that you really need to know what to look for, because this border is not a border anymore. It's only a historical border. Today it's Moroccan territory on both sides of the border, and what's more it doesn't even correspond to a provincial or regional border (i.e. both sides of the old border is within the same Moroccan province).

Here are the pictures. The border of the Western Sahara is where the little pyramids stand, but as I said it is neither a political nor even a domestic administrative border today, so there is absolutely no sign telling you you're entering Western Sahara.



















The endless desert. Maximum speed allowed 100 km/h, but in that part of Morocco there aren't police speed radars anymore.


----------



## redstone

Are the wall and forts still there? What does it look like?


----------



## PLH

Nobody wants Schengen borders? No problem:

*PL/RUS Grzechotki/Mamonovo*

source: http://www.berlinka.pcp.pl/

This is what is left from the old Reichsautobahn on the Russian side 



















Still closed:




































Approaching the border from the Polish side:



los77 said:


> Pierwsza bramownica.
> 
> 
> Druga bramownica (tuż przed szlabanami)
> 
> 
> 
> Tutaj drobna dygresja.
> 
> Robiąc to zdjęcie stanąłem samochodem na środkowym pasie trzypasmowej jezdni w stronę przejścia. Po pewnym czasie prawy szlaban zaczął się otwierać i zamykać zachęcając do wjazdu. Nie mając jednak pewności czy dałbym radę stamtąd wyjechać bez kupna wizy , postanowiłem skorzystać z zawrotki widocznej po lewej stronie zdjęcia. Jednym słowem ....... wydygałem:cheers:
> 
> Widok z przejścia w stronę Polski
> 
> 
> Widok z przejścia w stronę Rosji (zwraca uwagę znak końca eski, czyżby w planach miała być oznaczona jako eska do samego przejścia ?)




Autobahn on Polish side:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Are they gonna open the new Grzechotki border crossing ever? So far it's the biggest _Grand Travaux Inutile_ in Poland.


----------



## Karasek

paF4uko said:


> ^^ Are there frequent border controls?


Currently, yes. The car theft on the Polish-German border more than trippled in some places along the border after Schengen was implemented. There are frequent controls now by German authorities, which angers Poles and Czechs quite a lot. 
Just two days ago the German police more or less shut down the A4 (Autobahn from Dresden/D to Wroclaw/PL) at night. They controled ~1900 cars and found more than 100 stolen cars or parts of cars.


----------



## abdeka

brisavoine said:


> I took pictures of the border of Western Sahara last year. Note that you really need to know what to look for, because this border is not a border anymore. It's only a historical border. *Today it's Moroccan territory* on both sides of the border, and what's more it doesn't even correspond to a provincial or regional border (i.e. both sides of the old border is within the same Moroccan province).
> 
> Here are the pictures. The border of the Western Sahara is where the little pyramids stand, but as I said it is neither a political nor even a domestic administrative border today, so there is absolutely no sign telling you you're entering Western Sahara.


Western Sahara is not yet a moroccan territory. This territory is claimed by morocco since his decolonization by Spain. Most maps clearly show the separation between Morocco and Western Sahara.


----------



## PLH

Karasek said:


> down the A4 (Autobahn from Dresden/D to Wroclaw/PL) at night. They controled ~1900 cars and found more than 100 stolen cars or parts of cars.


Source please.




ChrisZwolle said:


> Are they gonna open the new Grzechotki border crossing ever? So far it's the biggest _Grand Travaux Inutile_ in Poland.


It's the Russian side that is causing problems, our part is ready.

I found this, from 09/06/2010

http://www.rosgranitsa.ru/node/1952



> The representatives of Kaliningrad Oblast Kaliningrad customs and logistics customs office told the audience about the completion of the MAPP Mamonovo-2, as well as designated time interval required for the preparation of documents to enter the checkpoint operation.
> 
> Briot head KTU Rosgranitsy Alexander Koshlin informed the meeting about the procedure of the Interdepartmental Commission for acceptance MAPP Mamonovo-2, as well as the timing of the publication Rosgranitsey order opening the checkpoint.
> 
> In aiming the coordination and operational issues associated with the opening Mamonovo MAPP-2, Alexander Koshlin proposed to establish a working group comprising representatives of the Government of the Kaliningrad region, Kaliningrad Regional Customs, KTU Rosgranitsy and Kaliningrad logistics customs post. The meeting supported the initiative.


----------



## brisavoine

abdeka said:


> Western Sahara is not yet a moroccan territory.


On the ground, Western Sahara is clearly Moroccan territory. There are not even border checks as I said, not even a sign telling you you're entering Western Sahara. And people are exactly the same on both sides of the border, people speak the Saharaoui dialect on both sides of the border. Besides, Morocco is developing the coast rapidly, and Dakhla is soon going to become a major Moroccan resort, on par with Agadir.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Western Sahara is de-facto part of Morocco, since it is controlled by Morocco and there are no physical borders. Most statistical maps (of any kind) usually show Western Sahara as "no data". Only 500,000 people live there though, of which Laâyoune has almost 200,000 of them.


----------



## Verso

Border crossing between China and Kazakhstan:









_http://www.panoramio.com/photo/609718_









_http://www.panoramio.com/photo/5541375_









_http://www.panoramio.com/photo/11137180_









_http://www.panoramio.com/photo/6517597_









_http://www.panoramio.com/photo/6517712_









_http://www.panoramio.com/photo/6517321_


----------



## eskandarany

if you guys are looking for 'threatening' borders and crossings, check out the infamous rafah crossing (usually closed of course, very occasionally partially open)

































after the famous 'brief opening' where the border was breached due to the long siege of 1-2 million people...








families separated for decades by the wall were reunited, and the palestinians enjoyed a couple of days shopping in egyptian rafah and elarish..

then the brand new infamous 'wall-of-shame' separating egypt and gaza, (europe and the us oversaw the building of this wall btw). presumably the 'filling in' is where it had been broken-through a couple of years back. accompanying no-man's-land forms the southern side of the besieged gaza's borders.

































other egyptian crossings:
Taba








Salloum


----------



## CNGL

That border crossing between China and Kazakhstan is in Huoerguosi, right?


----------



## Matchut

delete


----------



## piotr71

Belgium-Germany international border crossing near Aachen Lichtenbusch:

*http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=59414735&postcount=463*


----------



## diablo234

Canusa Street or Rue Canusa in Beebe Plain, Vermont/Quebec (The middle of the road is the U.S.-Canadian Border). Essentially residents on the US side of the street have to report to their customs if traveling south, and to the Canadian customs if traveling elsewhere in Beebe.

Derby Lane, Vermont & Stanstead, Quebec have several streets that cross the border without any customs checks and several apartments, houses and the library are split down the middle between the two countries.


----------



## bogdymol

I haven't seend any movie from any border crossing in this topic, so I tought, why shouldn't I make one since I have to make a cross-border trip?

Border crossing at Nădlac (RO) - Nagylak (HU), yesterday:






I have video from the returning trip (by night), but it will take a while to process and upload it.


----------



## eucitizen

I noticed that hungarians ask to open the trunk somehow. And after the border there was the hungarian customcontrolling what?alcohol and cigarettes?


----------



## bogdymol

ChrisZwolle said:


> N336, the Netherlands: Speed limit= 60 km/h


How do you drive on this road? In the middle lane, and if a car approaches you go with half of the car on that tiny lane on the right?




Palance said:


> It can be worse on the Dutch-German border: Here the max. speed is 10 km/h...


Who obeys that speed limit? I wouldn't.


----------



## Palance

I didn't have to since I have crossed this border once but from Germany to the Netherlands.


----------



## g.spinoza

Italy - San Marino main border crossing in the town of Dogana (which means "customs"):










The writing on the arch says: "Welcome to the ancient land of liberty"

And this is a Sammarinese road sign:










"Historic centre and Mount Titano, World Heritage Site"


----------



## Verso

^^ (R.S.M.) - funny that they have dots after letters.


----------



## Alex Trst

Verso said:


> ^^ (R.S.M.) - funny that they have dots after letters.


Even funnier that they are not part of Italy and we in Trieste are. hno: :bash:


----------



## g.spinoza

Alex Trst said:


> Even funnier that they are not part of Italy and we in Trieste are. hno: :bash:


Ah, strange laws of geopolitics... I'm not surprised that Trieste is in Italy... I'm more surprised that Suedtirol is


----------



## Alqaszar

I'm surprised that I live in Germany, though Napoleon had us already liberated from the Prussians back in 1806. But times change, and today the Rhineland is part of Germany. I guess we have just to go with it.


----------



## Verso

Alex Trst said:


> Even funnier that they are not part of Italy and we in Trieste are. hno: :bash:


I would understand, if you were a Slovene, but you seem to be a Bosnian according to your posts?


----------



## Alex Trst

Verso said:


> I would understand, if you were a Slovene, but you seem to be a Bosnian according to your posts?


No, I'm Italian, but I'm an Italian from a territory formerly part of Austria-Hungary (and this is one of the reasons I love Bosnia, in particular, but also Slovenia, Croatia, Austria, Slovakia, Hungary, Venetia, etc.), although now Italy is here...
However you may find many Italian-speaking people from Trieste (among original inhabitants, not among the ones who came from proper Italy) who think being part of Italy is wrong for us, because of our traditions, our history, our being mixed with other peoples (especially Slovenes), our special geographic location, our economic aims.

Here's a picture from 1952, when Trieste was part of the Free Territory of Trieste (a former member state of the OEEC) and this was the border crossing between the FTT and Italy, seen from the Italian side. It was located between Monfalcone and S.Giovanni di Duino (Štivan).


----------



## Verso

^^ Very interesting. I can't say I don't understand you, because inhabitants of San Marino (Sammarinese) are IMO more or less Italians too, yet they are independent. Do you think Trieste would secede from Italy, if there was a referendum about it? Anyway, independent Trieste within the borders of the former Free Territory of Trieste would mean Slovenia without sea.  (but I doubt the current Slovenian part of it would want to secede from Slovenia)


----------



## g.spinoza

Alex Trst said:


> However you may find many Italian-speaking people from Trieste (among original inhabitants, not among the ones who came from proper Italy) who think being part of Italy is wrong for us, because of our traditions, our history, our being mixed with other peoples (especially Slovenes), our special geographic location, our economic aims.


It seems quite odd to me, since AFAIK the unification with Italy was welcomed by the vast majority of the population...


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> It seems quite odd to me, since AFAIK the unification with Italy was welcomed by the vast majority of the population...


Perhaps by the vast majority of Italians, but not by Slovenes (and probably others) who constituted a large part of the population. Perhaps Trieste should really have remained independent (although as I've said, it would mean Slovenia without sea).

Another photo of the border between Trieste and Italy:









_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory_of_Trieste_


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> Perhaps by the vast majority of Italians, but not by Slovenes (and probably others)


So true.



> who constituted a large part of the population.


Less true. I mean, large but non so large. The entire Free State of Trieste (which was composed also by a part of Istria down to Cittanova), was inhabited by 370k people, of which 260k were italians. In Trieste city the ratio was even higher.



> Perhaps Trieste should really have remained independent (although as I've said, it would mean Slovenia without sea).


Dunno. But the secession of Trieste has never been an issue here in Italy, for the past sixty years.


----------



## Alex Trst

Verso said:


> Do you think Trieste would secede from Italy, if there was a referendum about it? Anyway, independent Trieste within the borders of the former Free Territory of Trieste would mean Slovenia without sea. (but I doubt the current Slovenian part of it would want to secede from Slovenia)


Unfortunately, no, beacuse there are far too many people from proper Italy who now live here, and they would be surely against, plus such a referendum wouldn't be even considered legal and an offence by authorities, regardless of what local people think.
Don't worry, even if the case, we wouldn't ask for Slovenian Littoral. 



g.spinoza said:


> It seems quite odd to me, since AFAIK the unification with Italy was welcomed by the vast majority of the population...


There would be so much to say about it, but I only say that in Italy there's an "official" history and that that is a belief that you cannot even try to discuss because it's a one way of thinking, but I was born here and I know my people and what they think and say within their home walls. I talk to them (relatives, friends, etc.) everyday and the result is simple and clear.


----------



## g.spinoza

Alex Trst said:


> There would be so much to say about it, but I only say that in Italy there's an "official" history and that that is a belief that you cannot even try to discuss because it's a one way of thinking, but I was born here and I know my people and what they think and say within their home walls. I talk to them (relatives, friends, etc.) everyday and the result is simple and clear.


I take your word for it, since I never been to Trieste (actually once, but passing while traveling to Pola). I must admit, though, these kind of arguments reminds me too much of Lega Nord and Padania, even if I recognise the motives here are completely different.
Probably you're right about the official history and all, but if that means that we must never discuss the unity of Italy, I am ok with that.

I'm sorry if I seem rude, I don't mean to... that's just my two cents.


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> Dunno. But the secession of Trieste has never been an issue here in Italy, for the past sixty years.


Italy is a unified country anyway. But how come this unification left out San Marino? (I understand it left out the Vatican City) Is it because the Sammarinese are too proud of being the oldest recorded sovereign state and constitutional republic in the world to join Italy?


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> Italy is a unified country anyway. But home come this unification left out San Marino? (I understand it left out the Vatican City) Is it because the Sammarinese are too proud of being the oldest recorded sovereign state and constitutional republic in the world to join Italy?


The "official" history, as Alex_Trst would say, records that San Marino helped and gave shelter to Garibaldi and the Thousand during their journey through Italy fighting the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies and the Papal States, so in return King of Piedmont granted them independence from the soon-to-be Italian state.

It seems a bit simplistic to me, though, but I don't know which the "real" motives could have been.


----------



## Verso

While we're at it (although it's a regional border nowadays), this is the fomer border between Trieste and Italy today. It's the border between the Province of Trieste and the Province of Gorizia (nice cut in the back):










Trivia: the border runs along one of the shortest rivers in the world - Timavo, just 2 km.


----------



## SpicyMcHaggis

Verso...

Sorry to go all offtopic on you now, but do you know when google streetview will be available in Slovenia? I


----------



## Verso

SpicyMcHaggis said:


> Verso...
> 
> Sorry to go all offtopic on you now, but do you know when google streetview will be available in Slovenia? I


Other than two border crossings with Italy, I haven't heard anything about it. Now I see they're already driving in Croatia, Hungary and Austria. I don't know why they decided to cover all Slovenia's neighbors, but not Slovenia itself. Hopefully soon.


----------



## Gag Halfrunt

Verso said:


> Italy is a unified country anyway. But how come this unification left out San Marino? (I understand it left out the Vatican City) Is it because the Sammarinese are too proud of being the oldest recorded sovereign state and constitutional republic in the world to join Italy?


The Vatican City State was created by the Lateran Treaty in 1929, under which Italy recognised the sovereignty of the Holy See over the Vatican area and the Pope accepted financial compensation for the loss of the Papal States.

The Kingdom of Italy had taken control of the last remans of the Papal States in 1870, and from then until the Lateran Treaty the Popes refused to recognise Italian sovereignty over their former territority.


----------



## nenea_hartia

*Romanian/Hungarian border crossing of Nădlac/Nagylak*

RO - Nădlac:










HU - Nagylak:










*Hungarian/Slovakian border of Rajka/Čunovo:*


















*Holland/UK border crossing by ferryboat at Hoek van Holland/Harwich*

NL - Hoek van Holland:


























UK - Harwich (sorry, not exactly the border crossing):










*UK/France border crossing by Eurotunnel Shuttle at Folkestone/Calais*

UK terminal of Folkestone:


















French terminal of Calais/Coquelles:


































*French/Belgian border crossing of Crespin/Hensies:*


----------



## bogdymol

Thank you for the pictures nenea_hartia!



nenea_hartia said:


>


Dacia Logan in UK?


----------



## SpicyMcHaggis

Its obviously French..


----------



## nenea_hartia

SpicyMcHaggis said:


> Its obviously French..


Indeed.



bogdymol said:


> Thank you for the pictures nenea_hartia!


Your welcome, and it will be updated. These are some pics taken during my Eurotrip made this month from Romania to the UK. I intend to start a new topic about it in Travelogue, in the Romanian section of SCC.


----------



## nenea_hartia

*French/Belgian border crossing of Ghyvelde/Adinkerke, near Dunkerque:*










*French/Luxembourgish border crossing near Dudelange:*

On the French side:


















On the Luxembourgish side:










*Luxembourgish/German border crossing of Wasserbillig/Mesenich:*

On the Luxembourgish side:


















On the German side:










*German/Austrian border crossing of Suben, near Passau:*


----------



## kanterberg

*Norwegian – Swedish (EU) border at the Morokulien crossing on road 2/road 61)*

Here are a few pictures from the Norwegian-Swedish border. This is where the Norwegian road 2 (Riksvei 2) and the Swedish road 61 (Riksväg 61) meet. The AADT across this border is 6500 vehicles per day. 


The border itself. Notice how the central divider line changes colour from yellow (Norway) to white (Sweden). Oddly enough, the sign “Riksgrense Sverige” (National border Sweden) is written in Norwegian but on a Swedish sign with the Swedish Tratex font. 


No speed limit information sign at the border, only county and municipality information like it was a regional border. No sign that you are entering the EU. 


Approaching the custums station. Norway is a non-EU Schengen member (along with Switzerland and Iceland). The customs station is located on the Swedish side. 


The customs line. Schengen did not change things much at this border. The Nordic Passport Union has been in effect since 1958, allowing all citiziens of Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland and Iceland to travel and reside in other Nordic countries without a passport or residence permit.

*Opposite direction*


Before 1967 the central divider line was yellow in Sweden aswell. At that time things we're a little more complicated at this border since Sweden had left-hand traffic back then. 


When you see a car without headlights on during the day, it is most likely imported. Usually it is impossible to turn the lights off on a car bought in Sweden or Norway.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Are there actually border controls between Sweden and Norway or can you just drive through?


----------



## nenea_hartia

ChrisZwolle said:


> Are there actually border controls between Sweden and Norway or can you just drive through?


Last year I made a long trip, driving from Romania through Denmark and Sweden up to Nordkapp in Norway, and then back to Romania, this time through Finland and the Baltic states. There were no border controls between Sweden and Norway, nor between Norway and Finland, only some road signs pointing somewhere outside the road, informing drivers that if they have goods to declare there is a customs checkpoint there.


----------



## Penn's Woods

kanterberg said:


> *Norwegian – Swedish (EU) border at the Morokulien crossing on road 2/road 61)*
> 
> Here are a few pictures from the Norwegian-Swedish border. This is where the Norwegian road 2 (Riksvei 2) and the Swedish road 61 (Riksväg 61) meet. The AADT across this border is 6500 vehicles per day.
> 
> 
> When you see a car without headlights on during the day, it is most likely imported. Usually it is impossible to turn the lights off on a car bought in Sweden or Norway.


I find it odd that this sign's in Norwegian, English and German, with no Swedish.


----------



## Spikespiegel

ChrisZwolle said:


> Are there actually border controls between Sweden and Norway or can you just drive through?


Norway is part of Schengen. Norway had been part of the Nordic Passport Union years before Schengen was even discussed, and if Norway weren't to adopt Schengen, they and Sweden would have to build a shitload of border checks all the way through the Scandinavian peninsula.


----------



## kanterberg

nenea_hartia said:


> Last year I made a long trip, driving from Romania through Denmark and Sweden up to Nordkapp in Norway, and then back to Romania, this time through Finland and the Baltic states. There were no border controls between Sweden and Norway, nor between Norway and Finland, only some road signs pointing somewhere outside the road, informing drivers that if they have goods to declare there is a customs checkpoint there.


There is no passport/immigration/id control (nor has there been since 1958). Customs is partly another story since customs officers technically have the right to stop vehicles at EU-borders (even if it is a Schengen-border), provided that it is done randomly or on concrete suspicion (e.g. they’re not allowed to do routine checks on all cars). Since 2008 customs officials also have the right to carry out breathalyzer tests at border crossings.

So yes, you can drive straight through and most of the time the customs station will be closed (like it was when these pictures were taken).

Actually, many smaller border crossings between Sweden and Norway don’t even have a customs station. Instead, you’ll see a sign telling you to use another crossing point if you have goods to declare and call the Customs Authority in advance to make sure they’re open. :lol:


----------



## Spikespiegel

Penn's Woods said:


> I find it odd that this sign's in Norwegian, English and German, with no Swedish.


Swedes can read Norwegian.


----------



## eucitizen

kanterberg said:


> There is no passport/immigration/id control (nor has there been since 1958). Customs is partly another story since customs officers technically have the right to stop vehicles at EU-borders (even if it is a Schengen-border), provided that it is done randomly or on concrete suspicion (e.g. they’re not allowed to do routine checks on all cars). Since 2008 customs officials also have the right to carry out breathalyzer tests at border crossings.
> 
> So yes, you can drive straight through and most of the time the customs station will be closed (like it was when these pictures were taken).
> 
> Actually, many smaller border crossings between Sweden and Norway don’t even have a customs station. Instead, you’ll see a sign telling you to use another crossing point if you have goods to declare and call the Customs Authority in advance to make sure they’re open. :lol:



What kind of custom controls can they do?As far as I know Norway is a member of the EEA and thus the 4 liberties of EU are valid there too, like in Iceland and Lichtenstein.


----------



## Spikespiegel

eucitizen said:


> What kind of custom controls can they do?As far as I know Norway is a member of the EEA and thus the 4 liberties of EU are valid there too, like in Iceland and Lichtenstein.


Any member of Schengen can do selective border controls, as long as they aren't permanent checks.

For example, Denmark had border checkings 24/7 at all it's border crossings during late November / early December last year.


----------



## geogregor

Spikespiegel said:


> For example, Denmark had border checkings 24/7 at all it's border crossings during late November / early December last year.


Why? What was the justification?


----------



## Spikespiegel

geogregor said:


> Why? What was the justification?


COP15


----------



## ABRob

Penn's Woods said:


> I find it odd that this sign's in Norwegian, English and German, with no Swedish.


The last one isn't German!

In German it would be "Abblendlicht am Tag vorgeschrieben"


----------



## Alex Trst

ABRob said:


> The last one isn't German!
> 
> In German it would be "Abblendlicht am Tag vorgeschrieben"


I noticed that, but I guess it's just a mistake, and it was intended to be German.


----------



## Verso

eucitizen said:


> What kind of custom controls can they do?As far as I know Norway is a member of the EEA and thus the 4 liberties of EU are valid there too, like in Iceland and Lichtenstein.





> Even though Norway and Iceland belong to the European Economic Area, some administrative handling of goods imported from the EU may still be required at their borders. Private persons are only allowed to bring small amounts of goods and alcohol over the border tax-free, as opposed to within the EU where larger quantities are allowed.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area#Norway.2C_Iceland.2C_and_Switzerland



ABRob said:


> The last one isn't German!
> 
> In German it would be "Abblendlicht am Tag vorgeschrieben"


It's bad (and funny) German.


----------



## Attus

And some buses. Both picture were shot in Aachen, Germany. These seem to be local buses, but I suppose all of you can identify the Belgian and Dutch license plates. Actually both buses have a destination in their own side of the border but both can be used even inside Aachen with a local tariff.


----------



## TohrAlkimista

Damn, what you've experienced is pretty weird.
I do the trip between Milan and Lugano via Chiasso dozens times per year, but I never had to quit the train. :?


----------



## Attus

TohrAlkimista said:


> Damn, what you've experienced is pretty weird.
> I do the trip between Milan and Lugano via Chiasso dozens times per year, but I never had to quit the train. :?


Did you take EuroCity? In regional trains custom check can't be done in the train, since the last domestic stop is only few minutes before the border station.


----------



## dizee

Conor said:


> TohrAlkimista said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you!
> Now a silly question: you said there is not any sign to know you have crossed UK and ROI, but is there the typical EU sign in ROI, when you just left NI?
> 
> 
> 
> No problem
> 
> And to answer your follow up question, there are not EU signs on either sides of the border, which is quite strange.
Click to expand...

Because of the political situation. border areas in Northern Ireland tend to be more nationalist (pro-united Ireland) in general, so even acknowledging that it's a different country is an issue. So even the EU stars with UK likely wouldn't last long. You do sometimes see _county_ borders marked though (particularly, Fermanagh). Other than that the only way to tell you've crossed the border is some often quite subtle differences (yellow verge markings, kilometres on roadsigns, bilingual in the republic, etc...). Occasionally you'll see reminders to drive on the left too (!) 

The UK and Ireland have very relaxed border controls anyway, it's like a mini-Schengen, even if it's not technically legally one. For example flights from the Republic to the UK are treated as domestic ones (however it doesn't always work the same in reverse, everyone goes through the same passport control in Dublin Airport regardless, there can be random checks by the Garda on coaches crossing the border from Northern Ireland, etc.).

The old joke used to be that you knew it was NI when the roads were good. If anything it's arguably completely reversed nowadays... 

Of course back when tensions were higher (up to the early 90s) the border was quite strictly controlled and many minor crossings were blown up or blocked off. Some of which still haven't been restored.
_
-edit- slightly more precise version of Conor's link showing the yellow-dashed lines change to a solid white one at the cross-border N1/A1_ http://www.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&...4.113578,-6.365196&spn=0.431481,1.352692&z=10

_and the irish side_ http://www.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&...4.113821,-6.364829&spn=0.431473,1.352692&z=10


----------



## TohrAlkimista

Conor said:


> No problem
> 
> And to answer your follow up question, there are not EU signs on either sides of the border, which is quite strange.


Thank you again! Yup, that's pretty strange. 

P.S.
I just noticed something weird in the last link you put.
There is a kind of window-less building in the middle of nowhere. :nuts:



dizee said:


> Because of the political situation. border areas in Northern Ireland tend to be more nationalist (pro-united Ireland) in general, so even acknowledging that it's a different country is an issue. So even the EU stars with UK likely wouldn't last long. You do sometimes see _county_ borders marked though (particularly, Fermanagh). Other than that the only way to tell you've crossed the border is some often quite subtle differences (yellow verge markings, kilometres on roadsigns, bilingual in the republic, etc...). Occasionally you'll see reminders to drive on the left too (!)
> 
> The UK and Ireland have very relaxed border controls anyway, it's like a mini-Schengen, even if it's not technically legally one. For example flights from the Republic to the UK are treated as domestic ones (however it doesn't always work the same in reverse, everyone goes through the same passport control in Dublin Airport regardless, there can be random checks by the Garda on coaches crossing the border from Northern Ireland, etc.).
> 
> The old joke used to be that you knew it was NI when the roads were good. If anything it's arguably completely reversed nowadays...
> 
> Of course back when tensions were higher (up to the early 90s) the border was quite strictly controlled and many minor crossings were blown up or blocked off. Some of which still haven't been restored.
> _
> -edit- slightly more precise version of Conor's link showing the yellow-dashed lines change to a solid white one at the cross-border N1/A1_ http://www.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&...4.113578,-6.365196&spn=0.431481,1.352692&z=10
> 
> _and the irish side_ http://www.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&...4.113821,-6.364829&spn=0.431473,1.352692&z=10


Thank you, very detailed answer.
I hoped there were more EU signs in Ireland, at least more than in NI.


----------



## TohrAlkimista

Attus said:


> Did you take EuroCity? In regional trains custom check can't be done in the train, since the last domestic stop is only few minutes before the border station.


Uhm, interesting.
I never took local trains to Como via Chiasso, so I do not know.

But that sounds still a bit silly to me.


----------



## Stainless

dizee said:


> The UK and Ireland have very relaxed border controls anyway, it's like a mini-Schengen, even if it's not technically legally one. For example flights from the Republic to the UK are treated as domestic ones (however it doesn't always work the same in reverse, everyone goes through the same passport control in Dublin Airport regardless, there can be random checks by the Garda on coaches crossing the border from Northern Ireland, etc.).


It seems to me like an incomplete Schengen, which can cause some difficulties. For instance, you can be let into the UK on a visa (if you are non EU/Commonwealth) but not be allowed into Ireland. It is only a problem if you get caught but there appears to be no way of passing Irish immigration from the UK unless you fly into an international airport. This means it is impossible to plan a trip entering GB or even NI and subsequently leaving ROI unless you can travel freely in both.


----------



## dizee

Stainless said:


> It seems to me like an incomplete Schengen, which can cause some difficulties. For instance, you can be let into the UK on a visa (if you are non EU/Commonwealth) but not be allowed into Ireland. It is only a problem if you get caught but there appears to be no way of passing Irish immigration from the UK unless you fly into an international airport. This means it is impossible to plan a trip entering GB or even NI and subsequently leaving ROI unless you can travel freely in both.


Yeah, strictly speaking the so-called Common Travel Area is only for British and Irish citizens. Although it seems like if you don't need a visa it kind of _de facto_ works too. Anyway the visa requirements are broadly similar. Just it's not officially legislated for like Schengen, so if you need a visa best idea is to get one for both countries beforehand. Needlessly messy. 

Of course Ireland would be happy to join the Schengen area, but if we do and the UK doesn't it means controlling the Northern Irish border. Which would be a backwards step, so we're stuck.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Attus said:


> I know it is a little bit off topic but you talked a lot about trains and buses so now I put some pictures here:
> Regional trains from Bellinzona - Lugano (SUI) to Como (ITA) have a stop at Chiasso which is the border station between the two nations (trains usually do not stop right at the state border but the neighbor countries select a border station, in this case Chiasso is actually in Switzerland).
> Passangers must leave the train and follow a yellow line inside the station building.
> There is a custom office there for railway passangers. Normally officers do not stop you passing the office but there is a policeman and if someone tries to pass the office having a large bag, s/he will be asked to stop, I suppose.
> At the end you arrive to another train, standing at the very same platform, this one goes on and takes you to your destination.





TohrAlkimista said:


> Damn, what you've experienced is pretty weird.
> I do the trip between Milan and Lugano via Chiasso dozens times per year, but I never had to quit the train. :?


Usually there is no need to change trains there, and trains stop in Chiasso like in any other station and cross the border. There are no regular border checks (only some random checks occur).

Train change is temporary: the trains used between Lugano and Como are built to run on two different types of electric current, 15 kV AC for Switzerland and 3 kV DC for Italy. As technicians have found a problem in the 3 kV DC equipment of some (but not all) of these trains until September passengers will have to change train in Chiasso. The trains are sent to the workshops to have their 3 kV equipment repaired, when all the trains will be repaired there will again be a direct service without change in Chiasso.


----------



## Attus

Coccodrillo said:


> Train change is temporary


At first sight I thought some similar thing as well (now one single train of TILO runs up and down between Chiasso and Albate) but this sign and the fact that passangers did not walked in the platform but throughthe custom office although the other trainset was waiting in the other end of the same platform confused me.


----------



## Coccodrillo

This division is probably also useful to avoid confusion during rush hour, as the trains arrive in the station together. So the two flows don't meet each other (even if the number of passengers in August is not that big to cause confusion).


----------



## Rusonaldo

PL / D Świecko / Frankfurt


----------



## Komiksulo

Here's the Canada/US border in Wild Horse, Alberta / Dead Horse, Montana. We reached it by traveling south from the Trans-Canada Highway along Alberta Highway 41. Approaching the border. Both border stations are surrounded by trees on the otherwise open, widswept prairie (steppe). On the way there, we passed the infamous NO SERVICE OR RESIDENCES NEXT 134 km sign. If you broke down on this road in the winter, you'd probably die.

Just before the crossing, the road runs parallel to the border for a while. The actual border is the wire fence on the right. The Canadian inspection station is just ahead, then the road makes a right-angle turn across the line, and the US inspection station is just beyond.


----------



## YorkTown

Algerian - Moroccan borders, Morocco begins with the trees at the bottom.


----------



## binhai

^^What's the point of building the motorway all the way to the border?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

In the hope Morocco will do the same.


----------



## nenea_hartia

Thank you, YorkTown. That is the most weird road I have ever seen. :nuts:

But is that the border between Algeria and - let's say - the old Morocco, or between Algeria and Western Sahara?


----------



## Bad_Hafen

Border LV-EST Ainazi-Ikla


----------



## CasaMor

ChrisZwolle said:


> In the hope Morocco will do the same.


We will! But the border is closed! No crossing! 



nenea_hartia said:


> Thank you, YorkTown. That is the most weird road I have ever seen. :nuts:
> 
> But is that the border between Algeria and - let's say - the old Morocco, or between Algeria and Western Sahara?


Between Algeria and Morocco!


----------



## nenea_hartia

CasaMor said:


> Between Algeria and Morocco!


Merci beaucoup.


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> In the hope Morocco will do the same.


Knowing the two countries as I know them, I think it's more to spite the Moroccans really. If it was only in the hope that Morocco will do the same, they would have built the motorway to the last exit in Algeria, and just reserved the land to the border to complete the motorway when the border opens. It makes no sense to spend money to build a section of motorway that won't be used for many years, and that will probably have to be largely rebuilt by the time the border finally opens. Except of course if you want to nag the neighboring country.

Also, what I find funny is this delusion of grandeur, building a 2x3 motorway across the entire country when traffic doesn't justify 6 lanes. I don't know if they realize that you don't just have the Chinese build a motorway for you and voilà. You also have to maintain the motorway afterwards, repave it frequently, which is very costly. I wonder how many potholes there'll be on that white elephant motorway in 10 or 20 years.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, Algeria has 35 million people, most of whom who live among the A1 corridor. But I agree, 2x3 is overkill in some areas. But then again, better a 2x3 motorway than no motorway at all. It looks like some foo...motorways for oil programme.


----------



## brisavoine

Algerians are not as motorized as the Europeans, and a lot of the population are children. So compared to a European country, it's more like a country of 10 million. Even the most populated European countries only built 2x2 motorways in the beginning, and enlarged them only years later, and in fact some major corridors are still not enlarged, so as you say this Algerian motorway is really an overkill. And the major problem is it will cost lots of money to maintain, in a country where GDP per capita is low and oil money is largely diverted by the elites for their own use.


----------



## CasaMor

^^ Morocco builds only 2*2! They are enlarging the Casablanca - Rabat to 2*3 to solve the traffic problem, it's the busiest african motorway with more than 55000 cars/day!


----------



## brisavoine

CasaMor said:


> ^^ Morocco builds only 2*2!


That makes much more sense. Build 2*2 motorways and reserve land on the side of the motorway for an enlargement to 2*3 when it becomes necessary in a few years or decades. It's better than to build a 2*3 white elephant motorway which will cost a lot of money to maintain just for the sake of boasting one's grandeur.


----------



## Morsue

The Moroccan part of the so-called trans-maghrebine motorway will terminate at Oujda, and well west of the town itself leaving the last few kms as expressway. A study has been carried out for the remainder of the motorway to the Algerian border but I'm not sure that it will necessarily be able to be drawn to that exact spot.

Anyway, there will need to be border facilities built and the border line will be inside these facilities leading to at minimum the destruction of several hundred meters of this faboulous Algerian motorway. Money that could have been used to save sick children. The waste...

Btw, that border doesn't seem to be close to opening anytime soon.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

CasaMor said:


> ^^ Morocco builds only 2*2! They are enlarging the Casablanca - Rabat to 2*3 to solve the traffic problem, it's the busiest african motorway with more than 55000 cars/day!


I really doubt that. I'm sure there are busier freeways in South Africa and maybe Egypt and Nigeria as well.


----------



## Morsue

ChrisZwolle said:


> I really doubt that. I'm sure there are busier freeways in South Africa and maybe Egypt and Nigeria as well.


It's the busiest toll motorway in Africa. And btw, they wouldn't need to widen that if people just knew how to drive in an orderly manner. I quite sure too that when the third lane is open, no one will use the right lane but trucks and for overtaking. The middle lane will be jammed...


----------



## brisavoine

^^It ain't Scandinavia, sunshine.


----------



## CasaMor

ChrisZwolle said:


> I really doubt that. I'm sure there are busier freeways in South Africa and maybe Egypt and Nigeria as well.


Do you understand french? 



> L'autoroute Casablanca - Rabat A3 est la première à être mise en place, elle est également l'autoroute payante la plus fréquentée en Afrique avec un débit moyen de 55 109 véhicules/jour en juillet 2009.


Source: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_autoroutes_du_Maroc


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I understand it, it says "the most traveled toll motorway in Africa with an average of 55,109 vehicles per day in July 2009".

Two remarks;

* The July value is probably the highest in the year. Normally, only yearly values are used (which are often lower than summer peak periods)
* It only includes toll roads. The Cairo Ring Road is toll free, and so are freeways in South Africa. These will carry most likely more than 55,000 vpd. (55,000 isn't very high, almost any rural motorway in Germany, Italy or the Netherlands sees such volumes).


----------



## Muttie

ChrisZwolle said:


> I understand it, it says "the most traveled toll motorway in Africa with an average of 55,109 vehicles per day in July 2009".
> 
> Two remarks;
> 
> * The July value is probably the highest in the year. Normally, only yearly values are used (which are often lower than summer peak periods)
> * It only includes toll roads. The Cairo Ring Road is toll free, and so are freeways in South Africa. These will carry most likely more than 55,000 vpd. (55,000 isn't very high, almost any rural motorway in Germany, Italy or the Netherlands sees such volumes).


And how much people in NL, Ger or Italy own a car? Are we really comparing a third world country to fully developed nations?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'd hardly call Morocco a third world country. They're somewhere in between. By the way, I also think there could be busier roads in Algiers.


----------



## CasaMor

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'd hardly call Morocco a third world country. They're somewhere in between. By the way, I also think there could be busier roads in Algiers.


Casablanca (about 5millions) - Rabat (about 2millions) = 90km! It's not hard to understand!


----------



## Muttie

Either way, I would like to see Morocco connecting those highways - for future generations. Oujda can easily profit from such a connection (just like in the early days when Algerian tourists flocked towards Morocco). It has been calculated that Inter-Maghreb trade could add up to 2% GDP growth.


----------



## Morsue

brisavoine said:


> ^^It ain't Scandinavia, sunshine.


As I'm acutely aware... But still, it's nothing like Romanian driving.


----------



## nenea_hartia

Morsue said:


> As I'm acutely aware... But still, it's nothing like Romanian driving.


hno: A lot of stupid and dangerous men doing stupid and dangerous things. But to defend my fellow drivers , I must say that the madman driving the lorry was a Turk and the lorry he was trying to overpass (whose driver didn't even tried to use the brake for a moment to let the madman go, not even for his personal safety) was a Bulgarian one. 
Now seriously speaking, that is one of the busiest roads in the country (part of the Pan-European Corridor IV) and what you saw in that video was partially the result of the lack of motorways in Romania.


----------



## geogregor

CasaMor said:


> Casablanca (about 5millions) - Rabat (about 2millions) = 90km! It's not hard to understand!


Actually it is hard to understand why it is only 55k/day 

I'm pretty sure Johannesburg - Pretoria carry more than 55k a day. Can anyone provide data?


----------



## CasaMor

geogregor said:


> Actually it is hard to understand why it is only 55k/day
> 
> I'm pretty sure Johannesburg - Pretoria carry more than 55k a day. Can anyone provide data?


Because there's also a free national road! 

Is there a highway between Jo'burg and Pretoria?


----------



## aghiles11

I doubt that the highway CASA-Rabat is the busiest in Africa, even the least important motorway in Algiers is more, even in 2x5, traffic is very slow.


For example, the number of vehicles circulating in the capital of Algeria is almost equal to all the vehicles available throughout Morocco.


----------



## CasaMor

aghiles11 said:


> I doubt that the highway CASA-Rabat is the busiest in Africa, even the least important motorway in Algiers is more, even in 2x5, traffic is very slow.
> 
> 
> For example, the number of vehicles circulating in the capital of Algeria is almost equal to all the vehicles available throughout Morocco.


looooooooooooooool :lol::lol::lol: You think you know but you have no idea! 

BTW, we are talking about highways between cities!


----------



## ed110220

CasaMor said:


> Because there's also a free national road!
> 
> Is there a highway between Jo'burg and Pretoria?


Yes, there are two freeways between Johannesburg and Pretoria: the N1 and the R21. They are both being widened at the moment (possibly the work is already finished), the N1 from 2x3 to 2x4 (or 2x5 in places it seems) and the R21 from 2x2 to 2x4. 

Here's the N1 at Midrand, around half way between Joburg and Pretoria: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Margate,+KwaZulu-Natal,+South+Africa&sll=-33.981436,22.689257&sspn=0.025444,0.038581&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Margate,+KwaZulu-Natal,+South+Africa&ll=-26.003876,28.12088&spn=0.110312,0.154324&t=h&z=13&layer=c&cbll=-26.003627,28.120889&panoid=zNv9sXdTSF3MmvwYPaS1GA&cbp=12,216.99,,0,4.5

And the R21: 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=R21,+Kempton+Park,+Gauteng,+South+Africa&sll=-30.851339,30.37871&sspn=0.104781,0.154324&g=Margate,+KwaZulu-Natal,+South+Africa&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=R21,+Kempton+Park,+Gauteng,+South+Africa&ll=-26.08096,28.271676&spn=0.02756,0.038581&z=15&layer=c&cbll=-26.081362,28.271346&panoid=-3bxpefKfQEmgRvDjjZeWg&cbp=12,167,,0,-0.41

Openstreetmap gives a clearer map as it labels freeways in blue: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-34.051&lon=23.0174&zoom=14&layers=M


----------



## aghiles11

CasaMor said:


> looooooooooooooool :lol::lol::lol: You think you know but you have no idea!
> 
> BTW, we are talking about highways between cities!


Every day there are 2 million vehiucles circulating Algiers, and Morocco has 2.5 million.

The bypass roads are long in Algiers, the south bypass (80km) is the equivalent of Casa-Rabat. even if I don't know, I can say than its traffic is minimum 20% of vehicles in Algiers. you can calculate.


----------



## Gadiri

CasaMor said:


> ^^ Morocco builds only 2*2! They are enlarging the Casablanca - Rabat to 2*3 to solve the traffic problem, *it's the busiest african motorway with more than 55000 cars/day! *


42 000 vehicles/day in 2009 and 46 000 v/d forsee in 2010 (increase of 7,7 like in 2008 and 2009).

Wikipedia is good, but not all the time Casamor.  Maybe 55 000 v/d are in july and august. 


adm.co.ma

But this is the busiest african highway.

PS : no figures, no evidences for others.


----------



## CasaMor

aghiles11 said:


> Every day there are 2 million vehiucles circulating Algiers, and Morocco has 2.5 million.
> 
> The bypass roads are long in Algiers, the south bypass (80km) is the equivalent of Casa-Rabat. even if I don't know, I can say than its traffic is minimum 20% of vehicles in Algiers. you can calculate.


Ça va! Je te dis qu'on parle de trafic autoroutier entre 2 villes! On ne parle pas des périphériques et des rocades! 

Le nombre de voitures qui circulent à Casa est plusieurs fois supérieur à celui de celles qui se dirigent vers Rabat!


----------



## Morsue

CasaMor said:


> Ça va! Je te dis qu'on parle de trafic autoroutier entre 2 villes! On ne parle pas des périphériques et des rocades!
> 
> Le nombre de voitures qui circulent à Casa est plusieurs fois supérieur à celui de celles qui se dirigent vers Rabat!


Translation:


> We're talking about traffic between the two cities. We're not talking about bypasses.
> 
> The number of vehicles circulating in Casablanca is many times higher than those heading towards Rabat.


Please, don't make this into a my country is better than yours typ of thread...


----------



## CasaMor

Morsue said:


> Please, don't make this into a my country is better than yours typ of thread...


I'm just answering to his comment!


----------



## koloite

The German - Swiss ferry crossing between Friedrichshafen and Romanshorn (photo taken in Friedrichshafen). I guess the Swiss Lamborghini (?) owners club had had a field trip to Germany to check whether their cars were still functioning properly...


----------



## DanielFigFoz

geogregor said:


> Actually it is hard to understand why it is only 55k/day
> 
> I'm pretty sure Johannesburg - Pretoria carry more than 55k a day. Can anyone provide data?


Acording to wikipedia, the N1 between Johannesburg and Pretoria (the Ben Schoerman Highway) carries 300 000 cars a day.


----------



## Barciur

I've crossed the border between USA-Canada. One question I have for you guys - why an earth do they require you to give them your licence plates when you're buying something in the duty free store? :nuts:
































































There was probably about 5 cameras taking your pictures as you proceeded to the booth :nuts: much easier crossing into Canada.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Canada and the United States should introduce a customs union. This reminds me of Europe 40 years ago.


----------



## Fatfield

USA - Canada border on Rainbow Bridge (Niagara Falls)


----------



## Barciur

> Canada and the United States should introduce a customs union. This reminds me of Europe 40 years ago.


it used to be easier because all you needed was an ID, now it went worse so i don't see anything like this happening in a near future


----------



## nenea_hartia

Barciur said:


> it used to be easier because all you needed was an ID, now it went worse


But why? For what reason? Anti-terrorist measures of maybe anti-immigration?


----------



## Barciur

Ever since September 11th, the US has been taking ridicuolous measures in the name of security. That's one of them.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ While selling guns and automatic rifles at every street corner... :nuts:


----------



## nenea_hartia

Barciur said:


> Ever since September 11th, the US has been taking ridicuolous measures in the name of security. That's one of them.


Thank you for the answer. Unfortunately from time to time some suspects of terrorism did entered in the US using main airports and legal passports, right under the nose of Federal Authorities, while me or other East-Europeans probably wouldn't get a visa for a tourist visit.


----------



## bogdymol

nenea_hartia said:


> Thank you for the answer. Unfortunately from time to time some suspects of terrorism did entered in the US using main airports and legal passports, right under the nose of Federal Authorities, while me or other East-Europeans probably wouldn't get a visa for a tourist visit.


You are right here. I barely got a 3-month visa. Besides terorism, they are very suspicios on everyone not to remain in the US after the visa expired and work there illegaly.


----------



## brewerfan386

People who live and work here Illegally is *HUGE* & heated political issue here in the USA. Well I agree we shouldn't be putting so much focus on the northern border. Instead we should be moving many of those resources to the southern one. Much of that border is crime ridden and very violent with drug warfare. Tourists, journalists, and govt officials are getting gunned down on a daily basis in Mexican border towns. Unfortunately some of that is now starting to spill over to our side. It is so bad in some places that the Feds have repeatedly sent the Army National Guard to assist the United States Border Patrol and ICE. 
In comparison, the Canadian border is almost always very peaceful and safe. We have the longest unmilitarized common border in entire world. The United States and Canada enjoy the largest trade relationship in the world. For example trade between the countries supports over 103,000 jobs in Wisconsin alone. Many here jokingly refer to Canada as our odd northern state. Both of the countries share a British heritage and founding. Also we share sports leagues, telephone systems, transportation networks, and tourists etc.


----------



## g.spinoza

brewerfan386 said:


> Both of the countries share a British heritage and founding.


Don't tell this to a Quebecois!


----------



## AlexisMD

Verso said:


> To the country (s)he has the front door in.


so if he or she moves the door to the other side he or she will pay taxes to another country ? 

nice


----------



## Verso

^^ Yes, I think you can choose on your own.


----------



## Diego G.

AlexisMD said:


> so if he or she moves the door to the other side he or she will pay taxes to another country ?
> 
> nice


Actually the building has two doors and two postal adresses, but the main entrance is on Belgian Soil, so this is the country where they pay taxes. 

It was common among the buidings divided by the border move the door of the house to the other country in order to pay lower taxes. This was decades ago, however.


----------



## mgk920

ChrisZwolle said:


> Also between the Czech Republic and Slovakia, but otherwise these situations are pretty rare.


There are several between Canada and the USA. For example, MN (formerly 'US') 61 becomes ON 61 at the Grand Portage border crossing.

Mike


----------



## Coccodrillo

It is not exactly the same, but Italian SS 27 is part of the E 27.


----------



## binhai

Between New England states most of the state routes have the same number, which isn't the case elsewhere in the US


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Due to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_road_marking_system


----------



## paF4uko

A new border check point opened yesterday between Bulgaria and Greece, six months before abolishing Bulgaria and Romania's border controls with other Schengen states.










Posted by Vojvoda in the Bulgarian section.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Where is it located? It seems to end in a dirt road on the Greek side, or am I mistaken in that picture?


----------



## eucitizen

A typical EU border crossing, pre Schengen, easy to remove.


----------



## AlexisMD

ChrisZwolle said:


> Where is it located? It seems to end in a dirt road on the Greek side, or am I mistaken in that picture?


Ivaylovgrad-Kyprinos









I think pavement is on the Greek side


----------



## xeoc

Malaysia -Singapore border crossing.
CIQ Complex Malaysia Side.























































































































Departure hall







opening ceremony







Bus hub G1 floor


----------



## nenea_hartia

^ That is impressive.


----------



## seem

ChrisZwolle said:


> Also between the Czech Republic and Slovakia, but otherwise these situations are pretty rare.


Just because Slovakia was a part of Cezchoslovakia. D2 was planned to connect Bratislava with Brno and Prague (CZ D1) + foreign cities.


----------



## Palance

After the impressie MY-SG-border, now time for a simple boring Schengenborder. A cyclepath crosses the border between Belgium (position of the picturetaker)and the Netherlands (background) at a bordermarker.


----------



## bogdymol

Two Schengen borders I crossed last week:

Hungary / Slovakia on M15 / D2 (border crossing from 2:08):






Slovakia / Czech Republic on D2 (border crossing from 4:32):






At 5:13 you can see a police checkpoint.


----------



## eucitizen

Probably they were checking the vignette notice one policeman has the binoculars.


----------



## malegi

Bridge Brazil - Paraguay












Iguazu Falls: Brazil (in the left) - Argentina (in the right side)












The region

http://www.info.lncc.br/spr24.jpg


----------



## AlexisMD

eucitizen said:


> Probably they were checking the vignette notice one policeman has the binoculars.


why they check so soon after border crossing ? the don't give a chance to buy it first on the nearest gas station and then perform the checks ?


----------



## eucitizen

You have to buy at the border at the latest. Some hundreds meters before there is the exit to the rest area of the former border crossing and there you buy the vignette.


----------



## hofburg

bogdymol said:


> Two Schengen borders I crossed last week:
> 
> Hungary / Slovakia on


wow! great video, nice entering Bratislava. :cheers: D2 after Bratislava isn't in very good shape.


----------



## philimonas

I think they are making "random" passport/customs checks. 
No need to open the trunk to check for a vignette :lol: !


----------



## eucitizen

well maybe that guy forogt the vignette in the trunk 
sure it can be both cases but they are rarely there checking, so probably was something going on. It would be interesting which nationality they stopped.


----------



## philimonas

Maybe Greek:lol: 
I am stopped very frequently at such checks (I mean, when there is one, its very probable that they will stop me) when I go abroad:bash:


----------



## eucitizen

Uhm why?do you look suspicious?Or because you are taking milions of euros away from Greece?


----------



## philimonas

I think it's because it's rare to see a Greek car so far from home :lol:


----------



## eucitizen

Hahah maybe you are right, but lately I have seen quite lot of Greek cars cruising around Europe.


----------



## Dantiscum

Swiss - italian border crossing in Chiasso A2 [CH] ---> A9 _ 
















































































_


----------



## seem

*Border in Štúrovo (Parkány)/Esztergom (Ostrihom) SK/H on a bridge called : Most Márie Valérie/Mária Valéria híd
*









and some another


----------



## seem

*The Border / Hranica
*
I`d like to watch this film.



> A documentary about a village that was during one night in 1947 separated by force into a Soviet and a Czechoslovak part in a way, that the border runs through the middle of the village, separating properties and families.


and nice video -http://www.imdb.com/video/wab/vi1235289369/


----------



## eucitizen

We already talked about this topic some months ago


----------



## seem

^^ I can`t google it. :nuts:


----------



## nenea_hartia

seem said:


> ^^ I can`t google it. :nuts:


Neither do I.


----------



## malegi

Brazil - Peru border in Assis Brasil, state of Acre. In the middle of nowhere in the amazon jungle. Not too much traffic. Very often, there is no one working at the brazilian custom service.










On the other side is Peru.


----------



## Ingenioren

Aerial of border in Narva, looking from Estonia into Russia:


----------



## Warsaw spectator

seem said:


> *The Border / Hranica
> *
> I`d like to watch this film.
> 
> 
> 
> and nice video -http://www.imdb.com/video/wab/vi1235289369/


here is the longer version of this trailer:






:uh:I had know, that there are such places like this, but this trailer realises me how shocking, terrible and cruel it is! F*ck!



PS So if one would like to say something about that Schengen border is boring, pls make up your mind and think twice!

PS2 can smbdy from Slovakia check if this film is available in Slovak online shops on dvd with English/Polish subtitles?


----------



## WB2010

Ingenioren said:


> Aerial of border in Narva, looking from Estonia into Russia:


Before 1940 both banks of the Narva river were Estonian. Only after that this territory was stolen by Stalin hno:


----------



## seem

Warsaw spectator said:


> PS2 can smbdy from Slovakia check if this film is available in Slovak online shops on dvd with English/Polish subtitles?


I am sorry but I can`t find it. Anyway, try google more or try to watch it in Slovak but I bet there are some English subtitles.

Btw, pictures from the border in this village. I have to see this parts of Slovakia and UA one day - http://www.border.sk/htm/sk/main/fotogaleria.html


----------



## dawid_silesia

Sudice-Pietraszyn CZ/PL


----------



## Verso

Who says European border crossings are boring? 

This is border crossing Dragonja/Kaštel between Slovenia and Croatia after floods, the main border crossing between the Slovenian and Croatian parts of Istria (between Koper and Pula).









_http://0.static.zurnal24.si/images/24/20/542420/fullscreen2.jpg_


----------



## seem

^^ Which road exactly is it?

Btw, is there any plan to connect H5 - "Istriska(u) cesta(u)" with Croatian A9?


----------



## Alex Trst

Verso said:


> Who says European border crossings are boring?
> 
> This is border crossing Dragonja/Kaštel between Slovenia and Croatia after floods, the main border crossing between the Slovenian and Croatian parts of Istria (between Koper and Pula).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _http://0.static.zurnal24.si/images/24/20/542420/fullscreen2.jpg_


That's incredible! What a mess!
I experienced those floods last weekend, neverending rain for two days!
All roads between Italy and Slovenia were flooded too, but nothing similar to Dragonja happened in Rabojez on the Italian-Slovenian border.


----------



## Verso

^^ Rabujez/Rabuiese is on an expressway, so I suppose it lies higher than Dragonja.



seem said:


> ^^ Which road exactly is it?
> 
> Btw, is there any plan to connect H5 - "Istriska(u) cesta(u)" with Croatian A9?


It's the Slovenian G11.

A 4-lane expressway is planned there (H5), but not so soon.


----------



## seem

Verso said:


> It's the Slovenian G11.
> 
> A 4-lane expressway is planned there (H5), but not so soon.


I use this road when I go to the Istria. hno:


----------



## seem

Building, flags near prialment and bridge - Bratislava Slovakia, Forest, Hills and village in background Austria 



marish said:


>


----------



## eucitizen

And River Park :banana:


----------



## Verso

seem said:


> Building, flags near prialment and bridge - Bratislava Slovakia, Forest, Hills and village in background Austria


Ljubljana Castle - Slovenia, behind the yellow line - Austria.


----------



## Markowice10

Verso said:


> Ljubljana Castle - Slovenia, behind the yellow line - Austria.
> 
> 
> 
> We wait the photo of border crossings Slovenia - Slovakia :lol:


----------



## Verso

Markowice10 said:


> We wait the photo of border crossings Slovenia - Slovakia :lol:


Snežnik (1,796 m) - Slovenia, behind the first yellow line - Croatia, behind the second yellow line - Bosnia.


----------



## seem

Verso said:


> Ljubljana Castle - Slovenia, behind the yellow line - Austria.


Yeah, it`s not so far but not so close as 2,5 km from Bratislava Castle to Austria and 15 km to Hungary.


----------



## hofburg

seem said:


> Building, flags near prialment and bridge - Bratislava Slovakia, Forest, Hills and village in background Austria


nice photo. those hills are actually the westernmost part of Tatra mountains right? it's just Danube in the middle...


----------



## chumpon

Malaysia & Singapore


----------



## przerywacz

Johor Bahru/Woodlands ^^


----------



## seem

hofburg said:


> nice photo. those hills are actually the westernmost part of Tatra mountains right? it's just Danube in the middle...


No. These are actually Carpathian Mountains and it is the only part of these mts in Austria. Tatras mts are part of Carpathian. 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Mapcarpat2.png

And for you to imagine how close is our Capital to Austria, I bet in a few years this villages will be just a pure Slovak. :nuts:


----------



## hofburg

seem said:


> No. These are actually Carpathian Mountains and it is the only part of these mts in Austria. Tatras mts are part of Carpathian.
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Mapcarpat2.png


I was thinking of Carpathian but said it wrong. anyway, my point was that it's not the Alps, which are "Austrian" but that it's something "Slovakian" lost in Austria. 



> And for you to imagine how close is our Capital to Austria, I bet in a few years this villages will be just a pure Slovak. :nuts:


I know, I drove already Vienna - Bratislava.  what do you mean by that?


----------



## bogdymol

Another Schengen Border:

Mosty u Jablunkova (CZ) - Zilina (SK):





Bonus:

 Video starts in the last village from Czech Republic: Mosty u Jablunkova
1:10 - CZ/SK border crossing
3:05 - Horelica Tunnel


----------



## DanielFigFoz

hofburg said:


> I was thinking of Carpathian but said it wrong. anyway, my point was that it's not the Alps, which are "Austrian" but that it's something "Slovakian" lost in Austria.
> 
> 
> 
> I know, I drove already Vienna - Bratislava.  what do you mean by that?


I think he means that Bratislavan suburbia is spreading into Austria, thus making Austrian villages close to Bratislava Slovakian speaking.

Then again, maybe he doesn't mean that:lol:.

I also noticed the "Pressburger Bundesstrasse" on the Austrian side and the "Viedenská cesta" on the Slovakian side (Pressburg being German for Bratislava and it's former name).


----------



## seem

DanielFigFoz said:


> I think he means that Bratislavan suburbia is spreading into Austria, thus making Austrian villages close to Bratislava Slovakian speaking.
> 
> Then again, maybe he doesn't mean that:lol:.


Of course.  

There are already some villages with schools learning Slovak language and you can see there Slovak adverts, sometimes when cashier see you are from Slovakia says "Dobrý deň" or starting speaking Slovak.  (what is rare)

But if I am sure the biggest minority of Slovaks (from Bratislava) is in Hungarian village Rajka.



> I also noticed the "Pressburger Bundesstrasse" on the Austrian side and the "Viedenská cesta" on the Slovakian side (Pressburg being German for Bratislava and it's former name).




and there is also in Bratislava road to Kittsee called "Kopčianska cesta" (Kittsee=Kopčany) and in Kittsee road to Bratislava (part Kopčany, beacause village was divided to 2 parts) called Pressburger strasse.


----------



## WB2010

There are already some villages with schools learning Slovak language and you can see there Slovak adverts, sometimes when cashier see you are from Slovakia says "Dobrý deň" or starting speaking Slovak.  (what is rare)

[/QUOTE]

The same thing is taking place in eastern Germany, just across the border from Szczecin, a Polish city very similar in size to Bratislava. For example the German town Locknitz, 25 km west of Szczecin and 10 km from the border, is becoming more and more Polish


----------



## hofburg

DanielFigFoz said:


> I think he means that Bratislavan suburbia is spreading into Austria, thus making Austrian villages close to Bratislava Slovakian speaking.


I didn't realize that, but I find ot interesting.  quite normal I would say.



> I also noticed the "Pressburger Bundesstrasse" on the Austrian side and the "Viedenská cesta" on the Slovakian side (Pressburg being German for Bratislava and it's former name).





> and there is also in Bratislava road to Kittsee called "Kopčianska cesta" (Kittsee=Kopčany) and in Kittsee road to Bratislava (part Kopčany, beacause village was divided to 2 parts) called Pressburger strasse.


In Ljubljana there's also Dunajska cesta (vienna's road), but all that I think that's something left from the common country we all 've been in once.


----------



## seem

hofburg said:


> In Ljubljana there's also Dunajska cesta (vienna's road), but all that I think that's something left from the common country we all 've been in once.


Danube road  but Danube is in former capital - Vienna. 

yes, of course is also because Vienna was also capital for us (but more Budapest as a capital of Hungarian kingdom) but it`s just 60 km and it is/was really important city

BTW: A pri železničnej stanici v Ljubljane je Masarykova cesta!: )


----------



## Surel

In CZ we have just some Dutch villages... . Don't know however about any nowadays czech villages abroad.


----------



## Surel

hofburg said:


> In Ljubljana there's also Dunajska cesta (vienna's road), but all that I think that's something left from the common country we all 've been in once.


Sure... It was quite common to name the ways with the name of the city where they head to. It already started allways with the name of the gate that directed towards that city. The road just acquired the name from the gate and direction. Funny that in this way the roads had double names ... The gates however only one. How they did it in between I don't know... I would however say it would have to do something with the city rights also - how far they reached so far could the name be used perhaps.


----------



## Alex Trst

hofburg said:


> In Ljubljana there's also Dunajska cesta (vienna's road), but all that I think that's something left from the common country we all 've been in once.


Yeah! In Trieste we also have "Strada per Vienna / Dunajska Cesta", it is the old path to Vienna through Ljubljana and Graz.


----------



## mapman:cz

Hm, that's new for me - Dunaj means Vienna in Slovenian... Where did this name come from?? In Slovak/Czech it means only Danube river, Vienna is Viedeň/Vídeň.


----------



## hofburg

Surel said:


> Sure... It was quite common to name the ways with the name of the city where they head to. It already started allways with the name of the gate that directed towards that city. The road just acquired the name from the gate and direction. Funny that in this way the roads had double names ... The gates however only one. How they did it in between I don't know... I would however say it would have to do something with the city rights also - how far they reached so far could the name be used perhaps.


 :lol: I agree. wait, I'm not sure.  do you use some kind of translator? 



> BTW: A pri železničnej stanici v Ljubljane je Masarykova cesta!: )


:yes:



> Danube road  but Danube is in former capital - Vienna.


I know that it has two or more meanings, but be sure, we don't have any roads for Danube!  (although it seemed we had roads under "Danube" a week ago.


----------



## seem

hofburg said:


> I know that it has two or more meanings, but be sure, we don't have any roads for Danube!  (although it seemed we had roads under "Danube" a week ago.


Ooo, this tricky language!  

I`ve just realised it really means Vienna`s road.

another tricky street is Slovenska cesta near castle which in Slovak language means Slovak road but in Slovenian it means Slovenian road 

_and to be not so off topic -_

_border Bratislava/Rajka, SK/H on a road 2 now it`s not in use
_









_other road
_


















_and on a motorway D2/M15
_


----------



## Surel

hofburg said:


> :lol: I agree. wait, I'm not sure.  do you use some kind of translator?


Translator? What for?


----------



## hofburg

to translate to english. sorry, but your post sounded like that.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

^^ No it didn't, and this is from a native English speaker :lol:


----------



## Palance

Pictures of the souternmost (legal) possibility to cross the border between Portugal and Spain between Villa Real de Sao Antonio (PT) and Ayamonte (ES). The ferry is suitalbe for cars, but that is not nessecary anymore since the A22-A49 crossing has been opened 20 years ago.

Pictures

1. Portugese EU-sign









2. Looking south, where the Guidiana river flows into the Atlantic.









3. The Portugese terminal and the ramp which can be used for cars (but none did)









4. So, space enough on the ferry.









5. en 6. The highway between Portugal (A22, left) and Spain (A49, right)

















7. en 8. Arrival in Ayamonte, Spain. It is 1 hour later than in Portugal.

















9. Back in Portugal (and 1 hour back in time)









10. Portugese sign to the ferry


----------



## DanielFigFoz

^^ With Schengen, isn't everywhere a legal crossing?

P.S I've been on that ferry, did you see the shipwreck.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Was the pavement on A22-A-49 still that bad? I saw a video of the border bridge, it had bad pavement (on the bridge only).


----------



## DanielFigFoz

^^ Possibly, the A22 is a pretty bad excuse for a motorway anyway.


----------



## Alex Trst

DanielFigFoz said:


> ^^ With Schengen, isn't everywhere a legal crossing?


Yes, of course! Finally! :banana:


----------



## pai nosso

Palance said:


> Pictures of the souternmost (legal) possibility to cross the border between Portugal and Spain between Villa Real de Sao Antonio (PT) and Ayamonte (ES). The ferry is suitalbe for cars, but that is not nessecary anymore since the A22-A49 crossing has been opened 20 years ago.
> 
> Pictures
> 
> 9. Back in Portugal (and 1 hour back in time)



With the opening of the international bridge 20 years ago, the portuguese railways shutdown a train station (of the Algarve Line [Lagos-Vila Real de Santo António]) that was located on the ferry dock!!!


----------



## bogdymol

Look what I caught on camera last month (CZ/SK/PL border):










And the signposts (I know that is not very readable, but the writing was just graved on them, without different color):

Czech Republic:









Poland:









Slovakia:


















The actual tri-border is in the middle of this small river below the bridge:










Picture taken here.


----------



## seem

^^ Great! I was so wondering if there is place like this! 

_I will go there when I will be in Slovakia. So guys, be prepared for pics _


----------



## bogdymol

^^ If you come from Slovakia I think it's better to enter CZ and head to Hrčava, because I haven't seen any acces road from the Slovak side (except one forest road but looked very unaccesible, even on foot). From Hrčava there is a 1 km footpath and you reach the tripoint.


----------



## 1+1=3

bogdymol said:


>


650 km to Aš on the other corner of CZ - that's probably the longest distance one can go in Czech Rep.
Nice pics kay:


----------



## piotr71

@ Bogdymol

Great report. Nice and clean and really well maintained place.



seem said:


> ^^ Great! I was so wondering if there is place like this!
> 
> _I will go there when I will be in Slovakia. So guys, be prepared for pics _


I am back in Poland on the end of this month, so be prepared to see me there  I live not far from that place.


----------



## seem

piotr71 said:


> @ Bogdymol
> 
> Great report. Nice and clean and really well maintained place.
> 
> 
> 
> I am back in Poland on the end of this month, so be prepared to see me there  I live not far from that place.


Well I am also not so far from that place but I won`t be there in next 3 monts at least .


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*De Lutte - Bad Bentheim - NL/D*

The A1-A30 border crossing between the Netherlands and Germany on Germany reunification day. (October 3rd)

1. Border crossing rest area parking.
De Poppe-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2. Trucks, trucks and trucks, mostly from Eastern Europe, as far as Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan.
De Poppe-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3. Euro-vignettes can be purchased in the restaurant. An eurovignette is a truck toll system in the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark and Sweden.
De Poppe-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4. The border pedestrian bridge to rest area Bentheimerwald, which is in Germany.
De Poppe-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5. The border. Note the pavement difference, from rough and bumpy concrete to supersmooth asphalt, in the Netherlands of course.
De Poppe-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6. Looking into Germany.
De Poppe-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7. Looking into the Netherlands.
De Poppe-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8. Autobahn A30
De Poppe-8 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9. The rest area on the left is on German territory, the motorway is Dutch territory.
De Poppe-9 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10. KM 0,0 of Autobahn A30
De Poppe-10 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11. Border from ground level.
De Poppe-11 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12. Pavement change. Before summer 2010, both sides of the border had concrete pavement.
De Poppe-12 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13. Nederland is Dutch for "The Netherlands" and is an entry sign.
De Poppe-13 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14. Motorway forbidden for pedestrians. 
De Poppe-14 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## Verso

^^ I think that sign would be more useful in some EE languages (and English).

As for border crossings, for the last few days there're big traffic jams on the Slovenian-Croatian border due to strike of Slovenian policemen. Waiting times are measured in hours, even for personal cars. I went to northern Croatia yesterday. I was actually thinking of going there over Hungary, but I used one of rare crossings without queue. Just as an example, current waiting time on the crossing between Zagreb and Maribor is 2.5 hours for cars.









_http://www.rtvslo.si/slovenija/policisti-od-torka-mogoca-zaostritev-stavke/240731_


----------



## piotr71

Thanks for the report Chris.

Translation into Polish is quite funny. They probably had some troubles with Polish truckers speaking their mother tongue only.

Do you know whether concrete road (picture 9 on the left) is a regular service road or remaining after older road connecting _Nederland_ with _Deutschland_?


----------



## Interstate275Fla

Chris, the photos of the De Lutte/Bad Bentheim border crossing between The Netherlands and Germany are very impressive! Imagine walking from one country to another unhindered, thanks to Schengen.

On the last photo, there is a sign written in German and in Dutch stating that pedestrians are prohibited on the motorway. My question is, are the following statutes relate to laws in both countries' motor vehicle codes regarding use of the motorway:

StVO Article 18 Abs. 9 (German motor vehicle code)
RVV 1990 Art. 42 (Dutch motor vehicle code)

The reason I ask is that it would be comparable to Section 316.091 of the Florida Statutes (which prohibits use of interstate highways and expressways by pedestrians and bicycles), signage which is posted at every entrance and exit ramp to interstates and toll roads in Florida. By comparison, does The Netherlands and Germany (as well as the rest of Europe) post pedestrian prohibition signs only at their borders or at evey motorway entrance?

I apologize for being a little off topic, but there was a picture that caught my attention. Great photos, by the way!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This is the first sign I've ever seen indicating walking on the motorway is prohibited.


----------



## Barciur

However, there are "triple prohibition" as SSC Poland members call them  on Polish highways. If some Polish member would provide a picture of it, it'd be nice.
Also, in Pennsylvania there are signs "motor vehicles only" at every highway entrance, just thought I'd throw it out there.


----------



## mgk920

Interstate275Fla said:


> Chris, the photos of the De Lutte/Bad Bentheim border crossing between The Netherlands and Germany are very impressive! Imagine walking from one country to another unhindered, thanks to Schengen.
> 
> On the last photo, there is a sign written in German and in Dutch stating that pedestrians are prohibited on the motorway. My question is, are the following statutes relate to laws in both countries' motor vehicle codes regarding use of the motorway:
> 
> StVO Article 18 Abs. 9 (German motor vehicle code)
> RVV 1990 Art. 42 (Dutch motor vehicle code)
> 
> The reason I ask is that it would be comparable to Section 316.091 of the Florida Statutes (which prohibits use of interstate highways and expressways by pedestrians and bicycles), signage which is posted at every entrance and exit ramp to interstates and toll roads in Florida. By comparison, does The Netherlands and Germany (as well as the rest of Europe) post pedestrian prohibition signs only at their borders or at evey motorway entrance?
> 
> I apologize for being a little off topic, but there was a picture that caught my attention. Great photos, by the way!


I assume that the signs that are posted at Autobahn entrances in Germany (my avatar is an animation based on those signs) have that covered - they literally mean "Begin autobahn driving rules" and one of the rules is 'no pedestrians/bicycles".

Interestingly, pedestrians and bicycles ARE allowed on interstates and compatible highways, at least in rural areas, in many USA states, especially in the west. In those instances, the highway usually goes through territory that is so remote and thinly populated that there is often no other convenient available routing for that non-motorized traffic and the highways' motor vehicle traffic is sufficiently light that it presents no undue safety hazard. In those places, pedestrians and bicycles must keep as far to the right as possible - very easy in that normal interstate standards include a full-width paved right shoulder.

IIRC, pedestrians and bicycles are also allowed on the I-79 bridge over the Ohio River in west suburban Pittsburgh, PA - there is no other convenient routing available. The I-94 Saint Croix River bridge (on the Minnesota-Wisconsin state line in the far eastern MStP suburbs) has a separate protected pathway on the bridge, a more common set up. Ditto the George Washington Bridge (I-95 at the New Jersey-New York state line).

Mike


----------



## magm

*Future Expansion of the San Ysidro-Tijuana (USA-MEXICO) Int' Border crossing. *

The number of northbound vehicle inspection lanes will increase from 24 to 34.

Southbound lanes will increase from six to as many as 12.

There will be two pedestrian crossing areas in both directions on either side of Interstate 5. Currently, there is one northbound pedestrian crossing east of I-5, and one southbound crossing that’s west of I-5.

The revamped port of entry will have more buildings for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, a larger primary and secondary vehicle inspection area, and a larger northbound connection and a realigned southbound connection to Mexico’s planned El Chaparral Land Point of Entry facility.

The Mexican side of the project involves moving southbound lanes west of the current crossing and more than doubling their number — to 19.

Officials said by the end of this year, workers will complete two of four bridges connected to the expansion: Three will channel southbound traffic to different parts of Tijuana, while the fourth will feed into the northbound lanes.



















http://www.signonsandiego.com/busy-border/


----------



## ArthurK

piotr71 said:


> Do you know whether concrete road (picture 9 on the left) is a regular service road or remaining after older road connected _Nederland_ with _Deutschland_?


Let's do a little bit exploring in this area...  According to Google Streetview, the road is closed:









This Streetview image shows the situation at the border:









You can see the markings on the concrete under the stairs of the pedestrianbridge (which was constructed post-Schengen). It looks like the road is a remaining of the bordercontrol era; it looks like the Germany-bound traffic had four lanes at the border, with probably customs booths besides each lane. If you look very closely to this Streetview image, your can see a gap in the concrete (now paved with gray stones) where the customs booths for the two center lanes probably were located:









Funny to see they haven't removed those abandoned lanes, which has been done at the other border crossings between The Netherlands and Germany. Maybe the Dutch road authority thinks it's on German soil, although those lanes are just on the Dutch side as they were part of the highway itself; it's not part of the service area which is located in Germany.








*Edit:* You can also see some old concrete pavement north of the highway, probably former Netherlands-bound lanes, now partly re-used as part of a road in the service area. And there's something funny with that Netherlands-bound service road: it is situated in Germany east of the former customs booths, while the pavement and all traffic signs are Dutch (as can be seen on Chris' pictures #6, 8 and 10). It looks like the Dutch road authority has stolen some German soil here! :nono:


----------



## Interstate275Fla

mgk920 said:


> I assume that the signs that are posted at Autobahn entrances in Germany (my avatar is an animation based on those signs) have that covered - they literally mean "Begin autobahn driving rules" and one of the rules is 'no pedestrians/bicycles".
> 
> Interestingly, pedestrians and bicycles ARE allowed on interstates and compatible highways, at least in rural areas, in many USA states, especially in the west. In those instances, the highway usually goes through territory that is so remote and thinly populated that there is often no other convenient available routing for that non-motorized traffic and the highways' motor vehicle traffic is sufficiently light that it presents no undue safety hazard. In those places, pedestrians and bicycles must keep as far to the right as possible - very easy in that normal interstate standards include a full-width paved right shoulder.
> 
> IIRC, pedestrians and bicycles are also allowed on the I-79 bridge over the Ohio River in west suburban Pittsburgh, PA - there is no other convenient routing available. The I-94 Saint Croix River bridge (on the Minnesota-Wisconsin state line in the far eastern MStP suburbs) has a separate protected pathway on the bridge, a more common set up. Ditto the George Washington Bridge (I-95 at the New Jersey-New York state line).
> 
> Mike


By the way, I started a new topic on use of Interstate Highways by other than motor vehicle traffic which can be found here. That way, we can keep on topic here on the International Border Crossings thread.


----------



## koloite

ArthurK said:


> Let's do a little bit exploring in this area...  According to Google Streetview, the road is closed:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny to see they haven't removed those abandoned lanes, which has been done at the other border crossings between The Netherlands and Germany. Maybe the Dutch road authority thinks it's on German soil, although those lanes are just on the Dutch side as they were part of the highway itself; it's not part of the service area which is located in Germany.


The extra lanes on the German side is used during border controls. The small signs on the first picture that 'close' those lanes are removed during border controls. All vehicles are directed towards the service area. Trucks are allowed to continue straight on using these old lanes, while passenger cars are directed to the right into the actual service area. There all suspicious looking cars are stopped and checked, while locals are allowed to pass through without any hassle.


----------



## Kreicherisch

Verso said:


> ^ Ok, here's the rest:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a Slovenian exterritorial road through Italy to reach another part of Slovenia faster. Interestingly, the road even has Slovenian markings and number.


Is it a Slovenian highway 402?


----------



## hofburg

^ yes. only that part is highway-like.  http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sou...2,13.596268&sspn=0.027609,0.0842&ie=UTF8&z=14

driving on that road towards Brda always seemed to me a bit weird. if you live in Nova Gorica, on the west you have Italy right away, but when you go to Brda, it's even more Westward and still Slovenia.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The Italian part also has a different administrative number.


----------



## Verso

Anyway, that road isn't so interesting any more since we're both in Schengen.


----------



## Alqaszar

But it was, because in the past, Italy was a western country, and Yugoslavia was a communist country. If YU had ever entered the Eastern Block, this road would have been closed.


----------



## MrAkumana

After years of discussions and pressure from the EU (that ended up this year with a threat to impose fines of over 10 million euros) customs booths at the French-Spanish border on the motorway AP7-A9 at La Jonquera will be dismantled. Works on that will start *tomorrow*.

It is expected that the works will take 3 months (booths removal, new pavement etc), after that a 90 Km/h speed limit will be set on that area. The different police forces from Spain and France made hughe complains about this (France used to have police 24 hrs a day at the border waving or ramdomly stopping each car, and Spain 12 hrs a day also waving or stopping randomly each vehicle. Cars had to pass in front of the police at 10 km/h generating cues, not what you expect from a schengen frontier). Currently spanish and french police have already left the frontier and set up random checks only at Le Bolou toll (A9) and La Jonquera Toll (AP7).

More info (in catalan language): http://www.aragirona.cat/noticia/38...inacio-de-les-cabines-fronteres-a-la-jonquera


----------



## PLH

Do you know anything more about this 'EU threat'? Does it apply to border crossing in general or just this one? 

I'm asking because they have recently started dismantling the booths in Pomellen (motorway Berlin - Szczecin) and I wonder if that's the reason.


----------



## eucitizen

MrAkumana said:


> After years of discussions and pressure from the EU (that ended up this year with a threat to impose fines of over 10 million euros) customs booths at the French-Spanish border on the motorway AP7-A9 at La Jonquera will be dismantled. Works on that will start *tomorrow*.
> 
> It is expected that the works will take 3 months (booths removal, new pavement etc), after that a 90 Km/h speed limit will be set on that area. The different police forces from Spain and France made hughe complains about this (France used to have police 24 hrs a day at the border waving or ramdomly stopping each car, and Spain 12 hrs a day also waving or stopping randomly each vehicle. Cars had to pass in front of the police at 10 km/h generating cues, not what you expect from a schengen frontier). Currently spanish and french police have already left the frontier and set up random checks only at Le Bolou toll (A9) and La Jonquera Toll (AP7).
> 
> More info (in catalan language): http://www.aragirona.cat/noticia/38...inacio-de-les-cabines-fronteres-a-la-jonquera


Finally, congratulations  I hope that someone can post here some pictures as soon as it will be completely dismantled.
Well the Schengen treaty claims that you can'ty have even random checks at the borders but away from it. Unfortunately many member countries vilate this and moreover having police at the border 24h and 12h a day isn't random checks.At last tere must be granted fluet crossing of the border , so booths and a speed limits of 10km/h isnt a fluent passage.
Probably f the EU would fund the removal of tthe former border infrastructure there would be no more booths or other kind of obstacles.
I am wondering if these control of french and spanish police made some results in fighting the criminality, or it is just a way to assure own citizens that they do something to protect them.


----------



## FabriFlorence

MrAkumana said:


> After years of discussions and pressure from the EU (that ended up this year with a threat to impose fines of over 10 million euros) customs booths at the French-Spanish border on the motorway AP7-A9 at La Jonquera will be dismantled. Works on that will start *tomorrow*.
> 
> It is expected that the works will take 3 months (booths removal, new pavement etc), after that a 90 Km/h speed limit will be set on that area. The different police forces from Spain and France made hughe complains about this (France used to have police 24 hrs a day at the border waving or ramdomly stopping each car, and Spain 12 hrs a day also waving or stopping randomly each vehicle. Cars had to pass in front of the police at 10 km/h generating cues, not what you expect from a schengen frontier). Currently spanish and french police have already left the frontier and set up random checks only at Le Bolou toll (A9) and La Jonquera Toll (AP7).
> 
> More info (in catalan language): http://www.aragirona.cat/noticia/38...inacio-de-les-cabines-fronteres-a-la-jonquera


Finally! I remember when I went to Spain with a Eurolines Bus 1 year ago, I spend more than 2 hours at La Jonquera border because of a double police control, before the French Gendarmerie at the border and than Spanish Guardia Civil immediately after it!


----------



## Verso

Indonesia - Papua New Guinea:









_http://www.panoramio.com/photo/10218825 by Agus Simo_









_http://www.panoramio.com/photo/9955088 by lakotani_









_http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20672857 by dbunshin_

^^ What's that language on the right? Simple English?


----------



## abdeka

N81 Souk Ahras, Algeria

Algeria/Tunisia border


----------



## nenea_hartia

^ There is no border checking between Algeria and Tunisia?


----------



## abdeka

nenea_hartia said:


> ^ There is no border checking between Algeria and Tunisia?


Yes there is a checkpoint. Just a few kilometers before...


----------



## mapman:cz

Verso said:


> Indonesia - Papua New Guinea:
> 
> ^^ What's that language on the right? Simple English?


Yeah, in some way  It's Tok Pisin, official language in Papua Niugini


----------



## Alqaszar

Tok Pisin, or "Talk Pidgin", a derivation from the English language and one of the reminders that England once owned a global empire.

In other words, some countries kept a kind of English as their language, unlike Australia or the USA who changed their language into something uncomprehensible...


----------



## chumpon

Malaysian - Thailand border in Betong checkpoint


----------



## chumpon

Malaysian - Thailand border


----------



## seem

Slovak-Polish border

_in Tatras_


----------



## eucitizen

Seem, if I am not wrong, the second picture regards the border on Dunajec river, in the Pieninsky national park.


----------



## seem

^^ Yes, sorry for my are these hills still Tatras. :nuts:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

FabriFlorence said:


> Finally! I remember when I went to Spain with a Eurolines Bus 1 year ago, I spend more than 2 hours at La Jonquera border because of a double police control, before the French Gendarmerie at the border and than Spanish Guardia Civil immediately after it!


Is that the crossing with the toll to leave and enter each country? If it is, in 2004 it took me 2 or 3 hours to cross it.


----------



## CNGL

mapman:cz said:


> Yeah, in some way  It's Tok Pisin, official language in Papua Niugini


I thought it was literal English, like if a Spanish with no idea of English had written it :lol:


----------



## Palance

The border between Reusel (NL, N284) and Arendonk (BE, N139). At the former policestation a new hotel is built at the border. There was a check for people entering the Netherlands (since I drove to Belgium I wasn't checked).

Location


----------



## aliesperet

PLH said:


> Do you know anything more about this 'EU threat'? Does it apply to border crossing in general or just this one?
> 
> I'm asking because they have recently started dismantling the booths in Pomellen (motorway Berlin - Szczecin) and I wonder if that's the reason.


It is due to the Schengen Agreement , which means that all Schengen residents are allowed to travel without a passport across the countries that participate in the pact.


----------



## MrAkumana

PLH said:


> Do you know anything more about this 'EU threat'? Does it apply to border crossing in general or just this one?
> 
> I'm asking because they have recently started dismantling the booths in Pomellen (motorway Berlin - Szczecin) and I wonder if that's the reason.





aliesperet said:


> It is due to the Schengen Agreement , which means that all Schengen residents are allowed to travel without a passport across the countries that participate in the pact.


He is not making such an obvious question.. He is actually asking about the dismantling of booths at the borders, since a lot of all border crossings on schengen states still keep the booths on the motorways and highways. Most of them are empty all the time and abandoned, but still there. However, on some specific cases, the booths are not only still there but still frequently used by police forces to perform random checks way too often.

After the aproval of the schengen code of frontiers on 2006 the EU has been putting more pressure on member countries to remove all booths on all roads. Since there are hundreds of abandoned booths across Europe to be dismantled (which has a hughe cost of money) they are focusing on forcing the removal on the motorway border crossings and/or where local police forces seem to be making too many "random checks" and thus creating the psicological idea of a border still present and also damaging the fluidity on the roads with these checks. On a secondary road the presence of an abandoned booth doesn't make much problems and you keep the speed steady. But hughe booths on motorways along speed signs of 10 km/h as maximun DO complicate the driving and slow down the traffic generating cues. Even worst is on some motorway border crossings where there are continuous "random checks" at the booths...


----------



## eucitizen

Well afterall Schengen treaty came into force in 1996 and in few countries and slowly enlarged till now. Only 14 years and the border crossing infrastructure existied for more longer and most of them were very expensive.
Anyway The best performing countries in removing the border infrastructure are Germany, Austria, Italy, the Netherlands and Portugal. 
Poland is the best performer among the newest members, then Czech rep. 
Slovakia is removing very slowly mainly due to the fact that there are some unresolved dispute who should have the property of thouse buildings, then lack of money. Some borders crossing infrastructure was, however, removed. In any case Slovakia removed the worst obstacles for smooth crossing, except for the border crossing with Hungary, where they can only remove the whole infrastructure. But it costs money. 
I have no idea what are doing the other newest members, afaik Hungary had poor performance. Anyway forumers from these countries can inform us better.


----------



## CNGL

Verso said:


> Snežnik (1,796 m) - Slovenia, behind the first yellow line - Croatia, behind the second yellow line - Bosnia.


Montalt (596 m) - Spain, behind the yellow line - France


----------



## BND

^^ I think it's the other way round, the built up side is Mexico, and the walls, fences and searchlights are in the US...


----------



## seem

What about this? :nuts:

*Haiti/Dominican Republic
*


----------



## crazyalex

Haiti has more black people and few trees

Dominican Republic has few black people and more tree :lol:


----------



## Proof Sheet

DanielFigFoz said:


> Thank you for all your posts piotr!


I agree totally. If you have anymore it would be great to see them. Google Street View contains quite a few.

The Belgian/NL border is fascinating in how open it is and by the sheer number of twists and turns it does.

This website has photos of most of the BE/NL border cairns (grenspaal)

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/view?uname=mclknight&cuname=mclknight&tags=grenspaal#

Does anybody know when any border buildings were removed at the various crossings.


----------



## diablo234

Correction: 



crazyalex said:


> Hi sorry topic
> 
> I think this pretty funny
> "Tijuana border"
> Left *USA*, Right *Mexico*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Left *Mexico*, Right *USA*


----------



## diablo234

Northwest Angle is one of the few unguarded border crossings in the U.S. since it is essentially cut off from the US and the fact that it is mostly unpopulated. To check in with customs you have to enter a phone booth and call either US or Canada Customs.


----------



## ArthurK

*Nieuw Statenzijl*

The border between Germany and The Netherlands at _Nieuw Statenzijl_.










Nieuw Statenzijl (litterally: New State's Sluice) is very small village at the border with approximately 5 houses. The _Westerwoldse Aa_ river looks like a border river, but both banks are Dutch.


Nieuw Statenzijl 1 by Arthur Kamminga, on Flickr.
The lock and pumps are just on the Dutch side of the border.


Nieuw Statenzijl 2 by Arthur Kamminga, on Flickr.
The river's mouth into the Dollart Bay.


Westerwoldse Aa by Arthur Kamminga, on Flickr.
Left of the dike is Germany. You can alway recognise the Dutch-German border by the windmills, which the Germans have put along the border almost anywhere. The general Dutch opinion is that they are spoiling our landscape. 


Grens Nieuw Statenzijl 1 by Arthur Kamminga, on Flickr.
The border. Only cyclists and pedestrians can cross the border here. When the weather is nice, German border police might be encountered. I once got a warning when I forgot my passport and two border police officers suddenly popped out of that wooden shelter. 


Grens Nieuw Statenzijl 2 by Arthur Kamminga, on Flickr.
The border is cleary visible when standing on top of the dike. Left is The Netherlands, right is Germany. On the very left, you see a Birdwatching Cabin.


Grens Nieuw Statenzijl 3 by Arthur Kamminga, on Flickr.
You can see industrial buildings in Emden. It's clear Emden is in Germany, but both countries have different opinions about the location of the border in the Dollart and Ems. Dutch maps show the border just off the German coast, German maps show it just off the Dutch coast. :lol:


Grens Nieuw Statenzijl 4 by Arthur Kamminga, on Flickr.
This is actually the northernmost bordercrossing between both countries. Borderstone 203-II is next to the fence.


----------



## mgk920

seem said:


> What about this? :nuts:
> 
> *Haiti/Dominican Republic
> *


(left *Haiti*/right *República Domínica* - The tree line is the border)

That border, is, IMHO, one the most stark contrasts between any two countries anywhere on the planet, much more so than the Mexico-USA border. I am not aware of any legal land crossings between them.

Mike


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## chumpon

Malaysia Thailand


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## chumpon

Unique checkpoint


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## chumpon

Malaysia - Thailand @ Dannok


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## piotr71

Border crossing alongside E34. Belgium-The Netherlands.

http://maps.google.pl/?ie=UTF8&ll=51.315834,5.219364&spn=0.020895,0.066047&t=h&z=15




















Looking towards The Netherland.


















Abandoned border booth.




































We are in The Netherlands.



























3 older pics taken on the way back.


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## Cpt.Iglo

@ArthurK: Great pics! I love the area.

Switzerland - Germany (Basel): 




















Switzerland - France (Geneva):


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## Penn's Woods

crazyalex said:


> Hi sorry topic
> 
> I think this pretty funny
> "Tijuana border"
> Left Mexico, Right USA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Left USA, Right Mexico


You sure you don't have the countries reversed? Tijuana, on the Mexican side, is a very dense city; the U.S. side of the border's less urban (central San Diego is some distance north).

Check out Google Maps: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=32.537841,-117.077866&spn=0.085093,0.132008&z=13

EDIT: I see someone's already addressed this. Would delete this if I could figure out how....


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## ScraperDude

seem said:


> What about this? :nuts:
> 
> *Haiti/Dominican Republic
> *


The deforestation on the Hatian side is quite tragic. Mostly done for charcoal for cooking


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## LMB

mgk920 said:


> (left *Haiti*/right *República Domínica* - The tree line is the border)
> 
> That border, is, IMHO, one the most stark contrasts between any two countries anywhere on the planet, much more so than the Mexico-USA border. I am not aware of any legal land crossings between them.
> 
> Mike


Please elaborate. I know little of either.


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## LMB

Barciur said:


> how is it easier?


Language?


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## CairnsTony

ScraperDude said:


> The deforestation on the Hatian side is quite tragic. Mostly done for charcoal for cooking


That picture is at least 20 years old. I've seen it before in a book I have from the 1980s. God knows what the situation is like now...


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## ChrisZwolle

Haiti - Dominican Rep.









http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_in_Haiti


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## Verso

That's beyond stupid.


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## tbh444

Point Roberts - another US exclave. Must be strange to live in that last house...

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en...6WOE7_oOT404v0q9lycLiA&cbp=12,168.07,,0,16.65


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## Verso

Back to exciting European borders. Claimed by Slovenia, administered by Croatia (sometimes also by Slovenia ).









_http://www.radiokrka.com/Novice/Novica/tabid/90/selectmoduleid/368/ArticleID/97368/Default.aspx_

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...62872,13.620408&spn=0.00136,0.002411&t=h&z=19


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## WonderlandPark

To Penns Woods photos of the Mexico Border: your photos are exactly opposite:

on the top photo, Mexico is on the right side, USA on the left side

on the bottom photo, Mexico is on the left side, USA on the right side


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## Penn's Woods

^^
That's not me - I was pointing that out.


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## mgk920

LMB said:


> Please elaborate. I know little of either.


Haiti is about as bottom of the barrel as you can get on the wealth/economic activity scale and the Dominican Republic is very midrange. Haiti is grinding poverty and DR, although certainly not rich, is much less bad off.

The USA and Mexico are very different on that scale, too, but the differences are not to the extent of those between Haiti and DR, and the differences are narrowing.

Mike


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## Alex Trst

Verso said:


> Back to exciting European borders. Claimed by Slovenia, administered by Croatia (sometimes also by Slovenia ).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _http://www.radiokrka.com/Novice/Novica/tabid/90/selectmoduleid/368/ArticleID/97368/Default.aspx_
> 
> http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...62872,13.620408&spn=0.00136,0.002411&t=h&z=19


Wasn't this situation solved with the recent agreements between Slovenia and Croatia? Who's right? I see the house is beyond Dragonja river, although it should be Slovenia, according to Google maps.


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## Verso

Alex Trst said:


> Wasn't this situation solved with the recent agreements between Slovenia and Croatia?


Not yet, just an agreement was reached to solve the border with an arbitration. This includes maritime border in the Gulf of Piran.



Alex Trst said:


> Who's right?


We'll see.



Alex Trst said:


> I see the house is beyond Dragonja river, although it should be Slovenia, according to Google maps.


Google is on our side.  Anyway, I just wanted to spice up presumably boring European borders.


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## brisavoine

The border checkpoint on the Franco-Brazilian border is being built as we speak right now. It will be located on the French side of the Oyapock River. It is the first Franco-Brazilian border checkpoint ever built. Workers are working non-stop on the checkpoint, the access road, and the international bridge itself to open everything in December, just before the end of Lula's presidency, because Lula wants to inaugurate the bridge with Sarkozy before he leaves the presidency. Here are the latest pictures of the checkpoint taken 10 days ago. :cheers:


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## brisavoine

The French road authorities started to put the upper layer of pavement on the access road to the international bridge last week. Here are the pictures taken last week.


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## nenea_hartia

^^ Great pics.:cheers:


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## bogdymol

brisavoine said:


> The border checkpoint on the Franco-Brazilian border is being built as we speak right now. It will be located on the French side of the Oyapock River. *It is the first Franco-Brazilian border checkpoint ever built.* Workers are working non-stop on the checkpoint, the access road, and the international bridge itself to open everything in December, just before the end of Lula's presidency, because Lula wants to inaugurate the bridge with Sarkozy before he leaves the presidency. Here are the latest pictures of the checkpoint taken 10 days ago. :cheers:


And how were the people crossing the border between this two countries before?

PS: great pics!


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## brisavoine

There was no road, so no border crossing.


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## ChrisZwolle

A ferry could also be a border crossing. There have to be customs somewhere, otherwise it could lead to legalized uncontrolled immigration.


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## DanielFigFoz

I think that I saw pics somewhere of customs on both sides and a lot of checkpoints between the border and Cayenne.



ChrisZwolle said:


> A ferry could also be a border crossing. There have to be customs somewhere, otherwise it could lead to legalized uncontrolled immigration.


Well, if it wasn't for uncontrolled immigration, all of humanity would live in the same place.


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## Barciur

LMB said:


> Language?


Well, yes, that is an obvious reason but making the EU a federal republic wouldn't fix that lol.


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> A ferry could also be a border crossing. There have to be customs somewhere, otherwise it could lead to legalized uncontrolled immigration.


There was no ferry. There were mobile customs checks I believe, but no border post/border checkpoing.

The border between France and Brazil is the longest French land border, and it is the least guarded. There is lots of uncontrolled immigration going on. The French Indians in the jungle complain a lot about it. It is estimated there are between 20,000 and 40,000 illegal garimpeiros digging gold in the jungles deep inside French Guiana, polluting the rivers with mercury and other toxic products which end up in the fishes that the Indians eat. There's lots of back and forth between Brazil and French Guiana, and the Indians are in the middle of this, complaining about the lack of policing by the French state. Recently the Indians have started to attack some garimpeiros because they feel the French army does too little to protect them.


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## CNGL

I though that French Guiana was an independent country until I saw it on some France maps.


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## ChrisZwolle

Guyana and Suriname became independent though. The British and Spanish recognized the independence of many former territories around the Caribbean basin, but the French didn't as much.


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## Alex Trst

CNGL said:


> I though that French Guiana was an independent country until I saw it on some France maps.


It also appears on Euro banknotes, bottom-left, the first right after the "EURO" caption.


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## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> The British and Spanish recognized the independence of many former territories around the Caribbean basin, but the French didn't as much.


Neither did the Dutch, apart from Suriname. 


Alex Trst said:


> It also appears on Euro banknotes, bottom-left, the first right after the "EURO" caption.


It's not at real scale though. 

The real scale is this:


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## chumpon

NPS/Sharon Collyer

The former Boquillas crossing remains closed[/p]Crossings Remain Closed[p=30, 2, left] "As a result of a 2002 US Customs and Border Protection decision, there are NO authorized crossings in Big Bend National Park. Crossing at Boquillas, Santa Elena, or other locations along the Rio Grande is prohibited. The closest legal ports of entry are Del Rio and Presidio, Texas.

The U.S. Attorney’s Office has indicated that it will prosecute any criminal violations regarding any illegal crossings. If you re-enter the United States at any point within Big Bend National Park, you may be liable for a fine of not more than $5,000 or imprisonment for up to one year, or both. "

Big Bend National Park Website

More information:[p=30, 2, left]The U.S. Border Patrol also mans checkpoints on the highways leading to Big Bend National Park. The National Park Service has provided information on border crossings, legalities and how both U.S. citizens and foreign nationals can avoid trouble.

[url=http://www.nps.gov/bibe/planyourvisit/border_travel.htm]Click here for the "Visiting a Border Area" section of the Big Bend National Park website.


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## chumpon

Chief Mountain border crossing, Waterson-Glacier International Peace Park, Alberta/Montana


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## chumpon

Lithuania/Belarus Border Crossing - Krakunai


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## chumpon

between Georgia and Russia


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## chumpon

1989: The Berlin Wall, Before and After	

As I said here, "perhaps the best monuments to the victory of freedom in Berlin are those things that are no longer there: The border crossing checkpoints … where for 28 years traffic was blocked and one part of a city was kept from seeing the other part."

Here are two pictures. The first I took of the border crossing checkpoint at Heinrich-Heine-Strasse in May of 1982: 

The second I took of the same place on Heinrich-Heine-Strasse in May of this year:


----------



## chumpon




----------



## chumpon




----------



## seem

*panoramio.com
*
*Salka (Slovakia) - Letkés (Hungary)*

_bridge above river Ipeľ/Ipoly_










_river Ipeľ/Ipoly_










_surrounding of villages
_









*Medveďov (SR) - Vámosszabadi (H)*














































*Tachty (SR) - Cered (H)*


_Slovakia_


----------



## Fuzzy Llama

*Schaanwald (FL) - Feldkirch (A) *
year 2009 (i.e. before Liechtenstein entered Shengen)

Customs of Liechtenstein...









And Austrian ones:









The funny thing is that the border control of Liechtenstein are actually made by the Swiss (Liechtenstein doesn't have its own Customs Office)


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## Bad_Hafen

chumpon said:


> Lithuania/Belarus Border Crossing - Krakunai


Belarus better roads.


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## Bad_Hafen

I will try to present you few close border crossings between Croatia and BiH. They are very close one to another. Northern Bosnian border with Croatia is all the way river Sava and than later Una. 

1st border crossing is *Gradiska *and it is the only significant crossing out of these taht will be presented. 

Croatia and Bosnia for more than 100 years were one country so crossings between those two are numerous and very often in the city centres, because the towns were built like it is the same city. Some towns like Gradiska is suffering because the border crossing is dividing town in two and is complicating every day life of the citizens. 

*Map* A on the Map


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## Verso

Fuzzy Llama said:


> *Schaanwald (FL) - Feldkirch (A) *
> year 2009 (i.e. before Liechtenstein entered Shengen)


Liechtenstein isn't yet in Schengen, only Switzerland entered it last year, so control on the Austrian border remains (but you can avoid it over Switzerland :lol.


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## Fuzzy Llama

^^
Oh, I thought they joined already.


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## piotr71

*Germany-The Netherlands(Roermond)*


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## ChrisZwolle

That Dutch N280 was once planned as A68, a motorway from A2 to the German border. Only a small section west of Roermond was built as a motorway. The N280 was upgraded recently to a 2x2 expressway between Roermond and the German border, and there are plans to upgrade the rest of N280 to an expressway as well.


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## DanielFigFoz

I've been on that road . But that slip just after the border wasn't there.


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## piotr71

More N280 can be seen here(from post 586):
*http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=66889615#post66889615*
Pictures taken several days ago.


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## CNGL

Verso said:


> *Liechtenstein isn't yet in Schengen*, only Switzerland entered it last year, so control on the Austrian border remains (but you can avoid it over Switzerland :lol.


Like Andorra . But if you are a Schengen area citizen you can enter Andorra without passport.


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## Bad_Hafen

*B* on the map


Border *Croatia-BiH*
Crossing Jasenovac-Donja Gradina 
Crossing is at the mound of two rivers Sava and Una. 

location



There are two bridges:

over *Sava*



and *Una*



The bridge in reconstruction



*Sava *river



*Bosnian *side


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## Bad_Hafen

*C* on the map


15 kilometer from Jasenovac and Gradina is anoher crossing dividing small town of *Kozarska Dubica* (BiH) and Croatian village *Hrvatska Dubica* (HR)

location

Bridge and river *Una*, border 










bridge looking toward Croatia


Croatian control










Welcome to Hrvatska Dubica



Bosnian control










Welcome to Republika Srpska


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## Bad_Hafen

*D*


Further upstream river Una, not far away from is another border crossing between Croatia and BiH *Kostajnica - Hrvatska Kostajnica*. Two small towns now in 2 states divided by river Una. 

location

Panorama and the *bridge*



from above looking at Bosnia. 










*crossing*



*River *between


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## Bad_Hafen

Last but nost least *E
*

Another insignificant border crossing dividing two towns *Novi Grad (BiH) and Dvor (Croatia)*. 
River Una divides these two towns and crossing is inside the towns like in other cases. 
This border crossing is not far away from the one in Dubica. 

location

Bridge and Una 

looking to Bosnia



Croatia


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## Alex Trst

Very interesting, thanks!

I recognized the building in one of the last pictures, and I thought, that's in Bosanski Novi, so I discovered it is also called Novi Grad.

I hope it will be renovated, as it is very nice.


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## erxgli

Reynosa-Hidalgo Int'l bridge (Tamaulipas, Mexico-Texas USA)


Hidalgo Texas
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/768/254459745534660a0a31.jpg


To Reynosa Mexico
http://img237.imageshack.us/f/puenteinternacionalreyn.jpg/


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## LMB

A request to NA posters: I'd be happy to see more US-Canada border structures. I'm also curious of your experiences, how has it changed since the 9/11 panic.


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## mgk920

LMB said:


> A request to NA posters: I'd be happy to see more US-Canada border structures. I'm also curious of your experiences, how has it changed since the 9/11 panic.


I don't have any images of the checkpoints handy, but now one must show a passport (or a similar document) in each direction whereas before, Canada and USA citizens only had to (usually) answer a few quick questions.

The checkpoints on the USA side have also been beefed up physically (both on the Canada and Mexico borders), one visible change is that the next car in line is stopped well back from the car that is at the booth.

I have not left the USA since a quick trip into Canada back in 1998.

Mike


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## zsimi80

Hungary-Slovakia 

Towns: Füzér-Slanec (Nagyszalánc)

Nagy-Milic mountain 895m










MO=Magyarország (Hungary)

Source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/38879475


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## seem

zsimi80 said:


> Hungary-Slovakia
> 
> Towns: Füzér-Slanec (Nagyszalánc)
> 
> Nagy-Milic mountain 895m


Nearly high as Kékes. :nuts:


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## Penn's Woods

mgk920 said:


> I don't have any images of the checkpoints handy, but now one must show a passport (or a similar document) in each direction whereas before, Canada and USA citizens only had to (usually) answer a few quick questions.
> 
> The checkpoints on the USA side have also been beefed up physically (both on the Canada and Mexico borders), one visible change is that the next car in line is stopped well back from the car that is at the booth.
> 
> I have not left the USA since a quick trip into Canada back in 1998.
> 
> Mike


My brother was in Montreal (and had gone there by car) on 9/11; he was stuck there for a few days because the border was closed. But I can think of way worse places than Montreal to be stuck in. (That's ironic understatement; Montreal's one of my favorite places in the world. Except in the winter.)


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## chumpon




----------



## seem

*Border in the Old town of Bratislava *

btw, zsimi80 no offence about Kekés


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## zsimi80

seem said:


> *Border in the Old town of Bratislava *
> 
> btw, zsimi80 no offence about Kekés



It is Kékes not Kekés  no offence 


What is this border video?


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## seem

zsimi80 said:


> It is Kékes not Kekés  no offence
> 
> 
> What is this border video?


Yeah, I always put ´ in Hungarian words wrong. So what I will do from now is that I will just change it every time from "good" to "wrong". 

It was as a advert for that film - 

there is also a bit in Hungarian 

lol, last scene looks like in middle east


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## SeanT

sorry, off topic!
.....e sounds like cAt 
.....é sounds like sAve
but of course you have to hear the world before you can make a difference:lol:


----------



## zsimi80

seem said:


> Yeah, I always put ´ in Hungarian words wrong. So what I will do from now is that I will just change it every time from "good" to "wrong".
> 
> It was as a advert for that film -
> 
> there is also a bit in Hungarian
> 
> lol, last scene looks like in middle east


Did you know? The two parts of the village has a total population of about 840 people, almost exclusively (+95%) ethnic Hungarians.


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## Bad_Hafen

Can this film be downloaded somewhere?


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## seem

zsimi80 said:


> Did you know? The two parts of the village has a total population of about 840 people, almost exclusively (+95%) ethnic Hungarians.


I did not.

That story is so sad. Governments of UA and SR might do a decision quickly. I have never heard if they would like to deal with it. People might vote in village to choose in which state their village will be. I think they will choose Slovakia, lol.

Btw, a bit OT - do you speak Polish?


----------



## MrAkumana

Bad_Hafen said:


> Can this film be downloaded somewhere?


As any flv it can be dowloaded from Youtube using special applications such as Real Player Downloader.

And in order to be on topic, a recent picture of the dismantling of the spanish-french border checkpoint at AP7-A9 (from newspaper El Punt). Works should be finished by December as expected:


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## PLH

Too bad it took almost 16 years to do this hno:



seem said:


> Governments of UA and SR might do a decision quickly. I have never heard if they would like to deal with it.


It's really weird there is no agreement between Slovakia and Ukraine stating that people living close to the border can cross it without a visa.

Poland and Ukraine signed similiar one last year. All you need is a document called "permission"


----------



## ScraperDude

LMB said:


> A request to NA posters: I'd be happy to see more US-Canada border structures. I'm also curious of your experiences, how has it changed since the 9/11 panic.


As MGK920 stated we have to now provied a passport. I have a passport card with an RF chip good for North America only and can be used at land crossings and Seaports that require customs. I can not use it for air travel at all. Heres a link with info and a pic of the card. http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppt_card/ppt_card_3926.html

The border crossings into Canada have longer waits depending on the location of the crossing. The border agents have sticks up their asses and ask the most ridiculous questions. 
Last year at the Fort Erie, Ontario crossing the border agent asked me and my friends why we were entering Canada. We of course said vacation and to enjoy some Toronto nightlife. The border bitch in return snaps back and says "What, you don't have bars where you're from?" Seriously?? 
It was at that point I wanted to just grab a handful of her hair and hit the gas pedal, yell some tribal call and drive off into Canada. 

I know that is nothing compared to some EU border crossings but after being used to traveling so freely between here and Canada it's an adjustment to be made.


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## Bad_Hafen

seem said:


> I did not.
> 
> That story is so sad. Governments of UA and SR might do a decision quickly. I have never heard if they would like to deal with it. People might vote in village to choose in which state their village will be. I think they will choose Slovakia, lol.
> 
> Btw, a bit OT - do you speak Polish?


the village can stay where it is but they should allow ppl to visit each others with an ID


----------



## Bad_Hafen

MrAkumana said:


> As any flv it can be dowloaded from Youtube using special applications such as Real Player Downloader.


i dont want 1min trailer but entire film.


----------



## ScraperDude

Bad_Hafen said:


> the village can stay where it is but they should allow ppl to visit each others with an ID


I have seen the trailer for this and want to watch the full legnth film as well. I think it would be a great documentary to watch. Maybe once I watch the movie I can understand why the border was drawn through the middle and not around it. From what I've read the people of both villages have had their nationality changed numerous times (not their choice of course) while living in the same place their whole life. hno:


----------



## Alex Trst

That village was part of Austria-Hungary until 1918 (in the Hungarian Kingdom for centuries), then Czechoslovakia and then Ukraine (part of the USSR until 1991).


----------



## ScraperDude

Alex Trst said:


> That village was part of Austria-Hungary until 1918 (in the Hungarian Kingdom for centuries), then Czechoslovakia and then Ukraine (part of the USSR until 1991).


Not being familiar with Borders. Especially border changes, who decides where to drawn the line through these villages and do they not understand they are dividing communities or do they not care? 
Isn't there a similar situation on the LT/BY border with Norviliškės?


----------



## WB2010

This photo impressed and touched me a lot. It shows people praying together at the Lithuanian-Bielorussian border. They are Polish and are praying in Polish. Before 1939 both sides of the border belonged to Poland. Now it is the border of the NATO and the European Union.


----------



## seem

^^ It is so crazy how Polish border was changing all the time. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Polish_Republic


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## Bad_Hafen

WB2010 said:


> This photo impressed and touched me a lot. It shows people praying together at the Lithuanian-Bielorussian border. They are Polish and are praying in Polish. Before 1939 both sides of the border belonged to Poland. *Now it is the border of the NATO and the European Union.*


I didn´t know that NATO borders with EU


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## CNGL

^^ No, it's the same border. EU countries are NATO countries, as far as I know...


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## DanielFigFoz

^^ Not all EU countries are NATO countries:










It's nearly though.


----------



## Djurizmo

ScraperDude said:


> ...From what I've read the people of both villages have had their nationality changed numerous times (not their choice of course) while living in the same place their whole life. hno:


The similar thing is in Serbia. I was born in Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia and since then I was living in Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Serbia and Montenegro and in Republic of Serbia, and I actually changed only one apartament, like 1 km from each other... :nuts:


----------



## Bad_Hafen

and my grandfather

Kingdom of SHS
Kingdom Yugoslavia
NDH
FNRJ
SFRJ
SR BiH
RS
BiH
and never changed his house


----------



## ScraperDude

What happens in the instance when a country divides or changes name or a territory is handed to another country? Do they document the residents and issue new indentity papers/cards? So many questions I have because I've never really given it thought on the process. 
Borders are static in North America so I couldn't imagine living in the USA one day and wake up the next and there is a border next to my home and I am no longer a US citizen but a resident of another country.


----------



## bozata90

ScraperDude said:


> What happens in the instance when a country divides or changes name or a territory is handed to another country? Do they document the residents and issue new indentity papers/cards? So many questions I have because I've never really given it thought on the process.
> Borders are static in North America so I couldn't imagine living in the USA one day and wake up the next and there is a border next to my home and I am no longer a US citizen but a resident of another country.


There are two opportunities according to international law: 
- all the population that lives in the territory of the new state (the state that acquired the land) remains in this state and all of the people became its citizens - this is called TRANSFER;
- the population in the new state has the right to choose - either to remain where they are and to become citizens of the new state, or to retain their citizenship and to emigrate to their old country - this is called OPTION. In this case the people that changed their citizenship can keep their old citizenship or not (this has to be dealt with an international treaty).

Both were practices after the First world war - I do not know what is the specific case here.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A new border crossing between Poland and Russia commenced operations today. It's the Grzechotki border crossing, at the end of the S22 1x2 expressway, which was completed in 2008.


----------



## Bad_Hafen

yes you get new documents because your state changed or disappeared.


----------



## ScraperDude

ChrisZwolle said:


> A new border crossing between Poland and Russia commenced operations today. It's the Grzechotki border crossing, at the end of the S22 1x2 expressway, which was completed in 2008.


What does this connect to on the Russian side? I've been checking the maps and it looks like the S22 being a new road connects to what we call here a "trunk road" or township road. 
I think I read once there was supposed to be a motorway built from Kaliningrad to this crossing. Has it been built and google earth image is old or is it planned to be built to connect with S22 in the future?


----------



## PLH

It was build in half-profile all way long down to Kaliningrad. As for the time being, Polish section is grade separated 1x2, while Russian one 1x2 without grade separated interchanges( because many viaducts were demolished after WW2:nuts


----------



## Warsaw spectator

ScraperDude said:


> What does this connect to on the Russian side? I've been checking the maps and it looks like the S22 being a new road connects to what we call here a "trunk road" or township road.
> I think I read once there was supposed to be a motorway built from Kaliningrad to this crossing. Has it been built and google earth image is old or is it planned to be built to connect with S22 in the future?


At one of the russian site it is marked as T-83:

road Elbąg - Калинингра́д at yandex.ru

EDIT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_route_E28


----------



## WB2010

This is the newest border crossing between Poland and Russia. I personally doubt if it is necessary - the Kaliningrad Oblast is very tiny (less than 1 million inhabitants) and economically backward and this border crossing will never be used for transit between Poland and the Baltic states as Russia is not (and will never be) a member of NATO and the UE.


----------



## Bad_Hafen

^^I dont know what is with people and NATO, what NATO has to do with border crossings? 

And knowing polish and Russian bureaucracy i think the crossing is just perfect and fits needs.


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

Bad_Hafen said:


> ^^I dont know what is with people and NATO, what NATO has to do with border crossings?


His lack of understanding what is NATO and what is EU and how they are related (or not). Some people throw words in just to look smarter... 



> And knowing polish and Russian bureaucracy i think the crossing is just perfect and fits needs.


Knowing Russian bureaucracy, I would say that there will still be long lines at the border, no matter how fancy or large the border crossing is :nuts: As for the WB's statement that the Kaliningrad region is small, backward and less populated, I disagree. It may be small, but Kaliningrad residents are very mobile (due to their location, I guess), so I expect to see this border crossing being very busy. I am from there myself


----------



## Usamljeni Hashishar

Bad_Hafen said:


> and my grandfather
> 
> Kingdom of SHS
> Kingdom Yugoslavia
> NDH
> FNRJ
> SFRJ
> SR BiH
> RS
> BiH
> and never changed his house



my grandpa was born in 1908 so Bosnia was still part of Austria-Hungary. & then add all of the above. He died in 1993 b4 he had a chance to move to USA with the rest of his family.


----------



## seem

*Nowadays- Slovakia*






















































1000 - Uhorsko / Hungarian kingdom 
1918 - Republic of Czechoslovakia *
1920 - Czechoslovak Republic (ČSR), or Czechoslovakia * - these two are called the first CSR
1938 - Slovenský štát (Slovak (clerofascist ) state without southern regions)
1945 - Czechoslovakia (without Carpathian Ruthenia)
1960 - Czechoslovak Socialist Republic (ČSSR)
1990 - Czechoslovak Federative Republic (Czech version) and Czecho-Slovak Federative Republic (Slovak version).
1993 - The Czech Republic and the Slovak Republic. Two different countries.

It is even more complicated but let it be


----------



## Bad_Hafen

^^that is not complicated it is the same thing but variation.


----------



## brisavoine

Some interesting border changes between France and Italy. Probably most people here didn't know it, but in 1947 France annexed several hundred km² of Italian land as a compensation for Mussolini's invasion of France in 1940, including several villages that were Italian before 1947. As a result the Franco-Italian border changed on several points between the Mediterranean and Savoy.

Here is one example between Menton and Ventimiglia on the French and Italian Riviera where the inland border was pushed 4 km into formerly Italian territory. The border between France (north) and Italy (south) before 1947 was at point A, and then in 1947 it was pushed to point B.










This is where the border was located before 1947 (point A):









The building on the roadside by the old border still bears the inscription "Caserne des douanes" ("Customs barracks"):









We're now driving in what was fully Italian territory before 1947. The building above the road in the background is the train station of the Italian village of Piena (now the French village of Piène-Basse):









Across the annexed area towards the new border. The Italian village of Libri was annexed in 1947 and has now become the French village of Libre:









Still driving towards the new border. No doubt, we're on the Riviera (French or Italian, as the political fortunes ebb and flow):









After about 4 km, we finally arrive at the new border between France and Italy (point B):


















A plaque above the railway line showing the exact location of the border since 1947:









Yes, we're now in Italy! Till the next invasion. 









L'Italia eterna! (well, an eternity that is only 63-year-old)


----------



## Magnus Brage

brisavoine said:


> As a result the Franco-Italian border changed on several points between the Mediterranean and Savoy.


I have been traveling Ventimiglia-Nice with train. It's the most scenic and beautiful route in the world. Lots of tunnels.

Some say it's annoying and tiring to drive through those tunnels all the time.


----------



## Proof Sheet

Magnus Brage said:


> I have been traveling Ventimiglia-Nice with train. It's the most scenic and beautiful route in the world. Lots of tunnels.
> 
> Some say it's annoying and tiring to drive through those tunnels all the time.


I agree...I was in that area in 1990 and 1995 and the drive between those 2 cities is quite breathtaking....best as a passenger.

IIRC, there is a town, further north than where the photos were taken, called Saorge which was part of Italy until 1946/47...I was there in 1995 and was told that the area had a plebecite after the war and they decided to be part of France as their road connections to Italy were often cut off in the winter (pre-tunnel).


----------



## brisavoine

No, Saorge was already part of France before 1947. It was largely destroyed by the Germans in 1944.


----------



## Magnus Brage

My old Ford Sierra at Vaalimaa/Torfjanovka border crossing Finland-Russia, Aug 14 2001

It was a wreck when I bought it and it didn't look better on the way back.

It took about 6-7 hours to pass through customs, lots of paper work, no Schengen here.


----------



## ScraperDude

Magnus Brage said:


> My old Ford Sierra at Vaalimaa/Torfjanovka border crossing Finland-Russia, Aug 14 2001
> 
> It was a wreck when I bought it and it didn't look better on the way back.
> 
> It took about 6-7 hours to pass through customs, lots of paper work, no Schengen here.


7 hours! What does one do to pass the time? If Canada had a 7 hour wait I'd never drive to Canada EVER!


----------



## Magnus Brage

ScraperDude said:


> 7 hours! What does one do to pass the time? If Canada had a 7 hour wait I'd never drive to Canada EVER!


Well let put it this way, Be happy to drive a car and wait 7 hours, if you're a truckdriver you could be stuck for a week!!

The time for waiting was due to understaffed customs on the russian side. Russia means burocracy, you have to have your car searched, fill in customs declaration, what you bring to russia: that means amount of money, specify every object in your suitcase. You have to certify that you take your car with you when leave the country.

maybe its easier nowadays. btw at the estonian border at narva/ivangorod this process went much faster


----------



## ScraperDude

Magnus Brage said:


> Well let put it this way, Be happy to drive a car and wait 7 hours, if you're a truckdriver you could be stuck for a week!!
> 
> The time for waiting was due to understaffed customs on the russian side. Russia means burocracy, you have to have your car searched, fill in customs declaration, what you bring to russia: that means amount of money, specify every object in your suitcase. You have to certify that you take your car with you when leave the country.
> 
> maybe its easier nowadays. btw at the estonian border at narva/ivangorod this process went much faster


I've heard this is the case with other Russian crossings as of recent. I've seen youtube videos as well of Km after Km of trucks in queue for crossing.


----------



## Magnus Brage

ScraperDude said:


> I've heard this is the case with other Russian crossings as of recent. I've seen youtube videos as well of Km after Km of trucks in queue for crossing.


Yes, the border crossing looked like a camping-site, truckers cooking, smoking cigarettes, relaxing and playing soccer while waiting to get through.

*One more thing:* If you have a russian registered car and wants to enter Finland you have to take it to a certain auto-inspection. If the car does not fullfill the finnish standard of condition you will be denied entrance.

Why is this procedure necessary? Don't they have auto inspection in Russia?

Yes they have, but the russian auto inspection is corrupt, if you have a truck without brakes it's cheaper to bribe the inspector than to have the brakes fixed. 

You probably could compare the Finland-Russia border crossing to the US-Mexico one, that is a border between two very different types of nations, which means a major risk for contraband. The difference as far as I know is that the US-Mexico customs is much more developed
highly efficient and well organized.


----------



## kivi000

An external EU border, at last Saturday:

Italy - San Marino


----------



## seem

Bad_Hafen said:


> ^^that is not complicated it is the same thing but variation.


You might think but for foreign people it is. 

Cezch Republic was part of Germany during WW2 and Slovakia didn't have southern regions. Then also Polish took us land with about 30 villages then after WW2 we lost big part of country (Carpathian Ruthenia - thanks God we lost it) and we had southern regions again. Then there was a communism but a bit different then Russians came in 68 and we became to be controled by Moscow. Strange things were happening.


----------



## Bad_Hafen

I am foreign people


----------



## seem

Bad_Hafen said:


> I am foreign people


Good for you. You are not like the most of them who think that Slovakia is in Cezchoslovakia or that Slovakia has a beautifle sea!


----------



## piotr71

That's not a big issue. I met a foreigner(European) who was 100% certain that tigers and lions walk freely in Poland*. 

*_Poland-medium size country in Europe, just North of Slovakia_


----------



## ScraperDude

Magnus Brage said:


> Yes, the border crossing looked like a camping-site, truckers cooking, smoking cigarettes, relaxing and playing soccer while waiting to get through.
> 
> *One more thing:* If you have a russian registered car and wants to enter Finland you have to take it to a certain auto-inspection. If the car does not fullfill the finnish standard of condition you will be denied entrance.
> 
> Why is this procedure necessary? Don't they have auto inspection in Russia?
> 
> Yes they have, but the russian auto inspection is corrupt, if you have a truck without brakes it's cheaper to bribe the inspector than to have the brakes fixed.
> 
> You probably could compare the Finland-Russia border crossing to the US-Mexico one, that is a border between two very different types of nations, which means a major risk for contraband. The difference as far as I know is that the US-Mexico customs is much more developed
> highly efficient and well organized.


I can imagine it could be compared to the Mexico-US border. I've never crossed that border and probably never will. Mexico is the last place on Earth I desire to go to! I would gladly cross Russia-Finland border though  I'm sure taking my US registered car into Russia could be a bit of a nightmare.


----------



## eminencia

piotr71 said:


> *_Poland-medium size country in Europe, just North of Slovakia_


 Great definition :rofl:


----------



## YU-AMC

Magnus Brage said:


> I have been traveling Ventimiglia-Nice with train. It's the most scenic and beautiful route in the world. Lots of tunnels.
> 
> Some say it's annoying and tiring to drive through those tunnels all the time.


Cool stuff. I wanted to take that route from Rome to Nice, but there was a connecting station that let me to change my mind and take a plane. I sort of wanted to be safe. Maybe next time.


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## Ingenioren

Ventimiglia? Very dangerous place! :nuts:


----------



## void0

Magnus Brage said:


> fill in customs declaration, what you bring to russia: that means amount of money, specify every object in your suitcase.


This is not true. I am crossing this border regularly with my Finnish registered car. In declaration I don't write anything except information related to my car and myself. I can use car inside of Russia up to 1 month (maybe for Finnish citizens it is not limited), if you want to use longer, you should pay tax deposit (a few thousands euro), This is done so because import tax for second hand cars in Russia is very high and there is a risk that the car will suddenly "disappear" at wast Russian territories without paying import tax.
For Russian registered car you don't need to fill any papers nowadays.
I crossed the borders tens of times and longest awaiting period was about 1.5 hours, although my friends once waited for 5 hours at 31th of December


----------



## Bad_Hafen

piotr71 said:


> That's not a big issue. I met a foreigner(European) who was 100% certain that tigers and lions walk freely in Poland*.
> 
> *_Poland-medium size country in Europe, just North of Slovakia_


they locked them?


----------



## piotr71

Nope, ate them all.


----------



## seem

piotr, we still have some of them


----------



## brisavoine

The former border between France and Savoy (Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia).


----------



## chumpon

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Lokmachau_huanggang_crossing.jpg









HK - shensen


----------



## essendon bombers

Although not an international border crossing, these 4 snaps are of the Victoria/NSW State Border on Hwy no.1. It is located in the southeastern corner of Australia, an area where the state border is not defined by the Murray River, but by a straight line. The border is in the middle of forest.


----------



## Verso

^^ Oh yeah, I remember that border very well. There was a sign 'Welcome to Victoria' and all of a sudden another sign prohibiting bringing fruit into Victoria, so we stopped and ate all our bananas and oranges. :lol: (we knew about these restrictions, but weren't thinking about them at that moment)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Fruit Fly Exclusion Zone.


----------



## Verso

Yep. The Australian border (airports ) is particularly complicated. You aren't allowed to bring pretty much anything "weird" into Australia. There're big posters at airports saying "Declare or beware".


----------



## bogdymol

I understand the restriction on bringing fruits in Australia from another country, but I can't understand why you can't go with bananas from one Australian state to another one.


----------



## Penn's Woods

bogdymol said:


> I understand the restriction on bringing fruits in Australia from another country, but I can't understand why you can't go with bananas from one Australian state to another one.


In the U.S., about 30 years ago, there was an epidemic (if that's the right word) of a type of fly that can severely damage fruit crops. I don't know if it was _only_ in California, or if California was afraid of it getting in, (or it started there, they eradicated it, and they don't want it to get _back_ in...) but since then, I believe California prohibits fruit from entering the state. I have never driven into California from another state, so I'm not speaking first-hand, but I've heard they actually stop cars at the state border to make sure they're not bringing fruit in. Someone who's experienced this can correct me on this....

That said, as a general rule I'd think border inspections within the U.S. would be unconstitutional, unless the Federal government authorized it (interstate commerce is something the Federal level rather than the states has jurisdiction over, and the courts have been pretty consistent about invalidating state laws that interfere with it). If California is really doing this, someone who knows the law or the history of the issue can correct me on that too....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are agricultural inspection points at California's borders.

Australia is as big as a continent, in fact it is a continent. Besides that, diseases and other problems do not keep to borders. Victoria is one of the most productive agricultural states of Australia, with nearly all its surface making agriculture possible. In other states this is much less.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are agricultural inspection points at California's borders.
> 
> Australia is as big as a continent, in fact it is a continent. Besides that, diseases and other problems do not keep to borders. Victoria is one of the most productive agricultural states of Australia, with nearly all its surface making agriculture possible. In other states this is much less.


Do all cars stop (entering California)?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't think so, I think it is set up like a weigh station (truck scales).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Do they also do that on I-15 towards Vegas? Traffic is crazy there during the weekends...


----------



## Verso

bogdymol said:


> I understand the restriction on bringing fruits in Australia from another country, but I can't understand why you can't go with bananas from one Australian state to another one.





ChrisZwolle said:


> Australia is as big as a continent, in fact it is a continent. Besides that, diseases and other problems do not keep to borders. Victoria is one of the most productive agricultural states of Australia, with nearly all its surface making agriculture possible. In other states this is much less.


True, but there're many (usually not operating) checkpoints _within_ Queensland. I suppose the most famous is this one between Western- and South Australia in the middle of nowhere.


----------



## Interstate275Fla

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are agricultural inspection points at California's borders.
> 
> Australia is as big as a continent, in fact it is a continent. Besides that, diseases and other problems do not keep to borders. Victoria is one of the most productive agricultural states of Australia, with nearly all its surface making agriculture possible. In other states this is much less.


Florida has agricultural inspection stations located in close proximity to the Georgia and Alabama borders on all three interstate highways coming into the state, Interstates 75, 95 and 10. In fact, Chris, I spent Thanksgiving weekend in the Jacksonville FL area and took a ride on Interstate 95 over the St. Mary's River into Georgia; on the way I noticed one of Florida's agricultural inspection stations.

Unlike California (and Arizona too) where everyone has to stop, Florida only requires the following types of vehicles to stop at the agricultural inspection station for inspection:

Trucks and trailers
Rented trucks and trailers
Commercial and cargo vans

Trucks that have a PrePass transponder are allowed to bypass the inspection station dependent on what is being transported (the driver must follow the signals from the PrePass transponder). However, if the truck is carrying any agriculture, aquaculture or horticulture then the truck *must* stop for inspection regardless of PrePass signal.

While American states cannot set up checkpoints for the purpose of immigration and/or customs, constitutionally American states are allowed to set up checkpoints at their state lines for the purpose of enforcing an American state's agricultural inspection laws. Even Australian states as you mentioned are allowed to set up checkpoints for the same purpose.


----------



## snowman159

Penn's Woods said:


> Do all cars stop (entering California)?


When I entered California from Arizona on I-10, every car had to stop at the booth. The female officer looked at me, smiled, and said Have a nice day. 
On another occasion, with more traffic, they waved me through before I even came to a complete stop. The same thing happened every time I drove through one of the immigration checkpoints near the Mexican border.


----------



## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> Do they also do that on I-15 towards Vegas? Traffic is crazy there during the weekends...


I crossed California borders many times and was never stopped. The same with Florida or any other state. 

We were once stopped in the middle on New Mexico but it was temporary immigration control as it's close to Mexican border. They have this permanent off line structures where they sometimes redirect all traffic for control. 
We just had to show one of our Polish passports and were clear to go.


----------



## Luis regio+tapatio

crazyalex said:


> Hi sorry topic
> 
> I think this pretty funny
> "Tijuana border"
> Left Mexico, Right USA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Left USA, Right Mexico




Left Mexico????? Sure you've never been there, actually when you cross the border from Tijuana to the USA you dont cross to San Diego, you do it to San Isidro San Diego is some 40 miles away, so its Right Mexico (Tijuana) left USA (San Isidro)


----------



## seem

Verso said:


> True, but there're many (usually not operating) checkpoints _within_ Queensland. I suppose the most famous is this one between Western- and South Australia in the middle of nowhere.


Sorry for OT but I really like Slovenian translations for e-mail and link: e-pošta and povezava. 

We just use e-mail and link. 

Btw, but yeah, it is rare but we also use "e-pošta".


----------



## DanielFigFoz

In Portuguese it's "e-mail" or "correio electrónico" and "hiperligação"


----------



## mgk920

Luis regio+tapatio said:


> Left Mexico????? Sure you've never been there, actually when you cross the border from Tijuana to the USA you dont cross to San Diego, you do it to San Isidro San Diego is some 40 miles away, so its Right Mexico (Tijuana) left USA (San Isidro)


Yea, Tijuana is on the right.

BTW, 'San Isidro' is a neighborhood in the City of San Diego. The City of San Diego covers an amazing amount of land area.

Mike


----------



## DanielFigFoz

San Isidro is disconnected to the rest of San Diego


----------



## mgk920

DanielFigFoz said:


> San Isidro is disconnected to the rest of San Diego


It is a part of the City of San Diego that is connected to the rest of the city by a defined strip of water that runs north-south through San Diego Bay.

Mike


----------



## Djurizmo

Tijuana - San Diego


----------



## seem

^^ That's weird. :nuts:

On left river bank is Slovak village Červený Kláštor and on the opposite one is Polish village Sromowce Niżne - 










This path is the border between Poland and Slovakia. Poland is on the left side -


----------



## Djurizmo

seem said:


> ^^ That's weird. :nuts:
> 
> On left river bank is Slovak village Červený Kláštor and on the opposite one is Polish village Sromowce Niżne -


Was there border post before Schengen? Do you have some photos from that period?


It's totally weird in, for example, Czech-Slovak borders that in 15 years they didn't have borders, then they did, and finally no borders again. It's the most weird in villages and towns separated by small river or road.


----------



## eucitizen

There was a small booth at the end of the boat trip, around 12 km far from tihis picture. That bridge was built later, still before Schengen, but I guess there was no booth just some police control, because it was just a border for pedestrians. Anyway where is the bridge located, you can wade across the river, as the water isn't deep in that point.


----------



## erxgli

A border dispute led to the Mexican–American War, which began in 1846 and lasted for two years. The Mexican–American War was an armed conflict between the United States and Mexico from 1846 to 1848 in the wake of the 1845 U.S. annexation of Texas, which Mexico considered part of its territory despite the 1836 Texas Revolution
American forces invaded and conquered New Mexico, California, and parts of what is currently northern Mexico. Another American army captured Mexico City, forcing Mexico to agree to the sale of its northern territories to the U.S.


When the president of Mexico Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna suspended the 1824 Mexican Constitution, civil war spread across the country, and three new governments declared independence: the Republic of Texas (all Texas, parts of present-day New Mexico, Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, and Wyoming), the Republic of the Rio Grande (all Coahuila, Nuevo León, Tamaulipas and South Texas, Capital Laredo Texas) the and the Republic of Yucatán (All Yucatan, Quintana Roo and Campeche).


Texas successfully achieved independence and was annexed by the United States. A border dispute led to the Mexican–American War, which began in 1846 and lasted for two years; the War was settled via the "Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo", which forced Mexico to give up nearly half of its land to the U.S., (All Texas, California, New Mexico, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, parts of Wyoming, Colorado, Kansas and Oklahoma). A much smaller transfer of territory in parts of southern Arizona and New Mexico — the Gadsden Purchase — occurred in 1854. The Caste War of Yucatán, the Mayan uprising that began in 1847, was one of the most successful modern Native American revolts. Maya rebels, or Cruzob, maintained relatively independent enclaves until the 1930s
The Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo also ensured safety of existing property rights of Mexican citizens living in the transferred territories. Despite assurances to the contrary, the property rights of Mexican citizens were often not honored by the U.S. in accordance with modifications to and interpretations of the Treaty. The U.S. also agreed to take over 3.25 million dollars (equivalent to $82.2 million today) in debts that Mexico owed to American citizens.


Nuevo Laredo is a city located in the Municipality of Nuevo Laredo in the Mexican state of Tamaulipas. Nuevo Laredo was part of the territory of the original settlement of Laredo (now in Texas) which was founded in 1755 by the Spaniard Don Tomás Sánchez in the northern part of the Rio Grande. In 1847, the Guadalupe Hidalgo Treaty divided the territory attached to Laredo between Texas and Mexico. New Laredo was founded on May 15, 1848, by seventeen Laredo families who wished to remain Mexican and therefore moved to the Mexican side of the Rio Grande. They identified with Mexico, its history and cultural customs, and decided to keep their Mexican citizenship. The founders of New Laredo even took with them the bones of their ancestors so they continued to rest in Mexican ground


----------



## erxgli




----------



## seem

Border of Poland and Slovakia was a bit changed last months. Poland had 50 m of River bank more. :nuts:

http://www.ta3.com/sk/reportaze/156075_rieka-poprad-zmenila-hranice


----------



## Verso

^^ Why did they change the border just because of the river?


----------



## eucitizen

The river changed its water-course after the floodings.
The border was in the middle of the old course. Thats all, he is just making fun.


----------



## PLH

Because the river is the border.


----------



## Verso

Even after it changes its course?


----------



## PLH

Well, yes, as it is regarded as a natural border.


----------



## eucitizen

I dont think it is so easy to change the border. Probably there will be a new treaty border and Poland will give some of its territory to Slovakia in another part of the border.


----------



## bozata90

eucitizen said:


> I dont think it is so easy to change the border. Probably there will be a new treaty border and Poland will give some of its territory to Slovakia in another part of the border.


No, the border IS the deepest part of the river (the so-called _Talweg_) - when the river changes course, the border line is also changed - this is how it is usually done in the delimitation treaties between neighbouring countries.
There will be exceptions only if the river divides an inhabited place...population movements are never a good idea.
But, in most cases these changes are very small (no more than a size of a small flat), so the border is changed with the course of the river.


----------



## seem

Verso said:


> ^^ Why did they change the border just because of the river?


They did not. In fact river (floods) changed it because river moved a bit and border line is in the middle of the river. It is defined like that, so that's why. 

EDIT: I didn't see all of these posts here. :nuts:


----------



## Morsue

Sweden and Finland have a similar border treaty. Every 25 years a survey is carried out to determine the deepest flow of the rivers Muonio and Tornio and this is the exact border line, except for betweeen Haparanda and Torni where the border is determined by land marks.


----------



## ScraperDude

This has to be my favorite Canada/USA border crossing:
http://www.peacegarden.com/
and of course wikipedia page  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Peace_Garden


----------



## Alqaszar

Well, regarding the Mexican-American border movements, America could get rid of the problem of illegal immigration by Mexicans by just re-establishing the old border. Then most of the illegals would be automatically back in Mexico.

Need to make that proposition at our next tea-party meeting


----------



## brisavoine

Alqaszar said:


> Well, regarding the Mexican-American border movements, America could get rid of the problem of illegal immigration by Mexicans by just re-establishing the old border. Then most of the illegals would be automatically back in Mexico.
> 
> Need to make that proposition at our next tea-party meeting


Let's re-establish the pre-1804 border too. :naughty:


----------



## ScraperDude

Alqaszar said:


> Well, regarding the Mexican-American border movements, America could get rid of the problem of illegal immigration by Mexicans by just re-establishing the old border. Then most of the illegals would be automatically back in Mexico.
> 
> Need to make that proposition at our next tea-party meeting


Mexico can have all of that back.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

This isn't exactly at the border, but I went on google street view from the Portuguese border till Rosal de la Frontera, and in Rosal, about 2km from the border, I found this;


----------



## Danielk2

Are all trucks and buses subject to control, since they use the same lane as cars with goods to declare?


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Nothing is subject to control, it's an old sign. Although there was a woman stopping cars leaving Spain for the "Institute of Tourist Studies"


----------



## eucitizen

That sign should be prior to 1993. In any case it is still in good condition.


----------



## seem

Another Slovak-Polish border crossing called "Tatranská Javorina - Łysa Polana"

location - http://goo.gl/maps/mW2o

_panoramio_
































































_Polish pub, or Polish-Cezch-Slovak? 

Polish "Sklep", Slovak flag and Cezch beer_


----------



## bogdymol

seem said:


>


Which is the speed limit in urban areas in Slovakia? In September I passed through SK and I was happy that it's 60 km/h, but my father said that he saw at the border that it's 50 km/h. And indeed, we searched the photo on our camera while on the road and it was written 50. I don't have it on my PC, but I can search for it if you ask.


----------



## piotr71

November this year.

Czech - Slovak border.









Another one.









Hungarian - Slovak border crossing.









The last one is obviously old style(better in my opinion) sign. Speed limit for built-up area seems to be repainted.


----------



## bogdymol

piotr71 said:


>


Is this picture taken at the CZ/SK border in Mosty u Jablunkova / Cadca (map)? This is the border where I saw the 50 km/h sign, but I remember that few years ago I saw 60 km/h at HU/SK - Sahy (map).


----------



## seem

bogdymol said:


> Is this picture taken at the CZ/SK border in Mosty u Jablunkova / Cadca (map)? This is the border where I saw the 50 km/h sign, but I remember that few years ago I saw 60 km/h at HU/SK - Sahy (map).


It is 50 km/h now. It was changed in 2007 if I am sure. 

Btw, one guy from Polish SSC wrote that he was feeling like in Mexico when he was passing Šahy.  : )

_nowadays:_


----------



## bogdymol

seem said:


> Btw, one guy from Polish SSC wrote that he was feeling like in Mexico when he was passing Šahy.


It wasn't that bad... but could be better.


----------



## piotr71

Exactly. Border crossing Mosty/Svrcinovec(Cadca)

The last picture has been taken in Sahy. So, you probably saw the same sign with written 60 instead of recent 50.


----------



## bogdymol

piotr71 said:


> Exactly. Border crossing Mosty/Svrcinovec(Cadca)


I once crossed that border accidentaly because I coudn't find a place where I could legally turn my car around (it was continous line). So I went to SK just to turn around :lol:


----------



## piotr71

seem said:


> .
> 
> Btw, one guy from Polish SSC wrote that he was feeling like in Mexico when he was passing Šahy.  : )


Yes, but he felt so because of rising air temperature. As he got closer to Hungarian border as it was getting warmer


----------



## seem

piotr71 said:


> Yes, but he felt so because of rising air temperature. As he got closer to Hungarian border as it was getting warmer


Yeah, I am expecting you don't get 60 days in summer with higher temperature than 30°C somewhere in Northern Poland (or maybe even Poland at all). 

_just bogdymol did not get it : )
_

This part of country is quite poor but I think it is really nice region. 

_if I am sure - hills on a left side are in Slovakia and on a right side in Hungary_










_I really like to travel by car in this part of Slovakia/Hungary_


----------



## khoojyh

wow, i cant believe that the border in Europe is look so peaceful. awesome


----------



## ufonut

seem said:


> _Polish pub, or Polish-Cezch-Slovak?
> 
> Polish "Sklep", Slovak flag and Cezch beer_


It's Slovak but most guests are from Poland crossing into Slovakia. When I was there few years ago their beer prices were definitely Polish rather than Slovak - meaning at least 30% more expensive than regular cost of a typical Slovak brew. 

Their plum dumplings were excellent (I don't know what they are called in Slovak though).


----------



## seem

ufonut said:


> It's Slovak but most guests are from Poland crossing into Slovakia. When I was there few years ago their beer prices were definitely Polish rather than Slovak - meaning at least 30% more expensive than regular cost of a typical Slovak brew.
> 
> Their plum dumplings were excellent (I don't know what they are called in Slovak though).


Wait a second, do you have more expensive beers in Poland? I can't believe this. 

It might be "slivkové pirohy" or "slivkové knedle/gule" i like it more with strawberry jam.


----------



## bogdymol

Here you can see a video I made last month at Cenad (RO) / Kiszombor (HU) border crossing (the border crossing starts at 11:37):





map: http://goo.gl/nrzlq


----------



## janc

seem said:


> Wait a second, do you have more expensive beers in Poland? I can't believe this.


the cheapest beer in a regular shop in Poland costs ~0,6-0,8 €. In a restaurans, bars etc are obviously pricier.


----------



## snowman159

janc said:


> the cheapest beer in a regular shop in Poland costs ~0,6-0,8 €. In a restaurans, bars etc are obviously pricier.


I paid a whopping 5 EUR for a beer in Italy this summer. :nuts: (and it was just a regular bar, nothing fancy)


----------



## seem

snowman159 said:


> I paid a whopping 5 EUR for a beer in Italy this summer. :nuts: (and it was just a regular bar, nothing fancy)


We went to Italian Alps last winter and one day we ordered 5 beers. We were quite shocked when we had to pay 25 € for it. In Slovakia it might be about 7 €. 

Sorry for that off topic. I am just a bit surprised that beer is more xpensive in Poland because usually Slovak people go for a shopping to Poland cos it is less expensive.



khoojyh said:


> wow, i cant believe that the border in Europe is look so peaceful. awesome


What's awesome?


----------



## obserwator-kraka

Nowadays beer in Slovakia costs more less the same as in Poland, I mean in shops, in restaurants beer in Poland is rather more expensive. It used to be different before, everyone from Poland was buying beer in Slovakia because it was cheaper, after introducing EUR in Slovakia it has definitely changed. (In Czech Rep. beer is still cheaper  )


----------



## brisavoine

This thread should be renamed "Eastern European border crossings".


----------



## brisavoine

Border between Niger and Algeria:


----------



## Penn's Woods

brisavoine said:


> This thread should be renamed "Eastern European border crossings".


Well, what are you doing about it? Go take appropriate pictures in Llivia or the Vall d'Aran! 
The nearest border to me is hundreds of miles away, and it's cold up there this time of year.


----------



## hammersklavier

Penn's Woods said:


> Well, what are you doing about it? Go take appropriate pictures in Llivia or the Vall d'Aran!
> The nearest border to me is hundreds of miles away, and it's cold up there this time of year.


Yeah. Cold. Right. :nuts:


----------



## I(L)WTC

Argentina-Chile


----------



## nenea_hartia

That border between Niger and Algeria is simply amazing. It puts the Schengen Space to shame. 

@ I(L)WTC: thank you, it's maybe for the first time I see borders between Argentina and Chile.


----------



## g.spinoza

brisavoine said:


> This thread should be renamed "Eastern European border crossings".


In the next months I'll try and take some pics of Austria-Italy-Switzerland-Germany borders, and make this thread more "Central European"


----------



## abdeka

brisavoine said:


> Border between Niger and Algeria:


The picture looks very old, right? It looks like it was taken in the 70's / 80's.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

nenea_hartia said:


> That border between Niger and Algeria is simply amazing. It puts the Schengen Space to shame.
> 
> @ I(L)WTC: thank you, it's maybe for the first time I see borders between Argentina and Chile.


I have seen many, and the landscape is beautiful! Chile and Argentina are really countries I'd love to visit.


The Argentinians also put up signs at the border saying someline like "Las Malvinas Son Argentinas":lol:


----------



## piotr71

seem said:


> It is not really expressway. Sign is where is industrial zone I think and conditions of that section are really poor to be expressway. I .


I found some pics (I am aware it goes again to _Eastern_ European topic. Even off topic, for God's sake, however might be helpful) of this section and it's signed as expressway.

From here:


















And then again for merging traffic:








This part of that road is vignette free and looks very urban.









------------------------------------------------------

To get back on the topic let me paste some pictures(sic!) from Belgian-French border. Images has been taken some time ago and because of their poor quality never published, but I think it's good time to post them now. 

We are driving on E40 and leaving Belgium. 






















































Within the same set of pictures I found this. Dunkerque! 
Leaving _The Continent
_


----------



## Moravian

To get back on the topic let me paste some pictures(sic!) from Belgian-French border. Images has been taken some time ago and because of their poor quality never published, but I think it's good time to post them now. 

We are driving on E40 and leaving Belgium. 

Well, nice pictures from the E40 (the habour as well!). What could be stressed. The E40-motorway A18.be, A16.fr was built in 90s (it is really important because the Eurotunnel was opened that time as well - France/Belgium had been already members of "Schengen" so there are definitely no empty boarder-control-check-points. There is only smaller parking-site at the boarder. Even if it concerns Belgian motorway there are lamp-post only at the junctions at the A18 (quite new motorway...). There are lamp-posts at the A16 in France however usually turned off. Due to the surface the motorway A18 is a little bit more "noisy". This boarder is also language boarder.
I do not know - it is interesting but only the remark - there is no zero km of the A18 at the boarder but some 4. or 5.km. The fact is that the junctions of the A16 has be re-numbered in the past too.


----------



## bogdymol

I found an interesting video showing the Karawanken Tunnel between Slovenia and Austria. The border is in the middle of the tunnel and since the tunnel was opened in 1991 there are remains of the check-point (now used to collect the tunnel crossing toll). 

Entering the tunnel from Slovenia:










9050308


----------



## Palance

bogdymol said:


> there are remains of the check-point (now used to collect the tunnel crossing toll).


Not correct. There were 3 boots at each side of the tunnel: 1 for the toll (still in use), one for the Slovene (and even for a while Yugoslav) police/costoms and one for the Austrian. The customs/police boots are now not in use anymore but not demolished.

From Slovenia to Austria: Former checkpoint:









And the tollbooth


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Dutch car to the right :lol:


----------



## hofburg

I went only once there. 

nice photo of brenner border crossing, it shows how important that pass is.









http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/6onQAsdJUVE_CKsz0eONJg


----------



## brisavoine

DanielFigFoz said:


> For us Western Europeans, Western Europe is west of the former iron curtain and Eastern Europe is East of the former iron curtan. :lol:


Exactly. Leipzig and Prague are already Eastern Europe. Even Slovenia, I can't see it as part of Western Europe.

Western Europe is basically all the countries that had the original Eurovision before 1990. :tongue:


----------



## eucitizen

hofburg said:


> I went only once there.
> 
> nice photo of brenner border crossing, it shows how important that pass is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/6onQAsdJUVE_CKsz0eONJg


This is already after the border crossing, not the real border crossing.
On the Italian border crossing they are building a shopping mall, on the Austrian side a filling station.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

brisavoine said:


> Exactly. Leipzig and Prague are already Eastern Europe. Even Slovenia, I can't see it as part of Western Europe.
> 
> Western Europe is basically all the countries that had the original Eurovision before 1990. :tongue:



Except Yugoslavia


----------



## brisavoine

Penn's Woods said:


> There was a time in my life that Central Europe seemed like an old-fashioned way of saying Eastern Europe. Maybe it's starting to switch the other way.


Here Central Europe evokes ideas of Archdukes as well as Tintin's Borduria, Syldavia, and King Ottokar's Sceptre.


----------



## g.spinoza

eucitizen said:


> On the Italian border crossing they are building a shopping mall, on the Austrian side a filling station.


As if I'm going out of my warm car when it's -13 outside... hno::lol:


----------



## brisavoine

Palance said:


> And the tollbooth


Péage?


----------



## Verso

bogdymol said:


> Entering the tunnel from Slovenia:


That's the Austrian side. Here's the Slovenian side:









_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karawanken_Tunnel_(motorway)_

The border in the tunnel is also marked with coats of arms, but I don't have any pic.



brisavoine said:


> Even Slovenia, I can't see it as part of Western Europe.


Who said we're WE?



brisavoine said:


> Péage?


Yes. It should be replaced with 'toll'.


----------



## eucitizen

g.spinoza said:


> As if I'm going out of my warm car when it's -13 outside... hno::lol:


When both are opened it will be already spring or summer, so don´t worry you will be able to leave your warm car.


----------



## Interstate275Fla

bogdymol said:


> I found an interesting video showing the Karawanken Tunnel between Slovenia and Austria. The border is in the middle of the tunnel and since the tunnel was opened in 1991 there are remains of the check-point (now used to collect the tunnel crossing toll).
> 
> Entering the tunnel from Slovenia:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9050308


It is a long tunnel between Austria and Slovenia after I watched the video!

It reminds me of three tunnels I have been through in the USA: The George Wallace Tunnel in Mobile, Alabama which carries Interstate 10, the Fort McHenry Tunnel in Baltimore, Maryland which carries Interstate 95 (and it curves almost like the Karawanken Tunnel), and even the US 1 Tunnel in Ft. Lauderdale - the only tunnel in Florida.

However, there is a major difference I have noticed: The USA tunnels I mentioned are twin tubes that go under water while the Karawanken Tunnel is on land going under a mountain and it's just a single two-lane tunnel. Being a part of Slovenia's A2 and Austria's A11/A10 Motorways, would there be plans of constructing a parallel tunnel to bring it up to Motorway standards which would mean a continuous four-lane motorway between Salzburg and Ljubljana?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Interstate275Fla said:


> It is a long tunnel between Austria and Slovenia after I watched the video!
> 
> It reminds me of three tunnels I have been through in the USA: The George Wallace Tunnel in Mobile, Alabama which carries Interstate 10, the Fort McHenry Tunnel in Baltimore, Maryland which carries Interstate 95 (and it curves almost like the Karawanken Tunnel), and even the US 1 Tunnel in Ft. Lauderdale - the only tunnel in Florida.
> 
> However, there is a major difference I have noticed: The USA tunnels I mentioned are twin tubes that go under water while the Karawanken Tunnel is on land going under a mountain and it's just a single two-lane tunnel. Being a part of Slovenia's A2 and Austria's A11/A10 Motorways, would there be plans of constructing a parallel tunnel to bring it up to Motorway standards which would mean a continuous four-lane motorway between Salzburg and Ljubljana?


[brief moment of off-topic indignation]
There's a George Wallace Tunnel? On an Interstate? I can understand all the Lee Highways and Jefferson Davis Highways, but naming late-20th-century bits of infrastructure for mid-20th-century segregationists is just wrong.
[end brief moment of off-topic indignation]

Ahem. Sorry....


----------



## hofburg

Interstate275Fla said:


> would there be plans of constructing a parallel tunnel to bring it up to Motorway standards which would mean a continuous four-lane motorway between Salzburg and Ljubljana?


I heard of them, but that won't be soon.

@Verso


> Yes. It should be replaced with 'toll'.


it should stay Péage!! 

@brisavoine


> Here Central Europe evokes ideas of Archdukes as well as Tintin's Borduria, Syldavia, and King Ottokar's Sceptre.


ça veut dire quoi _eclipsés_? 



> Exactly. Leipzig and Prague are already Eastern Europe. Even Slovenia, I can't see it as part of Western Europe.


Slovenia was (is) EE for sure. but I think the division of europe to east and west was artificial and political only, and today it exists only in our heads. not to mention that it has nothing to do with geography, as greece and austria all are further east as slovenia for example.


----------



## Verso

Interstate275Fla said:


> Being a part of Slovenia's A2 and Austria's A11/A10 Motorways, would there be plans of constructing a parallel tunnel to bring it up to Motorway standards which would mean a continuous four-lane motorway between Salzburg and Ljubljana?


Maybe. Slovenia and the Austrian state of Carinthia (where the tunnel is located) are for it, while Vienna is against it (too many other one-tube tunnels in Austria). We'll know in the near future, because either another traffic tube or at least an evacuation tube needs to be built by 2019 by EU directives. Traffic is low, 7,000 AADT in 2009.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think other tunnels in Austria need priority for twinning, especially in A9, where there are a few 15.000+ AADT single tube tunnels.


----------



## brisavoine

hofburg said:


> ça veut dire quoi _eclipsés_?


Ils se sont éclipsés. = They've slipped away.


----------



## hofburg

still, I don't understand the point.  wasn't the story refering to politics in europe between WW1&2?


----------



## piotr71

Moravian said:


> (..) What could be stressed. The E40-motorway A18.be, A16.fr was built in 90s (it is really important because the Eurotunnel was opened that time as well - France/Belgium had been already members of "Schengen" so there are definitely no empty boarder-control-check-points. There is only smaller parking-site at the boarder. Even if it concerns Belgian motorway there are lamp-post only at the junctions at the A18 (quite new motorway...). There are lamp-posts at the A16 in France however usually turned off. Due to the surface the motorway A18 is a little bit more "noisy". This boarder is also language boarder.
> I do not know - it is interesting but only the remark - there is no zero km of the A18 at the boarder but some 4. or 5.km. The fact is that the junctions of the A16 has be re-numbered in the past too.


Very useful information. Thanks for that and keep it up.


----------



## brisavoine

hofburg said:


> still, I don't understand the point.  wasn't the story refering to politics in europe between WW1&2?


It's the ambiance of "Central Europe".

Whereas the ambiance of our dear old Western Europe is more like this:


----------



## TohrAlkimista

eucitizen said:


> This is already after the border crossing, not the real border crossing.
> On the Italian border crossing they are building a shopping mall, on the Austrian side a filling station.


On the Italian side, other than the shopping mall, the very imposing structure that is rising will host some offices of the company managing the motorway (_Autostrada del Brennero S.p.A. / Brennerautobahn AG_) as well. 

In the last years, due to the completed European integration, the border has changed a lot.
Now there is a tunnel dividing Austria and Italy.


----------



## seem

I taken this 2 weeks ago when I came from England  

Bratislava - Jarovce / Austria (motorways A6/D4)


----------



## abdeka

A few kilometers from the Algerian/Moroccan closed border (Algerian side)

http://www.panoramio.com/user/2216580?with_photo_id=45728473


----------



## DanielFigFoz

^^ Intersting that it is blocked further up, not at the exit


----------



## Palance

Also interesting that the border and Oujda are on the signs but never can be reached.

The sign seems quite new anyway


----------



## obserwator-kraka

hofburg said:


> Slovenia was (is) EE for sure. but I think the division of europe to east and west was artificial and political only, and today it exists only in our heads. not to mention that it has nothing to do with geography, as greece and austria all are further east as slovenia for example.


It is really a funny discusion, but in the history there were many lines dividing Europe into West and East, (there is an interesting map in Norman Davies history of Europe), like a line dividing Europe by religion - western and eastern christianism (which now would be more less eastern borders of Baltic countries, Poland, Slovakia and Hungary), then the line of limits of Roman Empire (more less Alps and Danube), then the limits of western art and architectural styles, and so on and finally Iron Curtain and now maybe the borders of EU. So, it is very difficult to say where this border is (it doesn't really exists), so the concept of Central Europe is quite a good idea, at first it is geografically correct and somehow all those lines cross in so called Central Europe which includes somehow as well Switzerland as Baltic States. Heart of it would be somwhere between Germany and Poland and the heart of hearts is maybe Austria and Bohemia (more less Czech Rep.) but of course everyone can discuss about it, that is why this topic of international borders in Europe is so fascinating, on one hand we have so many of them, on the other at least in EU we can cross them wothout obstacles now - this situation is still fresh for former communist countries as my country - Poland - maybe that's why this tread is more occupied by stories and pictures from this part of Europe, for most so called Western Europeans, borders are not so interesting anymore, after ten years or even very often now for most of people even in Poland it will be (it is) just normal to drive to Germany, Slovakia, Czech Rep. or Baltic States without even stopping on the border and just sometimes someone can say: 20 years ago I would never believe that I would cross the border in this way...
All the best in New Year for everyone!

P.S. If we take this idea that Central Europe would be something like former Austro-Hungarian Empire, then my city Krakow would be still Central Europe (as well as Lviv which is Ukrainian now) but Warsaw - capital of Poland not anymore...  - I think it's too much simplified idea, but of course it has some point


----------



## brisavoine

Border between Congo and Uganda. The subtext says: "Trust doesn't exclude checking, but checking reinforces trust."


----------



## Moravian

P.S. If we take this idea that Central Europe would be something like former Austro-Hungarian Empire, then my city Krakow would be still Central Europe (as well as Lviv which is Ukrainian now) but Warsaw - capital of Poland not anymore...  - I think it's too much simplified idea, but of course it has some point [/QUOTE]

As my experiences, Krakow - the historical capital city - is the most beautiful city in Poland. The important advantage was the avoiding of so cruel devastation during WW1 - in comparison with the huge demages in Warsawa, Wroclaw etc. I stress some other cities in Poland (Warsawa - no need to open the discussion Warsawa or Krakow etc., Gdansk, Poznan etc.) are worthy to discover them, only the fact if only one city would have to be selected....I would say Krakow - the city with really nice old downtown.

Krakow (as well as Lwow) were parts of Austria (or later Austrian-Hungarian Monarchy - however all the time located in Austrian part) - after the triple dividing of Poland - among Austria, Russia and Germany (Prussland that time...). So Krakow held its "Central European spirit" (it is only my definition) - as the part of Austria. The Wawel castle is also part of Czech history. The city was connected with Vienna by so called Northern railroad. The city is the centre of Malopolski region - definitely one of the most important region of the international tourism (not only Krakow or Auschwitz or Krakow, however Salt Mines in Wieliczka, mountain resort Zakopane and Tatra mountains, Wadowice - birth place of John Paul II., Kalwaria Zebrz. etc. etc. It is not not more than 2 hours of drive from CZ or SK boarders. It means, Krakow and Malopolski county is really Poland on a small and usually if tourist from Central Europe travel to Poland they visit Krakow and Malopolska. In 2008 the city celebrates 325th anniversary of the bottle at Vienna and defeating of Turkish army there (1683). Krakow calls out its Central European roots and connections. Between Wawel Castle and the Main Square there is the Royal Route (walk), same as in Prague....


----------



## Pfosten

eucitizen said:


> This is already after the border crossing, not the real border crossing.
> On the Italian border crossing they are building a shopping mall, on the Austrian side a filling station.


no that is the border crossingstation of the railway!!

the border of the brenner highway is on the left side, the white overhead sign in front of the tunnel is about 100/200m after the border between austria and italy!!


----------



## obserwator-kraka

Moravian said:


> As my experiences, Krakow - the historical capital city - is the most beautiful city in Poland. The important advantage was the avoiding of so cruel devastation during WW1 - in comparison with the huge demages in Warsawa, Wroclaw etc. I stress some other cities in Poland (Warsawa - no need to open the discussion Warsawa or Krakow etc., Gdansk, Poznan etc.) are worthy to discover them, only the fact if only one city would have to be selected....I would say Krakow - the city with really nice old downtown.
> 
> Krakow (as well as Lwow) were parts of Austria (or later Austrian-Hungarian Monarchy - however all the time located in Austrian part) - after the triple dividing of Poland - among Austria, Russia and Germany (Prussland that time...). So Krakow held its "Central European spirit" (it is only my definition) - as the part of Austria. The Wawel castle is also part of Czech history. The city was connected with Vienna by so called Northern railroad. The city is the centre of Malopolski region - definitely one of the most important region of the international tourism (not only Krakow or Auschwitz or Krakow, however Salt Mines in Wieliczka, mountain resort Zakopane and Tatra mountains, Wadowice - birth place of John Paul II., Kalwaria Zebrz. etc. etc. It is not not more than 2 hours of drive from CZ or SK boarders. It means, Krakow and Malopolski county is really Poland on a small and usually if tourist from Central Europe travel to Poland they visit Krakow and Malopolska. In 2008 the city celebrates 325th anniversary of the bottle at Vienna and defeating of Turkish army there (1683). Krakow calls out its Central European roots and connections. Between Wawel Castle and the Main Square there is the Royal Route (walk), same as in Prague....


hmm there is also a Moravian connection as well - Krakow was a part of Great Moravian Country before Poland even existed - but we are really out of topic now - sorry - I shut up


----------



## YU-AMC

RO/HU border on the Hungarian side looks quite new. Why bother wasting money on something to be demolished soon? Maybe it looks new, but there was not much cash put into it as it looks in that video.


----------



## brisavoine

This bridge is on the border between English-speaking Nigeria and French-speaking Cameroon (cars in the picture are crossing the border into Cameroon from Nigeria).


----------



## magm

*San Ysidro (San Diego, CA, USA)- Tijuana (Mexico)*. Busiest Border crossing in the World. Approximately more than 100,000 people cross the border here between Mexico and the United States daily... and the weekends are even worse. You can make about an 1 hour to 3 hours of waiting time. The worse ive been was 5 hours, back in 2001. Brought to you by 9/11 hno:


















































Here the entry to Mexico. Not quite as bad but at rush hour you can make up to 1 hour.









and currently the border is experimenting some renovations. 


> *Future Expansion of the San Ysidro-Tijuana (USA-MEXICO) Int' Border crossing. *
> 
> The number of northbound vehicle inspection lanes will increase from 24 to 34.
> 
> Southbound lanes will increase from six to as many as 12.
> 
> There will be two pedestrian crossing areas in both directions on either side of Interstate 5. Currently, there is one northbound pedestrian crossing east of I-5, and one southbound crossing that’s west of I-5.
> 
> The revamped port of entry will have more buildings for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, a larger primary and secondary vehicle inspection area, and a larger northbound connection and a realigned southbound connection to Mexico’s planned El Chaparral Land Point of Entry facility.
> 
> The Mexican side of the project involves moving southbound lanes west of the current crossing and more than doubling their number — to 19.
> 
> Officials said by the end of this year, workers will complete two of four bridges connected to the expansion: Three will channel southbound traffic to different parts of Tijuana, while the fourth will feed into the northbound lanes.
> 
> The project will be carried out in three phases
> Phase I involves the expansion of northbound vehicle lanes, the implementation of dual primary vehicle inspection booths and a higher capacity secondary inspection facility.
> 
> Phase II involves the demolition of the current administrative building and construction of bigger replacement along with a multi-story employee parking structure. A new pedestrian processing building will also be constructed.
> 
> Phase III involves the relocation of the southbound lanes entering Mexico. These lanes will be moved west of their current location to make space for the planned expansion of new buildings, parking structure and extra northbound lanes. Their new location will allow for a southbound traffic checkpoint to facilitate U.S. officials to conduct inspection of vehicles heading to Mexico. Mexican officials will greet vehicles and occupants at a bigger and better equipped immigration and customs inspection station known as Puerta Mexico El Chaparral.​


----------



## ChrisZwolle

5 hours for a 100.000 people-a-day border crossing.

Back in the 90's you could wait 8 hours for a 5.000 people-a-day border crossing in eastern Europe!


----------



## Djurizmo

How it was before 9/11?


----------



## AlexisMD

1-3 hours is nothing


----------



## seem

YU-AMC said:


> RO/HU border on the Hungarian side looks quite new. Why bother wasting money on something to be demolished soon? Maybe it looks new, but there was not much cash put into it as it looks in that video.


You never know what will happen in this crazy Europe. :nuts:

_For example our border crossings with Austria were running during the Euro 2008. _


----------



## nenea_hartia

^ Unfortunately, it seems HU/RO border booths will remain there for awhile. hno:


----------



## seem

nenea_hartia said:


> ^ Unfortunately, it seems HU/RO border booths will remain there for awhile. hno:


I didn't read that article but anyway - 

_no offence but I am not surprised about that, there is not just problem with Romania but also with coutries around you.. I think _


----------



## DanielFigFoz

To be honest, I'm surprised and glad that they didn't block the entrance to the whole of Eastern Europe. If they manage to block Romania and Bulgaria, I think that, unfortunately, they will remain blocked forever.


----------



## seem

DanielFigFoz said:


> To be honest, I'm surprised and glad that they didn't block the entrance to the whole of Eastern Europe. If they manage to block Romania and Bulgaria, I think that, unfortunately, they will remain blocked forever.


Why forever? They will just improve safety. We have 97 km long border with UA and it was a bit hard so it might takes ages but better than to bring problems such a migration, illegal businesses etc.

And Eastern Block (not Europe, choose if u wnat to talk about political or geographycal Europe ) was quite ok, I am just surprised that Hungary and Poland joined it so easy, even we had some problems because of UA.


----------



## x-type

DanielFigFoz said:


> To be honest, I'm surprised and glad that they didn't block the entrance to the whole of Eastern Europe. If they manage to block Romania and Bulgaria, I think that, unfortunately, they will remain blocked forever.


not them, but some new members could hno:
if you ask me, that's what we usually call complexes.


----------



## nenea_hartia

x-type said:


> not them, but some new members could hno:
> if you ask me, that's what we usually call complexes.


Don't worry, our Minister is a moron. This afternoon the president officially denied that Romania intend to block somehow Croatia and the stupid Minister made a step back just minutes after president's statement. In fact it is very possible to resign.
Also, there is a debate as we speak in the Romanian forums and the majority agrees it would have been a stupid, useless and unprovoked move to do anything against Croatia. You must understand that neither that Minister didn't intend to punish in any way Croatia, but only to respond to France and Germany cause trust me, the feeling now in Romania is simply frustration... hno:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

seem said:


> Why forever? They will just improve safety. We have 97 km long border with UA and it was a bit hard so it might takes ages but better than to bring problems such a migration, illegal businesses etc.
> 
> And Eastern Block (not Europe, choose if u wnat to talk about political or geographycal Europe ) was quite ok, I am just surprised that Hungary and Poland joined it so easy, even we had some problems because of UA.


It's not that, you don't think that the governments of Western Europe particularly like the entrance of Eastern European countries into Schengen do you?


----------



## nenea_hartia

DanielFigFoz said:


> It's not that, you don't think that the governments of Western Europe particularly like the entrance of Eastern European countries into Schengen do you?


I don't know if they like it or not, but they've payed a lot for it. It was a financial 50%-50% effort to help RO & BG to secure their frontiers (new detection & electronic surveillance systems, CCTV, faster cars and boats for the border police etc, etc). And we are talking about tens of millions of Euros here. So I imagine Western Europe do not intend to simply lose the money. From the strictly technical point of view it seems both Romania and Bulgaria have done their part very well - and the EU Commission admits it - but what really concerns the EU is the high-level of corruption in our countries, and the fact is unfortunately very true.


----------



## magm

Djurizmo said:


> How it was before 9/11?


i really dont remember, but it was a lot faster. Maybe 20-45 mins at most... (?)


----------



## WB2010

seem said:


> Why forever? They will just improve safety. We have 97 km long border with UA and it was a bit hard so it might takes ages but better than to bring problems such a migration, illegal businesses etc.
> 
> And Eastern Block (not Europe, choose if u wnat to talk about political or geographycal Europe ) was quite ok, I am just surprised that Hungary and Poland joined it so easy, even we had some problems because of UA.


Seem, why do you treat Poland and Hungary as inferior to Slovakia and worse prepared than your country to join the Schengen agreement ? In case of Poland you should not forget that the majority of our external borders are with other Schengen countries (Germany, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Lithuania - altogether 1908 km, that's over 62 % of the total length of our borders). 
The borders with the Kaliningrad Region, Bielarus and Ukraine are 1163 km long (38 %), but 363 km (further 12 %) of these is along the Bug river, one of the biggest in Central Europe and this makes that part of our external border much easier to protect.


----------



## Surel

About the borders and immigration... Well I guess that this particular problem is really not a problem in the eastern part of EU but in other countries.

Italy, France, GB, Spain, and Greece, they all serve as immigrant gates into EU...

On the other side, smuggling, duty evasion, etc is more the problem of eastern borders. But the picture is only complete when we realize where are concentrated the trade flows that go from EU to other parts of the world. It is Rotterdam and Hamburg.

Anyway, decision to not let the border to be opened as agreed is not good, nor fair. However I understand the reasons for this, these reasons are however never spoken about as that would be politically incorrect. I am sick of this hyppocrisy.


----------



## KingNick

magm said:


> *San Ysidro (San Diego, CA, USA)- Tijuana (Mexico)*. Busiest Border crossing in the World. [...]


HATE! :mad2: :wallbash:

I'll never cross this border again.


----------



## magm

KingNick said:


> HATE! :mad2: :wallbash:
> 
> I'll never cross this border again.


hehe... do you mind telling us why? :nuts: people are so nice **sarcasm!!**hno: ...


----------



## chumpon

http://hazis.wordpress.com/pulau-tubir-selatan/


----------



## x-type

nenea_hartia said:


> Don't worry, our Minister is a moron. This afternoon the president officially denied that Romania intend to block somehow Croatia and the stupid Minister made a step back just minutes after president's statement. In fact it is very possible to resign.
> Also, there is a debate as we speak in the Romanian forums and the majority agrees it would have been a stupid, useless and unprovoked move to do anything against Croatia. You must understand that neither that Minister didn't intend to punish in any way Croatia, but only to respond to France and Germany cause trust me, the feeling now in Romania is simply frustration... hno:


yeah, presidents have solved that thing yesterday. it seems that you also have morons for ministers, and cool president, just as we do


----------



## erxgli

Mexico-Guatemala Int'l border












Mexico-Belize Int'l bridge. To Belize









Mexico-Belize, driving to mexico












A rel USA vs Mexico Volley ball match. People playing volley ball using the border 
fence between Arizona and Mexico as the net











Mexico-USA Int'l border


----------



## bogdymol

erxgli said:


> A rel USA vs Mexico Volley ball match. People playing volley ball using the border
> fence between Arizona and Mexico as the net


Now that's funny :lol:


----------



## snowman159

erxgli said:


> People playing volley ball using the border
> fence between Arizona and Mexico as the net


I'm pretty sure that's between San Diego and Tijuana at Border Field State Park.

PS: here's another pic: http://www.flickr.com/photos/brianauer/2957760585/


----------



## erxgli

Many Mexican families living in the United Sates spend time with relatives at Borderfield State Park on weekends and holidays to avoid long lines at the border and for immigration reasons.











Worshipers prayed during a service at Border Field State Park


----------



## mgk920

erxgli said:


> A rel USA vs Mexico Volley ball match. People playing volley ball using the border
> fence between Arizona and Mexico as the net


That's actually the beach where the where the border meets the Pacific Ocean. Image shot in San Diego, CA looking towards Mexico. You can just see that bull ring through the fence at the far left.

Yes, it is a funny image.

:cheers1:

Mike


----------



## Djurizmo

Why is that chair there, on the left side of the photo?


----------



## brisavoine

The border between Togo and Bénin.


----------



## bogdymol

Djurizmo said:


> Why is that chair there, on the left side of the photo?


That's the border check area :lol:


----------



## seem

hofburg said:


> ^what about this
> 
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/DfNmIa81JnTuTsZW72yMcQ
> 
> 
> 
> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sou...6&sspn=0.013112,0.0421&doflg=ptk&ie=UTF8&z=15
> 
> IMO on the border SK/A it lacks of road connections. you should build some.


^^ "Kompa" (Ferry) in Angern an der March. : )

True, true. There is lack of bridges on the river Morava/March but more needed are bridges on the river Ipeľ/Ipoly. About 50 of them were destroyed during the WW2, in last 3 years 2 of them were re-built. 

On the river March, there is just this bridge in Hohenau - 





































_Just one lane  _










_View_










_Willkommen in Niederösterreich! _










_Few km away is border of Czech rep., Austria and Slovakia. It is in the middle of the river Morava/March._




























One new bridge (just for pedestrians) might be U/C this year in Bratislava -


----------



## CairnsTony

CNGL said:


> And here ends the highway :lol:: http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/39216429.jpg
> 
> Exactly at the Morrocco/Algeria border. What I don't understand is that sign written in... Chinese :nuts:.


But also rather handily in Arabic and French. As has been stated, there is presumably a Chinese engineering firm involved.


----------



## zsimi80

*Slovenia -> Hungary*










Source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/38530997











Source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/40475729


----------



## seem

I really like these Magyarország signs. I just can't remember Hungarian for republic = köztársaság.


----------



## Verso

I think it's funny that 'Magyar köztársaság' is written in the flag.


----------



## seem

Verso said:


> I think it's funny that 'Magyar köztársaság' is written in the flag.


It is not possible to make such a signs for Slovakia or Slovenia. 



















Btw, 

Triple-point of Slovak-Austrian-Hungarian border


----------



## zsimi80

Have you known this place?  




















Source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/23990916


----------



## CNGL

^^ You could also add a green line indicating the border between the Austrian districts of Eisenstad-Umgebung and Neusiedl am See, it hits the A/H border at the same point. (I just searched the location in Google Earth)


----------



## seem

^^ I didn't know about this island. 

I haven't been there for ages. 

This one looks also nice.


----------



## zsimi80

seem said:


> It is not possible to make such a signs for Slovakia or Slovenia.




It is not possible? There is such a sign on a bridge between Esztergom and Párkány (Stúrovo).










Source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20795703










Source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/209718










Source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/489464


----------



## BND

^^ those benches were installed by the Sausagefence design studio on the new Schengen borders of Hungary in 2007:


----------



## MrAkumana

seem said:


> _Just one lane  _



What does exactly the 24:00-5:00 sign mean? 

That you can't cross the bridge on that time frame?


----------



## mgk920

MrAkumana said:


> What does exactly the 24:00-5:00 sign mean?
> 
> That you can't cross the bridge on that time frame?


That sign image means 'NO ENTRY', so no going past that sign between those hours (midnight to 05:00).

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Naturschutzgebiet = natural protection area

These are rare though. I know of a few in the Netherlands but none have a significant traffic function.


----------



## seem

zsimi80 said:


> It is not possible? There is such a sign on a bridge between Esztergom and Párkány (Stúrovo).


2 colours look a bit weird. 



BND said:


> ^^ those benches were installed by the Sausagefence design studio on the new Schengen borders of Hungary in 2007:


I thought it was just work of PS. :nuts:



mgk920 said:


> That sign image means 'NO ENTRY', so no going past that sign between those hours (midnight to 05:00).
> 
> Mike


I am wondering what's the reason.


----------



## BND

seem said:


> I am wondering what's the reason.


Many small roads, which became border crossing points after the Schengen enlargement, were closed down by Austria for stupid reasons...









_Except bicycles and horse carts_









_Except local traffic, agricultural vehicles, bicycles and horse carts_









...


----------



## seem

^^ The same here. They didn't open one road for some silly reasons - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwPTh8t7NNw

"There are no paths, so it might be dangerous for pedestrians."


----------



## Го́голь

BND said:


> Many small roads, which became border crossing points after the Schengen enlargement, were closed down by Austria for stupid reasons...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Except bicycles and horse carts_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Except local traffic, agricultural vehicles, bicycles and horse carts_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Eh... it's pretty logical that these roads are closed for car traffic, isn't it? They are ridiculously small. It's not much more than a cycling path really.


----------



## Verso

^^ They used to be allowed for cars, until the border at least.


----------



## Го́голь

...and the second one still is, for local traffic at least. It seems pretty obvious that this road should not be used for anything other than local traffic IMO. If Schengen created dangerous cutoffs it's only responsible behaviour of the Austrian government to plant these signs.


----------



## Verso

Anyway, there're tons of such narrow roads allowed for cars, I doubt the Netherlands is any exception. Roads are built for cars, not bikes; bikes don't need such wide paths. And it's not like that would become the main road between Vienna and Budapest. :lol:


----------



## zsimi80

Hungary -> Austria (Not Austria-Hungary  )


----------



## brisavoine

Last pictures taken yesterday (Jan. 18) of the Franco-Brazilian bridge over the Oyapock River. The new date set for inauguration is sometime this Spring.


----------



## bogdymol

brisavoine said:


> Last pictures taken yesterday (Jan. 18) of the Franco-Brazilian bridge over the Oyapock River. The new date set for inauguration is sometime this Spring.


If those pictures were taken yesterday I seriously doubt that the inauguration date is this year.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Is that all they've done so far?


----------



## Verso

Slovenian-Austrian border in 1689. 









_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loibl_Pass_


----------



## erxgli

Hidalgo Texas, USA/Reynosa Tamaulipas, Mexico international bridge.
Crossing to Reynosa Mexico.:dance:


----------



## hofburg

Verso said:


> Slovenian-Austrian border in 1689.
> 
> _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loibl_Pass_


Except that it wasnt a border crossing, just a pass


----------



## seem

hofburg said:


> Except that it wasnt a border crossing, just a pass


Border crossing of Kingdom of Slovenia and Austrian monarchy. 

I know about one place in Slovakia where used to be a border of A and H before we "joined" and became a one country - http://goo.gl/maps/RRRb


----------



## Alex Trst

seem said:


> Border crossing of Kingdom of Slovenia and Austrian monarchy.


There was no "Kingdom of Slovenia", there were different kingdoms and lands inside the Holy Roman Empire, and Austria was one of them, becoming a separate empire only in 1804, and of course something totally different from today's Austria, a new country which originates from the collapse of the Habsburg empire at the end of 1918.


----------



## mapco

Main border crossing from South Africa into Lesotho


----------



## brisavoine

The old border between the Kingdom of France and the Kingdom of Aragon. Now it's fully French territory on both sides of the old border.


----------



## seem

We just had a chat about this weird border which goes between village and its castle - http://goo.gl/maps/5Uxw

Village Somoskő down there is Hungarian and the castle on a hill Šomoška is in Slovakia. :nuts:


----------



## erxgli

The USA-Canadian border







Ridiculous to enforce﻿ the US-Canadian border, it's like trying to enforce state or province borders.:bash:


----------



## Qtya

Great thread! Nr4001!


----------



## nenea_hartia

Qtya said:


> Great thread! Nr4001!


Congratulations!


----------



## mgk920

erxgli said:


> Ridiculous to enforce﻿ the US-Canadian border, it's like trying to enforce state or province borders.:bash:


The problem is that the USA is very leery about Canada's relatively lax refugee policies - admit those claiming refugee status first and investigate their cases later, while the USA holds refugees in overseas camps until their cases can be investigated and they can be cleared for entry - it is believed by the USA to be too much of a security hole. If those policies can be harmonized, bringing about the oft-discussed 'Strong Perimeter', it is my belief that the border checkpoints can then be safely removed.

A few years back, I was talking with some USCustoms guys who told me flat out that had the 2001-09-11 attack not happened, Canada and the USA were on track to have the checkpoints removed by about 2004.

I agree - it is sad that the border between two countries that have not fired a shot in anger at each other in nearly 200 years can be so difficult to cross while those between countries that have fought VICIOUS wars against each other twice or more over the past century are as easy to cross as are state lines in the USA - and you don't even have to change money anymore.

:no:

Mike


----------



## parcdesprinces

Here's a pic I took of the *Franco-Monegasque border* (between Fontvieille, Monaco and Cap d'Ail, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur).
The area was reclaimed from the sea in the 70s.


----------



## Alqaszar

Re: USA-Canada

The USA are becoming the new Eastern Block, with iron curtains all around and paranoia going on. But while in Europe people felt incarcerated for 40 years until the fall of the Berlin wall, Americans cheer up to measurements against "terrorism" and "illigal immigration". As history teaches us, such a regime won't last for long. Maybe America is still freedom-loving enough to survive all the those Sarah Palins and Glenn Becks.


----------



## erxgli

*North American Union*
What do you think about the *North American Union* and what about the border? 
Amero???? have you ever heard of that????






The noth american border will be with belize and Guatemala!!!??? :dunno:


----------



## Verso

^^ I don't think an NAU is the subject of this thread.


----------



## mgk920

Alqaszar said:


> Re: USA-Canada
> 
> The USA are becoming the new Eastern Block, with iron curtains all around and paranoia going on. But while in Europe people felt incarcerated for 40 years until the fall of the Berlin wall, Americans cheer up to measurements against "terrorism" and "illigal immigration". As history teaches us, such a regime won't last for long. Maybe America is still freedom-loving enough to survive all the those Sarah Palins and Glenn Becks.


BIG difference here - the 'Iron Curtain' border was fortified as it was to keep their own people in, the USA's border is being 'strengthened' to keep bad people OUT.

Mike


----------



## CairnsTony

mgk920 said:


> BIG difference here - the 'Iron Curtain' border was fortified as it was to keep their own people in, the USA's border is being 'strengthened' to keep bad people OUT.
> 
> Mike


What about the bad people who already reside in the States? The July terrorist bombings several years back in London were committed by people who were from the UK. 

There is no border security check that can comprehensively stop 'bad' people entering a country. Here in Australia I am completely over the ridiculous paranoia at points of entry. This country really needs to get over itself.

But I digress...

The border between France and Monaco is fascinating as it's basically urban and I guess can run along people's walls and fences. Are there customs checks between the two?


----------



## parcdesprinces

CairnsTony said:


> Are there customs checks between the two?


Nope ! 

Should we ?? :dunno:


:|


----------



## CairnsTony

parcdesprinces said:


> Nope !
> 
> Should we ?? :dunno:
> 
> 
> :|


I should hope not!


----------



## El Tiburon

erxgli said:


> Ridiculous to enforce﻿ the US-Canadian border, it's like trying to enforce state or province borders.:bash:


The logical and common-sensical solution for Stanstead/Derby Line should be a border-zone customs/immigration system like the one in place in the border city of Chuy (Rocha Department, Uruguay)/Chui (Rio Grande do Sul State, Brazil).

The international border (marked by the street lamps) between Uruguay and Brazil runs through the middle of the cities's International Avenue (which is composed of Brasil Avenue in the Uruguayan side and Uruguai Avenue in the Brazilian side)

































The Brazilian








and Uruguayan








border posts are located outside the cities on the roads leading to them.

Once you enter the border zone beyond the customs and immigration checkpoints you can freely cross the border back and forth between Chuy and Chui, but when you leave the border zone, either towards Brazil or Uruguay, you have to clear customs regardless of whether you actually crossed the borderline from Chuy to Chui or viceversa. For example, if you travel from La Coronilla (Uruguay) to 18 de Julio or San Luis (Uruguay), you go beyond the checkpoint in Route 9 (pictured above), enter Chuy and hang a left at the Uruguayan side of the International Avenue without the need to cross into Brazil. You drive west on the highway (Route 19) which lies in the Uruguayan side of the border








and cross the bridge over Arroyo San Miguel (San Miguel Creek)
























which marks the end of the border zone, and along which the border that runs parallel to Route 19 turns right towards the north. After you cross the creek, you have to report to Uruguayan customs at the Fortin de San Miguel border post








before continuing on, even though you never entered Brazil. Same thing happens to a Brazilian who comes to Chui (Brazil) from Santa Vitoria do Palmar, for example, and never crosses the border, but has to clear customs on Route 471 upon his return home. Likewise, if he came from Brazil and crossed into Uruguay but never reached the Uruguay border post, he can return to Brazil without checking with Uruguayan customs, but will have to clear Brazilian customs upon exiting the border zone (and viceversa for someone who comes from Uruguay).

Such a system at the border cities in Quebec/Vermont and Quebec/New York would eliminate the hassles that the Unites States government has created for border residents. Those who live in the cities and never left the border zones encompassing them would never have to report at the border posts unless leaving the border zones towards the rest of the Unites States or Canada.

(Photos are from Panoramio, featured in Google Earth).


----------



## erxgli

Verso said:


> ^^ I don't think an NAU is the subject of this thread.



Maybe... but what would happen with the mexican-american *border* with a North American Union?


----------



## MrAkumana

El Tiburon said:


> Once you enter the border zone beyond the customs and immigration checkpoints you can freely cross the border back and forth between Chuy and Chui, but when you leave the border zone, either towards Brazil or Uruguay, you have to clear customs regardless of whether you actually crossed the borderline from Chuy to Chui or viceversa. For example, if you travel from La Coronilla (Uruguay) to 18 de Julio or San Luis (Uruguay), you go beyond the checkpoint in Route 9 (pictured above), enter Chuy and hang a left at the Uruguayan side of the International Avenue without the need to cross into Brazil. You drive west on the highway (Route 19) which lies in the Uruguayan side of the border
> before continuing on, even though you never entered Brazil. Same thing happens to a Brazilian who comes to Chui (Brazil) from Santa Vitoria do Palmar, for example, and never crosses the border, but has to clear customs on Route 471 upon his return home. Likewise, if he came from Brazil and crossed into Uruguay but never reached the Uruguay border post, he can return to Brazil without checking with Uruguayan customs, but will have to clear Brazilian customs upon exiting the border zone (and viceversa for someone who comes from Uruguay).


I've been there a couple of times... back in the early 80's the border checks were a bit of a hassle there, although they are mainly aimed at cheking ilegal imports on your trunk rather than ID checks... but by the late 90's, from what I remember, the border checks were minimal to non existent... just some police waving you... moreover the border posts can be easily avoided by taking secondary roads if you want. I haven't been there over the last 10 years. What's the situation like nowdays?


----------



## El Tiburon

MrAkumana said:


> I've been there a couple of times... back in the early 80's the border checks were a bit of a hassle there, although they are mainly aimed at cheking ilegal imports on your trunk rather than ID checks... but by the late 90's, from what I remember, the border checks were minimal to non existent... just some police waving you... moreover the border posts can be easily avoided by taking secondary roads if you want. I haven't been there over the last 10 years. What's the situation like nowdays?


In the 2000's, you stop at the border post, they ask you the usual questions (where you are going, where you are coming from, what you bought) and sometimes they ask you to open the trunk to see if you are carrying "bagayo" (smuggled goods) for resale. Now that Brazilian money is strong, bagayo flows the other way because goods are cheaper in the Uruguayan side of the avenue.


----------



## Calgully

Here is an international border you probably didn't expect to see. From Australia!

The very northern part of Australia is Saibai Island in the Torres Strait. It is only about 4km from the southern coast of Papua New Guinea.

Here is a google earth link showing a satellite image of the small water crossing separating the two countries:

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=-9.364385,142.688026&spn=0.162599,0.3368&t=h&z=12

And here is a photograph taken from a boat pier on the North shore of Saibai looking across to Sidabadu on the South coast of Papua New Guinea.

http://www.ozoutback.com.au/Australia/tsitopw/slides/2001021508.html

You can see the coast of PNG in the background. There are many inhabitants of Saibai island that are of New Guinean ethnicity, and apparently there is significant unchecked local travel between the two countries here. It is almost a single community across two countries.

This is probably the first and last post on Australian international borders that you are likely to see in this forum.


----------



## AtD

^^ If you want to open a can of worms you could argue that Australia has a land border in the Antarctic Territory.


----------



## Calgully

AtD said:


> ^^ If you want to open a can of worms you could argue that Australia has a land border in the Antarctic Territory.


Whoa - probably dont want to open that can of worms. BUT if I did, maybe the South Pole is the world's only example of an eleven-way multi border point!

See here http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Antarctica,_territorial_claims.svg


----------



## Verso

^^ Or the center of the Earth (hypothetically).


----------



## Filou

The border between De Panne (Belgium) and Bray-Dunes (France) The customs booth is now a chocolat shop!

View direction Belgium










View direction France



















Bus stop at the border:


----------



## AtD

Calgully said:


> Whoa - probably dont want to open that can of worms. BUT if I did, maybe the South Pole is the world's only example of an eleven-way multi border point!
> 
> See here http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Antarctica,_territorial_claims.svg


Other than the PNG one you showed, is there any other part of Australia's territory where you can see another country? I can't think of one.


----------



## parcdesprinces

Filou said:


> The customs booth is now a chocolat shop!


Leonidas customs.... I loooove the idea ! :yes: (although I really don't like the Leonidas' chocolates, I think I can make an excpetion for that kind of shops)


Long live the Benefrageritalux union !


----------



## chumpon

Malaysia & Thailand Border


----------



## Calgully

AtD said:


> Other than the PNG one you showed, is there any other part of Australia's territory where you can see another country? I can't think of one.



I can't think of any different locations, but a bit further West of Saibai are Dauan and Boigu islands - both of which have views of PNG mainland similar to that from Saibai. In fact Boigu is even further north than Saibai but perhaps slightly further from PNG.

Here's a map showing the relative positions of the Islands and PNG. It's amazing that the border is so close to the PNG mainland. 










Many may not know that PNG was formerly a territory of Australia until 1975when it gained independence. I presume the Australians negotiated a favourable border definition giving them ownership of ALL islands in Torres Strait - including presumably any oilfields influence over shipping etc.

This photo from Boigu island shows PNG in the background










And another one from the air shows it even more clearly









Here is another view of PNG from Australia's Saibai island.


----------



## Djurizmo

parcdesprinces said:


> Leonidas customs.... I loooove the idea ! :yes: (although I really don't like the Leonidas' chocolates, I think I can make an excpetion for that kind of shops)
> 
> 
> Long live the Benefrageritalux union !




Whose tax are they paying?


----------



## AtD

Yeah I knew about PNG being a former territory. As far as I'm aware it had the only international land border of Australia since it came into existence, with the Dutch East Indies then Indonesia.

Since Australia gained independence well before Indonesia, you could almost argue that Australia had a border with the Netherlands

I supposed you could also argue we had a border with Japan for a while too...? Not so sure about that one.


----------



## Calgully

AtD said:


> I supposed you could also argue we had a border with Japan for a while too...? Not so sure about that one.


Not sure about that, but definitely Germany from 1884 to 1914 when Germany had annexed Northern New Guinea, and Australia had annexed Papua. WWI put an end to the German involvement though.


----------



## AtD

Wow, I've learnt something new today. Thanks!


----------



## CairnsTony

Calgully said:


> Not sure about that, but definitely Germany from 1884 to 1914 when Germany had annexed Northern New Guinea, and Australia had annexed Papua. WWI put an end to the German involvement though.


That's not quite right. Technically it was British territory right up until 1975, but administered by Australia. The Southern bit was administratively handed to them by the British along with the 'confiscated' former German colony of Papua.


----------



## mapco

Pre-Schengen border between Austria and Slovakia


----------



## hofburg

were you driving backward?


----------



## phiberoptik

Here is one regional border crossing between Croatia and Slovenia. Although pictures are quite old, crossing looks the same now. I'll also show you "the paper" with which Croatian citizens can enter some schengen countries (Italy, Slovenia & Hungary). Although when we are in Slovenia, we can go anywhere in EU, but that is illegal.

So, pictures.

This bridge is border between Croatia (behind me) and Slovenia, village Rigonce.


















This is the paper which Croatian citizens get if they don't carry passport. Each entrance into schengen area must be marked with Slovenian (or Italia, Hungary) stamp and marked once again when leaving that country. You do not need to leave country on same crossing where have you entered.










And this is after Slovenian border crossing building, showing driving regulations in Slovenia.










And this are pictures when returning to Croatia (it's not the same trip).

I have entered Slovenia on another border crossing, colloquially called "mala Bregana", near international border crossing Bregana, so entrance stamp iz Obrežje. Return trip was via Rigonce, the border crossing I showed you on first set of pictures.










This house is still on Slovenian side, but after you pass Slovenian customs. Nevertheless, you need to take right turn before customs to get there. (You can see that on Google maps)










And this is Croatian side of border crossing.


----------



## Verso

^^ I didn't know we use SI instead of SLO. What about other countries?



phiberoptik said:


> I have entered Slovenia on another border crossing, colloquially called "mala Bregana", near international border crossing Bregana, so entrance stamp iz Obrežje.


Are you sure you entered at "mala Bregana"? That border crossing is called 'Slovenska vas', not 'Obrežje'. Obrežje is the main (motorway) border crossing (Bregana).

Once I drove to the Rigonce border crossing, but I didn't enter Croatia, I just turned around on some gravel road and drove back. Slovenian police rushed after me and stopped me, cause they thought I had come from Croatia and entered Slovenia illegally. :lol:


----------



## phiberoptik

Verso said:


> ^^ I didn't know we use SI instead of SLO. What about other countries?
> 
> Are you sure you entered at "mala Bregana"? That border crossing is called 'Slovenska vas', not 'Obrežje'. Obrežje is the main (motorway) border crossing (Bregana).


Well, all SLO stamps that I have in passport are with SI written.

Yes, it's Obrežje. Those days you did not have vignette (still) so one could drive on A2 till Drnovo. I forgot that :banana:. My friend was driving Fiat punto and we were heading to Petrol gas station in Brežice. For full tank of gasoline, it was around 7€ cheaper then in Croatia (and we have two refinery, you don't). And then back via Mostec, Trnje, with stop in Dobova in Paradizo pizza & restarurant to spend those 7€ :lol: and back via Rigonce. Those were the days.


----------



## Verso

^ Yeah, those were the days, when we had the cheapest fuel around. Now it's the most expensive (after Italy).


----------



## Eulanthe

Quick question - is there a list of Slovenia-Croatia border crossings anywhere?

I'm headed down that way in summer, and I'd like to try and get in a few of the crossings - preferably small ones 

(incidentally, does Slovenia/Croatia still have local border crossings, for citizens of Slovenia/Croatia only?)


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> Quick question - is there a list of Slovenia-Croatia border crossings anywhere?


Here they are: http://www.policija.si/index.php/component/content/article/119/526



Eulanthe said:


> (incidentally, does Slovenia/Croatia still have local border crossings, for citizens of Slovenia/Croatia only?)


Yes, many. Some can be crossed by citizens of EU, EEA, Switzerland, and Croatia.


----------



## kreden

http://www.policija.si/eng/index.php/component/content/article/2/96-border-crossing

In English also


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Here are some Portuguese-Spanish border crossings.

There are some widely circulated photos of a road getting significantly smaller when going from Spain into Portugal 



















:lol:





































P.S, I found one thats even worse than the two above. :lol:

Picture was taken in Portugal


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^That vandalism of the border signs is very...Belgian.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

You get that all over the place on the Galician border, and near to Olivença too I guess. I'll try to find some pictures of the latter, although as Olivença is inactively claimed by the Portuguese Government, the border might not be signed. ("Inactively" is subject to opinion, the Portuguese started building a bridge across the river there, only to be stopped by the Spanish Police, and when a nearby dam was built, the PT government gave the Spanish a report on the effects of the dam on Spain, they originally left Olivença out. When this was complained about they re sent the report saying "Spain and Olivença")


----------



## Penn's Woods

DanielFigFoz said:


> You get that all over the place on the Galician border, and near to Olivença too I guess. I'll try to find some pictures of the latter, although as Olivença is inactively claimed by the Portuguese Government, the border might not be signed. ("Inactively" is subject to opinion, the Portuguese started building a bridge across the river there, only to be stopped by the Spanish Police, and when a nearby dam was built, the PT government gave the Spanish a report on the effects of the dam on Spain, they originally left Olivença out. When this was complained about they re sent the report saying "Spain and Olivença")


I don't get what they're trying to say. In the one with "fronteira" crossed out, are they saying "this shouldn't be a border - we want to be part of Portugal," or objecting to the Portuguese spelling of "fronteira"? I can't make up what's going on in the sign in the photo above that - I can see that they're trying to change the spelling of Galicia, but what are they changing it to - Galiza? And in the bottom sign, is it "Galiza livre" or "Galiza [part of] Portugal livre"?


----------



## DanielFigFoz

They are saying that there shouldn't be a border and by "Galiza livre" it is an exclamation, basically they are saying that it should be Portuguese. Galiza is the Portuguese spelling. There's a photo somewhere that says "ESPANHA 1KM" and some one wrote on top "NÃO É ESPANHA, É GALIZA" ("its not Spain, it's Galicia")

There are also graffiti saying, in Galician, "Galiza nom é espanha" (Galicia isn't spain)


----------



## xrtn2

French Guiana - Brazil























brisavoine said:


> Last pictures taken yesterday (Jan. 18) of the Franco-Brazilian bridge over the Oyapock River. The new date set for inauguration is sometime this Spring.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> Here they are: http://www.policija.si/index.php/component/content/article/119/526
> 
> Yes, many. Some can be crossed by citizens of EU, EEA, Switzerland, and Croatia.


Many thanks. 

Looking at that list, is it correct to say that "International" and "Interstate" crossings are for EU/EEA/CH/HR citizens (lists a/b) while list c is only for Slovenian and Croatian citizens?

Those small ones look far more interesting than the larger ones! 

An interesting observation is just how uniform these "local" border crossings are - nearly all of them look to be identical.


----------



## Verso

^^ International border crossings may be crossed by anyone, "interstate" BCs by citizens of EU, EEA, CH, HR, while local BCs only by SLO and HR citizens, but only those living close to them.


----------



## g.spinoza

DanielFigFoz said:


> They are saying that there shouldn't be a border and by "Galiza livre" it is an exclamation, basically they are saying that it should be Portuguese. Galiza is the Portuguese spelling. There's a photo somewhere that says "ESPANHA 1KM" and some one wrote on top "NÃO É ESPANHA, É GALIZA" ("its not Spain, it's Galicia")
> 
> There are also graffiti saying, in Galician, "Galiza nom é espanha" (Galicia isn't spain)


Like at the Brennerpass between Austria and Italy, some years ago there was a sign reading "Suedtirol ist nicht Italien" (South Tyrol is not Italy)... I don't know if it is still there.


----------



## MrAkumana

DanielFigFoz said:


> They are saying that there shouldn't be a border and by "Galiza livre" it is an exclamation, basically they are saying that it should be Portuguese. Galiza is the Portuguese spelling. There's a photo somewhere that says "ESPANHA 1KM" and some one wrote on top "NÃO É ESPANHA, É GALIZA" ("its not Spain, it's Galicia")
> 
> There are also graffiti saying, in Galician, "Galiza nom é espanha" (Galicia isn't spain)


Galiza is portuguese spelling for Galicia, but it's also galician language spelling for Galicia as used by the more radical galician separatists (the non separatist galician speakers use Galicia instead). They usually mean that they want to be free, an independent state, not part of Spain or Portugal.


Very interesting the 2 photos with the unpaved road after entering Spain from a paved portuguese road. Could you please tell me where were they taken?


----------



## DanielFigFoz

^^ I think, though, that that might have been written by a Portuguese person, especially as "Fronteira" was crossed out.

I don't think that any Galician in their right mind would want to be Portugese to be honest :lol:. Their salaries would drop by half.

The border with a Spanish dirt track with the "Portugal" sign is between Guadramil and Riomanzanas. 

http://historiasdaraia.blogspot.com/2011/01/fronteiras-guadramilriomanzanas.html

I'm trying to find the the other one.

EDIT:

I found it, its between Fóios and Navasfrías,

http://historiasdaraia.blogspot.com/2009/11/fronteiras-foiosnavasfrias.html


----------



## Palance

Verso said:


> International border crossings may be crossed by anyone, "interstate" BCs by citizens of EU, EEA, CH, HR, while local BCs only by SLO and HR citizens, but only those living close to them.


How should I know, as tourist who does not understand any Croatian or Slovenian  that a border crossing is only for local people? How is it signed, is it signed anyway?


----------



## Verso

Palance said:


> How should I know, as tourist who does not understand any Croatian or Slovenian  that a border crossing is only for local people? How is it signed, is it signed anyway?


They send you back.  Otherwise it's signed in Slovenian like this:









_http://www.policija.si/images/stories/GPUUUP/SMP/IMG/MPOP_Brezovica.jpg_

"mejni prehod za obmejni promet" = border crossing for frontier (local) traffic
"Brezovica" is its name
"gibanje omejeno" = movement limited


----------



## Palance

Well, I do understand a bit Slovenian, but on the route to the borders I cannot remember any of those signs. I remember a sign to Brezovica pri Gradinu (with SLO-oval) in Istria, but without notice that it should only be for locals.


----------



## piotr71

Verso said:


> ^^ International border crossings may be crossed by anyone, "interstate" BCs by citizens of EU, EEA, CH, HR, while local BCs only by SLO and HR citizens, but only those living close to them.


Is it true that on international and interstate border crossing with Croatia there is no need to use a passport and just EU ID would be enough?


----------



## x-type

piotr71 said:


> Is it true that on international and interstate border crossing with Croatia there is no need to use a passport and just EU ID would be enough?


yes. EU citizens can enter HR without passports, with ID card.


----------



## Verso

Palance said:


> Well, I do understand a bit Slovenian, but on the route to the borders I cannot remember any of those signs. I remember a sign to Brezovica pri Gradinu (with SLO-oval) in Istria, but without notice that it should only be for locals.


Well, you can't have these signs everywhere, it would be too much information. Generally you should know where you can cross the border (because you have to know you can't cross it everywhere) and if you make a mistake, it's just a few kms to get back on track.


----------



## BND

In 2003 we weren't allowed to cross the border from Slovenia to Austria at Cankova/Zelting, here:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=46.711148,16.02253&spn=0.005959,0.013937&t=h&z=17

So we had to go to the international border crossing Gederovci/Sicheldorf a few km away.


----------



## g.spinoza

What's the advantage in having some border crossing only for HR-SL citizens and not other nationalities?


----------



## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> What's the advantage in having some border crossing only for HR-SL citizens and not other nationalities?


people often own some immovables on the other side of border (as a result of living in the same country in the past).


----------



## Verso

^^ Not only because of that, but also to increase frontier mobility. We used to have such border crossings also with other neighbors before entry into Schengen.



BND said:


> In 2003 we weren't allowed to cross the border from Slovenia to Austria at Cankova/Zelting, here:
> 
> http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=46.711148,16.02253&spn=0.005959,0.013937&t=h&z=17
> 
> So we had to go to the international border crossing Gederovci/Sicheldorf a few km away.


Me too.  This road seems to be not so unimportant on maps, so I thought it was allowed at least for Slovenes and Austrians, but it was only for locals. It shortens your travelling for 11 km compared to Slovenia-only roads, if you're going to Maribor.


----------



## Alex Trst

g.spinoza said:


> What's the advantage in having some border crossing only for HR-SL citizens and not other nationalities?


Only for local people, not only for HR-SLO citizens in general, and not necessarily because they were once part of YU.
Before Schengen, it was the same on the border between Italy and Slovenia, in the surroundings of Trieste and Gorizia, where people are Slovenian-speaking on both sides of the border. People have land to take care of on both sides (once in the same country, Austria-Hungary). You were allowed to cross the border only with a special permit, only given to local residents, and keeping in mind that those small border checks used to close at a certain time during the evening.


----------



## Verso

Likely the most important local border crossing on the Slovenian border used to be on the main street connecting Nova Gorica with Italian Gorizia:









_http://www.panoramio.com/photo/39811866 by Sergio81_


----------



## Valdepasillano

DanielFigFoz said:


> They are saying that there shouldn't be a border and by "Galiza livre" it is an exclamation, basically they are saying that it should be Portuguese. Galiza is the Portuguese spelling. There's a photo somewhere that says "ESPANHA 1KM" and some one wrote on top "NÃO É ESPANHA, É GALIZA" ("its not Spain, it's Galicia")
> 
> There are also graffiti saying, in Galician, "Galiza nom é espanha" (Galicia isn't spain)


It's a small minority of the Galician people who think like that. You have as a biggest proof that the most pro-Spain party, the "Popular Party" is the one that rules in the region of Galicia with a vast majority. The second party is the socialist one, and the last one, with an enormous difference is the nacionalistic one, which represents around a 10% of the Galician population. People can say whatever they want, my neighbors by the way, considered my small neighbourhood in Florence, in Italy, an independent Asian nation due to the huge number of Chinese people who lived there. But that does not mean anything. With this I want to show that sometimes ridiculous actions are carried out by bored people.


----------



## Valdepasillano

Penn's Woods said:


> I don't get what they're trying to say. In the one with "fronteira" crossed out, are they saying "this shouldn't be a border - we want to be part of Portugal," or objecting to the Portuguese spelling of "fronteira"? I can't make up what's going on in the sign in the photo above that - I can see that they're trying to change the spelling of Galicia, but what are they changing it to - Galiza? And in the bottom sign, is it "Galiza livre" or "Galiza [part of] Portugal livre"?


Regarding Olivenza, I can assure you that people from there do not want to become Portuguese. My mom for instance, who is from Olivenza, gets very angry everytime someone calls her Portuguese, and the same with the big majority of the population. They don't get angry because they don't like Portugal, but because in the rest of the region of Extremadura for example, people joke about this with them and Portugal tries to retake their city, therefore they are a bit tired. Being called Portuguese is even an insult. I can demostrate you this very easily. When the association which intends to make Olivenza a part of Portugal (Amigos de Olivença) arrived in the city, they were kicked out and its president declared "Persona non grata" by the socialist mayor Ramón Rocha Maqueda, with the support of the population. Regarding the language, old people speak a kind "Rayano" dialect (which is a mixture between Spanish and Portuguese), but they don't want to become Portuguese people. Young people don't even speak Portuguese...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

In the Netherlands bicycle routes rarely follow dual carriageways. They are usually routed through a more interesting area. In Belgium you have cyclists on 120 km/h roads!


----------



## x-type

What is this sign with traffic lights at Last photo? Is it just announcing for upcoming traffic lights or you must stop on that red? Does somebody have larger photo of it?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's just an announcement of the traffic signals. They flash orange continuously, regardless of the phase the traffic signal is in.

non-urban dual carriageways that are not grade-separated are fairly rare in the Netherlands.


----------



## Palance

x-type said:


> What is this sign with traffic lights at Last photo? Is it just announcing for upcoming traffic lights or you must stop on that red? Does somebody have larger photo of it?


Not of these signals, but some other. These types of signals are very common here.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I got the 2011 census form today, and I was quite surprised to see:

What is your country of birth?

*-England
-Northern Ireland
-Scotland
-Wales*
-Republic of Ireland
-Other, please state

I am surprised the government actually referred to them as countries...


----------



## Verso

^^ And what's the connection with border crossings? Anyway:


eucitizen said:


> Andorra has the sign indicating you are entering the country the same as the other EU countries, that si the country name within the 12 stars.











_http://www.panoramio.com/photo/23290362 by se_bmw_

EU-wannabes. :lol: Or just very proud of being a member of the Council of Europe.


----------



## Zagor666

Border between Austria an Slovenia/Yugoslavia over the Pavlicevo Sedlo/Paulitschsattel.Before Schengen only allowed for local Citizens but now everybody can go thru and that´s great cause its a beautiful Monutain Road


----------



## ScraperDude

Palance said:


> The border between Roosendaal (NL, N262) and Essen (BE, N117) has been an important one, long time ago. Since highways have been built and since Schengen this road is not important anymore at all, but still it looks big there.
> 
> Location
> 
> 
> Direction Belgium:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^^
> I have never seen street lights like these before! Was this a fairly congested border crossing at one time?


----------



## CNGL

Verso said:


> ^^ And what's the connection with border crossings? Anyway:
> _http://www.panoramio.com/photo/23290362 by se_bmw_
> 
> EU-wannabes. :lol: Or just very proud of being a member of the Council of Europe.


:lol: I believe Andorra is 1/3 independient, 1/3 Spain and 1/3 France or something like that. And it is in the Schengen area for residents on Schengen area (Including the town of Schengen in Luxembourg ) and outside the area for non-residents.
Here are some images of Andorra. It seems you are in Spain, then you turn around and now it seems you are in France!


----------



## g.spinoza

CNGL said:


> :lol: I believe Andorra is 1/3 independient, 1/3 Spain and 1/3 France or something like that


No, Andorra is fully independent. Its highest authorities are the President of France and the bishop of Urgel in Spain, but that's it. Also Canada and Australia are ruled by a foreign monarch, but that doesn't mean they are less independent.


----------



## g.spinoza

This is a picture I made last Sunday of the Heuberg, as seen from Flintsbach am Inn. The Heuberg, in the foreground, is completely in Germany, but the mountain you can see behind it in the background is divided between Germany and Austra. The fun fact is that the visible side of the mountain is actually in Austria, while the opposite side is in Germany:


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## nenea_hartia

g.spinoza said:


> No, Andorra is fully independent. Its highest authorities are the President of France and the bishop of Urgel in Spain, but that's it.


Plus, they have the cheapest booze in Europe :scouserd:.


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^Yeah, the same for tobacco and gas. :yes:



CNGL said:


> :lol: I believe Andorra is 1/3 independient, 1/3 Spain and 1/3 France or something like that. And it is in the Schengen area for residents on Schengen area (Including the town of Schengen in Luxembourg ) and outside the area for non-residents.


Actually Andorra is 50% Catalan, 50% French and 100% independent  !

BTW, culturally, it's clearly more Catalan/Spanish than French. If I remember well, before the Euro they accepted both Francs and Pesetas, but they much more used Pesetas, same for the language, most Andorrans speak French, but with a Spanish/Catalan accent.


----------



## Verso

^^ That's not surprising given that almost all Andorra lies on the "Spanish" (southern) side of the Pyrenees.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I think the only official language is Catalan, right? Is also French co-official?


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I think the only official language is Catalan, right? Is also French co-official?


No, only Catalan. Catalans (in Spain and France) would be happy, if Andorra joined the EU, as Catalan would become an official language. :lol:


----------



## JeremyCastle

DanielFigFoz said:


> I got the 2011 census form today, and I was quite surprised to see:
> 
> What is your country of birth?
> 
> *-England
> -Northern Ireland
> -Scotland
> -Wales*
> -Republic of Ireland
> -Other, please state
> 
> I am surprised the government actually referred to them as countries...



Yeah, they do indeed. I just saw that on my census for as well. Online, on some UK site, it is called a country of countries. The UK is really a strange beast.


----------



## Zagor666

The "Border" between Liechtenstein and Switzerland


----------



## Zagor666

Border between Austria an Slovenia/Yugoslavia over the Pavlicevo Sedlo/Paulitschsattel.Before Schengen only allowed for local Citizens but now everybody can go thru and that´s great cause its a beautiful Monutain Road


----------



## Zagor666

Border between Austria an Slovenia/Yugoslavia over the Pavlicevo Sedlo/Paulitschsattel.Before Schengen only allowed for local Citizens but now everybody can go thru and that´s great cause its a beautiful Monutain Road :banana:


----------



## Zagor666

Reminds me of some borders between Luxembourg and Belgium.The only thing how you recognise that you are in a another country is that the colour of the asphalt changed :nuts:


----------



## ScraperDude

Palance said:


> These are also borders of timezones (Spain is one houer ahead of Portugal which uses "British time". Unless the USA, in Europe there are no signs telling you entering an other timezone. More specific: I have never seen them.


In some parts of the USA there are signs alerting you when you are changing time zones but recently I noticed signs of time zone change on I-70 at the Illinois-Indiana border have disappeared.


----------



## Fargo Wolf

Palance said:


> These are also borders of timezones (Spain is one houer ahead of Portugal which uses "British time". Unless the USA, in Europe there are no signs telling you entering an other timezone. More specific: I have never seen them.


I know there are time zone signs here in the province I'm in. The signs just don't tell you which zone you are leaving/entering. They simply tell you to move your watch ahead/back one hour. Newfoundland is the exception. Going TO the island, you move your watch ahead 1/2 an hour.

Immediately west of the BC/AB border, looking east:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?client=f...d=QhM3ZMOHBavoMZSDefWUsw&cbp=12,123.06,,0,5.4

Haines Highway from BC to AK:

Canadian Customs:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?client=f...=WieZZv6gO9C1fJ9vNz_Ufw&cbp=12,137.11,,0,1.75

US Customs:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?client=f...=FcSCeOPVwHaab0ix-WYJew&cbp=12,199.42,,2,1.48

http://maps.google.ca/maps?client=f...=WwR0gNzjo-XQ8cMBblVaZA&cbp=12,121.37,,0,1.92

http://maps.google.ca/maps?client=f...=4kl46-xKLeF2y-WyWJlspA&cbp=12,119.21,,0,3.86


----------



## Palance

Zagor666 said:


> Reminds me of some borders between Luxembourg and Belgium.The only thing how you recognise that you are in a another country is that the colour of the asphalt changed :nuts:


Like this? (Netherlands -> Belgium)


----------



## Gareth

Palance said:


> These are also borders of timezones (Spain is one houer ahead of Portugal which uses "British time". Unless the USA, in Europe there are no signs telling you entering an other timezone. More specific: I have never seen them.


European time zones always follow borders though. Though you won't get told to put your watch back an hour, when entering Portugal from Spain, there will be a sign telling you that you are entering Portugal, which should really be enough.

In North America, whilst they most commonly follow borders too, there are some instances where they stray and cut into states. I've never thought that was a particularly good idea, personally.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

^^ Smaller border crossings don't always, and often don't have signs, look at the last photo that I showed. On the other hand, people who use these roads are likely to know where the border.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Gareth said:


> In North America, whilst they most commonly follow borders too, there are some instances where they stray and cut into states. I've never thought that was a particularly good idea, personally.


This is often in states near metropolitan areas. So commuters from suburbs in Indiana do not have to change time every day when they drive from Gary or Whiting to Chicago.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Zagor666 said:


> Reminds me of some borders between Luxembourg and Belgium.The only thing how you recognise that you are in a another country is that the colour of the asphalt changed :nuts:


Changing of asphalt on a non international border but between Flanders-->Wallonia
Smooth pavement-->pavement that survived a war

(around 2.13)





[/QUOTE]


----------



## DanielFigFoz

^^ Tht must have been a good quality pavement!


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^No doubt it was good quality...15years ago.


----------



## ScraperDude

ChrisZwolle said:


> This is often in states near metropolitan areas. So commuters from suburbs in Indiana do not have to change time every day when they drive from Gary or Whiting to Chicago.


The only problem with time zone borders here is the cell phones flip between time zones when they shouldn't. Of course most people know this is happening because the phone is reaching a tower in the other time zone but it's weird in itself. I have watched my cell (while being a passenger in the car) switch to central time though I was in eastern time zone within 5 miles from the central time border with no intentions of entering Central time zone.

Time zones also divide neighborhoods like the one on US 81W the county line of Larue and Hart counties in Kentucky. Houses to the north are in Eastern Time and houses to the south in Central time. So your neighbor is an hour ahead or behind of you. weird


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## bogdymol

^^ You can change your telephone settings so that it will not automaticaly change the time zone.


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## AtD

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&...EwoBSHNpPU5hmRUMTQ6ag&cbp=12,253.03,,0,-14.22

Those in the buildings on the south side of the road observe daylight savings. Those on the north side do not. :nuts:


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## CNGL

ScraperDude said:


> The only problem with time zone borders here is the cell phones flip between time zones when they shouldn't. Of course most people know this is happening because the phone is reaching a tower in the other time zone but it's weird in itself. I have watched my cell (while being a passenger in the car) switch to central time though I was in eastern time zone within 5 miles from the central time border with no intentions of entering Central time zone.
> 
> Time zones also divide neighborhoods like the one on *US 81W* the county line of Larue and Hart counties in Kentucky. Houses to the north are in Eastern Time and houses to the south in Central time. So your neighbor is an hour ahead or behind of you. weird


Did you mean US 11W? There's no US 81W, and US 81 is far away from KY.

In 2009 I entered Portugal for only some hours, but I switched the time of my cell phone one hour back while my parents didn't the same with theirs!


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## ScraperDude

CNGL said:


> Did you mean US 11W? There's no US 81W, and US 81 is far away from KY.
> 
> In 2009 I entered Portugal for only some hours, but I switched the time of my cell phone one hour back while my parents didn't the same with theirs!


I was so tired when I posted last night. It's US 31W.


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## ScraperDude

bogdymol said:


> ^^ You can change your telephone settings so that it will not automaticaly change the time zone.


You're right! I have a blackberry that I keep on auto time zone as much as I travel. The older phones IE (not smart phones) do not have that option, at least the one I had here in the US. 
Before the Blackberry I had some crappy flip phone and the time would just jump back and forth depending on which tower I was picking up. 
Which also leads to another issue with cells is being near the Canadian border and picking up Canadian cell towers and being charged international romaing.
I don't know how often it happens to people. This has only happened to me once in the Niagara region. I stayed on the NY side and never entered Canada but was charged data and for 2 calls at international rates. T-mobile was quick to correct this error but now unless I go into Canada I turn my phone off in border regions as it sometimes registers Rogers network on the US side. T-mobile said they are aware of Canadaian towers covering the US and vice versa and it's a know issue in border regions. 

How does that work in Europe? Mobile phones in border regions.


----------



## Coccodrillo

ScraperDude said:


> How does that work in Europe? Mobile phones in border regions.


They pickup the most powerful signal, so sometimes the one after a border. But there should be an option in telephones to force them to use a particular operator, even if its signal is less clear than the one of the foreign company.


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## Ingenioren

Phones can change settings to only manual change operator, so it's not an issue.


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## koloite

ScraperDude said:


> How does that work in Europe? Mobile phones in border regions.


For someone living in a border region crossing the border several times a day this is quite annoying. You don't want to set your phone to a manually selected provider, because you're not always within reach of your preferred provider. But on the other hand you don't want your phone to switch to a foreign provider unless it's really necessary.
The best solution would be a real European subscription, i.e. one that doesn't charge extra when calling/being called abroad. There are several companies that operate in most European countries, so it should be possible.

One additional problem in border regions is that an international hand over is not possible (at least my provider doesn't support it). If you're talking to someone on the phone and cross the border, you cannot be transferred to a provider in the other country. Instead you will be 'stuck' with your original provider until you're out of reach and the conversation will end...


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## Verso

AtD said:


> http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&...EwoBSHNpPU5hmRUMTQ6ag&cbp=12,253.03,,0,-14.22
> 
> Those in the buildings on the south side of the road observe daylight savings. Those on the north side do not. :nuts:


I've driven around that roundabout.  And yes, I had to switch the clock. And I drove the same campervan, lol.


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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah I hate the fact that using your phone abroad is such a big scam. I mean, technically it won't cost a pfennig more to call or use the internet via a network of another country. If it works in the U.S., why can't it work in Europe?


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## Fuzzy Llama

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yeah I hate the fact that using your phone abroad is such a big scam. I mean, technically it won't cost a pfennig more to call or use the internet via a network of another country. If it works in the U.S., why can't it work in Europe?


In fact it does cost more. It's not the matter of countries, it's the matter of different networks and traffic interchange between them. It's especially expensive for the internet, because it takes much more data that a simple voice conversation and all this data must be forwarded through your home network's central servers. I don't know much details ( I had this issue explained only briefly at one of the courses at my Uni), but I know the principle.

What we really need is a pan-european network, with integrated databases and such. In fact, for example Danish and Swedish '3' UMTS networks are physically just one network and it wouldn't cost a single öre to enable free roaming between them. But they didn't 

But of course the traffic interchange doesn't cost THAT much and current internet roaming charges are ridiculous, here I totally agree with you.


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## bogdymol

ScraperDude said:


> You're right! I have a blackberry that I keep on auto time zone as much as I travel. The older phones IE (not smart phones) do not have that option, at least the one I had here in the US.
> Before the Blackberry I had some crappy flip phone and the time would just jump back and forth depending on which tower I was picking up.
> Which also leads to another issue with cells is being near the Canadian border and picking up Canadian cell towers and being charged international romaing.
> I don't know how often it happens to people. This has only happened to me once in the Niagara region. I stayed on the NY side and never entered Canada but was charged data and for 2 calls at international rates. T-mobile was quick to correct this error but now unless I go into Canada I turn my phone off in border regions as it sometimes registers Rogers network on the US side. T-mobile said they are aware of Canadaian towers covering the US and vice versa and it's a know issue in border regions.
> 
> How does that work in Europe? Mobile phones in border regions.


On my telephone I have 3 options regarding timezones:

Always switch the timezone when crossing the border
Prompt me that there is a new timezone and ask if I want to change it: YES/NO buttons
Never switch the timezone

And 2 options regarding roaming:

Manual: I select my own operator and it will not change at the border, but after few km I loose the signal
Automatic: in my country I keep only my own operator and at the border the telephone chooses the best signal (my operator or all other foreign operators; other operators in my country do not count)

I had before a Nokia 6300 and now I have a Nokia C5 and they both have this options. My mom has a creepy 1 € Nokia and there are the same options.


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## bogdymol

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yeah I hate the fact that using your phone abroad is such a big scam. I mean, technically it won't cost a pfennig more to call or use the internet via a network of another country. If it works in the U.S., why can't it work in Europe?


I might say that I understand that I have to pay more if I go abroad and I a network that belongs to another company, but our operators don't make any discounts if someone is going abroad and uses the same operator there (for example I am a Orange Romania client, but if I go to Austria and use Orange Austria or T-Mobile Austria it will cost me the same). European mobile network operators should offer some kind of discounts if you are using the same network but in another country.


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## DanielFigFoz

CNGL said:


> Did you mean US 11W? There's no US 81W, and US 81 is far away from KY.
> 
> In 2009 I entered Portugal for only some hours, but I switched the time of my cell phone one hour back while my parents didn't the same with theirs!


I never bother when I go into Spain


----------



## Zagor666

Here a few signs i was writing about earlier.

Near Italian/Slovenian border in 4! Languages 



Here is one were they just put the SLO sticker over the YU one 



This sign is between the Passo Tanamea an the border and it stand Jugoslavia on it 





This one is from the Korensko Sedlo/Wurzenpass


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## Verso

^^ 6 languages, but no Slovenian. Serbo-Croatian wasn't official in all Yugoslavia, just administrative.



Zagor666 said:


>


Where's this sign? A4 is nowhere near Tarvisio and certainly not in direction Slovenia.


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## Zagor666

Verso said:


> ^^ 6 languages, but no Slovenian. Serbo-Croatian wasn't official in all Yugoslavia, just administrative.
> 
> Yes but the sign is on the austrian side and i dont know what they knowed about languages in yugoslavia
> 
> Where's this sign? A4 is nowhere near Tarvisio and certainly not in direction Slovenia.


i am not 100% sure but i think it is when you come from the sella nevea,the road right is the 54 direction trbiz and the left one goes to the border on the predel


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## Verso

^^ I thought so, now I also see it in Google Street View (it's SP76). The A4 is totally out of place here, as if there's a motorway to a mountain pass. It's SS54 in both directions.


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## Zagor666

i think its just a simply mistake cause the italian a4 is realy far away and if you realy want to reach it better drive left on this crossing and not right :nuts:
i would like to know what the 4th language on the sign is where they write "Austrie" and "Slovenie"?


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## Fuzzy Llama

^^ Frulian


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## Zagor666

Fuzzy Llama said:


> ^^ Frulian


Thanks,i like local languages like rumantsch or ladinic


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## Palance

Verso said:


> ^^ 6 languages, but no Slovenian. Serbo-Croatian wasn't official in all Yugoslavia, just administrative.


I remember this sign from the YU-times (there was also a multilingual sign which told you to put your car in 1st gear), all signs have never been in Slovene.


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## bogdymol

Palance said:


> I remember this sign from the YU-times *(there was also a multilingual sign which told you to put your car in 1st gear)*, all signs have never been in Slovene.


Why should you?


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## Palance

Verso said:


> Where's this sign?


Here




bogdymol said:


> Why should you?


I think because of the steep slopes on the Austrian side.


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## Zagor666

bogdymol said:


> Why should you?


To make space for motorcycle drivers


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## Penn's Woods

Fuzzy Llama said:


> In fact it does cost more. It's not the matter of countries, it's the matter of different networks and traffic interchange between them. It's especially expensive for the internet, because it takes much more data that a simple voice conversation and all this data must be forwarded through your home network's central servers. I don't know much details ( I had this issue explained only briefly at one of the courses at my Uni), but I know the principle.
> 
> What we really need is a pan-european network, with integrated databases and such. In fact, for example Danish and Swedish '3' UMTS networks are physically just one network and it wouldn't cost a single öre to enable free roaming between them. But they didn't
> 
> But of course the traffic interchange doesn't cost THAT much and current internet roaming charges are ridiculous, here I totally agree with you.


I'm coming in on the middle of this and am feeling too lazy to read back but, the last time I went to Canada, my hotel's internet was down the entire visit, so I logged on using my usual wireless card. I expected to be charged something, but what I in fact _was_ charged was ridiculous (well over $100 a day.) I explained to them that I hadn't checked out the rate in advance because I'd expected service in the hotel, and I'd be happy to pay them a reasonable amount like $20 a day, but they wouldn't budge, I told them to go to hell and changed carriers.... It's a total scam. Why should it cost that much to provide service in Montreal, 500 miles from home, when roaming charges within the U.S. - even across the country - had been unheard of for years?

Next time I leave the country, obviously, I'll add Canada (or wherever) to my plan before I go....


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## Penn's Woods

ScraperDude said:


> In some parts of the USA there are signs alerting you when you are changing time zones but recently I noticed signs of time zone change on I-70 at the Illinois-Indiana border have disappeared.


Which is weird, when you think of it, since there's now a time change there all year as opposed to only during standard time (since most of the parts of Indiana on Eastern time didn't observe daylight savings time, they were in fact in synch with Illinois for half the year or so.)

As to Europe, I can't think of any place where the time changes within a country; there are plenty of places in the U.S. where you're changing time zones within the same state, so having that point marked is handy.


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## Penn's Woods

bogdymol said:


> I might say that I understand that I have to pay more if I go abroad and I a network that belongs to another company, but our operators don't make any discounts if someone is going abroad and uses the same operator there (for example I am a Orange Romania client, but if I go to Austria and use Orange Austria or T-Mobile Austria it will cost me the same). European mobile network operators should offer some kind of discounts if you are using the same network but in another country.


I keep seeing headlines on European sites (going back years) about the EU addressing the international-roaming-charges issue. Nothing's happened yet?


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## Verso

Penn's Woods said:


> As to Europe, I can't think of any place where the time changes within a country


Only Russia, and Portugal, if you count the Azores.


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## Attus

It may be a little bit off topic, I don't know.
As you may know Hungary is a member of the so called Schengen treaty which means we have no border stations to Slovenia, Austria and Slovakia. 
However, this year (2011) I left Hungary twice towards Austria and once towads Slovenia, and I was stopped and checked by the Hungarian police (although my car has a Hungarian license plate) near to the border. 
In the middle of the night police checkpoint is at the roadside with no infrastructure at all (meaning there are no lights), policemen use a flash light, check everyone, Ukrainan travellers even have to take out the bags, etc., and even I had to open my car's trunk.
In one case German foreign officers, too, checked me in the Bavarian forests at the motorway. 

OK, I think literally it is not against the Schengen treaty. However I am sure ot would be mouch more civilised to check people and cars in a border crossing station, having tables to put bags on (instead of the muddy ground), having lights in order to find travellers' IDs easier than in the darkness, etc.


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## ChrisZwolle

It is not allowed to conduct structural checks, that's against the principle of free movement of people, goods and capital. However, occasional checks are allowed. I have been stopped for an extensive check myself once in Southern Germany.


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## Eulanthe

It's my opinion that border checks should still have been allowed, even on a systematic basis - it would stop much of the nonsense with random controls close to the border in areas with little to no infrastructure for actually checking.

Schengen should have been about the possibility of removing border controls, not about the total abolition at borders - that way, resources could be deployed according to where the problems were. In fact, I'd have supported the original plan for Schengen - for travellers to fix a "green disc" to the windscreen of the car in order to pass freely without stopping. 

The situation now, where travellers can be pulled over in very inconvenient places is simply not satisfactory. For that reason, demolishing the border infrastructure was really a stupid act in many cases - look at Frankfurt (Oder). The German "zoll" are forever pulling cars in at the border, but they have no infrastructure to work from except a small bit in the middle of the road. Wouldn't it have made much more sense to maintain the facilities?


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## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> It is not allowed to conduct structural checks, that's against the principle of free movement of people, goods and capital. However, occasional checks are allowed. I have been stopped for an extensive check myself once in Southern Germany.


3 of 3 this year can be defined as 'occasional' ?


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## BND

Since the Schengen enlargement I've crossed the border many times. I was checked only once, last spring on the SK-PL border (Trstená-Chyzne). I was travelling by Orangeways coach.


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## Djurizmo

Last May I was driving from Belgrade to Paris. After entering Schengen in Hungary, I was stopped for extensive check at Toll point near Metz by French customs. Never had any checks inside Schengen ever, even though I'm driving non-schengen car.


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## Protteus

Getting to Mexican boundary through Tijuana-San Ysidro border checkpoint.
In the future this is gonna become part of the san ysidro entrance. And the
new Mexican customs will be like 500 meters away









By ms4jah flickr


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## bogdymol

I was stopped only once near a Schengen border. It was last year in September in far north-east part of Czech Republic, near the border with both Poland and Slovakia, on an almost empty road. They just checked the papers and let me go.

Also, I have seen random check-points at the Slovakian / Czech border both on D2 motorway and on road 11, but I haven't been stopped even though my car had Romanian licence plates.

More, few years ago I was stopped by the border patrol near the Romanian / Hungarian border (not a Schengen border, yet!), few km away from the actual border crossing. This happened to me twice in Hungary and one time in Romania.


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## eucitizen

We shouldn't forget that in some countries it is quite normal to be stopped by police for random controls that have nothing to do with checking foreign citizens.


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## Attus

eucitizen said:


> We shouldn't forget that in some countries it is quite normal to be stopped by police for random controls that have nothing to do with checking foreign citizens.


Right. But if it is done 2kms from the border and every single car is stopped it is a bit different thing


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## bogdymol

Some pictures from a non-Schengen border, between Romania and Ukraine. All the pictures are taken from road DN19 in Romania:

City entrance sign in Sighetu Marmatiei:









^^ Bellow the city name is written "Localitate de frontieră" (_Town located near the border_).

Double railway track in Sighetu Marmatiei (standard gauge - 1435mm + Russian gauge 1520mm)










Town in Ukraine, seen from Romania (most likely it's Hrushovo - Грушово):










Tri-lingual town exit sign (Romanian, Hungarian and Ukrainian):










Border marking:









^^ On the other shore of Tisa river is Ukraine.

Sign that says _"Atenție! Fâșia de protecție a frontierei de stat" (Caution! Protection strip of country border)_:


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## bogdymol

Some pictures from the Romanian / Serbian border near Drobeta Turnu Severin (RO):

Porțile de fier (Iron gates) dam (right - RO; left - SRB):



















The actual border line is Danube:










Those hills in the background are in Serbia:










Left - Serbia; Right - Romania:





































A statue of Decebal:










Romanian Church right on the river bank:


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## nenea_hartia

^ Great pics. Thank you, bogdymol! The church of Mraconia has a fantastic view. I see you were riding on a cruise ship. Can you please tell me how much did it cost you and where you board the ship? In Turnu Severin, maybe? And how far, just till Cazane?


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## bogdymol

nenea_hartia said:


> ^ Great pics. Thank you, bogdymol! The church of Mraconia has a fantastic view. I see you were riding on a cruise ship. Can you please tell me how much did it cost you and where you board the ship? In Turnu Severin, maybe? And how far, just till Cazane?


The boarding was at Turnu Severin and the trip was till Cazane.


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## Zagor666

The Danube river is on this place only about 200 meters wide,but 80 meters deep :cheers:


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## Bad_Hafen

i think 90m deep


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## PLH

*PL/D Kołbaskowo/Pomellen*

Still waiting for speed limits to be removed.




pmaciej7 said:


> Ograniczenia po polskiej stronie. Pewnie trzeba napisać gdzieś maila, żeby pomóc im zniknąć.
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> To ograniczenie jest przekreślone, ale i tak obowiązuje tu 120 umieszczone zaraz przy granicy. Być może (wymaga to potwierdzenia w toku dalszej eksploatacji) na odcinku 20 km od przejścia do węzła Schmolln, ograniczenie zostanie w ogóle zniesione; na razie w oznakowaniu jest bałagan.


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## Schwarzpunkt

*Fertörakos (H) – Mörbisch (A) - Border crossing on bike path.*










This photo was taken in May 2004. Hungary was already in EU but not yet in Schengen area. So there were border controls.


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## bogdymol

So there was a border check-point with border officers only for bicycles? Cool.


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## Schwarzpunkt

bogdymol said:


> So there was a border check-point with border officers only for bicycles? Cool.


Yes.  It is not the only one.
Dunajec (PL - SK)









Source: http://www.summitpost.org/dunajec/436647


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## Blaskovitz

Schwarzpunkt said:


> Yes.  It is not the only one.
> Dunajec (PL - SK)
> 
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> 
> Source: http://www.summitpost.org/dunajec/436647


It's was tourist border, not only for bikes. I was there.


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## eucitizen

I was there too many times and my passport was stamped with a stamp where there was the image of a bicycle instead of a car, as in other Slovak stamps.


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## snowman159

There are talks about opening the border between Morocco and Algeria:
http://www.tsa-algerie.com/diplomat...-sur-la-reouverture-des-frontieres_15375.html

the border crossing near Figuig at present:


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## ScraperDude

^^

Why was this closed?


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## snowman159

ScraperDude said:


> Why was this closed?


It's been closed since 1994. I don't know all the details and I'm definitely not the most qualified person to talk about it, but I think the Western Sahara and Polisario were/are some of the things they didn't see eye to eye on.


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## Corvinus

Five-border trip from Switzerland to *Hungary * in April 2011:

*1. Switzerland -> Liechtenstein * (A13 -> Schaan)
No formalities whatsoever, just coat-of-arms and flag - despite this being a border between a Schengen member (CH) and non-member (FL) country.










*2. Liechtenstein -> Austria * (Schaanwald -> Feldkirch)
Notice the sign asking to prepare passport for Austrian customs. 










*3. Austria -> Germany * (A14 -> A96)
Autobahn, without any stop (German officials nevertheless continuously watch incoming traffic in (often unmarked) patrol cars at the border).










*4. Germany -> Austria * (A8 -> A1)
Autobahn once again.










The last one, Austria -> Hungary was already in dark that day, so 
*5. Hungary -> Austria * (Sopron -> Klingenbach) instead:
(approaching the border from Hungary, it is already visible in the background)


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## g.spinoza

I went hiking today on the Bavarian Alps, on the Hochplatte near Linderhof, Garmisch-Partenkirchen. The mountain is totally in Germany, but the beginning of the path was in Austria, so we crossed the border here:









and I took a couple of pics. The border itself (Staatsgrenze) was in the middle of a small bridge:

















but the usual EU border mark was 30 meters on German side:









Coming from the other direction I only saw "Republik Österreich - 1 km" but not the actual sign.


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## Gadiri

snowman159 said:


> There are talks about opening the border between Morocco and Algeria:
> http://www.tsa-algerie.com/diplomat...-sur-la-reouverture-des-frontieres_15375.html
> 
> the border crossing near Figuig at present:


This is between Figuig (Morocco) and Beni Oukil (Algeria). 7km between 2 cities.



ScraperDude said:


> ^^
> 
> Why was this closed?





snowman159 said:


> It's been closed since 1994. I don't know all the details and I'm definitely not the most qualified person to talk about it, but I think the Western Sahara and Polisario were/are some of the things they didn't see eye to eye on.


There was an attack in Marrakesh in 1994 (2 spanish tourists dead), made by 2 french from algerian origine.

Morocco imposed to algerians a visa. Algeria did'nt accept it and closed the border.

No, Algeria imposed the end of Western Sahara issue before to open it. But, we hope that border will open soon because 1 million algerians tourists go to Tunisia in summer and Tunisia is not 100% safety. So algerians need to found an other country for holiday.


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## g.spinoza

Gadiri said:


> But, we hope that border will open soon because 1 million algerians tourists go to Tunisia in summer and Tunisia is not 100% safety. So algerians need to found an other country for holiday.


Don't think vacations are a major issue nowadays in the region...


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## piotr71

*Givet(F) - Heer-Agimont(B*).


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## g.spinoza

What's with the tank?


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## piotr71

It just symbolizes _Bataille des Ardennes_.


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## piotr71

*Grenspad (B)-(F)*
Forgivable OT(hopefully)


















































































France on the left, Belgium on the right.









France.









Belgium.









Border's ballard, I suppose.









Looking towards South.


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## piotr71

One of the most charming border crossing I have ever seen.

*Oost Cappel (F)-(B)*










Direction Belgium.

















































































Going back to France.


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## Gareth

A typically understated border between the Republic of Ireland & the UK...










Only the sign telling you to use MPH (KM/H the other way) highlights the border. There's not even signs to tell you what local authority you're entering into, let alone the actual state.


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## piotr71

*Popperinge(B) - Stenvoorde(F)*

Double border.

Entering France for the first time.


















Barely visible(sun not in favour) French EU stars on the right.


















Belgium on the left, France right. This road is divided by two neighbouring countries.









After some 2 kilometres we can see proper border's crossing booths.


















Entering France again.


















First petrol station in the Republic.


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## DanielFigFoz

County Fermanagh(or whatever its called now) puts up "Welcome to County Fermanagh" signs


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## mgk920

Gareth said:


> A typically understated border between the Republic of Ireland & the UK...
> 
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> 
> Only the sign telling you to use MPH (KM/H the other way) highlights the border. There's not even signs to tell you what local authority you're entering into, let alone the actual state.


I am constantly amazed that two countries that have had such terrible tensions between themselves off and on over the past century have never had any controls whatsoever along their common land border.

Mike


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## Fatfield

mgk920 said:


> I am constantly amazed that two countries that have had such terrible tensions between themselves off and on over the past century have never had any controls whatsoever along their common land border.
> 
> Mike


There used to be until the mid 90's (I think). All the main roads had army & RUC checkpoints but the minor roads were blocked with concrete blocks or had the road destroyed. The checking of passports wasn't really a concern for obvious reasons.

Generally people were allowed free movement from one country to another with the main customs activity at the entry points for people arriving from overseas. Even from mainland Britain.


----------



## Highwaycrazy

mgk920 said:


> I am constantly amazed that two countries that have had such terrible tensions between themselves off and on over the past century have never had any controls whatsoever along their common land border.
> 
> Mike


I'm guessing the fact such controls proved completely ineffective?! Besides, the british army had one hell of a job controlling that entire county line between the 6 counties and the Irish Republic!


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

Gareth said:


> A typically understated border between the Republic of Ireland & the UK...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only the sign telling you to use MPH (KM/H the other way) highlights the border. There's not even signs to tell you what local authority you're entering into, let alone the actual state.


I wish the border between Canada and the US was like that. But it's only getting worse and worse with time hno:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

There used to be customs there, and smaller crossings were blocked off. There was also a police presence on both sides, sometimes more than others, although passports were never required to cross the border


----------



## mgk920

^^
Fascinating. Thanx for the corrections.

Getting around in Europe must have been a total PITA a couple of generations ago.

Mike


----------



## piotr71

*Adinkerke(B) - Ghyvelde(F)*

When I first appeared on this border crossing it seemed to me quite weird. What's such unusual about it? Let's have a look:










We are beginning in Belgium.

On the left hand side we can see back of Belgian inviting board. 









Then French, after several hundreds metres.



























Then, after 2 kilometres driving they say we'll get into France after another 200 metres...???


















Well, let's check it again in the following morning.

Ghyvelde, route D601, direction Belgium.


















Top left the sign saying 200m to France.






















































So, the actual border comes here, on crossroads.









Looking towards Belgium.


















We can see border's road.



























Mentined border's road.



























Borderline.



























As you noticed there is kind of mess on French side. No EU stars and remained older sing informing about entering French territory while you are already there.


----------



## Fatfield

mgk920 said:


> ^^
> Fascinating. Thanx for the corrections.
> 
> Getting around in Europe must have been a total PITA a couple of generations ago.
> 
> Mike


Not really. Unless you were travelling between known hotspots (NI & Eire, East Europe-West Europe) I've travelled Europe extensively and long before Shengen came into being crossing from one country to another was a mere formality.

Mind you, I'm starting to get heartily pissed off at our customs/immigration hitlers here in Blighty. 1984 is up and running smoothly.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I'd like to see the UK join schengen, but I don't see that happening


----------



## Highwaycrazy

Since Gareth et al brought this topic up once again, I thought it would be nice to add this photo to his memorabilia:









Yes, that's an Irish flag on the County Armagh Side.


----------



## Highwaycrazy

Alex Von Königsberg said:


> I wish the border between Canada and the US was like that. But it's only getting worse and worse with time hno:


Border controls surrounding the 6 counties in the north of Ireland wouldn't be accepted by the Irish. No matter how many roads were blocked, it wasn't to be successful as the british army found out to their detriment and frustration. The issue was (and still is) about sovereignty. Many people just resorted to crossing by fields instead.


----------



## AtD

None of your photos in this page and the last work for me piotr71


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ They do work. Sometimes it's just a matter of browser cache and such.


----------



## bogdymol

General speed limits on Romanian Roads:










Picture taken after entering Romania from Hungary at Nădlac.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Unfortunately it's several hours worth of driving before you encounter a motorway from that point. I bet there is a huge amount of rural population in Romania who have never seen a motorway.


----------



## bogdymol

ChrisZwolle said:


> Unfortunately it's several hours worth of driving before you encounter a motorway from that point.


The closest Romanian motorways from that spot are A1 Sibiu bypass (319 km, 4h30m) and A3 near Cluj (305 km, 4h10m), but hopefully next year the closest motorway will be only 41 km (35min) away. Even more, the motorway that will pass near Nadlac and connect with the Hungarian M43 was tenedered and awarded and this days the contract should be signed.



ChrisZwolle said:


> I bet there is a huge amount of rural population in Romania who have never seen a motorway.


This is true. For example, my cousin has never been on a Romanian motorway, but he has been on motorways in Hungary, Austria or Finland for example. I personally was on A1 and A2 (just a small part of it) many years ago (I was 12 years old or something like that). After I got my licence I drove on A1 (Bucharest - Pitesti) and A3 (Cluj - Turda) only once. Just compare this stats: I clinched 171 km of motorways in Romania and 4162 km abroad (stats from Clinched Highway Mapping).


----------



## nenea_hartia

ChrisZwolle said:


> Unfortunately it's several hours worth of driving before you encounter a motorway from that point. I bet there is a huge amount of rural population in Romania who have never seen a motorway.


And urban too . Unfortunately.
And even the Prime minister is sometimes confused on that matter. :bash:


----------



## BND

Since when is the speed limit 100 km/h outside settlements in Romania? Or it has always been 100?


----------



## bogdymol

BND said:


> Since when is the speed limit 100 km/h outside settlements in Romania? Or it has always been 100?


Speed limits on rural roads was always 100 km/h on DN (Drum National = National Road).

On other roads (DJ = Drum Județean - County Road; DC = Drum Comunal - Local Road) it is 90 km/h.


----------



## Fatfield

zzzzzzz


----------



## Fatfield

I travelled along the A1 Motorway in Romania in 1988 and we overtook a horse & cart. :nuts: :lol:


----------



## bogdymol

Fatfield said:


> I travelled along the A1 Motorway in Romania in 1988 and we overtook a horse & cart. :nuts: :lol:


A1 motorway, Romania, 1982:


----------



## Fatfield

^^^^

That looks like the same cart! :lol:


----------



## Markowice10

DanielFigFoz said:


> Not even the border towns are signed in the different countires, let alone large cities further away. The only exception to this that I've ever seen is that a Spanish motorway which becomes the Portuguese A6 has an exit for "Campo Maior" in Portugal and pictures of the new Spanish motorway built to link with the Portuguese A24 have signs saying "Chaves".
> 
> Neither of those towns are really large enough to have a well-known Spanish version, so they're just in Portuguese


Border crossing official signs in Poland:


----------



## brisavoine

Escher said:


> I wonder if there will be the EU sign "France 1km" on the brazilian side.


Yes, there will most likely be a EU sign "France".


----------



## Markowice10

Multi-border:
# state
# commune
# village
:nuts:


----------



## Verso

Escher said:


> I wonder if there will be the EU sign "France 1km" on the brazilian side. That would be pretty weird!! :lol:


I've only seen these signs in EU members (but of course Brazil can erect it, if it wants to).



x-type said:


> it doesn't matter. EU sign is Slovenian invention. i haven't seen it anywhere else. at border crossings with Hungary there is written Magyarország. when Slovenia was out of EU, at Šentilj there was Republik Österreich and at Fernetiči Italia.
> even Greece doesn't have EU, but Hellas.


I was talking about "Croatia 1 km" in Slovenia. Anyway, it isn't our invention, I've seen an EU sign somewhere else, I think it was even on an internal EU border. And even if, what's wrong with it? I think it's pretty cool to inform people you're entering EU (which may not be entirely obvious just with the EU stars).


----------



## seem

Markowice10 said:


> Multi-border:
> # state
> # commune
> # village
> :nuts:


I don't think that this is something rare.

For example, Lysá Poľana in Slovakia -



















panoramio

I just found this picture from 1993 when Slovakia was born.









http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomasznowak/217202772/
okres_cadca by Tomasz Nowak, on Flickr


----------



## Gag Halfrunt

nenea_hartia said:


> I've seen in France Schengen signs showing Belgium 1km away, then 500m away.


Signs with the country name on a European flag were around years before Schengen. I remember seeing them on the border between France and Germany back in the early 1990s. As far as I remember, they went something like:


ALLEMAGNE 1 km

ALLEMAGNE 500 m

DEUTSCHLAND (on the border itself)


----------



## hofburg

Sweden??


----------



## Escher

Verso said:


> I've only seen these signs in EU members (but of course Brazil can erect it, if it wants to).


Hahahahaha, doubt it!!! If Brazil erects a sign for itself it would surprise me already!! The road itself is in ridiculous situation:




























Probably because Amapá state is not linked to the rest of the country by road, the Federal Gov. doesn't cares much. And the state government either has the money, plus the fact that things over there were messy last years, the last governor was under arrest, so things don't move too fast on this side of the country.


----------



## Verso

^^ LOL, horrible. So where exactly will the "European" road lead?


----------



## brisavoine

They are currently upgrading the road on the Brazilian side of the border, so it won't look like in the pictures. The road, however, will end at the Amazon River. There is no bridge crossing the Amazon, and I don't think any bridge is planned, so you won't be able to drive from Cayenne to Rio.

Meanwhile on the French side of the border they have just finished the pavement of the road leading to the bridge on the border.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Building a bridge across the Amazon River near its mouth would require at least three major bridges that are each 10 - 25 kilometer in length.


----------



## Verso

Is there at least ferry in Macapá? There doesn't seem to be any road on the other side of the Amazon. So you'll be able to access just a small part of Brazil from French Guiana?


----------



## brisavoine

As you can see on this map of the Brazilian ministry of transports, there is a fully paved road between Macapá and Calçoene, and then the road is currently being paved between Calçoene and Oiapoque where the bridge is located. There is also a fully paved road from Belém to Brasilia and the south of Brazil. The missing link will be between Belém and Macapá.


----------



## brisavoine

In order to avoid the mouth of the Amazon, they could build a road between Altamira, Almeirim, and Laranjal do Jari (in green on the map below). They are currently paving the road between Belo Monte and Itapiranga, and then south of Itapiranga it's already entirely paved to Brasilia and southern Brazil. So all they would have to do is pave the road between São Pedro and Laranjal do Jari, build the road between Laranjal do Jari and Almeirim and between Almeirim and Altamira, and cross the Amazon at Almeirim where the river is the narrowest.










To cross the Amazon at Almeirim all they need is a 4 km bridge between the south bank and the island in the river, and then another 770 meter long bridge between the island and the north bank.


----------



## Escher

Verso said:


> Is there at least ferry in Macapá? There doesn't seem to be any road on the other side of the Amazon. So you'll be able to access just a small part of Brazil from French Guiana?


Yes, but it´s really expensive!


----------



## seem

Tatranská Javorina (SK) - Łysa Polana (PL)




Kronos KBC said:


> Luki_SL
> 
> Ta tablica odległości to chyba została niedawno postawiona...
> 
> *Fotki z sierpnia 2006*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :goodbye:


----------



## abdeka

Algerian/Libyan Border


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Is that a radio antena on that Nissan?


----------



## abdeka

bogdymol said:


> ^^ Is that a radio antena on that Nissan?


^^ Yep!


----------



## hofburg

they are pretty lucky there is a tree right on the border line.


----------



## parcdesprinces

hofburg said:


> they are pretty lucky there is a tree right on the border line.


I believe luck has nothing to do with that...Maybe I'm wrong but I think when the French and Italians "decided" of the border between modern Algeria and modern Libya, they certainly used this tree as a landmark...as simple as that !


----------



## CasaMor

*Mauritania -> Morocco*

 P1000400 par michelrouaix, sur Flickr


----------



## -Pino-

abdeka said:


> Algerian/Libyan Border


Is the border always as heavily protected with armed gunmen or was the photo taken at a special situation (for instance, due the current Libyan civil unrest)?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I believe banditry was a serious problem in the interior of North African countries. There are vast expanses of desert in central / southern Algeria that measures 2000 by 1700 kilometers with maybe just a million inhabitants. There isn't much law enforcement down there outside the cities and towns.

On the other hand, I've also been stopped once in northern Spain by heavily armed police with submachine guns and shotguns out in the open.


----------



## abdeka

-Pino- said:


> Is the border always as heavily protected with armed gunmen or was the photo taken at a special situation (for instance, due the current Libyan civil unrest)?


Yes, the gendarmerie and the army are heavily deployed at the border because of what is happening right now in Libya.


----------



## abdeka

ChrisZwolle said:


> I believe banditry was a serious problem in the interior of North African countries. There are vast expanses of desert in central / southern Algeria that measures 2000 by 1700 kilometers with maybe just a million inhabitants. There isn't much law enforcement down there outside the cities and towns.
> 
> On the other hand, I've also been stopped once in northern Spain by heavily armed police with submachine guns and shotguns out in the open.


It's pretty hard to secure thousands of miles of Saharan borders.


----------



## Corvinus

*Germany -> Austria* border at Kleinwalsertal area of Austria (entering from German B19 federal road).
Kleinwalstertal is -by road- only accessible from German territory, not from the rest of Austria.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

http://maps.google.pt/?ie=UTF8&ll=5...xC2OFIIDWc9726JcXRhmfw&cbp=12,231.28,,0,10.11

^^ A sign for British speed limits!!!!


----------



## Palance

A border crossing between Netherlands and Belgium only for cyclists. The border is marked, because it was a smuggling route a long time ago. There is a marker for `Klaveren Vrouwke´, a Belgian smuggler who was shot by the Dutch army in 1916.
Location: http://maps.google.nl/maps?ll=51.480999,4.525734&spn=0.001807,0.005284&z=18&lci=com.panoramio.all

This is southeast of the Dutch city Roosendaal

Border as seen from Belgium









The border markers as seen from Belgium. The wooden sign is in the Netherlands









The border maker in which "K V" ( "Klaveren Vrouwke") was carved.









On the border, Belgium left, Netherlands right. Soldiers could wait in the house.









On the border, the other direction: Belgium right, Netherlands left.


----------



## nenea_hartia

DanielFigFoz said:


> http://maps.google.pt/?ie=UTF8&ll=5...xC2OFIIDWc9726JcXRhmfw&cbp=12,231.28,,0,10.11
> 
> ^^ A sign for British speed limits!!!!


I took this picture one year ago in Harwich, coming from Hoek van Holland. It is the first pic I took in the UK:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I've enver seen one of those in person edit: actually now i can remember entering the UK more times by car), but I've never taken the ferry to Hook of Holland, but I'd like to. In fact, I've never taken a cross-channel ferry


----------



## nenea_hartia

DanielFigFoz said:


> In fact, I've never taken a cross-channel ferry


Actually, it's kinda boring. We played cards to pass our time.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I have taken lots of ferries to Ireland though, but not recently and I have also taken a ferry from France to Ireland, I enjoy being on them


----------



## g.spinoza

Between the German town of Vorderriß and the Austrian town of Hinterriß, in the Karwendel region:









Let's zoom in the border area and we will find an unusual situation:








The border is actually crossed *three times* in just a little more than 1 km!

This is the first crossing coming from Germany, after the curve in the background you can see a bridge where the actual border is:









Immediately after the crossing you can find the sign "Republik Oesterreich - 1 km"... even if at that point you are already in Austria:









I didn't manage to get the other two crossings because they are not signed. Maybe next time 

One bit of a curiosity. Hinterriß and the valley are not reachable by car from the rest of Austria. They can only be accessed from Germany with this road, which is tolled (3.50 € during the day)

EDIT: It looks like my last statement is incorrect. There is a route to the rest of Austria, passing through Scharnitz, that doesn't involve going abroad:
http://maps.google.it/maps?f=d&sour...8975,11.312485&spn=0.142713,0.416794&t=h&z=12


----------



## Hanno1983

g.spinoza said:


> EDIT: It looks like my last statement is incorrect. There is a route to the rest of Austria, passing through Scharnitz, that doesn't involve going abroad:
> http://maps.google.it/maps?f=d&sour...8975,11.312485&spn=0.142713,0.416794&t=h&z=12


No, your statement was correct. The way to Scharnitz isn't a road but a pathway that can be used by Jeeps.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Vilarelho da Raia (P)/Rabal (E)










The stop sign's in Spain and the strange looking 40 sign is in Portugal. You can just about see the change in pavement and you can see the border stone.

From Histórias da Raia as normal


----------



## Gareth

Highwaycrazy said:


> I believe it doesn't stop there, it goes further....much further north in fact. Some real action. If that's the route you want to take again, bro.


Oh no. It cannot be!

And calling me 'bro' is a bit weird, considering your xenophobia towards me, purely because of what it says on my passpart.

But hey, what route do you speak of, 'bro'? Posting an international border on a thread called 'International border crossings' and the recieving a load of unprovoked, pretty much racist abuse for it?


----------



## brisavoine

It's done, France and Brazil are now officially connected by land. :banana:

The junction took place on May 28 at 10:30pm local time. Here are the pictures.


----------



## diablo234

^^ So I guess you are now planning to drive to Rio de Janeiro? :lol:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Not yet possible


----------



## desertpunk

*Warroad Minnesota*










Land crossing into Canada


----------



## Qwert

Slovakia and Ukraine are going to establish new outer Schengen border crossing between towns Čierna nad Tisou and Chop. It's next to the major railway border crossing and close to border crossing between Hungary and Ukraine Záhony - Chop (route E 573).

Map: http://maps.google.sk/maps?q=48.435...8.435579,22.137451&spn=0.731629,2.113495&z=10


----------



## zsimi80

Hun: Esztergom - Svk: Párkány (Štúrovo)
Danube river is the border.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Amazing it took almost 60 years to rebuild that bridge... destroyed in 1944, rebuilt in 2001.


----------



## seem

^^ Imo if our countries weren't communist back in these days they would rebuilt it in a shorter time. 

It wasn't just this bridge, there were probably about 50 bridges on Ipeľ/Ipoly river which were destroyed during the WW2 and never built again.Some of them were rebuilt in a last few years and many are going to be build in a next few years. :cheers:

Btw, if I am sure 2 bridges are under construction. Article about Ipoly bridges on wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipoly_(Ipeľ)_Bridges


----------



## SeanT

ChrisZwolle said:


> Amazing it took almost 60 years to rebuild that bridge... destroyed in 1944, rebuilt in 2001.


 It was rather a political issue.:bash:


----------



## NordikNerd

ChrisZwolle said:


> Amazing it took almost 60 years to rebuild that bridge... destroyed in 1944, rebuilt in 2001.


was there a ferry while the bridge was out of order ?


----------



## g.spinoza

Two borders one trip. First is border between Füssen, Germany and Reutte, Austria:









Second, the border between Austria and Italy at Brennerpass (combination of Italians going home for voting, Germans going to Gardasee and various other nationalities - French, Spaniards, Poles, even Latvians and Belarusians):









Very bad pictures made with my cellphone.


----------



## AtD

Not my pics - from Wikipedia - but I thought it was cool. The Detroit-Windsor tunnel between the US and Canada:



















Canada side:









US side:









What other underground road borders like this are there in the world?


----------



## g.spinoza

AtD said:


> What other underground road borders like this are there in the world?


- Grenztunnel Füssen (D-A) I posted before;
- Mont Blanc Tunnel (I-F);
- Gran San Bernardo Tunnel (I-CH);
- Col di Tenda Tunnel (I-F);
- Frejus Tunnel (I-F);
- Tunnel de la Giraude (I-F)
- Karawankentunnel (A-SLO)

These are the ones that I know of (and/or drove through)


----------



## x-type

Somport E-F
Aragnouet-Bielsa E-F

I am not sure if there are some other border tunnels in Europe


----------



## CNGL

I went through the Somport, Bielsa and Giraude tunnels, and I have a photo of just after the last one.


----------



## mgk920

AtD said:


> What other underground road borders like this are there in the world?


That is the only road border crossing in a tunnel in North America, but I know of two railroad tunnels - one near the Detroit-Windsor road tunnel and the other in the Port Huron, MI/Sarnia, ON area.

There are also several border-crossing railroad tunnels in Europe, including the famous Simplon (CH/I) and English Channel (GB/F) tunnels.

Mike


----------



## mgk920

g.spinoza said:


> - Grenztunnel Füssen (D-A) I posted before;
> - Mont Blanc Tunnel (I-F);
> - Gran San Bernardo Tunnel (I-CH);
> - Col di Tenda Tunnel (I-F);
> - Frejus Tunnel (I-F);
> - Tunnel de la Giraude (I-F)
> - Karawankentunnel (A-SLO)
> 
> These are the ones that I know of (and/or drove through)


^^
Are any of those the tunnel on the France-Italy border where the French A-8 meets the Italian A-10 right on the Riviera?

Mike


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Yes, it's the Giraude one.


----------



## Attus

NordikNerd said:


> was there a ferry while the bridge was out of order ?


Yes, I crossed the Danube several times by ferry between Esztergom and Stúrovo. The border and custom station was in the (Czecho-)Slovakian side.


----------



## NordikNerd

Attus said:


> Yes, I crossed the Danube several times by ferry between Esztergom and Stúrovo. The border and custom station was in the (Czecho-)Slovakian side.


was it free of charge ferry, how many minutes did it take ?


----------



## g.spinoza

If you want to see how Brennerpass was in early '80s you can take a look at this clip from Italian comedy movie "Bianco rosso e Verdone". The clip is in Italian, but I think it can be enjoyed also by non-speakers because 1-the main character doesn't speak at all, 2- the wife at the beginning speaks only German. It's the story of an Italian immigrant in Munich that goes back to Italy to vote. Any resemblance to real events and/or to real persons, living or dead, is purely NOT coincidental  






However, if you don't want to have a good laugh and just want to see the road, Brennerpass starts at 5:20


----------



## MattiG

x-type said:


> Somport E-F
> Aragnouet-Bielsa E-F
> 
> I am not sure if there are some other border tunnels in Europe


The Oresund connection between Sweden and Denmark may be counted. The connection consists of a bridge, an artificial island, and a tunnel. The tunnel section resides in Denmark.


----------



## g.spinoza

MattiG said:


> The Oresund connection between Sweden and Denmark may be counted. The connection consists of a bridge, an artificial island, and a tunnel. The tunnel section resides in Denmark.


So maybe it may not be counted, because the actual border is not in the tunnel.

However, two other tunnel borders in Europe are the Loibltunnel between Austria and Slovenia and the Buco di Viso between Italy and France, built in 1480 !!


----------



## NordikNerd

g.spinoza said:


> If you want to see how Brennerpass was in early '80s you can take a look at this clip from Italian comedy movie "Bianco rosso e Verdone". The clip is in Italian, but I think it can be enjoyed also by non-speakers because 1-the main character doesn't speak at all, 2- the wife at the beginning speaks only German. It's the story of an Italian immigrant in Munich that goes back to Italy to vote. Any resemblance to real events and/or to real persons, living or dead, is purely NOT coincidental
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, if you don't want to have a good laugh and just want to see the road, Brennerpass starts at 5:20


I'm looking for an italian comedy of an man going by train to Bavaria, he's sitting in a restaurant in Germany watching the world cup, Italy-Germany playing.

Italy scores a goal and the italian man stands up and applauding while the germans give him a stern look. Very funny comedy I have forgotten the name of the movie I think it was from the 70ies, probably Marcello Mastroianni playing the lead role.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ It's "Pane e cioccolata", but it was Switzerland not Bavaria and the leading role was played by a wonderful Nino Manfredi


----------



## Fuzzy Llama

g.spinoza said:


> If you want to see how Brennerpass was in early '80s you can take a look at this clip from Italian comedy movie "Bianco rosso e Verdone".


Hilarious! And the final scene - Poland and Italy have so much in common 
Is the whole movie as good as this clip? I may consider watching it in spare time.


----------



## NordikNerd

seem said:


> ^^ Imo if our countries weren't communist back in these days they would rebuilt it in a shorter time.


I visited Dresden of the DDR in 1987 and was surprised that so many buildings demolished by the war still were in ruins about 40 years after the war ended.



Fuzzy Llama said:


> Hilarious! And the final scene - Poland and Italy have so much in common
> Is the whole movie as good as this clip? I may consider watching it in spare time.


People from communist countries were not allowed to see Hollywood movies in those times. Allthough they could go and see french and italian movies Therefor french and italian movies like Pierre Richards Grand Blond, Luis de Funes and Adriano Celentano movies made huge success in those countries.

About the Pane e chocolata movie: It depicts the distinct difference between latin and germanic character/behaviour. Allthough the italian man is only a short distance from home, mentally he is very far away.


----------



## panda80

g.spinoza said:


> However, two other tunnel borders in Europe are the Loibltunnel between Austria and Slovenia and the Buco di Viso between Italy and France, built in 1480 !!


There is a tunnel also between Greece and Bulgaria, at the Exochi-Ilinden border crossing. However the tunnel is I think cut and cover so don't know if it can be counted.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is an intercontinental tunnel in Egypt (under the Suez canal). While not a border crossing per se, it is interesting.


----------



## g.spinoza

Fuzzy Llama said:


> Hilarious! And the final scene - Poland and Italy have so much in common
> Is the whole movie as good as this clip? I may consider watching it in spare time.


Yes the movie is awesome, but it is not all about the story of this character. There are two other episodes, all of them about roadtrips to go to vote: one is about a logorroic family man and his wife who cannot stand him anymore; the other is about a rather childish man and his witty grandmother. All of them are played by Carlo Verdone, but the other episodes are much more talked, and I don't know if subtitles are available somewhere.

But if you have the chance watch it, it is one of my favourite Italian comedy movies...

EDIT: There are english subs indeed!!
http://www.opensubtitles.net/en/movie-subtitles-searcher.daluh/3658891


----------



## Fuzzy Llama

g.spinoza said:


> EDIT: There are english subs indeed!!
> http://www.opensubtitles.net/en/movie-subtitles-searcher.daluh/3658891


Oh, I didn't doubt it for a moment. There are english subs to EVERYTHING. I bet that you could even find subs for some obscure, vintage German porn if you'd really want to


----------



## g.spinoza

There are indeed some movies for which I didn't find subtitles. For instance, the whole Andy Sidaris' "Bombs babe & bullets" series.

But I did find subs for an hilarious Polish movie "Seksmisja"


----------



## eucitizen

There is another itlaian film showing the Brenner italian border. It is about a man who goes to the Netherlands to transport drugs to Italy. In the film it is explained that there are no more borders´ controls among some countries while Italy still has. Sorry I dont remember the name of this film.
Then there is antoher italian film with Alberto Sordi that lives in Sweden and goes on holidays to Italy with his family but he is arrested at the border.Still I dont remember the name. Worth to see.


----------



## NordikNerd

eucitizen said:


> ,alberto Sordi that lives in Sweden


Sweden the land of fondue, yodeling and cuckoo clocks?

I think you mixed up Sweden with Switzerland


----------



## g.spinoza

eucitizen said:


> There is another itlaian film showing the Brenner italian border. It is about a man who goes to the Netherlands to transport drugs to Italy. In the film it is explained that there are no more borders´ controls among some countries while Italy still has. Sorry I dont remember the name of this film.
> Then there is antoher italian film with alberto Sordi that lives in Sweden and goes on holidays to Italy with his family but he is arrested at the border.Still I dont remember the name. Worth to see.


The latter is for sure "Detenuto in attesa di giudizio". I'm not sure about the first one...



NordikNerd said:


> Sweden the land of fondue, yodeling and cuckoo clocks?
> 
> I think you mixed up Sweden with Switzerland


No no, eucitizen is right, in "Detenuto in attesa di giudizio" Sordi plays an Italian man who lives in Sweden.


----------



## eucitizen

no no I didn´t mix up the countries. I just said that he lives in Sweden and for holidays he comes back to Italy. Where do you read I write about a border between Sweden and Italy? Can´t an italian live in Sweden? Can´t he go by car to Italy from Sweden? 
You should be more careful in accusing someone if you don´t know anything about the film.
Anyway here are some info about the film: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Prison_Awaiting_Trial


----------



## x-type

eucitizen said:


> There is another itlaian film showing the Brenner italian border. It is about a man who goes to the Netherlands to transport drugs to Italy. In the film it is explained that there are no more borders´ controls among some countries while Italy still has. Sorry I dont remember the name of this


I remember similar movie with that "Schengen scene" but it was about F-E border (or E-P maybe, I don't remember)


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Is it this one?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046872/


----------



## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Is it this one?
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046872/


nope, this one which i think of is much newr, probably from 1990es


----------



## Ingenioren

There's also one at the French - Monaco border  (And an underground car-park?)


----------



## Coccodrillo

What about a border through a dam or a squared one? The latter location even has a tunnel built through an old border, modified probably before the construction of the tunnel.

This one may also be a border tunnel, or very enar the border.


----------



## Ingenioren

Dam between Norway and Russia








http://www.panoramio.com/map/#lt=69.650222&ln=30.131035&z=4&k=2&a=1&tab=1


----------



## Escher

There is the Tunel Cristo Redentor, between Argentina and Chile. It´s at an elevation of 3.175m at the Andes and is 3.080m long.

I coudn´t resist and broke the law for the pic:


----------



## Palance

Bordercrossing Finland-Sweden near Pello. Also a border of timezones (in Sweden it is 1 hour earlier than in Finland).


----------



## Palance

Border crossing between Sweden and Norway in Riksgränsen.


----------



## Palance

Border crossing between Norway and Finland east of Karasjok. Both sides of the border have roadnumber 92. Again, also a border crossing of a time zone, since it is 1 hour later in Finland than in Norway. The second language on the roadsigns is Sami. (and Norwegian on the white signs for the customs)


----------



## g.spinoza

I'm planning a six countries travel next september (Italy-France-Spain-Portugal-Gibraltar-Andorra).. expect some (many) pics!


----------



## eucitizen

Great, so you can post here the border crossing La Jonquera, it should be already dismantled hopefully.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

eucitizen said:


> Great, so you can post here the border crossing La Jonquera, it should be already dismantled hopefully.


Oh no


----------



## Penn's Woods

Palance said:


> Border crossing between Norway and Finland east of Karasjok. Both sides of the border have roadnumber 92. Again, also a border crossing of a time zone, since it is 1 hour later in Finland than in Norway. The second language on the roadsigns is Sami. (and Norwegian on the white signs for the customs)


I'm surprised I didn't see a sign noting the time change. (But maybe I missed it.)


----------



## MrAkumana

eucitizen said:


> Great, so you can post here the border crossing La Jonquera, it should be already dismantled hopefully.


It is indeed dismantled since last December.
The track was repaved and the speed limit is 70 km/h on the area where the border used to be.

However, very often there are random checks at La Jonquera toll and Le Boulou toll. But, so far, I have not seen any cues as it was before.

This a photo from local newspaper taken last December when they were finishing the works:


----------



## Palance

Penn's Woods said:


> I'm surprised I didn't see a sign noting the time change. (But maybe I missed it.)


You didn't miss it, there was no sign. I have never seen such signs at European border crossings when also entering a different timezone. Perhaps because travellers 'should know' what the local time is.


----------



## Cori

Thermo said:


> Buddy Holly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well Ban.BL is being selective in posting pictures just to throw some more of his mud towards Albania or Albanians in general. Here's a photo of the border crossing between MNE and AL he didn't post:
> 
> Muriqan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^ What's that EU flag doing there? :no:
Click to expand...


MCN (Makedonia) is an EU protectorate as BiH( Bosnia Hercegovina) and ME (Crna Gora/Montenegro) and the current money in these three lands is Euro...

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides...+P6-TA-2007-0352+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN

http://www.euractiv.com/en/enlargement/macedonia-pm-greek-outburst-eu-summit/article-173577


----------



## Road_UK

MrAkumana said:


> It is indeed dismantled since last December.
> The track was repaved and the speed limit is 70 km/h on the area where the border used to be.
> 
> However, very often there are random checks at La Jonquera toll and Le Boulou toll. But, so far, I have not seen any cues as it was before.


Same as on the border crossing at Iruna. But beware, going Bordeaux bound, French customs are ready to waste your time at the 2nd and 3rd tolls...


----------



## g.spinoza

I'm planning a vacation in Spain, which involves going back through Andorra. I read somewhere that border controls there are enforced, is it true?

Also, is it true that the Envalira Tunnel toll can be paid only by credit card?


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> I'm planning a vacation in Spain, which involves going back through Andorra. I read somewhere that border controls there are enforced, is it true?
> 
> Also, is it true that the Envalira Tunnel toll can be paid only by credit card?


Question 1: Yes. French customs are well aware of cheap cigarettes and perfumes amongst other things being purchased in Andorra.

Question 2: I haven't got a clue.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, there are indeed border controls, both with Spain and France, but only outbound. I used that tunnel in 2008, but I pay tolls with credit card anyway, so I can't remember if you can also pay cash.


----------



## Мартин

Cori said:


> MCN (Makedonia) is an EU protectorate as BiH( Bosnia Hercegovina) and ME (Crna Gora/Montenegro) and the current money in these three lands is Euro...
> 
> http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides...+P6-TA-2007-0352+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN
> 
> http://www.euractiv.com/en/enlargement/macedonia-pm-greek-outburst-eu-summit/article-173577


First of all, its Macedonia, not Makedonia, and the country's international code is MKD. Macedonia uses the Macedonian denar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_denar, while Bosnia and Herzegovina uses the convertible mark http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina_convertible_mark. So, get your facts straight before you post something you know nothing about!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's a council of Europe flag by the way. Every European country is a member (including Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia) except for Belarus.


----------



## CNGL

Cori said:


> MCN (Makedonia) is an EU protectorate as BiH( Bosnia Hercegovina) and ME (Crna Gora/Montenegro) and the current money in these three lands is Euro...
> 
> http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides...+P6-TA-2007-0352+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN
> 
> http://www.euractiv.com/en/enlargement/macedonia-pm-greek-outburst-eu-summit/article-173577


Only Montenegro uses €uros, as well as Kosovo and Andorra. The three countries have adopted the euro unilaterally (Andorra has used €uros since the introduction in 2002, the other two since they declared independence, Montenegro in 2006 and Kosovo in 2008, although some people say that is still part of Serbia).


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> That's a council of Europe flag by the way. Every European country is a member (including Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia) except for Belarus.


??

Which is the Council of Europe flag? The blue with the stars?

Which, incidentally, gives me an opportunity to post this mess:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Supranational_European_Bodies.png

Get a headache just thinking about it....


----------



## g.spinoza

Don't worry, most of these associations don't matter. Only important ones are Eurozone, EU and Schengen (and BTW, why is San Marino put outside Schengen?)


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^I don't know all the flags anyway....


----------



## Nikkodemo

Excuse me my friends, have you posted any pics about Derby Line (US-Canada Border Line) ?


----------



## Road_UK

Nikkodemo said:


> Excuse me my friends, have you posted any pics about Derby Line (US-Canada Border Line) ?


I have seen them around on this thread.


----------



## odlum833

Irish border in late 1970's I think.


----------



## MrAkumana

Penn's Woods said:


> ??
> 
> Which is the Council of Europe flag? The blue with the stars?
> 
> .


That's the European Union flag, which you will see everywhere in the 27 EU states (on every single public building, document, internal and external frontier etc).

Just like g.spinoza said, the only 3 relevant agreements/asociations on everyday life are: *EU, Schengen zone, Eurozone:*

*EU states* are: Austria, Belgium , Cyprus , Estonia , Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg , Malta, Netherlands, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Poland, Czech Republic, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, UK, Denmark, Sweeden, Latvia, Lithuania)
EU it's important on everyday life because: The 27 EU states enjoy free movement of persons and products (even if you have to show your ID at the border in order to enter the following 5 states: UK, Ireland, Ciprus, Romania and Bulgaria). 


*The Eurozone* is basically the EU states that currently use the euro as currency: (Austria, Belgium , Cyprus , Estonia , Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg , Malta, Netherlands, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia and Spain)


And the* Schengen Zone* (no border checks at internal borders or when moving by plane from one schengen state to other schengen state) is basically all 27 EU states less UK, Ireland, Ciprus, Romania and Bulgaria plus non EU-states Norway, Iceland and Switzerland (3 states that that could teorically check you sistematicly for imported goods when arriving but not ask for your ID.. :nuts.

------

(by the way, "the flag with the red and white bars and the fifty plus stars is the OAS (Organization of American States) flag?"?) :lol:


----------



## Christophorus

It is in fact the flag of the Council of Europe, which was "occupied" by the european community (union)... here is more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Europe


----------



## shpirtkosova

CNGL said:


> Only Montenegro uses €uros, as well as Kosovo and Andorra. The three countries have adopted the euro unilaterally (Andorra has used €uros since the introduction in 2002, the other two since they declared independence, Montenegro in 2006 and Kosovo in 2008, although some people say that is still part of Serbia).


Kosovo adopted the Euro in 2002. The European flag represents the fact that Albania wishes to persue EU member status.


----------



## Nikkodemo

Road_UK said:


> I have seen them around on this thread.


Really?

I'd like to post that pics but if they're posted, I wanna know what page.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

MrAkumana said:


> That's the European Union flag, which you will see everywhere in the 27 EU states (*on every single public building*, document, internal and external frontier etc).


Does every single public building in your country have flags?


----------



## shpirtkosova

DanielFigFoz said:


> Does every single public building in your country have flags?


I would imagine for the government buildings and institutions only.


----------



## MrAkumana

Christophorus said:


> It is in fact the flag of the Council of Europe, which was "occupied" by the european community (union)... here is more:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Europe


You are right, my mistake. Thing is I believe nobody thinks of the council of Europe anymore when seeing that flag...





DanielFigFoz said:


> Does every single public building in your country have flags?


I mean, of course, goverment buildings. Most of them have it on most EU countries I have been to.


----------



## ScraperDude

Nikkodemo said:


> Really?
> 
> I'd like to post that pics but if they're posted, I wanna know what page.


I don't think anyone would mind if you reposted. The Derby Line pics are way back in this thread. Quite and interesting town.


----------



## Penn's Woods

I tried "Derby Line" in this site's search function, but only came up a five-year-old discussion (no pix) in the Canada forum, and mentions of it on this very page.

I've driven the Autoroute/Interstate (55 in Quebec and I-91) past Derby Line, but didn't think to get off and check out the town(s).

I did once cross here: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=45.379523,-70.809116&spn=0.051848,0.109692&z=13

Now that was remote. Was driving from Quebec City to Camden, a small, pretty, touristy town on the Maine Coast. There's no way to do that by freeway and I was in the mood to see some back country anyway. If memory serves, the first stretch of road - and not a short stretch either - once into Maine was gravel, but this was 1993. Huge parts of the interior of Maine are literally unpopulated - you'll find population figures of 0 for most of the "townships" - owned by timber companies who grow trees and harvest them to make wood and paper, but a lot of it's open for recreation too.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

MrAkumana said:


> I mean, of course, goverment buildings. Most of them have it on most EU countries I have been to.


Really? Even on hospitals, schools and post offices and the like?

In the UK only local council headquarters, parliament and some other random buildings have flags, in Portugal its the same, although some schools here and there have a flag (well my last one in Portugal did, but they only put it up when they could be bothered, which wasn't often


----------



## g.spinoza

DanielFigFoz said:


> Really? Even on hospitals, schools and post offices and the like?


In Italy post offices are formally private so no EU flag. As far as I remember, EU flags are shown only outside schools and administrative offices (no hospitals either).


----------



## MattiG

MrAkumana said:


> That's the European Union flag, which you will see everywhere in the 27 EU states (on every single public building, document, internal and external frontier etc).


No you do not.


----------



## Bad_Hafen

CNGL said:


> Only Montenegro uses €uros, as well as Kosovo and Andorra. The three countries have adopted the euro unilaterally (Andorra has used €uros since the introduction in 2002, the other two since they declared independence, Montenegro in 2006 and Kosovo in 2008, although *some people *say that is still part of Serbia).


some? Try majority of the planet.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Bad_Hafen said:


> some? Try majority of the planet.


Do you not have another life other than patrolling SSC to correct people's postings about the former Yugoslav region?


----------



## Bad_Hafen

No, that is my only life. I am glad that you worry. 
Sorry but off course, when reading topic on SCC and when someone writes BS I correct them, you are doing the same thing on topic that are of your interest. So I see no reason for you to judge me, plus I am directly involved in such topics that is my life, while most of correcting you do have nothing to do with your life or country.
Also there are so many people here that worry other's people business.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Most of the world does not give as shit about whether or not Kosovo is independent, a part of Serbia or annexed by Greenland. Its okay, don't worry about. Why should you care either, you're not Kosovan are you? I'm not saying that you shouldn't care about peoples conditions and rights and things but if they want to become independent


----------



## Bad_Hafen

^^I know and I agree with the part of no one caring, actually only Albanians and not all Serbs and some Bulgarians care about it. No one else. 
And I'm among those.


----------



## eucitizen

But I have itlaian lciense plate, maybe cause of that they never bothered me. 
In my history of travelling only austrians stopped twice, always at the Tarvisio border. They were nice and fast, one of them spoke to me in good italian. 
Otherwise I am usually checked for the vignette.


----------



## pobre diablo

pobre diablo said:


> I have a doubt. Does Chile have access to the Atlantic at the strait of Magellan? Does it have territorial waters in the Atlantic there?


^^^^^^


----------



## AtD

^ Interesting question, so I looked and got an even more interesting answer!

From what I gather from Wikipedia, the dispute was resolved by treaty in 1984. The Atlantic end of the straight is Argentine territorial water. Chilean vessels have navigation rights to exit the straight, but I'm not sure if that's just for access to Argentine ports or to access international water.










:dunno:


----------



## pobre diablo

^^ It makes sense that the Atlantic waters are Argentine since the land at the opening is Argentine.


----------



## Nikkodemo

^^ More detailed from Argentine side:


----------



## Bad_Hafen

Verso said:


> Spain v. Portugal-style comparison:
> 
> http://maps.google.si/?ll=45.968244...d=zpfoURHFO_Q0UvHEVkC1ig&cbp=12,68.84,,0,8.91
> 
> Slovenia - asphalt, Italy - gravel.


only 3m from there Italy has asphalt as well


----------



## alserrod

One detail... "Magallanes", as it is written in this map is a surname... and surnames are not traduced (at least if alphabet is the same). So then it is strange to read "Magellan".

Magallanes was the first captain who "started" the first world tour.
I said "started" because he was death on the trip and did not finished.

In August 1519, five ships depart Sanlúcar de Barrameda (near Cadiz) to start the first world tour. Each one had its captain but Magallanes was the expedition general captain.

Magallanes was, so then, who discovered the strait with its name between Argentina and Chile. It was the southern point of all the tour and storms made the journey very dangerous.

It is important to remember that Ushuaia, at Argentina, is the southern city all around the world (except bases on Antartic, of course).

When Magallanes was death, Juan Sebastian Elcano take the government of the expedition and arrives again to Spain (to the same city they departed... Sanlúcar) on september 1512. 
Only one ship arrived... but thanks to some goods the took on the trip it was enough for the finances of the trip, even that four ships were destroyed

and... of course, first world tour.






Nikkodemo said:


> ^^ More detailed from Argentine side:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

^^But you are translating his name from Magalhães aren't you.

Anyway, they used to translate peoples names in the past, but they discontinued that practice at some point, with the old translations remaining, such as Christopher Colombus


----------



## g.spinoza

In Italian we continue to call him "Ferdinando Magellano". I didn't even know he was Portuguese, for a quite long time I believed he was Italian.

Also John Cabot remains as a translation... he indeed was Italian, name was Giovanni Caboto.


----------



## tbh444

Thought I'd add a few pics I took in 2006 at the Rwanda-Tanzania border (the only one) at Rusumo Falls. Not much traffic here, a few lorries queued on either side, just a single lane bridge (which is just as well because traffic switches from right to left). Later crossed the Rwanda-Uganda border at Katuna (but got no photos) which was similar in layout but much busier - bit of a hassle with all passengers having to exit the coach, queue for ages, walk across, queue for ages again and re-board about an hour later.


----------



## alserrod

Fantastic!.

Used to see "near" photos, it is great to have some examples of places where we have less information.


----------



## Corvinus

Excellent contribution - African borders are way underrepresented in this thread.


----------



## alserrod

Someone who will take some pics of the border between Namibia, Zambia, Zimbabwe and Botswana should receive a prize from everyone of us.

And I explain:

- There are too many cases of "trifinium" (point of border for three countries) but nothing of quatrifinium (for four countries at the same case). The most similar case is between four states at US

- When the border is a river, the exact point of the border is considered the deeper point in the river (usually, but not always, in the middle of the river).

- Some big rivers can change one year to another. The river that separates Botswana from Zambia is one of them.

- United Nations wanted to built a road and bridge in this part of Africa to connect different countries but... he had the opposition of Namibia who argued that depending on possition of river, the brigde could cross his country...

- ... and brigde was not built

- There is a ferry shuttle (nothing special but they give priority for tourist and "foooooreing peopole) to connect countries between them in this corner of the Planet.


Has anyone been there?.
Should anyone take some photos... prize assured!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Nikkodemo

I wanna see some pics of border lines between Equatorial Guinea and its neighbors.


----------



## ScraperDude

Here is a bit of a dated story I found tonight while studying the Estcourt, Maine/ Estcourt, Quebec area where the US/Canada border cuts through numerous houses and leaves a few homes strictly in the US but only accessible via Canada. http://www.seacoastonline.com/articles/20030216-NEWS-302169975?cid=sitesearch

As much as I go into Canada I find the border more of a unnecessary stop more than protecting the U.S.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

alserrod said:


> Someone who will take some pics of the border between Namibia, Zambia, Zimbabwe and Botswana should receive a prize from everyone of us.


Formally Namibia doesn't border Zimbabwe. There is about 100 m of shared Zambia / Botswana border, hence no four-corners like in the United States (New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Utah).


----------



## g.spinoza

ScraperDude said:


> Here is a bit of a dated story I found tonight while studying the Estcourt, Maine/ Estcourt, Quebec area where the US/Canada border cuts through numerous houses and leaves a few homes strictly in the US but only accessible via Canada. http://www.seacoastonline.com/articles/20030216-NEWS-302169975?cid=sitesearch
> 
> As much as I go into Canada I find the border more of a unnecessary stop more than protecting the U.S.


 That's insane.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Formally Namibia doesn't border Zimbabwe. There is about 100 m of shared Zambia / Botswana border, hence no four-corners like in the United States (New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Utah).




Depending on the year...

Rivers on the jungle change every year and as I remarked, border is not on the middle of the river but on the deeper point of the river.
This can change and we have to consider the deeper point from Zimbabwe, Botswana and... from Namibia too.

There are some years where deeper point from Namibia can be far away than that narrow river border at Zambia-Botswana...

So then, it is impossible to declare official borders there. Some years there is a direct border, some years there is not... and nowadays, an international project by UN is blocked... and all traffic by local ferries (Do they make duty free shop on the short trip? :


----------



## alserrod

Andorra is a country located in the middle of the Pyrenees. It has 70.000 habitants (only about 12.000 with official nationality, rest are considered foreing) and there are, more or less, 30 km "corner to corner".

There are two main borders, one at S. Julia, to cross to Spain, and the other one, at Pas de la casa, to cross to France.

It is not an European Union member (but uses Euro and very closed we could see Andorra euro coins) and not part of Schengen treaty.

Anyway there are not special problems with transit of people from France or from Spain. There are passport customs on both sides but it is very strange you are stopped to request you documentation.

But... entering France or Spain by any border you will always be stopped to check your baggage (yes, no passport control but always, always baggage control).

This is because taxes at Andorra are really lowest than at Spain and France (as I commented in the thread of Spanish motorways).

Controls are focused on tobacco, alcohol, etc... which are much cheaper at Andorra and it is known there is smuggling. This is easy to control... all merchandises must cross France or Spain before entering Andorra. They are duty when they are on transit but Spanish and French governments know how many alcohol or tobacco enter on country (there is not aiport, sea harbour... and all merchandises enter by truck). Sometimes they make calculs... and... how many cigarettes have entered Andorra, and considering 200 units free duty for every visitor... Are they smoking day and night or it is tobacco that goes Spain or France by smuggling???????


But... there is a "duty free town at Spain" near Andorra with no control.
We could consider "the Spanish city with no law".

It is called "Os de Civis"










It is a valley than after one point comes back Spain again.










On the picture you can see yellow line for border between Spain and Andorra and... France in the north!!!!



Just 30 km to the main town in Spain but... two international borders out of Schengen treaty












There are no indications that you are entering Spain again. Otherwise, some tourist arrive there and when in the only hotel of the town they make the invoice including VAT and with the address indicating Spain, they are surprised!!!!












At Os de Civis citizens are allowed to buy anything at Andorra and sell at their town (just only 100 habitants). This includes tobacco, alcohol and other goods.
They are Spanish citizens and must pay VAT for anything (not too many shops on town but there is a hotel) as well as any other Spanish tax (workers must pay taxes as any other worker in any entreprise at Spain).


There are some ways to arrive Os de Civis:

1- Crossing twice Andorra border (entering and exit in just some kilometres).

2- By off-side road. This includes peaks over 2.500 and impossible on winter and part of autumn and spring

3- by air...


Andorra allows all traffic to Os de Civis as "duty" except for police and army.

Last time police had to go to investigate something at Os de Civis... they had to go on helicopter!!!! because they know they are not allowed to cross the border.

(maybe they arrive once every five years... this is why it is the "Spanish village with no law").


As I said, it is legal to import anything to Os de Civis without paying any tax... but should you take it and go over mountains to cross them will be considered as smuggling.


In fact, Andorra police only control two points of its border, the main road to Spain and the main road to France. They know that there are too many Spanish and French police on the border because customs.

Sometimes they had an emergency they block both borders (for example a crime inside the country... they block both borders and they know that person who is look for is inside the country).
They will not control if he tries to escape crossing mountains... because they know that it is sure he will find any Spanish or French police in his way



And finally... some pictures of Os de Civis














The border


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## mappero

ChrisZwolle said:


> Formally Namibia doesn't border Zimbabwe. There is about 100 m of shared Zambia / Botswana border, hence no four-corners like in the United States (New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Utah).


That's true


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## g.spinoza

gorefest said:


> how are the things in the south and the attitude from the italians who are living in that zone ? because I have some some very good serbian friends moved ( not in south Tirol ) .. in north ... in Telfs and they were telling me that even today when the borders are open and movement is freer than ever , thet still suffer from the fact that South Tirol is not austrian on papers and on the geographic map .


I'm Italian, not from South Tyrol though. Some of the German speakers in Tyrol want to go to Austria, but many more do not. South Tyrol now experiences a degree of economic and fiscal freedom that Austria will never grant. I'm personally quite against this self-rule, for many reasons:

1- people tend to forget that this self-rule was granted by Italy after a deadly series of bombings and terrorist attacks back in the '60s.
2- this is possibly the only territory in Europe, won after a war, which retained its original language and culture. Were it annexed by, say, France, now Herr Bauer would be Monsieur Cultivateur (check out Alsace and Lorraine).
3- it's not very nice to know that, for every 1000 euro of taxes, South Tyrolers enjoy 1200 euro back while a Lombard only 200.


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## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> 3- it's not very nice to know that, for every 1000 euro of taxes, South Tyrolers enjoy 1200 euro back while a Lombard only 200.


That happens in every country or region. There are always net spenders and net receivers that make up the balance. This happens in the European Union as well.


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## gorefest

^^ thanks for the explantions g.spinoza and ...Road_UK now i`ve understood a bit better now ...  well for the sake of mankind hope there won`t be any riots again ... 




MattiG said:


> This is the tripoint of Finland, Sweden, and Norway:
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Treriks.jpg[MG]
> 
> The tripoint is located in an unhabited area used mainly for hiking and reindeer husbandry. There is a walking path of 11 km from the tripoint to the closest road (21/E8 in Finland).
> 
> The interesting thing is that it was officially forbidden to walk around the tripoint until late 1995. There was an agreement between Norway and Finland as well as Norway and Sweden that pedestrians were allowed to cross the certain sections of the border. However, there was no such an agreement between Finland and Sweden, thus making it illegal to enter Sweden from Finland and vice versa. But entering Sweden from Finland via Norway was legal. Nobody obeyed that rule, and it was relieved in 1995. Currently, all the three countries belong the the Schengen area, and the whole problem has turned obsolete.[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> OMG !!!!! what a misserable little place in this nordic imensity for the 3 countries to meet .. hahaha.. i very interesting story about the crossing from Sweden to Findland:lol::lol: `ve google it and found some more pics ..
> 
> [IMG]http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae253/divian_02/26626507.jpg?t=1311087661
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don`t know what is with this rock or what it writtes on it


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> That happens in every country or region. There are always net spenders and net receivers that make up the balance. This happens in the European Union as well.


Correct. But usually net receivers are the most depressed areas, not the richest ones.


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## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> Part of _what_ is in Carinzia? Pontebba, Tyrol or Friuli?


We were talking about Pontebba. Part of it is in Carinzia Italiana.  Just kidding, but this area is the only part of former Carinthia that isn't called Carinthia any more (quite understandable though). In Austria and Slovenia we still have Carinthia(s) (just one part of it is often included in Upper Carniola, but not always).


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## g.spinoza

^^ I never heard of "Carinzia Italiana", that's why I asked in the first place. But I checked on the Wikipedia, you are right: Pontebba, Tarvisio and few other communes were included in the ancient Duchy of Carinthia.


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## devo

gorefest said:


> Don`t know what is with this rock or what it writtes on it


_Åpningen av Nordkalottruta, 1993_

Basically means "Opening of the Nordkalottruta/Artic Trail, 1993".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordkalottruta


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## gorefest

Ok , this is really scary :lol: but it is by far the tri point that i most want to visit ... is the tripoint Russia - Norway - Finland :cheers: .... we start here at the side of the border of Norway and Russia 


























































Finally there  


















and the Tripoint 


















the yellow stones marks the border of Russia you can not step further than those .... off to Siberia if you crose these  ... just kidding  








































































































and ...a short 4 minutes film on the journey to this tripoint


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## Verso

This tripoint is already in this thread somewhere. Why do you need a special permit to enter the frontier zone? Do all three countries require it?


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## gorefest

^^ well sorry to be honest there were too many posts i didn`t seen it all ... i assume my apollogies to those who posted before me about this ... as for what you said ... from what i`ve seen from the clips they guy posted , on finnish and norvegian side it wasn`t any problem to go ... but they could not film ... don`t kno why .... with russia of course we all know that you need visa to get into their side .... well :lol: i`ve seen on youtube that someone was either crazy either stupid enough to take a walk around the confinium ..... 





and the comment was .... 


> To anyone getting any ideas. Today, crossing the border into Russia, however briefly, as done here, will result in a large fine (approx. US$1000) from Norwegian authorities. The border - in the middle of a marsh in the middle of nowhere - is observed with CCTV surveillance and watchtowers. One old but now closed crossing point﻿ (Skafferhullet) even has a sign on the border fence a couple of meters from the actual border stating: "Do not urinate towards Russia". Absurd but exciting border control.


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## nenea_hartia

^ I agree, with Russia is always a problem, especially in the far north, near the strategic harbor of Murmansk.


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## Ingenioren

Strange there is no Soviet fence here - maybe one further inside russia?

Like this:








http://www.panoramio.com/photo/140718


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## nenea_hartia

^ Great fence . 
Can you imagine, the Russian embassy in Bucharest (Soviet style building) has an electric fence :crazy: ?? Hello, comrades, this is the 21th century!!


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## alserrod

It is not Berlin Wall... but similar (or strongest!!!)


Spain has two cities in the north of African continent. They are the only European Union parts on the African continent... apart of Reunion (France), Madeira (Portugal) and Canary (Spain), for expample.
But Ceuta and Melilla are inside the continent, not separated by any ocean... just some neutral metres.

And... being inside that country you are inside European Union... and all inmigrants know it.

Any ferry between any city of Maroc and any city of Southern Spain will be international with passport and custom controls... but any ferry between these two cities (Ceuta and Melilla) and southern Spain is considered as a domestic ferry... such Barcelona-Palma de Mallorca, for example, with no police control.

So then, entering there is a GREAT gate to anywhere in European Union... because after that border there are no controls until the last corner of Finland!!!!!

The pression of inmigrants is easy to imagine. There are a lot of people to try to get the European continent on little boats, crossing the sea, but... they can enter European Union just crossing a little border...


The restrictions made by Spanish police are according to that pression:










This photo is from Melilla. Two six metres walls with a lane between them to help movements of police and a road closed to the second wall. With stairs or similar is possible to cross the first one but will be difficult to cross the second one (distance between them is calculated to be as near as to be more difficult to cross the second one).



And.... anyway... borders are not closed, just "controlled".

This is the most used custom at Melilla 










People with passport and Visa, if required are allowed to enter the city with no problem. There are too many controls but a lot of people enter everyday, as well as merchandises.

The issue of merchandises is very important in this way... Melilla needs Moroccan merchandises (most of goods cheapest than if being transported from southern Spain by ferry) and Morocco needs Melilla because is an important market where they can sell a lot of goods and... a little more expensive

There are people who are allowed to enter everyday, allowed to work but not residence. This is... every evening... back home.

There are pregnant women who enters legally to stay all the day because if the baby is born there... they can say he/she was born in Spain (he/she will have Morocco nationality but nobody knows if in future there will be a law about people who was born inside European Union even if different nationality... and those are born inside Spain...)

On the other hand, Morocco doesn't require passport for movements about 100 km for Melilla and Ceuta residents. 
This was explained by a mate at work who was born there and his family keeps there. 
When Spanish cars had different plates depending of the province, the Morocco police allowed only Identity card (not the passport) if CE or ML appeared on the plate. Now they allow in any case (it is impossible to see where it comes the car by the plate) but they can ask you the documentation. If you are resident in those cities and have only the Id. card, no problem. In any other case, needed the passport.
And... only 100 km around. My mate said once he got in a Morocco prison because more than 100 km and no passport.
For the rest of Spanish citizens and all European Union citizens, there are no restriction to entry but... passport required!!.


In Spain, citizens from Canary islands, Ceuta, Melilla and Balearic Islands have 50% discount on planes and ferries for domestic travels (not international, where they pay full fare).

My mate said me he had been to Melilla with the 50% discount for a lot of years. Melilla airport is 5 km away from city centre (and just, just in the border).

But... since some years ago... he flies to Nador airport with Ryanair. There is no discount, but Madrid-Melilla with Iberia and 50% discount is much more expensive than a Madrid-Nador with Ryanair. The airport is now 35 km away. He requires his parents to go there and has to cross twice the border (arrives to Moroccan airport, custom controls, 30 km... and Spanish border again).
Just 30 km away... but a nice "secondary airport" for this city.


Similar to the case of Ceuta. Just 14 km from Europe but it is very difficult to put an airport. There is only a place for helicopters, but expensive. People use ferry to Algeciras where there are high speed trains to Madrid, or shuttle to another city on the south.

But... Tanger airport, at Morocco, is not very far away... and citizens and... Ryanair have discovered that can be used by passengers. There is also a Madrid-Tanger with this company.




Very curious... 
A wall as controlled as the Berlin wall, but facilities for controlled border crosses in both directions.


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## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> 3- it's not very nice to know that, for every 1000 euro of taxes, South Tyrolers enjoy 1200 euro back while a Lombard only 200.


There is a lot to say for that. South Tirol has its special status, but a lot of Southern Italians are benefiting from that. That started when Mussolini moved a lot of southerners to the north, and northerners to the south in an attempt to crack down on the German language in South Tirol. Even though in the northern area of South Tirol, lets say from Brenner to Sterzing and all the side valleys are all mainly German speaking, in the capital Bozen Italian is becoming more and more the primary language. This also due to the many immigrants from the south, who are now enjoying a flexible tax system. It will always stay like that, in order to avoid Basque situations. German speakers are already making a fuss about whether footpath signs in the Zillertaler Alps on the Italian side should display Italian as well, or German only. It seems that even the Government in Rome are getting involved in these pointless yet heated discussions. (I live on the Austrian side of the Zillertaler alpes, and the signs look exactly the same as on the Italian side, a good two hour walk, but a lot of the names in Italian are crossed out. It really doesn't take a lot to create a shitstorm around here on both sides of the border)


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## MattiG

Verso said:


> This tripoint is already in this thread somewhere. Why do you need a special permit to enter the frontier zone? Do all three countries require it?


There is a frontier zone at the Finland-Russia frontier on the Finnish side. Finland was enforced to establish it at the Treaty of Paris (1947) after being on the losing side in the WW II. The default width is 3 km on the land and 4 km on the sea. Currently, the zone is rather narrow in many places, and most of the funny rules have been relieved. (For example, the Treaty of Paris forbids Finland to illuminate the area of Soviet Union. Earlier, there were traffic signs to ban using high beams in the cars on the roads close to the frontier if there was a risk that the light would reach the frontier.)

Nowadays, the initial concept of frontier zone is turned obsolete, but Finland wants to keep it, because it helps controlling the frontier. The zone is marked very clearly, and the access is strictly (but invisibly) controlled.

Earlier, the Finland-Norway-Russia tripoint could be approached from Norway only, because the frontier zone extended to the Finnish-Norwegian frontier:










(Frontier zone marked as a shaded area.)

Currently, there is a narrow gap between the frontier zone and the Finnish-Norwegian border making it possible to enter the tripoint in Finland, too.


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## gorefest

MattiG said:


> (Frontier zone marked as a shaded area.)


thanks for the informations  ...any idea where the checkpoints are ? found one on maps on google ... maaaaaaan you gotta love those russians :lol::cheers: and how they makes understeand that the Iron Curtain is not really gone as you think and that







:lol::lol: kidding of course .. I have a very big respect for russians , their nation , their country and culture , but still when it comes to borders they really frightens me  


same panels on the Raja-Jooseppi checkpoint .... it seems to be standard marks for finnish people when it comes to russian border 

































and one taken from the russian side ...










and the same marks near the Syuvyaoro checkpoint

















and some really interesting pictures .... not far away from the street crossing , is the cross border point for timber tracks only ....


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## MattiG

gorefest said:


> thanks for the informations  ...any idea where the checkpoints are ? found one on maps on google ...


There are eight permanent checkpoints for road traffic between Finland and Russia (from south to north):

- Vaalimaa (road 7/E18)
- Nuijamaa (13)
- Imatra (62)
- Niirala (9, ex 70)
- Vartius (89)
- Kuusamo (866)
- Salla (82)
- Raja-Jooseppi (91)

In addition, there are a few temporary ones, mainly for timber transport.


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## NordikNerd

are there any Quadra-points ?


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## alserrod

Road_UK said:


> This also due to the many immigrants from the south, who are now enjoying a flexible tax system. It will always stay like that, in order to avoid Basque situations. German speakers are already making a fuss about whether footpath signs in the Zillertaler Alps on the Italian side should display Italian as well, or German only.



Just a remark... Spain has 17 autonomous regions (and 2 autonomous cities: Ceuta and Melilla).
All the 17 regions have their own parliament, self laws, competences, etc.. in some (or a lot of...) areas. There are not two exact systems and Basque could be the most advanced in that way... but there are 16 more.
Health personnnel and hospitals, education, most of roads... are managed by regions instead of central government.
And the region can have, of course, a government and parliament "with a different colour" comparated with the Spanish government (different interestes, different priorities... or just different policy).
Basque region was the first one to be made in the last 70s (but in three years all of them where made).

Some of them have a second official language (or a third one... because in one corner of Catalonia there is a third official one)... but having it or not, the autonomous situation is the same.

Maybe the case with more differences is the environmental. Each region has different laws, and sometimes police who is moved city to city has to study the regional law to know which is a delit and which is allowed everywhere (every region makes the laws depending of the characteristics of its territory but must be known for people who moves and applies them)


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## MattiG

Verso said:


> Storskog/Boris Gleb (E105) border crossing:


Those Norwegian translations... They have meant to write 'No Unathorized Entry' (to the checkpoint area).

A sign at Alta Camping: 'For domestic furniture only'. Meaning: 'For dish washing only'.


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## alserrod

Verso said:


> What do you mean? The Nova Gorica train station lies entirely in Slovenia, so you enter it "from the Slovenian side" in any case. :dunno: Unless you mean, if you come from the west (Italy). Well, there're still a few meters between Italy and the train station (there's a road inbetween) and since we're both in Schengen, you can cross the border, of course (but not by car, only on foot, however you can park in Italy and go to Slovenia on foot, it's just a few meters).


So... signals pointed that the square was allowed only to walk, not for border crossing have dissapeared?


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## gorefest

this is the natural tripoint from Ukraine - Moldova and Romania ....










The Moldavian border station at Criva is the starting-point of a path leading to the Moldovan-Romanian-Ukrainian tripoint.








( and here is the Ukrainian side 











The route goes in this direction, along the Moldavian-Ukrainian border.










It passes Moldavian-Ukrainian border marker #3 ....










... a Ukrainian watchtower,











.. and Moldavian-Ukrainian border marker #2.










Next the path crosses a railway track,










.. border signs on trees, " Stai , frontiera de stat = Halt ! state fronteer (RO) " 











.. and Moldavian-Ukrainian border marker #1.










A barbed-wire fence is the final obstacle before the border river Prut,










... where the wet tripoint is, halfway between the Moldavian-Ukrainian riverside and the corresponding Romanian territory on the opposite side of the river.


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## g.spinoza

Alex Trst said:


> 1 - Inhabitants never killed voluntarily, and many scandals have been removed from public eye, but the international commmunity was aware that many Carabinieri were killed by persons, who later came out were personnel of Italian secret services, just to put a dark light on Germans of Tyrol.


Yes, sure. And we never been to the Moon, Area 51 contains aliens and Tom Cruise put a gerbil in his butt.



> 2 - Conquered after WWI, after which the Italian regime did everyhting was possible to stop people speaking German. After WWII the inhabitants reacted, so Italy, which lost the war, had to slowly give up the idea.


False again. After WWI autonomies were mantained, as well as German schools and everything (December 1st, 1919). It is just after the Fascism came to power that things changed.



> 3 - That's the price Italy has to pay to keep that territory under her sovereignity, its as simple as that. You don't pay anymore? Ok, goodbye Italy! That's a fact!


That would be ok to me. But Austrian don't want them, and if they were to be independent, they will succumb in a generation in this globalized world, without Rome giving them loads of money.



> Dear Verso, don't waste your time, that's just Italian propaganda, which unfortunately is still going today in Italy on tv and newspapers. They completely ignore what they've done to Slovenes, Croats (and newly added Italians from Trieste too!) who fell under Italian sovereignity in the 20s and 30s, they removed from thei rmemories the fact that they invaded Yugolsavia in 1941, occupied Ljubljana with fire and violence, and all the rest.
> From their point of view, it looks that poor Italians are so brave and innocent, and all the others are almost animals.


Most stupid thing I ever read.
I never said that, and everybody knows that Italy fought on the bad side in WWII, occupied Yugoslavia and raped and killed. But we are not talking about that, that was a war. War is wrong, is dirty, such things happen. 
We are talking about peacetime culture assimilation, which is a different thing.


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## Ingenioren

Verso said:


> Storskog/Boris Gleb (E105) border crossing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/4932767 by kokodrilio


I was quite set off by the sign myself when i was there. But tourists can cross.


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## Hanno1983

g.spinoza said:


> No no, get the fact straight. Italy had already granted in 1948 a whole set of concessions and autonomy to Region Trentino-Alto Adige (which at the time was considered as one and inhabited by Italian-speaking majority). We had already complied with Allies's obligations.
> But South Tyrolers weren't happy with that, they wanted more and went terrorist. Of course it was not the will of the majority of South Tyrolers, but they succeeded: in 1972 Italian government granted them the autonomy they enjoy today, mostly because of the terrorism.


Well, if Italian government gave autonomy mainly because of terrorism than I ask why they didn't react earlier, before radicalization in South Tyrol.
The answer is that they hoped to assimilate next generation of South Tyrolians. And this strategy was wrong.
You wrote about Alsace-Lorraine. French assimilation-strategy succeeded because most Alsatians in their hearts felt French culture more modern than German one. They didn't plan to become French speaking. But they did more and more.
This was not possible in South Tyrol because Tyrolians see themselves better than Italians in nearly all points. There isn't any attractiveness in Italian way of life for them. Same problem was in Poland with German minority between WWI and WWII. If Silesians would have been allowed to stay after 1945 Poland would have got a very big problem at the latest in 1989.
So my thesis is that "peaceful" assimilation is only possible if a major part of minority accept majority culture as attractive. Otherwise only forced assimilation or forced moving is possible. Both are no solutions for democratic governments.
So what is your problem with South Tyrol? If I were Italian I would be proud of it.



> So? Was Istria happy with Yugoslav rule? They now have autonomy but it's just a façade, (almost) no Italian speakers remained there. Italians were just expelled, killed or assimilated, and nobody in Europe moved a finger. We let the German speakers live well even if they killed our people, and we're the bad guys. Come on.


There is one big mistake in your argumentation. South Tyrolian cultural autonomy and bilingualism is not a present Italy gave to South Tyrolians. It is a duty of all democratic countries against autochthonous minorities.
I am surprised that you compare democratic Italy after WWII with communist Yugoslavia.
I've got respect for this solution you found for South Tyrol. It is taken as positive example all over Europe. But you are wrong if you think that South Tyrolians have to be thankful. And I am sad that you see a problem that they still are not "real" Italians and speak German better than Italian. They are loyal citizens of Italy. I see no problem in their different culture.
Only problem in my opinion is ethnic devision of society, especially in Bozen and Meran.
Why don't you see cultural enrichment South Tyrolians give to Italy?




> I will be more than happy to let them go. Almost nobody in Italy consider them Italians, and financially they are just a burden. But if they do secede, they will have to leave Bolzano behind, 'coz it is majority of Italian speakers.


I think leaving Italy is not a priority to most South Tyrolians. Most of them are ok with autonomy, open borders and so on. Positive result of EU by the way.
Problem is more at people like you with old-fashioned national understanding. But these times are over. Relict of those times is Italian speaking majority in Bozen as a result of fascist Italianization.


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## g.spinoza

^^I lost all interest in this discussion, so I'll be back on topic.

Triple point between Venezuela, Guyana and Brazil, on the top of Mt. Roraima:









(from wikipedia).

A curiosity: this _tepui_ (highland) was conquered by man in 1884, and for its inaccessibilty it developed a unique fauna, different from that of the surrounding environment. This fact ignited the fantasy of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who then wrote "The lost world" about an expedition which finds prehistoric wildlife on top of an unexplored tepui.


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## Verso

alserrod said:


> So... signals pointed that the square was allowed only to walk, not for border crossing have dissapeared?


Yes, probably. We're both in Schengen, after all. Crossing the border is only prohibited where there's some physical barrier (e.g. you aren't supposed to climb over a fence, whether it lies on the border or not, and there's still a lot of fence between Nova Gorica and Gorizia AFAIK).

http://maps.google.si/?ll=45.955323...=-h8-QVnpHJIWxEGg2fSoUw&cbp=12,105.74,,0,2.81



MattiG said:


> Those Norwegian translations... They have meant to write 'No Unathorized Entry' (to the checkpoint area).


But why not? How am I supposed to cross the border, if I'm not allowed to enter the border-crossing area? Unless they mean you shouldn't enter the area unless you have intention to cross the border. But I think I've also read elsewhere that the Norwegian-Russian border may only be crossed for business purposes.


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## Verso

^^


Ingenioren said:


> I was quite set off by the sign myself when i was there. But tourists can cross.


Crap, I didn't notice this post.  You were there and you crossed the border as a tourist? That's great. Where in Russia did you go? Nikel, Murmansk?


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## alserrod

The "P line".

While Spanish fascism government, in the 50s, after the WW II, army was worried because increasing security on borders with France. Something like if all Europe will be allied to attack Spain or similar.

It had no sense because there are too many coast kilometres to invade, very difficult to control and not easy to defend.

But the army made the "Linea P", which was hidden for a lot of year. It was not a "State secret" but you need authoritation to be near the border. Maybe someone who lived in the area knew about some local improvements in army defense... but they will never know they were all around the border. More or less 5-10 km away from the border.

They were some hundreds (not known exactly how many) of little bunkers) to be used for defense. They were pointed the north.

And... it is very strange because the border between France and Spain is mainly (not always but 95% of cases) the limit between rivers to Mediterranean and Atlantic, and takes sometimes peaks over 3000 metres.
If you have a look on a map, you can see central Pyrenees. Think that Bielsa tunnel was openned in the 70s... so from Portalet pass mountain until Val d'Aran there was no borders. 
A great chain of peaks concatenated...

But Spanish army made these bunkers:











They were not used, just keeped for if needed to be used only (never needed of course).

Government never admited they had made an important investment in this defense line... but years passes and someone can enter on them if the wants.
There are some documents made about them but just in order of search.



And... as I said before, it was absolutely allowed to cross border. Foreing citizens could be enough with passport, depending of nationallity, and Spanish citizens... just needed the passport (Government made an internal document, still valid, only allowed inside the country and... instead of giving visas to exit the country... they give a passport)


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## alserrod

And... nothing related with roads (thanks a God... looking the place) but with borders.

Treserols is the third highest peak at Pyrenees, but maybe the most known.
Most of people will know it because the translation into French: Mont Perdu (or translation of translation into Spanish: Monte Perdido). This translation comes because it is not seen from France but "it is know there is a mountain". 
This is, there are two French valleys that start in that mountain. It is not possible to see it (except from near the border) but it is obvious there is a high mountain closed there. That's why "Mont Perdu" (Lost Mountain in English).

It is also the biggest calcareous peak area in the world. It is very important for people who goes on mountains or just trekkings because as calcareous montains, there are no water fonts anywhere!!!.

In 1997 Unesco included "Monte Perdido - Pirineos" as World heritage and this includes the six valleys from this peak. Two of them in France and four of them in Spain. All of them are part of a Spanish or French national Park... but the six together with the mountain are an Unesco world heritage.


Some photos:



Western view from the peak. It is the Ordesa valley (mountains in the right are border to France)












The same photo but upside down (peak from Ordesa valley)












the "Great fall of Gavarnie" (river starts at this peak)










It is one out of the two valleys in France and... the first tourism hotel in the world (this is, used not for trips or business but for tourism stages) was built there.



The Pineta valley. The photo is taken very closed to the border. This valley is called the "green valley" (and if in Pyrenees something is remarked as green... it must be very green!!!!)











And finally... the "faster way" to go from Ordesa valley in Spain to Gavarnie valley in France:















As I said... thanks that it is related with borders but nothing with roads.




And a question. Is it the only Unesco human heritage located in two different countries at the same time?


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## Verso

^^ Nice rocks.




E75 in Norway (right after Finnish border): http://maps.google.si/?ll=69.913217...=2N0RIhP4e1vhM79MV0j-iw&cbp=12,40.71,,0,10.98

Take 2 steps forward and you'll see 3 different seasons (autumn/fall, spring or summer, and winter). :nuts:


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## CNGL

^^ Really :nuts:

Spanish-French border at Bielsa-Aragnouet Tunnel, A-138 (Not a motorway ) and D173: http://maps.google.es/maps?ll=42.732167,0.195866&spn=0,0.038495&z=15&layer=c&cbll=42.732381,0.195804&panoid=4B1Q88C6LKCEeGrQVYgOzw&cbp=12,8.51,,0,13.81


----------



## alserrod

Maybe it could be an off topic but considering that border crosses by the middle...


Pyrenees are between France and Spain (and Andorra in the middle). In most of cases are the mountains passes which make as border.

In the central Pyrenees at the French side there is the National Park of Pyrenees (where last week we could watch it at the Tour de France).

In the central Pyrenees at the Spanish side there are two different National Parks (Ordesa in the region of Aragon and Aiguestortes in the region of Catalonia) as well as other Natural parks (less laws about environment but... when you know them, they are as nice as the national ones).


But... in the 1990s it was proposed as Human herigate. Unesco said.. OK but we do not understand about borders!!! and the reason argued by Ordesa national park to be Human heritage should apply too for a part in the French side.

In 1997 in was included as Human Heritage... and this is my question about if it is the only Unesco H.H. that it is located in two countries. French side is not big in this case... but there is. In fact, the photo of the fall of Gavarnie is at France. The rest are in Spain. Looking to the main mountain, there is a very small lake in the left of the mountain. That's the begining of the river that falls at Gavarnie!!! (maybe located just 2 km from border).

In the thread about Spanish motorways someone asked about a route that will approach this point.

These pics can be useful, maybe, to organize a little trip there.


----------



## ScraperDude

hofburg said:


> it's all europe now, we shouldn't be too much into unsolved history, it will be never solved right.


I agree! However since it's all Europe now why not let these micro regions become their own states? Such as South Tyrol, Trieste, etc...... more border crossings kay: NEW ones at that


----------



## Verso

alserrod said:


> and this is my question about if it is the only Unesco H.H. that it is located in two countries.


No, there're many: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_in_Europe (Europe only, there're more in the world).


----------



## rheintram

g.spinoza said:


> It's not really like that.
> South Tyrol resources are allocated separately for Italian and German speakers, on a provincial basis. So, since 70% of the population is German-speaking and 30% Italian-speaking, resources are allocated accordingly. But this is done, as I said, on a provincial basis: so in Bolzano/Bozen, where percentages are reversed (70% of Italian speakers), resources are allocated as in the rest of the province, favouring German speakers even more. This is intolerable, more considering, as I mentioned, that this agreement was reached using bombs and murders.
> 
> It's apartheid, born with violence.


All of it started with Italians stealing the land, disregarding the will of the people there and then brutally oppressing the German-speakers in the fascist era. So cry me a river about those poor Sicilians in Bozen who came as occupiers.

Edit: An interesting fact, however, is that Hitler, that soab, even supported italianization of South Tyrol...


----------



## MattiG

Verso said:


> But why not? How am I supposed to cross the border, if I'm not allowed to enter the border-crossing area? Unless they mean you shouldn't enter the area unless you have intention to cross the border. But I think I've also read elsewhere that the Norwegian-Russian border may only be crossed for business purposes.


An inaccurate translation from Norwegian to English only. Do not draw false conclusions on it.


----------



## Ingenioren

Verso said:


> ^^Crap, I didn't notice this post.  You were there and you crossed the border as a tourist? That's great. Where in Russia did you go? Nikel, Murmansk?


I didn't bother with it since i had an ambitious travel-plan couldn't cross without acquiring a visa from the consulate in Kirkenes. It would take a full day wait (maybe) and it would cost too much money aswell as car insurance. I have a wish of going back there and going trough with it someday. I have crossed to Russia at train (Vainikkala) tough... 









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/23187251


----------



## hofburg

CNGL said:


> ^^ Really :nuts:
> 
> Spanish-French border at Bielsa-Aragnouet Tunnel, A-138 (Not a motorway ) and D173: http://maps.google.es/maps?ll=42.732167,0.195866&spn=0,0.038495&z=15&layer=c&cbll=42.732381,0.195804&panoid=4B1Q88C6LKCEeGrQVYgOzw&cbp=12,8.51,,0,13.81


^nice valley outside.


----------



## alserrod

CNGL said:


> ^^ Really :nuts:
> 
> Spanish-French border at Bielsa-Aragnouet Tunnel, A-138 (Not a motorway ) and D173: http://maps.google.es/maps?ll=42.732167,0.195866&spn=0,0.038495&z=15&layer=c&cbll=42.732381,0.195804&panoid=4B1Q88C6LKCEeGrQVYgOzw&cbp=12,8.51,,0,13.81




Opened in 1976. It is a more than 3 km tunnel on 1800m over sea level.



Without it... 100 km direct line from Portalet border to Les border and about 300 km in Spain or 200 km in France between both borders.


----------



## CNGL

hofburg said:


> ^nice valley outside.


Which one? The Spanish (with waterfall) or the French?


----------



## alserrod

Upside down... all valleys from that mountain have at least one waterfall but in the pictures I posted the only one appears is the Gavarnie waterfall, located in France, not in Spain.


----------



## alserrod

And... just in the middle of Ordesa and Gavarnie valleys we have this "international border".

It could be one of the most famous because smuggling in both directions.

Smugglers made the journey while the night... and they had to cross the way with iron sticks I posted to get there in the nigh.

Spanish police just controlled access to the valley. It was easy.

French police used to stay hidden after the natural wall... and arrest anyone who crosses the border there. It was very easy, even on the night, to control the area from several points in the French side.


----------



## mappero

Verso said:


> ^^ Nice rocks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E75 in Norway (right after Finnish border): http://maps.google.si/?ll=69.913217...=2N0RIhP4e1vhM79MV0j-iw&cbp=12,40.71,,0,10.98
> 
> Take 2 steps forward and you'll see 3 different seasons (autumn/fall, spring or summer, and winter). :nuts:


Yeahh, one of the longest E-road in Europe 

E75


----------



## alserrod

Why 3 diifferent seasons?


----------



## Verso

Slovenian-Italian border on the Adriatic coast:









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/30368442 by cippi ts


----------



## alserrod

Curious photo.

In the case of Portugal/Spain it is impossible to have that photo as well as the two "coast borders" are separated by rivers, so a bridge (in the south it is a very nice bridge) is the border.


----------



## bogdymol

Here is an interesting border road. M15 (E87) main road in Ukraine goes for 7 km on the teritory of Rep. of Moldova. How is the situation there? I see a (border?) check-point where this road meets the road to Palanca (MD).


----------



## DanielFigFoz

alserrod said:


> Curious photo.
> 
> In the case of Portugal/Spain it is impossible to have that photo as well as the two "coast borders" are separated by rivers, so a bridge (in the south it is a very nice bridge) is the border.


The scenery is much nicer at the northern end though, the Spanish side really looks beautiful from Caminha


----------



## nenea_hartia

bogdymol said:


> Here is an interesting border road. M15 (E87) main road in Ukraine goes for 7 km on the teritory of Rep. of Moldova. How is the situation there? I see a (border?) check-point where this road meets the road to Palanca (MD).


It seems that Palanca territory was already ceded by Moldova to Ukraine, in a very strange and controversial exchange of territories :nuts:. 
We're talking about 7,7km of the Odesa-Reni highway and the land in the nearby. See here.


----------



## Verso

nenea_hartia said:


> http://www.azi.md/en/story/18618





> In exchange for the highway portion, Moldova received an extra territory to broaden its access to the Danube River.


Cool.


----------



## alserrod

DanielFigFoz said:


> The scenery is much nicer at the northern end though, the Spanish side really looks beautiful from Caminha





International bridge in the motorway Faro-Huelva

Left: Portugal, Right: Spain











In the Spanish side, closed to the border there is a "Parador" (luxurious hotel, property of the Government), which are similar to the Pousadas.
This is its page:

http://www.parador.es/es/tratarFichaParadorCabecera.do?parador=012

In the part of photos there are someones taken from the hotel where it appears the bridge (cloooosed) and the end of the Guadiana into the Atlantic


----------



## alserrod

And... 700 km away from the last photo, the border at Caminha/A Guarda.

This photo is taken from Portugal. It appears on the left, the Atlantic ocean and on the other side, Spain.










First international bridge is a little far away than on the south.

And... in the Spanish side there is also a Parador (at Tui)

http://www.parador.es/es/tratarFichaParadorCabecera.do?parador=084

Photo of that hotel, the river and the Portuguese side











As I said, there are no "beach border" between Spain and Portugal.

Between Spain and France, the Atlantic border is also on a river, similar to Portugal. The Mediterranean border isn't... but it is not a "beach border" because the border line is on a cliff...


----------



## alserrod

And... one of the borders between Morocco and Spain at Ceuta. Photo taken from Morocco, Spain is after the wall (remember this border is external Schengen)


----------



## g.spinoza

Border between Austria and Germany on the top of the Zugspitze, highest mountain in Germany (2962m):


----------



## nenea_hartia

^ Is it you?


----------



## g.spinoza

Yep, I'm usually against posting my pics on the net, but I wanted to post a pic that didn't look like taken from another place in the net...


----------



## Verso

I was there two years ago. Interesting place.


----------



## Ron2K

Union's End - tripoint between South Africa, Namibia and Botswana. On my list of places to visit.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Strange place to put a no-entry sign!

Beautiful scenery!


----------



## alserrod

Nice pic....

We know a lot of borders... but few of them from Africa.


Is there any custom control or there is free transit?


----------



## Ron2K

Access to the area is from South Africa. It's in a transfrontier wilderness area between South Africa and Botswana, so the border between South Africa and Botswana is unfenced. One can freely cross between South Africa and Botswana while in the park - if you want to enter the park in one country and leave in the other, you have to do immigration at the respective entry/exit gates.

Namibia isn't a part of this, so the Namibian border is fenced, which you can see to the left of the photo. As far as I know, there is no border crossing into Namibia in the area.

The photo is in SA, straight ahead is Botswana (hence the no-entry sign!), and as mentioned earlier, the Namibian fence is on the left.


----------



## alserrod

Something similar as at Nova Gorizia before the Schengen treaty?

Seems interesting!!!!!!


----------



## Alexander18

The Germany Swiss Border in Basel and Weil am Rhein









https://picasaweb.google.com/wyche28/BaselSwitzerland#5401740475972677874
Swiss side









https://picasaweb.google.com/wyche28/BaselSwitzerland#5401740496643232178
German side


----------



## alserrod

Is it enough with only one lane?


----------



## Attus

alserrod said:


> Is it enough with only one lane?


Sure, there are several border stations nearby. There's a border crossing point at almost every corner 
And cars are usually not forced to stop.

Some years ago Switzerland decided to refuse joining some EU-regulations. The Germans asked Switzerland to join but yet they refused it. The other day the German government had the idea: Switzerland is not en EU member so that Basel-Wheil is an outer border of the EU which must be kept so safe as Poland - Belarus e.g. German police went there, every car forced to stop, passport please, open the car's trunk please, do you have anything for customs please, etc. Huge congestions were created and Swiss drivers were very angry. 
It was before noon when Swiss government asked a pen for signing that EU regulation 

Another story: Two years ago I crossed the French-German(!) border at the Rhine bridge at St Louis - Weil (D-F border but less than 1km far from CH). There was temporary document check there. French, Swiss and German cars were allowed to go on but when the officer saw my Hungarian license plate I was forced to stop. Asked for passport, etc. I was very surprised since there were German and Swiss officers but not French ones!


----------



## alserrod

Borders are so curious... nothing better than closing one to force a negotiation...


----------



## Alexander18

The Slovenia/Croatia border in Dobova/Savski Marof









https://picasaweb.google.com/wyche28/ZagrebCroatia#5394347807476663762
Dobova border Station, Slovenia









https://picasaweb.google.com/wyche28/ZagrebCroatia#5394347827230651170
Savski Marof, Croatia


----------



## alserrod

One question: How they organized new borders and controls in new countries where roads and railways were not thought to have those controls?


----------



## Verso

They built new buildings?


----------



## Palance

And some new fences.


----------



## alserrod

But... what about those roads that could cross several times the same border?

And new borders on railways?. Where were they set?


----------



## Road_UK

alserrod said:


> But... what about those roads that could cross several times the same border?
> 
> And new borders on railways?. Where were they set?


You mean for example that road from Aachen to Monschau? It strays onto Belgian soil for a few km, but the road remains German.

Or the one in Holland (N318???) near Sittard, and goes through Germany where it's called "Der Niederlandische Durchgangstrasse" until it crosses back into Holland again and carries on with the same road number. The stretch through Germany is fully German now, but I don't know if it has always been like that, as before they opened the Schengen borders up, you were unable to get on or off in Germany on that road. I wonder if the road had a German lay-out then, or maybe all fully Dutch even though being in Germany. Maybe Chris can answer this?


----------



## alserrod

Not exactly. I asked about roads that when they are in the same country, they are planned as the most easy to make... but after, the border can cross it several times.

I read something about the Belgian railway and I found it very interesting.


And about crossing borders for trips... in Spanish Pyrenees, the best way to make a journey of at least 200km is crossing to France and coming back the border again.
Reason?. The Pyrenees comes down quickly in France but not in Spain where the mountains keep on longer. So then, the nearest motorway in France is very near to the mountains and the border.
Long journey = cross the border, take the French motorway and cross the border again.

It is not usual (only used for towns besides the border, otherwise, no competitive) but... in one official magazine where they offer different places to visit and how to get there, one of them was indicated crossing France.


----------



## mmmartin

alserrod said:


> But... what about those roads that could cross several times the same border?
> 
> And new borders on railways?. Where were they set?


In Slovenia and Croatia some new roads were built, but not many. In one case (by Kumrovec) I think the Croats even built a few km's of new railway.

Otherwise, they both made border check points on the last station in each country.


----------



## erxgli

Border between Arizona (USA), Sonora (Mexico) and Baja California (Mexico)












At this point


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Road_UK said:


> Or the one in Holland (N318???) near Sittard, and goes through Germany where it's called "Der Niederlandische Durchgangstrasse" until it crosses back into Holland again and carries on with the same road number. The stretch through Germany is fully German now, but I don't know if it has always been like that, as before they opened the Schengen borders up, you were unable to get on or off in Germany on that road. I wonder if the road had a German lay-out then, or maybe all fully Dutch even though being in Germany. Maybe Chris can answer this?


It was the N274, and indeed used to be a Dutch road, where you could not leave it. All crossings with German roads were grade-separated without the possibility to switch roads. This area was Dutch until we gave it back in 1963. The road however, wasn't transferred to the state of Nordrhein-Westfalen until 2002, when they numbered it L410, and they constructed a few roundabouts.


----------



## Hanno1983

Last Wednesday I went vom Czechia to Germany via Poland. There were border controls on DK35 south of Walbrzych and on A18/A15 near Forst.
Police from Czechia, Poland and Germany was involved.
What was the reason for this trilateral controls?


----------



## tonylondon

you never know sometime happend all for the rong reason I mean it might be drugs involved


----------



## phiberoptik

mmmartin said:


> In Slovenia and Croatia some new roads were built, but not many. In one case (by Kumrovec) I think the Croats even built a few km's of new railway.
> 
> Otherwise, they both made border check points on the last station in each country.


Croatia didn't built new railway near Kumrovec. Railway that Google maps shows there does not exists and I don't know where did Google found that data


----------



## Hanno1983

tonylondon said:


> you never know sometime happend all for the rong reason I mean it might be drugs involved


Well, I thought there must have been a bigger reason because of this coordinated controls in three different countries on different border crossings.


----------



## x-type

mmmartin said:


> In Slovenia and Croatia some new roads were built, but not many. In one case (by Kumrovec) I think the Croats even built a few km's of new railway.
> 
> Otherwise, they both made border check points on the last station in each country.


no. that railroad is cirrently abandoned because SLO and HR sides haven't managed to find solution about its crossing the border several times. i really don't understand that stupidity, as somebody would jump off the running train. same is with railroad at HR and BIH border in Una valley, although that one has been destroyed in war.


----------



## alserrod

I read on a magazine an article about the trains that goes from Russia to Kaliningrad, that small part or Russia between Poland and Lituania.
Trains must have at least two border crossing to arrive there but it is possible to go there with no passport control.
How?. When lefting that train, all passengers were requested to show the ticket and, depending of the origin, you must pass the custom control.
This is because the same train is used as well as for international traffic or local traffic.

If someone went from continental Russia to Kaliningrad... when arriving, obviously, no passport control.

The same case for inside traffic with the same train at Belarus or Lituania.


But... the most curious thing was fares... a single ticket (this is... a ticket inside Russia, event if the train crossed two borders to arrive there) was more expensive than any international one.
So then, most of passengers knew in which station the train will be stopped at least 30 minutes... and they asked for a ticket up to there, left the train, passed the border control (different country), buyed a new ticket, new border control and finnally a new border control at Kaliningrad (they were Russians but they come from a foreing station).

In other words:

A ticket "continental Russia - Kaliningrad" was more expensive than two tickets: "continental Russia - anywhere at Belarus or Lituania" + "anywhere at Belarus or Lituania - Kaliningrad".

Four border controls to save money...



Can anyone tell us how is this situation nowadays?. I read the article some years ago.


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

alserrod said:


> Trains must have at least two border crossing to arrive there but it is possible to go there with no passport control.
> How?. When lefting that train, all passengers were requested to show the ticket and, depending of the origin, you must pass the custom control.
> This is because the same train is used as well as for international traffic or local traffic.


I am not sure this is correct. To visit Lithuania, Russian citizens need a visa. To transit through the territory of Lithuania (without de-embarking the train), Russian citizens still need to obtain a document that permits such a transit. Most commonly a transit passenger would use a so-called simplified rail-road travel document (УПД-ЖД) that still has to be approved by the Lithuanian consulate. 



> If someone went from continental Russia to Kaliningrad... when arriving, obviously, no passport control.


Not quite correct. The passport control is done when the train crosses the actual border, just like in any other case. However, transit passengers holding УПД-ЖД cannot de-embark in Lithuania at all. There is also border control when entering Kaliningrad district from Lithuania. 



> But... the most curious thing was fares... a single ticket (this is... a ticket inside Russia, event if the train crossed two borders to arrive there) was more expensive than any international one.
> So then, most of passengers knew in which station the train will be stopped at least 30 minutes... and they asked for a ticket up to there, left the train, passed the border control (different country), buyed a new ticket, new border control and finnally a new border control at Kaliningrad (they were Russians but they come from a foreing station).


It might be possible, but Russian citizens would need Lithuanian (Schengen) visa to do that. A person would still need to pay for a visa, so I do not know what the net saving would be.


----------



## alserrod

It was years ago when I read that article and I wanted to post and ask the actual situation. As I see, it has changed...

Really... I do not remember if it was before or after Schengen at Lithuania, and neither I do not remember if the station for transit was at Belarus or Lithuania but... it was so different that I wanted to ask.

As I see... tramits change and evolutions while the time.


----------



## Alexander18

Liechtenstein/Austria border at Schaanwald/Tisis








https://picasaweb.google.com/wyche28/FeldkirchAustria#5392814551553642850









https://picasaweb.google.com/wyche28/FeldkirchAustria#5392814577026374482


----------



## Palance

x-type said:


> no. that railroad is cirrently abandoned because SLO and HR sides haven't managed to find solution about its crossing the border several times. i really don't understand that stupidity, as somebody would jump off the running train. same is with railroad at HR and BIH border in Una valley, although that one has been destroyed in war.


The track Beograd-Bar however is opened and crosses the SRB-BiH-border several times as well.


----------



## Verso

The Slovenian-Croatian railway runs through small towns/villages, so cross-border traffic would probably be abandoned even if the railway crossed the border only once.


----------



## alserrod

Palance said:


> The track Beograd-Bar however is opened and crosses the SRB-BiH-border several times as well.




Is the traffic "border free" for inside transits or there is a control in every border?


As I said some pages before, Llivia is a Spanish town located inside French territory and only 2 km away from border.

Because a treaty, no border customs were allowed. After crossing the border there was a cross. Ahead Llivia town (Spain again), Right or left, anywhere in France.

French police allowed any Spanish car to cross the border but, if in the cross they didn't keep ahead (to Llivia), they will make a passport and baggage control as a border custom.


----------



## pai nosso

*Portugal (Mourão) /Spain (Villanueva del Fresno)* 









P.S.: view from Spain


----------



## alserrod

In at least 90% of bording crosses between Spain and Portugal, borders cabins never exists at all. There are some ones which still exists without use. When a new road or motorway is build or a road is updated, cabin just dissapear (why to keep it when you are going to update all the road trying to improve average speed???).


I remember an article of a journalist who, in 1974 had to move from Madrid to Lisboa when the Portuguese revolution. He said that as well as the news where very recent he wanted to move very quick, before Spanish police (still on a dictature government) will close borders. He said there were about 15 borders only (nowadays there are full of points where you can cross from one country to the another) and he chose the one with less traffic.

I do not remember exactly which one it was but I remember it was located between Guarda and Castelo Branco (Caceres and Salamanca in Spain).


Borders were not closed definitively... but the people who tried to cross the border in the following days needed additional visa. Just to say why you wanted to exit Spain to enter in a country on behalf of a revolution. It was enough, for example, that you were a journalist and... they allowed you to go (on your own risks, of course...). No problem to go, but maybe one day lost only for permissions and visas.

The first journalist could cross the border thanks he went as fast as he could, before the police began a new tramitation for that exceptional situation.


2011 and... just a signal remembering you have crossed the border. 90% of them with no border cabins and as well as roads will be updated they will arrive to 100% (there is not a specific plan to erase them, only if road requires to be updated).


----------



## DanielFigFoz

^^ There are 2 crossings that fit that description, one the major Vilar Formoso one and the other one is near to Castelo Branco where there are small traditional building on both sides of the border where cars used to pull up. The last time I went there as we approached the border a policeman came out and looked at us :lol:. The road comes down a hill from Portugal turns left onto a bridge then you turn right and up a Spanish side of the valley

There actually aren't that many crossings between Portugal and Spain, and in many places the "cabins" were little houses on the side of the road, and many of them are still there (some in a very bad state), in the photo above you can see one.

In other places there are buildings in the middle of the road, but they aren't metal cabins but proper stone buildings, and beautiful ones too, I've posted a few here (the most recent one I've shown from the great blog Histórias da Raia, and it was in Tui).

Then there is Vilar Formoso which does have metal cabins as seen in the rest of Europe.


----------



## Alexander18

German/Austria at Zugsptize 









https://picasaweb.google.com/wyche2...nZugspitzeNurnbergGermany#5223220538272643794


----------



## alserrod

This picture could be in different threads...

http://maps.google.es/?ll=43.293419...d=XQ9he6-cQdRCTQg4w2L5Sg&cbp=12,324.2,,0,9.26

It is the N-121 in Spain Tarazona-Tudela-Pamplona-Irun

The point where the photo is the regional border between Navarra and Basque country and about 10 km away from the sea only. The river makes the regional border.

We can see the works of the new bridge over the river to increase wide, safety and average speed.

In the left side of the river... 100m ahead it becomes France. When Spain had borders very closed, that was a road very controlled... because anyone who stops there and just walk 100m closed to the river, enters in France.

After crossing this bridge, the road will continue in the right side of the Bidasoa river. The left one is France at all.


----------



## Corvinus

Como (I) -> Chiasso (CH):


----------



## Suissetralia

Alexander18 said:


> https://picasaweb.google.com/wyche28/FeldkirchAustria#5392814577026374482


Doesn't anyone else think that the EU needs a proper CoA?


----------



## Road_UK

Absolutely! Yes! I'm all for it! They ought to get started NOW!

What is CoA?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Coat of Arms


----------



## alserrod

Suissetralia said:


> Doesn't anyone else think that the EU needs a proper CoA?




Or maybe the own flag is enough.

Less symbols... easier to understand them...

If someone puts me coat of arms of territories besides my home, maybe I will not recognise them. Flags.. I think so.


----------



## alserrod

Road_UK said:


> No, not on cigarettes and fuel. Customs guidelines in most countries are still 800 cigarettes. In Germany one 20 litre jerrycan of fuel may be taken with you. Believe me, German and French customs are still on to you if they have sufficient reason to believe you purchase cigarettes and fuel for re-sale. I did get fined a few times by the French and Germans for having more then the legal limit. British guidelines are 1600 cigarettes. Alcohol is also restricted.
> 
> From www.zoll.de:
> Please, do not forget that there are prohibitions and restrictions to be considered even for taking goods *within* the European Community.
> By controlling the above mentioned import and export prohibitions, Customs contributes to the *protection of consumer and environment.*



It is thrue. It is not usual to have smuggling because you need to carry too many merchandise to have some benefits. Police know it and only make checks if they suspect there is an important operation.

Inside Spain... we have internal checks too!!!!!! Taxes at Ceuta and Melilla and Canary Islands are quite smallers than in the rest of Spain (continental Spain and Balearic Islands). I think that equivalent to VAT at Melilla is around 4% only... and for alcohol, tobacco, etc... similar.

In the case of Canary Islands it is very easy because 99,95% of movements are by plane. You will carry not too many things by plane because weight restrictions and when passing the baggage by a scanner, police can know what are you carrying.
In the case of Ceuta and Melilla (most usual to have ferries) it is more difficult because on a car you can carry anything.

In the little airport of my city, in the arrival terminal there is a big pannel remembering that passengers coming from Canary Islands have restrictions about baggage and which should be declared.
The airport has not too many flights but there are some ones from anywhere at EU (that happens when WizzAir and Ryanair arrives...) and some of them are from Canary Islands. Only those passengers will have random controls.


Finnally... we have wroten in the last pages about crosses between Spain and Portugal and Spain and France. Some of them without border cabins. All of them without using it. Instead, controls to Andorra and Gibraltar are very, very strong because smuggling.
In the case of Andorra I know that they stop ALL cars and check at least one baggage randomly.
But it is not part of EU...


----------



## Road_UK

If you buy a few boxes of cigarettes or tobacco in Spain (special shops set up on the borders with France - especially Irun and La Jonquera - been to a few of those) intended for resale in France or the UK it is really worth it. There is a reason why French customs always randomly check vehicles at the first few tollbooths after the border. French prices are expensive, UK prices are astronomical.


----------



## alserrod

mgk920 said:


> The right lane is a frequent-crosser commuter express lane and in that clip, it is explained that permits for its use cost a couple of hundred dollars per year.
> 
> Yes, 'STOP' signs in Mexico say 'ALTO'.
> 
> Mike




First time I watched a "Stop" signal wrotten in Spanish was in the film "Guantanamera" made at Cuba, and translation used was "PARE", which I think it is more correct ("Alto" may say "hey! stop there", and "pare" may say "you may stop here").

As far as I know, when first traffic signals arrive to Spain in the middle of 20th century, it was very stange the "Stop" signal because nobody spoke English. The country, as I said, was in a bubble and there was few relations with other countries, even with neighbours.
And... they translated first Stop signals to make them bilingual... (but what I do not remember is which word they used because there are several correct translations).


After that, the next time I watched the signal translated to Spanish was in Cuba. Guantanamera movie is one example... but in any program about Cuba, looking on the streets you will find more.

This time, at Mexico is the next one (and third case) I see translated.


----------



## Attus

Road_UK said:


> No, they always had border controls until Schengen came in force. I think they all started at the same time.


Nooo, in B-NL border there was not even a border station when I was there in the early 90's.


----------



## Attus

Road_UK said:


> And in Luxembourg they still have cheap cigarettes and fuel, which can be smuggled into the Netherlands.


There's no smuggle inside EU (I mean for goods that you can have legally). You are allowed to go from L to NL having a ton of cigarette and 500l fuel free.
WRONG: Se my recent post


----------



## alserrod

Can anyone check restrictions about smuggling inside EU for special goods?.

Is it possible that, such taxes are very near ones to others, police to not take care?.

In any case... Canary Islands are part of EU and have customs controls even when travelling inside the own country. They do not ask for passport but they can check your baggage. In fact, they make in the scanners. I think they look as many forbidden articles on aboard than forbidden goods that can be exported depending of your destination (they ask you the passport and boarding pass).


P.S. For visitors to Canary Islands, take care because those restrictions apply to all countries, not only Spain. You are buying goods in a half-duty-free island inside EU, and you can be required to pay all taxes!!!.

For visitors to some islands too... inform about Unesco heritage situation. Some of them are declared biosphere heritage and it is absolutely forbidden to export anything from the environment... event a little rock or a pot with beach sand as a souvenir.
I know three cases where they were catched in the airport scanner and there is no fine if little things but you must open your baggage and leave it there... and you will loose time (let's think if you are hurry and police to not allow you to go to plane because you are exporting something illegal according to Unesco heritage)


----------



## Attus

Sorry, I must admin I was wrong.
- as for tobacco even inside traffic is limited, you only may have the quantity for yourself without paying a duty*
- the same is true for alcohols
- however I did not find any restriction for fuel

* Detailed information


----------



## Road_UK

Attus said:


> There's no smuggle inside EU (I mean for goods that you can have legally). You are allowed to go from L to NL having a ton of cigarette and 500l fuel free.


Right.
From Belgian customs:
*Richtlijnen omtrent hoeveelheden (EU-catalogus) per persoon:* 

- Takswaren-Sigaretten: 800 stuks 
- Sigaren: 200 stuks 
- Pijptabak: 1,0 kilo 

*Alcoholische dranken:* 

- Gedestilleerd: 10 liter 
- Dranken met minder dan 22%: 20 liter 
- Wijn (max. 60 l mousserend): 90 liter 
- Bier: 110 liter 
These are guidelines only. It's in Dutch, but I'm sure you can work it out. If the Belgian customs havent stopped you if your ton of cigarettes at the first lay-by after the Luxembourg border (they are there sometimes in old crappy Ford Transits) asking you a few questions, then...

From www.douane.nl , bad translation from google:

Exemption from excise duty / excise duty paid if from another EU-country travels in Netherlands

If you travel to Netherlands from another EU country? And please no more excise goods into the next volume?

110 liters of beer
90 liters of wine
20 liters of fortified wine such as sherry or port
10 liters of spirits such as whiskey, brandy, gin
800 cigarettes
400 cigarillos or cigars
1 kilo of tobacco smoke

Then you do when entering the Netherlands no duty to pay. (You will be exempt from excise duty.) Customs assumes that the goods are for personal use. You do not report it.

example:

You travel from France to the Netherlands: You bought in a regular shop in France, 30 liters of beer, 90 liters of wine, 650 cigarettes and two liters of whiskey. You take all the goods into the Netherlands. Then you do when entering the Netherlands no duty to pay if you bought the drinks and cigarettes for personal use.

Attention!

Please excise goods with more than the above amounts? Customs can then determine whether the goods are indeed his own use. If that is not the case, you must pay excise duty.

Tobacco products not intended for personal use, in addition, bear stamps.


Just so you know...


----------



## Road_UK

Attus said:


> Sorry, I must admin I was wrong.
> - as for tobacco even inside traffic is limited, you only may have the quantity for yourself without paying a duty*
> - the same is true for alcohols
> - however I did not find any restriction for fuel
> 
> * Detailed information


No worries. As for fuel, I didn't know that either, but German customs really insist you bring one jerrycan containing 20 liters of diesel out of another EU state only. I did have to pay excise duty when I got out of the Czech Republic one time.


----------



## eucitizen

You can have amount of cigarettes or alcohol above that limit but you have to prove it is for personal use.
What are the prices for example for the marlboro light? In Italy it is 4,50 €, in Czech rep. and Slovakia around 3,20 €. Just one curiosity, in Slovakia there are only 19 cigarettes in one packet, a trick by the tobacco companies not to lift prices.


----------



## Prahova

Serbia-Montenegro


----------



## alserrod

Did they put a border control in all roads that cross it or just they cut some of them and put the control in another ones.

Have they think in something about avoiding controls?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Interesting story on the top of Belgian sites at the moment: the "coffee shops" (with legal drugs) in Maastricht will from now on only be open to people from the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany. My first reaction is, is that legal? Can they exclude citizens of other EU countries? (Not that I'm personally interested in being able to go to Maastricht for legal drugs, and not an EU citizen anyway...)

http://www.lesoir.be/actualite/belg...ux-neerlandais-belges-et-allemands-855093.php

(In the interest of equal time, I looked for a Dutch version, but it's not on the Standaard or the VRT.)


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

Penn's Woods said:


> Interesting story on the top of Belgian sites at the moment: the "coffee shops" (with legal drugs) in Maastricht will from now on only be open to people from the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany.


On a similar note, I have read somewhere that the Dutch legislature is thinking to limit the sale of Ganja in coffee shops to Dutch citizens only. This made a lot of Dutch unhappy including the Amsterdam mayor. Let's hope it will not pass :cheers:


----------



## MrAkumana

Alex Von Königsberg said:


> On a similar note, I have read somewhere that the Dutch legislature is thinking to limit the sale of Ganja in coffee shops to Dutch citizens only. This made a lot of Dutch unhappy including the Amsterdam mayor. Let's hope it will not pass :cheers:


Actually it's about limiting it to *residents* I believe. And since any EU citizen can become a resident if they wish is likely that it isn't against EU laws...


----------



## Surel

MrAkumana said:


> Actually it's about limiting it to *residents* I believe. And since any EU citizen can become a resident if they wish is likely that it isn't against EU laws...


Actually it wouldn’t be against the EU laws (certainly their spirit and principles) only if it was limited to the "EU residents", not residents in the Netherlands. I could hardly believe that law that limits trade with certain goods to only certain country residents can be interpreted as in accordance with the free trade and movement of goods and services principle together with the equality principle. If commodities like land have to be free to trade with around the whole EU, marihuana should not really get some exceptional position. But on the other side, I know that the "EU" laws or principles are implemented rather freely in the "old member" countries.


----------



## tbh444

mgk920 said:


> The USA does not have a counterpart and our real inspections are at the border checkpoints. That said, it is not unusual for the USA customs guys to set up inspection areas farther inland as well, mainly looking for illegal aliens.


Yes I went through this one on a visit a few years ago - didn't take long but must be strange for locals doing routine journeys (not that there's actually anywhere much to be travelling to or from around there)

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en...d=6OSGgJ14YNIEQZAYqHt6HA&cbp=12,51.33,,0,7.79


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

tbh444 said:


> Yes I went through this one on a visit a few years ago - didn't take long but must be strange for locals doing routine journeys (not that there's actually anywhere much to be travelling to or from around there)
> 
> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en...d=6OSGgJ14YNIEQZAYqHt6HA&cbp=12,51.33,,0,7.79


Some more border patrol checkpoints are located at busy routes like I-5 and I-15, and locals know them all too well. As far as I know, near southern border checkpoints existed for quite a while. However, several years ago, Ministerium für Vaterlandsicherheit also started setting up rolling checkpoints in the Northwest near Canadian border to catch illegal Canadians, I presume


----------



## DanielFigFoz

MrAkumana said:


> Actually it's about limiting it to *residents* I believe. And since any EU citizen can become a resident if they wish is likely that it isn't against EU laws...


The Scottish government pays the university fees of Scottish people, and there for they have to pay the fees of non-British EU citizens, however the tuition fees for English, Northern Irish and Welsh students in Scotland is £9000 per annum:lol:. Its a bit unfair though


----------



## Penn's Woods

Alex Von Königsberg said:


> Some more border patrol checkpoints are located at busy routes like I-5 and I-15, and locals know them all too well. As far as I know, near southern border checkpoints existed for quite a while. However, several years ago, Ministerium für Vaterlandsicherheit also started setting up rolling checkpoints in the Northwest near Canadian border to catch illegal Canadians, I presume


I suppose they'd justify it as (a) even-handedness and (b) preventing people getting in the back door - the "Millennium Bomber" who wanted to attack Los Angeles Airport on 12/31/99 crossed the border in the northwest, after all.

My brother happened to be in Montreal on 9/11 and wasn't able to come home for a few days because the border there was closed.


----------



## Alexander18

Bulgarian Border in Gyueshevo


----------



## GeertjeC

DanielFigFoz said:


> The Scottish government pays the university fees of Scottish people, and there for they have to pay the fees of non-British EU citizens, however the tuition fees for English, Northern Irish and Welsh students in Scotland is £9000 per annum:lol:. Its a bit unfair though


That's tuition fees though. The reason the Scottish government is allowed to discriminate against other British countries is because it's treated as the same country under EU law, so English/Welsh/Northern Irish students aren't exercising their treaty rights by moving to Scotland, whereas other EU students do. It's not limited by nationality, of course - an English student who has first spent some time living abroad, for example, would be exercising treaty rights and so would not need to pay tuition fees in Scotland. In this respect, Scottish independence (if Scotland remained part of the EU) would help to prevent this unfair discrimination of non-Scottish UK students.

It's important to note that this applies to tuition fees only. Maintenance grants, on the other hand, are generally determined by residency. Indeed, Article 24(2) of Directive 2004/38/EC (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:EN:PDF) explicitly states that maintenance grants need not be offered before permanent residence has been established.
So for example, in the UK, if you want a research council maintenance grant for a postgraduate degree, you will need to have been resident in the UK for the preceding three years. (This applies even if you're a British citizen.) However, you're eligible for them to pay for your tuition fees if you're a national of any EEA country, regardless of residency (funding isn't guaranteed - these are merely eligibility criteria).

However, residency rules aren't always trivial; for example, here's a recent European Court of Justice ruling demonstrating how a person can become integrated and entitled to a tuition fee loan despite not having fulfilled all residency requirements: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:62003J0209:EN:HTML

So as far as I understand things, the proposed Dutch solution of the coffee shop issue is perfectly legal. They want to make coffee shops members' only clubs, and restrict membership to local residents only (where 'local' really is local - it's not the entire territory of the Netherlands, or at least that was my understanding of it). That doesn't seem to me to be discriminatory at all; if you move there, you can join, and any EU citizen is allowed to move there, so there doesn't seem to me to be any discrimination based on nationality.


----------



## invincibletiger

Another border crossing between Macedonia and Bulgaria ... Deve Bair


----------



## MrAronymous

On the marihuana thing;
"Officially" (in laws, documents, agreements of EU) marihuana is illegal in the Netherlands. 
We only "gedogen" (tollerate) it. And I think therefore they can't punish the banning of it to EU citizens, 'cause officially it's already banned to all Dutch and Europeans


----------



## italystf

Why the Dutch government isn't happy about tourist buying "weed" in NL but accepts if locals do it? Usually laws such traffic rules, smoking bans, minimum age to drink\smoke, environment-related laws, etc... are equal for everybody in democratic countries, doesn't matter if you are a local, if you live in another part of the country or if you came from another EU or non-EU country.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The problem apparently is that these "tourists" bring along a lot of trouble, and drive under influence, with car chases and crashes not being uncommon. It apparently also attracts drugs runners. It's even quoted that they don't like the additional traffic, because they all come by car.


----------



## italystf

And Schengen agreement allows tourist to bring that stuff back to their countries where is illegal.


----------



## ja_kubek2

italystf said:


> And Schengen agreement allows tourist to bring that stuff back to their countries where is illegal.


no, it doesn't. it is possible and easy, but not legal.


----------



## italystf

ja_kubek2 said:


> no, it doesn't. it is possible and easy, but not legal.


I know that is illegal. But since there are no border checks between NL and neighbouring contries is practically feasible and there are little chance to be caught if you travel by car\train; it's more dangerous by plane due to anti-drug dogs that control luggage even for flights inside the same country.


----------



## x-type

how does NL police do tests for being_ high _while driving? here we call those markers "lollipops", but they show positive result few days after consumption. do you have somethnig else in NL or you are not supposed to drive few days after taking some ganja?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's the whole problem, there is no reliable test right now. They can only cite them for reckless driving or for traffic offenses.


----------



## alserrod

italystf said:


> And Schengen agreement allows tourist to bring that stuff back to their countries where is illegal.




At Spain it is have marihuana for own consume and you can consume it only in private places (such your home and little places more... because a pub is public).

If you are found with small quantities in the pocket it is legal but you cannot smoke it in the street.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

In Portugal all drugs are legal for personal use


----------



## Alexander18

Swiss/ Liechtenstein border in River Rhine


----------



## erxgli

*Mexico-USA Int´l Border*

*Mexico-USA international border*















































*Young girl at binational border protest at Friendship Park 
passes candy to children on the Mexican side of the fence*

































*Territorial evolution of the north american continent*
Boundaries change all the timehno:hno:hno:......












*Territorial evolution of the United States of America and the United Mexican States*


----------



## Falusi

Ohh... I'm currently stucking in the 1 km+ queue of Horgos - Röszke border crossing (serbia - hungary)


----------



## Surel

GeertjeC said:


> So as far as I understand things, the proposed Dutch solution of the coffee shop issue is perfectly legal. They want to make coffee shops members' only clubs, and restrict membership to local residents only (where 'local' really is local - it's not the entire territory of the Netherlands, or at least that was my understanding of it). That doesn't seem to me to be discriminatory at all; if you move there, you can join, and any EU citizen is allowed to move there, so there doesn't seem to me to be any discrimination based on nationality.


Its just like, saying, creating club of the landlords and only a member of landlord club can be buying land in certain country... BTW, only a resident for lets say 5 or more years can become a member of landlords club in that particular country....

Doesnt seem to be discriminatory??? hno:

It clearly goes against the principals of the european treaties. Whatever else is not important. If you play with words long enough time you can make almost everything legal... however there are certain principles in the law that should be respected.




MrAronymous said:


> On the marihuana thing;
> "Officially" (in laws, documents, agreements of EU) marihuana is illegal in the Netherlands.
> We only "gedogen" (tollerate) it. And I think therefore they can't punish the banning of it to EU citizens, 'cause officially it's already banned to all Dutch and Europeans


I guess this is more the problem... either legalize it, or make it illegal. This law - no law seems to me to be a big problem as well as police which is not willing to really act but is rather willing to tollerate.



What would be for me a clean solution, would be creating a system similar to the gun´s licences. You could buy a marihuana in coffieshop only if you were an owner of a marihuana consumption licence. Everyone would be able to obtain this licence if complying with certain conditions. Residency condition doesnt seem to me to be relevant here because buying marihuana doesnt belong to the social sector use which only can be conditioned with residency (better with migrant worker status condition).


----------



## Fabri88

ChrisZwolle said:


> The problem apparently is that these "tourists" bring along a lot of trouble, and drive under influence, with car chases and crashes not being uncommon. It apparently also attracts drugs runners. It's even quoted that they don't like the additional traffic, because they all come by car.


If the trouble are foreign drivers it would be good a law that oblige foreign people to show an airline ticket and/or a train ticket.


----------



## Daviedoff

2 video's of the border Belgium - France:
1. E40 highway Brussels - Calais, driving Belgium into France:




 
2. Driving France into Belgium at Callicanes (between Steenvoorde and Poperinge):


----------



## GeertjeC

Surel said:


> Its just like, saying, creating club of the landlords and only a member of landlord club can be buying land in certain country... BTW, only a resident for lets say 5 or more years can become a member of a landlords club in that particular country....
> 
> Doesnt seem to be discriminatory??? hno:
> 
> It clearly goes against the principals of the european treaties. Whatever else is not important. If you play with words long enough time you can make almost everything legal... however there are certain principals in the law that should be respected.


I think it's a matter of implementation. If you require someone to live somewhere for 5 years before they become eligible to become members of the club, then yes, that certainly sounds like discrimination. However, if all you do is require residency - say in the form of a tenancy agreement or property ownership - then it doesn't seem to me to be discriminatory. There doesn't seem to be any valid reason justifying a 5 year waiting period, so such a waiting period would indeed probably be discriminatory - but what makes you think there would be one?

(Your example of being able to buy land only if you're already a landowner is somewhat disingenuous, as of course this is how you gain residency, and so such a condition would be cyclical and obviously discriminatory.)


----------



## bogdymol

DanielFigFoz said:


> The curriculum changes a lot. The people in the year before are taught different things to me and I m taught different things to the year behind, especially in science, if they discover something new, but they still have to teach things that are wrong, for example teachers still have to teach that Pluto is a full planet, at least they had to last year, they probably don't anymore


Pluto was a planet when I studied at school, so it's still a planet for me right now.










And to be ontopic: Pluto is at our solar system border crossing


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> And to be ontopic: Pluto is at our solar system border crossing


Mmm, not really. Pluto's just 40 AU away, while Sedna, for instance, reaches 520 AU... and Sedna is still far away the border of the Solar System. Maybe Pluto's on a regional border, between inner Solar system and Kuiper belt.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

bogdymol said:


> Pluto was a planet when I studied at school, so it's still a planet for me right now.


Yep, for people who went to school in the 1980's, the Soviet Union still exists too! :lol: You're never too old to learn.


----------



## bogdymol

g.spinoza said:


> Mmm, not really. Pluto's just 40 AU away, while Sedna, for instance, reaches 520 AU... and Sedna is still far away the border of the Solar System. Maybe Pluto's on a regional border, between inner Solar system and Kuiper belt.


Ok, I'll write that again: Pluto is the closest planet from our solar system border / Pluto is the last planet before the _intergalactical_ border crossing 



ChrisZwolle said:


> Yep, for people who went to school in the 1980's, the Soviet Union still exists too! :lol: You're never too old to learn.


Come on. This situation is way different. The Soviet Union is no more, but Pluto is still there exactly as it was before. But you can always have another opionion


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> Ok, I'll write that again: Pluto is the closest planet from our solar system border / Pluto is the last planet before the _intergalactical_ border crossing


Mmm. Haumea is as big as Pluto but 50 AU from the Sun; Eris is bigger than Pluto and orbiting at 100 AU. So, wrong again


----------



## bogdymol

g.spinoza said:


> bogdymol said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, I'll write that again: Pluto is the closest *planet* from our solar system border / Pluto is the last *planet* before the _intergalactical_ border crossing
> 
> 
> 
> Mmm. Haumea is as big as Pluto but 50 AU from the Sun; Eris is bigger than Pluto and orbiting at 100 AU. So, wrong again
Click to expand...


----------



## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yep, for people who went to school in the 1980's, the Soviet Union still exists too! :lol: You're never too old to learn.


I was in highschool 1988-92. In geography studies we learned that the world's best economics is that of the USSR. But when we've finished high school and had to do final exams, even the Soviet Union did not exist any more. It was easy to do the exam since the teacher had almost nothing to ask


----------



## Fatfield

DanielFigFoz said:


> The curriculum changes a lot. The people in the year before are taught different things to me and I m taught different things to the year behind, especially in science, if they discover something new, but they still have to teach things that are wrong, for example teachers still have to teach that Pluto is a full planet, at least they had to last year, they probably don't anymore


With all due respect, that is absolute bollocks.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Care to elaborate?


----------



## Fatfield

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Care to elaborate?


The curriculum does not change year to year.


----------



## alserrod

Agurv said:


> never heard of anyone thinking Mexico is in anything but North America


I'm Spanish and at High School, in the subject of World Geography, teacher separated political and phyisical geography. In the case of political teacher focused mainly in European Union, United States, Japan and USSR (yeah... one year before dissapearing)

In the case of physical geography we studied the six continents all of them separated. This is... when studying Africa, not north Africa, central Africa... but all the continent together. Of course they were studied differences inside any continent, but thinking always that Asia is from Turkey to Japan and America is from Alaska to Chile, for example.

Teacher gave more importance to Europe (continent where living) and America (in the next year, all America discovery and conquering, including, places, rivers, years, etc... will be studied).

And talking about America the criteria was the following:

- North America: Canada, United States and most of Mexico (all except Yucatan, Chiapas, etc...). Just look a map and... up to the narrowest part of Mexico.

- Central America: The little part of Mexico, all Caribean islands and up to Panama Canal.

- South America: Part of Panama (southern from the Canal) and all countries from Colombia through the south.

He explained that continents are pointed by oceans, mountains, etc... but never from political lines.
Should a political line (a border) change... will the continent change too??????

This is why, with this reason Mexico is together in North and Central America, and Panama is in Central and South America.

Anyway... America was considereded from the north of Canada to the south of Chile, and as far as most, most, most of people who talk the language live in this continent, in the Spanish language, talking to America means talking about the FULL continent. Should you want to talk about one part, you must say by its name, not by the continent name.

In the same case, Turkey is together between Europe and Asia, Russia too. Egypt is between Africa and Asia, and Spain between Europe and Africa, for example (there are more multi-continent cases).






ChrisZwolle said:


> Yep, for people who went to school in the 1980's, the Soviet Union still exists too! :lol: You're never too old to learn.


At History class, teacher was angry because she was explaining Roman Empire civilization and she started talking about some cities and current countries in eastern Europe and a lot of people mixed up some of them.

She said we had the year before a subject about geography and we should know all countries... and she adviced that in the examn she will put a "blank map" to write a sketch about this Empire and... current countries. 
Should a student will not write correctly all countries around that Empire (most of European, and some of eastern Asia and northern Africa), will have only half of punctuation.


And thanks that USSR, Yugoslavia, etc... still existed because there were some students with a very weak level of knowledge about this.


----------



## Corvinus

A calm and quiet crossing:
Oberriet (CH) -> Meiningen (A), just north of Liechtenstein

1. The bridge between the customs booths of both countries









2. Entering Austria


----------



## parcdesprinces

bogdymol said:


> Pluto is the last planet before the *intergalactical* border crossing


_Interstellar_ would be the right term I think, instead of intergalactic... Anyway, pluto is no longer the last planet before the "interstellar border crossing": Neptune stole to Pluto this very enviable status , as stated above !


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Fatfield said:


> The curriculum does not change year to year.


Not officially perhaps no, but the school can change the exam board for example. That happened to me last year, and what we had to learn for the exams changed a lot. 

We aren't taught for us to learn, but to pass the exams, and the exams do vary, for example one year its mainly on x, then y, then u, then p, then x then y and so forth, so what we are taught will vary, if the teachers expect for p to come up in an exam, that is what we are taught, if y comes up, well we're in trouble


----------



## DanielFigFoz

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yep, for people who went to school in the 1980's, the Soviet Union still exists too! :lol: You're never too old to learn.


In schools that I went to in Portugal, the world maps they had still had the Soviet Union and the last school I went to had a map of Portugal from 1965, with all the colonies in a much smaller scale, and the school was half the age of the map :lol:

EDIT: This post should be underneath the next post, but its gone up here :lol:


----------



## Agurv

Been living in north America my whole life. I had no idea there was confusion on where it ended. I mean I could see central America maybe? But its pretty well known that Mexico is in north America. 

They are in the north American soccer federation as well!


----------



## erxgli

That can help us...


----------



## erxgli

Mexico is in the north american plate...



erxgli said:


> That can help us...


----------



## alserrod

Agurv said:


> Been living in north America my whole life. I had no idea there was confusion on where it ended. I mean I could see central America maybe? But its pretty well known that Mexico is in north America.
> 
> They are in the north American soccer federation as well!




 CONCACAF

http://www.concacaf.com/page/Home/0,,12813,00.html


North, central and Caribbean Association.


----------



## bogdymol

DanielFigFoz said:


> In schools that I went to in Portugal, the world maps they had still had the Soviet Union and the last school I went to had a map of Portugal from 1965, with all the colonies in a much smaller scale, and the school was half the age of the map :lol:
> 
> EDIT: This post should be underneath the next post, but its gone up here :lol:


When I was in gymnasium (I think it was around 2000-2004) we also had a very old map. Romania was still bordering the Soviet Union. I now see many maps where Romania is not bordering Soviet Union anymore (but Ukraine and Rep. of Moldova), but there is a country called Yugoslavia next to us


----------



## Fatfield

DanielFigFoz said:


> Not officially perhaps no, but the school can change the exam board for example. That happened to me last year, and what we had to learn for the exams changed a lot.
> 
> *We aren't taught for us to learn, but to pass the exams*, and the exams do vary, for example one year its mainly on x, then y, then u, then p, then x then y and so forth, so what we are taught will vary, if the teachers expect for p to come up in an exam, that is what we are taught, if y comes up, well we're in trouble


Right, I understand what you mean now. I'll leave it there as we're going just a tad off topic.


----------



## Fatfield

erxgli said:


> That can help us...


Not really. It would make Japan part of Europe or Britain part of Asia.


----------



## MattiG

Fatfield said:


> Not really. It would make Japan part of Europe or Britain part of Asia.


Would that be a bad idea?


----------



## Fatfield

MattiG said:


> Would that be a bad idea?


Would what be a bad idea?


----------



## ScraperDude

So does anyone know the answer to this: Can individuals own land that straddles a border? or does their property rights end where it meets the international border? 

Example Hungary/Bulgaria border on Google Earth looks like the border meanders through farmlands etc.... How are these situations treated? Pay taxes to both nations?


----------



## bogdymol

ScraperDude said:


> So does anyone know the answer to this: Can individuals own land that straddles a border? or does their property rights end where it meets the international border?
> 
> Example *Hungary/Bulgaria* border on Google Earth looks like the border meanders through farmlands etc.... How are these situations treated? Pay taxes to both nations?


Can you please provide a map of this border?


----------



## DanielFigFoz

ScraperDude said:


> So does anyone know the answer to this: Can individuals own land that straddles a border? or does their property rights end where it meets the international border?
> 
> Example *Hungary/Bulgaria* border on Google Earth looks like the border meanders through farmlands etc.... How are these situations treated? Pay taxes to both nations?


Maybe not on that border :lol:, but its possible indeed, there are loads of farms on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic


----------



## NorthPole

bogdymol said:


> When I was in gymnasium (I think it was around 2000-2004) we also had a very old map. Romania was still bordering the Soviet Union. I now see many maps where Romania is not bordering Soviet Union anymore (but Ukraine and Rep. of Moldova), but there is a country called Yugoslavia next to us


But there are still some Romanian neighbours left. Poles cannot say the same (there's no USSR, Czechoslovakia or GDR any more). Obviously we did something really serious in 1989, so no country could survive it (Poland did, but we had to change its full name after all).

But there are bright sides too. Number of our neighbours jumped from 3 to 7.
More neighbours = more fun


----------



## Penn's Woods

ScraperDude said:


> So does anyone know the answer to this: Can individuals own land that straddles a border? or does their property rights end where it meets the international border?
> 
> Example Hungary/Bulgaria border on Google Earth looks like the border meanders through farmlands etc.... How are these situations treated? Pay taxes to both nations?


There are people on the U.S./Canadian border who actually have the border passing through their houses. Check out Derby Line, Vermont, and Rock Island (I think is the name), Quebec, which are for all practical purposes a single town.
Also Baarle-Hertog, Belgium, and Baarle-Nassau, the Netherlands, which are an absolute mess. I know there are websites on that.


----------



## Aokromes

ScraperDude said:


> So does anyone know the answer to this: Can individuals own land that straddles a border? or does their property rights end where it meets the international border?
> 
> Example Hungary/Bulgaria border on Google Earth looks like the border meanders through farmlands etc.... How are these situations treated? Pay taxes to both nations?


Afaik on Belgium they pay the taxes where they have the door of the house.


----------



## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> There are people on the U.S./Canadian border who actually have the border passing through their houses. Check out Derby Line, Vermont, and Rock Island (I think is the name), Quebec, which are for all practical purposes a single town.
> Also Baarle-Hertog, Belgium, and Baarle-Nassau, the Netherlands, which are an absolute mess. I know there are websites on that.


There is a German country lane near the border with Beek, where the houses on the side of the road are Dutch. On the other side of the road it's all fields. I guess these Dutch citizens live on a road with a German name, but their houses are in Holland.

In Maastricht there is a street where the houses on the left are Belgian, and on the right are Dutch. Dutch side: all tidy
Belgian side: a mess with overhead 
power cables. 

Kerkrade: Left: Dutch, right: German. It's called Nieuwstraat / Neustrasse. Road lay-out is all Dutch.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> There is a German country lane near the border with Beek, where the houses on the side of the road are Dutch. On the other side of the road it's all fields. I guess these Dutch citizens live on a road with a German name, but their houses are in Holland.
> 
> In Maastricht there is a street where the houses on the left are Belgian, and on the right are Dutch. Dutch side: all tidy
> Belgian side: a mess with overhead
> power cables.
> 
> Kerkrade: Left: Dutch, right: German. It's called Nieuwstraat / Neustrasse. Road lay-out is all Dutch.


This site full of border pictures (and with links to other such sites) has been around forever:

http://grenzen.150m.com/


----------



## ScraperDude

Penn's Woods said:


> There are people on the U.S./Canadian border who actually have the border passing through their houses. Check out Derby Line, Vermont, and Rock Island (I think is the name), Quebec, which are for all practical purposes a single town.
> Also Baarle-Hertog, Belgium, and Baarle-Nassau, the Netherlands, which are an absolute mess. I know there are websites on that.


I already know  of Derby Line and areas outside of that area that border QC where properties have the border running though them and some of their homes as well as the Baarle situation in NL. I know the US and Canada allows ownership of properties on the border. 

I'm curious how these situations play out in other countries and how the taxes are determined. Especially Eastern European countries.

PS: I actually have bookmarked the http://grenzen.150m.com long ago and am in LOVE with it. I can spend so much time on those sites.


----------



## ScraperDude

bogdymol said:


> Can you please provide a map of this border?


Here are the Google maps coordinates for the area I'm referring to: 47.777117,22.528996

The border seems to just flow through farm fields


----------



## nenea_hartia

ScraperDude said:


> Here are the Google maps coordinates for the area I'm referring to: 47.777117,22.528996
> 
> The border seems to just flow through farm fields


I can't see any border at those coordinates. However, in the nearby there is indeed the *Romanian*-Hungarian border.


----------



## ScraperDude

nenea_hartia said:


> I can't see any border at those coordinates. However, in the nearby there is indeed the *Romanian*-Hungarian border.


Sorry about that! Try these: 47.755829,22.472162 Near Berveni, Romania


----------



## alserrod

ScraperDude said:


> Here are the Google maps coordinates for the area I'm referring to: 47.777117,22.528996
> 
> The border seems to just flow through farm fields




First question is... 
Is the border at google really correct in the exact line?. They are used to approach a lot, but usually a little meters can change... 



About what happens when your house, bar or shop is in two countries at the same time, I prefer Dutch or Belgian forumers to tell about Baarle...........


----------



## ScraperDude

alserrod said:


> First question is...
> Is the border at google really correct in the exact line?. They are used to approach a lot, but usually a little meters can change...
> 
> 
> 
> About what happens when your house, bar or shop is in two countries at the same time, I prefer Dutch or Belgian forumers to tell about Baarle...........


In some instances it google is correct however in most it is not 
I know enough about Baarle I feel I could write a book on it, I think most of here are well informed on Baarle.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Google borders are far from accurate. Overall they're fairly accurate, but not on the highest zoom levels, where they're often off by meters or even tens of meters.


----------



## alserrod

x-type said:


> Somport E-F
> Aragnouet-Bielsa E-F
> 
> I am not sure if there are some other border tunnels in Europe



A bit later...

Somport tunnel, opened in january 2004 is 8,1 km long and I posted in this thread a photo about the point of the border.

It connects the Spanish national road N-330 and French one RN-134, both of them managed by national governments.

Is is part of Way of St. James. The mountain pass of Somport is the smaller in the central Pyrenees and that one chosen by pilgrims since middle age (1.620 m over sea level)


Aragnouet-Bielsa

Opened in the early 70s, there was no alternative to cross the border there. It is between some of the highest peaks of the Pyrenees.

On last years it has been closed some months for refurbishments and dates had to be agreed with hotels, ski resorts, etc... in both sides of the border because closure impact.

There is an only entreprise for maintenance in both sides of tunnel and inside of it, of course. It is to avoid the situation of snow in one side and no problem in the other side (so tunnel closed) and upside down next week.

It connects secondary roads managed by Hautes Pyrenees department and the region of Aragon.


----------



## alce9316

Hi all! I've been following this thread for a few months and after my last trip I finally decided that it was time to contribute to this forum with some interesting material, so I gathered all the pictures of borders and border crossing I've taken during my trips to share them with you. They're not the usual boring European crossings, so I hope you enjoy them!

First, Vietnam-China border at Lao Cai town (pics taken in 2007)






























Second, Mauritania-Senegal border across the Senegal river ( the pics were taken from the Senegalese side)


----------



## g.spinoza

^^Woww, welcome and congratulations for the nice pics (and the trips that generated them!)


----------



## alce9316

let's continue with the Jordan-Syrian border:














































Then, here comes a series of borders in Thailand, Laos and Cambodia taken during my recent trip to Southeast Asia.

Thai-Burmese border at Mae Sai-Tachileik:










Burma is across the bridge:





































This is the famous Golden Triangle, where Thailand, Burma (Myanmar) and Laos meet.










The following picture was taken from Thailand, but the strip of land in front of you belongs to Burma and the other side of the river is Laos










Border Triangle sign in Laos:










The right hand side of the river is Laos, the left hand side is Burma










Thai side:










Casino in Burma:


----------



## alce9316

Now, Thai-Lao border at Chong Mek (East of Thailand)





































You can see the border fence in this pic:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Very interesting!


----------



## nenea_hartia

Great pics, especially the one with that flag into the water. Thank you! :cheers:


----------



## alce9316

This is the last bit: Laos-Cambodia. I crossed through two different points. The first one is in the 4000 islands region. We stayed in Don Khon in order to watch the rare Irrawady dolphin. We cycled across the island and took a quick boat trip to the Cambodian side; after an hour or so, we crossed back to Laos.

This is the island:










Cambodia:














































Laos from Cambodian soil:










Cambodian mountains again:










heading back to Laos










The second point is the official border crossing of Veun Kham:

"Future" Lao customs office:










Actual office, you can see that it is ( or at least looks like) an old train wagon 



















Border and no man's land. The building in the background is Cambodian:




























Cambodian side of the border:




















So this is it. I hope you have all enjoyed the pictures of this corner of the world!


----------



## Stainless

^^^ Excellent pictures, also worth noting that most of these are border crossings that include a change from left to right hand traffic. But the low level of vehicle traffic and the time it takes to deal with anyone crossing stops this being an issue.


----------



## an-148

Vertigo said:


> It wasn't last summer... Not sure about the current situation.


thanks a lot, dank u wel


----------



## alserrod

Very nice pictures.

Can you tell further about customs controls?. Strong or they let pass any tourist?


----------



## alserrod

It is not a border in any case... but an important point in the world.

The country of Ecuador wanted to have a monument where they said "the centre of the world" (just in the equator parallel)

And... they had a little mistake on measures... the monument is really 250m south from the real equator line.


If you want to find... coordenates are: 
78º29'20" West and... of course 0º0'00"... (well... a little to the south...)


----------



## AtD

Very fascinating photos!


----------



## Alexpilsen

Brazil - Uruguai Border










Fronteira Brasil, Uruguai, Argentina by Micaellua at Flickr.com









Fronteira Brasil/Uruguai by Draserv_Albino at Flickr.com

*Uruguai ------ Brasil*








36 (31) by Gerson Gerloff at Flickr.com









_Same Author from above_










Fronteira Brasil & Uruguai by Roberto Uebel at Flickr.com​


----------



## alserrod

The town at Uruguay is Chuy. Border is an avenue and road and there are no customs cabins... apart that in the web you can find some people selling in the centre of the avenue for travellers and... part of goods are at Uruguay and part at Brazil.

The third photo seams nice... you enter at Uruguay and the first you find is an Uruguayan meat barbeque restaurant!!!!!!!


----------



## Escher

This is not Chui-Chuy border. I'm not sure about the two first photos but the last are in Santana do Livramento (BRA) - Rivera (ROU). In practical ways it's a big town with a border in the middle of it!! Unique case!!


----------



## Road_UK

Wonderful photographs indeed!


----------



## alserrod

Road_UK said:


> Wonderful photographs indeed!



Uruguayan welcome too!!!!



Seems nice to cross the border without checkpoint and find a barbeque restaurant of uruguayan meat!!!!


: Cheers:


----------



## brisavoine

Hallo Deutschland! Bonjour France !


----------



## hofburg

on the right they have better _bratwurst_, on the left better _pain_


----------



## ScraperDude

Small border crossing between Hyder, Alaska and Stewart, British Columbia
Apparently this American town uses Canadian phone system, currency and sends their children to Canadian schools??? link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyder,_Alaska

Also note there is a Yellow sign that states that Hyder is the highest listerner to XM Satellite radio per capita. I wonder how/why XM would even bother with such a sign at an international border.....








Photo: Tdevries at en.wikipedia


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

DanielFigFoz said:


> I highly doubt that the border guards would be bothered by that, infact further down you cans see this sign
> 
> http://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=49.002136,-122.754541&spn=0.003491,0.010568&z=17&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=49.002136,-122.754541&panoid=ur5wcdNk19aBI_EvFfXeWw&cbp=12,104.53,,1,4.57
> 
> http://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=49.002161,-122.754986&spn=0.003491,0.010568&z=17&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=49.002206,-122.755122&panoid=kM4x_XD3sG4zvULF4GZEXg&cbp=12,221.42,,0,9.63
> 
> This sign certainly gives the impression that they allow people into the Peace Arch Park from there:
> http://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=49.002132,-122.753581&spn=0.003491,0.010568&z=17&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=49.002135,-122.753734&panoid=fCH8_q5KKPMJqZeUct-rvg&cbp=12,149.02,,1,15.55


It is my understanding that people are allowed to the park as long as they return to the same country that they came from. From the way it looks, it is perfectly possible to physically walk from 0 avenue (Canada) to A street (USA), but it is still illegal, of course. Crossing the US-Canada border is rarely a pleasant experience, so I never tried to take my time and relax before crossing the border.


----------



## piotr71

brisavoine said:


> Hallo Deutschland! Bonjour France !


Where is that place?


----------



## Road_UK

Wissenbourg (Weissenburg) ? Or in that area? Or perhaps Creuzwald? Or Saarbrucken area? Somewhere along that line anyway, north is Luxembourg - south is a bloody big river that forms the border. I like this, we should make a new game on a thread out of this: Guess the Bordercrossing.


----------



## hofburg

+1


----------



## Fabri88

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/15458074?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com










Because when you enter Denmark, you don't enter ONLY Denmark!!!

I love the fact that next to every border crossing between Germany and Denmark there are the 5 Nordic flags!!!


----------



## brisavoine

piotr71 said:


> Where is that place?


All I can say is that this was the border between the Duchy of Lorraine and the County of Nassau-Saarbrücken. The Duchy of Lorraine became French in 1766 (it had been administered by French civil administrators since 1737 already). The County of Nassau-Saarbrücken was a client state of France under the French monarchy, and it was invaded by the French Revolutionary Army in 1793 and annexed to the French Republic (forming the Sarre department with other annexed territories). In 1814, at the first Treaty of Paris, it was left to France (to the great discontent of Prussia), but after Napoleon's stupid return and subsequent defeat at Waterloo in 1815 it was taken away from France and given to Prussia. In 1919 France tried to recover the border of 1814, but the Allies disagreed so France recovered only the border of 1815, but the Sarre was turned into a French protectorate as a compensation.


----------



## alce9316

alserrod said:


> Very nice pictures.
> 
> Can you tell further about customs controls?. Strong or they let pass any tourist?


Thank you . About the customs I'd say that in Southeast Asia they were pretty "relaxed", I mean, we weren't registered even once and we didn't have any problem getting into. But I do remember that the checkpoint in the Jordan-Syrian border took forever because the Syrian officials had to check every single passport since they do not allow any tourist with an Israeli visa on them, so as long as you don't have one you should be fine, but right now with the political situation I'm not sure if crossing is that easy...hno:


----------



## mgk920

alce9316 said:


> Thank you . About the customs I'd say that in Southeast Asia they were pretty "relaxed", I mean, we weren't registered even once and we didn't have any problem getting into. But I do remember that the checkpoint in the Jordan-Syrian border took forever because the Syrian officials had to check every single passport since they do not allow any tourist with an Israeli visa on them, so as long as you don't have one you should be fine, but right now with the political situation I'm not sure if crossing is that easy...hno:


Does Israel even stamp passports anymore, opting for stamping 'Post-It' note slips instead?

Mike


----------



## alce9316

mgk920 said:


> Does Israel even stamp passports anymore, opting for stamping 'Post-It' note slips instead?
> 
> Mike


Actually, I don't really know, never been to Israel, but I've read on some travelling forums that you may get the visa stamped on a separate sheet of paper, so you might be right. Anyone here can confirm this?


----------



## Shifty2k5

Fabri88 said:


> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/15458074?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because when you enter Denmark, you don't enter ONLY Denmark!!!
> 
> I love the fact that next to every border crossing between Germany and Denmark there are the 5 Nordic flags!!!


I like that. It really shows that you are entering a different part of Europe


----------



## alserrod

alce9316 said:


> Thank you . About the customs I'd say that in Southeast Asia they were pretty "relaxed", I mean, we weren't registered even once and we didn't have any problem getting into. But I do remember that the checkpoint in the Jordan-Syrian border took forever because the Syrian officials had to check every single passport since they do not allow any tourist with an Israeli visa on them, so as long as you don't have one you should be fine, but right now with the political situation I'm not sure if crossing is that easy...hno:




Anyway... should you have lost your passport or expired it and required a new passport, you will never have a visa from Israel.

Should you request a new one because lost and it is not lost... you have two different passports... one to go to Israel, another to go to Syria...


----------



## alserrod

When a border is not important for football teams...




At Spain, football league should had to start last weekend but didn't because players were on strike. They prepared a strike for the first two matches (last weekend and this weekend).


Finally they met an agreement and strike will not go on this weekend. They will start the championship with match number two and found when to play match number one.


The problem is that some teams didn't want to buy plane tickets until they had assured that league starts... and it is the weekend when a lot of people comes back from holidays.

In the Major league (Primera division or Liga BBVA) there are no problems. They are lucky and in most of cases the matches are between teams of cities located near, they have good train shuttle or sometimes the team has their own plane. They are teams with a larger budget... The greater distance is from Valencia to Santander, 800 km entirely by motorway... apart of the team of Mallorca which has to go to Barcelona... but there are too many flights... and ships to go there (should they have a different destination they could find problems, but not to Barcelona)


Problems start on the Second League. Teams with a smaller budget. There are teams that uses bus for almost all journeys, except if too long (corner to corner) or, obviously, if they have to go to islands.

There are, mainly, three matches that could have problems of distance. 

The team of Vigo will have to run 1.000 km to Murcia for the match. They wanted to plan a trip by plane but no seats available.

The team of Las Palmas has to go to Guadalajara, at Castilla La Mancha. They said they had no further tickets available because most of people returns from holiday on these dates... They have only the way of plane (3.000 km of ocean...) and let' see what they do. They play saturday evening.



And... the team of Huelva (the oldest in Spain) has to go to La Coruña. 950 km of motorway.

But... choose at google maps the shortest way... it will be done 90% inside Portugal. Huelva is close to border. They will cross Portugal south to north and cross to Spain again for the match. 
Within Spanish roads only they will have to make 100 km more.



Football has no borders in this way, of course!!!!


----------



## ApskeA

First time that i uploaded a pic. if it doesn't work could some please explain how to upload pics??


----------



## g.spinoza

ApskeA said:


> First time that i uploaded a pic. if it doesn't work could some please explain how to upload pics??


You should not post the entire page retrieved by google images, just the pic, by pressing "Afbeelding op volledige grootte". That is the url you must use.


----------



## Attus

alserrod said:


> Should you request a new one because lost and it is not lost... you have two different passports... one to go to Israel, another to go to Syria...


It is not needed to report it as lost. In Hungary everyone can have two passportst legally, one for Israel and the other one for the rest of the world.


----------



## alserrod

In Spain people just does not have passport.
There is an Identity card, compulsory for everyone and all citizens carry it in their pockets (some years before maybe not so often but now you have to show it everytime if paying with credit card)

It is like this










In one side, number, name, photo, scanned signature, Sex, date of Birth, date of expire and some numbers for control
In the other side, Address, name of parents, place of birth, etc...

It has one chip to operate by internet doing legal transactions (not very used but you can request an official paper in some administrations with it... or just use for operating in your bank, instead of the user and password your bank gives you).

With this document, it is allowed to move inside any country of European Union and some countries more around.
The reason is "freedom of movements within UE". Should a document is enough to move inside one country of UE, it should be enough to move anywhere of UE.
Another point is that in some countries, not used with this document, it will be easier for some cases using a passport.

But in fact, it is a document that ALL people carry (dimensions are the same than the credit card, so very easy to carry in the pocket-bag), as well few people has a passport.

In fact... my passport is expired. Should I need to used it, I will have to ask for a new one (but no need to pay taxes for new passport if I am not going to use it...)


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Portugal has:










which is called a Citizen Card, which is replacing the ID card


----------



## alserrod

In Spain they didn't change the name of the document... and both are legal (if no expired). Older people still uses the old document.


----------



## Attus

alserrod said:


> In Spain people just does not have passport.


Right, since 2004 (Hungary entering EU) much less people here have a passort, than before. I myself have one since I was in Ukraine two years ago and Hungarian ID is not valid to UA. But I'm the only one in my family having a passport. As for Hungarian citizens ID card is enough for all EU member and Switzerland, Croatia, Serbia.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I have a Portuguese ID card and a British passport

My ID card is actually the new Citizen Card thing, but most people still call it an ID card. The citizen card has your social security, fiscal identification number and healthcare number. The old ID cars was only ID


----------



## g.spinoza

Italy had this one good idea of extending the validity of ID cards not by renewing the document but just with a stamp and a signature by a civil servant. Problem is that not all countries recognise this, so I'm forced to carry with me my passport, even here in Germany where I would not need it.


----------



## alserrod

I think that as fas as countries will discover the facilities of carrying a card with dimensions of credit card and a chip inside instead of a 32 pages book for own documentation, will start thinking in changing it.

Later on a similar format.


----------



## italystf

AtD said:


> Are Ceuta and Melilla in the Schengen area?


Off course, they're part of a Schengen country!


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Off course, they're part of a Schengen country!


That does not mean anything. Guadaloupe and Martinique are integral part of France, but they're outside Schengen. There are many other examples of this.


----------



## eucitizen

Markowice10 said:


> The citizens of European Union can travel from Identity Card only, to Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro and Abaniia, also.


Sure you can enter Macedonia with the id card but as they don't have the right technology to read id cards they have to put all your data manually into their system. Last time when I was there I talked about this with the officer and he told me that to pass faster it is better to show the passport. Asking when they upgrade their system he said probably when entering EU. Pity that in the Eu border controls are really a formality and it would be a waste of money.


----------



## eucitizen

g.spinoza said:


> Italy had this one good idea of extending the validity of ID cards not by renewing the document but just with a stamp and a signature by a civil servant. Problem is that not all countries recognize this, so I'm forced to carry with me my passport, even here in Germany where I would not need it.


This is really ridiculous if you think that the old id electronic card can be renewed giving you a special paper which is not recognized in many EU countries. It is shame that Italy isn't able to issue the electronic card, it is still in experimental mode after more than 10 years!
I hate the old id card it is a shame so I didn't want to renew it and pretended to get the new electronic card. It was a hard battle with the public employee he tried to convince to get still the old id card because it is cheaper and immediately issued. i preferred to spend more money and to wait 5 days to get it and now I can travel without being ashamed to show a document of the 50' years.


----------



## Attus

alserrod said:


> I think that as fas as countries will discover the facilities of carrying a card with dimensions of credit card and a chip inside instead of a 32 pages book for own documentation, will start thinking in changing it.
> Later on a similar format.


It can only work if all border stations of the world will have proper electronical equipment for using such a chip. Including those between poor countries somewhere in the middle of the jungle or a desert.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

hofburg said:


> I forgot how my passport looks like  once I checked in at Paris CDG airport only with a driving licence. forgot ID card in appartment
> 
> anyway, why new EU driving licence cards don't have translations anymore? I just got new one few weeks ago, I wonder what they will understand in France...


If they put it into a compute I think it'll come up in French.


----------



## bogdymol

^^ I think that the new EU driving licence is the same in all EU countries, so even though it's written only in Romanian, Bulgarian or Spanish every policemen in the EU knows what's there (I mean, in each field is exactly the same thing written regarding of the language used).


----------



## DanielFigFoz

The British driving license has two sections:

the card:



















and the paper:


----------



## eucitizen

The news EU driving license is standardized and it is written in all EU official languages. The problem is that sometimes they are hardly readable and mixed up with the graphic of the driving license. Look for example the Estonian model:

http://prado.consilium.europa.eu/IT/2931/viewImage_68968.html

you can notice that driving license is written in all EU languages.

Or look at the UK driving license at the top of it and you will find all the languages.


----------



## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> That does not mean anything. Guadaloupe and Martinique are integral part of France, but they're outside Schengen. There are many other examples of this.





All Spain is inside Schengen treaty, but the only borders are at continental Spain and Ceuta and Melilla (with Morocco).

Balearic islands and Canary islands are part of that territory.

From Canary islands there are flights to United States and Morocco and to Senegal (Madrid-Gran Canaria-Dakar with Iberia) as well to Western Sahara (El Aaiun Airport). Yeah... it is part of Morocco but the only foreing flight that arrives there.


----------



## brisavoine

AtD said:


> ^ Yeah Saint Martin doesn't _really_ count, it's an internal EU border. :lol:


The Dutch part of St Martin is not inside the EU. Only the French part is.


----------



## hofburg

Penn's Woods said:


> ?
> What's that about (just curious)?


before there was a driving licence will all official languages of EU, in form of some "pocketbook".  but now it's a plastic card, as Bogdymol said.



bogdymol said:


> Is it similar with this one? We now use the new European driving licence here, but I have the old model (still valid untill it expires).
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/RO_licence_front.jpg





bogdymol said:


> ^^ I think that the new EU driving licence is the same in all EU countries, so even though it's written only in Romanian, Bulgarian or Spanish every policemen in the EU knows what's there (I mean, in each field is exactly the same thing written regarding of the language used).


yeah.



g.spinoza said:


> Italy had this one good idea of extending the validity of ID cards not by renewing the document but just with a stamp and a signature by a civil servant. Problem is that not all countries recognise this, so I'm forced to carry with me my passport, even here in Germany where I would not need it.


so, that's not a card, but some paper.  you should get a modern plastic one.


----------



## g.spinoza

hofburg said:


> so, that's not a card, but some paper.  you should get a modern plastic one.


Not my priority, since it's not free. I'll wait until it expires in 2014 and then I'll get a new one. In the meantime I get by with my passport, which expires in 2019, I think.


----------



## alserrod

About different languages on documents.

There is a not official but useful document standarized for all languages in EU.

It is the car accident report. That one you can make with another driver that you will not assume any responsibility but will help management for your insurance.

The format is the same in any language. So if you go abroad and you are not lucky and have to use it... the report in that country will have the same.

It is enough for you to check with your own report what it says in that language and write where you have, or just put a cross where it applyes.


As an example... that report in Spanish is:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I have never seen anything like that before. In the UK each person in an accident just trades insurance details


----------



## bogdymol

alserrod said:


> As an example... that report in Spanish is:
> http://loquenoaprendienelcole.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/parte.jpg


We have the same thing in Romania:










I noticed that there is no similar EU car registration documents. The romanian one looks like this:


----------



## Road_UK

DanielFigFoz said:


> I have never seen anything like that before. In the UK each person in an accident just trades insurance details


These are standard EU issue. But, as usual, the UK has to be different and always knows best, hence the world's biggest insurance scams being commited there.


----------



## Attus

We use the very same form in Hungary so that if I'm unlucky enough to have an accident in Denmark, I can use Danish form even if I can't understand a word since I have a Hungarian one, and form items are the very same.


----------



## nenea_hartia

^ After seeing all of those, one can understand what a great thing is EU standardisation. I hope that the effort of harmonization of laws and regulations throughout the EU to continue furthermore.


----------



## alserrod

And the best... it is a standarisation made on an not official form!!!!!!. It is only a non compulsory form for insurance companies.

I think the other document standarised is the passport.

The form for accidents helps you that it is written in only one language but having a copy in your own language you will understand everything nevertheless where you are.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I also lived in Portugal and I didn't see that form either


----------



## ChrisZwolle

If you see that form it's bad news anyway


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I was in a crash once in Portugal, but there wasn't any of that


----------



## garethni

DanielFigFoz said:


> The British driving license has two sections:
> 
> the card:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and the paper:


There are two versions of the UK licence because there are two issuing authorities. That one is given to GB drivers by DVLA in Swansea. Northern Ireland's licences have a different counterpart and are issued by DVANI in Coleraine. Until a few weeks ago the cards were made there, but now they are done in Swansea for them to cut down on costs! I am not sure about the new ones but the older cards were slightly different in design to the old DVLA ones. And the driver number format is just numerals, and much shorter too!


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Thats true, I don;t know what the NI licences look like


----------



## alserrod

Spanish driving licence is very similar to GB but it doesn't appear any more your address










It was a technical change they made about 10 years ago. No address on driving licence nor on passport!!!! (and not at health service card or other official cards).

It only appears your address at your ID card... and in the owner car form (it is not a "personal" card like the driving licence but a documentation about the card).

So then, if you are changing your address (I made three changes in 3 years and I made a "home movement master"), it is enough to declare to traffic authorities the new address (and keeping a copy of notification because they must send you all fines or information to new address... should they send you later any letter to the old one you can say you haven't received it).


And of course, it is easy to think that a policeman in Great Britain will understand a Spanish driving licence and upside down...


In the reverse it appears which kind of vehicles you are authorised to drive.


----------



## garethni

DanielFigFoz said:


> Thats true, I don;t know what the NI licences look like


It appears the new ones look very much like the DVLA ones: PDF

There is a description of the old one here. I don't have mine with me at the moment, but when I got a new (old) one last year it was like the description on that page. Like the old DVLA ones with a different background and security thing over the photo etc.

Another difference seems to be that you (at least used to) get automatic permanent provisional entitlement for Category A motorbikes without having to do any extra training like in GB.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> These are standard EU issue. But, as usual, the UK has to be different and always knows best, hence the world's biggest insurance scams being commited there.


There's always be an England, and England shall be freeeeeee!

:cheers:


----------



## Penn's Woods

DanielFigFoz said:


> I also lived in Portugal and I didn't see that form either


And you also insist on using your own time zone. You're as bad as the Brits. [tongue in cheek]


----------



## Penn's Woods

Attus said:


> We use the very same form in Hungary so that if I'm unlucky enough to have an accident in Denmark, I can use Danish form even if I can't understand a word since I have a Hungarian one, and form items are the very same.


How many accidents do you have, that you've memorized the fields on the form?! [still joking]


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Penn's Woods said:


> And you also insist on using your own time zone. You're as bad as the Brits. [tongue in cheek]


Of course of course :lol:. The British-Portuguese alliance is the oldest official alliance of both countries. 

The Spanish and the French should be on GMT but they're not. It must be strange to move to Galicia the daylight must be a bit off.


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> How many accidents do you have, that you've memorized the fields on the form?! [still joking]




Had only used once. And of course, I do not remember fields of forms... but in my car I have always one (and should I send an accident form my company will send back a new one to have prepared). So if I have to use one in a language I do not know, I have the translation prepared.


----------



## alserrod

DanielFigFoz said:


> Of course of course :lol:. The British-Portuguese alliance is the oldest official alliance of both countries.
> 
> The Spanish and the French should be on GMT but they're not. It must be strange to move to Galicia the daylight must be a bit off.




It has GMT+1 (GMT+2 in summer) even if the Greenwich meridian crosses the country by the most eastern zone (Alicante is the biggest city crossed by that Meridian).

But relations with Central Europe made, since a long, having the same time. This is, GMT+1 instead GMT.

It is "not free"... this is... when you arrive to Spain and you see that costumes make doing all later, it is partially due because sun (later to work, later lunch hours, later dinner... and later closing pubs on weekends...).



P.D. - 1 From Barcelona to Santiago de Compostela there is one sunny hour exactly

P.D. - 2 Canary islands, being in the Atlantic and not so referred to Central Europe is GMT (GMT+1) when they should have GMT-1


----------



## CNGL

DanielFigFoz said:


> Of course of course :lol:. The British-Portuguese alliance is the oldest official alliance of both countries.
> 
> The Spanish and the French should be on GMT but they're not. It must be strange to move to Galicia the daylight must be a bit off.


In 2009 I went to Cambados for vacation, and I remember sunset was almost an hour later than in my hometown.

This year I passed vacation in Hondarribia (Fuenterrabía, Fontarrabie), and I had time for some bordergeeking. Still I have to pass the photos to the computer.


----------



## mgk920

USA passports do not show a pre-printed address, either. The State Department recommends that you *pencil* it in so that it can be easily changed if/when you move.

Mike


----------



## gorefest

Oh dear Lord !!!mg:mg: i`ve just seen a border crossing between Macedonia and Bulgaria ... how in the world is possible in XXI century to have such places ?  in an EU state .. does anyone know about this CheckPoint on Berovo ? I really hope the pictures are just old or maybe it is just a disposed checkpoint... hno:


----------



## alserrod

Is there any control? Is the road opened at all times?


----------



## eucitizen

I don't think it is opened, there is no road!! It looks abandoned.
Where is it exactly?


----------



## eucitizen

Is it this place?

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Berov...74908&sspn=0.242848,0.604248&vpsrc=6&t=h&z=18

Then it is located on Macedonian side of the border. Looking on the map you may notice that there is no road going there from Bulgaria. It would be interesting if anyone from Macedonia or Bulgaria can explain why they didn't open that border


----------



## gorefest

eucitizen said:


> Is it this place?
> 
> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Berov...74908&sspn=0.242848,0.604248&vpsrc=6&t=h&z=18
> 
> Then it is located on Macedonian side of the border. Looking on the map you may notice that there is no road going there from Bulgaria. It would be interesting if anyone from Macedonia or Bulgaria can explain why they didn't open that border


Yes , that was my curiosity too ... it seems like a project started and abandoned or something like this ... silly me .. i didn`t even took notice to look a bit more carefully to see that the roads don`t link together from Bulgaria to Macedonia or viceversa .. from what i`ve seen there are actually roads but not one single segment of tarmac ... at least on the bulgarian side , the road looks like this ...







.. as for the macedonian side didn`t found any pictures of the road ...


----------



## signol

alce9316 said:


> Actually, I don't really know, never been to Israel, but I've read on some travelling forums that you may get the visa stamped on a separate sheet of paper, so you might be right. Anyone here can confirm this?


This is usually the case - I arrived in Israel at the land border with Egypt at Taba/Eilat (sorry no photos! but a short description here ), and was offered a stamp on paper. But here it was a waste of time, as an exit stamp at Taba is just as "offensive" to, eg Syrians, as an Israeli stamp. I have heard from others arriving by air that sometimes they stamp a piece of paper automatically, sometimes you have to ask. For me, the point is moot, since I have a new passport since then!

signol


----------



## gorefest

signol said:


> I arrived in Israel at the land border with Egypt at Taba/Eilat (sorry no photos! but a short description here ),


found some photos .... egiptian side

























israelian side :


















oh geez .. but what kind of birocracy ... ho many formulars you have to fill it up ...hno:
egiptian formular :









israelian formular:









Source : http://www.bridgeandtunnelclub.com/bigmap/outoftown/egypt/sinai/taba-eilat/visa01.jpg


----------



## gabrielbabb

Cañon de Santa Elena, Coahuila, México - Big Bend National Park, Texas, EEUU














*Mexico-Belize*









*Mexico-Guatemala*









*Mexico-California* (La esquina de Latinoamérica)









*Mexico-Arizona*









*Mexico-New Mexico*









*Mexico-Texas*







[/QUOTE]




















San Diego - Tijuana


----------



## ScraperDude

gorefest said:


> Oh dear Lord !!!mg:mg: i`ve just seen a border crossing between Macedonia and Bulgaria ... how in the world is possible in XXI century to have such places ?  in an EU state .. does anyone know about this CheckPoint on Berovo ? I really hope the pictures are just old or maybe it is just a disposed checkpoint... hno:
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> According to this website I googled, this checkpoint has been sitting there unused for over 2 decades.
> http://www.hotelmanastir.com.mk/newsNext1Eng.php


----------



## an-148

same form in Belgium


----------



## erxgli

I like this picture with the Big Ben National Park. I think it shouldn't be a border. A beautiful place like this one shouldn't be divided.



gabrielbabb said:


> Cañon de Santa Elena, Coahuila, México - Big Bend National Park, Texas, EEUU




I like the turquoise color of the water... It's so beautiful


gabrielbabb said:


> *Mexico-Guatemala*


----------



## gorefest

ScraperDude said:


> According to this website I googled, this checkpoint has been sitting there unused for over 2 decades.
> http://www.hotelmanastir.com.mk/newsNext1Eng.php


thanks for the information  :cheers:


----------



## RipleyLV

*Rajka (H) - Rusovce (SK)*

While waiting on Saturday before trucks could drive in Slovakia, I got bored and went up to this viaduct between both borders and took a few pictures from up there.
*1.* View to Hungarian side.









*2.* Slovakian side.









*3.* During the summer Slovakia is closed for trucks on Saturdays untill 20:00.


----------



## Tego

bogdymol said:


> We have the same thing in Romania:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When seeing that, this comes to my mind:










That's a Bulgarian road accident protocol for colliding with a wild boar.


----------



## CNGL

Not a road, but here is the craziest border ever.
There are some Northkorean tunnels that lead to South Korea. The latter found these, and opened its part of one to the public. This photo was taken ignoring the ban of taking photos, but here is it:









Just after that door lies the border between South and North Korea, the last standing cold war border.


----------



## Suissetralia

^^ good set for a terror movie :lol:


----------



## gorefest

CNGL said:


> Not a road, but here is the craziest border ever.
> There are some Northkorean tunnels that lead to South Korea. The latter found these, and opened its part of one to the public. This photo was taken ignoring the ban of taking photos, but here is it:
> [IM://fronterasblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/undergroundkorea1.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Just after that door lies the border between South and North Korea, the last standing cold war border.


oh , wow !!!!!!! it really is spooky !  found something on youtube ....this is a short tour from the crossing border in the demilitarized zone between South Korea and North Korea


----------



## pobre diablo

gorefest said:


> Oh dear Lord !!!mg:mg: i`ve just seen a border crossing between Macedonia and Bulgaria ... how in the world is possible in XXI century to have such places ?  in an EU state ..


FYROM where this "beauty" is located, is not an EU state.


----------



## alserrod

When a border can be strongest than what you want...


In the middle of the Pyrenees, at Puigcerda, an international hospital was built. It is located just a few kilometres from the border in the mainest town of the area and can be used ever by Spanish or French citizens. There is not a lot of population in the area in France and it helps to have health assistance there.
Should a French citizen go to that hospital he will use as if he goes to an another French hospital. The rest... for administrative and invoices tasks, but it is public hospital at all.


There are, however, some problems with the border. One of the trying to solve it.

1- The hospital is at Spain... and French babies born there are born abroad at all. For the law it doesn't matter if it is the nearest hospital for the mother and has an agreement to use it. The baby was born abroad and has to be registered at the French consulate at Barcelona. For all business in the future he will have to ask born documentation to that consulate or to the embassy at Madrid.

Problem can be solved with a change in French laws.

2- Should a person death in the hospital (a long illness, an accident, etc...) he was death abroad if he was French.
EU is very strong in this area and Death people can cross a border only in closed coffins. That makes relatives will not be able to see it (the can do it in the hospital before closing coffin). Coffin cannot be opened after crossing the border and doesn't allow cremation.

It is strange that having the first binational hospital, where people go there not only because it is the nearest hospital but because it is the hospital related for his area... and later they have so many problems with the border.


It has been required to UE to make an exception with that hospital
http://www.altpirineu.org/index.php...ui-un-escull-en-el-trasllat-dels-difunts.html


----------



## El Tiburon

alserrod said:


> 2- Should a person death in the hospital (a long illness, an accident, etc...) he was death abroad if he was French.
> EU is very strong in this area and Death people can cross a border only in closed coffins. That makes relatives will not be able to see it (the can do it in the hospital before closing coffin). Coffin cannot be opened after crossing the border and doesn't allow cremation.


Problem can be solved if some enterprising funeral director opens a funeral home in Catalunyan territory to cater to the need of family and friends to have a proper open-casket funeral for their loved ones. Family and friends of French decedents can cross into Catalunya for the funeral wake and then close the casket and drive to the cemetery in France for burial just like if the person had died in France.


----------



## erxgli

*Funny!!! There's a Mexico and a New Mexico:lol::lol::lol::lol:*


gabrielbabb said:


> *Mexico-New Mexico*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You just found out?


----------



## mgk920

gorefest said:


> oh , wow !!!!!!! it really is spooky !  found something on youtube ....this is a short tour from the crossing border in the demilitarized zone between South Korea and North Korea


The site:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=37.956016,126.675947&spn=0.005042,0.010986&t=h&z=17&vpsrc=6

If you pan to the west a bit, the great expressway to Pyongyang begins a short distance to the west on the main access road.

Mike


----------



## Reteip

*Border Belgium-France near by Moeskroen/Lille*

I’m new here, and this is my very first post.
I’ve always been fascinated by bordercrossings. Some time ago, I crossed the Belgian-French border, and went to Lille. A few pictures were taken at the French-Wallonian border, a few at the Flemish-French border. Wallonia (where Moeskroen/Mouscron is) and Flanders (where Rekkem is), are very near to each other here. It’s noticeble that the buildingstyle on the border is pretty much the same. It’s the typical old Flemish building style. 










Right on the French-Belgian border, at Neuville-en-Ferrain. When you pass the white sign, you’re in Moeskroen (Mouscron in French). 








Photo taken at the exact same place, but turned 180°. 








30m further up the road, the border crossing again. The café with the Belgian Beer brand Jupiler is boderline Belgium.








30m further up the road, the border crossing again. The café with the Belgian Beer brand Jupiler is boderline Belgium.








Side road of the main road. This street is 100% in France.








The little street Rue Briand (yellow plate) is French. The white Citroën van is in Belgium.


----------



## Reteip

*Border Belgium-France near by Moeskroen/Lille part 2*

A km further down the road, you find the Halluin-Rekkem border (=Flanders)
You can see the border when you look at road.The street that runs trough Flanders is called the Donkaardstraat, in France it’s calld Rue Du Dronkaerd, a ‘translation’.

Picure taken in Rekkem, facing Neuville-en-Ferrain/Halluin.
















This lighting is situated exactly on the border. The yellow house is France, the red one Belgium.








France has placed a ‘no garbage dropping here’-sign ,100 meter futher down the road, both in French and Dutch. Notice the advertisement of the French beerbrand 1664, that is almost unknown in Belgium.








The cottage and darkgrey Renault and light grey Peugeot are still france.








Photo taken on the bridge over the highway Kortrijk-Lille. A bit futher we can see the border crossing in Rekkem. The French sign only shows Belgian cities. 








Same bridge, now facing Rijsel/Lille.








Border crossing France-Belgium from the highway. 








Back in Belgium


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Welcome! Interesting pictures. In the UK that beer is known as Kronenbourg 1664


----------



## italystf

How they did at this town split between France and Belgium before Schengen?


----------



## Daviedoff

Nice pics!



> Donkaardstraat


I thought in Flanders the street name is also the "Dronckaertstraat".


----------



## Reteip

Daviedoff said:


> Nice pics!
> 
> 
> 
> I thought in Flanders the street name is also the "Dronckaertstraat".


You are right! It's indeed 'Drockaertstraat' in Menen. http://en.mappy.com/#d=dronkaardstraat,+menen&p=map

Dronckaert is probably the old Flemish word.


----------



## 122347

*Portugal/Galiza border*























































http://maps.google.pt/maps?q=Portel...130537&sspn=0.008493,0.01929&vpsrc=6&t=h&z=16


----------



## Fatfield

^^

What's with all the graffiti?


----------



## 122347

Fatfield said:


> What's with all the graffiti?


Galician Nationalism and Pro-Portuguese


----------



## Penn's Woods

Reteip said:


> You are right! It's indeed 'Drockaertstraat' in Menen. http://en.mappy.com/#d=dronkaardstraat,+menen&p=map
> 
> Dronckaert is probably the old Flemish word.


Does it mean the same thing as "drunkard" (a habitual drunk) in English?


----------



## Reteip

Penn's Woods said:


> Does it mean the same thing as "drunkard" (a habitual drunk) in English?


Yes indeed! A lot of dutch/flemish words seems like english.



italystf said:


> How they did at this town split between France and Belgium before Schengen?


Probably with border controls.
I remember border controles 10 years ago on the border between Luxembourg-France (after Schengen).
Actualy: on the Belgian-French border on the highway, there is still (sometimes) controls (for youth French people who visited The Netherlands for the flowers, mills and maybe the weed).

@Costa: scary abandoned borderbuilding in Portugal! Thanks for posting. Keep up posting.


----------



## bogdymol

Nădlac / Nagylak (Romania / Hungary) border crossing:



















Hungarian side (where is the actual check):










Hungary:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

The blog about the Portuguese-Spanish border hasn't been updated recently . When it its I'll show you as normal


----------



## ScraperDude

erxgli said:


> *Funny!!! There's a Mexico and a New Mexico:lol::lol::lol::lol:*





ChrisZwolle said:


> You just found out?


UGH! He isn't the only one. I was in New Mexico last month and my brother called and asked where I was. I said on vacation in New Mexico. My brother replies: "Theres a New one???" :bash::bash:


----------



## Suburbanist

Hanno1983 said:


> You wrote about Alsace-Lorraine. French assimilation-strategy succeeded because most Alsatians in their hearts felt French culture more modern than German one. They didn't plan to become French speaking. But they did more and more.


What about an alternative narrative: after 150 years of oppression and settlement by Austrians, Italians liberated themselves and, after driving the enemy away, were keen enough to let the innocent civilians stay in stolen lands, despite the fact Austrian soldiers killed more than 600.000 Italians when they already knew their empire was gone.




> Same problem was in Poland with German minority between WWI and WWII. If Silesians would have been allowed to stay after 1945 Poland would have got a very big problem at the latest in 1989.
> So my thesis is that "peaceful" assimilation is only possible if a major part of minority accept majority culture as attractive. Otherwise only forced assimilation or forced moving is possible. Both are no solutions for democratic governments.


Different situations. Poland was treated as as a victim of war, whilst Italy and Austria were treated as lesser evil defeated countries. Had Italy not surrender ed in 1943, I'm sure many other Italian territories would be lost to France, probably some to Austria and much to Yugoslavia. But to have not surrendered in 1943 would be an immense mistake, and it is impossible to predict any larger scale consequences that would have ensued. (Many people, to this day, still ignores the fact and forget that all resistance from 1943 onward was mounted by German under, at best, non-cooperative occupation but usually outright hostility).

In that sense, Italy was somehow fortunate to have lost only Dalmatia, Istria and some areas in the Piemontese Alps to France, compared to what happened to Germany which saw its territory shrink and be divided into occupation zones.



> There is one big mistake in your argumentation. South Tyrolian cultural autonomy and bilingualism is not a present Italy gave to South Tyrolians. It is a duty of all democratic countries against autochthonous minorities.
> I am surprised that you compare democratic Italy after WWII with communist Yugoslavia.
> I've got respect for this solution you found for South Tyrol. It is taken as positive example all over Europe. But you are wrong if you think that South Tyrolians have to be thankful. And I am sad that you see a problem that they still are not "real" Italians and speak German better than Italian. They are loyal citizens of Italy. I see no problem in their different culture.
> Only problem in my opinion is ethnic devision of society, especially in Bozen and Meran.
> Why don't you see cultural enrichment South Tyrolians give to Italy?


Please, check the St. Bernard Treaty of Saint-Germain.

The concept of "Italian culture" itself is the amalgamation of very different cultural heritages from Sicily to Aosta. The question not any cultural contribution, but the excessive money the province gets. It is just unfair they get to keep 90% of the taxes collected in the province, a threshold far higher than any other province, especially considering they didn't take responsibility for more than, at most, 70% of costs of public services otherwise paid by the central Italian government. 



> I think leaving Italy is not a priority to most South Tyrolians. Most of them are ok with autonomy, open borders and so on. Positive result of EU by the way.
> Problem is more at people like you with old-fashioned national understanding. But these times are over. Relict of those times is Italian speaking majority in Bozen as a result of fascist Italianization.


People migrate, you know. Bolzano was an industrial center of relevance, and so, as every other medium city in the area like Treviso, Verona, Trento, Belluno, attracted a lot of impoverished rural farmers in the 1920 up to WW2, and after the war, to work on factories.

In any case, the situation is quiet over there, they got plenty of extra money, nobody is complaining and anyone age below 50 speaks Italian. Bored teenagers sometimes vandalize bi-lingual traffic signs, and for doing so they should be punished.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

You can't deny that they Italianised Bolzano on purpose, but oh well such is life, they didn't kill the people that were there


----------



## Alex Trst

Suburbanist said:


> What about an alternative narrative: after 150 years of oppression and settlement by Austrians, Italians liberated themselves and, after driving the enemy away, were keen enough to let the innocent civilians stay in stolen lands, despite the fact Austrian soldiers killed more than 600.000 Italians when they already knew their empire was gone.


"Austrians" at the time didn't mean just German-speaking people, and Italians were Austrians too.
You say "Austrian" soldiers killed 600.000 Italians in WWI, but Italy was the aggressor against Austria, not the opposite, and Italians killed too. My grandfathers were Italians of Austria, and they fought for Austria against Italy, and they felt Austria was their country. Just like Italians of Canton Ticino love Switzerland.



Suburbanist said:


> In that sense, Italy was somehow fortunate to have lost only Dalmatia, Istria and some areas in the Piemontese Alps to France, compared to what happened to Germany which saw its territory shrink and be divided into occupation zones.


Italy never lost Dalmatia, as Dalmatia has never been part of Italy, except the town of Zara between 1921-1943(de jure 1947).


----------



## NordikNerd

bogdymol said:


> Nădlac / Nagylak (Romania / Hungary) border ,
> Hungary:


what does the symbol at the bottom mean, headlights may not be used in the city at daytime?

do people turn off the headlights in the cities ?


----------



## Attus

NordikNerd said:


> what does the symbol at the bottom mean, headlights may not be used in the city at daytime?


No, on the contrary: headlights must be used outside towns, even daylight.


----------



## Suburbanist

NordikNerd said:


> what does the symbol at the bottom mean, headlights may not be used in the city at daytime?
> 
> do people turn off the headlights in the cities ?


No, headlights should be used outside towns and cities all the time. The red crossed symbol means "not" in the case, which you combine with the headlights-on sign.


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Suchiate River, borderline between Mexico (Right side) and Guatemala (Left Side) Hotu Matua's pic.*



Hotu Matua said:


> La foto que sigue es también inédita en SCC. :bowtie:
> Se trata del Río Suchiate, en su desembocadura en el Oceano Pacífico.
> Este río sirve de frontera entre Guatemala ( a la izquierda) y México (a la derecha).
> 
> 
> Suchiate por Hotu Matua, en Flickr


----------



## vatse

Border of Rwanda and Burundi










from http://tarmotamming.blogspot.com


----------



## vatse

Border of South Sudan and DR Congo between Yei and Aba









road near the border









from http://tarmotamming.blogspot.com


----------



## Palance

x-type said:


> are there some ancient photos showin customs booths at Walserberg?












(Indeed hard to find one)


----------



## De Klauw

Reteip said:


> You are right! It's indeed 'Drockaertstraat' in Menen. http://en.mappy.com/#d=dronkaardstraat,+menen&p=map
> 
> Dronckaert is probably the old Flemish word.


It's the name of a local hamlet. Although in modern spelling it is called Dronkaard (drunkard in English).


----------



## x-type

Palance said:


> (Indeed hard to find one)


i actually meant booths in function (this is obviously already Schengen times). and i expected something larger there.


----------



## MrAkumana

x-type said:


> i actually meant booths in function (this is obviously already Schengen times). and i expected something larger there.


I remember driving on that border crossing on the pre-schengen era and it wasn't very problematic or big as I only remember some police randomly stopping certain cars (pretty much like Switzerland before schengen that didn't really enforce checks with the EU but just stopped 1 car out of 30 most of the time). Most of the jams were from people stopping to exchange money and such... At least this is my experience the 3 or 4 times I drove on that area on the late 80's.


----------



## bogdymol

Danube is the border between Romania and Serbia near Drobeta Turnu Severin and Orsova (RO). The train I'm travelling with right now passes right next to the Danube.

Left - Romania
Right- Serbia










Here is the opposite:










Barajul Porţile de Fier I (Iron Gates I Dam) - it has a road on top and it's a border crossing for cars & trucks:










Vama Porţile de Fier I (Iron Gates I border crossing):









^^ Note the 2 border patrol cars in the lower right part of the picture

Barajul Porţile de Fier I (Iron Gates I Dam):


----------



## Nikkodemo

It's amazing the Danube River's size!! mg:


----------



## panda80

The Danube is so large there because it's in fact a lake, behind Portile de Fier I dam.


----------



## hofburg

even as a lake it's large. almost all slovenian waters are in there.


----------



## Christophorus

*Neum ("BiH") after Croatia in EU*

Maybe some forumers from Croatia can give some more detailed informations, as i felt the checking procedures are getting already more intense, i saw some severe works on new checkpoints on both HR sides on the Neum border. (Sorry fellows, no pics since it was dark already)

Im just asking myself, will there be a regime as it is for now for tourists and other people who just have to cross to go to Dubrovnik region, or "inner" Croatia with transit lines? 

Im assuming, since the Neum borders will become EU borders, everybody has to be controlled, got Passport or ID scanned and so on... if this is really going to happen Dubrovnik is going to become a kind of totally locked off from the croatian mainland?

Any information or links to croatian topics are gladly appreciated. Thx! :cheers:


----------



## hofburg

it won't be any different than now IMO. passports are checked either way, and it won't be schengen border (for some time).


----------



## hofburg

border crossing inside the Karavanke tunnel. (from bogdymol's video)










hm, austrian side is brighter. :weird:


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Karawanken tunnel, the border between Slovenia and Austria:





map: http://g.co/maps/habdn


----------



## kreden

I think it is because there is reflective paint on Austrian side.


----------



## Verso

Is that the Austrian or Carinthian coat of arms at 3:02?


----------



## hofburg

on the left, right? I also miss km indicators in wider areas on slovene section. austrian one has them.


----------



## x-type

from some reason there are white lights at Slovenian part, and mosty yellow lights on Austrian. i don't know why SLO side uses white lights :dunno:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

hofburg said:


> border crossing inside the Karavanke tunnel. (from bogdymol's video)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hm, austrian side is brighter. :weird:


:rofl: Karawanken


----------



## Road_UK

It's got the red and white side lights which are standard in Austrian tunnels. Are they on the Slovenian side as well? There aren't any at the German-Austrian border tunnel at Füssen/Reutte,
which means the full tunnel is in German hands even though half of it is in Austria.


----------



## x-type

Slovenia also uses that kind of LED lamps in tunnel (left white, right red). in HR we have both sides right, but in opposite direction left are right (for 2 way traffic)


----------



## Verso

DanielFigFoz said:


> :rofl: Karawanken


Sometimes they're called Karawank Mountains in English.


----------



## 122347

One of the most spectacular, remote and wild borders in Europe  

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=38069628&postcount=71


----------



## Nikkodemo

*France (French Guyana) and Brazil*


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Another pic between Mexico and USA. *


----------



## alserrod

bogdymol said:


> ^^ Karawanken tunnel, the border between Slovenia and Austria:
> 
> 
> map: http://g.co/maps/habdn





A very, very interesting video.

Congratulations


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Chile and Argentina.*


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Paraguay and Bolivia.*


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Please, try to see the difference between Haiti and the Dominican Republic*.


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Crossing USA in one second! :lol:

Tijuana - San Diego*





[/QUOTE]

:wtf: :lol:


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Ponta Pora (Brazil) and Pedro Juan Caballero (Paraguay)*









_Mazão Ramires | Flickr_


----------



## alserrod

The difference between Haiti and Dominican Republic is very easy... 
Even if you didn't post which is each country or where the north is, the answer is: no trees = Haiti.

It was part of the politic of Haiti, which made all the country without trees (a long history to write)...

but, appart of weather, there are some details:

- it is the only border in all the Caribbean sea (the only island with two different countries). (630km x 230 km in the widest points including both countries)

- each country has a different language and also a different ethnic population (maybe for a foreing will not be easy to discover but Haitian people are "more black" than Dominican, even if they live in the same island).

- Budget and incomings are very different for each country, even if the resources are the same.

- Haiti is now one of the most poor countries in the world (I think the poorest in the Caribbean). And it is only remembered when a disaster.
Dominican Republic has too many tourist resorts.


----------



## alserrod

And changing of continent: 

Border between Zimbabwe and Botswana.

It is restricted at Botswana because animals diseases. That is the official reason to have a lot of controls... but in fact every one there know that they want to control who enter in the country


----------



## alserrod

and in the same continent... but much more to the north, a night photo of the border Morocco-Spain


----------



## CNGL

alserrod said:


> The difference between Haiti and Dominican Republic is very easy...
> Even if you didn't post which is each country or where the north is, the answer is: no trees = Haiti.
> 
> It was part of the politic of Haiti, which made all the country without trees (a long history to write)...
> 
> but, appart of weather, there are some details:
> 
> - it is the only border in all the Caribbean sea (the only island with two different countries). (630km x 230 km in the widest points including both countries)
> 
> - each country has a different language and also a different ethnic population (maybe for a foreing will not be easy to discover but Haitian people are "more black" than Dominican, even if they live in the same island).
> 
> - Budget and incomings are very different for each country, even if the resources are the same.
> 
> - Haiti is now one of the most poor countries in the world (I think the poorest in the Caribbean). And it is only remembered when a disaster.
> Dominican Republic has too many tourist resorts.


There's another Caribbean island with border: St. Martin. I like it because it's the border between Netherlands and France, without Belgium in the middle. And even crazier, the Netherlands is South of France there!


----------



## Djurizmo

Nikkodemo said:


> It's amazing the Danube River's size!! mg:


Danube is widest at town Golubac:

LINK

Almost like a sea:


----------



## nenea_hartia

^ Yup. My job took me for six months on the other side of Danube, in the Romanian village of Coronini. From the beach chair of the guest house where I spent those pleasant days  I could clearly see the beautiful fortress of Golubac. So, where the beach chairs are is Romania, on the other side of Danube is Serbia:


----------



## alserrod

Wow!!!! It remembers me the film "The motorcycle Diaries" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Motorcycle_Diaries_(film))

In the film, the actor crosses swimming the Amazonas river... but it is not a border there. Anyways, a fantastic pic.


----------



## Nikkodemo

No doubt, I love the Danube river...:drool:


----------



## alserrod

I though Benzú check point border was opened but... it doesn't, there will be only one point opened for crossing the border.
At Melilla I am sure there are four ones (they appeared on news some months ago), even if one of them has more than 50% of traffic.

off-topic... Ceuta and Melilla have football teams in the four range at Spain. One plays against teams from Western Andalucia and the other with teams from Eastern Andalucia.

In the Cup they try to make that the first rounds will be between the "minor teams", only one match (not in each stadium) and the winner goes to the following round.

Because minimizing costs, the first rounds are between teams in the same "area". They can be strongest or not so much, but the same "area" and journeys are cheaper.

Last year the draw made a Ceuta-Melilla in the Cup. I think it is the first official match they made in 15 years at least (or more).

I really do not know how the team of Melilla went to Ceuta. They could go by road crossing Morocco or going by plane and Helicopter via Malaga (for them are really cheap those travels).

It was Ceuta who won and passed to the following round. In that round there are two matches in each stadium and there are no "areas". It is a "entirely" draw and you can play against any team, doesn't matter the category, location, etc...

The draw signaled a Ceuta - FC Barcelona in the cup!!!


----------



## CasaMor

^^ I think there's only one crossing point in Melilla, Bab Melilia (Puerta de Melilla). 

Melilla has an airport, the football team can go directly from any spanish airport. I'm not sure the moroccan authorities would let the Melilla team enter Morocco if it's an official game. Politics again. 

BTW, Tanger Med was built near Ceuta to kill the city's port traffic. There were millions of moroccans living aboard and tourists who cross the strait every year trought Ceuta, now they all go to Tanger Med and the port of Algeciras is also suffering from that. And a new port will be built near Melilla for the same reason, Nador West Med. 

A picture I made last saturday near Tanger Med, we can see Tarifa.


----------



## alserrod

CasaMor said:


> ^^ I think there's only one crossing point in Melilla, Bab Melilia (Puerta de Melilla).


In this case I'm sure there are four points. The mainest is Beni Enzar but there are three ones more





> Melilla has an airport, the football team can go directly from any spanish airport. I'm not sure the moroccan authorities would let the Melilla team enter Morocco if it's an official game. Politics again.



They would travel as tourist. One can take a bus or several cars and drive from one point to other

Anyway... Ceuta hasn't airport and it is very difficult to built there one. That's why it has a helicopter landind area (managed by the same public entreprise than almost all of Spanish airports). So a flight Melilla-Ceuta is not possible.
For those citizens, they can buy a domestic ticket where they will have a reduction of 50%, event with connections (only inside Spain, if they travel abroad they pay full fare). That's why making connections could not be so expensive for them.

Anyway... I have a mate at work who was born at Melilla. His family keeps there and he came to my city 20 years ago more or less. He, officially, lives at Melilla because the plane ticket reduction.
But in the last years... he says that a Madrid-Nador with Ryanair full fare is much cheaper than a Madrid-Melilla with Iberia half price... so he travels with Ryanair. His family will have to go for searching him in the airport and traveling 5 km or 40 km is not so many difference if the discount is important.





> BTW, Tanger Med was built near Ceuta to kill the city's port traffic. There were millions of moroccans living aboard and tourists who cross the strait every year trought Ceuta, now they all go to Tanger Med and the port of Algeciras is also suffering from that. And a new port will be built near Melilla for the same reason, Nador West Med.


Not only the traffic at Ceuta but also the border control.
If you get an Algeciras-Ceuta the border will be crossed at Ceuta and it is a chaos in some days.
If you get an Algeciras-Tanger, the border will be checked at Algeciras and Tanger and will be faster, faster, faster.



And off-topic... (sea borders...).

The narrowest point between Europe and Africa is only 14 km. Obviouly it is not possible to have the miles of territory in the sea. As far as I know, in the narrowest point, there are 4 km territory of Spain, 3 km lane only for Mediterranean to Atlantic, 3 km lane only for Atlantic to Mediterranean and 4 km territory of Morocco.

And any ship has to consider the importance of transversal traffic (ships from Morocco to Spain).

You will need a very accurate GPS to know "where you are", remembering that at Africa, when you approach by ship to Ceuta you enter again in Spanish territory and at Europe the same with Gibraltar (United Kingdom territory).

Several months ago a Spanish police patrol was running to catch on the sea for drug smugglers... and they appeared in the center of the Gibraltar harbour!.

The diplomatic conflict was, in the beginning, important. Later all was clear but... they were arrested only because carrying drugs, not smuggling, as far as they were arrested by British police.


----------



## CasaMor

alserrod said:


> In this case I'm sure there are four points. The mainest is Beni Enzar but there are three ones more


I have no idea. I've never been to Melilla.



> They would travel as tourist. One can take a bus or several cars and drive from one point to other
> 
> Anyway... Ceuta hasn't airport and it is very difficult to built there one. That's why it has a helicopter landind area (managed by the same public entreprise than almost all of Spanish airports). So a flight Melilla-Ceuta is not possible.
> For those citizens, they can buy a domestic ticket where they will have a reduction of 50%, event with connections (only inside Spain, if they travel abroad they pay full fare). That's why making connections could not be so expensive for them.
> 
> Anyway... I have a mate at work who was born at Melilla. His family keeps there and he came to my city 20 years ago more or less. He, officially, lives at Melilla because the plane ticket reduction.
> But in the last years... he says that a Madrid-Nador with Ryanair full fare is much cheaper than a Madrid-Melilla with Iberia half price... so he travels with Ryanair. His family will have to go for searching him in the airport and traveling 5 km or 40 km is not so many difference if the discount is important.


Madrid - Nador is a good idea but crossing the border not really. I hate terrestrial borders. I always take the plane to go to Spain.

I've been to Malaga's airport so many times, and I'm sure there's a flight Ceuta - Malaga. So a Ceuta - Malaga - Melilla is possible. 

I also have friends from Ceuta and Melilia with moroccans origins living in Spain, most of them in Malaga. 



> Not only the traffic at Ceuta but also the border control.
> If you get an Algeciras-Ceuta the border will be crossed at Ceuta and it is a chaos in some days.
> If you get an Algeciras-Tanger, the border will be checked at Algeciras and Tanger and will be faster, faster, faster.


Yup I know. There's no Algeciras - Tanger BTW. 
Tanger Med is not Tanger (Tanger city port). There's 2 maritime lines:

Tanger (city port) - Tarifa
Tanger Med - Algeciras





> And off-topic... (sea borders...).
> 
> The narrowest point between Europe and Africa is only 14 km. Obviouly it is not possible to have the miles of territory in the sea. As far as I know, in the narrowest point, there are 4 km territory of Spain, 3 km lane only for Mediterranean to Atlantic, 3 km lane only for Atlantic to Mediterranean and 4 km territory of Morocco.
> 
> And any ship has to consider the importance of transversal traffic (ships from Morocco to Spain).
> 
> You will need a very accurate GPS to know "where you are", remembering that at Africa, when you approach by ship to Ceuta you enter again in Spanish territory and at Europe the same with Gibraltar (United Kingdom territory).
> 
> Several months ago a Spanish police patrol was running to catch on the sea for drug smugglers... and they appeared in the center of the Gibraltar harbour!.
> 
> The diplomatic conflict was, in the beginning, important. Later all was clear but... they were arrested only because carrying drugs, not smuggling, as far as they were arrested by British police.


That means Ceuta ferrys use the moroccan territory. Not cool. :|


----------



## alserrod

CasaMor said:


> Madrid - Nador is a good idea but crossing the border not really. I hate terrestrial borders. I always take the plane to go to Spain.


There is a detail I forgot... Madrid-Melilla is with Iberia. Some luxes, very expensive and for Melillian citizens, 50% price.
Madrid-Nador is Ryanair.

I think that explains everything about crossing twice a border. He needs his passport to go to visit his parents to cross twice the border in just half an hour (check-in at Nador, check-in at Melilla)




> I've been to Malaga's airport so many times, and I'm sure there's a flight Ceuta - Malaga. So a Ceuta - Malaga - Melilla is possible.


In that case... a charter flight will be always cheaper than a connection but... be sure there is no airport at Ceuta. There is a Helicopter platform.

http://www.aena-aeropuertos.es/csee/Satellite/Helipuerto-Ceuta/en/Page/1075113413724/

The official page of AENA, the public entreprise which manage airports is this: www.aena.es and in the list of airports you will find the site of helicopters for Ceuta.





> That means Ceuta ferrys use the moroccan territory. Not cool. :|



No need... remember that there are 6 km of "international water" in the narrowest point... and Algeciras is located in the east of that point.

Even it is possible to go from Tanger to Gibraltar without passing Spanish waters.


Talking about Gibraltar... you can take a look to any cruises entreprise. Should it cross the cruise there, they will stop in 99% at Gibraltar.
Why?. Taxes. There are too many harbours where they can stop and many interesting places to visit in 100 km east-west, even in Spain or Morocco... but they stop at Gibraltar, and all visits are within that area.
Why?... the cost for a ferry that stops there is much, much cheaper than at Algeciras, Cadiz, Tanger, etc... and... they use the stop to carry food and other goods for the trip. Buying them at Gibraltar makes almost tax free.
Inside Gibraltar the border is a chaos and they will never prepare a journey outside the site. So you just visit that corner.

You can have a look to any cruises company. Any trip from, for example, Genoa or Barcelona to Canary Islands or the French Atlantic (or Dover, Amsterdam, etc...) will have a stop at Barcelona or Valencia, maybe near Almeria or Malaga and later... always Gibraltar because this reason. 
After there it is used to go to Casablanca or Lisbon depending of destination. This is why there are very nice sites in the Atlantic coast at Morocco, Portugal and Spain where they will never stop...


----------



## tbh444

The border town of Santana do Livramento is now on google streetview I notice, think this place might have been mentioned on here before - there certainly seem to be no restrictions:

http://g.co/maps/nqafw


----------



## DanielFigFoz

The controls are at the exits of the town


----------



## Corvinus

Mária Valéria Bridge between Esztergom and Párkány (Stúrovo) over the Danube river.
Bridge is named after Princess Marie Valerie of Austria-Hungary).










Photo taken from Esztergom in 2010 (taken by me, looks almost the same as the photo in Wikipedia).
Originally constructed in 1895, the bridge has been partially destroyed in the course of the retreat of German troops in 1944. The repaired bridge has been opened for traffic in 2001.


----------



## Nordic20T

---


----------



## CasaMor

*Morocco/Spain*


----------



## Eulanthe

Hi all,

Just a quick question - 

Can someone tell me about the PL/DE border before 2004? I'm specifically thinking about three different border crossings at - 

Kostrzyn
Ahlbeck
Frankfurt (Oder)

Specifically, my question is - for people travelling on foot, were there specific Customs controls at these points? For instance - in FFO, there's the old buildings that you had to pass through if you were walking. At this point, were there systematic Customs controls, like as found at the Medyka border crossing?

(for anyone unfamiliar with Medyka - you pass through the Customs control, where your passport is scanned and baggage checked, before proceeding to the passport control which is distinctly separate.)

I cannot find an answer to this question - and of course, I have no way to access the buildings in Frankfurt to find out if there was a specific designated place for such controls.


----------



## 122347




----------



## alserrod

Have dissapeared there border cabins?


----------



## CasaMor

^^ I've already crossed a border between Spain and Portugal to go to Tavira and Faro. It was awsome.


----------



## 122347

alserrod said:


> Have dissapeared there border cabins?


They didn't disappeared, but they aren't used now. I think most are abandoned unfortunally.



CasaMor said:


> ^^ I've already crossed a border between Spain and Portugal to go to Tavira and Faro. It was awsome.


Did you cross it in Ayamonte/Vila Real Santo António?


----------



## alserrod

CasaMor said:


> *Morocco/Spain*




In this pic we can find the explanation about the limits in the strait:

south to north: 
4 km territory of Morocco
3 km lane to Mediterranean (where the ship in the photo appears)
3 km lane to Atlantic
4 km territory of Spain.

Even if international agreements gives 22,2 km (12 sea miles) or at least "until half way" as far as this strait is a natural pass, the borders are limited.

Of course, in the case of Ceuta and Gibraltar, the same situation...

There are no international waters between Gibraltar and Algeciras as well as it is a bay, not a natural pass. So then, territorial waters until midway. UK in the right, Spain in the left.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Yeah, its a shame, some of them are beautiful buildings, like in Costa's first photo


----------



## CasaMor

costa said:


> Did you cross it in Ayamonte/Vila Real Santo António?


Yes. Malaga - Sevilla - Tavira - Faro.


----------



## 122347

^

This is the other coastline border, in the north, between Caminha/A Guarda. You can cross it by ferry.









photo: DurKen

PS: The picture was taken from the Galician side and the town we can see is Caminha.


----------



## Nikkodemo

Awesome pics of Spain/Morocco!


----------



## zsimi80

*Austria-Hungary*









































Source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/55557744


----------



## Djurizmo

Is this A/HU new road, or it existed before Schengen era? If there was a road, was there a border crossing?


----------



## zsimi80

I think this is a new road.


----------



## Durin

It says 1922 on the border marker. Wouldn't it have been placed there, next to the road, when the border was officially established - presumaby in 1922?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Considering the road has a 7.5 tonne weight limit, I think it's possible that this road dead-ended at either side of the border before 1990.


----------



## Nordic20T

According to Wikipedia (in hungarian), the border was opened in 2004 for traffic.


----------



## alserrod

In small roads between France and Spain you can notice that lines appear on yellow at France and white at Spain.

Have a look at Irun/Hendaye.


----------



## Verso

Nordic20T said:


> This was before Liechtenstein had joined the Schengen area.


Liechtenstein hasn't joined the Schengen Area yet. It plans to join it later this year.


----------



## Nordic20T

Verso said:


> Liechtenstein hasn't joined the Schengen Area yet. It plans to join it later this year.


Sorry, I mean Switzerland of course. 

Correct is: I took the pic, before *Switzerland* joined Schengen. For this reason, there still were passport checks back then.


----------



## Verso

^^ As you wrote, that's the Austria-Liechtenstein border, not the Swiss border, so checks are still performed.


----------



## Nordic20T

Verso said:


> ^^ As you wrote, that's the Austria-Liechtenstein border, not the Swiss border, *so checks are still performed.*


Yes, you're right, but since Switzerland joined, they just wave and let you pass. Before, I had always to show my ID.


----------



## Verso

^ That's quite possible, since you can avoid the A-FL border through Switzerland anyway.


----------



## ed110220

The South African Nakop border post, on the border with Namibia (the Namibian side is called Ariamsvlei):-



















Photos by Sakkie, Panoramio.


----------



## Corvinus

Nordic20T said:


> Yes, you're right, but since Switzerland joined, they just wave and let you pass. Before, I had always to show my ID.


I was not sure what to respond here since Wikipedia says FL would be expected to "join Schengen by the end of 2011". That's around now ...

At the Liechteinsteinian side of the border, there was a small sign stating "Bitte Pass für A-Zoll bereithalten". That was in April ...


----------



## Christophorus

Since Liechtenstein and Switzerland have a customs union since 1923 and both aren´t part of the EU there still are custom controls. 

I dont have any further information about Liechtenstein entering Schengen, but since it is impossible to enter Liechtenstein from a non-Schengen country and regarding the small size of Liechtenstein that could not be a severe problem...

Btw. the border between Liechtenstein and Switzerland is under video surveillance.


----------



## CasaMor

*Morocco/ Algeria* (the algerian side)


----------



## alserrod

Two questions?

Which is last language on pannel?

How many border passes are opened today?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Vielen dank für ihren besuch = German.


----------



## alserrod

alserrod said:


> off-topic... Ceuta and Melilla have football teams in the four range at Spain. One plays against teams from Western Andalucia and the other with teams from Eastern Andalucia.
> 
> In the Cup they try to make that the first rounds will be between the "minor teams", only one match (not in each stadium) and the winner goes to the following round.
> 
> Because minimizing costs, the first rounds are between teams in the same "area". They can be strongest or not so much, but the same "area" and journeys are cheaper.
> 
> Last year the draw made a Ceuta-Melilla in the Cup. I think it is the first official match they made in 15 years at least (or more).
> 
> I really do not know how the team of Melilla went to Ceuta. They could go by road crossing Morocco or going by plane and Helicopter via Malaga (for them are really cheap those travels).
> 
> It was Ceuta who won and passed to the following round. In that round there are two matches in each stadium and there are no "areas". It is a "entirely" draw and you can play against any team, doesn't matter the category, location, etc...
> 
> The draw signaled a Ceuta - FC Barcelona in the cup!!!



After asking, I correct myself because a mistake in the information.

These two teams plays every year because they are in the third division (Segunda B) which takes all teams in the south (there are four zones, 20 teams each one, for all the country).
Both, Ceuta and Melilla, play there and play between them every year as I said.

But as I read... it was the first time... in the Cup (not in the League).

I asked how to go and they said me that the faster way is a plane to Malaga, a bus to Algeciras and a ferry.

No helicopter from Malaga because there are only three daily and, even if discount, they are expensive (and maybe not enough for all the team).

And no direct road via Morocco because roads in the western Melilla are not good to go faster. Journey can be very long.


In fact... the faster trip will be a Melilla-Tanger (and later by bus) flight but they will need to prepare a charter flight and these teams do not have budget.

Teams on upper division (Segunda division where you can find some good teams which had last year a bad time and they are there...) do not use plane too much. Usually only for islands (Canary and Balearic) and very long journeys.

In the case of those teams, they have a 50% discount on planes because citizens of those cities.



And... as I said, in the first match this year, the team from Huelva had to go to La Coruña. There was strike and finnaly they played. They had no tickets (end of august, impossible to buy) and they travel by bus.
I think 85% of journey was inside Portugal.


----------



## CasaMor

alserrod said:


> Two questions?
> 
> Which is last language on pannel?
> 
> *How many border passes are opened today?*


0


----------



## italystf

CasaMor said:


> *Morocco/ Algeria* (the algerian side)


Is this an old pic?


----------



## CasaMor

^^ I have no idea but the border is still closed.


----------



## alserrod

Are plans to have border opened there?


----------



## alserrod

A little off-topic about football. 
In my last posts I have talked about how a long journey for a Spanish team is 85% inside Portugal and about the matches between the teams of Ceuta and Melilla where because a faster and cheaper travel.

Sport sometimes have opened borders, or have made to see them from a different point of view.

A lot of people maybe will remember the match in the football world cup between Western Germany and Eastern Germany at Hamburg (1974).

More recent are USA-Iran in 1998, for instance...


I wanted to talk about one more...
I think (have to check) that for clasifying to World Cup in 1966, Spain and Yugoslavia had to play between them.

Problem?. NO kind of relations between them. There were no relationship, no possibility (and no matter since then) that a citizen of Yugoslavia went to Spain and upside down.

But... they had to play two matched, one at Belgrade, other at Madrid.

How?. How to get the documentation?. What to do in case of problems?.
It was a problem that FIFA didn't take at all (it is your own bussiness if you have a problem with a different country but if you have to play... should you play, ok, should you do not play, you are out).
First option was to play both matched in a third country, but later, the French government offer a negotiation. They made visa valid for players in both countries and they offered their embassies at Madrid and Belgrade for any trouble. Should they have any question, they had to go to the French embassy.

It was the first time that a citizen of one country entered in the other in a lot of years...



Some years ago I visited Croatia and should want to repeat!!!!! Much easier now


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> A little off-topic about football.
> In my last posts I have talked about how a long journey for a Spanish team is 85% inside Portugal and about the matches between the teams of Ceuta and Melilla where because a faster and cheaper travel.
> 
> Sport sometimes have opened borders, or have made to see them from a different point of view.
> 
> A lot of people maybe will remember the match in the football world cup between Western Germany and Eastern Germany at Hamburg (1974).
> 
> More recent are USA-Iran in 1998, for instance...
> 
> 
> I wanted to talk about one more...
> I think (have to check) that for clasifying to World Cup in 1966, Spain and Yugoslavia had to play between them.
> 
> Problem?. NO kind of relations between them. There were no relationship, no possibility (and no matter since then) that a citizen of Yugoslavia went to Spain and upside down.
> 
> But... they had to play two matched, one at Belgrade, other at Madrid.
> 
> How?. How to get the documentation?. What to do in case of problems?.
> It was a problem that FIFA didn't take at all (it is your own bussiness if you have a problem with a different country but if you have to play... should you play, ok, should you do not play, you are out).
> First option was to play both matched in a third country, but later, the French government offer a negotiation. They made visa valid for players in both countries and they offered their embassies at Madrid and Belgrade for any trouble. Should they have any question, they had to go to the French embassy.
> 
> It was the first time that a citizen of one country entered in the other in a lot of years...
> 
> 
> 
> Some years ago I visited Croatia and should want to repeat!!!!! Much easier now


Why there were problems between Spain and Yugoslavia? Spain was part of the western block and Yugoslavia was neutral.


----------



## ed110220

italystf said:


> Why there were problems between Spain and Yugoslavia? Spain was part of the western block and Yugoslavia was neutral.


1946 was, I think, before the Yugo-Soviet split and so Yugoslavia would still have been in the Soviet block then.


----------



## alserrod

Spain was, until 1975, with a fascist government

As a little example, comunist party was allowed in 1977, just before the first free elections.

It was about 1971 when the relations with USSR began (nevertheless there was direct flight Madrid-Moscow). Both countries opened embassies and a lot of people from forbidden organizations liked to have a walk near the USSR embassy at Madrid... because it was the only place in all the country with that flag and the symbols!.
Later, in a few years, all eastern European countries opened embassies at Madrid and upside down


But several years before, having a single international football match managed by FIFA between Yugoslavia and Spain was near impossible... It was possible, but thanks to French diplomacy.


----------



## Slartibartfas

del


----------



## Oponopono

alserrod, it happened before to Moscow, no less and vice-versa.

In the European Nations' Cup of 1964 the Spanish National Team along with several supporters went to Moscow for a game with the Russian National Team. One interesting point here is that the Spanish were very, very noisy in Moscow but the Russian authorities were under strict orders to allow this kind of behaviour to the Spanish fans. The finals took place in Madrid on June 21st 1964 at Santiago Bernabeu Stadium. The Spanish selection won and Franco was present. His only question was if he would be required to salute the captain of the winning team and give him the trophy. When he was told that those weren't his duties but the UEFA (or FIFA? Something like that) president's he decided to go to the stadium and see the game.

During the qualification phase for the 1964 Cup, Spain received Romania in Madrid on November 1st 1962 and went to Bucarest on November 25th. 

The semi-finals saw Hungary playing with Spain in Madrid and Denmark with the Soviet Union in Barcelona, both on June 17th. The finals were, as mentioned above, between Spain and the Soviet Union on Bernabeu's Stadium on June 21st 1964.

On the previous European Nations' Cup of 1960, then, yes, Franco did not allow the Spanish Team to visit Moscow but shortly after in 1962 he was ok with the team going to Rumania along with several supporters.


----------



## Attus

If you com from Vienna to Budapest, on motorway A4 in Austria, before border station Nickelsdorf/Hegyeshalom there is a speed limit of 100 km/h several kilometers long, then 80 km/h some other kilometers long. 
Since there's no border control any more, no possibility for a jam, road quality does not force such limits, so I think this limitation has no sense and is against the Schengen treaty which disallows to create speed limits which are not based on traffic safety.


----------



## bogdymol

Attus said:


> If you com from Vienna to Budapest, on motorway A4 in Austria, before border station Nickelsdorf/Hegyeshalom there is a speed limit of 100 km/h several kilometers long, then 80 km/h some other kilometers long.
> Since there's no border control any more, no possibility for a jam, road quality does not force such limits, so I think this limitation has no sense and is against the Schengen treaty which disallows to create speed limits which are not based on traffic safety.


I don't see the speed limits you told us about. Indeed, there is a lower speed limit right at the border crossing, but that's because the check booths are still there and the motorway has some tight curves. After exiting that gas station there is a sign that says that all restrictions are lifted.





^^ Video recorded in February this year.


----------



## Nordic20T

@bogdymol
The speed limit Attus is talking about is only on the austrian side. Your video shows the opposite direction.


----------



## bogdymol

Nordic20T said:


> @bogdymol
> The speed limit Attus is talking about is only on the austrian side. Your video shows the opposite direction.


Oh... now I think I can remember. The last few km untill the border had a lower speed limit in Austria. Unfortunatelly I didn't record a video in that direction hno:


----------



## Nordic20T

bogdymol said:


> Oh... now I think I can remember. The last few km untill the border had a lower speed limit in Austria.


After the speed limit-sign is a left turn, then a bridge over the motorway and hidden behind the bridge is a speed camera. Typical for Austria...


----------



## Daviedoff

In the beginning of this video you'll see a border crossing France into Belgium nearby Longwy (French N52 - Belgian A28), speed limit = 10km/h.


----------



## alserrod

Oponopono said:


> alserrod, it happened before to Moscow, no less and vice-versa.
> 
> In the European Nations' Cup of 1964 the Spanish National Team along with several supporters went to Moscow for a game with the Russian National Team. One interesting point here is that the Spanish were very, very noisy in Moscow but the Russian authorities were under strict orders to allow this kind of behaviour to the Spanish fans. The finals took place in Madrid on June 21st 1964 at Santiago Bernabeu Stadium. The Spanish selection won and Franco was present. His only question was if he would be required to salute the captain of the winning team and give him the trophy.



off-topic

I do not know how I could forget that "detail". 
The second goal in the final was scored by Marcelino, a player from the team of my city.
Thanks to him, his team won two Cups and one Uefa Cup (apart of the European Cup for Spain) in just a few years.


----------



## Road_UK

Austria has lowered speedlimits on all motorway borders I know of. At Kufstein it's 100 km/h, but inbound it's cancelled the moment you cross the border - as only German signs display them. Germany bound there is a lowered speedlimit of 100 km/h after exit Kufstein Sud. Salzburg and Suben crossings both have 60 km/h limits for no apparent reason - with signs displayed on both sides of the border stating : Staatsgrenze in Austria and Bundesgrenze in Germany. Italian border at Brenner also has 60 km/h. 

Germany/France at Saarbruecken: 60 km/h.
Belgium/France: 10 km/h. 
All motorway border crossings between Netherlands and Belgium have no lowered speed limits. No lowered limits on most crossings between Netherlands and Germany, but Heerlen/Aachen imposes a 80 km/h limit. No lowered limits between Belgium/France at Adinkerke. Well, there is at the moment - but that's because of roadworks on the Belgian side (again after three years. That road didn't last long, great job, Belgians!)


----------



## erxgli

Which is the busiest border crossing in the world? and how many people cross the border each year??????^^^^

I'm just talking about legal inmigration


----------



## bogdymol

San Diego (USA) / Tijuana (Mexico)... or maybe German/Austrian border near Salzburg? Or some crossing between Netherlands and Belgium?


----------



## Stainless

^^^ I heard it was one of the B/NL ones. There are a lot of people who commute across it daily, along with a massive amount of freight and long distance travellers. The US ones look busy but it takes them a long time to process each car, leading to tailbacks.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

San Diego / Tijuana is probably the busiest one, though there may be busier ones between Shenzhen and Hong Kong, if you consider that a border crossing. 

The busiest border crossing in Europe is Walserberg, between Germany and Austria, near Salzburg. 75.000 vehicles cross it every day. The second busiest would be Hazeldonk between the Netherlands and Belgium. 60.000 vehicles cross it every day.

Of course there may be busier rail crossings, I have no idea about the Channel Tunnel, various air routes, or the Øresund Rail connection.


----------



## Stainless

^^^ Channel tunnel takes 17m passengers a year or 46,500 per day. Dover port takes 38,500 per day. So surprisingly not anywhere near Walserberg, which probably takes far more than 100,000 as each car could take several people. I guess if you totalled all the traffic on a whole border, somewhere in Europe would win, but controlled borders tend to direct people to a handful of crossings while Schengen crossings can be tiny and numerous.


----------



## RegioManio

ChrisZwolle said:


> San Diego / Tijuana is probably the busiest one, though there may be busier ones between Shenzhen and Hong Kong, if you consider that a border crossing.
> 
> The busiest border crossing in Europe is Walserberg, between Germany and Austria, near Salzburg. 75.000 vehicles cross it every day. The second busiest would be Hazeldonk between the Netherlands and Belgium. 60.000 vehicles cross it every day.
> 
> Of course there may be busier rail crossings, I have no idea about the Channel Tunnel, various air routes, or the Øresund Rail connection.


Right, the San Ysidro (San Diego suburb)/Tijuana border crossing is considered the busiest border crossing in the world, with almost 50 million people crossing this border per year, and almost 100,000 vehicles per day.


----------



## Nikolaj

ChrisZwolle said:


> San Diego / Tijuana is probably the busiest one, though there may be busier ones between Shenzhen and Hong Kong, if you consider that a border crossing.
> 
> The busiest border crossing in Europe is Walserberg, between Germany and Austria, near Salzburg. 75.000 vehicles cross it every day. The second busiest would be Hazeldonk between the Netherlands and Belgium. 60.000 vehicles cross it every day.
> 
> Of course there may be busier rail crossings, I have no idea about the Channel Tunnel, various air routes, or the Øresund Rail connection.


The Øresund Rail connection carried approx. 11 mio. passenger in 2010, or 30000 pax. a day. The road connection across Øresund carries approx. 20.000vehicles a day. That means Øresund is the busiets Danish border crossing. The busiest border crossing to Germany (A7/E45) is only used by 17.000 vehicles a day.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nikolaj said:


> The busiest border crossing to Germany (A7/E45) is only used by 17.000 vehicles a day.


True, but right next to it is another border crossing for the secondary road which carries 16.900 vehicles per day, bringing the total to some 34.500 vehicles per day at Flensburg / Padborg.


----------



## Coccodrillo

More detailed statistics for the Eurotunnel: http://www.eurotunnelgroup.com/uk/shareholders-and-investors/key-figures/2010-summary/

9.500.000 passengers on Eurostar trains, 2.200.000 cars, 1.100.000 trucks and 55.000 buses on shuttle trains in 2010.


----------



## alserrod

I agree... it is not obviously a border... but this morning, having a walk in my city I noticed these two streets are together...

http://maps.google.es/?ll=41.632724...=gTLAK0cic1w225D0_3Dggg&cbp=12,180.79,,0,6.94

It is a neighbourhoud built in the 1940s more or less and it wasn't the area where I have walks, but this week are major days in the city and there were some events there.


----------



## Attus

Rajka/Rušovce, c. 1950.


















Source: Fortepan.hu


----------



## Christophorus

Again something historic (maybe we should open a thread for this?), german Checkpoint in Beuthen (polish Bytom), Upper Silesia towards Poland approximately 1930, picture taken from Wikipedia:


----------



## alserrod

Are policemen on the right over rails?


----------



## RipleyLV

Attus said:


> Rajka/Rušovce, c. 1950.


2011.


----------



## keokiracer

^^ Besides the truck traffic jam certainly not bad


----------



## alserrod

Only one corner in the world with a border between France and the Netherlands


----------



## alserrod

San Martin island (let me write in the original name) was discovered by Christopher Columbus in 1493 (or... someone in his ship), in his second trip to America (he made four), but he never landed there. He was not interested in this small islands. Furthermore he was following major islands and specially the continent (this is why except at Cuba, Rep Dominicana and Puerto Rico, in few islands Spanish is spoken, as well as inside the continent, in the majority of countries it is spoken).

French and Dutch were stablished there (and in between British sometimes...).
It was in 1838 (just a few years later the first American countries got independence) when final border was set.

It is 87 km2 and has 75.000 people between both countries.


----------



## Christophorus

alserrod said:


> Are policemen on the right over rails?


I guess yes, as railtracks are clearly visible. Since the whole Upper Silesia region was (and is) is a mining area (mostly coal) i suppose this was a track of a mine railway, the track seems to be a narrow gauge which was often used in Germany for such purposes. 

When Upper Silesia was devided between Germany and Poland in 1921/22 the border line in this area often passed in the middle of mining areas (to give the new born Poland access to resources), or cut off mines from the neighbouring cities. So i think this railtrack maybe such a line which become cut off because of the new border.


----------



## alserrod

alserrod said:


> San Martin island (let me write in the original name) was discovered by Christopher Columbus in 1493 (or... someone in his ship), in his second trip to America (he made four), but he never landed there. He was not interested in this small islands. Furthermore he was following major islands and specially the continent (this is why except at Cuba, Rep Dominicana and Puerto Rico, in few islands Spanish is spoken, as well as inside the continent, in the majority of countries it is spoken).
> 
> French and Dutch were stablished there (and in between British sometimes...).
> It was in 1838 (just a few years later the first American countries got independence) when final border was set.
> 
> It is 87 km2 and has 75.000 people between both countries.





one detail more... name of San Martín (St. Martin of whetever in any other language) comes from the day it was discovered: November 11th, 1493, the day of "St. Martin of Tours" 

(http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/Saints/bydate.aspx)


----------



## xrtn2

Brazil and ..... FRANCE


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Verso

xrtn2 said:


>


There're no motorways in France?

:troll:


----------



## CNGL

In that part of France (French Guiana, I used to believe that was independent!) there are no motorways. But I'm sure there are motorways in France , if not, what are those 500 km I clinched there?


----------



## Verso

If *French* Guiana is independent, then it's France that isn't.


----------



## Satyricon84

^^ :dunno:


----------



## italystf

Border between Italy and Free Territory of Trieste existed between 1947 and 1954. It was located on SS14 just after Monfalcone. Those border matched with the nowadays' border between provinces of Gorizia and Trieste. Yougoslav border was closed at all in this years.


----------



## hofburg

And one could hear machine gun every night near Gorizia :nuts:


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^?


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Ten day war?


----------



## pai nosso

*Timor Lorosae-Indonesian Border* (view from Timor Lorosae)









Border post at Batugade


*Timor Lorosae-Indonesian Border* (view from Indonesia)









Border post at Batugade


Both photos from wikipedia!!


----------



## alserrod

How many custom borders has Eastern Timor?

Nice pics


----------



## Tepes

Indonesia is an archipelago country, but I can still count 3 land borders with other countries.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Are there actually border crossings between Indonesia and Papua New Guinea?


----------



## Satyricon84

According to this map, the are three streets which go from Indonesia to East Timor


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> Are there actually border crossings between Indonesia and Papua New Guinea?


There's a border crossing on the northern coast, but the road doesn't lead to the rest of the countries. Pics are already in this thread somewhere.


----------



## hofburg

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^?


few years after 1947 there was iron courtain.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^I know that, but machine guns? Were border guards shooting people trying to get out?


----------



## italystf

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^I know that, but machine guns? Were border guards shooting people trying to get out?


Italian - Yugoslavian relations were very tense at those time because, Yugoslavia won the war and occuped Italian lands. Also the city of Trieste was occupied for around a month in 1945 and thousands of his inhabitants were deported and killed. 300k Italians had to abandon their towns that became part of YU other aroud 50k who remained were deported, tortured and killed by comunists from 1945 to 1947. The border remained close until around 1960. And yes, you could be shoted or at least arrested if you tried to cross illegally the border during titoist era. Later, relationshps between two countries became normal because new borders were accepted and Yugoslavia decided to remain neutral and not join the Warsaw pact.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Italian - Yugoslavian relations were very tense at those time because, Yugoslavia won the war and occuped *Italian* lands.


Inhabited by Slovenes.



italystf said:


> Also the city of Trieste was occupied for around a month in 1945 and thousands of his inhabitants were deported and killed. 300k Italians had to abandon their towns that became part of YU other aroud 50k who remained were deported, tortured and killed by comunists from 1945 to 1947.


All this happened because of Italian fascist crimes in WW2. Not that I defend it, but it would be fair to at least mention them.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Inhabited by Slovenes.


Depends were. The Istrian coast was inhabitated mostly by Italians, the interior mostly by Slovenes and Croats.



Verso said:


> All this happened because of Italian fascist crimes in WW2. Not that I defend it, but it would be fair to at least mention them.


Off course, war was horrible in every side. And I think everybody know about nazifascist crimes and atrocities.
Fascism also highly penalized linguistic minorances on Italian soil well before the war. Teaching Slovenian in that area, German in Alto Adige\Sudtirol and French in Aoste Valley was forbidden since 1920s.
The Balkan Hotel, the centre of Slovenian culture in Trieste, was destroyed with fire by fascists in 1920.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> The Balkan Hotel, the centre of Slovenian culture in Trieste, was destroyed with fire by fascists in 1920.


Interesting name.  We usually call it _Narodni dom_ (National Hall).


----------



## mmmartin

italystf said:


> Depends were. The Istrian coast was inhabitated mostly by Italians, the interior mostly by Slovenes and Croats.


Not again that subject. 

Istrian coast was part of the Free Territory of Triest. The rest of Slovenia that Yugoslav army *liberated* after WW2 had practicaly no Italian inhabitants. In that area of Slovene litoral (excluding coastal Istria) lived in 1910 aproximatly 200.000 Slovenians and only some *200* Italians. Now, who was the occupier and who the liberator?!


----------



## Verso

^^ Austria-Hungary lost WW1 and Slovenes were punished (Austrians and Hungarians as well though) even though they defeated Italy.


----------



## Satyricon84

^^ to lose a battle doesn't mean to lose the war. Austria signed the armistice when they saw they couldn't fight anymore, otherwise they would have lost much more territory than actually did.


----------



## Verso

Vršič Pass in WW1. 









http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1970-073-25,_Isonzo-Schlacht,_Trainkolonne_am_Moistroka-Pass.jpg&filetimestamp=20081212220148


----------



## hofburg

wow. so much traffic. poor horses. 

on WWI related topic: Italy wasn't forced to enter the war, neither attacked. Italy took advantage of Austria being in a war and attacked it only to get some new territory. that's sad.


----------



## g.spinoza

hofburg said:


> wow. so much traffic. poor horses.
> 
> on WWI related topic: Italy wasn't forced to enter the war, neither attacked. Italy took advantage of Austria being in a war and attacked it only to get some new territory. that's sad.


It was a war. That is sad, not its motivations.


----------



## mmmartin

Italy's motivations were sad aswell. Very sad!


----------



## Surel

hofburg said:


> wow. so much traffic. poor horses.
> 
> on WWI related topic: Italy wasn't forced to enter the war, neither attacked. Italy took advantage of Austria being in a war and attacked it only to get some new territory. that's sad.


Hah, and what about the territory austria took then before from Italy, etc...

Wars are terrible and serve only small group of people. I hope we might not live to see another such coming.


----------



## Satyricon84

Surel said:


> Hah, and what about the territory austria took then before from Italy, etc...


kay:


----------



## friedrichstrasse

Which ones? :?
The Kingdom of Italy had already reached the borders of the former Italian states in 1866...


----------



## Satyricon84

^^ Kingdom of Lombardy–Venetia maybe?


----------



## friedrichstrasse

Lombardy went to Italy in 1859, Venetia in 1866...


----------



## Satyricon84

And before those years?...


----------



## friedrichstrasse

Italy didn't exist as State.


----------



## Satyricon84

But existed the territories which Austria got and didn't belong.....


----------



## friedrichstrasse

False.


----------



## Satyricon84

why?


----------



## friedrichstrasse

All the austrian territories belonged to Austria...

Anyway, Austria was at that time a multi-national empire, so it had Italian-speaking territories, as well as German-, Hungarian-, Czechian-, Slovakian-, Slovenian-, Romanian-, Serbian- and Croatian-.


----------



## Satyricon84

Even the Tuscany after invasion of 1848 belonged to Austria? If you think these territories belonged to Austria, actually you are saying Italy didn't have any right to exist, cause Italian Independence Wars were against Austria...


----------



## g.spinoza

mmmartin said:


> Italy's motivations were sad aswell. Very sad!


There were a lot of Italian speaking people in Austria, it was a liberation war, and the motivation were no different, and no worse, than the motivation of other countries.


----------



## g.spinoza

friedrichstrasse said:


> All the austrian territories belonged to Austria...
> 
> Anyway, Austria was at that time a multi-national empire, so it had Italian-speaking territories, as well as German-, Hungarian-, Czechian-, Slovakian-, Slovenian-, Romanian-, Serbian- and Croatian-.


Yes, and fortunately they "belong" no more to Austria but were free to choose their own country.


----------



## friedrichstrasse

g.spinoza said:


> There were a lot of Italian speaking people in Austria, it was a liberation war, and the motivation were no different, and no worse, than the motivation of other countries.


Not really, other countries (Serbia, Romania) were enemies to Austria.

Italy was _allied_ to Austria since the day before the war... hno:



g.spinoza said:


> Yes, and fortunately they "belong" no more to Austria but were free to choose their own country.


They weren't free to choose anything. Italy won the war and got some territories with an Italian majority (Trentino, souther Gorizia county, western Istria) and some territories with German or Slovenian majority (southern Tyrol, eastern Istria, northern Gorizia county, Kras/Carso, Krain/Carniola).


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## g.spinoza

friedrichstrasse said:


> Not really, other countries (Serbia, Romania) were enemies to Austria.
> 
> Italy was _allied_ to Austria since the day before the war... hno:


Austria violated the 1882 treaty by annexing Bosnia Hercegovina, so the treaty was null.



> They weren't free to choose anything. Italy won the war and got some territories with an Italian majority (Trentino, souther Gorizia county, western Istria) and some territories with German or Slovenian majority (southern Tyrol, eastern Istria, northern Gorizia county, Kras/Carso, Krain/Carniola).


And lost some other territories with an Italian majority, like villages in the French Alps and western Istria. So?


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## Satyricon84

Verso said:


> Let's end this, guys. We're in EU and Schengen now.


Oh...with things happening in these times, I think still for few time...


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## friedrichstrasse

Border between the italian city of Gorizia and the slovenian Nova Gorica, founded after 1947 in the eastern suburbs.

The two cities are the administrative centres of the two parts of former Gorizia county, which was divided between Italy and Yugoslavia following more or less the ethnician borders.




Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Verso

^^ Doesn't look like a city on that pic. 



Chilio said:


> New small (touristic) border crossing of local importance between Greece and Bulgaria in the Rhodopes Mountains, near the Bulgarian town Zlatograd:


Cute!


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## redbaron_012

All our roads lead to this.........?


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Satyricon84

Georgia/Abkhazia border


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ That guy is carrying a bag of supermarket chain Boni. It's a small supermarket chain in the Netherlands only with only 36 stores. I wonder how a bag like that ended up in Georgia.


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## Satyricon84

Khundjerab Pass (Pakistan/China border)


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## piotr71

In given example, on both sides of border (NL-B) 'Brussels Way' is named in the same language, however it is spelled differently in Belgium and The Netherlands. What made a difference?


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## Penn's Woods

^^We have plenty of native speakers of Dutch here who can answer the language question.

What I want to know is, where is Belgium north of the Netherlands? Other than Baarle, of course.


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## ChrisZwolle

That is near Maastricht. "Brusselsweg" is not considered regular Netherlands. Brusselweg or Brusselseweg would be possible (though the first is probably non-existent as well). I think it's an error of the mapping provider.


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## piotr71

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^We have plenty of native speakers of Dutch here who can answer the language question.
> 
> What I want to know is, where is Belgium north of the Netherlands? Other than Baarle, of course.


Near Maastricht as Chris said:









Check the shape of borderline West of Maastricht too. It goes really...interestingly


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## ChrisZwolle

The border follows older agricultural land borders. The canal was probably digged later than the border was established. Maastricht later on consumed more agricultural land and moved to the border.


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## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> That is near Maastricht. "Brusselsweg" is not considered regular Netherlands. Brusselweg or Brusselseweg would be possible (though the first is probably non-existent as well). I think it's an error of the mapping provider.


That's what I thought. Although I'd have guessed "Brusselseweg" would be spelled "Brusselse weg."

If a foreigner - but a language geek - can add a bit of explanation to another foreigner (that would be Piotr), "Brusselse" is the adjective for "Brussel." In English, cities don't have adjectives like that (usually), but in French, for example, "Brusselseweg" would translate to "Route bruxelloise" or "Chemin bruxellois," "Bruxellois(e)" being the adjective for "Bruxelles." Going out on a long limb, "Brusselse" is to "Brussel" as "warszawski" is to "Warszawa."

"Brusselweg," on the other hand, is just the name of the city with "weg" tacked on. "Brussels Road" in English, "route (or chemin) de Bruxelles" in French (which would be much more usual than "route bruxelloise"; I just did that to show what I meant by adjective for a city).


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## ChrisZwolle

Penn's Woods said:


> That's what I thought. Although I'd have guessed "Brusselseweg" would be spelled "Brusselse weg."


No, Dutch (and German and Danish for instance), do not break up words like they do in English. For instance, you would say George Washington Bridge, in the Netherlands that would've been written George Washington-brug or George Washington-brücke in German or George Washington-broen in Danish. Dutch names would even go without the "-" (Kanaalbrug = Canal Bridge)


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## alserrod

About the border Pakistan/China... Is there a signal about distance to Shanghai or Beijing?

Should it be... it could be the far away city pointed on road by an official signal!


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## piotr71

Penn's Woods said:


> (..)Going out on a long limb, "Brusselse" is to "Brussel" as "warszawski" is to "Warszawa."(..)


Thanks for that Penn's Woods


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## mgk920

redbaron_012 said:


> All our roads lead to this.........?
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us


I haven't seen images of it, but isn't there a sign on the main exit roadway of at least one of your major airports that says "DRIVE ON THE LEFT IN AUSTRALIA"?

:nuts:

Mike


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## DanielFigFoz

Penn's Woods said:


> That's what I thought. Although I'd have guessed "Brusselseweg" would be spelled "Brusselse weg."
> 
> If a foreigner - but a language geek - can add a bit of explanation to another foreigner (that would be Piotr), "Brusselse" is the adjective for "Brussel." In English, cities don't have adjectives like that (usually), but in French, for example, "Brusselseweg" would translate to "Route bruxelloise" or "Chemin bruxellois," "Bruxellois(e)" being the adjective for "Bruxelles." Going out on a long limb, "Brusselse" is to "Brussel" as "warszawski" is to "Warszawa."
> 
> "Brusselweg," on the other hand, is just the name of the city with "weg" tacked on. "Brussels Road" in English, "route (or chemin) de Bruxelles" in French (which would be much more usual than "route bruxelloise"; I just did that to show what I meant by adjective for a city).


It would be very rare to have a New Yorker Street or something but not impossible, google maps tells me that there is a Londoner Avenue in Boise.

A famous motorway in the UK is the Mancunian Way, googlemaps also tells me that there is a Mancunian Road in Ashton-under-Lyne


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## Verso

mgk920 said:


> I haven't seen images of it, but isn't there a sign on the main exit roadway of at least one of your major airports that says "DRIVE ON THE LEFT IN AUSTRALIA"?


There's such a sign after every rest area on the Great Ocean Road (because of many foreign tourists):









http://blog.travelpod.com/travel-photo/jmv146/3/1220686620/drive-on-the-left.jpg/tpod.html

Speaking of which, I was on the Great Ocean Road precisely 1 year ago. :cheers:


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## Penn's Woods

DanielFigFoz said:


> It would be very rare to have a New Yorker Street or something but not impossible, google maps tells me that there is a Londoner Avenue in Boise.
> 
> A famous motorway in the UK is the Mancunian Way, googlemaps also tells me that there is a Mancunian Road in Ashton-under-Lyne


I'd be willing to bet that that Londoner Avenue was named after someone called Londoner.

On the other hand, Brits say things like "Californian wines" where an American would say "California wines." We don't use "Californian" as an adjective, just as a noun meaning "person from California."


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## DanielFigFoz

Penn's Woods said:


> I'd be willing to bet that that Londoner Avenue was named after someone called Londoner.
> 
> On the other hand, Brits say things like "*Californian wine*s" where an American would say "California wines." We don't use "Californian" as an adjective, just as a noun meaning "person from California."


Does that make grammatical scene? I guess it does, I've never heard that before though


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## Penn's Woods

http://www.discovercaliforniawine.com/learn/about


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## piotr71

*Those were the days...*
































































http://www.berlin-brigade.de/us-ins/us-ein6.html


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## Chilio

The question about Belgium and Netherlands and south/north reminded me of the situation of the new Danube bridge at Vidin-Calafat between Bulgaria and Romania, which is due to open at the end of next year. It's south end is on Romanian soil and it's north end - on Bulgarian soil. So it's the only border crossing where Romania is to the south of Bulgaria  Except maybe the ferryboat which now serves the connection Vidin-Calafat.


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## Kenien

ChrisZwolle said:


> The border follows older agricultural land borders. The canal was probably digged later than the border was established. Maastricht later on consumed more agricultural land and moved to the border.


Not true, the border is the range of the canons from the defense wall of Maastricht.


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## Ingenioren

New Luxembourgish road crossing briefly into France at Belval:


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## Verso

^^ It goes from Luxembourg to France and back into Luxembourg? So it's like the Slovenian (ex-Yugoslav) road through Italy?


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## italystf

German - Polish border on Usedom island in the Baltic sea before Poland's accession to Schengen.









Now there aren't borders anymore but there are still some problems during summer because naturism is legal only in the German side but not everybody know it.:lol:


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## italystf

It seems that the North-South Korea border isn't totally close
http://www.hyundai-asan.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaesong_Industrial_Region


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## Corvinus

Motorway border, Rheinfelden (CH) -> Rheinfelden (D)










First German overhead sign


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## Nima-Farid

Iran Turkey Border
Of course now we can travel without visa
































The first distance sign on E-80


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## Corvinus

What is written on the three-row sign visible in the center of the first and third pic?
Why are so many Turks crossing into Iran (pic 3 - only TR plates visible..)?


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## Nima-Farid

it says pasport control passengers exit.


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## brisavoine

The strictest and most stringent international border still remaining in Europe: the border between the City of Paris and the barbarian lands. Even Schengen could not remove it.









(picture by Minato Ku)


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## italystf

brisavoine said:


> The strictest and most stringent international border still remaining in Europe: the border between the City of Paris and the *barbarian lands*. Even Schengen could not remove it.


Is it one of the so called banlieues, poor boroughts inhabitated mostly by North African with high crime levels and frequent uprisings?


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## brisavoine

You've watched too much TV. :lol:

Even in the suburbs with the highest percentages of immigrants, there aren't "frequent uprisings". And the crime levels would seem very mild compared to large US cities.

Anyway, the municipality just across the border in this picture is not one with particularily many immigrants. In 2008 only 13.1% of the population there were immigrants. In comparison, in the City of Paris there were 20.2% of immigrants in 2008.

This municipality also contains one of the business districts of Paris, with the headquarters of France24 and several other media companies. There are 47,048 jobs located in this municipality (as of 2008), which is almost one-third the number of jobs at La Défense.

As for poverty, this municipality is not poor by any standard. The fiscal income of the households in this municipality is higher than in the City of Paris.


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## Penn's Woods

^^American crime rates have been dropping dramatically for the last 20 years. Meanwhile, cities like Saint-Denis think an appropriate way to protest the death penalty in the United States (as if that's their business) is to name streets after convicted murderers of police officers: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=48.917164,2.363369&spn=0.001026,0.002063&t=m&z=19&vpsrc=6 But if an American criticizes anything in France, it's "french bashing" - usually (mis-)spelled like that.

If there's one place in France I'll *never* set foot, it's there. And the whole country can spend less time congratulating itself for its moral superiority to a country that lost thousands of lives for it.

'k?


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## Satyricon84

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^American crime rates have been dropping dramatically for the last 20 years. Meanwhile, cities like Saint-Denis think an appropriate way to protest the death penalty in the United States (as if that's their business) is to name streets after convicted murderers of police officers: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=48.917164,2.363369&spn=0.001026,0.002063&t=m&z=19&vpsrc=6 But if an American criticizes anything in France, it's "french bashing" - usually (mis-)spelled like that.
> 
> If there's one place in France I'll *never* set foot, it's there. And the whole country can spend less time congratulating itself for its moral superiority to a country that lost thousands of lives for it.


I agree 100% with you. Some parisian suburbs are worse than Camden, New Jersey (living in Philadelphia you should know what I mean). Even if apparently calm, the situation can degenerate very easily like happened in 2005...


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## italystf

brisavoine said:


> You've watched too much TV. :lol:
> 
> Even in the suburbs with the highest percentages of immigrants, there aren't "frequent uprisings". And the crime levels would seem very mild compared to large US cities.
> 
> Anyway, the municipality just across the border in this picture is not one with particularily many immigrants. In 2008 only 13.1% of the population there were immigrants. In comparison, in the City of Paris there were 20.2% of immigrants in 2008.
> 
> This municipality also contains one of the business districts of Paris, with the headquarters of France24 and several other media companies. There are 47,048 jobs located in this municipality (as of 2008), which is almost one-third the number of jobs at La Défense.
> 
> As for poverty, this municipality is not poor by any standard. The fiscal income of the households in this municipality is higher than in the City of Paris.


I know that Paris has 11 millions people and only 2 millions of them live in the proper municipality. So, off ourse not all suburbs are poor and dangerous. But since you wrote that it was a "strong border" I supposed that it was one of them.


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## Minato ku

Satyricon84 said:


> I agree 100% with you. Some parisian suburbs are worse than Camden, New Jersey (living in Philadelphia you should know what I mean). Even if apparently calm, the situation can degenerate very easily like happened in 2005...


Worse than Camden. :nuts:
The problem is not that you live in Philly but that you never set a foot in the parisian suburbs, you talk about.
Only one people died during the 2005 riot, while 34 people were killed in 2005 in Camden.
34 people killed in a tiny municipality of 77,000 inhabitants.
By comparaison, the number of murder AND attempted murder was only of 92 in Seine Saint Denis in 2009, a departement with 1.5 million inhabitants.


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## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> Or Osimo Street, a Slovenian road which cuts into Italian territory with no exits.


I wonder how many such roads there are in the world. I never hear about them.


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## hofburg

g.spinoza said:


> Or Osimo Street, a Slovenian road which *cuts* into Italian territory with no exits.


It litteraly does cut.  Slovenian part is from the right the the tree in the middle, then there's Italian one all covered by concrete, cleary visible. 


26112011290 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


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## alserrod

Verso said:


> I wonder how many such roads there are in the world. I never hear about them.




At Andorra there is "half" of them.

The little village of Os de Civis is in Spain and part of the municipality located southern Andorra.
Going there is possible only with a very good off-road car on summer, trekking (even mountaining), helicopter... or crossing the country of Andorra.

Entering Andorra is special. They require the same documentation than for any other country. This is... for a Spanish or French citizen (it has borders with both countries) it is enough with the ID card, no need the passport.
But... for a non EU citizen they apply the normal documentation for all non-EU countries.
There are not too many passport controls in the border. In fact one summer I crossed the border several times and never asked for passport but... coming back to Spain ALWAYS baggage control (Andorra is a full duty free country and you have to declare anything you buy).

But... should a citizen requires a Visa to enter Schengen territory, they need a Visa to exit it for entering Andorra. In fact, it is not Schengen territory. There are not too many cases... but the police at the border have the full list of documents that may require to any citizen.

There is a treaty with Spain for allowing any emergency vehicle for three kilometres in the main road CG-1 (there are four "main roads" in the country) and turning left to Os de Civis with no control in the border.

Only police or army vehicles are out of that treaty. Once that police had to arrive there... they made by helicopter.


The little road finish at Os de Civis. There is no signal about where the border is. This is... when Andorra finish and start Spain again, no flags, no indications about countries, etc...

You have to pay attention, for example, that if you ask for a bill in the restaurant, the phone number will put +34 XXXXX instead of +376 XXXX (yeah... calling from Os de Civis to an Andorran village located just some kilometres away is more expensive than calling to Finland because it is not part of EU), and the bill will include VAT (there is no VAT at Andorra)


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## g.spinoza

^^ The so-called Osimo street I was talking about is a bit different, though. It is a road built by Italians but managed by Slovenes, with a Slovenian designation, and where Italian police has no jurisdiction. It is indeed fully Slovenian, even if cuts into Italy:

http://maps.google.it/maps?q=45.981...&spn=0.047598,0.132093&num=1&vpsrc=0&t=m&z=14


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## italystf

hofburg said:


> It litteraly does cut.  Slovenian part is from the right the the tree in the middle, then there's Italian one all covered by concrete, cleary visible.
> 
> 
> 26112011290 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Is that pic taken from Via del Monte Santo - Solkan border crossing (the northernmost border crossing in Gorizia urban area)?


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## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ The so-called Osimo street I was talking about is a bit different, though. It is a road built but Italians but managed by Slovenes, with a Slovenian designation, and where Italian police has no jurisdiction. It is indeed fully Slovenian, even if cuts into Italy:
> 
> http://maps.google.it/maps?q=45.981...&spn=0.047598,0.132093&num=1&vpsrc=0&t=m&z=14


According to wikipedia that section is managed by Slovenia but have an Italian road number (NSA55).

Map:









Other googled pics:



























The fence dividing the road by the rest of Italy was like an international border.


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## Corvinus

Is the surface of the road Slovenian territory? If e.g. somebody commits a crime on the road, will the trial be in Slovenia?


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## g.spinoza

^^ I'm not so sure about this, but I think that the road remains Italian territory, with a sort of "extraterritorial" status. I'm trying to read the actual Osimo treaty, which established boundaries between Italy and Yugoslavia, but it's huge and written in legalese...


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## MattiG

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I'm not so sure about this, but I think that the road remains Italian territory, with a sort of "extraterritorial" status. I'm trying to read the actual Osimo treaty, which established boundaries between Italy and Yugoslavia, but it's huge and written in legalese...


What I have understood, the land is Italian territory, but the treaty authorizes the Yugoslavian police and military bodies to control the road. Slovenia has declared it recognizes the treaty be valid after the failure of Yugoslavia.

The original text of the Treaty of Osimo BTW is written in French...


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## seem

There were about 44 small bridges before WW2 connecting Hungarian and Slovak villages. Now some of them are being reconstructed. They just opened new bridge between Rároš (SK) and Rárospuszta (H), lack of infrastructure is probably one of the reason why these southern regions are so poor. 




Qwert said:


> Nie je to síce diaľnica, ale je to zaujímavý kúsok cesty. Nový hraničný most cez Ipeľ medzi obcami Rároš a Rárospuszta:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.railtrains.sk/modules/AMS/article.php?storyid=725


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## bogdymol

^^


> http://www.railtrains.sk/uploads/img4edb588ed14d7.jpg


MK & SR ? wtf?


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## ChrisZwolle

Magyar Köztársaság + Slovenská republika


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## GROBIN

^^

True it can be confusing for tourists. "HU/SK" (as they did on some parts on the border towns between Belgium and the Netherlands) or "H/SK" would've been more logical


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## Verso

italystf said:


> According to wikipedia that section is managed by Slovenia but have an Italian road number (NSA55).


But it has Slovenian signs and a Slovenian road number on the place (R2-402). Here are my pics of the road.


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## g.spinoza

^^ Verso, do you know whether this road continues to be mantained by Italy or Slovenia stepped in?


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## seem

GROBIN said:


> ^^
> 
> True it can be confusing for tourists. "HU/SK" (as they did on some parts on the border towns between Belgium and the Netherlands) or "H/SK" would've been more logical


In case of Slovakia it still makes sense: SR - Slovak Republic. Btw we usually use both SK and SR, SK stands for *S*lovens*k*o so it's less formal.


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## Nordic20T

del


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## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Verso, do you know whether this road continues to be mantained by Italy or Slovenia stepped in?


Sorry, I don't know that.


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## hofburg

italystf said:


> Is that pic taken from Via del Monte Santo - Solkan border crossing (the northernmost border crossing in Gorizia urban area)?


yes. I hope they will remove the fence once.


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## phiberoptik

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Verso, do you know whether this road continues to be mantained by Italy or Slovenia stepped in?


I think that's logical that Slovenia maintain this road because there is no direct connection to Italian road network


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## alserrod

Looking to Google Maps I notice that they have marked the South Sudan borders.


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## andy5

alserrod said:


> Maybe the national company for cellular phones at Andorra makes the biggest bussiness!!!. Phones inside the country are very cheap but outside are very expensive, as well as roaming.
> 
> You go there as a tourist. The country capital is only 10 km by road from Spain and 20 km from France. You notice your cellular phone is available for receiving and making calls and you can use... but you will pay tooooooooooooo many money to Mobiland, the national Andorran mobile company.





Stainless said:


> Odd situation. If I visited I would try and get a signal from a French or Spanish network so I could roam cheaply. Do many Andorrans own multiple mobiles for international calling?
> 
> There are a few odd situations with the UK phone network. For example the Channel Islands.
> 
> Jersey and Guernsey each have their own mobile and landline phone networks Guernsey includes Alderney Sark and Herm. They are part of the UK numbering plan and all international calls go through the UK. This means all landline calls there are at the national rate. They also run their own mobile networks. When calling between networks there is no problem as there is no difference in charge between mobile networks. But if I visit Jersey from the UK I am roaming, even though I am still in the same international calling code (+44). Same when they visit the UK. Roaming costs are high as they are outside the EU, just like Andorra so can charge what they like. Calling a Jersey mobile from the EU is probably capped as the call would go through the UK. I don't understand why they needed to have their own mobile networks to begin with, they could just remove the VAT on all calls made from the Channel islands if tax was the problem. Also the Isle of Man has the same issue.
> 
> Another anomaly is that you can call any number in Northern Ireland in 2 ways. From the UK +44 28 or from ROI +353 48.


Some extra things need saying about this.

First of all, Guernsey Jersey and Isle of Man are separate territories, so it's entirely natural that there might be separate phone companies there.

Although they are included in the UK +44 numbering system, they may be charged differently. UK landline providers such as British Telecom do not necessarily include calls to landlines there in inclusive bundles of minutes. 

As for mobiles, although there are regulatory rates for roaming in the EU, there isn't dictation of prices for calls from one's home country.

You're mistaken to suggest that there are no differences in calls between networks. Some UK networks include calls to the Channel Islands and Isle of Man in call bundles, and some do not; some charge as much as 50 pence a minute.

As for roaming, well, you need to discuss this with your own network, as they are setting roaming tariffs, and the old story that networks are only passing on what they are charged by the visited network is something of a myth.

If I visit Guernsey or Jersey or the Isle of Man using my main phone, I would be charged exactly the same roaming rate as visiting the EU.

And that same Eurotariff is extended by my network to other countries, so as well as the EU it also applies in Andorra, Croatia, Faroe Islands, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Iceland, Isle of Man, Jersey, Kosovo, Liechtenstein, Monaco, Montenegro, Norway, San Marino, Serbia, Switzerland, Vatican City.

Or apart from main networks there are a number of SIM cards which specialise in cheap roaming, not only in Europe, but on many countries across the world. Some have free incoming calls in up to nearly 100 countries, including even USA by also having a US mvno identity on the SIM. 

These cheap roaming SIMs are mvno arrangements, and as it happens some are based on networks in Isle of Man and Jersey, though others are or have been from Estonia Iceland Israel Liechtenstein Monaco and others (though the former Monaco numbered one was an arrangement with a network on Ghana).

So basically if your network charges you a lot for some roaming, that rapaciousness of tariffs is mainly down to your network.


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## alserrod

andy5 said:


> So basically if your network charges you a lot for some roaming, that rapaciousness of tariffs is mainly down to your network.




Of course!!!...

Until several years ago they had a fare for starting a call and later they had a price per minute but the first minute was payed fully (this is at least starting + 1 minute). 
It was mandatory to make a fare by seconds since the first minute (so a 30 seconds call will have only half minute, not the minimum fare). And all the companies made more expensive the starting calling fare.

UE made mandatory to have the same fares for all destinations in Europe (inside UE)... they made it, but they change fares to non-UE countries.

There are too many but most of them are not frequently visited. The most "surprising" are Switzerland (the biggest), and Andorra (small but with phisical border).

Networks can know if you are calling somewhere... and doesn't matter if it is close to your home. If they can make one fare, they will put.

Concurrence is studying those fares but nothing declared yet.


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## andy5

Well, as I say, my network charges roaming in those two countries and a dozen or so more at the Eurotariff. Check the roaming rates of all the networks in your country and you may find some variations, for example Vodafone's Passport (or equivalent name)


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## alserrod

Let me have a look but I think that Vodafone (for example, but Orange and Movistar too) will have different fares if calling Channel islands than to Great Britain.

They can know the destination... and they apply by computering the fares...


They had to make cheaper calling to eastern Europe if the country was inside UE so they made more expensive calls to western Europe if not UE (not only this company but all of them)


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## andy5

alserrod said:


> Let me have a look but I think that Vodafone (for example, but Orange and Movistar too) will have different fares if calling Channel islands than to Great Britain.
> 
> They can know the destination... and they apply by computering the fares...
> 
> 
> They had to make cheaper calling to eastern Europe if the country was inside UE so they made more expensive calls to western Europe if not UE (not only this company but all of them)


I already said that is true for some UK companies, and for example Vodafone UK charges 50 pence a minute, whereas I would either pay 10 pence or it would be included in my minutes if I added a monthly bundle. 

But you seem to be blurring together the two cases, making international calls from one's home country, compared with roaming there.

Some companies share your cynicism, and some do not.

In any case, aside from discussing such ethics, the main reason for my first post was to correct a couple of incorrect assumptions.


----------



## alserrod

I quote myself about the Gibraltar airport




alserrod said:


> A very curious point was to made airport as bi-national. Making a flight from Spain and having a terminal to La Linea de la concepcion (E) required no customs even in origin nor at Gibraltar.
> The airport (and the stadium) is located in the "neutral zone", the only territory required by Spanish authorities which considered that all located there should be shared. In fact they share only the airport (it is managed by UK) but they signed an important agreement with several points.



In this link you can find some interesting pics:


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=547755&page=4

In the first one... the harbour in the left is entirely Spain and can see the line of the customs.

Airport terminal is in the centre-right.

The "neutral zone" will arrive until the stadium in the left. Southern will be entirely UK.

In the second message there is a picture with more detail of the airport terminal and you can see the customs. It is taken south-north, from the UK side.

Later you have some pics about the new Gibraltar airport terminal and the flow to follow for a flight within Spain and no passport or custom control (flow that today will not apply because no companies are operating, the only one stopped some years ago).

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=547755&page=4


----------



## Corvinus

Border Rheinfelden (CH) -> Rheinfelden (D) reloaded:
Approaching it from the Swiss side

1.









2.









3.









4. German-style sign, but customs control is still ahead (there is a skew between Swiss and German custom booth positions, presumably each country wanted them on its own territory)


----------



## zsimi80

New sign at Hungarian border crossings: (Magyar Köztársaság: Republic of Hungary. Magyarország: Hungary)











Old sign:










*THEY screwed up the Coat of Arms on the new sign...*. :bash:



Source: http://index.hu/belfold/2011/12/15/ukrajnabol_mar_magyarorszagra_jovunk/


----------



## Corvinus

Nenning (D) -> Remich (L)

1. Approaching the bridge over the Mosella









2. Sign for the Mosella ...









3. ... Luxembourg ...









4. ... and Remich









Some 2kms further, gasoline stations (about 8-10 of them) are welcoming motorists from Germany, with some 25-30 ct/litre difference in prices


----------



## Markowice10

zsimi80 said:


> New sign at Hungarian border crossings: (Magyar Köztársaság: Republic of Hungary. Magyarország: Hungary)
> 
> [
> 
> Old sign:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ]


Hungary will be the kingdom?
^^
:lol:


----------



## GROBIN

zsimi80 said:


> New sign at Hungarian border crossings: (Magyar Köztársaság: Republic of Hungary. Magyarország: Hungary)
> 
> (...)
> 
> *THEY screwed up the Coat of Arms on the new sign...*. :bash:
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://index.hu/belfold/2011/12/15/ukrajnabol_mar_magyarorszagra_jovunk/


Why do you say that ? I don't see a big difference between both ...


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Red and white stripes on the left side are reversed.


----------



## Nordic20T

What was wrong with "Magyar Köztársaság"? The same as with "Ferihegy Airport" and "Moszkva Tér"? hno:


----------



## MattiG

Nordic20T said:


> What was wrong with "Magyar Köztársaság"? The same as with "Ferihegy Airport" and "Moszkva Tér"? hno:


Nothing wrong, I think, but it is not aligned with the common practice for those signs. Sweden shows "Sverige" not "Kongeriket Sverige" and Finland "Suomi/Finland" not "Suomen tasavalta/Republiken Finland", for instance.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I really don't think the average foreigner cares whether it's a federal state, kingdom, republic or whatever. The only country with a commun suffix is the Czech Republic. Czechia is often used in other languages though.


----------



## Palance

MattiG said:


> Nothing wrong, I think, but it is not aligned with the common practice for those signs. Sweden shows "Sverige" not "Kongeriket Sverige" and Finland "Suomi/Finland" not "Suomen tasavalta/Republiken Finland", for instance.


However, there are still signs with "Republik Österreich", "Bundesrepublik Deutschland", "Rzeczpospolita Polska".


----------



## Palance

Double post


----------



## x-type

Nordic20T said:


> What was wrong with "Magyar Köztársaság"? The same as with "Ferihegy Airport" and "Moszkva Tér"? hno:


it is again Széll Kálmán tér actually


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> I really don't think the average foreigner cares whether it's a federal state, kingdom, republic or whatever. The only country with a commun suffix is the Czech Republic. Czechia is often used in other languages though.




In Spain most of official documents (as an example ID card, passport, etc...) have only the indication of "Spain" but the driving licence card writes "Kingdom of Spain" (it is the official name of the country and the one considered by the UN).

But... it is required to have the full name in a document when ALL people (citizens and visitors) will understand the same with only one word?


PS. Maybe most of visitors may understand the translation of Spain in the original language but not the word of Kingdom and can cause confusions if writting everywhere.


----------



## Mr. America

Blaskovitz said:


> Guben/Gubin, Cieszyn/Těšín etc


And Goerlitz/Zgorzelec 

Some photos:

Poland - left, Germany - right:










View from German to Polish side:










...and from Polish to German:










Germany - left, Poland - right:


----------



## kreden

x-type said:


> true. but their backyard is in Croatian register :lol:


Yes but Croatian land register :lol:


----------



## Verso

phiberoptik said:


> That is croatian restaurant (owners are from croatia)


Hmm, "Kalin" is a Slovenian last name and according to this website, their food offer is "home-made Slovene dishes", not Croatian. Also, it says "gostilna" (Slovenian) at the entrance, not "gostionica" (Croatian):









http://sl-si.facebook.com/pages/Kalin/214462795243278



phiberoptik said:


> You need valid passport or ID to enter restaurant because strict Schengen enforcment.


Are you sure about that? It sounds absurd, to be honest.



phiberoptik said:


> Address is croatian


Their address is Obrežje 6, 8261 Jesenice na Dolenjskem, Slovenia.


----------



## phiberoptik

Verso said:


> Hmm, "Kalin" is a Slovenian last name and according to this website, their food offer is "home-made Slovene dishes", not Croatian. Also, it says "gostilna" (Slovenian) at the entrance, not "gostionica" (Croatian):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://sl-si.facebook.com/pages/Kalin/214462795243278
> 
> Are you sure about that? It sounds absurd, to be honest.
> 
> Their address is Obrežje 6, 8261 Jesenice na Dolenjskem, Slovenia.


Same restaurant is in Croatian business register so I thought it is Croatian.

Verso, here is one article about that restaurant (in Croatian, I hope you can understand it): http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4234380,00.html

And here you can see original address m))


----------



## Verso

^^ Obrežje 6, 10432 Bregana, Croatia? Obrežje is a Slovenian village, not Croatian. :lol:


----------



## GROBIN

Obrežje is mentioned to be in Slovenia according to Google Earth & so is the restaurant.

Maybe I'll be able to confirm it, but ... only this summer


----------



## obserwator-kraka

CZ/SK Bílá - Klokočov - 22/01/2012


----------



## alserrod

Are controls on Slovakia-Czeck rep. border?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

No they've been in the Schengen area for more than 4 years.


----------



## Attus

alserrod said:


> Are controls on Slovakia-Czeck rep. border?


Both nations are in Schengen area so there's free pass there.


----------



## obserwator-kraka

exactly, actually I was even surprised because I didnt see any police car on our way, which could do random checks, I also ddn't see any police cars on Polish-Czech border in Cieszyn and Slovak Polish border in Skalite/Zwardoń (the same day I mean)


----------



## Coccodrillo

alserrod said:


> Are controls on Slovakia-Czeck rep. border?


They were the same country until 20 years ago, did they establish border crossings when they broke up?


----------



## Attus

Coccodrillo said:


> They were the same country until 20 years ago, did they establish border crossings when they broke up?


Sure. The Kúty border station was one of the most strict ones west of Ukraine.


----------



## x-type

Attus said:


> Sure. The Kúty border station was one of the most strict ones east of Ukraine.


you mean west


----------



## Attus

^^Of course. Corrected, thanks.


----------



## Djurizmo

Was cz/sk border fenced all the way, during 90s?


----------



## Blaskovitz

Mr. America said:


> And Goerlitz/Zgorzelec
> 
> Some photos:
> 
> Poland - left, Germany - right:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View from German to Polish side:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...and from Polish to German:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Germany - left, Poland - right:



Like normal one city


----------



## obserwator-kraka

Djurizmo said:


> Was cz/sk border fenced all the way, during 90s?


no it was not really fenced I suppose


----------



## GROBIN

^^

Český Těšín / Cieszyn (CZ/PL) is also interesting and feels even more like one town. 3 bridges connecting both sides (soon probably 4 - a pedestrian bridge is to be built), on the Czech side everything written in both languages (on the Polish side only at the shops up to 50 meters from the border). 
But when you enter the town, for the first time, on the Polish side & enter the market square, you don't feel like the border is just 300m away. Anyway, I love this Czech/Polish town !

Frankfurt an der Oder / Słubice (D/PL) is also interesting & quite strange: 
A) the Polish town is smaller but feels like more alive (more people hanging around, etc.). 
B) In Frankfurt an der Oder, there's a strange contrast between 
B-1) - on the one hand - brand new houses on the Oder in front of Poland + the city center, which is close to the bridge & looks quite modern; & 
B-2) - on the other hand - lots of empty flats in buildings. Even in those near the brand new houses on the Oder !

Słubice has got quite a few shops with both languages and the only ARAL station left in Poland (all the others have been turned into BP's a couple of years ago), whereas in Frankfurt an der Oder, the only things written in both languages are roadsigns for pedestrians to find the interesting places of the German side.

Another border that feels like that: Mouscron (B)/ Wattrelos (F). I remember crossing there once & having the suprise that the houses looked similar but the roadsigns suddenly turned from capital letters into small letters on blue roadsigns 

&, of course, Hendaye (F)/Irún (E)


----------



## Coccodrillo

Are there, beside Český Těšín / Cieszyn and the one I cited, villages or cities across a border with the same or a similar name?


----------



## Alex_ZR

Sremska Rača (SRB) - Bosanska Rača (BIH)


----------



## italystf

Attus said:


> Kúty, mid 90s. We travelled in a group, by a coach. Czech custom officer came, counted us (43 people), counted the mineral waters in the pack box and said we had two much mineral waters, only one liter per capita (or something similar) is allowed and took two or three glasses. (Actually I think he took it for himself...).
> Not typically what I could call a "not bad" type of custom control


OMG! I can understand alchool, tobacco, electronics, etc... but mineral water:nuts:? I think you met a stupid and bored policemen that didn't find a better way to enjoy himself than show his power to annoy travellers or made the idea that border check were serious.


----------



## piotr71

It was really big fun to cross a border within countries behind the iron curtain.
Let's say Polish-Czechoslovakian in eighties. I remember it very well when Polish customs were just about to arrest my parents, because my sister (5 year old back then) carried cute, black-skin doll, bought in CSRS. It was not allowed to bring anything over certain quantity from there to Poland, even bloody toys. 

Well, Czechoslovakia apart from being well known as a tourist destination for Poles, had another, maybe more important advantage - their shops were supplied as shops should be. Poland - empty shelves. CSRS - you could get anything money could buy. Paradise! As long as you didn't care too much about waiting several hours on the Cesky Tesin - Cieszyn border and then didn't mind to be "interviewed" by both, Polish and Czechoslovak customs. Interviews sometimes ended up with a car completely unscrewed to the last bolt.
Those were the days


----------



## Palance

How were the other 'inner-iron-curtain' crossings those times? Unfortunately I have never crossed one of them, my most interesting border in that time was between East and West Germany. 

And my most interesting crossing in the last few years was UAE-Oman.


----------



## italystf

I've read on SSC about someone who had problems at the RO-MD border because he had some oregano in his suitcase and they though that was ganja or something.


----------



## messicano

Mexico-USA ferry

Diaz Ordaz,Mexico-Los Ebanos,USA


----------



## Fatfield

Palance said:


> How were the other 'inner-iron-curtain' crossings those times? Unfortunately I have never crossed one of them, my most interesting border in that time was between East and West Germany.
> 
> And my most interesting crossing in the last few years was UAE-Oman.


I once went by coach from Glasgow to Bucharest and back during the 80's to watch a football match. We had to get a transit visa for Hungary and a visitors visa for Romania. I can't remember where the crossing points were but I think the HU-RO crossing was near Arad or Oradea. Crossing from Austria to Hungary was fairly easy but crossing from Hungary to Romania was a nightmare.

Everyone on the coach had to get off at this border post (it was no bigger than a garden shed) and it must have been miles from the nearest village/town/city. It was desolate. There were armed soldiers/border guards everywhere. The coach was searched from top to bottom and we all got our bags searched as well as being 'patted down'. Once we got back on the road again it became apparent that the border guards had helped themselves to whatever took their fancy during the search. Iirc it took nealy 4 hours. No-one else crossed the border during that time either.

I've been to the US since 9/11 and the security still wasn't as stringent as getting into Romaina.


----------



## GROBIN

Palance said:


> How were the other 'inner-iron-curtain' crossings those times? Unfortunately I have never crossed one of them, my most interesting border in that time was between East and West Germany.
> 
> And my most interesting crossing in the last few years was UAE-Oman.


I will answer partly by writing you some experiences, although not only through the iron curtain.

1) D / DDR crossing Helmstedt/Marienburg 1988 to 1990 - this was the most guarded border. Some people trying to escape could end up in ... mines, & my parents have got once their car half unbolted (even the steering wheel). My father got angry enough to give orders to the DDR custom guy to put his car back together again, which he refused. Luckily, the superior of this guy told him to od so afterwards.
This border crossing went softer & softer during its last 2 years.
P.S.: There was always the same young & pretty DDR custom blonde woman who checked us  

2) ET/IL crossing in Taba/Eilat 1994 - First of all, the big contrast between the dirty asphalt in Egypt & the clean one in Israel. Second: they checked everything, which reminded me of nowadays' airport crossings. It took aroud 1h30 entering Israel, 30 minutes back to Egypt.

3) PL/UA crossing in Zosin / Ustyluh 2005. I spent 8 hours to enter Ukraine, 2 hours to go back to Poland. But I've already told this story on SSC.

4) PL/D crossing in Świecko / Frankfurt an der Oder 
4-1) 1990 - German customs checking EVERY French car entering from Poland ! Including ours 
4-2) 1999 - A Polish customs guy making complements to my non-Polish mother :lol:
4-3) 2006 - with a 3 month baby, I chose - instead of crossing in Słubice as I always did before Schenge - to cross in Świecko. Big mistake - an enormous traffic jam (like 1h00 waiting). The baby was crying for around 10 minutes, so I decided to go ahead. Then a German customs guy insulted me. I shouted at him "Ich habe ein Kind" (I'm carrying a child), to which he answered: "Das ist mir Scheiße egal" (I don't give a f**k), after what I went to see his superior who calmed him down in front of me & let me go :cheers:

5) Pas de la Casa, AND, 2001 - entering from France felt like ... entering Disneyland !  Btw, I wanted so much to refuel only when in Andorran territory that my ex's car arrived at the petrol station ... coughing ! :lol:

6) La Jonquera (E) / (F), 2001 - Entering France was a big surprise: hotels were cheaper on the French side than on the Spanish side ! That was before €uro was implemented ...

7) Harrachov (CS at the time, now CZ) / Jakuszyce (PL) - While my parents waited patiently in the car at the border crossing, I went to the Polish side & I was rolling myself in the snow :lol: It was the first time in my life I saw more than 1cm snow ! :lol: There was around 50cm to 1m00


----------



## piotr71

Palance said:


> *How were the other 'inner-iron-curtain' crossings those times*? Unfortunately I have never crossed one of them, my most interesting border in that time was between East and West Germany.
> 
> And my most interesting crossing in the last few years was UAE-Oman.


I didn't experienced many back then. It wasn't that easy to go abroad as it is today. By the fall of communism, except of CSRS I have visited Hungary only. However, my parents crossed CCCP and DDR border several times and father alone even went out of iron curtain, to Austria. What they recollect is detailed checking by malicious customs officials and many hours long queues.


----------



## BND

At the end of the year, a new border crossing will open between Hungary and Serbia: Ásotthalom - Bački Vinogradi


----------



## GROBIN

Any H/HR & H/SRB border crossings only for pedestrians & cyclists ?


----------



## x-type

GROBIN said:


> Any H/HR & H/SRB border crossings only for pedestrians & cyclists ?


afaik no.

i must say that i experienced passing the border in communist times - we traveled to Hungary to Balaton in 1988. i remember empty border crossing, military control, and double ramps (first one about 100 metres before border itself, and secon on the border).


----------



## Mr. America

I remember when i was crossing AT/SK border in Bratislava in the end of 1990s, when I was a child. We were waiting in queue, and then, suddenly we heard a loud noise! We thought that they were shooting to someone, but it turned out, that it burst my ballon, which I got in McDonald's :lol:


----------



## GROBIN

x-type said:


> afaik no.
> 
> i must say that i experienced passing the border in communist times - we traveled to Hungary to Balaton in 1988. i remember empty border crossing, military control, and double ramps (first one about 100 metres before border itself, and secon on the border).


Well, the grandpa of a Polish friend of mine told me very interesting stories from the Stalin times. Like: he was in CS with a friend & wanted to go to the bathroom, but they were both in a forrest so the friend walked away a bit.

After around 10 minutes without news from his friend, he went on the same direction & ... got caught by the H customs.

They were about to be on trial with spying charges. But when they explained they didn't know they were on a borderland (no ramp or barrier at the time) & wanted to urinate, the atmosphere finally loosened. The Hungarian customs guys said they were really sorry, but they were afraid because of Stalin ...

Anyway - *x-type* - I asked you about the cycling border because I may be going to Croatia this summer & I was wondering if I'll go through the Hungarian Balaton or cross, for intance, in the SLO/HR border restaurant in Obrežje you mentioned before with *Verso* ...


----------



## x-type

well you can cross it on bike on regular border crossings. except on motorways. perhaps GOla/Berzence if you're going to Balaton.


----------



## delfin_pl

Czech Republic - Poland


----------



## alserrod

DanielFigFoz said:


> There was a barrier in the form of a chain here from 1974 to 1990, apparently the chain was put up because the Portuguese government was worried about an invasion from a still Francoist Spain (although I don't think that it would stop an invasion :lol



Official name in Spain is "Rihonor de Castilla" and as far as it is not a municipality you will see it written followed by the name of the municipality it takes part of it: Pedralba (province of Zamora, Region of Castilla y León).

The history about the chain I read something about it.

Until Schengen treaty in fact, every citizen should have to show the passport to cross from one side to the other one of those villages. 
Policemen knew to all citizens of both countries and never asked for passport. It was very frequent to have your house in one country and lands to work in the other one.

When Portuguese revolution, it was the Portuguese police which "fenced" that border thinking in a possible invasion from Spain (which had a dictator in the government). It was the only border "fenced" between Portugal and Spain.

And it was not totally fenced. They only cut the road to avoid cars crossing it, but for country vehicles was possible to cross the border by a little river (impossible for cars or trucks but no problem for country vehicles).

The fence was there for several years. Spain got a new government, democracy, elections... but no one asked for it until it was finnally erased.


Today... we can consider as a very small village with a border in the middle.
Bars are in the Portuguese zone and Shops are in the Spanish zone. 
Main "discussions" for senior citizen could be which government increases more the payment for retired people...



A photo of both villages.

Can anyone try to guess where the border is?


----------



## alserrod

GROBIN said:


> Another border that feels like that: Mouscron (B)/ Wattrelos (F). I remember crossing there once & having the suprise that the houses looked similar but the roadsigns suddenly turned from capital letters into small letters on blue roadsigns
> 
> &, of course, Hendaye (F)/Irún (E)




In the case of Hendaye and Irún there is a lot of things to do.

Of course there is free movement. 
When border existed, customs on main road where both of them in Spanish territory and in the motorway where in French territory (and do not know about another local street).

There are too many great towns in the area. In a Spanish thread about railway one forumer made some calculs about population around the Cantabric sea and received the answers that he could consider some areas in the west he considered as far as consider the area until Bayonne.

Hendaye is 16000 people and Irun is 61000 people... 

One thing I do not like about mobility, for instance is that both cities have international stations but... only for "long distance trains". This is... any Spanish train will arrive to Hendaye with passengers and will return to Irun empty... and will depart with passengers but from Irun.
Upside down, a French train will arrive to Irun, return to Hendaye empty and depart from there.

But regional trains and commuter trains do not cross the border which do not help mobility (only 1 km between stations)

There is only one exception... a commuter train of a different gauge that departs from San Sebastian and last station is at Hendaye (a very small station close to SNCF station).


Irun is special city. Apart of the situation of border... it is the second largest city in its province after the capital. 61000 hab.

Province airport is located at Irun, not at San Sebastian.
Well... we could say it is located in the same border. 
Have a look
http://maps.google.es/maps?q=irun&h...=6&hnear=Irún,+Guipúzcoa,+País+Vasco&t=h&z=15

The football team of Irun today is in the Spanish third division... but .. they can say that they were one out of the ten teams that started the Spanish league in 1928 (four teams from Basque country where Irun was one of them one from Cantabria, two from Madrid, three from Catalonia made the first league)

Stadium is also in the border....


http://maps.google.es/maps?q=irun&h...=6&hnear=Irún,+Guipúzcoa,+País+Vasco&t=h&z=16


http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primera_División_de_España_1928/29


----------



## Coccodrillo

alserrod said:


> One thing I do not like about mobility, for instance is that both cities have international stations but... only for "long distance trains". This is... any Spanish train will arrive to Hendaye with passengers and will return to Irun empty... and will depart with passengers but from Irun.
> Upside down, a French train will arrive to Irun, return to Hendaye empty and depart from there.
> 
> But regional trains and commuter trains do not cross the border which do not help mobility (only 1 km between stations)


It's a relic of the past, and the same thing happens in Cerbère (F) and Port Bou (E). It was like that so to allow border checks: passenger of a train coming from Spain were then checked in the French custom, viceversa passengers from France were controlled on Spanish territory.

And despite Schengen agreements this arrangement continues, even if today it makes no sense at all.


----------



## LMB

italystf said:


> I've read on SSC about someone who had problems at the RO-MD border because he had some oregano in his suitcase and they though that was ganja or something.


Not on the topic, but I had my marjoram (majeranek/Majoran) drug-tested by a dumb-looking customs oficer in Montreal, so those aren't urban legends. Bonjour Quebec!


----------



## alserrod

Coccodrillo said:


> It's a relic of the past, and the same thing happens in Cerbère (F) and Port Bou (E). It was like that so to allow border checks: passenger of a train coming from Spain were then checked in the French custom, viceversa passengers from France were controlled on Spanish territory.
> 
> And despite Schengen agreements this arrangement continues, even if today it makes no sense at all.




All railway borders between France and Spain are like that. There is a technical point to take a view: there is a different gauge. This is... Spanish trains requires to change wheels on border to continue in France and upside down (no change required Portugal to Spain). So then, the train goes to the "other country" but departs from the "own country", even from Spain and France.

When Euro did not exist it had the reason that you will buy the ticket in the own country it will run the train and will be payed in Francs or Pesetas depending the country.
Today... all in Euro but they still keeps with the same system.

Problem is that any commuter train or regional train from Spain will arrive only to Irun, never to Hendaye (another "relic" from past). So then, for a citizen in that area will be very easy to get a TGV train Paris-Irun and later a commuter to San Sebastian, but upside down he will have to do something from Irun (end of commuter) to Hendaye.

There is a second commuter railway that arrives to Hendaye and managed by Basque government. There is a little station (I wonder how they made custom controls in that small station) which is besides the main Hendaye station.

In this image:

http://maps.google.es/maps?q=irun&h...=6&hnear=Irún,+Guipúzcoa,+País+Vasco&t=h&z=17

eastern bridge, main railway (both French and Spanish gauges)
later, little commuter train. Only one line. It finish at the Hendaye entrance
Later, two road bridges.

A little in the north, the Hendaye stations
In the south, the Irun stadium, the railway terminal and later the main Irun station
A little to the north, the Irun airport.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The reason of being of this asymmetric service disappeared with Schengen. This oddity could be resolved overnight allowing French trains to leave Irun with passengers on board, and viceversa. There are absolutely no technical reasons that prohibit that.


----------



## MrAkumana

alserrod said:


> *All railway borders between France and Spain are like that*. There is a technical point to take a view: there is a different gauge. This is... Spanish trains requires to change wheels on border to continue in France and upside down (no change required Portugal to Spain). So then, the train goes to the "other country" but departs from the "own country", even from Spain and France.


Actually the times are changing... The Figueres (E) -Perpignan (F) high speed line is operational since 2010, and there is no gauge change as all high speed lines in Spain have european guage. Currently french SCNF TGVs arrive and depart Figueres with passengers.

There is also another regional service between Spain and France. Many trains on the spanish Renfe Barcelona-Puigcerda regional line continue up to La Tour de Carol (F) where they arrive and depart with passengers.


----------



## Attus

I made several trips with my parents in the 80's (I was born in '74). Communist-Communist border controls were usually very strict, almost as strict as from us to Western countries. Especially custom checkings were terrible because of the lack of goods of all communist nations. Even is the early 90s it was forbbiden to fetch a single piece of Deli chocolate from Czechoslovakia to Hungary, and CS custom officer examined my bag detailedly. 
1-2 hours of waiting at HU-CS or CS-DDR border was very common. Everyone get out of the car, take all the bags, open them, etc. etc. And, again, especially the custom checking was very strict, the check of personal papers (passport, visa if needed) was simple. All countries in this region suffered from the lack of goods so that practically everything was forbidden to take from one country to another one.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I thought communist-communist borders were far more relaxed... there goes the idea of "International communism"...


----------



## bogdymol

Funny situation at the Nagylak (Hungary) / Nădlac (Romania) border crossing: a guy went to the border check point while he was pushing his car. When the border officers asked him why he was doing this he replyed that he doesn't have a drivers licence so that's why he is pushing the car. The man declared that he bought the car with 300 € from Germany, but eventually the border officers discovered that the car was actually stolen from Germany a day before. Article in Romanian is here.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I thought communist-communist borders were far more relaxed... there goes the idea of "International communism"...


There were huge differences between 'ideal communism' and 'real communism'. The original Marxist ideal was making all living better while the practical application of this theory made all living worse... I think no country in the world ever experienced the ideal socialism, thus some like Yugoslavia and Cuba were closer than others such N. Korea and USSR during Stalin.

About borders: were checks more relaxed towards western travellers than locals?


----------



## alserrod

MrAkumana said:


> Actually the times are changing... The Figueres (E) -Perpignan (F) high speed line is operational since 2010, and there is no gauge change as all high speed lines in Spain have european guage. Currently french SCNF TGVs arrive and depart Figueres with passengers.
> 
> There is also another regional service between Spain and France. Many trains on the spanish Renfe Barcelona-Puigcerda regional line continue up to La Tour de Carol (F) where they arrive and depart with passengers.




There is another problem: infrastructure is not ready to have trains departing from Hendaye to Spain or from Irun to France. There are only two quais in both stations for the trains of the other country (let's remember they are different gauges).

Furthermore... the railway at Canfranc arrived always from Pau to Canfranc by the tunnel. The station was bi-national... and the town too. I think I talked about the specific status of that village that it is currently running (not applying but not deleted).
Service is made by SNCF bus... so the departs of those buses was given by the own Canfranc station master while that station had that person.

The high speed line between Spain and France is opened in the border. There are two daily trains from Paris to Figueres-Vilafant where you can take a train to Barcelona (timetables shuttle with about 15 minutes delay only). As far as I know they are preparing a branch to have one of them Figueres-Paris and the other Figueres - Paris /Geneve!!!!!!!!!
And all the trains start and ends in the same station.

Only Irun/Hendaye and Port Bou/Cerbere had the "old situation"


----------



## Verso

Attus said:


> Communist-Communist border controls were usually very strict, almost as strict as from us to Western countries.


OTOH, it was far easier for a Yugoslav to get to Italy, Austria or Greece than to Hungary, Romania or Bulgaria, not to mention Albania. In 1986 I was in Montenegro, very close to Albania.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Do you know why? I know that relationships with other communist countries and Yugoslavia weren't good, but neither were those with western countries - especially Italy after WW2.


----------



## Alien x

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Do you know why? I know that relationships with other communist countries and Yugoslavia weren't good, but neither were those with western countries - especially Italy after WW2.


Bad relationship were short lived especially from the late 60's on Trieste became Yugoslavia's shopping mall. Also Yugoslavs did not need visas for most western European countries.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Do you know why? I know that relationships with other communist countries and Yugoslavia weren't good, but neither were those with western countries - especially Italy after WW2.


I-YU relationship normalized in the 60s. In the first years after the war the border was closed at all.


----------



## eucitizen

On the motorway D2, border SK/CZ, Czech side, they removed the sloped, repaved that section and removed the low speed limits, so you can travel at 130kph.
On the Slovak side no changes, but according to the Slovak National Motorway Company, some changes will be made in the 2013.


----------



## Alex_ZR

On 1 January 1967, Yugoslavia was the first communist country to open its borders to all foreign visitors and abolish visa requirements. Western countries also abolished visas for Yugoslav citizen, so you could go with Yugoslav passport both on West and East without visas. Greece was exception (maybe because Tito supported Greek communists during civil war in Greece 1946-49).


----------



## g.spinoza

Alex_ZR said:


> On 1 January 1967, Yugoslavia was the first communist country to open its borders to all foreign visitors and abolish visa requirements. Western countries also abolished visas for Yugoslav citizen, so you could go with Yugoslav passport both on West and East without visas.


I remember my father told me that when he was younger, he used to play football in an amateur team and had the chance to go play in a tournament in Belgrad. I think he played against Red Star, maybe the B team or something. He told me he was "impressed" by Yugoslavia. I never got to know in which sense.
Must have been late 60s, early 70s.



> Greece was exception (maybe because Tito supported Greek communists during civil war in Greece 1946-49).


I don't think this is the reason. Tito supported Italian commies too, during the civil war in Italy 1943-1945.


----------



## eucitizen

Well there was a period that old Yugoslavia was almost at the level of Italy as wealth.

The main reason why Greece put visa for Yugoslav citizens was the issue of Macedonia, as Tito created this republic as part of the Yugoslav federation and that's why Greece vindicated that with the obligation of visa. But it seems it was a pure formality to get Greek visas.
Tito briefly supported Greek communists, as they turned their back to him and supported the Stalin's line so he closed the borders with Greece and the Greek communists didn't get anymore support from Yugoslavia. That was the main reason why in Greece the communists loosed the battle.
Tito at that time had the idea of creating a Balkan federation. He signed that agreement with Bulgaria, but as he didn't abide to Stalin's dictate he was expelled by the Comintern and considered as an heretic, so Dimitrov stopped it. After that,Tito decided to have an own version of communism and has no more reason to support the Greek communists.


----------



## g.spinoza

eucitizen said:


> Well there was a period that old Yugoslavia was almost at the level of Italy as wealth.
> The main reason was and it is still Macedonia, as Tito created this republic as part of the Yugoslav federation and that's why Greece put visa for Yugoslav citizens.


I don't think I understand the link between Yugoslavia's past wealth and Macedonia.


----------



## eucitizen

You were talking about your father coming there and was impressed so I told you that at that time Yugoslavia was quite modern and progressive with people having a good living standard.
The question about Macedonia regards the Greek visa for Yugoslav citizens. Now is it understandable?


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Tito supported Italian commies too, during the civil war in Italy 1943-1945.


After WWII there was a far-left movement that wanted to made Venezia Giulia (Trieste and Gorizia) the 7th Yugoslav republic. In the same period around 2500 Italians, usually workers from Monfalcone shipyards that were influenced by PCI, moved to Pula and Rijeka but they soon decided to return back to Italy probably because the dreamed workers' paradise was different to the reality.

BTW, how were living standards in the SFRY? I know that they were allowed to travel abroad, but were food and other good shortages common and police repressive like in other socialist countries?


----------



## g.spinoza

eucitizen said:


> You were talking about your father coming there and was impressed so I told you that at that time Yugoslavia was quite modern and progressive with people having a good living standard.
> The question about Macedonia regards the Greek visa for Yugoslav citizens. Now is it understandable?


You said. "Yugoslavia was almost as wealthy as Italy. The main reason was Macedonia". I thought the two were connected but couldn't understand in which way.
Now I understand they're two separate topics.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Corvinus said:


> Taking alcoholic beverages (or pure alcohol) from YU was popular with Hungarians at that time :cheers:


It's was still popular in 2005, when I was traveling to Vienna by train via Budapest... (an old lady from Hungary was smuggling "Vinjak")


----------



## Verso

Alex Trst said:


> Not exactly, they wanted Gorizia as part of Slovenia, and just the single municipality of Trieste as the 7th republic.


Makes sense, Trieste is a Balkan city after all.  It's funny that there are almost as many people (330,000) living in the tiny Balkan part of Italy as in the Balkan part of Slovenia (360,000).


----------



## bogdymol

Verso said:


> Makes sense, Trieste is a Balkan city after all.  It's funny that there are almost as many people (330,000) living in the tiny Balkan part of Italy as in the Balkan part of Slovenia (360,000).


So we can say that Italy and Slovenia are equaly Balkanic?


----------



## Verso

Balkan, not Balkanic.


----------



## cinxxx

From 21.12.2011
Schengen Border Hungary (M1)-Austria (A4)


----------



## Verso

cinxxx said:


> *Schengen Border* Hungary (M1)-Austria (A4)


Inner or outer?


----------



## bogdymol

Verso said:


> Inner or outer?


It's just a provincial border in the great country of Schengen.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Makes sense, Trieste is a Balkan city after all.


Only geographically. Trieste had always been inhabitated mostly by Italians, except villages of Carso.


----------



## italystf

Alex Trst said:


> Not exactly, they wanted Gorizia as part of Slovenia, and just the single municipality of Trieste as the 7th republic.


You probably mean province, not municipality.


----------



## MattiG

italystf said:


> I found some old Europe travel guides from 70s and 80s. They have a description of every European country including Soviet Union and the whole eastern block (that could already be visited with visas) but no Albania. So, probably it wasn't possible get there or at least it was very complicate like N.Korea today.


Albania was a different case not really part of the eastern block.

The Albanian dictator Enver Hohxa was a paranoid in relations to the supporting countries. Initially, he was a buddy to Yugoslavia, then to Soviet Union, and finally to China. After breaking the relationships to China, the country took the strategy of isolation, and it remained more a less a white spot on the European map.


----------



## nenea_hartia

MattiG said:


> Albania was a different case not really part of the eastern block.
> 
> The Albanian dictator Enver Hohxa was a paranoid in relations to the supporting countries. Initially, he was a buddy to Yugoslavia, then to Soviet Union, and finally to China. After breaking the relationships to China, the country took the strategy of isolation, and it remained more a less a white spot on the European map.


From what I've heard, it was even forbidden for Albanians to own cars. Don't know if it is true though, but supposing it is, then Hoxha was far more paranoid than our Ceauşescu... hno:


----------



## bogdymol

^^ I heard that the Albanian regime was similar with what it is now North Korea.


----------



## Corvinus

nenea_hartia said:


> From what I've heard, it was even forbidden for Albanians to own cars.


Once I read a reprint of a 1987 Hungarian journalist article about a visit to Albania - it indeed stated that "there are no private cars" in Albania. People would travel by bus, bicycle, moped, donkey and of course on foot.

On YouTube, there is a 1979 Italian report about Albania (five parts - first one here). Somewhere in it, a school exercise is shown where one "target" is the then U.S. president and the other is Brezhnev :hahaha:


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Only geographically. Trieste had always been inhabitated mostly by Italians, except villages of Carso.


Actually I don't think you can say that Italians aren't a Balkan nation (even if it sounds strange). While most live on the Italian Peninsula, Italians used to control much of the western Balkan coast as well (and some still live there).


----------



## Palance

cinxxx said:


> From 21.12.2011
> Schengen Border Hungary (M1)-Austria (A4)


Much better than in 2000 when I crossed this border. It took me 2 hours then.


----------



## cinxxx

Palance said:


> Much better than in 2000 when I crossed this border. It took me 2 hours then.


Now it's a mather of minutes .

@Verso: inner border, but you should have known that, I wrote the date of the journey  :cheers:


----------



## Nordic20T

When I returned from Hungary two weeks ago, policemen were checking (or more taking a look and then waving ) all vehicles that left the country. Any idea what they were looking for? 









(sorry for the quality, it's a screenshot from the video I recorded then)


----------



## bogdymol

^^ I know that while exiting Austria for Italy there was a check at the border, but they were just looking for the vignette. See here @0:31.


----------



## Nordic20T

^^ Yes ASFINAG controls the vignette frequently at the border, but these are hungarian policemen at Hegyeshalom. They really just took a careful look and let people pass. :?


----------



## Alex Trst

italystf said:


> You probably mean province, not municipality.


No, I mean municipality, the rest of the province was intended to be Slovenia too, like Gorizia.


----------



## alserrod

MattiG said:


> Albania was a different case not really part of the eastern block.
> 
> The Albanian dictator Enver Hohxa was a paranoid in relations to the supporting countries. Initially, he was a buddy to Yugoslavia, then to Soviet Union, and finally to China. After breaking the relationships to China, the country took the strategy of isolation, and it remained more a less a white spot on the European map.



off-topic

Sport tournaments make different countries to play together between them all around Europe (and all the world, of course). Maybe football is the most popular but not all.

There were one period when Spain and Albania played together several matches in some years (as well as I remember several matches agains Feroe Islands, not very usual, and against San Marino, even nothing against other countries)


Last match against Albania played in Spain, with a very strong country isolation made that most of players decided not to return Albania after the match.


----------



## TommyLopez

I have seen the same thing on the Czech-Austrian border Mikulov-Drasenhofen where czech police stopped trucks, not only for the control of toll payement but for complete check


----------



## italystf

Corvinus said:


> On YouTube, there is a 1979 Italian report about Albania (five parts - first one here). Somewhere in it, a school exercise is shown where one "target" is the then U.S. president and the other is Brezhnev :hahaha:


I took some time to translate this report from Italian to English:

_In Albanian villages the use of vendetta was a serious problem. Groups of men used to form alliances to fight their personal enemies. Be unfaithful toward an allied was regarded as a very seriuos guilt. During the war the (communist) party re-educated Albanian people.
"Let's the comrade Henver Hoxa live as long as or mountains." - He made Albania a prosperous country. He built everywhere factories, schools and industrial compounds.
Karl Marx though that the communist revolution should be made by factory workers. Mao Tse Tung changed this interpretation and the Chinese revolution was done mostly by poor peasants. In Albania a different kind of revolution happened although nobody theorized it: it was made by shepherds and peasants and we still remember it.
Popular epic poetry is used to narrate the Resistance, before against Italians and later against Germans. Communist Party's leaders are described as Homeric heroes.
The thypical Albanian dance: at the beginning women started to dance, with graceful movements, later also men with more masculine movements. Women use to wear a red dress, made by brides themselves before wedding and dance with a hankie in a hand. Those dances are performed at public festivals and wedding ceremonies.
For years, in Europe and in the world we though that Albania was like a small piece of China in Europe, but it had never been a little China, neither a little Soviet Union, nor the 6th Yugoslav republic (probably the speaker means 7th). It's a sovreign country with an indipendent party who follow the right Marxist-Leninist policy. Those who disagree this policy, aren't communists.
_
Yes, it may seem weird hear this piece of real communist propaganda from a TV report of a Western country. But Italy until the fall of Berlin wall had a strong communist party (PCI) who really regarded Stalin, Lenin, Mao, etc... as heroes and though that the only way for a better future was a communist revolution.


----------



## cinxxx

I found these pictures from my trip to Serbia+Romania along Danube river.
This is a ferry border crossing, AFAIK not with cars at Donji Milanovac (SRB).




























bonus 









This one from village Vinci (SRB) towards Moldova Noua (RO)









And from Golubac (SRB) towards Romania


----------



## Verso

^^ Why is there a statue of mammoth? Was it found nearby?


----------



## cinxxx

Verso said:


> ^^ Why is there a statue of mammoth? Was it found nearby?


Quick Google search:
_This Mammoth statue is the unofficial mascot of the small town on the Danube River. Remains of prehistoric mammoths were found nearby in 1996 and in June 2009._


----------



## nenea_hartia

@ cinxxx: great pics, thanks!


----------



## cinxxx

nenea_hartia said:


> @ cinxxx: great pics, thanks!


:cheers2:

I recently found this thread, and I am reading it from start.
Unfortunately a lot of pictures are not available anymore.
But anyway, great thread!


----------



## hofburg

Danube is full of garbage :/


----------



## italystf

Danube seems an Alpine lake rather a river. It's really wide!


----------



## cinxxx

italystf said:


> Danube seems an Alpine lake rather a river. It's really wide!


Well in the places near the dam it kind of is a lake, it's artifical bigger .



hofburg said:


> Danube is full of garbage :/


Danube is beautiful, you could also see the nice parts, not only the garbage.


----------



## nenea_hartia

italystf said:


> Danube seems an Alpine lake rather a river. It's really wide!


There is a reason: in that area Danube has created a kind of lake at its entering into Danube Gorges.
Btw, take a look at this picture. I made it in Baziaş, where Danube enters in Romania. On the left, Serbian shore. Danube there is huge.



cinxxx said:


> Danube is beautiful, you could also see the nice parts, not only the garbage.


Danube is magical. You can see some pictures of Danube Gorges here. The link is somehow on-topic, since all pictures are taken on the Romanian/Serbian border created by Danube. Some of the pics are even taken in Serbia. There is no border crossing though.


----------



## x-type

i agree, Danube is magical and fascinating river! none of the world rivers never impressed me so much!


----------



## cinxxx

nenea_hartia said:


> There is a reason: in that area Danube has created a kind of lake at its entering into Danube Gorges.
> Btw, take a look at this picture. I made it in Baziaş, where Danube enters in Romania. On the left, Serbian shore. Danube there is huge.
> 
> 
> Danube is magical. You can see some pictures of Danube Gorges here. The link is somehow on-topic, since all pictures are taken on the Romanian/Serbian border created by Danube. Some of the pics are even taken in Serbia. There is no border crossing though.


Except of the road from Moldova Noua to Bazias, I drove the entire Danube border road with Serbia until Portile de Fier I bridge.
Absolutely superb.

http://g.co/maps/cuajc


----------



## hofburg

I agree it's the greatest river of Europe, but I just reported what I saw.


----------



## nenea_hartia

hofburg said:


> I agree it's the greatest river of Europe, but I just reported what I saw.


Of course . Danube is a very long river, crossing through so many countries, and it's navigable. Also, there are many large rivers flowing into Danube. Therefore the pollution. It's sad, but unavoidable. hno:


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## bogdymol

Because of extremely low temperatures the Danube started to freeze in Romania:





*It's in Romanian. Sorry.


----------



## Alex Trst

nenea_hartia said:


> There is a reason: in that area Danube has created a kind of lake at its entering into Danube Gorges.
> Btw, take a look at this picture. I made it in Baziaş, where Danube enters in Romania. On the left, Serbian shore. Danube there is huge.


I guess it's where the island Ada-Kaleh used to be. Now it is underwater.


----------



## cinxxx

Alex Trst said:


> I guess it's where the island Ada-Kaleh used to be. Now it is underwater.


Also other, like village Dubova, which was moved, also historical center of Orsova is under water, for some people it was a huge drama, loosing all their land and houses and work.


----------



## italystf

Is bribing still common at border crossing in Eastern Europe? If so, where?


----------



## Fuzzy Llama

^^
I've heard bad things about Moldova - Transdnistria and Ukraine - Transdnistria crossings.


----------



## Attus

italystf said:


> Is bribing still common at border crossing in Eastern Europe? If so, where?


Everywhere, of course except for EU-EU borders. 
But there are two different types:
1., Borders where you have no problem if your documents are alright and you have no forbidden goods, etc., but you may pass the border even if you have some problem but you bribe the officer. Basically these are Balkan borders.
2., Borders where you can't pass unless you bribe the officer even if your documents are alright and you have nothing that is forbidden, etc. Basically these are ex-USSR borders. 

By 'basically' I mean that not all of them belong to these categories but such a behavior is typical. Additionally, bribing is much more common by heavy freight than in personal traffic.


----------



## alserrod

italystf said:


> Is bribing still common at border crossing in Eastern Europe? If so, where?




In Spain, before entrance to EU and specially while no democratic government, everything except that.

There are different polices and that one who controls the borders is a military police (they still exist).

They are known some cases where a foreing driver is stopped and he tries to give a bank note to policemen... and he goes directly to prison.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Before December 2009, while Serbian citizens needed visas for Schengen, Macedonian policemen wanted 5 euros per tourist group which were going to Greece to scan and stamp passport only one passport instead of 50 passports. Behind the policemen was a anti-bride poster: "Report corruption at telephone number..."! :lol:


----------



## g.spinoza

alserrod said:


> and he goes directly to prison.


Do not pass Go, do not collect $200


----------



## alserrod

Another case I read in newspapers was some groups of people entering Spain thinking to work without residence or working licence.
They came from a Schengen country so they could enter with no control in the border and just they show they were on a tourist trip.

but policemen are not silly.... and they start asking them about money for those 15 days. No money for making tourism... return.
They continued having all of them a 500 euro bank note. They asked, one per one, about the hotel they wen to be... and once it was a very small hotel where all the group coulnd't enter.
Other times they called the hotel to ask about the booking...

It was just five years ago.


----------



## Eulanthe

Hi everyone, as always - more questions. 

Today's question is about the border crossing of Kudowa-Slone/Nachod. I've found some information that this border crossing could be crossed on foot - but I have no idea how. There doesn't seem to be any clear infrastructure on the ground. 

Was this a border crossing with specific infrastructure for pedestrians (like in Frankfurt Oder/Slubice and Medyka/Shegyni)? If so - where/what was used for the control? 

I'm hitting a blank here - there's a building there that looks like it could have been such a thing - http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plik:Kudowa-slone-pomnik.jpg&filetimestamp=20080716100940 - but I have no way of identifying it as such.

Thank you for any help!

(also - another question, but not the main one - does anyone know when the border crossing was reconstructed in Frankfurt (Oder)? I'm talking about the city bridge crossing - the one where the pedestrians had to go through the building. It definitely wasn't like that in 1990 as the building wasn't built like that then - but it was definitely built before the old bridge was demolished. Any help would be appreciated!)


----------



## erxgli

*Guatemala-Mexico border
*


http://v2.cache8.c.bigcache.googlea...otos/original/21454341.jpg?redirect_counter=2


http://v3.cache6.c.bigcache.googlea...otos/original/14352140.jpg?redirect_counter=2

http://v5.cache8.c.bigcache.googlea...hotos/original/8305333.jpg?redirect_counter=2


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## erxgli

*Mexico-Belice Border*
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/15198134.jpg


http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/17000713.jpg


http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/2991746.jpg


http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/15197868.jpg


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/15423972


http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/15389780.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/8799561.jpg


http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/35238486.jpg


----------



## x-type

whoa, those are some laaarge photos! can somebody guarantee in a bank for me to get a credit for a 35" monitor?


----------



## bogdymol

x-type said:


> whoa, those are some laaarge photos! can somebody guarantee in a bank for me to get a credit for a 35" monitor?


The Romanian mod _vinterriket_ ows me a new widescreen display. See my discussion with him here (partialy in Romania). If he gives it to me I'll send it to you as a gift


----------



## hofburg

I have 1080p monitor, and it doesn't fit.


----------



## cinxxx

You can zoom out the screen (CTRL -) and you will see the pictures on your monitors .


----------



## x-type

cinxxx said:


> You can zoom out the screen (CTRL -) and you will see the pictures on your monitors .


or he could find out that human has invented online resizing in online albums. i mean, we all become dumb because we copy too large photos at our albums and resize them before posting. don't you think?


----------



## cinxxx

x-type said:


> *or he could find out that human has invented online resizing in online albums*. i mean, we all become dumb because we copy too large photos at our albums and resize them before posting. don't you think?


or that .
:cheers2:


----------



## erxgli

*MEXICO-USA* Rio Grande River (Rio Bravo del Norte), Mexico (Right), USA (Left)















International Bridge covered by snow at the Amistad (Friendship) reservoir dam
















Border Mexico/US, Amistad (Friendship) Reservoir dam















Above Rio Grande from Mexico side
















:horse::horse::horse::horse::horse:


----------



## erxgli

*MEXICO-USA*

Down to the Rio Grande -Big Bend National Park














Rio Grande - Mexico on the left, USA on the right












Saint Elena Canyon -BIG BEND NATIONAL PARK


----------



## MaXxImE

*Border Spain/Portugal*


http://www.flickr.com/photos/trinitron77/6909202175/



http://www.flickr.com/photos/trinitron77/6909203943/ 



http://www.flickr.com/photos/trinitron77/6909204711/ 



http://www.flickr.com/photos/trinitron77/6909160139/ 



http://www.flickr.com/photos/trinitron77/6909161047/



http://www.flickr.com/photos/trinitron77/6909162183/



http://www.flickr.com/photos/trinitron77/6909163001/



http://www.flickr.com/photos/trinitron77/6909163961/



http://www.flickr.com/photos/trinitron77/6909164745/



http://www.flickr.com/photos/trinitron77/6909165795/ 



http://www.flickr.com/photos/trinitron77/6909166895/ 



http://www.flickr.com/photos/trinitron77/6909170831/


----------



## Think

I love this thread!

In south Spain they coincide Spain, Morocco, the off-shore british territory of Gibraltar and the off-shore spanish territory of Ceuta (I'm sorry for the quality of the graphics):


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

So here we go:

*Morocco as seen from continental Spain*


Estrecho de Gribraltar, desde Tarifa por Chodaboy, en Flickr

*Gibraltar (UK)-Spain border*

In this photo the bottom is Gibraltar (UK) and the top is La Línea de la Concepción (Spain). The airport is in a disputed area managed by Gibraltar. The "fence" could be seen beyond the airport, and yes, the airport has a level-crossing who is the only land-exit of Gibraltar:


Gibraltar: View of the Airport por harry_nl, en Flickr

From nearly the same spot a closer version of the current border:


Gibraltar / Spain Border por kpmarek, en Flickr

As seen from Spain:


gibraltar border 2 por Mike 68, en Flickr

People crosses this border all along the day for many purposes, such as buying the newspaper or cigarretes.

*Ceuta (ES)-Morocco border*

Only some miles away, but now in Africa, we have a small off-shore territory border too. The border crossing is like any other in the world:


Border with Ceuta por hicham daoudi, en Flickr

There are a lot of people in the Moroccan side who walk to the border to work in Spain or take goods:


DSCF1104.JPG por davidkane, en Flickr

The taxis are also the typical image of the Moroccan side:


Tetouan 0029 por SmileNella, en Flickr

Here comes the differences, that is the border between Africa and the European Union, and it's supposed to be the border with the highest GDP between it sides. The European Union has done a high security fence who is so polemic because a lot of people who tried to pass it died:


Ceuta border clôture www.dunmurlautre.net por dunmurlautre.net, en Flickr

The border ends in the beach at the both sides:


Valla fronteriza en Benzú, Ceuta por borjaventura, en Flickr

The bottom is Spain and the top Morocco:


IMG_2163 por Luis.P.Teixeira, en Flickr


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## tbh444

Think said:


> Here comes the differences, that is the border between Africa and the European Union, and it's supposed to be the border with the highest GDP between it sides.


I'd have thought something like Kuwait-Iraq would be a bigger gap, but it's certainly an interesting border. 

On a related note out of interest I once worked out the biggest HDI discrepancies between bordering countries - Spain/Morocco was 12th behind:

Libya	Niger 0.507
Libya	Chad 0.455
Iran	Afghanistan 0.43
China	Afghanistan 0.42
Algeria	Niger 0.414
Turkmenistan	Afghanistan 0.387
Algeria	Mali 0.383
Uzbekistan	Afghanistan 0.358
Tajikistan	Afghanistan 0.336
Kuwait	Iraq	0.333
Libya	Sudan 0.316
Spain	Morocco	0.301

Although what's happened in Libya recently might have affected that of course. Incidentally the most 'similar' countries on that measure were 
Poland / Slovakia; Ecuador / Peru and Kyrgyzstan / Uzbekistan


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## Stainless

tbh444 said:


> I'd have thought something like Kuwait-Iraq would be a bigger gap, but it's certainly an interesting border.
> 
> On a related note out of interest I once worked out the biggest HDI discrepancies between bordering countries - Spain/Morocco was 12th behind:
> 
> Libya	Niger 0.507
> Libya	Chad 0.455
> Iran	Afghanistan 0.43
> China	Afghanistan 0.42
> Algeria	Niger 0.414
> Turkmenistan	Afghanistan 0.387
> Algeria	Mali 0.383
> Uzbekistan	Afghanistan 0.358
> Tajikistan	Afghanistan 0.336
> Kuwait	Iraq	0.333
> Libya	Sudan 0.316
> Spain	Morocco	0.301
> 
> Although what's happened in Libya recently might have affected that of course. Incidentally the most 'similar' countries on that measure were
> Poland / Slovakia; Ecuador / Peru and Kyrgyzstan / Uzbekistan


Interesting, Where does North/South Korea stand in that list? For borders with a big difference people would naturally suggest USA/Mexico, but I doubt that is too different these days.


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## tbh444

Stainless said:


> Interesting, Where does North/South Korea stand in that list? For borders with a big difference people would naturally suggest USA/Mexico, but I doubt that is too different these days.


Good point, don't think North Korea has an HDI rating due to lack of data - yes Mexico has relatively high HDI, but it's still a major GDP per capita difference (just worked these out according to IMF 2011 figures, also excluding North Korea - may have possibly missed others!)

Qatar	Saudi Arabia	78835
Luxembourg	France 49781
Luxembourg	Belgium 47152
Luxembourg	Germany 46894
Kuwait	Iraq	36863
Norway	Russia	36689
Brunei	Malaysia	33939
United States	Mexico	33026
Israel	Syria 25926
Spain	Morocco	25553


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## italystf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungholz
Jungholz is a small Austrian enclave in Germany. Only a point connect it with the rest of Austria (the summit of the mountain _Sorgschrofen_, 1636 m).









The X painted on the rock is the quadripoint.

















Bosnian enclave in Serbia:









Russian enclave in Belarus:









http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vennbahn
This is the "Vennbahn", a former railway (now cicle path) connecting Luxembourg with Aachen (Germany) through Belgian territory. The part through German is still Belgian territory. A very narrow strip of Belgian land divides a tiny part of Germany from the rest of the country.


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## Satyricon84

*Ben Hai*, the old border between *South Vietnam* and *North Vietnam* at 17th parallel









1965. International Control Commission team patroling bridge over DMZ zone. 



























Communist billboard in north vietnamise side


















Anti-communist billboard in south vietnamise side


















North side of DMZ sign saying "South & North are brothers"









Loud speakers blaring propaganda at 17th Parallel



























South vietnamise side. 1961






















































DMZ 1966































































How it looks today


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## nenea_hartia

@ italystf & Satyricon84: very, very interesting pictures, thank you!


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## italystf

In 2 months (Jan-Feb '12) 1071 vehicles and 1588 people had been checked at I-A border near Tarvisio. 4 people had been arrested:
-an Ukrainian woman and her Italian husband carrying 350k € of unknown provenience;
-an Italian driving his Porsche Cayenne with fake insurance sticker;
-an Italian carrying an illegal immigrant into Italy.


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## eucitizen

I guess they checked at the 1st toll station after the border. At the real border only Austrians check sometimes for the motorway sticker. Lately at the 1st toll station on Tarvisio and Brennero there are often the police and the guardia di finanza. So far they never stopped me, probably I don't have a SUV, which is lately seen in Italy as a symbol of arrogance and they are often checked in any part of Italy.


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## brisavoine

Some news about the bridge over the Oyapock River between France (French Guiana) and Brazil (State of Amapá). The bridge is now completed. Road access to the bridge on the French side of the border is complete, and the border checkpoint is complete, but the Brazilian side of the bridge is still... a mess. They are working on road access, and hope to connect the bridge to the Oiapoque-Macapá road by July. Dilma Rousseff, the president of Brazil, would like to inaugurate the bridge in August. God only knows who will be the French president.

As for the road from Oiapoque to Macapá, it is still largely a muddy trail that takes 8 long grinding hours to reach Macapá. The Brazilians are working on it, but it is 5 years late due to corruption problems. The federal government has intervened to clean the mess and so they are now earnestly working on it with 1,500 workers paving the road, so they hope to have the road finally paved by 2013, although it seems a bit optimistic to me.










Picture of the Brazilian side of the bridge taken on August 2, 2011:









The road from Oiapoque to Macapá, not yet paved:


















French side of the bridge:


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## ChrisZwolle

I don't think you can cover 550 kilometers across unpaved roads in 8 hours.


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## brisavoine

That's what the newspaper France-Guyane claims. I don't think the entire road is unpaved. Only the section between Calçoene and Oiapoque is unpaved.


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## Verso

How is "French Guiana" actually pronounced in English? Is it [french gayana], [geeyana], [gweeyana] or somehow else? What about "Guyana"? I suppose [gayana]?


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## g.spinoza

^^
http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Guiana
http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/d225/Guyana


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## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> ^^
> http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Guiana
> http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/d225/Guyana


Thanks! So I've been pronouncing it wrongly. It's also interesting that they're pronounced differently, but then, they're also written a bit differently.


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## DanielFigFoz

Interesting, thats not the case in British English (well in SE England, it probably varies), both are Guy-ar-na, more like the second one. French Guiana is always called that and Guyana is sometimes called British Guiana to distinguish from French Guiana. Suriname is rarely called Dutch Guiana but you can hear it sometimes if someone is talking about the three of them which are known as 'The Guianas'.


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## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> Thanks! So I've been pronouncing it wrongly. It's also interesting that they're pronounced differently, but then, they're also written a bit differently.


Maybe you're pronouncing the Slovenian way 
Incidentally, Guiana and Guyana are pronounced exactly the same in Italian: Goo-yuh-na.


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## brisavoine

In French it's "la Guyane" ([la gɥijan]) and "le Guyana" ([lə gɥijana]. You can't mix them.

Je vais en Guyane.
Je vais au Guyana.

Je viens de Guyane.
Je viens du Guyana.

Simple, isn't it?


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## AtD

It looks to me like the crossing from Spain to Gibraltar still has a lot of controls in place. Is this right? How can this be allowed within the EU?


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## DanielFigFoz

I wouldn't say 'a lot' but there are some. The EU isn't the same as Schengen.


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## italystf

AtD said:


> It looks to me like the crossing from Spain to Gibraltar still has a lot of controls in place. Is this right? How can this be allowed within the EU?


Gibraltar is part of UK that isn't a Schengen member. There are also controls between France and UK.


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## g.spinoza

Let alone the fact that relations between Spain and Gibraltar aren't exactly friendly (even though they used to be even worse).


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## tbh444

DanielFigFoz said:


> Interesting, thats not the case in British English (well in SE England, it probably varies), both are Guy-ar-na, more like the second one. French Guiana is always called that and Guyana is sometimes called British Guiana to distinguish from French Guiana. Suriname is rarely called Dutch Guiana but you can hear it sometimes if someone is talking about the three of them which are known as 'The Guianas'.


I'd have thought the usual British pronounciation would be 'what? where?' I used to think of it as like guinea (as in guinea pig) until I noticed the spelling was like the neighbouring country as opposed to the african / pacific ones...


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## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> Maybe you're pronouncing the Slovenian way
> Incidentally, Guiana and Guyana are pronounced exactly the same in Italian: Goo-yuh-na.


No, in Slovenian they're both called "(Francoska) Gvajana".


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## Stainless

tbh444 said:


> I'd have thought the usual British pronounciation would be 'what? where?' I used to think of it as like guinea (as in guinea pig) until I noticed the spelling was like the neighbouring country as opposed to the african / pacific ones...


I have to admit that until a few years ago I was unaware of where most South American countries were located. I only really know about French Guyana due to the space program and an interest in overseas territories.


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## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> Let alone the fact that relations between Spain and Gibraltar aren't exactly friendly (even though they used to be even worse).





italystf said:


> Gibraltar is part of UK that isn't a Schengen member. There are also controls between France and UK.





AtD said:


> It looks to me like the crossing from Spain to Gibraltar still has a lot of controls in place. Is this right? How can this be allowed within the EU?




There are controls because smuggling. Passport control is not important but smuggling too much.

As well in the bay there are British and Spanish "waters" there are cases where you cross in a couple of meters the border inside the sea and have had cases of both polices crossing by mistake the border when going behind some smugglers.

At Gibraltar there are more societies than inhabitants.


Relations are not bad today. Several years ago a new treaty was signed for both cooperation. One of the points was having an international terminal at airport so then a passenger from a plane from Spain to Gibraltar and going to the border will no cross any border.

Terminal was made. Here you have a lot of pics
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=547755&page=4


and... today no planes go there from Spain (there was one daily only of Iberia).

At Gibraltar, as I know, only British Airways operates from Heathow... and... Iberia and British Airways are... the same entreprise!!!!!!


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## alserrod

brisavoine said:


>




Little detail.

Is the only signal with speed limits at France that do not indicates speed limit on motorways?


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## brisavoine

alserrod said:


> Is the only signal with speed limits at France that do not indicates speed limit on motorways?


Probably, unless there is one on St Martin island.


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## brisavoine

That one is pretty cool. 










I like the stern tone of that one too. Recth und Ordnung.


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## parcdesprinces

brisavoine said:


> That one is pretty cool.


Indeed !


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## Verso

That sign is nothing unusual.


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## Corvinus

brisavoine said:


> I like the stern tone of that one too. Recth und Ordnung.


Where is that second sign?
Is the information on it a little bit outdated? Nowadays, the _autorisations de séjour_ of all EU countries should be equally good ...


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## italystf

Border crossing between Italy and the self-proclamed Indipendent Principality of Seborga:lol:.


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## parcdesprinces

Corvinus said:


> Where is that second sign?
> Is the information on it a little bit outdated? Nowadays, the _autorisations de séjour_ of all EU countries should be equally good ...


It's apparently near Bouzonville (in Moselle on the Franco-German border, near Luxembourg).

And according to that pic taken by Google street view in 2011, the sign is still there:











BTW, this road marks the border, here is the same road few hundred meters away, in the small binational village of "Leiding/Leidingen":









The street is named "Rue de la Frontière" on the French side (literally "Border Street"), and "Neutrale Straße" ("Neutral Street") on the German side.

_


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## keokiracer

@*Italystf*: Can you make the pics smaller please? I don't have a 52 inch screen 

________________________________________________________
This road is split in half by the border:
Left = Belgium
Right = Netherlands

Click for Streetview








Picture from BN de Stem (local newspaper)


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## Palance

Like here: Belgium right, Netherlands left


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## g.spinoza

brisavoine said:


> That one is pretty cool.


Do you know where is this pic taken?


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## bogdymol

^^ I want to ski there


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## MajKeR_

Something from Polish SSC:

*Zwardoń* (PL) - *Skalite* (SK)










Photos taken by *los77* at December 25th, 2011.



los77 said:


> Fotorelacja z *przejście graniczne Zwardoń - Skalite *
> 
> Data wykonania zdjęć : *2011 12 25*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Śnieg jednak istnieje [Snow still exists] :cheers:


*Karlskrona* (S) - *Gdynia* (PL)

Way to Stena Line's ferry terminal.

Photos taken by *Gwiazda=jazda* at February 6th, 2012.



Gwiazda=jazda said:


> Przejście S - PL Karlskrona


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## Verso

Austrian-Slovenian border:









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/31735260

Attention
State border
1.8-km-long
right roadside


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## Satyricon84

italystf said:


> Border crossing between Italy and the self-proclamed Indipendent Principality of Seborga:lol:.


I have been to Seborga, but there wasn't the man standing in the "custom" :lol:
This sign stands at the entrance in the Principality








"Welcome in the ancient Principality of Seborga". The village is very small, only 300 inhabitants and the streets in the burg are all like this one


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## Verso

^^ Is checking documents legal? Is there also control on the Italian side?


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## Satyricon84

When I went there, there weren't controls at all. The Principality has also own currency the "Luigino" 1 Luigino = 5 euro if I remember well. You can use it to buy things in the shops or pay the restaurant for example


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## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> ^^ Is checking documents legal?


No, it's not. I'd indict all of them for high treason.


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## italystf

The "indipendence" of Seborga was proclaimed just to attract tourists. The man who checks passports is just for folklore and has no legal power. Seborga issues its own passports and licence plates but they have no legal value. Cars must also carry Italian plates.


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## Verso

Satyricon84 said:


> When I went there, there weren't controls at all. The Principality has also own currency the "Luigino" 1 Luigino = 5 euro if I remember well. You can use it to buy things in the shops or pay the restaurant for example


I have 5 _crediti_ from the _Federazione di Damanhur_.


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## Markowice10

*Rome,* Italy. 
The border between Italy and The Sovereign Military Order of Malta. 
This really sovereign and legal state. 
The Maltese Order is sovereign subject of the international law providing for diplomatic relations from 93 states.













Interior of the state...












Registration plate *S.M.O.M. * = Sovrano Militare Ordine di Malta.


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## domtoren

*Greece-Bulgaria-Turkey*

around Edirne










Russian military map\, years 1980ies


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## Alqaszar

There is no border between Italy and the S. M. O. M., because the latter has no territory. The order has some souvereign rights, but unlike the Vatican State, is not a state of its own. Only since its older than most of the European states, it is recognized by some (mostly catholic) countries as an own souvereign entity.

I highly doubt that S. M. O. M. numberplates would be regarded as legal in some states.


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## x-type

Verso said:


> I have 5 _crediti_ from the _Federazione di Damanhur_.


does it worth to visit?


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## Markowice10

Alqaszar said:


> There is no border between Italy and the S. M. O. M., because the latter has no territory.
> .


Buildings SMOM in Rome and Malta have the status of exterritoriality.


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## Verso

x-type said:


> does it worth to visit?


Yeah, there're some nice temples.



Markowice10 said:


> Buildings SMOM in Rome and Malta have the status of exterritoriality.


That's like saying Italy borders the US since there's a US embassy in Italy and an Italian embassy in the US.


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## g.spinoza

Markowice10 said:


> Buildings SMOM in Rome and Malta have the status of exterritoriality.


Extraterritoriality is different from actual territory. A SMOM building in ROME with extraterritoriality is still Italian territory, with some limitations. Therefore, SMOM has no territory.


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## Corvinus

Yokohama Customs, at Yokohama International Sea Port - a "border crossing" point of Japan.
Pic taken in 2009.










Sign pointing to the Int'l Passenger Terminal:


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## Dan

brisavoine said:


> Some news about the bridge over the Oyapock River between France (French Guiana) and Brazil (State of Amapá). The bridge is now completed. Road access to the bridge on the French side of the border is complete, and the border checkpoint is complete, but the Brazilian side of the bridge is still... a mess. They are working on road access, and hope to connect the bridge to the Oiapoque-Macapá road by July. Dilma Rousseff, the president of Brazil, would like to inaugurate the bridge in August. God only knows who will be the French president.
> 
> As for the road from Oiapoque to Macapá, it is still largely a muddy trail that takes 8 long grinding hours to reach Macapá. The Brazilians are working on it, but it is 5 years late due to corruption problems. The federal government has intervened to clean the mess and so they are now earnestly working on it with 1,500 workers paving the road, so they hope to have the road finally paved by 2013, although it seems a bit optimistic to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Picture of the Brazilian side of the bridge taken on August 2, 2011:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The road from Oiapoque to Macapá, not yet paved:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> French side of the bridge:


Very cool. Do they have an EU starred 'France' sign there as well, anyone know?


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## g.spinoza

Please, don't quote the pictures. There's no need for us to load all the pictures twice.


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## italystf

"Canned food" found by policemen inside a car crossing the I - SLO border at Fernetti:








Between two pieces of bread 50 grams of... weed
http://www.giornalettismo.com/archives/207651/il-panino-alla-marijuana/


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## Verso

^^ Vegetarian sandwich.


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## LMB

parcdesprinces said:


> It's apparently near Bouzonville (in Moselle on the Franco-German border, near Luxembourg).
> 
> And according to that pic taken by Google street view in 2011, the sign is still there:
> 
> BTW, this road marks the border, here is the same road few hundred meters away, in the small binational village of "Leiding/Leidingen":
> 
> The street is named "Rue de la Frontière" on the French side (literally "Border Street"), and "Neutrale Straße" ("Neutral Street") on the German side.
> 
> _


 As for the information boards, they are everywhere in that area. 

I've seen it, the right side is Saaarland (yuck!). Indeed the street names are funny. There's a German bus that serves the nearby French village, and the road is serviced by the French, even though it's partially completely in Germany.

Here's the bus line: http://hal9000.physik.uni-saarland....line=100204&prodtype=ANY&description=line+422 

...and the stop: http://hal9000.physik.uni-saarland....004&stopname=Grenzhof,+Leidingen+Wallerfangen


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## Genesis01

Palance said:


> How were the other 'inner-iron-curtain' crossings those times? Unfortunately I have never crossed one of them, my most interesting border in that time was between East and West Germany.
> 
> And my most interesting crossing in the last few years was UAE-Oman.




In order to understand this, you need to know that the communist regime worked with great police and army presence everywhere, you couldn't just go around wherever you like. In the really hardcore communism you needed a permit just to leave the town/territory you lived in. Like in North-Korea today. On the other hand crime levels were extremely low. The Soviet Union needed buffer zone in case of war with the west, that included the countries that had a border with the soviets. Yugoslavia didn't, that's why they went soft on them. As far as i know there are still police posts in Ukraine and Russia, and they stop everyone and ask where they going and why, and if the person is a foreigner the procedure can take longer, even include some bribe as well.

So for example in Hungary in the early years of communism (1947-1956) one couldn't travel around, couldn't leave Budapest, the capital without a permit. There were police posts on the road around the country and there were inspections as if you would cross a border but you were just traveling within the country. I have a friend who was a taxi driver at the time and he told that he left Budapest with a passenger on board and came back in a smaller path that the police didn't inspect.


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## Genesis01

Another friend of mine was a border guard in the Austrian-Hungarian border. He told that one had to be very trusted person by the communist regime to be at the western border. They didn't just sent there anybody, but only those who were trustworthy of the government. They were one of the few soldier formations who got real bullets in their guns (2 year service in the military was mandatory back then to every adult males). Once my friend got passed by an east German car while he was on patrol in a path leading to Austria. He shot one round in the air as a warning, and rang the next checkpoint (the phone was built in a tree's body), they arrested the German, turned out he was half asleep, woke up from the gunshot and was really terrified. However a long interrogation started for the trespasser, and my friend was complemented.


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## Genesis01

There were some hardcore communist leaders in the eastern block for example Nicolae Ceaușescu in Romania, and it was commonly known that Romanian border guards liked to funk around with people so most avoided going there. 

In 1989 we went on a holiday trip from Hungary all the way through Yugoslavia to Greece, then to Turkey, Istanbul, then to Bulgaria. It was a one-month-long journey. There was no problem passing to YU, crossing the country we were only once stopped by police but nothing else. Then arriving in the YU-GR border there was a long line waiting, the guards took their time. We spent about a week in Greece then went to Turkey. On the GR-TR border there was a long cue again customs check and everything, even with the car we had to go through a wheel bath to make sure were not carrying any disease. My father told me all this was because the Greek and the Turkish were not very good friends.


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## El Tiburon

Corvinus said:


> What are typical waiting times at the common MEX -> USA crossings? (bearing in mind the issues of illegal immigration and drug trafficking routes)
> What questions do U.S. customs officers typically ask from
> - Mexicans
> - Americans
> - 3rd-country tourists
> What do they check in/on the vehicle?
> Are there smaller, "village" border crossings outside main routes where waiting times are reduced?


If you are carrying Cuban identity papers but do not look or sound Cuban, U.S. Immigration officers will ask Cuban pop culture questions such as the time at which Lola was killed or who owned the banana plantation or what was the reason the boas don't have caves anymore, etc. to make sure you are really a Cuban citizen and that your papers are real and not forged or bought in the black market, and, therefore, you can enter the U.S. with a parole that allows Cubans to apply for permanent residency in a year and a day.


----------



## alserrod

DanielFigFoz said:


> I think that the Portuguese government let people out more than the Spanish (I saw more, I'm not saying that it was easy though, just easier than with Spain) and also had better foreign relations, but it was still an awful regime.




That's thrue. Every country had its relations and government. And borders were controlled in both sides as with any country or airport.

But there were cases of Portuguese or Spanish dissidents arrested by police in the other country and returned inmediately. That's why in Spain people always though in going to France and not to Portugal.


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## zsmg

Genesis01 said:


> Another friend of mine was a border guard in the Austrian-Hungarian border.


Heh I admit I first thought your friend was over a 100 years old (Austria-Hungary was a very long time ago after all :lol: )


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## Verso

^^ And there were no border controls in Europe in those times.


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## italystf

Verso said:


> ^^ And there were no border controls in Europe in those times.


Really? Also between Italy and Austria - Hungary?


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## Verso

I'm not sure, but border controls were introduced after WWI. You could've gone to Moscow without checking documents.


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## Alex_ZR

Verso said:


> I'm not sure, but border controls were introduced after WWI. You could've gone to Moscow without checking documents.


Are you sure? What was than purpose of this passport back in days?


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## Verso

^^ I don't know, that's what Wikipedia says. :dunno:


> Before 1914, it was possible to travel from Paris to Saint Petersburg without a passport.[2] When the First World War came to an end, the practice of issuing passports and performing routine passport controls at national frontiers remained and became the norm in Europe until the implementation of the Schengen Area in 1985.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement#History

More about it here.


----------



## NorthWesternGuy

erxgli said:


> I live in Reynosa Mexico, the city has three international bridges that connect with 3 cities in Texas, Reynosa-Mission, Reynosa-Hidalgo and Pharr-Reynosa. The waiting times range from 5 minutes to over an hour at times, it depends on time of day and day of the week. weekend tends to increase the timeout.
> 
> Crossing into the U.S the migration officers ask for your visa, they ask where you're going and if you have anything to declare, then they let you cross, although some migration officers look into your vehicle to check if you are carrying drugs or something illegal.
> If you are a U.S. citizen, the officer will ask for your passport, verify your citizenship, ask if you have something to declare and then welcome you back to the United States
> 
> when you cross into Mexico, you have to wait your turn in the "red-green light area", If you get the green light, proceed on slowly past the inspection area. If you get the red light, a Mexican Customs inspector will indicate where you need to park for inspection and the soldiers will ask if you have anything to declare and they will check if you are carrying weapons or ammunition. Firearms and ammunition are illegal in mexico, nearly all illegal arms seized in mexico come from the United states.


Basically what this fellow forumer said.

1.-The waiting times are proportional to the size of the city and the importance of the trade route.

Mexicali has 2 border crossings, the normal waiting times are 30-60 min, but during Christmas and New Year (Dec 25 & Jan 1) there are virtually no waiting time. Though on American holidays it's madness, the times can be up to 2-3 hours at the line.

Sonoyta, a small town on the Sonora-Arizona border, most of times doesn't have waiting time, but on holidays the entire town becomes divided by the line of cars waiting to enter the USA. (Sonoyta is between Phoenix and Puerto Peñasco AKA Rocky Point, a coastal city and popular tourist destination).

2.-What he/she said. If you are a third-country citizen, well... I'm sure the better relations the USA and your country have, the less questions they ask you :lol:

3.- Mexican customs officers look for illegal money (huge amounts of money whose origin you can't prove), besides ammo and weapons. When you enter Mexico you can choose between two options: declare lanes or nothing-to-declare lanes. If you choose to declare, you show your merchandise and pay the corresponding taxes. If you choose not to declare, you must cross a lane with a traffic light. If it turns green, you're free to leave with no questions. If it turns red, customs officers will proceed to check your vehicle. The bad thing is when you bring lots of stuff you bought in the US without declaring, if you get red light you'll have your stuff confiscated for sure, the red or green light is a matter of luck.


----------



## NordikNerd

NorthWesternGuy said:


> Mexicali has 2 border crossings, the normal waiting times are 30-60 min, but during Christmas and New Year (Dec 25 & Jan 1) there are virtually no waiting time. Though on American holidays it's madness, the times can be up to 2-3 hours at the line.


The border at Calexico was featured on the Tv-show "America's Border Security"
on channel 10 here in Sweden.

Also like "Border security Australia" a similar show.


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## italystf

NorthWesternGuy said:


> Basically what this fellow forumer said.
> 
> 1.-The waiting times are proportional to the size of the city and the importance of the trade route.
> 
> Mexicali has 2 border crossings, the normal waiting times are 30-60 min, but during Christmas and New Year (Dec 25 & Jan 1) there are virtually no waiting time. Though on American holidays it's madness, the times can be up to 2-3 hours at the line.
> 
> Sonoyta, a small town on the Sonora-Arizona border, most of times doesn't have waiting time, but on holidays the entire town becomes divided by the line of cars waiting to enter the USA. (Sonoyta is between Phoenix and Puerto Peñasco AKA Rocky Point, a coastal city and popular tourist destination).
> 
> 2.-What he/she said. If you are a third-country citizen, well... I'm sure the better relations the USA and your country have, the less questions they ask you :lol:
> 
> 3.- Mexican customs officers look for illegal money (huge amounts of money whose origin you can't prove), besides ammo and weapons. When you enter Mexico you can choose between two options: declare lanes or nothing-to-declare lanes. If you choose to declare, you show your merchandise and pay the corresponding taxes. If you choose not to declare, you must cross a lane with a traffic light. If it turns green, you're free to leave with no questions. If it turns red, customs officers will proceed to check your vehicle. The bad thing is when you bring lots of stuff you bought in the US without declaring, if you get red light you'll have your stuff confiscated for sure, the red or green light is a matter of luck.


How they know if you bought that stuff in the USA in this occasion, if you throw away packagings?


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## Blaskovitz

Alex_ZR said:


> Are you sure? What was than purpose of this passport back in days?


This is pass from Galicja in German and Polish.


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## zsmg

Alex_ZR said:


> Are you sure? What was than purpose of this passport back in days?


Just because there were no border controls within Europe doesn't mean you don't need a passport I would assume that if you wanted to visit the USA or the Ottoman Empire you would have still needed a passport. ;P


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## italystf

zsmg said:


> Just because there were no border controls within Europe doesn't mean you don't need a passport I would assume that if you wanted to visit the USA or the Ottoman Empire you would have still needed a passport. ;P


In the past border checks were enforced to control trades of goods, including between different Italian states before 1861.


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## DanielFigFoz

Alex_ZR said:


> Are you sure? What was than purpose of this passport back in days?


Proof of identity probably


----------



## NordikNerd

I have some vague plans of visiting Italy, arriving around 11 o clock in Trieste on saturday june 16th.

I thought of paying a short visit to Istria before going the other way in the direction Comacchio, Italy.

The border south of Trieste, how long does it take to pass it on a saturday in june. 1 hour or more? Do I need a vignette ? how much does it cost ? does slovenia have any special rules, like environmental sticker, bringing fire extinguisher or something like that. 

Is the istrian SLO/HR border less time consuming?

If I arrive in Trieste 11.00 How much time do I need for a roadtrip to Koper-SLO including 1h stay there and return trip back to Trieste ?


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## ChrisZwolle

The Italian - Slovenian border will take about 0 seconds as there are no border checks.


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## NordikNerd

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Italian - Slovenian border will take about 0 seconds as there are no border checks.


Looking at Google earth it seems like a major checkpoint with several lanes.


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## italystf

NordikNerd said:


> Looking at Google earth it seems like a major checkpoint with several lanes.


They didn't demolished old facilities after SLO joined Schengen in 2007. For Slovenian motorways (Ax routes) and expressways (Hx), you need a vinjeta (15EUR for a week). In Slovenia you need a fire extinguer and a first aid kit in your car. If you drive from Trieste to Rijeka no vinjeta is needed. If you go from Trieste to Umag you can avoid vinjeta by taking local roads instead of H5. Queues at SLO-HR border are common in summer, expecially on weekends.
Trieste - Koper is about 30 mins by car. In Trieste is better park on private parking lots near rail and bus station or on the seafront near the aquarium, but you have to pay. Streets are overcrowded and traffic is chaotic at peak hours. Everything interesting in Trieste is within walking distance.
If you will drive to Comacchio, follow the A4 towards Venice, then the A57 and finally SS309 to Ravenna. Trieste - Comacchio is around 3h. You can also reach Comacchio all the way by motorways, via Mestre, Padua and Ferrara, but you will spend more for fuel and toll. The Ferrara - Comacchio motorway is very substandard.

For any info about north west Italy, PM me. I'm glad to solve your doubts.


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## g.spinoza

NordikNerd said:


> does slovenia have any special rules, like [...]bringing fire extinguisher or something like that.


You don't have to worry about special equipment. As per the Vienna convention (or is it the Geneva convention?) you can travel in any agreeing country with just the equipment required in your own country.


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## italystf

Just checked: the first aid kit is mandatory, the fire extinguers only for vehicles over 3500kg.


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## alserrod

italystf said:


> How they know if you bought that stuff in the USA in this occasion, if you throw away packagings?




Andorran borders are strongly controlled by French and Spanish police as well as it is a full small duty free country.
At Spain they will check ALL, ALL, ALL cars. You open the car and a police ask for a random baggage to be checked. They know that smuggling is only made if the full car has something to be declared (and you need several journeys to make a little bussiness...).

They will accept everything considered as "self goods". For example your photo camera. You can buy a new camera, throw the box and papers... and they will say nothing.

They will accept you carried it before entering Andorra (they know it is possible that you didn't but they are not worried in those cases).

But... there are some goods that it is very difficult to explain that you carried to that country just to have two days holidays or similar.

Furthermore, should you carry legally any good, you can declare it before quiting Spain and entering Andorra. They will give you a document that can be shown when coming back as a proof that the good is legal (nothing to declare there).

It is very infrequent... but with a 30 min. delay in the border it can be done.

Maybe, Gibraltar and Andorra borders at Spain are the borders with more control for customs, more than any airport.
At any airport they will check you do not have drugs, weapons and few things more. In a 20 kg suitcase you cannot carry so much than inside a car.

But from Andorra and Gibraltar you will see very few passport controls and a lot, lot, lot of baggage controls.


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## italystf

A similar situation exists in Livigno, a VAT-free town in Italy near the CH border. Goods, expecially fuel, tobacco, alchol and electronics are very cheap there but you can export them freely only within a certain limit, otherwise you must declare them and pay a fee. Border checks are stricly enforced, they didn't check passports because is the same country but they inspect vehicles. I know people (family with children, not suspicious) that had their car and luggage inspected everywhere for a half of hour. Has anyone in this forum been there? Personal experiences would be interesting.


----------



## Satyricon84

italystf said:


> A similar situation exists in Livigno, a VAT-free town in Italy near the CH border. Goods, expecially fuel, tobacco, alchol and electronics are very cheap there but you can export them freely only within a certain limit, otherwise you must declare them and pay a fee. Border checks are stricly enforced, they didn't check passports because is the same country but they inspect vehicles. I know people (family with children, not suspicious) that had their car and luggage inspected everywhere for a half of hour. Has anyone in this forum been there? Personal experiences would be interesting.


I have been in Livigno in 2006. It was in April and the only access for Livigno was through the Foscagno pass (SS301); the Forcola of Livigno pass was still closed due snow. We were three young boys (I was 22 y.o. and my friends were 20 y.o.) in a Opel Corsa so apparently a car to stop for a control. Instead nobody stopped us. There was a guard but he seemed too much busy to don't freeze in the snow (the checkpoint is in Trepalle - 2.069m - and it has an altitude over 200m higher than Livigno - 1.816m.). But in general yes, there are controls. I guess now with higher VAT in the rest of Italy people living close to Livigno goes there to buy things more than in past, so should be more controls. This is Trepalle and the SS301 going to Livigno (6 Km far away)


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## Barciur

g.spinoza said:


> You don't have to worry about special equipment. As per the Vienna convention (or is it the Geneva convention?) you can travel in any agreeing country with just the equipment required in your own country.


It would be nice if the Belarussians followed that :nuts:


----------



## x-type

NordikNerd said:


> I have some vague plans of visiting Italy, arriving around 11 o clock in Trieste on saturday june 16th.
> 
> I thought of paying a short visit to Istria before going the other way in the direction Comacchio, Italy.
> 
> The border south of Trieste, how long does it take to pass it on a saturday in june. 1 hour or more? Do I need a vignette ? how much does it cost ? does slovenia have any special rules, like environmental sticker, bringing fire extinguisher or something like that.
> 
> Is the istrian SLO/HR border less time consuming?
> 
> If I arrive in Trieste 11.00 How much time do I need for a roadtrip to Koper-SLO including 1h stay there and return trip back to Trieste ?


you don't need a vignette for reaching Koper. i mean, you need if you will use H5. but you can easily reach Koper using free state road 741. tip: at the border crossing keep on right and just after it take exit to OMV gas station. from there it is not hard to follow direction Škofije and Koper.

about SLO/HR border: that weekend you will pass it in few minutes. but next weekend (23.-24.06.) will be disaster because 22. and 25.06. are holidays in Croatia and people will go for short trips that weekend. if not on border, there will be crowds on toll stations in HR.


----------



## g.spinoza

Satyricon84 said:


> I have been in Livigno in 2006. It was in April and the only access for Livigno was through the Foscagno pass (SS301); the Forcola of Livigno pass was still closed due snow. We were three young boys (I was 22 y.o. and my friends were 20 y.o.) in a Opel Corsa so apparently a car to stop for a control. Instead nobody stopped us. There was a guard but he seemed too much busy to don't freeze in the snow (the checkpoint is in Trepalle - 2.069m - and it has an altitude over 200m higher than Livigno - 1.816m.). But in general yes, there are controls. I guess now with higher VAT in the rest of Italy people living close to Livigno goes there to buy things more than in past, so should be more controls. This is Trepalle and the SS301 going to Livigno (6 Km far away)


The same experience I had, but I went there in December, so probably it was even colder 

But when I was a kid, back in the 80s, we went there with my family and I remember we were stopped at Foscagno pass and checked.


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## eucitizen

On some newspapers I read that in France it is mandatory for all drivers to have aboard an alkohol tester and this should be valid also for foreign drivers. It is another violation of the Vienna convention, but maybe it is just an exageration of the newspapers.


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## Jeroen669

I´ve been to Livigno last summer. I remembered travelling from Sankt Moritz towards Bormio three checkpoints: the first one directly after leaving the main road Sankt Moritz - Poschiavo, the second one on the actual border and the thirth one a few kms east of Livigno. At none of these checkpoints have I been checked.

I wasn't even aware at first that I had entered a duty-free zone. It just thought it was a nice route to travel towards the Stelvio pass. I was quite surprised to see regular unleaded for just €1,08 per liter.


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## bogdymol

eucitizen said:


> On some newspapers I read that in France it is mandatory for all drivers to have aboard an alkohol tester and this should be valid also for foreign drivers. It is another violation of the Vienna convention, but maybe it is just an exageration of the newspapers.


I've read that foreign people that are just visiting France with their own cars don't need to have this alcohol tester in their car. I think it's just a newspaper exageration. Journalists do this very often.


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## eucitizen

Yes I was thinking it was just an exageration to show how the French are bad.


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## Surel

italystf said:


> A similar situation exists in Livigno, a VAT-free town in Italy near the CH border. Goods, expecially fuel, tobacco, alchol and electronics are very cheap there but you can export them freely only within a certain limit, otherwise you must declare them and pay a fee. Border checks are stricly enforced, they didn't check passports because is the same country but they inspect vehicles. I know people (family with children, not suspicious) that had their car and luggage inspected everywhere for a half of hour. Has anyone in this forum been there? Personal experiences would be interesting.


I was in Livigno with friends in August 2007 when we headed towards Aosta. Someone had this crazy idea we would tank very cheap there. That seemed a good idea because sometimes the spot consumption went up to 40 l per 100 km on the display, when you stepped on the gas pedal in the middle of a hill. On average it was around 12 l I think. It really did not compensate the time and gas we lost trying to find Livigno but it was nice ride there.

Well it was nice anyway because of the landscape and we visited Lichtenstein as well. We were four young guys in an old Audi A8 with CZ plate... We were not stopped by anyone on the way to Italy. When we went back to CZ from Chamonix we were visiting friend in Konstanz. We were again not stopped on the Swiss border when entering or leaving Switzerland on the way there. When leaving Constanz we could have chosen two ways. One went only through Germany and was bit longer, or we could have go back to Switzerland and go through Switz to Bregenz and further on to München etc.

I had a hunch we should not go through Switzerland again, that we were already lucky enough with the border controls. Well we did go throug Switzerland and indeed they stopped us at the control as the only car. They let us drive to the garage and let us empty the car completaly. We spent there about two hours. It was rather funny, because when leaving the Chamonaix we just came from Mont Blanc and we threw all the clothing and things into the trunk, really did not care about packing from that time on. So the dirty socks etc were everywhere. Well, like four guys after 10 days climbing holliday... The switzz officers had really funny job that day. Though they did not even check my pockets, nor had a dog. So If I carried something they would not find anything.

Anyway it was great car trip and holliday involving digging the bogged down Audi A8 into the muddy german field around 8 pm, the quatro did help, but the heavy beast was just hell heavy. Don't ask me how we got there in the first place .


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## parcdesprinces

bogdymol said:


> I've read that foreign people that are just visiting France with their own cars don't need to have this alcohol tester in their car.


Actually, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but that's not true .
Since all the foreign people driving on French roads must respect French highway code (and all the French laws when they are in France btw), then it obviously includes this new decree (not to mention that I read it in numerous French articles and on several official websites of the French authorities).

Oh, and honestly, can't you afford a couple of single-use breath alcohol testers which cost less than €2 each ? :|


----------



## italystf

Jeroen669 said:


> I´ve been to Livigno last summer. I remembered travelling from Sankt Moritz towards Bormio three checkpoints: the first one directly after leaving the main road Sankt Moritz - Poschiavo, the second one on the actual border and the thirth one a few kms east of Livigno. At none of these checkpoints have I been checked.
> 
> I wasn't even aware at first that I had entered a duty-free zone. It just thought it was a nice route to travel towards the Stelvio pass. I was quite surprised to see regular unleaded for just €1,08 per liter.


I don't understand the checkpoint between Sankt Moritz and Poschiavo, inside Switzerland.


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## bogdymol

parcdesprinces said:


> Actually, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but that's not true .
> Since all the foreign people driving on French roads must respect French highway code (and all the French laws when they are in France btw), then it obviously includes this new decree (not to mention that I read it in numerous French articles and on several official websites of the French authorities).
> 
> Oh, and honestly, can't you afford a couple of single-use breath alcohol testers which cost less than €2 each ? :|


So you are saying that if I am in Germany and I want to do a 3-hour visit in Strasbourg I need to buy that alcohol tester? It's not that it's expensive, but I don't think that those 2€ are well spent.

And btw: you said "a couple". How many should you have in your car? One is not enough? And what's the puropose of this devices? If you get stopped by the Police they test you with your own tester?


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## ChrisZwolle

I never drink and drive, the breathalyzer obligation for every motorist is an insult to people's common sense. 

You need enforcement, not silly stuff like breathalyzers. Typical symbol politics.

You need a shopping list of what's obligated and what not in Europe nowadays.


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## bogdymol

I also never drink and drive. I don't have any problem with random alcohol tests taken by the Police, but if they want to test my alcohol level (which is 0) they should bring their own testers.


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## parcdesprinces

bogdymol said:


> And btw: you said "a couple". How many should you have in your car? One is not enough? And what's the puropose of this devices? If you get stopped by the Police they test you with your own tester?


As far as I understood, you must have at least one non-used tester, and since the purpose of this decree is to make drivers take responsibility, so, having a minimum of two in your car will allow you to test yourself whenever you need, and still having at least one non-used tester as asked by the decree.

BTW, the implementation of this decree is planned for next july, and drivers who don't have testers won't be fined until next november.

PS: Oh, and Police patrols will continue to use their own testers during the Police controls of course.


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## bogdymol

parcdesprinces said:


> As far as I understood, you must have at least one non-used tester, and since the purpose of this decree is to make drivers take responsibility, so, having a minimum of two in your car will allow you to test yourself whenever you need, and still having at least one non-used tester in case of police control.


Why would I test myself? I know that if I drink even a little bit I shouldn't drive.

edit: or you mean... testing myself after a long night + hangover? To see if any alcohol is still in my blood since last night?


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## Surel

Zero tolerance and strict enforcement would be better policy in my eyes.


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## g.spinoza

^^ Never heard of it


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## cinxxx

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegeta_(food)*









*http://www.swisslion-takovo.com/proizvodi/konditori/eurocrem/*
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocrem*


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## g.spinoza

^^ Yeah, I know, I already seen the wiki page. It's there that I realized I've never heard it. Is it sold in Germany too? 'Cause I don't remeber having seen it in stores while I was living there.


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## cinxxx

I bought Vegeta in Kaufland here, so yes, it's sold in Germany .
Eurocrem, I didn't see on the market, but in a Turkish shop, I did, 1€ a chocolate tablet.


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## g.spinoza

^^ Well, I've never even heard of Eurocrem, even though they make it here in Brescia   In Italy of course Nutella is king of the market, and second it's probably Crema Novi:









But I learned to make excellent hazelnut cream on my own, so I don't buy either


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## Verso

I still call every kind of hazelnut cream "eurocrem".  (although I doubt they still sell it here)


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## cinxxx

You can find Eurocrem in Serbia for sure, I know I bought last year.
Also in Timisoara, a little more expensive...


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Dutch are even in East Germany





g.spinoza said:


> Dutch people... no, better yet: Dutch cars are everywhere. :cheers:



It was posted in a Spanish thread about road and motorways history.

AP-7 motorway in the border Spain-France was open in the 70s and one forumer posted a scanned page of the newspaper where it appeared the news.

The news said that the first car crossing that border was Dutch.


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## Zagor666

cinxxx said:


> And still is popular . We called it "supco".
> Also popular were Eurocrem and Cipiripi.


Cipiripi :banana: its great,but Kinder-Lada(today Lino-Lada)is even better.I can eat a whole Glas on one day  

We were in Constanta the first year after Causescu´s death and it was very interesting to see how a eastern europe beach on the black sea looks compare with some beaches in spain or italy,today its completely differend


----------



## veteran

*Border between Slovakia (Trstené pri Hornáde) and Hungary (Kéked). *
Border line is there from 1920 when was the (Czecho)Slovak-Hungarian border confirmed definitively in Trianon. 

Situation on map from 1927 (Nádošt = Trstené pri Hornáde, SK).


Situation on map from 1958.


There is currently only loose-surface road - a new asphalt road for regular traffic (6,5 m wide) is expected in June 2012.

Current situation from Google Earth.


Border stones (S = Slovensko, Slovakia; MO = Magyarország, Hungary):
       

Border line in the middle - on the left side Slovakia, on the right side Hungary.









Border line goes along the right side of burnt field. Left side - Hungary, right side - Slovakia.









Old table POZOR! Štátna hranica (DAGNER! State border) on Slovakian side (from pre-Schengen era).









Slovakian side, ca. 200 meters from border line. This house was a seat of Czechoslovak financial guard in 1930'-es. Today it's an apartment house.









Look from Hungarian side to Slovakia (ca. 200 m from border line)


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## Corvinus

A crossing at an altitude of over 3000m a.s.l:
(actual Swiss border is about 100m ahead, signed by a large Swiss cross on the ski run)


----------



## alserrod

Are they any border controls down sky resort?


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## Corvinus

The resorts (villages) down at the base are entirely in their respective countries, so no border controls there. Also, there weren't any installations up there on the slopes.
You may, however, have customs officers patrolling on skis at the actual border line. They may then ask for an ID and if there is anything to declare.


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## alserrod

but... what about if you go skiing and you use for a border crossing illegally? are they enough controls there or they have self controls in their villages?


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## MattiG

alserrod said:


> but... what about if you go skiing and you use for a border crossing illegally? are they enough controls there or they have self controls in their villages?


Switzerland has joined the Schengen agreement. So no problem.


----------



## cinxxx

Is there still border control between Austria and Liechtenstein?
Do you get a stamp on your passport?


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## italystf

cinxxx said:


> Is there still border control between Austria and Liechtenstein?
> Do you get a stamp on your passport?


No, also Liechtenstein joined Schengen last December.


----------



## Corvinus

MattiG said:


> Switzerland has joined the Schengen agreement. So no problem.


Well there can be some if you are smuggling, since Switzerland is not in the EU customs area. You could e.g. transport large amounts of cash, or some expensive new watch undeclared, which is against the law.
But concerning this, the same applies to ski runs as to "green borders" down in the valley - you don't have a customs officer every 50 meters.


----------



## bogdymol

cinxxx said:


> Do you get a stamp on your passport?


No, you don't get a stamp on your passport at the border crossing, but I know that there is a tourist office in Vaduz where (for a fee ~5€) you can get your passoport stampped with a Liechtenstein visa.


----------



## MattiG

Corvinus said:


> Well there can be some if you are smuggling, since Switzerland is not in the EU customs area. You could e.g. transport large amounts of cash, or some expensive new watch undeclared, which is against the law.
> But concerning this, the same applies to ski runs as to "green borders" down in the valley - you don't have a customs officer every 50 meters.


Yes, of course, but that does not make the border crossing itself illegal. The border crossing is legal and the smuggling is illegal.


----------



## Verso

parcdesprinces said:


> Pointe Helbronner is located on the cable car line above the Mont-Blanc massif & glaciers between Chamonix (France) and Courmayeur (Italy), this cable car line, which is the highest one in Europe, reaches 3778 m at the Aiguille du Midi "station"


Klein Matterhorn cable car reaches 3,820 m.


----------



## Corvinus

^^

(pic taken in March 2012)


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## alserrod

IN-CRE-DI-BLE!!!!!

More pics... and more info about that border, please!!!!


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## alserrod

Another mountain ski resort border. This time between France and Spain in the RN-134 / N-330.
Down of the mountains we have the 8,1 km Somport tunnel which avoids to cross these mountains.

The road is one of the old Pilgrim's St. James lane.


At Spain there is a down-hill ski resort, the oldest in Spain (just 1 km away from border) and a very small part of a cross-country ski.
At France there is the major part of the cross-country ski resort.

In fact, the cross-country ski resort is called "Candanchu - Le Somport" and is absolutely international.

Here you can have a map of the Candanchu ski resort

It is only in Spanish. You can see the different ski lanes and the colour (a lot of black ones!!). In the right you have "circuito de fondo" that it is part of the "Candanchu-Le Somport"

http://www.candanchu.com/imagenes/plano.pdf

This is the map of the French side but the border appears.
In the left, the Somport mountain pass. All the ski lanes and in black, the border. Most of them are at France but not all, so you can do cross-country skiing in a binational ski resort

http://www.lesomport.com/images/plandespistes.pdf


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## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> Klein Matterhorn cable car reaches 3,820 m.


Klein Matterhorn is the mountain you can see in my previous picture:


> taken by me


It is reachable by cable car only from Zermatt, but they are building another cable car to there from Testa Grigia Plateau Rosa, which is where I took the picture.


----------



## alserrod

About the Somport border

This is Candanchú ski resort. It is in Spain but the border (and St. James Pilgrim's highest point of the route) is behind the forest. The valley that goes ahead takes to Astun ski resort (3 km from Candanchu), the mountains in the left makes border with France

The cross-country ski will start in the left but very soon will be France with no signals.













Same photo on winter. The border is again behind the forest in the middle of the photo. All the top left side of the photo is France











This resort is in Spain but in the left of the photo you have the cross-country ski which is almost all in France


----------



## parcdesprinces

Verso said:


> Klein Matterhorn cable car reaches 3,820 m.


OK, fixed :baeh3::



parcdesprinces said:


> Speaking of which, here is the Franco-Italian border at the Pointe Helbronner (3,462 m (11,358 ft)).
> Pointe Helbronner is located on the cable car line above the Mont-Blanc massif & glaciers between Chamonix (France) and Courmayeur (Italy), this cable car line, *which was the highest in the World when it opened in 1955,* reaches 3,778 m at the Aiguille du Midi "station" (where the summit terrace & the restaurant are at 3,842m). I took the entire line two times, and I have to say that it's quite spectacular, especially the view above glaciers, and of course the view of the Mont-Blanc and all the other 4,000m+ summits.


BTW, as far as I know, the Klein Matterhorn lift is not precisely a "cable car line" between two resorts/cities but simply a "cable car lift", unlike the line/connection between Chamonix and Courmayeur (which is 21km long and includes, among others, the Aiguille du Midi cable car lift), so that's why I wrote that this cable car line is the highest one in Europe.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Correct. Its record was short-lived, though, because in 1960 the Merida cable car in Venezuela reached 4,765m

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mérida_cable_car


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## Verso

parcdesprinces said:


> BTW, as far as I know, the Klein Matterhorn lift is not precisely a "cable car line" between two resorts/cities but simply a "cable car lift", unlike the line/connection between Chamonix and Courmayeur (which is 21km long and includes, among others, the Aiguille du Midi cable car lift), so that's why I wrote that this cable car line is the highest one in Europe.


People don't use the cable car to get from Chamonix to Courmayeur (you have a tunnel for that), but to get to Aiguille du Midi.


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## Cyganie

*Mae Sai (Thailand) → Tachileik (Myanmar)*
(taken by me in 2010)










View to the south:









...and towards Myanmar in the north:


----------



## cinxxx

Bietingen (DE) - Thayngen (CH)


P1080360 by cinxxx, on Flickr


P1080361 by cinxxx, on Flickr


CH - E41/E54 by cinxxx, on Flickr


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## Corvinus

Entering the Netherlands at seaport in Hoek van Holland:










The lower, illegible sign is the "keep right" reminder for islanders.


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## parcdesprinces

Verso said:


> People don't use the cable car to get from Chamonix to Courmayeur (you have a tunnel for that), but to get to Aiguille du Midi.


Well, during summer (especially because the connection with Courmayeur is closed during winter), much more people than you think take the line entirely (From Cham. to Courmayeur e.g. to enjoy a good meal in one of the great restaurants of Courmayeur, or for food shopping etc) and then back to France by bus by the Tunnel (and vice versa). 
I did it twice as I wrote earlier, and trust me we were far from being alone to buy such a ticket. Actually this trip with the view above glaciers etc is a tourist attraction by itself... Much more than the Aiguille du Midi ascend.


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## Corvinus

A3 (D) -> A12 (NL)

photos taken in April 2012

1. Border ahead in 1 km










2. the actual border


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## kmieciu

*Świecko, Poland - Germany*


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## Verso

Border crossing Ljubelj/Loibl between Slovenia/Yugoslavia and Austria in 1980s:









An Austrian trying to smuggle coffee into SLO/YU (probably a Yugoslav working in Austria or an Austrian trying to sell coffee in Yugoslavia):








http://www.delo.si/druzba/panorama/cez-ljubelj-po-alvorado-in-pralni-prasek_2.html


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## alserrod

Was illegal to import coffee?

I read the maximum quantities to import to my country for these goods and today they allow until 600 EUR in any kind of food (some of them have more restrictions, but not food). They only make controls at Andorra and Gibraltar because from France, Portugal and Morocco or by plane it doesn't worth to make smuggling with these goods.
(and from Andorra and Gibraltar it is not the best bussiness...)


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## Verso

alserrod said:


> Was illegal to import coffee?


Only 1 kg per person (so the whole family went shopping, not just a driver). There was hardly any real coffee in Yugoslavia in 1980s, just cheap copies (like "coffee" from cereals).


----------



## MattiG

alserrod said:


> Was illegal to import coffee?
> 
> I read the maximum quantities to import to my country for these goods and today they allow until 600 EUR in any kind of food (some of them have more restrictions, but not food). They only make controls at Andorra and Gibraltar because from France, Portugal and Morocco or by plane it doesn't worth to make smuggling with these goods.
> (and from Andorra and Gibraltar it is not the best bussiness...)


600 EUR? If I remember, the EU-regulated limit is 300 EUR in the non-air traffic in case of importing goods from non-EU countries.


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## italystf

Verso said:


> Only 1 kg per person (so the whole family went shopping, not just a driver). There was hardly any real coffee in Yugoslavia in 1980s, just cheap copies (like "coffee" from cereals).


Why? Was difficult for foreign companies export there?
Italians went to Yugoslavia to buy cheap fuel, cigarettes and meat.


----------



## xerxesjc28

parcdesprinces said:


> BTW, this road marks the border, here is the same road few hundred meters away, in the small binational village of "Leiding/Leidingen":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The street is named "Rue de la Frontière" on the French side (literally "Border Street"), and "Neutrale Straße" ("Neutral Street") on the German side.
> 
> _


Can people cross to either side with out getting in any sort of trouble? There is a town like that between the USA and Canada up in the North East and if people cross over a line on the road they get ticketed or something. You have to apparently go to a customs port and get authorization even if they just going across the street to buy something. There are cameras everywhere too, and police will swarm the person if they cross over, not sure if that is only on the USA side or both sides. 

Here is an article on it http://www.nowpublic.com/press/us-canada-border-towns-face-security-crackdown.

And here is another article on another town http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/11/us/nation-challenged-inconveniences-us-town-reached-via-canada-suddenly-boxed.html I really don't understand why the USA has to treat the Canadian border like it was a 3rd world country so sad.


----------



## cinxxx

^^Being both members of the Schengen agreement, people can cross between these countries anytime, anywhere, without any problem


----------



## alserrod

And I suppose Police can cross for several kilometres the border if is running to catch someone of just checking around the border without controls.

At Schengen treaty countries these are normal "borders". You can find old control points but not used today. New streets, motorways, etc... are being built without any space for control points.


----------



## alserrod

MattiG said:


> 600 EUR? If I remember, the EU-regulated limit is 300 EUR in the non-air traffic in case of importing goods from non-EU countries.




Sorry, you are right.

300 EUR if land border and 430 EUR if plane or ship border... and applies also for goods from Canary islands, Ceuta and Melilla where they do not pay VAT and other taxes.

As far as I know, if packs are opened (so then not able to be sold) before crossing the border, it is duty free.

Anyway, by car, 5 people = 1500 EUR...




Edit.... official page
http://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEA...yola/Folletos_informativos/regviaje_11_10.pdf


----------



## bogdymol

alserrod said:


> And I suppose Police can cross for several kilometres the border if is running to catch someone of just checking around the border without controls.


If there is a police pursuit in country A they can cross the border into country B, but just for 30 km. When they approach the border crossing they have to announce the Schengen boureau in their country (A) that they are in a pursuit and approaching the border, and then the Schengen boureau in country A will announce the one from country B, and they will send a police patrol there to continue the chase in the country B. That's the agreement.

PS: Romania did an exercise with a cross-border pursuit few years ago with Hungary.


----------



## alserrod

bogdymol said:


> If there is a police pursuit in country A they can cross the border into country B, but just for 30 km. When they approach the border crossing they have to announce the Schengen boureau in their country (A) that they are in a pursuit and approaching the border, and then the Schengen boureau in country A will announce the one from country B, and they will send a police patrol there to continue the chase in the country B. That's the agreement.
> 
> PS: Romania did an exercise with a cross-border pursuit few years ago with Hungary.




Not necessary 30 km. Spain has a treaty with Portugal of 50 km and I think only 10 with France.

If a police is running away to catch someone and they cross the border, police can cross the border too with the following considerations:

- No more than distance approved (as I said, 50 km Portugal-Spain, what means entering from Spain until a lot of Portuguese territory and upside down)
- Advise the other country police as soon as possible
- If arrested, they have to give him to the other country police. They can ask for an international movement for arrested people... but they cannot arrest him and cross the border again.
- They cannot interrogate arrested people. Just arrest and giving to the other country police

And they are allowed to cross the border as many times as they need for borders controls. They will not make a control on road, but they can be making surveillance for possible delinquents.

Sometimes it is more effective to know who is the person you have to catch than making a 100% control.


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> Not necessary 30 km. Spain has a treaty with Portugal of 50 km and I think only 10 with France.
> 
> If a police is running away to catch someone and they cross the border, police can cross the border too with the following considerations:
> 
> - No more than distance approved (as I said, 50 km Portugal-Spain, what means entering from Spain until a lot of Portuguese territory and upside down)
> - Advise the other country police as soon as possible
> - If arrested, they have to give him to the other country police. They can ask for an international movement for arrested people... but they cannot arrest him and cross the border again.
> - They cannot interrogate arrested people. Just arrest and giving to the other country police
> 
> And they are allowed to cross the border as many times as they need for borders controls. They will not make a control on road, but they can be making surveillance for possible delinquents.
> 
> Sometimes it is more effective to know who is the person you have to catch than making a 100% control.


Italy: 10km Austria (roads), 20km Austria (motorways) and 30km Slovenia (roads and motorways).


----------



## bogdymol

I heard about 30 km, but maybe it's just an agreement between Romania and Hungary for the time after we join Schengen area.


----------



## Alex_ZR

italystf said:


> Why? Was difficult for foreign companies export there?
> Italians went to Yugoslavia to buy cheap fuel, cigarettes and meat.


In the early 1980s, shortly after Tito's death, Yugoslav dept was more than 20 billion dollars. Government decided to introduce savings measures like limiting import ("stabilisation"). There were shortages of oil, coffee and detergents. People smuggled coffee from abroad, mostly from Trieste.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Italy: 10km Austria (roads), 20km Austria (motorways) and *30km Slovenia (roads and motorways)*.


Damn, you can go all the way to the Croatian border. Perhaps you'll even be allowed to go to Croatia when it enters EU and Schengen.


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## parcdesprinces

del


----------



## Palance

I remember that we took so many coffee into Yugoslavia in the eighties (for familiy) that my clothes smelled like coffee for weeks. And I don't even like coffee


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## alserrod

Spain has canceled for some days the Schengen treaty with France because an international meeting at Barcelona. It applies (as far as I know) only to road borders, where they will apply controls.


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## bogdymol

Today I crossed the Schengen border at Battonya (Hungary) / Turnu (Romania) without beeing checked. They just waved us...


----------



## MrAkumana

alserrod said:


> Spain has canceled for some days the Schengen treaty with France because an international meeting at Barcelona. It applies (as far as I know) only to road borders, where they will apply controls.


Acording to newspapers it seems it will be limited the border crossings of the following major catalan roads: AP7 , N-2, N-260, N-152 (this one kind of absurd as it's located on the Puigcerda metro area, where there a LOT of secondary roads and street crossings which for sure won't have any control), C-38 and N-230.

Controls will be enforced beginning today's midnight until the midnight of May 4.


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## Verso

As far as I know, it's forbidden to cross the border outside official border crossings when the Schengen treaty is suspended for some time.


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## MrAkumana

Verso said:


> As far as I know, it's forbidden to cross the border outside official border crossings when the Schengen treaty is suspended for some time.


I'm not an expert, but I believe that every road border crossing it's official... the fact that the police decides to check just certain roads doesn't make the rest of the road crossings less official...


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## alserrod

Verso said:


> As far as I know, it's forbidden to cross the border outside official border crossings when the Schengen treaty is suspended for some time.




It is so absurd the situation... The police just will make checks and special controls in border roads near Barcelona.

Schengen treaty is canceled with France for several days but the controls will apply only to roads (not plane or ship) and only for someone near Barcelona...


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## Verso

MrAkumana said:


> I'm not an expert, but I believe that every road border crossing it's official... the fact that the police decides to check just certain roads doesn't make the rest of the road crossings less official...


I still remember which roads had official border crossings before our entry into Schengen, but you're right, who'd know all of them now? What about crossing the border on foot in the middle of a forest or something like that? That might be illegal.


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## alserrod

The GR-11 is a high-mountain trekking route that goes Atlantic to Mediterranean at Spain. There is a parallel route at France as well as a mix-route considered very-very high mountain trekking.

The GR-11 has this path











The route runs mainly in Spain but there are a few points (not indicated) where you enter France, and the own GR-11 crosses corner to corner Andorra

As an example, think how to go from Candanchu ski resort to Estanes lake without crossing the border


http://maps.google.es/?ll=42.786646,-0.557642&spn=0.034204,0.084543&t=h&z=14



PS. In the right down corner of the link there is an military camp. They cannot cross the border because any reason (and never, never with weapons). It is an advanced mountain military unit that make training in the Pyrenees.

They will rarely go to Estanes lake because they have to make a very long tour to avoid French territory.......


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## Spookvlieger

Nope, the road gets reduced to one lane and then you drive actually through the station at low speed. Trucks pass on an bypass road on the outside of the station.

Also at the border station near Tournai you pass at low speed on the outside of the station and at the one near Mons you drive straight through the station like in most of the old border station on highways and normal roads.


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## Road_UK

The one at Tournai is gone now, they have removed all the buildings. I cross that border regularly. The one at Rekkem I don´t remember, even though I went through there just before Christmas.


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## bogdymol

You asked for pics of non-Schengen border crossings... so here it is the border crossing between *Romania and Serbia at Stamora Moravita / Vrsac (map)*:

Comming from Romania...










Romanian checkpoint:










Between the 2 checkpoints there is this sign:










Serbian checkpoint:










Serbian speed limits:










I've recorded on camera the border crossing and I will publish it here after I will have time to edit the video.


----------



## brisavoine

A very interesting article in Paris Match magazine about the new bridge on the international border between France and Brazil. The title of the article, which literally means "Man walked from France to Brazil", is a funny wink at the famous comic-strip album _On a marché sur la Lune_ (literally "Man walked on the Moon", known in English as _Explorers on the Moon_, and in Portuguese as _Explorando a Lua_).










In the article we learn several interesting things, such as the new immigration route that has appeared from Haiti to France via Panama, Peru, then down the Amazone River and on to the bridge where Haitian immigrants ask the French border police for asylum in France. Apparently there are now about 1,500 Haitians near the bridge in Brazil, waiting to cross the bridge and ask for asylum in France. The article also explains how the bridge has solidified a border that until then was quite blurry in the mind of the local people, with the people in the Brazilian town of Oiapoque complaining about new restrictions and visas to reach the French shore, whereas in the past they could travel almost freely to the French shore. The article also reflects on the paranoia in French Guiana where people imagine that 180 million poor Brazilians are going to swarm French Guiana, while the Brazilian authorities in Oiapoque tell the journalist that the Brazilians these days are more likely to be affluent people flying to Paris and shopping in the ritzy Faubourg St Honoré than poor people trying to cross the French Guianese border.



> On a marché de la France au Brésil
> 
> Paris Match
> 14 janvier 2012
> 
> *Au bout de la Guyane, loin de tout, un pont magnifique relie deux forêts désertes en attendant... d’improbables voyageurs.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lorsqu’il se découpe enfin dans la brume et les vapeurs chaudes, coque élégante en suspension entre deux mondes, on songe d’emblée à « Fitzcarraldo ». A ces chimères dont l’Amazonie a toujours été grande pourvoyeuse et qui ne s’apprécient qu’à l’aune de leur démesure et de leur vanité. Le pont sur l’Oyapock, qui unit en un saisissant raccourci la France et le Brésil, appartient à ces épopées, à ces conquêtes aussi inutiles qu’indispensables. « Concrètement, humainement, économiquement, ce pont ne servira à rien », m’a prévenu, au départ de Cayenne, le chercheur Gérard Police, Guyanais depuis plus de trente ans et docteur en études brésiliennes. « Mais c’est un super outil diplomatique et géopolitique, un monument presque totémique destiné à être inauguré et célébré. »
> 
> L’inauguration, c’est justement là que le bât blesse. Il y a belle lurette que l’ouvrage proprement dit est terminé : le samedi 28 mai 2011, vers 22 h 30, les ouvriers de l’entreprise brésilienne Egesa, chargée de sa construction, ont opéré sans grand battage la jonction historique entre les deux tronçons du tablier. Pourtant, lors de sa prochaine visite en Guyane, le 21 janvier, Nicolas Sarkozy ne coupera pas, comme il en avait émis le vœu, le ruban ouvrant le passage vers un pays avec lequel nous partageons curieusement la plus longue frontière terrestre, plus de 700 kilomètres. La raison : pour qu’un pont fasse office de pont, encore faut-il qu’il soit raccordé à des routes dignes de ce nom. Or, si un ruban asphalté ondule bien sur les 200 kilomètres de forêt amazonienne entre Cayenne et Saint-Georges-de-l’Oyapock, notre ville frontière, côté Brésil, en revanche, la route menant à Macapa, seule ville d’importance, distante de 600 kilomètres, n’est sur une large portion qu’une simple piste mettant au supplice les dos comme les amortisseurs. « On peut comprendre que nos amis brésiliens aient souhaité n’inaugurer le pont que lorsqu’ils seront prêts, m’a confirmé Denis Labbé, le préfet de Guyane. D’après ce qu’ils m’ont dit, ils ont rencontré des problèmes de propriété foncière pour faire passer la route. Et maintenant que la saison des pluies a débuté, les travaux ne pourront démarrer qu’en juin. » En attendant une inauguration sans cesse reportée – le préfet évoque désormais le dernier trimestre 2012 –, la tentation est donc grande de prendre les devants. Et, sans la moindre modestie, de procéder soi-même à l’enjambement historique. Qui n’a, un jour, rêvé de faire le premier pas, de relier symboliquement la France et le séduisant Brésil, la vieille Europe et la fringante Amérique du Sud ?
> 
> On imagine repousser les frontières de l’imaginaire, entrer de plain-pied dans l’onirisme et, pourquoi pas, rencontrer des Indiens réducteurs de têtes : en guise de rite de passage, ce sont les policiers de la Police de l’air et des frontières (PAF), en tenue réglementaire, qui forment le comité d’accueil. Chaleureux, au demeurant. Même si le pont n’est pas ouvert à la circulation, le lieutenant Laurent Destenesse et le major Antoine Drouault ont reçu l’ordre, l’an dernier, d’abandonner les anciens bâtiments de Saint-Georges-de-l’Oyapock, la petite ville frontalière située à 6 kilomètres. Ils ont emménagé le 22 décembre avec leurs effectifs – 62 hommes et femmes, chiffre doublé en un an – dans les locaux construits à l’entrée de la plateforme. Ils y disposent d’un point de vue privilégié sur l’ouvrage, un pont à haubans de 378 mètres de long, suspendu entre deux pylônes culminant à 83 mètres. Une dizaine d’aubettes par lesquelles ne transite aucun porteur de visa, en gardent l’accès. Pour l’heure, c’est donc Fifille, une chienne bâtarde ayant adopté les policiers dès leur arrivée, qui en assure une surveillance débonnaire, sous l’œil intrigué de quelques paresseux et de serpents de passage. Il est probable que cette faune incontrôlable constituera longtemps l’essentiel du trafic. Car ce pont, dont la construction fut décidée en novembre 1997 lors d’une rencontre à Saint-Georges entre le président Chirac et son homologue Fernando Cardoso, a pour particularité de relier deux remarquables culs-de-sac : l’Etat d’Amapa, coupé par le delta de l’Amazone et qu’aucune route ne relie au reste du Brésil est au moins aussi éloignée des préoccupations de Brasilia que la Guyane de Paris. Les deux régions présentant en outre un profil parfaitement identique, on imagine mal une noria de camions transporter à grands frais de l’une ce qui fait sa principale richesse, le bois, que l’autre ne manquerait pas de lui renvoyer dès le lendemain, pour un coût tout aussi exorbitant.
> 
> [...]
> 
> http://www.parismatch.com/Actu-Match/Monde/Actu/On-a-marche-de-la-France-au-Bresil-370627/


----------



## brisavoine

Regarding the bridge proper, the article also tells us that it is fully completed, but that it sits idle because the Brazilian authorities have, to put it diplomatically, not been as diligent as the French authorities in building the access road to the bridge on their side of the border. Apparently they didn't properly evaluate the ownership of the land on their side of the border, so the building of the access road has been delayed, whereas on the French side the access road was completed already 2 years ago. The Brazilian should finally start building the access road this year after the end of the rainy season. The bridge is now scheduled to be opened to traffic in the last quarter of 2012, if the Brazilian access road is completed by then.


----------



## brisavoine

An interesting Brazilian video report which shows the bridge and the strikingly different situation on both sides of the border. For all the talks of an emerging Brazil, the contrast between First World and developping world is still quite crude around the bridge. At least that's what the Brazilian journalists focuss on here.

In the beginning of the video until 0:55 you can see the 516 km of road from Macapá (the capital of the Brazilian state of Amapá) to Oiapoque on the French border. The road is still not fully paved, but they are working on it as you can see in the video.

Then from 0:55 to 1:14 you can see the access road to the bridge which is still a dirt track. Then at 1:14 they arrive at the bridge proper.

At 2:59 they enter French territory (French side of the bridge).


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## ChrisZwolle

Long live Schengen.


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## Ingenioren

^ You mean EU. Ive seen trucks lining up the right lane from the Svinesund toll station (about 3km) - and we are in schengen.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Ingenioren said:


> ^ You mean EU. Ive seen trucks lining up the right lane from the Svinesund* toll station* (about 3km) - and we are in schengen.


There is you answer.

I do have seen trucks lined up at EU borders in the Schengen area but that is because in some countries they are not allowed to drive before and afther certain hours....

Btw if you take the A13/E313 towards Antwerp you can find a 50km line of only trucks in the slow lane... There are just so many trucks driving on that highway...


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## Corvinus

Speaking of Schengen?
Entering Germany coming from Schengen (L):


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## Nima-Farid

^^ lol :lol:


----------



## bogdymol

Corvinus said:


> Speaking of Schengen?
> Entering Germany coming from Schengen (L):


So you were in Schengen which is in Schengen, right?


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## Nima-Farid

lol good one :lol:
Shouldnt they change the name to something more in common with european countries? what do you think?


----------



## cougar1989

> Entering Germany coming from Schengen (L):


There is a video from me which is from the (D)-(L)-Border near Schengen at the Motorway A8.de / A13.lu




http://youtu.be/trqXu6bk6po


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## MattiG

Ingenioren said:


> ^ You mean EU. Ive seen trucks lining up the right lane from the Svinesund toll station (about 3km) - and we are in schengen.


It is rather a common misconception that the Schengen area would have something to do with the customs regulations.

There are several overlapping international treaties:

- The Schengen agreement: no routine passport controls within the area
- The European Customs Union: no duties at the internal borders
- The European VAT Area: the European system for value added taxes
- The European Economic Area: The extension to the EU internal market
- The Nordic Passport Union: Similar to the Schengen agreement but older and more liberal

Norway is a the member of the European Customs Union. Therefore, the border at Svinesund is the external border to the Customs Union, and the customs declarations apply to both directions.

The passenger cars are not exempt from the customs controls, but those take place seldom. If I recall, I have not been stopped at the Finnish-Norwegian border since about 1985.


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## Corvinus

MattiG said:


> The passenger cars are not exempt from the customs controls, but those take place seldom. If I recall, I have not been stopped at the Finnish-Norwegian border since about 1985.


Could you just pack the boot of your car full of alcohol in Sweden (Finland) and just carry it over to Norway with no serious risk of getting caught?
Is this a widespread practice with "shopping tourists" from Norway?


----------



## MattiG

Corvinus said:


> Could you just pack the boot of your car full of alcohol in Sweden (Finland) and just carry it over to Norway with no serious risk of getting caught?
> Is this a widespread practice with "shopping tourists" from Norway?


I do not know how keen the Norwegian customs authorities are to catch the Norwegian redidents transporting booze. Anyway, buying cheap goods in Finland and Sweden is a common hobby.

The northernmost alcohol sales point in the EU lies in a tiny Finnish village Nuorgam at the Norwegian border. More than 90% of the stuff is sold to Norwegians. Because of that shop, the sales of alcohol in the municipality of Utsjoki is 53 litres absolute alcohol per inhabitant per year while the country average being 8 litres. This indicates the risk to be caugh being rather low.

After opening the shop in Nuorgam, the sales in the Vinmonopolet alcohol shop in Vadsø at the Norwegian side dropped by 35%.


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## Road_UK

Norwegians buy their booze in Sweden, the Swedish in Denmark, and the Danish in Germany...


----------



## Surel

Road_UK said:


> Norwegians buy their booze in Sweden, the Swedish in Denmark, and the Danish in Germany...


we could go on. The germans in Czech Republic or Poland, the Czechs in Slovakia, Polish in Belarus, Slovaks in Ukraine...

I just dont think that the Russians go to Japan to buy there sake . It may be though that the Japanese go to USA for cheaper alcohol... lol


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## Spookvlieger

Everyone overhere buys fuel, cigs and booze in Luxemburg


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> Unfortunatelly, thanks to a couple of Romanians that go to western Europe just to gain some fast money from illegal activities, all of the honest Romanians have to suffer.


You're right and I know how you feel too, Italians had (have?) lots of troubles for the same reason. Unfortunately, more than "a couple" of Romanians go west for this reason (as well as more than "a couple" Italians went abroad for the same reason).




Road_UK said:


> Because it´s funny.


Fortunately I never got stopped during my year in Germany, otherwise it could have probably happened. I know a guy who spent the night at the Police station for saying something like that...


----------



## KONSTANTINOUPOLIS

_Nike Florina (Hellas) - FYROM_























































www.makedomiki.gr


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## hofburg

^EU founds?


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## Surel

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Dutch are drug dealers. All of them.


Not only the Dutch, anyone thats driving from NL through Germany . Funny though, my most throughout check was done by the Czech police... but yeah, coming from NL. I was checked trhee times that day. Twice by Germans and once by the Czechs. The Germans wanted to see only my passport, but the czech police dog didnt like my luggage.... I though, maybe all that cheese inside confused him, but the police said, that he should not be confused by that. Well I guess they were either training, or the dog was no good.


----------



## Verso

hofburg said:


> whats the situation in Switzerland? I took tgv Paris - Geneva and they were just looking at us at Geneva train station.


I haven't been to CH since it entered Schengen, but the Italian- and French-speaking Swiss are relaxed, while the German-speaking Swiss are complicated. Once I was smuggling some good Slovenian salamis from Austria into Switzerland (because the Swiss don't have them) and they discovered them.


----------



## Robi_damian

Road_UK said:


> Yes, well there is a valid reason for that. The amount of Romanian gangs that cross that border, with the purpose of committing crime in mainly Austria, Italy and Spain got totally out of control.


That has nothing to do with borders. The fact that Romania has (and has always had) very low crime rates means that the responsability for these crime surges is the wishy-washy aproach to crime in AT, IT and E and most of Western Europe.


----------



## piotr71

Road_UK said:


> It´s the English reg. A lot of attempted drug trafficking as well as the astronomical price of cigarettes in the UK make British registered vehicles one of the most loved targets for customs officials throughout Europe.


I have never noticed. I am in transportation business for years and drive around Europe a lot using various countries number plates (PL,D, NL,GB). Never had any particular issues with GB reg. Yes, they halted my GB registered car in Eastern France just to ask about the reason of my visit in France. Then the Germans checked the car's log and my driving licence near Bautzen(Bydysin). That's just about the same when using PL, D plates in Europe, however I must admit that NL regs attract much more attention from any customs anywhere. 



> Also a lot of Eastern Europeans drive British registered vehicles, and tour around Europe without any insurance. (..)


How did you know that?

I like reading your posts cause you have undeniably huge European driving experience. Though, there is a certain issue with some of your statements. For instance; some time ago I read that Eastern European(Polish) couriers' businesses are not as much reliable as yours, British. Hmm? I know some of them from both countries and can't say they differ in any way. Actually, negligence is rather part of British way of working, than any others. 

Then, we hear about not insured, GB registered cars driving by Eastern Europeans around old good Western Europe. Hmmm, again. 

What's the size of the chip on your shoulder, mate?


Edit: have you got a night cab at last?


----------



## Attus

What really surprised me about Swiss border control was out of Switzerland. I crossed the Rhine on the bridge between St. Louis (FR) and Weil (D) and I was stopped and checked for passport control by a German and a Swiss border officer. OK, Switzerland is only 1.5 km away, but I've never been checked by an officer of a third nation at any border station. 
Of course cars having a D/CH/F plate were not forced to stop, but my Hungarian plate made them suspect me. I was asked what I had done in France and hearing my answer about photographing trains the officer requested to show the camera and checked if there are really photos about trains in that. 

However, about an hour later I crossed the German - Swiss border by a train withouth any checks. Halting at Basel Badischer Bahnhof* I was informed that for travelling on I need papers that allow me to cross the border but actually those papers were not checked by any one.

* Station Basel Bad is in Swiss territory but belongs to German Raiways (DB) and travellers have been allowed to use that station to change trains without passport for more than a century. Your documents are (were) checked by leaving the station either by foot or by train (directing Switzerland).


----------



## Robi_damian

Attus said:


> What really surprised me about Swiss border control was out of Switzerland. I crossed the Rhine on the bridge between St. Louis (FR) and Weil (D) and I was stopped and checked for passport control by a German and a Swiss border officer. OK, Switzerland is only 1.5 km away, but I've never been checked by an officer of a third nation at any border station.
> Of course cars having a D/CH/F plate were not forced to stop, but my Hungarian plate made them suspect me. I was asked what I had done in France and hearing my answer about photographing trains the officer requested to show the camera and checked if there are really photos about trains in that.
> 
> However, about an hour later I crossed the German - Swiss border by a train withouth any checks. Halting at Basel Badischer Bahnhof* I was informed that for travelling on I need papers that allow me to cross the border but actually those papers were not checked by any one.
> 
> * Station Basel Bad is in Swiss territory but belongs to German Raiways (DB) and travellers have been allowed to use that station to change trains without passport for more than a century. Your documents are (were) checked by leaving the station either by foot or by train (directing Switzerland).


Was this in the past few years? I also heard that sometimes Swiss guards do stop cars, even after entering Schengen. Obviously, no pass check, just questions and the sort.


----------



## Attus

Robi_damian said:


> Was this in the past few years?


Exactly August 5 2009.


----------



## hofburg

Verso said:


> I haven't been to CH since it entered Schengen, but the Italian- and French-speaking Swiss are relaxed, while the German-speaking Swiss are complicated. Once I was smuggling some good Slovenian salamis from Austria into Switzerland (because the Swiss don't have them) and they discovered them.


is salami illegal in Switzerland? :lol:


----------



## Verso

hofburg said:


> is salami illegal in Switzerland? :lol:


No, but I had too many of them.


----------



## alserrod

Attus said:


> What really surprised me about Swiss border control was out of Switzerland. I crossed the Rhine on the bridge between St. Louis (FR) and Weil (D) and I was stopped and checked for passport control by a German and a Swiss border officer. OK, Switzerland is only 1.5 km away, but I've never been checked by an officer of a third nation at any border station.
> Of course cars having a D/CH/F plate were not forced to stop, but my Hungarian plate made them suspect me. I was asked what I had done in France and hearing my answer about photographing trains the officer requested to show the camera and checked if there are really photos about trains in that.



Interesting. 

Does anyone know more cases of a control outside borders?


----------



## Road_UK

piotr71 said:


> I have never noticed. I am in transportation business for years and drive around Europe a lot using various countries number plates (PL,D, NL,GB). Never had any particular issues with GB reg. Yes, they halted my GB registered car in Eastern France just to ask about the reason of my visit in France. Then the Germans checked the car's log and my driving licence near Bautzen(Bydysin). That's just about the same when using PL, D plates in Europe, however I must admit that NL regs attract much more attention from any customs anywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> How did you know that?
> 
> I like reading your posts cause you have undeniably huge European driving experience. Though, there is a certain issue with some of your statements. For instance; some time ago I read that Eastern European(Polish) couriers' businesses are not as much reliable as yours, British. Hmm? I know some of them from both countries and can't say they differ in any way. Actually, negligence is rather part of British way of working, than any others.
> 
> Then, we hear about not insured, GB registered cars driving by Eastern Europeans around old good Western Europe. Hmmm, again.
> 
> What's the size of the chip on your shoulder, mate?
> 
> 
> Edit: have you got a night cab at last?


In some Eastern European countries, mainly Poland, Lithuania and Romania, people go out to the UK and buy scrapped vehicles. They either drive them back themselves, or they are being put on trailers for shipment to their own countries, leaving the UK numberplate on. Once they are done up, they are back on the road again. Now, my understanding is that in Poland you cannot import a RHD and have Polish numberplates on them. So people leave the UK plates on. So how does one insure a vehicle in Poland with a foreign plate on? If you look around in Dover, while you are waiting for the ferry, you will see that a lot of drivers of UK registered vehicles don´t speak any English. Also, driving around in Poland and Lithuania, like I do sometimes, you will find an enormous amount of UK registered vehicles on the road, some of them parked at factories. British people intend to take their cars to France or Spain, where they enjoy their holidays most, they normally don´t go on holidays on industrial estates around Vilnius. 

About my comment about Polish express drivers: You know as well as I do that the cost of fuel is rising out of the pan at the moment. And as wages and margins are a lot lower in Poland, then in western countries, filling your van up in Germany is the equivalent of a Brit buying a villa in Marbella. So they drive slooooow, seldom exceeding their speeds by 100 km/h. My boss doesn´t like that. We are a European EXPRESS delivering company, and while I got a lot of respect for my Polish colleagues, sometimes it just doesn´t work. And even though a lot of Polish companies and owner drivers have resulted to undercutting in the west, as they are a lot cheaper, there are still companies out there who won´t go down that road. Thank God for that, as there wouldn´t be any British, Dutch, German or French drivers left...


----------



## Surel

^^

There are more than half milion Poles in GB...

Green card insurance is valid throughout the Europe.

You can buy transport insurance, in fact it is obligatory. You would have to provide with some accident rate/police checks statistics of polish cars on European roads without insurance.


Hopefully the EU is not a package from which you would pick only sultanas and leave the rest inside, though ppl/nations try that all the time.


----------



## Suburbanist

I've driven dozens of thousand of kms in Europe, always on cars. 

So far, I've been checked by police only a few times. aMong them:

1) Andorra-Spain border station. The Spanish had spotted a bag from a store in Andorra where I had bought winter clothing and they asked me if I had bought arms or munition (I realized it was also a hunting store)

2) Liechtenstein-Austria border. I was moving to The Netherlands, had some packed boxes of used books and the official demanded me to open them  

3) random city roadblock in Stuttgart 3am. They had military-style personnel doing the checks with heavy weaponry. Scary but fast.

4) Gilze-Rijen NATO air base perimeter road. I was joyriding at 40km/h late at night around the base, just killing time and burning gas honestly, and I was stopped by a car with 2 soldiers who asked if I had any problems or if I was lost.


----------



## Road_UK

Surel said:


> ^^
> 
> There are more than half milion Poles in GB...
> 
> Green card insurance is valid throughout the Europe.
> 
> You can buy transport insurance, in fact it is obligatory. You would have to provide with some accident rate/police checks statistics of polish cars on European roads without insurance.
> 
> 
> Hopefully the EU is not a package from which you would pick only sultanas and leave the rest inside, though ppl/nations try that all the time.


You are not reading my posts properly. There is no point answering to yours, I´d only be repeating myself. Nobody has said anything about Polish cars. And you can only insure vehicles in a country from where it is registered.


----------



## piotr71

Road_UK said:


> In some Eastern European countries, mainly Poland, Lithuania and Romania, people go out to the UK and buy scrapped vehicles. They either drive them back themselves, or they are being put on trailers for shipment to their own countries, leaving the UK numberplate on. Once they are done up, they are back on the road again. Now, my understanding is that in Poland you cannot import a RHD and have Polish numberplates on them. So people leave the UK plates on. So how does one insure a vehicle in Poland with a foreign plate on?


Not many importers of British cars would bring them to Poland by themselves. It's much cheaper to load them up on a trailer and ship them in. Not many of them (importers) would risk driving across Europe without cover. 

So, let me make it clear why some would bring a British car to Poland:

1. 95% of GB registered cars belong to Poles living and working in the UK. They are insured, taxed and mot-ed. Mostly bought with finance in the region of 7000 pounds. Polish people usually purchase quite modern and fresh models just to show up how good living in Britain is and how quickly they succeeded in the foreign land. A car is still matter of prestige in Poland.

Why these cars are so common on Polish roads? As we all know, Poles are not rare sight in Britain and as people bonded to certain traditions most of us need to visit our families several times a year. And trust me, it's unimaginable amount of travellers going up and down every day. 

2. 5% - Trade. Almost all imported British cars will be broken and sold for parts. Some of them will get a steering wheel on the correct side and will be driven by proud and happy Polishmen.




> If you look around in Dover, while you are waiting for the ferry, you will see that a lot of drivers of UK registered vehicles don´t speak any English.


I don't use English either while talking to another Pole, even in we have a chat in Dover's ferry terminal  



> Also, driving around in Poland and Lithuania, like I do sometimes, you will find an enormous amount of UK registered vehicles on the road, some of them *parked at factories.*


Apart from what I have written by now, some Easterners alongside a regular job in the UK run their own business in countries of origin. I visited many places (GB plated) in Poland and Slovakia which would not be taken as attractive by British holidaymaker, nor even Polish .

One more word about insurance. There is a Polish branch of A-plan broker who does not mind insure UK registered cars by phone call from Poland.



> About my comment about Polish express drivers: You know as well as I do that the cost of fuel is rising out of the pan at the moment. And as wages and margins are a lot lower in Poland, then in western countries, filling your van up in Germany is the equivalent of a Brit buying a villa in Marbella. So they drive slooooow, seldom exceeding their speeds by *100 km/h*.


Yes I agree, they rather crawl than drive.


----------



## Road_UK

Thank you for clearing a few things up, but if they genuinely live in Britain (a lot of them do, agree) then the least they can do when they take their vehicles abroad, is to leave their tax-discs on. 

There are a lot of Brits living here in Mayrhofen, and they keep their British registered cars, because it is cheaper then in Austria. But they have a home address in the UK, where they can keep them insured. Tax disc is a different matter, Austrians are not interested in British tax discs.


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## Surel

Road_UK said:


> You are not reading my posts properly. There is no point answering to yours, I´d only be repeating myself. Nobody has said anything about Polish cars. And you can only insure vehicles in a country from where it is registered.


I should have written cars diven by Poles with whatever plate they have. By polish I meant that they belong to a polish citizen.

If you have GB plate, you are registered in GB, if you are registered in GB you have to be insured, if you are insured in GB you are insured in the whole EU. Read this

Since there is more than half milion Poles in GB and most of them drive a car it is only logical that you will se many of them in Dover, as well as many of them in Poland, since they are seasonal workers. They may as well reside in the UK and spend substantial part of the year in Poland. When you go to Romania you will see many Italian plates because of the same reasons.

As for the second.

Poland face charges at the EU Court of justice for not allowing registering of RHD vehicles. It doesnt really mean that vehicles registered in GB by Polish residing in PL are not insured. They are just insured in GB where they are also registered, MOT done, TAX paid. The only thing that those drivers face is a fine from Polish authorities for not having registered their car in their country of residence.

Its the same like if I took my car registered in the CZ and used it in NL where I reside without having it registered there. The only thing I face is fine from NL authorities. The insurance is valid.


Therefore I asked about a statistic about the accidents when the cars with polish drivers and GB plates were not covered by an insurance.


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> I've driven dozens of thousand of kms in Europe, always on cars.
> 
> So far, I've been checked by police only a few times. aMong them:
> 
> 1) Andorra-Spain border station. The Spanish had spotted a bag from a store in Andorra where I had bought winter clothing and they asked me if I had bought arms or munition (I realized it was also a hunting store)



They will ask you a random bag to be checked. They stop all the cars (I had only one case that had so many cars that not all of them where stopped). 
For avoiding smuggling, except if they suspect about you, looking one random bag they know that it doesn't worth to make it.

I have been never asked for passport, neither at Andorra or Spain (exit and enter).

Once the Andorran police stopped me when entering and checked the only little bag I had and asked me the reason of the visit (it was business... but I found stupid the question as far as more than 99% visits are for tourism... and I could say I were going to visit a friend but I had the hotel in the Spanish side)


----------



## Attus

My funniest check was in 1998, SLO-H border, Hodoš-Őrihodos. I had a Lada 1200s then. We had an across Europe tour with one friend, actually arriving home from Italy - Slovenia. We had no money so we spent several nights in the car during this trip. Before arriving to this border station, the recent four or fives days we lived in the car so you can imagine what a mess we had there  
The guard started to check our bags. Pointed one and asked: what do you have in that bag. Actually I had no idea  I opened the bag and found 3 pairs of used, dirty socks inside, having been there for almost a week. He asked for another bag which, too, I had no idea about. Opened, found some tinned foot that tripped around Europe together with us.
The guard let us go on


----------



## cinxxx

^^
:lol:


----------



## bogdymol

I remembered one thing: back in the '90s, short time after Romanians got permission to have passports and go abroad there were very long queues at the border crossings to Hungary. There they checked everything they could, but also were denying many people to cross for reasons like "your car is too dirty"... :nuts:


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## Road_UK

They tried to stop me going into the Czech Republic once, before it joined Schengen, because I had a crack in my windscreen. They turned me around, so I just went to a different border crossing.


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## Corvinus

German -> Swiss border, some months ago. Around 11 p.m., crossing is empty, mine is the only car approaching it (trucks are a different issue...). Guard is standing there. I have some boxes of German supermarket food and a used bicycle in the car.

- "Do you import any goods"?
- "No, just food within the allowance of CHF 300,-. No raw meat." (_They like to ask for it ... _)
- "Do you bring other kind of meat?"
- "Some salami and so ... 1-2kg in total"
- "Do you bring alcoholic beverages?"
- "a six-pack of beer..."
- "Do you bring cigarettes?"
- "No"
- "The bicycle is old?"
- "Yes, used."
- "Your ID, please" _give it to him._
- "Please pull over to the right and just wait"
- _waiting for some minutes_
- "Please open the boot" _open it, he's touching some of the food packages. Then he opens two other doors and looks inside. Then, hands back ID._
- "Have a nice trip, bye ..."

During all this time, no other vehicle crossed the border after me


----------



## AsianDragons

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1511295

cambodia/laos international border crossing at Stung Treng and Champassack provinces


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## g.spinoza

At the Swiss-Austrian border in Lustenau about a year ago there were two female young officers chatting excitedly like teenagers. I stopped and they waved me out with a certain degree of annoyance, I was interrupting their conversation about Johnny Depp or whatever.


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## hofburg

Verso said:


> No, but I had too many of them.



lol, how many of them did you have? (and which?  )


----------



## bogdymol

hofburg said:


> (and which?  )


----------



## tonylondon

what does pula means in rumanian???


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Ask google


----------



## italystf

double post please delete


----------



## italystf

bogdymol said:


> ^^ Ask google


Or browse randomly the H&A section. It had already been mentioned dozen of times. :lol:


----------



## hofburg

romanian jokes  I am sure Verso didn't transport such salami, but more like hungarian, or some salami from domestic farms.


----------



## alserrod

Attus said:


> My funniest check was in 1998, SLO-H border, Hodoš-Őrihodos. I had a Lada 1200s then. We had an across Europe tour with one friend, actually arriving home from Italy - Slovenia. We had no money so we spent several nights in the car during this trip. Before arriving to this border station, the recent four or fives days we lived in the car so you can imagine what a mess we had there
> The guard started to check our bags. Pointed one and asked: what do you have in that bag. Actually I had no idea  I opened the bag and found 3 pairs of used, dirty socks inside, having been there for almost a week. He asked for another bag which, too, I had no idea about. Opened, found some tinned foot that tripped around Europe together with us.
> The guard let us go on



Similar to me at Hendaye (F), after a night on the train not sleeping and two big baggages. First of them with my clothes and books of student and second with some food (there area somethings you cannot find away and try to carry).
My impression shouldn't be the best... and they asked me to open the first baggage. I opened it and the first thing they saw was some technical books of a French university. They looked more and only clothes.

I do not know what would it happen if they open the second baggage. It was all food, but closed (bought in a supermarket and not open). It was not too many quantity but I do not know the maximum to import in France and if some restrictions...


----------



## alserrod

Corvinus said:


> - *"Your ID, please" give it to him*_._
> - "Please pull over to the right and just wait"
> - _waiting for some minutes_




Should you are in Spain, they will never ask for that. Other case is that we will GIVE the ID card, passport or any identification document is considered as PERSONAL and UNTRANSFERABLE.

This is... they will ask you to SHOW it, you are on your right to take in your hand, show as much time as they need to look it or copy any data, turn it to see the other side and never leaving your hand.

With police... obviously is better not to discuss about this... but they will ask you only to show, not to give it.

I had, once, a discussion in a post office because the postmand asked me for the ID card. I showed and he told me I had to give him. I said that I wouldn't, I just show. The desk was not dessigned to see the ID easily... but it was not my problem... they should have to start solving any problem

In Spain the ID card can be never retired by the police and the passport only by a judge, as well as the driving licence.
If someones takes your ID and do not gives you, he can take a problem... and this will apply also when you pay with a credit card in a restaurant. Most of them looks your ID and leave in the table. Should they take with the card and return later can have a problem if the ID is dissapeared.


----------



## the Ludovico center

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Dutch are drug dealers. All of them.





Surel said:


> Not only the Dutch, anyone thats driving from NL through Germany


It not only happens at the border but deep outside Holland: for example when you are on an international train originally departing from Amsterdam, you'll likely get lots of hustle and hinder due to armed police scrambling on board your train at some city nowhere near the Dutch border (this is _before _passengers are allowed to get out at that station) and of course the nasty looking dogs who go under your leg and sniff around everything while you're sitting there and crossing your fingers that they will not take a bite out of your legs :lol:


----------



## Road_UK

You are likely to get stopped by customs anywhere in Germany and France now. In Germany I got stopped for example at Mannheim, Hannover, Heilbronn and Nürnberg. In France in the middle of Lille, Lyon, Rouen, Bordeaux-first peage towards Paris, Metz and then all the borders with Switzerland, Germany, Luxembourg, Belgium, Spain, at Calais and the entrance to the Mont Blanc tunnel. The French are ok though, you can have a laugh and a joke with them, unlike the Germans, who always got that we will gas you look in their eyes...


----------



## garethni

Once, crossing the Liechtenstein/Austrian border we were examined by the Swiss customs people. The boy doing the inspection was extremely young and maybe a trainee. He was really confused when he saw the steering lock and had to ask what it was! Such innocence.


----------



## Godius

Yes and these trailer trash people are despised by normal dutch citizens because the Dutch state has special taxation agreements with the residents of the trailer camps. In the end they only pay for about 5 - 10 % tax (referring to Vinkenslag: Maastricht)


----------



## italystf

Godius said:


> Yes and these trailer trash people are despised by normal dutch citizens because the Dutch state has special taxation agreements with the residents of the trailer camps. In the end they only pay for about 5 - 10 % tax (referring to Vinkenslag: Maastricht)


Are they well integrated into the society and usually do honest jobs or are they a problem like Rumanian gypsies?


----------



## Godius

They aren't that big of a problem, mostly they do shady business. But the police forces are turning a blind eye because the state is not very ethical in getting money from the citizens so they don't monitor them but just make tax agreements (to, at least, get a profit from their shady businesses).


----------



## Verso

I don't know of anyone living in a trailer (except gypsies). Where do you even get such data?


----------



## Road_UK

He probably saw a film about trailer ******** in the US, and though it would be a good idea to have some trailer trash of his own in Holland who travel to Poland to buy fireworks...


----------



## Godius

Verso said:


> I don't know of anyone living in a trailer (except gypsies). Where do you even get such data?


Just be glad you don't have them in your country. Not that they are causing a lot of trouble but they aren't making a honest buck most of the time. There aren't much of them either, trailer camps in the Netherlands are situated around the bigger cities.

They are indeed, in own country, mostly known of their second hand car sales.


----------



## Road_UK

Godius said:


> but they aren't making a honest buck most of the time. .


:rofl:


----------



## Godius

Road_UK said:


> :rofl:


In Dutch we call them 'Kampers'. A derogatory term for trailer park residents. :lol:


----------



## Road_UK

I´m sorry, but it is kind of funny. First you come up with 


Godius said:


> Lot's of Dutch trailer trash guys go to Poland every summer to store loads of fireworks in their VW-transporters and sell it in the Netherlands.


...to which I replied amongst other things:


Road_UK said:


> I think he got it out of a movie or something. Dutch people intend to pretend they are Americans at times...


And in response to Verso:



Road_UK said:


> He probably saw a film about trailer ******** in the US, and though it would be a good idea to have some trailer trash of his own in Holland who travel to Poland to buy fireworks...


And subsequently you come up with:



Godius said:


> but they aren't making a honest buck most of the time. .


So maybe they are both Dutch-American trailer trash from Arizona but now in Maastricht, because the last time I checked, Holland was still in the Euro, and they have received an invitation from the States to join the US$ instead...


----------



## Godius

Don't be frustrated with the fact that uk is losing cultural influence in europe and the rest of the world.


----------



## Road_UK

Actually I´m Dutch...


----------



## Godius

Road_UK said:


> Actually I´m Dutch...


Then you should know that we have Kampers all over the Netherlands, from Friesland to Limburg. They are very much comparable with trailer trash.


----------



## Road_UK

Godius said:


> Then you should know that we have Kampers all over the Netherlands, from Friesland to Limburg. They are very much comparable with trailer trash.


Bullshit. The only trailer trash that Holland produces are the ones who are blocking the roads in Europe with their caravans in the summer season...


----------



## Godius

Road_UK said:


> Bullshit. The only trailer trash that Holland produces are the ones who are blocking the roads in Europe with their caravans in the summer season...


Those people aren't called Kampers but KAASKOPPEN, :lol::rofl:


----------



## Road_UK

I get called that here in Austria sometimes. But it helps being both British and Dutch (got a Dutch passport, lived in the UK before I moved here, my dad is English) 
It´s one of the few Dutch words they know. You can always recognize them, they are loud, drive badly, and if they don´t speak German, they will speak English with a very bad attempted Robert de Niro accent...


----------



## italystf

@ Road UK
You must accept that American slang words are used extensively to describe similar situation in other countries. White trash mean a certain kind of people who you can find in every country and bucks is a slang for money, in whatever currency they are, not just USD.

@moderators:
This off topic discussion should be moved to the RRA and not deleted like the recent discussion about WWII on this thread.


----------



## Road_UK

italystf said:


> @ Road UK
> You must accept that American slang words are used extensively to describe similar situation in other countries. White trash mean a certain kind of people who you can find in every country and bucks is a slang for money, in whatever currency they are, not just USD.
> 
> @moderators:
> This off topic discussion should be moved to the RRA and not deleted like the recent discussion about WWII on this thread.


Alternatively you could say money and people living in trailers. Also nicer for people who are not familiar with American slang. Besides that, we are in Europe.


----------



## Surel

Road_UK said:


> Alternatively you could say money and people living in trailers. Also nicer for people who are not familiar with American slang. Besides that, we are in Europe.



"people living in trailers" has different semantic meaning than "trailer trash", same goes with the money versus buck.

If you mind the meaning, say it directly...


----------



## Spookvlieger

There are more Belgians living in trailerparks then Dutch I think. Especially in the provinces of Antwerp and Limburg. But they are not neccesairly poor people or scum and those trailers can be quite luxurious and most of the time people have structures build on to them making them bigger...


----------



## Chun123

This is Paso de las Damas between Argentina and Chile. No road, just for 4X4 vehicles. 
It lies 3560mt a.s.l., but there is no border patrol or anything. Just the mark sign.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ How are relationships between South American countries regarding borders? I remember Bolivia and Chile relationships were not so friendly...


----------



## Chun123

Here it is another one of the world's highest border crossings. It is Paso Internacional Agua Negra (Black Water) between Argentina and Chile. This is a non paved road crossing, and it lies at 4780 mt a.s.l. It is in the middle af the Andes, and it's frozen almost hole year.


----------



## gattone

Surel said:


> It is a offence to drive a car with a crack in the windshield in CZ.


The same is said about giving or taking bribes. And? :lol:


----------



## Chun123

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ How are relationships between South American countries regarding borders? I remember Bolivia and Chile relationships were not so friendly...


There is a lifetime dispute between Chile and Bolivia about bolivia's acces to the pacific ocean. Bolivia used to have it, a long time ago. But after the Copper War between these countries, Chile reclaimed that land and Bolivia remains until today as a landloked country. But maybe if there is a chilean friend, he will explain that much better for us.


----------



## Surel

gattone said:


> The same is said about giving or taking bribes. And? :lol:


Bribing is a crime, not an offence... . 

I guess not everywhere it is an offence to drive with a cracked windshield. In the czech law is that offence for a crack bigger than 2 cm. It apperas that its not everywhere the same... (e.g. http://www.truckfanclub.be/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2358). One of my Dutch friends suprised me, driving with 30 cm long crack in his windshield quite some time, even passing APK...


----------



## italystf

Surel said:


> Bribing is a crime, not an offence... .
> 
> I guess not everywhere it is an offence to drive with a cracked windshield. In the czech law is that offence for a crack bigger than 2 cm. It apperas that its not everywhere the same... (e.g. http://www.truckfanclub.be/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2358). One of my Dutch friends suprised me, driving with 30 cm long crack in his windshield quite some time, even passing APK...


My mother's car has a long crack on the lower side of its windshield for 3 - 4 years. When she took her car for the mandatory technical inspection they said that she doesn't need to replace it because it's not dangerous and it wouldn't break completely. Probably this crack is related to a confrontation with our previous neighboor.


----------



## alserrod

Chun123 said:


> This is Paso de las Damas between Argentina and Chile. No road, just for 4X4 vehicles.
> It lies 3560mt a.s.l., but there is no border patrol or anything. Just the mark sign.




Thanks.


Can you tell further about the Cristo Redentor de los Alpes border?
It is a little higher. I've read some articles about but do not know the full History.


----------



## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ How are relationships between South American countries regarding borders? I remember Bolivia and Chile relationships were not so friendly...



Bolivia-Chile, bad... rest of them, it is not Schengen but borders can be crossed without many problems.

Maybe the most interenting point is this:










There is no bridge Paraguay-Argentina so any journey means crossing Brazil in one or other way... just for a few kilometres (but enough to have two border checks).

The Paraguayan city near Brazil is an almost duty free city... and Brazilian controls are strong there. So then there are little ships to go to Argentina by the river avoiding the Brazilian territory.

In fact, due that it is in the middle of a big forest and mainly with some greats rivers as border, there are not too many road borders PY-AR (but possible to cross by ship).


The most surprising thing is that... Bolivia has a navy army. It is small (about 100 people in the army) and being the poorest country in South America, no citizen ask about that "service". They consider it important. They believe that one day they will have sea again.

I read an article about it. They have some small ships in the Titicaca lake where they make the training. That can include to swim in that lake which is hardly cold and can cause several illness.

After one year training, they go for practices about another day to an army ship in the Ocean of any "friendly neighbour country". This is... any one except Chile: Peru, Argentina, Uruguay (it is not neighbour but close to), Brazil... and stay with its army for that period.


----------



## Chun123

*Paso Cristo Redentor Argentina-Chile*

Ok, let´s talk about the "Cristo Redentor Pass" between Argentina and Chile. For sure the busiest bordercross between these countries, cause it links Buenos Aires and Santiago de Chile. Also the Atlantic to the Pacific. It lies at 3200 mt a.s.l., and it is 3 km long. There is also a rail connection a couple of meters away, but it has been closed for at least 50 years. Due to it's altitude, it is very difficult to go thru it in winter. So in winter we can find several kilometers of trucks stucked under the snow of the andes. Thanksfully, it is so cold, that the cargo keeps refrigerated. But also the truckers. The sightseeing is really nice, going thru the Andes mountains and passing just by the Aconcagua, the tallest mountain in Southamerica. Here you have some pictures:

The argentinian sideof the tunnel:









The chilean side:









Inside the tunnel:









The Cristo Redentor Monument (4200 mt a.s.l.) that gives it's name:

















The tunnel closed in winter (there could be more than 2500 trucks each side waiting for reopening) 

































The road in Chile:









The forgotten rail and station:

















El Cerro Aconcagua (6962mt)









Hope you enjoyed it.


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## Road_UK

I did, thank you. How long do these trucks normally have to wait before they open the tunnel? Probably a long time, judging by the amount...


----------



## keokiracer

^^ Very nice kay: :cheers:

is it here? (Gmaps)


----------



## Verso

You forgot:


----------



## Road_UK

Maggie Thatcher will love you...


----------



## cinxxx

^^Very nice

Border crossing Germany - Austria -> http://goo.gl/maps/iwY9

Still in Germany

DE_St2125 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_St2125 by cinxxx, on Flickr

Austria

AUT_B130 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B130 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B130 by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## Road_UK

UK to tackle Spain about long queues
Tuesday, 22 May 2012 16:51









According to the Gibraltar press, Britain is to complain to Spain about the three-hour- long queues motorists had to endure to cross the border on Sunday. The official Spanish version was that the Guardia Civil were searching for contraband tobacco – which they do most days without holding up the traffic too much. However, the feeling in Gib is that Sunday’s queues had something to do with Chief Minister Fabian Picardo’s appearance on Spanish television the night before.

Mr Picardo had been invited by Telecinco to participate in a debate to explain Gibraltar’s crackdown on Spanish fishing vessels in its water but the programme did little more than highlight just how little the Spanish know about the Rock and how the Spanish press goes out of its way to misrepresent anything to do with Gibraltar. The Spanish daily La Razon had Gibraltar on a war footing last week, showing a helicopter allegedly monitoring the Spanish fishing boats when in fact the photo was of a helicopter crew practising in Hampshire for the Queen's Diamond Jubilee celebrations last weekend. Other Spanish newspapers claimed that the Royal Navy was being sent in to keep the Spanish boats away.

After a period of relatively peaceful relations under the Socialist government, the current Partido Popular government is taking a much harder line on anything to do with Gibraltar, as the events of the last week show.

Last Wednesday, the Interior Ministry said it was prepared to send Guardia Civil escorts out with fishing vessels in the disputed waters, which it claimed were not ceded to Britain with Gibraltar and Menorca as part of the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht. Agriculture Minister Miguel Arias Cañete said on Thursday that the escorts had gone into action and as a result the Spanish fleet was able to fish “in complete normality”. However, El Pais newspaper reported that it had not been able to confirm that the Guardia had been deployed on Wednesday night.

On Thursday, the mayor of Algeciras and Partido Popular MP Juan Ignacio Landaluce, said that “patience has its limits.”

He said “a solution has been sought but they have not given an inch. Who is acting irresponsibly – those who are trying to protect what is theirs (meaning Spain) or those who are making the situation tenser?”

The problem dates back to last March, when negotiations between fishermen’s guilds in La Línea and Algeciras and Gibraltar broke down after the latter annulled a 1999 agreement allowing the fleets to fish up to half a nautical mile from The Rock.

The heightening of tension came a day after the Royal Household announced, on government advice, that Queen Sofía would not be attending a gathering of world monarchies at Windsor Castle and Buckingham Palace in honour of Queen Elizabeth II’s Diamond Jubilee. One newspaper revealed that the Queen had been looking forward to the visit and only backed out because she was ordered to. Foreign Minister José Manuel García-Margallo said on Thursday the decision was taken to avoid a potentially uncomfortable situation for the Queen. “What would have happened if there had been an incident (with the fishing boats) during the Queen’s stay in London?” he said at a press conference on Thursday.

The Spanish government had already expressed its displeasure with Prince Edward’s scheduled visit to Gibraltar next month, but the European Monarchic Association came out in support of the visit, saying monarchs have the “obligation” to honour invitations from others. Pedro Schwenzer, the association’s president, said trying to prevent British Royals from visiting their subjects was “ridiculous”.

Fortunately the “war” is being confined to words – at the moment.


Source: the News Online, Spain.


----------



## alserrod

Little resume with further information.

Since earlier 18th century, this corner has been British.
https://maps.google.es/maps?q=gibra...pn=0.357059,0.676346&t=h&hnear=Gibraltar&z=14

But in fact, the territory where the stadium, airport and surrounds are should be neutral. Thanks to a new treaty the airport can be used from Spain with no custom controls for a flight to Schengen area (a little terminal but two ways inside).

The Utrech treaty (I read it yesterday... and it is not easy, it is written with some words that were used 300 years ago but not today) is very confused but talks about the "country land" and the entrance to the port. It says nothing about the rest of the sea.

What kind of criteria should be used?. As an example, the 14 km between Morocco and Spain are 4 km for each country only and 2 lanes of 3 km for going Atlantic to Mediterranean and upside down.

But about this waters, the treaty says nothing. Only about entrance to port... and the port has been enlarged in these three centuries.

Furthermore... considering the most common criterias for international waters, the Gibraltar government allowed Spanish fishers to stay close to them except near the coast (they do not work fishing and didn't matter).
In the same way... it is hardly difficult for an army British plane to land Gibraltar without entering in Spanish territory

Two weeks ago, the Gibraltar prime minister didn't allow to fish there... and a little war started.

1- Spanish police helped fishers to go there... specially to that "neutral area", but also for the one that is not recognised specially by the Utrech treaty.
2- Gibraltar police made what they consider to avoid these fishers near their territory, and there are tense situations.
3- Mr. Rajoy and Mr. Cameron joined in an international meeting in between and had too many things to talk about... but nothing about this problem.
4- Spanish police started to make hard controls for entrance/exit Gibraltar. No forbidden... but just an exhaustive passport and baggage control (enough to collapse the border)
5- There is further more political inside Spain. Algeciras municipality (where all fishers come) is of the same political party of central government. La Linea municipality is of the opposite political party. 
There are accusations from one to other town about this problem and how they manage it.

... and while fishers and police every night are in tense relations and queues at border are horrible... Mr. Rajoy and Mr. Cameron seems not to have anything to say about when they meet themselves...


----------



## alserrod

Chun123 said:


> El Cerro Aconcagua (6962mt)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope you enjoyed it.




Is it popular at America to go there on mountain trekking or similar?. I say it because inside Europe I do not remember anyone going there but too many people going Himalaya. It is almost 7000m and, after Everest and surroundin mountains (which takes several countries), we can be sure it is the second highest border in the world


----------



## Road_UK

I just read an interesting article, that both Gibraltarians and the local Spanish people in the area think it is always going to be this way. The ongoing fights about the rock is between Madrid and London only, and locals from both nationalities just get on with it. The Spanish go to Gibraltar for cheap shopping, and the Gibraltarians go to Spain for cheap wining and dining.

On the border on the Gibraltar side there is an office, where people can complaint about harassment of Spanish border officials. There is also a sign saying that Gibraltar regrets the delays occurred by Spanish authorities. Not sure if it is still there, it was 2 years ago, last time I was there.


----------



## alserrod

you can see a poll about this topic in the Spanish forum and most of Spanish forumers have said that this international problem worries little to them or absolutely nothing...

off-topic.... it seems to be a "political wall" to have media with some news different than someone harder inside Spain in these days.
I think most of people would think that... "deja vu".

This is why most of Spanish forumers said that it was one of their last problems today... with a very complicated situation inside the country and no time to think about these borders.

Despite what government tried... people doesn't mind. People prefers answers about what they are doing and last mesures taken... instead of what did they do four police (yeah, only four) boats in the Algeciras bay...


----------



## alserrod

Road_UK said:


> I just read an interesting article, that both Gibraltarians and the local Spanish people in the area think it is always going to be this way. The ongoing fights about the rock is between Madrid and London only, and locals from both nationalities just get on with it. The Spanish go to Gibraltar for cheap shopping, and the Gibraltarians go to Spain for cheap wining and dining.
> 
> On the border on the Gibraltar side there is an office, where people can complaint about harassment of Spanish border officials. There is also a sign saying that Gibraltar regrets the delays occurred by Spanish authorities. Not sure if it is still there, it was 2 years ago, last time I was there.




In fact... there is nothing special compared with a lot of international borders.

The main difference since two weeks ago is that then they were looking people and asking something if they tought they should... and now they are asking for passport to everyone.

I think that there is nothing to say for asking the passport in every movement outside the Schengen treaty. Other thing is that these controls are not so usual for a travel from Spain to Great Britain (even if by plane depending of the airport, they can let you enter with a random passport control only...).



There is another detail to say: It is the narrowest border that can be crossed by car and with a custom control in each side in all the world (I think Macao-China was narrowest but now that border do not exists). So... anyone can imagine that there is not too many space to prepare a big custom cabin...


----------



## tonylondon

bloody hell......... for sure not war???


----------



## Hoskins

tonylondon said:


> bloody hell......... for sure not war???


:|

I think it would be pretty big news if war broke out between two EU and NATO members!!


----------



## alserrod

Have a look to a Spanish thread that was opened a long time ago and now it has a poll. The majority answers are "it means few to me" or "they are not my business"


And we should talk about border crossings...


----------



## Road_UK

We are. We are talking about a foreign police force crossing the border into British waters.


----------



## CNGL

Well... you know my position about the Gibraltar thing.


----------



## Godius

Trespassing territorial waters with armed forces (without the approval of the sovereign state) is a violation of the UNCLOS treaty.


----------



## g.spinoza

So get ready for war about a useless piece of rock. You seemed willing about 10 years ago on that Perejil incident...


----------



## Road_UK

Useless piece of rock??? Have you been there??? Gibraltar is great!


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Useless piece of rock??? Have you been there??? Gibraltar is great!




Yes I've been there. I guess it's useful... for macaques :lol:


----------



## alserrod

Godius said:


> Trespassing territorial waters with armed forces (without the approval of the sovereign state) is a violation of the UNCLOS treaty.




Take a read to Utrech treaty. They talk about the country land and the entrance to the harbour. Harbour has been enlarged too many since then. They say nothing about waters.

Furthermore... building in a neutral area it is also a violation of a treaty, as well as having the customs in the other side of the neutral area.

Do you know which area is the neutral one, so then shared by UK and Spain?

It is a topic that really it doesn't worth to me... but sometimes a take a look to documents and I think there is too many unknoledgment.

(that appart of the Spanish government possitions and measures in this fact, which I do not approve)


Hint: Open Google Earth and look the yellow border of Gibraltar and the red one. The territory between those lines is the neutral zone, binational at all according to the Utrech treaty and border customs should be southern there.


----------



## mexico15

bogdymol said:


> I understand the restriction on bringing fruits in Australia from another country, but I can't understand why you can't go with bananas from one Australian state to another one.


the same here in Mexico, you cant travel to my state, Sinaloa, if you bring fruits and vegetables from other states! 

1 por wa we wi wa, en Flickr

Sinaloa- Sonora state border


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## mexico15

nayarit por wa we wi wa, en Flickr

in Nayarit. Nayarit- Jalisco Border


bcs por wa we wi wa, en Flickr

in Baja California Sur. BCS- Baja California border


3 por wa we wi wa, en Flickr

in Chiapas, Chiapas- Oaxaca Border


----------



## mexico15

manuelmonge said:


> nayarit por wa we wi wa, en Flickr
> 
> in Nayarit. Nayarit- Jalisco Border
> 
> 
> bcs por wa we wi wa, en Flickr
> 
> in Baja California Sur. BCS- Baja California border
> 
> 
> 3 por wa we wi wa, en Flickr
> 
> in Chiapas, Chiapas- Oaxaca Border


also there are state police checkpoints in these borders


----------



## Chun123

Just to let you know, the Paso Cristo Redentor in Mendoza was closed today. Yes, in may, and due to a snow storm. Stucked trucks season has just began.


----------



## Tepes

Chun123 said:


> Just to let you know, the Paso Cristo Redentor in Mendoza was closed today. Yes, in may, and due to a snow storm. Stucked trucks season has just began.


Is there any other paved road suitable for truck traffic between Santiago and Buenos Aires?


----------



## mgk920

manuelmonge said:


> the same here in Mexico, you cant travel to my state, Sinaloa, if you bring fruits and vegetables from other states!
> 
> 1 por wa we wi wa, en Flickr
> 
> Sinaloa- Sonora state border


There are similar stations on the roads leading into California here in the USA.

Aren't there similar stations between some of the states in Australia, too?

Mike


----------



## Verso

^^ Yes, read the discussion from bogdymol's old post on.


----------



## alserrod

Chun123 said:


> Just to let you know, the Paso Cristo Redentor in Mendoza was closed today. Yes, in may, and due to a snow storm. Stucked trucks season has just began.


where is located the area where it was cancelled one step of last Dakar in January (let's remember than January is full summer...)


----------



## italystf

What's the point of checks between different Mexican states? Have they different taxes for goods? Are also passenger cars stopped?


----------



## Chun123

alserrod said:


> where is located the area where it was cancelled one step of last Dakar in January (let's remember than January is full summer...)


The 6th step of the last Dakar race, between Fiambálá, Argentina, and Copiapó, Chile. This leg of the race, that crosses the Andes through the Paso San Francisco, was cancelled due to a snow and rain storm at the top of the moutains. Here the mountains are very high, and this kind of storms are really dangerous. 

So it waas supposed to be:









But it was like this:









This mountain pass lies about 600 to 800 km north of the Paso Cristo Redentor. I'll post some pictures.


----------



## Chun123

This is the Paso de Sna Francisco, in Catamarca, Argentina, that links Fiambalá with Copiapó in Chile. It lies at 4720 mt a.s.l. The road is patially paved, but not in very good conditions. In winter it is really frezing up there.

The border in summer:









The border in winter:









Some winter pics:

























Some in summer:

















Customs:









A shelter right in the middle:


----------



## MrAkumana

Tepes said:


> Is there any other paved road suitable for truck traffic between Santiago and Buenos Aires?


As of today there are just 4 fully paved border crossings between Chile and Argentina:
(all of them suitable for truck traffic, the design on every case is a 1x1 highway with 80 to 110 km/h speed limit and mostly on good conditions)

- Paso de Jama on the north (4400 mts high)
- Paso e los libertadores / Cristo Redentor on the center (3200 mts high)
- Paso Pino Hachado on south/Patagonia (1800 mts high)
- Paso Puyehue/Cardenal Samoré on south/Patagonia (1300 mts high)

The northermost pass and the southermost pass are like 2000 km away from one another... The Andes, that divide Chile and Argentina, are VERY high mountains and there aren't any major cities close to them on both sides at the same time worth connecting (except, of course Santiago and Mendoza which are lacking a better road). The south of South America is in general a quite scarcely populated area specially on the Andes, I guess this is one of the reasons that made so slow the progress on paving more passes.


----------



## bogdymol

Aren't there any plans for a more direct route bewteen Santiago and Mendoza? With some longer tunnels, lower max. altitude etc.


----------



## Surel

PL/CZ border near Bohumin. Photo from the Polish side, direction Bohumin, Ostrava. The bridge in the middle over Olše/Olza is on the Czech side just after the borderline.


----------



## Markowice10

Today, the control was restored on borders of Poland with Czech Republic, Germany, Slovakia and Lithuania.
Border controls were introduced in relationship UEFA Euro 2012.


----------



## alserrod

MrAkumana said:


> As of today there are just 4 fully paved border crossings between Chile and Argentina:
> (all of them suitable for truck traffic, the design on every case is a 1x1 highway with 80 to 110 km/h speed limit and mostly on good conditions)



And at Tierra del Fuego?


----------



## MrAkumana

alserrod said:


> And at Tierra del Fuego?


There's one border crossing fully paved and one being paved at this moment on that area... BUT it's kind of irrelevant for what we were talking cos just local traffic can use them, as the the road network of that part of Chile is completely unconnected to the rest of the country.


----------



## Chun123

alserrod said:


> And at Tierra del Fuego?


Remember Tiera del Fuego is an island. So to go there you need first to cross from Argentina to Chile, then take the ferry to cross the Magallanes strait. Then once in the island you have to cross back from Chile to Argentina. But those crossings are not so busy. Most traffic is cargo.


----------



## Chun123

There are three border crossings in Tierra del Fuego:

1 - Paso Alfa Cullen. It is just a technical pass, only for oil, gas and water pipelines, running between Argentina and Chile. And also for the employees that take care of this pipes. You can find it in the map below, where it says *6* Ea. El Salvador. Northern of the circle. 









2 - Paso Rio Bella Vista. It goes through a river, so it is just for 4x4 vehicles, linking Puerto Porvenir in Argentina with Camerún, in Chile. This is important cause it links Chile with Rio Grande City.

























3 - Paso San Sebastian. This is the main international pass in the island. This is the one on the nº 3 route, the route that links Ushuaia with Buenos Aires.









Customs.









The ferry.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^It's no longer "Tierra del Fuego, Antártida *Argentina* e Islas del Atlántico Sur"? Does that mean you've annexed the *entire* Antarctic now? ;-)


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^It's no longer "Tierra del Fuego, Antártida *Argentina* e Islas del Atlántico Sur"? Does that mean you've annexed the *entire* Antarctic now? ;-)




As far as I know, the Antartic is not territory of any nation but there are some parts where countries manage the territory, mainly with scientific interests.

Argentina has its own part, in the nearest location to the country.




P.S. I have friends who went to Argentina on honeymoon. They arrived until Ushuaia after three weeks and returned Buenos Aires. Just arriving Buenos Aires and a general strike of Aerolineas Argentinas broke down. They had to be some days more in the capital and asking for a new plane in a Spanish company, as well they were not affected by the strike.

They said they gave thanks to be, for just some hours, at Buenos Aires when the strike started because being south... and with no other communication (are they at least three days on a bus?)... is to get crazy!


----------



## g.spinoza

Yes, Antarctica is claimed by a bunch of nations, including UK, France and Australia. hno:


----------



## Road_UK

Is that a bad thing? Nobody lives there anyway...


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Is that a bad thing? Nobody lives there anyway...


Try to explain it to the rest of the world when they will start drilling for oil or use it as a waste disposal.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> Is that a bad thing? Nobody lives there anyway...


Well, I've always thought the full name of the province of Tierra del Fuego - which I thought was "Tierra del Fuego, the Argentine Antarctic and the Islands of the South Atlantic" - was a bit...pretentious. I imagine some Brits may have stronger words than "pretentious" about the Islands of the South Atlantic (which are not unpopulated). Dropping the qualifier "Argentine" seems to make it more so. But it's possible I misremembered the full name.

Sort of like English monarchs claiming to be Queen or King of France in the extended version of their title. Do they still do that?


----------



## Stainless

g.spinoza said:


> Try to explain it to the rest of the world when they will start drilling for oil or use it as a waste disposal.


There is an agreement to protect it. Hopefully that means it will never be used for waste disposal. Unfortunately I think it will be very hard to protect it from the greed of oil companies.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Penn's Woods said:


> Sort of like English monarchs claiming to be Queen or King of France in the extended version of their title. Do they still do that?


Nope, I had a look on wikipedia


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^And apparently that stopped under George III.

How was your Jubilee?


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^And apparently that stopped under George III.
> 
> How was your Jubilee?


Normal bank holiday, nothing special


----------



## Escher

*Tierra del Fuego*


----------



## Malina PL

cinxxx said:


> Isn't the speed limit on motorways in Poland 140 kmh?


Yes, it's 140km/h on motorways and 120 km/h on dual carriageway expressways.
This sign is old.


----------



## Attus

Malina PL said:


> Yes, it's 140km/h on motorways and 120 km/h on dual carriageway expressways.
> This sign is old.


I photographed it four days ago...


----------



## cinxxx

So, it's old and not up2date


----------



## ScraperDude

Can people understand one anothers language in these border regions like Cezch Republic and Poland? 
Like looking at a map and street view I see two houses on Borovského, Karvina, Czech Rep. on one Polish side, one on Czech side and wonder do these people even communicate? 

Living in the U.S. no where near any border crossings or different language borders I just have to wonder about it. Or can Czech speaking people reside on Polish side or vice versa (before Schengen)?


----------



## WB2010

^^
Both Polish and Czech languages belong not only to the Slavic languages, but to the same West Slavic branch (along with Slovak and Sorbian spoken by a small Slavic minority in the east of Germany), so our languages are very closely related and mutually understandable. In that particular area there is also a sizeable Polish minority living along the border (at least 50 thousand people). 

The only Polish borders where close to one another live people who speak very different and not easily understandable languages are with Germany and Lithuania, but also in this case you should not forget that there are Slavic Sorbians living close to the Polish border (more less between Bautzen and Cottbus) and some Poles living in Locknitz (west of Szczecin) and that there is a small Lithuanian minority inside Poland (Puńsk area) and a very significant Polish minority in Lithuania (more than a quarter of a million people in a country of 3,2 million).


----------



## Attus

ScraperDude said:


> Can people understand one anothers language in these border regions like Cezch Republic and Poland?


Basically yes, they can. It is not the same language, but very similar (althouth spelling is very different). It does not necesserily meand that Polish people will understand a complex sentence about Czech poetry of 19th century, but Czech customers will not have problems in Polish shops, Czech-Polish neighbours are able to talk about gardening, etc., without learning each other's language,


----------



## Road_UK

The Germans and Dutch on both sides of the border speak each others language well enough to chat. Same goes for the Germans and French.


----------



## LMB

ScraperDude said:


> Can people understand one anothers language in these border regions like Cezch Republic and Poland?
> Like looking at a map and street view I see two houses on Borovského, Karvina, Czech Rep. on one Polish side, one on Czech side and wonder do these people even communicate?
> 
> Living in the U.S. no where near any border crossings or different language borders I just have to wonder about it. Or can Czech speaking people reside on Polish side or vice versa (before Schengen)?


1. The border between PL and CZ has always been very mixed, sometimes natural (along a river), but sometimes down a rural road, or across a single property (think double tax bureaucracy). The border is similar to that of US/Canada, practically impossible to guard, it was actually a joke even during communist times. 

2. Settling in foreign EU countries - no problem, Schengen has nothing to do with it, it only says that you can cross the border at a ford or jump across a creek, instead of having to drive to the nearest border crossing. 

3. Basic communication between various Slavic languages is no problem, perhaps you can't talk about politics, but shop, train, etc. BTW there are funny false friends (Polish "seek" = Czech "f*ck")


----------



## mapman:cz

LMB said:


> 3. Basic communication between various Slavic languages is no problem, perhaps you can't talk about politics, but shop, train, etc. BTW there are funny false friends (Polish "seek" = Czech "f*ck")


True, though in classic czech literature from the 19th century is this word still fairly used as a synonym for hledat (seek, search).

There are many more confusing words - czech jahoda (strawbery) and polish jagoda (berry in general) are not the same, other casi is czech had (snake) and polish gad (reptile), czech droga (drug) and polish droga (street) etc...


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> The Germans and Dutch on both sides of the border speak each others language well enough to chat. Same goes for the Germans and French.


Yes, there are many German speaker in the French region of Alsatia (for historical reasons, like in Alto Adige).
Are German and Dutch quite understandable each other like Italian and Spanish?
What about different Scandinavian languages (apart Finnish, off course)?
And between Baltic republics?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

italystf said:


> Are German and Dutch quite understandable each other like Italian and Spanish?


German is in many ways similar to Dutch. However, the frequent mistake of the Dutch is that they underestimate the German language, instead trying to make Dutch words sound German and think they have excellent knowledge of German. 

I've once heard this Dutch guy talking about an office (kantoor in Dutch), which he translated as "kantör", which may sound German, but it isn't. (The German word is Büro, which in turn sounds like the Dutch word for "desk" (bureau)).


----------



## ScraperDude

I remember numerous pages back someone posted story of a gentleman who's home was in a border region and his driveway was blocked off etc. by the government. 
I think it was a Slovakia/Hungary border or... I can't really remember the excat location. 

It seems the new U.S. border fence is doing the same thing to U.S. citizens in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas. Due to an environmental rule about development near the Rio Grande river, the U.S. govt is building this fence further north and peoples homes are stuck south of it and will have to use a passcode to open a gate to their driveways! Sounds ridiculous! 

If you want a google street view use this address: 11106 Southmost Blvd. South Point, Texas

Here's a story from last November on the subject. 
Here's the story from New York Times


----------



## ScraperDude

Another place to see the fence cut through a road is (but breaks to allow the road to pass through) is at this address:
1659 County Road 125, Brownsville, TX

I understand the reason for the fence but still how is it effective with roads and no gates?
I suppose if border patrol plans to stake out the open crossing it could be effective. Regardless this fence is inland seperating U.S. land not on the border like Arizona or California. Once again due to the laws about building close to the river.


----------



## vitacit

ScraperDude said:


> Can people understand one anothers language in these border regions like Cezch Republic and Poland?
> Like looking at a map and street view I see two houses on Borovského, Karvina, Czech Rep. on one Polish side, one on Czech side and wonder do these people even communicate?
> 
> Living in the U.S. no where near any border crossings or different language borders I just have to wonder about it. Or can Czech speaking people reside on Polish side or vice versa (before Schengen)?


The same here in Slovakia. In Slovakia-Czech Rep., Slovakia-Ukraine, Slovakia-Poland border regions people can handle both the languages as they belong to the slavic group of languages With czech language we have no problem at all, due to the 70 years of living in one country and commong media market (books, movies etc) we have became naturaly bilingual people. Polish depends - I'm form the northeastern Slovakia, dialect spoken there are very similar to polish, we used to watch polist TV at home. Ukrainian mostly in the far eastern Slovakia, but people from the west don't understand it. Southern Slovakia shares border with Hungary, we have 10% of hungarian minority here so people communicate mostly hungarian down there. Now I live in Bratislava which is the only capital city in the world that borders two other countries (Austria an Hungary). Due to the complex history this city was trilingual - slovak, german and hungarian (and jewish, too). Borders are all around the city (check the map), many slovaks work in Vienna, live in Austria or Hungary and work in Bratislava etc. It's common here to understand and speak hungarian or german here. We are small country influenced by all the countries around so our language is sort of central european esperanto))))


----------



## Road_UK

What is the Komarom-Komarno situation? I have been in Komarom loads of times, at the Nokia site, and I have seen the bridge that forms the border with Komarno, Slovakia often enough, but never went across it. Do the people get along?

In Slovakia I usually go to Zvolen. What is the relationship between the people of Bratislava, and the local Austrians across the border? It is a weird sight, driving in the Austrian countryside, with the communist-but-done-up-style skyline of Bratislava in the distance...


----------



## riiga

italystf said:


> What about different Scandinavian languages (apart Finnish, off course)?


For the spoken variety, Swedes usually understand Norwegian and vice versa for Norwegians, but both have a hard time with Danish. Danish people on the other hand can usually make something of both, but tend to find Norweigan a bit easier since the vocabulary is less different. Written text is often of no problem, except for the difference in vocabulary.


----------



## Verso

vitacit said:


> We are small country influenced by all the countries around so our language is sort of central european esperanto))))


I don't find Slovak to be similar to German or Hungarian at all. :shifty:


----------



## vitacit

*...*



Verso said:


> I don't find Slovak to be similar to German or Hungarian at all. :shifty:


we have a lot of germant and hungarian words in the language. bratislava had been quite germanised city for centuries, germant colonisation in the 12th and 15th century has resulted in large scale to the architecture, habits, there are still regions in slovakia where people speak dialects of german (northern and central slovakia). and the same with hungarian.


----------



## Attus

Road_UK said:


> What is the Komarom-Komarno situation? I have been in Komarom loads of times, at the Nokia site, and I have seen the bridge that forms the border with Komarno, Slovakia often enough, but never went across it. Do the people get along


Yes, but there are lots of political issues there. Not so long ago the president of Hungary was blocked by Slovak police on the bridge and he didn't manage to enter Slovakia. Komarno (called also Komárom in our language, it had been the same town for several centuries) and especially the region beyond the town has a Hungarian ethnical majority and some Slovak politicians always think we want to get that region back to Hungary and try to block Hungarian-Hungarian contacts as far as possible.

So, back to the topic: both sides of Danube has a Tesco shop and when Euro is stronger and Forint weaker, Slovak customers come to Hungary for shopping, and vice versa. For almost all residents of Komarno and that region speak at least mediocre Hungarian, there are basically no language issues.


----------



## Road_UK

Yes, I did some shopping in the Hungarian Tesco. It only a 100 somewhat meters from the bridge.


----------



## piotr71

Zagor666 said:


> Border between Switzerland and Liechtenstein,a stone,a flagpole and a sign,thats it :cheers:
> ...


I know another ones 

1.



























2.


----------



## piotr71

*Dover(GB)-Calais(F)*

England.














































France.




































Keep to the right!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

So getting on the ferry is much like paying at a toll booth.


----------



## piotr71

Just about  
Need to remember to buy additional equipment compulsory on the Continent such like extinquisher, headlamp beam converter kit, spare bulbs, warning triangle and (ridiculous) alcomat (7 pounds) to be up to the French law.


----------



## scott125

Had my Passport Checked between Belfast and Stranraer once:nuts:


----------



## Road_UK

piotr71 said:


> Just about
> Need to remember to buy additional equipment compulsory on the Continent such like extinquisher, headlamp beam converter kit, spare bulbs, warning triangle and (ridiculous) alcomat (7 pounds) to be up to the French law.


Got a basic kit. I never bother with headlight converters. Only tourists do that.


----------



## piotr71

*Umbrail Pass. (CH)(I)*

I use "home made" stickers. Never bought recommended converters sold in shops.

In my opinion, additional equipment's requirements in the UK are too low. I just can't imagine driving without warning triangle and extinguisher onboard. I wouldn't feel safely driving on four different tyres either which is allowed in GB. 

---------------

Another border crossing I passed recently.

*Umbrail Pass. (CH)(I)* 




























Actuall borderline.




































Looking at from Stelvio Pass.


----------



## piotr71

*Raschenpass/Passo Resia. (I)(A)*




























Borderline.


----------



## Road_UK

I use nothing at all on my headlights. Waste of time. Keep it at level 2 and nobody will be blinded.


----------



## Chilio

Border between Bulgaria and Macedonia near Gyueshevo village:



Andrej_LJ said:


> ГКПП Гюешево:


Border speed limits' sign is wrong - not up to date with the new motorway limit of 140 km/h... It will be months (or ages) until somebody decides to update it  There is one old rusty such speed-limits sign on the beginning of A1 near Sofia which still says 120 km/h


----------



## piotr71

*Munt la Schera Tunnel. (CH)(I)*

I'd wish having as simple as Bulgarian one in my country.

-------------
Very narrow, single file border crossing. I haven't crossed that one but as far as I know crossing the tunnel wasn't so easy before Switzerland joined Schengen. There were certain opening times and it was closed at night. Also, it's quite expensive to get on the other side. It costs 15 franks.

http://maps.google.com/maps/api/sta....652971,10.189133&size=1000x1000&sensor=false


IMGP0392 by 71piotr, on Flickr


IMGP0393 by 71piotr, on Flickr


IMGP0394 by 71piotr, on Flickr


----------



## italystf

piotr71 said:


> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/7699632552/
> 
> 
> IMGP0394 by 71piotr, on Flickr


Merano\Meran signposted in CH? Or is a Swiss place with the same name?
And is Umbrail pass now paved all the way?


----------



## piotr71

I think they mean Italian Merano which is not far away.
http://maps.google.com/maps/api/sta....671294,11.152518&size=1000x1000&sensor=false

There is still short, about 1km, unpaved section of Umbrail left:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Müstair is a town in extreme eastern Switzerland and is not the same as Meran/Merano.


----------



## Verso

Yeah, I was surprised about gravel when I drove there. It's the highest mountain pass in Switzerland. Great pics!


----------



## Palance

Road_UK said:


> I use nothing at all on my headlights. Waste of time. Keep it at level 2 and nobody will be blinded.


So did I when I took the ferry from Calais to UK. The easiest and cheapest way. 

Border BG-MK: Why is Bulgaria written in English and not in the local language (as is usual on these signs)?


----------



## DanielFigFoz

piotr71 said:


> Just about
> Need to remember to buy additional equipment compulsory on the Continent such like extinquisher, headlamp beam converter kit, spare bulbs, warning triangle and (ridiculous) alcomat (7 pounds) to be up to the French law.


I don't think that any British people actually bother to do that.

Yeah Chris, you go through what is basically a toll booth and onto a ferry


----------



## Zagor666

The border on the Umbrail is ideal for smuggling.i drived 4 or 5 times over this border and never saw anybody even near the customhouse :cheers:

here a picture from 2010(early august)


----------



## Alex_ZR

Palance said:


> Border BG-MK: Why is Bulgaria written in English and not in the local language (as is usual on these signs)?


It would be like this: БЪЛГАРИЯ. Many foreigners wouldn't understand Cyrillic inscription.


----------



## Verso

Chilio said:


> Border speed limits' sign is wrong - not up to date with the new motorway limit of 140 km/h...


Since when?


----------



## piotr71

*France - Germany E54*




























Unused border's booth on the right hand side.



























Old French sign.









Borderline.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Lots of red Xes



piotr71 said:


> Being aware I will be passing close to Lux, I would not refuel until I get there even if Belgians, French, Dutch or Germans offered a free breakfast or so, on their petrol station.


Still, it's good to know if you're leaving Liège and don't have enough in the tank to make it to Luxembourg that you should fill up....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is a gas station immediately south of Liège, but nothing after that for about 120 kilometers. While 120 km / 75 miles without services may not sound like a whole lot for Americans living in the west, it's considered a significant distance in Europe. The Dutch motorist association ANWB has a record of over 60 Dutch who ran out of gas along E25 in 2011. Of course many of them are too cheap to gas up in Belgium or the Netherlands, but want to refuel in Luxembourg.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^That's amazing. I wouldn't expect 75 miles between gas stations in most of North America, let alone the heart of western Europe.


----------



## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^That's amazing. I wouldn't expect 75 miles between gas stations in most of North America, let alone the heart of western Europe.


Italian Autostrada A25 only has 2 service stations, one at the beginning and the other one at the end, separated by 90 km / 56 miles.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^A quirk, as you may know, of American toll-free Interstates is they *don't* have service areas along them; just rest areas (with toilets, picnic areas and so on, but nothing more commercial than a vending machine). This is because when Congress was considering the funding for the Interstate system, there was some concern about small towns that were commercially dependent on through traffic, so Congress actually prohibited businesses on the Interstates. (Interstates that are toll roads, and other toll roads, do normally have service areas like Europeans are used to.)

The result of this is that you have to get off the Interstate to buy gas or food or whatever - since there are no tolls, it doesn't matter - but you'll find something at most exits. (Not the small towns Congress was concerned about 50-odd years ago, ironically, but right at the exits.) Often multiple stations, which keeps prices down. So in a place as densely populated as Belgium, I'd expect not to have to go more than about ten miles (16 km) without finding a gas station.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Ardennes are quite sparsely populated. Bastogne has 15,000 inhabitants, but most other places along E25 are small villages. 

The system of off-motorway services is also widely used in Germany (Autohöfe) and Scandinavia. Often these places offer better services (especially geared towards truckers) and sometimes cheaper fuel.


----------



## Penn's Woods

One would still think the locals need to fill up somewhere....

Anyhow, is Google Maps wrong about where the border is? Looks here as if all those gas stations are on Belgian territory: https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=49.831415,5.744251&spn=0.001934,0.004115&t=h&z=18


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Google Maps is not entirely precise when it comes to borders.


----------



## Dan

DanielFigFoz said:


> I wonder if 'AIDS' is always used in Brazil instead of 'SIDA'.


A late reply - but yes. Only ever heard of SIDA when I went to Portugal for a visit!


----------



## luk085

Penn's Woods said:


> One would still think the locals need to fill up somewhere....
> 
> Anyhow, is Google Maps wrong about where the border is? Looks here as if all those gas stations are on Belgian territory: https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=49.831415,5.744251&spn=0.001934,0.004115&t=h&z=18


Openstreetmap is better, go to http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=49.83309&lon=5.74493&zoom=17&layers=M


----------



## OulaL

piotr71 said:


>


German speed limit sign in France? Or French direction sign in Germany?


----------



## khawa

OulaL said:


> German speed limit sign in France? Or French direction sign in Germany?


It's a German speed limit sign in France. The actual state line is a few hundred meters ahead on the international bridge over the Rhine, but there's an Autobahn junction immediately after the bridge, leaving too little space to post the border speed limit sign.


----------



## zsmg

piotr71 said:


> Old French sign.


I love it when a sign announces an exit (or in this case an interchange) in a neighbouring country. Doesn't happen enough though.


----------



## piotr71

*Weil am Rhein - Saint Louis(Huningue) - Basel (D)(F)(CH)*

Next one is pretty interesting. Weil am Rhein borders to both Switzerland and France. Saint Louis on opposite Rhein's bank borders to Germany and Switzerland and both towns are part of the Basel aglomeration.



















Approaching main border crossing between Weil and Basel.









Has 60 been applied for a reason?Yes it has, we will see soon why.


















Yeah, Dutch tourist are to blame for the traffic jam here 









Well, let's better find another way to get to Basel.


















Here we are!









Over the Rhein.



























Alsace.






















































Just about in Switzerland.


----------



## Corvinus

A1 (CH) -> A41 (F) border crossing at Geneva
August 2012

1.









2. Swiss booths









3.









4. French booths


----------



## alserrod

It's interesting the signal where they remember that motorways are indicated in green/blue depending on country


----------



## Corvinus

Els Limits (E) N-II main road -> Le Perthus (F), D-900 road crossing
August 2012

There were no controls whatsoever, the queue originated in Le Perthus.


----------



## alserrod

The problem is Els Limits / Le Perthus is a full street 1x1 and a lot of shops in the sides... so queues are for crossing two towns with a high activity.

In one old post I wrote about the exact points where the border goes. There is one part looking north where in the left you will find post, pharmacies and French banks and in the right side you will find a lot of supermarkets with any goods with less taxes...


----------



## piotr71

*Ushok Pass - Ukraine.*



>


Wiki.


----------



## Penn's Woods

I happened on this set the other day, while looking for a typical Quebec exit sign.

Some interesting photos from both sides of the U.S.-Canada border south of Montreal, particularly on page 2 and 3 of the set. Including signs for Montreal in the U.S., signs for New York in Quebec, bilingual signage....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mpd01605/sets/72157616605823577/

EDIT: Even more in the same user's set titled "Montreal"


----------



## Verso

Hungary (M70) -> Slovenia (A5). Notice a green Slovenian sign in Hungary for the rest area Pince in Slovenia (and Slovenian language before Hungarian, hehe).


----------



## Zagor666

^^ Is that you on the motorcycle? :banana:


----------



## Verso

No, I'm not Dmitriy Pavlovich from Ukraine. :lol:


----------



## Metred

*Spain-France border crossing at the western Pyrenees.*

Now entering the region of Navarra/Nafarroa (Spain):










Towards Spain:










Towards France:


----------



## alserrod

could be too in Linguistic issues.... first signal is in Spanish and Basque


----------



## bolg

Ponto do Ouro/Kosi Bay border crossing between South Africa and Mozambique.

Moz side








http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4038/4560559470_028af8ac49.jpg

SA side








http://www.kosimoon.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/farazelaborderpost.jpg


----------



## alserrod

Are they many strong controls in those borders?


----------



## Zagor666

Germany/Belgium border on the road Winterspelt-Lommersweiler :cheers:


----------



## alserrod

Speed limited for tanks?

Are tanks allowed to cross the border????????


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Tanks can pretty much do what they want.


----------



## Zagor666

alserrod said:


> Speed limited for tanks?
> 
> Are tanks allowed to cross the border????????


Well,they can drive to the middle of the bridge :colgate:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

alserrod said:


> Speed limited for tanks?


These are weight classes. All bridges in Germany have those signs.


----------



## alserrod

Wow... weight class... instead of a truck, a tank!!!


----------



## alserrod

Why one and two arrows on signals and different numbers?


----------



## Road_UK

Must be a regulation that has remained in tact from the Hitler era. After all, he built Autobahns, so that his tanks wouldn't get stuck in traffic...


----------



## alserrod

Got it!!!!, google street view crossed there and photos are available.

It is the only Schengen border with no customs or controls


Os de Civis (E) - Sant Julia de Loria (AND)


Looking to Spain:











There is no signal about entering in Spain. Only signals that point the direction of Os de Civis (no other possible way), remembering you are entering in a protected area and that it is forbidden to wash your car


Looking to Andorra










Only I can see at the end a signal with the Andorran numeration.


There is no customs, no fence and no passport control. Spain is in Schengen area and Europan Union, Andorra isn't in both of them.

But Os de Civis is a Spanish little town that there is no other way to go there (apart of helicopter or climbing mountains). So anyone who go, must return.

There is no duty control between Spain and Andorra if you go there (all Andorra is a duty free country), because you will use it in that town and it is cheaper to allow using duty free goods rather than making here a control.

Should you go to the rest of Spain you may enter again in Andorra and crossing the general border Andorra-Spain where you will have all controls.

As well as it is a zone between mountains, it is not easy to avoid custom controls.


----------



## Christophorus

alserrod said:


> Speed limited for tanks?
> 
> Are tanks allowed to cross the border????????


No, this is no speed limit, its military load class signalization used by nato pact and its forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Load_Classification


----------



## LMB

alserrod said:


> Why one and two arrows on signals and different numbers?


It means weight limits in tons, not speed. 

This is German army propaganda. After WW2 Germans were afraid of a retaliation attack, so they extended highways and rebuilt many national roads to facilitate the movement of troops. Once you know what it is and you drive all over the country, you get the idea that they must have been pretty scared :lol:


----------



## gogu.ca

alserrod said:


> Speed limited for tanks?
> 
> Are tanks allowed to cross the border????????


nato....baby... nato:cheers:


----------



## Zagor666

From Dahnen(Germany) to Kalborn(Luxembourg) :cheers:
The border is at 4:50


----------



## brisavoine

Some news about the bridge on the Oyapock River between France and Brazil heard tonight on France24. The Brazilians have FINALLY started work on the access road to the bridge on their side of the border in the beginning of August. The construction of the access road and the Brazilian border station is scheduled to take 3 months. So the bridge should be inaugurated soon now. :banana:


----------



## xrtn2

^^










Amapa news.






:banana::banana::banana:


----------



## alserrod

How much time can it take between the two nearest cities in the border?

Is it stimated to increase freight traffic or similar?

Btw, is it easy to import/export freight or are too many taxes and papers to write there?


----------



## Aokromes

alserrod said:


> could be too in Linguistic issues.... first signal is in Spanish and Basque


Both sides speaks Basque


----------



## Road_UK

Hmm, on both sides its a minority language...


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Hmm, on both sides its a minority language...


On the French side basically no one speaks it.


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> On the French side basically no one speaks it.


And very little on the Spanish side...


----------



## alserrod

On French side the use of it in that border is very small, but exists.

On Spanish side, it is an official language at all. It is not the area where it is more spoken, but it is official.

Like if you see something in Gaelic at Dublin. Not spoken but first official language there!!


PS. You can find "differences" between Basque language and any other one. All European languages and a lot of western Asia languages come from the same "family". So if you start studying them you will find some common points that will help you learning, even if you are a Norwegian speaker and are studyin Greek or upside down.

But Basque is absolutely different in that case.


----------



## Abinash89

Wagah border crossing,Indo-Pak border


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Is it a newly opened crossing, or they just do these shows many times during the year?


----------



## Abinash89

Every morning


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I saw that on the TV, really amazing


----------



## xrtn2

^^^^

Really great:cheers:

<<<<<<Uruguay......Brazil>>>>>>>>>











<<<<<Paraguay......Brazil>>>>>>










Brazil side,Paraguay ahead.


----------



## brisavoine

alserrod said:


> How much time can it take between the two nearest cities in the border?


Saint-Georges-de-l'Oyapock (France) and Oiapoque (Brazil) will be only 10 minutes from each other by car. Of course Saint-Georges-de-l'Oyapock has only 4,129 inhabitants (in 2009), and Oiapoque has only 20,426 inhabitants (in 2010).

Cayenne (116,000 inhabitants in its metro area in 2009) and Macapá (508,000 inhabitants in its metro area in 2010) are the two closest cities. Cayenne is 203 km from the bridge on the border, by a fully asphalted road with no potholes. Macapá is 575 km from the bridge by a non-fully asphalted road (several sections remain mere dirt trails, muddy during the rainy season). The road from the bridge to Macapá will be fully asphalted in the end of 2013 if the Brazilians are on time. There may be some potholes on the Brazilian side of the border though, because I don't know how often they repair the road.











alserrod said:


> Is it stimated to increase freight traffic or similar?
> 
> Btw, is it easy to import/export freight or are too many taxes and papers to write there?


Brazilian merchandises need to conform to EU regulations if they want to cross the border, so there won't be much freight in the beginning (many bridges on the road from the border to Cayenne could not carry large trucks anyway... they will be upgraded in the coming years to carry large trucks). So in the beginning there won't be much freight going through, but in time, with the improvements in the road, and the adaptation to EU regulations by Brazilian exporters, freight will probably increase.

This is the road between Cayenne and Saint-Georges-de-l'Oyapock :



















And that's the sections of the road between Macapá and Oiapoque which are still dirt trails :


----------



## xrtn2

^^

End 2013 the brazilian br-156 will totally asphalted

BR-156 one section in operation


----------



## brisavoine




----------



## alserrod

I read about the Pakistan / India border but I think it is not a "border crossing".


----------



## Verso

^^ Of course it's a border crossing.


----------



## Abinash89

alserrod said:


> I read about the Pakistan / India border but I think it is not a "border crossing".


It' a border crossing in the state of Punjab.For more info google "Wagah border crossing."


----------



## cinxxx

Back to boring Schengen border crossings:

*Austria-Italy* - http://goo.gl/maps/SX7zb

Entering Italy


AUT_B100 - AUT/ITA border by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B100 - AUT/ITA border by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B100 - AUT/ITA border by cinxxx, on Flickr


ITA_SS49 by cinxxx, on Flickr

And back to Austria


ITA_SS49 by cinxxx, on Flickr


ITA_SS49 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B100 - AUT/ITA border by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B100 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B100 by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## alserrod

Austria usually write the name in English in these signals instead of German or bilingual?


----------



## cinxxx

Two more entries from Austria to Germany (unfortunately pictures are kind of bad, low light):

Kufstein to Kiefersfelden --> http://goo.gl/maps/5rGLY

AUT_B171 - entering Germany in Kiefersfelden by cinxxx, on Flickr

AUT_L209 - DE_RO1 --> http://goo.gl/maps/DuhHE

AUT_L209 - entering Germany in Windshausen by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

alserrod said:


> Austria usually write the name in English in these signals instead of German or bilingual?


Actually it could be Italian and not English, maybe someone knows about this.
It's the first time I see it not written "Bundesrepublik Österreich". 

But, unfortunately not visible in the picture, on the sign it was written before "Bundesrepublik Österreich", still visible from close-up, with grey color, I think it was erased, and written on top "Austria".


----------



## Alex_ZR

cinxxx said:


> Actually it could be Italian and not English, maybe someone knows about this.
> It's the first time I see it not written "Bundesrepublik Österreich".
> 
> But, unfortunately not visible in the picture, on the sign it was written before "Bundesrepublik Österreich", still visible from close-up, with grey color, I think it was erased, and written on top "Austria".


There is no "Bundesrepublik Österreich" but "Republik Österreich", although Austrian police is called "Bundespolizei"... :lol:


----------



## Palance




----------



## cinxxx

You are right.
I got confused with _Budesrepublik Deutschland_.
But on the sign I posted, I remember clearly formerly being written _Republik Österreich_ but barely visible, only from up close.


----------



## Zagor666

cinxxx said:


> Back to boring Schengen border crossings:
> 
> *Austria-Italy* - http://goo.gl/maps/SX7zb
> 
> 
> AUT_B100 - AUT/ITA border by cinxxx, on Flickr


the same sign :cheers: i can´t count how often i crossed this border :nuts:


----------



## cinxxx

And another one I took when entering Austria from German B21 near Unken


DE_B21 - entering Austria by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## Zagor666

you can cross this border also via the steinpass :cheers:


----------



## cinxxx

Zagor666 said:


> you can cross this border also via the steinpass :cheers:


Can you give me a (Google) roadmap route?
The route I took was http://goo.gl/maps/wPM53


----------



## Zagor666

cinxxx said:


> Can you give me a (Google) roadmap route?
> The route I took was http://goo.gl/maps/wPM53


give you what?  
i dont know how google roadmaps works but this one is easy,you drive from the austrian side and hit left when you see the sign for melleck :cheers:


----------



## PLH

PL / D - finally fully reconstructed 



igorlan said:


> Jędrzychowice - Ludwigsdorf - 15/09/2012


----------



## alserrod

There is, absolutely, no doubt.

It is the narrowest border world wide.

In the coast, Morocco. The rock is Spain.

An old treaty said all the continent will be Morocco but nothing about the rocks which remained Spanish.


Much later, an eartquake moved the beach and the sand and... an ithsmus was created, making with only 120 m wide the narrowest border world wide.


----------



## alserrod

Today a Sunday magazine wrote an article about it. The problem became because some inmigrants arrived one of those islands... and we start with the legacy... 
should they have to beported or should they have to be considered as illegal inmigrants as well as they arrived to Spanish territory?

There is a treaty between Morocco and Spain about inmigration, and Morocco receive all inmigrants that come from their territory with no problem.
The problem is that if the inmigrants arrive to Europe it is hard to demostrate they are Moroccan or at least, they departured from Morocco, so they only are used to accept those from Ceuta and Melilla.
But in this case, islands close to Morocco coast, there is no doubt and no problem on Morocco side.

The problem is on Spanish legislation side!!


I post the link of the full Spanish article, the other five pictures of the narrowest border world wide and the first paragraphs translated into English


http://www.finanzas.com/xl-semanal/magazine/20120916/islotes-espanoles-ultima-frontera-3563.html




> A blue rope, lyed on the sand, side to side of the isthmus. Can be surprising but it is a border, the one that separates the Velez de la Gomera Rock territory, under Spanish sovereignty, to the tiny and close fisher village of Badis, in the Gomara region, northern Morocco.
> 
> Traveler who arrives behind that rope, from the Moroccan side, would need only to pass a foot over it to break over on another country and cause an immediate sentinel action, belonging part of the "Regulares 52" of Melilla who keep the fortress. Any other who approach from the opposite side, the Spanish territory, will make an act to enter Morocco illegally, which undoubtedly will mobilize someone in the nearby Moroccan military post.




This is the blue rope. Right Morocco, left Spain. Fishers go until the rope but not far away.











The roof of the highest building is the point for helicopters too. At the end of the picture, Moroccan beach


----------



## zsmg

Can't they just give the rock to Morroco, it would save everyone some headaches.


----------



## g.spinoza

zsmg said:


> Can't they just give the rock to Morroco, it would save everyone some headaches.


Would you "just give" a piece of your nation to others? hno:


----------



## Road_UK

It would certainly set an example and strengthen their claim on Gibraltar.


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> It would certainly set an example and strengthen their claim on Gibraltar.


A military praesidium against a thriving community of 30.000. Apples and oranges


----------



## alserrod

zsmg said:


> Can't they just give the rock to Morroco, it would save everyone some headaches.


Really... I think so. And save money.

That... or using as holiday resorts... but being on a country where army has had a lot of power... it is better do not talk about the topic with them.

I knew about that island (peninsula) and today I read about it in a magazine. I found the link and posted.


----------



## alserrod

Apart of this article... it is not easy to enter in that rock. As military territory, there is not a border with police on it but a military in the gate.

Only people with an authorization given by Melilla army management are allowed to enter there.

And some Spanish tourist who are in Morocco and try to go there... must go back.


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> A military praesidium against a thriving community of 30.000. Apples and oranges


LOL


----------



## Zagor666

g.spinoza said:


> Would you "just give" a piece of your nation to others? hno:


a piece of a nation :lol: we dont talk about a spanish history museum or so,this is just a stupid piece of a rock that nobody can use.i bet that 99% of the people in spain doesn´t even know that this rock is spanish and if they do they dont care about even if the rock sinks in the sea :cheers:


----------



## alserrod

Zagor666 said:


> a piece of a nation :lol: we dont talk about a spanish history museum or so,this is just a stupid piece of a rock that nobody can use.i bet that* 99% of the people * in spain doesn´t even know that this rock is spanish and if they do they dont care about even if the rock sinks in the sea :cheers:




Outside military people maybe 99,99%

Only "Chafarinas" islands are known. It could be possible because a nice movie where the end of the story is in those islands.


----------



## g.spinoza

Zagor666 said:


> a piece of a nation :lol: we dont talk about a spanish history museum or so,this is just a stupid piece of a rock that nobody can use.i bet that 99% of the people in spain doesn´t even know that this rock is spanish and if they do they dont care about even if the rock sinks in the sea :cheers:


So? Give it away just because people don't know about its existence? You've got a very dismissive idea about nation integrity.
:nuts:

No piece of land is less important than others.


----------



## Road_UK

Well, one could argue that its not worth fighting about, if it doesn't have a strategic purpose, or if keeping it is not in the national interest for any of its citizens.

I don't really have an opinion on this...


----------



## Zagor666

g.spinoza said:


> So? Give it away just because people don't know about its existence? You've got a very dismissive idea about nation integrity.
> :nuts:
> 
> No piece of land is less important than others.


well,then in a crissis you can have this rock and i choose a ha of agricultural land that does not lay on the end of the world :cheers:
this rock realy could tomorrow sink and nobody would care


----------



## alserrod

Or this one...
https://maps.google.es/?ll=35.964669,-2.923737&spn=0.603546,1.352692&t=h&z=10

And it is part of Almeria municipality. Any other apart of people working in town hall know about that island?

Geographically is African (when you have an island you consider it is from the continent where it is nearer. As well as it is a little more near to Africa than Europe, it is an African island)


----------



## g.spinoza

alserrod said:


> Geographically is African (when you have an island you consider it is from the continent where it is nearer. As well as it is a little more near to Africa than Europe, it is an African island)


That's not true. An island is considered part of a continent if it belongs to its continental rise.

The island of Pantelleria is nearer to Africa than to Italy, but it's considered European nonetheless. Regarding the Pelagie Islands, on the other hand, Lampedusa and Lampione are African, while Linosa is European, even if all of them are nearer to Africa than Europe.


----------



## alserrod

I read the criteria I wrote.
Anyway... do not know where that island in the middle of the sea rise...


----------



## alserrod

About the Velez de la Gomera Rock... it is just a post because it is the smallest border all world wide. It wasn't a border until an earquake that made the rock island as a peninsula.

There are many little islands that sometimes you ask yourself it if serves for anything.

In the case of the Spanish islands near Morocco (please moderators, set as Banned to any Spanish military for a while...  ) I really think it serves for nothing. The two cities have their life. In fact Melilla is part of Spain before other zones in the European continent. Ceuta was initially Portuguese (yeah, close to Spain but Portuguese). Later there was the same king for both countries and when Portugal got a new king and independence, Ceuta prefered to remain Spanish.

But the other islands... I do not find any use for them. In fact they are not used even as an army base (being near of continental Spain and close to Melilla it do not worths).

Should it have an use... maybe touristic, or at least, keeping the environment. There are some of them that seems to be interesting from that point of view.


But it is not they only case about it. For instance, a little island between Canary Islands and Madeira is Portuguese and Portugal remains a few population and control there.
There is no claim about that island... but Portuguese government keeps a little population there.

I read about some of them in Central America. Countries with military in the middle of nowhere, just only because a small island.

The photo was only to show the smallest border in the world (the blue rope). The smallest that is open to traffic is at Gibraltar (iffffff... we do not consider Macau, where there is a control but same country at all)


----------



## alserrod

By the way, about islands...

This is El Hierro island, the southern and smallest in Canary island.
https://maps.google.es/?ll=27.676231,-17.528687&spn=1.320722,2.705383&t=h&z=9

Only a little more than 10.000 inhabitants there.

One local government (one island at Canary, one local government)
Delegation of Canary government
Three different municipalities
Delegation of several minitries and a lot of administrations. Let's think in any administration, doesn't matter if about traffic, economy ministry or... a lot of delegations
Some schools
One high school
One little hospital
One harbour with personnel for it
One airport with ist personnel
Customs at airport and harbour


and so on...

For instance, last autumn a volcano brusted into the sea just only 1,5 km away from the village of La Restinga (very curious... the southern village in Spain and knowed only because the vulcano) and for six months I think that half of scientific people of Spain was there with that phenomena (a new vulcano that made a mountain only 500m under waters... a little more an a new island)



In resume... how many people work for any administration in this island?. There is only 10.000 people


And we are talking about an island with population, hospital and high school...


(PS, the major of my city was judge before political career. He can say he has been overall the youngest judge in Spain, with only 26 years old. First destination he had was the near island of La Gomera)


----------



## alserrod

Another curiosity about "borders in islands"

This is Market island, between Finland and Sweeden










For a long time, the phare was in Finland and more or less 50-50% for every country.
Phare was built by Finland in 1885 in where they though it was its territory.

Some years ago they found that they were wrong!!!, Phare was in Sweeden.

And several problems:

1- Phare had no sense for Sweeden but interesting for Finland
2- They did not want to change the border in the sea coast. No special interest on the island... but let's remember that the water territory depends on countryside territory. So any change there will make part of water changing of country (and it is an important area for fishing)

After all they found how to change the border inside the island, making the phare inside Finland, but the borders in the coast remaining with no change


Solution?

This one:










Sorry, I did not find a map in English. Finland in the right, Sweeden in the left and the brown area is the phare.


And... the Swedish area is divided into part of two different provinces...





PS. Should a forumer goes there and makes photo about that international crossing, I think he will receive a very big applause!!!


----------



## DanielFigFoz

By 'phare' I presume you mean lighthouse?

And what do you mean by _but let's remember that the water territory depends on countryside territory. So any change there will make part of water changing of country_?


----------



## alserrod

Yeah..

I mean that in the way perpendicular to the coast, looking to the right in that island, it is Finish territory and looking to the left is Swedish territory.

They wanted to keep the lighthouse in Finland (they build it.... in the wrong side, and Sweeden had no interest on it).

If they change the border just 10m right or left there will be a 10m wide water strip that will change the country at the same time.

So they exchanged territories inside the island, making the lighthouse inside Finland but the points where the borders arrived the coast where exactly the same.


----------



## Zagor666

alserrod said:


> Another curiosity about "borders in islands"
> 
> This is Market island, between Finland and Sweeden
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For a long time, the phare was in Finland and more or less 50-50% for every country.
> Phare was built by Finland in 1885 in where they though it was its territory.
> 
> Some years ago they found that they were wrong!!!, Phare was in Sweeden.
> 
> And several problems:
> 
> 1- Phare had no sense for Sweeden but interesting for Finland
> 2- They did not want to change the border in the sea coast. No special interest on the island... but let's remember that the water territory depends on countryside territory. So any change there will make part of water changing of country (and it is an important area for fishing)
> 
> After all they found how to change the border inside the island, making the phare inside Finland, but the borders in the coast remaining with no change
> 
> 
> Solution?
> 
> This one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I did not find a map in English. Finland in the right, Sweeden in the left and the brown area is the phare.
> 
> 
> And... the Swedish area is divided into part of two different provinces...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS. Should a forumer goes there and makes photo about that international crossing, I think he will receive a very big applause!!!


are there border controlls for vehicles? :colgate:


----------



## alserrod

Nice question.

In the blog I read about it, they said no rocks on islands were more than 2 meters over sea level. Looking at the lighthouse, seems thrue!!


----------



## alserrod

Timoteo Dominguez is an island... besides Martin Garcia island. They are just in the end of Rio de la Plata (by the way, has this river any translation into English such Silver River)

North, Uruguay, south Argentina.

Because some sands on a little canal, the two islands are now the same.

It is almost impossible to arrive the side of Uruguay and the REALLY border (this is, at least sand, no water) is very narrow.

To the Argentinian side it is easy to arrive... it has a little airport!


In fact, it is the second narrowest border all world wide after the Velez de la Gomera rock (Spain-Morocco)




https://maps.google.es/?ll=-34.173855,-58.246722&spn=0.019279,0.042272&t=h&z=15


----------



## DanielFigFoz

To answer your question, River Plate

That's a pretty cool island!


----------



## Verso

alserrod said:


> About the Velez de la Gomera Rock... it is just a post because it is the smallest border all world wide.


This border is only about 60 metres long.


----------



## alserrod

And this one is not much longer
https://maps.google.es/?ll=48.999366,-123.002243&spn=0.122307,0.338173&t=h&z=12

(and in the US side there is a custom office and an airport)

What I wanted to say is about borders with no other alternative being there.

This is, should you want to go from Vancouver to the USA, you can go to the small corner I linked or... you can go to any other point in the looooong border.

But should you are in Velez de la Gomera and want to cross the border, no other way.

Same with the two islands Uruguay-Argentina.


----------



## Verso

alserrod said:


> But should you are in Velez de la Gomera and want to cross the border, no other way.


It's the same with Point Roberts (or that small unnamed US exclave west of Elm Point). If you want to cross the border, you can only go to Canada.


----------



## Penn's Woods

DanielFigFoz said:


> To answer your question, River Plate
> 
> That's a pretty cool island!


Isn't there a soccer (football, if you prefer) team in Buenos Aires that's called "River Plate"? (I mean, they use the English name.)

I'm not sure the English name is used for the estuary these days. If I were home, I'd check the National Geographic atlas to see how they label it.

The English Wikipedia entry uses the Spanish name, complete with the accent.

EDIT: Said Wikipedia entry does say that "in British English and the Commonwealth," "River Plate" is used. Who knew?


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> Isn't there a soccer (football, if you prefer) team in Buenos Aires that's called "River Plate"? (I mean, they use the English name.)
> 
> I'm not sure the English name is used for the estuary these days. If I were home, I'd check the National Geographic atlas to see how they label it.
> 
> The English Wikipedia entry uses the Spanish name, complete with the accent.
> 
> EDIT: Said Wikipedia entry does say that "in British English and the Commonwealth," "River Plate" is used. Who knew?




Yes, it is. And... it is the great rival of Maradona's team, Boca Juniors.

In fact, in America you can find a lot of names in Spanish and Portuguese that could have traslation into any language (and also in United States), but they do not have, they are said in original languages:

For instance, Santiago, Buenos Aires, Sao Paulo, La Paz and Los Angeles in Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia and United States.... could be translated as St. James, Good Airs, St. Paul, The Peace and The Angels.



But we could follow in the Liguistic issues thread


----------



## g.spinoza

River Plate football club has an English name because it was founded by locals who learned to play football by English sailors in Buenos Aires' harbor.


----------



## Zagor666

g.spinoza said:


> River Plate football club has an English name because it was founded by locals who learned to play football by English sailors in Buenos Aires' harbor.


yeah :cheers: you have such examples in other countrys like athletic bilbao.where ever english people have gone they founded a football club :cheers:


----------



## pobre diablo

^^

Apart from raping and plundering?


----------



## Zagor666

pobre diablo said:


> ^^
> 
> Apart from raping and plundering?


sure,when you rape and plunder the whole day you need something to relax


----------



## cinxxx

Which border crossing is better to stop and make some pictures between CZ and DE in the area of A6/D5 motorway border crossing?

http://goo.gl/maps/Z9EJj or http://goo.gl/maps/4F8DV

First one is on land, so I would drive like this http://goo.gl/maps/D8k4L
Second is a bridge, so I would drive like this http://goo.gl/maps/KLGTP


----------



## Lankosher




----------



## keokiracer

Border crossing Croatia-Bosnia








Yes, Croatia now has Streetview, have fun checking out other crossings


----------



## Vignole

^^

Right, also Andorra and Chile :cheers:


----------



## italystf

keokiracer said:


> Border crossing Croatia-Bosnia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Croatia now has Streetview, have fun checking out other crossings


Neum north?


----------



## keokiracer

^^ :yes:

EDIT: That's here: https://maps.google.nl/maps?q=42.93...7.607908&spn=0.040279,0.097504&num=1&t=h&z=14


----------



## Palance

I prefer this HR/BiH crossing 

http://maps.google.nl/maps?q=&hl=nl...mCeqHl_7DQ4D7LWDwcv2nQ&cbp=12,336.15,,0,-0.27

Passport please! 
http://maps.google.nl/maps?q=&hl=nl...=H17JbPkOxafMVJ6lr8fTGw&cbp=11,174.03,,0,9.09


----------



## alserrod

Is the first road in the middle of nowhere or just a mistake of Google?


----------



## alserrod

France / Andorra

https://maps.google.es/?ll=42.54350...=4NfkYEMTuYJ2T-HQjHHnGA&cbp=12,116.51,,0,8.04

This is the former custom at Andorra. Today there are both Andorran and French cabins some kilometres inside of France.
In fact, this custom will control only cars which take off Andorra crossing Pas de la Casa. If they cross the tunnel, there is no control with that custom cabin.

In the photo... all buildings are at Andorra... and border is exactly where any building ends. For instance, with the building ahead, border is exactly in the left of it (building space =Duty free, some metres left = French taxes).


----------



## alserrod

And, very close... this photo is still taken from France
https://maps.google.es/maps?q=pas+d...-OvsY2utKLOZrvmvU20VRA&cbp=12,209.54,,0,-2.92

Border there is in the little river. Ahead, before the tunnel on the right you will see the Andorran flag (by the way, almost the same one than Romania but with the Andorran coat of arms in the middle).

All the town over the tunnel is the ski resort Pas de la Casa. The photo of the last message is taken in the left of it.

Using the tunnel from anywhere of Andorra to the town of Pas de la Casa requires crossing France in less than one kilometre. There will be only one alternative: the little service lane in the left of the image.


----------



## zsimi80

There are 2 border crossings on this video: at 

0:35 Esztergom HUN - Párkány (Stúrovo) SVK
13:10 Ipolyszalka (Salka) SVK - Letkés HUN


----------



## Corvinus

France -> Monaco
There are several crossing points without any border facilities. Sometimes it is really difficult to know which of the countries you are actually in ...

August 2012

1.









2.









3.


----------



## OulaL

MattiG said:


> There is a number of such exclaves and pene-exclaves around the world. German Büsingen in Switzerland, Belgian Baarle-Hertog in the Netherlands, Kleinwalsertal in Austria and Alaska in the US, for example.


Yes, but driving between these exclaves and their respective "mother countries" does not involve driving through two foreign countries, let alone three.


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> Does Croats drive from Osijek to Dubrovnik via BiH?


very often, yes.


----------



## CNGL

I can think of Os de Civis, which is on mainland Spain, but it can only be accessed through Andorra. I recall finding an Italian valley that only can be reached from Switzerland.


----------



## italystf

CNGL said:


> I can think of Os de Civis, which is on mainland Spain, but it can only be accessed through Andorra. I recall finding an Italian valley that only can be reached from Switzerland.


Bagni di Craveggia. The Swiss road ends at the border, you must walk to Italy.


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> Yes, but driving between these exclaves and their respective "mother countries" does not involve driving through two foreign countries, let alone three.


Think about driving from Ceuta to Madrid without taking a ferry...


----------



## Penn's Woods

fruitfly said:


> And let us not forget Hyde, Alaska which must be road accessed from Stewart, BC, and Campobello Island, New Brunswick which must be road accessed from Lubec, Maine.


I've been to Campobello.


----------



## Penn's Woods

CNGL said:


> I can think of Os de Civis, which is on mainland Spain, but it can only be accessed through Andorra. I recall finding an Italian valley that only can be reached from Switzerland.


Isn't there a valley in Austria that's only reachable from Germany?


----------



## MattiG

Penn's Woods said:


> Isn't there a valley in Austria that's only reachable from Germany?


Kleinwalsertal.


----------



## Coccodrillo

MattiG said:


> Think about driving from Ceuta to Madrid without taking a ferry...


Sure, but it's illogic, so I wouldn't count it.


----------



## italystf

Also Jungholz (Austria) is connected to the rest of Austria only via Germany.


----------



## italystf

MattiG said:


> Think about driving from Ceuta to Madrid without taking a ferry...


You cannot cross between Morocco and Algeria, neither between Israel and Arab countries.


----------



## Road_UK

italystf said:


> You cannot cross between Morocco and Algeria, neither between Israel and Arab countries.


As far as I know the border between Israel and Jordan is open. The two countries enjoy relatively good relations.


----------



## Verso

Israel and Egypt too. Btw, you can go from Morocco to Algeria through Western Sahara and Mauritania.


----------



## italystf

But you can't enter Syria with an Israeli stamp on your passport. And Syria, as well Lybia are currently off limit because of the war.

Are there border checks between Morocco an Western Sahara? Or it's like a single country?


----------



## Verso

^^ It's like a single country (but only western Western Sahara). You can get an Israeli stamp on a piece of paper and throw it away in Jordan or Egypt. You can go through Iraq instead of Syria troll and through countries south of Libya.


----------



## alserrod

italystf said:


> But you can't enter Syria with an Israeli stamp on your passport. And Syria, as well Lybia are currently off limit because of the war.
> 
> Are there border checks between Morocco an Western Sahara? Or it's like a single country?




Single country but let's remember that Western Sahara is... on the Sahara desert. 
Last official census was made in 1974 and made about 75000 people in all that territory. Now they WOULD be 5 times more... but try to make a guess


----------



## pobre diablo

In Bulgaria the shortest way between the towns of Svilengrad and Ivaylovgrad is through Greece.


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> Single country but let's remember that Western Sahara is... on the Sahara desert.
> Last official census was made in 1974 and made about 75000 people in all that territory. Now they WOULD be 5 times more... but try to make a guess


Wikipedia says 513.000 people in 2009.

BTW, are there borders between Morocco government and Polisario front controlled areas?


----------



## Chilio

What about driving from Gibraltar to Britain (supposedly using the Eurotunnel)? You cross at least two countries Spain and France to reach from one British territory to another.


----------



## Road_UK

Chilio said:


> What about driving from Gibraltar to Britain (supposedly using the Eurotunnel)? You cross at least two countries Spain and France to reach from one British territory to another.


Did it quite a few times. Also went to Jersey a few times. Drove from London to Dover, take a ferry to Calais, drive down to St Malo and then take the ferry to St Hellier. Works out cheaper then take the ferry from Portsmouth or Southampton.


----------



## Prythen

Verso said:


> There's the Moroccan Wall between them and yes, they control it. If you wanna go to Mauritania, you have to cross the Polisario-controlled area for a few kms (gravel road).


They don't control anything. Not even the territories east of the wall, because the Polisario are around Tindouf, in Algeria.
If you want to go to Mauritania from Morocco, you'll have to cross a 4km (or so) no man's land (but this strip of land is not controlled at all by Polisario).


----------



## alserrod

And... If you do not have any stamp in your passport?

You can have a new passport because last one was expired, or just you can have gone to somewhere with no passport stamps.


----------



## Verso

Prythen said:


> They don't control anything. Not even the territories east of the wall, because the Polisario are around Tindouf, in Algeria.
> If you want to go to Mauritania from Morocco, you'll have to cross a 4km (or so) no man's land (but this strip of land is not controlled at all by Polisario).


No, but Morocco controls the "border" at the Moroccan Wall, doesn't it? It's effectively almost a border with Mauritania in that area.


----------



## alserrod

In the right downer corner Mauritania has a railway very close to the border... and it is not often to see a railway in those areas


----------



## x-type

alserrod said:


> In the right downer corner Mauritania has a railway very close to the border... and it is not often to see a railway in those areas


Mauritania is famous for its long trains which are transporting iron ore from inner part of the country to the ports


----------



## Fatfield

Alex_ZR said:


> How is possible to have two passports at the same time?


Anyone born in Northern Ireland is entitled to a British or Irish passport. Many have both.

A friend of mine was born in Australia to British parents and holds both a British & Oz passport.


----------



## Protteus

The new Mexican customs in Tijuana - San Diego Border



JAVIERCITOO said:


> Cruce fronterizo "El Chaparral" Tijuana, Baja California. por Gobierno de Baja California, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Cruce fronterizo "El Chaparral" Tijuana, Baja California. por Gobierno de Baja California, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Cruce fronterizo "El Chaparral" Tijuana, Baja California. por Gobierno de Baja California, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Cruce fronterizo "El Chaparral" Tijuana, Baja California. por Gobierno de Baja California, en Flickr
> 
> Como cuanto medira el asta de esa bandera ya que la escultura medira 60m
> , en Flickr


http://www.fllCalifornia[/url


----------



## italystf

About a month ago, I took this route between southern Burgenland and Vienna. I did a short detour and crossed 4 times the Austrian - Hungarian border.










More details of the southern part of the route:









At point A the first border crossing, from Heilingenbrunn (A) to Vasalja (H)
















No trace of old border post, just stones and signs. I think this crossing was opened after 2007.

At the border crossing B (Vasalja - Moskendorf) I re-entered Austria. Strangely, there was no sign of any kind marking the border and no trace of former border posts. Just a stone on the side of the road. So, I initially though that the border matched with the road edge and the entire road was still in Hungary. Only when I see the entry sign of Moschendorf, about 1km after the actual border, I realized I was in Austria!
So, no pics of that crossing. hno:

At point C, I crossed again into Hungary using the Eberau - Szentpérfa border crossing. This is a major crossing, with still old boots left.
View from Austria towards Hungary:

















Short stop in the city of Szombathely, to see the centre and get ride in a supermarket of some Hungarian forints that a my cousing had as left over from a trip. 
I read that during communism that city and the surronding area were off-limit for non-residents Hungarians because it was too close to the Western Europe and escaping risks were high. hno:

































I continued in direction North, towards the Austrian border, between Koszeg (H) and Mannersdorf an der Rabnitz (A) (point D on my map).


----------



## hofburg

italystf said:


> I did a short detour and crossed 4 times the Austrian - Hungarian border.


any particular reason for doing that?


----------



## italystf

hofburg said:


> any particular reason for doing that?


We visited my cousin who lives in southern Burgenland and later we went to Vienna.
The route I took was only few km longer than the trip entirely in Austria. I never went to Hungary before, I wanted to see how it looks like and how are border crossing now. I planned to fill my tank in Hungary thinking it was a lot cheaper than in Austria but it wasn't so I didn't.
I would never have done that if I had to stop at every border.


----------



## hofburg

I filled my tank for 1,37 € (!!!) (super 95) in Salzburg couple of days ago. I made it full of course.


----------



## italystf

hofburg said:


> I filled my tank for 1,37 € (!!!) (super 95) in Salzburg couple of days ago. I made it full of course.


In fact in Austria fuel is very cheap compared with their high standards of living, even cheaper than in the much poorer Hungary (where I would also be cheated on the exchange rate).


----------



## Penn's Woods

italystf said:


> We visited my cousin who lives in southern Burgenland and later we went to Vienna.
> The route I took was only few km longer than the trip entirely in Austria. I never went to Hungary before, I wanted to see how it looks like and how are border crossing now. I planned to fill my tank in Hungary thinking it was a lot cheaper than in Austria but it wasn't so I didn't.
> I would never have done that if I had to stop at every border.


It's so cool that you can do that!



italystf said:


> In fact in Austria fuel is very cheap compared with their high standards of living, even cheaper than in the much poorer Hungary (where I would also be cheated on the exchange rate).


Is Hungary really that much poorer, still? (Not doubting you; I'm just surprised to hear it.)


----------



## Attus

Penn's Woods said:


> Is Hungary really that much poorer, still? (Not doubting you; I'm just surprised to hear it.)


Yes, definitely. Visiting only the border area can make false feelings, for it is the least wealthy region of Austria and the wealthiest region of Hungary (not counting Buda), but here, too, the differences are very clear.


----------



## Lankosher

Penn's Woods said:


> Is Hungary really that much poorer, still? (Not doubting you; I'm just surprised to hear it.)


GDP per capita 2011 in Austria is almost twice as much. If EU27 = 100, Austria and Hungary are , respectively, 129 and 66.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

GDP per capita can be misleading if the cost of living is not factored in. Especially the cost of housing.


----------



## Penn's Woods

I was assuming that this long after the end of communism, the ex-Eastern bloc states would be closer to western living standards.


----------



## JackFrost

you must consider that western europe had the marshall-plan from the US, after world war 2 to ignite their economy, which eastern europe never had (because stalin forbid us to take it). after the fall of communism in '89 there was no help from anybody -> until we joined the eu in 2004, which by all means is not to be compared with something like a marshall plan.

anyway, some eastern european countries are on a good way to meet western standards some day. hungary is not among them.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

As a matter of fact the Soviets removed a lot of eastern European machinery to the Soviet Union as war reparations in the 1950s. I believe this was especially the case in Romania and Bulgaria (which were axis powers).

The 1990s were economic hardship for the post-communist countries. A lot of their economy was based on Soviet demand, which fell away after the COMECON dissolved in 1991. The former communist industry was no match for western European competition, despite wages being much lower in the post-communist countries. 

Poland was one of the first countries to emerge back at their pre-1990 level, but it was only until recent years when the economy really grew. Note that percentage growth doesn't say much if the numbers are small. 10% growth at index 010 is much smaller than 5% growth at index 100.


----------



## italystf

Attus said:


> Yes, definitely. Visiting only the border area can make false feelings, for it is the least wealthy region of Austria and the wealthiest region of Hungary (not counting Buda), but here, too, the differences are very clear.


Absolutely true.
When I crossed into Hungary for the 1st time I arrived in a village that was much different to the nearby Austria: untidy houses, tall grass on the roads' curb,... when I continued into Hungarian territory I noticed that other areas were much better than the first thing I saw. The center of Szombathely was also quite tidy. I felt like in western Europe and I got the false feeling that Hungary was doing quite well, but after reading about the situation of Eastern Hungary...
The Austrian Burgenland is very rural, very different from Tyrol, Carintia, Salzburg or Vienna regions. But absolutely not undeveloped and untidy. Austrian countryside is much better than the Italian one, with trashy road edges being a rare thing.


----------



## JackFrost

szombathely is also one of the few examples in hungary where the railway station looks very much like western europeans do, and almost meets its standards (except for the lifts of course, which are somehow still not "invented" in hungary).

but cities in the countryside in hungary generaly look quite OK. but in sopron, or my favorite example regarding this, the city of siófok -where the city itself also look very very neat and clean- you can forget about the railway stations in both cities. they just look like hell.


----------



## piotr71

In the communist era Hungary was considered as a much richer country than Poland. I remember my jealousy when crossing CSRS-Hungarian border in eighties. They had watermelons, peaches and oranges in their shops and it was not Christmas. 
-----

Another ex-iron curtain border.










IMGP1205 by 71piotr, on Flickr

Still in Austria. Hence the board in Slovak.

IMGP1223 by 71piotr, on Flickr

Pretty colourfully here.

IMGP1232 by 71piotr, on Flickr

Next pictures will be posted with picasa. Sorry for the mess, but I have lost flickr's pics somewhere.


----------



## JackFrost

piotr71 said:


> In the communist era Hungary was considered as a much richer country than Poland. I remember my jealousy when crossing CSRS-Hungarian border in eighties. They had watermelons, peaches and oranges in their shops and it was not Christmas.


yes, i have heard that stories from my parents. as for me, as far as i can remember, hungary was always poor. no, we hungarians, definately have not yet understand what capitalism is about...


----------



## hofburg

I also crossed that border crossing once.


----------



## piotr71

*(D)(A)*










Older bit of A8 in Germany.














As you can see there is ATM built in the booth. Strangely, you can't use Visa there.


----------



## hofburg

oh, the scheissebahn! 



> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7108/7853309286_a4c844fd8a_c.jpg


this sign must be new.


----------



## piotr71

Scheissebahn? Warum?


----------



## hofburg

autobahn A8 zwischen Inntal und Salzburg ist sehr schleht


----------



## piotr71

It's not that bad, in my opinion. Yes, there are some really old stretches of A8, however if considering their age, calling them 'schlechte' or 'scheisse' would not be right. They are just old.


----------



## hofburg

they are old, but also bad. we don't live in 50s anymore  how about some pavement change? or added shoulder?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's chiefly the alignment and design standards that are outdated, not the road pavement.


----------



## hofburg

yes, not outdated, but at least mediocre.

this is good pavement:


DSC09470 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr

and this is mediocre:


13092011099 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Yes, but, in either case, the crash barriers are...lacking in shininess.


----------



## hofburg

^trolling the wrong guy


----------



## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Yes, but, in either case, the crash barriers are...lacking in shininess.


LOL


----------



## Penn's Woods

hofburg said:


> ^trolling the wrong guy


I know that; it was just a stupid little joke.


----------



## hofburg

no hard feelings


----------



## Gorky




----------



## x-type

piotr71 said:


> In the communist era Hungary was considered as a much richer country than Poland. I remember my jealousy when crossing CSRS-Hungarian border in eighties. They had watermelons, peaches and oranges in their shops and it was not Christmas.


and we in Yugoslavia were utopia for both


----------



## Zagor666

x-type said:


> and we in Yugoslavia were utopia for both


 :cheers:


----------



## riiga

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Yes, but, in either case, the crash barriers are...lacking in shininess.


You should see the Struma motorway then! :lol:


----------



## Chilio

hofburg said:


> yes, not outdated, but at least mediocre.
> ...
> and this is mediocre:
> 
> 
> 13092011099 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


If only more of EE motorway's pavements looked like this mediocre one... I can not imagine what words you will use for most of the pavements of older stretches of motorways in BG for example...


----------



## hofburg

relativity also applies.  this 'quality' is bad for the best EU economy, it might be acceptable in some other country.


----------



## Chilio

Major reconstruction of Kapitan Andreevo (main border crossing between Bulgaria and Turkey and also one of the most important between Europe and Asia) has started Wednesday. The cost of the reconstruction is above 52 mln leva (some €27 mln). The reconstruction will last more than 2 years, and will be divided by stages, so the building process wont hinder the work of the customs and border controls, but will difficult the traffic. 
Most of the nowadays buildings will be destroyed and built newer modern ones. The sheds will be elongated, with more gates/barriers to be added. After completing the reconstruction the border crossing point will have 36 paths in each direction and also it's own medical center and fire brigade.
Statistics show more than 1000 heavy trucks and some 3000 cars and buses pass daily through the border crossing.

Source: http://btvnews.bg/bulgaria/kapitan-andreevo-e-v-mashchaben-remont.html
Video included in this sourse (in Bulgarian): http://images.btv.bg/vod/2012/11/07/dcdc5a14de_61039066.mp4


----------



## Palance

Chilio said:


> Major reconstruction of Kapitan Andreevo (main border crossing between Bulgaria and Turkey and also one of the most important between Europe and Asia)


I am very sure that Asia really does not start at this border crossing.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Don't tell that to Nicolas Sarkozy (sorry, couldn't resist).


----------



## Mar00y

Tijuana border crossing is said to be one of the busiest in the world.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Chilio said:


> Statistics show more than 1000 heavy trucks and some 3000 cars and buses pass daily through the border crossing.


4.000 vehicles per day. That's not a whole lot... Border procedures must be very slow if they need 36 gates to process that amount of vehicles.



Palance said:


> I am very sure that Asia really does not start at this border crossing.


Technically it does, since there is no other border crossing until you reach Asia.


----------



## Chilio

ChrisZwolle said:


> 4.000 vehicles per day. That's not a whole lot... Border procedures must be very slow if they need 36 gates to process that amount of vehicles.


They are, really. Because it will be not only the gate of EU to non-EU country, but also an outer Schengen border... And being a main Asia-Europe route, it is also a main route for drugs and other illegal trafficking. I think some of the biggest amounts of drugs trying to enter EU are held there. Other special thing is, that as you probably know the "gastarbeiters" or nowadays EU citizens with Turkish descent usually travel with cars/minivans maximum full of luggage, luggage boxes on roof etc, whole families with numerous children etc. So checking one such car sometimes may need the time normally is needed to check 5-6 cars on other border crossings. It is not the usual routine check...


----------



## alserrod

Maybe something like this, isn't it?


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> Technically it does, since there is no other border crossing until you reach Asia.


That's like saying the Russian-North Korean border crossing is a border crossing between Europe and Asia.  And 36 gates is a monstrosity.


----------



## Chilio

Ok. Correct sentence would be "one of the main border crossings* on one of the main the routes *between Europe and Asia". But hey, do you expect to have a border crossing on one of the Bosphorus bridges in Istanbul or on the ferryboats? Entering the small European part of Turkey means you're free to move to Asia. And most of the traffic through Kapitan Andreevo goes there. It is the last border crossing when you leave Europe toward Asia, it's the first when goods and traffic from Asia enters Europe and EU.

alserrod, it's more like this:


----------



## Verso

Chilio said:


> It is the last border crossing when you leave Europe toward Asia, it's the first when goods and traffic from Asia enters Europe and EU.


That would be the Istanbul Atatürk Airport. :troll: Or perhaps some maritime border crossing in Istanbul?


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> And 36 gates is a monstrosity.


actually, now there are also more than 30 gates there, but probably all are never operating in the same moment.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

36 gates in each direction  That's 72 total.


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> 36 gates in each direction  That's 72 total.


oh, sorry. i thought it was about both direction.


----------



## Verso

72? Damn.


----------



## Chilio

Actually, I don't trust too much what Bulgarian journalist say/write. It can be a misinformation, as officials may have said 36 in both ways, not in each way, but journalist may have not understood it correctly


----------



## CNGL

I've checked it in Google Earth (It's the one on E80 near BG/GR/TR tripoint), and it seems to have only 36 lanes. So ChrisZwolle was confused. If it really had 72 lanes, it would have been far larger than the toll plaza on E54 Southeast of Paris.


----------



## Verso

^^ I doubt there're exactly 36 lanes now. We're talking about the future.


----------



## gmacruyff

When the motorways in Bulgaria are finished,traffic wiil double,hence the amount of gates will double!(eliminate bottlenecks).


----------



## alserrod

Are customs so strong coming from Turkey?


----------



## pobre diablo

CNGL said:


> I've checked it in Google Earth (It's the one on E80 near BG/GR/TR tripoint), and it seems to have only 36 lanes. So ChrisZwolle was confused. If it really had 72 lanes, it would have been far larger than the toll plaza on E54 Southeast of Paris.


In the article it says there will be 72 lanes after the reconstruction. On the Bulgarian side thecrossing ismuch smaller than the Turkish side and that creates bottlenecks. 72 lanes seems crazy though.


----------



## pobre diablo

alserrod said:


> Are customs so strong coming from Turkey?


It's an external EU border. The least they do is check your passport in the system.


----------



## Palance

That is not standard procedures when entering the EU or Schengen. The last time I entered Slovenia from Croatia, I could immediately drive through without any check. A Dutch licence plate and a very nice friendly face were enough, I think


----------



## Chilio

Yes, the procedures are usually more relaxed for EU-citizens, although the former gastarbeiters are specific EU citizens. And often in their cars and minivans are discovered such things |(all pictures are from Kapitan Andreevo border crossing):

heroin in LPG tank









heroin under seats









gold hidden in bags with clothes









Illegal immigrants (this time three Syrians) in double-back of bus (very often also in car trunks etc.)









Cigarettes in bread









But of course, biggest quantities are held in trucks:



















And these are unfortunately not few separate cases but happens almost daily. That's why just an EU car license plate and a nice smile isn't enough.


----------



## MattiG

Palance said:


> That is not standard procedures when entering the EU or Schengen. The last time I entered Slovenia from Croatia, I could immediately drive through without any check. A Dutch licence plate and a very nice friendly face were enough, I think


It should be the standard procedure. The Schengen external border is to be kept hard. Every such a case not following the policy reduces the credibility of the system, and makes its existence questionable.


----------



## italystf

About a year ago a Serbian truck filled with illegally-carried guns and other firearms was discovered during a random check at the SLO-I border at Fernetti. This show how well patrolled is the external Schengen border. 

When I entered Schengen area in 2008 after a holiday in Croatia, cars were let flow quickly at the Rupa border crossing (just a look at IDs), but a Polish van was stopped for a while and inspected on the rightmost gate.


----------



## italystf

Chilio said:


> Cigarettes in bread


There's no need to smuggle 2-3 packs of cigs hidden in that way. It's a quantity you can carry legally for yourself. Those packs were probably filled with something else than tobacco.


----------



## Chilio

It's not said that it was only one such bread  They may have had a whole van full of bread  Anyway, I'm too lazy now to search for the news article, to find out...


----------



## OulaL

MattiG said:


> It should be the standard procedure. The Schengen external border is to be kept hard. Every such a case not following the policy reduces the credibility of the system, and makes its existence questionable.


I agree, although Croatia will join the EU anyway next year. We'll see how soon it will join the Schengen agreement.

Will there be same kind of problems at Croatia-Serbia and Croatia-BiH-borders? And further on and on until the whole old Yugoslavia has joined?


----------



## italystf

OulaL said:


> I agree, although Croatia will join the EU anyway next year. We'll see how soon it will join the Schengen agreement.
> 
> Will there be same kind of problems at Croatia-Serbia and Croatia-BiH-borders? And further on and on until the whole old Yugoslavia has joined?


Yes. Croatia won't join Schengen soon for this reason. Currently its border checks are too lax, especially in the Neum corridor. They should build a bridge or a fenced motorway with no junctions with Bosnian roads.


----------



## Road_UK

italystf said:


> Yes. Croatia won't join Schengen soon for this reason. Currently its border checks are too lax, especially in the Neum corridor. They should build a bridge or a fenced motorway with no junctions with Bosnian roads.


There used to be a road like that going from the Netherlands to the Netherlands through Germany. It used to be a Dutch road, you were not able to come off or get on in Germany. The Niederländische Durchgangsstraße it was called. Obviously now after Schengen it's a proper German road with roundabouts, so the German locals can use it as well.


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> There used to be a road like that going from the Netherlands to the Netherlands through Germany. It used to be a Dutch road, you were not able to come off or get on in Germany. The Niederländische Durchgangsstraße it was called. Obviously now after Schengen it's a proper German road with roundabouts, so the German locals can use it as well.


Also the Osimo road in Slovenia, connecting Solkan and Podsabotin (near Nova Gorica) through Italy. Even with Schengen, it's still unconnected with the Italian network.


----------



## Road_UK

Road signs and lay-out remains Slovenian?


----------



## 7kuna

Road_UK said:


> There used to be a road like that going from the Netherlands to the Netherlands through Germany. It used to be a Dutch road, you were not able to come off or get on in Germany. *The Niederländische Durchgangsstraße* it was called. Obviously now after Schengen it's a proper German road with roundabouts, so the German locals can use it as well.


This is interesting, where is that road on the map?


----------



## keokiracer

I think it's this one


----------



## Road_UK

keokiracer said:


> I think it's this one


Yes, that's the one.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^I knew there was a similar situation (with a railroad, though, rather than a road) along the German/Belgian border - a Belgian railroad that cuts through German territory.

When I scrolled down to find it, look how they treat the border: https://maps.google.nl/maps?hl=nl&ll=50.648372,6.182899&spn=0.110806,0.219383&t=m&z=12


----------



## 7kuna

keokiracer said:


> I think it's this one




thanks, it's strange at first because Netherlands dont have enclave like Croatia for this type of road.


----------



## Verso

No, but you're faster this way.


----------



## MattiG

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^I knew there was a similar situation (with a railroad, though, rather than a road) along the German/Belgian border - a Belgian railroad that cuts through German territory.


The trackbed of the Vennbahn still carries the sovereignty of Belgium, even if the railroad was brought down several years ago.

The arrangement is based on the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. The text of the threaty did not address one importanty aspect: Close to Kalterherberg, the road L106 goes under a railway viaduct. As the treaty does not tell anything about the area under the trackbed, it is unclear whether the road under the viaduct is in Germany or in Belgium.


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> Road signs and lay-out remains Slovenian?


Yes.


----------



## hofburg

01:53


----------



## Verso

Does Turkey sign any city in Bulgaria or Greece (like it signs Aleppo and Batumi) or just border crossings like Kapıkule, Dereköy and İpsala?









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/43318716


----------



## Tachi

In the very early days there were yellow sign with Selanik and Sofya at the junction where the former E5 split into E5n and E5s.
Today I haven't seen them anymore. Only this one at Kesan but that's the name of a country and not a city and somewhere towards border crossing Pazarkule-Kastanies I remember to have seen a yellow sign Bati Trakya (Western Thrace). There seems to be no standard for this.


----------



## Verso

^^ Nice. What about Bulgaristan?


----------



## Broccolli

I dont know if you guys know this but Turks have their name for each balkan country :lol:
For instance Serbia-Serbistan, Bulgaria- Bulgaristan, Croatia- Hrvatistan, etc....they only dont have their name for Slovenia so they call it..... Slovenia


----------



## Verso

Sloven*y*a. Anyway, -stan just means land, so Bulgarian Land, Serbian Land etc. I love Hırvatistan though.  (pronounced like Hrvatistan, AFAIK)


----------



## hofburg

so according to Turkey, Slo is a country without a land. well, not far from the truth.


----------



## Verso

That would be a shot in their own knee since they call themselves Türkiye. But yes, even the tiny European part of Turkey (3% of the entire country) is bigger than Slovenia.


----------



## Verso

I've found Bulgaristan. 









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/69529305

And Burgas.


----------



## pobre diablo

Verso said:


> Sloven*y*a. Anyway, -stan just means land, so Bulgarian Land, Serbian Land etc. I love *Hırvatistan* though.  (pronounced like Hrvatistan, AFAIK)


It's pronounced with a vowel between H and R. Same as in Bulgarian хЪрватия.


----------



## pobre diablo

Broccolli said:


> I dont know if you guys know this but Turks have their name for each balkan country :lol:
> For instance Serbia-Serbistan, Bulgaria- Bulgaristan, Croatia- Hrvatistan, etc....they only dont have their name for Slovenia so they call it..... Slovenia


Albania is Arnavutluk :lol: It sounds like a neighborhood.


----------



## Verso

pobre diablo said:


> It's pronounced with a vowel between H and R. Same as in Bulgarian хЪрватия.


You mean schwa (ə)? Yes, that's what I meant, "Hrvatska" is also pronounced with a schwa (Hərvatska, Hərvatistan), unless you can pronounce it without it.


----------



## pobre diablo

^^

Ъ is not a schwa, but a vowel in it's own right, unlike in Croatian.


----------



## Alex_ZR

I think that only countries that used to be under Turkish rule have suffix -istan.


----------



## Palance

MattiG said:


> It should be the standard procedure. The Schengen external border is to be kept hard. Every such a case not following the policy reduces the credibility of the system, and makes its existence questionable.


Yes, it should be, but it does not only happen this way on the Slovene border. The last time I arrived by ferry from England (Hull-Rotterdam), even the Dutch police was hardly interested in stopping me when they saw a Dutch car en Dutch passports. And arriving on our airports (Amsterdam and Rotterdam) is not impressive either when coming from a non-Schengen country.


----------



## Palance

italystf said:


> Yes. Croatia won't join Schengen soon for this reason. Currently its border checks are too lax, especially in the Neum corridor. They should build a bridge or a fenced motorway with no junctions with Bosnian roads.


Do I hear Pelješac bridge?


----------



## italystf

Palance said:


> Do I hear Pelješac bridge?


Yup. Works started few years ago but were halted for lack of money.


----------



## alserrod

levaniX said:


> ^^ 3rd photo reminded me of typical russian provincional town, i thought there's a orthodox church on the picture. As well, as those commieblocks enhance that impression


Now you have a McDonalds
:cheers:


----------



## pobre diablo

x-type said:


> BIH will never agree with it because they hope to have MSC Splendida one day in that shallow bay.


But why do they need Bosnian approval since it would connect Croatian lands over Croatian waters?


----------



## Verso

^^ Free passage.



italystf said:


> Commanded by the captain Francesco Schettino.


You don't need him to get stranded there. :lol:


----------



## stickedy

bogdymol said:


> I always considered that this would be the best option.
> 
> Do you know from a reliable source that this will be the final solution?


This is not the final solution. The whole situation is this:

1. In 2007 building the bridge was started
2. Because of financial problems the works were stopped in 2010
3. In May 2012 all contracts for building the bridge ware canceled. To be able to avoid BiH territory beginning from July 1st 2013, a ferry line should be established on the location were the bridge should be build
4. The possibility to build a motorway through BiH was now officially considered.
5. Somehow surprising, the EU financed a feasibility study for the bridge, most likely for EU funding of the whole project.

So, time is ticking away (to July 1st 2013 when Croatia joins EU), and there is currently no ferry line established or works done for that project, there are no real plans of a motorway through BiH except some general talks about the possibility (with no results) and there is now just a feasibility study done for a bridge which had already been started to be built and was canceled... Great show


----------



## pobre diablo

What about an undersea tunnel?


----------



## bogdymol

pobre diablo said:


> What about an undersea tunnel?


Or better, a tunnel under BiH


----------



## CNGL

How about making a corridor so the E65 motorway would be always in Croatia, like that Belgian railroad in Germany?


----------



## alserrod

That case is historical and taken when borders were set (the special case is when you are in a tunnel under the railway... are you in Belgium or in Germany????????). In this case it is so clear in which country you are.

Supposing I'd be someone of Bosnian government I'd allow for a fenced motorway on condition that a fuel station would be set there...


----------



## F81

A fenced motorway could have also an exit in BiH, provided after the slipways there's border post & customs?


----------



## Zanovijetalo

All above mentioned options are around for a while. The problem is that Bosnia is so complex - their Croat politicians have different views on this than Bosniak or Serb politicians. Hard to set a deal there.

Bridge is really the only solution. It needs to be high enough so it won't block Bosnia access to international sea waters and that's it.


----------



## stickedy

Yep, building a bridge is the most rational solution for the problem.

And never forget: What's the advantage for BiH to have a extraterritorial motorway build through it's territory? Right: Nothing... So, Croatia has to give something to BiH that would be useful to both entities (to make that deal happen) - and except for money I can't think of much more. So, make your own opinion on this problem


----------



## Verso

stickedy said:


> What's the advantage for BiH to have a extraterritorial motorway build through it's territory?


Good connection of Neum with Split and Dubrovnik. But we should go back to border crossings, this is better discussed in the Croatian or Bosnian thread.


----------



## alserrod

I want to post pictures posted by forumer efren here
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=97650437&postcount=3426


In the Spanish forum there is a thread about city pictures taken from air.

In the case of the post, Ayamonte, is in the whole border, and part of the pictures shows Portugal


For instance, in the first picture, a little corner in the left is Portugal and in the second picture, left = Portugal, right = Spain.

As far as I known, the bridge was opened in 1992 (5th centenary of America discovery) and it was planned with no border cabins





efren said:


>


----------



## KRX_69

Some photos of Ayamonte border between Portugal and Spain.


















































































:cheers:


----------



## alserrod

BTW... They write "foreings" in Portuguese, Spanish, English and French. Taking care of the possition of the border... maybe in Arabic would be more interesting than French or English (can it be the southern Schengen border?)


----------



## KRX_69

They could also be placed in German and Dutch, as this area of Spain and Portugal is much visited by tourists from these countries.


----------



## x-type

yeah, and why not Chinese since it is one of the most spoken languages in the world?


----------



## CNGL

I would put it in Klingon and in Sanvicenti Catalan :troll:.


----------



## hofburg

then only Sheldon would understand


----------



## keokiracer

x-type said:


> yeah, and why not Chinese since it is one of the most spoken languages in the world?


Because there aren't many Chinese tourists driving there by car.


----------



## Alqaszar

OT

"Yugoslavia was a country of heroes. The successor states are just farts in the wind." (unknown wise man, circa 1993, Osijek... or was it Sarajevo?)

For example, do Croats even shit in red-white checkers? Same would go for every other post-YU nation, but it's too stupid to think of similar sarcastic jokes. And in the face of war, even sarcasm falls short.

But of course, every post-Yugoslav "nation" was the best one, the holiest one, the most peace-loving ever, while the others of course only consisted of terrorists and mass murderes who won't leave "us" in peace. Of course "our" own super-national-independence-flag heroes had heroically to fight those ruthless evil forces of pure badness, and thats why all the others have to go in front of the Hague tribunal, but not "our" beloved war heores, which protected our super-holy, hyper-independent republic.

And what does The Hague? Let's one of those assholes go. Ok, again the Croats (all the Croats reading this will surely get a red-chequered face, while their brains locked in HRVATSKAHRVATSKAHRVATSKA-mode for a while). I'm really sorry, but it was your asshole that went free despite he took part in the war -- which is the actual crime: that there was a war at the first place; and not who killed who for what pretended national reason.

So, now even the shininess of crashbarriers can't be discussed without a nationalistic undertone. And if reality wasn't bad enough, "nations" like Kosovo pop up, like a caricature of the whole post-Yugoslav mess.

Guys, really?

Are you so proud of your highly-independent-national border checkpoints as symbols of you existence? Hell, you could drive from Ljubljana to Skopje without a single border crossing once! And while Europe got rid of its blood-soaked lines which divided the nations and countries once you errected brand new ones! With even more blood to soake them in!

Yes, I know, it was the other ones, not your super-duper-nation of Slowenia/Croatia/Bosnia/Serbia/Whateveria. It's always the other ones.

I'm really sory for this completely off topic entry, but I just had to write it down. I once pissed against a border stone on the Belgian-German border. It was in the middle of a forest, I could have chosen every tree, but it just felt great. And I made sure I soaked both coat of arms equally, so that I wouldn't start a war accidently.

And I didn't want to go just on the ground. It could have been the place where an American soldier died who fought there 70 years ago, against nationalism, for real freedom, so that I could do what I did at that very place in that very moment.

/OT


----------



## x-type

Alqaszar said:


> OT
> 
> bla bla
> 
> /OT


what the hell does Croatia have with that Serbia-Kosovo thing?


----------



## Arbenit

Alqaszar said:


> OT
> 
> ...
> 
> /OT


You should not talk about things that you have no idea of.

BTW this is all off-topic.


----------



## cinxxx

OK, if we are on Yugoslavia, let's post some border crossings involving it 

Austria-Slovenia at Karawanke Tunnel


AUT_A11 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_A11 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_A11 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_A11 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_A11 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_A11 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_A11 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_A11 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_A11 - Karavanken Tunnel by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_A11 - Karavanken Tunnel by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_A11/SLO_A2 - Karavanken Tunnel by cinxxx, on Flickr

Slovenia


SLO_A2 by cinxxx, on Flickr


SLO_A2 by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

*SLO/Jelšane -HR/Rupa*


SLO/Jelšane -HR/Rupa by cinxxx, on Flickr


SLO/Jelšane -HR/Rupa by cinxxx, on Flickr


SLO/Jelšane -HR/Rupa by cinxxx, on Flickr


SLO/Jelšane -HR/Rupa by cinxxx, on Flickr


SLO/Jelšane -HR/Rupa by cinxxx, on Flickr


SLO/Jelšane -HR/Rupa by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## alserrod

by the way... is the SLO/AUT tunnel quite expensive?


----------



## OulaL

alserrod said:


> by the way... is the SLO/AUT tunnel quite expensive?


€6.50 for cars each way. In addition you'll need the motorway vignettes for both countries, unless you exit the motorway right after the tunnel. (The tunnel itself isn't a motorway, though.)

For more information, see the motorway toll operators http://www.asfinag.at/ and http://www.dars.si/


----------



## Gadiri

> *The “Completion of the Central Section of the Trans-Maghreb Motorway Axis​”*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This project will provide a continuous motorway corridor from Agadir, Morocco to Ras Ajdir, Libya that will improve regional integration and socio-economic development by facilitating trade relations and the mobility of the population of the region.*
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> The completion of the missing links in Morocco and Tunisia to connect the central section of the trans-Maghreb motorway axis, namely the Algerian, Moroccan and Tunisian national motorway networks, will provide a continuous motorway corridor from Agadir, Morocco to Ras Ajdir, Libya that will improve regional integration and socio-economic development by facilitating trade relations and the mobility of the population of the region.
> 
> 
> During the UfM Senior Officials meeting held in Brussels on *10th February 2012, the UfM member States adopted the Completion of the Central Section of Maghreb Motorway Axis Projec*t. The project proposal presented by CETMO, the Technical Secretariat of the Group of Transport Ministers of the Western Mediterranean (GTMO 5+5), aims to complete the missing links of the Central Section of the Trans-Maghreb Motorway Axis thus linking the Algerian, Moroccan and Tunisian national motorway networks to provide a continuous motorway corridor from Agadir (Morocco) to Ras Jedir (Tunisian-Libyan border).
> 
> The sections to be completed by the construction of a *dual carriageway motorway with at least two lanes running parallel to the Maghreb coast are Oujda (Morocco) - Algerian border (22 Km), and Bou Salem (Tunisia) - Algerian border (80 Km).*
> 
> In conjunction with the completion of the infrastructure in progress, the Central Maghreb countries are willing to work together in a coordinated manner within the existing consultation frameworks, such as the GTMO 5+5 and the Arab Maghreb Union (AMU), for the success of coordinated management of the axis and to give it complete interoperability and a high quality service that shares the same standards all along the axis.
> 
> The project will enhance regional integration and socio-economic development by facilitating mobility of the population of the region, trade and business opportunities. It will improve transport conditions, reducing travel times and the number of accidents, and it is foreseen that a high percentage of the population of these three countries will benefit from this connection.
> 
> The project will, on the other hand, strengthen the trans-Maghreb motorway axis for it is part of the Trans-Mediterranean Transport Network (TMN-T) and a major Maghreb road corridor, and consequently, is of strategic importance to the Euro-Mediterranean region.
> 
> The importance of the trans-Maghreb motorway has been recognized in various international platforms. In 1990 the AMU defined the Motorway for the Maghreb Union as a project of paramount importance for the region. In the MOU signed in 2008 between the AMU and the Group of Transport Ministers of Western Mediterranean (GTMO 5+5), the two organizations undertook to promote the completion of this motorway. In 2009 at the sixth GTMO 5+5 Ministerial Conference a decision was made to intensify efforts to complete the missing links in the motorway.
> 
> It is also worth pointing out that the project falls within the priority areas of the UfM Secretariat, namely the creation of coastal motorways, as identified by the Heads of State and Government in the Paris Declaration, and those covered by the Secretariat's Work Program. The project proposal not only has strong co-ownership by the involvement of three governments namely Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia, where the project will be implemented, it also foresees both public and private sector participation.
> 
> With the realization of this project the motorway interconnection between the three countries of Maghreb namely Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia will be complete and the project's outcome will have a multiplying effect for the rest of the Mediterranean region and for Europe as a whole, enabling increased mobility among the population and facilitating international freight flows.



http://www.ufmsecretariat.org/en/co...reb-motorway-axis”-to-enhance-regional-trade/


----------



## Road_UK

Alqaszar said:


> OT
> 
> Mimimimimimimimimi
> 
> /OT


I only find this bit where you said you pissed on a border stone once interesting.


----------



## pai nosso

alserrod said:


> Quite, quite, quite cool!!!! Are yours those photos???????
> 
> Are they border controls or just a cabin?



No, the fotos aren`t mine!!!


I hope in the future to go there!!


I can`t honelesty teel you, with South Africa, they must have real border controls. Some years ago there were news that there was imigration problems between South Africa and Mozambique!!


----------



## Chilio

On December 17th there will be governmental meeting between Bulgaria and Greece. Among all the topics to be discussed, prime minister Borissov also said, that on that day will be announced the date for opening of the long-awaited border pass at Makaza through the Rhodopes mountain. 









The road to the new border crossing included some very serious construction works both on Bulgarian side:









...and on Greek side:


----------



## g.spinoza

please reduce first pic... it's huge


----------



## Chilio

Already did that, sorry


----------



## alserrod

Mixed Spanish and Police patrols will go around borders between both countries.
Even if this fact will keep respecting the territory of each country (mainly because lawing issues and those stuffs), three teams from each country will go around roads near the border.
At least in the central Pyrenees, where the notice was found. And in fact, there are three international borders (one of them, E-07 can be crossed both by tunnel or by mountain pass... or skiing such I posted several days ago)

Policemen will remain with their uniforms and legal police weapon wherever they would be and will drive in cars with both logos from each police.


I found only one on-line newspaper with the information. This is the link. It is a little newspaper written in Aragonese, a language that comes from Latin but it could be the less spoken language in Europe.
http://www.arredol.com/patrullas-conchuntas-entre-a-policia-espanyola-y-a-francesa-en-os-pirineus/


I made a summary and this is the link. I encourage anyone from a Latin language country to try to understand it... and I am almost sure you will understand part of the news (even if you are from Romania, Italy... one student of Arts showed me a list of several words in several Latin languages and the fact that sometimes languages spoken far away had very close words)

(by the way... CNGL... you are obviously out of the poll to know how many forumers from Latin languages countries can understand it    )


----------



## El Tiburon

alserrod said:


> I encourage anyone from a Latin language country to try to understand it...


The only word I didn't understand at first was "muga" but then, from the context, I figured it meant "border'.


----------



## g.spinoza

To me, native Italian speaker, it's not that difficult.


----------



## alserrod

As far as I will be able I will post pictures of those mix-police cars

By the way... "muga" could be the only word that doesn't come from Latin but from Basque (where there are borders with Basque speaking area). It obviously means border.


----------



## CNGL

alserrod said:


> (by the way... CNGL... you are obviously out of the poll to know how many forumers from Latin languages countries can understand it    )


I look for exotic languages, so I prefer Ladin


----------



## Road_UK

alserrod said:


> As far as I will be able I will post pictures of those mix-police cars
> 
> By the way... "muga" could be the only word that doesn't come from Latin but from Basque (where there are borders with Basque speaking area). It obviously means border.


Please do.


----------



## shpirtkosova




----------



## Palance

0:51 A Serbian car with KM (Kosovska Mitrovica)plates. I thought they were forbidden in Kosovo?

More on-topic: Good to see that it is possible to have joint border crossing facilities, which would be impossible some years ago.


----------



## stickedy

Where is that border crossing?


----------



## shpirtkosova

Merdare, Its in the northern town of Podujevë.


----------



## Chilio

As expected, the topic was discussed on the prime ministers' meeting:


> *Makaza checkpoint on Bulgarian-Greek border to be opened in March 2013*
> 17 December 2012 | 15:33 | FOCUS News Agency
> Home / Southeast Europe and Balkans
> Athens. Makaza checkpoint on the Bulgarian-Greek border will be opened in March 2013, Bulgarian and Greek prime ministers Boyko Borisov and Antonis Samaras agreed at the second joint meeting of their government in Athens, FOCUS News Agency’s Denka Katsarska reports.
> “The site will finish in March 2013, i.e. three months later. A new and modern checkpoint will be opened and it will ease the communication between the two countries, as well as tourism. I can assure you that the issue will be over by the end of March,” said Antonis Samaras.


----------



## Chilio

Fresh update in Google Earth from November 11th from the region of Bulgarian-Turkish border near Kapitan Andreevo. It shows enormous queues of trucks on both sides, especially on Turkish side. Which shows why they plan the reconstruction of the border-crossing with 36 gates each side.


----------



## Palance

Borders Netherlands-Germany

The Nieuwstraat-Neustrasse (location) is partly Dutch (Kerkrade), partly German (Herzogenrath). 2 pictures whilst driving on the Dutch side, oncoming traffic is in the German side.



















Until the 90's, a low wall seperated both cities. On the roundabout an old piece still can be found (and marks the border)










Tripoint Netherlands-Belgium-Germany

Seen from German side:









Seen from Belgian(right)-Dutch(left) border, the trees are in Germany









Seen from Belgian(left, front)-German(right) border. The border is marked here by thin green lines. The remaining small piece is Dutch










Vaals-Aachen (NL-DE)
Standing on the border: The cars left are in Germany, the building right is Dutch









Entering Germany by car









Here starts Bundesstrasse 1









Aachen: So close to the border there are signs for the neighbouring countries.

Parking lot: To City Centre or to the Netherlands









Ovals and cities in the neighbouring countries in Aachen


----------



## hofburg

Palance said:


> Standing on the border: The cars left are in Germany, the building right is Dutch
> http://border.autosnelwegen.net/pix/0035-07.jpg


dutch registered cars though


----------



## Palance

Free parking on the German side and paid parking on the Dutch side 

Border related: The bus stop is in the Netherlands (some kilometers from the border), the sign is German, and line 396 is a Belgian line


----------



## alserrod

OK. Some stuff for New Year's Eve

Where is the shorter international bridge?

If you go to the surroundings of Lake Ontario they will say this one is the international shorter bridge around the world:











And they painted both US and Canadian flags on it










But... IT IS NOT an international bridge.

Despite any advertisment for tourism, both islands are in Canada!!!

They are Zavikon Islands and you can check here that both are inside Canada 
https://maps.google.es/maps?q=Zavik...Ontario,+Canadá&t=h&hnear=Zavikon+Island&z=16

(and checked with an official US map about that corner is not part of the US)


----------



## alserrod

So... where could be find the shorter international bridge around the world, indeed?

That could be a nice proposal for Jan and the one-on-one prize, isn't it?


Reading a blog, there are mainly two applicants.


Number 1. O Marco (PT) - Marco (ES)










Left Portugal, Right Spain.

No google street view. This are panoramio pictures
https://maps.google.es/maps?q=marco...01,-7.169716&cbp=12,0,,0,0&photoid=po-9215864



Number 2. CZ - PL very near to the trifinium with Germany











And this is location on Google street view


Number 3: Rionor (P) - Rihonor de Castilla (E)










Picture taken from Portugal through Spain.


No street view... just Panoramio

https://maps.google.es/maps?q=Rihon...2,-6.616935&cbp=12,0,,0,0&photoid=po-17633093


Photos are taken from this blog. Despite it is written in Spanish, be sure that with any translator you will read it easily.
Feel free to write that blogger. He speaks English an French.
http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com/2012/12/31/el-puente-internacional-mas-corto-del-mundo/


He said he doesn't know exactly the distance of every bridge except for number one where it is exactly 3,20m.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

There's a Portuguese blog about borders as well, sometimes I post information from there here. I meant to go on there yesterday but forgot, thanks for reminding me!


----------



## alserrod

Please, post the blog address and I will try to have a look these days.

Tx in advance.


----------



## piotr71

Bridges? I know 2. One is really short and both are located here.

(PL)(CZ)
This one is very short, maybe 3 meters.










(PL)(SK)
The other one is much longer but still interesting.


----------



## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> OK. Some stuff for New Year's Eve
> 
> Where is the shorter international bridge?
> 
> If you go to the surroundings of Lake Ontario they will say this one is the international shorter bridge around the world:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And they painted both US and Canadian flags on it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....


I'm wondering what's with the Dutch flag halfway across the bridge!

(But that's not Lake Ontario - it's in the Saint Lawrence River.)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's a Hungarian flag (or at least one with the same colors).


----------



## Penn's Woods

Bottom looks blue to me, but it doesn't matter. :cheers:


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> I'm wondering what's with the Dutch flag halfway across the bridge!
> 
> (But that's not Lake Ontario - it's in the Saint Lawrence River.)


You're right... and blogger where I took the pictures is right too.

I had to say just "near Lake Ontario"


----------



## DanielFigFoz

alserrod said:


> Please, post the blog address and I will try to have a look these days.
> 
> Tx in advance.



Here it is:
http://historiasdaraia.blogspot.co.uk/


----------



## alserrod

Quite interesting. Thanks Daniel


----------



## piotr71

*Eurotunnel. (GB)(F)*

British side.


IMGP4715 by 71piotr, on Flickr


IMGP4721 by 71piotr, on Flickr


IMGP4722 by 71piotr, on Flickr


IMGP4723 by 71piotr, on Flickr


IMGP4724 by 71piotr, on Flickr

If you come too early there is need to wait and check departure time on blue matrix seen in the background.

IMGP4727 by 71piotr, on Flickr


IMGP4729 by 71piotr, on Flickr


IMGP4730 by 71piotr, on Flickr

Passport control. This is very serious border crossing. In no way similar to schengen crossings in mainland Europe.

IMGP4733 by 71piotr, on Flickr


IMGP4734 by 71piotr, on Flickr


IMGP4738 by 71piotr, on Flickr


IMGP4740 by 71piotr, on Flickr


IMGP4745 by 71piotr, on Flickr


IMGP4746 by 71piotr, on Flickr


IMGP4748 by 71piotr, on Flickr


IMGP4749 by 71piotr, on Flickr


IMGP4751 by 71piotr, on Flickr


IMGP4754 by 71piotr, on Flickr


----------



## TedStriker

g.spinoza said:


> Despite what governments may say, there's a precise and long-term plan to tear down non-high speed trains and railways in all Europe.


Is there? 

Can you point me in the direction of at least one online source which reveals the evidence for this assertion please.


----------



## g.spinoza

TedStriker said:


> Is there?
> 
> Can you point me in the direction of at least one online source which reveals the evidence for this assertion please.


You really want me to point to an official document stating this? There aren't, you know. I just use logic: lines are being closed all the time, even the very busy ones (commuter lines to the big cities) are unbearably overcrowded and obsolete, so it's not a question of money. Two plus two equals four. They just want the people to get tired of this and buy a car.


----------



## marobara

Eulanthe said:


> Some more questions
> 
> 1. Are there any EU external border crossings where passport control is carried out on the platform/in the station rather than on the train? I'm aware of the border crossing in Przemysl where people boarding in Przemysl are checked in the station (and - I think - when they leave the train in Przemysl too) - but are there any others?
> 
> (Kroscienko - PL/UA used to be carried out inside the border station, but that border crossing has now closed for trains...)
> 
> 2. Between 2004-2007, does anyone know if Poland conducted entry *and* exit checks (not just entry checks) on the PL/CZ and PL/SK borders? I'm struggling to find out what was the exact practice.
> 
> 3. Was the PL-CZ/SK border "hard" between 2004-2007, or were illegal border crossings common during that time? I've found numerous references online to local residents simply ignoring the need to cross at an actual border crossings, and it seems that many tourist crossings were completely unmanned.


I can't answer to the question 1 but about 2&3:

2. I have crossed PL/SK (more often) and PL/CZ borders many times since the mid-90s and I can't recall any strict checks ever happening there. Even before 2004 the exit controls were very rare. I might have been asked to open my car's boot once or twice in my life (crossing the southern PL border every year at least 3-4 times). In 2004-2007 the checks became even lighter, sometimes the guards didn't ask for passport.

3. Most of the PL/SK and PL/CZ border is mountainous, many peaks are exactly at the border, hiking is very popular, you can add the rest yourself.. technically some tourist trails had marked border crossings (even up high in the mountains) but I have never met any guard there. Some small crossings on local roads (also marked as tourist crossings, not working 24h, but eg. 6-20) were sometimes unmanned and open too.


----------



## TedStriker

g.spinoza said:


> You really want me to point to an official document stating this? There aren't, you know. I just use logic: lines are being closed all the time, even the very busy ones (commuter lines to the big cities) are unbearably overcrowded and obsolete, so it's not a question of money. Two plus two equals four. They just want the people to get tired of this and buy a car.


I haven't read about any significant line closures in Europe, not just recently, but for many years. 

I've heard of the discontinuation of certain passenger services, yes. 

I've also heard of the threat of line closures in certain areas. Hungary springs to mind. 

But I have certainly not seen any evidence at all of there being some kind of plague sweeping across Europe leading to line closures. 

Are you sure this is not just a perception you have as oppose to it being a judgement based on facts?


----------



## g.spinoza

TedStriker said:


> I haven't read about any significant line closures in Europe, not just recently, but for many years.
> 
> I've heard of the discontinuation of certain passenger services, yes.
> 
> I've also heard of the threat of line closures in certain areas. Hungary springs to mind.
> 
> But I have certainly not seen any evidence at all of there being some kind of plague sweeping across Europe leading to line closures.
> 
> Are you sure this is not just a perception you have as oppose to it being a judgement based on facts?


I may have exagerated the phenomenon. In Italy this is obvious. I read in this forum that line closures happen in other countries, so I may have generalized.
As I said before, of course it is a perception: there is no document stating "we want to close down as many lines as possible, puny commuters, bwawawa". But as an Italian living in Italy, this is totally apparent to me.


----------



## TedStriker

Although I only do read only English, I do read some Italian-language websites and translate them into English. These would be railway-focused in nature. 

In addition, I read the monthly magazine 'Today's Railways Europe' which contains news stories about Italy in English. 

So I'm surprised that I've not read anything about there being an issue with line closures in Italy, although I don't doubt what you say. You know better than I do what is going on in Italy of course. 

I know that there is an ongoing project to reform Trenitalia and cut costs, but my focus is only on the cargo side of Italy's railways so I'm not actively searching for information on the passenger side. 

Sorry to hear, anyway, that some railways have been shut and others are under threat.


----------



## g.spinoza

TedStriker said:


> Although I only do read only English, I do read some Italian-language websites and translate them into English. These would be railway-focused in nature.
> 
> In addition, I read the monthly magazine 'Today's Railways Europe' which contains news stories about Italy in English.
> 
> So I'm surprised that I've not read anything about there being an issue with line closures in Italy, although I don't doubt what you say. You know better than I do what is going on in Italy of course.


Look at this list:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrovia_dismessa#Ferrovie_dismesse_in_Italia
These are all Italian railways closed down. Many of them have been closed in the 60s-70s (that's why I say "long term plan"), but some others have been closed until now.
I see rail transport as a service, and a service cannot be shut because it loses money. It's like they say "sorry, your house was built a little outside the city so we cannot connect it to the utilities (water, electricity), because it would be too costly".
That's the way I see it.



> I know that there is an ongoing project to reform Trenitalia and cut costs, but my focus is only on the cargo side of Italy's railways so I'm not actively searching for information on the passenger side.


I know nothing about cargo rail transport, although my brother-in-law drives cargo trains. I may ask him, sooner or later.


> Sorry to hear, anyway, that some railways have been shut and others are under threat.


Of course main lines are not affected directly by this, but they're putting more and more high speed trains instead of normal ones, and closing down many stations. The final goal is: no more small lines, large lines only with long-distance high-speed trains, because they want to compete with air travel. The way I see it, rail and airplanes should serve entirely different customers.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

A fair amount of railway lines in the UK that were closed in the 50's and 60's have recently been reopened


----------



## Eulanthe

marobara said:


> I can't answer to the question 1 but about 2&3:
> 
> 2. I have crossed PL/SK (more often) and PL/CZ borders many times since the mid-90s and I can't recall any strict checks ever happening there. Even before 2004 the exit controls were very rare. I might have been asked to open my car's boot once or twice in my life (crossing the southern PL border every year at least 3-4 times). In 2004-2007 the checks became even lighter, sometimes the guards didn't ask for passport.
> 
> 3. Most of the PL/SK and PL/CZ border is mountainous, many peaks are exactly at the border, hiking is very popular, you can add the rest yourself.. technically some tourist trails had marked border crossings (even up high in the mountains) but I have never met any guard there. Some small crossings on local roads (also marked as tourist crossings, not working 24h, but eg. 6-20) were sometimes unmanned and open too.


Thank you for the answers!

It seems from my research that in the 2004-2007 period for certain, the border was more or less completely ignored by everyone outside of main official crossings. I spoke with some people in the Mala Cermna/Czermna area (near Kudowa-Zdroj) a while ago, and their opinion was that the border was completely meaningless after 2004, with the biggest frustration being the lack of car access. 

It's very interesting that the local crossings were unmanned too - but I guess this just reflected the reality of the situation, that it was absolutely pointless to guard every crossing. 

What's most interesting for me is that you say that exit checks were very rare. Compare this to the present day situation when everyone is checked upon leaving Schengen! (at least in this part of the world - we don't talk about the total failure of countries such as France to implement them)


----------



## vatse

Border of *Paraguay* and *Argentina* at San Ignacio de Loyola between Asuncion and Colorinda



















From http://tarmotamming.blogspot.com


----------



## alserrod

Nice picture and... by the way, the same picture could be posted in two more threads, couldn't it?

- Long distance signals
- Signals of neighbour country cities.

(more than 1000 km and the signal is not in Argentina yet)


----------



## pai nosso

alserrod said:


> In the Spanish "guess the road" thread I posted a picture to guess. It was a local road near a dam and besides Portugal.
> 
> About the road, nothing special. It is a road located close to Tajo/Tejo river and near an international dam.
> 
> But... take a look to this link (given by forumer who guessed it) and try to have a look to the dam. https://maps.google.es/maps?hl=es&ll=39.662337,-7.540698&spn=0.009036,0.021136&t=h&z=16
> 
> 
> Can it be the unique dam in the world where you cross an international border twice?????




Some years ago i want to pass that dam from Portugal by the north :wallbash:, i only knew that existed, i wasn`t travelling with a very good road map.:lol:


I didn`t know that there was no connection with Portugal by north.:lol::wallbash: 


Concluding, i did not see the dam, i had to turn back because it was getting late and i still had a 4 hours road trip. 



Related news (in portuguese):


> Espanha desiste da ponte que ligaria Cedillo a Montalvão
> 
> Cerca de 15 quilómetros separam as duas localidades, mas os residentes vão continuar percorrer cerca de 120
> 
> P.S.: translation in English »»» Spain quits bridge that would connect Cedillo to Montalvão. 15 Km separate the two towns, but residents have to travel 120 Km.


----------



## alserrod

Related to Cedillo, it is not Spanish ministery but Extremadura government who seems not to want to built that bridge... and really there is a long tour without that bridge.

In Spain, except roads starting by N-XXX and almost all motorways (there are exceptions but that't to talk about in another thread), all roads depends by their regional governments. In this case Extremadura.

In any case, has someone thought in a boat solution?

In the Ebro river, the second longest in the Iberian peninsula it remains one case. Have a look

https://maps.google.es/maps?q=mirav...=27DHYT9Oil3n98aHONViTg&cbp=12,357.23,,0,0.82


----------



## makaveli6

Lithuania/Latvia A13/A11









Unnumbered LT road/V1219









Road 169/P114


----------



## alserrod

are they real custom controls?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Both countries are in the Schengen area.


----------



## alserrod

I know... but sometimes you have controls "near" border


----------



## Corvinus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Both countries are in the Schengen area.


Custom controls despite Schengen are still possible - EU/CH or EU/N for example. 

But of course nothing between LT and LV - we have EU and Schengen.


----------



## Road_UK

Corvinus said:


> Custom controls despite Schengen are still possible - EU/CH or EU/N for example.
> 
> But of course nothing between LT and LV - we have EU and Schengen.


That doesn't mean a thing. Sometimes there are controls on the F/D border.


----------



## italystf

Border between the Kingdom of Italy and the Austrian Empire, 1866-1918
http://maps.google.it/maps?q=Torvis...7qCNad-Dh2n3L16s1dMX7g&cbp=12,175.84,,0,12.88


----------



## italystf

I found a page with interesting borders in the world:

The big island is in Canada, the smaller in the USA









Right Spain (Ceuta), left Morocco









Baarle Hertog - Baarle Nassau (If we really need to tell where is it, since this pic is everywhere on the net)









Road between Sweden and Norway









Lighthouse between Sweden and Denmark (?) (I think they mean Sweden-Norway or Sweden Finland)









China (Tibet) - Nepal


















Disputed border between Egypt and Sudan. For some reasons this quadrilater of desert isn't claimed by any of those countries (having it means losing a wider area).









"Capanna Regina Margherita" over the Monte Rosa between Italy and Switzerland. Altitude: 4559m.









China-Kyrgyzstan









Western Sahara - Mauritania









Underground border in the salt ore near Salzburg









India - Bangladesh









Diomede islands in the Bering strait: the Eastern one is American, the Western one is Russian









Norway - Sweden - Finland tripoint


----------



## Stainless

italystf said:


> Western Sahara - Mauritania


I have crossed this border. Formalities were completed sat on the floor over some green tea.


----------



## Penn's Woods

italystf said:


> I found a page with interesting borders in the world:
> 
> The big island is in Canada, the smaller in the USA


That's come up before, and apparently they're both in Canada: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zavikon_Island


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> That's come up before, and apparently they're both in Canada: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zavikon_Island


I wrote some post before about it. It is called the shortest international bridge when... both islands are in Canada and posted a link about it.

I found a page with three very short international bridges in a blog. Blogger wrote that a PT-ES bridge was 3m20 long. There are two ones more as applicant to the shortest international bridge. Another one PT-ES and another CZ-PL which seems to be similar.

By the way... Tibet-China is not international bridge at all, even if photos are really nice.


----------



## MattiG

italystf said:


> I found a page with interesting borders in the world:
> 
> Road between Sweden and Norway


Does not look a road but trees removed from the border line, and the area used by snowmobiles.



> Lighthouse between Sweden and Denmark (?) (I think they mean Sweden-Norway or Sweden Finland)


Not at a border at all. Sprogø lighthouse in Denmark at the Storebælt bridge: _https://maps.google.fi/?ll=55.33336...oid=wK316RlO6vhOenfqo38XoA&cbp=12,236.56,,0,0


_


----------



## vatse

Border of Argentina and Chile south from Rio Gallegos









Border of Chile and Argentina at San Sebastian


















From http://tarmotamming.blogspot.com


----------



## CNGL

^^ Can't see the pics 



italystf said:


> I found a page with interesting borders in the world:
> 
> The big island is in Canada, the smaller in the USA


Both islands are actually in Canada, the border is to the right.



italystf said:


> Road between Sweden and Norway





MattiG said:


> Does not look a road but trees removed from the border line, and the area used by snowmobiles.


Besides that, I believe is the USA-Canada border, not the Sweden-Norway one.



italystf said:


> Disputed border between Egypt and Sudan. For some reasons this quadrilater of desert isn't claimed by any of those countries (having it means losing a wider area).


Ah, the Bir Tawil, where <insert things that are a crime anywhere here> is allowed. Maybe we should claim it for Skyscrapercity.


----------



## Verso

alserrod said:


> By the way... Tibet-China is not international bridge at all, even if photos are really nice.


It's a bridge between Tibet and Nepal, not between Tibet and the rest of China.



italystf said:


>


Why is it "U.S.A" and not "U.S.A." (dot after A)? I see that often.


----------



## alserrod

That library is binational. I read that once US police made some questions to a prisoner who was in Canada and asked not to cross the border


----------



## OulaL

CNGL said:


> Besides that, I believe is the USA-Canada border, not the Sweden-Norway one.


Why? Well I don't really recognise those particular trees, but I can tell that such trees can be found at the Sweden-Norway border. Not to say they couldn't be found in the USA-Canada border as well, of course.


----------



## alserrod

and you have the "Canusa avenue" besides...


----------



## italystf

CNGL said:


> ^^ Can't see the pics
> Besides that, I believe is the USA-Canada border, not the Sweden-Norway one.


I think you're right.
http://maps.google.it/maps?q=Vermon...q=vermont&hnear=Vermont,+Stati+Uniti&t=h&z=17
However I don't think you are allowed to wander freely there, maybe that snowmobile belongs to border patrol cops.


----------



## italystf

This one could be (one of) the shortest international bridge(s) in the world.


----------



## italystf

No, it's really Norway-Sweden
http://images.google.com/search?tbs...kIcGj2lQEC9P7wo_1PO9kA&hl=it&bih=624&biw=1366


----------



## alserrod

italystf said:


> No, it's really Norway-Sweden
> http://images.google.com/search?tbs...kIcGj2lQEC9P7wo_1PO9kA&hl=it&bih=624&biw=1366


sorry, I can see only the same snowed picture


----------



## Ingenioren

I suppose it could be Elgklinten on the border of Norway and Sweden, another picture:


----------



## BringMe

^^ how did they do that? I mean they cut all the trees?


----------



## vatse

vatse said:


> Border of Argentina and Chile south from Rio Gallegos
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Border of Chile and Argentina at San Sebastian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From http://tarmotamming.blogspot.com


Corrected


----------



## alserrod

English translation:

1- Welcome to the Republic of Chile

2- Welcome. St. Sebastien Border complex

3- Argentinan Republic. Tierra del Fuego (Fireland), Antartic and Southern Atlantic islands province.


----------



## Verso

Do we really need translation? :lol:


----------



## Galro

BringMe said:


> ^^ how did they do that? I mean they cut all the trees?


They used chainsaws. The same way we cut down tress beneath power lines.


----------



## alserrod

Verso said:


> Do we really need translation? :lol:


I almost all Latin languages Bienvenido is understood. In any other languages, maybe not... for instance.


----------



## Corvinus

vatse said:


> From http://tarmotamming.blogspot.com


Would be interesting to know how many Estonian-registered vehicles travelled there before. Chances are this is the first ....


----------



## Verso

I didn't even notice it was an Estonian plate! How much did it cost to ship it? (and from where to where?)


----------



## brisavoine

According to these recent articles, the opening date for the bridge over the Oyapock River between France and Brazil has been yet again postponed. The bridge was due to open to traffic in the 1st quarter of 2013, but now it's been pushed back to the 2nd quarter, and possibly even to the end of the year. The Brazilians are apparently incapable of completing the 2 km of road on their side of the bridge to connect the bridge with the Brazilian road network!! 

Also, the Brazilians have apparently not built the customs house on their side of the border yet. The federal authorities in Brasilia received no bid following a public tender call for the customs house last October, so they had to issue a second public call for bids. Bids had to be submitted before the end of December, but I don't know if they received any. Chi va piano va sano, as they say in Italy.

http://www.guyaweb.com/nouveau-couac-pour-le-pont/
http://www.guyaweb.com/faux-depart-pour-la-trans’oyapock/
http://www.une-saison-en-guyane.com/article/societe/un-pont-beaucoup-trop-loin/

Driving to the bridge from the French side:









Arriving at the border checkpoint on the French side (the inspection booths and customs house on the French side of the border were built already 2 years ago):









The bridge seen from the French side:


----------



## TheMayor

Verso said:


> I didn't even notice it was an Estonian plate! How much did it cost to ship it? (and from where to where?)


Check his blog: http://tarmo-rtw.blogspot.be/


----------



## Chilio

some elements of this new France-Brazil bridge look like it has been there for decades... for instance the tarmac and the Jersey-crash-barriers...


----------



## eucitizen

brisavoine said:


> According to these recent articles, the opening date for the bridge over the Oyapock River between France and Brazil has been yet again postponed. The bridge was due to open to traffic in the 1st quarter of 2013, but now it's been pushed back to the 2nd quarter, and possibly even to the end of the year. The Brazilians are apparently incapable of completing the 2 km of road on their side of the bridge to connect the bridge with the Brazilian road network!!
> 
> Also, the Brazilians have apparently not built the customs house on their side of the border yet. The federal authorities in Brasilia received no bid following a public tender call for the customs house last October, so they had to issue a second public call for bids. Bids had to be submitted before the end of December, but I don't know if they received any. Chi va piano va sano, as they say in Italy.
> 
> http://www.guyaweb.com/nouveau-couac-pour-le-pont/
> http://www.guyaweb.com/faux-depart-pour-la-trans’oyapock/
> http://www.une-saison-en-guyane.com/article/societe/un-pont-beaucoup-trop-loin/
> 
> Driving to the bridge from the French side:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arriving at the border checkpoint on the French side (the inspection booths and customs house on the French side of the border were built already 2 years ago):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The bridge seen from the French side:


It is " chi va piano va sano e lontano"


----------



## Surel

Chilio said:


> some elements of this new France-Brazil bridge look like it has been there for decades... for instance the tarmac and the Jersey-crash-barriers...


I guess it is the climate.


----------



## brisavoine

Chilio said:


> some elements of this new France-Brazil bridge look like it has been there for decades... for instance the tarmac and the Jersey-crash-barriers...


Blame the Brazilians. They are the ones who built the bridge.

More seriously, the tarmac has been like that from day 1. They chose that sort of tarmac, I don't know why. As for the crash barriers, it's the equatorial climate. It's probably the same in Singapore.


----------



## Rusonaldo

Poland / Czech Republik - Motorway A1 / D1


----------



## KRX_69

Border between Portugal and Spain, in Barrancos.

From Portugal









From Spain


----------



## ChrisZwolle

OMG bad pavement! BRAKE!!!!










:lol:


----------



## Road_UK

There used to be a sign on that border, on the Dutch side, warning drivers of a bumpy road ahead.


----------



## riiga

Road_UK said:


> There used to be a sign on that border, on the Dutch side, warning drivers of a bumpy road ahead.


They probably realised that the Belgium sign is enough to warn drivers. :lol:


----------



## Skyland

*Ghana, Burkina Faso, Benin, Togo*

Ghana-Burkina Faso at Hamale: 






Burkina-Faso-Benin at Porga: 







Benin-Togo at Aneho:


----------



## popcalent

alserrod, *upside down* is _cabeza abajo_ in your language. Every time you say *upside down* you really mean to say *the other way round* (_al revés_).

I've been reading old posts on this thread and saw that you use this expression a lot, I thought I had to say something.


----------



## alserrod

popcalent said:


> alserrod, *upside down* is _cabeza abajo_ in your language. Every time you say *upside down* you really mean to say *the other way round* (_al revés_).
> 
> I've been reading old posts on this thread and saw that you use this expression a lot, I thought I had to say something.


off-topic. Thx a lot for correcting.

For non-native English speakers there are some common mistakes and this is one for me.
I'm preparing the equivalent to First Certificate and in my last writting test my teacher found......... the same mistake!!


hno:hno:hno:hno:
:bash:


----------



## popcalent

*Border between Bosnia and Croatia*

This is a hidden closed border between Bosnia and Croatia. There are no posted signs or any other marks on the road that point you to the border. I was in Bosnia and I saw a road on my GPS that led to the border with Croatia, so I decided to follow it. The road was very narrow and surrounded by minefields, I had the feeling I shouldn't be there. This is what I found:

This is the road to the border, as you can see it's been abandoned for a while:









This picture is taken from the Bosnian side. The sign says Bosnia but what be see behind the sign is the way to Croatia.









This are the UN anti-tank barricades. Again, there's a sign that says Bosnia, but behind the barricades we see Croatia. I took the picture standing in Bosnia:









The barricade:


















From the Croatian side. I'm standing in Croatia while taking the picture. The sign has the Croatian coat of arms and I think it says border in Croatian:









Finally some bombs that were lying on the ground. The tail seems to be the real thing, but the body is made of stone. Can anyone explain?


















These pictures were taken in July 2011.


----------



## KRX_69

Border between Portugal and Spain, in V.V. de Ficalho :cheers:


----------



## alserrod

Just a hint about signals. First signal says the country in Spain, located just in the border, but you will find later the speed limit signal and, usually, distance to several villages or cities.
Regional signal (in this case it says Andalucia and Province of Huelva) are far away... just in order to avoid too many signals at the same time.

In some other place this signal will be in the regional limit. Hadn't it been an international limit, it will be there in this case

And according to the blue box in the right... can it be a system to count traffic??





KRX_69 said:


>


----------



## x-type

popcalent said:


> This is a hidden closed border between Bosnia and Croatia. There are no posted signs or any other marks on the road that point you to the border. I was in Bosnia and I saw a road on my GPS that led to the border with Croatia, so I decided to follow it. The road was very narrow and surrounded by minefields, I had the feeling I shouldn't be there. This is what I found:
> 
> These pictures were taken in July 2011.


did you visit nearby abbandoned military airport? 
enthusiasts are sneaking around there, but it is wise to announce to police where are you going to avoid problems.
btw the road at the photos is military road. it has never been border crossing, nor it was operational for civil traffic in Yugoslav period, only for military because that is already area of military air base (abbandoned) and access was strictly forbidden


----------



## popcalent

x-type said:


> did you visit nearby abbandoned military airport?
> enthusiasts are sneaking around there, but it is wise to announce to police where are you going to avoid problems.
> btw the road at the photos is military road. it has never been border crossing, nor it was operational for civil traffic in Yugoslav period, only for military because that is already area of military air base (abbandoned) and access was strictly forbidden


Oh! I didn't know there was an abandoned military airport :nuts: If I had only known...

I was just following the road because I thought that was an actual border cross. I always try to cross countries through small roads so I can pull over and take pictures of the welcome signs. It's more difficult on major roads. Do you know the name of the military facility or the border area so I can find pictures on the internet? These pictures were taken near Bihac, Bosnia.


----------



## cinxxx

Very nice pictures of that hidden border road between BiH and HR. Thanks for that!
I also like to take smaller border crossings if I have the time to do the same (take picture with the signs)


----------



## x-type

popcalent said:


> Oh! I didn't know there was an abandoned military airport :nuts: If I had only known...
> 
> I was just following the road because I thought that was an actual border cross. I always try to cross countries through small roads so I can pull over and take pictures of the welcome signs. It's more difficult on major roads. Do you know the name of the military facility or the border area so I can find pictures on the internet? These pictures were taken near Bihac, Bosnia.


of course I know. just google "Željava". you will find a lot of info and reports about it. according to your photos, you were exactly there. here is the location at Google Maps: https://maps.google.hr/?ll=44.841934,15.784693&spn=0.04108,0.090895&t=h&z=14


----------



## Ballota

Dude, that wasn't a road. It was a airbase taxiway! :laugh:
I went to Željava AFB a year and a half ago. It'amazing! :master:
It was destroyed by the Serbs in 1992. There are five runways and a vast undeground complex with four entrances, blast doors and 3.5km long tunnels inside the mountain. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Željava_Air_Base










Once:









Today:









:cheers:


----------



## MaXxImE




----------



## alserrod

Amazing!!!!!!


Signals of Portugal and Spain are... conversely in the other country.

So, Spain is written in Portuguese (Galician language is very, very close to Portuguese but the word Spain is said as in Spanish)
And Portugal is the same in both languages but "rio Miño" would be Minho in the other side...


----------



## Palance

Ballota said:


> Dude, that wasn't a road. It was a airbase taxiway! :laugh:
> I went to Željava AFB a year and a half ago. It'amazing


Even on Streetview there is a remaining visible:
http://maps.google.nl/?ll=44.857633...d=z7Cwke3Gvzy1IYO4LfzMRQ&cbp=11,92.13,,0,5.11


----------



## DanielFigFoz

With the rest of Portugal added to street view, I have been looking at some smaller border crossings:

Batocas (P)-La Alamedilla










Lageosa (P)-Navasfrias(E)


----------



## Fabri88

Guys, as far as I knew until today I always knew that there was only a closed border in the world: that's the (in)famous DMZ between South Korea and North Korea.

But today I discovered that there is another "closed" border: that's the Darién Gap between Colombia and Panama. This one is due to a natural gap that neither Colombian nor Panamian government want to close.

To be honest I know that there also isn't possibility to cross from/to Armenia and Turkey. Is it still so or did they opened some crossing points?

What are the other closed borders in the world?


----------



## cougar1989

As far as I know you can not cross the border between as well Israel and Lebanon as also Israel and Syria


----------



## mgk920

Can one cross directly between India and Pakistan?

Mike


----------



## CNGL

Morocco-Algeria is also closed.


----------



## alserrod

mgk920 said:


> Can one cross directly between India and Pakistan?
> 
> Mike


I do not know. 
I read about a military exhibition made by both armies in a border control that keeps closed all the year.

The exhibition is made every year and takes a lot of people in both countries


----------



## alserrod

And obviously not closed but... have a look about how many road border crossing you will find Paraguay-Argentina... and compare with the number of kilometres in the border.

Even near Iguazu waterfalls PY-AR must be made, even by boat, even via Brazil crossing two borders in a couple of kilometres.
Further away, a border in a river with no bridges.

There are customs... but few ones only


----------



## italystf

Turkey-Armenia and Armenia-Azerbaijan are closed too. Georgia-Russia and Azerbaijan-Russia probably, but I'm not sure. There are no roads between Venezuela and Guyana and Chavez regime claims a part of Guyana.
There are is an industrial park in North Korea that is accessible by road from the South thanks to an agreement between the 2 countries.


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> There are is an industrial park in North Korea that is accessible by road from the South thanks to an agreement between the 2 countries.


an agreement from 1991 which has been cancelled today?


----------



## Palance

Fabri88 said:


> But today I discovered that there is another "closed" border: that's the Darién Gap between Colombia and Panama. This one is due to a natural gap that neither Colombian nor Panamian government want to close.


There is a 'crossing' there anyway:

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/24673015


----------



## Vertigo

italystf said:


> Turkey-Armenia and Armenia-Azerbaijan are closed too. Georgia-Russia and Azerbaijan-Russia probably, but I'm not sure.


Armenia - Azerbeijan is closed, though you can travel from Armenia into the disputed terretory of Nagorny Karabakh, which according to the view of most countries is inside Azerbeijan.

Georgia - Russia and Azerbeijan - Russia borders are open, but may only be crossed by CIS citizens.

I found this video in which the border Russia - Georgia is crossed (at 21:20 in the video).


----------



## DanielFigFoz

mgk920 said:


> Can one cross directly between India and Pakistan?
> 
> Mike


I'm not sure at the moment.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The border crossing between Russia and Mongolia (Russian route M52). This complex is located about 5 kilometers inside Mongolian territory. The M52 was paved in 2007, I assume this building was built around the same time. Mongolian side is unpaved though. The nearest city (and paved road) in Mongolia is Olgii, about 100 kilometer southeast of here.


----------



## popcalent

italystf said:


> There are is an industrial park in North Korea that is accessible by road from the South thanks to an agreement between the 2 countries.


If you're talking about Kaesong and Kumgangsan the two tours from South Korea have been discontinued since 2009, and as of 2012 the tours are neither resumed nor likely to resume.

The only part of North Korea accessible from the South is the north half of the conference room straddling the demarcation line at the Joint Security Area. It is also possible to visit the south half from North Korea.


----------



## Vertigo

^^ Right. It's a weird situation. Here's a picture I took in 2004, visiting this room from North Korea. Two North Korean soldiers are securing the door leading to South Korea, to prevent me from exiting there. (The border between both Korea's runs right through the table in the middle) Which means that actually, these North Korean soldiers are standing in South Korea...

I also wonder how they deal with the practical details. As tourists are entering from both North and South Korea, they will have to communicate with each other about this. I always found this curious, enemies communicating about these practical issues on a daily basis...


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Please post more pics from this location if you have them


----------



## popcalent

Vertigo said:


> ^^ Right. It's a weird situation. Here's a picture I took in 2004, visiting this room from North Korea. Two North Korean soldiers are securing the door leading to South Korea, to prevent me from exiting there. (The border between both Korea's runs right through the table in the middle) Which means that actually, these North Korean soldiers are standing in South Korea...
> 
> I also wonder how they deal with the practical details. As tourists are entering from both North and South Korea, they will have to communicate with each other about this. I always found this curious, enemies communicating about these practical issues on a daily basis...


I'll be visiting the same room in a month, but from the south. My picture will be from the opposite side, with South Korean soldiers standing in North Korea.


----------



## bogdymol

^^ So you will be going on a trip in North Korea? That's something that I want to do one day, but right now it's quite expensive for my budget...

Please make a new thread in the travel section and share your pictures with us after you come back.

Have a safe trip!


----------



## popcalent

bogdymol said:


> ^^ So you will be going on a trip in North Korea? That's something that I want to do one day, but right now it's quite expensive for my budget...
> 
> Please make a new thread in the travel section and share your pictures with us after you come back.
> 
> Have a safe trip!


No, I'm going to South Korea. That's why I said I will have the opposite picture. That is, the same room but the other end, and South Korean soldiers guarding the opposite door. kay:


----------



## Road_UK

popcalent said:


> No, I'm going to South Korea. That's why I said I will have the opposite picture. That is, the same room but the other end, and South Korean soldiers guarding the opposite door. kay:


So basically southern and northern guards are in the same room all day long, standing in each others country?


----------



## Vertigo

Nope, only either North or South Korean soldiers in the room at any time. I only saw North Korean soldiers there, Popcalent wil only see South Korean soldiers there.

Some more pictures:










Entering the Demilitarized Zone (actually looking back from the DMZ into North Korea). The large concrete gate has the obvious goal to block intruding armies in their path. Note the freeway sign after the gate. In the opposite direction, there's actually a sign saying how many kms to Seoul, don't have a picture of that.










An overview of the barracks on the border from the north side. The large building in the background is in South Korea.










The barracks on the outside.'It's a weird place. You could become breaking news and make headlines worldwide by just running 10-15 meters to the other side. The question is wether you would live to tell the tale. ;-)










My travel mate and me with a North Korean officer.


----------



## OulaL

Interestingly, though North Korea and Russia don't have a road connection, they do have a rail connection. Obsiously, its usage involves a lot of bureaucracy...

Here's a story from 2008. I'm not sure how it works today.

http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.fi/


----------



## Vertigo

^^ Ah yes, epic story by a brave/crazy Austrian guy who decided to try out that connection without telling the North Korean authorities about it. It should be easier nowadays, at least a Dutch travel agent was offering the possibility to enter North Korea via that route on their tours.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

That is proof that North Korea uses green motorway signs


----------



## Verso

:lol:


----------



## Vertigo

Well, it is actually, I guess. I never saw a blue motorway sign in North Korea.


----------



## popcalent

Road_UK said:


> So basically southern and northern guards are in the same room all day long, standing in each others country?


No, nobody is in the room for the majority of the time. If you're visiting from the South, South Korean soldiers enter the room with your tour group and block the door to the North, then they leave the room after everyone else is out. If you're visiting from the North, North Korean soldiers enter the room with your tour group and block the door to the South, then they leave the room after everyone else is out. Tours are scheduled in a way that a tour from the South and a tour from the North do not occur at the same time.

I don't think there's ever soldiers of both sides inside the room at the same time. Except for when the conference room is used for its legitimate purpose, I reckon.


----------



## Road_UK

Interesting...


----------



## alserrod

I read at some other time an article about that Zone. Departing from Seoul you had to book with 10 days in advance and there were some mandatory thing to take care. For instance, passport photocopy in advance when booking (and they had a list of country citizens not allowed there). There were someone more and maybe the most curious was not wearing army clothes or something related when visiting it.

They said the area that can be visited (and the points that never, never couldn't be crossed because would be considered as illegal inmigration within North Korea).


----------



## vraem

alserrod said:


> Bolivia-Chile, bad... rest of them, it is not Schengen but borders can be crossed without many problems.
> 
> Maybe the most interenting point is this:
> 
> After one year training, they go for practices about another day to an army ship in the Ocean of any "friendly neighbour country". This is... any one except Chile: Peru, Argentina, Uruguay (it is not neighbour but close to), Brazil... and stay with its army for that period.


you're wrong if you think that the border between Peru and Chile were good...is worse than Bolivia

few years ago the government of Chile put landmines explosive in peru-chile frontera, the Peruvians trying to cross the border would be virtually killed exploiting these mines

you consider good that the government of Chile do that in the border :Ohno:


----------



## vraem

Peru Ecuador border











costa rica nicaragua border....the most fought by a lake and a river


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is no road border crossing between Russia and North Korea, but there is a railway service between the two countries. Russian road A189 dead-ends at the border river in Khasan. Interestingly, this photo was taken from China, the bridge is in Russia/North Korea.


----------



## popcalent

OulaL said:


> Interestingly, though North Korea and Russia don't have a road connection, they do have a rail connection. Obsiously, its usage involves a lot of bureaucracy...
> 
> Here's a story from 2008. I'm not sure how it works today.
> 
> http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.fi/


I read the whole thing, it's awesome. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## popcalent

vraem said:


> costa rica nicaragua border....the most fought by a lake and a river


I crossed this border in November 2010. I took a boat from Los Chiles (Costa Rica) to San Carlos (Nicaragua). Here's some pictures of the welcome sign of both countries:


----------



## vraem

Says November 2010, and you have not come across this 






























popcalent said:


> I crossed this border in November 2010. I took a boat from Los Chiles (Costa Rica) to San Carlos (Nicaragua). Here's some pictures of the welcome sign of both countries:


----------



## Florense

out of nowhere the Nicaraguan army (Costa Rica has no army) occupied a small territory of Costa Rica in the border and created a canal and declares that the new canal is the border, now that territory is in "dispute" hno:


----------



## italystf

Algeria - Morocco


----------



## italystf

China - North Korea


----------



## popcalent

italystf said:


> China - North Korea


Is it possible for non-North Koreans/Chinese to cross this border? Or to ever get to where these signs are?

Edit: Upon further examination of the pictures, I believe the signs are not in the middle of the bridge but on the Chinese shore of the river. I thought the sign on the second picture was half-way into the bridge and that the three women were in North Korea. But it seems that North Korea is behind them, across the river. Is that right?


----------



## gdolniak

popcalent said:


> Is it possible for non-North Koreans/Chinese to cross this border? Or to ever get to where these signs are?
> 
> Edit: Upon further examination of the pictures, I believe the signs are not in the middle of the bridge but on the Chinese shore of the river. I thought the sign on the second picture was half-way into the bridge and that the three women were in North Korea. But it seems that North Korea is behind them, across the river. Is that right?


Google Maps to the rescue: https://maps.google.com/?ll=40.115578,124.392314&spn=0.00891,0.021136&t=h&z=16

Both pictures taken from the Chinese side. First one is easy to find. Second picture would be probably taken around that circular plaza just above the railway bridge. On Google Maps you can even see the tall chimneys on the North Korean side.


----------



## popcalent

gdolniak said:


> Google Maps to the rescue: https://maps.google.com/?ll=40.115578,124.392314&spn=0.00891,0.021136&t=h&z=16
> 
> Both pictures taken from the Chinese side. First one is easy to find. Second picture would be probably taken around that circular plaza just above the railway bridge. On Google Maps you can even see the tall chimneys on the North Korean side.


So the broken bridge goes into North Korea (according to Google Maps). I've been searching on the internet, and it seems they wanted to open Sinuiju (on the Korean side) visa-free to westerners. I've found many articles on the internet where they say they wanted to do it, but none that says that they actually did it or if they're going to do it soon. Anyone knows?

Here's a more precise location of the whereabouts of the first sign:









This is what the sign says, by the way: 中朝辺境丹东鴨緑江
中 China
朝 North Korea
辺境 Border Area
丹东 Dandong
鴨緑江 Yalu River


This has grabbed my attention, I'm already looking at flights to Beijing and trains to Dondang.


----------



## italystf

I though Chineses could go to North Korea but North Koreans can't go to China.


----------



## alserrod

Can North Koreans go anywhere?


----------



## popcalent

alserrod said:


> Can North Koreans go anywhere?


As far as I know, North Koreans are not allowed to roam freely their own country, let alone leave it.

There are very few exceptions where a North Korean can leave the country: diplomatic missions, sport events, and stays abroad to acquire a skill. 

These last are very rare, are supported and mandated by the government to an individual to learn a skill that he will use to serve the government, and 99.99% of these stays happen in China.


----------



## cougar1989

> Freedom of movement
> 
> North Korean citizens usually cannot freely travel around the country,[12] let alone travel abroad.[4][5][12] Emigration is forbidden.[12] Only the political elite may own or lease vehicles, and the government limits access to fuel and other forms of transportation due to frequent shortages of gasoline, diesel fuel, crude oil, coal and other fossil fuels (satellite photos of North Korea show an almost complete absence of vehicles on all of its roads throughout the country, even in its cities). Forced resettlement of citizens and whole families, especially as punishment for political reasons, is said to be routine.[42]
> 
> North Korean refugees who flee to China are often later forcibly repatriated back to North Korea by authorities, are routinely beaten, and sent to prison camps.[43] This is because the North Korean government treats emigrants from the country as defectors.[43] This treatment is more severe in cases where North Korean refugees have come into contact with non-governmental organizations (NGOs) that are associated with South Korea or with religions, especially Christianity.[43] In cases where the North Korean government discovers that contact has occurred between refugees and these NGOs, the punishments for these refugees are torture and execution upon their repatriation back to North Korea.[43]
> 
> Only the most loyal, politically reliable, and healthiest citizens are allowed to live in Pyongyang. Those who are suspected of sedition, or who have family members suspected of it, are expelled from the city; similar conditions affect those who are physically or mentally disabled in some way (the only exception being People's Army Korean War veterans with injuries relating to the conflict). This can be a significant method of coercion since food and housing are said to be much better in the capital city than elsewhere in the country.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea


----------



## LMB

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is no road border crossing between Russia and North Korea, but there is a railway service between the two countries. Russian road A189 dead-ends at the border river in Khasan. Interestingly, this photo was taken from China, the bridge is in Russia/North Korea.


Look for details here: 

Station Pyongyang with the a list of trains: http://www.ptdb.info/europe2013/stop.php?idstop=3000003

Train Moskva Iaroslavskaja → Pjöng Yang http://www.ptdb.info/europe2013/route.php?idxline=16893&idxrun=58021

Unfortunately the database is German, so is the transliteration


----------



## Xtreminal

Vertigo said:


> Armenia - Azerbeijan is closed, though you can travel from Armenia into the disputed terretory of Nagorny Karabakh, which according to the view of most countries is inside Azerbeijan.
> 
> Georgia - Russia and Azerbeijan - Russia borders are open, but may only be crossed by CIS citizens.
> 
> I found this video in which the border Russia - Georgia is crossed (at 21:20 in the video).


I just want to state if you ever going to visit Nagorno-Karabakh region, which is currently under armenian separatist regime, you will be denied visa to Azerbaijan. In short words, you will become persona non-grata


----------



## italystf

Xtreminal said:


> I just want to state if you ever going to visit Nagorno-Karabakh region, which is currently under armenian separatist regime, you will be denied visa to Azerbaijan. In short words, you will become persona non-grata


Can you ask for the stamp on a separate sheet (and not on your passport) like in Israel?


----------



## Xtreminal

italystf said:


> Can you ask for the stamp on a separate sheet (and not on your passport) like in Israel?


I don't know but counter-agencies are working and you don't want to involve and go to jail. Furthermore, nothing to see in Karabakh, it is very dangerous and militarised zone


----------



## italystf

Xtreminal said:


> I don't know but counter-agencies are working and you don't want to involve and go to jail. Furthermore, nothing to see in Karabakh, it is very dangerous and militarised zone


It looks like that most of Caucasus is a conflict or semi-conflict zone off-limit for tourists.


----------



## OulaL

What about visiting Korea (either of them) and then visiting the other with a stamp in the passport? (And I'm not talking about that demilitarized area described a couple of messaged above.)

How does that work, or does it? Sure, I believe foreigners can't cross the inter-Korean border, but they must travel via the PR of China - but is even that allowed with "wrong" Korea's stamp?


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> I always considered the LKW / PKW thing to be basic knowledge of the German / Austrian Autobahn system. Like Autohof. Or Ausfahrt. Or Bleifrei. I think most eastern European drivers also know what it means.


What about people who drives to Germany/Austria once in a while for tourism?
Europe, unlike the USA, is multilingual so it should adopt pictograms instead of texts in its signage. Especially when it's simple like drawing a car and a truck.

BTW, Ausfahrt is the subject of many jokes: "I was in Germany and that city was signposted everywhere but I couldn't find it on the map." :lol:


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> I always considered the LKW / PKW thing to be basic knowledge of the German / Austrian Autobahn system. Like Autohof. Or Ausfahrt. Or Bleifrei. I think most eastern European drivers also know what it means.


I agree.


----------



## Alex_ZR

^^ There's another joke. A Bosnian came to Germany to visit his friend. He calls his friend from a phone box to come and pick him. Friend asks:"Tell me the name of the street and will come and pick you up". Bosnian replies:"I am in _Einbahnstrasse_ (which means _one way street)_!" :lol:


----------



## Verso

^ This one is famous.


----------



## OulaL

ChrisZwolle said:


> I always considered the LKW / PKW thing to be basic knowledge of the German / Austrian Autobahn system. Like Autohof. Or Ausfahrt. Or Bleifrei. I think most eastern European drivers also know what it means.


Well, it isn't. When I learned German in high school, I was told that a car is "das Auto". I was really confused when seeing this PKW for the first time.

However, I don't think this is a major problem. What's the worst that could happen if one chooses the wrong lane? Not any fines, anyway?


----------



## x-type

i also find LKW and PKW kind of basics in traffic language  actually, German language has strong influence into traffic terms, so on can often hear words Autobahn, Stau, Baustelle, Tankstelle, Zoll etc.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's even not uncommon to hear Dutch speak about a "baustelle" in German context, especially those who travel through Germany frequently. (I don't think Franc-o-philes know it).


----------



## alserrod

alserrod said:


> My brother is right now in Maastritch.
> 
> If only he had remember he must send me some pics........


He had no time for these pictures. I will killl him!!!!!!!!!!
:bash::bash::bash::bash:

By the way, he sent me a photo from Charleroi airport this early morning wearing hard overcoats and being the airport services with salt over the tracks to avoid ice.

When he finished the flight and landed, he could get off with just a T-shirt :cheers::cheers::cheers:


----------



## Corvinus

Alex_ZR said:


> ^^ There's another joke. A Bosnian came to Germany to visit his friend. He calls his friend from a phone box to come and pick him. Friend asks:"Tell me the name of the street and will come and pick you up". Bosnian replies:"I am in _Einbahnstrasse_ (which means _one way street)_!" :lol:


Not always a joke: in 2000, a Japanese tourist in Cologne parked his rental car and -to find it again after visiting a popular festival- wisely took a note of the street name. When he indeed got lost on his way back, he asked police officers where _Einbahnstrasse _is.  They ultimately managed to rediscover the rental car after a lengthy walk.


----------



## Verso

x-type said:


> i also find LKW and PKW kind of basics in traffic language


Yeah, but what about all those foreigners who don't understand any German?


----------



## Road_UK

Verso said:


> Yeah, but what about all those foreigners who don't understand any German?


What about foreigners who don't understand Slovenian? Or English? Or French? Or Spanish? 

Welcome to Europe...


----------



## RipleyLV

ChrisZwolle said:


> I always considered the LKW / PKW thing to be basic knowledge of the German / Austrian Autobahn system. Like Autohof. Or Ausfahrt. Or Bleifrei. I think most eastern European drivers also know what it means.


We know, know. :yes: Some of us drivers call our Latvian rest areas as Autohof and gas stations as Tankstelle. :lol:


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> What about foreigners who don't understand Slovenian? Or English? Or French? Or Spanish?


They follow pictograms, not obscure acronyms.


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> Yeah, but what about all those foreigners who don't understand any German?


neither i am not some trained german speaker, so i understand it. actually, i didn't know what precisely PKW and LKW meant, I just knew it was abbrevitation for cars and lorries. 

what about Italians?
-in caso di nebbia
-uscita rampe
-rallentare

you find it all over Italy. or maybe the best one is "in galleria". Italians and Slovenians are probably the only nations in the world who don't use the word "tunnel" :lol:

also, i still don't get the meaning of french "rappel" which you see everywhere. i think it should mean that the warning where is written "rappel" happens on longer stretch of the road, but i'm not sure in that.


----------



## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> also, i still don't get the meaning of french "rappel" which you see everywhere. i think it should mean that the warning where is written "rappel" happens on longer stretch of the road, but i'm not sure in that.


Or "mindestens halber tacho" I found on German A 9.


----------



## cinxxx

x-type said:


> also, i still don't get the meaning of french "rappel" which you see everywhere. i think it should mean that the warning where is written "rappel" happens on longer stretch of the road, but i'm not sure in that.


I googled about "rappel", it is a reminder of the road-sign shown. It means that sign is valid also before and after the sign.



g.spinoza said:


> Or "mindestens halber tacho" I found on German A 9.


I saw that too, I googled after, and saw it means, divide the value of your kmh speed, and that at least that value is the number of meters you should keep with the front car.


----------



## g.spinoza

cinxxx said:


> I saw that too, I googled after, and saw it means, divide the value of your kmh speed, and that at least that value is the number of meters you should keep with the front car.


Something easy and not at all dangerous to do while driving at 200 km/h.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

People are very bad at estimating distances from a moving car.


----------



## Think

x-type said:


> also, i still don't get the meaning of french "rappel" which you see everywhere. i think it should mean that the warning where is written "rappel" happens on longer stretch of the road, but i'm not sure in that.


Rappel -> Remember.

It's used when the maximum speed is the normal maximun speed of the track, for example, in a highway you don't need to have a 130 speed signal because you know that the maximum speed is 130 km/h in highway. Only when a stretch has a lower limitation it is needed a speed signal. But sometimes they put 130 signals to "remember" that you have to take care about speed.


----------



## Chilio

I personally know very well what LKW and PKW are since my teen years, when I used to dream about purchasing a car, and in internet the best place to watch for some cars was mobile.de, by that time there wasn't the option to choose the language in which you see the site.


----------



## mapman:cz

Here you are (ČSR-Romania border stone): http://www.codyprint.cz/csr/03.html


----------



## Bogdy

cinxxx said:


> I also asked the same question in the Romanian section where the picture was posted by user Porcu
> 
> The only answer was, it should be in today Ukraine NW from Cernăuţi...


It should here, between *Orshivtsi* (now Ukraine, but till WW2 Romania) and the next village which is *Sniatyn* (Poland till WW2). Even now between this two villages is the boundary between Iwano-Frankiwsk(former Poland country) and Tscherniwtzi (former romanian county), and of course the photo was taken from the main exit from Romania to Poland, which is this place now.

You can see easy the current border between counties, which was also the former romanian-polish border
https://maps.google.ro/maps?saddr=в...OA&oq=Orshivtsi&mra=dme&mrsp=0&sz=13&t=m&z=12

and the same road on this old map









btw Don't be confused by the exit from Hungary to Poland, at Korosmezo. Korosmezo was in former Czechoslovakia, so it wasn't a border crossing till first Vienna Award and the occupation of carpathian Ruthenia when it become a border crossing between Hungary and Poland.


----------



## alserrod

Is "Polonia" written in Romanian?


----------



## Bogdy

^^ yes


----------



## alserrod

Bogdy said:


> ^^ yes


I got surprised because that detail (in my language is the same translation)


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> Is "Polonia" written in Romanian?


It's also Italian.


----------



## popcalent

Both Spanish and Romanian are Romance languages, so no big surprise.


----------



## PNBreda

*Highway border Netherlands-Germany (A12-A3) - Elten, Germany - March 27, 2013*


Highway border Netherlands-Germany (A12-A3) - Elten, Germany - March 27, 2013 by Pim Nijland, on Flickr


----------



## manubaba1983

Hey Guys
I found this on youtube and it brought back me memories of beautiful country Hungary... I hope you All will like this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdA-c6orjos


----------



## Rombi

Interesting subject. Pity that only with slovak subtitles (anyway better than with any other  )


----------



## piotr71

I found some older pictures of former Polish-German and Polish-Czechoslovakian border crossings.

Bytom, Upper Silesia.













































Trzciel.









Cieszków.









Korbielów.









Syców.









Border Stone.









Much more can be found *here*


----------



## Mr. America

^^ Interesting. Is this a tram line on the picture from Beuthen?


----------



## Verso

Border crossing between Germany and Italy NW of Ljubljana (now part of the city):


----------



## Stainless

BringMe said:


> can someone please explain me those flags and which countries those flags belong to?


The flags used to be lined up on the table. But they North Korean guards used to drop them on the floor and wipe their shoes with them. They also used to go in and lower the chairs on the south side before two party meetings. Part of their policy of behaving like disobedient children.


----------



## cinxxx

*Border Germany/Austria - Passau/Haibach*


























pictures taken by me today


----------



## italystf

Border between Fiume (Kingdom of Italy) and Susak (Kingdom of Jugoslavia) in 1938. The border is the bridge over the river Eneo (now Rječina).









Same place now









I-YU border just after WWII









Gorizia - Nova Gorica, postwar period (I think Casa Rossa - Rozna Dolina)









Same place in June - July 1991: Serbian thanks on fire









Piazza della Transalpina after WWII

















Communist propaganda slogan written with stones, on the Monte Sabotino, visible from Italy. Disappeared throghout the years, was recently restored by nostalgics,









Until 2004

















Between 2004 and 2007









Now


----------



## italystf

1751 border stone between the Venetian Republic and the Austrian Empire in Trentino








http://www.panoramio.com/photo/75094079

1847: Kingdom of Two Sicilies and Papal States









1911: Kindgdom of Italy and Austrian-Hungarian empire, on the SS14 Venice - Trieste








http://www.panoramio.com/photo/27413266


----------



## piotr71

Ukrainian-Romanian border. Road T2601 in Ukraine. Romania on the other side of the barb wired fence.










Near Vicovu de Sus, road 2E.


















https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/65337793
https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/34063739


----------



## Skyline_

Many border stations/crossings across the European Union have been abandoned or simply not used anymore...


----------



## Palance

I am pretty sure that Ukraine did not demolish the border posts with Romania


----------



## zsimi80

Polish-Hungarian border (1939)


----------



## italystf

Skyline_ said:


> Many border stations/crossings across the European Union have been abandoned or simply not used anymore...


Only when both countries joined Schengen.


----------



## Moravian

zsimi80 said:


> Polish-Hungarian border (1939)


Quite interesting piece of history at mountain ridge of Carpathians! Only interior Austrian/Hungarian border before 1920, Polish-Czechoslovakian border till that breaking March 1939, only Soviet inland after 1946 and Ukrainian inland after 1991....So Hungarian customs officers were just changing the CS-forerunners.
And without knowing it the Polish were going to close their business too.....

So called Kárpátalja has changed governors so many times in the 20th century! It could be compared easily with Istria - for example.....


----------



## piotr71

Not really border crossing, however seems to be interesting.

Palm Sunday, Lithuania-Belarus.









https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/15980481


----------



## cinxxx

^^


----------



## Orionol

^^
Cant they climb over the fence to their relatives?


----------



## Verso

I don't think it's allowed. :lol:


----------



## pobre diablo

Orionol said:


> ^^
> Cant they climb over the fence to their relatives?


Only if they are in a suicidal mood.


----------



## alserrod

I read an article about that fence. The article started stating that "having a Schengen area means that there is somewhere out of that area".

People weren't allowed to cross the border and they had to go away about 80 km to ask for a Visa and cross a custom control.

Visa fee was terrible according to their salaries... so that's the most common picture.


----------



## Road_UK

Are there any guards or comprehensive surveillance on both sides of that fence? Looking at that picture it seems fairly easy to toss all sorts of things across the border.


----------



## BringMe

pobre diablo said:


> Only if they are in a suicidal mood.


Is the fence electrified or something?


----------



## piotr71

Road_UK said:


> Are there any guards or comprehensive surveillance on both sides of that fence? Looking at that picture it seems fairly easy to toss all sorts of things across the border.


Good question! I am afraid, I can't answer straightforward for that, however, can tell a short story , which will possibly clarify this and that.

Several years before Poland joined EU, my friends and I decided to visit Sweden. We had chosen to cross our Western border and get into Germany, then going through Danmark reach Sweden. Before lining up in a long queue to a border crossing with Germany we intended to find a nice spot for a quick picnic in woods near the border. It was a nice sunset back then. I just managed to get out of our car and stretch the hands when heard a firm command out of my back: _stand still, don't move_...

After some incredibly long 3 minutes and several quite personal questions, we were explained by two fully armed guards that this nice spot happened to be one of the most notorious illegal corridor for traffickers and that it wasn't wise to rest there. They also said that they had seen us some time before we stopped. Eventually, we were judged not guilty, let go free and recommended more suitable picnic area nearby. 

I dare to say that Belorussian guards can detect every living creature long before it even thought to close to the border. As you can see, all those people on Belorussian side keep a certain distance from the fence. Otherwise, they would be caught, fined or even arrested.


----------



## alserrod

Here you have a blog entrance related to Lithuania-Belarus border.
http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/el-muro-schengen/

It is in Spanish but photos need no explanation, text can be easily translated with any on-line translator (no complicated sentences or so on) and should anyone needs help, just ask.

I think it is a very interesting entrance about this border written three years ago!!


----------



## OulaL

piotr71 said:


> Good question! I am afraid, I can't answer straightforward for that, however, can tell a short story , which will possibly clarify this and that.
> 
> Several years before Poland joined EU, my friends and I decided to visit Sweden. We had chosen to cross our Western border and get into Germany, then going through Danmark reach Sweden. Before lining up in a long queue to a border crossing with Germany we intended to find a nice spot for a quick picnic in woods near the border. It was a nice sunset back then. I just managed to get out of our car and stretch the hands when heard a firm command out of my back: _stand still, don't move_...
> 
> After some incredibly long 3 minutes and several quite personal questions, we were explained by two fully armed guards that this nice spot happened to be one of the most notorious illegal corridor for traffickers and that it wasn't wise to rest there. They also said that they had seen us some time before we stopped. Eventually, we were judged not guilty, let go free and recommended more suitable picnic area nearby.
> 
> I dare to say that Belorussian guards can detect every living creature long before it even thought to close to the border. As you can see, all those people on Belorussian side keep a certain distance from the fence. Otherwise, they would be caught, fined or even arrested.


Finland (I'm not sure about other countries) has established a so called Border Zone, reaching up to 3 km from the (Russian) border itself. Visiting the border zone for purposes other than crossing the border (which of course can only be done at certain points) requires a permit.

Not only is the actual border heavily supervised, so is also the outer limit of the border zone. When tourists stop there, just taking pictures of the border zone signs (not intending to actually enter the zone), they may expect company in a couple of minutes.

So such a picture could not be taken here...


----------



## alserrod

I read something about crossing the border had a very high fine (even if just crossing from Finland, staying and coming back) and... 50% if it was only the aerial space (this is, standing in Finland in the same border and putting your arms over Russian territory!!!!!!!)


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> Finland (I'm not sure about other countries) has established a so called Border Zone, reaching up to 3 km from the (Russian) border itself. Visiting the border zone for purposes other than crossing the border (which of course can only be done at certain points) requires a permit.
> 
> Not only is the actual border heavily supervised, so is also the outer limit of the border zone. When tourists stop there, just taking pictures of the border zone signs (not intending to actually enter the zone), they may expect company in a couple of minutes.
> 
> So such a picture could not be taken here...


The frontier zone at the Russian border is based on the treaty of Versailles on 1947, and it was demanded by the Soviet Union. Nowadays, those articles of the treaty are obsolete, but Finland wants to keep the zone, because it makes it easier to guard the border. No such a zone exists at the Norwegian or Swedish border. The rules related to the zone have been relieved a lot since 1947.

Taking photos of the zone or the signs is not forbidden.


----------



## OulaL

alserrod said:


> I read something about crossing the border had a very high fine (even if just crossing from Finland, staying and coming back) and... 50% if it was only the aerial space (this is, standing in Finland in the same border and putting your arms over Russian territory!!!!!!!)


I didn't know that. However, I do know that merely entering the border zone (which, as said, could be 3 km from the actual border) without a permit involves a fine. 

Ignorance isn't an excuse, since the border zone is very clearly marked in terrain.


----------



## OulaL

MattiG said:


> Taking photos of the zone or the signs is not forbidden.


That's true, but frontier guards may nevertheless appear and ask the photographer what (s)he is doing, and _politely ask_ (not officially order) him/her to move. 

Stopped cars get the guards' attention, since those could be used to transport illegal immigrants or undeclared goods.


----------



## alserrod

Linguistic issue...... why isn't a border area close to Russia with a sign in Russian (it is written in 5 languages but not Russian)


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> That's true, but frontier guards may nevertheless appear and ask the photographer what (s)he is doing, and _politely ask_ (not officially order) him/her to move.


Not a common procedure.


----------



## italystf

How can people recognize which crossings can use? Is there a map?


----------



## piotr71

Is it possible to cross Serbia-Kosowo border, let's say on this border crossing (it's also called administrative crossing _Administrativni prelaz_) using ID card only? I read many blogs, forums and even official Serbian government site and it's still not clear enough to me.


----------



## Eulanthe

albertocsc said:


> In Romania they stamped it until the day they entered EU, maybe in Croatia will do the same. But you can always do as Bogdymol and just use your ID card...


Well, I want to collect as many stamps as possible  

Yes, of course, I'll take pictures! There are several very interesting places such as in Rogatec where the border is more or less cutting small towns/villages in half - so I will try and take as many pictures as possible of these areas.


----------



## Alex_ZR

italystf said:


> How can people recognize which crossings can use? Is there a map?


International border crossings are marked as red circle with a red line in it. Local border crossings are marked just with a red circle.

And yes, Bosnian and Serbian citizens can cross Slovenian-Croatian border only at internetional crossings.


----------



## Moravian

[/QUOTE]

Nice Croatian stamp as well as the name translation of that Croatian hamlet. So far as I remember the last change of stamps design came at the end of 90's. Before that the design was very simple, no ribs, only simple frame and the name of the border crossing, similar to Serbians stamps... 
Could be expected that the design will be change soon and Croatians will use the "EU"-pattern too......


----------



## Eulanthe

That's my motivation - I want to get as many old style Croatian stamps as possible, particularly from border crossings that will become for EU-citizens only (the current so called 'intra-state' crossings) in July and where it won't be possible to get stamps anymore. I'm also going to try and get as many Slovenian ones as possible too.


----------



## Verso

Isn't one enough? :dunno:


----------



## italystf

I think I have somewhere a page of my mum's old passport with an old Yuguslavian stamp "Vrtojba 1989". I'll post a scan if i'll find it.


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> I think I have somewhere a page of my mum's old passport with an old Yuguslavian stamp "Vrtojba 1989". I'll post a scan if i'll find it.


huh, a year or two ago I found my Yugoslav passport with Hungarian and Yugoslav stamp! if we will be lucky, I will remember where I placed it.


----------



## Palance

I have only one Croatian stamp of a land border crossing: Lupinjak. I have more, but they are all from airports (Zagreb, Split, Pula).

I also have old passports with YU-stamps, but the name of the country was on on the stamps, only the name of the crossing (like: Ljubelj, Korensko Sedlo, etc.)


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> Isn't one enough? :dunno:


No 

My passport costs nearly 200 euro to renew, I think I deserve as many stamps as possible


----------



## Skyline_

Eulanthe said:


> No
> 
> My passport costs nearly 200 euro to renew, I think I deserve as many stamps as possible


200 is too much! I paid around 80 euro.... :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Geez, I thought € 50 renew a passport in the Netherlands was a rip-off.


----------



## g.spinoza

42.50€ in Italy. But then you have to pay 40€ _per year_ in order to use it.


----------



## Godius

That's even more crazier. I also payed around €50,- for my passport renewal a few months ago but it is valid up to 2018 (5 yrs). Driver licences are valid for ten years in NL.


----------



## Road_UK

Godius said:


> That's even more crazier. I also payed around €50,- for my passport renewal a few months ago but it is valid up to 2018 (5 yrs). Driver licences are valid for ten years in NL.


As for Austria, your licence is valid for life.


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> As for Austria, your licence is valid for life.


It used to be like that in Germany too until very recently.


----------



## Stahlsturm

g.spinoza said:


> It used to be like that in Germany too until very recently.


They are still valid for life, only the new documents expire but will be replaced without additional test. My licence doesn't have an expiration date at all. I do unfortunately...


----------



## Corvinus

Road_UK said:


> As for Austria, your licence is valid for life.


Same for Switzerland, at least for categories A (motorcycle) and B (car).

(the "old" German category for cars is valid for small trucks up to 7.5 tons. If exchanging such a license into a Swiss one after relocation, you either renounce to the 3.5 to 7.5 tons range and obtain category B, or let it have included, but then it is more than B and requires medical checks every 5 years. A dilemma for many ...)


----------



## cinxxx

Stahlsturm said:


> They are still valid for life, only the new documents expire but will be replaced without additional test. My licence doesn't have an expiration date at all. I do unfortunately...


That's not true, even the unlimited ones have to be changed after 2033. But you don't take any exam or anything, probably will cost you though.

http://www.motor-talk.de/news/ab-2013-gilt-ein-fuehrerschein-nur-noch-15-jahre-t4294679.html


----------



## g.spinoza

Stahlsturm said:


> They are still valid for life, only the new documents expire but will be replaced without additional test.


Yes, that's what I meant... :cheers:


----------



## riiga

Only 40 € to renew my passport in Sweden, and I thought that was expensive.


----------



## x-type

52 euro here and I thought that was robbery because few years ago it costed some 30 euro. 
If you want urgent making of it (in 1 day) you pay additional 30 euro.


----------



## cinxxx

I just looked on the ministry website of Romania, a passport will cost you 70 euros. 
If you want the temporary passport which is valid for one year, but you can get the next day I think, it will cost you 53 euros.

Seems pricier then many Western states.

source: http://www.pasapoarte.mai.gov.ro/indexActe7.html


----------



## cougar1989

Germany
Passport 32 pages
Age >= 24 59.00€ 10 years valid
Age < 24 37.50€ 6 years valid
48 pages +22€ Express + 32€

Identity Card, which can be used for travel inside the EU, EEA, CH and some other European Countries.
Age >= 24 28.80€ 10 years valid
Age < 24 22.80€ 6 years valid


----------



## MattiG

Finland: Passport 52 eur, identity card 53 eur. Both valid for 5 years.


----------



## Markowice10

Poland: passport - 35 euros, valid 10 years, (students and pensioners - 50 % reduction).
Identity card - 0 euro (!), valid 10 years


----------



## cinxxx

^^ Poland strong 
Btw, in less then a month I'll be crossing Polish border for the first time, maybe post some pictures here after


----------



## TrueBulgarian

Bulgaria

ID Cards -> first one is free for 14-16 year olds is free, then 6.5 EUR for any substitutes till 18. They are usually valid until you turn 18. The 18-58 one is 9 EUR, 58-70 5.5 EUR (both valid for 10 years) and free for 70+. 

Passports are pricier -> for under 14 year olds it's 5 EUR, then 10 EUR for any substitutes till 14. The 14-58 one is 20 EUR, 58-70 10 EUR and 5 EUR for 70+. All are usually valid for 10 years. Thera are also reductions for disabled people. 

It's strange cause many people in Bulgaria have been complaining that the documents are too expensive but it seems that Siemens (the company that won the tender to supply them) are doing a good job, at least in terms of pricing.


----------



## Nordic20T

Switzerland, very "cheap" as always: 

*ID-card:* valid 10 years, CHF 65.--
*Passport:* valid 10 years, CHF 140.--


----------



## Lum Lumi

In *Kosovo* a passport for an adult costs *35 euros* (25 for students or citizens older than 65). An ID card is *0 euros*, but will cost 10 euros (+ photographs), if you lost it/misplaced it.

My *American* passport cost *$100* + about $8 for 2 passport-sized photographs. I needed it urgently, so I had to pay an additional $60 for "priority processing", and had it in 2 business days. This was in 2009.


----------



## alserrod

Spain:

Passport 25,50 EUR, valid for 5 years

ID Card 10,40 EUR.
Valid for 5 years until 30. Over 30, valid for 10 years


If you have to replace it because any data change, it will be free (giving all documents) and valid for 5 or 10 years more.

It has happened to me. I moved and had to change a lot of documents. When I made a new ID (same all... except the address, it was free and valid for 10 years starting in that date)


----------



## Bzyq_74

Markowice10 said:


> Poland: passport - 35 euros, valid 10 years, (students and pensioners - 50 % reduction).
> Identity card - 0 euro (!), valid 10 years


+ for children - 12 euros, valid 5 years,


----------



## AlexisMD

yes, Romanian passport one of the most expensive in EU (and it's only for 5 years)



But nothing compare to Turkey -*195* eur :nuts: + 6 eur each time you leave the country :nuts:

And if I'm not mistake not so long ago it cost was something like 300 eur


----------



## CNGL

alserrod said:


> Spain:
> 
> ID Card 10,40 EUR.
> Valid for 5 years until 30. Over 30, valid for 10 years


And over 75 years old (I believe) it becomes valid forever .


----------



## Lum Lumi

AlexisMD said:


> But nothing compare to Turkey -*195* eur :nuts: + 6 eur each time you leave the country :nuts:


This one is also only for 5 years. The "leaving Turkey" tax was instituted, I believe, around 2001 during Turkey's financial crisis. It's a pretty ridiculous tax.


----------



## TrueBulgarian

CNGL said:


> And over 75 years old (I believe) it becomes valid forever .


That's the case in Bulgaria too, so my grandparents had an issue when checking in online for a flight recently. As their ID cards are valid indefinitely and there was no such option on the airline's website, they just chose the furthest possible date. At the airport (not in Bulgaria) there were some issues, however after several minutes they were just let through.


----------



## El Tiburon

The most expensive passport is the Cuban passport required by the brothers Fidel and Raul Castro of Cubans who live in the United States and want to visit Cuba, even if they hold a passport from another country. The Castro brothers charge $400 USD for a passport that's valid for 2 years and which can be renewed twice for another 2 years each time at a cost of $180 USD. The total cost of the Cuban passports comes to $760 USD for 6 years, and they are a great source of income for the communist dictatorship.


----------



## Corvinus

^^
Perfect example of how the citizens / people have to come up financially for failures of Socialist/Communist "economies". 

Like in Hungary, the motorway sticker costs roughly double that of the Austrian, yet the network length is about half of it. The price of half a century Commie-style economy that has to be borne afterwards by today's citizens.


----------



## italystf

Also Switzerland and Slovenia have pretty expensive vignettes, compared to Austria.


----------



## italystf

LMB said:


> Switzerland is the cheapest I know, around 32€ at the moment. For the comparison, Czech costs ~60€.


Yes, but they have only the yearly vignette. If you drive only 20km on Swiss motorways in a year you still have to pay 32€, that wouldn't happen if they have a weekly or monthly vignette.


----------



## KHS

*New "Schengen" border crossings Klek and Zaton Doli*

Klek & Zaton Doli


----------



## piotr71

I will be crossing this border soon


----------



## hofburg

KHS said:


> Klek & Zaton Doli


what's new? (it has been a while since I've been there)


----------



## KHS

Everything! Brand new border crossings 

dnevnik.hr

dubrovacki.hr


----------



## Pascal20a

Any new about the A1??


----------



## FiveYears

Section Vrgorac-Ploče should be done till the end of year.


----------



## cinxxx

Was this one crossable before Schengen?









https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/14394473









https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/14394471


----------



## alserrod

Are fences set to remember that you cannot cross there or only to avoid cars and let only pedestrians and bikes crossing there?


----------



## alserrod

Have a look to this road. It is in Spain, region of Navarra, approaching to former custom control to France (nowadays no controls)

But... for several kilometres, just several metres in the left of the road.... you have the border.

https://maps.google.es/maps?q=ronca...=wRs1FS4ajiB12Ia1BYqNdQ&cbp=12,59.97,,0,-2.38


In the picture it appears a little tunnel and I wonder where it goes the border there...



By the way, ahead you'll see a 360º bridge!!


----------



## cinxxx

alserrod said:


> Are fences set to remember that you cannot cross there or only to avoid cars and let only pedestrians and bikes crossing there?


Now the fences are only to avoid cars. But being Schengen area, you can cross the border almost everywhere. I was wondering pre-Schengen.


----------



## Road_UK

I remember the passport checks between the Netherlands and Germany, but I also remember pedestrian areas on borders where there was nothing, usually in joint parks and forests.


----------



## Skyline_

Nicosia, Cyprus.


----------



## Verso

Jerusalem is also divided.


----------



## Attus

^^ Jerusalem is de facto not divided. And according to current rulers (i.e. the Jews) the city is de iure, too, undivided - although a vast majority of the world has another opnion about this question. 
But, getting back to our topic, there are no fences and no border crossing posts inside Jerusalem, the city is, by the fact, unified.


----------



## g.spinoza

Nicosia is also divided de facto, not de iure (nobody recognizes Northern Cyprus).


----------



## alserrod

Can El Paso / Ciudad Juarez be considered as divided cities?


----------



## OulaL

Skyline_ said:


>


Why Greek and Turkish flags? The Republic of Cyprus is an independent state, and KKTC... well it at least claims to be one?


----------



## Skyline_

OulaL said:


> Why Greek and Turkish flags? The Republic of Cyprus is an independent state, and KKTC... well it at least claims to be one?


For the same reason the flag of Turkey is placed on the other side, while Cyprus is NOT Turkish territory.... :bash:


----------



## Skyline_

Verso said:


> Jerusalem is also divided.



Jerusalem is not a capital.... Tel Aviv is!


----------



## g.spinoza

Skyline_ said:


> Jerusalem is not a capital.... Tel Aviv is!


According to Israeli Fundamental Chart, Jerusalem is the capital.


----------



## Verso

Attus said:


> ^^ Jerusalem is de facto not divided. And according to current rulers (i.e. the Jews) the city is de iure, too, undivided - although a vast majority of the world has another opnion about this question.
> But, getting back to our topic, there are no fences and no border crossing posts inside Jerusalem, the city is, by the fact, unified.


Aren't there checkpoints between Israel and the Palestinian territories?


----------



## Attus

Verso said:


> Aren't there checkpoints between Israel and the Palestinian territories?


There are. But, according to Izraeli laws, the whole, undivided territory of Jerusalem belongs to Izrael so taht checkpoints are placed at the border between Jerusalem and the rest of Palestinian territories. 
Check e.g. this point, it is directly at the border between both parts of the city. Clearly no checkpoint here.


----------



## Skyline_

g.spinoza said:


> According to Israeli Fundamental Chart, Jerusalem is the capital.


Internationally, Jerusalem is not recognized as the capital of Israel.


----------



## g.spinoza

Skyline_ said:


> Internationally, Jerusalem is not recognized as the capital of Israel.


So what? If the international community wouldn't recognize Rome as capital of Italy, Rome would be capital nonetheless.


----------



## Verso

Attus said:


> There are. But, according to Izraeli laws, the whole, undivided territory of Jerusalem belongs to Izrael so taht checkpoints are placed at the border between Jerusalem and the rest of Palestinian territories.
> Check e.g. this point, it is directly at the border between both parts of the city. Clearly no checkpoint here.


So there are no checkpoints _within_ Jerusalem itself?


----------



## Attus

Skyline_ said:


> Internationally, Jerusalem is not recognized as the capital of Israel.


1., I think, no one, except for the state of Izrael, ha the right to decide what city is the capital of that state. 
2., Recognized or not recognized, Jerusalem is de facto the capital city of Izrael. If, for some specific reason, from tomorrow morning on the UN will not recognize Berlin as the capital of Germany - Berlin will remain the the capital of Germany.


----------



## Attus

Verso said:


> So there are no checkpoints _within_ Jerusalem itself?


No, not any. There's even a tram crossing the line once in every six minutes  However, there are checkings on board: you're checked whether you have a ticket ;-)


----------



## Skyline_

You don't really understand what's going on. Northern Cyprus is not internationally recognized. Because Turkey recognizes it, it doesn't mean it is an actual state. 
In the case of Jerusalem, there is a problem too!

When there is no international (UN) recognition, there is a problem...
If you can't see it, you need to learn about politics.


----------



## Verso

Sarajevo is also divided in a way, but there are no checkpoints between the Federation of B&H and the Republic of Srpska either.


----------



## Attus

We all understand it perfectly. And we all know that facts are not depending on recognitions. The Earth was several centuries long not recognized going around the Sun - it was going around the Sun nevertheless. Northern Cyprus is actually a state and Jerusalem is actually the capital city of Izrael - recognized or not. 

And, please, let's stop this off-topic discussion. 

What is on-topic: no border crossing inside Jerusalem, the city is de facto undivided and the line which is called by some people and organizations as 'border', can be crossed actually without realizing you've crossed it. However, there are checkpoints between Jerusalem and the rest of the Palestine, although it is internationally not recognized as a border.


----------



## Skyline_

Attus said:


> We all understand it perfectly. And we all know that facts are not depending on recognitions. The Earth was several centuries long not recognized going around the Sun - it was going around the Sun nevertheless. Northern Cyprus is actually a state and Jerusalem is actually the capital city of Izrael - recognized or not.
> 
> And, please, let's stop this off-topic discussion.
> 
> What is on-topic: no border crossing inside Jerusalem, the city is de facto undivided and the line which is called by some people and organizations as 'border', can be crossed actually without realizing you've crossed it. However, there are checkpoints between Jerusalem and the rest of the Palestine, although it is internationally not recognized as a border.


I strongly advise you to think before you post. You are wrong.

Northern Cyprus is occupied territory, against international law and against UN resolutions. It is not a state. Only the Republic of Cyprus is a State, not Northern Cypriot occupied lands. If you don't know international law and politics, it is your problem, not mine.


----------



## albertocsc

I agree with Attus.

And the reason Nicosia is in the thread, is because recognized or not, there is a border with real fence and checkpoints/passings.
Although the border is not internationally recognized, it makes Cyprus' capital divided in reality, what doesn't happen in Sarajevo or Jerusalem, as the border in there is not physical.


----------



## Road_UK

I also agree with Attus. Northern Cyprus formally doesn't exist.


----------



## Verso

Skyline_ said:


> Northern Cyprus is occupied territory, against international law and against UN resolutions. It is not a state. Only the Republic of Cyprus is a State, not Northern Cypriot occupied lands.


Then why did you post Nicosia in this thread?


----------



## g.spinoza

Skyline_ said:


> You don't really understand what's going on. Northern Cyprus is not internationally recognized. Because Turkey recognizes it, it doesn't mean it is an actual state.
> In the case of Jerusalem, there is a problem too!


There's a substantial difference you obviously fail to see.

Deciding which city is capital of a state is an internal affair, and no foreign country has a right to say anything.

A country invading another one and unilaterally annexing territory and part of the capital city is an international affair, so what UN says is very important.

So, as you can see, things are different and not comparable.


----------



## OulaL

Skyline_ said:


> For the same reason the flag of Turkey is placed on the other side, while Cyprus is NOT Turkish territory.... :bash:


Is there any other reason than "they put a flag too"?

No one claims Northern Cyprus as part of Turkey, not even Turkey itself - so why is there a Turkish flag?

Also no one claims Cyprus or any part thereof as part of Greece, not even Greece itself - so why is there a Greek flag?


----------



## alserrod

There is a neutral zone in the middle of those countries or whatever they are.

In the middle... there is an old airport, and the famous picture is a plane in the middle of nothing (neutral zone, nobody does anything)


Wanna read more?

Sorry... it is not in English but these pictures are quite interesting

(I knew I had read about it and finally I found)


http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/nicosia-el-aeropuerto-congelado-en-el-tiempo-2/


----------



## ea1969

^^
Probably because both communities in Cyprus use the Greek and Turkish flags as symbols of their ethnicity and not as state ones.


----------



## Skyline_

OulaL said:


> Is there any other reason than "they put a flag too"?
> 
> No one claims Northern Cyprus as part of Turkey, not even Turkey itself - so why is there a Turkish flag?
> 
> Also no one claims Cyprus or any part thereof as part of Greece, not even Greece itself - so why is there a Greek flag?


Actually, Northern Cyprus is occupied by Armed Forces of Turkey so Turkey DOES claim Northern Cyprus as a part of it.


----------



## brisavoine

Some of you had asked me about it for a long time, well here it is. They have finally set up the EU sign "France" at the Franco-Brazilian border. :banana:

The sign was set up just at the exit of the bridge over the Oyapock River, at the entrance on French territory. The picture was taken by 2 adventure-seeking girls from Marseille last February. To the left you can see the pointed white roofs of the border checkpoint.










On this aerial view from January 2011, I have indicated with a small red square the exact location of the "France" sign. You can see the pointed white roofs of the border checkpoint to the left.


----------



## Moravian

Austrian-Hungarian border in Rechnitz (September 2012)

Some of my pictures:


----------



## kob's

Skyline_ said:


> Very funny.
> The difference is that my city is not multi-ethnic anymore. Jerusalem still is.


Debunking every miserable argument that you claimed is indeed very funny. I simply gave you a taste of your own medicine... :lol:
The only reason that your town is no longer multi-ethnic is that you carried out an ethnic cleansing of the Turkish Muslims. If you claim that Jerusalem needs to be an "international city" because of the (untrue) fact that it once was an "Arab city". then you should declare Thessaloniki as such. By that logic you could say that also London, Paris, Cairo, Delhi and many other multi-cultural cities should be an "international city"' but I must say that it is one twisted logic.
Anyway, you proved once again what an awkward sense of logic you have. You'd better not throw stones at someone else's house while yours is made out of glass...


----------



## Moravian

Austrian-Hungarian border at Geschriebenstein - the highest peak in Burgenland and West-Hungary

Some of my pictures from April 2012:


----------



## Skyline_

kob's said:


> Debunking every miserable argument that you claimed is indeed very funny. I simply gave you a taste of your own medicine... :lol:
> The only reason that your town is no longer multi-ethnic is that you carried out an ethnic cleansing of the Turkish Muslims. If you claim that Jerusalem needs to be an "international city" because of the (untrue) fact that it once was an "Arab city". then you should declare Thessaloniki as such. By that logic you could say that also London, Paris, Cairo, Delhi and many other multi-cultural cities should be an "international city"' but I must say that it is one twisted logic.
> Anyway, you proved once again what an awkward sense of logic you have. You'd better not throw stones at someone else's house while yours is made out of glass...



The only miserable thing here is the way you think and write.
There was no ethnic cleansing in Thessaloniki but exchange of populations, but you are too illiterate to know that. Additionally, Thessaloniki was founded by Macedonians (Greeks), London was founded by Britons (although there was a Roman settlement too), Delhi was always an Indian city and Cairo was Egyptian since....forever. The only thing is the ancient Egyptians became Arabs, gradually. Jerusalem is a totally different case from any point of view you look at it: Politically, ethnically, religiously etc. 

It was a Semitic city, in prehistorical times, before the Hebrews were attested in history. Semitic is a general term, not an ethnonym.
It has been a city conquered by many nations, empires etc.


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## Moravian

Austrian-Hungarian border near Sopron (between Sankt Margarethen im Burgenland and Sopronköhida) - the memorial place of the so called Paneuropean picnic in 1989 :cheers:

Some of my pictures made in September 2012:


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## cinxxx

Great job Moravian. Thanks for getting this thread back on topic


----------



## Verso

Moravian said:


> Austrian-Hungarian border at Geschriebenstein - the highest peak in Burgenland and West-Hungary


The highest point of the Hungarian Alps.


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## Skyline_

Borders of Greece - Albania, opposite Corfu.


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## Moravian

Verso said:


> The highest point of the Hungarian Alps.


Yes, exactly. It is interesting feeling - to be in Hungary and in the Alps.....Hungary (even if they lost Burgenland/Őrvidék after the WW1) could be counted among the alpine countries.....Geschriebenstein/Írott-kő in Günser Gebirge/Kőszegi-hegység is the highest peak in Burgenland and West-Hungary. This eastern parts (foothills) of the Alps in Hungary are called Alpokalja. I could recommend the wide view from the old tower. The location between the Alps and Panonia Lowlands is really attracting....


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## alserrod

Verin (E) and Chaves (PT) have asked their respective governments for a bus licence.

http://www.laregion.es/noticia/250967/verin/chaves/urgen/linea/autobuses/interurbanos/

https://maps.google.es/maps?saddr=v...abN46DTFaZmW0JJRIDw&oq=chaves&t=h&mra=ls&z=11


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## Moravian

Slovak-Hungarian border upon Danube in Komarno (Elisabeth road bridge)

The following pictures made in May 2011:


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## Attus

^^ I lived in Esztergom 1992-98. I saw that bridge in ruins quite often...


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## Moravian

Attus said:


> ^^ I lived in Esztergom 1992-98. I saw that bridge in ruins quite often...


You mean Mária Valéria híd/Maria-Valeria-bridge between Esztergom (HU) and Sturovo=Párkány (SK).....destroyed in the end of the WW2 and rebuilt after 2000.

Some pictures from 2011:




























I wrote about another Danube bridge between HU and SK in Komarom/Komarno...


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## Alex_ZR

These two bridges are very similar and were projected by the same architect. I have also crossed both of them in July 2012 (photos posted last year).


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## Skyline_

Crossing from Ireland to the UK (Republic of Ireland - Northern Ireland).


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## Skyline_

Bulgaria - Greece border crossing. Notice that the Bulgarian border station is purely cosmetic now. No checking there! Fast forward to 7:00


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## pobre diablo

^^

If I remember correctly, it is being used for checks when entering Bulgaria.


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## italystf

Soprom is where the first breach on the Iron Curtain occurred in 1989, some months before the fall of the Berlin wall. Many East Germans escaped to West Germany via CZ, H and A.
I didn't know there was such a memorial, maybe one day I'll go there since my cousin lives in Austria not far away from there.


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## Skyline_

pobre diablo said:


> ^^
> 
> If I remember correctly, it is being used for checks when entering Bulgaria.


Things have changed since Bulgaria signed the Schengen Agreement. It was activated a few months ago, I think. Maximum one year!


----------



## Moravian

SK/AT border crossing - Bratislava-Jarovce/Kittsee (old road)

Pictures/2008:


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## Moravian

AT/CZ border crossing Drasenhofen/Mikulov (on the national roads B7 and I/52)

Pictures/summer 2008:


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## Moravian

AT/SK border crossing Berg/Bratislava-Petrzalka (on national roads B9 and I/61)

Note: before 1989 there was only one road border crossing between AT and SK...

pictures/summer 2008:


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## Moravian

AT/HU border crossing Nickelsdorf/Hegyeshalom - old road Vienna - Budapest (B10 and 1.hu)

Pictures/2008:


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## TEBC

OulaL said:


> Why Greek and Turkish flags? The Republic of Cyprus is an independent state, and KKTC... well it at least claims to be one?


great question


----------



## Skyline_

Moravian said:


> AT/SK border crossing Berg/Bratislava-Petrzalka (on national roads B9 and I/61)
> 
> Note: before 1989 there was only one road border crossing between AT and SK...
> 
> pictures/summer 2008:


Is this border station still in operation?


----------



## Moravian

Skyline_ said:


> Is this border station still in operation?


Since December 2007 Slovakia has been the member of Schengen zone. So the permanent controls there were definitely cancelled. The old customs building on SK side of the border were partially removed...


----------



## OulaL

Skyline_ said:


> Crossing from Ireland to the UK (Republic of Ireland - Northern Ireland).


So the border is where the left edge line changes from dashed to solid. :lol:


----------



## italystf

OulaL said:


> So the border is where the left edge line changes from dashed to solid. :lol:


Do they avoid to put border signs for political reasons? (to show that Ireland is a single entity)

http://maps.google.it/maps?q=belfas...=20JXGDHFEz04ibVBGbfkAQ&cbp=12,11.95,,0,-4.52
There's only a sign that tell that in UK speed limits are in mph and not kph.


----------



## Moravian

italystf said:


> Soprom is where the first breach on the Iron Curtain occurred in 1989, some months before the fall of the Berlin wall. Many East Germans escaped to West Germany via CZ, H and A.
> I didn't know there was such a memorial, maybe one day I'll go there since my cousin lives in Austria not far away from there.


O.k, go ahead. My idea during last trip there was there I did not want to go via Klingenbach main border crossing (from Sopron) and it is - so far as I know - still not allowed to pass the frontier road to Mörbisch by car. So the local road with this historical important memorial was the best option for route between Sopron and Mörbisch or Rust am Neusiedler See (really pleasant towns).......Yes, Paneuropean Picknic was the beginning of the final downfall of the Iron Curtain....


----------



## OulaL

italystf said:


> Do they avoid to put border signs for political reasons? (to show that Ireland is a single entity)


Probably so. And even if there was a border sign on one day, it probably wouldn't be there on the next one.


----------



## gdolniak

italystf said:


> Do they avoid to put border signs for political reasons? (to show that Ireland is a single entity)
> 
> http://maps.google.it/maps?q=belfas...=20JXGDHFEz04ibVBGbfkAQ&cbp=12,11.95,,0,-4.52
> There's only a sign that tell that in UK speed limits are in mph and not kph.


If you zoom out from there and go right to the Dublin Rd on the map, then zoom in, you can get a photo of this building. Wonder if this used to be an old border point?


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## DanielFigFoz

Perhaps that's where the customs were.

Apparently they've started to put these signs up in County, from the Belfast Telegraph










This very interesting website has lots of Irish border customs photos:

http://www.hm-waterguard.org.uk/Offices%20&%20Buildings-Ireland.htm

Such as:




























^^ From the above website


----------



## Moravian

PK/CZ - old border crossing - Olza river in Cieszyn/Tesin - in summer 2005 before Schengen...


----------



## Moravian

AT/CZ - road border crossing Gmuend/Ceske Velenice before Schengen (in 2005). The remark "Zollamt" already removed as the Czech Republic had joined EU in 2004:


----------



## italystf

Old pics of the inner Irish border:

1953








http://www.panoramio.com/photo/58587566

1966
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3722240632/


----------



## alserrod

Moravian said:


>



Only two lanes, one of them cut and one car in the opposite direction. Seems not to have had many traffic then. Is that right?

How is current situation?


----------



## Moravian

alserrod said:


> Only two lanes, one of them cut and one car in the opposite direction. Seems not to have had many traffic then. Is that right?
> 
> How is current situation?


Yes, since 90s there has been new border bridge on the beltway road so the heavy traffic was diverted out of the center of "twin-city". That issue was very urgent. The street would have been one big parking place. Another issue is that the whole bypass was completed (on Czech side of the border) with significant delay....
And there are two old bridges and before Schengen implementation there was one-way-regime for car (not so for pedestrians) on each bridge. After 2007 the border checkpoints were simply removed.


----------



## piotr71

I have crossed Tesin-Cieszyn border many times nowadays as well as in the communism era. It sometimes took 3-4 hours waiting in very long queue on ČSSR (Czechoslovak Socialist Republic) soil, when returning to PRL (Polish People Republic) after some shopping made by my parents on the other side of Olza river. I think it was the busiest border crossing with Czechoslovakia, back then. Custom officers, both Czechs and Poles, presented quite psychopathic attitude and cared only about the amount of bribe. They could seize all the goods (such as food, toys, socks, stockings, pants or even stupid bras) brought over the limit, unless you paid or had a special permission to carry more than allowed . I even remember "suspected" cars unscrewed to the last bolt. 

Once, my 2 year old sister hid her doll under her back and refused to show it to a custom officer, who had become angry and started to shout on her. My father used some costly tricks and eventually "convinced" him to leave her alone. She is now 37 and still keeps that nice doll. Very exceptional, black skin doll.


----------



## italystf

Welcome to Slovenia


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## Verso

Welcome to Slovenia II


----------



## Bogdy

Moravian said:


> You mean Mária Valéria híd/Maria-Valeria-bridge between Esztergom (HU) and Sturovo=Párkány (SK).....destroyed in the end of the WW2 and rebuilt after 2000.











http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mária_Valéria_Bridge


----------



## Palance

piotr71 said:


> I have crossed Tesin-Cieszyn border many times nowadays as well as in the communism era. It sometimes took 3-4 hours waiting in very long queue on ČSSR (Czechoslovak Socialist Republic) soil, when returning to PRL (Polish People Republic) after some shopping made by my parents on the other side of Olza river. I think it was the busiest border crossing with Czechoslovakia, back then. .


Didn't you need (exit-)visa to cross that border, or could one just cross the border whenever you wanted? (With the waiting times of course).


----------



## piotr71

As far as I remember we did not need visa to cross borders within the area contaminated by communism. However, it was a certain difference with obtaining passport allowing you to go out of iron curtain or that dedicated only for communist countries. 

Apart from passport, either for Western or Eastern block countries, every citizen leaving Poland had to have a special currency book. That book let you carry a certain and very limited amount of foreign money in the wallet. In the seventies it was just 10 USD a poor Pole could have on himself. Later on, in the eighties, the limit was increased to over 100 USD. Each cent carried abroad was recorded in the book.


----------



## Moravian

piotr71 said:


> As far as I remember we did not need visa to cross borders within the area contaminated by communism. However, it was a certain difference with obtaining passport allowing you to go out of iron curtain or that dedicated only for communist countries.
> 
> Apart from passport, either for Western or Eastern block countries, every citizen leaving Poland had to have a special currency book. That book let you carry a certain and very limited amount of foreign money in the wallet. In the seventies it was just 10 USD a poor Pole could have on himself. Later on, in the eighties, the limit was increased to over 100 USD. Each cent carried abroad was recorded in the book.


And keep in mind that in 80s the state of emergency was annouced in Poland and it brough another obstacles. Yes, in general (at least in 70s and 80s) no need for visas to travel within communism block of countries. The fact is that there were some difference among countries in former eastern block concerning the travelling abroad conditions.... Sure, Yugoslavia was absolutely the special case. 
As noted there were various foreign currency and customs restrictions and customs and passport controls among communist countries were - usually - rigorous and time consuming. Customs authorities were the rulers at the borders and the citizens - many times - served as their fair game....hno:


----------



## Attus

In the 70s and 80s we were free to travel inside the Eastern European block (i.e. H, CS, PL, DDR, RO, BG). However, the list of goods, prohibited to take from one country to another one was quite long. Practically nothing could be bought in Czechoslovakia and taken to Hungary. Custom officers examined our bags and cars very accurately. 
The main reason for that was shortage of good all around the region. 

The current (summer 2012) situation in Czeszyn - Cesky Tesin:

Source: attus.hu; Click for large picture

Source: attus.hu; Click for large picture

Source: attus.hu; Click for large picture

Source: attus.hu; Click for large picture


----------



## Corvinus

piotr71 said:


> Apart from passport, either for Western or Eastern block countries, every citizen leaving Poland had to have a special currency book. That book let you carry a certain and very limited amount of foreign money in the wallet. In the seventies it was just 10 USD a poor Pole could have on himself. Later on, in the eighties, the limit was increased to over 100 USD. Each cent carried abroad was recorded in the book.


Very similar for Hungary, of course. One had a yearly frame of hard currency allowed to be legally purchased at the National Bank; it was 70 USD IIRC. You were allowed to carry these amounts with you when travelling to the West. Other than these, export of hard currency was not permitted. 
70 USD/yr does not sound much, but taking the purchasing power of Socialist wages into account, many people could not afford to buy even that much. Others were luckier with e.g. senior relatives having the money to buy hard currency, but not needing it since not travelling. Thus, many Hungarians carried more hard currency than legally bought when travelling westward - and always feared the border guards.
Many Eastern bloc tourists in the West spent their nights in tents and lived on canned food to allow their scarce hard currency budget be sufficient for the unavoidable rest (gasoline for example). 



Attus said:


> Practically nothing could be bought in Czechoslovakia and taken to Hungary. Custom officers examined our bags and cars very accurately.


My uncle once bought some pairs of those cheap Czechoslovak sandals and wrapped them as sandwiches. It wasn't discovered :banana:


----------



## piotr71

Border check point inside the country?

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?saddr=K%C4%99ty,+Poland&daddr=Vilnius,+Lithuania&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=54.316774,25.505362&spn=0.006997,0.021136&sll=56.295586,27.442474&sspn=0.212992,0.676346&geocode=FZoe-QIdEFElASmhkbl7iZkWRzERkTmsxaFutA%3BFbN1QgMdo7yBASn1CGRc-5PdRjFA3OlwjNEABA&oq=kaunata&mra=pr&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=54.31754,25.504036&panoid=IyCBwycBtn-UYGDKvgDI1A&cbp=12,179.29,,0,0


----------



## italystf

piotr71 said:


> Border check point inside the country?
> 
> https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?sadd...oid=IyCBwycBtn-UYGDKvgDI1A&cbp=12,179.29,,0,0


It's likely a police post that stops random people, probably to prevent smuggling or illegal immigration. It's near the outer Schengen border, the new Iron Curtain.


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## alserrod

Quite curious!!


----------



## piotr71

italystf said:


> It's likely a police post that stops random people, probably to prevent smuggling or illegal immigration. It's near the outer Schengen border, the new Iron Curtain.


I searched here and there and got some piece of information about that place. Those two chaps in guard's booth probably check all foreign (not known to them as local) objects moving alongside. So, this booth works pretty much like a regular border's check point.


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## WB2010

It is at the entrance to the Dieveniskes/Dziewieniszki appendix, Lithuanian territory almost entirely surrounded by Belarus. It is much easier to control everyone entering this zone (there is only one access from the rest of Lithuania) than the whole state border that surrounds the appendix (around 110 kilometres !).


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## cinxxx

*(Former) Tripoint BRD-DDR-CSSR - Today Tripoint between German Bavaria and Saxony and Czech Republic*
visited by me today


Dreiländereck BRD-DDR-CSSR by cinxxx, on Flickr


Dreiländereck BRD-DDR-CSSR by cinxxx, on Flickr


Dreiländereck BRD-DDR-CSSR by cinxxx, on Flickr


Dreiländereck BRD-DDR-CSSR by cinxxx, on Flickr


Dreiländereck BRD-DDR-CSSR by cinxxx, on Flickr


Dreiländereck BRD-DDR-CSSR by cinxxx, on Flickr


Dreiländereck BRD-DDR-CSSR by cinxxx, on Flickr


Dreiländereck BRD-DDR-CSSR by cinxxx, on Flickr

more pictures here


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## hofburg

I like the last pic.


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## Road_UK

I've used a very small border crossing once between Poland and Lithuania, the road that's tucked right against the border with Belarus. There's me in an English reg Sprinter, and there's that happily smiling border guard waving me through, probably glad he has someone to wave at...


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## italystf

Last autumn I travelled on this road. It's entirely in Austria but on the edge you can see Hungarian border stones. I wonder if it was possible to drive there during communism.

Later I crossed this small border crossing in H -> A direction and there wasn't any sign at the border. I realized I was in Austria only when I saw the Moschendorf entry sign. 1 km before I saw a border stone on the edge on the road (where the actual border is) but I though I was still in Hungary and the stone was marking the border _along_ the road and not _across_ it.


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## alserrod

Was it paved?. Can it be a new road made because in the same fence no grounds were used?


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> Was it paved?. Can it be a new road made because in the same fence no grounds were used?


The road along the border is paved but asphalt is very old and crappy. The local border crossing is also paved but it looks newer, probably post-2007.


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> Last autumn I travelled on this road. It's entirely in Austria but on the edge you can see Hungarian border stones. I wonder if it was possible to drive there during communism.
> 
> Later I crossed this small border crossing in H -> A direction and there wasn't any sign at the border. I realized I was in Austria only when I saw the Moschendorf entry sign. 1 km before I saw a border stone on the edge on the road (where the actual border is) but I though I was still in Hungary and the stone was marking the border _along_ the road and not _across_ it.


there is similar thing in Croatia, also at Hungarian border 
http://maps.google.it/maps?q=gussin...etto+di+Güssing,+Burgenland,+Austria&t=m&z=16


----------



## Palance

cinxxx said:


> *(Former) Tripoint BRD-DDR-CSSR - Today Tripoint between German Bavaria and Saxony and Czech Republic*
> visited by me today


Nice. I wonder if there are any picturue of this area from the Iron Curtain-era.


----------



## RipleyLV

Verso said:


> Welcome to Slovenia II


Notice how the pavement changes.


----------



## cinxxx

x-type said:


> there is similar thing in Croatia, also at Hungarian border
> http://maps.google.it/maps?q=gussin...etto+di+Güssing,+Burgenland,+Austria&t=m&z=16


That's interesting due to the fact that Croatia is not in Schengen, not technically in EU yet.


----------



## alserrod

alserrod said:


> Ok,.... let's change to the other corner of Europe.
> 
> I found this (in the middle of the fog).
> 
> The picture is taken in Spain. There is an unpaved path that I do not know if it is entirely within the border or full in the Portuguese side but it takes a lot of kilometres.
> 
> It seems that the stone in the middle of the cross is pointing the border so going to the left will be Portugal (a part of the path that it is paved and in a few meters turns again to inside Portugal)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> taken from here
> 
> https://maps.google.es/maps?q=rosal...=75QjBglo-Z43UQqO0F2Esw&cbp=12,321.35,,0,9.96


And (Schengen in this case) look at this case I wrote just a couple of days ago.

Maybe few people got notice of it because it was in the middle of another discussion.


----------



## darko06

Croatian, soon European side on the Debeli brijeg border crossing with Montenegro. The signs are already there: SVI PUTNICI-ALL PASPORTS, the sign EU-EEA-CH was not enlighted. Average waiting time per one passenger car: five minutes. It seems that Croatian (soon European) border and customs control officers are doing their job well.


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## Skyline_

From Portugal, into Spain!


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## alserrod

Seems nice. We have posted too many borders. Someone without any fence. Other ones with controls but this seems to be the most ready border control for this issue.

How is Croatian process for being part of EU?

BTW, my parents are flying to Croatia on holidays tomorrow... If I can, I'll post any picture somewhere.


----------



## Skyline_

Although the UK and Ireland remain out of the Schengen Agreement, there are no border checks in Ireland (Republic to Northern Ireland).


----------



## alserrod

Skyline_ said:


> From Portugal, into Spain!



Nice video. Taken here
https://maps.google.es/?ll=37.236889,-7.391739&spn=0.07421,0.169086&t=h&z=13

It is where the Guadiana river, one of the longest in the Iberian peninsula ends and arrives to the Ocean.

I do not know the name given in Portugal to that bridge but in Spain is called the 5th centenary bridge because it was opened 500 years after America discovery (and the ships departed to America very, very near from there)


By the way.... the first international cross of the first (E-01) European Road.


----------



## darko06

alserrod said:


> Seems nice. We have posted too many borders. Someone without any fence. Other ones with controls but this seems to be the most ready border control for this issue.
> 
> How is Croatian process for being part of EU?
> 
> BTW, my parents are flying to Croatia on holidays tomorrow... If I can, I'll post any picture somewhere.


Croatia is set to become the 28th member of EU at July 1st this year. All parliaments of EU member states have voted to ratify the Treaty of Accession of R of Croatia, except German Bundestag and Bundesrat, who will ratify it in May.


----------



## alserrod

Will Schengen apply at the same time?


----------



## darko06

No, it is scheduled to apply sometime at the end of 2015 (however it depends on German and Dutch). There is a lot to do regarding Schengen agreement on Croatian airports. Road borders seem to be prepaired for Schengen well.


----------



## albertocsc

This is the border crossing between Isaccea (Romînia) and Orlivka (Ukraine). At the moment it is a local crossing (only for residents in the area), but I think that if it was open for everyone, as the only border post between Dobrogea/Dobruja and Ukraine, it would be an important shortcut within E87 (not having to cross Moldova anymore).

http://goo.gl/maps/tGqdX


There have been attempts to introduce a ferry between the port seen in the picture (Isaccea) and Ukraine, but authorities wasn’t willing to change the border status from local to international, so it didn’t come to reality.



I will always think that a bridge would be much better, as I told in the Romanian forum some years ago, but its design would be kind of complicated, and I do not see it in a near future. The bridge would be best located between the two towns said, as if it were to the east, it would affect Danube Delta, and if it was to the east, the detour for E87 would be worse.



This doesn’t mean that Brăila-Smîrdan bridge shouldn’t be built. Of course it should, so then not only drivers from Black Sea litoral would be able to reach Ukraine much easier with my proposed bridge, but also drivers from Bucharest and Western Balkans, with both bridges.


----------



## Eulanthe

darko06 said:


> No, it is scheduled to apply sometime at the end of 2015 (however it depends on German and Dutch). There is a lot to do regarding Schengen agreement on Croatian airports. Road borders seem to be prepaired for Schengen well.


I'm not convinced Croatia is ready at all. They are being incredibly lax on the Slovenian border to the point where they're not even scanning passports, they don't seem to have enacted any real security measures on the lengthy Bosnian border and - if they're taking 5 minutes to check one car at the MNE border, then they're acting like idiots with respect to soon-to-be-EU traffic. 

A good example - I went to Zeljava airbase (photos to come...) and there is no sign of any police control there. The Bosnians have a hut on their side of the border, but the Croatians - nothing. There's no sign of any construction there, yet it's a very obvious place to have a guard hut.

For me, the best solution would be to work towards getting Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Albania into Schengen at the same time. I'd go one further and tie Romanian and Bulgarian accession into that, so that the entire Balkans (well, not Kosovo, but...) enters as one, meaning that the external borders will be far easier to secure with a joint effort. As it stands, it'll be possible for someone to enter Albania, head up through Montenegro and Bosnia and then only have to make it into Croatia before they're home free. Not a great situation.


----------



## Road_UK

Eulanthe said:


> For me, the best solution would be to work towards getting Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Albania into Schengen at the same time.


Um... They ought to work towards getting their shit together first, before they'd even be considered membership, Croatia excepted.


----------



## LMB

Skyline_ said:


> Although the UK and Ireland remain out of the Schengen Agreement, there are no border checks in Ireland (Republic to Northern Ireland).


...because they have their own agreement.


----------



## alserrod

Will an Irish citizen have a special control taking a flight from Belfast?

If it doesn't, illegal emigration can be done.


----------



## Road_UK

From Belfast to where? All EU citizens will get the same treatment as British ones. There is no such thing as illegal immigration of EU citizens within the EU, some eastern European countries excepted.


----------



## Fatfield

alserrod said:


> Will an Irish citizen have a special control taking a flight from Belfast?
> 
> If it doesn't, illegal emigration can be done.


What do you mean?


----------



## alserrod

Road_UK said:


> From Belfast to where? All EU citizens will get the same treatment as British ones. There is no such thing as illegal immigration of EU citizens within the EU, some eastern European countries excepted.


or to the UK... it will be without passport control


----------



## Road_UK

alserrod said:


> or to the UK... it will be without passport control


That doesn't matter. An Irish citizen has as much right to live and work in London as someone from Yorkshire. There are no passport controls on the ferries between the Republic of Ireland and mainland UK. The Irish will take measures to prevent illegal immigration from the outside as much as the British.


----------



## alserrod

Ok., I see


----------



## Road_UK

You can move to the uk tomorrow and get a job if you wish. You're Spanish, right? But do bring your passport. You'll need it to get in as the uk is not in Schengen.


----------



## Skyline_

Road_UK said:


> You can move to the uk tomorrow and get a job if you wish. You're Spanish, right? But do bring your passport. You'll need it to get in as the uk is not in Schengen.


I think the national ID card will do, as well.... Or not?


----------



## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> For me, the best solution would be to work towards getting Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Albania into Schengen at the same time. I'd go one further and tie Romanian and Bulgarian accession into that, so that the entire Balkans (well, not Kosovo, but...) enters as one, meaning that the external borders will be far easier to secure with a joint effort. As it stands, it'll be possible for someone to enter Albania, head up through Montenegro and Bosnia and then only have to make it into Croatia before they're home free. Not a great situation.


As the Schengen agreement is not about human rights but trust, I would leave the whole Balkan corruption zone outside, including Greece excluding Slovenia.


----------



## Road_UK

Skyline_ said:


> I think the national ID card will do, as well.... Or not?


Sure.


----------



## f.ostman

piotr71 said:


> Border check point inside the country?
> 
> https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?sadd...oid=IyCBwycBtn-UYGDKvgDI1A&cbp=12,179.29,,0,0


I have been stopped and checked there! Yes, probably a permanent checkpoint.


----------



## alserrod

Road_UK said:


> Sure.


Sure... but almost all Spanish citizens who travel to the UK ask for a passport even if not specially required (as said, ID card is enough). Reason is that it is (or it was) so strange to see that document as a legal identification that sometimes it was a nightmare. 
The easiest way: ask for a passport, and all solved.


----------



## Eulanthe

Road_UK said:


> That doesn't matter. An Irish citizen has as much right to live and work in London as someone from Yorkshire. There are no passport controls on the ferries between the Republic of Ireland and mainland UK. The Irish will take measures to prevent illegal immigration from the outside as much as the British.


They will even proactively refuse admission to someone if they believe that their intention is to go to the other country. The Common Travel Area could be improved, but as it stands, it works well enough.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I don't think there are any legal distinctions between Irish and British citizens in the UK whatsoever and the only difference in Ireland is that British citizens can't vote in referenda.


----------



## Skyline_

MattiG said:


> As the Schengen agreement is not about human rights but trust, I would leave the whole Balkan corruption zone outside, including Greece excluding Slovenia.


So you think Slovenia is better than Greece? :bash::bash::bash:hno:


----------



## Verso

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Map_Index_of_perception_of_corruption.svg.png


----------



## alserrod

I'm bigger... Spain has more corruption rather than anyone.
Wanna list?

- Judge's premier (4th person in official protocol over all the country) resigned
- former treasurer for almost 20 years of the party that now is in the government is facing the judge and his passport has been retired (he cannot travel abroad)
- this person had a list of black money given to a lot of people, incluiding current premier minister. It is under investigation.
- King's son-in-law faces because a huge, huge corruption case. King's daughter faces judge too
- there are regions that it doesn't matter where you look at, corruption is everywhere

and... this afternoon... a 21 years old University student, being the premier or the youth section of the party in the government has got a public employment with 54000 eur/year (more than double nowadays in the Spanish average, specially in that area)



Please... if you consider Greece or Slovenia, include Spain too!!!!


off-topic end!!!


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Italy's bigger. At least in Spain scoundrels resigned or were forced to. In Italy they face no legal threats.


----------



## Road_UK

Well, they do, but when it gets closer to a shitstorm, they'll simply change the law.


----------



## cinxxx

^^Lol, last 2 posts remind me of Romania :lol:


----------



## LMB

Skyline_ said:


> So you think Slovenia is better than Greece? :bash::bash::bash:hno:


No, they are both in the same horrible league of most corrupt nations: http://euobserver.com/justice/120064

Privately, I've never met Slovenians complaining about their country.


----------



## MattiG

Skyline_ said:


> So you think Slovenia is better than Greece? :bash::bash::bash:hno:


Look at Transparency International corruption index. Slovenia rank 37, Greece 94. The rank of Greece is dropping, last year it was 80+.


----------



## Skyline_

I wouldn't trust those statistics too much....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Whatever list you compile, there will always be countries at the top and at the bottom.


----------



## g.spinoza

Remember that this is not a list of most corrupted countries, but of its _perception_. It may as well be a list of most pessimistic population...


----------



## italystf

A big populous country with corruption and economical issues (Romania, Greece, Spain,...) can generate more problems to the EU system than a smaller one with similar issues (Slovenia, Cyprus, Baltics,..).


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Map_Index_of_perception_of_corruption.svg.png


I'm surprised by the bad position of Austria, Ireland and South Korea.


----------



## hofburg

I think there is quite some corruption in Austria, but you know, their judicial system works.
As opposite to Slovenia, where there is a corruption but part of judicial power is still from communist era, and large part of it was formed during their successors lefty governments.


----------



## cinxxx

Hey, border crossings topic


----------



## fruitfly

When I was in Africa a few years ago, I took a trip from Windhoek, Namibia to Livingston, Zambia to see Victoria Fall. Here are a few border pix:









The Zambian border post at Katima Mulilo. Pretty run down. The Namibian one is quite new and modern.









After seeing Vic Fall, went over to the bridge between Zambia and Zimbabwe









A photo of my taxi driver on the Zambian side of the line on the bridge which shows that, technically, I was in Zimbabwe (never got as far as the border post, though).









Time to leave Zambia...









...and back to Namibia.


----------



## alserrod

Nice pics!!!

Where there custom controls?


----------



## fruitfly

alserrod said:


> Nice pics!!!
> 
> Where there custom controls?


Yes there were, for both Zam/Zim and Zam/Nam. The taxi driver in Livingston was able to take me onto the bridge and then back into Zambia without having to clear Zambian customs, as long as I was with him. Very helpful fellow.


----------



## remyskijumper

Just one question about Gibraltar. Why does the UK still persist that Gibraltar is exempt from the EU Customs Union and the VAT area?


----------



## Road_UK

Because it's technically not in the EU. Same goes for the Channel Islands.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Gibraltar is in the EU, unlike the Channel Islands


----------



## OulaL

Åland is also not a part of the Customs union/ VAT area, although it is a part of the EU.

So are for instance Büsingen am Hochrhein and Campione d'Italia.


----------



## Road_UK

DanielFigFoz said:


> Gibraltar is in the EU, unlike the Channel Islands


It's a part of the EU, as a British dependency, but not in the customs and trade union.


----------



## alserrod

I do not know the question of Gibraltar. But very close to there, in Ceuta there is no VAT (there is another direct tax but quite cheaper than VAT). Melilla and Canarias has the same consideration.

This makes the case of an offshore. In Gibraltar there are more entreprises than citizens... and guess why.

Smuggling and tax evasion are the main controls made by police. The case is the same if you come from Andorra (even if you go to France or Spain).

In my city we have a small airport and all flights are within EU. There are no controls except for London (passport only). But if you come from Canary islands they will check your luggage. Obviously they know you cannot carry too many tobacco or other goods to make smuggling... but they take care.

It is curious but the main airport control is with some national flights much, much than from any other country.
In the case of Ceuta or Melilla, controls will be stronger if you come by car (you can keep a lot of goods inside) than by helicopter, plane or ferry without car.


----------



## g.spinoza

OulaL said:


> Åland is also not a part of the Customs union/ VAT area, although it is a part of the EU.
> 
> So are for instance Büsingen am Hochrhein and Campione d'Italia.


Or Livigno.


----------



## markfos

Poland - Germany, Germany -Poland

by DSzumaher


----------



## Skyline_

markfos said:


> Poland - Germany, Germany -Poland
> 
> by DSzumaher


Impressive.... In the 20th century that would be unthinkable, especially after the end of WW2. You barely notice that you actually cross the borders.:cheers:


----------



## xrtn2

*Brasil - Argentina
*

Dionísio Cerqueira, Santa Catarina State, Brazil

Barracão, Parana State Brazil

Bernardo de Irigoiyen, Argentina





























Foz - Porto Iguazu


----------



## alserrod

This picture, in that border, could be in long mileage distances

https://maps.google.es/maps?q=Dioní...9,-53.64373&cbp=12,0,,0,0&photoid=po-51418943


----------



## Eulanthe

remyskijumper said:


> Just one question about Gibraltar. Why does the UK still persist that Gibraltar is exempt from the EU Customs Union and the VAT area?


It was allowed to remain outside, like many other places. 

There's no harm in it - the status of Gibraltar more or less keeps La Linea alive, after all.


----------



## Skyline_

xrtn2 said:


> *Brasil - Argentina
> *
> 
> Dionísio Cerqueira, Santa Catarina State, Brazil
> 
> Barracão, Parana State Brazil
> 
> Bernardo de Irigoiyen, Argentina
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foz - Porto Iguazu


I don't see any border check though. Do they cross the borders freely?


----------



## alserrod

According to African Union... it is a pity but all "European countries" with territories in Africa do not participate. I think it is a mistake because they have territories and citizens which can gain a lot just with relationships between near countries.
France, Portugal, Spain... are just some of them

And... all those countries have their languages as official in the African Union (in fact, English, Arabic, Swahili, French, Portuguese and Spanish are the six official languages)

BTW, Why Morocco hasn't joined too there?


----------



## Skyline_

alserrod said:


> According to African Union... it is a pity but all "European countries" with territories in Africa do not participate. I think it is a mistake because they have territories and citizens which can gain a lot just with relationships between near countries.
> France, Portugal, Spain... are just some of them
> 
> And... all those countries have their languages as official in the African Union (in fact, English, Arabic, Swahili, French, Portuguese and Spanish are the six official languages)
> 
> BTW, Why Morocco hasn't joined too there?


Morocco plays the role that Norway and Switzerland play in the EU. It's an outsider! :bash:


----------



## g.spinoza

alserrod said:


> BTW, Why Morocco hasn't joined too there?


Morocco was expelled because of the Sahrawi affair...


----------



## Verso

It wasn't expelled, it left voluntarily in 1984 when Western Sahara became a member (of the then-OAU).


----------



## x-type

does Turkey have a military forces on their border to EU?


----------



## Skyline_

x-type said:


> does Turkey have a military forces on their border to EU?


Yes, but its main concern is its borders with Middle Eastern countries, not Greece or Bulgaria.


----------



## OulaL

x-type said:


> does Turkey have a military forces on their border to EU?


They have in Northern Cyprus. De jure that's not just border to EU, that's _within_ EU.


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> It wasn't expelled, it left voluntarily in 1984 when Western Sahara became a member (of the then-OAU).


Wikipedia references tell conflicting stories:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1428796.stm


> Morocco *was forced out *of the OAU in 1984, when a majority of African states lined up behind Algeria to recognise the Polisario movement's claim to the territory of Western Sahara, which Morocco had annexed in 1975.


http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/020709/2002070920.html


> Morocco *withdrew *from the OAU in November 1984 to protest the illegal admission of the so-called Sahara republic, self-proclaimed by the Polisario separatists which claim the independence of Morocco's southern provinces. To integrate the African Union, Morocco requests that the reasons that were behind its withdrawal from the OAU be avoided by the new entity.


----------



## italystf

Skyline_ said:


> Yes, but its main concern is its borders with Middle Eastern countries, not Greece or Bulgaria.


And the main concern of EU is the border with Turkey...


----------



## Losbp

*Tuas Border between Singapore and Malaysia*




















I don't know where is the actual border line is located, but the causeway starts with this Malaysian speed limit sign. 










Sultan Abu Bakar border checkpoint

















I still wonder what font used in the Singaporean sign. Do anyone knows?

-:cheers:


----------



## MattiG

Losbp said:


>


Does that sign mean that it is not allowed to leave Singapore by a Singapore-registered car with a gas tank less than 3/4 full? Cheaper gas tax in Malaysia side, and Singapore wants to prevent the tax money from leaking to Malaysia?


----------



## Losbp

^^ Yeah, Malaysian gas prices is cheaper than in Singapore (In Malaysia .92 gas is only 0.6US$/l, while 1.6US$/l in Singapore). Before the regulation took effect many Singaporean cross the border and do Visa run just to refuel their cars in Malaysia.


----------



## xrtn2

:nuts:^^


----------



## Kuvvaci

Skyline_ said:


> This is the EU border to Asia...


actually it is EU border , but not to Asia... after the border is still continental Europe, but this is real border between Europe and Asia


----------



## alserrod

Losbp said:


> ^^ Yeah, Malaysian gas prices is cheaper than in Singapore (In Malaysia .92 gas is only 0.6US$/l, while 1.6US$/l in Singapore). Before the regulation took effect many Singaporean cross the border and do Visa run just to refuel their cars in Malaysia.


Spain-Andorra have different prices too and France-Andorra quite bigger difference. But not so much.

And they are so many queues to quit the country that, everybody who will go to Andorra will refuel its car, but nobody will go only for fuel (in Spain means 13 km go and 13 km return just to save money. In France quite more)


----------



## bogdymol

Is not that hard to alter the fuel level indicator to show fuel tank all the time full :troll:


----------



## Bzyq_74

I can see how such restrictions shall Poland at the entrance to the territory of Kaliningrad (Russia)!?  :nuts: : Lol:


----------



## MattiG

bogdymol said:


> Is not that hard to alter the fuel level indicator to show fuel tank all the time full :troll:


Such an action is subject to SGD 5000 fine and up to one year in jail in Singapore.


----------



## Skyline_

Kuvvaci said:


> actually it is EU border , but not to Asia... after the border is still continental Europe, but this is real border between Europe and Asia


Been there, done that... (Istanbul / Constantinople)

So, what do you suggest? The EU can't share borders with Iraq, which is exactly what's going to happen if Turkey joines the EU....


----------



## Palance

Skyline_ said:


> The EU can't share borders with Iraq, which is exactly what's going to happen if Turkey joines the EU.


Why not?


----------



## Skyline_

Palance said:


> Why not?


Because the EU won't be EU anymore but the Union of Europe & the Middle East?:bash:


The EU is already too large and broad as it is. With the addition of the Balkan countries it will be complete. It can't expand any further. It's falling apart anyway with the rise of nationalism in Europe. hno:hno:hno:


----------



## Palance

Skyline_ said:


> Because the EU won't be EU anymore but the Union of Europe & the Middle East?:bash:


Turkey is not in the Middle East, but still I don't see the problem with bordering Iraq (that was the statement I reacted on).


----------



## Skyline_

Palance said:


> Turkey is not in the Middle East, but still I don't see the problem with bordering Iraq (that was the statement I reacted on).


Turkey IS in the Middle East as most of the country is officially in Asia. :bash: Geographically, politically, culturally and linguistically it is an Oriental country.
Moreover, the EU has every reason NOT to wish to extend its borders to....
Syria, Iraq and Iran. Why? Well, if you think as a politician, you will see why.


----------



## alserrod

I think, politicians have enough with this EU border











and the problem are not the citizens who live beside it (and can ask for a pass to cross the fence). The problem are those citizens who travel across desert, jungle, swamp for thousands of kilometres and they are sure but a fence is the less of their problems after a long journey.

And... crossing it they can go without any other check until Finland, for instance


----------



## xrtn2

Brazil/Peru


----------



## alserrod

It could be in long mileage distances too.

Nice pic


----------



## xrtn2

^^

I didnt find any good pics between Brazil/Guyana.

Very interesting video.

Exchanging lanes.


----------



## Road_UK

alserrod said:


> I think, politicians have enough with this EU border
> 
> and the problem are not the citizens who live beside it (and can ask for a pass to cross the fence). The problem are those citizens who travel across desert, jungle, swamp for thousands of kilometres and they are sure but a fence is the less of their problems after a long journey.
> 
> And... crossing it they can go without any other check until Finland, for instance


But not Britain and Ireland.


----------



## alserrod

No, they cannot... but for anyone who has crossed half of a continent, it really doesn't matter they corner of Europe they will stay.

This is why it is called the "European fence to Africa" and as I said, neighbours are not the problem at all.


----------



## OulaL

xrtn2 said:


> ^^
> 
> I didnt find any good pics between Brazil/Guyana.
> 
> Very interesting video.
> 
> Exchanging lanes.


The sign at 0'40" ... :bash:


----------



## Verso

alserrod said:


> And... crossing it they can go without any other check until Finland, for instance


There's a document control from Ceuta to Europe.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> There's a document control from Ceuta to Europe.


Really? Why? Also between Europe and Melilla, Canaries, Azores and Madeira?


----------



## alserrod

italystf said:


> Really? Why? Also between Europe and Melilla, Canaries, Azores and Madeira?




I've had a look out to some webpages and I found the following:

- It is possible for some Moroccans to have a Visa pass to Ceuta or Melilla but only there. 
It is a question to check that those passes are used only in Ceuta or Melilla

- It is a second control to arrive European continent. Something like a random check or that stuff.


From Ceuta you can go to Europe by ferry (99,99%) or by helicopter (3 daily trips, I think). From Melilla you can go to Europe by ferry or by plane (much used)


----------



## alserrod

btw, from Canary islands there is no passport control to any Schengen country.

All boarding and arrival gates have police cabins prepared but barely used.

I read that 51% are Spanish flights (where incluiding those within the own islands) and 49% come from outside Spain but I do not remember destinations.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fronteira_da_Ameixoeira_vista_do_lado_de_Espanha.jpg


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Really? Why? Also between Europe and Melilla, Canaries, Azores and Madeira?


I posted it three days ago.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=103184965&postcount=7471


----------



## VITORIA MAN

france / spain in pertus








http://fronterasblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/pertus12.jpg


----------



## alserrod

Nice pic. I wrote a post about that corner. It is the end of N-II in Spain. 
If you continue ahead to the north, all the road and western pedestrian side is France but right pedestrian side is Spain. So if you park in the right side of the road/street (looking to the north) and you take off the car by the right side... you are crossing an international border.

But the picture is cool... two parking metres face-to-face, similar fares, same system but each of them in one country and tickets valid only for its country

(and if bank holiday in one side, guess where people will try to park...)


----------



## popcalent

Is it me or they went lost in translation?

The sign is bilingual Catalan/French but while the Catalan transcription says: "Tiquets no vàlids a la zona espanyola" (tickets not valid on the Spanish side), the French says: "Tickets non-valable qu'en territoire espagnol" (tickets not valid (anywhere) but on the Spanish side) in other words: tickets valid on the Spanish side only. So they basically say the opposite.

Now, my guess is the Catalan is wrong, since the other sign says both in Catalan and French: Ticket valid on the Spanish side only.


----------



## alserrod

yes, you're right (and as you can see, no Spanish translation available there).

the sign is inside Spain (just after the little wall is France) and they want to say that tickets taken from that parking meter are valid only in Spain.

But they used different texts for each language


----------



## Singidunum

In the text it says it's pretty common. You can see it on several photos http://varlamov.me/img/afroexp_put9/21.jpg http://varlamov.me/img/afroexp_put10/21.jpg http://varlamov.me/img/afroexp_put16/IMG_3435.JPG Apparently when you finish the paperwork someone unties that rope and you can go on your way.


----------



## OulaL

xrtn2 said:


> Yes, Brazilians doesnt need visa for France but does for French Guyane.
> 
> There is a prososal to eliminate it for people who live on border when open Oyapoque brigde.


Interesting.

I've always thought that if a person is entitled to enter France at all, s/he is then entitled to enter any region of France.

Or, if a person already is legally in France, s/he is free to move to any region therein. Of course, when speaking about Guyane, this involves flying, but I've thought these flights are concidered domestic.


----------



## Corvinus

alserrod said:


> Wow about the African pictures.


Somehow the German export plate which the Defender carries in the 4th photo disappeared in later parts of the trip :nuts:
I wonder how many bribes the white guy had to pay to get through all of these borders.


----------



## Singidunum

New border crossing Ásotthalom-Bački Vinogradi between Hungary and Serbia. It seems to be integrated.


----------



## Singidunum

Corvinus said:


> Somehow the German export plate which the Defender carries in the 4th photo disappeared in later parts of the trip :nuts:
> I wonder how many bribes the white guy had to pay to get through all of these borders.


Here is what the author has to say

_Bribery and Corruption

When I was preparing to go to Africa, everyone kept scaring me with terrible corruption, saying that I should not go without a bag of money. We even laid in the budget of the expedition the 10,000 euros for contingencies. However the reality pleasantly surprised us.

For 30 days we traveled through 17 countries and the most serious extortion was 100 euros on the border with Senegal. And that's it. No frauds, no bribes on the borders, nothing. Well, we gave little things to crooks to speed up the process of paperwork (in previous posts I red they gave Moroccan tea most often), but that shouldn't be counted, we could have proceeded without giving anything. There is no terrible extortion. In general, the situation with the traffic corruption is much better than in Russia. Again, for 10 000 km, we have not received a single fine._

http://zyalt.livejournal.com/778698.html


----------



## pobre diablo

From a few years ago BG-GR Ivailovgrad-Kiprinos. The road is in BG.









After it was open.


----------



## pobre diablo

Another border crossing Makaza - Nymphea which has been ready for a year now but Greece purposefully hasn't completed the road on their side.

BG 









GR


----------



## Singidunum

HU-SRB

Tompa-Kelebija




























Röszke-Horgoš









































































HR-SRB

Tovarnik-Šid










Bajakovo-Batrovci



















Ilok-Bačka Palanka










BIH-SRB

Rača-Sremska Rača










Loznica-Šepak



















Zvornik-Mali Zvornik










Vardište-Kotroman










MNE-SRB

Jabuka-Jabuka










MKD-SRB

Tabanovce-Preševo





































BG-SRB

Kalotina-Gradina



















RO-SRB

Stamora Moraviţa-Vatin


----------



## pobre diablo

^^

Border control entry - sounds like you have to drive inside the building.


----------



## darko06

Singidunum said:


> HU-SRB
> 
> ...
> RO-SRB
> 
> Stamora Moraviţa-Vatin


I like this Romanian border crossing, especially with EU and NATO/OTAN signs and inscriptions. :cheers:


----------



## eucitizen

Singidunum said:


> New border crossing Ásotthalom-Bački Vinogradi between Hungary and Serbia. It seems to be integrated.


It can be a good alternative to Rozke-Horgos, where there are big queues in summer. And it is closer to the motorway than Tompa-Kelebija.


----------



## Skyline_

pobre diablo said:


> Another border crossing Makaza - Nymphea which has been ready for a year now but Greece purposefully hasn't completed the road on their side.
> 
> BG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GR


This is a waste of money because next year, there will be no border check between Bulgaria and Greece, due to the activation of the Schengen Area Agreement...hno:

You see what happened in other Schengen countries... The border checks are uttely abandoned. Sometimes you don't even notice you cross into another country:nuts:

So, why bother build all those stations?


----------



## stickedy

They just put Containers there which can be easily removed. No real buildings. So that is no waste of money, just necessary for the time until 2014.


----------



## Singidunum

eucitizen said:


> It can be a good alternative to Rozke-Horgos, where there are big queues in summer. And it is closer to the motorway than Tompa-Kelebija.


Yes because this border crossing will not be open for Turkish citizens which form the major part of border queues. So it will be easier for locals to pass the border at those times.


----------



## eucitizen

Good to know, but why they don't also open the old border crossing Rozke-Horgos, so it would help even more.


----------



## cinxxx

AFAIK not all border crossings with RO are always open, or open to everybody. By car on land you only have Vatin, Srpska Crnja, Kaluderevo, Iron Gates 1 and 2.


----------



## Singidunum

True, many crossings don't work at night and some are only for Serbian and Romanian citizens. Also there is a pictogram next to the crossing name so you can see that some are railway or ferry crossings.


----------



## pobre diablo

Skyline_ said:


> This is a waste of money because next year, there will be no border check between Bulgaria and Greece, due to the activation of the Schengen Area Agreement...hno:
> 
> You see what happened in other Schengen countries... The border checks are uttely abandoned. Sometimes you don't even notice you cross into another country:nuts:
> 
> So, why bother build all those stations?


No one knows when Bulgaria will be in Schengen, so for now we do need them. Also the Greek side is only missing 2 km to complete the road.


----------



## Eulanthe

eucitizen said:


> Good to know, but why they don't also open the old border crossing Rozke-Horgos, so it would help even more.


I've never understood this - there was a proposal to open it for EU/Serbian citizens on foot, yet the proposal went nowhere. The buildings are still there - there's absolutely no reason not to allow foot traffic here. It's worth pointing out that while not specifically allowed, foot traffic is common.


----------



## Robi_damian

pobre diablo said:


> ^^
> 
> Border control entry - sounds like you have to drive inside the building.


It is in fact the rail station crossing point. No cars here. :lol:


----------



## MattiG

*Nothern Wilderness*

During the pre-Schengen era, there were some interesting border arrangements between Finland, Sweden, and Norway. The countries have been in a passport union since 1955, but crossing the border was allowed to take place in designated places only.

In the northern wilderness area, the rules were gradually relieved by allowing hikers to cross the border between certain border marks.

For example, since 1993 it was allowed to cross the Finnish-Norwegian border between in Lossu between the border marks 301 and 301A:










_Yellow border mark 301 at Lossu, photo from Finland. The yellow mark had to be bypassed at the right hand side. _

The popular footpath of 55 kilometres to the highest peak of Finland passes through Norway for two kilometres. The alternative route in Finland is difficult to walk because of boulders. Before 1983, crossing the border was a crime. Usually, the border control ignored the hikers but sometimes they delivered fines. Nowadays, the path is a part of the Arctic Trail, a 800-km hiking path passing through the three countries.










_Arctic Trail, and the crime scene_










_The crime scene. Foreground and background in Finland, the lakes and the land between them in Norway._

Norway and Finland entered an agreement to allow hikers to cross the border at the tripoint of Finland, Norway and Sweden. A similar setup was in place between Norway and Sweden, but not between Sweden and Finland. Therefore, in theory, it was allowed to go from Finland to Sweden and vice versa, but via Norway only. That rule was never enforced. The point is located in a small island of a lake accessible from Finland only.










The tripoint is accessible by foot only.


----------



## CNGL

Verso said:


> Since when is there control between Italy and the Vatican City? And at 3480 m?


AFAIK there are border controls for cars at the entrance and the exit of Vatican, but St. Peter square is under some special agreement that allow to Italian autorities to enter and thus no border checks for tourists. And obviously no border checks up the mountains. You would expect a Nepal-China border crossing atop the Everest?

I've crossed very few borders, but at least I've crossed the Spain-France border on foot.


----------



## TEBC

Brazil-paraguay


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Yes, in early 2007, but there were two Italian cops at the square and I didn't feel like potentially talking to them, so I just stayed on our side.


They couldn't have done anything against you if you did remain inside the square (even in Italian territory).
Going deeper inside Gorizia from the Nova Gorica side or into Nova Gorica from the Gorizia side (or from Gorizia to the station and taking a train to somewhere else in Slovenia) was illegal until 21.12.07 when Slovenia joined Schengen. Before, since 01.05.04, there was a specific agreemet between Italy and Slovenia to allow the free circulation of pedestrians only inside the square. For this reason the square was always patrolled by cops (technically you could went from Goizia to Nova Gorica without any phisycal obstacle).
I went there on the 01.05.04 but I couldn't cross the square because it was closed for a concert.

Back in 2004-05 I heard gossips about people, during the night, driving their cars over the mosaic in the centre of the square to smuggle goods and illegal immigrants inside the Schengen area.


----------



## alserrod

When being 20-ish I was in a summer activity in the Pyrenees and once I stayed here










for several hours.

Maybe one foot in Spain, one foot in France.




Way to approach










The name in Spanish for that mountain pass is Puerto de la Pez. I do not know its translation


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> Since when is there control between Italy and the Vatican City?


There aren't. 



> And at 3480 m?












On the left there is the place where border police stands.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> On the left there is the place where border police stands.


Was it before 2008? Now Switzerland is in Schengen and ther're only custom checks.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Was it before 2008? Now Switzerland is in Schengen and ther're only custom checks.


It was 2012.


----------



## Palance

I have only crossed the BE-NL, LU-DE and NL-DE border (and even once FR-MC) by foot (and BE-NL also by bike.) All other crossed borders only by car/bus/train/plane/boat. Maybe I'll make a list of all crossed borders


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## Road_UK

I've crossed NL - B and D on foot, also E with F and B with F.


----------



## alserrod

LOL


I've remembered I crossed the Austria-Italy border on foot before Austria was part of EU.

How?. I wanted to have my passport stamped. Going to Austria we didn't have any problem except a long queue (it was Brennero mountain pass and summer with a great deal of tourists).
Returning northern Italy, in the middle of the queue I asked my parents to get off the car, walk beside it (it was really slowly) and ask for a stamp in the custom cabin, getting on the car later.

Should the officer asked me the reason of stamp... I do not know what I would have answered... but I just asked it in English and they had no problem in stamping my passport. In fact... they didn't look to the photo or any other data although there was a lot of control because Austria was not part of EU yet.
(Entering Austria the officer asked us the nationality. Looking to the passport it was clear that we were from the EU but in the main page if you do not know the translation you do not have more information. They just made that question and let to cross it)


Obviously the real border was crossed by car. The border is in the middle of the Brennero tunnel and it is forbidden to take off the car or go walking there...


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## OulaL

Does "crossing the border by foot" include crossing the border by car, stopping, getting out of the car, walking around some time, passengers taking pictures of each other standing next to the border signs (pictures taken both ways) and so on... and then going on to the other country with the same car? With no other destination for the walking apart from the border itself?

If no, I've crossed fi-se and my-th. If yes, then also ee-lv, fi-no, it-si and no-se.


----------



## Verso

It's on foot, not by foot.


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## Road_UK

If you put some wheels under it, you can go by foot if you wish.


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## bogdymol

Speaking of crossing the border, here are my crossings:

*By car:*
Romania - Hungary*
Romania - Serbia
Hungary - Croatia
Hungary - Austria
Hungary - Slovakia
Slovakia - Czech Republic
Croatia - Slovenia
Slovenia - Austria
Austria - Italy
Austria - Germany
Poland - Czech Republic

*By bus:*
Romania - Hungary
Hungary - Austria
Austria - Italy
Bulgaria - Greece

*By ferry:*
Romania - Bulgaria

*By train:*
France - UK (via Eurotunnel)

*By plane:*
Romania - Italy
Hungary - France
Hungary - USA

*On foot:*
Italy - Vatican
Poland - Slovakia - Czech Republic (tri-point)

*By looking:*
Romania - Ukraine (been close to the border, saw Ukraine from the distance, but didn't cross)

*bonus points awared for crossing once in a police car with emergency lights and horn turned on


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## Attus

bogdymol said:


> *bonus points awared for crossing once in a police car with emergency lights and horn turned on


Have you been arrested?


----------



## bogdymol

Nope. But shortly after crossing a helicopter was above our car.

It happened few years ago. I think I have somewhere a video of it, but I have to ask first if I'm allowed to publish it on the internet.


----------



## albertocsc

bogdymol said:


> *By looking:*
> Romania - Ukraine (been close to the border, saw Ukraine from the distance, but didn't cross)


I have also done it :lol: While helping dad with work near Niculiţel, I was seeing Ukraine from the window. And even mobile phone coverage from Ukranian carriers was better than their Romanian counterparts. It was a pity that no crossings to Ukraine exist in that zone (I have written here some days ago about that).

By the way I have crossed those borders (I don't count travel by plane):

-On foot:

Entering Vatican on the Vatican museum ¿checkpoint? and exiting it via St. Peter's Square.

-By car:

Spain-Portugal, Tui-Valença do Minho crossing (N-551), in summer 1999.
 Spain-Portugal, Ayamonte-Vila Real do Santo Antonio (entering via A-49 -> A22 and coming back by car ferry), in perhaps summer 2002.
 Romania-Moldova, Albiţa-Leușeni for entering Moldova and Cahul-Oancea coming back, last summer.

I wanted to take pictures of Romania-Moldova checkpoints, but I didn't want to catch guards' attention, so I took just few pictures, and they were not good, maybe some day I will post them.


----------



## cinxxx

*By car:*
Austria to Hungary, Germany, Italy, Slovenia
Croatia to Slovenia
Czech Republic to Germany
France to Germany
Hungary to Austria, Romania
Germany to Austria, Czech Republic, France, Poland, Switzerland
Italy to Austria
Liechtenstein to Austria
Luxembourg to Germany
Poland to Slovakia
Romania to Hungary, Serbia
Serbia to Hungary, Romania
Slovakia to Hungary
Slovenia to Croatia, Italy
Switzerland to Liechtenstein

*By plane:*
Romania - Germany (and back)

*By bus:*
Romania-Hungary-Austria-Germany (and back) in 2000
Romania-Hungary-Czechoslovakia-Germany (and back) in 1992

*On foot:*
Germany-Austria-Germany at Burghausen-Ach and Passau-Haibach bei Schärding
Germany-Poland-Germany in Görlitz-Zgorjelec
Germany-Czech Republic-Germany at Tripoint Bayern-Sachsen-CZ


----------



## NordikNerd

*By train*
Sweden-Denmark
Sweden-Norway
Denmark-Germany
Germany-Austria
Germany-France
Germany-Switzerland
Germany-Belgium
Switzerland-France
Switzerland-Italy
Austria-Italy
Italy-France
France-Belgium
France-Monaco
France-Spain
France-UK
Ukraine-Belorus
Belorus-Russia



*By ferry*
Sweden-Denmark
Sweden-Finland
Sweden-Estonia
Sweden-Germany
Sweden-Poland
Denmark-Germany

*By car:*
Sweden-Norway
Finland-Russia
Estonia-Russia
Germany-Holland (with border control in 1985)
Germany-Austria (with border control in 1986)


*By plane:*
Sweden-Russia
Sweden-Latvia

*By bus:*
Germany-Holland
Poland-Ukraine
Italy-San Marino
Italy-Austria

*On foot:*
Holland-Belgium


----------



## stickedy

How looked that border from the first picture back in socialist times?


----------



## Markowice10

stickedy said:


> How looked that border from the first picture back in socialist times?


Closed for strangers, to 1990
Regular control of the border guard.
On the border Poland -Czechoslovak Socialist Republic, crossing was controlled closely, to 1990.
Was several border crossings only.


Special document of trip from 1976, only for the eastern block:


----------



## italystf

Not really an international border, but an intercontinental border within a transcontinental country:
















Near Yekaterinburg, Russia


----------



## NordikNerd

italystf said:


> Not really an international border, but an intercontinental border within a transcontinental country:


Russia is not a european country-It is a part of Eurasia. Sweden is not a part of continental Europe but in the far north it's connected to Eurasia which means that I theoretically can walk to Vietnam without having to cross the sea.

I do identify myself as a scandinavian eurasian more than a european.


----------



## alserrod

very interesting.

I found in google maps somewhere in Equador where they have a monument to the 0º paralel.

There is a 200m or so mistake indeed, but when it was built there were not enought tools to determinate the exact point of that paralel.

Can anyone find this monument in this American country?


----------



## Road_UK

Here we go again. Sweden, part of the EU, Germanic language, connecting by a bridge with Denmark , a breath of people that Hitler would have been proud of, part of Schengen and traffic between continent and Sweden has never been so high and there is NordikNerd considering himself Eurasien instead of European. 

My wife is Russian, she never came out with this bullcrap before...

I can walk in a straight line from Amsterdam to China. What does this make me? I think I'll have some fried rice and spring rolls for dinner tonight...


----------



## Skyline_

Road_UK said:


> I can walk in a straight line from Amsterdam to China. What does this make me?


That makes you......










You can also walk from Lisbon to Vladivostok!:banana:


----------



## pobre diablo

Skyline_ said:


> You can also walk from Lisbon to Vladivostok!:banana:


According to Google, it would take 112 days of non-stop walking:lol:


----------



## italystf

NordikNerd said:


> Russia is not a european country-It is a part of Eurasia. Sweden is not a part of continental Europe but in the far north it's connected to Eurasia which means that I theoretically can walk to Vietnam without having to cross the sea.
> 
> I do identify myself as a scandinavian eurasian more than a european.


Scandinavia IS part of continental Europe because IT'S in Europe an IT ISN'T an island. Also Italy and Spain\Portugal are peninsulas but still are part of continental Europe.
Sweden is geographically, culturally and politically European.
In every European countries there are many people that don't identify themselves as Europeans but this doesn't made those countries extra-Europeans.


----------



## Kaczorm

You can walk from Portugal to Germany to Vietnam without crossing a sea. Does it mean that Germany is in Eurasia? Don't think so. You can even get from Portugal to Vietnam without crossing a sea :nuts: :lol:


----------



## italystf

Kaczorm said:


> You can walk from Portugal to Germany to Vietnam without crossing a sea. Does it mean that Germany is in Eurasia? Don't think so. You can even get from Portugal to Vietnam without crossing a sea :nuts: :lol:


Off course Germany is in Eurasia, all European and Asian countries are part of Eurasia!


----------



## Kaczorm

Yes, but what NordikNerd was trying to say was that if a country is in Eurasia, than it's not in Europe :nuts:


----------



## italystf

Kaczorm said:


> Yes, but what NordikNerd was trying to say was that if a country is in Eurasia, than it's not in Europe :nuts:


This is wrong b\c if a country is in Europe or in Asia it's automatically also in Eurasia and if a country is in Eurasia, it must be either in Europe, Asia or split between the two. Since Sweden is not in Asia (not even part of it) it must be only in Europe!


----------



## Skyline_




----------



## CNGL

Heck, I would go via Kyrgyzstan if I was to walk from Portugal to Vietnam :lol:.

But it's time to get back on topic, I believe.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Yesterday I have visited the tripoint of Serbia, Romania and Hungary (it's allowed to cross it in the last weekend of May). I was also allowed to cross the temporary border crossing by a car:

[URL="[/URL]

[URL="[/URL]

[URL="[/URL]



[URL="[/URL]


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## Skyline_

One day, all these three countries will have entered the Schengen Area as EU states.


----------



## bogdymol

Alex_ZR said:


> Yesterday I have visited the tripoint of Serbia, Romania and Hungary (it's allowed to cross it in the last weekend of May).


I didn't knew about this  If I would knew about this event I would also been there yesterday


----------



## Palance

Since the borders in communist times have been mentioned: Are there any pictures of those times of Eastern European borders, especially with the Soviet-Union? I found 1 picture of the NO-SU border in Storskog, but sure there must be more of them.


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## Verso

I wonder, if we had any signs for Hungary, and where they appeared first. I know there weren't any in Maribor, I wonder if they were in Pesnica (north of Maribor).


----------



## Verso

Border between Italy and the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (SHS) in the Julian Alps:









http://www.gore-ljudje.net/novosti/81051/


----------



## hofburg

do any of these stones still exist?


----------



## Verso

^ Some of them do.


Borders of the Free Territory of Trieste:













































http://pillandia.blogspot.it/search/label/TL%20di%20Trieste


----------



## Skyline_

ScraperDude said:


> What did this tri-point look like in the 1970's?


Now that's a good question, but I can't answer it.


----------



## VmR

A small border Spain-Morocco.












ABC said:


> Luis de Vega.ABC.-
> 
> El Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera (España) que desde hace unas siete décadas permanece unido a Bades (Marruecos) por un istmo mitad español mitad marroquí celebrado el quinto centenario de la llegada de los españoles, aunque no afianzarían su soberanía hasta 1564. La playa que hace de istmo y lo mantiene unido al poblado pesquero de Bades- -antigua urbe comercial venida a casi nada- -surgió de bajo las aguas en los años treinta. Hasta entonces el Peñón era un islote, que llegó a tener más de 500 habitantes frente al medio centenar de ahora. Ellos están en la piedra y nosotros en la tierra. No nos hacemos daño explica Mohamed Ahamad, un pescador de setenta y ocho años ya retirado. *Una cuerda azul que sale desde la orilla hace las veces de sorprendente frontera entre Marruecos y España.* Me pongo a caminar para comprobar qué ocurre. Inmediatamente el militar de guardia me da el alto y me manda retroceder.No está bien que nos hayas hecho fotos me dice. Las he hecho detrás de la cuerda azul, desde Marruecos le contesto.





ABC said:


> A blue rope running from the bank acts as a striking border between Morocco and Spain. I start walking to see what happens. Immediately military guard gives me high and sends me retroceder.No is well we've done photos tells me. I made them blue rope behind, from Morocco I reply.


----------



## albertocsc

The man with the boat doesn't seem to care much about having crossed the Spanish border (neither the near girl)


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## Road_UK

Reminds me of the Spanish Guarda Civil crossing into Gibraltar (British) waters the whole time. British police and navy spend a lot of time chasing them away. There has even been a collision once between British and Spanish police boats in the heat of the argument.


----------



## alserrod

Road_UK said:


> Reminds me of the Spanish Guarda Civil crossing into Gibraltar (British) waters the whole time. British police and navy spend a lot of time chasing them away. There has even been a collision once between British and Spanish police boats in the heat of the argument.


It is a long time I don't hear news about that fact, indeed, but it is really that for a while they had several problems.

Maybe the most curious was when a Spanish police ship was going after some drug smugglers and, they didn't notice but they arrived to the centre of Gibraltar port (this is not inside the waters but in the whole centre of the port because they were too fast).

British police arrested both to smugglers and to Spanish policemen and inquired about what had happened.

I remember that policemen called their boss to apologize but their words are not easy to translate. Just... they said they didn't notice.


but in fact, it is a long time I do not hear anything about that topic. As I usually say, we will receive several news 6 months to 1 year after any new government in Gibraltar or Spain and maybe a long time with no news.


----------



## putzi__

The next picture is only a cycle path, I thought it is still a nice "boder crossing" - green "Schengen" border between Emmen, Netherlands and Haren, Germany. The road (fietspad) is called Smokkelpad, Dutch for "smugglers path" ;-)
Photo is taken from the Netherlands -> Germany


----------



## devo

If that font is Arial (99% sure it is)... I will some day dig it up and install a similar, but better version using Helvetica.


----------



## Verso

Italy to Slovenia. 









http://blog.ognjisce.si/matjaz/2010/08/01/s-kolesom-do-abnic


----------



## Verso

Looks like it's been connected:









http://jebobebo.wordpress.com/tag/ratece/


----------



## bogdymol

^^ :?


----------



## Verso

Click on the link.


----------



## tonylondon

has it been connected or what ............


----------



## Verso

tonylondon said:


> has it been connected or what ............


Yes, isn't it clear from the picture? :?


----------



## tonylondon

Sorry Verso why didnt they done it 2 times was it no one to think properly first time or I do put the blame on ITALIANS I know what they are like>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


----------



## g.spinoza

tonylondon said:


> Sorry Verso why didnt they done it 2 times was it no one to think properly first time or* I do put the blame on ITALIANS I know what they are like*>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


hno:


----------



## tonylondon

sorry I was a bit drunk when I was writting first bit what I wanted to say was why have they done it twice instead of once..... and about italians I was joking because Im half italian myself....


----------



## Verso

^^ I don't know, I've never driven there.



g.spinoza said:


> hno:


It is Italians' fault though, the path on the Slovenian side didn't change.


----------



## VmR

Haiti-Dominican Republic:tongue3:


----------



## Skyline_

Is there a fence between Haiti and Dominican Republic?


----------



## VmR

No.
Path left is Haiti, the Dominican government has complained that Haitians are beginning to deforest his territory.










International bridge Haiti-Dominican Republic.


----------



## VmR

Spanish-Moroccan border in Melilla, fenced city.







































Traffic circle opposite Nador(Morocco) port.










African immigrants attempted to scale each month.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-N...ce-into-Spanish-territory/UPI-41981369139260/


----------



## Moravian

Former Austrian border crossing Wullowitz (B310)

(view from Czech side of the border):


----------



## Verso

^^ I crossed there in 1996.


----------



## italystf

VmR said:


> Spanish-Moroccan border in Melilla, fenced city.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Traffic circle opposite Nador(Morocco) port.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> African immigrants attempted to scale each month.
> 
> http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-N...ce-into-Spanish-territory/UPI-41981369139260/


Wow, when I saw the pics I though it was the former Berlin wall or the Korean DMZ. :nuts:


----------



## alserrod

italystf said:


> Wow, when I saw the pics I though it was the former Berlin wall or the Korean DMZ. :nuts:


Maybe worst and sure not enough. This is. Someone who travels for about 3 or 4000 km inside Africa to approach there, several 6m fence should be the last problem to enter within Schengen treaty territory.

Problems do not come with Moroccan but from people of South Sahara countries who want to enter Europe and that's a fine way


----------



## Metred

Triple border: Bolivia - Brazil - Peru


----------



## alserrod

It is amazing.... Bolivia has not any bridge with Brazil nor Peru in that corner
https://maps.google.es/?ll=-10.947638,-69.569528&spn=0.011439,0.021136&t=h&z=16

There is a road that approach the trifinium border (you can see sometimes "under" the trees) but there are no bridges.

In fact, the triple border point should be a little more to the left in the picture.


----------



## Vertigo

The border bridge between Georgia and (the disputed territory of) Abkhazia. I didn't dare to take pictures of the border checkpoints. You have to walk in between the checkpoints. I heard from Georgians that most Georgian citizens cannot cross this border, except for Mingrelians (from an area that spans both a part of Abkhazia as well as a part of 'mainland' Georgia). I don't know what the situation is for Abkhazian citizens.

According to most sources, the border cannot be crossed by vehicles. I did see some cars and buses crossing the border though, I don't know what's the story behind that. 










On the Georgian side, there is no official border checkpoint, because Georgia does not recognize this border. There is a police checkpoint though.

On the Abkhazian side, there is a heavily guarded checkpoint, seemingly mostly staffed by Russian soldiers. Lots of fences, barbwires, soldiers, etcetera. Not a very friendly enviroment. The border crossing was rather smooth nontheless, taking a few minutes per person.


----------



## volodaaaa

Border crossing Preševo-Kumanovo (SRB - MKD).


----------



## Verso

^ Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia & Montenegro)?


----------



## f.ostman

Georgian checkpoint by the Abkhazian border.


----------



## volodaaaa

Verso said:


> ^ Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia & Montenegro)?


No, it was in 2008, already in Serbian times  Perhaps they forgot to update the sign.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

i dont understand why a yu sign between srb and mkd if they were two yugoslavian regions at that time ?


----------



## veteran

VITORIA MAN said:


> i dont understand why a yu sign between srb and mkd if they were two yugoslavian regions at that time ?


Yugoslavia existed (without MKD, CRO, BIH, SLO) also between 1991/1992 and 2006 as Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Savezna republika Jugoslavija) which was renamed to Serbia and Montenegro (Srbija i Crna Gora) in 2003.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

ok , tks


----------



## Rombi

Does anyone know if border crossing Vale (Georgia) - Turkgozu (Turkey) is busy one? I will be going from Georgia to Armenia, then again Georgia and Turkey because as I know Turkish - Armenian borders are closed.


----------



## alserrod

In the Spanish road thread I posted about several problems in the Pyrenees and specially in the Benasque valley.

Near there, in the Aran valley (the only Spanish valley located in the northern side of the Pyrenees) there were too many problems due to storms and rainy days.

Roads have been destroyed by rivers and today N-230 with its border with France is cut. You can approach until the last town near the border.

It is estimated to need several days more to open all the road and this international pass.


----------



## VmR

International volley.











Binational garden(Italia-Slovenia)











Gorica Square/Europe Square, pedestrian border Italia-Slovenia.




























Hotel french-suisse:



















Pics courtesy:
http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com/...y-los-pies-en-francia-el-hotel-en-dos-paises/


----------



## italystf

VmR said:


> International volley.


International volley USA - Mexico












VmR said:


> Binational garden(Italia-Slovenia)


Where's exacly (also via PM since it's a private thing).
I saw another house in Gorizia that has a part of its backyard in Slovenia but it doesn't look the same.


----------



## VmR

italystf said:


> Where's exacly (also via PM since it's a private thing).


Ulica P. Tomažiča, Gorizia, Friuli-Venecia Julia, Italia.












italystf said:


> I saw another house in Gorizia that has a part of its backyard in Slovenia but it doesn't look the same.


----------



## Verso

Ulica P. Tomažiča is of course in Slovenia, not Italy.


----------



## VmR

Exactly...in the italian side is Via Antonio Tonzig.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Border crossing Hum (BIH) - Šćepan Polje (MNE)

This narrow bridge over the Tara river divides Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

View from Montenegrin side towards BiH:



















Montenegrin side (note rockslide sign :lol: ):










Bosnian crossing:


----------



## piotr71

40 tonnes on that bridge? Looking at that pretty nice and rather old structure, it does not seem to be possible.


----------



## yohaniv

It is sturdy enough, I say. (and now Ko to tamo peva theme begins)


----------



## Alex_ZR

yohaniv said:


> It is sturdy enough, I say. (and now Ko to tamo peva theme begins)


----------



## volodaaaa

Alex_ZR said:


> Montenegrin side (note rockslide sign


That's literally monte negro with the rolling stones as bonus:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## alserrod

BTW

Does Montenegro means something in any language. In Spanish it means, with non mispelling, Black mount.


----------



## Alex_ZR

alserrod said:


> BTW
> 
> Does Montenegro means something in any language. In Spanish it means, with non mispelling, Black mount.


From Wikipedia:



> The country's name in most Western European languages reflects an adaptation of the Italian-Venetian calque monte negro (modern Italian would be monte nero), meaning "black mountain", which probably dates back to the era of Venetian hegemony over the area in the Middle Ages. Other languages, particularly nearby ones, use their own direct translation of the term "black mountain".


----------



## cinxxx

Well, in Serbo-Croat it's called Crna Gora, which means exactly black mountain 
In Romanian it's Muntenegru, which means exactly the same, munte=mountain, negru=black


----------



## alserrod

The coincidence I wanted to point is that in Spanish the current meaning is that, word to word


----------



## Verso

Btw, that bridge carries E762.


----------



## lukaszek89

cinxxx said:


> Well, in Serbo-Croat it's called* Crna Gora, which means exactly black mountain *
> In Romanian it's Muntenegru, which means exactly the same, munte=mountain, negru=black


All slavic languages use that version. In Polish it's Czarnogóra (Czarna Góra).


----------



## Skyline_

So, both Slovenia and Italy are in the Schengen zone, so there is no need for a fence between two houses or gardens....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

In Dutch it's simply Montenegro. I found it interesting that there are country names of which almost no European language uses the original form (such as Sakartvelo, Hayastan and Ellada).


----------



## volodaaaa

lukaszek89 said:


> All slavic languages use that version. In Polish it's Czarnogóra (Czarna Góra).


In Slovak language: Čierna Hora
In Czech language: Černá Hora


Schengen area also allowed this to be made:
http://imhd.zoznam.sk/ba/media/mn/00000723/Denne-linky-20130501.pdf

Hainburg an der Donau (AT) and Rajka (HU) are part of Bratislava public transport system (see the left-bottom corner of the pdf I have attached)


----------



## Skyline_

ChrisZwolle said:


> In Dutch it's simply Montenegro. I found it interesting that there are country names of which almost no European language uses the original form (such as Sakartvelo, Hayastan and Ellada).


Hellas (Greece) is simply.... Hellas in Norwegian, as well. :lol:


----------



## cinxxx

ChrisZwolle said:


> In Dutch it's simply Montenegro. I found it interesting that there are country names of which almost no European language uses the original form (such as Sakartvelo, Hayastan and Ellada).


And Shqipëria I think


----------



## cinxxx

volodaaaa said:


> Schengen area also allowed this to be made:
> http://imhd.zoznam.sk/ba/media/mn/00000723/Denne-linky-20130501.pdf
> 
> Hainburg an der Donau (AT) and Rajka (HU) are part of Bratislava public transport system (see the left-bottom corner of the pdf I have attached)


Interesting


----------



## volodaaaa

cinxxx said:


> And Shqipëria I think


What about Detschland?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Duitsland in Dutch. Pretty much the same, but other languages indeed use other names, although Scandinavian languages use Tyskland, which sounds similar.


----------



## Christophorus

^^ 
i.e.:

dutch: Duitsland
danish/norwegian/swedish: Tyskland
icelandic: Þýskaland


----------



## Christophorus

The Neum nightmare has begun...










15 km truck queue Dubrovnik bound, propably caused by croatian customs software crash... 

more here (unfortunately only in croatian but i guess google can help  )

http://www.24sata.hr/news/kaos-kod-neuma-kolone-od-15-km-a-trajekt-se-ceka-satima-321867


----------



## CNGL

I don't think there is a language other than Hungarian that calls some country _Magyarország_.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Not exactly like that, but some languages have a more similar name than "Hungary".

Mađarska, Maďarsko

On the other, hand Polish Węgry is quite weird and doesn't seem to match other Slavic languages.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

why in english its said montenegro and in french as well and not blackmontain or montagne noir ? that's spanish


----------



## volodaaaa

ChrisZwolle said:


> Not exactly like that, but some languages have a more similar name than "Hungary".
> 
> Mađarska, Maďarsko
> 
> On the other, hand Polish Węgry is quite weird and doesn't seem to match other Slavic languages.


Polish version is probably derived from russian "Венгрия" transcripted "Vengrija".

In some Slavic languages we distinguish pre-1918 Hungary (Uhorsko) and post-1918 Hungary (Maďarsko). 

*
*


----------



## stickedy

VITORIA MAN said:


> why in english its said montenegro and in french as well and not blackmontain or montagne noir ? that's spanish


Montenegro is a Venetian word, it's simply used in most other languages as well.


----------



## cinxxx

volodaaaa said:


> Polish version is probably derived from russian "Венгрия" transcripted "Vengrija".
> 
> In some Slavic languages we distinguish pre-1918 Hungary (Uhorsko) and post-1918 Hungary (Maďarsko).
> 
> *
> *


In Romanian we call it Ungaria, but the poeple are called both "unguri" and "maghiari".
The same for Germany, called Germania, but the people both "germani" and "nemţi"


----------



## Losbp

CNGL said:


> I don't think there is a language other than Hungarian that calls some country _Magyarország_.


In Turkish its *Macaristan*, C there is pronouced J so the it's look quite the same


----------



## Christophorus

Eurocroatia again 



> Trucks wait up to 30 hours at crossing with Croatia
> Source: B92, Tanjug
> 
> BELGRADE -- A 15 km-long queue of freight vehicles has formed on the Serbian side of the Batrovci border crossing with Croatia.


http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region.php?yyyy=2013&mm=07&dd=03&nav_id=86826


----------



## ChrisZwolle

What a Eurocroacy.


----------



## Road_UK

Suomi for Finland. What is it in Hungarian?


----------



## markfos

volodaaaa said:


> Polish version is probably derived from russian "Венгрия" transcripted "Vengrija".
> 
> In some Slavic languages we distinguish pre-1918 Hungary (Uhorsko) and post-1918 Hungary (Maďarsko).


Actually it was opposite, Russians took "Węgry" later from Polish, Poles used this word expressively to describe Ongur tribes which settled in Europe.

http://poradnia.pwn.pl/lista.php?id=5012


----------



## OulaL

Road_UK said:


> Suomi for Finland. What is it in Hungarian?


Finnország. -ország is a typical ending for country names, somewhat like -land. (EDIT: corrected, thanks to Attus)

Of other EU languages Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian use names of the same origin as Suomi: Soome, Somija and Suomija respectively.


----------



## Zagor666

CNGL said:


> I don't think there is a language other than Hungarian that calls some country _Magyarország_.


interesting post.in serbo-croatian it was austro-ugarska,then after the split its austrija and madjarska not ugarska :cheers:
i think its a normals house to hose fence and not a border one.maybe the neighbour has a mad dog


----------



## Palance

Skyline_ said:


> So, both Slovenia and Italy are in the Schengen zone, so there is no need for a fence between two houses or gardens....


I don't live on an international border, but the border between my garden and my neighbours' is fenced as well


----------



## putzi__

Well from the nice little town of Kübekhaza we walked on some old dirt road for 2 km, as we arrived at the tripoint there was absolutely nobody only a farmer in the far distance, still a bit nervous (about the abandoned watch tower) we managed to "visit" the other two countries ;-) Interesting how Serbia set up a welcome and a goodbye sign on, Romania only has some signage with something from the EU written on it, and Hungary with some shed hut. Definitely worth a visit for border freaks


----------



## Moravian

AT/CZ border crossing (only for pedestrian and cyclist) Hardegg/Cizov:


----------



## Zagor666

What is with the border on the road Kvilda-Mauth(Finsterau).On the map there is a road but i am not sure i can ride there cause there isnt a border sign on the map.i would realy like to drive this road with my motorcycle,on the czech side there is a sign for a pass road :cheers:


----------



## stickedy

Zagor666 said:


> What is with the border on the road Kvilda-Mauth(Finsterau).On the map there is a road but i am not sure i can ride there cause there isnt a border sign on the map.i would realy like to drive this road with my motorcycle,on the czech side there is a sign for a pass road :cheers:


You mean here: https://maps.google.de/maps?q=48.965371,13.588475&num=1&t=m&z=16

It's for pedestrians only: http://www.nationalpark-ferienland-...tandard/service-a-bis-z/grenzuebergaenge.html

But I guess it shouldn't be a problem to cross with a motorbike: http://www.nachbarnkennen.eu/region/item/buchwald-bucina-im-boehmerwald-hoeher-geht-s-beinahe-nimmer
You are surely allowed drive on both sides to the parking areas just before the border. And there's nothing blocking your way between


----------



## Zagor666

Thanks for the fast and wide answer :cheers:
i also think that will not be a problem,bicycle-motorcycle,thats almost the same :nocrook:


----------



## remyskijumper

Has anyone already been able to obtain an EU style Croatian passport stamp ?


----------



## GrahamClayton

The Sani Pass border control between Lesotho and South Africa:


----------



## Eulanthe

remyskijumper said:


> Has anyone already been able to obtain an EU style Croatian passport stamp ?


It'll be much harder now  The possibilities will be significantly less now that the intrastate and local border crossings with Slovenia don't need to have stamps. 

I'm still surprised that Croatia and Slovenia aren't planning to open further crossings - for instance - http://goo.gl/maps/fbzXV - the quickest route from A to B appears to have no border crossing facilities.


----------



## erxgli

Originally Posted by alserrod said:


> BTW
> 
> Does Montenegro means something in any language. In Spanish it means, with non mispelling, Black mount.





Alex_ZR said:


> From Wikipedia:
> Quote:
> The country's name in most Western European languages reflects an adaptation of the Italian-Venetian calque monte negro (modern Italian would be monte nero), meaning "black mountain", which probably dates back to the era of Venetian hegemony over the area in the Middle Ages. Other languages, particularly nearby ones, use their own direct translation of the term "black mountain".



In spanish Monte = Monte and negro = negro
then Montenegro=Montenegro :cheers:

Montenegro means montenegro in spanish :lol:


----------



## friedrichstrasse

There's nothing strange, italian and spanish languages sound quite similar


----------



## TurboEngine

Interestingly, in Bulgarian the name for montenegro means black forest.


----------



## Losbp

^^ Ah please, don't bring this issue back


----------



## Alex_ZR

remyskijumper said:


> Has anyone already been able to obtain an EU style Croatian passport stamp ?


I've got 4 Croatian EU stamps in my passport this weekend.


----------



## x-type

Alex_ZR said:


> I've got 4 Croatian EU stamps in my passport this weekend.


photo please


----------



## Alex_ZR

x-type said:


> photo please


One of four mentioned...


----------



## TurboEngine

^^

Those "stars" look more like bullet holes


----------



## bozenBDJ

^^
... . . or blood.


----------



## darko06

TurboEngine said:


> ^^
> 
> Those "stars" look more like bullet holes


It would be very interesting to observe some Bulgarian EU stamps, perhaps Bulgarian stars on them look like "bullet holes" too?


----------



## darko06

bozenBDJ said:


> ^^
> ... . . or blood.


I would strongly suggest that, regarding on recent history of the Western Balkans peninsula, we all try to avoid metaphors like "bullet holes" or "blood".


----------



## bozenBDJ

... or paper ink.


----------



## Skyline_




----------



## VITORIA MAN

no schengen border between spain and andorra..


----------



## VITORIA MAN

border france-andorra


----------



## alserrod

Nice pics.

In the second one, the custom signal is in Spanish and just says Stop.

The Pas de la Casa border custom doesn't exist anymore. Furthermore, the Envalira tunnel takes the cross inside France (both sides of the tunnel are in Andorra but one of them quite near to France) and it is mandatory to go via France from Pas de la Casa to any other place in Andorra (except if you go via mountain pass, 2605m or if you go via a special road for tunnel service inside Andorra)

But Andorra has customs even with France and Spain. With Spain is in the same border, the same point in the picture but enlarged.

With France is inside French territory several kilometres away. Be sure you will be stopped there to check your baggage and avoid smuggling because taxes there are terribly cheap.

In the case of Pas de la Casa, a "line" marks were Andorra ends. Until that line you will see a lot of shops and other facilities... if they are there, they will pay Andorran taxes. If they are 10 metres away, they will pay French taxes.

In the case of Spain there is not that case. The nearest shopping centre is about 1,5 km to the border.


----------



## Palance

Why does Andorra have an EU-sign at the border?


----------



## VITORIA MAN

e-f border in puigcerdá


----------



## parcdesprinces

Palance said:


> Why does Andorra have an EU-sign at the border?


This is not an "EU" sign, but an European sign/flag.

For example, the Council of Europe also uses that flag/sign (and it does since 1955, i.e. long before the creation of the EU or even the EEC). BTW, Andorra of course is a member of the Council of Europe. 











The same for the European Court of Human Rights (which has 47 members, including Andorra, just like the Council of Europe):


----------



## VITORIA MAN

gibraltar border
























1960


----------



## Verso

VITORIA MAN said:


> no schengen border between spain and andorra..


That's misleading, especially to non-Europeans. Usually when you say "xyz border", you mean its outer border. When you say "Spanish border", you mean border between Spain and a neighboring country (or the entire border of Spain), not between Catalonia and Aragon, for example. The same should apply to the Schengen Area. If you're talking about the Spanish-French border, that's an inner Schengen border. If you're talking about the Spanish-Andorran border, that's an outer Schengen border. So the border between Spain and Andorra definitely is the border of the Schengen Area.


----------



## Palance

parcdesprinces said:


> This is not an "EU" sign, but an European sign/flag.


Agreed. Let's put it an other way: this is the first non1-EU-state which uses the sign of the council of Europe. I don't know however what the agreements say about the usage of such signs at the borders.


----------



## alserrod

VITORIA MAN said:


>



Looking at the last picture...


The house with a red corner is in Andorra, the brigde in the right ahead is Andorran, the houses in the left of that road before the brigde is France. Everything before the house with de red corner is France.

Anything built before that house will pay taxes in France.

Anything built after there will pay taxes in Andorra.


It seems easy to cross but it is really a non-Schengen, non-EU, non-XXX border (to go there from France you have crossed a custom control but crossing from Spain, Spanish police never asked me passport in several times and only onces in Andorra).

In the first picture you can see the former border looking from the house with a red corner.



By the way... take a look to "Os de Civis". It is a 100 people Spanish village that can be arrived only via Andorra.

Andorran government has a treaty to give free way to citizens living there and to emergency vehicles. But in fact they just use the Andorran services because it is much faster. The 100 people will go to Andorran hospitals, schools and so on.
Police and army aren't allowed to cross Andorra to arrive there. So we can call "the village with no law". Last time the police went there was to investigate a natural death and... had to arrive by helicopter without entering into Andorra.

They pay taxes about everyhing done there to the Spanish government (citizen taxes, VAT, society taxes, etc...) but they buy goods in Andorra and arrive there tax free (it is much cheaper to avoid controling those goods, considering the size of the village than having a custom). They can import as much as they want tax free..... but using only in the village. If they climb mountains with their goods it is smuggling. If they want to arrive to the rest of Spain with their goods they will have to cross the main Spain-Andorra border (and be sure that, even there is no passport control indeed, almost 100% of the cars are stopped and asked to check a random baggage to see if you are smuggling)



Take a look to the point where the border is...... because it could be really the only Schengen border with traffic and no customs, no checks and... no signals. The only way to know you have crossed the country is a signal of a natural park that has set the Catalonian government.


----------



## alserrod

VITORIA MAN said:


> e-f border in puigcerdá




Anyone who is interested in this enclave can have a look in several pages before. Even about a roundabout there is in the middle.


----------



## parcdesprinces

Palance said:


> this is the first non1-EU-state which uses the sign of the council of Europe.


Indeed, AFAIK it is. 
I don't know why, but that's maybe because Andorra has a special status (i.e. it's 50% French, 50% Catalan... but 100% independent) :dunno:.

Speaking of which, the Franco-Andorran border is not "official" since there has never been any treaty establishing precisely this border. BTW, the border was modified in 2001, in order to allow Andorra to build a bridge & a tunnel in the Pas de la Case (with a bilateral treaty this time, regarding this small territory exchange).


----------



## parcdesprinces

alserrod said:


> to go there from France you have crossed a custom control


I've been there numerous times, and I have never ever seen any customs control before entering Andorra.... While the opposite (from Andorra back to France) is not really the same, because of the limited quantities of goods (cigarettes and alcohol more precisely) you're allowed to import to France from Andorra. But there isn't customs office because since a while French customs controls on the French soil are done by what we call the "Douane volante" (customs mobile units), and they are allowed to control vehicles, goods, people's identity etc, everywhere inside the French territory + Monaco.


----------



## Verso

Palance said:


> Agreed. Let's put it an other way: this is the first non1-EU-state which uses the sign of the council of Europe. I don't know however what the agreements say about the usage of such signs at the borders.


Malta used EU-style license plates even before it joined EU, and Croatia had EU flags hanging from some buildings in Zagreb well before it joined EU.


----------



## parcdesprinces

Here is another interesting border:



Franco-Dutch border in Saint-Martin.








© Xavier Maillard


----------



## Godius

The interesting thing about that border is that the French part is an outermost region of the EU and therefore carrying the French and EU-jack. The Dutch part of the isle has an OCT-status, it is a constituent country of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, and therefore carrying its own flag + the flag of the Kingdom of the Netherlands.


----------



## alserrod

parcdesprinces said:


> Indeed, AFAIK it is.
> I don't know why, but that's maybe because Andorra has a special status (i.e. it's 50% French, 50% Catalan... but 100% independent) :dunno:.
> 
> Speaking of which, the Franco-Andorran border is not "official" since there has never been any treaty establishing precisely this border. BTW, the border was modified in 2001, in order to allow Andorra to build a bridge & a tunnel in the Pas de la Case (with a bilateral treaty this time, regarding this small territory exchange).


Not 50% French and Catalan but 50% French and Spanish ·(Catalonia is not a state)

But look at the state heads!

Btw, it is the oldest state in Europe


----------



## volodaaaa

During cold war, Czechoslovakia built the border barricades to avoid people running out of the country. A road for border guard became a part of it. Austria built its road for border guard too.

Soon after the fall of iron curtain the border fence were physically tore down and an old railway connection between Bratislava and Vienna has been re-established. Thus two new level crossings were made on one place - one for former Austrian border guard road and another for former Czechoslovakian border guard road running beside. 

So there are two different level crossings next to each other:



























Photos are from vlaky.net portal


----------



## Verso

Godius said:


> The interesting thing about that border is that the French part is an outermost region of the EU and therefore carrying the French and EU-jack. The Dutch part of the isle has an OCT-status, it is a constituent country of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, and therefore carrying its own flag + the flag of the Kingdom of the Netherlands.


Yes, it's a border between the EU and a territory of an EU member state (Netherlands). The only other such example is the border between Cyprus (EU) and Akrotiri & Dhekelia (UK, but not EU).


----------



## Road_UK

Skyline_ said:


> Not at all. You don't really understand how this works. Switzerland is in Schengen too. Because you can visit Switzerland without any obstacle, it doesn't mean you can stay there forever or work etc. Moreover, it doesn't mean the police won't pull you over, if they want to check your passport or ID card. hno:
> 
> Hell, the UK and Ireland are both outside the Schengen Area but they have signed a bilateral "Schengen-style" agreement and crossing from the republic of Ireland to Northern Ireland is utterly free of checks. Is that bad too? :bash:


It is not always free of checks, and often every single passenger gets checked by police at the port of Holyhead. They should do it more often. Open borders is nice, but I find security far more important. At least the French and Germans understand this. Also, in between Schengen countries not everything can be moved freely. Too many cigarettes, alcohol and fuel in cans still has to be declared.


----------



## Road_UK

Skyline_ said:


> So you fly from England to the Old Continent every day or something?


I drive around in a van doing European express deliveries for a company in the UK. I've moved out of the UK 4 years ago and moved to Austria, but still do it freelance in my own van for the same UK company as in this job it doesn't matter where you live. Been doing this for 10 years now.


----------



## Road_UK

TurboEngine said:


> They could do that but most of the time they don't. As I said, they glance over it which means exactly that and there is no swiping, checking in the database, etc.


The French don't, the Germans and Dutch do. Always.


----------



## Skyline_

Road_UK said:


> It is not always free of checks, and often every single passenger gets checked by police at the port of Holyhead. They should do it more often. Open borders is nice, but I find security far more important. At least the French and Germans understand this. Also, in between Schengen countries not everything can be moved freely. Too many cigarettes, alcohol and fuel in cans still has to be declared.



Basically that's because the Single Market does not exist yet. If I import something from England for example, the custom officer will charge me something like 2% as an additional tax. 

Regarding checks, Are you implying that there are police checks on the roads that connect Northern Ireland to the Republic, at the border lines?


----------



## Road_UK

Skyline_ said:


> Basically that's because the Single Market does not exist yet. If I import something from England for example, the custom officer will charge me something like 2% as an additional tax.
> 
> Regarding checks, Are you implying that there are police checks on the roads that connect Northern Ireland to the Republic, at the border lines?


I don't know, I've always moved freely on that border. But they do between the Republic and the UK mainland at times. Even at the Dublin and Dun Laoghaire ports there are Irish customs officers present, although I never got checked by them. Only by the Welsh police quite often.

Also, these excise limits I've mentioned also applies on the mainland of Europe within Schengen. If you decide to fill your car with thousands of cigarettes from Luxembourg and you come across a French stop and search from the Douanes the French will have ya. And they will have you good! French customs are likely to stop you anywhere in France, not just at borders. Toll plazas are good places to pull you out...


----------



## Verso

Road_UK said:


> It seems particularly Bulgarians have found a way to scam the Dutch welfare system...


Don't you always whine about gypsy generalizations?



OulaL said:


> The sign at 1'05" is written in Latin, Chinese and Cyrillic script ... but not in Urdu script, the only one official in Pakistan?


Not to mention "Al*am* Ata". :lol:


----------



## Road_UK

Verso said:


> Don't you always whine about gypsy generalizations?


It's a hot news item in Holland. And a Dutch news crew actually went to Bulgaria to a village where the locals were boasting how they did these runs to Holland to get money of the government.


----------



## timeandspace

yes. racism and prejudices are a form of public opinion that is quite popular in NL, suprisingly. unfortunatelly they are resilient toxic ideas and fed by groups with short-term interests and haters. 

volkskrant had a police report that was telling: from people involved/caught in human trafficking in 2012 over a thousand were dutch citizens. next in line were bulgarians at 40 indivuals. hmmmm

isolationism is not the solution. europe and the world needs more mobility not this nation-state BS


----------



## Verso

Road_UK said:


> It's a hot news item in Holland. And a Dutch news crew actually went to Bulgaria to a village where the locals were boasting how they did these runs to Holland to get money of the government.


Many of those Bulgarians are probably gypsies (but I'm not sure if majority).


----------



## Skyline_

First there were cavemen, then villages, then city-states, then kingdoms, then empires, then nation states, then Unions of States (European Union, African Union, South American Union....) then what? Whatever comes next, it WILL come. History leaves no doubts about that. Evolution is unstoppable, in all regards: Natural, political, cultural, etc. 

The only question is when and how countries (states) will be like.


----------



## cinxxx

Verso said:


> Don't you always whine about gypsy generalizations?


I wanted to ask the same, but it's useless. People like him blame others for generalization, but use it too, but twist the meaning so it suits them and then it should be alright. 

I guess there should only be an elite Schengen, with D, NL, F, DK, B, L, maybe A, and all problems there will be solved, and they will live happy without those nasty EEs ruining their wonderful life.
:nuts:


----------



## Road_UK

cinxxx said:


> I wanted to ask the same, but it's useless. People like him blame others for generalization, but use it too, but twist the meaning so it suits them and then it should be alright.
> 
> I guess there should only be an elite Schengen, with D, NL, F, DK, B, L, maybe A, and all problems there will be solved, and they will live happy without those nasty EEs ruining their wonderful life.
> :nuts:


You forgot Finland Sweden , Spain and Portugal.


----------



## cinxxx

Finland, Sweden, Norway can be added too.

Spain and Portugal are corrupt, bankrupt with high unemployment.
Those Latins are not suited to healthy western mentality, the same goes for Italy.

Then you can all live happy lives and leave us EE criminals in peace.
Or wait, you only like those EEs who do work you don't like doing anymore?


----------



## OulaL

Road_UK said:


> You forgot Finland Sweden , Spain and Portugal.


Don't worry about us... Finland, Sweden and Norway could screw Schengen and do very well with our own union, just with the three. 

Whenever going to or coming from any other country, we must stop anyway (be it Russia, a ferry terminal, or Øresund toll booth). Border checks wouldn't make it much worse.


----------



## Road_UK

cinxxx said:


> Finland, Sweden, Norway can be added too.
> 
> Spain and Portugal are corrupt, bankrupt with high unemployment.
> Those Latins are not suited to healthy western mentality, the same goes for Italy.
> 
> Then you can all live happy lives and leave us EE criminals in peace.
> Or wait, you only like those EEs who do work you don't like doing anymore?


That'd be handy. That's where the Pole's come in. I'm all for integration, and I do hope that Bulgaria and Romania get everything in order which will see them fit to join Schengen. Poland managed, and I can see them becoming a European powerhouse once the crisis is over. 

Anyway, you're like an ex girlfriend of mine. She always used to say that she'll ignore me, but she never did...


----------



## Road_UK

OulaL said:


> Don't worry about us... Finland, Sweden and Norway could screw Schengen and do very well with our own union, just with the three.
> 
> Whenever going to or coming from any other country, we must stop anyway (be it Russia, a ferry terminal, or Øresund toll booth). Border checks wouldn't make it much worse.


I'm not worried about you. I happen to love these countries. I want to get in...


----------



## OulaL

Road_UK said:


> I'm not worried about you. I happen to love these countries. I want to get in...


Well, that was pretty easy before Schengen, provided your documents were ok - and there wasn't even a bridge. I don't mean it should be any harder by now...


----------



## Road_UK

By the way, there has been a lot of customs checks at Helsingborg lately. But unlike the French and Germans they always leave me alone.


----------



## timeandspace

Road_UK said:


> I'm all for integration, and I do hope that Bulgaria and Romania get everything in order which will see them fit to join Schengen. .


they are already prepared. multiple reports have indicated this as "technically fully prepared"

due to poltical reasons ( thus subjective/rehtoeric/perceptions/societal/cutlural/surface reasons) in the home countries of western european states, the MCV ( mechanism for co-operations and verfication) that is part of the EU accession is now used as a benchmark to "hold accountable" eastern states before they are royally allowed to join the noble and superior schengen states. in fact it is the lack of politcal capital of the politicians and the bigoted views of the populace that hinders this expansion. the zeitgeist. 

as such, just as media feeds the fears and hates of its readers, polticians and eurocrats act on the subjective abstract perceptions which they need to get elected.

of course there are structural problems with romania and bulgaria, poverty and criminality and roma integration being the main ones. but these are not directly schengen related.the issue only serves to identify the entrenched views that rule the politics in member states because it gives a chance for voices to oppose soemthing that in fact is already accomplished (freedom of movement). 

in fact i ahve met many people that are ignorant about wehter romania is in the EU, what it entails, and what schengen could change. however they are still adamant about having an opinion even if it is an uninformed one. blame it on the gut feeling.


----------



## OulaL

Road_UK said:


> By the way, there has been a lot of customs checks at Helsingborg lately. But unlike the French and Germans they always leave me alone.


We (me and my wife) were stopped right after the bridge toll (going to Sweden) and had our car inspected a couple of weeks ago. We were just on a holiday with a person car.

I usually speak Swedish in Sweden but the officer's dialect was so difficult (close to Danish) that we changed into English...


----------



## Palance

Road_UK said:


> It's a hot news item in Holland. And a Dutch news crew actually went to Bulgaria to a village where the locals were boasting how they did these runs to Holland to get money of the government.


That means that those Bulgarians (who legally did nothing wrong BTW) looked very good to the Dutch people how to collect as much money as possible. Strange enough, the latter seems to be forgotten quickly in those discussions.


----------



## Laurentzius

timeandspace said:


> due to poltical reasons ( thus subjective/rehtoeric/perceptions/societal/cutlural/surface reasons) in the home countries of western european states, the MCV ( mechanism for co-operations and verfication) that is part of the EU accession is now used as a benchmark to "hold accountable" eastern states before they are royally allowed to join the noble and superior schengen states. in fact it is the lack of politcal capital of the politicians and the bigoted views of the populace that hinders this expansion. the zeitgeist.


Don't forget they are also afraid that the illegal immigrants from Greece will have a free land route to Western Europe if Bulgaria and Romania join the Schengen Area. Basically, they want the 2 countries to act as additional layers of protection for them. All that border security is paid by Bg&Ro, while in the meantime they also suffer economic loses because the international traffic in/out of their countries is hindered. This is bullshit. If I were in charge of the 2 countries, I would spend the money on something more useful and let all the illegals go through. It's not like they're going to stay in Bulgaria or Romania anyway.


----------



## timeandspace

u can not refer to the migrants as" illegals" technically and ethically afaik. yes they should go through.


----------



## TurboEngine

Laurentzius said:


> Don't forget they are also afraid that the illegal immigrants from Greece will have a free land route to Western Europe if Bulgaria and Romania join the Schengen Area. Basically, they want the 2 countries to act as additional layers of protection for them. All that border security is paid by Bg&Ro, while in the meantime they also suffer economic loses because the international traffic in/out of their countries is hindered. This is bullshit. If I were in charge of the 2 countries, I would spend the money on something more useful and let all the illegals go through. It's not like they're going to stay in Bulgaria or Romania anyway.


The two countries should at least implement a mini-Schengen between each other.


----------



## Verso

Laurentzius said:


> Don't forget they are also afraid that the illegal immigrants from Greece will have a free land route to Western Europe if Bulgaria and Romania join the Schengen Area. Basically, they want the 2 countries to act as additional layers of protection for them. All that border security is paid by Bg&Ro, while in the meantime they also suffer economic loses because the international traffic in/out of their countries is hindered. This is bullshit. If I were in charge of the 2 countries, I would spend the money on something more useful and let all the illegals go through. It's not like they're going to stay in Bulgaria or Romania anyway.


Then they would be stopped by the Hungarian police and you'd have plenty of them in Romania.


----------



## timeandspace

migrants are caught around the borders but that can unfortunately continue post-schengen also. there is lots of romaian hungarian common policing already underway.


----------



## Laurentzius

timeandspace said:


> u can not refer to the migrants as "illegals" technically and ethically afaik. yes they should go through.


How about "undocumented immigrants" then? Is it euphemistic enough? 



TurboEngine said:


> The two countries should at least implement a mini-Schengen between each other.


I've been saying the same for few years already. That's the first measure I would take.



Verso said:


> Then they would be stopped by the Hungarian police and you'd have plenty of them in Romania.


I count on their ingenuity to get through the Ro-Hu border. The Hungarian border guard is pretty soft on our segment.


----------



## Verso

Then they would probably kick Hungary out of Schengen and I don't think they want that.


----------



## timeandspace

maybe he is judging on the passengers flux. remember people commute and live across borders in the battonya region for example. yet every truck gets scanned and the migrants are cuffed, stay assured. u can enquire at the frontier police arad faciliities, there are transit and detention centers.


----------



## Road_UK

OulaL said:


> We (me and my wife) were stopped right after the bridge toll (going to Sweden) and had our car inspected a couple of weeks ago. We were just on a holiday with a person car.
> 
> I usually speak Swedish in Sweden but the officer's dialect was so difficult (close to Danish) that we changed into English...


Yes, people told me that the Danish language has far more in common with Stockholm and onwards than the Helsingborg and Malmö area, even though it borders with Denmark.


----------



## parcdesprinces

Alex_ZR said:


> I wouldn't call Vichy France "Free France"...


Indeed.



VITORIA MAN said:


> i translated it from the french


It's "Free Zone", not "Free France", dear . 
What we call "Free France" was the French resistance and anti-Vichy/anti-Nazi organization founded by de Gaulle in June 1940 in London and its armed forces (aka the Free French Forces) based outside the French metropolitan territory, such as in UK for example, but also in the French colonial empire.


----------



## Zagor666

parcdesprinces said:


> Indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> It's "Free Zone", not "Free France", dear .
> What we call "Free France" was the French resistance and anti-Vichy/anti-Nazi organization founded by de Gaulle in June 1940 in London and its armed forces (aka the Free French Forces) based outside the French metropolitan territory, such as in UK for example, but also in the French colonial empire.


Yeah,here is a map oh the borders of the only free territory in 1941


----------



## Road_UK

Palance said:


> That means that those Bulgarians (who legally did nothing wrong BTW) looked very good to the Dutch people how to collect as much money as possible. Strange enough, the latter seems to be forgotten quickly in those discussions.


As impressed as the Dutch may have been, I don't think any of them approved on how they simply took taxpayers money.


----------



## Attus

Verso said:


> Many of those Bulgarians are probably gypsies (but I'm not sure if majority).


A VAST majority. And it's true about Romanians, too.


----------



## Road_UK

Here it doesn't make a difference. In Austrian, UK and Dutch newspapers you often read about Romanians committing crimes. You never read whether they're gypsies or not, it's the nationality what counts.


----------



## volodaaaa

parcdesprinces said:


> Indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> It's "Free Zone", not "Free France", dear .
> What we call "Free France" was the French resistance and anti-Vichy/anti-Nazi organization founded by de Gaulle in June 1940 in London and its armed forces (aka the Free French Forces) based outside the French metropolitan territory, such as in UK for example, but also in the French colonial empire.


Well in my honest opinion, France was "free" same way that time, as North Korea is currently "democratic".:lol:


----------



## Attus

I, too, think that the main reason for RO and BG are not allowed to join the Schengen treaty, is Greece. GR-TR border is quite easy to be crossed illegally, and RO and BG joining Schengen, these illegal immigrants could have a free way to dozens of European countries. 
The best way would be RO and BG joining the treaty but GR being excluded - however it is not applicable by political reasons.


----------



## Road_UK

Attus said:


> A VAST majority. And it's true about Romanians, too.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-migrants-commit-500-crimes-a-week-in-UK.html

.. http://m.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/feb/12/ukip-candidate-immigration-romanian-crime


----------



## OulaL

Road_UK said:


> Yes, people told me that the Danish language has far more in common with Stockholm and onwards than the Helsingborg and Malmö area, even though it borders with Denmark.


Oh, I could have claimed just the opposite.

Anyway, Malmö and Helsingborg are the only places in which I've had problems with Swedish language since graduating from high school. Never in Stockholm.

When in Norway, I speak something like mixed Swedish-Norwegian. This means that even if I don't remember all words or grammatical things, I just use the Swedish ones instead and still get understood pretty well.

When in Denmark, I speak English. I understand written Danish but not spoken, and I don't even give a try to speak myself.


----------



## cinxxx

What about UK criminal numbers?
What about non-european criminals?
What about African, Arab, radical muslims, drug dealers, etc.? Or have they already got UK citizenship, so no problems there?

4000 Romanians convicted. But how many Romanians work hard and pay taxes in the UK and help the economy? Of course, honest people are never noticed...


----------



## Road_UK

I agree. The Americans always wonder who they have to speak to if they want to phone Europe. Self interest, lack of cooperation, lack of democracy and bureaucracy are a few of the main reasons that a fully united Europe will never work.


----------



## Skyline_

volodaaaa said:


> Are Greeks such poor, so they are unable to afford an air ticket and travel to western europe directly? :nuts:


Maybe, who knows? :cheers::nuts:


----------



## Skyline_

Road_UK said:


> The Greeks are not the problem. They're in the EU and Schengen anyway.


Good to hear that!:banana:


----------



## Laurentzius

Road_UK said:


> I'm half English/Dutch, grew up in both countries, travel through the whole of Europe for a living (including East) - cross these borders everyday, now live in Austria, Tirol, right tucked in between Germany and Italy, I speak English, Dutch German and French, married to a Russian girl and love all countries I go to.


I don't care who or what you are. Enjoy your border free travels and stop making sweeping generalizations about Eastern Europeans. Is that too much to ask?



volodaaaa said:


> Are Greeks such poor, so they are unable to afford an air ticket and travel to western europe directly? :nuts:


WTF dude? Obviously, I wasn't talking about Greek citizens. I was talking about the undocumented immigrants trapped inside Greece but who have as final destination Western Europe. There are huge numbers of them, because of Greece's geographical position and its very long and difficult to secure maritime borders. Those immigrants cannot take a plane or ferry from Greece to a WE country because they don't have documents, but when Bulgaria and Romania will join the Schengen Area they'll be able to reach Western Europe on land without facing any additional controls.


----------



## Road_UK

Laurentzius said:


> I don't care who or what you are. Enjoy your border free travels and stop making sweeping generalizations about Eastern Europeans. Is that too much to ask?
> 
> WTF dude? Obviously, I wasn't talking about Greek citizens. I was talking about the undocumented immigrants trapped inside Greece but who have as final destination Western Europe. There are huge numbers of them, because of Greece's geographical position and its very long and difficult to secure maritime borders. Those immigrants cannot take a plane or ferry from Greece to a WE country because they don't have documents, but when Bulgaria and Romania will join the Schengen Area they'll be able to reach Western Europe on land without facing any additional controls.


First of all you are not in a position in what I can or can't say, secondly you obviously don't know your arse from your elbow, seeing the crap you come out with, and finally... Looking at your posts, I get the impression that you enjoy crossing swords with Britons, claiming that the EU is none of your business. Why is that?

As for the last bit of your post... Is that a good thing? If Romania were to join Schengen, it will be responsible for securing the outer borders on behalf of the whole of Europe.


----------



## TurboEngine

Road_UK said:


> First of all you are not in a position in what I can or can't say, secondly you obviously don't know your arse from your elbow, seeing the crap you come out with, and finally... Looking at your posts, I get the impression that you enjoy crossing swords with Britons, claiming that the EU is none of your business. Why is that?
> 
> As of the last bit of your post... Is that a good thing? If Romania were to join Schengen, it will be responsible for securing the outer borders on behalf of the whole of Europe.


It is still responsible now for securing outer borders. icard:


----------



## Road_UK

TurboEngine said:


> It is still responsible now for securing outer borders. icard:


Yes and once it joins Schengen, it will have a duty to stop people who have already gone that far coming to western Europe.


----------



## timeandspace

this already happens, not that i agree with the migrant phobia.


----------



## parcdesprinces

volodaaaa said:


> Well in my honest opinion, France was "free" same way that time, as North Korea is currently "democratic".:lol:


Says the guy from (where exactly)? Ah, yes, from Bratislawhatever. ohno



"lol"


PS: Please forgive me, I'm a bit (waay too much) defensive on such issues. :angel:


----------



## Verso

Geez... calm down, people.


----------



## Laurentzius

Road_UK said:


> Why is that?


I only do that from time to time, when I come across Britons displaying the 'little englander' syndrome.



Road_UK said:


> As for the last bit of your post... Is that a good thing? If Romania were to join Schengen, it will be responsible for securing the outer borders on behalf of the whole of Europe.


I'm not saying it's a good thing, I was merely explaining one of real reasons why the Schengen entry for Bulgaria and Romania was postponed.


----------



## Cosmin

I see you're derailing threads elsewhere too, not just on DLM.


----------



## Skyline_

I am going to Bulgaria next week. Because the Schengen agreement is not activated yet, I will probably waste a few minutes at the borders (I 'll be with a group of 5 friends in one car). IF I had to cross those borders every day, I would waste 12-18 hours in one year!


----------



## Road_UK

Laurentzius said:


> I only do that from time to time, when I come across Britons displaying the 'little englander' syndrome.
> 
> I'm not saying it's a good thing, I was merely explaining one of real reasons why the Schengen entry for Bulgaria and Romania was postponed.


Tell me the truth. You're either a British expat or you've lived in the UK for a very long time, haven't you?


----------



## Laurentzius

Road_UK said:


> Tell me the truth. You're either a British expat or you've lived in the UK for a very long time, haven't you?


LOL! I'm neither a British expat, nor have I lived in the UK for a very long time. Either way, I'm going to stop here, because Cosmin is back and apparently he's watching me. :sly:


----------



## VITORIA MAN

--


----------



## JackFrost

romania and bulgaria should be allowed to join schengen as fast as possible. no question about that. if we started this whole eu/schengen-thing together, we should bring it to the end finally. by the way, how long is that damn border with turkey to BG and GR? 200 kilometers? it should be possible in 2013 to watch that border properly. 

on the other hand, i would make it nearly impossible for imigrants from *any* third-world country to settle in europe.


----------



## g.spinoza

May I interject? 

This thread has become unreadable.


----------



## JackFrost

i will never understand why changing opinions offend some people. anyway, somebody please post some pictures from a booth and a barrier so everybody is happy again...


----------



## g.spinoza

Jack_Frost said:


> i will never understand why changing opinions offend some people. anyway, somebody please post some pictures from a booth and a barrier so everybody is happy again...


Maybe because this thread is called "international border crossings", and not "what do you think about gypsies and stuff".


----------



## JackFrost

quite stiff and boring if you ask me. i like to read peoples opinions. but okay, whatever...


----------



## g.spinoza

Jack_Frost said:


> quite stiff and boring if you ask me. i like to read peoples opinions. but okay, whatever...


You can open a thread dedicated to people's opinions on Schengen and stuff and leave this one to people like me who just don't care and want to see border crossings.


----------



## cinxxx

There is/was a thread about Schengen, I think it was closed.
But you are right, this thread should be cleaned up.

And everything started from this... and then Road_UK came...



italystf said:


> Are they waiting RO and BG to join Schengen to open it without build border cabins?





TurboEngine said:


> The newly constructed and not yet functional crossing between BG and RO at Kaynardzha - Lipnitsa :nuts: The border is clearly marked with branches and you can't miss the different widths of the road :lol:


----------



## Road_UK

cinxxx said:


> There is/was a thread about Schengen, I think it was closed.
> But you are right, this thread should be cleaned up.
> 
> And everything started from this... and then Road_UK came...


What's that supposed to mean? It's nice to have a discussion again. It's attracting new people. This part of ssc is dying out otherwise...


----------



## Road_UK

Laurentzius said:


> LOL! I'm neither a British expat, nor have I lived in the UK for a very long time. Either way, I'm going to stop here, because Cosmin is back and apparently he's watching me. :sly:


Ok, bye. See you around somewhere else. They've closed the other EU thread unfortunately...


----------



## Road_UK

Verso said:


> Road_UK, I really love you. Is there a chance we can spend the night together?


You shouldn't be changing someone else's quotes...


----------



## TurboEngine

Jack_Frost said:


> romania and bulgaria should be allowed to join schengen as fast as possible. no question about that. if we started this whole eu/schengen-thing together, we should bring it to the end finally. by the way, how long is that damn border with turkey to BG and GR? 200 kilometers? it should be possible in 2013 to watch that border properly.
> 
> on the other hand, i would make it nearly impossible for imigrants from any third-world country to settle in europe.


The BG-TR is not the problem. It's a very well guarded border and you can't even get close to it without getting intercepted. The issue is political.

Edit: Last night 32 people we caught illegally trying to cross from Turkey.


----------



## Verso

Road_UK said:


> You shouldn't be changing someone else's quotes...


What's your problem? I never wrote that.


----------



## Road_UK

I know. I did. You manipulated a quote of mine yesterday.


----------



## Verso

Road_UK said:


> I know. I did. You manipulated a quote of mine yesterday.


Oh stop whining already. I just changed a word, not your entire post.


Back to border crossings:









http://thechronicleherald.ca/canada/102715-new-duty-free-rules-worry-canadian-businesses


----------



## Eulanthe

Just an observation :

Hungary's border crossings with Romania look to be all but abandoned - this one near Gyula is a perfect example - http://goo.gl/maps/1mazq

You can look around the Hungarian border crossing, and it seems that not very much is happening there at all. The dress of the guard in jeans says it all - that no-one is taking the border crossings seriously at all. The whole area looks to be somewhat abandoned - empty (not even equipped at all) booths on exit from Hungary, unmaintained greenery (it was the same at the crossing near Cenad from what I remember) and so on.

This one is particularly curious - http://goo.gl/maps/Ost3v - does anyone know the story here?


----------



## TurboEngine

^^

It's a relaxed atmosphere as it should be. Long gone are the days of soldiers with Kalashnikofs guarding those crossings.


----------



## timeandspace

Eulanthe said:


> Just an observation :
> 
> Hungary's border crossings with Romania look to be all but abandoned - this one near Gyula is a perfect example - http://goo.gl/maps/1mazq
> 
> You can look around the Hungarian border crossing, and it seems that not very much is happening there at all. The dress of the guard in jeans says it all - that no-one is taking the border crossings seriously at all. The whole area looks to be somewhat abandoned - empty (not even equipped at all) booths on exit from Hungary, unmaintained greenery (it was the same at the crossing near Cenad from what I remember) and so on.
> 
> This one is particularly curious - http://goo.gl/maps/Ost3v - does anyone know the story here?



Controls (border police and customs)are carried out jointly by mixed transnational teams together on one/either side of the border to speed up the flows and solidify co-operation practices. They do take it seriously and stamp the passports of non EU passport holders and customs personnel is on hand. Schengen has been pending for years so physical upkeep is not invested in. 

Furthermore all efforts in transnational cooperation have been for years towards post-schengen common policing, checks and regionalization. Romania has purchased lots of EADS technology and set up the schengen standard at its entry points, passing inspections.

While passenger crossing points are crowded but fluid or slow, depending on size and season, goods transports can spend days crossing the border.


----------



## Tammy661

where do all those vehicles dissappear after passing under the roof?


----------



## Road_UK

hey lads said:


> Finland-Russia border is becoming the most trafficed in the world if it keeps growing like it has.
> 
> Helsinki-St. Petersburg is the coolest thing out there bar to none.


There's more and more commercial traffic on that border, and for citizens from St Petersburg it's very easy to obtain a Schengen visa from the Finnish consulate. But with visa requirements still exceptionally high between the EU and Russia, I can't see becoming it one of the busiest border crossings in the world anytime soon...


----------



## keokiracer

What actually _is_ the busiest border crossing?


----------



## bozenBDJ

^^ the Tijuana-San Diego border crossing? :?:?:?


----------



## Road_UK

Yup


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This one in Shenzhen is probably the largest in terms of processing capacity.


----------



## italystf

Actually it isn't an international border crossing because Hong Kong isn't recognized as indipendent country even if _de facto_ it is.


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> Because the Dutch media doesn't know anything about the European Union, despite daily reports about EU issues. Croatia joined the EU. It did not enter the Schengen agreement. Hence border crossings are business as usual.


Not quite. There's still the passport formality, but since Croatia joined the EU, freight can now cross the border freely without having to clear and declare it with customs.


----------



## Eulanthe

Ni3lS said:


> I see. They're off about many things lately. However, I asked the landlord here in Pula today what's up with the border crossing and he said it's always bad. Now Croatia is part of the EU there is 1km less traffic jammed up before the border. He said that the border did open early July. The customs agents didn't really check the passports, just holding them out of the window while driving through was enough apparently.


And this is what irritates me most about the Schengen agreement. 

Slovenia was guilty of not checking passports properly on exit before Croatia joined the EU, but now it sounds like they're doing the same as many other countries - not bothering to check EU citizens properly and often frequently waving them through on the basis of a passport cover alone. 

Even the EU says that a minimum check applicable to EU citizens should be an identity check and a check to make sure that the passport/ID card isn't false.


----------



## Baiazid

ChrisZwolle said:


> Croatia joined the EU. It did not enter the Schengen agreement. Hence border crossings are business as usual.


Not quite. Joining EU implies free movement of the goods. And that means no customs between member states. However, what remains is the border control, meaning the check of the documents of the people and of the vehicles crossing the border.

So something has changed, yet the border is not "open". It was the same for Romania in 2007.


----------



## italystf

Map of the Free Territory of Trieste (1953)








Notice that the demarcation line between the A-zone (allied-occupied) and B-zone (Yugoslavia-occipied) doesn't match perfectly with the current I-SLO border, as we lost few square kms more near Muggia in 1954 (when the Free Territory of Trieste ceased to exist).
You can notice the Sistiana-Opicina 2-lane expressway that was built by allies after WWII and now it's mostly part of the RA13 motorway.

Although in 1954 the Memorandum of London declared that Italy will *temporarily administrate* the A-zone (except few sq. kms given to YU) and Yugoslavia the B-zone, nothing was said about the *definitive sovreignity* of those lands. Italy could still claim its sovreignity in the B-zone and vice-versa.

Between 1947 and 1954, the Free Territory of Trieste was officially an indipendent country, recognized by the UN as such and received Marshall Plan funds separately. However, practically, it was made by two different entities, with a different government, currency and border controls between them.

After 20 years of _de-facto_ annexation of those territories, Italy and Yugoslavia signed the Osimo Treaty in 1975. The two countries agreed to make definitive the "temporary administration" stated by the Memorandum of London. Both countries renounced of any claim on the territory assigned to the other.

But... there was still a problem. The UN never signed the dissolution of the Free Territory of Trieste, so even if this country disappeared 59 years ago, the ownership of the Trieste province by Italy (and probably also of the Istrian littoral by Slovenia and Croatia) still isn't 100% legally legitimated.

This allows some citizens of Trieste to found a movement that support the indipendence of Trieste from Italy (similar to the more (in)famous Suedtiroler Volkspartei in Alto Adige). In the case of Trieste, the main aim of this "indipendentism" isn't patriotic but economical: they wish to avoid paying the Italian taxes and make the little province a tax heaven.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Notice that the demarcation line between the A-zone (allied-occupied) and B-zone (Yugoslavia-occipied) doesn't match perfectly with the current I-SLO border, as we lost few square kms more near Muggia in 1954


I used to bathe there a lot.  (although the last time I swam there, there was still Yugoslavia :shifty


----------



## erxgli

*Belize-Guatemala border*

*crossing the Belize-Guatemala border*






































*Guatemala wants to recover 12,270 sq. kilometers (4,737 sq. miles) of territory, or nearly half of Belize.
*

*This area has been in dispute since 150 years ago, after Guatemala got its independence from Spain and Belize was still a British colony.*


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> I used to bathe there a lot.  (although the last time I swam there, there was still Yugoslavia :shifty












No swimming near the border


----------



## alserrod

I almost knew but wanted to have a new look. Almost all coast borders in Spain aren't for swimming in the beach.

This is:

Portugal. Both (In Galicia and Andalucia) have the border in rivers so there is not an international beach or so.

France. In the Basque country it is in a river. In Catalonia it is in a rocky area. You can swim there, of course... but no sandy beaches in the area.

Gibraltar. Eastern side is a harbour. Western side is a fenced beach

Ceuta. Both ones are fenced beaches

Melilla. Southern side is a harbour. Northern side is a rocky side (like in the Catalonia area)

So three out of eight are fenced beaches. The rest... rocky areas or just rivers in the border where it gains the sea.

(Obviously... do not ask about Andorran borders and the sea)


----------



## italystf

June 1991: Slovenian soldiers replace the Yugoslavian entry sign with the Slovenian one by the Italian border









Other pics 1991
























Don't know which border crossing is and why the E63 is signposted there.

This is the I-SLO border at Pesek. The road now is E61.


















Italian border again (don't know where). Italian tourists escaping Yugoslavia when the war outbreak.

















































If many Italians probably don't know that a part of our country (Trieste province) wasn't Italian until as late as 1954, probably even less know that we had an armed conflict fought just outside our borders only 20 years ago. Yes, the Yugoslav tanks arrived only few meters before Italy in Nova Gorica.
When the JNA was defeated and Slovenia and Croatia declared their indipendence, Yugoslav soldiers had to escape from Slovenia and Croatia. The Italian government agreed that they could cross into Italy and escape by boat from the Trieste port. Trieste citizens, that remembered the horrible Yugoslavian invasion that just 46 years before killed thousands of Italian citizens, started a revolt against the decision of our government: allowing the JNA passing through Trieste is like allowing the SS passing through Israel. So they made an agreement that they could escape through Koper port.


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> I almost knew but wanted to have a new look. Almost all coast borders in Spain aren't for swimming in the beach.
> 
> This is:
> 
> Portugal. Both (In Galicia and Andalucia) have the border in rivers so there is not an international beach or so.
> 
> France. In the Basque country it is in a river. In Catalonia it is in a rocky area. You can swim there, of course... but no sandy beaches in the area.
> 
> Gibraltar. Eastern side is a harbour. Western side is a fenced beach
> 
> Ceuta. Both ones are fenced beaches
> 
> Melilla. Southern side is a harbour. Northern side is a rocky side (like in the Catalonia area)
> 
> So three out of eight are fenced beaches. The rest... rocky areas or just rivers in the border where it gains the sea.
> 
> (Obviously... do not ask about Andorran borders and the sea)


The sign at the I-SLO border is obviously pre-Schengen and it doesn't make any sense today, unless there are other reasons to ban swimming there.

Some pics of the only other Italian coastal border: I-F between Ventimiglia and Mentone
























Also here no swimming beaches, only rocks.


----------



## volodaaaa

Not many tourists were escaping Yugoslavia (and later Croatia) when the war began. I know a weird family who has been continually visiting Vodice destination in Croatia for holiday since 1985 even during war period. According to they, lot of other people were there bathing and sunbathing even though they heard the shooting and explosions.


----------



## italystf

During Yugoslav wars (1991-95) you could safely visit Slovenia and the Croatian Istria, except during those 10 days in summer '91.


----------



## Surel

volodaaaa said:


> Not many tourists were escaping Yugoslavia (and later Croatia) when the war began. I know a weird family who has been continually visiting Vodice destination in Croatia for holiday since 1985 even during war period. According to they, lot of other people were there bathing and sunbathing even though they heard the shooting and explosions.


Another sort of adrenalin holiday . I talked once with a guy who told me they just watched the TV and saw a crater on a place where they parked their car weeks earlier in Yugoslavia during their holiday.


----------



## WB2010

italystf said:


>


Ventimiglia - The gates of Italy ... where the beauty is borderless.

Great, but very few foreigners are able to understand this ...


----------



## alserrod

I understood all the text. I do not know if a French would be able to understand all the text too.

Think that almost all international traffic should come from France, later Spain and finally Portugal. Other countries would choose a different border to enter into Italy.


----------



## Palance

italystf said:


> During Yugoslav wars (1991-95) you could safely visit Slovenia and the Croatian Istria, except during those 10 days in summer '91.


And Zagreb (I was there in 1992). What also interested me: the then Croatian bordercrossing with Hunary still had "Yugoslav" coloured ramps.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/30368442.jpg
> 
> No swimming near the border
> http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/30368480.jpg
> 
> http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/37592064.jpg


I bathed here a lot when I was small, not directly on the border.



alserrod said:


> I almost knew but wanted to have a new look. Almost all coast borders in Spain aren't for swimming in the beach.
> 
> This is:
> 
> Portugal. Both (In Galicia and Andalucia) have the border in rivers so there is not an international beach or so.
> 
> France. In the Basque country it is in a river. In Catalonia it is in a rocky area. You can swim there, of course... but no sandy beaches in the area.
> 
> Gibraltar. Eastern side is a harbour. Western side is a fenced beach
> 
> Ceuta. Both ones are fenced beaches
> 
> Melilla. Southern side is a harbour. Northern side is a rocky side (like in the Catalonia area)
> 
> So three out of eight are fenced beaches. The rest... rocky areas or just rivers in the border where it gains the sea.
> 
> (Obviously... do not ask about Andorran borders and the sea)


You can bathe between Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera and Morocco (in both bays, I assume):









http://i50.tinypic.com/2yy376h.jpg


----------



## alserrod

you're right... I forgot the "blue rope border"


----------



## carlesnuc

Verso said:


> I bathed here a lot when I was small, not directly on the border.
> 
> You can bathe between Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera and Morocco (in both bays, I assume):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://i50.tinypic.com/2yy376h.jpg


there I was doing military service in 1986......


----------



## Autobahn-mann

italystf said:


> Don't know which border crossing is and why the E63 is signposted there.
> The road now is E61.


Maybe it was the old E-road classification...


----------



## Verso

carlesnuc said:


> there I was doing military service





carlesnuc said:


> there I was doing military service in 1986......


Ok. 



Autobahn-mann said:


> Maybe it was the old E-road classification...


Yes, it's E61 now and it's the same border crossing as on the other pics - Pesek (sand) / Kozina (in Krvavi potok (bloody creek )).


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Yes, it's E61 now and it's the same border crossing as on the other pics - Pesek (sand) / Kozina (in Krvavi potok (bloody creek )).


There are many "bloody creeks" (creeks, caves full of blood) in that area, if we reminds 1945 events. hno:


----------



## Verso

"Creek" is American for a stream, not a cave.


----------



## italystf

Inscriprion on the Monte Sabotino near Gorizia (the red line is the border).








The building, on the Italian soil, is an old military installation from the cold war era.
In the opposite side of then mountain they wrote:









Border stones on that mountain


----------



## Verso

Is "W" simply "viva" or more like "Viva il Duce!"?


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Is "W" simply "viva" or more like "Viva il Duce!"?


W is simply viva. For example Milan supporters write and shout "W Milan".

Another use in this land art work near Gorizia:










It's still visible on Google Maps but the famous label "Strada dei Campi" was removed by Google and isn't googlable anymore with its famous address.
https://maps.google.it/maps?q=Farra...D'isonzo,+Gorizia,+Friuli-Venezia+Giulia&z=17


----------



## x-type

Eulanthe said:


> Slovenia was guilty of not checking passports properly on exit before Croatia joined the EU, but now it sounds like they're doing the same as many other countries - not bothering to check EU citizens properly and often frequently waving them through on the basis of a passport cover alone.


really!? i have never, but really never entered nor exited Slovenia without getting stamp!


----------



## Skyline_

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/38634449


Source: http://www.panoramio.com/user/4786906

Mountain border crossing between Greece and Albania (Koshovice).


----------



## Skyline_

Greece - Albania mountain borders. There is no clear border line although it is determined by the summit line! 

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/64519994?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/57839279?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com

Mt. Grammos border signs (Greece-Albania).


----------



## Alex_ZR

Border stone at the bank of the Danube in Kladovo, Serbia. On the other side is Turnu Severin in Romania.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

arribes del duero , border P-E


----------



## Road_UK

Live cams on the Spanish Gibraltar border, where queues are starting to build up. This is due to revenge from the Spanish authorities due to tension that has been happening in Gibraltar waters today between the British army and police vs the Spanish Guardia Civil.... 

www.frontierqueue.gi/

Guardia Civil vessel attempted to
exercise executive action over a
Gibraltar-based tug in British Gibraltar
territorial waters yesterday.
The tug and its barge were engaged in
work to lay concrete blocks on the
seabed as part of a Gibraltar
Government-plan to create an artificial
reef in the area.
But with the Spanish fishing boat Divina
Providencia just metres away, the
Guardia Civil did not take long to move
in.


----------



## Road_UK

HMS SABRE called on Rio Cadena "to cease
actions and leave British Gibraltar Territorial
Waters immediately"
A few moments ago the Guardia Civil vessel ‘Rio
Cadena’ was being pursued the Royal Navy
vessel ‘HMS Sabre’ as she navigated along the
Gibraltar moles at 100 metres from them
HMS SABRE called on Rio Cadena "to cease
actions and leave British Gibraltar Territorial
Waters immediately"
The GC vessel being a much faster vessel and
having a head start of half a mile continued her
course regardless...


----------



## Road_UK

LATEST.... Border queues are building up on the Gibraltar side
of the land frontier. At present queues are building
up to a 45 minute wait and it seems that the
Guardia Civil are employing the now traditional
"delay tactics" as a reaction to Gibraltar's small
win in Gibraltar Waters yesterday.
As has become the norm, the Spanish Government
order delays at the frontier in order to
inconvenience Gibraltarians and visitors to the
Rock. The reality is that whilst locals are affected,
the largely affected are the near 8000 - 9000
Spanish workers who come in daily to work in
Gibraltar. They normally have to endure long waits
at the border that prolong themselves into hours
after a hard day's work in Gibraltar, and under the
Summer sun and today's temperature which
exceeds 30 degrees Celsius.
Unconfirmed reports are circulating in Gibraltar that
Guardia Civil border agents have threatened that
we could be facing 7 - hour delays at the land
border this evening.
http://www.frontierqueue.gi/


----------



## Road_UK

WATERS LATEST>>>>
Guardia Civil vessel chased out of British Gibraltar
Territorial Waters by Royal Navy.
Time for more Tea. Bliss!


----------



## darko06

italystf said:


> Map of the Free Territory of Trieste (1953)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice that the demarcation line between the A-zone (allied-occupied) and B-zone (Yugoslavia-occipied) doesn't match perfectly with the current I-SLO border, as we lost few square kms more near Muggia in 1954 (when the Free Territory of Trieste ceased to exist).
> *You can notice the Sistiana-Opicina 2-lane expressway that was built by allies after WWII and now it's mostly part of the RA13 motorway.*
> 
> Although in 1954 the Memorandum of London declared that Italy will *temporarily administrate* the A-zone (except few sq. kms given to YU) and Yugoslavia the B-zone, nothing was said about the *definitive sovreignity* of those lands. Italy could still claim its sovreignity in the B-zone and vice-versa.
> 
> Between 1947 and 1954, the Free Territory of Trieste was officially an indipendent country, recognized by the UN as such and received Marshall Plan funds separately. However, practically, it was made by two different entities, with a different government, currency and border controls between them.
> 
> After 20 years of _de-facto_ annexation of those territories, Italy and Yugoslavia signed the Osimo Treaty in 1975. The two countries agreed to make definitive the "temporary administration" stated by the Memorandum of London. Both countries renounced of any claim on the territory assigned to the other.
> 
> But... there was still a problem. The UN never signed the dissolution of the Free Territory of Trieste, so even if this country disappeared 59 years ago, the ownership of the Trieste province by Italy (and probably also of the Istrian littoral by Slovenia and Croatia) still isn't 100% legally legitimated.
> 
> This allows some citizens of Trieste to found a movement that support the indipendence of Trieste from Italy (similar to the more (in)famous Suedtiroler Volkspartei in Alto Adige). In the case of Trieste, the main aim of this "indipendentism" isn't patriotic but economical: they wish to avoid paying the Italian taxes and make the little province a tax heaven.


I pointed it out a year or more ago: this 2 laned but unusually wide expressway was OBVIOUSLY built between the years 1945 and 1948 to help transportation of tanks from ITA-TLT zone A border to TLT zone A-TLT zone B border, to prevent any attempt of Yugoslav Army to recapture city of Trieste. Similarly, at the coast in vicinity of Poreč/Parenzo Yugoslav Army erected two small bunkers (still exist today) to shoot on Allied troops in the possible case of capturing Western Istrian Coast.
Of course that, after Tito broke with Stalin, when FPRY (Federal People's Republic (of) Yugoslavia) unofficially entered NATO, this installations became obsolete.
Thank you for posting this map.


----------



## darko06

However, I would say that rather late rebuilding of this expressway into RA13 in the middle of the 1980es should suggest that the Allies and NATO did not believe in official Yugoslav policy, at least until signing of Osimo Treaty in 1975. (Tito in 1956 turned back from NATO and started his "unaligned" policy.)


----------



## darko06

It is possible that the impression of this expressway turned back Tito and his hardliner "Krajina" generals (Jovanic, Ljubicic, Kadijevic etc.) from supporting Kavčič administration in Slovenia and Savka Dabčević Kučar administration in Croatia and premature cease of building Ljubljana-Koper and Zagreb-Karlovac-Rijeka/Split motorways in 1971. The consequences of this decision are very well known and still present.


----------



## darko06

italystf said:


> June 1991: Slovenian soldiers replace the Yugoslavian entry sign with the Slovenian one by the Italian border
> 
> If many Italians probably don't know that a part of our country (Trieste province) wasn't Italian until as late as 1954, probably even less know that we had an armed conflict fought just outside our borders only 20 years ago. Yes, the Yugoslav tanks arrived only few meters before Italy in Nova Gorica.
> When the JNA was defeated and Slovenia and Croatia declared their indipendence, Yugoslav soldiers had to escape from Slovenia and Croatia. The Italian government agreed that they could cross into Italy and escape by boat from the Trieste port. Trieste citizens, that remembered the horrible Yugoslavian invasion that just 46 years before killed thousands of Italian citizens, started a revolt against the decision of our government: allowing the JNA passing through Trieste is like allowing the SS passing through Israel. So they made an agreement that they could escape through Koper port.


I congratulate to the brave Trieste citizens that they not allowed the enemy to enter in the beautiful city of Trieste again!:cheers::cheers:


----------



## darko06

Palance said:


> And Zagreb (I was there in 1992). What also interested me: the then Croatian bordercrossing with Hunary still had "Yugoslav" coloured ramps.


This is saying much about Croatian laziness and sloppiness: Croatian Railyaws even today possess all distance markings at railroads from Belgrade!!!:nuts:hno::bash:


----------



## volodaaaa

popcalent said:


> Brand new EU border sign. I ignore the name of the POI.


Should not be the "Republika Hrvatska" heading written in the center of the circle made of stars instead of EU?

Like this one


----------



## Robi_damian

volodaaaa said:


> Should not be the "Republika Hrvatska" heading written in the center of the circle made of stars instead of EU?


I believe this is only used for Schengen states. Romania also uses a similar type of signage on the border with Moldova.


----------



## hofburg

not quite, the above type is used at external eu border, the country name inside the stars is used at internal border crossings. I wonder if Slovenia changed now its signs at border with Croatia.


----------



## Vignole

Road_UK said:


> protests to Spain over
> Gibraltar border traffic delays
> 28 July 2013 Last updated at 19:58
> ...


Here you have a video. Amazing!






Source: http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=30237


----------



## Road_UK

Yes. Spain's way of wanting to disrupt life in Gibraltar. What Spain doesn't realise is that it affects 1000's of Spanish workers crossing that border every day to go to work.


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> Yes. Spain's way of wanting to disrupt life in Gibraltar. What Spain doesn't realise is that it affects 1000's of Spanish workers crossing that border every day to go to work.


But also to buy cheap fuel, tobacco and other stuff. Is this that Spain doesn't like.


----------



## Road_UK

It's got nothing to do with that. It's about the Guardia Civil trying to play God in Gibraltar waters, and it ended up in a conflict between the Spanish Guardia Civil and the Gibraltar Royal Police. As a revenge they've decided to check every single vehicle on the border going both ways in and out. One every 30 minutes were allowed to go through in sweltering temperatures. On the Gibraltar side there was the police and volunteers to assist waiting motorists with water and aid. One the Spanish side, where there was also up to 6 hour delays, there was nothing apart from a Guardia Civil officer beating up a Gibraltarian as the Gibraltar Police on the other side looked on helplessly. It's all about the Spanish not willing to accept that Gibraltar is and will remain British, so they turn to medieval practices to disrupt life in good ol' Gib as much as they can.


----------



## cinxxx

^^Isn't that what you want? No Schengen, control every car. You posted some days ago that you want no more Schengen between some EU member states and pointed UK as example, not being Schengen member


----------



## Palance

Robi_damian said:


> I believe this is only used for Schengen states. Romania also uses a similar type of signage on the border with Moldova.


Bulgaria is not a Schengen state but also has the wellknown European signs at the border.


----------



## Skyline_

I crossed the Greece-Bulgaria border, yesterday (Kulata). It took me under a minute for each direction. I stopped (5 passengers in the car), ID cards barely checked within a few seconds and then I drove again. Piece of cake.


----------



## Road_UK

cinxxx said:


> ^^Isn't that what you want? No Schengen, control every car. You posted some days ago that you want no more Schengen between some EU member states and pointed UK as example, not being Schengen member


Only with certain countries. Like Romania for example. Besides, Gibraltar doesn't fall under Schengen. Checks have always taken place on that border, and when I go through both the Spanish as well as the Gibraltar authorities always take a look in the back of my van. That's not a bad thing. It only takes a a couple of minutes. Same as when I crossed the Hungary Romania border the last time, and I ended up chatting about the weather and road conditions with the Romanian border guard...


----------



## alserrod

Have watched on tv and ministery says that just regular checks at all. Not being part os schengen means that they can glance your car or making and exhaustive check.

Considering the amount of drugs smugglered from the rock yearly (and the beginning of the conflict) seems something like "we will not have facilities to control sea smugglers but we will check all the cars"

I do not know who wins with this situation but surely, not the drivers.


----------



## Road_UK

alserrod said:


> Have watched on tv and ministery says that just regular checks at all. Not being part os schengen means that they can glance your car or making and exhaustive check.
> 
> Considering the amount of drugs smugglered from the rock yearly (and the beginning of the conflict) seems something like "we will not have facilities to control sea smugglers but we will check all the cars"
> 
> I do not know who wins with this situation but surely, not the drivers.


Yes, that's your Spanish version of events. 6 hour delay both ways is ridiculously long, and only happened because the Guardia Civil got beaten by the Royal Gibraltar Police and the Royal Navy. Nothing else.


----------



## alserrod

Every year tons and tons of drugs and other goods are smuggled
I do not know how do they arrive to the rock and which custom borders do they have but the number of things catched in the road border or in the bay is just amazing.
Crossing the border means availability to go to the other corner of Europe with no controls as you know. Drugs and weapons incluided.

In one hand you have a country more worried to their territory as seems. In the other hand a country more worried on smuggling rather than in territories.

Problems with territories? Second option. All Schengen control apply to the border and beaches in the nearby. Beaches do not appear on images because they are not suffered by drivers, almost only by smugglers but the control is the same one.

Nevertheless, controls aren't different for cars coming from Andorra or Morocco (Portugal and France do not have at all). Which are the differences? They are customs are ready for huge controls. As you have read in this thread all cars (and they are not foreing at all mainly) coming from Andorra are stopped.


Solutions? Easy.... Trust in an anti smuggling policy and collaboration. Just avoid to have a great deal of goods catched in the border


----------



## verreme

^^ British police in Gibraltar are very lenient with smugglers, and this means a lot of illegal goods enter Spain every day because of it (drugs included). The Spanish police know it and they are just upset with it. We've been having this problem since very long ago and it's not the first time the border controls get stricter. It is not a territorial issue, Spain has little interest in getting Gibraltar back.


----------



## Fatfield

verreme said:


> ^^ British police in Gibraltar are very lenient with smugglers, and this means a lot of illegal goods enter Spain every day because of it (drugs included). The Spanish police know it and they are just upset with it. We've been having this problem since very long ago and it's not the first time the border controls get stricter. It is not a territorial issue, Spain has little interest in getting Gibraltar back.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Road_UK

verreme said:


> ^^ British police in Gibraltar are very lenient with smugglers, and this means a lot of illegal goods enter Spain every day because of it (drugs included). The Spanish police know it and they are just upset with it. We've been having this problem since very long ago and it's not the first time the border controls get stricter. It is not a territorial issue, Spain has little interest in getting Gibraltar back.


Do you believe in Santa?


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Well the Spanish government might, but I would be surprised if the percentage of Spanish people that really care is very high.


----------



## alserrod

DanielFigFoz said:


> Well the Spanish government might, but I would be surprised if the percentage of Spanish people that really care is very high.


In the last SSC poll made about one year ago, a great deal of forumers had no business in that issue.....


----------



## popcalent

Robi_damian said:


> I believe this is only used for Schengen states. Romania also uses a similar type of signage on the border with Moldova.


I didn't know that. But two years ago I crossed Slovenia and they had the blue sign with the name of the country inside the starts at the border with Italy, and a white one with the name of the country, the coat of arms, and underneath a blue one with EU inside the stars at the border with Croatia (similar to the Croatian one I posted).


----------



## Road_UK

Partly wrong. Customs are entitled to stop and search you anywhere within Schengen. Not just on borders, but also far inland as they do in France and Germany. And sometimes even in Belgium and Italy.

Both French and German customs are still pretty active alongside their mutual borders.

And they will make inquiries about cigarettes, alcohol and fuel in jerrycans bought in other member states, and fine you if you're over the limit. But mostly they're searching for drugs.


----------



## UK86

I understand Schengen as a scheme of free movement but at what point does it have the ability to stop criminals passing through borders? Is there an EU wide arrest warrant? Even so if there is, the criminal could have already passed from one jurisdiction to another.


----------



## x-type

Alqaszar said:


> If I could ever understand why they had to split up good ol' Yugoslavia. They will end up in the EU anyway, they just could have skipped civil war. But maybe they got a border crossing fetish down there.
> 
> However, Yugoslavia is a nice country, and after my own nation really fucked up during the last century, I've learned to ask no question how far human insanity will go.


because it was artificially created country, so its alpha decay was obvious.


----------



## Kaczorm

bogdymol said:


> But to wait 3-4 days at a border crossing :nuts: :crazy:


It's normal on Polish-Ukranian border crossings. Maybe not for private cars ( often you have to wait for 8 hours one way, sometimes you can cross the border in 30 minutes but rarely ) but for trucks. There are often queues for 10-20 kms so it takes them 2-3 days to cross. But remember, UA is not in the EU.


----------



## PLH

Road_UK said:


> Pfff... Comes out of nowhere ordering me about... This Gibraltar border situation is a big thing right now.


Wrong answer.


----------



## bogdymol

^^


----------



## cinxxx

http://praguemonitor.com/2013/08/05...-kitchen-utensil-official-religious-head-gear

*Czech "Pastafarian" wins right to wear kitchen utensil as official religious head gear*


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ He's a fraud. According to our religious beliefs, we Pastafarians dress as pirates.


----------



## Eulanthe

PLH - I hope this post is acceptable!

In reference to the Spain/Gibraltar border crossing, something that struck me after visiting there several times was how utterly poorly equipped the whole border crossing was on both sides. 

For instance, as far as I remember, there are only three lanes crossing from Spain into Gibraltar - two car and one truck. That's absolutely pathetic by all accounts for such a busy border crossing.

In respects to the Spanish exit crossing - they have plenty of land on the Spanish side and could easily build a modern facility with the ability to do proper Schengen exit checks there. The Gibraltar side is more pushed for space, but there should be the space to at least build a 'one stop control' building with 6 lanes rather than the current 3. 

Changing over to the Gib exit/Spain entry situation - 

Gibraltar's lack of interest in exit controls is their decision, but Spain has no reason not to build a much bigger facility on their side to handle the traffic. They've got a significant amount of space on their side - if they wanted, they could build a modern border terminal holding both exit and entry controls and allowing lanes to be reversed as required. 

I've always found the Spanish and Gibraltarian approach to passport controls on that border to be nothing short of diabolical given Schengen rules - I don't think I've once opened my passport there, including one stupid night that resulted in crossing the border drunk many times (a friend lives close to the border on the Gibraltar side, we came up with the idea to drink a beer on the Gib side, then a shot on the Spanish side, repeat).


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Here are some photos of a virtually unknown border dispute with Spain that no one cares about. According to the Spanish government, the West bank of the River Guadiana in this area is Spanish and according to Portugal, both sides of the river are Portuguese, the 'dispute' covering the municipalities of Olivenza and Táliga (or Olivença and Talega). 

I went there in July. My camera as out of battery, so I took the photos with my phone. (Apart from the first one I think).

So on the road from Elvas to Olivenza, there are two bridges, an old ruined one and a new one. 

*Elvas [P]/Olivenza[E]/Olivença[P]*























































And the old bridge:


----------



## Palance

cinxxx said:


> http://praguemonitor.com/2013/08/05...-kitchen-utensil-official-religious-head-gear


Great! A couple of years ago we had a Dutchman who managed to get an ID-card with a photo with him as a Joker, because it was his religion


----------



## g.spinoza

DanielFigFoz said:


> Here are some photos of a virtually unknown border dispute with Spain that no one cares about. According to the Spanish government, the West bank of the River Guadiana in this area is Spanish and according to Portugal, both sides of the river are Portuguese, the 'dispute' covering the municipalities of Olivenza and Táliga (or Olivença and Talega).


What do local populations think?


----------



## alserrod

There was one poll in a newspaper and indiference was the result. This is... A lot of generations have passed since then and current one takes no care. They do not have special feelings... That's all. And since being part of EU when it is easier to share anything and do not have customs... They take less care indeed.

By the way, in Spain there are official language schools which offers you a diploma (teaching until level C1 and being an official diploma given by ministery).
They are in main cities and towns
Spme of them bigger or quite small. Some of them with only three or four languages to teach, other ones more (record, one with 23 different languages, a real Babel tower).

And... In fact, half of Spanish pupils who learn Portuguese are from that region. Yeah... It is a boundy region with Portugal and its biggest city only 4 km away from the border. But it is not quite populated at all and I am talking about half Spanish pupils who learn Portuguese live there.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ What do people in Olivenza speak as first language, apart from school? I mean, what do they speak at home? Language has a big influence on the sense of identity.


----------



## alserrod

Spanish... But let's remember that for four decades a generation had another government, without international movements.

There is a curious case in the north of Portugal were two quite smalls villages are joined but separates by a river... and a border.

Bars are only in one side and shops in the other side. You will hear there both languages in both sides.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Portuguese was spoken there until the 1950's and until relatively recently it was discouraged by the Spanish government (in the 19th century, not long after it became Spanish the schools were forced to teach in Spanish etc. There is however in the museum a very interesting plaque that must have been on a house, and is not 200 years old, which was obviously put up by some people not happy that Olivenza was in Spain). I did get the impression, however, that people there understood Portuguese better than most Spanish people.

Have a look in the bilingual signs thread in a moment.


----------



## ScraperDude

Does Russia have an International border fence a few KM inside of Russia/Finnish border? or is it some old border fence before a border alignment? Kuoloyarvi, Murmanskaya it seems to cross the road there.


----------



## OulaL

ScraperDude said:


> Does Russia have an International border fence a few KM inside of Russia/Finnish border? or is it some old border fence before a border alignment? Kuoloyarvi, Murmanskaya it seems to cross the road there.


Hard to tell without actually seeing it.

How do the road and the fence cross each other - is there any control? If not, it might be a reindeer fence - meant to prevent the reindeer from wandering abroad, or even too close to the actual borderline.


----------



## Eulanthe

ScraperDude said:


> Does Russia have an International border fence a few KM inside of Russia/Finnish border? or is it some old border fence before a border alignment? Kuoloyarvi, Murmanskaya it seems to cross the road there.


As I recall - yes. It's the old Soviet border fence, and as far as I'm aware is still maintained.


----------



## Penn's Woods

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ What do people in Olivenza speak as first language, apart from school? I mean, what do they speak at home? Language has a big influence on the sense of identity.


(1) There's an interesting site on this sort of thing: http://ec.europa.eu/languages/euromosaic/es8_en.htm

(2) Um, hi, all. :hi:


----------



## bogdymol

Hello :wave:

What happened?


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^I left for a while, lurked for a bit, left again....

To the extent possible, I just want to look at the pretty pictures. Now why can't I see the signature I just said up that says so?

:cheers:

EDIT: Ah. There it is. I thought it showed up on old posts. Not important....


----------



## keokiracer

One day after Road_UK gets banned Penn's Woods returns. Suspicious.... 

Welcome back Penn!


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Coincidence. I liked him, although he had his moments. (We all have our moments.)

I'd been "looking at pretty pictures" around here for a few days.

I thought I could contribute to this thread, the point about Olivenza.


----------



## erxgli

Are there Islands wit borders? 
I mean, two or more countries in just one island.
Does someoody know??? :cheers::cheers:


----------



## keokiracer

Sint-Maarten / Saint Martin (NL-FR)


----------



## El Tiburon

erxgli said:


> Are there Islands wit borders?
> I mean, two or more countries in just one island.
> Does someoody know??? :cheers::cheers:


Dominican Republic and Haiti in Hispaniola Island; Chile and Argentina in Tierra del Fuego Island; Indonesia and Papua New Guinea in New Guinea Island; Brunei, Indonesia and Malaysia in Borneo Island; Sweden and Finland in Märket Island, etc.


----------



## OriK

UK86 said:


> I understand Schengen as a scheme of free movement but at what point does it have the ability to stop criminals passing through borders? Is there an EU wide arrest warrant? Even so if there is, the criminal could have already passed from one jurisdiction to another.


AFAIK, the police of a Schengen country is able to cross the borders when watching out a suspect with prior authorization.

When there is urgency, the authorization can be asked after crossing the border but the stay of the "alien police" is limited to 5 hours (it might be extended if the authorization is issued, or the police might be forced to stop the watch if requested by the country).

If during a chase, the fugitive crosses a border, the police is entitled to cross the border to continue the chase reporting the case immediately to the implied country. The limits on this right are set by bilateral agreements, for example in the case of Spain and Portugal, the limit is 2 hours or 50 km from the border. I think that the arrest must be made by the "home police" but the "alien police" is allowed to retain the fugitive until the "home police" arrives. I also think that the "home police" is supposed to continue the chase asap.

If the judge thinks that a suspect has crossed a border, it can issue a order of arrest to the other country.

Furthermore, and althought I think this is unrelated to Schengen, the police of a country is sometimes invited to another one when there might be a high concentration of citizens of that country.

For example:

French police in Madrid








Source








Source








Source

Portuguese and Spanish police together:








Source (more pics)


----------



## timeandspace

afaik there are EU wide arrest warrants since 2002. this is why physical borders within EU and schengen are old-fashioned, not to mention license-plate based controls at the borders. 

it is precisely by entirely linking up the periphery with the centers that you can solve the host of social and material, development issue that contribute to criminality and u can take advantage of increased mobility, productivity and lower prices. only via union-wide spreading of equal opportunities and zero prejudices is fairer future possible. 

in the meantime policing is co-ordinated, there is surveillance at the border points,but known or sought after individuals can be apprehended via cooperation in a union territory country, controlling the entire passenger traffic at border points or even worse according to nationality is by all means unacceptable as "credible reason" for suspicion, it is a return to the star on shirt/sleeve.


----------



## Fatfield

erxgli said:


> Are there Islands wit borders?
> I mean, two or more countries in just one island.
> Does someoody know??? :cheers::cheers:


Northern Ireland - Republic of Ireland
England - Scotland - Wales
Haiti - Dominican Republic


----------



## Alex_ZR

^^ East Timor-Indonesia.


----------



## alserrod

Brunei


----------



## g.spinoza

Cuba (Cuba - US)

Cyprus (Cyprus - UK, not counting North Cyprus)

and more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divided_islands


----------



## Skyline_

OriK said:


> AFAIK, the police of a Schengen country is able to cross the borders when watching out a suspect with prior authorization.
> 
> When there is urgency, the authorization can be asked after crossing the border but the stay of the "alien police" is limited to 5 hours (it might be extended if the authorization is issued, or the police might be forced to stop the watch if requested by the country).
> 
> If during a chase, the fugitive crosses a border, the police is entitled to cross the border to continue the chase reporting the case immediately to the implied country. The limits on this right are set by bilateral agreements, for example in the case of Spain and Portugal, the limit is 2 hours or 50 km from the border. I think that the arrest must be made by the "home police" but the "alien police" is allowed to retain the fugitive until the "home police" arrives. I also think that the "home police" is supposed to continue the chase asap.
> 
> If the judge thinks that a suspect has crossed a border, it can issue a order of arrest to the other country.
> 
> Furthermore, and althought I think this is unrelated to Schengen, the police of a country is sometimes invited to another one when there might be a high concentration of citizens of that country.
> 
> For example:
> 
> French police in Madrid
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source
> 
> Portuguese and Spanish police together:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source (more pics)




Incredible... That would have been unheard of, a few decades ago. :nuts:

There could be linguistic barriers though. What if they don't understand each other? Do all Spaniards speak Portuguese, for example? :lol:


----------



## eucitizen

You may find sometime police from other countries on xternal Schengen borders. Once it happened that I was crossing from Serbia to Hungary and an austrian policeman checked me. I must say that he was better than the hungarian ones.


----------



## Penn's Woods

El Tiburon said:


> Dominican Republic and Haiti in Hispaniola Island; Chile and Argentina in Tierra del Fuego Island; Indonesia and Papua New Guinea in New Guinea Island; Brunei, Indonesia and Malaysia in Borneo Island; Sweden and Finland in Märket Island, etc.


England, Scotland and Wales on Great Britain. 

(And Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.)

EDIT: Damn. Fatfield got England, Scotland and Wales. But I was joking, since they're all one "country" in the sense that they're all the same nation-state.


----------



## dundee5486

You will also find Italian Police at the Oktoberfest in Munich/Germany.


----------



## g.spinoza

dundee5486 said:


> You will also find Italian Police at the Oktoberfest in Munich/Germany.


Guess why :cheers:


----------



## Skyline_

dundee5486 said:


> You will also find Italian Police at the Oktoberfest in Munich/Germany.


For real? WTF is going on in Europe? :nuts:


----------



## Attus

dundee5486 said:


> You will also find Italian Police at the Oktoberfest in Munich/Germany.


In festival "Sziget" in Budapest, there are usually German, Austrian and Dutch police there.


----------



## Skyline_

italystf said:


> I cannot believe it's so easy, I tought there were military guards 24/7 on that spot. The USA-MEX border is one of the most militarized in the world. (Mexico is one of the main drugs producer countries and there's a lot of illegal immigration to the USA).


Normally, the fence goes all the way into the sea when it is high tide...


----------



## Road_UK

italystf said:


> It's the same in Gorizia/Nova Gorica.


Kerkrade (NL) and Herzogenrath (D). They share a street now called the Nieuwstraat - Neustrasse. That street used to be divided by a wall before the Schengen era, these days it's a joint Dutch - German road, and at the end of it there's a big community building right on the border where also both the German and Dutch police have their offices. Loads of photos at the beginning of this thread...


----------



## Penn's Woods

I've always wondered about places like that: does the language really change that abruptly when crossing the street or do people pick up enough of the other side's language that they can communicate. (I guess here, there's at least an international border, but there are places in Belgium where one side of a main street's officially French-speaking and the other German....)

EDIT: such as here: https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=50.660072,5.980382&spn=0.018363,0.045447&t=m&z=15


----------



## Road_UK

I'm sure they speak each others languages. The Germans speak pretty good Dutch in Emmerich for example. There's a border right through the Lille metropolitan area, where Menen is Fleming (with all the Dutch signposts) , and Tourcoing is French. In fact, there's a busy crossroad junction, and I'm sure you straddle a few metres in France to do a left turn within Menen. Don't know how they get a long. Bought a bag of fries once in Menen, ate it as I was walking, and threw the empty bag clotted with mayonaise in a French rubbish bin before crossing the road back into Menen again.


----------



## Road_UK

Road_UK said:


> I'm sure they speak each others languages. The Germans speak pretty good Dutch in Emmerich for example. There's a border right through the Lille metropolitan area, where Menen is Fleming (with all the Dutch signposts) , and Tourcoing is French. In fact, there's a busy crossroad junction, and I'm sure you straddle a few metres in France to do a left turn within Menen. Don't know how they get a long. Bought a bag of fries once in Menen, ate it as I was walking, and threw the empty bag clotted with mayonaise in a French rubbish bin before crossing the road back into Menen again.


There's also a German country road, where the houses on the side are in fact in Holland, with signs in Dutch telling you to beware of the dog...

Didn't want to quote myself, wanted to edit. Please have mercy...


----------



## Penn's Woods

Well, it goes beyond understanding the other sides' language. At least within countries, like in that Belgian example, I always look at the map and ask myself whether people really distribute themselves that neatly: would a French-speaking person moving into that area only look at houses on the French-speaking side and so on....


----------



## NordikNerd

Penn's Woods said:


> I've always wondered about places like that: does the language really change that abruptly when crossing the street or do people pick up enough of the other side's language that they can communicate.


I was in the borderarea of Aachen, Germany & Vaals/Gulpen, Holland in 2009.

In Aachen I boarded a dutch local bus to Vaals, NL. The busdriver did not speak german and I had trouble understanding her when buying tickets and asking for directions when the bus arrived in Vaals.

There is no border control in the area between Aachen and Vaals,but some flags indicate when you have come to NL. Don't remember whether I saw a sign of the border or not. Some of the dutch people in the nearby town Gulpen understood a bit of german, but they seemed annoyed when I spoke it and they respondend in dutch.


----------



## Stainless

Penn's Woods said:


> I always look at the map and ask myself whether people really distribute themselves that neatly: would a French-speaking person moving into that area only look at houses on the French-speaking side and so on....


I would imagine people would gravitate towards living in areas with similar people to themselves. Other factors may come into play though, if taxes are lower on one side, that will encourage people to move across. Likewise if things are cheaper on one side people will do their shopping there, also if wages are higher all the jobs may go to one side. I notice that areas like this can have quite an unequal distribution of certain things. As Belgium has cheaper tobacco, you are not going to sell much on the French side, same with petrol and alcohol. I remember speaking to a German who lived close to the Czech border who said that he almost never bought fuel or tobacco in Germany and loads of Czechs were working in town.


----------



## Palance

NordikNerd said:


> In Aachen I boarded a dutch local bus to Vaals, NL. The busdriver did not speak german and I had trouble understanding her when buying tickets and asking for directions when the bus arrived in Vaals.


I don't think that the German drivers speak Dutch as well - there are also local German busses driving to Vaals.
As far as I understood people could understand each other better when they speak each other's dialect.



NordikNerd said:


> There is no border control in the area between Aachen and Vaals,but some flags indicate when you have come to NL. Don't remember whether I saw a sign of the border or not.


There is (although the Dutch one is hidden)


----------



## AmoreUrbs

I guess there's not much control between the Northern Irish (UK) and Republic of Ireland (or ROI) border?


----------



## AmoreUrbs

Penn's Woods said:


> I've always wondered about places like that: does the language really change that abruptly when crossing the street or do people pick up enough of the other side's language that they can communicate. (I guess here, there's at least an international border, but there are places in Belgium where one side of a main street's officially French-speaking and the other German....)
> 
> EDIT: such as here: https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=50.660072,5.980382&spn=0.018363,0.045447&t=m&z=15


It often happens that the languages between the borders coincide..
for example, the border between Italy and France between Ventimiglia (IT) and Mentone (FR) in the Italian/French Riviera (Liguria IT-Provence FR): in Menton the historical language is a Ligurian dialect, similar to the one spoken in Ventimiglia; in the not far away Monaco, they speak another Ligurian dialect which has now been standardised: Monégasque; in Nice long time ago they used to speak Ligurian (because it was Italian), but now it is a Occitan Provençal dialect with huge influences from Ligurian (almost to be intelligible); the only problem is, that due to policies from France, few people speak those dialects, and they are educated mainly in French.. other similarities can be found in the border between Slovenia and Italy (Slovenian spoken in a few Italian towns on the border), or in South Tyrol (Alto Adige in Italian) that borders Austria, where they speak as a first language a South Tyrolese dialect (obviously very close to the Tyrol dialect spoken in Austria), and standard German, where it is an official language (alongside Italian of course)


----------



## marmurr1916

AmoreUrbs said:


> I guess there's not much control between the Northern Irish (UK) and Republic of Ireland (or ROI) border?


Correct. There are no border controls at all. The border is not marked with EU signs. The only ways you can tell by road signs that you have crossed the border are:

1. Changes to road signs:

a. directional signs are only in the English language in Northern Ireland, in the Republic of Ireland they are in English and Irish.

b. warning signs in NI are red-bordered white triangles, ROI uses yellow diamond signs.

c. speed limit signs - ROI uses km/h, NI uses miles per hour

2. Changes to road markings:

Road edges and hard shoulders are marked with a solid white line in NI. They are marked with either a broken yellow line or a solid yellow line (motorways) in ROI.

3. Changes to road numbers:

Roads in NI are numbered M (Motorway), A (A roads) and B (B roads).

Roads in ROI are numbered M (Motorway), N (National roads), R (Regional roads) and L (Local roads).

There is a Common Travel Area (a type of mini Schengen) between ROI, UK, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.

Sometimes there is almost no indication of the border:










Photograph from nicolette.dk

The section of road in the lower half of the photograph is in ROI. Look carefully to see the broken yellow lines marking the road edge.

This image hosted on flickr shows a road crossing the border between Co. Fermanagh (NI) and Co. Monaghan (ROI) The road surface in NI (bottom half of photo) is ligher than the road surface in ROI. If you enlarge the photo, you can see an 80km/h speed limit sign, indicating that this part of the road is in ROI.


----------



## AmoreUrbs

Thank you for the wide explanation marmurr1916 .. it would be nice if they at least put some EU sign (or something else) to make people understand they are passing a "technically" different country, although I know that NI and ROI have a strong feeling for each other and that may be the cause they aren't do this; of course no control is needed..


----------



## marmurr1916

AmoreUrbs said:


> Thank you for the wide explanation marmurr1916 .. it would be nice if they at least put some EU sign (or something else) to make people understand they are passing a "technically" different country, although I know that NI and ROI have a strong feeling for each other and that may be the cause they aren't do this; of course no control is needed..


There are complex historical reasons why the border is not marked with EU signs.

Many people in NI and ROI do not accept that this border should exist at all. 

Any signs indicating entry to the UK at the border would probably be destroyed. 

Signs within NI with Londonderry on them are often changed so that only Derry remains:










Image from darachmac.blogspot.com










Image from adventuring8117.blogspot.com


----------



## marmurr1916

The NI/ROI border as it used to be:

1953, 20 years before Ireland and the UK joined the EEC (now EU):










1970s, with Customs control (before the Single Market):










1980s (?), British army checkpoint on the A46 near Belleek, Co. Fermanagh:










Image by Old Monkey on Panoramio.

1990s, British army checkpoint at Annaghmartin, Co. Fermanagh, less than 1km from the border between NI/ROI:










Image by Old Monkey on Panoramio.


----------



## Eulanthe

The Northern Irish Government (I forget what the actual name is - Executive?) have been putting up Welcome to Northern Ireland signs recently, although I'm not sure if they actually are still in place.

For what it's worth, there are very occasional controls on the border. From what I've found out, they have much more focus on the ports - but as the UK and Ireland do not have a common visa policy, it's not absolutely abnormal for occasional checks to take place on the land border. 

At the air/sea border, you'll always pass some sort of immigration control - although the intensity (or lack of) does vary. 

Customs controls are a different story - I don't think I've ever heard of an instance where Customs in either Ireland or the UK have stopped an ordinary passenger car since 1993.


----------



## loxian

*Point Roberts (USA) - Tsawwassen (Canada)*

Observed from Canadian side towards USA


----------



## Skyline_

loxian said:


> *Point Roberts (USA) - Tsawwassen (Canada)*
> 
> Observed from Canadian side towards USA



How come they don't have put up some kind of fence to obstruct illegal entry?


----------



## TohrAlkimista

How the hell Tsawwassen is pronounced?


----------



## joezierer

Skyline_ said:


> How come they don't have put up some kind of fence to obstruct illegal entry?


The Canadian/US Border is really, _really_, *REALLY* long. Over 5,000 miles/8,800 kilometers.


----------



## marmurr1916

AtD said:


> Does anyone know why ROI doesn't use EU border signs?


Yes. But I can't tell you! :lol:


----------



## Skopje/Скопје

Macedonia-Kosovo border crossing


----------



## Skopje/Скопје

Border crossing to Macedonia from Kosovo



















41° 51' 23.90" N 20° 37' 10.98" E


----------



## Palance

Which crossing is that one on the latest pictures?


----------



## Alex_ZR

Palance said:


> Which crossing is that one on the latest pictures?


Rastelica - Strezimir, near the Albanian border. It's only open from May through September due to weather.


----------



## Eulanthe

Quick question : Can someone help me understand the history of two border crossings in Austria?

I'm trying to figure out how the system worked for trucks at the following border crossings - 

http://goo.gl/maps/PxQXB - Spielfeld

http://goo.gl/maps/N2dq9 - Drasenhofen

I'm asking specifically about before Slovenia/Czech Republic joined the EU. The road layout in both places is a mystery - does anyone know how a truck would proceed through the border crossings there? Did they clear customs before the passport control, or what?


----------



## italystf

Why there's the Slovenian flag there (A-I border)?
https://maps.google.it/maps?q=udine...d=QFQ6KdNkkD7YXDGpEGRl2w&cbp=12,21.01,,0,8.31


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^The Slovenians are as bad as the Dutch. :jk: 

From the road trips thread:



piotr71 said:


> Back to Hungary.
> 
> ....
> 
> Are Dutch really everywhere?


----------



## LMB

Eulanthe said:


> Quick question : Can someone help me understand the history of two border crossings in Austria?
> 
> 
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/N2dq9 - Drasenhofen
> 
> I'm asking specifically about before Slovenia/Czech Republic joined the EU. The road layout in both places is a mystery - does anyone know how a truck would proceed through the border crossings there? Did they clear customs before the passport control, or what?


I did Drasenhofen in 1992 - not sure what exactly you're asking?


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Why there's the Slovenian flag there (A-I border)?
> https://maps.google.it/maps?q=udine...d=QFQ6KdNkkD7YXDGpEGRl2w&cbp=12,21.01,,0,8.31


Yeah, I noticed that when I drove there. :lol: Slovenia is close, but there's no Austrian flag at Rateče/Fusine Laghi, nor Italian at Korensko sedlo/Wurzenpass.


----------



## cinxxx

Speaking of it, how close can you get with a car to the Tripoint of A/SLO/I?


----------



## Verso

cinxxx said:


> Speaking of it, how close can you get with a car to the Tripoint of A/SLO/I?


You can see a map here (blue = by car, yellow = on foot).

There seems to be a road from the Austrian side as well.


----------



## Alex_ZR

When I was in Kranjska Gora I was thinking of visiting tripoint but I changed my mind since I wasn't sure that I could climb there by my car...


----------



## Eulanthe

LMB said:


> I did Drasenhofen in 1992 - not sure what exactly you're asking?


I'm trying to work out how trucks proceeded through the border crossings - normally, most border crossings for trucks have the passport/weight control first, then a large parking area for trucks to clear customs. But in the case of Drasenhofen, there are only large areas on the west side - I'm trying to work out how trucks would drive through there.

You can see on the aerial maps that I linked to that there's no "obvious" route through the border station unlike at most border crossings. That's why I'm wondering if it was remodelled/etc at some point.

For what it's worth, what's the story with Mikoluv? That station seemed far, far too small to cope with being an external border of the EU. It doesn't seem to have much in the way of truck parking - does anyone know?


----------



## Zagor666

Czech Republic to Germany(Hranice-Ebmath) :cheers:



Germany to Czech Republic(Oberwiesenthal-Loučna) Pedestrian only :cheers:


----------



## Skopje/Скопје

It's not a border crossing, but it's a border sign between Macedonia and Albania. The thing is that on the stone is written SFRJ in Cyrillic (SFRJ means Socialistic Federal Republic of Yugoslavia). 22 years after the disintegration of Yugoslavia, this border stone hasn't been changed. :nuts:










picture by Mário Duchoň


----------



## Skopje/Скопје

Border crossing Medzitlija between Greece and Macedonia


----------



## Autobahn-mann

Skopje/Скопје;106543047 said:


> It's not a border crossing, but it's a border sign between Macedonia and Albania. The thing is that on the stone is written SFRJ in Cyrillic (SFRJ means Socialistic Federal Republic of Yugoslavia). 22 years after the disintegration of Yugoslavia, this border stone hasn't been changed. :nuts:
> 
> picture by Mário Duchoň


 The border of Italy is signed with stone where there is wrote "Kingdom of Italy" (!) and in the mountain near where I live there is still also border stone with the old border with Austria-Hungary!! (and some Venetian Republic!!)


----------



## KingGenti

Albania-Republic of Kosova border @Morinë.


----------



## KingGenti

The recent crossing border between Albania&Greece in Qafë Botë,Sarandë.


----------



## MattiG

OriK said:


> ^^ There are some areas in the EU not belonging to the customs union. Maybe that's the case...
> 
> It also might have something to do with the regulations on free ports...
> 
> It might be also the tax for the use of the port.


Most people just do not understand the EU taxation system. The most important reason behind the misunderstanding is the procedure related to the products the passengers are carrying across the borders. It is an exception to the basic principle.

A common misconception is that the EU is "tax free". A better summary is "the imported products must be treated equally to the domestic ones".

Most (but not all) of the EU is covered by the EU Customs Union. No product crossing the internal borders of the Customs Union is subject to customs duties. Simple is that.

Then there is the EU VAT Area. The basic principle is that the VAT is payable to the country where the product is finally given to the consumer. The procedures around the VAT are rather complex. Basically, the import and export done by companies is tax-free, and the target country does the VAT collection. There is a refunding system for those exported products already containing VAT.

A third element is the Excise Tax. It usually applies to alcohol, tobacco, fuels, etc. Like the VAT, the ET is payable to the country where the product is given to the consumer. The ET of the imported goods is typically collected "at the border" by the local customs. (The actual customs office may be located inland, far from the border.) 

Attempts to establish general border taxes (like x% of the goods value) will be killed by the EU, sooner or later.

In order to reduce the bureaucracy related to minor things, there are exceptions to these basic rules. For the consumers, the following ones apply:

- The products imported by travellers are "tax free" at the internal borders if the products are for personal use. Being "tax free" does not mean to be free of taxes but the VAT and the ET being paid to country of the purchase.

- The mail orders are treated similarly to the traveller import what comes to the VAT: The VAT is payable to the country of purchase. However, if the sales volumes of the vendor are not minor, the VAT is payable to target country according to basic procedure. The mail orders are *not *free from the excise taxes. If the ET is high for some products (like alcohol in Finland), the country may create complex procedures to prevent the tax leakage from happening, and it is allowed to do so.


----------



## cinxxx

Here's another tripoint for you, between Austria/Switzerland/Liechtenstein. The actual spot is on the river Rhine, but I had crossed from each of the 3 countries to the other that day. There are actually 2 tripoints between the 3 countries, I only visited the one on the West of FL, the one Eastwards is actually atop of a mountain









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/49240183









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/68681803

So here are my pics. This is in Austria, after crossing the bridge from Switzerland









This is the CH custom house









And the whole bridge









And here is the land border between A and FL, while CH is over the river


















Some 100m north is a cycle and walking road


----------



## Skopje/Скопје

Another picture of the border crossing Medzitlija between Greece and Macedonia. This is the Macedonian part of the crossing.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Children from two villages of Neštin and Vizić in Serbia attend 5th-8th grades of elementary school in the town of Bačka Palanka. Nearest way is across the bridge on the Danube, but they have to cross Croatian territory on their way to school. Children usually change two or three passports a year, since they are full of passport stamps of these border crossings [Neštin(SRB)-Ilok(HR) and Ilok(HR)-Bačka Palanka(SRB)]:






http://goo.gl/maps/fWSeR


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Sounds a lot like Portuguese.


----------



## Skyline_

DanielFigFoz said:


> Sounds a lot like Portuguese.


Serbo-Croatian sounds like Portuguese? :nuts:


----------



## VITORIA MAN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0uanqWgInk
maybe is for the "s" pronuntation


----------



## Singidunum

~50kms queue (10 hours) from Bulgaria into Serbia thanks to Turkish gastarbeiters


----------



## Verso

Until Sofia?


----------



## Singidunum

That's what they say. Other news mentioned Slivnitsa.


----------



## Singidunum

In the past 24h 100.000 passengers crossed into Serbia from Bulgaria through Gradina border crossing.

The wave has now reached Batrovci and Horgoš crossings with Croatia and Hungary where the waiting times are 4 and 3 hours respectively.


----------



## bogdymol

I just met with a bulgarian friend that is now driving from BG to Germany. He took the route through Romania to avoid the large queues at the BG-SRB border, but he told me that he waited 2.5 hours to cross the Danube bridge at Vidin-Calafat (BG-RO).


----------



## Singidunum

Lol probably he wasn't the only one with that idea.

He should have went to some other crossing between Serbia and Bulgaria but it is a detour of about 350km from the motorway.


----------



## bogdymol

We worked together in Romania, so it was nice for him to see again this places while passing-by.


----------



## Singidunum

There's Google Street View for that :troll:


----------



## bogdymol

We changed the landscape / road system in this area together... so Street View is not up to date :troll:


----------



## bozenBDJ

^^ Ofcourse they arent always up-to-date! :doh:


----------



## Road_UK

bogdymol said:


> We changed the landscape / road system in this area together... so Street View is not up to date :troll:


What did you do that for?


----------



## bogdymol

Road_UK said:


> What did you do that for?


For money. This is what construction engineers do. Build new roads... buildings etc.


----------



## Road_UK

You must be earning a lot then. I didn't know you were a builder


----------



## Road_UK

italystf said:


> It's not possible to have a sort of "transit permit" to pass through a non-EU country on the way between two EU countries with a truck or van full of goods?


Yes. And guess where you get that permit. These are the T2 forms, and everything has to be written down on it, validated by clearance agencies and stamped by customs. On both sides of the border!


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> Yes. And guess where you get that permit. These are the T2 forms, and everything has to be written down on it, validated by clearance agencies and stamped by customs. On both sides of the border!


I guess it's quite time-consuming. I've heard that good vehicles often wait 2-3 days in queue at the border between EU and Russia-Ukraine-Belarus. Have you ever experienced it?


----------



## TurboEngine

Skyline_ said:


> Eat your heart out for Romania and Bulgaria will join the Schengen Area in 2014. (At worst in 2015).:bash:


Why would I eat my heart out? I'm from Bulgaria and want to join Schengen :nuts:


----------



## Road_UK

italystf said:


> I guess it's quite time-consuming. I've heard that good vehicles often wait 2-3 days in queue at the border between EU and Russia-Ukraine-Belarus. Have you ever experienced it?


No, I've never been that way. I find the queues with lorries on the Swiss borders long enough. Me sitting in my van between those biggons... And then still having to find a place to park on these big lorry parks is a nightmare. Before Schengen going into Poland etc I just mingled with the tourists...


----------



## OulaL

Road_UK said:


> When I went to Mo-i-Rana I crossed the border right at the top, but there were no clearance facilities or customs.


You took the E12 to Mo i Rana? There is a customs facility, but it is located in Tärnaby, 74 km of the border. It's pretty easy to miss, especially since you don't expect one this far of the border:

https://maps.google.fi/maps?saddr=E...6Lrx_mCXDDGgGXgcKb1CBw&cbp=12,268.61,,0,16.39


----------



## Road_UK

Yes, I've definitely missed that one. It probably would have been closed anyway as it was Sunday. I was going to stay the night on the border, but as there was nothing there I just kept going and stayed in a Best Western hotel in Mo, and cleared it on my way back on the E6...


----------



## Corvinus

Hungary, main road 84 after Sopron, Austrian border visible in the background.

Photo taken in Aug 2013. This time, both Hungarian and Austrian police were observing crossing traffic from their cars.


----------



## NordikNerd

SWE-FIN border at Haparanda. Passing through traffic is less than 1000 vehicles a day at this border.

I comparison the SWE-DK border at the bridge has 19.500 vehicles och 72.000 persons passing through a day.


----------



## MrAkumana

NordikNerd said:


> SWE-FIN border at Haparanda. Passing through traffic is less than 1000 vehicles a day at this border.
> 
> I comparison the SWE-DK border at the bridge has 19.500 vehicles och 72.000 persons passing through a day.


It sounds like too little... I have been there this last Saturday eating at a Shopping Center on the finnish side that is right on the border and overlooks that border crossing of the main road. From the window of the restaurant I saw at least 100 vehicles went by in just in 20 mins. 

Moreover the counting could be a bit tricky if it's done just on that road, as Tornio - Haparanda are kind of a divided city and there's a second road/street full of traffic (one that goes straight to an Ikea located almost at the border) just 300 mts away from the one on pic. And there's a also a third road/street to the north.

By the way: every border crossing on Finland -no matter how small- has cameras recording every car. There will be people happy about that, but since I can't be sure how the information gathered it's actually used by the goverment I find it a bit disturbing...


----------



## italystf

Corvinus said:


> Hungary, main road 84 after Sopron, Austrian border visible in the background.
> 
> Photo taken in Aug 2013. This time, both Hungarian and Austrian police were observing crossing traffic from their cars.


This is the place of the Pan-European picnic, when, in August 1989 the first breach on the iron curtain was made. For the first time since 1961, East German were allowed to flee west via CZ, H and A.


----------



## Road_UK

OulaL said:


> You took the E12 to Mo i Rana? There is a customs facility, but it is located in Tärnaby, 74 km of the border. It's pretty easy to miss, especially since you don't expect one this far of the border:
> 
> https://maps.google.fi/maps?saddr=E12&daddr=bl%C3%A5+v%C3%A4gen+32,+t%C3%A4rnaby&hl=fi&ie=UTF8&ll=65.710828,15.249753&spn=0.005261,0.021136&sll=66.038104,14.694214&sspn=0.664833,2.705383&geocode=FRkj8QMd_qreAA%3BFSWr6gMd2qroACmfdvdS3vJ2RjHHJ1_C2Ny_-Q&mra=dme&mrsp=0&sz=9&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=65.710846,15.24995&panoid=6Lrx_mCXDDGgGXgcKb1CBw&cbp=12,268.61,,0,16.39


Question: does Norwegian customs also hold an office in there? I would have needed them for my entry stamp. Swedish customs wouldn't have been that important as I already got an outgoing UK stamp anyway... 

Delivering in Oslo at Kühne and Nagel is a lot easier. Apart from the procedure in Dover declaring outgoing goods, in Oslo they do all the clearing for me. 

One time I had this order on my van from a UK haulage company. I had about 6 addresses to go in Switzerland. One in Basel, one in Schaffhausen, a couple in Zürich and somethi for Lausanne. Got all the paperwork, cleared everything at Basel, and delivered everything ok until I got to Lausanne. There ii found out I had some boxes unaccounted for. No paperwork, not even an address, and therefore it entered Switzerland illegally. Obviously I wouldn't have been able to leave the country with those boxes. My boss told me to hang on a couple of hours and in the worst scenario just chuck them in the river. Eventually I dropped them off at a warehouse in Geneva, where they did all the clearing.


----------



## Ingenioren

^ Quick look at NVDB maps says it has 4000-8000 aadt on the E4 Happaranda Tornio border.

Norwegian customs office for E12 is located in Mo I Rana.

When RO and BG enters Schengen it should be time to demolish that border fence no?
https://maps.google.com/?ll=44.0883...=tnv7B053gx1mu4-sZn_-vw&cbp=12,348.31,,0,2.76


----------



## volodaaaa

Ingenioren said:


> ^ Quick look at NVDB maps says it has 4000-8000 aadt on the E4 Happaranda Tornio border.
> 
> Norwegian customs office for E12 is located in Mo I Rana.
> 
> When RO and BG enters Schengen it should be time to demolish that border fence no?
> https://maps.google.com/?ll=44.0883...=tnv7B053gx1mu4-sZn_-vw&cbp=12,348.31,,0,2.76


I have been always wondering why is Bulgaria fenced by this barbed-wire? It is like relict from cold war times


----------



## cinxxx

^^But you also have these:
http://goo.gl/maps/l6dcI
http://goo.gl/maps/3kJbw


----------



## volodaaaa

cinxxx said:


> ^^But you also have these:
> http://goo.gl/maps/l6dcI
> http://goo.gl/maps/3kJbw


What does the last one suppose to be? Border crossing prepared for Schengen joint? The road seems to be in very good condition.


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Yep. But I think they over-reacted with so many lanes on the romanian side. FFS... it's a DC road, which is the last in importance in Romania (DC = drum comunal, local road).


----------



## volodaaaa

bogdymol said:


> ^^ Yep. But I think they over-reacted with so many lanes on the romanian side. FFS... it's a DC road, which is the last in importance in Romania (DC = drum comunal, local road).


The increased number of lanes imply the preparation for checking booths what is obviously in contradiction with Schengen agreement. 

I do not see any else purpose to increase number of lanes in such place.


----------



## OulaL

Road_UK said:


> Question: does Norwegian customs also hold an office in there? I would have needed them for my entry stamp. Swedish customs wouldn't have been that important as I already got an outgoing UK stamp anyway...


According to Google maps they do: scroll a little onward from the place of the link above and you'll see the actual customs building.

https://maps.google.fi/maps?saddr=E...1x_0MYRG8UiOi3d1w&cbp=12,317.29,,2,-2.39&z=16

Zoom in and you'll see the Norwegian coat of arms, along with the Norwegian spelling "Toll". ("Tull" is Swedish.)

That's all I know. I've never transported anything here so I've never really been in any business with the customs of either state, just driven by.


----------



## Skyline_

TurboEngine said:


> Why would I eat my heart out? I'm from Bulgaria and want to join Schengen :nuts:


You said it won't happen... Read your own posts...hno:


----------



## Road_UK

Skyline_ said:


> You said it won't happen... Read your own posts...hno:


What's with you and your hno: all the time? You seem to think that you're the only intellect around here and all others have just crawled from underneath the bench...


----------



## Alex_ZR

volodaaaa said:


> ^^
> Is not Hungary called "Magyarország" officially since 2012? Btw. great photos


Maybe that photo was taken before 2012, we don't know.


----------



## italystf

Wiener.Blut said:


> AT - D


Was the A-D border changed in 1959?


----------



## OulaL

Wiener.Blut said:


>


Is the signposted time limit still legal? After all Austria signed the Schengen agreement in 1995, 12 years before the picture was taken.


----------



## javimix19

This columns were a symbol of Spain and it's frontier in Irun-Hendaye.


----------



## Wiener.Blut

*I will represent Austrian -Hungarian border crossings from northernmost tripoint with Slovakia, to southernmost tripoint with Slovenia.*

Lets go...

Tripoint (AT-HU-SK)










Panoramic photo.
Tripoint (AT-HU-SK) sculpture park 

We can see Bratislava in the distance


----------



## Wiener.Blut

Andau / Jánossomorja



















Border in the middle of the road










Halbturn- Albertkázmérpuszta

Ancient Roman road between Vienna and Budapest.














































Deutsch Jahrndorf - Rajka


----------



## Sisimoto the HUN

TurboEngine said:


> ^^
> 
> There was a village cut off for decades and people had to travel hundreds of kms to go to the other side. I think later they opened a crossing there. I forgot the name.
> 
> EDIT:


Not only one village in the carpathian basin,if you wanna know..Shame on the western states who drawn the lines on the map to artificially separate a nation..


----------



## Wiener.Blut

Lutzmannsburg




















Kőszeg-Rattersdorf


----------



## Wiener.Blut

Rechnitz -Bozsok


----------



## Wiener.Blut

Bucsu-Schachendorf


----------



## Wiener.Blut

Bildein











Szentpéterfa-Eberau










Pinkamindszent - Moshendorf,


----------



## Wiener.Blut

Heiligenbrunn am Pinkatal - Pinkamindszent


----------



## Wiener.Blut

Route from Mogersdorf to Szentgotthárd,



















Fertőrákos - Mörbisch 



















Mörbisch am See










Pamhagen - Fertő


----------



## Wiener.Blut

The triple Border monument... H-A-SLO


----------



## JackFrost

^^hungary and its secondary roads and road markings...  hno:

nice pics by the way.


----------



## Wiener.Blut

^^yes secondary roads in Hungary are very bad


----------



## Sisimoto the HUN

Jack_Frost said:


> ^^hungary and its secondary roads and road markings...  hno:
> 
> nice pics by the way.


Again constructive criticism..But in the same way its sounds a bit pitying..hno:
There is a particular reason for the bad quality of the secondary roads and the road infrastructure as a whole..
Like the 44 years Hungary spent in the grasp of the soviets and behind the iron curtain..As Austria and rest of the western countries have the luck to live,prosper and develop free after the WWII(with the financial help from the USA as well).
Hungary has a huge,44+ years of disadvantage in 1989, compared to the free and developed western countries!Still we have much to compensate! 
An astronomical sum of money we should spend on the whole road system to catch up! And believe me,there are other more important things to spend that money. Secondary roads are not that important.
I don't expect from anybody to understand,what the freedom means or how hard to catch up,but at least be bit polite and patient. Thank you.


----------



## SeanT

I do understand. Just one story. During the early ´50s, Austria had a rough time as well and see now, see the difference. YES, I do dare to say that the V4 countries have a 40-45 years of disadvantage because of commmunisme!!! Try to immagine Vienna after 45 years of communisme at the end of the ´80s..... you can not, but go figure....I can! I´m sure that all PL,CZ,Sk,H countries can too!


----------



## Road_UK

Sisimoto the HUN said:


> Again constructive criticism..But in the same way its sounds a bit pitying..hno:
> There is a particular reason for the bad quality of the secondary roads and the road infrastructure as a whole..
> Like the 44 years Hungary spent in the grasp of the soviets and behind the iron curtain..As Austria and rest of the western countries have the luck to live,prosper and develop free after the WWII(with the financial help from the USA as well).
> Hungary has a huge,44+ years of disadvantage in 1989, compared to the free and developed western countries!Still we have much to compensate!
> An astronomical sum of money we should spend on the whole road system to catch up! And believe me,there are other more important things to spend that money. Secondary roads are not that important.
> I don't expect from anybody to understand,what the freedom means or how hard to catch up,but at least be bit polite and patient. Thank you.


You feel attacked and strained because someone gave a minor negative comment about these stupid markings on that secondary road in your country? That has nothing to do with you having to catch up on anything due to communist oppression. It's plain clumsiness with the old paint brush. Your motorways are fine. Better than in Belgium.


----------



## Laurentzius

Sisimoto the HUN said:


> I don't expect from anybody to understand,what the freedom means or how hard to catch up,but at least be bit polite and patient. Thank you.


----------



## SeanT

Not at all. All Xcommunist countries have their own problems regardless communisme, but the communist time is like "not that bad" attitude today.
Let me tell everyone! Yes, it is that BAD!
It is not one country, but every single one which had tasted the "sweetness" of communisme!.....have problems which western countries do not have! No more comments in this issue from here!


----------



## Wiener.Blut

Sisimoto the HUN said:


> Again constructive criticism..But in the same way its sounds a bit pitying..hno:
> There is a particular reason for the bad quality of the secondary roads and the road infrastructure as a whole..
> Like the 44 years Hungary spent in the grasp of the soviets and behind the iron curtain..As Austria and rest of the western countries have the luck to live,prosper and develop free after the WWII(with the financial help from the USA as well).
> Hungary has a huge,44+ years of disadvantage in 1989, compared to the free and developed western countries!Still we have much to compensate!
> An astronomical sum of money we should spend on the whole road system to catch up! And believe me,there are other more important things to spend that money. Secondary roads are not that important.
> I don't expect from anybody to understand,what the freedom means or how hard to catch up,but at least be bit polite and patient. Thank you.


yes, Soviets are guilty you have bad roads :bash: come on people take responsibility for the sh... you have done.


----------



## JackFrost

^^ok, lets be fair, the soviets are responsible for most of the shitty things in hungary. but still, its no excuse for not putting paint on the road. thats just carelessness, nothing more.

anyway, sorry for making fun of the magnificent hungarian secondary roads. 

go on.


----------



## zsimi80

"anyway, sorry for making fun of the magnificent hungarian secondary roads. "


You are not funny.


----------



## Corvinus

Wiener.Blut said:


> yes, Soviets are guilty you have bad roads :bash: comm on people take responsibility for the sh... you have done.


Soviet-Commie occupation and forced Socialist "economy" (ignoring basic economical laws) are mainly responsible for the economic situation resulting in this quality of infrastructure.

Hungary's motorway tolls are twice that of Austria, taking network length into account? It's sort of paying off afterwards the debts of 40 years of Socialist regime.


----------



## Road_UK

Corvinus said:


> Soviet-Commie occupation and forced Socialist "economy" (ignoring basic economical laws) are mainly responsible for the economic situation resulting in this quality of infrastructure.
> 
> Hungary's motorway tolls are twice that of Austria, taking network length into account? It's sort of paying off afterwards the debts of 40 years of Socialist regime.


I disagree. A lot of road projects in the East are being funded by the EU. And you pay a lot more in France. If Poland, Slovenia or the Czech Republic can do it, so can Hungary. Stop blaming your own little errors on the Soviets. Your motorways are fine


----------



## volodaaaa

Corvinus said:


> Soviet-Commie occupation and forced Socialist "economy" (ignoring basic economical laws) are mainly responsible for the economic situation resulting in this quality of infrastructure.
> 
> Hungary's motorway tolls are twice that of Austria, taking network length into account? It's sort of paying off afterwards the debts of 40 years of Socialist regime.


What is wrong with Hungarian motorways? Basically, Hungary has one of the most quality roads in former East.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Hey, I enjoy the occasional good off-topic as much as the next person, but....


----------



## Wiener.Blut

Corvinus said:


> *Soviet-Commie occupation* and forced Socialist "economy" (ignoring basic economical laws) are mainly responsible for the economic situation resulting in this quality of infrastructure.
> 
> Hungary's motorway tolls are twice that of Austria, taking network length into account? It's sort of paying off afterwards the debts of 40 years of Socialist regime.


BS, excuses. Hungary was governed from Hungarians, same as now and it has been more than 20 years since there is no Soviet Union and "occupation".


----------



## and802

@Wiener.Blut, 

I do not think you have a clear idea what you are talking about, first talk to your grandpas how Austria/Vienna had been governed by Sobiets first months after the end of the war. you see, Hungarians were not as much lucky as Austrians, Austria was left by Soviets in 1955, Hungary got real independence in 1990

you may also state that DDR (or East Germany) was govrened by Germans, but I can hardly remember they built highways during that period. once re-unification came into real (1991) almost all factories (state-ruled that time) backrupted. hmmm , why the hell it happened ? obviously, Germans are known as well organized people. so why ?


this is not a thread for history-shameless members, so lets get back to the subject. personally as a guy from Poland I am very impressed with the hungarian motorway infrastructure.


----------



## Wiener.Blut

And Austrians were occupied from Germans in Anschluss.


----------



## MichiH

and802 said:


> you may also state that DDR (or East Germany) was govrened by Germans, but I can hardly remember they built highways during that period.


They built about *500km*. They completed the A10 _Berlin_ beltway and the A14 _Halle_-_Dresden_. They built the entire A24 to _Hamburg_, the A19 to _Rostock_, the _Berlin_ distributor Autobahns A111, A113 and A114 as well as a part of the A241 near _Schwerin_ (source - list of Autobahn openings 1936-1986 in former DDR territory).

Just to clarify that false argument. Please back to topic!


----------



## Sisimoto the HUN

Road_UK said:


> You feel attacked and strained because someone gave a minor negative comment about these stupid markings on that secondary road in your country? That has nothing to do with you having to catch up on anything due to communist oppression. It's plain clumsiness with the old paint brush. Your motorways are fine. Better than in Belgium.


Who talked about Hungarian motorways? Who complain? :nono:


----------



## Sisimoto the HUN

Wiener.Blut said:


> yes, Soviets are guilty you have bad roads :bash: come on people take responsibility for the sh... you have done.
> 
> -Hungary was governed from Hungarians..
> 
> -Austrians were occupied from Germans in Anschluss...


icard:


----------



## Penn's Woods

opcorn:


----------



## Verso

Europe is so exciting.


----------



## TedStriker

Just don't mention the war.


----------



## Skyline_

WAR WAR WAR WAR


----------



## bogdymol

^^
:siren: :siren: :siren: :siren: :siren: :siren: :siren: :siren: :siren: :siren: :siren: :siren: 










:siren: :siren: :siren: :siren: :siren: :siren: :siren: :siren: :siren: :siren: :siren: :siren:


----------



## Road_UK

Why am I not surprised... He's probably the antichrist himself. Had an argument with him a week ago. He wants to ban all religions.


----------



## volodaaaa

During my last visit in Budapest, I have compared the old-town feeling of Bratislava and Budapest. It is really true, that Hungarians resisted common Soviet-type-socialism a little bit more. I have seen only few communist building there. Majority of building were those build during Austria-Hungary. In Bratislava, the situation is much different. We had beautiful old town, full of beautiful old building, but during communism, Czechoslovakian government, which were seemingly much more subordinated to USSR than Hungarian on, decided to demolish old town at expense of new brutalist-style buildings.


----------



## Road_UK

volodaaaa said:


> During my last visit in Budapest, I have compared the old-town feeling of Bratislava and Budapest. It is really true, that Hungarians resisted common Soviet-type-socialism a little bit more. I have seen only few communist building there. Majority of building were those build during Austria-Hungary. In Bratislava, the situation is much different. We had beautiful old town, full of beautiful old building, but during communism, Czechoslovakian government, which were seemingly much more subordinated to USSR than Hungarian on, decided to demolish old town at expense of new brutalist-style buildings.


I love what they have done with some of these buildings in Bratislava. That area along the Austrian border is actually visible from the countryside of Burgenland, and it looks very modern.


----------



## volodaaaa

Road_UK said:


> I love what they have done with some of these buildings in Bratislava. That area along the Austrian border is actually visible from the countryside of Burgenland, and it looks very modern.


Some looks modern, but lot of them are in very bad condition. Sometimes, the local government decide to put an advertisement on them which looks even worse. The new building may look modern, but they are just giant glass cubes - nothing else. Budapest seemed much more untouched by communists than Bratislava during my last visit.

The worst are Slovak National Gallery and Shopping centre and Hotel Kiev.


----------



## italystf

Corvinus said:


> Without this historical period, present Hungarian secondary network would have the level of say France, Belgium or even close to Austria.


We never had communism and still many of our rural small roads lack of markings and have potholes... And I guess it isn't much different in Portugal, Spain or Greece.



Verso said:


> Well, Vienna's location did suck back then. Not to mention West Berlin.


How was the situation of Austria between 1945 and 1955? Were people allowed to travel freely between different sectors? Were people living in the Soviet zone subjected to an actual communist regime (no freedom of speech, no free market,...)?



Wiener.Blut said:


> And now Hungary is occupide by EU, you have changed one "occupation" to another and that is the main reasons why secondary roads in Hungary are still bad.
> This is hit... sorry but I cant believe you haver just said that. There is a appropriate saying for this.


In those days it seems that Hungary is the EU country less subjected to the EU "occupation" and the only who has the courage to oppose (although some newly-introduced laws seem a bit in contrast with democratic principes).


----------



## Wiener.Blut

volodaaaa said:


> Some looks modern, but lot of them are in very bad condition. Sometimes, the local government decide to put an advertisement on them which looks even worse. The new building may look modern, but they are just giant glass cubes - nothing else. Budapest seemed much more untouched by communists than Bratislava during my last visit.
> 
> The worst are Slovak National Gallery and Shopping centre and Hotel Kiev.


comparing Bratislava and Budapest is just nonsense, Budapest was very well built before communism, while Bratislava was small provincial town. During communism Bratislava grew from small provincial town to medium town, while Budapest didn't change a lot. Communist built, but not in the city centre, because the centre was more or less "finished", but around the centre you can see a lot of "Petrzalkas" in Budapest as well. 

http://goo.gl/maps/gBjyG
http://goo.gl/maps/u0TQC

etc.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> How was the situation of Austria between 1945 and 1955? Were people allowed to travel freely between different sectors? Were people living in the Soviet zone subjected to an actual communist regime (no freedom of speech, no free market,...)?


I don't know, but it was probably even worse than in neighboring Yugoslavia between 1948 and 1955.


----------



## Redouane

Morocco - Mauritania border:


----------



## alserrod

Is Spanish still used or known by Western Sahara population?

Quite strange to see there a signal in several languages incluiding Spanish but not English.

BTW, French and Spanich texts do not match. Spanish sentence just say "attention, police".


----------



## Redouane

alserrod said:


> Is Spanish still used or known by Western Sahara population?
> 
> Quite strange to see there a signal in several languages incluiding Spanish but not English.
> 
> BTW, French and Spanich texts do not match. Spanish sentence just say "attention, police".


True, and the French sign says: Slow Down, Police. Those sign's are the same everywhere in Morocco by the way. Every stop sign for Police/Gendarmerie say's it in Arabic, Spanish and French.


----------



## Redouane

Morocco - Spain border (Melilla)








Took this picture last summer, it's between the Moroccan Douane and the Spanish Douane. Where you have to wait for the douane to put a stamp on the little green paper of your car and of yourself, confirming that you're leaving the country. 

If you don't know what i mean here is a picture of the paper for the car:


----------



## Wiener.Blut

Verso said:


> I don't know, but it was probably even worse than in neighboring Yugoslavia between 1948 and 1955.


You should watch film "The third man" situation of despair and lawlessness in after war Austria e.g. Vienna has been described very well.


----------



## Zagor666

Germany-Austria Ursprungpass :cheers:



Slovenija-Italy Mangart :cheers:


----------



## VITORIA MAN

le perthus , spanish border xix century








spanish police


----------



## Verso

Zagor666 said:


> Slovenija-Italy Mangart :cheers:


Behind you:









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13750148


----------



## Zagor666

yeah,thats the very fast way to get into italy :colgate:


----------



## volodaaaa

report about border crossings in socialist Czechoslovakia. Note the old hungarian and polish licence plates.


----------



## Alex_ZR

^^ There's one Zastava 101 with Yugoslav plates (ZG?) at 3:51.


----------



## volodaaaa

Alex_ZR said:


> ^^ There's one Zastava 101 with Yugoslav plates (ZG?) at 3:51.


Wow, I have not noticed it before. They are definitely Yugoslav, but I think it is rather ZD - Zadar (HR)


----------



## Redouane

Tunisia - Libya border:

(I know it's a crappy picture but it's the only one i could find..)


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## piotr71

volodaaaa said:


> report about border crossings in socialist Czechoslovakia. Note the old hungarian and polish licence plates.


Really funny, particularly for all, who remember these good old days. Those Polish "tourists" were a little confused when asked about souvenirs brought from Czechoslovakia , however they actually could mention some CS attractions.


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## volodaaaa

Border crossing Petržalka/Berg (Czechoslovakia-Austria) one year after fall of communism.

Note the huge waiting queues. This video will be suitable to "driving videos" topic as well. I am not an author.






The same border crossing today: click here

I have been crossing that border many times during EU times before Slovakia joint to Schengen area and the checks were rather ridiculous than serious. Austrian and Slovak policemen were sitting boringly and seemed like "Okay, hi and don't disturb me, just go"


----------



## hofburg

I have also crossed there, after Schengen


----------



## Sisimoto the HUN

Israel-Lebanon coastal border - Rosh hanikra! 
Crossing point, lookout, restaurant, funicular transport to the sea level caves, historic railroad tunnel, all at the same site!


----------



## piotr71

hofburg said:


> I have also crossed there, after Schengen


It was 1990 (I think) when I first visited Western Europe and it had happened in Petrzalka. On the other side of recently opened iron curtain, I sat and drunk beer in very crowded inn in Wolfsthal and had had pretty nice chat with a cute waitress. Conversation had lasted until I mentioned which country I was coming from


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## Wiener.Blut

Lauenburg - Horst


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## Palance

Sisimoto the HUN said:


> Israel-Lebanon coastal border - Rosh hanikra!
> Crossing point, lookout, restaurant, funicular transport to the sea level caves, historic railroad tunnel, all at the same site!


That crossing is still closed, right? I suppose you can't go all the way until the border itself?


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## bogdymol

Crossing the *San Marino - Italy border*:


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## Eulanthe

volodaaaa said:


> I have been crossing that border many times during EU times before Slovakia joint to Schengen area and the checks were rather ridiculous than serious. Austrian and Slovak policemen were sitting boringly and seemed like "Okay, hi and don't disturb me, just go"


I think it was rather the same on most of the 2004-2007 borders - I've done some research on the attitudes of the border police in that period, and the general impression I've got is that the checks were mostly a complete waste of time. 

I asked quite a lot of people in Frankfurt Oder/Slubice as to the attitudes of the police - and only one person reported being refused entry to the 'other' country after 2004. The reason? He was so drunk (at the city bridge crossing) that he had to hold himself up against the old passport control booths inside the administrative buildings - so they told him to come back when he could stand properly. 

Does anyone know how seriously the CZ/SK border was controlled (especially away from the major crossings) from 1993-2004?


----------



## cinxxx

^^it's the same more or less on RO/H border...


----------



## Theijs

Eulanthe said:


> Does anyone know how seriously the CZ/SK border was controlled (especially away from the major crossings) from 1993-2004?


Yes it was. I took in April 2004 a bus Prague-Bratislava and it was checked, received passport stamps etc. And the Slovak police checked the speed on the bridge in nomansland between the two border crossings :/


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## volodaaaa

Eulanthe said:


> Does anyone know how seriously the CZ/SK border was controlled (especially away from the major crossings) from 1993-2004?


Very seriously. I remember I crossed that border in 1996 and the Czech policemen ordered to park aside and unload whole German car standing in front of us.



Theijs said:


> And the Slovak police checked the speed on the bridge in nomansland between the two border crossings :/


The speciality of the Slovak police:gunz:


----------



## vatse

*Border of Brazil and Guyana* between Bonfim and Lethem

Brazilian border post









change of traffic from right to left


















Guyana border post


















from http://tarmotamming.blogspot.com


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## Verso

^ Speed limit 30 km/h? :sleepy:


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## Sisimoto the HUN

There is a rum commercial ad on the side of an official sign, asking for drive carefully and keep the speed limit? Serious!


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## Fatfield

^^^^

I can't speak for Guyana but in Barbados there's no law against drink/drunk driving per se. Basically, as long as you don't kill anyone whilst under the influence you're OK.


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## italystf

Maybe the sign was sponsorized by the rhum company that wanted to express the message: "we advertise our alchool but also suggest people to be prudent".


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## vatse

And when you are drinking rum you better keep the speed under 30 km/h


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## Sisimoto the HUN

italystf said:


> Maybe the sign was sponsorized by the rhum company that wanted to express the message: "we advertise our alchool but also suggest people to be prudent".


That case they should add : responsibly drink and meanwhile do not drive! Not even 30km/h..


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## Verso

It says Please Drink Responsibly in the lower left corner.


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## Redouane

Border Between Morocco and the Spanish Eclave of Ceuta (Sebta):


----------



## Sisimoto the HUN

Verso said:


> It says Please Drink Responsibly in the lower left corner.


I saw that..Thats why i added: responsibly drink and* meanwhile do not drive!* Not even 30km/h..


----------



## szehoong

Here's something different from the EU borders.... 

The Malaysia-Singapore border crossings. There are two crossings, 1st and the oldest is the Johor-Singapore Causeway which was built and completed in 1923 between the city of Johor Bahru in Malaysia and Woodlands in Singapore. The Malaysia-Singapore Second Link which is completed in 1998 serves Tanjung Kupang in Malaysia and Tuas in Singapore. 





1) Johor-Singapore Causeway



This is a satellite imagery of the causeway and the Woodlands Checkpoint (Singapore) could be seen at the top left hand corner while the Gerbang Perdana Complex which houses the Malaysian Customs & Immigration checkpoint could be seen labelled as Bukit Chagar at the lower right hand corner.


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## szehoong

Woodlands Checkpoint (Singapore Customs & Immigration Checkpoint): 
































Traffic jam towards the Woodlands Checkpoint (Malaysia-bound) during the eve of Malaysian Independence Day.












An unbelievable column of motorcycles! 












Pity these people.....
























































Woodlands Train Checkpoint


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## szehoong

2) Gerbang Perdana (Malaysia Customs & Immigration Checkpoint)


Photos from GerbangPerdana.com.my























Image from fastflowgroup.com



































Images from imagesingapore.com













I'll post more pictures later.......


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## Palance

szehoong said:


> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_QLsTEdKpjYw/SLp8acv5B9I/AAAAAAAAAT8/xAe4srFewUc/s1600/DSCN2575.JPG


What should Singapore cars be fined for?


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## Losbp

^^ I think the fuel tank capacity is the one, all Singaporean cars are subjected to have a 3/4 tank full when crossing the border. This is caused by Singaporeans who done a visa run to Malaysia just to have their car refueled there because of the high price difference between the two countries (In Malaysia .92 gas is only 0.6US$/l, while 1.6US$/l in Singapore/CMIIW), thus creating the 2 border crossings jammed by those people who maybe went abroad less than an hour :lol:


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## Losbp

My picture of the sign (I've already posted Tuas checkpoint in this thread, you can check it at page 375):


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## ChrisZwolle

I presume $ 2.20 (Singaporese dollars) are considered quite high in southeast Asia, but it's not that expensive for a highly developed nation like Singapore (converted into euros it would be € 1.30 per liter, which is 30 - 50 cents lower than in most of western Europe).

Of course, gas being 2.10 Renggit in Malaysia (€ 0.48 per liter), you can easily save € 45 on a tank of gasoline.


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## Losbp

^^ Indeed Singapore has the highest price/litre than any of his neighbouring countries:

.92 Price by Sep-Oct

Singapore: S$ 2.10 (EUR 1.2)
Malaysia: RM 2.85 (EUR 0.6)
Thailand: THB 37 (EUR 0.8)
Indonesia: Rp9800 (EUR 0.6)

But, from the living cost in Singapore itself, the price is maybe still considerable. (Meh, if you have same such Singaporean price in Indonesia, a chaos is inevitable:lol

Some more picture of Sultan Abubakar CIQ from me in last year Christmas eve, god I passed Malaysian immigration for about 3 hours in the quite massive jam because of the Malaysian authority itself only put few counters open hno:

Tuas Link by adriansyahyassin, on Flickr

Tuas Link by adriansyahyassin, on Flickr

And passed the control, the road is almost empty since everyone got stuck in the immigration process

Tuas Link by adriansyahyassin, on Flickr


Tuas Link by adriansyahyassin, on Flickr


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## Zagor666

Palance said:


> What should Singapore cars be fined for?


i would like to know how they check that?maybe they have some kind of inspector fishs like drug dogs :colgate:


----------



## szehoong

Palance said:


> What should Singapore cars be fined for?





Losbp said:


> ^^ I think the fuel tank capacity is the one, all Singaporean cars are subjected to have a 3/4 tank full when crossing the border. This is caused by Singaporeans who done a visa run to Malaysia just to have their car refueled there because of the high price difference between the two countries (In Malaysia .92 gas is only 0.6US$/l, while 1.6US$/l in Singapore/CMIIW), thus creating the 2 border crossings jammed by those people who maybe went abroad less than an hour :lol:





Zagor666 said:


> i would like to know how they check that?maybe they have some kind of inspector fishs like drug dogs :colgate:



They just look at your fuel counter?


----------



## szehoong

Losbp said:


> My picture of the sign (I've already posted Tuas checkpoint in this thread, you can check it at page 375):


Okay cool.....then I would not post the second link pictures 

But I still have some cool ones of the Gerbang Perdana :yes:


----------



## Greg

^^
great posts Sze:cheers:


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## szehoong

More of Gerbang Perdana (Malaysia Custom & Immigration Checkpoint)  



nazrey said:


> From flickr


----------



## szehoong

More pics of Gerbang Perdana (Malaysia Custom & Immigration)



nazrey said:


> by ilonita50
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ilonita50/3463224744/in/set-72157616250315085/





Vince said:


> By [email protected]'s


----------



## szehoong

Inside the Gerbang Perdana Complex:





LoveArki said:


> JB Sentral from Jalan Tun Abdul Razak
> 
> 
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> Inside JB Sentral 1
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> JB Sentral Exterior 1
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> Big Hall u will see after JB Sentral
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> On the way to "DEPARTURE HALL"...
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> People coming from JB sentral(left)...
> 
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> 
> "DEPARTURE HALL", it is HUGE!




JB Sentral as mentioned above is the southern-most train terminus of Malaysia before entering Singapore. :yes:


----------



## szehoong

More pictures of Gerbang Perdana 




jpatokal said:


> A few pics of JB Sentral and Sultan Iskandar CIQ from yesterday:
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> Larger versions at my homepages: http://jpatokal.iki.fi/photo/travel/Malaysia/Train-SinJB/index.html


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## szehoong

Here are the car lanes for the Customs & Immigration checkpoints at Gerbang Perdana 



UjaiDidida said:


> Here some interior pics i took
> 
> 
> IMG_7442 by ujai_didida, on Flickr
> 
> 
> IMG_7444 by ujai_didida, on Flickr





UjaiDidida said:


> More..
> 
> 
> IMG_7446 by ujai_didida, on Flickr
> 
> 
> IMG_7447 by ujai_didida, on Flickr





UjaiDidida said:


> Workers..
> 
> 
> IMG_7445 by ujai_didida, on Flickr


----------



## riiga

szehoong said:


> They just look at your fuel counter?


I can see how it would pay off to have a "faulty" fuel meter. :lol:


----------



## szehoong

riiga said:


> I can see how it would pay off to have a "faulty" fuel meter. :lol:


There's a heavy fine and jail time for it. Remember its Singapore! 

If I could recall corrrectly, I think it is SGD 5,000 or 1 year jail term for offenders..... :yes:


----------



## szehoong

2) Malaysia-Singapore Second Link




On the upper right side corner is the Sultan Abu Bakar Complex (Malaysia Customs & Immigration checkpoint) and on the bottom left corner is the Tuas Checkpoint (Singapore Customs & Immigration checkpoint).


More pictures of this crossing could be found on Page 375 of this thread. :yes:


----------



## Corvinus

Heavy traffic at Italy - Vatican border (looking into Via Sant'Anna, SCV from Via di Porta Angelica, I)
Pic taken Sep 2013.


----------



## EU-Europa

^ Why would anyone be concerned about people travelling between the Vatican and Rome (it seems like they're checking paperwork in the photo)? It's not like the EU is worried about anyone suspicious coming in from the Vatican, and I doubt EU citizens would be a threat to the Vatican.


----------



## El Tiburon

EU-Europa said:


> ^ Why would anyone be concerned about people travelling between the Vatican and Rome (it seems like they're checking paperwork in the photo)? It's not like the EU is worried about anyone suspicious coming in from the Vatican, and I doubt EU citizens would be a threat to the Vatican.


The Vatican City State did not join Schengen so that it could maintain its border controls.


----------



## bogdymol

When I visited Vatican back in 2007 I wasn't checked for papers, but had to do a a security check similar to the ones performed at the airport (with metal detectors and bag scanning). 

On google maps you can see the line of people waiting to be checked. I found on google a picture with the check:


----------



## volodaaaa

El Tiburon said:


> The Vatican City State did not join Schengen so that it could maintain its border controls.


Am I supposed to declare the souvenirs as well? :lol:


----------



## Alex_ZR

bogdymol said:


> When I visited Vatican back in 2007 I wasn't checked for papers, but had to do a a security check similar to the ones performed at the airport (with metal detectors and bag scanning).
> 
> On google maps you can see the line of people waiting to be checked. I found on google a picture with the check:


I also visited Vatican in 2007. Security check is performed at the entrance of Saint Peter's Basilica, just in case you planned to vandalise interior of the church. I think it doesn't have anything with "Vatican border control".


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## Attus

bogdymol said:


> When I visited Vatican back in 2007 I wasn't checked for papers, but had to do a a security check similar to the ones performed at the airport (with metal detectors and bag scanning).
> 
> On google maps you can see the line of people waiting to be checked. I found on google a picture with the check:


St. Peter square belongs to the Vatican (the border line are the colonnades). So in your picture the queue is inside the Vatican, and not directing into Vatican. In Google Maps aerial photo, too, the queue is inside the Vatican. It is not border control but security check before you can visit the basilica. 
HERE the white line between Piazza San Pietro and Piazza Pio XII is the border between Italy and the Vatican, and obviously there is not any check there. 
THIS GATE is border crossing


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## g.spinoza

Attus said:


> St. Peter square belongs to the Vatican (the border line are the colonnades). So in your picture the queue is inside the Vatican, and not directing into Vatican. In Google Maps aerial photo, too, the queue is inside the Vatican. It is not border control but security check before you can visit the basilica.


This doesn't mean anything. You are not forced to make border control at the actual border. Besides, St. Peter square is Vatican territory but Italian police forces have jurisdiction on it.

But you're right, these are not border controls, just security check.


----------



## EU-Europa

That makes more sense. It would make the lives of anyone working in the Vatican a living hell if they had border control with Rome.


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## Attus

g.spinoza said:


> This doesn't mean anything. You are not forced to make border control at the actual border.


Right, however border checks are usually not in the middle of the state ;-))


----------



## Road_UK

Attus said:


> Right, however border checks are usually not in the middle of the state ;-))


Oh but they are. How often didn't I get checked in the middle of France and Germany by customs...


----------



## bogdymol

As I said in my previous post, before entering the Vatican (St. Peter's Basilica) there was a control, but not for papers (you could be from any country in the world, even illegal immigrant into Europe), but for security purposes. I know this is not an actual border crossing check point, but Vatican is a special country and if you want to get inside it's main building you have to be checked.


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> As I said in my previous post, before entering the Vatican (St. Peter's Basilica) there was a control, but not for papers (you could be from any country in the world, even illegal immigrant into Europe), but for security purposes. I know this is not an actual border crossing check point, but Vatican is a special country and if you want to get inside it's main building you have to be checked.


I don't know if this is due to Vatican being a "special country". For some time after 9/11, access to the main church in Bologna was also controlled: some muslim terrorist group planned to destroy the (in)famous "Muhammad in hell" fresco inside the Basilica.

St. Peter is a sensitive target for terrorist, so it's basically that.


----------



## Attus

bogdymol said:


> As I said in my previous post, before entering the Vatican (St. Peter's Basilica) there was a control, but not for papers (you could be from any country in the world, even illegal immigrant into Europe), but for security purposes. I know this is not an actual border crossing check point, but Vatican is a special country and if you want to get inside it's main building you have to be checked.


I had such a check in Milan Cathedreal (Duomo) as well, although Milan is not a country at all ;-) I think this check is nothing to do with borders. And once again: the border is not at the basilica's entrance so that entering Vatican or entering the basilica is two different thing.


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## g.spinoza

Attus said:


> And once again: the border is not at the basilica's entrance so that entering Vatican or entering the basilica is two different thing.


On this matter, once again: this doesn't mean anything. St. Peter square is pedestrian while the roads around it (in Italian territory) are not. They simply cannot put border checks at the very border, otherwise long queues of people would block traffic all around the place.
If they have to establish border controls between Italy and Vatican, they'd probably place them at the entrance of the basilica.


----------



## Corvinus

EU-Europa said:


> ^ Why would anyone be concerned about people travelling between the Vatican and Rome (it seems like they're checking paperwork in the photo)? It's not like the EU is worried about anyone suspicious coming in from the Vatican, and I doubt EU citizens would be a threat to the Vatican.


I asked one of these guards if I may enter the Vatican there on foot as a tourist. They said no. So the Vatican "Hinterland" cannot be entered by just anyone; only St. Peter's Square and the Basicila (after being security-checked) can. These do not provide access to the "Hinterland".


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Rest of Vatican is sort of "private property", there's nothing particular about Vatican itself. It's like you wanted to enter my home with a visa for Italy


----------



## Road_UK

Last time I entered the Vatican I didn't even get security checks. I just walked in...


----------



## Attus

Corvinus said:


> I asked one of these guards if I may enter the Vatican there on foot as a tourist. They said no. So the Vatican "Hinterland" cannot be entered by just anyone; only St. Peter's Square and the Basicila (after being security-checked) can. These do not provide access to the "Hinterland".


+ Vatican Museums. They're in Vatican territory as well and are open to visitors (I mean, for visitors that buy a ticket )


----------



## piotr71

Also in Poland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croatia


----------



## yohaniv

Last one does not count. Why Croats are so widespread in neighborhood countries is directly connected to Ottoman expansion in 1300 - 1700 over that region. People were just more or less violently shooed away. That is why here in Slovenia at least quarter of surnames (coincidently, that was the time surnames were introduced here) are somehow connected to that long lasting pressure: Horvat (no need to explain), Bizjak (fled one), Turk (generally someone from Turkish occupation zone), Novak (newman). All of local top 10.


----------



## volodaaaa

yohaniv said:


> Last one does not count. Why Croats are so widespread in neighborhood countries is directly connected to Ottoman expansion in 1300 - 1700 over that region. People were just more or less violently shooed away. That is why here in Slovenia at least quarter of surnames (coincidently, that was the time surnames were introduced here) are somehow connected to that long lasting pressure: Horvat (no need to explain), Bizjak (fled one), Turk (generally someone from Turkish occupation zone), Novak (newman). All of local top 10.


Horvath is actually most frequent surname in Slovakia. Also popular are Nemeth, Toth, Törok - all are hungarian names of nationalities (Croat, German, Slovak, Turk).


----------



## Eulanthe

EU-Europa said:


> The Vatican has a public pharmacy and post office? Why? :?


The Vatican Post Office seems to be far more organised than the Italian one too - I have a friend in Rome who posts anything important via the Vatican rather than via the Italian system...


----------



## Nikkodemo

_*USA-Mexico Borderline (Juárez City-El Paso) Pic by Luis Sigala:*_









By sigalapachon at 2012-02-15


----------



## alserrod

Are heighs measured in feet in Mexico?


----------



## Interstate275Fla

alserrod said:


> Are heighs measured in feet in Mexico?


No, heights in Mexico as well as Canada are in meters as our American neighbors to the north and south are metric. I was in Tijuana over Labor Day weekend 2012 and I did notice that all heights are measured in meters.

While related to the international border crossings topic, some border states have signage for distances and speed limits in kilometers right after you clear U.S. Customs. After that it's miles only from there.

I remember when I visited Laredo/Nuevo Laredo a long time ago that there used to be a speed limit sign on northbound Interstate 35 that had a speed limit in kilometers mounted directly below the regular speed limit sign - a number and the legend "km/h" in a red circle with the Spanish word _maxima_ below. I am not sure if this sign still stands today or not.


----------



## Skyline_

Interstate275Fla said:


> No, heights in Mexico as well as Canada are in meters as our American neighbors to the north and south are metric. I was in Tijuana over Labor Day weekend 2012 and I did notice that all heights are measured in meters.
> 
> While related to the international border crossings topic, some border states have signage for distances and speed limits in kilometers right after you clear U.S. Customs. After that it's miles only from there.
> 
> I remember when I visited Laredo/Nuevo Laredo a long time ago that there used to be a speed limit sign on northbound Interstate 35 that had a speed limit in kilometers mounted directly below the regular speed limit sign - a number and the legend "km/h" in a red circle with the Spanish word _maxima_ below. I am not sure if this sign still stands today or not.


It looks like everyone went metric, except for you guys and the UK....


----------



## alserrod

Interstate275Fla said:


> No, heights in Mexico as well as Canada are in meters as our American neighbors to the north and south are metric. I was in Tijuana over Labor Day weekend 2012 and I did notice that all heights are measured in meters.
> 
> While related to the international border crossings topic, some border states have signage for distances and speed limits in kilometers right after you clear U.S. Customs. After that it's miles only from there.


I said it because there is a sign in feet.
Is it in USA or in Mexico?




> I remember when I visited Laredo/Nuevo Laredo a long time ago that there used to be a speed limit sign on northbound Interstate 35 that had a speed limit in kilometers mounted directly below the regular speed limit sign - a number and the legend "km/h" in a red circle with the Spanish word _maxima_ below. I am not sure if this sign still stands today or not.



Be sure that providing you post a picture here about it, someone will use as avatar!!!!!

:cheers:


----------



## alserrod

Skyline_ said:


> It looks like everyone went metric, except for you guys and the UK....


Either my teachers in University. They gave distances, capacities, etc... in British metrics, not in standard ones and had to change them.

It was only to see if we were able to make correct "translations".
You could have a correct exam but a mistake there was terribly!!!!


----------



## MattiG

alserrod said:


> Either my teachers in University. They gave distances, capacities, etc... in British metrics, not in standard ones and had to change them.
> 
> It was only to see if we were able to make correct "translations".
> You could have a correct exam but a mistake there was terribly!!!!


I have an engineering background, and I faced something similar during my university years. The logic was rather clear: An engineer must be able to work in international cases, and recognize non-SI measures, too. In addition, an engineer must be able to assess whether the result of calculations is meaningful or not. The scale at the exams was strict: If the logic of the answer was totally correct, but there was a small numeric error having a major influence to the result, the answer delivered zero points. An engineer must be able to distinguish if an axle should be one centimeter in diameter or 10 centimeters, for example.


----------



## Fatfield

Skyline_ said:


> It looks like everyone went metric, except for you guys and the UK....


Up to a point, we have gone metric. Distance is still imperial but lots of other things are metric - weights being the obvious one. Most non distance road signs are metric too. Then there's money and liquid measures. Some liquid measures are still imperial in pubs but the remainder are metric. I work in the print industry and everything is metric.


----------



## Fatfield

alserrod said:


> Either my teachers in University. They gave distances, capacities, etc... in British metrics, not in standard ones and had to change them.


I left school in 1979 and one of our lessons then was technical drawing. All the reference books were in imperial but we had to translate them and use metric when doing our drawings etc.


----------



## bogdymol

alserrod said:


> Be sure that providing you post a picture here about it, someone will use as avatar!!!!!
> 
> :cheers:


Found this on google image search:


----------



## alserrod

but I wanted to say with the symbol of Route 35 on the top


----------



## alserrod

MattiG said:


> I have an engineering background, and I faced something similar during my university years. The logic was rather clear: An engineer must be able to work in international cases, and recognize non-SI measures, too. In addition, an engineer must be able to assess whether the result of calculations is meaningful or not. The scale at the exams was strict: If the logic of the answer was totally correct, but there was a small numeric error having a major influence to the result, the answer delivered zero points. An engineer must be able to distinguish if an axle should be one centimeter in diameter or 10 centimeters, for example.


So do I and, apart of those changes of measures and that stuff... all measures (related to a plan, piece, etc) had to be given in milimetres, never centimetres, for instance


----------



## MattiG

alserrod said:


> So do I and, apart of those changes of measures and that stuff... all measures (related to a plan, piece, etc) had to be given in milimetres, never centimetres, for instance


According to best practices related to drawings, yes, and any other document where the unit is not explicitely expressed.

There is a HUGE wooden church in a Kerimäki, Finland dating back to year 1848. Nothing in that tiny village justifies building a biggest wooden church in the world. It has been speculated that the builders misthought the measures being inches, not centimeters. (Other theories exist, too.)


----------



## El Tiburon

bogdymol said:


> Found this on google image search:


That's a speed limit sign from the late 1970's or early 1980's. There were many signs like that during that era while the government attempted to make the United States go metric but they were eventually abandoned. The "translation" was inaccurate, though, because of rounding off the numbers: 60 mph is 64.36 km/h but it was rounded down to 60 km/h in the sign while 60 km/h is 37 mph.

Eventually, the government gave up and all speed limit signs are in mph while distance signs are in miles and fractions of miles (for those not used to the American system, 1/4 mile = 400 meters, 1/2 mile = 800 meters, 3/4 mile = 1,200 meters).


----------



## Verso

Bridge between Slovenia and Austria across river Mur(a) at Trate/Mureck:









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/87449180









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/87449182









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/35015213









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/35015232









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/35015251


----------



## MaXxImE

​


----------



## volodaaaa

Verso said:


> Bridge between Slovenia and Austria across river Mur(a) at Trate/Mureck:
> 
> 
> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/87449180
> 
> 
> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/87449182
> 
> 
> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/35015213
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/35015232
> 
> 
> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/35015251


Why is the name of Austria written in Slovenian?


----------



## eucitizen

Probably because it is still in Slovenia


----------



## Penn's Woods

Interstate275Fla said:


> No, heights in Mexico as well as Canada are in meters as our American neighbors to the north and south are metric. I was in Tijuana over Labor Day weekend 2012 and I did notice that all heights are measured in meters.
> 
> While related to the international border crossings topic, some border states have signage for distances and speed limits in kilometers right after you clear U.S. Customs. After that it's miles only from there.
> 
> I remember when I visited Laredo/Nuevo Laredo a long time ago that there used to be a speed limit sign on northbound Interstate 35 that had a speed limit in kilometers mounted directly below the regular speed limit sign - a number and the legend "km/h" in a red circle with the Spanish word _maxima_ below. I am not sure if this sign still stands today or not.


There are dual-system signs ("Boston - x miles/y km"; "next exit 2 miles/3.2 km") all along I-95 in Maine. (And - to get a bit further off topic - if you drive I-87/A-15 from the New York area to Montreal, you'll see more French on official signs in the northernmost 40 miles or so of New York state than you will English in Quebec.)

And there's plenty of UNofficial use of traditional measures in Canada. Like the soft-drink machine in my Montreal hotel informing me in French that the drinks were cold - "39F."


----------



## Verso

volodaaaa said:


> Why is the name of Austria written in Slovenian?


Because it's in Slovenia?


----------



## volodaaaa

Verso said:


> Because it's in Slovenia?


Ok, so there is another next sign with "Österreich"? I just want to say, that only two basic forms of country names are important: the english /or rather international/ one and the original one in the domestic language. 

I would understand if there was written Austria or Österreich. But Slovenian name is completely useless even if those signs usually bear domestic name. 

Some countries has strange names in different languages. I bet nobody would understand what "Rakúsko" at Slovak, "Allemagne" at French or "Mali i Zi" at Albanian borders are.


----------



## Penn's Woods

I thought those EU border signs usually said something like "Niederlande 500m" - i.e., in the language of the country you're still in at that point - then "Nederland" (in the language of the country you're entering) at the border?


----------



## Verso

volodaaaa said:


> But Slovenian name is completely useless


Not to me and 2.5 million other people who understand it. There's also just "Slowenien" on the other side of the border. Besides, it's not really an important sign; this looked more problematic.


----------



## volodaaaa

Verso said:


> Not to me and 2.5 million other people who understand it. There's also just "Slowenien" on the other side of the border. Besides, it's not really an important sign; this looked more problematic.


Yeah, Madžarska might be problematic, but not that as Voulgaria in Greece is :lol:


----------



## Verso

Slovenia-Austria:









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/93531578


----------



## Verso

This one is nice. Southernmost point of (Austrian) Styria (border with Slovenia):









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/57292030


----------



## Penn's Woods

volodaaaa said:


> Ok, so there is another next sign with "Österreich"? I just want to say, that only two basic forms of country names are important: the english /or rather international/ one and the original one in the domestic language.
> 
> I would understand if there was written Austria or Österreich. But Slovenian name is completely useless even if those signs usually bear domestic name.
> 
> Some countries has strange names in different languages. I bet nobody would understand what "Rakúsko" at Slovak, "Allemagne" at French or "Mali i Zi" at Albanian borders are.


Surely "Avstrija"'s recognizable, particularly to someone who knows what a blue sign with a bunch of stars surrounding a proper name* means and who's aware that the Austrian border is nearby....

*We've been discussing sign recognition on another thread, after all....


----------



## Wiener.Blut

Verso said:


> Not to me and 2.5 million other people who understand it. There's also just "Slowenien" on the other side of the border. Besides, it's not really an important sign; this looked more problematic.


I am sure that more than 2,5 M people understand Avstrija on a blue sign with stars 50m from Austria.


----------



## alserrod

Looking to football matches, today there is a female match Belgium-Netherlands, this afternoon

Anyone is in a pub of Baarle to watch in on TV?


----------



## piotr71

volodaaaa said:


> Ok, so there is another next sign with "Österreich"? I just want to say, that only two basic forms of country names are important: the* english* /or rather international/ one and the original one in the domestic language.


English name isn't important outside of English speaking world. In Poland, I definitely prefer, actually demand, Polish names for my country. Therefore, I want to see "Polska" on one side of a certain border and "Polsko" on the other side. I also do not mind to call and write "Słowacja" and "Slovensko" relatively. I do not care whether foreigners can or can not understand the name of my country. However, all borders' crossers usually know where they are, so there is no need to translate any name in English.



> I would understand if there was written Austria or Österreich. But Slovenian name is completely useless even if those signs usually bear domestic name.(..)


Most of the people in Europe would understand Slovenian name for Austria and with no doubts all who cross that border. I'd also bet you had no problems to get it.


----------



## Road_UK

The whole world is the English speaking world. Especially with the newer generation the English language creates a bridge between people who's native languages are different from each other.


----------



## piotr71

I am aware of enriching mother tongues by influence of other languages, it has been happening since the birth of human being and a first word spoken, so, I do not mind if this process continues to a certain extend. However, there isn't need to use English where it's not necessary, therefore I see completely useless translating countries' names on blue-borders' signs into English. Particularly in such cases as Czech-Slovak former border crossings.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> The whole world is the English speaking world. Especially with the newer generation the English language creates a bridge between people who's native languages are different from each other.


A century ago that was French, a century from now it might be Spanish. And meantime, we native speakers get people asking us to simplify our vocabulary so that non-natives can understand us (I've seen that in the fricking New York Times) or Briticizing our usage so that people who've learned "good" English can uderstand us (I've seen that on this forum.)

EDIT:
The last couple of days, there's been a conference in Brussels, sponsored by Le Soir, De Standaard and Le Nouvel observateur, on "making Europe work." I've seen Le Soir's coverage. They solicited ideas from people; someone from Spain wrote in saying English should be made the first language in schools and media throughout Europe; local languages should be reduced to spoken languages. Does no one care about their own culture? Spaniards no longer reading Cervantes?


----------



## Penn's Woods

piotr71 said:


> I am aware of enriching mother tongues by influence of other languages, it has been happening since the birth of human being and a first word spoken, so, I do not mind if this process continues to a certain extend. However, there isn't need to use English where it's not necessary, therefore I see completely useless translating countries' names on blue-borders' signs into English. Particularly in such cases as Czech-Slovak former border crossings.


Yes. "influence of other language*s*" - plural. Like when every educated person in the Netherlands spoke English, French and German. (Or at least seemed to.) Surely we've not yet reached the point where learning German is a waste of time for someone who lives in Strasbourg or Nijmegen.


----------



## Palance

Penn's Woods said:


> I thought those EU border signs usually said something like "Niederlande 500m" - i.e., in the language of the country you're still in at that point - then "Nederland" (in the language of the country you're entering) at the border?


It gets interesting when there are 2 official languages in the area where the sign can be found, like here in Belgium: https://maps.google.nl/maps?q=Kelmi...id=9LSx4xFPPqr98PwDjUPX9w&cbp=12,91.19,,1,4.2

Or 3 languages, like here at the NO-FI-border:









I have even seen a sign in 4 languages (I thought it was at the RU-FI-border, but I cannot find the picture now).


----------



## Gorky

MaXxImE said:


> ​


*The border of Spain is the river...not land*!!


----------



## volodaaaa

Road_UK said:


> The whole world is the English speaking world. Especially with the newer generation the English language creates a bridge between people who's native languages are different from each other.


I don't insist on perfect world speaking in English. But country names is something different. I bet everyone,who is asked to, can tell you the name of your country in English. I don't think English is the most wide-spread language in the world, but I think we can simply say English country names = international country names. Even ISO code for Soviet Union was derived from english name - SU (Soviet Union) despite of Cold war


----------



## Palance

The country code for Spain is .ES Not really derived from the English name. Same goes for .HR (Croatia)


----------



## piotr71

^^
*(D)*


----------



## Road_UK

volodaaaa said:


> I don't insist on perfect world speaking in English. But country names is something different. I bet everyone,who is asked to, can tell you the name of your country in English. I don't think English is the most wide-spread language in the world, but I think we can simply say English country names = international country names. Even ISO code for Soviet Union was derived from english name - SU (Soviet Union) despite of Cold war


There are some non-native English speakers on here who consider calling place names by its English name a sin, and will continue to interact in English but calling those localities Milano, Napoli, Lisboa and München instead of Milan, Napels, Lisbon and Munich. They'll dictate native English speakers on how to not speak English in a English speaking forum. It's up to them, I'm sure they know better than the UN charters and the Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries. But for the earth's international population it's a good way to point out what you mean if mentioned in English.


----------



## piotr71

Hang on a minute. It all started with this sign:



>


And had been continued after a question why it's written in Slovenian and not English. The answer was pretty clear and obvious: because the sign is located in Slovenia. Simple, isn't it?


----------



## Road_UK

piotr71 said:


> Hang on a minute. It all started with this sign:
> 
> And had been continued after a question why it's written in Slovenian and not English. The answer was pretty clear and obvious: because the sign is located in Slovenia. Simple, isn't it?


Yep. But the discussion dragged on from there onwards.


----------



## SeanT

Every common "drivers" SHOULD understand this sign as Österreich, Ausztria, Austria or something else. You need to have some kind of geografical understanding of the situation too. People are not complitly stupid....or at least I hope it is not the case.


----------



## volodaaaa

Guys, I hope you did not get me wrong. I just wanted to discuss, that Slovene "Avstria" is little bit irregular case to me. I have only seen country names in native language on such signs. Moreover, there is a sign with "Österreich - 1 km" label near my neighbourhood


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> There are some non-native English speakers on here who consider calling place names by its English name a sin, and will *continue to interact in English but calling those localities Milano, Napoli, Lisboa and München instead of Milan, Napels*, Lisbon and Munich. They'll dictate native English speakers on how to not speak English in a English speaking forum. It's up to them, I'm sure they know better than the UN charters and the Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries. But for the earth's international population it's a good way to point out what you mean if mentioned in English.


But obviously they say Parigi, Londra, Monaco di Baviera, Mosca,... while speaking Italian.


----------



## Reivajar

There is not common criteria about using exonyms/endonyms around Europe. English is not a lingua franca de facto around Spanish roads either. It is permanently inconsistent even within the same country.


----------



## Penn's Woods

volodaaaa said:


> Guys, I hope you did not get me wrong. I just wanted to discuss, that Slovene "Avstria" is little bit irregular case to me. I have only seen country names in native language on such signs. Moreover, there is a sign with "Österreich - 1 km" label near my neighbourhood


Hence my question: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=107838959&postcount=8726
But I wouldn't expect to see "Österreich" in Slovakia; I'd expect to see it in Slovak (this is of course based on what I've seen of this sort of signage on forums like this one, rather than personal driving experience....) And I think a sign in Slovak in Slovakia is totally appropriate.


----------



## Road_UK

italystf said:


> But obviously they say Parigi, Londra, Monaco di Baviera, Mosca,... while speaking Italian.


Sure. These are the official Italian words, and no outsider has the right to change that, like some do on here with English. 

Obviously, it's a whole different can of worms when it comes to signposting. I think I do prefer the Dutch way and signpost cities abroad in their original language, as this is the destination to follow when you have crossed the border anyway.


----------



## Attus

volodaaaa said:


> Guys, I hope you did not get me wrong. I just wanted to discuss, that Slovene "Avstria" is little bit irregular case to me. I have only seen country names in native language on such signs. Moreover, there is a sign with "Österreich - 1 km" label near my neighbourhood


Here in West-Germany, BeNeLux area it is usually so, that the "XXXX 1km" sign is in the language of the country that you're leaving, and the "XXXX" sign is the language of the country wich you're entering. This "Avstrija 1km" fits this rule perfectly


----------



## Wiener.Blut

Penn's Woods said:


> A century ago that was French, a century from now it might be Spanish. And meantime, we native speakers get people asking us to simplify our vocabulary so that non-natives can understand us (I've seen that in the fricking New York Times) or Briticizing our usage so that people who've learned "good" English can uderstand us (I've seen that on this forum.)
> 
> EDIT:
> The last couple of days, there's been a conference in Brussels, sponsored by Le Soir, De Standaard and Le Nouvel observateur, on "making Europe work." I've seen Le Soir's coverage. They solicited ideas from people; someone from Spain wrote in saying English should be made the first language in schools and media throughout Europe; local languages should be reduced to spoken languages. Does no one care about their own culture? Spaniards no longer reading Cervantes?


I highly doubt that "someone from Spain" can speak on behalf whole Europe.


----------



## Road_UK

Wiener.Blut said:


> I highly doubt that "someone from Spain" can speak on behalf whole Europe.


Why not? A Spanish citizen is entitled to have a say in European affairs as much as an Englishman, Dutchman, Frenchman, a German or an Austrian...


----------



## eucitizen

Penn's Woods said:


> Hence my question: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=107838959&postcount=8726
> But I wouldn't expect to see "Österreich" in Slovakia; I'd expect to see it in Slovak (this is of course based on what I've seen of this sort of signage on forums like this one, rather than personal driving experience....) And I think a sign in Slovak in Slovakia is totally appropriate.


There is no a EU wide rule about that sign. Some countries don't have it eihter in their law, like Poland. Austria for example doesnt have sign saying that you are entering another country in few hundreds meters. They have just the sign when you enter the country. 
In Slovak Austria is called Rakusko, so probably very few foreigners would understand what country it is, that's why they put the sign with German name. On the other hand when you see that sign you already know that you are going to enter Austria. What I always wondered, sorry for OT, it is why the Slovaks and Czechs calls Austria Rakusko/Rakousko. I was unable to find it.


----------



## piotr71

^^


> The Czech and Slovak languages have a peculiar name for Austria. Czech Rakousko and Slovak Rakúsko neither derived from German Österreich nor from Latin Austria. The Czech name of Rakousko, previously also Rakúsy and later Rakousy, which is still used for the states of Upper and Lower Austria (Horní a Dolní Rakousy), originates in the name of the Austrian castle and town of Raabs an der Thaya near the Czech-Austrian border, formerly also known as Ratgoz or Ratgos.[13] It is worth noting that in his Geography the ancient writer Ptolemy mentions two tribes (of unknown ethnic affiliation) named Racatae and Racatriae which inhabit the areas around the Danube river "up to his bend", roughly corresponding to the region north of Vienna and southwestern Slovakia


So, when Czechs decided to visit Austria they said "we go to Rakús/ ideme* na Rakús" as they called Ratgos. From that, it's pretty straight way to find out why they call Austria so differently.

* correct word?


----------



## eucitizen

Thanks, finally I know it! What is funny that any slovka or czech I asked they weren't able to answer me.


----------



## SeanT

..Yes, In hungarian you can find those totally different names for countries too.
Oroszország - Russia
Olaszország - Italy
Lengyelország - Poland

"ország" can be translated as "land"


----------



## eucitizen

SeanT said:


> ..Yes, In hungarian you can find those totally different names for countries too.
> Oroszország - Russia
> Olaszország - Italy
> Lengyelország - Poland
> 
> "ország" can be translated as "land"


Yes you are right, but in this case we are talking about the sign indicating the neighbouring country you are approaching. I think in Hungary,you dont have that sign, the 12 stars with the country you are going to enter. You use that sign only when you are entring Hungary. And anyway how do you call the neighbouring countries?


----------



## Palance

Attus said:


> Here in West-Germany, BeNeLux area it is usually so, that the "XXXX 1km" sign is in the language of the country that you're leaving, and the "XXXX" sign is the language of the country wich you're entering.


Not always (sign is in Germany)


----------



## piotr71

eucitizen said:


> Thanks, finally I know it! What is funny that any slovka or czech I asked they weren't able to answer me.


Next time ask Poles


----------



## Palance

eucitizen said:


> Austria for example doesnt have sign saying that you are entering another country in few hundreds meters. They have just the sign when you enter the country.


Wrong again  (and also in the 'wrong' language)


----------



## Palance

More:

Austria when entering Österreich from Italia

Again "Austria"


----------



## volodaaaa

piotr71 said:


> ^^
> 
> 
> So, when Czechs decided to visit Austria they said "we go to Rakús/ ideme* na Rakús" as they called Ratgos. From that, it's pretty straight way to find out why they call Austria so differently.
> 
> * correct word?


The word is correct.

I would just add, that the city is Raabs an der Thaya in german and Czech merchants mistakenly translated the name to Rakous according which, the whole Austria started to be called Rakousko. 

Slovak language were influenced by Czech, and since in pronunciation the Czech "ou" is translated as "ú", we started to call it Rakúsko as well.

Ridiculous situation is in terms of Austria-Hungary, which is called Rakúsko-Uhorsko or Rakousko-Uhersko. In former Czechoslovakia pre-1918 Hungary is called Uhorsko and post-1918 Hungary Maďarsko. I can't tell you why, but Uhorsko seems to be derived from english Hungary whereas Maďarsko from Hungarian Magyarországh.


The European Schengen Area Entry signs seems to totally different.


----------



## piotr71

> I can't tell you why, but Uhorsko seems to be derived from english *Hungary*


Rather from Latin 'Hungaria'  as also English name is derived.


----------



## MaXxImE

*Portugal - Spain (Elvas-Badajoz)*


----------



## Moravian

piotr71 said:


> ^^
> 
> 
> So, when Czechs decided to visit Austria they said "we go to Rakús/ ideme* na Rakús" as they called Ratgos. From that, it's pretty straight way to find out why they call Austria so differently.
> 
> * correct word?


Well, some pictures from that already mentioned nice small Austrian town - Raabs an der Thaya in Waldviertel, not so far away from Czech border:


----------



## Wiener.Blut

Road_UK said:


> Why not? A Spanish citizen is entitled to have a say in European affairs as much as an Englishman, Dutchman, Frenchman, a German or an Austrian...


Off course, but "someone" can say something only for himself and not for all.


----------



## Zagor666

Attus said:


> Here in West-Germany, BeNeLux area it is usually so, that the "XXXX 1km" sign is in the language of the country that you're leaving, and the "XXXX" sign is the language of the country wich you're entering. This "Avstrija 1km" fits this rule perfectly


Luxembourg in this case would be an interesting example.officialy the administration language,so the language they used in traffic is french but they off course all spreak perfect german and german is the,lets say,everyday work language for newspapers and so on.what would now be logical to write on a german sign direction luxembourg.i saw signs with luxemburg and luxembourg on it in germany and one with clervaux(clerf) on which is strange cause the luxemburgian name for clervaux is klierf, i would like to know where clerf is comming from.


----------



## MichiH

Zagor666 said:


> i would like to know where clerf is coming from.


It is the German name of the town: > click <.


----------



## Zagor666

MichiH said:


> It is the German name of the town: > click <.


yeah,but i would like to know why a luxembourgian village has a german name.usualy they have one name,french(clervaux,larochette,troisvierges) or german(wiltz,mersch,fischbach)and off course a luxembbourgian one.i dont hink that french or belgians from vallonie have a french name for for example wiltz or hobscheid


----------



## alserrod

MaXxImE said:


> *Portugal - Spain (Elvas-Badajoz)*




Nice one

If only the'd sign Elvas and Badajoz (and distances) instead of the border. As can be seen, no booths.


Btw, is El Corte Ingles add near the motorway still in Portugal? (in Spain it is forbidden to have adds)


----------



## Road_UK

Zagor666 said:


> yeah,but i would like to know why a luxembourgian village has a german name.usualy they have one name,french(clervaux,larochette,troisvierges) or german(wiltz,mersch,fischbach)and off course a luxembbourgian one.i dont hink that french or belgians from vallonie have a french name for for example wiltz or hobscheid


Could you rewrite that post and do a spellchecker on it? I almost know what you mean, but with the effort you've put in this post it may not be worth answering...


----------



## Kemo

PL/SK border in Zwardoń

This is Polish S69 expressway; direction Slovakia. The border is just behind the second overpass.









Direction Poland









The traffic here is very low, also there is no heavy transit. That's because Slovak side is missing a decent road and heavy trucks are not allowed here.

The viaduct that I took the previous photos from:









New border terminal opened in January 2006. In December 2007 Poland and Slovakia joined the Schengen area. Such a waste of money hno:









Another view of the now useless terminal:









Thiese viaducts seen in the distance are part of Slovak D3 expressway. Wait, didn't I say that there is no decent road? Well... this ~3km section is completed but not opened for traffic, because it leads to nowhere. 









Construction of the stretch that will link this section to route 11 (thus allowing heavy trucks and possibly changing the route of E75) should start about now.

Bonus:
PL/SK border stone:

SK side









PL side


----------



## eucitizen

Palance said:


> Wrong again  (and also in the 'wrong' language)


I forgot that sign, I am used to go via Brenner to Italy and there Austria didn't put that sign.


----------



## Road_UK

eucitizen said:


> I forgot that sign, I am used to go via Brenner to Italy and there Austria didn't put that sign.


No, but instead they've put an Italian layout and style sign in three languages 2 km before the border warning motorists about the tolls ahead in Italy. On the Italian side there's also an Austrian sign...


----------



## MaXxImE

*Spain-Portugal (Ayamonte-Faro)
*


----------



## Penn's Woods

Wiener.Blut said:


> I highly doubt that "someone from Spain" can speak on behalf whole Europe.


Of course. I didn't say he did. But I find even one individual having that attitude depressing. [soapbox mode on] Your (Europe/Europeans') diversity is a great advantage, perhaps your greatest. Don't throw it away. [soapbox mode off]


----------



## Wiener.Blut

Penn's Woods said:


> Of course. I didn't say he did. But I find even one individual having that attitude depressing. [soapbox mode on] Your (Europe/Europeans') diversity is a great advantage, perhaps your greatest. Don't throw it away. [soapbox mode off]


different ppl different opinions.


----------



## Skyland

This bridge seems to be designed based on the border bridge between Panama and Costa Rica ;-)





Seriously, the roads in Ukraine are so bad that the border bridge in Sighetu Marmatiei did not surprise me. In Ukraine most street have huge potholes, then they limit speed to 30 km/h or sometimes 10 km/h in long, long street villages. The purpose: The traffic police an stop you whenever they want and charge you huge fines. Their attitude and open corruption makes driving with a non-Ukrainian car unpleasant. Too bad since the country is beautiful and can be easily reached from most central european cities. 

In Romania - relatively good streets and no abusive police controls. You could see the difference between a country inside and outside EU - simply crossing a river.


----------



## cinxxx

There were many bridges over the Tisa river when that part of Ukraine was actually Slovakia, Poland and Romania. After the war, none was rebuilt. There are very few border crossings between RO and UA.


----------



## vatse

*Border of Guyana and Suriname*

Border post at Moleson Creek, Guyana









Ferry to Suriname


















Border on the Corentyne River









Border post at South Drain, Suriname


















from http://tarmotamming.blogspot.com


----------



## vatse

*Border of Suriname and French Guiana*

Border post at Albina, Suriname









Marowijne/Maroni River and temporary ferry used for crossing









Border post at Saint-Laurent-du-Maroni, French Guiana









from http://tarmotamming.blogspot.com


----------



## italystf

Is there now a bridge between Brazil and French Guyana?


----------



## Road_UK

italystf said:


> Is there now a bridge between Brazil and French Guyana?


It's been there for a while I think. I seem to remember that the French already finished a beautiful road right up to the border as the Brazilians were still grovelling stones.


----------



## Corvinus

vatse said:


> *Border of Guyana and Suriname*
> 
> Border post at Moleson Creek, Guyana


White van in 1st pic is Estonian-plated, right?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> It's been there for a while I think. I seem to remember that the French already finished a beautiful road right up to the border as the Brazilians were still grovelling stones.


Brisavoine used to post lots of pictures from French Guyana. Every time he or she (sorry) mentioned the "French-Brazilian border" it caught me off guard and I had to think about that one for a second.


----------



## vatse

Corvinus said:


> White van in 1st pic is Estonian-plated, right?


No, it's not this van  You can find it on the last picture - Border post at South Drain, Suriname.


----------



## Road_UK

What's an Estonian van doing in Suriname? European driver licences are not even valid over there. Apparently if you want to drive in Suriname you have to take another test...


----------



## Road_UK

Ok I've seen the blog. I'm just wondering how they solved that licence thing.


----------



## vatse

He has an international driving licence with him also. From the blog I can read that he needed an insurance for Suriname and all other documents what he had were ok for entering. He got a permit for 30 day temporary import for car (not sure if it's correct English name for this) without a problem. At the exit this permit was taken away and that's all.


----------



## Road_UK

Sounds relatively harmless


----------



## Godius

I've been there too, here are some picture that I took on the Surinamese side:



Godius said:


>


----------



## VITORIA MAN

the spanish civil war at the french border in irun


----------



## Sisimoto the HUN

cinxxx said:


> There were many bridges over the Tisa river when that part of Ukraine was actually Slovakia, Poland and Romania. After the war, none was rebuilt. There are very few border crossings between RO and UA.


Why i'm not suprised that you as a Romanian, reflexively not mentioning Hungary at all.. It is too hard for you i guess, but at least try to stick to the historic facts! Intentional disclosure of certain historical periods of the history is not considered as civilized nor clever..

You see, those bridges you mentioning were built, way before those countries even existed and this city was Hungarian in Hungarian kingdome. Wood bridge...What a progress after 50 years.Congrats.
There was modern iron bridge on the Tisza at Máramarossziget, built by Hungarians.

Iron bridge of Máramarossziget(Sighetu Marmatiei) in 1911!


----------



## Laurentzius

Sisimoto the HUN said:


> Why i'm not suprised that you as a Romanian, reflexively not mentioning Hungary at all.. It is too hard for you i guess, but at least try to stick to the historic facts! Intentional disclosure of certain historical periods of the history is not considered as civilized nor clever..
> 
> You see, those bridges you mentioning were built, way before those countries even existed and this city was Hungarian in Hungarian kingdome. Wood bridge...What a progress after 50 years.Congrats.
> There was modern iron bridge on the Tisza at Máramarossziget, built by Hungarians.


Calm your tits! He didn't mention Hungary because it was not pertinent to the matter at hand. I know that it bothers you greatly, but not everything in the area revolves around Hungary. 

Long story short, there were 11 bridges across the Tisa River between Romania and Czechoslovakia during the Interwar period. When exactly those bridges were built and what materials were used is virtually irrelevant. What matters is that the Soviets blew up all those bridges at the end of the WW2, after they annexed the area north of the river from the Czechoslovaks. And so far, this lame one-way wooden bridge is the only one that has been rebuilt. 










Try to focus on that instead of looking everywhere for 'anti-Hungarian' Romanians or whatever paranoia you suffer from.


----------



## Road_UK

Sisimoto the HUN said:


> Why i'm not suprised that you as a Romanian, reflexively not mentioning Hungary at all.. It is too hard for you i guess, but at least try to stick to the historic facts! Intentional disclosure of certain historical periods of the history is not considered as civilized nor clever..
> 
> You see, those bridges you mentioning were built, way before those countries even existed and this city was Hungarian in Hungarian kingdome. Wood bridge...What a progress after 50 years.Congrats.
> There was modern iron bridge on the Tisza at Máramarossziget, built by Hungarians.
> 
> Iron bridge of Máramarossziget(Sighetu Marmatiei) in 1911!


Oh god, the troll from Hungary is back


----------



## cinxxx

*Sisimoto*, you are throwing things on me without even knowing me. The reason is exactly like Laurentzius said. 

And please stop that paranoia, fyi, I have and do not share any of that anti Hungarian sentiment you are implying. I grew up in Banat around German and Hungarian language, besides Romanian. While my Hungarian revolves around just some few words, I have many Hungarian friends. 

My great grandmother from my fathers side was actually Hungarian by the name Füzöszy (not sure if exactly like that spelled), born in former Austria-Hungary. She married a German, Wingert. They had 2 girls, one of them my grandmother, who married a Romanian. So in my family I heard all these 3 languages, predominately German by the elders with whom I also spoke German.

To conclude, I grew up in multi-ethnic Banat, actually despise Romanian nationalism and anti Hungarian propaganda and leave no occasion to combat the people that want to share it with me too.


----------



## xrtn2

edit


----------



## Penn's Woods

You could start one. But isn't it past your bedtime?


----------



## Road_UK

Nah. 02.38am here and still on the road.


----------



## Skyline_

Don't drive and text at the same time...


----------



## Sisimoto the HUN

VITORIA MAN said:


> melilla border (E-MA)


Wow!
It even could be a scene from the World War Z 2 movie...


----------



## Thermo

Zagor666 said:


> Well,if this is not a realy good reason to start a nuclear war then what is it? :cheers:


On the other side, the country is getting bigger with the 'Flemish Bays' project. :banana:










New islands off the coast to combat the dangers of sea level rising. Most islands will become natural reserves (or 'energy islands'), but there'll also be room for holidaymakers (marinas etc.) 

http://www.vlaamsebaaien.com/downloads


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Knokke-Heist as the next Dubai...?


----------



## keokiracer

Thermo said:


> New islands off the coast to combat the dangers of sea level rising. Most islands will become natural reserves (or 'energy islands'), but there'll also be room for holidaymakers (marinas etc.)
> 
> http://www.vlaamsebaaien.com/downloads


Well, those must just be early plans (not an actual project that is going to be executed but someone who thought this was a good idea), otherwise I think I would've heard of this idea 
In that case, I present to you: Haakse Zeedijk:


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Tijuana-San Diego borderline:*



JAVIERCITOO said:


> Tijuana desde el aire
> 
> Tijuana from the air por Ricardobtg, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Tijuana from the air por Ricardobtg, en Flickr


----------



## Penn's Woods

Skyline_ said:


> Don't drive and text at the same time...


Maybe Europe now has these: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=107400061&postcount=22099


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Juárez City and El Paso borderline:*



Looker said:


> Bienvenidos a LatinoAmerica :cheers:
> 1.
> 
> 
> 2.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Skyline_ said:


> Don't drive and text at the same time...


How do you know he was? He could have stopped.


----------



## spoonman2

Here are a few more shots of the San Diego/Tijuana border crossing, which is the busiest land crossing in the world.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Such a crazy looking place, must take ages to get though!


----------



## italystf

Is possible to cross from Honk Kong to People's Republic of China (and viceversa) with private cars?


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Yes, but you can't drive in Hong Kong with a car with the steering wheel on the left. So basically, you can't drive your Chinese private car to HK unless it has the steering wheel on the "wrong" side for Chinese roads.

This fact annoys many Chinese businessman that want to drive their private limos or sports cars to HK, but they can't.


----------



## MaXxImE

​


----------



## alserrod

Nice picture.

As can be seen , recent (and no so recent) motorways do not have custom booths


----------



## Moravian

Some pictures (with the text in German) from the eastern part of Austria near Bratislava:

http://orf.at/stories/2204870/2204555/
http://orf.at/stories/2204870/2204669/
http://orf.at/stories/2204870/2204690/


----------



## cinxxx

^^I was in the area, visited Devin, Bratislava, Hainburg and the Tripoint. 
Nice places. Some of the pictures are pretty much the same as some of mine


----------



## EU-Europa

bogdymol said:


> ^^ Yes, but you can't drive in Hong Kong with a car with the steering wheel on the left. So basically, you can't drive your Chinese private car to HK unless it has the steering wheel on the "wrong" side for Chinese roads.
> 
> This fact annoys many Chinese businessman that want to drive their private limos or sports cars to HK, but they can't.


That's ridiculous. I guess Hong Kong is probably using it as a traffic calming measure.


----------



## xrtn2

Brazil,Peru



















Brazil,Peru,Bolivia


----------



## xrtn2

Brazil, Paraguay


----------



## xrtn2

^^


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^What's "floresta"?


----------



## Verso

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^What's "floresta"?


(Penn's) Wood(s). Or f(l)orest(a).


----------



## Penn's Woods

Ah. I was thinking something more floral.


----------



## alserrod

Forest is a Latin word indeed.

Fôret in French


----------



## Penn's Woods

The L threw me off. And I thought "forest" or "wood" in Latin was/is "sylva." As in "Pennsylvania." Or "Penn's Woods." :-D


----------



## g.spinoza

The latin root forest- means "foreigner". Everything outside the ancient cities, covered in woods, was foreigner. In Italian you can say "forestiero" to a foreigner (more used word would be "straniero").


----------



## Nikkodemo

g.spinoza said:


> The latin root forest- means "foreigner". Everything outside the ancient cities, covered in woods, was foreigner. In Italian you can say "forestiero" to a foreigner (more used word would be "straniero").


And for spanish we say: "Forastero".


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> The L threw me off. And I thought "forest" or "wood" in Latin was/is "sylva." As in "Pennsylvania." Or "Penn's Woods." :-D


In Spanish "selva" means a dark forest, something like if you are in the jungle or so.


----------



## Skyline_

Nikkodemo said:


> And for spanish we say: "Forastero".


We say xenos. :banana:


----------



## alserrod

Forastero means foreing or just someone not from that place or region. Even one person just arrived to a city wherever he comes is a "forastero"


----------



## italystf

Border controversies in the northern part fo South America.


----------



## volodaaaa

italystf said:


> Border controversies in the northern part fo South America.


The map is very badly made. It seems Surinam claims 1/3 of Guyana and almost entire French Guyana at first glance. Territorial disputes should have been in contrast colour but not in grey (which is contrast itself, but often represents no-data or something irrelevant, we don't have to be focused on).


----------



## parcdesprinces

alserrod said:


> Forest is a Latin word indeed.
> 
> F*ô*ret in French


:nono:


For*ê*t in French.


----------



## CNGL

I was about to say so. I learned that in French when a ^ appears above a letter it represents a missing s.

At one time I thougt French Guiana was independent. I think somewhat I missed the "French" part, and I was suprised to find that on a inset in a map of France. This makes the newly built bridge over Oyapock river the "longest" bridge in the world, as it connects France and Brazil :troll:.


----------



## italystf

CNGL said:


> I was about to say so. I learned that in French when a ^ appears above a letter it represents a missing s.
> 
> At one time I thougt French Guiana was independent. I think somewhat I missed the "French" part, and I was suprised to find that on a inset in a map of France. This makes the newly built bridge over Oyapock river the "longest" bridge in the world, as it connects France and Brazil :troll:.


Well, British Columbia isn't part of UK, so it wouldn't be surprising if French Guyana wasn't part of France.

I think most French people would have a hard time in listing all countries that border their own.


----------



## volodaaaa

I have heard, that e.g. high school leaving examination took place in every French territories at once, at one exact time. It means 2.00 AM in French Guyana. Is that true, or is it just a rumour?

Also, Reunion was the first place where Euro started to be valid in cash transactions at 1.1.2002 /because of time zones/


----------



## Road_UK

Well, it's just as much France as European France. The Dutch king has visited the Caribbean parts of the Netherlands recently, followed by a visit to Venezuela, as Venezuela is deemed to be the largest neighbour of the Netherlands.


----------



## parcdesprinces

italystf said:


> I think most French people would have a hard time in listing all countries that border their own.


Well, not that much. Here they are: Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Monaco, Spain, Andorra, the Netherlands (in St Martin), Suriname and Brazil.

Voilà ! :bowtie:


----------



## Verso

And the UK in the Channel Tunnel.


----------



## MrAronymous

parcdesprinces said:


> Well, not that much. Here they are: Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Monaco, Spain, Andorra, the Netherlands St Maarten, Suriname and Brazil.
> 
> Voilà ! :bowtie:


Almost right.


----------



## volodaaaa

Verso said:


> And the UK in the Channel Tunnel.


And do not forget the nautical borders :lol:


----------



## parcdesprinces

volodaaaa said:


> And do not forget the nautical borders :lol:


Well, France has maritime borders with: Belgium, the UK, Jersey (UK), Guernesey (UK), Spain, Monaco, Italy, Canada, Barbados, Dominica, Montserrat (UK), St Lucia, Venezuela, St Martin (Netherlands), Anguilla (UK), Suriname, Brazil, Comoros, Madagascar, Mauritius, Seychelles, Australia, Fidji, Norfolk Island (Australia), Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, Cook Islands, Pitcairn Islands (UK), Kiribati, Samoa, Tokelau (New Zealand), Tonga, Tuvalu and Heard Island & McDonald Islands (Australia).

Voilà ! :bowtie:

Hope I didn't miss anyone. (IMHO, enough neighbours to create the _"France and its Neighbours Games"_ :yes: )


----------



## xrtn2

alserrod said:


> In Spanish "selva" means a dark forest, something like if you are in the jungle or so.


Same in portuguese.


----------



## xrtn2

Brazil/Paraguay












*Foz do Iguaçu(Brazil) to Paraguay by street view.*










*
Itaipu Dam.*


----------



## Godius

Impressive structure.


----------



## xrtn2

*Brazil/Argentina Bridge

There's no road on Argentinian side:lol::*


----------



## italystf

volodaaaa said:


> I have heard, that e.g. high school leaving examination took place in every French territories at once, at one exact time. It means 2.00 AM in French Guyana. Is that true, or is it just a rumour?


It make sense. Otherwise French-Guyanese students would be able to e-mail their collegues in _France mètropolitaine_, who already did the exam and have the solutions.
However it would feel extremely strange for me to have an exam (or any kind of bureocratic procedure) in the middle of the night.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Is 'aduana' Brazilian Portuguese for customs?

Until last year some of the exams in Hong Kong were still shared with the UK and the same so-called exam bodies were used, and in theory you could get in severe trouble if you posted on forums like 'The Student Room' too much about the exams until they were over in Hong Kong. In reality such posts were just deleted quickly.


----------



## Cal_Escapee

Nikkodemo said:


> *Mexico - United States border:
> 
> The Tijuana Airport (Mexico) and several industrial buildings in San Diego (USA)*
> 
> 
> 
> 0059309 por alanterra, en Flickr





> *Cross the Border, Then Fly*
> By CONOR DOUGHERTY
> Nov. 17, 2013 7:55 p.m. ET
> 
> SAN DIEGO—This city has spent decades looking for ways to expand its cramped, one-runway airport. Today the region is edging closer to a solution, but it comes with a catch: It's in Mexico.
> 
> Developers backed by a group of U.S. and Mexican investors said they are close to breaking ground on *a privately owned pedestrian bridge that would allow Americans and foreign travelers to cross the border directly into and out of Tijuana's General Abelardo L. Rodriguez International Airport, or TIJ.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A razor-wire fence separates the airport in Tijuana, Mexico, from California. Developers aim to build a pedestrian bridge to make it more accessible. Sandy Huffaker for The Wall Street Journal
> 
> It's not a done deal, but if the final hurdles are cleared, the for-profit project—whose investors include real-estate mogul Sam Zell—would be the latest in a series of border improvements that have strengthened the economic ties between the neighboring cities.
> 
> The project has been in the planning phases for years. It has approvals from both the U.S. and Mexican federal governments and has overcome most permitting and environmental obstacles.
> 
> But other important steps remain. One is financing. The other is crafting an arrangement with the U.S. government that would clear the way for the private facility to be staffed with public employees from U.S. Customs and Border Protection . . . .
> 
> The bridge would have a crossing fee of roughly $13 to $17, investors said, and the facility would feel much like a modern airport terminal. The first phase, projected to cost around $50 million, includes retail shops and an adjacent parking lot.
> 
> But a terminal this is not. Passengers going to TIJ from the U.S. wouldn't be able to check in until they have hauled themselves and their bags across the football-field-long crossing into the actual airport.
> 
> And there won't be any kind of special border-crossing treatment, aside from the obvious convenience of having a direct crossing between the U.S. and Tijuana's airport. U.S. customs will be at the base of the bridge on the U.S. side. Mexican customs will be on the other side in Mexico . . . .
> 
> Otay-Tijuana Venture said its market research shows that of the roughly 4 million people who fly into and out of TIJ each year, more than half cross the border one way or the other. That includes Mexicans traveling into and out of the U.S. as well as many Southern Californians who use TIJ for travel . . . .
> 
> The TIJ flights are much cheaper than in the U.S., Mr. Carlin said, and the airport has far more direct flights to the interior of Mexico . . . .
> 
> *


*
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles...0226844190?KEYWORDS=San+Diego+Tijuana+airport*


----------



## parcdesprinces

volodaaaa said:


> I have heard, that e.g. high school leaving examination took place in every French territories at once, at one exact time. It means 2.00 AM in French Guyana. Is that true, or is it just a rumour?


:nuts: 
Except Réunion Island (the time zone there being Paris +2hours in June) where indeed it's true + maybe Mayotte ..but for the rest, AFAIK it's obviously a rumor, since first of all the examination questions are not the same in Metropolitan France as in overseas France & abroad.
Secondly, in some French overseas territories and in most of French schools abroad, the Baccalauréat (A level/end of high school diploma), doesn't even take place the same week (or month) as for the schools in Metropolitan France. For example, in some southern hemisphere territories, such as New Caledonia, it takes place in November (instead of June in Metropolitan France).

Here is the Baccalauréat schedule in overseas France and for the French schools abroad:


----------



## Cal_Escapee

Canada (left) - US (right)









http://www.viator.com/photos/Niagar...de-Tour-and-Maid-of-the-Mist-Boat-Ride/996295


----------



## Astimar

Skyline_ said:


> We say xenos. :banana:


Yep, the root word for xenophobia, along with φόβος (fear), meaning "fear of foreign(er)"


----------



## alserrod

In Brazil, another "pare" signal, 

are they quite often?


----------



## volodaaaa

Are there any remnants of border checks of interwar-Poland?


----------



## alserrod

parcdesprinces said:


> :nuts:
> Except Réunion Island (the time zone there being Paris +2hours in June) where indeed it's true + maybe Mayotte ..but for the rest, AFAIK it's obviously a rumor, since first of all the examination questions are not the same in Metropolitan France as in overseas France & abroad.
> Secondly, in some French overseas territories and in most of French schools abroad, the Baccalauréat (A level/end of high school diploma), doesn't even take place the same week (or month) as for the schools in Metropolitan France. For example, in some southern hemisphere territories, such as New Caledonia, it takes place in November (instead of June in Metropolitan France).



By the way... in Spain when there are major sport venues that must be played at the same time or so, Canary islands matches start one hour in advance just to coincide in the time with the rest of the territory.

But... in a poll day, you can vote 9:00 to 20:00. The same timetable in Canary but with local time.
It is forbidden to give any result or queries before 20:00. At that time all TV and media will give first results but never one second before.
Between 20:00 and 21:00 they have to put a different program in Canary islands due to polling stations remains opened... 
That has no sense because now with internet any citizen from there can see first results in the rest of the country while polling stations keep still open.


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

A border crossing from Latvia into Lithuania:
























As you can clearly see, both are modern 21st century European Union countries. There are such luxuries as actual asphalt and (although broken) streetlights! But only on Latvian side...
Besides the boundary post, nothing says that it's a border crossing.
The only road sign is Latvia's "You are entering Jelgava region".


----------



## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> By the way... in Spain when there are major sport venues that must be played at the same time or so, Canary islands matches start one hour in advance just to coincide in the time with the rest of the territory.
> 
> But... in a poll day, you can vote 9:00 to 20:00. The same timetable in Canary but with local time.
> It is forbidden to give any result or queries before 20:00. At that time all TV and media will give first results but never one second before.
> Between 20:00 and 21:00 they have to put a different program in Canary islands due to polling stations remains opened...
> That has no sense because now with internet any citizen from there can see first results in the rest of the country while polling stations keep still open.


As a bit of a politics junkie, I know that in Francethey have areas on time zones west of continental France (Guyana, Guadeloupe...) vote on Saturday instead of Sunday so that the polls on the mainland are the last ones to close so that the media can report the result at that point.

Canada used to sort of blockade results on broadcast media - 20 years ago, the US cable channel that primarily covers Congress (C-SPAN) was promising coverage from the CBC on the evening of a Canadian election but they ended up not showing anything until 11 p.m. Eastern time, when polls closed on the West Coast. I think they've sort of given up on that since the Internet's made it pointless. (They could try to block websites, but there'd be a free speech issue and I think the Supreme Court of Canada has said as much....)

(Which reminds me, French-language websites in Belgium and Switzerland during the last French elections were heavily promoting the fact that they'd have the results before they could be legally released in France, claiming they were not obligated to respect French law on that point and had a right to inform their Belgian and Swiss readers... then pretending to be shocked when the abnormal increase in traffic to their sites during the hour or so before France's polls closed practically crashed them. On le Monde's forum, some of us were coming up with inventive ways of hinting at what we'd seen on those sites and seeing how long the mods would leave it up there. All a bit ridiculous.)

US media can't be prohibited from communicating what they know - the First Amendment and all - but for several decades they've been self-censoring: not reporting results from any state before that state's polls have closed.


----------



## Kemo

volodaaaa said:


> Are there any remnants of border checks of interwar-Poland?


They are rare.
http://maps.google.pl/maps?q=Barano...4,17.013187&cbp=12,0,,0,0&photoid=po-55451996
http://maps.google.pl/maps?q=Barano...6,17.065845&cbp=12,0,,0,0&photoid=po-95883900


----------



## OulaL

parcdesprinces said:


> Well, France has maritime borders with: Belgium, the UK, Jersey (UK), Guernesey (UK), Spain, Monaco, Italy, Canada, Barbados, Dominica, Montserrat (UK), St Lucia, Venezuela, St Martin (Netherlands), Anguilla (UK), Suriname, Brazil, Comoros, Madagascar, Mauritius, Seychelles, Australia, Fidji, Norfolk Island (Australia), Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, Cook Islands, Pitcairn Islands (UK), Kiribati, Samoa, Tokelau (New Zealand), Tonga, Tuvalu and Heard Island & McDonald Islands (Australia).
> 
> Voilà ! :bowtie:
> 
> Hope I didn't miss anyone. (IMHO, enough neighbours to create the _"France and its Neighbours Games"_ :yes: )


What about antarctic land claims? France has one that shares long borders with Australia.

If one point with no length at all is considered "a border", then France also shares a one point border (at the south pole) with all other countries with antarctic land claims, namely Argentina, Chile, New Zealand, Norway and UK. Of these Argentina is disputable though, since its claim is completely overlapped with those of Chile and UK. Does France recognise these claims?


----------



## Escher

alserrod said:


> In Brazil, another "pare" signal,
> 
> are they quite often?


It's the regulamentary stop sign here, STOP is not used anywhere in Americas except in english spoken countries or european colonies. In spanish spoken countries are used PARE or ALTO (think Mexico uses the later one).


----------



## Escher

DanielFigFoz said:


> Is 'aduana' Brazilian Portuguese for customs?


Yep.


----------



## Observador_SJC

alserrod said:


> In Brazil, another "pare" signal,
> 
> are they quite often?


Yes they are, we don't have STOP signals.

I thought we were the only ones, but in my last trip to Canada I noticed that they use the Arrêt signal in Quebec province.


----------



## MrAkumana

xrtn2 said:


> *Brazil/Argentina Bridge
> 
> There's no road on Argentinian side:lol::*


*There is a road, but not paved: 
*







​
oficial info (in spanish): http://www.gendarmeria.gov.ar/pasos/brasil/fichpepgua.html

*
This is the story behind this no sense:
*
Actually the brazilian side wasn't paved either until 2010. The idea was to pave the road linking Paraiso in Brazil and National Route 14 in Argentina. (around 8 km on brazilian side and 50 km on argentinean side had to be paved) to divert traffic heading to brazilian beaches out of the busy border crossings located more to the north. https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=...lDEDaWLvSjA9EA;Fe3saf4d-BrM_A&mra=pr&t=m&z=11

The key thing that delayed the paving on the argentinean side (which nowdays it's finally being done) was that the bridge shown on the pics was found out to be damaged due to floods and uncapable of handling the heavy traffic a paved road would brigh. Moreover statictics shown that it remained underwater due to floods several weeks each year. 


Just on last July both braziliean and argentinean parlaments agreed on building a new bridge, but it must be done at a slightly new location and be quite higher due to the floods. As of Today there's no date for the building and opening of the new bridge. More info on the new bridge (in portuguese): http://www.iirsa.org/proyectos/detalle_proyecto.aspx?h=1320


----------



## Reivajar

^^ Wow, probably it is because that area of Argentina is quite remote from an Argentinian perspective, but the amount of forest conserved in Argentina is radically massive compared to the adjacent Brazilian and Paraguayan areas. However I see that in more recent satellite images it starts to be cut off too.


----------



## parcdesprinces

Penn's Woods said:


> Which reminds me, French-language websites in Belgium and Switzerland during the last French elections were heavily promoting the fact that they'd have the results before they could be legally released in France, claiming they were not obligated to respect French law on that point and had a right to inform their Belgian and Swiss readers... then pretending to be shocked when the abnormal increase in traffic to their sites during the hour or so before France's polls closed practically crashed them.


Indeed ! :devil:



parcdesprinces said:


> LOL :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The RTBF (belgian francophone public TV) website was down few minutes ago (and now it's only limited to the French elections), because of too many connections from France, since the Belgians, Swiss etc media are "allowed" to give partial results and the final results in the afternoon while french media must wait 8 pm.


----------



## parcdesprinces

OulaL said:


> What about antarctic land claims? France has one that shares long borders with Australia.
> 
> If one point with no length at all is considered "a border", then France also shares a one point border (at the south pole) with all other countries with antarctic land claims, namely Argentina, Chile, New Zealand, Norway and UK. Of these Argentina is disputable though, since its claim is completely overlapped with those of Chile and UK. Does France recognise these claims?


Not sure about France's position regarding the other claims, but for sure France recognizes its own sovereignty over the Adélie Land ! :colbert: :gunz:


----------



## Penn's Woods

parcdesprinces said:


> Indeed ! :devil:


Wait, you saved a screen cap?


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ Of course I did! :yes:


----------



## Cal_Escapee

OulaL said:


> What about antarctic land claims? France has one that shares long borders with Australia.
> 
> If one point with no length at all is considered "a border", then France also shares a one point border (at the south pole) with all other countries with antarctic land claims, namely Argentina, Chile, New Zealand, Norway and UK. Of these Argentina is disputable though, since its claim is completely overlapped with those of Chile and UK. Does France recognise these claims?


As a signatory of the Antarctic Treaty, France, like all other signatories, has accepted the following Treaty language:



> 1. Nothing contained in the present Treaty shall be interpreted as:
> 
> (a) a renunciation by any Contracting Party of previously asserted rights of or claims to territorial sovereignty in Antarctica;
> 
> (b) a renunciation or diminution by any Contracting Party of any basis of claim to territorial sovereignty in Antarctica which it may have whether as a result of its activities or those of its nationals in Antarctica, or otherwise;
> 
> (c) prejudicing the position of any Contracting Party as regards its recognition or nonrecognition of any other State's right of or claim or basis of claim to territorial sovereignty in Antarctica.
> 
> 2. No acts or activities taking place while the present Treaty is in force shall constitute a basis for asserting, supporting or denying a claim to territorial sovereignty in Antarctica. No new claim, or enlargement of an existing claim, to territorial sovereignty shall be asserted while the present Treaty is in force . . . .


http://www.nsf.gov/geo/plr/antarct/anttrty.jsp

This effectively means that, while the signatories may continue to assert pre-existing claims, those claims are of no practical effect while the Treaty exists (and the Treaty is likely to be renewed for the foreseeable future--nobody wants the land rush that allowing it to expire would cause).

Actually, Argentina may have one of the strongest claims since one of the traditional bases for a claim is to have established a self-sustaining population of one's citizens and Argentina is the only claimant which has caused a number of its citizens to give birth at a station within its claim.


----------



## WB2010

*New border crossing between Poland and Ukraine*








On Monday 2 December a new road border crossing between Poland and Ukraine opened at Budomierz, close to the town of Lubaczów, some 400 km south-east of Warsaw. The construction costs were entirely covered by the Polish government (99 million zloty, i. e. 23,5 million euro) and the European Union (almost 47 million zloty - some 11 million euro). The new border crossing is located on the Polish territory. The Ukrainian president Janukovich was expected to participate in the inauguration, but as his power is crumbling he didn't come. 
Now there are 7 road border crossings between Poland and Ukraine.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ How many crossings with Belarus are there?


----------



## WB2010

^^
Currently there are 7 of them (I mean road border crossings). My favourite one is in the Białowieża Forest, close to the small town of Białowieża:


----------



## Mirror's Edge

*Swedish-Norway-Border 1 630km long*

This was before Sweden changed to right hand traffic in 1967.









From here


Snowmobile on the border.


----------



## italystf

The new Iron curtain: EU (free world) - Putin's empire (Russia\Belarus)

FIN-RUS border
https://maps.google.it/maps?ll=60.9...=MTHXSh6msUCqFzTSyAGy-w&cbp=12,215.91,,0,8.68

Lithuanian road touching Belarus
https://maps.google.it/maps?ll=54.2...=SWrR7KazgEfNl-BAU5Vwvg&cbp=12,107.36,,0,11.7


----------



## alserrod

Quite interesting second one.

Look at this poing. Road is still in Spain within several kilometres and the path lane is in France. Nowadays there is no difference either controls... but paved road remains close to border for a long time and paths and shoulders in the northern side are in France

https://maps.google.es/?ll=42.95147...=ARH9NpDMZ7v3vb4ndiOIGg&cbp=12,292.32,,0,10.6


----------



## Nikkodemo

Mirror's Edge said:


>


What a road, you can't see the end of it!!


----------



## Nikkodemo

*More pics of the USA-Mexico border in Tijuana:*



magm said:


> If there isnt any problem with the creators of this thread, ill post a few more pictures.
> 
> Puerta Mexico. Entering from San Ysidro, CA (San Diego County) to Tijuana.
> 
> 
> The Border, next to the Puerta Mexico.


----------



## Nikkodemo

*More pics of the USA-Mexico border in Tijuana, we can see the "corner" of the border:*



magm said:


> "Tijuana is the corner where dreams bounce off a country in need of peace"
> Tijuana react


----------



## italystf

Nikkodemo said:


> *More pics of the USA-Mexico border in Tijuana, we can see the "corner" of the border:*


It doesnt't seem a strong obstacle. Are there guards 24\7 standing on the beach?


----------



## MaXxImE

*Sanlúcar de Guadiana (Huelva-Spain) - Alcoutim ( Faro-Portugal)​*








Sanlúcar de Guadiana (Huelva) - Alcoutim (Portugal) by IgnacioCanillo, on Flickr


----------



## alserrod

Is there a ferry (or vessel or whatever) regular service?


----------



## Nikkodemo

italystf said:


> It doesnt't seem a strong obstacle. Are there guards 24\7 standing on the beach?


Yes, they are always watching that corner through patrols or cameras.


----------



## MaXxImE

alserrod said:


> Is there a ferry (or vessel or whatever) regular service?


No, there is a road 20km north of both cities










Or this...


----------



## DanielFigFoz

alserrod said:


> Is there a ferry (or vessel or whatever) regular service?


No crossing of any sort there at all as far as I know, as Maxxime said. Understandable back when the border was relatively closed under fascism but it's been 40 years.


----------



## italystf

DanielFigFoz said:


> No crossing of any sort there at all as far as I know, as Maxxime said. Understandable back when the border was relatively closed under fascism but it's been 40 years.


Fascism was on both sides, except for a brief period in 1974-75.


----------



## tonylondon

I think it must be a bridge between them villages under european union rules...:cheers:


----------



## alserrod

It should, indeed.


----------



## alserrod

MaXxImE said:


> Or this...



I think this is the best Border crossing picture even posted in this thread

:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

italystf said:


> Fascism was on both sides, except for a brief period in 1974-75.


I am fully aware of that.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

italystf said:


> Fascism was on both sides, except for a brief period in 1974-75.


I read in a Portuguese border blog once that during that period there was some fear in the Portuguese government that Spain would invade.


----------



## pai nosso

*Pomarão (Portugal) / El Granado (Spain)*



MaXxImE said:


>




*Pomarão (Portugal) / El Granado (Spain)* »»» international connection supported by the EU in 2011



















Source: http://portugalfotografiaaerea.blogspot.pt/2011/05/pomarao.html









Source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/19440245

P.S.: On the 1st and 2nd photo, Spain is only on the right side of the dam and of the new bridge.



*20 Km north*








Source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13961260?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com


45 Km south (Vila Real de Santo António / Ayamonte)








Source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/77984?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com


----------



## italystf

DanielFigFoz said:


> I read in a Portuguese border blog once that during that period there was some fear in the Portuguese government that Spain would invade.


I watched a film (more a comedy than an historical movie) about some guys from France travelling by car to Portugal in the imediate aftermath of the 1974 revolution.
When they arrive at the border with Spain, guards told them that they can't cross because only people going to Spain are allowed and not those in transit to Portugal (and how they knew that they were going to Portugal?)
So, they ask to a villager how to do and he suggested to take a dirt track in the forest to avoid the checkpoint. Obviously it wasn't possible in real life, first because the border was probably well patrolled beck then, second because without an entry stamp to Spain they won't be able to leave the country legally.
When they are entering Portugal, they found that Spaniards have closed the border and they have to wait a couple of days. When the border reopens, they're detained by Spanish because they found in the car a badge with a hammer and sickle and they were suspected to be revolutionaries. After a lot of questining, they're let to go into Portugal (and nobody noticed the lack of entry stamp...)

I assume that Europeans did need passports to visit the fascist Spain and Portugal, if it was possible just with ID (I don't think so) it's another story.


----------



## xrtn2

MaXxImE said:


> No, there is a road 20km north of both cities
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or this...


:cheers::cheers:


----------



## xrtn2

MaXxImE said:


> *Sanlúcar de Guadiana (Huelva-Spain) - Alcoutim ( Faro-Portugal)​*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sanlúcar de Guadiana (Huelva) - Alcoutim (Portugal) by IgnacioCanillo, on Flickr


Its really beauty place.:cheers:


----------



## xrtn2

Mexico/Guatemala


----------



## xrtn2

Mexico/Belize


----------



## xrtn2

next


----------



## alserrod

Houses close to customs belong to Georgia?

Do they have facilities to cross the border?


----------



## alserrod

Not road but border crossing.

Just a local news about cross-country skiing in Candanchu-Le Somport.

Mainly in Spain but partially in France

http://www.elperiodicodearagon.com/noticias/deportes/circuito-mas-clasico_906041.html

and... as said, available at street view

https://maps.google.es/?ll=42.78387...=pUHJOehIIgUA5zeBTo8XdA&cbp=12,164.62,,1,5.44

Picture is taken in the cross country skiing path in France looking to Spain. If you try to "advance" you will notice is not possible because an international border. Although pictures in French side are not many in that area, you have to get the general view and approach to that place in the Spanish or French side to see it. Images are not linked in google.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Haven't seen something like this before: Ataturk monument at the Gürbulak (TR) border crossing with Iran.


----------



## darko06

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Turkey-Georgia border crossing near Batumi. :nuts:


According to the November issue of the Architect (The Magazine of the American Institute of Architects) , the architect of this interesting building is Juergen Mayer H., 48, born in Stuttgart, studied at University of Stuttgart, the Cooper Union and Princeton University.


----------



## f.ostman

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Turkey-Georgia border crossing near Batumi. :nuts:


I have tried to cross there with a Georgoan rental car. They wouldn't let us pass...  But I have both exit and entry stamp from Georgia without the corresponding Turkish stamps in my passport. 

We also were at the beach and couldn't see any border markers, fences or guards. Not sure what would have happened if we would try to just walk along the beach into Turkey...


----------



## Ingenioren

^ You would be in trouble... :nuts:


----------



## italystf




----------



## Moravian

CZ/AT border - shopping center Hate (the route E59):


----------



## verreme

^^ Wow. I had absolutely no idea of such amount of kitsch concentrated in such a random place.


----------



## snt3000

New Georgia/Armenia crossing, under construction.









http://www.dezeen.com/2012/07/27/ninotsminda-border-checkpoint-by-luka-machablishvili/


----------



## alserrod

Mesmerizing!


----------



## an-148

Eulanthe said:


> Quote:
> - Ivanica / Gornji Brgat
> For goods traffic? There's no space there - when I was there, Gornji Brgat had no possibilities to clear Customs, and I didn't see any sign of clearance facilities at Ivanica too - has something changed?


they will build a new common office on the flat ground near the present Bosnian office


----------



## Palance

Where? The first serious possibility on the BiH-side should be in Ivanica itself.


----------



## Christophorus

^^

Probably on this place, if i remember correctly thats pretty even terrain:

http://goo.gl/maps/R4wiH



an-148 said:


> they will build a new common office on the flat ground near the present Bosnian office


do you have a source for this?


----------



## an-148

Christophorus said:


> ^^
> 
> Probably on this place, if i remember correctly thats pretty even terrain:
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/R4wiH
> 
> 
> 
> do you have a source for this?


yes the terrain is even (location a bit left on your picture: 42.659914,18.162759 )

sources: I live in Ivanica for more than half of the year and the inhabitants showed me the place


----------



## x-type

this Ninotsminda thing is amazing! ois it u/c, finished, planned, what?


----------



## Eulanthe

And yet apparently under Schengen law, you can't have controls on non-Schengen territory. Still - I guess this might spur BiH/HR into building joint controls in other places where space is limited. The crossing at Slovanski Brod would be an ideal candidate for a joint crossing.

Another question for those that know : does anyone know why France appears to apply no exit check at Calais for foot passengers to Dover? During my last crossing, there wasn't even a desk available for French officers to conduct an exit check from Schengen. 

It makes a mockery of Schengen if we have ultra strict controls on some borders and almost invisible controls on others.


----------



## Palance

The British don't have exit checks either. I have not seen any on my last ferry trip from Harwich to Hoek van Holland last month. The Dutch however did check outgoing passengers.

I don't recall exit checks as well even leaving US or Canada (or UK) by plane.


----------



## bogdymol

When I traveled by train from Paris to London the border check was done in Paris railway station by both French and British officers.

When I traveled by plane from New York directly to Budapest, Hungary, there was no exit check when leaving USA.


----------



## Road_UK

Eulanthe said:


> And yet apparently under Schengen law, you can't have controls on non-Schengen territory. Still - I guess this might spur BiH/HR into building joint controls in other places where space is limited. The crossing at Slovanski Brod would be an ideal candidate for a joint crossing.
> 
> Another question for those that know : does anyone know why France appears to apply no exit check at Calais for foot passengers to Dover? During my last crossing, there wasn't even a desk available for French officers to conduct an exit check from Schengen.
> 
> It makes a mockery of Schengen if we have ultra strict controls on some borders and almost invisible controls on others.


It's unusual to have exit checks at either Dover or Calais, although it does happen sporadically.


----------



## Skopje/Скопје

The recently reconstructed border crossing between Republic of Macedonia and Kosovo. 

The number of lanes (four for entering and three for exiting the country) was increased with the reconstruction. This year nearly two million people cross the border in both directions. Photo by MIA.mk.


----------



## ionutz_08

Sisimoto the HUN said:


> There is not much sense for the road signs and painted lanes..Yet.


Why is that?


----------



## los77

*Skalité [SK] - Zwardoń [PL]​*Date of foto: *2013 12 24 *​


----------



## Skyline_

ionutz_08 said:


> Why is that?


Because you can construct a road only within your nation's borders! :lol:


----------



## Road_UK

Skyline_ said:


> Because you can construct a road only within your nation's borders! :lol:


Not necessarily. Some roads straddle through other countries. In Germany the road from Aachen to Monschau for example straddles into Belgium. And I think there's something in Switzerland... In Kerkrade, Netherlands German and Dutch roads don't take much notice of land borders, and are continuously crossing each other. And then there's of course the Baarle Nassau/Hartog situation where the Dutch are throwing their bricks and tarmac all over the Belgian place.


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Not necessarily. Some roads straddle through other countries. In Germany the road from Aachen to Monschau for example straddles into Belgium. And I think there's something in Switzerland... In Kerkrade, Netherlands German and Dutch roads don't take much notice of land borders, and are continuously crossing each other. And then there's of course the Baarle Nassau/Hartog situation where the Dutch are throwing their bricks and tarmac all over the Belgian place.


This implies a certain degree of agreement between countries. Such agreements are required also to finish a road that comes from the other country. If one condition is not met, the other can easily be not met too.


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> Not necessarily. Some roads straddle through other countries. In Germany the road from Aachen to Monschau for example straddles into Belgium. And I think there's something in Switzerland... In Kerkrade, Netherlands German and Dutch roads don't take much notice of land borders, and are continuously crossing each other. And then there's of course the Baarle Nassau/Hartog situation where the Dutch are throwing their bricks and tarmac all over the Belgian place.


The Strada di Osimo (Slovenian road n°402) crosses into Italy for about 1,5km.


----------



## italystf

In other cases roads cross borders because they're older than borders themselves.


----------



## Verso

Road_UK said:


> Not necessarily. Some roads straddle through other countries. In Germany the road from Aachen to Monschau for example straddles into Belgium. And I think there's something in Switzerland... In Kerkrade, Netherlands German and Dutch roads don't take much notice of land borders, and are continuously crossing each other. And then there's of course the Baarle Nassau/Hartog situation where the Dutch are throwing their bricks and tarmac all over the Belgian place.


Belgium doesn't build roads in Amsterdam though.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

italystf said:


> In other cases roads cross borders because they're older than borders themselves.


That's probably the case most of the time.


----------



## Kemo

g.spinoza said:


> This implies a certain degree of agreement between countries.


A very good example:
http://maps.google.pl/maps?saddr=Tr...FVe3CAMdjnXiAA&t=h&mra=me&mrsp=1,0&sz=14&z=12
Road between Hradek nad Nisou (CZ) and Zittau (D) that goes through Poland was financed by Germany and Czech Republic.


----------



## Verso

Kemo said:


> Road between Hradek nad Nisou (CZ) and Zittau (D) that goes through Poland was financed by Germany and Czech Republic.


Croats could learn something from you. :cheers:


----------



## CNGL

italystf said:


> In other cases roads cross borders because they're older than borders themselves.


Yup! I can think of a road that was cut off by the new Kazakh-Kyrgyz border when the Soviet Union collapsed. Since then Kazakhstan has built a bypass so now it avoids Kyrgyzstan.


----------



## darko06

Verso said:


> Croats could learn something from you. :cheers:


Germany, Czech Republic and Poland all are EU and Schengen members. In the other hand, Croatia is EU member where Bosnia and Herzegovina (Neum) or Serbia (Bačka Palanka to Šid through Ilok) are not. So dear friend, please explain carefully what exactly should Croatia learn? Perhaps to lobby in the EU how to build missing motorway links between Croatia and other EU countries through Slovenia (Gruškovje-Ptuj; Jelšane-Postojna and Starod-Trieste)?:lol:


----------



## Verso

darko06 said:


> please explain carefully what exactly should Croatia learn?


If you want a motorway to Italy, bring money on the table. :cheers:


----------



## alserrod

this point

https://maps.google.es/?ll=42.54650...=dxVxgjgF3mXoH9KvqpRZgQ&cbp=12,32.01,,0,18.88

is a border between Andorra and Spain. A Schenger border by the way and France is not far from there indeed.

Paved road is Andorra, unpaved path is Spain. The path goes to nowhere. Maybe people working on countryshires or so could use it but it really arrives to nowhere.

I wonder myself why Andorra paved until the border when they knew that Spain wouldn't built a road in their side (at least for a long, long time)


----------



## Reivajar

alserrod said:


> this point
> 
> https://maps.google.es/?ll=42.54650...=dxVxgjgF3mXoH9KvqpRZgQ&cbp=12,32.01,,0,18.88
> 
> is a border between Andorra and Spain. A Schenger border by the way and France is not far from there indeed.
> 
> Paved road is Andorra, unpaved path is Spain. The path goes to nowhere. Maybe people working on countryshires or so could use it but it really arrives to nowhere.
> 
> I wonder myself why Andorra paved until the border when they knew that Spain wouldn't built a road in their side (at least for a long, long time)


I am not sure, but I think you can take the unpaved road to Tor (province of Lleida, Spain) and finally to Alins where you can find a paved road (L-510). However, I have no idea if there is any kind of restriction along that road.


----------



## alserrod

What I wonder is if it is possible to drive while all the year.

It is an area quite controlled (no customs but so few people are there that any movement in the surroundings could be suspected as smuggling. He will be checked to have a look to his goods.


Anyway, if a road would be built at some other time... it will be to go to Os de Civis (if you are in Os de Civis and you go across the mountain with a great deal of tobacco, it is smuggling, even if obviously you are making a non-international journey)


----------



## Reivajar

alserrod said:


> What I wonder is if it is possible to drive while all the year.
> 
> It is an area quite controlled (no customs but so few people are there that any movement in the surroundings could be suspected as smuggling. He will be checked to have a look to his goods.
> 
> 
> Anyway, if a road would be built at some other time... it will be to go to Os de Civis (if you are in Os de Civis and you go across the mountain with a great deal of tobacco, it is smuggling, even if obviously you are making a non-international journey)


I have no idea how Os de Civis inhabitants deal with the fact of crossing the Andorran-Spanish customs...

If you are living in Os, you can buy whatever you want in Andorra? If you have bought anything in Spain and your destination is Os, you can cross the customs without problem? No idea... :dunno:


----------



## alserrod

Reivajar said:


> I have no idea how Os de Civis inhabitants deal with the fact of crossing the Andorran-Spanish customs...
> 
> If you are living in Os, you can buy whatever you want in Andorra? If you have bought anything in Spain and your destination is Os, you can cross the customs without problem? No idea... :dunno:


Yes you can, and almost all services will be from the Andorran side (they have some international agreements of services over the border).

If they buy any good, they will buy it in Andorra and if they "export" to Os de Civis, it will be tax free (it is cheaper for Administration not to set a custom because they are barely 100 inhabitants).

Any invoice made in Os de Civis (for instance, the hotel, restaurant, and so on) MUST have VAT and citizens must pay taxes as any other Spanish citizens.

To my best knowledgement:

- Os de Civis citizens and emergency services have free pass without customs from Spain until Sant Julià and later turning left.
- Police has never pass agreement.

So then:

- Any citizen of Os de Civis should cross Andorran territory to go anywhere in Spain. They can buy any good. If they consum it in their village, tax free. If they go to anywhere into Spain they must cross general customs and declare it
- If any citizen goes through the mountain with goods he can be considered smuggler (you can go trekking but not with a van full of tobacco, for instance)
- You can consider Os de Civis as "the city without law". When the Catalan police wanted to go there to check one thing... they had to approach by helicopter, avoiding Andorran territory...


----------



## Skopje/Скопје

WOW! Lovely! Probably one of the best border crossings in the world!


----------



## bogdymol

Another pedestrian bridge border crossing at the PL-SK-CZ tri-point:


----------



## Pascal20a

Where is this tripoint?


----------



## volodaaaa

Pascal20a said:


> Where is this tripoint?


There is only *exact single* place on whole Earth it could be... :lol:


----------



## Pascal20a

Near which city?


----------



## MichiH

^^ > click < hno: hno: hno: hno: hno:


----------



## an-148




----------



## Verso

Pascal20a said:


> Where is this tripoint?


On Mars. :lol:


----------



## bogdymol

It's near Gdansk :|


----------



## italystf




----------



## MichiH

^^



Pascal20a said:


> They're not trolling


----------



## alserrod

Lol..
if it had been Russia, China and Mongolia for instance... Ok, two possibilities but here...


----------



## cinxxx

^^Or even Liechtenstein, Austria, Switzerland


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ Tsss, the one and only "tripoint" in Europe is named _Luxembourg_ (indeed, we even created a "grand duchy" for that, in order to be sure to localize the said "tripoint" on a map :yes.


----------



## alserrod

cinxxx said:


> ^^Or even Liechtenstein, Austria, Switzerland


Andorra, France and Spain.

If you arrive there (whatever of both) you are a genious...


----------



## Verso

parcdesprinces said:


> ^^ Tsss, the one and only "tripoint" in Europe is named _Luxembourg_ (indeed, we even created a "grand duchy" for that, in order to be sure to localize the said "tripoint" on a map :yes.


Luxembourg is the tripoint between France, Belgium and Germany?


----------



## bogdymol

Romania, Ukraine and Rep. of Moldova also have 2 tri-points, both of them on water (on Prut and Danube rivers).


----------



## alserrod

So do South Africa, Swatziland and Mozambique....


----------



## volodaaaa

But don't forget about countries that do not have any tripoints...  a minute of silence for Lesotho, Vatican and San Marino  And one "country" has eightpoint... its name is Antarctica :lol:


----------



## Kemo

volodaaaa said:


> But don't forget about countries that do not have any tripoints...  a minute of silence for Lesotho, Vatican and San Marino


Also Gambia, Portugal, Ireland, UK, Iceland etc etc


----------



## OulaL

volodaaaa said:


> Those are general limits stated on respective law. Local adjustments might be higher and lower than general speed limit as well. There are also some 130 kph sections in Macedonia and 160 kph sections under detailed consideration in Slovakia by now.


I thought the map shows the highest allowed speed on _any_ road. It can't be just motorways, since the map includes many countries that don't have motorways at all.

But anyway, if what you say is true, then the map is incorrect with Finland. Our general speed limit is 80 km/h. Whenever higher (as on most motorways), the limit is always signposted.


----------



## Penn's Woods

When did this become The Speed Limit Thread??


----------



## italystf

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1301773


----------



## Kanadzie

arct said:


> I always think about this road sign. Is there anyone who can read that while on a motorway or any other road? :bash: Masterpiece of idiocy.


It is not so bad. The one that makes question is when you get added on there the "Platna" sign and then either you have to Platna if you are a car, or if you are a truck, you have to orange square (???) And if you are riding on a bus, does it have asterisk or not! First time approaching PL toll both was somewhat interesting. I come in at about 190 km/h and suddently running through a forest of signs saying all kinds of things, limitu 40, fotoradarow, pobor oplat, orange square, rumble strip, and yet, no idea many zlotych I need to dig from my pocket until the pretty woman asks!

I also liked once seeing electronic sign warning of accident on A4. I saw the diagram sign and spent long time wondering what it was. I thought at first, there is a nice beer for me to drink at km 227 until figuring out the writing


----------



## Nikkodemo

*The frozen pics of the USA - Canada border:*



Mariel said:


> El vórtice polar que afecta a Norteamérica congeló segmentos de las Cataratas del Niágara. (Reuters)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Las cataratas se distribuyen a lo largo de la frontera compartida entre Estados Unidos y Canadá. (Reuters)


----------



## Losbp

*Singapore - Malaysia Woodlands Train Checkpoint*

I took this photo from Singapore, that train platform is technically in Malaysia

Border Crossing Woodlands by adriansyahyassin, on Flickr

Inside the train who are technically located in Malaysia already, across that fence is Singapore

Border Crossing Woodlands by adriansyahyassin, on Flickr

Border Crossing Woodlands by adriansyahyassin, on Flickr


----------



## OulaL

Until Woodlands checkpoint opened, the border controls were at the then-central railway station (on Keppel Road). The passengers got their Malaysian entry stamps in the centre of Singapore, before even boarding the train!


----------



## Kemo

Kanadzie said:


> I also liked once seeing electronic sign warning of accident on A4. I saw the diagram sign and spent long time wondering what it was. I thought at first, there is a nice beer for me to drink at km 227 until figuring out the writing


Sorry for OT, but do you mean this one?


----------



## Kanadzie

Tak, it makes me want to find the nearest fridge...


----------



## insulting-dutchman

one of the more interesting ones










lovely road


----------



## Eulanthe

Sorry to be a pain with these questions, but I keep reading more and having more and more questions about the 'way things were'.

Does anyone know if - for instance - people living close to the PL/CZ border had permits that allowed them to cross the border anywhere rather than just at authorised crossings? Not just PL/CZ, but any pre-Schengen European border?

I'm still trying to work out the reality on the ground - did people living close to borders really go through the formal checkpoints (or even the 'tourist' ones) every time, or did they just walk across and be damned with the consequences?


----------



## Verso

^^ No one was allowed to cross border whereever they wanted. If someone did it, (s)he didn't go far on the other side.


----------



## OulaL

The borders were usually fenced and guarded, some better than others. Even if someone managed to pass uncaught, it was illegal nevertheless.


----------



## Verso

The Polish-Czech border was fenced until 2007?


----------



## MonteChristo

I don't think so. I think he was talking about pre 90's times (but still I don't think that Polish-Czechoslovak border was fenced)

BTW: Polish-Czech border will probably change-because Czech Republic has "border debt" (Since 1958 border demarcation)-365 hectares to Poland.


----------



## OulaL

MonteChristo said:


> I don't think so. I think he was talking about pre 90's times (but still I don't think that Polish-Czechoslovak border was fenced)


Right. And as I said, some borders better than others. Surely the outer borders of SEV-area were guarded better than inner borders.


----------



## Skyline_

insulting-dutchman said:


> one of the more interesting ones
> 
> 
> 
> lovely road


Citroen C5 going off-road? :lol:^^


----------



## Corvinus

insulting-dutchman said:


> one of the more interesting ones


From Western Sahara into Mauritania? or the opposite direction?


----------



## Losbp

OulaL said:


> Until Woodlands checkpoint opened, the border controls were at the then-central railway station (on Keppel Road). The passengers got their Malaysian entry stamps in the centre of Singapore, before even boarding the train!


You mean *Tanjong Pagar Station* right? That is one interesting border crossing, you are located deep inside the Singaporean territory, but before entering the train you must clear both Singaporean and Malaysian immigration :nuts: So literally you already inside Malaysia as you wait and enters the train in the platform

Some photos of Tanjong Pagar before its closure in 2011hno:


----------



## insulting-dutchman

Corvinus said:


> From Western Sahara into Mauritania? or the opposite direction?


morocco into mauritania. 

and yes the c5 has to offroad, there is no road between the two countries except for the one on the photo.


----------



## alserrod

In the mileage distances thread there was one picture from northern or Central Morocco pointing Mauriania and somewhere else southern there indeed


----------



## insulting-dutchman

:hm:


----------



## Palance

Eulanthe said:


> I'm still trying to work out the reality on the ground - did people living close to borders really go through the formal checkpoints (or even the 'tourist' ones) every time, or did they just walk across and be damned with the consequences?


East-Germany had a "Sperrbezirk", an area of 5km from the border where people needed a permit, so even approaching the border was not possible. Did the other countries, like PL and CS have that as well?


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Was that area cleared of population?


----------



## OulaL

Losbp said:


> You mean *Tanjong Pagar Station* right? That is one interesting border crossing, you are located deep inside the Singaporean territory, but before entering the train you must clear both Singaporean and Malaysian immigration :nuts: So literally you already inside Malaysia as you wait and enters the train in the platform


Yes, that's the one. It's been some time since my trip. I didn't know about Tanjong Pagar, it just said "Singapura" on my train ticket...

The border control didn't work like that the other way, though; when entering Singapore, I got my Malaysian exit mark already in Johor Baharu. (Not a stamp, the officer just wrote the exit date with letters "JB" with red pen... is this typical?)


----------



## Viriatuus

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Was that area cleared of population?


Mostly no, but only residents had a special permit allowing them to move in and out of the area.


----------



## JackFrost

my hometown Sopron was only accessible with a special permission during commie times as well.


----------



## Verso

I thought Eulanthe meant the 1990-2007 period. I don't think there were tourist border crossings in the Warsaw Pact. :lol:


----------



## arct

Verso said:


> I thought Eulanthe meant the 1990-2007 period. I don't think there were tourist border crossings in the Warsaw Pact. :lol:


You would be suprised. That wasn't so hard to travel between the Warsaw Pact countries. My mom for instance, many times were in the Bulgaria with her friends. And she wasn't in the "party".


----------



## Verso

Yeah, I forgot about inner borders. Still, Eulanthe said "pre-Schengen", and "CZ" is the Czech Republic; Czechoslovakia was "CS".


----------



## italystf

Palance said:


> East-Germany had a "Sperrbezirk", an area of 5km from the border where people needed a permit, so even approaching the border was not possible. Did the other countries, like PL and CS have that as well?


Wasn't an East German village completely evacuated and destroyed because too close to the border and hard to defend?
Spain also had a forbidden zone along the French border during Franco regime and Finland still has one along the Russian border.


Jack_Frost said:


> my hometown Sopron was only accessible with a special permission during commie times as well.


Also Szombathely, at least I read it somewhere when I went there (my cousin lives in Austria just across the border).


----------



## alserrod

About Spain, two interesting documents I've found:










A document that allows a citizen living besides Irun (border with France) to move to San Sebastian. Civil war was still on and there were many controls about who was travelling and where...












A passport made by the Republican government before that area was occupied by Franco several months before the war was finished. 

The person in the passport was born in Figueras quite close to the border (if you arrive by high speed train to Spain, nowadays it is the first call)


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> I thought Eulanthe meant the 1990-2007 period. I don't think there were tourist border crossings in the Warsaw Pact. :lol:


Exactly that period  It's not just the PL/CZ border, but all borders post 1990 - after seeing how unguarded the SLO/HR border was in 2011/2013 (pre EU entry) - and how easy it would be to cross at many points - it made me wonder about the rest of them. 

If it interests people about the PL/CZ (CS) border, I know the following - 

- There was certainly a border fence at some point, as you can see many traces of it still. I need to find my pictures, but I've found clear evidence of a border fence in both Karvina and in the mountains to the east of the Golinsk crossing. I've also seen pictures of the border clearly being fenced in pre-1990 times in Kudowa, and of course, there were many obstacles to prevent cars crossing the border. I think the fence in Kudowa may well have lasted until 2004/7. 

- The border was certainly monitored quite heavily pre-1990. From my research, I've found that it was quite difficult to move around freely in the border areas.

- As far as I know, border passes were required in Poland too. 

But - and this is where my question lies - I still can't find out how the border functioned in reality for people living in places like Karvina post 1990. Did locals really bother to go to official checkpoints (especially given that the border in Karvina splits built up areas in half?) when they could just walk across? Likewise in Valga/Valka and many other places. 

I tried to answer this question by observing the SLO/HR border over the course of several days. I didn't see one person making an illegal crossing. I have a picture that I need to upload of one particularly strange place where you need to cross illegally from Croatia to Slovenia to go to a restaurant. The restaurant appeared to be closed, sadly...


----------



## arct

Well, when for instance I went to Germany in 2001, the border crossing in Kołbaskowo was almost like waiting in front of toll gates. I waited like 10 minutes because there was quite big amount of cars also waiting for border cross, but you just had to give your passport to the custom (Polish and German), and then you were free to go  The same situation was on border with Czech Republic.
That's completely another history than crossing for example Hungarian- Serbian border. I was going to the Greece, and I waited 3 hours in the night. That was horrible.


----------



## cinxxx

arct said:


> Well, when for instance I went to Germany in 2001, the border crossing in Kołbaskowo was almost like waiting in front of toll gates. I waited like 10 minutes because there was quite big amount of cars also waiting for border cross, but you just had to give your passport to the custom (Polish and German), and then you were free to go  The same situation on border with Czech Republic.


The same goes for Romania with Hungary...


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> Exactly that period  It's not just the PL/CZ border, but all borders post 1990 - after seeing how unguarded the SLO/HR border was in 2011/2013 (pre EU entry) - and how easy it would be to cross at many points - it made me wonder about the rest of them.


Once in 2008 I approached the SLO-HR border on a local gravel road and turned around. Cops popped out of nowhere and went after me.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> Once in 2008 I approached the SLO-HR border on a local gravel road and turned around. Cops popped out of nowhere and went after me.


That's what surprised me about my last visit before Croatia joined the EU - I spent quite a lot of time lurking near the border and yet wasn't questioned once. The only trouble I got was in Bregana - the Slovenians couldn't care less, but the Croatian guard next to the bridge (which is still Croatian territory!) refused to let me go onto the bridge. 

A chat with the rather well known now Kalin restaurant owner told me that the whole situation was absurd - locals have passes that allow them to cross the bridge there, but that they were hoping that Slovenia/Croatia would see sense and open the crossing as a pedestrian one.


----------



## volodaaaa

Well guys, period of 1990 to 2004 was something like "transition period". Crossing borders out of official border crossing was illegal and you might be arrested by police for that. I remember first visits in Austria or Hungary, the border checks were indeed strict. Very often, border guards checked the technical condition of vehicle, like level of oil. Besides, you had to list all you valuable stuff, like if you had camera, first cell phones, etc.

In 2004 - 2008 situation changed rapidly. The border checks start to be more relaxed, you had been check only by one side sometimes. And very often, in case of domestic drivers (I mean eg. Slovak and Austrians at AT/SK border) they did not even require you to show a passport(s). But I still think it was not legal to cross border anywhere


----------



## Skyline_

The highest metal road border crossing in the world. You travel through the Khunjerab National Park, with chance of sighting the Karakoram Ibex (Markhor) and Marcopolo sheep. At 4,733 meters Khunjerab Pass you are not only on Pak China border but also between the Pamir and Karakoram mountain ranges.


----------



## Skyline_

This scenic spot in the Swiss and Italian Alps is the Margherita hut on the summit of Signalkuppe, a 4,559m-tall (14,954 ft) mountain marking the border between Switzerland and Italy:


----------



## Penn's Woods

volodaaaa said:


> I just wonder, what would happen if I put on diving glasses and swam around the wall near Tijuana :lol: or if I accidentally fell asleep at my air mattress and water flow took me behind the border.


The Border Patrol's trained sharks would get you.


----------



## Kanadzie

volodaaaa said:


> I just wonder, what would happen if I put on diving glasses and swam around the wall near Tijuana :lol: or if I accidentally fell asleep at my air mattress and water flow took me behind the border.


American would catch you and throw you into Mexico, then you would get abducted by drug gang :lol:


----------



## Fatfield

Penn's Woods said:


> The Border Patrol's trained sharks would get you.


And here's one of them at work.


----------



## OriK

Penn's Woods said:


> Of course not, but for the last two days on this thread it's been about "paranoia about terrorism" and the Berlin Wall.... People too young to remember the Cold War seem to think the whole world should be just one big Schengen zone, and that any border controls at all (something that used to be totally normal even between Menton and Ventimiglia, for example) are signs of backwardness. I get the sentiment, but it's not realistic.


It wasn't realistic in Europe 30 years ago... but you see... I don't think the cold war is a legit excuse... in fact the World Wars were in Europe.

I don't say that everybody should trust everybody, but I think that, at least, USA and Canada should trust each other and implement a Schengen-like agreement.

Furthermore, each time I cross to USA I feel intimidated by the agents (wich turned out to be friendly after they decided that I could get in)... I think there is no need for that... and luckily I always come from a friend country with a friend country passport... I cannot guess how rude may them get when you are coming from a not that friendly country!

On the other hand, Canadiands seem much more relaxed, friendly from the begining and not treating you like if you were a suspect.

The other guarded border that I've crossed is Spain from/to Gibraltar (UK) and a visual external inspection was enough for both countries.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^I went to Quebec for about a week three months or so ago. The border agents in both directions - Canadian as well as U.S. - were more unfriendly than they've been in the past. (And I had to pop open the trunk of my car, while remaining IN the car, also in both directions, which I've never had to do before. Maybe there was something in particular going on that week, or maybe standard practice has tightened since my last trip in 2006...)


----------



## Penn's Woods

OriK said:


> It wasn't realistic in Europe 30 years ago... but you see... I don't think the cold war is a legit excuse... in fact the World Wars were in Europe.
> 
> I don't say that everybody should trust everybody, but I think that, at least, USA and Canada should trust each other and implement a Schengen-like agreement.
> 
> Furthermore, each time I cross to USA I feel intimidated by the agents (wich turned out to be friendly after they decided that I could get in)... I think there is no need for that... and luckily I always come from a friend country with a friend country passport... I cannot guess how rude may them get when you are coming from a not that friendly country!
> 
> On the other hand, Canadiands seem much more relaxed, friendly from the begining and not treating you like if you were a suspect.
> 
> The other guarded border that I've crossed is Spain from/to Gibraltar (UK) and a visual external inspection was enough for both countries.


I meant the Cold War period (and, for that matter, pretty much all of history before that) rather than the Cold War as such. My first trips to Europe were in the 80s, when even going from one "friendly" country to another meant changing currency and possibly showing passports - I even passed through customs in the Geneva train station getting off a train from Paris.

Don't get me wrong, it's great that Europeans enjoy the freedom of movement they do today; I envy them and I hope it lasts. But you don't need to be that old to realize this is not the way things have always been, and expecting the rest of the world to be like Europe is...um...unrealistic.


----------



## OriK

^^ I agree with you, I also hope it lasts. But I really think that, not being possible to implement something similar in the whole world... there are specific borders or groups of countries that with a little bit of iniciative could mimic Schengen. USA-Canada is a clear example.


----------



## Viriatuus

^^

Brazil/Uruguay is a very relaxed border, for instance.


----------



## alserrod

Was the Benelux the first "relaxed border" in the world?


----------



## Eulanthe

Penn's Woods said:


> Of course not, but for the last two days on this thread it's been about "paranoia about terrorism" and the Berlin Wall.... People too young to remember the Cold War seem to think the whole world should be just one big Schengen zone, and that any border controls at all (something that used to be totally normal even between Menton and Ventimiglia, for example) are signs of backwardness. I get the sentiment, but it's not realistic.


The thing is that the sheer success of the Schengen zone shows that there's no real reason for Canada and the USA not to implement something similar. The lack of even local border passes for people living in places like Stanstead/Derby Line shows how ridiculous the situation is.

I can understand the US wanting to keep control of their external border, but surely extending the NEXUS programme to allow known and verified locals the ability to freely cross at certain points wouldn't be too difficult? A simple solution that would benefit everyone would be allowing locals the right to roam freely within the two towns (subject to approval, of course) - but making it clear that if you want to go further, you need to go through the ordinary border control. 

Having said that, I'm not sure that most Americans/Canadians would like the other aspect of Schengen law - the ability for border controls to be conducted at any time anywhere in the country.


----------



## g.spinoza

alserrod said:


> Was the Benelux the first "relaxed border" in the world?


Maybe Italy-San Marino


----------



## timeandspace

Penn's Woods said:


> Of course not, but for the last two days on this thread it's been about "paranoia about terrorism" and the Berlin Wall.... People too young to remember the Cold War seem to think the whole world should be just one big Schengen zone, and that any border controls at all (something that used to be totally normal even between Menton and Ventimiglia, for example) are signs of backwardness. I get the sentiment, but it's not realistic.



in fact free and open migration is an imperative if the planet is to work efficiently and for people to catch up with the movement of goods and funds. the only threat is terrorism and security but even that one is a very limited one geographically.

it is utterly expensive, unfair and unproductive to militarize and keep all the borders the way they are. in fact lifting all restrictions on migration wouldn't even create a huge chaos, things would settle rather quickly, people go where they can work as they do now, and it's not like people could immigrate over huge distances all of a sudden.


----------



## Ingenioren

alserrod said:


> Was the Benelux the first "relaxed border" in the world?


Nordic union ofcourse


----------



## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> Maybe Italy-San Marino


OK I agree but... what about France-Monaco?


----------



## bogdymol

Italy - Vatican?


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> Italy - Vatican?


Italy-Vatican has been relaxed only since the 20s. Before that it was all but relaxed.


----------



## zsmg

The first relaxed borders was France in 1861 which abolished the need for passports or visas, rest of Europe followed soon. Sadly WW1 changed that dramatically.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Please elaborate. 

EDIT: That's for Spinoza.


----------



## Penn's Woods

zsmg said:


> The first relaxed borders was France in 1861 which abolished the need for passports or visas, rest of Europe followed soon. Sadly WW1 changed that dramatically.


Funny you mention WWI.

I've been reading this lately: http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Guns_of_August.html?id=fnVy4v5pZPMC

(Which may explain the perhaps-somewhat-pessimistic view of international relations I may have been displaying on this thread....)

But borders were actually more open earlier? Didn't know that.


----------



## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Please elaborate.
> 
> EDIT: That's for Spinoza.


Vatican City is the direct descendant of Church States, which ruled most of central Italy for the better part of the millennium. After Garibaldi and his Thousand men went for their unification tour, almost all central Italy was invaded and annexed to the Piedmontese state (1861), and ten years later also Latium and Rome were invaded and annexed. The Pope declared himself prisoner of the Italian State, forbade all Catholics to participate to the political life of the newly created Italy and excommunicate all who did. This situation (The Roman Question) went on until 1929, when Mussolini and the Pope signed the Lateran Treaty which formally ended the Question, giving the Pope a State to rule (Vatican City) and a series of privileges to the Catholic Church inside the Italian State.


----------



## Eulanthe

Penn's Woods said:


> But borders were actually more open earlier? Didn't know that.


Talking from a post-WW2 point of view, yes. I think France and West Germany maintained visas for each other for a while, but the Benelux countries dismantled their internal borders very early. You'll find plenty of examples where people could move relatively freely across land borders - one reason why Schengen was so easy to implement in Western Europe was that the borders weren't really guarded for pedestrians anyway. 

As far as I gather, by 1985 and the signing of the Schengen Agreement, controls on internal EEC borders focused much more on goods than people. That's why land borders tended to be weakly defended (even - as far as I know - West Germany maintained an open border with the DDR for identity checking purposes, but not for customs). Once it became obvious that customs controls were going to be abolished - there was no sense whatsoever in maintaining identity checks.

These days, with the technology available, wouldn't it be a formality to use a technological solution to allow locals to move freely in Derby Line/Stanstead?


----------



## Kanadzie

There is really no excuse for a technological solution to Derby Line issue, the US has spent billions making large roving teams of border patrols, massive border posts, etc etc. But in reality there is essentially no threat or problem there that needs to be stopped. Technological solution would only impinge on the privacy of the locals and cost needless taxpayer dollars (really this is a very small population)

Definitely on a consistent slope upwards crossing the border is considerably more troublesome than before that unfortunate event. Even as has been needed for a while now, passport to cross border. It's expensive and hurts economy of both sides. Previously if one was Canadian or US citizen, only needed to say as much when crossing, and passport or other identity paperwork was not required. In say, 2000, in ideal conditions could cross border checkpoint in 2 minutes approx, now best case, at least 5-7 minutes, and not uncommon to spend more than 2 hours waiting in certain places. It is very expensive.

What is curious is border checkpoints did not exist at all previous to approximately 1961 I want to say...


----------



## timeandspace

blame it on the military-industrial complex


----------



## Penn's Woods

Kanadzie said:


> There is really no excuse for a technological solution to Derby Line issue, the US has spent billions making large roving teams of border patrols, massive border posts, etc etc. But in reality there is essentially no threat or problem there that needs to be stopped. Technological solution would only impinge on the privacy of the locals and cost needless taxpayer dollars (really this is a very small population)
> 
> Definitely on a consistent slope upwards crossing the border is considerably more troublesome than before that unfortunate event. Even as has been needed for a while now, passport to cross border. It's expensive and hurts economy of both sides. Previously if one was Canadian or US citizen, only needed to say as much when crossing, and passport or other identity paperwork was not required. In say, 2000, in ideal conditions could cross border checkpoint in 2 minutes approx, now best case, at least 5-7 minutes, and not uncommon to spend more than 2 hours waiting in certain places. It is very expensive.
> 
> What is curious is border checkpoints did not exist at all previous to approximately 1961 I want to say...


Well, I don't remember 1961. I do remember being able to cross the (U.S.-Canadian) border without ID; you said you were a U.S. citizen, they took your word for it (unless they had reason to doubt it.)

My last trip, I had a 20-minute wait northbound at the I-87/A-15 crossing and a much shorter wait southbound at rte. 173/US 201. But in both cases got more questions than I ever had in the past and had to pop open my trunk. (Also, the agent entering Maine on my return trip asked where I was going. I had an urge to say, "I'm entering my own country; is that really any of your business?")

I agree it's annoying. And feels a bit silly in the case of two very culturally similar, friendly countries. But any attempt to loosen it would probably come up against things like the so-called Millennium Bomber (and the fact that our Congress these days is incapable of doing anything). As for Derby Line/Stanstead, the problem I see with putting the barriers outside the towns is it makes it necessary for residents of Derby Line heading farther into the U.S., or residents of Stanstead heading farther into Canada, have to pass through customs to get to the rest of their own country.


----------



## italystf

https://maps.google.it/maps?q=derby...+Orleans,+Vermont,+Stati+Uniti&gl=it&t=h&z=15
It looks like there are already two border crossings in Derby Line, very close each other: I91-route 55 and road 5-route 143.
So, what's the problem if small streets 200 meters away are closed? It's not that locals need huge detours to go from a side to another.


----------



## cinxxx

Meanwhile in Europe you get this: pedestrian bridge between countries 
No customs, free travel. Poland left - Slovakia right
http://goo.gl/maps/29J2P









https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/39224921


----------



## Viriatuus

Where is the border?



http://jornalaplateia.com/aplateia/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/PARQUE-AEREA.jpg



Santana do Livramento/Rivera


----------



## volodaaaa

cinxxx said:


> Meanwhile in Europe you get this: pedestrian bridge between countries
> No customs, free travel. Poland left - Slovakia right
> http://goo.gl/maps/29J2P
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/39224921


I've been in Poland once for 5 minutes. Just passed this bridge, went to next shop on Polish side, bought some great home-made Polish Krowki and got back to Slovakia :lol: But I can say I have ever been in Poland. 

Btw. the bridge on picture looks like being fallen apart. :lol:


----------



## cinxxx

^^I guess it's because of the wide angle 

I've driven by that bridge in May 2013, had no idea about it, saw it from the car, but didn't stop. We were already coming from Poland, from Niedzica and heading towards Stará Ľubovňa, Slovakia.


----------



## volodaaaa

cinxxx said:


> ^^I guess it's because of the wide angle
> 
> I've driven by that bridge in May 2013, had no idea about it, saw it from the car, but didn't stop. We were already coming from Poland, from Niedzica and heading towards Stará Ľubovňa, Slovakia.


I think this bridge is quite new (2007+-). But speaking about pedestrian/cyclo-bridges, this is between Austria and Slovakia.
Also known as Chuck Norris Bridge


----------



## Festin

OriK said:


> ^^ I agree with you, I also hope it lasts. But I really think that, not being possible to implement something similar in the whole world... there are specific borders or groups of countries that with a little bit of iniciative could mimic Schengen. USA-Canada is a clear example.


The problem of a Schengen system between USA and Canada is maybe because they do not work together if an wanted person gets to Canada. (At least that is the case in movies xD)

There need to be bigger cooperations betweens polices and in some cases have the same laws.


----------



## cinxxx

volodaaaa said:


> I think this bridge is quite new (2007+-). But speaking about pedestrian/cyclo-bridges, this is between Austria and Slovakia.
> Also known as Chuck Norris Bridge


That's an interesting one 
This one is between Germany and Poland - built 2004


Görlitz/Zgorzelec by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I also don't think that security-sensitive United States is willing to relinquish some of the external border security to the Canadians. 

Interestingly, the U.S. state department warns about easy movement of potential terrorists between European countries because of lack of border controls, but it's actually not that different from the U.S., where "potential terrorists" can also freely travel across the country.


----------



## volodaaaa

Festin said:


> The problem of a Schengen system between USA and Canada is maybe because they do not work together if an wanted person gets to Canada. (At least that is the case in movies xD)
> 
> There need to be bigger cooperations betweens polices and in some cases have the same laws.


I do not have any knowledge about this issue, but my question is: Which country is more strict in their safety steps? Or could be the mutual distrust the problem?


----------



## italystf

Unmarked (apart border stones) border crossing between Austria and Hungary (I was there 1,5 years ago)
https://maps.google.it/maps?ll=46.1...=8D1ajsOtQuitTzhvKBfsyw&cbp=12,300.93,,0,9.05
You hardly notice that you cross the former Iron Curtain.


----------



## Alex_ZR

italystf said:


> Unmarked (apart border stones) border crossing between Austria and Hungary (I was there 1,5 years ago)
> https://maps.google.it/maps?ll=46.1...=8D1ajsOtQuitTzhvKBfsyw&cbp=12,300.93,,0,9.05
> You hardly notice that you cross the former Iron Curtain.


Your link leads to Switzerland-France border.


----------



## Penn's Woods

volodaaaa said:


> I do not have any knowledge about this issue, but my question is: Which country is more strict in their safety steps? Or could be the mutual distrust the problem?


I think distrust is too strong a word; Americans and Canadians generally get along, officials included. But if you were a politician on either side of the border, you'd voted to open the border and then something happened on your side of the border committed by someone from the "dangerous" parts of the world who'd come through the other country....

Basic caution, basic fear of the future (fear of the unknown).... There's always a portion of the electorate (including, for example, my mother) who are perfectly willing to cede power to the government on the assumption that it'll protect us. Hence the NSA. (Don't want to open that up here but the fact that people are willing to let the NSA do what it's been doing seems to me another aspect of the same phenomenon.)


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## cinxxx

Interesting fact about the bridge I posted above, there were no signs that informed you that you are crossing any border, but you will notice the language change


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## alserrod

Festin said:


> The problem of a Schengen system between USA and Canada is maybe because they do not work together if an wanted person gets to Canada. (At least that is the case in movies xD)
> 
> There need to be bigger cooperations betweens polices and in some cases have the same laws.




So it happens in Europe too...

Laws apply only in each country and if a criminal is required by justice they must make an international call to catch him and give them back.

They are usually fast but... obviously exemptions can be at all!!!


In my country we have had in the recent years quite important corruption cases and, first measure taken by judge is to go-off passport.

WTF!!!, he is saying them that he isn't allowed to go out of Spain and can be punished but...
- having passport is not mandatory is Spain (sometimes I wonder if they really have it or they just say that passport was gone off...
- obviously they will be able to move within Schengen area without any custom control. They are just adviced that taking out of the country will be a new crime.

and... just a casualty but I haven't heard ever those typical images of a criminal waiting to be judged without passport, moving near borders and crossing them "by mistake". It is curious but never have heard about those cases.

It is not a joke, there are several cities near the border and, in fact, one importan city close to French border and another one to Portuguese border. You can be there because business and sometimes borders aren't pointed or you are driving over a motorway and nothing says that next exit is in another country... 
but this case... never heard.


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## alserrod

by the way about not able to cross a border. 
Obviously within Schengen zone, citizens can move free and police can make their controls within an area.
But army isn't allowed to "invade" a country.

I love this lake
https://maps.google.es/?ll=42.799431,-0.574207&spn=0.012532,0.076647&t=h&z=14

In the area there are several Barracks of Spanish Army to train about mountain operations. If you go there you will often see them training but... you will never see them around that lake.

The reason is because there are four ways to arrive there:

- Crossing a great deal of mountains
- Climbing from Aspe valley in France
- Trekking from Echo valley in Spain (long journey)
- Trekking from Candanchu ski resort. This one is the easiest but if you set google maps with aerial view options you will notice that the only possibility requires to cross borders for a while!


So they never go there...


----------



## italystf

Alex_ZR said:


> Your link leads to Switzerland-France border.


Sorry, I copy-pasted the wong link
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Szom...d=Q40VhUyX0rbP3fjsJ6e55A&cbp=12,3.75,,0,10.14


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## volodaaaa

Penn's Woods said:


> I think distrust is too strong a word; Americans and Canadians generally get along, officials included. But if you were a politician on either side of the border, you'd voted to open the border and then something happened on your side of the border committed by someone from the "dangerous" parts of the world who'd come through the other country....
> 
> Basic caution, basic fear of the future (fear of the unknown).... There's always a portion of the electorate (including, for example, my mother) who are perfectly willing to cede power to the government on the assumption that it'll protect us. Hence the NSA. (Don't want to open that up here but the fact that people are willing to let the NSA do what it's been doing seems to me another aspect of the same phenomenon.)


I understand you, but for me as a foreigner, it is hard to get to US as much as to Canada. But I totally agree with the statements above. Schengen has many issues that are not exactly solved. For instance, recognition of Kosovo.


----------



## italystf

French-Swiss border near Geneva:
https://maps.google.it/maps?ll=46.1...haJHdDJGa4sW0ZynexrrGA&cbp=12,333.11,,0,25.31
The road is in France, houses on one side are in Switzerland and are accessed to the other side. This gate looks like a private border crossing.


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## OriK

The army cannot cross the schengen inner borders on duty but the police can in case of prosecution.


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## volodaaaa

OriK said:


> The army cannot cross the schengen inner borders on duty but the police can in case of prosecution.


But is that really enforced?


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## Kanadzie

Penn's Woods said:


> I think distrust is too strong a word; Americans and Canadians generally get along, officials included. But if you were a politician on either side of the border, you'd voted to open the border and then something happened on your side of the border committed by someone from the "dangerous" parts of the world who'd come through the other country....
> 
> Basic caution, basic fear of the future (fear of the unknown).... There's always a portion of the electorate (including, for example, my mother) who are perfectly willing to cede power to the government on the assumption that it'll protect us. Hence the NSA. (Don't want to open that up here but the fact that people are willing to let the NSA do what it's been doing seems to me another aspect of the same phenomenon.)


Millenium Bomber certainly caused some issues, but such things are so exceedingly rare.

Typically politicians on either side of border are usually complaing of border regulations, they are almost all on side of improved conditions. But opposition exists mostly further one is away from border as you note.

But surely of any countries, US and Canada can make open borders work properly. It is patently crazy that we can drive 125 mph across, for example, D - PL border with no issues whatsoever, despite a particular history, while USA - CAN border have to stop and wait 20 minutes and show passport, answer questions, open trunk when there has been 200 years of uninterrupted peace with geopolitical and economic alliance. In terms of cost to the people of both countries, both direct taxation to run the bureaucracies, and indirect economic strangulation, it costs some huge sum of money annually. Any security issue can be solved in more efficient and effective ways in other manners.

Pretty much any bad guy in the US is as well in Canada so there really isn't much security issue. Just look at the recent / current Toronto - New York train bombing plot. US and Canadian law enforcement found these guys and worked together to make sure it did not happen, meanwhile the border guards let them through on multiple times despite beards bigger than Osama's :nuts:


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## Penn's Woods

^^All true....


----------



## Innsertnamehere

While the grilling you get is rather silly, Canada-US still don't have complete free trade, there are limits on certain things and you can't cross the border with other items (and for good reason). I can understand a check for that, but the grilling you get with 1000 cameras and the need for a passport is rather silly. Like the TSA, I can see it to ensure that people aren't carrying illegal goods across the border (especially guns as the US is much more lax on that than Canada, and it is a huge industry to ship guns north of the border), but doing it to stop terrorists is pointless.

the real issue for border crossings for me is trains, there are only 3 cross border train services (Toronto-NYC, Montreal-NYC and Vancouver-Seattle), but they can be rather silly. at one point in the 1990's the VIA train would end at the border, passengers would get on a bus, drive over the border and get checked as a normal bus, and get into an AMTRAK train. now the train "simply" stops at the border for 2 hours as border security agents check everybody and everything on board. They need to upgrade stations so that you can do border clearances before entering the train, so that the train can just fly across the border. The problem is that they treat them like buses, when they need to be treated like planes.


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## Kanadzie

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^All true....


Damnit I came here for an argument, consensus making is on the third floor! :lol:

I hate the various restrictions on things across the border, especially how Canada hates you bringing any booze into our parched, provincial in the truest sense of the word saharas... Yes I know I can buy liquor here, selection sucks, but I am offended to pay the stupid monopoly markups and subsidize the cash register clerks making the same salary as engineers :nuts:


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## Innsertnamehere

I don't think you realize how the LCBO works.. but Ok. think of it this way: what you pay for in extra booze money saves you when it comes tax time.


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## Penn's Woods

^^Heck, theoretically, it's illegal to transport liquor across state lines within the U.S. Even though it's completely unenforced. Pennsylvania has its own version of the LCBO - the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board, whose outlets are unaffectionately known as "state stores" - ...and lots of privately-owned liquor outlets are in neighboring states right over the line. (Personally, I do my alcohol shopping* here: https://maps.google.com/?ll=39.818533,-75.456601&spn=0.005908,0.011362&t=m&z=17 As you'll see if you zoom out, you literally can't get any closer to Philadelphia without crossing into Pennsylvania. Except in New Jersey, but then there'd be a bridge toll on the way back. And sales tax. Delaware doesn't have sales tax.)

*For anything stronger than beer, that is. Beer's not part of the LCB monopoly.


----------



## Kanadzie

In Canada also illegal to transport liquor over provincial boundaries, very problematic in Ottawa region (straddles QC and ON, QC beer is half price compared to absurd private-monopoly "Beer Store" deal) 

But back to border crossings, sort of, on I-93 between New Hampshire and Massachusetts, there are huge "NH State Liquor Stores" on not just one, but both sides of the freeway, and you see many Mass plates  I know it is one country, but "Taxachusetts" and "Live free or Die" are practically different countries 

It reminds me of the border between Germany and Poland, at Frankfurt am Oder / Slubice. You cross the bridge (no checkpoints!) with a steady line of D plates. On the Polish side, the wonderful PL speed limit rosetta stone, and tons of businesses with big signs "TANKSTELLE HIER" and "ZIGARETTEN!" as well as the inevitable Biedronka. PL gasoline is notably cheaper than German and, I guess cigarettes also. Even gas station guy addressed me in German and asked if I wanted to pay in Euro... _euro jest nie dobry, je platny tylko w zloty!_ 

here for example, you can't get any closer to Germany than this, the water is 10 feet away 
https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=slubi...k5V1F6Hr3-R5SWeN90hZvw&cbp=12,269.07,,0,-0.23


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## Innsertnamehere

I can tell you from experience that nobody follows the rules for inter provincial booze. lots of people in ottawa just drive to quebec to buy booze, _especially_ 18 year olds.


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## g.spinoza

volodaaaa said:


> But is that really enforced?


Of course. Crossing borders arms in hands is a declaration of war.

Armed forces can, of course cross borders and act officially if invited.


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## g.spinoza

Border on a bridge between Italy (right) and France (left) in Claviere:

http://goo.gl/maps/FqA1a


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## italystf

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Heck, theoretically, it's illegal to transport liquor across state lines within the U.S. Even though it's completely unenforced. Pennsylvania has its own version of the LCBO - the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board, whose outlets are unaffectionately known as "state stores" - ...and lots of privately-owned liquor outlets are in neighboring states right over the line. (Personally, I do my alcohol shopping* here: https://maps.google.com/?ll=39.818533,-75.456601&spn=0.005908,0.011362&t=m&z=17 As you'll see if you zoom out, you literally can't get any closer to Philadelphia without crossing into Pennsylvania. Except in New Jersey, but then there'd be a bridge toll on the way back. And sales tax. Delaware doesn't have sales tax.)
> 
> *For anything stronger than beer, that is. Beer's not part of the LCB monopoly.


So you can't buy a beer in a supermarket in Pennsylvania?


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## Penn's Woods

^^You can.

By "not part of the monopoly," I meant that other retailers are allowed to sell it.


----------



## alserrod

OriK said:


> The army cannot cross the schengen inner borders on duty but the police can in case of prosecution.



Yes, that's why near the lake I pointed, army will never go on operations. There are several barracks in the surroudings to train on mountains but to approach that nice lake they should climb several mountains or cross over France for less than 1km. Therefore... they have a lot of mountains to trek or climb


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## alserrod

italystf said:


> French-Swiss border near Geneva:
> https://maps.google.it/maps?ll=46.1...haJHdDJGa4sW0ZynexrrGA&cbp=12,333.11,,0,25.31
> The road is in France, houses on one side are in Switzerland and are accessed to the other side. This gate looks like a private border crossing.


Nice link. Is is considered to remove booths?


----------



## Corvinus

g.spinoza said:


> Of course. Crossing borders arms in hands is a declaration of war.


Some years ago there was an incident of Swiss soldiers crossing inadvertently into Liechtenstein during some routine exercise. After having already marched some 1.5 kms into FL territory, they eventually realized their mistake and marched out again. Later, an official excuse was presented by the Swiss Army to the Gov't of Liechtenstein. No war broke out :lol:
Liechtenstein does not maintain an army since the 1860's.


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## Kirov88

g.spinoza said:


> Of course. Crossing borders arms in hands is a declaration of war.


This happens a lot between the Netherlands and Germany. Somehow we haven't been at war lately.


----------



## Penn's Woods

cinxxx said:


> Schengen would be really great for many Romanian communities located at the border with Hungary and Bulgaria. They could develop together with the community from the other side, roads would be built between them, since no border checks anymore...


Schengen or not, couldn't Romania and Bulgaria do that on their own, I mean, just as far as the border between them is concerned?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> Well, in for a penny, in for a pound. If you don't get things done properly before you embark on an adventure, you're in for nasty surprises. We've already seen that with Greece, who shouldn't have been anywhere near Europe.
> 
> Bite me Skyline


:lol:

Good to have you back.

opcorn:


----------



## Laurentzius

Penn's Woods said:


> Schengen or not, couldn't Romania and Bulgaria do that on their own, I mean, just as far as the border between them is concerned?


Of course they could, but for some reason such a move is not even discussed between the politicians of the 2 countries. Maybe some Schengen countries oppose it in order to have as many borders as possible between the Schengen area and the external EU borders and for as long as possible, to make it harder for illegal immigrants to get in. But if I were in charge of Romania and/or Bulgaria, I would lift any border checks between the two counties and also between Romania and Hungary and between Bulgaria and Greece, regardless of what the Hungarians and Greeks themselves do with their side of the borders. And if any Schengen country objected, I would tell them to go [email protected] themselves. They aren't the only ones who can break an agreement and act unilaterally.


----------



## g.spinoza

Kirov88 said:


> This happens a lot between the Netherlands and Germany. Somehow we haven't been at war lately.


I said "uninvited" elsewere. Of course they were invited.


----------



## nbcee

Btw. Hungary is strongly in favour of Romania and Bulgaria joining the Schengen area and on a sidenote: So am I. And not just because of the Hungarians who live there.


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## Skyline_

Road_UK said:


> Well, in for a penny, in for a pound. If you don't get things done properly before you embark on an adventure, you're in for nasty surprises. We've already seen that with Greece, who shouldn't have been anywhere near Europe.
> 
> Bite me Skyline


Meh, you can't even provoke me anymore... hno:hno:hno:


----------



## Kirov88

g.spinoza said:


> I said "uninvited" elsewere. Of course they were invited.


No, they weren't. They just accidentally crossed the border during an exercise and brought back by the German Police.


----------



## g.spinoza

Kirov88 said:


> No, they weren't. They just accidentally crossed the border during an exercise and brought back by the German Police.


Ok, I give up. My message was clear but evidently there is still someone splitting hairs...hno:


----------



## volodaaaa

italystf said:


> Another problem with RO and BG in Schengen is that it creates a free corridor between Greece (where many Asian and African immigrants arrive) and Western Europe.
> Croatia in Schengen should not be a problem if it controls well the borders with BIH, SRB and MNE.


I don't understand. Is this a problem to get to Greece and then take a boat, ship and plane and freely get to the rest parts of Schengen? Having Romania and Bulgaria in Schengen is not a problem to me.


----------



## cinxxx

Penn's Woods said:


> Schengen or not, couldn't Romania and Bulgaria do that on their own, I mean, just as far as the border between them is concerned?


Wanted to write that myself but forgot. Maybe the civil society should try to bring this subject more into the open. Schengen border infrastructure as signed in the agreement the others won't respect was implemented only on the outer borders of the EU by RO&BG anyway. This is why they can only join together at once...



Laurentzius said:


> Of course they could, but for some reason such a move is not even discussed between the politicians of the 2 countries. Maybe some Schengen countries oppose it in order to have as many borders as possible between the Schengen area and the external EU borders and for as long as possible, to make it harder for illegal immigrants to get in. But if I were in charge of Romania and/or Bulgaria, I would lift any border checks between the two counties and also between Romania and Hungary and between Bulgaria and Greece, regardless of what the Hungarians and Greeks themselves do with their side of the borders. And if any Schengen country objected, I would tell them to go [email protected] themselves. They aren't the only ones who can break an agreement and act unilaterally.


One of the best posts regarding this subject :cheers2:


----------



## nenea_hartia

Eulanthe said:


> I have a friend who is involved at a fairly high level with Schengen policy here in Poland, and in his opinion, there's no hope of Romania/Bulgaria joining anytime soon. There's just too much fear over opening the door to Romania, while Bulgaria still has far too many problems.


Can you please enlighten me ? Opening the doors for what? There are already few years since I can travel all around Europe showing (if someone ask me) only my ID card. From my country I travelled to the Highlands of Scotland and to the northernmost point of Europe, Nordkapp. With a car and a caravan large enough to smuggle booze, cigarettes or prostitutes :lol:. But I didn't. 
If you believe the present Romanian/Hungarian joint border control will stop the traffic of illegal goods or immigration, than you should ask Romanian or Hungarian forumers here. That joint control is a total waste of time, resources and money. The cars are stopped for just few seconds and sometimes the border officers don't even bother to take a look at your ID, not to mention inside your car. And thank God it is like that! We're not in the Soviet era anymore.
Don't worry, the Romanian gangs and immigrants you fear so much are already in your country .



volodaaaa said:


> I don't understand. Is this a problem to get to Greece and then take a boat, ship and plane and freely get to the rest parts of Schengen? Having Romania and Bulgaria in Schengen is not a problem to me.


+1


Skyline_ said:


> Immigrants also arrive from Italy where the corridor to the rest of Europe is already open....


+1


Jack_Frost said:


> ^^yes, but why is it so difficult to make (or force) the greeks to guard their borders properly? i mean this whole issue around RO/BG and schengen is just ridicolous. i must say, i am a little disappointed by brussels when it comes to this question.


+1


----------



## piotr71

nenea_hartia said:


> Don't worry, the Romanian gangs and immigrants you fear so much are already in your country .


He does not worry about anything, Schengen's authorities do.


----------



## nenea_hartia

^ I hope no one will consider my post above offensive in any way, 'cause that was not my intention. 
As I wrote, considering my freedom of movement, lifting Schengen restrictions for my country won't mean so much, because I can already travel wherever I want. But you need to understand our frustration regarding this issue: the joint HU/RO border control, no matter how light it is now, it gives me the sad feeling that I am a second-class EU citizen . And I honestly do not understand its purpose, because:
- illegal traffic of any kind was and is still easy to do, Schengen or no Schengen;
- who wanted to leave Romania to settle in the West already did it, or will do it in the future, Schengen or no Schengen;
- if the western EU countries are afraid of the African immigrants already in Greece, would it be fair to punish my country or Bulgaria for it?

Ok, about the part where EU is trying to enforce a state of law in Romania using Schengen space as bargaining chip: I'm afraid that our politicians don't care too much about it. For them there is no border control when they travel abroad. EU could try something more effective, like a hide and seek with the post-accession funds for Romania, because otherwise is only punishing decent people.
In the end, this Schengen subject will only drive good people to Euroscepticism. I have a lot of friends who feel themselves humiliated by this unexplained refusal to lift restrictions. Not to mention what the owners of freight transport companies feel about it.

And posts like this won't help very much either :


italystf said:


> Croatia in Schengen should not be a problem if it controls well the borders with BIH, SRB and MNE.


So Croatia is not a problem if it controls its borders, but Romania and Bulgaria are, although they are controlling their borders already (according to EU Commission both countries have fulfilled all technical requirements).

So you see...


----------



## Verso

Road_UK said:


> Well, in for a penny, in for a pound. If you don't get things done properly before you embark on an adventure, you're in for nasty surprises. We've already seen that with Greece, who shouldn't have been anywhere near Europe.


Same as UK. :troll:


----------



## Kanadzie

That's why the French made sure to make the _Antienglischerschutzkanal_ to keep those wrong-side of road driving strange people a bit isolated from Europe


----------



## Eulanthe

Vaud said:


> That is actually a blessing - I don't think anyone declares the goods if nobody stops you to check them. Basically you save the french VAT since CH is not in the EU and therefore you can claim it back, whilst at the same time you don't pay the swiss VAT either (which in any case is way lower) and prices in general are also lower. In the airport is the same, I always cross my fingers - if no guards stop you to check your goods (which does happen, but not very often -i've had it twice-) then once you cross the doors it's all yours!


As I understand this - if you look at the sign on every single authorised border crossing for transporting goods, you're effectively making a declaration every time regardless of the presence of customs officers or not. I'm guessing CH wouldn't take too kindly to someone caught evading the Swiss import taxes on more than one occasion... 



> Can you please enlighten me ? Opening the doors for what? There are already few years since I can travel all around Europe showing (if someone ask me) only my ID card. From my country I travelled to the Highlands of Scotland and to the northernmost point of Europe, Nordkapp. With a car and a caravan large enough to smuggle booze, cigarettes or prostitutes . But I didn't.
> If you believe the present Romanian/Hungarian joint border control will stop the traffic of illegal goods or immigration, than you should ask Romanian or Hungarian forumers here. That joint control is a total waste of time, resources and money. The cars are stopped for just few seconds and sometimes the border officers don't even bother to take a look at your ID, not to mention inside your car. And thank God it is like that! We're not in the Soviet era anymore.


Yup, it's all complete nonsense. The Hungarians in particular obviously couldn't care less, and it seems that they don't even bother to query the Schengen database for the vast majority of travellers. Speaking as someone who strongly believes in Schengen - the situation at the minute is a farce. If we don't trust Romania, why aren't we checking everyone properly at the border, like the HU/SRB border?

The fear I talk about is mostly in the heads of some Western politicians who have never been to the HU/RO border to see how it works in practice anyway. I suspect that it's all really to do with the Roma population - as it stands, if things deteriorate badly in Western Europe with them, they can be deported back to Romania and border controls used to keep them out of Schengen on some vague legal grounds.

But yes, I agree that Romania and Bulgaria should just unilaterally lift their controls on the land border at least. There's certainly nothing stopping them creating a mini-Schengen space with Bulgaria, after all. They aren't in Schengen, and there's nothing stopping EU members from having their own free travel area - the UK/Ireland have their own, and the Benelux had one before Schengen too. 

Does anyone know if Hungary and Romania are even bothering to patrol the land border these days? 

Having said all this, I think the way that some Schengen members treat the border with non-Schengen countries is an absolute joke. If anything, we need Bulgaria and Romania in simply so that we go back to guarding most of the Schengen border properly.


----------



## and802

nenea_hartia said:


> ^
> 
> ... As I wrote, considering my freedom of movement, lifting Schengen restrictions for my country won't mean so much, because I can already travel wherever I want. But you need to understand our frustration regarding this issue: the joint HU/RO border control, no matter how light it is now, it gives me the sad feeling that I am a second-class EU citizen ...



if I were you (Romanian) I would worry too much. OK you are out of Schengen... so what ? you guys still can travel wherever you want with United Europe. OK, on your way to West Europe you have to break up some ID at HU Border. does it really hurt you ? all in all Germans have to pop up their own IDs at RO border. 

definately being in Schengen/out of Schengen does not make me feel a second-class EU citizien.

definatly the point is:
*once my nation becomes rich everybody will be knocking at my door*. so lets improve things in our own countries and soon everything will be alright


----------



## Kirov88

nenea_hartia said:


> ^ I hope no one will consider my post above offensive in any way, 'cause that was not my intention.
> As I wrote, considering my freedom of movement, lifting Schengen restrictions for my country won't mean so much, because I can already travel wherever I want. But you need to understand our frustration regarding this issue: the joint HU/RO border control, no matter how light it is now, it gives me the sad feeling that I am a second-class EU citizen . And I honestly do not understand its purpose, because:
> - illegal traffic of any kind was and is still easy to do, Schengen or no Schengen;
> - who wanted to leave Romania to settle in the West already did it, or will do it in the future, Schengen or no Schengen;
> - if the western EU countries are afraid of the African immigrants already in Greece, would it be fair to punish my country or Bulgaria for it?
> 
> Ok, about the part where EU is trying to enforce a state of law in Romania using Schengen space as bargaining chip: I'm afraid that our politicians don't care too much about it. For them there is no border control when they travel abroad. EU could try something more effective, like a hide and seek with the post-accession funds for Romania, because otherwise is only punishing decent people.
> In the end, this Schengen subject will only drive good people to Euroscepticism. I have a lot of friends who feel themselves humiliated by this unexplained refusal to lift restrictions. Not to mention what the owners of freight transport companies feel about it.
> 
> And posts like this won't help very much either :
> 
> So Croatia is not a problem if it controls its borders, but Romania and Bulgaria are, although they are controlling their borders already (according to EU Commission both countries have fulfilled all technical requirements).
> 
> So you see...


The main problem with Romania and Bulgaria joining the Schengen treaty is the influx of new criminals. We already have huge problems with Polish and Romanian criminals. Also, because of EU law, we have to pay social security to foreigners, that have worked here, but already returned to their country of origin. This makes it highly unpopular for new cases.

Middle and Western Europe needs new labor and the demand increases a lot during the next two decades because of the aging population but the people from, especially Romania, that add value to are workforce, are already here.


----------



## MichiH

Kirov88 said:


> The main problem with Romania and Bulgaria joining the Schengen treaty is the influx of new criminals.


They are already here . There will be no difference after joining Schengen...


----------



## nbcee

In the last few years before Hungary joined Schengen the HU/AU border crossing was similar to what cinxxx has described. The Austrian border guards just looked at our IDs for a second or in some cases even before before wanted to show it to them they just said _Meh _and let us pass.


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## and802

my country joined Schengen a couple years ago, sorry I do not see any difference before and after that fact.

if the law forces me to show a passort ath the border - ok, I do it. really I do not care/do not mind/do not feel humiliated

as I said before once my country becomes reach everybody will be willing to cooperate/do business with me. whether we have borders or not this does not change the facts: you will not find any collegues as long as you are poor.

so first each east europe nation needs to improve economy in own country then immediately rich west coutnries will be asking to come. this proces takes some decades and some people are not patient. so lets focus on our internal matters and then borders disappear.


----------



## Singidunum

nbcee said:


> In the last few years before Hungary joined Schengen the HU/AU border crossing was similar to what cinxxx has described. The Austrian border guards just looked at our IDs for a second or in some cases even before before wanted to show it to them they just said _Meh _and let us pass.


This is beginning to slowly take place at HU-SRB border as well. I don't know how imminent or not imminent the EU accession of Serbia is and if that is related to more lax control but they are definitely not dour like before. It might have something to do with that switch of border control to regular police. Customs on the other hand don't wave anyone through, even if they waived you through passport control, even if you are in the EU lane, you still have to open your trunk for inspection. But they are quick.

Also if you browse some internet forums out there, you will see that overstaying your maximum stay of 90 days in the EU is not a problem at all, if you are coming back via Hungary  Just like the lack of visa wasn't really a problem for those bold enough to ask how to solve that little issue lol


----------



## nbcee

Singidunum said:


> This is beginning to slowly take place at HU-SRB border as well. I don't know how imminent or not imminent the EU accession of Serbia is and if that is related to more lax control but they are definitely not dour like before. It might have something to do with that switch of border control to regular police. Customs on the other hand don't wave anyone through, even if they waived you through passport control, even if you are in the EU lane, you still have to open your trunk for inspection. But they are quick.
> 
> Also if you browse some internet forums out there, you will see that overstaying your maximum stay of 90 days in the EU is not a problem at all, if you are coming back via Hungary  Just like the lack of visa wasn't really a problem for those bold enough to ask how to solve that little issue lol


Need I remind you that the Hungarian border control is so efficient that not even bears can cross the border without showing their ID or passport :lol:


----------



## volodaaaa

Singidunum said:


> This is beginning to slowly take place at HU-SRB border as well. I don't know how imminent or not imminent the EU accession of Serbia is and if that is related to more lax control but they are definitely not dour like before. It might have something to do with that switch of border control to regular police. Customs on the other hand don't wave anyone through, even if they waived you through passport control, even if you are in the EU lane, you still have to open your trunk for inspection. But they are quick.
> 
> Also if you browse some internet forums out there, you will see that overstaying your maximum stay of 90 days in the EU is not a problem at all, if you are coming back via Hungary  Just like the lack of visa wasn't really a problem for those bold enough to ask how to solve that little issue lol


I have noticed that situation on SRB/H borders get worse after Hungarian accession to Schengen. But it might be influenced by summer holiday season I always drive during.


----------



## Singidunum

nbcee said:


> Need I remind you that the Hungarian border control is so efficient that not even bears can cross the border without showing their ID or passport :lol:


Serbian animal rights groups were scandalized that Hungarian police called hunters after the bear and issued an appeal not to shoot this rare species


----------



## nbcee

Singidunum said:


> Serbian animal rights groups were scandalized that Hungarian police called hunters after the bear and issued an appeal not to shoot this rare species


Yes there were both hunters and border guards sitting in the car which approached the bear, but they were only there as a last resort.


----------



## nenea_hartia

italystf said:


> Isn't it against EU laws? They should at least check ID and license plate, to make sure that persons and vehicles don't belong to the "police blacklist". The outer Schengen border should be controlled, especially if RO and BG cannot patrol well their borders with UA, MD and TR.


As explained before by other fellow forumers, RO and BG have already fulfilled all technical requirements, meaning the outer EU borders are secured as good as possible. All EU governments and EU Commission have acknowledged that fact. I was witness myself to border controls at our eastern and northern borders with Moldova and Ukraine, and they are very drastic. Although for Romania is not a pleasure to do it, because most part of the people who cross those borders coming from Moldova or Ukraine are of Romanian origin, sometimes even Romanian citizens.
Regarding RO/HU border, yes, Romanian and Hungarian officers are not checking very carefully our Romanian or Hungarian IDs. Still, I'm sure they have CCTV cameras with plate detection system at least at the main borders (Nădlac-Nagylak and Borș-Ártánd). Moreover, I'm sure they will suddenly change their attitude if you're coming from Africa, central Asia, or the former Soviet Union.
But enough with this discussion!


----------



## Laurentzius

Eulanthe said:


> Yup, it's all complete nonsense. The Hungarians in particular obviously couldn't care less, and it seems that they don't even bother to query the Schengen database for the vast majority of travellers. Speaking as someone who strongly believes in Schengen - the situation at the minute is a farce. If we don't trust Romania, why aren't we checking everyone properly at the border, like the HU/SRB border?


Maybe because Romanians are EU citizens and thus have certain rights? You cannot compare a Schengen border that is still intra-EU with one that is both a Schengen border and an external border of the EU. The latter are properly guarded, you needn't worry. 



Eulanthe said:


> The fear I talk about is mostly in the heads of some Western politicians who have never been to the HU/RO border to see how it works in practice anyway. I suspect that it's all really to do with the Roma population - as it stands, if things deteriorate badly in Western Europe with them, they can be deported back to Romania and border controls used to keep them out of Schengen on some vague legal grounds.


You might be right about the inanity of the WE politicians, but I rather believe they try to exploit the ignorance of all things Schengen of a large part of their electorate. Lots of people, and you don't have to look further than this very thread, believe that keeping Ro&BG outside of Schengen will also keep out Romanian and Bulgarian workers, criminals, and my personal favorite, 'benefit tourists'. It's funny how an imaginary line on a map makes some people feel secure. 

As for the Roma population, you can't keep them out of Schengen on some 'vague legal grounds' more than you can keep out, for example, EU citizens of African ancestry. If let's say France deported a Roma properly as in with a court order, the Hungarian border police would still let him cross the Ro&Hu border because the deportation order only applies to French territory and not all Schengen member states. That's why most Roma 'deported' by France back to Romania and Bulgaria are back within days. They keep doing this useless ping-pong only because it makes some French politicians like Manuel Carlos Valls look tough on crime and immigration in the eyes of ignorant voters.



volodaaaa said:


> I don't understand. Is this a problem to get to Greece and then take a boat, ship and plane and freely get to the rest parts of Schengen? Having Romania and Bulgaria in Schengen is not a problem to me.


Of course it is a problem. To board a plane you need to go through an identity check aka you need an ID card if you're an EU citizen or a passport with a visa if you aren't. Why do you think there still are so many illegal immigrants in Greece, if it was so easy to go to Western Europe? 



> According to the Schengen acquis, which has been integrated into the framework of the European Union with the entry into force of the Treaty of Amsterdam, internal borders between Member States applying the Schengen acquis may be crossed without any checks on persons being carried out.
> 
> Authorities of the Member States are thus not allowed to carry out checks solely for the reason that the person is crossing the internal border.
> 
> This does not affect the right of airline companies to carry out identity checks within a commercial framework, i.e. when the passenger checks in, with a view to ensuring that he/she is the person indicated on the ticket or that he/she is entitled to certain discounts.
> 
> In addition, carriers are allowed to undertake checks for security reasons, for instance in order to ensure that the person boarding the plane corresponds to the person indicated on the ticket or where there are concerns that a person, whose conduct might disturb or jeopardise the safety of other passengers, boards an airplane. Such checks also apply to domestic flights.
> 
> *These checks can be conducted through the verification of a passport or an identity card.* Some carriers are organising pilot projects — according to our knowledge on a voluntary basis — with new technologies allowing the identification of a person.


source



> Q: *Do I need an ID to board and travel by ferry in Greece?*
> 
> A: No passport nor ID is required in order to travel within Greece by ferry. *You will need one using international lines traveling to/from Italy* and Turkey.


source



Kirov88 said:


> The main problem with Romania and Bulgaria joining the Schengen treaty is the influx of new criminals. We already have huge problems with Polish and Romanian criminals. Also, because of EU law, we have to pay social security to foreigners, that have worked here, but already returned to their country of origin. This makes it highly unpopular for new cases.


I would suggest you to learn some basic facts about the Schengen Area. You could start by checking out this Wiki page, Schengen Area. You'll see that it has nothing to do with stopping criminals or 'benefit tourists'. The only way to stop an EU citizen to enter an EU member state is to have a deportation order on his name, deportation order that is exclusively valid for the territory of the said member state. 



> *Union citizens or members of their family may be expelled from the host Member State on grounds of public policy, public security or public health. Under no circumstances may an expulsion decision be taken on economic grounds.* Measures affecting freedom of movement and residence must comply with the proportionality principle and be based exclusively on the personal conduct of the individual concerned. Such conduct must represent a sufficiently serious and present threat which affects the fundamental interests of the state.
> 
> *Previous criminal convictions do not automatically justify expulsion.*


source



italystf said:


> Isn't it against EU laws? They should at least check ID and license plate, to make sure that persons and vehicles don't belong to the "police blacklist". The outer Schengen border should be controlled, especially if RO and BG cannot patrol well their borders with UA, MD and TR.


There's no Schengen "police blacklist", or at least you cannot forbid an EU citizen to enter the Schengen Area even if he is on such a list. There is indeed the SIS database, but unless you're requested by a judicial authority the border police cannot stop you from crossing the border. 



italystf said:


> I was not saying: RO and BG: problematic countries and HR: normal country
> It's more related to the geographical location: RO and BG are on the edge of the Europe, thus they are the gateway for many illegal immigrants from Asia, Middle East and former Soviet states. So they should join Schengen only if they show enough authority to control their borders.


I'm sure you'll excuse me if I trust the European Commission and Parliament more then your words. 



> *Parliament on Wednesday gave its green light for Bulgaria and Romania to join the Schengen border check-free area. MEPs say they have met the entry conditions, based on progress reports*, but add that Parliament should be kept informed of additional measures taken in the Bulgaria-Turkey-Greece area to cope with a possible surge in migration pressure. Parliament’s opinion will now be sent to EU homes affairs ministers meeting on Thursday in Luxembourg.


source

I don't deny that RO and especially BG are a gateway for illegal immigrants, but I'm pretty sure more immigrants get into the Schengen Area through Italy than the 2 countries. Allowing Romania and Bulgaria into Schengen won't change much for would-be immigrants, but it'll give some credit to EU's claim of being an union of "equals around a table". :2cents:

P.S. Sorry for the awfully long comment.


----------



## Verso

Can we go back to border crossings?


----------



## Singidunum

Jaša Tomić-Foeni crossing between Romania and Serbia was opened for all traffic during Holidays and it should become an international crossing after Romania approves the idea. Serbia approved the idea in 2009.http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Drustvo/42...Rumuniji-otvoren-od-24-decembra-do-15-januara Right now there are two RO-SRB crossings in Banat near Srpska Crnja and Vatin.

It seems Serbia is way more interested in opening this crossing



















than Romania


----------



## bogdymol

nenea_hartia said:


> I'm sure they will suddenly


I remembered that back in 2010 I crossed the HU-RO border (into Romania, so out of Schengen) with a passenger in my car that was a United States citizen. They scanned his passport into the computer and asked 2-3 general questions, but we were free to go in 1 minute.


----------



## nenea_hartia

^ Just 2-3 questions? They should be more carefully in the future with those Americans, I don't want them to come, settle, steal our jobs and abuse our health care system. 

@*Singidunum:* sad to see those ruins and the unpaved road on Romanian side. :bash::bash:

I'm sure it has been posted before, here is another example, this time with the unpaved road in Serbia. I don't understand why our governments and local authorities don't try to do more in order to connect our two countries. Not to mention, on whole section where Danube is the natural border we have only one open connection, although at least Iron Gates-2 border crossing could be fully operational. hno:


----------



## stickedy

Iron Gates 2 is closed? Why?


----------



## Kanadzie

I like the Romanian border crossing without even a dirt road, just a field that over time some cars have worn away part of the grass. It is certainly charming


----------



## cinxxx

stickedy said:


> Iron Gates 2 is closed? Why?


I thought it was reopened last year?


----------



## Alex_ZR

Singidunum said:


> Right now there are two RO-SRB crossings in Banat near Srpska Crnja and Vatin.


There is a third one: Kaluđerovo(SRB)-Naidăş(RO)


----------



## Singidunum

nenea_hartia said:


> @*Singidunum:* sad to see those ruins and the unpaved road on Romanian side. :bash::bash:


It's unclear, if this was used as a regular crossing before, why didn't they pave it? Although the road is paved up to the crossing http://goo.gl/maps/QjSGC :dunno: Though it may have been paved relatively recently, there is a plate with EU flag on the other side, can't see the text.



nenea_hartia said:


> I'm sure it has been posted before, here is another example, this time with the unpaved road in Serbia. I don't understand why our governments and local authorities don't try to do more in order to connect our two countries. Not to mention, on whole section where Danube is the natural border we have only one open connection, although at least Iron Gates-2 border crossing could be fully operational. hno:


Yes although that's never used as a crossing except on some event once a year, and even then it's not really a crossing but a free zone. There are many optional crossings but most of them are either closed or used just for the local traffic http://www.mup.gov.rs/cms/slike.nsf/granicna-policija-mapa-velika.jpg

What is wrong with the Djerdap 2 crossing? It seems it's closed for buses and trucks but that's it.


----------



## Singidunum

Another crossing of those you can see on the map that are closed was opened during the holidays, although this one just for 2 days - Nakovo - Lunga

Video:

http://www.rts.rs/page/stories/sr/s...386/Otvoren+granični+prelaz+Nakovo-Lunga.html

It's otherwise deserted http://goo.gl/maps/qwP0B and you can see on the video some Cold War sign in Russian and English :runaway:










Here is another video






Well as I search it seems all of them were opened at least for a few days, some for a month. Vrbica–Valkanj was also opened during the Pumpkin Days in Kikinda. Also a very bad road http://goo.gl/maps/no6T5

These openings are the initiative of the Consulate General of Serbia in Timisoara and Timiș Perfect.

Crossings were closed in July 2004 when Romania abruptly decided to introduce visas for citizens of Serbia and Montenegro (and S-M reciprocated) and thus the traffic went down significantly.


----------



## cinxxx

I read somewhere they were open before Romania became an EU member or something like that. After that RO had to introduce visas for Serbian citizens to align with EU, and these smaller border crossings were closed. Sometime later visas were lifted by the EU, also possibility to cross only by ID introduced. But these crossings remained closed. 

I read in local RO media from time to time that they will be open again...


----------



## Theijs

Jack_Frost said:


> yes, if i am not mistaken we have 4 roads which are currently useless because there were no border checkpoints built. In a few months M43 will be a road like this too


to avoid that, a big parking lot has been designed at the RO side of the border for temporarily / instant border checks and to get cheaper fuel.


----------



## bogdymol

Alex_ZR said:


> There is a third one: Kaluđerovo(SRB)-Naidăş(RO)
> 
> https://static.panoramio.com.storage.googleapis.com/photos/large/52297502.jpg
> 
> 
> https://static.panoramio.com.storage.googleapis.com/photos/large/82798537.jpg


A Serbian guy smuggled through that border few days ago cigarettes worth 250k €. It seems that he did it with the help of the border police agents (who got 15k € as a bribe).

Another interesting fact about that border crossing: about 2 years ago there was a mass investigation related to corruption at the Romanian borders. The main idea was that some of the border agents allowed people to cross the border with illegal quantities of goods (cigarettes & alcohol) for a substantial bribe. The investigation team discovered that there were border police agents at that border crossing (Naidăș) that were living in Arad. That's 3 hours of drive in each direction, so a total of 6 hours/day just for the daily commute. And they did this commute on their own money. So how could they afford to commute 380 km every day from their standard wage?


----------



## Alex_ZR

cinxxx said:


> I read somewhere they were open before Romania became an EU member or something like that. After that RO had to introduce visas for Serbian citizens to align with EU, and these smaller border crossings were closed. Sometime later visas were lifted by the EU, also possibility to cross only by ID introduced. But these crossings remained closed.
> 
> I read in local RO media from time to time that they will be open again...


I posted about these small border crossings couple of weeks ago in this thread. 

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=109989921&postcount=9044


----------



## Singidunum

cinxxx said:


> I read somewhere they were open before Romania became an EU member or something like that. After that RO had to introduce visas for Serbian citizens to align with EU, and these smaller border crossings were closed. Sometime later visas were lifted by the EU, also possibility to cross only by ID introduced. But these crossings remained closed.
> 
> I read in local RO media from time to time that they will be open again...


It says they were shut down in July 2004 and I searched news, that's when Romania introduced visas for Serbian-Montenegrin citizens. It was a nasty situation because Romania wasn't obliged to do that until January 1, 2007 (that is when Bulgaria introduced visas) and it was seen as an overzealous move by Romania to please the EU (yes Romania wasn't always "up yours" with the EU :lol so the response was introduction of visas for Romanian citizens (I am not sure if they were lifted in 2007 or at the same time when the EU lifted visas for Serbian and Montenegrin citizens in 2009, you'll know more).


----------



## Singidunum

bogdymol said:


> A Serbian guy smuggled through that border few days ago cigarettes worth 250k €. It seems that he did it with the help of the border police agents (who got 15k € as a bribe).


Business as usual. Actually this is pretty small, didn't they talk about some millions a year or two ago?



bogdymol said:


> Another interesting fact about that border crossing: about 2 years ago there was a mass investigation related to corruption at the Romanian borders. The main idea was that some of the border agents allowed people to cross the border with illegal quantities of goods (cigarettes & alcohol) for a substantial bribe. The investigation team discovered that there were border police agents at that border crossing (Naidăș) that were living in Arad. That's 3 hours of drive in each direction, so a total of 6 hours/day just for the daily commute. And they did this commute on their own money. So how could they afford to commute 380 km every day from their standard wage?


You need to bribe a lot to become a customs officer on the border checkpoint. But they say it pays off quickly


----------



## Penn's Woods

Verso said:


> Same as UK. :troll:


Aren't Greece and the UK in Europe, just like Switzerland and Norway? EU or not?

:troll:


----------



## Penn's Woods

Kanadzie said:


> That's why the French made sure to make the _Antienglischerschutzkanal_ to keep those wrong-side of road driving strange people a bit isolated from Europe


Except when their good friends have invaded and they need England's help.


----------



## parcdesprinces

Penn's Woods said:


> Except when their good friends have invaded and they need England's help.


??? 
I don't remember of that. When did it happen? :dunno:


Bonus (about our good friends and us :grouphug:
:bowtie: 










:troll:


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^1914 and 1940.

I realize it's much, much easier for Europe to throw moral condemnation around the world and be taken seriously if it pretends history began in 1946, but it didn't.


----------



## Nikkodemo

*A very particular case in USA-Canada borderline, Point Roberts:*

































































Boundary Marker at Point Roberts por J. Stephen Conn, en Flickr​


----------



## alserrod

What's the purpose of that railway?


----------



## Nikkodemo

^^ I´m sorry, the railway is not located in Point Roberts.


----------



## bogdymol

Singidunum said:


> Business as usual. Actually this is pretty small, didn't they talk about some millions a year or two ago?


Yes, that's true. I was just pointing out that this time they smuggled 250k € worth of cigarettes in only one transport.



Singidunum said:


> You need to bribe a lot to become a customs officer on the border checkpoint. But they say it pays off quickly


Yes, this story is also widespread in Romania.


----------



## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> What's the purpose of that railway?


I think it leads to a ferry to Vancouver Island.


----------



## JackFrost

point roberts reminds me of the "northwest angle" in minnesota. almost the same story.


----------



## Kemo

Nikkodemo said:


> ​


​ 
Then I suppose it is not a good idea to play basketball here, because if you accidentally throw the ball over the fence you might get arrested while trying to retrieve it.


----------



## italystf

Jack_Frost said:


> point roberts reminds me of the "northwest angle" in minnesota. almost the same story.


https://maps.google.it/maps?q=north...+Woods,+Minnesota,+Stati+Uniti&gl=it&t=m&z=10

Or, on the countrary, also the Campobello island (Canadian territory accessible only from the US).
https://maps.google.it/maps?q=Campo...lo+isl&gl=it&hnear=Campobello+Island&t=m&z=12


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^I've been to Campobello. The only road access is from the U.S., but there's a ferry, at least in the summer, continuing farther into Canada. (I took it.)


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Or, on the countrary, also the Campobello island (Canadian territory accessible only from the US).
> https://maps.google.it/maps?q=Campo...lo+isl&gl=it&hnear=Campobello+Island&t=m&z=12


Interesting, I've never heard of this one.


----------



## Nikkodemo

Verso said:


> Interesting, I've never heard of this one.


*Neither do I:*


West Quoddy Head Light in Lubec, Maine por Dana Moos, en Flickr


Lubec, Maine, post office and customs gate por rpkrajewski, en Flickr


Bridge to Campobello por smilla4, en Flickr


Goodbye U.S.A. Hello Canada! por smilla4, en Flickr


FDR Memorial Bridge, Lubec, Maine (ME) por bobindrums, en Flickr


2006_0701_Maine_076 por TMAC71, en Flickr


----------



## Kanadzie

Singidunum said:


> Apparently bordering states have mutual agreements in the US that allow for this, plus there seems to be some uniform act adopted by unknown number of states that says when police crosses state line in pursuit they can still make an arrest.
> 
> http://law.onecle.com/michigan/780-criminal-procedure/mcl-780-101.html


Even US / Canada border has similar arrangement. But... probably no way the person will cross border with police in pursuit, unless he is running in the forest :lol:



italystf said:


> during communism, it wasn't a joke, one who did the same job in the 70s spent a week in jail in Koper until the Italian embassy in Belgrade asked for being released (and he was banned to entry in Yugoslavia until the country dissolved).


I laughed at this comment. It is an amusing concept, banned from entering the country permanently. But, you can go back, as the country you are banned from no longer exists :lol:


----------



## italystf

Kanadzie said:


> I laughed at this comment. It is an amusing concept, banned from entering the country permanently. But, you can go back, as the country you are banned from no longer exists :lol:


It's not only the country that dissolved but also the regime that changed, since after 1991 there was no more communism. It would be the same if it was, for example, Hungary, even if this country continued to exist after the switch to the democracy.


----------



## Eulanthe

Singidunum said:


> Don't they already exist? Here is a video about joint border patrols of Bosnian border guards with those of Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro.


Not as unified units, no. There are joint patrols, but what I'm talking about is specific units set up that can operate in either territory freely. The idea is that the nationality of the officer then would be meaningless - both (for instance) Polish and German officers would be free to operate either side of the border regardless of the origin of the officer.

It perhaps wouldn't work where historical conflicts are concerned, but there's no reason why the Dutch and Belgians (for instance) couldn't have binational police forces in border areas. I seem to remember that one absurdity of Baarle is that they have two police forces operating there!


----------



## Singidunum

italystf said:


> During Yugoslavia times and also with Slovenia until 2007 some small border crossings were open only to people living less than 10km from them (both in Italy or in Slovenia\Yugoslavia).


Interestingly Slovenia demolished all small border crossings with Croatia when it joined Schengen. http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Svet/10592/Slovenija-rusi-mostove-ka-Hrvatskoj


----------



## Sisimoto the HUN

italystf said:


> It's not only the country that dissolved but also the regime that changed, since after 1991 there was no more communism. It would be the same if it was, for example, Hungary, even if this country continued to exist after the switch to the democracy.


Bad analogy....hno:


----------



## Singidunum

Actually it's not, it's a perfect analogy, couldn't be better. Why? Well unlike maybe some other countries Hungary made it pretty clear in it's Constitution

_We do not recognise the communist constitution of 1949, since it was the basis for tyrannical rule; therefore we proclaim it to be invalid._
_We date the restoration of our country’s self-determination, lost on the nineteenth day of March 1944, from the second day of May 1990, when the first freely elected organ of popular representation was formed. We shall consider this date to be the beginning of our country’s new democracy and constitutional order._
http://www.kormany.hu/download/e/2a/d0000/THE FUNDAMENTAL LAW OF HUNGARY.pdf


----------



## italystf

Sisimoto the HUN said:


> Bad analogy....hno:


Why? The only other possible analogies (country that kept the same borders and name after communism) were Poland, Albania, Romania and Bulgaria, i picked one randomly.


----------



## Eulanthe

Singidunum said:


> Interestingly Slovenia demolished all small border crossings with Croatia when it joined Schengen. http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Svet/10592/Slovenija-rusi-mostove-ka-Hrvatskoj


No, not all. There are still plenty of crossings easily accessible. They did demolish many of the smallest ones (that were often nothing more than a bit of wood across a small stream) - but many others remain. For instance, this one near Bregana/Slovenska Vas - http://goo.gl/maps/uyxhq

I think there's also one close to Hum na Sutli/Rogatec that remains wide open, not to mention that the Sutla (is that the name?) river is easily crossed by anyone capable of jumping more than a metre.


----------



## Singidunum

I meant official crossings. Of course you can jump over but that's illegal. Demolishing or closing 115 bridges is a significant number I think. Of course 60 crossings remain but many had been shut down.

http://goo.gl/maps/NNkE1


----------



## Eulanthe

Singidunum said:


> I meant official crossings. Of course you can jump over but that's illegal. Demolishing or closing 115 bridges is a significant number I think. Of course 60 crossings remain but many had been shut down.
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/NNkE1


As far as I understand it, most of those closed before Schengen weren't actually open in the first place - it was only that locals had passes allowing them to pass the border at any point. Most of the ones demolished were 'unofficial' bridges built by locals - you'll notice that along the border, there are still plenty of border crossings easily accessible. 

http://goo.gl/maps/id4Am

Why Slovenia and Croatia don't open these crossings up as tourist crossings is entirely beyond me.

I had an interesting discussion with Croatian/Slovenian border guards about this - their opinion (officially) was that crossing at those points isn't allowed, but in reality, it is tolerated for locals as long as they have a local border pass or ID card. With Croatia joining the EU, there's really no reason why these crossings can't be opened up for EU citizens with random checks as appropriate.


----------



## Laurentzius

Eulanthe said:


> I had an interesting discussion with Croatian/Slovenian border guards about this - their opinion (officially) was that crossing at those points isn't allowed, but in reality, it is tolerated for locals as long as they have a local border pass or ID card. With Croatia joining the EU, there's really no reason why these crossings can't be opened up for EU citizens with random checks as appropriate.


Maybe you should have a discussion with your fairly high level Schengen friend. He might be able to explain to you how Schengen border checks are carried out, and why your suggestions are superfluous.


----------



## Verso

Singidunum said:


> http://goo.gl/maps/NNkE1


Even though the text is barely legible, I can read something like "prijelaz državne granice dozvoljen imatelju pogranične propusnice ...", so locals may cross it.


----------



## Singidunum

I believe it says that the nearest crossing where they can be used is 2km away

Here you can see it better http://goo.gl/maps/LzeIE


----------



## acrosstheworld

Stanstead, Quebec and Derby Line, Vermont (Canada / USA border on the east) could be another interesting international border.

..........
Residents of Stanstead, Quebec and Derby Line, Vermont face fines of up to $5,000 - just for walking across the …For residents of two towns on the border between Canada and the U.S., crossing the street can be a complicated and expensive affair. 

Between the towns of Stanstead, QC, and Derby Line, Vt., lies a border marked by a row of flower pots.

It's one of several haphazardly erected divides between the two towns, which share a library that has a front door on American soil and a back door in Canada. Some residents even have to report to a border post every time they pull out of their driveways because they've entered Canadian soil, according to a 2007 New York Times story.

More information here:

Stanstead, Quebec

Canada-U.S. border marked by flower 

The Canada-U.S. Border


----------



## Verso

^^ Already discussed on previous pages.



Singidunum said:


> I believe it says that the nearest crossing where they can be used is 2km away
> 
> Here you can see it better http://goo.gl/maps/LzeIE


That's just information for non-locals, at least in your first link. Btw, this bridge looks like the border between Croatia and North Korea.


----------



## Singidunum

But you can see the sign on both that means it's prohibited to walk there










You can see the same sign in Saatse Boot http://goo.gl/maps/QeYMj

Interesting story about it from a few months ago and mushroom pickers

http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/article/4081811-saatse-boot-last-crumb-russian-empire


----------



## Verso

Singidunum said:


> But you can see the sign on both that means it's prohibited to walk there


With text added, which always overruns the meaning of the upper sign (I'm talking about the first link), otherwise there would be no point in writing anything.


----------



## italystf

Singidunum said:


> But you can see the sign on both that means it's prohibited to walk there
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see the same sign in Saatse Boot http://goo.gl/maps/QeYMj
> 
> Interesting story about it from a few months ago and mushroom pickers
> 
> http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/article/4081811-saatse-boot-last-crumb-russian-empire


The article says that it's an enclave, but it isn't, just an Estonian road crossing a bit of Russia.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

There is a bit of County Monaghan in the Republic of Ireland that is only accessible by road from Fermanagh in the North.

https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=54.143937,-7.291317&spn=0.066162,0.198269&t=m&z=13


----------



## Eulanthe

Laurentzius said:


> Maybe you should have a discussion with your fairly high level Schengen friend. He might be able to explain to you how Schengen border checks are carried out, and why your suggestions are superfluous.


No need to discuss anything - a casual look at the history of the CZ-DE border shows that many pedestrian border crossings in the 2004-2007 era were left unguarded some of the time. Schengen in theory requires a so called minimum-check to be carried out, but the reality on the ground is that EU members don't particularly care about guarding the frontiers with other EU countries of a similar economic status. Even before Switzerland joined Schengen, France had little interest in systematically controlling the border. 

A simple amendment to the Schengen Borders Code allowing people owning local border passes to walk across the border would suffice in terms of legality. Or if this is too much trouble - simply declare to the EU where these border crossings are and don't bother to control them.

Anyone who knows the reality on the ground knows that Schengen rules are ignored when it comes to countries considered safe. It's not like the Croatia/Slovenia border was guarded heavily pre-July 2013.

Anyway, a look above shows a link to a border crossing with a sign allowing passage for those in possession of a valid local border pass. So - the reality on the ground is that these crossings already exist, just that there's not enough of them. 

Schengen may be ultra-strict when it comes to the border with countries such as Ukraine and Russia, but it has never been particularly strict in other cases.

Incidentally, from my last trip to Croatia, it's clear that the Croatian police can grant permission for people to cross the border at any point. I had this discussion with the police there about Zeljava - if I had a valid reason, then they would be happy for me to cross the border there. I asked about other locations, and the same rule applied - if someone can get permission from border police on both sides, then a pass may be issued to cross the border freely for a certain amount of time.

Schengen rules are - like most EU rules - flexible.


----------



## Eulanthe

While we're on the topic of Neum, has anyone here visited the area since last July? I'd like to know some things...

- Is Croatia carrying out comprehensive entry/exit checks these days?
- What about BiH - are they treating it now as a serious border crossing?


----------



## Markowice10

In September 2013.
No control was in Neum.


----------



## arctic_carlos

Eulanthe said:


> While we're on the topic of Neum, has anyone here visited the area since last July? I'd like to know some things...
> 
> - Is Croatia carrying out comprehensive entry/exit checks these days?
> - What about BiH - are they treating it now as a serious border crossing?


I crossed Neum borders twice in September, and the exit and entry checks by both Croatia and BiH were not comprehensive at all, I don't remember exactly whether it was in the Croatian or in the Bosnian side, but one of the times we did not have to stop at all; the other times they just asked us where were we from and where were we going to, but they did not look at our passports.. 

In contrast, we also used Ivanica and Metkovic border crossings during that trip and there was a huge difference, especially in Metkovic (entering Croatia), where the control was really exhaustive. Using Ivanica to enter BiH is a unique experience, the guard manually opened the barrier and we got BiH stamps in our passports (not in Neum).


----------



## cinxxx

arctic_carlos said:


> In contrast, we also used Ivanica and Metkovic border crossings during that trip and there was a huge difference, especially in Metkovic (entering Croatia), where the control was really exhaustive. *Using Ivanica to enter BiH is a unique experience, the guard manually opened the barrier and we got BiH stamps in our passports (not in Neum)*.


Good to know if someone wants stamps


----------



## Eulanthe

Thank you to both of you for your comments, it helps with my research 



arctic_carlos said:


> I crossed Neum borders twice in September, and the exit and entry checks by both Croatia and BiH were not comprehensive at all, I don't remember exactly whether it was in the Croatian or in the Bosnian side, but one of the times we did not have to stop at all; the other times they just asked us where were we from and where were we going to, but they did not look at our passports..


Sigh - this is exactly what makes a mockery of border controls. They went to the effort of building the new facilities, then they don't actually bother to control things at all. Apparently the reason for the loose BiH control is that a secondary control exists outside of Neum on the road towards Mostar, but that's no reason for Croatia to have such lax controls. Certainly - I'd expect at least a decent Customs control given that the prices on certain goods will have to rise considerably to EU norms. 



> In contrast, we also used Ivanica and Metkovic border crossings during that trip and there was a huge difference, especially in Metkovic (entering Croatia), where the control was really exhaustive. Using Ivanica to enter BiH is a unique experience, the guard manually opened the barrier and we got BiH stamps in our passports (not in Neum).


That shows how times have changed - when I used Metkovic last time in 2011, the control was incredibly laid back by Croatia. Ivanica is a great experience, I agree - did the BiH officer also take your passports into his hut to check?

Manual opening of gates also exists at the 'other' HR/MNE border at...I forget the name, the one near Prevlaka  I had a great laugh there with the MNE customs/passport control guys there - the traffic was minimal and they were just sitting back in the sun and enjoying themselves. Even the Croatian guards were doing nothing much other than sitting and watching the bay.

As for stamps - I could kill the Croatians for the mess that they've made with my passport, including stamping one page in the middle that had 4 very neatly placed Ukrainian stamps!


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> a secondary control exists outside of Neum on the road towards Mostar


Really? Where exactly?


----------



## an-148

I'm living in Ivanica the whole summer and I can say that the checks are harrassing during the summer holidays (holidays of people of Trebinje)and the warm weekends outside the holidays !! (from my house, I see files up to 3 hours (only 1 car per 4 to 5 minutes) !! (same situation before 1st July 2013 and after) : it's a volontary behaviour of the border police after a local newspaper wrote (in 2011, I believe) that the most undesired tourists came from BiH with their frigoboxes and sandwiches to stay the afternoon on THEIR beaches hno:hno:
@ eulanthe: the crossing you write about is called Vitaljina(HR)/Kobila(MNE) and is worth the 5 kilometer to avoid the crazy bordercrossing on the magistrale !!


----------



## arctic_carlos

Eulanthe said:


> That shows how times have changed - when I used Metkovic last time in 2011, the control was incredibly laid back by Croatia. Ivanica is a great experience, I agree - did the BiH officer also take your passports into his hut to check


Yes, the officer did that! And a few kilometers after having entered BiH (but before having entered the Republika Srpska) there was another control, this time by police, checking again our documentation, but this time focusing more on the car papers. 

We were on our way to Mostar from Dubrovnik and the GPS showed Ivanica boder crossing as the faster option. Although the road is worse than through Neum and Metkovic, it saved us having to cross 3 borders in a few kilometers, and of course there was less traffic. We did the return trip through Metkovic and we spent more than 20 minutes queuing to cross the border.The Croatian officers even checked the car's engine (so we had to wait there for more than 10 minutes), but I think it was a random check, other vehicles did not have such a comprehensible check. In Ivanica we were all set in less than 5 minutes.


----------



## volodaaaa

arctic_carlos said:


> Yes, the officer did that! And a few kilometers after having entered BiH (but before having entered the Republika Srpska) there was another control, this time by police, checking again our documentation, but this time focusing more on the car papers.
> 
> We were on our way to Mostar from Dubrovnik and the GPS showed Ivanica boder crossing as the faster option. Although the road is worse than through Neum and Metkovic, it saved us having to cross 3 borders in a few kilometers, and of course there was less traffic. We did the return trip through Metkovic and we spent more than 20 minutes queuing to cross the border.The Croatian officers even checked the car's engine (so we had to wait there for more than 10 minutes), but I think it was a random check, other vehicles did not have such a comprehensible check. In Ivanica we were all set in less than 5 minutes.


Another issue is the nationality of car in front of you. Especially in Metkovic, I got Serbian truck in front of me. The border officers literally took it apart and I was waiting perhaps 20 minutes. The truck was the only car in queue.

The same at Greek-Macedonian Border on Greek exit. Macedonian car in front of me. The police took it apart, took the luggage out, and forced the passengers to get out of the car. When I got to the border-check, the policeman just took my passport, ask me "Slovenia?" and after my correction "No, Slovakia" he just smiled, did a not-bad-face, told "never mind" and wished me a pleasant journey. :lol:


----------



## Palance

arctic_carlos said:


> In contrast, we also used Ivanica and Metkovic border crossings during that trip and there was a huge difference, especially in Metkovic (entering Croatia), where the control was really exhaustive. Using Ivanica to enter BiH is a unique experience, the guard manually opened the barrier and we got BiH stamps in our passports (not in Neum).


I didn't get any stamp on the BiH-border, not in Metković (entering BiH) and not in Ivanica (leaving BiH). And in Neum nothing at all. The waiting time in Metković was about 20 minutes (that border crossing is a mess anyway beacause of trucks and busses trying to enter the long queues in the middle)

HR-> MNE via Debeli Brijeg: Got exit- and entrystamps. But when leaving MNE via Kobila, again no stamps on both sides. But Kobila took only 5 minutes.


----------



## Kanadzie

volodaaaa said:


> Another issue is the nationality of car in front of you. Especially in Metkovic, I got Serbian truck in front of me. The border officers literally took it apart and I was waiting perhaps 20 minutes. The truck was the only car in queue.
> 
> The same at Greek-Macedonian Border on Greek exit. Macedonian car in front of me. The police took it apart, took the luggage out, and forced the passengers to get out of the car. When I got to the border-check, the policeman just took my passport, ask me "Slovenia?" and after my correction "No, Slovakia" he just smiled, did a not-bad-face, told "never mind" and wished me a pleasant journey. :lol:


Hahaha, good thing you are not Slovene :lol:

I once had to pass USA check in an airport, the person in front of me had been to Pakistan, as soon as they mentioned that, it was over, 20 minutes waiting... the other lines cleared and the guards at the desks went home but I was still there :lol:


----------



## Sisimoto the HUN

del


----------



## Nikkodemo

*The famous Derby Line:*


A Map of the Border Between the USA and Canada as it Passes Through the Town of Derby Line, Vermont por amproehl, en Flickr


The Border between Derby Line, Vermont and Stanstead, Quebec por JFGryphon, en Flickr


Haskell Free Library and Opera House - Vermont / Quebec por Dougtone, en Flickr


Stanstead, QC / Derby Line, VT por frankkuin, en Flickr


Derby Line, VT por Nekonomist, en Flickr


----------



## alserrod

Why do they have a pedestrian crossing besides a border that cannot be crossed by car?


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^For the locals?

EDIT: I'm playing with GMaps. Kanadzie may appreciate the "rue Railroad" and "rue Passenger" on the Quebec side....


----------



## Proof Sheet

Nikkodemo said:


> *The famous Derby Line:*
> A Map of the Border Between the USA and Canada as it Passes Through the Town of Derby Line, Vermont por amproehl, en Flickr


On that map, I can see the Opera House/Library and the house that is split by the border on the west side of the road that crosses the border....but are there really other houses that the border goes through between the opera house and the border road.? Does anybody have photos of those?

I know that there is a house or two to the east that the border goes through and they front on roads that are now closed...but I wasn't aware of any others?


----------



## Verso

You better turn left here.


----------



## alserrod

Where was the case of crossing twice a border to go to school?
I think it wasn't far away from there, was it?


----------



## Verso

^^ I think it was somewhere on the Croatian-Serbian border.


----------



## El Tiburon

alserrod said:


> Where was the case of crossing twice a border to go to school?
> I think it wasn't far away from there, was it?


Point Roberts (Whatcom County, Washington State).


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Very good video!

What did the guard say regarding your camera? I crossed a lot of times the RO-HU border (and twice RO-SRB border) with the camera on and nobody said anything about it (big camera with a suction cup). Now I have a camera in the rear-view mirror that's barely noticeable. The quality is not so good, but I keep it mainly for safety (Russian style).

Regarding the french-speaking lady: I find it appropriate to speak in both English and French languages since it's a train between England and France. When I traveled with the Eurostar back in 2009 (as a normal train passenger) I remember that all announcements were made in both English and French.


----------



## piotr71

He said it's forbidden to capture pictures or record videos in *the* area and made sure my device was turned off. He actually did not define where exactly ban applies, so I assumed it must have covered only passport check booth's area. Anyway, no other person including Eurotunnel staff mind I was recording (I use pretty eye catching, however not very large but certainly visible Sony dslr) I have not noticed any signs applying ban for camera use either, therefore I felt free to filming there (apart from the mentioned spot) 

There is also an Englishman speaking, but his voice isn't that sexy, so I decided not to mention it


----------



## Kanadzie

It is amusing how the ticket machine is on right side, makes sense in England, but... all the continentals going back have to get out and walk to other side? Maybe in France they have opposite so everyone is inconvenienced equally :lol:


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Look again. The ticket machines are half on the right side, half on the left side. They are signed with those electronic pannels above.


----------



## piotr71

There is access from both sides to the ticket machine I used. Same as in France.


----------



## volodaaaa

Kanadzie said:


> It is amusing how the ticket machine is on right side, makes sense in England, but... all the continentals going back have to get out and walk to other side? Maybe in France they have opposite so everyone is inconvenienced equally :lol:


I've already drove through toll gates and border crossings where passenger beside me were supposed to pay/show passports. Can't imagine what would I do If I travelled by my own.


----------



## Festin

piotr71 said:


> In about 5:00 some good, female spoken French (for Penn's Woods maybe )


Have some question if it is possible:

1.Is it not smoother just to drive through the tunnel with the car?
2. Was it hard driving into the train and out ?
3. Does everyone stay in their cars all the time or does it exist seats in the upper class?


----------



## italystf

Singidunum said:


> Entering Russia from Belarus
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/rs5Kh
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/1Tmm6
> 
> Belarus from Russia
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/Uv4nl
> 
> abandoned post
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/xtm4L


Is it a real enclave or a map mistake?
https://maps.google.com/?ll=52.442618,31.609726&spn=0.225597,0.676346&t=m&z=11

So, the RUS-BY border is like a Schengen border now, right? But EU citizens still need two separate visas to visit those two countries, right?


----------



## Singidunum

Didn't even notice that. But it's real, it's Sankovo-Medvezhye, part of the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone, today completely depopulated.


----------



## alserrod

Would be easier to join that enclave to Russia indeed..... what's the reason of that enclave? (country is quite recent)


----------



## Singidunum

"In 1926, during the administrative reform, the state border between Byelorussian Soviet Republic and Russian Soviet Republic were moved to the east but administratively at farmer's will the villages Sankovo and Medvezhye became a part of Russia's Bryansk Oblast."


----------



## bogdymol

Festin said:


> 1.Is it not smoother just to drive through the tunnel with the car?


The tunnel is for railway traffic only.


----------



## nenea_hartia

Festin said:


> Have some question if it is possible:
> 
> 1.Is it not smoother just to drive through the tunnel with the car?
> 2. Was it hard driving into the train and out ?
> 3. Does everyone stay in their cars all the time or does it exist seats in the upper class?


1. Answered by _bogdymol_.
2. It is very easy to go in and out. An the train is very smooth. It was a surprise for me when I travelled few years ago, because I didn't felt when the train started to move.
3. No, many people went outside their cars.


The border control:










The trains on the left:


















Inside the shuttle:


----------



## x-type

what is usual behaviour in the train? first gear (or P) applied as far as i see. is it allowed to use hand brake? why they require windows (half) opened? is the ventilation inside the train good, or you can feel exhaust gases smelling?


----------



## volodaaaa

x-type said:


> what is usual behaviour in the train? first gear (or P) applied as far as i see. is it allowed to use hand brake? why they require windows (half) opened? is the ventilation inside the train good, or you can feel exhaust gases smelling?


I have noticed at least two types of carriages:
With lower ceiling and higher ceiling (for trucks). There are stairs visible in case of first ones. Where are they leading to? Is there a board with seats and perhaps canteen for passengers? If all passengers leave car, is driver supposed to leave tyhe windows halfway open?


----------



## italystf

Has a motorway tunnel under the English Channel ever been proposed?


----------



## nenea_hartia

volodaaaa said:


> Is there a board with seats and perhaps canteen for passengers?


As far as I could see, no, no canteen or any other facility. In fact, leaving the car in our case meant staying outside the car but near the car. There is not so much space between the cars and train's inside walls, so it is not so easy to walk.


x-type said:


> what is usual behaviour in the train? first gear (or P) applied as far as i see. is it allowed to use hand brake? why they require windows (half) opened? is the ventilation inside the train good, or you can feel exhaust gases smelling?


Yes, handbrake or P brake. Before and during the trip they are making announcements in both English and French, so maybe that's why you need to half-open the window, to be sure you can hear them.


----------



## stickedy

italystf said:


> Is it a real enclave or a map mistake?
> https://maps.google.com/?ll=52.442618,31.609726&spn=0.225597,0.676346&t=m&z=11
> 
> So, the RUS-BY border is like a Schengen border now, right? But EU citizens still need two separate visas to visit those two countries, right?


Speaking of this area, what the heck is that facility there: http://goo.gl/maps/E7FvE

It seems just to have an railway connection but look like barracks or something like that.


----------



## Singidunum

How long does the ferry take? What is the difference in price?


----------



## Alex_ZR

stickedy said:


> Speaking of this area, what the heck is that facility there: http://goo.gl/maps/E7FvE
> 
> It seems just to have an railway connection but look like barracks or something like that.


Obviously something military.


----------



## x-type

piotr71 said:


> 64 pouns (about 58 euros in both ways)


something went wrong with your conversion. it is more likely 75€


----------



## piotr71

I've already drunk two third bottle of Kadaraka when converting and probably calculated it as if pounds were euros.


----------



## Festin

bogdymol said:


> The tunnel is for railway traffic only.





nenea_hartia said:


> 1. Answered by _bogdymol_.
> 2. It is very easy to go in and out. An the train is very smooth. It was a surprise for me when I travelled few years ago, because I didn't felt when the train started to move.
> 3. No, many people went outside their cars.


Never knew it was only for railway traffic, kind of sad to hear actually. It feel more normal to have a tunnel where you can just drive through spontaneously without the need to worry about departure time. But guess they had good reason to build it like this.

Don't know if I would have felt it safe to leave windows open and leave the car out of site, but maybe there is high safety in the trains?


----------



## stickedy

Festin said:


> Never knew it was only for railway traffic, kind of sad to hear actually. It feel more normal to have a tunnel where you can just drive through spontaneously without the need to worry about departure time. But guess they had good reason to build it like this.


Yes, it's the length! That tunnel ist 50 km long! Imagine the time inside that tunnel if you drive and imagine the bad air in it as well... So, the railway solution is the far better one.



> Don't know if I would have felt it safe to leave windows open and leave the car out of site, but maybe there is high safety in the trains?


You don't really leave your car... Or better you don't need to leave your car.


----------



## los77

*Kaczyce Dolne [PL] - Karvina [CZ] -state border *​


----------



## los77

*Věřňovice[CZ] - Gorzyczki[PL] - state border​*


----------



## OulaL

Singidunum said:


> Is there a subscription for frequent travellers? How can there be people living in Malmo and working in Copenhagen with that price? They would have to spend around 1700€ just on bridge toll a month.


Copenhagen also has a good public transport system, also accessible from Malmö (the trains use the same bridge). Even cheaper.


----------



## MaXxImE




----------



## Festin

stickedy said:


> Yes, it's the length! That tunnel ist 50 km long! Imagine the time inside that tunnel if you drive and imagine the bad air in it as well... So, the railway solution is the far better one.
> 
> 
> You don't really leave your car... Or better you don't need to leave your car.


Ah, that explains it :lol: Yea, not fun to drive that distance


----------



## italystf

Russia - Kazekhstan border
https://maps.google.it/maps?q=sochi...4NBC5w-EJirvuzfxxeL_FA&cbp=12,270.66,,0,15.06

Wasn't there an agreement to abolish border controls between Russia and Kazakhstan?


----------



## Verso

^^ There are no customs, but there's still border control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customs_Union_of_Belarus,_Kazakhstan,_and_Russia#International_travel


----------



## Singidunum

How did this nonsense happen?


----------



## Nikkodemo

*El Paso, USA a few decades ago:*


----------



## crazyalex

New Zealand and Australia border crossings


----------



## volodaaaa

the best post ever


----------



## italystf

Singidunum said:


> How did this nonsense happen?


Baarle 2.0 

Is the road marked in yellow open?


----------



## Singidunum

Yes it seems so


----------



## Verso

That thin line is not a (narrow) corridor, that's actually a Croatian exclave in Slovenia (ignored by GMaps).

http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_Žumberačka


----------



## CNGL

Singidunum said:


> How did this nonsense happen?


Note that Croatia is North of Slovenia :troll:.


----------



## Verso

:lol:


----------



## Singidunum

Google Maps borders can't be redrawn that easily but if you type Brezovica Žumberačka for an example, you will see the actual border.

Why is the corridor drawn if it doesn't exist though?

Here is the official map http://preglednik.arkod.hr/ARKOD-We...46931588&map_y=5062102.1763893645&map_sc=7142


----------



## f.ostman

italystf said:


> Baarle 2.0
> 
> Is the road marked in yellow open?


Jan Krogh has an article on his Geosite:
http://geosite.jankrogh.com/brezovica.htm

Pictures taken by me, by the way.


----------



## Verso

Singidunum said:


> Why is the corridor drawn if it doesn't exist though?


It says in Wikipedia and in the article that f.ostman posted: the "border line" that connects the exclave with the rest of interstate boundary is a line plotted for only for identification purposes in a computer program that calculates the area of the closed polygon _(in this case the entire republic)_.



f.ostman said:


> http://geosite.jankrogh.com/brezovica.htm


^^


> Both countries border lines coincide in general (maybe the Slovenian map is presented a bit inaccurate), but one property (marked in red ellipse) does according to both the Croatian and Slovenian maps neither belong to Croatia or to Slovenia


It should declare independence. icard:


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> ^^It should declare independence. icard:


Like the Bir Tawil :lol:

Anyway, what sections of the SLO-HR border are still disputed? How do people live in this enclave? It's not (yet) Schengen so they had to cross an unmarked border every time they leave home.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Like the Bir Tawil :lol:


Yes, but at least Egypt and Sudan have a good reason why they don't want it.



italystf said:


> Anyway, what sections of the SLO-HR border are still disputed? How do people live in this enclave? It's not (yet) Schengen so they had to cross an unmarked border every time they leave home.


There's no control of the exclave's border, so you can cross it freely. Much of the border is still disputed, for example the tripoint with Hungary still isn't defined, neither where the land touches the sea, and the maritime border is also disputed (Slovenia wants contact with international waters).


----------



## Palance

Ask Joško Joras about disputes. Is he still living there at the border crossing SLO-HR? He lives just on Croatian territory, at the disputed border area at the westernmost border, but according to him it is still Slovenia


----------



## MaXxImE




----------



## Singidunum

f.ostman said:


> Jan Krogh has an article on his Geosite:
> http://geosite.jankrogh.com/brezovica.htm
> 
> Pictures taken by me, by the way.


Pretty cool site

If you need it for your website here is the Serbian orthophoto of the Sastavci enclave


----------



## alserrod

Recently we have had a border change. It was in the sea (territorial waters) between Peru and Chile. They had a dispute and Peru asked for a corner in the own border. They said they would assume international veredict and they finally did. It was fifty-fifty. They didn't give to Peru as many waters as they disputed but Ocean's border is changed and agreed.

What I do not know is the origin of the dispute.
Does anyone know more about it?


----------



## volodaaaa

Border line (de facto Iron Curtain) between Czechoslovakia and Austria.

1988









Now
http://goo.gl/maps/GFj1U

I spent my childhood nearby (my parents still live there). We moved in few months before the fall of communism but since I was at age of 3, I don't remember those barricades. 

Note the rock (or rather small mountain on right) called "The Rock" (Skala). During communism, some people managed to escape from CSSR by rogallo wing from there. My elementary school were on the opposite side and I still remember border guards in 1996 checking the rock after the dusk. 

Concrete columns of Iron curtain are still present along the road. You can see it here 

The former road for border guards is now employed as a cycloroute.


----------



## erxgli

*I get the feeling that borders have changed a bit* :lol::lol::lol:


*America 1794
*












*America today
*












*Europe 1748

*













*Europe today*


----------



## Nikkodemo

Interesting history of Germany and Italy.


----------



## alserrod

OK, I found it...










Chile requested to have a "sea border" paralel to the equator (departing on the land border)
Peru requested to have a "sea border" as a continuation of the land border.

Solution given if fifty-fifty for both and they agree. I do not know if it is effective right now because decission is quite recent.


----------



## Singidunum

Europe 1748 is wrong, it doesn't show Prince-Bishopric of Montenegro.


----------



## alserrod

From that point of view, all countries in the map are wrong. To my best knowledge, the only one-word-country in the world is Japan.

The rest of them... Republic of, kingdom of and so on....


Better back to borders.


----------



## Reivajar

If somebody wants to compare evolution of politican borders, try this: http://geacron.com/home-en/


----------



## Alex_ZR

alserrod said:


> To my best knowledge, the only one-word-country in the world is Japan.
> 
> The rest of them... Republic of, kingdom of and so on....
> 
> 
> Better back to borders.


Many countries in Europe are "one-word-countries": Romania, Montenegro, Hungary, Ukraine...they are all republics, but they don't have that word in official name.


----------



## alserrod

Alex_ZR said:


> Many countries in Europe are "one-word-countries": Romania, Montenegro, Hungary, Ukraine...they are all republics, but they don't have that word in official name.


Not exactly... I mean official name which is registered in UN.

For instance, "there is not any country called France". There is one called "French republic" or Republique française.

When some of my friends look their driving licence or passport and got surprised because it is written "Kingdom of Spain" (in Spanish) I remember them that it is the only official name.

Japan had the name of "empire of Japan" until the WWII and later just Japan. Other countries at least two words (and can be longer)


----------



## Penn's Woods

Not to open a can of worms here, but the English-speaking world, and not only it, generally treats the Americas as two continents. (And if Europe and Asia, which touch each other for thousands of miles, can be separate continents, why can't two large landmasses whose only connection is the isthmus of Panama be?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent#Number_of_continents


----------



## volodaaaa

alserrod said:


> Not exactly... I mean official name which is registered in UN.
> 
> For instance, "there is not any country called France". There is one called "French republic" or Republique française.
> 
> When some of my friends look their driving licence or passport and got surprised because it is written "Kingdom of Spain" (in Spanish) I remember them that it is the only official name.
> 
> Japan had the name of "empire of Japan" until the WWII and later just Japan. Other countries at least two words (and can be longer)


Hungary is just Hungary. Since 2011 it has been declared in constitution.



Penn's Woods said:


> Not to open a can of worms here, but the English-speaking world, and not only it, generally treats the Americas as two continents. (And if Europe and Asia, which touch each other for thousands of miles, can be separate continents, why can't two large landmasses whose only connection is the isthmus of Panama be?)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent#Number_of_continents


It obviously depends on particular attitude how we treat them. Regarding lithospheric plates Europe and Asia creates Eurasia and we have two Americas. Regarding culture we consider America as one single unit In my country. However It is always divided into two subunits : Northern America and Latin America according the official languages (portuguese and spanish is spoken there mostly [apart of dutch or french or english in Guyanas] and both are derived frtom latin language). Sometimes Latin America is broken down into central and south.

PeRsonally i am in favour with two Americas since the differences in many fields are indeed conspicuous


----------



## italystf

Quebec, French Guyana, Guadaloupe, Martinique, Saint Martin, Saint Pierre and Miquelon are linguistically part of Latin America too, even if the term Latin America is usually referred only to Spanish and Portoguese speaking countries. On the other hand, the English and Dutch speaking Caribbean islands should not be included in Latin America.


----------



## italystf

erxgli said:


> *Europe 1748
> 
> *


What's the purple enclave is S-E France?


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Sometimes, Canadians (at least in English) use "North America" as shorthand for "Canada and the U.S." To me, it's the continent, so it includes Mexico and Central America.

Of course, many Europeans use "Europe" to mean the E.U., thus leaving out indisputably European places like Switzerland and Norway. :troll:


----------



## Singidunum

alserrod said:


> Not exactly... I mean official name which is registered in UN.


Well yes but as he said there is no such thing as the Republic of Ukraine or Republic of Romania.

Single word country names

Barbados
Belize
Canada
Georgia
Grenada
Hungary
Ireland (Republic used as a description to distinguish but is not part of the official name)
Jamaica
Japan
Malaysia
Mongolia
Montenegro
Romania
Russia (name equal with Russian Federation)
Turkmenistan
Tuvalu
Ukraine

also country names that contain more words than one but no designation of the type of government

Antigua and Barbuda
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Burkina Faso
New Zealand
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Solomon Islands

and some are really creative

Nation of Brunei, Abode of Peace
Most Serene Republic of San Marino
Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela
Plurinational State of Bolivia


----------



## Penn's Woods

italystf said:


> What's the purple enclave is S-E France?


The Comtat Venaissin.


----------



## g.spinoza

Singidunum said:


> Well yes but as he said there is no such thing as the Republic of Ukraine or Republic of Romania.


Official name of Italy is "Repubblica Italiana" (Italian Republic). But I don't whine if someone calls it just Italy...


----------



## Singidunum

volodaaaa said:


> Hungary is just Hungary. Since 2011 it has been declared in constitution.


----------



## italystf

I read that Hungary was renamed in the new, controversial, costitution to show that the definition of Hungary is ethnically-based and can include also Hungarian population living in neighbouring countries and not limited to the territory of the "Hungarian Republic".
Unfortunately abroad it's difficult to get a clear idea about the new Hungarian regime, since mass media are politicized. Most mass media in EU countries are pro-EU, so orban is depicted as dictatorial, fascist, racist, but if you read "alternative sources" you hear that Hungarian economy did better with Orban than with the previous governments and wants the freedom of his country from the European power.


----------



## volodaaaa

italystf said:


> I read that Hungary was renamed in the new, controversial, costitution to show that the definition of Hungary is ethnically-based and can include also Hungarian population living in neighbouring countries and not limited to the territory of the "Hungarian Republic".
> Unfortunately abroad it's difficult to get a clear idea about the new Hungarian regime, since mass media are politicized. Most mass media in EU countries are pro-EU, so orban is depicted as dictatorial, fascist, racist, but if you read "alternative sources" you hear that Hungarian economy did better with Orban than with the previous governments and wants the freedom of his country from the European power.



Hungarian minority is very good political topic in Romania, Serbia and Slovakia as well as in Hungary itself. Renaming Hungary was, at least I guess, part of it. I remember times when everything was politicized and media creates situation of almost war. Now there is age of peace and I hope it will remain for a long time.

For me, Orban is not that bad as media describes him, but I definitely would not vote him if I could. He is just little bit more populist and sometimes I think he uses fairly not democratic tools to ensure his popularity. The second question is about hungarian opposition. Does it even exist? Has anything to offer?


----------



## Alex_ZR

Bosnia and Herzegovina is also just "Bosnia and Herzegovina". "Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina" was term used by Bosnian Muslims since 1992 and this was abandoned after Dayton agreement in 1995.


----------



## Singidunum

orszag means country, so Magyarorszag means Hungarian state. Whether this waters down the territorial element of a country and somehow changes the meaning of the country into an entity of peoples wherever they are, I don't know, but I doubt it, I think even if that was an intention, it's purely symbolic under the current world order and within the EU that has strict rules. There are other countries with such a name State of Israel, State of Eritrea, State of Kuwait, State of Libya, State of Palestine, State of Qatar. And pretty much all countries in this area have special laws for cooperation with their ethnic group in neighbouring states.



Alex_ZR said:


> Bosnia and Herzegovina is also just "Bosnia and Herzegovina". "Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina" was term used by Bosnian Muslims since 1992 and this was abandoned after Dayton agreement in 1995.


Yes I listed it in the 2nd group. It was also the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Yugoslavia, and People's Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina before that. The same goes for Montenegro.

Speaking of Montenegro, in Serbian it's called Crna Gora, so two words, but in English just one.


----------



## nbcee

italystf said:


> I read that Hungary was renamed in the new, controversial, costitution to show that the definition of Hungary is ethnically-based and can include also Hungarian population living in neighbouring countries and not limited to the territory of the "Hungarian Republic".
> Unfortunately abroad it's difficult to get a clear idea about the new Hungarian regime, since mass media are politicized. Most mass media in EU countries are pro-EU, so orban is depicted as dictatorial, fascist, racist, but if you read "alternative sources" you hear that Hungarian economy did better with Orban than with the previous governments and wants the freedom of his country from the European power.


Well I don't want to go deep into the political BS and I mean both our domestic issues and how the West looks at us. (Okay, just two things: If Orbán is sooo racist then why do 56% of the Roma population want to vote for Fidesz? On the other hand the economy still needs some investors badly.)

You can read the full text of the new constitution here in English (please look at the third part of the preamble or Article XXIX):
http://www.kormany.hu/download/2/ab/30000/Alap_angol.pdf


volodaaaa said:


> Hungarian minority is very good political topic in Romania, Serbia and Slovakia as well as in Hungary itself. Renaming Hungary was, at least I guess, part of it. I remember times when everything was politicized and media creates situation of almost war. Now there is age of peace and I hope it will remain for a long time.
> 
> For me, Orban is not that bad as media describes him, but I definitely would not vote him if I could. He is just little bit more populist and sometimes I think he uses fairly not democratic tools to ensure his popularity. The second question is about hungarian opposition. Does it even exist? Has anything to offer?


Again I don't want to go into too much detail now. It takes two to tango and sadly there were and are some politicians on both sides of the border who wanted to gain popularity by stirring up these differences. But as you said it, the situation is getting better now and it's definitely a good thing.

About your second question... well... the most they can offer is that they are not Fidesz.


----------



## volodaaaa

nbcee said:


> the situation is getting better now and it's definitely a good thing.


I have never had something against Hungarian minority and had always good experiences. So I've got always peace in my mind towards them. But wait until some elections take place and we will see whether politicians on both sides grew up or not :lol:


----------



## erxgli

*The Americas are sometimes divided in north america and latin america, but this is wrong because you cant mix geography with culture. People get confused sometimes, the correct is North America-South America and Anglo America-Latin America.*


*North America*













*South America
*












*Anglo America
*












*Latin America
*
*Spanish, french, portuguese...
*


----------



## OulaL

Geographically speaking, Greenland is also a part of North America. 

Iceland, on the other hand, was born of the lava that erupted in the process of North America and Europe tearing apart of each other (which process is still underway) - so geographically speaking, it isn't a part of either any more than the another


----------



## Sisimoto the HUN

italystf said:


> I read that Hungary was renamed in the new, controversial, costitution to show that the definition of Hungary is ethnically-based and can include also Hungarian population living in neighbouring countries and not limited to the territory of the "Hungarian Republic".
> Unfortunately abroad it's difficult to get a clear idea about the new Hungarian regime, since mass media are politicized. Most mass media in EU countries are pro-EU, so orban is depicted as dictatorial, fascist, racist, but if you read "alternative sources" you hear that Hungarian economy did better with Orban than with the previous governments and wants the freedom of his country from the European power.


Off topic.
We Hungarians know this ancient latin saying: Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi.
Today we would say, double standard policy..We have learned the lesson.
Back On.


----------



## volodaaaa

erxgli said:


> *The Americas are sometimes divided in north america and latin america, but this is wrong because you cant mix geography with culture. People get confused sometimes, the correct is North America-South America and Anglo America-Latin America.*


This is basically right. But it may sounds ridiculous and confusing to common people if I state "I am going to Anglo-America" speaking of (British) Guyana


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Is language the only defining thing of culture, though? Cutting Quebec out of Anglo-America looks ridiculous on a map to me even though it's French-speaking. Especially given that you've got very Anglo things there like Elizabeth II on the money.


----------



## nbcee

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Is language the only defining thing of culture, though? Cutting Quebec out of Anglo-America looks ridiculous on a map to me even though it's French-speaking. Especially given that you've got very Anglo things there like Elizabeth II on the money.


Yes, and in the meantime it's not in the fourth map either while the other French-speaking areas are. :nuts:


----------



## volodaaaa

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Is language the only defining thing of culture, though? Cutting Quebec out of Anglo-America looks ridiculous on a map to me even though it's French-speaking. Especially given that you've got very Anglo things there like Elizabeth II on the money.


No, I think it should not be taken that strictly. I suppose all Guyanas (incl. Suriname) belongs rather to Latin America than Anglo-America. 

I perceive the word "Latin" in "Latin America" as somehting that determines the nature of culture, not only the development of language. I think Guyana is closer to Brazilian culture than British. Namely, I am sure that inhabitants of Guyana better dance samba than tell boring British jokes :lol:


----------



## popcalent

alserrod said:


> From that point of view, all countries in the map are wrong. To my best knowledge, the only one-word-country in the world is Japan.
> 
> The rest of them... Republic of, kingdom of and so on....
> 
> 
> Better back to borders.


Japan in Japanese is 日本 and the official name of Japan in Japanese is 日本国 (country of Japan).

Canada and Ireland are well known examples of countries without a long official name. It is common to say Republic of Ireland to describe the State or to distinguish it from Northern Ireland but the official name of Ireland is just Ireland or Éire in Irish.

It is worth to mention that there are countries without a short name: the Dominican Republic (not Dominica which is a different country) and the Czech Republic (Czechia has been suggested but it's neither official nor used).


----------



## OulaL

popcalent said:


> It is worth to mention that there are countries without a short name: the Dominican Republic (not Dominica which is a different country) and the Czech Republic (Czechia has been suggested but it's neither official nor used).


True. In Czech language there is a name, Čechy; however, despite being the root of the country name, it refers to the area known in English as Bohemia. A major part of Czech republic, but not the whole of it.

Another interesting thing is the comparison of the Netherlands and the Kingdom of the Netherlands; the latter being an union, which also includes some territory in the Caribbean.


----------



## Verso

popcalent said:


> It is worth to mention that there are countries without a short name: the Dominican Republic (not Dominica which is a different country) and the Czech Republic (Czechia has been suggested but it's neither official nor used).





OulaL said:


> True. In Czech language there is a name, Čechy; however, despite being the root of the country name, it refers to the area known in English as Bohemia. A major part of Czech republic, but not the whole of it.


They say Česko.


As for "Czechia": if you talk and especially write about the country a lot, you'll probably start using it, because "the Czech Republic" is kind of long. Also:


> Following the dissolution of Czechoslovakia at the end of 1992, the Czech part of the former nation found itself without a common single-word name in English. In 1993, the Czech Ministry of Foreign Affairs suggested the name *Czechia* /ˈtʃɛkiə/ (_Česko_ Czech pronunciation: [ˈtʃɛsko] in Czech) *as an official alternative* in all situations other than formal official documents and the full names of government institutions; however, this has not become widespread in English.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic#Etymology


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It is "Tsjechië" in Dutch. The Č is phonetically turned into "tsj". "ia" usually becomes "ië" in Dutch, though not universally. Virginia, Georgia and Pennsylvania retain their names in Dutch, but California becomes Californië, it is the only state which changes its name in Dutch, though technically it could also be Noord Dakota, Nieuw York and Zuid Carolina but this is never used.


----------



## g.spinoza

There's a famous sports commentator in Italy who often uses "Cechia". But I only heard this word from him, everyone else uses "Repubblica Ceca".


----------



## x-type

interesting thing about the name of the Netherlands is obligatory using of article _the_  I think it is the one of the kind.

btw I've heard more time from Italians using Cechia


----------



## volodaaaa

OulaL said:


> True. In Czech language there is a name, Čechy; however, despite being the root of the country name, it refers to the area known in English as Bohemia. A major part of Czech republic, but not the whole of it.
> 
> Another interesting thing is the comparison of the Netherlands and the Kingdom of the Netherlands; the latter being an union, which also includes some territory in the Caribbean.


Well Czech republic consists of Moravia (Morava), Bohemia (Čechy) and Silesia (Sliezsko). If you refer to any municipality in Moravia as Čechy, people could get offended. It is similar like calling someone from Vojvodina Kosovian.


----------



## x-type

volodaaaa said:


> Well Czech republic consists of Moravia (Morava), Bohemia (Čechy) and Silesia (Sliezsko). If you refer to any municipality in Moravia as Čechy, people could get offended. It is similar like calling someone from Vojvodina Kosovian.


it's more like saying to the people from *the *Netherlands that they are from Holland


----------



## ChrisZwolle

x-type said:


> interesting thing about the name of the Netherlands is obligatory using of article _the_  I think it is the one of the kind.


Obama is president of the United States  

The Bahamas, the Gambia, the Philippines, the United Arab Emirates and the United Kingdom are also pretty common.

In Dutch, the Netherlands is actually singular; Nederland, not Nederlanden, so today the correct translation would be Netherland, or just call it Nederland like they do in Texas and Colorado


----------



## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> interesting thing about the name of the Netherlands is obligatory using of article _the_  I think it is the one of the kind.
> 
> btw I've heard more time from Italians using Cechia


Maybe they're following the commentator... 

To my ears Cechia is cacophonous.


----------



## Laurentzius

g.spinoza said:


> There's a famous sports commentator in Italy who often uses "Cechia". But I only heard this word from him, everyone else uses "Repubblica Ceca".


Really? In Romanian everybody says "Cehia". Officially it's called "Republica Cehă", but I guess it's too long for people to use it in everyday life. The only country that I can think of right now that people call by its official name is the Republic of Moldova. People call it "Republica Moldova" to differentiate it from the Romanian Moldova, the western half of the historical Principality of Moldova that remained part of Romania.


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> Obama is president of the United States
> 
> The Bahamas, the Gambia, the Philippines, the United Arab Emirates and the United Kingdom are also pretty common.
> 
> In Dutch, the Netherlands is actually singular; Nederland, not Nederlanden, so today the correct translation would be Netherland, or just call it Nederland like they do in Texas and Colorado


i actually thought about one-word countries. i forgot the Bahamas and the Phillipines, but the Gambia is even more interesting


----------



## volodaaaa

x-type said:


> it's more like saying to the people from *the *Netherlands that they are from Holland


A pretty amusing situation happened at PhD defending of one of my colleague. Here in Slovakia, we called the country Holandsko (which is obviously derived from Holland) whereas Czech call it Nizozemsko (which is derived from Netherlands or rather it Dutch translation. 

Unfortunately, he got two opponents from Czech republic and they were quite negatively surprised why was he talking about Holland and had not included the entire Netherlands :lol:

By the way, I can't imagine what is the adjective "Dutch" derived from? Why we don't use "Netherlandsish" :lol: okay... maybe it is better as it has been up to now :lol:


----------



## Verso

x-type said:


> interesting thing about the name of the Netherlands is obligatory using of article _the_


It's not true. You use it only in a sentence, but otherwise it's just Netherlands (yes, the Dutch thread's title is wrong). The only countries with "the" in their names are The Bahamas and The Gambia.


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> It's not true. You use it only in a sentence, but otherwise it's just Netherlands. OTOH, it's The Bahamas and The Gambia.


ok, but you will never say in the Germany, but you will say in the Netherlands


----------



## Verso

x-type said:


> ok, but you will never say in the Germany, but you will say in the Netherlands


Yes, but it isn't obligatory, as you said (it actually shouldn't be in the name itself at all).


----------



## volodaaaa

Well, the native speakers should join our "Balkan English talks" and clarify it . Articles are nightmare to me, but I think, you can use the "the" in case it refers to a general noun and the individual name of country represents only the subject. 

_The Slovakia_ is wrong, but I think the usage of _The republic of Slovakia_ may be all right since the "the" is linked to a general noun "republic" not Slovakia.


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> Yes, but it isn't obligatory, as you said (it actually shouldn't be in the name itself at all).


khm, i wouldn't be so sure. try to google it a bit. i also remember that our english teacher in elementary school talked something about it.
also, i have taken a look at dictionary. it is not the newst, but anyway...


----------



## CNGL

Weren't the Netherlands the Minecraft hell? :troll:


popcalent said:


> It is worth to mention that there are countries without a short name: the Dominican Republic (not Dominica which is a different country) and the Czech Republic (Czechia has been suggested but it's neither official nor used).


How about the Republic of the Congo and the Democratic Republic of the Congo? Just "Congo" would lead to confusion, that is why sometimes I want to think about the former Zaire as the Belgian Congo...


ChrisZwolle said:


> It is "Tsjechië" in Dutch. The Č is phonetically turned into "tsj". "ia" usually becomes "ië" in Dutch, though not universally. Virginia, Georgia and Pennsylvania retain their names in Dutch, but California becomes Californië, it is the only state which changes its name in Dutch, though technically it could also be Noord Dakota, Nieuw York and Zuid Carolina but this is never used.


AFAIK the other Georgia doesn't retain that name in Dutch, so you have advantage as the state and the country don't have the same name...

Anyway, this is really off-topic. I believe is time to go back.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Verso said:


> They say Česko.
> 
> 
> As for "Czechia": if you talk and especially write about the country a lot, you'll probably start using it, because "the Czech Republic" is kind of long. Also:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic#Etymology


The "this has not become widespread in English," I would suggest to non-English-speakers, is the most important part of that quote. [curmudgeon mode off]

Now, it occurred to me recently that I don't know if "British Isles" has an equivalent in other languages. I don't think I've heard "îles Britanniques" in French. So, how do various continental languages say it?


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> It is "Tsjechië" in Dutch. The Č is phonetically turned into "tsj". "ia" usually becomes "ië" in Dutch, though not universally. Virginia, Georgia and Pennsylvania retain their names in Dutch, but California becomes Californië, it is the only state which changes its name in Dutch, though technically it could also be Noord Dakota, Nieuw York and Zuid Carolina but this is never used.


You should call New York "Nieuw Nederland." It would make perfect sense. [DISCLAIMER: That's not a serious, you're-misusing-your-language, suggestion that would be totally out of line on my part.]


----------



## ChrisZwolle

"Britse eilanden" is quite common in Dutch. Many people use the name "England" when they refer to the UK though.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Verso said:


> It's not true. You use it only in a sentence, but otherwise it's just Netherlands (yes, the Dutch thread's title is wrong). The only countries with "the" in their names are The Bahamas and The Gambia.


Huh?


----------



## Penn's Woods

volodaaaa said:


> Well, the native speakers should join our "Balkan English talks" and clarify it .


Happy to oblige. :cheers:

But it is snowing, yet again.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> "Britse eilanden" is quite common in Dutch. Many people use the name "England" when they refer to the UK though.


Not Eng*e*land?

Was looking at an item in Le Figaro Magazine yesterday, on the travel page, about luxury trains between London and Edinburgh, which talked about the opportunity to see some of the high points of "Angleterre." I'm not sure if they were talking about places you could see en route, or misusing England to include Scotland. Perhaps - troll mode on - they're trying to anger the Scots into seceding from the UK - troll mode off.


----------



## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> Maybe they're following the commentator...
> 
> To my ears Cechia is cacophonous.




so it happens in Spanish but both words are used.


----------



## OulaL

Penn's Woods said:


> Now, it occurred to me recently that I don't know if "British Isles" has an equivalent in other languages. I don't think I've heard "îles Britanniques" in French. So, how do various continental languages say it?


In Finnish it's Britteinsaaret. It's used in weather reports and things like that.

UK is officially "Yhdistynyt kuningaskunta" or "Ison-Britannian ja Pohjois-Irlannin yhdistynyt kuningaskunta". It cannot be shortened as YK because that means UN. More commonly used name, including newspapers, is "Iso-Britannia" or simply "Britannia".


----------



## parcdesprinces

Penn's Woods said:


> Now, it occurred to me recently that I don't know if "British Isles" has an equivalent in other languages. I don't think I've heard "îles Britanniques" in French. So, how do various continental languages say it?


We say Îles Britanniques as well in French.


----------



## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> Now, it occurred to me recently that I don't know if "British Isles" has an equivalent in other languages. I don't think I've heard "îles Britanniques" in French. So, how do various continental languages say it?


In Italian there is no distinction between isle and island. So it's just "Isole Britanniche", considering Great Britain and Ireland (plus the minor ones).


----------



## cinxxx

What is the actual status on Kosovo crossings with Serbia?

If for example you entered Kosovo from Albania, end want to exit to Serbia? I know there were problems if doing so, and you wouldn't be let inside Serbia (no problems if you entered Serbia first and have a valid entrance). Would you have to show a passport to Serbian control (and so get you Kosovo stamp annulled) or an ID would also suffice?


----------



## Penn's Woods

parcdesprinces said:


> We say Îles Britanniques as well in French.


Bon. So it's just that I've never heard it.


----------



## Verso

volodaaaa said:


> _The Slovakia_ is wrong, but I think the usage of _The republic of Slovakia_ may be all right since the "the" is linked to a general noun "republic" not Slovakia.


It's actually Slovak Republic, not Republic of Slovakia. Again, you use it only in a sentence. The official long name of Slovakia isn't "The Slovak Republic", but "Slovak Republic". On the other hand, it's "The Kingdom of _the_ Netherlands".



CNGL said:


> How about the Republic of the Congo and the Democratic Republic of the Congo? Just "Congo" would lead to confusion, that is why sometimes I want to think about the former Zaire as the Belgian Congo...


When Zaire still existed the Republic of the Congo was known simply as "Congo". I suppose it's still entitled to use this short name, but hardly anyone still uses it, especially since it's much smaller than DRC. On contrary, many people call DRC "Congo".



Penn's Woods said:


> Now, it occurred to me recently that I don't know if "British Isles" has an equivalent in other languages. I don't think I've heard "îles Britanniques" in French. So, how do various continental languages say it?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles (there are plenty of languages on the left)



Penn's Woods said:


> Huh?





x-type said:


> khm, i wouldn't be so sure. try to google it a bit. i also remember that our english teacher in elementary school talked something about it.
> also, i have taken a look at dictionary. it is not the newst, but anyway...


My Slovenian-English dictionary says the same, but I wouldn't trust them too much in this case.


> In English, the Bahamas is one of only two countries whose official name begins with the word "the", along with The Gambia.[10]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bahamas#Etymology_of_name


----------



## Kanadzie

Penn's Woods said:


> Bon. So it's just that I've never heard it.


French people usually try to avoid talking about England entirely or just call them rosbifs :lol:

I think the normal reference to Congo is by capital city, usually these days "Congo-Brazzaville" or "Congo-Kinshasa", at least when I have heard in English or French in places where it was needed to be clear...

In Canada in english we often say "_the _Ukraine" but some Ukranian-descent people get annoyed by the "the" and insist on only "Ukraine".

I have tendency to just call Czech "C Z", it sounds pretty cool...


----------



## Nikkodemo

We are known as Mexico, but the official name is United Mexican States.

:dunno:


----------



## an-148

Kanadzie said:


> French people usually try to avoid talking about England entirely or just call them rosbifs :lol:
> 
> I think the normal reference to Congo is by capital city, usually these days "Congo-Brazzaville" or "Congo-Kinshasa", at least when I have heard in English or French in places where it was needed to be clear...
> 
> In Canada in english we often say "_the _Ukraine" but some Ukranian-descent people get annoyed by the "the" and insist on only "Ukraine".
> 
> I have tendency to just call Czech "C Z", it sounds pretty cool...


as we are diverging from official names and go to the spoken language:

- for the joke: it's exact that french speaking people use to speak about the british as the "rosbifs"  , but they have the reply ready and spek about "froggies" when speaking about frenchies .
- more seriously: both Congo's have always (at least as long as I live) been called Congo and Congo-Brazza: more was not necessary to distinguish them (even in times of Zaïre)


----------



## Suburbanist

volodaaaa said:


> Gorizia Mauer





Verso said:


> Görzer Mauer. :cheers:


How well guarded by the Yugoslavian army was Nova Gorica? Was the area forbidden for other Yugoslavian citizens not living there, like border areas of DDR and Hungary were?


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> How well guarded by the Yugoslavian army was Nova Gorica? Was the area forbidden for other Yugoslavian citizens not living there, like border areas of DDR and Hungary were?


No, you could touch the border from both sides, the situation was more relaxed in Yugoslavia than in Warsaw Pact countries. However there was border police patrolling the border and arresting people who crossed it. One who knew my father was detained for a week in Koper back in the 70s for walking few meters into Yugoslavia by mistake (there were no fences in the forest).
Despite all terrible episodes during Italian fascism (forced italianization of Slovenes and Croats living in Italian territory), WWII (Italian invasion of Yugoslavia with mass murders and deportations, together with Nazi Germany) and communist repression after WWII (occupation of Trieste, foibe, Istrian exodus, Goli Otok), relationship between Italy and Yugoslavia were quite normal since the 1960s and it was possible to cross the border without visa. Until the fall of communism Italian media used to hide crimes committed by Yugoslavs against Italian in 1943-48 to avoid "diplomatic problems" and I think it was outrageous.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Verso said:


> It's actually Slovak Republic, not Republic of Slovakia. Again, you use it only in a sentence. The official long name of Slovakia isn't "The Slovak Republic", but "Slovak Republic". On the other hand, it's "The Kingdom of _the_ Netherlands".
> 
> When Zaire still existed the Republic of the Congo was known simply as "Congo". I suppose it's still entitled to use this short name, but hardly anyone still uses it, especially since it's much smaller than DRC. On contrary, many people call DRC "Congo".
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles (there are plenty of languages on the left)
> 
> My Slovenian-English dictionary says the same, but I wouldn't trust them too much in this case.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bahamas#Etymology_of_name


I can remember pre-Zaire references to "Congo (Leopoldville)" and "Congo (Brazzaville)." Now - warning, brilliant idea coming - why don't we just call them East and West Congo? Worked for the Germanies, Works for the Koreas....


----------



## Penn's Woods

Kanadzie said:


> French people usually try to avoid talking about England entirely or just call them rosbifs :lol:
> 
> I think the normal reference to Congo is by capital city, usually these days "Congo-Brazzaville" or "Congo-Kinshasa", at least when I have heard in English or French in places where it was needed to be clear...
> 
> In Canada in english we often say "_the _Ukraine" but some Ukranian-descent people get annoyed by the "the" and insist on only "Ukraine".
> 
> I have tendency to just call Czech "C Z", it sounds pretty cool...


The "like" is for the rosbifs. Which somehow reminds me of a recent Top Gear sequence I'll have to look for.

I've just mentioned referring to the Congos by their capitals, but people don't seem to do that these days. At least not that I've heard (given that I was unaware of non-English uses of "British Isles," this may indicate I need to get out more.)

"The Ukraine" was normal until the Soviet Union broke up. "Ukraine" without "the" started then, supposedly Ukrainians (actual Ukrainians and specifically their government, as opposed to Ukrainian-Americans and Ukrainian-Canadians) thought the usage without "the" was more appropriate for an independent country. (Just like Burma at one point asked everyone to start saying "Myanmar." I still say Burma. But I'm sure official usage in the U.S. - in the State Department, in the media - is "Myanmar.") I hear Ukraine more often without the "the" these days, at least in the media, but it still sounds a little strange to me.

EDIT: Here's that Top Gear video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzo1ua9scjA


----------



## g.spinoza

Italian press uses Congo-Brazzaville extensively.


----------



## 88keys

Hassle free border crossing. Not the case anymore 



88keys said:


> South Africa - Swaziland Border on 20th August,1972
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source Ron Fischer​


----------



## Verso

Penn's Woods said:


> "The Ukraine" was normal until the Soviet Union broke up. "Ukraine" without "the" started then, supposedly Ukrainians (actual Ukrainians and specifically their government, as opposed to Ukrainian-Americans and Ukrainian-Canadians) thought the usage without "the" was more appropriate for an independent country. (Just like Burma at one point asked everyone to start saying "Myanmar." I still say Burma. But I'm sure official usage in the U.S. - in the State Department, in the media - is "Myanmar.") I hear Ukraine more often without the "the" these days, at least in the media, but it still sounds a little strange to me.


"The Ukraine" sounds strange to me, because I didn't speak English in times of the USSR and probably didn't know about (the) Ukraine or the USSR anyway. :lol: As for Burma/Myanmar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma#Etymology.



Suburbanist said:


> How well guarded by the Yugoslavian army was Nova Gorica? Was the area forbidden for other Yugoslavian citizens not living there, like border areas of DDR and Hungary were?


You mean, if I was allowed to go to Nova Gorica? Yes, I was.


----------



## Eulanthe

The Ukraine is wrong, because it was used in previous times to refer to a vague area inhabited by Ukrainians. I seem to recall that it also has implications of still being under Russian rule, too. But as Ukraine is a clearly defined independent state these days, the country is clearly just Ukraine and not The Ukraine. 

Speaking of Nova Gorica - does anyone know if Slovenian is spoken by Italians?


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> The Ukraine is wrong, because it was used in previous times to refer to a vague area inhabited by Ukrainians. I seem to recall that it also has implications of still being under Russian rule, too. But as Ukraine is a clearly defined independent state these days, the country is clearly just Ukraine and not The Ukraine.


But the same holds for the Bahamas or the Gambia.



Eulanthe said:


> Speaking of Nova Gorica - does anyone know if Slovenian is spoken by Italians?


Which Italians? There're almost no Italians living in Nova Gorica.


----------



## Kanadzie

Penn's Woods said:


> The "like" is for the rosbifs. Which somehow reminds me of a recent Top Gear sequence I'll have to look for.
> 
> I've just mentioned referring to the Congos by their capitals, but people don't seem to do that these days. At least not that I've heard (given that I was unaware of non-English uses of "British Isles," this may indicate I need to get out more.)
> 
> "The Ukraine" was normal until the Soviet Union broke up. "Ukraine" without "the" started then, supposedly Ukrainians (actual Ukrainians and specifically their government, as opposed to Ukrainian-Americans and Ukrainian-Canadians) thought the usage without "the" was more appropriate for an independent country. (Just like Burma at one point asked everyone to start saying "Myanmar." I still say Burma. But I'm sure official usage in the U.S. - in the State Department, in the media - is "Myanmar.") I hear Ukraine more often without the "the" these days, at least in the media, but it still sounds a little strange to me.
> 
> EDIT: Here's that Top Gear video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzo1ua9scjA


Actually I think official use by the US State Department is "Burma", just to piss off those generals, something which I wholeheartedly support :lol: 

You're right about Congo though - thinking about it now I hear "Republic of Congo" (bad one) and the "Democratic Republic of Congo / DRC" (even worse one)



an-148 said:


> - more seriously: both Congo's have always (at least as long as I live) been called Congo and Congo-Brazza: more was not necessary to distinguish them (even in times of Zaïre)


But, only "Congo" for Belgian Congo, might have been only used commonly en Belgique?


----------



## an-148

yes, maybe


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> Which Italians? There're almost no Italians living in Nova Gorica.


I wrote that when half asleep - I meant Gorizia 

I'm trying to think of a place bordering a Slavic country where the locals (speaking a non-Slavic language) understand the Slavic language spoken on the other side. Any ideas?


----------



## g.spinoza

AFAIK very few Italian-speaking Gorizians also speak Slovene.


----------



## Palance

Eulanthe said:


> I'm trying to think of a place bordering a Slavic country where the locals (speaking a non-Slavic language) understand the Slavic language spoken on the other side. Any ideas?


Mohács in Hungary perhaps? I remember (though a long time ago) seeing there many advertisements in Croatian for people from Croatia coming there for shopping. I suppose they should understand some Croatian. 

And Kosovo? I think that many people, especially older ones, can speak or understand Serbian.


----------



## x-type

Palance said:


> Mohács in Hungary perhaps? I remember (though a long time ago) seeing there many advertisements in Croatian for people from Croatia coming there for shopping. I suppose they should understand some Croatian.


exactly. actually, i don't know for Mohács (although I know 2 persons from Mohács speaking very good croatian), but people in southern Zala and southern Somogy counties spoke croatian for commercial reasons (the shopping, which you have mentioned). i don't know if they can still speak it, or it was only when we were extensively going to shopping to Hungary


----------



## OulaL

Eulanthe said:


> I'm trying to think of a place bordering a Slavic country where the locals (speaking a non-Slavic language) understand the Slavic language spoken on the other side. Any ideas?


I guess a lot of people in the non-Slavic parts of the former Soviet Union - especially those over the age of 30 - speak Russian.


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> AFAIK very few Italian-speaking Gorizians also speak Slovene.


Only ethnic Slovenes probably.



x-type said:


> exactly. actually, i don't know for Mohács (although I know 2 persons from Mohács speaking very good croatian), but people in southern Zala and southern *Somogy* counties spoke croatian for commercial reasons (the shopping, which you have mentioned). i don't know if they can still speak it, or it was only when we were extensively going to shopping to Hungary


Maybe you met Somogy Slovenes.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> AFAIK very few Italian-speaking Gorizians also speak Slovene.


It's absolutely true, on the other hand, many Slovenes living near the Italian border learned some basic Italian.
Around 60-90k residents in Friuli-Venezia Giulia are Italo-Slovenian bilingual and there are even Slovenian-language schools in border areas. However they're native speakers, not Italians who learned the language later.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovene_minority_in_Italy

Percentage of Slovenian speakers in Friuli-Venezia Giulia border area:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...enian_minority_in_Italy_by_municipalities.png
(pic too large to be embedded)

I never had problems to communicate in Italians with attendants in shops, restaurants and gas stations in places like Nova Gorica, Sezana,... On the other hand, the average, native Italian, Gorizia resident, living 1km from the border, probably doesn't know more than "gostlina", "dobrodosli", "ulica", "avtocesta" and, unfortunately, since 2008, "vinjeta" 

(I guess that also not many people from Tarvisio do speak German and not many people from Arndolstein do speak Italian. And don't many Ventimiglia residents are fluent in French and don't many Menton residents are fluent in Italian.)


----------



## Penn's Woods

Verso said:


> But the same holds for the Bahamas or the Gambia.
> 
> Which Italians? There're almost no Italians living in Nova Gorica.


"The Bahamas" are islands. You need a "the." I guess "the Gambia" is called that because it's named after a river. Just like "the Bronx," in New York City, is short for "Borough of the Bronx [River]."

Non-native speakers of English - even national governments - don't get to say what's "wrong" in English: they have absolutely no authority. (Seriously: if Germany demanded that English-speakers start saying "Deutschland," or France demanded we stop pronouncing the S in "Paris," would we do it? Of course not. Language doesn't work that way. So why should it be different for Burma or the Ukraine?)


----------



## Penn's Woods

Kanadzie said:


> Actually I think official use by the US State Department is "Burma", just to piss off those generals, something which I wholeheartedly support :lol:
> 
> You're right about Congo though - thinking about it now I hear "Republic of Congo" (bad one) and the "Democratic Republic of Congo / DRC" (even worse one)
> 
> 
> 
> But, only "Congo" for Belgian Congo, might have been only used commonly en Belgique?


We used to call one of them "Congo" and the other "the Congo," but damned if I can remember which was which.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Penn's Woods said:


> So why should it be different for Burma or the Ukraine?)


The Ukraine is simply not the name of the country, just like Zaire is not used anymore for DR Congo, or Siam for Thailand. Names _can_ change  Stubbornly keeping it calling "The" Ukraine will simply be seen as another act of ignorance.


----------



## Kanadzie

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Ukraine is simply not the name of the country, just like Zaire is not used anymore for DR Congo, or Siam for Thailand. Names _can_ change  Stubbornly keeping it calling "The" Ukraine will simply be seen as another act of ignorance.


But at the same time, we always say "the Netherlands" to say NL. Is it because of the plural (which is awkward), or have the Dutch simply not complained about it because the use of "Holland" to refer to entire NL more annoying and so all attention is given to that? :lol:

As for Zaire, first was Congo, then Zaire then Congo again. Maybe we should not bother to change as we will become right again anyhow 



Penn's Woods said:


> "The Bahamas" are islands. You need a "the." I guess "the Gambia" is called that because it's named after a river. Just like "the Bronx," in New York City, is short for "Borough of the Bronx [River]."
> 
> Non-native speakers of English - even national governments - don't get to say what's "wrong" in English: they have absolutely no authority. (Seriously: if Germany demanded that English-speakers start saying "Deutschland," or France demanded we stop pronouncing the S in "Paris," would we do it? Of course not. Language doesn't work that way. So why should it be different for Burma or the Ukraine?)


At least in English. Some other languages have some kind of government body decreeing what is "correct" all the time, like the French, or the time the German one deemed the eszett illegal (they will pry my eszett from my cold dead hands! )


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Ukraine is simply not the name of the country, just like Zaire is not used anymore for DR Congo, or Siam for Thailand. Names _can_ change  Stubbornly keeping it calling "The" Ukraine will simply be seen as another act of ignorance.


Of course they can change. They change through the usage of educated native speakers, over time. Not by legislation and not instantaneously.

(I didn't say, I don't think, a couple of pages back, that I actually *say* "the Ukraine," just that it sounds weird without the "the." If I actually had to use it in writing for work, I'd leave the "the" out. But that's not going to come up all that often, if ever. A century from now, there will presumably be no English-speakers left to whom it sounds odd without the "the.")

Wiki led me to this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18233844

Your tolerance of the off-topic is appreciated, by the way. (Speaking only for myself....)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Penn's Woods said:


> (I didn't say, I don't think, a couple of pages back, that I actually *say* "the Ukraine," just that it sounds weird without the "the."


It's a matter of habituation I suppose. The Russia or The Germany sounds weird.

Here's an interesting read about "The" Ukraine:
http://www.businessinsider.com/why-ukraine-isnt-the-ukraine-and-why-that-matters-now-2013-12


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Germany sounds weird.


The Frigging Republic of Germany sounds good :cheers:.


----------



## alserrod

Btw, there is another thread about regional borders for signs and that stuff but it hasn't much activity...


----------



## Palance

But nevertheless, the pics are from an international border, despite the presence of a sign that shows a name of something local. So they really are ontopic. 

Like this one:


----------



## Eulanthe

an-148 said:


> that is only a welcoming unofficial panel to show in which of both entities you arrive: it's never located at the border itself (the pic of the border control is the one at the bridge with the national panel) : it's always located further inland (here close to the entrance of the truck parking)


That seems to be on entry to BiH, because you can clearly see the Carina 200m sign.

Does the Federation even have signs?


----------



## los77

Road to the border crossing :

*Grzechotki [PL] - Mamonovo II [RUS]​*
Expressway S7 - 0.00 - 0.54 min.
Expressway S22 - from 0.55 min.


----------



## Alien x

Eulanthe said:


> That seems to be on entry to BiH, because you can clearly see the Carina 200m sign.
> 
> Does the Federation even have signs?


No.


----------



## Nikkodemo

Playing volleyball in Tijuana: 



JeDarkett said:


>


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I dare you to spike


----------



## OulaL

Estonia and Russia have signed a border treaty ending the border dispute between the two countries.

The so called "Saatse boot" will be ceded to Estonia in exchange of other land area of equal size (totalling less than 2 km^2), thus ending the peculiar arrangement with Estonian (Schengen) road crossing Russian (non-Schengen) territory.

More info in Estonian http://uudised.err.ee/v/eesti/7d0ea4f9-8d6c-462c-b4f0-b59c32284940


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## CNGL

Forget man-made border crossings. This is a true border crossing


----------



## AmoreUrbs

g.spinoza said:


> In case anyone's interested, in Italian "Ucraina" never had the article, but after the fall of communism it changed the pronounciation stress: before it was Ucràina, now it's Ucraìna.


And I cringe when I hear "Ucràina".. the "newer" pronunciation is more respectful of the Ukrainian pronunciation


----------



## Palance

Repeating this:


Verso said:


> Enough with languages, please.


----------



## xrtn2

*Finally Brazil and France border* 


In portuguese:



Amapaense said:


> *ANTT vai habilitar a obra aduaneira para inaugurar a ponte binacional*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A ponte binacional localizada na fronteira entre o município amapaense de Oiapoque e a cidade de Saint-Georges, na Guiana Francesa, está apta para inauguração.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Representantes da Agência Nacional de Transportes Terrestres (ANTT), Secretaria de Estado dos Transportes (Setrap), Polícia Rodoviária Federal (PRF), Departamento Nacional de Infraestrutura de Transportes (Dnit) e da Prefeitura de Oiapoque estiveram reunidos nesta terça-feira, 18, no setor aduaneiro da ponte, para acompanhar a fiscalização dos representantes da ANTT, que estavam no local fazendo levantamento das condições de trabalho para os órgãos de fiscalização.Instalações da alfândega na ponte binacional entre o município de Oiapoque e a cidade de Saint-Georges, na Guiana Francesa, aptas para inauguração
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Já foram construídos os escritórios provisórios, enquanto os definitivos estão em obras. Para os representantes da Agência, Marco Antônio Neves, coordenador internacional de Transportes de Cargas, e Edson Schimidt, coordenador internacional de Fiscalização, com o que está sendo feito na parte aduaneira a ponte já está apta para inauguração.
> 
> "Mesmo com a parte definitiva ainda não concluída, a provisória dá para atender aos serviços da ANTT, Polícia Federal, Receita Federal e os demais órgãos de fiscalização", ressaltou Marco Antônio.
> 
> O superintendente do Dnit/AP, Fábio Virinho, afirmou que a previsão da conclusão da obra definitiva está marcada para novembro deste ano, mas a empresa responsável vem fazendo de tudo para concluir em um menor espaço de tempo possível.
> 
> O secretário dos Transportes, Bruno Mineiro, ficou muito contente com os resultados e garantiu que o governador Camilo Capiberibe deu todo o apoio necessário para que a Setrap realizasse a obra de pavimentação asfáltica do acesso e do pátio da ponte binacional. O próximo passo será a apresentação do relatório para aprovação pela ANTT.
> 
> Também estiveram presentes na reunião de trabalho o superintendente regional da PRF, Aldo Balieiro, a diretora-presidente da Agência de Fomento do Amapá, Ivana Antunes; o comandante do 34º BIS, coronel Alexandre; diretores da Setrap e o prefeito de Oiapoque, Miguel Caetano, que destacou a importância da inauguração da ponte ao desenvolvimento econômico da região e a geração de emprego e renda para a população de Oiapoque, além de alavancar o turismo entre os dois países.
> 
> http://www.agenciaamapa.com.br/noticia/37481/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Whitetail border crossing between Montana, USA and Saskatchewan, Canada. It connects Montana Route 511 and Saskatchewan Highway 34.

The average AADT is 5 vehicles per day.










Saskatchewan has 6 border crossings with the United States west of Highway 6. Between 5 and 50 vehicles per day use one of these border crossings.


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## nestvaran

Alex_ZR said:


> Border crossing Sremska Rača (SRB)-Rača (BIH)


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> The average AADT is 5 vehicles per day.


That means less vehicles have crossed it in all its history than many roads in 1 day. Supposedly it closed down in 2011.


----------



## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Whitetail border crossing between Montana, USA and Saskatchewan, Canada. It connects Montana Route 511 and Saskatchewan Highway 34.
> 
> The average AADT is 5 vehicles per day.





Is there passport control there?


----------



## Kanadzie

Absolutely, you must show passport at control, when entering one country or other (no exit check). They will not stamp passport if passport is Canadian or US, but they will scan it... Before about 2004-2005 did not need any identification, but had to stop and make declaration of goods and citizenship (example: "what is your citizenship" "Canadian" "OK, go")


----------



## Nikkodemo

*The airport of Tijuana:*



must645 said:


> *AEROPUERTO INTERNACIONAL DE TIJUANA​*
> Esta es la maqueta del complejo entero que se exhibe en las salas del aeropuerto Abelardo L. Rodriguez, incluyendo la terminal en USA y el puente Binacional de lado Mexicano. (YA ESTA EN CONSTRUCCION)
> 
> 
> Sin título por AnakesSSC, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Sin título por AnakesSSC, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Sin título por AnakesSSC, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Sin título por AnakesSSC, en Flickr
> 
> El render de la terminal en suelo americano


*It will be the second binational airport in the world after Basel-Mulhouse.*


----------



## Zagor666

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Whitetail border crossing between Montana, USA and Saskatchewan, Canada. It connects Montana Route 511 and Saskatchewan Highway 34.
> 
> The average AADT is 5 vehicles per day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saskatchewan has 6 border crossings with the United States west of Highway 6. Between 5 and 50 vehicles per day use one of these border crossings.


5 vehicles per day,i want a job on there :cheers:


----------



## Eulanthe

That border crossing at Raca/Sremska Raca posted above - is it a joint SRB/BiH border crossing?


----------



## alserrod

gbrads1980 said:


> This is not true. In the cordoba agreement, amongst other thing Gibraltar promised to grant Spain dual use of the new airport, which would be built alongside the frontier. For their part Spain would build a terminal on the Spanish side which would join into it. Unfortunately Spain reneged on this agreement, just as it had renaged on every other agreement concerning Gibraltar.
> 
> Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk





Do you mean about this terminal which started operating on November 2011?










And its scheme












An Iberia airplane (or British airways, as you will know it is the same company) operated a Madrid-Gibraltar for a year or so. 
Not enough passengers and HSL to Malaga (which made a reduction time to Antequera, La Linea, Algeciras and so) with its concurrence made this fligth to dissapear. Furthermore, it is a pity but that airport had many flights than now.

It is not operating due to no flights but you can consider the terminal as binational.


----------



## gbrads1980

alserrod said:


> An Iberia airplane (or British airways, as you will know it is the same company) operated a Madrid-Gibraltar for a year or so.
> Not enough passengers and HSL to Malaga (which made a reduction time to Antequera, La Linea, Algeciras and so) with its concurrence made this fligth to dissapear. Furthermore, it is a pity but that airport had many flights than now.
> 
> It is not operating due to no flights but you can consider the terminal as binational.


Yes. I live in Gibraltar so I use that airport terminal fairly regularly. Spain was supposed to build an annexe, you would be able to land in Gibraltar and exit via the annexe, where the guardia civil would check your passport etc.

The plans didn't materialise, I think mainly because because the alcalde of la linear refused to sell the land to madrid. Now with the Pp in power in Spain and the current political climate it is unlikely to ever be built.

You are correct in that Iberia tried to run flights to Madrid, and air andalus also tried flight to Madrid and Barcelona, but they didn't work. There's not much appetite to go to Spain these days. Not with two hour queues to walk across, let alone drive across.

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk


----------



## italystf

Ristorante al Confine (Border Restaurant) between Italy and San Marino.
https://maps.google.it/maps?q=mappa...d=3ntsXsAqJU0rhHK_Mi1Bnw&cbp=12,51.5,,0,-1.63


----------



## alserrod

WTF! White house in the left belongs to Italy, San Marino or to a black hole?

Are they tax differences over the border?


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> WTF! White house in the left belongs to Italy, San Marino or to a black hole?
> 
> Are they tax differences over the border?


Yes, every country has its own taxation system. In San Marino they pay less taxes and there's no VAT.
There are many small roads, sometimes even unmarked, crossing that border.


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Ceuta, Spain seen from Gibraltar, UK and La Línea de la Concepción.*


----------



## volodaaaa

Nikkodemo said:


> *Ceuta, Spain seen from Gibraltar, UK and La Línea de la Concepción.*


Great composition, indeed....:cheers:


----------



## Eulanthe

The infrastructure on the Gibraltar/Spanish border really is quite shocking. Neither side has anywhere near enough capacity for the amount of traffic that crosses daily, and the EU completely failed to bang their heads together when they had the chance. 

There really should be a modern joint border station built in this wasteland here - http://goo.gl/maps/8XIXv . The current arrangements are nowhere near satisfactory enough - both Spain and Gibraltar do a terrible job of actually checking the identity of travellers. Spain in particular needs to start doing a proper job with conducting Schengen checks.

Of course, the most sensible solution would be for Gibraltar to join Schengen. There are already border controls between the UK and Gibraltar - so there's no reason whatsoever for Gibraltar to remain outside the Schengen area.

Incidentally, why on earth couldn't Spain and Gibraltar come to an agreement to at least have an exit to La Linea from the airport? I understand that building the Spainsh annexe might have been problematic - but would it really have been so difficult to come to an agreement to have someone from the Guardia Civil based next to an exit door? It would only take a small container...


----------



## bogdymol

This map can fit in this thread...



Venividi said:


>


----------



## alserrod

It is quite odd and out of date.

Andorra was absolutely feudal until several decades ago. They approved their Constitution to have a legal system approached to all European countries. It is true they had their own laws until then and had to manage with banking systems, customs, trade, shopping and so on... with the best interpretation of a feudal law they could do. But after constitution I do not find anything special in that country (apart of their tax situation and in 30 km you have crossed the whole country)


----------



## bogdymol

This guy makes some very interesting videos.


----------



## keokiracer

bogdymol said:


> This guy makes some very interesting videos.


And even that is an understatement! 
CGP Grey makes awesome videos, along with Vsauce and a lot more


----------



## gbrads1980

The problem with the border isn't the infrastructure, it is the attitude of the Spanish pp government. Since August last year there have been stringent border controls, at the worst it has taken seven hours to cross the road frontier, and up to two hours to walk across. There have also been two hour queues to walk across. Despite what the Spanish say it is politically motivate. The guardia civil deliberately go slow. They will stop your car, make you open the boot and then disappear for five minutes, come back and tell you to go. It's all rather sad because la Linea badly needs the income but no one from Gibraltar will cross into Spain to spend money any more.

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk


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## gbrads1980

As an example here is what the queue to walk out was like yesterday








This is a modern european border. It is a disgrace. You can see the queue for cars in the distance.


----------



## Eulanthe

gbrads1980 said:


> The problem with the border isn't the infrastructure, it is the attitude of the Spanish pp government. Since August last year there have been stringent border controls, at the worst it has taken seven hours to cross the road frontier, and up to two hours to walk across. There have also been two hour queues to walk across. Despite what the Spanish say it is politically motivate. The guardia civil deliberately go slow. They will stop your car, make you open the boot and then disappear for five minutes, come back and tell you to go. It's all rather sad because la Linea badly needs the income but no one from Gibraltar will cross into Spain to spend money any more.


The infrastructure isn't fit for purpose there. Gibraltar barely bothers to check who is entering/leaving because they don't have the facilities to do it, and the Spanish controls are clearly not in any way suited to the mission. 

A modern checkpoint would make sense there. There's so much land available in La Linea that it could easily be built, and it should be big enough so that both the Spanish and Gibraltarian authorities can conduct proper checks at the border. The current situation just doesn't work - look at the queues of traffic in La Linea trying to enter Gibraltar, and you can see that the facility just isn't suitable. 

Then when they ramp up the pressure for whatever reason, the whole border area is overwhelmed. I don't object to systematic passport checks, nor do I object to Spain carrying out proper fiscal controls - but it should be done properly in a proper environment.

Do you know if the queues for pedestrians were caused by the Spanish simply checking everyone properly? Gibraltar has always seemed to want Spain to have very relaxed controls on the border - but don't forget, it *is* an external Schengen border and a Customs border for fiscal purposes.


----------



## Nikkodemo

Talking about videos, this is an excellent resume:


----------



## alserrod

12 minutes quite interesting.

A sum up about topics we have been talking here


----------



## g.spinoza

Does anybody know where the guy speaking in the video's accent is from? Is quite amusing, and difficult to follow...


----------



## gbrads1980

Eulanthe said:


> The infrastructure isn't fit for purpose there. Gibraltar barely bothers to check who is entering/leaving because they don't have the facilities to do it, and the Spanish controls are clearly not in any way suited to the mission.
> 
> A modern checkpoint would make sense there. There's so much land available in La Linea that it could easily be built, and it should be big enough so that both the Spanish and Gibraltarian authorities can conduct proper checks at the border. The current situation just doesn't work - look at the queues of traffic in La Linea trying to enter Gibraltar, and you can see that the facility just isn't suitable.
> 
> Then when they ramp up the pressure for whatever reason, the whole border area is overwhelmed. I don't object to systematic passport checks, nor do I object to Spain carrying out proper fiscal controls - but it should be done properly in a proper environment.
> 
> Do you know if the queues for pedestrians were caused by the Spanish simply checking everyone properly? Gibraltar has always seemed to want Spain to have very relaxed controls on the border - but don't forget, it *is* an external Schengen border and a Customs border for fiscal purposes.


Right on all counts. There are two issues at hand here, the first is the wider issues of the sovereignty of Gibraltar. Gibraltartarians would believe that it should rightfully rest with the UK, and the Spanish contributors to the group would believe it should be Spanish. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it's not one thats appropriate to discuss in this thread.

However the spanish government (do not confuse the Spanish Government with the Spanish People) do confuse this issue.

Firstly Gibraltar. For their part they need to be performing exit checks on goods and people. (The UK does not exit check either). In fact they have been told to by the EU and if you read the Gibraltar Chronicle you will see that there has been a planning application submitted to give four inbound green channels and outbound lanes for exit checks.

The Spanish have periods though where they will extensively check everything. We are talking rummaging around in ladies handbags and peoples pockets very slowly and deliberatley. Searching every single person and car very meticilously in an effort to cause queues. Searching cars in the green channel without pulling them to the side. They have triple filters. I.e three seperate Guardia Civil checkpoints all searching every car individually. Then as if by magic the queues disappear. Its very frustrating when your car is stopped and they dont even search it, just jold you for five minutes and then let you go. then the car behind you takes it's turn. Or standing for hours in a pedestrian queue in the rain and wind with children, elderly and disabled people. Its inhuman. And what's the excuse for the inbound queues when they do the same there. There isnt a great deal being smuggled out of Spain into Gibraltar

Lets not forget that although Schengan and the customs union does apply, the EU right to free movement of EU citizens does appy. 

Finally a joined up properly operated border would be great. In the current political climate it will never happen.


----------



## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> Does anybody know where the guy speaking in the video's accent is from? Is quite amusing, and difficult to follow...


yeah, extremely weird. Lesotho [lesutu] :?


----------



## Mirror's Edge

*Border control in Lappland- Sweden, this is one of the coldest border crossings in EU, those valleys always come in as the coldest places in Sweden every year.*


----------



## Verso

x-type said:


> yeah, extremely weird. Lesotho [lesutu] :?


It's correct. Anyway, I hardly understand what he's saying.


----------



## Eulanthe

gbrads1980 said:


> Right on all counts. There are two issues at hand here, the first is the wider issues of the sovereignty of Gibraltar. Gibraltartarians would believe that it should rightfully rest with the UK, and the Spanish contributors to the group would believe it should be Spanish. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it's not one thats appropriate to discuss in this thread.


Absolutely, I don't think this thread is a place to talk about that issue. 



> Firstly Gibraltar. For their part they need to be performing exit checks on goods and people. (The UK does not exit check either). In fact they have been told to by the EU and if you read the Gibraltar Chronicle you will see that there has been a planning application submitted to give four inbound green channels and outbound lanes for exit checks.


I saw that, but it didn't seem to explain too well exactly how it was going to look on the exit to Gibraltar. The good news is that it seems that the commercial gate will be used for pedestrians too. But as I understand it, it's not quite 4 lanes on entry - rather it will be the existing 2 green+1 red, plus two 'side' lanes that will be used for both entry and exit checks. 

The infrastructure is just so badly lacking in the inbound direction - I don't recall the Gibraltar authorities ever even asking me a question, let alone actually looking at my passport. I used my Polish ID card once to see if there was any difference in attitude - nope, still waved through. 



> The Spanish have periods though where they will extensively check everything. We are talking rummaging around in ladies handbags and peoples pockets very slowly and deliberatley. Searching every single person and car very meticilously in an effort to cause queues. Searching cars in the green channel without pulling them to the side. They have triple filters. I.e three seperate Guardia Civil checkpoints all searching every car individually.


And this is exactly what I mean by the border area not being fit for purpose. Poland has shown that you can build so-called 'one-stop' checkpoints with considerable capacity - for example - http://supernowosci24.pl/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/SOL_3260_470x313.jpg

If Spain wants to control the border properly, then they should build a checkpoint where people and goods can be controlled properly. This was what annoyed me most about the EU visit - they completely failed to recognise that EU law wasn't being applied properly at all.

Even another example - Spain should have an "EU" and "All Passports" line - but they make absolutely no attempt to even conduct proper immigration control there. Gibraltar not bothering is understandable - but Spain as a Schengen member should at least be doing the so-called 'minimum check' upon entry and exit. From a technical point of view, they really are doing an absolutely terrible job of controlling the border. 

If they want to conduct in-depth controls, then there should be something like 8-10 lanes available - not the existing 1/2. 



> Then as if by magic the queues disappear. Its very frustrating when your car is stopped and they dont even search it, just jold you for five minutes and then let you go. then the car behind you takes it's turn. Or standing for hours in a pedestrian queue in the rain and wind with children, elderly and disabled people. Its inhuman. And what's the excuse for the inbound queues when they do the same there. There isnt a great deal being smuggled out of Spain into Gibraltar


Well, they should be conducting proper exit checks too. It's an EU border, so there's no need to check the car documentation - but again, they should be at least conducting a proper check upon exit. I suspect the real reason that they don't introduce permanent exit controls is because they know that the infrastructure in La Linea will be swamped - and they (for whatever reason) won't expand the border area. 

As for the pedestrian exit queues - unfortunately, if EU law was to be applied properly, this would probably be normal. 



> Lets not forget that although Schengan and the customs union does apply, the EU right to free movement of EU citizens does appy.


It does, which is why the Spanish government should have been hammered for not having an adequate control area. With the amount of foot traffic through the border, they should have around 8-10 passport control booths. 



> Finally a joined up properly operated border would be great. In the current political climate it will never happen.


I cannot for the life of me understand why the EU visit didn't make it crystal clear to both sides that they needed to do something about the mess of the infrastructure at the border.


----------



## Penn's Woods

g.spinoza said:


> Does anybody know where the guy speaking in the video's accent is from? Is quite amusing, and difficult to follow...


Sounds Irish to me.


----------



## keokiracer

Penn's Woods said:


> Sounds Irish to me.


In another video he mentions that he is from Scotland.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^I always have trouble with those two.


----------



## keokiracer

Yeah, you're not the only one with that problem...


----------



## piotr71

*[GB][F] Dover-Dunkerque, DFDS.*

You probably do not remember when I said that, do you?:



> If it comes to difference in crossing times there is one significant advantage of Eurotunnel - no storms. Rough sea may prolong you trip for hours. And by the way, I've never experienced ferry crossing lasting less than 1 hrs 30 not counting loading and unloading (altogether about 2 hrs 15 mins in most advantageous circumstances) Tunnel is much more reliable and usually arrives on time.


And this is what I had experienced two weeks after that statement


----------



## Reivajar

^^ Is it always such a nightmare to take the ferry? :lol:


----------



## alserrod

I've taken twice and no problem. Last time I arrived Dover and looked for the first available ferry. It was about 45 minutes later. There was one before full with another company. No delays and arriving on time.


----------



## piotr71

*[B][D] Lichtenbusch*


----------



## AllyMac

keokiracer said:


> Yeah, you're not the only one with that problem...


It's no problem to me, but then again I'm Scottish :nuts:

But I can state 100% the lad is from Scotland, most likely northen Scotland going by his accent.


----------



## Kemo

piotr71 said:


> And this is what I had experienced two weeks after that statement


7:34 - instructions in English, French and *Polish*? I wouldn't expect that.


----------



## eindhoven the best

Border in Maastricht (NL) at the Sint-Pietersberg +171m with Belgium.


----------



## keokiracer

Kemo said:


> 7:34 - instructions in English, French and *Polish*? I wouldn't expect that.


Probably for the crapload of truck drivers there.


----------



## bogdymol

eindhoven the best said:


> Border in Maastricht (NL) at the Sint-Pietersberg +171m with Belgium.


Dutch get altitude sickness at this point


----------



## piotr71

Kemo said:


> 7:34 - instructions in English, French and *Polish*? I wouldn't expect that.


Poles are main customers for DFDS Dover-Calais/Dunkerque, probably because of its well calculated prices


----------



## ChrisZwolle

bogdymol said:


> Dutch get altitude sickness at this point


Nah, most people think it's halfway to the moon :lol:


----------



## bogdymol

Border crossing between Italy and Slovenia, on A4 / A3 motorways, near Fernetti (map).


----------



## Skyline_

AllyMac said:


> It's no problem to me, but then again I'm Scottish :nuts:
> 
> But I can state 100% the lad is from Scotland, most likely northen Scotland going by his accent.



I 've been to Inverness....... and Loch Ness too! :banana::cheers:


----------



## Verso

Kanadzie said:


> Exactly, *we* sucked all the best and brightest people out of Europe :banana:


You mean _they_ (Canadians) sucked _you_ out of Europe? :lol:


----------



## Kanadzie

^^

Sure, now we're dark side :lol:


----------



## volodaaaa

italystf said:


> No, it's completely different. East Germans built the wall to keep their own citizen within the hell\prison that was the DDR, while Americans built the wall to prevent illegal immigration from Mexico.
> I wish that the EU would take the immigration issue as seriously as the USA do (allowing only people with job and house, other than political and war refugees).


False. The Berlin wall was built to keep the bad bad capitalists out of prospective Eastern Germany so as the Iron Curtain was built to keep them out of prospering East Bloc. Now I can still imagine the huge number of possible refugees to cross the borders from underdeveloped West. :nuts:


----------



## volodaaaa

International border crossing *Slovakia - Ukraine*:

Ubľa - Malyj Bereznyj




































Vyšné Nemecké - Uzghorod



























Pedestrian crossing Mali Selmenci - Veľké Slemence


----------



## bogdymol

Today I crossed the border between Romania & Hungary at Vărșand / Gyula (map). Usually at the RO-HU border crossing they just look 5 seconds on your ID cards and you can leave. This time it was different.

Entering Hungary: the Romanian border police officer looked on the IDs and asked the view the car's trunk. Then he passed the IDs to the Hungarian border police officer, who entered with them in his booth and stayed inside for 3-4 minutes (don't know what he was doing because door and window were closed and you can't see inside (mirror-type glass). I guess he was searching me and my passengers in their database to see if we're not wanted for something. After 3-4 minutes he just gave me the IDs and we could go.

Entering Romania: gave the IDs to the Hungarian officer who also asked to see the trunk. The Romanian officer asked us where we were coming from while checking the IDs. I left after 1 minute.


----------



## Vertigo

What are the devices besides the roadways in the 4th picture? (Between the yellow/black poles) They can be seen at more border crossings. I suppose they are scanners of some kind, but what do they scan for?


----------



## Eulanthe

Vertigo said:


> What are the devices besides the roadways in the 4th picture? (Between the yellow/black poles) They can be seen at more border crossings. I suppose they are scanners of some kind, but what do they scan for?


Radiation detectors, if I'm not mistaken. I think Croatia has quite a few of them on the Bosnian/Montenegrin/Serbian borders.

I know both Slovakia and Germany have portable radiation detectors too - the Germans have one that seems to permanently live at the Frankfurter Tor rest area (that in reality seems to be exclusively used by Russians buying stuff). I think, if I'm not mistaken, the Slovakians also have one that lives at the old Bratislava-Berg border crossing.


----------



## John Maynard

italystf said:


> Only the immigration of educated people, who work and are willing to integrate. This kind of immigrants are welcome there. In a world where the economy is shrinking, the unemployment is growing, I don't see how an uncontrolled mass immigration of people without money, job, house,... can improve economy.
> It's not a matter of racism, it's a matter of numbers. If Italian population will grow from 60 to 100 million in few years, its resources won't increase proportionally and there will be less wealth, especially if those 40 extra million people don't bring wealth but take it away from others.


It's funny you've mentioned that, just like the same argument applied in Switzerland during the mass immigration campaign, mostly against EU migrants :nuts:. Especially, in Ticino (Italian speaking part for those not familiar) which voted massively (nearly 70%) in favor of restrictions during the last referendum. Seems that Ticinese have lots of problems with Italians "frontalieri", according to them generally: under-payed, they are taking jobs off the locals, welfare abuses, criminality increasing, money going out of CH, causing huge traffic jams and pollution, and not wishing, by any mean, to "integrate" into Swiss society, moreover, they grew of 50% in just 5 years and, are even more massively growing due to Italian economical shrinking and huge unemployment, etc. This is how the cat becomes a mouse again :lol:.

A link you may find interesting: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Ticino_says_basta!_to_cross-border_workers.html?cid=37943558









Italians "frontalieri" creating traffic jams on the border in Chiasso.









SVP Ticino party "propaganda" poster in 2010.
Today they are more than 60'000 "frontalieri" in Ticino.


----------



## italystf

John Maynard said:


> It's funny you've mentioned that, just like the same argument applied in Switzerland during the mass immigration campaign, mostly against EU migrants :nuts:. Especially, in Ticino (Italian speaking part for those not familiar) which voted massively (nearly 70%) in favor of restrictions during the last referendum. Seems that Ticinese have lots of problems with Italians "frontalieri", according to them generally: under-payed, they are taking jobs off the locals, welfare abuses, criminality increasing, money going out of CH, causing huge traffic jams and pollution, and not wishing, by any mean, to "integrate" into Swiss society, moreover, they grew of 50% in just 5 years and, are even more massively growing due to Italian economical shrinking and huge unemployment, etc. This is how the cat becomes a mouse again :lol:.
> 
> A link you may find interesting: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Ticino_says_basta!_to_cross-border_workers.html?cid=37943558
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Italians "frontalieri" creating traffic jams on the border in Chiasso.
> 
> SVP Ticino party "propaganda" poster in 2010.
> Today they are more than 60'000 "frontalieri" in Ticino.


I'm fully aware of this.

As I wrote before, it's not a racial\nationalistic issue (Swiss vs Italians, West Europeans vs East Europeans, Europeans vs Africans,...) but a numeric one. Imagine 500,000 people moving from Rome to Milan in a short time. They would surely create problems because Milan has not a sufficient job market, housing, services, infrastructures for so many people.

The example of Europeans colonizating North America is very different. North America was a wild and sparsely populated land so more immigrants = more developement. Immigrants arriving in America to start a new life founded new cities from scratch, plowed virgin lands, discovered mines and built factories, creating job opportunities for many other people (they destroyed native cultures and the environment, but that's another story). They didn't came to the America to ask being hired by someone else or to life off social benefits.


----------



## John Maynard

italystf said:


> I'm fully aware of this.
> 
> As I wrote before, it's not a racial\nationalistic issue (Swiss vs Italians, West Europeans vs East Europeans, Europeans vs Africans,...) but a numeric one. Imagine 500,000 people moving from Rome to Milan in a short time. They would surely create problems because Milan has not a sufficient job market, housing, services, infrastructures for so many people.


We are now totally out of topic :banana:!

I didn't want to be rude, but if you consider ex-Eastern Bloc (in fact, now Central) European countries, you'll see an outrageous massive emigration and a clear concentration of its people into 5 or 6 Western European countries. 
Are you saying that all the Schengen idea should be abandoned?


----------



## italystf

John Maynard said:


> Are you saying that all the Schengen idea should be abandoned?


No, of course. Differences between poorer (East) and richer (West) European countries decreased a lot in the last 20 years and will continue to decrease. Without Schengen life in many border areas would be a nightmare, with long waiting lines just to get on the other side of the town and many local crossings closed forcing people to make long detours to main border crossings. Freight shipping would also became more expensive and time-consuming, with trains or trucks that must stop at 3-4 borders in 1000km.


----------



## Kanadzie

italystf said:


> I'm fully aware of this.
> 
> As I wrote before, it's not a racial\nationalistic issue (Swiss vs Italians, West Europeans vs East Europeans, Europeans vs Africans,...) but a numeric one. Imagine 500,000 people moving from Rome to Milan in a short time. They would surely create problems because Milan has not a sufficient job market, housing, services, infrastructures for so many people.


This is no problem because of free market. If no jobs, people don't come, if too many people are there and not enough jobs, jobs get created, not enough housing, they will build them and there are the new jobs. It is same as the Europe to America thing, there was nothing in US, there were no jobs, no housing, no services and no infrastructure. They had space, but Italy (or any normal EU country) has plenty space too.

"Benefit tourism" is something else, but really, why have those benefits? It is okay to subsidize your own lazy people but not lazy from elsewhere, might as well tell them all to go get a job :lol: And anyway, I am not sure if the kind of lazy people that get benefits, have enough ingenuity and drive to immigrate...


----------



## insulting-dutchman

Eulanthe said:


> The infrastructure on the Gibraltar/Spanish border really is quite shocking. Neither side has anywhere near enough capacity for the amount of traffic that crosses daily, and the EU completely failed to bang their heads together when they had the chance.
> 
> There really should be a modern joint border station built in this wasteland here - http://goo.gl/maps/8XIXv . The current arrangements are nowhere near satisfactory enough - both Spain and Gibraltar do a terrible job of actually checking the identity of travellers. Spain in particular needs to start doing a proper job with conducting Schengen checks.
> 
> Of course, the most sensible solution would be for Gibraltar to join Schengen. There are already border controls between the UK and Gibraltar - so there's no reason whatsoever for Gibraltar to remain outside the Schengen area.
> 
> Incidentally, why on earth couldn't Spain and Gibraltar come to an agreement to at least have an exit to La Linea from the airport? I understand that building the Spainsh annexe might have been problematic - but would it really have been so difficult to come to an agreement to have someone from the Guardia Civil based next to an exit door? It would only take a small container...


what? are you crazy? how are smugglers supposed to get their weed into the eu and their untaxed gibraltar liquor into marocco then?


----------



## Eulanthe

John Maynard said:


> I didn't want to be rude, but if you consider ex-Eastern Bloc (in fact, now Central) European countries, you'll see an outrageous massive emigration and a clear concentration of its people into 5 or 6 Western European countries.
> Are you saying that all the Schengen idea should be abandoned?


Schengen has nothing to do with the freedom of people to work in other countries.

Anyway, it isn't an 'outrageous' amount of emigration, nor are they clearly concentrated into 5 or 6 countries.

The point is that the EU is a union. No-one cares if someone moves from a poor Appalachian town to New York, nor should anyone care if someone moves from Bulgaria to England.


----------



## Corvinus

Hungary - USSR border Záhony -> Csap / Chop back in 1991.
Picture shows vehicle of the last Soviet military member leaving Hungarian territory on June 19th.
Source: hir24.hu


----------



## Alqaszar

Let's just hope they don't come back...


----------



## Corvinus

Hungary - Austria crossing at Sopron back in 1977
Source: sopronanno.hu


----------



## Corvinus

_remove double post ..._


----------



## Palance

Corvinus said:


> Hungary - USSR border Záhony -> Csap / Chop back in 1991.


Could Hungarians (and people from PL, CS, RO etc) easily cross that border to their eastern neighbour in Soviet times?


----------



## Corvinus

Palance said:


> Could Hungarians (and people from PL, CS, RO etc) easily cross that border to their eastern neighbour in Soviet times?


No, absolutely not. Unlike the comparably easy traffic between "peer" Socialist bloc countries (H, CS, PL, DDR, ...), travels to the USSR were strictly regulated. You needed a visa and IIRC individual tourism was not permitted, only via organized tours. Plus there was a point somewhere east of Moscow, eastward of which no foreigner whatsoever was permitted to proceed.

This was not a tragedy, as most Hungarians didn't have a big touristic interest in the USSR anyway.


----------



## Alex_ZR

^^ Maybe this link could help you:

http://www.carina.hr/CURH/Dokumenti/Globalni/Karta_Carinarnica_RH.pdf

In Croatian however, couldn't find it English.


----------



## Eulanthe

These local border crossings are just infuriatingly stupid - they don't warn people in advance that the crossings are for locals only, and there seems to be no real reason why they're restricted anyway. 

I'm actually preparing a letter to my MEP on the issue, as it seems that the whole concept of locals-only border crossings are completely against the spirit of the EU and freedom of movement. Why do I have less right to cross the border than some guy in a village in Croatia?


----------



## cinxxx

I was asking because I wanted to drive from Mostar to Ston via Stolac and those two above I mentioned would have been good choices.


----------



## Palance

cinxxx said:


> ^^Both of them are only for locals?
> Trebimlja/Čepikuće


You are right about this, it seems to be changed last year:
http://msb.gov.ba/dokumenti/medjunarodni/default.aspx?id=9610&langTag=bs-BA

I like such small crossings anyway: https://maps.google.nl/maps?q=Čepik...d=wm-erVab-jFHtXuAU0CKOg&cbp=12,55.26,,1,5.91


----------



## WB2010

I want to show you three interesting and symbolic pictures made by the Polish forumer matizz:




























These pictures were made at the Polish-Ukrainian border and show the small town of Waręż. The border is closed and strictly controlled as it is not only the EU but also the NATO and the Schengen zone external border. Just beyond it, in the background, you can see Waręż with its two former Catholic churches that testify the fact that the town had been inhabited by the Catholic, Polish population for many centuries. The smaller church is now renovated and serves as an Orthodox church and the bigger one, built in 17th century, is empty and ruinned. 

Interestingly Waręż was Polish as long as until 1951, when Stalin forced the communist authorities of Poland to hand over 480 square kilometers of land to the Soviet Union because coal reserves were found there. Poland lost not only Waręż, but also historically important towns of Bełz, Sokal and Krystynopol (now Cervonohrad). The whole local Polish population (14.150 persons) was forced to leave their homes and settle within new Polish borders. 

Stalin planned to annex more Polish territory - fertile lands with the now our easternmost town of Hrubieszów - but fortunately he died in early 1953.

Let us hope that thanks to recent changes in Ukraine it will be easier to cross the border - a new border crossing in the nearby town of Dołhobyczów is now under construction.


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## italystf

EU citizens don't need any visa for Ukraine since the Orange revolution, I think problems are far worse in communities near the border with Russia or Belarus.


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## piotr71

WB2010 said:


> Interestingly Waręż was Polish as long as until 1951, when Stalin forced the communist authorities of Poland to hand over 480 square kilometers of land to the Soviet Union because coal reserves were found there. Poland lost not only Waręż, but also historically important towns of Bełz, Sokal and Krystynopol (now Cervonohrad). The whole local Polish population (14.150 persons) was forced to leave their homes and settle within new Polish borders.


That's all true, however, if we mention head of the story we shall say something about its tail too. I do not want to defend the soviet barbarian and mass murderer but in exchange we were given same size area in Bieszczady, including the town of Ustrzyki Dolne. Inhabitants of Sokal-Waręż area were resettled there. 



> Stalin planned to annex more Polish territory - fertile lands with the now our easternmost town of Hrubieszów - but fortunately he died in early 1953.


Yes, that's also true, but we would have been given similar size area in exchange, consisting of railway Zagórz-Przemyśl which partly remained on the other side of the border.


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## WB2010

^^

You are right, it was a land swap, but a very unfavourable one for Poland:

1. Poland was forced to give up a very fertile land, rich in coal (annual production capacity - 15 million tons) and full of Polish historical heritage (for instance the sanctuary in Sokal-Żwirka, the Potocki's palace in Krystynopol or Catholic churches in Bełz, Waręż or Uhnów).
In exchange we were given barren, hilly territory around Ustrzyki Dolne without any natural resources.

2. By 1951 the territory Poland had to hand over to the Soviet Union was inhabited exclusively by the Polish population, but of course Stalin was not concerned at all about this, they simply had to abandon their homes and move westwards.

Map of territories Poland lost in 1951:


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## Kanadzie

And Ustrzyki Dolne was part of II RP so it is like stealing your bicycle and then offering to trade it back for your car :lol: it is a brotherly gesture, just... in a dysfunctional family


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## fbeavis

italystf said:


> USA - Canada border: not difficult to walk across it!
> https://www.google.com/maps?ll=49.0...WIYm1kQTvTkTNQ&cbp=12,179.62,,0,9.78&t=m&z=11


You can go from Canada to Hyder Alaska and there is no border control. There is however border control going from Hyder to Canada


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## koszatek

WB2010 said:


> Map of territories Poland lost in 1951:


The border changes in 1945 and 1951 forced to build new railroad bypasses of Rava Ruska.
Here is a map, dashed blue line is a border during 1945-1951.








Firstly, the Hrebenne-Uhnów (red line) bypass was built, because the railroad near Uhnów and Krystynopol was not connected with the rest of Poland rail network. It was finished in 1949 and was only two years in use.
The border change in 1951 forced to dismount the track. The second bypass (green line) was built in 1955 and it is still in use.

In 1996 a railway international border crossing Hrebenne-Rava Ruska was open, but after Poland become part of EU, the trains was demolished by smugglers and the border police, so it was cancelled in 2005.
Before opening the railway border crossing the track was repaired. The last 1,5 km from the border on polish side was in very bad condition (not in use since 1945) and full of wrecks of locomotives and cars. The wrecks was set here by polish railwaymen to stop potential soviet invasion in 1980 and removed in 1996.


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## Eulanthe

Palance said:


> You are right about this, it seems to be changed last year:
> http://msb.gov.ba/dokumenti/medjunarodni/default.aspx?id=9610&langTag=bs-BA
> 
> I like such small crossings anyway: https://maps.google.nl/maps?q=Čepik...d=wm-erVab-jFHtXuAU0CKOg&cbp=12,55.26,,1,5.91


That's the other reason why I'm annoyed, I love those small crossings!

Probably my favourite crossing is the Vitaljina/Kobila crossing from HR/MNE. It has such a quiet, relaxed atmosphere. 

Still, good to see that the Cepikuce crossing is open for international transit, I'm definitely going there to pick up a stamp!


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## cinxxx

^^I will be also driving to Montenegro from Cavtat.
I was considering taking the border crossing Vitaljina or the one from the main road D2.


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## Eulanthe

cinxxx said:


> ^^I will be also driving to Montenegro from Cavtat.
> I was considering taking the border crossing Vitaljina or the one from the main road D2.


Take Vitaljina, all the reports I have is that the Croatian border police are really checking cars at Karasovici on the D2. Vitaljina in comparison is very laid back, and the Croatian border police have an absolutely beautiful view over Prevlaka. There's never any problems there, and they are far friendlier than at Karasovici.

Make sure your insurance is in order for MNE though, as you probably won't be able to buy it at Kobila (the Montenegrin side of Vitaljina).


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## an-148

take Vitaljina, for sure !!!


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## Alex_ZR

Border crossing Šid (SRB)-Tovarnik (HR):

Serbian side:










Croatian side:










Now, the interesting part: Orthodox cemetery of the Tovarnik village is located at the border line with Serbia, behind Croatian border control. Which means that if someone wants to visit cemetery, he must cross Croatian checkpoint!

http://goo.gl/maps/G523N


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## tripleaxl

^^

Does the Serbian side double as a junk yard?


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## erxgli

*Mexico - New Mexico USA border*

Children crossing the border getting back home to Chihuahua Mexico from schools in New Mexico USA.


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## Reivajar

How's that? There is any kind of agreement between Mexico and USA for allowing Mexican children to study in US schools?


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## Palance

It looks like there are no border checks (although I cannot imagine that on this border)


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## ChrisZwolle

I believe that is a wildlife crossing.


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## Zagor666

Border bridge between Konispol/Albania and Skala/Greece :cheers:


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## verreme

Crossing the border between France and Switzerland on A41/A1 and then driving into and around Genève:






(and yes I think I was flashed... for driving 50 in a 50).


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## cinxxx

What are the conditions when entering BiH, MNE, AL, MK?
Is it possible to take a photo with the country sign (and yourself out of the car )? Should you ask the border staff about this?


----------



## erxgli

erxgli said:


> *Mexico - New Mexico USA border*
> 
> Children crossing the border getting back home to Chihuahua Mexico from schools in New Mexico USA.





Reivajar said:


> How's that? There is any kind of agreement between Mexico and USA for allowing Mexican children to study in US schools?




Those children are actually US-born children living in Mexico and studying in the United States.


----------



## volodaaaa

cinxxx said:


> What are the conditions when entering BiH, MNE, AL, MK?
> Is it possible to take a photo with the country sign (and yourself out of the car )? Should you ask the border staff about this?


I've made several photos of these signs and borders, but I've never found a courage to get out of my car a take a photo out of it (photos are usually taken from my car and therefore you can see my dirty windscreen on them). :lol: Especially Macedonian border policemen are way too moody to me


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## cinxxx

^^You see some of those pictures that's why I asked, especially by motorbikers.


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## TommyLopez

verreme said:


> Crossing the border between France and Switzerland on A41/A1 and then driving into and around Genève:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (and yes I think I was flashed... for driving 50 in a 50).


^^ Typical Swiss point of view of the Schengen system, many cops doing absolutely nothing... And this is nothing compared to the border point Chiasso-Como with Italy, where during the summer I waited almost 30min to cross the border... :bash: Really good job!


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## eucitizen

Weren't those cops the custom officers?As Switzerland has not the custom union with the EU you still abide to the custom control when crossing.


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## Eulanthe

cinxxx said:


> What are the conditions when entering BiH, MNE, AL, MK?
> Is it possible to take a photo with the country sign (and yourself out of the car )? Should you ask the border staff about this?


As far as I'm aware, there are no restrictions on crossing any of those borders on foot, so getting out of the car is no issue at all. I've wandered around quite a few border crossings before/after the controls and no-one has batted an eyelid. 

There's no restriction on photography at most border crossings too, except the Kosovo ones. It wouldn't hurt to ask for permission if you want to photograph the buildings, but for the sign, no-one will care if you do it. 

Can't speak for MK, but certainly MNE, AL and BiH border guards are a cheery, friendly bunch. Certainly - if you want to photograph the MNE border sign on the HR border, it won't be an issue because neither sign is near the actual border crossing. 

Getting out of the car is a non-issue. They're used to people crossing on foot and I've never heard a single word about doing it. I even made a point of crossing to/from Hungary a couple of times when stuck in a ridiculous queue at Horgos, and no-one batted an eyelid.


----------



## verreme

TommyLopez said:


> ^^ Typical Swiss point of view of the Schengen system, many cops doing absolutely nothing... And this is nothing compared to the border point Chiasso-Como with Italy, where during the summer I waited almost 30min to cross the border... :bash: Really good job!


I crossed the Como-Chiasso border last year. Ironically, it was the Italians who checked every single screw of my car (I reckon that being Spanish and in my 20s I am quite likely to be carrying some weed).



eucitizen said:


> Weren't those cops the custom officers?As Switzerland has not the custom union with the EU you still abide to the custom control when crossing.


Yes, it's a custom thing. As you said, Switzerland is within the Schengen zone, but you have to go through custom controls.

Road-wise, Switzerland being part of the Schengen agreement means little. You still have to go through 2 different checkpoints and you're likely to be stopped and checked. Minor roads are a different story, I crossed the old Perly douane four times and encountered no officers.


----------



## Eulanthe

eucitizen said:


> Weren't those cops the custom officers?As Switzerland has not the custom union with the EU you still abide to the custom control when crossing.


Precisely, although I think quite a few of them there were patrolling the use of vignettes rather than Customs. But yes, under Schengen law, they shouldn't be stopping every car, but rather they should be conducting operations based on intelligence and risk analysis. Therefore, it's normal that many of them would be "doing nothing", because that's exactly what Schengen demands. 

Having said that, the attitude of the French towards EU Customs controls is diabolical. They've abandoned the vast majority of their offices and seem to be doing absolutely nothing to control imports from Switzerland.


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## Kanadzie

That's not diabolical, it is finally being reasonable and treating people with respect instead of worrying about "swiss terrorists" like some other countries


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## Eulanthe

Kanadzie said:


> That's not diabolical, it is finally being reasonable and treating people with respect instead of worrying about "swiss terrorists" like some other countries


But the complete abandoning of controls isn't sensible too. The Swiss approach (random "flying" controls) would at least make sense - but the French seem to have taken the attitude that there's no need for any controls. 

I have a friend who had to import (legally) some very high priced computer software from Switzerland to France. He had the money to pay for the VAT and import duties, but what he found was that it was nearly impossible to find an open customs office. Eventually, he went to the main France-Switzerland border crossing near Geneva, but there should surely be other places to import such goods?

(interestingly, the first place he tried was Geneva Airport - the French Customs were nowhere to be found, even though they were theoretically open)


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## Kanadzie

But goods should be free, to hell with VAT (and especially import duties)  Is it reasonable to pay for the expense of such controls to take relatively small amounts of money? It doesn't provide useful service (like government revenue) to the public, it only hurts them for nothing.

It is kind of amusing though that the French are not at all like that on the other side with all the English coming and going


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## Palance

Eulanthe said:


> Certainly - if you want to photograph the MNE border sign on the HR border, it won't be an issue because neither sign is near the actual border crossing.


And what about these ones?


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## cinxxx

Are there any recent pictures from: 
- HR/BiH crossing A10/A1
- BiH/HR crossing Trebimlja/Cepikuce
- HR/MNE crossing Vitaljina/Njivice
- MNE/AL crossing Božaj/Hani i Hotit
- AL/MK crossing Pogradec/Sv. Naum
- MK/SRB crossing E75


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## Alex_ZR

cinxxx said:


> Are there any recent pictures from:
> - HR/BiH crossing A10/A1
> - BiH/HR crossing Trebimlja/Cepikuce
> - HR/MNE crossing Vitaljina/Njivice
> - MNE/AL crossing Božaj/Hani i Hotit
> - AL/MK crossing Pogradec/Sv. Naum
> *- MK/SRB crossing E75*


It's called Tabanovce/Preševo. 

Serbian side:










Macedonian side:










Why do you ask?


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## cinxxx

^^The one you posted is a large one, I see there are also some pictures on Panoramio.

For the other ones I didn't find much.
I ask because I want to know what to expect, since I'm planning to cross exactly those in my Balkan trip late May.


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## Eulanthe

Palance - both of those pictures are nowhere near the HR/MNE border stations. They're in the so-called "no man's land" - as the border stations are about 2km or more apart. I've got pictures somewhere of those signs, and it wasn't a problem to stop. 

As an interesting aside, the main MK border crossing with Greece is horrible - does anyone know if it's from the Yugoslav-era? The one with Serbia is a lot better, even though it's still quite horrible.

[quote="Kanadzie"[/quote]But goods should be free, to hell with VAT (and especially import duties) Is it reasonable to pay for the expense of such controls to take relatively small amounts of money? It doesn't provide useful service (like government revenue) to the public, it only hurts them for nothing.

It is kind of amusing though that the French are not at all like that on the other side with all the English coming and going [/quote]

The French are like that. The controls at Dover are a joke, and they rarely bother travellers at St Pancras or Folkestone. You're more likely to be scrutinised by the British rather than the French when leaving the UK. 

As for goods being free - bear in mind that the duty on a mobile phone (for instance) could easily be over 100 EUR. An expensive camera could easily come to 150EUR or more. Allowing a free for all when it comes to imports is just madness - especially as the Germans and Italians maintain their controls.

Not having controls also opens up the border for all sorts of abuse, such as reclaiming Swiss VAT and then not paying the French VAT.

Cinxxx - Vitaljina and Kobila are just little huts by the side of the road with a barrier to stop people driving past. Your documents will usually be taken into the hut to be checked.


----------



## Alex_ZR

cinxxx said:


> ^^The one you posted is a large one, I see there are also some pictures on Panoramio.
> 
> For the other ones I didn't find much.
> I ask because I want to know what to expect, since I'm planning to cross exactly those in my Balkan trip late May.


Preševo is one of the four largest and crowded Serbian border crossings, but since there is agreement between Serbia and Macedonia that their citizens can cross the border just with their IDs, I hope there will be no queues as it can be during summer season. I wish you luck!


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## Eulanthe

A very fascinating video showing the situation at Karasovici border crossing (HR-YU, modern day MNE) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzbu3bt5RX8

I may be wrong, but I think this video shows the situation on the HR border in general. Croatia never closed any border crossings during the conflicts there, which is why both border police and Customs are shown working there. I'm pretty certain the closure of the border was on the YU side.

I don't think this border was actually opened up until a few years later, against the wishes of the YU Federal government. I don't have any information as to the alternative possibilities to travel from HR into YU - I think it may have been possible to go (after Dayton) to go via Treblinje, but I suspect very few Croats would have considered such a thing.


----------



## Palance

Eulanthe said:


> A very fascinating video showing the situation at Karasovici border crossing (HR-YU, modern day MNE) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzbu3bt5RX8


I know, I showed you that video here 



Eulanthe said:


> I may be wrong, but I think this video shows the situation on the HR border in general. Croatia never closed any border crossings during the conflicts there, which is why both border police and Customs are shown working there. I'm pretty certain the closure of the border was on the YU side.


I think that a border crossing should be considered as closed if one or both parties close it. So Debeli Brijeg was totally closed 



Eulanthe said:


> I don't think this border was actually opened up until a few years later, against the wishes of the YU Federal government. I don't have any information as to the alternative possibilities to travel from HR into YU - I think it may have been possible to go (after Dayton) to go via Treblinje, but I suspect very few Croats would have considered such a thing.


First short openings were around Christmas 1998 to let familiies from both sides of the border celebrate it together, finally opening was in 1999.

Croatian newssite about the opening in 1999: http://vijesti.hrt.hr/arhiv/99/01/22/HRT0050.html


----------



## TommyLopez

verreme said:


> I crossed the Como-Chiasso border last year. Ironically, it was the Italians who checked every single screw of my car (I reckon that being Spanish and in my 20s I am quite likely to be carrying some weed).
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it's a custom thing. As you said, Switzerland is within the Schengen zone, but you have to go through custom controls.
> 
> Road-wise, Switzerland being part of the Schengen agreement means little. You still have to go through 2 different checkpoints and you're likely to be stopped and checked. Minor roads are a different story, I crossed the old Perly douane four times and encountered no officers.


True, on the Chiasso-Como it was the Italians customs officers (approximately 10 of them) who just stayed next to the road and talking, that's why Italy is almost bankrupting :lol:


----------



## Eulanthe

Palance said:


> I know, I showed you that video here


I forgot about that! 

What's interesting about that video is when the EC monitor passes the Croatian checkpoint and heads down the road. He appears to be unchallenged when passing the presumably Yugoslavian hut - I wonder where they actually closed the border?



> I think that a border crossing should be considered as closed if one or both parties close it. So Debeli Brijeg was totally closed


Hmm, there is a parallel with the Gibraltar border - from the Spanish point of view, the border was closed. The Gibraltarian point of view was that the border was open for business. I actually checked with a local in Gibraltar, and he told me that both immigration and Customs went to work as usual then in case the Spanish opened the border. 



> First short openings were around Christmas 1998 to let familiies from both sides of the border celebrate it together, finally opening was in 1999.
> 
> Croatian newssite about the opening in 1999: http://vijesti.hrt.hr/arhiv/99/01/22/HRT0050.html


Thank you! That's an interesting piece of information. 

I did read somewhere that


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## Palance

On the other hand, I cannot find when the border controls had been established on both sides (even when the borders were closed). I have only read that this route was inaccessible from the late 1991 because of bombing and shooting, but not before the Croats managed to put a sign there. Unfortunately I have not found any picture of those times.

For Neum (HR-BIH) I could find that the border controls were in function from 1993.


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## volodaaaa

cinxxx said:


> ^^The one you posted is a large one, I see there are also some pictures on Panoramio.
> 
> For the other ones I didn't find much.
> I ask because I want to know what to expect, since I'm planning to cross exactly those in my Balkan trip late May.


If you want some information about that border crossing, let me know. I made it several times to Greece for holiday and E-75 between Bratislava and Thessaloniki is indeed familiar to me.


----------



## volodaaaa

Alex_ZR said:


> Preševo is one of the four largest and crowded Serbian border crossings, but since there is agreement between Serbia and Macedonia that their citizens can cross the border just with their IDs, I hope there will be no queues as it can be during summer season. I wish you luck!


In summer season, it is bearable to cross it only at night. Long congestions occur predominantly during day. In contrast, a much worse situation is on Horgoš - Rözske which is full all the time :lol:


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## cinxxx

I should cross from MK to SRB (Tabanovce/Preševo) on the last Saturday of May, sometime before noon I guess.

I won't really be in a hurry or sort, my destination would be Timisoara, RO, nothing else planned on the way.


----------



## volodaaaa

cinxxx said:


> I should cross from MK to SRB (Tabanovce/Preševo) on the last Saturday of May, sometime before noon I guess.
> 
> I won't really be in a hurry or sort, my destination would be Timisoara, RO, nothing else planned on the way.


Don't forget to prepare 5 € banknotes for Macedonian toll. The tollbooth staff is somehow totally crazy over 5 € banknotes :lol:

Last summer, I was about to pay 1 € road toll on first tollbooth. The employee refuse Euro-coins and let me choose between paying in local currency (denars) or in 5 € banknotes. Since I had not got local currency, I decided to pay in Euro. But the only thing I had was the 20 € banknote :lol: The employee gave me back 3x5 € banknote and the rest in denars (I was convinced it will be the exact amount of denars to pay on next tollboths and also to pay the journey back, which was not true :bash: ). I was missing 10 denars on my way back home (had 20 instead of 30). Respective staff member offered me to pay in 5 € banknotes (while the given-back money would be in Denars) or to pay in denars I had insufficient amount of. Finally I was allowed to pay by my Visa card. Now I have 20 denars and I am definitely ready to use it on my journey to holiday this year :lol: 

But my dad (he took the same journey month later) ended up even worse :lol: The lowest banknote he had was 100 € :lol: You should not imagine what he got back :nuts:


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## Kanadzie

volodaaaa said:


> But my dad (he took the same journey month later) ended up even worse :lol: The lowest banknote he had was 100 € :lol: You should not imagine what he got back :nuts:


A smile and "ok thank you, please go now" :lol:


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

http://www.google.rs/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&docid=osKKuh9uQSB3NM&tbnid=zLUGqjObKjDStM:&ved=0CAMQjhw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.novosti.rs%2Fvesti%2Fturizam.90.html%3A336318-Grcka-Prolaz-putnika-nesmetan&ei=3pFBU_7YK8KJtAaQwICwAw&bvm=bv.64367178,d.Yms&psig=AFQjCNGNSUFqbvwgYj6wiMpvA_R27fzGdQ&ust=1396892508543166

This how "Presevo" border station in Serbia looks .


----------



## Eulanthe

Palance said:


> On the other hand, I cannot find when the border controls had been established on both sides (even when the borders were closed). I have only read that this route was inaccessible from the late 1991 because of bombing and shooting, but not before the Croats managed to put a sign there. Unfortunately I have not found any picture of those times.


I know from my various books on Yugoslavia that the Customs and immigration controls controls were more or less implemented upon the declaration of independence. There are references (such as in Misha Glenny's excellent book) about this subject, I will try and find them and post them. But the Croats were certainly controlling the borders as of the day of independence.

The signs themselves - I'm not quite sure. The internal borders of Yugoslavia are always described as existing on paper but being of no relevance and not being easy to find, which suggests that they didn't mark them. Slovenia definitely had Republika Slovenia signs a few days after independence, as there are pictures online of the Slovenia signs lying on the ground next to SFR Yugoslavia signs. 

If I was guessing, then I suspect that when Slovenia and Croatia changed the name of the republics to drop the Socialist part, they may already have erected such signs. 

Both Slovenia and Croatia were already responsible for collecting Customs duties at the border, so it wouldn't have been difficult for them to simply post some extra Customs workers to the relevant borders. 

As for the war, yes, the whole Konvale area was occupied. The Serb-Montenegrin forces left in October 1992, with the area at Karasovici being under the supervision of the UN forces. My feeling is that at least the Croatians would have re-established a border crossing at that point. Another clue from the video is that the buildings are painted white and blue, in the style of other border checkpoints, along with the plaques on the wall - so certainly, the Croatians were treating it as a full checkpoint.

If my understanding of Yugoslavian constitutional theory is correct (and it is an interest of mine!) - then Croatia would have imposed the controls immediately upon independence, whereas Yugoslavia wouldn't have imposed any controls until they signed the treaty of normalising relations in 1996. The Montenegrin guard hut is clearly visible in the video, but apparently unmanned. 



> For Neum (HR-BIH) I could find that the border controls were in function from 1993.


That's interesting in itself, given that Neum would have been firmly under the control of Herceg-Bosna at the time. I'm only guessing, but I suspect the controls may have been to prevent refugees from leaving Bosnia more than anything else. Certainly, plenty was smuggled into Bosnia through Croatia at the time.


----------



## Palance

Eulanthe said:


> That's interesting in itself, given that Neum would have been firmly under the control of Herceg-Bosna at the time. I'm only guessing, but I suspect the controls may have been to prevent refugees from leaving Bosnia more than anything else. Certainly, plenty was smuggled into Bosnia through Croatia at the time.


This source (in Croatian) says that the beginning of the border checks started 19 May 1993. Nothing about Herceg-Bosna however. Are there any pics from HB-borders anyway?


----------



## italystf

Eulanthe said:


> The signs themselves - I'm not quite sure. The internal borders of Yugoslavia are always described as existing on paper but being of no relevance and not being easy to find, which suggests that they didn't mark them. Slovenia definitely had Republika Slovenia signs a few days after independence, as there are pictures online of the Slovenia signs lying on the ground next to SFR Yugoslavia signs.


Yes, I posted those pics a while ago. They are taken at the Pesek border crossing between Italy and Slovenia.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=105458598&postcount=8109


----------



## Alex_ZR

volodaaaa said:


> In summer season, it is bearable to cross it only at night. Long congestions occur predominantly during day. In contrast, a much worse situation is on Horgoš - Rözske which is full all the time :lol:


Horgoš-Röszke development during 20th century:

1940



















At that time Hungary used to drive on left (they changed it in 1941).

1960s


----------



## Eulanthe

Palance said:


> This source (in Croatian) says that the beginning of the border checks started 19 May 1993. Nothing about Herceg-Bosna however. Are there any pics from HB-borders anyway?


There's nothing in my books, not even a description. There are some claims on the Wikipedia page that Herceg-Bosna wasn't a parastate like the Serbian ones, as it never declared independence from BiH. It did name itself the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, but unlike the RSK, it never held a referendum on secession. Croatia was always really touchy about how the situation there was perceived, and it seems possible that they deliberately refrained from trying to declare a parastate there. 

The RSK ones are described as having giant Serbian flags flying above huts used for the purpose of border control. In their constitutional theory, they were an integral part of Serbia.

All this doesn't answer the question of who set up the controls in Neum. It wouldn't have been the Republic of BiH, as they were at war with Herceg-Bosna at the time. But Herceg-Bosna setting up the controls doesn't make much sense too, unless they were trying to gain revenue from Customs controls there.

Of course, maybe the controls were simply set up by Croatia, which always pretended not to have anything to do with the chaos in Bosnia.

^^ is it possible that the Yugoslav border crossing above was the same one used until recently? I've seen a picture somewhere of the old Horgos crossing that still exists, and it only has two lanes each way.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Eulanthe said:


> ^^ is it possible that the Yugoslav border crossing above was the same one used until recently? I've seen a picture somewhere of the old Horgos crossing that still exists, and it only has two lanes each way.


Old border crossings (at both sides) still exist, but abandoned since new ones were built at the motorway.

Old Roszke crossing:










Old Horgoš crossing:










http://goo.gl/maps/wGKrz


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> If I was guessing, then I suspect that when Slovenia and Croatia changed the name of the republics to drop the Socialist part, they may already have erected such signs.


In 1990? I doubt. I think they were erected right after the declaration of independence in 1991.


----------



## volodaaaa

It was 2006 when I crossed the old Horgoš border crossing for the last time. I remember old wooden gates with Yugoslav tricolour. And the tour de parking lot since the motorway was under construction


----------



## xrtn2

Brazil ... Uruguay 






































Mall in Uruguay

Most car plates from Brazil. :crazy:


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> In 1990? I doubt. I think they were erected right after the declaration of independence in 1991.


Any chance you can do some googling and find out? 

Alex_ZR - I'm going to do my best to get access to the old border crossings this summer. I get the feeling that I won't be successful, but it's always worth a try. It's unbelievable to think that Horgos/Roszke handled so much traffic with those tiny crossings, isn't it?


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> Any chance you can do some googling and find out?


http://www.carina.gov.si/si/novosti/sgd/2011/osamosvajanje_slovenije_carinska_vojna/

It says they replaced SFRY signs with RS signs on 26th June 1991 (one day after the declaration of independence).


----------



## Alex_ZR

Eulanthe said:


> Alex_ZR - I'm going to do my best to get access to the old border crossings this summer. I get the feeling that I won't be successful, but it's always worth a try. It's unbelievable to think that Horgos/Roszke handled so much traffic with those tiny crossings, isn't it?


It isn't problem to go there. Person who took these photos already did that, so why wouldn't you? It sure handled it, because there wasn't motorway on the both sides, just single carriageway. Hungarian M5 reached border in April 2006.


----------



## Eulanthe

Alex_ZR said:


> It isn't problem to go there. Person who took these photos already did that, so why wouldn't you? It sure handled it, because there wasn't motorway on the both sides, just single carriageway. Hungarian M5 reached border in April 2006.


Well, the Hungarian side is locked up (although there's a comprehensive photo series online somewhere that I've seen) - but I believe that Serbia has a law about being too close to the border without a permit.


----------



## vatse

*Argentina and Chile*, Paso de Jama

It's the shared border post located at Argentina's side









And the border


















from http://tarmotamming.blogspot.com


----------



## Kanadzie

When that Estonian Mazdabus arrived some border guard's head must have exploded


----------



## alserrod

Argentina-Chile road pannel says on bottom "A.S.N.M 4230m"

It means heigh over sea leve (Altura Sobre el Nivel del Mar)


Not flat indeed!


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> Argentina-Chile road pannel says on bottom "A.S.N.M 4230m"
> 
> It means heigh over sea leve (Altura Sobre el Nivel del Mar)
> 
> 
> Not flat indeed!


It could be the 2nd highest border crossing in the world after the one between China and Pakistan.


----------



## OulaL

vatse said:


>


The Estonia-sticker below the L in "Chile", was that yours?


----------



## Skyline_

4320 meters above sea level? And what's the latitude of that region? Is it outside the tropical zone?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

italystf said:


> It could be the 2nd highest border crossing in the world after the one between China and Pakistan.


The _Paso Chungara–Tambo Quemado_ at the border of Bolivia and Chile is at approximately 4680 meters above sea leve.


----------



## Verso

OulaL said:


> The Estonia-sticker below the L in "Chile", was that yours?


It's not _vatse_ travelling.


----------



## Metred

ChrisZwolle said:


> The _Paso Chungara–Tambo Quemado_ at the border of Bolivia and Chile is at approximately 4680 meters above sea leve.


That's right. And here's a picture:

_Trucks waiting to pass the border, Paso Chungara-Tambo Quemado (Chile/Bolivia)_


Paso fronterizo, Tambo quemado. Queremos entrar! por Jorge Aguayo, en Flickr


----------



## alserrod

Skyline_ said:


> 4320 meters above sea level? And what's the latitude of that region? Is it outside the tropical zone?


The Andes are quite near to the Pacific. That makes Chile a country where you can go from sea level to 3000 metres or so in less than 100 km in almost the whole country.

That road is spotted in the Chilean side in street view, not still in the Argentinian side. But you can see the same signal pointing Argentina, limit Argentina/Chile and distances to "nearest" cities in Argentina.

It is easy to find. Look for trifinium Bolivia-Chile-Argentina and it is the first border pass Argentina-Chile to the south.


By the way, I haven't seen custom booths!!!


----------



## g.spinoza

Volcan Parinacota looks absolutely stunning.


----------



## WB2010

Famous and breathtaking Chilean "los caracoles" between Santiago and the Argentinian border: 












:nuts:


----------



## johnny_machine

Lo Wu, old border between British Hong Kong - Chinese Canton:










From here the British section of the Kowloon-Canton railway ran from the green and mostly pristine New Territories down to southern Tsim Sha Tsui.

Kowloon-Canton railway, British section (now disjointed from Chinese section and completely integrated into Hong Kong MTR):


















Sleepy border road, 1960's:









Border bridge, 1960's:









In the 1970's, Shenzhen was no longer a frontier (neither a city in today's Shenzhen terms). Hong Kong was booming and the border was full of activity:









For those who are rail enthusiats out there :cheers:, here is a sweet documentary on the 22 or so miles of the British Section of the Kowloon Canton Railway. Highlights are the landscape, devekopments along the track, rolling stock, level crossings and bridges, people and livestock, refurbishment of old stations and openings of new stations all the way up to the electrification of the track in 1983:


----------



## johnny_machine

Lo Wu - Shenzhen border, today:

Shenzhen side:









Shenzhen train station, missed my train one time, had to sleep in a nearby cheap pension:









































Shenzhen side all built up, while this part of Hong Kong is by far mostly green.

















If you get there really early they open the border to the sound of the 'March of the Volunteers' at 6 am. To my surprise the only other foreign guy there at that hour was also Portuguese (as well as a lady from Taiwan).

Hong Kong side:

















(no smoking :bash










Today the border on the HK side is integrated with HK's MTR, linking it with most transport options in HK. It takes about 1 hour to get from Central (Victoria) to Lo Wu border station. On the Shenzhen side it is also linked with Shenzhen metro and the great China National Rail station, with trains arriving and departing to most major cities through China.


----------



## johnny_machine

Checkpoint Charlie (East-West Berlin), by Fred Kempe:


----------



## tripleaxl

italystf said:


> I though that for Poles was almost impossible to go to West Germany and West Berlin before 1989, if it was so easy everybody could flee communist Poland.


I know people from Bulgaria who would go to East Berlin and were allowed to visit West Berlin, too, without any need for a special permit but could not go to West Germany.


----------



## Palance

In those times I had a Yugoslav passport as well. Yugoslavs didn't need visa for almost any country


----------



## Alex_ZR

Palance said:


> In those times I had a Yugoslav passport as well. Yugoslavs didn't need visa for almost any country


Yugoslavs didn't need visa for East Germany unless visit lasts longer than 72 hours. I think that Soviet visa was necessary for individual visits. Yugoslav citizens also needed Greek visa (maybe because of Macedonia or Tito's support to Greek communists during the civil war?).


----------



## volodaaaa

Alex_ZR said:


> Yugoslavs didn't need visa for East Germany unless visit lasts longer than 72 hours. I think that Soviet visa was necessary for individual visits. Yugoslav citizens also needed Greek visa (maybe because of Macedonia or Tito's support to Greek communists during the civil war?).


It is really strange how Greeks and Serbs loves each other, but hate Macedonians :lol: I mean Greek at least.


----------



## Skyline_

volodaaaa said:


> It is really strange how Greeks and Serbs loves each other, but hate Macedonians :lol: I mean Greek at least.


Greeks and Serbs were allies in all Balkan wars plus WW1 and WW2.


----------



## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> The issue of the flights is a curious one - I really don't have any information on them. If I was guessing, they were probably quasi-internal - no formal controls, but subject to random checks.
> 
> It's also possible that the airlines themselves were responsible for enforcing West German immigration law, just like today.


It was agreed at the Potsdam conference that aircrafts owned by the allied countries only were allowed to fly to Berlin. In 1949, Soviet Union "returned" East Berlin to DDR, thus effectively violating the agreement on their sector.

Until 1990, there were three narrow air corridors over DDR to Berlin: towards Hamburg, Hannover and Frankfurt am Main. All the aircraft were to be registered in UK, US or France, and all the crew members had to carry the passports of these countries. The air corridor was controlled by the Berlin flight control, not by DDR. The width of the corridor was 32 km, and the maximum altitude 3000 m, thus making it rather ineffective to fly jets.

If a citizen of DDR got a permission to visit West Berlin, all his or her ID cards and other personal documentation were confiscated at the border for the duration on the visit. That made it difficult to fly away, as the IDs were checked at the aiports. In addition, the whole family almost never got a permission to cross the border, but someone had to stay as "a hostage". Everyone knew the other family members would have suffered if one had escaped.

It was allowed for non-allied airlines to fly to Schönefeldt, because that airport is located outside the city limits of Berlin. Finnair opened a route Helsinki-Berlin, but traveling to West Berlin required a transit visa until 1987 when the Finnish-DDR agreement of exemption from visa came into effect. I visited Berlin once or twice at the end of 1980's, making a stop in Hamburg and taking a Pan Am flight for the Hamburg-Tegel flight.


----------



## italystf

tripleaxl said:


> I know people from Bulgaria who would go to East Berlin and were allowed to visit West Berlin, too, without any need for a special permit but could not go to West Germany.


I think that once in West Berlin, it wasn't difficult to ask political asylum in the West.


volodaaaa said:


> It is really strange how Greeks and Serbs loves each other, but hate Macedonians :lol: I mean Greek at least.


Greece and (Former Yugoslav Republic of) Macedionia still have problems because of the stupid naming issue.


----------



## x-type

Palance said:


> In those times I had a Yugoslav passport as well. Yugoslavs didn't need visa for almost any country


you are talking about eastern block. for western countries there were visas required. maybe not all, but UK and France definitely.


----------



## tripleaxl

volodaaaa said:


> It is really strange how Greeks and Serbs loves each other, but hate Macedonians :lol: I mean Greek at least.


Especially when it was Serbs that created the whole Macedonian mess. But, since they don't share a border, all is fine and dandy. The real problems are between immediate neighbors :lol:


----------



## tripleaxl

x-type said:


> you are talking about eastern block. for western countries there were visas required. maybe not all, but UK and France definitely.


But Yugoslavia was a world power! The leader of the non-aligned movement! :troll:


----------



## tripleaxl

italystf said:


> I think that once in West Berlin, it wasn't difficult to ask political asylum in the West.


For East Germans - yes. Thus, they were not permitted to go there.


----------



## Skyline_

italystf said:


> Greece and (Former Yugoslav Republic of) Macedionia still have problems because of the stupid naming issue.


Blame Tito for that issue. It was Vardarska before... "Macedonia".


----------



## Verso

"Vardarska" is an adjective, not a noun, so you can only say "Vardarska banovina", meaning Vardar Banate.


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> "Vardarska" is an adjective, not a noun, so you can only say "Vardarska banovina", meaning Vardar Banate.


like Dolenjska or Štajerska? :troll:


----------



## nestvaran

volodaaaa said:


> It is really strange how Greeks and Serbs loves each other, but hate Macedonians :lol: I mean Greek at least.


Serbs don't have any problems with Macedonians, they even call them 'southern Serbs' :lol:


----------



## nestvaran

Verso said:


> "Vardarska" is an adjective, not a noun, so you can only say "Vardarska banovina", meaning Vardar Banate.


'Hrvatska' is also an adjective, so what :dunno:


----------



## Verso

x-type said:


> like Dolenjska or Štajerska? :troll:





nestvaran said:


> 'Hrvatska' is also an adjective, so what :dunno:


They can be both (actually adjectives start with small letter in Slovenian), but it's "Vardarska banovina", not just "Vardarska" AFAIK.


----------



## LMB

g.spinoza said:


> Are you sure? This would mean customs between West Berlin and West Germany, but afaik there were none.


Not "customs", but "immigration". Like Schengen <-> UK/Ireland: there are no customs (free movement of goods), but there are controls on the people.


----------



## LMB

Since we're talking about Berlin: 

Does anybody remember what it was like to cross to West Berlin by train? My mother did it, but she cannot recall specifics other than "horrible atmosphere caused by People's Army standing with big German Shepherds on a separate platform at [what I think is] Alexanderplatz ". 

Any pics anybody? Personal, or second-hand stories?


----------



## Alex_ZR

x-type said:


> you are talking about eastern block. for western countries there were visas required. maybe not all, but UK and France definitely.


My father travelled around western Europe in early 1980s and he didn't need any visa, including UK and France.


----------



## x-type

Alex_ZR said:


> My father travelled around western Europe in early 1980s and he didn't need any visa, including UK and France.


my parents went to Spain in 1989 and needed visa for France (and maybe even Spain, i don't remember that, but France definitely)


----------



## Verso

x-type said:


> my parents went to Spain in 1989 and needed visa for France (and maybe even Spain, i don't remember that, but France definitely)


Maybe it got worse in 1980s, but here I see only visas for Greece and Egypt.


----------



## Kanadzie

LMB said:


> Since we're talking about Berlin:
> 
> Does anybody remember what it was like to cross to West Berlin by train? My mother did it, but she cannot recall specifics other than "horrible atmosphere caused by People's Army standing with big German Shepherds on a separate platform at [what I think is] Alexanderplatz ".
> 
> Any pics anybody? Personal, or second-hand stories?


Around 1959 my grandfather, grandmother and father (small child) crossed from Ostberlin to Westberlin via S-bahn while unofficially leaving Poland "on vacation". Apparently there were some of these big guys who got on the train remarking about amount of luggage on the rack larger than normal for cross-town commuters, but nobody in the train answered them, und so, family stayed in Spandau for a while and applied for/obtained asylum in BRD


----------



## sponge_bob

First place I ever had to buy a Visa was on the Yugoslav border in the early 1980s. The only oddity in Western Europe back then was that you were strongly advised to get a stamp on your passport every time you entered and left a country but the current 3 month 'tourist' status applied back then like it does now.


----------



## Fatfield

LMB said:


> Not "customs", but "immigration". Like Schengen <-> UK/Ireland: there are no customs (free movement of goods), but there are controls on the people.


There are no controls on people between the UK & Ireland.


----------



## italystf

Kanadzie said:


> Around 1959 my grandfather, grandmother and father (small child) crossed from Ostberlin to Westberlin via S-bahn while unofficially leaving Poland "on vacation". Apparently there were some of these big guys who got on the train remarking about amount of luggage on the rack larger than normal for cross-town commuters, but nobody in the train answered them, und so, family stayed in Spandau for a while and applied for/obtained asylum in BRD


The border was not strickly enforced until 1961. Million of Easterners fleed communism in 1946-1961.


----------



## sponge_bob

Fatfield said:


> There are no controls on people between the UK & Ireland.


There are actually, people may have a visa allowing them a UK or an Ireland work permit but that will not allow them to travel to the other. 

If a Zimbabwean in Dublin wanted to meet a Zimbabwean in London the best way for them to do it is for both to travel to Belfast which is the only _really_ common area.


----------



## Fatfield

sponge_bob said:


> There are actually, people may have a visa allowing them a UK or an Ireland work permit but that will not allow them to travel to the other.
> 
> If a Zimbabwean in Dublin wanted to meet a Zimbabwean in London the best way for them to do it is for both to travel to Belfast which is the only _really_ common area.


If a Rhodesian wanted to travel from Dublin to Belfast there's nothing stopping him/her from doing so once they've arrived in Ireland. Also if a Rhodesian wanted to travel from London to Dublin he/she could do so via Belfast. There are no controls on the movement of people between the UK & Ireland along the land border.

The only _controls_ are by air & sea. And from experience, that's the same all over Europe never mind the rest of the world.

Besides, your analogy is flawed. Said Rhodesian would have the same problems travelling from one country to another (excluding other African countries). They can't even go to South Africa without a visa.


----------



## Eulanthe

tripleaxl said:


> For East Germans - yes. Thus, they were not permitted to go there.


Wasn't just East Germans, but anyone from socialist countries. 

Actually, in theory, there was nothing stopping people from the East going to West Berlin or any Western country. The problem was that they were only issued passports valid for fellow socialist countries - to get a passport valid for "all countries in the world" was more difficult. 

East German border guards (like others) would obviously refuse exit to anyone who didn't have the correct passport. But someone with the correct passport had no problems with leaving East Berlin. 

Yugoslavia had a creative way to make money from border crossers if I remember rightly - when inflation started to run away in the 80's, you had to deposit a set amount of dinars at the border. You would get the money back in a year, but only the amount you deposited - meaning that you could have potentially lost 25% of your money to inflation in that time.


----------



## sponge_bob

Fatfield said:


> If a Rhodesian wanted to travel from Dublin to Belfast there's nothing stopping him/her from doing so once they've arrived in Ireland. Also if a Rhodesian wanted to travel from London to Dublin he/she could do so via Belfast. There are no controls on the movement of people between the UK & Ireland along the land border.


Two problems with that, these 'Rhodesians' were deprecated in 1980 and while there are no PERMANENT controls on the land border there are controls.

Not a problem for EU passport holders but non EU passport holders should be mindful that there are 2 separate entry visa regimes in place in Ireland. I have heard of people id checked on the train to Dublin and finding themselves on a boat to Wales shortly afterwards, and they were the lucky ones.


----------



## tripleaxl

Eulanthe said:


> Wasn't just East Germans, but anyone from socialist countries.
> 
> Actually, in theory, there was nothing stopping people from the East going to West Berlin or any Western country. The problem was that they were only issued passports valid for fellow socialist countries - to get a passport valid for "all countries in the world" was more difficult.
> 
> East German border guards (like others) would obviously refuse exit to anyone who didn't have the correct passport. But someone with the correct passport had no problems with leaving East Berlin.
> 
> Yugoslavia had a creative way to make money from border crossers if I remember rightly - when inflation started to run away in the 80's, you had to deposit a set amount of dinars at the border. You would get the money back in a year, but only the amount you deposited - meaning that you could have potentially lost 25% of your money to inflation in that time.


Well, then how did my relative visit West Berlin then? He said he didn't need any special visa.


----------



## Attus

Actually I know it's crazy but officially East Berlin, too, was not part of the GDR. In the 50's and early 60's there were document checks between East Berlin and the GDR (and no checks inside Berlin). Although East Berlin was officially called as "Berlin, Haupstadt der DDR" (Berlin, capital of GDR), it could not be true de iure (de facto it was true). 
Actually as Berlin was de iure, according to the relevant treaties, a city with no state borders inside, East Berlin was not any way allowed to be the part of GDR. However, after the erection of the wall (August 1961) the Soviets and the East German authorities handled East Berlin as part and capital city of GDR - and the western allies did not want to start a war because of that. 

About trains. Before the building of the wall all the trains, including local trains (S-Bahn) connected the two parts of the city without any issues. S-Bahn was operated by the East German railways until 1980 in whole Berlin (West, too). When the wall was built, all connecting rails were destroyed in a single night but one single track at Friedrichstrasse and even that was not heavily used (but of course heavily checked).


----------



## Fatfield

sponge_bob said:


> Two problems with that, these 'Rhodesians' were deprecated in 1980 and while there are no PERMANENT controls on the land border there are controls.
> 
> Not a problem for EU passport holders but non EU passport holders should be mindful that there are 2 separate entry visa regimes in place in Ireland. I have heard of people id checked on the train to Dublin and finding themselves on a boat to Wales shortly afterwards, and they were the lucky ones.


I think you're getting mixed up here. The op was assuming that because we aren't part of Shengen that there are controls on the border between the UK & Ireland. There isn't. 

And as for Wales.......will we English get to vote on your independence ;-)


----------



## sponge_bob

Fatfield said:


> The op was assuming that because we aren't part of Shengen that there are controls on the border between the UK & Ireland. There isn't.


Controls = Border Checkpoints. No.
Controls = Random Checkpoints on roads and checks on buses and trains. Yes.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Fatfield said:


> I think you're getting mixed up here. The op was assuming that because we aren't part of Shengen that there are controls on the border between the UK & Ireland. There isn't.
> 
> And as for Wales.......will we English get to vote on your independence ;-)


Who gets Gwent/Monmouthshire?


----------



## Eulanthe

tripleaxl said:


> Well, then how did my relative visit West Berlin then? He said he didn't need any special visa.


If it was before 1961, then there was a degree of freedom of movement there. Quite a lot of people lived in the East and worked in the West - such people could live very very well as a result. 

After 1961, well... difficult to say. The Berlin border was treated as an international border by the East Germans, and anyone without a passport valid for "all countries" would get nowhere near West Berlin. 



attus said:


> and the western allies did not want to start a war because of that.


Yes, the realisation that the Western Allies were happy (off the record) for East Berlin to be incorporated into the DDR did a lot to calm Soviet fears. They still protested in the usual symbolic way, but as long as they retained access rights, they weren't really bothered. 

A small fact about DDR border controls (at least immigration - don't know if they had a separate Customs service) - they were carried out by a specialised division of the DDR Border Troops. But in reality, they were all Stasi agents.


----------



## volodaaaa

I've read there had operated a bus line between Westberlin and Eastberlin. How did it work?


----------



## tripleaxl

Eulanthe said:


> If it was before 1961, then there was a degree of freedom of movement there. Quite a lot of people lived in the East and worked in the West - such people could live very very well as a result.
> 
> After 1961, well... difficult to say. The Berlin border was treated as an international border by the East Germans, and anyone without a passport valid for "all countries" would get nowhere near West Berlin.


Definitely after - sometime in the 80s I think. I don't know what the passports used to say at the time.


----------



## Alqaszar

Foreigners -- in this case all people who weren't citizens of West or East Germany or West-Berlin -- only could cross between West and East Berlin at Checkpoint Charlie. There have been other Checkpoints along the line dividing the city, but they were only available for Germans and Berliners of both sides. So foreigners were not be able to use the S-Bahn-Link to the so-called "Tränenpalast" (palace of tears) at Friedrichstraße S-Bahn-station in East Berlin.

However, there have been international trains going through West-Berlin as far as I know, which were open for all nationalities meeting respective passport and visa requirements.

Air travel to and from West-Berlin was limited to three corridors and French, British and American aircraft, as already mentioned above.

Car traffic between West Germany and West-Berlin was restricted to the "Transitstrecke". These were the Autobahns from Hannover, Bad Herfsfeld and Nürnberg as well as Federal Highway 5 from Hamburg which only in the 1980ies was repalced by the new "Transitautobahn", today's A 24.

For goods, there was a third Transit option: The waterway along the Mittellandkanal.

Trasnit rules also applied for road traffic between West-Germany, the Baltic coast, Poland and the CSSR.

West Germans were subject to the so-called "Zwangsumtausch": Each person had to buy a certain amount of Mark der DDR for their DM valuta. Of course, these "Ostmark" only could by goods that were abundant within the GDR, regarding the fact that some goods were only available through "connections" and in the Intershops -- for Western currency. People went into bookstores and bought East German editions of Geoethe's and Schiller's classic literature, which was extremeley cheap and one of the few meaningful things that could be bought für "Ostmark".

My parents, who travelled to Romania for familar reasons in the 70ies and the early eighties always came back with huge amounts of Forints and Lei, since similar laws existed in Hungary and Romania back then.

The reason behind this was that this was an easy access to hard, Western currency for the gouvernments of the Eastern Block states.

West Germans even could pay for consumer products in valuta via the Genex service, which then would be delivered to family and friends within the GDR. Mostly the products were Eastern, but some Western car models like the Citroen GS, VW Golf or Volvo 440 were part of the offer, too.

So the "innerdeutsche Grenze" ("inner-German border", how it was called in West Germany back then, stressing that the speration and hence GDR was not legitimate) was a very strict border, but with very interesting implications.


----------



## Fatfield

sponge_bob said:


> Controls = Border Checkpoints. No.
> Controls = Random Checkpoints on roads and checks on buses and trains. Yes.


That's not unique to the UK & Ireland, it happens all over Europe too.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## italystf

There was a West Berlin metro line who crossed part of East Berlin, but with no stops in it.


----------



## alserrod

Two lines indeed and with the chance of a connection between them


----------



## MattiG

Alqaszar said:


> Foreigners -- in this case all people who weren't citizens of West or East Germany or West-Berlin -- only could cross between West and East Berlin at Checkpoint Charlie. There have been other Checkpoints along the line dividing the city, but they were only available for Germans and Berliners of both sides. So foreigners were not be able to use the S-Bahn-Link to the so-called "Tränenpalast" (palace of tears) at Friedrichstraße S-Bahn-station in East Berlin.


According to various sources, the Friedrichstrasse station was available to foreigners. I have been there, too.

The basic rule was that the entry and the return had to be take place at the same border crossing point. However, this rule did not apply for the citizens of those counties having an agreement for visa-free travel with DDR. Therefore, I made my last entry to DDR at Friedrichstrasse and returned at Checkpoint Charlie.


----------



## MattiG

alserrod said:


> Two lines indeed and with the chance of a connection between them


No...

The N-S lines U6 and U8 run under East Berlin. The lines do not meet. U6 called at Friedrichstrasse having a connection to the western tracks of the S-Bahn. The U8 line did not stop at all in East Berlin.


----------



## Attus

alserrod said:


> Two lines indeed and with the chance of a connection between them


Actually it was two U-Bahn (metro) lines and the Noth-South line of the S-Bahn (commuter railways) which is in tunnel as well, so altogether 3 tunnels. There was a connection between S-Bahn and U6 in Friedrichstrasse, U8 was not connected to any other line and thus did not have any calls in East Berlin.


----------



## Corvinus

Border Feldkirch (A) / Ruggell (FL) - or, more precisely, "Swiss - Austrian border crossing Ruggell - Feldkirch in the Principality of Liechtenstein".
This border was unmanned despite daytime. Looking into Liechtenstein.
Apr 2014


----------



## Eulanthe

tripleaxl said:


> Definitely after - sometime in the 80s I think. I don't know what the passports used to say at the time.


Then, I'm sorry to say, but your relative had a reason to be there. I can't comment about how strict Bulgarians were about getting such passports, but the general rule is that the European socialist countries (excluding Yugoslavia) did not issue such passports easily. It's highly unlikely that he would have got such a passport for tourism purposes alone, unless he was already retired. 



alqasar said:


> Foreigners -- in this case all people who weren't citizens of West or East Germany or West-Berlin -- only could cross between West and East Berlin at Checkpoint Charlie. There have been other Checkpoints along the line dividing the city, but they were only available for Germans and Berliners of both sides. So foreigners were not be able to use the S-Bahn-Link to the so-called "Tränenpalast" (palace of tears) at Friedrichstraße S-Bahn-station in East Berlin.


No, that isn't quite right. Both Checkpoint Charlie (properly : GuST Fredrichstrasse) and Fredrichstrasse Bahnhof were open to foreigners. This picture from the train station explains it perfectly - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:891118_grenzuebergang_bahnhof_friedrichstrasse.jpg - you can see clearly that there's an entrance for "anderen staaten". 

Yes, the other checkpoints weren't open for foreigners (except the one going to Schoenfeld Airport), but the Tranenpalast certainly was open to them. There are numerous accounts of foreigners being intimidated by the nature of the border crossing there, which was far more oppressive than the road crossing. 

I believe that Fredrichstrasse station was also used by long distance trains, making use of the border crossing facilities there. 



> So the "innerdeutsche Grenze" ("inner-German border", how it was called in West Germany back then, stressing that the speration and hence GDR was not legitimate) was a very strict border, but with very interesting implications.


Yes, West Germany even regarded the lawful borders as being those of 1937. Much of it was just legal theory rather than any claim on Polish lands, particularly as the powerful retired CDU-voting lobby would never allow West Germany to accept the loss of the lands.

In respects to the GDR, West Germany even claimed continuity with the German Reich with the name. The Federal Republic of Germany clearly meant that there was only one Germany, whereas the German Democratic Republic made absolutely no claim to what previous German states had done. 

One problem I have with the FRG on a personal level is that they still use the Basic Law - when the intention all along was that a reunited Germany should have held an all-German referendum on a new Constitution. I understand why the East Germans feel cheated, as their country was effectively annexed by the Federal Republic in exchange for money.


----------



## Kanadzie

While it is true that they kept Basic Law, I kind of feel better than the DDR ceased to exist and the soverignty over the land was taken de facto by the BRD... it seems like every facet of that regime was corrupt, criminal, bad in every way... (okay we can accept... Spreewald pickles but anything else?) Maybe a new constitution would be more politically favorable at the end, but would take lot of time and end up with... probably 99% of the Grundgesetz anyway...


----------



## Eulanthe

Kanadzie said:


> While it is true that they kept Basic Law, I kind of feel better than the DDR ceased to exist and the soverignty over the land was taken de facto by the BRD... it seems like every facet of that regime was corrupt, criminal, bad in every way... (okay we can accept... Spreewald pickles but anything else?) Maybe a new constitution would be more politically favorable at the end, but would take lot of time and end up with... probably 99% of the Grundgesetz anyway...


But don't forget that the GDR from March 1990 onwards was democratically elected. I don't think it's any secret that Kohl and the CDU more or less flooded the GDR with cash in order to secure rapid unification.


----------



## Kanadzie

That's correct, but BRD was basically bribing GDR with cash from the beginning for various reasons. But that "exchange Ostmark for DM at par", that was just crazy :lol:


----------



## Gnurr

Snapped som photos of border stations on a road trip earlier this month.

Albania to Kosovo on the road between Kukës and Prizren. This is the station on the Kosovo side.










Bosnia-Herzegovina to Montenegro on the road between Trebinje and Herceg Novi. This is obviously the station on the Montenegro side.


----------



## italystf

Kanadzie said:


> While it is true that they kept Basic Law, I kind of feel better than the DDR ceased to exist and the soverignty over the land was taken de facto by the BRD... it seems like every facet of that regime was corrupt, criminal, bad in every way... (okay we can accept... Spreewald pickles but anything else?) Maybe a new constitution would be more politically favorable at the end, but would take lot of time and end up with... probably 99% of the Grundgesetz anyway...


Those Germans are weird, they think that it's still a taboo to talk about the nazi past, still consider the reading of _Maine Kampf_ a criminal offence and forbid you to have HH or NS on your car plate because it may reminds something. Every pair of letter has hundreds of possible meanings, hasn't it?
On the other hand, they openly accept the _Ostalgie_ and in Berlin you easily see souvenirs with the hammer and sickle. Ok, Hitler killed dozens of millions people in the whole continent, the DDR regime probably few thousands. But those events are quite recent and many people who suffered those horrors are still alive. I've read few stuff about the Stasi and the DDR just as curiosity and they did terrible things, like people spyied by their relatives, political prisoners tortured and killed in prison, people used for medical experiments, people contaminated with radioactive material to track them, people shooted because they tried to escape... I don't see why this dark period could be seen in a "romantic" way like in the movie _Goodbye Lenin_.


----------



## JackFrost

^^true. the murdered people wouldnt give a damn if nazism or communism killed them. both "ideas" were horrible. however, i sometimes have a feeling too, that one idea is considered less horrible. anyway, sorry for being offtopic here.



italystf said:


> a criminal offence and forbid you to have HH.


HH stands for Hansa Hamburg, and is well used in Germany. My father had such plates when we lived in Hamburg.


----------



## Attus

Jack_Frost said:


> HH stands for Hansa Hamburg, and is well used in Germany. My father had such plates when we lived in Hamburg.


Actually it's _Hansestadt Hamburg_, but basically you're right, lots of cars have HH in their license plate.


----------



## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> I believe that Fredrichstrasse station was also used by long distance trains, making use of the border crossing facilities there.


True.

My home library contains the international timetables of Deutsche Reichsbahn from the summer 1979. I scanned one page here (sorry about the size, it would be not readable if I shrunk it further):










The text shows that the passport and customs control took place at Berlin-Friedrichstrasse. In addition, it states that travelling between Berlin-Ostbahnhof and Berlin-Friedrichstrasse was only allowed to those making a transit trip through DDR.


----------



## Corvinus

Drávaszabolcs (H) -> Donji Miholjac/Alsó Miholjác (HR) crossing
April 2014

1. Approaching the border on Main Road 58









2. 









3.









4. With Croatia in the EU, no customs controls, but since this is a Schengen external borde, your ID is checked by both H and HR police.









5. Bridge over Dráva river, actual border is at the middle of it









6. Approaching Croatian booths ...









7. ... and we're in!


----------



## LMB

italystf said:


> There was a West Berlin metro line who crossed part of East Berlin, but with no stops in it.


I knew a Pole who lived in East Berlin for some time. This wasn't so usual (West Berlin - yes, East - why?), so I asked him about it. 

Turns out DDR didn't employ ANY local eastern Germans for the maintenance of their single only metro line. I guess there must have been technical tunnels/connections between lines 5 (the line in East Berlin), and the passing West Berlin line 2 you mention, so it was apparently already too risky to let the DDR folks anywhere near it, in fear of them "voting with feet".


----------



## snt3000

Interesting video about the "the longest deforested straight line in the world" that marks the border between Canada and the US.

*'Don't Touch Me,' Said Canada. 'I Won't!' Said The U.S.A. So They Moved 20 Feet Apart
*
http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2...e-usa-so-they-moved-20-feet-apart?ft=1&f=1001


----------



## keokiracer

^ CGPGrey has a lot of good videos :yes:


----------



## cinxxx

Crossing from Italy into San Marino...


San Marino von cinxxx auf Flickr


San Marino von cinxxx auf Flickr


San Marino von cinxxx auf Flickr


----------



## Alex_ZR

cinxxx said:


> I should arrive in Timisoara on 30th of May, that is a Saturday.
> I will do my best to do a drive to the tripoint next day, on Sunday.
> 
> Maybe some people here fancy an international SSC meeting?


I'm afraid you are wrong. Last weekend of May this year would be 24th and 25th of May. 30th of May is Friday. So, you will be late for the tripoint... :grumpy:


----------



## JackFrost

Alex_ZR said:


> Have you ever been to Vojvodina?


sure

http://www.humanrightscenter.net/atrocitasok/kepek/2013/utabla1.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--1O0VANjAYU/T-VOZcKc9BI/AAAAAAAADWA/EUB32v4WYXs/s1600/02C.jpg
http://www.humanrightscenter.net/atrocitasok/kepek/2013/temerin.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...mc1cE54bzKM7z83CcCv-lvw1dB_39-OGG3EZx8toGCrZA
http://archiv.magyarszo.com/arhiva/2006/06/30/images/10_nagybecskerek_tabla.jpg

etc

not even our own braindead radicals do that with minorities in Hungary.


----------



## cinxxx

^^
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=549233048530160&id=516724458447686




























Alex_ZR said:


> I'm afraid you are wrong. Last weekend of May this year would be 24th and 25th of May. 30th of May is Friday. So, you will be late for the tripoint... :grumpy:


Ah, fudge 
I knew it's a Saturday when I will arrive, it's the 31st actually.

It's the 4th time in a row I miss the festivity...


----------



## HRHB

Edit: 
Found on Google Street View the border GP Cafuti (HR - SLO, HR side) which I think was the old border before Macelj - Gruškovje was built on A2 Macelj - Zagreb. However today it can only be used by locals. I think Verso knows more about it


----------



## x-type

nestvaran said:


> Is this BiH or CRO side?


that's joined border crossing. no HR or BIH side there.


----------



## nestvaran

x-type said:


> that's joined border crossing. no HR or BIH side there.


Are you sure? Ever crossed it?

Ja sam bio ubjeđen da postoje dva odvojena GP-a.


----------



## HRHB

nestvaran said:


> Are you sure? Ever crossed it?
> 
> Ja sam bio ubjeđen da postoje dva odvojena GP-a.


I also thought so, I mean on BiH side it's called Bijača and on HR side Nova Sela but I don't know if this is a reason that this border isn't a joined BC.

Edit:
Source: klix.ba
I think there are two sides but the police is working together



> Kontakt centar se otvara na osnovu Protokola potpisanog između Granične policije BiH i Ravnateljstva policije Ministarstva unutarnjih poslova Republike Hrvatske o osnivanju Zajedničkog kontakt centra na graničnom prijelazu Bijača (u BiH) – Nova Sela ( u R. Hrvatskoj) u martu 2013. godine. Kontakt centar Bijača - Nova Sela u kojem će zajedno raditi pripadnici Granične policije BiH i MUP-a R. Hrvatske se uspostavlja u cilju analiziranja i razmjene informacija...


----------



## Verso

Corvinus said:


> Rather _cellar _than basement (at least not basement in the sense of "ground floor").


Oh, I thought it meant both; in Slovenian both are called "klet". And yes, everything is bilingual, except commercials, which are sometimes or usually only in Slovenian, because companies can't be bothered to translate them.


----------



## x-type

nestvaran said:


> Are you sure? Ever crossed it?
> 
> Ja sam bio ubjeđen da postoje dva odvojena GP-a.





HRHB said:


> I also thought so, I mean on BiH side it's called Bijača and on HR side Nova Sela but I don't know if this is a reason that this border isn't a joined BC.


sorry, i was sure it was joined, but it seems that it isn't. try to search a bit, this is obviously HR side considering the design.
here is BIH side: http://youtu.be/7icBQ7fC8ho?t=1m55s

it has different roof construction and grey booths instead of Croatian blue.


----------



## HRHB

x-type said:


> sorry, i was sure it was joined, but it seems that it isn't. try to search a bit, this is obviously HR side considering the design.
> here is BIH side: http://youtu.be/7icBQ7fC8ho?t=1m55s
> 
> it has different roof construction and grey booths instead of Croatian blue.


Look at my edited post, you were partially right. The police is working together.


----------



## x-type

HRHB said:


> Look at my edited post, you were partially right. The police is working together.


but there obviously are double booths.


----------



## HRHB

x-type said:


> but there obviously are double booths.


Yes, you're right.


----------



## nestvaran

x-type said:


> sorry, i was sure it was joined, but it seems that it isn't. try to search a bit, this is obviously HR side considering the design.
> here is BIH side: http://youtu.be/7icBQ7fC8ho?t=1m55s
> 
> it has different roof construction and grey booths instead of Croatian blue.


Considering that video, are there any pics/videos of finished Bijača checkpoint? I've done some research and the best what I could find was this particular video, but it was recorded while the construction was still in progress.


----------



## cinxxx

^^I'm planning to cross there driving from Split to Mostar


----------



## HRHB

cinxxx said:


> ^^I'm planning to cross there driving from Split to Mostar


It's the best route you can choose I think. Or maybe it's over Imotski and GP Vinjani donji


----------



## x-type

nestvaran said:


> Considering that video, are there any pics/videos of finished Bijača checkpoint? I've done some research and the best what I could find was this particular video, but it was recorded while the construction was still in progress.


actually it was already opened at video, but you can hear that there was much work left to be done. really few photos are available at google images.


----------



## HRHB

GP Zaton Doli (HR) - Neum "2" (BiH) on HR side

Source: dnevnik.hr


----------



## Corvinus

Alex_ZR said:


> Have you ever been to Vojvodina?


Yes, but only back in Yugo times and only as drive-thru passenger. 
I know the Vojvodina autonomous region has more or less consistent Hungarian signage comparable to the Slovenian Murska Sobota/Muraszombat region. The sprayers, though, are a problem.

What I don't really get is why Croatia is rather reluctant on minority-language signage. I have not seen a single town name signposted in Hungarian _in vivo_ (only on photos submitted by others). 

Another Yugo border: Petišovci/Petesháza (SLO) -> Mursko Središće/Muraszerdahely (HR)
Pics taken: April 2014

1.









2. No customs anymore, only _policija_. SLO and HR police officers were sharing the SLO side booths, HR booths were deserted.


----------



## Verso

Corvinus said:


> I know the Vojvodina autonomous region has more or less consistent Hungarian signage comparable to the Slovenian Murska Sobota/Muraszombat region.


Murska Sobota isn't bilingual, unless you meant Prekmurje/Muravidék.


----------



## HRHB

Verso said:


> Murska Sobota isn't bilingual, unless you meant Prekmurje/Muravidék.


From the croatian Wiki 



> Murska Sobota(mađarski: Muraszombat, njemački: Olsnitz, prekomurski: Mürska Sobota) je grad i središte istoimene općine u sjevernoj Sloveniji.


----------



## cinxxx

Exiting San Marino at Gualdicciolo...


RSM-Gualdicciolo / ITA-Torello von cinxxx auf Flickr


----------



## Verso

HRHB said:


> From the croatian Wiki


Yes, but that doesn't mean there are signs in Slovenian, Hungarian, German and... well, Prekmurian.


----------



## HRHB

Verso said:


> Yes, but that doesn't mean there are signs in Slovenian, Hungarian, German and... well, Prekmurian.


Ups, I thought you mean they don't have hungarian, german... names. Sorry my fault


----------



## Singidunum

Jack_Frost said:


> not even our own braindead radicals do that with minorities in Hungary.


Of course they do, this is what 0.5% minorities who are not tied to any trouble are facing http://www.rts.rs/upload/storyBoxImageData/2012/10/26/10841174/Pesta-crkva.jpg http://bktvnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/sent-andreja-grafiti.jpg http://novitalas.com/wp-content/upl...ovokacije-protiv-Srba-u-Mađarskoj-470x352.jpg , so let's not even mention Roma and Jews as it is widely reported what treatment they are getting. Braindead radicals are braindead radicals, not matter where they live. What is important is the response of the community https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=549233048530160&id=516724458447686 http://lsv.rs/vesti/odbori-lsv/na-ulazu-u-zrenjanin-ponovo-se-vidi-natpis-nagybecskerek-10254/ http://www.vesti-online.com/Vesti/Srbija/328344/LSV-ocistio-madarski-i-slovacki-Novi-Sad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2QsziL7B1w, and it's consistently good in Serbia and that's the only thing that matters. There will always be morons with spray, that will never change.


----------



## nbcee

Sadly Singi is right: Braindead radicals are braindead radicals, not matter where they live. I'm strongly against harrassing minorities in any way - let the perpetrators be Hungarians, Serbs, Indonesians, Bolivians or anyone else. Note that many times these people have a tit-for-tat attitude which leads to nowhere.


----------



## cinxxx




----------



## Alex_ZR

Here's mine San Marino visa from 2007:










Fees are rising...


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Mazel tov, but why does the Republic of San Marino have a crown in its coat of arms?


----------



## volodaaaa

cinxxx said:


>


How come did you get the stamp?  I was there before Lichtenstein joined Schengenland and got nothing.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Mazel tov, but why does the Republic of San Marino have a crown in its coat of arms?





> The components of the coat of arms are in detail:
> 
> * In the blue shield there are three green mountains with three silver towers, each decorated with a weather vane consisting of a silver ostrich feather. The towers symbolize the three citadels of San Marino (La Guaita, La Cesta and La Montale), while the hills represent the three summits of the Monte Titano.
> 
> * The motto "LIBERTAS" (Lat. freedom). It possibly refers to the taking in of victims of political persecution in the earlier years of San Marino, and to the amazing maintenance of independence in the midst of many larger states. The motto could also have developed from the alleged last words of the founder Marinu "Relinquo vos liberos ab utroque homine" (Lat. "I leave you free from both men").[3]
> * An oak and laurel branch, which surrounds the coat of arms are symbols for the stability of the republic and the defense of the liberty.
> * *A crown, which serves as symbol of sovereignty.*


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_San_Marino

Similar is for other European countries which are republics but have crown in their CoA (most of them are former monarchies).


----------



## cinxxx

@Alex_ZR: Your stamp is was cheaper but seems nicer...



volodaaaa said:


> How come did you get the stamp?  I was there before Lichtenstein joined Schengenland and got nothing.


You just go to the tourist info in Vaduz or Balzers.
I got mine after they joined Schengen.


----------



## macxp

*POLAND/CZECH REPUBLIC
(PL) Paczków/Bílý Potok (CZ)*


----------



## macxp

*POLAND/CZECH REPUBLIC
(PL) Lutynia/Travná (CZ)
*

Czech side.






Polish side.


----------



## LMB

macxp said:


> *POLAND/CZECH REPUBLIC
> (PL) Paczków/Bílý Potok (CZ)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Things are changing... Polish sign with Czech state symbol.


----------



## volodaaaa

LMB said:


> macxp said:
> 
> 
> 
> *POLAND/CZECH REPUBLIC
> (PL) Paczków/Bílý Potok (CZ)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Things are changing... Polish sign with Czech state symbol.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice one :lol:
Click to expand...


----------



## Verso

Same as this Italian sign for Slovenia, but without the coat of arms.


----------



## volodaaaa

Verso said:


> Same as this Italian sign for Slovenia, but without the coat of arms.


In Slovakia written in Slovak font (Universal Grotesk) but in Austrian Language


----------



## Alex_ZR

volodaaaa said:


> In Slovakia written in Slovak font (Universal Grotesk) but in *Austrian Language*


:naughty:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

So volodaaaa is actually president Obama


----------



## Verso

^^ 1440p HD? Not bad.


----------



## cinxxx

I've gotten waved through by the Slovene border police today, while crossing from Croatia at Macelj.
There was quite a big queue, I handed our passports/ID (3 persons in the car), the guy just waved us through 

Check was not done by the 2 countries together, but each on their side. The Croatian looked at our passports/ID pretty quick.

When I got in Croatia on 2nd of May at Obrežje, the Slovene also wanted to see car papers, the Croat lady just looked on our IDs quickly.
This time the check was done at the same place, just some meters apart.


----------



## Corvinus

Goričan/Muracsány (HR) -> Letenye (H) motorway crossing
Pics taken April 2014

1. "Carina" (customs) sign not yet removed ...









2. 









3. 10 mins of waiting time to enter Hungary. Not because of the Czech motorhome, but the car in front of it ... with Asian passengers. It was ultimately requested to pull over, then traffic behind it was processed quickly.


----------



## Eulanthe

Macelj/Gruskovje won't be a joint control, as they agreed to only implement joint controls if the traffic builds up too much. I'm not sure why, but it might be for technical reasons related to working space. 

What's strange about the HR jjoint controls is that they were supposed to be 'one stop', but it's normally two stops.


----------



## cinxxx

^^
I found the RO-HU check with one stop, but also with 2 stops, just a few meters apart.
Dunno, I guess it depends on their mood. Sometimes the RO guy sits in the hut, while the Hungarian are outside, other times they both stay outside together.


----------



## darko06

As far as I know, at SLO HR borders there are usually two stops, because Croatian Immigration officers are regularly operated from booths where former was placed the Slovenian Custom service. Sometimes they stay outside together and jointly controlled passengers. However, at Gruškovje/Macelj they are in their booths at each side of the border.
Question is, why this border crossing cannot be arranged as others?


----------



## Palance

Border crossing Šula (MNE) - Vitinica (BIH). Some dirt road in the mountains, but still a border crossing


----------



## Eulanthe

darko06 said:


> As far as I know, at SLO HR borders there are usually two stops, because Croatian Immigration officers are regularly operated from booths where former was placed the Slovenian Custom service. Sometimes they stay outside together and jointly controlled passengers. However, at Gruškovje/Macelj they are in their booths at each side of the border.
> Question is, why this border crossing cannot be arranged as others?


Yes, it's weird that the SLO and HR police authorities didn't get them to work side by side in some cases. I noticed that at the smaller locals-only border crossings, they tend to work together - but not at the so called 'international' and 'interstate' crossings. 

I know when Poland joined the EU, the German and Polish border police were ordered to work side by side outside rather than sitting inside. 

I have a feeling that Gruskovje/Macelj may be because there isn't the accommodation for the Croatian guards. The Slovenian Customs authorities will probably still be based at Gruskovje in order to conduct random checks, same with the Croatian authorities at Macelj. 

It does make a mockery of the whole one stop concept though - the Slovenian/Croatian Carina were rarely interested in stopping anyone before July last year, so two stops has remained two stops, just on one side of the border. 

^^ locals only, or international? I'd love a stamp from there...


----------



## Penn's Woods

We were just talking about the U.S./Canada border in the Canadian thread, but this two-stops issue doesn't even come up there. You just deal with customs officials of the country you're entering. What's with this exit control?


----------



## stickedy

Palance said:


> Border crossing Šula (MNE) - Vitinica (BIH). Some dirt road in the mountains, but still a border crossing


That's great, it must be somewehere there: https://www.google.de/maps/@43.3966134,19.0374364,14z

OSM: http://osm.org/go/xfPFPquR-

Is it open also for non-locals?


----------



## f.ostman

I visited Andorra a few weeks ago and noticed that they use the blue EU-style border signs with stars and the county name (in this case ANDORRA) written in the middle. Why is that? Andorra isn't an EU member.


----------



## Kemo

New border bridge Piwniczna (PL) - Mníšek nad Popradom (SK)

Photos by *esce*

Slovak side:




































International border on river Poprad









View from Polish side:


----------



## khawa

f.ostman said:


> I visited Andorra a few weeks ago and noticed that they use the blue EU-style border signs with stars and the county name (in this case ANDORRA) written in the middle. Why is that? Andorra isn't an EU member.


The yellow stars on blue background are a symbol of the Council of Europe, which Andorra joined on November 10, 1994.


----------



## stickedy

f.ostman said:


> I visited Andorra a few weeks ago and noticed that they use the blue EU-style border signs with stars and the county name (in this case ANDORRA) written in the middle. Why is that? Andorra isn't an EU member.


They do that since approx. 20 years. Why shouldn't they? The sign itself has no copyright


----------



## ChrisZwolle

khawa said:


> The yellow stars on blue background are a symbol of the Council of Europe, which Andorra joined on November 10, 1994.


The Council of Europe also includes non-EU member states;

* Norway (founding member)
* Turkey
* Iceland
* Switzerland
* Liechtenstein
* Albania
* Moldova
* Macedonia
* Ukraine
* Russia
* Georgia
* Armenia
* Azerbaijan
* Bosnia and Herzegovina
* Serbia
* Montenegro

People often mistake it for being a "wannabe EU member state".


----------



## f.ostman

khawa said:


> The yellow stars on blue background are a symbol of the Council of Europe, which Andorra joined on November 10, 1994.


Thanks!


----------



## Penn's Woods

stickedy said:


> They do that since approx. 20 years. Why shouldn't they? The sign itself has no copyright


They stole the circle of stars from the original 13-star U.S. flag anyway. :troll: (Joking. I have no idea whether that's true or not.)


----------



## Skyline_

Penn's Woods said:


> They stole the circle of stars from the original 13-star U.S. flag anyway. :troll: (Joking. I have no idea whether that's true or not.)


Maybe the U.S. flag was an inspiration... who knows for sure?


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Could well have been. But it's not copyrighted either, I'd guess. :cheers:


----------



## Skyline_

Copyright laws do not apply to flags I think... I am not sure though.

Anyway, what matters is this: I cross the borders from Greece to Bulgaria in 5 seconds while you need at least a few minutes to cross from the USA to Canada or Mexico. 
Insert troll face...


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^At a quiet crossing it might be faster. And there are no exit checks. I still don't know what's with these exit checks. Seems very pre-1989.


----------



## Skyline_

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^At a quiet crossing it might be faster. And there are no exit checks. I still don't know what's with these exit checks. Seems very pre-1989.


There are no exit checks around here. There is one check only and that's on the Greek side. The other border station is out of duty, permanently. Pretty soon, there won't be any check at all. Bulgaria is waiting for Schengen Area Status to be activated. :banana: Border crossing at 60 mph will be doable then!


----------



## volodaaaa

Skyline_ said:


> Copyright laws do not apply to flags I think... I am not sure though.
> 
> Anyway, what matters is this: I cross the borders from Greece to Bulgaria in 5 seconds while you need at least a few minutes to cross from the USA to Canada or Mexico.
> Insert troll face...


It seems that situation has changed. I remember times when Bulgarian checked me three times and I had to drive through disinfection pit hno:


----------



## Palance

Why should a country not do exit-checks?

For example: You could prevent people leaving the country when they are not allowed to do so.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^How many people is, say, Croatia prohibiting from leaving? Enough to justify a second stop at every border (for, what, checking ID cards?)

I'm just asking a question. Because every controlled border I've ever crossed (in North America or pre-Schengen western Europe) I've never had to deal with customs except for the country I was going into....


----------



## Palance

There can be more reasons to check. Checking if fines have been paid for example (When I left the UAE some years ago I was told that it was one of the reasons to check every person). It is a well-known fact that people leaving from NL by plane to a non-Schengencountry are checked at the airport for fines.

I don't know how many people are not allowed to leave the country, but there can be many reasons for it (like a police investigation). Or trying to kidnap a child.


----------



## Corvinus

When crossing from Schengen Hungary into Croatia right now in 2014, the _Hungarian _police officer (who did the exit check) ordered us to open the boot. 
Dunno why, but they had a lot of time for the checks, we were the only vehicle in a quarter of an hour. 

Officials in Croatia did not ask anything ...


----------



## Eulanthe

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^How many people is, say, Croatia prohibiting from leaving? Enough to justify a second stop at every border (for, what, checking ID cards?)
> 
> I'm just asking a question. Because every controlled border I've ever crossed (in North America or pre-Schengen western Europe) I've never had to deal with customs except for the country I was going into....


Exit controls are obligatory upon leaving Schengen. Exit controls to fellow EU member states tend to be light, but external EU exit controls are usually quite tough. I had a hell of a time explaining to the Polish border guards that the car was mine but registered in my father in law's name, for instance. 

The 'exit' stop on the Croatian/Slovenian border tends to be very laid back. I've crossed the border at 2am in one of the many divided towns and the Croatians couldn't have cared less. They were amused when I returned a few minutes later complaining about how there was nothing to do in Slovenia at 2am. 

Slovenia is still conducting proper checks on occasion. Last time I went, they conducted a full control upon exit in Rogatec. They seem to routinely scan passports, too. 

Don't forget that exit controls are also there to catch anyone that might have overstayed the length of their legal stay. It might seem like it's just a glance at the passport, but these controls do have a purpose.

And yes, on the Croatian border, it seems that exit controls from Schengen are being enforced fairly severely at times. I suppose if someone wanted to push it, they could refuse to open the boot as it's simply an identity control and not a customs control.


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> The 'exit' stop on the Croatian/Slovenian border tends to be very laid back. I've crossed the border at 2am in one of the many divided towns and the Croatians couldn't have cared less. They were amused when I returned a few minutes later complaining about how there was nothing to do in Slovenia at 2am.


Villages usually sleep at 2 am. :lol:


----------



## Verso

Bridge over Mur(a) between Gornja Radgona (SLO) and Bad Radkersburg (A):









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/35031678


----------



## Kanadzie

Penn's Woods said:


> We were just talking about the U.S./Canada border in the Canadian thread, but this two-stops issue doesn't even come up there. You just deal with customs officials of the country you're entering. What's with this exit control?


It's a strange and highly offensive practice they have for a reason I can't understand. It's a Schengen requirement, but it feels so very very dirty to have to report to _exit_. I'm surprised the "new Europe" countries don't complain more about it...



Palance said:


> Why should a country not do exit-checks?
> *
> For example: You could prevent people leaving the country when they are not allowed to do so.*


This strikes me as a _bad_ thing...


----------



## Broccolli

Eulanthe said:


> The 'exit' stop on the Croatian/Slovenian border tends to be very laid back. I've crossed the border *at 2am* in one of the many divided towns and the Croatians couldn't have cared less. *They were amused* when I *returned a few minutes later* *complaining about how there was nothing to do in Slovenia at 2am.*



Amused?
Probably they were thinking...jeez what a weirdo :lol:


----------



## stickedy

I don't know of any country in Europe outside of Schengen area which doesn't control people leaving the country. That's a common thing. But most times the checks are rather let's say relaxed.


----------



## italystf

What's wrong with exit checks? In Italy a judge can forbid a criminal in semi-freedom status to leave the country, because it may flee to avoid the trial in Italy. They cannot even travel to other Schengen country.
Few months ago, Raffaele Sollecito, the protagonist of a famous murder case in Italy, was arrested in Austria while he was on holiday with his girlfriend and deported back to Italy.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^I love it when it's the Europeans' turn to be defensive about something they do in the individual-rights area. :troll:

Seriously, I was just surprised, that's all, because I had never heard of any non-Communist country doing that. But there are other ways of preventing baddies from leaving than stopping everyone, surely.


----------



## Verso

^^ Why do you always have to present everything as US v. EU?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Oh, please. That never, ever happens in the other direction around here. Never. 

I WAS JOKING. I found the "What's wrong with...?" amusing. Because I'm often being told (and often by italystf) exactly and at great length (and with a certain degree of exaggeration) what's wrong with everything from the electoral college to our excessive degree of freedom of expression.

Now can we please not start a flame war. Or, verso, accuse me of overreacting and then collecting likes. You know the French expression "deux poids, deux mesures" ?

:cheers:


----------



## Suburbanist

I once had my car checked extensively (including sniffing dogs) at the Andorran-Spanish border. It was an Italian car. They first looked at my bags, then spotted mountain gear clothing, then thought I might have bought hunting firearms (!) and checked the car.

It was very windy and the border guards were going through all the compartments in the car.


----------



## Verso

Penn's Woods said:


> Or, verso, accuse me of overreacting and then collecting likes.


One can never have too many likes.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Good lucking hiding an AR-15 in the glove compartment


----------



## Reivajar

Suburbanist said:


> I once had my car checked extensively (including sniffing dogs) at the Andorran-Spanish border. It was an Italian car. They first looked at my bags, then spotted mountain gear clothing, then thought I might have bought hunting firearms (!) and checked the car.
> 
> It was very windy and the border guards were going through all the compartments in the car.


Where was it? In the Spanish covered customs?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Verso said:


> One can never have too many likes.


Chris has a nice round number at the moment.

:cheers:


----------



## stickedy

Penn's Woods said:


> Seriously, I was just surprised, that's all, because I had never heard of any non-Communist country doing that. But there are other ways of preventing baddies from leaving than stopping everyone, surely.


Yes, it's a bit odd. And as I said, the border police in general is the same opinion as you and me  The controls are normally very relaxed and most times they just wave you through - with an bored expression in the face...


----------



## DanielFigFoz

stickedy said:


> I don't know of any country in Europe outside of Schengen area which doesn't control people leaving the country. That's a common thing. But most times the checks are rather let's say relaxed.


The UK doesn't have exit checks (most of the time), and I guess Ireland doesn't, but I've only exited Ireland once to somewhere not in the Common Travel Area


----------



## Road_UK

UK have been doing a lot of exit checks at the Port of Dover lately. And at the Port of Holyhead it's common practice. The French do exit checks at the ports of Calais and Dunkerque all the time.


----------



## Suburbanist

Reivajar said:


> Where was it? In the Spanish covered customs?


Yes, right there!

I had left Andorra-la-Vella very early!

That day, I did a very circuitous day-long drive: http://goo.gl/maps/LHL12


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> Yes, right there!
> 
> I had left Andorra-la-Vella very early!
> 
> That day, I did a very circuitous day-long drive: http://goo.gl/maps/LHL12


Wow... a quite long mountain passes circuit over the Pyrenees.

Normal checks are... almost always.
Exhaustive checks are barely done but they exists.

They are really do not worried on passports but on goods. Sometimes they can have a spy who says that a car is carrying goods and they will check several ones, or they just have enough time.


Due to taxes, importing goods from Andorra is quite controlled.

They apply some rules such as:
- If you are moving from Andorra to Spain you can move all furniture and goods of your home providing several situations but someone from the embassy have to accept which things are duty free to entry in Spain
- If a person living in Andorra is invited to a wedding in Spain and wanna make a present, it will be duty free too but he must declare several things 

They are just two laws, there are many, many ones more...


----------



## Reivajar

^^ I am not sure, but I think in the Andorran-French border controls are much weaker...


----------



## alserrod

No, they are random ones and they are not always made on the customs but on the road. If you have crossed the customs and haven't declared anything... you can be stopped anywhere.

But, let's remember there is more traffic through Spain because it is "valley down". Going to France means several tunnels


----------



## csd

stickedy said:


> I don't know of any country in Europe outside of Schengen area which doesn't control people leaving the country. That's a common thing. But most times the checks are rather let's say relaxed.


Ireland is a European country outside Schengen that does _not_ do exit checks! The only identity checks are done on arrival.

/csd


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Road_UK said:


> UK have been doing a lot of exit checks at the Port of Dover lately. And at the Port of Holyhead it's common practice. The French do exit checks at the ports of Calais and Dunkerque all the time.


The French do exit checks everywhere with border control don't they?

And I have been stopped at Holyhead, but they didn't ask for ID, the lady wanted to see inside my boot.


----------



## verreme

Border crossing between Spain and France in the binational borough of Els Límits/Le Perthus. Part of the road through the village is binational: the carriageway and the left sidewalk are in France, whilst the right one is in Spain. There are both Spanish and France parking meters in the town and signs clearly stating that they are only valid in one country.

There's also a pink elephant coming out of a wall


----------



## bogdymol

How were things going on here before Schengen?


----------



## Mirror's Edge

Small crossing on the Sweden / Norway border, I would say it's a typical border situation where somewhat inhabited areas are close to the border in Norway while on the Swedish side it's usually an hour or two of nothing.

*Actual crossing towards the end of the video.*


----------



## alserrod

bogdymol said:


> How were things going on here before Schengen?


No buildings after customs. They are pretty close to real border.

By the way, why all the video is with titles in English except Crown of Aragon?


----------



## Quilavoce

^^

You mean that street didn't exist before?


----------



## Reivajar

I thought Els Limits (the Spanish part of the international town) was started to be urbanised in the 1960's after the burying of the stream which was set as border between Spain and France in the second half of the 19th century (_còrrec de la Comtessa_ in Catalan, _arroyo de la Condesa_ in Spanish, _ruisseau de la Comtesse_ in French; calle del Correc on the map).

Le Perthus (the French part of the international town) isn't either a really old town, and it was founded mostly based on the customs officers built along the road at the end of the 19th century and beginnings of the 20th century.










Actually, the oldest part of the international town was the road, and the, along the road firstly the western part started to be built as a French town, and later, in 1960's in the Eastern part as a Spanish town, but as the communication was based on the road, actually the Spanish town was on the other side of the French customs. The point is that the border was traced along the stream, and the road was traced paralel to that stream, so actuall the road was the border giving access as well to the Spanish part even if it was on the French side.

Actually, as seen on the video there is a road (or street) built later to avoid the French customs to get direct access to Els Limits from the Spanish territory (it is the current Carrer Dr. Subiros)

The oldest structure in the town is actually the Bellegarde Fort.


----------



## Reivajar

Another interesting landmark on the area is the original roman road and the pass used in the Antiquity. The *original road* and pass used was not the current N-II and D-900 in Le Perthus and Els Límits, but it was extremely close, on the other side of the Bellegarde fort.

The original border was in the *Panissars pass*. Romans marked the limit *between Gaul and Hispania*, and the link between de _Via Domitia_ (coming from the Alps through Southeastern Gaul) and the _Via Augusta_ (which reached Cádiz in Southern Hispania). As usual, the Romans, to celebrate the victories in Hispania, built a monument in the _Summum Pyrenaeum_, the Pompey's Trophies (and in French)

In the Middle Ages the place was occupied by a church, and furthermore its stones were reused for other constructions.

During the Middle Ages, firstly the Catalan Counties, later the Crown of Aragon and finally Spain from the 15th century dominated both sides of the mountains in this area, and approximately the current Pyrénées-Orientales department was part of Spain. After the Treaty of the Pyrenees in the 17th century Spain and France modified the borders in this area, and the argument used by France for moving the Spanish-French border to the Pyrenees was actually (well, it was the historical and rational reason, for sure there was the stronger military one, xD) was the original border established by the Romans between Gaul and Hispania.

So, it can be considered the first stage of this international border.


----------



## verreme

^^ Thanks for the information. I'll try to visit Panissars ruins, I hope I have the time one day.



alserrod said:


> No buildings after customs. They are pretty close to real border.
> 
> By the way, why all the video is with titles in English except Crown of Aragon?


I didn't know there was an exonym. Thanks for pointing it out.


----------



## AllyMac

With Scotland looking more and more likely to be Europe's newest independent state, it's so nice seeing all the pictures of border crossings around the world. The British are coming out with all manner of ridiculous statements about armed guards and electric fences on the Scottish border with England, so it's good to show them what it's actually like in the real world!


----------



## El Tiburon

AllyMac said:


> With Scotland looking more and more likely to be Europe's newest independent state, it's so nice seeing all the pictures of border crossings around the world. The British are coming out with all manner of ridiculous statements about armed guards and electric fences on the Scottish border with England, so it's good to show them what it's actually like in the real world!


It will probably be like the Republic of Ireland-Northern Ireland border that's almost unnoticeable except for the speed limit and county signs.

In case of independence, will Scotland become a kingdom, a republic or a British Commonwealth member nation?


----------



## Fatfield

Eulanthe said:


> Not really. "British" is just a way to describe the citizenship of the United Kingdom, nothing more. In terms of nationality, there's no such thing. You'll notice that it's usually immigrants that identify closest with the concept of being British.


As do 56 million indigenous British people. 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## Road_UK

And the EU, UN, Nato....


----------



## volodaaaa

Road_UK said:


> And the EU, UN, Nato....


I have been always wondering, why is national level so overrated. 
Let me see:
First I am Earthling, then inhabitant of Northern Hemisphere, then Europe, then European Union, then Central Europe (as the remnants of Austro-Hungarian culture), then Slovakia, then Western Slovakia, then Bratislava region, then Bratislava, then Old town, then... etc.etc. member of my family.

Why the hell is the "national" level such important or mentioned? 
Doing so, the only true level we could be proud of is the level of our family or rather ourselves, because we can influence it.


----------



## garethni

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^For that matter, what is the College of Arms?


The College of Arms is the body in charge of heraldry in all of the UK, except Scotland (the Lord Lyon deals with that there), and dates from 1484. It is the one which issues coats of arms etc and deals with UK symbolism. And it said that as the queen will be queen of Scotland still, the flag can stay the same. Anyone who disagrees can take that up with the Court of Chivalry I suppose.


----------



## El Tiburon

garethni said:


> The College of Arms is the body in charge of heraldry in all of the UK, except Scotland (the Lord Lyon deals with that there), and dates from 1484. It is the one which issues coats of arms etc and deals with UK symbolism. And it said that as the queen will be queen of Scotland still, the flag can stay the same. Anyone who disagrees can take that up with the Court of Chivalry I suppose.


What if the Scots want another monarch or don't want the queen of England as head of state?


----------



## Eulanthe

Fatfield said:


> As do 56 million indigenous British people.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


Except many of them are now identifying much more with the constituent country. 

There are many parallels in Europe - Catalonians identify with Catalonia, not Spain. Many Montenegrins identified themselves as such, not as Yugoslavian during the times of FR Yugoslavia, and so on and so on. You wouldn't go telling a Serb or a Croat that they are "Bosnia and Hercegovinian", would you?


----------



## Road_UK

What about border crossings? Please take that "yes to Scotland" mumbo jumbo to the appropriate thread in the UK Skybar. 

(that particular thread is a bit of a shithole, and it takes so little in this thread to set the mood)


----------



## Skyline_

volodaaaa said:


> I have been always wondering, why is national level so overrated.
> Let me see:
> First I am Earthling, then inhabitant of Northern Hemisphere, then Europe, then European Union, then Central Europe (as the remnants of Austro-Hungarian culture), then Slovakia, then Western Slovakia, then Bratislava region, then Bratislava, then Old town, then... etc.etc. member of my family.
> 
> *Why the hell is the "national" level such important or mentioned?*
> Doing so, the only true level we could be proud of is the level of our family or rather ourselves, because we can influence it.


Because what primarily defines us is our passport and our mother tongue.


----------



## volodaaaa

Skyline_ said:


> Because what primarily defines us is our passport and our mother tongue.


Yeah, but... that is all? What about the European culture on one hand or local on other hand?


----------



## Skyline_

volodaaaa said:


> Yeah, but... that is all? What about the European culture on one hand or local on other hand?


It seems that European culture comes second if not third...


----------



## riiga

volodaaaa said:


> Yeah, but... that is all? What about the European culture on one hand or local on other hand?


Within a country local culture is often very important. On a European level the national identity is important, on a global level it's either the European identity or the national identity depending on the person. I identify more as Swedish than European, but I know people that lean the other way.


----------



## Fatfield

Eulanthe said:


> Except many of them are now identifying much more with the constituent country.
> 
> There are many parallels in Europe - Catalonians identify with Catalonia, not Spain. Many Montenegrins identified themselves as such, not as Yugoslavian during the times of FR Yugoslavia, and so on and so on. You wouldn't go telling a Serb or a Croat that they are "Bosnia and Hercegovinian", would you?


We're British, get over it.


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> You wouldn't go telling a Serb or a Croat that they are "Bosnia and Hercegovinian", would you?


"Bosnia and Hercegovinian" no, it sounds silly, but many people consider themselves Bosnians (or Herzegovinians).


----------



## volodaaaa

Verso said:


> "Bosnia and Hercegovinian" no, it sounds silly, but many people consider themselves Bosnians (or Herzegovinians).


I've heard, that Bosnian is a person living in Bosnia and Herzegovina, who does not care about the nationality, but proclaims himself/herself as Muslim.
Easily taken - Bosnians are whoever Croats or Serbs with Muslim belief. And they made a "nationality" from religion.

But someone living closer should relate.


----------



## nestvaran

Absolutely not :nuts:.


Bosnian (Bosanac) is a person that comes from the region of Bosnia (same way Herzegovinian or Hercegovac is a person that lives in Herzegovina, which is a region that includes even some parts of Montenegro, etc). Muslim population of Western Balkan that live in B&H, Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia, Kosovo and partialy in Turkey and who speak Bosnian language are called Bosniaks (Bošnjaci).


----------



## Skyline_

riiga said:


> I identify more as Swedish than European, but I know people that lean the other way.


Really? They must be a minority...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The border crossing between Croatia and Hungary at Goričan-Letenye. The old border crossing is quite large but appears to sit empty since the motorway border crossing opened.


----------



## volodaaaa

nestvaran said:


> Absolutely not :nuts:.
> 
> 
> Bosnian (Bosanac) is a person that comes from the region of Bosnia (same way Herzegovinian or Hercegovac is a person that lives in Herzegovina, which is a region that includes even some parts of Montenegro, etc). Muslim population of Western Balkan that live in B&H, Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia, Kosovo and partialy in Turkey and who speak Bosnian language are called Bosniaks (Bošnjaci).


Sorry, I've mixed up Bosnians and Bosniaks.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> "Bosnia and Hercegovinian" no, it sounds silly, but many people consider themselves Bosnians (or Herzegovinians).


Of course, but it just goes to show that people in Europe do refer to themselves using their nationality rather than citizenship.

Chris, isn't the old crossing at Letenye used by trucks? As far as I'm aware, the motorway crossing is only for cars. I haven't been there, but I seem to recall that they didn't bother to build any of the infrastructure for trucks at the motorway crossing.


----------



## nbcee

Skyline_ said:


> Because what primarily defines us is our passport and our mother tongue.


What if you are a member of an ethnic minority group?


----------



## volodaaaa

nbcee said:


> What if you are a member of an ethnic minority group?


Exactly. Some of my relatives are Hungarians, but they have different nationality than the majority in state, where passports are being issued. But it does not mean, they don't have citizenship feeling. Lot of them considers Slovakia as their homeland. It has nothing to do with passports at all.

Especially in Central Europe, nationalism is the most overrated (and useful) ideology. Just look at the culture and habits. 

Who is the traditional Christmas gift-bringer in Germany, Austria, Hungary, Czech rep., Slovakia, Poland? Or the Christmas carols? The same except the lyrics conformed to language. 

But do we know someone who is proud of being Central-European? :lol: And do we know nationalists in Austria, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania?... Unfortunately...


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> Of course, but it just goes to show that people in Europe do refer to themselves using their nationality rather than citizenship.


Maybe if you're an ethnic Italian living in Slovenia you'll say you're an Italian rather than a Slovenian, but Bosnian and Herzegovinian aren't ethnicities, so it's perfectly fine to consider yourself a Bosnian or Herzegovinian.


----------



## nbcee

volodaaaa said:


> Exactly. Some of my relatives are Hungarians, but they have different nationality than the majority in state, where passports are being issued. But it does not mean, they don't have citizenship feeling. Lot of them considers Slovakia as their homeland. It has nothing to do with passports at all.
> 
> Especially in Central Europe, nationalism is the most overrated (and useful) ideology. Just look at the culture and habits.
> 
> Who is the traditional Christmas gift-bringer in Germany, Austria, Hungary, Czech rep., Slovakia, Poland? Or the Christmas carols? The same except the lyrics conformed to language.
> 
> But do we know someone who is proud of being Central-European? :lol: And do we know nationalists in Austria, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania?... Unfortunately...


Well I consider myself _patriotic_ in a way of feeling connected to Hungary and all Hungarians but I also distance myself from those who think that they are better than others just because they are Hungarians.hno:

And you may think that it's funny but I love Central Europe. I like to read Hasek or Hrabal, I like to listen to Chopin or Liszt, I like to drink Czech and Slovak beers and eat Hungarian food, etc.. I feel I'm much more connected to these than to the products any other culture. I'm not saying that those are bad, it's just that these can really speak to my soul.

Have you seen the Grand Budapest Hotel?


----------



## Skyline_

nbcee said:


> What if you are a member of an ethnic minority group?


Then... it depends! You may have a dual identity, determined by your mother tongue and your....passport!


----------



## Skyline_

nbcee said:


> Have you seen the Grand Budapest Hotel?



I have... :cheers: Saoirse was so sweet... :angel:


----------



## nbcee

Skyline_ said:


> I have... :cheers: Saoirse was so sweet... :angel:


Loved it too :cheers: That movie showed a little bit of everything that makes up Central Europe.


----------



## Road_UK

Oh my God, look... It's a fucking border crossing!!!! 










Geez


----------



## volodaaaa

nbcee said:


> Well I consider myself _patriotic_ in a way of feeling connected to Hungary and all Hungarians but I also distance myself from those who think that they are better than others just because they are Hungarians.hno:
> 
> And you may think that it's funny but I love Central Europe. I like to read Hasek or Hrabal, I like to listen to Chopin or Liszt, I like to drink Czech and Slovak beers and eat Hungarian food, etc.. I feel I'm much more connected to these than to the products any other culture. I'm not saying that those are bad, it's just that these can really speak to my soul.
> 
> Have you seen the Grand Budapest Hotel?


I love Central Europe too. But not in way it is something more than other parts of Europe or World. I just identify it with my home. But sadly it seems, we are minority. And it makes me sad how V4 have not utilized its potential.


----------



## alserrod

Road_UK said:


> Oh my God, look... It's a fucking border crossing!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Geez


A Schengen border has softer controls..... lol!!!!

What I am surprised is to read it in Spanish and English... and not in Portuguese. People driving there who aren't Spanish speakers would be mainly Portuguese speakers rather than English speakers.
Obviously in airports will be conversely but not on roads...


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Are you sure it's the Peruvian-Brazilian border as opposed to one of Peru's other borders?


----------



## alserrod

No, of course... but it will be easier to see any Brazilian driver rather than other non Spanish speaking country in the world I guess


----------



## verreme

^^ I don't know much about foreign languages spoken in Latin American countries, but I guess English is more of a _lingua franca_ than Portuguese there.


----------



## Markowice10

volodaaaa said:


> I love Central Europe too. But not in way it is something more than other parts of Europe or World. I just identify it with my home. But sadly it seems, we are minority. And it makes me sad how V4 have not utilized its potential.


My Grandmother, Pole, she sang:
_*Gott erhalte, Gott beschütze
Unsern Kaiser, unser Land!*_

Österreichisch-Ungarische Monarchie is OK : :cheers:


----------



## alserrod

verreme said:


> ^^ I don't know much about foreign languages spoken in Latin American countries, but I guess English is more of a _lingua franca_ than Portuguese there.


I do not know... look around. It doesn't seem to be a business centre or so.

Spanish and Portuguese are quite close but for instance, first word in the sentence (Thank you) is quite different in both languages.

English is learnt of course but I do not think on many people who have learn English crossing there (furthermore there are many other languages learn in South America even if only Spanish and Portuguese are spoken... and English, Dutch and French in one corner. You can get amazed looking how they learn Italian or German, for instance)


----------



## Verso

alserrod said:


> No, of course... but it will be easier to see any Brazilian driver rather than other non Spanish speaking country in the world I guess


It's Peru's border with Ecuador:









http://www.travellerspoint.com/photos/stream/photoID/196932/users/hayden111/

You don't have to be a driver, you could get there by bus. I assume there're more English-speaking people crossing the border there than Brazilians or the Portuguese.


----------



## Corvinus

Donji Miholjac / Alsó-Miholjác (HR) -> Drávaszabolcs (H) crossing
April 2014
(I posted the drive in opposite direction some pages before)

1. Croatian side, part of the booths already seems abandoned, as no (systematic) customs controls anymore 









2. Border river









3. Hungary ahead









4. Drávaszabolcs "totem coloumn" and border facilities ahead. Manned with police as it's a Schengen external border.









5. Border behind us, it's now Main Road 58 









6. Bonus: border bridge seen from Hungarian rivershore


----------



## cinxxx

Slovenian border officer held us I think around 5 minutes at border crossing Metlika. Looked more then ones on our passport, on the car paper, then asked for my ID too. Then went into his hut and checked them I guess. Finally he waved us through. The Croatian was quicker, did look on every paper though...

That's maybe the most I spent at an EU border crossing for many years...


----------



## Verso

^^ Never trust Germans. :troll: Lol, when I was small and only knew Germans from world-war stories, I remember I once saw a car with German license plates (D). I freaked out and ran away.


----------



## cinxxx

LOL, but I'm not German. Maybe that is the problem?
Hm..........


----------



## Alex_ZR

Romanian passport, German car... :hmm: suspicious! :lol:

:jk:


----------



## nestvaran

New satellite imagery of Neum I-Klek and Neum II-Zaton Doli crossings finally visible on Google Maps.


----------



## Suburbanist

*Candada-US border near Cutts, Alberta*

Pics from Roadstories Canada










.










.









Border road that is the actual border line demarcation between US and Canada.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Somehow, that situation fits your sig.


----------



## Suburbanist

*Candada-US border near Cutts, Alberta*

deleted - double


----------



## Eulanthe

Can someone tell me - is the border crossing with A/HR at Nickelsdorf still intact on the Austrian side? 

The Hungarian side is quite creepy - the old Customs terminal looks like it was abandoned in 2004 and hasn't been accessed since.


----------



## bogdymol

^^ I'll drive tomorrow and on Sunday through this crossing. I'll take a look (if I don't forget).



cinxxx said:


> Slovenian border officer held us I think around 5 minutes at border crossing Metlika. Looked more then ones on *our passport*, on the car paper, then *asked for my ID too*. Then went into his hut and checked them I guess. Finally he waved us through. The Croatian was quicker, did look on every paper though...
> 
> That's maybe the most I spent at an EU border crossing for many years...


You showed Passport + ID card? What if you had just one of them? For European borders it's enough just one... either Passport or ID. Not both.


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> Can someone tell me - is the border crossing with A/*HR* at Nickelsdorf still intact on the Austrian side?


*H*unga*r*y?


----------



## cinxxx

bogdymol said:


> You showed Passport + ID card? What if you had just one of them? For European borders it's enough just one... either Passport or ID. Not both.


Sorry, I meant drivers license.


----------



## volodaaaa

Eulanthe said:


> Can someone tell me - is the border crossing with A/HR at Nickelsdorf still intact on the Austrian side?
> 
> The Hungarian side is quite creepy - the old Customs terminal looks like it was abandoned in 2004 and hasn't been accessed since.


When I've crossed it last time (autumn 2013), it looks like making a horror stage  As well as most of other Schengen border crossings that have not been taken apart.


----------



## Road_UK

It used to be like that on the two motorway crossings between France and Spain. It was only 2 or 3 years ago when they removed those buildings. 

The buildings on the two motorway crossings between the two Germanies are still there, but they've turned them into service areas. The watchtowers are also still there.


----------



## alserrod

To my best knowlesge, Mediterranean booths had to be retired prior to one date to avoid a penalty.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

For example i want to go to Greece via Bulgaria.I am planing to go across "Kulata" border crossing.So,is there any border for example like between A/HU or like SLO/HR ?


----------



## Capt.Vimes

It's like SLO/HR.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> So,is there any border for example like between A/HU or like SLO/HR ?


It can't be the same, since both Austria and Hungary are Schengen members, while Croatia isn't yet.


----------



## Capt.Vimes

I remember crossing the HR/SLO borders some years ago(before Bulgaria joined the EU). The border polce officer just aksed me where I am from and let me go on my way, without checking my papers at all.
"-Where are you from?
-Bulgaria.
-OK, you can go."
That was all. It was very strange.


----------



## Skyline_

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> For example i want to go to Greece via Bulgaria.I am planing to go across "Kulata" border crossing.So,is there any border for example like between A/HU or like SLO/HR ?


Unfortunately the highway from Bulgaria to Greece is under construction and you are gonna have to waste a lot of time going slow on Bulgarian narrow roads. hno: Once you cross the borders into Greece, road infrastructure is better so you can drive faster (over 100 km/h).

The Kulata border station has no staff on the Bulgarian side. Both Bulgarian and Greek customs officers are located on the Greek side and check your passport for a second or two. Sometimes I am not even sure if they really check it....LOL


----------



## Quilavoce

^^

A new highway is being constructed and soon will open. Going to Serres, the road isn't great either, by the way.


----------



## Kanadzie

Capt.Vimes said:


> I remember crossing the HR/SLO borders some years ago(before Bulgaria joined the EU). The border polce officer just aksed me where I am from and let me go on my way, without checking my papers at all.
> "-Where are you from?
> -Bulgaria.
> -OK, you can go."
> That was all. It was very strange.


US/Canada border was like that before 9/11... "where are you from" "Canada" "OK go" :lol:


----------



## volodaaaa

American embassy in Bratislava. This could be considered as the border crossing too.
Btw. US is the only country that fenced it territory like that. Perhaps we are potential source of terorism:-D


----------



## Alex_ZR

US embassies all around world are like fortresses...maybe because many countries "like" their policy.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> *H*unga*r*y?


Ugh, Balkans on the brain 

Bogdymol - thanks! I know the Austria finally dismantled some of them, but I'm not sure if Nickelsdorf was included. 

As for the Hungarians, apparently there's no problem with them keeping the infrastructure. Unlike France/Spain, they aren't really using the buildings to control traffic in any way - and it seems to be a deliberate policy of Fidesz to reassure nationalistic voters that they still have the possibility of reintroducing controls.


----------



## Penn's Woods

volodaaaa said:


> American embassy in Bratislava. This could be considered as the border crossing too.
> Btw. US is the only country that fenced it territory like that. Perhaps we are potential source of terorism:-D





Alex_ZR said:


> US embassies all around world are like fortresses...maybe because many countries "like" their policy.



Okay, so you'll be handling Putin on your own? :jk:

Everyone's a critic until they need us...and then it's suddenly "no, don't go!" Which is how western Europe has gotten away with doing next to squat to defend itself for 70 years, and had the luxury of sitting on the sidelines heckling. WHICH is why if it was up to me...well, we've had the NATO conversation already. (And we're supposed to put our military and lives, including civilian lives, on the line to support the expansion of the European Union, which is as much a rival of ours as it is an ally, and to do so without question? Please.)

Seriously, shit happens. Our embassies and consulates have been attacked before. Nairobi, Benghazi.... But if not liking our policies is justification for that....


PS: I'm guessing we're not the only one who have to do that. Israel for example. And given incidents like what happened today (Saturday) in Brussels.


----------



## Quilavoce

^^

He wants Putin.


----------



## volodaaaa

Penn's Woods said:


> Okay, so you'll be handling Putin on your own? :jk:
> 
> Everyone's a critic until they need us...and then it's suddenly "no, don't go!" Which is how western Europe has gotten away with doing next to squat to defend itself for 70 years, and had the luxury of sitting on the sidelines heckling. WHICH is why if it was up to me...well, we've had the NATO conversation already. (And we're supposed to put our military and lives, including civilian lives, on the line to support the expansion of the European Union, which is as much a rival of ours as it is an ally, and to do so without question? Please.)
> 
> Seriously, shit happens. Our embassies and consulates have been attacked before. Nairobi, Benghazi.... But if not liking our policies is justification for that....
> 
> 
> PS: I'm guessing we're not the only one who have to do that. Israel for example. And given incidents like what happened today (Saturday) in Brussels.


Don't take it that seriously. I just personally think, countries in NATO should not be considered as potential threat. It completely refuses the nature of NATO. How can it work if one country does not believe in others? As you properly said, sht happens, but even inside US. 

And comparing NATO countries with Ethiopia or Libya, you were just kidding ain't you?


----------



## x-type

this what US embassy made in centre of Bratislava is raping of the city center. i don't understand why city government hasn't yet expelled them to the city outskirts if they want to be placed in a fortress.


----------



## cinxxx

When I crossed into BiH from Croatian A10 it was so relaxed that the Bosnian didn't stamp my passport. And I totally forgot to ask 

Yesterday I crossed back into HR at Cepikuce. Check is done together on Croatian side. You drive some 1-2 km in Croatia until the check though. This crossing was one of the most relaxed ones I have ever been to. 

I asked there for a stamp this time, I got one, it's Croatian with EU stars:

screen capture


----------



## nestvaran

x-type said:


> this what US embassy made in centre of Bratislava is raping of the city center. i don't understand why city government hasn't yet expelled them to the city outskirts if they want to be placed in a fortress.


And here's American embassy in Sarajevo :nuts:


----------



## Ulpiana

volodaaaa said:


> American embassy in Bratislava. This could be considered as the border crossing too.
> Btw. US is the only country that fenced it territory like that.* Perhaps we are potential source of terorism*:-D


 No, but they are potential victims of terrorism.


----------



## x-type

Ulpiana said:


> No, but they are potential victims of terrorism.


why?


----------



## volodaaaa

x-type said:


> this what US embassy made in centre of Bratislava is raping of the city center. i don't understand why city government hasn't yet expelled them to the city outskirts if they want to be placed in a fortress.


It is okay, the contract expires at the end of 2014 and representatives of US embassy agreed to move to the periphery.


----------



## Ulpiana

x-type said:


> why?


I guess, American foreign policy is what terrorists (without borders  ) don't like. 

For more accurate answer you should ask terrorists why.


----------



## x-type

Ulpiana said:


> I guess, American foreign policy is what terrorists (without borders  ) don't like.
> 
> For more accurate answer you should ask terrorists why.


i absolutely don't agree. there are much more terrorist attacks in the rest of the world than in USA.


----------



## Ulpiana

^^ Since this is a little off-topic subject, I continued our "conversation" here.


----------



## bogdymol

Eulanthe said:


> Can someone tell me - is the border crossing with A/HR at Nickelsdorf still intact on the Austrian side?
> 
> The Hungarian side is quite creepy - the old Customs terminal looks like it was abandoned in 2004 and hasn't been accessed since.


*Pictures as requested.

Direction Austria -> Hungary:*

You can see that the autobahn goes straight ahead now, but the former customs terminal is still there, on the right side (although unused):










Between the 2 countries:










Hungarian terminal is still there and the asphalt sucks:










*Direction Hungary -> Austria:*

Hungarian terminal:



















Austrian one you can still see on the right edge of the picture:


----------



## Penn's Woods

Please delete - moved to Roadside Rest


----------



## Penn's Woods

Ulpiana said:


> ^^ Since this is a little off-topic subject, I continued our "conversation" here.


Ah. Sorry.
Um. let's see....


----------



## Palance

nestvaran said:


> New satellite imagery of Neum I-Klek and Neum II-Zaton Doli crossings finally visible on Google Maps.


The old crossing Zaton Doli is also still visible (about a kilometer east of the current crossing), but does mot exist anymore.


----------



## stickedy

cinxxx said:


> Yesterday I crossed back into HR at Cepikuce. Check is done together on Croatian side. You drive some 1-2 km in Croatia until the check though. This crossing was one of the most relaxed ones I have ever been to.


That's in the middle of nowhere... I guess you have been the only car for the whole day  I just find it by accident on Google Maps and remembered reading that name a few hours back. Is that border crossing an international one? That's surprising.


----------



## los77

*2014 05 24 - Border crossing Zwardoń [PL] - Skalite [SK]​*
01 Towards Polish









02









03









04. Yellow points mean boundary









05. Towards Slovakia









06. From the left came D3, the existing road right









07.









THE END :cheers:


----------



## Reivajar

That layout is usual?

I mean, I guess that the third lane is because of a slope, but it is usual to remove the shoulder in that case instead of enlarging the carriageway?

Anyway, is it the S69? Which is the standard width for shoulders in expressways (not in motorways)?


----------



## Road_UK

Well, it's more Switzerland actually. Swiss customs and immigration services are also responsible for Liechtenstein.


----------



## popcalent

Verso said:


> It's Peru's border with Ecuador:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.travellerspoint.com/photos/stream/photoID/196932/users/hayden111/
> 
> You don't have to be a driver, you could get there by bus. I assume there're more English-speaking people crossing the border there than Brazilians or the Portuguese.


I was going to say the same. Borders usually use the language of both bordering countries (in this case both countries speak Spanish) and English as lingua franca. They don't care about third countries no matter how close they are.

It wouldn't make any sense to use Portuguese just because one of the two countries also borders Brazil. The border between Spain and France doesn't have signs in Portuguese just because Spain borders Portugal.


----------



## Road_UK

No, but I've noticed a lot of advertising in Spanish in Portugal near the Spanish border. Especially before you get to Vigo...


----------



## popcalent

cinxxx said:


> It's not fake, it's unofficial. Since FL joined Schengen and they don't have an airport you won't get any official stamps on border crossings anymore. Nice stamps there though


I used the term fake stamp to refer to fake immigration stamps. I haven't read all passports in the world but I would say 90% of passports have an inscription that reads (more or less) that only proper authorities are entitled to stamp the passport. Usually a stamp not issued by a proper authority (immigration police, police, consulate, embassy, etc.) is considered a fake stamp.

I have the San Marinese, the Monegasque, the Vatican, and the same Liechtenstein stamp you have. I consider those to be fake because the issuers don't have the authority to stamp my passport. Just if I stamped my own passport with my smurf stamp, I wouldn't consider it a real stamp (although the stamp itself, the object, is real). 

I also have the Andorran stamp that doesn't even have a date on it and it just reads "Andorra, the country in the Pyrenees". But that I got at immigration from an immigration officer who has the authority to stamp my passport. Therefore, that's a real stamp.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Mirror's Edge said:


> McDonald's ad on the Sweden/Norway border...SEK 1 is 0.9 NOK


Point of this would be lost if two countries would have euro as a currency... :troll:


----------



## popcalent

volodaaaa said:


> American embassy in Bratislava. This could be considered as the border crossing too.
> Btw. US is the only country that fenced it territory like that. Perhaps we are potential source of terorism:-D


Embassies and consulates are granted extraterritoriality but they are considered soil of the hosting country. So no international border crossing there.


----------



## alserrod

by the way, I've checking Peru-Ecuador border crossing. There aren't many and in one case you may get a ferry or so because both roads approach to a river but there's no bridge.

A lot of border is in the middle of the jungle.


And.... I think I got the picture more or less. Google street view is not available yet in Ecuador and barely in Peru.


Have a look

It is in Huaquillas (Ecuador) but in the Peruan side (not Ecuador images available).


It is clearly a different picture (not the same pannel either the logo) but the same message:

"Peru, thanks for your visit" bilingual and later "Welcome to Ecuador", in red and blue.


What the ****!!!, is there any border control?. Not only there but in the whole city


https://www.google.es/maps/@-3.4814...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1suwxN3pBQ10L_m1hg76rhzQ!2e0


----------



## alserrod

popcalent said:


> Embassies and consulates are granted extraterritoriality but they are considered soil of the hosting country. So no international border crossing there.


+1


An embassy is never part of the country that manages it but just a building in a host country.

Due to international agreements, an attack to an embassy can have fatal consequences (not the same to a consulate but obviously it is not quite fair) but never considered as an invasion or so...


----------



## popcalent

alserrod said:


> What the ****!!!, is there any border control?. Not only there but in the whole city


I've been to many border crossings in Latin America including the Peruvian one (not this particular one) and Costa Rica with Panama and Nicaragua; and in Asia: Thailand, Laos, Burma, Cambodia, etc. and they all look like the one in the picture.

You can cross freely to either side and nobody will ask you to produce ID but you are expected to report yourself to immigration if you're staying in the country. Usually if you just cross for the day and stay around there's no need to report. But if you decided to get further inland you would eventually be stopped at a check point and then arrested or sent back if you had no passport stamp (ie. leave to stay).

The US-Mexican border is also like that on the Mexican side. You can cross into Mexico and nobody cares. Of course, coming back to the US is another whole story.


----------



## Verso

popcalent said:


> I used the term fake stamp to refer to fake immigration stamps. I haven't read all passports in the world but I would say 90% of passports have an inscription that reads (more or less) that only proper authorities are entitled to stamp the passport. Usually a stamp not issued by a proper authority (immigration police, police, consulate, embassy, etc.) is considered a fake stamp.


When I was once in Swiss mountains (probably the Jungfraujoch saddle, can't remember), I saw a large group of Lithuanians stamping their passports with the mountain's stamp. :lol:


----------



## Kanadzie

popcalent said:


> The US-Mexican border is also like that on the Mexican side. You can cross into Mexico and nobody cares. Of course, coming back to the US is another whole story.


Unless they suspect you're going to sell your car! Or has NAFTA finally killed that insanity?


----------



## Natomasken

Mirror's Edge said:


> McDonald's ad on the Sweden/Norway border...SEK 1 is 0.9 NOK


So that's about $9 US in Sweden (not that much more than in the US, probably over $7 after sales tax for the meal) but about $15 US in Norway! Why such a big difference in price? Taxes? Or is the 59 SEK some kind of bargain price?


----------



## Kanadzie

Norwegian taxes on almost any product are completely insane, I am not sure how the country continues to exist (I guess the people are too calm and Sweden too easy to visit)

I really like how the billboard is in both countries. Imagine in any non-Schengen country trying to get such a sign installed.


----------



## popcalent

Verso said:


> When I was once in Swiss mountains (probably the Jungfraujoch saddle, can't remember), I saw a large group of Lithuanians stamping their passports with the mountain's stamp. :lol:


In Japan there's an ink stamp in pretty much every temple, castle, tower, and major train station so you can stamp your own passport yourself. That doesn't make you any proper authority to stamp passports. And theoretically that would void your passport.


----------



## popcalent

Kanadzie said:


> Unless they suspect you're going to sell your car! Or has NAFTA finally killed that insanity?


I've always crossed on foot, so I can't answer that one. If you've seen the movie No country for old men, when he crosses into Mexico, and the Mexican border guard is sleeping, opens one eye, looks at the guy, and then continues to sleep, that's how it really is!


----------



## Alex_ZR

Talking about passport stamps, in Berlin you can get a variety of passport stamps as a souvenir.



















I guess this is because travelling inside Schengen zone can cause "passport emptiness", so people see this as a way of getting a memory on their visit and to have something in their passports. Once I've saw one of many "travel-blogs" written by an American who, after entering Serbia from Hungary, said "finally a stamp in my passport".


----------



## volodaaaa

The Berlin CoA looks like this meme :lol:


----------



## alserrod

Last time I entried in a non EU country (Croatia before.belonging), no stamps.

Last time in Andorra, no stamps
both cases out of Schengen and EU.

Last time to UK didn't want to stamp my passport. They were quite busy.

Last time I had an official stamping was in Tunisia.

That's why many Europeans wonder if it worths to carry over with the passport or any ID is enough


----------



## Verso

popcalent said:


> In Japan there's an ink stamp in pretty much every temple, castle, tower, and major train station so you can stamp your own passport yourself. That doesn't make you any proper authority to stamp passports. And theoretically that would void your passport.


Well, those stamps they have in mountain cottages belong to your hiking booklet, not your passport.


----------



## cinxxx

alserrod said:


> Last time I entried in a non EU country (Croatia before.belonging), no stamps.
> 
> Last time in Andorra, no stamps
> both cases out of Schengen and EU.
> 
> Last time to UK didn't want to stamp my passport. They were quite busy.
> 
> Last time I had an official stamping was in Tunisia.
> 
> That's why many Europeans wonder if it worths to carry over with the passport or any ID is enough


If I hadn't expressly asked for stamps, I wouldn't have gotten any...


----------



## gbrads1980

Eulanthe said:


> To those that have crossed the border into Gibraltar - can anyone tell me if there are...
> 
> - exit controls from Spain (or even an empty booth - anything at all that implies control?)
> 
> And... how does the entry control into Spain look like? Is there anything similar to the Gibraltar 'corridor' that pedestrians go through, or is it just a hut with a window?
> 
> And the final question - how do Spanish entry controls normally look?


I live in Gibraltar.

There are exit controls from Spain. There are always passport checks and depending on the political situation there can be an empty customs booth or there can be civil guards checking every car for 10 mins plus.

There is a proper building for pedestrians into spain, where pedestrians have to put their bags through X-ray machines etc.

The entry controls vary from one uninterested guard chatting to his amigo ,to intensive checks where every car is checked for 10 mins plus, again depending on the political climate of the day.


----------



## OulaL

gbrads1980 said:


> I live in Gibraltar.
> 
> There are exit controls from Spain. There are always passport checks and depending on the political situation there can be an empty customs booth or there can be civil guards checking every car for 10 mins plus.
> 
> There is a proper building for pedestrians into spain, where pedestrians have to put their bags through X-ray machines etc.
> 
> The entry controls vary from one uninterested guard chatting to his amigo ,to intensive checks where every car is checked for 10 mins plus, again depending on the political climate of the day.


How does this differ from the Spanish borders with Andorra and Morocco?


----------



## gbrads1980

OulaL said:


> How does this differ from the Spanish borders with Andorra and Morocco?


The thing to remember is that the queues on the border with Gibraltar are largely political. When the guards have a spell where they check every car for 10 minutes this involves stopping a car in the lane, wandering around for a bit, chat to their friends and generally waste time, then let the car go. 

The moroccan border is a different case completely, it's a border between the developed world and the third world with a HUGE income disparity. So the checking is done much more diligently and with purpose.

Having said that I've crossed the moroccan border at Ceuta, I was travelling on an organised tour in a spanish registered minibus, so we were waved straight through.


----------



## Road_UK

Entering Morocco wasn't a big deal for me neither. Got of the ferry at Tangier, got a stamp in my passport and walked into Tangier, immediately being harassed by salesmen. I only went for the day after doing a delivery in Gibraltar.

After this harassment I just carried on walking through town pretending to know what I was doing, and they'll leave you alone. It was an experience, but I was glad to have made it back to Algeciras in the evening.


----------



## alserrod

OulaL said:


> How does this differ from the Spanish borders with Andorra and Morocco?


with Andorra, both sides aren't worried in passports and Spain (either France), have goods control for inmigration. Randomly you can have a control in Andorra but they are barely done.

The rule in Andorra is clear. It only worths if you are carrying a great deal of goods which have different taxes. Alcohol and Tobacco mainly.

It is enough to see that a car not full with it doesn't worth for smuggling cos they require to make at least 26 km (13 from first Andorran town to La Seu and back again). Thus they check a random baggage and if it is OK they let you go on.

In Gibraltar it is different. You could carry only a baggage, cross the border, leave it for anyone or in a warehouse and back again for another baggage. 

Taxes differences between Spain-Gibraltar and Spain-Andorra are similar (or at least the smuggling problem is similar) but Spain-Andorra border is in the middle of nowhere and 10 km away from first road crossing and town in Spain but in Gibraltar is close to a town.


----------



## Verso

Road_UK said:


> After this harassment I just carried on walking through town pretending to know what I was doing, and they'll leave you alone.


My tactics as well. :lol:


----------



## Eulanthe

gbrads1980 said:


> I live in Gibraltar.
> 
> There are exit controls from Spain. There are always passport checks and depending on the political situation there can be an empty customs booth or there can be civil guards checking every car for 10 mins plus.


Are these passport checks carried out on pedestrians too? I'm trying to figure out where the Spanish exit passport checks are carried out on pedestrians. 



> There is a proper building for pedestrians into spain, where pedestrians have to put their bags through X-ray machines etc.


Aha! Do they also check passports routinely there?

Incidentally, do you know anything about Gibraltar's plan to put Customs controls on exit? I was reading something about some barriers going in place - any ideas?


----------



## gbrads1980

Eulanthe said:


> Are these passport checks carried out on pedestrians too? I'm trying to figure out where the Spanish exit passport checks are carried out on pedestrians.
> 
> 
> 
> Aha! Do they also check passports routinely there?
> 
> Incidentally, do you know anything about Gibraltar's plan to put Customs controls on exit? I was reading something about some barriers going in place - any ideas?


The passport checks are carried out immediately after pedestrians cross the border, the passport officers just stand there, there are no kiosks etc. Normally the process is very quick, just a cursory glance but occasionally the PN will scrutinise each and every passport, which can cause pedestrian queues of over an hour.

The new customs barriers are in place but not in use yet, there is also a new covered search area that has been build.

There is a live border camera that demonstrates then new controls
http://www.frontierqueue.gi


----------



## AsHalt

^^^^ speaking of which ,any countries have a CCTV for public viewing? 
I kn Singapore and Malaysia each have their own ,with only the Malaysia side have limited places for public viewing (the border side).


----------



## Theijs

AsHalt said:


> ^^^^ speaking of which ,any countries have a CCTV for public viewing?


Finland, FYROM


----------



## Reivajar

AsHalt said:


> ^^^^ speaking of which ,any countries have a CCTV for public viewing?
> I kn Singapore and Malaysia each have their own ,with only the Malaysia side have limited places for public viewing (the border side).


You mean out of traffic cameras?


----------



## erxgli

*Le Perthus Spain - Els Limits France*


----------



## alserrod

It seems that corner "is different". They have the shire name signal prior the country in the motorway...
(last before one)

Cool pictures


----------



## Palance

"Tickets not valid in Spain"  Couldn't they think of some crossborder parking fare?


----------



## alserrod

They could but...

by the way, look at third picture. If you are parking there, car is in France (and if you get off by the right side of the car you are crossing a border).
But parking metres must remain in France so you may look for them in the opposite side of the street. In that pedestrian area they cannot.
Furthermore, any police should walk along the road to fine you. They cannot fine you from the pedestrian side because it is a different country.


Same tickest for both countries?. They could... First of all, I do not know if they have same (or at least similar) fares. Secondly, you can see two parking metres with only 20 cm away each other... one in each country. Information is related to the Spanish one and they just remember that you may not buy there a ticket if you have parked in France. (and information is not written in Spanish.... that corner is different...)


----------



## VITORIA MAN

The same place , some years ago...








source: forum-auto.com
notice the stones


----------



## AsHalt

Reivajar said:


> You mean out of traffic cameras?


Anything!
normal cctvs ,traffic cams and even the not-frequently-seen cams. As long as it's placed online or somewhere for public use.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

spanish side


----------



## xrtn2

VITORIA MAN said:


> The same place , some years ago...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> source: forum-auto.com
> notice the stones


THis is crazy :nuts:


----------



## xrtn2

EMArg said:


> Model of the project of the Bioceanic Tunnel who would connect Argentina and Chile trough the Andes:


:cheers:


----------



## xrtn2

Brazil to Guyana 

Ponte dos Macuxis - Em Boa Vista









BR - 401, cruzando o Lavrado 









BR - 401, ao fundo se vê o morro Redondo.









Posto da SEFAZ(Alfândega) 









Indo em direção a ponte Luís Inácio Lula da Silva(foi ele quem inaugurou em 2009), atravessa o rio Tacutu, que faz a fronteira natural entre os dois países









Vista do rio Tacutu a partir da ponte, ao fundo se vê algumas serras na Guiana









As imagens acabam aqui, mas dá pra ver ao fundo o viaduto que faz a coversão para a "mão-inglesa", que é utilizado na Guiana, e a cidade de Lethem fica logo após ele, uma cidade pequena mas muito agitada por conta do comércio que cresce cada vez mais


----------



## cinxxx

Coming by car, what's the best place to park it in order to walk to the tripoint D/CZ/PL?
Germany, Czech Republic or Poland?


----------



## Eulanthe

cinxxx said:


> Coming by car, what's the best place to park it in order to walk to the tripoint D/CZ/PL?
> Germany, Czech Republic or Poland?


Park at the old PL/CZ border crossing on the Czech side. It's got a small parking area, or you can park in the nearby shop/petrol station. It's only about a 5 minute walk from there. Furthermore, the old buildings are still intact there, and you can see how pedestrians had to walk around the back of the buildings as opposed to simply crossing along with the cars. 

The tripoint is quite disappointing however - there are some plans on information boards on the Czech side (which you approach the tripoint from) that haven't been realised, and there's no possibility of crossing to the German side at that point. The PL side now has a small bridge, but you can jump over the stream easily if you so wish.

If you're in the area, it's well worth a small detour to Krzewina Zgorzelecka too for the sheer novelty of a German town having their train station in Poland. Avoid Sieniawka though, it's unbelievably horrible - it looks like how I imagine a Polish border town to look in 1990.


----------



## cinxxx

^^There seems to be a bridge from the German side too 
https://goo.gl/maps/TgfUv

Lol, at Ostritz with the train station








http://www.panoramio.com/photo/14543504


----------



## italystf

xrtn2 said:


> Brazil to Guyana


It's strange that Manaus, one of the largest Brazilian cities, and one of the venues of the 2014 World Cup, is connected by road to Guyana and Venezuela but not with the rest of Brazil! :nuts:


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> It's strange that Manaus, one of the largest Brazilian cities, and one of the venues of the 2014 World Cup, is connected by road to Guyana and Venezuela but not with the rest of Brazil! :nuts:


Why is that strange? There's just a bridge missing over the wide Amazon (there's ferry though).


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Why is that strange? There's just a bridge missing over the wide Amazon (there's ferry though).


No, there's no road for hundreds of kilometers, only a earth track with wooden bridges occasionally used by off-road vehicles. Try Rio de Janeiro - Manaus on Google Maps, it says that it's impossible (like Rome - New York).
Some months ago a set of pics taken by an Estonian guy travelling around the world was posted on the Brazilian thread.


----------



## Verso

Oh, you're right, that road became impassable long ago. Well, you can still get to Rio over Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, and Peru. :troll:


----------



## xrtn2

italystf said:


> It's strange that Manaus, one of the largest Brazilian cities, and one of the venues of the 2014 World Cup, is connected by road to Guyana and Venezuela but not with the rest of Brazil! :nuts:


We need to build a second bridge over the Solimões river. The first bridge(AM 070) over the Rio Negro river was opened in 2012:



















Map:


----------



## OulaL

italystf said:


> No, there's no road for hundreds of kilometers, only a earth track with wooden bridges occasionally used by off-road vehicles. Try Rio de Janeiro - Manaus on Google Maps, it says that it's impossible (like Rome - New York).
> Some months ago a set of pics taken by an Estonian guy travelling around the world was posted on the Brazilian thread.


It seems like Google maps doesn't find the border crossings with Colombia (neither with Ecuador nor Venezuela) at all. As pointed out by Verso, shouldn't it be able to do that? (Though it would be silly of course.)


----------



## Verso

From Manaus to Porto Velho it's almost 9,000 km over Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, and Peru.

1. http://goo.gl/maps/zP6gd
2. http://goo.gl/maps/zF5Z4
3. http://goo.gl/maps/eCi0s


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> From Manaus to Porto Velho it's almost 9,000 km over Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, and Peru.
> 
> 1. http://goo.gl/maps/zP6gd
> 2. http://goo.gl/maps/zF5Z4
> 3. http://goo.gl/maps/eCi0s


Map of the contiguous regions of Google Maps: Google doesn't allow to calculate routes between areas marked in different colours.








As for Manaus, (where hopefully tomorrow we will defeat the English team :lol, I found out that there is a ferry along the Madeira river connecting it with Porto Velho in 3 days. They don't want to build a road because they fear it would help deforestation.


----------



## Verso

^^ The Pakistan-India border can't be crossed either (in GM I mean).


----------



## Reivajar

And which is the reason of those different regions?


----------



## AsHalt

Reivajar said:


> And which is the reason of those different regions?


Mostly geopolitical, but some like China is due to sensorship /Server hosted at different places. Also most are quite obvious that they can't be reached in any form available...:bash:


----------



## alserrod

Lol, Madagascar, Iceland and Cuba in red!!!!


why Russia has a "corner" in grey?


----------



## Singidunum

There are no roads I guess


----------



## Verso

There are some roads, but GM doesn't show them.


----------



## italystf

Kamchatka (yes, it exists in reality besides in Risiko) and Chukotka (former Abramovic reign) can't be reached by road. Magadan is the closest place you can drive to.

Iceland is connected by ferry to Denmark but Google doesn't recognize it. But at least it doesn't suggest you to swim. 

I don't get why Colombia, Guyanas, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan and China aren't integrated in the continental road network.


----------



## Singidunum

Does Google take into account that borders between many countries are closed off?


----------



## Palance

Jordan and Lebanon should be accessible by car - even Israel


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Kamchatka (yes, it exists in reality besides in Risiko) and Chukotka (former Abramovic reign) can't be reached by road.


No, but there are some isolated roads there anyway, like A384 between Anadyr and its airport or A401 between Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky and its sea port.


----------



## CNGL

italystf said:


> I don't get why Colombia, Guyanas, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan and China aren't integrated in the continental road network.


China it's not aligned with the rest of maps. And you listed Jordan twice .


----------



## OulaL

Singidunum said:


> Does Google take into account that borders between many countries are closed off?


Not all of them. For instance the crossing at Nellim (between Ivalo and Nikel) on Finnish-Russian border is not open for public, though Google claims it is. If you don't find this out earlier than at the border, you'll have to return for 43 km (Finnish side) or 98 km (Russian side).


----------



## geogregor

I've seen a lot of border crossing in this thread, often quite exotic, but I don't think anyone posted one of the busiest crossings in Europe, the Port of Dover.
So here are my shots from this weekend:




































Queue of lorries


----------



## geogregor

France visible in the distance


----------



## geogregor

Signage on A20









and on M20


----------



## piotr71

^^
"but I don't think anyone posted one of the busiest crossings in Europe, the Port of Dover."
I did, actually, should not I answer 'I have'? Never mind, my reports, however, were neither so detailed nor pretty.


----------



## volodaaaa

Just one question or rather loud consideration:

If the Eurotunnel fares went down and the number of travelled passengers and cars increased, would not it be more profitable and confortable, would it?


----------



## piotr71

Travelling through the tunnel is with no doubts much quiicker and more reliable. It may also turn pretty cheap if one know how to pre-book tickets. However, there is one 'but' - if anything happens, it's probably far more harder to undertake rescue action under such amount of water, than on its surface. And, you know, that strange feeling...


----------



## MattiG

volodaaaa said:


> Just one question or rather loud consideration:
> 
> If the Eurotunnel fares went down and the number of travelled passengers and cars increased, would not it be more profitable and confortable, would it?


Well... It depends.

Typically, if there is spare capacity available, then yes, otherwise perhaps no. In 2013, EU said the rail access charges are too high, because up to 43% of the track capacity is unused. But even if there were free capacity on the tracks, there might be lack of capacity on the rolling stock. Increasing that capacity to match the increased demand, might ruin the business case.


----------



## geogregor

Channel Tunnel did get quite a chunk of the cross-channel traffic already.
Here are related articles in The Economist

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21602261-why-sea-passenger-market-may-finally-collapse-set-adrift 
http://www.economist.com/news/business/21601882-bad-project-comes-goodwith-better-yet-store-next-20-years

It might be a reason why SeaFrance, for years one of the two main operators of the Dover - Calais route, went bankrupt in 2012.

The tunnel is quicker but I actually prefer using ferry as there is something romantic in ferry crossing. Especially on a nice summer day. Also, it is good to have competition, it keeps prices low. So I hope ferries will go strongly for years to come.

On the day of my visit the Port of Dover looked very busy, with huge queue of lorries and ferries constantly coming and going. In fact the queue of lorries stretched all the way to the A20 incline, past the last roundabout on the way to London. 
Anyway, just to summarize, in 2013 about 20 million people used Channel Tunnel and 16 million used Dover ferries.


----------



## cinxxx

*Austria-Slovenia at Karawankentunnel*


AUT_A11 von cinxxx auf Flickr


AUT_A11 von cinxxx auf Flickr


SLO_A2 von cinxxx auf Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

*Time for some Balkan border crossings *

Croatia (A10) - Bosnia and Herzegovina (A1)


HR_A10 von cinxxx auf Flickr


BiH_A1 von cinxxx auf Flickr


BiH_A1 von cinxxx auf Flickr


BiH_A1 von cinxxx auf Flickr


BiH_A1 von cinxxx auf Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

Ok this is not international, but between the 2 entities of Bosnia-Herzegovina


BiH_M6 von cinxxx auf Flickr

BiH (Trebimlja) - Croatia (Čepikuće)


BiH (Trebimlja) - HR (Čepikuće) von cinxxx auf Flickr


BiH (Trebimlja) - HR (Čepikuće) von cinxxx auf Flickr


BiH (Trebimlja) - HR (Čepikuće) von cinxxx auf Flickr



I will post more later


----------



## geogregor

cinxxx said:


> *Time for some Balkan border crossings *


Wow, that's something new


----------



## Alex_ZR

Any photos from Montenegro-Albania or Albania-Macedonia border?


----------



## cinxxx

Yes, but I haven't processed them yet


----------



## Eulanthe

volodaaaa said:


> Just one question or rather loud consideration:
> 
> If the Eurotunnel fares went down and the number of travelled passengers and cars increased, would not it be more profitable and confortable, would it?


As I understand it, the original idea for the Channel Tunnel is that it would have been genuinely turn up and go. For example - the check-in booths at Folkestone and Calais were originally called toll booths, and they were designed (from what I remember...) very similarly to the average French toll booth, even down to having displays to show the price and type of vehicle.

The infrastructure in Folkestone and Calais shows this - I can't explain it well, but when you drive down the ramps to the train - http://cdn.carthrottle.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Eurotunnel.jpg - you can see that there are many, many ramps down to the loading areas. As far as I know, the original intention was for this marshalling area to be very busy indeed. 

The whole area in Folkestone and Calais is very much a tribute to what could have been.


----------



## cinxxx

Croatia (Vitaljina) - Montenegro (Kobila)
The Croat checkpoint was just a small hut. The Montenegrin looked more international 

it was raining...


HR_516 von cinxxx auf Flickr


HR_516 von cinxxx auf Flickr


HR_516 von cinxxx auf Flickr


HR_516 von cinxxx auf Flickr


----------



## Verso

^^ Very beautiful. That's not E65 though.


----------



## cinxxx

^^It's not, did I say it is?


----------



## Verso

No, a sign says so.


----------



## cinxxx

^^Ah, yes, I also wondered why it's signed E65...


----------



## Eulanthe

Were they incredibly relaxed at Kobila? When I went there, they were sitting around, drinking coffee and joking with me and my wife. The Croatians on the other hand were just chilling out - who wouldn't with such a view?

I always found the difference in attitude between Vitaljina and Karasovici to be incredible.


----------



## cinxxx

The Croats were very relaxed, we didn't need more then 20 seconds to pass. The Montenegrin was also in a good mood. He quickly checked our trunk and our documents, but we didn't stay long there.


----------



## Palance

When I was there last year, (from MNE to HR), the Montenegron police was very relaxed, but when he found out I spoke the local language(s) he became even more relaxed. I was almost expecting an invitation for a drink


----------



## volodaaaa

Palance said:


> When I was there last year, (from MNE to HR), the Montenegron police was very relaxed, but when he found out I spoke the local language(s) he became even more relaxed. I was almost expecting an invitation for a drink


Reminds me myself at SRB-HU border check. Tried to start a small talk in Hungarian (like jónapót, hazamegyek) with the officer :lol: He was such happy to hear me speaking Hungarian that he asked me something I had no clue about :lol: Then I told him I can't speak hungarian

His facial expression was like:


----------



## Eulanthe

Palance said:


> When I was there last year, (from MNE to HR), the Montenegron police was very relaxed, but when he found out I spoke the local language(s) he became even more relaxed. I was almost expecting an invitation for a drink


I guess the location encourages their good mood 

We were laughing with them about the similarities between Polish and their language, and we must have stayed at the checkpoint for about 15 minutes just because the conversation was interesting and we weren't in a hurry. No other cars turned up, so no wonder they were so relaxed with such an easy job.


----------



## Stainless

Eulanthe said:


> As I understand it, the original idea for the Channel Tunnel is that it would have been genuinely turn up and go. For example - the check-in booths at Folkestone and Calais were originally called toll booths, and they were designed (from what I remember...) very similarly to the average French toll booth, even down to having displays to show the price and type of vehicle.
> 
> The infrastructure in Folkestone and Calais shows this - I can't explain it well, but when you drive down the ramps to the train - http://cdn.carthrottle.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Eurotunnel.jpg - you can see that there are many, many ramps down to the loading areas. As far as I know, the original intention was for this marshalling area to be very busy indeed.
> 
> The whole area in Folkestone and Calais is very much a tribute to what could have been.


Was the original idea that it would completely replace the ferries, like the Aust ferry to Wales which ended the day the Severn Bridge opened? Could it even handle the amount of traffic the ferries take? It is a seriously busy crossing, bearing in mind that on top of Dover Calais, there is Dover-Dunkirk and Newhaven-Dieppe is not that far away. 

I always wondered if anybody has considered another terminal, further up the M20 or even the other side of London, just single level to fit European loading gauge to take some traffic off the M20. HS1 is quite underused so this could in theory be possible.


----------



## geogregor

Stainless said:


> Was the original idea that it would completely replace the ferries, like the Aust ferry to Wales which ended the day the Severn Bridge opened? Could it even handle the amount of traffic the ferries take? It is a seriously busy crossing, bearing in mind that on top of Dover Calais, there is Dover-Dunkirk and Newhaven-Dieppe is not that far away.


I don't think there was ever such an idea.
It was more about having faster, less weather dependent option for crossing the Channel. Also keeping ferries and tunnel competing keep prices in check.



> I always wondered if anybody has considered another terminal, further up the M20 or even the other side of London, just single level to fit European loading gauge to take some traffic off the M20. HS1 is quite underused so this could in theory be possible.


What for? Longer journey on a a train means higher cost and less slots for lucrative high speed trains. After opening access to the tunnel to companies like Deutche Bahn number of passenger trains will surely increase.


----------



## Eulanthe

Stainless said:


> Was the original idea that it would completely replace the ferries, like the Aust ferry to Wales which ended the day the Severn Bridge opened?


I think the original thinking was that it would probably destroy the business case for the tourist market on the ferries, and to a certain extent, they've succeeded. I'm not so convinced that they were ever really that interested in the freight market - the facilities for freight are shockingly poor compared to the ferries, and they don't really seem to show much interest in trying to win that business. 



> Could it even handle the amount of traffic the ferries take? It is a seriously busy crossing, bearing in mind that on top of Dover Calais, there is Dover-Dunkirk and Newhaven-Dieppe is not that far away.


Newhaven-Dieppe is dying - Newhaven Harbour can't accommodate the size of ships needed to make it commercially work, and the local government in Dieppe keep threatening to pull the plug.

With Dover-Dunkirk/Calais, it could easily absorb the tourist traffic without any pain. Freight traffic, maybe not - the new P&O ships really eat up a huge amount of freight on every crossing. But I think that the future of that crossing is with a single company operating Dover-Calais vs Eurotunnel - there's no way DFDS, P&O and MyFerryLink can all survive in that market.

I suspect that if the security and frontier checks were dropped, usage would go through the roof. 



> I always wondered if anybody has considered another terminal, further up the M20 or even the other side of London, just single level to fit European loading gauge to take some traffic off the M20. HS1 is quite underused so this could in theory be possible.


I guess the problem is that it will always be cheaper to drive than to take the train.


----------



## geogregor

BTW, here is place where all the spoil from the tunnel was dumped:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samphire_Hoe_Country_Park
http://www.samphirehoe.co.uk/

Entering via single lane tunnel:


----------



## geogregor

Folkstone in the distance:













































Massive seawall keeps everything in place









Exiting via single lane tunnel again









Sorry for doing a bit of OT (as it is not part of the border crossing) but I hope you will forgive me a bit of geeky stuff on this forum


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^We were just talking border crossings on the Canada thread....

(But I didn't start it. :angel: )


----------



## x-type

volodaaaa said:


> Reminds me myself at SRB-HU border check. Tried to start a small talk in Hungarian (like jónapót, hazamegyek) with the officer :lol: He was such happy to hear me speaking Hungarian that he asked me something I had no clue about :lol: Then I told him I can't speak hungarian


i had similar situation  i was driving my sister to airport in Budapest to catch early flight. so, middle of the night, small border crossing (Gola - Berzence), officers are quite surprised to see a car there. just like you, i said jó estét kivánok, he responded me something in hungrian, and i made relaxed face as i understood everything and said "Ferihegy". his response was: "aaa, Ferihegy!", thanked in hungarian and probably wished me nice trip :lol:


----------



## xrtn2

$ 100 millions for second bridge between Brasil and Paraguay:



> *Dnit divulga empresa que construirá nova ponte entre Brasil e Paraguai
> Construtora vai cobrar R$ 233,3 milhões pela obra, em Foz do Iguaçu.
> Nova ponte será do tipo estaiada e deve ficar pronta em 2017.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foi divulgado na tarde desta quinta-feira (24) o resultado da licitação que escolheu a empresa que construirá a segunda ponte internacional entre o Brasil e o Paraguai, em Foz do Iguaçu, no oeste do Paraná. Duas construtoras participaram do processo, realizado em Brasília, no Distrito Federal. Segundo o Departamento Nacional de Infraestrutura de Transporte (Dnit), a proposta vencedora foi a do Consórcio Construbase/Cidade/Paulitec, que cobrará R$ 233.375.000,00 para executar a obra.
> 
> A segunda participante, a Empresa Sul Americana de Montagens S.A., cobraria 232.300.000,00. Mesmo cobrando valor menor, a construtora perdeu por obter notas mais baixas nos quesitos técnicos avaliados pelo Dnit. As duas empresas têm até o dia 2 de maio para entrarem com recursos e, caso necessário, até 9 de maio para apresentarem defesa. Só então o contrato será assinado com a vencedora.


http://g1.globo.com/pr/oeste-sudoes...ruira-nova-ponte-entre-brasil-e-paraguai.html


----------



## Penn's Woods

x-type said:


> i had similar situation  i was driving my sister to airport in Budapest to catch early flight. so, middle of the night, small border crossing (Gola - Berzence), officers are quite surprised to see a car there. just like you, i said jó estét kivánok, he responded me something in hungrian, and i made relaxed face as i understood everything and said "Ferihegy". his response was: "aaa, Ferihegy!", thanked in hungarian and probably wished me nice trip :lol:


Um, What's Ferihegy?


----------



## cinxxx

^^The name of Budapest's airport


----------



## Alex_ZR

cinxxx said:


> ^^The name of Budapest's airport


It's renamed to "Ferenc Liszt" recently.


----------



## xrtn2

italystf said:


> https://www.google.it/maps/place/Bo...2!3m1!1s0x915edf8977bba295:0x1c9ec2bb0115edbf
> The only border crossing between Brazil and Peru is very close to the tripoint with Bolivia. However you cannot cross into Bolivia here, the closest border crossing is 50-60km south.
> 
> In South America there are many pairs of countries that border each other but don't have border crossings:
> - Colombia - Panama
> *- Colombia - Brazil*
> - Colombia - Peru
> - Venezuela - Guyana
> - Suriname - Brazil
> - Suriname - French Guyana (there's a ferry, however)
> - Suriname - Guyana (there's a ferry, however)
> 
> Apart for Colombia-Panama and Venezuela-Guyana, the lack of border crossings isn't related to political issues but to harsh terrain and remoteness.



There is a border crossing between Brazil and Colombia, but the both cities they arent linked to the rest of the countries.

https://maps.google.com/?ll=-4.2318...47911,0.264187&t=h&z=13&lci=com.panoramio.all



Brazil - French Guyana Update


----------



## Singidunum

Speaking of airports check out the http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1654278


----------



## cinxxx

*Montenegro to Albania - Bozhaj/Hani i Hotit*


MNE_M2 - Bozhaj/Hani i Hotit von cinxxx auf Flickr

Things were going very slowly, we waited maybe more then 30 minutes at the MNE side. The Albanian was much quicker. Also 2 checkpoints open in AL, only one in MNE


Bozhaj/Hani i Hotit von cinxxx auf Flickr

This was the first time I saw an RKS plate


Bozhaj/Hani i Hotit von cinxxx auf Flickr


Bozhaj/Hani i Hotit von cinxxx auf Flickr


Bozhaj/Hani i Hotit von cinxxx auf Flickr


Bozhaj/Hani i Hotit von cinxxx auf Flickr


----------



## volodaaaa

cinxxx said:


> Bozhaj/Hani i Hotit von cinxxx auf Flickr



Nice trip...

Btw. Montenegrins definitely stole our Licence plate design :lol:


----------



## alserrod

It's cool.


sorry for OT but I think next step would be a global design for plates (colours, position of letters and numbers...)


----------



## Alex_ZR

volodaaaa said:


> Nice trip...
> 
> Btw. Montenegrins definitely stole our Licence plate design :lol:


Well, not so much. Slovak plates are "LL*NNNLL", while Montenegrin are "LL*LLNNN".


----------



## volodaaaa

Alex_ZR said:


> Well, not so much. Slovak plates are "LL*NNNLL", while Montenegrin are "LL*LLNNN".


Yes, I know.  I meant the font. But alserrod is right, although I don't like it.


The plates are almost completely similar


----------



## Alex_ZR

^^ Type of plates which has the same layout as Slovak ones is Montenegrin *trailer plate*: LL*NNNLL


----------



## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> It's cool.
> 
> 
> sorry for OT but I think next step would be a global design for plates (colours, position of letters and numbers...)


What is it with Europeans and uniformity?! hno:


----------



## Eulanthe

Penn's Woods said:


> What is it with Europeans and uniformity?! hno:


Barriers are vanishing within Europe incredibly quickly. We have common standards for many, many things - car registration plates are a logical extension of that. 

The same uniformity allows us to drive around freely in many different countries without fuss. It was actually positively weird to be asked for a Green Card in Albania, Montenegro and Bosnia - no-one else cared.

Another example : I'm going to Croatia on holidays. Now try and find Croatian Kuna in Poland at a reasonable price. The Euro makes life far, far easier.


----------



## cinxxx

Serbia also asks for the green card. Afaik you won't need it in an EU country.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Sure, but standardizing license plates? The US (and Canada, and Australia....) have been nation-states for far longer than the EU has been in existence and somehow we've never seen the need.


----------



## cinxxx

I like the diversity of the license plates too, you can recognize where a car is from, even without seeing the country band. Of course, some fonts and designs look better, some not so. 
I don't like the font they use on Polish plates... I also liked the old Albanian plates with red band more then the new ones with blue band.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I liked the EU format with the country flag better than the EU format with the EU stars.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Liked, past tense? Did they change it in Poland, did the EU recommend a change EU-wide...?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, the top version is now standard in all EU countries. Several countries used the bottom version in the early 2000s, and sometimes decades before. Norway still uses it.


----------



## Aokromes

alserrod said:


> It's cool.
> 
> 
> sorry for OT but I think next step would be a global design for plates (colours, position of letters and numbers...)


IMHO we must get rid of numbers on plates, 7 letters (only bcdfghjklmnpqrstuvxyz) will give more than enough plates for all europe for a really long time (if adding the numbers without forced location even more).

For example:

0000000
B2DC4D3
ZZZZZZ


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yes, the top version is now standard in all EU countries. Several countries used the bottom version in the early 2000s, and sometimes decades before. Norway still uses it.


Well that's just silly. Makes it more difficult to tell one country from another if you're not close enough to read the letters on the Euroband... And you'd think the EU'd have more important things to worry about. But that (the EU) is your problem, not mine.

And license plates are back in Highways & Autobahns! :cheers:


----------



## Verso

I hate Austrian plates with that tiny white space left on the left side. It looks like a mistake.


----------



## Eulanthe

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Liked, past tense? Did they change it in Poland, did the EU recommend a change EU-wide...?


No, the actual difference is that the "old" format still legally required the oval with the country code. The version with the stars is accepted by all EU countries in comparison. You can still have plates without the EU flag legally, and I think there's nothing actually stopping countries like Poland using the flag rather than the stars - but then you need to have an oval sticker on your car. It's nothing to do with conformity, and everything to do with making life easier. The EU simply mandated that licence plates with the EU flag and country code must be accepted. 



Penn's Woods said:


> Well that's just silly. Makes it more difficult to tell one country from another if you're not close enough to read the letters on the Euroband... And you'd think the EU'd have more important things to worry about.


It's not really relevant in today's Europe where a car is from. I would completely support a system of EU-wide vehicle registration - with randomised plates. Such a system would almost totally eliminate problems with police/random idiots targeting foreigners, just like it did in BiH.

An EU-wide system would also mean that I wouldn't have to carry those stupid vehicle registration documents everywhere.


----------



## Singidunum

Well here if you borrow a car from someone else you also must take the registration. Without it you can have problems, but if you have the registration card on you then it's OK if you get stopped by traffic police. Keeping the registration card in car is considered very reckless.

Of course at some point you will report it but by that time your car is either disassembled or they've made a fake registration.


----------



## MattiG

Singidunum said:


> Not a good idea if the car gets stolen.


It depends on how the system works.

The registration certificate in Finland comes in two parts. The part 1 is a techical one, displays the technical data of the vehicle, and it is a proof of passing the periodic inspection. The part 2 is the proof of ownership. The part 1 must be kept in the vehichle while driving. It is absolutely safe to store it in the glove box and about everyone does that. The part 2 should be kept in a safe place at home.

The part 1 needs to be touched at the periodic inspection, and if a policeman asks for it. No inconvenience involved.


----------



## volodaaaa

MattiG said:


> It depends on how the system works.
> 
> The registration certificate in Finland comes in two parts. The part 1 is a techical one, displays the technical data of the vehicle, and it is a proof of passing the periodic inspection. The part 2 is the proof of ownership. The part 1 must be kept in the vehichle while driving. It is absolutely safe to store it in the glove box and about everyone does that. The part 2 should be kept in a safe place at home.
> 
> The part 1 needs to be touched at the periodic inspection, and if a policeman asks for it. No inconvenience involved.


The same here, although three systems are valid at the same time. Oldest cars have registration card you have too keep with you. Newer cars have the registration document, which is very unpleasant to keep (but it is a must) and the newest cars have the same system as you, but since it has size of a credit car, i keep it in my vallet in the same plastic cover as my driving licence.


----------



## Palance

Border crossings?


----------



## broken0099

ChrisZwolle said:


> I liked the EU format with the country flag better than the EU format with the EU stars.


I've never liked the blue band. I think it would've been much better to keep the background colour (white or yellow), with the country code and the 12 stars in black -and maybe a thin vertical black line between the country code and the rest of the plate.


----------



## Eulanthe

Palance said:


> Border crossings?


Does anyone know how strict the controls were between EEC countries before 1993? I know the Benelux had open borders, but for instance, what about Germany-France?


----------



## Singidunum

MattiG said:


> It depends on how the system works.
> 
> The registration certificate in Finland comes in two parts. The part 1 is a techical one, displays the technical data of the vehicle, and it is a proof of passing the periodic inspection. The part 2 is the proof of ownership. The part 1 must be kept in the vehichle while driving. It is absolutely safe to store it in the glove box and about everyone does that. The part 2 should be kept in a safe place at home.
> 
> The part 1 needs to be touched at the periodic inspection, and if a policeman asks for it. No inconvenience involved.


Yeah, the part 1 in Serbia is a windshield sticker.


----------



## LMB

Singidunum said:


> Keeping the registration card in car is considered very reckless.


Depends on the system. Germans came up with a clever idea of having two copies of the document, one to show to the cops (keep it in the car), and the other is the actual title, which you obviously keep at home. 

So a car stolen with the traditional small document isn't worth much to the thieve.


----------



## LMB

Eulanthe said:


> Does anyone know how strict the controls were between EEC countries before 1993? I know the Benelux had open borders, but for instance, what about Germany-France?


Germany<->France and Germany<->Austria were checked randomly, like go-go-go-check, every third or fifth car. Also depended on the day, and the time of the day. 

All in all it was too risky to smuggle anything big like 10 times the allowed number of cigarettes or amount of alcohol, but I've met people who had no passport dare to go across the border this way (and get caught, and NOT get expelled).

Also my mother as a teenager "smuggled" coffee from Belgium to France, as a part of her ammends. "Girl, you don't go through the crossing, but turn left before, go along the river, there's a small bridge, you'll be in that town" -> obviously this was neither unusual for the locals, nor dangerous. 

So I guess you could compare it to US-Canada border before Bush.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Palance said:


> Border crossings?


Cross one and tell us about it!


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> It wasn't closed, but you couldn't enter Albania just like that, let alone by car. You had to call a taxi cab to pick you up at the border and take you where you wanted to go. At least that's what I read in a book written by a Yugoslav journalist. Unfortunately my mom lent it to someone and never got it back. :bash:


I think it was possible at least for Western tourists to enter Albania, since I read that ferries run regularily between Trieste and Durres since 1983.


----------



## Corvinus

italystf said:


> I think it was possible at least for Western tourists to enter Albania, since I read that ferries run regularily between Trieste and Durres since 1983.


I've read it was well possible to enter as tourist or for business, but full beards were not allowed at entry (since the Hoxha regime declared Albania the first atheist state in the world in the 1960's, and beards were considered "Muslim").


----------



## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> Does anyone know how strict the controls were between EEC countries before 1993? I know the Benelux had open borders, but for instance, what about Germany-France?


My parents were stopped for one hour check. Thet were waiting weird's plate cars and just looking for food as officers said... 


The most strange thing is it was a goods control to quit Germany, nothing to enter in France


----------



## cinxxx

The last of pictures from my Balkan trip...

*Macedonia-Serbia border crossing at Tabanovce/Preševo*


MK_A1 von cinxxx auf Flickr


MK_A1 von cinxxx auf Flickr


MK_A1 von cinxxx auf Flickr


MK_A1 von cinxxx auf Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

*Serbia-Romania border crossing at Vatin/Moraviţa*


SRB_10 von cinxxx auf Flickr


SRB_10 von cinxxx auf Flickr


SRB_10 von cinxxx auf Flickr


RO_DN59 von cinxxx auf Flickr


RO_DN59 von cinxxx auf Flickr


RO_DN59 von cinxxx auf Flickr


----------



## Eulanthe

LMB said:


> Germany<->France and Germany<->Austria were checked randomly, like go-go-go-check, every third or fifth car. Also depended on the day, and the time of the day.


Wow, I'm surprised that Germany-Austria was so light - especially as Austria wasn't in the EEC. Germany-France is more understandable, and I think the original idea for Schengen was probably more about formalising the existing arrangement than anything else.



> Also my mother as a teenager "smuggled" coffee from Belgium to France, as a part of her ammends. "Girl, you don't go through the crossing, but turn left before, go along the river, there's a small bridge, you'll be in that town" -> obviously this was neither unusual for the locals, nor dangerous.


I think that was pretty commonplace among "free" countries of Europe in general. Even these days, it seems that no-one is particularly bothered by illegal border crossings by locals in the Balkans for instance. 

^ what's going on with that fence between Romania and Serbia?


----------



## Verso

cinxxx said:


> SRB_10 von cinxxx auf Flickr


Sign on the left: "_Kompas_ (tourist agency) offers complete services for exit out of Yugoslavia".


----------



## x-type

what are orange Dacias doing at both sides of border?


----------



## cinxxx

^^You both have very keen eyes


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> Sign on the left: "_Kompas_ (tourist agency) offers complete services for exit out of Yugoslavia".


I recognise that name... isn't it the name of the company at the Sentilj border crossing, at the petrol station/restaurant just after the border crossing?

I'm guessing the "services offered" had something to do with the compulsory 'deposit' that Yugoslavians had to make when leaving the country in the 80's?


----------



## nbcee

Singidunum said:


> Serbia and Hungary agreed to open crossings every 20kms instead of the current 55kms.


Yes! It will be much easier to get pljeskavica burgers :banana:


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> See, if those guys can do it, why can't Slovenia and Croatia open up the local border crossings as intrastate crossings?


I don't really miss any more border crossings with Croatia, I only find it stupid that there's not a single international or interstate border crossing over Gorjanci/Žumberak.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> I don't really miss any more border crossings with Croatia, I only find it stupid that there's not a single international or interstate border crossing over Gorjanci/Žumberak.


There are some places where it really wouldn't hurt them to at least open up some tourist crossings, like here - 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/H...2!3m1!1s0x47658e2607b99ee9:0xd57a9b7ffb71939e

or here - https://www.google.com/maps/place/H...2!3m1!1s0x47658e2607b99ee9:0xd57a9b7ffb71939e

The situation on the Slovenian/Croatian border is quite interesting, because in Poland between 2004-2007, it was quite common to see local border crossings completely unguarded.


----------



## Verso

What's the point of a bridge, if you can't use it?


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> What's the point of a bridge, if you can't use it?


I have no idea. I mean, I haven't seen a single patrol by the Croatian or Slovenian police, so I'm guessing that the reality on the ground is that it can be used freely.


----------



## Palance

Verso said:


> I don't really miss any more border crossings with Croatia, I only find it stupid that there's not a single international or interstate border crossing over Gorjanci/&#142;umberak.


Do other EU countries have border crossings for locals only anyway?


----------



## amrapaliinfracon

Wagah border between India & Pakistan.


----------



## stickedy

Palance said:


> Do other EU countries have border crossings for locals only anyway?


There were quite a lot between Germany and Czech Republic before CZ joining Schengen.


----------



## italystf

stickedy said:


> There were quite a lot between Germany and Czech Republic before CZ joining Schengen.


Also between Italy and Slovenia and Italy and Switzerland, before Schengen.


----------



## Penn's Woods

stickedy said:


> There were quite a lot between Germany and Czech Republic before CZ joining Schengen.


For that matter, weren't certain checkpoints along the Berlin Wall reserved for people from certain places? (Here if you're from West Berlin, there if you're from the rest of West Germany, another place if you're from someplace else...nowhere at all if you were from the Eastern bloc?)


----------



## Eulanthe

stickedy said:


> There were quite a lot between Germany and Czech Republic before CZ joining Schengen.


They were all open to locals and EU citizens, as far as I remember. I don't think any of them had any restriction on movement too, unlike the SLO/HR ones. 

I don't know about pre-2004, but in the 2004-2007 period, there were plenty of crossings between PL/CZ and D/CZ that were more or less controlled on a random basis. It seems to have been pretty common for crossings such as Mala Czermna/Cermna to only be controlled on an irregular basis. 

One of the mysteries of pre-Schengen PL/CZ border crossings is why there was a border crossing at the Slaskie Dom, but no actual crossing on top of Sniezka/Snezka.



Penn's Woods said:


> For that matter, weren't certain checkpoints along the Berlin Wall reserved for people from certain places? (Here if you're from West Berlin, there if you're from the rest of West Germany, another place if you're from someplace else...nowhere at all if you were from the Eastern bloc?)


Yes, checkpoints were open for different travellers depending on their citizenship. 

It's worth pointing out that there were checkpoints open for those from the Eastern bloc too provided they had the right documentation.


----------



## Verso

Verso said:


> I don't really miss any more border crossings with Croatia, I only find it stupid that there's not a single international or interstate border crossing over Gorjanci/Žumberak.


Speaking of it, here's the only local border crossing Planina v Podbočju/Novo Selo Žumberačko:









http://www.policija.si/index.php/component/content/article/119-sektor-mejne-policije/526-predstavitev-slovenskih-meja-in-mejnih-prehodov-na-zunanji-schengenski-meji

Location

Croatian side


----------



## OulaL

Palance said:


> Do other EU countries have border crossings for locals only anyway?


Finland has some temporary crossing points with Russia. The use of those points requires a special permit (in addition to the visa which is required anyway, in either direction).

Mostly used by forest industry in areas where the official crossing points may be up to hundreds of kilometres away. North of Ilomantsi the border area is virtually unpopulated anyway.

EDIT: or were we talking about border crossings _between_ EU countries? As most EU countries are Schengen members, and Cyprus, Ireland and UK are island states (with Ireland and UK having an agreement of their own), this question could only be relevant to Bulgaria, Croatia and Romania.


----------



## Verso

Just another boring inner EU "border": Croatian territory occupied by the Slovenian Army. :troll:









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/26706577


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> Finland has some temporary crossing points with Russia. The use of those points requires a special permit (in addition to the visa which is required anyway, in either direction).


There are six of those currently, and they are for Finnish and Russian citizens only. The Parikkala crossing point is the only open in a regular basis and it has some importance for tourism. There are plans to change its status to a normal international border station, but the schedule is open.


----------



## zsimi80

Verso said:


> Just another boring inner EU "border": Croatian territory occupied by the Slovenian Army. :troll:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/26706577


Why? When? How? Where?


----------



## nbcee

Palance said:


> Do other EU countries have border crossings for locals only anyway?


Probably the best one of those was at a small lookout tower of Írottkő/Geschriebenstein on the Hungarian-Austrian border. I've been there a few times and they let us go up the tower without even checking our IDs - and that was before we joined the EU (not to mention the Schengen area).


----------



## Verso

zsimi80 said:


> Why? When? How? Where?


Where: click the link under the photo. Why, when and how: in 1991 the Yugoslav People's Army left the building and we quickly seized it. :troll: (although that was in accordance with Croatia then)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia–Slovenia_border_disputes#Land_dispute_on_Sveta_Gera


----------



## erxgli

*Syria-Turkey international border*



































*A Turkish soldier faces a group of Syrians on the Syria-Turkey border.
*


----------



## alserrod

Glanced in twitter

Police Nationale ‏@PNationale 22 h 
30 #policiers allemands, belges, espagnols ds les villes frontalières de France @policia http://bit.ly/1rsRYit #Sécurité #Coopération #été


and the link





> Les commissariats européens au sein des services de la sécurité publique
> 
> Au cours de l’année 2014, 13 commissariats européens seront mis en place par la direction centrale de la sécurité publique, en lien avec la direction de la coopération internationale (D.C.I.)
> 
> Il étaient présents au Touquet (Enduropale), à Chessy (saison touristique en été), à Nîmes (Feria de la Pentecôte et Feria des Vendanges), à Carcassonne, à Avignon, à Bordeaux-Arcachon, à Marseille, à Lille (grande braderie) ainsi qu’au sein du dispositif policier encadrant le Tour de France.
> Nouveauté pour cette saison, un commissariat européen est implanté dans le département du Calvados à l'occasion des jeux équestres mondiaux (18 août- 9 septembre 2014).
> Une trentaine de policiers européens, de nationalité allemande, espagnole et belge, sera présente avec leurs homologues français pour contribuer à la sécurisation des villes.
> Ces policiers participeront à des patrouilles communes en étant revêtus de leur tenue nationale d’uniforme aux côtés de leurs collègues de la sécurité publique.
> En plus des sites implantés en France, et sur la base du même modèle, 7 policiers français se rendront en Espagne et 2 policiers français se rendront en Allemagne.
> Ils ont été créés pendant l’été 2008, à l’initiative de la présidence française de l’Union européenne, qui s’était fixée comme priorité de renforcer la coopération opérationnelle entre les États membres afin de lutter plus efficacement contre la criminalité et ainsi participer à la consolidation de l’Union européenne comme espace de justice, de liberté et de sécurité.
> Les commissariats européens symbolisent une nouvelle forme de coopération européenne entre les policiers de terrain.


Press release at http://www.police-nationale.interie...-au-sein-des-services-de-la-securite-publique


----------



## Eulanthe

A small question to our Slovenian/Croatian posters on here - can one of you find out if it's possible for locals living near the border to get a pass that allows them to cross the border at any point? 

I've got a feeling that the locals in Bregana/Obrežje have one that allows them to cross at the bridge in the village rather than at the border crossing.


----------



## Verso

What should I enter in Google? :dead:


----------



## Corvinus

Camedo (CH) -> Ribellasca (I) road crossing photographed from train running parallel to it.
July 2014

1. Swiss customs booths









2. Road bridge between the two countries (over _Ri degli Orti_ if I interpret it right from google)









3. Italian customs house, difficult to take photo b/c of full vegetation plus there is some reflection on the pic, like a ghost









4. Now it's definitely _Italia _


----------



## Vrachar

Not exactly the border crossing, but border anyways.

CAN-USA (Boundary bay):

The border stone:








































Facing USA:










Facing Canada:


----------



## Skyline_

Who wants to live just beside the border?


----------



## nbcee

Skyline_ said:


> Who wants to live just beside the border?


Smugglers? :dunno:


----------



## OulaL

Skyline_ said:


> Who wants to live just beside the border?


Why would a place just beside the border be any worse than any other place? At least when assuming two relatively friendly nations, such as USA and Canada?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Living close to a border can be beneficial. For example having the opportunity to purchase goods at lower prices across the border.


----------



## italystf

Note the difference:

USA-Mexico border









USA-Canada border


----------



## Skyline_

OulaL said:


> Why would a place just beside the border be any worse than any other place? At least when assuming two relatively friendly nations, such as USA and Canada?


Because you are more exposed to illegal trespassing. You don't want illegal immigrants hiding in your backyard, for instance...


----------



## keokiracer

Skyline_ said:


> Because you are more exposed to illegal trespassing. You don't want illegal immigrants hiding in your backyard, for instance...


Oh yes, those pesky illegal Canadian immigrants. Constantly saying sorry all the time!


----------



## italystf

Well, there are even some houses and a public library divided by the US-Canada border. In some rural areas it's possible to cross that border without being noticed, although it's technically illegal. It's not anything close to borders such USA-Mexico or Spain-Morocco, that are heavily guarded and you can be shot if you try to cross illegally.


----------



## g.spinoza

Ancient border marker (1823) between Savoy and France, at ~2300 m near Lac de Bellety (Vallée Etroite), now inside France.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Skyline_ said:


> Who wants to live just beside the border?


Plenty of people do....


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> A small question to our Slovenian/Croatian posters on here - can one of you find out if it's possible for locals living near the border to get a pass that allows them to cross the border at any point?
> 
> I've got a feeling that the locals in Bregana/Obrežje have one that allows them to cross at the bridge in the village rather than at the border crossing.


Ok, I've found some info (it was very easy to find actually). I don't think they can cross the border at _any_ point, but at certain points. However, only with legitimate reasons. Throw this into Google Translate.


----------



## Eulanthe

Perfect, thank you!

I wondered because this fat Croatian border guard chased me away from an unofficial crossing in Bregana, but let some locals through without fuss. Apparently wanting to look at the border crossing wasn't allowed 

I think this border pass explains why the police aren't really bothering to control the border away from official border crossings - there can't be many people hanging around the border in rural areas


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> Apparently wanting to look at the border crossing wasn't allowed


You should be able to look at it as long as you don't cross the border. :dunno: But yes, it's usually not a good idea to get too close.


----------



## OulaL

Skyline_ said:


> Because you are more exposed to illegal trespassing. You don't want illegal immigrants hiding in your backyard, for instance...


That's probably a Hellenic point of view, maybe you just haven't got your share of nice neighbours (no offence anyone...!) but I can only assume that U.S.Americans and Canadians don't see it this way.


----------



## Corvinus

OulaL said:


> That's probably a Hellenic point of view, maybe you just haven't got your share of nice neighbours (no offence anyone...!) but I can only assume that U.S.Americans and Canadians don't see it this way.


Well, after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, the border to Canada was actually a subject of debates - as potential backdoor for Islamist terrorists wanting to sneak in ...
I have never crossed that border but heard from others that in the 1990's still, a simple driver's license was sufficient to pass - and things have gotten a lot stricter since.


----------



## Stainless

Corvinus said:


> Well, after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, the border to Canada was actually a subject of debates - as potential backdoor for Islamist terrorists wanting to sneak in ...
> I have never crossed that border but heard from others that in the 1990's still, a simple driver's license was sufficient to pass - and things have gotten a lot stricter since.


I heard this change was implemented quite quickly, meaning some people had to rush to get passports to cross when one was not needed before.

On the subject of locals-only border crossings, are there any NEXUS only crossings on the US-Canada border?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Corvinus said:


> Well, after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, the border to Canada was actually a subject of debates - as potential backdoor for Islamist terrorists wanting to sneak in ...
> I have never crossed that border but heard from others that in the 1990's still, a simple driver's license was sufficient to pass - and things have gotten a lot stricter since.


Yes, an ID - such as a driver's license - and your word was enough. Until well after 2001.

By "your word," I mean they asked you what country you were a citizen of and you told them.

(And not just a potential back door, but that one actual incident of the so-called Millennium Bomber. Don't get me wrong, though: I love Canada and think that that border should be as easy as possible to cross. Actually, a friend I was just talking to today spent the weekend in Ottawa and was complaining about the "woman at the border" on the way home. Didn't go into it in detail, though....)


----------



## Penn's Woods

Stainless said:


> I heard this change was implemented quite quickly, meaning some people had to rush to get passports to cross when one was not needed before.
> 
> On the subject of locals-only border crossings, are there any NEXUS only crossings on the US-Canada border?


I don't know how quickly the change was implemented, but it certainly wasn't right away after 9/11. (Well, maybe the requirement to be able to prove citizenship was implemented right away, but you don't actually need a passport as far as I know - I used my birth certificate in 2003. My passport at the time was expired. Since then I've used my (new) passport, but I got one so I'd be able to go elsewhere.)


----------



## Eulanthe

Stainless said:


> On the subject of locals-only border crossings, are there any NEXUS only crossings on the US-Canada border?


The Whirlpool Bridge in Buffalo is Nexus-only, apparently. From looking around, it seems to be the only one. It's strange, because you'd think that Nexus-only crossings would make sense in places like Stanstead-Derby Line.


----------



## Skyline_

keokiracer said:


> Oh yes, those pesky illegal Canadian immigrants. Constantly saying sorry all the time!


What if they are terrorists? :cheers:



OulaL said:


> That's probably a Hellenic point of view, maybe you just haven't got your share of nice neighbours (no offence anyone...!) but I can only assume that U.S.Americans and Canadians don't see it this way.


Living next to a border crossing is a challenge, in any way you look at it.


----------



## Road_UK

Skyline_ said:


> What if they are terrorists? :cheers:
> 
> Living next to a border crossing is a challenge, in any way you look at it.


Probably where you are.


----------



## LMB

I've never crossed the US-Canada border, but judring by its length, it is certainly impossible to guard all of it. Surely it is easy to spot somebody crossing near a busy road, but what about this? http://goo.gl/maps/kBjFo

Or check this scarry barrier out  http://goo.gl/maps/hxmXK

Surely locals are brainwashed into "looking for the wrong types", but the 9/11 terrorist weren't exactly the kind of types to wear loose dresses and long beards. 

Bottom line: scare your own nation, it will be easier to control. At the some time remind the northern neighbour who they depend on.


----------



## Proof Sheet

LMB said:


> I've never crossed the US-Canada border, but judring by its length, it is certainly impossible to guard all of it. Surely it is easy to spot somebody crossing near a busy road, but what about this? http://goo.gl/maps/kBjFo
> 
> Or check this scarry barrier out  http://goo.gl/maps/hxmXK
> 
> Surely locals are brainwashed into "looking for the wrong types", but the 9/11 terrorist weren't exactly the kind of types to wear loose dresses and long beards.
> 
> Bottom line: scare your own nation, it will be easier to control. At the some time remind the northern neighbour who they depend on.


This isn't too far away

http://goo.gl/maps/S3nP6

I was here last summer. The mailbox is for the house on the left but is for US mail for the house which has the border going through it. About 3/4 of the house is in Canada and about 1/4 in the US. There is a house to the south within throwing distance in the US. Now the border is closed and there is a fence. However the border cairn is north of the fence by a few metres.

Here are the photos I took. A very quiet spot on the US/Canada border

http://www.panoramio.com/user/3311774

I have other photos of Jamieson's Line and 

here 

http://goo.gl/maps/f6m2B


----------



## alserrod

Irun is a Spanish city located in the Basque country. It is boundaring with France (https://www.google.es/maps/place/Ir...m2!3m1!1s0xd51088ba8674817:0x86ff9f9180d14bb8) in the Atlantic ocean. The border is a river and for a long time Irun-Hendaye had only a bridge as border (and the railway). By the way, an important meeting took place in Hendaye while the WWII that could had change it.


But... Irun was looking back to France when the "Spanish closure" (the period that wasn't easy at all to go out of Spain) and remained as a single city, an important in the area with the case that they could grow only in one direction.

Today there aren't border booths and you can see a metropolitan area from St. Sebastian to Bayonne with the border in the middle... but the elderly people remember them with the river as a fence.


----------



## Kanadzie

Corvinus said:


> Well, after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, the border to Canada was actually a subject of debates - as potential backdoor for Islamist terrorists wanting to sneak in ...
> I have never crossed that border but heard from others that in the 1990's still, a simple driver's license was sufficient to pass - and things have gotten a lot stricter since.


Actually in 1990's it was simple verbal declaration "what is your citizenship" "OK go" (if Canadian. If you were from some country requiring visa or similar, would need one)

After 9/11 became requirement for the driver's license thing, and only after 2007-2008 became necessary to have passport or "enhanced" driver's license (with citizenship note and RFID chip)

However the 9/11 terrorists did not pass this border, and one islamic terrorist did, the "Millenium Bomber" in late 1999, who wished to blow up LA airport. He specificially chose an "easy" border point to sneak across, travelling ca. 5000 km from where he lived (east to west Canada).

But even then, the "lax" security caught him immediately (I guess, the nice lady asked "what is the purpose of your trip?" and he answered "destroy America!", "OK, why don't you have a seat over here" :lol

So all the extra security is stupid considering the old system worked perfectly...



Eulanthe said:


> The Whirlpool Bridge in Buffalo is Nexus-only, apparently. From looking around, it seems to be the only one. It's strange, because you'd think that Nexus-only crossings would make sense in places like Stanstead-Derby Line.


I believe there are NEXUS-only booths at Lacolle-Champlain and Stanstead-Derby Line. The bridges on the Niagara River are particular as there is huge traffic, and could warrant NEXUS-only bridge. The problem with having the simple booth, is there is often traffic backups on the bridge, so would still have to wait to cross. The Quebec crossings are much more common and have no space restrictions as they are on dry land. At Stanstead, I have no number, but the NEXUS-users must be less than 10% of travellers...


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^There is definitely at least one NEXUS-only lane at Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle (I-87/Autoroute 15 - on the New York/Montreal freeway route), at least northbound.


----------



## El Tiburon

Penn's Woods said:


> I don't know how quickly the change was implemented, but it certainly wasn't right away after 9/11. (Well, maybe the requirement to be able to prove citizenship was implemented right away, but you don't actually need a passport as far as I know - I used my birth certificate in 2003. My passport at the time was expired. Since then I've used my (new) passport, but I got one so I'd be able to go elsewhere.)


Under the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative, fully implemented now, a passport or passport card is required for land travel between Canada or Mexico and the United States.


----------



## Eulanthe

Kanadzie said:


> I believe there are NEXUS-only booths at Lacolle-Champlain and Stanstead-Derby Line. The bridges on the Niagara River are particular as there is huge traffic, and could warrant NEXUS-only bridge. The problem with having the simple booth, is there is often traffic backups on the bridge, so would still have to wait to cross. The Quebec crossings are much more common and have no space restrictions as they are on dry land. At Stanstead, I have no number, but the NEXUS-users must be less than 10% of travellers...


What I don't understand is why they don't introduce NEXUS-only crossings in places where it would suit the locals. For instance - outside that famous library in Stanstead/Derby Line, wouldn't it actually make sense to install a NEXUS-only crossing for pedestrians there? As I understand it, the NEXUS cards are RFID-equipped, so it should be a simple process to set up some readers. 

I understand not allowing vehicular traffic, but allowing locals to travel freely across the border makes sense. Back it up with random spot checks and everything will be fine.

With respects to Irun, does anyone know where trucks would have cleared customs? There's a very large grassy area in Irun here - https://www.google.com/maps/@43.348...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1stF8YoN8s3nQ2pocFKQmIzQ!2e0 - would this have been the site?


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## alserrod

I do not know about Irun customs... but I know that there are some places, not near of border areas at all, where you can declare goods to export anywhere. Customs will give you documentation and you can move free within EU.

(obviously if the freight doesn't match with the document it is smuggling)


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## Penn's Woods

El Tiburon said:


> Under the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative, fully implemented now, a passport or passport card is required for land travel between Canada or Mexico and the United States.


Duly noted.
I don't - well, didn't - know what the rule was now... At the time of my 2006 trip I was looking into whether I needed a passport but resolved the issue for myself by just deciding I might as well get one, and since then I just take it when I go to Canada.


----------



## javimix19

alserrod said:


> Irun is a Spanish city located in the Basque country. It is boundaring with France (https://www.google.es/maps/place/Ir...m2!3m1!1s0xd51088ba8674817:0x86ff9f9180d14bb8) in the Atlantic ocean. The border is a river and for a long time Irun-Hendaye had only a bridge as border (and the railway). By the way, an important meeting took place in Hendaye while the WWII that could had change it.
> 
> 
> But... Irun was looking back to France when the "Spanish closure" (the period that wasn't easy at all to go out of Spain) and remained as a single city, an important in the area with the case that they could grow only in one direction.
> 
> Today there aren't border booths and you can see a metropolitan area from St. Sebastian to Bayonne with the border in the middle... but the elderly people remember them with the river as a fence.


Yes Alserrod, I live near Irun and I pass the frontier some days during month. I never have any problem and I'm proud to live near the frontier. I can go by car, metro and train. Since I was 10 years old I can cross frontier without any control.

I think that it was good to all towns and cities around or near the frontiers. (yes, I know that it was good to all countries of Europe) because tourism and commerce has growth a lot since 1995. And europeans of both side we can meet better and do good relationships.

Well, in Hendaye 50% of homes are property of spaniards. Majority from Gipuzkoa, Navarre and Biscay. 

In terms of transport infraestructures, housing, public transport, sport infraestructures, Healthcare, Environment... I think that there are not diferences between South Basque Country and North Basque Country. The biggest difference are salaries, pensions, unemployment, etc. This is a country diference.

Well, France is France, and Spain is Spain.


----------



## Kanadzie

Eulanthe said:


> What I don't understand is why they don't introduce NEXUS-only crossings in places where it would suit the locals. For instance - outside that famous library in Stanstead/Derby Line, wouldn't it actually make sense to install a NEXUS-only crossing for pedestrians there? As I understand it, the NEXUS cards are RFID-equipped, so it should be a simple process to set up some readers.
> 
> I understand not allowing vehicular traffic, but allowing locals to travel freely across the border makes sense. Back it up with random spot checks and everything will be fine.
> 
> With respects to Irun, does anyone know where trucks would have cleared customs? There's a very large grassy area in Irun here - https://www.google.com/maps/@43.348...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1stF8YoN8s3nQ2pocFKQmIzQ!2e0 - would this have been the site?


I don't think there are enough pedestrians in Derby Line / Stanstead to warrant it... NEXUS still requires either the border guard to look at your, or the automated system to scan your retinas (action movie style, used in airports). For the library there might be like 5 people who will go inside and outside during a whole day, it makes no sense to pay a guard to stand there, so instead they pay a guard to sit there in a SUV and if you leave the library and go to a different country than you came from he will yell at you :lol: 

Also if there is no waiting time at a crossing, NEXUS probably doesn't save much time compared to the passport.


----------



## Eulanthe

Kanadzie said:


> I don't think there are enough pedestrians in Derby Line / Stanstead to warrant it... NEXUS still requires either the border guard to look at your, or the automated system to scan your retinas (action movie style, used in airports). For the library there might be like 5 people who will go inside and outside during a whole day, it makes no sense to pay a guard to stand there, so instead they pay a guard to sit there in a SUV and if you leave the library and go to a different country than you came from he will yell at you :lol:


With all the technology available now, is there really any need to have a guard there at all? Cameras could monitor the area, and an automated system to do retina scans could allow border crossings. If it's really such a huge deal for the US, then they could easily have a guard sitting in an office somewhere watching the camera system and granting permission to cross on an individual basis. 

But really, the most sensible solution is to have a system for locals living in such areas. They should be able to cross the border freely with border passes, and anyone wanting such a pass should agree to be vetted by the USA and Canada. Then there would be no more stupid stories about people getting arrested while going for pizza and so on.


----------



## Kanadzie

Realistically it is important to note the primary purpose of Canadian border control is preventing or hindering cross-border shopping, anything that would let Canadians bring in booze, smokes, gasoline and TV sets from Vermont without getting dinged on taxes would not go over well  This despite "free trade" agreement 

What is really needed is a Schengen-style system, which can work quite effectively as seen in the EU. Americans worry about terrorists but it isn't really an issue (though I guess, the maniac from France shooting up Jews in Belgie is a bad example)


----------



## Eulanthe

Kanadzie said:


> Realistically it is important to note the primary purpose of Canadian border control is preventing or hindering cross-border shopping, anything that would let Canadians bring in booze, smokes, gasoline and TV sets from Vermont without getting dinged on taxes would not go over well  This despite "free trade" agreement


True, but that could easily be curtailed by not allowing the import of anything over a very limited amount through such crossings. If I remember rightly, the local border crossings in Europe (for instance, CZ/PL) didn't allow people to export/import anything other than what would normally be duty free. 

One way to enforce it would be to require everything to be hand carried, and another way would be to prohibit anyone taking goods valued more than (for instance) $50 across those unmanned crossings, along with completely banning the transport of cigarettes/alcohol/etc. 



> What is really needed is a Schengen-style system, which can work quite effectively as seen in the EU. Americans worry about terrorists but it isn't really an issue (though I guess, the maniac from France shooting up Jews in Belgie is a bad example)


Yes, I don't understand why Canada and the USA don't implement a mini-Schengen system. The whole point of Schengen is that the border vanishes, but then border controls can be carried out anywhere at any time. It would surely make more sense than bothering to monitor an incredibly open border anyway.


----------



## LMB

Kanadzie said:


> What is really needed is a Schengen-style system, which can work quite effectively as seen in the EU. Americans worry about terrorists but it isn't really an issue (though I guess, the maniac from France shooting up Jews in Belgie is a bad example)


My mother, as a teenager in late 60's, was 'smuggling':lol: coffee from Belgium to France. It was like "go along the road, over the bridge [this was the border], the shop is on the left". 

There was border control only on the main road. This was never a guarded border, all they looked was cigarettes.


----------



## Verso

You should've seen smuggling of coffee, clothes etc. from Italy and Austria into Yugoslavia. :lol:


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## volodaaaa

I remember times in early 90s when it was pretty common to see different families in cars in closest rest areas near border crossings, attempting to hide all pieces of risky goods somewhere in the car or luggage.


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## OulaL

There is still a lot of alcohol smuggling from Finland and Sweden (EU) to Norway (not EU). There is no systematic control but random checks that may occur even on small forest trails barely passable by car, as well as the E6 (the only motorway crossing the Norwegian border).

Many tourists don't even know the Norwegian import limits, which are pretty strict.


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## ChrisZwolle

http://www.toll.no/templates_TAD/Newsitem.aspx?id=301564&epslanguage=no

People try to smuggle thousands of liters of beer or tens of thousands of cigarettes into Norway frequently.

One guy attempted to smuggle 2,400 liters of beer into Norway. http://www.toll.no/upload/Bilder/be...ndheim 2400 liter øl Stjørdal 19 mai 2014.jpg


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> One guy attempted to smuggle 2,400 liters of beer into Norway. http://www.toll.no/upload/Bilder/be...ndheim 2400 liter øl Stjørdal 19 mai 2014.jpg


obviously from Poland


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## Kanadzie

seeing the pallets full of such delicious and correctly priced beer like that at any Biedronka made me want to do the same thing to Canada


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## Alqaszar

> x-type


Polish "foreign aid" to poor Norwegians who have to stand the subarctic darkness and/or cold with out the help of good øl.

Ok, currently at Oslo 22C/81F and barely dark due to summer, but what about Kirkenes and what about december?


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> There is still a lot of alcohol smuggling from Finland and Sweden (EU) to Norway (not EU). There is no systematic control but random checks that may occur even on small forest trails barely passable by car, as well as the E6 (the only motorway crossing the Norwegian border).
> 
> Many tourists don't even know the Norwegian import limits, which are pretty strict.


The control is not very systematic. 

The northernmost alcohol store in the EU is located in a tiny Finnish village of Nuorgam at the Norwegian border. Its sales figures are astronomical, and most clients are Norwegians. The sales of the Norwegian monopoly shop in Vadsø dropped more than 30 per cent after the shop in Nuorgam was opened. This would not be possible without rather loose a control at the border. Somebody is caught occasionally, but that does not ruin the business case.


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## ChrisZwolle

MattiG said:


> Nuorgam ... Vadsø


These towns are like 2.5 hours apart. The length people go through to get drunk. :cheers:


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## Road_UK

It gets cheaper as you go south. The Norwegians get their booze from Sweden, the Swedish from Denmark (they're always drunk on that ferry) and the Danish from Germany. (large booze cash and carry in Puttgarden)


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## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> These towns are like 2.5 hours apart. The length people go through to get drunk. :cheers:


 Well... No. For a large population in the northern Norway, Nuorgam is closer than Vadsø.


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## Eulanthe

Road_UK said:


> It gets cheaper as you go south. The Norwegians get their booze from Sweden, the Swedish from Denmark (they're always drunk on that ferry) and the Danish from Germany. (large booze cash and carry in Puttgarden)


And Poles from the Czech Republic :lol:


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## volodaaaa

Eulanthe said:


> And Poles from the Czech Republic :lol:


To me, Czech are more soft-booze (beer, wine) oriented. But their beer is indeed the best


----------



## bogdymol

I think this fits in here...



> *How to Refuse an Immigration Checkpoint in Just Under 2 Minutes*
> 
> DHS agents have recently set up constitutionally-questionable “security checkpoints” up to 100 miles inside U.S. territory.
> 
> If you should drive into one of these roadblocks, you are not required to answer the agent’s questions (usually starting with “Are you a United States citizen?”). Nor are you required to consent to any searches.
> 
> [...]


thefreethoughtproject.com


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Mexico has such checkpoints deep within their territory as well.


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## Penn's Woods

Well, what is the law? I was ready to click "like" - particularly if those are Arizona state officials as opposed to federal (which isn't clear) - but when I read the article for an answer to that question (if they're state or federal), and didn't get an answer so then read the comments....

My instinct as an educated American citizen who knows the basics of our Constitution is to assume that stopping everyone, that far from the border, is illegal (particularly if state officials are doing it), just like the NSA's practices are outrageously illegal...just like the customs agent who asked *me* where I was spending the night when I entered Maine from Canada last October was probably out of line. (I had an urge to say, "I'm entering my own country; is that any of your business?" But I didn't.) But that's my instinct. I don't actually know.


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## Road_UK

And I wonder in what extend it is legal in Europe. In both France and Germany and on one occasion in Belgium I get stopped a lot by customs pretty far inland. And apart from the regular stop and search procedures I get asked a lot of questions as well. "where did you come from, where are you going, how long have you been here, how long have you been there"...

Areas I got or get stopped on a regular basis are...

France: Rouen, Paris, Lyon, Bordeaux, Orleans, Strasbourg, Thionville, Dunkerque, Calais, Boulogne, Abbeville, Perpignan, ...

Germany: Cologne, Munich, Rosenheim, Mannheim, Wiesbaden, Hanover...

Belgium: Jabbeke


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## Penn's Woods

^^Orléans? Can't get much farther from a border than that....


----------



## Road_UK

Same with Rouen. But both places are on a major route from Spain to northern Europe and UK. Spanish trucks everywhere. Customs usually await you at the toll booths, although one time between Valence and Lyon I got treated by 5 motorbikes surrounding me and escorting me to the next exit where they did the search. But French law enforcement officers are very correct and friendly and always in for a laugh and a joke and handshakes after, unlike those German no-humor-miserable-gestapo dickheads.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^
Well, Rouen's reasonably close to a port of entry. (Is it one itself, actually?) But Orléans is nowhere near anything of that sort other than international airports. And if proximity to airports constitutes proximity to a border, there's not much that's off limits to customs and immigration checks.

Come to think of it, the suspect in the Brussels Jewish museum shooting who was arrested at Marseille (after having traveled the length of France)...was that customs or regular police? I know I heard they were looking for drugs and sort of lucked out by stumbling on him and his cache of guns....


----------



## Eulanthe

Road_UK said:


> And I wonder in what extend it is legal in Europe.


It's absolutely legal. What most people don't realise is that Schengen didn't abolish border controls, but in fact made it legal to carry out border controls anywhere in the entire zone. The border moved from the physical border line to the entire area, which is what makes Schengen work (combined with the hard outer border). 

Having said that, Schengen does still retain the idiotic requirement to carry ID to cross the border.


----------



## Road_UK

^ Not just across the border. In the Netherlands you have to have ID on you at all times.


----------



## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^
> Well, Rouen's reasonably close to a port of entry. (Is it one itself, actually?) But Orléans is nowhere near anything of that sort other than international airports. And if proximity to airports constitutes proximity to a border, there's not much that's off limits to customs and immigration checks.
> 
> Come to think of it, the suspect in the Brussels Jewish museum shooting who was arrested at Marseille (after having traveled the length of France)...was that customs or regular police? I know I heard they were looking for drugs and sort of lucked out by stumbling on him and his cache of guns....


Rouen isn't anywhere near a port of entry. Caen, Le Havre, Calais and Cherbourg are quite far away.


----------



## Penn's Woods

I'd describe it as "reasonably close" to Le Havre. Certainly much less than the 100 miles that there was some talk of in that Arizona thing.


----------



## Road_UK

Well, either way, at Rouen they are targeting traffic coming from Spain going anywhere else...


----------



## MichiH

Road_UK said:


> ^ Not just across the border. In the Netherlands you have to have ID on you at all times.


In Germany too.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Are the police allowed to stop anyone, anywhere, at any time, at random, or do they need a reason?

(This question is for anywhere in Europe...Carrying ID is not required in the US, although it's a good idea, and what I use is my driver's license. Guidebooks to Europe warn Americans to carry passports at all times. Just curious.)


----------



## MichiH

Yes, it is allowed. The ID is like you driver's license.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Well, random checks aren't allowed here.


----------



## Road_UK

These random checks by the police in Germany gives an impression that German is a true police state. I was on my way once from the UK to Hungary, and they stopped me at Straubing on the A3. I had to follow them into a police station, and had to sit there for over an hour as they conducted a search. I haven had to pee in a cup to do a drug test. And at another event they stopped me at Rosenheim and even went through my phone. I'm not sure if they're allowed to do that...


----------



## Skyline_

Road_UK said:


> These random checks by the police in Germany gives an impression that German is a true police state. I was on my way once from the UK to Hungary, and they stopped me at Straubing on the A3. I had to follow them into a police station, and had to sit there for over an hour as they conducted a search. I haven had to pee in a cup to do a drug test. And at another event they stopped me at Rosenheim and even went through my phone. I'm not sure if they're allowed to do that...


Merkel rulezzzzz! :banana:

Seriously now, Schengen is the best thing to ever come out, because of the EU.
If the EU wasn't founded in the first place, I doubt the Schengen Area would have ever been made. The Schengen Agreement should last forever... It must include all European countries in the future.


----------



## cinxxx

We all now there is no place for humor at work in Germany. You leave it outside of the work place and take it back when you make Feierabend. So ironic they call the evening after work celebrating evening :lol:

This is why people from outside judge them as "no-humor-miserable-gestapo dickheads" :lol: To Germans it's perfectly normal behavior


----------



## Road_UK

Skyline_ said:


> Merkel rulezzzzz! :banana:
> 
> Seriously now, Schengen is the best thing to ever come out, because of the EU.
> If the EU wasn't founded in the first place, I doubt the Schengen Area would have ever been made. The Schengen Agreement should last forever... It must include all European countries in the future.


It'd be nice but I don't think it will be happening. You can count Britain out for starters. They'll insist in keeping control of their own borders. Can't blame them really. Everybody wants to move to the UK, and they're building camps in Calais and await their chance to smuggle themselves in, usually on the back of a lorry. The British Border agency have a lot more work going on in Calais than the French police in Dover. Half of the time they don't even look at your passport anymore...


----------



## Road_UK

cinxxx said:


> We all now there is no place for humor at work in Germany. You leave it outside of the work place and take it back when you make Feierabend. So ironic they call the evening after work celebrating evening :lol:
> 
> This is why people from outside judge them as "no-humor-miserable-gestapo dickheads" :lol: To Germans it's perfectly normal behavior


Q: How do you start a German joke?

A: By looking over your shoulder first.


----------



## cinxxx




----------



## Road_UK

LOL @ 1.25

"Is there any reason you want to check my trunk?"
"well, Idunno, you car is dirty..."


----------



## MichiH

cinxxx said:


> We all now there is no place for humor at work in Germany.


You should add, that you are kidding. Work is also a perfect place for humor in Germany.


----------



## Road_UK

Without any form of registration?


----------



## Skyline_

Road_UK said:


> It'd be nice but I don't think it will be happening. You can count Britain out for starters. They'll insist in keeping control of their own borders. Can't blame them really. Everybody wants to move to the UK, and they're building camps in Calais and await their chance to smuggle themselves in, usually on the back of a lorry. The British Border agency have a lot more work going on in Calais than the French police in Dover. Half of the time they don't even look at your passport anymore...


Britain belongs to Europe. Schengen and the euro will prevail. Why? Because they can.... :cheers:


----------



## Road_UK

There'll most probably be a referendum soon. Time will tell if this is what the British people want. If they don't then it is not happening. It's called democracy. And Britain does not belong to Europe. Britain belongs to Britain. When they entered Normandy in 1944, they did not enter to surrender to Europe!


----------



## cinxxx

MichiH said:


> You should add, that you are kidding. Work is also a perfect place for humor in Germany.


Actually it was sarcastic 
I am happy though that at my current place of work we are having fun often. 

But at my first place I worked here it was horrible, it was exactly as I described it. My team leader told me I am not allowed to browse the Internet, I told him, I have to read/write an E-Mail or make a money transfer, at least, he said I have to do this at home (it doesn't matter if it's urgent or not). He also told me, if I would stay longer then 10 minutes at the toilet I have to check out the time from my work time. And that for having fun, there are organized team events. 

I was shocked, it was a horrible time for me, I got depressed, I wanted to go back home...

Anyway, I will end the off-topic here


----------



## MichiH

Road_UK said:


> It's called democracy. And Britain does not belong to Europe. Britain belongs to Britain.


Maybe Scotland does not belong to Britain but to "Schengen"..... Call it democracy or just crazy...


----------



## Road_UK

A referendum will tell.


----------



## OulaL

MichiH said:


> Yes, it is allowed. The ID is like you driver's license.


In Finland though the driver's license is also the ID for all purposes (proving your identity to police, voting, withdrawing cash from bank account and so on) - so many people who drive a car and don't travel abroad actually don't have any other kind of ID at all. It actually came as a surprise that in many EU countries it is not so.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Skyline_ said:


> Merkel rulezzzzz! :banana:
> 
> Seriously now, Schengen is the best thing to ever come out, because of the EU.
> If the EU wasn't founded in the first place, I doubt the Schengen Area would have ever been made. The Schengen Agreement should last forever... *It must include all European countries in the future.*


_YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED!_ :troll:


----------



## Kanadzie

Penn's Woods said:


> Well, what is the law? I was ready to click "like" - particularly if those are Arizona state officials as opposed to federal (which isn't clear) - but when I read the article for an answer to that question (if they're state or federal), and didn't get an answer so then read the comments....
> 
> My instinct as an educated American citizen who knows the basics of our Constitution is to assume that stopping everyone, that far from the border, is illegal (particularly if state officials are doing it), just like the NSA's practices are outrageously illegal...just like the customs agent who asked *me* where I was spending the night when I entered Maine from Canada last October was probably out of line. (I had an urge to say, "I'm entering my own country; is that any of your business?" But I didn't.) But that's my instinct. I don't actually know.


I got caught at one of these once. It was in White River Junction VT where I-89 and I-91 meet each other, they were stopping everyone, asking all kinds of crazy questions and wanted my driver's license (pre-passport time, probably 2006 ish). I was really surprised and confused as to the legality of that.


----------



## Skyline_

Road_UK said:


> There'll most probably be a referendum soon. Time will tell if this is what the British people want. If they don't then it is not happening. It's called democracy. And Britain does not belong to Europe. Britain belongs to Britain. When they entered Normandy in 1944, they did not enter to surrender to Europe!


There is no democracy.... After all, Scotland was annexed to England without a referendum, centuries ago. It's all about political will and decisions. Democracy does not really exist. Because you vote once in 4 years, it doesn't mean you have control over anything at all. hno: It doesn't even matter whom you vote for. You may even vote for UKIP and then Nigel is bribed and decides to change his anti-EU rhetoric. Don't confuse pseudo-democracy with the concept of democracy that doesn't really exist.


----------



## Skyline_

Penn's Woods said:


> _YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED!_ :troll:


That's the idea!


----------



## Road_UK

Skyline_ said:


> There is no democracy.... After all, Scotland was annexed to England without a referendum, centuries ago. It's all about political will and decisions. Democracy does not really exist. Because you vote once in 4 years, it doesn't mean you have control over anything at all. hno: It doesn't even matter whom you vote for. You may even vote for UKIP and then Nigel is bribed and decides to change his anti-EU rhetoric. Don't confuse pseudo-democracy with the concept of democracy that doesn't really exist.


I'm taking this to the Roadside Rest Area.


----------



## Eulanthe

MichiH said:


> In Germany too.


Actually, no you don't. There's an obligation to identify yourself if requested, but you don't actually have to have the ID on you at the time. 

In practice, the Germans will ask first of all for a form of ID if you don't have a passport/ID card. That means a driving licence for most people. If you don't have that, then they will ask for a name/address and try and check it out via their own systems. If you can't provide a German address, you don't have any form of ID and you don't seem to have EU citizenship - then there's a chance that you'll get detained until you prove your right to be there.

In my experience, they were always happy with a Polish driving licence, though with a question as to why I had a PL licence and not a GB one.


----------



## MichiH

^^ You are right. But you could be detained. So it is recommended to have an ID at all time


----------



## Road_UK

Do the Germans have the right to detain you without plausible cause??


----------



## bogdymol

Here's a question for which I don't have an answer: last week I flew from München Airport to London Gatwick Airport. 

On departure from München, there was customs control for exiting Germany (had to show my ID card or passport). While entering UK at London Gatwick there was another customs control (for entering UK). 

On departure from London Gatwick there was *no customs control* (for exiting UK), but just at München Airport, for entering Germany.

Why there was no control for exiting UK, while there is one for exiting Germany? Same thing happened to me in 2009 while leaving USA (no control on exiting the country).


----------



## volodaaaa

Perhaps UK has nothing to steal from


----------



## MichiH

I always had two ID checks when I flew to a non-Schengen-country, e.g. Germany-USA, Germany-Romania, Germany-Canada, Austria-Romania.
There are also ID checks Germany-Italy (not always).


----------



## Eulanthe

Road_UK said:


> Do the Germans have the right to detain you without plausible cause??


Yes, if you can't prove your identity to the satisfaction of the person asking. There's not really such a concept as "plausible cause" in Schengen, as border controls can be carried out anywhere at any time.



bogdymol said:


> Here's a question for which I don't have an answer


Basically, the UK doesn't have systematic exit checks. There are sometimes checks (especially at Dover and Heathrow), but it's not routine. They were supposed to introduce exit passport checks, but I think the issue of not having separate domestic/international airside lounges has put a stop to that idea.

The lack of exit checks has always been an odd one, especially now with the over-the-top paranoia of the UK border security.


----------



## Kanadzie

bogdymol said:


> Why there was no control for exiting UK, while there is one for exiting Germany? Same thing happened to me in 2009 while leaving USA (no control on exiting the country).


US, Canada and I guess also UK have no exit check, that's like East-Germany level stuff :lol:



Eulanthe said:


> In my experience, they were always happy with a Polish driving licence, though with a question as to why I had a PL licence and not a GB one.


Was the answer "I am hoping they issue the speeding ticket to my real name, Prawo Jazdy"? :lol: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7899171.stm


----------



## Penn's Woods

Skyline_ said:


> There is no democracy.... After all, Scotland was annexed to England without a referendum, centuries ago. It's all about political will and decisions. Democracy does not really exist. Because you vote once in 4 years, it doesn't mean you have control over anything at all. hno: It doesn't even matter whom you vote for. You may even vote for UKIP and then Nigel is bribed and decides to change his anti-EU rhetoric. Don't confuse pseudo-democracy with the concept of democracy that doesn't really exist.


Not taking away from your larger point (which we could argue about...or not), but didn't Scotland (or its leaders) ask for the creation of the United Kingdom because it was in financial trouble or something?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Skyline_ said:


> That's the idea!


Rolleyes.

:cheers:


----------



## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> Not taking away from your larger point (which we could argue about...or not), but didn't Scotland (or its leaders) ask for the creation of the United Kingdom because it was in financial trouble or something?


I took it to the Roadside Rest Area before the lot gets deleted again...


----------



## Penn's Woods

Talking of ID, security checks and the question "where is" (although not actually of borders):

http://www.aol.com/article/2014/07/...in-nations-geography/20932395/?ncid=webmail17

Sigh.


----------



## geogregor

Penn's Woods said:


> Talking of ID, security checks and the question "where is" (although not actually of borders):
> 
> http://www.aol.com/article/2014/07/...in-nations-geography/20932395/?ncid=webmail17
> 
> Sigh.


:lol::lol:
Fantastic, it made me laugh.

But seriously, I wonder how often similar situations happen in Europe.
Technically there are less countries in Schengen zone than states in the US but on the other hand we have all this "damn foreign" languages.


----------



## verreme

Should I point out that wanting borders to desappear does not make me an "uniformity fetishist"? I mean, it's our ability to understand each other and talk to each other (and yes I know we could do it better) despite the huge differences between us what makes Europe great.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^No need.

That's for people who, well, never mind.

:cheers:

PS: The quote's from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_(Star_Trek)#Assimilation


----------



## Singidunum

Warning to all, there is a 3 hour queue at the Batrovci crossing inbound http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Drustvo/481522/Na-Batrovcima-se-ceka-oko-tri-sata If you are travelling from Croatia to Serbia I suggest going over Šid.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Those are all Turkish people going back home from Germany,Austria and Switzerland


----------



## xanterra

Many kurds, syrians, iraqis and even afghans use the same route...but the overhelming majority is turkish of course....


----------



## Singidunum

Does anyone actually go from WE all the way to Afghanistan with a car?


----------



## xanterra

I have been also surprised..some students here in Germany told me that and I couldn't believe it... Last year I saw some guys with a german license plate trying to cross the bosp. bridge in Istanbul (they did not had a TollCard so I gave them mine, I knew they need help cause I saw there license plate)...Kurds and Arabs are very common on this route since a few years


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Singidunum said:


> Does anyone actually go from WE all the way to Afghanistan with a car?


That seems unlikely. Although it's not a major problem to travel into Iran, there is a major security problem in eastern Iran. They travel with armed convoys due to banditism. I don't think people actually drive all the way to Afghanistan from western Europe, but a lot sure do drive to Turkey from Germany or the Netherlands. 

Driving to Turkey takes some time, but is not particularly challenging, especially if you speak Turkish. Turkey has a decent road infrastructure, nearly all cities can be accessed via divided highways. Most maps only show the otoyol, but Turkey has over 10,000 kilometers of divided highways, some are near or at motorway standards.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Turkey has a big number of roads which are close up to motorway standards.


----------



## OClone

ChrisZwolle said:


> That seems unlikely. Although it's not a major problem to travel into Iran, there is a major security problem in eastern Iran. They travel with armed convoys due to banditism. I don't think people actually drive all the way to Afghanistan from western Europe, but a lot sure do drive to Turkey from Germany or the Netherlands.
> *
> Driving to Turkey takes some time, but is not particularly challenging, especially if you speak Turkish*. Turkey has a decent road infrastructure, nearly all cities can be accessed via divided highways. Most maps only show the otoyol, but Turkey has over 10,000 kilometers of divided highways, some are near or at motorway standards.


What?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's always easier to drive in a country where you speak the language, especially if the local population and/or police speaks no English, or when signs are only in local language (not to mention in a different script).


----------



## tonylondon

chris do you think albanian road sign are easy to understand when they are written in albanian and not in english...


----------



## OClone

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's always easier to drive in a country where you speak the language, especially if the local population and/or police speaks no English, or when signs are only in local language (not to mention in a different script).


Well, you said driving TO Turkey, which indicates everything that comes before it.


----------



## Verso

Singidunum said:


> Warning to all, there is a 3 hour queue at the Batrovci crossing inbound http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Drustvo/481522/Na-Batrovcima-se-ceka-oko-tri-sata If you are travelling from Croatia to Serbia I suggest going over Šid.


Thanks for this up-to-date information, we're all on our way to Serbia, especially Americans, Africans and Australians. :lol:


----------



## Corvinus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Driving to Turkey takes some time, but is not particularly challenging, especially if you speak Turkish. Turkey has a decent road infrastructure, nearly all cities can be accessed via divided highways.


I have read more than once from tourists that after entering Turkey from Bulgarian roads, they got a feeling of relief, sort of "finally, it's Europe again." OK, that's Western Turkey where development is different from Anatolia. 
When I experienced Turkish roads (only on bus so far), traffic was OK, most frightening were gasoline prices (over 2 euros / litre) ... but let's not get off-topic


----------



## Singidunum

Verso said:


> Thanks for this up-to-date information, we're all on our way to Serbia, especially Americans, Africans and Australians. :lol:


And where exactly are Australians headed with a car internationally?


----------



## Singidunum

ChrisZwolle said:


> but a lot sure do drive to Turkey from Germany or the Netherlands.


Yes that is not an issue. Every year this border crossing jams are caused exactly by Turkish gastarbeiters travelling for holidays to Turkey. There is an incredible number of them, you'll find some motels and restaurants along the highway in Serbia putting on Turkish flags, having menus in Turkish, offering Turkish newspapers etc. 

And this is not a new thing, ever since the migration began in 1960s it's been the case. Back in the day they used to travel in convoys with police in the front and back because due to fatigue there were many car crashes. Now of course no one cares about such things, but I doubt drivers are any less tired (most of them do non-stop routes).

However I've never heard of people going to Afghanistan or even Iran.


----------



## Road_UK

I see Iran plates occasionally in continental Europe. Even the odd Australian one actually...


----------



## Road_UK

Nothing is supposed to be deleted. EVER.


----------



## volodaaaa

Alex_ZR said:


> Actually, customs controls between Serbia and Montenegro started in 1999 when Montenegro introduced German Mark as a currency instead of Yugoslav dinar. From 1992 to 1999 there wasn't any border control between two republics. In 2001 Montenegro founded their central bank and banned dinar, in 2002 Euro replaced German Mark. Same was continued after 2003 when FR Yugoslavia was replaced by State union of Serbia and Montenegro, a country with two central banks, two currencies and two customs services. This loose union was finnaly dissolved in 2006.


What was the response of public? Nonetheless, Yugoslavia (1996) was still stronger state than loose union of Serbian and Montenegro.


----------



## Alex_ZR

volodaaaa said:


> What was the response of public? Nonetheless, Yugoslavia (1996) was still stronger state than loose union of Serbian and Montenegro.


After NATO bombing in 1999 Montenegro tended to have more pro-Western policy than official Belgrade had at that time (don't forget that Milošević still in power). That resulted a creation of loose union with only army, foreign minister and sport teams in common. Public opinion in Serbia reacted negative and many decided to go to vacation in Greece instead.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

This pictures were made on 30th July when i was going back home from my trip to Greece.
On firts one there is a Tabanovce border crossing in Macedonia.
On second one there is a Presevo border crossing in Serbia .


----------



## volodaaaa

Alex_ZR said:


> After NATO bombing in 1999 Montenegro tended to have more pro-Western policy than official Belgrade had at that time (don't forget that Milošević still in power). That resulted a creation of loose union with only army, foreign minister and sport teams in common. Public opinion in Serbia reacted negative and many decided to go to vacation in Greece instead.


Thank you for the first-hand explanation. I am very interested in that issue (as well as former Yugoslavia). :cheers:


----------



## Eulanthe

Alex_ZR said:


> Actually, customs controls between Serbia and Montenegro started in 1999 when Montenegro introduced German Mark as a currency instead of Yugoslav dinar. From 1992 to 1999 there wasn't any border control between two republics. In 2001 Montenegro founded their central bank and banned dinar, in 2002 Euro replaced German Mark. Same was continued after 2003 when FR Yugoslavia was replaced by State union of Serbia and Montenegro, a country with two central banks, two currencies and two customs services. This loose union was finnaly dissolved in 2006.


I've often wondered why the EU doesn't formalise the use of the Euro by Kosovo and Montenegro - the current situation of simply pretending that it doesn't happen is rather silly.

Incidentally, one annoying thing about the borders round here is the absolute lack of places to exchange money. 

Anyway, on Wednesday, Neum is calling - we'll see if anything interesting happens there. I can't find the map of Croatian border crossings that I had, so does anyone know - are there any other international border crossings near Neum that I can visit?


----------



## mappero

Poland - Germany schengen border bridge  Not in use since 1945. 

Pics from July 2014 done by myself. View from German side towards Poland


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Eulanthe said:


> I've often wondered why the EU doesn't formalise the use of the Euro by Kosovo and Montenegro - the current situation of simply pretending that it doesn't happen is rather silly.
> 
> Incidentally, one annoying thing about the borders round here is the absolute lack of places to exchange money.
> 
> Anyway, on Wednesday, Neum is calling - we'll see if anything interesting happens there. I can't find the map of Croatian border crossings that I had, so does anyone know - are there any other international border crossings near Neum that I can visit?


There is a international border crossing "Klek" and international border crossing "Zaton Doli "


----------



## cinxxx

^^You can check out the border crossing Čepikuće/Trebimlja. I crossed there in May...


----------



## Eulanthe

cinxxx said:


> ^^You can check out the border crossing Čepikuće/Trebimlja. I crossed there in May...


That'll do nicely, thank you!

I'm going to see if I can convince them to let me cross at Gabela Polje in Metkovic too, seeing as Croatia has idiotically decided to restrict it to locals only. Who on earth would restrict a border crossing in a town to only locals while the international border crossing is in the middle of nowhere?


----------



## Palance

Eulanthe said:


> Today was also a complete disaster - Ivanica was overloaded, and while the Bosnians were waving people through, the Croatian control was completely overwhelmed with BiH cars.
> 
> I know there's nothing they can do with the HR/MNE crossings, but they really need to sort out Ivanica. Waiting nearly an hour to enter the EU is ridiculous, especially as EU passport holders.


I have once read (and there is a newsitem on youtube somewhere) about the reopening of the road between Dubravka (Konavle, Croatia) and Jablan Do on the road Trebinje-Herceg Novi. That crossing hasn't still be opened yet.

Edit: found it: the border nowadays is to be seen on 1:04
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xnQX6s3LQM


----------



## Pascal20a

Is the border crossing at Vitaljina opened only for Croats and Montenegrins or for all?


----------



## Eulanthe

Palance said:


> I have once read (and there is a newsitem on youtube somewhere) about the reopening of the road between Dubravka (Konavle, Croatia) and Jablan Do on the road Trebinje-Herceg Novi. That crossing hasn't still be opened yet.
> 
> Edit: found it: the border nowadays is to be seen on 1:04
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xnQX6s3LQM


Could make some sense, but I don't think the Trebinje-Herceg Novi road has that much capacity on the Montenegrin side to deal with the overspill from the two HR/MNE crossings. 

The problem is that there's not much point in building extra capacity on the MNE/HR border for a few weekends a year. The only solution I can think of is to build a large car park on the HR side, then pre-clear travellers at that point during the weekends in cooperation with the MNE controls. 

Pascal, yes, the Vitaljina crossing is an international border crossing. It's rather odd that it is, but I think there's some diplomatic reasons for it being an international rather than local border crossing point. 

As for Neum, you have nothing much to worry about. The controls are a breeze - all accounts are that neither Croatia or Bosnia are interested in conducting full controls there. I'll report back on Wednesday with more information


----------



## Pascal20a

Then i should avoid this border section?


----------



## Palance

volodaaaa said:


> I wonder, how is a border crossing developed. Let's imagine Latvia - Russia border crossing. First, there was a independence declaration. Then what? Some tanks and barriers? Then first mobile booths?


Maljevac crossing between HR and BiH in 1995 (looking from BiH to HR)









Nowadays, a new big crossing exists next to this small road. Part of this road is on Street View.


----------



## Eulanthe

I wonder - was that UN post an actual border crossing, or was it merely a guard post? There are some remains of those UN barriers near Zeljava, too. I don't know for certain, but it seems that the UN was controlling the borders between the RSK and the various parastates at the time. 

Pascal, no need to avoid Neum. It's not really a proper border crossing - if you're an obvious tourist, you'll be waved through.


----------



## volodaaaa

Palance said:


> Maljevac crossing between HR and BiH in 1995 (looking from BiH to HR)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nowadays, a new big crossing exists next to this small road. Part of this road is on Street View.


More photos like that please :cheers::lol:


----------



## Palance

This should be Brčko, BIH in 1994, looking to Croatia.


----------



## Eulanthe

Today's roadtrip was to Metkovic, and a small report from there - 

The main Metkovic crossing (Doljani or something?) is a disaster - over an hour wait to exit Croatia and enter BiH. I parked up to have a look, and the main problem seems to be caused by over-zealous entry controls to both countries. It doesn't help that BiH appears to be entering every non-HR/BiH registered car into a computer for some reason.

I tried crossing at Gabela Polje and the other one nearby next to the Neretva, and they absolutely refused to even let me cross on foot. I even asked them in Gabela Polje if I could just go to the shop - no can do. 

Interestingly, along the border in Gabela, there's a street called Marka Marulica. The whole street only has one barrier next to a hairdresser - http://prafulla.net/?attachment_id=482553 - this one. The rest of the street has numerous streets leading into BiH, and none of them are controlled in any way. From hanging around there, it seems that the EU border is wide open at that point. I'm not sure if it's actually possible to go anywhere on the BiH side, though.

What's also interesting is that Croatia hasn't made any effort to mark the border in Gabela Polje, so you could easily accidentally stray into Bosnia by mistake. 

Neum is ridiculous as ever - passed through Klek and Zaton Doli twice, BiH police were nowhere to be seen, and Croatian police looked bored senseless. Documents weren't checked once.


----------



## Tachi

Palance said:


> This should be Brčko, BIH in 1994, looking to Croatia.


Today the border station is on a small piece of tarmac between the Sava bridge and the intersection with the main boulevard in Brčko.

I crossed this border from BIH to HR long time ago in 2001.


----------



## nestvaran

^^ Here's a pic of that bridge also taken in 1994 (blown up in early 1992 whilst refugees crossing to Croatia)












volodaaaa said:


> More photos like that please :cheers::lol:


Would you be so kind to tell what is funny in that picture?


----------



## f.ostman

Eulanthe said:


> Interestingly, along the border in Gabela, there's a street called Marka Marulica. The whole street only has one barrier next to a hairdresser - http://prafulla.net/?attachment_id=482553 - this one. The rest of the street has numerous streets leading into BiH, and none of them are controlled in any way. From hanging around there, it seems that the EU border is wide open at that point. I'm not sure if it's actually possible to go anywhere on the BiH side, though.


Interesting indeed! I found a couple of articles on the subject, here is one:
http://www.dw.de/ulica-na-granici-između-bih-i-hrvatske/a-17233792

Google translate does quite a decent job but if someone that knows the language reads the article and posts a summary here, it would be appreciated.


----------



## WB2010

*Former border crossing between Russia and Germany (1815-1914) in central-western Poland*

It is exactly 100 years since the outbreak of the I World War, so I wish to show you a very particular border crossing - it is located at Borzykowo (on the way number 442 between Pyzdry and Września, some 70 kilometres east of Poznań and 240 kilometres west of Warsaw). Since the Congress of Vienna (1815) until the beginning of the I WW (1914) it served as a westernmost border crossing (and point) between Russia and Prussia (and later united Germany). For us Poles it is a sad reminder of times when our country was erased from the map of Europe. Territories on both sides of this former border were Polish ever since the beginning of our statehood in the 10 century until the partitions of Poland (1793) and since my country regained independence in 1918.










On the right - former German part of Poland and a German border guard, on the left - former Russian part of Poland and a Russian border guard.​


----------



## Pascal20a

How about the waiting at the border crossing Kula Norinska on the A1 to Bosnia and the M6 in Bosnia at the border crossing near Gabela to Croatia?


----------



## Pascal20a

Ill drive there next week


----------



## Eulanthe

Speaking of Brcko, I saw the devastation on the Croatian side last week - I was driving along and couldn't understand why there were piles of broken wood and rubbish next to almost every house, along with many houses looking like victims of war. Then it dawned on me that the flood had really destroyed that area  Brcko in comparison is fine.

Pascal, avoid the M6 crossing into Bosnia and use the A10 Novo Selo crossing instead. 

f.ostman - As I understand the situation, locals living there have passes that permit them to cross the border at any point along the street. I think the street is quite unique in the European Union in that the entire street is treated as one big border crossing - if you have a pass, you're entitled to cross there at any point. Otherwise, locals must go through the border crossing, and anyone not from the local area must go through Doljani / Novo Selo.

From what I understand, there is pretty much freedom of movement there for locals. My own observation showed that people were crossing the border freely, and it seemed that some cars with German plates were crossing there and avoiding the border control. What was very surprising to me is that we were free to walk around the entire area - the border seemingly isn't marked, so it's very easy to stray across the border by mistake. 

I don't know what would happen if they caught you crossing there without a pass, but without border markings, it's hard to see how they could justify fining me. What's even more odd is that there's no signs warning you about the street being a border crossing - if I was following a GPS unit for instance, there might be no warning of actually crossing an international border.


----------



## SRC_100

Eulanthe said:


> Speaking of Brcko, I saw the devastation on the Croatian side last week - I was driving along and couldn't understand why there were piles of broken wood and rubbish next to almost every house, along with many houses looking like victims of war. Then it dawned on me that the flood had really destroyed that area  Brcko in comparison is fine.


This year flood unfortunately...


----------



## Eulanthe

Not sure if this will work, but I found this - http://www.klix.ba/forum/grbavica-vraca-i-kovacici-pod-okupacijom--p7451769.html#p7451769

Third picture in that post shows the "Brotherhood and Unity Bridge" border crossing into the Republika Srpska - it's in Sarajevo, in the Grbavica district. 

http://www.klix.ba/forum/grbavica-vraca-i-kovacici-pod-okupacijom--p7451790.html#p7451790 - also here, you can see the border crossing post.

It's very interesting, because I didn't know that they maintained such formal border crossings with the Republic of Bosnia and Hercegovina - you can even see on the sign (in French) that it's a border crossing. Does anyone know how long they maintained border controls for?


----------



## Alien x

Eulanthe said:


> Not sure if this will work, but I found this - http://www.klix.ba/forum/grbavica-vraca-i-kovacici-pod-okupacijom--p7451769.html#p7451769
> 
> Third picture in that post shows the "Brotherhood and Unity Bridge" border crossing into the Republika Srpska - it's in Sarajevo, in the Grbavica district.
> 
> http://www.klix.ba/forum/grbavica-vraca-i-kovacici-pod-okupacijom--p7451790.html#p7451790 - also here, you can see the border crossing post.
> 
> It's very interesting, because I didn't know that they maintained such formal border crossings with the Republic of Bosnia and Hercegovina - you can even see on the sign (in French) that it's a border crossing. Does anyone know how long they maintained border controls for?


:nuts: The sign was more for propaganda purposes.
It was a war time checkpoint never a boarder crossing it was used for exchanging prisoners and civilians. The later pictures are from the reunification of Sarajevo.


----------



## Eulanthe

Alien x said:


> :nuts: The sign was more for propaganda purposes.


I've found a bit more about it, and it seems that this actually functioned as a border crossing for a while. 



> It was a war time checkpoint never a boarder crossing it was used for exchanging prisoners and civilians. The later pictures are from the reunification of Sarajevo.


Not quite - it was used to allow some people from both Sarajevo and the Republika Srpska to visit the other side during the war. It seems that it may actually have functioned as a border checkpoint (within RS constitutional theory) and not just as a war checkpoint. It certainly did function as one until Grbavica came under Federation control. 

Regardless of what we think about the legitimacy of Republika Srpska, if they say it was a border crossing, then it must be one for the purposes of this thread


----------



## Alien x

Eulanthe said:


> I've found a bit more about it, and it seems that this actually functioned as a border crossing for a while.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite - it was used to allow some people from both Sarajevo and the Republika Srpska to visit the other side during the war. It seems that it may actually have functioned as a border checkpoint (within RS constitutional theory) and not just as a war checkpoint. It certainly did function as one until Grbavica came under Federation control.
> 
> Regardless of what we think about the legitimacy of Republika Srpska, *if they say it was a border crossing, then it must be one for the purposes of this thread*


Regardless of point of view on legitimacy it was not an 'international border crossing' so for purpose of this thread its pointless.
Who exactly are "they"?
For someone that was not there please avoid giving these kind of comments. For your information Sarajevo was completely encircle and no one went on 'visits' to the other side seeing how there was a war on during the time of this checkpoint and people where being shelled and shot at. 
If you have a agenda then I see where you coming from, but otherwise you throwing together irrelevant points that have no point on this thread.


----------



## Pascal20a

Why avoid the M6? Is the E73 the road to Metkovic? I wanna take this route from Mostar to Metkovic and then to Dubrovnik.


----------



## Eulanthe

Alien x said:


> Regardless of point of view on legitimacy it was not an 'international border crossing' so for purpose of this thread its pointless.
> Who exactly are "they"?


Republika Srpska seemed to consider it an international border, judging by the signs and their various comments. It's not for us to judge as to whether it was legitimate, only that the government of RS considered it to be a border. 

The picture makes it clear that the RS authorities considered it an international border crossing, just like they considered their borders with the RSK to be international borders. 



> For someone that was not there please avoid giving these kind of comments.


But why deny the RS their own opinion? It would be like denying that South Ossetia or Northern Cyprus have border crossings. 



> For your information Sarajevo was completely encircle and no one went on 'visits' to the other side seeing how there was a war on during the time of this checkpoint and people where being shelled and shot at.


Sorry, that's not quite true. There were various occasions throughout the war when permission was granted for people (usually elderly) to temporarily visit relatives in both directions. 



> If you have a agenda then I see where you coming from, but otherwise you throwing together irrelevant points that have no point on this thread.


I only wish for the picture to be recognised for what it was - a border crossing into the Republika Srpska as recognised by the authorities in control of the RS. No agenda here - merely an acknowledgement that the RS considered it to be an international border.

Pascal, the queues at the M6 border crossing are a nightmare now. I'd go via Novo Selo on the Croatian A10 (Bosnian...A1? I'm not sure what number it has) instead.


----------



## Pascal20a

Sorry i meant the M17


----------



## Eulanthe

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/03/24/world/siege-of-sarajevo-lifts-briefly-as-83-leave-the-city.html

This link contains some more information about the Grbavica border crossing within Sarajevo.



> Just before the bridge opened this morning, the Bosnian Serbs raised a Serbian flag and signs in three languages that read: "Srpska Republic, Border Crossing, New Sarajevo." The Bosnian Serbs call the part of Bosnia they control the Srpska Republic.
> 
> Nesib Muratovic, a Bosnian policeman at the Brotherhood and Unity bridge, said he was unhappy about the opening because it gave the Bosnian Serbs the opportunity to demonstrate their claim to sovereignty over the territory they have seized.
> 
> "They're going to put up a customs post," Officer Muratovic said. "It's the legalization of the Srpska Republic."
> 
> But United Nations officials insisted that the crossing is no border. "It's a passage where people can cross safely," General Soubirou said. "It's just a beginning."


A neutral view on the matter says that while the Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina didn't recognise it as a border crossing, the Republika Srpska did. In the RS constitutional theory, it was therefore an international border crossing. It had more or less the same recognition as the border crossings between Georgia and South Ossetia, or perhaps those between Moldova and Transdniester. 

I wonder if the RS set up any other formal border crossings with the Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina? There's a description in Misha Glenny's book about the RSK-RS border, but no pictures sadly.


----------



## Alien x

@Eulanthe
Thank you for the most irrelevant and useless information that you obviously posted for your own personal agenda.

No one else recognized it as an international border as it was wartime checkpoint. It has nothing to do with the examples that you mentioned as there is something called 'Dayton Peace Accords' maybe you should freshen up on that what is an international border in Bosnia and Herzegovina and what is not. Note the counties that signed the accords.
So kindly stop spamming this thread with you personal agenda.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ LOL WTF

Was checkpoint there, it seems yes

But, to call international border crossing, well, to really be international needs to be recogized country by others IMO (and this seems normal processus)


----------



## Verso

Three pages about ex-Yugoslavia, center of the world!


----------



## aubergine72

Verso said:


> Three pages about ex-Yugoslavia, center of the world!


More like unemployment index

:troll:


----------



## Eulanthe

Alien x said:


> @Eulanthe Thank you for the most irrelevant and useless information that you obviously posted for your own personal agenda.


What agenda? 

The facts are absolutely crystal clear. The Republika Srpska government regarded the Novo Sarajevo checkpoint at the Brotherhood and Unity Bridge as being an international border checkpoint. The signs, as well as the infrastructure support that fact. 



> no-one else recognized it as an international border as it was wartime checkpoint. It has nothing to do with the examples that you mentioned as there is something called 'Dayton Peace Accords' maybe you should freshen up on that what is an international border in Bosnia and Herzegovina and what is not. Note the counties that signed the accords.


I've read Dayton and other treaties until I was sick, and nothing can change the facts. It's a fact that the Republika Srpska regarded themselves as a sovereign and independent state, and in 1994, they started to move towards a 'normalisation' of the situation. The Republic of Bosnia and Hercegovina refused to accept it - which is why you can read above about the Bosnian governmental protests over the setting up of the checkpoint. 

Who recognised and who didn't recognise the RS checkpoint - it's irrelevant. Regardless of what the de jure position was of the international community, it's pretty clear that in 1994, the RS was seriously trying to find a way to legitimise themselves. Setting up the border crossing was part of that, and really - they were de facto two different countries, not least under the usual definition of sovereignty (a functional government and territory). They were missing international recognition, but it didn't stop the Novo Sarajevo checkpoint being operated as an international checkpoint. 

And as I've said repeatedly, it *did* function as a border crossing. Controls on people and baggage were conducted there, after all. 



> So kindly stop spamming this thread with you personal agenda.


No personal agenda here, I'm not tainted by bitter partisan politics. For me, the facts on the ground are reality. 



Kanadzie said:


> But, to call international border crossing, well, to really be international needs to be recogized country by others IMO (and this seems normal processus)


Well, the RS government regarded it as one. If you delve further into it, the RS declared independence in April 92, and was de facto independent until the implementation of the Dayton Agreement.


----------



## Road_UK

bogdymol said:


> A friend of mine posted this on Facebook few days ago. Picture taken at Romania-Serbia border crossing at Moravita/Vrsac.


International transport like in the good ol' days with horse and carriage?


----------



## Alex_ZR

italystf said:


> I assume also for EEA-CH passport holders, right?


You are right. EU-EEA-CH always go together at EU member crossings, I forget to write that.


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> International transport like in the good ol' days with horse and carriage?


Once I posted a video about a horse cart on a motorway in Romania and it was deleted. hno:


----------



## Road_UK

Why?


----------



## italystf

The discussion moved towards ethnic minorities in Romania, you know what I mean...


----------



## Road_UK

Yep. Contraband.


----------



## SRC_100

Alex_ZR said:


> Hungarian interstate border crossing Tiszasziget,
> 
> Very good alternative for Horgoš/Roszke.


I think much better is Assothalom/Backi Vinogradi if someone goes toward Novi Sad or Beograd and does not want to stand 5h in queue with the Turks.


----------



## Eulanthe

Alex_ZR said:


> You are right. EU-EEA-CH always go together at EU member crossings, I forget to write that.


And a little known fact is that Andorra, San Marino, Monaco and (I think...) the Vatican City also go through there.

Having said that, I saw some unbelievable stupidity at Neum the other day. I was coming into Croatia towards Dubrovnik, and there was about 15-20 cars in front of me. The "All Passports" lane was empty, except for one Russian car, while all the other cars (mostly HR) were queued up in the EU/EEA/CH line.

Of course, I took the All Passports line and was through within 30 seconds. The girl in the booth was waving people over, but they all completely ignored her. Fools


----------



## italystf

Eulanthe said:


> And a little known fact is that Andorra, San Marino, Monaco and (I think...) the Vatican City also go through there.


And British Crown Dependencies and Faer Oer islands?


----------



## Road_UK

Well... Jersey does. I was there last month.


----------



## Eulanthe

italystf said:


> And British Crown Dependencies and Faer Oer islands?


As far as I know, anyone with citizenship of the EU/EEA/CH/microstates is entitled to use the lines. The Crown Dependencies (and others) still have British passports, so they're fine there. 

I think the same applies with (for instance) Greenlandic passports - they're still Danish nationals. But then - a quick look on Wikipedia says that although they're Danish nationals, they (along with the Faroese) aren't to be considered Danish nationals for the purposes of the European Union. I have no idea - I'll ask Europa Direct and see what they say.

The confusing part comes when you realise that many British passport holders have no right to actually reside in the UK/elsewhere in the EU.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

What EEA means ?


----------



## Road_UK

European Economic Area. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area


----------



## volodaaaa

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> What EEA means ?


Here is the best explanation 

:troll:


----------



## Kemo

Technically this is not a border crossing, but since I did _cross_ the border here I hope you won't mind me posting some pictures.

1. View from the peak of Wielka Rawka (1307 m above sea level). The peak is located in Poland, ~230m from the PL-UA border. Looking south-east:









2. Looking south-west and I can see the mountain where the tripoint is located:









3. So let's follow the trail to that mountain. It hugs the PL-UA border, going on the Polish side but it actually enters Ukraine for few meters in one place.









4. The Polish landmark number 5, counting from the tripoint.









5. Ukrainian one









6. And this is the tripoint landmark. Krzemieniec/Kremenec/Кременець, 1221 m above sea level.







7. I wonder how did they put it here, by helicopter?







8. Look, I entered Ukraine without a passport! 







(If some photos don't load, come back later)


----------



## Kemo

9. No, the landmark on the right is not Russian (thank God)









10. It's Slovak









11. And its Ukrainian counterpart. The smaller grey pole between them marks the actual border.









12. For some reason PL-UA and SK-UA borders are marked with these big double poles, and the PL-SK border is marked only with such small, single ones (S for Slovensko):









13. And P for Polska


----------



## Eulanthe

I think, but maybe I'm wrong - but those PL/SK markers are the old PL/CS markers too. It seems that Czechoslovakia agreed with Poland and Germany to just use those small stone ones instead of anything bigger.

Speaking of the PL/UA border there, I've always thought that it was absolutely absurd that there are no pedestrian border crossings in Bieszczady with UA. I know the Wolosate crossing is opened very occasionally, but at the very least, couldn't they open it during summer? Of course, smuggling is a problem - but just agree that anyone caught smuggling will be banned from Schengen until the end of summer and everyone will be happy.

I don't think the tripoint was an international border crossing with PL/SK, was it?


----------



## MattiG

Road_UK said:


> European Economic Area. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area


To be brief: EU plus "almost EU". 

The "almost EU" is Norway, Iceland and Liechstenstein. The follow most of the EU legislation, but are not members to EU for certain political reasons.

Switzerland is "almost ETA". Is not a member to ETA but it has signed bilateral ETA-like agreements with most EU and ETA countries.

The diagram in the Wikipedia article tells a lot...


----------



## Road_UK

I tried to click on that diagram, but it took me to Belgium...


----------



## Skyline_

Greece - F.Y.R.O.Macedonia border: 2524 meters above sea level.


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> Or just a mistake with languages. ETA is Finnish for EEA (Euroopan Talousalue, European Economic Area).


 Yes. I am sorry about the confusion.


----------



## x-type

Eulanthe said:


> Could I ask for a huge favour from anyone living in Croatia or Slovenia?
> 
> I want to go back to Restoran Kalin to finally eat dinner inside there, but I remember that it was closed last summer around this time. Would someone be kind enough to call them to check if they're open or closed?
> 
> http://www.restorankalin.com/location/ - the numbers are here.
> 
> I promise to take pictures inside if it's open





Road_UK said:


> You'd be best asking these questions at a Croatian Skybar or something. Not here.


actually i called them, but nobody answered. it seems that they are closed only at mondays. also, i read that old owner died in hunting, and after that some other people took over the restaurant, after that quality dropped down.


----------



## Eulanthe

x-type said:


> actually i called them, but nobody answered. it seems that they are closed only at mondays. also, i read that old owner died in hunting, and after that some other people took over the restaurant, after that quality dropped down.


Thank you so much, probably means they're closed for summer holidays again  

When did the old owner die? I think I met the current owner last year (we only had time for coffee), but we didn't really have time to stay and talk.


----------



## Verso

CNGL said:


> Same here hno:.
> 
> But I believe MattiG wanted to say E*F*TA.


Switzerland isn't "almost EFTA", it's properly its member.


----------



## Eulanthe

x-type said:


> actually i called them, but nobody answered. it seems that they are closed only at mondays. also, i read that old owner died in hunting, and after that some other people took over the restaurant, after that quality dropped down.


Okay, I went there anyway to have a look because of the diabolical situation on the A1 today, and explored the local area. The restaurant is shut UNTIL TOMORROW. I leave tomorrow morning  

Anyway, some comments about the Bregana area - 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/B...2!3m1!1s0x4765c90c41fc76bf:0x2600ad5153373812 - this guard hut is now unmanned. Previously, there was someone there all the time, but now, nothing. A local told me that they're only there now on an irregular basis and that they aren't being bothered for documents anymore. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.842...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sRp7kSCRlHMspxs0yhr76sw!2e0 - likewise, this guard hut is also empty and not being used. You can actually drive across the border near there without any fuss whatsoever - the road is wide open and only a very small sign warns you about the Slovenian border. I actually drove across by mistake - then drove back and took pictures. No sign of any interest whatsoever from Croatian/Slovenian border guards.

The controls at the actual border crossing in Bregana are incredibly light. Still no sign of the 'one stop control', but it might as well be a Schengen border already.

--

Elsewhere, Neum - entirely as I reported before. No interest whatsoever from the BiH police and customs (who were nowhere to be seen, as usual), and the Croatian police were incredibly relaxed. 

I won't manage to upload it until I get home, but I've found something very interesting in Gabela Polje, near Metkovic. There's a petrol station only accessible from Croatia, but located (just) on Bosnian territory. Prices are in KM, but what makes it incredibly curious is the lack of access from Bosnian territory. The whole area is incredibly poorly controlled - no sign of any video control, patrols or anything else. There's an abandoned police box too, but in general, the entire area seems to be completely open. I'm not sure how Croatia can join Schengen with such wide open borders.

Nova Sela is a great border crossing, barely any waiting time at all. The Bosnian side (Bileca?) is completely unfinished - it looks like they don't even have the facilities to deal with imports and exports yet. Interesting, Croatia doesn't have a radiation detector there.


----------



## Road_UK

Eulanthe said:


> Road_UK, can you give me some information about clearing Customs for going to Norway?
> 
> Why do you clear the goods out of the EU in Dover and not on the border with Norway? Also, what stops you from not actually exporting them?
> 
> Are you obliged to report to the Customs authority of the last EU state you're in before exporting them?


I actually do clear them on the border with Norway as well - as on any border outside the EU I am travelling to - in my job only Norway and Switzerland so far. 

In Dover I go to the freight handler office first. My boss will already have faxed the paperwork with the goods, VAT estimates and quantities. I get the official T1 form from that office and I walk over to UK HM Customs and they are going to clear it for leaving the EU. I get a stamp on the T1 form. On the Norwegian border with Sweden I have to go a freight handling office again. They provide me with a new form which I then take to Norwegian customs, and the goods are now cleared to enter Norway. Same procedure on the French-Swiss border. I have nothing to do with customs of the last EU country I was in as it already has been cleared by the British. Earlier, before entering Switzerland I had to get it stamped by the French as well. >That was a pain in the ass and lots of walking. First park the van at the crossing in St Louis-Basel, then freight handling office, then French customs, then walk back to freight handling office, then walk over to Swiss customs, then back to van and drive to passport control. But since about 5 years ago I just needed a Swiss stamp upon entering.


----------



## SRC_100

Some shots of border crossing Udvar/Dubosevica (H/HR):

First shot shows hungarian check point for the opposite direction (for entering Hungary)









Therefore, we must turn to the right and enter the appropriate check point. Both are parallel, separated by a building









Here is a check point for leaving Hungary









Croatian check point... much smaller than hungarian









Croatian speed limits


----------



## SRC_100

And now shots form border crossing between Croatia and BiH, Slavonski Brod/(Bosanski) Brod:

First shot shows croatian check point









This one is after river bridge (which is between croatian and bosnan check points)









BiH check point (in fact there is Republic of Srpska)









As you see, very simple and neglected infrastructure of border control


----------



## BL2

^^I see it is small, but I don't see it is more or less neglected then Hungarian.


----------



## SRC_100

I wrote what are my feelings. Unfortunately I couldn`t take picture on site. There it looks worse than outside. When I was leaving BiH there , nobody stopped me to check my ID or so. I just went over not stopping 
What was funny on croatian side, all cars (croatian) stood in queue on line for EU citizenship etc. and no one car on line for "all passports"! I went there, so I didn`t have to stay in queue at least 15 minutes


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ LOL, they are just proud of EU


----------



## Verso

I doubt. They see "EU" and go there without much thinking.


----------



## Eulanthe

SRC_100 said:


> I wrote what are my feelings. Unfortunately I couldn`t take picture on site. There it looks worse than outside. When I was leaving BiH there , nobody stopped me to check my ID or so. I just went over not stopping


It is true. Many of the BiH border crossings just aren't set up well - for instance, Ivanica where they're working out of a portacabin despite it being an international crossing. Brcko, Brod and Gradiska are also completely rubbish - instead of coming to an agreement with Croatia over a joint facility, they choose to maintain a completely inadequate facility themselves. 

In fairness, not all of the Croatian ones are great, but when you compare the size of the facilities at Brcko and Brod with the BiH counterparts, it's just painful. There's really no excuse for it - there's a large car park next to the Brcko crossing that could be levelled and used as a checkpoint. 

Whatever happened to the plan to build a proper checkpoint at Ivanica?

What makes it even worse is their behaviour in Neum. I understand waving cars through, but I actually saw the BiH border police sitting around in their office drinking coffee while leaving the border completely open. What possible reason can there be for not even controlling entry with a visual check?



> Whata was funny on croatian side, all cars (croatian) stood in queue on line for EU citizenship etc. and no one car on line for "all passports"! I went there, so I don`t have to stay in queue at least 15 minutes


I noticed this too! It wasn't just Croatian, but plenty of tourists doing the same - Schengen seems to have made people stupid. I must have saved about 15 minutes at Klek by doing just that - people were queuing up quite far back, but by overtaking them in the lorries lane and then taking the absolutely empty "all passports" line, I jumped the entire queue. The girl working there even remarked that people couldn't read.


----------



## BL2

so you complain because there are no strict controls :nuts:


----------



## Eulanthe

BL2 said:


> so you complain because there are no strict controls :nuts:


Of course. It's absolutely irresponsible of BiH not to even do a 'minimum check' on entry - they seem to be relying on Croatia to do it, which isn't exactly the kind of cooperation expected from a country with EU aspirations.

I've said it elsewhere, but Bosnia really has a lousy attitude at times towards border control in general. Some facilities are great - Licko Petrovo Selo (sorry, don't know the Bosnian name) and Nova Sela for instance. But a single lane on entry at Brcko, Brod, Gradiska and Ivanica is absolutely ridiculous when you consider the amount of traffic that goes through there.


----------



## BL2

Eulanthe said:


> Of course. It's absolutely irresponsible of BiH not to even do a 'minimum check' on entry - they seem to be relying on Croatia to do it, which isn't exactly the kind of cooperation expected from a country with EU aspirations.
> 
> I've said it elsewhere, but Bosnia really has a lousy attitude at times towards border control in general. Some facilities are great - Licko Petrovo Selo (sorry, don't know the Bosnian name) and Nova Sela for instance. But a single lane on entry at Brcko, Brod, Gradiska and Ivanica is absolutely ridiculous when you consider the amount of traffic that goes through there.


Comme on :slap: Are you serious?! We dont need and dont want controls, we dont want ghettos. We hate it. If you want and like it just go to North Korea or wherever. That is Bosnian attitude.


----------



## Pascal20a

There was a very long traffic jam from Zabok to the slovenian - croatian border yesterday at 21:30 h


----------



## Corvinus

Zernez (CH) -> Livigno (I)
August 2014, shot from bus

1. Border is some 200 mts ahead









2. Swiss border post to the right, main road 28 to the left. This border post is still about 4 kms into Swiss territory.









3. The crossing's name is La Drossa









4. Single-lane tunnel under Munt La Schera, some 3 kms long, entirely in/under 
Swiss territory. The traffic light actually shows red, not yellow ...









5. Looks like at least 100 yrs old ...









6. After the tunnel, still Switzerland! You first ride atop of a dam along the shore of Lago di Livigno. Ahead, the toll booth for the tunnel.









7. Only after the dam do we actually enter Italy!









8. Italian customs booth


----------



## Singidunum

Huge queues on exit from Serbia to Croatia and Hungary at Batrovci and Horgos - 4-5 hours. And the worst part is that the alternative crossings have been discovered by Turkish gastarbeiters so there is a 3 hour wait at Backi Vinogradi for an example. In comments section people report waiting 8-9 hours yesterday.

http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Drustvo/488350/Haos-na-granicama-ceka-se-i-po-pet-sati


----------



## nestvaran

What do Serbian gastarbeiters do? Fly over?


----------



## volodaaaa

Singidunum said:


> Huge queues on exit from Serbia to Croatia and Hungary at Batrovci and Horgos - 4-5 hours. And the worst part is that the alternative crossings have been discovered by Turkish gastarbeiters so there is a 3 hour wait at Backi Vinogradi for an example. In comments section people report waiting 8-9 hours yesterday.
> 
> http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Drustvo/488350/Haos-na-granicama-ceka-se-i-po-pet-sati


I was in Vienna today. The queues on the entrance of the city were gross. If most of the people drove from Turkey, I can imagine how did Horgos look like.


----------



## Singidunum

Yes many do, Wizz Air flies to cities where they live in Germany and Scandinavia. Also those that don't often travel on buses. Also they tend to travel more spread out throughout the year. Also there simply aren't millions of Serian gastarbeiters out there.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

volodaaaa said:


> I was in Vienna today. The queues on the entrance of the city were gross. If most of the people drove from Turkey, I can imagine how did Horgos look like.


4 hours of waiting .


----------



## Pascal20a

Also near the slovenian border near krapina yesterday


----------



## Eulanthe

Singidunum said:


> Huge queues on exit from Serbia to Croatia and Hungary at Batrovci and Horgos - 4-5 hours. And the worst part is that the alternative crossings have been discovered by Turkish gastarbeiters so there is a 3 hour wait at Backi Vinogradi for an example. In comments section people report waiting 8-9 hours yesterday.


It's a complete disaster in/around the Balkans this past week, it seems.

I was listening to Croatian Radio throughout my time there, and queues of over 2 hours were somewhat routine on the HR-non EU borders. Apparently Karasovici has been seeing queues of up to 6 hours - which is frankly ridiculous. 

Macelj was closed at one point to new cars, with all traffic diverted off at Krapina towards different border crossings. There was a 9km queue towards Slovenia at one border crossing on a Wednesday, and even the Neum border crossings saw heavy traffic when entering Croatia. 

As it stands, probably the only sane way to leave Serbia at these times is to go to Novi Sad, then cross the border into Croatia at Ilok. From Ilok, you can go on the D2 to Osijek, then D7 to Hungary and onto the Hungarian M6.

But why do the Turkish all go home/return to Germany at the same time?


----------



## Singidunum

Eulanthe said:


> But why do the Turkish all go home/return to Germany at the same time?


They move in mysterious ways.

Btw before someone complained how Bosnia-Croatia border crossings are just for Croatian or Bosnian citizens. I think this is the case just because no one contested it yet but it would only take one complaint to the European Commission to make them at least open for other EU citizens. I am saying this because all those smaller crossings with Hungary that used to be just for Serbian and Hungarian citizens had to be transformed and are now for Serbian, Hungarian and EU citizens. Obviously Serbia didn't have to accept it probably but then those crossings would have had to be closed as they wouldn't be actually open for EU citizens.


----------



## nestvaran

Those crossings someone complained about were not open for BiH and Croatian citizens but local residents ONLY


----------



## Eulanthe

nestvaran said:


> Those crossings someone complained about were not open for BiH and Croatian citizens but local residents ONLY


In theory, but I have good reason to believe that both Croatia and BiH are allowing anyone through with a passport from one of those countries. I've seen cars with D, A and other plates passing through with no consequence - but they all had passports (not local border passes). 

I'm in the process of making a formal complaint about these border crossings - it is absolutely unfair that I have to stand in a 2 hour queue while other EU citizens can cross the border freely. 

Quite honestly, I can't see any good reason for these to be restricted to locals only. The crossing in Gabela Polje for instance (near Metkovic) - they have all the facilities needed, and there's no excuse to not at least allow pedestrian traffic to cross freely.


----------



## BL2

Eulanthe said:


> In theory, but I have good reason to believe that both Croatia and BiH are allowing anyone through with a passport from one of those countries.* I've seen cars with D, A and other plates passing through with no consequence* - but they all had passports (not local border passes).
> 
> I'm in the process of making a formal complaint about these border crossings - it is absolutely unfair that I have to stand in a 2 hour queue while other EU citizens can cross the border freely.
> 
> Quite honestly, I can't see any good reason for these to be restricted to locals only. The crossing in Gabela Polje for instance (near Metkovic) - they have all the facilities needed, and there's no excuse to not at least allow pedestrian traffic to cross freely.


probably locals, who work in D, A.


----------



## ainvan

Vermont/Quebec border crossing


----------



## Skyline_

Can you park the car on the borderline just for the hell of it? LOL.


----------



## Proof Sheet

ainvan said:


> Vermont/Quebec border crossing


I'm heading that way next Saturday. I think the 2nd photo is old as I believe there is now a fence there preventing access between the 2 countries.

I imagine most people cross at the interstate/autoroute crossing...is it just locals at the other 2. 

The road (Canusa Avenue) is actually all in Canada with the border about 5 m or so in the front yard of the homes on the south side (US).

Great photos.


----------



## Singidunum

BL2 said:


> probably locals, who work in D, A.


Then they are not local residents.


----------



## BL2

Singidunum said:


> Then they are not local residents.


Off course they are, they have IDs from there.


----------



## Singidunum

BL2 said:


> Off course they are, they have IDs from there.


That is illegal, you can't reside in two places.


----------



## BL2

Singidunum said:


> That is illegal, you can't reside in two places.


It is not illegal, you can reside in two places. You have in Germany (Zweitwohnsitz) and in Austria (Nebenwohnsitz).


----------



## italystf

Proof Sheet said:


> I'm heading that way next Saturday. I think the 2nd photo is old as I believe there is now a fence there preventing access between the 2 countries.
> 
> I imagine most people cross at the interstate/autoroute crossing...is it just locals at the other 2.
> 
> The road (Canusa Avenue) is actually all in Canada with the border about 5 m or so in the front yard of the homes on the south side (US).
> 
> Great photos.


Is it Derby Line, where there's that famous library?


----------



## ainvan

italystf said:


> Is it Derby Line, where there's that famous library?


----------



## Skyline_

ainvan said:


>


One divided nation....:cheers:


----------



## Singidunum

BL2 said:


> It is not illegal, you can reside in two places.


No it is illegal, you can't permanently reside in two places and temporary residence is usually limited to 1 year. The whole idea of residence would be pointless if that was possible not to mention it doesn't make sense as you can't physically be at two places at the same time.


----------



## Road_UK

No it's not. Here in Mayrhofen there are loads of British, German and Dutch people who have a 2nd home here all year round. They are registered here as "nebenwohnsitz". And in Britain you don't have to register at all.


----------



## BL2

Singidunum said:


> No it is illegal, you can't permanently reside in two places and temporary residence is usually limited to 1 year. The whole idea of residence would be pointless if that was possible not to mention it doesn't make sense as you can't physically be at two places at the same time.


Do I have to post you articel from the law in order for you to accept the fact. Here is from Austrian governement site. You can Google it further if you don't belive it.


----------



## Singidunum

Road_UK said:


> No it's not. Here in Mayrhofen there are loads of British, German and Dutch people who have a 2nd home here all year round. They are registered here as "nebenwohnsitz". And in Britain you don't have to register at all.


That is Britain, a very specific case. Not cancelling the residence in Serbia upon moving out to another country brings a fine of 100-500 EUR.http://www.paragraf.rs/propisi/zakon_o_prebivalistu_i_boravistu_gradjana.html


----------



## BL2

^^we are not talking about Serbia, we are talking about Austria, Germany and BiH


----------



## Singidunum

Bosnia adopted is in the process of adopting the same law as Serbia - http://www.prvimart.ba/vijesti/novi-zakon-o-prebivalistu-mnogi-ce-biti-samo-turisti-u-svojoj-zemlji And the only reason why it had a different law were the refugees. From now on foreign residents will be treated as - tourists, and their double residency will be cancelled.


----------



## BL2

^^That law has not been adopted.


----------



## x-type

Singidunum said:


> Btw before someone complained how Bosnia-Croatia border crossings are just for Croatian or Bosnian citizens. I think this is the case just because no one contested it yet but it would only take one complaint to the European Commission to make them at least open for other EU citizens. I am saying this because all those smaller crossings with Hungary that used to be just for Serbian and Hungarian citizens had to be transformed and are now for Serbian, Hungarian and EU citizens. Obviously Serbia didn't have to accept it probably but then those crossings would have had to be closed as they wouldn't be actually open for EU citizens.


there was the same situation between Slovenia and Croatia - plenty of local crossings.


----------



## Singidunum

Is Croatia still aiming for Schengen membership in 2015?


----------



## x-type

Singidunum said:


> Is Croatia still aiming for Schengen membership in 2015?


rather the beginning of 2016. plan is to apply for membership exactly 2 years after joining the EU (01.07.2015.) and hoping that in 6 moinths membership would be approved.


----------



## BL2

what are the chances to achieve that goal?


----------



## x-type

BL2 said:


> what are the chances to achieve that goal?


i don't know. people here are not bothering with that too much. i personally think that it would be surprise to achieve it in such short period nowadays.


----------



## Eulanthe

x-type said:


> i don't know. people here are not bothering with that too much. i personally think that it would be surprise to achieve it in such short period nowadays.


I think it's highly unlikely to be honest. Romania and Bulgaria are still no closer to joining, and it would be a political no-no to let Croatia in while keeping those two out. 

The big question for me is whether Croatia is adequately guarding the external Schengen frontier while having well equipped border crossings. Some of them are excellent, but can Schengen really tolerate the situation in Metkovic with the petrol station just within Bosnian territory but only accessible from Croatia?

With those local border crossings, they're just a stupid nuisance. I understand limiting them to EU+Bosnia, but we're supposed to have a union here - and those local-only border crossings more or less restrict my rights to freedom of movement. 

Allowing locals to cross the border at any point - good idea. Restricting physical border crossings with guards to locals? Stupid. Can anyone think of one justification to have them only open to locals?


----------



## x-type

Eulanthe said:


> I think it's highly unlikely to be honest. Romania and Bulgaria are still no closer to joining, and it would be a political no-no to let Croatia in while keeping those two out.


speaking about political no-noes - Romania and Bulgaria entered EU before Croatia. isn't that enough?


----------



## BL2

Eulanthe said:


> With those local border crossings, they're just a stupid nuisance. I understand limiting them to EU+Bosnia, but we're supposed to have a union here - and those local-only border crossings more or less* restrict my rights to freedom of movement. *


very selfish of you, while demanding more freedom of movement for you at the same time you complain how Bosnians are not controlling strict enough.


----------



## aubergine72

x-type said:


> speaking about political no-noes - Romania and Bulgaria entered EU before Croatia. isn't that enough?


Not at all, since those two countries are infinitely more important geo*politically * than Croatia.


----------



## Road_UK

Oh for crying out loud it's Laurel and Hardy again. Eulanthe you go this way. BL2 you go the other way. And stop hogging this thread.


----------



## Singidunum

Judging by the sweet lemon tone and knowing it from some other situations I sense it's already known that Croatia won't make it in 2016 for some other reasons other than the stalling of Bulgaria and Romania. But yes I can't see Croatia joining before the two even if there were no other issues and that is unfair IMO. Actually stalling Bulgaria and Romania might even be illegal. If those countries didn't want them in the EU they shouldn't have ratified the accession treaty. Now it's just pathetic behavior, they are in the EU and that's it, not allowing them into Schengen might bring populist politicians a few votes but it won't make a difference.


----------



## Singidunum

Eulanthe said:


> Some of them are excellent, but can Schengen really tolerate the situation in Metkovic with the petrol station just within Bosnian territory but only accessible from Croatia?
> Allowing locals to cross the border at any point - good idea.


You don't make much sense here. Some silly petrol station situation is a grand security risk for the EU but allowing locals to cross outside designated crossings is not? What would stop anyone from crossing anywhere if there is no control?


----------



## BL2

Road_UK said:


> Oh for crying out loud it's Laurel and Hardy again. Eulanthe you go this way. BL2 you go the other way. And stop hogging this thread.


Whats your problem, stop telling people what to write. 
Interesting reading for you.


----------



## Road_UK

You're preaching to the choir dude. But I got 2 infractions because of this kind of shit, and a hell of a lot of posts gets deleted here when deemed off topic. Posts a lot of people have contributed to. You don't know this section very well, but I want to see more border crossings now, and I am wondering if the policy here is going to change only because a mod out of town is getting actively involved. I'd be very disappointed but not surprised.


----------



## Penn's Woods

I didn't know the CIS still existed.


----------



## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> I didn't know the CIS still existed.


It does, but its crumbling. It is nothing more than a partnership between Russia and Belarus really. Georgia walked out a few years ago, and the Ukraine (even though a founding member) is a associated member only.


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> It does, but its crumbling. It is nothing more than a partnership between Russia and Belarus really. Georgia walked out a few years ago, and the Ukraine (even though a founding member) is a associated member only.


And Kazakhstan. Those three countries form the Eurasian Union. It's mostly an economical\custom union but it's also strongly politicized (i.e. it's an attempt by Putin to control some satellite states like the USSR used to control Warsaw Pact countries). For example, those countries are among the few in the world to recognize the Crimean referendum (the other are Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, Syria and other minor).
Obviously, Georgia, the Baltic Republics and (part of) the Ukraine are strongly anti-Russian.
Two CIS members, Armenia and Azerbaijan, are technically still at war each other (though they aren't actively fighting, like the two Koreas).


----------



## volodaaaa

italystf said:


> And Kazakhstan. Those three countries form the Eurasian Union. It's mostly an economical\custom union but it's also strongly politicized (i.e. it's an attempt by Putin to control some satellite states like the USSR used to control Warsaw Pact countries). For example, those countries are among the few in the world to recognize the Crimean referendum (the other are Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, Syria and other minor).
> Obviously, Georgia, the Baltic Republics and (part of) the Ukraine are strongly anti-Russian.
> Two CIS members, Armenia and Azerbaijan, are technically still at war each other (though they aren't actively fighting, like the two Koreas).


Actually something to wish to be part of. :lol:


----------



## Singidunum

Road_UK said:


> It does, but its crumbling. It is nothing more than a partnership between Russia and Belarus really. Georgia walked out a few years ago, and the Ukraine (even though a founding member) is a associated member only.


Thanks for discussing the border crossings.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Someone else brought up the CIS, in the context of who was able to use a given crossing; I asked a question about it; he answered it. If it was off topic, it was barely so, it wouldn't be the first time any discussion had gone off topic around here, and I for one don't see your name under the heading "relevancy police" on this forum.

(Now, that was off topic....)


----------



## Road_UK

^^ He showed up a couple weeks ago, escalating this thread. But because he is a mod from out of town he gets away with it.


----------



## Singidunum

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Someone else brought up the CIS, in the context of who was able to use a given crossing; I asked a question about it; he answered it. If it was off topic, it was barely so, it wouldn't be the first time any discussion had gone off topic around here, and I for one don't see your name under the heading "relevancy police" on this forum.
> 
> (Now, that was off topic....)


Don't worry, I was specifically targeting Road_UK who yelled at everyone on this thread for not narrowly discussing physical aspects of border crossing structures only. I actually argue that all aspects should be discussed such as whether a certain crossing is open to all nationalities and aspects of it.


----------



## Road_UK

Singidunum said:


> Don't worry, I was specifically targeting Road_UK who yelled at everyone on this thread for not narrowly discussing physical aspects of border crossing structures only. I actually argue that all aspects should be discussed such as whether a certain crossing is open to all nationalities and aspects of it.


First of all I never said that, and second: you starting discussing politics on here. A lot of the regulars here agreed with me that we should go back to border crossings. But because this section is being moderated with double standards, you got away with it, and my request got deleted.


----------



## Kanadzie

Eulanthe said:


> Is that seriously a "no coach and horses" sign there?


To maintain correct space-time continuum, may only have transport devices of adjacent generations in same area, so horse and coach can go along with cars, but when there are space shuttles, only cars allowed and nothing "older" :lol:

In Montreal, Canada there are several such "no coach and horses" signs, mostly to control tourist coach traffic to certain areas.


----------



## volodaaaa

Kanadzie said:


> To maintain correct space-time continuum, may only have transport devices of adjacent generations in same area, so horse and coach can go along with cars, but when there are space shuttles, only cars allowed and nothing "older" :lol:
> 
> In Montreal, Canada there are several such "no coach and horses" signs, mostly to control tourist coach traffic to certain areas.


I the signs are installed due to possibility of a horse getting scared of noise.


----------



## italystf

volodaaaa said:


> I the signs are installed due to possibility of a horse getting scared of noise.


Or more probably because they slow down traffic.


----------



## BL2

italystf said:


> And Kazakhstan. Those three countries form the Eurasian Union. It's mostly an economical\custom union but it's also strongly politicized (i.e. it's an attempt by Putin to control some satellite states like the USSR used to control Warsaw Pact countries). For example, those countries are among the few in the world to recognize the Crimean referendum (the other are Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, Syria and other minor).
> Obviously, Georgia, the Baltic Republics and (part of) the Ukraine are strongly anti-Russian.
> Two CIS members, Armenia and Azerbaijan, are technically still at war each other (though they aren't actively fighting, like the two Koreas).


And Schengen is an attempt by Merkel & CO to control some satellite states like the USSR used to control Warsaw Pact countries) :nuts:


Singidunum said:


> Don't worry, I was specifically targeting Road_UK who yelled at everyone on this thread for not narrowly discussing physical aspects of border crossing structures only. I actually argue that all aspects should be discussed such as whether a certain crossing is open to all nationalities and aspects of it.


+1
He is playing moderator all time telling people what to write, sending them off the thread if he didn't like what they were writing.


----------



## italystf

BL2 said:


> And Schengen is an attempt by Merkel & CO to control some satellite states like the USSR used to control Warsaw Pact countries)


You mean EU. Schengen is just about free movement of people, rather than a political union. Now countries can whether to join EU. Warsaw Pact countries, instead, were assigned to the USSR after WWII and had not other choises. If they tried to free themselves and change, Russians sent their tanks, like in Czechoslovakia and Hungary (although Americans did the same in Chile and Granada and attempted to do the same in Cuba). The Cold War "equilibrium" estabilished that the USA and the USSR must control their sphere of influence and intervent militarily when a country attempted to change side. This was called Truman doctrine in the USA and Breznev doctrine in the USSR.


----------



## italystf

USA-Canada border between British Columbia and Alaska








The American village of Hyder is accessible only from Canada and borders the Canadian village of Stewart. So, it is a pene-enclave.
The border crossing has only Canadian staff. Between the twin villages there is a time zone change. Both currencies are used in the same area.


----------



## Road_UK

italystf said:


> USA-Canada border between British Columbia and Alaska
> 
> The American village of Hyder is accessible only from Canada and borders the Canadian village of Stewart. So, it is a pene-enclave.
> The border crossing has only Canadian staff. Between the twin villages there is a time zone change. Both currencies are used in the same area.


There is a valley like that in Austria, called Kleinwalsertal, which by road is only accessible from Germany. You can only ski or hike to that valley from the rest of Austria. Before Schengen it used to be a part of the German customs and excise area.


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## volodaaaa

I've been brought up in Devinska Nova Ves, the municipality on the border between Austria and Slovakia. Some photos from pre-schengen era I took during my very later childhood.

This is not exactly my artwork, I've just flattened my photo from 2003 with scanned image from book (it said the photo was taken in 1987). It is literally the Iron Curtain. GSV










The signs displays "Attention! Country border! Installed circa 1990









The leftovers from Iron Curtain. Still present by now.









Confluence of river Morava and Danube by Devin Castle. The sign says "Attention, the country border runs through the center of the river". The similar photo (taken in winter), but better quality


----------



## BL2

italystf said:


> You mean EU. Schengen is just about free movement of people, rather than a political union. Now countries can whether to join EU. Warsaw Pact countries, instead, were assigned to the USSR after WWII and had not other choises. If they tried to free themselves and change, Russians sent their tanks, like in Czechoslovakia and Hungary (although Americans did the same in Chile and Granada and attempted to do the same in Cuba). The Cold War "equilibrium" estabilished that the USA and the USSR must control their sphere of influence and intervent militarily when a country attempted to change side. This was called Truman doctrine in the USA and Breznev doctrine in the USSR.


And CSI is same as Warsaw pact so countries do not choose to be part of it, they are assigned to CSi? Did I get it right?


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## Singidunum

I am not sure if this was posted, construction commenced on new crossing in Kadibogaz between Serbia and Bulgaria http://goo.gl/maps/jH9DC 

[dailymotion]x21rm9u_postavljen-kamen-temeljac-za-granicni-prelaz-kadibogaz-19-jul-2014_news#from=embediframe[/dailymotion]


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## Eulanthe

Voladaaa, do you have any knowledge as to why the Bratislava-Jarovce crossing on the D4 was only open to small trucks and cars?

I was reading through some old documents a while ago, and it seems that all heavy truck traffic was routed through Berg, even after Slovakia joined the EU.


----------



## BL2

Eulanthe said:


> For me, I find it hard to trust the Schengen system as long as many countries don't even conduct a so-called 'minimum check' on travellers.


If you want ghetto just move to North Korea you can trust their police and army.


----------



## alserrod

off-topic....

In the city where I live we have a quite small airport, it is the fifth city in the country, though. The reason is that there is a quite good high speed railway service (thus few domestic flights) and quite near to other major airports.


One day, with only three flights in the whole day, two of them where almost at the same time. Both of them operated by Ryanair and... two quite different destinations within fifteen minutes of departure.

Two passengers where seated in the wrong plane and arrived to a different destination!!!!!.

Amazing. Only three flights in that day and they have a mistake. 

Ryanair was fined because it is clear that the number of passengers on board didn't match with the boarding cards taken as well as they had baggage in the planes (and it could be a bomb...).


They were both of them Schengen destinations (I think that Lanzarote and Bergamo) but should it happens with a charter flight... you can know how to take out from Schengen area... you just say nothing and any Schengen country authority would have requested your ID or passport...


----------



## Eulanthe

BL2 said:


> If you want ghetto just move to North Korea you can trust their police and army.


Nothing to do with a ghetto and everything to do with wanting the integrity and stability of the Schengen zone.

Ever been to Calais? If you had, you'd know why a strong external frontier is needed. The situation in Ceuta is similar - like it or hate it, the Schengen area is very attractive for economic migrants. 

What's the point in Poland or Slovakia having strong external frontiers if France or Greece can't be bothered to secure it properly? I'm not asking for thorough examinations, but opening the passport and conducting a visual check isn't too much to ask for, is it?



> So what happens in Chania when two flights arrive at the same time, from Amsterdam and Moscow?


From a technical point of view, pretty simple - they let everyone from Amsterdam go first, then the border police can do their job. One interesting aspect about Schengen implementation in airports is that very few airports have separate "blue" and "green" lanes for the purposes of Customs control.

http://www.viennaairport.com/jart/prj3/va/images/img-db/1370899997799.jpg

I found an example here - the problem is that if you read the EU law which removed Customs barriers in 1993, it's clear that there should be no element of control - merging blue and green lane traffic means that there's still monitoring of individuals.


----------



## Stravinsky

Eulanthe said:


> they could just shift non-Schengen flights to a part of the terminal that can be easily barricaded off with passport controls.


And that's what airports with a mainly Schengen traffic regularly do. 

I remember at El Prat how we were segregated from the rest of the airport (we were going to the UK) and had no access to shops or restaurant but just a McDonald's.


----------



## BL2

what's with stability of Schengen zone, who should be EU afraid of so this should be so imperative? Building walls doesn't make stability, tearing them down does. 

Economic migrants is so lame excuse. They can not start work if they just came to Schengen area, they need regular papers and working permits. 
Checking papers and visual checks doesn't solve anything, entering Schengen area is not problem, staying there is.


----------



## OulaL

Lithuania-Poland-Russia tripoint.



















And yes, that's me. Photo credits to Mirka Lintula.


----------



## Palance

Train station Lille Europe in northern France.

Left part of the platform: In Schengen (train to Amsterdam departed here). Right part of the platform: outside Schengen (train to London departed here). Seperated by glass (as seen on the second picture). Pics taken inside the Schengen area 


















Passport control by both French and British police are done on this station:









Zoom:


----------



## alserrod

I read on a blog about someone spotting that tripoint, knowing he could be fined but as well that... it is not an easy tripoint to arrive


----------



## Palance

Spotting will not be fined, but crossing it to/from Russia will be.


----------



## OulaL

alserrod said:


> I read on a blog about someone spotting that tripoint, knowing he could be fined but as well that... it is not an easy tripoint to arrive


Which do you mean? Lithuania-Poland-Russia-tripoint is very easy to arrive, just 100 metres from the nearest road (from Poland).

Finland-Norway-Russia, mentioned earlier in the thread, is harder - several kilometres from the nearest road (from Norway), and that road itself is pretty remote - 100 km from E6 which is the only connection to anywhere else.

In any case, there is nothing to be fined in either as long as you don't cross the Russian border. Finland-Norway as well as Lithuania-Poland borders can be crossed freely anywhere. 

Just notice that Finland has a border zone towards Russia, and that zone begins right next to the tripoint; visiting the border zone requires a separate permit, which must be obtained from the Border Guard in advance. The border zone signs are clearly seen on Skyline's post.

There is, however, a narrow path between the border zone and Norway so that you can freely walk from the tripoint to the rest of Finland. Not that there'd be any point to a mere border spotter in doing so. There's nothing on the Finnish side except a hundred kilometres of wilderness with forests, swamps and lakes.


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> I read on a blog about someone spotting that tripoint, knowing he could be fined but as well that... it is not an easy tripoint to arrive


I suspect it's rather like the PL-SK-UA tripoint - strictly speaking, it might be illegal to enter/leave Russia there, but no-one is going to hand out a fine to someone in the immediate tripoint area.


----------



## Verso

OulaL said:


> In any case, there is nothing to be fined in either as long as you don't cross the Russian border. *Finland-Norway* as well as Lithuania-Poland borders can be crossed freely anywhere.


Unless you have something to declare, right? (FIN-N)


----------



## OulaL

Verso said:


> Unless you have something to declare, right?


Yes, good point.


----------



## Verso

OulaL said:


> Yes, good point.


Am I right that you only declare goods at FIN-N border crossings if you _choose_ to? (and risk fine if you don't) But who will know if you don't declare? AFAIK, the Swiss always ask you, if you have sth to declare on its border with the EU (obviously only on roads, railways, ports and airports though, not in the nature).


----------



## OulaL

Verso said:


> Am I right that you only declare goods at FIN-N border crossings if you _choose_ to? (and risk fine if you don't) But who will know if you don't declare? AFAIK, the Swiss always ask you, if you have sth to declare on its border with the EU (obviously only on roads, railways, ports and airports though, not in the nature).


There are random checks on the roads. Never heard of them in the wilderness, though.

Then again, the things most frequently smuggled are alcohol and cigarettes. They require space and it's hardly profitable to carry large amounts of them by foot. Also remember that we're talking about an area with no human habitation in tens of kilometres, sometimes a hundred.


----------



## alserrod

Palance said:


> Spotting will not be fined, but crossing it to/from Russia will be.




I found this picture










and blog writter said that it was completely illegal but he took (he came from the opposite side of the continent, he loves these kind of pictures just glancing his blog and... no many chances to take it).
He says that maybe police is registering his IP or so... as a joke


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> Which do you mean? Lithuania-Poland-Russia-tripoint is very easy to arrive, just 100 metres from the nearest road (from Poland).
> 
> Finland-Norway-Russia, mentioned earlier in the thread, is harder - several kilometres from the nearest road (from Norway), and that road itself is pretty remote - 100 km from E6 which is the only connection to anywhere else.
> 
> In any case, there is nothing to be fined in either as long as you don't cross the Russian border. Finland-Norway as well as Lithuania-Poland borders can be crossed freely anywhere.
> 
> Just notice that Finland has a border zone towards Russia, and that zone begins right next to the tripoint; visiting the border zone requires a separate permit, which must be obtained from the Border Guard in advance. The border zone signs are clearly seen on Skyline's post.
> 
> There is, however, a narrow path between the border zone and Norway so that you can freely walk from the tripoint to the rest of Finland. Not that there'd be any point to a mere border spotter in doing so. There's nothing on the Finnish side except a hundred kilometres of wilderness with forests, swamps and lakes.


The current arrangements around the tripoint are rather new. Earlier, it was not legal to approach the point from Finland. But it was legal to walk from Finland to Norway and make the approach from Norway. Nowadays the regulations for the frontier zone have been relieved in several areas, including that tripoint area. (The frontier guard organization got exhausted about writing tens of thousands access permits for tourists every year. Now the most popular areas can be visited freely.)

The walking distance from the closest road in Finland to the tripoint is about 12 kilometers in the wilderness.


----------



## alserrod

And... Hasn't Russia considered to offer a Visa to enter for a while in their territory. A single document to stay in that area and I am pretty sure that people would pay for it (anyone who go so far just to see a border would want to cross it)


----------



## Alex_ZR

So Serbian passport holders can freely walk around PL-LT-RUS tripoint...unless it's considered as illegal crossing a border.


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> There are random checks on the roads. Never heard of them in the wilderness, though.
> 
> Then again, the things most frequently smuggled are alcohol and cigarettes. They require space and it's hardly profitable to carry large amounts of them by foot. Also remember that we're talking about an area with no human habitation in tens of kilometres, sometimes a hundred.


Yes. And the surveillance really is active in the wilderness even if it is invisible. If you carry two cases of beer, 24 cans each, close to the border, you are quite likely to meeting a frontier guard patrol wishing to chat with you for a while. Most probably, anyone hiking in the area close to the border will be observed by the frontier guard.


----------



## Singidunum

Alex_ZR said:


> So Serbian passport holders can freely walk around PL-LT-RUS tripoint...unless it's considered as illegal crossing a border.


Between Poland and Lithuania - yes. Crossing into Russia means a fine of 500 zloty. http://www.panoramio.com/photo/82783276


----------



## Verso

Alex_ZR said:


> So Serbian passport holders can freely walk around PL-LT-RUS tripoint...unless it's considered as illegal crossing a border.


It has nothing to do with that. I can't just walk freely into Croatia just because I don't need a visa to enter it.


----------



## OulaL

alserrod said:


> I found this picture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and blog writter said that it was completely illegal but he took


Indeed, this is illegal, because in this case the photographer (at least a hand) is in Russia. And even if he had entered Russia legally (which he probably hadn't done here), that doesn't mean that he could walk within Russia everywhere he'd like. Especially not in the border areas, they require a permit of their own.

In my pictures, neither me nor the photographer are in Russia.



Alex_ZR said:


> So Serbian passport holders can freely walk around PL-LT-RUS tripoint...unless it's considered as illegal crossing a border.


It is. The nearest legal border crossings to Russia are about 30 km from here, from either side.



Singidunum said:


> Between Poland and Lithuania - yes. Crossing into Russia means a fine of 500 zloty. http://www.panoramio.com/photo/82783276


And that's just Poland; Lithuania may give a fine of its own. Let alone Russia itself. Depend, of course, on where you get caught: most tourists visit this site from Poland and never get more than a few steps away of it.



MattiG said:


> Nowadays the regulations for the frontier zone have been relieved in several areas, including that tripoint area. (The frontier guard organization got exhausted about writing tens of thousands access permits for tourists every year. Now the most popular areas can be visited freely.)


However here it seems like the best path enters the border zone anyway some 1,5 km northwest of the tripoint. I'm not aware how passable those swamps are on the northern side of the border zone (or do they have duckboard paths as well, even if not shown on the map). Except winter of course.

http://kansalaisen.karttapaikka.fi/...rra&styles=normal&lang=fi&tool=siirra&lang=fi

Note to others: the thick purple line is the Finnish border, the thin purple line is the outer limit of the border zone. This map doesn't show the Norwegian-Russian border at all, but anyway the tripoint is at the eastern corner.


----------



## Aokromes

They must make tourist area of those places, for sure they can get money


----------



## alserrod

OulaL said:


> Indeed, this is illegal, because in this case the photographer (at least a hand) is in Russia. And even if he had entered Russia legally (which he probably hadn't done here), that doesn't mean that he could walk within Russia everywhere he'd like. Especially not in the border areas, they require a permit of their own.




In his blog, blogger says that his friend took several tours around the monument so completely illegal.....


----------



## Singidunum

I presume walking around the monument on the cobblestone is tolerated, crossing further into Russia is probably not.


----------



## Road_UK

The Russian border with the EU is well protected. But I still wonder how it is possible that Estonian and Russian border guards are able to straddle into each others countries. A Estonian border guard is abducted by the Russian FSA yesterday apparently on Estonian territory, but taken to Russia.


----------



## Singidunum

It may have happened in the Saatse Boot.

http://goo.gl/maps/Be0Bl
http://goo.gl/maps/lxI0F


----------



## Palance

Singidunum said:


> I presume walking around the monument on the cobblestone is tolerated, crossing further into Russia is probably not.


No, because you enter Russia/leave Schengen zone not via an official border post. So walking around it means you illegally crosss a border.


----------



## Alex_ZR

So, what's the point of this tripoint marking, when it's illegal to walk around it? There should barbed wire to mark the Russian territory.:guns1:


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> Indeed, this is illegal, because in this case the photographer (at least a hand) is in Russia. And even if he had entered Russia legally (which he probably hadn't done here), that doesn't mean that he could walk within Russia everywhere he'd like. Especially not in the border areas, they require a permit of their own.
> 
> In my pictures, neither me nor the photographer are in Russia.
> 
> 
> 
> It is. The nearest legal border crossings to Russia are about 30 km from here, from either side.
> 
> 
> 
> And that's just Poland; Lithuania may give a fine of its own. Let alone Russia itself. Depend, of course, on where you get caught: most tourists visit this site from Poland and never get more than a few steps away of it.
> 
> 
> 
> However here it seems like the best path enters the border zone anyway some 1,5 km northwest of the tripoint. I'm not aware how passable those swamps are on the northern side of the border zone (or do they have duckboard paths as well, even if not shown on the map). Except winter of course.
> 
> http://kansalaisen.karttapaikka.fi/...rra&styles=normal&lang=fi&tool=siirra&lang=fi
> 
> Note to others: the thick purple line is the Finnish border, the thin purple line is the outer limit of the border zone. This map doesn't show the Norwegian-Russian border at all, but anyway the tripoint is at the eastern corner.


 The area is rather difficult to walk. That is why visiting the tripoint by hiking is not very popular. People visit it usually in winter, riding snow scooters.


----------



## Singidunum

Palance said:


> No, because you enter Russia/leave Schengen zone not via an official border post. So walking around it means you illegally crosss a border.


The key word is "tolerated". While it is illegal it doesn't seem like there is someone ready to jump at you and fine you if you walk around the stone.


----------



## OulaL

Alex_ZR said:


> So, what's the point of this tripoint marking, when it's illegal to walk around it? There should barbed wire to mark the Russian territory.:guns1:


Well, it looks nice...

And there actually is a fence on the Russian territory, just a few metres from the actual borderline.



Singidunum said:


> The key word is "tolerated". While it is illegal it doesn't seem like there is someone ready to jump at you and fine you if you walk around the stone.


A Polish guard riding his ATV actually appeared within 2 minutes of our arrival. Of course it might have been a coincidence. He never said anything and neither did we say anything to him, but I guess that we were under surveillance.


----------



## Verso

OulaL said:


> Indeed, this is illegal, because in this case the photographer (at least a hand) is in Russia. And even if he had entered Russia legally (which he probably hadn't done here), that doesn't mean that he could walk within Russia everywhere he'd like. Especially not in the border areas, they require a permit of their own.


How annoying for Russian tourists. 



Aokromes said:


> They must make tourist area of those places, for sure they can get money


Russians get money by issuing permits to approach.


----------



## Road_UK

Did he at least greet you?


----------



## MattiG

Road_UK said:


> The Russian border with the EU is well protected. But I still wonder how it is possible that Estonian and Russian border guards are able to straddle into each others countries. A Estonian border guard is abducted by the Russian FSA yesterday apparently on Estonian territory, but taken to Russia.


The incident took place at the disputed area. Estonia and Russia signed an agreement to close the dispute in February, but it still is open in the Russian Duma. The border is not yet clearly marked. Both countries say the person was on their side.


----------



## Eulanthe

Road_UK said:


> The Russian border with the EU is well protected. But I still wonder how it is possible that Estonian and Russian border guards are able to straddle into each others countries. A Estonian border guard is abducted by the Russian FSA yesterday apparently on Estonian territory, but taken to Russia.


The whole situation seems very weird - yet it was obviously done by people with security services backing. They wouldn't have been jamming communications if it was just a routine arrest on disputed territory, so it was obviously done for a reason. 



> The key word is "tolerated". While it is illegal it doesn't seem like there is someone ready to jump at you and fine you if you walk around the stone.


I think it's probably based on common sense. No-one is going to bother someone who goes a couple of steps into Russian territory, but going more than a couple metres over the borderline would probably provoke a response. 

What's strange is that while they mention the fine clearly with the border with Russia, they don't mention anything such on the PL-SK-UA tripoint. I wonder why? 

Having said this, the Polish border guards tend to use common sense in my experience. A friend was caught in the UA side of the border in Bieszczady, although just a few metres - they told him to cross back to PL before the Ukrainians caught him, checked and recorded his identity and told him to go back to Wolosate immediately. 

Incidentally, in the Balkans at least, most countries have laws that allow you to obtain a permit to cross the border at a named point, day and time - for instance, if you want to cross at Zeljava, you can apply for a permit that allows you to cross there, and they handle the formalities with the other border guard service.


----------



## Kanadzie

Eulanthe said:


> The whole situation seems very weird - yet it was obviously done by people with security services backing. They wouldn't have been jamming communications if it was just a routine arrest on disputed territory, so it was obviously done for a reason.


A bad one, like Venlo :lol:


----------



## GulfArabia

*>>* IRQ-KSA |APP| Border Security Project (900km)

*Saudis build 550-mile fence to shut out Iraq*










Security in Iraq has collapsed so dramatically that Saudi Arabia has ordered the construction of a 550-mile high-tech fence to seal off its troubled northern neighbour.

The huge project to build the barrier, which will be equipped with ultraviolet night-vision cameras, buried sensor cables and thousands of miles of barbed wire, will snake across the vast and remote desert frontier between the countries.
...
...
For many years Saudi plans to improve security on the Iraqi border have been part of a vast multi-billion-pound air, sea and land-based project to protect the whole country, known as Miksa, or Ministry of Interior Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The scheme aims to ring the country with hundreds of radar facilities, coastal sonar detection bases, a telecommunications network and patrols by reconnaissance aircraft.

But the huge centralised project, which one defence contractor who works closely with the Saudi government valued at up to £13 billion, has been slow to get off the ground. Now the kingdom has decided that it cannot afford to wait for Miksa to stave off the threat of violence spilling over from Iraq. Contractors competing for the project will have to promise that they can complete the whole 550 miles of fence within a year.

"Everyone you speak to in Saudi Arabia says it is now desperately urgent," said Anthony Forester-Bennett, from Westminster International, a British company bidding to help build the fence. "They say there's a real danger of very nasty people coming across from Iraq."

Analysts said that even taking into account delays and disputes that usually accompany such valuable military contracts, the fence was on course to be finished by the early summer of 2008. The total cost is expected to reach at least £300 million,

Once complete it will revolutionise border security, where currently the best weapons in the fight against terrorists are 100 sniffer-dog teams who patrol the frontier.

Outwardly it will appear mundane, with two metal barriers running 100 yards apart, lined with barbed wire at the base and top. On the Iraqi side, alarms will notify patrols if an intruder attempts to scale or cut through the fence. Between the two fences will be yet more barbed wire, piled in a tall pyramid.

But its effectiveness will rely on its more sophisticated or hidden counter-measures. Under the baking sand will be buried sensor cables relaying a silent alarm to monitoring posts at regular intervals along the border. At the posts, face-recognition software will process pictures relayed from cameras, which will also be able to operate at night.

"The costs are not going to be about just building the fence but equipping it too," said Mr Obaid. Behind the line of the fence, command and control centres with heliports would provide bases for troops to respond to any alert.

For Saudi Arabia, terrorists and refugees from the conflict are not the only unwelcome intruders.

"We suffer badly from illegal immigration, as well as the smuggling of drugs, weapons and even prostitutes," said Mr Obaid. "It is becoming a major issue."

Despite the details emerging about the fence, Saudi Arabia's military is keeping some aspects under wraps. According to one source, the project is being kept so secret that military officials from Centcom, America's central command responsible for Iraq, have been told they cannot inspect the site on "national security" grounds.

Even spy satellites will not be able to unravel the fence's secrets. The source speculated that the reason for the secrecy might be automated weapons systems attached to the fence that could fire on suspected smugglers or intruders.

"It's being done in true Saudi style," the source said. "State-of-the-art equipment and no expense spared."telegraph

*>>* IRQ-KSA |APP| Border Security Project (900km)


----------



## OulaL

Verso said:


> How annoying for Russian tourists.


Well, if a Russian tourist gets a Schengen visa (which isn't that hard in the end), they are free to visit the tripoint from Poland or Lithuania... but still not from Russia.



Road_UK said:


> Did he at least greet you?


If you're asking me about the Polish border guard, no.


----------



## CNGL

Ingenioren said:


> Canaries have a larger population than Alaska and Hawaii. I guess if they became independent they wouldn't be allowed back into Eu since they are in Africa


Since French Guiana is _French_ it is in the EU. If it was independent then it couldn't into EU because it's in South America. And I used to think it was independent!

PS OT: I like to put Canaries in any time zone but the one they actually are on (One hour behind mainland Spain).


----------



## alserrod

Road_UK said:


> Dominican Republic with Haiti for example. And Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. And maybe next year UK with Scotland. And France/Netherlands on St Martin.


and Tierra del Fuego (Chile-Argentina)
https://www.google.es/maps/@-54.4406288,-67.9655906,456808m/data=!3m1!1e3

Cyprus,

a little island Finland-Sweeden with no population


and so on...



but... is Indonesia-Malaysia-Brunei the only island in the world with three countries?


----------



## KøbenhavnK

italystf said:


> Geographic location is not the main criterion to definy sovereignity. For example the Canaries, Azores, Madeira, Faer Oer, Svalbard are quite far away from their mainlands but they are still part of their countries and have cultural bounds with them. The cultural\linguistic\ethnic identity is a more relevant criterion.


Faroe Islands (and Greenland) are not as such part of Denmark. They are part of The Kingdom of Denmark. Both have strong local parliaments that take care of their domestic issues. There are elected representatives from both in the Danish parliament but the general rule is that they don't use their votes on domestic Danish issues.

Both have their own flags, languages and cultures and would like independence but it's not economically viable because there are only about 50.000 people in each place. 

Oh and by the way: What a stupid Italian law. Everybody in Europe and around The Mediterranean can claim Italian ancestry if only they go back far enough


----------



## alserrod

I order these pics



This is N-330 in the "summus portus" (Hence "Somport", in Latin "main Mountain Pass") just exiting Spain in the Aragonese region, central Pyrenees. It is the lowest pass and part of St.James Lane since middle age era.




VITORIA MAN said:


> the former road border
> somportajava_20080620_070857 by laerteocj, on Flickr




We turn back and see many signals. I will explain later... just a Candanchu ski resort by pass



Col du Somport by Martin M. Miles, on Flickr[/QUOTE]


Spain signal is almost in the border but region name is quite later to avoid many signals at the same time



Aragón Somport by blogsergio, on Flickr


----------



## Proterra

Nine more days :cheers::cheers::cheers:


----------



## alserrod

VITORIA MAN said:


> Col du Somport by centenair2010, on Flickr
> spanish side
> Vista de las montañas by Alberto Lizaga, on Flickr



Absolutely the best image at all


You will see four roads. Main (three lanes) coming from the right is the N-330 in Spain. The RN-134 in France barely appears in this picture. It comes from the left.

The road coming from the upper side of the picture is a branch to Astun ski-resort (2 km long) and the other one going to the downer side is the former N-330 that cross Candanchu ski resort centre (1 km away).

Candanchu road crossing with N-330 is almost in the whole border. That building in the cross is in Spain, the building in the left is in France and the former booths appears in the picture (a white spot)

The valley ahead in the centre is in Spain and border is in the mountains in the centre-left


----------



## VITORIA MAN

YOU are like a teacher..jejejej


----------



## alserrod

VITORIA MAN said:


> YOU are like a teacher..jejejej


:cheers:


I've passed several nice times in that area. Not easy to forget.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

mañooo !!!


----------



## broken0099

adevahi said:


> Anyway, I think Spain should try to make very strong laces with Puerto Rico, like *giving nationality* to the ones who wants them or increasing the business in this island


Hell no. Passports aren't credit cards. 

For the past years Spanish passports have been given out like candy. Many people who had a Spanish grand-grandfather have requested it just because it's convenient, even though they don't feel Spanish at all.

I hope someday those meaningless passports are revoked... maybe when Spain finally breaks apart :lol:


----------



## italystf

broken0099 said:


> Hell no. Passports aren't credit cards.
> 
> For the past years Spanish passports have been given out like candy. Many people who had a Spanish grand-grandfather have requested it just because it's convenient, even though they don't feel Spanish at all.
> 
> I hope someday those meaningless passports are revoked... maybe when Spain finally breaks apart :lol:


It's right, a nationality is something related to the individual's identity. It shouldn't be a consumer good that is sold and purchased on the market.
Changing nationality is OK, because someone may reside for long and assimilate in a country different that his\her birthplace. However, owning a citizenship should require some bounds with that country, like residing there for a certain time, speaking the local language, have a job, family and home.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

col d'ares , spanish-french border
e
Col d'Ares, vue côté espagnol by olive.titus, on Flickr
Coll d' Ares nevado en Febrero de 2010 by VisitPirineos.com, on Flickr
Relaxed at the Pyrenean border between France and Spain in Catalonia by JRJ., on Flickr
f
Col d'Ares, 1513 mètres, Pyrénées-Orientales, limite entre la France et l'Espagne by olive.titus, on Flickr
Coll d'Ares by c_a_r_l_o_s, on Flickr


----------



## alserrod

Another Spanish-French border. This time in Navarra.

This non-paved path is France, road remains for certain kilometres in Spain

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.9514...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sDTRVUZB86OuTpG6_qbkWdQ!2e0


just look that road will remain within Spain and I wonder where they made passport controls before Schengen because it is very easy to cross the border there.


Another tip: approaching the border we find a "loop"

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.9633...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sawdSregmsST3X475fv9NaQ!2e0


----------



## Ingenioren

alserrod said:


> but... is Indonesia-Malaysia-Brunei the only island in the world with three countries?


The tripoint FIN-NO-SE is also an island, photo of the first bordermarker in 1897 when it was Russia instead of Finland:







7

Here is a crossingpoint for FIN-NO in Pasvik - maybe the only border-fence between two Schengen countries (for livestock purposes):


----------



## Bori427

adevahi said:


> There are also people in Puerto Rico who want to return belonging to Spain:lol:
> 
> I heard about this movement long time ago, and these past weeks Puerto Rico national basketball team played in my city, so I could ask to some of the Puerto Rico fans who came here.
> They told me that, in fact, nearly everyone would like that because of historical, language and cultural reasons, but due to difficulties that the USA will create and because of economical and geographical reasons a lot of people accept that this probably will never happen.
> 
> Anyway, I think Spain should try to make very strong laces with Puerto Rico, like giving nationality to the ones who wants them or increasing the business in this island


BS, the "movement" that want's to reunite with Spain arelike 500 facebook users or less.


----------



## Bori427

g.spinoza said:


> Puerto Rico is a bit more complicated, though. Independence parties are quite strong, while Hawaii and Alaska basically have none of them.


40,000 voters "quite strong"?


----------



## Bori427

Verso said:


> I wonder why Hawaii, Alaska, and Puerto Rico aren't independent though.


Why would Puerto Rico want independence? There are over 1,500 puerto ricans moving to one of the 50 states every 10 days, currently there's over a million more puerto ricans living in the mainland than in the island.


----------



## alserrod

About Llivia enclave (https://www.google.es/maps/place/17...2!3m1!1s0x12a57cafb4ec1b39:0x85f4e91c4ba55324) I have found this news in El Pais - English edition, the readest Spanish newspaper.



> Llivia rises up before the visitor with a certain cinematic suspense. One heads through a tunnel (there are plenty of them there), and then suddenly, as you emerge into the light, you’re in another place. Each exit from each tunnel brings you into a magical landscape. Behind is the C-16 road down to Barcelona, which is about two hours away. The mountains engulf the visitor, their size and greenness dizzying. At this point the landscape settles into meadowland, dotted with farms and stone wooden-beamed houses. It takes a while to make the 1,300-meters-above-sea-level journey, but it is worth the effort.
> 
> 
> ...


More on

http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/09/04/inenglish/1409817452_821710.html


----------



## italystf

Bori427 said:


> BS, the "movement" that want's to reunite with Spain arelike 500 facebook users or less.


:lol: There were Facebook pages even to annex Lombardy to Switzerland or to give Alaska back to Russia (the latter happened shortly after the Crimean referendum).


----------



## Road_UK

It doesn't stop there. According to yesterday's London Evening Standard 1 in 5 Londoners want London to be independent from the UK.


----------



## alserrod

Or any archipelago routes, for instance


----------



## Eulanthe

italystf said:


> It's quite a problem that car ferries are entirely dependent by free market and not supported by any law.
> Apart some basic and very used routes, like Dover-Calais or Messina-Villa San Giovanni, other lines may be subjected by cancellations due to poor ridership or bankrupt of the operating company.


Yes, although the EU have been trying with the Motorway of the Seas concept. 

I suppose if Iceland and the Faroes were in the EU, then it's likely that a Iceland-Faroes-Shetland-Denmark route would be subsidised. It's always been a great regret of mine that I didn't manage to take the Aberdeen-Lerwick-Iceland connection while it existed.


----------



## Road_UK

Eulanthe said:


> Yes, although the EU have been trying with the Motorway of the Seas concept.
> 
> I suppose if Iceland and the Faroes were in the EU, then it's likely that a Iceland-Faroes-Shetland-Denmark route would be subsidised. It's always been a great regret of mine that I didn't manage to take the Aberdeen-Lerwick-Iceland connection while it existed.


Denmark yes, via Shetlands no. Traffic between Iceland and Scandinavia is already very low, and a link between Scotland - let alone the Shetlands would not be renable at all, however proud these Scots may be.


----------



## alserrod

Apart of Calais-Dover (and other ones in the nearby), which can be the most used ferry international routes?


----------



## Road_UK

italystf said:


> It's quite a problem that car ferries are entirely dependent by free market and not supported by any law.
> Apart some basic and very used routes, like Dover-Calais or Messina-Villa San Giovanni, other lines may be subjected by cancellations due to poor ridership or bankrupt of the operating company.


My all-time favourite Dover-Calais operator SeaFrance has gone bust three years ago. I am still upset about that. It was nice to have a no-nonsense French reliable company on that route in the middle of all that British health and safety malarky. All channel routes are run by Brits only now, with their hard hats, high viz jackets and safety shoes, and a million safety instructions... (caution, hot water from tap may result in blisters)


----------



## Road_UK

alserrod said:


> Apart of Calais-Dover (and other ones in the nearby), which can be the most used ferry international routes?


Algeciras-Tangiers?
Helsingor-Helsingborg?
Stockholm-Helsinki?
Puttgarden-Roedbyhavn?
Ancona to Greece?


----------



## Kanadzie

Road_UK said:


> Nah nah, Kanadzie.
> 
> Death, beheading, rape, violence...


It's too OT but I just can't get these guys... I can understand wanting to go and fight for some noble cause if you're young and hot blooded, Liberte Egalite Fraternite or whatever, but out there they're like, "yeah let's go do some beheadings!" and think its great, it's just so totally batshit insane how can you react...


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> Apart of Calais-Dover (and other ones in the nearby), which can be the most used ferry international routes?


For passengers, I suppose Hong Kong-China would count, Or Macau-China. 

In Europe, Tallinn-Helsinki must be one of the busiest around.


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> Algeciras-Tangiers?
> Helsingor-Helsingborg?
> Stockholm-Helsinki?
> Puttgarden-Roedbyhavn?
> Ancona to Greece?


Rostock-Gedser
Rostock-Trelleborg
Stockholm-Turku
Helsinki-Tallinn
Ancora-Zadar
Brindisi-Igoumenitsa


----------



## italystf

Eulanthe said:


> For passengers, I suppose Hong Kong-China would count, Or Macau-China.
> 
> In Europe, Tallinn-Helsinki must be one of the busiest around.


What about Singapore-Sumatra or Japan-S.Korea ?


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> Rostock-Gedser Rostock-Trelleborg Stockholm-Turku Helsinki-Tallinn Ancora-Zadar Brindisi-Igoumenitsa


Ancona - Split is stronger route than Ancona - Zadar. However I find then quite silly comparing to other mentioned here.


----------



## Road_UK

I always use Ancona-Patras when going to Athens.


----------



## OulaL

Road_UK said:


> Stockholm-Helsinki?


Stockholm-Turku is more used than Stockholm-Helsinki, when speaking about actual transport.

The routes have a little different customer segments. When talking about people actually travelling from one country to another (and continuing travelling in that another country) Stockholm-Turku is more popular, since it is faster and cheaper.

Then again, there are people to whom the ship is more important than the destination to which it sails. The Helsinki route has a larger share of cruise passengers than the Turku route.

The shorter distance between Stockholm and Turku allows the ships to make a return trip in 24 hours. Thus a cruise Stockholm-Turku-Stockholm (or v.v.) includes one night spent aboard, Stockholm-Helsinki-Stockholm (or v.v.) includes two and is of course a little more expensive. 

The leading passenger ship services on these routes are provided by TallinkSilja and Viking Line (also known as "the white ships" and "the red ships" respectively). The ships sail right following each other on both routes. On the Turku route there are two daily departures on each of them in each direction, on the Helsinki route only one. In addition to these, there are also some freight-only services on the Turku route.

Cruises on the Helsinki route also allow the passengers to spend a day (or well, 5 or 6 hours) in the destination city; on the Turku route they do not, unless the passenger returns on an another ship. To cruise passengers, given the very nature of such cruises, this is often unpleasant since the arrival is quite early.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Google just fed me an ad for ferries to Nova Scotia. Presumably (I didn't click on it) from Portland and/or Bar Harbor, Maine.


----------



## Penn's Woods

What I need, because I hate flying, is a ferry from Philadelphia or New York to Le Havre or Ostend or....

I know, keep dreaming.


----------



## Kanadzie

You could just hop from Bremen to New York on a boat of BMW's or something, surely they are nice enough to spend the trip inside, kostenlos! 

I wonder what they do with those auto-transport ships though... I would imagine the number of cars of the EU going to US to greatly exceed the flow the other way...


----------



## Road_UK

They were on about a tunnel and bullet train between Bristol, UK and NYC once...


----------



## italystf

OulaL said:


> Stockholm-Turku is more used than Stockholm-Helsinki, when speaking about actual transport.
> 
> The routes have a little different customer segments. When talking about people actually travelling from one country to another (and continuing travelling in that another country) Stockholm-Turku is more popular, since it is faster and cheaper.
> 
> Then again, there are people to whom the ship is more important than the destination to which it sails. The Helsinki route has a larger share of cruise passengers than the Turku route.
> 
> The shorter distance between Stockholm and Turku allows the ships to make a return trip in 24 hours. Thus a cruise Stockholm-Turku-Stockholm (or v.v.) includes one night spent aboard, Stockholm-Helsinki-Stockholm (or v.v.) includes two and is of course a little more expensive.
> 
> The leading passenger ship services on these routes are provided by TallinkSilja and Viking Line (also known as "the white ships" and "the red ships" respectively). The ships sail right following each other on both routes. On the Turku route there are two daily departures on each of them in each direction, on the Helsinki route only one. In addition to these, there are also some freight-only services on the Turku route.
> 
> Cruises on the Helsinki route also allow the passengers to spend a day (or well, 5 or 6 hours) in the destination city; on the Turku route they do not, unless the passenger returns on an another ship. To cruise passengers, given the very nature of such cruises, this is often unpleasant since the arrival is quite early.


The Viking Line ship between Stockholm and Helsinki is known in the internet as the "F***ing Boat" :lol: because of the many parties with booze and hot girls. Some people take that ship only for that reason, and this happens also because alchool is duty-free on ships.
Of course, it causes problems with drunk truck drivers who depart after a night on the ferry.


----------



## Road_UK

I always use Silja Line between Stockholm and Helsinki. That's where I met my wife...


----------



## x-type

i have will never understand how people are afraid of flying, but not of sailing.
for me a 7-days transatlantic sailing trip would be real adrenaline adventure. not too comfortable though.


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ ?? 










(This thread needs a bilingual theme song anyway :yes


parcdesprinces said:


> :cheers:


:bowtie:

P.S. Oh and it was a 4-day sailing (5 at worst), back in those glorious days. :baeh3:


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> I always use Silja Line between Stockholm and Helsinki. That's where I met my wife...


Which, given more recent developments, would seem like a disincentive.


----------



## Penn's Woods

x-type said:


> i have will never understand how people are afraid of flying, but not of sailing.
> for me a 7-days transatlantic sailing trip would be real adrenaline adventure. not too comfortable though.


If your boat sinks, you have a fighting chance of surviving.

And it would be more relaxed, if you have the time. No jet lag because you're changing about one time zone a day. And it would be fun to be able to take my car with me.

My boss, a couple of years ago, took what's called a "repositioning cruise." When a cruise ship spends the winter doing the Caribbean and the summer doing the Mediterranean, they need to move it across the Atlantic - "reposition" it - at some point, so it takes passengers, for what she told me was a very good price (she likes cruises). Sailed from New Jersey to Lisbon and then turned into a Mediterranean cruise, making a bunch more stops and ending up in Italy somewhere. She flew home. But these are probably only available in spring and fall.


----------



## alserrod

Google street view is now on Argentina too

Is this (100m ahead) the southest crossing border?

https://www.google.es/maps/@-54.004...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sd0782idN75k42kAvwTsSCw!2e0


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> Stockholm-Turku is more used than Stockholm-Helsinki, when speaking about actual transport.


The official statistics show figures which are not that straightforward.

The total number of international passengers at the ports on Finland in 2013 was about 18 million: 9 million departures and 9 million arrivals.

The "market share" of Sweden was 49% in this context and 43% for Estonia. All passenger traffic to Estonia goes via Helsinki, while there are four main routes between Finland and Sweden. The statistics show the passenger shares of the ports in SW Finland:

- Turku 16%
- Mariehamn 14%
- Eckerö 5%

Virtually all passenger traffic at these ports are bound for Sweden. The remaining 14% of the Finland-Sweden traffic goes via Helsinki. (The number of passengers on the Vaasa-Umeå route is negligible.)

Thus, in rough figures

Helsinki-Tallinn 7.7 million
Helsinki-Stockholm 2.5 million
Turku-Stockholm 2,9 million
Mariehamn-Stockholm 2.5 million
Eckerö-Grisslehamn 0.9 million

Meanwhile, the statistics distributed by the Port of Helsingborg tells us that the number of passengers was 7.7 million in 2013 on the HH-route. Thus, about equal to the Helsinki-Tallinn route.

Then it is time to speculate. Is cruising to be called 'traffic'? A big fraction of the people on the Helsinki-Tallinn and Turku-Stockholm routes are travelling to nowhere but spending their time aboard. Each of these person is counted as two: one departure and one arrival. The Mariehamn-Stockholm route is about 100% cruising.

On the Tallinn route, there even is a special service: Take your car with you for the day cruise, make your booze order at the shop, and the staff carries the booze to your car during the return trip. This is counted as two vehicles, one departing and one arriving, even if the car does not leave the ferry in Tallinn.

And: It is possible to reserve a table for a dinner on the Helsingborg-Helsingør route, and cross the strait as many times as needed. If someone has a dinner and spends say five return trips in the restaurant, is this single person counted as one, two, five or ten passengers?


----------



## italystf

Spanish and Portoguese police together at a border crossing.


----------



## italystf

Bridge on Tara river between BIH and MNE.


----------



## x-type

lol Nissan Leaf in Portugal's police fleet


----------



## alserrod

Nissan car is not Portuguese, is Spanish...


I've read that they do not work on border crossing (there is only two little villages to make something like that) but in main cities not far from the border. I think that city is Faro but not sure


----------



## x-type

alserrod said:


> Nissan car is not Portuguese, is Spanish...


huh? but it has P plates and P livery :dunno:


----------



## SRC_100

alserrod said:


> Nissan car is not Portuguese, is Spanish...


Come on, Citroen C4 has spanish plates and Nissan has portugueses. But maybe U are talking about country of orgin, if yes I only know that Citroen C4 Picasso is made in Spain, don`t know if Nissan Leaf as well.


----------



## Fatfield

^^

Nissan Leaf is made in my home city, Sunderland.


----------



## pai nosso

italystf said:


> Spanish and Portoguese police together at a border crossing.


*This photo, most likely, it isn`t at a border crossing but in a city* (probably Lisbon)!!


There is an exchange program between the two (urban » P.S.P. & Policia Nacional) police forces/countrys that once a year 2 policemen and a vehicle goes to the neighboring country to help the local forces!!

[urban police force: P.S.P.»Portugal & Policia Nacional»Spain]



The two police forces normally stationed at the borders is for Portugal the G.N.R. and for Spain the Guardia Civil!!



At Tui, spanish border town the G.N.R. and Guardia Civil share the same instalations at the border!!









Source: panoramio




x-type said:


> lol Nissan Leaf in Portugal's police fleet


Nissan »» the recent ones »»» that car on the photo above is electric »»» is for show:lol::lol:

Skoda »» the ten years ones!!


----------



## Penn's Woods

SRC_100 said:


> Come on, Citroen C4 has spanish plates and Nissan has portugueses. But maybe U are talking about country of orgin, if yes I only know that Citroen C4 Picasso is made in Spain, don`t know if Nissan Leaf as well.


The way I could tell which was which was by which I was accented. :cheers:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Yes, I was thinking 'now I know how to spell "police" in Spanish'.


----------



## Fern

pai nosso said:


> Nissan »» the recent ones »»» that car on the photo above is electric »»» is for show:lol::lol: Skoda »» the ten years ones!!


You see leafs in Lisbon quite often, but skodas and renaults are indeed the most common police cars.


----------



## OulaL

MattiG said:


> All passenger traffic to Estonia goes via Helsinki


Not all, there is also Mariehamn.

Obviously, this is just a little stop on the Stockholm-Tallinn service for taxation-related purposes, and the share of passengers actually boarding or landing in Mariehamn marginal; nevertheless, this affects Mariehamn's position on the list.


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> Not all, there is also Mariehamn.
> 
> Obviously, this is just a little stop on the Stockholm-Tallinn service for taxation-related purposes, and the share of passengers actually boarding or landing in Mariehamn marginal; nevertheless, this affects Mariehamn's position on the list.


The thru-passengers Stockholm-Tallinn are not included in the figures, even if the ferry calls at Mariehamn. The number of passengers on the Mariehamn-Tallinn route is negligible: less than one per cent of the total.


----------



## Corvinus

Unnamed road near Val Caldara (I) -> Strada del Lavoro, industrial zone, Acquaviva (RSM)

Photos taken Sep. 2014

1.










2.










3. Looking at the side onto _Torrente di San Marino_, which runs approx. (but not exactly) along the border line for some 5 kms between Gualdicciolo and the north-western edge of Castello di Chiesanuova sub-division. 











4. We're there.









In the opposite direction, there is no sign whatsoever for entering Italy; motto: "they will notice it early enough"


----------



## LMB

x-type said:


> lol Nissan Leaf in Portugal's police fleet


Do you realize that Portugal, in absolute terms, is poorer than Slovenia or Czech Republic?


----------



## x-type

ur police has also few BMW's 5 series, but E60. they use(d) them for special purposes like security during VIP visits (presidents, ministers).









they also have Toyota Land Cruisers. those should be also for special purposes, probably off apshalt, but i saw them often cruising around the city and doing - nothing. icard:


----------



## Road_UK

Normally I am getting my head chopped off for all this OT...


----------



## x-type

Road_UK said:


> Normally I am getting my head chopped off for all this OT...


mods must earn their bread :dunno:


----------



## alserrod

Getting back to border crossing... I've been in a basketball match today and I was wondering about teams movements for league matches.

In the Spanish main basketball league this year (again after 20ish years), an Andorran team is playing.

I wonder which will be the best route to go to Bilbao, San Sebastian and Vitoria. Will it be via France or Spain?. For Bilbao and Vitoria it seems better via Spain but for San Sebastian... I do not know.

For the rest of matches, always via Spain (and for Tenerife and Gran Canaria, plane way...)


----------



## Zagor666

This is a nice police car :cheers:


----------



## aubergine72

^^

But the livery is stupid.


----------



## Corvinus

dir. Cattolica (I) -> Cerbaiola (RSM)
Southernmost crossing by a "major" type road.

September 2014


----------



## alserrod

Which is maximum speed limit in the Italian side?


----------



## Corvinus

I also took these pics of the main I/RSM crossing, which connects San Marino's main "artery" road to Italy's SS 72 toward Rimini.

AFAIK this main crossing is the only one where Italians post their limits, which you see in the 2nd pic. If illegible: 50/90/110/130.

I imagine the majority of tourists (and Sammarinese) enter and leave here. Pics of this crossing have also been posted earlier in this thread. 

1.









2.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

f-b border at jeumont
cpa200 cb__299 by presquilien, on Flickr


----------



## Corvinus

^^ a year available / known for that border pic?


----------



## devo

My guess: Late 20's, early 30's. 

I guess it's a border gate, not a telegraph pole, in the middle of the road? There's a tower directly behind it right? Makes it look totally out of place, like a tree.


----------



## Corvinus

Chiasso (CH) -> Como (I) motorway crossing
Sep. 2014

1. 800m to border











2. cca. 500m to border











3. right after the crossing











4. 100m after crossing: "instructions" for motorway use


----------



## aubergine72

^^

You can really tell the difference between the two countries by looking at the road.


----------



## verreme

^^ And the driving. Drivers in that part of Switzerland are not particularly good, but once you cross that border it's anarchy. The narrow, winding tunnels after the crossing are a white-knuckle ride. It's like an initiation ritual to Italy .


----------



## italystf

Corvinus said:


> Chiasso (CH) -> Como (I) motorway crossing
> Sep. 2014


How many places in Europe have pedestrian crossings on a motorway?


----------



## Corvinus

verreme said:


> ^^ And the driving. Drivers in that part of Switzerland are not particularly good, but once you cross that border it's anarchy. The narrow, winding tunnels after the crossing are a white-knuckle ride. It's like an initiation ritual to Italy .


I wouldn't say anarchy, but the difference to CH is of course immediately remarkable. Right behind the border, speed excess of 40-60 km/h became common - also by Swiss-plated cars . Personally I didn't mind, as motorways' (original) purpose is to enable fast travel. 

The difference in quality of tolled and free roads on the way to San Marino was striking, though.



italystf said:


> How many places in Europe have pedestrian crossings on a motorway?


I guess _de jure_ it is not a motorway between the CH - I borderline and the motorway sign some 100 mts behind the border.


----------



## OulaL

Is the pedestrian crossing used by the public at all, or just the customs staff?


----------



## volodaaaa

italystf said:


> How many places in Europe have pedestrian crossings on a motorway?


There is no vertical sign. It might be perceived as invalid


----------



## italystf

volodaaaa said:


> There is no vertical sign. It might be perceived as invalid


In many places in Italy there is no vertical sign, usually on minor roads, though.


----------



## SvMp

Eulanthe said:


> Is it a joint control, or two separate border stations?


I've never seen a join control with Serbia. Does such border crossings exist with Serbia?

The only joint controls I've seen are between EU-countries.

EDIT: One exception, the only non-EU joint control I've seen is Sukobin/Muriqan (MNE/AL).


----------



## Alex_ZR

SvMp said:


> I've never seen a join control with Serbia. Does such border crossings exist with Serbia?


There's Bački Vinogradi(SRB)- Ásotthalom(H):


----------



## Eulanthe

SvMp said:


> I've never seen a join control with Serbia. Does such border crossings exist with Serbia?
> 
> The only joint controls I've seen are between EU-countries.
> 
> EDIT: One exception, the only non-EU joint control I've seen is Sukobin/Muriqan (MNE/AL).


There are some, for instance, Licko Petrovo Selo (HR/BiH) is a joint control, and of course Neum-Klek/Zaton Doli are also joint. There's also another one near Neum (I don't remember the name right now...) that is also joined. I've got a feeling that the Serbian and Kosovan Customs officers were supposed to work together, too. Then if you go north, there's two joint Polish-Ukrainian crossings too, such as at Kroscienko. It's worth pointing out however that most of these controls aren't joined in the way that the PL/DE border was between 2004-2007, but rather two countries conducting controls under one big roof.


----------



## italystf

Corvinus said:


> I could also understand Italy if they introduced an Australian-style coast protection (be it with or without EU approval).


It won't happen. We'll keep giving free money, cigarettes, phone top-ups and apartments to them. :nuts:


----------



## Eulanthe

While we're on the subject of EU border security, is there any news about Cyprus joining Schengen? Romania and Bulgaria is an old story, but Cyprus seems to have been forgotten about.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Border crossing Nakovo(SRB)-Lunga(RO) was opened today. Two more crossings between Serbia and Romania will be opened in November.



Boza KG said:


> *Nakovo - Lunga, 08. novembar 2014. godine *


----------



## alserrod

There are two signs for cars on Romanian booths. One of them is for all passports, but I cannot read the full text of the other one. What does it say?


----------



## Alex_ZR

alserrod said:


> There are two signs for cars on Romanian booths. One of them is for all passports, but I cannot read the full text of the other one. What does it say?


CD, EU, EEA, CH. Like at any other EU border crossing.


----------



## Christophorus

so these new crossings can be used with any passport? Not like i.e. Bački Vinogradi where only EU and serbian citizens can pass?


----------



## Eulanthe

Christophorus said:


> so these new crossings can be used with any passport? Not like i.e. Bački Vinogradi where only EU and serbian citizens can pass?


Could be misleading and mean "EU/EEA/CH/SRB" only, it doesn't look equipped to handle all international traffic. All passports in this case means "all citizens permitted to pass through". Interesting that CD is marked though, it's been a dying trend on new border crossings. Those Romanian signs are strange for another reason, as they don't meet the Schengen border crossings standards. More to the point, why are we still opening up double controls when the trend has been for joint controls, especially on smaller border crossings? Oh, and why is it that PL can't open such simple small crossings and instead has to build massive overbuilt structures for essentially local traffic?


----------



## Alex_ZR

"All passports" means Serbian passports, and if there is a long queue at EU/EEA/CH gate, they can also use this one.


----------



## Chris_533976

This one might interest some people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uGPO85ejGo

Dashcam of 3 or 4 border crossings between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland in a five minute video. The border does odd things along parts of it, bits of one road are in different countries.

The vid is taken roughly here.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@54.0969372,-6.3641157,17z?hl=en


----------



## aubergine72

Alex_ZR said:


> CD, EU, EEA, CH. Like at any other EU border crossing.


What's CD?


Eulanthe said:


> Could be misleading and mean "EU/EEA/CH/SRB" only, it doesn't look equipped to handle all international traffic. All passports in this case means "all citizens permitted to pass through". Interesting that CD is marked though, it's been a dying trend on new border crossings. Those Romanian signs are strange for another reason, as they don't meet the Schengen border crossings standards. *More to the point, why are we still opening up double controls when the trend has been for joint controls, especially on smaller border crossings?* Oh, and why is it that PL can't open such simple small crossings and instead has to build massive overbuilt structures for essentially local traffic?


Are there any joint controls between EU/non-EU countries in this region?


----------



## Alex_ZR

aubergine72 said:


> What's CD?


_Corps diplomatique_ in French or diplomatic corps in English.



> Are there any joint controls between EU/non-EU countries in this region?


See post #11562.


----------



## Singidunum

Eulanthe said:


> Could be misleading and mean "EU/EEA/CH/SRB" only, it doesn't look equipped to handle all international traffic.


Probably 99% of people crossing there will be locals so I am sure that it can handle a random Asian that will appear once a year.



Christophorus said:


> so these new crossings can be used with any passport? Not like i.e. Bački Vinogradi where only EU and serbian citizens can pass?


It's up to the agreement of the sides, but I think crossings with Romania including this one are open to all. The limitation for this one is that it works only 7-19 and is for cars only.


----------



## cinxxx

^^Serbian time. 8-20 Romanian time


----------



## nenea_hartia

Could have been so hard for the Romanian and Serbian land surveyors and officials to come up with the same level of tarmac on both sides of that road? icard:
Anyway, thank you so much for the pics! Opening new border crossings to ease people's lives is always refreshing.



Boza KG said:


> *Nakovo - Lunga, 08. novembar 2014. godine *


----------



## alserrod

Changing to another continent.... why don't Argentina and Uruguay share any international brigde?


----------



## AsHalt

Speaking of changing continents, what do you guys think of an EU arrangement for ASEAN nations (aka South East Asia) in the near future (around 2030?)


----------



## Escher

alserrod said:


> Changing to another continent.... why don't Argentina and Uruguay share any international brigde?


Yes, they do!! My pics taken in 2005 on the bridge between Fray Bentos (ROU) and Gualeguaychu (RA). I think there are two more bridge crossings.


----------



## Singidunum

nenea_hartia said:


> Could have been so hard for the Romanian and Serbian land surveyors and officials to come up with the same level of tarmac on both sides of that road? icard:
> Anyway, thank you so much for the pics! Opening new border crossings to ease people's lives is always refreshing.


They decided the whole thing 10 days ago (Serbian PM boasted about that at the opening ceremony how he is so proud of that) at a meeting where Romanian PM probably told his Serbian colleague "listen I've got this election coming up and I am not doing so well in the Timis County so can we please do this thing" :lol:


----------



## los77

*Former border crossing Budzisko [PL] - Kalvarija [LT] part.1/3​**Date of photo : 2014 11 08​*
December 21, 2007. Under the Schengen Agreement crossing was closed.


01. We go from Polish to Lithuania









02. 









03. 









04. 









05. Gantries practically on the border states









06. 









07. 30 km / h actually needed, heavily corrugated road









08. What's with the white mark?









09. 









10. painting of lanes :nuts:










to be continued


----------



## los77

*Former border crossing Budzisko [PL] - Kalvarija [LT] part.2/3​**Date of photo : 2014 11 08​*

11. 









12. and lack of road paint









13. 









14. 









15. 









16. The first petrol station on the Lithuanian side









17. 









18. Changing the direction of travel. We're going Lithuanian Polish toward









19. 









20. 









to be continued


----------



## PovilD

Kalvarija *[LT]*  LV stands for Latvia.


----------



## los77

*Former border crossing Budzisko [PL] - Kalvarija [LT] part.3/3​**Date of photo : 2014 11 08​*

21. 









22. 









23. 









24. 









25. 









26. 









27. Border States









28. 









29. 









30. 









31. 









32. 









33. 









the end :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Those light poles on the Lithuanian side date back to USSR times from the looks of it.


----------



## Singidunum

Why is the border infrastructure kept if it's not maintained nor another use was found? To have these decaying structures and quite often some slow-down of traffic makes no sense.


----------



## Verso

I don't like unnecessary slowing-down of traffic, but I actually like some border infrastructure. For example, going from the Slovenian A5 to the Hungarian M70 is smooth (110 km/h), but there's also a rest area on the Slovenian side.


----------



## El Tiburon

Alex_ZR said:


> Border crossing Nakovo(SRB)-Lunga(RO) was opened today. Two more crossings between Serbia and Romania will be opened in November.


How was this border crossing in the times of Ceaucescu in Romania and Tito in Yugoslavia?


----------



## stickedy

El Tiburon said:


> How was this border crossing in the times of Ceaucescu in Romania and Tito in Yugoslavia?


Not existent?


----------



## Alex_ZR

El Tiburon said:


> How was this border crossing in the times of Ceaucescu in Romania and Tito in Yugoslavia?


It worked normally until 2004 when it was closed and opened few times a year.


These signs are obviously from the 1970s (photo taken in 2010)


----------



## Singidunum

It closed after Romania overzealously introduced visas for Serbian citizens and Serbia reciprocated so there were no people crossing the border. The fact that visas were abolished about 5 years ago shows how long it can take for bureaucracy to notice and fix these things.


----------



## volodaaaa

Alex_ZR said:


> It worked normally until 2004 when it was closed and opened few times a year.
> 
> 
> These signs are obviously from the 1970s (photo taken in 2010)


Frontier? Should not it be State border? 

AFAIK border is something visible, boundary is something invisible (except on map) and frontier is "buffer area" along border/boundary (frontier districts = districts that share any section of boundary with state border). But I might be mistaken.


----------



## Singidunum

Probably just faux amis with French.


----------



## Penn's Woods

volodaaaa said:


> Frontier? Should not it be State border?
> 
> AFAIK border is something visible, boundary is something invisible (except on map) and frontier is "buffer area" along border/boundary (frontier districts = districts that share any section of boundary with state border). But I might be mistaken.


Have to think about that one....

I'm not sure the differences between those words are all that precise in practice. That said, "state" seems odd to me and I don't see the need for the "the." If that sign's supposed to be marking the actual line, "national border" or "Serbian border" or whatever would seem natural; if they're warning you that customs is coming up, say "border crossing" or "customs"....


----------



## volodaaaa

French influence is really felt in ex-Yugoslavia (especially those Carina/Douane signs). Perhaps it was Frenglish


----------



## Singidunum

Penn's Woods said:


> Have to think about that one....
> 
> I'm not sure the differences between those words are all that precise in practice. That said, "state" seems odd to me and I don't see the need for the "the." If that sign's supposed to be marking the actual line, "national border" or "Serbian border" or whatever would seem natural; if they're warning you that customs is coming up, say "border crossing" or "customs"....


In Serbian it indeed says "border crossing". The Russian version also says the same and German version I think just "border".


----------



## parcdesprinces

Penn's Woods said:


> and I don't see the need for the "the.".


The same in the French text regarding the "La" before _Frontière_ (just like for example we write "Douane" and not "La Douane" on such signs in French)


----------



## Singidunum

Well that's a sign from the 1970s, probably long removed by now

It says just douane these days


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ They kept _French _and threw away their own language on the sign? LMAO!



Penn's Woods said:


> Have to think about that one....
> 
> I'm not sure the differences between those words are all that precise in practice. That said,* "state" seems odd to me* and I don't see the need for the "the." If that sign's supposed to be marking the actual line, "national border" or "Serbian border" or whatever would seem natural; if they're warning you that customs is coming up, say "border crossing" or "customs"....


I agree, but at the same time, for me it seems weird to just see _Grenze _instead of _Staatsgrenze_, I don't know why...


----------



## eindhoven the best

*Border between The Netherlands (left) / Belgium (Right) at Kanne.*


----------



## Palance

This is not the border! The border is north of Kanne and is not a 'wet' border. This bridge is totally in Belgium, some kilometers from the NL-BE border.

The real border is here:


----------



## Kanadzie

It would have been cheaper for Belgium to just give to NL those 10 metres of land and save the money of the bridge :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I wonder if that's the only suspension bridge in Belgium.


----------



## eindhoven the best

Palance said:


> This is not the border! The border is north of Kanne and is not a 'wet' border. This bridge is totally in Belgium, some kilometers from the NL-BE border.
> 
> The real border is here:


Picture is made here. 10 feet to the left lies The Netherlands.

https://www.google.nl/maps/@50.8196739,5.6552555,16z


----------



## Road_UK

That bit of Belgium between river and border might as well be a part of the Netherlands. The locals get the same local papers through the mail box, read the same classifieds, speak with the same accent and are virtually the same. The only difference?

It's still Belgium, so the roads suck.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^You're having quite a day! ;-)


----------



## BL2

Road_UK said:


> Would you like to go back to the situation in your country in the 90's? Talking about backward...


I had first hand experience so I can clearly now see how nationalism, racism, claustrophobia and chauvinism is now rising in Europe and it is supported by some here as well.


----------



## Road_UK

All that is happening in your part of the world in a very violent way my friend. In this part we only discuss it, have a good old chin-wag about it, and when it is time to go to the polls we can establish that the common sense prevails again.


----------



## BL2

It happened in "your" part of the world not so long time ago and it is happening all around the world thanks to "your" part of the world, so stop with that ignorant and childish condensing attitude. If you are representative of that common sense then there is nothing commonsensical in it. 
The point is that chauvinists and nationalist are gaining more and more space in Europe (this forum proves that as well) and their/your retrograde policy is becoming main stream, what is to be expected in periods of financial crisis, but still that policy and all of it's followers belong to junkyard of history


----------



## Penn's Woods

Anyone seen any nice borders lately?


----------



## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> Anyone seen any nice borders lately?


Crossed one this morning. Following the river Inn from Austria into Germany, the Inn valley is mostly Austrian and the last 25 km are German until the Alps comes to a close and you can either head towards Salzburg or Munich. Lovely part of the world, but sadly riddled by racists, nationalists, chauvinists etc. According to BL2 anyway.


----------



## BL2

for Europe with(out) borders.

Ultimate border


----------



## Penn's Woods

Think I'll go back to watching the Eagles lose....

EDIT: 53-13?!?! I guess I won't.


----------



## Road_UK

I think I'm going to sleep. Just got back from he pub. Nite....


----------



## hofburg

del, wrong thread


----------



## Eulanthe

BL2 said:


> I had first hand experience so I can clearly now see how nationalism, racism, claustrophobia and chauvinism is now rising in Europe and it is supported by some here as well.


Not really. Even in Poland, the nationalists won barely 1.5% in the local elections yesterday. As for border crossings, I want a Europe without borders too. But countries have to sort themselves out, and that includes securing the external border properly against illegal immigration. I don't see a future for Schengen if Europe continues to get richer and richer while Africa rots - and without an incredibly tough external border, Europe will become under sustained and repeated assault by these illegals.


----------



## BL2

Poland is another story, I am talking about some other European countries Poland is sort of exception, because you understand how integration can play out well for country, while some fail to see it. I have first hand experience from Austria, the country which profited maybe the most from EU integration and Schengen and you can hear/read only about the bad sides of EU.
Waiting for countries to sort themselves out means it will never happen. According to majority from western Europe Poland wasn't ready neither for EU nor Schengen, however you were pushed in, if we have waited for Poland to "sort out" it would still be isolated post-communist country.


----------



## javimix19

What is the busiest cross of Europe?

Well, I supose that it is in EU, and perhaps between France and Germany or between Benelux and Germany I don't know.


----------



## Road_UK

I'm not really sure. There are several. Some of them I find really busy are for example:

A16/E19 Breda-Antwerp
A12/A3 Arnhem-Oberhausen
A8/A1 Munich-Salzburg
A93/A12 Rosenheim-Innsbruck
A12/A22 Brenner


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Over what?

Since when do you warn people in advance?


----------



## volodaaaa

Since then he has been desiring to become a mod


----------



## Road_UK

I just know. It's always my fault. And soon BL2 will come and give me a hard time again, and it will always be my fault.


----------



## aubergine72

MichiH said:


> ^^ 1 Mark is always 100 Fenings.


I thought this was a mock on the wrong pronunciation of pfennig but I see this is how it's called in Bosnia.


----------



## volodaaaa

Iron Curtain Czechoslovakia-Austria (circa 1960)









Today
https://www.google.sk/maps/@48.1757...m4!1e1!3m2!1skpDRIl03WasU9vYarR04GQ!2e0?hl=sk


----------



## Eulanthe

volodaaaa said:


> x-type's case is something different. But why don't use credit card otherwise?


It depends, because for instance, I can exchange from Zloty into Euro and lose a really minimal amount of cash. The exchange offices in Poland offer ridiculously good deals - and you can usually change from EUR into local currency in the Balkans without losing much. Using a credit/debit card on the other hand can be problematic - my bank (ING) will convert BAM to EUR and then into PLN - so you have massive losses there. As for using Euro in the Balkans, I've found that accommodation providers have no issue with taking EUR over local currencies, usually at a rate very close to the interbank rate. Speaking of which - has anyone noticed how currency exchange offices seem to be invisible on Balkan borders?


----------



## bogdymol

Back to border crossings...


----------



## Verso

http://goo.gl/maps/8wSLI

Slovenian police securing free passage between Slovenia and a part of Croatia annexed by Slovenia. :troll:


----------



## Road_UK

I'm looking at the map of that area. Somebody was obviously very drunk when that frontier was designed...


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> I'm looking at the map of that area. Somebody was obviously very drunk when that frontier was designed...


Bitch please :troll:


















In the case of the SLO-HR border, it looks like that Mura river changed its route while the border remained the same.


----------



## Eulanthe

Road_UK said:


> I'm looking at the map of that area. Somebody was obviously very drunk when that frontier was designed...


The problem with the Yugoslav republic borders were that they really were poorly made in some cases. They weren't of any particular importance, so I don't think anyone bothered to sit down and say "well, this line is an absurdity" because it didn't really matter at all. Of course, the sensible thing now would be to conduct some land swaps and get it straightened out, but relations in this area between Slovenia and Croatia seem to be pretty cool. I guess with Croatia's entry to the EU, it ceases to be of any real significance.


----------



## alserrod

In the India-Bangladesh case, once I watcthed a picture where there were a double enclave (a little square over another country but inside that square, another one of the own country but needed to cross over).

Absolutely crazy... but they were just countrylands


----------



## Road_UK

italystf said:


> Bitch please :troll:


I still have no idea what went wrong there...


----------



## Aokromes

Netherlands inside Belgium inside Netherlands?


----------



## Road_UK

Aokromes said:


> Netherlands inside Belgium inside Netherlands?


Something like that. Little Belgian enclaves within Dutch territory.


----------



## Alex_ZR

alserrod said:


> In the India-Bangladesh case, once I watcthed a picture where there were a double enclave (a little square over another country but inside that square, another one of the own country but needed to cross over).
> 
> Absolutely crazy... but they were just countrylands


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahala_Khagrabari


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> In the case of the SLO-HR border, it looks like that Mura river changed its route while the border remained the same.


That's right.



Eulanthe said:


> The problem with the Yugoslav republic borders were that they really were poorly made in some cases.


What do you mean "poorly made"? Most of the SLO-HR border is centuries-old.

PS: no one seems to care about this border either. :shifty:


----------



## Road_UK

I care :cheers:


----------



## Verso

Road_UK said:


> I care :cheers:


You're the last one that would respect rules.  There's no sign for Croatia, I bet you'd just walk freely over that bridge to the backyard of what looks like an illegal Slovenian company in Croatia. :troll:


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> You're the last one that would respect rules.  There's no sign for Croatia, I bet you'd just walk freely over that bridge to the backyard of what looks like an illegal Slovenian company in Croatia. :troll:


It looks like a factory backyard, where probably only workers can enter. Maybe they have some autorization to cross the border there. Could that Slovenian company have been built deliberately on Croatian soil for some fiscal advantage?


----------



## Penn's Woods

AM or PM?


----------



## Road_UK

AM. Otherwise it'd say 18:00


----------



## Eulanthe

WB2010 said:


> What a great example of the famous German precision: "Here Germany and Europe were divided until the 18th November 1989 at 6 o'clock" :lol:


I think it's because a lot of border crossings opened with ceremony, and don't forget, border controls were still very much in operation at that point. Incidentally, everyone talks about the Iron Curtain, but from what I understand, internal 'socialist' frontiers were also quite tough to cross at times. Poland and the Soviet Union certainly had barbed wire fences and a healthy dose of Soviet paranoia.


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> AM or PM?





Road_UK said:


> AM. Otherwise it'd say 18:00


off-topic...


AM = Ante Meridiem (Before "south" in Latin)
PM = Post Meridiem (Post "south" in Latin)

Meridiem (south) in this case could be considered as "noon" because it is the moment where the sun (in the North hemisphere) is highly located.

In several languages and also in several countries they use to point AM or PM, or they use to have a 24h formats (or something in the middle... for instance I will never say AM o PM but all pannels will be written either in 24h format, either in somehow not to have a mistake)

And... by the way, a long time ago when computers where starting in production systems my father told me he knew about a case that some 24/7 operators had to switch off computer system at "8:00 PM" before New Year Eve and the switched off at..... "8:00 *P*or la *M*añana" (8:00 in the morning). Thus 12 hours without any data and a long time working to repair all computering problems.

After that they gave instructions to write ALL in 24h format!!!!!!!!


:bash::bash:


----------



## alserrod

In other messages I've written about "Espace Pourtalet / Espacio Portalet", a binational area for winter maintenance in the Pourtalet Mountain Pass as well as prepare former booths for exhibitions and other activities.


Today I've seen this picture in the news










A machine doesn't fit in the garage!!!



I've surfed on threads and found this picture before works started










http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1134775&page=17

more or less here

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.8058...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1srGg9XbheDmrhK8qh-5XjEA!2e0


----------



## fatty1

Does anybody have border crossing photos of neutral Switzerland during World War 1 and World War 2? I wonder how the Swiss borders looked like back then.


----------



## Fatfield

Eulanthe said:


> I think it's because a lot of border crossings opened with ceremony, and don't forget, border controls were still very much in operation at that point. Incidentally, everyone talks about the Iron Curtain, but from what I understand, internal 'socialist' frontiers were also quite tough to cross at times. Poland and the Soviet Union certainly had barbed wire fences and a healthy dose of Soviet paranoia.


From what I vaguely remember about the Hungary-Romania border in the mid 80's, it had plenty of barbed wire fencing and at least a mile of open space either side. The Romanian checkpoint was a wooden hut. Needless to say we weren't allowed to take pictures then. I have no idea where the crossing point was but it was either near Oradea or Arad.

The Hungary-Austria border checkpoint was more akin to a Germany-Holland or France-Belgium checkpoint at the time.


----------



## Palance

A very remote Balkan border crossing.

The R21 in Montenegro from Šula to the BIH-border. The crossing is visible from 11:35 till end of video.





The Bosnian M8 right after the Montenegrin border post in direction Foča. The BiH border post (Vikoč) is visible from 2:10, and seems to be abandoned.


----------



## cinxxx

^^This video is not available


----------



## nestvaran

Palance said:


>


Where the heck have you been driving :nuts::nuts: Why didn't you cross the border at Šćepan Polje?


----------



## Road_UK

It is available here. Are you currently on enemy territory?


----------



## cinxxx

^^Looks like German censor


----------



## MichiH

cinxxx said:


> ^^Looks like German censor


Correct  .


----------



## Penn's Woods

"German censor"??


----------



## MichiH

^^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blocking_of_YouTube_videos_in_Germany


----------



## ChrisZwolle

_A common way of viewing blocked videos in Germany is to use browser add-ons that fake a foreign IP address, which are available for all common browsers and Spotify, in some cases these add-ons even come prebundled with the browser setup._

I suppose most Germans use this? Youtube is kind of useless if 61.5% of the most popular videos are blocked.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> _A common way of viewing blocked videos in Germany is to use browser add-ons that fake a foreign IP address, which are available for all common browsers and Spotify, in some cases these add-ons even come prebundled with the browser setup._
> 
> I suppose most Germans use this? Youtube is kind of useless if 61.5% of the most popular videos are blocked.


I didn't know that. With this block, plus the anti-Street View cruisade, Germany has definitively the most backward internet legislation in EU.hno:


----------



## Road_UK

Germany has at least some streetview, whereas Austria has none. But Austria didn't block this video.


----------



## italystf

Road_UK said:


> Germany has at least some streetview, whereas Austria has none. But Austria didn't block this video.


Isn't Austria in the street-view-planned-coverage list?
In the past Vienna was visible on Norc street view, but the service has caesed.


----------



## aubergine72

^^

Austria should be reassured that no basements will be included in Street View.


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Tijuana (Left) - San Diego (Right)*

Zona Norte y Garita Internacional by WalterWalle, on Flickr


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Mexico and USA*


The Border (MEX-USA) by sam.fernandez1972, on Flickr


DSC00625 by memory almost full, on Flickr


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Aditional pics of the border*


DSC00633 by memory almost full, on Flickr

"La frontera que intenta dividir al mar. Frontera TIJUANA-SAN DIEGO" Foto:El Lemus by El Lemus, on Flickr


----------



## Palance

nestvaran said:


> Where the heck have you been driving :nuts::nuts: Why didn't you cross the border at Šćepan Polje?


It's not my video


----------



## Corvinus

West Berlin - GDR border from Feb. 1990 (with GDR still an independent state), taken from this  youtube video.
Border location is in the south of Berlin, the road is B96a.

1. Right in front of the actual border line, with a gate and the Wall visible in the background. The viewer is standing on a viewing platform, which were common in West Berlin back then.











2. Looking into the GDR from the platform. Border facilities are not visible from this distance (at least not in the video still).











3. On the left side of the road, the classical "You are leaving the American sector" sign. And a decent-looking house right in front of the wall (what a nice view from its upper storey into the GDR's _Todeszone_!).











4. Another view standing on the road, viewing platform at right











5. The border facilities, I guess some 500 mts into GDR territory. In 1990, not only were East Germans allowed to cross into the West, also travel formalities of West Berliners and West Germans into the GDR were further simplified.


----------



## GROBIN

Former border crossing Ogrodniki (PL) / Lazdijai (LT) [or more precisely Hołny Mejera (PL) - Akmėnai (LT)]
I made this pic last year, but nothing has changed since then. It has changed in 2012 though. A 2,2km bike path has been made on the Polish side & Warsaw has been added on the first distance sign in the Polish territory.

See on the right side the characteristic "Rzeczpospolita Polska - Granica Państwa" roadsign and on the left this enormous stone with "Lietuvos Respublika"

Don't forget to switch your clocks when crossing the Polish / Lithuanian border!  It's very easy to forget that when crossing it at 70km/h which is the speed limit on the first 2 km on each side in this place  Same as between Spain & Portugal


----------



## GROBIN

This pic has been taken at the beginning of my 2012 trip by bike from Poland to Croatia, between Chochołów (PL) and Suchá Hora (SK). Note that the first roadsign in Slovakia looks as if "SLOVENSKÁ REPUBLIKA" were a built-up area and not a country :lol: I would think the speed limit is 50km/h if I wouldn't know what "SLOVENSKÁ REPUBLIKA" means !


----------



## GROBIN

This one ... well, I don't know if we can still talk about a border crossing :lol: You can see Pickuny (Піцкуны) (BY) from Norviliškės (LT).









N.B.: If you come to Lithuania by car, it's a characteristic place with a castle, a wooden Zakopane-style church and ... a Polish cemetery just at the border with Belarus! At some occasions, the inhabitants of the Belarusian side assist to the messes that are given from the Lithuanian side !
I believe the priests sleep over here


----------



## Alex_ZR

^^ Everything at that spot was Poland until September 1939:

http://i.imgur.com/AnWfP.png

Even Vilnius, Lithuanian capital today, was Polish and known as Wilno.


----------



## GROBIN

Alex_ZR said:


> ^^ Everything at that spot was Poland until September 1939:
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/AnWfP.png
> 
> Even Vilnius, Lithuanian capital today, was Polish and known as Wilno.


In order to reply to you, Alex_ZR, I'll have to be a bit off-topic  Sorry for the others.
Actually you're right. When looking at the pre-war statistics I discovered Lithuanians in Wilno (now Vilnius) were around 1% and only one church in the city gave messes in Lithuanian. There were a couple of times more Jews and there were more Belarusians at that time. Even in Kaunas - the pre-war Lithuanian capital - you had around 40% of Poles. I don't know why some people strongly deny that here. It is as if Poles denied pre-war Breslau (now Wrocław) was German ... 
Instead of denying such facts, Lithuanians should highlight them! It makes this region far more interesting for tourists, wherever they are from and the Lithuanian Republic is the one that shall gain! 
I cannot understand - for instance - that when going to the Medininkai castle, Poles are barely mentioned in the expo (Belarusians - not at all).
Additionally, how do you want to attract tourists to such remote locations if everything is only in English & Lithuanian (no Russian, no Belarusian, no Polish)? Especially that these are lands that changed their owners a couple of times, which makes their touristic potential much higher!
Fortunately, the young generation (at least those with whom I work, which are educated people) has got a completely different approach of such matters. More European, less nationalistic.

Nowadays - if I remember well - in the Vilnius region there are around 60% of Poles (around 20% in Vilnius). ... And apparently in Norviliškės messes are given in Polish. Unfortunately, I didn't have the chance to see one "live". However, in Senieji Trakai, Medininkai and Eišiškės I had the occasion to enter churches during messes (which were all in Polish - with the Vilnius accent :lol

*Back on topic * 
Yesterday, btw, I went to Medininkai. There was an enormous queue of trucks, but ... maybe 2 cars waiting to enter Belarus ...
This week I had a very interesting conversation with a colleague from Marijampolė. He told me that before moving to Vilnius, he went very often to buy food in Suwałki. Not because of the prices, but because everything tastes different over there. He told me Poles do the same on the other way round  Same echo between Sejny and Lazdijai  after talking with local people.


----------



## Eulanthe

Corvinus said:


> 5. The border facilities, I guess some 500 mts into GDR territory. In 1990, not only were East Germans allowed to cross into the West, also travel formalities of West Berliners and West Germans into the GDR were further simplified.


If I recall correctly, travel formalities were eased for West Germans and West Berliners just before Christmas in 1989. One thing I've never quite found out is whether or not West Germany guarded all border crossings with East Germany after endless new crossings opened up, or whether they just operated West Berlin style random checks. As for Lithuania above - isn't a permit required to visit the border zone?


----------



## Ingenioren

Meanwhile on the Se/Fi border, worlds first international highrise building just started construction. You will be able to cross the border at the 20th floor in the Quality Hotel Barents.









Borderline runs in the centre of the canal.


----------



## Road_UK

The bar will be on the Finnish side?


----------



## NordikNerd

Ingenioren said:


> Meanwhile on the Se/Fi border, worlds first international highrise building just started construction. You will be able to cross the border at the 20th floor in the Quality Hotel Barents.
> Borderline runs in the centre of the canal.


Haparanda is a small town profiting very well on its location on the border. 
Haparanda with a population of only 4 856 inhabitants has a wide range of shops and hotels for its small size.


----------



## MattiG

Ingenioren said:


> Meanwhile on the Se/Fi border, worlds first international highrise building just started construction. You will be able to cross the border at the 20th floor in the Quality Hotel Barents.


A lot of interesting legal issues are in the pipeline, I think.

The shared bus terminus was opened about earlier this year. The corner closest to the border lies about 20 meters from the border, in Sweden. The Finnish bus cargo company Matkahuolto faced VAT-related issues, and had to register a subsidiary in Sweden. 

The other way round, the Finnish bus trips originating or terminating at the Swedish side, are international traffic, and therefore free of VAT. The length of the route in Sweden is about 60 meters, but that guarantees the VAT-free status to the whole trip, regardless its length.

Drawbacks exist, too. It is illegal for dogs to cross the border without a certificate about worm treatment. And soldiers are not allowed to cross the border in uniforms. Dogs and soldiers must leave the bus at the last stop in Finland.


----------



## GROBIN

MattiG said:


> (...)
> 
> Drawbacks exist, too. It is illegal for dogs to cross the border without a certificate about worm treatment. And soldiers are not allowed to cross the border in uniforms. Dogs and soldiers must leave the bus at the last stop in Finland.


Good one ! :lol: So many decades these countries have got very good relations and they're still afraid of each other's dogs & soldiers :nuts: Sounds really surrealistic!

Back to border crossings. As I do not necessarily have pics of these (left them on my former computer in France), I'll show you on Google Street View:
1) Medininkai (LT) - Kamienny Łoh (Каменны Лог) (BY) - but not on the A3 / M7 (E28) road  When I went there, last year, I thought "hmmm ... what about if someone crosses this border driving 200km/h ?
2) Ureliai (LT) - Hraŭžyški (Граўжышкі) (BY), very close to the one between Norviliškės and Pickuny. I wonder whether it works or not.
3) Actually, this is a river border crossing. Between Piedruja (LV) and Druja (Друя) (BY). Interestingly, I found out quite recently that before WWII, it was the border between Latvia and ... Poland. Perhaps this explains the presence of a Polish population on the Latvian side ? (Daugavpils)
4) Adutiškis (LT) - Kruki (Крукі) (BY). I'm not sure I saw it on this forum. This is a very strange place, where the Haduciški (Гадуцішкі) train station (formerly Adutiškis) is on the Belarusian side due to a territorial dispute between both countries after the independence from the USSR. AFAIK, the station is now closed.
5) Vištytis (LT) - Maloje Bieloziernoje (Малое Белозерное) (RUS). Interesting when you look towards the border and when you turn back 
6) Szczurkowo (PL) - Poddubnoje (Поддубное) (RUS) - no road leading to the border, but you can see it for a couple of km from the Polish side.
7) This is really a place where you don't feel you're crossing a border - it's between Linhartovy (CZ) and Lenarcice (PL) on the Opavice / Opawica river. On the Czech side - a castle. On the Polish side, a football pitch. I've been there 3 years ago and I only noticed I was in Poland because of the green roadsigns on the Polish side, after around 800m. There's no "Rzeczpospolita Polska" sign. 
8) Velké Kunětice (CZ) - Sławniowice (PL) - I was quite confused when driving here.


----------



## MattiG

GROBIN said:


> Good one ! :lol: So many decades these countries have got very good relations and they're still afraid of each other's dogs & soldiers :nuts: Sounds really surrealistic!


The regulations related to importing dogs to Finland are in place to protect the country from Echinococcus multilocularis. They have been in effect since 2012 after Sweden got contaminated.

I think it is a universal practice that soldiers in uniforms do not cross the borders unless specially agreed. In this case, this practice is somewhat an exaggeration.


----------



## Suburbanist

All over Europe, there are these protocols for military travel. Soldiers don't go to other countries with their uniforms as they please, only if on some mission or organized formal travel.

Same goes for other law enforcement uniforms.


----------



## Road_UK

Where TF did you get that info? There's military uniform travel beween Germany and UK/Belgium/France/Holland on public transportation all the time. I know because I used to be one of them.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Maybe that comes under MattiG's "unless specially agreed"?


----------



## Verso

Road_UK said:


> Just to let you know that one thread got locked already because of all this Slavic language bullshit. Just sayin....


Albanian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Hungarian, Romanian, German, Chinese, Japanese, and Korean are Slavic languages? :troll:


----------



## Road_UK

Well, they're certainly not border crossings. I have made a Merry Christmas on the road thread which got merged into the RRA thread, and here they're still rambling on about friggin languages... 

You get my point?


----------



## Verso

Yes, it's annoying.


----------



## GROBIN

stickedy said:


> Yes! There are some great street names in Tirana you have to think about before understanding  Bulevardi Zhan D'Ark


Actually historical names are commonly transliterated. Sometimes only in street names, but sometimes they remain in the common language.
ex.: Kopernik becomes Copernic or Copernicus, Jeanne d'Arc becomes Joanna d'Arc, etc. But Lithuanian and Latvian transliterate even modern-times names.

End of OT or Road_Uk will take his van and kill us all :lol:


----------



## Road_UK

That's right. I'm going to run you all over...


----------



## bigic

Is it a political campaign van?


----------



## Road_UK

No it's a freight van that crosses international borders daily. It can also run over people who yap about languages all day long.


----------



## GROBIN

Road_UK said:


> No it's a freight van that crosses international borders daily. It can also run over people who yap about languages all day long.


Then try the Lithuanian/Belarusian closed border crossing outside of the village of Medininkai ! 
If you cross it at 160km/h with your van - which I believe you can do starting your acceleration from the Medininkai castle - before any customs officers may react on any side of the border and talk to you in Lithuanian, Russian, Belarusian or English, you will have already destroyed the fence and arrived to the Belarusian city of Ašmjany (Ашмяны) :troll:


----------



## Verso

Border crossing Porta Sant'Anna between Italy and the Vatican City:









http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Vatican_City_-_main_entrance_with_Swiss_Guard.jpg









http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chiesa_di_Sant%27Anna_dei_Palafrenieri,_Citt%C3%A0_del_Vaticano_-_exterior.jpg


----------



## Eulanthe

Apparently you can access the Vatican City pharmacy with a valid prescription, but does anyone know the details?

I'm going again to Rome soon, and I'd quite like to visit a different part of the Vatican


----------



## alserrod

I do not know but please...spot a cash dispenser and share the picture here.

I've seen it and it may be the unique case with the machine where one of the languages offered to user is Latin.


----------



## italystf

Eulanthe said:


> Apparently you can access the Vatican City pharmacy with a valid prescription, but does anyone know the details?
> 
> I'm going again to Rome soon, and I'd quite like to visit a different part of the Vatican


People may get permissions to enter the pharmacy, the post office, the philatelic-numismatic office and the Sant'Anna church. I don't know details but I think that a valid medical prescription is a valid reason to be allowed into.
Yes, the only ATM in the world with istructions in Latin is in Vatican City, that is the only jurisdiction of the world that has Latin as co-official language.


----------



## geogregor

Following on my pictures from Dover here are some from Holyhead - Dublin international crossing 

We are on board of MS Ulysses, the largest ferry in the Irish Ferries fleet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Ulysses









Leaving Holyhead 


















Stena following us:









Approaching Dublin:


----------



## geogregor

And docking at the terminal:


----------



## geogregor

Approaching Dublin Irish ferries terminal on the way back.
All the surroundings have vary industrial feel. It looks like Terminator stage set in places 































































This time we are boarding fast catamaran









On our way to Holyhead we can see MS Ulysses heading to Dublin.
Huge beast:









That's it.
In the summer I'm planning to take ferry from Cairnryan to Belfast so I'll try to take some pictures from that route too.


----------



## manhuelofspain

*USA- Mexico, Nogales border*


subir fotos


----------



## OulaL

Lots of railway tracks in Dublin port - nothing special about that, but they seem to run a long way along the street.

Are they used a lot? For what I remember from Helsinki (somewhat comparable to Dublin), not so long ago (before the completion of Vuosaari port) a train merely crossing the street on its way to the port caused big problems to the traffic in that part of the city centre.


----------



## Road_UK

Strange North Korean army manoeuvre on the DMZ as observed by American tourists, South Korean security and US army right on the border.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

The number of trucks on Batrovci border crossings in Serbia (A3) is huge.The crowd is enormous


----------



## Eulanthe

italystf said:


> People may get permissions to enter the pharmacy, the post office, the philatelic-numismatic office and the Sant'Anna church. I don't know details but I think that a valid medical prescription is a valid reason to be allowed into.
> Yes, the only ATM in the world with istructions in Latin is in Vatican City, that is the only jurisdiction of the world that has Latin as co-official language.


Thank you! I'll certainly try and get a photo and video of the ATM, I had one year of Latin, so maybe I can read something...!

Next question of the day : 

Does anyone know where the old border crossing at Lanzhot (CZ) / Brodske (SK) was? Not the D2 motorway crossing (the infrastructure is still mostly there...) but on the II/425 road? I was there in summer and couldn't find any evidence of a border crossing facility. Google Maps is showing absolutely nothing of any interest, and the only plausible place I've found is either side of the border bridge. Does anyone know?


----------



## CNGL

italystf said:


> Yes, the only ATM in the world with istructions in Latin is in Vatican City, that is the only jurisdiction of the world that has Latin as co-official language.


It is in Latin... and in Comic Sans :troll:









Taken from Fronteras blog (in Spanish).


----------



## Verso

Slovenia -> Hungary :troll:


----------



## aubergine72

^^

More like Slovenians can't into Hungary.


----------



## Verso

http://goo.gl/maps/7EjJ7

Slovenian signs on the Hungarian side of the road, Hungarian signs on the Slovenian side of the road. :hammer: That Hungarian sign in Slovenia is particularly interesting, because I don't even know what it means.  I guess "border control ahead", but that's been obsolete since 2007.


----------



## Eulanthe

It looks like a sign warning you that you might be stopped, but still - it's a very strange sign!

One thing I've never understood - why did they remove all the flags from border crossings? I always thought that the two national flags and the EU flag were a nice touch on many borders.


----------



## Eulanthe

https://www.google.si/maps/@46.9848...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sXzCXK9nDnK-dUdN9hZab_w!2e0 - here's a curious one. What's this "control" point for here? It seems to be active (the lights are on, the signage looks current).


----------



## haddockman

It is a weighbridge for commercial vehicles.


----------



## haddockman

OulaL said:


> Lots of railway tracks in Dublin port - nothing special about that, but they seem to run a long way along the street.
> 
> Are they used a lot? For what I remember from Helsinki (somewhat comparable to Dublin), not so long ago (before the completion of Vuosaari port) a train merely crossing the street on its way to the port caused big problems to the traffic in that part of the city centre.


Those tracks are part of the Alexandria Tramway. The only traffic it sees is the 3 daily Tara Mines ore trains from Navan, Co. Meath. The track is also used for taking delivery of new railway vehicles that arrive by ship.

And yes, each train causes a fair bit of disruption to road traffic.


----------



## los77

*Old border crossing ZWARDOŃ [PL] - SKALITE [SK]​*Date of recording : *2014 12 25*







In the film is the Polish expressway S69 - section Zwardoń - Milówka. :cheers:

Music is my friend *TASIOR2103* ( you can find it on Youtube)


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

Verso said:


> Slovenia -> Hungary :troll:


On one side you have bad road and on the other you have nothing 
Waste of money :nuts::nuts::nuts:


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## Verso

^ Why is the road on the Slovenian side bad? It's new and it's quite wide for a local road.


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## HRHB

Source: kleinezeitung.at


Border Spielfeld - Šentilj (A - SLO) on 28th december. It was closed from half past 1 until half past 3 I think. Neither driver that come from B67 Grazer Straße nor driver from R-437 Dunajska cesta were allowed to cross it. Some kind of protests about paying taxes in both countries as some Slovenians work in Austria. The border on the A1 highway was not affected.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

Verso said:


> ^ Why is the road on the Slovenian side bad? It's new and it's quite wide for a local road.


'Cause of dirt .
And from some reason i thought that this road is just going to sit there without finishing touches.


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## putzi__

Living in direct proximity to the NL-GER border I am crossing these borders (A37) quiet often. The Dutch government did start in I guess 2010 to build those camera bridges a few meters in the country on every major motorway. So far this is in accordance to the EU laws (they say). But frankly I am puzzled, every time I cross they take a picture of me – even if they claim to not save those photos…


Does anybody have any further info regarding this topic? Is such a system in place somewhere else in the EU?


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## Verso

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> 'Cause of dirt .


According to the Slovenian law you must clean your wheels before entering a paved road. Of course no one does it. That road is used only by the people dirtying it anyway.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

In Serbia too,but no one gives a shit about that.


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## Eulanthe

putzi__ said:


> Living in direct proximity to the NL-GER border I am crossing these borders (A37) quiet often. The Dutch government did start in I guess 2010 to build those camera bridges a few meters in the country on every major motorway. So far this is in accordance to the EU laws (they say). But frankly I am puzzled, every time I cross they take a picture of me – even if they claim to not save those photos…
> 
> 
> Does anybody have any further info regarding this topic? Is such a system in place somewhere else in the EU?


Finland does it routinely, as far as I know. I'm pretty certain (and it's confirmed by Street View) that all borders are monitored via camera, as well as other areas (such as the entrance/exit from the border zones). I think the French abandoned most controls on the Swiss border in exchange for cameras, and I've got a feeling that the Norwegian border is also controlled by camera. I would be hugely shocked if the UK wasn't monitoring every single port by camera, too. I suspect that every single external Schengen border crossing is equipped with cameras, too. Finally - it will be legal, as the Schengen Borders Code makes it clear that you must not be impeded when crossing the border, but it is silent on the issue of surveillance (as long as you don't have to slow down/stop for it).


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## Road_UK

I was wanting to ask about that: is the 60 km/h limit at the Salzburg-Walsenberg crossing illegal?


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## Eulanthe

Road_UK said:


> I was wanting to ask about that: is the 60 km/h limit at the Salzburg-Walsenberg crossing illegal?


According to the Schengen Borders Code, yes. There should be no artificial speed limits at borders, and it clearly states that obstructions to traffic should be removed quickly. It's what the EU used to force the French/Spanish to dismantle the old border crossing at La Jonquera, although they were clearly overdoing it with the 'random' checks there. But - if there's a vignette sales point there, and perhaps a Customs clearance station (there are a few 'internal' points in Austria, such as at Spielfeld) - then perhaps the 60km/h limit is justifiable.


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## alserrod

in the cases of Spain, France and someone more, those "vignettes" are toll booths. In all of them you are able to have an electronic payment system and cross them reducing to 40 but never stopping.
Therefore, it is nos possible to use them for random checks.


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## makaveli6

*Augstkalne [LV] - Žagare [LT]*

*1.* Approaching the border from Latvian side on the unpaved P95










*2.* The border signs










*3.*









*4.*


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## Suburbanist

Is Andorra-Spain cross-border traffic much more scrutinized than Andorra-France traffic?


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## alserrod

Yes it is. 

Just entering in Spain you have a main town with 12.500 and a tourist area (well... or a city 'cos La Seu d'Urgell has a cathedral. It is, indeed, the cathedral for Andorra).
Entering in France you are in the middle of nowhere in the Pyrenees.

Furthermore, the natural valley from Andorra goes south whilst mandatory to cross the highest mountain pass (either pass, either tolled tunnel) to go via France.


Before Euro I remember all prices in Pesetas in Andorra la vella even if you where entitled to pay in Francs too. 


I've glanced and... 14725 vehicles/day is the number of cars/trucks/anything that use the 10 km road La Seu-Border with Andorra
I do not know in France... but seems an important number

http://www.fomento.gob.es/NR/rdonly...14-AB4FCB3D351A/126295/MapaIntensidad2013.pdf


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## Penn's Woods

Suburbanist said:


> Is Andorra-Spain cross-border traffic much more scrutinized than Andorra-France traffic?





alserrod said:


> Yes it is.


Why is that?


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## alserrod

For instance, supossing you want to visit Andorra it would be easier to you to choose Barcelona airport rather than Toulouse airport. Both are in a similar distance but it takes faster from Barcelona by car and it has more flights.
If you require another airport, Madrid is quite nearer rather than Paris


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## Penn's Woods

^^More "scrutinized" means checked more carefully. I think Suburbanist is asking whether people crossing from Andorra into Spain - regardless of how many more of them there are - are more closely checked at the border than people crossing from Andorra into France.

And if that's what he's asking, and if that is indeed the case, I'm wondering why that is.

:cheers:


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## Eulanthe

Two reasons. 

One is that the Spanish take the external EU borders seriously - for all the complaining that Gibraltar has done, it's nothing compared to the systematic and comprehensive checks made on the Andorran border. The French on the other hand are notorious for not even bothering to stamp passports in CDG, they rarely bother to control the Monaco border, and they've even dismantled most of the border infrastructure on the Swiss border despite it still being a Customs border. 

Two, it's simply because of the tax differences. Spain cares much more than France about the revenue lost by smuggling. Theoretically, the French should also care, but they seem to be content with random checks. If you compare the infrastructure on the French and Spanish sides, you can see that the French have a completely different mentality.

As far as I see it, the Spanish are doing the right thing - it's an external EU and Schengen border, and should be treated as such. However, the Spanish identity controls are still severely lacking compared to the standards on the Eastern EU border.


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## Penn's Woods

Ah. I don't really think of Andorra as outside the E.U. I mean, I know it's not part of it, but it's surrounded by it....


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## Suburbanist

I crossed the border out of Andorra 6 times, 3 entering France, 3 entering Spain. That happened with Italian or Dutch plated cars.

The Spanish stopped me/us and checked documents, trunk, asked if we were carrying tobacco and alcohol, and in one occasion wanted to check our bags and were asking if we were bringing hunting equipment after seeing winter/mountain clothes and heavy boots we'd bought there.

The French just waved us through.


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## alserrod

OK, I get it. I really do not know.

But nowadays it is known that entering into Spain, police is more worried in money due to corruption rather than in goods.

If so, you are entitled to carry up to 9000 euro duty free. If you have one more euro you can be hardly punished and... police is taking these people. I do not know how... they can be experts in the border, just thinking who's on a fraud, maybe they are in the bank gates or so... because Andorra has a specific law for bank secret


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## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> The French just waved us through.



French make random checks. 
If you get anything for smuggling and enter into Spain you may drive 10 km after the border until first city and can leave goods there and return again. 
If you do the same operation into France... it is quite different.

Therefore, it worths to have a van and be the whole day smuggling into Spain but nothing so much into France.

So then, after French customs, if you haven't declared anything, you can be stopped by French police anywhere in the road randomly instead of stopping to all cars.


I guess that in Spanish customs they only asked you to open one baggage. It is the normal procedure.


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## Eulanthe

Penn's Woods said:


> Ah. I don't really think of Andorra as outside the E.U. I mean, I know it's not part of it, but it's surrounded by it....


Switzerland was in an identical situation until November 2008. To be honest, I'm really not sure why Andorra remains outside Schengen - there's no real reason for them to stay outside, especially as Schengen doesn't stop them imposing their own residency requirements and so on. 

As an aside, a good question is why Gibraltar remains outside Schengen.


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## bigic

Is it easier to smuggle from Andorra to Spain through France, as opposed to directly crossing the border? Or there is an impediment (in form of poor roads around Andorra etc.)?


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## Suburbanist

bigic said:


> Is it easier to smuggle from Andorra to Spain through France, as opposed to directly crossing the border? Or there is an impediment (in form of poor roads around Andorra etc.)?


Not really, you could easily cross Andorra => France => Spain. On the route to Barcelona that means a mere extra 15km in good roads.


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## italystf

makaveli6 said:


>


It's the first time that I see the dirt road symbol (with a specific speed limit) included in the general speed limit border sign.
Most European countries don't have a specific speed limit for dirt roads, as in most of Europe, with the notable exception of the Baltics, dirt roads are used only for agricultural purposes and to reach some isolated country houses, and not to link towns.


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## alserrod

Yes you can. Supossing your destination is Barcelona, from Ordino (and Pas de la casa of course) it will be faster via France than directly Spain.
By the way you will cross three tolled tunnels, one in each country (depending of Barcelona final destination they will be four indeed).

And there is no control from France to Spain.


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## MattiG

italystf said:


> Most European countries don't have a specific speed limit for dirt roads, as in most of Europe, with the notable exception of the Baltics, dirt roads are used only for agricultural purposes and to reach some isolated country houses, and not to link towns.


In Finland, quite a big fraction of the public lower-class roads are dirt roads. That seems to create some conceptual issues. For example, the TomTom devices rather often deliver ridiculous route proposals while trying to avoid those roads. The default driving speed on a gravel road according to TomTom is 10 km/h while the correct assumption in most cases could be 60-70 km/h. TomTom does not see this as bug but as a feature.


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## verreme

Crossing the Easternmost Spain-France border, in N-260/D914:






There are not many seaside border crossings over a mountain pass out there 

You can see an old border post at 0:59 and the derelict customs at 1:10.

The towns at either end of the border have two huge railway stations that allow both Iberian- and standard-gauge trains. Despite the main road border crossing having been N-II/N9 since Roman times, the 19th-century railway followed the coastal route.


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## alserrod

It is a mountain pass indeed!!!!. Pyrenees go coast-to-coast. Therefore, any pass over sides of rivers who go north or south (usually the border but not always) are mountain passes.

Obviously, a quite small one... but if you compare with its "pass siblings", they are similar.


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## Suburbanist

When have they built the route to France via the Viella tunnels?


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## verreme

Suburbanist said:


> When have they built the route to France via the Viella tunnels?


The first tube (Túnel Alfonso XIII) opened in 1948, the second one in 2007. Note that the newer tube (Túnel Juan Carlos I) is two-way, and the old one is an emergency tube that's also used by trucks carrying hazardous materials, which are forbidden on Juan Carlos I. I don't know when did they build N-230/N125 north of Viella.


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## OulaL

Eulanthe said:


> Finally - it will be legal, as the Schengen Borders Code makes it clear that you must not be impeded when crossing the border, but it is silent on the issue of surveillance (as long as you don't have to slow down/stop for it).


Well, you do have to slow down. There is a limit of 30 km/h on every Finnish Schengen crossing, accompanied with a notification of camera surveillance.

The public crossings, at least. Not sure about private ice roads.


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## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> When have they built the route to France via the Viella tunnels?


It wasn't a route to France indeed, just a tunnel to Aran valley (which its capital is Viella).

In 1920, king Alfonso XIII (great grandfather of current king Felipe VI) visited the valley and it was requested to him to build a tunnel because the valley was completely isolated with the rest of Spain.

As I said, you can point a line with north Pyrenees and south Pyrenees looking where rivers go. For instance, this geographic boundary in Andorra will be located in Envalira pass, where Pas de la Casa is northern Pyrenees and the rest of the country is southern Pyrenees. Between Spain and France the geographic boundary in the Pyrenees matches in a lot of cases with the real border but not always.

Works were halted because of Spanish war which finished in 1939, just half year before WWII started.

After Paris recovery by allied forces where some Spaniards were inside (those who emigrated after Spanish war to France and six months later another war started), these ones planned to attack Spain. I try to sum-up because.

It was in late October 1944, one year that "winter had started too soon". They hadn't good army but one of the boss was born in the valley and knew it quite well as well as they had the "surprise factor".

In October 1944 the only way to arrive Viella was from Barcelona via Bonaigua pass with a barely country path and totally covered of snow.

The civil guard asked for miltary aid to Barcelona but they took several days to arrive due to the snow. They were... 50.000 people against those 4.000 who had make the "invasion".

They advanced into Spain quite fast the first day but they had to stop because local police was located in good positions.

It is known that the fact that Bonaigua pass had so much snow was quite relevant. In one side army troops took a while to arrive but in other side, invasor troops wanted to arrive there. Maybe attacking from the mountains will isolate totally the valley.

It was a five days war only in that valley. It wasn't the unique but the biggest (we could chat a lot about it but it is more history rather than borders).

Spanish government decided to take again the tunnel project and it was opened three and a half years later. With it, Viella wasn't isolated but it was a strategic tunnel rather than for communications. They didn't do any business with France... and for those more than three years, I think that there was as many military people in the valley as population trying to avoid another attack.

The tunnel was opened to traffic and it operated for a long time.

It is quite curious because it was considered, in 2000, the most dangerous tunnel in Europe (new tunnel had the project in 1989 and works started after several changes in 2002) and... in so many years they had only two accidents.


Wikipedia entrance for this tunnel (in Spanish) talks quite well about safety problems 
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Túnel_de_Viella

But... the tunnel is not international, it just reach Viella. 
I guess that route to the border had existed always cos it is the natural way (going down into the valley).


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## Corvinus

OulaL said:


> Well, you do have to slow down. There is a limit of 30 km/h on every Finnish Schengen crossing, accompanied with a notification of camera surveillance.


Do authorities give a reason for this? 
(not that I wanted to condemn Finland for surveilling its intra-Schengen borders - with today's masses of economic migrants, it quickly becomes an issue of national security.
I say any EU regulation that might undermine national security of a member state should be treated as void. It is, of course, difficult to draw an exact line of when this is the case ...)


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## MattiG

Corvinus said:


> Do authorities give a reason for this?


Why should they?

The free-flow traffic is only one aspect regarding to the arrangement at the borders. The Schengen agreement allows any action at the border based on the local jurisdiction if they do not have border control as an objective. It is, for example, allowed to set up arrangements ensuring traffic safety at the borders.

The Schengen Border Code introduces two contradicting rules:

_Member States shall remove all obstacles to fluid traffic flow at road crossing-points at internal borders, in particular any speed limits not exclusively based on road-safety considerations. At the same time, Member States shall be prepared to provide for facilities for checks in the event that internal border controls are reintroduced._

So, the authorities are allowed to set up a channeling arrangement as a preparatory measure, and this arrangement definitely requires a speed limit for road safety

What comes to the Finnish-Norwegian border, the rules are slightly different because Norway is not an EU Country, and not belonging to the EU Customs Union. Anyone carrying goods to declare must use the official border crossing points, and the customs are entitled to perform checks. (Technically Norway is not a member to the Schengen agreement: It has made a separate agreement with EU to implement the Schengen arrangements.)


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## MattiG

OulaL said:


> Well, you do have to slow down. There is a limit of 30 km/h on every Finnish Schengen crossing, accompanied with a notification of camera surveillance.


That is not exactly true. The new street in Tornio crossing the border (Krannikatu) close to the new bus terminus does not have that speed limit (if not introduced since my last visit).


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## eucitizen

I dont know why you talk a lot about video surveillance at border crossings. Afterall there is video surveillance almost everywhere. There cameras on motorways to check te traffic flow. Where there is toll for truck there are cameras on gates. We are almost everywehre under video surveillance.


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## Eulanthe

MattiG said:


> So, the authorities are allowed to set up a channeling arrangement as a preparatory measure, and this arrangement definitely requires a speed limit for road safety


My understanding of the Schengen Borders Code is slightly different to yours. It is intended that traffic can pass freely, but an area should be available for conducting checks if needs be. That should be to the side (or perhaps in the middle) of the road - but it shouldn't be a permanent feature. The best example I can think of is on the Czech D1/Polish A1 - there's an area at the border that can be used if needs be. But there should be no permanent speed limit or barrier. I think the EU has consciously chosen to ignore lower limits provided they aren't being used to systematically control travellers - after all, the Schengen Borders Code is silent on the issue of actually monitoring the border. As I recall, the original intent for Schengen was that traffic would slow down (but not stop) through manned border crossings. It was only with the passing of the Single European Act (and subsequent abolishing of Customs controls within the EU) that meant that Schengen had to evolve into the current format.


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## GROBIN

Talking about impedements for Schengen border crossings ... is there any way to impede the Polish customs officers from stopping on a daily basis lots of vehicles in Budzisko (PL/LT)Since 2012, each time I crossed that border I saw them there ... which is why I try to avoid that road too.


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## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> My understanding of the Schengen Borders Code is slightly different to yours. It is intended that traffic can pass freely, but an area should be available for conducting checks if needs be. That should be to the side (or perhaps in the middle) of the road - but it shouldn't be a permanent feature.


There is no such a statement. The member countries have a wide freedom to interpret the text as they wish.


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## OulaL

MattiG said:


> That is not exactly true. The new street in Tornio crossing the border (Krannikatu) close to the new bus terminus does not have that speed limit (if not introduced since my last visit).


Maybe so. I haven't visited Tornio for some time either, as far as I know the area around Krannigatan (Swedish side) is under construction anyway. Last time I was there, and also as seen on Google Street View, there aren't even country names signposted at the border.

However, on the Finnish side right after the borderline Krannikatu ends in a roundabout so you'll have to slow down anyway. The cameras are easily seen right next to the roundabout with Street View.


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## Eulanthe

MattiG said:


> There is no such a statement. The member countries have a wide freedom to interpret the text as they wish.


I'm not so sure that's true. The EU clearly intervened at La Jonquera when the French and Spanish were using the old infrastructure to carry out 'identity' controls. What you posted - as I read it - means that they should be able to reintroduce checks if needs be - but they are also required to maintain fluid traffic flow. There's a press release from the EU on this - 



> Permanent infrastructure for the cases of a temporary reintroduction of border control may be maintained to the necessary extent, as long as it does not represent an obstacle to fluid traffic flow and lowered speed limits. In the view of the Commission, it is however unacceptable that some Member States maintain speed limits for "traffic security" reasons, in particular when the old infrastructure is still present at the crossing-points.


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## alserrod

That's true but to compare...in my region there are four international crossings.
One of them which has more traffic (Somport tunnel) was built after Schenger and without booths (and without place for them in case of). 
The other three ones remain former booths and passes were refurbished to avoid the maximum speed in each area. Although they could be used for random checks, no police presence is there


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## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> I'm not so sure that's true. The EU clearly intervened at La Jonquera when the French and Spanish were using the old infrastructure to carry out 'identity' controls. What you posted - as I read it - means that they should be able to reintroduce checks if needs be - but they are also required to maintain fluid traffic flow. There's a press release from the EU on this -


 NATO Mode (No Action Talk Only) - arrangements accepted. The World is full of point speed limits. Why to bother?


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## Singidunum

Border crossing Vrbica-Valcani between Serbia and Romania (report is in Hungarian to make things more interesting I guess)



Alex_ZR said:


> Гранични прелаз Врбица према Румунији:


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## WB2010

^^
Maybe it is in Hungarian because Hungarians are living on both sides of the border ? It wouldn't be a surprise because for instance Hungarians live also along the Slovakia/Ukraine border just like Poles live along the Lithuania/Belarus border (in these cases, as you can imagine, communication is quite complicated nowadays).


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## Alex_ZR

WB2010 said:


> ^^
> Maybe it is in Hungarian because Hungarians are living on both sides of the border ? It wouldn't be a surprise because for instance Hungarians live also along the Slovakia/Ukraine border just like Poles live along the Lithuania/Belarus border (in these cases, as you can imagine, communication is quite complicated nowadays).


It is, and the lady in end of video lives in Romania but speaks Serbian.


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## Singidunum

Actually that lady is from a village populated by Bulgarians (and her last name ends in -ov too). Now that would have been an extra twist, if she spoke in Bulgarian


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## erxgli

Crossing to Reynosa México from McAllen Texas.


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## cinxxx

Alex_ZR said:


> It is, and the lady in end of video lives in Romania but speaks Serbian.


What does the woman say?


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## volodaaaa

cinxxx said:


> What does the woman say?


She says that although she have not moved by a single meter, she had four citizenships. 

:jk:


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## Singidunum

She says how she has a holiday house near Babatovo in Serbia and how it will be much easier to go there now.


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## Alex_ZR

^^ Which is very strange, since Babatovo is near Zrenjanin and she lives in Dudeștii Vechi in Romania...


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## Singidunum

^^
She is obviously a smuggler. There is no other explanation.


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## Penn's Woods

^^Who knows what she's hiding under that scarf?


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## volodaaaa

Well, we can conclude she looks very suspicious. I guess she is smuggling cigarettes or perhaps some soft drugs. That stuff might suitably fit under her scarf.


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## alserrod

Due to terrorism in France I've seen news about border control between France and Spain. It was in the E-07. I guess they make it in Urdos in France and later in Spain they make it in Villanua. It is not the border at all... you can approach via raiway or road to several towns more and two ski resorts. It is not a border control although just a exhaustive check on these days


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## Singidunum

volodaaaa said:


> Well, we can conclude she looks very suspicious. I guess she is smuggling cigarettes or perhaps some soft drugs. That stuff might suitably fit under her scarf.


Another reason to ban those hijabs for good


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## MichiH

Prejudice.... hno:


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## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> Due to terrorism in France I've seen news about border control between France and Spain. It was in the E-07. I guess they make it in Urdos in France and later in Spain they make it in Villanua. It is not the border at all... you can approach via raiway or road to several towns more and two ski resorts. It is not a border control although just a exhaustive check on these days


This is exactly what controls should be like under Schengen. I've seen some documents a while ago that suggested that the plan was to move all police on the borders to inland - so while you wouldn't be stopped anymore at Irun/Hendaye, border controls instead would be carried out at any place and at any time. You could be on a local train in the middle of Spain and a border control could be carried out - the intention was never to stop border controls, but simply to get rid of the web of border posts littering Europe.


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## cinxxx

^^I think I saw some random controls at Bari airport while waiting in the terminal (flight was Schengen, to Germany)


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## Singidunum

But how many people carry ID on a local train in the middle of Spain?


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## Kanadzie

Eulanthe said:


> This is exactly what controls should be like under Schengen. I've seen some documents a while ago that suggested that the plan was to move all police on the borders to inland - so while you wouldn't be stopped anymore at Irun/Hendaye, border controls instead would be carried out at any place and at any time. You could be on a local train in the middle of Spain and a border control could be carried out - the intention was never to stop border controls, but simply to get rid of the web of border posts littering Europe.


But then there is so much problems - like for example, border control could go and ask you something, at any time? its scary...


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## volodaaaa

Singidunum said:


> But how many people carry ID on a local train in the middle of Spain?


Isn't carrying an ID compulsory?


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## Kanadzie

^^ Yeah, in the North Korea :lol:


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## aubergine72

^^

Whether required or not, you should always a carry an ID. What if you die and they can't identify you?


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## Singidunum

volodaaaa said:


> Isn't carrying an ID compulsory?





Kanadzie said:


> ^^ Yeah, in the North Korea :lol:


Well yes in some countries and not just like in North Korea, for example the above mentioned Spain seems to be one of such countries, at least Wikipedia says for Spanish DNI that "by law, it has to be carried at all times". But many EU countries don't have such provisions.


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## Penn's Woods

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ Yeah, in the North Korea :lol:


And France, if I'm not mistaken.

Seriously, I get the impression that the lack of a national ID card is yet another instance where some Continentals think "Anglo-Saxons"* are backwards and incomprehensible.

*A word I hate, except when it's referring to the first Germanic peoples to move to England, since I don't have a drop of Anglo-Saxon blood in me.... But which seems to mean Brits and Americans. And presumably Canadians, when they remember you exist.


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## Penn's Woods

aubergine72 said:


> ^^
> 
> Whether required or not, you should always a carry an ID. What if you die and they can't identify you?


If I'm just going around the corner to pick up some food (and not driving), I'll take the risk.
(Uh-oh, now I've tempted fate...and it's almost dinner time and I need to go get something. )


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## alserrod

By law, in Spain it is compulsory to carry the ID card always.
And because international treatments it is enough with it to travel anywhere in the EU and more countries. Therefore few people have a passport.

(for instant I am fed up about the situation that in any form I'll fill I have to write the ID number whilst more important than given name...)


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## x-type

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ Yeah, in the North Korea :lol:


:?:


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## MattiG

Penn's Woods said:


> Seriously, I get the impression that the lack of a national ID card is yet another instance where some Continentals think "Anglo-Saxons"* are backwards and incomprehensible.


And consistent, too. We bloody foreigners say that UK is the largest outdoor museum in Europe.


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## Aokromes

Singidunum said:


> But how many people carry ID on a local train in the middle of Spain?


Almost every Spanish with it uses to carry it.



volodaaaa said:


> Isn't carrying an ID compulsory?





alserrod said:


> By law, in Spain it is compulsory to carry the ID card always.
> And because international treatments it is enough with it to travel anywhere in the EU and more countries. Therefore few people have a passport.
> 
> (for instant I am fed up about the situation that in any form I'll fill I have to write the ID number whilst more important than given name...)


No, it's not, you don't need to carry it.

"No es obligatorio llevar siempre el DNI, pero el ciudadano tiene la obligación de identificarse ante cualquier Agente de la autoridad que así lo requiera, pudiendo hacerse esta identificación con cualquier otro documento que satisfaga al Agente (pasaporte, libro de familia, etc.).9 Si bien, si no se puede realizar esta identificación de forma satisfactoria, los Agentes pueden requerir al ciudadano que les acompañen a dependencias donde sea posible practicar las diligencias necesarias para su identificación.9 Negarse a identificarse ante un Agente de la autoridad o se negarse a hacer voluntariamente dichas diligencias podría ser constitutiva de infracción administrativa o, en su caso, infracción penal de los artículos 634 y 556 del Código Penal.9"

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documento_de_identidad#Historia


----------



## pai nosso

alserrod said:


> By law, in Spain it is compulsory to carry the ID card always.
> And because international treatments it is enough with it to travel anywhere in the EU and more countries. Therefore few people have a passport.



Also in Portugal!

For driving, you need too have your Identity Card and your Driver`s License.


At all times you need to have your Identity Card, because if you don`t and any police force ask for your ID and you don`t have it you win a trip to the local police station and you may loose hours of your life till the police can identify you!!:lol::lol:




alserrod said:


> (for instant I am fed up about the situation that in any form I'll fill I have to write the ID number whilst more important than given name...)


Very true!!:yes::lol:

For instance, my ID number and my fiscal number i already know by heart!!:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## italystf

In Italy it's not mandatory to carry your ID always with you. However, I prefer to keep it always in my wallet, so I avoid forgetting it when I may need it.


----------



## Singidunum

Aokromes said:


> No, it's not, you don't need to carry it.
> 
> "No es obligatorio llevar siempre el DNI, pero el ciudadano tiene la obligación de identificarse ante cualquier Agente de la autoridad que así lo requiera, pudiendo hacerse esta identificación con cualquier otro documento que satisfaga al Agente (pasaporte, libro de familia, etc.).9 Si bien, si no se puede realizar esta identificación de forma satisfactoria, los Agentes pueden requerir al ciudadano que les acompañen a dependencias donde sea posible practicar las diligencias necesarias para su identificación.9 Negarse a identificarse ante un Agente de la autoridad o se negarse a hacer voluntariamente dichas diligencias podría ser constitutiva de infracción administrativa o, en su caso, infracción penal de los artículos 634 y 556 del Código Penal.9"
> 
> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documento_de_identidad#Historia


Well OK you don't need to carry it but you will be brought to the police station for identification if you don't, for most sane people that sounds like you have to carry it especially if out of town where that wouldn't be a one hour formality but an ordeal.

But then again how often do police randomly stop people and ask for ID? Is it a common thing in Spain?


----------



## Penn's Woods

MattiG said:


> And consistent, too. We bloody foreigners say that UK is the largest outdoor museum in Europe.


Isn't *all* of Europe a sort of medieval theme park? :jk:

(Albeit one with really good food? Well, except the UK.)


----------



## alserrod

Singidunum said:


> Well OK you don't need to carry it but you will be brought to the police station for identification if you don't, for most sane people that sounds like you have to carry it especially if out of town where that wouldn't be a one hour formality but an ordeal.
> 
> But then again how often do police randomly stop people and ask for ID? Is it a common thing in Spain?




On roads it is quite weird. Last time I remember I was stopped there was a terrorism attack that month.
And on the street I've never been stopped.


But for instance, if I wanna pay with a credit card, I must identify myself...


----------



## Penn's Woods

In the U.S., your driver's license functions as a de facto ID card for other circumstances. So much so that some if not all states offer "non-driver photo IDs" for people who want an ID but don't drive.

I've never (I believe) had to show ID to pay with a credit card; in fact, a credit card itself can function as ID. ("May I see your driver's license and a major credit card?") I think they'll ask for a credit card (or license) if you want to pay for something with a check, but I never pay for merchandise with checks....

ADDED:
There was a little problem for people from New Jersey (like my parents) after 9/11. New Jersey had the quirk of issuing driver's licenses without photos (they'd just describe the person - eye color, height...) So when you suddenly needed photo ID to get into, say, government buildings it was a problem. New Jersey started offering photos as an option and I'd guess it's standard now.


----------



## alserrod

In my case, ID card and driving licence fits on standard credit cards lengths. Therefore I always have together the ID card and the credit card 'cos 90% times I use them, I...use both at the same time.

In fact having the driving licence is enough for almost everything (even for voting) but people remains carrying their ID.

In addition it is enough the ID card for all EU and some other countries (and conversely they can come with only the ID card, not the passport).

What I do not understand is why they do not joint Id card and driving licence because they are released by the same administration.


----------



## volodaaaa

Actually, I don't know whether it is obligatory in Slovakia, but I feel comfortable with my ID, DL, VRC card, insurance card and credit card in my wallet. Sometimes I sporadically decide to travel to Austria and perhaps it would be bad to have nothing to put forward.


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## Singidunum

^^
Losing your wallet would be a nightmare.


----------



## MattiG

alserrod said:


> What I do not understand is why they do not joint Id card and driving licence because they are released by the same administration.


The same question is often raised in Finland. The response is that the EU driving license does not display the nationality. 

Changing important things in EU does not happen quickly, while all crazy initiatives will be put in place without any delay.


----------



## Attus

alserrod said:


> why they do not joint Id card and driving licence because they are released by the same administration.


Usually, but not always. For example I have a Hungarian ID and a German driver license.


----------



## Attus

Singidunum said:


> ^^
> Losing your wallet would be a nightmare.


Yes, it is. It happened to me once. Luckily I had my passport at home so at least I had that single document.


----------



## El Tiburon

Penn's Woods said:


> I've never (I believe) had to show ID to pay with a credit card; in fact, a credit card itself can function as ID.


Due to the increase in fraud with cloned credit cards, many retailers are asking to see ID on credit card purchases to make sure that the name on the credit card slip matches the name on the ID. Some credit cards have photographs but that's of no help when the information in the magnetic strip belongs to someone else.


----------



## El Tiburon

As Penn's Woods said in a previous post, in the United States, driver licenses and state ID cards (for non-drivers) are the most common forms of official identification. The federal government issues passpots and passport cards (good only for land or sea travel to Canada, Mexico, Caribbean and Bermuda) for U.S. citizens. Resident alien (green) cards, work permits and refugee travel documents are issued to legal foreigners. Most states also issue concealed weapon licenses to teir residents, though in a couple of states is legal to carry a gun without the need of a license..

The requirements to carry identification vary state by state. You have to carry your driver license while driving and your concealed weapon license when carrying guns. But in most places, you can verbally identify yourself if walking. Police are not supposed to stop you without reasonable suspicion of the commission of a crime though plenty of cops do it to people who don't know their rights. In any event, police have access to databases with photographs and extremely detailed personal information on most everyone, so they can readilyverify any information provided and, now, some police departments install apps in their officers' phones that can scan and run fingerprints and do face recognition. 

In 2005, taking advantage of the post-9/11 hysteria, Congress passed the so-called "Real ID" Act which is nothing more than a back-door scheme to turn state driver licenses into national ID cards, something that liberty-minded Americans have resisted for many years to avoid the "Papers, please!" system typical of nazi Germany and communist countries. The act requires that states issue so-called "enhanced" driver licenses or ID cards and obtain social security numbers, birth certificates/passports/ommigration documents, and proof of where you actually reside through deeds, utility bills, etc. before 2018 or, else, people with non-Real ID-compliant licenses will not be able to use them to enter federal buildings or board airplanes. Valid passports (U.S. or foreign) are acceptable ID's for those purposes. The act was passed under the pretext of protection from terrorists and illegal aliens who, however, are not allowed to have driver licenses under the act anyway, so there are no records, information or photographs of them, yet, they can board planes or enter federal buildings with their valid foreign passports, which shows that the act is really aimed at cintrolling, and keeping tabs on, Americans and legal foreign residents.

In addition to those ID's for the general public, there are military ID's for servicemen and specialty ID's for workers in airports, seaports and critical infrastructure facilities with much more stringent requirements than general-use ID's.


----------



## El Tiburon

alserrod said:


> What I do not understand is why they do not joint Id card and driving licence because they are released by the same administration.


Could be just mindless bureaucratism or a scheme of the politicians to charge you fees twice.


----------



## volodaaaa

There are different type of data noted on each card. And don't forget driver's licence categories with date of issue and expiration. I know ale those data could be stored on chip, but to be honest, there are still lot of services that require you to put forward your documents and have not got any chip reader.


----------



## alserrod

El Tiburon said:


> Could be just mindless bureaucratism or a scheme of the politicians to charge you fees twice.


Much more crazy!!!. There are several official documents (incluiding, for instance, the health system card) but ID card, passport and driving licence are issued by home office (ministerio del interior).


----------



## arctic_carlos

In the US I've experienced annoying situations resulting from the lack of a proper identification. I was there as an exchange student when I was 21, and although I could legally buy alcohol and therefore I could enter bars and restaurants without restrictions, I had to carry my Spanish passport at all times. Every time I tried to show proof of my age with my Spanish ID Card or My Spanish Driving License, I was refused access to the premises where alcohol was served (even though I could have just ordered a coke!). I found that paranoid, especially taking into account that a passport doesn't fit into a wallet, and being a man I wasn't carrying a purse or a handbag where it could fit. As a result I had to carry it at all times in my pocket, just in case I wanted to buy a beer or simply have dinner in a restaurant that also had license as a bar. After a semester, the letters on the cover of the passport displaying "Spain" had faded, so now my passport must be opened to check its nationality.

But the most annoying situation happened to an Italian friend of mine. We went to a local coffee shop one day, and some of us ordered a beer pitcher (I assume it was a coffee shop with alcohol license). The waitress asked us for our IDs in order not only to give us the pitcher, but also the exact number of glasses. The majority of us were obediently carrying our European passports, but she did only carry her Italian ID card. She was 23 at that time, but the waitress refused to give her a glass, warning us that we would be all expelled from the premises if she caught my Italian friend drinking from somebody's glass! Seriously, this is ridiculous.

In addition, some European friends of mine had also trouble with another ID related issue. In most European countries the date of birth is shown dd/mm/yyyy, while in the US it is shown mm/dd/yyyy. Therefore, a Spanish friend of mine who had been born on January 8 was mistakenly identified as being born on August 1. And, precisely, I went with her to the US in April of the year she had turned 21. Try to tell a supermarket cashier when buying a beer that in Europe we write the dates in a different way...

Besides that, I had a great experience in the US. :lol:


----------



## alserrod

BTW, to my best knowledge there is a recommendation of UN to write the month in letters instead of numbers and, supossing it is on numbers, use dd/mm/yyyy


----------



## Penn's Woods

arctic_carlos said:


> In the US I've experienced annoying situations resulting from the lack of a proper identification. I was there as an exchange student when I was 21, and although I could legally buy alcohol and therefore I could enter bars and restaurants without restrictions, I had to carry my Spanish passport at all times. Every time I tried to show proof of my age with my Spanish ID Card or My Spanish Driving License, I was refused access to the premises where alcohol was served (even though I could have just ordered a coke!). I found that paranoid, especially taking into account that a passport doesn't fit into a wallet, and being a man I wasn't carrying a purse or a handbag where it could fit. As a result I had to carry it at all times in my pocket, just in case I wanted to buy a beer or simply have dinner in a restaurant that also had license as a bar. After a semester, the letters on the cover of the passport displaying "Spain" had faded, so now my passport must be opened to check its nationality.
> 
> But the most annoying situation happened to an Italian friend of mine. We went to a local coffee shop one day, and some of us ordered a beer pitcher (I assume it was a coffee shop with alcohol license). The waitress asked us for our IDs in order not only to give us the pitcher, but also the exact number of glasses. The majority of us were obediently carrying our European passports, but she did only carry her Italian ID card. She was 23 at that time, but the waitress refused to give her a glass, warning us that we would be all expelled from the premises if she caught my Italian friend drinking from somebody's glass! Seriously, this is ridiculous.
> 
> In addition, some European friends of mine had also trouble with another ID related issue. In most European countries the date of birth is shown dd/mm/yyyy, while in the US it is shown mm/dd/yyyy. Therefore, a Spanish friend of mine who had been born on January 8 was mistakenly identified as being born on August 1. And, precisely, I went with her to the US in April of the year she had turned 21. Try to tell a supermarket cashier when buying a beer that in Europe we write the dates in a different way...
> 
> Besides that, I had a great experience in the US. :lol:


Well...

I suppose your average supermarket cashier or waitress doesn't see many foreign IDs. (At least from farther away than Canada and Mexico.) It's - as you know - a big country with oceans on two sides. _Some_ degree of training might be in order, although how often does it come up in small, out-of-the-way places...or maybe the State Department should look into something that would work for visitors, particularly long-term visitors like students. (I'm thinking something like the International Driver's License that Americans are advised to get if they're going to Europe...which is really just a translation of your American one into multiple languages.)

I'm glad the rest of your experience was good. :-/

:cheers:


----------



## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> BTW, to my best knowledge there is a recommendation of UN to write the month in letters instead of numbers and, supossing it is on numbers, use dd/mm/yyyy


Uh-oh.

Telling Americans the UN is recommending something is the surest way to get it not to happen! (And seriously, doesn't the UN have more important things to do than standardize dates?) That said, personally I'm partial to the Roman-numerals-for-the-month method: 11.I.2015. Although looking at it, I can see how it's not ideal in January and February.


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## stickedy

According to ISO 8601, the date format should be YYYY-MM-DD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601

That would make sense, but sadly afaik close to zero countries have changed their official format to that ISO standard.


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## volodaaaa

This only make sense. For instance, imagine folders on your hdd. What format would you choose to have it ultimately ordered by days?


----------



## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> Well...
> 
> I suppose your average supermarket cashier or waitress doesn't see many foreign IDs. (At least from farther away than Canada and Mexico.) It's - as you know - a big country with oceans on two sides. _Some_ degree of training might be in order, although how often does it come up in small, out-of-the-way places...or maybe the State Department should look into something that would work for visitors, particularly long-term visitors like students. (I'm thinking something like the International Driver's License that Americans are advised to get if they're going to Europe...which is really just a translation of your American one into multiple languages.)
> 
> I'm glad the rest of your experience was good. :-/
> 
> :cheers:


I had - almost - the same bad experience when I was boarding the Eurostar train in Paris. The UK immigration officer looked suspiciously at my Italian ID card for 5 minutes straight, than looked at me and said: "This is fine, but next time bring your passport, it will make my work easier".

Seriously, I don't give a damn about making your work easy. Italian ID card is enough to get to UK per EU agreements, so shut the bleep up and let me in.




Penn's Woods said:


> Uh-oh.
> 
> Telling Americans the UN is recommending something is the surest way to get it not to happen! (And seriously, doesn't the UN have more important things to do than standardize dates?) That said, personally I'm partial to the Roman-numerals-for-the-month method: 11.I.2015. Although looking at it, I can see how it's not ideal in January and February.


You are entitled to do whatever you like, of course, but please agree with me that putting months first makes no sense at all. Please!


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Indeed. On my work place's internal web site, I post every week an article that we publish in a newspaper. I decided myself to file them as 2014-12-09-[subject], for example, so that they sort chronologically.

But the U.N. really doesn't need to regulate how people use their own languages.

But - stray thought here - do Europeans really speak in the 24-hour system which is pretty much all you see in print? And I realize there's no such thing as "Europeans," rather an answer (possibly more than one) for every language. I mean, do you actually say it's "14:30" or "2:30 in the afternoon"?


----------



## volodaaaa

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Indeed. On my work place's internal web site, I post every week an article that we publish in a newspaper. I decided myself to file them as 2014-12-09-[subject], for example, so that they sort chronologically.
> 
> But the U.N. really doesn't need to regulate how people use their own languages.
> 
> But - stray thought here - do Europeans really speak in the 24-hour system which is pretty much all you see in print? And I realize there's no such thing as "Europeans," rather an answer (possibly more than one) for every language. I mean, do you actually say it's "14:30" or "2:30 in the afternoon"?


Well, according to my experiences, 12 hour format is being used in common speech while 24 hour in writing. I have not heard anyone saying 'we will meet at twenty-two o'clock':lol:


----------



## stickedy

Penn's Woods said:


> But - stray thought here - do Europeans really speak in the 24-hour system which is pretty much all you see in print? And I realize there's no such thing as "Europeans," rather an answer (possibly more than one) for every language. I mean, do you actually say it's "14:30" or "2:30 in the afternoon"?


In Germany, at least in the south, we use the 12-hour system when speaking to each other. E.g. we say that we are meeting at 8 at the cinema to watch a movie. We only use the 24-hour-system to make things clear when it's not obvious which time is meant or we are using the time of day as addition. In any written thing, we use the 24-hour system.


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## Penn's Woods

Danke. (And Volodaaa, whatever "Thank you" is in Slovak.)

We mostly use "a.m." and "p.m." People think of the 24-hour clock as "military time."


----------



## g.spinoza

volodaaaa said:


> Well, according to my experiences, 12 hour format is being used in common speech while 24 hour in writing. I have not heard anyone saying 'we will meet at twenty-two o'clock':lol:


That's what we do in Italy too. Although, in some contexts, you can also say "let's meet at twenty-two o'clock" (like tv broadcasts, or theatre/cinema shows).


----------



## volodaaaa

Penn's Woods said:


> Danke. (And Volodaaa, whatever "Thank you" is in Slovak.)
> 
> We mostly use "a.m." and "p.m." People think of the 24-hour clock as "military time."


It is "Ďakujem". You can read it without the accent, it would sound as dialect, but it is okay 

Btw. are'nt we in a wrong thread?


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^If they just renamed it "International Border Crossings/Roadside Rest Area II," it would be a more accurate reflection of what it is. ;-)


----------



## Penn's Woods

g.spinoza said:


> You are entitled to do whatever you like, of course, but please agree with me that putting months first makes no sense at all. Please!


Spoken like a true scientist. 

You won't get very far expecting language to make sense.


----------



## alserrod

stickedy said:


> In Germany, at least in the south, we use the 12-hour system when speaking to each other. E.g. we say that we are meeting at 8 at the cinema to watch a movie. We only use the 24-hour-system to make things clear when it's not obvious which time is meant or we are using the time of day as addition. In any written thing, we use the 24-hour system.





Penn's Woods said:


> Danke. (And Volodaaa, whatever "Thank you" is in Slovak.)
> 
> We mostly use "a.m." and "p.m." People think of the 24-hour clock as "military time."



In Spain, when talking you will almost always hear 12h but writing is quite often the 24h.

My company operates 24h and with first computering systems they had a problem due to a misundestanding on am/pm. Therefore, 24h format always


----------



## volodaaaa

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^If they just renamed it "International Border Crossings/Roadside Rest Area II," it would be a more accurate reflection of what it is. ;-)


I prefer to rename it to "Roadside Rest Area at border crossing". We can also create the thread devoted to language issues. It should be "Small talk with border officer while checking passports" (with Road_UK as honourable mod). Just to keep transport issues.


Btw. as for time format, my student have problem to understand what 0:00 is. I used to announce the due date for project submission to e.g. 2014/10/10 0:00 (the first minute of the date) and whole class had been sending me the projects during the date :lol. So I've changed it to 23:59 of certain date (eg.g 2014/10/10 23:59) since two years ago. Those youngsters.


----------



## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> Danke. (And Volodaaa, whatever "Thank you" is in Slovak.)


DON'T!!!


----------



## x-type

Road_UK said:


> DON'T!!!


i have just been wondering whether you would notice this thing (that could make your day  )

on topic: border crossings where one changes the time-zone. are there usually some signs that warn about adjusting the time?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> DON'T!!!


:baeh3:

:grumpy:


----------



## Penn's Woods

x-type said:


> on topic: border crossings where one changes the time-zone. are there usually some signs that warn about adjusting the time?


I think that came up, up-thread. For the Finnish-Swedish border, if memory serves. And the answer was no. (They could easily put the time zone on the border signs.... clock symbol and UTC+1 or something.)

Here, they do show time zones. Also on road maps. But we have plenty of cases where the time changes within a state. (And there we veer off-topic again.  )


----------



## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> i have just been wondering whether you would notice this thing (that could make your day  )
> 
> on topic: border crossings where one changes the time-zone. are there usually some signs that warn about adjusting the time?


Nothing of the sort between France and UK at the Eurotunnel terminal.


----------



## volodaaaa

I have not seen such sign on European roads. Btw. beautiful topic fusion.


----------



## Road_UK

Never seen anything on the Spanish Portuguese border. On the ferry between Sweden and Finland they keep the point of departure time.


----------



## CNGL

I don't remember anything on the Spanish-Portuguese border either. And I've been to Portugal only once and for a few hours, but at least I've been there!

BTW, due to the Chinese weird rules that put all of the country in the same time zone, their border with Afghanistan is the biggest time gap in existence: Three and a half hours!

PS: for me the Canaries is in any time zone except the one they actually are :troll: \/\/


----------



## alserrod

Road_UK said:


> Never seen anything on the Spanish Portuguese border. On the ferry between Sweden and Finland they keep the point of departure time.


In the Spanish-Portuguese borders they do not point that time is different. Only taking a handout train schedules they will say that "always local times".

By plane, local times as in any world corner.

And... neither to Morocco, time advices are given.


BTW, Canary islands have the Irish, UK and Portuguese time. In a radio it is quite often to hear "it is ten o'clock, nine in Canaries" or so... Nowadays with new technology they are able to put TV ads about a program or movie on TV saying day and time and... ads in Canary offer always local time (this is, a movie at 22:00 in mainland will be offered as 21:00 in Canary islands and all ads will say 21:00 without saying that Canary time)


----------



## stickedy

I don't remember any signs on the Albanian-Greece or Macedonian-Greece border.


----------



## Eulanthe

No signs on the Polish-Ukrainian border too. Speaking of time, has anyone ever crossed a border (illegally) outside of the normal opening hours? I could never figure out what was stopping people crossing many 'tourist' border crossings after hours...


----------



## alserrod

A long time ago I remember that any road map had the schedule for all border pass with the five boundary countries.

Main ones opened 24/7 but those with less traffic could close while night. I remember that in my region, the Somport pass was always opened but the other two ones closed on nigth. One of them had different schedules for each season. Maybe four or five different per year and people living there said it was a nightmare.


Nowadays all border booths (this is, off Schengen area) open 24/7


----------



## DanielFigFoz

g.spinoza said:


> Seriously, I don't give a damn about making your work easy. Italian ID card is enough to get to UK per EU agreements, so shut the bleep up and let me in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


I also noticed this at Birmingham Airport after I'd got of a flight from Porto. I noticed that all the Portuguese people that presented ID cards were asked if they had a passport, then were told, in a slightly harsh tone, that ID cards weren't very good and that passports were better. One of the passport control officers literally waved some woman's ID card in her face, saying 'these aren't good'.
There were also signs asking people who wanted to through passport control with ID cards to get their boarding cards to quicker processing. 
I've never seen anyone complaining at Heathrow.



alserrod said:


> BTW, Canary islands have the Irish, UK and Portuguese time. In a radio it is quite often to hear "it is ten o'clock, nine in Canaries" or so... Nowadays with new technology they are able to put TV ads about a program or movie on TV saying day and time and... ads in Canary offer always local time (this is, a movie at 22:00 in mainland will be offered as 21:00 in Canary islands and all ads will say 21:00 without saying that Canary time)


Yeah, you get that on the Portuguese radio, 'it's 7 o'clock on the Continent and in the Azores, 6 o'clock in Madeira' or something.


----------



## Road_UK

Apart from the Swiss border with other countries for vehicles carrying goods. They still need to be cleared at customs as Switzerland is not in the EU, even though it has signed up for Schengen. Same goes for Norway I think...


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Road_UK said:


> Apart from the Swiss border with other countries for vehicles carrying goods. They still need to be cleared at customs as Switzerland is not in the EU, even though it has signed up for Schengen. Same goes for Norway I think...


What do you have to declare, goods over a certain value?


----------



## Road_UK

DanielFigFoz said:


> What do you have to declare, goods over a certain value?


All commercial goods in general. Even when in transit.


----------



## Penn's Woods

DanielFigFoz said:


> Yeah, you get that on the Portuguese radio, 'it's 7 o'clock on the Continent and in the Azores, 6 o'clock in Madeira' or something.


It would be 7 on the Continent and in Madeira, 6 in the Azores, surely.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Yes you are quite right :lol:.


----------



## Stainless

Penn's Woods said:


> It would be 7 on the Continent and in Madeira, 6 in the Azores, surely.


Does this make Portugal the smallest country with more than one time zone?


----------



## Road_UK

And the Netherlands.


----------



## MattiG

Stainless said:


> Does this make Portugal the smallest country with more than one time zone?


Depends on what is the definition of "smallest": By total area, by area without waters, by mainland area, by population,...?

Denmark has 5 time zones, and Kiribati (land area 800+ sq km) three ones.


----------



## Aokromes

stickedy said:


> According to ISO 8601, the date format should be YYYY-MM-DD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601
> 
> That would make sense, but sadly afaik close to zero countries have changed their official format to that ISO standard.


We basques use that system, but far before iso


----------



## Penn's Woods

Okay, here's a question: I know basically that the Schengen agreement closed permanent border controls among its members, and that citizens of those member states can move fairly freely (use their own national ID cards if they're asked for ID elsewhere, that sort of thing...)

I'm curious about people who aren't citizens of member states. Say, an American crossing the French-Belgian border. As a practical matter, the border controls aren't there, but does an American entering a Schengen member state officially, on paper, have the right to enter all of them once he's inside that first one?

Hope I'm making sense....


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Yes, he can, for three months tops.


----------



## stickedy

Penn's Woods said:


> Okay, here's a question: I know basically that the Schengen agreement closed permanent border controls among its members, and that citizens of those member states can move fairly freely (use their own national ID cards if they're asked for ID elsewhere, that sort of thing...)
> 
> I'm curious about people who aren't citizens of member states. Say, an American crossing the French-Belgian border. As a practical matter, the border controls aren't there, but does an American entering a Schengen member state officially, on paper, have the right to enter all of them once he's inside that first one?
> 
> Hope I'm making sense....


Yes, you aren't entering a particular country but instead you are entering the whole Schengen area. You can move freely inside the Schengen area as long as you are allowed to stay (depending on your permit). Therefore, all entry requirements of the Schengen members are identical for foreign people.

In fact you can compare it with the U.S.: You aren't entering just Florida when landing at Miami International Airport but instead the whole United States.


----------



## cinxxx

Don't know for Americans, I guess they don't require visa for EU.

But I have Indian, Chinese, Mexican, Colombian colleagues at work. They can legally only enter those Schengen states entered in the visa. But my colleagues all have visa for the whole Schengen space.

An interesting fact is, for example, they can also travel to Romania, with a Schengen visa for at least 2 or 3 of the members, without having Romanian visa:


> According to Emergency Government Ordinance no. 109/2013, as of February 1st 2014, the bearers of uniform visas (with 2 or multiple entries), long-term visas, as well as residence permits issued by Schengen Member States shall no longer be required to hold a short-stay visa to enter the territory of Romania for a time period that may not exceed 90 days in any 180 day period.
> In order for the bearers of the aforementioned documents to benefit from the facility of entering Romania without holding a Romanian visa, the number of entries as well as the right of stay established as per the Schengen visas, must not have been exhausted.
> Also, the right of stay in the territory of Romania shall not exceed the right of stay granted as per the visas/residence permits issued by Schengen Member States.


*source*


----------



## Verso

Penn's Woods said:


> Okay, here's a question: I know basically that the Schengen agreement closed permanent border controls among its members, and that citizens of those member states can move fairly freely (use their own national ID cards if they're asked for ID elsewhere, that sort of thing...)
> 
> I'm curious about people who aren't citizens of member states. Say, an American crossing the French-Belgian border. As a practical matter, the border controls aren't there, but does an American entering a Schengen member state officially, on paper, have the right to enter all of them once he's inside that first one?
> 
> Hope I'm making sense....


As g.spinoza says, yes. The only difference (I don't know if it currently exists though) is when f.e. Slovenian citizens (when we weren't yet in the EU and Schengen) needed only an ID to enter Austria, but we needed a passport to enter Germany (even though they were both in Schengen with no control on the border).


----------



## italystf

stickedy said:


> Yes, you aren't entering a particular country but instead you are entering the whole Schengen area. Therefore, all entry requirements of the Schengen members are identical for foreign people.
> 
> In fact you can compare it with the U.S.: You aren't entering just Florida when landing at Miami International Airport but instead the whole United States.


It's exactly like this. Of course not only for Americans, but to all other nationalities. A, for example, Russian or Chinese who wants to visit, for example, Italy or France, needs to apply for a Schengen visa, that allows him to travel freely around the Schengen area until his visa is expired. If he wants to visit also a non-Schengen country (for example the UK, Serbia or even Andorra) during his stay in Europe, he'll need to apply for a multiple-entry Schengen visa.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> As g.spinoza says, yes. The only difference (I don't know if it currently exists though) is when f.e. Slovenian citizens (when we weren't yet in the EU and Schengen) needed only an ID to enter Austria, but we needed a passport to enter Germany (even though they were both in Schengen with no control on the border).


I've read back in this thread that until July 2013 Croats needed passport to visit UE, except Italy, Slovenia and Hungary.


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## Verso

Yes, but even then they got some paper when they crossed the border with an ID.


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## arctic_carlos

Nationals from countries who need a visa to enter any given Schengen country are usually given a "Schengen visa", meaning that it is valid for all the Schengen area, not just for a particular Schengen country.

Let's say, somebody from Colombia wants to visit Spain and he applies for a visa in the Spanish Consulate in Bogotá; he will be given a "Schengen visa" and therefore no restrictions will apply to him when going to other Schengen area countries. 

Before Schengen Agreement was concluded most Latin Americans citizens could travel to Spain without a visa; after Schengen went into force Spain had to adapt its policy to the Schengen requirements and all these citizens started to need a visa to visit Spain, which upset public opinion in some Latin American countries; I remember a group of intellectuals felt so insulted by that change of policy that they promised to never visit Spain again. 

In any event Spain took advantage of the situation to control the increasing flow of immigrants from Latin America who arrived in Spain by plane, although it's not so difficult to obtain a tourist visa for the Schengen area and most of them continued coming pretending they were tourists; they simply didn't use the required return ticket.

However since the financial crisis started the flow has somehow reversed, and now some Latin American countries establish restrictions for Spanish citizens (in revenge?). The case of Brazil is widely known, where hundreds of Spaniards were refused entry a couple of years ago alleging their lack of financial support or hotel reservations for the period of stay in the country. But I haven't heard anything else recently.


----------



## Laurentzius

Penn's Woods said:


> Okay, here's a question: I know basically that the Schengen agreement closed permanent border controls among its members, and that citizens of those member states can move fairly freely (use their own national ID cards if they're asked for ID elsewhere, that sort of thing...)


You're largely right, but you conflate things. The Schengen agreement only abolished the physical borders between the Schengen Area member states, but it doesn't have any effect per se on their citizens, as in it doesn't give them any additional rights. The rights you associate with the Schengen agreement, like using the national ID cards if they're asked for ID elsewhere or to cross the still existing internal EU borders, are actually granted by the EU to all EU citizens equally. For example, a French national doesn't have any extra rights to travel within the Schengen Area compared to a British national, and both could use their national ID cards to cross the French-British border. If the British had national ID cards, that is. 



Penn's Woods said:


> I'm curious about people who aren't citizens of member states. Say, an American crossing the French-Belgian border. As a practical matter, the border controls aren't there, but does an American entering a Schengen member state officially, on paper, have the right to enter all of them once he's inside that first one?
> 
> Hope I'm making sense....


All EU member states, excepting the UK and Ireland, plus Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland operate a single visa system, so if you have a visa issued by a Schengen Area member state you can travel in all previously mentioned countries. If you want to travel to the UK or Ireland though, you must obtain a separate visa from either one of them since the two countries operate their own common travel area.


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## DanielFigFoz

It is also possible to have an Irish visa and not be allowed to cross into Northern Ireland, but that's unenforceable.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

Verso said:


> Yes, but even then they got some paper when they crossed the border with an ID.


If i am Croatian and i want to go to Slovenia,do i need pasport or just ID to enter Slovenia?


----------



## stickedy

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> If i am Croatian and i want to go to Slovenia,do i need pasport or just ID to enter Slovenia?


"Citizens of EU countries do not need a visa to enter Slovenia. They just need a valid travel document."


----------



## Penn's Woods

stickedy said:


> Yes, you aren't entering a particular country but instead you are entering the whole Schengen area. You can move freely inside the Schengen area as long as you are allowed to stay (depending on your permit). Therefore, all entry requirements of the Schengen members are identical for foreign people.
> 
> In fact you can compare it with the U.S.: You aren't entering just Florida when landing at Miami International Airport but instead the whole United States.


Thank you all. It seems to me that the bit I've underlined is key. This has been on my mind for a couple of days - can't remember why at this point; I kept forgetting to ask.


----------



## Corvinus

Andorra can be a trap for foreign visitors holding a _single-entry_ Schengen visa. Andorra is visa free for every citizenship, they rely on filtering by France and Spain, as all visitors enter from there with no airport present.
So it's easy to get in, but doing so, one exits Schengen space, and the return from there is a _second _entry to the Schengen space!
Due to customs presence, one might also have his personal documents checked, and then, with a single-entry visa, there is a problem.

I guess it is not unresolvable (at the worst, one could apply for another Schengen entry visa at the French or Spanish embassy - only ones in Andorra), but better avoid this hassle beforehand.


----------



## Penn's Woods

I still can't get my head around Andorra having customs controls (or the neighboring countries having controls for people leaving it). Do they think people would be smuggling goods that were dropped into Andorra from a plane?


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## Corvinus

3 a.m. here, only the American is awake xD

No, not dropped by a plane. But the country does have advantageous taxation. Even VAT ("sales tax") was only introduced in 2004 or so. I guess they get all their merchandise by road transport - the difference in customer price is the difference in what the state takes for itself (not only VAT-wise, also gasoline tax, etc.). So, many goods, including expensive luxury goods, are significantly cheaper, and this is why F and E customs are watching out. 

Generally said, when _entering _Andorra, they rather check persons (country has a low crime rate, which it would like to preserve), and when _exiting_, it's more about goods, as the EU states don't want tax/duty losses. 

You didn't like _Continental Europe's uniformity fetishists_, here's the country withstanding them!

(and no, it's not only about advantages, I've read articles about foreign residents complaining about an "unreliable" legal system, with laws and regulations changing rapidly and unpredictably ...)


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> I've read back in this thread that until July 2013 Croats needed passport to visit UE, except Italy, Slovenia and Hungary.


i think that for some reason one Baltic country was involved too (Lithuania I think). It was the same thing as Verso said for Slovenians entering Austria on the previous page.


----------



## El Tiburon

arctic_carlos said:


> In the US I've experienced annoying situations resulting from the lack of a proper identification. I was there as an exchange student when I was 21, and although I could legally buy alcohol and therefore I could enter bars and restaurants without restrictions, I had to carry my Spanish passport at all times. Every time I tried to show proof of my age with my Spanish ID Card or My Spanish Driving License, I was refused access to the premises where alcohol was served (even though I could have just ordered a coke!). I found that paranoid, especially taking into account that a passport doesn't fit into a wallet, and being a man I wasn't carrying a purse or a handbag where it could fit. As a result I had to carry it at all times in my pocket, just in case I wanted to buy a beer or simply have dinner in a restaurant that also had license as a bar. After a semester, the letters on the cover of the passport displaying "Spain" had faded, so now my passport must be opened to check its nationality.
> 
> But the most annoying situation happened to an Italian friend of mine. We went to a local coffee shop one day, and some of us ordered a beer pitcher (I assume it was a coffee shop with alcohol license). The waitress asked us for our IDs in order not only to give us the pitcher, but also the exact number of glasses. The majority of us were obediently carrying our European passports, but she did only carry her Italian ID card. She was 23 at that time, but the waitress refused to give her a glass, warning us that we would be all expelled from the premises if she caught my Italian friend drinking from somebody's glass! Seriously, this is ridiculous.
> 
> In addition, some European friends of mine had also trouble with another ID related issue. In most European countries the date of birth is shown dd/mm/yyyy, while in the US it is shown mm/dd/yyyy. Therefore, a Spanish friend of mine who had been born on January 8 was mistakenly identified as being born on August 1. And, precisely, I went with her to the US in April of the year she had turned 21. Try to tell a supermarket cashier when buying a beer that in Europe we write the dates in a different way...
> 
> Besides that, I had a great experience in the US. :lol:


Consider also that U.S. Transportation Security Adminsitration officers at the Orlando International Airport thought that a driver license from the District of Columbia (where the nation's capital, Washington, is located) was a foreign license. Most Americans know very little geography and, those who work where alcohol is seved will not risk their jobs or the owner's liquor license wen they are not sure of the ID. In the United States there is a lot of hypocrisy with respect to alcohol and minors and the laws reflect that hypocrisy, even to the point of a ridiculous Florida law that requires students of hospitality.restaurant/bar management who are under 21 to spit out any alcoholic beverages they have to taste as part of their classes. It also has to do with federal money being withheld from states that do not have, or enforce, a drinking age of 21.


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## Verso

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> If i am Croatian and i want to go to Slovenia,do i need pasport or just ID to enter Slovenia?


ID is enough, because we're both in EU (but even before it was enough for a long time, maybe even right from independence, I'm not sure).


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## italystf

El Tiburon said:


> Consider also that U.S. Transportation Security Adminsitration officers at the Orlando International Airport thought that a driver license from the District of Columbia (where the nation's capital, Washington, is located) was a foreign license. Most Americans know very little geography and, those who work where alcohol is seved will not risk their jobs or the owner's liquor license wen they are not sure of the ID. In the United States there is a lot of hypocrisy with respect to alcohol and minors and the laws reflect that hypocrisy, even to the point of a ridiculous Florida law that requires students of hospitality.restaurant/bar management who are under 21 to spit out any alcoholic beverages they have to taste as part of their classes. It also has to do with federal money being withheld from states that do not have, or enforce, a drinking age of 21.


Sometimes American laws and traditions really amaze me. :lol:
It's usually the pioneer country in new technologies (most things nowadays are invented there), but it still teachs creationism in some schools. In Italy, that is aroud 90% Catholic, nobody would ever think to teach creationism at school. In some US states, consensual homosexuality and ****\oral sex in heterosexual couples were illegal until as late as 2003 (and now, many protests against Putin...)
They have ridiculously strict alchool laws that forbide anyone under 21, not only to drink, but also to enter some places where alchool is served. It's also illegal to drink in the street, even without creating any nuisance. They have "anti-loitering" laws, that allow to arrest someone just for standing suispiciously in a place. But nobody can be prohibitted to buy freely as many firearms as he likes and carry around wherever he wants. Maybe they feel more socially dangerous someone with a can of beer rather than a machine gun.:lol:
But maybe Americans are amazed by some European things that we find normal.


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## Penn's Woods

italystf said:


> Sometimes American laws and traditions really amaze me. :lol:
> It's usually the pioneer country in new technologies (most things nowadays are invented there), but it still teachs creationism in some schools. In Italy, that is aroud 90% Catholic, nobody would ever think to teach creationism at school. In some US states, consensual homosexuality and ****\oral sex in heterosexual couples were illegal until as late as 2003 (and now, many protests against Putin...)
> They have ridiculously strict alchool laws that forbide anyone under 21, not only to drink, but also to enter some places where alchool is served. It's also illegal to drink in the street, even without creating any nuisance. They have "anti-loitering" laws, that allow to arrest someone just for standing suispiciously in a place. But nobody can be prohibitted to buy freely as many firearms as he likes and carry around wherever he wants. Maybe they feel more socially dangerous someone with a can of beer rather than a machine gun.:lol:
> But maybe Americans are amazed by some European things that we find normal.


Some of what you say isn't true (particularly about guns*), but you have a point. On the other hand...see my current sig. (I'm amazed at European limitations on free speech.)

*It's perfectly Constitutional to have waiting periods, to prohibit carrying in certain places. The idea that city streets are like something out of a western is a European myth. I haven't touched a gun in 35 years, and haven't seen one since the night I locked myself out of my apartment and happened to witness an arrest in my block. And in that case the gun was in the hand of a police officer. Much of this country legalized same-sex marriage before, for example, France did.... 36 states out of 50 as of last week, I believe.


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

Verso said:


> ID is enough, because we're both in EU (but even before it was enough for a long time, maybe even right from independence, I'm not sure).


Today Serbs can enter Macedonia only with ID.


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## Penn's Woods

^^How about Montenegro?


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

It's the same.


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## Alex_ZR

Bosnia and Herzegovina too, and vice versa.


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## italystf

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Today Serbs can enter Macedonia only with ID.





Penn's Woods said:


> ^^How about Montenegro?





Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> It's the same.





Alex_ZR said:


> Bosnia and Herzegovina too, and vice versa.


Balkan Union. This uniformity... :troll:


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

I remember the times when we had to collect documents and all sort of papers for vizas in order to enter EU countries .That was something completely unnecessarily and stupid.


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## aubergine72

Bulgarians (and I guess all of EU) can enter Macedonia and Serbia with ID cards.


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## Kanadzie

Penn's Woods said:


> Some of what you say isn't true (particularly about guns*), but you have a point. On the other hand...see my current sig. (I'm amazed at European limitations on free speech.)
> 
> *It's perfectly Constitutional to have waiting periods, to prohibit carrying in certain places. The idea that city streets are like something out of a western is a European myth. I haven't touched a gun in 35 years, and haven't seen one since the night I locked myself out of my apartment and happened to witness an arrest in my block. And in that case the gun was in the hand of a police officer. Much of this country legalized same-sex marriage before, for example, France did.... 36 states out of 50 as of last week, I believe.


Ah, but both are ****ed up - Americans are crazy about the booze (Canadians... even worse) but okay on guns, Europeans are psychotic about firearms (Canadian also) but okay on booze... so Canada worst of both worlds :lol: (like gasoline price too... European gas price, American gas mileage :lol


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## alserrod

I've surfed on Andorran information.

Quite easy. They do not require any special documentation. Even if they are out of Schengen area they say that it is enough to have documentation to entry in Spain or France (therefore, to entry inside Schengen area)

Link in English

http://www.andorralavella.ad/en/node/635/visa


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## italystf

aubergine72 said:


> Bulgarians (and I guess all of EU) can enter Macedonia and Serbia with ID cards.


Yes, we EU citizens can enter all Balkan countries except Kosovo with ID only.


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## Ermir

^^Actually Kosovo too since may 2013.


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## arctic_carlos

Kanadzie said:


> Ah, but both are ****ed up - Americans are crazy about the booze (Canadians... even worse) but okay on guns, Europeans are psychotic about firearms (Canadian also) but okay on booze... so Canada worst of both worlds :lol: (like gasoline price too... European gas price, American gas mileage :lol


Regarding alcohol, from my experience I've come to the conclusion that, generally, Americans and Europeans have a different attitude towards booze. Whereas in Europe, particularly in countries such as France, Spain or Italy, alcoholic beverages, especially wine and beer, are seen as an ordinary good you buy in the supermarket and drink above all during meals, in the USA alcohol is most times seen as something "bad" that causes unacceptable conducts, car accidents and alcoholism. 

In Europe it's quite normal to see parents at home or in restaurants letting their teenage children taste wine, beer or champagne in order to introduce them to a healthy consumption of alcoholic beverages (better than starting drinking cheap vodka on the street at night). In most European countries the legal age for drinking alcohol is 18, but restaurant and bar owners usually tolerate this kind of situations. I can't imagine the same situation happening in an American restaurant. I don't know, maybe we are too permissive in Europe.

Going back to topic, Andorra is like heaven for shopping. The main street of the capital city is full of shopping malls (and banks :lol, you can buy anything you want cheaper than in Spain or in France (products usually show prices of the products in the three countries), especially electronic goods, as taxes are really low. But if Spanish or French authorities catch you at the border with products exceeding a given amount (that now I don't remember), you have to pay the taxes you have avoided buying the product in Andorra.

However only one car out of ten are usually stopped by the police, at least at the Spanish border, so most people can get away with it, although it's a little risky.


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## Penn's Woods

arctic_carlos said:


> In Europe it's quite normal to see parents at home or in restaurants letting their teenage children taste wine, beer or champagne in order to introduce them to a healthy consumption of alcoholic beverages (better than starting drinking cheap vodka on the street at night). In most European countries the legal age for drinking alcohol is 18, but restaurant and bar owners usually tolerate this kind of situations. I can't imagine the same situation happening in an American restaurant. I don't know, maybe we are too permissive in Europe.


My parents would give us a little bit of beer with lunch on Saturday, a little wine with Sunday dinner, a little bit of whatever the grown-ups were drinking at family celebrations (which is illegal, of course, but I can't see the police breaking into houses to interfere with how people raise their own children)...and that worked exactly the way you suggest: when we got to the age where for our friends, alcohol had the appeal of the forbidden, it wasn't a big deal for us.

That said, I didn't realize you had drinking ages in Europe at all. It used to be 18 here, actually (well, in some states). What happened was an organization called Mothers Against Drunk Driving convinced enough of Congress that raising the drinking age would solve drunk driving (which is of course absurd) that Congress passed legislation withholding Federal highway funding from any state where the drinking age was less than 21...so they all fell into line.


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## xrtn2

Brazil and Uruguay


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## aubergine72

The famous singer Montserrat Caballe recently was in a big legal trouble for declaring Andorra her residence while in reality she was found to live in Barcelona thus not paying taxes in Spain.


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## Penn's Woods

xrtn2 said:


> Brazil and Uruguay


Wait, what? A border? On the Borders thread?!


----------



## volodaaaa

italystf said:


> Yes, we EU citizens can enter all Balkan countries except Kosovo with ID only.


It is even recommended to put forward only ID while visiting Kosovo due to stamp dispute between Kosovo and Serbia.


----------



## El Tiburon

italystf said:


> Sometimes American laws and traditions really amaze me. :lol:
> It's usually the pioneer country in new technologies (most things nowadays are invented there), but it still teachs creationism in some schools. In Italy, that is aroud 90% Catholic, nobody would ever think to teach creationism at school.


Catholics believe that evolution is consistent with Scripture and that science and religion are not at odds with each other. Certain protestant denominations, specially in the U.S., believe in a strict and literal reading of the Bible., and those are the ones that push for the teaching of creationsim.



> In some US states, consensual homosexuality and ****\oral sex in heterosexual couples were illegal until as late as 2003 (and now, many protests against Putin...)


In some states uunatural and lascivious acts, adultery and cohabitation are still illegal, but those laws are no longer enforced.



> They have ridiculously strict alchool laws that forbide anyone under 21, not only to drink, but also to enter some places where alchool is served. It's also illegal to drink in the street, even without creating any nuisance.


There was alcohol prohibition here in the 1920's and the current high drinking age gives alcohol the "allure of the forbidden fruit" to teenagers. Ironically, in Cuba, where there is a totalitarian and highly oppressive and repressive communist diciatorship, the only freedoms allowed are with respect to alcohol consumption and sale (probably to keep people's brains numb and away from thinking about how to free themselves from the Castro family's grip). 



> They have "anti-loitering" laws, that allow to arrest someone just for standing suispiciously in a place.


I don't know about other states, but in Florida, the loitering law is strict and requires evidence that a crime was committed or is about to be committed.



> But nobody can be prohibitted to buy freely as many firearms as he likes and carry around wherever he wants.


It's not like that. Convicted felons, people charged with crimes, mental incompetents, drug addicts, illegal aliens, domestic abusers, etc. are not allowed to buy or own firearms. Decent people can freely buy firearms though if they buy 5 handguns within 5 days, the shop has to report it to the government. Dealer sales are subject to a background check but private sales are not in most states. Each state has a list of places where you cannot carry firearms. Almost all state issue permits to carry concealed firearms and most states allow open carrying, but all have restrictions on where the guns can be carried. Americans highly value their rights under the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, something that most European countries don't have. And, the Americans gun-purchasing habits has a direct and positive effect in the economy of the Brescia area in Italy:lol:


----------



## El Tiburon

Penn's Woods said:


> My parents would give us a little bit of beer with lunch on Saturday, a little wine with Sunday dinner, a little bit of whatever the grown-ups were drinking at family celebrations (which is illegal, of course, but I can't see the police breaking into houses to interfere with how people raise their own children)...and that worked exactly the way you suggest: when we got to the age where for our friends, alcohol had the appeal of the forbidden, it wasn't a big deal for us.


That's how my parents did and I never found alcohol alluring or "cool".


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Kanadzie said:


> Ah again it's that bastard Schmitz! Every time I'm driving in Europe it's always Schmitz blocking my way! :lol:


Schmitz is very popular in all ex-communist countries,and in Germany too.


----------



## volodaaaa

What do you think? Is revision of Schengen Agreement possible due to attacks in France?


----------



## Penn's Woods

El Tiburon said:


> How can you "know them oh so well" when most European governments heavily restrict or ignore their citizens' right to keep and bear arms?
> 
> In the United States, Americans "know them oh so well" and that's why they like them so much and why European companies have so much share in the U.S. gun market.


Okay, here you lose me.

This American doesn't like guns.

It's disgraceful that nothing changed (federally) after Newtown. The NRA should be ashamed of itself.


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## Penn's Woods

El Tiburon said:


> Were they bought legally or illegally in the black market?


Black market.

(Yes, I know we're off-topic...I just got up and am catching up.  )


----------



## Penn's Woods

g.spinoza said:


> Ok. All I'm saying is that maybe a 250-years-ago law is not current material any more.
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't think so. I loathe guns.


It's our Constitution. It's not easy to amend, and that's generally a good thing. (For one thing, it gives us a level of freedom of expression that is unknown anywhere, anywhere else.)

Repealing the Second Amendment would not, I hope we can agree, prevent criminals from using guns. But gun control is possible and desirable (and necessary) even with the amendment in place. The Supreme Court has said so. Anyone who circulates the myth about Americans being able to buy arms and carry them wherever they want hasn't been paying attention. Gun control laws do exist in parts of the U.S. and have been found to be Constitutional.

And anyone who...well, I've already said what I think about "xenophobic bullshit."

PS: I've never been to a gun show and I don't see that changing. :cheers:


----------



## Penn's Woods

Eulanthe said:


> Speaking of the Guadiana bridge, did all Seville->Faro traffic really go across the ferry there? I can't imagine such a busy route being ferry-only...


Back OT (thank you for your patience):

If you read older posts on this thread, you'll find that crossing the Spanish-Portuguese border wasn't encouraged under Franco. So maybe it hasn't been busy all that long.


----------



## Penn's Woods

volodaaaa said:


> What do you think? Is revision of Schengen Agreement possible due to attacks in France?


I've seen suggestions of that. How easy is it to revise: would every country need to agree, do some of them have a lot of "process" for that sort of thing, and so on...?


----------



## MattiG

volodaaaa said:


> What do you think? Is revision of Schengen Agreement possible due to attacks in France?


Of course, it is.

But the Schengen Agreement is overrated in this context. The EU is the body to guarantee the free movement, not the Schengen agreement. The S.A. is more or less a set of procedures to make things easier.

For example, the Schengen Agreement has changed virtually nothing for me. Joining the EU was much bigger step, because that allowed me to join the EU Citizens' queue in Heathrow, and saved a lot of time. Even before the EU membership, the authorities very seldom were interested in Finns at the European borders. If I recall, I was once stopped at the Denmark/Germany border at the motorway, and once in Genève while entering Switzerland from Ferney-Voltaire.

- Good morning Sir
- Good morning.
- Can I have your passports please.
- Here you are.
- What is your purpose to enter Switzerland?
- We are having our holidays.
- What is your destination?
- Helsinki.
(silence)
- Welcome to Switzerland, Sir.


----------



## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> It's our Constitution. It's not easy to amend, and that's generally a good thing.


I agree, but I think Constitutions should not be _impossible_ to amend either. Italian Constitution was written "only" 70 years ago and it already starts to feel its age: the historical framework in which it was conceived was completely different. Most of the things are general principles, so they're still valid, but some things should be adjusted to current times. I never read the American Constitution, but I guess some things aren't so good for today.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Chris et al. - just in case your trigger finger is getting itchy on the delete button - is it a lot of trouble to just move interesting OTs to Roadside Rest?


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ both threads are among the most active in Highways & Autobahns. If you merge posts, they will mess up the previous discussions in either thread.


----------



## Penn's Woods

All right. Spinoza, Tiburon and whoever else, perhaps whoever wants to continue this can take it to Roadside Rest.

:cheers:


----------



## Penn's Woods

It's not international borders unless you count air travel, but, this just in:

http://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/jl9740.aspx

Restrictions on Americans traveling to and bringing goods back from Cuba are being eased starting tomorrow.


----------



## pai nosso

Eulanthe said:


> Speaking of the Guadiana bridge, did all Seville->Faro traffic really go across the ferry there? I can't imagine such a busy route being ferry-only...



This bridge was built in 1991!! And before the construction of this one the closest crossing was 55 Km north.


This one: :lol::lol:








Source: Panoramio
Location: click here


After the fall of the dictatorship in Portugal (1974) and in Spain (1975/6) there was border crossings and they were all made by ferry, even a railroad station was made alongside the ferry (click here) (built in 1940) 1200 meters next to the main city railroad station.



In 2009, the E.U. financed another border crossing, the Pomarão Bridge located about 35 Km north of the Guadiana Bridge (click here) 









Source: http://portugalfotografiaaerea.blogspot.pt/2011/05/pomarao.html
Left: Portugal
Right & Dam: Spain


----------



## x-type

MattiG said:


> Of course, it is.
> 
> But the Schengen Agreement is overrated in this context. The EU is the body to guarantee the free movement, not the Schengen agreement. The S.A. is more or less a set of procedures to make things easier.
> 
> For example, the Schengen Agreement has changed virtually nothing for me. Joining the EU was much bigger step, because that allowed me to join the EU Citizens' queue in Heathrow, and saved a lot of time. Even before the EU membership, the authorities very seldom were interested in Finns at the European borders. If I recall, I was once stopped at the Denmark/Germany border at the motorway, and once in Genève while entering Switzerland from Ferney-Voltaire.
> 
> - Good morning Sir
> - Good morning.
> - Can I have your passports please.
> - Here you are.
> - What is your purpose to enter Switzerland?
> - We are having our holidays.
> - What is your destination?
> - Helsinki.
> (silence)
> - Welcome to Switzerland, Sir.


i never do that. for instance, i remember when i flought from Graz to Sardinia. entering Slovenia:
-Hello, can I get your passports?
-Sure.
-Where do you travel to?
-(thinking a bit) Vienna.
-Thank you, bye.

explaining him details of the trip? no thanks


----------



## Penn's Woods

"Flought"? Flew.

Sorry, I don't like to do that. But it sounded funny.

:cheers:


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Roadside Rest, or Chris and/or Road_UK will get ornery. More likely Road_UK.

:cheers:


----------



## GROBIN

x-type said:


> i never do that. for instance, i remember when i flought from Graz to Sardinia. entering Slovenia:
> -Hello, can I get your passports?
> -Sure.
> -Where do you travel to?
> -(thinking a bit) Vienna.
> -Thank you, bye.
> 
> explaining him details of the trip? no thanks


In 2012, I made a bike trip from Chochołów (PL) to Zadar (HR).

I crossed 3 Schengen borders:
- Chochołów (PL) / Suchá Hora (SK): nobody bothered us.
- Komárno (SK) / Komárom (H): an argue with a Slovak driver and ... an immediate stop at the Komárom Tesco to buy drinks and paprika sausages 
- Rédics (H) / Lendava (SLO): at last normal prices in Euro and a language I can understand much easier than Hungarian :lol:

... and then non/extra Schengen borders, for all of which my French ID card was sufficient. 3 different experiences:
1) Lendava (SLO) / Mursko Središće (HR):
1-a) on the Slovenian side, a very serious, absolutely Soviet-style customs officer. No hello, no goodbye.
1-b) on the Croatian side, another Soviet-style customs officer. His question: "Kuda putujete" (where are you travelling) made me want to answer "none of your business ..." However, I was so tired because of the trip that I only answered "do Zagrzebia" ... in Polish. He let us go.

2) Maljevac (HR) / Velika Kladuša (BIH):
2a) On the Croatian side, a quick look at my ID and nothing more.
2b) On the Bosnian side ... a very nice girl as a customs officer. I am pretty confident if I had no girlfriend we could have got to know each other a bit better !  She asked me a couple of questions, but out of curiosity. It was funny: me with a French ID, she asking me questions in Bosnian and I replying to her in Polish.

3) Lohovo (BIH) / Nebljusi (HR):
- On the Bosnian side: 2 Bosnian customs officers that were very nice to me when I started speaking Polish (again!) to them. I spent around 10 minutes just talking to one of them. However, the other stopped a car with Serbian license plates and started opening every single of its door ...
- On the Croatian side: one young customs officer. He started speaking ... German to me when he saw my French ID. I replied to him in Polish (my German is very bad). Then he loudly shouted "SPEAK ENGLISH!!!" ... and when he saw my angry/surprised face ... he suddenly started to smile to me and told me that I have to go uphill for quite a few kilometers .......

My conclusion? I DEFINETLY prefer Schengen borders.


----------



## OulaL

volodaaaa said:


> What do you think? Is revision of Schengen Agreement possible due to attacks in France?


It is, but would that help? There is a huge population of islamistic extremists in France to begin with.


----------



## Suburbanist

Schengen has other implications as well, such as common visas for foreigners. It allowed many smaller EU countries to close several consular sections in certain areas of the World, as these are now provided by some EU Schengen partner.


----------



## Suburbanist

Penn's Woods said:


> So if intra-Schengen border controls existed, they might have been stopped. (Or the Jewish Museum shooter from Brussels might not have made it to Marseille.)


A determined person could easily cross walking over some farm tracks, just take a look in Google Maps how porous the French-Belgian border is. 

The French-Spanish border is a bit more easy to protect due to the Pyrenees, but even so, it could be evaded by a small group of determined fit young people, unless you are talking of militarizing the border and building fences. Then multiply this policy for all 27 member-states and the stupidity becomes ever more apparent. All an end of Schengen would do is waste a lot of resource on useless government bureaucracy, and hundreds of millions of passenger-minute delays at crossing points. Which was exactly why Schengen was implemented first place. 

Even at airports such controls are not easy, because it would require renovations on many terminal and, again, staffing them with immigration officials. 

The only reasonable measure I can conceive is Advanced Passenger Information whereas airlines send data about passengers to security services of each country involved (interconnected throughout the EU), so that a person on some database can be "flagged" if he/she buys a ticket and can then be located and/or questioned and/or arrested depending on their legal situation of course.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Most illegal immigants enter EU in Greece by travelling on the sea,not by land.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Suburbanist said:


> Free movement of EU citizens predates, and is not conditioned, to Schengen agreement.
> 
> EU citizens can freely go to UK or Ireland for visits. That they are checked doesn't follow they don't have a right to travel there (work is a bit different from newer member state citizens) for business, leisure, studying. They can also freely enter or exit Iceland, Switzerland and Norway.
> 
> It would be a stupid thing for France to spend billions of € every year to re-open and control all land borders. It wouldn't still prevent other EU citizens from crossing it. Unless they wanted to severely hamper flow of commuters or commerce in big metro border regions like Lille, Strasbourg, Metz, Nice-Monaco, Annemasse, they would need certainly more than 100 land crossings and sufficient manpower on all of them to prevent queues. If the goal is to stop jihadists, this money is better spend sending French officers to help Greeks and Bulgarians patrol the Turkish border, or to help Spanish and Italians to patrol the Mediterranean narrows.



You're probably right. I was asking questions, really...thinking out loud. And it's not my business anyway.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Duly noted.
> 
> Which brings up the famous Venn diagram:
> 
> http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5215/5509980924_8227fac906_b.jpg
> 
> :nuts: (and I realize it's out of date)


Things got complicated:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Supranational_European_Bodies-en.svg/800px-Supranational_European_Bodies-en.svg.png


----------



## Penn's Woods

Oy. But Guam seems a stretch. (Besides, it's ours.  )


----------



## Suburbanist

Penn's Woods said:


> You're probably right. I was asking questions, really...thinking out loud. And it's not my business anyway.


I'm just answering.

Why do people get so defensive on this Highway forum anyway? This sub forum community looks much more stressed out than others on SSC like Railways or Airports. 

It is a forum, people can ask, answer and also give unsolicited opinions or post information or other materials on subjects here.


----------



## Corvinus

bogdymol said:


> Schengen area = EU
> - UK & Ireland
> - Romania, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Croatia
> + Norway, Iceland, Switzerland


+ *Liechtenstein*

.. which joined very recently, only after Switzerland. So there was a period with CH member and FL not, thus the CH-FL border becoming a Schengen external border. 
This created the somewhat absurd situation that CH was suddenly to control travellers entering from FL, whereas virtually no person controls were carried out on this border before.
Anyway, CH somehow managed to satisfy Brussels without implementing border facilities at the CH-FL border (the fact that FL does not accept air travellers from outside Schengen, so anybody entering _from _FL must have entered FL from a Schengen state before, was certainly helpful). 

A report from 2008 on the issue, with mobile camera monitoring mentioned as a possibility:
http://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/schengen-aussengrenzen-befinden-sich-im-inland/586502



> Der Schweizer Zoll hofft auf eine Kompromisslösung, die nicht eine vollständige Schengen-Aussengrenzkontrolle wäre: "Sonst müssten wir tatsächlich an den Übergängen Zollanlagen bauen."
> 
> Möglicherweise werde eine Überwachung mit Kameras genügen, mit systematischer Auswertung. Das alles sei sehr aufwendig und koste viel mehr, als man bisher je an dieser Grenze ausgegeben habe.


----------



## GROBIN

Suburbanist said:


> Free movement of EU citizens predates, and is not conditioned, to Schengen agreement.
> 
> EU citizens can freely go to UK or Ireland for visits. That they are checked doesn't follow they don't have a right to travel there (work is a bit different from newer member state citizens) for business, leisure, studying. They can also freely enter or exit Iceland, Switzerland and Norway.
> 
> It would be a stupid thing for France to spend billions of € every year to re-open and control all land borders. It wouldn't still prevent other EU citizens from crossing it. Unless they wanted to severely hamper flow of commuters or commerce in big metro border regions like Lille, Strasbourg, Metz, Nice-Monaco, Annemasse, they would need certainly more than 100 land crossings and sufficient manpower on all of them to prevent queues. If the goal is to stop jihadists, this money is better spend sending French officers to help Greeks and Bulgarians patrol the Turkish border, or to help Spanish and Italians to patrol the Mediterranean narrows.


Whatever some nationalists within Europe may think, punctual road blocking during a police operation is much more efficient than reestablishing border crossings. Or tell me how thousands and thousands of people cross extra-Schengen borders illegally.
They don't want to open the Schengen zone to Romania and Bulgaria, but before these countries entered the EU, criminals went out of these countries anyway, legally or not ! Even the nowadays Iron Curtain between the EU and the "Russian world" isn't well guarder nor well fenced... not to mention the Ceuta / Melilla borders with Morocco.
Furthermore, as someone mentioned above, the terrorists that attacked in France (and previously in Belgium, in the U.K., etc.) were locals. So you can close all the borders you want (even between the Île-de-France region and Picardy or between Flanders and Wallonia), this will not guarantee your security.


----------



## Verso

Corvinus said:


> + *Liechtenstein*
> 
> .. which joined very recently, only after Switzerland. So there was a period with CH member and FL not, thus the CH-FL border becoming a Schengen external border.
> This created the somewhat absurd situation that CH was suddenly to control travellers entering from FL, whereas virtually no person controls were carried out on this border before.
> Anyway, CH somehow managed to satisfy Brussels without implementing border facilities at the CH-FL border (the fact that FL does not accept air travellers from outside Schengen, so anybody entering _from _FL must have entered FL from a Schengen state before, was certainly helpful).


And it was kind of funny that there were still full controls on the Liechtenstein-Austrian border, even though you could've avoided it through Switzerland (no control at the FL-CH border and only customs control at the CH-A border).


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> And it was kind of funny that there were still full controls on the Liechtenstein-Austrian border, even though you could've avoided it through Switzerland (no control at the FL-CH border and only customs control at the CH-A border).


I think that there were technically controls on the FL-CH border - as mentioned above, cameras were installed on the border. But similarly to Andorra, San Marino and the Vatican City, the need for identity checks were pretty much eliminated by the lack of air access to those states. As I recall, FL also has very strict laws surrounding residency, so it wasn't much of a problem to control the border by camera. On the subject of blocking, GROBIN is right - random road blocking at any point at any time is far more useful than establishing border crossings in the EU. Border crossings can be easily bypassed without problems, but it's much harder to escape random controls. I've seen quite a few random border checks in Poznań train station - and quite a few Ukrainians led away in handcuffs.


----------



## eucitizen

I think it is just hysteria, now the media are concentrated on terrorists, soon they will concentrated on Greece elections. 
Btw an interesting thing is that Czech republic is one of the biggest producer of methamphetamine, so sometimes Czech custom and police officers make random controls on some routes from Poland to Czech republic. The simply fact is that in Poland it is simple to buy pills against cough that have ephedrine, that because you don't need there a recipe to buy them. So now the business is that couriers go to Poland and buy lot of pills and then go back to Czech republic, where they extract the ephedrine and then produce the drug. Germany and Czech republic are pushing Poland to change the situation, so that the pills can be bought only if you have a correct medical recipe and with a maximum of few boxes. It worked in Czech republic and Slovakia.


----------



## Verso

I've never taken fake medicines, they can kill you.


----------



## John Maynard

Eulanthe said:


> On the subject of blocking, GROBIN is right - random road blocking at any point at any time is far more useful than establishing border crossings in the EU. Border crossings can be easily bypassed without problems, but it's much harder to escape random controls. I've seen quite a few random border checks in Poznań train station - and quite a few Ukrainians led away in handcuffs.


Yes, and annoying to normal citizens way away from the border :bash:.

By the way, why Poland do not open its borders to Ukrainians Slavic neighbors fleeing war?


----------



## Eulanthe

John Maynard said:


> Yes, and annoying to normal citizens way away from the border :bash:.
> 
> By the way, why Poland do not open its borders to Ukrainians Slavic neighbors fleeing war?


It might be annoying, but it's far less annoying than having to wait several hours on the border. As for Poland opening the border, why? Most of Ukraine is stable and safe - there's no reason to open the border. Poland has started to evacuate ethnic Poles, but ordinary Ukrainians - there's just no need.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ but if UA is stable and safe, then you can open border. If it is insanity then you need to close so it doesn't spill in


----------



## Penn's Woods

Penn's Woods said:


> ! That's good to know. Mine's probably a bit too old. I'll have to dig it out.
> 
> EDIT (post digging-out). It's not too old. But not by much. Good for 10 years starting March 2005, so I'd need a new one anyway. I thought U.S. passports were good for 20 years.


Quoting myself because I just realized this means I can't go to Europe at the moment. (Since I don't have a passport that will be "valid for at least three months after the date _ intend to leave.") Some of you will be glad to know that._


----------



## Singidunum

Poland is bound by Schengen Agreement so it can't legally do such a thing as open an external EU border.


----------



## John Maynard

What happens to the Ukrainians who are caught in Poland, are they directly expelled?

As a matter of fact, Schengen borders are very permeable when it comes to non-European, non-Christian, fleeing war Southern "refugees". And Ukrainians are Europeans, mostly Christians, Slavic as Poles are, fleeing war neighbors "refugees" (if you take into consideration the same criteria as for the others, we can say that they are many "safe and stable places" prior to EU too even sometime their own country :lol


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ but if UA is stable and safe, then you can open border. If it is insanity then you need to close so it doesn't spill in


If war and refugees were to get to the Polish border, which isn't very likely, I don't think a border post is going to be much help.


----------



## John Maynard

GROBIN said:


> Whatever some nationalists within Europe may think, *punctual road blocking during a police operation is much more efficient than reestablishing border crossings*. Or tell me how thousands and thousands of people cross extra-Schengen borders illegally.





Eulanthe said:


> *On the subject of blocking, GROBIN is right - random road blocking at any point at any time is far more useful than establishing border crossings in the EU*. Border crossings can be easily bypassed without problems, but it's much harder to escape random controls. I've seen quite a few random border checks in Poznań train station - and quite a few Ukrainians led away in handcuffs.


So basically, you support a police state hno:.

The fact is that the efficiency of these controls is close to zero, contrary to a proper border station were you can get caught at any time, no matter how prepared you are. Actually, organized crime and smugglers are way smarter than these random checks: they send a “scout" car or more a few kilometers ahead to spot such road blocks and controls, alerting them to reroute if it’s the case :bash:. The famous “go fast” drug cartels that cross Europe on powerful cars full of drugs or weapons at high speed in nearly total impunity thanks to Schengen.

For my part, I had a very embarrassing misadventure last summer: I was on holiday in France and used to go to the beach, a few kilometres away from the place I was staying. Having foreign plated vehicle, I was stuck almost every time in one of these random customs controls - 30 kilometers from the border - I was shelled with very unpleasant and dull questions like the 10’000 Euros and very personal issues, IDs, vehicule permit, trunk opening, drug dogs, scrutinising me and my car in every detail > just to go the beach :lol:, I felt like I was crossing border to Russia :nuts:!

Furthermore, I traveled across Europe long before Schengen, and couldn't recall of any “hours waiting” on the border (in Western Europe). As for Switzerland, very few things have changed: border stations and checks haven’t disappeared, and they never was “hours waitings”. I think you are giving too much importance to Schengen .


----------



## alserrod

OK and South America... two airports in the Iguazu falls (Brazil and Argentina), just 15 km away


----------



## x-type

alserrod said:


> OK and South America... two airports in the Iguazu falls (Brazil and Argentina), just 15 km away


we are talking here about airports few hunderds of meters far from border lines


----------



## Warsaw spectator

Flughafen Heringsdorf


----------



## alserrod

x-type said:


> we are talking here about airports few hunderds of meters far from border lines


Melilla, for instance

https://www.google.es/maps/place/Me...4m2!3m1!1s0xd77058d93ac5ced:0x40463fd8ca1c650


(by the way, Melillan citizens have a 50% reduction flying to mainland but sometimes they prefer to cross the border and go 40 km away to Nador for a RYR flight, quite cheaper)


----------



## alserrod

and, by the way... one of the most well-known airports world-wide











It is not only just besides the beach in one side but besides the border France-Netherlands in the other side.

The French airport in the same island is obviously near the border too... but not so much as this one


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^OT, but I asked a few days ago in Roadside Rest and no one answered: Are Melilla and Ceuta on Spanish or Moroccan time?

ON topic. I can't believe they let planes come in that close to people on a beach.


----------



## MichiH

^^ It's CET.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melilla


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^OT, but I asked a few days ago in Roadside Rest and no one answered: Are Melilla and Ceuta on Spanish or Moroccan time?


Sorry, I didn't read it. All Spain has CET except Canary Islands (CET-1). Therefore, time difference within Ceuta/Melilla and Morocco.


----------



## italystf

According to the Italian press, Croatia will aplly to Schengen membership on 1st July 2015 and will actually join in early 2016.
http://ilpiccolo.gelocal.it/trieste...ia-in-schengen-agli-inizi-del-2016-1.10730616
Seriously? Or 2016 is the date when Croatia will apply to join Schengen?


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Why not ?
I think that is unfair for Romania and Bulgaria,because they are longer in EU then Croatia and they are still not in Schengen.


----------



## pasadia

As far as I know there is no set date for anybody to join Schengen. So probably Croatian government only *hopes* to join in 2016.


----------



## Eulanthe

pasadia said:


> As far as I know there is no set date for anybody to join Schengen. So probably Croatian government only *hopes* to join in 2016.


Croatia hopes so, but I'm almost certain we won't see Croatian entry until the issue of Bulgaria and Romania is resolved. I suspect that the new EU policy of demanding progress in problematic areas in exchange for Schengen membership will stay here - which is no bad thing. Certainly, until Croatia sorts out some international border crossings, Schengen should definitely not apply.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Maybe Croatia can have Greece's spot. :jk:


----------



## aubergine72

^^

Judging by their economy, it looks like it.


----------



## italystf

Are there still border (both land or sea) disputes between HR and SLO or were they fully solved before HR joined EU?
I've read that there are still border disputes between HR and BiH, along the Sava river (HR-Repubilc of Sprska) and on the coast around Neum (HR-Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina).


----------



## LMB

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Why not ?
> I think that is unfair for Romania and Bulgaria,because they are longer in EU then Croatia and they are still not in Schengen.


Is Croatia as corrupt as Romania and Bulgaria?


----------



## italystf

LMB said:


> Is Croatia as corrupt as Romania and Bulgaria?


http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results

However, corruption is not the only criterion to accept a country in Schengen. Adequate border infrastructure and high security on the outer Schegen border are also of a primary importace.
From what I understood reading in this thread, Croatia has still a porous border with Bosnia, with many areas practically uncontrolled. Romania and Bulgaria seem having already upgraded border controls on the outer border (with Ukraine, Moldova and Turkey) but still EU is unsure to admit them in Schengen because there are many Romanians and Bulgarians going to Western Europe (and some of them cause troubles).


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

LMB said:


> Is Croatia as corrupt as Romania and Bulgaria?


As far as i heard Croatia is most corrupted country in EU,but that doesn't have to be true .


----------



## pasadia

For Roumania the biggest problem was on coruption, expecially high-level coruption. This seems to be resolved on the last 2-3 years, but still is uncertained if UE will recognive the progres.

Of course I, as roumanian, have some doubts about the continuing improvment on justice after Schengen entry, so I'm not that eager to be inside Schengen zone. Not while this objective is puting pressure on our politicians.


Also there are rumours about a big coruption file which is waiting to be brought out in public. It'a about contracts made with EADS for securing roumaniang border in 2003-2009, contracts that came along with big bribes for our high level politicians. It should be fun to watch.


----------



## g.spinoza

I recently was put in charge of meteorological experiment in Raškovice, Czech Rep., near the borders with Slovakia and Poland... I foresee a nice trip to the tripoint


----------



## MattiG

John Maynard said:


> You may probably achieve the 95 km/h average speed on the few motorways that Finland counts, but no way on the 1+1 trunk roads, though general speed limit is 100 km/h, but many (if not majority) stretches are 80 km/h, with local limits sometime down to 50-60 km/h, even outside built-up areas.


Trust me. I live here.

There a only a few spots where a trunk road enters a built-up area. The average speed of 95 km/h is pretty easily achievable outside the most dense areas. 

A 1+1 road in the North is a totally different thing from a 1+1 road in the Central Europe.


----------



## John Maynard

MattiG said:


> Trust me. I live here.
> 
> There a only a few spots where a trunk road enters a built-up area. The average speed of 95 km/h is pretty easily achievable outside the most dense areas.
> 
> A 1+1 road in the North is a totally different thing from a 1+1 road in the Central Europe.


Yes, it possibly can be achieved when driving over the speed limit at 120-130 km/h :devil:.

Maybe it's different, though you must distinct North of Finland too, which is very different from the Central and Southern part in terms of traffic and population density.
Actually, there is a clear lack of a motorway/expressway between Sweden and South of Finland, especially on the coastal area in-between, where major cities are located, and traffic is dense. Taking about Sweden, almost the entire route to the Finnish border in Tornio is an 2+1 - 2+2 expressway; but it's only 1+1 normal road in Finland for almost the entire path, in spite of having bigger towns on its way hno:.

Swedish-Finnish border in Haparanda-Tornio:


----------



## Penn's Woods

I imagine most people trying to get from the heavily populated areas of Sweden to the heavily populated areas of Finland go by boat?


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> I imagine most people trying to get from the heavily populated areas of Sweden to the heavily populated areas of Finland go by boat?


There's a shopping mall in the area where they accept either Swedish coins and Euro (Finnish) and time is in two clocks always with Swedish and Finnish time

(guess the store and... thus, guess in which side of the border they are)


----------



## verreme

Penn's Woods said:


> I'm lost. Is Gibraltar in Schengen?


Of course not. What was intended to do is a part of the terminal to be free to travel for these entering it from Spain _and_ flying anywhere else in Spain. Other movements, including entering the other part of the airport, would require to get through a border check.


----------



## alserrod

And there was a Madrid-Gibraltar for two or three years (yeah, a new terminal for only three years). Passengers from Madrid to Gibraltar had to have a custom control either in Madrid and in Gibraltar. Passengers from Madrid to La Linea didn't have any kind of control


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> And there was a Madrid-Gibraltar for two or three years (yeah, a new terminal for only three years). Passengers from Madrid to Gibraltar had to have a custom control either in Madrid and in Gibraltar. Passengers from Madrid to La Linea didn't have any kind of control


Flights never started to La Linea, the infrastructure on the Spanish side of the border was never built. Madrid-Gibraltar flights did start (and finish) as you said - but there was never a flight to La Linea. All the Madrid-Gibraltar flights were international (and non-Schengen). To cut a very long story short - Spain didn't build the infrastructure on the Spanish side to allow passengers the ability to fly from x to La Linea without entering Gibraltar. It was supposed to be something similar to Geneva Airport and the French sector - but it didn't happen.. The two theories I know is that - 1) Malaga Airport were very unhappy at the thought of competition and 2) Loads were so poor on the Madrid-Gibraltar service that Spain didn't see the point in building the terminal.


----------



## alserrod

Of course there is not a new airport, it is the same with a refurbished terminal.

We could find old posts about works when they were going on.

And situation was quite similar to Mulhouse and Geneva, for instance (but quite smaller, of course)


----------



## bogdymol

/get back on-topic
/delete the off-topic
/close the thread

Decisions... decisions. It's up to you what will happen next :|


----------



## timis2

Border between Bulgaria and Romania.
Bulgarian side ,Silistra.

the second fence is the border.

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.115...m4!1e1!3m2!1sVqiUZ4HAHRyJ5ruLFqvwIw!2e0?hl=bg

closer

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.119...m4!1e1!3m2!1srH_pLR3uDSaVLlgSWGRXJQ!2e0?hl=bg

Romanian side

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.109...m4!1e1!3m2!1sZjbo0LvzmUig6j3nrN7Fyw!2e0?hl=bg

second, highest fence is the border.


https://www.google.com/maps/@44.110...m4!1e1!3m2!1sZEiVqeTin2pgzp2jX5HIfQ!2e0?hl=bg


bulgarian side, Romania on the right.

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.083...m4!1e1!3m2!1sw1q-dNUJLs5-XdmA0r9AQA!2e0?hl=bg


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

*Presevo border crossing (SRB-FYROM)*


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> The international border crossings thread has been unlocked for more than a day.


There you go! Remember, only border crossings, for other topics there's always The Roadside Rest Area.

Incidentally, this is where they built a garage so small the French snowplunger didn't fit in .


----------



## alserrod

That place is not located "there" but "here"

More or less where the "France" signal.
It is a really shoddy work, prepared for winter machines for both sides of the pass (both countries)

I uploaded a picture about it I think.

BTW, between the region of Aragon and Aquitaine and Aragon and Midi-Pyrénées there are two border passes where in both sides roads are managed by regional government, not French or Spanish governments. In both cases, the same entreprises manages maintenance in the two countries


----------



## Eulanthe

Mods, is the discussion about Gibraltar Airport and the binational nature of it on-topic? I found out some more information about it, but I don't want this thread to be locked!


----------



## volodaaaa

Old border crossing and ferry between Austria and Slovakia (Angern an der March - Záhorská Ves)














































The border checks are obviously gone, but the ferry was not in operation at the time of my visit due to high flood level of Morava/March river. The transport costs 2 € for a driver and 1 € for an adult.

MAP


----------



## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> Mods, is the discussion about Gibraltar Airport and the binational nature of it on-topic? I found out some more information about it, but I don't want this thread to be locked!


I do not moderate this forum but if you want to glance a Spanish thread about it, just PM me. It is an 100% ontopic thread (only about infrastructure, operations) and it's a long time it doesn't have movement.


----------



## Eulanthe

Voladaaa - was that border crossing limited to A/SK nationals before 2004? It seems ridiculously overbuilt for a small river crossing...


----------



## volodaaaa

Eulanthe said:


> Voladaaa - was that border crossing limited to A/SK nationals before 2004? It seems ridiculously overbuilt for a small river crossing...


It was opened on 1st May 2001 for EU, Czech republic and Slovak citizens. The set of countries were expanded one year later to citizens of all countries in the world that did not need to have visa to enter Slovak republic. Essentially, it was replacement of a bridge bombed in 1945. The border crossing (obviously) still operates in certain hours in a day.


----------



## Moravian

volodaaaa said:


> It was opened on 1st May 2001 for EU, Czech republic and Slovak citizens. The set of countries were expanded one year later to citizens of all countries in the world that did not need to have visa to enter Slovak republic. Essentially, it was replacement of a bridge bombed in 1945. The border crossing (obviously) still operates in certain hours in a day.


Anyway, it is the westmost point of Slovakia. I am not sure if there will be new bridge one day. There is still a lack of road connection across Morava/March river. One bridge for pedestrians and bicycles in Bratislava and one bridge between Hohenau and Sekule. And maybe in future there will be the motorway bridge between S8.at and A4.sk.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

volodaaaa said:


> Old border crossing and ferry between Austria and Slovakia (Angern an der March - Záhorská Ves)
> The border checks are obviously gone, but the ferry was not in operation at the time of my visit due to high flood level of Morava/March river. The transport costs 2 € for a driver and 1 € for an adult.
> 
> MAP


We have Morava river in Serbia too.


----------



## Moravian

^^ Yes....And there was the question where had been the center of Greater Morava....(off topic)....Both rivers are the tributary of Danube......Morava/March/Morva is the bordering river between Austria and Slovakia, and there was the iron curtain.....The heritage is the lack of road connections.....


----------



## pai nosso

*Portugal / Spain*

*International Bridge of S. Marcos/Paymogo (built in 2012):*









Source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/110820471?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com









Source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/67310901?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com









Source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/110697877?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com

Location: Click here


----------



## bogdymol

Did you know that many years ago Romania and Poland were bordering? Today that's the border between Romania and Ukraine. Here's a picture from that time:










Border between Romania and Austro-Hungarian Empire, nearby town of Predeal (now a ski resort in central Romania):


----------



## Alex_ZR

bogdymol said:


> Did you know that many years ago Romania and Poland were bordering?


Yes I knew. And also Romania and Czechoslovakia.


----------



## AsHalt

Well if you want ,whole of Europe is a border with certain countries at one time. WWII & WWI ,The Crusades and so on...
(Just a thought)


----------



## alserrod

Poland written in Romanian instead of Polish?


----------



## Moravian

Alex_ZR said:


> Yes I knew. And also Romania and Czechoslovakia.


Yes, on the peak of Stoh, currently the border between Ukraine and Romania there is the former tripoint among Czechoslovakia, Poland and Rumania.....Before 1939 it was the mosteast point of Czechoslovakia......After that there was shortly the border between Hungary and Poland....On the other hand at Myslowice in Poland there is former tripoint among Germany, Austria and Russia.......before 1914.


----------



## Aokromes

pai nosso said:


> Source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/110697877?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com
> 
> Location: Click here


I wonder why they don't made it a bit higher


----------



## bogdymol

Because the costs would have been a lot higher.


----------



## Nikkodemo

*¡¡Tijuana a la vista!!*


Highway to Mexico, U.S.A. by CSI Pete, on Flickr


Highway to Mexico, U.S.A. by CSI Pete, on Flickr


----------



## NordikNerd

*Finland will intensify the surveillance of it's eastern borders.*

The finnish Border Control Authority is being granted more money due to a change in the security environment.

This appropriation is intended to develop the technical supervision of the russian-finnish border in South-East Finland, North Karelia and in the eastern Gulf of Finland. 

The supplementary budget proposed the Border Control Authority a 1.9 million EUR of additional appropriations.

- Contrary to a year ago the situation for Finland's security environment has changed fundamentally, so an additional appropriation is justified. The coverage of the eastern borders must be enhanced urgently to maintain a credible and independent border patrol.


----------



## italystf

Nikkodemo said:


> *¡¡Tijuana a la vista!!*
> 
> 
> Highway to Mexico, U.S.A. by CSI Pete, on Flickr


You're really messed up if you miss that exit and you don't have the passport with you.
Why "watch for stopped vehicles?"


----------



## alserrod

I guess they can be queues


----------



## Penn's Woods

italystf said:


> You're really messed up if you miss that exit and you don't have the passport with you.
> Why "watch for stopped vehicles?"


Re not having a passport, there must be infrastructure at the border post to permit people to make U-turns, even if you have to come up to the booth and then they say to turn around.

Re "watch for stopped vehicles," Alserrod's got it: lines at the customs booths. You'll occasionally see "Watch for stopped vehicles" in other situations where, well, where free-flowing freeway traffic may suddenly stop. Toll booths, construction zones....


----------



## Palance

italystf said:


> You're really messed up if you miss that exit and you don't have the passport with you.


That's why those warning signs are for.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Actually, I think you may be able to go to border cities like Tijuana without one.

DISCLAIMER: Before anyone yells at me for being wrong, note the wording, "I think."


----------



## alserrod

I remember in some high-traffic motorways in Spain the signal "last exit in Spain" even if no passport booths were ahead.

I suppossed it was prior to taking out those booths but they have another function... a judge can "retire your passport". This is, even if there are no passport control, as a measure, he can say that you are not allowed to quit the country for a while.

Providing there are some major cities quite boundary... it is not unuseful at all.

(obviously in these kind of few traffic roads, they have non-sense. If you really have forbidden to quit the country and you see a "Portugal" sign... you make a U-turn and learn to program better your gps...)


----------



## x-type

Penn's Woods said:


> Re "watch for stopped vehicles," Alserrod's got it: lines at the customs booths. You'll occasionally see "Watch for stopped vehicles" in other situations where, well, where free-flowing freeway traffic may suddenly stop. Toll booths, construction zones....


in european we say it like this:










the beauty of american traffic signs


----------



## volodaaaa

Btw. i am just curious: Ireland uses American-style signs while UK uses European like. I've been googling and streetviewing the situation, especially at frontier regions, and have not found a single a single sign informing about it. There are places without checks and at one point you've got a classic Euro-sign and few meter away you get American diamond.


----------



## riiga

^^ Both are valid in the Vienna Convention, so there really isn't any need to inform.

EDIT: Allow me to illustrate, these are all allowed:


----------



## bogdymol

I've been in Ireland last week and drove there almost 1200 km in 2 days. I saw both European and American style signs, but you get used with them straight away.


----------



## volodaaaa

riiga said:


> ^^ Both are valid in the Vienna Convention, so there really isn't any need to inform.
> 
> EDIT: Allow me to illustrate, these are all allowed:


I have forgotten American style would be "curve left" instead of arrow


----------



## Kanadzie

bogdymol said:


> I've been in Ireland last week and drove there almost 1200 km in 2 days. I saw both European and American style signs, but you get used with them straight away.


Yeah, arrow left, road going to left, you should turn left :lol:


----------



## Protteus

Penn's Woods said:


> Re not having a passport, there must be infrastructure at the border post to permit people to make U-turns, even if you have to come up to the booth and then they say to turn around.
> 
> Re "watch for stopped vehicles," Alserrod's got it: lines at the customs booths. You'll occasionally see "Watch for stopped vehicles" in other situations where, well, where free-flowing freeway traffic may suddenly stop. Toll booths, construction zones....


Actually there is a last "U - Turn" just in case you've messed up with all the exits, but there's no signage for it, and the custom officers may ask you
of your repentance.
The most remarkable thing to say is when you mess up with all the exits and
you're not planing to go to Tijuana and you are CARRYING guns (Permited in
US but NOT in México) at that moment, you just not messed up the exits,
you screwed up .

Ok this is the Last US exit marked on the pic, and the orange line is the 
temporary deviation of the entrance to Mexico, till the US goverment builds
up the permanent deviation of the I-5.


----------



## John Maynard

NordikNerd said:


> The finnish Border Control Authority is being granted more money due to a change in the security environment.
> 
> This appropriation is intended to develop the technical supervision of the russian-finnish border in South-East Finland, North Karelia and in the eastern Gulf of Finland.
> 
> The supplementary budget proposed the Border Control Authority a 1.9 million EUR of additional appropriations.
> 
> - Contrary to a year ago the situation for Finland's security environment has changed fundamentally, so an additional appropriation is justified. The coverage of the eastern borders must be enhanced urgently to maintain a credible and independent border patrol.


And what for? Will there be able to stop all the Russian Army there in case of an "invasion", I mean tanks, missiles, jets, incoming troupes, etc. and not only some "refugees"? Or is it just to justify another trash spending to maintain fatty officials, instead of investing money in more urgent matters that their country desperately need, like per ex. roads and infrastructures?

Despite of already having THE most surveilled Schengen border in all EU for years, Finns have a perverse pleasure to keep the Iron Curtain alive, which they never abandoned even after 1991 :bash:.
Even the most extremist American patriots would ever dream of :wallbash:.


----------



## alserrod

Maybe the most surveilled EU border is Morocco-Spain (and sadly, remains)


----------



## Road_UK

Have you got any figures on that? Because I don't think this is true.


----------



## alserrod

Road_UK said:


> Have you got any figures on that? Because I don't think this is true.













Left, Spain, right, Morocco


----------



## Road_UK

Bulgarian-Turkish border. The fence is 30km long...


----------



## Motorways

Road_UK said:


> Bulgarian-Turkish border. The fence is 30km long...























































































































































I believe that the diference between one and the other it's pretty clear. i do not think that there is anything like that (luckly) in any other EU country, besides maybe Cyprus.


----------



## tonttula

John Maynard said:


> And what for? Will there be able to stop all the Russian Army there in case of an "invasion", I mean tanks, missiles, jets, incoming troupes, etc. and not only some "refugees"? Or is it just to justify another trash spending to maintain fatty officials, instead of investing money in more urgent matters that their country desperately need, like per ex. roads and infrastructures?
> 
> Despite of already having THE most surveilled Schengen border in all EU for years, Finns have a perverse pleasure to keep the Iron Curtain alive, which they never abandoned even after 1991 :bash:.
> Even the most extremist American patriots would ever dream of :wallbash:.


You really do seem to be taking issue with this. :lol: 
They received 4,9 million euro extra funding back in 2013 and that number was expected to ramp up every year with the increase in border crossings. Problems in Russia no doubt have had its impact on this. Why the yearly extra funding was made flexible. 

Infrastructure for security per se on the border hasn't been sucking funding past years, but the increased traffic between the two countries that was increasing around 8-10% per year. There were also preliminary plans for the possible visa free travel between Finland and Russia back in 2013, that would have exploded the amount of border crossings. In 2013 extra funding was used to cut queues by hiring more people, new technical equipment and opening new border crossing spots.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

Road is in the US, field is in Canada.


----------



## italystf

tonttula said:


> There were also preliminary plans for the possible visa free travel between Finland and Russia back in 2013, that would have exploded the amount of border crossings.


Is this allowed by Schengen regulations? I mean, if Russians are required to get a visa to enter the Schengen area, allowing them to travel visa-free to Finland means allowing them visa-free in the whole Schengen area. It would create a hole in the Schengen outer border.


----------



## Capt.Vimes

Road_UK said:


> Bulgarian-Turkish border. The fence is 30km long...


A new, 82km long border fence will be constructed between the border crossings Kapitan Andreevo and Lesovo.. It will be four times more expensive and will not look like the current one, it will be much more solid. There will also be more thermo vision cameras.

source in Bulgarian


----------



## John Maynard

italystf said:


> Is this allowed by Schengen regulations? I mean, if Russians are required to get a visa to enter the Schengen area, allowing them to travel visa-free to Finland means allowing them visa-free in the whole Schengen area. It would create a hole in the Schengen outer border.


^^ They are some exceptions for the locals on both side living in between and traveling for a maximum 50 km radius from the EU border, as they can be illegible for a visa free crossing under certain conditions. If these non-EU are caught traveling beyond the permitted 50 kilometers, they can be punished with a five-year ban on entering the EU.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/poland-and-russia-test-visa-free-travel-a-847828.html



tonttula said:


> You really do seem to be taking issue with this.
> They received 4,9 million euro extra funding back in 2013 and that number was expected to ramp up every year with the increase in border crossings. Problems in Russia no doubt have had its impact on this. Why the yearly extra funding was made flexible.
> 
> Infrastructure for security per se on the border hasn't been sucking funding past years, but the increased traffic between the two countries that was increasing around 8-10% per year. There were also preliminary plans for the possible visa free travel between Finland and Russia back in 2013, that would have exploded the amount of border crossings. In 2013 extra funding was used to cut queues by hiring more people, new technical equipment and opening new border crossing spots.


Yeah .
And that's good, but it hasn't answered the matter :lol:.

Withal, after the EU sanctions against Russia, thousands of Russians are rushing and filling their trunk with EU products in Finland every day; which they say to be "much cheaper than in Russia". Even people from Leningrad are coming for weekly shopping. They seem to enjoy the "Putin cheese" and the products that have been banned by the Kremlin, even the "Finnish fish is better than Russian fish." :lol::nuts:.
And waiting hours on border for that :bash:.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29049601


----------



## alserrod

Between Spain-Morocco, people in both countries who live near the border can cross it without passport, just ID card, for a day and in both directions but just only to move within several kilometres (inside Spain obviously the whole cities, inside Morocco I think 100 km). For the rest, passport

But the problems aren't Moroccan citizens at all. The problems come from people who have travelled among half Africa (or from Middle East) and wanna enter inside the EU.


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> Between Spain-Morocco, people in both countries who live near the border can cross it without passport, just ID card, for a day and in both directions but just only to move within several kilometres (inside Spain obviously the whole cities, inside Morocco I think 100 km). For the rest, passport
> 
> But the problems aren't Moroccan citizens at all. The problems come from people who have travelled among half Africa (or from Middle East) and wanna enter inside the EU.


It shouldn't be a problem, as there are controls between the two Spanish exclaves and mainland Spain.


----------



## italystf

John Maynard said:


> ^^ They are some exceptions for the locals on both side living in between and traveling for a maximum 50 km radius from the EU border, as they can be illegible for a visa free crossing under certain conditions. If these non-EU are caught traveling beyond the permitted 50 kilometers, they can be punished with a five-year ban on entering the EU.
> 
> http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/poland-and-russia-test-visa-free-travel-a-847828.html
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah .
> And that's good, but it hasn't answered the matter :lol:.
> 
> Withal, after the EU sanctions against Russia, thousands of Russians are rushing and filling their trunk with EU products in Finland every day; which they say to be "much cheaper than in Russia". Even people from Leningrad are coming for weekly shopping. They seem to enjoy the "Putin cheese" and the products that have been banned by the Kremlin, even the "Finnish fish is better than Russian fish." :lol::nuts:.
> And waiting hours on border for that :bash:.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29049601


I wonder how they can determine where exactly the 50km zone ends.

Those people going west to buy things impossible to find in their country remember a lot a past chapter of European history.


----------



## OulaL

alserrod said:


> I remember in some high-traffic motorways in Spain the signal "last exit in Spain" even if no passport booths were ahead.


On the motorway between Sweden and Denmark also.

That is because of the toll, though, which is about €50 - quite a "fine" for just missing an exit. Not only the warning of the last exit, the amount of the toll is also signposted before that exit.


----------



## MattiG

italystf said:


> Is this allowed by Schengen regulations?


No, and such a thing is not in a pipeline.

The visa policy is subject to mutual agreement between EU and Russia. No Schengen country can implement an individual policy to override the EU policy.

However, any visa waiver decision would have a major impact to the arrangements at the Finnish-Russian border due to a major increase in traffic volumes. Because of the current political climate, I do not believe any major change will take place in the near future.


----------



## Eulanthe

Actually, individual countries may negotiate on local border traffic. The EU is actively encouraging such schemes, as can be seen with the PL-RU/UA agreements.


----------



## -Valentino-

I love USA / CANADA border; beautiful!


----------



## Road_UK

Because???

Welcome by the way. You dislike French road signs, you asked about German speed limits (which I answered), and you love the USA/Canada border. Know a lot about you already, what do you know about Europe?


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Be nice.

Valentino, this is Road_UK. He's a local character and one of my favorite people here.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Eulanthe said:


> Actually, individual countries may negotiate on local border traffic. The EU is actively encouraging such schemes, as can be seen with the PL-RU/UA agreements.


But how does that work, though? If Finland permits Russians within 50 km o the border, but they're not allowed without a visa in the rest of Finland or in many other EU countries, does that mean Finland is systematically carrying out what are really border controls 50 km into its territory? Or at least on public transportation and cars with Russian plates? Not picking on Russians, just because that's the most recent example on this thread....


----------



## Penn's Woods

Perhaps Valentino is Autoputevi kan Hobi's Canadian cousin. :jk: :troll:


----------



## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Be nice.
> 
> Valentino, this is Road_UK. He's a local character and one of my favorite people here.


I was being nice, I was getting to know him


----------



## MichiH

^^^^ Much better than Pascal's cousin....... Try to stop thinking about Road_UK's one....


----------



## italystf

OulaL said:


> On the motorway between Sweden and Denmark also.
> 
> That is because of the toll, though, which is about €50 - quite a "fine" for just missing an exit. Not only the warning of the last exit, the amount of the toll is also signposted before that exit.


There's "_ultima uscita in Italia_" signposted at Tarvisio exit on A23, but it's written only in Italian.


----------



## italystf

Penn's Woods said:


> But how does that work, though? If Finland permits Russians within 50 km o the border, but they're not allowed without a visa in the rest of Finland or in many other EU countries, does that mean Finland is systematically carrying out what are really border controls 50 km into its territory? Or at least on public transportation and cars with Russian plates? Not picking on Russians, just because that's the most recent example on this thread....


People caught without visa outside the 50km strip will be banned to enter EU for the next 5 years.


----------



## italystf

Eulanthe said:


> Actually, individual countries may negotiate on local border traffic. The EU is actively encouraging such schemes, as can be seen with the PL-RU/UA agreements.


OK with the 50km border zone, but can a Schengen country allow visa-free travel in *its whole territory* to nationals who require visas for the Schengen area? I don't think so. So the Finnish proposal to estabilish a visa-free travel agreement with Russia would be void.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^I understand that, but how likely are they to be caught?


----------



## italystf

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^I understand that, but how likely are they to be caught?


Routine road controls, maybe.
Before 2013 Croats could visit Italy, Slovenia and Hungary with ID only, but they needed the passport for the rest of EU. However nothing prevented them to travel to other Schengen countries without passport, but they would have been arrested if caught.
Russia and Belarus recently removed border controls between each other but they didn't estabilish a common visa policy, so a foreigner needs two visas to visit those two countries. In theory you can cross into the other country without the proper visa, but if caught, you will be arrested.


----------



## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^I understand that, but how likely are they to be caught?


They're not. Once they're in Schengen they can do what the hell they want. Same with US citizens who are limited to 50 miles into Mexico or Baja California only...


----------



## -Valentino-

Road_UK said:


> Because???


It's the world's longest and most peaceful border  Also when you enter there are large welcoming signs with flags and other information


----------



## Road_UK

Just like on pretty much all European border. Lots of love to go around


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Yes, but ours is longer.


----------



## Road_UK

We've got more...


----------



## John Maynard

Road_UK said:


> They're not. Once they're in Schengen they can do what the hell they want. Same with US citizens who are limited to 50 miles into Mexico or Baja California only...


Never say never. Actually, customs can control you in the entire EU territory without any cause or reason, whenever they want. I was myself "harassed" many times by them last summer when going to the beach, just because I was on Swiss plates and near another EU country border :lol:. Though, these controls are too petty to catch significantly the offenders of any kind whatsoever.



italystf said:


> It shouldn't be a problem, as there are controls between the two Spanish exclaves and mainland Spain.


Basically, it's just ashamedly silly and nonsense to put all these fences and heavily armed border guards there :lol:.
Maybe, they are "protecting" Ceuta and Melilla (the two Spanish Enclaves in Morocco) against a Moroccan "invasion". But then, UK's Gibraltar should also "protect" his territory by installing enormous barbed wire and 24h armed guards against a Spanish "invasion" :lol::nuts:.
-----------------------------

Moreover, all EU border looks more like the previous Berlin Wall these days with even more technological nightmares, or the Israel-Palestine Wall :nuts:.
It's also isolate and destroy the ties and sometime the true friendship between peoples that were living there for centuries before this "fortress" came by, because some EU bureaucrats in Brussels decided so without any democratic basis :bash:. 
Don't they see that they are just rebuilding the Iron Curtain in a similar way :wallbash:?

Add to that extremely stupid EU visa policies, that have as consequence that my neighbor and friend living 5 km away need a visa to come see me, but a thousand miles away Honduran - THE country with the most homicides in the world (20 times more than the USA!), very politically unstable, and an international drug turntable and center - can travel visa free in the whole EU! :nuts::bash:


----------



## italystf

John Maynard said:


> Never say never. Actually, customs can control you in the entire EU territory without any cause or reason, whenever they want. I was myself "harassed" many times by them last summer when going to the beach, just because I was on Swiss plates and near another EU country border :lol:. Though, these controls are too petty to catch significantly the offenders of any kind whatsoever.
> 
> 
> Basically, it's just ashamedly silly and nonsense to put all these fences and heavily armed border guards there :lol:.
> Maybe, they are "protecting" Ceuta and Melilla (the two Spanish Enclaves in Morocco) against a Moroccan "invasion". But then, UK's Gibraltar should also "protect" his territory by installing enormous barbed wire and 24h armed guards against a Spanish "invasion" :lol::nuts:.
> -----------------------------
> 
> Moreover, all EU border looks more like the previous Berlin Wall these days with even more technological nightmares, or the Israel-Palestine Wall :nuts:.
> It's also isolate and destroy the ties and sometime the true friendship between peoples that were living there for centuries before this "fortress" came by, because some EU bureaucrats in Brussels decided so without any democratic basis :bash:.
> Don't they see that they are just rebuilding the Iron Curtain in a similar way :wallbash:?
> 
> Add to that extremely stupid EU visa policies, that have as consequence that my neighbor and friend living 5 km away need a visa to come see me, but a thousand miles away Honduran - THE country with the most homicides in the world (20 times more than the USA!), very politically unstable, and an international drug turntable and center - can travel visa free in the whole EU! :nuts::bash:


Ceuta and Melilla border fences are probably built also for Spanish showoff: "we work hard to protect our country from the African\Arab\Muslim\terrorist invasion." hno:
There's a big difference between the Iron Curtain and the outer Schengen border, despite the similar appearance.
Iron Curtain was built to prevent citizens of the Eastern Bloc to migrate abroad. East European citizens were treated as prisoners, slaves, by their dispotic regimes. The Iron Curtain represents the failure of the communism, because, if walls were required to keep their people inside, it means that life under communism was really a hell.
The outer Schengen border, instead, don't prevent anybody to travel if he has proper documents. It's aimed to stop illegal immigration, drug, illegal trade,... The abolition of border controls within Europe has, as side effect, the creation of a "fortress" with the outside.


----------



## John Maynard

italystf said:


> Ceuta and Melilla border fences are probably built also for Spanish showoff: "we work hard to protect our country from the African\Arab\Muslim\terrorist invasion." hno:


I really think that Morocco should regain these lands hno:.

As for terrorists, never heard of "illegals" planning and putting bombs or assaulting in EU. They were all with proper national EU papers, even born in the EU and having national EU citizenship :nuts::bash:. 

Most of all, they are many EU nationals and legal residents that are now "emigrating" to fight among and as terrorists hno:.
And which many of them are the "core" of these terrorists organizations in Syria and Irak hno:.


italystf said:


> There's a big difference between the Iron Curtain and the outer Schengen border, despite the similar appearance.


Actually, they are even worse then the previous one :nuts:.


italystf said:


> Iron Curtain was built to prevent citizens of the Eastern Bloc to migrate abroad. East European citizens were treated as prisoners, slaves, by their dispotic regimes. The Iron Curtain represents the failure of the communism, because, if walls were required to keep their people inside, it means that life under communism was really a hell.


Emigration of the elite and highly skilled persons - which they needed desperately - was their main problem, and they tried by all mean of repression and oppression to keep them in their hand, fortunately communism have failed in Europe 25 years ago.
By the way, they are people behind the "EU Curtain" that lives in an oppressive regime - like Russia, and are desperate to flee in EU. it's another senselessness of this "fortress" :bash:. The difference is that back then, Western Europe would had welcome them and protect them, now they are turning their backs on them.


italystf said:


> The outer Schengen border, instead, don't prevent anybody to travel if he has proper documents. It's aimed to stop illegal immigration, drug, illegal trade,... The abolition of border controls within Europe has, as side effect, the creation of a "fortress" with the outside.


Ironically, same can be said when the Iron Curtain was in place :lol:.

The "European fortress" term was invented by the Nazi's, it was a plan to fortify the whole of Europe - plans that were concretized by the EU itself. An appealing idea taken up by the EU bureaucrats :nuts:.


----------



## Laurentzius

John Maynard said:


> I really think... trololol...


Why the wanton hysterics? The EU external border fences and the Iron Curtain have as much in common with each other as an ordinary fence surrounding a private property and a prison fence have, aka the mere appearance. You claim to be a great lover of democracy, so instead of trying to demonize others with ludicrous argumentum ad Hitlerum, why don't you ask for an EU wide referendum on softer border controls? We all know you'd resoundingly lose, that's why you're trying to accuse the others of being undemocratic and Nazi-lite.


----------



## italystf

John Maynard said:


> I really think that Morocco should regain these lands hno:.


Why? Those areas have been Spanish for centuries and are inhabitated by Spanish people. They don't want to be part of Morocco and they will became refugees if Morocco annex them. Morocco should accept the fact, it can be a sovereign country even without Ceuta and Melilla. It's like Switzerland claimed its sovereignity over Campione d'Italia and Buesingen.



John Maynard said:


> Emigration of the elite and highly skilled persons - which they needed desperately - was their main problem, and they tried by all mean of repression and oppression to keep them in their hand, fortunately communism have failed in Europe 25 years ago.
> By the way, they are people behind the "EU Curtain" that lives in an oppressive regime - like Russia, and are desperate to flee in EU. it's another senselessness of this "fortress" :bash:. The difference is that back then, Western Europe would had welcome them and protect them, now they are turning their backs on them.


Those fleeing communism were asylum seekers and Western Europe welcomed that for that reason. Migrants from non-war torn developing countries, like Morocco or Tunisia are economical migrants, and they can reside in Europe only if they meet certain requirements, such a permanent job and a house. Come on, the USA, Canada and, especially, Australia, have stricter rules than EU on that!
Now nobody stop a Russian, Turk, or Moroccan to get a touristic visa and visit Western Europe. He just go to the embassy, pay and follow the standard procedure. Before 1989 for Warsaw Pact countries citizens it was totally impossible, except with particular permits given only to those well connected with the party.



John Maynard said:


> Ironically, same can be said when the Iron Curtain was in place :lol:.


Yes, the "antifascist protection wall". :lol: Everybody knew that the "antifascist protection" was just a political excuse to inprison their citizens within their countries.



John Maynard said:


> The "European fortress" term was invented by the Nazi's, it was a plan to fortify the whole of Europe - plans that were concretized by the EU itself. An appealing idea taken up by the EU bureaucrats :nuts:.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law :lol:


----------



## John Maynard

italystf said:


> Why? Those areas have been Spanish for centuries and are inhabitated by Spanish people. They don't want to be part of Morocco and they will became refugees if Morocco annex them. Morocco should accept the fact, it can be a sovereign country even without Ceuta and Melilla. It's like Switzerland claimed its sovereignity over Campione d'Italia and Buesingen.


But at the same time, Gibraltar have been British for more than 300 years and is inhabited by British people, but the Spanish government is putting pressure and want to swallow it into his own territory against the will of the Rock inhabitants. It's funny, because Morocco also want to "repossess its territories" just a few kilometers away :nuts:.
By the way, Crimea was inhabited by Russians for centuries and still is, until some Soviet bureaucrats decided in 1954 to attach it to the Ukrainian SSR for paperwork reason :lol:.

As for Büsingen and Campione d'Italia, Switzerland never had any territorial claims for them. Quite the contrary, these two enclaves petitioned Switzerland for annexation on several occasions, even with referendums (per ex., in 1918 Büsingen voted at 96% to join the Swiss Confederation), but this was rejected due to the Swiss desire to maintain neutrality :lol:.


italystf said:


> Those fleeing communism were asylum seekers and Western Europe welcomed that for that reason. Migrants from non-war torn developing countries, like Morocco or Tunisia are economical migrants, and they can reside in Europe only if they meet certain requirements, such a permanent job and a house. Come on, the USA, Canada and, especially, Australia, have stricter rules than EU on that!
> Now nobody stop a Russian, Turk, or Moroccan to get a touristic visa and visit Western Europe. He just go to the embassy, pay and follow the standard procedure.


Same as those fleeing "Putinism" repressive regime :lol:.
But, as said earlier these are not welcome to the "West" anymore.

No way, USA do not have anything like "EU Curtain", only a "light and cheap" mostly not barbed barrier, which doesn't even cover the Mexican border, but parts of it.
They were never interested to build another Berlin Wall or Iron Curtain, unlike the EU.
Furthermore, Canada nearly doesn't have any fences nor barriers on his border, and Australia none.


italystf said:


> Before 1989 for Warsaw Pact countries citizens it was totally impossible, except with particular permits given only to those well connected with the party.


That's not entirely true. I know that hundred of thousands Polish people - not necessarily related to the communist party - were having holidays "in the West" during the 1970's and 1980's. Many were returning yearly. Certainly, it needed an official authorization to "go to the West", but it wasn't too difficult to obtain, if you fulfilled all the papers (and you weren't a criminal). The Government also provided 100 USD pocket money (a considerable sum for Poles at that time) to those traveling to the West.


italystf said:


> Yes, the "antifascist protection wall". Everybody knew that the "antifascist protection" was just a political excuse to inprison their citizens within their countries.


You should now that they built it to protect themselves from a Western "invasion" and illegal immigrants-emigrants, terrorists and spies :nuts:. Now EU is "imprisoning" its own people as well :lol::bash:.


italystf said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law


It is also written in the link you provided that "Godwin's law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship" :lol:.

Indeed, the EU politics and bureaucrats could earn at least 3 Godwin's point on that:
1) Using and wide-spreading a Nazi term "word to word" and idea.
2) Putting it into effect and concretizing it.
3) Using propaganda and publicity for it. :nuts:
Apparently, they are perfidiously recognizing some virtues to Hitler and his Third Reich :lol:. Which, by the way, many ideas were taken and applied after WWII.

Anyway, why this "law" is only applying for nazi Germany, and not Stalinism/Maoism and all the totalitarian states/regimes as well :bash:?


----------



## CNGL

John Maynard said:


> Anyway, why this "law" is only applying for nazi Germany, and not Stalinism/Maoism and all the totalitarian states/regimes as well :bash:?


In Spain there is a variation of this law thanks to our politicians sons of a b: The longer a discussion goes on, more probable is that someone will say the topic is ETA (the terrorist group everyone knows).

Anyway, this is again off-topic. We should go back before this thread gets deleted.


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## John Maynard

*A little "timeout"*

On the famous US-Mexico border, some illegals immigrants tried to drive over the border fence with a SUV:

















The news title was: "illegal immigrants get stuck trying to drive over U.S.-Mexico border fence".
They did not bother to cross the border illegally, but from there to build an illegal highway over it to bring their car with them :lol:.


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## Kanadzie

haha, they high-centred it, but surprised they weren't able to... jump on the hood and make it work

I really really like the idea and give them A for effort

of course it makes basically no sense to take a car out of Mexico, in Mexico a used car is worth double what it costs in the US...


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## italystf

John Maynard said:


> But at the same time, Gibraltar have been British for more than 300 years and is inhabited by British people, but the Spanish government is putting pressure and want to swallow it into his own territory against the will of the Rock inhabitants. It's funny, because Morocco also want to "repossess its territories" just a few kilometers away :nuts:.


For this reason I agree that Gibraltar should stay British if their citizens want that. Spain should accept it. We're in EU, how can a small British exclave scares Spain? I understand in the past, when the British empire could threat Spain, but now? They can see it like San Marino for us or Monaco for the French.



John Maynard said:


> As for Büsingen and Campione d'Italia, Switzerland never had any territorial claims for them. Quite the contrary, these two enclaves petitioned Switzerland for annexation on several occasions, even with referendums (per ex., in 1918 Büsingen voted at 96% to join the Swiss Confederation), but this was rejected due to the Swiss desire to maintain neutrality :lol:.


Also the Austrian region of Vorarlberg voted to join Switzerland after WWI, but the Swiss refused. Switzerland is probably the only country that refused to annex more land.



John Maynard said:


> Same as those fleeing "Putinism" repressive regime :lol:.
> But, as said earlier these are not welcome to the "West" anymore.


I think "Putinism" has more consent in Russia than the old communism. And expatriating from Russian Federation is easier compared to Soviet Union and its satellite states. It doesn't justify the lack of press freedom, the cheated elections, the corruption, the homophoby that are common in Russia, though.



John Maynard said:


> No way, USA do not have anything like "EU Curtain", only a "light and cheap" mostly not barbed barrier, which doesn't even cover the Mexican border, but parts of it.
> They were never interested to build another Berlin Wall or Iron Curtain, unlike the EU.
> Furthermore, Canada nearly doesn't have any fences nor barriers on his border, and Australia none.


Well, actually only tiny parts of the outer EU border are heavily fortified. Spain-Morocco and Bulgaria-Turkey are like the iron curtain, but for example Croatia-Bosnia is very porous.



John Maynard said:


> Indeed, the EU politics and bureaucrats could earn at least 3 Godwin's point on that:
> 1) Using and wide-spreading a Nazi term "word to word" and idea.


That's sadly true! Adjectives like fascist or neonazi are often abused by pro-EU media to describe anti-EU right wing parties and movement, in order to delegitimate them. Those movements can be called far right, populist, eurosceptic, conservative,... but neonazi is often overkilling.
When neonazi fight against pro-Russians in Ukraine, instead, they became EU's friends. :lol:


----------



## Eulanthe

Everyone! Please, stop with the discussion about politics and so on unless it's directly connected to borders. I'm begging you - this thread is vital for my research, and if it gets locked permanently, it will really be a huge loss. Please?


----------



## LMB

John Maynard said:


> An appealing idea taken up by the EU bureaucrats :nuts:.


How much contact do you have with crossing borders, immigration and the like? Seems little, if you don't know that EU is more liberal than US, Canada or Australia.


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## italystf

LMB said:


> How much contact do you have with crossing borders, immigration and the like? Seems little, if you don't know that EU is more liberal than US, Canada or Australia.


It's true, the USA, Canada and Australia are very reluctant to give access to foreigners convicted even for petty crimes. The EU, instead, is more "liberal" from this point of view, and this is not a good thing for us. We have already our native criminals and we don't need to import more of them.


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## John Maynard

italystf said:


> It's true, the USA, Canada and Australia are very reluctant to give access to foreigners convicted even for petty crimes. The EU, instead, is more "liberal" from this point of view, and this is not a good thing for us. We have already our native criminals and we don't need to import more of them.





italystf said:


> It's true, the USA, Canada and Australia are very reluctant to give access to foreigners convicted even for petty crimes. The EU, instead, is more "liberal" from this point of view, and this is not a good thing for us. We have already our native criminals and we don't need to import more of them.


You seem to confuse immigration policies and actual border "curtaining and isolation". 
While, I agree that USA and Canada have tougher immigration policies than EU, especially for "criminals", they do have quite porous borders and nothing like "border controls everywhere and anywhere" in place in EU :bash:. 
And it's true: EU unlike the US, give "visa-free" pass to anyone from Honduras, one of the most dangerous and criminally ruled country in the world, and to many other "unstable and heavily perilous" countries. Moreover, EU customs don't even ask them question when they arrive :lol::nuts:.


----------



## John Maynard

LMB said:


> How much contact do you have with crossing borders, immigration and the like? Seems little, if you don't know that EU is more liberal than US, Canada or Australia.





italystf said:


> It's true, the USA, Canada and Australia are very reluctant to give access to foreigners convicted even for petty crimes. The EU, instead, is more "liberal" from this point of view, and this is not a good thing for us. We have already our native criminals and we don't need to import more of them.


You seem to confuse immigration policies and actual border "curtaining and isolationism". 
While, I agree that USA and Canada have tougher immigration policies than EU, especially for "criminals", they do have quite porous borders and nothing like "border controls everywhere and anywhere" in place in EU :bash:. 
And it's true: EU unlike the US, give "visa-free" pass to anyone from Honduras, one of the most dangerous and criminally ruled country in the world, and to many other "unstable and heavily perilous" countries. Moreover, EU customs don't even ask them question when they arrive :lol::nuts:.


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## Road_UK

EU customs (especially the French and Germans) even randomly stop and search members from other Schengen countries. Seems you know very little about crossing borders within the EU yourself. You don't even know the difference between customs and immigration control.


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## John Maynard

Road_UK said:


> EU customs (especially the French and Germans) even randomly stop and search members from other Schengen countries. Seems you know very little about crossing borders within the EU yourself. You don't even know the difference between customs and immigration control.


Apparently, you know little which country belongs to Schengen and didn't understood what I was trying to pinpoint icard:.
Also, I was myself controlled by them on many occasions, despite I come from a Schengen country :tongue:.


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## John Maynard

italystf said:


> I think "Putinism" has more consent in Russia than the old communism. And expatriating from Russian Federation is easier compared to Soviet Union and its satellite states. It doesn't justify the lack of press freedom, the cheated elections, the corruption, the homophoby that are common in Russia, though.


Not necessarily, as USSR was much bigger than today's Russia, there are borders that didn't existed back then. Russians always need visas and fulfill all the requirements to "go to the West", so basically "not too much" have changed for them; but it was way easier for a "dissident" (anyone fleeing Eastern Bloc) to find his way here in those times.



italystf said:


> Well, actually only tiny parts of the outer EU border are heavily fortified. Spain-Morocco and Bulgaria-Turkey are like the iron curtain, but for example Croatia-Bosnia is very porous.


Actually, the border is quite heavily surveilled and fenced from Norway to the Balkans. Yet, the last one is composed of countries that are candidate for an EU adhesion, and are working harder and harder to meet the criteria and are closer every year. That may be the reason why their borders are not so strongly guarded (just like Poland in the early 2000's, prior to EU adhesion).


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## Road_UK

John Maynard said:


> Apparently, you know little which country belongs to Schengen and didn't understood what I was trying to pinpoint icard:.
> Also, I was myself controlled by them on many occasions, despite I come from a Schengen country :tongue:.


Really? Quote? Link?


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## John Maynard

Road_UK said:


> Really? Quote? Link?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Schengen_Area_participation.svg


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## Road_UK

I meant quote or link something stating that I don't know anything about Schengen.


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## John Maynard

Well, I am from Switzerland - which belong to Schengen - and you said first that I don't know anything about " crossing borders within the EU" and "between customs and immigration control."
Quote? Link? See, the question is returned.


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## -Valentino-

^^


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## Kanadzie

^^ I don't think that use of "ARRET" is grammatically correct... I think it is just accepted "imperative" because to write proper grammar would take too much letters

Kind of like "NO STEP" written on airplane wings, it makes no sense in English but you need to know, don't step there


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## volodaaaa

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ I don't think that use of "ARRET" is grammatically correct... I think it is just accepted "imperative" because to write proper grammar would take too much letters
> 
> Kind of like "NO STEP" written on airplane wings, it makes no sense in English but you need to know, don't step there


The grammar topic should be definitely created :lol:


----------



## VegasCraig

Singidunum said:


> But isn't it possible to avoid the toll by immediately turning to the old road? http://goo.gl/maps/XkLd9
> 
> 
> 
> How long does it take in total? It seems quite slow if this short stretch takes 24 minutes, what do they inspect so much.
> 
> Also on the video, on the entry to Mexico, did you even show your documents to anyone?



Entry into Mexico is controlled by a random signal; green means go and very rarely a red light will mean you need to stop and show documents and have your vehicle inspected. 

I got a green light so my two companions and I didn't have to produce any documents entering Mexico. 

Returning to the U.S., I noticed that my lane seemed particularly slow. I don't know if there were any issues with the cars in front of me or not, but the other lanes seemed to be moving faster. When it was my turn, the process took about 5 minutes. My American passport card, my friend's American passport, and my other Australian friend's passport were all scanned after asking a few questions about where we visited, what we did, and how we knew each other. My trunk was also briefly inspected. 

My total wait in line was 40 minutes, but traffic was pretty light at that time of day. I used to do this crossing all the time when I lived in San Diego in the 90s, and even then the lines were long but traffic moved much quicker (no passport requirements, etc.)


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## VegasCraig

[atomic] said:


> ^^ is there no ID check at the border?



Nope, only very rare random checks of documentation at the border.


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## Penn's Woods

^^How strange! I don't think I've ever crossed the Canadian border in either direction without showing ID.


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## -Valentino-




----------



## [atomic]

VegasCraig said:


> Nope, only very rare random checks of documentation at the border.


I guess that is only when going to Mexico to the US, but what about tourists and other people that are not US/mexican citizens?


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## -Valentino-

*USA - MEXICO border*


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## John Maynard

^^ I learned that in Mexico it is almost completely illegal / very difficult for a civilian to own a firearm. Despite of that, Mexico is a much more dangerous place than the United States, also the homicide rate is 5 times bigger than the US :shocked:. 
So, I guess that many good American "patriots" would carry their guns with them even if it's illegal, which moreover taking into fact they are almost "never controlled" and it's easy to bribe :nuts:.


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## Road_UK

No no no no no no, no firearms talk on here please. Or metric systems. Or languages.... Don't lock this thread down again.


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## John Maynard

^^ I was not talking of firearm as a debate of gun control, but wanted to point that it seems easy for US citizens/residents to pass the Mexican border with a gun - from the post picture of total ban above. Also, it may be "appealing" for some Americans as it's a quite dangerous place, unlike Canada (or even the US), and shares a large border with the US hno:.
By the way, I never "blocked" any thread on so far :lol:!

For your former reply, here are some links were you can see excise duty within EU:

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/common/travellers/within_eu/index_en.htm

http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/vat-customs/excise-duty/index_en.htm

As I already wrote, these limits are too high for being worth mentioning it. Do you know many individuals transporting privately more than 110 liters of beers and/or more than 90 liters of wine on a single trip? I do not know anyone on this case.


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## Kanadzie

John Maynard said:


> ^^ I learned that in Mexico it is almost completely illegal / very difficult for a civilian to own a firearm. Despite of that, Mexico is a much more dangerous place than the United States, also the homicide rate is 5 times bigger than the US :shocked:.
> So, I guess that many good American "patriots" would carry their guns with them even if it's illegal, which moreover taking into fact they are almost "never controlled" and it's easy to bribe :nuts:.


Yeah, have you seen the kind of insanity passing on the Mexican side of the US border? Overpasses decorated with bodies dangling, that insanity with the teacher-students... I don't think I would want to cross that border even if I had a RPG launcher and Tantal with me :lol::lol:


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## VegasCraig

[atomic] said:


> I guess that is only when going to Mexico to the US, but what about tourists and other people that are not US/mexican citizens?


If you need to declare goods, or need a tourist card, there's a place to stop to self-declare.

In the Baja California area, up until just to south of Ensenada, no tourist card is needed for a 72 hour stay. I assume this covers most crossers at this border-either short term tourists or residents. Those who do pass south of that point must go through a checkpoint where they'll have to show the tourist card they had stamped AT THE BORDER. 

Also, anyone holding a visa for the U.S. is exempt from needing a Mexican visa, according to the page I found on their UK website.

http://consulmex.sre.gob.mx/reinounido/index.php/servicios-a-extranjeros/108

This means that anyone legally in the US can enter Mexico for up to 6 months, regardless of what country they're from. The same 72 hour border-zone exemption to having a tourist card applies also.


----------



## VegasCraig

*Border Fence & Monument along the Pacific*

Border fence stretching into the Pacific Ocean, as seen from the Mexico side.

Taken on February 10, 2015










Boundary marker set in 1894 near the Pacific Ocean. The Spanish language side has been darkened in to make it readable. Until this point, the fence straddles the cement line that goes through the middle of the monument. Here, though, the fence is set back about a yard.


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## x-type

Republica Mexicana? i never heard for that term, i thought it was always Estados Unidos Mexicanos or just México :dunno:


----------



## alserrod

x-type said:


> Republica Mexicana? i never heard for that term, i thought it was always Estados Unidos Mexicanos or just México :dunno:


Quite weird but to my best knowledge... "República de los Estados Unidos de México"
Am I right?


----------



## Alex_ZR

^^ http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituci%C3%B3n_Pol%C3%ADtica_de_la_Rep%C3%BAblica_Mexicana_%281857%29


----------



## volodaaaa

The official name should be "The United States of Mexico" afaik. But it is rarely used in common speech. On the other hand, telling "I am going to US" could be tricky


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## x-type

volodaaaa said:


> The official name should be "The United States of Mexico" afaik. But it is rarely used in common speech. On the other hand, telling "I am going to US" could be tricky


i actually don't like those short forms that are too general. for instance United States. hell no, America is better. or the winner - UK. i know that callin that country (Great) Britain is wrong. we also often call it England (and thinking of whole UK). United Kindgom of Great bla bla is not an option, it's too long. or former Soviet Union. no shit. there was some council that made a union around itself. 
those names like US or UK or USSR would be the same as my name would be Man. or Human.


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## HRHB

In my opinion, the USA borders aren't as interesting as the European ones.
So here you have border Sl. Šamac - (Bos.)Šamac


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## x-type

wow, that is one very interesting border crossing. :drool:


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## HRHB

x-type said:


> wow, that is one very interesting border crossing. :drool:


I think you misunderstood that, the USA shares with just two countries (three, including that small sea part between USA and Russia) the border and that's, for me, rather boring


----------



## Corvinus

Has anyone here experienced land border crossing into the USA as a third-country citizen?
Has anybody crossed as a third-country resident with his own vehicle?


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## DanielFigFoz

Apparently it takes an hour or so, the normal visa-waiver form doesn't apply for land crossings so you have to do it in the office at the border, and it takes a while to process. That of course if you are a citizen of a visa-waiver country. If you have a visa I guess it's less complicated at that point, because you already have the visa.


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## parcdesprinces

Corvinus said:


> Has anyone here experienced land border crossing into the USA as a third-country citizen?
> Has anybody crossed as a third-country resident with his own vehicle?


I did (both)! 

France is (considered today as) a third-World country, right?





:runaway:


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^By "third country," Corvinus meant from a country other than (1) the U.S. or (2) the bordering country. :cheers:


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ My mistake then .
But, but, but keep in mind the fact that the glorious Kingdom of France shares a maritime border with Canada... (approx. 800 miles north of Boston) :cheers:


:colbert:


----------



## Penn's Woods

The French would be "un pays tiers," I think.

But a maritime border with Canada still isn't a border with the U.S.


----------



## parcdesprinces

Penn's Woods said:


> But a maritime border with Canada still isn't a border with the U.S.


Not yet, indeed! :horse::horse:


----------



## Penn's Woods

Maybe Quebec should annex Saint-Pierre....


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ They already tried (I mean the federal Canadian authorities), durind WWII and just after it... 

:gunz:


----------



## OulaL

g.spinoza said:


> Some Latin languages have a distinct adjective to use rather than American: statunitense (in Italian) or estadounidense (in Spanish)


Finnish also, the word is "yhdysvaltalainen", the word that I use myself. "Amerikkalainen" is probably more common, though.


----------



## italystf

Corvinus said:


> Has anyone here experienced land border crossing into the USA as a third-country citizen?
> Has anybody crossed as a third-country resident with his own vehicle?


A friend of mine (Italian passport) was at his friend (Canadian passport) in Montreal and they did a trip to the USA with his car (registered in Canada). They had the passports stamped in both direction, I think, but having an European citizenship shouldn't create a lot of difficulties.


----------



## Corvinus

DanielFigFoz said:


> Apparently it takes an hour or so, the normal visa-waiver form doesn't apply for land crossings


Hm apparently it does:
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1132/~/citizen-of-visa-waiver-country,-wants-to-drive-into-u.s.-from-canada-or-mexico,

So for me, it looks that for Visa Waiver citizens, there are three different "requirement sets" when entering, depending on how exactly you enter:
1) land crossings: no ESTA req'd, seems to be the easiest,
2) air or cruise ship travel: ESTA req'd before travelling,
3) entering by private sailing vessel: ordinary visa req'd, Visa Waiver does not apply.



italystf said:


> A friend of mine (Italian passport) was at his friend (Canadian passport) in Montreal and they did a trip to the USA with his car (registered in Canada). They had the passports stamped in both direction, I think, but having an European citizenship shouldn't create a lot of difficulties.


OK ... this is what I expected.



parcdesprinces said:


> I did (both)!


Thus, you also crossed in your own vehicle? French-registered? Or USA/CDN/MEX registered as a resident of one of these?
... and yes, I wrote "third country" not "third-world country", but easy to mix up if reading fast :lol:


----------



## El Tiburon

Penn's Woods said:


> Can you cross it, though, except on foot?
> 
> My understanding was there's no road between Colombia and Panama.


Lately, mamy Cubans escaping the Castro dictatorship travel to Ecuador (one of the very few people that does not requiere visa from Cuba), from there to Colombia and then, cross the Darien jungle on foot because there is no road.


----------



## John Maynard

Corvinus said:


> Hm apparently it does:
> https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/de...nts-to-drive-into-u.s.-from-canada-or-mexico,
> 
> So for me, it looks that for Visa Waiver citizens, there are three different "requirement sets" when entering, depending on how exactly you enter:
> 1) land crossings: no ESTA req'd, seems to be the easiest,
> 2) air or cruise ship travel: ESTA req'd before travelling,
> 3) entering by private sailing vessel: ordinary visa req'd, Visa Waiver does not apply.


And you see what inequality of treatment we get in exchange - No visa for Americans required at all to come to Europe (EU/Schengen), nor any "waiver" certificate to buy in order to enter - Not to mention that many EU members are required purely and simply to get a visa, even for transit in USA :bash::weirdo:.


----------



## TommyLopez

volodaaaa said:


> Yeah... But I've already heard it from a Czech as well...


^^ In Czech we're mostly using the word Reich for Germany


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

*Romania & Serbia: Iron Gate 1 Hydroelectric power station. Border crossing*





I really like this Hydroelectric power station.


----------



## volodaaaa

TommyLopez said:


> ^^ In Czech we're mostly using the word Reich for Germany


It is possible. I've only heard Czech referring to Reich.


----------



## Verso

What about countries with internal flights? For example, if you fly from Zagreb to Split, do you have to show your documents?


----------



## Eulanthe

It depends on the carrier. Strictly speaking, ID isn't required for intra-Schengen flights - I flew from Berlin to Malaga last week without anyone even looking at my Polish permanent resident's ID card (that I use instead of a passport, it looks pretty much like a normal personal identity card). But many airlines want to see ID to prove that the booked person is travelling, so - hard to say. Probably the best answer is that while there are no border checks, there can be identity checks independent of border control depending on the situation.


----------



## Eulanthe

Just an update on Spain-Gibraltar. The Spanish side of the border (in the direction of Spain) is seeing some building work, although no-one seems to know exactly what is going on. Gibraltar now has three channels available on entry (two green, one red channel), and random passport controls are conducted. Spain is conducting random passport controls on entry and exit. On foot, Gibraltar is stopping people at random (with all non-EU national subjected to immigration controls). The Spanish are also conducting random entry and exit checks. None of the controls seem to be disproportionate, and the frontier is smooth on entry and exit. There are delays on entry to Gibraltar, but this seems to be a combination of only one lane open when exiting Spain combined with Gibraltar entry controls. Either way, it's not terrible right now. Curiously, the EU appears to have told Spain to drop exit controls. Quite where that fits in with the requirement of Schengen to have both entry and exit controls, I'm not sure...


----------



## Road_UK

Eulanthe said:


> Just an update on Spain-Gibraltar. The Spanish side of the border (in the direction of Spain) is seeing some building work, although no-one seems to know exactly what is going on. Gibraltar now has three channels available on entry (two green, one red channel), and random passport controls are conducted. Spain is conducting random passport controls on entry and exit. On foot, Gibraltar is stopping people at random (with all non-EU national subjected to immigration controls). The Spanish are also conducting random entry and exit checks. None of the controls seem to be disproportionate, and the frontier is smooth on entry and exit. There are delays on entry to Gibraltar, but this seems to be a combination of only one lane open when exiting Spain combined with Gibraltar entry controls. Either way, it's not terrible right now. Curiously, the EU appears to have told Spain to drop exit controls. Quite where that fits in with the requirement of Schengen to have both entry and exit controls, I'm not sure...


Gibraltar is not a part of Schengen.


----------



## Luki_SL

The border crossing buildings in Cieszyn Boguszowice (PL/CZ - E75 corridor) are demolished.


Stalone said:


> Burzenie budynków przejścia granicznego w Cieszynie Boguszowicach E75 S1
> 
> 24.02.2015


The Castorama store is planned at this place :









http://wiadomosci.ox.pl/wiadomosc,28592,adv-odpowiada.html


----------



## Road_UK

Ah, French influence on the border....


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> What about countries with internal flights? For example, if you fly from Zagreb to Split, do you have to show your documents?


as far as i remember, on security you should provide ID document. (i am not sure tough because i never did online check in while flying on domestic lines)


----------



## Attus

It's quite funny to speak about domestic flights in the border crossings' thread ;-)
I flew several times inside Germany and was never requested to show any ID.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Luki_SL said:


> The border crossing buildings in Cieszyn Boguszowice (PL/CZ - E75 corridor) are demolished.
> 
> 
> The Castorama store is planned at this place :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://wiadomosci.ox.pl/wiadomosc,28592,adv-odpowiada.html


Castorama? A place to buy beavers? ("castor" is French for "beaver.")


----------



## alserrod

Road_UK said:


> Ah, French influence on the border....


Lol... look at this corner

https://www.google.es/maps/@43.1168...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sRxdBD4QDHGoUVN2TBG6HmA!2e0


----------



## parcdesprinces

Penn's Woods said:


> Castorama? A place to buy beavers? ("castor" is French for "beaver.")


Lol, actually the original name of this DIY retailer chain was "Central Castor" (_central beaver_), the beaver being indeed the emblem of this chain since this animal, as you already know I presume, is well known for being pretty good at DIY, home renovation and construction stuff :yes:.


----------



## blue_man100

some data here...
*Border crossings into USA from both Canada and Mexico, by car, bus, commercial truck and pedestrians.
2013 only*


----------



## x-type

which is the most congested road border crossing between USA and Canada?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Ambassador Bridge - Windsor/Detroit, I believe.

(I'm sure someone has figures.)


----------



## Penn's Woods

parcdesprinces said:


> Lol, actually the original name of this DIY retailer chain was "Central Castor" (_central beaver_), the beaver being indeed the emblem of this chain since this animal, as you already know I presume, is well known for being pretty good at DIY, home renovation and construction stuff :yes:.


Ah. Now I get the connection.


----------



## los77

*Old border crossing - Gołkowice[PL] - Závada [CZ]​*
2012 Concrete pedestal still alive 











In 2015 also.


----------



## blue_man100

x-type said:


> which is the most congested road border crossing between USA and Canada?


 
here is the data, 2013 CY...
from Canada, top US entry ports:

*entries by personal vehicle (cars*)




*buses:*





*commercial trucks:*


----------



## Penn's Woods

I knew I'd heard Detroit somewhere, it must have been for trucks. And I guess they're counting both road crossings there as a single "port of entry."


----------



## blue_man100

*US-MEX border...
San Ysidro, Ca - Tijuana, MX*

*+19 million crossings each year (one way only, only this gate)*


----------



## Penn's Woods

I happened to be in Canada at the time of that ridiculous, brief U.S. Federal government shutdown in October 2013...CBC newscasts had reporters and cameras in Windsor talking about border traffic, although if memory serves, they kept normal staffing levels. (I was briefly worried I might be stuck in Canada. I mean, it's lovely, but it was October and it could start snowing any minute... :jk: My brother actually was in Montreal on 9/11 and couldn't get home for a few days because the borders really were closed.


----------



## Singidunum

Those US statistics don't show number of train entries


----------



## blue_man100

^^
I don't know if there are border crossings of people by train between US and Canada...

I know there aren't crossings between Mexico and US


----------



## Corvinus

blue_man100 said:


> here is the data, 2013 CY...
> from Canada, top US entry ports:


What would be very interesting to see is a breakdown to the personal vehicles' countries of registration - the share of US-, Canadian- and third-country registered vehicles among those which crossed the border.

As for buses and commercial trucks, I guess none from an overseas country ever cross there; what about Mexican and other from Central and South America? Can these occasionally be found up there in the North?


----------



## blue_man100

*US-Mexico border*
Matamoros, MX to Brownsville, Texas
each day thousands of mexican students go to american schools, in bicycle, walking or driving

this is one picture of mine:


----------



## Penn's Woods

blue_man100 said:


> ^^
> I don't know if there are border crossings of people by train between US and Canada...
> 
> I know there aren't crossings between Mexico and US


There is passenger service to Toronto and Montreal at least.


----------



## blue_man100

Corvinus said:


> What would be very interesting to see is a breakdown to the personal vehicles' countries of registration - the share of US-, Canadian- and third-country registered vehicles among those which crossed the border.
> 
> As for buses and commercial trucks, I guess none from an overseas country ever cross there; what about Mexican and other from Central and South America? Can these occasionally be found up there in the North?


 
thousands of mexican buses cross into USA...and american buses into Mexico too...
now, regarding commercial trucks, mexican trucks can go only into the border cities of US....the american unions have been sucessful in putting commercial barriers for mexican drivers...american drivers worry about competition


----------



## Corvinus

^^ Hm maybe it's not only about competition, but also safety and environmental issues w/ Mexican trucks. 
Anyway, my question concerned the USA/CDN border, so you won't really find Mexican trucks crossing that one if they are stuck at US border cities.

How does overland freight between Mexico and Canada work? Do Canadian trucks come down to Mexico, or meet Mexican ones close to the border and transfer the cargo?


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ I think it is mostly by train once you get to that kind of distance just for economics... I see US trucks all the time in Canada, and Canadian all around the northern USA, but Mexican, they are really rare at this latitude...



Singidunum said:


> Those US statistics don't show number of train entries


I never did it but I suspect train into the US works like airplanes - there are US border guards at the airport and once you get past them you are legally "in US" so you have no border check "at the border", instead already you have pre-clearance. (edit apparently this is only done at Vancouver)

As for congested crossings, the ones at Buffalo are pretty bad. But I would make distinction between traffic count and congestion. But especially on long weekends in summer, it can be just horrible. 
I am surprised by the number at "Niagara Falls", surely it must be counting the four different crossings there (Hwy 405/1-190 / Queenston bridge, Peace Bridge at Fort Erie, Whirlpool Rapids bridge) in addition to the actual Niagara Falls Rainbow Bridge...


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^It says Buffalo-Niagara Falls, so it ought to cover everything from the Peace Bridge up (or down, really) to, what 190/405?


----------



## Verso

Corvinus said:


> As for buses and commercial trucks, I guess none from an overseas country ever cross there


Once I saw in Switzerland a bus from Brazil.


----------



## blue_man100

Corvinus said:


> ^^ Hm maybe it's not only about competition, but also safety and environmental issues w/ Mexican trucks.
> Anyway, my question concerned the USA/CDN border, so you won't really find Mexican trucks crossing that one if they are stuck at US border cities.
> 
> How does overland freight between Mexico and Canada work? Do Canadian trucks come down to Mexico, or meet Mexican ones close to the border and transfer the cargo?


 
Oh OK, I misunterstood your question...
and well, regarding Can/Mex overland freight, I don't know too much about it...I'll have to investigate further...
I have seen trucks with canadian legends in mexican roads, but I think these drivers are mexican with canadian freights


----------



## alserrod

BTW, how are train controls MX-US?


----------



## italystf

Penn's Woods said:


> There is passenger service to Toronto and Montreal at least.


I expected there was something between Seattle and Vancouver or San Diego and Tijuana, since there's a lot of interaction between those urban areas.


----------



## italystf

blue_man100 said:


> here is the data, 2013 CY...
> from Canada, top US entry ports:
> 
> *entries by personal vehicle (cars*)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *buses:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *commercial trucks:*


What about pedestrian\bicycle traffic?


----------



## blue_man100

italystf said:


> What about pedestrian\bicycle traffic?


here you go...I guess they include bicycles in this category, but i'm not sure


----------



## italystf

blue_man100 said:


> thousands of mexican buses cross into USA...and american buses into Mexico too...
> now, regarding commercial trucks, mexican trucks can go only into the border cities of US....the american unions have been sucessful in putting commercial barriers for mexican drivers...american drivers worry about competition


Also in Europe there is a similar problem: truckers from Western countries suffer the competition of those from Eastern countries. However, working hours for truckers are the same in all 28 EU countries.


----------



## Penn's Woods

blue_man100 said:


> here you go...I guess they include bicycles in this category, but i'm not sure


Okay, so, what counts as a crossing? Derby Line must get 398 in a day, let alone in a year... Is there a rule that locals don't have to report, or no one has to report until they're outside the built-up area, or....?


----------



## blue_man100

^^
I really don't know :dunno:


----------



## Fatfield

italystf said:


> I expected there was something between Seattle and Vancouver or San Diego and Tijuana, since there's a lot of interaction between those urban areas.


I've crossed the US-Can border on the train whilst travelling from NY to Montreal and back. I've also travelled on the Amtrak service from the US to Toronto but only from Niagara Falls on the Canadian side to Oakville.

There's a rail connection between Vancouver & Seattle (Amtrak Cascades 513) but when I travelled between the two cities in 2005 I went by coach. Not sure why but it was probably a combination of cost/travel time/departure time. We did, however, use the above Amtrak service from Seattle to Portland, OR (fantastic city btw) a few days later.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Seattle and Vancouver are something like 140 miles apart.

San Diego and Tijuana, on the other hand, are more like a single urban area. There's a light rail service between San Diego and the border known as the Tijuana Trolley and has been for a long time; whether it actually crosses the border I don't know. (Closest I've ever been to Mexico is Disneyland.)


----------



## Protteus

alserrod said:


> Auga is a mispelling. The correct word is "agua"
> 
> Should in Mexico doesn't apply a local idiom, "BAJO EL agua" or better "DEBAJO DEL agua".
> More accurate last one.


The photo above is from US side, from Mexican side is even worst, it says:

" *PILEGRO* FIERROS *BATO* DEL *AUGA*"

If you read it in spanish would be like; " DENGAR FERRUM HOMMIES WETAR"
BATO (is a Northern Mexican slang for guy, man, individual, etc.










Back to topic, photos from the new bridge that will link the Tijuana
International Airport, with a new terminal in US side. Photo viewed from
Mexican side.


----------



## pyramidxx

What are "Dangerous Objects Under Water"??? Submarines maybe?? or just propaganda for immigrants??


----------



## Spookvlieger

Half rusted barriers could be one of them...logic thinking


----------



## alserrod

joshsam said:


> Half rusted barriers could be one of them...logic thinking


Enough to get sticked there if you try to cross the border diving or swimming. It is logical to write an alarm message


----------



## volodaaaa

Well, rebars underwater could be dangerous.


----------



## Verso

Would be better to write '_fence_ under water'.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> Maybe to Italians. I'm not aware that fuel was cheap for Yugoslav standards, and Yugoslavia didn't have oil anyway.


Wasn't it also rationed at some point in the 80's?

I've just found this elsewhere on SSC and thought it's worth sharing - 










And I'm shocked - there were unguarded "tourist" crossings for Yugoslavian/Austrian citizens?


----------



## ambioz

Eulanthe said:


> Wasn't it also rationed at some point in the 80's?
> 
> I've just found this elsewhere on SSC and thought it's worth sharing -
> 
> 
> And I'm shocked - there were unguarded "tourist" crossings for Yugoslavian/Austrian citizens?


Hello,
thanks for the vintage photo sharing. 
what does Austrian sign say? 
Seems like opening times?


----------



## Alex_ZR

ambioz said:


> Hello,
> thanks for the vintage photo sharing.
> what does Austrian sign say?
> Seems like opening times?


April 15 - October 15, 6-18h


----------



## ambioz

Alex_ZR said:


> April 15 - October 15, 6-18h


Thanks. Wow, it sounds funny ! 
Although i guess it was no joke in the 80's..


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> And I'm shocked - there were unguarded "tourist" crossings for Yugoslavian/Austrian citizens?


There were tourist crossings on the Italian border as well.


----------



## Fatfield

Britain has introduced checks for those leaving the country today. At the moment its only on ferry and rail exits but it will be fully implemented throughout Britain by June this year.

http://news.sky.com/story/1460561/all-passports-to-be-checked-on-uk-exit


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> There were tourist crossings on the Italian border as well.


Where? Any pic?
AFAIK, local border crossings between Italy and SFR Yugoslavia (1954-1991) or Slovenia (1991-2007) were opened only to local residents (10 km from the border, I think) that were entitled to get a special document (lasciapassare\propusnica).


----------



## los77




----------



## Eulanthe

ambioz said:


> Hello,
> thanks for the vintage photo sharing.
> what does Austrian sign say?
> Seems like opening times?


Only for Austrian and Yugoslavian citizens. 
(no idea about this second part)

And then the opening times. 

I'm just really, really surprised - although Yugoslavs could travel both West and East relatively freely, I know the border was quite strictly controlled. The only thing I can think of is that this is high up on a mountainside and that Yugoslavia monitored the area further down. 

As for the UK exit checks, they're actually not really exit checks. What's happening is that travel companies will scan passports on behalf of the UK Border Force (or whatever they're called today). Uniformed officers will continue to have nothing to do with exit controls, like today.


----------



## Verso

los77 said:


> ...


Interesting location you have: "CunczindorfPasconis Likes (Received): -4". :lol:



italystf said:


> Where?


I don't know, probably on Mount Mangart.



ambioz said:


> Hello,
> thanks for the vintage photo sharing.
> what does Austrian sign say?
> Seems like opening times?


_Nur für den Touristenverkehr österreichischer und jugoslawischer Staatsbürger mit Reisepaß oder Grenzausweis. Übertrittszeit: 15.4 - 15.10. 6h-18h_

Translation:
Only for tourist traffic of Austrian and Yugoslav citizens with passport or border pass. Crossing time: April 15 - October 15, 6 am - 6 pm


----------



## volodaaaa

Verso said:


> Interesting location you have: "CunczindorfPasconis Likes (Received): -4". :lol:


Does it add up to 4 *hates* ? :lol:


----------



## los77

^^years of work, years of sacrifices, to earn on this assessment


----------



## Corvinus

Fatfield said:


> Britain has introduced checks for those leaving the country today. At the moment its only on ferry and rail exits but it will be fully implemented throughout Britain by June this year.
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/1460561/all-passports-to-be-checked-on-uk-exit


Now that's interesting, given the reason for the exit checks:



> The Home Office has said the checks, which will be staggered across the UK, will create "a much clearer picture of who is staying in the country when they have no right to be here".


- since "Britain" does not include Northern Ireland, those leaving the UK overland for Ireland, and then leaving Ireland for a third country, will not be included in the exit check lists, and then show up in the statistics as "visa over-stayers"??


----------



## geogregor

Corvinus said:


> - since "Britain" does not include Northern Ireland, those leaving the UK overland for Ireland, and then leaving Ireland for a third country, will not be included in the exit check lists, and then show up in the statistics as "visa over-stayers"??


Interesting question.


----------



## the boat

Eulanthe said:


> Not quite right. Since 1997 (I think...), the obligation to present some sort of photo ID at RoI ports has existed. While formal identity controls might never have existed on the land border, carrying some sort of photographic ID when crossing the border was always highly recommended. I don't know about the RoI, but Northern Ireland always had the requirement for drivers to carry a driving licence when driving - so that was a de-facto identity check at checkpoints.
> 
> Anyway, the correct answer :
> 
> While formal border controls don't exist, it's a wise idea to carry the French ID card to prove your right to cross the border. The CTA only applies to British and Irish citizens, with all other citizens being required to carry an ID card (in the case of EU/EEA/CH citizens) or a passport (all others).
> 
> *Holding a BN(O) passport should exempt you from immigration controls (and allow you to take advantage of the CTA), but in practice, the authorities will want some proof of British citizenship if you don't have a British/Irish accent.
> *
> Controls are not entirely uncommon - the Gardai tend to have a look at trains/public buses/coaches from time to time.
> 
> Apparently the UK and Ireland are slowly moving towards a unified visa space, but progress is painfully slow. Till then, we're stuck with the absurdity that is the CTA. Chinese and Indian nationals already benefit from a unified visa, but that's it for now.


I'm not sure what proof that they would be looking for since I was born in Hong Kong and have an HK ID card (but no passport, as I have the BN(O)). 

So I think I should be fine if I use my French ID card, but this brings up another question of if I use my US Passport to enter the UK (Belfast), and the RoI does a "checkpoint stop," and I use another form of ID, wouldn't that cause an issue since the passport is scanned into the immigration database at the airport?


----------



## bogdymol

^^ In the last couple of months I flew 2 times from Germany/Austria to Dublin, then drove up to Belfast, and back. And a couple more times I flew from Schengen area to England and back.

If you fly in Belfast from a EU country, you can show your French ID and it will be fine. They won't ask too many questions. I always showed my Romanian ID card (I don't have a passport).

On the road between Dublin and Belfast there is no border check and I haven't even noticed any police check when I drove there last time. There's just a sign stating that the speed limit is now in mph (or km/h) and that's it. I wasn't stopped or checked in any way. There's just a toll plaza on the motorway nearby Drogheda (Pounds not accepted, but just Euros!). If you get stopped you can show the French ID card and it won't be a problem. EU passports/ID cards are not scanned (or maybe they are scanned, but not recorded) when entering or leaving UK or Ireland.


----------



## the boat

bogdymol said:


> ^^ In the last couple of months I flew 2 times from Germany/Austria to Dublin, then drove up to Belfast, and back. And a couple more times I flew from Schengen area to England and back.
> 
> If you fly in Belfast from a EU country, you can show your French ID and it will be fine. They won't ask too many questions. I always showed my Romanian ID card (I don't have a passport).
> 
> On the road between Dublin and Belfast there is no border check and I haven't even noticed any police check when I drove there last time. There's just a sign stating that the speed limit is now in mph (or km/h) and that's it. I wasn't stopped or checked in any way. There's just a toll plaza on the motorway nearby Drogheda (Pounds not accepted, but just Euros!). If you get stopped you can show the French ID card and it won't be a problem. EU passports/ID cards are not scanned (or maybe they are scanned, but not recorded) when entering or leaving UK or Ireland.


But this time (barring delays or cancellations due to ATC in Newark), I'll be arriving from the US in Belfast (which, IIRC is one of the very few flights outside of the CTA and EU/EEA/CH). And when leaving NI, my first stop is back in EWR. 

Thank you on the advice about Euros instead of Pounds for the tolls--now I'll remember to bring some. Hopefully it won't be as obnoxious as entering Italy from France on A8.


----------



## Eulanthe

the boat said:


> I'm not sure what proof that they would be looking for since I was born in Hong Kong and have an HK ID card (but no passport, as I have the BN(O)).
> 
> So I think I should be fine if I use my French ID card, but this brings up another question of if I use my US Passport to enter the UK (Belfast), and the RoI does a "checkpoint stop," and I use another form of ID, wouldn't that cause an issue since the passport is scanned into the immigration database at the airport?


Basically, you should use your French ID card (you're a French citizen, right?) to enter the UK with. The BN(O) passport still imposes immigration restrictions on you, as does the USA passport. If they were to stop you, then the French ID card is the best one to use. I mixed up the BN(O) passport with the BOTC passport.

If the French ID card isn't one given to French citizens but only residents, then the BN(O) passport is the next best bet.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Does someone know how border controls are performed there?
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/45.6925/15.3014


You can see a local border checkpoint in GMaps. There's no control of the exclave.


----------



## the boat

Eulanthe said:


> Basically, you should use your French ID card (you're a French citizen, right?) to enter the UK with. The BN(O) passport still imposes immigration restrictions on you, as does the USA passport. If they were to stop you, then the French ID card is the best one to use. I mixed up the BN(O) passport with the BOTC passport.
> 
> If the French ID card isn't one given to French citizens but only residents, then the BN(O) passport is the next best bet.


I'm not a French citizen, I just happen to be based in France (TLS) for work, so I also have a French long-stay visa. When trying to read up about the difference in the various UK passports, it is quite confusing as various dependencies have their own passport. I did find it interesting though that BN(O) does not grant UK Right to Abode and in order to get ILR I would have to pay a "health surcharge."

Edit: I see that as part of EU directive 1932/2006, BN(O)s were added to Annex II of EC539/2001, which means that I do not have the free movement rights as well as not being a declared EU citizen.

Edit 2: Is the border crossing difficult if driving between Hungary and Ukraine?


----------



## f.ostman

italystf said:


> Does someone know how border controls are performed there?
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/45.6925/15.3014


There was no control when I visited the area. Some of my photos are published on Jan Krogh's excellent Geosite:
http://geosite.jankrogh.com/brezovica.htm
There is a border post but it was empty at that time.


----------



## haddockman

the boat said:


> I'm not a French citizen, I just happen to be based in France (TLS) for work, so I also have a French long-stay visa. When trying to read up about the difference in the various UK passports, it is quite confusing as various dependencies have their own passport. I did find it interesting though that BN(O) does not grant UK Right to Abode and in order to get ILR I would have to pay a "health surcharge."
> 
> Edit: I see that as part of EU directive 1932/2006, BN(O)s were added to Annex II of EC539/2001, which means that I do not have the free movement rights as well as not being a declared EU citizen.
> 
> Edit 2: Is the border crossing difficult if driving between Hungary and Ukraine?


I would use the BNO passport to enter the UK in Belfast. 

There do be frequent controls on trains entering the Republic from the North of Ireland. They are only looking for those that are obviously not UK/IRL citizens.

Similarly with the buses there can be controls on those when entering the republic. About 500M over the border is a lay by that the authorities use to carry out checks. These checks are quite random. 

If driving in a private car the chances of being stopped is zero. If anyone in the Republic stops you just show the BNO passport and that there will be zero problems.


----------



## the boat

haddockman said:


> I would use the BNO passport to enter the UK in Belfast.
> 
> There do be frequent controls on trains entering the Republic from the North of Ireland. They are only looking for those that are obviously not UK/IRL citizens.
> 
> Similarly with the buses there can be controls on those when entering the republic. About 500M over the border is a lay by that the authorities use to carry out checks. These checks are quite random.
> 
> If driving in a private car the chances of being stopped is zero. If anyone in the Republic stops you just show the BNO passport and that there will be zero problems.


Thank you for the tips, hopefully United will allow me to use my BN(O) to board the flight to Belfast. Since the US doesn't have exit controls, I don't see why that would be a major issue, but one never knows.


----------



## italystf

Probably many of us know that there is a narrow strip of land disputed between SLO and HR near the sea.
On Google Maps it appears to have some houses inside and it's traversed by a road, aparently closed to motorized traffic:
https://www.google.it/maps/dir/45.4...47,13.6271138,2207m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e2
At one entrance there's "only residents" sign, unfortunately I cannot explore other entrances as they are near border crossings and Street View doesn't cover them.
https://www.google.it/maps/@45.4541...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sOG0XwaNd2RX4W2Ilyhjbsg!2e0
Openstreetmap shows the entire area as Croatian, probably because they consider who actually controls it regardeless other claims:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/45.4543/13.6488


----------



## italystf

Extremely fragmented borders with many exclaves and enclaves were the norm, rather than the exception, in pre-XVIII century Europe. Here you can see the border between the Venetian Republic (white) and the Austrian Empire's Gorizia County (light blue) before 1797:








Full resolution (beware, huge pic): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/AvI_Provinz_Innerösterreich.jpg


----------



## Kanadzie

the boat said:


> I'm not a French citizen, I just happen to be based in France (TLS) for work, so I also have a French long-stay visa. When trying to read up about the difference in the various UK passports, it is quite confusing as various dependencies have their own passport. I did find it interesting though that BN(O) does not grant UK Right to Abode and in order to get ILR I would have to pay a "health surcharge."
> 
> Edit: I see that as part of EU directive 1932/2006, BN(O)s were added to Annex II of EC539/2001, which means that I do not have the free movement rights as well as not being a declared EU citizen.
> 
> Edit 2: Is the border crossing difficult if driving between Hungary and Ukraine?


The establishment of BN(O) status was a disgusting event but it was nice because all these nice HK people moved to Canada instead :banana:


----------



## the boat

Kanadzie said:


> The establishment of BN(O) status was a disgusting event but it was nice because all these nice HK people moved to Canada instead :banana:


IIRC, the term that was widely used was "moral debt" when referring to the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the fact that the UK sold us out (even though the New Territories had a 99 year lease, the Chinese government at that time was still relatively weak). At least BN(O) exists, I'm not sure what nationality people can claim in Macao if they were there before 1999.


----------



## the boat

This is the border between Italy and France (A8 and SS1):

DSC_2447 by thediamondguest, on Flickr

Leaving France, but not quite at the border yet. 

DSC_2451 by thediamondguest, on Flickr

The identification plate for the firm operating the particular tollway

DSC_2452 by thediamondguest, on Flickr

The border (sorry for the sign out of focus, but the camera was focusing on the rain drops)

DSC_2454 by thediamondguest, on Flickr

1st Variable Message Sign in Italy

DSC_2456 by thediamondguest, on Flickr

Advance notification for the services plaza

DSC_2461 by thediamondguest, on Flickr

DSC_2463 by thediamondguest, on Flickr

DSC_2464 by thediamondguest, on Flickr

DSC_2466 by thediamondguest, on Flickr

DSC_2468 by thediamondguest, on Flickr

DSC_2478 by thediamondguest, on Flickr

DSC_2493 by thediamondguest, on Flickr

The old border/customs post, which is now an RV parking area.


----------



## Corvinus

^^ Connecting remark: the Autostrada dei Fiori, running from the border to Genova, is a very scenic and pleasant drive, but also one of the most expensively tolled roads of Italy. 

Also, when I drove there (2012), diesel was at a freaking 1.80 EUR/l at the motorway service stations; luckily I filled up in Menton (before getting on motorway) at around 1.35 EUR/l.


----------



## the boat

Corvinus said:


> ^^ Connecting remark: the Autostrada dei Fiori, running from the border to Genova, is a very scenic and pleasant drive, but also one of the most expensively tolled roads of Italy.
> 
> Also, when I drove there (2012), diesel was at a freaking 1.80 EUR/l at the motorway service stations; luckily I filled up in Menton (before getting on motorway) at around 1.35 EUR/l.


It was 5EUR just to clear the first toll plaza and get off of the tollway at the first junction. I was actually nervous that I would have to pay again to get out, until I found SS1.


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Another pic of Victoria Falls, Zambia/Zimbabwe*


Victoria Falls by pizzanaoengorda, on Flickr


----------



## alserrod

Amazing one... and seems to have some traffic


----------



## Eulanthe

the boat said:


> I'm not a French citizen, I just happen to be based in France (TLS) for work, so I also have a French long-stay visa. When trying to read up about the difference in the various UK passports, it is quite confusing as various dependencies have their own passport. I did find it interesting though that BN(O) does not grant UK Right to Abode and in order to get ILR I would have to pay a "health surcharge."
> 
> Edit: I see that as part of EU directive 1932/2006, BN(O)s were added to Annex II of EC539/2001, which means that I do not have the free movement rights as well as not being a declared EU citizen.
> 
> Edit 2: Is the border crossing difficult if driving between Hungary and Ukraine?


Aha! 

So you should use the BN(O) passport rather than the USA one. While the BN(O) doesn't give you EU freedom of movement/right of abode, you're still a British citizen. 

The border crossing between Hungary and Ukraine is no problem if you own the car. If you don't and the owner isn't travelling with you, then it can be more of an issue.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Live web-cams on FYROM's border checkpoints
http://www.roads.org.mk/315/video-kameri


----------



## Eulanthe

italystf said:


> This is another border crossing. There are two different border crossings between Terespol and Brest.
> Is the northernmost one for trucks only and the southernmost one only for cars?


Yes, the northern one is Kukuryki, although the Customs terminal is called Koroszczyn - the border crossing is effectively over two sites, similar to the old system at Swiecko. The difference between Swiecko and Kukuryki is that traffic at Swiecko wasn't forced into the Swiecko terminal, whereas traffic crossing at Kukuryki must head into the Koroszczyn terminal. It's only open to trucks.

Terespol on the other hand is open only for buses, cars and diplomatic traffic. 

There are some proposals to open up a pedestrian crossing between Brest and Terespol, but after the Belarus authorities unilaterally closed all pedestrian crossings between Belarus and LT/PL, it doesn't seem as if it will happen anytime soon.


----------



## Corvinus

Alex_ZR said:


> Afaik there are no border controls between RUS and BY But these countries have no common visa policy (like Schengen countries), so foreigners need two visas to visit both countries.
> 
> 
> 
> Or in case of Serbia none. :banana2:
Click to expand...

Here I had the interesting thought that Serbian citizenship would then be good for travel to *all* European countries without a visa? 
Checking in Wikipedia, however, revealed a visa is required for the UK and Ireland.

Is there a European citizenship that permits visa-free (tourism) travel to *all* European countries?


----------



## Alex_ZR

Corvinus said:


> Here I had the interesting thought that Serbian citizenship would then be good for travel to *all* European countries without a visa?
> Checking in Wikipedia, however, revealed a visa is required for the UK and Ireland.
> 
> Is there a European citizenship that permits visa-free (tourism) travel to *all* European countries?


Serbian citizens need visa for UK, Ireland and *Moldova*.

There is no such thing in Europe, since there are two cases that don't go together: if you don't need visas for Russia or Belarus you need visa for UK; if you are EU/Schengen member you need Russian/Belarussian visa.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

According to wikipedia Israeli citizens can enter Russia but not Belarus without a visa.


----------



## Verso

There's no such citizenship in the world. The harshest visa policy in Europe has Belarus.


----------



## kostas97

I know that the UK and Ireland have their own customs policy but doesn't the right of free movement within the EU still exist?
Unless the 2 countries have an opt-out.......
And a question....
Does an EU citizen need a visa for these 2 countries or are they visa free?


----------



## italystf

kostas97 said:


> I know that the UK and Ireland have their own customs policy but doesn't the right of free movement within the EU still exist?
> Unless the 2 countries have an opt-out.......
> And a question....
> Does an EU citizen need a visa for these 2 countries or are they visa free?


Of course EU\EEA\CH citizens can visit UK and IRL with ID only, as those two countries are EU members. It's the same for other non-Schengen EU members: Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria and (Greek part of) Cyprus.
Any EU citizen can visit, live, stay anytime (s)he wishes in any other EU country, regardeless if it's a Schengen member of not. Being a Schengen member means only that you don't have to show your ID at the border while entering from another Schengen country.
If you aren't an EU\EEA\CH citizen and you need a visa for the Schengen area, you will need an additional visa for UK, Croatia, Romania, etc... and a multiple-entry Schengen visa if you want to return to Schengen area after visiting a non-Schengen country (for example: France to UK and back to France, Slovenia to Croatia and back to Slovenia,...).


----------



## darko06

According to Wikipedia, if one possesses multiple entry Schengen visa and wants to visit Croatia, then he/she does not need separate Croatian visa.


----------



## kostas97

Allright then, thanks for the information fellows!


----------



## Eulanthe

The single-entry Schengen visa has caught some people out before, especially on the Spain-Gibraltar and Andorra-Gibraltar border.


----------



## bogdymol

^^ What happens if you have a one-entry Schengen visa and you go to Andorra? There are no airports in there to fly out.

Regarding UK and Ireland: as a Romanian citizen (as well as for every other EU citizen) I don't need a visa. It's just a simple and quick passport / ID card check at the border. I just returned from there yesterday.


----------



## Corvinus

bogdymol said:


> ^^ What happens if you have a one-entry Schengen visa and you go to Andorra? There are no airports in there to fly out.


Options:
- attempt to leave Andorra just as if everything was in order - and hope it's not your papers F or E guards want to check (there is no strict, one-by-one personal ID check on those borders),
- walk into the F or E embassy in Andorra la Vella and apply for another Schengen entry visa


----------



## Highway89

[Please delete]


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> If you aren't an EU\EEA\CH citizen and you need a visa for the Schengen area, you will need an additional visa for UK, Croatia, Romania, etc... and a multiple-entry Schengen visa if you want to return to Schengen area after visiting a non-Schengen country (for example: France to UK and back to France, Slovenia to Croatia and back to Slovenia,...).


Only the UK and Ireland have independent visa policies. Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria, and Cyprus are bound by visa policy of the Schengen Area.


----------



## Eulanthe

bogdymol said:


> ^^ What happens if you have a one-entry Schengen visa and you go to Andorra? There are no airports in there to fly out.


It's actually a stupid situation, because the EU really should just mandate that a single entry Schengen visa also covers visiting Andorra and Gibraltar in light of the lack of systematic border police controls. The EU even wants Gibraltar and Spain to drop exit identity controls on the border!

Speaking of the Gibraltar/Spain border - this is worth a read - http://gibraltarpanorama.gi/15209/1...ontroversial-schengen-style-frontier-controls

This is just sheer madness. Gibraltar is in the EU, there's absolutely no need for this!

As for Andorra, it's worth pointing out that there are likely some people living there who require Schengen visas.


----------



## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> It's actually a stupid situation, because the EU really should just mandate that a single entry Schengen visa also covers visiting Andorra and Gibraltar in light of the lack of systematic border police controls. The EU even wants Gibraltar and Spain to drop exit identity controls on the border!
> 
> Speaking of the Gibraltar/Spain border - this is worth a read - http://gibraltarpanorama.gi/15209/1...ontroversial-schengen-style-frontier-controls
> 
> This is just sheer madness. Gibraltar is in the EU, there's absolutely no need for this!
> 
> As for Andorra, it's worth pointing out that there are likely some people living there who require Schengen visas.


Every system leaks. Why to bother with these insignificant cases?


----------



## Palance

Some quite illegally taken pictures of a crossing point between Israel and Palestine area, last week. I am not sure where this is exactly, I think between Jerusalem and Bethlehem (pics are not mine).


----------



## cinxxx

Crossing Slovenia to Croatia and back last 2 days was a joke, just a 1-2 second glance at ID cards, I almost didn't have to stop the car...


----------



## SRC_100

^^
HU/HR border in Udvar there is no any croatian staff, both you leaving and entering Croatia so no checking, just hungarian staff check everything like before 1989... I hate it because they cause you feel like a criminal or so...


----------



## Eulanthe

SRC_100 said:


> ^^HU/HR border in Udvar there is no any croatian staff, both you leaving and entering Croatia so no checking, just hungarian staff check everything like before 1989... I hate it because they cause you feel like a criminal or so...


Are you sure that the Croatians aren't there with the Hungarians? As the Hungarian infrastructure is at Schengen standards while the Croatian infrastructure wasn't, as far as I know, most controls moved to the Hungarian side of the border.

As for HR/SLO, have the Slovenians finally started trusting Croatia to look after the Schengen border? Last summer, they were still scanning passports and taking their time...


----------



## VITORIA MAN

http://www.kyivpost.com/media/images/2014/03/25/p18js1r0th1san1qis15151rdt1s2bf/original_big.jpg


----------



## volodaaaa

VITORIA MAN said:


> http://www.kyivpost.com/media/images/2014/03/25/p18js1r0th1san1qis15151rdt1s2bf/original_big.jpg


Is it safe to pass by foreign personal car?


----------



## cinxxx

Some pictures from me from Spain-Gibraltar, crossing on foot:

La Línea de la Concepción by cinxxx, on Flickr

La Línea de la Concepción by cinxxx, on Flickr

Gibraltar by cinxxx, on Flickr

Gibraltar by cinxxx, on Flickr

Gibraltar by cinxxx, on Flickr

Gibraltar by cinxxx, on Flickr

Gibraltar by cinxxx, on Flickr

And crossing back to Spain:

Gibraltar by cinxxx, on Flickr

Gibraltar by cinxxx, on Flickr

Gibraltar by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## KRX_69

Last time I was in Gibraltar, I've been three hours to enter in Spain because of political tension. The situation is now resolved ?, Since there are not so many lines, both to enter and to leave Gibraltar? :cheers:


----------



## cinxxx

^^I was on the last Friday of March, but arrived shortly after 16:00. 

We were the only 2 people crossing by foot into GIB, everything was very relaxed, officers thanked us in Romanian ("mulţumesc") after providing passports. We also asked for stamps and got them.

On exit nothing checked, just a very brief look from 2 meters, from the booth at us and at our papers.


----------



## Eulanthe

KRX_69 said:


> Last time I was in Gibraltar, I've been three hours to enter in Spain because of political tension. The situation is now resolved ?, Since there are not so many lines, both to enter and to leave Gibraltar? :cheers:


Everything (for the time being) has returned to normality. Exit checks are made at random (on both sides), and entry checks are swift. 

However, it might be about to change. The rumours flying around Gibraltar is that Spain is planning to introduce full Schengen entry and exit checks in accordance with Schengen rules. A Spanish friend in La Linea thinks that this isn't actually the case, but that the "secondary infrastructure" will be built to avoid the problems caused by doing full searches in the main traffic lanes, which was one of the main reasons why the EU wasn't happy. 

This is a drawing of what should be built there -







- which clearly shows that there should be three/four lanes entering Gibraltar, with four lanes leaving Gibraltar. The equal infrastructure exists on the Gibraltar side, so exit/entry should be much smoother. The plans also show a large amount of possible inspection bays for the Spanish Aduana, so perhaps they are genuine about sorting out the mess there.

Either way, the infrastructure is still rubbish for the amount of traffic. 

cinxxx, did you have a look at the pictures on the wall in the Gibraltar passport control building? And was anyone actually present in the Spanish entry Customs office (where the x-ray machines are)?


----------



## bogdymol

As a EU citizen, do you need a Passport to cross into Gibraltar, or is the ID card enough?


----------



## cinxxx

Eulanthe said:


> cinxxx, did you have a look at the pictures on the wall in the Gibraltar passport control building? And was anyone actually present in the Spanish entry Customs office (where the x-ray machines are)?


I don't think I looked, or if I did, I don't remember.
I think that someone from Spain was in the booth (can be seen in my second picture) and we only waved the passport towards him. 
There was also no heavy traffic at that time.



bogdymol said:


> As a EU citizen, do you need a Passport to cross into Gibraltar, or is the ID card enough?


Afaik, ID should be enough (Gibraltar should have same status as UK island), we used our passports only to also ask for stamps.


----------



## Eulanthe

This is the pedestrian entry Customs control on the Gibraltar/Spain border. Strangely, the passport control is conducted outside in the open air. It's a very strange border...


----------



## cinxxx

^^Gibraltar officers were inside, where they also checked our documents.
Only on exit to Spain did we not step anywhere inside.


----------



## alserrod

bogdymol said:


> As a EU citizen, do you need a Passport to cross into Gibraltar, or is the ID card enough?





KRX_69 said:


> Last time I was in Gibraltar, I've been three hours to enter in Spain because of political tension. The situation is now resolved ?, Since there are not so many lines, both to enter and to leave Gibraltar? :cheers:


First of all, Gibraltar pannels translations are quite accurate (rather far from those US pannels in Spanish with a lot of mistakes).

AFAIK... you do not need to use your passport

Nowadays there's no news about Gibraltar and as you know "no news = good news". Last time there were long queues was after a great corruption case in the government in august. They "needed" to submit news to newspapers in august to avoid talking about them.


----------



## alserrod

In addition.... it is a pity. Next person to visit Gibraltar, please, spot the "look left" signals for Pedestrians in the streets.

They are in the same format than in other corner of the UK but.... "look left" instead of "look right" because Gibraltar is right hand driving. In google we can search something but not to much


----------



## Eulanthe

cinxxx said:


> ^^Gibraltar officers were inside, where they also checked our documents.
> Only on exit to Spain did we not step anywhere inside.


That's weird, when I was there, you had no choice but to go through the building above. Maybe it's connected to the ongoing building works...

About Crimea - as far as I know, both sides are building permanent facilities. It looks like we're headed for a Kosovo-style "solution" there - Ukraine will recognise the line as an administrative boundary, while Russia will recognise it as an international boundary.

The other thing - as far as I know, the checkpoints are also working normally.


----------



## Kanadzie

alserrod said:


> First of all, Gibraltar pannels translations are quite accurate (rather far from those US pannels in Spanish with a lot of mistakes).


Is it so true? I saw "approximacion aeropuerto" and read "approximately an airport" I mean I understand it is "proximate" but surely Spaniard normally would use another word?


----------



## Verso

A couple of days ago I crossed the Slovenian-Croatian border by train between Ormož (SLO) and Čakovec (HR) (just for fun, because I'd never driven there before). However, the train stops in Čakovec for just 9 minutes and goes back to Slovenia (I've already been to Čakovec anyway). It was a bit awkward when the Croatian cop came on the train and asked me why I don't exit, he was like 'wtf'.  The whole thing was even more ridiculous as I was the only passenger on the entire train. :lol:


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> A couple of days ago I crossed the Slovenian-Croatian border by train between Ormož (SLO) and Čakovec (HR) (just for fun, because I'd never driven there before). However, the train stops in Čakovec for just 9 minutes and goes back to Slovenia (I've already been to Čakovec anyway). It was a bit awkward when the Croatian cop came on the train and asked me why I don't exit, he was like 'wtf'.  The whole thing was even more ridiculous as I was the only passenger on the entire train. :lol:


Hey, that's an interesting question - how are border controls carried out there? By the fact that the Croatian cop got on the train, does it mean that they're carried out in the station rather than on the train? If they're carried out in the station, then I need to go this summer!

(and likewise, what about the Slovenian controls?)


----------



## Verso

^^ No, they are carried out in train (or by the door of the train, if you exit).

And I was checked by the same Slovenian cop twice in half an hour. :lol:


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> ^^ No, they are carried out in train (or by the door of the train, if you exit).


Bah  I'm still hunting for somewhere in Europe where physical border controls are carried out in the station - ignoring the obvious Eurostar ones, I haven't found anywhere else. There's still Przemysl, but the cost of taking the sleeper train to L'viv just for the sake of going through border controls in the station is way too high. The other one in Poland, Kroscienko, has been closed for years now due to the vast amount of demolition done by smugglers. There's also one in Terespol, but the Belarus visa is such a pain to obtain. 



> And I was checked by the same Slovenian cop twice in half an hour. :lol:


I hope the answer was "what" 

I've never understood why border police are so confused by someone crossing after a few minutes. It'll soon be time for my yearly "annoy the border guards in Hum na Sutli/Rogatec late at night" trip


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> I hope the answer was "what"


He probably remembered me, but he didn't say anything.


----------



## alserrod

Kanadzie said:


> Is it so true? I saw "approximacion aeropuerto" and read "approximately an airport" I mean I understand it is "proximate" but surely Spaniard normally would use another word?


Will use the same words but maybe with other additional words "aproximacion AL aeropuerto" maybe more correct....but really not bad (and better than San Diego pannels)


----------



## Singidunum

Eulanthe said:


> Bah  I'm still hunting for somewhere in Europe where physical border controls are carried out in the station - ignoring the obvious Eurostar ones, I haven't found anywhere else.


I think Vilnius-Minsk should have it












Eulanthe said:


> I've never understood why border police are so confused by someone crossing after a few minutes.


Afaik it's an alarm for customs in their handbook to search you for smuggling something.


----------



## Corvinus

Nice one found on the net, Săcuieni/Székelyhíd (RO) -> Létavértes (H), with genuine Socialist-era Dacia. The mandatory snow chains sign is quite surprising, though I don't know how mountainous that region is.


----------



## Verso

Corvinus said:


> The mandatory snow chains sign is quite surprising, though I don't know how mountainous that region is.


In Hungary? Let me guess.


----------



## Singidunum

That must be an old photo, Hungary changed the official name of the country a while ago and it's not so careless like Serbia for example to let the old signs rot for decades.


----------



## Verso

Border crossing between Slovenia and the new Kingdom of Enclava between Slovenia and Croatia. 









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/86056335


----------



## Palance

Croatia has some strange neighbours: Enclava, Liberland...


----------



## alserrod

Can you point them into a map, please?

Thx in advance


----------



## Aokromes

alserrod said:


> Can you point them into a map, please?
> 
> Thx in advance


----------



## aswnl

Brezovica seems a sort of Baarle-Nassau/Hertog


----------



## Verso

^^ There were several enclaves and exclaves in Brezovica when it was the border between the Holy Roman Empire and Hungary. Today's border was determined in 1824 or shortly before that.


----------



## f.ostman

Verso said:


> Border crossing between Slovenia and the new Kingdom of Enclava between Slovenia and Croatia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/86056335


The house which roof can be seen to he left is located inside "enclava". Picture taken a rainy day in May 2011 by me.


----------



## Verso

^^ Have you noticed another no man's land (_terra nullius_) close to this one?

Slovenian map:









Croatian map:


----------



## Kanadzie

It's mine! :lol:


----------



## Verso




----------



## CNGL

I see some territory just to the West of that _terra nullius_ which is claimed by both Slovenia and Croatia :naughty:.


----------



## Verso

Nothing new. :lol:


----------



## Vertigo

Eulanthe said:


> Bah  I'm still hunting for somewhere in Europe where physical border controls are carried out in the station - ignoring the obvious Eurostar ones, I haven't found anywhere else.


Basel SNCF used to be an example. This is the part of the Basel SBB station used by trains to/from France. Before entering the SNCF part, you used to pass through border check and customs. I guess border checks have been abolished now Switzerland is part of Schengen, but customs may still be carried out in the station.


----------



## LMB

Vertigo said:


> Basel SNCF used to be an example. This is the part of the Basel SBB station used by trains to/from France. Before entering the SNCF part, you used to pass through border check and customs. I guess border checks have been abolished now Switzerland is part of Schengen, but customs may still be carried out in the station.


I'm not sure we you mean the same thing, but Basel Badischer also had controls in the station, right in the underground passage. 

I didn't get close enough to Basel SNCF, but is there a door to the platform? IIRC, the station was a bit west to the main (HB).


----------



## Eulanthe

Vertigo said:


> Basel SNCF used to be an example. This is the part of the Basel SBB station used by trains to/from France. Before entering the SNCF part, you used to pass through border check and customs. I guess border checks have been abolished now Switzerland is part of Schengen, but customs may still be carried out in the station.


The infrastructure is still there, but as you say, the border checks have been abolished. It's the same with Basel Badischer, the infrastructure is still there and Customs are still present, but checks are very very rare in the CH -> EU direction. 

On a related note about European borders, it seems that the madness concerning local border crossings in Croatia/Slovenia has finally been solved. The local border crossings are now open to everyone who has the right of free movement in the EU without any need for a silly local border pass or otherwise. Time to go and annoy them some more, I guess!


----------



## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> Bah  I'm still hunting for somewhere in Europe where physical border controls are carried out in the station - ignoring the obvious Eurostar ones, I haven't found anywhere else. There's still Przemysl, but the cost of taking the sleeper train to L'viv just for the sake of going through border controls in the station is way too high. The other one in Poland, Kroscienko, has been closed for years now due to the vast amount of demolition done by smugglers. There's also one in Terespol, but the Belarus visa is such a pain to obtain.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope the answer was "what"
> 
> I've never understood why border police are so confused by someone crossing after a few minutes. It'll soon be time for my yearly "annoy the border guards in Hum na Sutli/Rogatec late at night" trip



There were officially no custom controls but in the late 90s I crossed several times the Irun-Hendaye border by train. All former booths remained... and in Hendaye there were a nightmare. I had to go down and up by stairs with the baggage twice to go to the main building.

There was a small building with a passport booth and later a baggage control desk with the Spanish police logo. Later a yellow line in the ground and the same things but with the French police logo as Customs.

In Irun, the same thing conversely (but not so many stairs to cross...)
Even if you had entered by train in the other country it was supossed you hadn't crossed the border until you had crossed that yellow line.


I remember only once to have a random baggage control in France by French police (in "their side") and other one a random passport control in Spain by Spanish police. I remember they didn't do it in the booths but in a corridor and without uniform (an officer showed me the badge and asked for passport). I said I hadn't but I could look for my ID card anywhere in the baggage. He asked me for my destination, I replied and he let me keep on (it seemed they were looking for some type of passengers and it is easy to discover the city where I come with my accent)



All trains arrived to Hendaye (or Irun) and returned empty. First of all, it was easier to make then a passport control (only for arrivals, never for departures because all trains in Hendaye departed within France and all trains in Irun departed within Spain), secondly, we had different currencies and having all trains departing from Irun/Hendaye within the same country they avoided to sell tickets with a different currency

Nowadays, nothing to worry about currencies (due to the Euro) and shouldn't have any custom controls... but I had two of them being in the Schengen area already.



Furthermore, I wonder how they did controls here by both polices

https://www.google.es/maps/@43.3528...!1e1!3m2!1sr2VdKIpBD67xQIQmci0AHw!2e0!6m1!1e1

In front of main Hendaye SNCF station there is a narrow gauge railway. It shuttles to St.Sebastian and last/first station is Hendaye, just after crossing the border. If you take the train for only one stop, next call is in the other side of the river, Spanish side. 

I ask it because I didn't notice any former booth or so... and should have even from French and Spanish police in some other time





And by the way... some years later "this ones" were railway border controls from a train coming from Paris to a train going to Barcelona (or conversely) at Figueras










(I do not know credits about this picture but google says it is located in SSC, btw!!!!!)


It will be hard to see it again due to now, all SNCF and Renfe services are enlarged and Figueres-Vilafant is not a terminus any more


----------



## Verso

alserrod said:


> What does it mean?


SCS


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK sends his regards, and this: http://9gag.com/gag/aby7QNL?ref=fbp

(Most, but not all, of which are in that set from boredpanda on the previous page of this thread.)

In other news, I may be in Baarle personally in a month or so.

:cheers:


----------



## alserrod

Not a boarding pass... but with google street view... this is Israel and Jordan is ahead (no pass allowed there, I think)

https://www.google.es/maps/@30.9491...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sPixXoVwhk0p824JdWeqtbw!2e0


----------



## OulaL

Penn's Woods said:


> Road_UK sends his regards, and this: http://9gag.com/gag/aby7QNL?ref=fbp


As for #14, Sweden and Denmark are just the opposite.


----------



## Festin

cinxxx said:


> Meanwhile because of the G7 meeting border controls have been temporarily restarted between Germany and Austria and Germany and Czech Republic (not sure if only for Bavaria).


How come they only pick those two countries? If they wish to check all traffic from east shouldn't they also control the border with polen? I am guessing they dont consider any threats from the west?


----------



## cinxxx

^^Don't know if they did, I heard on the radio only about controls In Bavaria (Bavarian radio station)...


----------



## SRC_100

Festin said:


> How come they only pick those two countries?


Because Bavaria has borders only with A, CZ i CH (borders still existing)



Festin said:


> If they wish to check all traffic from east shouldn't they also control the border with polen?


Why only from east?! 



Festin said:


> polen


Btw, this is english language forum and name of countries is written with capital (first) letter.



Festin said:


> I am guessing they dont consider any threats from the west?


You are wrong at all. Regarding G7, threat comes from everywhere, especially from leftist and muslim terrorists (most expected in so called "West")


----------



## Festin

SRC_100 said:


> Because Bavaria has borders only with A, CZ i CH (borders still existing)


Thought it was the hole germany



SRC_100 said:


> Why only from east?!


Russia is on the east side of Germany and is pictured as bad guy #1 at the moment?



SRC_100 said:


> You are wrong at all. Regarding G7, threat comes from everywhere, especially from leftist and muslim terrorists (most expected in so called "West")


Well since I understood it as germany was controlling it borders with a, cz and ch I assumed it was an controll from traffic coming from east. No controlls with belgium, netherlands or even luxemburg? france?





SRC_100 said:


> Btw, this is english language forum and name of countries is written with capital (first) letter.


You did not sleep or what is your problem? Did not mean to offend polen or any other eastern country for that matter. And correcting someones gramma isnt an argument...Nor is it a relevant input so drop it


----------



## SRC_100

^^
The problem is you can`t understand the interim border control applies only to Bavaria. Besides I wanted to draw attention we should write the name of countris in english in this tread with capital letter, it is so difficult to understand?
But taking into account your nick I am not surprised that you do not understand.


----------



## Festin

SRC_100 said:


> ^^
> The problem is you can`t understand the interim border control applies only to Bavaria. Besides I wanted to draw attention we should write the name of countris in english in this tread with capital letter, it is so difficult to understand?
> But taking into account your nick I am not surprised that you do not understand.


When I asked the question in the first place I did not understand it only applied to Bavaria, no. I thought it was the hole Germany, hence my question in the first place. People should be allowed to write the name of the countri*e*s in the way they wish. And it is not only in english you write it with a capital. 

What does my nick has to with anything? Did I spell my own nick wrong? Please englighten me.


----------



## Eulanthe

Festin said:


> How come they only pick those two countries? If they wish to check all traffic from east shouldn't they also control the border with polen? I am guessing they dont consider any threats from the west?


Probably no need, the amount of manpower needed to perform even random checks on all German borders would be astronomical. 

There will probably be checks on the Bavarian borders within Germany, too.


----------



## italystf

Eulanthe said:


> Probably no need, the amount of manpower needed to perform even random checks on all German borders would be astronomical.
> 
> There will probably be checks on the Bavarian borders within Germany, too.


Really? It would very weird to see a systematic control post within the same country.
When Italy hosted G8 in Genoa (2001, that infamous G8...) and in L'Aquila (2009) Schengen was suspended for the whole Italy.


----------



## MichiH

Festin said:


> How come they only pick those two countries? If they wish to check all traffic from east shouldn't they also control the border with polen? I am guessing they dont consider any threats from the west?


The press release of the Federal Ministry of the Interior (25th May) reports that *random (!) border controls will be done at internal Schengen borders from 26th May to 15th June 2015.*

The Bundespolizei (federal police) reported in February 2015 about the G7 mission. The maximum security area is close to the Austrian border which is why border checks have to be done at the Austrian border. My highlight:



> Daher werden Einsatzkräfte der Bundespolizei beispielsweise an der Meilerhütte auf 2 374 Metern Höhe ihren Dienst verrichten und dort gegebenenfalls Grenzkontrollen durchführen.
> 
> For instance, the federal police will be positioned on an altitude of 2,374 meters (Meiler lodge) and could do border controls there


A news article (26th May) reports that the random border controls are the focused on the borders to Austria and Czech Republic, also at hiking trails.

Another news article (29th May) reports that 450 illegal immigrants were caught (at the border to Austria), drugs and guns were found etcetera.

This news article reports (30th May) reports about border controls to Czech Republic and Poland. The headline is "Criminals every minute!

Of course, there are NO border controls are done at internal German state's borders! And again, there are two G7 meetings, one in Bavaria, one in Saxony (Dresden).


----------



## VITORIA MAN

back to the pics
Fronteira Portuguesa entre Tourem (Portugal) y Calvos de Randín (España) by Miguel Alonso, en Flickr
Galicia / Tourém by ~~henry~~, en Flickr
https://www.google.es/maps/@41.926876,-7.89865,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sr4b-kJo5jid6qCs-kzeFQA!2e0


----------



## alserrod

VITORIA MAN said:


> back to the pics
> Fronteira Portuguesa entre Tourem (Portugal) y Calvos de Randín (España) by Miguel Alonso, en Flickr



WTF!!!!!

I've searched in google... it is located here

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.9266...!1e1!3m2!1shvjswi0EynVLXQFySctOPw!2e0!6m1!1e1

Portuguese border is only the road in the left, indeed. The road (lane) in the right keeps in Spain.

But it has a so important word fault: "portugesa" which should be "portuguesa", (either in Spanish, Portuguese or Galician)

Someone was worth to set an "I" and "frontera" shift from Spanish to Portuguese/Galician but didn't worth about that fault.


I would state that it is so horrible as some US border translations we have posted here.


----------



## Eulanthe

Can someone tell me what border controls were like between Portugal and Spain after 1945?


----------



## alserrod

Controls... the same as in France-Spain but to my best knowledge, you could approach to Portugal without any special permission.

In the case of France, any Spanish citizen who didn't live near the border needed a visa... just to move near the border (not to cross it).

In the case of Portugal it didn't exist... but have a look to Badajoz, for instance, one out of the 50 province capital and the distance from city centre to border

https://www.google.es/maps/place/Ba...m2!3m1!1s0xd16e43eac5f354d:0x688c7e359714a4a9

To cross the border... just a passport. It was enough. Well, maybe police will check if you were smuggling or if you were looked forward justice or so... but only passports. 

Spanish citizens didn't require a visa to quit the country... just only a passport, but not all the citizens had a passport. They made the ID card (quite useful today, btw) to have identified to all citizens but not allowed to quit the country.


Nevertheless, Portugal and Spain had similar regimes so refugees would look for another destination. If someone crossed border and was catched by the other police he would be returned asap.


----------



## Penn's Woods

SRC_100 said:


> ^^
> The problem is you can`t understand the interim border control applies only to Bavaria. Besides I wanted to draw attention we should write the name of countris in english in this tread with capital letter, it is so difficult to understand?
> But taking into account your nick I am not surprised that you do not understand.


Oh, good. Don't post for a while and the Continentals start correcting each other's broken English.


----------



## Kanadzie

Vota Merda e Progreso! :lol:


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod - thanks! I'm surprised actually - I thought Franco's Spain did require exit visas from Spanish citizens, although I know that the country was never closed off in the same way as other countries in Europe were.

Here's a curious border-related sign, and I can't find out anything about it. It's just west of the A16 France/Belgium border crossing - https://www.google.pl/maps/@51.0556...!1e1!3m2!1skytme8n_bzG7Om8V3ZKqcg!2e0!6m1!1e1 

Why would only non-EU trucks need a ticket for travelling on the A16? What was the ticket for?


----------



## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> alserrod - thanks! I'm surprised actually - I thought Franco's Spain did require exit visas from Spanish citizens, although I know that the country was never closed off in the same way as other countries in Europe were.



That's right. There wasn't a visa required to exit the country. But.... in addition, passports were offered only to several citizens.

They made this sort of ID card










which was valable for any internal affaire but wasn't allowed to travel abroad. It was mandatory to have it for all citizens aged over 14 and enough to have "controlled" all population and not allowed to exit the country.

And... it has been so useful that it has been developped. Today it is something like this









with an electronic chip (and you must stamp your fingerprint in the police station but doesn't appear in the document) and some police and tax agency information.

People is so used that... sometimes I am fed up that calling to any company to ask something, they will ask me first of all my ID number and later my name!!!!


To approach France you needed a permission like this one










It is stamped in 1954 and allows owner to move within the area near France in the Mediterranean coast and near Pyrenees.... move there, not cross the border!!!.
Only people living there (with ID card saying that was their address) were allowed to move there without this permission. Providing you moved there without it, you had been arrested.

But... to exit country, just a passport. As said, no visa required but to ask for a passport... first question... why???, why did you need a passport?. Therefore, few people had it.

Controls in borders weren't quite exhaustives. There were so few movement that it was easy to check them


My father had to move from time to time to Germany in the early 80s and had his passport stamped of entries and exits of Spain, nevertheless the airport. I never saw a German stamp in his passport.


Nowadays, with ID card it is enough to move within EU and Schengen area (and Andorra). But, in opposition, for several countries, people keep asking a passport because they know that it will be very unoften to see his/her ID card in some countries.


----------



## verreme

alserrod said:


> Controls in borders weren't quite exhaustives. There were so few movement that it was easy to check them


AFAIK many Spaniards traveled abroad during the dictatorship, especially in the later years when things were a bit easier and more and more people could afford a car. Driving to France with the purpose of watching a banned movie (in Spain) was very common in certain circles. Even today, older generations (>50 years old) still joke about travelling to France with friends to watch porn .

Spain's "hermit country" period was between 1939 and the 1950s, for two reasons -the international isolation due to the country's support to nazi Germany during WWII (Spain was not accepted into the UN until 1952) and the later "autarquía" (self-sufficiency) policy of the early Franco regime. During that time, getting out of the country -and especially getting something into it- was difficult and our population didn't starve thanks to smuggling.


----------



## alserrod

That's right.... AFAIK, the most ever film in Biarritz cinemas forever was Emmanuelle.....


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> To approach France you needed a permission like this one
> 
> It is stamped in 1954 and allows owner to move within the area near France in the Mediterranean coast and near Pyrenees.... move there, not cross the border!!!.
> Only people living there (with ID card saying that was their address) were allowed to move there without this permission. Providing you moved there without it, you had been arrested.


Russia has still something similar. Everybody needs a permit to visit areas near the border (such Ivangorod, near the Estonian border). Hungary used to have it until 1989 at the border with Austria.



alserrod said:


> Nowadays, with ID card it is enough to move within EU and Schengen area (and Andorra).


There are other countries that Schengen citizens can visit with ID only. All Balkan countries (but I'm not sure about Kosovo) and probably some more around the world.


----------



## piotr71

AFAIK, Kosovo can only be entered with a passport or biometric ID card from Macedonia, Bulgaria, Montenegro and Albania. From Serbia it's possible with a regular ID. If it comes to countries outside Europe, Georgia is probably only independent land one can visit using EU/Schengen identity document.


----------



## Eulanthe

italystf said:


> Russia has still something similar. Everybody needs a permit to visit areas near the border (such Ivangorod, near the Estonian border). Hungary used to have it until 1989 at the border with Austria.


Lithuania and Finland have it as well, and I think Bosnia has a blanket 100m restriction on approaching the border away from border crossings. 

Croatia has it to a certain extent - while not officially required, it's a wise idea to inform the local border post of your activities if you intend to wander around remote areas close to the border.


----------



## alserrod

Depending on areas Spain had a more than 50 km restriction area. Citizens which ID card said they lived there could move in those areas with no problems (there will be a lot of random controls but enough with ID card).
But any relatives should have to ask for a permission to go there, for instance.

What I do not know is when it expired.


----------



## Palance

Eulanthe said:


> Lithuania and Finland have it as well, and I think Bosnia has a blanket 100m restriction on approaching the border away from border crossings.
> 
> Croatia has it to a certain extent - while not officially required, it's a wise idea to inform the local border post of your activities if you intend to wander around remote areas close to the border.


Never heard of such regulations in BiH. And for Croatia: 2 uears ago I have driven in Konavle region from the village Dubravka northbound towards the border near the tripoint HR-BA-ME. I even saw a police car but they didn't stop me. I didn't go all the way to the border, because the road became very bad (there is no border crossing there anymore).


----------



## Ulpiana

piotr71 said:


> AFAIK, Kosovo can only be entered with a passport or biometric ID card from Macedonia, Bulgaria, Montenegro and Albania. From Serbia it's possible with a regular ID. If it comes to countries outside Europe, Georgia is probably only independent land one can visit using EU/Schengen identity document.


In Kosovo citizens of Albania, Serbia and Montenegro can enter with their regular National ID. All others, including Macedonian and Bulgarian citizens, need to have passport to enter in Kosovo.


----------



## volodaaaa

Ulpiana said:


> In Kosovo citizens of Albania, Serbia and Montenegro can enter with their regular National ID. All others, including Macedonian and Bulgarian citizens, need to have passport to enter in Kosovo.


When is that obligation valid since? My classmate was in Kosovo and used only ID card.


----------



## eucitizen

On the official website of the Kosovo Foreign Affair´s Ministry, EU countries citizens can enter with biometric ID cards:

http://www.mfa-ks.net/?page=2,158


----------



## Ulpiana

^^ I didn't know this.


----------



## Eulanthe

Palance said:


> Never heard of such regulations in BiH. And for Croatia: 2 uears ago I have driven in Konavle region from the village Dubravka northbound towards the border near the tripoint HR-BA-ME. I even saw a police car but they didn't stop me. I didn't go all the way to the border, because the road became very bad (there is no border crossing there anymore).


Aha, I was slightly wrong. Check here - http://www.granpol.gov.ba/propisi/zakoni/?cid=30,1,1 - article 3, paragraph 4.

Essentially, non-BiH citizens cannot go closer than 300m to the border (except at border crossings) without permission. Article 63, paragraph 22 allows a punishment of up to 1,500BAM in this case.

I think this is why there are signs at BiH border crossings saying "protected zone".


----------



## Festin

From EU countries and EES/Schengen you can enter kosovo with the so called international ID card. (Not those you get from the bank with your first bank card )


----------



## los77

*border crossing Bezledy [PL] - Bagrationovsk [RU]​*





Link : DROGAMI PO POLSCE

:cheers:


----------



## bzbox

Singidunum said:


>


How to get there from Hungary? Every road leading there the sign says "Private road".


----------



## Corvinus

Schengen outer border facility in Folkestone, UK. Vehicles boarding the Channel Tunnel pass this.
Notice the arrow in the "France" sign - apparently an auxiliary solution where neither a "France" proper sign, nor a "France" with an indicated distance would make sense.


----------



## Kanadzie

los77 said:


> *border crossing Bezledy [PL] - Bagrationovsk [RU] ​*
> 
> Link : DROGAMI PO POLSCE
> 
> :cheers:


I love how the driver approaches the RU border then gets scared, turns around runs back to PL :lol:


----------



## Eulanthe

Corvinus - where are the UK border controls there? I know the UK doesn't have systematic exit controls, but I thought they were still stationed there?


----------



## Corvinus

I read that in April 2015 the UK was just about to introduce systematic exit controls. The indicated purpose is to easier detect foreign nationals that do not leave the UK within the date they should. As a consequence, when booking a ferry ride or the Channel Tunnel that departs the "Common Travel Area" (UK + IRL), passengers have to provide their ID's data when booking. 

I crossed the pictured border a few days ago, and no UK exit controls were performed. Haven't seen UK officers there. 
The French officer was in the booth, but didn't want to look at our papers either.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ I love that idea of making exit checks to find people who do not leave... you would be in contact with only those who are leaving, so to find the ones breaking the law, you just need to look at everyone else in the whole country who isn't passing the checkpoint :lol:


----------



## Alex_ZR

Bácsalmás (H) - Bajmok (SRB) border crossings:

Hungarian side (photo from 2007)










Serbian side










This border crossing can be used by citizens of Serbia, EU+EEA+CH.


----------



## Eulanthe

Interesting photo showing the Montenegrin border crossing with Croatia at Debeli Brijeg from a few years ago (before they built the current border crossing)


----------



## Nikkodemo

*USA/Canada (Washington/British Columbia)*


Together In Unity by Janusz Leszczynski, on Flickr


Run for the border by Janusz Leszczynski, on Flickr


----------



## Verso

India and Bangladesh sign an agreement to simplify their border by exchanging 162 enclaves.


----------



## Eulanthe

Old German-Polish border crossing in Frankfurt (Oder). This photo is notable because it shows the presence of two lines leading to the border - one for EU citizens and one for non-EU citizens. The distinction here was dropped in 2002 (at the latest) - and only one line was used. The second (non-EU line in this picture) was closed. I'm not sure when the first picture dates from - it's from the older East German era crossing, however. As the EU didn't exist until 1st November 1993, I can only narrow the date down to between 1993 and 2002. 



















The above picture dates from 2002, and shows the "new" (now demolished) border crossing there. The distinction between EU and non-EU traffic has been dropped, and the whole border area is rather confusingly designed.


----------



## SRC_100

^^
I think the first photo could be taken around 95'.


----------



## Eulanthe

I've found this - http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/n...dtbrücke-nach-polen-1998-news-photo/545042677 - which seems to suggest that the "new" border crossing was being built in 1998. 

It looks like they dropped the "EU" and "Non-EU" lines when building the new crossing - which in itself is rather quite odd as Poland's entry into the EU wasn't considered to be happening until around 2002 or so. 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...?uselang=de#/media/File:Zollkontrolle-ffo.jpg

This picture shows the new crossing - but does anyone have any idea what that "box" on the left of the car might be for? I've seen them in person as well as in photographs, and I still can't figure out what they might have been used for.


----------



## Palance

And some some pics of the era before 1989 please


----------



## Eulanthe

With pleasure 

http://fotopolska.eu/298156,foto.html?o=b30993

This shows the Polish control on the Polish side of the bridge. From my research, I found out that the bridge was only opened for visa-free travel between 1972 and 1980. Otherwise, traffic had to go via Świecko - unless you had special permission or an invitation from the other side.

As far as I know, the control shown on the picture was a sort of "first line" control - with full controls being carried out on the German side by both East Germany and Poland.

https://youtu.be/0sI0Amv3Z8k?t=353 - this shows the controls at the end of September 1990, just before German unification and the end of visa-free travel for Polish citizens. Traffic apparently dropped off heavily after that, with normal amounts of traffic only resuming in April 1991 when Poland regained visa-free access to Germany. 

I don't have anything else to hand showing the actual controls prior to 1989, unfortunately. But I think they more or less looked like in the picture - except without car traffic.


----------



## Singidunum

Hungary considering building a fence on the border with Serbia to stop illegal immigration from Syria, Afghanistan etc.

http://www.rts.rs/page/stories/ci/s...Мађарској,+заштитна+ограда+према+Србији?.html


----------



## italystf

SRC_100 said:


> ^^
> I think the first photo could be taken around 95'.


Cars look like very early 90s. You can still spot a Trabant :lol:
2002 car fleet would be more modern, with probably only 20-30% cars like the ones in the photo.


----------



## volodaaaa

I have never seen drivers respecting the EU/non-EU distinction.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Cars look like very early 90s. You can still spot a Trabant :lol:


I saw plenty of Trabants in Hungary in 1996.


----------



## Alex_ZR

You can spot Trabant and Wartburg in Hungary even today.


----------



## Verso

Just another boring European border...


----------



## italystf

I once spotted a Trabant in Prague last summer, but it was clearly kept as a vintage vehicle to display outside a public establishment, and not for everyday use.


----------



## Singidunum

Backi Breg border crossing customs officers were arrested today.

This was found in their stash


----------



## BlackC

Verso said:


> Just another boring European border...


Wow, what's happening there ?
They are attacking the truck it seems ?


----------



## Verso

Illegal immigrants trying to get from France into the UK (the truck happens to be from my city).


----------



## ElviS77

^^

Sorry, more OT: In Sweden he's still called Medel-Svensson (Average Svensson). In Norway, he's Ola Nordmann, which I find marginally more interesting. "Ola" is, of course, a traditional Norwegian name, and "Nordmann" means Norwegian. However, Norman is also a fairly common surname...


----------



## italystf

Kanadzie said:


> I always hear against economic migrants, but why not let economic migrants? They want to work, they want to buy, it would grow the economy and improve everyone's life.
> I understand the refugee / legal immigration, but maybe the problem is similar to the American, where the legal path to immigration is absurdly complex, slow, expensive and liable to outright failure - so everyone jumps over the fence instead.
> 
> I feel like I should be able to live in any country in the world that I want to without any restriction at all.


The problem is that the number of jobs available even in rich countries is not unlimited, especially in those years of crisis. While there are many natives struggling for years to get a job, I don't see how we can provide jobs to a theorically unlimited number of immigrants.
When an immigrant arrives here, he needs some money to live. If he doesn't manage to get a job, he has three "options":
1) abusing the welfare system;
2) starting an illegal activity (stealing, selling drugs,...);
3) begging and being a homeless in the street.
The first two "options" are undesirable for obvious reasons, while the third one gives the immigrant a very bad life, probably as bad or worse than the one he used to live in his poor homecountry (providing he wasn't prosecuted or involved in a war, otherwise he would qualify for asylum and that's another story).
You can thus realize that a law, like the one in Italy, that allows foreigners (non EU citizens and non asylum seekers) to live there only if they have a job contract here, makes perfectly sense.

What rich countries should do, is to invest money to improve life in poorer countries, by building schools, hospitals, houses, infrastructures ,or funding projects to improve agriculture and provide services like running drinkable water, sewage, electricity and communication networks. Those poor people would rather get a better life in their homecountry, instead of sell whatever they have, cross the desert by foot, jump in an old boat that may sink at any moment, risk to be arrested, and finally become a homeless in an European city.
Instead, we are keeping exploiting poor countries for their natural resources and cheap labour, we support their dictators if they make our interests, and we bomb them if they don't make our interests.

Sorry for the long OT.


----------



## volodaaaa

italystf said:


> The problem is that the number of jobs available even in rich countries is not unlimited, especially in those years of crisis. While there are many natives struggling for years to get a job, I don't see how we can provide jobs to a theorically unlimited number of immigrants.
> When an immigrant arrives here, he needs some money to live. If he doesn't manage to get a job, he has three "options":
> 1) abusing the welfare system;
> 2) starting an illegal activity (stealing, selling drugs,...);
> 3) begging and being a homeless in the street.
> The first two "options" are undesirable for obvious reasons, while the third one gives the immigrant a very bad life, probably as bad or worse than the one he used to live in his poor homecountry (providing he wasn't prosecuted or involved in a war, otherwise he would qualify for asylum and that's another story).
> You can thus realize that a law, like the one in Italy, that allows foreigners (non EU citizens and non asylum seekers) to live there only if they have a job contract here, makes perfectly sense.
> 
> What rich countries should do, is to invest money to improve life in poorer countries, by building schools, hospitals, houses, infrastructures ,or funding projects to improve agriculture and provide services like running drinkable water, sewage, electricity and communication networks. Those poor people would rather get a better life in their homecountry, instead of sell whatever they have, cross the desert by foot, jump in an old boat that may sink at any moment, risk to be arrested, and finally become a homeless in an European city.
> Instead, we are keeping exploiting poor countries for their natural resources and cheap labour, we support their dictators if they make our interests, and we bomb them if they don't make our interests.
> 
> Sorry for the long OT.


Exactly my opinion. I would just like to add something. If we made embassies in charge of accepting applications for an asylum, the emigrants would not have to cross whole continents and oceans to get asylum (and risk their lives). 

And to skip back to IBC thread. The current EU policy negates whole Schengen system. The very recent re-establishment of checks on borders with Italy is a suitable proof.


----------



## MichiH

italystf said:


> What rich countries should do, is to invest money to improve life in poorer countries, by building schools, hospitals, houses, infrastructures ,or funding projects to improve agriculture and provide services like running drinkable water, sewage, electricity and communication networks.


Sounds logical. I also thought so. But if buying food - e.g. from US - is much cheaper than grow and harvest food...........


----------



## Autostädter

italystf said:


> What rich countries should do, is to invest money to improve life in poorer countries


This is being done, but the real problem is the corruption of the elites and dysfunctional societies. Some African countries are incredibly rich in natural resources but the money goes into only a few people's pockets. Wonder how that could be fixed. I sometimes get the feeling that people in those countries moan about the situation but wait for others to solve their problems instead of doing something against it themselves.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ I think the aid in cash that has been done for so long has only hurt those countries by removing accountability to the elites and government. If people paid all costs of government via taxes, they would be more inclined to demand better value for dollar, whereas if foreign aid supplies most of the budget, it is seen as "free". Look how African countries love _Depp Blatter_ because he gave them a soccer stadium :lol:

Poor countries are poor only because their society and government structure is bad and not from any inherent natural reason (look how many resource-rich countries are desperately poor, while countries without any resources whatever manage to be wealthy, like Switzerland, Japan or Israel)
Maybe just need to export advice instead of dollars


----------



## italystf

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ I think the aid in cash that has been done for so long has only hurt those countries by removing accountability to the elites and government. If people paid all costs of government via taxes, they would be more inclined to demand better value for dollar, whereas if foreign aid supplies most of the budget, it is seen as "free". Look how African countries love _Depp Blatter_ because he gave them a soccer stadium :lol:


Moreover, aids in cash to poor countries may end up in the wrong pockets (i.e. in the hands of local corrupt elites), while a new school, hospital, drinking water pipeline or power plant would directly benefit local population.


----------



## italystf

Currently Italian police is doing random checks at the borders with Austria and Slovenia to catch illegal immigrants.

Local news headlines: "*Friuli Venezia Giulia *(Italian region bordering A and SLO), *suspends Schengen agreement*" :lol:
Like an Italian region had the power to suspend an international agreement...
The presence of police at Schengen borders to stop suspect people isn't against Schengen. Only systematic controls are.
I'm surprised that news channels publish such ignorant and misleading headlines.


----------



## Eulanthe

ChrisZwolle (and others)- do you remember that I mentioned some sort of inland checkpoint at Neum that exist(ed)? 

I've found some references here to it - https://www.lonelyplanet.com/thornt...e-the-caucasus/topics/sariavo-to-neum/compact - it seems that some sort of checkpoint definitely existed on the inland road between Neum and Mostar. I'm not sure if it still exists, but I'll try and check this summer. It may explain why BiH barely bothers to control Neum 1/2 if they also have an additional checkpoint in Neum.


----------



## Verso

Looks like Bosnians are building a new road there.


----------



## nestvaran

Eulanthe said:


> ChrisZwolle (and others)- do you remember that I mentioned some sort of inland checkpoint at Neum that exist(ed)?
> 
> I've found some references here to it - https://www.lonelyplanet.com/thornt...e-the-caucasus/topics/sariavo-to-neum/compact - it seems that some sort of checkpoint definitely existed on the inland road between Neum and Mostar. I'm not sure if it still exists, but I'll try and check this summer. It may explain why BiH barely bothers to control Neum 1/2 if they also have an additional checkpoint in Neum.


I've never heard of that :dunno: There are definitely no crossings on the road to inland Bosnia (well actually Herzegovina )


Verso said:


> Looks like Bosnians are building a new road there.


Yes, new Neum-Stolac road is currently under construction


----------



## pyramidxx

Very news:: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33168125 http://www.dw.de/hungary-to-erect-anti-migrant-border-fence/a-18522563 Hungary start building a border fence to stop immigration!!!No more waiting on EU laws!Don't know if this will stop invasion from Syria,Iraq,Africa..


----------



## italystf

pyramidxx said:


> Very news:: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33168125 http://www.dw.de/hungary-to-erect-anti-migrant-border-fence/a-18522563 Hungary start building a border fence to stop immigration!!!No more waiting on EU laws!Don't know if this will stop invasion from Syria,Iraq,Africa..


This is not against EU laws, as the Hungarian-Serbian border is the outer EU\Schengen border and Schengen states must patroll it. Spain already built a fence on the border with Morocco, and Greece did the same at the Turkish border.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Looks like Bosnians are building a new road there.


I have a paper road map of Croazia from probably around 2006-2007 and there is already a road from Neum to the rest of BiH.
Side note: the map shows Croatian A1 dashed till the MNE border and "opening 2008". :nuts:


----------



## ethanjosiah

Recently I traveled into Canada from the United States via the Blue Water Bridge and back into the United States via the Queenston-Lewiston Bridge. It is a very simple process to cross the border. All that was required was presenting our passports and telling our travel plans and then we drove on through. It felt just like stopping at a toll booth except that we were crossing in between two countries. It was a new experience coming from New Zealand where the only way to leave the country is to cross over an ocean.

Aside from the actual border crossing the biggest clue we were in Canada was the roads. In Michigan the freeways were far more bumpy and had a concrete surface, whereas the freeways we drove on through Ontario were super smooth asphalt.


----------



## haddockman

The last 2 times I have travelled into Romania at OTP there have been FOREX people watching the border police check passports. One time it was German police and the next time it was French.

Anyone know what is going on?


----------



## nestvaran

italystf said:


> I have a paper road map of Croazia from probably around 2006-2007 and there is already a road from Neum to the rest of BiH.


Ofcourse there's an existing road already but it's pretty curvy and narrow, so a new one is UC


----------



## darko06

Quote italystf:

"I have a paper road map of Croazia from probably around 2006-2007 and there is already a road from Neum to the rest of BiH.
Side note: the map shows Croatian A1 dashed till the MNE border and "opening 2008"."

Obviously Croats were far too optimistic then...


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> I have a paper road map of Croazia from probably around 2006-2007 and there is already a road from Neum to the rest of BiH.


That road is drawn (as paved) on my map of Yugoslavia.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> That road is drawn (as paved) on my map of Yugoslavia.


As far as I know, there was nothing wrong with that road as such - only that it was typically Bosnian - slow and twisty. But it has been paved for years as far as I know. 



nestvaran said:


> I've never heard of that. There are definitely no crossings on the road to inland Bosnia (well actually Herzegovina )


I found other references somewhere, but I can't find them now. It's a mystery - I can't find any references in local languages to it at all.


----------



## alserrod

In the last Irun picture, right brigde is for the metric gauge railway?


----------



## VITORIA MAN

yes, it is
903 en 2 estados by MACD 3, en Flickr
Cruzando el internacional puente del Bidasoa by Álvaro García Moreno, en Flickr








http://cloud1.todocoleccion.net/postales-guipuzcoa/tc/2014/05/19/21/43406966.jpg








http://cloud1.todocoleccion.net/postales-guipuzcoa/tc/2014/02/18/12/41664197.jpg
















http://images-00.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/312/466/628_001.jpg


----------



## VITORIA MAN

....








http://p1.storage.canalblog.com/19/56/515122/59325829.jpg








http://www.oroitza-histoire-d-henda...kn-Pont_international_de_chemin_de_fer_1_.jpg








http://images-02.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/302/432/839_001.jpg
Topo by firedmanager, en Flickr








https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3300/3655829197_24398c004c.jpg


----------



## BL2

Border Susak (Kingdom Yugoslavia) - Fiume (today Rijeka) Kingdom Italy














































The border is shown with doted line 



















Today it is just part of town Rijeka


----------



## BL2

Drenova border Kingdom Yugoslavia - Kingdom Italy


----------



## BL2

Zamet YU - ITA


----------



## BL2

Again Susak, Kingdom Yugoslavi - (Fiume) Rijeka, Kingdom Italy


----------



## BL2

same place carabinieri post Rijeka


----------



## BL2

Border in Rijeka Yu - Ita










today


----------



## OulaL

EU stars in Andorra sign?


----------



## alserrod

Yes they do (if you say me that it is because they have asked all traffic signs to any Spanish company and it includes the entrance to AD and later nobody bothers... I will trust it)


----------



## VITORIA MAN

caya, p-e border








https://oeconomistaport.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/caiafronteira.jpg








http://www.imprensaregional.com.pt/linhasdeelvas/~media/downloads/8997.big.jpg
http://www.portalalentejano.com/wp-content/2009/08/fronteira_caia.jpg








http://cloud1.todocoleccion.net/postales-badajoz/tc/2014/12/29/11/46969141.jpg








http://images.delcampe.com/img_large/auction/000/093/145/535_001.jpg
Fronteira do Caia/Badajoz! by Helena Alves, en Flickr


----------



## alserrod

A little detail.... I do not remember but I think that all Spanish border signals had the text "Aduana/Douane".

And... I do not know why they didn't write in Portuguese when there were much more passes


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Between Switzerland and Italy*


Sunset over Lake Lugano by Jonatan, on Flickr


----------



## VITORIA MAN

vilar formoso (P)








http://images.delcampe.com/img_large/auction/000/084/718/518_001.jpg
http://images-00.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/302/529/692_001.jpg
















http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-04QLaankZ...OjPiKT47pM0/s400/Vilar+formoso+-+Portugal.jpg








http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/88188/fronteira_de_vilar_formoso.jpg


----------



## VITORIA MAN

....








http://www.plusesmas.com/escudos_po...la_y_leon_salamanca_fuentes_de_onoro_0001.jpg








http://images-01.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/299/104/473_001.jpg








http://images-02.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/300/915/739_001.jpg


----------



## VITORIA MAN

valenca do minho (P)








http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pVacVZpFS...s/2Oad4_7hJ1Q/s1600/Ptenternauguracion066.jpg








http://images-02.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/312/774/802_001.jpg








http://cloud1.todocoleccion.net/fotografia-antigua-gelatinobromuro/tc/2013/11/18/17/40033223.jpg








http://www.noticiasvigo.es/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/frontera-tuy-policia.jpg








http://academiafernandesfao.pt/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/AMV.png


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> A little detail.... I do not remember but I think that all Spanish border signals had the text "Aduana/Douane".
> 
> And... I do not know why they didn't write in Portuguese when there were much more passes


From a text point of view, it's much easier to put Aduana/Douane on a sign than the alternative. I know that the E/AND border has Duana/Aduana on the signs, however.

I wonder why a standard sign didn't develop in Europe to indicate a border crossing, however? 

Poland uses both Cło/Zoll and Kontrola Graniczna on signs - as far as I know, the first one should only be present when there are Customs controls being carried out, while the latter should be used to indicate a border control. But it seems that post-2004, the Cło/Zoll sign vanished and wasn't replaced on signs with the Kontrola Graniczna sign.


----------



## alserrod

Edit:

In the AND/E border, there is no "Duana" /Douane/Aduana/... but only "policia" with the same sign

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4351...4!1sEHoiiTjxTgmUDnEd8NBvyg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Edit again

Have checked

In the same border, in the Andorran side there is no signs. Only "stop"

The F/AND border seems to have new booths. You have pictures in google. No signs (still) in both sides
Obviously, no signs in the Os de Civis road border


And... entering from Spain, in the first corner

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4361...100&h=80&yaw=77.095146&pitch=0!7i13312!8i6656

Written in Catalan: "You are in Andorran land. Welcome. Tourism union ****" (I cannot read the last word)

In the right side of the picture, an add besides the road. They are forbidden in Spain at least (adds besides main roads). 
The bank that appears there is the main sponsor of the basketball team in Andorra.


----------



## Eulanthe

No no, you're looking in the wrong place.  The place with the police controls is a joint control between AND and E, but at that point, only Andorra carries out Customs checks. 










This is the Spanish customs hut, which is quite a bit south of the Spanish police controls on the actual border. Here's a link to Street View - but be careful, because there's also pictures from 2009 and 2011 there (when the interior of the Customs hut was quite different).

Duana/Aduana

If you play around, you can get it to show you the unobscured Duana/Aduana sign. 

Yes - AND/F now have a joint facility, and the previous AND and F facilities have been demolished completely. What makes the AND/F crossing so strange is that there seems to be next to no recognition that it's actually a border crossing - there's no signs informing you that the French Police Aux Frontieres are there, there's no signs telling you that this is the window for the French exit checks, nothing. 

From what I can tell from Google and Youtube, the first building (direction F->AND) is for the use of the French, while Andorra uses the other two for their customs and police checks. But it seems very odd that the French don't even bother to show that it's a border crossing in any way - yet it's listed as one with the European Union.

The old French-only border crossing had signs for both police and customs - here

Although I'm now confused, because it seems that the Andorran Duana were also present at the old French crossing, but the police were definitely at Pas de la Casa. Yet at the old French crossing, there's also an office for the Andorran police. I'm confused - because Street View clearly shows the old Andorran police hut at the border line in Pas de la Casa. What's even stranger is that the French Police aux Frontieres don't have any presence - is this a clear sign that the French aren't conducting immigration checks on the AND border?


----------



## Corvinus

alserrod said:


> A little detail.... I do not remember but I think that all Spanish border signals had the text "Aduana/Douane".
> 
> And... I do not know why they didn't write in Portuguese when there were much more passes


Hm... in other parts of Europe: as far as I could observe, Hungary put(s) the neighbouring country's language on the customs signs, so there were "Vám/Zoll", "Vám/Vama", "Vám/Carina" signs (today, only SRB and UA border are customs borders). 
Hungary's neighbours, however, did not have Hungarian as second language on the signs. They have been mostly using "Douane" as 2nd language.

(But maybe somebody out here has a counter-example?)


----------



## BL2

^^ sign at the Serbian / Hungarian border at Horgos, from Serbian side. 



















Cyrillic


----------



## BL2

Old sign in Bosnia, with custom and stop police


----------



## volodaaaa

We use Clo/Zoll although the second one should be in language of another country. Border crossing with Ukraine. Zoll is German.









What does it mean Douane and why it is spread on Balkan?


----------



## eucitizen

Douane is custom in french.


----------



## Kanadzie

I always wonder the language they will speak to you at the customs place. I would imagine a sign "DOUANE" to imply they would speak French if you asked...

I know at the US/Canada border, the Canadian side will always speak English and French, but I think the US side will never speak French (at least not well at all) which could be issue for the French-speaking side of Canada...


----------



## Alex_ZR

"Customs" in French is widespread maybe because in the past it was _lingua franca_. Driving licenses used to have inscription in French:










Old Yugoslav passports had text in Serbo-Croatian and French too.


----------



## alserrod

In Western Europe it could be also because for any trip you made by road between countries... it was quite possible to cross a French speaking country (mainly France, obviously)


----------



## Eulanthe

Kanadzie said:


> I always wonder the language they will speak to you at the customs place. I would imagine a sign "DOUANE" to imply they would speak French if you asked...


I was spoken to in Polish by Hungarian border guards once which was quite odd.

At least in the Balkans, I use Polish to talk to them. And Germans, solely because it's funny to watch them struggle with very basic Polish words. But Polish works fine in Slavic speaking countries (except Bulgaria and Macedonia) for the purposes of talking to border guards. 

As for Clo on Slovakian borders - I found this absurdity - 










I wonder how many Polish speakers would see "Clo" on a sign and not just instantly read "Cło" anyway?

(maybe a stupid question, but in Czechoslovakia, were road signs bilingual?)


----------



## TommyLopez

Eulanthe said:


> I was spoken to in Polish by Hungarian border guards once which was quite odd.
> 
> At least in the Balkans, I use Polish to talk to them. And Germans, solely because it's funny to watch them struggle with very basic Polish words. But Polish works fine in Slavic speaking countries (except Bulgaria and Macedonia) for the purposes of talking to border guards.
> 
> As for Clo on Slovakian borders - I found this absurdity -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how many Polish speakers would see "Clo" on a sign and not just instantly read "Cło" anyway?
> 
> (maybe a stupid question, but in Czechoslovakia, were road signs bilingual?)


^^ Road signs in former Czechoslovakia were in Czech in the Czech part of the federation (today´s Czech Republic) and in Slovak in the Slovak part (today´s Slovakia), they are bilingual (for example names of the towns/villages/local names) in both countries only in the border regions with higher percentage of another local spoken language - Czech/German/Polish in the Czech R. and Slovak/Hungarian/Rusyn (not sure if anything else) in Slovakia


----------



## aubergine72

Former Bulgarian-Romanian border at Krumovo, near Varna, in 1940.

Bulgarian troops taking a picture with the border stone which will be dismantled per the Craiova treaty returning Southern Dobrudja to Bulgaria. 



















Romanian troops waiting for the order to vacate the border area










Last picture with Bulgarian and Romanian border troops right before transfer.


----------



## aubergine72

A Bulgarian traveler somewhere along the Iraq-Iran border in 1935.


----------



## Eulanthe

TommyLopez said:


> ^^ Road signs in former Czechoslovakia were in Czech in the Czech part of the federation (today´s Czech Republic) and in Slovak in the Slovak part (today´s Slovakia), they are bilingual (for example names of the towns/villages/local names) in both countries only in the border regions with higher percentage of another local spoken language - Czech/German/Polish in the Czech R. and Slovak/Hungarian/Rusyn (not sure if anything else) in Slovakia


Maybe this is a stupid question as well, but I've always wondered - are there any bilingual Czech/Slovak towns/villages?


----------



## x-type

Corvinus said:


> Hm... in other parts of Europe: as far as I could observe, Hungary put(s) the neighbouring country's language on the customs signs, so there were "Vám/Zoll", "Vám/Vama", "Vám/Carina" signs (today, only SRB and UA border are customs borders).
> Hungary's neighbours, however, did not have Hungarian as second language on the signs. They have been mostly using "Douane" as 2nd language.
> 
> (But maybe somebody out here has a counter-example?)


i am almost sure that i saw Vám/Zoll border crossing Berzence/Gola with HR.

edit: i saw good.
https://www.google.hr/maps/@46.1948...4!1sqkNz1tcVz3kw6cyADbUXAw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## Eulanthe

If you look at the Street View there of the actual border crossing from Croatia to Hungary, you can see that when the car gets checked on the Hungarian side, there's a guy sitting in a booth to the right of the car. But the lane is closed, so what's he doing there?


----------



## haddockman

https://www.google.es/maps/@43.9658...1vZO9TmAWAoZJ4vp8nQA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
On the Romanian/Bulgarian border they seem to use the Romanian Vama with the Douane sign. No sign of any Cyrillic for the Bulgarian speakers.


----------



## Moravian

Cieszyn - river Olza:


----------



## Moravian

Cesky Tesin (CZ) from Cieszyn (Poland):


----------



## Moravian

Chyzne (Poland) - National road No.7:


----------



## Moravian

Poland/Slovakia border: Chyzne/Trstena


----------



## Moravian

Folkestone (Eurotunnel):


----------



## x-type

Moravian said:


> Cesky Tesin (CZ) from Cieszyn (Poland):


this is only one-way border crossing (from PL to CZ). 
second Olše bridge is more to the east, and direction signs are almost non-existant, in both CZ and PL parts.


----------



## Eulanthe

x-type said:


> this is only one-way border crossing (from PL to CZ).
> second *Olše *bridge is more to the east, and direction signs are almost non-existant, in both CZ and PL parts.


Olza!  Locals don't use the Olše name - it was "forced" on the area by the central Czechoslovak authorities. Cieszyn is beautiful, but Cesky Tesin is a wasteland. It's a common theme with Polish/Czech border towns - the Polish side tends to look a lot nicer than the Czech side.

Some Poles told me that it's because Czechslovakia located heavy industry close to the border, but I'm not sure if it's true or not. 

I've found a nice little strange border crossing in Croatia that appears to be closed - https://www.google.com/maps/@45.211...4!1s8zjP6jcwEZq2RInR5uvR2w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I'll go look next month, it seems to be yet another example of a location where the border really should be open.


----------



## Moravian

It has been quite sensitive story.....No need to open it.....Yes, locally the river name Olza is used....Cieszyn is definitely nice because of the fact that the historical center of the former common town is part of Cieszyn......Cesky Tesin is mostly a new town buit up after 1920. At the very beginning - there was just the important railway station on the railroad Kosice-Bohumin. However you can find some nice places in Cesky Tesin too as well - for example new town hall and streets buit up in 30s.....The whole region round Ostrava and Karvina /like Katowice/ has been based on coal mining and heavy industry........with all consequences.... 




Eulanthe said:


> Olza!  Locals don't use the Olše name - it was "forced" on the area by the central Czechoslovak authorities. Cieszyn is beautiful, but Cesky Tesin is a wasteland. It's a common theme with Polish/Czech border towns - the Polish side tends to look a lot nicer than the Czech side.
> 
> Some Poles told me that it's because Czechslovakia located heavy industry close to the border, but I'm not sure if it's true or not.
> 
> I've found a nice little strange border crossing in Croatia that appears to be closed - https://www.google.com/maps/@45.211...4!1s8zjP6jcwEZq2RInR5uvR2w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> I'll go look next month, it seems to be yet another example of a location where the border really should be open.


----------



## piotr71

Eulanthe said:


> Olza!  Locals don't use the Olše name - it was "forced" on the area by the central Czechoslovak authorities. Cieszyn is beautiful, but Cesky Tesin is a wasteland. It's a common theme with Polish/Czech border towns - the Polish side tends to look a lot nicer than the Czech side.
> 
> Some Poles told me that it's because Czechslovakia located heavy industry close to the border, but I'm not sure if it's true or not.
> 
> I've found a nice little strange border crossing in Croatia that appears to be closed - https://www.google.com/maps/@45.211...4!1s8zjP6jcwEZq2RInR5uvR2w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> I'll go look next month, it seems to be yet another example of a location where the border really should be open.


I do not know when you've been to Cieszyn/Tesin last time, but currently anything out of the town square in Polish part of the town looks just ugly, really ugly. Last 2 decades made this place complete bucket of junk with poor modern architecture, no planning at all, thousands of shitty billboards and banners all over the place and dirty houses in the town centre. Cieszyn is slowly but steadily loosing its historical advantage over its Czech counterpart and my heart cries when I am walking from Tesin to the other side of the river. I would not recommend to visit this place to anybody, any more, as I used to do in the past.


----------



## Eulanthe

I hope that the law signed by Komorowski not so long ago about advertising will finally put a stop to the mess in Poland. It's the sole thing that makes CZ far superior to PL, and it strikes me every single time when crossing the border to anywhere that the problem is just out of control in Poland.

But Cieszyn is still very nice in general - it really has potential, but only if the Silesian provincial authorities wake up and actually get something done there. But I don't understand why the Czech authorities have allowed such a mess in Tesin - places such as Jablunkov and Trinec are quite nice (even with the heavy industry in Trinec), but Tesin is just a complete disaster, especially close to the train station. 

Having said that, the border area around Karvina is very, very nice on both sides of the border. I'm very fond of the whole area stretching from Ostrava all the way down to the Slovak border, even with the heavy industry around.

Is there a name in Czech that broadly reflects the Zaolzie idea in Polish?


----------



## Moravian

Is there a name in Czech that broadly reflects the Zaolzie idea in Polish?[/QUOTE]

Nothing special...Zaolší or Zaolzí......The issue of Těšín /1920, 1938, 1945/..And in general - Těšínsko or Těšínské Slezsko for the whole region between Frydek and Bielsko (or at least for Zaolzie)...The fact is that Zaolzie is part of Karvina and Frydek-Mistek district (and sure City of Ostrava)....There was no one common district of Český Těšín....


----------



## stickedy

Eulanthe said:


> I've found a nice little strange border crossing in Croatia that appears to be closed - https://www.google.com/maps/@45.211...4!1s8zjP6jcwEZq2RInR5uvR2w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> I'll go look next month, it seems to be yet another example of a location where the border really should be open.


That's the border to BiH! It's not really surprising that it's closed... Like so many other local roads between former Yugoslavian states.


----------



## italystf

x-type said:


> this is only one-way border crossing (from PL to CZ).
> second Olše bridge is more to the east, and direction signs are almost non-existant, in both CZ and PL parts.


Are there other one-way border crossings in existence?

I know this one, between Italy and Switzerland, but since there are two opposite one-way streets very close each other, it works as a two-lane street (even if the two directions have different street names).


----------



## Eulanthe

stickedy said:


> That's the border to BiH! It's not really surprising that it's closed... Like so many other local roads between former Yugoslavian states.


But look at it, it doesn't look like a typical "closed" ex-Yugoslav crossing. The BiH side has the town name, and there's a hut there with a Croatian flag. It looks rather like an ex-border crossing that's now been closed.

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.2106618,15.8148543,275m/data=!3m1!1e3

Look here - you can see the BiH hut too. It looks clearly like the border crossing has been there at some point and now has been closed, but not so recently (the flagpole is rusted, so it's obviously been quite a while). There's something similar in Metković, so I wonder if there were many more HR-BiH crossings in the past that have now been closed?

Next mystery - where is this? 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JmqGyILutSM/T5OSbNkvksI/AAAAAAAAAtI/gOn_n0oFTV0/s1600/DSC04771.JPG

It's apparently somewhere near Dubrovnik on the border with BiH, but it's not the Brgat / Ivanica crossing.


----------



## Corvinus

x-type said:


> i am almost sure that i saw Vám/Zoll border crossing Berzence/Gola with HR.
> 
> edit: i saw good.
> https://www.google.hr/maps/@46.1948...4!1sqkNz1tcVz3kw6cyADbUXAw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Indeed it's not Carina on the sign ... good capture! Chances are the sign is still there for real (there are distance signs for Austrian towns still including "Vám/Zoll", 10 years after EU ascension).
Maybe there is a significant German population in this area (like around Pécs), therefore "Zoll".

So now we only need a counter-example of the other type ("Vám" in a sign of a neighbouring country).


----------



## GROBIN

These 3 pics aren't mine, but I've recently crossed those 2 borders (between 2 sides of the new iron curtain):
The Lavoriškės (LT) / Katłoŭka (Катлоўка) (BY) border crossing, on the Belarusian side:

















The Kamienny Łoh (Каменны Лог) (BY) / Medininkai (LT) border crossing: view from the Belarusian side over the Lithuanian one.


----------



## stickedy

Eulanthe said:


> But look at it, it doesn't look like a typical "closed" ex-Yugoslav crossing. The BiH side has the town name, and there's a hut there with a Croatian flag. It looks rather like an ex-border crossing that's now been closed.
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/@45.2106618,15.8148543,275m/data=!3m1!1e3
> 
> Look here - you can see the BiH hut too. It looks clearly like the border crossing has been there at some point and now has been closed, but not so recently (the flagpole is rusted, so it's obviously been quite a while). There's something similar in Metković, so I wonder if there were many more HR-BiH crossings in the past that have now been closed?


Hmm, maybe the crossing is much older. Look a few pictures before: https://goo.gl/maps/4eZbx There are works on the booth but neither the booth nor the flag look new on booth pictures. And obviously it was already closed while there were works. Look at the plants on the bridge. The pictures were made in 2011.

The region around Velika Kladusa was some kind of special region back in war times since the local Bosniak leader there had a special agreement with the Serbs. Maybe it's an old crossing from those times with the Republic of Serbian Krajina and was closed later on by Croatia. 



> Next mystery - where is this?
> 
> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JmqGyILutSM/T5OSbNkvksI/AAAAAAAAAtI/gOn_n0oFTV0/s1600/DSC04771.JPG
> 
> It's apparently somewhere near Dubrovnik on the border with BiH, but it's not the Brgat / Ivanica crossing.


It's at Neum: https://goo.gl/maps/LC94h


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Usumacinta River, Guatemala (Right) and Mexico (Left)*


Navegando el Usumacinta by Guillén Pérez, on Flickr


----------



## TommyLopez

Eulanthe said:


> Maybe this is a stupid question as well, but I've always wondered - are there any bilingual Czech/Slovak towns/villages?


Nope, they are not, the Czech-Slovak country border is also strictly the language border. Btw, my friends in Silesia region use the name Olše normally, not Olza


----------



## volodaaaa

TommyLopez said:


> Nope, they are not, the Czech-Slovak country border is also strictly the language border. Btw, my friends in Silesia region use the name Olše normally, not Olza


Prague e.g.? :lol:

Btw. there are some bilingual-signs about toll obligation written both in Czech or Slovak.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

lauterbourg (F_D)








http://www.photo-alsace.com/2_photo/allemagne/img_1/n63120.jpg
















http://images.delcampe.com/img_large/auction/000/220/816/502_001.jpg
















http://images.delcampe.com/img_large/auction/000/281/472/344_001.jpg


----------



## VITORIA MAN

former f-d border at col de la schlucht








https://thebluelinefrontier.files.w...ol-de-la-schlucht-german-frontier-officer.jpg








http://images-01.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/001/013/327/860_001.jpg?v=2
















https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Col_de_la_Schlucht_2.jpg


----------



## bogdymol

First motorway border crossing between Romania and Hungary opens on Saturday :banana:



pasadia said:


> Some new pictures in an article in roumanian of the border crossing on the new A1/M43 route:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opening on saturday, July 11.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

tolls or border checks ?


----------



## SRC_100

VITORIA MAN said:


> tolls or border checks ?


Border control


----------



## bigic

Because Romania still isn't in Schengen.


----------



## SRC_100

^^
True.
Note that the border posts are temporary or at least look like temporary.


----------



## haddockman

Temporary in that they hope Romania will get into schengen soon. 

Those huts will still be there in 5 years time.


----------



## Corvinus

Systematic border controls may also be temporarily re-activated between two Schengen countries if mandated by exceptional circumstances (typical case: for security reasons during summits involving high-ranking statesmen). 

So building those "light" huts is not a complete waste of money even if RO joins Schengen faster than expected.

Plus, who knows where a review of Schengen regulations will lead, especially with the current flood of illegal immigrants that Europe is receiving. The general absence of person controls could become unmaintainable; there is already heavy pressure from wealthier Schengen regions for allowing more border surveillance.


----------



## alserrod

A little bus service that crosses twice a border...

http://cdn.ter.sncf.com/medias/PDF/aquitaine/63-AFFICHE_25_06_2015_tcm50-9020_tcm50-9019.pdf

In 1970 the railway line Canfranc-Oloron broke down and was replaced (till today) by buses. They replaced by a Canfranc - Oloron bus crossing the Somport mountain pass and through the N-330 in Spain and RN-134 in France

These are (in French) schedules for this summer

http://cdn.ter.sncf.com/medias/PDF/aquitaine/63-AFFICHE_25_06_2015_tcm50-9020_tcm50-9019.pdf

The bus will not depart from Canfranc station but from Somport ski resort in the French side. One minute after (and not more than 1 km away), a call in the mountain pass (called Douane, but there are no customs at all), later it enters in Spain and calls in Canfranc station for transfer to railway or bus through the south... and return Oloron via Somport tunnel

(I guess that a Somport mountain pass-Les Forges d'Abel is faster making a tour via Canfranc and tunnel rather than direct road because they could depart from Canfranc, calling in the pass and going down to Les Forges)

First time it crosses the border is just after departing. Second time is in the Somport tunnel approaching Les Forges d'Abel


----------



## SvMp

haddockman said:


> Temporary in that they hope Romania will get into schengen soon.
> 
> Those huts will still be there in 5 years time.


I hope they will never get into Schengen. To destroy a country, take away it's borders. Schengen is evil.


----------



## bogdymol

Today ciprebbe @ pum uploaded a video regarding the new motorway opening between Arad and the Hungarian border, including the new border crossing.

The new border crossing, seen from above:










Video:


----------



## VITORIA MAN

how big !!!


----------



## bogdymol

Romania and Hungary are now connected by a motorway. The new motorway (on both sides of the border) and the new border crossing are now open :banana:


----------



## bogdymol

:banana:









foto: adevarul.ro


----------



## Corvinus

SvMp said:


> I hope they will never get into Schengen. To destroy a country, take away it's borders. Schengen is evil.


It is not evil _per se_ (on the contrary, I always found it very comfortable to transit Schengen countries w/o border checks). It becomes evil when clueless EU bureaucrats are against effective protection of Schengen (or EU, for that matter) *external *borders.

Effective protection means not allowing masses of illegal border crossers in (be them arriving on land or by sea). Effective protection also means swift expulsion (say within 2-3 days) of unrecognized asylum seekers - instead of feeding them for months while they make extra money with narco-trafficking. Same for any asylum seeker (recognized or not) who commits any offense.




bogdymol said:


> Romania and Hungary are now connected by a motorway. The new motorway (on both sides of the border) and the new border crossing are now open :banana:


Time to plan a Transylvania sightseeing tour!


----------



## cinxxx

Corvinus said:


> Time to plan a Transylvania sightseeing tour!


Don't miss Banat


----------



## bogdymol

Aerial video of the new border crossing between Romania and Hungary:


----------



## AsHalt

I'm guess that void in the middle of the complex is the "provision" for the Schengen by-pass on the expressway on both ends


----------



## Eulanthe

AsHalt said:


> I'm guess that void in the middle of the complex is the "provision" for the Schengen by-pass on the expressway on both ends


Yep, should be easy to convert to Schengen without fuss.

I was thinking about why this border crossing has been built like this, and the only logical thing is that the Schengen Borders Code requires all external international borders to be built according to a set of standards. So the barriers, cameras, etc - Hungary may have been forced to have such things.

But certainly in this case, it would've made sense to route all trucks and non-EU via the old crossing - unless of course, Romania has been told unofficially that Schengen accession simply won't happen in the forseeable future. 

In related news, Croatia started the process of joining Schengen a couple of weeks ago on target. But it will be politically impossible for Croatia to join without Romania and Bulgaria. As for Romania and Bulgaria operating a mini-Schengen between them - it is possible (and I don't think the EU cares) - but Romania may not want to get involved with Bulgaria. All reports are that Romania is ready to join, but there are still huge question marks over Bulgaria.


----------



## Vignole

Congratulations to Arad and Timișoara, now are cities connected to European Motorway Network.


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> Yep, should be easy to convert to Schengen without fuss.
> 
> I was thinking about why this border crossing has been built like this, and the only logical thing is that the Schengen Borders Code requires all external international borders to be built according to a set of standards. So the barriers, cameras, etc - Hungary may have been forced to have such things.
> 
> But certainly in this case, it would've made sense to route all trucks and non-EU via the old crossing - unless of course, Romania has been told unofficially that Schengen accession simply won't happen in the forseeable future.
> 
> In related news, Croatia started the process of joining Schengen a couple of weeks ago on target. But it will be politically impossible for Croatia to join without Romania and Bulgaria. As for Romania and Bulgaria operating a mini-Schengen between them - it is possible (and I don't think the EU cares) - but Romania may not want to get involved with Bulgaria. All reports are that Romania is ready to join, but there are still huge question marks over Bulgaria.


I was thinking of another solution: Romania and Bulgaria both join the Schengen Area, but control on the Bulgarian-Greek border remains.


----------



## stickedy

Verso said:


> I was thinking of another solution: Romania and Bulgaria both join the Schengen Area, but control on the Bulgarian-Greek border remains.


What? Greece is a Schengen country! That would not only make any sense, it would not be impossible at all.


----------



## Verso

And what would actually change for Greece? Nothing, because there's already control on its border with Bulgaria.


----------



## Eulanthe

italystf said:


> Is it really required that RO and BG need to join Schengen together? If one of the two fulfills all requirements earlier, why also the other should wait?


I don't think the RO/BG border meets Schengen standards. 

I've found this - if it really is from the RO/BG border, you can see the work needed to bring it up to standards. But if it becomes obvious that Romania is fine, then I could see the EU asking Romania to bring them upto scratch in exchange for Schengen membership.










Likewise here


----------



## x-type

DanielFigFoz said:


> But surely Romanian Roma can cross the border freely, they are EU citizens. I mean they have to show their ID but can they be denied entry?





Verso said:


> ^^ Exactly, Romanian Roma are EU citizens, so they can already travel freely throughout the EU.
> 
> Western Europeans don't want to open the GR-BG border because of all those immigrants in Greece, so we can at least open the BG-RO and RO-H borders (not that I care too much about them).


do Roma know what ID card is?


----------



## Corvinus

x-type said:


> do Roma know what ID card is?


When they need it to apply for welfare, they most certainly do!

@topic:
Cyprus is the 6th EU country not part of Schengen. What is their reason? Haven't they been admitted, or didn't they want?


----------



## OulaL

cinxxx said:


> ^^For Greece nothing would change.
> It doesn't have any land border with Schengen countries.
> Only by air travel one can take advantage of Schengen (not sure if by boat too).


There are intra-Schengen ferry services between Greece and Italy.


----------



## MichiH

Corvinus said:


> Cyprus is the 6th EU country not part of Schengen. What is their reason?


First, they have to solve a little problem.


----------



## BL2

x-type said:


> do Roma know what ID card is?





Corvinus said:


> When they need it to apply for welfare, they most certainly do!




I see fascism is spreading trough Europe and it is becoming mainstream, before fascist were afraid to state their opinion so publicly.


----------



## JackFrost

^^go google quickly what fascism means, and then come back and tell us what you have learnt.


----------



## BL2

this? or this?

did I google it well?


----------



## JackFrost

^^yes, you did. Youre doing very good. Now explain how this relates to the above posts.

(nah, just kidding, please dont)


----------



## aubergine72

Eulanthe said:


> I think it's more of a theoretical thing - although they can pass freely, there's still the opportunity to check the Schengen Information System in case they're wanted for any crimes. Schengen removes that.
> 
> It's just xenophobia, that's all. Romania is really starting to deal with corruption (unlike Bulgaria - *where scandal after scandal involving traffic police happens*) and really should be in.


What?

Anyway, Romania ain't joining anything without us. Deal with it


----------



## aubergine72

Eulanthe said:


> Likewise here


This is the Romanian crossing at Giurgiu. It's an old picture where everything looks new. Compared to what it looks like now, I'm sure Bangladesh has border crossings that look more civilized than this. :angel:


----------



## Earthchild

The picture is not so old, about 10-15 years ago (look at the Skoda Octavia). By the way, the bridge over the Danube and part of the crossing is under renovation and will be modernized (at last) until the end of the year by Strabag.


----------



## TommyLopez

volodaaaa said:


> Prague e.g.? :lol:
> 
> Btw. there are some bilingual-signs about toll obligation written both in Czech or Slovak.


This is now the only official road sign about tool obligation in the Czech R. in all border crossings









And this will be the new one from January 1, 2016









Both written in German and English only


----------



## bogdymol

^^ From 2016 the expressways will be free for small cars?


----------



## MichiH

^^ Yes, because most of the current expressways will be motorways.


----------



## volodaaaa

ionutz_08 said:


> this is a solution from the dark ages not from the 21 century.btw hungary is in schengen,right? with this number of illegal immigrants in just six months hungary shouldn't be in schengen.but the solution with the fence is just ...... " the best" .......
> 
> http://dailynewshungary.com/history-of-the-iron-curtain-opening/


Can you specify why should Hungary leave the Schengen? And there is a huge difference between Iron Curtain and this fence. Me, as a Schengen area citizen, can cross the border whenever I want, provided I possess all required documents (ID or passport). The same goes for people coming from outside. Iron curtain was erected to prevent citizens to flee from the country. You could have had all possible documents but once you were marked (or at least someone from your family) politically incorrect - you were not allowed to even approach the border.


----------



## MichiH

volodaaaa said:


> Iron curtain was erected to prevent citizens to flee from the country.


Iron Curtain 2.0 is ercted to prevent foreigners to flee into the country.


----------



## volodaaaa

MichiH said:


> Iron Curtain 2.0 is ercted to prevent foreigners to flee into the country.


So if a Serb or Albanian or Ethiopian or whoever with valid passport (and possible visas) wants to cross the border through regular crossing, he will not be allowed? And I though it is illegal to cross the border outside crossing either there is a fence or not (except inner Schengen borders)


----------



## MichiH

^^ Refugees can cross the border but a lot of them will be sent back if they are just asylum-seeker. But yes, if they want to visit Schengen countries as tourists... I think it's worth for vacation but people crossing the border at the locations where the fence is built... Not at border crossings... I don't think they are on business trips or on vacation........

I call it Iron Curtain 2.0 because it's a barrier for people who want to cross the border illegal. Illegal to the laws or will of whomsoever (Schengen countries).


----------



## volodaaaa

MichiH said:


> ^^ Refugees can cross the border but a lot of them will be sent back if they are just asylum-seeker. But yes, if they want to visit Schengen countries as tourists... I think it's worth for vacation but people crossing the border at the locations where the fence is built... Not at border crossings... I don't think they are on business trips or on vacation........
> 
> I call it Iron Curtain 2.0 because it's a barrier for people who want to cross the border illegal. Illegal to the laws or will of whomsoever (Schengen countries).


Your last paragraphs lack logic. It is like saying: I hate jacket, because it prevents me from coldness.

Building "the Iron curtain" was, at least, basic requirement for my country to apply to join Schengen. I think the same went for Hungary.

btw. to skip back into topic:








source: HATÁRfigyelők - Röszke facebook fanpage


----------



## alserrod

How did they manage controls some years ago?


----------



## CSerpent

Hi all

New to SSC and been trawling through the 668 pages of this thread!

At Bayerisch Eisenstein there was a large fence running down where the borderline is now. There are some pictures larger than the one below but they won't link.

land2.leeds.ac.uk/files/2013/09/eisch-3-307x200.jpg

(Can't post the actual picture within the post due to the 10 count limit!)


----------



## alserrod

Welcome

Another question.... how many European countries (apart of Russia) do they have different time zones?


----------



## eucitizen

Russia doesnt follow anymore the summer time, so now the difference is just 1 hour from the CET.
Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Finland, Baltic States,Moldova, UK, Ireland, Iceland Portugal are in different timezone than the CET.


----------



## BL2

different time zones inside one country only in Russia


----------



## eeee.

UK, France, Spain, Portugal, Norway?


----------



## BL2

my god is it so hard to google


----------



## eucitizen

Sure, but mostly european part of Russia has just +1 hour difference from CET in summer. In winter +2.


----------



## MichiH

eeee. said:


> UK, France, Spain, Portugal, Norway?


France, Spain and Portugal have more than one time zone, UK and Norway are entirely within one time zone.


----------



## haddockman

MichiH said:


> France, Spain and Portugal have more than one time zone, UK and Norway are entirely within one time zone.


If you include the Canaries, Azores and the French DOMs.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Exactly


----------



## alserrod

MichiH said:


> France, Spain and Portugal have more than one time zone, UK and Norway are entirely within one time zone.



Considering only Europe (and "not far islands"), UK mainland has GMT in winter and Gibraltar GMT+1

So UK is in the list...


----------



## alserrod

Somport tunnel is cut off to bus and truck since today 8:00 due to an electrical issue.
Cars can cross the tunnel.


----------



## Bzyq_74

eucitizen said:


> Sure, but mostly european part of Russia has just +1 hour difference from CET in summer. In winter +2.


No, +2h in summer and +3h in winter (Moskow timezone), only Kaliningrad has +1h (s) and +2h (w).
(Belarus - +1h in summer and +2 in winter from CET)


----------



## eeee.

MichiH said:


> France, Spain and Portugal have more than one time zone, UK and Norway are entirely within one time zone.


It was actually not a question. I consider Jan Mayen as Norwegian.


----------



## devo

I came her looking for border crossings.


----------



## MichiH

eeee. said:


> It was actually not a question. I consider Jan Mayen as Norwegian.


Sorry, I thought your reply was to this question:



alserrod said:


> Another question.... how many European countries (apart of Russia) do they have different time zones?





MichiH said:


> eeee. said:
> 
> 
> 
> UK, France, Spain, Portugal, Norway?
> 
> 
> 
> France, Spain and Portugal have more than one time zone, UK and Norway are entirely within one time zone.
Click to expand...


----------



## Verso

alserrod said:


> Considering only Europe (and "not far islands"), UK mainland has GMT in winter and Gibraltar GMT+1
> 
> So UK is in the list...


Gibraltar is not a part of the UK.


----------



## CNGL

^^ So Gibraltar is now Spanish? :troll:

And yup, Spain has two time zones: Mainland and Balearic islands, which use UTC+1, and the Canary Islands, which use UTC (I say they use any time zone but UTC, as a parody of the radios saying 'It's that hour, one hour less in the Canaries').


----------



## nbcee

^^Torrente destroyed it in his second movie.


----------



## manteca

The united states have three diferent time zones and mexico two diferent


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## nbcee

manteca said:


> The united states have three diferent time zones and mexico two diferent


I believe it's 4 for the 48 contiguous states, one for Hawaii and one for Palinland.


----------



## aubergine72

manteca said:


> The united states have three diferent time zones and mexico two diferent


Mexico has 4, as well.


----------



## italystf

Micronations along the Serbo-Croatian border: :lol:










The most famous is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberland
But there's also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Ongal
This one was moved from the SLO-HR border to the HR-SRB one, as the land of the first location was actually claimed by Slovenia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Enclava


----------



## volodaaaa

During the last week I crossed several borders and concerning the current situation, here are my insights

HR/SRB Bajakovo - Sid about 9 PM on Monday was okay. Only 10 cars were ahead. The whole procedure took less than 30 minutes.
SRB/MK Presevo Kumanovo about 10 AM on Tuesday was okay. No strange preople. It was matter of half an hour.
MK/GR Gevgelija - Evzoni about 1 PM on Tuesday was okay. Again no strange people

Our media has informed that aforementioned borders are full of refugees trying to break into you car or lorry to get to the other side of border. During the day I spotted four (I mean 4) suspicious people I would not have noticed if the media had not freaked about refugees.


----------



## alserrod

I got it!!!!!


As I have said some times before, for a while after Spanish civil war, it was compulsory having a document just to approach the border.

Today I have been in a small museum dedicated to a person who began as a history teacher, ended as politician but it is mainly known because of his songs (about fifteen LP or so)

In the area of his history, his family set as many documents as they could... and I found this one




which allowed him to stay in Canfranc for summer holidays as usual (his family went always there).


----------



## eucitizen

volodaaaa said:


> During the last week I crossed several borders and concerning the current situation, here are my insights
> 
> HR/SRB Bajakovo - Sid about 9 PM on Monday was okay. Only 10 cars were ahead. The whole procedure took less than 30 minutes.
> SRB/MK Presevo Kumanovo about 10 AM on Tuesday was okay. No strange preople. It was matter of half an hour.
> MK/GR Gevgelija - Evzoni about 1 PM on Tuesday was okay. Again no strange people
> 
> Our media has informed that aforementioned borders are full of refugees trying to break into you car or lorry to get to the other side of border. During the day I spotted four (I mean 4) suspicious people I would not have noticed if the media had not freaked about refugees.


So you see useless paranoia from tabloids media. When I passed there at the beginning of june there were more immigrants, mainly in Macedonia and they were by foot or on bycicle. They didnt try to stop cars. Then Macedonia allowed them to use trains or other public transport so probably they dissapear from road. And anyway they were only on main road and not on motorways.


----------



## bigic

"Fence designed at the Serbian-Hungarian border can fail due to animals"
http://dailynewshungary.com/fence-designed-at-the-serbian-hungarian-border-can-fail-due-to-animals/


----------



## Ale92Milano_SpA

Video crossing the border between Spain and France.

https://youtu.be/HOt0dmEi0M4?t=7m14s


----------



## Palance

Border Croatia-BiH at Gradiška in 1995



















Taken from this video.


----------



## Eulanthe

Continuing on the Bosnia theme, here's something that hasn't been seen very often - a border crossing between the RSK and Western Bosnia (which was under the control of a rebel bunch of Muslims allied to the Serbs). 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkM7_rB3e_Y

It's quite surreal how "normal" the border looks, although the Serbian customs guard in the film looks like something out of a Village People video


----------



## Palance

That should be somewhere around here:



Palance said:


> Maljevac crossing between HR and BiH in 1995 (looking from BiH to HR)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nowadays, a new big crossing exists next to this small road. Part of this road is on Street View.


----------



## Kanadzie

Eulanthe said:


> Continuing on the Bosnia theme, here's something that hasn't been seen very often - a border crossing between the RSK and Western Bosnia (which was under the control of a rebel bunch of Muslims allied to the Serbs).
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkM7_rB3e_Y
> 
> It's quite surreal how "normal" the border looks, although the Serbian customs guard in the film looks like something out of a Village People video


LOL, it's very normal, except when they would normally go to stamp your passport they go and stamp your head :lol:


----------



## stickedy

Palance said:


> I have once read (and there is a newsitem on youtube somewhere) about the reopening of the road between Dubravka (Konavle, Croatia) and Jablan Do on the road Trebinje-Herceg Novi. That crossing hasn't still be opened yet.
> 
> Edit: found it: the border nowadays is to be seen on 1:04
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xnQX6s3LQM


Are there any news about it? Googe Maps indicates that the border crossing is open: https://www.google.de/maps/dir/Grud...6ce51a0!2m2!1d18.3713844!2d42.5176369!1m0!3e0


----------



## Eulanthe

It's not open as far as I know. It wasn't listed in the 2013 agreement between BiH and Croatia, and there hasn't been any new crossings opened to my knowledge. They're still negotiating over reopening Gabela Polje to international traffic, so...

There's a photo on Google Earth that shows the border to be blocked on the BiH side, and the most recent mapping shows the blockage too. 

The problem now with the BiH/HR border is that Schengen doesn't allow the opening of small tourist crossings with non-Schengen states. That means that there needs to be border guards present at every crossing - and the crossings need to comply with Schengen standards too. For that reason, it's pretty much unlikely that many new crossings will open. But I really don't understand why BiH and Croatia didn't agree to open all the local border crossings for BiH+EU traffic - it wouldn't require much extra effort on either part, and some of the local crossings (such as Gabela Polje) aren't too badly equipped.


----------



## Palance

Eulanthe said:


> They're still negotiating over reopening Gabela Polje to international traffic


Gabela Polje is a temporary international crossing until 1st of October 2015 (because of the summer season and the long queues at Doljani crossing).


----------



## alserrod

Somport tunnel (8,1 km under Pyrenees, non-tolled)


from France





and from Spain


----------



## verreme

^^ The French portal is so ugly. Generally speaking, the French have never cared much about this (road&rail) corridor.


----------



## pyramidxx

NEWS: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33729024 Calais migrant crisis: PM offers extra fencing and dogs


----------



## pyramidxx

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/30/us-europe-migrants-balkans-idUSKCN0Q413Y20150730 A Hungarian fence creates new front in Europe's migrant crisis why only young muslims immigrate??where are women and children?? Why they only go to Europe,why not to their rich brothers in Saudi Arabia,Kuwait,Emirates,Qatar,Bahrein???What is this situation??Why borders existing if they pass over without documents,passports??


----------



## Corvinus

pai nosso said:


> P.S.: photo taken while i was being stopped by the portuguese police at the border!!:lol:


Did they give a reason? Or just a general (random) traffic control?


----------



## pai nosso

Corvinus said:


> Did they give a reason? Or just a general (random) traffic control?


They were only stopping portuguese vehicles at the request of the portuguese national survey organization (I.N.E.), that were realizing a survey of how much money the portuguese spend in Spain.

The funny part is that the portuguese drivers when saw the portuguese police and weren`t stopped didn`t care about the situation and began to accelerate away, the spanish drivers when saw the portuguese police almost all of them use their brakes!!:laugh::laugh:


----------



## VITORIA MAN

spend all your money in spain


----------



## pai nosso

VITORIA MAN said:


> spend all your money in spain


Filling the gas tank!!


----------



## alserrod

Say you have gone to hospital or any other services because it is better and nearer. Maybe they improve in that area.....


----------



## VITORIA MAN

there are plenty of spanish flags in valença do minho for that reason 








http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ra7NdVXMs90/VQMPPcYkpUI/AAAAAAAADaM/8aGSmuckXNs/s1600/valen.jpg


----------



## Eulanthe

Latest report 

I went hunting for the best place to see the meteor shower tonight, and went to the Užljebic (HR) – Ripac (BiH) border crossing. The best place nearby was actually next to the BiH crossing - it's just two small huts and a couple of other huts used for storage, nothing more. It was dark, so I couldn't get a good picture of the place, but it was the kind of place where the border police and Customs were sitting around doing exactly nothing 

The HR crossing is also very small (again, two small huts, but bigger than the BiH ones), but they're building a new crossing there too  It doesn't look like the new crossing will be very big, however. 

Passports were scanned in both directions when entering and leaving BiH, but no other documents were requested. It's true about the scanner problems - it took them about 90 seconds to scan two passports. It seems that Green Cards are no longer routinely asked for upon entry into BiH as well. 

Croatia on the other hand was the usual these days - a bored look at the passport and stamps before being handed back. They did ask if I had anything to declare, but that was it. I declared a chair 

The return was equally uneventful - another bored look at the passports by the Croatian police, while the BiH police were friendly. We parked up at the border crossing and watched the shooting stars - so it was perfect.


----------



## Alex_ZR

^^ How many times a year you cross HR-BIH border crossings? Seems like you become expert for those.


----------



## stickedy

Eulanthe said:


> It was dark, so I couldn't get a good picture of the place, but it was the kind of place where the border police and Customs were sitting around doing exactly nothing


It's right in the middle of nowhere 

So, no luck at Martin Brod?


----------



## Eulanthe

stickedy said:


> It's right in the middle of nowhere
> 
> So, no luck at Martin Brod?


It's amazing! I want a job there, it seemed that they were doing nothing but drinking coffee and sitting around! It's a strange border on the BiH side though - three lanes are available in each direction, yet obviously traffic levels don't justify anything other than two small huts. 

I've given up and decided to go to Novi Grad instead, as there's the possibility of some new stamps there  It's too hot to do anything during the day, and there's no point going to Martin Brod at night. 

Alex_ZR - I always end up going to Croatia/Bosnia/Slovenia on holiday, so annoying border guards in this part of the world is part of the holiday 

Something else - I've got pictures on my wife's phone to upload, but I also visited the BiH side of Zeljava Air Base yesterday. No sign of any BiH guards, but the HR guards were around and making it very clear that you shouldn't even think about crossing there.


----------



## Eulanthe

Latest report 

Sadly, no pictures, but... I recommend that everyone should cross the border at Dvor (HR) / Novi Grad (BiH). It's possibly the funniest border crossing in Europe - the Croatians were sitting in their little huts bored out of their skulls (and barely looked at our passports), while the BiH policeman... well. He was sitting on a nice chair in the sun, playing with his phone and not even bothering to inspect anyone's documents to and from BiH. People were driving up and just flashing their documents on exit (he was sitting next to the entry lane), and he was barely looking at them. 

In short, it might as well have been a Schengen crossing for how painfree it was. The BiH Customs guy was sitting around in the shade also doing absolutely nothing (and he wasn't even next to the crossing). 

To show how lightly guarded the border was, people were actually swimming across the Una to/from Dvor na Uni - and no-one seemed to care less. It's such a different attitude there compared to the mess at Karasovici or Metkovic - and I'd say much more realistic too. No sign whatsoever of Croatian Customs - their huts were closed up and they were nowhere to be seen. 

Sadly, no stamps this time round - the BiH guy didn't even have his stamp, and the HR guys wouldn't stamp my passport


----------



## italystf

^^ This lazy and easygoing attitude doesn't facilitate Croatia Schengen membership.


----------



## BL2

> In short, it might as well have been a Schengen crossing for how painfree it was.


alll border crossing were like this before croatia entered EU, now it is just torturing ppl.


----------



## bigic

A little OT: The area on both sides of the border has a Serb ethnic majority.


----------



## GYN1997

have Monaco and France ever had a road border post?
or was Monaco always like a neighborhood of Nice?
didn't it share a border with Italy before World War 2?

i'm exploring tiny-country borders in Europe
Andorra is quite visible and blocked by posts and gates 
San Marino visible but unimpeded
now I was looking at Monaco while bored at my school
not easy to see the border without labels or street view


----------



## alserrod

Andorra has had always stone bounds or so. Borders have been quite clear as far as booth passports remains active (you have less than 1% of possibilites to be require to show it but they exist)


In Monaco... I really wonder the same thing. There are somewhere in Monaco where it is impossible to recognize the exact point when the country starts

but...
https://www.google.es/maps/@43.7269...100&h=80&yaw=320.20154&pitch=0!7i13312!8i6656

right, main Monaco stadium (take the aerial view and guess why it is "not finished"), 

left, a little French stadium. Two streets, each one in their country and a little "garden fence" in the bound


----------



## Eulanthe

Monaco - the stadium is built on a car park from memory, so they can't expand it further. 

Anyway, latest report 

I went to a place called Trzacka Rastela (BiH) near the Izacic border crossing with Croatia, which was one of the weirdest villages I've ever been to. I was taking pictures of the (closed) border crossing there, when some guy started shouting and telling me to go away. The whole village was completely strange...

Anyway, not my pictures (mine will follow), but here's two pictures showing the situation there.

*Looking into Croatia *










You'll notice actual barbed wire fencing there, which is a bit strange...

*Looking into Bosnia *










It's a very, very weird place. Everywhere else was really nice in the countryside all over BiH, but that village had a very aggressive and hostile feel to it. I don't know why - I don't photograph anyone or anyone's businesses, just the actual infrastructure. 

After that, I went over to Izacic, which was predictably boring. 30 second delay on exit from BiH, but about 10 minutes delay entering BiH. Croatia - again - had bored border police that simply conducted visual checks on our passports. BiH border police were scanning every passport, but again - no requests for Green Cards, registration documents or anything of the sort. Does anyone know if BiH have implemented some deliberate decision not to check them?


----------



## Corvinus

^^ That location could feature in any Stephen King movie


----------



## Eulanthe

The town itself could easily be in such a movie 

I've tried to find out about the history of that border crossing, but I can't find anything. There was a Croatian hut with a flag on the Croatian side, and a BiH flag and hut too - so it looks to me like this was yet another border crossing that was open at some point and has been closed, but I can't find out for certain. 

(one day, I will learn the local language...)

On related news, it will be opened as an international border crossing later this year apparently


----------



## Alex_ZR

Eulanthe said:


> The town itself could easily be in such a movie
> 
> I've tried to find out about the history of that border crossing, but I can't find anything. There was a Croatian hut with a flag on the Croatian side, and a BiH flag and hut too - so it looks to me like this was yet another border crossing that was open at some point and has been closed, but I can't find out for certain.
> 
> (one day, I will learn the local language...)
> 
> On related news, it will be opened as an international border crossing later this year apparently


That border crossing is closed for some reason. News about possibility of openning that border crossing:

http://www.slobodnaevropa.org/content/nve-otvara-li-se-konacno-granicni-prijelaz-trzacka/27179582.html

During the war, river Korana (and HR-BIH border itself) was border line of Republika Srpska Krajina and Muslim enclave territory, until August 1995.

On the Croatian side you can still see ruins of Serbian houses, since Kordunski Ljeskovac was Serbian absoulte majority village until operation Storm in August 1995 (2011 population only 19, in 1991 population 316).


----------



## alserrod

Nice Georgian pics...but one question. Booths inside a building are for pedestrian passes?


----------



## eeee.

When I crossed the Georgian-Armenian border by bus we all had to get out and walk through the building. I guess if you cross the border on foot you will get there, too.


----------



## Kanadzie

They just want to show off their new building :lol:


----------



## Nodara95

alserrod said:


> Nice Georgian pics...but one question. Booths inside a building are for pedestrian passes?


exactly


----------



## Nodara95

Kanadzie said:


> They just want to show off their new building :lol:


border crossings in Georgia look like a little airports. they are full of duty free shops, cafes and stores


----------



## alserrod

Nodara95 said:


> border crossings in Georgia look like a little airports. they are full of duty free shops, cafes and stores


Duty free shops?. You mean they sell all maximum you may entry without paying taxes?

That's weird... if you buy anything in the duty free shop, it is supposed you cannot consume it until you are in the air (not able to consum in the country).


----------



## Suburbanist

alserrod said:


> Duty free shops?. You mean they sell all maximum you may entry without paying taxes?
> 
> That's weird... if you buy anything in the duty free shop, it is supposed you cannot consume it until you are in the air (not able to consum in the country).


It is meant to take foreign currency out of the pockets of travelers just leaving the country, instead of letting them spend it in other countries.

Isn't it like this?


----------



## verreme

Nodara95 said:


> border crossings in Georgia look like a little airports. they are full of duty free shops, cafes and stores


I kinda like this -it's a way to humanize something that's otherwise alienting, especially considering that Georgia isn't going to enter a Schengen-like agreement anytime soon.

Plus, the state gets some revenue that may pay the cost of border controls.


----------



## metasmurf

*Sweden/Norway border on E12*

Sweden/Norway border on E12 between Tärnaby and Mo i rana. Picture taken by me in July this summer.


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> Duty free shops?. You mean they sell all maximum you may entry without paying taxes?
> 
> That's weird... if you buy anything in the duty free shop, it is supposed you cannot consume it until you are in the air (not able to consum in the country).


It's not that weird - duty free shops used to exist between exit controls and the actual border in Slovenia, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Montenegro and the Czech Republic (and possibly Serbia, though I'm not certain) for instance. The USA and Canada still have duty free shops on the land border, too.

What killed them in Europe was the pressure put on by the EU to stop sales on the land borders. But the EU probably doesn't care about Georgia's borders as any thought of EU entry is a long, long way away - so they probably see it as a way to support Georgia financially. 

From what I know, the Finnish-Russian border zone is becoming incredibly popular for shopping as well. I've read an article somewhere about how the Russians are selling cheap petrol, cigarettes and booze on their side of the border, while the Finns are selling...well, everything you can't get in Russia right now because of the sanctions.


----------



## alserrod

Shopping duty free "near" the border?

I guess Pas de la Casa wins every border

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.5437...8MX_KngOoricci3INg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

(last border stone AD-F is the building ahead. Left F, right AD). In the surroundins there are many many shops)


Edit... bank offices incluided, just in case you wanna keep your money in an offshore country.


----------



## Suburbanist

Andorra is not EU, though it should be I think.


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> Andorra is not EU, though it should be I think.


That's right but the rest of countries mentioned above aren't too. 

BTW, they will never join EU because, partially the same reason Monaco doesn't join. They will cooperate, have good relations (both their State Presidents are Spanish and French indeed) but will not join.

A great part of their economie is based on not following EU rules but their own rules. They will try not to get angry to EU, but always own rules.

As an example... their banking system give them the 10% of incomes....

That's why in Pas de la Casa all Andorran banks have an office. Since ten years ago you can cross by tunnel but before then, coming from France you had to cross the highest pass in the Pyrenees to arrive the capital. They offered offices just in the border, you arrived there, gave the money and back home...


----------



## Eulanthe

No no, these shops were always between the "exit" controls and the physical borderline. It came about in places such as the Czech Republic because (during Communism) - physical controls were never located next to the border line. So there was a huge amount of empty space post-1989 - which turned into ideal locations for shops.

https://www.google.pl/maps/search/excalibur+city/@48.7633079,16.0678569,15z shows it quite well. Look just below the Chvalovice - Hate name and you'll see the site of the old CZ border crossing. There's the huge Excalibur City shopping complex just south of there (so after the CZ exit control) and the physical border line. That place was absolutely rammed full of legal and illegal things tax-free before the Czech Republic joined the EU. 

(if you haven't seen it before, Excalibur City is worth a look on Street View, it's a work of art in terms of "unbelievably kitsch border shopping")


----------



## Suburbanist

Excalibur City looks like a theme park.


----------



## Kanadzie

Eulanthe said:


> It's not that weird - duty free shops used to exist between exit controls and the actual border in Slovenia, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Montenegro and the Czech Republic (and possibly Serbia, though I'm not certain) for instance. The USA and Canada still have duty free shops on the land border, too.
> 
> What killed them in Europe was the pressure put on by the EU to stop sales on the land borders. But the EU probably doesn't care about Georgia's borders as any thought of EU entry is a long, long way away - so they probably see it as a way to support Georgia financially.
> 
> From what I know, the Finnish-Russian border zone is becoming incredibly popular for shopping as well. I've read an article somewhere about how the Russians are selling cheap petrol, cigarettes and booze on their side of the border, while the Finns are selling...well, everything you can't get in Russia right now because of the sanctions.


The USA-Canada duty free shops are only for exiting travellers though and are pretty strictly regulated (you need to give your license plate number, etc) Usually you can't access the country again after leaving (i.e. on the motorway just before border)


----------



## Verso

metasmurf said:


> Sweden/Norway border on E12 between Tärnaby and Mo i rana. Picture taken by me in July this summer.


"Mo i Rana" sounds Albanian.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> "Mo i Rana" sounds Albanian.


Rana = frog in Italian


----------



## Verso

Rana = wound in Slovenian. :lol:


----------



## Suburbanist

Speaking of duty-free purchases, Italy has this small issue with the Livigno area, which enjoys exemption of several taxes. Fuel is much cheaper there. There is an "internal customs post" here on SS301


----------



## bigic

Duty free shops also exist on the Greek land borders.


----------



## Corvinus

A new record number of 2'093 border violators within a 24-hour period were held up by Hungarian police at the SRB - H border on Monday, Aug. 25th, many entering Hungary on the railway tracks of the line Szabadka/Subotica -> Szeged where the "fast-installation wire barrier" isn't in place. At other locations, they have also forced their way through the wire barrier by damaging it.
This tide is a fraction of the thousands of illegals that were temporarily held up at the GR - MK border before they forced their way into Macedonia. They arrive continuously, including at night time. 
Most are from Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria and Nigeria (_thus we have a large share of economic migrants instead of refugees - in 4 of these countries there is no ongoing war. Western Europeans, the majority of them is heading for your countries_).
Given the numbers of migrants wandering around, police had to temporarily stop traffic on a part of Main Road 5 near Szeged. 
Human trafficking is a serious business for criminals; migrants are charged hundreds of euros for car rides to Budapest and beyond. Local gypsies (already well represented in the human trafficking business) are also targeting cash-carrying migrants for stealing and robbing them.

Article and lot of photos:
http://szegedma.hu/hir/szeged/2015/08/migransok-szazai-ozonlenek-roszkerol-szegedre.html


----------



## pasadia

Verso said:


> Rana = wound in Slovenian. :lol:


The same in roumanian. wtf?


----------



## Nodara95

nothing problematic to make more comfort on bordercrossings.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

pasadia said:


> The same in roumanian. wtf?


in spanish










http://www.sabiask.com/images/animales/rana.jpg


----------



## ElviS77

Verso said:


> "Mo i Rana" sounds Albanian.


The Norwegian explanation: "Mo" is the name of the town, "i" means in, "Rana" is the name of the municipality. "Mo" is a fairly common name in Norway, so someone chose to include the municipality. No local person ever would, though, to them it's just "Mo".


----------



## alserrod

Can Els Limits be considered as "duty free shop" in the border?

Looking towards norht there is a point where left sidewalk, parking lane, two road lanes and parking lane are in France... and for 500m right sidewalk is still in Spain. It is curious... because you have French banks, Post office, etc.. in one side, Spanish supermarkets in the other side.

So then, you crosses booths (no controls but they remain), drive 500m and you enter into France. You park in your side (right side looking towards north), you pay parkingmeter (they are only in French sides of the road). Should you get off by the right side of the car you are crossing an international border (back to Spain). You have many supermarkets there... buy what you want. You will have to pay Spanish taxes (not duty free), but should you go back to the car and keep them into the boot... you have crossed another border again... and way into France.

These supermarkets, as said, aren't full duty free ones but they sell those goods where there is more tax difference between Spain and France.


----------



## MichiH

Corvinus said:


> A new record number of 2'093 border violators within a 24-hour period were held up by Hungarian police at the SRB - H border on Monday, Aug. 25th, many entering Hungary on the railway tracks of the line Szabadka/Subotica -> Szeged where the "fast-installation wire barrier" isn't in place.


Please move the "Schengen Area" discussion to the new thread and try to keep this thread "clean": http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1847058. Thanks.


----------



## Verso

pasadia said:


> The same in roumanian. wtf?


It's actually the same in all Slavic languages, so apparently it's Slavic influence on Romanian. "(Mo) i rana" actually means "(Mo) and wound" in Serbo-Croatian, but it still sounds Albanian to me. They also have border crossings called "Han i Hotit" and "Han i Elezit", maybe because of that.


----------



## Palance

MichiH said:


> Please move the "Schengen Area" discussion to the new thread and try to keep this thread "clean": http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1847058. Thanks.


Why should there be a new thread? Totally unnecessary.


----------



## metasmurf

Verso said:


> It's actually the same in all Slavic languages, so apparently it's Slavic influence on Romanian. "(Mo) i rana" actually means "(Mo) and wound" in Serbo-Croatian, but it still sounds Albanian to me. They also have border crossings called "Han i Hotit" and "Han i Elezit", maybe because of that.


I like that me mentioning a name of a town with about 18 500 inhabitants in northern Norway has spun out in in frogs and wounds :lol:


----------



## MichiH

Why do we need a 2nd "Road side rest area" = "talk about anything" thread?


----------



## SRC_100

Verso said:


> Rana = wound in Slovenian. :lol:


In polish as well :cheers:


----------



## Alex_ZR

Verso said:


> It's actually the same in all Slavic languages, so apparently it's Slavic influence on Romanian. "(Mo) i rana" actually means "(Mo) and wound" in Serbo-Croatian, but it still sounds Albanian to me. They also have border crossings called "Han i Hotit" and "Han i Elezit", maybe because of that.


Mali i Zi = Montenegro in Albanian.


----------



## Verso

Little easy? :lol:


----------



## g.spinoza

Boundary stone Italy-Austria at the top of Deferegger Pfannhorn (2820 m), south of Passo Stalle/Staller Sattel. 

Please tell me if these posts of mine are off-topic, I will stop.


----------



## MattiG

g.spinoza said:


> Boundary stone Italy-Austria at the top of Deferegger Pfannhorn (2820 m), south of Passo Stalle/Staller Sattel.
> 
> Please tell me if these posts of mine are off-topic, I will stop.


Of course they are. No single word about history of Balkan.


----------



## Suburbanist

are you on a quest to hike all mountain passes trails in the Alps?


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Evzoni border station








picture was taken on 14.7.2015


----------



## Eulanthe

I've always wondered - how controlled was the Italy-Austria border before Austria joined the EU? 

Were these borders as soft as France/Belgium, or were they guarded?


----------



## Alex_ZR

^^ Actually, it's *Duboševica*/Udvar. I have pre-EU Croatian passport stamp from this crossing.


----------



## x-type

can somebody please repost Piotr's photos for us who cannot see them?


----------



## piotr71

There are links in each post, so one can see the images in picasa albums.


----------



## Surel

Eulanthe said:


> Still amazing to think that on Usedom/Uznam, the D/PL border was secured with a barbed wire fence up until 2007.


It was quite comfy beach, the water was less clean but much warmer than the rest of the Polish Baltic coast.

Lots of Germans on the Polish beach anyway . I guess lots of apartments have German owners as well.

To get on the Island from the Polish side you need to use a ferry. The city ferry is working also in the night, every 20 minutes, and it's free of charge. On the German side of the island there are bridges.


----------



## SRC_100

Surel said:


> I guess lots of apartments have German owners as well.


Don`t think so, maybe 1-3%, most are to rent owned by poles.


----------



## alserrod

Have searched in street view that border and, besides the beach, there is a nice footlane and bike lane with continuity (and no fences, booths...) over the border. There is a monument that point you are changing country


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> Have searched in street view that border and, besides the beach, there is a nice footlane and bike lane with continuity (and no fences, booths...) over the border. There is a monument that point you are changing country


https://www.google.pl/maps/@53.9269...Tl3vMaEVpkPw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en

If it's here, then there was never any border crossing here. The nearest (pedestrian only) crossing was located here - https://www.google.pl/maps/@53.9220...qkjR68xSIt7Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en

The remains of the barbed wire fence is here - https://www.google.pl/maps/@53.9269...Tl3vMaEVpkPw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en

And also here - https://www.google.pl/maps/@53.9268...X14XEdwZUJjw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en

Interestingly, I've found references to suggest that Germany was controlling the border on Usedom with infrared cameras and motion detection equipment in 2007, well after Poland joined the EU!


----------



## cinxxx

Nothing special, just a Schengen border crossing between Portugal and Spain I checked out a week ago: *Marvão (PT) / Valencia de Alcántara (E)*

Border Marvão (PT) / Valencia de Alcántara (E) by cinxxx, on Flickr

Border Marvão (PT) / Valencia de Alcántara (E) by cinxxx, on Flickr

Border Marvão (PT) / Valencia de Alcántara (E) by cinxxx, on Flickr

Border Marvão (PT) / Valencia de Alcántara (E) by cinxxx, on Flickr

Border Marvão (PT) / Valencia de Alcántara (E) by cinxxx, on Flickr

Border Marvão (PT) / Valencia de Alcántara (E) by cinxxx, on Flickr

Border Marvão (PT) / Valencia de Alcántara (E) by cinxxx, on Flickr

Border Marvão (PT) / Valencia de Alcántara (E) by cinxxx, on Flickr

Border Marvão (PT) / Valencia de Alcántara (E) by cinxxx, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

I passed there in June 

The landscape is much flatter east of Valencia de Alcántara. N-521 to Cáceres is a long trip, but there's almost no traffic. A-58 was once planned there, but seems unlikely to be constructed.


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## MichiH

I passed there in June too . Not P/E but PL/D after taking the ferry


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## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> https://www.google.pl/maps/@53.9269...Tl3vMaEVpkPw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en
> 
> If it's here, then there was never any border crossing here. The nearest (pedestrian only) crossing was located here - https://www.google.pl/maps/@53.9220...qkjR68xSIt7Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en
> 
> The remains of the barbed wire fence is here - https://www.google.pl/maps/@53.9269...Tl3vMaEVpkPw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en
> 
> And also here - https://www.google.pl/maps/@53.9268...X14XEdwZUJjw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en
> 
> Interestingly, I've found references to suggest that Germany was controlling the border on Usedom with infrared cameras and motion detection equipment in 2007, well after Poland joined the EU!


 What is your problem here? Poland joined the Schengen area in December 2007. Before that, the D/PL border was the outer perimeter of the Schengen area, and to be guarded by the book.


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## Eulanthe

MattiG said:


> What is your problem here? Poland joined the Schengen area in December 2007. Before that, the D/PL border was the outer perimeter of the Schengen area, and to be guarded by the book.


It's just surprising that the barbed wire fence and other defences weren't taken down in 2004, that's all. The CZ/D border in comparison was far less defended, but Usedom seemed to warrant special attention for some reason.

A strange fact is that there was only one crossing on Usedom until 2007, and that crossing was for pedestrian and bike traffic only. The Garz crossing only opened in June 2007, which makes you wonder what the sense was in spending so much money on it.


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## JonasPalmaL

Táchira (Venezuela) and Norte de Santander (Colombia) Border, closed at the present time.

Simón Bolívar Bridge.









Venezuela - Brasil border.


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## italystf

Why was it closed?


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## alserrod

italystf said:


> Why was it closed?



Strong disputes between both countries. If I find an English news I'll post it


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## ChrisZwolle

Here: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-34082611


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## italystf

Iron curtain between socialist Venezuela and (narco)capitalist Colombia.


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## JonasPalmaL

italystf said:


> Why was it closed?


Because some Colombian and Venezuelan people smuggled basic products, fuel and even cash to Colombia, we're talking about 40% of the basic products of Venezuela. Also there was a paramilitary attack to Venezuelan forces in Táchira estate so the president decided to close the border and decree an emergency in the border towns, nobody knows when it's going to be re-opened, but Tachira's people wants it closed until february, so imagine the magnitude of the problem.

PD: Now in Colombia they make endless lines to fill the tanks of the cars, because when the border was opened Colombian cars filled the tanks in Venezuelan gas stations (the cheapest fuel in the world).


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## Motul

italystf said:


> Iron curtain between socialist Venezuela and (narco)capitalist Colombia.





Narco capitalist? Bitch, just capitalist. Thanks.


Or is Italy (mafia) capitalist? If so, then I can accept what you said.


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## TEBC

italystf said:


> Why was it closed?


Because nicolas maduro reached one of the lowest percentages of popularity and is afraid to lose majority in congress to the oposition, so he is trying to avoid the problems creating new ones. So he decided to "blame" colombians for the problems that chavismo brought to the country.


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## Motul

JonasPalmaL said:


> PD: Now in Colombia they make endless lines to fill the tanks of the cars, because when the border was opened Colombian cars filled the tanks in Venezuelan gas stations (the cheapest fuel in the world).






Two things:

1) The lines were just in Cucuta, the border town.

2) There are no lines anymore, there were just the first days of border closing. Gas stations worked 24 hours a day to supply demand. The problem is there were only 22 stations for a city with 200,000 cars.



Venezuela is suffering more than Colombia with this border closing. Now their border towns dont even have diapers, and no way to get them in the colombian supermarkets.


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## Motul

The truth is, Venezuela is almost irrelevant for Colombia now a days. It used to be the #2 trading partner, with exports from Colombia worth 7 billion dollars, now its just a fraction of that.


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## JonasPalmaL

TEBC said:


> Because nicolas maduro reached one of the lowest percentages of popularity and is afraid to lose majority in congress to the oposition, so he is trying to avoid the problems creating new ones. So he decided to "blame" colombians for the problems that chavismo brought to the country.


Be careful with what you say, here in Venezuela we're suffering so much smuggling and Colombian paramilitary and narcos are big part of the game with some Venezuelan thieves. Its clear that president Maduro had to closed the border before but the problem was bigger and it needed a big plan that required time, the other two estates that shares the border with Colombia are about to close it too, but Colombian responsability is stronger in the border with Táchira, Venezuelan responsability is stronger in the other two estates, where the same Venezuelan people are extracting the products and the fuel to the brother country.

Some media wants to create hostility between the two countries, but they won't succeed.


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## ChrisZwolle

Products priced way below the market value is usually a good incentive for smuggling. Fuel in Venezuela is not just cheap, it is ridiculously cheap. A tenfold increase in fuel price still means Venezuelan fuel prices are lower than nearly all countries.


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## El Tiburon

JonasPalmaL said:


> Because some Colombian and Venezuelan people smuggled basic products, fuel and even cash to Colombia, we're talking about 40% of the basic products of Venezuela. Also there was a paramilitary attack to Venezuelan forces in Táchira estate so the president decided to close the border and decree an emergency in the border towns, nobody knows when it's going to be re-opened, but Tachira's people wants it closed until february, so imagine the magnitude of the problem.
> 
> PD: Now in Colombia they make endless lines to fill the tanks of the cars, because when the border was opened Colombian cars filled the tanks in Venezuelan gas stations (the cheapest fuel in the world).


Maduro has a 70% negative rating in Venezuela right now because, between him and his predecessor Hugo Chavez, they have destroyed the economy in Venezuela with their populist Castroite policies and their non-sensical statizations/expropriations of the "socialism of the 21st dentury" that have resulted in constant attacks on the private sector, state intevention in the economy and destruction of productive forces that have led to hyperinflation. People have no food while Maduro's wife, Cilia Flores, struts around with a $4,500 Channel purse in true socialist hypocritical fashion. Thus, when drug-involved members of the Bolivarian National Guard and the Bolivarian Armed Forces got into a drug-related shoot out, Maduro saw an opportunity to stir up nationalis, a la Fidel Castro, by blaming Colombians, and distract attention from the crisis in which him, Chavez, the Castro brothers and the chavista narco-generals have sunk Venezuela. At the same time, Maduro is trying to pressure Colombia into not extraditing to the U.S. some narco-traffickers who intimately know the involvement of top Venezuelan government officials in the drug cartel de los Soles.


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## TEBC

JonasPalmaL said:


> Be careful with what you say, here in Venezuela we're suffering so much smuggling and Colombian paramilitary and narcos are big part of the game with some Venezuelan thieves. Its clear that president Maduro had to closed the border before but the problem was bigger and it needed a big plan that required time, the other two estates that shares the border with Colombia are about to close it too, but Colombian responsability is stronger in the border with Táchira, Venezuelan responsability is stronger in the other two estates, where the same Venezuelan people are extracting the products and the fuel to the brother country. Some media wants to create hostility between the two countries, but they won't succeed.


 And which government supports the narcoterrorists?! Its not the colombians for sure


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## alserrod

I'll be glad to back to borders!!!!!!!!


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## Eulanthe

Well, question for you 

Can you find any recent news about the works at La Linea on the Gibraltar border? I can only find quite old articles from May - what I'm trying to find out is whether or not the Spanish exit controls will actually be abolished, or if Spain will treat it as a serious external Schengen border.


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## alserrod

Nice question too....

I haven't readed anything related to that border, neither works, neither type of controls (changes since last years)


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## Alex_ZR

Border crossing Horgoš II (SRB)-Röszke II (H) which was (re-)opened this summer is closed for cars since September 1. Only pedestrians, cyclists and working machines can cross it now, and only Serbian and Hungarian citizens (no rest of EU).


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## pyramidxx

What is new situation on border crossing Hungary/Austria at Nickelsdorf??? Yesterday border with Serbia was closed few hours due too asylum seekers from Asia what escaped from refugee camp at Röszke!! European leaders are directly responsible for the refugee crisis as they are fully complicit in the imperial wars of Washington that created the refugee crisis. To be clear, Europe has become nothing more than a vassal of Washington. Washington's military imperialism in the Middle East via proxies such as al Qaed, ISIL/Daesh and now Turkey is the direct cause of this tidal wave of refugees. Europe has been fully complicit and subservient. Did these European leaders think the refugees would land in Florida?


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## MichiH

:bash: Please keep the border crossings thread clean of this discussion!

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1847058


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## Attus

pyramidxx said:


> What is new situation on border crossing Hungary/Austria at Nickelsdorf???


I'll respond only the part of the question which is relevant for the thread. 
That border station is currently closed for all traffic, except for refugees. From Hungary to Austria the recommended routes are either through Sopron or through Komarno (SK) - Bratislava (SK).


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## Eulanthe

Attus said:


> I'll respond only the part of the question which is relevant for the thread.
> That border station is currently closed for all traffic, except for refugees. From Hungary to Austria the recommended routes are either through Sopron or through Komarno (SK) - Bratislava (SK).


Both motorway and national road crossings are closed?

Is it closed on both sides, or only one side?

Speaking of Sopron, can anyone explain what exactly was going on at the old border crossing here?

https://www.google.pl/maps/@47.7399...BRv3VsqhorQA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en

Heading in the direction of Austria, you can see what appears to be two separate places to stop within Hungarian territory. It doesn't look like it was Hungarian and then Austrian controls (as you can see the Austrian controls in the distance) - so - what's going on there?


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## volodaaaa

Eulanthe said:


> Both motorway and national road crossings are closed?
> 
> Is it closed on both sides, or only one side?
> 
> Speaking of Sopron, can anyone explain what exactly was going on at the old border crossing here?
> 
> https://www.google.pl/maps/@47.7399...BRv3VsqhorQA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en
> 
> Heading in the direction of Austria, you can see what appears to be two separate places to stop within Hungarian territory. It doesn't look like it was Hungarian and then Austrian controls (as you can see the Austrian controls in the distance) - so - what's going on there?


I guess it could be the alignment of booths. Sometimes you need to place more booth than width of the road allows. In such cases you can create two or more rows. It is similar like checkouts in mall (e.g. Kaufland uses that alignment). 
One lane in first row does not have booth but lead you further to second row where it branches out to more lanes with booths. The lanes from first row merges into single lane that goes through second row without booth. 

Here is an example of putarina-station with such alignment near Beograd:
https://www.google.sk/maps/place/Po...s0x47009964a4640bbb:0x97573ca49cc55ea!6m1!1e1


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## Attus

The border station of Hegyeshalom were opened at about 6PM CET.


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## Eulanthe

volodaaaa said:


> I guess it could be the alignment of booths.


I thought that too, but I looked around and it seems that the first control (in the picture, direction Austria) was for Customs control, and the second for passport control. If you look on the asphalt, you can see the old "VAM/ZOLL" painted there. 

It would mean that in direction Austria, you would first pass an exit Customs control and then identity control. In direction Hungary, you would pass the entry identity control and then Customs. 

Weird to have two entirely separate areas rather than just one big hut.


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## f.ostman

Slovenia left, Austria right








One more picture from my roadtrip this summer. Czech republic left, Germany right


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## Attus

Border station Hegyeshalom (H) - Nickelsdorf (A) has been closed again.


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## Attus




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## Singidunum

Now it's clear why Horgos 2 was shut down so soon after opening. It will be used as a registration point for refugees who want to enter Hungary legally by first registering as asylum seekers with police. It already began about an hour ago.


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## Corvinus

A makeshift sign for migrants in Horgos/Horgoš, 3kms from the border:










...and this thing is meant to close the fence gap at the rail tracks overnight. It could have sprung from a Stephen King novel.










(Img source: origo.hu)


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## Eulanthe

Are there any more pictures of Horgos-2 available?

I'm trying to work out if there's anything intact from the old Hungarian/Serbian border infrastructure.


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## Singidunum

Eulanthe said:


> Are there any more pictures of Horgos-2 available?
> 
> I'm trying to work out if there's anything intact from the old Hungarian/Serbian border infrastructure.


..



Singidunum said:


> New one


and from today


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## KøbenhavnK

Thank you Hungary.

Next stop Croatia...


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## Eulanthe

I've found a video of the crossing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsiJSKXjHqs

It looks like some of the old Serbian infrastructure might still be intact. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhUOTvlkgfI 

Also shows the old Horgos crossing. It seems that they may only have actually removed the signs from one side of the crossing - so it's possible that a lot has survived from the old YU crossing.


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## TheSkyscraper

Morocco, Spain in Badis (Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera), the border is a blue rope x)























































https://www.google.fr/maps/place/Pe...s0xd7453720babcacf:0x35c00823bd394472!6m1!1e1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baMe-WJIzLw (2.38 : the border)


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## NordikNerd

Interesting, the immigrants are using the swedish/finnish border at Torneå to get to southern Finland.
At least 500 refugees arrived in Tornio and Finland yesterday (Sunday)
This friday stricter control will be introduced at the swedish/finnish border.

Yesterday around 500 asylum seekers arrived to Tornio in Finland and most of them want further south . They came from the Swedish side , where they often arrived by train through northern Sweden .
Now , From this friday Finland is planning to tighten border controls in the northern parts of the country because of the refugee crisis.

The flood of refugees to the western border continues
Tuesday, 09.15.2015 at 08.15 
Six busses or 330 asylum-seekers were transferred to Finland from Luleå yesterday via Haparanda. 
Most of the passengers on the six busses continued their journey to Kemi & Tornio.




















It seems like the serbian/hungarian border at Röszke is blocked now. Is this only temporary?









This morning some immigrants tried to get through by cutting the barb wire but they were arrested.


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## eucitizen

Eulanthe said:


> I've found a video of the crossing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsiJSKXjHqs
> 
> It looks like some of the old Serbian infrastructure might still be intact.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhUOTvlkgfI
> 
> Also shows the old Horgos crossing. It seems that they may only have actually removed the signs from one side of the crossing - so it's possible that a lot has survived from the old YU crossing.


For sure that yellow building on left is par tof the old building. I remember it, though it had a different colour I think.


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## x-type

KøbenhavnK said:


> Thank you Hungary.
> 
> Next stop Croatia...


neah, no need for fences here. we have mine fields remaining from the war. so who wants, go ahead...


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## alserrod

The Velez de la Gomera has appeared some other time. It is the tiny border in the world.

The reason is, that rock was an island (therefore, no land border)

There is a second case like this one between Argentina and Uruguay


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## volodaaaa

cinxxx said:


> ^^better go via Bratislava?





bogdymol said:


> And buy Slovak vignette for 10 km?
> 
> I might drive through Sopron.


It is a piece of cake to go through Slovakia. I can provide you some help.

In case you want to spend some money for vignette* and you are approaching from Hungary, just go straight through all two interchanges (direction Brno - do not expect Prague). The same goes for the route back (just follow the direction Győr - do not expect Budapest).

- Here is the map

Attention! You are obligated to have the vignette as soon as you cross the border. There is a sale point at borders (marked in English last time I've driven by).

Bottlenecks: 
1) lack of petrol stations: there are only three at that section.
2) police and speed traps: The general motorway speed limit is 130 kph, the general motorway speed limit within city is 90 kph. The build-up area of Bratislava is barely marked and you can overlook it easily. I am ashamed to say that police like to abuse it and penalize foreigners. It looks like this or this. The "city" is cancelled by this sign (you can carry on 130 kph beyond). Always take it seriously, if there is a reduced speed on motorway (especially set out by permanently posted signs).

If you want to go through Slovakia and avoid motorways (full map), follow these steps:
1. Leave Hungarian M15 at last exit towards Rajka,
2. Follow the direction "SK".
3. Do not get scared at old neglected Hungarian-Slovak border crossing.
4. Look out for "the great Bratislava concept" meaning that roads connecting rural boroughs are included in "built-up" area (regardless they are running across fields) with 50 kph limit, unless stated otherwise.
5. Carry on through Rusovce. Do not leave the main road.
6. Leave the road here.
7. Take a ride on motorway (free of charge) unless you are at 55 - Lamač exit. Exits are numbered in compliance with milestones you can pursue (descending in that direction) to calm you down and know how far you are from the exit.
8. There is a tricky roundabout on this place currently. Take the outer lane to avoid critical situation (even locals can't drive over).
9. Now pursue the road number 2. Do not leave the road at any intersection unless you enter "Kúty". Do not enter the motorway you will cross several times. Watch out the speed limits. Watch out the wild animals (and drive carefully especially at night). The road is rather narrow with properties of secondary road, but is generally in perfect condition. 
10. Pay attention once you are in Kúty. Take the second exit from first roundabout in the municipality and keep left to turn left just after you pass the roundabout. The StreetView images are out of date for this municipality.

Road back is similiar with several principles:
1. Once you are in Bratislava, strive for getting to motorway (is free of charge).
2. Once you are on motorway and having crossed the Danube river, follow the direction Jarovce.
3. Once you have left the motorway, follow the direction Budapest/Gyor (it alternates in this direction).
4. Get back to motorway once you have crossed the border.

*vignettes


My personal opinion:
I would buy the vignette and take the as easiest way as possible. D2 motorway is in good condition (with some sections resurfaced in past months) and (unless extraordinary events) congestionless. The traffic is generally very low. The price for vignette is not high and worth avoiding unexpected events at Austrian borders. I've purchased 30 € Slovenian vignette this year just to avoid the Hungarian-Serbian border. I was angry at Slovenians, because the motorway section was ridiculously short, but it saves lots of time I would spend bitching in congestion at H/SRB border crossing.


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## KøbenhavnK

x-type said:


> neah, no need for fences here. we have mine fields remaining from the war. so who wants, go ahead...


Your good friends in Serbia have begun directing buses to the Croatian border.

Expect unexpected visitors in the morning 

.... Which makes me wonder why Austria has set up border control at the Hungarian border.... My guess is that Merkel's gift to European civilization will show up at their Slovenian border before long.


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## Ingenioren

TheSkyscraper said:


> Morocco, Spain in Badis (Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera), the border is a blue rope x)


How come migrants scale the Melilla fence when they can just cross this little rope instead?


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## piotr71

volodaaaa said:


> (..)
> My personal opinion:
> I would buy the vignette and take the as easiest way as possible. D2 motorway is in good condition (with some sections resurfaced in past months) and (unless extraordinary events) congestionless. The traffic is generally very low. The price for vignette is not high and worth avoiding unexpected events at Austrian borders. I've purchased 30 € Slovenian vignette this year just to avoid the Hungarian-Serbian border. I was angry at Slovenians, because the motorway section was ridiculously short, *but it saves lots of time I would spend bitching in congestion at H/SRB border crossing*.


Try this one, next time. No more than 5 minutes waiting in high season..


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## John Maynard

Can anyone give me some advise, as I am planning to drive from Poland to Budapest via Slovakia/Czech latter this week, and don't want to get stuck for hours at internal EU borders :bash:. Are there permanent border controls on this route?
Also, afterwards from Budapest to Southern Austria? What is the best route for now in terms of delays?


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## TheSkyscraper

Ingenioren said:


> How come migrants scale the Melilla fence when they can just cross this little rope instead?


This little place is not really connected to continental spain, there is 3-4 buildings, only soldiers so ...
But Ceuta or Mellila are hubs, with port and large relations (boats etc) with Spain


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## TheSkyscraper

alserrod said:


> The Velez de la Gomera has appeared some other time. It is the tiny border in the world.
> 
> The reason is, that rock was an island (therefore, no land border)
> 
> There is a second case like this one between Argentina and Uruguay


It's only 87 m


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## alserrod

Ingenioren said:


> How come migrants scale the Melilla fence when they can just cross this little rope instead?


It is not easy to entry there even with passport (or Spanish ID). 
It is a military area, quite small, but kept.

I have read some travel blogs and sometimes I read it wasn't able to get into there even being Spanish, other times someone has been allowed to stay in the entrance (neither there, nor in other corner, anyone will be allowed to remain in an army area).

It is not a touristic resort at all but just these kind of tourists who travel around anywhere, if passed near there, have written about it


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## Ingenioren

But it wouldn't be accepted to claim asylum in Spain to those soldiers?


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## Eulanthe

John Maynard said:


> Can anyone give me some advise, as I am planning to drive from Poland to Budapest via Slovakia/Czech latter this week, and don't want to get stuck for hours at internal EU borders :bash:. Are there permanent border controls on this route?
> Also, afterwards from Budapest to Southern Austria? What is the best route for now in terms of delays?


As far as I know, the SK police are controlling (or at least monitoring) the crossing in Rajka (SK/H near Bratislava), but there are no reports of systematic controls or delays. PL-CZ/SK is open and without control.

Afterwards - should be painless if you cross near Szombathely.

As for that little bit of Spain and migrants - I think it's pretty obvious that if anyone turned up there trying to claim asylum, they would be "invited" to go back to Morocco by the Spanish army.


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## Kanadzie

volodaaaa said:


> 4. Look out for "the great Bratislava concept" meaning that roads connecting rural boroughs are included in "built-up" area (regardless they are running across fields) with 50 kph limit, unless stated otherwise.


There is lots of this around the world... here`s one near me... they changed sign from 80 km/h to 60 km/h and put a pointless solid line! I want to drive 110 hno:


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## eucitizen

Eulanthe said:


> As far as I know, the SK police are controlling (or at least monitoring) the crossing in Rajka (SK/H near Bratislava), but there are no reports of systematic controls or delays. PL-CZ/SK is open and without control.
> 
> Afterwards - should be painless if you cross near Szombathely.
> 
> As for that little bit of Spain and migrants - I think it's pretty obvious that if anyone turned up there trying to claim asylum, they would be "invited" to go back to Morocco by the Spanish army.


Slovak police make some spot controls also with Austria.


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## MichiH

Austria will introduce controls at the borders to Hungary, Italy, Slovenia and Slovakia.

They already began nonstop** border controls at Nickelsdorf, Deutschkreuz and Schachendorf this morning 7AM, see press release.

Border controls are also planned at Kittsee, Pamhagen, Klingenbach, Rattersdorf, Heiligenkreuz and Bonisdorf.

**It's officially called temporary controls. I also read that controls are "durchgehend" which should be translated "nonstop" not "permanent".


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## Eulanthe

Roszke-Horgos has apparently been shut for 30 days, but I'm guessing it's Roszke-Horgos 2 that's closed and not the main motorway connection.


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## Singidunum

I predict there won't be a tripoint party this year


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## cinxxx

Singidunum said:


> I predict there won't be a tripoint party this year


^^who knows what will be in late May 2016...


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## volodaaaa

eucitizen said:


> Slovak police make some spot controls also with Austria.


They focus only on suspicious vans that can carry illegals. Passenger cars are not the subject of controls.


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## MichiH

^^ The same is reported about the border b/n Austria and Germany. Passenger cars with German number plates and only one person on board are not controlled.


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## Kanadzie

^^ But Germans of a certain age know _best _how to hide people under the car!


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## John Maynard

^^ Thank you for your responses.


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## alserrod

Ingenioren said:


> How come migrants scale the Melilla fence when they can just cross this little rope instead?


They cannot. They wouldn't be considered as inmigrants, neither in that rock, neither in other islands.

I am not sure if this island will be accepted as "inmigration"

Why?... Answer will not be about border but about national territory organization. A huge off-topic





TheSkyscraper said:


> This little place is not really connected to continental spain, there is 3-4 buildings, only soldiers so ...
> But Ceuta or Mellila are hubs, with port and large relations (boats etc) with Spain


They have a helicopter base and they are connected with Melilla (Velez de la Gomera)

Anyway, for inmigrants entering Ceuta or Melilla have not easy to arrive Europe. There is no passport control but if you are going to get an airplane (from Melilla, Ceuta hasn't airport), you know you may show your passport to the company and for ferries, the same case (in case of fatality they wanna know who is on board).
Therefore, for police it is quite easy to know who is travelling. No physical controls but all is digitally controlled


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## eucitizen

I watched at Reuters tv today showing the HU/AT border. They really checked mostly van.


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## John Maynard

eucitizen said:


> Slovak police make some spot controls also with Austria.


On the other hand, why is Slovakia, Poland, Slovenia, etc. well "poor and still in development" EU countries so afraid that some refugees pass through their territory from Hungary, after all they are leading and stay "on course" to Germany/Scandinavia, well "rich" Western European nations that "openly" are embracing and inviting them :nuts:? 
According to an interview, standards and quality of life in those countries are too low for the expectations of these refugees; even Greece where many have already transited is "such a poor country and in economical crisis". In reality, no one wants to stay in those EU countries, even the locals are massively leaving (per ex., Poland had millions of economical migrants in the last decade) :lol:.

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-notebook/migrants/hungary-treatment-refugees


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## eucitizen

I think that those controls are just to show some muscles for the local public and to "protect" Schengen from the "barbarian horde".


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## volodaaaa

John Maynard said:


> On the other hand, why is Slovakia, Poland, Slovenia, etc. well "poor and still in development" EU countries so afraid that some refugees pass through their territory from Hungary, after all they are leading and stay "on course" to Germany/Scandinavia, well "rich" Western European nations that "openly" are embracing and inviting them :nuts:?
> According to an interview, standards and quality of life in those countries are too low for the expectations of these refugees; even Greece where many have already transited is "such a poor country and in economical crisis". In reality, no one wants to stay in those EU countries, even the locals are massively leaving (per ex., Poland had millions of economical migrants in the last decade) :lol:.
> 
> Link: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-notebook/migrants/hungary-treatment-refugees


I think it is obvious: according to the experiences from Hungary, the influx of refugees leads to chaos at motorways, at railway station, at railways, at borders nobody wants.

Everybody know that zero refugees would stay in Slovakia. It has been told hundred times: quotas won't work with Schengen.


----------



## MichiH

John Maynard said:


> why is Slovakia, Poland, Slovenia, etc. well "poor and still in development" EU countries so afraid that some refugees pass through their territory from Hungary, after all they are leading and stay "on course" to Germany/Scandinavia


Because Germany could introduce border controls at the Polish and Czech border too and refugees would be stranded there.... Hungry and ill.... Germany does not allow crossing the border if one has no passport....


----------



## eucitizen

MichiH said:


> Because Germany could introduce border controls at the Polish and Czech border too and refugees would be stranded there.... Hungry and ill.... Germany does not allow crossing the border if one has no passport....


German already set up some controls on borders with CZ. I saw 2 German policemen today at the border Bad Schandau - Hrensko. They also told it on German radio.


----------



## Eulanthe

Wow.

It seems that I was wrong - Horgos/Roszke (the motorway crossing) has been shut.










Hungarian police are saying that both Roszke crossings are indefinitely closed. I'm shocked - as far as I know, even during the Kosovo War, the border was never closed.

http://www.police.hu/hirek-es-informaciok/hatarinfo

Ásotthalom - Backi Vinogradi has also been closed, but that hasn't been reported anywhere.


----------



## John Maynard

MichiH said:


> Because Germany could introduce border controls at the Polish and Czech border too and refugees would be stranded there.... Hungry and ill.... Germany does not allow crossing the border if one has no passport....


I already heard that one, from a Polish politician. But, it's Germany "Angie" who is "inviting" them and even gave a projected quota of 800'000 warm welcoming of "refugees" for this year only; closing the intra-Schengen border after that would be schizophrenic IMO :dunno:.


----------



## Sunfuns

pyramidxx said:


> *It was better USA didn't started with importing democracy in Arab countries..*Now we can see BOOMERANG in Europe..Number of refugees will increase on 2 million in 2016...Good luck Europe,Schengen is already dead!!!


Doesn't matter. Those countries were inherently unstable and it was just a matter of time. 

Europe will be all right, a bit different than before but still a fine place to live. Remember the only constant in life is change.


----------



## John Maynard

^^ Not only US, but also in Europe: UK and...huh, Poland :lol:.

Btw., they are "quite stable" now :lol:.


----------



## bogdymol

About 2 weeks ago I crossed the Croatian / Bosnian and Bosnian / Croatia border nearby Neum, on the way to/from Dubrovnik.

On my way south, entering Bosnia, I got only a 2-second look at my Romanian ID card by the Croatian border officer:




























Entering Croatia (to Dubrovnik) from Bosnia, it was the same story:










On the way back, entering Bosnia from Croatia (heading north), I haven't even stopped the car, but passed trough with 5 km/h as the border police just waved me through:










Entering back in Croatia (heading north), the 2 vans in front of me didn't stop. I was stopped for the 2-second look on my ID card:


----------



## OulaL

Some hundreds of protestors blocked the border between Finland and Sweden in Tornio/Haparanda yesterday in a demonstration on the recent immigration crisis. This demonstration affected a local street, not E4.

In this picture the line of people somewhat follows the actual borderline. Interestingly, the Finnish police officers are standing on Swedish territory.

More pictures on Yle http://yle.fi/uutiset/parisataa_ihmista_mielenilmauksessa_torniossa/8317452


----------



## volodaaaa

I was on trip to Czech republic today.The traffic was low and the border checks were in place. Focused on all types of cars, predominantly with no-CZ/SK plates.


----------



## bogdymol

My cousin drove from Romania to Germany on Thursday. He told me that at both Hungary/Austria (Nickelsdorf) and Austria/Germany (Passau) border crossings there were border checks, but not everyone was stopped. Only vans or suspicious looking vehicles were stopped, the rest could pass with 30 km/h. He drove a Skoda Rapid with Romanian licence plates and was not stopped.


----------



## Eulanthe

volodaaaa said:


> I was on trip to Czech republic today.The traffic was low and the border checks were in place. Focused on all types of cars, predominantly with no-CZ/SK plates.


Who was checking - SK or CZ police, or both?


----------



## volodaaaa

Eulanthe said:


> Who was checking - SK or CZ police, or both?


both, but only entry checks (CZ on CZ direction, SK on SK direction).


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> Interestingly, the Finnish police officers are standing on Swedish territory.


The next step will be taken in the beginning of 2016: There will be multinational police patrols: A Finnish and a Swedish police officer sharing a police car. This arrangement will span some 50 km on both sides of the border.


----------



## NordikNerd

OulaL said:


> In this picture the line of people somewhat follows the actual borderline. Interestingly, the Finnish police officers are standing on Swedish territory.


Meaning the finnish police has no right to perform their work where they are standing.


----------



## OulaL

NordikNerd said:


> Meaning the finnish police has no right to perform their work where they are standing.


They have right to watch, and if needed, ask help from Swedish police. As far as I have understood, Swedish police was also there, just out of picture.

Watching people is obviously easier when facing them, not their backs.


----------



## Eulanthe

NordikNerd said:


> Meaning the finnish police has no right to perform their work where they are standing.


I think pragmatically, no-one is going to object to the Finnish police standing in Sweden to do their job. You often see examples of border guards standing in the "wrong" country when talking to their counterparts, too.

Anyway, at Bajakovo (direction SRB->HR), freight crossings have been suspended, with a 6km queue in the other direction. What's going on there?


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ It's pretty amazing to see that in today's Europe.

What was it, 25 years ago, if they sneezed over a line they'd get shot?


----------



## haddockman

You routinely see Romanian police conducting passport controls on Bulgarian territory and vice versa. 

Also I have seen Hungarian police in RO conducting controls on behalf of both nations.


----------



## Eulanthe

haddockman said:


> You routinely see Romanian police conducting passport controls on Bulgarian territory and vice versa.
> 
> Also I have seen Hungarian police in RO conducting controls on behalf of both nations.


Yes, police conducting controls on the "opposite" territory is somewhat normal. Almost all of Croatia's border crossings with Slovenia have police on the SLO side, with only two (I think) on the HR side.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Eulanthe said:


> Anyway, at Bajakovo (direction SRB->HR), freight crossings have been suspended, with a 6km queue in the other direction. What's going on there?


Croatian revenge because migrants are now going to Croatia from Serbia and not Hungary anymore.


----------



## KøbenhavnK

I just hope and pray that Sweden doesn't shut it's borders 

I see they have "agreed" to distribute the famous 120000 immigrants.

Now they'll just have to agree on the 10000 new ones coming every day.


----------



## Kemo

A new bridge over river Poprad opens tomorrow on Polish-Slovak border (Piwniczna-Zdrój - Mníšek nad Popradom). It connects Polish national route 87 and Slovak national route 68.

Some photos from Polish forumers:



>


----------



## GROBIN

Crossed very recently:

Kapčiamiestis (LT) / Berżniki (PL)

















My remark as a non-Lithuanian and non-Pole: on the Lithuanian why putting a very nice banner in English-only "Welcome to the Lazdijai district - land of lakes, etc." instead of putting it in Polish? I am pretty confident the vast majority of people crossing the border over there are Poles from Sejny/Augustów/Berżniki do not speak English    Moreover, on the Polish side, you can see quite a few "kvečiame" or "baidarų nuoma" in Lithuanian! 

Norviliškės (LT) / Piackuny Пяцкуны (BY):
Since last year, they have repaired the РЭСПУБЛІКА БЕЛАРУСЬ roadsign (don't have any clue what for as no one seems to cross the border here ... There is no Lithuanian border control place). See the Peugeot 406 on the Belarusian side


----------



## x-type

Alex_ZR said:


> Croatian revenge because migrants are now going to Croatia from Serbia and not Hungary anymore.


so why are there no more migrants at Horgoš? because Serbian buses ride only to Batrovci/Bajakovo due to some H-SRB agreement?


----------



## Alex_ZR

x-type said:


> so why are there no more migrants at Horgoš? because Serbian buses ride only to Batrovci/Bajakovo due to some H-SRB agreement?


Because migrants realized that they don't have any chance to cross Hungarian border.


----------



## GROBIN

What is exactly the story of these buses transporting migrants throughout Serbia?


----------



## pyramidxx

x-type said:


> so why are there no more migrants at Horgoš? because Serbian buses ride only to Batrovci/Bajakovo due to some H-SRB agreement?


https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/21646427725/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/21634887162/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/21620152246/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/21025222633/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/21458538348/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/21458633668/in/dateposted-public/


----------



## pyramidxx

GROBIN said:


> What is exactly the story of these buses transporting migrants throughout Serbia?


Do you know what is story??Look at the map..from its source to finale! They pass Turkish/Greece border over sea to island KOS or ****** (distance 5km)..after by ferry travel to Atheens..From Atheens to Macedonian border by trains or buses..Macedonia to Serbia also by taxi,trains,buses..In Serbia must go to refugee camp,where put their data,and after are allowed to go on,border with Hungary or Croatia..And don't remember,every day are coming new thousands of people,between 3-6.000 people,depends of weather conditions!By they way only money Serbia got for refugees is from Norway Kingdom,and UNHCR!I don't understand what is happening with European Union??They are in quarrel about quotes for 120.000 refugees,but that number will increase in only ONE MONTH!! 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/21025519163/in/dateposted-public/


----------



## bigic

The refugees are using the services of private bus companies. Both the refugees and the bus companies realise that the border with Hungary is now harder to cross than the border with Croatia.


----------



## x-type

pyramidxx said:


> https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/21646427725/in/dateposted-public/
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/21634887162/in/dateposted-public/
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/21620152246/in/dateposted-public/
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/21025222633/in/dateposted-public/
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/21458538348/in/dateposted-public/
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/21458633668/in/dateposted-public/


those are the photos before Horgoš was closed and reopened. today it is empty. i don't know what is the point of your post.



Alex_ZR said:


> Because migrants realized that they don't have any chance to cross Hungarian border.





bigic said:


> The refugees are using the services of private bus companies. Both the refugees and the bus companies realise that the border with Hungary is now harder to cross than the border with Croatia.


but from here they are crossing Hungarian border. and do you know why? because they are being registered while entering Croatia (what Slovenians say they are not).

this is really funny how the borders are actually porous. and i think if i would decide to cross the border illegaly somewhere far from any checkpoints, i would have got caught immediately.


----------



## Eulanthe

x-type said:


> this is really funny how the borders are actually porous. and i think if i would decide to cross the border illegaly somewhere far from any checkpoints, i would have got caught immediately.


I've never found Croatian borders to be well defended. I've spent hours upon hours wandering around the HR-SLO/BiH borders, and the only place where I've seen anything resembling a serious police presence was at Zeljava. Oh, and Bregana, where some fat ******* cop told me to get lost (before Croatian entry to the EU).

I saw people swimming openly from Novi Grad to Dvor na Uni and no-one was even slightly interested or even observing the people in the water. It would be easy as hell to cross the HR border except in some very obvious places.


----------



## Attus

In the EU-consultation last night the Austrian chancellor, Werner Faymann, asked the Hungarian government to open the borders and let every illegal migrants in and let them travel to Austria across Hungary.
I use the expression 'illegal migrant' because the majority of them are obviously not refugees. 
The whole topic of borders, border controls must be redefined, if it will be a major European trend to let every one into the EU.


----------



## Kiru

Attus said:


> In the EU-consultation last night the Austrian chancellor, Werner Faymann, asked the Hungarian government to open the borders and let every illegal migrants in and let them travel to Austria across Hungary.
> I use the expression 'illegal migrant' because the majority of them are obviously not refugees.
> The whole topic of borders, border controls must be redefined, if it will be a major European trend to let every one into the EU.


Uncontrolled migration leads to future disaster, do not know when EU is going to realise this. I am not against any religion, however in certain religion there is no such thing called SECULARISM which is a huge threat to democracy when the total voice of that particular society enhance in the future. Integration of migration only works if the society joining is willing to accept their host nation's norms, culture and the way of living. Out of these millions of refugees do not know how many of them will do this in the future. only time will tell


----------



## volodaaaa

Attus said:


> In the EU-consultation last night the Austrian chancellor, Werner Faymann, asked the Hungarian government to open the borders and let every illegal migrants in and let them travel to Austria across Hungary.
> I use the expression 'illegal migrant' because the majority of them are obviously not refugees.
> The whole topic of borders, border controls must be redefined, if it will be a major European trend to let every one into the EU.


It is pretty ridiculous. Me, as the inhabitant of EU, with all documents, without criminal past, is checked at every outer Schengen border (with average queues up to 3 hours) at the edge of breaching the human dignity, while people we know nothing about are forced to let go. :cheers:


----------



## Kiru

volodaaaa said:


> It is pretty ridiculous. Me, as the inhabitant of EU, with all documents, without criminal past, is checked at every outer Schengen border (with average queues up to 3 hours) at the edge of breaching the human dignity, while people we know nothing about are forced to let go. :cheers:


Welcome to bureaucracy. In UK, if you migrate legally , work hard, pay tax, and have good education yet they will treat you like crap, but if you come through back door as a illegal refugee you would be treated as VIP with all provided for.


----------



## pyramidxx

Attus said:


> In the EU-consultation last night the Austrian chancellor, Werner Faymann, asked the Hungarian government to open the borders and let every illegal migrants in and let them travel to Austria across Hungary.
> I use the expression 'illegal migrant' because the majority of them are obviously not refugees.
> The whole topic of borders, border controls must be redefined, if it will be a major European trend to let every one into the EU.


yes,that is good,but why Austria and Germany don't import immigrants directly from camps in Lebanon,Jordan,Syria or Turkey??Why is need they go walk alone and pay a lot of money for their way in Europe?There are millions of refugees and Europe can take all!! 3 millions are waiting,but maybe and 30 millions will going also..From Africa also some millions want come in Europe.


----------



## John Maynard

Was Schengen Area extended to Middle East and the Islamic State? When has this decision been taken? Because I am completely unaware of it :sly:.


----------



## cinxxx

^^Still Romania and Bulgaria are not good enough!


----------



## Eulanthe

All HR-SRB border crossings are now closed to all vehicles, with the exception of Tovarnik which is open for buses and cars only. Croatia has banned Serbian registered cars and citizens, and Serbia has banned Croatian registered trucks and goods produced in Croatia. I would expect a ban to come on HR citizens/vehicles to follow today...


----------



## Alex_ZR

Eulanthe said:


> and *Serbia* has banned Croatian registered trucks and goods produced *in Serbia*.


----------



## italystf

^^ That's really sad, I understand strict controls against illegal immigrants, but closing the border to all traffic and banning all vehicles registered in a certain country is bad. hno: The refugee crisis is really harming the stability of South-Eastern Europe.
I don't see why citizens of countries that haven't fought a war in the last 20 years should have their travel freedom restricted because of an ongoing war 2,000 km away.

I'm not a fan of EU regulating everything, but I think EU should take a common action to solve this problem, instead of letting the countries who are more affected by illegal immigration because of geography (Spain, Italy, Greece, Hungary, Croatia) to deal with the issue alone.
If Germany wants to accept migrants, it should organize intra-Schengen flights between Greece (where they arrive by boat from Turkey) and Germany, instead of letting them wandering illegally across several countries, sleeping in the streets, fighting with the police and paying thousands of euros to criminal human smugglers!


----------



## AsHalt

pyramidxx said:


> yes,that is good,but why Austria and Germany don't import immigrants directly from camps in Lebanon,Jordan,Syria or Turkey??Why is need they go walk alone and pay a lot of money for their way in Europe?There are millions of refugees and Europe can take all!! 3 millions are waiting,but maybe and 30 millions will going also..From Africa also some millions want come in Europe.


Something along the lines of Inter-government bureaucracy and logistical nightmare.


----------



## pyramidxx

italystf said:


> ^^ That's really sad, I understand strict controls against illegal immigrants, but closing the border to all traffic and banning all vehicles registered in a certain country is bad. hno: The refugee crisis is really harming the stability of South-Eastern Europe.
> I don't see why citizens of countries that haven't fought a war in the last 20 years should have their travel freedom restricted because of an ongoing war 2,000 km away.
> 
> I'm not a fan of EU regulating everything, but I think EU should take a common action to solve this problem, instead of letting the countries who are more affected by illegal immigration because of geography (Spain, Italy, Greece, Hungary, Croatia) to deal with the issue alone.
> If Germany wants to accept migrants, it should organize intra-Schengen flights between Greece (where they arrive by boat from Turkey) and Germany, instead of letting them wandering illegally across several countries, sleeping in the streets, fighting with the police and paying thousands of euros to criminal human smugglers!


YES!!I agree..Germany made GREAT MISTAKE!! INVITED people from Syria to Germany where will give asylum for all them!!After invasion they closed borders after 2 days!! And at all there are about 30% of Syrians,other are economic immigrants from Iraq,Afghanistan,Pakistan,Bangladesh,India,Ethiopia,Sudan,Gambia,Erithrea,Nigeria....So GERMANY MUST IMPORT IMMIGRANTS FROM CAMPS In Lebanon,Syria,Turkey or Jordan PLEASE!!!! STOP SMUGGLING WHAT IS PAYED BY Saudi Arabia and some Islamic states!!!They finance it and must be stopped very soon!!!


----------



## panchevo

why the hell are german bureaucrats still calling does people "refugees", and practically giving them blessings to arrogantly cross multiple borders wherever the hell they want to and without any documents?
furthermore, they criticize other countries for enforcing the law and stopping illegal border crossings???


----------



## feisibuke

*2015-03-10 drive-lapse from Udon Thani to Vientiane via Nong Khai*

http://youtu.be/FMnSZgJS1uw

Thailand–Laos border crossing 16:28–19:18


----------



## pyramidxx

x-type said:


> ok, but why nobody has balls to point on Arabic countries such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Jordan etc. to accept part of those migrants/refugees? they have shortly and openly said "no soup for you, come back one year" and the world is keeping its mouth shut. what is that? xenophobia? courage? oil-games?


Look what say in Kuwait : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZbCK95Zu_0 
Kuwaiti Official: "We Should Never Allow Refugees in our Country" !!!


----------



## John Maynard

^^ "Muslim Brothers" :tongue:.

I couldn't imagine what would happen if EU officials said that, especially the last sentence.


----------



## Verso

Hungarians laid down barbed wire on the Slovenian border. :shifty:


----------



## Corvinus

These articles say the "fast-installation wire barrier" on the SLO border was "only an experiment" and that these were removed on Friday, hours after being installed:

http://www.krone.at/Welt/Ungarn_baut_Zaun_an_Grenze_zu_Slowenien_wieder_ab-Gutes_Zeichen-Story-473690
http://www.origo.hu/itthon/percrolpercre/20150926-csak-kiserlet-volt-a-szloveniai-drotakadaly-menekult-horvatorszag.html?item=201509261352410

I guess it's a preparation for the case a fast intervention should become necessary (migrant wave detour after a HR border closure).


----------



## Verso

^^ But migrants don't go from Slovenia to Hungary. Btw, Slovenia now controls its border with Hungary, so all traffic coming from M70 to A5 is diverted through the Pince rest area.


----------



## Gyorgy

Verso said:


> ^^ But migrants don't go from Slovenia to Hungary. Btw, Slovenia now controls its border with Hungary, so all traffic coming from M70 to A5 is diverted through the Pince rest area.


Austria has an easy job closing it's border with Slovenia. And with some 5000 - 10 000 migrants per day, they could find their way trough Hungary.


----------



## John Maynard

Does Austria has fences along its border with Slovenia?

Anyway, goodbye Schengen :cheers:!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Dutch-German border at Zwartemeer / Schöninghsdorf in the 1980s.


----------



## pyramidxx

1980,s are coming back..Schengen is dead already!!


----------



## Sunfuns

I went for a walk today along a Swiss-German border in the forest. Probably crossed it back and forth a dozen times or more. Signs say that you are not supposed to be there at night, but during the day it's a normal hiking trail. So free movement of people is not dead just yet.


----------



## John Maynard

On Hiking trails, as well as ski areas i.a., you already didn't had "systematical" id/passport/goods checks, nor there were fixed border posts on them, well before Schengen Area agreements (12th of December 2008) as for Switzerland. 
I remember well going skiing between CH and France: only unannounced and random checks, and I never was controlled myself, as checks were even not so frequent.


----------



## MichiH

Sorry, I still don't understand why the Schengen Area thread was closed. The discussion just moved to this thread again hno:. Why is this thread not closed for the same reason?



> This thread has lost its relevance to Highways & Autobahns. Please check out the skybar for these topics, or better, some other place online. Thanks for understanding.


----------



## John Maynard

Why do you want this thread to be closed? I was simply replying to Sunfuns about his pedestrian border controls in Switzerland, prior to Schengen Agreements.

By the way, in CH long before Schengen "adhesion" and previously to the Bilateral II Treaty with the EU of 2004, traffic crossing the border was already not "systematically" controlled, as only about 2-3% of vehicles passing were checked . That means we already had Schengen before Schengen (as for what matters us) :lol:.

FYI: Presently, goods, and by extension all traffic can be checked at the border and "flying patrols", because of import limitations.


----------



## Eulanthe

Did Switzerland in modern times (say 1970's onwards) ever really control their border systematically? It's always been my impression that on the land border, they were more or less operating controls according to risk rather than blanket checks.


----------



## MichiH

John Maynard said:


> Why do you want this thread to be closed? I was simply replying to Sunfuns about his pedestrian border controls in Switzerland, prior to Schengen Agreements.


It's not about your last post. It's a general comment about most of the last posts (including posts from me). But it's a general problem in this thread.......


----------



## pyramidxx

Please put more photos and videos from border crossings!!!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> But it's a general problem in this thread.......


Yes, and it has been for a very long time, despite numerous threads elsewhere on SSC where one could discuss these issues. But if I close this thread, it will just spill over into the Roadside Rest Area - or worse, clog up the country threads.


----------



## italystf

Yesterday I did a daytrip to Rijeka, Croatia.
At the I-SLO border at Pesek there was no police at all.
At the SLO-HR border at Pasjak controls were regular, no queues or chaos. Since Croatia joined EU in 2013, controls are performed only on the Slovenian side. We give IDs to the police officer, he quickly opened it and looked if photos matched with our faces, gave them back and let us go. It took maybe 20 seconds.
On the way back, we handed our IDs to the officer, but he gave them back to us without even looking at them! I don't think that is legal.
Entering Italy from Slovenia, we didn't see any police again.


----------



## bogdymol

italystf said:


> On the way back, we handed our IDs to the officer, but he gave them back to us without even looking at them! I don't think that is legal.


At the BiH/HR border I didn't even give my ID card to the officer.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> But if I close this thread, it will just spill over into the Roadside Rest Area - or worse, clog up the country threads.


That's why I started the "Schengen Area" threat. It was closed for an unjustified reason. The same reason applies to this thread. I'd like to have reopened the "Schengen Area" thread again and move the discussion there.


----------



## italystf

I don't want to talk about politics, but... what is the interest of Hungary in building a wall along the Slovenian border? If an illegal immigrant would cross that border, he'll do it in H -> SLO direction, so why Hungary is interested in preventing illegal immigrants to leave the country?
Moreover, while H-SRB and H-RO border fences could have been justified with the task of controlling the outer Schengen border (as mandated by EU laws), the H-SLO border fence is a plain outrage to EU laws.


----------



## italystf

MichiH said:


> That's why I started the "Schengen Area" threat. It was closed for an unjustified reason. The same reason applies to this thread. I'd like to have reopened the "Schengen Area" thread again and move the discussion there.


We could reopen this thread in the Skybar, since it's not strictly road-related. Posts about Schengen can continue to be posted in the International border crossing thread, as long that they are about *road* traffic across borders.
Posts about Schengen applied to rail, air or sea traffic or about the Schengen agreement in general, should better stay outside the H&A section.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Do it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Discussion about refugees and general European policy does not belong in this forum. This forum is about road infrastructure, not migration, Merkel's position on refugees, border fences, etc.


----------



## MichiH

^^ But it affects to roads if border crossings are closed.


----------



## Eulanthe

italystf said:


> I don't want to talk about politics, but... what is the interest of Hungary in building a wall along the Slovenian border? If an illegal immigrant would cross that border, he'll do it in H -> SLO direction, so why Hungary is interested in preventing illegal immigrants to leave the country?
> Moreover, while H-SRB and H-RO border fences could have been justified with the task of controlling the outer Schengen border (as mandated by EU laws), the H-SLO border fence is a plain outrage to EU laws.


I said it elsewhere - Schengen doesn't stop Hungary (or anyone else) building a fence on the border. What it does is require border crossings to be free from control (or in their language, "obstructions"). So Hungary can have the entire border fenced if they want - but they cannot physically control the border crossings that exist. So if Hungary wants, they can close all the roads leading to the SLO border and fence it off - and it's legal. What wouldn't be legal is to have roads with permanent controls.

I don't think anyone envisioned anyone building barriers post-Schengen, but there's nothing stopping them from doing so.

edit : I've looked at the Schengen Borders Code, and it claims that the border may be crossed at any point. Could be fun where gardens stretch across borders...


----------



## Corvinus

So for a change, let's show a border from outside Europe: this is Lebombo border post between South Africa and Moçambique. As we see from the news report, border closures and aggressive mobs are not limited to Europe's migrant route:












> The border post between South Africa and Mozambique has been closed until further notice Friday after an unruly mob barricaded the N4 near Ressano Garcia, targeting trucks with South African registration numbers.


http://www.timeslive.co.za/africa/2015/04/17/lebombo-border-post-closed-sa-trucks-attacked-in-mozambique


----------



## volodaaaa

Eulanthe said:


> I said it elsewhere - Schengen doesn't stop Hungary (or anyone else) building a fence on the border. What it does is require border crossings to be free from control (or in their language, "obstructions"). So Hungary can have the entire border fenced if they want - but they cannot physically control the border crossings that exist. So if Hungary wants, they can close all the roads leading to the SLO border and fence it off - and it's legal. What wouldn't be legal is to have roads with permanent controls.
> 
> I don't think anyone envisioned anyone building barriers post-Schengen, but there's nothing stopping them from doing so.
> 
> edit : I've looked at the Schengen Borders Code, and it claims that the border may be crossed at any point. Could be fun where gardens stretch across borders...


I guess it anticipates the "unless stated otherwise" rule. You can't break into private property just because there is a border line identical with property territory.


----------



## Attus

italystf said:


> I don't want to talk about politics, but... what is the interest of Hungary in building a wall along the Slovenian border? If an illegal immigrant would cross that border, he'll do it in H -> SLO direction, so why Hungary is interested in preventing illegal immigrants to leave the country?


No. Hungary fears that later on, when H-HR border will be "safe" (i.e. closed for refugees), the Slovenian government will transfer lots of refugees to Hungary, just like the Croatians do it now. Croatian police transports 5-10,000 refugees to Hungary daily.


----------



## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Discussion about refugees and general European policy does not belong in this forum. This forum is about road infrastructure, not migration, Merkel's position on refugees, border fences, etc.


Right. But people want to discuss about it, and they want to discuss about it with other forum members they know well from other threads. So either you let them do it or you delete a lot of posts and ban a lot of forum members. 
Closing a thread which was (even if not fully orderly) dedicated to the topic and then let people ruin another thread discussing that topic, is, in my opinion, not a good idea.


----------



## volodaaaa

I might be wrong, but if the discussion about fences along Schengen area internal borders doesn't fit in Schengen Area thread, where it does?


----------



## MattiG

volodaaaa said:


> I might be wrong, but if the discussion about fences along Schengen area internal borders doesn't fit in Schengen Area thread, where it does?


How about peeking the subject of this forum? Has someone put fences on highways or autobahns? If yes then the discussion is not off-topic.

As the rather gentle moderator statement expressed, the suitable discussion forum for common politics might reside outside the SSC.


----------



## Festin

Attus said:


> Right. But people want to discuss about it, and they want to discuss about it with other forum members they know well from other threads. So either you let them do it or you delete a lot of posts and ban a lot of forum members.
> Closing a thread which was (even if not fully orderly) dedicated to the topic and then let people ruin another thread discussing that topic, is, in my opinion, not a good idea.





volodaaaa said:


> I might be wrong, but if the discussion about fences along Schengen area internal borders doesn't fit in Schengen Area thread, where it does?


Come to DLM:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=74


----------



## volodaaaa

MattiG said:


> How about peeking the subject of this forum? Has someone put fences on highways or autobahns? If yes then the discussion is not off-topic.
> 
> As the rather gentle moderator statement expressed, the suitable discussion forum for common politics might reside outside the SSC.


This forum is a perfect source of information. When I drove to CZ last weekend the first site to get information was this forum. I also provided some information for other users in case they follow my route or in case they want to avoid driving through Austria. 

Sprinkling this topic with little politics (you actially can't avoid) is not a crime. I saw no hatespeech on this forum at all. Just constructive discussion.


----------



## italystf

I've just opened this thread in the Domus Ludicrae Maximae:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=127417901#post127417901

*Immigration and custom laws in Europe*

Please post here not road-related discussions.


----------



## Eulanthe

volodaaaa said:


> I might be wrong, but if the discussion about fences along Schengen area internal borders doesn't fit in Schengen Area thread, where it does?


I think discussion about fences is ok (we spoke about the old PL-D border fence a few pages back) and discussion about physical security - just not the topic of refugees unless it's directly related to border closures.

An interesting question - has any old border crossing infrastructure been "reactivated"?


----------



## bigic

The thread already exists:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1812202


----------



## OulaL

When a border is closed, it is a fact that affects infrastructure, and that is a point worth a discussion right here.

But _why_ it is closed, is a question of politics, and has no relevance regarding infrastructure.

There are countless political forums out there, this just is not one of them.


----------



## Eulanthe

Something slightly interesting - I notice that both Norway and Sweden have been significantly beefing up their border crossings. 

I'll post more later, but have a look at this - https://www.google.pl/maps/@59.1081...H6EH7fMFe2yfBTJfKQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1


----------



## pyramidxx

bogdymol said:


> Entry into Germany and the Schengen area at München airport:


This is valid only for people with passport and documents!! People without passports and any documents are going by train from Greece over Serbia,Croatia and Slovenia to Austria directly...Never ago wasn't so easy to jump over borders in Europe)))))So I must say SCHENGEN NOT EXISTS!!!!


----------



## CSerpent

pyramidxx said:


> This is valid only for people with passport and documents!! People without passports and any documents are going by train from Greece over Serbia,Croatia and Slovenia to Austria directly...Never ago wasn't so easy to jump over borders in Europe)))))So I must say SCHENGEN NOT EXISTS!!!!


If I'm not mistaken this presents the external Schengen border at (Frankfurt I think?) airport.

Schengen does exist, but land (rail) travel is not as guarded as air/sea travel - especially when it's a point to point within Schengen.


----------



## NordikNerd

Both Sweden and Denmark indroduce border control from tomorrow. 

Swedish officials say the introduction of temporary border controls will help to register new arrivals and prevent people from staying in the country illegally. This means it would hinder people from transiting through the country to reach neighboring Finland and Norway.

If you do not have the right to reside in Sweden or seeking asylum you will be rejected at the border. The ferry companies will introduce identification checks at the german harbours so no one will be able to board a ferry to Sweden without the proper documents.


Tensions are mounting on the Slovenia-Croatia border after Slovenia started building a fence on disputed territory to stem an influx of migrants. 

Slovenian Foreign Minister Karl Erjavec has informed Austrian authorities that the razor-wire fence his country is erecting along the border with Croatia to stem the flow of migrants will be 80 kilometers (50 miles) long, according to the Austrian Press Agency.

Slovenia started erecting the fence Wednesday morning on two locations along its 670-kilometer (400-mile) border with Croatia.
Croatia authorities are claiming that the Slovenian fence has entered Croatian territory in seven locations and want it removed.


----------



## darko06

Good job, Denmark & Sweden!


----------



## Palance

CSerpent said:


> If I'm not mistaken this presents the external Schengen border at (Frankfurt I think?) airport.


Guess/Read again 



bogdymol said:


> Entry into Germany and the Schengen area at München airport:


----------



## CSerpent

Palance said:


> Guess/Read again


Whoops! :lol::nuts:


----------



## Highway89

France will impose border controls for one month from 30 November for the UN Conference on Climate Change in Paris.

Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34743783


----------



## Corvinus

N - RUS border crossing at Storskog near Kirkenes. This is the only (road) crossing between the two countries. Given the "no pedestrian" signs, this must be the Russian side, looking into Norway.










(Src: krone.at)


----------



## riiga

^^ It's almost certainly the Norwegian side judging by the road signs.


----------



## haddockman

https://www.google.bg/maps/place/St...2988!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0xf0e9bc08be2ad570!6m1!1e1

Looks like the Norwegian side.


----------



## haddockman

Highway89 said:


> France will impose border controls for one month from 30 November for the UN Conference on Climate Change in Paris.
> 
> Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34743783


I has a feeling that may be extended indefinitely.


----------



## bogdymol

I have planned a week-end trip to Strasbourg for the Christmas Market. The hotel is already booked... but on the other side of the border, in Germany.

:shifty:


----------



## Sunfuns

No reason why you couldn't go ahead with your plans assuming you possess a valid passport or ID card.


----------



## Palance

Corvinus said:


> N - RUS border crossing at Storskog near Kirkenes. This is the only (road) crossing between the two countries.


Which was once the border between Norway and Soviet Union.


----------



## CSerpent

Palance said:


> Which was once the border between Norway and Soviet Union.


Has anyone got a close up of the blue information sign? I'd quite like to read that.

It seems somewhat odd that this picture actually shows the Iron Curtain but looks not that uninviting compared to the BRD/DDR BRD/CSSR border!


----------



## ukraroad

Meanwhile on Ukr-Pol border there is another tension, this time not political but rather economical. The problem is, there are lately too big queues to cross the borders on Krakovets and Shehyni, up to 27 hours. How I passed the border I guess will be curious to hear. Imagine a road in the rich green fields. 12 km before it, I was stuck for 50 mins because a farmer was walking with cows on the E-class road. Coming to it, i was stuck behind 260 cars waiting impatiently to pasds on another side. Here came the guard with special tickets(so you didn't change the car and killed nobody)))). Imagine what? I saw a person(a local) giving 1000 Uah so he came thru. He did.(by the irony the 500 uah bankonote had the person who told that the gold is mud to freedom, but seems freedom is bought by mud). I chose the local border at budomierz and waited 30 cars to pass. Better than 260! I was told after that people were giving 50 zlotych to Ukr border guard to make fast passport comtrol and additional to make fast control of luggage(doesn't help in Poland). I heard too that if you have no green card(insurance), you may get a 750 zlotych fine, of which 150 is for "border existance". In fact it is just a bribe. No wonder Ukr borfers are richer to other parts of Ukraine. That is to pass in 4 instead of 20 hours: a total of 270 zlotych(65€). Corruption on borders will akways exist in Ukraine. And if you had seen those couples of people pushing one another near the passport control!!! Poles don't allow in turn to get up from vehicles unless the customs control checks your luggage. There are a few immigrants illegally crossing the border too. The salaries are 7 times higher in Europe than we have. Locals smuggle electronical appliances, in turn from Ukraine comes a 25% cheaper fuel.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

police controls in hendaye(F)-irun(E) border since saturday at the both sides








http://ep00.epimg.net/elpais/imagenes/2015/11/14/album/1447512144_737885_1447512384_album_normal.jpg








http://estaticos.elmundo.es/assets/multimedia/imagenes/2015/11/14/14474962511357.jpg








http://estaticos.efe.com/efecom/rec...2fU5Uw-P-2bHq2U5ie3GOMmd-P-2bLpXs7A-P-3d-P-3d








http://www.diariolibre.com/document...LAED/image_content_5808684_20151114203458.jpg


----------



## italystf

Palance said:


> Which was once the border between Norway and Soviet Union.


Was it possible to drive into Soviet Union from the West?


----------



## Kanadzie

haddockman said:


> I has a feeling that may be extended indefinitely.


Only against Belgium :lol:


----------



## NordikNerd

*Back in the USSR*



italystf said:


> Was it possible to drive into Soviet Union from the West?


You could drive your private or rented car on soviet roads to many cities, including Moscow, Leningrad, Kiev, Brest, Tallinn, Odessa and Tbilisi, as long as you filed your driving itinerary, through your travel agent, with Intourist and sticked to the route you specified. Intourist designated the hotels you would stay in, though you could make requests. You could camp, at one of the many official campgrounds throughout the Soviet Union, but you must have arranged these stopovers as well.

Intourist restricted driving distances by scheduling overnight stops no more than about 300 miles apart. Once you were traveling, you would understand why. While the roads were relatively good, some comparable to American highways, many main highways were still only two or three lanes. In addition, strict speed limits made 300 miles a respectable day's drive.

The Soviets called the mode of travel auto-tourist when you drove your private or rented car without a guide. 

You applied for this kind of travel as long in advance as possible. Back then
(and still?) you should have been aware of poor signage, bumpy roads, drunk drivers, cars driving at night without headlights, corrupt traffic cops.

I drove to St Petersburg twice in 1998, and back then you could still feel the post-soviet atmosphere in Russia, they still had the watchtowers along the rural roads and traffic cops were very grumpy.

You could rent a car in the Soviet Union or drive one into the country from Scandinavia or continental Europe. If you drove in, you had to get all the necessary documents for Soviet travel from the rental agency. You would need a ''green paper,'' which satisfied Soviet ownership and insurance requirements, a license plate of the car's country of origin, plus an identification sticker of that country for the back of the car in case of someone would peel off the sticker for a souvenir. Same thing with windshield wipers, they were usually stolen at night.

source:
Behind the Wheel in the Soviet Union
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/08/27/travel/behind-the-wheel-in-the-soviet-union.html?pagewanted=all


----------



## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving from Ayamonte (Spain) to Castro Marim (Portugal) 14.11.2015 Timelapse x4


----------



## volodaaaa

How do the regular border checks work on UA - RU borders? I mean the ones that are not disputable. Is there a form of protest or do the officers even trust each other?


----------



## haddockman

NordikNerd said:


> You could drive your private or rented car on soviet roads to many cities, including Moscow, Leningrad, Kiev, Brest, Tallinn, Odessa and Tbilisi, as long as you filed your driving itinerary, through your travel agent, with Intourist and sticked to the route you specified. Intourist designated the hotels you would stay in, though you could make requests. You could camp, at one of the many official campgrounds throughout the Soviet Union, but you must have arranged these stopovers as well.
> 
> Intourist restricted driving distances by scheduling overnight stops no more than about 300 miles apart. Once you were traveling, you would understand why. While the roads were relatively good, some comparable to American highways, many main highways were still only two or three lanes. In addition, strict speed limits made 300 miles a respectable day's drive.
> 
> The Soviets called the mode of travel auto-tourist when you drove your private or rented car without a guide.
> 
> You applied for this kind of travel as long in advance as possible. Back then
> (and still?) you should have been aware of poor signage, bumpy roads, drunk drivers, cars driving at night without headlights, corrupt traffic cops.
> 
> I drove to St Petersburg twice in 1998, and back then you could still feel the post-soviet atmosphere in Russia, they still had the watchtowers along the rural roads and traffic cops were very grumpy.
> 
> You could rent a car in the Soviet Union or drive one into the country from Scandinavia or continental Europe. If you drove in, you had to get all the necessary documents for Soviet travel from the rental agency. You would need a ''green paper,'' which satisfied Soviet ownership and insurance requirements, a license plate of the car's country of origin, plus an identification sticker of that country for the back of the car in case of someone would peel off the sticker for a souvenir. Same thing with windshield wipers, they were usually stolen at night.
> 
> source:
> Behind the Wheel in the Soviet Union
> http://www.nytimes.com/1989/08/27/travel/behind-the-wheel-in-the-soviet-union.html?pagewanted=all


It is still the case to this day that you have to submit a copy of your vehicle documents, Insurance and a detailed driving itinerary if you want to take your vehicle into the Russian Federation. Not much has changed in that regard.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

impossible to reach france due to the police controls ( irun )








http://www.diariovasco.com/noticias/201408/22/media/colas-a8.jpg


----------



## volodaaaa

What about the other direction?


----------



## NordikNerd

haddockman said:


> It is still the case to this day that you have to submit a copy of your vehicle documents, Insurance and a detailed driving itinerary if you want to take your vehicle into the Russian Federation. Not much has changed in that regard.


You need to bring your vehicle documents with you as you also have to do when you go to other countries too. When you apply for a visa, you must declare that you go by car and write down your licenseplate number. Be certain that your insurance is valid in Russia, it's usually not. Detailed driving itinerary is not needed, but if your visa says that you are only going to St Petersburg and you drive in Moscow, the police may ask you questions about where you are going to stay.

Most importantly, if you enter Russia with car, that certain car must exit Russia when you leave. That is if your car is demolished beyond repair in Russia you can't scrap it there, you must arrange transport for your wreck out of Russia. Same thing goes for Turkey. 

Remember that in Russia "money talks" this means you can ask the police officer or local bureaucrat: 

*Можно договорится?* and show him some $$$ and he will solve your problem in a heartbeat.


----------



## Ingenioren

CSerpent said:


> Has anyone got a close up of the blue information sign? I'd quite like to read that.
> 
> It seems somewhat odd that this picture actually shows the Iron Curtain but looks not that uninviting compared to the BRD/DDR BRD/CSSR border!












On the soviet/russian side is the border zone and barbwire fence further inland:








:banana:


----------



## CSerpent

Just as uninviting then!

The sign is pretty much the same as the current form it would seem then! The only difference here that I can spot is that Storskog at the time was still an official crossing but obviously restricted by the Soviets anyway.


----------



## CSerpent

Not dissimilar to the current sign nearby either then really!


----------



## cinxxx

^^I spot a difference: you may photograph Russian soil, only have to pay attention to restrictions. In Soviet times photography was strictly forbidden.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

volodaaaa said:


> What about the other direction?


no problem


----------



## alserrod

As far as I have read, Irun queues to approach border are 15 km long


----------



## VITORIA MAN

its correct


----------



## MattiG

Ingenioren said:


> On the soviet/russian side is the border zone and barbwire fence further inland:


A similar structure is in place at the Finnish/Russian border on the Russian side. In addition, there is a limited-access frontier zone on the Finnish side. Therefore, the actual border line may look rather lightweight:










The border is electronically guarded at least on the Finnish side. Due to the frontier zone, anyone moving there is a potential intruder, and can be detected rather easily.

In addition, there is a about 750 kilometers of reindeer fence in the North preventing the reindeer from crossing the border. 










Thus, if someone tries to cross the border somewhere between the checkpoints, there are several challenges:

1) Entering the Russian control zone
2) Crossing the Russian control zone
3) Crossing the actual border line equipped with a fence and an electronic surveillance
4) Crossing the Finnish frontier zone
5) Getting through the reindeer fence
6) Moving away from the uninhabited deserted area

The challenge #6 is not the easiest one.


----------



## pasadia

Long queue have been raported today on most important border crossing between Roumania and Hungaria (Nadlac and Bors). It seems that customs control is severe, for no reason in sight (other than recent terrorist attacks).


----------



## haddockman

Same on the Ruse-Giurgiu crossing. An hour or so wait to clear the border each way.


----------



## Eulanthe

Might this simply be because Hungary is now checking every EU citizen against SIS and not just waving people through like before?

It's only anecdotal evidence, but I've heard that Poland is now systematically scanning all passports on all border crossings as well as conducting detailed Customs checks.


----------



## bogdymol

On Tuesday I drove from Austria to Germany. Same standard lazy control at the border. 20 minutes lost. I was not stopped. 

I flew from Munchen to London and then back. Just standard controls, nothing special. 

Today I drove from Austria to Romania. At Austria/Hungary border I haven't seen any police, on either side. 

Entering Romania from Hungary took about 25 minutes. The Hungarian officer just looked in my ID card and car registration, and then he gave the documents to the Romanian officer, who searched something in the computer.


----------



## eucitizen

bogdymol said:


> On Tuesday I drove from Austria to Germany. Same standard lazy control at the border. 20 minutes lost. I was not stopped.
> 
> I flew from Munchen to London and then back. Just standard controls, nothing special.
> 
> Today I drove from Austria to Romania. At Austria/Hungary border I haven't seen any police, on either side.
> 
> Entering Romania from Hungary took about 25 minutes. The Hungarian officer just looked in my ID card and car registration, and then he gave the documents to the Romanian officer, who searched something in the computer.


In October, when going from Italy there were no controls on IT/A borders and then near German border I exited at Kufstein and entered Germany through a normal road , without controls. On motorways there were queues due to checks. I will do this also this week when going to Italy and return.

Anyway today my friend, who is a truck driver, passed the Mont Blanc and told me no french controls at all at the border.


----------



## eucitizen

Edit/Del


----------



## MichiH

bogdymol said:


> What's the current status at the border between Germany and France? I am driving this weekend in the area of Strasbourg, but the hotel is booked in Germany, so I will cross 2 times from Germany to France. I am not worried about paperwork, as I have everything needed, but I am worried about the waiting times at the border.
> 
> One friend that travels together with me said that he heard that, due to the "emergency" situation in France, they can deny the entrance of any person, even though they have all required paperwork. He heard that some people were denied entrance in the last month, for no reason at all. Is this true?


Have you had any problem or do you still stick at the border?


----------



## Eulanthe

cinxxx said:


> I'm planning to drive last weekend of December coming from Ptuj to Germany. I'm guessing there are border controls between SLO and A because of migrants.
> Which crossing would you recommend to lose the least time?


Mureck should be ok, although I found this - http://www.oeamtc.at/portal/situation-an-den-grenzen+2500+1635286 - that suggests that controls are taking place there. But traffic is normally very light there anyway, so it shouldn't waste so much time.

Interestingly, I notice on that site that the old border crossing at Spielfeld is closed because of the migrants.


----------



## cinxxx

^^Yep, cars are redirected on the motorway.
Also there is no sticker needed for the segment in both countries from the border to the first exit, because of that.


----------



## eeee.

I'll cross the border at Kufstein-Kiefersfelden soon. What delay has to be expected northbound in the evening? Experiences anyone?


----------



## c0sas

eeee. said:


> I'll cross the border at Kufstein-Kiefersfelden soon. What delay has to be expected northbound in the evening? Experiences anyone?


Can vary from 5 minutes, to up to one hour. On the weekends you should expect bigger delays.

You can inform yourself on the homepage of the austrian public radio - traffic service. oe3verkehrDOTorfDOTat (i cannot post links yet)


----------



## eucitizen

I crossed that border at evening last week and there was no queue. The control was really pathetic, the policeman was annoyed and barely looking at cars.
If you want to avoid queue, exit at Kufstein and enter Germany through a normal road, for xample the 171 there are no controls.


----------



## Eulanthe

Poland-USSR border at Terespol in 1980. 

Quite amazing to see how limited the infrastructure is. As it was mentioned before, traffic was low - but still, I'm surprised that it wasn't more developed on one of the only two border crossings available for everyone.


----------



## koko_vp

Inspection of the border between Bulgaria and Turkey by the Bulgarian prime minister Boyko Borisov and the prime minister of the UK David Cameron


----------



## bigic

Eulanthe said:


> Poland-USSR border at Terespol in 1980.
> 
> Quite amazing to see how limited the infrastructure is. As it was mentioned before, traffic was low - but still, I'm surprised that it wasn't more developed on one of the only two border crossings available for everyone.


On the picture are the coats of arms of Polish regions? I am surprised to see so much halos and crosses.


----------



## volodaaaa

bigic said:


> On the picture are the coats of arms of Polish regions? I am surprised to see so much halos and crosses.


Poland is one of the most religious countries in Europe - what is surprising on that?


----------



## FiveYears

volodaaaa said:


> Poland is one of the most religious countries in Europe - what is surprising on that?


The time, perhaps?


----------



## italystf

Probably they are historical coat of arms that predate communism period.


----------



## volodaaaa

FiveYears said:


> The time, perhaps?


I know... a lot of municipalities in my country was renamed, but CoA was retained.


----------



## garyjones027

volodaaaa said:


> I know... a lot of municipalities in my country was renamed, but CoA was retained.


During this time, Poland had 49 voivodeships (provinces) from 1975 to 1999. From 1999, it changed to 16 voivodeships. I think these are city coat of arms.


----------



## koszatek

These are coat of arms of some voivodeship cities (from the 49 cities), mainly from eastern Poland (voivodeships bordering with Soviet Union).
Edit: 
I noticed, that there was 9 voivodeships bordering with SU, but one CoA is missing. This one :lol:


----------



## LMB

volodaaaa said:


> Poland is one of the most religious countries in Europe - what is surprising on that?


What is surprising is your lack of historical knowledge. The crosses and halos come from middle ages, *around 1200's*. Then the saints and the crosses were a part of the culture. Vide your county's euro coins, they all contain crosses. 

Today Poland is spiritual, and parts of it are traditional, but it is not religious. There are more streets containing "saints" in Belgium, or in Munich, than in Poland.


----------



## bigic

OK, I thought the communists would change the coats of arms because they blatantly represented the "opiate of the masses".


----------



## volodaaaa

LMB said:


> What is surprising is your lack of historical knowledge. The crosses and halos come from middle ages, *around 1200's*. Then the saints and the crosses were a part of the culture. Vide your county's euro coins, they all contain crosses.
> 
> Today Poland is spiritual, and parts of it are traditional, but it is not religious. There are more streets containing "saints" in Belgium, or in Munich, than in Poland.












source: http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_341_en.pdf

It is not very reasonable to compare religiosity by the number of streets containing "saint". Communists were hypocrites in my country so they renamed all the municipalities and streets to be more atheistic. At the same time, they celebrated Christmas. We still did not renamed lot of them. But nobody insists on changing the coat of arms. The only changed coat of arms was the CoA of Slovakia (but it was made due to the fact, the CoA was used by nazis).

Examples:
City Saint George was renamed to George by the Bratislava. In 1990 renamed back.
City Saint Martin was renamed to Martin. The name has been still used.
City Saint Cross upon Hron was renamed to Glory upon hron. The name has been still used.

If Poland has fewer street named after saints than Belgium, it can be the consequence of renaming, not the indicator of religiosity.


----------



## italystf

Some dictatorial regimes were paranoid in changing names that were considered "offensive" for the ideology.
For example, the Slovenian town of Lucija was called Santa Lucia when it was part of Italy. In Slovenian it would have been something like Sveti Lucija (I'm not sure about the declinations in Slovenian), but they called it just Lucija because having a name with a saint was not acceptable by the communist regime.

On the other hand, the town of Pasian Schiavonesco, near Udine, was renamed Basiliano by the fascist regime because Schiavonesco reminded "sclavon", that was the Friulian word for "slav", and in fascist Italy was considered outrageous to have a town whose name reminded the slavic ethnicity.
San Dorligo della Valle, near Trieste was once called Dolina, that means "valley" in Slovenian (now that word is also used in Italian to refer to a particular type of valleys causated when the roof of a valley collapses, commonly found in Carso area). Again, this name was not regarded acceptable by fascists and they called in San Dorligo della Valle. This because the saint patron of the village was Sant'Ulderico (in Italian) and they invented a mix between Sant'Ulderico and Dolina, that became San Dorligo. However that name is wrong, as there isn't any saint called Dorligo.
Opicina, also near Trieste, was renamed Poggioreale sul Carso, because Opicina was a too close translation of the Slovenian name Opcina. However, this one returned to the old name in the 1960s.


----------



## LMB

volodaaaa said:


> If Poland has fewer street named after saints than Belgium, it can be the consequence of renaming:lol:, not the indicator of religiosity.


...says the one with the cross on the coin. 

Anyway, this is a forum about border crossings. If you want to continue, please select another one.


----------



## bogdymol

MichiH said:


> Have you had any problem or do you still stick at the border?


I am still waiting at the border to cross :lol:


From the beginning:

Austrian/German border on the motorway nearby Salzburg: all traffic diverted on one lane, on the "overtaking" lane police has established a provisional container for them in case of bad weather, in the parking area they installed a large tent (to fit a bus if they want to check it). I was not stopped. Lost time about 3-5 minutes.

Germany/France border entering France on N353 south of Strasbourg: French police present, they stopped randomly some cars. There was a bus in front of me, they stopped it and had a 10-seconds chat with the driver. Then they let him go. I was not stopped. Lost time 2 minutes. Photo:










^^ Same border in the evening, there were no controls on the other direction (France to Germany).

Germany/France border at Kehl/Strasbourg: random controls on both directions (done only by the French Police on the French side). I was not stopped. No lost time. Photo:









^^ The white/red fences on the right were there because of a construction site.

Crossing from France into Germany at Gambsheim / Rheinau in the evening: no police presence on either side.

Crossing from Germany into Austria at the border nearby Passau: no checks in my direction, but there were checks in the other direction (small queue).


----------



## haddockman

There is often a control going from Austria into Germany for vignettes.


----------



## Eulanthe

Found this - there are numerous views of the old border in Cieszyn/Cesky Tesin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QJSVv8XSTM


----------



## italystf

De facto border between Serbian-controlled and Albanian-controlled areas of Kosovo in 2005:


----------



## haddockman

As some people might be aware Ireland has started issuing passport cards to its' citizens. There have been reports of border officials across Europe refusing to accept them as valid ID for crossing borders. 

Who is responsible for telling the various agencies what a valid ID is? Which EU body would one make a complaint to?


----------



## Corvinus

italystf said:


> De facto border between Serbian-controlled and Albanian-controlled areas of Kosovo in 2005:


Clear stance on communication in Kosovo!

That message "malicious or provocative behaviour shall be repressed immediately" was just missing at the border crossing Röszke after closedown of the "green border". 

In fact this message belongs to every Schengen outer border post ...


----------



## [atomic]

haddockman said:


> As some people might be aware Ireland has started issuing passport cards to its' citizens. There have been reports of border officials across Europe refusing to accept them as valid ID for crossing borders.
> 
> Who is responsible for telling the various agencies what a valid ID is? Which EU body would one make a complaint to?





> The Irish Passport Card, can be used by Irish citizens for travel within the EU/EEA and Switzerland.


source

I would like to know why they call it Passport card and not ID card since this is pretty much what it is. Besides the fact that that one must have a valid Passport, be over 18 (wtf?!?) and can't travel outside Europe.
So it is for those who don't have a drivers license (but have a passport) and/or orefer the smaller size.
And the Best: it is only 35Euros :nuts::cheers:



> Who is responsible for telling the various agencies what a valid ID is? Which EU body would one make a complaint to?


The document is intended to be used within the EU/EEA so there is noone to complain to. 
Maybe this is planned to be valid in more places once (if) it is accepted by the people.


----------



## haddockman

The problem at the moment it is only sporadically accepted even within the EU. 

I was refused both entering and leaving Bulgaria. People have been detained in CDG. Czech police have refused them also. There must be some central body in the EU that can be complained to about this.

That said Switzerland accepted it no bother.


----------



## MattiG

haddockman said:


> The problem at the moment it is only sporadically accepted even within the EU.
> 
> I was refused both entering and leaving Bulgaria. People have been detained in CDG. Czech police have refused them also. There must be some central body in the EU that can be complained to about this.
> 
> That said Switzerland accepted it no bother.


It does not qualify a passport, and it does not claim to be a national identity card. Not a big surprise it is widely rejected.


----------



## TrueBulgarian

MattiG said:


> It does not qualify a passport, and it does not claim to be a national identity card. Not a big surprise it is widely rejected.


It's a valid document to travel within the EU/EEA and Switzerland. 

Border control is going to get used to it, give it some time. The Irish authorities should have just called it ID Card (Passport Card sounds weird in Europe). I don't think there's a centralized EU agency dealing with letting the border control officials know, it's more of a national matter. Just be persistent in saying that it is a valid document to travel within the EU. When I was at Dublin Airport in 2008, they refused to let me travel with my Bulgarian ID card, as they were not sure whether Bulgaria is in the EU (joined in 2007). In the end, they opened Wikipedia on the Border control desk and let me pass (not the most reliable source, I know)... :nuts: :lol: Hasn't happened to me ever since.


----------



## Eulanthe

It's partially the fault of the Irish - the document should be listed on PRADO - http://www.consilium.europa.eu/prado/en/prado-start-page.html

But their Irish Passport card should be accepted - it says clearly that it's a passport, it has all the information needed and so on. I wouldn't back down in this case.


----------



## MattiG

TrueBulgarian said:


> It's a valid document to travel within the EU/EEA and Switzerland.


If the target country accepts it. Like any other document.

The card entitles to *leave *Ireland for EU/EAA and CH. Whether it entitles to *enter *a country or not, is up to that country.


----------



## garethni

MattiG said:


> If the target country accepts it. Like any other document.
> 
> The card entitles to *leave *Ireland for EU/EAA and CH. Whether it entitles to *enter *a country or not, is up to that country.


I asked the Passport Office (the Irish one) and they told me that prior to launch all EU/EEA/CH border authorities agreed to accept the card and that it was likely the info had not filtered down to the front-line staff.


----------



## Eulanthe

MattiG said:


> If the target country accepts it. Like any other document.
> 
> The card entitles to *leave *Ireland for EU/EAA and CH. Whether it entitles to *enter *a country or not, is up to that country.


I'm not sure that's correct. I seem to recall that there's an EU directive specially dealing with this matter - in short, the ID card is considered to be a valid travel document within the EEA/CH and therefore cannot be refused.

It's buried somewhere in the freedom of movement stuff, but I can't find it right now.

Got it. 

http://register.consilium.europa.eu/doc/srv?l=EN&f=ST 15010 2006 INIT



> 3.1 Persons enjoying the Community right of free movement
> 
> 3.1.1 Persons enjoying the Community right of free movement are authorised to cross the border of a Member State on the basis of the following documents, as a general rule:
> 
> EU, EEA, CH citizens: identity card or passport;
> members of the family of EU and EEA citizens who are nationals of a third country: passport. They may also be required to have an entry visa, if they are nationals of a third country subject to the visa obligation, unless they are in possession of a valid residence permit or card, issued by a Member State (or by EEA countries);
> members of the family of CH citizen who are nationals of a third country: passport. They may also be required to have an entry visa, if they are nationals of a third country subject to the visa obligation.
> 
> 3.1.2 However, if a person enjoying the Community right of free movement does not have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State concerned must, before turning him/her back, give such person every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to him/her within a reasonable period of time or corroborate or prove by other means that he/she is covered by the right of free movement.


There is absolutely no basis for them to refuse entry.


----------



## Kanadzie

[atomic] said:


> source
> 
> I would like to know why they call it Passport card and not ID card since this is pretty much what it is. Besides the fact that that one must have a valid Passport, be over 18 (wtf?!?) and can't travel outside Europe.
> So it is for those who don't have a drivers license (but have a passport) and/or orefer the smaller size.


I dunno... The Irish passport card sounds like an ID card which just sounds tremendously totalitarian though I guess Continentals are so accustomed to it not to care 

I know that reality of course just means you get "recorded" elsewhere (e.g. North American importance of driving licenses) but it seems so wrong...


----------



## garethni

Eulanthe said:


> It's partially the fault of the Irish - the document should be listed on PRADO


I had always hoped border guards could consult FADO if needed. But that would not help much anyway if the Irish govt had not supplied any details. I have wondered how much gets placed on PRADO compared to what the experts get to see.


----------



## garethni

Kanadzie said:


> I dunno... The Irish passport card sounds like an ID card which just sounds tremendously totalitarian though I guess Continentals are so accustomed to it not to care


I had a UK ID card. The foolish hype surrounding it leading to its abolition is still a sore point for me (and the lack of refund for just over a year's usage). Well, it is true that the National Identity Register the govt set up alongside it was quite scary, but they could have got rid of it and kept the card itself as a basic form of ID and travel document. The card blanks were not pre-printed with the name of the document so they could have been been adaptable and produced a passport card years before the Irish!


----------



## Eulanthe

The frustrating thing for me about ID cards is that I have a British passport, so no ID card for me. But Poland issues an ID card to permanent residents that looks entirely like an ID card - it has all the data needed (citizenship, name, date of birth, address, the lot) and it's also biometric. It would be trivial for them to say that it's also valid for EU travel - but of course, they explicitly said that it isn't. On the other hand, Estonia issues ID cards to EU citizens that are also valid for crossing EU borders with.


----------



## alserrod

So does it happen in Spain, providing you have a valid residence in the country.

It wouldn't be biometric at this instant but something like this










very similar to national documents (change colours and few other things)

It hasn't still a chip but surely, current Spanish electronic ID cards doesn't worth and we are waiting for card 3.0


----------



## haddockman

Bulgaria issues these to EU citizens resident in Bulgaria.








I don't believe they are valid for use outside the Republic of Bulgaria. Nothing on the card indicates that it is not valid for travel.
The Romanian Border police won't accept them nor will the Bulgarian border police when returning to Bulgaria.
I have used my card to as ID to check into hotels in Germany and Austria without issues.


----------



## Corvinus

Belgium and the Netherlands to exchange a piece of territory of some 15 soccer fields in size

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/belgium-netherlands-exchange-territory-fight-36005546



> Preparatory work has been done and the two nations' parliaments should be able to complete a deal sometime in 2016, Neven said, almost two centuries after the 1843 border posts were set. And all with a smile on everyone's face, even though Belgium will get only a tiny part around a lock that has been built to promote traffic between the two nations.


Any more info on this?


----------



## MattiG

Corvinus said:


> Belgium and the Netherlands to exchange a piece of territory of some 15 soccer fields in size
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/belgium-netherlands-exchange-territory-fight-36005546
> 
> Any more info on this?


Most probably this place: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8024978,5.6987282,15z

The river has changed its flow after the border line was set up.

It is somewhat surprising that Belgium and the Netherlands seem to have not prepared for this kind of changes. 

The border river between Finland and Sweden moves constantly, and the governments have agreed to carry a demarcation every about 25 years. In addition, the states have agreed on a concept of "sovereignty islands". There are a few such islands having buildings belonging to a property of either side of the river. Even if an island belonging to a Finnish property were moved to Sweden, the Finnish jurisdiction would apply, and vice versa.


----------



## Aokromes

That's why using rivers for territory delimitation is a bad idea, with Galileo/Glonas/GPS there is no need anymore of use rivers for delimitation.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Tell that to Mason & Dixon


----------



## Attus

Aokromes said:


> That's why using rivers for territory delimitation is a bad idea, with Galileo/Glonas/GPS there is no need anymore of use rivers for delimitation.


Hey, do you know the usually rivers are not used for borders for better navigation? ;-)) (Or actuallly they ARE used for navigation, if you know that this word originally means sailing )


----------



## MrAkumana

alserrod said:


> So does it happen in Spain, providing you have a valid residence in the country.
> 
> It wouldn't be biometric at this instant but something like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> very similar to national documents (change colours and few other things)
> 
> It hasn't still a chip but surely, current Spanish electronic ID cards doesn't worth and we are waiting for card 3.0


Actually these cards are only issued to non-EU nationals. EU nationals just receive a green paper with their spanish VAT number (no photo or anything) and are required to carry their own national ID cards (italian, french, german etc).


----------



## italystf

Turkish - Iranian border near Bazargan


----------



## Eulanthe

Today's "where is it?" historical question : 

https://youtu.be/2n1sI71rIZ0?t=21

And especially...

https://youtu.be/2n1sI71rIZ0?t=90

It must be the DDR-West Berlin border, but where on earth existed such thorough checks on entry to West Berlin/West Germany? I don't understand German, so maybe someone here might figure it out? 

The whole video is worth a watch - there's quite a lot of historical footage of border controls there, including in the U-Bahn in Berlin.


----------



## Attus

No idea about which checkpoint it is. 
The whole story is about Polish citizens. In 1989 Polish citizens were free to travel to West Berlin and many of them travelled in order to sell there something. In the video we can see custom checks.


----------



## Attus

MrAkumana said:


> Actually these cards are only issued to non-EU nationals. EU nationals just receive a green paper with their spanish VAT number (no photo or anything) and are required to carry their own national ID cards (italian, french, german etc).


The same in Germany.
Unfortunately in Hungary there is an old law: if you are Hungarian citizen but no resident in Hungary, you may not have an ID card. So my (Hungarian citizen resident in Germany) only identification document is my passport.


----------



## Eulanthe

Attus said:


> No idea about which checkpoint it is.
> The whole story is about Polish citizens. In 1989 Polish citizens were free to travel to West Berlin and many of them travelled in order to sell there something. In the video we can see custom checks.


This is really strange, because everything I've read suggested that customs checks were only random (like we can see in the U-Bahn in the video) - but those checks at the border crossing look to be systematic to me. 

If it is the DDR-West Berlin border, then it must be at Dreilinden as I don't think any other West Berlin border crossing had anything resembling a modern border crossing.


----------



## italystf

Border crossing between Israel and Palestine, on the road between Jerusalem and Betlehem

So, Palestinian can enter Israel but not vice-versa? I though it was the other way round.
Vehicles on the photo are Israeli (plates, Hebrew script, .il domain), so I don't understand.


----------



## hjf

Eulanthe said:


> This is really strange, because everything I've read suggested that customs checks were only random (like we can see in the U-Bahn in the video) - but those checks at the border crossing look to be systematic to me.


26 years ago it was not strange, but in the eyes of the Westgermans a serious issue. It was considered smuggling and loss of tax revenue, the custom officers were after. The total amounts recovered were marginal when considering the then Westgerman budget, but the media coverage conveyed and established a different (distorted) public perception. Sidenote: Does this ring a bell? It should, because media coverage these days is...


Eulanthe said:


> If it is the DDR-West Berlin border, then it must be at Dreilinden as I don't think any other West Berlin border crossing had anything resembling a modern border crossing.


Well, Stolpe/Heiligensee (opened in the mid-80s) was also accessible by Poles and in fact would have been chosen if they would have been coming from the Baltic or Sczeczin. The signs to be seen in the background though seem to be somewhat older, thus suggesting it was indeed Dreilinden/Drewitz.


----------



## Eulanthe

hjf said:


> 26 years ago it was not strange, but in the eyes of the Westgermans a serious issue. It was considered smuggling and loss of tax revenue, the custom officers were after. The total amounts recovered were marginal when considering the then Westgerman budget, but the media coverage conveyed and established a different (distorted) public perception. Sidenote: Does this ring a bell? It should, because media coverage these days is...


Thank you! So much is written about the East German controls, but information about the West Berlin/West Germany controls is very hard to find. I don't speak German, so it's not so easy to find - and Polish sources mainly talk about how Poles went there to sell things and how the border was more or less open for them. 

What's very interesting about that video is that it shows that the Western controls were also thorough - including the guy physically forcing one guy into a room to check him. 



> Well, Stolpe/Heiligensee (opened in the mid-80s) was also accessible by Poles and in fact would have been chosen if they would have been coming from the Baltic or Sczeczin. The signs to be seen in the background though seem to be somewhat older, thus suggesting it was indeed Dreilinden/Drewitz.


I have to shamefully admit that this is the first time I've heard about Stolpe/Heiligensee - for whatever reason, I didn't pick up on it before. Again, usual problem though - plenty of sources about GuST Stolpe, very little about Heiligensee. 

Here's a picture of Heiligensee. When I look at the video, I think it was there - the building is a single story, like in Heiligensee, and it's also white.


----------



## Proof Sheet

*Anyone know what is going on here?*

This is on the Maine/Quebec border. All of the access is from Quebec and it leads to some isolated buildings on the Maine side. Any idea what is going on here? To the north east you can see the border swath but this cleared area is in Maine.


https://www.google.ca/maps/place/46....7710411,633m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0

There is a similar unusual place here.

https://goo.gl/maps/KVtopAChPHk

This one looks like a runway close to the border and nothing on the Quebec side.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ curiously that very road is listed in the Toponomy Commission (oh Quebec, there is a bureacuracy for everything...)
http://www.toponymie.gouv.qc.ca/ct/ToposWeb/Fiche.aspx?no_seq=113174


----------



## Penn's Woods

Proof Sheet said:


> This is on the Maine/Quebec border. All of the access is from Quebec and it leads to some isolated buildings on the Maine side. Any idea what is going on here? To the north east you can see the border swath but this cleared area is in Maine.
> 
> 
> https://www.google.ca/maps/place/46....7710411,633m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0
> 
> There is a similar unusual place here.
> 
> https://goo.gl/maps/KVtopAChPHk
> 
> This one looks like a runway close to the border and nothing on the Quebec side.


"What's going on there"? In that part of Maine, not much.... :jk:

Seriously, it is strange, though. Huge swaths of northern Maine are owned by timber companies. That one farm sitting there right on the border.... I wonder if that's been there since the border was actually finalized (by the Webster-Ashburton Treaty of 1842).


----------



## Penn's Woods

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ curiously that very road is listed in the Toponomy Commission (oh Quebec, there is a bureacuracy for everything...)
> http://www.toponymie.gouv.qc.ca/ct/ToposWeb/Fiche.aspx?no_seq=113174


It's in the "Ville" of Saint-Pamphile!


----------



## alserrod

Is it legal to cross that Canadian-USA border or you may go to a booth?


----------



## General Maximus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Speed limit sign. You'll see this at almost every European border.


The UK version at Dover on the A20. I do not agree with the scale, on the motorway they insist in slowing me down with 3 km/h.


----------



## haddockman

Eulanthe said:


> The strange and remarkable thing to me about the USA/Canada border is that they don't have exit controls and that they have separate border stations, even at borders that have very light traffic.
> 
> You would think by now that they would suss out that working together from one large border station makes more sense in many smaller areas. There's a great example I've found - Estcourt Station - Pohénégamook Border Crossing (US/CA)
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/@47.456...4!1swfCucXj5ZjFKwFiTxQkBjw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> Canadian Port of Entry
> 
> The US border station is further up that road. But...what's this? What's this I found behind the Canadian border?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, a petrol station? That's nothing special...but wait, what's this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's in the United States...?
> 
> From what I've read online, if you visit the petrol station, you need to drive onwards up to the US border crossing, report there, then turn round back into Canada, then cross back into the United States to actually buy fuel, then turn round back into Canada and report immediately to the Canadian Port of Entry. Madness, and a single building to cater for both Canadian and American controls would make far more sense in such a place.


What would happen if you simply used the gas station and swung back round and went into Canada?


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ Arrested by US Border Patrol and given a stern lecture
Probably before you even get the gas cap undone


----------



## Eulanthe

^^ if only...

http://articles.latimes.com/2003/feb/16/news/adna-mborder16

Hard to tell, but from different articles online, it looks the US border crossing is here - 

http://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=Estcourt Station #map=18/47.45519/-69.22771

To the west of the petrol station - it must be one of the two buildings on American territory, though it also seems that the border crossing exists solely because of the petrol station, which is surreal. I'll try calling the border station tomorrow and see if the person in duty will answer some questions.


----------



## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> Would this be the old Spanish border post?
> 
> https://www.google.es/maps/@43.2907...4!1sbHnQCpuEGX4VaLrlymWuTA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> It's quite amazing how quickly the border has become meaningless in areas with the same currency and within the EU and Schengen. Yet within more or less the same timeframe, some divided ex-YU towns now see far stronger controls.


I do not know... today it is a police station. Seems to be very big compared big former French customs.

By the way, have glanced the area and... Spain is different. Just before the border there is a roundabout with two directions into France. Both of them have no other indication that... pointing "France". That's all.

Previous traffic sign talks about name of hotels and shops in the area


It is really different, I know...


----------



## CSerpent

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ Arrested by US Border Patrol and given a stern lecture
> Probably before you even get the gas cap undone


Where exactly is the US CBP post? I can't seem to spot it on OSM or Google Maps.


----------



## General Maximus

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ Arrested by US Border Patrol and given a stern lecture
> Probably before you even get the gas cap undone


But where is the US Border Patrol? They can't touch you when you're in Canada, and for them to reach that gas station they have to go through Canada?


----------



## haddockman

They probably have ATVs and come cross country?


----------



## OulaL

Sorry about the darkness, though that probably helps making the point.

This is road 70 in Idre, Sweden, 35 km before the Norwegian border.










When going to Røros, turn left here... unless you are transporting stuff, in which case turn right to the parking area and report to the customs. Failure to do so and continuing to the border may make a crime.

See the white sign in the picture? It's the only sign of any authority you'll ever see on this road. If there is a random check on the Norwegian side, it's already too late to explain if you failed to report here.


----------



## Eulanthe

General Maximus said:


> But where is the US Border Patrol? They can't touch you when you're in Canada, and for them to reach that gas station they have to go through Canada?


The border post is just to the west of the gas station, located to the side of the Canadian frontier road (but in US territory) - I think. The strangest thing is that after clearing the US control, you need to go back into Canada to access US territory - that must be pretty unique in the world. There's a similar petrol station in Metkovic, Croatia - but as far as I know, there's no obligation to report to Bosnian and Croatian police before using it.

What they do is come in through the back roads - there are logging roads that allow you to reach the gas station through the woods, although it appears to be a lengthy journey to get to that point. 

The interesting question is how fuel gets delivered to that gas station...


----------



## OulaL

Continuing from my post above: 

The white sign is not very clear, but that's what you get in the real place anyway when driving in the darkness. It says "Tull Customs Svensk-Norsk tullklarering". However, the prominent thing in the sign is that it points to a parking area. If you are not particularly searching for a parking area, you may simply skip the rest of the sign entirely.


----------



## General Maximus

Eulanthe said:


> The border post is just to the west of the gas station, located to the side of the Canadian frontier road (but in US territory) - I think. The strangest thing is that after clearing the US control, you need to go back into Canada to access US territory - that must be pretty unique in the world. There's a similar petrol station in Metkovic, Croatia - but as far as I know, there's no obligation to report to Bosnian and Croatian police before using it.
> 
> What they do is come in through the back roads - there are logging roads that allow you to reach the gas station through the woods, although it appears to be a lengthy journey to get to that point.
> 
> The interesting question is how fuel gets delivered to that gas station...


Probably through transit papers - the same they would use when transporting goods from mainland USA to Alaska via Canada...


----------



## Kanadzie

Eulanthe said:


> The interesting question is how fuel gets delivered to that gas station...


From truck from Quebec
There are big refineries in the Levis area (south shore of Quebec city)
The truck sees the border station for paperwork, then backs up...


----------



## Eulanthe

That's a huge difference between Europe and US/CA - here, not all border crossings would be equipped to deal with such imports. A lot of smaller crossings (particularly between HR/BiH - but pre-Schengen was also the same) are only for passengers and their baggage - there's no possibility of commercial imports at those crossings.

OulaL - I think that actually, it's not as you say. Swedish Customs say that the customs station there is only open by appointment, and there's no possibility of making a customs declaration on that border by just driving up and declaring what you have. If you look on Street View, you can see that there's no infrastructure connected with making any declaration - unlike on other Norwegian border crossings. Wikipedia says that some crossings were closed after the Nordic countries joined Schengen, so maybe this was one of them?

https://www.google.com/maps/@61.871...4!1suRpGBQZPyt7CGjv1YNIzvw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 - here's the actual border - and as you can see, clearly infrastructure did exist at one time but no longer.

Normal Swedish-Norwegian border crossings look like this - 

Norwegian 

https://www.google.com/maps/@59.487...4!1sZwZ2okPGPIpYmWZSqXZ7-Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Swedish 

https://www.google.com/maps/@63.317...kAwgtPKl_BdhVFbpCg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

The Idre crossing is not a normal crossing approved for taking goods in excess of the duty-free limits, so that's why there isn't any infrastructure there. It's actually a bit stupid that Sweden and Norway don't make it clearer - for instance, the Swiss have such signs at all border crossings.

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.199...03&h=100&yaw=327.66638&pitch=0!7i13312!8i6656

But you would think that in today's world, it would make sense for every Norwegian border crossing with Finland and Sweden to be equipped with videophones so that people can make declarations rather than forcing them to make appointments or drive a hell of a long way round just to make a declaration.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ I find that a kind of weird thing.
It's true that major border crossings (e.g. motorways, major roads) have a whole dedicated commercial import / export control office and specific infrastructure for trucks to cross (e.g. inspection window is higher)

I think if you tried to cross a small border with truck you might get a lot of questions, except if you're local traffic.

But ultimately what equipment is needed? Any paperwork form should be there or easily printed...


----------



## OulaL

Røros and Mora are 310 km apart and signposted from each other (via Idre). There's no sign whatsoever warning about the customs policy, nor are there any restrictions on trucks.

Not only that, this is also one of the shortest (though certainly not fastest) routes between Stockholm and Trondheim.

I just did a delivery to Trondheim, though I entered via Storlien (E14) and declared there (no problems); and exited via Idre (without cargo) so no harm done. I just wonder if many others make a mistake here.


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> Sorry about the darkness, though that probably helps making the point.
> 
> This is road 70 in Idre, Sweden, 35 km before the Norwegian border.
> 
> When going to Røros, turn left here... unless you are transporting stuff, in which case turn right to the parking area and report to the customs. Failure to do so and continuing to the border may make a crime.
> 
> See the white sign in the picture? It's the only sign of any authority you'll ever see on this road. If there is a random check on the Norwegian side, it's already too late to explain if you failed to report here.


What is your problem here?

It is the transport operator's responsibility to get the goods to be declared, and to find out when and where this can happen. In the Schengen area where the border crossed anywhere, it is not possible to have a customs office at every border crossing point.

The international cargo is rather a complex playground from the paperwork point of view. The customs operations are not necessarily performed at the borders. In fact, they are not necessarily performed at customs offices at all, but over the web. 

The commercial transport between Norway and the EU is handled by T1 transit documents. The T1 is opened by the customs at the country of departure, and it entitles to move the goods to the customs of the destination country without ceremonies at the borders.


----------



## OulaL

MattiG said:


> What is your problem here?
> 
> It is the transport operator's responsibility to get the goods to be declared, and to find out when and where this can happen. In the Schengen area where the border crossed anywhere, it is not possible to have a customs office at every border crossing point.


It's not my problem, since I actually did find this out in advance (and chose my route accordingly). But it might be someone else's.

I agree on the first part, but not the second. Yes, anyone operating a transport business should know that goods imported to Norway must be declared - but not necessarily where. That's what signs are for. If the customs is not at the border, it is not too much to ask for a sign at least telling where it is.

FIN-N border is better; for instance when leaving E6 towards Polmak/Nuorgam there is a sign telling the opening hours for the customs post.

Also, not everyone is a professional. There may even be tourists who have stuff in excess. Theoretically, there may even be Swedes driving around for fun and not knowing that Röros is in Norway, when spelled with a Swedish ö. It's not that unusual over the world to put up signs when you're about to exit a country. Especially when crossing the border would break a law.


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## Eulanthe

You're right. It's absolutely stupid that there is nothing to warn you that you're crossing a Customs barrier at non-manned borders. When you compare it to how the situation looks around the Swiss border, you can really see that it's not acceptable to be able to cross the border without any warning.

While it's obviously the obligation of the importer to be familiar with the rules, there should still be some sort of possibility to make a declaration - even if it's just a verbal declaration by phone so that they can decide whether or not you should be instructed to go to a manned crossing to complete the formalities.

https://www.google.com/maps/@67.311...KOJwKkibozxYNLmo4g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

This is a curious example from the S/FIN border - the crossing is obviously abandoned since 1995, yet the sign warning you of the Customs line is still there. The other signs instructing you to make a declaration (which seem to be a standard Nordic thing...) have been removed at that location, however.

Another example here - https://www.google.com/maps/@66.800...vLLJZJPpEnZX7jYlpQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 - one of the signs is still intact, even though the crossing is clearly mostly abandoned.

Where this crossing gets really strange is that the traffic signals appear to be still in use - you can see the green lights are still switched on, and this rotating sign doesn't appear to be that old. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@66.800...ZO6QPK4wS-Zcb0uw9g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

I wonder if random controls still happen here using the infrastructure?


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> It's not my problem, since I actually did find this out in advance (and chose my route accordingly). But it might be someone else's.
> 
> I agree on the first part, but not the second. Yes, anyone operating a transport business should know that goods imported to Norway must be declared - but not necessarily where. That's what signs are for. If the customs is not at the border, it is not too much to ask for a sign at least telling where it is.
> 
> FIN-N border is better; for instance when leaving E6 towards Polmak/Nuorgam there is a sign telling the opening hours for the customs post.
> 
> Also, not everyone is a professional. There may even be tourists who have stuff in excess. Theoretically, there may even be Swedes driving around for fun and not knowing that Röros is in Norway, when spelled with a Swedish ö. It's not that unusual over the world to put up signs when you're about to exit a country. Especially when crossing the border would break a law.


I would leave some responsibility to the individuals, too.

For example, there is a customs line inside Finland: The regional border of Ahvenanmaa and the mainland Finland. On the roads Hummelvik-Kustavi and Hummelvik-Korppoo, there are absolutely no indication on this border, and no customs offices. Still, if you have something to declare, you must find out how to manage.

Only a few customs offices at the Swedish/Norwegian border are open 24h. It is because they are not any more for random tourists but mainly for professional transport.

The basic idea of Schengen is simple: Crossing the borders is easy, but anyone crossing the borders must know the rules.


----------



## Eulanthe

MattiG said:


> For example, there is a customs line inside Finland: The regional border of Ahvenanmaa and the mainland Finland. On the roads Hummelvik-Kustavi and Hummelvik-Korppoo, there are absolutely no indication on this border, and no customs offices. Still, if you have something to declare, you must find out how to manage.


From memory, isn't the Aland-Finland Customs border effectively meaningless because the VAT rate in Aland is identical to the mainland Finland one? So - as a result - there's no need to have customs offices on those roads as you can't buy the goods VAT-free anyway? I don't know where the border is between mainland Finland and Aland, but if it's always a maritime border, I assume the ferries simply don't bother to sell VAT-free goods on those roads?

There are VAT-free sales between Aland and Finland on the ferries, but you're required to make a declaration in the ports aren't you?

edit : just checked, and Alandstrafiken don't do VAT-free sales on their ferries. I assume that means that there's no need to make a declaration on the border between Aland and mainland Finland when using Alandstrafiken.

Is there any difference between Aland/mainland Finland when it comes to fuel taxes for instance?

edit2 : I was curious, so I tried to find some more information on the subject. It seems that Matti is correct - there's no sign of any customs stations between Finland/Aland, and the ordinary tourist would never know that he needs to declare imports from Aland. But how on earth can someone do so if there are no facilities for doing so? It's a very strange state of affairs. The only thing I can think of is that Aland has the same taxation as mainland Finland, so Finland isn't bothered by people buying stuff there and then importing it into Finland (as long as it's not on the sea/air routes).

edit3 : Found out how it works in practice. The Finnish customs authorities have set up a system in which you submit the documents either online before transporting goods, or you submit them in Mariehamn, Langnas, at Mariehamn airport or on the Aland ferries that cross the fiscal border to mainland Finland. There's a simplified control between Aland and the Finnish mainland, so bureaucracy is effectively minimal and hence no need for customs posts. In addition, the Finnish tax authorities collect the same taxes on Aland as in the Finnish mainland, so there's no real need for any customs posts except in the harbours (to deal with duty free sales on the ferries).


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## Kanadzie

^^ Yes, however if you enter the US by car (or in any way really), the border patrol can search your car and your person fully and completely on a whim 
http://www.cbp.gov/travel/cbp-search-authority


----------



## verreme

John Maynard said:


> 1) What is this legal basis?
> 
> 2) Legal article, stating that undocumented deep searches by police officers in EU are permitted, please.
> 
> So basically, police officers can turn upside down all your vehicle and dismount it without any legal grounds; but the same officers let pass totally unlawfully millions of illegal migrants inside EU without even looking at them nor their belongings. *That's a totally incredible situation and lack of all consistency!
> *
> The most hilarious in all this: asleep Europeans think that they are leading in respecting one's individual rights and "rule of law", while in fact they are in the bottom :toilet:.


It seems to me that you're constantly trying to derail this thread (again) into the nonsensical pile of racist/refugee bashing it has fallen so many times.

I don't want it to be closed (again), so why don't we just stick to pictures of border crossings and discussions on geographical oddities? There are plenty of other places to discuss the stuff you're bringing out again and again.


----------



## John Maynard

Firstly, my post stick with the subject of this thread - International border crossings / Highways and Autobahns. 
Secondly, that's simply facts that I'm relaying, based on current situation in EU-Schengen border crossings - border controls carrying out by ordinary police officers - and it's legitimate to ask questions about the legality of such procedures.
Thirdly, I lived it personally and thousands of people in this situation did the same. Also, anyone can be affected by this, now and in the future. So, it's more than actual subject.
Finally, have you problems with reality, or are you completely stubborn, to declare this "nonsensical pile of racist/refugee bashing"?


----------



## John Maynard

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ Yes, however if you enter the US by car (or in any way really), the border patrol can search your car and your person fully and completely on a whim
> http://www.cbp.gov/travel/cbp-search-authority


^^ True, but intra EU-Schengen borders are more similar to inter-state boundaries, than to USA-Mexico or even USA-Canada frontier. There are no "border" controls between states. Also, it exists inland border controls within 100-miles of the international borders, but then a border patrol officer (customs) need probable cause to search your car and your person.


----------



## Eulanthe

Bijaca is finally opened properly? They took their time - it was already functional from 07/13! 

More to the point, why is BiH differentiating between EU and non-EU traffic on their border crossing? It's a BiH only crossing (not joint), but it seems to be insane to have so many lanes for EU traffic and only one for non-EU traffic. But well, when I was there - only one lane was open anyway, and traffic was minimal.


----------



## Verso

So only one lane for Bosnians?


----------



## Alex_ZR

Little history: Yugoslav military border guard by the border stone of socialist Yugoslavia.


----------



## mirza-sm

You have no idea, we are gearing up to join Schengen! 

Cant those signs be changed btw as per the need?


----------



## Verso

mirza-sm said:


> You have no idea, we are gearing up to join Schengen!


What Schengen, Meerz? Does that still exist?


----------



## John Maynard

^^ And that's quite confusing. Between the countries that have "officially" suspended Schengen (like i.e. Germany and Austria), others that "say so", we don't know where we are standing on an for how long. And for those states that have suspend it: what are the limits of intra-Schengen "border controls", is it permissible to do checks just like external EU/Schengen borders and without any motive nor reasonable grounds on ID identified European people?

Regrettably, I am quite offended to see how a truthful control of illegal migrants can be transformed as a pretext to check everything that is not even closely related to it - such as described in my previous post :wallbash:.

As I see it, the European Union and Schengen agreements is just a big joke that is not even taken seriously by the "coward" rulers and legislators of EU.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ the crisis is a temporary issue that will last forever

the dream of open borders is sadly dead


----------



## Eulanthe

mirza-sm said:


> Cant those signs be changed btw as per the need?


They can, but I've never seen anywhere actually change them. 

I still can't figure out why they built two separate huge border crossings there when the EU encourages the development of one large crossing. There's really no need in today's Europe to have two separate facilities, especially for car/bus traffic.

As for the question about about reinstated border checks - if Schengen is officially suspended by a country, then they're free to apply full and complete controls at the border just as if it was an external Schengen border.

Still, no country has totally suspended Schengen yet.


----------



## Attus

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ the crisis is a temporary issue that will last forever
> 
> the dream of open borders is sadly dead


I don't think so. Two nations (Germany and Sweden) caused the issue. The Swedish government has already changed its mind and most probably the German one, too, will do it (either the government changes its mind, or the mind changes its government). 
And if border control will be restored at the external borders (with or without Greece), the internal borders can be opened again.


----------



## geogregor

John Maynard said:


> ^^ True, but intra EU-Schengen borders are more similar to inter-state boundaries, than to USA-Mexico or even USA-Canada frontier. There are no "border" controls between states. Also, it exists inland border controls within 100-miles of the international borders, but then a border patrol officer (customs) need probable cause to search your car and your person.


EU is not a singular state and probably never will be (especially considering the recent developments).

Comparisons to the US are only partly valid.


----------



## John Maynard

geogregor said:


> EU is not a singular state and probably never will be (especially considering the recent developments).
> 
> Comparisons to the US are only partly valid.


And who's fault? EU and its dream has shot itself in the foot - by totally anti-democratically and lawlessly widely opening its borders to all illegal non-European immigrants. 
For instance, that's like if Americans would open their borders to all illegal Mexicans and the whole world, and imposing quotas and punishments to each State without even asking them after that. This would never happen there, since there would be another "secession" if it ever occur.



Attus said:


> I don't think so. Two nations (Germany and Sweden) caused the issue. The Swedish government has already changed its mind and most probably the German one, too, will do it (either the government changes its mind, or the mind changes its government).
> And if border control will be restored at the external borders (with or without Greece), the internal borders can be opened again.


^^ These nations are the main responsible for all this mess. But most of all, this situation has shown us how huge is lack of coordination and means when it comes to protect external EU-Schengen borders, and by extension Europe and its citizens. There is also a huge lack of solidarity in Europe too, as the only reasonable and law-caring country in this matter Hungary was being attacked and insulted from all sides, despite of being encouraged for, in fact, bringing the most sensitive and functional solutions of all; that I am sure would definitely preserve - if followed by others - Schengen borders.



Eulanthe said:


> As for the question about about reinstated border checks - if Schengen is officially suspended by a country, then they're free to apply full and complete controls at the border just as if it was an external Schengen border.
> 
> Still, no country has totally suspended Schengen yet.


What are the purpose of these controls? Because, I thought that was to stop and discourage illegal migrants, not to romp on law-abiding tax-paying citizens :bash:.

Actually, all the countries that has created this mess, or who supported it because of their inaction and encouragement to illegality, are now punishing their citizens at double recovery: first imposing them "hordes" of illegals not culturally compatible welfare migrants, and now by harassing its own citizens, totally unnecessarily and without any logical reason at all, inside the very Schengen area. I wouldn't had any problem at all, if the goal of these controls were IDs checks, but it is only used as a pretext to harry European citizens, and still more than 5'000 illegals are trespassing into Germany every day. Wait and see: as soon as the influx will rise again when weather will be warmer, it will show how ridiculous and totally inefficient these "controls" are :lol:.


----------



## John Maynard

And please, answer to my question concerning legality of conducting customs border controls inside Schengen area by ordinary police officers.


----------



## italystf

^^Germany is doing a huge mistake in accepting a such amounts of asylum seekers without providing them a safe a legal route from where they originate (usually Turkey) to Germany.
If Germany wants to give asylum to war refugees, it should provide air transport to carry them between Turkey\Greece and Germany, without impacting all countries crossed by the overland route. Otherwise, Germany encourages an illegal activity abroad (crossing non-Schengen borders with no proper documents is illegal for anyone).
Thousands of people are causing huge public order problems in many south-east Europe countries, that are neither the origin, neither the final destintion of those migrants. Those countries, that often have serious internal problems too (especially Greece and Macedonia), have to spend huge amounts of money to deal with that issue (more police patrol, refuge shelters,...). Moreover, people living along the migrant route are directly affected too (less safety, more decay, longer times to cross borders, that's hard to imagine an important border crossing like Horgos shut down for weeks or the disruption of the Vienna-Budapest train due to a war 4,000km away, but that happened...).
In the 70s, 80s and 90s most gestarbeiter living in Germany were Turks, Greeks and Yugoslavs with proper permission to stay. They travelled crossing borders legally. Then, the gestarbeiter flow from\to Germany was responsible of huge traffic jams and many accidents in Austria and Yugoslavia (that had few motorways). However that was nothing compared to this mess today.


----------



## geogregor

John Maynard said:


> And who's fault?


Nobody's. It is just a fact.


----------



## Eulanthe

John Maynard said:


> And please, answer to my question concerning legality of conducting customs border controls inside Schengen area by ordinary police officers.


I can only talk for CH, but from memory, the law was changed there post-Schengen to enable Customs controls anywhere in Switzerland.

There's a good article by the Swiss Customs about it here - http://www.ezv.admin.ch/themen/04097/index.html?lang=en


----------



## piotr71

*Croatia/Bosnia&Hercegovina*

Can anybody cross this border here or it's for local community only? I presume it is, but I am wondering how it actually works?
And this one?


----------



## Verso

Penn's Woods said:


> The British, Dutch and German Protestants who made up the bulk of the U.S. population in 1840 actually had - well, many of them had - considerable unease for religious reasons about the sudden influx of Catholics. Because there was animosity about Catholicism going back to the Reformation. Add to that that so many of these people were from southern and eastern Europe so they talked and dressed "funny"; they were poor; they were coming in in such large numbers...
> 
> These populations did assimilate and eventually get along, but it took a century or so. (John Kennedy's Catholicism was an issue in the 1960 Presidential campaign. My father, born in 1924, could remember help-wanted ads from the 40s reading "WASP only." Now, of course, that's illegal.) There were anti-Catholic riots in Philadelphia during the 1840s, and a nativist political party (officially called the American Party, commonly known as the Know-Nothings) in the 1850s. One historian I read said that for a brief time in the 1850s it looked like immigration might become a more important political issue than slavery. But for whatever reason, that didn't happen.
> 
> An American from 1840 who traveled forward in time to, say, the late 20th century, might feel that the immigrants had actually "won." The WASP America he was used to had melted into a larger, more cosmopolitan population with a lot of elements he would have considered alien.
> 
> As a Polish-American whose ancestors mostly came over around 1900, I'm not complaining about this, obviously. Just pointing out that it wasn't as easy as you seem to think.


Let's ship all Muslim "refugees" to USA then.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Speaking personally, I'm happy for us to accept our share.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/05/17/the-religious-affiliation-of-us-immigrants/#muslim

But perhaps we can go back to talking about borders.


----------



## geogregor

Is this thread still about border crossings or is it becoming yet another general ranting area?

Do we have any moderator?


----------



## John Maynard

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Speaking personally, I'm happy for us to accept our share.
> 
> http://www.pewforum.org/2013/05/17/the-religious-affiliation-of-us-immigrants/#muslim
> 
> But perhaps we can go back to talking about borders.


Well, you "accept share" in 20 years of the same amount of newcomer Muslims *Europe took solely last year* :lol:.









At the Austrian border.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Ignoring you.

Borders.


----------



## Eulanthe

piotr71 said:


> Can anybody cross this border here or it's for local community only? I presume it is, but I am wondering how it actually works?
> And this one?


To bring the topic back to borders and away from Muslims... 

As far as I know, both of those crossings are only able to be crossed upon special application to either the Croatian or Bosnian border police. They're not for locals (locals-only border crossings still have infrastructure) - though before 2013, they were used by locals freely. They might even be blocked up now - Croatia before joining the EU went around closing up a lot of these crossings, so I'd be surprised if you could still drive through.

It's one of the worst things on the HR/BiH border - there are huge gaps between crossings, and locals are poor by the standards of their countries.


----------



## CSerpent

Eulanthe said:


> To bring the topic back to borders and away from Muslims...
> 
> As far as I know, both of those crossings are only able to be crossed upon special application to either the Croatian or Bosnian border police. They're not for locals (locals-only border crossings still have infrastructure) - though before 2013, they were used by locals freely. They might even be blocked up now - Croatia before joining the EU went around closing up a lot of these crossings, so I'd be surprised if you could still drive through.
> 
> It's one of the worst things on the HR/BiH border - there are huge gaps between crossings, and locals are poor by the standards of their countries.


The latter looks to have previously had border infrastructure now removed?


----------



## stickedy

CSerpent said:


> The latter looks to have previously had border infrastructure now removed?


This could have been some checkpoint place back in the 90ies, not a real border crossing.

But Streetview pictures are rather old, back from 2011.


----------



## Eulanthe

CSerpent said:


> The latter looks to have previously had border infrastructure now removed?


It's possible that it was UN infrastructure, not Croatian. There's quite a few places along the border where you can see similar ruins - Zeljava is the most obvious one I can think of, but there are other places too. 

There's a news article about that crossing here in the local language : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFxkbMl5Fw4&feature=player_embedded

Or yes, it could have been an old guard hut. Croatia (from what I can tell, please correct me if I'm wrong) used to have quite a lot of guard huts in villages/towns on the border, but most of them have been abandoned. I've seen those huts in Metkovic and in Bregana, so it might have been the same here.

Can't be certain, but it looks like there's a large barrier on the road at the border : https://www.google.hr/maps/@43.2866792,17.3239703,197m/data=!3m1!1e3


----------



## CSerpent

If it was, then that village to the left would seem to be some little Croatian exclave as the road only has throughway to BIH both directions. Maybe it's just a demarcation line?


----------



## stickedy

The border line on Google Maps is just wrong! Look at openstreetmap.org for the correct one: http://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=mijaca#map=15/43.2887/17.3252


----------



## NordikNerd

*Massive queue at the danish/german border*

The Winter holiday traffic and the recently introduced border controls have created massive queues at the Danish-German border. According to Local TV station TV-SYD drivers had an extra driving time for up to 45 minutes.

The South Jutland Police, confirms the congestions:
- There is still a queue and we are busy. It is homebound traffic after the winter holidays, says police commissioner Anders Hansen.
- Now we have this border control and we are back in the old days. And that means that there is a queue at the border, he explains.
8 kilometers of queue
According to the police, there has been 8km queue into Germany.
- But we've opened some more lanes, so hopefully we can speed up the traffic flow, says Anders Hansen.


----------



## Verso

^^ 45 minutes is not exactly a _massive_ queue.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ It's pretty horrible considering it seems to be an artificial creation due to the border guards only


----------



## Eulanthe

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ It's pretty horrible considering it seems to be an artificial creation due to the border guards only


From an infrastructure point of view, the problem there is that the old infrastructure was removed a few years ago. It wouldn't be so bad if the old border crossing was still there, but because it isn't, they have to make the most of what is already there - which isn't much, just a rest area and two lanes on the motorway.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> ^^ 45 minutes is not exactly a _massive_ queue.


It is if you're used to 0 minutes delay :lol:


----------



## Verso

^^ Maybe Danes, but not Germans. 



Eulanthe said:


> From an infrastructure point of view, the problem there is that the old infrastructure was removed a few years ago. It wouldn't be so bad if the old border crossing was still there, but because it isn't, they have to make the most of what is already there - which isn't much, just a rest area and two lanes on the motorway.


That's how it was done on the Slovenian side of the motorway border crossing Pince/Tornyiszentmiklós with Hungary (A5-M70). They diverted traffic through the rest area Pince. Hungarians also have an unused rest area on their side.


----------



## Verso

Border between Croatia and Hungary. :runaway:









http://www.rtvslo.si/begunska-kriza/madzarska-bo-za-30-dni-zaprla-zelezniske-mejne-prehode-s-hrvasko/386249


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## Eulanthe

Verso, has Slovenia built any fences?


----------



## Gyorgy

Verso said:


> Border between Croatia and Hungary. :runaway:


Oh our media, it's an old photo prom SRB-H border near Horgos.


----------



## Verso

^^ You're right. :bash:



Eulanthe said:


> Verso, has Slovenia built any fences?


Yes, more than 100 km on the Croatian border (or barbed wire).


----------



## OulaL

NordikNerd said:


> According to the police, there has been 8km queue into Germany.


8 km means that it already goes past Flensburg-Harrislee interchange; a little more and it will reach Flensburg southern. It might be tempting to some drivers to exit the motorway and take B200 to Danish 170 instead.

But what is the situation over there?


----------



## vespafrederic

Verso said:


> ^^ You're right. :bash:
> 
> Yes, more than 100 km on the Croatian border (or barbed wire).


Slovenia bought the wires from Hungary....


----------



## gbrads1980

*Man tries to cross Gibraltar border in stolen Guardia Civil vehicle.*

Most of you will have probably already seen this video, it shows a polish man trying to cross the border into Gibraltar in a stolen Guardia Civil vehicle.






It got me thinking, the Gib government admitted that there was no equipment at the border to stop a car that didn't want to stop voluntarily, and there have been a couple of incidents previous to this, most recently when a local man who was wanted in Spain floored it when the Policia asked to see his passport.

What do other borders do to prevent people from not stopping, from what I can see not many borders have physical barriers etc.


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## cinxxx

^^I think I saw somewhere at a Russian border spikes in the ground.
When the barrier was lifted, the spikes went down and the care could pass without damage...


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## OulaL

cinxxx said:


> ^^I think I saw somewhere at a Russian border spikes in the ground.
> When the barrier was lifted, the spikes went down and the care could pass without damage...


A manual solution when approaching Finland (note, not the actual border itself). The officer may, if needed, unroll the spikes in a matter of seconds.

https://www.google.fi/maps/@60.6073...4!1sDcMqKa2CywHQvsj9p8EOUg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## bogdymol

At all borders I've crossed (in Eastern Europe, Romania, Hungary, Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Slovakia) there was only a barrier like you find when entering parking lots (plastic, that you can easily break). On almost all the barrier stayed up all the time when that specific lane was open for traffic (you stopped to show your documents because the Police was there and you didn't want trouble, but not because you couldn't drive away).

I remember few months ago when the first motorway crossing opened between Romania and Hungary. First times when I passed that one, they lifted the barrier up and down after each vehicle. Now it stays up all the time.


----------



## alserrod

I posted in a Spanish thread... not as a border but as a really silly person. 
Press release talked about he had some head problems.... and in fact, he stole an official police vehicle and tried to cross a border with it. Clearly, in the passport control he was caught.


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> A manual solution when approaching Finland (note, not the actual border itself). The officer may, if needed, unroll the spikes in a matter of seconds.
> 
> https://www.google.fi/maps/@60.6073...4!1sDcMqKa2CywHQvsj9p8EOUg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Any clue what is the purpose of that control point? It is located several kilometers off the border station.


----------



## Verso

Greece-Macedonia:









http://www.rtvslo.si/begunska-kriza/grcija-zacela-umikati-prebeznike-z-makedonske-meje/386509


----------



## Penn's Woods

gbrads1980 said:


> Most of you will have probably already seen this video, it shows a polish man trying to cross the border into Gibraltar in a stolen Guardia Civil vehicle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It got me thinking, the Gib government admitted that there was no equipment at the border to stop a car that didn't want to stop voluntarily, and there have been a couple of incidents previous to this, most recently when a local man who was wanted in Spain floored it when the Policia asked to see his passport.
> 
> What do other borders do to prevent people from not stopping, from what I can see not many borders have physical barriers etc.


Perhaps it's our old friend Road_UK!


----------



## OulaL

MattiG said:


> Any clue what is the purpose of that control point? It is located several kilometers off the border station.


This is the outer limit of the border zone. A person entering the border zone must either have a special permit in doing so (permit is given to those living or doing business on the border zone, and to others under consideration), or be entitled to cross the actual border (= have a Schengen visa, be a Schengen citizen or a citizen of a country with visa free arrangement with Schengen).

In other words: Russia has been doing border control for Finland (and Schengen) all the time, and as you've probably heard from the news, our politicians are afraid of the fact that it might actually stop doing it, leaving our own dirty work to us.

Furthermore, a person entering or exiting Russia without a border zone permit must take the shortest possible route to or from the border station and not stop en route, not even for petrol. How strictly this rule is enforced depends more or less on the current political situation.


----------



## 54°26′S 3°24′E

NordikNerd said:


> The Winter holiday traffic and the recently introduced border controls have created massive queues at the Danish-German border. According to Local TV station TV-SYD drivers had an extra driving time for up to 45 minutes.
> 
> The South Jutland Police, confirms the congestions:
> - There is still a queue and we are busy. It is homebound traffic after the winter holidays, says police commissioner Anders Hansen.
> - Now we have this border control and we are back in the old days. And that means that there is a queue at the border, he explains.
> 8 kilometers of queue
> According to the police, there has been 8km queue into Germany.
> - But we've opened some more lanes, so hopefully we can speed up the traffic flow, says Anders Hansen.


^^
"Winter" holiday ;-)

[ot] 
10 hour delay winter holiday queue Norwegian style, completely not due to border control.... 








[\ot]


----------



## Eulanthe

OulaL said:


> Furthermore, a person entering or exiting Russia without a border zone permit must take the shortest possible route to or from the border station and not stop en route, not even for petrol. How strictly this rule is enforced depends more or less on the current political situation.


I wonder - was the same rule in place on other borders where the border station wasn't directly on the border line in Europe?

I'm thinking about the A/SK border crossing in Kittsee - the SK border station was quite a long way away from the borderline, and the A border station was a good few hundred metres away. There was another one on the PL/SK border where the border station was about 2km away from the border line. 

I think one used to exist on the PL/UA border at Kroscienko too - the UA border used to be located quite far away before the new joint crossing opened at Kroscienko.

(I know on the SLO/HR borders, they couldn't have cared less before Croatia joined the EU if you stopped between the borders.)


----------



## OulaL

Eulanthe said:


> I wonder - was the same rule in place on other borders where the border station wasn't directly on the border line in Europe?


No.

The place linked above is not a border station, it is just a place controlling the access to the border zone. The whole concept of "border zone" is unknown to many European countries. Finland has one against Russia at max 3 km (it has gaps on actual border crossing points, though, so there is no need to stop twice on Finnish side), however Russia has one on all its border and it can be over 10 km. Not only is crossing the border controlled, but also approaching the border. The border zone covers some rather large settlements, some reaching a thousand inhabitants.

There is an actual border station immediately next to the border for all the administrative stuff as any other non-Schengen border station in Europe, but there is no Google Street view data there, since photographing is forbidden.


----------



## piotr71

There is similar, couple of times discussed in this thread,"item" in Lithuania, near border with Belarus.


----------



## Corvinus

Verso said:


> Greece-Macedonia:


That "OPEN BORDER" transparent, so hilarious :lol:
At the Röszke crossing, they were at least a little bit more creative: mini poem "No food, no water - until open this border", as well as ultimatums to the police.


----------



## Eulanthe

OulaL said:


> No.
> 
> The place linked above is not a border station, it is just a place controlling the access to the border zone. The whole concept of "border zone" is unknown to many European countries. Finland has one against Russia at max 3 km (it has gaps on actual border crossing points, though, so there is no need to stop twice on Finnish side), however Russia has one on all its border and it can be over 10 km. Not only is crossing the border controlled, but also approaching the border. The border zone covers some rather large settlements, some reaching a thousand inhabitants.


No no, what I meant - is there anywhere else where such a 'no stopping' rule is enforced? Speaking of Russia - do these exist on all the approaches to the border, or just some areas? I know they have many closed areas. There's a good example here (this checkpoint isn't functioning anymore, as far as I know) - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.7...UVciRWWr2xxAXL908w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

Isn't the European idea of a border zone rather marked by signs and not physical control points? I'm thinking of Finland and Lithuania - they have signs, but no permanent control as such.

Bosnia apparently has a 100m border zone, but I've never even seen any police patrolling their border, yet alone any threats of punishments. Croatian police on the other hand always seem to turn up when I'm loitering around the border on their side of the BiH border.


----------



## OulaL

Eulanthe said:


> No no, what I meant - is there anywhere else where such a 'no stopping' rule is enforced?


Speaking of borders, I don't know. However there are some "no stopping areas" on roads passing by military areas.



Eulanthe said:


> Speaking of Russia - do these exist on all the approaches to the border


As far as I know, yes.



Eulanthe said:


> There's a good example here (this checkpoint isn't functioning anymore, as far as I know) - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.7...UVciRWWr2xxAXL908w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1


That seems to be quite far from the border even by Russian standards. Maybe there is or has been a naval base or something at the end of that peninsula.



Eulanthe said:


> Isn't the European idea of a border zone rather marked by signs and not physical control points? I'm thinking of Finland and Lithuania - they have signs, but no permanent control as such.


At least in Finland the border zone is marked very clearly with info boards, yellow warning signposts and yellow ribbons in trees (or yellow buoys when in water). Info boards telling the rules are used at least once on all public roads (and many private roads) leading to the border zone, and warning signposts and ribbons are used densely between them. On any sign/ribbon/buoy one should be able to see several more in each direction, so it should be easy to follow the outer limit of the zone. Trespassers shouldn't really be able to claim ignorance. There are no permanently manned control posts, but there are hidden cameras and if needed, the guards will be on site in a matter of minutes.

As already said, unlike in Russia, on the Finnish side the border zone has gaps on border crossings, so border crossing traffic doesn't need to stop twice.


----------



## jcg96

Verso said:


> ^^ 45 minutes is not exactly a _massive_ queue.


You can spend five hours at the Tijuana/San Diego border crossing at holidays.


----------



## moderntm

Kazakhstan-Turkmenistan


----------



## Verso

^^ When did China annex Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan?


----------



## John Maynard

^^ Very interesting, but I shall remind you that this thread is about "_Highways & Autobahns - International border crossings_" - so unless it's concerning directly road mobility and users, I would ask you guys otherwise to post in another thread - and there is a large forum all about rail and trains on SSC .

I'm very surprised that some _geogregor_ or other _verreme_ aren't here to remind you for that - although, apparently they do this only on purpose and solely for some users of this forum, even when they stick to the subject of the thread hno:.


----------



## Tachi

jcg96 said:


> You can spend five hours at the Tijuana/San Diego border crossing at holidays.



I've spent in the past similar time or even more at Ipsala/Kipi, Pazarkule/Kastanies (TR/GR) because of malfunctioning Turkish computers and Greek officers on strike. 
Both directions Kapitan Andreevo/Kapikule (BG/TR). 
Entering fortress Europe via Horgos/Röszke (SRB/H) is always troublesome.
A lot of traffic diverted to Klingenbach/Sopron (A/H) during the Yugoslav war because Spielfeld/Sentilj (A/now SLO then YU) was blocked by Yugoslav army tanks. 
Arrived at midnight at Negotin/Bregovo (YU/BG) and entered Bulgaria late in the morning.
Vidin/Calafat (BG/RO) ferry before the bridge was built. At night the ferries did not (fully) operate. Drank two bottles of Zagorka beer to kill time. 
Spent the night at Battonya/Turnu (H/RO) because of limited opening hours then.

So 45 minutes is really peanuts.


----------



## Eulanthe

Tachi said:


> A lot of traffic diverted to Klingenbach/Sopron (A/H) during the Yugoslav war because Spielfeld/Sentilj (A/now SLO then YU) was blocked by Yugoslav army tanks.


Just a point : I'm not sure Sentilj was actually ever under the control of the Yugoslav Army once Slovenia took over the border crossing. From what I remember, the JNA was ambushed near Pesnica and then a second attempt to reach Sentilj also ended in failure. Meanwhile, the JNA troops at the border stayed in their barracks or abandoned them, I don't remember which.

I think there were attacks from the air, but not much else. 

Verso will know, where are you? 

But yes, traffic diverted away from the Yugoslav border crossings because the JNA aim was to retake them, so they were dangerous places to be. But from what I remember seeing and watching, Slovenia and Austria never closed the borders, it just wasn't particularly wise to be there.

There's quite a few pictures here of border crossings during the Ten-Day War - http://www.red-alliance.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=b82a0a696beb539715a3ce298d02b078&topic=24417.0

I read one absurd account somewhere of how a British guy turned up on one of the border crossings during the war with a car full of goods. He was obviously way over the duty-free allowances, but when the Customs guy tried to charge him/fine him for it, he asked him under which law. The guy told him "blah blah law federal taxation blah blah" - to which, the British guy responded - "but, didn't you declare independence?". 

The Customs guy to his credit apparently smiled and wished him a pleasant trip as they obviously had no laws of their own about the matter. Obviously the Yugoslav law was still valid, but given the circumstances...

edit : what's this "toll coupon" at the border crossing?


----------



## geogregor

John Maynard said:


> ^^ Very interesting, but I shall remind you that this thread is about "_Highways & Autobahns - International border crossings_" - so unless it's concerning directly road mobility and users, I would ask you guys otherwise to post in another thread - and there is a large forum all about rail and trains on SSC .
> 
> I'm very surprised that some _geogregor_ or other _verreme_ aren't here to remind you for that - although, apparently they do this only on purpose and solely for some users of this forum, even when they stick to the subject of the thread hno:.


Good point. Thanks for raising it.

I can't keep up with monitoring this thread, unfortunately I have life outside the internet


----------



## geogregor

John Maynard said:


> ^^ Very interesting, but I shall remind you that this thread is about "_Highways & Autobahns - International border crossings_" - so unless it's concerning directly road mobility and users, I would ask you guys otherwise to post in another thread - and there is a large forum all about rail and trains on SSC .
> 
> I'm very surprised that some _geogregor_ or other _verreme_ aren't here to remind you for that - although, apparently they do this only on purpose and solely for some users of this forum, even when they stick to the subject of the thread hno:.


Good point. Thanks for raising it.

I can't keep up with monitoring this thread, unfortunately I have life outside the internet 

But, fortunately, one can always rely on people holding a grudge :banana:


----------



## italystf

Eulanthe said:


> Just a point : I'm not sure Sentilj was actually ever under the control of the Yugoslav Army once Slovenia took over the border crossing. From what I remember, the JNA was ambushed near Pesnica and then a second attempt to reach Sentilj also ended in failure. Meanwhile, the JNA troops at the border stayed in their barracks or abandoned them, I don't remember which.
> 
> I think there were attacks from the air, but not much else.
> 
> Verso will know, where are you?
> 
> But yes, traffic diverted away from the Yugoslav border crossings because the JNA aim was to retake them, so they were dangerous places to be. But from what I remember seeing and watching, Slovenia and Austria never closed the borders, it just wasn't particularly wise to be there.
> 
> There's quite a few pictures here of border crossings during the Ten-Day War - http://www.red-alliance.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=b82a0a696beb539715a3ce298d02b078&topic=24417.0
> 
> I read one absurd account somewhere of how a British guy turned up on one of the border crossings during the war with a car full of goods. He was obviously way over the duty-free allowances, but when the Customs guy tried to charge him/fine him for it, he asked him under which law. The guy told him "blah blah law federal taxation blah blah" - to which, the British guy responded - "but, didn't you declare independence?".
> 
> The Customs guy to his credit apparently smiled and wished him a pleasant trip as they obviously had no laws of their own about the matter. Obviously the Yugoslav law was still valid, but given the circumstances...
> 
> edit : what's this "toll coupon" at the border crossing?


During the ten-days war there have been armed fightings near the Italian border (at Sezana and Rozna Dolina\Nova Gorica) and near the Austrian border (the Karavanken tunnel, that opened few weeks before, was closed).
In the previous pages of this thread there are pics of soldiers replacing the "SFR Jugoslavija" entry sign with "Republika Slovenija", at border crossings with Italy.

The pic you shows refers to a border crossing with Italy. I can't figure which one, but looking at the terrain, it looks like near Trieste. Certainly it's not in the Alps.

In Yugoslavia there were few tolled motorways, but none reached the Italian border. I don't know what the "toll coupon" refers to.


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> Verso will know, where are you?


Sleeping between 2:15 and 2:49 AM.  The war lasted only ten days, so the border crossing couldn't've been blocked for long.



Eulanthe said:


> edit : what's this "toll coupon" at the border crossing?


No idea.



italystf said:


> In Yugoslavia there were few tolled motorways, but none reached the Italian border.


There was a 0.5-km-long motorway to Italy by Nova Gorica.


----------



## Usman ali

*Khunjerab Pass,Border crossing between China & Pakistan*


JADI said:


> Thats the Limit by Warrraichzada, on Flickr
> Worlds highest border crossing at altitude 4.733 m, Khunjerab Pass, Pakistan-China Border


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


>


Koper in both directions?


----------



## MrAkumana

Tachi said:


> I've spent in the past similar time or even more at Ipsala/Kipi, Pazarkule/Kastanies (TR/GR) because of malfunctioning Turkish computers and Greek officers on strike.
> Both directions Kapitan Andreevo/Kapikule (BG/TR).
> Entering fortress Europe via Horgos/Röszke (SRB/H) is always troublesome.
> A lot of traffic diverted to Klingenbach/Sopron (A/H) during the Yugoslav war because Spielfeld/Sentilj (A/now SLO then YU) was blocked by Yugoslav army tanks.
> Arrived at midnight at Negotin/Bregovo (YU/BG) and entered Bulgaria late in the morning.
> Vidin/Calafat (BG/RO) ferry before the bridge was built. At night the ferries did not (fully) operate. Drank two bottles of Zagorka beer to kill time.
> Spent the night at Battonya/Turnu (H/RO) because of limited opening hours then.
> 
> So 45 minutes is really peanuts.


45 minutes is a lot when it should be 0 minutes, and when it was 0 minutes for years...

Moreover is silly, as I'm sure that it must be just like it is with France and its ongoing schengen suspension: a lot of police at motorways and zero control at 90% of the rest of the roads and city streets that cross their borders with Belgium, Spain, Luxemburg, Italy and Germany.


----------



## Eulanthe

Yes, I should have said that other border crossings did come under the control of the JNA. 

That toll coupon is a mystery. The only thing I can think of - the autoput between Belgrade and Subotica used to be notorious in Yugoslav times for blatant scams. For example, toll takers would offer to accept half the toll in foreign currency without a receipt. It's possible that you could pre-purchase the toll, meaning that the country would get the cash and not corrupt toll collectors.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Koper in both directions?


Right through an industrial zone, straight forward through Šempeter. :dunno:


----------



## CSerpent

I notice on this picture the old YU border speed info


----------



## John Maynard

geogregor said:


> Good point. Thanks for raising it.
> 
> I can't keep up with monitoring this thread, unfortunately I have life outside the internet
> 
> But, fortunately, one can always rely on people holding a grudge :banana:


So, he has a life outside SCC, that's very interesting...:weird: 

"Oh, and stop posting multiple post one under another one, use option of EDIT instead" :nono:.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## John Maynard

MrAkumana said:


> 45 minutes is a lot when it should be 0 minutes, and when it was 0 minutes for years...
> 
> Moreover is silly, as I'm sure that it must be just like it is with France and its ongoing schengen suspension: a lot of police at motorways and zero control at 90% of the rest of the roads and city streets that cross their borders with Belgium, Spain, Luxemburg, Italy and Germany.


Well, in Warsaw "natural border" Wisła had created tremendous traffic jams - up to 4 hours to go from one neighborhood to another, for sure #1 most jammed city in the world back then :nuts: - for months when main transit bridge burned thanks to wooden parts underneath that propagated fire :lol:.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ But nobody specifically said "burn the bridge" and did it
except maybe Germans :lol:


----------



## Verso

CSerpent said:


> I notice on this picture the old YU border speed info


That wasn't a standard sign though, it was this one (except with YU instead of SLO, and with different speed limits (this sign is now obsolete, so they should remove it instead of sticking new speed limits with different colors on it)).


----------



## Penn's Woods

John Maynard said:


> So, he has a life outside SCC, that's very interesting...:weird:
> 
> "Oh, and stop posting multiple post one under another one, use option of EDIT instead" :nono:.
> 
> 
> :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


opcorn:


----------



## pai nosso

*Portugal / Spain*

SCHENGEN LIVES!!!!


*Vila Nova de Cerveira [PT] / Goián [ESP] * »» See Location


*Friendship Bridge*

1-


2-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## Tachi

Eulanthe said:


> Just a point : I'm not sure Sentilj was actually ever under the control of the Yugoslav Army once Slovenia took over the border crossing. From what I remember, the JNA was ambushed near Pesnica and then a second attempt to reach Sentilj also ended in failure. Meanwhile, the JNA troops at the border stayed in their barracks or abandoned them, I don't remember which.
> 
> I think there were attacks from the air, but not much else.
> 
> Verso will know, where are you?
> 
> But yes, traffic diverted away from the Yugoslav border crossings because the JNA aim was to retake them, so they were dangerous places to be. But from what I remember seeing and watching, Slovenia and Austria never closed the borders, it just wasn't particularly wise to be there.


I vaguely remember news footage of Sentilj of around 30 June. Tanks or other armoured vehicles were present at the border complex. I think even one or more shots were fired. I also believe that trucks/trailers near the overpass for trucks were used to block the border or something.


----------



## alserrod

Not only the one, but a stadium quite near to a border.


----------



## Zagor666

Austria - Slovenija between Eibiswald and Radlje ob Dravi :cheers:


----------



## Palance

Speaking of the A-SLO-border. This is a strange one:
1. Looking towars Slovenia: It just looks like someone just crossed the border by car into SLO: https://www.google.nl/maps/@46.6518...03&h=100&yaw=22.627319&pitch=0!7i13312!8i6656

2. Looking towards Austria: The roads suddenly ends here and is hardly accessible by car. But still you can see the sign for approachting the Austrian border in the background.
https://www.google.nl/maps/@46.6518...03&h=100&yaw=22.627319&pitch=0!7i13312!8i6656

When I look in google maps or Open Streetmap, there does not seem to be any through road across the border anyway.


----------



## Eulanthe

Just been doing some research for an article, and a question comes to mind : does anyone know of any manned guardposts on European borders?

What I mean is something like this - https://www.google.com/maps/@45.842...03&h=100&yaw=331.72064&pitch=0!7i13312!8i6656 - this is the (now unmanned) guardpost on the SLO-HR border in Bregana. Or also this - https://www.google.com/maps/@45.842...4!1sCOdpV2XJzLAFzVJgvsZZFA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I'm looking for something comparable in Europe. The crucial thing is - it shouldn't be a legal border crossing, but rather a sort of point to prevent people from crossing the border. The other thing - it shouldn't be the Russian border zone as it's well known.

Does anything like this still exist?


----------



## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving from Badajoz (Spain) to Campo Maior (Portugal) 27.02.2016 Timelapse x4


----------



## DalliKK

*PL/SK Lysa Polana border crossing in mountain Tatras*


----------



## CNGL

Ale92Milano_SpA said:


> Driving from Badajoz (Spain) to Campo Maior (Portugal) 27.02.2016 Timelapse x4


A video that ends _before it starts_ is not a thing you get every day .


----------



## gorefest

pai nosso said:


> SCHENGEN LIVES!!!!
> 
> 
> *Vila Nova de Cerveira [PT] / Goián [ESP] * »» See Location
> 
> 
> *Friendship Bridge*


there are so many "Friendship Bridges" in this world .... Spain - Portugal , Paraguay -Brazil , Canada - USA .. even in my country there is one ... The one at Giurgiu linking Romania with Bulgaria over the Danube ..... my question is ... if there are many bridges that are called ".. of frendship" why isn't there any bridge that is called " the bridge of enmity" :lol:? just kidding ... there is one bridge that can be called like this hno:... one city , 2 enthities ... the bridge over the Ibar river , Kosovska Mitrovica .... on one side the albanians , on the other the serbs ... oficially it is not a border , but in real life is more than that ......
























Later on , the Serbs had seen that a baricade at the end of the bridge is not a pretty nice view so, instead they came with this ideea ... they named the place "Parc of peace"








.... although the Park of peace sounds nice and optimistic, a have a bitter taste when I'm writting this ... hno:


----------



## stickedy

Palance said:


> Speaking of the A-SLO-border. This is a strange one:
> 1. Looking towars Slovenia: It just looks like someone just crossed the border by car into SLO: https://www.google.nl/maps/@46.6518...03&h=100&yaw=22.627319&pitch=0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> 2. Looking towards Austria: The roads suddenly ends here and is hardly accessible by car. But still you can see the sign for approachting the Austrian border in the background.
> https://www.google.nl/maps/@46.6518...03&h=100&yaw=22.627319&pitch=0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> When I look in google maps or Open Streetmap, there does not seem to be any through road across the border anyway.


You can cross a border not only by car but also by bike or motorbike. And a "road" over the border can also be a unpaved path. Not a real problem. In OSM there's a path drawn. So I don't really geht the point.


----------



## Zagor666

DalliKK said:


>


It reminds me of something i read in a Marco Polo travel guide about crossing the border between Zimbabwe and South Africa :colgate:


----------



## aubergine72

gorefest said:


> The one at Giurgiu linking Romania with Bulgaria over the Danube .....


That one is not called Friendship bridge anymore. It was the name during communist times. At least in Bulgaria, this definitely isn't the name. It's called Dunav most 1 (Danube bridge 1) and the one at Vidin is Dunav most 2.


----------



## Verso

Welcme to Syrain Arab Republic!









http://www.panoramio.com/photo/77574152


----------



## rom1hod

*Lasauvage (Luxembourg)*

Some pictures from the small village of Lasauvage (South of Luxembourg) who have it cimetary on the french side.
Before 1980's, for each burrial, customs officiers sould be stay during the burrial.
Some pictures here : 
goo.gl/photos/YaTL23V6d3bKCU198

On maps : 
//goo.gl/maps/5hd3Rm4pppF2

put https:// before each link (it's my first post here and I can't post links actually...


----------



## alserrod

Hasn't booths Syria in the border?


----------



## Verso

^ Yes, before those signs.


----------



## Kanadzie

Verso said:


> Welcme to Syrain Arab Republic!
> 
> 
> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/77574152


I wonder if the signs will be replaced as politics are fluid...
something like "Islamic State wishes you violent and painful death!" (at least in English :lol


----------



## Innsertnamehere

Skagway, Alaska. A sleepy tourist town that is a common stop for cruise ships. It is only a few km from the Canadain border, and that border crossing is probably one of the crazier ones I've ever seen. Both the Canadian and American border facilities are over 12km from the border itself! As the two border facilities are 25km apart, it can take you close to a half hour to drive from the American border point to the Canadian one.

First, the context. The red line is the 25km distance between border control points, a sort of massive no mans land. Yellow is the actual border.










Now, the run down Canadian border. This location is so remote, the sun was setting on the Streetview car when it got there. This is actually quite common in northern Canadian streetview, the cars often keep driving well after sunset. It is also the only border control point I've ever seen where you can actually take streetview through it. You even see the border guard looking at the camera on top when you "pull in" to the security point. Interestingly, the security cameras seem to be pointed at the sky, not incoming traffic. Canadians clearly place high priority in ensuring cruise ship tourists stay within the US!










Next, the border itself. This is 12km from either security checkpoint, looking towards Canada. 










Finally, American border security. A much nicer building than Canada's, I must say. Note the far higher security set up, as if there are serious risks of smuggling large amounts of cocaine into a small town of less than 1,000 people. Again, this is 25km from the Canadian checkpoint. Crazy!


----------



## Kanadzie

those Yankee maniacs even put those x-ray machines_ up there_?!


----------



## Highway89

Border between Spain and France in Llívia, a Spanish exclave in France (and a Catalan town in Catalonia )








https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/32686203

Location: https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4532...4!1sAhxckq02k9dYFNbbjhuzoQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Llívia remained a part of the Habsburg dominions after the Treaty of the Pyrenees was signed between France and Spain in 1660.









In 1886, it was agreed that the road between Llívia and Puigcerdá could be used freely by the people of Llívia. However, in the 1970s, the French government built two roads which crossed it - and placed stop signs, thus forcing the people going from/to Llívia to stop for the traffic crossing the road. Note that, until 1995 (Schengen agreement), the road could only be used by vehicles with a Spanish license plate.

The inhabitants of Llívia started to remove the stop signs, and they kept on doing so every time the French authorities replaced them. Finally, in the 1980s, the Spanish government built an overpass for one of the roads, and the French authorities changed the priority in the other intersection.

This was called Guerra de los stops ("the war of the stop signs").


----------



## alserrod

More info about it...

There is an agreement for Llivia free-pass-through. No control can be done by the French side if you go to Llivia.

When the Spanish international isolation, Spanish police requested documentation to everyone and decided who could go away and who couldn't. Anyway, providing you weren't living in the area you were banned to approach the border (and obviously to cross it)

French police decide not to make any control because cars could go to Llivia and it as entirely pass free without control. If you were going to entry in France you had to go to customs and stamp passport after all kind of controls. If you were going to Llivia just ahead.

One km away there is a cross. Right of Left, France. Ahead, Spain again.

Should a Spanish plate car would turn right or left he will be stopped to check if he had been in the customs (and considered illegal inmigration in France). Should he go ahead, Spain again.


When traffic increased, French set stop signals and they were destroyed by population. They said they had free pass and that meant not to stop for anything, incluiding traffic (LOL!!!!). 
France decided to built a roundabout and problem solved: yield and that's all.


In addition, a huge territory of France as big as Llivia and besides it belongs to Llivia municipality. It is part of France, belonging to a Spanish town (just used for farms and so, there is no other use).


----------



## makaveli6

from local forum



Raptorzzs said:


> Reconstruction of border crossing point "Vientuļi" on Latvian-Russian border has been completed and it's already operational.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More


----------



## piotr71

*[D][NL] Brüggen/Swalmen*

Location

Woods in Germany.
DSC03872 by 71piotr, on Flickr



Former border post.


Border stone.


Cycle paths.


Dutch side.


Piece of art on 4 wheels in the lay-by 


Fuel prices in the Netherlands.


Dutch and Limburgisch name on one sign.


----------



## piotr71

*[NL][D] Reuver, Prinsendijk*

Location

On the way to Prinsendijk, lane located by the German border in the Netherlands.
DSC03885 by 71piotr, on Flickr

Germany on the left.


History of Prinsendijk. The information board is stuck to a bunker seen in the next picture.


----------



## Corvinus

Always a joy to my eyes to see the German speed limits sign with the recommended instead of mandated limit for motorways!


----------



## piotr71

*[NL][D] De Witte Steen*

Location

DSC03891 by 71piotr, on Flickr

Road to Germany is closed for motor vehicles.






Top end of Prinsedijk.


Road to Bracht in Germany.


ROad to Reuver in the Netherlands.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Café - Restaurant _De Grens_ (The Border).


----------



## piotr71

*[NL][D] Tegelen/Kaldenkirchen*

There is another "de grens"nearby  I met an owner of the former custom office, who, some time ago converted it into a telephone centre (sic!). Since his business stopped making reasonable profits he started new venture, unfortunately though, because that gentleman could communicate only in Dutch and strangely sounded German, after quite hard effort, I was unable to understand exactly what his new idea was. But I think it will be kind of meeting point or conference centre. Anyway, he showed me back yard and interiour of his property, so you may notice two addresses in two countries and the borderline dividing the building into two tax zones.



DSC03901 by 71piotr, on Flickr



Turning around.


Road alongside the border.






Mentioned gentleman and the borderline striking into his property. Mind the Dutch house number... 


...and German, located on the back door.
[URL="


----------



## Sunfuns

Swiss-German border in the woods north of Basel (Germany on the left, Switzerland on the right)










This is one of the older national borders in Europe. This particular border stone is now close to 200 years old. At that time it denoted a border between Switzerland and Duchy of Baden (yellow-red-yellow are their colours).










These days it's a moderately popular hiking path leading partially along the border.


----------



## Sunfuns

And I know there is no road in these particular photos, let alone a highway. Still might be of interest


----------



## Kemo

PL/UA border crossing in Korczowa/Краковець, European route E40.
Location: http://www.google.pl/maps/@49.9558593,23.1146555,907m/data=!3m1!1e3

In 2014, a 2x3 motorway was opened on the Polish side.
Now Ukraine constructed 450 metres of motorway on their side, so that the final 380 metres of motorway in PL can find some use 




igorlan said:


> Pozdrawiam


----------



## Penn's Woods

piotr71 said:


> Dutch and Limburgisch name on one sign.


There aren't lots of Dutch words or place names beginning in "Sw-," are there?

(Yes, that was off topic. self-:bash


----------



## Verso

I find "Zjwame" more problematic to say.


----------



## General Maximus

Strongly enforced border control.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Looks familiar.


----------



## Verso

Which border is that? :lol:


----------



## MX-BNE

*México - Belize
*









On the Mexican side:










*México - U.S.A.
*

Tijuana










I've read many times that this is the busiest land border crossing in the world but I'm not so sure.

San Ysidro Crossing - US Side










San Ysidro Crossing - Mexican Side










This one is pretty interesting.. Porfirio Díaz is one of the most hated presidents in México, and I didn't know that there was one avenue named after him in El Paso, TX. 










This is something unusual...










And the other border crossing that I know pretty well..

*Canada - USA*

Champlain - St-Bernard-de-Lacolle










Another old and interesting sign.. 










Bilingual signs in Québec


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^I know it well.... Le 10/15/20.

(I love the little no-handguns sign on the El Paso/Juarez gantry for traffic going to Mexico....)


----------



## Verso

Interesting that it says "Juárez, M*é*xico" on a sign in the US.


----------



## haddockman

Normal for destinations over the border to be signed that way. Same happens with Canadian destinations.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^I think Verso was pointing out the accent in Mexico. Which technically makes it the Spanish spelling rather than the English one. An issue which doesn't arise with Canada. (But, the other direction, I think you'll see "U.S.A." more often in Quebec than "Etats-Unis.")

As many times as I've driven up I-87, I can't remember whether Montreal, which starts appearing on distance/reassurance signs as soon as you leave New York City, is spelled with or without the accent....


----------



## Verso

Yes, "M*é*xico".


----------



## alserrod

And to be accurate, the "X" should be pronounced as an English H [meHico]
Same for Texas.


----------



## italystf

MX-BNE said:


> This is something unusual...


I-19 is the only road in the USA with metric signage.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ I think yes if you consider the km-based exit numbers it had (has?) e.g. Exit 100 was 100 km away from the starting point instead of 100 miles. and metres to upcoming exit signs it had
but km distance signs are pretty common especially near Canada border
I know there are some on I-89...


----------



## GROBIN

A couple of months ago I crossed here, between Lazdijai (LT) and Sankury/Sankūrai (yes! bilingual!) (PL) (on the Gaładuś/Galadusys lake). I took a couple of pics with my phone (I didn't have any good camera yet) 

1.Towards Poland. The asphalt ends, but it was of very bad quality anyway - extremely bumpy - which was too much for the car I had at that time and its hard suspension. It was an enormous relief to enter the 2-km non asphalted Polish section.









2. Towards Lithuania. The stairs visible on the right will take you to the Galadusys/Gaładuś lake.









3 i 4. On the very border, getting to the Galadusys/Gaładuś lake. I think they used to be only for Lithuanian customs officers, as now it looks completely abandoned.

















4.Towards Poland (with the last Lithuanian white and black roadside deflectors)









5 i 6. From the Polish side, you can see both countries on the Gaładuś/Galadusys lake

















7. Just as extremes you can see in Poland with only exonyms indicated ("Vilnius (LT) instead of "Wilno/Vilnius (LT)" or "Praha (CZ) instead of "Praga/Praha (CZ), here you can see something more rare but also existing in Poland: endonyms only. Here: "Łoździeje" (instead of "Łoździeje/Lazdijai (LT)")... The 1st high-tension tower is in Poland, the 2 others are already in Lithuania (the famous Lit-Pol-link promoted by Lithuania's former energy minister Jarosław Niewierowicz?).


----------



## Kanadzie

I'm curious of the above situation. I want to say the border monument is officially the line. Can one seize the land between on the river and have an independent republic absolute monarchy?

On the Canada/USA border for example these posts are actually one, with Canada written on one side and USA on the other, and is officially the border going through the middle of the stone...


----------



## GROBIN

Kanadzie said:


> I'm curious of the above situation. I want to say the border monument is officially the line. Can one seize the land between on the river and have an independent republic absolute monarchy?
> 
> On the Canada/USA border for example these posts are actually one, with Canada written on one side and USA on the other, and is officially the border going through the middle of the stone...


Who knows! Maybe between the Lithuanian and the Polish border monuments, there are remnants of the former Two-Nation Rzeczpospolita?


----------



## Corvinus

Two snapshots of the crossing N-II road (E) -> D900/Le Perthus (F), some years back.
Queue is not caused by border controls (there were none), but by heavy tourist and shopping traffic in Le Perthus.





















In Le Perthus, the actual borderline runs in the middle of D900 road for a while. The old booths visible in the photos come before, when all the road is on Spanish territory yet.


----------



## GROBIN

Corvinus said:


> Two snapshots of the crossing N-II road (E) -> D900/Le Perthus (F), some years back.
> Queue is not caused by border controls (there were none), but by heavy tourist and shopping traffic in Le Perthus.
> [...]
> In Le Perthus, the actual borderline runs in the middle of D900 road for a while. The old booths visible in the photos come before, when all the road is on Spanish territory yet.[...]


I'm having a look at it on Google Street View and it looks really interesting. Extremely hard to say that which part is in France and which part is in Spain. I am wondering how was this town divided during pre-Schengen times....
EDIT: looks like the road is not on Spanish, but on French territory. Only the Eastern sidewalk of this road seems to be in Spain.


----------



## alserrod

GROBIN said:


> I'm having a look at it on Google Street View and it looks really interesting. Extremely hard to say that which part is in France and which part is in Spain. I am wondering how was this town divided during pre-Schengen times....
> EDIT: looks like the road is not on Spanish, but on French territory. Only the Eastern sidewalk of this road seems to be in Spain.


It didn't exist at all.

In Spain the N-II is one out of Top6 main roads and ends there. The tolled motorway AP-7 is just some km away.

Last 500m are (looking to north)

- Left pedestrian shoulder = France
- all the road, incluiding where you can park = France
- Right pedestrian shoulder = Spain.


Therefore, if you are in the right side of your car, after parking, just getting off would be crossing an international border.



Hint: Look at the detail that it is blue parking zone but parking metres are only in French side.


(there are other two parkings, each one in one country and they advice that tickets sold for one country aren't allowed for the other one. I guess each area would be managed by a company)


----------



## Eulanthe

Wait, wait...what do you mean the road didn't exist at all?

I'm completely confused. Does it mean the road (and shops) were built after Schengen?


----------



## Highway89

Eulanthe said:


> Wait, wait...what do you mean the road didn't exist at all?
> 
> I'm completely confused. Does it mean the road (and shops) were built after Schengen?


I'm not sure what he means but I'm pretty sure the road has been there since 1939 at least, as it was used by a large number of refugees of the Spanish Civil War of 1936-1939. Probably the road dates back to the times of the Roman empire.

Besides, aerial imagery from 1945 already shows buildings on both sides of the border.


----------



## verreme

GROBIN said:


> I'm having a look at it on Google Street View and it looks really interesting. Extremely hard to say that which part is in France and which part is in Spain. I am wondering how was this town divided during pre-Schengen times....
> EDIT: looks like the road is not on Spanish, but on French territory. Only the Eastern sidewalk of this road seems to be in Spain.


In pre-Schengen times this town had a special status, as it lies after the border crossing. Not 100% sure, but I think I saw earlier in this thread that villagers had special passports.



Highway89 said:


> I'm not sure what he means but I'm pretty sure the road has been there since 1939 at least, as it was used by a large number of refugees of the Spanish Civil War of 1936-1939. Probably the road dates back to the times of the Roman empire.
> 
> Besides, aerial imagery from 1945 already shows buildings on both sides of the border.


Le Perthus pass has been the main route to cross the Pyrenees for centuries. The Roman road climbed much higher than the current one, and there are remains of it in the mountains. I'm not really sure when was current N-II built, but I guess it's several centuries old since the road to France went always through there.


----------



## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> Wait, wait...what do you mean the road didn't exist at all?
> 
> I'm completely confused. Does it mean the road (and shops) were built after Schengen?





Highway89 said:


> I'm not sure what he means but I'm pretty sure the road has been there since 1939 at least, as it was used by a large number of refugees of the Spanish Civil War of 1936-1939. Probably the road dates back to the times of the Roman empire.
> 
> Besides, aerial imagery from 1945 already shows buildings on both sides of the border.




I am not sure where the Romans crossed the Pyrenees (I do know that over Somport pass surely  but nothing about that exact area)

Anyway, after Spanish booths and before Schengen no buildings existed.
I would state that they are the only Spanish buildings after some custom booths (providing new international crosses hasn't booths at all)


I got this single map about roads in Spain (I put the link due to it is oversized)

https://fronterasblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/340a.jpg

It is from 1940 when current road numbers was decided. 
In red, top6 main roads departing from Madrid.

Els Limits is in the border besides the Mediterranean, the overtraffic road is indeed that corner in red.

The other ones, depending of the area, first digit, depending of distance to centre, second digit.



In addition, the same system says (in one corner), Balearic islands will start with 7 and Canary islands with 8. 
It doesn't say at all but North African roads started on 9.

Nowadays all islands are considered local roads, even if motorways, and would have a numeration according to the island only.
Ceuta hasn't national roads and Melilla two small ones which, both of them start with a 3.


----------



## OulaL

Verso said:


> Interesting that it says "Juárez, M*é*xico" on a sign in the US.


Like in German-speaking Basel there are signs to "France".


----------



## CNGL

alserrod said:


> I got this single map about roads in Spain (I put the link due to it is oversized)
> 
> https://fronterasblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/340a.jpg
> 
> It is from 1940 when current road numbers was decided.
> In red, top6 main roads departing from Madrid.


Notice that N-II initially took a different route to that of Madrid-French border at La Jonquera road through Barcelona province: between Igualada and Martorell it went via current C-15 and B-224 (set to become C-54) while its predecessor were just local roads. And between Barcelona and Massanet it went on C-17 and C-35, with its precursor becoming C-251 instead. By the 70s this was corrected, and N-II was now entirely on the route the Madrid-French border at La Jonquera road took.


alserrod said:


> Ceuta hasn't national roads and Melilla two small ones which, both of them start with a 3.


Erm, it's the other way round. Ceuta has national roads (actually all between N-350 and N-362 exist, but only N-352, N-354 and N-362 are signed), while Melilla has none, only a bunch of ML-xxx roads (ML-102, ML-105, ML-300) which are still maintained by Fomento. Oh, and although it's unsigned, Melilla is also home to one of the weirdest designations ever: the N-NADOR!


----------



## Eulanthe

The N-351 runs to Gibraltar, doesn't it?

But about Le Perthus : 



alserrod said:


> Anyway, after Spanish booths and before Schengen no buildings existed.


Are you sure? I've found this : 










And this










Which seems to be here : 

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.463...ionH5YQt0ksOHNn_cg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

It seems to me that the Spanish border control was roughly where it the current one is - http://lou.gabel.free.fr/images/LePerthus/LP31.jpg

What do you think?


----------



## MichiH

^^ Both, the French and the Spanish village, seem to be quite old: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Límites.


----------



## CNGL

So, Pristina is now in Kyrgyzstan? :nuts:


----------



## verreme

N-152/N20 crossing from Spain to France in the Pyrenees. I shot this video days after the terrorist attacks in Brussels, with France paranoid about its borders. Waiting times of 2 hours were reported in the border crossing of El Pertús/Le Perthus due to border checks, so I chose to go to Toulouse from Barcelona the hard way (through the Pyrenees) and ended up saving 1 hour or more. You can see how difficult it was for me to get through the border -in fact, it could have been even easier if I had taken the bypass of Bourg-Madame, but I wanted to drive French N20 from its very ending .






A full upgrade of E9 to motorway standards has been long promised by politicians of both countries, but I honestly think that it will never see the light. This corridor is a bit forgotten, with all traffic (road&rail) using the coastal route via Narbonne to avoid the mountains. In fact, a train ride from Barcelona to Latour-de-Carol will take you more than 3 hours in a bare commuter train, and then you have to take another one because there are no international services.


----------



## OulaL

http://www.123rf.com/stock-photo/autobahn_alps.html?mediapopup=53941899

Four capitals, one sign. I do not own the image, and too bad there is no Street View either, but maybe this link will do.


----------



## italystf

CNGL said:


> So, Pristina is now in Kyrgyzstan? :nuts:


The correct country code for Kosovo is RKS (Republic of Kosovo).


----------



## Alex_ZR

italystf said:


> The correct country code for Kosovo is RKS (Republic of Kosovo).


According to Wikipedia, KS was used in 1999-2010 period. RKS appeared for the first time in 2010 when new Kosovo license plates were issued.


----------



## Mathias Olsen

verreme said:


> A full upgrade of E9 to motorway standards has been long promised by politicians of both countries, but I honestly think that it will never see the light.


However there is a big need for such an upgrade, because it is after the A7 and the A1 the third motorway in France with the most traffic. There are plans for an upgrade.


----------



## verreme

Mathias Olsen said:


> However there is a big need for such an upgrade, because it is after the A7 and the A1 the third motorway in France with the most traffic. There are plans for an upgrade.


I said E9 not A9  Traffic on most of E9 in France is not very high, but N20 in the Pyrenees (which is part of E9) carries more than 10.000 vehicles per day in old two-lane roadways.


----------



## MrAkumana

verreme said:


> N-152/N20 crossing from Spain to France in the Pyrenees. I shot this video days after the terrorist attacks in Brussels, with France paranoid about its borders. Waiting times of 2 hours were reported in the border crossing of El Pertús/Le Perthus due to border checks, so I chose to go to Toulouse from Barcelona the hard way (through the Pyrenees) and ended up saving 1 hour or more. You can see how difficult it was for me to get through the border -in fact, it could have been even easier if I had taken the bypass of Bourg-Madame, but I wanted to drive French N20 from its very ending .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A full upgrade of E9 to motorway standards has been long promised by politicians of both countries, but I honestly think that it will never see the light. This corridor is a bit forgotten, with all traffic (road&rail) using the coastal route via Narbonne to avoid the mountains. In fact, a train ride from Barcelona to Latour-de-Carol will take you more than 3 hours in a bare commuter train, and then you have to take another one because there are no international services.


Funny thing: at 2:57 there's another border crossing. If you take the left exit you enter Spain and have a paved road straight to Puigcerda's hospital. There are many crossings around Puigcerda, but most are only known by locals.


----------



## alserrod

Yeah, and the Llivia enclave


----------



## arctic_carlos

verreme said:


> A full upgrade of E9 to motorway standards has been long promised by politicians of both countries, but I honestly think that it will never see the light. This corridor is a bit forgotten, with all traffic (road&rail) using the coastal route via Narbonne to avoid the mountains. In fact, a train ride from Barcelona to Latour-de-Carol will take you more than 3 hours in a bare commuter train, and then you have to take another one because there are no international services.


I agree with you, upgrading the remaining parts of E9 to motorway standards would be terribly expensive. 

As a matter of fact, in 2009 the Catalan regional government published a study to upgrade the 20 km section between Berga (current end of the C-16 motorway coming from Barcelona) and Bagà, with an estimated cost of 631M€ (32.5 M€/km). You can see that study, with lots of images, renders and maps in this link:

http://www.vilada.net/docs/activitats/Berga - Bagà -1- 6-3-09.pdf

That project was abandoned and now the idea is to upgrade only 6.5 km (between Berga and Cercs) to motorway standards, and to widen the remaining section between Cercs and Bagà (13.5 km) with a reversible middle lane, which would be open to northbound or southbound traffic depending on traffic levels. That section would also have a movable central reservation, something I've never seen before in Spain.

http://www.govern.cat/pres_gov/AppJ...pora-duplicacio-dun-tram-6-5-quilometres.html

In any case, I don't think we'll ever see an upgrade between Bagà and the French border in Puigcerdà (29 km), as it would involve building the second tube of the 5 km long Cadí tunnel. Besides, building a motorway through the Cerdanya plateau would involve for sure a huge amount of nimbysm, as the Cerdanya area is known for its environmental value... and the big number of people from Barcelona having second houses there. :lol:

Finally, I'd like to add that between 2013 and 2015 the Puymorens tunnel was closed every summer season (between April and November) due to safety upgrades being carried out. Fortunately, I've read these works have ended and now the tunnel is open the whole year.


----------



## Zagor666

Alex_ZR said:


> According to Wikipedia, KS was used in 1999-2010 period. RKS appeared for the first time in 2010 when new Kosovo license plates were issued.


The official oval for Kosovo is YU :cheers:


----------



## CNGL

And KS stands for Kyrgyzstan (although they use KGZ instead IIRC).


----------



## knrOctober

The border between Thailand and Laos on the Mekong River.


http://cruisesmekongriver.net/mekong-river-map.html

The First Thai-Lao Friendship Bridge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai%E2%80%93Lao_Friendship_Bridge




http://www.payer.de/thailandchronik/chronik1994b.htm


https://www.flickr.com/photos/shankaronline/14526011515/in/photostream/

The Second Thai-Lao Friendship Bridge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Thai%E2%80%93Lao_Friendship_Bridge


https://kuopio2539.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/bf8d1-friendship_bridge1.jpg



http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/34760/how-do-roads-switch-from-driving-on-the-left-side-of-the-road-to-driving-on-the



http://e-shann.com/?p=5155

The Third Thai-Lao Friendship Bridge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Thai%E2%80%93Lao_Friendship_Bridge


https://anuchitloveton.wordpress.com/page/2/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy3w9MYaPbY


http://2g.pantip.com/cafe/blueplanet/topic/E11664453/E11664453.html

The Fourth Thai-Lao Friendship Bridge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Thai%E2%80%93Lao_Friendship_Bridge












http://www.skyscrapercity.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=109696784









http://www.skyscrapercity.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=109653699


----------



## Nikkodemo




----------



## Nikkodemo

*San Ysidro Port of Entry*


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Playas de Tijuana, the most photogenic borderline corner of the world.*


----------



## Kemo

Just a short question.
What documents does a EU citizen need to cross Bosnia & Herzegovina's territory in Neum? Is an ID card enough?


----------



## haddockman

Kemo said:


> Just a short question.
> What documents does a EU citizen need to cross Bosnia & Herzegovina's territory in Neum? Is an ID card enough?


Nationals of EU countries, Liechtenstein, Monaco, Montenegro, Serbia and Switzerland can enter Bosnia and Herzegovina *visa-free* for up to 90 days with either a passport or a national identity card.


----------



## Corvinus

Is an EU identity card good for Albania, Montenegro, Macedonia as well?


----------



## bogdymol

I crossed Bosnia at Neum both ways using Romanian ID card only.


----------



## eucitizen

Yes it is, actually also Kosovo says on his Ministry of Foreign Affairs' webite that EU citizens can enter with a valid "biometric" ID card.

Even more also in Moldova and Georgia EU citizens can enter with an ID card. For Georgia, only if you come from a Schengen country.


----------



## stickedy

Corvinus said:


> Is an EU identity card good for Albania, Montenegro, Macedonia as well?


Yes, no problem there.


----------



## Eulanthe

Kemo said:


> Just a short question.
> What documents does a EU citizen need to cross Bosnia & Herzegovina's territory in Neum? Is an ID card enough?


It'll be a surprise if BiH even checks you on entry/exit. 

Croatia checks everyone, but it's common for the BiH border police to simply not be there or to be drinking coffee with their colleagues instead of actually checking. The amount of people using the EU line when the "All Passports" line is empty is amazing there, though.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ Bosnia people really really want to be in EU


----------



## SRC_100

Eulanthe said:


> The amount of people using the EU line when the "All Passports" line is empty is amazing there, though.


That`s why i always use the second one b/n BiH and HR. Don`t have to wait in queue and don`t feel like moron or bonehead at least. But must know i used only northern borderds b/n HR and BiH.


----------



## Xicano

Most of Euorpes borders crossing look like California fruit check areas lol










Mexico has interior check points a few miles inland from the US border Usually looking for wild Germans or American clowns lol


----------



## NordikNerd

There where Id-control at Rödbyhavn. The customs officer did not ask for passports. 
All cars were checked.

When driving from Denmark to Germany there were NO checks.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Earlier this month I made a trip to Norway. I've been checked at all three borders.

On A7-E45 at the German-Danish border, there was a Denmark-bound checkpoint by the military, police and customs. They obviously only checked foreign vehicles. They checked my passport as well, asked a few questions and I could go within a minute.

On E20 at the Danish-Swedish border, there is a Sweden-bound checkpoint immediately after the Øresund Bridge. This appears like a permanent checkpoint, they checked all lanes with limited staff, it appeared that there are more toll plaza lanes than staff to check it. They asked me where I was going. I did not have to show my passport.

On E18 at the Swedish-Norwegian bordere there was a regular border crossing. They wanted to see my passport and vehicle papers. They also wanted to know if I was carrying any alcohol. I said I had a sixpack of beer. They briefly checked in my car, but didn't turn it entirely inside-out. 

On the way back there were no border checks at all. On E14 at the Norwegian-Swedish border there is a checkpoint for goods to declare, but I did not spot any staff. There were no active controls. I also crossed the border on two local roads a little farther north of there, but there were no border crossing facilities, just a sign entering Sweden and Norway.


----------



## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> Earlier this month I made a trip to Norway. I've been checked at all three borders.
> 
> On A7-E45 at the German-Danish border, there was a Denmark-bound checkpoint by the military, police and customs. They obviously only checked foreign vehicles. They checked my passport as well, asked a few questions and I could go within a minute.
> 
> On E20 at the Danish-Swedish border, there is a Sweden-bound checkpoint immediately after the Øresund Bridge. This appears like a permanent checkpoint, they checked all lanes with limited staff, it appeared that there are more toll plaza lanes than staff to check it. They asked me where I was going. I did not have to show my passport.
> 
> On E18 at the Swedish-Norwegian bordere there was a regular border crossing. They wanted to see my passport and vehicle papers. They also wanted to know if I was carrying any alcohol. I said I had a sixpack of beer. They briefly checked in my car, but didn't turn it entirely inside-out.
> 
> On the way back there were no border checks at all. On E14 at the Norwegian-Swedish border there is a checkpoint for goods to declare, but I did not spot any staff. There were no active controls. I also crossed the border on two local roads a little farther north of there, but there were no border crossing facilities, just a sign entering Sweden and Norway.


This is quite the same how things went at the pre-Schengen era, except that those persons who obviously were the citizens of the Nordic counties were not asked for passports. (The passport union.)


----------



## Verso

Since when do Czechs control their border with Austria? A Czech border officer asked us if we were migrants. He was joking, of course.


----------



## bogdymol

I entered Czech Republic from Austria (Linz) about a month ago. There were controls by the Czech Police on the direction to Czech Republic. I stopped, gave them the ID cards, they looked at them for 5 seconds, gave then back and that was it.

Recently Austria introduced border controls for the traffic entering from Hungary on M1/A4. I always check on Google Maps, and if I see there is a traffic jam at the border I used 2 options so far:
- two times when the queue was not that long I took the last exit in Hungary and crossed the border on the road parallel to the motorway border. There was a police officer there, but was too bored to do any checks. I didn't even have to stop
- another time I went through Slovakia. No police in sight in either Hungary, Slovakia or Austria if I took that small detour.


----------



## Kpc21

I was crossing the Slovak-Hungarian border something like 2 months ago by bus and there was no border control at all, even no sign of it. I think there is no "anti-Schengen" control on this border at all.

I was, however, checked on German-Polish border 2 weeks before that. But it wasn't an "anti-Schengen" control as well, it was a proper Schengen internal random control. The police stopped our bus a few km before the border, collected the passports and the ID's, checked them in their car, came back and returned the documents.

By the way, do Americans and Mexicans really not like each other so much that they have so advanced border controls, with even internal checkpoints, and a border between two democratic countries is one of the most guarded national borders in the world?


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ yes definitely
It's nothing new, my father told me about that internal border in MX when he vacationed there in the 1970's. Back then, before free trade, they were very interested to make sure you wouldn't leave your car in Mexico, due to the barriers to trade... but it's important to note the "security situation" in Mexico is not at in any way a EU (even Bulgaria...) or US standard, so things are more... ****y.

As for the Nordic previous situation, I remember an (American) friend being waved at by the Danish border guards entering the country... "sve Dansk?" "ja ja" ok go in :lol:
Which is exactly as it should be, she was doing not anything nefarious or negative for DK...


----------



## OulaL

ChrisZwolle said:


> On the way back there were no border checks at all. On E14 at the Norwegian-Swedish border there is a checkpoint for goods to declare, but I did not spot any staff. There were no active controls. I also crossed the border on two local roads a little farther north of there, but there were no border crossing facilities, just a sign entering Sweden and Norway.


I crossed on E14 in January with goods that I actually needed to declare. There was no staff on the roadside, so I parked my car and went inside the customs house. Even then they didn't bother coming out to actually see the vehicle, just took the documents, spent some time with their computer and then gave them back stamped.

It was maybe -20C outside, the house was nice and warm.


----------



## italystf

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ yes definitely
> It's nothing new, my father told me about that internal border in MX when he vacationed there in the 1970's. Back then, before free trade, they were very interested to make sure you wouldn't leave your car in Mexico, due to the barriers to trade... but it's important to note the "security situation" in Mexico is not at in any way a EU (even Bulgaria...) or US standard, so things are more... ****y.
> 
> As for the Nordic previous situation, I remember an (American) friend being waved at by the Danish border guards entering the country... "sve Dansk?" "ja ja" ok go in :lol:
> Which is exactly as it should be, she was doing not anything nefarious or negative for DK...


Northern Mexico is one of the most dangerous area in Latin America, due to drug-traffiking-related guerrilla, so it's pretty normal to expect strict controls. Plus, there's a huge income divide between the two sides. I'd compare it with borders between Spain and Morocco, Turkey and Bulgaria, Poland and Ukraine, etc...


----------



## Verso

^^ I don't think there's any difference on the Turkish-Bulgarian border.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> ^^ I don't think there's any difference on the Turkish-Bulgarian border.


In which sense? Maybe there's not a huge income divide between Turkey and Bulgaria, but that's the border between the peaceful and democratic Europe and the conflict-ridden Middle East (together with GR-TR border, of course).
The amount of immigrants that try to enter EU from Turkey is probably comparable to the amount of immigrants that try to enter the USA from Mexico.


----------



## Xicano

italystf said:


> Northern Mexico is one of the most dangerous area in Latin America, due to drug-traffiking-related guerrilla, so it's pretty normal to expect strict controls. Plus, there's a huge income divide between the two sides. I'd compare it with borders between Spain and Morocco, Turkey and Bulgaria, Poland and Ukraine, etc...


The BIG difference is you have Millions of Americans/Canadians flocking to live in Mexico you dont see that between any countries in Europe.
Sometimes, they are U.S. citizens. It's estimated that 1 million or so American citizens live in Mexico, many of them retirees who head south of the border to enjoy the warm weather, great food and lower cost of living.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ts-own-immigration-problem-american-retirees/
In Many Americans eyes living in Mexico is a life style Up grade from living in the US
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/americans-immigrate-to-mexico-to-retire-report-better-living-conditions/

Mexico is more welcoming and dont fall for false hatred towards people like in the US.

While figures are hard to come by, some argue that U.S. citizens may make up the vast majority of illegal immigrants in Mexico.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ts-own-immigration-problem-american-retirees/


----------



## MattiG

italystf said:


> Northern Mexico is one of the most dangerous area in Latin America, due to drug-traffiking-related guerrilla, so it's pretty normal to expect strict controls. Plus, there's a huge income divide between the two sides. I'd compare it with borders between Spain and Morocco, Turkey and Bulgaria, Poland and Ukraine, etc...


One possible metric to estimate the differences in the standard of living is the ratio of the GDP per capita of the neighbors. Yes, I know that this metric is far from being perfect, but it gives some guidance.

Some ratios (based of the 2014 figures of World Bank):

US-Mexico: 5.3
Finland-Russia: 3.9
Spain-Morocco: 9.3
Turkey-Bulgaria: 1.3
Poland-Ukraine: 4.7


----------



## Xicano

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ yes definitely
> It's nothing new, my father told me about that internal border in MX when he vacationed there in the 1970's. Back then, before free trade, they were very interested to make sure you wouldn't leave your car in Mexico, due to the barriers to trade... but it's important to note the "security situation" in Mexico is not at in any way a EU (even Bulgaria...) or US standard, so things are more... ****y.
> 
> As for the Nordic previous situation, I remember an (American) friend being waved at by the Danish border guards entering the country... "sve Dansk?" "ja ja" ok go in :lol:
> Which is exactly as it should be, she was doing not anything nefarious or negative for DK...


What do you mean its shitty and the 70s were over 40 years ago

This is what you will find as for security I know first hand lol


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> Let's not forget that the Spain-Gibraltar border is completely fenced off, except at three points, with each point being no more than two lanes wide. The border fence there even extends into the sea, and this is also the final border fence between two EU countries.


Hungary-Croatia


----------



## Kpc21

Eulanthe said:


> (final point: are you also on PolishForums? I recognise your username!)


I happen to appear there  Internet is small.



Verso said:


> Hungary-Croatia


Yes, isn't it so that they have recently built a fence on this border, due to the refugee crysis?



















It's an internal EU border, but external Schengen border.

Before Poland joined Schengen, the same (or even worse) was on the Poland-Germany border. Even though it was already an internal EU border.

By the way, the Poland restores the border control on its internal Schengen borders in the time from tomorrow to August 2nd. Due to the NATO summit and the World Youth Days.

Crossing the border in the places other than border crossings will be in this time forbidden. But controls at the border crossings are going to be random.

It's interesting how it will look like in practice. For example, in the mountains, on the Polish-Czech and Polish-Slovak border, it's often so, that small border poles are the only sign of the border. There is no fence, no empty lane, nothing, and everything is in a forest. It must be easy to cross the border unnoticed anyway. And even if someone will be checked after crossing the border (but the crossing will not be noticed by the guard), everything will be OK, because crossing the border is allowed with an ID card, where there is no place for passport stamps.

Visa-free traffic with the Russia's Kaliningrad Circuit for Polish people living near the Russian border (and vice versa) will also be suspended for this time.


----------



## Xicano

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ But the US-Mexico border, its no problem at all for US or Mexican citizens to cross, no visa needed, at the proper crossing, either. And millions of trucks are crossing, and they aren't waiting hours either (maybe 1 hour)... it's an important part of the US / Mexico economy. (but it is tricky for Mexican-registered trucks to get deep into the US for stupid and illegal reasons)


:cheers:


----------



## Corvinus

Kpc21 said:


> Yes, isn't it so that they have recently built a fence on this border, due to the refugee crysis?
> 
> It's an internal EU border, but external Schengen border.


Yes, the H-HR border fence was built in a rush just after completion of the H-SRB fence.

After completion of the fence on the Serbian border, the migrants shifted towards Croatia as they did not want to apply for asylum in Hungary and otherwise were not admitted in. 
Immediately before the migrant wave, Croatian government, similar to Serbian one, was bragging about how much better than Hungary they will take care of them and that "no fence will be built". In contrast, their handling and registration system collapsed after one(!) day, overwhelmed by the load of migrants. Thereafter, Croatian authorities just transported the migrants to the Hungarian border. Politicians also threatened to disperse the migrants along the green border should Hungary not take them in at the official crossings.
It became clear that only with a fence along the H-HR land border would it become possible for Hungary to stop admitting the masses. This is why the fence was pulled up in a day and night effort (only some 40-50 kms of length since the rest of the border runs along the river Dráva).
Once the fence was ready in October 2015, illegal immigrants from Croatia were no longer admitted (and almost none of them wanted to legally apply for asylum at a Hungarian border post), and Croatian authorities chose the way of least resistance: they forwarded the stream to Slovenia from then on.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> Hungary-Croatia


Has the fence actually survived the winter? I've read somewhere that the H-SRB fence is in a pitiful state because it was put together in such a rush.


----------



## Verso

Corvinus said:


> Once the fence was ready in October 2015, illegal immigrants from Croatia were no longer admitted (and almost none of them wanted to legally apply for asylum at a Hungarian border post), and Croatian authorities chose the way of least resistance: they forwarded the stream to Slovenia from then on.


Croatian policemen even showed migrants where they can swim across the Sotla border river into Slovenia.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ EU cooperation :lol:
No wonder the Brits ran away :lol:


----------



## Xicano

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ But the US-Mexico border, its no problem at all for US or Mexican citizens to cross, no visa needed, at the proper crossing, either. And millions of trucks are crossing, and they aren't waiting hours either (maybe 1 hour)... it's an important part of the US / Mexico economy. (but it is tricky for Mexican-registered trucks to get deep into the US for stupid and illegal reasons)


Many Americans actualy live in TJ and commute to SD area, its not a issue at all. Mexico has also been hit with africans trying to go to the US from Mexico. They say its longer but safer than going through Italy to Europe.


----------



## Corvinus

Where do these Africans enter the American continent? Are many African countries exempt from visitor visas for Mexico?


----------



## Kpc21

Eulanthe said:


> Has the fence actually survived the winter? I've read somewhere that the H-SRB fence is in a pitiful state because it was put together in such a rush.


I took the photo from my previous post in April.

And it's actually along the river Drava in that place. Although the proper shape of the border deviates much from the river - I suppose it was so that the border was first along the river, and then the river changed its path.


----------



## NordikNerd

Sign in Helsingör, Denmark informing about upcoming ID-checks for those 
who intend to board the ferry to Sweden. This ID-check was introduced on january 4th 2016


----------



## cinxxx

^^How long is the delay time on the train between Copenhagen and Malmö (both ways)? 
I will be in Copenhagen next weekend and maybe I would also visit Sweden. Not exactly sure if Malmö is pretty or maybe Helsingborg...


----------



## NordikNerd

cinxxx said:


> ^^How long is the delay time on the train between Copenhagen and Malmö (both ways)?
> I will be in Copenhagen next weekend and maybe I would also visit Sweden. Not exactly sure if Malmö is pretty or maybe Helsingborg...


In january newspapers wrote: Normally the trainjourney between Copenhagen and Malmö takes 35 minutes. After the introduction of id-checks it can take up to 1.5 hours.

When I travelled from Helsingör to Helsingborg with car on june 26th, there were no queues or delays what so ever. Me and my family were not checked of id at all in Helsingör nor Helsingborg. I think the refugee crisis is over for the moment.

I would recommend Helsingborg instead of Malmö, much nicer city and the ferry is very pleasant.

Lately a swedish newspaper wrote that the stream of refugees may increase again though.

The Migration Board raised warnings that up to 8000 asylum seekers can come to Skåne (south Sweden) during the period from July 4th to 17th. and according to the Conservative party the temporary refugee influx may be even higher.


- When the Migration Board estimates that about 8000 asylumseekers can come to Sweden for two weeks in July, they make the assumption that Germany has had time to register all their asylum seekers. But the germans are having difficulties to catch up with the ever invreasing influx of refugees. 

The drivingforce to come to Sweden is very strong also for the refugees who are staying in Germany.
- In Germany there are now half a million refugees that are not registered. If Sweden will end the id-checks even for two weeks very much can happen.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> Croatian policemen even showed migrants where they can swim across the Sotla border river into Slovenia.


Why swim across when there are plenty of interesting places to simply walk across? 

(Not that I've done it in numerous places. Of course not.)


----------



## x-type

Corvinus said:


> Yes, the H-HR border fence was built in a rush just after completion of the H-SRB fence.
> 
> After completion of the fence on the Serbian border, the migrants shifted towards Croatia as they did not want to apply for asylum in Hungary and otherwise were not admitted in.
> Immediately before the migrant wave, Croatian government, similar to Serbian one, was bragging about how much better than Hungary they will take care of them and that "no fence will be built". In contrast, their handling and registration system collapsed after one(!) day, overwhelmed by the load of migrants. Thereafter, Croatian authorities just transported the migrants to the Hungarian border. Politicians also threatened to disperse the migrants along the green border should Hungary not take them in at the official crossings.
> It became clear that only with a fence along the H-HR land border would it become possible for Hungary to stop admitting the masses. This is why the fence was pulled up in a day and night effort (only some 40-50 kms of length since the rest of the border runs along the river Dráva).
> Once the fence was ready in October 2015, illegal immigrants from Croatia were no longer admitted (and almost none of them wanted to legally apply for asylum at a Hungarian border post), and Croatian authorities chose the way of least resistance: they forwarded the stream to Slovenia from then on.


how many camps has Hungary risen for immigrants?


----------



## Xicano

Corvinus said:


> Where do these Africans enter the American continent? Are many African countries exempt from visitor visas for Mexico?




I believe through the Caribbean countries and central America.....


----------



## Alex_ZR

I think this is maybe the unique border crossing, where there is a rail crossing between two border stations.

Vrbica (SRB)-Vălcani (RO):






(notice rail crossing at 0:53)

This rail goes from Kikinda to Banatsko Aranđelovo in Serbia, in this part going almost at the border line.


----------



## gr_kanev

Alex_ZR said:


> I think this is maybe the unique border crossing, where there is a rail crossing between two border stations.
> 
> Vrbica (SRB)-Vălcani (RO)


It's not the only one - there is also at Halmeu (RO) - Diakove (UA) :






Railway crossing is seen at 4:45


----------



## italystf

^^ The road on the Romanian side seems a nightmare to drive on, notice how the driver often drives in the median of the road, to avoid the ultra-deep potholes.


----------



## cinxxx

^^the author of the video actually writes in the comments that he damaged his direction (not sure if this is the right English word) on that road...


----------



## pai nosso

*Portugal / Spain* »» [See Location]


Vila Verde da Raia (PT) / Feces de Abaixo (ESP) -- June of 2016


1-Portuguese Old Customs


2-International Bridge

Source: pai nosso


----------



## pai nosso

*Spain / Portugal* »» [See Location]


Ponte Barxas (ESP) / São Gregório (PT) -- June of 2016


1-Spanish Old Customs


2-Spanish Old Customs


3-Portuguese Old Customs


4-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## Verso

pai nosso said:


> *Feces* de Abaixo (ESP)


:shifty:


----------



## italystf

Eulanthe said:


> Nope, there are several on the Slovenian/Croatian border
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/place/B...600ad5153373812!8m2!3d45.8399478!4d15.6878318 - the border here is completely open for cars to cross. There's an old Croatian police booth nearby, but this was abandoned once Croatia joined the EU. I drove up to the border crossing on both sides, got out, looked around, took photographs and no-one arrived to ask what I was doing. It's also perfectly possible to access the whole of Slovenia and Croatia from that point, too.


That's utterly crazy and clearly against the Schengen agreement!
And they wonder because Austria (and other countries) want to build walls...
Considering how poor is the HR-BiH border controlled in some parts, it means that one can travel from BiH to Slovenia (and thus the whole Schengen area) without showing a document.


----------



## Verso

That would be a drop in the ocean compared to who's coming from Africa.  I'm sure they have detectors and that there isn't much going on there. Once I approached the border on a local road and the police were immediately after me.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> That would be a drop in the ocean compared to who's coming from Africa.  I'm sure they have detectors and that there isn't much going on there. Once I approached the border on a local road and the police were immediately after me.


Tell me your secret!

I tried many things to get their attention, and it was only one fat guy in Bregana that told me to get lost. Everywhere else, nothing, even before Croatia joined the EU.

Apparently Croatia has a lot of equipment monitoring the BiH border, but that might just be them saying that so people don't try and cross illegally. The only place I've seen border police on the HR/BiH border was at Zeljava, but they told me that it was a common place for illegal entries into Croatia as it was easy to hide there - and that they had a lot of problems with tourists crossing the border for fun there.



> That's utterly crazy and clearly against the Schengen agreement!


Want more?

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.164...4!1s1K9vDd-Gz20cy4Y8xCzcAw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Completely wide open. No controls, no guards, nothing. (off topic, but I have no idea if that water park is abandoned or not. It's terrifying)

I've posted pictures before, but there's a street in Metković (HR) where the border with BiH is wide open and you can just drive in/out of Croatia freely. There's even a rather interesting petrol station located just on BiH territory that can only be accessed from Croatia, and prices are in BAM rather than HRK. 

There's a good article here about it - http://www.slobodnadalmacija.hr/dal...lice-marka-marulica-europa-nas-zatvara-u-geto - Croatia apparently intended to block off the whole street, but nothing has changed yet as far as I know.


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> Tell me your secret!


Nothing, I was just trying to find an appropriate place to turn around.


----------



## Xicano

*Canada lift Visas from Mexican Visitors*

Its a great deal for Canada since 2 million Canadians go to Mexico each year and only around 5000 Mexicans go to Canada a year.

I heard Canada will put special border agents at Mexico's airports to stop Americans Europens etc... from trying to sneak into Canada as Mexican Citizens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8eIL0zvbuE


----------



## italystf

^^ That would probably lead to an increase of control on the US-Canadian border. Currently the US-Canadian border is poorly controlled especially in rural areas, with several paths in the forest that one can use to sneak illegally to the other side. Probably many Mexicans will try to fly to Canada and then cross illegally the US border.


----------



## Yörch1

Xicano said:


> Its a great deal for Canada since 2 million Canadians go to Mexico each year and only around 5000 Mexicans go to Canada a year.
> 
> I heard Canada will put special border agents at Mexico's airports to stop Americans Europens etc... from trying to sneak into Canada as Mexican Citizens
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8eIL0zvbuE


Totally wrong information.

Mexican tourists into Canada are around 250,000 a year. (last year, visa required). It dropped by 50% since the visa imposing in 2009. 

http://en.destinationcanada.com/research/statistics-figures/international-visitor-arrivals


----------



## Xicano

italystf said:


> ^^ That would probably lead to an increase of control on the US-Canadian border. Currently the US-Canadian border is poorly controlled especially in rural areas, with several paths in the forest that one can use to sneak illegally to the other side. Probably many Mexicans will try to fly to Canada and then cross illegally the US border.


That makes no sense Immigration from Mexico is at net 0% why would they go to Canada to go into the US?? lol Canada turns back Americans every day tats the major problem for Canada not Mexico thats why Mexicans have no more Visa requirments.



Yörch said:


> Totally wrong information.
> 
> Mexican tourists into Canada are around 250,000 a year. (last year, visa required). It dropped by 50% since the visa imposing in 2009.
> 
> http://en.destinationcanada.com/research/statistics-figures/international-visitor-arrivals


Year to date Mexico	16,555	8.1 thats an increas of 8% from last year

Thats a big differrence from 250000 lol


----------



## Proof Sheet

*Estcourt Station ME*

http://www.atlasobscura.com/article...lications-of-living-atop-the-us-canada-border

Interesting article about this community split between Canada and the USA in the far northern part of Maine.


----------



## Verso

^^ Same thing on the Slovenian-Croatian border. Since people wanted to live in Slovenia and the border isn't clearly defined yet, we just annexed it. :troll:


----------



## Gyorgy

^^ GM is kind of on Croatian side, while GE is totaly for Slovenia :lol:


----------



## Proof Sheet

Verso said:


> ^^ Same thing on the Slovenian-Croatian border. Since people wanted to live in Slovenia and the border isn't clearly defined yet, we just annexed it. :troll:


https://goo.gl/maps/C9MGiLmYNQ82

Is this some sort of border cairn or something totally unconnected.


----------



## Verso

^^ I was thinking the same thing a while ago, but it's unconnected. If you follow the road, there are several such monuments along it. Each one has a big letter on the ground and together they form text "POT V ŽIVLJENJE", meaning "path into life", apparently something Christian since there're crosses everywhere.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> ^^ I was thinking the same thing a while ago, but it's unconnected. If you follow the road, there are several such monuments along it. Each one has a big letter on the ground and together they form text "POT V ŽIVLJENJE", meaning "path into life", apparently something Christian since there're crosses everywhere.


Maybe this Christian thing?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stations_of_the_Cross


----------



## Verso

^ Yes, it is actually. It's about a local priest who was killed in WWII, comparing him to Jesus.

https://www.google.si/url?sa=t&rct=...ET.ppt&usg=AFQjCNEuoauBR1V90BSswe6ZDMv330P_uw


----------



## Christophorus

Sorry, no pics from me, just Streetview...

https://goo.gl/maps/27rpPmoHqtw

Probably an alternative, but only for the braves, when Macelj-Gruškovje is overcrowded...

Took that crossing lately, what was interesting, on croatian side the b/c was empty, no one there. Only two guards on the slovenian side, no croats anywhere.


----------



## Ingenioren

Unmarked pedestrian crossing to Sweden:


Small farm-crossing has been blocked by a rock and a "snowplow-stick":


----------



## Proof Sheet

alserrod said:


> Is route 62 inside Croatia always?
> https://www.google.pl/maps/dir/45.1....4595412,559m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0?hl=pl
> 
> If so, seems to be quite easy to cross the border and someone helps you to keep on by car


I think this is where the actual border is. I think Google Maps are a bit offset on the actual border line

https://goo.gl/maps/HFyKJjfrYzQ2


----------



## alserrod

I could glance those "booths" (quite weird indeed), and somewhere there is a borderstone.... bur regarding route 62 seems quite easy to approach the border and someone can pick you up and carry on....


----------



## Proof Sheet

alserrod said:


> I could glance those "booths" (quite weird indeed), and somewhere there is a borderstone.... bur regarding route 62 seems quite easy to approach the border and someone can pick you up and carry on....


I think this may be a 'borderstone'.

https://goo.gl/maps/kExEh4BqD2A2


----------



## darko06

alserrod said:


> Is route 62 inside Croatia always?
> https://www.google.pl/maps/dir/45.1....4595412,559m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0?hl=pl
> 
> If so, seems to be quite easy to cross the border and someone helps you to keep on by car


Well, you should ask that deceased Field Marshall Tito. His government approved plans of road development when this road was build in early 1970s. The border itself is just about two hundred and fifty years older: namely from the Great War between Venice, Austria and Turkey at the beginning of eighteenth century.

By the way, when I visited Barcelona in the year 1989, I go to the Wax Museum there. And guess what: in the room with other authoritarian politicians, the wax bust of deceased Field Marshall Tito was exposed there. Wise choice.


----------



## alserrod

Haven't been in the Barcelona wax museum, sorry.

I asked because look at how easy is to cross border from here
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.9604...4!1sBAcWCq1NRr989bKz0OyslQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

left shoulder is France..... but it is a Schengen border


----------



## Palance

alserrod said:


> Is route 62 inside Croatia always?
> https://www.google.pl/maps/dir/45.1....4595412,559m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0?hl=pl


It's enterely within Croatia. I have driven here some years ago. There is only one side road towards BIH, and there is a small border crossing.




Proof Sheet said:


> I think this may be a 'borderstone'.


I doubt it. It looks quite old for such a new border, and I have never seen border stones between HR and BIH. It might be an old one, but I don't think it's a BIH/HR border stone.


----------



## GROBIN

This is not the border crossing between Eišiškės (LT) and Raduń (Радунь - BY) which is Southeastwards from the village of Eišiškės. This is the border on the Southwestern part of the village, as seen from Raubiškių gatvė. Only half a kilometer from the border line. However, you can see VERY well the village of Roŭbiški (Ро́ўбішкі) on the "wrong" side of the Iron Curtain! Sorry that this time I couldn't get closer because of one of my passengers (she had forgotten her documents in Vilnius ...)

































Reverse view, towards the village of Eišiškės. 
A bit OT: Don't be surprised to hear more Polish than Lithuanian if you ever put your feet here! :lol: However, you will find more Russian beers than Lithuanian ones if you stop by at the village center for a kebab. Strangely, no Belarusian beer (despite Belarus is merely 1,5km from there), but there is one Polish beer


----------



## VITORIA MAN

and-f border in pas de la casa 

in 1944








https://www.diagonalperiodico.net/sites/default/files/pas_de_la_casa_16_enero_44_1.jpg











http://charlescamberoque.h.c.f.unblog.fr/files/2013/11/andorre-frontiere-pas-de-la.gif

1958








http://charlescamberoque.h.c.f.unblog.fr/files/2013/11/pas-de-la-case1958-andorre.gif



*f-e* hendaye








http://www.ak-ansichtskarten.de/sho...gnole-au-Pont-International-d-Irun-Grenze.jpg

















http://recurut.eu/images/phocagalle...ilitares-nazis-en-el-puente-internacional.jpg


----------



## VITORIA MAN

former border in montreux chateau (f - d )









http://images-00.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/082/791/044_001.jpg?v=1










http://images-02.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/381/691/375_001.jpg









http://images-02.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/298/064/368_001.jpg


----------



## VITORIA MAN

le perthus , f-e border








http://cloud1.todocoleccion.net/postales-girona/tc/2016/06/12/17/57412012.jpg










http://images-00.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/368/430/194_001.jpg?v=2









http://images-00.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/357/380/285_001.jpg









http://lou.gabel.free.fr/images/LePerthus/LP31.jpg









https://sites.google.com/site/labouchecparoussillon/_/rsrc/1414175483686/home/66 Albères 01.jpg


----------



## VITORIA MAN

and during the spanish civil war exode








http://a403.idata.over-blog.com/3/26/36/77/Retirada/06-le-perthus-afflux-des-republicains.jpg









http://www.publico.es/files/article...bdad151bbf3.r_1455637432524.0-201-932-681.jpg

and when the franco's army arrived at the border








http://cloud2.todocoleccion.net/postales-guerra-civil-espanola/tc/2014/02/15/11/41599827.jpg


----------



## VITORIA MAN

during the II world war








http://i12.servimg.com/u/f12/12/72/08/69/archiv15.jpg









http://i12.servimg.com/u/f12/12/72/08/69/archiv14.jpg









http://i14.servimg.com/u/f14/15/10/39/48/le_per11.jpg









http://i14.servimg.com/u/f14/15/10/39/48/le_per10.jpg


----------



## VITORIA MAN

https://wanderinggenealogist.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/gibraltar-gates-to-spain.jpg









http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kTczepo2Z...lkx5_0/s1600/1930s+-+Camino++a+Gibraltar+.jpg









http://cloud1.todocoleccion.net/postales-cadiz/tc/2016/04/28/20/56490115.jpg









http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HMspexFkp...NAQ/uegSPMTDDyI/s1600/1952+-+Four+Corners.jpg


----------



## VITORIA MAN

....








http://cloud2.todocoleccion.net/postales-cadiz/tc/2015/04/17/21/48924501.jpg









http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SDR1ETOvSWA/TupA_Uu0YMI/AAAAAAAAAMo/v45ZQaPXTwE/s1600/campo-neutral-3.jpg









http://www.newstatesman.com/sites/d...ing_in_daily_to_work_in_gib.jpg?itok=x8Qlc0ux


----------



## VITORIA MAN

E-F border in cerberes








http://images-02.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/307/470/085_001.jpg









http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/51807757jj.jpg











http://images-02.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/160/531/286_003.jpg










https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/97/98/9f/97989fe1b836be394f89d5f038c2c614.jpg


----------



## VITORIA MAN

http://images.delcampe.com/img_large/auction/000/200/553/884_001.jpg

portalet , f-e


----------



## VITORIA MAN

http://images-02.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/255/910/882_001.jpg
le perthus


----------



## VITORIA MAN

portbou during the civil war








http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KBD-Nq2zP...536_825356160879809_3412192106240681406_n.png











http://lh3.ggpht.com/_KKTCT60suEU/TaM5RF6HeMI/AAAAAAAADhY/-25A8IrnMDk/exili.jpg?imgmax=640



spanish national troops arrival at the border 








http://cloud2.todocoleccion.net/postales-militares/tc/2010/11/12/22717289.jpg


----------



## VITORIA MAN

andorra-spain
http://images-01.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/139/318/440_001.jpg


----------



## VITORIA MAN

somport 









https://sites.google.com/site/pyrenees64cpa/_/rsrc/1467123295168/home/64-urdos/64 Aspe 54.jpg









http://cloud1.todocoleccion.net/postales-huesca/tc/2016/03/04/11/54817175.jpg









http://images-01.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/373/195/161_001.jpg

urdos








http://images-00.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/264/270/689_001.jpg









http://www.nevasport.com/fotos/270415/622388.jpg









http://images.delcampe.com/img_large/auction/000/160/531/286_004.jpg


----------



## VITORIA MAN

behobie (e-f)








http://images.delcampe.com/img_large/auction/000/341/092/000_001.jpg









http://images.delcampe.com/img_large/auction/000/341/092/253_001.jpg









http://images.delcampe.com/img_large/auction/000/341/091/494_001.jpg?v=2


----------



## VITORIA MAN

.....
spanish side








http://images-02.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/370/151/080_001.jpg

french side








http://images-02.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/175/638/901_001.jpg


----------



## VITORIA MAN

dancharia , e-f










http://images.delcampe.com/img_large/auction/000/373/646/144_001.jpg?v=1









http://images.delcampe.com/img_large/auction/000/291/755/952_001.jpg









http://images-01.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/348/139/917_001.jpg


----------



## nenea_hartia

This is a somehow remote external EU border crossing, situated on Danube river at *Porțile de Fier II / Đerdap II / Iron Gate II*. Unlike Iron Gate I, which directly connects the Romanian and Serbian banks, Iron Gate II is a link between the Serbian bank and the Romanian island of Ostrovu Mare. 
During the communism, this border crossing was open only to people living in its vicinity. Afterwards it has been closed for many years and no reason for the closure was provided by the two governments. The crossing has been reopened only few years ago and it is mainly used by the Romanians searching for cheaper cigarettes and booze in the Serbian town of Negotin. Since the closest decent Romanian town, Turnu Severin, is about 80 km away, very few Serbians are crossing through it, preferring Iron Gate I instead.

The official way to access the border crossing from Romania is the national road DN56B, but I used a shortcut, a former agricultural road which is now being paved:










This is a bridge connecting the Romanian bank and the island of Ostrovu Mare over Gogoșu fork of the Danube. The maximum allowable weight of the vehicles crossing this bridge is 3,5 t:




























The building on the left is the Romanian border post. Everything is in very bad shape, but the premises are under a general yet slow refurbishment. Since this is an external EU border, both border policemen and customs officers are present.


----------



## nenea_hartia

We are now crossing into Serbia using the road built on the dam of Iron Gate II hydro-power station.





































This is the Serbian border post. As you see, the pavement is very bad. What you don't see, the automatic boom barrier was not working and a customs officer had to push it manually. Also, on both sides of the border is full of stray dogs. The Serbian ones looked better. :lol:
Yet, the Serbian border policemen and customs officers were nice and spoke decent Romanian.










This is the Serbian road to Negotin:


----------



## nenea_hartia

And this is my way back from Serbia to Romania:


----------



## nenea_hartia




----------



## Zagor666

Now that is realy a interessting and unusual border crossing :cheers:


----------



## alserrod

Zagor666 said:


> Now that is realy a interessting and unusual border crossing :cheers:


Look at this damn.....

https://www.google.es/maps/@39.6627834,-7.5302369,2362m/data=!3m1!1e3

Even it is not a border crossing. 
and, in addition, both rivers are binational in that area, and there are no border crossings around. 

Main damn area is in Spanish side and both shoulders in Portuguese side.

It would be able to cross on foot but not able by car.



(it is in the corner of the corner of both countries), few people live around it.


----------



## Suburbanist

Spanish and Portuguese borders have been very stable for many centuries, an exception compared to other stuff going on in Europe.


----------



## Verso

^ That's because Portugal is at the end of Europe. Where could Spaniards push them, in the ocean?


----------



## Palance

nenea_hartia said:


> Yet, the Serbian border policemen and customs officers were nice and spoke decent Romanian.


Wondering about this: Do policemen and/or custom officers always speak the language from 'the other side' of the border? It would be much easier to do so for travellers, but somehow I can imagine that not all officers speak the 'other' language. I wonder how travellers communicate with officers. 

At the borders within former Yugoslavia it won't be a big problem, but do all Serbian officers at the Romanian border speak Romanian, and all Romanian officers speak Serbian? And what about Hungary-Ukraine? Or, let's say, Russia-China?


----------



## x-type

Palance said:


> Wondering about this: Do policemen and/or custom officers always speak the language from 'the other side' of the border? It would be much easier to do so for travellers, but somehow I can imagine that not all officers speak the 'other' language. I wonder how travellers communicate with officers.
> 
> At the borders within former Yugoslavia it won't be a big problem, but do all Serbian officers at the Romanian border speak Romanian, and all Romanian officers speak Serbian? And what about Hungary-Ukraine? Or, let's say, Russia-China?


HR-H - no way. i mean, who could lear Hungarian at all?  it is difficult language, and border officers speak lousy even english. 
on the other side, older Hungarian officers speak some basic Croatian from the days when hords of Croats went to cheap shopping to border area in Hungary. everyone between border and Nagykanizsa and Nagyatad spoke Croatian.


----------



## cinxxx

Isn't there Hungarian minority in Croatia and Slovenia?
When I was in Varazdin I heard a lot of Hungarian spoken...

Crossing from Romania into Hungary or Serbia they seemed to speak basic Romanian to get by with the drivers.
Also there is Romanian minority in neighboring villages in Serbia, no chance of English speakers, but I could get some directions on Romanian.


----------



## x-type

cinxxx said:


> Isn't there Hungarian minority in Croatia and Slovenia?
> When I was in Varazdin I heard a lot of Hungarian spoken...
> 
> Crossing from Romania into Hungary or Serbia they seemed to speak basic Romanian to get by with the drivers.
> Also there is Romanian minority in neighboring villages in Serbia, no chance of English speakers, but I could get some directions on Romanian.


there is, but not in the border area :lol: at least in Croatia, Hungarian villages are more far from the border. I don't know for Slovenia.


----------



## Palance

In 1996, a Dutch TV programme was made about the former High way of brotherhood and unity in former Yugoslavia (I don't think it can be seen from other countries, but you could always try: here )

3 stills from that video at the Croatian-Serbian border at Batrovci/Bajakovo from the Croatian side.Location nowadays


----------



## italystf

^^ Yes, it can be seen from abroad.


----------



## Verso

cinxxx said:


> Isn't there Hungarian minority in Croatia and *Slovenia*?


In Lend(a)va and around.


----------



## italystf

Israel/Palestine


----------



## Tachi

Palance said:


> In 1996, a Dutch TV programme was made about the former High way of brotherhood and unity in former Yugoslavia (I don't think it can be seen from other countries, but you could always try: here )


Pictures taken by me from the E70 in September 2001

1. This building looks similar to the one in 22:07, but I'm not sure if it is the same. The roof seems different.









2. Dutch armoured SFOR vehicles probably on transport to the Netherlands.









3. Entering Zagreb (location). These signs with the gantry do not exist any more, but the gantry in the opposite direction announcing the toll plaza does still exist.









4. Rest area near Zagreb (location).


----------



## abdeka

Long wait for algerians entering Tunisia today in El Tarf province (Algeria)


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> :lol:


I don't get it. Is this a pokemon?


----------



## Tachi

Phew. I'm not the only one


----------



## haddockman

I noticed a Romanian "Politia de Fronteria" in Ruse, Bulgaria the other morning. Is this a regular occurrence?


----------



## aubergine72

^^

On the other side of the bridge - yes. In the city itself - no.


----------



## marcoelrex

hello ,here is a video of usa - mexico border , from reynosa tamaulipas mexico to mission texas usa .
aprox .crossing time : 30 minutes


----------



## marcoelrex

this video is from Mission usa to Reynosa mexico , using another bridge . we have 4 international bridges in our metropolitan areas .


----------



## haddockman

aubergine72 said:


> ^^
> 
> On the other side of the bridge - yes. In the city itself - no.


This was within the city.


----------



## aubergine72

^^

Unusual.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ They wanted a tasty Bulgarian lunch


----------



## cinxxx

*Germany (Bavaria) -Austria (Tirol) at ~2300m*


----------



## YU-AMC

It seems quite logical to me. Hungary is in decent part of the World where the borders in Southern Serbia are more or less the war zones. I am fairly sure that most tourists would fly into Budapest and explore Serbia later on. 




Festin said:


> I have yet to meet a serbian police officers that speaks english in their southern borders. There are probably those that speak and understand it but for some reason they keep talking in serbian. Unlogical and not effective at all.
> While they always seem to speak in English in their northern borders. Also a lot more nice and pleasant people.
> 
> When you enter Hungary from Serbia they also seem to use more serbian than english.
> I can understand it if it is a small border crossing or if there is not much tranzit traffic. But when it is mainly tranzit traffic they really should use english if there is any need to communicate.
> 
> 
> Overall a good trip and it will probably be wise to skip Czech Republic if possible until most of the road contructions is over. After that you will have really nice motorway.


----------



## Eulanthe

Anyone know if the old border crossing at Spielfeld/Šentilj is still being used by migrants, or has it returned to normal?

On my way through there and I'd like to do some more exploring if possible...


----------



## Verso

Which migrants? The Balkan migrant route has been closed for months.


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Can you please tell this also to the Austrian and German border police? They keep annoying people driving on the motorways with so-called-border-controls-which-anybody-can-avoid-without-any-stress.


----------



## Verso

Austria has de facto exited the Schengen Area.


----------



## devo

<IMHO>
Controls are for those who can point and say "Look, we are doing something". 
Schengen has been effective for 21 years, let's not draw conclusions from the last years.
</IMHO>


----------



## Eulanthe

bogdymol said:


> ^^ Can you please tell this also to the Austrian and German border police? They keep annoying people driving on the motorways with so-called-border-controls-which-anybody-can-avoid-without-any-stress.


There's a mess at Nickelsdorf right now, that's why I was wondering about Spielfeld/Sentilj.


----------



## bogdymol

^^ I drive to Romania and back about once every month. On the last 5 occasions the border at Nickelsdorf on A4/M1 was always packed with cars waiting in a long queue for the so-called "control". As I do not want to spend 1 hour of start-and-stop, I used Google Traffic to see how's the traffic around and used this options:
- 2 times I crossed the border on the old parallel road; there was a policeman present at the border but didn't stop any car, he was just looking -> no lost time
- when also the old road was full, I used this alternative through Slovakia (I didn't go on the motorway in Slovakia as I didn't want to buy a vignette for less than 10 km). Although I drove on this option 3 times already, I haven't seen yet any police car or police officer in either Hungary, Slovakia or Austria checking or at least look at the traffic on this entire stretch of road.

Therefore, if you really have something to hide, you find a way of bypassing the so-called-border-checks which are really annoying if you travel a lot since they are not very productive.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> I don't get it. Is this a pokemon?


Yes. It's related to Pokemon Go game.


----------



## Corvinus

Yesterday's border crossing snapshot: Battonya (H) -> Turnu/Tornya (RO), looking back towards Battonya.

Got out after the crossing just to discover that the Rovinieta cannot be purchased anymore at the border. One has to proceed to the first petrol station to get it.


----------



## bogdymol

You can buy that online, no need to stop somewhere to purchase it. 

Anyway, great choice to use that crossing instead the Nadlac border which is always crowded. Turnu border crossing was almost free everytime when I crossed it.


----------



## piotr71

Huge traffic disruption at Thursday on the entry to Calais ferry port, caused by refuges trying to break in to the lorries. Expressway heading car ferry terminal was blocked for couple of hours that afternoon. Luckily, not many had chosen "old road" through town centre, which was completely clear. When I got to the terminal, it was deserted, as never before. Even custom officers, aware of the problems, were surprised how I arrived on time.

A16 motorway, just before spur connecting with the terminal.


Refuges failed to break in the lorry on hard shoulder. Driver (lady) making checks inside the trailer.




Small goup of people walking alongside motorway.




[url=https://flic.kr/p/KTGzry]

Some of them jumped on central reservation.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> Austria has de facto exited the Schengen Area.


Looks like it. I crossed at the Ljubelj Pass into Slovenia, and they were checking almost every single car, including those with A plates. They were also working on renovation work inside the old border offices, and they had rigged up power to the... I don't know how to call it, the booths? It looks like these controls are here to stay for the time being.

My car appeared to be overheating, so I had to stop at the Austrian border to examine the problem. Wasn't any problem at all, just my car didn't particularly like the brutal climb up there. There was the nice side benefit of watching what was going on.


----------



## piotr71

^^
I have experienced quite detailed checks and seen armoured military vehicle on the SLO/A border in Mureck, couple of weeks ago.


----------



## devo

Wouldn't these controls have an effect on the economy? 
(both because they cost money and because of the traffic they impair)
How long can they defend keeping the booths running if the migrant crisis is trickeling down?
Doesn't these measurements cost the tax payer of Austria lots of money? 

These controls would have been great to have last year, when the situation was completely out of control. Now, it seems to be a great hassle that people will start asking questions about.


----------



## italystf

devo said:


> Wouldn't these controls have an effect on the economy?
> (both because they cost money and because of the traffic they impair)
> How long can they defend keeping the booths running if the migrant crisis is trickeling down?
> Doesn't these measurements cost the tax payer of Austria lots of money?
> 
> These controls would have been great to have last year, when the situation was completely out of control. Now, it seems to be a great hassle that people will start asking questions about.


Whether Austria will leave Schengen Area or not will probably be known after next elections...


----------



## MichiH

Verso said:


> Which migrants? The Balkan migrant route has been closed for months.


Nevertheless, more than 2,000 migrants (illegally) crossed the Austrian-German border in August 2016. Source.

Generally, 4,200 migrants illegally came to Germany in August 2016. Source.

These are official figures, in reality, the number is higher.

It's reported that more and more immigrants travel from Italy to Germany via Switzerland because of the controls at the Italian/Austrian and Austrian/German borders. That means, the controls "work"...


----------



## Eulanthe

devo said:


> Wouldn't these controls have an effect on the economy?
> (both because they cost money and because of the traffic they impair)
> How long can they defend keeping the booths running if the migrant crisis is trickeling down?
> Doesn't these measurements cost the tax payer of Austria lots of money?


From what I can see, the controls are rather similar to what the original idea of Schengen was, with the booths manned but only certain cars stopped and questioned, and only some of them having to produce ID.

If Schengen does fall, it's not a bad idea for border controls within the EU. Traffic was moving pretty quickly, and they weren't wasting time on pointless controls.

Incidentally, I crossed the border at Metlika/Jurovski Brod (SLO/HR) - they couldn't have been less interested. Took about 10 seconds to pass both Slovenian exit controls and Croatian entry controls. Interestingly, the old Croatian controls have been completely bypassed and traffic uses what appears to have been the old road before the new controls were built at Jurovski Brod.


----------



## Attus

MichiH said:


> Nevertheless, more than 2,000 migrants (illegally) crossed the Austrian-German border in August 2016. Source.
> 
> Generally, 4,200 migrants illegally came to Germany in August 2016. Source.
> 
> These are official figures, in reality, the number is higher.


There were more than that in September and October 2015 - DAILY. The current figures are approximately 98% less than those of Sep-Oct last year.


----------



## Fatfield

And now we have The Calais Wall.

http://news.sky.com/story/uk-to-build-13ft-high-wall-to-contain-migrants-at-calais-10568369


----------



## Verso

The UK will build a wall in France? I guess France is totally incapable of doing anything about illegals attacking trucks. icard:


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> The UK will build a wall in France? I guess France is totally incapable of doing anything about illegals attacking trucks. icard:


I think there'a a lot to say about French security forces. How the hell can police let a big truck through a pedestrian area during a civil festivity without even asking for transport documents and/or inspecting the cargo? hno:


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> The UK will build a wall in France? I guess France is totally incapable of doing anything about illegals attacking trucks. icard:


It's just such nonsense. The French are completely incapable of dealing with it - and now we have the situation that they're simply moving the problem further down the Rocade towards the A16.

I'm absolutely not conservative in political thinking, yet I see the constant attacks on trucks and I wonder when it's going to end in some truck driver killing many of them.


----------



## pai nosso

*Portugal (Vila Nova de Cerveira ) /Spain (Tomiño) – September of 2016*


Source: pai nosso


----------



## Eulanthe

A new border fence between Slovenia and Croatia.

http://www.thetowner.com/bregana/

If you look at the article, you'll find that the border crossing in Bregana next to the infamous border restaurant now has some sort of fence with a door in it. Why on earth? There was a police box on the Croatian side that was manned up until Croatia joined the EU - who built this fence, and for what purpose?


----------



## Corvinus

September 2016: shot these pics of the German border control installation of the Salzburg -> A8 motorway crossing.

On the left lane, there were no control-related jams forming, but those started little later due to general traffic overload on A8.


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> A new border fence between Slovenia and Croatia.
> 
> http://www.thetowner.com/bregana/
> 
> If you look at the article, you'll find that the border crossing in Bregana next to the infamous border restaurant now has some sort of fence with a door in it. Why on earth? There was a police box on the Croatian side that was manned up until Croatia joined the EU - who built this fence, and for what purpose?


It was built by Slovenia to stop migrants from the Middle East.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> It was built by Slovenia to stop migrants from the Middle East.


Absolutely crazy that Bregana was so open, even after Slovenia joined the EU and Croatia didn't - and now Croatia is in the EU and Bregana becomes a fortress. 

Is this fence just around Bregana, or is it elsewhere?


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## Gyorgy

Verso said:


> It was built by Slovenia to stop migrants from the Middle East.


And it was a popular crossing:


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## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> Absolutely crazy that Bregana was so open, even after Slovenia joined the EU and Croatia didn't - and now Croatia is in the EU and Bregana becomes a fortress.
> 
> Is this fence just around Bregana, or is it elsewhere?


Elsewhere is just barbed wire without a fence, AFAIK.



After 3.5 years you can again take a cable car from Slovenia (Bovec) to Italy (Sella Nevea):









http://www.boveckanin.si/images/background/Bovec_Kanin_Gondola.jpg









http://www.primorski.it/stories/alpejadran/83363_kanin_in_canin/#.V9LKjzX3PPY









https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/76882904


----------



## Augusto

alserrod said:


> In Spain I would state that more than 90% do not speak other country language. (or more)
> 
> I know an officer who was in passport control but in a little airport with mainly holiday low-cost flights. He said he just checked passports and never had problems there. It wasn't the typical airport to have problems in customs. He speaks a poor English and said...enough to ask passport, stamp (if required, not mandatory) and say good by.
> 
> In other main airports there are officers who speak several languages, but only in main one and not for passport control but for special checks or issues.
> 
> In other customs
> 
> - Morocco. 100% sure, no one will speak Arabic. Maybe some words of French but surely nothing of Arabic


Come on! I'm sure that they do speak dialectal arabic or even berberian at least in Mellila and Ceuta.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> Elsewhere is just barbed wire without a fence, AFAIK.


http://thefunambulist.net/2016/02/26/fortress-schengen-report-of-the-wall-as-a-spectacular-rumor/

Just realised now - I took a picture of the fence in Metlika, but I thought it was an old fence, not a new one. Photos will come when I get back (and if my baby behaves, I'll get photos of the old crossing in Macelj too).


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## Verso

Former Slovenian customs office building between Nova Gorica (SLO) and Gorizia (I) turns into a cultural center:









http://www.rtvslo.si/kultura/drugo/carinarnica-kulturno-in-medmestno-sticisce-med-goricama/402802


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## italystf

Some scenes of the Italy-Yugoslavia border in the 70s/80s (last part of the video has more recent scenes)


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## Ingenioren

Interesting from the Kyrgyz Kazakh border, the A365 crosses the river Tsju for a kilometer, appears this is into Kazakhstan, there is a border marker the opposite side of the road - so the gas station is maybe some Martelange situation? 

https://www.google.no/maps/@42.8792...vjclwCt20FXAku4nMniw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=no

Also, there is a barb wire fence is kind of strange for two friendly countries...


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## alserrod

Weird. It seems like green door in the petrol station is a border pass or so
lol!!


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## Verso

Ingenioren said:


> Interesting from the Kyrgyz Kazakh border, the A365 crosses the river *Tsju* for a kilometer


I knew this was in Norwegian. :lol: It's called Chu in English.


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## Boltzman

Don't trust borders in Google maps, they're often placed wrong.

I consider Openstreetmap to be much more exact - and according to this site, both the motorway and the petrol station are on Kyrgyz soil:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/42.87853/75.16076


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## Verso

Perhaps the river is the border.

PS: notice resort "Hawaii" to the southeast


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## x-type

Boltzman said:


> Don't trust borders in Google maps, they're often placed wrong.
> 
> I consider Openstreetmap to be much more exact - and according to this site, both the motorway and the petrol station are on Kyrgyz soil:
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/42.87853/75.16076


no, this really is as border line as shown on google maps. look at this sign, it says "end of the transit zone". also, in other direction just after the bridge you will find the same. (weird is that there ie no sign for "beginning of the transit zone")

https://www.google.no/maps/@42.8796...xxSdWV_m0K6C5iSR4cVw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=no


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## Eulanthe

Ingenioren said:


> Also, there is a barb wire fence is kind of strange for two friendly countries...


Like between Slovenia and Croatia today, or what used to exist on the PL-D border until 2007?


----------



## pai nosso

From the Brazilian forum:


*Brazil / Guyana*



jvitor2012 said:


> *Lethem fica localizada no sudoeste da Guiana, país que faz fronteira com o Brasil em Roraima.
> 
> 
> Location: click here
> 
> 
> 
> 7. Arriving at the border, brazilian customs:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8. Tacutu River:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 9. Guiana Mountains:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10. Bridge:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 11. Arriving at the border crossroads:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 12. The viaduct and the tunnel, making the change of lanes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 13.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 14. Guyana customs:
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 15.
> 
> 
> 
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> ​*


*
Photos by jvitor2012​*


----------



## pai nosso

*Portugal (Portela do Homem) / Spain*


See Location


October of 2016

1-


2-Old Portuguese Customs


3-Old Spanish Customs


4-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## pai nosso

*Portugal (Lindoso) / Spain*


See Location


October of 2016

1-Portuguese border


2-Old portuguese customs

Source: pai nosso


----------



## adam79

*East Germany / DDR *

Here is an example of some complicated border crossing with DDR (East Germany) with separate lanes for transit and non-transit traffic.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BMHexrHj179/?taken-by=roadsignspot


----------



## alserrod

Why "transit"?


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ who in their right mind would want to visit DDR? 
But mostly because of DDR-BRD agreements for simplified (but not simple!) BRD - Westberlin traffic...


----------



## AsHalt

alserrod said:


> Why "transit"?


I guess Berlin... Since it's in the middle of the communist land...


----------



## Attus

alserrod said:


> Why "transit"?


Between 1949-1989 there was a special agreement about traffic between West Germany and West Berlin through the GDR. There were some motorways designed for that traffic, for travellers was strictly forbidden to leave them. Border check was minimal. Stopping during the travel through the GDR in order to meet East German citizens was strictly forbidden as well. 
That kind of traffic was called Transitverkehr (= transit traffic).


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## Attus

Austrian police erected a building?, tent? at Hegyeshalom. Cars must drive through that. Border checks are now possible even in rainy wheather without policemen being wet.


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## Corvinus

AsHalt said:


> I guess Berlin... Since it's in the middle of the communist land...


However, you had to watch your wording when responding to East German border personnel. It wasn't simply "Berlin", but either "Westberlin", or "Berlin, Hauptstadt der DDR" ...


----------



## Verso

Was there also a special (more relaxed) regime for transit to Poland and Czechoslovakia or not? (I'm asking because it also says "Transit VR Polen, ČSSR")


----------



## EconLinkEU

Are they actually doing border check at Hegyeshalom? That's a bit odd...


----------



## MattiG

Attus said:


> Between 1949-1989 there was a special agreement about traffic between West Germany and West Berlin through the GDR. There were some motorways designed for that traffic, for travellers was strictly forbidden to leave them. Border check was minimal. Stopping during the travel through the GDR in order to meet East German citizens was strictly forbidden as well.
> That kind of traffic was called Transitverkehr (= transit traffic).


Most the border connections were closed about in 1952 when DDR gradually begun to regulate travelling more strictly. Initially, there were three air corridors, three road corridors, two rail corridors and two river ones available. In addition, there were a few roads crossings for freight traffic only. Later on, the regulation was slightly relieved in 1970's.

There were some interesting rules to obey: For example, Lufthansa was banned from flying to West Berlin until the reunification took place. Instead, the flights between West Germany and West Berlin were served mainly by PanAm, BA and AF. 

Another rule was for the foreignes: The return from East Berlin to West Berlin had to take place over the same checkpoint as the entry to East Berlin.

DDR made some one-to-one visa-exemption agreements with third countries. Finland was one of them. As the agreement was in effect in Jan 1, 1989, it did not live long. Anyway, I was in West Berlin in spring 1989 for business reasons. As I did not need a visa to enter DDR, I was allowed to leave the West in Friedrichstrasse and return at Checkpoint Charlie. In addition, I did not need to buy 20 Ostmarks for 20 D-Marks. A lady in front of me at passport check queue held a diplomatic passport. She tried to avoid that transaction, but without success. She looked quite upset when noticing me to cross to border with virtually no formalities.


----------



## haddockman

What other countries had visa exemptions to visit the DDR?


----------



## AsHalt

^^ I think most of the USSR close "allies" and old friends


----------



## Eulanthe

Attus said:


> Between 1949-1989 there was a special agreement about traffic between West Germany and West Berlin through the GDR. There were some motorways designed for that traffic, for travellers was strictly forbidden to leave them. Border check was minimal. Stopping during the travel through the GDR in order to meet East German citizens was strictly forbidden as well.
> That kind of traffic was called Transitverkehr (= transit traffic).


Border checks weren't minimal, as full checks were still conducted. The difference was that a transit visa was granted at the border after their introduction in the late 1960's, and that the transit visa fees were paid for by the BRD after a certain date (I forget which it was, 1970-something?). You were timed between border crossings, and if you were too fast between them, you were fined. You could stop at designed rest areas, which had duty free shops/petrol stations/etc, with only hard currency accepted and they were staffed by Stasi workers. East Germans using these motorways couldn't stop at these service areas.

But border checks were still thorough on the DDR side, while the BRD conducted customs controls and (sometimes) identity controls. They definitely weren't minimal checks on the DDR side - the only thing was simplified customs controls.

While there were no physical barriers preventing you from leaving the transit autobahns, if you were caught doing so, you would be heavily fined. You were also exempt from the mandatory currency exchange.

About transit traffic to Czechoslovakia/Poland/etc - as far as I know, you were required to obtain a transit visa in advance, but you were exempt from the currency exchange rules. Where it got really strange was how Poland handled visas after the change of government there - Westerners were obliged to get one, but you could simply buy it from places along the transit route to Frankfurt (Oder) - it was simply a source of hard currency, nothing more.

[quote="MattiG] There were some interesting rules to obey: For example, Lufthansa was banned from flying to West Berlin until the reunification took place. Instead, the flights between West Germany and West Berlin were served mainly by PanAm, BA and AF. [/quote]

Yes, because Berlin was still under theoretical Four Power control under the Four Power Agreement, German airlines were banned from flying there. That's why Schoenfeld was developed outside of Berlin, as the DDR national airline Interflug could fly there freely. West Berliners would often use Schoenfeld for cheap package holidays after the normalisation of BRD-DDR relations in the 1970's.


----------



## alserrod

Attus said:


> Between 1949-1989 there was a special agreement about traffic between West Germany and West Berlin through the GDR. There were some motorways designed for that traffic, for travellers was strictly forbidden to leave them. Border check was minimal. Stopping during the travel through the GDR in order to meet East German citizens was strictly forbidden as well.
> That kind of traffic was called Transitverkehr (= transit traffic).


Thx 



Which was exactly motorway?. Which added exits does it have now?

(I guess full fuel tank was compulsory to be in transit)


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## alserrod

This is Bielsa-Aragnouet tunnel from French side











Children from schools in both sides of the border had the chance to participate in awards about photo and painting.


This is winner photo












but for painting, as you can see, first category wasn't for elderly people at all!!!

http://www.aragonhoy.net/index.php/mod.noticias/mem.detalle/id.188760#29-10-2016


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## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> Thx
> 
> Which was exactly motorway?. Which added exits does it have now?
> 
> (I guess full fuel tank was compulsory to be in transit)


Here's the list : https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans...ellen_und_Verkehrswege_im_Stra.C3.9Fenverkehr

And no, there was no such requirement. In fact, the DDR wanted people to stop at their facilities - as they could spy on foreigners and obtain badly needed hard currency. It's hard to tell how extensive the spying was, but certainly anyone working with the public in these transit rest areas would have been associated with the Stasi in some way. I have the feeling that these rest areas also sold duty free goods for hard currency, taking advantage of the fact that the West German/West Berlin customs didn't conduct detailed checks at the border on all travellers.

I've checked, and for transit to other destinations except West Berlin/West Germany, travellers had to pay for a transit visa at the border. I think the same deal applied for those on trains that went through the DDR to onwards destinations, like the train from Berlin Zoologischer Garten to Denmark and beyond.


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## adam79

Berlin city limits - a former place of DDR/West Berlin border:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BMW9CdDjEED/?taken-by=roadsignspot


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## italystf

Hungarian-Czechoslovak border between Esztergom and Štúrovo in 1969. The bridge over Danube, bombed during WWII, wasn't rebuilt until 2001.


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## Corvinus

italystf said:


> The bridge over Danube, bombed during WWII, wasn't rebuilt until 2001.[/IMG]


And this was not only due to economic reasons, but -at least to the same extent- also to the strained relations between the two countries, despite both being in the same bloc, therefore Socialist "brother states".


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## italystf

Corvinus said:


> And this was not only due to economic reasons, but -at least to the same extent- also to the strained relations between the two countries, despite both being in the same bloc, therefore Socialist "brother states".


Because of the Gabčíkovo–Nagymaros Dams issue?


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## Eulanthe

Corvinus said:


> And this was not only due to economic reasons, but -at least to the same extent- also to the strained relations between the two countries, despite both being in the same bloc, therefore Socialist "brother states".


It's fascinating just how strained the relations were between "brothers" - Poland/East Germany had problems too, as did Hungary and Romania.

One interesting thing is that there was never any attempt to create a Schengen-style area between them - and in fact, there were plenty of physical barriers, including barbed wire fences between them.


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## italystf

Eulanthe said:


> It's fascinating just how strained the relations were between "brothers" - Poland/East Germany had problems too, as did Hungary and *Romania*.
> 
> One interesting thing is that there was never any attempt to create a Schengen-style area between them - and in fact, there were plenty of physical barriers, including barbed wire fences between them.


Romania was something different inside of the communist block. Its regime tried to remain neutral in international matters, keeping distance from Moscow and establishing normal relations with the West (for example it opposed the 1968 Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia).
However, its regime was very brutal and totalitarian, maybe even worse than the Soviet one, especially in the last years when Ceausescu became psychotic and megalomaniac and Romanians started to starve.


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## Verso

italystf said:


> Romania was something different inside of the communist block. Its regime tried to remain neutral in international matters, keeping distance from Moscow and establishing normal relations with the West *(for example it opposed the 1968 Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia)*.


Some historians argue that this was coordinated with Moscow so that Romania becomes Moscow's trojan horse in the West. Don't know if it's true.


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## Grzesiek83

border French Suisse near Cern 
<a href='https://postimg.org/image/f8qqtvmgd/' target='_blank'><img src='https://s22.postimg.org/f8qqtvmgd/P1010266.jpg' border='0' alt="P1010266"/></a><br/><br/>
<a href='https://postimg.org/image/i97laexrh/' target='_blank'><img src='https://s22.postimg.org/i97laexrh/P1010267.jpg' border='0' alt="P1010267"/></a><br/><br/>
<a href='https://postimg.org/image/lxxa9w7sd/' target='_blank'><img src='https://s22.postimg.org/lxxa9w7sd/P1010268.jpg' border='0' alt="P1010268"/></a><br/><br/>


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Forums generally use BB code for images and links, HTML doesn't work.


----------



## Eulanthe

italystf said:


> However, its regime was very brutal and totalitarian, maybe even worse than the Soviet one, especially in the last years when Ceausescu became psychotic and megalomaniac and Romanians started to starve.


I seem to remember that Romania actually fortified the Bulgarian border at one point, which shows how insane he was. Other Warsaw Pact borders (excluding ones with the Soviet Union, which had ridiculous fortifications) only had wire fences at most.

Not exactly sure where this is, but my guess is Kroscienko as the train ran in a corridor through the USSR there. It's the border between the People's Republic of Poland and the USSR.










(edit : just checked, it's Kroscienko. It wasn't open for ordinary people, so it must have been solely used by the military)










Another view.


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## italystf

Berlin, 27 years ago


----------



## Eulanthe

No border crossing there, though  The Brandenburg Gate crossing only opened on the 22nd December (I think) for pedestrians only, and only for cars after 1st July 1990. 

One very common thing that people assume is that the "wall" opened on the 9th November. The truth is that border crossings were maintained up until the very end on the 1st July 1990, while many of the bureaucratic requirements actually remained for quite a while. I think it was around Christmas 1989 before they actually allowed visa-free access for West Germans for instance.

The truly confusing time came between 01.07 and 03.10 - the East German borders were still controlled by East German border guards, yet there was a completely open border with West Germany.

Those interested in this stuff might find this interesting - http://www.worldpassportstamps.com/germany-stamp-of-entry-from-west-berlin-1989/ - it's a passport stamp from West Berlin in 1989. Unlike West Germany (where the Bundesgrenzschutz - Federal Border Guard - were responsible for border control), in West Berlin, border controls were the responsibility of the West Berlin police. They controlled all the borders to West Berlin, 

Another good example here - http://www.iwanttobemad.com/wp-content/uploads/bc17376a8eba890.jpg 

And just to add to the strangeness - East Germany wouldn't accept anything but identity cards from West Berlin residents.


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## OulaL

Well yes. Officially speaking, West Berlin was not a part of the Federal Republic: it was an occupation zone of the USA, the UK and France.


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## adam79

Polish-Soviet border as seen from the train window, 1990.










source


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## bratislav

Serbia-Hungary, Kelebija-Tompa border crossing, on 10.11.2016. Barb wire, refugees that are living in no mans land.


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## Corvinus

bratislav said:


> refugees that are living in no mans land.


I.e., migrants without required travel documents, usually heading to wealthy EU countries, waiting for a chance to get in. 
Refugees proper may apply for asylum in Hungary at designated border posts, in all legality. Compliance to the official procedures by refugees is mandated by the same convention that requires countries to offer them shelter. Allowing them to transit for reaching a cherry-picked country of destination is not mandated by any law.

Nice photos though, I am surprised nobody came up earlier with a set of SRB-H crossing pictures since the aftermath of the Sep 2015 closure. We have only had those from the media, related to the Sep 15 border attack.


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## italystf

The footbal pitch of Kostajnica is crossed by the Croatian-Bosnian border: https://www.google.it/maps/@45.2209056,16.5427261,323m/data=!3m1!1e3

Article: https://www.trollfootball.me/videos...-home-pitch-spans-across-two-countries-bosnia


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## cinxxx

^^but is that border line correct there?


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## italystf

cinxxx said:


> ^^but is that border line correct there?


Aparently it is. Here another article in English: http://www.sarajevotimes.com/?p=110432


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## haddockman

Would it not make sense for Croatia to cede that small bit of land to Bosnia?


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## Eulanthe

It doesn't appear to be correct: 

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/45.22139/16.54671

It looks like the border goes through the woods just to the north, so yes - if the ball goes out, they might have to cross the border to get it, but they clearly play within Bosnia.


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## g.spinoza

Openstreetmaps also isn't precise in borders...


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## stickedy

In this part of the world it is


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## alserrod

There is a tree line that seems to be border but if article says it.... can anyone check with accuracy?


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## adam79

Vaalimaa (Russian/Finnish border crossing)









source: https://www.instagram.com/p/BNH5dRrDVCR/?taken-by=roadsignspot


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## Eurogue

adam79 said:


> Vaalimaa (Russian/Finnish border crossing)
> 
> "Gränsövergångsttället"


Would that be Swedish? Looks very much like the German "Grenzübergangsstelle." Are the two languages really that similar or is it just a coincidence? (My German is pretty basic, so I wouldn't know.)

My first post here by the way, I've been an avid reader since 2008 though.


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## Advancer

Same family of languages. In Dutch it is called "Grensovergang"


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## riiga

The Swedish word seems to be in the definite form though, it should be "Gränsövergångsställe" without the t at the end.


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## VITORIA MAN

what a word for a spanish speaker !!! how dificult to pronounce it


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## spsofkutl

No highway between Italia and Slovenija ?


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## spsofkutl

I remember a movie in the '60 s with the border between France and Italy in the middle of the local restaurant ...


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## MattiG

riiga said:


> The Swedish word seems to be in the definite form though, it should be "Gränsövergångsställe" without the t at the end.


It seems to me that all the similar signs at FIN/RUS border display the same wording. The motivation, I guess, is that the place is the only border crossing station nearby.

(BTW, the Swedish spoken and written in Finland, Finlandssvenska, and in Sweden, Rikssvenska, are not exactly the same language. Therefore, there may be differences on how to interpret the grammar. Finlandsvenska is the minority language, and not as actively developing as in language in Sweden. In addition, it is an administrative language, and heavily subject to the influence of Finnish. That is why there are SV/SV translators, translating between Swedish Swedish and Finnish Swedish.)


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## OulaL

MattiG said:


> It seems to me that all the similar signs at FIN/RUS border display the same wording. The motivation, I guess, is that the place is the only border crossing station nearby.


Another possible explanation is that neither the persons who made the sign, their supervisors nor the persons responsible of installing the sign actually speak Swedish well enough to understand the difference between indefinite and definite forms.


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## MattiG

OulaL said:


> Another possible explanation is that neither the persons who made the sign, their supervisors nor the persons responsible of installing the sign actually speak Swedish well enough to understand the difference between indefinite and definite forms.


I do not buy that. The linguistics have recognized that Finnishswedish tends to prefer definite forms in many such cases where Swedishswedish would select an indefinite form. Thus, the wording is in line with the local interpretation of the grammar. The separation often begins with this kind of marginal things. 

BTW, I was somewhat surprised when I recently opened a few articles about the Swedish grammar. When I was in school, we were taught that there are five declinations for nouns. Now, I read that there are six ones, or five ones, or perhaps even seven ones. My old teacher would be extremely upset of such a disorder. I hope she is too old to understand that the blue book of the Swedish grammar has lost it status of being the Absolute Truth.


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## tfd543

Anyone having images of old Yugoslavian border crossings to Hungary, Greece, Albania, Romania, Austria, Bulgaria and Italy ? Which of the borders were usually congested. I imagine the western borders were popular where roads were leading to the Dalmatian coast ? Thnx


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## Singidunum

*Netherlands to grow 24.7 acres in land swap with Belgium*


----------



## italystf

Singidunum said:


> *Netherlands to grow 24.7 acres in land swap with Belgium*


Is it there?
https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=maastricht#map=14/50.8050/5.7019


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## keokiracer

^^ It is indeed south of Maastricht, however OSM has jumped the gun because OSM already shows the situation of 2018 and onwards.

Google Maps shows the current situation: https://www.google.nl/maps/@50.7897299,5.692636,5945m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1


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## Corvinus

tfd543 said:


> Anyone having images of old Yugoslavian border crossings to Hungary, Greece, Albania, Romania, Austria, Bulgaria and Italy ? Which of the borders were usually congested. I imagine the western borders were popular where roads were leading to the Dalmatian coast ? Thnx


For H - YU, there were some posted in this forum, like



italystf said:


> Hungary - Yugoslavia, 1970
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://europebylondontaxi.blogspot.it/2012/01/hungary-palic-serbia-to-szeged-hungary.html


(looking into Hungary on this one)

I don't think these crossings were overly congested, since 
1 - Hungary was not on the path of the major gastarbeiter routes back then (Turks, Yugoslavs and Greeks normally crossed from Austria into Yugoslavia)
2 - Hungarians and other East Bloc'ers could not just travel freely to Yugoslavia, they needed a travel authorization like for visiting a Western country (I don't know if a Yugoslav entry visa was also required).


----------



## CSerpent

keokiracer said:


> ^^ It is indeed south of Maastricht, however OSM has jumped the gun because OSM already shows the situation of 2018 and onwards.
> 
> Google Maps shows the current situation: https://www.google.nl/maps/@50.7897299,5.692636,5945m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1


It's quite interesting looking at the B side and the little spur of Walloon into Flanders - the little spur of French named towns and streets!


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## tfd543

Corvinus said:


> For H - YU, there were some posted in this forum, like
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (looking into Hungary on this one)
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think these crossings were overly congested, since
> 
> 1 - Hungary was not on the path of the major gastarbeiter routes back then (Turks, Yugoslavs and Greeks normally crossed from Austria into Yugoslavia)
> 
> 2 - Hungarians and other East Bloc'ers could not just travel freely to Yugoslavia, they needed a travel authorization like for visiting a Western country (I don't know if a Yugoslav entry visa was also required).



Cool. It looks like Horgos 2 border crossing. But after the federation fell, how fast were they to actually build the "walls". For instance, in the case of Slovenia they already replaced the signposts immidiately.


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## italystf

Border crossing between Kingdom of Italy and Austro-Hungarian Empire on Stelvio pass, 1881


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## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> Cool. It looks like Horgos 2 border crossing. But after the federation fell, how fast were they to actually build the "walls". For instance, in the case of Slovenia they already replaced the signposts immidiately.


This is what I've found out - but I'm not 100% on this.

Slovenia took control of the border crossings straight away, but in reality, they had been preparing for it for months. Border crossings were staffed mostly by Slovenians, while they had stopped transferring customs revenues to the central government in Belgrade a while before that. A large amount of the federal government's revenue came through the Slovenian border crossings, hence the JNA attempted to seize them as a priority. 

I don't have any information about the SLO-HR border, but from what little I know, they put police controls there pretty quickly. The actual physical crossings took a while to construct.

Croatia had huge problems - they controlled most of the Hungarian border, but because of the war, they had no effective control over their internationally-recognised borders. However, border crossings did exist between Serb-held areas, and Croatia had military/police controls on the border with the RSK. 

For instance, I've got a book that talks about the border between Croatian held territory and the RSK. Croatia effectively shrugged their shoulders if someone wanted to go into the RSK - they checked them out, and if there was no reason to detain them, they were free to go. 

The situation was always rather fluid, but no borders were actually completely closed, except the border between Croatia and Montenegro. Others were open or closed depending on local conditions - for instance, it was common after the JNA pulled out of Croatia for the RSK military to close roads and to force people to travel on dirt tracks to reach places like Knin. Whether or not you could actually go there depended a lot on who you were and if you had local contacts or not. 

What remained of Yugoslavia maintained controls with the Serb-held territories in Croatia and Bosnia, but to all practical extents, these controls were for show/controlling non-Serbs than anything else. A vast amount was smuggled into Bosnia through YU-RS checkpoints, for instance.

Likewise - the border between Croatia and the Croatian-held territories in Bosnia was very lightly controlled. Plenty was smuggled there as well, while controls were maintained for non-Croats. It's not a secret that the Bosniak forces obtained most of their supplies through Croatia, too.

As far as Yugoslav borders with Macedonia and Albania - they were opened pretty quickly and painlessly.

I've posted it elsewhere, but the most fascinating thing about that period is that at least in Sarajevo in 1994, there was at least one functioning "border crossing" between the Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina and the Republika Srpska.


----------



## tfd543

Thanks. I see. Now I get why Slovenia joined EU so fast. As for the border in Sarajevo, well they had the tunnel of hope but who would dare to use the border at Grbavica bridge ?


----------



## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> Thanks. I see. Now I get why Slovenia joined EU so fast. As for the border in Sarajevo, well they had the tunnel of hope but who would dare to use the border at Grbavica bridge ?


Yes, Slovenia was much more prepared for independence, while Croatia only really started moving towards it after the election in April-May 1990. If you look back, it's clear that Slovenia was planning it in the late 1980's under Kucan.

The border in Sarajevo is an interesting one. If you look solely at the facts on the ground, what happened was that in 1994, Republika Srpska opened up what they called a border crossing. The crossing was manned by both police and armed forces of the RS, and it was an attempt to 'normalise' the situation in Sarajevo (which, of course, was massively favourable to the RS) and gain international recognition of the facts on the ground. 

The Bosnian Army (and possibly police, but I'm not 100% certain) manned the other side of the bridge, and they were certainly denying passage to men that were able to fight in the war. 

But at that time, visits between RBiH-controlled Sarajevo and RS-controlled territory were possible at different times depending on the circumstances. There's a good article here about it - https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...f56-8289-32222adf5a4f/?utm_term=.967452513e21


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## tfd543

Heartbreaking. Its must have been like the abolishment of the DDR-BRD border. The only thing to learn from this is that freedom is priceless.


----------



## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> Heartbreaking. Its must have been like the abolishment of the DDR-BRD border. The only thing to learn from this is that freedom is priceless.


It's quite surreal to walk around Sarajevo today to see just where these crossing points were located. Most people are under the impression that the city itself was not occupied, but then if you go for a walk around Grbavica and Marijin Dvor - you realise just how close the two sides were. 

Talking more about these unrecognised borders - from my research, it's clear that most of them were kept open, at least in theory. Croatia never really stopped anyone from entering the RSK during the war there, and the RSK themselves were very open towards outsiders in the first stages of the war. It was only really after things exploded in Bosnia that it became dangerous for certain Western outsiders in Serb-held territory - but even then, there are plenty of accounts of Western journalists travelling around Serb territories by invitation of political leaders. 

It's also worth pointing out that Sarajevo was not completely closed off. The airport functioned relatively normally during the war, and Serb forces (that controlled the airport) never really stopped journalists and non-local civilians from coming and going. If you could get into Sarajevo Airport (and it wasn't difficult, just unpredictable as flights were often cancelled due to fighting nearby) - you could pass pretty freely into Sarajevo, with only really restrictions on food and military supplies being enforced by the Serbian side.

I've been hunting for a while about more information about these unrecognised border crossings, but the vast majority of the information is about the front line closest to the ex-Holiday Inn in Sarajevo, probably because that's where all the journalists stayed. But interestingly - these unofficial crossings stayed in use for quite a while post-Dayton.


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## tfd543

Crazy.... What about in Hercegovina ? Did the Croats set up any borders there ?


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## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> Crazy.... What about in Hercegovina ? Did the Croats set up any borders there ?


It's pretty tough to find information on this. The Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna was never established seriously like the Republika Srpska was, so what controls existed tended to be military controls. There doesn't seem to have been any real attempt at setting up border controls in the same way that the Republika Srpska did, anyway. 

There were some examples of Croatia trying to annex territory and set up border controls - this is one of the more well known cases - http://articles.latimes.com/1995-10-02/news/mn-52461_1_bosnian-croat-federation. 

From what I know, Croatia set up international border controls, but these controls were often simply ignored by local Croats, especially in areas where there were heavy Croat majorities on both sides of the borders. The rule seemed to be that Croats could move freely, but others were controlled. 

Probably the big difference was that the Republika Srpska was theoretically independent of Serbia, while Herceg-Bosna wanted to integrate into Croatia from the very first minute. The West also turned a blind eye to this, because they needed Croatian support to end the war.


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## Kanadzie

^^ its interesting they would set up a border between areas with heavy Croat majorities
one would think they would try to go around to encircle (annex) the Croat majority territory in their entirety. Which would probably start a war


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## Palance

I took these pictures in september. Location is Guglwald at the Austrian side if the A-CZ-border. Here is a monument about the Iron Curtain and a part of it is rebuilt at the Austrian side (the real one was at the Czech/Czechoslovak side).























































This is how the border looks now (CZ-left, A-right)









And the border crossing close to this monument

From Czech side:



















From Austrian side


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## italystf

Hungary-Yugoslavia border at Horgos in 1964









https://alumni.kcl.ac.uk/holy-land


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## italystf

Iran-USSR border in 1950s


















http://mforum.cari.com.my/forum.php?mod=viewthread&action=printable&tid=654061


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## italystf

Border between East and West Germany before the wall
https://sundayswithdaddotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/road-entering-soviet-zone.jpg
https://sundayswithdaddotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/brandenberg-gate.jpg
(large photos)


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## ahsan95

Last 5 Minutes of this Video, the Scenic HIGHEST PAVED Border Crossing in the World
Pakistan China Border ( Khunjerab Pass) at 4700 Meters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUMxsJMSM7g


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## italystf

US troops on the Italy-Austria border at Brenner pass on 15 May 1945


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## italystf

Brenner pass on 24 July 1938, when it was on the Italy-Germany border, shortly after the Anschluss


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## Palance

International public transport:

Bus stop in Vaals (NL), which is some kilometres from the only Dutch tripoint. The bus stop is a German one, and bus 396 is a line to Kelmis and Eupen in Belgium.


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## alserrod

Another bus stop just besides a border crossing...

https://www.google.es/maps/place/El...e3812dff2feaee19!8m2!3d42.4647343!4d2.8660325


In Spain, it is common to have local transport (this bus stop is for buses within cities though). In those cases I have seen some lines having last stop in the same corner where local limit ends.


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## MattiG

Palance said:


> International public transport:


There is an international local bus service at the Sweden/Finland border: The local bus lines of Haparanda have one stop in Tornio. Thus, the bus crosses the time zone twice during each round.


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## LMB

MattiG said:


> There is an international local bus service at the Sweden/Finland border: The local bus lines of Haparanda have one stop


Sorry to rain on your parade, but that's not very "integrated". There is an image a few posts above from the Aachen-Eupen area, where the line between Aachen (DE) and Eupen (B) is server alternatively by each country, that is full hour is the German bus, half hour Belgian bus. The line itself works line a suburban line as if there were no border, starts in center of Aachen, goes to the banlieue.


----------



## Noda[Med]

*border crossing between Georgia - Russia*


----------



## MattiG

LMB said:


> Sorry to rain on your parade, but that's not very "integrated".


Haven't seen a statetent that only "integrated" solutions are valid to be presented here, and there is some kind of competetion to find the most integrated one. I am sorry for annoyance.


----------



## Kpc21

About the cross-border public transport.

Theoretically it's possible to cross the Polish-Slovak border in Tatras at the border crossing in Łysa Polana by taking a Polish bus to the border, crossing it on foot, and then taking the Slovak bus. Both bus stops are very close to the border.

And there are people doing so, as there is no alternative (in the summer holidays, there is a direct line operated by the Strama company, but out of this period - not).

The problem is that on the Polish side, the public transport is actually not coordinated by any official institution. So it's operated by private companies independently. Those private companies often don't publish their timetables at all.

It is quite normal in Poland in case of the cross-country, village-to-village transport, there is few areas where such transport is coordinated by the municipalities and counties. But the nearby town of Zakopane is an exception in these terms, since it is there also about the city buses! This town hasn't coordinated the city public transport for years - unlike most of the cities and bigger towns in Poland, in which there is normal city public transport. Only in April this year, they started the first official city bus line. Everything was privately operated before, and still it is so in case of most lines in Zakopane. In case of the one which can take you to the border in Łysa Polana too. So - the bus goes frequently (especially in summer, when there is many tourists who want to use it), but there is no timetable.

The problem at the Slovak side is, on the other hand, that the transport is managed by official institutions - but there is only something like 4 bus connections for a day. The Polish and the Slovak buses aren't coordinated with each other in any way.

Now the people are trying to persuade the officials to establish a permanent public transport connection at the Polish-Slovak border.

It looks so at the Polish side: https://goo.gl/maps/Cdbx8tMKUvq










At the Slovak side: https://goo.gl/maps/G3iDvK7EDcu










It's 200-300 meters to walk. To cross an open border by public transport.


A different situation is at the Polish-Ukrainian border, in Medyka/Shegini.

There are direct bus connections from Przemyśl to Lviv. But many people choose a Polish bus to the border crossing, cross the border on foot (it is allowed there - although at most border crossings it is not allowed and you must be by car) and then catch an Ukrainian bus to Lviv. This connection is cheaper and faster (because direct buses often wait in long queues at the border, the queues for pedestrians are much shorter), although less comfortable.

Now a train service from Przemyśl to Lviv, with good prices and good travel time, is gonna start, so the situation there may change and there may be less pedestrians.


----------



## alserrod

I also know an international line in my region that crosses twice a border.

When, in 1970, railway between Canfranc and Oloron had an accident, traffic was shut down and replaced by a bus line managed by French SNCF. For a while, it was Canfranc station manager who gave start signal similar to another train (there is no longer manager in that station).

When Somport tunnel was opened, it was easier to give service via tunnel instead via Somport pass obviously, but they had to stop in the pass to give service to that corner. Due to it was better Spanish side rather than French side, bus crossed the tunnel, stopped at Canfranc, in front of railway station and kept on till Somport pass.

End of line is here... just some meters inside France (second international pass, first one is inside tunnel)

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.7957...4!1svaTcGqvW6-uYw56C8f-u9w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

and just... turn this image 180 and will see former booths!!!!

By the way, two hints

- I do not know if legal or not but they advice that in Winter, calling at Candanchu ski resort (one km before border). I do not know if they allow Canfranc-Candanchu tickets because there is a local service for the valley but... in a list I show the stop

- thanks to God, since last June this line is "only" Bedous-Canfranc due to railway line Bedous-Oloron was reopened. Buses and trains are commuted and it is fantastic seeing how they work for mobility in a such isolated área.


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## Eulanthe

Cross-border public transport in the EU is actually a huge problem. It's actually getting worse, not better - and what services do exist often consist of token runs to the first stop on the other side. 

For instance, look at the bus 983 in Frankfurt (Oder). It goes into Poland, but it isn't much more than a symbolic hourly service, and it doesn't serve much of Słubice, including the huge marketplace. It's better than what was there, but it isn't much. It's the same story with train connections - probably one of the most notable exceptions is the regional train service that goes from Wrocław to Pardubice. 

So the situation at Łysa Polana is nothing unusual. 

But in fairness, when you use these cross-border services, you can see that they tend to be used as local trains within countries and the amount of traffic crossing the border is quite light.


----------



## Verso

Yesterday there was 12-hour queue between Croatia and Serbia! :nuts:


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## italystf

Verso said:


> Yesterday there was 12-hour queue between Croatia and Serbia! :nuts:


Gastarbeiter going back for Christmas holidays?


----------



## piotr71

*[F][GB] Dunkirk/Dover. Refurbished terminal.*

Dunkirk, November 2016. On the entrance to the ferry terminal I passed 4 checks including 2 made by armed forces. I have never experienced it before.



Soldiers can be seen in the side mirror.








Scanning.


Terminal got new shape with more lanes and different numbering - previousley letters were used, now digits.


New fencing.








Dover. No checks here.


Weirdly, the weather is better on this side.


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## GROBIN

^^
In April, when I came to France from Vilnius for 2 weeks, I also took the Dunkirk-Dover ferry. All my French friends were telling me to avoid Calais due to those immigrant camp issues. It was a good choice. Only 30min.more on the ferry, similar price, no such issues as in Calais, and very close to Belgium, through which I came back to Paris after a few days spent in England in order to avoid as much as possible French radars


----------



## Alex_ZR

Verso said:


> Yesterday there was 12-hour queue between Croatia and Serbia! :nuts:


Only on Bajakovo-Batrovci crossing, which is on the motorway. People are stupid, for the time they lost in a queue, they could cross the border via smaller crossings.


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## tfd543

Indeed. Plenty of crossing points in Llok. The bad thing about Bajakovo is that its a highway crossing point so once you are trapped, there is no way out. You have to think twice at the last exit to Lipovac! Sid was allegedly also overcrowded. The massive queues are also because of the Kosovo albanians entering Serbia. Not only is it difficult with RKS documents, but also with a German, Swiss and Austrian passport to go through hassle free.

There was a person that died two days ago while waiting at Horgos/Röszke border. Its not something that would cost the world but the Serbian authorities could invest in some electronic tables with online queueing times to better distribute the traffic.


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## x-type

tfd543 said:


> The bad thing about Bajakovo is that its a highway crossing point so once you are trapped, there is no way out. You have to think twice at the last exit to Lipovac!


not really trapped. last exit is cca 1500 metres far from border crossing itself. queue was up to 15 km. so they had more than enough time to take exit to Tovarnik/Šid (there was waiting time up to 1 h).

also, the unusual queues were at exit Županja (and border crossing Županja/Orašje).


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## tfd543

My bad, yes. Its a good investment to build hotels there. There will always be queues in summer and winter seasons no matter what. I remember 10 years ago where it was a similar queue. We found a hotel near Lipovac. It was a time when it was still 1x1 road there.


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## Verso

x-type said:


> queue was up to 15 km.


For 12 hours of waiting you'd expect a 100-km-long queue.


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## Festin

Verso said:


> For 12 hours of waiting you'd expect a 100-km-long queue.


In Kosovo news, they said a lot of people had to complete some form of documentation at the border. Not sure if was due to using international id cards or if it only applied to those traveling further on to Kosovo through Serbia.


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> For 12 hours of waiting you'd expect a 100-km-long queue.


yes. maybe media wrote wrong because i remember there was 13 km queue, and soon after that media wrote 13h. maybe they just wrote h instead of km.


----------



## alserrod

OK guys.... let's guess

https://www.google.es/maps/@-26.412...=50.31529&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656


I would bet this road is in South African Republic cos in the left we can see a little fence but... not accuracy on google


----------



## Ices77

Hmm, well... Botswana?


----------



## Verso

x-type said:


> yes. maybe media wrote wrong because i remember there was 13 km queue, and soon after that media wrote 13h. maybe they just wrote h instead of km.


No, I saw people say they've been waiting for 10 hours, so 12 (or even 13) hours of waiting sounds plausible. I also heard of a 20-km queue (which is minimum you'd expect). Suddenly it doesn't feel that bad when I think I had to wait for 3.5 hours there in 2014.


----------



## Attus

Verso said:


> For 12 hours of waiting you'd expect a 100-km-long queue.


Yes, because you're accustomed to short and quick checks. But if check runs as in the 80's, or even some years ago at H-UA border (possibly the same right now, too, I don't know), the queue may move very slow.
I don't know whether you may remember early 90's. During the Yugoslavian war Gastarbeiters from Germany drove through A-H-RO-BG-TR. At the H-RO border the Romanian officers checked travellers so deep and so slow that waiting time got up to several days(!) though the queue was no longer than some kilometres (a 1 digit number).


----------



## tfd543

Attus said:


> Yes, because you're accustomed to short and quick checks. But if check runs as in the 80's, or even some years ago at H-UA border (possibly the same right now, too, I don't know), the queue may move very slow.
> I don't know whether you may remember early 90's. During the Yugoslavian war Gastarbeiters from Germany drove through A-H-RO-BG-TR. At the H-RO border the Romanian officers checked travellers so deep and so slow that waiting time got up to several days(!) though the queue was no longer than some kilometres (a 1 digit number).


But why was/is it like that ? What is it that can take so much time per vehicle ? Luggage control may be the bottleneck. Of course its not the CPU speed of the computers registering the passports. How in the hell did they register your entry/exit before computers were commercialized ?


----------



## alserrod

Ices77 said:


> Hmm, well... Botswana?


Look at Africa in google street view. Only available in South Africa (+Swalizalnd...) and Botswana. Nothing else


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> No, I saw people say they've been waiting for 10 hours, so 12 (or even 13) hours of waiting sounds plausible. I also heard of a 20-km queue (which is minimum you'd expect). Suddenly it doesn't feel that bad when I think I had to wait for 3.5 hours there in 2014.


today there was a hort article about it ni our newspapers - the main reason was bureaucracy with fullfilling some special forms for Kosovo citizens due to entering to Serbia.


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## italystf

Italy-Austria border near Tarvisio/Arnoldstein (A23/A2) in 1986


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## tfd543

A bit belated but the Schengen Code is going to be amended as the EU commission approved it some weeks ago to be passed in the EU Parliament soon. It will introduce registering of EU/EEA citizens in databases. Allegedly, it will mean longer queues at the borders to/from Croatia to/from MNE, SRB, BiH and to/from HU to/from SRB among many others scattered around Europe. 

This is what the EU Santa is going to throw down through our chimneys. On the other hand, we would be better off with some more security.

It will affect all kind of borders i.e. maritime, terrestrial and air borders.


----------



## kreden

tfd543 said:


> A bit belated but the Schengen Code is going to be amended as the EU commission approved it some weeks ago to be passed in the EU Parliament soon. It will introduce registering of EU/EEA citizens in databases. Allegedly, it will mean longer queues at the borders to/from Croatia to/from MNE, SRB, BiH and to/from HU to/from SRB among many others scattered around Europe.
> 
> This is what the EU Santa is going to throw down through our chimneys. On the other hand, we would be better off with some more security.
> 
> It will affect all kind of borders i.e. maritime, terrestrial and air borders.


As far as I understand, it will be applied at the Schengen external border, so expect queues between Slovenia/Hungary and Croatia, too.


----------



## volodaaaa

Thanks god. This is exactly what we wanted. So never mind the influx of refugees without any documents to check their crime records freely crossing the borders. Let's bully the ones who have their proper documents (e.g. tourists).


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## Verso

It's all Merkel's fault. Germans - destroying Europe since 1914.


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## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> A bit belated but the Schengen Code is going to be amended as the EU commission approved it some weeks ago to be passed in the EU Parliament soon. It will introduce registering of EU/EEA citizens in databases. Allegedly, it will mean longer queues at the borders to/from Croatia to/from MNE, SRB, BiH and to/from HU to/from SRB among many others scattered around Europe.


To be honest, this won't change much. Look at the HR-MNE border - passports/ID cards are scanned on entry/exit there anyway. It's the same on the Gibraltar border with Spain, and PL/SK definitely were scanning all documents on entry/exit. 

We need some innovative solutions to deal with getting people through quicker - such as introduce something like the Nexus solution used on the US/Canada border so people can cross quickly and without having to stop if they're trusted travellers.


----------



## Tenjac

Verso said:


> It's all Merkel's fault. Germans - destroying Europe since 1914.


I would expect "since 914" from a Slovene.


----------



## bogdymol

Eulanthe said:


> To be honest, this won't change much. Look at the HR-MNE border - passports/ID cards are scanned on entry/exit there anyway. It's the same on the Gibraltar border with Spain, and PL/SK definitely were scanning all documents on entry/exit.



When I crossed between Spain and Gibraltar I just waved my passport to the border officer. I could have had also my grandmother's passport as he couldn't care less to check it. 

Anyway, I agree that externa Schengen border checks should be at least minimal (scanning your passport into the system and keep a record there). However, as someone mentioned above, this should be done in a quick way to avoid long waiting times at the borders.


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## tfd543

They need new passport/ ID card scanners for sure but if they also begin to ask a lot of redundant questions then it can become long time if the driver cant speak English, let alone the officer. I like the idea of pre-registrering online as soon as you have registered at the booths x number of times but that would only be beneficial for locals.

Does anyone know what kind of scanners they are using? I guess its very standard equipment obeying the criteria.


----------



## haddockman

The scanners used at the SRB/BG border scan the passport physically and then read the data from the RFID chip. The 2 photos are compared side by side to check they are the same. The data from the passport populates a form that the border officer then completes.


----------



## alserrod

bogdymol said:


> When I crossed between Spain and Gibraltar I just waved my passport to the border officer. I could have had also my grandmother's passport as he couldn't care less to check it.
> 
> Anyway, I agree that externa Schengen border checks should be at least minimal (scanning your passport into the system and keep a record there). However, as someone mentioned above, this should be done in a quick way to avoid long waiting times at the borders.




Going from Spain to Gibraltar (and Andorra) will not care too much on passport but on goods imported


----------



## kato2k8

tfd543 said:


> What is it that can take so much time per vehicle ? Luggage control may be the bottleneck.


A 15 km line-up taking 12 hours with say three parallel controlling lanes open means they're only taking two minutes to check each car on average.

If they spend five minutes on checking the luggage of every third car then the others are waved through at one car every 30 seconds, which sounds reasonable - though actually a bit too fast.


----------



## OulaL

A new waiting area for goods transport has been opened in Vaalimaa, at E18 on the FIN-RUS border. A new motorway connecting Vaalimaa with Hamina (and further Helsinki) is scheduled for opening in March 2018. To avoid queues on the motorway, the waiting area was constructed first. The capacity is 410 lorries eastbound and 51 westbound.

It looks empty, partly because of EU sanctions, partly because the opening was scheduled (purposely) around New year and Russian holiday season.

Photos courtesy of Yle.



















Whole story (Finnish) here, http://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9386646


----------



## Eulanthe

A fascinating look at the Polish-Ukrainian border crossing in 1993 at Krościenko-Smolnica (sorry, I don't know the Ukrainian name). 

https://youtu.be/PvdxrTAPXE4?t=311

The most fascinating thing is the ongoing refusal of both sides to seriously consider opening up many more crossing points. There's a huge need for pedestrian-only crossings in many areas, and the examples from temporary openings show that you don't need to have elaborate infrastructure for pedestrian crossings.


----------



## gr_kanev

Eulanthe said:


> A fascinating look at the Polish-Ukrainian border crossing in 1993 at Krościenko-Smolnica (sorry, I don't know the Ukrainian name).


AFAIK - it's name is Смiльниця (Smil'nycia).


----------



## Kpc21

In this news reel they say that this crossing was open only once a week, you had to get an invitation from your family on the other side of the border by telegram and no vehicles other than bicycles were allowed.


----------



## Eulanthe

It's incredible to think that it's now 2017 and this crossing is still closed to pedestrian traffic. Poland seems to be insisting that there is separate infrastructure for pedestrians, which is complete nonsense. They've also said that there's no point in building pedestrian-only crossings as the cost isn't lower than building car crossings - which is clearly also nonsense, and an obvious excuse to avoid opening crossings in places such as Wołosate.


----------



## stickedy

Perhaps it's not about costs of building but about costs of operating. And there is in my opinion no big difference between a pedestrian crossing or a small car crossing in the middle of nowhere.


----------



## Eulanthe

The problem is that Poland doesn't build small crossings - they built an absolutely monstrous border crossing at Dołhobyczów that was absolutely not needed, especially as it's limited to traffic under 3.5t. 

If they could build small, simple crossings, then of course it makes sense to open them up for cars as well. But for pedestrians in rural areas, such as at the crossing in Wołosate, you only really need a small building with a room for secondary inspections. 

Even operating such a crossing doesn't need to cost much - you can make it so that the crossing cannot be used to import goods above the duty free limit, and border guards can perform the job of customs too, like how it used to be on many crossings with Slovakia and the Czech Republic. 

You only need one room for secondary checks, one room as an office and a basic toilet/kitchen, nothing more. It's only Poland that's interpreting the Schengen Borders Code to require huge amounts of buildings, not the Code itself.

In comparison, car crossings need to be equipped for people to work in all weather, they need to have inspection areas (and people to perform the inspections) and all sorts of other infrastructure. They built this on the Slovakian border - http://www.minv.sk/swift_data/sourc...icne_priechody_sr/2/HP-Velke_Slemence.jpg?v=2 - and it's more than enough for a basic pedestrian crossing.


----------



## italystf

Switzerland announced a plan to close during night some local border crossings with Italy, with the aim of 'improving security'.
The experimental stage of this project will affect Novazzano, Pedrinate and Ponte Cremenaga border crossings, that will be closed completely between 10 p.m. and 5 a.m. for 7 months, starting this spring.
Existing bars will be replaced by gates.
According to Swiss government, this isn't against Schengen agreement, as other nearby border crossings will remain open.
http://www.ticinonews.ch/ticino/341713/chiusura-notturna-ecco-i-valichi

I personally think that a such measure won't benefit anyone in term of security, as criminals can however cross the border elsewhere if they want to. It will negatively affect residents of the area, that would have to do long detours at night.


----------



## Attus

Pamhagen (A) - Fertőd (H), today. Check the snow (not my video):


----------



## tfd543

What are the rules for non-EU family members when crossing land borders intended only for locals and EU/EEA citizens ? What if it is not the spouse but still a family member and this person possess a residence permit in an EU country and a non-EU biometric passport ? Can he/she cross the border along with the EU citizen ?

There are some of these borders in Hungary

Thanks


----------



## alserrod

true... if no booths, no possible control, of course


----------



## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> What are the rules for non-EU family members when crossing land borders intended only for locals and EU/EEA citizens ? What if it is not the spouse but still a family member and this person possess a residence permit in an EU country and a non-EU biometric passport ? Can he/she cross the border along with the EU citizen ?
> 
> There are some of these borders in Hungary
> 
> Thanks


Generally speaking, it's only intended for direct family members. If it's a cousin or sister, they should use a proper international crossing. But it really depends on the situation - for instance, if it's at Horgos/Roszke, they'll just redirect you, but if it's at a smaller crossing and it's on the way out of the EU, they might not have a problem with it. 

However, if it's a permanent residence permit, they can use the crossing on the same basis as an EU citizen.


----------



## adam79

Israel-Jordan border crossing










source: roadsignspot


----------



## Verso

^^ The Yugoslav/Slovenian road through Italy was (and still is) walled off from the rest of Italy. It would indeed be better if Croatia just built a new road through its territory since it's so short.


----------



## Kpc21

bogdymol said:


> Was planned for 2012. Now nobody is talking about this anymore, although EU officially recognized that both Romania and Bulgaria have qualified under all criterias to join at any time. One reason for not getting in might be the buffer-area it provides against immigrants comming from the east, which some EU states don't want to disappear.


But 2012 was before the migration crisis...

Well, you must persuade the EU that you will protect the external EU border well, not like Greeks did.


----------



## bogdymol

If Romania and Bulgaria join Schengen and Greece still doesn't protect its borders properly, the immigrants would have a free route to western Europe through RO and BG... I think this is the main issue now.


----------



## Gyorgy

italystf said:


> There is an Estonian road crossing into Russia, there was a Yugoslavian road crossing into Italy during the Cold War, and now a Croatian road crossing into Slovenia is a big deal (they are both in EU, so should have friendly relations).


It's not a big deal or closed, it was for a short time when workers were assembling the gates.

LINK

As it's written in Croatian:



> Zbog radova na cesti promet je jučer kraće vrijeme bio u prekidu.


----------



## piotr71

This is Facebook and other media - some of my colegues living on Croatian side of Istria, mostly in Buzet area, after this temporalny closure, are very concerned about future ralations with neighbours ( rather on a political, than other level) in Slovenia. Comments on FB are like, the closure would have been a spark to begin a new conflict, or so. Most of them are born in sixties or seventies, though


----------



## alserrod

These are old custom booths here

https://www.google.es/maps/place/Es...8!8m2!3d42.7750579!4d-0.3714806!6m1!1e1?hl=es

between Spain and France. Picture is from France looking to Spain

Right building has been refurbished for a cultural lounge and is having several exhibitions (50-50 in each country cos line cross in the middle)










Have a look to the image and later to the google image in the right... it is the same building.


Source is
http://www.aragonhoy.net/index.php/mod.noticias/mem.detalle/id.194152#18-02-2017

it is an official press release and free to be copied full providing source is linked... but it is entirely in Spanish


----------



## Robi_damian

Kpc21 said:


> When does Romania plan to enter Schengen? Was the process slowed down by the migration crisis?


It was slowed down even before by the unpopularity of mass Romanian migration to Western Europe (even though border checks have NO bearin on this). The fact that the secondary border crossings which were built for the time we join Schengen have been opened with border police posts suggests that no one is hoping to join Schengen any time soon.


----------



## tfd543

Kpc21 said:


> But 2012 was before the migration crisis...
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you must persuade the EU that you will protect the external EU border well, not like Greeks did.




Think air boders will be subject to Schengen regulations first for Romania and Bulgaria but maybe also for Croatia. I surmise that they gonna take all 3 countries in as a package after elections in France and Germany.


----------



## italystf

bogdymol said:


> ^^ It is not mentioned in the article, but *I am sure that all EU citizens can cross there.* Not sure about non-EU though...
> 
> 
> 
> Was planned for 2012. Now nobody is talking about this anymore, although EU officially recognized that both Romania and Bulgaria have qualified under all criterias to join at any time. One reason for not getting in might be the buffer-area it provides against immigrants comming from the east, which some EU states don't want to disappear.


Is there a law that states that all inner-EU border crossings have to be open to all EU citizens?
I'm asking because local border crossings between Italy and Slovenia were opened only to local residents (10km from the border) until Slovenia joined Schengen.


----------



## italystf

tfd543 said:


> Think air boders will be subject to Schengen regulations first for Romania and Bulgaria but maybe also for Croatia. I surmise that they gonna take all 3 countries in as a package after elections in France and Germany.


Istria/Venezia Giulia area will become border-less for the first time since 1947!


----------



## Alqaszar

The huge numbers of migrants and the chickenish response of the former Eastblockers & Western right wing idiots have indeed halted the expansion of the Schengen plan regarding Romania and Bulgaria. To make it even worse, those Western idiots like UKIP took the influx of former Eastblockers as a rason to close the borders -- by leaving the EU.

So all the people from Estonia to Bulgaria now are fullfilling a strange double role as the bullies and the bullied at the same time. However, the situation in Romania is different from all the other countries east of the torn-down Iron Curtain: There is no bigger populist, nationalist, authoritarian party -- neither in the gouvernment, nor in the opposition, so that even in this time of political disaccordance in that country, the situation is much better than for example in Hungary.

Worst case scenario is that Hungary becomes even more estranged from the EU. The other western neighbour, Serbia, is actually nowhere close to the EU, since the political issues of the Balkans had not been solved by the Dayton agreement and need still to be sorted out. Worst case here is also the new outbreak of civil war or waponised unrest.

So despite of relatively stable politics -- the current demonstrations in Romania show that attempts to undermine standards of transparancy and democracy weren't taken well by the people on the streets and the gouvernment is under a lot of pressure for trying to do so -- the country is threatened to become isolated from the rest of Europe, surronded by nationalist regimes which ultimately will find "Gayropa" is the enemy once the money flow from Brussels stops as a result of the intolerant and antidemocratic policies in those countries.

So for all border control fetishists, the Visegrad nations are the place to be.


----------



## JackFrost

^^this year German government already sent home 80 thousand "refugees".

http://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschl...nistan-abschiebungen-sichere-herkunftslaender

And by the way, Romanian and Bulgarian Schengen accession was halted years before the migrant crisis, namely around 2011. Mainly by the Dutch and the French.

Greetings from pro-EU Hungary.


----------



## kreden

italystf said:


> I'm asking because local border crossings between Italy and Slovenia were opened only to local residents (10km from the border) until Slovenia joined Schengen.


Are you sure? If I remember correctly, all crossings were opened to all EU/EEA citizens after Slovenia joined the EU, perhaps not in 2004, but certainly before Schengen implementation. The same happened when Croatia joined the EU, although it didn't happen immediately, so it may indeed be a bilateral issue.


----------



## Corvinus

Alqaszar said:


> So for all border control fetishists, the Visegrad nations are the place to be.


Wrong. *France* is this place. Border controls to every neighbouring country (with all except Andorra being Schengen members), creating important traffic jams. This in the country whose politicians found the Hungarian fence at the Schengen *external* border so "un-European".


----------



## MichiH

JackFrost said:


> ^^this year German government already sent home 80 thousand "refugees".
> 
> http://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschl...nistan-abschiebungen-sichere-herkunftslaender


Last year


----------



## Verso

kreden said:


> Are you sure? If I remember correctly, all crossings were opened to all EU/EEA citizens after Slovenia joined the EU, perhaps not in 2004, but certainly before Schengen implementation. The same happened when Croatia joined the EU, although it didn't happen immediately, so it may indeed be a bilateral issue.


Interstate border crossings (with Austria) were open for EU citizens already before 2004... except that there was no interstate border crossing between Slovenia and Italy, only international and local.


----------



## GROBIN

And now an info about the Lithuanian/Belarusian Šumskas/Loša border crossing. It is now (since Friday) available for all people and open 24 hours. However, you may drive through only by car or by bike, not by bus, truck nor walk through. ([URL="http://zw.lt/wilno-wilenszczyzna/miedzynarodowe-przejscie-szumsk-losza-tylko-dla-samochodow/"]source[/URL])

More info on the Lithuanian and Belarusian border guards' office.

I think this is the 1st time Belarus and an EU-country open a fully international border crossing without customs officers, only with border guards! This means you may not cross here if you have something to declare!


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Interstate border crossings (with Austria) were open for EU citizens already before 2004... except that there was no interstate border crossing between Slovenia and Italy, only international and local.


Exactly. Before 2007 there were 12 international border crossings (valichi di 1° categoria) open to everybody (Fusine, Predil, Uccea, Stupizza, Vencò, Gorizia Casa Rossa, Gorizia Sant'Andrea, Fernetti, Lipica, Pesek, Rabuiese and Lazzaretto) and many local border crossings (valichi di 2° categoria) open only to holders of a document called lasciapassare or propusnica, that was granted only to people living less than 10 km from the border.
This arrangement was already in force during Yugoslavia and continued after Slovenian independence.
There was another category of border crossings called "valichi agricoli" (agricultural border crossings), that were opened only to people having lands on the other side. I don't know whether they remained in use after Slovenian independence or not.


----------



## keber

GROBIN said:


> I think this is the 1st time Belarus and an EU-country open a fully international border crossing without customs officers, only with border guards! This means you may not cross here if you have something to declare!


So how can you enter Belarus with your own car if there is no customs service? You must temporary import your car into Belarus and this was done by customs officers.


----------



## Corvinus

What about the compulsory health insurance for Belarus, is it still around? This little crossing doesn't look like they sold it right there.


----------



## bogdymol

Another interesting thing about UK borders:

This week I flew from Cork (Ireland) to Manchester (England). There were no border checks on either airport.

However, last year I flew from London Stansted to Dublin, and after landing in Dublin I had to go through passport control.


----------



## koko_vp

*BULGARIA (Rudozem-Xanthi) GREECE*

The deadline for the completion is the middle of 2018 and the border crossing point will be situated at 1021m. of altitude. The road leading to the Greek border is already built from the Bulgarian side.



















Location: https://www.google.bg/maps/@41.3992...JcFB6kZ4UvbQQWQlZ-jg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
Source: http://infrastructure.bg/news/2017/01/23/2904780_noviiat_granichen_kontrolno-propuskatelen_punkt/


----------



## koko_vp

*BULGARIA - TURKEY 
*
*Kapitan Andreevo - Kapıkule*









*Lesovo - Hamzabeyli*









The Bulgarian fence is almost completed on the whole length of the border


----------



## DanielFigFoz

bogdymol said:


> Another interesting thing about UK borders:
> 
> This week I flew from Cork (Ireland) to Manchester (England). There were no border checks on either airport.
> 
> However, last year I flew from London Stansted to Dublin, and after landing in Dublin I had to go through passport control.


The Garda always checks inbound passengers from Britain. In theory British citizens don't need a passport to get through but they need to prove that they are British citizens and so a passport is required anyway.


----------



## bogdymol

How is it when you fly, for example, from London to Belfast? Are you checked upon arrival in Belfast?

From Belfast you can drive to Republic of Ireland without any land border checks...


----------



## Junkie

That fence is the new "Iron Curtain". But I guess this one is in fact effective.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

bogdymol said:


> How is it when you fly, for example, from London to Belfast? Are you checked upon arrival in Belfast?
> 
> From Belfast you can drive to Republic of Ireland without any land border checks...


No, no control whatsoever. Nor is there any for ferry passengers arriving anywhere in Ireland from Britain.


----------



## alserrod

Is Bulgaria so controlled among border with Greece, being both of EU?


----------



## OulaL

koko_vp said:


> *BULGARIA - TURKEY
> *
> *Kapitan Andreevo - Kapıkule*


... never seen a speed limit not divisible by 5.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

5 mph


----------



## bogdymol

DanielFigFoz said:


> No, no control whatsoever. Nor is there any for ferry passengers arriving anywhere in Ireland from Britain.


So if you go from England to the Republic of Ireland directly, you get checked, but if you go England -> Northern Ireland -> Republic of Ireland you avoid all checks. Weird...



ChrisZwolle said:


> 5 mph


5 is divisible by 1 and... 5 

I think what OulaL was trying to say is that he has never seen a speed limit not "ending" with a 5 or a 0.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

5 mph is also 8 km/h


----------



## Corvinus

alserrod said:


> Is Bulgaria so controlled among border with Greece, being both of EU?


Yes, b/c Bulgaria is not part of Schengen while Greece is. 
Same going on at H/HR, H/RO borders.


----------



## bogdymol

ChrisZwolle said:


> 5 mph is also 8 km/h




8 km/h is actually 4,97096954 mph


----------



## Junkie

Corvinus said:


> Yes, b/c Bulgaria is not part of Schengen while Greece is.
> Same going on at H/HR, H/RO borders.


Then what you say about the fences between H/SLO and A/SLO.


----------



## koko_vp

italystf said:


> However, I'm concerned about the possible effects that border fences can have on wildlife and biodiversity. Since they can't be crossed by terrestrial animals, they may change the environmental equilibrium of the area in some decades.


But it's also stopping epidemics from spreading, like I mention.



koko_vp said:


> One more great benefit from the fence is that stops the herds of infected wild animals from Turkey carrying Foot-and-mouth disease (Aphthae epizooticae), causing thousands of euros in losses to the Bulgarian farmers.


There is no cure for the Aphthae epizooticae and the only way to stop the disease from spreading is to put down all of the infected livestock and burying them. One news from 2011


----------



## aubergine72

Junkie said:


> That fence is the new "Iron Curtain". But I guess this one is in fact effective.


And the old wasn't? :nuts:


----------



## haddockman

DanielFigFoz said:


> The Garda always checks inbound passengers from Britain. In theory British citizens don't need a passport to get through but they need to prove that they are British citizens and so a passport is required anyway.


Not true.
Any evidence is acceptable, driving licence, bus passes etc.


----------



## Fatfield

bogdymol said:


> So if you go from England to the Republic of Ireland directly, you get checked, but if you go England -> Northern Ireland -> Republic of Ireland you avoid all checks. Weird...


Its just a cursory check as flights between RoI & UK are classed as domestic.


----------



## Junkie

koko_vp said:


> Well, no government want to spend hundreds of millions for fence, cameras, cars, equipment and helicopters, but when you have a rising Dictator for neighbour, which is constantly threatening the European union and using the refugee crysis to put pressure against Europe, that's what happen. Personally I have friends in Turkey and I feel really bad, because of the way Turkey is heading. But enough of geopolitics, the national security is not something to be underestimated. One more great benefit from the fence is that stops the herds of infected wild animals from Turkey carrying Foot-and-mouth disease (Aphthae epizooticae), causing hundreds of thousand euro in losses to the Bulgarian farmers.


That fence reminds me of the fence between the state of SFRY and the People's Republic of Bulgaria and I have seen it, and it was not a pleasant view compared to this one. Although that fence was not that evil, it was clear that it was made to take a life by any means if you try to cross it illegally. Also the guards from the Eastern Bloc side states had permissions to shoot.


----------



## Verso

Junkie said:


> Then what you say about the fences between H/SLO and A/SLO.


There's no fence between Slovenia and Hungary. There are short fences between Slovenia and Austria, which Austrians should just remove, since they don't stop anyone and the Balkan route has been closed down anyway. They also insist on unnecessary border control, meanwhile Italy rescues thousands of Africans every month.


----------



## italystf

The main differences between Cold War border fortifications and the current anti-immigration ones, is that the latters don't prevent normal people from both sides, with valid documents, to travel freely. Apart the Serb-Hungarian border, that was closed for some days following some disorders in 2015, all other borders remained open to all nationalities during migrant crisis. Crossing non-Schengen borders is allowed only at designated border crossings, anyway, so border fortifications don't affect normal travellers.
Cold War borders were another thing, instead, as for Warsaw Pact (and Albanian) citizens, it was impossible to go to Western countries unless they were privileged members of the party.
However, I'm concerned about the possible effects that border fences can have on wildlife and biodiversity. Since they can't be crossed by terrestrial animals, they may change the environmental equilibrium of the area in some decades.


----------



## Corvinus

Verso said:


> There are short fences between Slovenia and Austria, which Austrians should just remove, since they don't stop anyone and the Balkan route has been closed down anyway.


Let's pay closer attention to former chancellor Faymann, he clearly explained those structures aren't _fences _, but "winged doors" (_Türl mit Seitenteilen_) :lol:

On the serious side, I wouldn't bet too much on the Balkan route definitely being closed down. Spring is coming, the EU-Turkey deal is uncertain, masses might be on the move once again. Even those already in Greece are in the tens of thousands.


----------



## Gyorgy

^^ Even without Turkey there are around 70 000 people "stuck" in Bulgaria, Greece, Macedonia up to Serbia (10 000).

This another reason for upgrading fences in Hungary and Slovenia. Croatia is doing just fine with illegal pushbacks to Serbia and police brutality, it has a bad reputation among migrants.


----------



## alserrod

italystf said:


> The main differences between Cold War border fortifications and the current anti-immigration ones, is that the latters don't prevent normal people from both sides, with valid documents, to travel freely. Apart the Serb-Hungarian border, that was closed for some days following some disorders in 2015, all other borders remained open to all nationalities during migrant crisis. Crossing non-Schengen borders is allowed only at designated border crossings, anyway, so border fortifications don't affect normal travellers.
> Cold War borders were another thing, instead, as for Warsaw Pact (and Albanian) citizens, it was impossible to go to Western countries unless they were privileged members of the party.
> However, I'm concerned about the possible effects that border fences can have on wildlife and biodiversity. Since they can't be crossed by terrestrial animals, they may change the environmental equilibrium of the area in some decades.




I do not remember the border but I read an article about one where fence didn't exist any more but animals were absolutely different in one and another side of the same forest.
Reason?, many decades with a fence, they used to move always in the same caves, trees and so on.

No fence... but they had "their" territory.... and was just before international that territory


----------



## Junkie

italystf said:


> The main differences between Cold War border fortifications and the current anti-immigration ones, is that the latters don't prevent normal people from both sides, with valid documents, to travel freely. Apart the Serb-Hungarian border, that was closed for some days following some disorders in 2015, all other borders remained open to all nationalities during migrant crisis. Crossing non-Schengen borders is allowed only at designated border crossings, anyway, so border fortifications don't affect normal travellers.
> Cold War borders were another thing, instead, as for Warsaw Pact (and Albanian) citizens, it was impossible to go to Western countries unless they were privileged members of the party.
> However, I'm concerned about the possible effects that border fences can have on wildlife and biodiversity. Since they can't be crossed by terrestrial animals, they may change the environmental equilibrium of the area in some decades.


SFRY was not part of the so called "Warsaw Pact" and it had those privileges, so its citizens could go to the Western countries without a visa. Unlike Bulgarians and Romanians, I was able to pass without questions or bureaucracies just everywhere.


----------



## italystf

Junkie said:


> SFRY was not part of the so called "Warsaw Pact" and it had those privileges, so its citizens could go to the Western countries without a visa. Unlike Bulgarians and Romanians, I was able to pass without questions or bureaucracies just everywhere.


I know that, I was not saying that Yugoslavia was in Warsaw Pact, but that people from Warsaw Pact countries and Albania (that wasn't in Warsaw Pact but it had a hardcore communist regime) were usually forbidden to travel west.


----------



## Kpc21

haddockman said:


> Not true.
> Any evidence is acceptable, driving licence, bus passes etc.


Bus passes? Do you have to be a British resident to have a bus pass?


----------



## aubergine72

Junkie said:


> SFRY was not part of the so called "Warsaw Pact" and it had those privileges, so its citizens could go to the Western countries without a visa. Unlike Bulgarians and Romanians, I was able to pass without questions or bureaucracies just everywhere.


Now it's the opposite.


----------



## Kpc21

Really? I don't know what about the citizens of Serbia entering EU, but the EU citizens can enter Serbia without passports, an identity card is enough.

Of course except for those from countries where no personal identity cards are issued. But they need a passport to travel anywhere, even in Schengen.


----------



## MattiG

Kpc21 said:


> Bus passes? Do you have to be a British resident to have a bus pass?


The UK is the largest outdoor museum in Europe. Do not be surprised about anything. Such as proving your identity by showing your gas bill.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Kpc21 said:


> But they need a passport to travel anywhere, even in Schengen.


If you are talking about Serbia, we can travel with ID to Macedonia, Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina.


----------



## Junkie

Alex_ZR said:


> If you are talking about Serbia, we can travel with ID to Macedonia, Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina.


While MKD citizens can enter Serbia, Albania, Montenegro and Kosovo with a valid biometric ID.


----------



## Fatfield

MattiG said:


> The UK is the largest outdoor museum in Europe. Do not be surprised about anything. Such as proving your identity by showing your gas bill.


Whilst I believe you have your tongue firmly in your cheek, you must also provide photo ID too. If you can't then you need to provide a bank statement and two utility bills.


----------



## alserrod

AFAIK.... in 1973, for being qualified to football world cup Germany'74, Spain and Yugoslavia met in the same group. Both countries hadn't either embassies, either diplomatic relations.

At the end, France collaborated and was the country who gave visas for coaches and players to travel to the another country and would offer their embassies for any issues.

At the end, 2:2 in Spain, 0:0 in Yugoslavia and in the final board, tied in points and goal average, thus a tie break match in Germany. Yugoslavia won and played in the world cup.


By the way, first curious case... it was easier to be played in Belgrade and Madrid because embassy reasons... but they were played in Zagreb and... Las Palmas (hopeful, yugoslavians didn't have any problem there).

In another group, for same world cup, Northern Ireland had to play all matches as local in England. I do not know reason. They chose Coventry, London and Sheffield.


----------



## Fatfield

alserrod said:


> In another group, for same world cup, Northern Ireland had to play all matches as local in England. I do not know reason. They chose Coventry, London and Sheffield.


It was because of 'The Troubles'. At that time the Provos were bombing Belfast just about every day so it was deemed unsafe.


----------



## Kpc21

MattiG said:


> The UK is the largest outdoor museum in Europe. Do not be surprised about anything. Such as proving your identity by showing your gas bill.


Proving your identity is one thing, proving your nationality - another thing.



Alex_ZR said:


> If you are talking about Serbia, we can travel with ID to Macedonia, Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina.


What about travelling to the EU?


----------



## Alex_ZR

Kpc21 said:


> What about travelling to the EU?


Passport is needed.


----------



## Palance

OulaL said:


> ... never seen a speed limit not divisible by 5.


Maybe it's typically from the Balkans?
At the Croatian border crossing Karasovići towards Montenegro there is also a speed limit of 8 km/h


----------



## alserrod

About ID and that stuff... once I crossed by train border between Spain and France. There were many foreing people. It had to be a special date or so but many people moved by train till the border and were to take another train in the border to keep on the journey.

Train arrived near here and had to cross a long tunnel under main tracks (in the google image there is a long distance train and a commuter train waiting for departure).

Former booths remained but no longer used... but in the middle of the tunnel I was stopped by a person who showed me a police plate and asked for passport. I hereby have to say that he had so strange jacket that should I find him in a corner, I turn back and take another way... but he showed me police plate and asked for passport.

I was so surprised that asked him again what he wanted (it was first time I was asked to show a passport in the border for a long time, a long time I had to show ID or so and first time I hear something in Spanish except conversations by phone or with some mates, because in France and all in the train all was in French).
I stopped, opened one suitcase in the middle of the tunnel (there were a lot of people and two more polices were located randomly in the middle of it) and looked for it. He asked me where I was going to. I answered. He asked me again (there was too much noise). I repeated and he invited me to keep all and go through.

Destination was clearly not usual about type of people they were suppose to search and my accent was so clear that no passport was supposed (in addition, being honest, someone can guess my region just hearing me. I have seen only the case of a French whose mother was from my homecity and he visited his grandparents once or twice per year. He learnt Spanish and kept a so strong local accent.... not often at all providing he had only French nationality)


No more controls I have had in Spain for passports each time I have gone to France. Never coming from Andorra (always suitcases coming from Andorra) and in 1986 yeah... border booths existed with Portugal.


----------



## haddockman

I always make a point of refusing to show a passport when arriving in Ireland from a UK originating flight. Driving licence is always accepted by the Irish border guards.


----------



## Kpc21

Interesting 

But it's a matter of some extra agreements between the UK and Ireland, I think. Because, for example, if you travel from Poland to Germany, even though there is no check at the border, you are obliged to have your ID or passport with you. There are random document checks by police or border guard patrols in the close neighborhood of the border.

More or less a year ago, I had such a check on a line bus from Berlin to Warsaw. The German police stopped us on the highway, we had to pull off to a roadside rest area, they entered the bus and started checking the documents of all the passengers.


----------



## alserrod

In Spain, everyone is obliged to have always the ID card, therefore, it can be easily asked randomly (even in the border...). It is compulsory for teenagers over 14 years old but let's say that compulsory to have it (at least in your home) over 12 years old because ID card number is needed for first education grade title.

For my oldest daugther I had to show it to ask for a music education program (obliged to write child ID card number!!!) and for playing official federated sports (insurance = ID card number)

For my youngest daughter, I made first one when she was 9 months old to take a Ryanair plane.



by the way, I do know that those documents are enough to move within EU for adults but teenagers and children must have an official agreement made by both parents. They try to avoid children leaving country without parents' agreement (compulsory too for a passport). 
My question is... should a child is abroad with both mother and father at the same time... does he need agreement?


----------



## bogdymol

In Romania, if a person under 18 years old wants to get out of the country, it must do so together with both parents.

If only one parent is going with the child, then an official document made at a public notary is needed certifying that the other parent allows the child to leave the country.
^^ This can bring issues like: the parents of someone I know have divorced, and the child was living with one of the parents, who had also relatives abroad. The child couldn't visit his relatives abroad, not even for a short time during school vacantion, as the other parent would not agree to sign this document (did so more to annoy the ex-partner).

If the child needs to exit Romania without any parent, then the declaration at public notary is needed, signed by both parents, and also with the details of an adult with who the child is allowed to travel with.
^^ My story about this: I was 18 years and 1 month old, just got my drivers license and wanted to go to a nice aquapark in Hungary just a few km from the border with Romania. My girlfrend was under 18 at that time, so her parents went at a public notary and made this document, writing me as the "responsible" adult for her, so that we can travel alone to Hungary. After the aquapark in Hungary, few months later, while she was still under 18, we visited together also Paris and London, while she was still under my "supervision".


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## Kpc21

Well, if the child is with them abroad, then the agreement can be stated without any problem by mouth, so I don't see any reason why it would need to have a written form.

In Poland, it's obligatory to have an ID from the age of 18. Before, it's possible, but not compulsory. Some people are getting an ID a few months earlier to be able to start a driving course earlier (if I remember well, it's possible from the age of 17, while taking the exam is possible at the age of 18), but then, the ID is valid for 5 years only instead of 10 years. And some do it to fool sellers in shops to sell them alcohol, which is also allowed from the age of 18 (even beer). They often just check that you have an ID, without specifically checking the date of birth.

The personal number (called PESEL here) is given to the child at the moment of registering the birth. It has nothing to do with the ID card, except for that it's printed on it. The number of the ID changes when the ID expires (or gets stolen, lost or damaged) and a new one is issued, PESEL is one for the whole life.

To issue an ID for a child, from the age of somewhere around 10 up, an agreement of only one of the parents is required. To issue a passport, both parents must sign the application form. And I haven't heard about problems with travelling the child with only one of the parents within the EU.

Although I know a case when a child was travelling with his mother - within the EU - but the situation was so unusual that:
- the child had a different surname (the father's surname, not used by the mother),
- the parental rights of the father were terminated by a court.

An officer of an airline at an airport in Greece didn't really like that - although, finally, let them go, telling to have some documents confirming being the parent of the child for the next time.

By the way, when did your countries (if you have ID's at all) switch from an ID in form of a booklet, filled in by hand, to a plastic card? In Poland it was somewhere around 2000 (they were in use to 2008), and more or less the same with driving licenses.

The old ID's looked like this:



















The PESEL number is here below the photo.

Those old ID's contained much more information - for example the list of the children of the specific person, together with the information about the other parents and their jobs.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

haddockman said:


> I always make a point of refusing to show a passport when arriving in Ireland from a UK originating flight. Driving licence is always accepted by the Irish border guards.


I will remember that for next time


----------



## haddockman

DanielFigFoz said:


> I will remember that for next time


That only works if you are an Irish or UK citizen.


----------



## Kpc21

The public transport authority in Budapest accepts foreign student cards as proofs of being entitled to a student discount in the means of public transport. And it's quite affordable to use this discount, as a monthly pass for a student is cheaper than a weekly pass for a non-student. And only slightly more expensive than a three-day pass.

When I was in Budapest a year ago, I had two student IDs with me: a Polish and a German one, both were valid. A friend of mine I traveled with, had a German one, but he was a Norwegian citizen.

From what I checked, only EU citizens are allowed for this discount. I used the Polish card and it was accepted without any problems. The Norwegian friend (Norway is not in the EU) used a German card and it was accepted too 

Later, our friend from China, also having a German student ID, joined us. For her, we didn't risk buying a ticket with a discount allowed for EU citizens only, the ticket inspector could get curious about her nationality  And anyway, she was in Budapest for 3 days only, and a three-day pass was enough for her.


Polish public transport authorities, as well as the railway, also have discounts for students, but they usually accept Polish students IDs only. And ISIC cards too, but it's not a typical student ID, rather just a discount card. Euro26 cards are not accepted.

The explanation is that it's impossible for a ticket inspector or the conductor on the train to know all the templates of student IDs from all the countries around the world.

By the way, while in Poland, the template of a student ID is fixed by law:



















and the ID has to be prolonged every semester - so that a student who leaves the university before graduating will not be able to use the card for the discounts:










in Germany, each university has its own template. And there is no prolongation each semester. The ID has just a single expiry date. It should be returned when you are leaving the university - although technically it's possible to find a workaround to that. Like claiming that you have lost your ID.

Some transport authorities in Poland allow using foreign student cards if the student can show a certified translation of the card to Polish. But... the German ID I had looked like this:










On the rear side, there was just a commercial advertisement.

What to translate from this card? Just the word "Matrikel Nr."? Or the commercial on the rear side?


----------



## alserrod

I remember leaving when 14. I had my passport but as back-up I had my ID card and "mother's agreement" (then it was enough one father or mother agreement and it is signed in a police station).

Nowadays, due to restricted laws, for ID card is enough father or mother agreement but both for passport or allowance to travel abroad.

Another issue is the birth document (Required for first ID card or passport, for instance). It can be asked only by parents... or grandparents with authorization. In addition it can be asked by internet... but with your passwords. I know one person who was born in the last island in Canary and I always say him to ask a document each time he goes there... maybe will be needed in the future and not easy to ask nowadays.


I wasn't born in my homecity and it was enough a phone call from my parents to a friends and they asked that document without authorization.


Today or tomorrow I will ask if being with both parents within Schengen, parents' agreement is needed.


----------



## koko_vp

italystf said:


> However, I'm concerned about the possible effects that border fences can have on wildlife and biodiversity. Since they can't be crossed by terrestrial animals, they may change the environmental equilibrium of the area in some decades.


But it's also stopping epidemics from spreading, like I mention.



koko_vp said:


> One more great benefit from the fence is that stops the herds of infected wild animals from Turkey carrying Foot-and-mouth disease (Aphthae epizooticae), causing thousands of euros in losses to the Bulgarian farmers.


There is no cure for the Aphthae epizooticae and the only way to stop the disease from spreading is to put down all of the infected livestock and burying them. One news from 2011


----------



## LMB

haddockman said:


> That only works if you are an Irish or UK citizen.


Not at all. I am an EU citizen and I don't carry the passport within the EU. 

I can go to Bulgaria or Croatia with my plastic ID as well.


----------



## Junkie

LMB said:


> Not at all. I am an EU citizen and I don't carry the passport within the EU.
> 
> I can go to Bulgaria or Croatia with my plastic ID as well.


Do you know that EU citizens can enter Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Bosnia&Hercegovina, Albania and Kosovo with ID as well?


----------



## alserrod

Already asked.... no need for further documentation for kids providing they travel within Schengen area and both parents are with them (and all of them have their ID cards)

About passports, they require both father and mother signature. Regarding problem to go at the same time to police station, they offer first of them goes and signs (but sample form cannot quit police station). Second one will go and allowance of the first one is already given.


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## Kpc21

Passport at the police station? What does the police have to do with passports, except for that they are entitled to check them?

In Poland, ID cards are issued by city/town/municipality offices, passports by voivodeship offices.

So you usually have to go to a bigger city to apply for a passport.

Polish citizens can enter Serbia with IDs only. It's probably the same with all the EU.

Possibility to enter a country with ID only and no passport doesn't depend on the membership in the Schengen area, but on the membership in the EU. Or on additional agreements if the country is not in the EU. If it's in Schengen, but not in the EU, it has to be possible too, there is just no other way.


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## Verso

LMB said:


> Not at all. I am an EU citizen and I don't carry the passport within the EU.
> 
> I can go to Bulgaria or Croatia with my plastic ID as well.


He was talking about driving licence, not ID.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

LMB said:


> Not at all. I am an EU citizen and I don't carry the passport within the EU.
> 
> I can go to Bulgaria or Croatia with my plastic ID as well.


But you wouldn't be able to enter Ireland with a driving licence unless you're a British or Irish citizen I don't think.

Oh sorry, I didn't see Verso's post.


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## haddockman

Correct!


----------



## MattiG

Kpc21 said:


> Passport at the police station? What does the police have to do with passports, except for that they are entitled to check them?


In many countries, passports are issued by the police.



> In Poland, ID cards are issued by city/town/municipality offices, passports by voivodeship offices.


Believe me, there are other countries than Poland, too.


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## alserrod

Kpc21 said:


> Passport at the police station? What does the police have to do with passports, except for that they are entitled to check them?



To ask for one new or renewal, in Spain, ID cards and passports are issued by police (and driving licence by traffic authorities). Thus, any issue about them, police station (and not all of them).
To avoid queues, in some of them it is compulsory to ask an appointment by internet.

I just walked near one of them and entered to ask in the desk


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## haddockman

In Bulgaria the police issue ID cards, passports, driving licences, vehicle registration documents and number plates.


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## MattiG

alserrod said:


> To ask for one new or renewal, in Spain, ID cards and passports are issued by police (and driving licence by traffic authorities). Thus, any issue about them, police station (and not all of them).
> To avoid queues, in some of them it is compulsory to ask an appointment by internet.
> 
> I just walked near one of them and entered to ask in the desk


Quite similar to what happens here at the other end of Europe:

1) Easiest to go to an authorized photographer shop. The photo taken is immediately uploaded onto the photo server of the police.

2a) If the biometric credentials known by the police are less than six years old, the passport can be applied via internet.

2b) Otherwise, a visit at a police station is needed. Best to book the time in advance in order to avoid getting stucked in a queue. Normally, the visit takes no longer than 10 minutes.

3) The passport arrives in about a week to a service point of a nation-wide service provider.


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## alserrod

I agree... at least, time to deal it is shorter than a long time ago.
For my first ID card and passport... ID cards took about 15-30 days. They gave a paper as receipt... and it was useful only to open a bank account, never as identification (I remember when I went to fill my daughter after born, another person had his ID card but only receipt for the mother... it wasn't allowed and he could fill the baby only being him, his father. Mother should have to wait for definitely ID card)

Nowadays they require to have specific photos (no shadow, no shanny, all the eyes to be seen, at leas one ear...) and biometric (finger) and signature is taken in the place... and in 20 minutes you quit police station with the ID card in your hand.


Passport were always faster. Formerly 1-2 days long, nowadays at the moment.


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## mappero

Kpc21 said:


> By the way, when did your countries (if you have ID's at all) switch from an ID in form of a booklet, filled in by hand, to a plastic card? In Poland it was somewhere around 2000 (they were in use to 2008), and more or less the same with driving licenses.
> .


All Schengen countries are obliged to have a ID cards. One of the reason why UK is not of a Schengen country - because Brits historical they are not carrying any documents with them. The Police in UK need to confirm your identity, not a person stopped by Police...


----------



## Kpc21

alserrod said:


> To ask for one new or renewal, in Spain, ID cards and passports are issued by police (and driving licence by traffic authorities). Thus, any issue about them, police station (and not all of them).
> To avoid queues, in some of them it is compulsory to ask an appointment by internet.


It seems, it's so in many countries with the police.

And, to tell the truth, it actually makes sense.

I don't know what about other countries, but here, the police belongs wholly to the government.

Our voivodeships have two types of public administration. First of all, there are marshall offices. They are subordinate to the marshall, who is elected by the voivodeship council ("sejmik województwa" - while the lower house of the parliament of the country is "sejm", the word "sejmik" is a diminutive form of the word "sejm"). And the voivodeship council (sejmik) is elected in the local elections. So it's a local form of administration, independent of the state. Secondly, there are voivodeship offices. Subordinate to the voivode, who is elected by the prime minister. So it's a governmental form of administration in the voivodeship.

So the passport are issued by an institution of governmental administration, and it would be also the case if they were issued by the police.

It's different with the ID's, which are issued by the city office, subordinate to the mayor, elected in the local elections directly - so by the local, non-governmental administration.

Probably it has something to do with the international law, that the passports have to be issued by governments. And the ID's do not (actually, they don't have to exist at all, which we can see in the UK, for example). But since the police is - at least in Poland, but probably in most countries too - a governmental institution, technically, it can issue passports too, and it makes much sense, since it's a governmental institution, which is closest to the citizen (there are police stations in most towns). Unlike our voivodeship offices, which are only in big cities.

But in Poland, the police isn't really dealing with the administrative stuff which doesn't have anything to do directly with the crimes, offences and law enforcement. At least not on the citizen-government line.

No administration units in Poland actually require registration over the Internet (the elder people often don't know how to use a computer, so it would be difficult) and if you have to register at all (which you can do just there or on the phone), it's usually in more complex cases, for example if you need to talk to someone more important. Not in standard situations like applying for a passport.

Although sometimes they allow to register over the internet for the specific time, so that you don't have to wait in the queue.



MattiG said:


> 1) Easiest to go to an authorized photographer shop. The photo taken is immediately uploaded onto the photo server of the police.


In Poland, the photographer doesn't have to be authorized. Actually, if you really want, you can take the photo on your own, they may don't like it, but they have to accept it  You just have to stick to all the criteria for the dimensions of the photo, that it must be en face, you cannot smile too much, and so on - probably the same in the whole EU. The photographers usually have special computer programs which help frame the photo according to the criteria.

Both IDs and passports take a few weeks to issue. They are printed in a central, governmental printing house in Warsaw and sent to the specific office. Although I remember that I needed once a passport to be issued within a week, my parents (I was underage then) talked to a manager in the voivodeship office and it was possible to make it faster.

So, passports are issued by the voivodeship (by the governmental administration, although local, non-governmental administration exists too in the voivodeships), IDs by the municipality (by the local administration). Driving licenses, license plates and registration certificates - by the county (a unit between the municipality and the voivodeship), by the local administration. The county office ("starostwo") is subordinate to the starost, elected by the county council, which is elected directly in the local elections.


----------



## Kanadzie

mappero said:


> All Schengen countries are obliged to have a ID cards. One of the reason why UK is not of a Schengen country - because Brits historical they are not carrying any documents with them. The Police in UK need to confirm your identity, not a person stopped by Police...


What a shame the continental countries have all jumped on the national ID card bandwagon... strong state and weak people hno:
Perhaps, "American" style of always showing a driver's license is equally bad, particularly now that the state databases are all effectively networked by IT advancements... but still...


----------



## Robi_damian

Kanadzie said:


> What a shame the continental countries have all jumped on the national ID card bandwagon... strong state and weak people hno:
> Perhaps, "American" style of always showing a driver's license is equally bad, particularly now that the state databases are all effectively networked by IT advancements... but still...


Also, the number of people getting a driving licence is falling. They need some other form of ID to operate. Without an ID card, how are they supposed to travel around?


----------



## Kpc21

Well, there is generally much too much invigilation in the world nowadays.

30 years ago, the people here were still fighting against it from the side of Soviets and their followers who were ruling here. Now... Americans are going much further and it seems to be OK for the people.

Because nobody uses this knowledge against them.

Nobody does it now.

But much less was enough for communists to destroy lives of many people.

By the way... does Norway have IDs?

They are continental. Peninsular, but still continental.

And they are in Schengen, though not in the EU.



Robi_damian said:


> Also, the number of people getting a driving licence is falling. They need some other form of ID to operate. Without an ID card, how are they supposed to travel around?


In the central and eastern Europe (OK, I talk about Poland, but I believe it's the same in all the other countries around - in the directions other than west and north) it's still raising. There is still more and more cars.

At one point, it will stop and not grow any more, same with the driving licenses (currently, there is still many elder people without them and young people usually try to get one as soon as possible), maybe even it will start sinking very slightly (if the quality of the public transport will be improving or if better means of transport will be invented) - but now it's raising.

But there are always some people without driving licenses.


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## Kanadzie

^^ Poland is probably a unique case from a global perspective because public transit is extremely common between cities and in rural areas, which probably doesn't make economic sense if the country continues to improve economically (people could / should just drive their own car, e.g. American style). There are so many random bus stop in the middle of the forest it is crazy to me :lol: I can't even imagine how grueling such trips must be aboard an old Autosan with the engine cover propped up with some rope so the engine doesn't overheat over 50 km/h...


----------



## Kpc21

Most western-European countries have much better public transportation systems in the rural areas than Poland.

And it's less and less common to see an old Autosan H9 belonging to a company created based on a local branch of the former state "PKS" bus operator. What you see now more and more frequently is a Mercedes Sprinter minibus, operated by a local family business, with so many seats packed inside so that if you want to sit straight, you must push your knees in the following seat so that they hurt you. Often overcrowded (more than 10 persons standing in such a minibus are nothing weird) and with no timetable available to the public. Or if there is one - the real timetable is totally different, or only some departures from this timetable actually depart.

And this is true only if the route makes an economical sense for the operator. In the actually rural areas - you usually don't have any public transportation at all.

The western-European countries, especially Germany, are a totally different world, with bus lines operated with normal, full-length, modern buses, which go to each village (unless it has a railway station) and are covered by a common ticket system with the city buses in the nearby city and with the regional trains.


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## alserrod

By the way, a French bus stop just in the border

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.8065...mBachlRaOS3A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=es

turn right and you will see former booths in the mountain pass. Next building in white is inside Spain

Despite it operates only in summer it is not possible to make a link with Spanish network. Nearests stop is a two daily bus 5 km away all the year (one on saturday) but not till the border, only till a ski resort.


----------



## Kpc21

Currently, at the Polish-Slovakian border, some activists are trying to make the local authorities, bus operators and the parliaments do something to improve the local cross-border bus connections. Because they are developed very weakly. Practically, the only sensible connection is the Zakopane-Poprad line, operated by the Strama company, running only in summer holidays.

In Łysa Polana/Jaworzyna Tatrzańska, there are bus stops very close to the border at both sides. But the connections at the Slovakian side are very rare, like three or four departures and arrivals in a day, while at the Polish side they are frequent, but they have no timetable and they close quite early in the evening.

The bus stop at the Polish side - you can even see a bus: https://goo.gl/maps/ogfRZ8hcHqH2

The Slovakian "zastavka": https://goo.gl/maps/2xJDDwQn3ZS2

The word "zastavka" is one of those which show why Czech or Slovakian is funny for us, Polish-speaking people  "Zastawka" is in Polish a medical term, it's one of the things in your heart which opens and closes, so that the blood can flow in only one direction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_valve - it seems that English people call it just a valve, but we don't call it a valve, like one on a pipeline, in Polish). For Czechs and Slovaks it's a public transport stop 

Our authorities claim that the EU doesn't allow creating such connections, but it's not true, the EU encourages to do it. But, the politicians must always find an excuse.

This is the action: https://www.facebook.com/polskaslowacja/

On our side, the main problem is that our authorities usually do not subsidize the bus transportation at all, except for bigger towns and cities. But it's rather rare in village areas. On the other hand, Slovakia forbids so called cabotage, they don't want Polish private operators make competition to Slovak subsidized local bus lines - because Slovaks subsidize local bus transportation.

By the way... Rysy mountain at the Slovak side:









(photo Małgorzata Smyk)

It's next to the "Pod Rysami" mountain hut. Located here: https://goo.gl/maps/v9sdcdvxwWJ2

Unfortunately, people report that they waited long for the bus and no bus appeared 

http://phototrans.pl/14,799005,0,Przystanek_Chata_pod_Rysmi_.html
http://hemli-w-gorach.blogspot.com/2013/04/schronisko-pod-rysami.html

"Zastavka na znamenie" - "request stop".


----------



## Pak_Forever

*Pakistan - Afghanistan Border

Chaman Border, Balochistan, Pakistan*


----------



## Pak_Forever

*Pakistan - China Border

Khunjerab Pass, Gilgit Baltistan, Pakistan*


----------



## Pak_Forever

*Pakistan - Afghanistan Border

Torkham Border, F.A.T.A, Pakistan*


----------



## Pak_Forever

*Pakistan - China Border

Khunjerab Pass, Gilgit Baltistan, Pakistan*


----------



## Rusonaldo

Border crossing Frankfurt / Słubice (D / PL)


----------



## Corvinus

An inaccuracy with Google maps border lines, or does the Swiss St. Margrethen motorway junction ramp slightly reach into Austrian soil?


----------



## MattiG

Corvinus said:


> An inaccuracy with Google maps border lines, or does the Swiss St. Margrethen motorway junction ramp slightly reach into Austrian soil?


This is what Search.ch and Bing show:


----------



## xrtn2

Pak_Forever said:


> *Pakistan - China Border
> 
> Khunjerab Pass, Gilgit Baltistan, Pakistan*


Great picture


----------



## alserrod

It is a pity street view doesn't approach already to that corner....


----------



## Pak_Forever

*Pakistan - Iran Border

Taftan Border, Balochistan, Pakistan*


----------



## Pak_Forever

*Pakistan - India Border at LOC ( Line Of Control )

Right Side Of The River: Azad Jammu & Kashmir ( Pakistan )
Left Side Of The River: Jammu & Kashmir ( India )
*


----------



## Pak_Forever

*Pakistan - India Border

Khokrapar Border, Sindh, Pakistan *


----------



## Pak_Forever

*Pakistan - India Border

Ganda Singh Wala Border, Punjab, Pakistan*


----------



## tfd543

the new Schengen border code will enter into force 7th of April at external EU borders. This means that not only are non-EU citizens subject to more strict control at air/sea/land borders, but it will also be imposed on EU-citizens as well. In practice, this will give longer queues at land borders from now on. Be prepared for hassles when summer season begins !


----------



## alserrod

tfd543 said:


> the new Schengen border code will enter into force 7th of April at external EU borders. This means that not only are non-EU citizens subject to more strict control at air/sea/land borders, but it will also be imposed on EU-citizens as well. In practice, this will give longer queues at land borders from now on. Be prepared for hassles when summer season begins !


F*****mother.... a long time without crossing borders and I guess I will have to cross to France on Saturday 8th........

Will I have any extra control or just drive through?


----------



## Junkie

tfd543 said:


> the new Schengen border code will enter into force 7th of April at external EU borders. This means that not only are non-EU citizens subject to more strict control at air/sea/land borders, but it will also be imposed on EU-citizens as well. In practice, this will give longer queues at land borders from now on. Be prepared for hassles when summer season begins !


You'd better be happy. I live in the Balkans and sometimes I wait for 3+ hours. And its a real hassle.


----------



## Tachi

alserrod said:


> F*****mother.... a long time without crossing borders and I guess I will have to cross to France on Saturday 8th........
> 
> 
> 
> Will I have any extra control or just drive through?



If you enter France from a non-Schengen country enjoy your stay at the border


----------



## tfd543

alserrod said:


> F*****mother.... a long time without crossing borders and I guess I will have to cross to France on Saturday 8th........
> 
> 
> 
> Will I have any extra control or just drive through?




You should be fine. France is not an external EU country. Anyway, the extra control is now that you will be scanned in many databases and that can take some time.


----------



## tfd543

Junkie said:


> You'd better be happy. I live in the Balkans and sometimes I wait for 3+ hours. And its a real hassle.




Yea its pretty daunting. My only tip is to use secondary borders. I can console you that EU Roaming will be abolished so you can surf on the internet while waiting.


----------



## alserrod

Tachi said:


> If you enter France from a non-Schengen country enjoy your stay at the border


from Spain, through Pyrenees, luckely


----------



## YU-AMC

Junkie said:


> That fence is the new "Iron Curtain". But I guess this one is in fact effective.


Sounds like a poor attempt from the EU to show a middle finger to Erdogan. 

I bet he already has the team digging the tunnels. I am sure the Americans would have that fence along Mexico already if it worked.


----------



## keokiracer

^^ The Americasn have had a fence along the Mexican border for years...


----------



## Balkanada

tfd543 said:


> the new Schengen border code will enter into force 7th of April at external EU borders. This means that not only are non-EU citizens subject to more strict control at air/sea/land borders, but it will also be imposed on EU-citizens as well. In practice, this will give longer queues at land borders from now on. Be prepared for hassles when summer season begins !


Is this going to change anything within Schengen? I was planning on taking a day trip to Lugano while I'm in Milan so should I have my passport with me on the train just in case?


----------



## Tachi

You always need your passport or id when going abroad. Authorities need to be able to verify if your stay is legal.


----------



## Corvinus

Swiss Border Guard nowadays is on the lookout for illegals coming in from Italy, since many of those landed in Italy want to proceed to Germany. 
So even being an internal Schengen border, entry w/o a valid ID may be denied.


----------



## tfd543

Balkanada said:


> Is this going to change anything within Schengen? I was planning on taking a day trip to Lugano while I'm in Milan so should I have my passport with me on the train just in case?




Only external EU borders are affected. I know CH has a special status in this but its still regarded as an inner-country. Yea just take it with you despite being in the passport free zone. 

All in all, Eastern European borders will be subject to this extra control in addition to Balkan except Slovenia... i am not sure about the microstates. Have to look at the details if it is Schengen and/or EU country..


----------



## tfd543

Btw, i still dont get why Croatia is still a candidate Schengen country. With all the funds they got to improve borders, they are still not even considered to get in. A brand new airport terminal was opened some days ago in Zagreb that meets all the criteria. Lets hope the land borders will get an overhaul soon. Just think Slovenia made it in only 3 years from EU to EU Schengen.


----------



## Tachi

tfd543 said:


> Only external EU borders are affected. I know CH has a special status in this but its still regarded as an inner-country. Yea just take it with you despite being in the passport free zone.



Schengen doesn't mean it's a passport free zone. It means you can cross inner Schengen borders without showing your passport or ID, except with extraordinary situations. As a foreigner you still have to be able to identify yourself and thus to be able to prove that your stay is legal. Your means of identification of your nationality could be a passport, ID or a residence permit. 
Switzerland doesn't have any special status regarding Schengen. It is a Schengen member state.


----------



## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> Btw, i still dont get why Croatia is still a candidate Schengen country. With all the funds they got to improve borders, they are still not even considered to get in. A brand new airport terminal was opened some days ago in Zagreb that meets all the criteria. Lets hope the land borders will get an overhaul soon. Just think Slovenia made it in only 3 years from EU to EU Schengen.


Croatia still isn't technically ready, especially with airport infrastructure at some airports. Most of the land crossings are ready, though. It's also political, as it would be impossible to admit Croatia without admitting Romania and Bulgaria, which no-one wants to do now. 

Having said this, I still think there should be far more crossings with BiH, especially in places such as Martin Brod where there's a huge distance between international border crossings.


----------



## alserrod

AFAIK yes, why?

In this case is French citizens who born abroad... and they will be French providing they will be recorded in the administration located for that area. This is, not any council or so in the surroundings but consulate in Barcelona


----------



## haddockman

I was just wondering if they did. I know that France and most other EU states do not grant citizenship unless one of the parents is already a citizen or long term legal resident.


----------



## alserrod

haddockman said:


> I was just wondering if they did. I know that France and most other EU states do not grant citizenship unless one of the parents is already a citizen or long term legal resident.


Sorry for misunderstanding... I answered conversely. No citizenship for foreign people who are born in Spain.

On the other hand, hospital urgencies and birth cares are given even if you are in illegal situation or you do not have right for them. They first offer them and later ask for papers and nothing happens if you do not have health care papers.

Moroccan citizens can cross border to Ceuta and Melilla and stay for a day and back home (and return tomorrow and so on...). That's why so many people are born there. Free and hospitals aren't big but give same services as any other one in mainland. As usual, two hospital days for a normal birth, five if caesarea is needed. Doctor, nurse and so on free and guess why you ask for main given names in those hospitals and they are Arabic ones.

But of course... they do not have Spanish citizenship even they were born in Spain (really, you will see a lot of strongly pregnant women in those cities, waiting for time for born)


----------



## Eulanthe

I've found something very interesting - it's an article from the acclaimed Vreme from Serbia in 1991, talking about the introduction of border controls between Slovenia and Croatia. I remember we were talking about it before on here, and no-one knew for certain when the controls were introduced.

Well - the answer - 8th October 1991. 

http://www2.scc.rutgers.edu/serbiandigest/8/t8-6.htm


----------



## tfd543

Eulanthe said:


> I've found something very interesting - it's an article from the acclaimed Vreme from Serbia in 1991, talking about the introduction of border controls between Slovenia and Croatia. I remember we were talking about it before on here, and no-one knew for certain when the controls were introduced.
> 
> 
> 
> Well - the answer - 8th October 1991.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www2.scc.rutgers.edu/serbiandigest/8/t8-6.htm




Yes i asked for it once. Thanks for sharing pal. Its quite late though since independence declaration in summer. Just 1 month before Vukovar fell.


----------



## Junkie

Eulanthe said:


> I've found something very interesting - it's an article from the acclaimed Vreme from Serbia in 1991, talking about the introduction of border controls between Slovenia and Croatia. I remember we were talking about it before on here, and no-one knew for certain when the controls were introduced.
> 
> Well - the answer - 8th October 1991.
> 
> http://www2.scc.rutgers.edu/serbiandigest/8/t8-6.htm


The state army had the control over the borders, out of which they slowly withdrew and the local government started to implement its own control. That happened in my country also, along the border with Serbia (including Kosovo). But just after the army peacefully withdraw, the tanks departed to Bosnia.


----------



## Alex_ZR

tfd543 said:


> Yes i asked for it once. Thanks for sharing pal. Its quite late though since independence declaration in summer. Just 1 month before Vukovar fell.





> The Croatian referendum on independence was held in May 1991, with 93% of voters supporting the independence. On 25 June the Croatian parliament(Croatian: Sabor) proclaimed the Croatian independence. Seven days later, on 7 July, Croatia as well as Slovenia signed the Brioni Declaration in which the two countries agreed to suspend all declarations and acts passed by the Croatian and Slovenian parliaments related to those states' secession from Yugoslavia for a period of three months. During that time the Croatian War of Independence started.
> 
> *On 8 October, the Sabor decided to end relations with Yugoslavia*, in the Decision on the termination of the state and legal ties with other republics and provinces of Yugoslavia.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Day_(Croatia)


----------



## Eulanthe

Thank you Alex, it makes perfect sense that Slovenia and Croatia would have started to build border crossings on that day. 

So - now the next challenge is to find pictures of these early border crossings between Croatia and Slovenia. Finding pictures of the borders with Austria and Italy is easy, but I'm struggling to find anything from the early 1990's between Slovenia and Croatia.

Any chance that anyone speaking a local language can look for pictures too?


----------



## Junkie

I found this pic. Dates from the summer of 1991.


----------



## italystf

^^ I think it's the border with Italy at Pesek, near Trieste.


----------



## Alex_ZR

This should be near SLO-HR border in June 1991, 1 km from Bregana:


----------



## TEBC

Pak_Forever said:


> *Pakistan - India Border
> 
> Ganda Singh Wala Border, Punjab, Pakistan*


What is happening here?


----------



## TEBC

tfd543 said:


> You should be fine. France is not an *external EU country*. Anyway, the extra control is now that you will be scanned in many databases and that can take some time.


what is an external EU country?


----------



## cinxxx

TEBC said:


> what is an external EU country?


I'm guessing he means an EU or Schengen country that borders a non-EU / non-Schengen country.


----------



## tfd543

cinxxx said:


> I'm guessing he means an EU or Schengen country that borders a non-EU / non-Schengen country.


you took the words right out of my mouth, yes. However I found out that its actually not just external EU countries like for instance Hungary-Serbia but also external Schengen countries. This means the Slovenia-Croatia border will also be regulated by this new act.hno:


----------



## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> you took the words right out of my mouth, yes. However I found out that its actually not just external EU countries like for instance Hungary-Serbia but also external Schengen countries. This means the Slovenia-Croatia border will also be regulated by this new act.hno:


In theory, at least. In practice, there's no way they're going to scan and check every document at crossings like Macelj or Rupa in summer. It also doesn't seem likely that they'll scan every document at small crossings in towns, such as my favourite Rogatec/Hum na Sutli - where currently anyone with local plates and ID cards is waved through.

I suspect the rules will only rigorously be applied on external EU borders.


----------



## tfd543

Eulanthe said:


> In theory, at least. In practice, there's no way they're going to scan and check every document at crossings like Macelj or Rupa in summer. It also doesn't seem likely that they'll scan every document at small crossings in towns, such as my favourite Rogatec/Hum na Sutli - where currently anyone with local plates and ID cards is waved through.
> 
> I suspect the rules will only rigorously be applied on external EU borders.


Lets hope but people will still get sun-baked. Just ask them one by one at the Spain-Gibraltar border.hno:


----------



## Junkie

italystf said:


> ^^ I think it's the border with Italy at Pesek, near Trieste.


No. It has no security booths.


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> I've found something very interesting - it's an article from the acclaimed Vreme from Serbia in 1991, talking about the introduction of border controls between Slovenia and Croatia. I remember we were talking about it before on here, and no-one knew for certain when the controls were introduced.
> 
> Well - the answer - 8th October 1991.
> 
> http://www2.scc.rutgers.edu/serbiandigest/8/t8-6.htm


This is not surprising since that's when moratorium on independence activities ended.



Junkie said:


> No. It has no security booths.


It does, but they aren't on the photo. As italystf said, it's the Italian border between Trieste and Rijeka. This was the same place:









http://www.red-alliance.net/forum/index.php?topic=24417.0


----------



## alserrod

tfd543 said:


> Lets hope but people will still get sun-baked. Just ask them one by one at the Spain-Gibraltar border.hno:


still possible southern: Spain-Morocco.

(still more: France-Brazil)


----------



## Verso

Are there any major traffic jams at the French and British sides of the Channel Tunnel?


----------



## bogdymol

Julien06200 said:


> Does anyone knows if UE non-Schengen countries apply the same policy (i.e. scannng every ID) ?


Romania yes.


----------



## Singidunum

MattiG said:


> Nothing wrong.
> 
> I do not believe a delay of 1-2 hours at the external borders would qualify as a disproportionate impact on traffic flows.


External to what? Croatia is an EU member state. Not to mention that there is a lot of daily commute going on between Zagreb and Slovenia. If you add 2 hours on that, it's destructive, it will affect the economy. Also Istrian tourism relies on Slovenian weekend holidaymakers, but you won't see them much this summer if they have to wait for hours at the border. And I can't even imagine what it will look like in general during the summer when millions of tourists from Central Europe start flocking Croatia together with Turkish gastarbeiters. The entire Slovenia will be clogged.


----------



## mitasis

Heavy jams (up to 7 km) are reported also from yesterday on Greek-Bulgarian border in Promahonas/Kulata. Greece and Bulgaria are both EU members, but only Greece is also a Schengen member, so this border is considered as an external Schengen border. All id's and passports both greek and bulgarian are scanned by greek authorities. It is obvious that during summer months, when thousand of Bulgarians are heading to Northern greek seashores for holidays there will be huge problems.


----------



## Verso

News: the Slovenian police have stopped checking all passengers.


----------



## eucitizen

One kind of solution could be to allow Croatia, Romania and Bulgaria to have access to the Schengen system and database at least and do the job of external EU countries. I would allow that access also to non EU members like Serbia or Macedonia. So in this case the external controls would be only to UA, RUS, BY and Turkey.


----------



## Julien06200

I wonder how they will apply this policy this summer, with thousands og cars crossing these borders daily.


----------



## MattiG

Singidunum said:


> External to what? Croatia is an EU member state.


You are not aware that the Schengen area is not the same thing as the EU?


----------



## tfd543

Verso said:


> News: the Slovenian police have stopped checking all passengers.




What does that mean ? How come ?


----------



## Verso

tfd543 said:


> What does that mean ? How come ?


I don't know about Slovenia, but Croatia has called the European Commissioner for Migration, Home Affairs and Citizenship, Dimitris Avramopoulos, and agreed with him to temporarily stop checking all passengers on its border with Slovenia and Hungary (I don't know whether Hungarians are still checking everyone).


----------



## Suburbanist

After the civil war in, did Croatia put minefields in the border with Slovenia like the ones at the Bosnia - Croatia border?


----------



## Corvinus

Verso said:


> (I don't know whether Hungarians are still checking everyone).


Saturday's Hungarian news do not mention anything about suspension of the new "systematic" controls. Hours of waiting time for exiting Hungary are reported again.

According to the police border information, the longest waiting times of 3 hours has manifested at the Csanádpalota motorway crossing (H -> RO), but also at Röszke (H -> SRB), it took 2 hours to cross. 

The prime minister's chief security adviser stated that those hit hardest by these new extended controls are "our own citizens", who in most cases have no malicious intentions when crossing a border.

http://www.hirado.hu/2017/04/08/jelentos-torlodas-alakult-ki-a-magyarorszagi-schengeni-hatarokon/


----------



## Gyorgy

Suburbanist said:


> After the civil war in, did Croatia put minefields in the border with Slovenia like the ones at the Bosnia - Croatia border?


Minefields were on the front lines, not international borders.


----------



## keber

Waiting times are now much shorter as Croatia also stopped checking all passengers on borders.


----------



## piotr71

About Istrian borders, in Italian.
http://www.triesteprima.it/cronaca/istria-confini-s-blindati-sospesa-la-direttiva-europea-anti-terrorismo.html


----------



## Eulanthe

Suburbanist said:


> After the civil war in, did Croatia put minefields in the border with Slovenia like the ones at the Bosnia - Croatia border?


No, not at all. The border remained pretty much wide open until around 2000-1 when Slovenia started to prepare for EU entry. The real changes came in 2004 when Slovenia closed many unofficial crossings that were used by locals. 

As for the checks, it was obvious that EU countries with borders would discontinue these checks within a day or so. There's just no way that every passport/ID card can be scanned on the busiest borders - if anything, it would make much more sense to set up a system whereby cars are randomly selected for scanning of documents

I spent an hour at Gruskovje once observing the controls in the middle of summer, and the vast majority of cars were waved through on both entry and exit. The thought of scanning every single car is just ridiculous and makes no sense. 

Reports from Gibraltar suggest that nothing has changed and that the vast majority of ID's/passports are not being scanned. There was some trouble a couple of days ago, but that was rather likely to be related to the issue of Gibraltar rather than the new rules.


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> it would make much more sense to set up a system whereby cars are randomly selected for scanning of documents


Not randomly, but selectively—meaning they select more suspicious people.


----------



## Kanadzie

It's kind of interesting there is such issues

If you're crossing USA border from Canada for example, they are scanning passport of everyone, every time... is it just manpower issue?


----------



## Kpc21

Verso said:


> Not randomly, but selectively—meaning they select more suspicious people.


If you actually are the suspect, you usually do everything not to look suspicious, so it might not work.

@Kanadzie: USA and Canada are enormous countries, so I believe that people don't have a need for travelling between them so often as through the borders of a mini-country like Slovenia.

Something being a trip to a neighboring state for someone living in the US is a trip to a neighboring country for someone living in Slovenia. Or even in Croatia.

But... these people had to live with strict borders through the whole iron curtain period. Maybe not between Croatia and Slovenia, as they were parts of a single country then - but, for example, the border between Hungary and Romania was for sure strictly guarded. You had to get a passport, you had to wait at the border, they checked you thoroughly and you could never be sure they let you through. Yet it was anyway much easier than going to a western-European country (including Italy or Greece), for which you needed a special passport (which you had to return to the state authorities once you were back, and it was not so easy to get it, practically impossible if you have ever done anything against the communism, which included even saying things e.g. about the history the government did not like publically), and a big problem was the currency difference (eastern-European money meant nothing in the West, western-European money was worth really much in the East - I don't really understand the reasons of that, but it was so; and, in addition, exchanging the money between the Eastern and Western currencies in the East was possible only on the black market). But there wasn't anything like Schengen on the eastern side of the iron curtain, and the governments were making it rather difficult to travel to another country. Actually, from what I know, there still exists a region in the far east of Russia, where people are not allowed to travel freely.

And people did live with that.


----------



## Junkie

From yesterday on, to cross the Serbian/Croatian Bajakovo and further on to enter Slovenia you will need more than 10 hours of waiting. And additional papers for many.
I remember when the Polish or Romanian citizens tried to go to the west when the Iron Curtain was still alive. Its the same thing.


----------



## Kpc21

Well. I remember the radio announcing daily the number of hours of waiting at the border crossings on all the sides of our country. Even after we joined EU.

Although it probably concerned trucks rather than private cars. But it's still a norm on the crossings on our eastern border.

I was once going to Ukraine by bus, with a school trip (we were already in Schengen for a few years - it doesn't affect this border specifically, I want to place it in the time). We waited something like 2 hours in one direction and a similar amount of time in the opposite one. But I heard then that sometimes it happens to be much longer.

What I remembered - that it was like 2 or 3 buses in the queue in front of us (there was a special gate specifically for buses). And the checking took them so long. Just a school trip, of 15-year-old kids.


----------



## Verso

Kpc21 said:


> I remember the radio announcing daily the number of hours of waiting at the border crossings on all the sides of our country.


Same here, it was always "2 hours of waiting for trucks to get into Hungary".


----------



## italystf

I remember when the 80 km between Monfalcone and Umag required hours in summer weekends, when there were still border controls between Italy and Slovenia and there was no motorway between Padriciano and Rabuiese.
I hope we won't go back to those times due to stupid EU regulations.
I planned to do a daytrip to Pula on Easter day, but I will postpone it to better days. It's already a long drive from home (2.5h each way in normal conditions, more if I'll use local streets to avoid SLO vignette), so I don't want to sit the whole day in my car.


----------



## Kpc21

Verso said:


> Same here, it was always "2 hours of waiting for trucks to get into Hungary".


Well, here it was often exactly like 10 hours or 12 hours.

But maybe it was about trucks.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> I planned to do a daytrip to Pula on Easter day, but I will postpone it to better days. It's already a long drive from home (2.5h each way in normal conditions, more if I'll use local streets to avoid SLO vignette), so I don't want to sit the whole day in my car.


I know a way, but don't tell anyone. :gossip:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Verso said:


> Are there any major traffic jams at the French and British sides of the Channel Tunnel?


I went to and came back from France yesterday, no queues in Dover or Calais.


----------



## piotr71

^^
Haha, I have already done this one, just with a small difference on _[SLO] border. Road worth recommendation - really scenic and without congestion, even in high season. Some places, like: Roć, Buzet and Hum are also woth a visit._


----------



## Verso

^^ Did you drive via Rakitovec (like in my link) or via Sočerga?


----------



## Kpc21

Polish-Ukrainian border.



KarolZubel said:


> Medyka:


Live view here, in the bottom: http://www.podkarpackie.kas.gov.pl/...col_id=column-2&p_p_col_pos=1&p_p_col_count=2


----------



## Suburbanist

During the communist period, did soviet republics have borders between themselves? If not, how quickly did Russia and Belarus and Ukraine built up a physical border infrastructure?


----------



## Corvinus

This is one from Wiki, showing the S/N border in 1934, looking into Norway. Location not given. 
The handedness of traffic was different in the two neighbouring countries, therefore the alert in 4 languages to keep right in Norway. Sweden only changed to RHT in the 1960s.


----------



## Eulanthe

Suburbanist said:


> During the communist period, did soviet republics have borders between themselves? If not, how quickly did Russia and Belarus and Ukraine built up a physical border infrastructure?


No, borders were wide open in the Soviet republics between each other. You could drive freely from Vilnius to Tallinn for example, with the only real difference being the languages used in each republic. 

Borders were very quickly put up. Probably the most famous example is the Medininkai massacre - but there are other examples too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_OMON_assaults_on_Lithuanian_border_posts

From what I remember, these were only customs posts, not identity control posts. Those came later - from what I remember, it took a while for the Soviet Army after the coup to actually withdraw from international borders (such as the PL-LT border). On the former internal borders, I have a feeling that while there were border guards very early, they didn't start performing identity controls until they enacted new migrations post-independence. 

I've found several references to the establishing of border posts in the Baltics:

Latvia/Belarus set up mutually agreed 50 border posts in August 1990
Estonia set up over 28 border posts at the same time while closing other roads
Latvia/Lithuania set up posts at some time in 1990
Border controls were only under the full control of the individual republics once the Soviet Union ended

It was much slower elsewhere, as the CIS agreement was supposed to mean freedom of movement of people and goods. Russia set up customs posts in mid 1992 with the countries that refused to join the CIS customs union - Ukraine, the Baltic States, Georgia. It seems that by the end of 1993, they had all built barriers with each other, and even the Baltic States failed to make a customs union before joining the EU.


----------



## Fatfield

^^^^

I crossed the Hungarian-Romanian border in the 80's when communism was still in full flow. There was a wooden hut on the Romanian side were we had to stop and get our travel documents checked but the Hungarian side was more up to date. There was also quite a large no-mans land area between the two. The Romanians were very strict but the Hungarians didn't really care and waved us through on the way back.

Whilst we were in Bucharest I bumped into an East German who'd travelled there from Dresden (I think). He had to have documentation to travel via each Soviet Bloc country and was stopped at every border to get his documentation checked.


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> I know a way, but don't tell anyone. :gossip:


oh, the Osp thing. i was again there at monday


----------



## Junkie

Fatfield said:


> ^^^^
> 
> I crossed the Hungarian-Romanian border in the 80's when communism was still in full flow. There was a wooden hut on the Romanian side were we had to stop and get our travel documents checked but the Hungarian side was more up to date. There was also quite a large no-mans land area between the two. The Romanians were very strict but the Hungarians didn't really care and waved us through on the way back.
> 
> Whilst we were in Bucharest I bumped into an East German who'd travelled there from Dresden (I think). He had to have documentation to travel via each Soviet Bloc country and was stopped at every border to get his documentation checked.


It was easy to cross if you were a westerner. But the opposite was not true. If some of their citizens wanted to visit the West they needed permissions and papers like visa or so. 
Once I've heard a Czech tourist saying we are very lucky to visit SFRY(dissolved now). From today's point of view its funny.


----------



## piotr71

Verso said:


> ^^ Did you drive via Rakitovec (like in my link) or via Sočerga?


I double checked and yes, it was Sočerga. Does it make any particular difference?


----------



## MattiG

Corvinus said:


> This is one from Wiki, showing the S/N border in 1934, looking into Norway. Location not given.


The location is Kornsjø at the south end of Norway. The roads 101 (Norway) and 166 (Sweden) nowadays meet at the border.


----------



## bratislav

Junkie said:


> It was easy to cross if you were a westerner. But the opposite was not true. If some of their citizens wanted to visit the West they needed permissions and papers like visa or so.
> Once I've heard a Czech tourist saying we are very lucky to visit SFRY(dissolved now). From today's point of view its funny.


As I remeber of what was told me by friends who lived in ČSSR. and later in ČSFR (Czechoslovakia) they needed to be cheked by Štb (State security) before even they get their own passaport. After that they need to ask for visa to get out of country (state security check again) an that was for travell to socialist countries, and it was in 60. and 70. They can travell visa free in 80. to any socialist country excepet to Yugoslavia. We were so lucky to have our Tito, and freedom that we have.


----------



## Suburbanist

I though visiting Yugoslavia was forbidden entirely for people of Varsaw Pact area, like they were forbidden to travel to Albania, period.


----------



## Ices77

Yes, in commies time Yugoslavia was considered as a part of let´s say _Golden West_ with all western culture allowed. Quite a contrary to what it is now, when people from former YU get a job in our factories, anyway, I think we welcome them


----------



## Kpc21

Golden? Well, the authorities called it rather "Rotten West".


----------



## Verso

piotr71 said:


> I double checked and yes, it was Sočerga. Does it make any particular difference?


The road via Sočerga is well known among Slovenes and Croats. It's far less trafficked than e.g. the road via Dragonja, but in the worst days it gets crowded as well, so it would get even worse with a strict border control. The road via Rakitovec on the other hand is virtually unknown (probably because it's a local border crossing, but EU citizens can use it). Even _I_ have never driven there.


----------



## Kpc21

By the way - I got interested by the topic, and by reading some forums, about history and not only, it seems that it was not so difficult in Poland to get a passport, even to the Western countries, although it depended on the specific period (it seems, the 70's were most liberal) and on who you were. For example, if you had already been abroad and you hadn't returned within the specified time, or if someone from your family had gone abroad and hadn't returned, you had very little chance of getting a passport. Or if you had had any contact with some data the state didn't want to reveal to the "enemy", for which you didn't even have to be a soldier, you could work in a factory and have seen some industrial documentation.

It seems our country treated the West as an enemy, who wanted to, basically, attack us (which did have some sense - it was the cold war, after all), but stealing some of our intellectual property (but what for, if the West was always ahead of us in terms of technology?) was - they thought it was - also a good idea for them. However weird it may sound.

It also sometimes happened that the "security service" (a police division, which was fighting with the "enemies of the communist/socialistic system") invited you and unless you agreed to cooperate with them they didn't let you get a passport, but it was rare, it usually happened if they had reasons for doing so (like if you had something to do with the anti-communist underground).

And they asked you in detail, why you want to go abroad, what you want to do there, and so on. You also needed an agreement of your employee (as it was obligatory to be employed and you had a break).

The biggest problems were:
- for many countries you had to get a visa, for which you needed an invitation from someone from the specific country (if I understand it well),
the financial barrier - and to let someone out, the authorities needed a confirmation that he has "enough" money (the limits were extremely low, as for the Western standards, but still high for the Eastern standards).

By the way, the international travels - even within the Eastern bloc - were massively used to buy and sell the goods which were impossible to buy where you lived and easy to buy where you went and the other way round. Because the centralized economy with fixed prices wasn't really efficient in distributing goods, it was often so that it was easy to buy something in one place and extremely difficult to buy it somewhere else. Even within a single country, even within a single neighborhood. Which lead to such a paradox that it was usually much more expensive to buy something second-hand from someone than just in a shop. The prices in shops were lower, but the problem was the product wasn't available at all.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ there were all kinds of restrictions PRL was doing to hurt people

Example, my grandfather in 70's returning to PRL... he had to exchange certain amount of hard currency to get visa, and/or purchase certain things at certain (bad) exchange rate... PRL was very happy to fleece the hard work of the decadent reactionaries who escaped :lol: Which also makes the whole "republikflucht" issue kind of interesting. In Gierek era at least, many people who ran away from PRL returned for vacations, etc without too much problems. But someone who escaped DDR and came back, was it easy? Maybe so if he came with a fist-ful of D-Mark for the intershop and a BRD reisepass but still... scary...


----------



## Ingenioren

MattiG said:


> The location is Kornsjø at the south end of Norway. The roads 101 (Norway) and 166 (Sweden) nowadays meet at the border.


Are you sure it is Kornsjö, this appears to be a shorter bridge, also note there are different buildings:









(Pre 1905)









(1955)

Many more historical postcards of Kornsjö in this link:
http://www.haldenkort.net/galleriKornsjo.php


----------



## MattiG

Ingenioren said:


> Are you sure it is Kornsjö, this appears to be a shorter bridge, also note there are different buildings:


Sure I am not sure.

However, the same image is referred by several Wikipedia articles to be taken in Kornsjö. I do not have a better reference in my hands.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/..._border_between_Sweden_and_Norway_in_1934.png


----------



## MattiG

Ingenioren said:


> Are you sure it is Kornsjö, this appears to be a shorter bridge, also note there are different buildings:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Pre 1905)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (1955)


The upper image was taken in Norway, the lower one in Sweden. I believe the house at the Norwegian side is the same in both images. (There are more chimneys in the image of 1955. The standard of living had raised.)

I did some extra research, and found an areal photo on Kornsjö in Vänerborgs Museum from 1937:










I think the photos match pretty well: The timber yard on the Norwegian side, the tree at the embankment, and the lake just behind the people

BTW, the economical map from 1964 shows the system to switch the sides on the new road:


----------



## OulaL

Finnish-Swedish border in Tornio/Haparanda pre-1967.


----------



## keber

Verso said:


> The road via Sočerga is well known among Slovenes and Croats. It's far less trafficked than e.g. the road via Dragonja, but in the worst days it gets crowded as well, so it would get even worse with a strict border control. The road via Rakitovec on the other hand is virtually unknown (probably because it's a local border crossing, but EU citizens can use it). Even _I_ have never driven there.


Rakitovec is a bordercrossing only for locals. Nonlocals have to turn around.
For all other there is Podgorje/Jelovice border crossing which is even further into hills.
I've driven there twice (with a car and with a bike), both times it was on Saturday around 15th August - the main traffic peak.
Sparse traffic, narrow road but in case of clogged roads nice and really picturesque. It is mostly used for Italy-Croatia transit traffic in those busy weekends and it is also closed in the night.


----------



## Kvarner-1

Podgorje/Jelovice border crossing is not on the fantastic main road Rijeka-Trieste.
But the route through Mune, Vodice, Jelovice, Podgorje.... is the shortest route between Ri and TS. 

Rakitovec is not availible for non-locals, but I know this road very very well from the times before the "schengen-slovenian iron curtain" because it's leading towards my nonna's (grandmother's) village.


----------



## Verso

keber said:


> Rakitovec is a bordercrossing only for locals. Nonlocals have to turn around.





Kvarner-1 said:


> Rakitovec is not availible for non-locals


Not true, border crossings for locals-only don't exist on the SLO–HR border any more. "Local" border crossings are restricted "only" to citizens of the EU, EEA and CH. Border crossing Rakitovec works from 6h to 22h.



> (2) Na mejnih prehodih za obmejni promet je dovoljen prehod državne meje s potnim listom ali osebno izkaznico tudi za osebe, ki imajo pravico do prostega gibanja po pravu Evropske unije.


https://www.uradni-list.si/glasilo-...ocitvi-mejnih-prehodov-v-republiki-sloveniji# (article 4)



Btw, there was again 5 hours of waiting at Obrežje today.


----------



## keber

^^ I didn't know that. That is new thing and very good news. Especially for us cyclists


----------



## Verso

It's been like that for two years. :lol:


----------



## Kvarner-1

I didn't know that. Thx for info.


----------



## alserrod

And... twice border crossin on the E-07 Somport tunnel (as known as 666 border, CNGL will tell you reason)
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.7443...0zHUG9k_rJEA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=es


Absolutely nothing special. Going to France, a little traffic, not so much.

Back to Spain, saturday night, I overpassed a Spanish plate car 20 km before tunnel and saw few cars in the surroundings. I entered the tunnel and just saw ONE car in the opposite direction (in the more than eight km tunnel). 

I saw no police even in Spanish side or French side both days (and there were a lot of in touristic places).

After going to Spain, a lot of traffic until Jaca, maybe because it is the last days for ski and people go there till next ski season.


----------



## eucitizen

An article on EUOBSERVER, about the prolonging of controls on inner Schengen borders

Border controls extended without justification

EU member states must demonstrate a serious threat to public order and internal security to impose temporary border controls.

But government documents suggest member states are broadly allowed to deny people the right of free movement even when their own available statistics suggest that there is no major problem.

Swedish police stopped almost 770,000 people in December alone, only 13 applied for asylum (Photo: EUobserver)

Earlier this year, the European Commission agreed for Austria, Denmark, Germany, Sweden and Norway to impose border controls for three months following ministerial letters to justify the blockades.

EUobserver has obtained letters from each of the member states, where they explain their reasons for upholding the border controls. Some admit there is no problem, while others offer scant data to support their arguments.

The commission has been pressing the states to phase out the controls without much success. The goal was to lift them all by the end of 2016.

Instead, the commission appears to be granting extensions despite the loose reasons provided to justify them.

In late January, EU commissioner for home affairs Dimitris Avramopoulos recommended the extra controls given the "unprecedented migratory pressure that Europe is facing".

But Norway said no one was refused entry and nobody had claimed asylum after having screened 157,000 people between December and early January this year at ferry connections with Denmark, Germany, and Sweden.

Norway's ministry of justice told the EU commission in early January that "no one has been refused entry following the border controls in this period."

It also noted that not a single person had applied for asylum, suggesting that the fear of so-called secondary movements of migrants venturing north through other EU states to Norway was no longer a "threat to public order and internal security".

The move poses larger questions on what then justifies the commission's recommendation only weeks later for Norway to uphold the controls.

Asked by EUobserver to comment, the commission has yet to respond.
Travelling asylum seekers

Asylum seekers and refugees travelling from Greece were among the initial reasons as to why border controls were first launched in 2015.

People arriving in Greece at that time would venture through the Western Balkans before reaching other EU member states in the hope of refuge.

The large numbers triggered panic among capitals as the commission scrambled to guarantee the future of the borderless Schengen area, comprised of 26 participating states.

Schengen is viewed as a major achievement of the European Union in terms of integration and the evolving single market.

Last year, the commission warned up to €18 billion annually could be lost if full border controls were to be re-established.

The commission says that any controls must be "necessary and proportionate."

But it is unclear how Norway's rationale for extending the border checks fits into the commission's definition of "necessary and proportionate," given the lack of evidence of any threat.
Austria, Denmark, Germany, Sweden

A similar lack of reasoning for prolonging the controls is also found in the letters sent by Austria, Denmark, Germany, and Sweden.

Austria was permitted to justify its demands despite noting that it cannot provide the EU commission with any of its own data.

"As in the previous notification, we cannot unfortunately give you data on the number of crossings and the number of persons controlled."

Instead, it broadly justifies the border controls by saying there is a steady rise in criminal suspects who also happen to have asylum status.

It also argues that the country has had to handle over 42,000 asylum applications last year alone and that Germany had either sent back or stopped over 13,000 people at the border with Austria over the same period.

More and more people also appear to be hopping onto freight trains to avoid detection in an effort to cross from Italy, Austria and into Germany.

"Over the last couple of weeks we've seen a diversion of flows away from Hungary to the Austrian-Slovakian border," notes the letter.

Denmark's government said it too wants to keep the controls despite the low number of irregular migrants arriving into the country.

Danish police had stopped around 215,500 people at its border with Germany between December and early January this year. Over 200 were told to go back and 147 applied for asylum.

"Although the number of irregular arrivals to Denmark has decreased, there are, at this stage, no grounds for phasing out or scaling down the border controls against Germany," notes the Danish letter.

Germany argued that controls need to continue because of internal security issues and that smugglers are adopting methods to evade the police.

Germany had been checking well over 100,000 every month between May and November last year.

But in December, it checked only around 14,000 after a Berlin Christmas lorry attack, which ended the lives of 12 people and left dozens injured. The suspect ended up taking a train to Italy where he was shot dead in Milan a few days later.

Sweden argues that its social and public services remain overstretched given the migration inflows from 2015.

Swedish police stopped almost 770,000 people in December alone. Police issued 231 removal decisions over the same period, while only 13 people applied for asylum.

"There are still no clear statistics available regarding delays for the general public and the commercial flow," noted the Swedish justice ministry.


----------



## italystf

Today I crossed the SLO-HR border (although we only went to Umag, as we reserved a restaurant there and had no a lot of time).
On SLO-HR direction, at Dragonja, around 11 a.m., there was half an hour of queue. They checked all documents on the SLO side, but there was nobody on HR side.
On HR-SLO direction, at Sečovlje, around 5 p.m., there was around 10 minutes of queue. On HR side, they barely looked at IDs, on the SLO side they were doing real controls. Passengers of a bus in SLO-HR direction were forced to get out of the bus.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> They checked all documents on the SLO side, but there was nobody on HR side.


That's because they are both in the Slovenian building.


----------



## Gyorgy

italystf said:


> Today I crossed the SLO-HR border (although we only went to Umag, as we reserved a restaurant there and had no a lot of time).
> On SLO-HR direction, at Dragonja, around 11 a.m., there was half an hour of queue. They checked all documents on the SLO side, but there was nobody on HR side.
> On HR-SLO direction, at Sečovlje, around 5 p.m., there was around 10 minutes of queue. On HR side, they barely looked at IDs, on the SLO side they were doing real controls. Passengers of a bus in SLO-HR direction were forced to get out of the bus.


And Croatia pays a rent for using the Slovenian border buildings. But it's nothing new, prior 2008 it was the same on Austrian and Italian border, with Slovenian policemans on Austrian and Italian side.

Croatian police is in their border posts only where border is not yet determined (Sečovlje).


----------



## Junkie

HR/SRB Bajakovo-Batrovci crossing today
http://www2.hak.hr/rmt/?l=1


----------



## haddockman

Did Greece not have a policy of denying entry to those who had entered Northern Cyprus?


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> For those that don't need a visa, they should return to Northern Cyprus before leaving the island, as fines are common at the airports in the Republic of Cyprus for those that are deemed to have entered the Republic of Cyprus illegally.


That would be me, since I entered Cyprus at the Ercan Airport in Northern Cyprus.


----------



## tfd543

Verso said:


> That would be me, since I entered Cyprus at the Ercan Airport in Northern Cyprus.


As I understand, Cyprus as a unified country will never be part of Schengen. At least not with this set-up.


----------



## alserrod

Yesterday I heard an old story on radio.

It was regarding my homecity football team. On September 1989 they had to move to Cyprus for an UEFA official match.

They managed tickets and passports and were afraid about going on because main goalkeeper was from South America and they didn't know if they would have any problem at customs.

Just after he was allowed to board into plane, second goalkeeper was sent home in the same bus he had arrived to airport. He was Spanish and team took him just in case they had problems with main goalkeeper. It was in an interview to him when he remembered that story and issue was to save money about tickets.

This team hasn't made many trips (and nowadays is in second league) but in 1994 they had to move to northern Romania for instance. They looked for nearest airport and it was a single one with barely traffic. They requested a charter plane and... police prepared first customs in history in that corner in Romania because it was the first international flight they received.

It was a so great chance in the region (and town was 150 km away from airport among all Carpates driving at 50 km/h) that two police cars were always looking forward team.

Two weeks later, Romanian team decided to take the same airport and... police knew what to do. Second plane in that airport

(I do not know if further more flights...)


My homecity passed away and for next round they just said they didn't matter to play against one or another one but, please, with an airport around....


They had to play against Presov, Slovakia and to save money, regular flight till Budapest and bus crossing border.


Sometimes football is full of border issues to chat about but... yes, in 1989 football players were allowed in Cyprus without problems, coming from Spain incluiding if they were from South America.


----------



## alserrod

Bielsa-Aragnouet tunnel has been closed for a while this morning due to an accident. AFAIK, no victims, just tunnel closed to traffic.

I posted in the regional thread about it and.... one minute after, webpage said open again.

Webpage says if it is open, closed, snow chains required, temperature in both entrances and so on... and two webcams that are updated every ten minutes.

English version is this one

http://www.bielsa-aragnouet.org/eng/


----------



## tfd543

alserrod said:


> Yesterday I heard an old story on radio.
> 
> It was regarding my homecity football team. On September 1989 they had to move to Cyprus for an UEFA official match.
> 
> They managed tickets and passports and were afraid about going on because main goalkeeper was from South America and they didn't know if they would have any problem at customs.
> 
> Just after he was allowed to board into plane, second goalkeeper was sent home in the same bus he had arrived to airport. He was Spanish and team took him just in case they had problems with main goalkeeper. It was in an interview to him when he remembered that story and issue was to save money about tickets.
> 
> This team hasn't made many trips (and nowadays is in second league) but in 1994 they had to move to northern Romania for instance. They looked for nearest airport and it was a single one with barely traffic. They requested a charter plane and... police prepared first customs in history in that corner in Romania because it was the first international flight they received.
> 
> It was a so great chance in the region (and town was 150 km away from airport among all Carpates driving at 50 km/h) that two police cars were always looking forward team.
> 
> Two weeks later, Romanian team decided to take the same airport and... police knew what to do. Second plane in that airport
> 
> (I do not know if further more flights...)
> 
> 
> My homecity passed away and for next round they just said they didn't matter to play against one or another one but, please, with an airport around....
> 
> 
> They had to play against Presov, Slovakia and to save money, regular flight till Budapest and bus crossing border.
> 
> 
> Sometimes football is full of border issues to chat about but... yes, in 1989 football players were allowed in Cyprus without problems, coming from Spain incluiding if they were from South America.


I did not really get it. Anyway I am a very big passionated football fan but I have never heard about border issues for playing in foreign countries against national football teams. Frankly never.


----------



## alserrod

tfd543 said:


> I did not really get it. Anyway I am a very big passionated football fan but I have never heard about border issues for playing in foreign countries against national football teams. Frankly never.


In the early 70s, Yugoslavia and Spain had to play in both countries and there was no embassies to deal about visas.
It was France who dealed with them and gave Yugoslavian players a visa to enter Spain and conversely.

There wasn't problems but a lot of issues to deal before match.


Anyway, let's remember issue with Maradona who, due to former problems with drugs, was forbidden to entry inside Australia for a FIFA official match at first!!


----------



## tfd543

alserrod said:


> In the early 70s, Yugoslavia and Spain had to play in both countries and there was no embassies to deal about visas.
> 
> It was France who dealed with them and gave Yugoslavian players a visa to enter Spain and conversely.
> 
> 
> 
> There wasn't problems but a lot of issues to deal before match.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, let's remember issue with Maradona who, due to former problems with drugs, was forbidden to entry inside Australia for a FIFA official match at first!!




Wasnt the YU passport that powerful to travel visa free in Eastern and Western bloc countries and allow reciprocality?


----------



## x-type

tfd543 said:


> Wasnt the YU passport that powerful to travel visa free in Eastern and Western bloc countries and allow reciprocality?


it wasn't. YU citizens were actually required to have visa for most (western) european countries. the difference was that YU citizens were allowed to travel. Warsaw pact citizens weren't allowed that.


----------



## italystf

tfd543 said:


> Wasnt the YU passport that powerful to travel visa free in Eastern and Western bloc countries and allow reciprocality?


Spain was fascist until 1975 and had not relationships with any communist country.


----------



## Junkie

x-type said:


> it wasn't. YU citizens were actually required to have visa for most (western) european countries. the difference was that YU citizens were allowed to travel. Warsaw pact citizens weren't allowed that.


No. There were more western states that you could visit without visa than otherwise. What I mention is that Albania, Greece and France required visa because of some bilateral issues. Albania was the most isolated country in the world back then and no one traveled there. But the gates were open for West and East Germany, UK, Italy and all others...


----------



## x-type

i'm not sure for the UK.


----------



## Alex_ZR

x-type said:


> i'm not sure for the UK.


My dad visited UK in 1982 without visa. Actually, he travelled around Europe by railway in late 1970s and early 1980s, and the only visa in his passport is Greek.


----------



## x-type

i know that for France visa was needed in 1989.


----------



## alserrod

tfd543 said:


> Wasnt the YU passport that powerful to travel visa free in Eastern and Western bloc countries and allow reciprocality?


Spain wasn't at all in the "western bloc". Spain had a dictator in those years.
Let's remember than in the early 50ish, Argentina opened first embassy in Madrid for years and until Eisenhower visit in December 59, it was almost isolated from the rest of the world.


----------



## alserrod

Junkie said:


> No. There were more western states that you could visit without visa than otherwise. What I mention is that Albania, Greece and France required visa because of some bilateral issues. Albania was the most isolated country in the world back then and no one traveled there. But the gates were open for West and East Germany, UK, Italy and all others...


Lol... I can say I have been in Albania.
How?. In territorial waters!!!. I was in a cruise that left Corfu/Kirka in Greece and received a SMS message in the mobile saying "welcome to XXX network in Albania" or something like that. That means I was in that moment less than 7 km away from Albanian shore.


----------



## Verso

Border between Cyprus and the UK (Akrotiri and Dhekelia). Actually there's no sign whatsoever, at least not on the motorway.









https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/30430722


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> Lol... I can say I have been in Albania.
> How?. In territorial waters!!!. I was in a cruise that left Corfu/Kirka in Greece and received a SMS message in the mobile saying "welcome to XXX network in Albania" or something like that. That means I was in that moment less than 7 km away from Albanian shore.


I sometimes get 'Welcome to Slovenia' SMSs while on the train between Monfalcone and Trieste. The railway line runs entirely within Italy, but it runs very close to the Slovenian border near Duino. In the past, even Croatian mobile signal was captured on the coast near Trieste.


----------



## alserrod

In my region, in the Pyrenees mountains, there is more mobile service from Spain than from France. Therefore, sometimes being in France you can get Spanish service (and be careful with fares because they will be international) and sometimes, should you call in the middle of Pyrenees to 112 for an emergency, they are answered in my homecity. As far as they offer service in several languages and they see exact location, they re-send call to French emergency services but it is a point... no full mobile service near border in France.

Last time I entered in France I received several SMS. First, welcome, secondly, fares if I called or connected to internet and finally...... phone numbers of embassy in Paris and nearest consulates!!!!!!

The issue of Albania was only an anecdote... I was travelling from Athens to Venice and providing I shouldn't glanced my mobile I wouldn't know at all I had been in territorial Albanian waters for a while (it is easy because those antennas give service only for 7 km or so and border was really near to harbour where we departed.


----------



## Suburbanist

One little hassle will be gone in June: no more roaming charges for calls within EU + Norway (Switzerland didn't sign up sadly). There will also be a minimum free EU data roaming cap that increases every year (or the cap on the customer home plan, whichever is lower). I think it will be 500MB month starting in June.


----------



## Verso

On my map of Yugoslavia there are 3 border crossings to Albania. One with Montenegro, one with Kosovo, and one with Macedonia.


----------



## stickedy

Verso said:


> On my map of Yugoslavia there are 3 border crossings to Albania. One with Montenegro, one with Kosovo, and one with Macedonia.


Han i Hotit, Vermica and Qafa Thana.

However, when you saw these border crossings and the street infrastructure a couple of years ago, you see that there was no real interest of Albania to let people in the country: In general the socialist countries where showing what they can achieve at their border crossings, to show the foreigners the superiority of their system and economy.

That was totally absent at the Albanian border crossings (and even on the Yugoslavian side). So looking at this, you can see that there was close to no traffic there.


----------



## Junkie

That communist paranoia was comparable to today's North Korea. It was very extreme and Enver Hoxha was in fact afraid of Tito and especially he was afraid of the Soviet Union influence and power. After the intervention in Czechoslovakia I know that Albania split up from the east pact. 
What I remember is that there was almost no traffic between YU and Albania. There was a case when a foreigner was hanged in the late 60's after being accused of spying.


----------



## alserrod

I have been glancing info about tourism in Bhutan and, as far I have searched:

- Visa is allowed for everyone except India, Maldivas and Bangladesh
- You MUST hire a tour with a local operator or maybe a foreign authorised operator (for instance, someone from Nepal who sell together Nepal and Bhutan). They must be them who will ask you a visa. It is impossible to ask a visa in any Bhutan embassies
- You cannot make a self journey inside the country.... all with operators. They can offer you a van and a driver and feel free to change of plans as many times as you want, but they will say that, after arriving to the country, about 250ish dollars/day for ALL (except gifts, phone calls and some beverages). 3-4 starred hotels included, breakast, lunch and dinner, local guide, car or van... If you wish 5 stars, it can approach to 300 dollars/day
- There are daily flights to several near Bhutan. The best one is from Kathmandu and having an A seat when departing (and F seat when back again). You will see Everest and five out of highest peaks in the world very near
- They have border with China but no border passes... indeed no flights to China (anyway, nearest city is Lhasa and it is not a hub at all. To go to Shanghai, maybe better a shuttle at Singapore, for instance).
- They have three border passes with India but can use only with a visa given by operators.

- Tourist operators will ask for number of people, number of days, preferred plan (trekking, culture, sightseen and so on) and budget to make you a proposal. Providing you take a two weeks trip you can enter via international airport and leave to Calcutta by van in the opposite side of the country.


----------



## grykaerugoves

Junkie said:


> That communist paranoia was comparable to today's North Korea. It was very extreme and Enver Hoxha was in fact afraid of Tito and especially he was afraid of the Soviet Union influence and power. After the intervention in Czechoslovakia I know that Albania split up from the east pact.
> What I remember is that there was almost no traffic between YU and Albania. There was a case when a foreigner was hanged in the late 60's after being accused of spying.


Enver Hoxha was heavily armed, he wasn't scared of Tito, I think he was more paranoid from an invasion in the south from the Greeks with the backing of the west.


----------



## Junkie

grykaerugoves said:


> Enver Hoxha was heavily armed, he wasn't scared of Tito, I think he was more paranoid from an invasion in the south from the Greeks with the backing of the west.


That's not true YU had enormous air, naval and ground troops it was considered as a true power. Albania was tiny back then, but they were afraid mainly of the Soviets because they were able to assimilate them politically.
Also I dont think that the Greeks and the west were interested to trouble them.


----------



## stickedy

Junkie said:


> That's not true YU had enormous air, naval and ground troops it was considered as a true power. Albania was tiny back then, but they were afraid mainly of the Soviets because they were able to assimilate them politically.
> Also I dont think that the Greeks and the west were interested to trouble them.


Paranoia... Enver Hoxha was afraid of everyone!

And to Greece: The south-eastern parts of Albania are known as Northern Epirus (basically the area around Korca, Përmet, Erseka, Saranda, Himara, Tepelena and Gjirokastra) and there was a big Greek Minority until about 1945 (you still find some Greeks there and there are also bilingual signs since some years). During Balkan wars and WW1, Greece tried to annex that part of Albania. And that idea was not that unlikely even after 1945. There was also civil war in Greece where Albania backed the communist guerrilla and Greece and Albania were more or less in a state of frozen war (somehow like North and South Korea nowadays). There were also no border crossings at all between the two countries. So the fears of Albania about a Greek invasion (already happened twice in the 20th century) were understandable.


----------



## alserrod

Sure?

Found this

https://www.google.es/maps/@39.6527...pQcK-d0E90D9YviSU9iA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es


----------



## tfd543

alserrod said:


> Sure?
> 
> Found this
> 
> https://www.google.es/maps/@39.6527...pQcK-d0E90D9YviSU9iA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es


^^ *There were also no border crossings at all between the two countries*...Well yes, now there are.. btw is Greece and Albania still in state of war technically ? Did they sign any declaration of peace since 1992 ?


----------



## Verso

stickedy said:


> There were also no border crossings at all between the two countries.


How do you know that?


----------



## tfd543

Verso said:


> How do you know that?


Kakavia border crossing was opened in 1985, the year when Hoxha passed away. I can also answer my own question now, in 1985 the state of war between the two countries was officially ceased. Source is a book that I have at home.


----------



## Verso

tfd543 said:


> Source is a book that I have at home.


Is it yellow?


----------



## tfd543

Verso said:


> Is it yellow?


Definitely not. Its white :lol:


----------



## Junkie

It was a talk for the communist period, today is easy to visit Albania you(I) need just ID.


----------



## stickedy

tfd543 said:


> Kakavia border crossing was opened in 1985, the year when Hoxha passed away. I can also answer my own question now, in 1985 the state of war between the two countries was officially ceased. Source is a book that I have at home.


Yes, that's also my knowledge. Kakavia was opened first (you also see how old this crossing is when you are there), the others were later, most likely in the 90ies and even later (Qafa Bote).


----------



## tfd543

Junkie said:


> It was a talk for the communist period, today is easy to visit Albania you(I) need just ID.




Thats true. Funny enough, i have witnessed that people still carry their passport because they either dont know or classical naivety. They dont feel safe enough and dont want to risk getting refused. Its like in croatia at lucko toll station where people still use the cash service booths instead of the empty self-service booths. Lol. You gotta love Balkan people, we are one of a kind


----------



## OulaL

tfd543 said:


> Funny enough, i have witnessed that people still carry their passport because they either dont know or classical naivety.


I'm not from the Balkans and I do carry my passport when travelling, even within Schengen area, because it is my only proper method of identification.

I don't have an ID card. It would be more expensive to obtain than a passport, and I would still need the passport for most non-Schengen journeys anyway.

I do have a driving licence and it is good enough in my own country, but not officially elsewhere.


----------



## Attus

I, too, have no ID card. The only citizenship I have is Hungarian, and Hungarian laws only permit to have an ID card if you have a permanent residence in Hungary. So Hungarian citizens living outside Hungary may only have a passport but no ID card (unless they have another citizenship as well and have the ID card of that nation). 
And my driving license, too, is a German one. 
The only Hungarian document I have is my passport.


----------



## Junkie

tfd543 said:


> Thats true. Funny enough, i have witnessed that people still carry their passport because they either dont know or classical naivety. They dont feel safe enough and dont want to risk getting refused. Its like in croatia at lucko toll station where people still use the cash service booths instead of the empty self-service booths. Lol. You gotta love Balkan people, we are one of a kind


In Balkan you can see, hear and experience everything. But things are improving.
As for the border crossings if you are Croat you must check this funny video about a bull at the Bosnia-Croatia border :lol:


----------



## Verso

tfd543 said:


> Thats true. Funny enough, i have witnessed that people still carry their passport because they either dont know or classical naivety. They dont feel safe enough and dont want to risk getting refused.


Supposedly I only need an ID for visiting the so-called Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, but I took my passport with me. I don't wanna be refused entry after 4 hours of flying. However, I wouldn't worry about the Republic of Cyprus since it's an EU member.


----------



## Junkie

Maybe someone knows to tell about these crossings during the cold war. I post an example where these two cities at the CZ-PL border are divided by a river. And a bridge over the border, which I see its open to cross.
https://www.google.mk/maps/@49.7495...PlD3Xi3piQFooebY3opA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en


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## alserrod

Google street view also on touristic boats!!!!


I honestly guess this is the (touristic boat trip) more breathtaking over the world being in a border. Isn't it?

https://www.google.es/maps/@-25.687...GNWTxzECyNxVi9NwLdcA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es


----------



## keokiracer

^^ I think that page is only visible for moderators, I get a permission error.


----------



## alserrod

solved


----------



## Kpc21

Junkie said:


> Maybe someone knows to tell about these crossings during the cold war. I post an example where these two cities at the CZ-PL border are divided by a river. And a bridge over the border, which I see its open to cross.
> https://www.google.mk/maps/@49.7495...PlD3Xi3piQFooebY3opA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en


It did work, it was a small border traffic crossing.

There is a more interesting case somewhere, where there is a street exactly along the border between Poland and either the Czech Republic, or Slovakia (I am not sure). I cannot find it now, but I remember this topic discussed in the Polish thread on border crossings. Someone from the Polish SSC section went there and took photos of it. It worked as a border crossing during the cold war too. Supposedly, there were border posts at both end of this street. The border guards knew well the locals using this crossing every day, so they had no problems with it.

To return to Cieszyn - supposedly, it was like this in the '90s:










It's not from the cold war times because the eagle on the sign has a crown. Although the STOP sign and the Zoll one too probably remember those times.

To compare: https://goo.gl/maps/vBQ4rDbj9ZF2

Here is a material of the Polish TV news from 1988 about this checkpoint:






I have posted it already here a very short time ago, you must have missed it.

So it was shortly before Schengen:






A documentary, now, of the Czechoslovakian TV, from 1970 - it seems, it's about a flood (in which the bridge has collapsed), but it has some photos from the border checkpoint too:






Although the documentary is probably from the '90s (yes, definitely, you can see photos with shops of western brands like Adidas; anyway, it's in color, and if I am not mistaken, we didn't have color TV in 1970 yet), it's just about events from 1970.

*But here: http://slaskie.fotopolska.eu/574,obiekt.html many historic photos of this bridge.*


----------



## alserrod

Seen in google street view and spotted last 2016 June

https://www.google.es/maps/@43.3493...RZXtgh5ULxm32mlEVgBQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es

This line is border between Spain and France.


French police were having controls on border (by the way, first brigde ahead, only for pedestrians now, was without control at the same time)


----------



## MajKeR_

Junkie said:


> I post an example where these two cities at the CZ-PL border are divided by a river.


To be precise, it's one city divided by a river, along which the border runs.


----------



## Junkie

MajKeR_ said:


> To be precise, it's one city divided by a river, along which the border runs.


Yes, I understood its the same name on both languages. So I guess pre-WW2 it was actually one city with no border at all.


----------



## Verso

Kpc21 said:


> It's not from the cold war times because the eagle on the sign has a crown.


And Škoda Fabia was first produced in 1999.


----------



## Kpc21

Junkie said:


> Yes, I understood its the same name on both languages. So I guess pre-WW2 it was actually one city with no border at all.


Same as, for example, Frankfurt Oder/Słubice, or Görlitz/Zgorzelec. In the first case, the name on the Polish side has changed, in the second one, it's practically the same.

In case of Cieszyn/Cesky Tesin, the Czech name says something like "Czech Cieszyn" or "Czech Tesin", from whichever language you translate. The Polish part is just Cieszyn/Tesin.

Sorry for the lack of the Czech diacritics.

There is also, for example, Kostrzyn and Küstrin-Kietz. The same name too, the German one just with something added.

By the way, it seems, Cieszyn was a single city pre-WW1 and it got divided in 1920 after many disputes (including a military conflict) about whether those lands should belong to Czechoslovakia, or to Poland.


----------



## Attus

In the history of Europe rivers wre often used as border between countries, and in many cases were towns, built on both sides of a river, suddenly were divided by a border...
Those, who know Europe, can surely list at least a dozen but rather more of such examples, especially in the territory of the former Austria-Hungary.


----------



## Junkie

@Kpc21 I see, there is almost same example at Croatia - Bosnia border over the Sava river. From Croatian side the town is called Slavonski Brod while from the other side of the river, the part of the historically same developing town is called Bosanski (Brod). And the border runs over the river and there is a bridge which is a cross point.


----------



## Kpc21

Do I get it well that the name "Brod" came from a word meaning "a place of crossing the river (without using a bridge)"? Then it's meaning will be even older than the bridge 

Interestingly, I cannot find such examples at the eastern Polish border. Terespol and Brest are closest to each other, but looking at a map, they seem to be two totally separate towns on both banks of the river. And to have been them also historically.


----------



## Kpc21

This street right on the state border between Poland and Czech Republic seems to be here: https://goo.gl/maps/BfvxLFqhchN2

We are in Poland. From this point, there is Czech Republic on the left, Poland on the right.

https://goo.gl/maps/kwSUBU4Q3aA2 - the container for old clothes is in Poland, but the field behind it - in Czech Republic. You can see a small pole, marking the border.

https://goo.gl/maps/CgAA5qE4uXF2 - the house on the left is in the Czech Republic, the house on the right is in Poland. The road is probably in Poland, because the directional road sign ahead is in the Polish style.

https://goo.gl/maps/E2Mv63teXME2 - here, there are even two power lines - a Czech one, supplying Czech houses with electricity, on the left, and a Polish one on the right.

This road sign is Czech: https://goo.gl/maps/E2Mv63teXME2

And it seems, this is the place where the street changes the ownership. 

https://goo.gl/maps/XTksiADjKQv - here, you can see a Czech cycle trail sign on the side of the road with Polish houses. There are still two electric lines on both sides of the street.

Ahead of it, there is a Czech road sign about an intersection, but the house on the right has a satellite dish from a Polish operator.

Here - a Czech directional road sign: https://goo.gl/maps/cuH9RcXN1jy (referring to the same intersection as the previous one)

It's the place where the border makes a turn and does not go along this street any more: https://goo.gl/maps/P5piANJ5wQL2

But... it goes along another street. This street is in Poland: https://goo.gl/maps/wVxXM9tNzCL2

Exit of this street: https://goo.gl/maps/zCU3ozxbSUo - RP means Rzeczpospolita Polska (officially: Republic of Poland, more literally: Polish Commonwealth), CR means Ceska Republika (Czech Republic).

https://goo.gl/maps/K4PgfQH3pso - the transformer station on the left supplies Czech houses, the power line on the right is Polish.

The main street turns right, the border goes forward: https://goo.gl/maps/9TfJ6Puyoi82

It stays in Poland for a moment, but crosses the border soon: https://goo.gl/maps/EeXXzxXQVBN2

More photos here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=192637&page=106

Some information (in Polish, but if you don't understand with Google Translate, just ask): http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=192637&page=81


----------



## Kpc21

Another place with a Polish house on the left and a Czech house on the right: https://goo.gl/maps/yYTmwxj9NF12

Behind and above - a high voltage electric line crossing the border.

Photos on SSC: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=192637&page=96


----------



## OulaL

Attus said:


> In the history of Europe rivers wre often used as border between countries, and in many cases were towns, built on both sides of a river, suddenly were divided by a border...
> Those, who know Europe, can surely list at least a dozen but rather more of such examples, especially in the territory of the former Austria-Hungary.


Several villages and the only town along the present Finnish-Swedish-border are like that. In many cases they even have exactly the same Finnish-language name used in both countries.


----------



## Junkie

@Kpc21 this one is also very interesting example. Looking at the house and its land on the right I wonder in which country belongs. I don't know about the cross border laws in these open border examples.


----------



## alserrod

according to milestone in the left of imagen, it would be in CZ...


----------



## Kpc21

The booth which is probably the former border guard post is more interesting. It's definitely in the Czech Republic, according to the stone @alserrod mentioned. But it has a Polish waste container. There is "food waste" written in Polish on it, not in Czech.

Although it's powered from the Czech power grid.


----------



## abdeka

*Algeria - Tunisia*, Oum Theboul checkpoint, Province of El Taref, Algeria.



> 3 days ago


----------



## SRC_100

Junkie said:


> @Kpc21 this one is also very interesting example. Looking at the house and its land on the right I wonder in which country belongs. I don't know about the cross border laws in these open border examples.


Definitely this home in the depths is on the Czech side, because under the roof there is car with a Czech license plate and the border runs in that thin ditch.


----------



## Kpc21

I would say, it's a few tens of cm next to the ditch. Why? The position of the border stone.

Anyway, the most interesting thing here is this waste container  A really international and Schengen one 

How is it with the waste containers in the Czech Republic? Do you typically own one or is it delivered by the waste collection company? Or does it depend on the municipality/company, like in Poland?

Maybe the owner of this Czech booth bought this container from a Pole...


----------



## nenea_hartia

The tripoint between Romania, Hungary and Serbia is open only one weekend every year (today and tomorrow) and used as a temporarily crossing point. Serbia is not in the EU and Romania not in the Schengen space.
Sorry, the video is in Romanian, but you can see a part of the "famous" wall raised by Hungary at its Serbian border.


----------



## alserrod

Do they open it for touristic issues at the same time they offer all custom services there?


----------



## haddockman

I doubt you can legally cross there.


----------



## Eulanthe

Kpc21 said:


> Do I get it well that the name "Brod" came from a word meaning "a place of crossing the river (without using a bridge)"? Then it's meaning will be even older than the bridge


Yes, it's basically a Slavic word for "ford", meaning a shallow river crossing. There's even some places called Bród in Poland.



> Interestingly, I cannot find such examples at the eastern Polish border. Terespol and Brest are closest to each other, but looking at a map, they seem to be two totally separate towns on both banks of the river. And to have been them also historically.


From what I know, the Eastern border was drawn quite carefully to avoid these problems. However, it's not totally the case - I'm pretty sure Sianki in Bieszczady was split between Poland and the USSR after the war, although it's not a water border.


----------



## Kpc21

Eulanthe said:


> Yes, it's basically a Slavic word for "ford", meaning a shallow river crossing. There's even some places called BrÃ³d in Poland.


There is a part of Warsaw called Bródno, it comes from it too.


----------



## nenea_hartia

alserrod said:


> Do they open it for touristic issues at the same time they offer all custom services there?





haddockman said:


> I doubt you can legally cross there.


You can legally cross there one weekend per year, that's all. There is a passport/ID card control though. For the rest of the year it looks like that. As you can see, the road is paved on the Romanian side.

There are some pictures of the tripoint on Google Maps, and the exact place is here.


----------



## Junkie

Eulanthe said:


> Yes, it's basically a Slavic word for "ford", meaning a shallow river crossing. There's even some places called Bród in Poland.


"Brod" also means ship or vessel.


----------



## Kpc21

In Macedonian, I understand. It's well to know - it makes some sense concerning it's origin and the verb "brodzić" (or however it looks like in other Slavic languages).

Wiktionary says that this word means ship also in Serbo-Croatian, or actually, I believe, in the languages which appeared at the moment of the breakup of Yugoslavia.

I am still not really getting how it is with the Serbo-Croatian and the all the local languages. I know that those areas constitute a dialectal continuum, that the language spoken by the local people slightly changes when you move from place to place, and the further someone goes, the more difficult it it to understand others. A similar situation is in Scandinavia. But a language is also a set of words and grammatical rules which constitute it's "official" version, which is used in books, newspapers, in all the media like radio or TV (at least in those countrywide ones) or for lectures at universities. So... Serbo-Croatian was used for those purposes till the breakup of Yugoslavia, and... when the new countries appeared, how did people from each of them know, how the "official" version of their language should look like and differ from the languages of other former Yugoslavia countries? Does anyone still use Serbo-Croatian there, or it's a dead language, replaced by Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian and other languages, which are similar to each other, but have some differences? I understand that none of those languages in its "official" form is used by the people for everyday conversations, they use their local dialects (which is different from Poland, for example, where the meaning of dialects is very little and people normally use the same language as the media in conversations). But it's must be somehow known that, for example, A is the proper word for something in Croatian, and Slovenian has a different word for it - B, how the language should be correctly pronounced, what are the spelling rules and so on.

And another interesting thing is the existence and meaning of dialects in the language at all. Like in Polish, as I already wrote, at least in most of the area of the country, speaking the dialect is something like wearing folk costumes and dancing folk dances. It's a more culture-related thing, not used in practice. Of course, there are some very minor differences in pronunciation, or different words used for some things in different parts of the country (the most notable example is the word for a big wheat-only bread - it's like the word for a doughnut in German, it's different in each city), but there is really few of them, and if I am supposed to talk to someone from the other end of the country, I usually won't notice it at all.

And, supposedly (maybe I am wrong), in Scandinavia or in former Yugoslavia, a person from one end of the country will normally speak visibly different from someone from the other end, and they may even have troubles understanding themselves.


----------



## reyan.tm

*Borders between Indonesia and Malaysia in Borneo Island*

*PLBN (Border Checkpoint) Aruk located in Sambas, West Kalimantan(Borneo)
*

















Source

*PLBN (Border Checkpoint) Entikong located in Sanggau, West Kalimantan (Borneo)*









Source

Skip to 1:10





*PLBN (Border Checkpoint) Badau located in Kapuas Hulu, West Kalimantan (Borneo)*


----------



## reyan.tm

*Borders Between Indonesia and East Timor in Timor Island*

*PLBN (Border Checkpoint) Motaain located in Belu, East Nusa Tenggara*









source






*PLBN (Border CHeckpoint) Motamasin located in Malaka, East Nusa Tenggara*









source

*PLBN (Border Checkpoint) Wini located in Wini, East Nusa Timor*









source


----------



## reyan.tm

*Borders Between Indonesia and Papua New Guinea in Papua Island*

*New PLBN (Border Post) Skouw located in Jayapura, Papua*










source


----------



## haddockman

nenea_hartia said:


> You can legally cross there one weekend per year, that's all. There is a passport/ID card control though. For the rest of the year it looks like that. As you can see, the road is paved on the Romanian side.
> 
> There are some pictures of the tripoint on Google Maps, and the exact place is here.


Is there anyone in those watchtowers?

Is it possible to walk to the tripoint on normal days?


----------



## tfd543

haddockman said:


> Is there anyone in those watchtowers?
> 
> Is it possible to walk to the tripoint on normal days?


The watchtower at the Hungarian side is empty if you are referring to the wooden one. Think its an old one from YU times, usually they have more modern equipment than a useless watchtower of 50-100 meters.

You will get a fine of 20 USD but the cool thing is that Police will give you a lift back home :lol::nuts:

I know this cos I googled it and a tourist wrote his experience when he was there.


----------



## cinxxx

^^I think you can call Romanian border police in advance and ask them, they may give you permission, but it's important for them to know that you want to walk there


----------



## Junkie

Kpc21 said:


> In Macedonian, I understand. It's well to know - it makes some sense concerning it's origin and the verb "brodzić" (or however it looks like in other Slavic languages).
> 
> Wiktionary says that this word means ship also in Serbo-Croatian, or actually, I believe, in the languages which appeared at the moment of the breakup of Yugoslavia.
> 
> I am still not really getting how it is with the Serbo-Croatian and the all the local languages. I know that those areas constitute a dialectal continuum, that the language spoken by the local people slightly changes when you move from place to place, and the further someone goes, the more difficult it it to understand others. A similar situation is in Scandinavia. But a language is also a set of words and grammatical rules which constitute it's "official" version, which is used in books, newspapers, in all the media like radio or TV (at least in those countrywide ones) or for lectures at universities. So... Serbo-Croatian was used for those purposes till the breakup of Yugoslavia, and... when the new countries appeared, how did people from each of them know, how the "official" version of their language should look like and differ from the languages of other former Yugoslavia countries? Does anyone still use Serbo-Croatian there, or it's a dead language, replaced by Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian and other languages, which are similar to each other, but have some differences? I understand that none of those languages in its "official" form is used by the people for everyday conversations, they use their local dialects (which is different from Poland, for example, where the meaning of dialects is very little and people normally use the same language as the media in conversations). But it's must be somehow known that, for example, A is the proper word for something in Croatian, and Slovenian has a different word for it - B, how the language should be correctly pronounced, what are the spelling rules and so on.
> 
> And another interesting thing is the existence and meaning of dialects in the language at all. Like in Polish, as I already wrote, at least in most of the area of the country, speaking the dialect is something like wearing folk costumes and dancing folk dances. It's a more culture-related thing, not used in practice. Of course, there are some very minor differences in pronunciation, or different words used for some things in different parts of the country (the most notable example is the word for a big wheat-only bread - it's like the word for a doughnut in German, it's different in each city), but there is really few of them, and if I am supposed to talk to someone from the other end of the country, I usually won't notice it at all.
> 
> And, supposedly (maybe I am wrong), in Scandinavia or in former Yugoslavia, a person from one end of the country will normally speak visibly different from someone from the other end, and they may even have troubles understanding themselves.


I am not a linguist and this is my obvious knowledge.
Croatian and Serbian are based on a same dialect its called Shtokavian. There are many variants of this dialect and back in YU, Croats used ijekavian as official while Serbs used ekavian writings. Today is the same.
So the word "river" it would be r*ij*eka and r_e_ka. 
Bosnian is based on same dialect and ijekavian is used by Serbs there also.
So if its shtokavian no matter the differences, the mutuality is very high so there are no problems at all.
Now the differences.
First, due to historical reasons Croatians and Serbians have words that are not find in the one or another.
Second Croats pronounce their ijekavian differently than Serbs or Bosniaks same goes for the others. 
Third there are also different dialects, specially in Croatia, where Chakavian and Kajkavian are very different, the latter one is close to Slovenian.


As for MK, the language shares low mutuality with the above mentioned. There are some dialects in east which are mutual with Bulgarian and by some extent also to southern Serbian dialects.
Generally in the schools here back in YU times, ekavian shtokavian was taught and older generations speak it well. 
Youngsters understand it very well because there is a ton of music and subtitles and TV channels are Serbian and Croatian. But they find it hard to speak it. As time goes the difference is getting bigger.
As for Slovenian is alien for me, I speak English.
I understand also Bulgarian by a high degree and when I go there I speak my local with them so we get understood very well. With Serbs or Croats I cant speak my local because they will find it hard.


----------



## darko06

Junkie said:


> I am not a linguist and this is my obvious knowledge.
> ...
> 
> I understand also Bulgarian by a high degree and when I go there I speak my local with them so we get understood very well.
> ...


Would it be fair to say that the Macedonian and Bulgarian are the same language, or just "dialects" of the same language, according to the sentence above?


----------



## Junkie

Let's dont go off-topic, I will tell you what happens when I cross borders in the region.
When I go to Bulgaria I speak my local with no problem. When I go to Greece I can speak at the border my local and they understand me, because there is everyday traffic so they learned.
When I go to ex-yu countries including Kosovo and Slovenia I always speak Serbian or Croatian I am understood very well. 
But once when I communicated with Slovenians they got problems so I switched to English.


----------



## SRC_100

^^
When I`m in Makedonija I always used to speak serbian and everybody understand me very well, on the other hand it`s hard for me to understand makedonski.


----------



## alserrod

When you are in Andorra... it is messy-blessy.... near France, more pannels in French, rest, most of them even in Catalan or Spanish. Everything official would be in Catalan (official in the boundary region) but everyone will speak Spanish. If an officer notices your plate is French or Spanish will speak to you in your language.

In addition, Andorran educational system offers French as foreing language but do not offer Spanish.... and they speak better than some Spaniards even if never learnt about grammar or literacy.


----------



## Kpc21

The mutual intelligibility of the languages is also a weird thing.

As I wrote, in Poland, we practically use the same language everywhere, with very minor differences. There are some regions, where they cultivate their traditions more, like Silesia, and they... truly speaking, I don't know, I haven't lived there - but it's known that they have their own dialect (with many loan words from German), and maybe even some people use it for normal conversations. I think, rather those uneducated ones.

But anyway... I live in central Poland. And when I go to Slovakia or Czech Republic, I have difficulty understanding them. I will understand more or less the written text, but when they talk to me... it's problematic. I wouldn't say Polish is mutually intelligible with any other Slavic language, maybe with an exception of Sorbian to some extent (a Slavic language spoken by a small ethnic group in Germany - by the way, little people in Poland know that such a language and such an ethnic group exists at all).

But in the areas nearer to the border, they usually have much less difficulty understanding Czech or Slovak... Even though they normally speak the same Polish as us in the central Poland. I don't know, maybe it's a matter of frequent international contact, or of the access to the Czech or Slovak TV... Although I have heard that in the communist times, the Polish TV was the most liberal one in the whole Eastern Block, showing comparatively many movies from the West and many entertainment programs, as compared with the TVs from the other countries; so that it would be rather Czechs and Slovaks interested in watching the Polish TV and not the Poles watching the Czechoslovak TV. Even when I see recordings of the news from the 80s (although it's the 80s, so the last years of the communism, it was probably different and containing more propaganda before), they seem to be of higher quality and contain less propaganda then the current main news of our state TV.

I hope it's OK to talk about trans-border TV reception in this thread, when it's basically about state borders 

Anyway, now we have satellite TV, not to mention the Internet. Before all this appeared, only those who lived near the border, could pick up some additional TV channels. Especially in the Eastern Block, where there was no private TV stations. We had only two channels of the state TV, the second of which started somewhere around the 70s, from what I know. And they did broadcast only in the afternoons and evenings. In some areas (Warsaw, if I am not wrong), also Russian TV was transmitted. And later, but already in the 90s, where we were already a democratic country - which is interesting - the Italian TV. Rai Uno had a transmitter in Poland 

And most lucky were those living near the border with western countries, so that they could receive TV from there. Most lucky of those most lucky - those in East Germany living near the western border or near Berlin. They could even receive western TV in their own language. Others, wanting to get access to western media, were limited to the radio, in case of which you can receive signal on very large distances on ranges like SW, LW or MW (who still uses them now?). Which was often jammed by the government with transmitters dedicated for that, which were transmitting noise or some random content on the frequencies of western stations.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ I wonder how much of the Polish language "homogenity" is because of the population displacements in 1945? You had a lot of "eastern" people moving to extreme west and so on. 

I still remember to say "autobana" in Silesia :lol:


----------



## Kpc21

Kanadzie said:


> You had a lot of "eastern" people moving to extreme west and so on.


Maybe. Although they were moved from more or less a uniform area, so in theory they should move there together with their dialect


----------



## Eulanthe

I've found some more pictures of the Estonian-Latvia border in 1991 if anyone is interested:



















This next one is from 1993. I'm not sure if this was before the agreement to establish joint border crossings - it looks to me like this is only of the Latvian side of the border.










This is the new "economic border crossing" at Koidula in 1990.










And from the new border in Valka/Valga looking into Estonia from Latvia in 1992.


----------



## Junkie

@Kpc21 it was the same in SFR Yugoslavia. The national minorities had to adapt to Croatian and/or Serbian, because the so called joint language was used as a mother tongue by far of the most of the population. And as such it was taught in schools, although there were other two constituent languages (SLO and MK) which were taught only in the respective two federal republics. 
Back in those days there were also two national TV channels and radio. In MK there was a national republican TV that transmitted on local and also there was a joint channel that transmitted on "SerboCroatian". 
And because I am generally fluent in Croatian and Serbian I could easily pickup the accent and pronounciation and I can tell the origin of the accent. Croats pronounce very differently, while Bosnian accent is for sure quite noticeable. 
Even today I regularly watch movies and sport on the national Croatian TV and occasionally some Serbian TV stations.

As for my local, out of the capital the language sounds very "uneducated" but thats normal because the official version is always the best version its like you are getting used to it, so when you hear different dialects its getting very awkward and very funny.
In the east the pronunciation is very close to standard Bulgarian.


----------



## italystf

What was the status of Albanian language in Kosovo autonomous province (that was part of SR Serbia) during SFR Yugoslavia? Were locals allowed to use it in school, institutions, media, or thay were forced to learn and use Serbian (then officially called Serbo-Croatian)?


----------



## Junkie

No it was not official. They had their own assembly but it was not federal assembly. They maintained their language in the schools and at home, but in the constitution it was not recognized as a minority language. There were actually three constitutional languages as I said before.


----------



## Nikkodemo

*USA-Mexico 2017

February 17, 2017. (AFP / Guillermo Arias)*














































https://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/photos/2017/02/23/photos-both-sides-of-the-us-mexico-border


----------



## Nikkodemo

*USA-Mexico 2017*










*Photo by: Christian Torres
Hundreds of persons line up meet friends and relatives on the U.S. - Mexico border on the Rio Grande in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, Saturday, Jan 28, 2017. Hundreds of people from Ciudad Juarez gathered along the U.S.-Mexico border to reunite with relatives from El Paso, Texas, for a few precious minutes. (AP Photo/Christian Torres)*


http://www.washingtontimes.com/multimedia/image/mexico_rio_grande_reunions_70928jpg-7305fjpg/


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Mexico/Belize*










https://sturgischick.wordpress.com/2014/04/27/riding-from-mexico-into-belize/


----------



## darko06

Junkie said:


> ...
> There were actually three constitutional languages as I said before.


Wrong. Very wrong. There were actually four. The official language of the Socialist Republic of Croatia was "Croatoserbian", usually called or written in official documents as "Croatian or Serbian", at the end of eighties as "Croatian literary language" (hr: hrvatski književni jezik).

The term "Croatoserbian" (invented in 1922), as his derivative "Croatian or Serbian" were invented with primary purpose to maintain the difference between the four constitutional languages of former, late federation. It is usual that the people from two other former official languages (Slovenian or Macedonian) think that there were only three, because in the old times they learned Serbocroatian only. However, one may see that the Slovene Matjaž Kek, the coach of this year Croatian football champion "Rijeka" learned to speak Croatian instead of Serbocroatian, which he was compelled to learn in school, being born in 1961.


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## Tenjac

This is all incorrect.

SFR Yugoslavia had official languages defined as "languages of nations" and "languages of nationalities (meaning national minorities)". So no Croatian or Serbian or Serbocroatian or Macedonian or Slovenian or any other names were used in the constitution of SFRY. The republics had their own constitutions and they could name the official language(s) differently if they wished (and some of them did so).

All "languages of nations" and both scripts were official in Yugoslav national army too, but in practice, Serbian (or eastern variant of Serbocroatian) with latin script was commonly used.

All laws had to be published in all languages of nations together with Hungarian and Albanian. As for Albanian it was very widely used in Kosovo during that period.


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## Junkie

darko06 said:


> Wrong. Very wrong. There were actually four. The official language of the Socialist Republic of Croatia was "Croatoserbian", usually called or written in official documents as "Croatian or Serbian", at the end of eighties as "Croatian literary language" (hr: hrvatski književni jezik).
> 
> The term "Croatoserbian" (invented in 1922), as his derivative "Croatian or Serbian" were invented with primary purpose to maintain the difference between the four constitutional languages of former, late federation. It is usual that the people from two other former official languages (Slovenian or Macedonian) think that there were only three, because in the old times they learned Serbocroatian only. However, one may see that the Slovene Matjaž Kek, the coach of this year Croatian football champion "Rijeka" learned to speak Croatian instead of Serbocroatian, which he was compelled to learn in school, being born in 1961.


You made the point about the joint language that actually never existed. It was a political or ideological term although linguistically it can be considered as one. In theory that second form referred to the "same" language". And in practice it was considered as one so there were three constitutional languages. 
And I personally find them to be separated because a lot of (west) dialects has little to do with Štokavian.


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## Alex_ZR

italystf said:


> What was the status of Albanian language in Kosovo autonomous province (that was part of SR Serbia) during SFR Yugoslavia? Were locals allowed to use it in school, institutions, media, or thay were forced to learn and use Serbian (then officially called Serbo-Croatian)?


Yes, everything was bilingual, there were schools, TV station, personal documents, institutions, postal stamps, everything in Albanian and Serbo-Croatian, in some cases even Albanian was in first place. Serbs also learned Albanian at school.

Here you can see old identity card in SAP Kosovo version, Albanian language is in the first place (Republika Socialiste Federative e Jugosllavise), even that person is a Serb:


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## Junkie

SFRY had census in 1981, Kosovo autonomous province had 77% Albanians and 13% Serbs out of 1.600.000 inhabitants. But let's don't go into off-topic here.


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## Tenjac

Junkie said:


> And in practice it was considered as one so there were three constitutional languages.


Can you, please, cite the part of Yugoslav constitution from 1974 in which it was written that there are three "constitutional languages"?

You simply cannot do that, because that was not the case.


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## Junkie

Tenjac said:


> This is all incorrect.
> 
> SFR Yugoslavia had official languages defined as "languages of nations" and "languages of nationalities (meaning national minorities)". So no Croatian or Serbian or Serbocroatian or Macedonian or Slovenian or any other names were used in the constitution of SFRY. *The republics had their own constitutions* and they could name the official language(s) differently if they wished (and some of them did so).
> 
> All "languages of nations" and both scripts were official in Yugoslav national army too, but in practice, *Serbian (or eastern variant of Serbocroatian) with latin script was commonly used.*
> 
> All laws had to be published in all languages of nations together with Hungarian and Albanian. As for Albanian it was very widely used in Kosovo during that period.


First of all "Serbocroatian" was mandatory in all republics and it was practiced in schools.
Its wrong what you say since the Latin script was not that commonly used, we all know that Croats and Slovenes practiced Cyrillic script. It was again mandatory.
You say the republics had their own constitutions, but they were federal republics and were referring to the national federal constitution. We all know that in 4 out of those 6 republics, "Serbocroatian" was official language so it leave the other 2 republics with their own language. So that makes three official languages. I am noting that the autonomous provinces were not republics so Albanian and Hungarian were by no means official languages.


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## darko06

Junkie said:


> First of all "Serbocroatian" was mandatory in all republics and it was practiced in schools.
> Its wrong what you say since the Latin script was not that commonly used, we all know that Croats and Slovenes practiced Cyrillic script. It was again mandatory.
> You say the republics had their own constitutions, but they were federal republics and were referring to the national federal constitution. We all know that in 4 out of those 6 republics, "Serbocroatian" was official language so it leave the other 2 republics with their own language. So that makes three official languages. I am noting that the autonomous provinces were not republics so Albanian and Hungarian were by no means official languages.


You really have no idea what you're talking about. But it's understandable, you aren't native speaker of Croatian or Serbian. Although, you dare to lecture all of us of languages in which you are not a native speaker. How would you feel if I dare to start here with similarities between Bulgarian and Macedonian?

Others:
Late Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia issued two official gazettes. The first one was the regular, non-secret "Official gazette" (Hr: Službeni list SFRJ, Sr: Службени лист СФРЈ) in which were laws and regulations written consecutive in, one name it Croatoserbian, with Latin script and Croatian redaction, although there were as many Serbian and Bosnian words as possible, and Serbocroatian, with Cyrillic script and Serbian redaction, one may say in plain Serbian.
The second one was the secret "Official gazette", in Serbian (Serbocroatian) in Cyrillic script, issued mainly for the Yugoslav People's Army and its affairs, although in this one the government had announced so-called unpopular measures or regulations, e.g. the introduction of even-odd system of register plates in 1979, regarding to reduction of driving due to the shortage of oil. Common, Comrade Tito was still alive!
Finally, the so-called Yugoslav People's Army had it's own set of rules: Serbocroatian, or Serbian in Latin script. I didn't guess why, was it a whim of Communist government or for some reason they needed all secret or semi-secret military correspondence to be held in Latin script?


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## darko06

And in the territory of the People's Republic of Croatia, later the Socialist Republic of Croatia, people learned Latin Script in first class and Cyrillic script in third class, like Slovenes who started learning Serbocroatian and Cyrillic script in the third class (and probably like Macedonians who started learning Serbocroatian and Latin script in the third class). I learned about many Croatian citizens of Serbian nationality who fled in FR Yugoslavia and were unable to use Cyrillic script there because they even didn't learn it appropriately - in Croatia they used the Latin script.


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## MattiG

Tachi said:


> That's the current situation. As far as I know a customs union was created in 1957 with the Treaty of Rome (establishment of the EEC).


The Rome Treaty was signed in 1957, but the EEC was established in Jan 1, 1958.

The Single Market established in 1993 is not exactly the same thing as the EU Customs Union (in capital letters) but it might be thought as a customs union (in lowercase letters) plus something more.

Because the systems is overly complex and multi-layered, I would forgive minor errors in the terminology.


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## Corvinus

Just a coincidental Maps find: Spanish flag on Swiss-German border

Buch (CH) -> Gottmadingen (D)










Building does not look like a customs house, probably some individual's flag.


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## Fatfield

Re: MattiG's post - I wonder where we, the British, will be when the lunatics finally take over the asylum!


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## Eulanthe

Junkie said:


> I thought there was a customs union between France and (West) Germany prior to the common zone.


This is one of the strange things during the history of the EU. The Customs Union started in 1968, but customs checks on internal EU borders only ended in 1993 with the implementation of the Single European Act. 

Basically, between 1968 and 1993, while goods could be imported/exported between EEC members freely and without tariffs, they were still controlled and limited for personal use. There was no common EEC VAT system, for instance.

Before 1993, there were some agreements that made many borders quieter, for instance, this was where the "One Stop Control" concept came from in the 1980's, as inspections were made at a common location. As some pictures show, many of the internal EEC borders started to become irrelevant at this point for people travelling by land.

This article is worth a read - many of the things that are now normal in the EU simply didn't exist in 1988. http://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1988/02/01/70142/index.htm


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## Kpc21

Eulanthe said:


> Picture of the F-D border at Neulauterburg in 1987.
> 
> 
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> 
> An interesting follow up from a previous post. This is the DDR border at Zinnwald in 1990, which today looks completely different with the exception of the old Czech customs house.
> 
> This is from the other side - https://www.google.pl/maps/@50.7342...4!1sPOfgRz5fG-UkHmNdjR3d7A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> It's interesting how primitive the DDR border was, even compared to the Czech side.


To compare:



Kpc21 said:


> Photos taken last August - I was gonna upload them a long time ago, but now I finally managed to find time for it.
> 
> The former Lauterbourg-Neulauterburg border crossing at the French-German border.
> 
> Actually, the whole town (Lauterbourg) is in France. Just a few houses + a complex of supermarkets (Neulauterburg - "New Lauterbourg") are located in Germany.
> 
> Going from France, just before the border, the road crosses a small river. But, assuming that Google Maps is right, the actual crossing is some tens of meters (maybe 100 m) behind it.
> 
> The bridge from the French side:
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> A look back again - this is France:
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> The German speed limits sign is located not just at the border, but at the exit from the Neulauterburg town:


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## Oleg812

Austro-Hungarian Border near Pan-European Picnic location


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## Eulanthe

Another one for the collection of lesser-known old crossings in Europe.










This is the crossing of Kapciamiestis - Berżniki (LT-PL) -
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przejście_graniczne_Berżniki–Kapčiamiestis - it was only open for less than 16 months, and it doesn't seem to have had any real use. It wasn't open for vehicle traffic, so it's not like it had any forestry use. 

An interesting side point - the USSR appeared to have fortified the Polish-Lithuanian SSR border with electric wire fences in the 1980's. 

And a nice collection of photos from the Lazdijai-Ogrodniki (LT-PL) border from 1990 (I think...). The large customs shed visible in some of the pictures is still there - I think it's one of the very few original USSR-era border crossings that hasn't been demolished.











































No idea where this is from, but could it be from the Lithuanian side of the Budzisko–Kalvarija crossing?


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## alserrod

Have taken Barcelona-Paris return flight. In France, some police on arriving but noticed that previous security controls are stronger in Spain (and awful). In Spain when back, due to Schengen flight... just seen one officer and do not remember a desk about something to declare.

Passengers were mixed with boarding ones before leaving.


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## Highway89

Corvinus said:


> Just a coincidental Maps find: Spanish flag on Swiss-German border
> 
> Buch (CH) -> Gottmadingen (D)
> 
> 
> 
> Building does not look like a customs house, probably some individual's flag.


Maybe an old customs house which is now a cottage and was hosting Spanish guests at the time the photo was taken?

BTW, I've just learnt that there's a Spanish name for Schaffhausen: _Escafusa_. It's weird that the Spanish version of Google Maps uses the local name, while they use archaic names for many other places. For instance, Lubeca for Lübeck or Leópolis for Lviv. It's so ridiculous that they even use the old-fashioned names for some cities in the US named after cities in the Old World. E.g. Syracuse, NY appears as "Siracusa" :nuts:


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## Junkie

Eulanthe said:


> Another one for the collection of lesser-known old crossings in Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the crossing of Kapciamiestis - Berżniki (LT-PL) -
> https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przejście_graniczne_Berżniki–Kapčiamiestis - it was only open for less than 16 months, and it doesn't seem to have had any real use. It wasn't open for vehicle traffic, so it's not like it had any forestry use.
> 
> An interesting side point - the USSR appeared to have fortified the Polish-Lithuanian SSR border with electric wire fences in the 1980's.
> 
> And a nice collection of photos from the Lazdijai-Ogrodniki (LT-PL) border from 1990 (I think...). The large customs shed visible in some of the pictures is still there - I think it's one of the very few original USSR-era border crossings that hasn't been demolished.
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> No idea where this is from, but could it be from the Lithuanian side of the Budzisko–Kalvarija crossing?


Did Soviets needed visa to travel to the People's Republic of Poland and vice-versa?


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## alserrod

Highway89 said:


> Maybe an old customs house which is now a cottage and was hosting Spanish guests at the time the photo was taken?


I do not know... half of "known people" going to Switzerland are investigated due to corruption.




> BTW, I've just learnt that there's a Spanish name for Schaffhausen: _Escafusa_. It's weird that the Spanish version of Google Maps uses the local name, while they use archaic names for many other places. For instance, Lubeca for Lübeck or Leópolis for Lviv. It's so ridiculous that they even use the old-fashioned names for some cities in the US named after cities in the Old World. E.g. Syracuse, NY appears as "Siracusa" :nuts:



Sometimes they are Google translations. I hate it. For instance, Lille (F) is translated into Lila. I do not know who invented it and its history.

There are, indeed, few French cities with translations (Marseille, Bordeaux,... and Toulouse it has but not used) and cities and towns located near border can be translated (Hendaye - Hendaya) or cannot (Sant Jean Pied de Port is not translated).


About city names in world we could talk a lot. For instance, Los Angeles = The Angels, San Francisco = Saint Francis, La Paz = The Peace, Buenos Aires = Good Airs, Santiago = Saint James and in Portuguese... Rio de Janeiro = January River!!!!!!

but let's talk about borders better, not languages.


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## Kpc21

Highway89 said:


> BTW, I've just learnt that there's a Spanish name for Schaffhausen: _Escafusa_. It's weird that the Spanish version of Google Maps uses the local name, while they use archaic names for many other places. For instance, Lubeca for Lübeck or Leópolis for Lviv. It's so ridiculous that they even use the old-fashioned names for some cities in the US named after cities in the Old World. E.g. Syracuse, NY appears as "Siracusa" :nuts:


Some time ago (2 years or so) Google Maps started to show the Polish names of foreign cities and towns when used in the Polish version. In case of smaller towns, those names are not known so much, especially while talking about Czech Republic, Slovakia or Germany. Also some Polish names of bigger cities are not much known, like not everyone in Poland knows that the Polish name of Aachen is Akwizgran. I know Poles who were, for example, in Aachen for Erasmus, and they were always telling they are going to Aachen, not that they go to Akwizgran. Or the Poles living in Germany (especially in Cologne) often use the German name of the city: Köln, not the Polish name: Kolonia.

It's different in the East. Poles will always call Lviv Lwów and nothing else, or Vilnius will always be called Wilno. Kaunas - Kowno. Probably because of the history - those lands used to be Polish or kind-of-Polish (Lithuanian while Poland was in union with Lithuania; Lithuania was then a country bigger than Poland, covering much of the area not only of the current Lithuania, but also Belarus and Ukraine, almost reaching the Black Sea), some of those people are descendants of people living there when those areas were Polish. It's a very different kind of diaspora than the Poles living in the West. The diaspora in the West is a result of economic migration, the diaspora in the East - of changes of the borders of countries.


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## Eulanthe

But this is also dying. Most people will say Iwano-Frankiwsk rather than Stanisławów, and even places close to the border like Mościska are called that rather than the former Mostyszcza / Mostycze. Does anyone even use Królewiec these days? 

On the other hand, Lithuanian seems to be much more insane about it. Balstogė or Ščecinas anyone?

Just spotted the question by "Junkie" about visas - as far as I know, they were restricted in the same way as people from the West were. It was a pretty silly situation, but the USSR didn't trust "friendly" countries as much as they didn't trust the West. That's why the USSR had a very nasty border fence on the border with her "socialist comrades".


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## Kpc21

Królewiec is a different case because the name was simply changed. Kaliningrad is not the Russian equivalent of Królewiec or Königsberg, it's named by a Soviet politician.

It's a similar case as Łódź named Litzmanntadt during the Hitler's occupation, by a Nazi politician. The name Lodz was used in German before the WW2 and it's used again in this language since the end of the war. Litzmannstadt was a special propaganda name invented by Nazists. And the same is with Kaliningrad - it's a name established by the communist propaganda and it should actually be changed. It would have been changed already for many years if the city wasn't located in Russia.


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## Eulanthe

Another day, another historic border crossing. This time from the crossing of Kostrzyn (PL) - Kustrin Kietz (DE) in 1999, looking into Poland. This crossing only actually opened in 1991, as the border bridge was under the control of the Soviet Army up until that point. Interestingly, you can see that the Polish and German officers were working together here, which wasn't the case at many other border crossings until Poland joined the EU.


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## babaqga

Junkie said:


> Did Soviets needed visa to travel to the People's Republic of Poland and vice-versa?


First you needed an exit visa and only then you could worry about the other country letting you in.


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## Nikkodemo

*San Diego/Tijuana*


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## CNGL

alserrod said:


> I do not know... half of "known people" going to Switzerland are investigated due to corruption.
> 
> Sometimes they are Google translations. I hate it. For instance, Lille (F) is translated into Lila. I do not know who invented it and its history.
> 
> There are, indeed, few French cities with translations (Marseille, Bordeaux,... and Toulouse it has but not used) and cities and towns located near border can be translated (Hendaye - Hendaya) or cannot (Sant Jean Pied de Port is not translated).
> 
> About city names in world we could talk a lot. For instance, Los Angeles = The Angels, San Francisco = Saint Francis, La Paz = The Peace, Buenos Aires = Good Airs, Santiago = Saint James and in Portuguese... Rio de Janeiro = January River!!!!!!
> 
> but let's talk about borders better, not languages.


Try Chinese cities. Some examples: Beijing = Northern Capital, Shanghai = Over the Sea, Guangzhou = Wide State, Xi'an = Western Peace, Changsha = Long Sands, etc. But better talk about border crossings here.


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## italystf

Closed border crossing between Spain and Gibraltar in 1977


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## alserrod

Today there are some border issues that remain about that enclave. For instance, no ship coming from another Spanish harbour is allowed to depart there.

There's no problem indeed when there is no sea traffic between Gibraltar and any other corner of Spain. Should you wanna move, railway in the surroundings, motorway or whatever... but they do not import goods from Spain by ship.

But... some years ago (and in the middle of a strong border control), a common navy operation with British and Spanish ships required a call at Moron (NATO base) and later, a British ship would arrive Gibraltar for another issue.

Due to this nicetie (Moron is a NATO navy base but remains in Spain), ship had to made a call in "nowhere" for a night and arrive Gibraltar next day.

Crazy but real. Not often... but happens.


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## italystf

alserrod said:


> Today there are some border issues that remain about that enclave. For instance, no ship coming from another Spanish harbour is allowed to depart there.
> 
> There's no problem indeed when there is no sea traffic between Gibraltar and any other corner of Spain. Should you wanna move, railway in the surroundings, motorway or whatever... but they do not import goods from Spain by ship.
> 
> But... some years ago (and in the middle of a strong border control), a common navy operation with British and Spanish ships required a call at Moron (NATO base) and later, a British ship would arrive Gibraltar for another issue.
> 
> Due to this nicetie (Moron is a NATO navy base but remains in Spain), ship had to made a call in "nowhere" for a night and arrive Gibraltar next day.
> 
> Crazy but real. Not often... but happens.


That's really strange, considering that both sides are part of EU (although not of Schengen). Things will become even more complicate after Brexit, probably.

How Gibraltar is displayed on Spanish maps? Is it shown as being part of Spain, or separated by a proper international border?
Does Spain recognize that border as an international border or it's called something like "administrative boundary", like the Serbia-Kosovo border from the Serbian poin of view?


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## alserrod

It is shown as a separated side with a border and custom point (it is the narrowest border in the world with customs to be crossed by car, indeed).

There is a neutral area that has been occupied by Gibraltar (airport, stadium and few things more) but barely you will find accurate maps with that area. They just point that there is a border and that's old.


There are no odd maps or so.


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## alserrod

In addition


Michelin map











Official traffic administration web (traffic on-line situation)
http://infocar.dgt.es/etraffic/

Just look for Gibraltar area (additionally, you will see Ceuta borders but not Melilla ones. I guess it is because they manage traffic and there are no national roads there)


You can find more info in that web. Just click on any camera gif icon and will see on-line traffic in that point.

(and it can be downloaded by an app, quite useful if someone is to cross Spain)


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## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> It is shown as a separated side with a border and custom point (it is the narrowest border in the world with customs to be crossed by car, indeed).


As I recall, it has quite an ambiguous situation. Spain treats it as an external Schengen crossing, but at the same time, it's described as a "fence" and not a "frontier" in some documents. 

There's a very good example of this ambiguity here - https://www.google.pl/maps/@36.1560...gFUa4_ug!2e0!5s20160501T000000!7i13312!8i6656 - the speed limits sign is without the country code. 



> There is a neutral area that has been occupied by Gibraltar (airport, stadium and few things more) but barely you will find accurate maps with that area. They just point that there is a border and that's old.


I think Spain has given up on the neutral zone issue, as the border infrastructure and car parks have been built on the Spanish side. It wasn't always the case - I think before the closure in 1969, there was only a small guard post on the neutral zone.

Speaking of this border, it seems that this will be the only EU external border where systematic border controls won't take place.


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## alserrod

Hi

Have searched about that a Little more
In the 19th, neutral area was respected. After a disease it was requested to use neutral area and nothing happened. Several years later, second disease, area used, built a fence and neutral area annexed to Gibraltar mainland (nowadays airport, stadium and few things more)
Signal is weird at all but turning back on image there is the Tax agency that exists in every border (even harbours or airports too) and says clearly “La Linea de la concepcion Customs). Anyway, after having a custom control I guess everyone will know has crossed a border (it is not the same with Portugal and France where, in the case of Portugal you can cross border and do not know it… in the case of France it is mainly in mountain passes, but not always)
Have googled in Spanish “Gibraltar fence” and “Gibraltar border”. Second one gives, by far, more results.
About border, “fence” was close in the 60ish, opened to people in the early 80ish and traffic some months before entering Spain in the EU.
By law (or tradition, or…), roads going to borders are “national roads”. Therefore, road coming from west (which it is an avenue indeed) is a national road and maintenance is made by central government (if you do not enter in Gibraltar but keep on will be a street maintained by local council).
Local council wanted to set a toll for cars entering in Spain due to it was easy to made everyone going though “streets” instead of national road. It was matter of a couple of metres indeed, made a strong discussion between Minister and local Major and finally a Judge declared illegal to set a toll without any other option.
Nowadays (and Wednesday night Discovery channel has a special program about borders in Spain in this case) main issue is tobacco smuggling. Gibraltar citizens should smoke 39 packs of 20 cigarettes per day… or smuggle to Spain. A lot of them are catched in the border and after seeing how they keep so many tobacco in a car… you understand why every car is checked in entrance (in the other side, entering from Andorra has more problems about money entered and tax fraud and in airports…. They can find anything at all… but mainly it is easier to made controls because they have passengers names and baggages can cross through a scanner).

Should UK finish with Brexit, I guess it will be like Andorra. Few people will worry about passports (for an international flight to London police ask for ID or passport but sometimes I try to guess what would happen if I show any other document… maybe they will not notice, no worried with people going to several countries).
But customs will remain. It is as easy as going to Andorra. No controls through Andorra, neither from French/Spanish police, nor Andorran (once they stopped me and asked reason of visit but only once out of several in the same month). No passport control coming to France/Spain (just look at google maps and will see empty booths without controls) and strong custom checks when entering in EU.

There is another way to enter Gibraltar on foot and not opened by both police: through airport!!!!!
When new terminal was opened, there was a brigde over the border that will allow any Spain-Gibraltar (or any country in Schengen area to Gibraltar) enter in Spain without passport controls. For a while Iberia operated a daily flight Madrid-Gibraltar and citizens in surroundings said it was cool due to time saved… but after HSL railway opened to Malaga (makes Algeciras trains running fast until Antequera) and later crisis, flight went down.
There are no longer flights from Spain (they could be, but not today) but… as a foot border it could be used!!!!!


----------



## Ingenioren

Eulanthe said:


> Speaking of this border, it seems that this will be the only EU external border where systematic border controls won't take place.


Usually there is no checks for EU - Norway border either.


----------



## alserrod

I guess he wanted to say "Schengen area"

Monaco, San Marino, Vatican city, Andorra and so on have no passport control (in the case of Spain-Andorra they exists booths, in the case of France-Andorra, a building focused for goods, in the case of Monaco... you can go through if you travel by train and so on...)


----------



## Reivajar

Eulanthe said:


> ts.
> There's a very good example of this ambiguity here - https://www.google.pl/maps/@36.1560...gFUa4_ug!2e0!5s20160501T000000!7i13312!8i6656 - the speed limits sign is without the country code.


That's not uncommon. Actually, the sign for listing the speed limits in Spain has no country code on it like in other countries accross Europe:









_Sign S-940_

It is true that the sign with the EU stars and the name of the country is missing in La Línea-Gibraltar border as far as I know, but I would say that it is missing as well in many borders, so, not completely weird.


----------



## alserrod

In a lot of F-E borders, only department/region sign is pointed, indeed.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I took a photo of the speed limit sign at the Somport Pass (France & Spain border).


Spain speed limit sign by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> There is another way to enter Gibraltar on foot and not opened by both police: through airport!!!!!
> When new terminal was opened, there was a brigde over the border that will allow any Spain-Gibraltar (or any country in Schengen area to Gibraltar) enter in Spain without passport controls.
> 
> There are no longer flights from Spain (they could be, but not today) but as a foot border it could be used!!!!!


No, it didn't actually happen. If you look on Street View, you can see how the terminal looks unfinished at the border fence - Spain was supposed to build some infrastructure on the Spanish side of the fence which would allow travellers from La Linea to be treated as 'domestic' on Gibraltar-Madrid flights. 

It's difficult to explain, but the idea is that people could enter/exit directly to Spain while also clearing Schengen controls inside the terminal if they were coming from/going to Gibraltar on flights to the Schengen area. What made it such an unique idea was that the Spanish controls were to be physically located on the north side of the fence/frontier.

But...the infrastructure was never built. It should have been here, but it seems that the numbers flying to Madrid were so low that it was impossible to justify. 

The ideal situation for Gibraltar is to join Schengen, but whether Spain would agree to that is another question. There's already passport controls between Gibraltar and the UK, so there's no reason why Gibraltar can't join.


----------



## alserrod

I disagree... for two or three years a daily Madrid-Gibraltar operated by Iberia (today Iberia and British airways are the same company indeed!!!!) arrived there.

Due to crisis and less time on train (twice per day, sometimes three times and stations quite near than airport and cheaper fares), it was gone and never returned.

In the same treatment, not only airport terminal was built but several issues included at the same time. For instance, better telephone connection. Even if it is considered an international call, all lines come from Spain and it depends to have more phone numbers (until several decades ago, even if fence down... a call coming from Cadiz province has province fare and coming from La Linea, local call)


----------



## nenea_hartia

I know most of you are already familiar with the three-country point NED/BE/D, but I'd like nevertheless to share some pictures I have made yesterday at that place.
First, the German-Netherlands border at Aachen (D)-Vaals (NL). As you can see, there is basically a single city on both sides of the "border" and only the signs (and the Vaals Grenze bus stop) are there to remind travellers that they are crossing in another country. There is even a "Vaalser" neighbourhood in Aachen:


----------



## nenea_hartia

Former customs & border police booth?










Com'on Dutch people! Is there so much shame in being part of the EU that you need to hide it from the public? :lol:










Now about the three-country point itself. There are some scarce signs towards it, but I was expecting better directions. The street is called Viergrenzenweg ("Four borders street" in Dutch). Why four borders? Because for about 100 years, that place was the point where four borders met, during the existence of Neutral Moresnet:










Here's the three-country point with the border lines drawn at its base: front-left is The Netherlands, front-right Belgium and behind the landmark is Germany:










It was also a discreet Moresnet presence there, in the form of a "Free Moresnet - The country within us" sticker:










This is also the highest place in The Netherlands, 322,5 m :


----------



## nenea_hartia

Then I climbed the panoramic tower:


















The views are spectacular but I'm not going to post pictures of the scenery here, since this is not the appropriate thread. Instead, just three on-topic pics:


----------



## Kpc21

nenea_hartia said:


> The street is called Viergrenzenweg ("Four borders street" in Dutch).


In German.

Maybe it's the same in Dutch, I don't know.


----------



## nenea_hartia

^ It's the same in Dutch and I was technically in the Netherlands.


----------



## Kpc21

Well to know. I have checked that this street is in Netherlands and it was a bit weird (although understandable so close to the border) that it has a German name. But the idea that it may mean the same in both languages also came to my mind.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Grenzen is plural - the same in Dutch and German. But in singular there is a difference: grens in Dutch and Grenze in German. I believe the Polish word granica has the same origin.


----------



## Kpc21

According to the dictionaries, actually the German "Grenze" is... a loan word from Polish.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Grenze

In Polish it comes from "grań", which literally means the peak line of a mountain range. It seems, English uses the French word "arête" for it. And it means edge or ridge in French.

Grań in Polish meant originally the same as arête in French.

Czech have "hranica", it's the same word as "granica" in Polish.

I found a text - sadly, it's in Polish - about the etymology of the Polish word "granica" on the website of University of Warsaw: http://www.slowanaczasie.uw.edu.pl/slowo-wrzesnia-granica/

But it's not a linguistics thread... so if you want to continue the discussion, we could move, at least, to the Roadside Rest Area.


----------



## SeanT

Those countries may be smaller except for Serbia but sure not weaker


----------



## OulaL

Junkie said:


> I never understood why Slovenia and Hungary threat with fences to other weaker european countries.


How can a fence, which according to its very purpose is unable to move, and being completely located on the territory of one country, be any threat to any other country?


----------



## Junkie

OulaL said:


> How can a fence, which according to its very purpose is unable to move, and being completely located on the territory of one country, be any threat to any other country?


Because in this case the Balkan countries in the middle of Europe are not threat to anyone. We are not migrants or immigrants. And these countries even don't have equal rights like the rest of the european countries and as you can see people react to these fences because its 2017, not 1980 or something like that. 
Its funny how the very democratic Hungary is erecting a fortified electric voltage fence and at the same time accuse others (Balkan countries) for not doing their job to stop the Syrian flow. But I think the intention along with these fences is to take lives!


----------



## OulaL

What's the problem with the fence? If you have the right to go to Hungary (or Schengen area in general), then you show your documents at the border and proceed. If you don't have that right, then you are not allowed to enter. The fence is there to prevent people from doing things that they have never had right to do anyway.

A sovereign country has the right to decide, who enters its territory in addition to its own citizens, and who does not. Nothing has happened concerning the question on who has the right to enter.


----------



## Junkie

Magyars even wrote on Arabic about the danger of high voltage :lol:


----------



## italystf

OulaL said:


> How can a fence, which according to its very purpose is unable to move, and being completely located on the territory of one country, be any threat to any other country?


Because people think that freedom means allowing people going everywhere and doing anything, doesn't matter if illegally.
People all know that Schengen means freedom of movement within member states. But they tend to ignore that it also implies to control the outer border.
Spain built a fence too on the border with Morocco, but nobody blames it, maybe because its government isn't 'rebel' towards EU like the Hungarian one.
I personally don't have simpathy for Donald Trump (for things like xenophoby, denial or global warming, etc...), but I don't like how European media portrayed him as the worst guy in the Earth for building the wall with Mexico, ignoring that the wall was started by Bush and continued by Obama (but these two were OK for European politicians, so they had the right to build the wall).

Those walls do not interfere in any way in the possibility for honest people of any citizenship to travel between Spain and Marocco, Hungary and Serbia, or USA or Mexico. Wall or not wall, you still have to deal with passports, border crossings, custom and so on. It's not anything like the Iron Curtain, the Korean DMZ, the Israeli-Palestine separation wall, or the Cypriot buffer zone until 2000 or so, that effectively banned/still ban millions of people to travel.


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> Not very politically correct but funny...
> 
> https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=f47511f65b19f51292d97a5f6b3687e3&oe=5A0A92F2
> 
> https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=ccc405b2c26b5cf044788ce3293caa01&oe=5A099D75


Czech saying "thanks God"? uhmmm, not really.


----------



## SeanT

You can not cross a border without documents, so simple it is. For 40 years ago you perhaps would have been shot now you find a fence at the H border.


----------



## Nikkodemo

*EL Paso/Juarez (USA/MEX)*


El Paso, Texas by Jasperdo, en Flickr


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Chamizal National Memorial

Chamizal National Memorial commemorates the peaceful resolution of a 100 year old border dispute between the United States and Mexico. It was caused by the changing course of Rio Grande​*


Chamizal National Memorial by Jasperdo, en Flickr


Chamizal National Memorial by Jasperdo, en Flickr


Chamizal National Memorial by Jasperdo, en Flickr


Chamizal National Memorial by Jasperdo, en Flickr​


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Chamizal National Memorial

Chamizal National Memorial commemorates the peaceful resolution of a 100 year old border dispute between the United States and Mexico. It was caused by the changing course of Rio Grande​*


Chamizal National Memorial by Jasperdo, en Flickr


Chamizal National Memorial by Jasperdo, en Flickr


Chamizal National Memorial by Jasperdo, en Flickr


Chamizal National Memorial by Jasperdo, en Flickr​

Chamizal National Memorial by Jasperdo, en Flickr


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Chamizal National Memorial

Chamizal National Memorial commemorates the peaceful resolution of a 100 year old border dispute between the United States and Mexico. It was caused by the changing course of Rio Grande​*


Chamizal National Memorial by Jasperdo, en Flickr


Chamizal National Memorial by Jasperdo, en Flickr


Chamizal National Memorial by Jasperdo, en Flickr


Chamizal National Memorial by Jasperdo, en Flickr


Chamizal National Memorial by Jasperdo, en Flickr​


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Chamizal National Memorial

Chamizal National Memorial commemorates the peaceful resolution of a 100 year old border dispute between the United States and Mexico. It was caused by the changing course of Rio Grande​*


Chamizal National Memorial by Jasperdo, en Flickr

The old limits

Chamizal National Memorial by Jasperdo, en Flickr


Chamizal National Memorial by Jasperdo, en Flickr


Chamizal National Memorial by Jasperdo, en Flickr​


----------



## Kanadzie

Junkie said:


> Magyars even wrote on Arabic about the danger of high voltage :lol:


Translation:
"Touch here to win a prize!" :lol:


----------



## Corvinus

Junkie said:


> Because in this case the Balkan countries in the middle of Europe are not threat to anyone. We are not migrants or immigrants.


As you know very well, the border fortification at Hungary's Schengen external border is not in any way against Balkan countries' citizens (save for Kosovans w/o valid Schengen visa who were walking in before the Middle Eastern wave started). It is against the *uncontrollable illegal immigration* across the green border. Which was fuelled by Greece, Macedonia and Serbia not stopping the flow at their southern borders (which is, admittedly, difficult in case of islands). Macedonia improved a lot though when they became aware of the Serbia -> EU outflow slowing down.

Hungary does not regard SRB, MK, BIH, AL, .... citizen visitors as any form of general "threat", and none of them are impeded by the fence to access the Schengen space.



Junkie said:


> Its funny how the very democratic Hungary is erecting a fortified electric voltage fence and at the same time accuse others (Balkan countries) for not doing their job to stop the Syrian flow. But I think the intention along with these fences is to take lives!


1- It's not funny, it was a necessity - at the taxpayer's burden.
2- It's not the "Syrian flow", it's a general flow of migrants not honoring their obligations to co-operate with authorities (e.g. in Greece, who direct them to reception centers there). As much as 70% of these migrants are not Syrian.
3- It is a fact that GR, MK, SRB were lenient about the defense of their own borders. Especially SRB government simply relied on the incoming stream just leaving for the EU, which is exactly what happened - before the border fortifications.
4- "Intention along with these fences is to take lives" - simply trolling, or can you elaborate on that?



Junkie said:


> Magyars even wrote on Arabic about the danger of high voltage :lol:


Again, nothing funny, it is a fact that many of those attempting to cross illegally are literate in Arabic. Sign helps them to avoid unwanted consequences of attacking the fence.


----------



## Junkie

You should blame Greece for not taking any steps to stop the flow, because they are in the same club as is your country and Slovenia, etc... 
Although I personally don't blame them, the Balkan countries are NOT in that club and are constantly ignored and pushed in the corner. These countries received zero help from the rest, and legally they were NOT obliged to help your prestige club or whatever, because they are NOT in the same position and their citizens have NO equal rights as your citizens or Greek or Slovenian citizens. These countries even don't get any basic help from the rest of the so called western civilized european world. That said these small countries only tried to save their own land from harassment and were caught in the fire because some very prosperous, democratic and liberal countries like Hungary or Greece did not manage to stop the fire train coming from Syria.
Your barbed wire and glorified electric fence only shows that your government is ready to shoot just anyone that will cross illegally. It could also be citizens from your neighbouring countries as well which is AGAINST all the international conventions.


----------



## Attus

^^ Do you want to be elected in some Macedonian elections? Your post sounds like some campaign speech. If I were a Macedonian, I surely would vote for you. 
However, it has - what a surprise - nothing to do with border crossings.


----------



## CSerpent

Can we please stop this bickering about migrants and get back to some border images please?


----------



## Verso

"New" border between Slovenia and Croatia. A Slovenian concrete factory by Hotiza now belongs to Croatia.









http://lendavainfo.com/foto-mirisce-slovensko-meja-v-razkrizju-gre-po-katastru/


----------



## alserrod

According to google maps, it is in Croatia

https://www.google.es/maps/@46.5493...jvoS555iBvgHs2n7VG3w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es


----------



## keber

According to Slovenian maps and official Cadastral records, too.


----------



## embassyofaudrey

INDONESIA-MALAYSIA Border









*Border Entikong/West Kalimantan- Indonesia*









































*Heading to Indonesia*

















*Heading to Malaysia*


----------



## embassyofaudrey

INDONESIA-MALAYSIA Border










*Border Aruk - West Kalimantan/Indonesia*


----------



## embassyofaudrey

INDONESIA-MALAYSIA Border










*Border Nanga Badau - WEST KALIMANTAN/INDONESIA*

















































Crude palm oil (CPO) Truck heading to Malaysia


----------



## embassyofaudrey

*INDONESIA - TIMOR LESTE Border *










*Border Motaain- West Timor - INDONESIA*


----------



## embassyofaudrey

*INDONESIA - TIMOR LESTE Border*









*Border Motamasin - East Kombalima/West Timor - Indonesia*


----------



## embassyofaudrey

*INDONESIA - TIMOR LESTE Border*









*Wini Broder - Indonesia*


----------



## embassyofaudrey

*INDONESIA - PAPUA NEW GUINEA Border*

*Skouw Border - Papua - Indonesia*

























*Road access*


----------



## Verso

alserrod said:


> According to google maps, it is in Croatia
> 
> https://www.google.es/maps/@46.5493...jvoS555iBvgHs2n7VG3w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es





keber said:


> According to Slovenian maps and official Cadastral records, too.


Yes, but it was claimed by Slovenia and it was _de facto_ more like Slovenia. Not as much as Brezovec to the southwest, but it was more Slovenia than Croatia.


----------



## x-type

but you gambled it for 2 mugs of sea water...


----------



## Verso

1 pot of soil for 2 mugs of sea.  It would probably be given to Croatia anyway.


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Juarez/El Paso (MEX/USA)*


Sin título by pistachon279, en Flickr


Sin título by pistachon279, en Flickr


----------



## alserrod

"declaración voluntaria" in Mexican side is weird. It is correct but usually it is translated as "algo para declarar" due to more similar to the other sentence


----------



## TopWatch

Venezuela - Colombia
Tienditas Internacional Bridge 



Jota05 said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Cortesía: Los Manes del Drone._



Saludos!​


----------



## Verso

I've just discovered a way to get from Croatia to Slovenia (through the external Schengen border) without being checked at the border. This is also possible. Croatia should build a border checkpoint by this intersection, if you want to continue to inland Croatia. hno:


----------



## Junkie

^^
They should be let to join the zone that your country is long time ago. It is pity why are they not joining it. Once they join they will easily bypass SLO in every single way.


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Ciudad Juarez seen from El Paso (MEX/USA)*


Tear down this wall by Olivier Lacan, en Flickr


----------



## Nikkodemo

*The famous Derby Line*


Sin título by Richard Easson, en Flickr


Sin título by Richard Easson, en Flickr


Sin título by Richard Easson, en Flickr


Sin título by Richard Easson, en Flickr


----------



## Verso

Junkie said:


> ^^
> They should be let to join the zone that your country is long time ago. It is pity why are they not joining it. Once they join they will easily bypass SLO in every single way.


And what does your rant have to do with my post? It actually demonstrates the exact opposite.


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Brownsville/Matamoros (USA/MEX) International Bridge*


The Rio Grande at Brownsville by KUT Austin - 90.5 FM, en Flickr


The Rio Grande at Brownsville by KUT Austin - 90.5 FM, en Flickr


----------



## alserrod

¿Matamoros?. 

It is so weird... in Spain there was a village with a not far name like it and decided to change to a similar one
(means "kill islamics")


----------



## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> ¿Matamoros?.
> 
> It is so weird... in Spain there was a village with a not far name like it and decided to change to a similar one
> (means "kill islamics")


Matamoros is on the Mexican side of the border there, and a fairly large city. I always thought "moros" meant "Moors"; I would take it as referring to, well, the Arab/Muslim occupiers of Spain centuries ago, not to people today. So it never occurred to me it might be offensive. But it's your language....

I recently (like, yesterday) came across an article in French about a politician who was described as a "matamore," but I've been too lazy to look the word up.


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> Matamoros is on the Mexican side of the border there, and a fairly large city. I always thought "moros" meant "Moors"; I would take it as referring to, well, the Arab/Muslim occupiers of Spain centuries ago, not to people today. So it never occurred to me it might be offensive. But it's your language....
> 
> I recently (like, yesterday) came across an article in French about a politician who was described as a "matamore," but I've been too lazy to look the word up.


well, many translations are acceptable... and it is called after that issue.
About one year ago, a little village called "Castrillo Matajudíos" (matajudíos = jewish killer) was shifter to "Castrillo Mota de Judíos" (mota de judíos = Jewish little hill), just a little change to avoid any misunderstanding so many centuries later...


----------



## Verso

alserrod said:


> ¿Matamoros?.
> 
> It is so weird... in Spain there was a village with a not far name like it and decided to change to a similar one
> (means "kill islamics")


It's named after Mariano Matamoros.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Well, that's all right, then.

(By the way, "matamore," in French - just not to leave it hanging - means a person who brags, who pretends to be brave. The headline I saw was about a politician who'd been caught up in scandal and had to resign. And I looked up "Maure" while I was at it: it refers to the Muslim conquerors of Spain in the Middle Ages, and also to the inhabitants of Mauritania in Roman times....)


----------



## Nikkodemo

Matamoros in Mexico is just a second name of a mexican independence hero.


----------



## GrownKid

*Hranica-border*

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone could point me towards this movie, but with English subtitles, since I don't speak Hungarian, Slovak or Ukrainian (maybe I missed some other language in the movie).
It is a movie about Vel'ke Slemence/Mali Selmenci, a village cut in two overnight and split between (today) Slovakia and Ukraine.
More info: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1533039/

Thanks!


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Tecun Uman
Guatemala/Mexico*


Visita Delegación Congresista by US Embassy Guatemala, en Flickr


Visita Delegación Congresista by US Embassy Guatemala, en Flickr


Visita Delegación Congresista by US Embassy Guatemala, en Flickr


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Belize/Guatemala*


Belize-6077 by Jack Springer, en Flickr


Melchor de Mencos: Mopan River by zug55, en Flickr


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Tziscao lake, The famous natural border between Mexico and Guatemala:*


Frontera Guatemala y Chiapas by Marisol, en Flickr


Frontera Guatemala Mexico by Zeru de Giran, en Flickr


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Nogales (USA/MEX) c. 1915*


Nogales_Ambos-ca-1915 by arizonahispana, en Flickr


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Tijuana/San Ysidro a few years ago:*


Tijuana la frontera con San Ysidro by arizonahispana, en Flickr


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Mexicali/Calexico (MEX/USA) a few decades ago:*


Mexicali vista de la garita by arizonahispana, en Flickr


----------



## alserrod

What does a bus stopped in Belize in the left side?. They are right hand driving.

BTW, I found this main border where a river enters into Guatemala for a while and back to Belize

https://www.google.es/maps/@17.0568613,-89.1504586,399m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=es


Does anyone knows if Belize is a little isolated?. It is the only country in Central America that speak a different language.


----------



## Nikkodemo

alserrod said:


> Does anyone knows if Belize is a little isolated?. It is the only country in Central America that speak a different language.


Because this country once upon time was a british colony, and during the starting of spanish colonization Belize was a paradise for pirates.

Several years later the British Empire colonized this land naming British Honduras or Honduras Británica in spanish, until the 60's decade when they recovered the independence altough Belize is a Commonwealth nation.

Maybe for that reason Belizean people are not identified with their neighbours.


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Guatemala/Mexico:*


Bcycles-P1070404-web.jpg by Brendan James, en Flickr


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Nogales (USA/MEX) several years ago:*


Nogales son 5 by arizonahispana, en Flickr


Puerta de Mexico Nogales Son by arizonahispana, en Flickr


----------



## Penn's Woods

Nikkodemo said:


> Because this country once upon time was a british colony, and during the starting of spanish colonization Belize was a paradise for pirates.
> 
> Several years later the British Empire colonized this land naming British Honduras or Honduras Británica in spanish, until the 60's decade when they recovered the independence altough Belize is a Commonwealth nation.
> 
> Maybe for that reason Belizean people are not identified with their neighbours.


And doesn't Guatemala actually claim Belize's territory, so there might be a bit of a bad relationship, at least at the official level?


----------



## cinxxx

Nikkodemo said:


> *Nogales (USA/MEX) c. 1915*
> 
> 
> Nogales_Ambos-ca-1915 by arizonahispana, en Flickr


How does it look like now?


----------



## Aokromes

cinxxx said:


> How does it look like now?


Very likely:

https://www.google.es/maps/@31.3328...m4!1ss9mlQnBJxKCod_SpWS5r2w!2e0!7i3328!8i1664


----------



## Nikkodemo

cinxxx said:


> How does it look like now?


Left side Mexico, right side USA:










http://www.vmexicoalmaximo.com/sonora/img/galleries/nogales-g01-p07-frontera-estados-unidos.jpg


----------



## Nikkodemo

Penn's Woods said:


> And doesn't Guatemala actually claim Belize's territory, so there might be a bit of a bad relationship, at least at the official level?


Well, it's a little hard to explain the relationship between both countries. You can see a light info about this situation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belizean–Guatemalan_territorial_dispute


----------



## FabriFlorence

Nikkodemo said:


> *Nogales (USA/MEX) c. 1915*
> 
> 
> Nogales_Ambos-ca-1915 by arizonahispana, en Flickr


Definitely at that time crossing the border was easier...


----------



## Nikkodemo

In that decades Pancho Villa atacked Columbus, New Mexico.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Question inspired by a recent post in the Hungary forum; sorry if it's already been asked.

Are there places in Europe (or elsewhere) where a motorway/freeway/whatever crosses an international border, from what we'll call country A to country B, then soon crosses back into A without having any exits and the like in B, so that it's A's road running on B's territory? (Like Interstate 684's dip into Connecticut*, but involving different countries?)

*https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0913373,-73.7289206,13z


----------



## eeee.

Penn's Woods said:


> Question inspired by a recent post in the Hungary forum; sorry if it's already been asked.
> 
> Are there places in Europe (or elsewhere) where a motorway/freeway/whatever crosses an international border, from what we'll call country A to country B, then soon crosses back into A without having any exits and the like in B, so that it's A's road running on B's territory? (Like Interstate 684's dip into Connecticut*, but involving different countries?)
> 
> *https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0913373,-73.7289206,13z


Category "whatever":

France's D21B3:
https://goo.gl/maps/u3FeZ4g8GB52

Or D41:
https://goo.gl/maps/AGGNsCK9nj82


I'm sure you'll find some roads crossing international borders without crossroads here:
https://goo.gl/maps/ZxVSUQhGiqo


----------



## alserrod

Els Limits - Le Perthus (E-F)











First sign says in Catalan and French, be aware where you are buying parking ticket. French ones are only valid in France and Spanish ones are valid only in Spain (and I guess that in holidays in one country, everyone will park there cos free!!!)

Border is just small wall you have between cars.


----------



## OulaL

Penn's Woods said:


> Are there places in Europe (or elsewhere) where a motorway/freeway/whatever crosses an international border, from what we'll call country A to country B, then soon crosses back into A without having any exits and the like in B, so that it's A's road running on B's territory?


Here's a road closest to a motorway (though technically not one) you'll ever find in Europe, Irish N1 (northbound lanes only) briefly visiting the UK:

https://www.google.ch/maps/@54.0971353,-6.3617366,18.08z

Then again, after this point there are no more exits in Ireland, so driving here you'll end up in the UK anyway.


----------



## Penn's Woods

eeee. said:


> Category "whatever":
> 
> France's D21B3:
> https://goo.gl/maps/u3FeZ4g8GB52
> 
> Or D41:
> https://goo.gl/maps/AGGNsCK9nj82
> 
> 
> I'm sure you'll find some roads crossing international borders without crossroads here:
> https://goo.gl/maps/ZxVSUQhGiqo





alserrod said:


> Els Limits - Le Perthus (E-F)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First sign says in Catalan and French, be aware where you are buying parking ticket. French ones are only valid in France and Spanish ones are valid only in Spain (and I guess that in holidays in one country, everyone will park there cos free!!!)
> 
> Border is just small wall you have between cars.


Thanks. I was really thinking major highways. (The post on the Hungarian thread that made me ask this was a new motorway there...on the map it looks as if it may cross briefly into Austria at a couple of spots, although I'm told it doesn't.)


----------



## alserrod

Another one










Pedestrian area is Spain there until milestone where all is France, asphalt (incluiding parking area) and the another pedestrian area is France.

There are parking-metres only in French side. You have to cross avenue to get a ticket.

In one side of avenue, pharmacies, banks, post service and so on.
In the other one, all shops due to less taxes... you park the car, you take out from the right side and you are crossing border. You buy some bags, put into your car and you are crossing a border again...

You can see milestone here in maps (behind several people in the picture)

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4635...aXPnkxEThA_3Q7yYaO2g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es

and look how in one side all is in Catalan and in the other side all is in French.


----------



## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> and look how in one side all is in Catalan and in the other side all is in French.


I'd expect* businesses in a place like that - where the official language is different on one side of the street than the other - to post signs in both languages. I assume you can actually get service in either language in any of those places, except maybe government offices....

*I'm not saying they should, mind you; or shouldn't, for that matter. But you've really got one population, I imagine, of people who go to the pharmacy on the French side and the supermarket on the Spanish side because that's where the pharmacy and supermarket are; as opposed to two populations who never cross the street....


----------



## Corvinus

Penn's Woods said:


> Are there places in Europe (or elsewhere) where a motorway/freeway/whatever crosses an international border, from what we'll call country A to country B, then soon crosses back into A without having any exits and the like in B, so that it's A's road running on B's territory? (Like Interstate 684's dip into Connecticut*, but involving different countries?)


In Germany, there is a road famous for that: Bundesstraße 258, which is a federal ("trunk") road with a 3 km long piece of it running through Belgian territory. Its Wiki entry is also available in English:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesstra%C3%9Fe_258

The piece of B 258 on Belgian soil has no connection to the rest of the Belgian road network. In the past, the handling of accidents was difficult as emergency response had to arrive from Eupen, 14kms away. This was only resolved through a bilateral assistance agreement. Thereafter, German units are allowed to respond, but it is still the Belgian prosecution and court which is competent for any legal procedures.


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> I'd expect* businesses in a place like that - where the official language is different on one side of the street than the other - to post signs in both languages. I assume you can actually get service in either language in any of those places, except maybe government offices....
> 
> *I'm not saying they should, mind you; or shouldn't, for that matter. But you've really got one population, I imagine, of people who go to the pharmacy on the French side and the supermarket on the Spanish side because that's where the pharmacy and supermarket are; as opposed to two populations who never cross the street....


Matter of opinion... In the signs of picture, only side from Spain is seen. Text is in Catalan and French (not in Spanish!!), and I guess in France would be in French only and sometimes something in Spanish too.

Be sure in supermarkets they will have no problems with language. They use same currency indeed and business is business

(two decades ago, in this place https://www.google.es/maps/@42.8054...vsGekpFoM-9PZswU0i1Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es they were awared to be fined because prices were only in French Francs and law said they were entitled to put in any currency but at least in pesetas. They said they allowed pesetas of couse, but 95% of customers were French... just because 50 m away from border and a sort of duty free shop... never mind, they had to write down all prices in both currencies... or move 50m away. Nowadays it is easy... just in euro. Be sure there will welcome in a perfect French, even there, even in any other boudanry village or so)


----------



## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> Matter of opinion... *In the signs of picture, only side from Spain is seen. *Text is in Catalan and French (not in Spanish!!), and I guess in France would be in French only and sometimes something in Spanish too.
> 
> Be sure in supermarkets they will have no problems with language. They use same currency indeed and business is business
> 
> (two decades ago, in this place https://www.google.es/maps/@42.8054...vsGekpFoM-9PZswU0i1Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es they were awared to be fined because prices were only in French Francs and law said they were entitled to put in any currency but at least in pesetas. They said they allowed pesetas of couse, but 95% of customers were French... just because 50 m away from border and a sort of duty free shop... never mind, they had to write down all prices in both currencies... or move 50m away. Nowadays it is easy... just in euro. Be sure there will welcome in a perfect French, even there, even in any other boudanry village or so)


I looked at both sides of the street in StreetView. Even saw a French post office.

And it makes sense they'd be required to post prices in the currency that's legal for the country in; using the other country's currency in addition, as a courtesy, is different.*

What was it like before Schengen?


*In the Northeastern U.S., if you get far enough north on roads that have significant traffic to and from Canada, you'll see signs at businesses saying "Canadian dollars accepted at par." (Maybe even in French.) "At par" means if the price on something is, say $2.00, and all you have on you is Canadian, you can pay $2.00 Canadian for it. Which is a good deal at the moment for traveling Canadians, not for the businesses....


----------



## alserrod

There were no buildings before Schengen treaty. 


Former booths are just some metres before... and I do not know why (picture taken on summer 2015) there are oficers on Spanish side... they are the only Spanish buildings "after booths" (providing new border passes don't have booths).

Both booths, French and Spanish, are in Spanish territory, maybe for 20 metres, later, lane through north remains in Spain and through south is yet in France and later, all avenue will be in France except buildings in right side.


About currencies, they always upgraded to next one. It could be a messy-blessy... but should any price would be 14,78 French Francs, they will set 15 or so. And they weren't shifting everyday according to daily currency exchange. They often took this money and went to France for a bank account and, when enough money, ask for a bank transfer in order to minimize bank cost (keeping a lot of money in the shop would be dangerous and going everyday with Francs to their bank would mean a daily eyxchange fee). This is why they are happy if you pay with credit card.
In addition, I have seen (with euro) a petrol station not far from border with specific data payers for French credit cards. I guess fees for cards would be station and nowadays, a bank transfer in euro between EU banks is free.


----------



## italystf

Slovenian road 402 crosses for 1.5 km into Italy, without connections with Italian roads.
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.9807006,13.6281613,15z


----------



## alserrod

why it remains fenced?


----------



## piotr71

italystf said:


> Slovenian road 402 crosses for 1.5 km into Italy, without connections with Italian roads.
> https://www.google.com/maps/@45.9807006,13.6281613,15z


Photography is not allowed on this stretch.


----------



## keokiracer

^^ There is streetview though


----------



## italystf

piotr71 said:


> Photography is not allowed on this stretch.


I don't think it's an issue anymore.


----------



## Tachi

Wasn't this place evacuated/abandoned by the Turks just before the rise of IS?
Does anyone know what the current situation is?


----------



## CrazySerb

Whatever the state, it will have to be relocated - there's no place for that in New Syria :yes:


----------



## Robi_damian

alserrod said:


> Matter of opinion... In the signs of picture, only side from Spain is seen. Text is in Catalan and French (not in Spanish!!),


Yeah, I never got how Catalan authorities can put up signage in just one of the official languages and get away with it (literally everywhere). In Euskadi, where I Erasmus-ed, they are very particular about such things and signage is bilingual in all places.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Robi_damian said:


> Yeah, I never got how Catalan authorities can put up signage in just one of the official languages and get away with it (literally everywhere). In Euskadi, where I Erasmus-ed, they are very particular about such things and signage is bilingual in all places.




Is it the authorities or private businesses? I know that in both Belgium and Quebec different rules apply to signage put up by the government and by other parties. (And in Quebec, it's French-only on provincial and local government facilities, bilingual on Federal ones. Which - to get back to roads - leads to the phenomenon of signs switching from French-only to bilingual when you come onto the Champlain Bridge, which crosses the Saint Lawrence at Montreal, and certain approaches, then back to French-only when you leave, while otherwise complying with Quebec's sign format.)


----------



## alserrod

Robi_damian said:


> Yeah, I never got how Catalan authorities can put up signage in just one of the official languages and get away with it (literally everywhere). In Euskadi, where I Erasmus-ed, they are very particular about such things and signage is bilingual in all places.


Political issues.

BTW, it is compulsory to have all road signs at least in Spanish. Should it is not, you can say you haven't understood and will win in court.

What it happens is that 99,99% of those non-bilingual signs are for a specific restriction.

Let's suppose. A sign that says, park forbidden, and below written, "only in Wednesday".

Should you "understand" that sentence even if not in Spanish, ok, park anyday except in Wednesday. Should you do not understand... just do not park there. Text doesn't mean anything for you and just take care of sign (which you will understand).

Therefore, as far as most of texts are to point anything not so hard than signal... it is your issue to understand or do not them...


In the case of sign, they play in this way... two besides parking-metres, one in each country, maybe in each language or maybe you can choose several languages. They just remember in which country you are and saying that tickets are only valid there. You can understand or you can get a map to see it and be awared that parking companies have contract in one or other country, even located together.


----------



## cinxxx

Is there a way to cross between Spain and Portugal over the Guariana river in the south besides the Ponte Internacional do Guadiana?
Do you have to pay toll for the short motorway stretch over the bridge when crossing into Spain? Same question just crossing into Portugal?

I see there is another bridge at Pomarão but this means a really long detour.

I also see there is a ferry at Ayamonte. How much does it cost to cross by car?


----------



## arctic_carlos

cinxxx said:


> Is there a way to cross between Spain and Portugal over the Guadiana river in the south besides the Ponte Internacional do Guadiana?


Yes, of course: :troll:










http://www.limitezero.com/en/



cinxxx said:


> Do you have to pay toll for the short motorway stretch over the bridge when crossing into Spain? Same question just crossing into Portugal?


The Spanish motorway (A-49) is toll free. While the Portuguese motorway (A22) has electronic tolls, you don't need to pay if you leave it at the first exit after the border (Castro Marim).



cinxxx said:


> I see there is another bridge at Pomarão but this means a really long detour.


That bridge is not on the Guadiana river, but on the Chanza/Chança river. From Pomarão upstream the Guadiana flows entirely within Portugal.



cinxxx said:


> I also see there is a ferry at Ayamonte. How much does it cost to cross by car?


The ferry is only for pedestrians (€1.9), bikes (€3.1) and motorbikes (€3.9). It's quite a small ferry:










http://transportefluvialguadiana.sacatuentrada.es/idioma/es


----------



## cinxxx

^^The zip line is actually really cool.
I asked the question because we will be in the area first week of January. Are they still doing it then or is it just a seasonal activity? I also didn't find a schedule for this


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ I've just checked their website (where you can book the activity for a particular date and time) and unfortunately they're closed between the second week of December and late March.


----------



## bogdymol

Some statistics: first half of 2017, number of people trying to illegaly enter or exit Romania:
- 1437 people entering Romania (mostly coming from Serbia)
- 1037 people exiting Romania (mostly trying to cross towards Hungary)

In the first half of last year there were 374 respectively 133.

Most of the people were coming from these countries: Irak, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey, India, Kosovo, Bangladesh and Palestine.

Press article in Romanian here.


----------



## MichiH

bogdymol said:


> Some statistics: first half of 2017, number of people trying to illegaly enter or exit Romania:


How have they counted them?

Seriously, I think it's only the number of *catched* people. The actual number is usually (much) higher...
The increase might be caused by a higher number of illegal crossings but it could also be caused by an improved observation, e.g. more border patrol men...


----------



## Corvinus

MichiH said:


> How have they counted them?
> 
> Seriously, I think it's only the number of *catched* people. The actual number is usually (much) higher...


Of course, these figures will be the *known* number of people. 
It's no different in Hungary where police.hu publishes the "number of migrants" for every day. "Number of migrants" is the number of intercepted illegal entrants. Especially before the completed border fence, there were masses of non-stopped illegals in addition to those figuring in the statistics.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Hungarian army guarding border with the Republic of Serbian Krajina somewhere between 1991 and 1995:






You can notice today's border crossing Udvar (H)-Duboševica (HR) in the end of video.


----------



## Junkie

^^
LOL
A "Republic" and a border.


----------



## Palance

This one is also interesting: Nowadays the border crossing Maljevac between Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

During the war this was the border between 2 breakup states: Republika Srpska Krajina (declared independent from Croatia) and Zapadna Bosna (West Bosnia, declared indepenent from Bosnia-Herzegovina).


----------



## parcdesprinces

Nikkodemo said:


> *The tomb of Suleyman Shah, a Turkish enclave in Syrian Territory*


Speaking of which, here is its French equivalent (if I may say so ) in St. Helena :



parcdesprinces said:


> [...] a part of this British overseas territory is directly managed/owned by the French government (a bit like an embassy/consulate), since the Queen Victoria allowed her friend Napoleon III to buy this ground & Longwood House in order to create a memorial :yes::


:bowtie:


----------



## Kanadzie

Penn's Woods said:


> Is it the authorities or private businesses? I know that in both Belgium and Quebec different rules apply to signage put up by the government and by other parties. (And in Quebec, it's French-only on provincial and local government facilities, bilingual on Federal ones. Which - to get back to roads - leads to the phenomenon of signs switching from French-only to bilingual when you come onto the Champlain Bridge, which crosses the Saint Lawrence at Montreal, and certain approaches, then back to French-only when you leave, while otherwise complying with Quebec's sign format.)


^^ those bilingual signs are owned and maintained by the Federal government via the Federal Bridge Corporation much as is the Champlain bridge in its entirety and the approaches to it and so must abide the _Official Languages Act_. There is a similar but less obvious situation at the Burlington Bay Lift Bridge between Hamilton Beach and Burlington, Ont.

Meanwhile in Quebec municipalities can post bilingual signs, but only if they are a designated bilingual municipality which requires a certain population of anglophones (min. 20% ?) It was a sore point during the provincially-driven merger of the Montreal Island municipalities into the City of Montreal (slogan "une ile, une ville") since generally anglophone bilingual suburbs of the West Island would have lost that status. It was such that the next provincial government allowed the cities to hold referenda on demerging from the City of Montreal, which many did (e.g. Pointe-Claire, Kirkland, Beaconsfield...)


----------



## SRC_100

Alex_ZR said:


> Hungarian army guarding border with the Republic of Serbian Krajina somewhere between 1991 and 1995:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can notice today's border crossing Udvar (H)-Duboševica (HR) in the end of video.


I rememeber that in Mohács many hungarians were killed because of war in Slavonja, in this town is even a monument commemorating the victims of falling bombs and/or missiles. I can`t rememeber how many Hungarians were killed in Mohács? Why only after this tragic event, the Hungarian government sent troops to this region? For me it is incomprehensible.


----------



## Palance

Was it possible to cross the border between Hungary and Krajina?


----------



## bogdymol

Look at 2:17. I think not.


----------



## Junkie

Those so called self proclaimed borders were not international nor state borders, and they were part of only one socialist republic because in SFRY there were republican borders and it was in the constitution that the republican borders were drawn.
It is really funny how someone proclaims its own borders in a war zone and the others are asking if its (was) possible to pass there.


----------



## italystf

OSM recognizes the sovereign principality of Liberland :troll:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/45.7668/18.8714


----------



## Metred

Robi_damian said:


> Yeah, I never got how Catalan authorities can put up signage in just one of the official languages and get away with it (literally everywhere). In Euskadi, where I Erasmus-ed, they are very particular about such things and signage is bilingual in all places.


Actually many rural areas have Basque-only signage. Example.


----------



## Eulanthe

Palance said:


> Was it possible to cross the border between Hungary and Krajina?


Yes. The RSK borders were never formally closed, not with Croatia or other countries. Generally speaking, passage was possible if you had the right connections or the right papers. 

Of course, reality on the ground meant that Croats or Germans were absolutely unwelcome in the RSK, but for those not connected to the war or from "friendly" countries (like Russia), they could go to the RSK. The problem was that many of the paramilitaries operating there were a law onto themselves, so you could easily find yourself in trouble if you encountered a drunk local commander at a checkpoint. 

But from a purely academic point of view, the borders were open both ways. Croatia didn't recognise the RSK (and their attitude was very much like the West's attitude towards East Berlin - "we're here, and if you want to go there, it's none of our business") and the RSK was desperate for recognition, so they didn't seal the borders, though it would have been nearly impossible for them to do so anyway. 

I think the Croatian-Yugoslav border was formally closed in Konavle though after the Yugoslav withdrawal. 

From what I can tell, the reason for the border crossing being empty there is simply because the RSK was really ruined economically, and many people wouldn't have had passports recognised for travel, as they would have been expected to hold Croatian, not Yugoslav passports. Likewise, there would have been little of interest in the RSK for Hungarians.

What I've always wondered about was how border controls functioned between the RSK and the Republika Srpska. For sure they existed, but how and in what form, I have no idea.


----------



## italystf

^^I'm pretty sure that nobody would ever have thought to venture in those lands during the war, except locals, militaries, aid workers and journalists, as the area was an extremely dangerous war zone, where you could have been killed on the street. Zagreb, Rijeka and Pula were probably the last places one could go normally. So it's obvious that there was no regular touristic/commercial traffic at those border crossings.

Kraijna republic was made by two different areas not connected each other: one in Dalmatia, that was returned to Croatia in 1995, and the other in Slavonia (with the infamous Vukovar), that remained under Yugoslav occupation until 1998.


----------



## cinxxx

^^Why Pula? Afaik Istria was not hit by the war...


----------



## italystf

cinxxx said:


> ^^Why Pula? Afaik Istria was not hit by the war...


Yes, the area between Istria, Kvarner and Zagreb was not affected by war, while going south towards Lika and Dalmatia or east towards Slavonia was dangerous, as there were fightings between Croat and Yugoslav army.


----------



## stickedy

italystf said:


> Yes, the area between Istria, Kvarner and Zagreb was not affected by war, while going south towards Lika and Dalmatia or east towards Slavonia was dangerous, as there were fightings between Croat and Yugoslav army.


After the breakout there was a long period of somehow peace with just some minor fightings on occasion. But yeah, there were not much foreign people in this area. However, that was a different situation than in RSK at all.


----------



## Corvinus

Dörflingen (CH) -> Randegg (D). This is a very local road, thus there are no facilities and permanent staff despite being an EU external and therefore a customs border. The Swiss post an extra sign for reminding travelers they are only allowed to cross if nothing to declare (i.e. only goods within the duty-free allowance). The Germans post a simple and clear _Bundesadler_. 

1. looking into Germany











2. looking back into Switzerland. The border marker carries the Swiss cross, half outshone by the evening sun.











3. Close-up of the Swiss customs information sign


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Yes, the area between Istria, Kvarner and Zagreb was not affected by war, while going south towards Lika and Dalmatia or east towards Slavonia was dangerous, as there were fightings between Croat and Yugoslav army.


Karlovac was in war, so I'm not sure if you could've travelled from Zagreb to Rijeka (except through Slovenia). Croats should know.


----------



## italystf

stickedy said:


> After the breakout there was a long period of somehow peace with just some minor fightings on occasion. But yeah, there were not much foreign people in this area. However, that was a different situation than in RSK at all.


Dubrovnik was heavily bombed by Serbs/Yugoslavs, and also Zadar, Split and Sibenik (in a lesser extent).


----------



## metasmurf

*Sweden/Norway border on highway E12*

Pics taken by me.


----------



## Eulanthe

italystf said:


> ^^I'm pretty sure that nobody would ever have thought to venture in those lands during the war, except locals, militaries, aid workers and journalists, as the area was an extremely dangerous war zone, where you could have been killed on the street.


It wasn't that bad, as long as the locals had no reason to hate you and you stayed away from the front lines. If you were - for example - Hungarian and travelling through to your friend in one of the suburbs of Vukovar, then you wouldn't have been at any harm.



> Zagreb, Rijeka and Pula were probably the last places one could go normally. So it's obvious that there was no regular touristic/commercial traffic at those border crossings.


They were all quite ok during the war. Zagreb was only attacked a couple of times at the beginning and end of the war, Rijeka was nowhere near the front line, neither was Pula. There was still tourism to Istria during the war, as the really dangerous parts were in the hinterland. Even Split/Zadar were safe once the Yugoslav Navy withdrew, though it was quite dangerous to go there overland due to the fighting in Lika.

There was definitely commercial traffic going through these border crossings - a lot of goods were smuggled in from both Hungary and Romania into Serbia and the RSK. In particular, a lot of fuel went through Hungary, Romania and Serbia into the Republika Srpska in spite of the sanctions against Serbia.

It's also worth pointing out that the areas not on the front line were pretty calm. If you were Hungarian and delivering petrol to Vukovar in 1993, it's unlikely that anyone would have bothered you, except needing to bribe your way by the Hungarian border guards. 



Verso said:


> Karlovac was in war, so I'm not sure if you could've travelled from Zagreb to Rijeka (except through Slovenia). Croats should know.


You could, as Sajinovic (in the south of Karlovac) was the front line. Karlovac itself was shelled quite a lot, but it was still possible to move between Zagreb and Istria freely.


----------



## stickedy

italystf said:


> Dubrovnik was heavily bombed by Serbs/Yugoslavs, and also Zadar, Split and Sibenik (in a lesser extent).


Yes, but that was mainly at the outbreak of the war in 1991. From End of 1991 to early of 1993 there was a ceasefire and there were just a few fightings and military operations (mostly of the Croatian army to take back land). And at the end of the war, RSK had no power for any bigger impact since the JNA retreated early 1992 from Croatia.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> OSM recognizes the sovereign principality of Liberland :troll:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/45.7668/18.8714


Until recently there were 8 small _terrae nullius_ between Slovenia and Croatia along the Mura river, but no one noticed. In fact, since Croatia doesn't recognize the result of the arbitration, there is a new small _terra nullius_ formed. Someone should hurry up and take it. It has a big chance to succeed, because unlike Liberland, this place really isn't wanted by either state. Unfortunately it measures just 0.06 km2. :troll:


----------



## Junkie

^^
Yes because that result favor SLO. So they are not recognizing it.


----------



## alserrod

Do you remember the case of the tiny island that belongs to Spain for 6 months and back to France for another 6 months?

Here's a little bit more about its history.

Tomorrow it will be French again... for next six months.

It is the smallest case of binational area in the world as the article says











https://politica.elpais.com/politic..._309059.html#?ref=rss&format=simple&link=guid


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> ^^I'm pretty sure that nobody would ever have thought to venture in those lands during the war, except locals, militaries, aid workers and journalists, as the area was an extremely dangerous war zone, where you could have been killed on the street. Zagreb, Rijeka and Pula were probably the last places one could go normally. So it's obvious that there was no regular touristic/commercial traffic at those border crossings.
> 
> Kraijna republic was made by two different areas not connected each other: one in Dalmatia, that was returned to Croatia in 1995, and the other in Slavonia (with the infamous Vukovar), that remained under Yugoslav occupation until 1998.


exactly. nobody had to do anything in those occupied teritories because it was heavy war zone. on the other hand, since that Krajina thing was never internationaly recognized, their citizens were allowed to have only documents of the soveirign country on whose land they lived: Croatia. Krajina didn't recognize nor accept Croatian documents, and they didn't allow anybody to enter there with Croatian documents. so basically, if one would exit from there, could not return (but there was also no reasons to return there to the war zone, nobody even tried it).


----------



## Palance

As far as I know it was, especially during the last year of thr war, possible to cross the border on the highway Zagreb-Beograd, which ran partly through RSK-territory.


----------



## CNGL

In less than a hour Spain will lose the Pheasant Island to France. But we'll take it back in February . This was established by the Treaty of the Pyrenees, signed in the island back in the 17th Century.


----------



## italystf

India - Myanmar border crossing

https://forum.camperonline.it/viaggiare/viaggi-all-estero/myanmar-birmania-via-terra/187508

There are two photos at the beginning of the thread linked. I'm not able to post them directly because they're hosted in Tinypics, that is banned on SSC.


----------



## abdeka

Rush hour at the Algerian-Tunisian border checkpoint of Oum Tboul, Algeria



















https://www.facebook.com/Infotraficalgerie1/


----------



## alserrod

these days at Jaca it had taken place a yearly festival.

It is an area that receives a lot of people from anywhere, and most of foreing people are French (Somport tunnel is 20 km ahead only).

In the past, several times French and Spanish officers have been walking together in town and villages not far from border in both countries, but first time in Jaca










As they said, French citizens were surprised due to their presence and seems, no special cases to take care but they want to increase collaboration in order to know each side of border and best service.
In this case, they chose maybe the weekend with more French people and knew that, should they had to go to a police station, they would have a translator, in this case, or just a question in the streets or that stuff.


----------



## Nikkodemo

So many VW vehicles in that area of the Magreb!

mg:


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## andre_e

*Some of Chile's Intl' Crossings.*


----------



## alserrod

Which is third language in signs?

Last pictures seems to be a joined border control. Are they strong or just a glance to passport and so?


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## trilobitas

Latvia - Lithuania


----------



## alserrod

I guess no booths for international trains. Is there much traffic for these journeys?


----------



## Junkie

Nice picture of the locomotive. Some countries like here in the Balkans we are even not connected with our neighbours with any train tracks hno:


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## alserrod

I guess that this one is, by far, the weirdest railway border pass. Isn't it?

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4156354,130.6412298,317m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=es


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## Kpc21

Actually, it was crossed by a European (Austrian) a few years ago, although it's officially not available for non-Northern Koreans (I am not sure about Russians from this region).

A very interesting reading: http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com

By the way, if half of Europe wasn't missing, if he started e.g. in Portugal, it would be probably the longest possible train-only trip in the world, close to a straight line.


----------



## alserrod

Quite interesting... a lot of days and "only" 3.100 euros. Not expensive at all

About long train journeys, it is signed to have, at least once per year a Beijing-Madrid, calling in several warehouses areas. I do not know how much do they take but faster than by ship


----------



## Kpc21

Anyway the Moscow - Pyongyang train is, supposedly, the longest train connection in the world.

For sure the longest one available for passengers.

With this Beijing - Madrid train, are you talking about a passenger or freight trains?

Currently, there is a freight train that terminates in Łódź, Poland and connects the city with China.


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## alserrod

freight one... and I do not remember if it has run twice or three times already


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## Nikkodemo

alserrod said:


> Which is third language in signs?


In the north of Chile the language is in Aymara.

In the south must be Mapuche.


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## CSerpent

andre_e said:


> *Some of Chile's Intl' Crossings.*


Loving the German RV on here, long trip for it! Reminds me of the French one I saw outside Toronto and the BC plated motorcycle I saw in North East England!

For anyone interested, this Swiss guy did a trip from Vienna to Pyongyang via a backdoor method through the Moscow rail service that he shouldn't have been able to!


----------



## Verso

^^ He's an Austrian from Graz and he's also a member of this forum (nachalnik).


----------



## Kpc21

I already mentioned it (about this blog report and his very exceptional trip) a few posts ago.

It's nice to learn that he is also on SSC 

Anyway, it's probably impossible to do what he did any more.

He even has his photo in a North Korean train in his avatar! So it seems it's really him: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/member.php?u=291278

It's crazy that I read his post in the Polish SSC section half a year ago, I was even going to answer to him (but it turned out, others did it before me), I must have noticed this photo in his avatar then and I didn't connect those facts.

Even though having such a photo is not such a big problem (it's demanding, but it's nothing compared with crossing the Russian - North Korean border and getting to Pyongyang), you just have to go to Russia and use this train on the Russian section, without crossing the border to North Korea. But he actually WAS in North Korea having CROSSED this border! This makes it so special.


----------



## Junkie

Did the recent attack changed the procedures on the border in Spain?


----------



## alserrod

Junkie said:


> Did the recent attack changed the procedures on the border in Spain?


No (and Catalonia keeps border with Andorra and France... but nothing changed. They focus in a strong surveillance over Barcelona and with the idea that all collaborators are in the surroundings. One brother of one attacker has been catched in a town not far from France and seems they had a little infrastructure there)


----------



## Junkie

But Catalonia is not even a separate country so why should Catalonia keep those international borders? I don't understand this and also what I find weird is the fact that, at least what I can see, Spain is not meddling in this incident but anyway Catalonia is part of Spain...


----------



## alserrod

Junkie said:


> But Catalonia is not even a separate country so why should Catalonia keep those international borders? I don't understand this and also what I find weird is the fact that, at least what I can see, Spain is not meddling in this incident but anyway Catalonia is part of Spain...


It is a quite complex situation... first of all, it is known that part of political side in Catalonia wanna make a poll to ask independence. Another issue is if they would be recognised and, being independent means not belonging to EU from minute 0 at first, what they wanna avoid too (these politicians really wanna all).

Anyway, some regions have their own polices (and all main towns and cities have local polices... for local issues) which could be a nightmare for a foreing indeed!

Catalonia has a strong police force who have dealed almost all about incidents (have read that Guardia civil has played in the town where first explosions took place).

The issue is if it is about national security. Something like in the US would be for FBI or state police... in this case it is being the state police for almost all things.

By constitution, borders cannot be "transferred" to regional governments and remain kept by national police. This month, Barcelona airport has had a regular surveillors strike (after tense days they went down on strike after attacks). It was national police (civil guard indeed) who went to inforce situation because it is a border.

French border has no controls. In Andorra they just check inmigration for goods by civil guard (and it is weird... this force is who fines in roads in the rest of Spain except in Catalonia and Basque country, if you see a civil guard there you know it is a custom control, a Catalan police, road control...)

A friend worked in Reus airport as national police officer. He said it was a nightmare:
- passport control, dealed by national police
- baggage control, dealed by civil guard
- security inside airport, dealed by Catalan police
- traffic control, (to be fined if bad parking, for instance), dealed by Reus local police!!!



Anyway, as difference with French attacks, really not special controls on airports, stations, borders or so...


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## Singidunum

On exit from Serbia to Croatia waiting times were 7+ hours today http://www.b92.net/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2017&mm=08&dd=19&nav_category=12&nav_id=1294819


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## Kpc21

Why so long? And wasn't it possible to make a detour and use another checkpoint? Probably even going through Bosnia (with doubled control) would be faster than 7 hours of waiting.


----------



## Junkie

Kpc21 said:


> Why so long? And wasn't it possible to make a detour and use another checkpoint? Probably even going through Bosnia (with doubled control) would be faster than 7 hours of waiting.


Double check control is there also, you get single control only on Croatia-Slovenia border. That route is always overcrowded due to many "gastarbeiters"


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## tfd543

Use some of the nothern local borders. Either Sid or the 3 borders going to Llok. Dont remember if all of them are international, opening hours and if they are only for EU citizens


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## tfd543

tfd543 said:


> Use some of the nothern local borders. Either Sid or the 3 borders going to Llok. Dont remember if all of them are international, opening hours and if they are only for EU citizens




Just to mention, if you take the detour via the nothern borders, do yourself a favour and pay a visit to the historical town of Vukovar.


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## Kpc21

Junkie said:


> Double check control is there also, you get single control only on Croatia-Slovenia border. That route is always overcrowded due to many "gastarbeiters"


Yes, but through Bosnia you would have four controls instead of two. Which would still probably be faster.

In Poland, when there are too long queues at the toll gates on the A1 motorway, they just open the gates and make the ride temporarily free to unjam the motorway. Unfortunately doing something like that at a border checkpoint (so long as the countries are not in Schengen) doesn't seem to be possible - but they could employ more people and make the controls as fast as possible. Or do something else to improve the efficiency. I can imagine that they could take the more suspicious cars on the side and make them wait for a detailed check in the queue together, and regarding the others (where checking and stamping the passport is enough), do only as basic control as possible. So that a detailed check, for those who need scanning the luggage, searching the car if they don't smuggle anything etc., would be made only at one of the stands, and at others only the basic one.


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## arctic_carlos

Junkie said:


> But Catalonia is not even a separate country so why should Catalonia keep those international borders? I don't understand this and also what I find weird is the fact that, at least what I can see, Spain is not meddling in this incident but anyway Catalonia is part of Spain...


Catalonia (the territory) has of course international borders with France and Andorra, but these borders are NOT managed by the Catalan government. Spain (the central State) is exclusively competent to manage all its international borders.

Besides, in Catalonia there's an autonomous police (_Mossos d'Esquadra_) which is mostly competent in issues of internal security (like the different state police bodies in the USA), whereas the Spanish police (_Policía Nacional_ and _Guardia Civil_) is competent in other fields (terrorism, drug trafficking and, of course, border controls).

I hope now it's clear.


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## Junkie

Kpc21 said:


> Yes, but through Bosnia you would have four controls instead of two. Which would still probably be faster.
> 
> In Poland, when there are too long queues at the toll gates on the A1 motorway, they just open the gates and make the ride temporarily free to unjam the motorway. Unfortunately doing something like that at a border checkpoint (so long as the countries are not in Schengen) doesn't seem to be possible - but they could employ more people and make the controls as fast as possible. Or do something else to improve the efficiency. I can imagine that they could take the more suspicious cars on the side and make them wait for a detailed check in the queue together, and regarding the others (where checking and stamping the passport is enough), do only as basic control as possible. So that a detailed check, for those who need scanning the luggage, searching the car if they don't smuggle anything etc., would be made only at one of the stands, and at others only the basic one.


I think it is generally not possible to improve the efficiency. Because after many attacks the controls get more serious and this is more broader issue.
Generally smugglers operate at night and they have contacts in the customs so they can pass or they do it quickly. It is very organizied.
But I find it more weird why after many attacks borders dont get more special treatment. Only after France attacks there were things like that.


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## Kpc21

How could such a special treatment help?

The terrorist attackers in European cities are often just normal people, sometimes living in the city where they attacked for years...

And even if an actual terrorist travels to the country through the border crossing, in order to do the attack in one of the cities - how do you detect him? Do they have magic scanners at the border crossings which can tell: this person is a terrorist, this one isn't?

Unless the person is in a kind of database, but this would be detected immediately at the passport check.


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## abdeka

Always the summer rush hour at the Algerian-Tunisian border checkpoint of Oum Tboul, Algeria ^^









https://www.facebook.com/soraya.relizani


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## cinxxx

*Kosovo and Albania (Qafë Morinë - Gjakovë)*

Border Crossing Qafa Morina - Gjakova by cinxxx, on Flickr

Border Crossing Qafa Morina - Gjakova by cinxxx, on Flickr

and back...

Border Crossing Qafa Morina - Gjkova by cinxxx, on Flickr


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## italystf

^^ Where are border controls?


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## cinxxx

^^In the first picture you can see the Kosovar outpost (right behind of the 3rd picture). 
Btw, controls were done only by the entering side, cars were waved through the leaving booths (and only the entering side was actively controlling).


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## Junkie

^^
Do you know if one can legally cross between Montenegro and Kosovo ?


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## italystf

Junkie said:


> ^^
> Do you know if one can legally cross between Montenegro and Kosovo ?


Why not? It looks like there are 2 border crossings between RKS and MNE.
Interestingly, one of the two roads is numbered M-9 on both sides of the border. Probably they kept Yugoslavian numbers.


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## Junkie

italystf said:


> Why not? It looks like there are 2 border crossings between RKS and MNE.
> Interestingly, one of the two roads is numbered M-9 on both sides of the border. Probably they kept Yugoslavian numbers.


The first sentence what you say is not true at all. Because there are no control booths and there is a road blockage and you can check that on GE.


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## italystf

Junkie said:


> The first sentence what you say is not true at all. Because there are no control booths and there is a road blockage and you can check that on GE.


Sorry, but since those countries maintain diplomatic relations between each other, I though the border was open.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo–Montenegro_relations


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## cinxxx

^^The border is not completely defined there and until that happens they won't open that border crossing.


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## Eulanthe

Junkie said:


> I think it is generally not possible to improve the efficiency.


It is possible. There are plenty of potential solutions, such as allowing pre-screened travellers the possibility of crossing the border without presenting documents. The US NEXUS system does just that - https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/nexus 

The problem is also the design of border crossings. A much more logical solution for borders that are likely to remain outer EU borders for a long time is to have a first line passport check, then have a system of green or red lights to direct cars into a secondary inspection area. The police checking identities can make the initial appraisal if a car should be inspected with the touch of a button, and with some sensible design, it would be possible to considerably speed up the process for those that are deemed to be of no risk.


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## Alex_ZR

Junkie said:


> ^^
> Do you know if one can legally cross between Montenegro and Kosovo ?


Yes, there is border crossing Kula.


----------



## Palance

italystf said:


> Why not? It looks like there are 2 border crossings between RKS and MNE.


Only Kula is open. Čakor is still closed.



> Interestingly, one of the two roads is numbered M-9 on both sides of the border. Probably they kept Yugoslavian numbers.


No. In Kosovo officially N9 is used, in Montenegro the road number is R9. In Kosovo some prefixes are changed (M->N), although the numbering is from Yugoslavia indeed.


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## italystf

During the Cold War was it possible to cross the border between USSR and Finland or Norway?

I've seen this photo of the USSR-Norway border, but it looks like closed



Verso said:


> Norwegian-Soviet border in 1987.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]


Interestingly, it was the only border between USSR and a NATO country.
EDIT: there was also the USSR-Turkey border.


----------



## italystf

Palance said:


> Only Kula is open. Čakor is still closed.


I found that in an online forum, about Čakor pass:



> Hi,
> 
> I rode by bike in Septembre 2016, from Pec to Montenegro.
> There is a cement block just at the border ( after 3 km of unpaved street) I crossed this point without problem ( i think could be the same for out road motorbike)
> Paved road start again in this point, no border point, but one jeep with 3 policeman after 2 km. They checked my passport and they asked me my direction.
> Finally they were so kind to allowed me to continue towards Montenegro.
> One of those policeman was in the wood to find people from kosovo (i can imagine)
> Ciao





> Hi,
> 
> I crossed the Cakor pass from Kosovo to Montenegro in 2012, there was no border crossing. I still have a Kosovo entry stamp in my passport, and obviously no exit stamp. I want to enter Kosovo again. Any idea if I may get into any trouble? I can use an EU id card also, but I'm not sure if they don't have all the information in their computers anyway.
> 
> Cheers


http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/europe/border-kosovo-montenegro-cakor-pass-58004

So, apartently, even without an official border crossing they let people through? It may be the only border crossing in Europe like that.


----------



## Junkie

italystf said:


> So, apartently, even without an official border crossing they let people through? It may be the only border crossing in Europe like that.


Yes because Kosovo is now a separate country and Montenegro recognizes Kosovo as an independent state, border demarcation started years ago and it was finished only last year. So there is no legal pass there, but there are two old roads connecting both countries and that's why I was asking if it is legal to cross there.
Seems the things are premature there and it need long time to settle in a right way.


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## stickedy

You can cross the border at the road over Rozaje - https://goo.gl/maps/ZAY1sQkEYy72 - without problems.

The road through Rugova canyon is closed, there is no legal possibility of crossing there. However, the border is not guarded, so people are crossing there illegally.


----------



## TheMayor

stickedy said:


> You can cross the border at the road over Rozaje - https://goo.gl/maps/ZAY1sQkEYy72 - without problems.
> 
> The road through Rugova canyon is closed, there is no legal possibility of crossing there. However, the border is not guarded, so people are crossing there illegally.


I've crossed the border on the Rozaje - Pejë road last year. There are quite a few km downhill between the Montenegro and Kosovo border posts. Don't know the reason for that?


----------



## stickedy

That's a good question. The Montenegrin control point is very far away from the actual border. Maybe it was about the space or maybe about safety reasons. The checkpoint would have been very exposed when it would be closer to the border and it was build sometime around 1999, so safety concerns could be a point back then. But I don't know, it's a bit weired


----------



## Junkie

stickedy said:


> That's a good question. The Montenegrin control point is very far away from the actual border. Maybe it was about the space or maybe about safety reasons. The checkpoint would have been very exposed when it would be closer to the border and it was build sometime around 1999, so safety concerns could be a point back then. But I don't know, it's a bit weired


Most probably it is because there was not known demarcation line back before almost 20 years.... But most probably somehow, someone knew that Kosovo and Montenegro will get their independences.


----------



## OulaL

italystf said:


> During the Cold War was it possible to cross the border between USSR and Finland or Norway?


Finland, yes. There were organized tourist trips from both sides, and commercial transports as well.

For quite some time the Soviet Union was Finland's most important trade partner, after all.


----------



## OulaL

Junkie said:


> ^^
> Do you know if one can legally cross between Montenegro and Kosovo ?


Depends on who you ask. It may be an illegal entry to Serbia.


----------



## Junkie

OulaL said:


> Depends on who you ask. It may be an illegal entry to Serbia.


Kosovo is recognized by Albania, Montenegro and Macedonia from the bordering countries. On these countries the traffic is considered as international crossings and international rules (should) apply.
However it is weird why on the border between MNE and Kosovo there is no valid double checkpoint but only Montenegro is checking documents, while the other crossing is not operational.


----------



## italystf

OulaL said:


> Finland, yes. There were organized tourist trips from both sides, and commercial transports as well.
> 
> For quite some time the Soviet Union was Finland's most important trade partner, after all.


That means that Soviet citizens were allowed to travel to Finland? They could have easily defected that way.


----------



## Kpc21

I don't know how it was in the Soviet Union. But in Poland, those who really had reasons to defect (because e.g. they did something anti-communist in the past), rather weren't allowed to go, they wouldn't get a passport. For normal people, not involved in politics in any way (so having no reasons to flee - it was much better to live in Poland rather than to be an illegal immigrant somewhere abroad), it wasn't impossible to go abroad to the western countries. At least in some periods of time. Although, from what I know (I didn't live in those times), much bureaucracy was needed, including explaining the reasons of going there to the officials, and it was each time someone wanted to go to the west (the passports were issued only for the time of the trip and had to be returned immediately after the return).

Another problem was the financial issues - the Polish currency was worth almost nothing in the west (even though in Poland you could buy all the needed products and have a decent life for it; the problem was not the lack of money, which everyone had enough of, but the lack of products to buy), and the same must have been with the Soviet one.

I have once read a post of someone on one touristic forum, where he told the story when he went to Sweden for the first time in live - for an internship during his studies, which was in the communist times (which wasn't very popular, but it was possible - by the way, actually, you can do an internship in North Korea nowadays, I have recently seen such an offer from the IAESTE or AIESEC program, I am not sure which one). He took very much food with him for the first days before he gets his first wages. Even nowadays, living in Sweden is expensive for a Polish person. But then... it was extremely expensive.


----------



## stickedy

Junkie said:


> However it is weird why on the border between MNE and Kosovo there is no valid double checkpoint but only Montenegro is checking documents, while the other crossing is not operational.


How do you come to this conclusion? The border at Kula is a normal boder crossing point and the border in Rugova canyon is closed. There is no border crossing checkpoint in Montenegro also.

This bicycle driver just encountered a random border police patrol.


----------



## stickedy

Junkie said:


> Most probably it is because there was not known demarcation line back before almost 20 years.... But most probably somehow, someone knew that Kosovo and Montenegro will get their independences.


That's unlikely, the borders between the constituent republics were and are well known, there are just a few small disputes where some areas where registered in the wrong land registry, but overall there are no problems with the border lines in former Yugoslavia.


----------



## OulaL

italystf said:


> That means that Soviet citizens were allowed to travel to Finland? They could have easily defected that way.


Oh no, not everyone. They had to be trusted (party members, I assume). The Soviets needed a visa _to exit their own country_. However, they were many enough for such tours to be profitable.


----------



## italystf

stickedy said:


> That's unlikely, the borders between the constituent republics were and are well known, there are just a few small disputes where some areas where registered in the wrong land registry, but overall there are no problems with the border lines in former Yugoslavia.


There are also ongoing controversies about SLO-HR, HR-BIH and HR-SRB borders. Administrative borders of Yugoslavia were never properly established and no accurate maps from before 1991 exist. It wasn't much a problem back then (they were just administrative borders and the regime didn't want to stress their existence, as it promoted "pan-Yugoslavism" and opposed local nationalisms). Of course the problem became real after those countries declared their independence.

The SLO-HR border crossing at Sekovlje lies on the disputes sections of the border (Slovenia claims a narrow strip of land into Croatia). The border crossing functions normally, although on Slovenian documents is referred as "control checkpoint" (or something like that) and not "border crossing", as according to Slovenia it lies entirely inside Slovenia.


----------



## Junkie

stickedy said:


> How do you come to this conclusion? The border at Kula is a normal boder crossing point and the border in Rugova canyon is closed. There is no border crossing checkpoint in Montenegro also.
> 
> This bicycle driver just encountered a random border police patrol.


Yes you are right, but that was my point, Montenegro recognizes Kosovo and the border is demarcated but there is only one checkpoint or actually only one side is actively and legally controlling which is not according to the international rules.
And on the other pass there is no control booths at all, the road has been blocked with barriers.


----------



## Junkie

Why is the border lifted up here:
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.5434...Bu2OybuxryPxiqGkq6fw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es


----------



## alserrod

Junkie said:


> Why is the border lifted up here:
> https://www.google.es/maps/@42.5434...Bu2OybuxryPxiqGkq6fw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es


It is a 2011 picture and fence didn't had any longer use. If you go forward you will see current road.

Not far from there look at this roundabout
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.5491...nFr0X70fCP2Xzl-fTYXw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es

Ahead, the same building (Andorra, absolutely boundaring), Right, Envalira tolled tunnel. It was opened in 2002 without custom booths and... if you wanna go from Andorra mainland to that little village (and very big ski resort) you may cross the tunnel, enter in France for a while and again in Andorra (it is possible to do within Andorra using a service road but not opened for traffic normally).

This is, in 2011 fence was there but no officers at all.

Booths are here, inside French territory

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.5596...UihFdh28dGec-YDvdrrQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es

Both police cars are from Andorra with their flag and written "Custom" in Catalan.

If we go forward, an 2009 image points booths under construction and seems not to have many passport control (and let's remember you were free to cross the tunnel instead of entering the town of Pas de la Casa)

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.5596...6Ol2zwc9l3lorMJmi8Fw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es

But just glancing in google... custom controls are the same back to France than back to Spain










(someone told me that in France, from time to time you can go to "nothing to declare" and be stopped by police one km. later...).

It is like in airports but in a car you can carry a lot of smuggling goods. I watched a Discovery documentary about customs and Andorran ones appeared sometimes.

This is, booths are inside France, Looking in the infrastructure, Andorra barely looks who enters (and they can let you go without passport control in both countries despite it is a non-Schengen border)
But back to France, all cars opened and checked.

In Spain more or less same situation but passport booths are exactly in the border (and customs are after passport booths... which are almost empty too).


----------



## alserrod

Looking for former pictures... Andorran booths with Spain










Ahead a pannel saying in Catalan, "You are in Andorran lands, Welcome", and name of tourism association.

Nowadays glance this picture

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4353...a--Z6UwAGGF08xEwpHKg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es

Taken exactly in current booths. Right building is the same.
Pannel has dissapear but religious sculpture remains ahead in the left and with a new pannel, quite bigger. Just go through



This picture 










was taken in 1965.

First officers are Spanish, ahead an Andorran flag. Have not seen anything about these buildings

There are a lot of pictures about this little country that has taken a lot of nightmares because smuggling and doesn't have prime minister but recognises both to Urgel bishop and French president as both prime ministers for the country. They do not have army and, because mountains they have more relations with south rather than to north.

It is almost a circle 30 km corner to corner. Capital is 10 km from Spain, 20 from France (direct line) and receives people for working (barely dole) and for tourism from all the world.

By the way, they open 361 days per year. This friday, national day in Andorra is one out of those four days in the year when shops are closed.


----------



## Penn's Woods

volodaaaa said:


> Does the french language spoken in canada differ from one spoken in france?





CrazySerb said:


> Of course, its more archaic...sometimes, the French will make fun of Quebecois accents.


As far as I know, the standard French of France is still considered the standard for Quebec. So you'll hear (from different people and in different circumstances) everything from unintelligible* to French-French-with-a-slight-accent (on, say, a news broadcast).

* unintelligible for an American who's been learning French for 40 years but doesn't have many opportunities to speak it)

EDIT: We've gone off topic again. [hangs head in shame]


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ it is same language completely - just people have a different accent, some slang terms differ... same situation as English language in the US vs. UK (and of course lots of regional variation on either side)


----------



## arctic_carlos

alserrod said:


> There are a lot of pictures about this little country that has taken a lot of nightmares because smuggling and *doesn't have prime minister* but recognises both to Urgel bishop and French president as both prime ministers for the country. They do not have army and, because mountains they have more relations with south rather than to north.


Sorry, but that's not accurate: 

Andorra is a parliamentary democracy since the adoption of the 1993 Constitution and the prime minister/head of government (_cap de govern_), is elected by the parliament after each general election. The current prime minister is Mr. Antoni Martí.

On the other hand, Andorra doesn't have its own head of State. This role is played by two Co-princes (_coprínceps_), who are the Spanish Bishop of Urgell (based in La Seu d'Urgell, just 10 km from Andorra), and the President of France.

More information can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Andorra


----------



## Penn's Woods

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ it is same language completely - just people have a different accent, some slang terms differ... same situation as English language in the US vs. UK (and of course lots of regional variation on either side)


Except that if an English text is long enough, you'll come across British spellings that aren't used in the U.S. or vice versa, British spellings.... With Canada falling somewhere in between. In French, I can't think of anything in a text that would tell me its Québécois rather than "français de France" apart from terminology specific to Quebec ("cégep", "péquiste"....) ; spelling and grammar are identical.


----------



## Verso

Border between the Zones A and B of the Julian March in 1946 (so-called Morgan Line):









http://www.rtvslo.si/kultura/razstave/kako-so-ziveli-in-hrepeneli-med-dveletnim-obstojem-cone-a/431833 (photo: Božo Štajer)


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Border between the Zones A and B of the Free Territory of Trieste in 1946:


Interesting photo, I've never seen it before. It was probably Rabuiese/Skofje.
However the Free Territory of Trieste was created in 1947. In 1946 it was still the border between "US occupied zone" and "Yugoslav occupied zone". It was like the partition of Germany in 1945-49, or Austria in 1945-55.


----------



## Junkie

Yes and then, Tito made a deal so Trieste or the Zone A, became part of Italy... What I know is that in those years there was shouting in YU about that Trieste should be 'given back'.


----------



## italystf

Initially even Italian communists wanted Trieste to join the SFRY as its 7th federate republic.


----------



## Junkie

But that was after the war so the deal was not made yet. It took decades for that deal. What is interesting is that YU had free access to Trst port after the deal was signed by both sides.


----------



## italystf

Junkie said:


> But that was after the war so the deal was not made yet. It took decades for that deal. What is interesting is that YU had free access to Trst port after the deal was signed by both sides.


You mean the Osimo treaty? It basically didn't introduced many changes, it mostly made official a situation that had been ongoing de facto for 20 years (since London Memorandum).


----------



## Junkie

^^
That was the most obvious change in that treaty, that YU got free access to the port on the Italian territory. So it was like a corridor without stopping.


----------



## italystf

Trieste port is still a "free area" outside Italian custom/VAT area, since the Treaty of Paris (1947), ant that continued under Italian rule after 1954.
Freight can be freely moved and processed within the port area without any custom operation. There are custom checkpoints at entrances of the port.
https://www.google.it/maps/@45.6455...171.02647&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656

However, if freight were moved by road or rail between Yugoslavia and Trieste port across Italy they had to go through customs I think.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Interesting photo, I've never seen it before. It was probably Rabuiese/Skofje.
> However the Free Territory of Trieste was created in 1947. In 1946 it was still the border between "US occupied zone" and "Yugoslav occupied zone". It was like the partition of Germany in 1945-49, or Austria in 1945-55.


Oops, you're right, it's actually the Morgan Line in the Julian March (not necessarily close to Trieste at all).


----------



## volodaaaa

Does anybody have recent photos of Kosovo borders? I am just curious how it looks like.


----------



## cinxxx

^^Here are a few pics I did 3 weeks ago...



cinxxx said:


> *Kosovo and Albania (Qafë Morinë - Gjakovë)*
> 
> Border Crossing Qafa Morina - Gjakova by cinxxx, on Flickr
> 
> Border Crossing Qafa Morina - Gjakova by cinxxx, on Flickr
> 
> and back...
> 
> Border Crossing Qafa Morina - Gjkova by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## nick.english.dept




----------



## Junkie

volodaaaa said:


> Does anybody have recent photos of Kosovo borders? I am just curious how it looks like.


I was in Kosovo two months ago. I crossed the border with ID only and there were many tourists from Europe there... From my home the border is 20 minutes drive.

Between MKD and RKS there are currently two crossings operational. There is however third road connection that dates back 40 years and its blocked with barriers and its not operational.

This is Hani i Elezit

You can see the Albanian flag is also waving on every crossing.









https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=e...d=0ahUKEwi1xsfHg5PWAhVOkRQKHb6DC_wQoioIgwEwDg 

On the crossings with MKD only Kosovo is controlling the border there are no more UN and other troops there they departed few years ago... But on the border with Serbia which is not recognized the situation is very different.


----------



## Penn's Woods

nenea_hartia said:


> Here are some pictures I took today at one of the world's ...
> 
> Here is the town centre. We are still in Belgium, but if you pass the first building on the right side of the street, then you'll be in the Netherlands:




Looks pretty busy. Do people come there just to experience this strangeness (or legal pot)?


----------



## Penn's Woods

nenea_hartia said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Imagine if they were still using two currencies.


----------



## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> Why is it forbidden to take pics?


The last time I went to Canada, I took a smartphone pic or two while I was waiting, just to post on Facebook or whatever. (I was several cars back.) The guy at the booth had me pull aside into the office for further questioning. It was just along the lines of "who are you meeting?" "what are you doing here?" that sort of thing, and they let me go after a few minutes, but it's the only time that's happened to me and I've wondered since whether it was because of the pics. (Although they didn't actually say so, and they didn't answer when I asked - non-confrontationally "I'm just curious; this is the only time this has ever happened to me..." - why I'd been pulled over.

By the way, the pics in question are on a phone that crashed about a month ago. So I can't post them here.


----------



## OulaL

parcdesprinces said:


> ^^ There are no check points at the Franco-Monegasque border since Monaco is a Schengen Area member (actually it is considered as part of France under the Schengen agreements), so, no, you don't have to provide papers, etc....


In addition to this: the port of Monaco actually is an outer border of the Schengen area, and there are border controls there, carried out by _French_ authorities :nuts:


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> In addition to this: the port of Monaco actually is an outer border of the Schengen area, and there are border controls there, carried out by _French_ authorities :nuts:


The Monaco being basically a French special territory is quite evident. There is a quite long list of bilateral treaties to set up things:

http://en.gouv.mc/Policy-Practice/M...eements/Themes/Bilateral-treaties-with-France


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> Imagine if they were still using two currencies.


Until 2002 they used two different currencies.

From Luxembourg it is known that 40km away in any direction, four different currencies!!


----------



## alserrod

OulaL said:


> In addition to this: the port of Monaco actually is an outer border of the Schengen area, and there are border controls there, carried out by _French_ authorities :nuts:





MattiG said:


> The Monaco being basically a French special territory is quite evident. There is a quite long list of bilateral treaties to set up things:
> 
> http://en.gouv.mc/Policy-Practice/M...eements/Themes/Bilateral-treaties-with-France




Like in Liechtenstein where they do not have customs with Switzerland and border pass with Austria is kept by Swiss police (and four flags in the border: EU, Austria, Liechtenstein and Switzerland)



One hint about Monaco. Should they do not have a new prince, they will join France. This will not happen in Andorra.


----------



## parcdesprinces

alserrod said:


> One hint about Monaco. Should they do not have a new prince, they will join France.


Actually this rule was abolished few years ago (under the Chirac presidency if I remember well), along with the rule which stated that their Prime Minister (aka _"Ministre d'État"_) must be French (today he can be either Monegasque or French, but still has to be appointed with the approval of the French State though).


----------



## italystf

Every few months some photos of either Baarle or Derby Line pop up here.


----------



## nenea_hartia

Penn's Woods said:


> Looks pretty busy. Do people come there just to experience this strangeness (or legal pot)?


To be honest, I couldn't see any tourist except for me, a young Polish couple and a group of 20-30 Dutch pensioners. And most probably a gang of bikers looking like they didn't belong (you can see their bikes in front of the Dutch town hall). 
I could be wrong though, but I think the real reason why people went out to drink a beer was the first warm and sunny day after almost three weeks of rain, storms and low temperatures throughout most of Benelux.


----------



## Penn's Woods

italystf said:


> Every few months some photos of either Baarle or Derby Line pop up here.


I've been reasonably close to Baarle twice, but never actually gone to see it....


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ same here

I haven't even gone into Derby Line despite passing the main motorway crossing probably a dozen times...


----------



## LMB

alserrod said:


> Until 2002 they used two different currencies.
> 
> From Luxembourg it is known that 40km away in any direction, four different currencies!!


Three. Belgian and Luxembourgian franc were pegged 1 to 1, and if I remember correctly, both accepted in both countries.


----------



## MattiG

parcdesprinces said:


> Actually this rule was abolished few years ago (under the Chirac presidency if I remember well), along with the rule which stated that their Prime Minister (aka _"Ministre d'État"_) must be French (today he can be either Monegasque or French, but still has to be appointed with the approval of the French State though).


Yes and no. The treaty of 2002 states that only born members of Grimaldi may wear the crown, but Monaco can decide upon the order of succession. Thus, there is a wider choice than earlier.


----------



## Penn's Woods

LMB said:


> Three. Belgian and Luxembourgian franc were pegged 1 to 1, and if I remember correctly, both accepted in both countries.


I tried to spend a Luxembourg note in Brussels in 1985 (I'd passed through Luxembourg a few days earlier). It wasn't accepted.


----------



## Penn's Woods

MattiG said:


> Yes and no. The treaty of 2002 states that only born members of Grimaldi may wear the crown, but Monaco can decide upon the order of succession. Thus, there is a wider choice than earlier.


Well, now that Albert's married and having kids, they're all right for a while, right? (But I believe even Princess Caroline's children, who aren't Grimaldis, strictly speaking, are in the line of succession.)


----------



## Suburbanist

Palance said:


> The ferry Harwich - Hoek van Holland docks in Hoek van Holland, next to te train station (closed for now, it wil be a metro station with a line to Rotterdam) and the small city center of Hoek van Holland.


Hoek van Holland is part of the municipality of Rotterdam, technically speaking. 

IJmuiden is its own municipality.


----------



## parcdesprinces

MattiG said:


> *Yes and no. *The treaty of 2002 states that only born members of Grimaldi may wear the crown, but Monaco can decide upon the order of succession. Thus, there is a wider choice than earlier.


Well, more yes than no, since with this new rule/treaty Monaco will hardly be "short of" a potential new Prince, if I may say so .



Penn's Woods said:


> Well, now that Albert's married and having kids, they're all right for a while, right? (But I believe even Princess Caroline's children, who aren't Grimaldis, strictly speaking, are in the line of succession.)


Indeed! That's BTW what I mean in my sentence above.


----------



## Junkie

So, Monaco and Andorra are very different. If you enter Spain you can go to Monaco but not to Andorra without checks... Also as I've learnt sometimes they let you in without check. What about customs, how is regulated in the ports?


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ BTW, regarding the Franco-Andorran border (I've been there numerous times), I have never ever seen any customs control before entering Andorra.... While the opposite (from Andorra back to France) is not really the same, because of the limited quantities of goods (cigarettes and alcohol more precisely) you're allowed to import to France from Andorra. 
That said, despite there is a customs office over there, French customs controls/checks on the French soil are done by what we call the "Douane volante" (customs mobile units) since a while, and they are allowed to control/check vehicles, goods, people's identity etc, everywhere inside the French territory + Monaco.


----------



## haddockman

Bosnia still uses the Mark. 

The 4th Bulgarian Lev was effectively the Mark as they were pegged 1:1.


----------



## Alex_ZR

parcdesprinces said:


> Did Kosovo existed back then? I mean it was part or Serbia/Yugoslavia, wasn't it?
> (oh...and it still is according to numerous countries at the UN)
> 
> 
> :|


UNMIK administration introduced German mark as currency in Kosovo in 1999. Yugoslav/Serbian dinar continued to be used in Serbian majority northern part of Kosovo.



haddockman said:


> Bosnia still uses the Mark.
> 
> The 4th Bulgarian Lev was effectively the Mark as they were pegged 1:1.


Bosnian marka was pegged to German mark at 1:1, which continued to be 1 EUR=1.95 BAM.


----------



## italystf

Kosovo again... please don't create the situation that will force mods to close this thread again.


----------



## alserrod

was me chatting about currencies and borders. Next time I will use Ecuador and dollar, for instance.
Sorry


----------



## Junkie

alserrod said:


> Andorra used Franc and Peseta despite no agreement without French or Spanish bank
> 
> BTW, maybe unique country with two official currencies. Usually most of prices and accountability in pesetas but exchange rate was free.
> 
> they decided to use euro only one year before peseta and franc were to dissapear.
> 
> AFAIK, Kosovo used Marc, didn't they?


I didn't know that Andorra has two national currencies. That's a big LOL 

I want to ask about those of you who cross regularly borders, are there booths for changing currencies?

For example I once saw at the entrance in Hungary booths for changing national currencies, but they use also Serbian dinar, Euro and Dollars...


----------



## haddockman

I found that I could not use HUF when going from RO to H, they insisted on EURO. HUF or RON would not be accepted by those selling vignettes.


----------



## italystf

haddockman said:


> I found that I could not use HUF when going from RO to H, they insisted on EURO. HUF or RON would not be accepted by those selling vignettes.


That's very strange, since euro is not legal tender neither in Hungary nor in Romania.
About countries that use more than one currency, there are Cuba and Zimbabwe.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Junkie said:


> I didn't know that Andorra has two national currencies. That's a big LOL
> 
> I want to ask about those of you who cross regularly borders, are there booths for changing currencies?
> 
> For example I once saw at the entrance in Hungary booths for changing national currencies, but they use also Serbian dinar, Euro and Dollars...


On a trip to Canada in 1990, I exchanged my remaining U.S. cash at an exchange office (Thomas Cook or Deak Perera) in Buffalo, New York, in the morning, then got cash from an ATM in Toronto that afternoon. The rate was much better at the ATM, so ever since then I've relied on ATMs when I'm abroad.


----------



## Kpc21

italystf said:


> About countries that use more than one currency, there are Cuba and Zimbabwe.


But are we talking about official usage of two currencies, or using a foreign one because the local one is unusable due to hyperinflation?

Some people in Poland, going abroad frequently or for a longer time, or often doing shopping abroad (e.g. on AliExpress), just open an extra account in foreign currency (EUR, USD) in a Polish bank. And then exchange the money online. Which is yet cheaper than doing it in banks, exchange offices or by using their debit/credit cards abroad.

I have one in EUR because I was for a year in Germany. The account costs me nothing, the only cost is, if I remember well, 5 EUR yearly for the debit card (although actually, as I practically don't use this account now, I could suspend the card and then pay absolutely nothing). Withdrawals from all the ATMs in EU (not sure if in the world) are without commission.


----------



## bogdymol

haddockman said:


> I found that I could not use HUF when going from RO to H, they insisted on EURO. HUF or RON would not be accepted by those selling vignettes.


I am well aware of this. It's a typical eastern scam so that you pay more for the vignette. It helps them that nobody ever checks these businesess.

The solution is to either buy the vignette from a Hungarian petrol station (petrol stations abroad like in Romania or Austria charge a comission), or to buy it online from the official website (other websites charge you comission).


----------



## Junkie

Penn's Woods said:


> On a trip to Canada in 1990, I exchanged my remaining U.S. cash at an exchange office (Thomas Cook or Deak Perera) in Buffalo, New York, in the morning, then got cash from an ATM in Toronto that afternoon. The rate was much better at the ATM, so ever since then I've relied on ATMs when I'm abroad.


In Europe generally situation with ATM's is very complex because of many countries and different policies. I don't know much about west Europe BUT:
For example in my country which is relatively tiny by its size there are only a few banks, and there are two of them who have chains around Europe. So If I go to different country in the region, I get to use their ATM's with their local bank and I got no commission. 
For example it happened to me many times to withdraw cash from different local ATM and the commission was sky high when I got back home. So I use only on site terminals but almost no ATM's when I go abroad.

About the borders, it is really tough sometimes when you dont have local currency and there are many countries that dont use Euro. There are really many of them so on the border they do scam with low rates or there is no possibility to change.

For petrol after the border you can use credit card, but for some snack or so its maybe better to pay in cash.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^That's true. You do need to take fees into account these days.


----------



## Junkie

About Euros now, they are circulating almost everywhere. Here they are circulating and it is common to pay in Euros for many things or when the seller don't give any bills... It is really funny one time when I was in Bulgaria I haven't any BGN and I used 10 cents in automats for transportation tickets :lol:


----------



## alserrod

Junkie said:


> I didn't know that Andorra has two national currencies. That's a big LOL


I link a wikipedia web in Spanish since translation??? into English is about another subject

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moneda_andorrana

They say that both Franc and Peseta were used (they do not say "legal") in Andorra but all official budgets were in Pesetas.

First time I was in Andorra was before euro and in the capital (10 km valleydown to Spain and 25 summit-up to France) was in Pesetas except one or two shops with both currencies written.

But Franc was accepted as same as Peseta with no problems. Any shop had to provide you either price in Francs or Pesetas with no charge and banks will accept them (and citizens could have two accounts to avoid exchange rates down or up, one account in Pesetas and another one in Francs in the same bank).

For postal service, either French and Spanish give service to the whole country and it is quite common to see both mailboxes together. Depending of service (French stamp or Spanish stamp) they have to introduce letter in one or another mailbox.

Andorran letters are considered "national mail" even for French and for Spanish post service. 
This means:
- A letter to Spain, Spanish service
- A letter to France, French service
- A national letter, Spanish service (stamp is cheaper than French one and service is the same)
- A letter to another country... I would say that Spanish one but had to compare country per country.

There was a while that national letters in France were more expensive than international letters within EU in Spain, thus everyone used Spanish service... even to write to France.




> I want to ask about those of you who cross regularly borders, are there booths for changing currencies?
> 
> For example I once saw at the entrance in Hungary booths for changing national currencies, but they use also Serbian dinar, Euro and Dollars...




Yes. One country, one currency.

I remember in main touristic resorts to see several exchange booths. They said commision percentage and buying/selling prices.

This is, 1 euro = 1,178 US dollar and could say 
Buy: 1,17
Sell: 1,185
(or more expensive)

Booths were only in main touristic areas (and be sure that just after a border, as many as you need). You could see areas without these kind of booths but out of those areas, maybe you will not.

In any case, banks will buy you any currency (this is, you arrived with another currency and will change in local currency) but wasn't so easy to find currencies.
But banks open 8 to 14 monday to friday only.

Upper and luxurious hotels usually change currency too... but best rate is given by banks.



In the bank where my family operate they used not to have foreing currencies. They had to ask to headquarter. Maybe you were lucky and had them but it was a so messy-blessy with a lot of currencies that they preferred not to have and book as much money you wanted to provide you next day. Should you were hurry, headquarter in city centre had any currency.

I had a relative who work in a small bank in a village. Every six months he received a list of banknotes he could accept. In case someone was expired they pointed him in the list and in case of fake notes, they point in an image where to check. And it was a 1.200 people village and few times (but sometimes) he had to change currencies (no tourism around at all)


But yeah... one country, one currency. I remember going to Portugal. Easy with Escudos (only one currency) but later, going to France, UK, Italy and so on. I remember being in the north of Italy and enter for one day in Austria. We changed Schillings and anything we bought... more expensive because exchange rates for not much money.
That was reason we kept Francs for one year to another and usually coming back we used to change currencies in France to Francs. We will "block" that money until next summer but will save one exchange fee.


Today you can find some booths but not often and... you can go from Portugal to Greece (with a ferry) or so on with the same currency. It is a fact that I think people do not worry as much as it was (and obviously each time you changed, messy-blessy to understank price of choses)


I remember being in Dubrovnik and euro was accepted anywhere (and sometimes dollar) but in my country, it is a long time I do not see any other currency accepted.

Before euro I remember being in a queue in France and... one person wanted to pay in cash with dollars. He had forgotten to change. People was amazed... because in France... Francs and only Francs, as easy as that. He had a Visa and payed with it (thanks it was Visa because AE is not quite introduced in Europe)


----------



## Kpc21

When I was in Germany, I always used Polish coins for shopping carts so as not to waste those from my wallet, to have what to pay with for the shopping.

Same I did for some time in Poland - using Euro coins for the shopping carts.

How does it work in the countries where even 1 unit of their currency is a note (e.g. Romania, where the biggest coin is 0.50 RON)? Do you have only coin-less shopping carts or do your carts just accept 0.50 RON (or even smaller) coins?

Because in Poland, it's typically 1 PLN and 2 PLN what the carts accept, and it's approximately so that 1 PLN = 1 RON.


----------



## italystf

^^You can use anything for a shopping cart, from a carwash token to a plastic disc (there are some with the brand of the supermarket).
I once found an abandoned cart near a supermarket (in Italy), I took it to its place (hoping to get 0.50€, 1€ or 2€), but there was a Romanian coin inside. As long the diameter is right, any round thing works.
In Italy we usually use 0.50€, 1€ or 2€ (and 500 lire until 2002).


----------



## Corvinus

Swiss parking meters often accept Euro coins. The applied exchange rate varies from location to location. Sometimes it is converted _at par_, which is a bad deal for motorists. In Rapperswil, however, I have seen an applied rate of 1.40 CHF/EUR, obviously a remainder back from when the euro averaged 1.50 francs.


----------



## alserrod

italystf said:


> That's very strange, since euro is not legal tender neither in Hungary nor in Romania.
> About countries that use more than one currency, there are Cuba and Zimbabwe.


About Cuba I found this blog with a lot of interesting information

https://viajes.chavetas.es/guia/cuba/cambio-de-moneda-en-cuba/

Written in Spanish, I will make a short translation and ask for any detail. Will google for it if possible.


Nowadays there are TWO currencies: Cuban Peso (peso cubano CUP) and Converted Cuban Peso (Peso cubano convertible CUC)


In order of policy in last years they are going to join both currencies.

As a history, after independance, they used even Spanish Pesetas for several years, US dollars and also Gold French Francs but in four years they created Peso Cubano, as well as US dollar remained in use in the island.

After revolution Dollar was forbidden (AFAIK, it is forbidden to have any foreing currency for a local citizen. Do not take a taxi and try to pay in dollars, euros or so on because they CANNOT accept it... and fine can be important for them)


This is, local population will use only CUP even you can decide to use CUP or CUC. You will not have problems with CUP. But for instance (and it is not a joke), there are "buses for foreing people". Since they have a great tourism industry, they give better services for foreing. Buses for tourists will be better but will only accept CUP (which can be taken after changing foreing currencies... all money accepted in CUP by them must go to banks)

Blog is quite old... they say that if you pay with a credit cards they are accepted but price will be changed to US dollars, will have a 3% fee (and later your bank could make you pay exchange rates). And... any credit card from US banks were blocked in the island!!!! (blog said it was expected to accept in 2015... this is, two years ago but I do not know).

And... CUP??? (currency for local citizens). As a foreing, you can buy them and use them or just ask for them as a souvenir.



For exchange:

- Best exchange rate in banks

- Official agency CADECA (CAsa DE CAmbio, exchange house) is a little more expensive but blog says that in La Habana airport there are two ones and choose first one with less queue for first CUP.

- Hotels: They can apply a 3 to 6% commision fee and not regulation. Luxurious hotels can be more expensive.

To change any currency into CUP or CUC you need to provide your passport (I guess to check you are not Cuban)



Practice information

- Do not travel to Cuba with US dollars. They have a 10% extra fee. Should you come from US they reccommend you to change before travelling US dollars to euro, to Canadian dollars, UK pounds or whatever... but avoid that 10% fee

- Change always in banks or CADECAs (or in hotels). Despite it is illegal to change in other places they can offer you.... and fake!!!! CUP instead CUC. Are you able to recognise them? (sometimes it is an image and the text written in Spanish only!!!!)

- Change all CUP before leaving Cuba. They will not be changed in any other country (except you wanna some coins or notes as a souvenir)

- use a calculator, specially if you have CUC and CUP.

- and... do not forget to have 25 CUC before leaving as a local tax for leaving the country...





so..... two currencies and strongly recommended to check for more info prior to travel to Cuba!!!!


----------



## alserrod

Kpc21 said:


> When I was in Germany, I always used Polish coins for shopping carts so as not to waste those from my wallet, to have what to pay with for the shopping.
> 
> Same I did for some time in Poland - using Euro coins for the shopping carts.
> 
> How does it work in the countries where even 1 unit of their currency is a note (e.g. Romania, where the biggest coin is 0.50 RON)? Do you have only coin-less shopping carts or do your carts just accept 0.50 RON (or even smaller) coins?
> 
> Because in Poland, it's typically 1 PLN and 2 PLN what the carts accept, and it's approximately so that 1 PLN = 1 RON.




When euro started, there were two countries who "won" to make it simple: Germany and Portugal.

Why??????


More or less....

1 euro = 2 marks

1 euro = 200 escudos


easy to calculate exchange first years until everyone were used to have only euro in mind.

I remember 1 euro = 166, 386 pesetas (thus 1.000 pesetas = 6 euro..... 6,01 indeed, to be faster), not so easy as in Portugal or Germany, but as said, they will take exchange rates for December 31st 1998, whatever they would be.


I remember, in those years being every two month to France and having two wallets "Spanish wallet and French wallet"

* Spanish wallet
- Spanish ID card
- Spanish bank cards
- student, youth and so on cards
- Pesetas
- mobile chip for a Spanish phone company

* French wallet
same but French residence admission, French bank card, all cards related to French university, cinemas, youth discounts and so on, Francs and a mobile chip for a French company. I have the same mobile phone and change chip in the border

Since this June.... we have roaming and I wonder how many of those documents will be down nowadays!!!!


----------



## Junkie

I can say about Euros here in my region. When you drive a car and pass thru Serbia, Macedonia you can pay with Euro coins and credit card on the tools. Now just recently in my country they introduced paying with credit card  
So you dont need to stop at the border for some scam fees to change in local currencies. Tourists that go to vacation and pass here can bring euro coins. BUT the pegging to local currency is not the same so there is a still small scam although this is state regulated, so the thing is tourists pay some fee plus because the euro pay tool price is pegged to the local and not otherwise.
Now for petrol you cant pay in Euro... Dollar is almost never used and never accepted.


----------



## alserrod

One question.... do they set price in euro in a credit card machine???????

This is.... some banks can offer you an account in a different currency. It is not often but I use a bank that offers account in USD, CHF and JPY. But it is electronic money only. This is... you make exchange, keep it (maybe euro is down or upper) and exchange again. They will not give you a credit card to pay in those currencies.

This is, all cards are in euro. If you go to a country where currency is euro, paying is fee... but for other currencies they will have fees.

In this case it is important to know if a bank account can "receive" via payments money with credit card in euro. Owner will have an account in euro and will decide how to deal with them


Once I saw a French credit card system 5 km away from the border. It was a petrol station and I was the only car with a national car plate inside. All people were invited to pay even in cash or with a French credit card system. It was the same price for customer but they would join all data and send data even by internet. Therefore, they should had to have an account in the nearest French village but will save a great deal of commisions (and bank transfers are free within EU even if different currency)

P.S. When I went to pay I remembered staff to provide me a Spanish card system.... (or they will pay a "fine" to forget it!!)


----------



## Kpc21

alserrod said:


> This is.... some banks can offer you an account in a different currency. It is not often but I use a bank that offers account in USD, CHF and JPY. But it is electronic money only. This is... you make exchange, keep it (maybe euro is down or upper) and exchange again. They will not give you a credit card to pay in those currencies.


As I wrote in my previous post, you can do it in Poland too, and you can get a debit card without any problem. I am not sure about a credit one, but a Polish debit card (which is typically Master Card or Visa) will work without any problems practically in the whole EU, except for the points where they accept only the local inventions, like the German "EC" cards. In Germany it's treated just as a credit card (as they don't know any debit cards other than those their "EC", which are Maestro simultaneously).

Actually, some banks offer even multi-currency debit cards, which detect in which currency the payment is made and either your account in PLN or in foreign currency is charged.

The only thing you may have difficulty with is withdrawing the money in a foreign currency while you are in Poland. Especially if the account is in a bank focused on online service rather than on physical offices in the street. The ATMs in Poland withdraw PLN only. Rarely they withdraw also euro, but then the amount of money is converted from euro to PLN and than back to euro, so it makes no sense.

Concerning the money exchange, in Poland it's much more popular to use separate exchange offices (called "kantor" - a word cognate to "counter") rather than banks for money exchange. They normally offer better exchange rates. You have an exchange office in each shopping mall, and also in city centers and at the borders.

But, for example, while going to Bulgaria I was warned that there is a branch of exchange offices there which is cheating on the exchange rate and to use banks for money exchange in Bulgaria, because it's much safer.

Trying to pay in euro in Poland rather won't be a good idea. Big supermarket chains have information next to cash desks that they accept euro (but the change is given in PLN), but at all other points it rather won't be possible to pay in euro.


----------



## volodaaaa

Kpc21 said:


> As I wrote in my previous post, you can do it in Poland too, and you can get a debit card without any problem. I am not sure about a credit one, but a Polish debit card (which is typically Master Card or Visa) will work without any problems practically in the whole EU, except for the points where they accept only the local inventions, like the German "EC" cards. In Germany it's treated just as a credit card (as they don't know any debit cards other than those their "EC", which are Maestro simultaneously).
> 
> Actually, some banks offer even multi-currency debit cards, which detect in which currency the payment is made and either your account in PLN or in foreign currency is charged.
> 
> The only thing you may have difficulty with is withdrawing the money in a foreign currency while you are in Poland. Especially if the account is in a bank focused on online service rather than on physical offices in the street. The ATMs in Poland withdraw PLN only. Rarely they withdraw also euro, but then the amount of money is converted from euro to PLN and than back to euro, so it makes no sense.
> 
> Concerning the money exchange, in Poland it's much more popular to use separate exchange offices (called "kantor" - a word cognate to "counter") rather than banks for money exchange. They normally offer better exchange rates. You have an exchange office in each shopping mall, and also in city centers and at the borders.
> 
> *But, for example, while going to Bulgaria I was warned that there is a branch of exchange offices there which is cheating on the exchange rate and to use banks for money exchange in Bulgaria, because it's much safer.*
> 
> Trying to pay in euro in Poland rather won't be a good idea. Big supermarket chains have information next to cash desks that they accept euro (but the change is given in PLN), but at all other points it rather won't be possible to pay in euro.


True. When I passed there from Greece this year, I intended to buy a vignette on a border crossing. Some border crossings in Bulgaria have the additional booths so that you may pay directly from the car as a drive-in: I assume these booths are official as the lady behind the desk on my way to Greece wore a blouse with some logo with the Bulgarian CoA - the official price for a vignette is 8 € this year . Anyway, no booth were on my way back, just some kiosks with suspicious vendors. I was in rush so I dropped by and bought the vignette - it costed 10 €.


----------



## CSerpent

I remember this scam... Arrived at the CH border near Karlsruhe and the vignette was CHF20 or €20... I had Euros. :bleep:


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## ChrisZwolle

That must've been a giant scam. There is no Swiss border anywhere near Karlsruhe and the vignette is 40 CHF


----------



## CSerpent

LOL... wasn't looking at the map, just had been to Karlsruhe and continued on to CH. This was around 2004. Weil-am-Rhine.


----------



## jdb.2

Welcome to Belgium...
https://goo.gl/maps/nQSPt2MmiQ12
Typical Belgian border crossing where you are greeted with these signs following each other on a short interval:
- "België" with European flag
- Nationwide speed limits sign
- Nationwide truck overtaking probibition during rain sign
- "Welcome to the province of Antwerp" sign
- Vlaanderen with Flemish vlag, with redundant small "provincie Antwerpen" sign

And this picture is from 2009, before the introduction of truck toll. Now there is an additional sign for that as well.

What a contrast when you look in the other direction.


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## BlackC

jdb.2 said:


> Welcome to Belgium...
> https://goo.gl/maps/nQSPt2MmiQ12
> Typical Belgian border crossing where you are greeted with these signs following each other on a short interval:
> - "België" with European flag
> - Nationwide speed limits sign
> - Nationwide truck overtaking probibition during rain sign
> - "Welcome to the province of Antwerp" sign
> - Vlaanderen with Flemish vlag, with redundant small "provincie Antwerpen" sign
> 
> And this picture is from 2009, before the introduction of truck toll. Now there is an additional sign for that as well.
> 
> What a contrast when you look in the other direction.


Signage kn Belgium is also quite ugly compared with Dutch ones. The problem is, that belgium consists of 2 smaller countries in it, with each its own signage and rules... Hence the first belgian sign as a federal sign, then you have the Flemish sign als part of flanders, followed by another sign for the province. These signs show he political and regional layers of Belgium perfectly lol...


----------



## alserrod

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.7957...-jlBMXm3H2p3zt8b_gCg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es




Welcome to Spain, current N-330a Somport summit (St.James' pilgrim path). Border atop, booths not removed but without use neither any control.

In the middle of the border, "Custom and Police cooperation centre" in French and Spanish despite it is just that building and close!! (when border operating they were only booths for both sides).

In the booths but looking to France, name of summit and 1609m as an official sign

Just after booths, "Spain" and EU flag
10m ahead "Candanchu" in the right side. It would be N-330b or so... Until late 90ish road was in that direction.

30m later, Jaca, Canfranc ahead, Astun (ski resort) in the left. Old sign because it says N-330 and it is N-330a (N-330 is through tunnel) and E-7 is also there too.
You came from France and Zaragoza (in French) was pointed everywhere, sometimes Huesca too... you arrive to Spain and... they point Jaca only. Just to confuse??? (should you turn Astun, it is 2 km and must back again, should you enter in Candanchu, arrive to N-330a later... no problem in a valley where it is just down... but strongly weird)

- In the middle of Astun cross, some mettres later, "Astun" with tiny letters

- Just later, general sign about speeds allowed in Spain

- Later, overpass allowed, milestone of N-330 km 675 and E7, and later overpass not allowed

- 8% sign to advice you

- Brake lane in 1 km sign (should you are in a truck and have problems with brakes, you can enter there and will be stopped by land and stones avoiding accidents)... and overpass allowed again

- Recommended driving to 60
- Overpass forbidden

- Overpass allowed

- Region of Aragon, Province of Huesca



Welcome to France

- Border, same text in the middle
- in the right, start of Somport-Canfranc-Bedous SNCF line by bus with schedules
- No allowed to go in the parking located in the right
- Standard speed sign
- In the same one, a sign saying forbidden to drive from 8 to 12 due to a strongly well known cycling tour (not allowed in Spain also, btw). Picture and sign is from 2012
- 5 m later, Info Traffic with FM to heard for traffic in the area (no much radio indeed in the Pyrenees)
- Sign of national park and regulations
- Forbidden to trucks over 3,5tons or dangerous except if local traffic (reaching there I wonder how to make an U-turn)
- Welcome to the departement and their slogan

and nothing else... but all in .... maybe 30 m??????


next sign will be an old mile-STONE 




*Who wins?*





(forgot to say that France has not standard sign that you entered in France... but you entered in the departement and in the national park and so on) and in the left there is a little restaurant with a 15 euro menu and can see dishes from the road


----------



## jdb.2

BlackC said:


> Signage kn Belgium is also quite ugly compared with Dutch ones. The problem is, that belgium consists of 2 smaller countries in it, with each its own signage and rules... Hence the first belgian sign as a federal sign, then you have the Flemish sign als part of flanders, followed by another sign for the province. These signs show he political and regional layers of Belgium perfectly lol...


If you look at the other side, the Netherlands also has signs for speed limit, "Welkom in Nederland", "Welkom in Brabant". They are just spaced further away.

The only critical information after a border crossing is the speed limit and truck overtaking limit sign, the other signs can be places further away, instead of cluttering the important information.


Province of Antwerp sign is redundant, it is combined with the "Vlaanderen" sign.


----------



## Proof Sheet

jdb.2 said:


> Welcome to Belgium...
> https://goo.gl/maps/nQSPt2MmiQ12
> Typical Belgian border crossing where you are greeted with these signs following each other on a short interval:
> - "België" with European flag
> - Nationwide speed limits sign
> - Nationwide truck overtaking probibition during rain sign
> - "Welcome to the province of Antwerp" sign
> - Vlaanderen with Flemish vlag, with redundant small "provincie Antwerpen" sign
> 
> And this picture is from 2009, before the introduction of truck toll. Now there is an additional sign for that as well.
> 
> What a contrast when you look in the other direction.


Check out the series of signs when you enter Ontario from Quebec on Autoroute 40/Highway 417

https://goo.gl/maps/Aa3Q6TLDNNC2

They start here and due to the fact that the signs are in english and french there are a lot of signs. In the other direction english isn't on the signs.


----------



## Kpc21

ChrisZwolle said:


> That must've been a giant scam. There is no Swiss border anywhere near Karlsruhe and the vignette is 40 CHF


The nearest one to Karlsruhe is in Basel.


----------



## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> ....
> That was reason we kept Francs for one year to another and usually coming back we used to change currencies in France to Francs. We will "block" that money until next summer but will save one exchange fee.
> ....


I have two little Ziploc bags in the drawer I keep my passport in. One contains nearly $50 in Canadian cash (I was surprised, when I looked at it last week because I was considering going to Niagara Falls, that it was so much); the other contains some euro coins. (That one, I haven't looked at lately, so I have no idea about the amount.) I just slip it into my bag when I'm going to leave the country. This way I'm not worrying about changing money back (of course, it wouldn't make sense for a place I may never be again), and have at least some money on hand the next time I'm there.


----------



## Junkie

alserrod said:


> One question.... do they set price in euro in a credit card machine???????


This is another scam I guess. Many tourists are caught in scams here because of this, they may set the price in local currency and the rate would be higher that the equivalent to euros.
Also sometimes it is common for tool paying to return to you local currency if you dont provide the right coin. 
About vignettes this happened to me in Bulgaria after the border I didn't had BGN's so I provided Euros and said they had no change so they caught you alive 2 Euros bonus


----------



## Penn's Woods

Kpc21 said:


> When I was in Germany, I always used Polish coins for shopping carts so as not to waste those from my wallet, to have what to pay with for the shopping.
> 
> Same I did for some time in Poland - using Euro coins for the shopping carts.
> 
> How does it work in the countries where even 1 unit of their currency is a note (e.g. Romania, where the biggest coin is 0.50 RON)? Do you have only coin-less shopping carts or do your carts just accept 0.50 RON (or even smaller) coins?
> 
> Because in Poland, it's typically 1 PLN and 2 PLN what the carts accept, and it's approximately so that 1 PLN = 1 RON.


Wait, paying for shopping carts?


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## italystf

Penn's Woods said:


> Wait, paying for shopping carts?


No, we don't pay anything for them. We get the coin (or coin-sized token) back when we put the used cart back in its place. In that way people don't let carts all over the parking lot.


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## Penn's Woods

Ah. Most places I shop you leave the cart near the car (there are even places in the parking lot that you're meant to drop them off) and some employee of the store rounds them up. Or of course the next customer can take one and use it.

This sort of thing:
http://www.nationalcart.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/applications_cart_corral.jpg


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## italystf

Penn's Woods said:


> Ah. Most places I shop you leave the cart near the car (there are even places in the parking lot that you're meant to drop them off) and some employee of the store rounds them up. Or of course the next customer can take one and use it.


I've never seen anything like that. Here it's normal to put it back after having unloaded it in your car.


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## Kpc21

In big supermarkets, which we call hypermarkets - like Auchan, Tesco, Carrefour, Leclerc, Real (Tesco and Carrefour happen to be also in smaller versions) we also have such places on the parking lot.

But still you must insert a coin and you get it back when you leave your cart in the proper place - so that all the carts are connected with each other.

This is how it works:




























You insert a coin, the chain connecting the cart with the next one is released.

In Poland I haven't heard about using tokens for them. Normally you can insert 1 PLN or 2 PLN coin. Or 0,50 EUR, I'm not sure if 1 EUR also works.

I am not sure about other European countries, but in Poland we normally distinguish supermarkets and hypermarkets. Supermarkets are stores of the size of Lidl or Aldi (the biggest brand is a local one, although owned by Portuguese - Biedronka, we also have Lidl, Aldi, Tesco, Carrefour, Netto and other ones, but they are less common) are called supermarkets, but those of the size of Auchan or Real (I am not sure but I believe Walmart in the US is comparable) are called here hypermarkets.

But we are going off the topic again...


----------



## Penn's Woods

Just one more off-topic (sorry...): "hypermarket" isn't really an English word, unless it's sort of spread to us from Continental Europe. I encountered "hypermarché" when I was learning French, as a word for places like Carrefour. A supermarket, to me, is a large grocery store, i.e., a large store whose main business is selling food. A place like Wal-Mart is a "discount store."


----------



## volodaaaa

Penn's Woods said:


> Just one more off-topic (sorry...): "hypermarket" isn't really an English word, unless it's sort of spread to us from Continental Europe. I encountered "hypermarché" when I was learning French, as a word for places like Carrefour. A supermarket, to me, is a large grocery store, i.e., a large store whose main business is selling food. A place like Wal-Mart is a "discount store."


Almost all people I've met pronounce Carrefour in English accent :lol: Like (take) care 4 :lol: AFAIK it means "the intersection" in French


----------



## Haljackey

New Bridge(s) going up between Detroit, USA and Windsor, Canada

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bridge-gordie-howe-ambassador-moroun-windsor-detroit-1.4294977


----------



## Penn's Woods

volodaaaa said:


> Almost all people I've met pronounce Carrefour in English accent :lol: Like (take) care 4 :lol: AFAIK it means "the intersection" in French


It does mean "intersection." Back in the 80s, by the way, they were making an attempt at moving into the U.S. market. There was one in Philadelphia. I don't know whether they're still around.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Haljackey said:


> New Bridge(s) going up between Detroit, USA and Windsor, Canada
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bridge-gordie-howe-ambassador-moroun-windsor-detroit-1.4294977


Way more going on in that article than just progress on one bridge!


----------



## Kpc21

Penn's Woods said:


> Just one more off-topic (sorry...): "hypermarket" isn't really an English word, unless it's sort of spread to us from Continental Europe. I encountered "hypermarché" when I was learning French, as a word for places like Carrefour. A supermarket, to me, is a large grocery store, i.e., a large store whose main business is selling food. A place like Wal-Mart is a "discount store."


I know it isn't, that's why I explained how it works in a country with another local language.

Is - in proper English - a huge self-service branch store which sells mostly food, but also clothes, kitchen equipment, toys, car accessories and consumer electronics - called a discount store, or it refers only to those Lidl-sized ones (which, actually, sell mostly food + cosmetics and cleaning products, the offer of everything else is changed every week - although according to what you tell, it sounds more like supermarket)?



volodaaaa said:


> Almost all people I've met pronounce Carrefour in English accent :lol: Like (take) care 4 :lol: AFAIK it means "the intersection" in French


I think it depends on the language of the country where the specific store is located.

In French it just means intersection. "The intersection" would be "le carrefour", "an intersection" - "un carrefour".

The way how it is pronounced in Poland is not far from the original French pronunciation, just another syllable is stressed. KAR-fur, while in French it is kar-FUR. Where "u" means, of course, the "u" sound like in "put" or "oo" from "poor". Or some people pronounce it as KER-fur. "care-foor" if spelled according to English pronunciation. But in Polish commercials it's pronounced KAR-fur, not KER-fur.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^There IS an English Wikipedia entry on "hypermarket," although it also recognizes that Americans don't use that word and say it originated* with Carrefour and in French.

To me, a "discount store" is a place that has the same types of merchandise as a department store, but a lower level of service and therefore lower prices. Food is not necessarily an important part of the business; they may not sell it at all. I think I'd call a store that sells mostly food a supermarket, no matter how big it is. I'm not familiar with Lidl. I've heard of it, and I think we have them, but I've never been to one. So I can't answer that....

Also researched Carrefour. They're not in the U.S. or Canada now and I can find no mention that they ever were. I know I remember one in Philadelphia.

*I think. It's a half-hour since I read it.


----------



## Junkie

Because this thread is about borders and I will stay on the topic but I want to include one interesting thing regarding this talk ^^
On some borders I have seen casinos and shops beside the classic 'tax free' shops that are still present in some borders. Now for example there are 2 big casinos when entering my country from Greece and that's because of the cost of living here which is damn lover than in Greece. You can sleep there and have some fun(?)
Do you have casinos on the borders in Europe?


----------



## bogdymol

Junkie said:


> Do you have casinos on the borders in Europe?


Yes. What I remember seeing while driving there is:

Casino in Czech Republic, at the border with Austria

Casino in Slovenia, at the border with Austria

I am sure that there are also other examples, but I remember seeing these.


----------



## darko06

Haljackey said:


> New Bridge(s) going up between Detroit, USA and Windsor, Canada
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bridge-gordie-howe-ambassador-moroun-windsor-detroit-1.4294977


Interesting, this is one of few border crossings between the USA and Canada with inverted orientation, i.e. the USA, which is usually southernmost, here are at North. Besides, I'm glad that the both countries are considering proposal for the new bridge and an all-expressway/motorway border crossing, nowadays you drive a few miles in Windsor on the common road, and the Ambassador Bridge is not divided, if I remember well.


----------



## Boltzman

Junkie said:


> Do you have casinos on the borders in Europe?


Grand Casino Basel (Switzerland), just few meters away from France (and a couple of km away from Germany).

https://goo.gl/maps/mAXtA9BcEoR2


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## Junkie

More casinos:

https://www.google.mk/maps/@41.1360...xP7NvQIAj1_wLXPVUjPQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
https://www.google.mk/maps/@41.1395...346&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en


----------



## alserrod

Not an international border but just have a glance between Mesquite (Nevada) and their neighbourhs???? in Arizona

https://www.google.es/maps/@36.8123674,-114.0634838,6609m/data=!3m1!1e3

BTW, it is the only side of Nevada state with non-Pacific timezone


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## bogdymol

I was driving from Utah to LA and had to spend the night somewhere, so I slept in Mesquite in the hotel of a casino. I had to do the hotel check-in inside the casino, at the same counter where they were giving away the casino winnings. This town looks like Las Vegas jr. 

Tip: the Interstate in Arizona, just across the state border is amazing.


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## alserrod

Not a casino but "almost duty free shops". These kind of shops for goods which have different taxes in countries. In Spain there are someones boundaring with France

Portalet/Pourtalet pass... just after former booths... cross, buy and return!!

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.8057...HUtgD4JRHcsY96DIzUDQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es



Main St.James pilgrim path has one out of its border crossing here
(French douanes, just after corner, Spanish ones with the flag)
https://www.google.es/maps/@43.1087...nZuNOrq1gF9IBkZOSBpg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es


There are shops... but look at this corner some km. before!!!!

Road is in France but absolutely all shops in the left, after river remain in Spain!!!. no need to go to nearest border pass. It is a periclave

https://www.google.es/maps/@43.1184...Fj6NkEeb1KEadpZUET-g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es



and there are a lot of ones more... just a shop an a petrol station near the border but here, not only a petrol station but a shopping centre in Spain but parking is inside France still. You park in France, you cross to the shopping centre and come back

https://www.google.es/maps/@43.2931...w_KrE7KOuXrSZyfKs81g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es


They are only a couple of samples... We could set 20 or more


----------



## BlackC

bogdymol said:


> Yes. What I remember seeing while driving there is:
> 
> Casino in Czech Republic, at the border with Austria
> 
> Casino in Slovenia, at the border with Austria
> 
> I am sure that there are also other examples, but I remember seeing these.


https://www.google.be/maps/@50.3450119,3.9701878,537m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

We have them too in Belgium, French people living just across the border massively come to Belgium to play in the casino's. Not sure if in France they are banned or harder to get into.

Another good example:
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.7500...AuD9VHGfpZofx3ooJ5Ig!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

This street is full of shops selling tabac, betting and casino's. Here also, French come to buy their tabac/alcohol and play in casino's.


----------



## Verso

Since Italians (and even more Asians in Trieste) love casinos, but have very few of them in Italy, Nova Gorica in Slovenia is basically a gambling town, with Europe's largest casino. There's also a drive-in casino at the motorway border crossing.


----------



## bogdymol

Oh, I forgot about Nova Gorica. I spent a night also there in a casino hotel. Italians were gambling below my hotel room all night.


----------



## Gyorgy

And their visit also includes a stop at the gas station.


----------



## Junkie

Now the thing most probably is: Not only that in some countries casinos are illegal but over the border you get 'different' treatment and possibly very low prices. That's why I asked if this scheme is working on other places. I know because in my country Greek people used to game not just to gamble but to go on dentists, doctors, get petrol just across the border


----------



## alserrod

I read about Polish "dentist tourism". 
Health centres for dentist treatments where, mainly German but from anywhere, they were doctors who spoke several languages, made treatments on weekends and, if required several days, a pack offered also a tour over the city where health center was. 
All quite cheaper than in other countries...


----------



## Kpc21

cougar1989 said:


> At Germany the health insureance is paid with the salary.
> People which get money from the state (like unemployment or retirement), that pays the state.


Same in Poland.

Concerning the children and youth, if they are under 18 or they study, they don't work and they are under 26 - they are insured by the employer of one of the parents. Registered for the insurance - the employer doesn't deduct anything more than usually from the salary for that. But, anyway, even if a child (under 18) is not registered for the health insurance (even though it's obliged to), it is allowed to get free treatment.

The students (the doctoral ones too) above 26 who do not work are registered for the insurance by the university - I am not sure if the university pays anything for that or not.

A few years ago they introduced a computer system, so that when you go to a doctor office, you show your ID, they verify you and they know if you are insured. If the system says you aren't (and you know that you should be), you can sign a paper that you claim you are insured and then you get the free treatment anyway.

Before the electronic system, there were booklets which had to be stamped by the employer every year, or something like this. Later, they withdrew the booklets even though the electronic system was still not ready. Most doctor offices were still accepting the old booklets, still stamped by the employers, but otherwise you had to show an official form from the employer confirming that you are registered, which was a problem because it also showed your salary (it showed how much money from your gross salary was transferred to the social security).

If you are self-employed, if I am not mistaken, you have to pay like for any person you employ. If you are unemployed and registered in the employment office (like Arbeitsamt in German) as a person searching for work, you are registered by them. If you are retired, again I am not sure, but from I know, the money is deducted from your pension (income tax, by the way, too - which is a bit weird: the state gives you money but immediately deducts some part of it).

If you are not employed and not registered as unemployed, you can pay a voluntary monthly fee and be insured.

Then you don't pay for the medical services except for some which are considered "premium", like the mercury-free filling of the back teeth. The services are also sometimes limited in other ways, for example if you need a teeth prosthesis, you can get one not more frequently than once for a few years. If the one you got breaks down before that time, you must pay for the repair or for a new one. They don't finance dental implants, they don't finance dental braces (apart from the removable ones for children under 12).

Concerning the medicines, for some you have to pay the full price, some are partially refunded. For a short time, some are also free of charge for the elderly. Although there are some absurd things here. For example, a person in my family needs to take the Xarelto medicine for heat disease. And it would be free of charge, but only if... he had another disease (vein thrombosis). But for his illness, he must pay, even though this drug is quite expensive and there are problems with its availability. Recently, we found it in only one pharmacy in the town (in which there is 9 of them), for a much higher price than it would be in the other pharmacies if they had it (about 150 PLN instead of about 100 PLN). From what I have read, those problems are because of a weird sales policy of the Bayer company, which has a patent for it - if I remember well, they sell a limited amount of this medicine to the pharmacies for this price, and if they wanted to order more, the price would skyrocket and it would be something like 400 PLN. Which almost nobody could afford anyway.

And - to get closer to the border crossings problem - another issue that sometimes causes problems with availability of drugs in Poland is that they happen to be illegally exported to the western countries, as their prices in Poland are lower.

Apart from the state health insurance, which is not always perfect as I wrote (the biggest problem is the long waiting times to specialists), some employers - usually the multinational corporations - offer also free private health insurance plans as a bonus.

Concerning the dental healthcare in Germany - how extended is it? Does it cover, for example, mercury-free ("white" instead of "silver") filling in rear teeth, prostheses, implants, braces, anesthesia during the dental services?


----------



## Kpc21

alserrod said:


> The only fact is that public health service will be given to all Spanish within Spain even if not working but not for foreings (they must be working).
> 
> 
> For international travels I know that it is enough to have a general sample for the whole EU. They say that you may call in case you need health service and it could depend country and situation to be free or not.


Well. In the EU, if you are insured in the country where you live and work, you have automatically right to the healthcare services in all other EU countries on same rules as the people living and working there.

With a restriction that it cannot be any planned treatment, but only unexpected cases when you get sick or injured. And they won't pay for medical transport to your country.

To confirm your health insurance abroad, you need something called European Health Insurance Card (EHIC, its names in other countries differ, e.g. in Poland it's called EKUZ - Europejska Karta Ubezpieczenia Zdrowotnego):










The time for which they issue it - at least in Poland - depends on your purpose of going abroad (there are different application forms e.g. for those who go abroad touristically or for those who go for a student exchange) and on your health insurance status (e.g. if you are a child, you are working, you are retired, you are unemployed). In the most common case (a working person going abroad touristically) it's issued for a year, although until a few months ago it was only 6 months.

You get it immediately (apart from the long queues in the summer) when you go to the national healthcare office which are located in the main cities, although now you can also order it by email and they will send it by post. I had such a case when I was on a student exchange in Germany. I stayed there longer than it was originally planned (actually, it wasn't known how long I would stay there as the dates of the end-of-term exams where not decided yet), and in case of a student exchange, the card is issued for the period which you are planned to spend there (according to a paper from the university). So I ordered a new one for the remaining time by e-mail (attaching a scan of a paper from the university confirming the extension of the stay) and they sent it to me by post, by a registered letter.


----------



## Junkie

Kpc21 said:


> And - to get closer to the border crossings problem - another issue that sometimes causes problems with availability of drugs in Poland is that they happen to be illegally exported to the western countries, as their prices in Poland are lower.


So you want to say that there is a black market for these medicines because in the west they are much expensive? Are they from the same manufacterer? And if so what is the difference in price. This is interesting because I think strangers can't use these medicines and they go for black market maybe.


----------



## Kpc21

Yes, it seems there is kind of black market here. But it's rather between pharmacies or medicine wholesalers, I think. I don't know how it looks like on the western side - after all, those medicines have Polish packages and Polish information flyers, so they wouldn't be allowed to be sold in the pharmacies in the western Europe, just because of the language difference... Maybe they repack them to fake packages and print fake leaflets. Or they sell them online on portals like eBay for lower prices (although it would be quite dangerous in case of prescription medicines). I have no idea.

The prices of the medicines made by companies like e.g. Bayer are different for different countries, just because of differences of average salaries and so on. I don't think they export the medicines of Polish manufacturers, which are usually yet cheaper then the western equivalents (for example, we have a few local equivalents of Aspirin made by local companies, which are just the same medicine, with a different name - most popular one is Polopiryna) as they would be much more difficult to sell. Rather the more expensive medicines like the Xarelto I mentioned, which are usually patented by a single western company anyway.


----------



## Junkie

Aside this interesting talk lets get back on-topic. I don't want to speak politics here BUT:
One thing caught my eye, if Catalonia somehow manage to get independence from Spain seems that Andorra and Spain will not have shared border anymore. I really hope this would not happen, although when speaking about borders, maybe is possible that Catalonia will declare independence and set physical border even with Spain? So controls would start?


----------



## Penn's Woods

If Catalonia put up physical border facilities at a border Spain doesn’t recognize? That could be...interesting.

Whatever they do, I hope they negotiate it. No matter what your opinion of Catalan independence is (and my opinion is that it’s none of my business), I hope we can agree in hoping that whatever happens happens without people getting killed.


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## Junkie

I really know very little about Spain and Catalonia. Although I have been in Spain only once (in Barcelona) actually. Now I don't know whether they will get their independence but I think it will be bad if that happen!

I see some province borders on google maps now...
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.536...4!1sKWy7M05IPPbFacqckBw3fw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


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## alserrod

After seeing how they haven't had any poll today but a popcorn day... anything would be related to regional borders...


----------



## volodaaaa

Penn's Woods said:


> If Catalonia put up physical border facilities at a border Spain doesn’t recognize? That could be...interesting.
> 
> Whatever they do, I hope they negotiate it. No matter what your opinion of Catalan independence is (and my opinion is that it’s none of my business), I hope we can agree in hoping that whatever happens happens without people getting killed.


I am curious which double standard will be used this time: the Kosovo one or the Crimea one. Or maybe there will be new, Catalonian one.:lol::cheers:


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## alserrod

Catalonia bounds with France and Andorra in the north (international), Valencian region in the south (not many passes despite some of them strongly used, it is a tiny area) and Aragon, where I live, in the east


For instance, this is motorway Madrid/Bilbao/almostanywhere in Spain-Zaragoza-Barcelona where it enters in Catalonia

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.5055...Hj7b1SZdyAEkPxaECPLA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es

It doessn't appear but this road shift from Catalonia to Aragon from time to time

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.3591...717&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es



More in the south.... they do not point Catalonia anywhere (and some years ago it was unpaved in Catalonian side)

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.3931...o4BRXNH0dIPxAQHxu-vA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es


This little town must enter in Catalonia for railway station, which it is located in the other side of the river

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.2290...GgGwNCuto6wOIOFtSY4A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es

This river is well-known to have bath-places in summer. Catalonia in the picture, Aragon ahead. No pannels except one pointing the name of Teruel province at all

https://www.google.es/maps/@40.9505...P8RaK3qYDcnqp-Y3jYTQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es



And the most weird at all!!!

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.1516313,0.696177,197m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=es

It is not fake (well.... it is not accurate, bound it is some houses to the right). Four or five houses of that village are inside Catalonia.

From Aragon you can enter main downtown only by pedestrian bridge or by car crossing Catalonia
From Catalonia you can enter to those four houses only in an off-road car or crossing Aragon





But be sure it will remain a regional border, thus I quit this off-topic


----------



## jdb.2

If Cataluña became indepedent will it automatically stay part of the EU and the Schengen zone? In that case don't see any reason to put border facilities.
Or do they have to go to the entry process from scratch because it technically is a new member?


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## Junkie

^^
What I have been reading today, it would be the second.


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## alserrod

jdb.2 said:


> If Cataluña became indepedent will it automatically stay part of the EU and the Schengen zone? In that case don't see any reason to put border facilities.
> Or do they have to go to the entry process from scratch because it technically is a new member?


Schengen... do not know

EU, European commision said clearly: 28 states.... leaving one out of them, leaving EU for ALL deals.


Anyway... tomorrow, be sure no international borders will take place there (and I will bet that nothing in next years or more)
It is offtopic but everybody knows that it is part of a game to ask for more money in the region...


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## Kpc21

jdb.2 said:


> If Cataluña became indepedent will it automatically stay part of the EU and the Schengen zone? In that case don't see any reason to put border facilities.
> Or do they have to go to the entry process from scratch because it technically is a new member?


They automatically leave the EU and NATO. And they are likely to have problems with rejoining because Spain would probably veto them (although rather for political than practical reasons).


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## Attus

jdb.2 said:


> If Cataluña became indepedent will it automatically stay part of the EU and the Schengen zone?


No. And for political reasons (Spain would veto all the time) they would have very little chances to join EU.
So actually we could have a lot of new on topic facilities. No one has any idea today, how Spain would react to a border which they don't recognize.


----------



## alserrod

Attus said:


> No. And for political reasons (Spain would veto all the time) they would have very little chances to join EU.
> So actually we could have a lot of new on topic facilities. No one has any idea today, how Spain would react to a border which they don't recognize.


Easy... not leaving territories. There are some regions with regional police, almost all towns and cities have local police for local purposes but there is a national police.

In the Spanish constitution several points are set and one out of them is that region can managed almost all in their territory except some points like international controls.

It is enough for police to remain in airports, ports, checking smuggling via airplane or ship and Andorran border, nothing else....


----------



## Kpc21

But will the local units of the national police be loyal to the Spanish government or rather to the Catalan one? If those policemen live and work there, they would prefer working for Catalonia rather than staying on the Spanish side and defending the Spanish and not their local interests.

Leaving Spain from the Catalan point of view looked just stupid... until yesterday. After Spain did them what it did, the Spanish government will certainly start being disliked very much by many.

Attacking people organizing as well as taking part in (!) a peaceful pseudo-referendum (even if it was organized against the law) is not what you do in a democratic country.

The obvious thing to do was saying: it's OK, you did it, maybe even it's slightly over 50% for independence - but you know it wasn't legal, so there will be no independence (if you try to use military forces to gain it, we will answer). However, even though being a part of Spain has many advantages for Catalonia (here enumerating different examples), we will ensure that Catalonia will benefit even more from being a part of Spain rather than lose. Plus what you say about Catalonia losing by being part of Spain is wrong because... (and here again enumerating).

By doing what they did they just generate more rage and hatred, and just boost the Catalonia's independence ambitions.


----------



## alserrod

about border controls.... passport is done by national police, freight is controlled by civil guard, two corps belonging to central government and nobody dubts on their loyalty. But indeed... all inner questions in Catalonia are dealed by regional police which is loyal to regional government. 

For instance, in the Barcelona& Cambrils attacks we could see this police more than other just because there are many officers than other police.

Anyway, it is clear, there are a lot of issues to let dealed by regions and some of them that could be never manage them. One out of them is borders (national currency, official time, etc...). There are barely controls (no stops but they may check or control without stopping or so). But controls for non-Schengen area in harbours or airports, Andorran border, Gibraltar border and both Moroccan borders are managed by national police.

In this case, Andorran, airports and harbours.



About politicians... there are other threads but as a sum-up, people reject policy of Catalan president as well as point mistakes of Spanish president. Just briefly....


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## Junkie

^^
When I visited Barcelona in 2012 just for a short tourist visit of 3 days I came from second country and there was no check for my document, because they stamped me in the first point of entry (because there was anyway flight connection). 
But sudenly when I came there there was a check for luggage and everyone was checked I remember this. They ask me questions where I am going and how much I will stay. I offered them to provide hotel boking and return date tickets but they just said to open my luggage so they saw everything is fine and I was let in 

Now I see that obviously this must have been the national police it really has no logic that you are checked by the regional police or administrative unit corps...


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## alserrod

Police is usually more worried about one or another issue depending of origin. This is... should they know where the flight come, they know problems they can have.

One person working on an airport explained me next situation:
Flight: Bogota-Madrid. A lot of hours on the aire. Company sends Spanish police list of people in the plane. They check all the list and find one Spanish that had been there only for three days. It could be a short visit to a relative, even a fatal visit or so... but regarding its incomes, ticket was payed by another person several days ago (not a sudden trip) and it costed more than his incomes the previous year!!!!

As soon as he arrived to Madrid, no worried on documentation but direct to a strongly freight check.... and "something found".


In your case, they surely would check for fresh food (no problems if cans) and forbidden goods (like drugs, weapons, smuggling....) and really I reckon not much.

Passports?. They will have a list of passengers and will know which flights give problems for passengers and entry (where to focus all officers) and where they can have lack of control.



About police... they are two corps indeed. Passport would be in dark blue, freight in light green, both national corps but different name.

I had a friend who worked as an officer in Reus airport (mainly season flights for beaches). He said it was messy-blessy... national police for passports, civil guard for baggage, Catalan police for safety inside airport and, should you do not park correctly, fined by local police of Reus!!!!!!


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## Kpc21

The traditional division of continents in Poland is:
- Europe - Europa
- Asia - Azja
- Africa - Afryka
- North America - Ameryka Północna
- South America - Ameryka Południowa
- Australia and Oceania - Australia i Oceania

Of course, geographers use different divisions depending on different aspects. Technically speaking, as pieces of land connected with each other, if we ignore the man-made canals (specifically, the Suez Canal), Europe, Asia and Africa are a single continent. From the point of view of physical geography, Europe and Asia are very often considered together as Eurasia - the division between Europe and Asia is usually used due to the cultural differences.

When you say "amerykański" (American), you may mean something having to do with the USA, as well as with the American continent (any of both).

Concerning the oceans:
- Atlantic Ocean (commonly called also "the Atlantic" - Ocean Atlantycki / Atlantyk)
- Pacific Ocean ("the Pacific" - Ocean Spokojny / Pacyfik) - note that the full name is translated as something like "Calm Ocean", the popular short name is a loan word
- Indian Ocean (without any popular name) - Ocean Indyjski

Apart from that, there is either Arctic Ocean (Ocean Arktyczny) or Arctic Sea (Morze Arktyczne). I think most sources now name it Arctic Ocean.

Some sources distinguish also the Southern Ocean (Ocean Południowy), but traditionally, there is no such an ocean.

Another interesting issue is the naming of the eastern regions. In Poland, we distinguish "Close East" (Bliski Wschód) and "Far East" (Daleki Wschód). Our "Close East" is what is normally called Middle East in English (the countries in south-west Asia and north Africa where the dominant religion is islam). Far East is the same as in English (the countries of south-east Asia).


Returning to the topic of border crossings. The animal Poland is most proud of is the Europan bison, called here "żubr":










It was the first protected species in Poland - it was first taken into protection by the king Sigismund II Augustus (Zygmunt II August) in the 16. century. Anyway, in 1919 the last free living żubr was killed and then much effort was made to reintroduce it. The biggest population of this animal lives in the Białowieża Forest at the Polish-Belarussian border, but now there is a few forests in the whole Poland where they live.

In August, one of the Polish żubrs (I won't call it bison, bison live in America; the only bison you can see in Poland in their natural environment are combine harvesters) illegally crossed the Polish-German border. And... apparently, the Schengen zone doesn't work for wild animals, because while in Poland absolutely nobody touched it and wherever it appeared, local people were proud of it, in Germany it was killed by hunters...


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## Junkie

So it was poached for beef? 

What is the law regarding the animals can you move animals in your trailer across there or you need special permits?


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## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> Matter of opinion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and so on... and when we say "north" and "south" and it is not an administrative region (country, state, region or so on)... it is like if my brother said me he came yesterday from "Northern Europe" (and obviously he had been in a country located in the north side of European continent)
> 
> 
> When I studied geography,
> - North America... until Yucatan peninsula (thus Mexico partially in North and Central America)
> - Central America... since Yucatan until Panama channel (thus Panama city is in south America) plus all Caribbean despite islands were quite near to south or north America... thus Bahamas or Trinidad and Tobago belongs to Central America
> - South America, since Panama channel to Tierra del Fuego
> 
> In addition.... one island belongs to the nearest continent it has. That makes Hawai as part of Oceania, Greenland (and therefore Denmark) part of North America, and the two islands that are even Russian and US between Alaska and the last corner of Russia... I really do not know.
> 
> Moreover yesterday some matches for football world cup in 2018 were played and... Northern and Central America are joined in this case.
> 
> 
> That's the point of view of geography where it doesn't change because political reasons but remains.
> Another point of view is the political map, where we join all countries together and can find something weird (and makes us writing in this thread, for instance) but it is as things goes.
> 
> 
> Anyway... in English is real the world America is used mainly for "north America" and to say "south America" we may hint... but let's remember which is the second native language in the world and the.... by far... more spoken language in the whole continent.


Huh?
Alserrod, as is so often the case, I don't understand you....

But whatever. I don't think I've ever heard an English-speaking person use the word "America" to refer to the two (or three, if you prefer) continents. If you need to refer to all the Western Hemisphere landmasses by one term, it's "the Western Hemisphere" or "the Americas." "America" is always understood as referring to the U.S., although honestly, I've heard British people say "America" when I'd use "U.S."....


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## Kpc21

Junkie said:


> What is the law regarding the animals can you move animals in your trailer across there or you need special permits?


Within the country you can, across the border you need a passport for the animal and sometimes other documentation. For a dog, I don't think you need any permit, for a horse, from what I've read, you need one.


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## Suburbanist

Bringing dogs and cats from Afirca to Europe on ferries or from countries beyond Turkey is a cumbersome process requiring advance preparation and quarantine. Bringing livestock is much more regulated and often prohibited outright .


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## MichiH

Penn's Woods said:


> Alserrod, as is so often the case, I don't understand you....


Me too...



Penn's Woods said:


> "America" is always understood as referring to the U.S., although honestly, I've heard British people say "America" when I'd use "U.S."....


Germans use "Amerika" for USA too. "Americans" are "Amis". "Amerikas" is never used in German. I know "Americas" in English only.


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## Attus

Penn's Woods said:


> I don't think I've ever heard an English-speaking person use the word "America" to refer to the two (or three, if you prefer) continents. (...) "America" is always understood as referring to the U.S.


I think he, too, for him you did not vote, does not want to make those contents great again


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## Junkie

So livestock moving is not possible without permits? Once I saw a truck with chickens traveling in an animal trailer but I am not sure where was their origin and destination. If it is not possible for them to pass without permits I wonder if this is consider as a legal way of moving.


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## Kpc21

But you mean within the country or across the border?

Let's say someone spontaneously buys a few (live) chickens on the town market. How could he move them home if he needed a special permit for that?


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## Junkie

No I mean accross the border... Can you go and sell livestock in another country? 
It is interesting this because I know in Europe you can move freely but I don't know about animals...


----------



## Kpc21

Since we joined the EU, all the cows in Poland must have earrings. If the EU enforces such regulations, that means it regulates the cow market, and the reason must have something to do with the free trade.

But the trade in the EU is not entirely free, there are goods for importing/exporting which within the EU you need special permits. Like the, recently discussed, medicines. Or cigarettes and liqueurs, the prices of which are often very different in different countries. Or recreational drugs, illegal even to possess in most EU countries, but legal even to sell in a few of them.


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## MattiG

Kpc21 said:


> But the trade in the EU is not entirely free, there are goods for importing/exporting which within the EU you need special permits.


The free trade in the EU does not mean that anything can be sold and bought freely. Instead, it means that the member countries and their public organizations are not allowed to favor domestic products over foreign ones.


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## Junkie

How is the rail or the ship transport going from one to another country? For example how is transport going from Poland to Sweden? Do you need papers for customs if some goods should be declared? Or you can just load anything you like and send it to Scandinavia ? Because as I understand well its single market so there should't be any customs for any goods. Or maybe I am wrong.


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> In case of duty free areas you may declare them. As said... in domestic flights within Canary islands and mainland all passengers must declare goods... (only apply to over rate and avoiding taxes. Things for personal use is out of those taxes and should you do not fill your baggage with tobacco and alcohol, there are no problems)


Yes, there are some exceptions within the special areas - Aland and Gibraltar are another two examples of territories that are in the EU but outside the fiscal zone. 

If you ask me, the idea of European (and nearby, such as the Canaries or Aland) territories having a separate customs territory is nonsense. The Spanish territories are integral parts of Spain, and Gibraltar is very much in Europe - and should be treated as such.


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## Suburbanist

Junkie said:


> How is the rail or the ship transport going from one to another country? For example how is transport going from Poland to Sweden? Do you need papers for customs if some goods should be declared? Or you can just load anything you like and send it to Scandinavia ? Because as I understand well its single market so there should't be any customs for any goods. Or maybe I am wrong.


There are no customs forms required to transport goods within EU. AN invoice with the appropriate EU VAT codes and registration number for seller and if applicable (B2B) buyer is enough. Regular customs checks are not allowed, sporadic controls for non EU smuggling , drugs etc are allowed. Note that the Swiss and Norwegian borders follow different procedures, one more reason it would be cool if they joined.


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## volodaaaa

Eulanthe said:


> If you ask me, the idea of European (and nearby, such as the Canaries or Aland) territories having a separate customs territory is nonsense.


I think such existed within a short period of post-war Yugoslavia and than Serbia-Montenegro


----------



## abdeka

^^ Algeria and Mauritania will open a border crossing in the coming days.



> *Mauritanian president, Algerian FM meet in Nouakchott*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Two men discuss political developments and ongoing fight against terrorism in Africa's Sahel region*
> 
> By Abdel Razek Abdallah
> 
> NOUAKCHOTT
> 
> Mauritanian President Mohamed Ould Abdel Aziz on Thursday held talks in Nouakchott with Algerian Foreign Minister Abdelkader Messahel, who is currently touring Africa’s north-central Sahel region.
> 
> At a press conference held after the meeting, Messahel told reporters that he and the Mauritanian president had discussed the latest political developments and the region’s ongoing fight against terrorism, organized crime and illegal migration.
> 
> Within this context, the Algerian FM called for stepped-up coordination between the two neighboring countries.
> 
> Algeria’s southern city of Tamanrasset currently serves as headquarters for a regional coalition tasked with combating terrorism. Along with Algeria, the coalition includes Mauritania, Niger, Chad and Mali.
> 
> *Messahel also announced that, in coming days, a new border crossing would be opened linking Algeria’s Tindouf province to the Mauritanian city of Zouerat*.
> 
> *The new crossing, he said,* *“will serve to strengthen relations between residents of the border areas and open the door to increased economic and trade exchanges between our two countries”.*
> 
> On Wednesday, Messahel began a tour of Africa’s Sahel region that will also include stops in Chad, Mali and Niger.


http://aa.com.tr/en/africa/mauritanian-president-algerian-fm-meet-in-nouakchott/934241


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## ChrisZwolle

That is a very remote border crossing, especially from a Mauritanian point of view. The mentioned city Zouérat is over 800 kilometers away, which according to Google Earth, is entirely on unpaved 'roads' (mostly just tracks in the desert).


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## alserrod

I read, a long time ago that there was a north-south African road and unpaved in that area despite they had UN support to built it... and Algerian border control was 30 km away or more from border.


Does anyone have a pic?


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## Nikkodemo

*I didn't find any pic of Mauritanian/Algerian borderline, but, I found this pic about the borderline between Algeria and Morocco:*










https://www.thenational.ae/image/policy:1.97785:1499258187/image/jpeg.jpg?f=16x9&w=1024&$p$f$w=2589da4


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## alserrod

Even they can ask for your boarding pass in a duty free shop. Once I asked reason in a shop and they explained me that.... LOL, providing destination, prices could be different. I asked which destinations. I do not remember which ones they were (not very usual), they didn't have direct flights to that destination but some passenger could have a linked flight to those countries... thus, compulsory to scan boarding pass and price will appear


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## Junkie

Yes it has happened once when I wanted to buy one small thing they say you must give us boarding ticket.
And when I have wanted tax back (tax-free) I have to provide all paper including boarding ticket


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## Kanadzie

alserrod said:


> Even they can ask for your boarding pass in a duty free shop. Once I asked reason in a shop and they explained me that.... LOL, providing destination, prices could be different. I asked which destinations. I do not remember which ones they were (not very usual), they didn't have direct flights to that destination but some passenger could have a linked flight to those countries... thus, compulsory to scan boarding pass and price will appear


 I've had this with duty-free in USA airports with no "international zone"
they ask your boarding pass and note your details. If domestic flight = go away.
They won't give you the bottle you paid for, instead, once the plane is boarding, the guy will go with all the bottles in a cart into the jetway and give you the bottle just before the plane itself. But they are always kind of late to get there and you get so anxious about the whole thing. Crazy puritanical country :nuts:

In Canada the major airports have USA customs inside them. If you fly to USA you pass the customs directly before getting to a special "USA-zone". The advantage is when your plane lands, it is considered "domestic" so you walk right off the plane and straight to the rental car counter and onto the road :cheers: Canada has the right to do same in USA but doesn't bother.
I've had almost similar "questioning" by US-agents in Europe as bogdymol described going to the US (e.g. Amsterdam/Schiphol) but it doesn't count as "real" immigration, so you do it again when you land in Amerika. This just sucks hno:

Speaking of air travel, what are your experiences with rental cars at your destination? At major airports in North America the process to give the car back is really nice - you pull into the parking which is just a few lines of cars and a person is there with a ipad-type device. They scan barcode on the window, take the key and give receipt and you go straight to your flight, you don't even really stop walking from when you open the car door. From the motorway to the airport its faster than a taxi even... My only EU experience was at Warsaw/Okecie where I had to park and go inside to the rental car counter (where I got the keys) and sign papers, talk to the bored and slow-moving clerk for 20 minutes... but maybe the bigger airports have this system.

I've also had the experience of the "off-airport" rental where you call the agency when you land and they come to pick you up to go to their office some +/- 5 km away, the time this requires is not fun, but the cost savings is often substantial I find.


----------



## OulaL

bogdymol said:


> Airlines always check your ID card/passport to match the name on the boarding pass. They also do this on internal flights (I flew internal flights in Romania, Germany, UK and USA, and have been always checked). This is to prevent another person flying with your ticket.


I flew an intra-Schengen flight three days ago (Stockholm to Helsinki to be exact) and no ID was ever asked. Not by authorities, not by the airline. The only document needed was the flight confirmation which I had printed at home. With this document, I was given my boarding pass; with the boarding pass, I went through the security and the departure gate. (I had my passport in my pocket but no one asked.)



alserrod said:


> Even they can ask for your boarding pass in a duty free shop. Once I asked reason in a shop and they explained me that.... LOL, providing destination, prices could be different. I asked which destinations. I do not remember which ones they were (not very usual), they didn't have direct flights to that destination but some passenger could have a linked flight to those countries... thus, compulsory to scan boarding pass and price will appear


Depending on the type of the product (such as alcohol), you are not supposed to do "duty free" shopping at all, if you fly within the EU customs area. Instead, you pay the "normal" price including the VAT.

If you fly out of the EU customs area, then you don't pay the VAT.

EU customs area is mostly the same as EU, but it doesn't include some special areas such as the Canary islands.


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## Capt.Vimes

Polish border police officers are on shift on the BG-TK border crossing at Malko Tarnovo. Bulgarian officers from day and night shift have been apprehended, they are suspected in corruption. The border crossing was closed for 7 hours.

Article in Bulgarian.


----------



## Junkie

Capt.Vimes said:


> Polish border police officers are on shift on the BG-TK border crossing at Malko Tarnovo. Bulgarian officers from day and night shift have been apprehended, they are suspected in corruption. The border crossing was closed for 7 hours.
> 
> Article in Bulgarian.


Is this so because some of the officers were actually Bulgarian Turks? And given the fact that corruption is sky-high in Bulgaria overall, I'm really not even amazed by this.


----------



## Junkie

BTW: That's one of the most toughest borders I have ever seen. I wonder how much smuggling in thousands of tons is passing everyday from Turkey, Middle East, Asia and so on. It is more corrupted border than the Greek side with Turkey.


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## Capt.Vimes

Junkie said:


> Is this so because some of the officers were actually Bulgarian Turks?


There is no ifnormation about the ethnicity of the police officers.


----------



## bogdymol

Kanadzie said:


> Speaking of air travel, what are your experiences with rental cars at your destination?


From my own experience:

UK: at some airports (Heathrow, Stansted, Luton, Manchester) you have a free shuttle bus running every 10-20 minutes between the airport terminal and the "car rental village" (where all major car rental companies are located together). At other, usually smaller, airports (Gatwich, Birmingham, Glasgow, Bristol), the major car rental agencies are located a short walk away from the terminal.

Ireland: at Cork airport it's right in the terminal, but in Dublin the car pick-up is at the terminal, but car drop-off is 2-3 km away (you have a free shuttle bus).

Portugal: at Faro airport it's right at the terminal, but at Porto is a short shuttle bus ride away.

USA: in Miami it's right in the terminal, at Los Angeles and Las Vegas you need to get a free shuttle bus and at San Francisco you need to take a short train ride (free of charge).

At all airports mentioned above, the return of the car was made as you mentioned: you park the car, one of their employees comes and quickly check the car (mileage, if it's full + any potential damage), you get a receipt and off you go. Everything takes less than a minutes.

At Luxembourg airport on the other hand, the car rental companies are inside the terminal, and everything goes really quickly beeing a small airport, but the car return is different: you park the car, note the parking space number, and then you go to their counter, return the keys and the car documents and let them know where to find the car. They'll check it out later.

At Malaga airport in Spain I used a low-cost car rental company which had an interesting system. I provided them with my flight details, and one of their employees waited me at the arrival flight exit. We went together to the public car park (where the car was), made the papers directly there and paid it to him (he had a mobile card payment device), and I got the car. When I returned back to the airport, I drove to their office (2 km from the airport) and there one of their employees got into the car, drove me to the departures terminal, left me there and off he went (it was like dropping a friend at the airport).


----------



## MichiH

Kpc21 said:


> But at the departure, how can the police/border guard know which plane - to which country - you take?


There are usually different terminals or minimum different departure gates for Schengen flights and non-Schengen flights. Sometimes there are more "categories" for special checks like flights to USA or to Israel et cetera.


----------



## Junkie

Regarding this discussion until recently I was amazed to find out that some Western countries need visa for Turkey. 
I don't really know why some of them are on the list and the others are not but they maintain this. For example countries of Sweden, Poland, Spain, Austria, Belgium, the Netherlands, Croatia need visa to travel there. It is really strange.


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## VITORIA MAN

Just to get money , before you paid the "visa fee" at the airport , now online


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## aubergine72

Junkie said:


> Is this so because some of the officers were actually Bulgarian Turks?


Ethnic Turkish population isn't concentrated on the Turkish border, so it's doubtful.


----------



## Kpc21

Junkie said:


> Regarding this discussion until recently I was amazed to find out that some Western countries need visa for Turkey.
> I don't really know why some of them are on the list and the others are not but they maintain this. For example countries of Sweden, Poland, Spain, Austria, Belgium, the Netherlands, Croatia need visa to travel there. It is really strange.


This "visa" looks like a postal stamp. Or it looked so when it wasn't online yet. And, from what I remember, it cost something like 15 EUR/20 USD or 20 EUR/25 USD.

I also don't understand that. This visa thing is only about gathering money, and why do they do it from Polish people and not from (richer) Germans?


----------



## alserrod

MichiH said:


> There are usually different terminals or minimum different departure gates for Schengen flights and non-Schengen flights. Sometimes there are more "categories" for special checks like flights to USA or to Israel et cetera.


Depending of airport. There are someones that have different terminals for Shchengen and non-Schengen countries. You will cross trhough booths and enter into terminal

But in other ones I have seen one only terminal and there will be only one terminal and booths in each depending of destination, when they open gates to board on, they will set officers in the specific booth.


----------



## Kanadzie

bogdymol said:


> At Malaga airport in Spain I used a low-cost car rental company which had an interesting system. I provided them with my flight details, and one of their employees waited me at the arrival flight exit. We went together to the public car park (where the car was), made the papers directly there and paid it to him (he had a mobile card payment device), and I got the car. When I returned back to the airport, I drove to their office (2 km from the airport) and there one of their employees got into the car, drove me to the departures terminal, left me there and off he went (it was like dropping a friend at the airport).


That's pretty good. Every time I've had one of those, I give the flight number but the person isn't there, and I have to call and wait for them to show up :lol:


----------



## MattiG

Kpc21 said:


> This "visa" looks like a postal stamp. Or it looked so when it wasn't online yet. And, from what I remember, it cost something like 15 EUR/20 USD or 20 EUR/25 USD.
> 
> I also don't understand that. This visa thing is only about gathering money, and why do they do it from Polish people and not from (richer) Germans?


The visa-exemption agreements are usually bilateral. Some countries are more active in negotiating them than the others. Poland seems to not be active.


----------



## Kpc21

alserrod said:


> But in other ones I have seen one only terminal and there will be only one terminal and booths in each depending of destination, when they open gates to board on, they will set officers in the specific booth.


Do they then divide the departures area (the one behind the security) into a Schengen and non-Schengen part? Because what if there are flights to both a Schengen and a non-Schengen country at the same time, or if someone will enter the area very early before his non-Schengen flight, when there is no office yet?

And, by the way - I never tried that, but from what I understand, it shouldn't be a problem to enter the departures area (when there is a flight to a Schengen country) even if you are not flying anywhere - the only thing is that you must go through the security. If I remember well, they don't check the boarding cards on the way between the entrance hall and the departures area, at least on some airports (on some, there are gates before the security, on which you must scan your boarding card). Am I right?


----------



## alserrod

Kpc21 said:


> Do they then divide the departures area (the one behind the security) into a Schengen and non-Schengen part? Because what if there are flights to both a Schengen and a non-Schengen country at the same time, or if someone will enter the area very early before his non-Schengen flight, when there is no office yet?



Depending of airport... In my homecity we have a tiny airport. Everyone has to go inside tracks to take a plane (and once they had three ones in the whole day, two out of them RYR in 30 minutes, they took a mistake and two passengers flyed in opposite directions!!!!). 
In that case, there is a small custom booth for non-Schengen departures... but at the end the airplane will be in the same point. They have to check that everyone go to their airplane

In addition, in middle airports have seen only one terminal. In that case, boarding pass is checked before crossing security point. You have all duty free shops together (but must show boarding pass) and, just in case destination is non-Schengen, police can be located besides company employees to ask for passport.

Therefore, Schengen and non-Schengen destination passengers will share same shops, restaurants and so on. It makes simple to manage it.







> And, by the way - I never tried that, but from what I understand, it shouldn't be a problem to enter the departures area (when there is a flight to a Schengen country) even if you are not flying anywhere - the only thing is that you must go through the security. If I remember well, they don't check the boarding cards on the way between the entrance hall and the departures area, at least on some airports (on some, there are gates before the security, on which you must scan your boarding card). Am I right?


When kid I remember main airports with "national" and "international" terminals... and in small airports it was police who asked for passport when security control, not after or later, and without booths.

A person couldn't entry inside boarding area for safety. A person who works in an airport told me that all of them, even greater or very small, have "red lines" for "air area" and "land area". Air area is a point where you can entry into an airplane without control. The area of duty free shops is air area because it is only responsibility of each company to let you entry or not, for instance.

For that case, it is a restricted area and all employees must check when entry there and when getting out.
And, obviously all movements are recorded

But there is a strongest point: when you land and entry for baggage claim. There will be some gates that say "no return". It is the most controlled point.
Reason?. It could be very easy for an airport employee to be there with drugs, for instance, and giving to a crew person of an airplane and departing in a couple of minutes... or just shifting one for another and leaving airport one person.

It is the most controlled area at all.


----------



## Eulanthe

About airports and customs controls - I was in Malaga Airport yesterday and two weeks ago, and I wonder how they're going to handle things post-Brexit. As it is right now, the infrastructure for customs checks isn't big enough to handle the amount of British tourists that come yearly, and the passport control areas are way too small to handle the detailed checks that several flights of non-EU passengers will need.

It seems to me that it's the same in many European airports that only really have flights to EU non-Schengen countries, and in all of them, the infrastructure will need to be upgraded to handle everything. 

The same applies in reverse, of course - places like the Western Docks in Dover will need to be upgraded to provide areas for customs checks. 

Another update on Gibraltar: they just don't care on both sides, but Spain is again playing stupid tricks with exit lanes. This time, they were forcing all cars through a single exit and entry lane, though not actually stopping anyone. The infrastructure that was built to provide a place for secondary checks is barricaded off, too.

One interesting thing that I observed about Gibraltar is that customs officers are almost non-existent at the border. They were nowhere to be seen when entering or exiting, by foot and by car. I asked how I was supposed to make a declaration, and the immigration police guy said "If there's no-one there, then consider it a green light to go".


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## alserrod

Same situation in Andorra.

I glanced a road transit count and La Seu-Border with Andorra could be the 1x1 national road with more traffic!!!!!!. 


Getting out from Andorra on sunday evening and... only one lane for booths available!!!!. 
At least they didn't stopped cars, just glanced and randomly checks... and weren't strongly in customs.... but congestion was important


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> One interesting thing that I observed about Gibraltar is that customs officers are almost non-existent at the border. They were nowhere to be seen when entering or exiting, by foot and by car. I asked how I was supposed to make a declaration, and the immigration police guy said "If there's no-one there, then consider it a green light to go".


Why do you expect customs officers at an internal EU border?


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> Why do you expect customs officers at an internal EU border?


Gibraltar is in the European Union, but it's outside the fiscal territory of the European Union - so there are full Customs controls between Gibraltar and the rest of the EU. There's no VAT there, and I think there's no excise taxes on things like fuel, cigarettes and alcohol.

There's a good list here that explains it - https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custo...al-status-eu-countries-certain-territories_en 

What they do have is quite high import taxes - I think it's around 12% flat rate. 

Interestingly enough, they have their own immigration system too. You need a passport or ID card to fly between Gibraltar and the UK, for instance.


----------



## alserrod

Verso said:


> Why do you expect customs officers at an internal EU border?




It is a non-visible custom but in any flight between Canary islands or Melilla and Spain mainland will have to declare any good. There are no special cases of smuggling. Not many goods deserve to take into a baggage and pay a 3h plane ticket but... when you cross in the side of "nothing to declare/something to declare" you must do it.

And.. it is a domestic flight. Obviously they will never ask for passport, but they can ask for goods.


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## nenea_hartia

Next pic normally belongs to another thread. Or not? Welcome to Flanders!


----------



## Verso

^^ Seriously? And why not 90 km/h in the countryside like on the Belgian sign?


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## ChrisZwolle

Flanders unilaterally reduced the speed limit in rural areas to 70 km/h. Road administration is devolved in Belgium, there are in practice no national roads (though there is a national road numbering system).


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## 8166UY

Even more confusing, the demands for driving licenses are different between Flanders and Wallonia. Both require lessons given by peers (with a minimum amount of having a driving license), but Flanders also made it obligated that the teachers get 3 hours worth of classes. There are probably more differences, but I'm too lazy to check.


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## CNGL

Here's Wallonia's counterpart. At least regular roads have a general 90 km/h speed limit, much better than that ridiculously slow 70 km/h in Flanders.


ChrisZwolle said:


> A Wallonia speed limit sign. These became necessary after Flanders reduced the general non-urban speed limit from 90 to 70 km/h.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

CNGL said:


> that ridiculously slow 70 km/h in Flanders.


Though in some instances 70 km/h is too slow in Flanders, I'd like to add some context to that statement. 

In much of Flanders, nearly the entire countryside is developed with ribbon development along major roads, including most N-roads. This means that you can drive tens of kilometers outside of city limits while still having continuous development on the side of the road. 

It would be a step too far to incorporate the entire road network within city limits, so 70 km/h is a compromise. Before they lowered the general speed limit, 70 km/h was already very widespread on N-roads in Belgium.

Though there are some indications that they're overdoing it by reducing the speed limits on roads with fewer development or divided roadways to 70 km/h as well.


----------



## trilobitas

A moose on the run from euroasiatic union to European union (Belarus to Lithuania)


----------



## Thermo

8166UY said:


> Even more confusing, the demands for driving licenses are different between Flanders and Wallonia.


Why is that confusing? If you live in Flanders, you have to follow the Flemish laws/regulations, in Wallonia the Walloon ones. 

Same for schools. There is no Belgian school/educational system. Flanders and Wallonia have their own system. 

It's a thing called federalism.


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## ChrisZwolle

*France-Andorra*

They built a new border crossing station on French N22, a few kilometers before the border with Andorra.

I've never driven through El Pas de la Casa, but I took the Envalira Tunnel in 2008 and there was no border check of any kind. It seems to have been built around 2010.


----------



## Junkie

trilobitas said:


> A moose on the run from euroasiatic union to European union (Belarus to Lithuania)


These fences obviously make very big damage to ecosystem and animal movement. 
What can human create it is only disaster :-(


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> They built a new border crossing station on French N22, a few kilometers before the border with Andorra.
> 
> I've never driven through El Pas de la Casa, but I took the Envalira Tunnel in 2008 and there was no border check of any kind. It seems to have been built around 2010.



There was a sort of control there and in google street view I have seen pictures when they were u/c.

Anyway, a French forumer said that it was usual not to be stopped there but randomly later (this is, you crossed "nothing to declare").

Have seen Discovery documentaries and in Spain they make from time to time. You can go through custom facilities and non stopped but a random check later. I listened an officer and he came from Algeciras border. He said that smuggling there was absolutely different but he just needed a couple of months to know which cars had "more points" to be stopped and which ones just drive trhough.


About Pas de la Casa, as you said, after tunnel you entry into France for a while (except if a tiny road for service is taken). Booths and fence remained there for sometime too until the road was refurbished.


----------



## Tchek

Thermo said:


> Why is that confusing? If you live in Flanders, you have to follow the Flemish laws/regulations, in Wallonia the Walloon ones.
> 
> Same for schools. There is no Belgian school/educational system. Flanders and Wallonia have their own system.
> 
> It's a thing called federalism.


Spain and the United States are federal countries too; i'm not sure that getting your licence in Galicia is much different from getting it in Catalonia; nor that education in Oregon is different from education in Wisconsin.

It's just that Belgium is a mess.


----------



## Kpc21

What if you spend, let's say, 50% of your life in Flanders and 50% in Wallonia, and you have apartments in both regions?

Do you have in Belgium something like an official registration of the place where you live (Polish: meldunek, German: Anmeldung - there is no unambiguous English term for that), which is unique for the whole country?

In Poland, this thing is quite crazy, because there is many people who are "angemeldet" in a different place than they actually live. So... there are often two addresses used, even, for official reasons. The address of residence and the address of registration. Usually, for the official reasons, the address of registration is used, they send the mail from courts to it, for example - but, on the other hand, the tax offices use the address of residence. You put the address of residence on the tax return forms, and the tax office you are assigned to depends on your actual place of residence and not of registration.

Theoretically you are obliged to be registered ("angemeldet") in the place where you live, but... there is no punishment if you don't do it. Until a short time ago, there was, but since the end of communism, it was almost not at all used in practice. And they wanted to totally remove this demand to register yourself where you live, but now they postponed it to nobody knows when, as there were some problems concerning other laws demanding existence something like official registration.


----------



## alserrod

Tchek said:


> Spain and the United States are federal countries too; i'm not sure that getting your licence in Galicia is much different from getting it in Catalonia; nor that education in Oregon is different from education in Wisconsin.
> 
> It's just that Belgium is a mess.


In Spain they are absolutely the same licences and managed by same administration: DGT (Traffic general bureau).

There is a sort of points system since july 2006. The system is the same for the whole country. It could be a mess but... for local streets, local police gets control, in Catalonian, Navarran or Basque country regions, their police, in the rest of regions (it includes Canary islands, Ceuta and Melilla), Civil guard, but in anycase, any police will notify traffic centre about points


And traffic law and restriction is the same in all the country.


----------



## italystf

trilobitas said:


> A moose on the run from euroasiatic union to European union (Belarus to Lithuania)


He's probably trying to flee Lukashenko regime and get political asylum in the free world. :troll:


----------



## Tchek

Kpc21 said:


> What if you spend, let's say, 50% of your life in Flanders and 50% in Wallonia, and you have apartments in both regions?
> 
> Do you have in Belgium something like an official registration of the place where you live (Polish: meldunek, German: Anmeldung - there is no unambiguous English term for that), which is unique for the whole country?


I don't know, usually both Flemish and Wallons tend to stay in their own region; Belgium is the center of the EU, yet it's probably the country that discourage the most its inhabitants from mobility, there was even a decreet "Wonen in eigen streek" which means "living in your own region" which discouraged any outsider from an area to move in... it was ultimately rejected by the European Court, because it's "contrary to European values of freedom".
Belgians have a pariochial mentality.


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## alserrod

Don't know.

Have seen E-AND former pictures and compared one out of them with a recent picture spotted by myself. A long time ago it was a fence in a non-paved road an police in both sides. That was all.

But never seen old F-AND pictures


----------



## Junkie

Regarding the recent situation with Catalonia becoming independent country on its own, seem that Spain will have no border with Andorra anymore.....


----------



## Kpc21

Difficult to say regarding that the status of Catalonia will be similar to the one of Kosovo, or even worse, as the EU countries rather do not want to recognize it...

Although it depends on the course of events, and there is quite a few possible scenarios just now.


----------



## volodaaaa

There are border checks in Kosovo or Crimea as well regardles of their formal status.


----------



## grykaerugoves

volodaaaa said:


> There are border checks in Kosovo or Crimea as well regardles of their formal status.












FYROM ( Former Yugoslav) border with Republic of Albania.


----------



## alserrod

Junkie said:


> Regarding the recent situation with Catalonia becoming independent country on its own, seem that Spain will have no border with Andorra anymore.....


Just go and find if you can have a Catalan police stamp on your passport, never mind where you enter......


----------



## Attus

Junkie said:


> Regarding the recent situation with Catalonia becoming independent country on its own, seem that Spain will have no border with Andorra anymore.....


As a matter of fact, Catalonia does not seem to be independent. Not any nation will recognize it (apart from some separatist nations like Northern Cyprus), and (unline Kosovo, Nothern Cyprus or Transdnistria) Catalonia will never, or at least not in the following weeks work as an independent nation.


----------



## Junkie

It is not possible to proclaim independence without formally declare the autonomous borders as a country borders.... So I said 'if' Catalonia wanna be independent they must install border with Spain and on the airports and sea ports....

Otherwise they will be like Transnistria in Moldova a separatist region without physical borders just separatist 'checks' (?) prior to entering and also their own doing politics. 

And the Russian separatist region of Abkhazia in Georgia is the same.

But on the side of the politics, Catalonia really has no supporting sides, unlike many Russian enclaves which have Russia to 'protect' them.


----------



## alserrod

Anyway... we should chat in regional border threads indeed (new parliament elections are called for December 21st)

Catalan police remains keeping safety. It was matter of chance... but R.Madrid had to go this afternoon to play against last Catalan president homecity and they said safety was assured. Enough to glance any sport newspaper... they talk only about sport (and btw, R.Madrid has lost).

Spanish police remains surveilling customs. Not many of them at all. This is Andorran one (and they are more worried in blackmoney than in passports), and international flights (and ferries but there aren't too much... most of work on harbours are for freight because main passenger traffic is to Balearic islands) and so on...

Therefore... I just ask to talk about in regional borders thread. I could point a picture of an Aragonese village where last four houses are inside Catalonia, for instance, or the matter that bound between regions sometimes is a nightmare, but really, there is nothing else to say in these terms...


----------



## Junkie

I understand what you want to say.

That the state borders are kept by the capital and not by the autonomous province. I am talking about international crossings here not regional..... Now the thing is what will happen if Catalonia provide border with Spain. That way your capital will have to withdraw your officers from airports from example and they will install their own staff...

As far as I know this is the same between Moldova and Ukraine. Although Russia has enclave there, and that enclave is bordering Ukraine, but still the officials are from Moldova.... If not someone correct me.


----------



## stickedy

Junkie said:


> As far as I know this is the same between Moldova and Ukraine. Although Russia has enclave there, and that enclave is bordering Ukraine, but still the officials are from Moldova.... If not someone correct me.


I highly doubt that, afaik Transnistria is controlling it's borders.

It's not Russia


----------



## Kpc21

Attus said:


> Catalonia will never, or at least not in the following weeks work as an independent nation.


In the following weeks - you are right, but I would be really careful with saying never. It really depends on the course of events. And on the people of Catalonia. In my opinion, their fight for independence is quite stupid, but after what Spain recently did to them, it's not unlikely... If they will be determined, they will become independent and recognized by majority of countries and Spain won't be able to stop that.

Just now, there is no real independence of Catalonia, as Spain is still controlling its area.



Junkie said:


> That the state borders are kept by the capital and not by the autonomous province. I am talking about international crossings here not regional..... Now the thing is what will happen if Catalonia provide border with Spain. That way your capital will have to withdraw your officers from airports from example and they will install their own staff...


I believe Spain will be really determined to keep their offices in Catalonia on the airports and external borders of the (currently recognized) Spain. It would be necessary to use force to remove them.

And all this is because of Spain doing things they should never do in a civilized country with this referendum imitation... They would do nothing but convince people it's better for them to stay in Spain, they would support the pseudo-referendum (still claiming and loudly saying it's not a real referendum, just an opinion poll) and ensure that there is no manipulation in the counting of votes, the result of voting would be most likely for staying in Spain and it would stop the discussion about the Catalan independence. If it was for leaving Spain - it would still be close to 50% and the determination of Catalonia to declare independence would be definitely much weaker than it is now. Even if it was close to 100% for the independence, the situation wouldn't be different from the current one, apart from that there would be less hate on Spain in Catalonia.



stickedy said:


> I highly doubt that, afaik Transnistria is controlling it's borders.
> 
> It's not Russia


From what I know, apart from Sheriff Tiraspol playing in the Moldovan league, Moldova and Transnistria are in practice separate entities and have nothing in common politically.

Plus, of course, Transnistria isn't internationally recognized as a country and Moldova claims its territory.

Transnistria is weird in general - its whole economy is based on one company, the already mentioned Sheriff.


----------



## Junkie

stickedy said:


> I highly doubt that, afaik Transnistria is controlling it's borders.
> 
> It's not Russia


No, from what I have read.

Autonomous provinces/entities does not control international borders in the country they belong.

For example in Bosnia&Hercegovina the entity of RS is not controling the borders although this entity has its own police forces. Those who control are officials from the ministry of the interior of BiH and they have according emblem. 
But in some places you can spot the flag of RS waving along with the state flag.


----------



## italystf

Kpc21 said:


> In the following weeks - you are right, but I would be really careful with saying never. It really depends on the course of events. And on the people of Catalonia. In my opinion, their fight for independence is quite stupid, but after what Spain recently did to them, it's not unlikely... If they will be determined, they will become independent and recognized by majority of countries and Spain won't be able to stop that.


I doubt that other countries (well, except maybe Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia,...) will recognize the unilateral declaration of independence of Catalonia. Spain is a powerful country, part of EU and NATO and with most of the international community on its side. The international laws explicitly says that the 'self-determination rights' only apply to populations that are oppressed by colonial rules, military occupations or totalitarian regimes. It's clearly not the case of Catalan people, as they are part of a democratic country, are represented in its parliament, and enjoy a wide regional autonomy.
Catalonia could have received international recognition only if Spain was a dictatorship that killed Catalans like Serbs killed Albanians in the 1990s.


----------



## italystf

Kpc21 said:


> From what I know, apart from Sheriff Tiraspol playing in the Moldovan league, Moldova and Transnistria are in practice separate entities and have nothing in common politically.


San Marino plays in the Italian league, Monaco does in the French one. Triestina used to play in the Italian league also during the Free Territory of Trieste.


----------



## Eulanthe

stickedy said:


> I highly doubt that, afaik Transnistria is controlling it's borders.
> 
> It's not Russia


It's not quite so simple. Transnistria internally might be left to people living there, but the territory is very much under the control of Russia. For instance, Transnistria has huge gas debts to Russia, and Russia contributes a lot of cash both directly and indirectly to the territory.

Apparently Moldova and Ukraine jointly control Ukraine's border with Transnistria, so that Moldova can completely control who comes in and out of the territory.


----------



## MrAkumana

I live in Barcelona, don't support catalan separatists and I'm having a hard time restraining myself from going into political debate here. It's kind of annoying when others go off topic with border debates / political debates, and I don't want to be part of that.

But let me point out the current situation on everyday life: catalan goverment declaration of independence had no consecuence whatsover, it just got the local goverment removed for breaking the law. That's all. Not even local catalan police recognized the independece and they now completely follow Madrid's commands. All borders, airports, ports etc were always controled by national spanish police (Guardia Civil + Policia Nacional) and not even a single second there was a change on anything. Everything remains exactly as it was one week ago.


----------



## JanVL

CSerpent said:


> How does Walloon work with the German minority in the East? Is signage in German and how does that work with the French mentality in the rest of Walloon?


Sorry for bringing this topic back (in a complicated way  ). I just wanted to make some things clear when it comes to Belgium. 

Historically, the country is split in three different levels. There is the federal government, 3 Communities (for cultural purposes like education and health care) (Flemish, French and German) and 3 'Regions' (for economic reasons like economic policy, roads, infrastructure, ... ) (Flemish, Walloon and Brussels). 

This makes that on a federal level we have:
- The Federal Parliament (150 members)
- The Senate (74 members)
- The Federal Government

On a community and regional level (Flanders):
- The Flemish Parliament (124 members)
- The Flemish government

To save costs and increase efficiency, Flanders has combined the two into one parliament and government.

On a community level (French-speaking part):
- Parliament of the French-speaking Community (94 members, including 19 French-speaking members of the Brussels parliament)
- Government of the French-speaking Community

On a community level (Brussels):
- The Common Community Commission (For all people in Brussels that are not part entirely of one community)
- The Flemish Community Commission
- The French Community Commission 

Note 1: All these are a kind of parliament 

Note 2: the two communities mentioned above (Flemish government and parliament and French-speaking parliament and government have direct power to community-related issues in Brussels for Flemish or French citizens respectively) 

On a community level (German):
- The German parliament (25 members)
- The German government

On a regional level (Wallonia)
- The Walloon parliament (75 members)
- The Walloon government 

Note: the German speaking community is part of Wallonia when it comes to economic issues. 

On a regional level (Brussels)
- The Brussels Parliament (89 members) 
- The Brussels government 

The best thing? Each of the previous parliaments can issue laws which are of the same importance as a federal law or an other regional/community law. Of course, their respective competences are regulated in detail. 

It is that complicated that I initially forgot the Brussels government and parliament . We have 537 members of parliament in total (excluding the Brussels commissions). 

When it comes to roads: since it's an economic issue, roads in Flanders will be taken care of by the Flemish government, in Wallonia (and the German speaking part) by the Walloon government and in Brussels by the Brussels government. 

If you drive from Brussels to Liège for example there is some piece of motorway where you cross into Wallonia and Flanders alternatively, with the Flemish piece of motorway nicely modernised, followed by a few km's of old Walloon motorway and again a nice Flemish motorway, ... and so on.

Communities










Regions


----------



## Kpc21

italystf said:


> San Marino plays in the Italian league, Monaco does in the French one. Triestina used to play in the Italian league also during the Free Territory of Trieste.


Yes, but those are recognized countries.



MrAkumana said:


> I live in Barcelona, don't support catalan separatists and I'm having a hard time restraining myself from going into political debate here. It's kind of annoying when others go off topic with border debates / political debates, and I don't want to be part of that.
> 
> But let me point out the current situation on everyday life: catalan goverment declaration of independence had no consecuence whatsover, it just got the local goverment removed for breaking the law. That's all. Not even local catalan police recognized the independece and they now completely follow Madrid's commands. All borders, airports, ports etc were always controled by national spanish police (Guardia Civil + Policia Nacional) and not even a single second there was a change on anything. Everything remains exactly as it was one week ago.


Well, it makes sense as this "independence" was not really a sensible thing.


----------



## alserrod

Kpc21 said:


> Yes, but those are recognized countries.



and Andorran teams play in Spanish leagues.

Should have to check but I think only one out of their football teams plays in Spanish league... they make in a sort of "fifth league", one where 20 Western Catalonian teams play (there is a system to make weak leagues not to have long distance because their budget is tiny).

They have their own major (and second) football league. Winner will play European Champions' league (starting in the first leg). Last July, Andorran champions started against an Armenian team, lost 1-0 and later 1-1 in home, thus fired
Source (Santa Coloma team) http://es.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2018/matches/index.html#rd/2000877/1

And for international issues... just a logistic question... how to go from Andorra to Faroe Islands and conversely?. Because they had to play in the same group for world cup classification (they tied one match and was the first official point after 12 years, and later they won, and I think it was the first official match won in history)


But for basketball... Andorra has a very good basketball team with some of well known players. They play in the major Spanish league and every weekend, even Andorran team has to cross border, even a Spanish team has to reach Andorra. The only fact is there aren't Andorran referees.

Due to their position in league last year they are playing Eurocup basketball this year as Spanish representant (it is funny: Gran Canaria, Bilbao and Andorra.... for logistic reasons... I would prefer to go to play against Bilbao by far!!!)
Source http://www.eurocupbasketball.com/eurocup/competition/teams


But in anyway... by law, in Spain only Andorran teams are approved to play as foreing teams (once a Gibraltar team played with Andalusian teams... but they played always in a small stadium in Spain, they crossed border every weekend and booked with an address located in the boundary town, thus legal) and they have to belong to a regional federation (Andorran teams belongs to Catalan federation)

Should Catalonia wouldn't be a regional federation, teams couldn't play in Spanish leagues


I guess that a lot of international niceties will find if searching.

For instance, I remember some years ago when there was a strike at the beginning of league and disolved later. It was late August and impossible to find airline tickets so soon because barely overbooking. There was only second division matches, some of them between near cities ones but two of them, corner to corner (matches agains island teams were cancelled, I think). One Andalusian match had to go to Galicia and went through Portugal. Some km and inside Portugal in the south... and all north until crossing again border. A long journey by bus, but it was the shortest route.
Once Ceuta and Melilla had to play cup. I do not know it they were by bus crossing Morocco or taking an airplane, bus, ferry...


----------



## Junkie

volodaaaa said:


> Here is all you need to know
> http://bfy.tw/Eo4J


Vojvodina reminds of Moravia a province that will never become a country.


----------



## Kanadzie

Penn's Woods said:


> Germany’s occupied?
> Whatever.


I agree with you Penn

But there is still Ramstein Air Base


----------



## Penn's Woods

Kanadzie said:


> I agree with you Penn
> 
> But there is still Ramstein Air Base




I once heard a German train conductor say “Kaiserslautern - K-Town!”

Speaking only for myself, any time Europe wants us to leave them to defend themselves, it’s fine with me....


----------



## Nikkodemo

paradise at Tagus said:


>


----------



## Alex_ZR

During the recent session of the Serbian-Hungarian Economic Commission in Subotica, the opening of two new border crossings next year - Rastina near Sombor and Rabe on the triple border of Serbia, Hungary and Romania was announced.

Rastina-Bácsszentgyörgy 





































Source: https://pannonrtv.com/rovatok/gazdasag/tavaszra-megnyilik-rastina-bacsszentgyorgy-kozuti-hataratkelo


----------



## Junkie

^^
And we can see the Hungarian fence all along. This remind of the Cold War & Kadar's communism


----------



## Corvinus

Junkie said:


> ^^
> And we can see the Hungarian fence all along. This remind of the Cold War & Kadar's communism


You get the difference between locking in your own citizens (Kádár's communism) and preventing an uncontrolled mass entry/transit of foreigners without valid travel documents, don't you?

Republic of Macedonia erected the same kind of fence, for the very same reason, and very rightfully so.


----------



## italystf

Corvinus said:


> You get the difference between locking in your own citizens (Kádár's communism) and preventing an uncontrolled mass entry/transit of foreigners without valid travel documents, don't you?
> 
> Republic of Macedonia erected the same kind of fence, for the very same reason, and very rightfully so.


Moreover, this fence is temporary, since they will remove it when the border crossing will be operational and people with proper papers will be able to cross it.
No freedom of movement is limited, as before they build the road it wasn't possible to cross the border there anyway.


----------



## alserrod

Indonesian road, just Timor Leste some mettres ahead

https://www.google.es/maps/@-8.9785...6z-x-7fJmiVrXrxnvv6w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es

Does anyone wonder what does sign says?


----------



## Verso

^^ Warning of the border?


----------



## grykaerugoves

Does anyone know why Hungarys motorways are in such poor state? I remember about 5-6 years ago they were all in pristine condition.


----------



## Corvinus

Heavy wear caused by very heavy traffic (especially M1, but also M5 and M7). Current focus of road projects seems to be on Eastern Hungary, the western part appears somewhat neglected (M86 as only notable accomplished project), including repaving where necessary.


----------



## alserrod

Verso said:


> ^^ Warning of the border?


Guess it but surprised not fenced and no other surveillance

and seems to say more


----------



## volodaaaa

Verso said:


> ^^ Warning of the border?


It seems like an EU project plaque to me :lol::lol:


----------



## mappero

This is so calm EU/EEA (FIN/N) border crossing in the far north of Finland.
GSV
No one present there but CCTV operates on the spot


----------



## alserrod

Lol.... not far from there, look at here...

https://www.google.be/maps/@69.6766...4!1sEynSL2ydMhA-BxRkBVKmIw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Seems not to be worried about cars or people crossing border (no cameras, no booths) but worried about animals (fence and irons in the border that makes animal not crossing roads).
Have seen some of these pics in countryshire, just in a fenced area to avoid animals to go out... but first time on a border pass!!!!


----------



## Ingenioren

That's a reindeerfence, those are often at international borders, but also elsewhere. Land owners don't want anyone elses raindeer eating their grass and there may be disputes in court. 

Here is a "bridge" over the fence between Norway and Sweden:









This fence is inside Norway, it's clearly more reindeer has been eating on one side:


----------



## MattiG

mappero said:


> This is so calm EU/EEA (FIN/N) border crossing in the far north of Finland.
> GSV
> No one present there but CCTV operates on the spot


The border crossing road is not deserted: the AADT is about 620. Nuorgam is the northernmost village in the EU. The important thing is that there is an alcohol store, with huge sales figures. Norwegians buy more than 90% of the products.

There is a quite big food store for a village of 200 people, too. 95+ per cent of the clients are from Norway.


----------



## MattiG

Ingenioren said:


> That's a reindeerfence, those are often at international borders, but also elsewhere.


Basically, there are three ways to cross a reindeer fence:









Under









Over









Through

Variations exist:









Quite a common setup: Horizontal bars are detachable









Fence over troubled water









Bridge with horizontal bars, "ferist" in Norwegian. Reindeer do not enter.


----------



## Junkie

I have a question about communist Czechoslovakia and particularly the part where Danube meats Austria in Bratislava.
Were there any illegal crossings to the West from Bratislavi?


----------



## Attus

I'm old enough to remember Czechoslovak - Hungarian border crossing process. Personal control was not very strict. We (I'm a Hungarian citizen) did not need any visa to CS, and had a passport which was unlimited valid for travelling to five Eastern European communist countries (CS, GDR, PL, RO, BG). 
However, since there was a heavy lack of goods in Czechoslovakia, custom controls were very strict, up to the middle of the 90's (i.e. in the first years of independent Slovak Republic as well). For example a Czechoslovak custom officer let my bag open and when he found a piece of Deli chocolate (it's very delicious, I buy a lot even nowadays when I'm in CZ or SK) he told me I was not allowed to take it out from Czechoslovakia. It was one single piece, 35g. I can't remember the price back then, nowadays it's about 30-35 cents. 
OK, I ate it in front of him. It was allowed to eat it inside Czechoslovakia.


----------



## Junkie

Was the border between the Hungarian People's Republic and ČSSR fortified and electrified?


----------



## Eulanthe

The Czechoslovak/Czech/Slovak controls in the early 1990's were very much ridiculous. Later on, they calmed down a bit, but they could still be very annoying. They had a dreadful reputation among Polish travellers back then, because they would often fuss over traffic that was clearly in transit, even up until 2004. 

I remember several incidents well, including one Czech Customs guy who wasn't happy because I filled my car up before reaching the border. I asked him what regulation prevented it, and the grumpy so-and-so went on a rant about how we were using their roads without paying for them, blah blah blah. This was in 2003, and he took it quite badly when I told him (after being told to go) that he only had a year left of moaning before retirement anyway. 

Czech border police in comparison were always pleasant. After 2004, the lack of interest from Czech and Polish border police was remarkable. I remember one funny situation when crossing the border late at night at one small crossing, when the Czech guy was fast asleep and the Polish guy was barely awake - he just nodded his head without even bothering to look at my ID card.



Junkie said:


> Was the border between the Hungarian People's Republic and ČSSR fortified and electrified?


No, no point. Guarded, yes, and possibly fenced (I don't know about those two, but PL/CS definitely was fenced in some areas), but there was no need to use lethal force on internal socialist borders.


----------



## volodaaaa

Attus said:


> I'm old enough to remember Czechoslovak - Hungarian border crossing process. Personal control was not very strict. We (I'm a Hungarian citizen) did not need any visa to CS, and had a passport which was unlimited valid for travelling to five Eastern European communist countries (CS, GDR, PL, RO, BG).
> However, since there was a heavy lack of goods in Czechoslovakia, custom controls were very strict, up to the middle of the 90's (i.e. in the first years of independent Slovak Republic as well). For example a Czechoslovak custom officer let my bag open and when he found a piece of Deli chocolate (it's very delicious, I buy a lot even nowadays when I'm in CZ or SK) he told me I was not allowed to take it out from Czechoslovakia. It was one single piece, 35g. I can't remember the price back then, nowadays it's about 30-35 cents.
> OK, I ate it in front of him. It was allowed to eat it inside Czechoslovakia.


:lol::lol::lol: Good. If you want some Deli sticks, I have recently found some in Hungarian Tesco in Mosonmagyarovár


----------



## Kanadzie

Kpc21 said:


> A linguistic question: why bloc and not block? What's the semantic difference and why so?
> 
> In all context I always see the spelling: block, except for the politics and the Eastern Bloc.


Bloc in English is used for a political bloc (voting bloc, etc) Block with "k" is like a block of wood or something


----------



## Attus

Junkie said:


> Was the border between the Hungarian People's Republic and ČSSR fortified and electrified?


No. The western half of it were the Danube and Ipoly/Ipel' rivers, the eastern half was guarded but not fenced.


----------



## vespafrederic

Attus said:


> No. The western half of it were the Danube and Ipoly/Ipel' rivers, the eastern half was guarded but not fenced.


I guess you want to write Tisza not Danube...


----------



## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> The Czechoslovak/Czech/Slovak controls in the early 1990's were very much ridiculous. Later on, they calmed down a bit, but they could still be very annoying. They had a dreadful reputation among Polish travellers back then, because they would often fuss over traffic that was clearly in transit, even up until 2004.


It was early 1980's when I was traveling to Brno with one of my student colleagues to meet people at the technical university. We took a ferry from Helsinki to Gdańsk and then a train to Warsaw then to Přerov then to Brno. Entering Poland and Czechoslovakia was visa-free for Finnish Citizens. No problem at the PL-CS border. The Czechoslovakian frontier guards suddenly disappeared from our compartment, we looked each other and speculated what happens next. The frontier guards returned in 10 minutes, giving us entry forms written in Finnish.

During the return trip from Prague to Gdańsk there was an incident. The Polish frontier guards at the outward trip forgot to give us some very important exit coupon. Re-entering Poland was blocked, because our papers showed that were still were in Poland and nobody in Poland naturally cannot enter Poland. The frontier guards spoke Polish only, but the local people in the same sleeping car compartment translated. After some shouting in Polish, we were welcomed in Poland, with a number coupons and stamps.


----------



## alserrod

There's a sort of no-border. Several airports in the world are shared by two countries at least.

Here.... you go to Mulhouse. What do you want to do??? Going to France or Germany or going to Switzerland?










Road from Switzerland can be seen in google maps. No booths but no possibility to enter in France.


----------



## Attus

vespafrederic said:


> I guess you want to write Tisza not Danube...


Tisza as CS-HU border? In a very short section near Záhony... I suppose you're so young that for you it was not clear: ČSSR means Československá socialistická republika, i.e. the former Czechoslovakia.


----------



## MattiG

alserrod said:


> There's a sort of no-border. Several airports in the world are shared by two countries at least.
> 
> Here.... you go to Mulhouse. What do you want to do??? Going to France or Germany or going to Switzerland?
> 
> Road from Switzerland can be seen in google maps. No booths but no possibility to enter in France.


The Euroairport is in France, and Mulhouse is too. Not a big problem to solve.

As Switzerland has joined the Schengen area, not a big problem anyway. The Schengen area is not about customs operations. Therefore, there are the Swiss sector and the Swiss access road to enable domestic travel.


----------



## alserrod

MattiG said:


> The Euroairport is in France, and Mulhouse is too. Not a big problem to solve.
> 
> As Switzerland has joined the Schengen area, not a big problem anyway. The Schengen area is not about customs operations. Therefore, there are the Swiss sector and the Swiss access road to enable domestic travel.


Yeah.... but project started only between France and Switzerland in 1930, when Basel was much greater than Mulhouse and had barely options to enlarge their airport.

A binational airport started making able to go through France without entering the rest of territory but only parking and service roads.

If you go there... you may decide prior to buy ticket, which side will you take for getting out because customs will be different.

This is, a Paris-Mulhouse flight is national and do not have issues on border. A Paris-Basel is international. Nowadays it doesn't have issues but it is ready to have them.


And... weird but fares to one or other side can be different despite it is same plane, same airport... This is, you buy XXX-Mulhouse-Basel with 0 minutes stopping at Basel and different fares if only XXX-Mulhouse.



It is not the unique case. Geneva has another one (conversely, airport in CH, road to France). San Diego-Tijuana is to be built international. Some USA-Canada airport exists... they are quite small but they are in the middle of border.

Gibraltar has barely traffic nowadays but it is ready (and have had before crisis) for flights from inner Spain and free transit if passenger is not going to go to Gibraltar. A new terminal was built and shared.


After them I guess nearest airport to a border but nothing binational is Irun

https://www.google.es/maps/place/Ir...273ca9230!8m2!3d43.3380969!4d-1.7888483?hl=es

Later Sant Martin

https://www.google.es/maps/place/Is...a959820e!8m2!3d18.0708298!4d-63.0500809?hl=es

Brazil has some airports not far from border but in Iguazu there are two (AR and BR)
https://www.google.es/maps/@-25.6549178,-54.5285331,21813m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=es

(Brazilian one is quite near to border)


and obviously, any big city close to a border will have it...

La Paz
https://www.google.es/maps/@-16.5199593,-68.2545436,16318m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=es
(highest capital in the world)

Bratislava
https://www.google.es/maps/@48.1468918,17.139972,11471m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=es


and so on....


----------



## MattiG

alserrod said:


> Yeah.... but project started only between France and Switzerland in 1930, when Basel was much greater than Mulhouse and had barely options to enlarge their airport.
> 
> A binational airport started making able to go through France without entering the rest of territory but only parking and service roads.
> 
> If you go there... you may decide prior to buy ticket, which side will you take for getting out because customs will be different.
> 
> This is, a Paris-Mulhouse flight is national and do not have issues on border. A Paris-Basel is international. Nowadays it doesn't have issues but it is ready to have them.
> 
> And... weird but fares to one or other side can be different despite it is same plane, same airport... This is, you buy XXX-Mulhouse-Basel with 0 minutes stopping at Basel and different fares if only XXX-Mulhouse.


Yes, of course. I did not realize you were referring to the history.


----------



## Junkie

Attus said:


> Tisza as CS-HU border? In a very short section near Záhony... I suppose you're so young that for you it was not clear: ČSSR means Československá socialistická republika, i.e. the former Czechoslovakia.


It means the former _communist_ Czechoslovakia, since there is another, the first Czechoslovakia i.e. ČSR prior to the Soviets.


----------



## vespafrederic

Attus said:


> Tisza as CS-HU border? In a very short section near Záhony... I suppose you're so young that for you it was not clear: ČSSR means Československá socialistická republika, i.e. the former Czechoslovakia.


Yes you have right I was thinking about CCCP... :bash:


----------



## MattiG

alserrod said:


> This is, a Paris-Mulhouse flight is national and do not have issues on border. A Paris-Basel is international. Nowadays it doesn't have issues but it is ready to have them.


I had some spare time to have fun and to check if there is an option to buy a tickect from the Basel airport to the Mulhouse airport. No success on Google Flights, Amadeus nor Ebookers.

Then I tried to find an as ridiculous routing as possible between two airports close to each other. The engine was Amadeus. Vienna-Bratislava seems not to be possible, but Dresden-Prague was successful. The motorway route is about 150 km. The most expensive routing next Monday is provided by Swiss: Dresden-Düsseldorf-Zürich-Prague, EUR 2234. 

The route Esbjerg-Hamburg (270 km) is somewhat more exciting: The price for the longest duration goes to SAS: Esbjerg-Aberdeen-Oslo-Hamburg 47+ hours, overnight stopovers in both Aberdeen and Oslo. The most expensive routing is provided by Air France: Esbjerg-Aberdeen-Paris-Hamburg, 45+ hours including two overnight stops, EUR 2261.

Copenhagen-Malmö (40 km): All options are routed via Stockholm, with duration 4-6 hours. The top price is for SAS, EUR 786.

Finally, Amsterdam-Rotterdam (75 km) is quite interesting. British Airways wons the prices for the highest price and the longest duration. The most expensive route is over London with a transfer from Heathrow to City Airport, EUR 503. The longest routes are via Gatwick or Luton, overnight stop, and transfer to London City, 14+ hours of travel time. However, the extra price for the funniest itinerary is given to AccessRail. The train connection spends 6:51 hours to get from Rotterdam Centraal to Rotterdam Centraal via Bruxelles National, calling twice at Antwerpen and Mechelen.


----------



## italystf

Some years ago a guy showed that it was possible to book a low cost flight between a British city and Berlin, and then from Berlin to another British city, at a lower cost than a train between the two British cities.


----------



## JCamilo79

Crossing to San Diego through San Ysidro Port og Entry in Tijuana.


----------



## NorthCyprus

This is the border between Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and South Cyprus in Nicosia (Lefkosa). It was summer 2007 I guess.


----------



## alserrod

Ahead are they customs?.

Is it easy or free to move between both sides?


----------



## alserrod

Do not feed the troll!!!



Back to borders

Portalet/Pourtalet border E-F has been close for 4 days due to snow

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.8062...528&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es

(former booths from France looking to Spain)












Just in the middle of the border looking to Spain


----------



## Moravian

Border crossing: Czech Republic/Austria: Slavonice/Fratres, former railroad Slavonice - Waidhofen an der Ybbs, nowadays cycloroute "Thayarunde"


----------



## Attus

The Mária Valéra bridge was built in 1895 between Esztergom and Párkány. Slovakia has not existed back then, the bridge connected central and northern Hungary.
Mária Valéria híd by Attila Németh, on Flickr
25 years later Czechoslovakia was created, Párkány become a czechoslovak town, the Danube a border. The bridge became a border crossing. Later on (unfortunately I don't know the precise date) Párkány was named afer the famous Slovak poet, L'udovit Štúr. However, in Hungarian, it was and is called Párkány up till now. 
In World War II the bridge was exploded by German army. After the war the Czechoslovak government showed no interest in rebuilding it. But the remained parts, both end, were not destroyed so the bridge remained an accidental war memento more than fifty years long.

Esztergom bridge 1969 [GFDL (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html) or CC-BY-SA-3.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/)], by Wikipt (Own work), from Wikimedia Commons
There was a ferry service between Esztergom and Párkány. Ferry stations were only a few meters apart from the bridge. The border and custom facilities were in the Czechoslovak (after 1993 Slovak) side. 
I lived in Esztergom in the 90's and crossed the Danube several times by the ferry. Czechoslovak - Slovak customs were terrible... 
There used to be a sign on the bridge, in the Hungarian end: "Bridge connects", in Hungarian and Slovak ("Most spoji", "A híd összeköt"). It was quite sad.
Finally, the bridge was rebuilt in 2000-01. A photo from the Hungarian side:
Mária Valéria híd by Attila Németh, on Flickr
Both ends were refurbished, and three new parts were built. The new bridge is in the middle approx. 2 meters higher than the original one, letting more space for large ships. 
Mária Valéria híd by Attila Németh, on Flickr
Border facilities were built in the Slovak side, just like in the good ol' ferry times. Of course they have been out of use since 2007.
Párkány by Attila Németh, on Flickr
After reopening the bridge in 2001 border crossing traffic increased multiple times. In 2000 43,000 cars crossed the river (by ferry), five years later it was 1.7 million (on the bridge). Nowadays it's very common to see Slovak cars in Esztergom (usually NZ license plates) or Hungarian ones in Štúrovo. Both town centers are near to the bridge, from Esztergom center you can walk to Párkány center, through the bridge, in 15-20 minutes. There are no language issues: the majority of Štúrovo population is ethnically Hungarian, and usually Slovak people, too, speak Hungarian. 

The bridge from Hungary:
Mária Valéria híd by Attila Németh, on Flickr
The famous Esztergom cathedral from the bridge:
Esztergomi bazilika by Attila Németh, on Flickr
The border point is near to the middle of the bridge:
Szlovákia by Attila Németh, on Flickr
(The solid line is brigther in Hungary than in Slovakia )
Arriving in Slovakia:
Szlovák táblák by Attila Németh, on Flickr
Slovak speed limits:
Szlovák sebességhatárok by Attila Németh, on Flickr

The bridge from the Slovak side:
Mária Valéria híd by Attila Németh, on Flickr

In the opposite direction, leaving Štúrovo:
Esztergomi bazilika by Attila Németh, on Flickr
Entering the bridge:
Mária Valéria híd by Attila Németh, on Flickr
Crossing the border:
Magyarország by Attila Németh, on Flickr
Arriving to Esztergom:
Esztergom by Attila Németh, on Flickr
Hungarian signs:
Magyar táblák by Attila Németh, on Flickr


----------



## Nikkodemo

fidalgo said:


> A idade das fronteiras (data da 1a definição) - em inglês
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Mapa Maior e Completo* - https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4596/24556520177_d5a5b6d97a_o.png


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## bogdymol

People working in western Europe are finishing their winter holidays in Romania and are heading back to their workplaces. At the same time, many Romanians choose to go skiing in the Alps. The result is predictable:

Long waiting times are currently reported at Romania - Hungary border crossing at Nădlac/Nagylak:










If you think that going further west, at internal Schengen borders, will make the situation better, you are wrong. This is how it currently looks at the 2 major border crossings in western Hungary (border with Austria and with Slovakia):










^^ I drive this route once per month since 3 years ago, but I never seen such a traffic on Google Maps before. I drove the same route today, but I was able to avoid the queues as I used secondary roads both when crossing into Hungary, then through Slovakia and then into Austria. All on the most secondary roads possible with (almost) no traffic.

I curently see on Google Maps issues also at the borders Austria->Germany and Slovakia->Czech Republic, although not as extensive as at the above 2.


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## Verso

There was a 30-km-long queue between Slovenia and Croatia two weeks ago, but nothing mentionworthy yet this time.


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## Attus

hegyeshalom by Attila Németh, on Flickr


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## OulaL

^^ What happened here? Border checks in Austria?

What about crossing the border using the non-motorway, or Slovakian motorway?


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## bogdymol

^^ Border checks done by Austrians when entering from Hungary on both motorway and old road crossings. Due to very high amount of traffic, the queues get quite long.

If you drive through Slovakia on M15 - D2 - D4 - A6, you need to buy the Slovakian vignette for just 12 km of motorway (10 Euros, quite expensive for such a short distance). And there are still checks while entering Austria, however the queues are much shorter.

I drove yesterday on this route on secondary roads through Slovakia to avoid the long border queues and also to avoid the Slovakian vignette. However, even at that small border crossing between Slovakia and Austria, the Austrian police was conducting random checks (as there were no other cars in front of me and the police officers were bored, I got stopped, documents checked, then allowed to drive further). However, it was so much better and faster than to enter Austria directly from Hungary.


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## Kpc21

bogdymol said:


> ^^ Border checks done by Austrians when entering from Hungary on both motorway and old road crossings. Due to very high amount of traffic, the queues get quite long.


They are stilling doing that? Isn't it so that the migration crisis has stabilized and they have no longer reasons to do that? The EU still agrees for such a long break in applying the Schengen zone rules on that border?


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## bogdymol

Yes, they are still doing these checks since the migration crisis started. Not only Austria does it, but also Germany (at the borders with Austria). Both Austria and Germany have at installed some large tents where the provisional checks are made.

According to Schengen rules they were allowed to do this for 2 years, which expired in October or November (I think?) last year, but they were allowed for an extension. For how long? I don't know.


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## Zsolt_Tolnai

Yes, Denmark has the same procedure in Rødby. We were stopped as every car showed our passports little chit-chat and that.


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## cougar1989

*Current Temporarily Reintroduced Border Controls inside Schengen Area
​**Temporarily reintroduced border controls in the context of foreseeable events:*

*France* (1 November 2017 – 30 April 2018) persistent terrorist threat; all internal borders
*Austria *(12 November 2017 – 12 May 2018) security situation in Europe and threats resulting from the continuous significant secondary movements; land borders with Hungary and with Slovenia;
*Germany* (12 November 2017 – 12 May 2018) security situation in Europe and threats resulting from the continuous significant secondary movements; land border with Austria and flight connections from Greece;
*Denmark* (12 November 2017 – 12 May 2018) security situation in Europe and threats resulting from the continuous significant secondary movements; internal border with Germany;
*Sweden* (12 November 2017 – 12 May 2018) security situation in Europe and threats resulting from the continuous significant secondary movements; selected harbours in Police Regions South and West and at the Öresund Bridge;
*Norway* (12 November 2017 – 12 May 2018) security situation in Europe and threats resulting from the continuous significant secondary movements; ferry connections with DK, DE and SE;
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control_en


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## Kpc21

What does it mean "all internal borders" in case of France? I don't think they are doing checks at the borders between the departments.

Or just it's "all internal borders" in the context of the Schengen zone, the internal borders of the Schengen zone?


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## cougar1989

They mean the borders inside the Schengen Area, like Germany, Belgium and so on


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## OulaL

bogdymol said:


> If you drive through Slovakia on M15 - D2 - D4 - A6, you need to buy the Slovakian vignette for just 12 km of motorway (10 Euros, quite expensive for such a short distance). And there are still checks while entering Austria, however the queues are much shorter.


So you need the Slovakian vignette right at the border... no "free until first exit" policy as it is in, say, Czech Republic.


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## Verso

Nikkodemo said:


> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DShtXeeXUAAPaE9.jpg:large


The "red" part of the Slovenian-Croatian border was first defined already in 962 with the (re)creation of the Holy Roman Empire.


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## Corvinus

cougar1989 said:


> *Current Temporarily Reintroduced Border Controls inside Schengen Area
> ​**Temporarily reintroduced border controls in the context of foreseeable events:*
> 
> *France* (1 November 2017 – 30 April 2018) persistent terrorist threat; all internal borders


Just to recall, this is the country whose politicians were so outraged at the Hungarian Schengen *outer* border fence that "you don't even treat cattle that way".


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## volodaaaa

Needless to say that improved border guarding was an essential precondition for the schengen accession.


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## vitacit

i was controlled by austrians on the way from rajka (HUN) to deutsch jahrndorf (AUT) on sunday. we went to see border corner of three countries (SVK-AUT-HUN) and they stopped us in the middle of nowhere))) also, in december they had random checks in petrzalka (SVK) - berg (AUT) border crossing.


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## Nordic20T

I drove back home from Hungary to Switzerland on december 29. It was a very quiet drive, almost any trucks and very little traffic over all. 
I lost three minutes at Hegyeshalom, five minutes at Passau/Suben and then twenty (!) minutes at Au when entering Switzerland. It was around 9 PM and the officer had plenty of time...


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## italystf

Yesterday, a Google Maps mistake almost created a dipolomatic crisis between Italy and Slovenia.
Six Italians from Trieste, including a 9-months baby, have been detained for few hours by Slovenian police for illegal border crossing. They went to eat in a restaurant in the Croatian village of Zrenj, and then they set the GPS to go back to Trieste. The GPS led them through a gravel road that crossed a closed HR-SLO border crossing. They managed to cross it because the gate was open but were arrested by the Slovenian police on the other side. They were released after a 2,000€ fine and the driver's license has been revoked. Now the Italian consulate in Slovenia is dealing with that issue, but aparently the police acted according to the law.

http://ilpiccolo.gelocal.it/trieste...i-squestrati-in-slovenia-1.16329878?ref=fbfpi


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## Slovenia_

italystf said:


> Yesterday, a Google Maps mistake almost created a dipolomatic crisis between Italy and Slovenia.
> Six Italians from Trieste, including a 9-months baby, have been detained for few hours by Slovenian police for illegal border crossing. They went to eat in a restaurant in the Croatian village of Zrenj, and then they set the GPS to go back to Trieste. The GPS led them through a gravel road that crossed a closed HR-SLO border crossing. They managed to cross it because the gate was open but were arrested by the Slovenian police on the other side. They were released after a 2,000€ fine and the driver's license has been revoked. Now the Italian consulate in Slovenia is dealing with that issue, but aparently the police acted according to the law.
> http://ilpiccolo.gelocal.it/trieste...i-squestrati-in-slovenia-1.16329878?ref=fbfpi


Yes, slovenia police is very strick about that. I think fine is around 500 euros for crossing border outside border check points. And i think around 250 eur if u dont have your documents.
And in the moment the border is controlled more then usual, because of the migrations.
Last year (between january and november) they did catch 2000 people crossing border with croatia, thats 100% more like in 2016.


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## italystf

Slovenia_ said:


> Yes, slovenia police is very strick about that. I think fine is around 500 euros for crossing border outside border check points. And i think around 250 eur if u dont have your documents.
> And in the moment the border is controlled more then usual, because of the migrations.
> Last year (between january and november) they did catch 2000 people crossing border with croatia, thats 100% more like in 2016.


Yes, 500€ x 4 people = 2000€. The other two were in another car that hadn't cross yet.


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## Junkie

Croatia is so angry about the Slovenian hassles of Savudrija, and because Slovenia has no arguments to tackle the truth that this is Croatian territory it creates additional tensions in that region.


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## italystf

Please not again... I don't want this thread to be shut down again...

(I think that currently the migrant crisis is a bigger issue there than that silly territorial dispute).


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## g.spinoza

I don't understand. Isn't Croatia in Schengen? You should be able to cross wherever you like...


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## volodaaaa

g.spinoza said:


> I don't understand. Isn't Croatia in Schengen? You should be able to cross wherever you like...


Nope, Croatia is not in the Schengen area. Though I think this is kind of bullying despite being in line with law.


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## g.spinoza

Nordic20T said:


> I drove back home from Hungary to Switzerland on december 29. It was a very quiet drive, almost any trucks and very little traffic over all.
> I lost three minutes at Hegyeshalom, five minutes at Passau/Suben and then twenty (!) minutes at Au when entering Switzerland. It was around 9 PM and the officer had plenty of time...


I spent my holidays in Germany so I had to cross Switzerland 2 times. I was never stopped, the crossing at Schaffhausen was completely deserted... in Basel also we crossed quickly, but in the other direction (towards Switzerland) there was a long queue.
In Chiasso we were not stopped in either direction, but the traffic was so thick we queued nonetheless...


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## g.spinoza

volodaaaa said:


> Nope, Croatia is not in the Schengen area.


Ah, that explains. I used to be more informed about UE issues...


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## italystf

Croatia is not in Schengen yet, it's a Schengen candidate. It joined the Schengen Information System in 2017. A full Schengen membership is currently postponed due to the migrant crisis and the lax border enforcement especially with BiH.

Some gates at the border with Slovenia are left open to local farmers who own lands in both sides and have a written permission to cross at these points, but using those unguarded border crossings is forbidden to anyone else. Similar arangements for farmers existed also on the border between Italy and Yugoslavia (and later Slovenia, until it joined Schengen).


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## italystf

volodaaaa said:


> Nope, Croatia is not in the Schengen area. Though I think this is kind of bullying despite being in line with law.


Ok, it may sound bulling, but imagine being a policeman patrolling the border in a forest in the middle of the night and you see two cars in a place where they aren't supposed to be and you expect the worst (on the outer Schengen border illegal migrants, drug and human traffikers are daily matter). Its normal to become defensive, and put your hand close to your gun 'just in case'.
However they should phisically close off border crossings that are illegal to use (and maybe give keys to authorized people).


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## Junkie

italystf said:


> Please not again... I don't want this thread to be shut down again...
> 
> (I think that currently the migrant crisis is a bigger issue there than that silly territorial dispute).


First of all you post about some 'Italian family' that crossed on unmarked checkpoint so this is not for this thread. 
Second what has the 'migrant crisis' are you even talking about? I am living where migrants literally passed in front of me. The crisis is over.

And third Slovenia decided to block Croatia joining any unions because of that dispute, so its not just a small thing. Very 'European'.


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## kreden

italystf said:


> Ok, it may sound bulling, but imagine being a policeman patrolling the border in a forest in the middle of the night and you see two cars in a place where they aren't supposed to be and you expect the worst (on the outer Schengen border illegal migrants, drug and human traffikers are daily matter). Its normal to become defensive, and put your hand close to your gun 'just in case'.
> However they should phisically close off border crossings that are illegal to use (and maybe give keys to authorized people).


Exactly. We may not see it, but the police encounter traffickers crossing the border illegally on a regular basis and if they see two foreign cars crossing the border in the forest in the middle of the night, it's understandable they will be very cautious.


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## volodaaaa

Sorry for not being exact. IMHO, guarding a border line is not bullying. Capture the trespassers is not either. 

But once the police find out the consequences, they should be given some symbolic fine, not 1.000 €. It is way too much for EU citizens.


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## MattiG

volodaaaa said:


> Sorry for not being exact. IMHO, guarding a border line is not bullying. Capture the trespassers is not either.
> 
> But once the police find out the consequences, they should be given some symbolic fine, not 1.000 €. It is way too much for EU citizens.


Goverments typically follow a strict policy to illegal border crossing. The default fine for someone travelling from Helsinki to Tallinn without proper travel documents, is about 750 euros for an average-income citizen. 

If someone tries to cross the Finnish-Russian border on the Finnish side, a substantial loss of money and time can be expected. It implies "managed" travelling to the police station, and interesting discussions with the police officers. If the same happens on the Russian side, best to call to the boss and apply for a two-months holiday.

Last summer, two German morons walked from Finland to Russia for six minutes. They were quite upset when the Finnish police arrested them next day, kept them two hours in a cell and transported them 150 kilometers to Imatra for the interview, which lasted for a whole day. They criticized the process "because on the Russian side, a 300 euro bribe to the frontier guards would have solved the case". The morons said to the local newspaper that they will sue Finland for bad treating of German citizens, but nothing has heard afterwards.


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## Junkie

Some countries have long land borders like Finland and Russia? So I guess its VERY easy just to pass it illegally considering its unguarded length. But we must distinct here between illegal immigration and refugees from the Middle East and curiosity 'to see' the other side with your identification documents.


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## MattiG

(..) deleted double posting


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## MattiG

Junkie said:


> Some countries have long land borders like Finland and Russia? So I guess its VERY easy just to pass it illegally considering its unguarded length.


The Finnish-Russian border is 1340 kilometers in length, and no millimeter of it is unguarded.

There is no fence preventing from entering the border, but about everyone tampering the border will be seen and arrested.


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## Junkie

1340 km in length that has to be the longest land border in Europe. That is massive. How it's even guarded considering the conditions there up to the north?


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## MattiG

alserrod said:


> I have to hold an ID card (ok, I haven't, providing police can identify me... should they cannot, I will go to a police station just to be identified... and really, prefer to hold it instead of losing time). Therefore, it doesn't matter if Schengen requires holding ID card anywhere... because I hold it always
> 
> (in addition, to pay with visa card or so, it must be shown)


The question was not whether the people must carry the ID card or not. It was about what is the Schengen countries' *default* policy to accept foreign citizen's travel documents.


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## volodaaaa

Since the age of 15, all citizens are obligated to carry their IDs.

But I have never been asked to show my ID while paying with my bank card. It would make the operation incredibly long. Moreover, transfers under 20 € (two consecutive) are done without any authorization - I just place my card onto the device. The third transfer must be authorized by PIN.

About the sign process while paying with a bank card - I have only encountered in Austria. But not always.


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## eeee.

Tenjac said:


> Russians would not agree.


Because of Abchasia and South Ossetia? That would be 16 neighbours.


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## Eulanthe

MattiG said:


> Goverments typically follow a strict policy to illegal border crossing. The default fine for someone travelling from Helsinki to Tallinn without proper travel documents, is about 750 euros for an average-income citizen.


Is it actually possible? I thought the ferry companies were checking everyone before entering the sea-side part of the terminals, at least in Tallinn. 

But now that you say that, I flew recently from Tallinn to Warsaw without an ID check.

Polish fines are much lower, no more than 125 Euro or so for crossing without a valid travel document. In practice, they won't fine you as long as you have some way of showing who you are, even a photocopy.


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## Kpc21

I wasn't sure how it is with carrying the IDs in Poland and it seems - no, it's not obligatory. You are obliged to possess an ID but not to carry it with you. Although it might be useful if the police wants to verify your identity. If you don't have the document with you, they are allowed to take you to the police station (or to your home where you left it). However, it will happen rather only if they suspect you in any way.

I usually carry it with me while going out of home - but I never had a situation in which I would really need it, apart from the cases when I needed it for some formalities, like receiving a registered letter or a package from the post office.

Never have I got it checked while paying by card. Actually, it even happened to me that one of my parents borrowed me his bank card to pay for the shopping. Although if they checked that it's not my personal card, I couldn't do the payment. But normally, the cashiers don't check it.

If I am not mistaken, it's obligatory to have an ID or a driving licence with you while riding a bicycle - because they are the documents entitling you to that. Unless you are under 18 - then, the ID is not enough and you must have so called "cycling card" - which you usually can get in the 4th year of the primary school. Although I haven't heard about enforcing this rule in practice.

Also on public transport if you travel without paying for the ticket, you are obliged to present any identification document (not necessarily an ID, might be e.g. a school ID) to the inspector, so that he can give you a "fine" (which is actually not a fine in the legal sense, but an administrative fee, kind of a "very expensive bus ticket"). If you don't do it (no valid ticket and no document), the public transport inspectors are allowed to hold you - usually to the terminal stop of the bus or tram, to where they call the police, so that they can verify your identity.


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## Junkie

eeee. said:


> Because of Abchasia and South Ossetia? That would be 16 neighbours.


I did not posted any wrong information except for the fact that Russia disputes the sovereignty of Ukraine. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are separatist regions of Russia and they consider them as enclaves, rather than countries.

The staggering number for Russia is that it borders a total of 20,241 km of land borders (!)
Out of which they border Kazakhstan by more than 7 thousand and China by more than 5 thousand kilometers.


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## Boltzman

^^ Your posts are quite misleading, not to mention you mix politics with a more aseptic topic as a mere border crossing.

Internationally it is recognized Russia borders 14 countries. You haven't even listed your 15 bordering countries. So stop messing up and stick to a widely accepted point of view.


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## alserrod

volodaaaa said:


> Since the age of 15, all citizens are obligated to carry their IDs.
> 
> But I have never been asked to show my ID while paying with my bank card. It would make the operation incredibly long. Moreover, transfers under 20 € (two consecutive) are done without any authorization - I just place my card onto the device. The third transfer must be authorized by PIN.
> 
> About the sign process while paying with a bank card - I have only encountered in Austria. But not always.


Sometimes matter of traditions, sometimes by law.

I have a touchless credit card and joined in the mobile phone.

For cash dispensers it is enough to get into machine my credit card a, use PIN and ask for money (or other operations)

To pay... it would be weird to be requested to sign... that depends more on card than on shops. But I had one card where I asked to sign always instead of PIN, just thought I would be safer

Usually, inserting in the machine the credit card and dialing PIN. Shop can or cannot ask for ID card... but they could be in problems if fraud. Obviously, you are encouraged not to say your PIN and will be your fault. This is, only fraud if it was stolen, asked by force your PIN and used within 24h or before you cancel it. Not very often at all... but would be shop's fault because they must check identity.

In addition, almost all shops machines and credit cards are changing to touchless. That means no need to insert in machine, just approach to machine. Usually up to 20 euro they do not ask for PIN. In those cases I use to ask for bill copy, just to check amount was correct. Banks and shops prefer to afford risk of fraud and be faster with operations (over 20 euro, PIN requested)

Finally, this week I have used my mobile. Joining credit card, just approach mobile to machine. I set to ask in my mobile PIN over 10. Dialed and payed. I do not know if they should ask for ID card. In the bank bill it appears it was payed with mobile, not card and in the shop, they knew my given name. It is a shop I go often.


Sorry for off-topic, it was just a hint about how in Spain it is so needed to hold your ID card. There are other ways to need it.

For instance... I do not know nowadays (if when 12 or 16) but when I was child, to have primary school title ID number was requested. Thus, asking first ID card when 13
To request to entry in music schools (age 7) you may fill child ID number
To play any "official sport" (never mind if handball, football or whatever, but any sport managed by an official federation) it is mandatory to fill ID number (I reckon it is for sport accident insurance)
And... not nowadays by a court decission but some years ago some flight companies requested to hold ID card for any children even in domestic flights .


They are only samples about how an ID card is so needed and, as consequence, no people wonders to carry any document in Schengen area


Sorry for OT


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## Kpc21

In Poland you just give your PESEL number in such situations - a national identification number which is assigned to every citizen. You don't have to have an ID card.

At school, an ID is needed only at the very end when you are passing the national exam after the high school that entitles you to apply to the university or any other higher education institution. On all the earlier stages, the school ID is enough.

Until now, almost all the students passed that exam after getting 18 and from the age of 18 you are obliged to have an ID. So everyone, basically, has it.

But some time ago, they tried to shift the age of going to primary school from 7 to 6. The students that went to primary school at the age of 6 will be passing those after-high-school exams at the age of 17, so they will have to get their IDs earlier.

Before, there were rare cases when a talented child could get a psychologist statement that it can start the school earlier.

And the idea of going to school at the age of 6 was not really good as many children at this age are still not prepared to follow fixed schedules, do many things on their own and so on. So, if I remember well, they finally didn't do this shift at all (the transition period in which it was voluntary for the parent to send their child to school at the age of 6 did not end) and now they are returning to the system with 7-years-olds going to the first class.

Before the first class of school, there is also one obligatory year of kindergarten that is supposed to prepare the child to school (so called "zeroth class"). In the areas where there is not many kindergartens, e.g. in the countryside, kindergarten classes for the 6-years-olds are organized at primary schools.

And as I remember my "zeroth class", we had some basics of reading and writing as well as very simple mathematical calculations (like addition of numbers up to 10) in it. Personally, I could already read before that, so it was a little bit weird for me, but still, I couldn't write using the standard handwritten "font", only draw the capital letters like in the print - so this was new.

But we are going even more off the topic. To return to it, in Poland, the children below 18 may get an ID and it's useful mainly for travelling within the EU. You can get a passport as well, but it's more trouble. For the passport you have to pay a few dozens of zł and you have to go to a bigger town or city where there is the proper office, the ID is for free and you get it in your municipality.

And one other thing that happened to be quite important was that for a child, if I remember well, over 13, to get a passport, the signatures of both parents are required, but to get an ID, the signature of one of the parents is sufficient, which may be useful e.g. if the parents are divorced and it's not so easy to contact one of them.

Another use of an ID below 18 practiced by some is misleading the seller at the store that they are over 18 so that they can buy alcohol. It sometimes happens that when the seller sees that the person has an ID, he automatically assumes he must be over 18 (because in the past, it was practically unmet or even impossible to have an ID below 18) and sells the booze, without checking the birth date on it.

By the way, when were the paper booklet-form IDs in your countries replaced with the ones in a card format? In Poland, they started issuing the IDs in a credit card format in 2001 and the transition period of the ID exchange ended in 2007. Before, it was a booklet that looked like that:










Like so looked the main page with the personal data (this one is the first one of one of Polish celebrities):










But there were also some other pages for introducing the family, the employer and so on.

All the entries were handwritten - till the change to plastic cards in 2001.


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## alserrod

In Spain... ferry companies request ID card because insurance issues to all passengers, thus babies living in islands have them or would be isolated.

Honestly, I do not remember when my last passport expired. Have traveled always within Schengen area (plus Andorra where it is enough Spanish, French and other ID cards) and haven't worried about that issue.

In addition, for ID card for an under-18 it is enough for a father/mother agreement but for passport, both parents must sign (there is a procedure when it is impossible to go together at same time. Most of them are delivered only in the morning and maybe one can go, sign agreement and later the second one go with child and make it).

Getting out from Spain (for under-18) without passport is allowed providing that:

- hold ID card instead of passport (despite most of exits are without custom control)
- have a special temporary permission signed by both parents.... or travel with both parents at same time


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## Alex_ZR

Kpc21 said:


> By the way, when were the paper booklet-form IDs in your countries replaced with the ones in a card format? In Poland, they started issuing the IDs in a credit card format in 2001 and the transition period of the ID exchange ended in 2007.


Identity card type issued by SFR Yugoslavia and FR Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro), being replaced by plastic card in 2008, dismissed in 2016:


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## darko06

In Slovenia and Croatia plastic ID cards were issued from the middle of 1970es, FYI. The rest of former state was issuing ID cards as booklets, SLO and HR not after the 1970es.

EDIT: these cards were not in the form of banking cards as today, they were bigger, practically DIN A6 format hard paper transparently plastified on both sides. Probably some Slovenian forum member have a picture of it.

Just found some Serbian plastified ID card from the 1960es:










So dear Great Becskerek guy, at least try not to spread false informations here.


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## darko06

You all may learn from this small example how the mess the old Federation was. In Belgrade authorities issued a document where the form is in Cyrillic but the data in Latin script.


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## Alex_ZR

darko06 said:


> So dear Great Becskerek guy, at least try not to spread false informations here.


I was talking about Serbia as a part of SFRY and FRY, booklets were being issued from the 80s.


----------



## darko06

Sorry friend, but you stated:

Identity card type issued by SFR Yugoslavia ...

which sounds just like everyone would infer: by the SFRY as a whole.


----------



## Kpc21

Was it indeed the A6 format, or A7?

Because A6 would be not really handy to carry.

The format of e.g. the contemporary passports, or the former booklet Polish IDs, is A7 or close to A7.

I checked it with a Polish car registration certificate - and it actually has the A7 format - I folded an A4 sheet of paper three times and it matches it. Actually, it's triple A7 folded two times, so it creates the A7 format.

Isn't it also so in Germany that their IDs have the A7 format instead of the credit card one?


----------



## darko06

Kpc21 said:


> Was it indeed the A6 format, or A7?
> 
> Because A6 would be not really handy to carry.
> 
> The format of e.g. the contemporary passports, or the former booklet Polish IDs, is A7 or close to A7.
> 
> I checked it with a Polish car registration certificate - and it actually has the A7 format - I folded an A4 sheet of paper three times and it matches it. Actually, it's triple A7 folded two times, so it creates the A7 format.
> 
> Isn't it also so in Germany that their IDs have the A7 format instead of the credit card one?


It was DIN A7 indeed, I made a mistake. Thanks for correcting me.


----------



## cougar1989

> Isn't it also so in Germany that their IDs have the A7 format instead of the credit card one?


Until the 30th October 2010 we had only these ID cards at Germany.








These ID cards are valid until 29th October 2020.
From he 1st November 2010 are these offered. It costs 28,80€; for younger people under 24 22,80€. People over 16 need to have an ID card. Since summer 2015 I have the new ID card.


----------



## Kpc21

And how is it with the sizes? Is the old one the A7 format and the new one the credit card format?

And how is it with the car registration certificates in Germany? Because when I checked it on Google Images, I couldn't really realize how it looks like.


----------



## Eulanthe

This is perhaps interesting - it's of the temporary barge river crossing in Zupanja which was installed after the conflicts ended, with the Croatian checkpoint visible.


----------



## Kanadzie

Erika still looks pretty good but somehow her birthplace has changed quite a distance :lol:


----------



## eeee.

Junkie said:


> I did not posted any wrong information except for the fact that Russia disputes the sovereignty of Ukraine. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are separatist regions of Russia and they consider them as enclaves, rather than countries.


I asked you to stop to write idiotic things. You don't even know what an enclave is. So please, just stop.


----------



## cougar1989

> And how is it with the sizes? Is the old one the A7 format and the new one the credit card format?
> 
> And how is it with the car registration certificates in Germany? Because when I checked it on Google Images, I couldn't really realize how it looks like.


OLD ID = A7
NEW ID = credit card format

car registration is also A7.


----------



## Junkie

Eulanthe said:


> This is perhaps interesting - it's of the temporary barge river crossing in Zupanja which was installed after the conflicts ended, with the Croatian checkpoint visible.


This is possibly Županja → Orašje. I think that bridge over Sava is a boat, because the bridge wasnt built to Republika Srpska.



eeee. said:


> I asked you to stop to write idiotic things. You don't even know what an enclave is. So please, just stop.


Russian enclave is Transdnistria for example. My posts are legitimate, if you dont want to read my posts, its easy hint for you, skip them.


----------



## Kpc21

Transnistria is a part of Moldova that claims to be independent. And while it's quite pro-Russia, it's actually practically managed by one company, to which almost all types of business in this country belong - Sheriff. 

By the way, Transnistria still has the sickle and hammer on its flag and in its coat of arms  So equally, you could say it's still a part, or a remnant of the Soviet Union. But this would be rather far from truth, same as saying it's a part of Russia. Russia doesn't claim it.

They actually want to become a part of Russia and they asked Russia for annexation in 2014, but Russia did not do that.

So you definitely can't say Russia claims this territory. Russia doesn't want it.

Even the football club of Sheriff Tiraspol plays in the Moldovan league, not in the Russian one.

You can't even say it's a communist country (which would make some sense looking at its flag and coat of arms), as the business is dominated there by one private company.

Transnistria isn't even recognized by Russia as a country - the only "countries" that recognize it are: Abkhazia, Republic of Artsakh and South Ossetia.


----------



## volodaaaa

Junkie said:


> This is possibly Županja → Orašje. I think that bridge over Sava is a boat, because the bridge wasnt built to Republika Srpska.
> 
> 
> 
> Russian enclave is Transdnistria for example. My posts are legitimate, if you dont want to read my posts, its easy hint for you, skip them.


That would be an exclave not enclave. Enclave is for example San Marino from the Italian point of view.

And you are absolutely wrong. Russia claims no such land.


----------



## Junkie

I understand you both, but what I want to say is that Russia is supporting the government of Transnistria with money and free heating gas. That said, although politically they are still bond to Russia.
We have been talking here but there is a border checkpoint between Moldova and Transnistria. The same as in Geogria with South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Passing these 'borders' I think you have to have special Russian permissions.


----------



## Kpc21

To go from Moldova to Transnistria you don't need any Russian permissions. A bus from Chisinau to Tiraspol goes even more frequently than every half an hour - so there must be lots of people moving or commuting on this route. If you don't plan to stay in Transnistria for longer than 10 hours, a passport is enough to cross the border from Moldova. 

http://postimg.org/image/j25vy6v7l/ - actually, it looks like the most frequent bus connection from Chisinau


----------



## OulaL

Boltzman said:


> ^^ Your posts are quite misleading, not to mention you mix politics with a more aseptic topic as a mere border crossing.
> 
> Internationally it is recognized Russia borders 14 countries. You haven't even listed your 15 bordering countries. So stop messing up and stick to a widely accepted point of view.


Norway, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, People's Republic of China, Mongolia, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Japan, United States. That actually makes 16.


----------



## OulaL

Funny fact: if you take Japan's point of view, then Japan and Russia are not neighbours: there are international waterways between Hokkaido and Sakhalin, as well as between Southern Kuril Islands and Northern Kuril Islands, so those wouldn't count as borders.

However, if you take Russia's point of view, as it is recognised by most countries, then Southern Kuril Islands belong to Russia; and there is no international waterway between them and Hokkaido.

Anyway, if you count the maritime border with the United States but not with Japan, then you'll get 15.


----------



## Eulanthe

Junkie said:


> This is possibly Županja → Orašje. I think that bridge over Sava is a boat, because the bridge wasnt built to Republika Srpska


I think it's not in the same place as the current crossing, though I'm not certain of it. But yes, it's a boat crossing, not a bridge at this time. 

There was a bridge there in Yugoslav times, but it was destroyed during the wars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0nIXjP1gs8

An interesting video here showing how the border crossing looked between Bosnia-Hercegovina and Croatia, just shortly after the Republic of Serbian Krajina had collapsed. An interesting note from history is that the sign on the border refers to the Republic of Bosnia and Hercegovina, which (depending on your interpretation) was only to exist for either a few more months, or until 1997.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OE42pFBXyA

Another interesting video here, this time between the wartime Republika Srpska and Yugoslavia. 

And finally, between Croatia and Montenegro:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzkW8unBFW8

This one is especially interesting as it shows the old controls on the Yugoslav side of the border. What's especially interesting here is that it shows how relations were relatively normal between Yugoslavia and Croatia here - the border is closed, but not particularly fortified.


----------



## tfd543

Cool videos. Thnx for sharing. AP is really nice to show authentic footage around the world. How frequent was it to bribe the border officers compared to the time nowadays? I love the sequence when the guys are gathered around a table at the petrol station drinking coffee.


----------



## Junkie

Eulanthe said:


> An interesting video here showing how the border crossing looked between Bosnia-Hercegovina and Croatia, just shortly after the Republic of Serbian Krajina had collapsed. *An interesting note from history is that the sign on the border refers to the Republic of Bosnia and Hercegovina*, which (depending on your interpretation) was only to exist for either a few more months, or until 1997.


In SFRY, BiH was independent socialist republic within the Constitution of SFRY. After SLO and HR declared independence in 1991 it was shortly follow by MK and then by BiH. 
The thing is the refferendum was boycotted by the Serbs and war starter. So I say this because during the war actually BiH was Republic considering the fact that it had the borders that were internationally recognized.
The European Community *recognized* BiH, many today in the Balkan say that this was the mistake that triggered the war. 

An no, after the Dayton Agreement which was signed in December 1995, BiH became federal parliamentary republic with two ethnic entities. 

Also the flag is of the Bosnian Muslims if you notice, since the new flag was designed according to Dayton and the old socialist republic of Bosnia had the SFRY flag on a red ground, unlike the other republics, which had their own. Can you even guess why?


----------



## volodaaaa

Maritime borders are sometimes tricky for example Italy and Croatia. Also Slovakia possesses some tiny area in the middle of the Pacific ocean so who knows who we border to.


----------



## bogdymol

volodaaaa said:


> Also Slovakia possesses some tiny area in the middle of the Pacific ocean so who knows who we border to.


What??? :nuts:


----------



## CrazySerb

^^
Indeed....

https://spravy.pravda.sk/domace/cla...iku-nas-stalo-uz-viac-ako-5-milionov-dolarov/


----------



## Junkie

Kpc21 said:


> Republic of Artsakh


Is this 'republic' the Armenian enclave in Azerbaijan? But I've read out they recently changed their name from Nagorno-Karabakh Republic 
Btw I think Russia recognize this as a country...


----------



## Kpc21

Junkie said:


> Btw I think Russia recognize this as a country...


Maybe - but it doesn't change that no internationally recognized country (including Russia) recognizes Transnistria as a country.

We can discuss whether Kosovo is a country or not, but in case of Transnistia, it's obvious it isn't, as even Russia, even though it supports it, it doesn't recognize it internationally.

Nice to know that Slovakia has an oversees property. Poland has no colonies at all (although Madagascar was supposed to become one one time in the history - but our people didn't succeed with that), what we only have is one polar scientific station in Antarctica.


----------



## haddockman

Amazing the carry on there.


----------



## Tamerlan.

volodaaaa said:


> Maritime borders are sometimes tricky for example Italy and Croatia. Also Slovakia possesses some tiny area in the middle of the Pacific ocean so who knows who we border to.





Kpc21 said:


> Maybe - but it doesn't change that no internationally recognized country (including Russia) recognizes Transnistria as a country.
> 
> We can discuss whether Kosovo is a country or not, but in case of Transnistia, it's obvious it isn't, as even Russia, even though it supports it, it doesn't recognize it internationally.
> 
> Nice to know that Slovakia has an oversees property. Poland has no colonies at all (although Madagascar was supposed to become one one time in the history - but our people didn't succeed with that), what we only have is one polar scientific station in Antarctica.


Poland is also part of Interoceanmetal

http://www.iom.gov.pl/


----------



## italystf

Border crossing between People's Republic of China and the Portoguese colony of Macau in 1952

4-8-52- Red China Border at Macao-China (2) by Found Slides, su Flickr

4-8-52- Red China Border at Macao-China by Found Slides, su Flickr


----------



## alserrod

No bikes, no pedestrians, no .... but no cars and border crossing too (border is in the middle of river)







Edit, found, this is the point in Portugal where it finish


----------



## Usman ali

*Pakistan-China Border*

Picture from Pakistani side.

Khunjarab pass by Abdul Qadir Memon, on Flickr


----------



## alserrod

Are they too many issues to deliver before crossing?


----------



## Usman ali

^^Here's a guide for a normal individual on how to cross from pakistan into china, it'll surely be different for commercial vehicles.

https://www.lostwithpurpose.com/pakistan-china-border-crossing/


----------



## RipleyLV

Kpc21 said:


> The Slovak trip is shorter, it starts in Cerveny Klastor and ends in Lesnica.


I can confirm this. As last year I took a ride on Dunajec river from the Slovak side. The starting point was in Červený Kláštor and the ending was right before the PL border (Lesnica).


----------



## volodaaaa

Kpc21 said:


> .


I was in Poland - once. We had a field trip to Červený Kláštor and there was a brand new pedestrian bridge to Poland. So we went there, bought a pack of Krówky and returned :lol: It counts, so hence my signature :lol:


----------



## Kpc21

I wonder how those trips looked like before Schengen, especially in the communist times. It's an old tradition, after all. Originally, they used those rafts for transporting goods (ok, in those times, there was probably no border following the river), later (definitely long before Schengen) it became a tourist attraction.


----------



## Palance

alserrod said:


> Are they too many issues to deliver before crossing?


Change from driving on the left to driving on the right side


----------



## Penn's Woods

Palance said:


> Change from driving on the left to driving on the right side




You build a half-Turcot at every crossing.


----------



## Eulanthe

Kpc21 said:


> I wonder how those trips looked like before Schengen, especially in the communist times. It's an old tradition, after all. Originally, they used those rafts for transporting goods (ok, in those times, there was probably no border following the river), later (definitely long before Schengen) it became a tourist attraction.


Probably originally limited to PL/CS/SK citizens, then later opened to the 30 or so countries that were considered migration-safe in the later years. 

No idea if they were running during the PRL, but I have my doubts, given the restrictions in place on other border areas such as in Karkonosze. But if they were, probably they were run by 'trusted' people so to speak and probably required advance booking.

It's always one of the strangest things in border history - controls were tough on the PL/CZ border in the early to mid 1990's, yet there were plenty of tourist border crossings that were often unmanned.


----------



## Kpc21

Maybe it was just impractical to smuggle goods using mountain trails and it was better to risk on normal road crossings.


----------



## Kanadzie

volodaaaa said:


> I was in Poland - once. We had a field trip to Červený Kláštor and there was a brand new pedestrian bridge to Poland. So we went there, bought a pack of Krówky and returned :lol: It counts, so hence my signature :lol:


I did basically same when I went to Mexico from California
US border guard basically waved me back in :lol:


----------



## ScraperDude

Alex_ZR said:


> I know there is Velké Slemence (SK) - Mali Selmenci (UA) which is pedestrian-only crossing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I watched the documentary on this. Sad and bizarre situation for the locals and village.


----------



## zsimi80

ScraperDude said:


> Alex_ZR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know there is Velké Slemence (SK) - Mali Selmenci (UA) which is pedestrian-only crossing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I watched the documentary on this. Sad and bizarre situation for the locals and village.
> 
> 
> 
> And the most of the population are Hungarians.
Click to expand...


----------



## Junkie

Can they cross with some local cross border papers? Without much hassle? These kind of things exist in some countries and also crossing for local people only.


----------



## italystf

Syria - Israel border in 2012
The border crossing is open to UN traffic only and for humanitarian reasons.
There are no diplomatic relationships between the two countries.
The border exists only _de facto_, as _de jure_ it's Syria on both sides (Israel is occupying the Golan Heights since 1967, although the international community doesn't recognize it).


----------



## Penn's Woods

Last Sunday’s New York Times travel section had several articles (from the tourist point of view, mostly) about points on the U.S./Mexican border. Nogales, Tijuana, Matamoros, Ciudad Juárez.... Worth a read. (I don’t have links; read my mother’s print copy.)


----------



## Eulanthe

Junkie said:


> Can they cross with some local cross border papers? Without much hassle? These kind of things exist in some countries and also crossing for local people only.


Yeah, Ukraine has agreements with Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania. 

The crossing there is EEA/UA only. Interestingly, the only road crossing open to everyone is at Vyšné Nemecké - Užhorod. 



kpc21 said:


> Maybe it was just impractical to smuggle goods using mountain trails and it was better to risk on normal road crossings.


Quite a few were located in populated areas though. For instance, in Karvina (CZ) - there were several places where you could easily smuggle things in the 1990's.


----------



## volodaaaa

volodaaaa said:


> I was in Poland - once. We had a field trip to Červený Kláštor and there was a brand new pedestrian bridge to Poland. So we went there, bought a pack of Krówky and returned :lol: It counts, so hence my signature :lol:



My only visit to Poland on map
https://goo.gl/maps/SkLxUcVQrJq



But we are planning a weekend trip to Warsaw with my wife this year. So I should take Poland more seriously on my travel map


----------



## Junkie

Is that a legal crossing into another sovereign territory? If not how come can you count it as a legal stay?


----------



## Kpc21

You could walk or cycle along Dunajec and visit Szczawnica. A nice town, definitely more interesting than Sromowce.


----------



## stickedy

Junkie said:


> Is that a legal crossing into another sovereign territory? If not how come can you count it as a legal stay?


In Schengen area there are no border crossings anymore


----------



## Kpc21

Junkie said:


> Is that a legal crossing into another sovereign territory? If not how come can you count it as a legal stay?


In such a way that he is an EU citizen and stays within the EU. As long as he has his ID document with him, this is allowed for him.

And within the Schengen zone, also crossing the borders in any point is allowed. The Polish-Slovak border is within Schengen.

The ex-Yugoslav lands (those which yet haven't done it) should join the EU, this would help integrate them back with each other.


----------



## Suburbanist

Kpc21 said:


> In such a way that he is an EU citizen and stays within the EU. As long as he has his ID document with him, this is allowed for him.
> 
> And within the Schengen zone, also crossing the borders in any point is allowed. The Polish-Slovak border is within Schengen.
> 
> The ex-Yugoslav lands (those which yet haven't done it) should join the EU, this would help integrate them back with each other.


I am in favor of that but only after a stronger anti-strongmen / anti-illiberalism framework is in place with more theeth.


----------



## Corvinus

stickedy said:


> In Schengen area there are no border crossings anymore


They have reappeared in the course of the migrant crisis because at numerous Schengen *external* borders, illegal transit travelers entered the Schengen area more or less freely, and many still do.
Failed Schengen _external_ borders (together with the suction effect created by Merkel's _Willkommenskultur_) led to operational Schengen _internal_ borders. 
The bill is paid by cross-border workers who lose hours at internal border crossings, e.g. Hungarians working in Austria. On the main motorway crossing, Austrians have erected this "temporary" tent for monitoring traffic:










And this is a working-day reality for cross-border traffic following Austria's efforts to prevent human trafficking:


----------



## Junkie

Kpc21 said:


> The ex-Yugoslav lands (those which yet haven't done it) should join the EU, this would help integrate them back with each other.


The Balkan non-EU countries are far from any joining. First of all because they (we) have too much open bilateral disputes. This is not all but it's the main issue why the process is going slow. 
Also in the EU itself there are many countries which are strongly opposing the W.Balkans to join it. This is really racist.

There are many border disputes in the Balkans, some of which are also inside the association, as is the SLO-CRO dispute in Savudrija.


----------



## MattiG

stickedy said:


> In Schengen area there are no border crossings anymore


Of course, there are. Routine border checks have ceased.


----------



## alserrod

Junkie said:


> Is that a legal crossing into another sovereign territory? If not how come can you count it as a legal stay?


within Schengen area, even police can cross to arrest someone.
This is, forbidden that issue about "border crossed". Police can keep on.

There are some issues to follow

Advice national police asap
Limit of km (I think E-F is 25 km and E-P is 40 km but not sure)
no fire weapons could be used except to defend themselves
Arrested must be given to national authorities even in the same border. Later, an international request

But it is quite often to see police in both sides of border instead in booths. Even walking together in those touristic towns with a lot of foreing people. It is a point that helps a lot of to visitors because police who is located in border areas or for a foreing town is bilingual and will help their citizens in their own language


----------



## Kpc21

MattiG said:


> Of course, there are. Routine border checks have ceased.


Border crossings in the meaning of checkpoints, being the only legal places for crossing the border, indeed do not exist any more.

They are sometimes temporarily restored (in case of some important events in the country, or, as someone pointed out, just now on some borders due to the migration crisis), but generally they do not exist. On many former crossings even the infrastructure got disassembled and demolished.

Except for those transient situations, it's fully legal to cross the border at any point. Unless you don't break any national rules like walking out of the paths in national parks, which might sometimes happen to be a problem in mountain areas.

There are border checks, but there are made randomly, similarly to just a standard road police check.


----------



## stickedy

MattiG said:


> Of course, there are. Routine border checks have ceased.


No! Article 22 of Schengen Border Code is explicit about this (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32016R0399)



> Internal borders may be crossed at any point without a border check on persons, irrespective of their nationality, being carried out.


When you can cross the border at any point, the are no border crossings anymore.


----------



## stickedy

Corvinus said:


> They have reappeared in the course of the migrant crisis because at numerous Schengen *external* borders, illegal transit travelers entered the Schengen area more or less freely, and many still do.


There are temporary checks at the border, however, border crossings ceased to exist. You are free to pass the border at any point, there are no dedicated border crossing points any more.


----------



## Penn's Woods

stickedy said:


> No! Article 22 of Schengen Border Code is explicit about this (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32016R0399)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you can cross the border at any point, the are no border crossings anymore.




To me, a “border crossing” is the point on the map where you cross a boundary between two countries. Or the act of doing so. Whether there’s physical infrastructure or not.

For what it’s worth.


----------



## MichiH

Penn's Woods said:


> To me, a “border crossing” is the point on the map where you cross a boundary between two countries. Or the act of doing so. Whether there’s physical infrastructure or not.


The "border checks" on A3 between Austria and Germany are done behind the first German exit (here), about 7km behind the border.

The former border border control buildings were on the other side of the river in Austria (here)


----------



## Kpc21

Penn's Woods said:


> To me, a “border crossing” is the point on the map where you cross a boundary between two countries. Or the act of doing so. Whether there’s physical infrastructure or not.
> 
> For what it’s worth.


Not sure about other European languages (in many of them it might be similar), but in Polish the term "border crossing" ("przejście graniczne") is used specifically for the checkpoint. We don't have a word for a checkpoint in general, hence the use of "crossing" also in this meaning.

But even using this logic, the whole border lines are "border crossings". You can sail or swim through Odra (or Oder in German) from Poland to Germany at any point and nobody will stop you. You can have a walk in a mountain forest at the Polish-Slovak border just across it, without using the paths, and unless you enter a national park area, nobody will stop you - just watch under your feet so that you don't step onto a venomous snake so that it bites you.


----------



## Junkie

^^
I think what you say is not correct, because wherever you go you have to have identification with you? And swimming across the river with identification might be bad 

That's why I said, legal stay must be done with identification as its in every country no matter if you are checked or not.


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> To me, a “border crossing” is the point on the map where you cross a boundary between two countries. Or the act of doing so. Whether there’s physical infrastructure or not.
> 
> For what it’s worth.


More than 20 km ago I went twice to this mountain pass










and stayed for a while atop. It is the border between Spain and France. We didn't wanted to enter more in France because effort to do back to camp would be strong... but it was a border crossing in all ways, wasn't it?

One week later I went to England via Cherbourg crossing at Irun/Hendaye with France again. No passport control in France, barely control in the ferry. Wanted to have passport stamped and said no stamps. Were too busy.


BTW... Second time I reached that mountain pass (only 2500m or so but strongly hard for mountain trekking and quite dangerous) I saw a Spanish police patrol near there. They were with quite accurate equipment to be in mountain. It is a police team specialized in mountains. 99% of work is helping people in mountain but guess that if in that moment a smuggler or people looked for by justice was there would be arrested. It is the only time have seen police in mountain except in those cases they are called because an accident. Remember we asked how to climb pass and said with accuracy exact path and dangers we could find. Knew perfectly that area.


But... even with two officers (just a logo in the T-shirt said they were officers... rest of clothes same that any other trekker) some mettres away from border, no passport control (and we asked how to reach the border...)


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> I am in favor of that but only after a stronger anti-strongmen / anti-illiberalism framework is in place with more theeth.


Most (all?) countries in the Balkans are multi-party democracies. The main problems in the region that interfere with EU/Schengen enlargement are: the high level of corruption, poverty, border disputes between countries, the status of Kosovo, the division of BiH, and, more recently, the migrant crisis.


----------



## Junkie

italystf said:


> Most (all?) countries in the Balkans are multi-party democracies. The main problems in the region that interfere with EU/Schengen enlargement are: the high level of corruption, poverty, border disputes between countries, the status of Kosovo, the division of BiH, and, more recently, the migrant crisis.


What are you talking about?
'Corruption and poverty', have you ever seen Bulgaria and Romania?

It has to do with the bilateral disputes some of which are with EU member states, and the rule of law which is almost impossible to implement any serious reforms.

But if we go much deeper every country of these six has its one very serious dedicated problems. Montenegro is on the best path, BiH and Kosovo* on the worst.


----------



## stickedy

Junkie said:


> ^^
> I think what you say is not correct, because wherever you go you have to have identification with you? And swimming across the river with identification might be bad
> 
> That's why I said, legal stay must be done with identification as its in every country no matter if you are checked or not.


That depends on the laws of the country you are in. There is no EU law which forces you to take you ID card or passport along when you cross in another country. However, the different countries may have laws that you need to take your ID card or passport with you.

In Germany you are not forced to take that along, however you have to able to identify yourself when you are checked by police. And if you don't have anything with you, they will most likely check it at a police station, however there's is no fee for not taking your papers.

That's different for sure e.g. in Switzerland, where you have to have your papers with you all the time. Don't know about other countries.

But that's not the point, even if you don't take your papers along, crossing the border is not illegal! You are free to move within Schengen Area, there are no border formalities necessary.


----------



## Palance

Trespassing should be possible. Surviving afterwards not


----------



## Kpc21

volodaaaa said:


> So when I close my eyes, I can peacefully trespass the North Korea - South Korea border? :troll:


Yes, you can. You will rest in peace if you try doing so.


----------



## Eulanthe

MichiH said:


> Of course, you can cross the border at any point. And there are no border checks but "simple" stop-and-search operation (Polizeikontrolle) at some major routes, e.g. A3 and A8 in Bavaria. The checks are permanently done here. There are (usually) no checks at smaller roads.


This wasn't the case during the last suspension of Schengen in Poland - it was explicitly mentioned that the border could only be crossed at approved crossing points (which are listed in some government document somewhere) and not at any other crossings.


----------



## stickedy

Junkie said:


> ^^
> What is false information? The fact that you can't be on the back of another country? Or the fact that if you don't have money or purpose of your stay you are considered illegal & after 3 months?


That's only true for people outside of Schengen area. And this 90 days are general for the whole Schengen area, not just for one country inside Schengen area.

There are also exceptions of countries which are members of Schengen but not in the EU. That makes stuff complicated, to make it easy we should stick to EU countries with full Schengen area membership.


----------



## stickedy

Eulanthe said:


> This wasn't the case during the last suspension of Schengen in Poland - it was explicitly mentioned that the border could only be crossed at approved crossing points (which are listed in some government document somewhere) and not at any other crossings.


Can you please check if you find this document?

I am sure that there were no such rules yet when Germany was/is doing border checks.


----------



## stickedy

Junkie said:


> I will ask you not to use any ad hominem in here.
> 
> What I wrote is correct and you can stay only in that period in another country without registration. If you want to stay more you should be registered and based on your purpose of stay, so you have to provide info that you have money to support yourself or work contract etc.... So If you don't have money you cannot prolong your stay and you are considered illegal. It is so because you are not citizen of that country no matter the union, so you cannot be on the back of another country.


This is not correct. You don't have to give any of this information nor has someone allow you to stay. You just have to give the information: "Hey, I am in this country now and I live at this address". That's it. But that depends also a lot on the registration laws of the country. In German e.g. you have to register immediately at the city when you move in or move out of a flat/house, no matter what citizenship you have. This is all about when you are not a guest anymore at someones place and you are living at this place. Quite complicated all this stuff. But that's not really connected to Schengen at all, at least not for people with citizenship of a Schengen state.


----------



## stickedy

One more think: I think I used the wrong words when starting this discussion.

What I meant: "There a no border crossing points any more". And this is true.

Of course, the old checkpoint mostly still exists, but if there are new roads or food paths build, no border infrastructure will be built because you are so or so free to cross the border.


----------



## Junkie

stickedy

You didn't answer my (correct) statement. So I will reformulate. 

Can 2 million Romani people from Bulgaria & Romania decide to move to Germany and register on the back of the social security fund of Germany? I don't think so, because they are not citizens of that country. But they may get it in their own country. 
Conclusion: If they don't have work or money to support themselves they are considered illegal by all means.


----------



## Attus

Penn's Woods said:


> I actually went back and looked at the first page, and there are pictures of things like border speed-limit signs.)


We haven't had Junkie back then...


----------



## stickedy

Junkie said:


> Can 2 million Romani people from Bulgaria & Romania decide to move to Germany and register on the back of the social security fund of Germany? I don't think so, because they are not citizens of that country. But they may get it in their own country.
> Conclusion: If they don't have work or money to support themselves they are considered illegal by all means.


They are free to move to Germany without any problems.

As EU citizen you get money from the German social funds only after you worked for 5 years in Germany. When you worked, you get also money from unemployment insurance after 1 year of working for 6 months (longest time is 1 year if you worked for 2 years in 2 years time). This is current law, it was changed last year (it was 6 months of working before for the social funds) and most likely violates European law. This will be a case for courts.

If they don't work and don't have money (however they are managing life then), the are NOT illegal! They just can't get money from the social funds, but that's not influencing their right to stay in Germany (or any other EU country).


----------



## volodaaaa

Junkie said:


> stickedy
> 
> You didn't answer my (correct) statement. So I will reformulate.
> 
> Can 2 million Romani people from Bulgaria & Romania decide to move to Germany and register on the back of the social security fund of Germany? I don't think so, because they are not citizens of that country. But they may get it in their own country.
> Conclusion: If they don't have work or money to support themselves they are considered illegal by all means.


Is it really that hard to understand the difference between the Schengenland and the European Union? It is not the same.


----------



## MichiH

Attus said:


> We haven't had Junkie back then...


I wish Radi would be back... :lol:


----------



## Eulanthe

stickedy said:


> Can you please check if you find this document?
> 
> I am sure that there were no such rules yet when Germany was/is doing border checks.


I can't find it now, but I remember it well because it was very strange for mentioning explicitly that the borders could only be crossed at certain points. Like you say, other countries suspending Schengen only do controls, they don't block people (usually, with some exceptions) from simply crossing where they want. 

Still, let's look at an old picture of the border crossing in Kudowa Słone - Nachod (PL-CZ). This is looking into Nachod I think, and it might be from before 2004 (but I'm not 100%).


----------



## Eulanthe

Heck, why not, let's post some more pictures.

https://dolny-slask.org.pl/6489399,foto.html is quite interesting - it shows the Zgorzelec-Gorlitz border in 1974, which was during the period of visa free access between Poland and East Germany.










This one is fascinating. It's of the border crossing here in Cieszyn - which at this time was quite empty. In comparison, in the 1990's, it was chaos at this point - while the new crossing had opened up outside Cieszyn to handle trucks and buses, plenty of people were moving between the two cities, particularly in the early 1990's when the economies were completely out of sync.


----------



## Ronnie87

stickedy said:


> They are free to move to Germany without any problems.
> 
> As EU citizen you get money from the German social funds only after you worked for 5 years in Germany. When you worked, you get also money from unemployment insurance after 1 year of working for 6 months (longest time is 1 year if you worked for 2 years in 2 years time). This is current law, it was changed last year (it was 6 months of working before for the social funds) and most likely violates European law. This will be a case for courts.
> 
> If they don't work and don't have money (however they are managing life then), the are NOT illegal! They just can't get money from the social funds, but that's not influencing their right to stay in Germany (or any other EU country).


You are wrong. The right to live in another EU/EEA state is not unrestricted. To reside in another EU/EEA state, one must either be working, job-hunting, studying, or have sufficient financial resources to be able to sustain themselves. They cannot become a burden on the social services of the host country. Otherwise Immigration Enforcement can initiate their deportation.

I quote from the official FAQ published by the European Commission:



> 44. I am Czech and I would like to move to Austria to look for a job there. How long can I stay there before I find a job?
> 
> As an unemployed job-seeker, you are allowed to stay in Austria for at least 6 months, and even longer, even if you do not have any income or unemployment benefits from your country of provenance as long as you can show that you are genuinely looking for a job and have a real chance of finding one. You can prove this with copies of job applications, invitations to interviews or positive reactions to your applications, for instance.
> 
> 45. My husband and I plan to retire in the south of France. We are both UK nationals. Are there any conditions to our right of residence in France?
> 
> Yes. As economically inactive migrants, you will be required to show that you have sufficient resources for both of you – and possibly for your dependent family members joining you – in order not to become a burden on the French social assistance during your period of residence, and that you have comprehensive sickness insurance cover.


The rules governing the right of abode within the EU are fairly permissive, but limitations exist nonetheless.


----------



## Junkie

del


----------



## Eulanthe

To continue with the historical theme, here's a video that deserves to be watched: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgLKncxpURU

It shows how controls took place in Cieszyn once Poland and the Czech Republic joined the EU. Essentially, the controls were already relaxed - 

In the early 1990's, controls were much more severe. For instance, everyone had to enter the building shown at around 0:20, where bags would be checked and a full customs clearance would take place as well as passport controls. Several hour queues to cross the border were normal, especially on weekends.


----------



## volodaaaa

Strange video I have found on youtube. Yet perfectly fitting this thread. Do not forget to turn on subs.





The reporter is incredibly annoying though.


----------



## haddockman

It is no wonder he is on the blacklist.


----------



## Eulanthe

That guy was absolutely awful, he was just provoking the Ukrainian border guards needlessly. I was wondering how he could do it, but this video below shows that the Ukrainian and Russian forces are separated by only a few meters. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13aEZnhdx5Y 

I'm actually surprised there isn't more of a no mans land between the two sides, but I guess things are stable there and there's only a couple of men at the first roadblock. The only thing I wonder about is whether or not there's no contact between the two sides, or if there's contact on an unofficial basis between Ukrainians and Russians.


----------



## tfd543

Vistula said:


> I wonder if ex YU countries are better now on its own then they were back in the yugoslav times?


Thats not easy to answer and lets keep that out of this forum before fuel is being thrown into the fire. I know its interesting to talk about but it simply does not belong to this forum. We are a lot of people around and have to respect that the majority wants to read or see images of borders.


----------



## kreden

alserrod said:


> Found a boundaring fence in Gorizia in a current picture. Is it because it is a home garden bound or so?


Some fencing is garden fencing but some is also a 1.5-metre green wire border fence. Other areas have fences running close to the border, but they are actually there for safety reasons as there are a cycling path and railway running along the border.


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> Found a boundaring fence in Gorizia in a current picture. Is it because it is a home garden bound or so?


Even here- it's the original border fence and hasn't been demolished. I have no idea why, and it's the same here: 

The same fence even runs here - and even runs to the old local border crossing here.

Why this fence wasn't removed, I have no idea. It's not used as any sort of memorial or reminder.

It's worth remembering that the fence on the square in front of the railway station was actually a high fence up until February 2004, and there was no border crossing at that point. The border itself was heavily guarded up until the 1950's by Yugoslavia, but after that, things were pretty much normalised and became just an ordinary international border.

Interestingly, this border is still closed for vehicles here. Interestingly, I've read several accounts online suggesting that these pedestrian-only crossings were effectively open 24h for EU citizens after 2004 (officially, only until 18/20), and punishments were only handed out to those from non-EU countries for crossing illegally.


----------



## kreden

Eulanthe said:


> Even here- it's the original border fence and hasn't been demolished. I have no idea why, and it's the same here:
> 
> The same fence even runs here - and even runs to the old local border crossing here.
> 
> Why this fence wasn't removed, I have no idea. It's not used as any sort of memorial or reminder.
> 
> It's worth remembering that the fence on the square in front of the railway station was actually a high fence up until February 2004, and there was no border crossing at that point.


I don't know why it wasn't removed after 2007, but I remember that back in 2004 both city administrations wanted the fence to remain. It's worth mentioning that the border neighbourhoods were quiet residential areas until Schengen and when the Via San Gabriele/Erjavčeva ulica crossing was opened for all vehicles traffic increased enormously. I wouldn't be surprised if locals wanted to keep traffic away. As for the current fence, it is quite old, much older than 2004. In February 2004, only the portion of the existing fence that ran over the future square was removed.



> Interestingly, this border is still closed for vehicles here. Interestingly, I've read several accounts online suggesting that these pedestrian-only crossings were effectively open 24h for EU citizens after 2004 (officially, only until 18/20), and punishments were only handed out to those from non-EU countries for crossing illegally.


That particular crossing would be of little use to vehicles nowadays, it would only cause problems for the locals living there, plus the railway crossing would have to be modernized at a significant cost.

I believe you are correct regarding the unofficial crossing arrangements.


----------



## Eulanthe

kreden said:


> I don't know why it wasn't removed after 2007, but I remember that back in 2004 both city administrations wanted the fence to remain. It's worth mentioning that the border neighbourhoods were quiet residential areas until Schengen and when the Via San Gabriele/Erjavčeva ulica crossing was opened for all vehicles traffic increased enormously. I wouldn't be surprised if locals wanted to keep traffic away. As for the current fence, it is quite old, much older than 2004. In February 2004, only the portion of the existing fence that ran over the future square was removed.


Yes, I was in Gorizia/Nova Gorica last year, and the surprising thing for me is that the Via San Gabriele/Erjavčeva ulica crossing was apparently pedestrian-only and wasn't a main crossing at all. It didn't seem that way when I was there - I thought it was always a main crossing along with Casa Rossa/Rozana Dolina. But it is very strange to me that they didn't remove all the fence - it really stands out, especially as it's in an urban area.



> I believe you are correct regarding the unofficial crossing arrangements.


It would be surprising if it wasn't that way - a lot of the border crossings elsewhere also worked the same way. I know the PL-CZ pedestrian crossings were frequently left unguarded between 2004-2007, especially as many smaller watchtower bases were abandoned in 2005 by Poland. 

I've found this article - http://www.mladina.si/91088/zapusceni-mejni-prehodi/ - that seems to confirm that Slovenia was already withdrawing border police from the border crossings as early as summer 2007. 

Some interesting border footage here too - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bTWZF6rrKc - from 1998. 

And something else I've found - some very brief footage of the border bridge at Slavonski Brod-Bosanski Brod in 1992. It also contains some scenes of Croatian border controls - https://youtu.be/3bovakh3iN8?t=86 

And finally, some more archive footage of the border crossing at Bosanska Raca (Yugoslavia-BiH) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9VEVRmt1yk from 1995 or early 1996.

edit: a little bit more - https://youtu.be/lcYB41Xq99o?t=16 - is this a border crossing of the largely unknown parastate Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia / Republic of Western Bosnia with the Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina? If it is, then there's some more footage later in the video, too.


----------



## kreden

Eulanthe said:


> Yes, I was in Gorizia/Nova Gorica last year, and the surprising thing for me is that the Via San Gabriele/Erjavčeva ulica crossing was apparently pedestrian-only and wasn't a main crossing at all. It didn't seem that way when I was there - I thought it was always a main crossing along with Casa Rossa/Rozana Dolina. But it is very strange to me that they didn't remove all the fence - it really stands out, especially as it's in an urban area.


Yes, it does stand out, but in reality it doesn't hinder passage as much as you might think. I believe the fence is still there as a historical reminder but there are also more pragmatic reasons. If there was no fence, you would be able to access the first street in Slovenia on foot but you wouldn't be able to get much further after that. The railway station and its train tracks run parallel to the border for the entire length of the fence. The only railway crossings are on streets that are also the northern and southern end of the fence.


----------



## Gyorgy

Eulanthe said:


> Even here- it's the original border fence and hasn't been demolished. I have no idea why, and it's the same here:
> 
> The same fence even runs here - and even runs to the old local border crossing here.
> 
> Why this fence wasn't removed, I have no idea. It's not used as any sort of memorial or reminder.
> 
> It's worth remembering that the fence on the square in front of the railway station was actually a high fence up until February 2004, and there was no border crossing at that point. The border itself was heavily guarded up until the 1950's by Yugoslavia, but after that, things were pretty much normalised and became just an ordinary international border.
> 
> Interestingly, this border is still closed for vehicles here. Interestingly, I've read several accounts online suggesting that these pedestrian-only crossings were effectively open 24h for EU citizens after 2004 (officially, only until 18/20), and punishments were only handed out to those from non-EU countries for crossing illegally.


Probably the only reason why this fence is still there -> it's so meaningless nobody bothers to remove it. And people have enough crossing points already.


----------



## Eulanthe

kreden said:


> Yes, it does stand out, but in reality it doesn't hinder passage as much as you might think. I believe the fence is still there as a historical reminder but there are also more pragmatic reasons. If there was no fence, you would be able to access the first street in Slovenia on foot but you wouldn't be able to get much further after that. The railway station and its train tracks run parallel to the border for the entire length of the fence. The only railway crossings are on streets that are also the northern and southern end of the fence.


It does make sense, but what about here for instance? It's actually quite a long way round if you want to go to the Nova Gorica train station - over 1.2km by road, or 200m on foot. Wouldn't it just make more sense to extend the accesses to the Slovenian road and close the Italian one?


----------



## kreden

Preventing inhabitants direct access to their home country seems quite extreme for what is essentially a non-issue.


----------



## Junkie

italystf said:


> Between June 1945 and September 1947 Venezia Giulia was split by the "Morgan Line" into zone A (occupied by Allied troops) and zone B (occupied by Yugoslav troops).


In this photo very interesting detail is that Pula wasn't incorporated in Yugoslavia. Pula was actually incorporated later by the agreement Tito-Churchill. Otherwise it could have ended being an Italian enclave in Yugoslavia (Croatia) till today.


----------



## Penn's Woods

There’s a prominent Italian-American TV chef here - Lidia Bastianich (that’s her ex-husband’s last name) - whose life story includes being born in Pula in the late 40s, escaping to Trieste somehow, and ending up here as a child. For what it’s worth.


----------



## italystf

Junkie said:


> In this photo very interesting detail is that Pula wasn't incorporated in Yugoslavia. Pula was actually incorporated later by the agreement Tito-Churchill. Otherwise it could have ended being an Italian enclave in Yugoslavia (Croatia) till today.


Not only the exclave of Pola/Pula, but also a strip of land west of the Morgan line and thus administered by Allied forces between 1945 and 1947 (including Tolmino/Tolmin, Caporetto/Kobarid, Comeno/Komen and Sesana/Sezana), was annexed by Yugoslavia in 1947.


----------



## Eulanthe

Junkie said:


> In this photo very interesting detail is that Pula wasn't incorporated in Yugoslavia. Pula was actually incorporated later by the agreement Tito-Churchill. Otherwise it could have ended being an Italian enclave in Yugoslavia (Croatia) till today.


There was precedent for it - the city of Zara (modern Zadar in Croatia) was an Italian enclave between the wars.


----------



## YU-AMC

Kpc21 said:


> I would say, the transformation period is always bad (it was so, at least, in Poland). In ex-Yugoslavia this period became much longer because of the wars and still not solved conflicts regarding the borders and the independence of some areas. Some time must pass before it calms down and the countries start to develop.



You can't compare Poland with SFRY. Poland was and is mainly catholic. On the flip side, in Yugoslavia there were so many tribes where the West made big money on them selling them all sorts of weapons. The agendas were very different. The main objective for Poland was to integrate it into the EU.


----------



## YU-AMC

tfd543 said:


> Thats not easy to answer and lets keep that out of this forum before fuel is being thrown into the fire. I know its interesting to talk about but it simply does not belong to this forum. We are a lot of people around and have to respect that the majority wants to read or see images of borders.



Hmm speaking from a touristic point of view, I find it that there are way too many borders in the former Yugoslavia......You end up wasting hours, if not days of your vacation. Than you have the border guards.... They don't seem to be paid enough to do their job properly. The border facilities seem very shady at its best. I think Serbia is the only one that has scanners for the trucks and motion sensors to detect the refugees.


----------



## Kanadzie

YU-AMC said:


> You can't compare Poland with SFRY. Poland was and is mainly catholic.


Well, is now, wasn't exactly so before :nuts:


----------



## Junkie

YU-AMC said:


> Hmm speaking from a touristic point of view, I find it that there are way too many borders in the former Yugoslavia......


I will tell you example. Going from Skopje to Dubrovnik on the shortest route you need to pass 5 borders (2 checkpoints at each one) and the route is just above 400 kilometers.



Eulanthe said:


> There was precedent for it - the city of Zara (modern Zadar in Croatia) was an Italian enclave between the wars.


After WW1 The Kingdom of Yugoslavia gained much lands. But Istria was always Italian. Until Italy lost the war. I wonder what would have happened if Yalta Conference was voted against Yugoslavia. Great Britain holds their own hands for much of what Tito did/was allowed to push for.


----------



## darko06

It was a pleasure to search & find so many mistakes on the map above.
1) Slawonien is actually Slovenia.
2) Kroaten-Slowenen is actually Croatia-Slavonia.
3) Herceg Novi was not part of Dalmatia, but of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Tito gave it to Montenegro in 1947.
4) The name of the new state was officially not Yugoslavia, but the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats & Slovenes, from its constitution on December 1st, 1918. So Slovenia constituted the triune Kingdom in 1918, not in 1919. (It became Kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1929 or 1930, when King Alexander I. abolished the Constitution.)
5) The entity of "Macedonia" does not even exist until 1945. This part of the Kingdom of SHS was known as the Old Serbia (Стара Србија).
6) Servia is actually Serbia, because in Cyrillic it spells Србија, not Срвија.
7) If Dubrovnik (Ragusa) is okay to you, would it be okay Skopje (Üsküb)?
8) Why Hellas instead of Greece, if Albania instead of Shqipëria?
9) What is Österreichische? 
to point a few.

But I am wondering, which history you folks learned in the "old" Yugoslav times and which history you learn now, in your free country. A lot of exacerbated "Doric" and "Ionic" columns in your capital city gives us a lot to think.

Edit: If Yalta Conference was, as you put it, voted against Yugoslavia, than probably a lot of your country would be Bulgarian province today, capital city included. Keep it in mind.


----------



## darko06

Actually, I am compliant with the Greek point of view regarding your relationships with them. And honestly, why should anyone bother with the territories which the Kingdom of Serbia entered into the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats & Slovenes?


----------



## Penn's Woods

darko06 said:


> It was a pleasure to search & find so many mistakes on the map above.
> 1) Slawonien is actually Slovenia.
> 2) Kroaten-Slowenen is actually Croatia-Slavonia.
> 3) Herceg Novi was not part of Dalmatia, but of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Tito gave it to Montenegro in 1947.
> 4) The name of the new state was officially not Yugoslavia, but the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats & Slovenes, from its constitution on December 1st, 1918. So Slovenia constituted the triune Kingdom in 1918, not in 1919. (It became Kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1929 or 1930, when King Alexander I. abolished the Constitution.)
> 5) The entity of "Macedonia" does not even exist until 1945. This part of the Kingdom of SHS was known as the Old Serbia (Стара Србија).
> 6) Servia is actually Serbia, because in Cyrillic it spells Србија, not Срвија.
> 7) If Dubrovnik (Ragusa) is okay to you, would it be okay Skopje (Üsküb)?
> 8) Why Hellas instead of Greece, if Albania instead of Shqipëria?
> 9) What is Österreichische?
> to point a few.
> 
> But I am wondering, which history you folks learned in the "old" Yugoslav times and which history you learn now, in your free country. A lot of exacerbated "Doric" and "Ionic" columns in your capital city gives us a lot to think.
> 
> Edit: If Yalta Conference was, as you put it, voted against Yugoslavia, than probably a lot of your country would be Bulgarian province today, capital city included. Keep it in mind.




Yes. That was quite a map.


----------



## aubergine72

Junkie said:


> The biggest NATO scandal is that *Greece *as the only NATO member who actually opposed the bombing of FRY, *was pushed* to allow UK and US forces to advance from the Aegean port of Thessaloniki through Macedonia and into Kosovo and to station on the regional borders. This is the so called 'western democracy and liberalism', I guess.


You mean lavishly showered with $$$ for decades.


----------



## Junkie

What is very interesting about this bombing is that the main air base that was used was Aviano in Italy. Since the Adriatic was closed, Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro and Albania were not part of the alliance. 

Italy was strongly condemned about this action from Russia that allowed the bombing to take place from here, since without any UN approval, NATO started the bombardment.

But back to the borders:

Passing of the troops at the border station 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UROtQMZm85I


----------



## Attus

volodaaaa said:


> I don't want to bring up politics here


So why did you? Were you forced to?


----------



## Alex_ZR

Junkie said:


> What is very interesting about this bombing is that the main air base that was used was Aviano in Italy. Since the Adriatic was closed, Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro and Albania were not part of the alliance.


Montenegro was part of Yugoslavia in 1999 and also target of bombing.


----------



## Kpc21

Is it the border crossing thread or the war in Yugoslavia thread?

Can't a moderator add a [Yugoslavia war = brig] tag to the thread title?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Kpc21 said:


> Is it the border crossing thread or the war in Yugoslavia thread?
> 
> Can't a moderator add a [Yugoslavia war = brig] tag to the thread title?




I was thinking along similar lines: “International Border Crossings and Balkan History.” And that’s the politest idea I had.

At least no one’s argued about Gibraltar in a while. :troll:


----------



## Eulanthe

Kpc21 said:


> Is it the border crossing thread or the war in Yugoslavia thread?


Yes - people, please, keep the discussions about actual border issues. We can talk about how the borders functioned during wartime Yugoslavia, but not about the actual war itself.


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> I was thinking along similar lines: “International Border Crossings and Balkan History.” And that’s the politest idea I had.
> 
> At least no one’s argued about Gibraltar in a while. :troll:


Hope that while would be longer and longer

Partially argues come from situation made by governments, sometimes to make breaking news to hide other ones.


Anyway, prefer more pics, less stories


----------



## volodaaaa

So any pictures of border crossings in wartime Yugoslavia? :troll:


----------



## Eulanthe

volodaaaa said:


> So any pictures of border crossings in wartime Yugoslavia? :troll:


Found a great picture of the river border crossing at Golubac (Yugoslavia-Romania), but the website is banned


----------



## CNGL

Penn's Woods said:


> I was thinking along similar lines: “International Border Crossings and Balkan History.” And that’s the politest idea I had.
> 
> At least no one’s argued about Gibraltar in a while. :troll:


Well, Gibraltar is... forget Gibraltar.

Anyway, I think the only way for this thread to be Balkan-free is a reunification of Yugoslavia.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Why does no one want to talk about it? It’s a pity more people don’t pay attention to the Gib issue... :troll:


----------



## Junkie

Eulanthe said:


> Yes - people, please, keep the discussions about actual border issues. We can talk about how the borders functioned during wartime Yugoslavia, but not about the actual war itself.


How about that this period is very interesting and overlap with much that can be discussed about the borders. This is an example:

Because of the name dispute that is an ongoing (and probably never ending) process between Greece and Macedonia, Greece imposed trade embargo back in 1994, which lasted for year and a half. In that period Macedonian economy started to collapse since Greece was and is the main trade dealer. 77% of the oil comes from Greece and back in 1994 it was as nearly as 90%.
The borders weren't halted but NO trucks could pass them. Except for goods that were from a transit country. When the provisional political deal was reached in the UN, Greece opened the borders.


----------



## GrownKid

*Firefighting*

To break the Balkan tension, here is some across-the-border help. Firefighters from Arizona are helping in combating fire in Mexico. Pic taken in 2012.


----------



## bratislav

Eulanthe said:


> Found a great picture of the river border crossing at Golubac (Yugoslavia-Romania), but the website is banned


I dont have Golubac, but I made this Novi Sad river border crossing today. This is NS only border crossing and it is on Danube river, at Novi Sad port.


----------



## Junkie

^^
How is the international waterway law regulated here? Can any ship that pass thru Danube just land on border stop like this one?


----------



## italystf

Junkie said:


> ^^
> How is the international waterway law regulated here? Can any ship that pass thru Danube just land on border stop like this one?


Danube is an international river. Ships can sail along it without the need of clearing custom and immigration at every country they cross. Only if the ship make a stop, immigration and custom are to be cleared at the port.


----------



## alserrod

Junkie said:


> ^^
> How is the international waterway law regulated here? Can any ship that pass thru Danube just land on border stop like this one?


With some exemptions, if a river is a border, the deepest point is the border (usually middle river but there could be exemptions too).

As an example

https://www.google.es/maps/@-25.551286,-54.6039472,12269m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=es

if wanna go from Ciudad del Este (Paraguay) to Puerto Iguazu (Argentina) avoiding two border controls in Brazil, you can go by boat in the Paraguayan side of the river.

Not very used indeed. People prefer to go by car. It is easy... but Ciudad del Este is known as "city without law", with a lot of smuggling and not safe whilst night.

Brazilian customs know about smuggling about any kind of goods and take care in booths... therefore, people try to export by river to Argentina just going through Paraguayan side of river and looking forward best point to reach Argentina. Not far away


----------



## Eulanthe

MichiH said:


> ^^ Why does no one want to talk about it? It’s a pity more people don’t pay attention to the Gib issue... :troll:


I think Gibraltar is already decided in a way. Spain will almost certainly place full controls on entry and exit, unlike the current situation. I wouldn't be surprised if they go as far as scanning every passport, while Gibraltar will probably guard the border even less than they do now to try and mitigate against the worst of it. 

I wouldn't be hugely shocked if Spain also ends the processing of commercial imports/exports at this point, simply to put even more pressure on Gibraltar. It's going to be very painful for Gibraltar, as EU membership was the only thing guaranteeing a normal existence for them. 

Of course, if Rajoy's government falls, then things will be relatively normal, or at least as normal as they can be there. Other parties don't have the same obsession over Gibraltar as the PP do.


----------



## alserrod

passport control are tiny. Main controls are over freight after a lot of smuggling. It is supposed that every Gibraltar citizen should smoke about 28 tobacco packs everyday even babies... or smuggling with it.


----------



## GrownKid

Is there any good movie about the borders? I would prefer a documentary.


----------



## GrownKid

http://www.tanjug.rs/full-view.aspx?izb=395447

"Only 3% of Serbian border with Bosnia is controversial" says Ivica Dacic (news is in Serbian, please use Google translate if you wish more info, or if you want, I could try to translate)


----------



## alserrod

GrownKid said:


> Is there any good movie about the borders? I would prefer a documentary.


The terminal

from S.Spielberg with T.Hanks


----------



## GrownKid

alserrod said:


> The terminal
> 
> from S.Spielberg with T.Hanks


Ah great movie. I think true story behind it (Mehran Karimi Nasseri was living at CDG for 18 years!) was amazing!


----------



## alserrod

GrownKid said:


> Ah great movie. I think true story behind it (Mehran Karimi Nasseri was living at CDG for 18 years!) was amazing!


Don't know if available in English but in 1990 started off Letters from Alou
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_from_Alou

If chatted about inmigration from Senegal and how there was current life once they had reached Europe.
Won one Spanish cinema award (and candidate to best movie).

Director is well-known in the movie world, once candidate to Oscar as foreing movie, several well-known movies, mainly based in the area where he lives (not this one)

Spanish law where in way to be changed in those years, and a look from inmigration appear in the movie.

BTW, main actor was from Senegal indeed (AFAIK) but living legally in the area and with family, thus it was easier for him to speech about that issue


----------



## Eulanthe

Further on the topic of maritime borders:

http://www.portoftallinn.com/static/body/pildid/pilt_28498.jpg

This is the current exit from the D-Terminal in Tallinn. Passport controls are sometimes conducted here, especially while Estonia had the Presidency of the European Union, but not only. However, there are no systematic passport controls here (as arrivals are from Schengen only) - but Customs controls are sometimes present for arrivals from Stockholm/Aland. 

http://www.portoftallinn.com/static/body/pildid/pilt_21883.jpg

This is the B terminal (arrivals - the A terminal is used for departures) passport control in Tallinn. It's used whenever ships arrive from St Petersburg, and to the best of my knowledge - this is the original infrastructure that was used for arrivals from Sweden (it's the so-called "Swedish Terminal" that was built specifically for the Tallinn-Stockholm line in 1990-1993). I don't know for certain, but I think this terminal was originally operated separately from the A-Terminal (which is in the same building) - so passengers to Stockholm would have also departed from here. 

Arrivals from Helsinki also use this infrastructure, but controls are rare and are usually intelligence-led, unlike arrivals from Stockholm in the D-Terminal. 

Sadly, I can't find photographs of the A terminal departures passport control - it's a much more old fashioned affair. It's the most interesting one of them all, and it's still used for departures to St Petersburg. When I was there, I noticed that the Estonian police were much more interested in Eckero Line / Viking Line passengers departing (though no controls were made as such) than Tallink ones from the D-Terminal. I wonder why? 

Things will probably change considerably in the D-Terminal soon, as the terminal is about to be doubled in size.

An interesting anecdote about the Port of Tallinn is that controls here in the early 1990's were... chaotic. The connection to Sweden was notorious for smuggling - not only alcohol and cigarettes, but also people too.. I've read some documents years ago about how the Estonians were basically powerless in those times because of a lack of resources and the ability for smugglers to offer large amounts of cash to senior officers. 

The MS Estonia disaster is well known, but it's believed that up to 150 Iraqis were being smuggled that night too. No-one knows for sure, but circumstantial evidence suggests as such. 

Maybe MattiG knows something about smuggling to Finland before Estonia joined the EU? It must have gone on too, though I think it wasn't a popular destination for people smuggling due to the economic crisis in early 1990's Finland.


----------



## alserrod

Booths in Santander harbour.

https://www.google.es/maps/@43.4563...k4Nn-Tu6dWSOtrWFuRPQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es



There are two weekly journeys Plymouth&Porstmouth-Santander (and two more Portsmouth-Bilbao), one only in winter, one month for maintenance AFAIK.

One person who works 200ish km from Santander in the middle of mountains told me it was known which days ferry arrived because the next day they always had some British citizen who had booked in the hotel.

Takes 1,5 days journey and, obviously, all ferries requires customs (there aren't ferries to France or other country)


----------



## OulaL

MattiG said:


> You might be interested in this video on port operations on a ferry trip from Sweden to Finland. As it is intra-Schengen travel, no major border controls. Policemen and customs officers are watching at traffic flow in Turku.


At 0'22" we see Tallinn signposted along with Frihamnen, though the terminal operations were moved to Värtahamnen for some time ago already (and surely earlier than June 2017). The traffic to Tallinn is supposed to use exactly the same terminal gate as you did. All TallinkSilja ferries from Stockholm (to Helsinki, Turku, Tallinn and Riga) now use the one and same terminal.

Wonder if they are going to change this (or whether they have already)...


----------



## Eulanthe

Just out of interest, do you know which terminal in Stockholm was used for the original Tallinn-Stockholm service? I think it was Frihamnen, but I'm not certain. 

Here are the arrival controls for the St Petersburg service in Stockholm.


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> At 0'22" we see Tallinn signposted along with Frihamnen, though the terminal operations were moved to Värtahamnen for some time ago already (and surely earlier than June 2017). The traffic to Tallinn is supposed to use exactly the same terminal gate as you did. All TallinkSilja ferries from Stockholm (to Helsinki, Turku, Tallinn and Riga) now use the one and same terminal.
> 
> Wonder if they are going to change this (or whether they have already)...


Tallink moved to Värtahamnen but St Peter Line did not. Typically, the signposting cannot follow the availability and time tables. 

Especially in Stockholm, the traveller must be follow the signage to ports instead of following the road number or long-haul destinations. For example, the signage of E18 leads to Kappelskär, not to Värtahamnen.


----------



## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> Maybe MattiG knows something about smuggling to Finland before Estonia joined the EU?


There are long traditions on smuggling over the Gulf of Finland. During the Prohibition in Finland, massive amounts of booze were delivered from Estonia to Finland. During the cold war, the most popular "product" was smuggled legally: information. The Helsinki TV tower is 300+ meters high and the programs of the Finnish Television were visible in the North Estonia. That caused quite a panic among the Soviet authorities, and peaked the black market of the PAL-SECAM converters. The Finnish television was one of weapons to cause the final collapse of the Soviet Union.

Nowadays, the key smuggling goods flow is from Finland to Estonia: The ferry route is the most important corridor to move stolen things. The EU expansion to the east has rocketed the number of criminals working in Finland, especially from Latvia, Lithuania and Romania. The tactics usually follows the hint-and-run model: Steal as much as possible in few days and then leave Finland, and sell the things elsewhere.

The price difference of alcohol between Estonia and Finland makes the Finnish authorities quite alert: People buy a vanful of booze in Tallin, and then begins the discussion with the Finnish customs whether the excessive amount to the 10/20/90/110 litre norm is for own use or to resell. The police and the customs stop the seemingly overloaded vehicles for the sake of traffic safety.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Beer smuggling appears to be a popular pastime in Norway as well.


----------



## alserrod

Spanish alcohol has been always cheaper than in France but seems nobody worries

A sample at Portalet pass
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.8056577,-0.419054,346m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=es


Shopping centre in Spain, parking in France
https://www.google.es/maps/@43.2924472,-1.5042071,330m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=es

(getting out from shopping centre and crossing little creek is just smuggling. Seems not heavy control)

The weirdest periclave (land joined to mainland but need to cross another territory to reach there)
https://www.google.es/maps/@43.1175998,-1.2688652,591m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=es

Main road is in France, they took the first corner where to build a bridge and make a duty free shop



And main one.... looking towards south

Right France, road/street (in Spain it is the end of the N-2 road Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona-France) France
Left (just pedestrian side) Spain. Thus no parking metres in left side because it is another country. Turn left and will see a borderstone

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4635...aXPnkxEThA_3Q7yYaO2g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es

Enough to park the car (in France), get out enter in a shop (in Spain), buy anything and take into your car again (smuggling because it is in France!!)



there is cost difference but not so hard up to the point that French customs doesn't worry


Bonus... Andorra has really important cost differences but Spanish government prefer give to a little village (120 inhabitants) duty free instead of setting customs here

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.4951...DrG3uxuG-lpo4dI14hIg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=es


----------



## Junkie

MattiG said:


> The Finnish television was one of weapons to cause the final collapse of the Soviet Union.


I never heard of this. Do you mean that the Estonians can catch your language as you share same ancestors? But the Soviets codified and used different system than the West.



MattiG said:


> Nowadays, the key smuggling goods flow is from Finland to Estonia:


Is this because the prices are much lower in eastern Europe (considering the Baltics).


----------



## Kpc21

Junkie said:


> I never heard of this. Do you mean that the Estonians can catch your language as you share same ancestors? But the Soviets codified and used different system than the West.


In the cold war times, some pan-European radio stations, broadcasting on the middle or short waves, also had programs in Polish. Maybe also the Finnish TV was broadcasting some programs in Estonian?

They were being jammed by the government (there were transmitters that were transmitting some random signals on the same frequency to make it difficult to listen to the western stations), but it wasn't efficient enough.

Also the thing that the East was using a different range of frequencies when they introduced FM radio than the West was not without reason. Even though actually the first FM transmissions in Poland were on the western range.

Concerning the TV systems, if I am not mistaken, having a SECAM TV set, you still could receive PAL channels, the only problem was that there was no color.


----------



## Eulanthe

Kpc21 said:


> Concerning the TV systems, if I am not mistaken, having a SECAM TV set, you still could receive PAL channels, the only problem was that there was no color.


Yes, pretty much. Converters were available, and even in East Germany, they more or less gave up trying to stop people from watching West German TV by the 1970's. 



Junkie said:


> I never heard of this. Do you mean that the Estonians can catch your language as you share same ancestors? But the Soviets codified and used different system than the West.


A lot of Estonians along the northern coast would have learnt Finnish passively by simply watching Finnish TV - they might not have been able to speak it, but they would at least be able to understand it through constant exposure. 

Others would have had experience of Finns from a tourism perspective - remember, Finland was a neutral country that was on good terms with the USSR, so Finns were able to travel to Estonia from 1965 somewhat freely. Maybe Matti will know better, but I have a feeling that Finns were actually able to get visas easily for trips to Tallinn - the Port of Tallinn says that over 3 million Finnish tourists visited Tallinn between 1965 and 1990.

But the big one during the USSR times was the fact that the Finnish YLE (radio/TV public broadcaster) played _Maamme _(the accepted national anthem) at the end of the programming at night. Of course, the banned (in the USSR) Estonian anthem _Mu isamaa, mu õnn ja rõõm_ just so happens to have been based on the same piece of music that Maamme is.



MattiG said:


> People buy a vanful of booze in Tallin, and then begins the discussion with the Finnish customs whether the excessive amount to the 10/20/90/110 litre norm is for own use or to resell.


I thought the Finnish alkotourists were a stereotype, until I saw them in the Port of Tallinn. Oh my - I saw a lot of wasted older Finns, including one guy who was so far gone that he couldn't even push his trolley of booze into the lift to get up to the departures level. In fairness, everyone was behaving, they were just completely wasted. 

Thank you for the insight though - it certainly explains why there's a significance police presence in Tallinn!

Anyway, another historical curiosity. This time, it's from Frankfurt am Main in 1995, just before Schengen was started. At 0:34 in the video, you can see the signage for the border control - which had the normal EU lane, but that lane also included Austrians, Finnish, Norwegian, Swedish and Swiss citizens. Obviously Austria, Finland and Sweden joined the EU on the 1st January 1995 and so it's an old sign, but it shows how those countries were treated differently to other non-EU countries before Schengen.


----------



## italystf

Eulanthe said:


> Anyway, another historical curiosity. This time, it's from Frankfurt am Main in 1995, just before Schengen was started. At 0:34 in the video, you can see the signage for the border control - which had the normal EU lane, but that lane also included Austrians, Finnish, Norwegian, Swedish and Swiss citizens. Obviously Austria, Finland and Sweden joined the EU on the 1st January 1995 and so it's an old sign, but it shows how those countries were treated differently to other non-EU countries before Schengen.


Austria, Sweden and, Finland were part of EFTA before EEC accession. They enjoyed special relationship with EEC like Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, and Liechtenstein have with EU now.


----------



## MattiG

italystf said:


> Austria, Sweden and, Finland were part of EFTA before EEC accession. They enjoyed special relationship with EEC like Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, and Liechtenstein have with EU now.


True, but that is not the clue. The European Economy Area agreement (EEA) was effective as of January 1st, 1994. The membership to that club entitled to the similar treatment to the EU citizens at the EU borders, not the membership to EFTA.

The European layers of such bodies is not easy to understand. This is an oversimplification by Wikipedia:


----------



## MattiG

Junkie said:


> I never heard of this. Do you mean that the Estonians can catch your language as you share same ancestors? But the Soviets codified and used different system than the West.


Estonian and Finnish are quite close to each others. Because of that information channel, amazingly many people understood Finnish in the north Estonia.

The Finnish television does not dub the international programs, but they are broadcasted in the original language. That is why it was a gateway to the western world for those understanding English and other big languages. The Dallas series was very popular in Estonia. The whole north Estonia was said to have quiesced when the Emmanuelle movie was broadcasted, and there was a baby peak nine months afterwards.

The Soviet Union adopted the French SECAM system instead of PAL. A PAL receiver was able to show a low-quality black-and-white picture without sound. There were both political and technical reasons behing this choice: SECAM is more immune to the signal noise of long distribution channels between the broadcasting station and the transmitter than PAL. Anyway, the PAL-SECAM decoder is quite a simple device, and the later TV sets were commonly equipped with a dual-standard receiver, at least in the DDR.


----------



## Eulanthe

MattiG said:


> True, but that is not the clue. The European Economy Area agreement (EEA) was effective as of January 1st, 1994. The membership to that club entitled to the similar treatment to the EU citizens at the EU borders, not the membership to EFTA.


Aha, of course! But even more curiously - Switzerland had left the EEA at this time, while Liechtenstein was a member (and not mentioned on the signs). I'm not sure if Switzerland had signed the bilateral agreements by this time, though.

What's also interesting to note is how Schengen border crossings originally used EU/Non-EU signs - as opposed to today's EU/All Passports situation. 

Another video here from the last day of border controls between France and Italy


----------



## alserrod

How were those point controls?


----------



## bogdymol

At Nadlac (RO) - Csanadpalota (HU) (A1/M43) motorway border crossing, today in the morning there were 23 km long queues of lorries waiting to cross the border:


----------



## Alex_ZR

Foreign ministers of Hungary and Serbia opened today new border crossing Rastina (SRB) - Bácsszentgyörgy (H):














































Serbian and Hungarian will be located in the same building, same as Bački Vinogradi (SRB) - Ásotthalom (H).


----------



## Junkie

^^
Is this financed by EBRD? And is this for local traffic only? Some of this small crossings are not open for 24 h. You can clearly see on the last picture its not open from 7pm to 7am.

Also the Hungarian fence is shown on the picture no.4


----------



## alserrod

Is it often to have different or same locations for booths?

I just remember in Spain, even current borders, even in same buildings, even 50m away, no more.
Sometimes, in motorways where it is recommended not to make congestions, I remember having booths both in one or in another country at the same time. Other ones, in the same border.


----------



## CSerpent

I found the old 'last exit before the border' sign from the DDR side that used to be present.


----------



## Corvinus

^^ Cobblestone motorway, FTW


----------



## italystf

How many motorways do have the sign 'last exit in X country' sign?


----------



## bogdymol

On the Austrian autobahn there are signs with "last petrol station before the border".


----------



## GrownKid

There is a whole bunch in the US (I still can't post any pics around here).


----------



## Kpc21

bogdymol said:


> On the Austrian autobahn there are signs with "last petrol station before the border".


In Poland you don't need that, the billboards installed by the nearby gas stations are enough.

When you drive the A4 to Germany, there is first one advertising the station at the last rest area. After it, there is the next one: "you forgot to refuel? don't worry, there is [our station]" (where [our station] is the brand of the station to which you leave at the last exit and it's, by the way, of course, cheaper, as it's not directly at the motorway).

But there is yet more gas stations of different brands close to each other close to this exit.

It looks exactly so:










I was wrong, it's yet before the last rest area. You can see a rest area with BP and the advertisment says something like "Don't worry, there is also Shell".

There is no direct signage that the exit is last in Poland, however, you can see that because there is no more Polish towns for the "forward" direction on the signs (Jędrzychowice is a border crossing point, the name comes from a little village, but to get to this village, you would actually have to use this exit):


----------



## Penn's Woods

GrownKid said:


> There is a whole bunch in the US (I still can't post any pics around here).




Going out on a limb here, but I mostly see them where there’s a toll bridge or tunnel at the state line (which is true all over the place in the New York/New Jersey area). It’s almost shorthand for “get off here or you’ll have to pay a toll.” You also see “last exit before toll,” for that matter.


----------



## alserrod

CG-1 in Andorra, pointing last petrol station in the country

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.453...314.88083&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656


(in CG-2 for France no point because there are buildings up to border)


----------



## CNGL

italystf said:


> How many motorways do have the sign 'last exit in X country' sign?


Last exit in Spain, along AP-7. Note this is exit 2, there is an exit 1 but it only can be accesed from/to France. AP-8 doesn't have those warnings before exit 0 (km-based, it's literally just before the border), nor any of the motorways crossing into Portugal.


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> Is it often to have different or same locations for booths?


It's quite an interesting question and one that doesn't have a simple answer. But I'll try...

Yes, it was and is very common. For instance, in the Baltic States, or in the Nordic countries, border crossing infrastructure is/was mostly on the "one stop control" system where both controls take place in a single building. 

As you said, it was very common for Spain - I know the controls in La Jonquera and Irun were so-called 'one stop controls'. A quick look elsewhere suggests that it was a similar approach on other border crossings with France and Portugal too. But it was also common with Warsaw Pact borders too - even borders like PL/BY operated on the one-stop model until EU accession. Then there were borders such as at Świecko (PL/DE) where the one-stop system worked almost from the very beginning.

These days, the rule is that Schengen countries cannot have new-build Schengen controls outside of Schengen territory. So, for instance, the new Polish-Ukrainian one-stop border crossings are being built on Polish territory. 

But there are plenty of strange examples where the one-stop control doesn't operate, even though it would make sense for it to do so. The biggest example from the modern day EU that I can think of is the Gibraltar-Spain border, but I'm sure there are other stupid examples out there.


----------



## Kanadzie

Penn's Woods said:


> Going out on a limb here, but I mostly see them where there’s a toll bridge or tunnel at the state line (which is true all over the place in the New York/New Jersey area). It’s almost shorthand for “get off here or you’ll have to pay a toll.” You also see “last exit before toll,” for that matter.


I-87 Northway (no toll) has the same thing ("LAST USA EXIT"), they are around in Canada the opposite ("Last exit before U.S.A" for example on Hwy 405)

It's important to advise the traffic since going past this last exit by accident would be completely horrible (wait to access Canadian border check, turn around, go to US border...) or try and U-turn in the median on the American side and send the Border Patrol into some frenzy after you :lol:

In a Schengen scenario though, who cares


----------



## alserrod

I remember have been in picture posted by CNGL. It is motorway and no choice to U-turn.

When that motorway was built, passport was required. In the other motorway (Atlantic), it is pointed France 1 km ahead.

There weren't other motorways before Schengen, therefore, in any road you could always make a U-turn before border if you wanted.

Today.... there are some borders without signs, sometimes only French or Spanish department/region or so name only


----------



## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> It's quite an interesting question and one that doesn't have a simple answer. But I'll try...
> 
> Yes, it was and is very common. For instance, in the Baltic States, or in the Nordic countries, border crossing infrastructure is/was mostly on the "one stop control" system where both controls take place in a single building.
> 
> As you said, it was very common for Spain - I know the controls in La Jonquera and Irun were so-called 'one stop controls'. A quick look elsewhere suggests that it was a similar approach on other border crossings with France and Portugal too. But it was also common with Warsaw Pact borders too - even borders like PL/BY operated on the one-stop model until EU accession. Then there were borders such as at Świecko (PL/DE) where the one-stop system worked almost from the very beginning.
> 
> These days, the rule is that Schengen countries cannot have new-build Schengen controls outside of Schengen territory. So, for instance, the new Polish-Ukrainian one-stop border crossings are being built on Polish territory.
> 
> But there are plenty of strange examples where the one-stop control doesn't operate, even though it would make sense for it to do so. The biggest example from the modern day EU that I can think of is the Gibraltar-Spain border, but I'm sure there are other stupid examples out there.



Andorra-Spain have different booths but quite close as can be seen. 20m ahead and border in the middle. I took an old picture and Andorran customs are in the same building

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.435...4!1sSdGXJ5LqkpdR6YryLSr2Sg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


France-Andorra, one building for both customs
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.559...4!1s-fzDuSachBCwyp-8pcPxtg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

(police car in picture is Andorran police)
Booths are inside France




and mainly Spain-France had shared buildings. Here's former E-07 booths
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.795...4!1sIx-jlBMXm3H2p3zt8b_gCg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

You might avoid them crossing via tunnel but if you go through mountain pass, direction Spain you may cross close to booths and away direction France


I reckon that having separated or shared booths was an issue of traffic. Heavy traffic, separated (but near) booths. Low traffic, one only control.

In addition, motorways had tolls near border. You had to stop for three times going from Bayonne to St. Sebastian (or conversely), paying toll, French custom and Spanish custom but they were 100-200 m one after other and no problems for congestion.



When Schengen operated, it was mandatory to remove those buildings not to create congestion. Not worried with small traffic ones but down all in motorways or so


----------



## italystf

Kanadzie said:


> In a Schengen scenario though, who cares


Don't forget the vignette issue in many Central European countries (CH-A-SLO-H-SK-CZ).


----------



## italystf

CNGL said:


> Note this is exit 2, there is an exit 1 but it only can be accesed from/to France.


Like Tarvisio Nord junction on A23 in Italy, that can be accessed only to/from Austria.


----------



## CNGL

But IIRC Tarvisio South (I don't get why it and and Tarvisio North are named this way as they are roughly at the same latitude, they should be Tarvisio West and East respectively, it may be due to the general direction of A23) only can be accessed to/from Italy, unlike exit 2 on AP-7 that can be accessed from both directions.


----------



## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> Yes, it was and is very common. For instance, in the Baltic States, or in the Nordic countries, border crossing infrastructure is/was mostly on the "one stop control" system where both controls take place in a single building.


There still may be several desks even if they are located in the same building.

The N-S, N-FIN and later the FIN-S customs operations were really joint: The officers represented both countries. 

The N-FIN agreement is still valid. The Finnish customs officers are authorized to operate for Norway, and vice versa. The zone of joint operations spans seven kilometers from the border line on both sides.


----------



## Uppsala

italystf said:


> How many motorways do have the sign 'last exit in X country' sign?



In Sweden and Denmark it is like this. They sign the last one in Sweden and the last one in Denmark before the border


----------



## vitacit

bogdymol said:


> On the Austrian autobahn there are signs with "last petrol station before the border".


a lot of us living in bratislava use "the last petrol station before the border" in wolfsthal, austria as the gas is cheaper there than in SVK))))


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> When Schengen operated, it was mandatory to remove those buildings not to create congestion. Not worried with small traffic ones but down all in motorways or so


If I remember rightly, the buildings were finally removed in La Jonquera because the French and Spanish police kept using them for 'random' checks, even despite multiple warnings from the European Commission to stop doing it. In Hendaye, they were removed because of the relocation of the toll booths - there were numerous accidents where cars were crashing into the toll booths at the bottom of the long, long hill on the A63. 

I could be wrong here, but I think that the situation in Hendaye was very special because the area between the Spanish controls and the border was actually considered to be extraterritorial Spanish territory. It wasn't the same elsewhere. I only crossed at Irun-Hendaye from 1996 onwards, and there were numerous French and Spanish police around, but not controlling. 

About Andorra-Spain - that's actually a great example of how they really should be single controls, but instead, Spain maintains that large Customs building. The new crossing on the French/Andorran border is much, much better. 

BTW: I've been to Gibraltar a few days ago, and things are starting to look a little bit more serious. It looks like this:

Exit Spain by car (Customs): no checks
Exit Spain by car (Police): random checks, all documents need to be at least shown. Police are sometimes checking cars, too, but clearly randomly and it isn't being done to cause queues. 
Entry Gibraltar by car (Police): Non-British/Spanish citizens get a visual check as a minimum.
Entry Gibraltar by car (Customs): random checks, sometimes detailed. 

Two lanes are open when leaving Spain during busy times, with Gibraltar maintaining the two green/one red system. 

In reverse: 

Exit Gibraltar by car (Customs/Police): even worse than before, the barriers are almost all broken already and there's no system in place for random checks. It's clear that Gibraltar isn't putting any real effort into monitoring who is leaving. 
Entry Spain by car (Police): Complete lack of interest shown, although there was a guy in the passport control booth. 
Entry Spain by car (Customs): only one lane open, though the Customs guys on duty were just observing and not controlling anyone.

== on foot

Exit Spain (police/customs): little interest, just visual checks and detailed checks of non-EU citizens. The 'side gate' was open.
Entry Gibraltar (police): non-Spanish/British checked, but interestingly, I saw a non-EU citizen who didn't meet the requirements for entry. He had a multiple-entry Schengen visa, but he didn't have money or credit cards. They were very good about it - he wanted only to visit his friend and to stay the night with him, so they let him enter conditionally until midnight on the following day without any problems.
Entry Gibraltar (Customs) - this is new. They were observing who was crossing into Gibraltar, though no-one was stopped.

Exit Gibraltar (Customs/Police): hahahaha
Entry Spain (Police): same as before - Spanish/British citizens waved through or ignored, anyone visibly not British/Spanish was checked. The side gate was closed, but the policeman on duty was only sitting in the passport control booth when a non-EU citizen had to be checked. 
Entry Spain (Customs): quite serious - they were pulling people aside, both tourists and locals. 



MattiG said:


> The officers represented both countries.
> 
> The N-FIN agreement is still valid. The Finnish customs officers are authorized to operate for Norway, and vice versa. The zone of joint operations spans seven kilometers from the border line on both sides.


Now you've got me intrigued - does it mean that if a Finnish customs officer spots a Finnish van in Norway that is clearly overloaded with alcohol bought legally in Finland, they can legally stop it on behalf of the Norwegians?


----------



## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> Now you've got me intrigued - does it mean that if a Finnish customs officer spots a Finnish van in Norway that is clearly overloaded with alcohol bought legally in Finland, they can legally stop it on behalf of the Norwegians?


Yes it does, as long as that happens in the 7-km control zone. In practice, such an event is rare, because most joint operations take place at the six customs offices at the border.


----------



## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> If I remember rightly, the buildings were finally removed in La Jonquera because the French and Spanish police kept using them for 'random' checks, even despite multiple warnings from the European Commission to stop doing it. In Hendaye, they were removed because of the relocation of the toll booths - there were numerous accidents where cars were crashing into the toll booths at the bottom of the long, long hill on the A63.
> 
> I could be wrong here, but I think that the situation in Hendaye was very special because the area between the Spanish controls and the border was actually considered to be extraterritorial Spanish territory. It wasn't the same elsewhere. I only crossed at Irun-Hendaye from 1996 onwards, and there were numerous French and Spanish police around, but not controlling.


In the case of Mediterranean tolled motorway, booths were in Spanish territory and Catalan government was warned to have a penalty by EU if booths weren't removed (they manage issues about roads and buildings and they were in their territory)
Guess that conversely in Atlantic because booths were in France, but they were EU request. Not so strong in Atlantic because toll was so closed and congestion was assured anyway



About Andorra-Spain - that's actually a great example of how they really should be single controls, but instead, Spain maintains that large Customs building. The new crossing on the French/Andorran border is much, much better. 

BTW: I've been to Gibraltar a few days ago, and things are starting to look a little bit more serious. It looks like this:



> Entry Spain by car (Customs): only one lane open, though the Customs guys on duty were just observing and not controlling anyone.


Dogs make better job than officers, be sure. They have one out of best anti-drug teams.

BTW, have read about officers injured on duty and on top... La Linea officers due to smugglers. Mainly people who live there and small quantities but I guess why UK allow to have a so great drug warehouse in their territory


----------



## alserrod

MattiG said:


> There still may be several desks even if they are located in the same building.
> 
> The N-S, N-FIN and later the FIN-S customs operations were really joint: The officers represented both countries.
> 
> The N-FIN agreement is still valid. The Finnish customs officers are authorized to operate for Norway, and vice versa. The zone of joint operations spans seven kilometers from the border line on both sides.


When France decided to make all kind of border checks after Paris attacks, for this border pass (Bielsa tunnel) they set two 7h working shifts. Providing one hour for moving and preparing control and another one for back, they were only 12 hours operating per day.

Spanish Civil Guard offerd to make 4 extra hours of control to keep opened 6:00 to 22:00 in those months. Depending of time in day, control could be done in Spain or in France. In that point Spanish officers took same procedures as French (passport, car check and so on) and at least, tunnel could be operational 6-22


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## Penn's Woods

The U.S. and Canada don’t have exit controls at all; crossing the land border you just deal with the customs and immigration service of the country you’re entering, and on flights to Europe all I’ve done is show my passport to airline staff when checking in.
So I’m wondering what happens at exit controls that we are for whatever reason doing without?


----------



## bogdymol

How do they know you haven’t overstayed your visa allowance? Especially if driving a car across the border into Canada or Mexico...


----------



## Ronnie87

Penn's Woods said:


> The U.S. and Canada don’t have exit controls at all


No exit controls in the UK either. It seems to be an Anglo-Saxon thing :dunno:


----------



## MattiG

Penn's Woods said:


> The U.S. and Canada don’t have exit controls at all; crossing the land border you just deal with the customs and immigration service of the country you’re entering, and on flights to Europe all I’ve done is show my passport to airline staff when checking in.
> So I’m wondering what happens at exit controls that we are for whatever reason doing without?


I believe this is not the whole story. The non-residents must fill the I-94/I-94W form at the land entry. For air and sea travel, the data is nowadays delivered online by the carrier. At the exit, the exit coupon is handed to CBP, or the carrier provides the information about the exit. Thus, the process is partly outsourced to the carriers.


----------



## geogregor

MattiG said:


> I believe this is not the whole story. The non-residents must fill the I-94/I-94W form at the land entry. For air and sea travel, the data is nowadays delivered online by the carrier. At the exit, the exit coupon is handed to CBP, or the carrier provides the information about the exit. Thus, the process is partly outsourced to the carriers.


In principle you are right, in practice I wonder how well all this data from the carriers is handled. When I was applying for British citizenship a few years ago I had to fill application, including all my trips outside the UK in the previous 5 years.

Of course I couldn't remember all the trips. So I filed "freedom of information request" about myself, asking Home Office about detailas of my trips, explaining reasoning. I got answer that they don't hold any information about my travel history.

Ok, that was more than 5 years ago, things might have change since then, but seeing how inept the Home Office is at handling anything related to immigration I highly doubt it. There were numerous delays in building database of people entering and exiting the UK. I wonder if it is finally operational.

You are right about the I-94 forms. I was once crossing from Montana to Alberta. American exit booths were closed and I was waved straight to the Canadian post. They collected my I-94 and said it will be passed to the US officials.


----------



## Kpc21

Ronnie87 said:


> No exit controls in the UK either. It seems to be an Anglo-Saxon thing :dunno:


On many borders in Europe there is only one control on one side of the border, common for the exit from one country and the entry to another.


----------



## Junkie

I have seen some countries have military checks before the customs and police checks. I think this is before you approach the actual border zone. They issue some kind of a coupon. Later you have to give it back. So you have six checks to enter and exit from one former Soviet to another former Soviet country.

I have seen this on the video between Ukraine and Moldova. Also between Ukraine and Belarus.

Ukraine-Belarus crossing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpcYZ41ysG8&t=1s


----------



## Autobahn-mann

italystf said:


> How many motorways do have the sign 'last exit in X country' sign?




I remember also "last exit before toll"
https://www.google.it/maps/@45.5160...4kplS_k6g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=it&authuser=0
Note: these signs were changed


----------



## Autobahn-mann

italystf said:


> Like Tarvisio Nord junction on A23 in Italy, that can be accessed only to/from Austria.


Same on Brenner Pass on A22


----------



## Corvinus

Penn's Woods said:


> So I’m wondering what happens at exit controls that we are for whatever reason doing without?


The default procedure is to look at the travelers' IDs - they might also scan them to record the exit. I assume at Schengen external borders exits are generally recorded now. 
What else may happen is situation-dependent. Police or border guards usually look for suspicious behaviour or circumstances. In West -> East direction of crossing, this also includes looking for stolen goods and vehicles. News on the Hungarian police's web site regularly read like, "The individual ...., a national of ....., reported for exit clearance at the .... crossing. Officers became alerted by his nervous behaviour and evasive answers and subsequently discovered the vehicle he used is reported stolen by the Italian (German/Austrian/Swiss/...) police. The individual was arrested thereafter."

Exit procedures also depend on specific regulations of the country. I've heard Romanian border police is tasked with checking if the road toll has been paid for (foreign registered) vehicles to exit. From Turkey, as another example, one is not allowed to export worked stones as "souvenirs", so random luggage checks looking for that can be expected.

If a crossing is deserted and staff have plenty of time, they might also ask questions out of boredom, or to let a junior colleague practice how/what to ask and look for. I've experienced this with Hungarian police at H -> HR crossing.


----------



## Ronnie87

Exit checks are also indispensable for accurate immigration statistics. Otherwise the government has accurate figures only about the inflow, but not the outflow of people. How do they know how many people have overstayed their visas and remained illegally in the country without a way of recording their departure? hno: This is actually an issue in the UK, which renders the immigration statistics of the government little better than guesswork.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ I think the impact of this is very little compared to the massive intrusion in the people's freedom of movement and the basic concept of "any person has the right to leave any State" as per the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 13...


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## alserrod

AFAIK, that brigde is railway and the only border pass between North Korea and Russia, isn't it?


----------



## Kpc21

Will it be here: https://goo.gl/maps/apwjfcnSEo52 ?

It must be so.

Then this will be this very bridge once successfully crossed on the board of a train by nachalnik


----------



## OulaL

The text is in Korean and Chinese... is it intended for Koreans living in China? Or South Korean tourists? Surely North Koreans themselves are not allowed to visit this place.

EDIT: it seems Korean is actually the official minority language in Yanbian prefecture in People's Republic of China.


----------



## alserrod

I reckon South Korean tourists will be atop. For the rest of people is in the last corner of the workd and has no more interest than a tripoint (not a single tripoint indeed, but a border crossing only)

For South Koreans... another point to view North Korea


----------



## Kanadzie

OulaL said:


> The text is in Korean and Chinese... is it intended for Koreans living in China? Or South Korean tourists? Surely North Koreans themselves are not allowed to visit this place.
> 
> EDIT: it seems Korean is actually the official minority language in Yanbian prefecture in People's Republic of China.


^^ yeah, it is kind of weird that that area is in PRC
it is like more Korean than Sudetenland was :lol:


----------



## Electricspider

Hey, I recently joined and remembered vaguely seeing a picture of two small sentry huts on a border, with the striped poles on either side. I remember one may have been polish?
If anyone knows about the picture or has something similar, then any help would be appreciated. Love this thread more than any on this site, combined with a random number generator for the pages it can be quite fun


----------



## Eulanthe

Just some more maritime (pedestrian) borders:

https://youtu.be/ZHRb3uGYfgw?t=440 (starts at 7:20) - this is the arrival into the Port of Tallinn, D Terminal. What's interesting is that the old passport control infrastructure remains in place (from 7:45 onwards) despite the D terminal not being used for passport control anymore. Customs controls are still present (in theory), too, but passengers aren't separated between those arriving from/via Aland and those arriving from Helsinki. 

https://youtu.be/1HCft5IGiHY?t=405 - (video begins at 6:45) this is quite interesting. It shows the arrival into the Viking Line terminal in Stockholm, but what might surprise some people is the lack of the EU blue lane here for Customs controls. There's only the Red and Green channels as all traffic is coming via Aland, and as the signs say - "non-intra community travellers" - in other words, all traffic is coming from outside the EU fiscal area. 

Why is this strange? Well, in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dOVJYEgDbw (starts at 3:14) - you can see the arrival into the Tallink Värtahamnen terminal in Stockholm. Here, the EU Customs blue lane is present, although most arrivals are via Aland. 

Another interesting place - this time, from the Viking Line terminal in Helsinki. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y1vsrus7II - video starts at 4:59. This is interesting for the fact that there are not only visible Customs officers present, but also because of the red/green/blue lines on the floor.


----------



## GrownKid

Electricspider said:


> Hey, I recently joined and remembered vaguely seeing a picture of two small sentry huts on a border, with the striped poles on either side. I remember one may have been polish?
> If anyone knows about the picture or has something similar, then any help would be appreciated. Love this thread more than any on this site, combined with a random number generator for the pages it can be quite fun


I found this post from the Guardian, abandoned border huts - let me see if I can post the link here (I'm novice here too): https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2016/apr/12/europes-abandoned-border-posts-eu-in-pictures


----------



## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> Just some more maritime (pedestrian) borders:
> 
> https://youtu.be/ZHRb3uGYfgw?t=440 (starts at 7:20) - this is the arrival into the Port of Tallinn, D Terminal. What's interesting is that the old passport control infrastructure remains in place (from 7:45 onwards) despite the D terminal not being used for passport control anymore. Customs controls are still present (in theory), too, but passengers aren't separated between those arriving from/via Aland and those arriving from Helsinki.
> 
> https://youtu.be/1HCft5IGiHY?t=405 - (video begins at 6:45) this is quite interesting. It shows the arrival into the Viking Line terminal in Stockholm, but what might surprise some people is the lack of the EU blue lane here for Customs controls. There's only the Red and Green channels as all traffic is coming via Aland, and as the signs say - "non-intra community travellers" - in other words, all traffic is coming from outside the EU fiscal area.
> 
> Why is this strange? Well, in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dOVJYEgDbw (starts at 3:14) - you can see the arrival into the Tallink Värtahamnen terminal in Stockholm. Here, the EU Customs blue lane is present, although most arrivals are via Aland.
> 
> Another interesting place - this time, from the Viking Line terminal in Helsinki. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y1vsrus7II - video starts at 4:59. This is interesting for the fact that there are not only visible Customs officers present, but also because of the red/green/blue lines on the floor.


The blue line is for intra-EU travellers, not for Intra-EU-Customs-Area travellers.

The passenger terminals at the Port of Helsinki are owned by the city Helsinki, not by the shipping companies. The structures for managing travellers from outside EU are in place for obvious reasons, even if there is currently no such regular traffic in all terminals.


----------



## Eulanthe

Are you sure that the blue line isn't for Intra-EU-Customs-Area travellers? It's made quite clear in airports that you have to use the green line if you come from places such as Gibraltar and the Canary Islands, even though they're both in the EU but outside the fiscal territory. 

About Helsinki - of course, you're right. I also completely forgot about the St Peter Line / Moby Line service to St Petersburg.

Another one, this time in Tallinn at the Linda Line terminal at Linnahall - https://youtu.be/qYpgLs7uDgU?t=204 (starts at 3:24) - and I think the Estonian police are guarding here? I don't know how it worked before Schengen, but I *think* passport controls were conducted inside the terminal for both arrivals and departures?


----------



## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> Are you sure that the blue line isn't for Intra-EU-Customs-Area travellers? It's made quite clear in airports that you have to use the green line if you come from places such as Gibraltar and the Canary Islands, even though they're both in the EU but outside the fiscal territory.


Yes, they are.

In my homecity there aren't many flights even if it is the 5th city in Spain. Reason?, Both Madrid and Barcelona airports are 300 km away and have HSL service.

There are some low cost companies and some other companies that operates in summer (we wonder how it is possible to have Balearic destination with FOUR different companies despite it is a poorly used airport). In addition, there are some charter flight for long-weekends with holiday-packs.


When you get in baggage claim you can see some signs where they advice you that all passengers coming from Canary islands must declare their goods.
I do not know about some other flights (all of them come from EU) or some special charter flights (it is possible to prepare a flight to northern Africa on long weekends or so) but it is clear... if you come from Canary island... go to "goods to declare".

Customs are really small... just a desk to declare or go through not to declare. I do not remember news about smuggling (you must import a lot of tobacco to worth a flight from Canary islands and would be caught by scanner) and do not remember random checks... There are police but not many. Anyways, advice about Canary islands (when there are while all the year flights to Romania, Belgium, Italy, UK...) is there.


About passports, for departures, there are two separate areas for Schengen and non-Schengen destination (despite you must walk to plane later and must check each passenger go to their plane). I do not know about arrivals... last time I came from a non-Schengen origin.... Schengen treaty didn't exist at all (I use to take other airports due to lack of flights but if possible to arrive home, some hours saved)


----------



## Eulanthe

Another maritime crossing, this time in Gdańsk in Poland - https://www.trojmiasto.pl/wiadomosci/Prom-Polferries-od-maja-juz-na-Westerplatte-n89964.html 

If you click on the video, there's footage of how the passport control areas work, though nothing arrives here that requires passport control. 

https://www.trojmiasto.pl/wiadomosci/Witamy-w-strefie-Schengen-n26210.html# - there's also a picture here of how passport control used to look like in the old Polferries terminal.


----------



## GrownKid

Great story about once-divided village of Modlareuth: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5505301/German-town-M-dlareuth-split-East-West.html


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## kokomo

The Neum strip in Bosnia always intrigued me! When I was at school, it was still part of old Yugoslavia so I never found out why Bosnia interrupted Croatia. Is it a fast crossing by car nowadays? Or does Police stop you for passport control on passing by cars?

I remember last year when entering by train from Italy into France at Ventimiglia, French police officers boarded the train and roamed through the coaches selectively asking for IDs. Another interesting example is at St Pancras when you present for passport to exit the UK, walk three metres and then present it once again for entering the UE. Also, when you take the Centovalli express from Domodossola to Locarno they never check anything when you cross the boundary.


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## tfd543

Neum is a regular border crossing as all others. The control can be detailed from time to time. It depends on the mood of the officer and What passport you have, Lol. Just kiddin. You know, Neum was given deliberately for protection from Venice. Truth is that many people down there still think it was a present from tito to bih but thats a hoax.


----------



## BL2

tfd543 said:


> Neum is a regular border crossing as all others. The control can be detailed from time to time. It depends on the mood of the officer and What passport you have, Lol. Just kiddin. You know, Neum was *given *deliberately for protection from Venice. Truth is that many people down there still think it was a present from tito to bih but thats a hoax.


sold, not given


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## tfd543

BL2 said:


> sold, not given


thnx.


----------



## Eulanthe

kokomo said:


> Is it a fast crossing by car nowadays? Or does Police stop you for passport control on passing by cars?


Croatian police are checking passports on entry and exit, though they tend to be a bit less thorough on exit. BiH police are more or less invisible for tourists, and they rarely check anything but a quick visual check of the passport. It used to be much more laid back, with both Croatian and Bosnian police waving people through if they were obvious tourists or locals. Croatia now enforces rules such as ensuring that people have multiple entry visas, or making sure that non-local BiH citizens have sufficient funds. Generally speaking, Croatia issues multiple entry visas as the norm due to the Neum corridor, but it does happen that they issue single entry visas.


----------



## Eulanthe

Just for fun, a picture of the pre-Schengen Slovenian border crossing with Croatia at Razkrižje. 










These "containers" were a common sight on smaller border crossings with Croatia in pre-Schengen days, but they disappeared with the upgrading of crossings to Schengen standards.


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## Eulanthe

Another curious one - this time, the small river crossing between Austria and Slovenia at Sladki Vrh.


----------



## Eulanthe

An interesting picture: this is of the old German/Polish border crossing at Świecko in 1991. As you can see, this border crossing was in really terrible condition at that time - it was improved with the opening of the Customs terminal in the mid 1990's, but this area wasn't upgraded until the start of the 2000's.


----------



## OulaL

Do you get BiH entry stamps from Neum (or anywhere)?

If you enter BiH in Neum, then travel inland and exit somewhere else (like, say, to Serbia), would there be a problem with a missing entry stamp?


----------



## tomzyl

No, because polish people can travel to BiH, Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia by ID card or passport. We get stamps only on Croatia Montenegro border.


----------



## tfd543

How can that be true. They can stamp your passport if they wish to since you are entering their country. Sometimes they close their eyes and ignores it. Has happened to me and No problem with that. 

I am actually interested knowing the correlation between the stamps on the passport and the amount of info the officers can see in the computer when scanning it. Can they trace you back for Lets say 1 month, 1 year, 10 years and examine all your journeys with that particular passport ? In the past, i have used both of my passports for a journey. I used my EU one within EU and my non-EU upon entering the Non-EU country because i knew the control would be faster for the locals but they cant know that I used my EU passport in the start of the journey. Know What i mean ?...


----------



## Kanadzie

Eulanthe said:


> An interesting picture: this is of the old German/Polish border crossing at Świecko in 1991. As you can see, this border crossing was in really terrible condition at that time - it was improved with the opening of the Customs terminal in the mid 1990's, but *this area wasn't upgraded until the start of the 2000's. *


what a waste of taxpayer money hno:


----------



## Kpc21

tfd543 said:


> How can that be true. They can stamp your passport if they wish to since you are entering their country.


And what if you are allowed to enter their country with ID only? How would they stamp a plastic card?


----------



## bogdymol

I traveled from Croatia to both Bosnia and Montenegro, using my passport, but I didn’t receive any stamp.


----------



## Eulanthe

OulaL said:


> Do you get BiH entry stamps from Neum (or anywhere)?


Yeah, they stamp in/out if you use a passport, though at busy crossings, they might just wave you through if you don't specifically ask for a stamp. It really depends on the crossing and the attitude of the person working, though they're more systematic about non-EU citizens. 



Kanadzie said:


> what a waste of taxpayer money


It wasn't actually much of an upgrade, but it was badly needed. The old huts weren't heated, didn't have air conditioning and the overall technical condition was really bad, even by Poland in 2000 standards. Remember that in 2000-2001, it wasn't certain that Poland would join the EU in 2004, and no-one expected Poland and others to join Schengen so quickly.


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## BL2

They rarely stamp passports. They don't bother


----------



## Verso

I was in Turkey last week and I noticed they'd changed their passport stamps to the EU model.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Verso said:


> I was in Turkey last week and I noticed they'd changed their passport stamps to the EU model.


----------



## Eulanthe

Just to follow on the topic of Polish-German border infrastructure in the 1990's - I found this interesting document from 1999:

http://freecases.eu/Doc/CourtAct/3628694

And another historical curiosity, this time on the A24 in West Germany (border crossing with the DDR).


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## alserrod

At this time, what kind of interest does it have to stamp a passport?. Even if for controlling inmigration, I could lose it and request a new one in the embassy, thus no stamps in a new passport


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> At this time, what kind of interest does it have to stamp a passport?. Even if for controlling inmigration, I could lose it and request a new one in the embassy, thus no stamps in a new passport


It depends on the country - for instance, in the UK, it acts as an official document to prove your stay. In Schengen, it's purely for informational purposes and carries no legal weight, which is why the "all third country passports must be stamped" rule was never really enforced in the past.


----------



## alserrod

About 20 years ago I wanted to have an UK stamp in my passport just to remember trip and officer said no stamps, sorry.

As EU citizen I can entry in UK with ID card (despite it is known that to avoid problems better have a passport for UK and people ask for it). Ok, I entry with a passport, police stamp it and I lose it. I go to embassy and get a new one... obviosly without stamps. What does it prove?


----------



## ScraperDude

Me being the border nerd that I am, this one area has always left me with questions. 

I am American so I always thought the "Iron Curtain " areas of Europe were heavily guarded and fenced off. 

There is a road near Matjaševci, Slovenia that straddles the border with Austria. You can see the border stones on each side of the road in numerous spots. 
Does anyone know anything about this area and the history? 










The structures in this pic are in Austria but the driveway accss is to Slovenia. The border stone is in the upper right


----------



## BL2

^^


> I am American so I always thought the "Iron Curtain " areas of Europe were heavily guarded and fenced off.


First of all Yugoslavia (Slovenia) wasn't behind Iron Curtain. It was part of non-aligned world. I mean just read in Wikipidia about Iron Curtain. You can even find maps there.


----------



## Verso

Austria and Yugoslavia weren't the best friends though, and Hungary was very close...


----------



## Eulanthe

ScraperDude said:



> Does anyone know anything about this area and the history?


I don't know this exact area so I can't comment, but a quick history lesson:

Austria only regained full sovereignty in 1955, while Yugoslavs were prohibited from emigrating until 1961. For that reason, the border would have been heavily guarded up until the 1960's, when Yugoslavia eased restrictions. By the start of the 1970's, it's likely that border was nothing more than a green border, especially as both Yugoslavia and Austria were internationally neutral and had normalised relations with each other. 

So, about Yugoslavia in particular - by the early 1970's, it was effectively a Western country in terms of things like border security. Only the economic crisis of the early 1980's brought some weird things like mandatory exit currency deposits, but in general, the border with Austria wasn't heavily guarded as there was simply no reason to do so.


----------



## haddockman

So was it easy to pass from Bulgaria into Yugoslavia?


----------



## volodaaaa

Kpc21 said:


> Poland-Ukraine border in Korczowa:
> 
> Even though Ukraine joining Schengen in the near future is not a likely story, they are ready for Schengen just now.


I doubt that. They have problem with border line integrity at least at two places. Unless the idea of Schengen changed radically (in the wake of 2015 crisis).

Maybe a short essay on what does Schengen mean to me:

Imagine a house with 40 apartments. The inhabitants do not get along well with each other, thus everyone equip their apartment with a strong, heavy and unbreakable door. The common spaces are neglected. The main entrance door is broken and does not prevent potential threat from getting in. But apartments are nice.

One day, inhabitants start to be more conscious about their house and start to trust to each other. Together they repair the common spaces and buy the brand new unbreakable door. They gradually become almost a single family and thus they start to see their apartment doors as an obstacle. They have not been locking the doors for a while and thus they decide to dismount the doors to grant the freedom of movement of people and goods.

But single rule should be followed: the easier is to get from apartment to apartment, the more difficult it should be to get from outside to interior. 

An apartment in this short story represents a country, inner doors are internal Schengen border lines, the entrance door is outer Schengen border lines. 

Ukraine in Schengen means having a strong unbreakable door next to a hole the potential threat can get in. This worked until 2015 when Ms Merkel switched to the wrong track and dismounted the main door. Some countries tried to block the main entrance with illegal means, while some reinforced their inner doors, all deliberately undermining the whole idea of Schengen.


----------



## Kpc21

volodaaaa said:


> I doubt that.


But I also said is unlikely 

It's obvious that with the current Russia border problems Ukraine has no chance of joining Schengen.

Some even say Russia does it just to make it impossible for Ukraine to join NATO and EU.



> Ukraine in Schengen means having a strong unbreakable door next to a hole the potential threat can get in. This worked until 2015 when Ms Merkel switched to the wrong track and dismounted the main door. Some countries tried to block the main entrance with illegal means, while some reinforced their inner doors, all deliberately undermining the whole idea of Schengen.


That's true. I wouldn't really say Merkel dismounted the main door. Actually, there are some apartments on the ground floor that have also doors from outside. Those doors (maritime borders of the countries like Greece) were already weak. And what Merkel said caused massive inflow of intruders who discovered how easy it is to force those doors.

One may only argue they are not intruders. But people asking for help. However, there is a limited amount of help you can give to someone and secondly, one thing is if someone wants to pay somehow for this help, for example, by taking the jobs for which it's difficult to find employees, another thing is if he will live only from the social benefits offered by your country.


----------



## Junkie

SFRY-Austria border in the 70s










The army guarding the SFRY border to Austria


----------



## FabriFlorence

Kpc21 said:


> Poland-Ukraine border in Korczowa:
> 
> 
> 
> Even though Ukraine joining Schengen in the near future is not a likely story, they are ready for Schengen just now.


Why it's closed? Is Ukraine waiting to join in Schengen area to open that border?


----------



## italystf

Giving the current situation, Ukraine (or any other non EU member) won't join Schengen or EU anytime soon.


----------



## bogdymol

^^ As it currently looks like, it's not easy even for EU-members to get into Schengen. Schengen has closed it's gates for the moment...


----------



## Kpc21

All the Polish inner-Schengen borders are open.



FabriFlorence said:


> Why it's closed? Is Ukraine waiting to join in Schengen area to open that border?


They will probably still wait many years for that (they are not even in the EU, actually, they only recently actually freed from the influence of Russia, to which Russia reacted... you know how), but it doesn't change the fact that they already got prepared.

There is a border crossing point built next to the motorway, so you exit the motorway onto that point, cross the border and return onto the highway.


----------



## Junkie

I don't think that Ukraine might "join" EU before 2040. The next eventual enlargements are focused on the Balkan countries and they might become members after 2030 or most of them after 2032. So most probably the borders will become much tougher and much complex issues in the near future.


----------



## Eulanthe

Kpc21 said:


> All the Polish inner-Schengen borders are open.


Not all, there are still a couple of closed bridges near Zittau I think, and many borders have artificial weight limits placed on them. There seemed to be a very deliberate plan on the part of the Poles and Czechs to limit many crossings to cars only, even on main roads such as at Lubawka which still has only a 9 tonne limit.


----------



## italystf

There was an international road between Italy and Yugoslavia between 1919 and 1943.
Zara (Zadar) was an Italian exclave in Yugoslavia.
The median of the present-day road Ž6262 marked the border between the two countries. That road was numbered SS137 according to Italian road classification and it was in use even if it straddled across two countries.

https://www.google.it/maps/@44.0981...25.513275&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## Junkie

^^
27 years it was an exclave and bordered the Kingdom of SHS. Later Tito incorporated this area in the Second Yugoslavia.


----------



## Kpc21

Eulanthe said:


> Not all, there are still a couple of closed bridges near Zittau I think, and many borders have artificial weight limits placed on them. There seemed to be a very deliberate plan on the part of the Poles and Czechs to limit many crossings to cars only, even on main roads such as at Lubawka which still has only a 9 tonne limit.


But it's because of natural frontiers (like a river, for which you need a bridge, which can be simply too weak to bear heavy vehicles) or because of traffic management (they don't want trucks using the road through towns) and not because of Schengen problems...


----------



## ScraperDude

Junkie said:


> ^^
> 27 years it was an exclave and bordered the Kingdom of SHS. Later Tito incorporated this area in the Second Yugoslavia.
> 
> Are there any border markers left or were thay all possibly removed?


----------



## Eulanthe

ScraperDude said:


> Are there any border markers left or were they all possibly removed?


Nothing at all, as far as I know. There's the remains of what I *think* was a building for border guards here though.


----------



## Junkie

Bogorodica-Evzonoi (MK-GR)

This border is becoming one of the main bottlenecks in summer in the whole E-75 corridor and possibly in Southeastern Europe.

As the last highway u/c section of 30km finally opened for traffic in MK it is a terrible bottleneck as the central and east European tourists are massively heading towards GR.


----------



## SRC_100

^^
What other border crossing can you get past this traffic jam on the main border? 
How many hours tourists is going to waiting in this traffic jam?


----------



## italystf

^^ At least the migrant crisis is not that bad compared to 2015/16.


----------



## Alex_ZR

SRC_100 said:


> ^^
> What other border crossing can you get past this traffic jam on the main border?
> How many hours tourists is going to waiting in this traffic jam?


Tourists from Serbia use Star Dojran (MK) - Doirani (GR) as an alternative.


----------



## Eulanthe

Junkie said:


> Bogorodica-Evzonoi (MK-GR)
> 
> This border is becoming one of the main bottlenecks in summer in the whole E-75 corridor and possibly in Southeastern Europe.


Is this not because the Macedonian buildings are dating from the Yugoslavia era, and the Greek ones are similarly old?

When I crossed there, the Greek border guards were completely disinterested, while the Macedonian ones were checking the insurance of every single non-MKD car crossing.


----------



## Junkie

This crossing is international corridor so the booths are large from the both sides. It is not local crossing so there are kilometers of congestion during the summer months.

You also need green card insurance to enter some Balkan countries including MK. Without green card you cannot enter MK.
For example Serbia abolished and withdraw from the association and you don't need it but for the other non-eu Balkan countries it is mandatory.


----------



## joza_gulikoza

CZ - AUT: Hardegg, border river Dyje/Thaya.


----------



## joza_gulikoza

I have found some more pictures of different border crossings from my bicycle trips ....

Germany - Austria (on Danube cycle route)









Slovakia - Austria (again on Danube cycle route, Berg?)









Slovakia - Hungary (Danube bridge - Šturovo/Esztergom)









Croatia - Hungary (old border pass Goričan - Letenye, Mura bridge)









Slovenia - Italy (cycle path next to Rateče)









Austria - Italy (old road Vilach - Travisio - SS13, Alpe-Adria bike route)









I think that will be enough ... 

EDIT: sorry ... pics are gone, due to SSL issue :/


----------



## Eulanthe

An interesting historical picture - this is of the A12 (Netherlands) / A3 (German) border in 1989. Despite the fact that there were still customs and passport controls between West Germany and the Netherlands, the reality of the situation was that systematic controls had been abandoned. You can see here how a 10km limit was imposed so that traffic could be observed, but for practical purposes, border controls had been abandoned for passenger traffic after the Schengen agreement had been signed (but not implemented) 

More here.

Another interesting picture here, undated, but probably from the mid 1980's. One interesting thing about the 1980's is that traffic was increasing, yet most borders were really substandard in facilities compared to today's Schengen borders.


----------



## Eulanthe

Not sure if this will work...

edit: Nope, doesn't work. I've found a great picture of the border crossing in Frankfurt (Oder) in the 1990's, but alas, the website is banned here. 

Either way, to add to previous discussions about the border in FFO, it seems that the 'new' (as in late 1990's / early 2000's) border infrastructure was being constructed in September 1996.


----------



## Kpc21

Either download the photo and upload it to an external server (but you should anyway name the author or, at least, the source next to it to be OK with the copyright), or give the link in the


Code:


 tags, but just replace some dots in the address with spaces.


----------



## Eulanthe

Kpc21 said:


> Either download the photo and upload it to an external server (but you should anyway name the author or, at least, the source next to it to be OK with the copyright), or give the link in the
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> tags, but just replace some dots in the address with spaces.[/QUOTE]
> 
> Is it OK to do so? I don't want to get banned for it, but of course, full credit will be given. It would be easier to use the [code] tags because it's historically important, yet the original source should be seen.
> 
> It really is astonishing just how bad the German-Polish border crossings were in the 1990's. I understand why the ones on the Polish side might have been run down, but it very much looks like the ones on the German side weren't much better, even though the economical differences were huge between Poland and Germany at that time.


----------



## Kpc21

I think so, I don't know about any pages banned here "because so". It's sometimes done e.g. because the website is protected from hot linking. I heard about a case of a website which was protected in such a way that the photos when hot linked were replaced with other ones from their database which resulted in some 18+ or obscene photos appearing in the forum, or ones so big that they were causing crashing the browser in everyone opening that thread (it was in the times when the computers weren't so fast as now).

I myself reported one website for such a ban - a local public transport gallery from Łódź, gtlodz dot eu - because they are protected from hot linking in such a way that a hot linked photo loads in extremely low quality. And then even if you visit the photo properly on the website, it remains displaying in that low quality. Until you clear the browser cache or do the "hard refresh" on that website which not everyone knows how to do (it's Ctrl+Shift+R in most browsers, instead of Ctrl+R, which is a normal refresh). It was better to ban it rather than have problems with photos displaying incorrectly.

Concerning the topic bear in mind that it was a short time after the German reunification and the former East Germany areas might have still not been so well developed.


----------



## BL2

Eulanthe said:


> Is it OK to do so? I don't want to get banned for it, but of course, full credit will be given. It would be easier to use the
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> tags because it's historically important, yet the original source should be seen.
> 
> It really is astonishing just how bad the German-Polish border crossings were in the 1990's. I understand why the ones on the Polish side might have been run down, but it very much looks like the ones on the German side weren't much better, even though the economical [B]differences were huge between Poland and Germany at that time.[/B][/QUOTE]you are talking about East Germany and Poland


----------



## pedro molina

Crossing from Mexico to USA is all an experience. On holidays it could take you up to 10 hours!


----------



## Eulanthe

Kpc21 said:


> I think so, I don't know about any pages banned here "because so".


Thanks, I'll do it tonight. I've found a lot of really interesting images, so it would be nice to share them with everyone.



> Concerning the topic bear in mind that it was a short time after the German reunification and the former East Germany areas might have still not been so well developed.


Yes, it seems so. It's quite interesting, because you can really see how run down and poorly equipped the crossings were in the late 1990's compared to how today's Schengen borders look. 

An interesting video - this is of the toll booths and customs controls within the Grand Bernard Tunnel - 

https://youtu.be/0gOwzUdSAcw?t=111

Not sure if this is before or after Schengen. I think it's before, because the "stop: police" sign is there - but I'm not certain.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

https://recurut.eu/images/ruta-1/militares-nazis-en-el-puente-internacional.jpg
hendaye-irun border 1940


----------



## VITORIA MAN

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BkVOfhi-...wAvqS8zAU3XOdd1Hn9FBEtGwCLcB/s1600/inaug5.jpg









1941


----------



## VITORIA MAN

http://www.blamont.info/images/cartescanton/avricourt/frontiere/carte77.jpg








f-g border in avricourt


----------



## kokomo

VITORIA MAN said:


> 1941


What is the guy on the right exactly doing? Peeing? :nuts:


----------



## Palance

kokomo said:


> What is the guy on the right exactly doing? Peeing? :nuts:


Checking his smartphone :lol:


----------



## Kanadzie

pedro molina said:


> Crossing from Mexico to USA is all an experience. On holidays it could take you up to 10 hours!


It depends, I crossed into USA with the Tijuana pedestrian crossing and had no line at all, and only spent 60-90 seconds with the border guard. And I'm not US citizen...


----------



## bogdymol

*Bulgarian cow sentenced to death for wandering outside of EU*


----------



## VITORIA MAN

new border f-d in 1940 ( la lobe - lorraine )








http://www.memorial-alsace-moselle....ent-de-la-frontiè[email protected]


----------



## Junkie

bogdymol said:


> *Bulgarian cow sentenced to death for wandering outside of EU*


It is about the human stupidity and the supernatural organizations like the EU. As it says in the article, according to the EU regulations the cattle cannot be "accepted back".


----------



## Verso

Junkie said:


> It is about the human stupidity and the supernatural organizations like the EU. As it says in the article, according to the EU regulations the cattle cannot be "accepted back".


The EU is a supernatural organization?


----------



## alserrod

Proof Sheet said:


> I wonder if there will be any articles about the scene/situation on the France/Belgium border when the two play each other in the World Cup semi final on Tuesday. The border crosses through many towns with pubs/bars in different countries very close to one another.


someone wrote about border Germany-Belgium in a football match

It would be interested

Regarding French borders, this years Tour de France is going to be only in France, approaching too much to Italy (near international tunnel), Spain, and specially Belgium, where near Lille they will be 500m away of border or so


----------



## Proof Sheet

alserrod said:


> someone wrote about border Germany-Belgium in a football match
> 
> It would be interested
> 
> Regarding French borders, this years Tour de France is going to be only in France, approaching too much to Italy (near international tunnel), Spain, and specially Belgium, where near Lille they will be 500m away of border or so


Re: tour de france. That is unusual. Most years they cross into either Belgium, Spain or Italy


----------



## bogdymol

I've been yesterday in Braunau am Inn (Austria) and crossed by foot the Inn bridge to Simbach am Inn (Germany). On both sides of the bridge you can find the EU / Austria+Upper Austria / Germany+Bavaria flags, but there's no sign whatsoever to tell you that you are crossing in a different country.

https://goo.gl/maps/iueJnAB1DMQ2


----------



## alserrod

Proof Sheet said:


> Re: tour de france. That is unusual. Most years they cross into either Belgium, Spain or Italy


Even Andorra. They payed a lot of money to have main stage in La Vuelta and some years ago they preferred to have Le Tour, just to change.

This year the record is boundaring Belgium but not crossing border


----------



## abdeka

*Algeria - Tunisia Oum T'boul border checkpoint. Summer rush.*


https://www.facebook.com/zizou.boumerfeg?fref=gs&dti=482685835133531&hc_location=group_dialog


----------



## CNGL

alserrod said:


> someone wrote about border Germany-Belgium in a football match
> 
> It would be interested
> 
> Regarding French borders, this years Tour de France is going to be only in France, approaching too much to Italy (near international tunnel), Spain, and specially Belgium, where near Lille they will be 500m away of border or so


Ahem... stage 16 will enter Spain, as they will climb Portillon pass just before finish.


----------



## alserrod

mistake!, it's correct


----------



## alserrod

A trekking border crossing



It is one out of numbered borderstones that are in the middle of F-E border. Not so big as any other ones but same format.

I could only read number 309 and not easy to guess it. It was from French side. Nothing about E-F, and nothing in Spanish side.

Border was "partially fenced". Due to there are cows in the French area, there is a wire just besides the border and a sort of pedestrian pass that let any person walk turning around but impossible to cows (up in the hills, no wire, impossible cows reach there). Wire was 40cm inside France or so.

I do not remember if in the same border or inside France but they are signs in French, and bad translation into Spanish for trekkers


----------



## alserrod

And the most known in the Pyrenees. Summus Portus = Somport




When bus service Oloron-Canfranc(nowadays Bedous-Canfranc) started, it had a bus stop in the border, about 10m inside France.

nowadays they make it conversely, they start from border (or 1 km below, from ski resort in winter), go to Canfranc without stops, call in from of station and go to France through tunnel

These are schedules in the border




Borderstone from France. Starting atop, Napoleon and later other people who worked in that road up to a single worker named there



in google maps

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.795...4!1svaTcGqvW6-uYw56C8f-u9w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Maybe the most famous pic. Border is exactly in the plate over the wall

http://s394.photobucket.com/user/al...80714_171322_zps00ptv2y7.jpg.html?sort=3&o=15


----------



## pai nosso

*Portugal (Campo Maior) / Spain (Badajoz)* » Location


Source: pai nosso


----------



## pai nosso

*Spain (Ayamonte) / Portugal (Castro Marim)* » Location

1-A-49


2-A-49


3-International Bridge over the Guadiana River


4-A22

Source: pai nosso


----------



## alserrod

Bridge was opened in 1992 and called "5th centuary" 'cos it was 500 years America discovery anniversary.

Before that bridge, nearest border pass was 50 km away or so. Nowadays it is a fast motorway over Atlantic


----------



## pai nosso

alserrod said:


> Bridge was opened in 1992 and called "5th centuary" 'cos it was 500 years America discovery anniversary.


In Portugal it was always called the International Bridge over the Guadiana



alserrod said:


> Before that bridge, nearest border pass was 50 km away or so. Nowadays it is a fast motorway over Atlantic


The only official land border was in V. V. de Ficalho/Rosal de la Frontera!:nuts:


The unofficial was north of Pomarão!!:lol:


----------



## haddockman

What's the sign "foreigners" must exit about?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Portuguese electronic tolls.


----------



## Boltzman

alserrod said:


> Bridge was opened in 1992 and called "5th centuary" 'cos it was 500 years America discovery anniversary.


The V Centennial Bridge is in Seville, here:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/P...73a55a655bbecc9!8m2!3d37.3488463!4d-5.9931345

The motorway A-49 linking Seville to the International Bridge is calle V Centennial, too.



pai nosso said:


> In Portugal it was always called the International Bridge over the Guadiana


In Spain too :yes:


----------



## Eulanthe

haddockman said:


> What's the sign "foreigners" must exit about?


Yeah, they have an interesting approach to electronic tolls. You pull up here, insert your bank card, and the bank card is linked to the number plate of the vehicle that you're in for 30 days.

There are other systems here, but this is the one that they have at the main border crossings. 

Incidentally, this was the site of the old border crossing too. I crossed there shortly after Schengen, and the site was incredibly creepy - completely abandoned and in darkness, with only one tiny exchange office open on the whole site.



Alserrod" said:


> Before that bridge, nearest border pass was 50 km away or so[/quote
> 
> No, there was a ferry in Ayemonte too that was very busy, though as far as I know, each boat only transported a few passengers.


----------



## alserrod

haddockman said:


> What's the sign "foreigners" must exit about?


Electronic tolls. Foreigns must set on devices to pay or avoid motorway (first time you entry in Portugal, rest ones, enough to pay


----------



## Don Alessandro

Is it possible to cross the border crossing between MNE - BiH Scepan Polje as a foreigner by car?

I couldn't find any information about it, and GM photos are from last year.


----------



## Junkie

Šćepan Polje is one of the worst crossings in the Balkans. I suggest you to move south and cross between Nikšić and Trebinje. This route is also very congested during the summer.


----------



## Eulanthe

Don Alessandro said:


> Is it possible to cross the border crossing between MNE - BiH Scepan Polje as a foreigner by car?
> 
> I couldn't find any information about it, and GM photos are from last year.


All MNE crossings are international, as far as I know. I don't think they have any locals-only crossings.


----------



## Palance

According to this Bosnian document (page 11, article 22, in Bosnian language) there are 4 local crossings between BiH and MNE.

It’s from 2012, maybe things have changed since then?


----------



## NorthCyprus

CrazySerb said:


> Whatever the state, it will have to be relocated - there's no place for that in New Syria :yes:


Really? Are you the one who's authorized?


----------



## stickedy

Don Alessandro said:


> Is it possible to cross the border crossing between MNE - BiH Scepan Polje as a foreigner by car?
> 
> I couldn't find any information about it, and GM photos are from last year.


Yes, of course


----------



## Don Alessandro

Junkie said:


> Šćepan Polje is one of the worst crossings in the Balkans. I suggest you to move south and cross between Nikšić and Trebinje. This route is also very congested during the summer.


Do you mean long waiting times?

Or the way to get there?


----------



## Eulanthe

Palance said:


> According to this Bosnian document (page 11, article 22, in Bosnian language) there are 4 local crossings between BiH and MNE.
> 
> It’s from 2012, maybe things have changed since then?


No, you're right. I wonder if any of them are actually open? I've never seen pictures of any of them, or even read anything about them.


----------



## stickedy

Don Alessandro said:


> Do you mean long waiting times?
> 
> Or the way to get there?


There is hardly anybody crossing there because the road on BiH side is narrow for some kilometers and not in good shape (they did some reconstruction a few years ago, so it's most likely not that bad anymore) so there are hardly any waiting time at all. It's special if there is a car waiting before you at all...

And the way there is beside the stretch from Foca (actually some kilometers south of it, you can see where the good road finished) to the border neither congested nor bad. The Montengrin side is quite good

Is not a problem to take the crossing there!


----------



## RadoG01

Don Alessandro said:


> Do you mean long waiting times?
> 
> Or the way to get there?





The road on BIH side is really very narrow and on few segments missing asphalt (in Sep. 2017) . You can check my video from 09/2017 from MNE side (PIVSKO JEZERO) to BIH.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY9Q3FU-mAM


----------



## Eulanthe

So, I'm on holiday in Ljutomer in Slovenia, and as I've got a small child, I'm taking advantage of his naptime to explore the border area. So far, I've looked around the village of Razkrižje (including the locals/EU/EEA/CH-only border crossing there), and my observations so far - 

- The crossing here has a barrier on the Slovenian side, but the barrier is open. The road is fully accessible on both sides.

- The crossing here is interesting - you can go as far as the junction leading to the graveyard, but no more. The police were guarding the border this morning, and it seems that the actual border line is different to the one marked on OSM. The border itself is marked just after the junction - essentially you have to turn left, though there's only a small sign warning you of the border being there. I'll go back and take photos later, but it seems that this isn't actually the real border line.

The actual border crossing itself is a non-issue. I crossed six times, and they only scanned the documents once in the HR-SLO direction (only Slovenia checked) and once in the SLO-HR direction (documents checked by both HR and SLO police). Other times, I was waved through. 

What is most interesting here is that the 'one stop' control is actually one stop in practice. Most times, exit controls aren't performed, only entry controls, and only by the police belonging to the country that is being entered.

So, in short, the border is still very much being guarded here. The police guarding the unauthorised crossing were friendly, but it was very obvious that they were monitoring it and looking to catch people crossing illegally.


----------



## italystf

^^ Don't even think of crossing the Slovenia-Croatia border outside designated border controls. There are huge risks of being arrested and fined.


----------



## Eulanthe

So, I've discovered that playparks in Slovenia are rubbish (and the best ones are in schools, but they're locked up), but the playparks in Croatia are much better. So, after a long afternoon and evening travelling around, I can tell...

- The crossing between Hotiza and Sveti Martin na Muri here is completely unsigned from both SLO and HR. If you didn't know it was there, you'd never find it. Only a Slovenian exit control was carried out, there was no sign of the Croatian police, even though the checkpoint is on Croatian territory. They did check and scan all the documents, though. 

The crossing https://www.google.com/maps/@46.5205113,16.3089074,18.75z here is in terrible condition. Half of the crossing is closed down (the old entry into Slovenia half of the checkpoint), and traffic is diverted through the SLO exit side. But the most interesting thing here is the presence of barbed wire - unlike at other crossings nearby, the barbed wire fence is here, along with heavy gates so that the Slovenian border can be blocked.

This was the most interesting crossing from a border control point of view - both Slovenian and Croatian border police checked my passport, and the Croatian border guard wanted to know where I was going and how long I was going to stay in Croatia. 

Something else that is common at these local border crossings - they rarely keep the barriers up, unlike at international crossings. 

All in all, controls are laid back, and despite the frequent crossings, no-one yet has questioned me as to why. Schengen rules about the systematic recording of exits and entries isn't happening here, and when I've been with the child, only one border guard actually checked to see if the kid in the car seat actually resembled the one on the ID card (though he looks nothing like it now).

More reports tomorrow 



italystf said:


> Don't even think of crossing the Slovenia-Croatia border outside designated border controls. There are huge risks of being arrested and fined.


What I wonder - given the large amounts of open roads without controls, are there special passes for locals so that they can cross outside of designated crossings? 

And yes, it's very obvious that Slovenia is watching the border carefully. I was surprised to see the police guarding the crossing today, especially as it's just a few hundred metres from the real crossing.


----------



## Kpc21

I was recently crossing the sea border between Greece (Corfu) and Albania (Sarande). The only controls were on the Greece side, in Albania they weren't checking any documents.


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe, you're a funny tourist.


----------



## yohaniv

@SLO-CRO border:

So mr. Eulanthe, tell me what is you reason to visit our beloved grandiose country."

"Uh, ah, I just like to poke around Shengen borders. With my offspring."

I hope you do not look like pakistani or something.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> Eulanthe, you're a funny tourist.


I did even more today! There are no good playgrounds in Slovenia, so today's adventures included:

- Crossing at Razkrižje in the morning with my son. No exit control by Slovenia, grumpy bearded Croatian border guard was busy looking at trees and waved me through. He didn't even notice the 2 year old in the car... 

- Coming back, grumpy beard was curious as to why I had a British passport and why my son has a Polish ID card. He did quite a detailed check, and spent 5 minutes on his computer checking different databases. Slovenian guy was absolutely indifferent and didn't even bother to scan the documents. 

- We went to Središče ob Dravi to take the train to Čakovec (HR) and back. I'll write elsewhere about this, but in short, Slovenian exit control was just a visual check, and Croatian entry control involved scanning of passports. No Croatian exit control (mainly because we were the only passengers back to Slovenia) and the Slovenian border police laughed when we came back - no entry control too.

- The border at Središče ob Dravi (SLO) / Trnovec was nothing special - we were waved through the Slovenian exit check, and documents were only visually checked by the Croatian police. 

- Mursko središče (HR) / Petišovci was the only place where documents were scanned and checked by both Croatian and Slovenian police. They were in separate areas, but again, the control was quick.

- Hotiza (SLO) / Sveti Martin - hilarious. It's a locals-only crossing and only open between 6-22, and I crossed about 9:30 - the Slovenian police waved me through without even seeing my documents, while the Croatian guy looked to see the British passport while waving me through. Neither bothered to come out of the containers.

- Bukovje (HR) / Gibice - same police as yesterday, the Slovenian police scanned and checked the documents, the Croatian police were indifferent and uninterested.

So, after a few days of this, it seems that there is a lot of cooperation between the Croatian and Slovenian police at the 'one-stop controls'. It seems that entry controls are taken more seriously than exit controls, and the new regulation that requires systematic scanning of documents isn't happening.

One interesting thing - the Slovenian police are definitely controlling border areas. I've seen quite a few police cars waiting close to the border, and it would be very stupid to attempt an illegal crossing. 



yohaniv said:


> I hope you do not look like pakistani or something.


Would be interesting if I was, I bet the controls would be significantly stronger!

(Verso, why does Slovenia have rubbish playgrounds? It's ridiculous that I have to cross the border to visit a good one )


----------



## Verso

^^ I don't know, I'm not a kid.  And let me guess - you didn't even leave the train in Čakovec, right? :lol:


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> ^^ I don't know, I'm not a kid.  And let me guess - you didn't even leave the train in Čakovec, right? :lol:


I did! I looked around the station and got amused by some poster that talked about the history of the line to the 'state border'  I had 12 minutes, I had to explore! One good thing about having a 2 year old is that no-one questions you as to what you're doing there  

I've crossed a few more times today so far to visit the playground and to buy apples:

Razkrižje (entry SLO) - waved through on exit, 2 year old ignored
Gibice - passport and ID card checked, not interested in the fact that I had a kid with me
Razkrižje (second time, entry HR) - waved through again
Razkrižje (third time, entry HR) - documents scanned on entry, the chip in my passport is now broken after several days of abuse  

I wonder where to go this afternoon once the kid wakes up


----------



## Alex_ZR

Eulanthe said:


> No exit control by Slovenia, grumpy bearded Croatian border guard was busy looking at trees and waved me through. He didn't even notice the 2 year old in the car...
> 
> - Coming back, grumpy beard was curious as to why I had a British passport and why my son has a Polish ID card.


Two year old kids in Poland have ID cards?


----------



## Kpc21

Normally not but you can get one. Useful when you want to go with the child abroad within the EU and you don't want to get a passport for it. A passport costs some money, ID is free of charge. And to get a passport you must go to a bigger city (with a voivodeship office or is delegature) while for an ID you just go to the town hall of your municipality. And for a child, if I remember well, above 12, to get a passport for it, both parents must go together to the office with the child, for an ID card one parent is enough. Not sure if the child is needed - probably yes, to confirm the authenticity of the photo. For a passport it must be present because they take the fingerprints.

For children, the validity periods of the documents are shorter, like 5 years instead of 10 years in case of an ID.


----------



## Attus

Eulanthe said:


> I've crossed a few more times today so far


You wrote your passport was scanned several times, I suppose your data was saved in a database. Has no one ever asked why you crossed the border several times a day?

One of my worst border crossings happened in 1999 at some secondary crossing point from Austria to Slovenia. I had a crazy night, drove from SLO to A at Ljubelj/Loibl after midnight and got a stamp in my passport. When I arrived to another border station early morning, the border officers saw I had a stamp of the same day. It was a small station, I suppose they have never seen any Hungarian cars/travellers there and having a stamp from the same night, they obviously thought I must have been a smuggler. 

A British citizen crossing the HR-SLO border the fourth time in the same day should be suspicious.


----------



## Junkie

Does anyone have any information regarding the new eu etias system that should be launched in a matter of year or so, what will be the effect on the third country citizens e.g non-eu?

If this system will collect information about travel journeys such as how long you are staying it must be because it will be designed to stop those staying more than 90 days in 180 days as tourists or illegal workers.

I think this system will be bad for countries that are not part of the eu because the citizens (we in the example) will have to pay money and register in advance in order to travel short stay. I even read that they will review the info on hand, so no automatic and fast processing. It is a pity.


----------



## Verso

Attus, which border crossing was it?


----------



## Eulanthe

Kpc21 said:


> And to get a passport you must go to a bigger city (with a voivodeship office or is delegature) while for an ID you just go to the town hall of your municipality. And for a child, if I remember well, above 12, to get a passport for it, both parents must go together to the office with the child, for an ID card one parent is enough.


Yeah, I picked up my child's ID card, even as a foreigner in Poland. Getting a passport is a waste of time for EU travel, especially as the ID card just fits in my wallet easily. If it gets lost, it's also easily replaced. 



> Not sure if the child is needed - probably yes, to confirm the authenticity of the photo. For a passport it must be present because they take the fingerprints


I didn't need the kid when I picked up the ID a couple of years ago, though he looks like nothing like he did then anyway. He was 11 days old when I took the picture and applied online for it  He's now interested in border crossings, probably because we've stopped at so many over the last few days. 



Attus said:


> You wrote your passport was scanned several times, I suppose your data was saved in a database. Has no one ever asked why you crossed the border several times a day?


No, nothing. English is really not spoken among border guards here - only two of them spoke broken English, nothing more. I mean, the nearest playground is in Croatia, what else am I supposed to do with a 2 year old?  

In theory, each entry and exit from Schengen should be scanned and recorded - https://www.policija.si/eng/index.p...xternal-schengen-borders-to-start-on-7-april  - yet it simply isn't the case. 



> A British citizen crossing the HR-SLO border the fourth time in the same day should be suspicious.


I think they're starting to recognise me, because I was waved through the Gibina crossing (entry to HR) with a smile earlier. There was a new guy at the Razkrižje crossing (entry to SLO) though, and he scanned the documents. Bu again - only the Slovenian police checked, not the Croatian one. Incidentally, watching TV is definitely the favourite sport of border guards here, so maybe that's why they want to get rid of me quickly  

There's definitely no logic or routine to it, as sometimes they're scanning documents in both directions, sometimes both Slovenian and Croatian police are scanning documents, sometimes I'm getting waved through, etc etc. I've even tried things like approaching the Hotiza crossing at 21:40 (20 minutes before closing) to see if it provoked them in any way to control me properly, but no, nothing. 

We'll see, I've got over a week left of annoying border guards on a daily basis. I'm shocked that they don't question me in more detail about why the kid is alone with me (when we go to the playground) - especially as we have identity documents from different countries. 

Incidentally, I notice from here - https://www.policija.si/eng/index.php/component/content/article/2/96-border-crossing - they got rid of the old category of "interstate border crossings" and now all crossings are either local (for all EU/EEA/CH citizens) or international. Some were upgraded from interstate to international (such as at Rogatec/Hum na Sutli) while others were downgraded to local (such as Razkrižje/Banfi). 

Curiously, there appears to be no real difference in standard. The Gibina/Bukovje crossing is run down and operated in a strange way (the border guards need to come out their hut to check people) and yet is an international crossing, yet the modern Razkrižje crossing is for locals/EU only.

(Verso, Slovenia sucks, I still haven't found a single good playground on this side of the border )


----------



## yohaniv

Jeez. Just lend him your phone like other normal people here around do. We use playgrounds as dogshitting area.


----------



## Attus

Verso said:


> Attus, which border crossing was it?


I can't remember exactly. It was in the region Bleiburg-Dravograd, but wether it was Rabenstein-Vić or some even smaller one, I really don't know any more. 
I did not have any reason to drive there, I made several completely irrational decisions in those days...


----------



## Kpc21

Eulanthe said:


> Yeah, I picked up my child's ID card, even as a foreigner in Poland. Getting a passport is a waste of time for EU travel, especially as the ID card just fits in my wallet easily. If it gets lost, it's also easily replaced.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't need the kid when I picked up the ID a couple of years ago, though he looks like nothing like he did then anyway. He was 11 days old when I took the picture and applied online for it  He's now interested in border crossings, probably because we've stopped at so many over the last few days.


Well, i don't also think they take the fingerprints if you are getting a passport for a baby. I meant a bit bigger kids or youth.


----------



## Eulanthe

yohaniv said:


> Jeez. Just lend him your phone like other normal people here around do. We use playgrounds as dogshitting area.


Hahahaha  

But why do that when I can cross the border repeatedly?  

Today's adventure: I went to explore this interesting area - https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=banfi#map=18/46.50427/16.26437 

Google Maps suggest that the border lies along the road, but OSM suggests that the border is actually on the left side of the road. There was a sign on the right side of the road belonging to Croatia and warning of the border, so I didn't go further to see what was there. I'll go out when my kid wakes up to check out the Slovenian side, but it would have been very easy to miss that sign and to end up on the wrong side of the border. 

As for the crossing in Razkrižje - entry to HR was met with laughter by the beardy guy mentioned earlier, and the documents were scanned on entry to SLO. No sign of any border guards when I looked around the illegal crossing on the map above, but they may well have been hiding nearby.

edit: I've been out to check that area. From the Slovenian side, the "Hill of Madjerka" isn't signposted at all. If you follow the Slovenian road, you come to the junction and the "warning: state border" sign is there. So, I went back to the Croatian sign, followed the signs and seemingly legally stayed within Croatia, as the official Croatian signs lead along the road that is in Slovenia (at least according to OSM).

Waved through the border both times, but the same guys were on duty now as they were before.

Second edit: went through Razkrižje (direction HR) again to show my wife something in Croatia, and the Croatian border police actually typed the details of our documents into the computer. It seems that they don't have or use document scanners, which explains why they usually do visual checks. SLO border police were nowhere to be seen, and when she was typing our details into the computer, someone approached the booths on entry to Slovenia. They were waved through by the Croatian border police, so obviously there's plenty of informal cooperation that may not be legally allowed. 

Entered back into Slovenia through Gibina, and the Croatian policeman on duty was on the phone. He waved us into Slovenia without fuss.

Next mission: to discover if the police behave the same way at 3am.


----------



## pai nosso

*Portugal (Valença do Minho) / Spain (Tui) – July of 2018* »» Location

1-Entering Spain


2-


3-


4-Entering Portugal


5-


6-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## CNGL

I remember crossing that bridge quite a time ago. It took just over a hour to cross it. Had I crossed the bridge in the other direction, I would have arrived to the other side almost one hour _before_!


----------



## tfd543

The waiting time for cars is 5 hours now at midnight at the Batrovci (SRB-HR) border crossing. Camera view reveals that only 4 lanes are operating. At least 20 are needed inbound and outbound for the tourist season. Anyone that knows if the nestin, ljuba, sot are 24h functioning and for non-EU citizens as well ?


----------



## Alex_ZR

tfd543 said:


> Anyone that knows if the nestin, ljuba, sot are 24h functioning and for non-EU citizens as well ?


Yes, they are open 0-24 for any citizens.


----------



## pai nosso

CNGL said:


> I remember crossing that bridge quite a time ago. It took just over a hour to cross it. Had I crossed the bridge in the other direction, I would have arrived to the other side almost one hour _before_!


It took a while to get it, but i got it!!:lol::nuts:


Maybe in the near future that will not happen anymore!!


----------



## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> The waiting time for cars is 5 hours now at midnight at the Batrovci (SRB-HR) border crossing. Camera view reveals that only 4 lanes are operating. At least 20 are needed inbound and outbound for the tourist season. Anyone that knows if the nestin, ljuba, sot are 24h functioning and for non-EU citizens as well ?


Same old story on EU borders. I've just come through Macelj and there were only two lanes open for outbound traffic, three for inbound. About a 10 minute wait to get through, even though they could have easily opened more lanes.


----------



## Verso

You're complaining about 10 minutes?


----------



## tfd543

Eulanthe said:


> Same old story on EU borders. I've just come through Macelj and there were only two lanes open for outbound traffic, three for inbound. About a 10 minute wait to get through, even though they could have easily opened more lanes.


lol 10 min... I would never take the risk at Macelj especially when it becomes highway from the SLO side and there would be no point of return once you're trapped. I always take detoured crossings but only for a maximum driving of 1 hours. Otherwise the whole route from a bigger perspective have to be altered. The longest I have waited was more than 10 hours at Bajakovo in the early 2000's. Luckily it was still 1x1 around the border so as we moved forward slowly I took the chance and turned left to a motel that still exist today . The next morning the queue was even longer but not more than 1 hour later, we were taken in small packages of 50 cars by the croatian Police to the borders at Vukovar. I still remember the horror of driving through the villages. Quite devastated.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> You're complaining about 10 minutes?


Yes  I had a 2 year old that was asleep and I didn't want him to wake up  



tfd543 said:


> The next morning the queue was even longer but not more than 1 hour later, we were taken in small packages of 50 cars by the croatian Police to the borders at Vukovar. I still remember the horror of driving through the villages. Quite devastated.


How were the controls between Serbia and Croatia at that time? Were they just police controls, or was there also a military presence?

As for Macelj, it looks like the A4 in Slovenia will be vignette-free until at least the first petrol station on the A4.

edit: quick update on my adventures in borderland:

I got stopped a couple of days ago for lurking near the border (and taking pictures), but they just checked all the documents thoroughly and asked what I was doing. I told them the truth (interested in geography and languages) and there was no problem, the only issue was over the owner of the car (family company, but I forgot to get my wife who is the managing director of the company to sign an authorisation document - it's never normally needed because it's her car, not mine, and I never normally drive it alone). So, no problem there - they were happy when I explained that the company is 50% mine, and that if they wanted, I could show them the company ownership documents, but they laughed and said that it wasn't needed. 

Crossed quite a few times since then, no questions and waved through most times (except at Središče ob Dravi I, but that was after 22:00 at night). Other crossings, like at the main Središče ob Dravi crossing were no problem at all. 

Anyway, tonight was interesting. I was in Varaždin, and came back through Središče ob Dravi - Središče ob Dravi I - Razkrižje because the road is faster, and at the main Središče ob Dravi crossing, they wanted me to open the driver door (?) as if they were looking for something. Got waved through Središče ob Dravi I, but then at Razkrižje, they did a really comprehensive check. The Croatian border guard (beardy from before) checked all the documents thoroughly, the Slovenian border guard asked about what we had in the car and checked the documents as well, and beardy had quite a long conversation on the phone about us and the car. They wrote down details of the car, and checked the VIN number against the registration document too. 

All very friendly, but it was the only time so far that they've conducted such a detailed control on the border. I suspect a Polish Skoda has been stolen in Croatia in this area, because they had no interest in the 2 year old, only in the car, where we'd been and where we are going. They didn't ask for anything but the car registration, so it definitely wasn't us that was of interest to them.


----------



## tfd543

Eulanthe said:


> Yes  I had a 2 year old that was asleep and I didn't want him to wake up
> 
> How were the controls between Serbia and Croatia at that time? Were they just police controls, or was there also a military presence?




Quite harsh. The croats sweared badly claiming that it was the serb's station making the queues. Had a quick chat with the officer thanking Him for the assistance. He told me to be careful lol.


----------



## Junkie

Sneaking in Balkan borders is not a good idea I don't recommend. For example there are landmines between BiH and Croatia and between Serbia - Kosovo* and Kosovo* - Macedonia.


----------



## Eulanthe

Junkie said:


> Sneaking in Balkan borders is not a good idea I don't recommend. For example there are landmines between BiH and Croatia and between Serbia - Kosovo* and Kosovo* - Macedonia.


Come on, there are maps  

The biggest problem with Slovenia-Croatia is that it's not demarcated, so it's very easy to accidentally cross it. I've got the OSM maps on my phone, but I don't cross the signs warning of the border even if the actual border line is further ahead.


----------



## Junkie

^^










This is in BSCM talking about mines along the migrant route
https://www.slobodnaevropa.org/a/bosna-i-hercegovina-trebinje-mine-migranti/29140208.html


----------



## aubergine72

Kemo said:


> You can see more of this fence in this area on StreetView:
> https://www.google.pl/maps/@44.0894...254.34848&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656


A new/extra fence was erected recently as well to prevent African swine flu from Romania.


----------



## bratislav

Port of Kotor (MNE) border crossing.


----------



## pai nosso

*Spain (A Guarda | Galicia) » Portugal (Caminha) – August of 2018

Ferry Crossing*

1-A Guarda


2-


3-


4-Minho River


5-


6-


7-


----------



## pai nosso

8-


9-


10-


11-


12-Caminha


13-


14-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## Slodi

Balkans from last year

Croatia - Bosnia and Hercegovina in Neum



towards Bosnia



towards Croatia


----------



## Slodi

Bosnia do Serbia in Karakaj / Zvornik



Towards Serbia


----------



## Slodi

Serbia to Hungary in Kelebija



Towards Hungary


----------



## Palance

Slodi said:


> Montenegro to Bosnia and Hercegovina in Sitnica


That is not the border crossing, that is the toll booth.


----------



## alserrod

Is there a toll or they have used an old sign just to require to stop?


----------



## Attus

The sign "Péage" is quite clear.


----------



## alserrod

Attus said:


> The sign "Péage" is quite clear.


I know, but even in an not official language, that sign means "do not cross without stopping". Usually seen in borders, police controls and toll booths.

that was the point I asked if they took an old sign to point border because, is there any toll there?


----------



## Verso

Yes, there's toll for an ordinary two-lane road (I think on the Montenegrin side of the border).


----------



## Palance

Yes, this is the Montenegrin M12, and it is tolled (3 Euros for cars). The border crossing is a kilometer ir so further north.


----------



## bogdymol

I can also confirm. I was driving on that road from Montenegro to Bosnia, and it seem quite deserted. Met only about 2 other cars on the way, and looked like a secondary road... I was hoping that I was on the correct route to Bosnia as there weren't many signs available.

When I reached that point I thought that's the border crossing... and I was surprised when I have seen the price list. I wouldn't have expected for such a minor secondary road to be tolled.

The border was less than 1 km after that, so you use this toll booth only for international traffic.


----------



## Eulanthe

If I remember rightly, it was majorly reconstructed in the late 2000's through a PPP agreement between Herceg Novi municipality and a private company. Before reconstruction, it was some awful and dangerous road. Part of the reason for agreeing to this was political - Herceg Novi has a plurality of Serbs, and Trebinje is also majority Serb, so it provided a good quality route to connect two regional centres of Serbians.

They've been trying to buy the concessionaire out, and Montenegro designated it as a state road, but nothing has happened so far. I think there was also some dodgy business about the development of the road - it was supposed to be developed, but nothing was done. 

From what I remember, Herceg Novi wants to transform the toll station there into the new Montenegrin border crossing, as the existing crossing is dreadful and is technically completely unsuitable for use.


----------



## Slodi

Palance said:


> That is not the border crossing, that is the toll booth.


sorry, my fault. thought it was the border crossing, my memory failed


----------



## Junkie

Eulanthe said:


> Herceg Novi has a plurality of Serbs, and Trebinje is also majority Serb, so it provided a good quality route to connect two regional centres of Serbians.


Montenegrin and Bosnian Serbs. Also on some crossings into BiH from Serbia the BiH national flag is missing because it borders the Serb enclave entity and has been with or without purpose removed. According to the law the entity flag is also present.


----------



## stickedy

Junkie said:


> Montenegrin and Bosnian Serbs.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herceg_Novi#Population

49.44% of the population of Herceg Novi declares themselves to be Serbian


----------



## tfd543

Seeking help with a rough but rational method of calculating the border waiting time based on length of queue assuming a crossing point in Europe. Lets say an average car is 5 meter long and adding 1 meter of parking distance at each side amounting to 7 meter. Lets assume a queue of 1 km. Whats the average time for clearing passport and customs ? 1-2 min ? thnx.


----------



## vespafrederic

tfd543 said:


> Seeking help with a rough but rational method of calculating the border waiting time based on length of queue assuming a crossing point in Europe. Lets say an average car is 5 meter long and adding 1 meter of parking distance at each side amounting to 7 meter. Lets assume a queue of 1 km. Whats the average time for clearing passport and customs ? 1-2 min ? thnx.


Based on my experiences on the Serbian-Hungarian border. It takes 8-10 minutes to check passports and do the customs. It is an EU schengen outer border.


----------



## alserrod

Not road border but airports... but could be used in any border.

Recently I watched a BBC program about special sites in the world. Among 20 chapters, they took 15 minutes to Tel Aviv airport, which it is considered the most safe over the world.

They focused in several issues:

- barely police in the airport (or at least with uniforms or anyone that seemed to be officer)
- hard to take a bomb inside airport due to its design
- easy to advance possible problems they could reach

but mainly they said that at the time in a lot of places, explosives are searched, they searched for people who could carry explosives. They had hidden officers anywhere looking behaviour of any passenger in terminal, 30 seconds interview before getting boarding pass (enough to see if you deserved a longer interview or check, not often, or just go through).

Quite curious... except legal safety controls before boarding gates, no baggage control but safer world wide.

I guess if there would be a sort to avoid queues in border controls.


Hint, for instance, since you took last exit in motorway to reach terminal, there were two kilometres. Cameras to record your car plate and it could be in white list (known cars from known people who are supposed not to give any problem), black list (to be warned when they reached terminals) or no list (maybe almost all, for instance any rent-a-car or any car first time they reached airport, they had to glance behaviour as soon as car arrived).

Could they make it too in borders?. A camera to sort cars in different lanes and officers trained to know which cars should be carefully checked and which one, go though..

PS. In addition, in any border with passport control they could let you send your information via internet before arriving, passport numbers of all passengers and car plate. It would be police decission to take you to one or other lane (and will be registered you had requested and entried in the country quite easy).


----------



## Kanadzie

FWIW I had something similar flying to JFK airport in New York from Amsterdam, this interview...


----------



## stickedy

The problem (waiting time) at borders ist not the procedure itself, this is working quite good, the officers are doing exactly what you suggest, e.g. checking suspicious people more intensive, but the problem is either too few border police there which results in too few open lanes or - and this is most likely more often the cause - the border police just don't care about waiting times since their work is the same regardless if there is 1 lane open or 5...


----------



## cinxxx

Any ideas what the waiting times should be at Ivanica border crossing the coming Monday, let's say around 2pm? I would have a flight out of DUB and rooms in BiH are a lot cheaper...


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> Could they make it too in borders?. A camera to sort cars in different lanes and officers trained to know which cars should be carefully checked and which one, go though..


Could be. The original plan for Schengen was that cars would be given a special sticker, and they would be allowed to cross without stopping with just a visual check. Cars without the sticker would be controlled as usual - the idea being that stickered cars were "pre-cleared", similar to the US/Canada NEXUS programme. The original idea actually evolved into a complete scrapping of internal controls, which was significantly more than what was originally proposed.

I think there's definitely room to create faster crossings, especially on intra-EU border crossings. The SLO/HR border is a perfect example - it really should be created so that pre-cleared travellers (who have declared online that they intend to cross) could just drive through without having to get their documents checked. When I was fooling around on holiday, it was taking up to 5 minutes to cross the border despite being the only person there, as the infrastructure was poorly designed. 

I should have been perfectly able to go online and say "right, I'm crossing into Croatia at 11am, I'll return at 12pm" - and when I approached the border, the camera would register my number plate, and the relevant information would flash up for the guards. They could do a quick visual check to confirm that the number of passengers was correct, and I could carry on.

Even on external borders like HR/SRB, it should be possible for EU citizens to register their transit online. Some risk analysis could be done to determine whether a car represents a smuggling risk, too.

Are you familiar with the pre-pass system in the US for trucks at weiigh stations? The same thing could exist at borders easily enough, especially on borders where there's no real risk such as HU/HR where the Hungarians barely care.


----------



## Slodi

some news from polish-ukrainian border at Korczowa (A4 exit to Ukraine)
https://www.tvn24.pl/wiadomosci-z-k...iczny-i-silowo-wjechal-na-ukraine,866354.html


> Kierujący osobowym renault staranował przejście graniczne w Korczowej, niszcząc separatory, barierki i szlaban. Ze wstępnych ustaleń wynika, że mężczyzna ma nieważny niemiecki paszport. (http://www.tvn24.pl)


a guy, supposedly with invalid german passport, rammed the border crossing destroying the barriers. he was caught by the ukrainian police. the reason for this illegal crossing is not known yet


----------



## piotr71

Palance said:


> Yes, this is the Montenegrin M12, and it is tolled (3 Euros for cars). The border crossing is a kilometer ir so further north.


How did you find out it's M12? Due to my Yugoslavian road map, M12 used to run from Ptuj through Zagreb to Split. Unless, Montenegro recently implemented new road numbering, which I am not aware of. As far as I remember, there is no road number on any signpost from Herceg Novi to Trebinje, there is though, down by the roundabout in Herceg, a sign consisting of Mostar, Capljina with a motorway icon attached as a destination and Trebinje.

Mentioned sign


----------



## MichiH

^^ They did in January 2016: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Montenegro#Roads


----------



## Verso

Dubrovnik CRO


----------



## Junkie

Slodi said:


> a guy, supposedly with invalid german passport, rammed the border crossing destroying the barriers.


Was this "fake" or expired passport? It will depend much on him I guess.

Some countries allow citizens to enter another country until the total expiration day and not like 6 months before the expiration date.


----------



## stickedy

piotr71 said:


> How did you find out it's M12? Due to my Yugoslavian road map, M12 used to run from Ptuj through Zagreb to Split. Unless, Montenegro recently implemented new road numbering, which I am not aware of. As far as I remember, there is no road number on any signpost from Herceg Novi to Trebinje, there is though, down by the roundabout in Herceg, a sign consisting of Mostar, Capljina with a motorway icon attached as a destination and Trebinje.
> 
> Mentioned sign


Afaik there is nowhere a sign with the road number on it in Montenegro. I think we will seeing this being started with completion of the first motorway. And the old signs will be on the roads for long time...


----------



## piotr71

You are right, I was pretty certain I have seen some road numbering in Podgorica, but after quick look at street view, I have to admit I was wrong.


----------



## Kpc21

This seems to be a general problem in the former Yugoslavia countries (but also in Greece). The road numbering on signs is practically non-existent, maybe except on motorways.

In Poland, for example, all the primary (national) and secondary (voivodeship) roads have numbers on the signs and the numbers are often also present on the signs directing onto them. The only problem which sometimes occurs is inconsistent choice of the directional towns (especially if the roads cross voivodeship borders and they are, therefore, managed by different entities on different sections). The tertiary roads do not have numbers on the signs and their directional signage sometimes happen to be very inconsistent or totally missing - but those of higher categories are really OK. And the signs are big (compare it with the situation e.g. with Slovakia with their tiny signposts).


----------



## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> Could be. The original plan for Schengen was that cars would be given a special sticker, and they would be allowed to cross without stopping with just a visual check.


Fortunately, such a plan was never implemented. It takes seconds only to forge a sticker.


----------



## Slodi

Junkie said:


> Was this "fake" or expired passport? It will depend much on him I guess.
> 
> Some countries allow citizens to enter another country until the total expiration day and not like 6 months before the expiration date.


the news says only that the guy was german with invalid passport and probably doped. he was caught by the ukrainian police and as the eu citizen he was transfered to the polish police for further for investigation.


----------



## OulaL

Last week I travelled by bus from Mostar to Dubrovnik via Metković and Neum. There were 2 slow and 2 fast passport checks: BiH exit and Croatian entry (those were slow, passports were collected from everyone on board two times), and a joint check on both sides of Neum (those were fast, passports were checked in the bus but not collected).

BiH never seems to give exit stamps (at least on land border) but in Neum they also didn't give an entry stamp. I wonder if this is typical or did I just happen to have lazy frontier officers.

I'm not sure what is the point. After all, there is no control between Neum and other parts of BiH, as well as there is no maritime control between Dubrovnik and other parts of Croatia; so if I want to smuggle something or someone, why would I choose a "better" border checkpoint in the first place?

(Also, I don't know why the bus didn't go straight from Mostar to Neum, bypassing the larger part of Croatia entirely. It can't be just to serve Metković as the same company also has buses from Mostar to Split, that go through Metković anyway.)


----------



## Eulanthe

OulaL said:


> BiH never seems to give exit stamps (at least on land border) but in Neum they also didn't give an entry stamp. I wonder if this is typical or did I just happen to have lazy frontier officers.


Yup, BiH doesn't bother to stamp passports on exit. I've crossed plenty of times and never received one.



> I'm not sure what is the point. After all, there is no control between Neum and other parts of BiH, as well as there is no maritime control between Dubrovnik and other parts of Croatia; so if I want to smuggle something or someone, why would I choose a "better" border checkpoint in the first place?


There is maritime control if you cross the border into BiH waters. The border is monitored, and I've read some stories of people being fined rather heavily for straying into BiH waters by mistake without reporting to Croatian border guards of the fact. 

The problem is that BiH is outside the EU, so the previous state of affairs where 99% of people were waved through simply can't take place anymore. It's a stupid situation, but BiH in particular was very reluctant to discuss alternatives without getting free access to the Port of Ploce in return. The other thing - there's really no "worse" checkpoint for non-locals between Metković and the Neum I/II crossings. 



> (Also, I don't know why the bus didn't go straight from Mostar to Neum, bypassing the larger part of Croatia entirely. It can't be just to serve Metković as the same company also has buses from Mostar to Split, that go through Metković anyway.)


You don't want to know how bad that road is  It's faster through Metković, even with the border stops. It's also possible that it goes that way to maintain a consistent route, as the inland route could be impassable during winter.



MattiG said:



> Fortunately, such a plan was never implemented. It takes seconds only to forge a sticker.


I think the idea was that the visual check would still take place, so someone who looked visibly non-local would be stopped and questioned anyway. If you remember at the time of the first signing of the Schengen Agreement, Customs controls were still in place and it didn't seem like it was going to end anytime soon, so I imagine it was intended to look rather like the Nordic border crossings. 

From what I remember, there were quite a few ideas thrown around, including that only EEC citizens could have freedom of movement, while non-EEC citizens would be obliged to undergo control. 

As a very curious side note, when the Schengen Convention was signed in 1990, only West Germany signed it on June 19th, and political unification hadn't been agreed with East Germany. I've never found out what West Germany planned to do in this case, because they could hardly have an open border with East Germany while being a member of Schengen.

edit: I looked again, and it seems that the plan was to wait until Germany unified before Schengen would happen. They were expecting it to take place by 1992, after unification would be completed but before Customs barriers fell on EU borders in accordance with the 1987 Single European Act. There's an interesting article here, that shows that the UK was still seriously considering joining Schengen on a limited basis - https://www.nytimes.com/1990/06/20/...n-countries-to-establish-a-common-border.html


----------



## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> I think the idea was that the visual check would still take place, so someone who looked visibly non-local would be stopped and questioned anyway. If you remember at the time of the first signing of the Schengen Agreement, Customs controls were still in place and it didn't seem like it was going to end anytime soon, so I imagine it was intended to look rather like the Nordic border crossings.


Whatever the original idea was, trusting stickers is nonsense.


----------



## Junkie

Eulanthe said:


> The problem is that BiH is outside the EU, so the previous state of affairs where 99% of people were waved through simply can't take place anymore.


Entering Balkan NON-EU countries if you are from eu it is possible with ID card .


----------



## OulaL

Eulanthe said:


> The problem is that BiH is outside the EU, so the previous state of affairs where 99% of people were waved through simply can't take place anymore. It's a stupid situation, but BiH in particular was very reluctant to discuss alternatives without getting free access to the Port of Ploce in return. The other thing - there's really no "worse" checkpoint for non-locals between Metković and the Neum I/II crossings.


Thanks for the explanation.

Though I didn't mean locals, I meant those who want to cross the border more or less illegally. The control is clearly more strict in Metković than around Neum, either side of it. You can obviously get from inland BiH to Neum without any control, and from Neum to Croatia with lots of lighter control than from elsewhere BiH. Ok, I believe when you say that the road is worse, but that probably isn't a problem for smugglers.


----------



## eucitizen

Slodi said:


> That's not the case I had when I crossed PL-RUS border in June. I was asked by both Polish and Russians police to show driving licence, registration and green card, though, only on the way to Russia.


Uhm When I crossed the Pl-BY border in June pPolish officer asked me only for the registration just to chceck the VIN. The Belarus officer asked me just pro forma if I had the green card. Russians ask you for the vehicle registration simply because you have to undergo the custom registration, but they never asked me to show driving license or insurance. I also crossed the RUS-EST border and both they asked me just the vehicle registration.


----------



## eucitizen

Eulanthe said:


> Quite surprising that Georgia isn't a member, actually.
> 
> (edit: seems that third party insurance isn't mandatory (!) in Georgia, hence why they aren't a member)
> 
> Anyway, I had my driving licence checked once and registration documents checked three times on the SLO-HR border recently, but the other 30-something times I crossed in two weeks, they didn't ask.


I read Georgia was going to make that compulsroy, because of joining the green card isnurance system Also Armenia is planning to join. Probably the system will include in the future also Kazakhstan.


----------



## Llapi 1

*Integrated Border Management between Republic of Kosovo and Republic of serbia at the border crossing point in Merdare:*


----------



## Alex_ZR

Llapi 1 said:


> Republic of *serbia *at the border crossing point in Merdare


Nice example of hate.


----------



## Junkie

That is not international border crossing, as Kosovo is not recognized by the UN as a country. So Kosovo is disputed territory.

So these pictures don't belong here, but anyway it is unclear what will happen with that crossing, because there are currently talks for changing of territories, between the both sides*.


----------



## Llapi 1

:lol: :lol:

My mistake, It's a market! :lol:

So according to you Switzerland wasn't a state till 2002?!

What a psycho junkie!


----------



## CSerpent

Here we go again...


----------



## piotr71

Junkie said:


> Green card is mandatory for MK also. If you dont have it* you will be refused entry* and it is strictly checked for every vehicle. Recently Serbia abolished it, because it became part of the association so a domestic insurance is valid for the rest countries.


No, you would be asked to purchase a border insurance, which costs 50 euros for 2 weeks in Macedonia.



Junkie said:


> No, it is international Green Card what they issue, *and its valid for all countries marked with dark green on the map*, so only excluding Kosovo which has domestic insurance card issued at the borders.


Not really.



Junkie said:


> *A correct statement will be that the Green Card obviously depends on the country that issues but not on the insurer at the first place*.
> 
> Because here for example, it is necesarry for everyone in order to exit the country and you dont ask for other countries they just issue simply Green Card which is valid for all countries that are part of the association.


Incorrect. It is insurance company, who decides in which country green card is valid or not. They simply cross off boxes with country codes. Typically, most of UK insurers do not validate green card for Balkan countries, Ukraine, Russia, Belarus and Moldova. Sometimes they do for Turkey and Montenegro (i.e. AXA)

Here is a green card applied to my partner's former car: 









https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=130245927&postcount=33405


----------



## alserrod

just a hint, why Faroe islands are in grey? Green card not accepted?, not many ferries for cars or just a mistake?


----------



## tfd543

Nice facilities at Merdare ! I have waited a long time to see some updated images. Hopefully no more +10 hours of waiting time at the border.


----------



## Junkie

piotr71 wrong. Countries that are part of Green Card issue Green Card for all other Green Card countries.

My Green Card is valid for ALL countries including Russia. Does countries that are not part of this zone, like EU member countries, they issue for specific only.


----------



## Palance

Llapi 1 said:


> *Integrated Border Management between Republic of Kosovo and Republic of Serbia at the border crossing point in Merdare:*


On which side of the border is it built?


----------



## tfd543

Palance said:


> On which side of the border is it built?




Should be only one crossing point right? Well since its integrated. Just my guess.


----------



## Julien06200

tfd543 said:


> Should be only one crossing point right? Well since its integrated. Just my guess.


 Not necessarily.
For instance, the integrated facility between France and Andorra is entirely located in France and Andorran officials have jurisdiction in a designated area within the facility.


----------



## tfd543

Julien06200 said:


> Not necessarily.
> For instance, the integrated facility between France and Andorra is entirely located in France and Andorran officials have jurisdiction in a designated area within the facility.


Alright. I see but why ? Does that depend who is paying the running cost or is it by practical means ?

The same goes with the Euro airport then. French territory but co-operated by German and Swiss personnel.


----------



## alserrod

tfd543 said:


> Alright. I see but why ? Does that depend who is paying the running cost or is it by practical means ?
> 
> The same goes with the Euro airport then. French territory but co-operated by German and Swiss personnel.


Before Schengen, in Mediterranean, customs on tolled motorway where inside Spain as well as in road
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.459...4!1szov-b3PKXITU4_dLlj-dUA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

It is one out of those booths that remains. It is entirely in Spain. Looking ahead, just 100m, right carriageway (to north) Spanish, left one, French. A little more in the north, the whole road except pedestrian shoulder in the right is France (thus, if you buy something in a shop and you take into your parked car, you are crossing a border)


More close to Mediterranean, in this border pass, can we consider this building as "booth"?
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.434...4!1spmfrljomt69xMsfiIMLUZA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

If so, quite weird. All booths have been demolished


Opposite side, Atlantic side.

In tolled motorway, booths were absolutely inside France and quite near to toll booths. It was easy to know they were in France because river is the border
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3403967,-1.7515535,222m/data=!3m1!1e3
They are erased nowadays

In that point I remember once there was a congestion and... Spanish police were doing random alcohol test to all drivers had already crossed border. They just walked corner to corner, chosen a random car and a fast test. One out of cars I saw hadn't completely entered Spain (according to a line in the motorway), the end of the car was still in France.

Inside Irun, I remember booths were in Spain for both countries
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3488362,-1.7856984,113m/data=!3m1!1e3

In those cases it was easy... after customs, police rules of new countries will apply even if still not in real country. We are chatting about a couple of mettres only.


This custom, in Somport summit, St.James pilgrim lane and former E-07 before tunnel hasn't been demolished. It was in the middle of border and has a lot of history. 
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.795...4!1sIx-jlBMXm3H2p3zt8b_gCg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

In the immage, right side, there is a little monument, in the opposite side, several workers, engineers and even Napoleon are related there as imperial lane to Spain, just in the end.

At the beginning, both traffics were under those booths, later, right side to France, outside of booths

Exactly same situation than in Portalet summit, former booths not demolished. There's not tunnel here but not enough traffic and just a former welcome to go through without problems and a souvenir

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.806...4!1s1SzCrK0hDBsW23_EYJKSag!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Images are 6 years old in google. We do know that nowadays there is a French bus stop just in the summit, operating all the year. We wonder if Spanish line could be enlarged (two buses operating all year five km away)


Maybe exemption was Bielsa tunnel

I think it was here were Spanish booths were located

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.689...4!1sITNd1BnMdtLGRAZtxBTp3Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

and French ones quite inside France. Until border, each police had their control but it could be border where booths were separated and quite far one to another.


Nowadays, as an example, both Portalet and Bielsa border pass roads are managed by a joined company. They wanna avoid traffic in one country is right and in the opposite, halted because snow or conversely. Giving management to same company you will know that even in both countries, even in no one because weather


----------



## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> Alright. I see but why ? Does that depend who is paying the running cost or is it by practical means ?


There's no set rule as to who pays (it's normally decided at governmental level), but the "why" is easy to answer - it's much easier to control a single control point than two separate ones. So-called "one stop control" is becoming more and more common, and as alserrod showed, it was routine on the Spanish border in previous times. 



alserrod said:


> In those cases it was easy... after customs, police rules of new countries will apply even if still not in real country. We are chatting about a couple of mettres only.


It could be more in some cases. For instance, until recently, there was a case where the BiH/Croatian border crossing lay significantly inside BiH. For instance, here - this was 2km inside BiH. 

The same goes for the HR/MNE border at Karasovici, where the MNE border crossing is around 2km from the border line. It used to be located closer to the border line, but when the crossing was reconstructed in the mid 2000's, it was moved much further down the hill.


----------



## alserrod

More than 2 km...

Andorra-France, 3,4 km

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/El+...091997250!2m2!1d1.732591!2d42.5421978!1m0!3e0

Street view
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.559...4!1sOsFdiL9aCsyCjw0sFvSgrQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

French and Andorran booths (both 3,4 inside France). Both cars behind them are Andorran police.

Even out of Schengen treaty there's a lack of passport control. Andorran police is worried to be able to close borders if needed.
French police isn't worried. Any citizen who enters in Andorra... will have to exit one or another day, doesn't matter if via France or Spain. Cooperation and caught off.
French police is worried in smuggling, but AFAIK, you drive in "nothing to declare" and you can have there... or maybe some km later a random check.


In the opposite side
Spain-Andorra, exactly in the border. In this thread, some old pictures have been posted about it comparing border 100 years ago and nowadays. I crossed one year ago and could compare too

Looking to north, 
Spanish booths
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.435...4!1sxEWD1oYNt8uE4cHo-RWInw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Andorran booths
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.435...4!1sSdGXJ5LqkpdR6YryLSr2Sg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Buildings in the right have a long time ago



And the full record... the only non-Schengen border without any booth, random control or any officer in a lot of kilometres around

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.495...4!1sfdAc8gJDBfqCfeKYChO1Eg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## CSerpent

Some interesting images showing on Google Maps of the old Dreilinden/Drewitz border posts.

https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/116143771659596093702/6550270275191874434

Is an exceptionally eerie view! _Hier endet West-Berlin_


----------



## italystf

My green card isn't valid in Albania and Morocco, I don't know why.


----------



## alserrod

M20 in Bosnia-H

Is it a fake or really it enters again to Croatia and backs to Bosnia?

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6556906,18.1704102,16z


----------



## g.spinoza

alserrod said:


> M20 in Bosnia-H
> 
> Is it a fake or really it enters again to Croatia and backs to Bosnia?
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6556906,18.1704102,16z


According to openstreetmap it does not:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1045610988#map=15/42.6546/18.1761

Neither is particularly good at borders, but OSM seems more sensible here.


----------



## alserrod

got it, in google maps there's a picture somewhere in the road besides Croatia and there's no fence or control. OK, they have customs later but, is it easy to cross walking down?. It can be controlled but coast is so near to be helped to get into country ...


----------



## Palance

I have taken this picture along the M20 (which is in BiH), Croatia is on the left. But the border is not marked here, so not sure in which country I was 









(picture)

Looking downhill from that position.








(picture)


----------



## Junkie

Your picture is not shown.


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## alserrod

First picture seems to be a borderstone!!

By the way... providing an EU citizen, does roaming apply there or Croatian networks arrive? ("fine" ir you forget to shut down roaming outside EU can be hard enough!!)


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> got it, in google maps there's a picture somewhere in the road besides Croatia and there's no fence or control. OK, they have customs later but, is it easy to cross walking down?. It can be controlled but coast is so near to be helped to get into country ...


I've just been there today, and there's no way you could get away with it. It's very steep on the Croatian side, and as soon as you were spotted by someone, you'd almost certainly get caught. The terrain is really unforgiving, and you'd have no way of hiding. 

Anyway, today's MNE-BiH-HR-MNE fun included... 

- Crossed from MNE to BiH at Sitnica-(don't know the name on the BiH side). Painless, but interestingly, my passport was stamped on exit. On the BiH side, my passport was stamped and the other ID cards were scanned too. No sign of any customs officers. 

- BiH-HR at Ivanica / Gornji Brgat - the new Ivanica crossing is a huge improvement on the previous situation. Gornji Brgat is still ridiculous, but fortunately, there was no traffic there. The new border crossing is under construction there, and there are a huge amount of earthworks taking place. It won't be open by next summer, that's for sure. No sign of any customs officers. 

- HR-MNE at Vitaljina / Konfin - IT WAS CLOSED. Ruined my day, I wanted to see the beautiful view from no man's land. 

- HR-MNE at Karasovici / Debeli Brijeg - painless, but interestingly, you had to wait for a green light before crossing through the radiation detector at the entrance to the Karasovici checkpoint. No sign of any customs officers, and the MNE border guard was cracking jokes about how bad the Polish football team is. 

All of the crossings were really straightforward - passport/ID cards were all scanned, car documents (including green card) were checked and that was that. Traffic was very light at all of them.


----------



## Alex_ZR

^^ You should be border crossing inspector! :lol:


----------



## stickedy

Der borders on Google Maps are very incorrect, that you see on how straight the border lines are drawn often. OSM is the more correct normally.


----------



## stickedy

alserrod said:


> got it, in google maps there's a picture somewhere in the road besides Croatia and there's no fence or control. OK, they have customs later but, is it easy to cross walking down?. It can be controlled but coast is so near to be helped to get into country ...


If you really want to enter Croatia from BiH uncontrolled, there are many better and more secluded places to cross


----------



## tfd543

Eulanthe said:


> - HR-MNE at Karasovici / Debeli Brijeg - painless, but interestingly, you had to wait for a green light before crossing through the radiation detector at the entrance to the Karasovici checkpoint. No sign of any customs officers, and the MNE border guard was cracking jokes about how bad the Polish football team is.


Thats very nice. Ive crossed there 3 years ago and its a good system to keep the order IMO.

Did the passport control officer ask what the purpose of your stay was ?
Sometimes they like to ask that out of curiosity.


----------



## piotr71

stickedy said:


> If you really want to enter Croatia from BiH uncontrolled, there are many better and more secluded places to cross


Such as this one


----------



## Junkie

Crossing into BiH illegally is very easy these days considering that large portion of the length of the border is river border.

Entity RS borders Serbia on Drina river, then you have Sava which runs on the north BIH border and Una on the west.

Recently a group of migrants was rescued on Drina at the SRB-BIH border.


----------



## Eulanthe

Alex_ZR said:


> ^^ You should be border crossing inspector! :lol:


I wish! :lol: There really is a lot of wasted time at borders - for instance, both MNE and HR scan all passports. Couldn't they share data so that a passport scanned on exit from MNE is automatically sent to the HR side and vice-versa?

Today's adventures were just a simple MNE-HR-MNE crossing at Debeli Brijeg - Karasovici. Nothing interesting at all - not much traffic, only a couple of cars in front of me in both directions. Everyone looked pretty much bored on both sides, though one interesting note - on entry and exit to/from HR, there's no division between EU/EEA/CH and All Passports - all lanes are signed for EU/EEA/CH. 

Apart from that, the most interesting thing was that there was actually a very bored Croatian customs guy in the booth, but he was making no effort to actually control anyone.

(oh, and I got another passport stamp from MNE, but only on entry this time. They're definitely stamping all passports on entry...)


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> on entry and exit to/from HR, there's no division between EU/EEA/CH and All Passports - all lanes are signed for EU/EEA/CH.


So Montenegrins can't cross the border? :lol:


----------



## scott125

Suprised MME are stamping passports , though ive been twice only stamped on entry to tivat airport on uk passport.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> So Montenegrins can't cross the border? :lol:


Exactly! :lol: 

No idea why it's like that, but traffic was incredibly light in both directions. I was quite surprised just how empty the crossings were - no truck traffic, hardly any car traffic and a bus or two. The Montenegrin police really take their time checking though - I timed it at over 3 minutes to check four documents and the car documents. 

Just to confirm, I also got stamped out at Podgorica Airport, so clearly MNE have changed their policy recently. During all my previous visits, they were only stamping on entry, not exit. 

Now, time to plan a post-Brexit trip somewhere on the 30th March to see what it's like to travel as a non-EU citizen...


----------



## General Maximus

When leaving the Republic of Ireland for Northern Ireland, the speed limit changes from kilometers per hour to miles per hour.


----------



## Junkie

afaik Northern Ireland is not a country, it is the UK you are entering. Maybe I'm wrong? Where is the UK sign on the road.


----------



## MichiH

^^ There's usually nothing. You don't see that you enter a "different country". But the speed limit is changing...


----------



## MattiG

Junkie said:


> afaik Northern Ireland is not a country, it is the UK you are entering. Maybe I'm wrong? Where is the UK sign on the road.


I do not believe that there would be any obligation to put such a sign on roads. Most people are well aware on country border between Ireland and the Northern Ireland.


----------



## General Maximus

It's a sensitive subject here. At the moment there are no border checks, and although it's UK, the Republic of Ireland has a say in its affairs as well, as per Good Friday Agreement. Do NOT put a sign with UK on that border. You'll get more than you bargained for. 

This whole thing will go to **** after Brexit.


----------



## alserrod

Junkie said:


> afaik Northern Ireland is not a country, it is the UK you are entering. Maybe I'm wrong? Where is the UK sign on the road.


AFAIK there aren't signs about countries and you know you have changed country due to signs in miles or kilometres and other niceties


----------



## bogdymol

alserrod said:


> AFAIK there aren't signs about countries and you know you have changed country due to signs in miles or kilometres and other niceties


Exactly! I have crossed several times the Northern Ireland / Republic of Ireland border, and the only sign that you have crossed the border is that the signs inform you that the speed limit is in km/h or mph (and for roadgeeks the lane markings are slightly different).


----------



## Verso

Junkie said:


> afaik Northern Ireland is not a country, it is the UK you are entering. Maybe I'm wrong? Where is the UK sign on the road.


Actually Northern Ireland is a country of the UK (which is itself called a country, or a sovereign state).


----------



## Kanadzie

Junkie said:


> afaik Northern Ireland is not a country, it is the UK you are entering. Maybe I'm wrong? Where is the UK sign on the road.


they specifically didn't put any sign... its related to the peace deal in late 90's that ended the constant fighting here.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> Actually Northern Ireland is a country of the UK (which is itself called a country, or a sovereign state).


Yes, a constituent country. The UK isn't the only one that has them - New Zealand and the Netherlands both have constituent countries too.



Kanadzie said:


> they specifically didn't put any sign... its related to the peace deal in late 90's that ended the constant fighting here.


No, there never were any signs on the border there, even after 1922. 

There's some footage here of the border on both sides in the 1960's. Ireland doesn't really recognise it as an international border, while putting up "UK" signs on the Northern Ireland side of the border would be torn down within minutes. 

You'll notice that the term "Boundary Post", "Customs Post" or "Frontier Post" is used refer to the border crossing, which was never used elsewhere. Where it gets interesting is here, as the term "Republic of Ireland" was used here. If you watch the few seconds, you can see that the controls were always about Customs controls and not about people.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

la vajol border ( f-e) , only a catalonian county sign on the spanish side road managed by catalonian regional gov. as northern catalonia is in france and southern catalonia in spain 
















french side
( no road , no france sign )









https://imatges.elpunt.net/imatges/45/73/alta/780_008_4573723_74c0ffb76b7c601d00dc59386f8474ad.jpg


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> You'll notice that the term "Boundary Post", "Customs Post" or "Frontier Post" is used refer to the border crossing, which was never used elsewhere.


Same in Slovenia where the border crossing Sečovlje with Croatia is called a "control point". It's stupid IMO, because border checkpoints don't need to lie exactly on the border line anyway. If anything, they could call the building on the Croatian side (Plovanija) a "control point" since it lies on the disputed territory.


----------



## Junkie

Kanadzie said:


> they specifically didn't put any sign... its related to the peace deal in late 90's that ended the constant fighting here.


I think this answers my question. You have to be right, because we know other examples in the EU where there is no check control between schengen states, but they impose signs when you approach the territory of the bordering country.


----------



## italystf

Junkie said:


> I think this answers my question. You have to be right, because we know other examples in the EU where there is no check control between schengen states, but they impose signs when you approach the territory of the bordering country.


Because other EU borders aren't disputed.
UK and IRL abolished border controls between each other in the early 1990s.


----------



## haddockman

Not for air/sea passengers. IRL has rather rigid border controls.

IRL still has sporadic checks along the border with NI/UK.


----------



## General Maximus

So does the UK at the ferry ports. And both Irish and UK customs to random checks.


----------



## trilobitas

Lithuania - Belarus border


----------



## Junkie

^^
Whats their origin? Belarussian or Lithuanian?


----------



## alserrod

Guess Belarus, Fence seems easier to cross


----------



## General Maximus

That border protection seems to be at a absolute minimum. Once you're in Belarus, you're free to go to Russia...


----------



## Verso

^^ Do you expect migrants from Lithuania to Belarus and Russia?


----------



## General Maximus

It's not unlikely. A lot of unhappy ethnic Russians in those Baltic States. But the other way round is also possible...


----------



## trilobitas

trilobitas said:


> Lithuania - Belarus border


----------



## masala

Verso said:


> ^^ I'm not talking about this specific case. It's forbidden to walk through any Russian border crossing (with maybe a few exceptions).


You can cross border by foot at Narva-Ivangorod checkpoint.


----------



## alserrod

BTW... can Brennero pass be crossed on foot?

I ask about it because it is motorway and it has a tunnel


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> BTW... can Brennero pass be crossed on foot?
> 
> I ask about it because it is motorway and it has a tunnel


There is the parallel national road.


----------



## alserrod

Thx

I crossed by motorway when I was 17 and asked even in Austra and Italy to stamp my passport.

Austria didn't belong to EU yet in that time but passport control hadn't big queues. I remember Italy-France with a similar queue.


----------



## Kanadzie

italystf said:


> That guy is really getting psychotic and paranoid, like Nicolae Ceausescu in the late 1980s.


it looks like he may well end up the same way!:nuts:
Remember, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you :beer:


----------



## CSerpent

alserrod said:


> In addition, same signal in northern side
> 
> and a borderstone
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/@57.913...4!1sQOQLYNKzpLrtV7niVjdqWg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Yet just beside the borderstone is a lovely little pathway clearly made through the scrub!


----------



## Verso

^^ Indeed, but it's just a few meters behind the signs. And you can ride a bike on it.


----------



## legolego

italystf said:


> Venezuela closed the border with Colombia to block the entrance of humanitarian aids, that are seen by Maduro regime an attempt to interfere with Venezuelan politics by Western countries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.corriere.it/esteri/19_f...8N_TrhJzrDX8fPXwGiuQplSitDqVBQG2lSnzmsIHFWw8I
> 
> That guy is really getting psychotic and paranoid, like Nicolae Ceausescu in the late 1980s.


Only to me it seems a fake photo ?


----------



## house911

What seems fake?


----------



## @[email protected]

house911 said:


> What seems fake?



it looks fake because the picture is a bit blurry. Besides, something like that does not happen daily hno:


----------



## house911

Well a little story.
That bridge never has been in use, it was inaugurated a few years ago but for that time that border was already closed for vehicles, in fact the border was totally close for couple weeks, it after venezuela acuse colombia of being the responsible of the shortages in food, medicines and fuel, after some time the same venezuelans obligates the openness of the border to people cross walking when they see that it has not improved the scarcity and they needed it to buy basic goods and flee...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The new crossing at Cúcuta appears to have been completed in August 2017, according to Google Earth imagery, but all six or seven satellite images taken after that date show no traffic at all.


----------



## italystf

Kanadzie said:


> it looks like he may well end up the same way!:nuts:
> Remember, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you :beer:


Maybe that would be the best outcome possible for Venezuelan people, unless he will be replaced by another Pinochet.


----------



## Stuu

legolego said:


> Only to me it seems a fake photo ?


There are lots of images showing exactly the same thing. It's not impossible to fake lots of images obviously, but the odds are against it:


----------



## alserrod

There have been some news (not now but last week) in Spain about it.

Due to a lot of fake news, there's a well-known TV program that takes those fakes news (and fake statements of politicians, according to what they had said in the past, and even fake statements for science and so on...). They have a well-known twitter account, they accept questions even via whatsapp (for Christmas they recommended to have their mobile number writen somewhere just to ask if a discussion over a fake news was over in any traditional meeting, they are very fast when replying and with accurate links).

Well... they have said nothing about it... thus if a program that takes a lot of fakes just to say incorrect every week and haven't said this time... I would bet for real, not fake.

According to picture, what's bridge name?. It says "international bridge" and it seems to say "tienditas" (it means "little shops")


----------



## Kpc21

Binational


----------



## Stuu

alserrod said:


> According to picture, what's bridge name?. It says "international bridge" and it seems to say "tienditas" (it means "little shops")


It's here. Tienditas seems to be the name of the bridge and the small settlement on the Venezuela side


----------



## alserrod

It's right... it says "binacional"


And WTF, I have seen nearest Venezolan town besides the border is called "Ureña".

Current archbishop in my city is named Ureña.


----------



## chilofiut

international ferry Diaz Ordaz Tamaulipas Mexico -Los Ebanos Texas USA


----------



## alserrod

Interesting... it doesn't appear to have passport control in Mexico and strongly fast in USA.

Weird signals in Mexico where "Stop" appears twice in Spanish just in the border.


BTW... is there any roaming service for phones or quite expensive to move from one country to another a mobile?


----------



## mgk920

alserrod said:


> Interesting... it doesn't appear to have passport control in Mexico and strongly fast in USA.
> 
> Weird signals in Mexico where "Stop" appears twice in Spanish just in the border.
> 
> 
> BTW... is there any roaming service for phones or quite expensive to move from one country to another a mobile?


Mexico has what is called a 'border zone'. It is a strip of land from the USA border to about 100 km inland where passport and immigration control is essentially non-existent. The entire Baja Peninsula is also included in that 'zone'. Traveling from that zone into the Mexican interior is where the strict border control checkpoints are.

Mike


----------



## g.spinoza

mgk920 said:


> Mexico has what is called a 'border zone'. It is a strip of land from the USA border to about 100 km inland where passport and immigration control is essentially non-existent. The entire Baja Peninsula is also included in that 'zone'. Traveling from that zone into the Mexican interior is where the strict border control checkpoints are.
> 
> Mike


That's interesting, I had no idea.
Does that mean that Mexicans need to pass border control even moving from one region to another in their own country?


----------



## General Maximus

The Mexico Free or Border Zone was designated by the Mexican government to make it easier for travelers to enter Mexico and improve tourism along the U.S. border. Vehicles driving in these zones do not need a Temporary Vehicle Importation Permit (TIP). And, for stays less than 72 hours in the Free Zone, a tourist visa is not required.

Additionally, goods—with the exclusion of alcohol, cigarettes, cigars and race horses—can be imported into Mexico duty free, as long as within these boundaries. This way resources can be moved easily across the border for manufacturing and assembly plants. And, once produced, the items can be exported outside of Mexico duty free, giving companies incentive to produce in Mexico, and in turn, creating more jobs for Mexicans living there.

The ‘Free zone’ designation is actually short for ‘Hassle Free Zone,’ but the area has many other names including: Border Zone, Perimeter Zone, Liberated Zone, the Free Trade Zone and ‘Zona Libre’ (in Spanish).

The Mexico Free zone encompasses areas along Mexico’s northern and southern borders. Yet, the entire Baja peninsula and a large portion of Sonora are included in the free zone. For all other Mexican border states, it is the area between 20 and 26 km (12 to 16 miles) from the border.

The Sonora designation is important, because it’s illegal to cross out of the Free Zone without a Temporary Vehicle Import Permit. The free zone in Sonora lies to the northwest of Mexico Federal Highway Number 2, starting at Agua Prieta. It extends through Cananea, to where it intersects with Mexican Federal Highway 15 in Imuris. From Imuris, all of the areas to the north and west of Mexico Federal Highway 15 are included. Kilometer 98, southeast of Empalme, is where the free zone ends.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ the Mexican stringency about "temporary vehicle import" was really insane... at one point basically illegal to leave country without your car. Import tarriffs were gigantically high as well to protect the mostly useless Mexican automotive industry.

This was mostly bypassed with NAFTA era and then car industry in Mexico grew by order of magnitude or more, mostly through exports...


----------



## General Maximus

A long time ago it was illegal to leave your car behind in a different country within Europe.


----------



## Kpc21

So people couldn't buy used cars abroad?


----------



## alserrod

Spanish people living in Spain cannot cross country with a foreing car



Should you have a car outside from EU, you may fill an import form and pay taxes. What I do not know is if it apply to rent-a-car.

Anyway... each time I have seen a fine for that issue (it is considered a fraud... you can, but in the "goods to declare"), it has been after being investigated for another issue, mainly smuggling, sometimes stolen cars.

There is absolutely no control with France and Portugal, quite weak control with Andorra (yeah, cars are quite cheaper but they kwow that in Andorra a new car is only sold to a citizen living in Andorra... second market perhaps... and as far as they will have to go every six months there, they will be caught sometimes without extra controls... and it doesn't matter so much)

But let's consider the typical smuggling fraud (or crime). If all it is ok, maybe go through. It something wrong and they ask all documentation, they must fine you as far as they notice this fault.


Anyway, main control is with cars that come fom anywhere to Africa because they try to catch stolen cars in the border which could come from anywhere in Europe.


----------



## italystf

General Maximus said:


> A long time ago it was illegal to leave your car behind in a different country within Europe.


It's still like that in Turkey and Russia. It means, for example, that you can't drive to Turkey and take a boat trip to a Greek island while leaving your vehicle in Turkey, as you and your car need to leave the country at the same moment.


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> Spanish people living in Spain cannot cross country with a foreing car


Same rule applies for all EU residents. There are numerous stories where an EU citizen has taken a Swiss registered car that doesn't belong to them from CH into the EU, only to get stopped for failing to declare it. 

https://www.thelocal.ch/20140606/german-pensioner-fined-15000-by-austrian-customs-for-border-mistake - example here. 

I had some trouble a few years ago on the HR border with a leased car. They were deeply unhappy about me taking a car that belonged to a German bank (on the papers) across the border into BiH. The problem was that only my company was authorised to take the car across the border, not me as an individual. As the company has a separate legal personality, the border guards considered that I didn't have authorisation to take the car. 

Common sense prevailed when the commander of the border crossing turned up and asked if I'd show him some proof that I'm one of the owners of the company. I showed him a company credit card, and that was enough for him.

Another amusing story comes from a friend who was hired to take some equipment to Banja Luka in 1996. He got from Germany to the SLO/HR border without problem, but then the Slovenian exit was a problem. They called their counterparts from Croatia to come, and they couldn't decide how the goods could legally transit from Macelj to Banja Luka. The reason given was that there was no recognised (by Croatia) Customs authority on the RS-HR border, so therefore the goods couldn't be exported as there was no corresponding import authority.

Finally, they agreed to permit transit as long as he entered BiH through a Sarajevo-controlled border crossing. He gets to the crossing at Velika Kladusa, where the Customs guys tell him that goods destined for the RS should be cleared by RS customs officers rather than FBiH ones at that time. Of course, he's nowhere near RS territory, it's winter, and he's completely fed up of these bureaucratic games. 

He then realises that the British forces are present nearby, so he goes up to them and explains that everyone is acting like idiots. The British forces approach the customs guys and tell them that they have a choice - either they can open the gate and let the goods go, or they'll get their highest ranked officer to protest to his counterpart in the Bosnian Army. They still stand firm, pointing out that they are civilian and not military.

Eventually, some high ranking officer comes to the scene from the nearby camp and explains politely that he's due to have dinner with one of the local main guys that evening, and that he would like to have the situation resolved by then. As soon as the guy's name was mentioned, the cargo was free to go!


----------



## verreme

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ the Mexican stringency about "temporary vehicle import" was really insane... at one point basically illegal to leave country without your car. Import tarriffs were gigantically high as well to protect the *mostly useless* Mexican automotive industry.
> 
> This was mostly bypassed with NAFTA era and then car industry in Mexico grew by order of magnitude or more, mostly through exports...


Yeah, sure. One that supplies the entire North American continent...


----------



## Junkie

Eulanthe said:


> Same rule applies for all EU residents. There are numerous stories where an EU citizen has taken a Swiss registered car that doesn't belong to them from CH into the EU, only to get stopped for failing to declare it.
> 
> https://www.thelocal.ch/20140606/german-pensioner-fined-15000-by-austrian-customs-for-border-mistake - example here.
> 
> I had some trouble a few years ago on the HR border with a leased car. They were deeply unhappy about me taking a car that belonged to a German bank (on the papers) across the border into BiH. The problem was that only my company was authorised to take the car across the border, not me as an individual. As the company has a separate legal personality, the border guards considered that I didn't have authorisation to take the car.
> 
> Common sense prevailed when the commander of the border crossing turned up and asked if I'd show him some proof that I'm one of the owners of the company. I showed him a company credit card, and that was enough for him.
> 
> Another amusing story comes from a friend who was hired to take some equipment to Banja Luka in 1996. He got from Germany to the SLO/HR border without problem, but then the Slovenian exit was a problem. They called their counterparts from Croatia to come, and they couldn't decide how the goods could legally transit from Macelj to Banja Luka. The reason given was that there was no recognised (by Croatia) Customs authority on the RS-HR border, so therefore the goods couldn't be exported as there was no corresponding import authority.
> 
> Finally, they agreed to permit transit as long as he entered BiH through a Sarajevo-controlled border crossing. He gets to the crossing at Velika Kladusa, where the Customs guys tell him that goods destined for the RS should be cleared by RS customs officers rather than FBiH ones at that time. Of course, he's nowhere near RS territory, it's winter, and he's completely fed up of these bureaucratic games.
> 
> He then realises that the British forces are present nearby, so he goes up to them and explains that everyone is acting like idiots. The British forces approach the customs guys and tell them that they have a choice - either they can open the gate and let the goods go, or they'll get their highest ranked officer to protest to his counterpart in the Bosnian Army. They still stand firm, pointing out that they are civilian and not military.
> 
> Eventually, some high ranking officer comes to the scene from the nearby camp and explains politely that he's due to have dinner with one of the local main guys that evening, and that he would like to have the situation resolved by then. As soon as the guy's name was mentioned, the cargo was free to go!


But by 1996 Dayton agreement was already in force so all the borders of BIH were controlled by the state not by the entity itself isnt it ? Anyway its been a huge progress since then, 23 years later......


----------



## Eulanthe

Junkie said:


> But by 1996 Dayton agreement was already in force so all the borders of BIH were controlled by the state not by the entity itself isnt it ? Anyway its been a huge progress since then, 23 years later......


No, the Indirect Tax Authority only came into existence at the state level in the mid 2000's. Until then, the FBiH/RS/Brcko were responsible individually for levying indirect taxes such as import taxes and VAT, and it was the source of most of their revenues until the EU persuaded them to change to a central system for levying indirect taxes.

For border controls, the border police of BiH only started in 2000. 

My friend told me quite a few stories of similarly crazy stories from back then, including a time when he was told to take a delivery "straight to Sarajevo and don't stop once you cross the border". He assumed that it was because of bandits or similar problems, so he does as he was told. He gets to Sarajevo, and it turns out that it was just a delivery for politicians who were impatient and wanted it ASAP.


----------



## alserrod

as a hint... in Spain, everyone is entitled to move within territory but should anyone moves his hometown (address where he declares to live in) from Ceuta, Melilla or Canary Islands to any other side, when changing address in Traffic authority (you may point address for each car. You will be fined if address in car documentation is not the same than in your ID card) will send information to tax authority, just to check you have payed taxes according to a car import.

Taxes are lowest in those areas and they just want to avoid people buying there and moving (well, from Canary islands it just deserves if luxurious cars...). When buying, it is addressed where you live in that moment. If you live in Ceuta, you pay Ceuta taxes. If you go to mainland, free to drive but if you stay for living, when doing all affairs... just do not forget to pay extra taxes


----------



## tfd543

Eulanthe said:


> For border controls, the border police of BiH only started in 2000.



Interesting. Have any pic ?
So What kind of stamps did you get on the passport between 1996 and 2000?

Does all this means that there were customs control whenever crossing to neighboring entities ?


----------



## italystf

In Italy, residents (both Italian citizens and foreigners) aren't allowed to drive vehicles with non-Italian plates. It includes vehicles belonging to relatives or friends living abroad, but not rental vehicles and vehicles owned by a foreign companies in which the Italian driver is employed. If you move to Italy from abroad, you have to change plates within 60 days.
Before this ban came into force, many Italians registered their cars in countries where insuraces and taxes were cheaper and where fines were difficult to address (usually Romania or Bulgaria).

Such limitations in driving foreign-registered vehicles may seem excessive and in contrast with the EU ideology of freedom of movement, but until EU countries have such huge differences in things like taxes, insurance prices, etc..., they are necessary to prevent frauds.


----------



## Kpc21

Eulanthe said:


> Same rule applies for all EU residents. There are numerous stories where an EU citizen has taken a Swiss registered car that doesn't belong to them from CH into the EU, only to get stopped for failing to declare it.


Interestingly, you can avoid paying the custom duty for importing a car from outside the EU (e.g. from Switzerland, from Norway – Switzerland is the most popular non-EU source of cars here in Poland – even though yesterday I was doing a technical inspection of my car and saw someone doing the first inspection for a car he was just importing from Norway) to the EU if the car was made in the EU.



> I had some trouble a few years ago on the HR border with a leased car. They were deeply unhappy about me taking a car that belonged to a German bank (on the papers) across the border into BiH. The problem was that only my company was authorised to take the car across the border, not me as an individual. As the company has a separate legal personality, the border guards considered that I didn't have authorisation to take the car.


If you go abroad with a leased car, it is recommended to get a written consent from the leasing company.



italystf said:


> In Italy, residents (both Italian citizens and foreigners) aren't allowed to drive vehicles with non-Italian plates. It includes vehicles belonging to relatives or friends living abroad, but not rental vehicles and vehicles owned by a foreign companies in which the Italian driver is employed. If you move to Italy from abroad, you have to change plates within 60 days.


I think it's so in most EU countries, if not in all of them.

But this rule isn't really enforced. Like people from Poland living in Germany don't usually re-register their cars in Germany. If they did, they would have to pay the German road tax.

Talking about Poland, there are people opening fictional companies in Slovakia just to legally register a car (it's about expensive and more luxury ones) there for more beneficial taxes.


----------



## stickedy

Kpc21 said:


> I think it's so in most EU countries, if not in all of them.


I am not aware of any restriction that prohibit myself of driving a foreign car here in Germany. And I can't imagine a cause also.



> But this rule isn't really enforced. Like people from Poland living in Germany don't usually re-register their cars in Germany. If they did, they would have to pay the German road tax.


You mismatch that:
1. We don't have a road tax (yet). It's about the car tax
2. You don't have to register your car in Germany if you don't use it more than one year and not regularly in Germany. This is a bit complicated and basically it's all about money: The mentioned car tax.


----------



## Kpc21

You can of course drive a foreign car in any other country – but if you own a car and change the place of residence, you are obliged to re-register it. In Poland, the deadline is actually 30 days after moving here. I don't know why I thought about 60 days... I knew that as it was a question that could have been asked at the driving licence exam – but it was already some years ago... Various countries may have different rules regarding that (Italy – 60 days, Poland – 30 days), so probably they are also different in Germany.

Interestingly, in Sweden it's only... 1 week (on condition that you are going to stay in Sweden for more than half a year – but it seems that this is the rule for all the EU countries): https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/vehicles/registration/registration-abroad//sweden/index_en.htm

How ridiculous it would be to totally prohibit driving cars registered abroad. Let's say you have a permanent place of residence in another country and you registered your car there to comply with the regulations of that country. And you drive to your original country to visit your family. Such rules would force you to re-register your car back to your motherland just for that moment, and you would probably be forced to break the rules of the country where you live now...


----------



## stickedy

I understood it like that is law in Italy and you said that is in all EU countries like that. Maybe we misunderstood each other...

If you are moving to another country, registering your car there is mandatory (with different time frames in each country).

But I got it like that it's completely forbidden in Italy to drive a car with foreign plates even if it's not yours. There is no such law in Germany as long as the car "lives" not in Germany (meaning it is not regularly in Germany)


----------



## alserrod

AFAIK, issue in Spain applies for people LIVING, not with nationality.

This is... People living in Spain must have a car with Spanish plates (and in case of crossing border, declare It)

People living abroad (with residence in another country, working and paying taxes there) may have a foreing plate even if they have nationality.

Should they are stopped in a control, if your car docummentation and your ID card (or passport) fits, no problem...but they must point you are living abroad 

One mate moved to France and Next time I saw him had a French plate car. Normal...but only people living in France can have those plates.

Should he moves his residence back to Spain, he should have to change plates, but not for a holidays


----------



## alserrod

And there are entries to France where they just point department, municipality or ... nothing.


----------



## Alex_ZR

General Maximus said:


> I do. Always good to made feel welcome, and having welcome signs at the border is evidence that a hosting country wants you to be welcome.


There:


----------



## General Maximus

Netherlands


----------



## General Maximus

All the countries of the UK:


----------



## Junkie

Hey newbie guy you are posting jokes.

Here are examples from North Macedonia


----------



## General Maximus

1: I'm not a newbie

2: That's not North Macedonia (not that anyone but you cares...)

3: Cool your tone, a large number of members are getting increasingly annoyed with your posts.


----------



## Palance

General Maximus said:


> Netherlands


This sign is not entirely correct. Yes, the Belgium A1 ends here indeed, but on this sign it looks like a German road number. Belgium uses black road numbers on a white background on road signs. But on this stretch (Antwerpen towards Breda), the road number A1 is not used at all, only the E19. So this is actually the first time for people who drive from Antwerpen towards Breda that they see an A1 on a sign - and you are not in Belgium anymore at this point.
And E19 could also not be used here, since the E19 continues in the Netherlands.
We have more of those signs on our borders, and there are more mistakes on them. So it’s better not to use foreign road numbers, we should only give the cross border traffic a warm welcome here


----------



## Spookvlieger

in Belgium they only do it with regional signs but most notable are those of Limburg wich are on every single road in contrast with the other provinces wich can only be seen sporadic on some roads.


----------



## alserrod

As an example, second main used crossing border Spain-France (in Atlantic, Mediterranean cross has more traffic)

Tolled motorway

Through Spain

Last signal in France is from motorway company that says in French (big) and Spanish and Basque (small) "thank you and see you later".

Ahead, name of province (nothing about Spain nor Basque country)
There's a cross to Pamplona by national road (I recommend it, safe, peaceful, nice scapes and less km) before

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.339...4!1sxUTxPRZWCYOnDOouSmW-UQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Through France

This sing.... just 1m after border (border is in the middle of the river) in French only "stop, toll" is the only issue border was crossed

Ahead, after tolls (there's an exit before) name of department only

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.339...4!1sjklSv5woL4Zvn8_8zsQ2MQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Nearest road/street (WTF, in Spain they point "Baiona" instead of "Hendaia"!!!!!!)

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.344...4!1sGCLX5GkO38CTKlBPoFJzmg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

In the border, name of historical territory in France and later Hendaye
In Spain, name of province


Same in another bridge. This time, they point "Hendaia / Baiona" at least. Only local names in bridge (and a police control in French side just in the middle of the bridge when Google crossed it)

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.349...4!1sNuhnDtSCTIgqILenVUiN4A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Railway, as easy as taking a train and next stop is in France. There aren't facilities for a control made by Spanish police (and French police, just glancing who gets off in a commuter station)

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.349...4!1sX1Zr2vCadSoC5ufwbCFdWg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656



And... no international but as some local forumers told me, providing not bad weather, all planes departing EAS airport crosses over France as can be seen

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3563693,-1.7917766,1366m/data=!3m1!1e3



AP-8 is main Paris - Lisbon/Madrid/Morocco border pass though AP-7 has a little more traffic.

Even local crossing border, even tolled motorway do not point you crossed a country


----------



## alserrod

OK guys... back to border pictures, will we?


Spanish mod team has missed for a while a member... but he has sent cheers and says he's fine and strongly recommend to visit that area. In some days will be back with more pictures but as an example



Obidos said:


> Aqui dejo estas de momento
> 
> 
> Cataratas Victoria desde el lado de Zambia. (Livingstone)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hay un puente de hierro, construido en 1905, para coches/camiones y tren, que une Zambia y Zimbabue. Desde este puente esta hecha la primera foto. Yo fui caminando desde el parque de las cataratas. Se accede al puente caminando tras pasar un puesto de control fronterizo donde dejas el pasaporte. El puente es territorio neutral y no exigen visado para pasar a Zimbabue.
> 
> Hay un tren, antiguo y para turistas, que hace el recorrido desde Livingstone (Zambia) hasta el puente, y se detiene justamente en la linea que divide el puente del lado de Zambia con el de Zimbabue.



and guess they were taken here

https://www.google.com/maps/place/V...064359416ab317!8m2!3d-17.9318052!4d25.8255575


----------



## Kanadzie

verreme said:


> Yeah, sure. One that supplies the entire North American continent...


not before NAFTA happened... exports were basically zero


----------



## italystf

After few years... Any news about the "Liberland" issue at the Serbo-Croatian disputed border?


----------



## Junkie

^^
According to my knowledge Danube is making islands depending on the season and both countries dispute this area. So this is not a political issue but rather can be possibly explained geodesically. 
For example its not like the Savudrija dispute between SLO & HR


----------



## Verso

Junkie said:


> For example its not like the Savudrija dispute between SLO & HR


There's no dispute about Savudrija, only about the Gulf of Piran.


----------



## Junkie

^^
On Croatian side its called Savudrijska vala so you know very well I am pointing to the exact dispute, which and according to my opinion (as you again know) Croatia is right to claim this area.


----------



## Verso

Everyone else calls it the Gulf of Piran. And no one cares about your opinion.


----------



## General Maximus

They'll work it out. Slovenian-Croatian relations are good. And they're both in the EU. 

Unlike North Macedonia...


----------



## stickedy

General Maximus said:


> They'll work it out. Slovenian-Croatian relations are good. And they're both in the EU.
> 
> Unlike North Macedonia...


The relations are not that good. There is ongoing trouble about this border issues... Slovenia was long blocking Croatian entry to EU for example.


----------



## Tom9504

stickedy said:


> The relations are not that good. There is ongoing trouble about this border issues... Slovenia was long blocking Croatian entry to EU for example.


Exactly and at the moment they're blocking entry to Schengen area...:bash:


----------



## Junkie

Slovenia is actually blocking Croatia's entry to Schengen zone and has advocated for Croatia to accept something than cannot be accepted.


----------



## General Maximus

P&O Ferries between Dover and Calais must be the only ferry company in Europe operating between two countries that does accept Euros, but change given are pounds sterling only. DFDS (Danish but on Dover-Calais operated by the French) has both currencies fully operational.
I've asked P&O why they don't do the same. Answer: this is a British ship. What a load of bullshit!

Otter routes between countries that use different currencies have both tenders next to each other without any problems..

Germany-Denmark, Denmark-Sweden, Sweden-Finland, UK-Ireland, UK-Netherlands (P&O Rotterdam to Hull I'm not sure about. I know Stena Line has both currencies operating fully)


----------



## g.spinoza

General Maximus said:


> P&O Ferries between Dover and Calais must be the only ferry company in Europe operating between two countries that does accept Euros, but change given are pounds sterling only. DFDS (Danish but on Dover-Calais operated by the French) has both currencies fully operational.
> I've asked P&O why they don't do the same. Answer: this is a British ship. What a load of bullshit!


They voted for Brexit.


----------



## General Maximus

Possibly. They display the same attitude as the average Brexiteer...


----------



## italystf

Kanadzie said:


> the question is... will the Croatian parking ticket arrive at your home or not :lol:


Within EU (plus Switzerland/Norway) is highly possible.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> I'm surprised that such small territories do have their own currency. What's the point of not using the GBP? Just "national" pride? European microstates, that are fully independent, never had their own currency.


Vatican lira, Sammarinese lira, Maltese lira, Monégasque franc.


----------



## havaska

italystf said:


> I'm surprised that such small territories do have their own currency. What's the point of not using the GBP? Just "national" pride? European microstates, that are fully independent, never had their own currency.




Maybe it’s just historical, and they’ve always had their own? I agree it does seem daft.


----------



## alserrod

Malta had second highest price for a currency in the world.

About 1 MTL = 3 EUR

record is Kuwait dinar


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Vatican lira, Sammarinese lira, Maltese lira, Monégasque franc.


Vatican and Sammarinese lira were just regular lira coins with a different design, freely exchangeable with Italian coins. There were no Vatican or Sammarinese banknotes.


----------



## alserrod

and that was the reason why they started (with Monaco) having 1 euro coins in those countries.

They were made according to local population, thus Vatican euro were almost all of them gone to heritage or so, due to so few number.


Anyway... one question I posted... should you have a mainland banknote and go to a territory with a different currency but a 1:1 rate. Exchange is for free?


----------



## Eulanthe

italystf said:


> but it has a foreign currency (the Euro) widely used, like in Gibraltar.


Gibraltar isn't a good example. Euro is commonly accepted, but usually not at a good rate with the exception of a few places. For instance, bus fares: £1.80 or €2.40. €2.40 is actually £2.06, so it's over 10% margin applied. It can be even worse, for instance, the cable car applies a margin of around 20% on EUR transactions, and I've seen some outrageous offers being given to tourists wanting to pay in EUR. 

Big ticket items are priced exclusively in pounds, and EUR is only really used as a tourist currency.


----------



## Junkie

^^
Well....... Brexit is a disaster of epic proportions for western European free market. I wonder how will the border with the mention Gibraltar and the UK overall work after one of the worst political decision ever happened in the western world. It is simply weakening both sides...


----------



## General Maximus

I thought I'd never see the day that you'd receive a like from me. But I couldn't agree more. Miracles do happen...


----------



## italystf

Junkie said:


> ^^
> Well....... Brexit is a disaster of epic proportions for western European free market. I wonder how will the border with the mention Gibraltar and the UK overall work after one of the worst political decision ever happened in the western world. It is simply weakening both sides...


Not to mention the Irish issue... there's the risk to have troubles (indeed, The Troubles) again. hno:


----------



## Eulanthe

Junkie said:


> . I wonder how will the border with the mention Gibraltar and the UK overall work


They announced that there won't be controls on the Irish border (!) and there won't be controls between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47544149

About the Gibraltar border - this is really a huge problem. Spain doesn't have the infrastructure required for non-EU commercial imports and exports at the La Linea crossing. They've got space, but it's almost certain that there will be trouble there. 

For cars, it really depends on Madrid. If they implement checks as if it's a full non-EU border, then the border is going to be completely jammed. The EU will also have nothing to say about it, because Gibraltar will be non-EU and it should be treated as a full non-EU border.


----------



## General Maximus

^^ "The government does not intend".

But government intentions and what parlement or EU wants are complete different things. We've seen that over the last two years. 

We'll know more the next two days. This country has lost its mind.


----------



## alserrod

For Cars I reckon It will remain as today as far as controls are focused on smuggling


----------



## General Maximus

Not quite. In case of a no-deal, British motorists are required to apply for a international driver's license, in order to allow them to drive in the EU. They need another one for Spain. They may also be subjected to visas.

EU citizens traveling to Britain are as of now not affected.


----------



## bogdymol

I just crossed the border from Republic of Ireland into Northern Ireland. No signs so far that they are preparing any controls. 

I’ll cross it again 2 times today, in different locations. Let’s see...


----------



## General Maximus

I'm on my way to Ireland as well. Yesterday I was in Dublin, and now I'm going to Dublin again via Fishguard to Roslare.

Last week I crossed the Irish border. Ferry from Birkenhead to Belfast, then Craigavon, then a few things to do in Dublin. 

In Dublin and Holyhead there is a presence. In Dublin the Garda (police) asked me if I was a UK or EU citizen (driving with UK plates at the moment) and in Holyhead I had the UK border force asking me a couple of questions last week. UK and Irish customs are respectively active in all ports.


----------



## Fatfield

WTO import tariffs have been set in case of a no deal scenario. https://news.sky.com/story/majority-of-uk-import-tariffs-set-at-zero-in-a-no-deal-brexit-11663849 The EU has also confirmed WTO tariffs on UK for the same outcome.

Parliament is voting tonight on whether to rule out No Deal altogether.

Personally I'd like the lunatics in the asylum to vote against no deal, revoke A50 and then just forget it ever happened in the first place. Unlikely, but one can dream. Alternatively Damon Evans on Twitter has a canny idea.


----------



## italystf

It's 2019. It would make sense to make a mobile-friendly website or an app to tell waiting time at border crossings.


----------



## Junkie

Croatia has this quite long and its perfectly updated. You can see every international border crossing, both ways and I think only the crossings with local permission are only not shown.

https://m.hak.hr/kamera.asp?g=2


----------



## Kanadzie

italystf said:


> It's 2019. It would make sense to make a mobile-friendly website or an app to tell waiting time at border crossings.


or, manage their border properly so border waiting time is always acceptable +/- 2 minutes or less 

I really dislike the kind of "not our problem" about the border wait times... if there is a queue, call people in and open more booths... they are usually even often there!

can you imagine any kind of business operating in this fashion? when did you ever wait, say, 45 min or 1 h in a queue to purchase gasoline or a coffee? The people crossing the border are the customers of the border agency.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> It's 2019. It would make sense to make a mobile-friendly website or an app to tell waiting time at border crossings.


There is one, of course.

https://www.promet.si/portal/en/1traffic-conditions.aspx



Kanadzie said:


> or, manage their border properly so border waiting time is always acceptable +/- 2 minutes or less


-2 minutes of waiting?


----------



## Corvinus

italystf said:


> Are visas valid for only some of the Schengen countries even possible?


Somewhere around this forum there was a post of a Polish-issued Schengen visa scan. It was issued to a Kosovan passport and said like "Schengen area - (minus) ES, GR, SK", i.e. excluded those Schengen countries not recognizing a separate Kosovan citizenship.


----------



## parcdesprinces

*Franco-Spain border @ Latour-de-Carol International Station (known as the sole in Europe with three different rail gauges :bow*





























:drool:








PS: oh and indeed, *le Train Jaune* is a "voie métrique" as we say in French. (just like the very famous Franco-Swiss "*Mont-Blanc Express*")...


----------



## ntom

Corvinus said:


> Somewhere around this forum there was a post of a Polish-issued Schengen visa scan. It was issued to a Kosovan passport and said like "Schengen area - (minus) ES, GR, SK", i.e. excluded those Schengen countries not recognizing a separate Kosovan citizenship.


That must be a really old visa, at least from 2011.


----------



## tfd543

Eulanthe said:


> Yes, you can, it's quite normal. I called the Slovenian border station at Gruskovje one night about 10pm when heading towards Macelj to ask them how the situation was, because traffic was quite heavy at the toll station in Zagreb, and they told me everything - how far back the queue was, how long the estimated wait was and they suggested an alternative route.




Really? Haha. Could they speak english fluently? I imagine truck drivers calling just to plan the route and sleeping when time is due


----------



## Alex_ZR

Corvinus said:


> Somewhere around this forum there was a post of a Polish-issued Schengen visa scan. It was issued to a Kosovan passport and said like "Schengen area - (minus) ES, GR, SK", i.e. excluded those Schengen countries not recognizing a separate Kosovan citizenship.





ntom said:


> That must be a really old visa, at least from 2011.


----------



## pai nosso

*Portugal (Valença do Minho) / Tui (Spain-Galicia) *


Source: pai nosso

P.S.: Show off by the portuguese police by orders of the national government!!:lol::lol:


----------



## Junkie

Corvinus said:


> Somewhere around this forum there was a post of a Polish-issued Schengen visa scan. It was issued to a Kosovan passport and said like "Schengen area - (minus) ES, GR, SK", i.e. excluded those Schengen countries not recognizing a separate Kosovan citizenship.


Kosovo is not recognized by Romania, Cyprus, Greece, Slovakia and Spain, also Moldova, Ukraine, Russia, Serbia, Georgia, Belarus and BIH.

Now three of those eu countries are Schengen countries, how can they issue this visa when there is a freedom of movement between them....... There is another circus, some countries dont recognize the country but recognize the traveling documents. For example Slovakia is accepting Kosovo passport, but Spain dont want to hear about it..... I am not really convinced that black stamp and refused entry might be applied. Also I have seen Kosovo passport entering Greece, they accept the passport and the visa issued by another schengen country


----------



## eucitizen

Slovakia recognizes Kosovo passport to enter the country. This is true since 17. of July 2012 .

About Greece I found this:

Following Kosovo’s declaration of independence in 2008, travel to Greece was possible for Kosovo passport holders through a visa issued on a special paper, though for six years it was not issued into the Kosovar passport and Schengen visa holders were not permitted entry into Greece. In 2014 there was a change of policy and Greece started issuing Schengen visas directly into Kosovar passports. This change made the movement of Kosovars to Greece a lot simpler, and raised hopes of a possible shift of the Greek position on Kosovo.

https://kosovotwopointzero.com/en/recognition-denied-greece/


----------



## Junkie

^^
Slovakia recognizes passport but denies Schengen visa and there is no real border to that country except from Ukraine which again doesnt recognize no Kosovo.

I think according to Geneva convention, Kosovo citizen risks black stamp if goes to a country that doesnt recognize it, thats why its unclear why some countries recognize the traveling documents only.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> You really know how to annoy them, don't you?


I'm surprised my passport doesn't bring up a "get rid of him as quickly as possible" warning  

I've discovered that according to EU law, I can still use local SLO/HR border crossings post-Brexit. I think I'm going to have to stay somewhere with a nice playground on the other side of the border again, just like in Razkrizje :lol:

About Slovenian border police - all of them speak some English from what I've found. Croatians are much worse, but Croatian is easier to understand for Polish speakers.


----------



## ntom

Greece and Slovakia both recognise passports and issue *Schengen* visas to Kosovo citizens, which is more than some could say for their country. Only Spain nowadays does not do this.

P.S.: Contrary to what some may believe, Kosovo enjoys great relations with both Slovakia and Greece, which are both supporters for Visa Liberalisation and EU integration of Kosovo. They both have their missions in Prishtina and have regular meetings with the government officials. Romania too. For those not in the know China and Russia have their missions in Prishtina too. Kosovo is soon set to open it's mission in Athens.

Sorry for the off-topic. I wish someone would cease-and-desist junkers just dabbling about.


----------



## tfd543

Has someone ever been refused at a border check point and why did it happen ?


----------



## Verso

No, but I was once (in 2000) in Croatia without documents. Forgot them at home.  I was on a bus and they didn't check us.


----------



## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> Has someone ever been refused at a border check point and why did it happen ?


Yup, got refused to cross several SLO/HR local border crossings after Croatia joined the EU and the border guards didn't know that EU citizens could cross at them. I tried again last summer by crossing constantly for two weeks between SLO/HR (I wrote about it here), but no luck :lol:. The only time I managed to be told "no, go away" was when one border crossing was already closed for the night. 

My friend was refused entry to Germany one night (pre-EU) for being very, very drunk. He's Polish, he was living in Frankfurt (Oder) and went to a party in Słubice. He came back across the border bridge at about 3am completely wasted and barely able to walk in the middle of winter without a jacket, and they told him to go into an empty office at the border crossing to sleep it off. 

Apparently they weren't too impressed with the fact that he wasn't even able to stand straight, and it was clearly too dangerous to let him walk back across the bridge in that state. 

Another friend used to go drinking in Gorlitz because you could buy beer or wine/drink on the streets legally there. She got busted coming back to Poland, because the Polish border guard smelt booze while her ID card said she was only 16. They were nice about it though, and told her to go buy some chewing gum before going home.


----------



## bogdymol

I was once refused exiting Romania towards Hungary, by the Romanian border police. It was in August, everyone was going somewhere on vacation, and all the border crossings were congested with long waiting lines. I knew that during week-ends, there is a small border crossing open just for the local people. I drove there, tried to cross, but apparently my ID card issued about 50 km from that place wasn't "local" enough, so they did not let me go through. I was alone in the middle of the field with the border police, no other traffic around, but they still wouldn't let me go. I had to go to a permanent crossing where I waited 1h in line to get to the other side.

I also drove once from Austria towards Romania, and after entering Hungary I remembered I forgot all my documents in Austria (400 km away). I had to drive back to get them (so crossed twice the internal Schengen border without any ID). I literally had no document with me.


----------



## Verso

So you drove extra 800 km?


----------



## Verso

parcdesprinces said:


>


Those are really weird languages for a French passport. First French, what's on the second place, Danish?! Then German, Greek (?!), English only on the fifth place. What's on the sixth place, Celtic?? And finally, Italian and Dutch.



MichiH said:


> Just out of curiosity, for what reason could I be refused? I wanna travel to Albania, NMK and Bulgaria soon. What could I do wrong to get refused? I have German ID / passport, green card, all car documents,... don't drive drunk, don't take or smuggle drugs or arms... For what reason could be refused? If they just don't like my face?


Is it that bad? :lol:



alserrod said:


> We didn't have any passport


Why are you surprised you were refused entry? :lol:



Surel said:


> I guess I was lucky. My Czech ID card was expired for a few weeks and I combined the visit to CZ with filing for the new one. I had a passport with me, but I did not have it on me all the time. In between I made several trips to Poland. On one occasion there was a border control at the Polish side reinstated for several days. I forgot about the ID, but the Polish police did see it right away and told me my ID is expired. I showed them my Dutch residence ID and Dutch driving license but they said that those documents are irrelevant  to them. We had a small chat, I tried some Polish, we laughed and they they let me go to drive off and do my shopping in Poland. :banana:


My mum once went to a party in Croatia, but forgot her documents at home. She only realized it at the border. They let her go, because the party was at the first house after the border and the police officers knew the people living there.


----------



## parcdesprinces

Verso said:


> Those are really weird languages for a French passport. First French, what's on the second place, Danish?! Then German, Greek (?!), English only on the fifth place. What's on the sixth place, Celtic?? And finally, Italian and Dutch.


LOL ! I've never realized that actually.. Weird indeed! :laugh: (but I'm sure there are some "very official" reasons behind this :dunno



P.S. Funny BTW, no-cyrillic on it... wonder why :hmm:.. (knowing it's an 80s passport = Cold War). :horse:


----------



## eucitizen

When was issued that passport? Wasn´t italready a European Community model? Then afterall there are on it the languages of the member states of EC at that time.


----------



## parcdesprinces

eucitizen said:


> When was issued that passport?


April *1987* *A*nno *D*omini :bowtie::


















©Parcdesprinces-right now


= Silly, silly me :wallbash:... of course those were the official languages of the EC back then indeed! (as simple as that.. re-silly me! ( = LOL, shame on me about that hno)


----------



## Verso

I wasn't thinking about it for such an old passport. For me, history of the EU begins in 1993. :lol:


----------



## Markowice10

Verso said:


> I wasn't thinking about it for such an old passport. For me, history of the EU begins in 1993. :lol:


1 May 2004: CZ, CY, EST, LT , LV, M, PL, SK, SLO, H

2007: BG, RO

2013: HR

20.. ???


----------



## General Maximus

1992: treaty of Maastricht. Major change after 2004.


----------



## Palance

Alex_ZR said:


> Never seen such speed limit. Otherwise it's meaningless, why not 10 instead?


Border crossing Karasovići (HR-MNE)


----------



## Junkie

Markowice10 said:


> 1 May 2004: CZ, CY, EST, LT , LV, M, PL, SK, SLO, H
> 
> 2007: BG, RO
> 
> 2013: HR
> 
> 20.. ???


I think the next enlargement will happen in 2028 after major reforms happen in the EU itself. So far only Montenegro might catch from the candidate countries. The criteria for becoming member will be more complex and scepticism will also rise. I am not an optimist about the Balkan, unfortunately. Also, I dont see Ukraine in the EU in the next 25 years for sure. Bosnia and Hercegovina might become a candidate in 2020 which will mean additional 15 years for joining.


----------



## parcdesprinces

Markowice10 said:


> 1 May 2004: CZ, CY, EST, LT , LV, M, PL, SK, SLO, H


Aka (IMHO of course) the first day of a tragic, long, very long collapse of what we (us ...I mean me :shifty used to call UE/EU (EC/CE) :colbert: !!!


_#bringbacktheeurotwelveifnottheeurosix_


----------



## parcdesprinces

Junkie said:


> I think the next enlargement will happen in 2028 after major reforms happen in the EU itself.


:nuts:

Keep dreaming, dear ...= there won't be any EU/UE enlargement in the near future... (I mean as long as most of us western people -via our representatives - will veto such crazy idea) 

And I'm serious on this one !!! :gunz:



P.S. anyway, we are waaay off topic actually... my mistake/mea culpa.


----------



## Alex_ZR

parcdesprinces said:


> :nuts:
> 
> Keep dreaming, dear ...= there won't be any EU/UE enlargement in the near future... (I mean as long as most of us western people -via our representatives - will veto such crazy idea)
> 
> And I'm serious on this one !!! :gunz:
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. anyway, we are waaay off topic actually... my mistake/mea culpa.


Macron, is that you? :troll:


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ Nope, this is Brigitte actually on the board !


----------



## Markowice10

European travels 19 years ago. 
There were boundaries everywhere. 
The Schengen era was only in dreams. 
Citizens of Central Europe had to have visas in their passports.











^^


----------



## Junkie

....


----------



## Junkie

parcdesprinces said:


> :nuts:
> 
> I mean as long as most of *us western people*


LOL a superior westerner


----------



## parcdesprinces

Junkie said:


> LOL why you even think that you are superior mate ?


????

Euuh.. Never said (nor thought) such a thing, dude .


(but indeed, I must confess I described indeed a well known reality among a very large part of tax payers & voters over here in western Europe, pro-EU ones included).


Sorry for the misunderstanding.


----------



## parcdesprinces

Markowice10 said:


>


Tsss, I was Polish before you!!  

:troll:


Still the same passport I posted earlier above:


parcdesprinces said:


> ©parcdesprinces


----------



## Alex_ZR

Markowice10 said:


> European travels 19 years ago.


 2019
-1990
29

Do you feel old already? :lol:


----------



## Markowice10

Alex_ZR said:


> 2019
> -1990
> 29
> 
> Do you feel old already? :lol:


Oh, sh... time is time :bash:


----------



## Markowice10

parcdesprinces said:


> Tsss, I was Polish before you!!
> 
> :troll:
> 
> 
> Still the same passport I posted earlier above:






In 1987, Poland was behind the iron curtain. 
The name was strange: Polska Rzeczpospolita Ludowa. *Polish PEOPLE'S Republic.* :007:












My passport from 1990 was an old model. 
But this was the year of the revolution! And we were *children of the revolution.* (*T-Rex*) :cheers:



^^


----------



## Junkie

I didnt know Russian language was inscripted on travel documents in soviet satellite states.


----------



## Markowice10

Junkie said:


> I didnt know Russian language was inscripted on travel documents in soviet satellite states.


There is no text in English in the old passport !!! :nuts:

Until 1990, Russian was compulsorily taught at school, two hours a week. 
But of course no one spoke Russian on the street in Poland.


----------



## parcdesprinces

Markowice10 said:


> In 1987, Poland was behind the iron curtain.


Are you sure about that??  

'Cause indeed I remember very well the awful *6 hours* at the DDR-Poland border we spent (I was traveling with my Catholic Choir*), when the customs officers opened ALL our luggages, one, after one = :nuts: times that was, I agree! 

* in a very XXIst century Mercedes bus with AC etc...I precise....not to be snobbish but just because the glasses of the damned bus coudn't be opened = hot, very hot = bad, bad memories  (oh and I was only 8... just to be clear)


----------



## Verso

Alex_ZR said:


> 2019
> -1990
> 29
> 
> Do you feel old already? :lol:


My first thought was: "Who in Central Europe needed visas in 2000?"


----------



## parcdesprinces

Markowice10 said:


>


Interesting:

Polish, Russian/cyrillic...and...French! 

:grouphug:


----------



## stickedy

French is the Lingua Franca in border, customs and motorist matters.


----------



## cinxxx

Verso said:


> My first thought was: "Who in Central Europe needed visas in 2000?"


I traveled to Germany in 2000 and had to get a Schengen Visa back then. Got one for 1 month and it occupied a whole page from my passport. Not that I used it much afterwards...

Travelling alone by bus over 24h that was a treat :lol:
But I was 16, had quite a fun time


----------



## Theijs

Junkie said:


> ^^
> Most reasons for refusing entry in NMK or Albania as you mentioned is not having a green card. This is the most common reason "normal" people are refused. Also if the car you are driving is on a company name they might ask for stamped permission from the company on your own name. If your car certificate is registered in a name on another person not in company with you they might also ask you for permission which here is issued by the automotive public registration company.


That happened to a German driver in front of me at the PL/UA border. UA customs denied entrance and told him to drive back (Aachen).


----------



## Markowice10

parcdesprinces said:


> Are you sure about that??
> 
> 'Cause indeed I remember very well the awful *6 hours* at the DDR-Poland border we spent (I was traveling with my Catholic Choir*), when the customs officers opened ALL our luggages, one, after one = :nuts: times that was, I agree!
> 
> * in a very XXIst century Mercedes bus with AC etc...I precise....not to be snobbish but just because the glasses of the damned bus coudn't be opened = hot, very hot = bad, bad memories  (oh and I was only 8... just to be clear)




In the Eastern Bloc before 1989, passports were placed in the police office and issued only for one trip.
A special fee was paid for crossing the border.
After returning home, the passport was sent to the police deposit, obligatory. :bash:


----------



## Verso

I've just discovered this interesting map of visa requirements for citizens of Yugoslavia in 1983 (of course I don't know how accurate it is).

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...ane_SFR_Jugoslavije_(stanje_1983._godine).jpg


----------



## Attus

Markowice10 said:


> In the Eastern Bloc before 1989, passports were placed in the police office and issued only for one trip.
> A special fee was paid for crossing the border.
> After returning home, the passport was sent to the police deposit, obligatory.


It may have been so in Poland but surely not in every socialist countries.


----------



## Junkie

Verso said:


> I've just discovered this interesting map of visa requirements for citizens of Yugoslavia in 1983 (of course I don't know how accurate it is).
> 
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...ane_SFR_Jugoslavije_(stanje_1983._godine).jpg


Well..... A world citizen from a socialist country. Unseen in world history.
:cheers::cheers::cheers::applause::applause:


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> I've just discovered this interesting map of visa requirements for citizens of Yugoslavia in 1983 (of course I don't know how accurate it is).
> 
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...ane_SFR_Jugoslavije_(stanje_1983._godine).jpg


Yugoslavia and Italy mutually agreed visa-free travel between each other in 1966. That's interesting, as territorial disputes between them weren't officially solved until 1975.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Verso said:


> I've just discovered this interesting map of visa requirements for citizens of Yugoslavia in 1983 (of course I don't know how accurate it is).
> 
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...ane_SFR_Jugoslavije_(stanje_1983._godine).jpg


My father claims that he visited Switzerland and Sweden without visas in 1982.


----------



## Kpc21

stickedy said:


> French is the Lingua Franca in border, customs and motorist matters.


And in diplomacy in general.

English was a language of the enemy in those times. So French remained a lingua franca for those matters even when just for random international communications it became mostly replaced by English. Simply as a more neutral (and also quite well-known around the world) language.

I guess still most if not all the passports have French in them while for sure there are still some without English.

Why Russian? Russian still is a lingua franca of the ex-Soviet countries.



tfd543 said:


> Well just Europe. Or Lets say EU Union.
> 
> Teletext? Really. Lol. Have a pic ?


Of the teletext in general or of those pages with border waiting times? 

I don't know about other countries but here in Poland teletext is still active, although I don't know anyone who would use it nowadays.

On a local channel of the state TV it's no longer kept so much up to date, they removed the public transport timetables, they don't update schedules of cinemas and theatres, the local news aren't updated every day but once a week. The section with small ads is empty at most time  And their culinary section "the dish of the day" shows a recipe for the same salad already for a few years 

But the teletext on the main TV channels is still kept up to date. I checked it yesterday 

Sorry for going off the topic, we can continue the discussion in the Roadside Rest Area.


----------



## tfd543

Verso said:


> I've just discovered this interesting map of visa requirements for citizens of Yugoslavia in 1983 (of course I don't know how accurate it is).
> 
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...ane_SFR_Jugoslavije_(stanje_1983._godine).jpg




Cant see it but would be interesting. Was it more than 100 countries?


----------



## alserrod

stickedy said:


> French is the Lingua Franca in border, customs and motorist matters.


Once I was asked for an international birth data document for another country. Price was the same but I had to request that international one. The only different was all documents were in one language only (I guess 90% of those documents are issued to have first ID card only) and international one was bilingual Spanish-French and in the opposite side of the paper, ten or twelve other languages to know which information is each one





Kpc21 said:


> And in diplomacy in general.


In Olympic games, for instance. Glance Tokyo2020 webpage. It is in Japanese, English and French

For postal services too





> Of the teletext in general or of those pages with border waiting times?
> 
> I don't know about other countries but here in Poland teletext is still active, although I don't know anyone who would use it nowadays.


After almost all information is available with a smartphone it is really down. Anyway, I read Spanish public TV remains with teletext because it is managed by fanatic of that system, they started with only 5 hours service daily, expanded and enlarged it. It hasn't changed too much but it remains

If you wanna glance

http://www.rtve.es/television/teletexto/100/

It is the same information you would watch on TV

(last time I was glancing it for more than 2 minutes seemed to be a joke!!!, I was with friends in a tiny village and mobiles were down. We wanted to know sport results and the only way was... teletext because it is updated each time score changes!!!)


BTW, related to Visa, the only one I have requested was... in Tunisia. I was in a cruise, it was enough with cruise card or ID card for all countries (EU ones) but passport and a visa for Tunisia was required. Several officers entered into the ship, you had to fill and they just stamped and kept half of it. They didn't checked too much but you had to gave it again when entering the ship for leaving the country.

It was a sort of control like in the Argo movie but, obviously not so hard control. They only wanted to know that if they allowed 743 people to entry, several hours later, 743 people had left the country.


----------



## Kpc21

alserrod said:


> For postal services too


Railway in Europe traditionally uses French or German.



alserrod said:


> (last time I was glancing it for more than 2 minutes seemed to be a joke!!!, I was with friends in a tiny village and mobiles were down. We wanted to know sport results and the only way was... teletext because it is updated each time score changes!!!)


Once I read someone's port on a forum or blog about how it was to be a sports fan in the past, when there were no Internet and no specialized TV channels (like Eurosport) yet. The only source of getting the score changes "online" was the teletext.

You can see the teletext of our main channel here: http://www.telegazeta.pl/telegazeta.php



alserrod said:


> BTW, related to Visa, the only one I have requested was... in Tunisia. I was in a cruise, it was enough with cruise card or ID card for all countries (EU ones) but passport and a visa for Tunisia was required. Several officers entered into the ship, you had to fill and they just stamped and kept half of it. They didn't checked too much but you had to gave it again when entering the ship for leaving the country.


I was crossing the border to Tunisia at an airport once and to Turkey once at a road border crossing and once at an airport.

Turkey changed the system afterwards and now their visas are online but generally those visas were (and for Tunisia probably still are) like a postal stamp, with the price on it – without any specific data about the person for which the visa is issued. And you get it without any problem or being checked at the checkpoint. It's just a way to charge some money for entering the country and nothing more.


----------



## MichiH

Kpc21 said:


> Once I read someone's port on a forum or blog about how it was to be a sports fan in the past, when there were no Internet and no specialized TV channels (like Eurosport) yet. The only source of getting the score changes "online" was the teletext.


Yep, I used it very much in 1990s  My grandpa (87) is still using it.

btw: It's called "videotext" in German.


----------



## alserrod

parcdesprinces said:


> I _liked_ your post.. but... what "periclave" means? ... apparently its a Spanish language word.. according to wiki..
> 
> ... and sorry, but I'm a "quiche*" (*french word to say I'm really, really a zero) in Spanish language..
> 
> :dunno:


A corner of the territory, with continuation (not an exclave) but it requires to cross another country to go (because there's a lake, mountains, no roads and so on)


----------



## Kpc21

Markowice10 said:


> It depends only on us


No, it also depends on millions other citizens of our countries...


----------



## Verso

@parcdesprinces, it looks like a Yugoslav stamp, but I don't know what it says. Where did you cross the border?


----------



## Alex_ZR

Verso said:


> @parcdesprinces, it looks like a Yugoslav stamp, but I don't know what it says. Where did you cross the border?


I think it says KOZINA.


----------



## mgk920

Kanadzie said:


> It is really in these kind of areas where the simple logic of the Schegen area really proves the massive benefit to people's lives.


It looks like a state line crossing here in the USA.

Mike


----------



## parcdesprinces

Verso said:


> @parcdesprinces, it looks like a Yugoslav stamp, but I don't know what it says. Where did you cross the border?


The stamp is very faded but apparently as Alex_ZR mentioned above it seems to be "Kozina".... So problem solved.


----------



## Markowice10

Kpc21 said:


> No, it also depends on millions other citizens of our countries...


We are part of millions, essential. 
In the 1980s, we were also individuals among millions, efficiently! 
We are the champions. :fire:


----------



## Verso

Alex_ZR said:


> I think it says KOZINA.


Interesting, I thought of Kozina, but it looks more like BOSNIA to me. :lol: It's also similar to BRNIK (Ljubljana airport).


----------



## Markowice10

parcdesprinces said:


> BTW, dear ex-Yugo' grouphug... I need your help on this:
> 
> 
> Still from my very first Passport... but in 1989 I guess this time ..anyway..
> 
> .. is it a _Yougoslavie_ stamp?? ('cause I'm not sure :dunno :
> 
> 
> 
> P.S Which is sure anyway is the fact that I've been in the great Yugoslavia in '89 (Ljubljana included) :yes: :bowtie: ...






I drove through the *Goričan *border crossing to *Yugoslavia* on June 20, 1991. 
Five days later it was *Croatia* that declared independence and the war broke out. 
I was already in Italy.














I could not return to Poland through Slovenia and Croatia, in July 1991. 
A real war was underway that stopped me in Italian Trieste. 
At the border crossing *Fernetiči - Fernetti,* heavy fighting took place between the armies of Slovenia and Serbia. 
Distance 10 km from Trieste.

The Austrian Consulate in Trieste gave us a visa, express, free, for a return home, a transit through Austria.


----------



## RyukyuRhymer

lets keep this thread on topic and not dwell too much on history.


----------



## aoz1974

Border point at Puerto Navarino, Chile. Crossing Beagle Channel between Argentina and Chile, Tierra del Fuego.


----------



## Attus

Markowice10 said:


> Similarly, on the border of Czech Republic - Slovakia. Moravian-Silesian Beskids.
> Mountain restaurant: Slovakia (Euro). Tables and benches: Czech Republic (Czech koruna).
> 
> It's a new border. Until 1992, Czechoslovakia was there.


Hihi, it's one of the oldest borders in Europe and a new one as well. It was the border between Hungary and Moravia more than a millenium ago. The territory west of the border changed its rulers and its name once in a while, the eastern side remained Hungary up to 1920. 
Czechoslovakia was created taking both sides of that border in 1920 and in 1945 again. 1939-45 it was split temporarily and in 1993 again, this time being more stable.


----------



## alserrod

Tierra del fuego has the southern border pass indeed


----------



## Markowice10

Attus said:


> Hihi, it's one of the oldest borders in Europe and a new one as well. It was the border between Hungary and Moravia more than a millenium ago. The territory west of the border changed its rulers and its name once in a while, the eastern side remained Hungary up to 1920.
> Czechoslovakia was created taking both sides of that border in 1920 and in 1945 again. 1939-45 it was split temporarily and in 1993 again, this time being more stable.


I had in mind the border after the division of Czechoslovakia in 1992.

And the historical boundary is actually present there. There is even a border stone from 1906 (a stone pillar).

A new border sign Slovakia - Czech Republic in white.


----------



## Junkie

^^
On your passport stamps I see ČSFR so this is from the federal union obviously. And this state was probably one of the shortest lived as only a few years passed....


----------



## Markowice10

Junkie said:


> ^^
> On your passport stamps I see ČSFR so this is from the federal union obviously. And this state was probably one of the shortest lived as only a few years passed....




1990 - 1992, the Czech and Slovak Federative Republic *ČSFR* existed.
The President of the Republic was *Václav Havel*, a writer and former anti-communist dissident.
After the "blue separation", on January 1, 1993, two countries were created: Slovakia (capital - Bratislava) and the Czech Republic (capital - Praha).

A real border was created then. hno:

I am waiting in a traffic jam on the motorway before the CZ - SK border crossing, June 1993.












In the Schengen area, border between Slovakia and the Czech Republic has disappeared again, since 2007.
^^
^^


----------



## parcdesprinces

RyukyuRhymer said:


> lets keep this thread on topic and not dwell too much on history.


What's wrong with historical (and quite funny seen from today) intra-Europe int'l borders? I mean, is it off topic??  (Because you never lived them = too young? :dunno 

Anyway, I can post "old" intra-North-American borders stamps (from the late 90s... from another of my passports)...not to mention my glorious Cyprus stamp (from the early 2000s :hug.

= sweet memories! :drool:


----------



## General Maximus

I remember crossing that border before Schengen. I came out in my British registered van, and the most miserable Slovakian border guard ever had a look at my passport and just handed it back to me with an angry look on his face. I found out that everyone is miserable along that Slovakian border...


----------



## RyukyuRhymer

parcdesprinces said:


> What's wrong with historical (and quite funny seen from today) intra-Europe int'l borders? I mean, is it off topic??  (Because you never lived them = too young? :dunno
> 
> Anyway, I can post "old" intra-North-American borders stamps (from the late 90s... from another of my passports)...not to mention my glorious Cyprus stamp (from the early 2000s :hug.
> 
> = sweet memories! :drool:


no. it means this is a thread on international border crossings. not Yugoslavian wars. This is the last warning about it.


----------



## parcdesprinces

RyukyuRhymer said:


> no. it means this is a thread on international border crossings. not Yugoslavian wars. This is the last warning about it.


OK! Sorry about that! 

But for what it worths and for my defense about my previous posts over here in this thread ..I actually only wrote one, and only one, post regarding ex-Yugoslavia (knowing it was only about a stamp on my personal passport @ the Italian-Yugoslav border in 1989...nothing more = I was far from to talk about their tragic war(s) and so on...of which BTW I know very little...except what our western media told us back then (+ "a little more" of course ).


----------



## Kpc21

There is quite many countries in Europe where trains use the left track. It is so e.g. in Italy.










Spain is actually rather an exception as for this part of Europe


----------



## parcdesprinces

Junkie said:


> It is unique system found in Europe.


And what about the international Latour-de-Carol-station (up in the Pyrénées):



Three different _gauges_..(metric, standard, Spanish).. :drool:


----------



## parcdesprinces

©PdP: 





























:drool:








PS: oh and indeed, *le Train Jaune* is a "voie métrique" as we say in French. (just like the very famous Franco-Swiss "*Mont-Blanc Express*")...

:drool:


----------



## Aokromes

Kpc21 said:


> There is quite many countries in Europe where trains use the left track. It is so e.g. in Italy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spain is actually rather an exception as for this part of Europe


incorrect map as for spain, on spain is more "mixed"

http://historiastren.blogspot.com/2013/02/por-la-derecha-o-por-la-izquierda.html


----------



## Attus

g.spinoza said:


> Not really related but today, for the first time in my life, my ID was checked in Paris _after_ I got out of my plane... maybe they think that people can magically materialize inside a moving plane and people who got in the plane are not necessarily the same that got out...


In Schengen Zone your documents don't need to be checked when you get in. For example I fly several times a year from Cologne to Budapest and my documents have literally never been checked in Cologne. So French authorities may not be sure about who's arriving from Italy without checking the documents. 
(I suppose you arrived to Paris form a Schengen member state).


----------



## g.spinoza

Attus said:


> In Schengen Zone your documents don't need to be checked when you get in. For example I fly several times a year from Cologne to Budapest and my documents have literally never been checked in Cologne. So French authorities may not be sure about who's arriving from Italy without checking the documents.
> (I suppose you arrived to Paris form a Schengen member state).


Yes, I flew from Milan, and my documents were already checked there twice, before the security checks and during boarding. It never happened to me that my documents weren't checked. I mean, tickets are nominative, it's not about immigration but about security: how can they be sure that G. Spinoza bought a ticket and didn't give it to his friend Osama Bin Laden who, unbeknownst to anybody, boards the plane and blows it up?


----------



## cinxxx

g.spinoza said:


> Yes, I flew from Milan, and my documents were already checked there twice, before the security checks and during boarding. It never happened to me that my documents weren't checked. I mean, tickets are nominative, it's not about immigration but about security: how can they be sure that G. Spinoza bought a ticket and didn't give it to his friend Osama Bin Laden who, unbeknownst to anybody, boards the plane and blows it up?


Well they do security checks, so you shouldn't have explosives on you to blow up the plane .
And while you never experienced not being checked, I have, many times. Most times I flew from Germany. I never had to show my ID to anyone.


----------



## Junkie

I found this pic. Seems that Finland is compatible with Russia. Thats quite awkward and considering its different.


----------



## stickedy

Junkie said:


> I found this pic. Seems that Finland is compatible with Russia. Thats quite awkward and considering its different.


Finland was part of Russian Empire between 1809 and 1917. The first railway was built 1862 and most of the other network also under Russian rule...


----------



## bogdymol

g.spinoza said:


> Yes, I flew from Milan, and my documents were already checked there twice, before the security checks and during boarding. It never happened to me that my documents weren't checked. I mean, tickets are nominative, it's not about immigration but about security: how can they be sure that G. Spinoza bought a ticket and didn't give it to his friend Osama Bin Laden who, unbeknownst to anybody, boards the plane and blows it up?


I flew today from Vienna to Frankfurt without any ID check:
- check-in online with boarding pass on my phone
- security control was just to see that I have no dangerous items with me. No ID check
- at boarding gate there was automatic ticket barcode check

If I would't have any ID with me it would have been the same thing.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Ok so basically they hassle us, they impound really dangerous bottles of water and nail clippers, they check and feel our private parts and then they let anyone board a plane.

wow


----------



## bogdymol

g.spinoza said:


> they impound really dangerous bottles of water and nail clippers, they check and feel our private parts and then they let anyone board a plane.


They do that with every passenger on all airports. In front of me today in the morning they also confiscated a nail clipper.

But I was taking about ID checks. I flew within Schengen today and I could have done it also without ID.

Now I have a connecting flight to Edinburgh. On this occasion they will check the ID before boarding, as some nationals need additional UK visa, as UK is not in Schengen Area.


----------



## Kpc21

cinxxx said:


> Well they do security checks, so you shouldn't have explosives on you to blow up the plane .


Not only. You also shouldn't have water to have something to drink on the plane or in the departure hall, so that you will buy overpriced water (or other beverages) from the plane staff or from the duty-free 

About the Russian railway tracks width, in Poland we have one anecdote. I don't know if it works in other languages, it doesn't really work in English as it's based on some pun.

Sorry for some improper words but this is the only way this anecdote may work.

An engineer comes to the tsar and asks: should we build tracks as wide as they have in France or maybe better wider?

Tsar answers – and this is something I cannot translate: Na ch**a szersze? [something like: Why the f*ck wider?]

And they made them "na ch**a szersze". By d*ck length wider.


----------



## Junkie

^^
Wasnt the standard gauge represent a horse riding carriage? I see the standard gauge is standard in USA too.


----------



## Kpc21

I just read some theory on that...

Saying that, in short, it's directly related to horse's butt width 

Through quite many intermediate steps.

The English built their tracks for trains using the same gauge as they did for trams. The tram gauge was related to the distance between grooves for wheels in the roads. This standard dated back to Romans and their military horse carriages. All the military carriages and all the roads were built according to the same standard. All other craftsmen making horse carts had to adjust their products to this standard to make it possible to conveniently use the roads. And what was the Roman military carriages standard width related to? Answer yourselves.


----------



## Junkie

^^
Yes I didnt google it I just remember from books it was related to a horse ridding a carriage. And I have just googled that Soviets or actually the Russian Empire decided to change the track width in order for the German Empire and Nazi Germany not to invade them by transporting military by train.


----------



## Kpc21

It was some difficulty during the war, during the WW1 Germans used the Russian tracks – but had to rebuild them to their gauge.


----------



## alserrod

parcdesprinces said:


> And what about the international Latour-de-Carol-station (up in the Pyrénées):
> 
> 
> 
> Three different _gauges_..(metric, standard, Spanish).. :drool:



In a Spanish thread I remember it was checked number of different gauges in the same station (no near stations but same platforms and so on). It was considered La Tour de Carol and... I reckon till now there's no 3 gauges station in Spain but I know at least one case it will be in the future


About gauges... and one country that I guess it hasn't appeared too much in this thred: Cuba.

First Spanish railway was built... in Cuba just four years after Mter-Lpool one in England. Cuba remained as a Spanish territory for 65 years more since then. First Spanish railway in Europe was 14 years later and quite small.

Could it be first railway in America? (1834)

Anyway... one hint: It has international gauge!!!!






Attus said:


> In Schengen Zone your documents don't need to be checked when you get in. For example I fly several times a year from Cologne to Budapest and my documents have literally never been checked in Cologne. So French authorities may not be sure about who's arriving from Italy without checking the documents.
> (I suppose you arrived to Paris form a Schengen member state).





I remember last summer with a domestic flight arriving to Madrid. In the terminal there was clearly two zones. I guess "hot origins" and "no hot origins". They were separated with a glass-wall. Both gates were almost together for each side. I remember crossing "nothing to declare" and glancing a few officers but in the other side there were too many ones (I came from Canary Islands and goods with different taxes may be declared over a minimal quantity)

Anyway, in Spain right now, passport control for people arriving is usually done just after arriving. This is, you get out the plane and first thing you would see (it could depend on airport you arrive but they are being changed in this way) will be a passport booth. After that point they will bother only on goods.


----------



## cinxxx

Kpc21 said:


> Not only. You also shouldn't have water to have something to drink on the plane or in the departure hall, so that you will buy overpriced water (or other beverages) from the plane staff or from the duty-free


Apparently 
*You can bring a bottle of water onto a plane if it's frozen*


----------



## parcdesprinces

alserrod said:


> till now there's no 3 gauges station in Spain but *I know at least one case it will be in the future*


The gorgeous Canfranc international station maybe? :dunno:


----------



## General Maximus

People confuse political stuff with architecture and infrastructure, which is what Skyscrapercity.com is about.
This thread has a very bad record, and I'd suggest a name change, to make this clear.


----------



## italystf

italystf said:


> wrong thread


I posted in this tread something that I should have posted in another thread, so I edited myself.


----------



## Kpc21

What is political in asking about sources on information about waiting times at broder crossing points?

For me it's totally on topic, even if it's not strictly related to the infrastructure.


----------



## Attus

Guys, Italystf accidentally posted something in this thread what he wanted to post in another one. When he realized it, corrected his post (as he can not delete it himself), and wrote "wrong thread", instead of the original text. Quite a typical way of correcting such an error in this forum.
And now you're quarreling about it...


----------



## g.spinoza

Attus said:


> Guys, Italystf accidentally posted something in this thread what he wanted to post in another one. When he realized it, corrected his post (as he can not delete it himself), and wrote "wrong thread", instead of the original text. Quite a typical way of correcting such an error in this forum.
> And now you're quarreling about it...


Well, if you just write "wrong thread" it seems like you're saying that the previous poster(s) are OT... if you edit your message because you feel it was misposted, you replace it with something different. Maybe "EDIT: wrong thread" would have been better.


----------



## alserrod

tfd543 said:


> Why is it wrong? Its a question I posted a long time ago. I think it belongs to the right thread concerning border crossings.


Hi

Sometimes, anyone (even myself) can have a mistake a write a post in a wrong thread. Let's suppose you write about roads in your country but you got a mistake and posted here. 
You can copy it, paste in correct thread and further, edit your own wrong mistake. Only mods can delete it but you can edit and write ".." or "del" or "wrong thread" or whatever

I reckon that's all, isn't it?


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Well, if you just write "wrong thread" it seems like you're saying that the previous poster(s) are OT... if you edit your message because you feel it was misposted, you replace it with something different. Maybe "EDIT: wrong thread" would have been better.


Yes, sorry


----------



## Markowice10

Vive la France! Nous sommes parisiens.


----------



## tfd543

Kpc21 said:


> What is political in asking about sources on information about waiting times at broder crossing points?
> 
> For me it's totally on topic, even if it's not strictly related to the infrastructure.




I second that.


----------



## Eulanthe

mgk920 said:


> Those images are from 34 years ago.
> 
> It amazes me that so many people who were not alive and aware in the 1980s can't even fathom the thought that there was once such strongly militarized and tightly controlled border cutting through those areas, especially right through the heart, the middle of a massively and densely developed major city.


I know this is splitting hairs, but:










Nicosia in Cyprus is a capital city divided by a no man's land, and that border is very tightly controlled to the point where it would be exceptionally stupid to attempt to cross it, except at approved border crossings.


----------



## General Maximus

Kpc21 said:


> What is political in asking about sources on information about waiting times at broder crossing points?
> 
> For me it's totally on topic, even if it's not strictly related to the infrastructure.


That's great. But it'd be something for a Skybar of this forum. And Jan (our boss) only tolerates Skybars on SSC to keep the main sections of this forum in tact for what it's intended: architecture and infrastructure. 
Most of the bullshit posted in this particular thread does not fall in that category.


----------



## Junkie

Eulanthe said:


> I know this is splitting hairs, but:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nicosia in Cyprus is a capital city divided by a no man's land, and that border is very tightly controlled to the point where it would be exceptionally stupid to attempt to cross it, except at approved border crossings.


Is this Turkish Cyprus side?


----------



## Verso

Yep, I saw plenty of those red signs with a soldier when I was there two years ago. And not just at the border, they're everywhere.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> Yep, I saw plenty of those red signs with a soldier when I was there two years ago. And not just at the border, they're everywhere.


https://petapixel.com/2018/10/24/rare-photos-inside-the-united-nations-buffer-zone-in-cyprus/

People seem to have completely forgotten about Cyprus having the buffer zone controlled by the UN and watched closely by Greek and Turkish soliders, as well as those from the Republic of Cyprus and the TRNC. Yet, in a way, it's actually more guarded than Berlin was, because in West Berlin, the Western Allies never systematically guarded the border like on the Greek Cypriot side of the border.


----------



## Verso

^^ Yes, but at least you can freely cross it at border crossings since 2003. Before that you had to go to Turkey and back to Cyprus, if you wanted to go to the other side. I don't even know, if there were flights or sails between Turkey and Greek Cyprus.


----------



## Junkie

After the murder of a journalist in Northern Ireland I have noticed that the border sign between the UK and R.of Ireland has been sprayed. This sounds very much Balkan.


----------



## General Maximus

It has been sprayed way before that murder. There's always something going on there. How have you "noticed" anyway, you're not even out there...


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ I'm just amused how they lazy and didn't also convert the rest of the sign to "100 / speed limits in kilometres per hour"


----------



## Eulanthe

Today's adventures: Ceuta and Morocco. 

What an intriguing and interesting mess this whole area is. I went as a passenger on the fast ferry, so here's the full report of what the borders look like. Some surprises, too.

*Algeciras-Ceuta*

First things first: in Algeciras maritime terminal, there are only security controls before boarding the ferry for Ceuta. All luggage is scanned, along with jackets/etc. It's a formality, as you can take as many liquids/etc as you want onboard. The terminal is divided into two halves - one departure lounge for Ceuta and another for Tangier-Med. I looked, and I only saw departure customs controls for Tangier-Med, but I guess the passport controls must be located in a different part of the Tangier departure lounge. 

Anyway, the Ceuta departure lounge is divided into two halves as well. The first half is open to everyone waiting, and then you pass through the ticket check, then the security checks, then you can go to the ferry where your tickets are checked for a second time. The first ticket check was quite strange, as they were checking several people on computer, but not everyone. 

The ferry itself was boring, but there's a duty-free shop that only opens at sea. 

On arrival in Ceuta, there are no checks of any kind, you just head out of the ferry and into the departure lounge that doubles up as an arrivals lounge, though 'facilities' are non-existent except a toilet.

==

*Ceuta-Morocco*

This was strange. The Spanish police did absolutely nothing, and the building used for exit controls has been very clearly out of use for a very long time, so you just pass it outside without going inside. There were no exit passport checks, no exit customs checks, nothing. 

You have to walk through a 'cage' of sorts to get to the Moroccan side of the border, where things got even stranger. It seems that locals can come/go as they please, while others have to fill out some sort of arrival card, then queue while the card gets processed and the details typed into a computer. The card then gets kept, and the passport is stamped twice - once with a traditional entry stamp, and the second time with some sort of number. After that, you're free to walk on, where at the exit to the checkpoint area, a guard is randomly checking passports to see that you got a stamp. No sign of any customs controls at all.

*Morocco-Ceuta*

The strangeness continues. The same charade with controls is carried out in the reverse direction, which meant that a huge queue built up behind me. They take about 3-4 minutes to process each person, and there were no signs of any sort of document scanners being in use. Again, no customs controls, you just had to fill in the form. After getting an exit stamp, you then head through the checkpoint where again random checks of passports are made - but like the entry, locals seem to be able to go and leave freely. 

Once you get into the Spanish side, it gets stranger. You get a visual passport check by guards standing at the entrance to the checkpoint area, and then you walk through a 'cage' for a couple of hundred metres, past all sorts of unused infrastructure. It looks like much of the infrastructure used for passport checks was abandoned and left to rust. Anyway, after that, you then enter a little building where signs (only in Spanish!) inform you that you need to queue up to get a stamp if you aren't European. It wasn't obvious at all, and you could just keep walking and not even notice the window where you had to get a stamp. 

After that, you leave one building, walk some more, then enter a second building for customs controls. There was a scanner there and some guy in a room watching different monitors, but no controls were made and there was no green/red lane. 

*Ceuta-Algeciras*

The madness doesn't end! In Ceuta maritime terminal, you have to pass through border controls. The infrastructure is completely lacking, so while there's two lines - one for EU, one for "all passports", in reality, everyone goes through the 'all passports' line for a visual check. The occasional document is scanned, but mostly not. They had two police officers checking, but only one computer, while the 'EU' side of the border crossing didn't have any computers in the booth.

After that, there's a security control, same as on departure from Algeciras, while yet again - plenty of unused infrastructure. Probably the most intriguing thing is that the ferry terminal doesn't have a duty free shop after passport control, and it seemed that even though Ceuta is outside the EU fiscal territory, they don't really take advantage of that fact. 

On return to Algeciras, you have to pass through customs controls, which are a complete charade. Everyone has to scan their luggage/jackets/bags again, but no attempts were made to even visually check people. The big difference was here - red/green lanes exist, though there was no-one in the red lane to even talk to, and the scanning was in the green lane. 

More tomorrow...


----------



## nenea_hartia

Some pictures of the former Vennbahn, now Vennbahnweg, perhaps the most crazy European border. A disused railway line, currently transformed into a nice cycling route, Vennbahnweg is a Belgian territory that stretches for many kilometers inside Germany and therefore creates 5 German exclaves and one Belgian counter-enclave (according to Wikipedia). My pictures are taken near the former Monschau railway station, around here.

OK, the border is here, where German asphalt leaves room for Belgian gravel :lol:










I wasn't sure if the lines drawn on Google Maps were accurate until I saw this touristic map so yes, the house pictured above is actually built on Belgian soil. For a better understanding I encircled with red the precise spot:










Useful signage for bicyclists:










An old building was kept and some installations were added to mark the place where the old railway station used to function:


----------



## nenea_hartia

Straight ahead is Belgium. On the left and right, just beyond those trees lies Germany:


----------



## nenea_hartia

Just few meters beyond that small fence on the right lies Germany:










At first I thought that the idiot using the cycling path to park his car was trespassing the holy Walloon soil  but then I noticed that his Renault Scenic had Belgian plates so the guy was in his own right to be there. :lol:










Here a German road crosses into Belgian territory :nono:










And an old picture of the Monschau/Montjoie railway station. I wonder if those white concrete markers used to mark the border:


----------



## alserrod

When was railway traffic down?


----------



## Kpc21

How heavily was this border guarded before Schengen?

If someone crossed the tracks out of the level crossings, was he likely to be fined for illegally crossing the border?


----------



## Attus

alserrod said:


> When was railway traffic down?


1989. 
This railway line was important for Belgium between both world wars but lost its importance from the 50's. Some completely in "normal" Belgian terrority running sections were in use up to 2001, as far as I know, but this section running through Germany was closed in 1989.


----------



## alserrod

I reckon anyone getting down from train could illegally cross a border. How did they deal in both countries?


----------



## Attus

alserrod said:


> I reckon anyone getting down from train could illegally cross a border. How did they deal in both countries?


They did not care. There have never been any border checks along the railroad.


----------



## Junkie

^^
There are many examples in countries which have tough borders, the railroad just passing the border and the control is usually done between boarding or inside the train. 

I think example is train border Lithuania-Belarus!


----------



## tfd543

I passed the Spain-Gibraltar border yesterday by foot. Only visual check and only customs control for Spain-->Gibraltar direction.


----------



## Verso

Did you see Eulanthe anywhere? :lol:


----------



## bogdymol

The new bypass road of the small village of Nagylak (Hungary) will pass through one old border control booth:










More pictures in the Hungarian roads thread.


----------



## Kpc21

Eulanthe said:


> Let's see if I can arouse any attention by crossing with my son, who has a Polish ID card while I have a British passport...oh, and my wife will be 250km away


What about the family names?

A different family name of an underage family member may sometimes cause problems at an airport... At a land crossing probably too.


----------



## piotr71

*[B][NL] Arendonk/De Hoek, N139/N284*






It seems to be a sort of car cemetery right on the border.








https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40705225133_c5ed72cd7c_c.jpg[/img


----------



## keokiracer

piotr71 said:


> It seems to be a sort of car cemetery right on the border.


It seems that they have been there since about 2012, since thats when the apk (MOT) of the cars expired.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> Did you see Eulanthe anywhere? :lol:


So, I went today 

Spain->Gibraltar in the morning - usual lack of interest by the Spanish police and customs on exit, Gibraltar took a look in the back of the car with a smile after I handed over my passport and my son's ID card. 

Gibraltar->Spain on foot - Gibraltar was doing exit controls (!) with the police stopping people and cars. They only did it for about 10 minutes before going away, but anyway, the policeman on the border smiled and said bye to us - he only pretended to check my son's ID card to amuse him. The Spanish police were completely disinterested and too busy arguing with each other about something to even notice people crossing. Again, the "side gate" in the pedestrian building was open, with the automatic gates being ignored and the main passport control booths unmanned. There was a guy manning the x-ray scanner in the customs building, but he was clearly only looking at Spanish people. 

Spain-Gibraltar on foot one minute later - a smile and a wave from the Spanish guy on duty on the 'side gate', but otherwise, the situation was identical to the entry to Spain. The Gibraltarian policeman likewise smiled and 'checked' my son's ID card. However, what was new was the presence of a customs dog - the dog was checking everyone, and several people were waiting in the customs area for further clearance. 

Gibraltar-Spain by car 5 minutes later - total lack of interest from Gibraltar on leaving, total lack of interest by Spain on entering. It's quite surprising just how little Spain cares about this border at times, even though there are direct ferry links to Tangier and flights elsewhere too. 

That's not all...

Algeciras Port - I crossed the Customs line four times, twice at the North gate and twice at the South gate. No-one is interested in car traffic here, but they are checking every single lorry and van.


----------



## tfd543

Did the dog have a uniform? You know, a clearly marked uniform.


----------



## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> Did the dog have a uniform? You know, a clearly marked uniform.


Actually, I didn't notice - I don't think it did, but I can't be certain.


----------



## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> So, I went today
> 
> Spain->Gibraltar in the morning - usual lack of interest by the Spanish police and customs on exit, Gibraltar took a look in the back of the car with a smile after I handed over my passport and my son's ID card.
> 
> Gibraltar->Spain on foot - Gibraltar was doing exit controls (!) with the police stopping people and cars. They only did it for about 10 minutes before going away, but anyway, the policeman on the border smiled and said bye to us - he only pretended to check my son's ID card to amuse him. The Spanish police were completely disinterested and too busy arguing with each other about something to even notice people crossing. Again, the "side gate" in the pedestrian building was open, with the automatic gates being ignored and the main passport control booths unmanned. There was a guy manning the x-ray scanner in the customs building, but he was clearly only looking at Spanish people.
> 
> Spain-Gibraltar on foot one minute later - a smile and a wave from the Spanish guy on duty on the 'side gate', but otherwise, the situation was identical to the entry to Spain. The Gibraltarian policeman likewise smiled and 'checked' my son's ID card. However, what was new was the presence of a customs dog - the dog was checking everyone, and several people were waiting in the customs area for further clearance.
> 
> Gibraltar-Spain by car 5 minutes later - total lack of interest from Gibraltar on leaving, total lack of interest by Spain on entering. It's quite surprising just how little Spain cares about this border at times, even though there are direct ferry links to Tangier and flights elsewhere too.
> 
> That's not all...
> 
> Algeciras Port - I crossed the Customs line four times, twice at the North gate and twice at the South gate. No-one is interested in car traffic here, but they are checking every single lorry and van.


Spain exit... officers are only worried if you carry more than 10K euro in cash (you can... but you may declare before exit). It doesn't matter destination but they are worried. After that, there's an absolutely lack of interest about passports for exit. They know which are "hot borders" and Gibraltar exit isn't

Spain entry... main problem is smuggling with drugs or tobacco. On foot it is hard to have enough tobacco to worth a walk and if you were back on Gibraltar, officers "smell" who can give problems.

One person in airports told me that in some "hot flights" coming from America they have a hard work. They have airports classified by problems (and Bogota is the American airport number one for hot flights). As far as they know the name of passengers, they have some hours to make checks. They do not stop even if night. 
Let's suppose one person who made a return trip within three days, ticket was payed with a third person credit card and it was half of his declared incomes...

Surely he would be stopped in "nothing to declare". No doubts.


In the other hand, I remember once having a fast supper before taking a night flight in the small airport in my city. No lack... but soft safety controls for boarding. One officer told me later than as far as there are no many flights, it is enough with some officers among all passengers in the terminal to see if there's no problem with them. They glance, give some instructions to officers in safety control and they would lead.


In addition, when teenager I made a flight to Dublin and I do not remember any control in Ireland, even if getting into or out of the country. There were officers but no passport control. In Spain police just checked each passenger (90% teenagers) had his passport and no control when coming back.

Bonus... It was a time with one only company per country yet but for charter flights you could rent anyone. First flight was with AirEuropa, the nowadays second Spanish company. Return fligh was... with Ryanair. I can say I take off in my homecity with Ryanair 13 years before they operated in this airport with regular flights


----------



## Markowice10

Macron suggests shrinking Schengen zone because EU migration policies 'do not work'.
Interesting, interesting. Will the multi-kilometer traffic jam come back?


----------



## Junkie

^^
What does it mean? Is it mean expulsion of former communist countries such as Slovakia, Hungary, Poland ?


----------



## Junkie

^^
Border Kosovo-Serbia is not valid and it is not international border. It is just autonomous border and Kosovo is neither recognized by UN and its included as a territory in Serbian constitution. So I would not refer that there is a real border actually and Kosovo is disputed territory.

Very similar examples are Abkhazia and Ossetia.
Both have proclaimed independence supported by some powers but they are never internationally recognized and Georgia included them as domestic territories.


----------



## Eulanthe

italystf said:


> Why doesn't Google Maps let crossing the Serbo-Kosovan border? Is it somehow restricted to international travellers?


No, there are no restrictions. From both Kosovan and Serbian points of view, you can travel as long as your documentation is in order.

Ainazi border crossing, Latvia - no idea when, but probably between 2004-2007 as the EU signs are in place at the border crossing. This is looking south into Latvia from Estonia - the Baltic States from 1993 (I think...) operated a 'one stop control' so that border controls were carried out on the territory of the state that travellers were entering.










This is also Ainazi, and it shows how traffic heading into Latvia was controlled, while traffic heading towards Estonia bypassed the checkpoint.

https://www.logistikauudised.ee/uud...logistika-uudised-online-meedias-24-oktoobril

The old Vana-Ikla (Ikla town) EST-LV crossing. As far as I know, this crossing was closed for road traffic in 1990. Proposals were made to open it to road traffic before Estonia and Latvia joined Schengen, but there was a problem with Estonian law requiring a certain size of road before a border crossing could be placed there. It was only opened again in 2007 with Schengen membership.










Another picture here - https://www.flickr.com/photos/rainrannu/129429056

On this page, there's a picture of the Koidula (EST/RU) checkpoint in 1994 - https://www.setomaa.ee/kogukond/exhibition-setomaa-on-photos-1918z2018 - I think this is only the entry to the checkpoint area though.


----------



## Kpc21

Junkie said:


> ^^
> Border Kosovo-Serbia is not valid and it is not international border.
> 
> [...]


Why does this forum have no DISLIKE button?

I am not talking about Junkie's opinion on this topic, everyone may have one's own – but about expressing it here whenever anyone mentions Kosovo, even if it's totally not related to the topic and if it doesn't answer the question in any way.


----------



## Junkie

^^
Those who have "stamps from Kosovo" cannot exit Kosovo and directly enter Serbia because there is nothing to be entered, as Serbia consider part of her territory and the laws are clear, you cannot with stamp from self declared country.


----------



## Kpc21

And this is a good post because it answers to the question 

Thank you.

By the way, I don't think you can deny that the border physically exists there. Even if you considered it illegal, the Serbia's law considers it illegal, many UN member countries consider it illegal – and I understand you may not accept its existence. It is anyway there.

BTW, a similar case is in Moldova. And there, if you enter Transnistria (a physically "independent" entity, although probably under indirect Russian control, not recognized by nearly any UN member, except for Russia and a few others having interest in that) from Ukraine, it's not a problem to enter Moldova (I mean the area controlled by the Moldovan government) from there. Even though you don't get a Moldovan stamp at the Ukrainian border.


----------



## alserrod

I have downloaded a Croatian traffic app and it gives a lot of information.

Regarding customs, they point if only EU+ (Schengen and so on) passports are allowed or any passport. This is, in main customs they allow any passport but it seems, smaller ones wouldn't have enough information to match visas and that stuff. Therefore, only (according to that app) EU+ passports are allowed. Should you have another one, you may go to nearest allowed one.

Quite weird but... among those "major" customs, they include this one for "all passports"

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.509...230.01901&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## garethni

Eulanthe said:


> It would be interesting to know if there's also passport controls there, or if they're carried out on the bus.


I've only crossed at that one once, and in the middle of the night, but both sides did passport and customs controls off the bus. This was going towards Russia.


----------



## VanderLoo

Junkie has fallen on his head.


----------



## Junkie

Kpc21 said:


> And this is a good post because it answers to the question
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> By the way, I don't think you can deny that the border physically exists there. Even if you considered it illegal, the Serbia's law considers it illegal, many UN member countries consider it illegal – and I understand you may not accept its existence. It is anyway there.
> 
> BTW, a similar case is in Moldova. And there, if you enter Transnistria (a physically "independent" entity, although probably under indirect Russian control, not recognized by nearly any UN member, except for Russia and a few others having interest in that) from Ukraine, it's not a problem to enter Moldova (I mean the area controlled by the Moldovan government) from there. Even though you don't get a Moldovan stamp at the Ukrainian border.


Yes Kosovo is exact situation although some EU members plus USA recognize their "independence". But the problem according to me is that it is self declared it is not with in deal from the father - Serbia. There are separations that are legal before the actual separation and with deal example is South Sudan independence from Sudan which was accepted by Sudan and the South became even UN member.

If the host from which you are declaring separation is not declaring the agreement before you separate it cannot be recognized. You give us good example by Transnistra.


----------



## Verso

alserrod said:


> Quite weird but... among those "major" customs, they include this one for "all passports"
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/@45.509...230.01901&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656


:lol: I think they opened this one some 15 years ago, because it's the shortest road between Croatia and Italy. But it would be enough for Croatians and Slovenians (EU).



VanderLoo said:


> Junkie has fallen on his head.


Naah, he's always been there.


----------



## VanderLoo

Junkie said:


> Yes Kosovo is exact situation although some EU members plus USA recognize their "independence". But the problem according to me is that it is self declared it is not with in deal from the father - Serbia. There are separations that are legal before the actual separation and with deal example is South Sudan independence from Sudan which was accepted by Sudan and the South became even UN member.
> 
> If the host from which you are declaring separation is not declaring the agreement before you separate it cannot be recognized. You give us good example by Transnistra.


To use Transnistria as an example for Kosovo is very naive. I will kindly refer you to do research before you tell people your big illusions.


----------



## alserrod

Verso said:


> I think they opened this one some 15 years ago, because it's the shortest road between Croatia and Italy. But it would be enough for Croatians and Slovenians (EU).
> 
> Naah, he's always been there.


It is...shortest but not a wide road tough.

I checked app and weird...but they accept all passports


----------



## Verso

Yes, it's international, but open only 6h–22h (or 6–24 in summer).


----------



## Junkie

VanderLoo said:


> To use Transnistria as an example for Kosovo is very naive. I will kindly refer you to do research before you tell people your big illusions.


Tell me what is your refer is it the war in Kosovo in 1999 ?


----------



## stickedy

Junkie said:


> If the host from which you are declaring separation is not declaring the agreement before you separate it cannot be recognized. You give us good example by Transnistra.


That's not true! It's all about politics: If none of the 5 permanent members United Nations Security Council is against membership and a majority of the other states is for the membership, the new state gets UN membership regardless what the "host" country wants or not...

In Kosovo case, Russia and China are blocking Kosovo's membership for Serbia. If Serbia would not be backed by these two permanent members of UN Security Council, Kosovo would have been already UN member since a majority of UN states recognizes its independence. The same is other way with e.g. Palestine (membership blocked by USA).

Beside of that, being UN member is not mandatory for being independent and fully recognized by other states! For example, Switzerland just became UN member in 2002, but of course it was fully recognized before...


----------



## MichiH

DEL


----------



## italystf

Junkie said:


> ^^
> Those who have "stamps from Kosovo" cannot exit Kosovo and directly enter Serbia because there is nothing to be entered, as Serbia consider part of her territory and the laws are clear, you cannot with stamp from self declared country.


Doesn't Kosovo issue stamps in a separate sheet like Israel (because some Arab countries reject passports with Israeli stamps)?


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> :lol: I think they opened this one some 15 years ago, because it's the shortest road between Croatia and Italy. But it would be enough for Croatians and Slovenians (EU).


I've never used it, but it seems a valid alternative to Rupa/Pasjak when there are long lines on summer weekends.


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> but it seems, smaller ones wouldn't have enough information to match visas and that stuff.


From what I understand, all border crossings are equipped with what they need to control the borders, but that the list of local border crossings is agreed at a governmental level with Slovenia. The local ones are definitely equipped to check people properly, because when I was in Razkrizje and they decided to check my car at the border to make sure that it wasn't stolen, they were able to do all the checks without phoning anyone. 

Local border crossings became EU crossings in 2013 because EU rules wouldn't allow them to keep them 'locals only' crossings as it discriminated against other EU citizens. 

I think it's rather about controlling traffic more than anything else. Opening bigger crossings would encourage traffic to take those roads, so it's better to leave them as small crossings that can only handle a small amount of traffic. 

Interestingly and oddly, there are some tiny railway crossings that are also full international border crossings. 

I found another border oddity too  here - it's near Bregana, and while this restaurant is completely on the Croatian side of the border, if you leave through the back door, you enter Slovenia. OSM here claims that the border runs through the restaurant and across the Croatian road before crossing back, but I don't think it's accurate.


----------



## alserrod

I do not know reason. You can even glance webcam on border with the app. I do not know why they point only EU+ passports only but some out of them are really far away from a main one


----------



## italystf

Eulanthe said:


> I found another border oddity too  here - it's near Bregana, and while this restaurant is completely on the Croatian side of the border, if you leave through the back door, you enter Slovenia. OSM here claims that the border runs through the restaurant and across the Croatian road before crossing back, but I don't think it's accurate.


The restaurant is really split in two by the border. It was already discussed here at least once.


----------



## Verso

^^ It's not the same restaurant. That one is here.



Eulanthe said:


> Local border crossings became EU crossings in 2013 because EU rules wouldn't allow them to keep them 'locals only' crossings as it discriminated against other EU citizens.


The EU is obsessed with discrimination, it sees it everywhere. There used to be border crossings where only locals were allowed to cross and no one from the rest of the country felt discriminated because of it. It's logical that locals need more border crossings than someone living 100 km away from the border.



Eulanthe said:


> Interestingly and oddly, there are some tiny railway crossings that are also full international border crossings.


To attract as many passengers as possible, I guess. :dunno: Those trains are virtually empty.


----------



## Junkie

Some historical photos

Toilets on the former DDR border 










Cars from DDR waiting to enter ČSSR (Communist Czechoslovakian Republic)


----------



## Kpc21

So many Trabants


----------



## Verso

Try to spot a non-Trabant.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Junkie said:


> Some historical photos
> 
> Toilets on the former DDR border


"Damen"? Wouldn't "Frauen" be less bourgeois? :lol:


----------



## Kanadzie

Verso said:


> Try to spot a non-Trabant.


There is a Dacia and a highly bourgeois Mercedes T124 hiding in here


----------



## General Maximus

Penn's Woods said:


> "Damen"? Wouldn't "Frauen" be less bourgeois? :lol:


The way they were thinking these days, I think "bitch" is deemed more appropriate...


----------



## Eulanthe

I'm quite surprised, but I just read that the ban on non-Eurasian Union citizens crossing the border between Belarus and Russia still exists. I thought the problem had been dealt with, but I've just read a news article that talks about Russia considering the idea of opening up an international border crossing on the main Moscow-Minsk highway. 

This whole thing is so exceptionally idiotic. Forcing people to travel via Ukraine or Latvia just to be able to reach Moscow from places like Poland is just so ridiculous.

Some interesting ruins of a former RUS-BY border crossing, it seems.


----------



## Verso

^^ Wait, what? :crazy:


----------



## kokomo

What's the reason behind that decision not to allow such crossing? :?:


----------



## Suburbanist

kokomo said:


> What's the reason behind that decision not to allow such crossing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :


 when two authoritarian states with paranoid regimes decide to implement their laughable version of Schengen...


----------



## Eulanthe

Oh wow, I thought this was common knowledge!

So, to cut a long story short, two years ago (article here, Russia imposed a new rule that meant that you can only enter Russia (as a non Union Staten citizen - though I think this also includes the other members of the Eurasian Union now) through an international border crossing. As Belarus and Russia have their own mini-Schengen within the Union State, there are no international border crossings on the BY/RUS border. 

This is the article I was reading about it:

https://belsat.eu/en/news/smolensk-entry-point-may-be-set-up-at-belarus-russia-border/

So, what the Russians are proposing is to open up a border crossing on the existing E30 BY/RUS border so that non Union State citizens can legally enter Russia. The stupidity is even worse when you consider that the Union State doesn't have a single visa regime, despite not having internal borders. I believe though, that these days, flights between Minsk and Russia are now international flights (previously, they were treated as domestic flights). 

There's also now a border zone on the Belarusian border (previously, no such border zone existed, unlike on other borders), and so the whole situation is absolutely stupid. If I want to go to Moscow from Poznań, I need to avoid the BY/RUS border crossings, and instead enter Russia through Ukraine or Latvia. Most truck traffic is apparently going through Latvia as it's only one border crossing to deal with as opposed to having to go BY-UA-RUS, but it's still wasting several hours more on the journey.



Suburbanist said:


> when two authoritarian states with paranoid regimes decide to implement their laughable version of Schengen...


It's just stupid. There's no sense in either of them keeping the Union State version of Schengen in this scenario. 

It's widely believed to be a way of punishing Belarus for their visa free regime that they established, but wouldn't it be better to just bring back border controls?


----------



## Llapi 1

*Integrated Border Management between Republic of Kosovo and Republic of N.Macedonia at the border crossing point in Bellanoc:*


----------



## Kanadzie

Eulanthe said:


> This whole thing is so exceptionally idiotic. Forcing people to travel via Ukraine or Latvia just to be able to reach Moscow from places like Poland is just so ridiculous.


It isn't so much forcing people to travel via Ukraine (oh and that sounds like a fun border to cross into RU) or Latvia... they just aren't coming at all. Why a Pole wants to drive to Moskow?:nuts:


----------



## Eulanthe

Kanadzie said:


> It isn't so much forcing people to travel via Ukraine (oh and that sounds like a fun border to cross into RU) or Latvia... they just aren't coming at all. Why a Pole wants to drive to Moskow?:nuts:


Well, truck transport between Russia and Poland is still quite intensive. Not many people are driving there by car, but it's also costing Belarus quite a lot in lost truck tolls. 

UA/RU crossings are quite calm - for instance, there are pictures here of the administrative border between Ukraine and Crimea. Of course, it's not a place to mess around, and both sides are heavily guarded, but if you have permission from the UA authorities, it's nothing that unusual. 

I think when it comes to Crimea and other border crossings away from the warzone in Eastern Ukraine, there's at least some agreement not to provoke conflict in those areas.


----------



## Llapi 1

*Integrated Border Management between Republic of Kosovo and Republic of serbia at the border crossing point in Merdare:*



















*Integrated Border Management between Republic of Kosovo and Republic of serbia at the border crossing point in Mutivodë:*




























*IBM between Republic of Kosovo and Republic of Albania at the border crosing point in Vërmicë:*










*Integrated Border Management between Republic of Kosovo and Republic of N.Macedonia at the border crossing point in Bellanoc:*


----------



## Penn's Woods

Eulanthe said:


> I'm quite surprised, but I just read that the ban on non-Eurasian Union citizens crossing the border between Belarus and Russia still exists. I thought the problem had been dealt with, but I've just read a news article that talks about Russia considering the idea of opening up an international border crossing on the main Moscow-Minsk highway.
> 
> This whole thing is so exceptionally idiotic. Forcing people to travel via Ukraine or Latvia just to be able to reach Moscow from places like Poland is just so ridiculous.
> 
> Some interesting ruins of a former RUS-BY border crossing, it seems.


The entire length of that border?!


----------



## bogdymol

*Kosovo debate*

I just deleted a lot of Kovoso-debate posts. Again.

Whoever posts about Kosovo* in this thread stating his opinion on the topic will get an infraction from me. I don't care if you think Kosovo is a country or not, this is not the place to debate.

* Border crossing pictures + interesting facts about it allowed. Anything else no.


----------



## eucitizen

Eulanthe said:


> Oh wow, I thought this was common knowledge!
> 
> So, to cut a long story short, two years ago (article here, Russia imposed a new rule that meant that you can only enter Russia (as a non Union Staten citizen - though I think this also includes the other members of the Eurasian Union now) through an international border crossing. As Belarus and Russia have their own mini-Schengen within the Union State, there are no international border crossings on the BY/RUS border.
> 
> This is the article I was reading about it:
> 
> https://belsat.eu/en/news/smolensk-entry-point-may-be-set-up-at-belarus-russia-border/
> 
> So, what the Russians are proposing is to open up a border crossing on the existing E30 BY/RUS border so that non Union State citizens can legally enter Russia. The stupidity is even worse when you consider that the Union State doesn't have a single visa regime, despite not having internal borders. I believe though, that these days, flights between Minsk and Russia are now international flights (previously, they were treated as domestic flights).
> 
> There's also now a border zone on the Belarusian border (previously, no such border zone existed, unlike on other borders), and so the whole situation is absolutely stupid. If I want to go to Moscow from Poznań, I need to avoid the BY/RUS border crossings, and instead enter Russia through Ukraine or Latvia. Most truck traffic is apparently going through Latvia as it's only one border crossing to deal with as opposed to having to go BY-UA-RUS, but it's still wasting several hours more on the journey.
> 
> 
> 
> It's just stupid. There's no sense in either of them keeping the Union State version of Schengen in this scenario.
> 
> It's widely believed to be a way of punishing Belarus for their visa free regime that they established, but wouldn't it be better to just bring back border controls?


I follow this story for a long time as I go every year to Russia by ccar lately. 
Only citizens of the State Union can cross the borders between BY and RUS. Even citizens of the other Euroasian union states can´t cross it. The only available border is the one called 3 sisters, located here: 
https://www.google.com/maps/place/F...7ce426d295ce87a4!8m2!3d52.111961!4d31.7816877

Russia is pushing since 2 years for the recognition of the visas, while Belarus is renitent to do as they are afraid they would lose money, as the BY visa is more expensive than the russian one, plus they don´t have so many embassies around the world as Russia does.
This is the last article I found about this issue:
https://eng.belta.by/society/view/d...a-recognition-agreement-revealed-120206-2019/
I know that the agreement was already approved by Russia.
Then: https://eng.belta.by/society/view/b...ussia-to-come-into-force-in-2019-119945-2019/

I think Belarus wants to sign firstly the visa facilitaiton with the EU, as it would align the visa issuing policy with Russia, which has this agreement since years: https://eng.belta.by/politics/view/...ilitation-readmission-agreements-121286-2019/

In the meantime during the 2d European games, hold in Belarus, there will be possible to enter Russia and Belarus just only with the tickets for the event, without visas. 
This was already possible last year during the Football world championship, where with the special Fan ID card you could enter BY and Russia without visa. I did that last year and there were no problems.

About the trucks´ transit, AFAIK it is still possible to cross the border between BY-RUS.


----------



## Eulanthe

Palance said:


> Interesting. I never knew that there were joint crossings between Yugoslavia and its neighbours. I cannot remember any of them, only the checks at both sides of the border (I have never been in Nova Gorica).


I haven't seen any other examples, so it might have been the only one. 

Nova Gorica is a strange place. For instance, the railway station is well known, yet there's no cross-border passenger railway service. It would make sense for Italian trains to end their journey there, especially the night trains, but no, nothing. 

https://youtu.be/Oh6bJgzve0Q - there's an interesting video here showing the demarcation and construction of the Italian-Yugoslav border in 1947. 



tfd543 said:


> Eulanthe, why did they deploy border personel at borders that did not harmonize with their ethnicity ? What was the point of that?


I'm also wondering why they bothered doing that if the border police/customs were locals. It was probably related to the army way of doing things, which was always mixing people between republics and provinces as it was (supposed to be) a genuinely Yugoslav institution.


----------



## Gyorgy

Eulanthe said:


> I haven't seen any other examples, so it might have been the only one.
> 
> Nova Gorica is a strange place. For instance, the railway station is well known, yet there's no cross-border passenger railway service. It would make sense for Italian trains to end their journey there, especially the night trains, but no, nothing.


It wouldn't as railway link between Gorica and Nova Gorica is not electified. But Slovenian diesel trains ending in Gorica, that's not uncommon debate in the local media.


----------



## Theijs

Alex_ZR said:


> Verso, is Serbo-Croatian taught in Slovenian schools today?
> Of course not. :nuts:


To me this is a weird answer. Often a lot of trade is taking place with neighboring countries. So in high school, students should get the possibility to learn languages.
Or do you speak and write English as a Slovenian doing business with Croatians?


----------



## Kpc21

Like in Finland where they obligatorily learn Swedish. Yes, Swedish is also an official language in Finland (because of a minority living there which speaks Swedish) – but it seems to me to be more important from the perspective of doing businesses with Sweden and other Scandinavian countries.

But Finnish and Swedish are totally different languages. If they were quite similar, with a high level of mutual intelligibility (similarly as between Slovenian and Serbo-Croatian), then I guess no-one would bother.


----------



## Eulanthe

A couple of pictures from the closed SLO-HR border crossing at Bozakovo (near Metlika). 

First picture is of a postcard that was distributed to criticise the situation:










Second picture is taken from the opposite side.










And this picture is taken next to the barbed wire.










Officially, the border is closed due to the damaged bridge.

The same story is with the nearby crossing at Brezovica, which is also closed for some strange reason.


----------



## kreden

Theijs said:


> To me this is a weird answer. Often a lot of trade is taking place with neighboring countries. So in high school, students should get the possibility to learn languages.
> Or do you speak and write English as a Slovenian doing business with Croatians?


People under 35 who don’t speak the language will just muddle through using simplified Slovenian interspersed with some Croatian words. It works, especially since you’ll get to deal mostly with people from the northern areas, who are more used to the Slovenian language than someone further south or east.

Learning Croatian in school is a controversial topic for obvious historical reasons.


----------



## Junkie

Kpc21 said:


> (similarly as between Slovenian and Serbo-Croatian), then I guess no-one would bother.


BCS and Slovenian are really not that mutual if you ask me. Only some dialects of Croatian like Kajkavian are close to Slovenian but standard Bosnian-Serbian-Croatian is not, because it is based on totally different dialect that is Štokavian.

What you want to say is that there is a dialect continuum. It means some dialects overlap but the standard is not mutual.


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> https://youtu.be/Oh6bJgzve0Q - there's an interesting video here showing the demarcation and construction of the Italian-Yugoslav border in 1947.


I wonder who was so stupid to write "Začasna meja Italijo–Jugoslavijo". :nuts:



Gyorgy said:


> It wouldn't as railway link between Gorica and Nova Gorica is not electified. But Slovenian diesel trains ending in Gorica, that's not uncommon debate in the local media.


Gorizia–Jesenice would make sense.



Theijs said:


> To me this is a weird answer. Often a lot of trade is taking place with neighboring countries. So in high school, students should get the possibility to learn languages.
> Or do you speak and write English as a Slovenian doing business with Croatians?


We learn English and German/Italian, it's enough.



kreden said:


> Learning Croatian in school is a controversial topic for obvious historical reasons.


Rather for obvious _contemporary_ reasons.


----------



## Junkie

:lol: 
But it is because of diaspora I guess. There are really way too many Balkan people in Ljubljana.


----------



## Verso

CrazySerb said:


> Nobody there speaks English


:lol:









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Knowledge_of_English_EU_map.svg


----------



## Penn's Woods

Verso said:


> ...We learn English and German/Italian, it's enough.
> 
> 
> 
> Rather for obvious _contemporary_ reasons.




It continues to amaze me - and yes, this is a generalization - how uninterested so many Europeans are in their neighbors' languages. To me, it's not at all obvious that the answer to "do you learn your neighboring country's language" is "of course not." It wouldn't surprise me to see it at least offered as an option. And what happened to French?



My suburban New Jersey public high school in the early 80s offered French, Spanish, German, Italian and Latin. (You had to take one. I took French, German and Latin.) And one of the French teachers was born in pre-revolutionary Saint Petersburg and taught Russian after school to students who were interested. Sort of informally - no grades, and we didn't get much more than the alphabet - but still.... And we're the ones who are usually criticized for not knowing other languages.


----------



## Verso

You can learn Croatian in Slovenia, but not at school. Three foreign languages would be too many, and if you could choose it instead of German, most students would probably do that since it's much easier for us – but then they wouldn't understand German. And France is 600 km away from Slovenia by road, so no one cares about French except diplomats.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> I wonder who was so stupid to write "Začasna meja Italijo–Jugoslavijo". :nuts:


Another one:










It seems to have been used all along the border. Wasn't the border only finalised in 197...something with that treaty? 

An interesting article here: https://www.primorske.si/primorska/...ice/trg-evrope-od-bodece-zice-do-pohoda-metel - it seems that in the first years, the train station in Nova Gorica had its windows and doors were boarded up so people from Italy couldn't see what was going on there. 



CrazySerb said:


> Ljutomer


I stayed in Razkrizje (near Ljutomer) for a couple of weeks last summer, and much to my surprise - the staff in both local pubs both spoke English. One of them could speak very well, the other was so-so, but they both didn't have any problem with using it. They're definitely much better at English than in Varazdin.

And the local police there could speak English fine when they stopped me for spending way too much time at isolated unguarded border crossings


----------



## Eulanthe

Yes! I finally found what I've been trying to find for a long, long time: how Gruskovje looked after independence. The Slovenes will correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that this was how it looked until the modern Gruskovje crossing was built. 

http://www.zvvs.si/publikacije/CARI...NE CARINE_OSAMOSVAJANE 1991_Stevilka_08_1.pdf - page 7. There are also other interesting pictures, but this is the holy grail for me  There's also pictures of other border crossings, including Obrežje in the first days of independence. 

It seems to have been here?


----------



## Palance

Great document! Especially the pictures of the Obrežje crossing in 1991. It is on the former M1, highway of brotherhood and unitiy. I have always remembered the INA gasstation, followed by a Petrol gas station hardly 500 metres away, so in the Yugoslav times we knew where the Slovene-Croatian border ran approximately.

I have crossed here in 1992 from HR to SLO, and that was the first time I faced the reality of the fall of Yugoslavia. The Slovene side was already well built and equipped, while the Croatian side (Bregana) was nothing more then a container/police block on the road. As far as I remember at the spot where the INA gas station was.


----------



## alserrod

Are there movements along those borders just because fuel prices?


----------



## aubergine72

Junkie said:


> BCS and Slovenian are really not that mutual if you ask me. Only some dialects of Croatian like Kajkavian are close to Slovenian but standard Bosnian-Serbian-Croatian is not, because it is based on totally different dialect that is Štokavian.
> 
> What you want to say is that there is a dialect continuum. It means some dialects overlap but the standard is not mutual.


Kajkavian (the native dialect of Zagreb and northern Croatia) isn't a dialect of Serbo-Croatian. It is in fact not mutually intelligible (although hard to quantify since people also speak Croatian). It's actually much closer to Slovenian.

Serbo-Croatian or Stokavian dialect comes from somewhere in today's Bosnia and then expanded geographically due to political reasons. The original native language of all of eastern and southern Serbia is something much more similar to Bulgarian.



CrazySerb said:


> Serbian air force arrived in Bulgaria yesterday for some weapons practice, no English necessary....


You can rest assure that the official language is English and all commands are given in that language. Same with air traffic control.


----------



## Junkie

Dont write things you dont understand and language you dont speak. It is a dialect of BCS(M).

So, only Stokavian is used in media and taught in schools. But there are two variants of it one is ijekavian that is used by Croats, all Bosnians and Montenegrenis while in Serbia official is ekavica.


----------



## Verso

Kajkavian is probably just a Slovenian dialect, but Croats will never admit it.


----------



## Junkie

Verso said:


> Kajkavian is probably just a Slovenian dialect, but Croats will never admit it.


Yes Verso in your dreams, same as gulf of Piran. #NeverSlovenian


----------



## MichiH

I've crossed D-CH, CH-F, F-I, I-CH, CH-I, I-GR, GR-NMK, NMK-AL, AL-GR, GR-BG, BG-NMK, NMK-GR, GR-NMK, NMK-GR, GR-I, CH-I and I-D border crossings in the last 3 weeks.

There were no checks between Germany, France, Switzerland and Italy, but at all other borders.

All checks were fair and waiting times low. I think it took between 2 and 20 minutes, usually less than 10 minutes. They asked for ID, vehicle licence and green cards. Twice, I was asked for my driver license (I-GR and once when entering NMK).
According to my experience, Greek checks were the quickest. NMK made most strict checks - or let's say, it took longer.

Three situations are noteable:

*NMK-AL (Goricë - Stenjë):* The road was quite empty at Saturday noon. I overtook a group of four cyclists in front of the border. There were two cars in front of me at the NMK booth but a truck driver who has parked in a different (closed?) lane also walked to the officer to let his documents check. Then, the bicycle group arrived and stopped directly next to the booth. Their documents were checked before mine. Then, the truck driver came back to let anything check. I was a little bit pissed off but checking my docuements took 1 minute at maximum. Quite relaxed. I arrived at the Albanian booth and cyclists were already checked and it just took another minute for me.

*BG-NMK (Stanke Lisichkovo - Delchevo):* I think there were 2 or 3 cars in front of me. Standard checks by BG, then by NMK at their booth. NMK had another gate for customs which was closed but the officer left it when he the car in front of me had passed. The gate for the other (closed) lane to the right was opened. I slowly drove to the left gate and saw that no one is in the booth. I stopped, looked around and slowly started driving to the right lane with open gate and then suddenly the officer came back shouting anything. I said "nothing to declare" but he strictly asked me where I'm from, where I wanna go to et cetera. I had to open my trunk (he said boot but I don't like BE). Then he finally asked: "Alcohol, cigarettes?" "No." "No alcohol, no cigarettes?" "No". "Go". They opened the left gate but my car was in a bad angle. I said goodbye "Have a nice day, bye,..." when starting to drive and didn't realize that the second officer had closed the right gate. I hit it but it's just plastics or whatever. Nothing happened. Officers were a little bit nervous though 

*GR-I (Igoumenitsa* ferry terminal on my way back to Italy): I've purchased the ferry ticket online in advance but I had to pick up the ticket itself anywhere on site. I arrived at the ferry gates but I was not sure where and just lined up with the car at the ferry terminal. You could only enter via a 1-laned ramp and only 1 gate was opened. It was exactly here. There were about 10..12 cars, caravans and motorbikes in front of me and they did thorough checks (documents and trunk). They always checked two cars parallel in the same queue. When I was close to the gate, I realized that I don't get the ticket here but the other drivers already have their tickets. I couldn't leave the queue though. Two cars in front of me was a German car and they obviously had no tickets too. They could pass without any check and I saw them driving to the left inside of the ferry ground. To the exit? Then, they checked me. Ticket? No, I don't have it yet, where do I get it? Pass, go to the left and exit, pick up your ticket at the terminal and come back. I saw the German car coming back and they looked lost. I asked again, where can I exit? Just there, to the left. OK. I went there and the exit gate was closed, no one on site. I talked to the other German driver and we realized that we cannot exit. The guy drove further to the ferries but I walked to the gate were I've entered and told them that the exit gate is closed. They apologized and said that they'll open the gate. It worked. I parked outside, went to the passenger terminal where I got my ticket. I saw the German guy again, he also had to check in and pick up the ferry ticket. He entered the terminal from the other side, that means, I obviously parked inside of the ferry ground.
I queued in with my car at the gate again. The queue was a little bit longer now, maybe 15 vehicles. Then, they opened a second gate feeded by the same 1-laned ramp. A officer walked through the queue, quick glance on the cars and then he instructed each car to the right (normal) lane or to the left. The left lane was for more thorough checks. I was car number 3 in the left lane. Showing ID, vehicle licence, opening trunk. And some questions: "Where do you go to?" "Italy." "Where from?" "Germnay." (not the right answer). "Where from?" "Germany." "Where you from?" "Here in Greece? I was in Saloniki" (right answer now). "Only Saloniki?" "No, I was driving around." "You've been else?" "Yes, I drove around near Saloniki" (the guy was about to waving we through) "Else? Skopja?" "Yes, Skopje!" "Skopja?" (he was surprised) "Yes, I've been to Skopje too." (he got nervous, gave short instruction to his colleague). "Drive to the box there and _exrail_?" "Where?" "To that box and wait." "There is nothing, what should I do there?" (just a little red barrier box) "Go to the box and wait for _exrail_?" "For what?" "_exrail_?" "X-Ray?" "Yes, X-Ray. Go there and wait, a car will come in a minute." I went there and waited. Another car to be checked came. Then, a van with dimmed windows arrived, drove around both cars waiting and then stopped. Nothing happened. Finally, a young woman left the vehicle. She was German and told me that I should leave the car now. She entered the van, the van drove around my car and stopped. A officer left the car and I had to open my trunk. Just a quick glace on what's there on the right of my trunk (a bag with shoes) and then I went back to his van. After about one minute the German woman left the van and told me that everything is fine and that I can go now.

Summary: Another car and me could pass the gate without any check because we had no tickets. We could move on the ferry ground as desired. When I was back for the second time, I got a thorough check and when I admitted that I've been to "Skopja"... It was like I said that I come from Syria, Afghanistan or North Korea... My car was even X-Rayed! The other German car without tickets was not checked at all... Odd.


----------



## Eulanthe

Palance said:


> Great document! Especially the pictures of the Obreje crossing in 1991. It is on the former M1, highway of brotherhood and unitiy. I have always remembered the INA gasstation, followed by a Petrol gas station hardly 500 metres away, so in the Yugoslav times we knew where the Slovene-Croatian border ran approximately.


It's interesting to see that the situation remains to this day when heading towards Ljubljana. I suppose this was one of the consequences of the individual republics and provinces having a large amount of autonomy. 

Probably the most interesting thing for me is the way that while the republics and provinces had autonomy, the border between them wasn't actually marked. I've read an account of the war breaking out in Slavonia, and one problem that journalists had was in actually determining where the border was, because it wasn't marked at all. 



> I have crossed here in 1992 from HR to SLO, and that was the first time I faced the reality of the fall of Yugoslavia. The Slovene side was already well built and equipped, while the Croatian side (Bregana) was nothing more then a container/police block on the road. As far as I remember at the spot where the INA gas station was.


Yes, from my research, it seems that Slovenia was already well prepared for creating the border, while Croatia was still dragging her feet. It seems that the Slovenian leadership decided that the best symbol of independence was to secure/build border crossings, while pragmatically, they probably also realised that it was an important source of revenue. Croatia had far bigger problems to deal with, so building modern border crossings probably wasn't on their mind at the time. 

This is the Dravograd border crossing (SLO-A) in 1962. 










And a video (from 2:00 onwards) that confuses me - http://www.euscreen.eu/item.html?id=EUS_1B556A40753E4EFD99480B3501524036 

Does anyone know where the border crossing "Sladki Vrh" was? I've looked on the map and there's only a small ferry boat there, yet the video shows a huge duty free shop/restaurant. 

And another video with some fantastic video of the first border controls between Slovenia and Croatia - http://www.euscreen.eu/item.html?id=EUS_C0A4E0A7C10546C995E2A3E388D76726 - the best thing is that it shows the first border crossing at Gruskovje, not the second one that I posted above. 

Many more here, too: http://www.omnia.ie/index.php?navigation_function=3&europeana_query=mejni prehodi


----------



## tfd543

Eulanthe said:


> Yes! I finally found what I've been trying to find for a long, long time: how Gruskovje looked after independence. The Slovenes will correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that this was how it looked until the modern Gruskovje crossing was built.
> 
> http://www.zvvs.si/publikacije/CARI...NE CARINE_OSAMOSVAJANE 1991_Stevilka_08_1.pdf - page 7. There are also other interesting pictures, but this is the holy grail for me  There's also pictures of other border crossings, including Obrežje in the first days of independence.
> 
> It seems to have been here?




The major obrezje crossing point is mentioned a lot. What is written about it? As I understand, the facilities that we see today are from 2003. Allegedly, EU told Slovenia to modernize it before entering EU in 2004..

Does anyone have a photo of the crossing point between 1991 and 2003 ?


----------



## alserrod

Why are there controls I-GR?


----------



## MichiH

alserrod said:


> Why are there controls I-GR?


:dunno: It's also from Italy to Greece.


----------



## Corvinus

alserrod said:


> Why are there controls I-GR?


A major reason is the persistent high pressure of illegal immigration and human trafficking towards Western Europe. Even if since 2015 the stream along the "Balkan route" has significantly been reduced due to increased border security and newly erected physical barriers (fences, concertina wire), there are ongoing attempts of illegal transits via Turkey and Greece.


----------



## MichiH

^^ We talk about a regular ferry connection from Greece to Italy and vice versa. I had similar checks at ferries between France and Ireland (and from Northern Ireland to Scotland) but Ireland is a non-Schengen-country.


----------



## alserrod

Going to UK, I had always passport control but they barely checked it. I guess that as far as they know each car plate and name of passengers, they have time to check for it before and know who may had a greater control.


About Balkans, I asked... are there usually movements just to fill for fuel due to prices along borders?


----------



## Palance

alserrod said:


> About Balkans, I asked... are there usually movements just to fill for fuel due to prices along borders?


For Croats for example Bajakovo in Serbia ans Neum in BiH are well known for low prices, so there is a kind of shopping tourism.



alserrod said:


> Why are there controls I-GR?


Because the ferry, although between 2 countries who are in Schengen, goes through international waters, so it leaves Schengen for a while.
I wonder if we have more of such examples (Italy-France (Corse) perhaps?)


----------



## Dorado.

alserrod said:


> About Balkans, I asked... are there usually movements just to fill for fuel due to prices along borders?


Yeah, as far as I know in Shkoder (Albania) there are people who often cross the border to Montenegro just to fill for fuel. Many things are cheaper in MN.


----------



## MichiH

Palance said:


> Because the ferry, although between 2 countries who are in Schengen, goes through international waters, so it leaves Schengen for a while.
> I wonder if we have more of such examples (Italy-France (Corse) perhaps?)


I only had controls when LEAVING but never when entering though.


----------



## General Maximus

Palance said:


> For Croats for example Bajakovo in Serbia ans Neum in BiH are well known for low prices, so there is a kind of shopping tourism.
> 
> 
> Because the ferry, although between 2 countries who are in Schengen, goes through international waters, so it leaves Schengen for a while.
> I wonder if we have more of such examples (Italy-France (Corse) perhaps?)


They're only customs controls though, and that happens anywhere within Schengen. There are no immigration checks, the odd random one excepted, which also happens within Schengen. Random immigration checks are often carried out by the Dutch on their borders with Belgium and Germany.

For a ship leaving Schengen is not a valid reason. Planes leave Schengen airspace from time to time, so what...


----------



## Palance

General Maximus said:


> For a ship leaving Schengen is not a valid reason. Planes leave Schengen airspace from time to time, so what...


It is possible to illegally enter a ship during the sailing. On a plane that is more difficult during flight


----------



## MichiH

Palance said:


> It is possible to illegally enter a ship during the sailing. On a plane that is more difficult during flight


If so, they should check arriving ferries, not departing ferries  But they don't....


----------



## General Maximus

Palance said:


> It is possible to illegally enter a ship during the sailing. On a plane that is more difficult during flight


Far fetched, and it wouldn't go unnoticed.


----------



## Junkie

The thing about boats is really not clear to me as I have saw many boats on Danube crossing 10 borders in an hour or crossing one side to another. Sometimes border runs on the edge of the river but many times in the middle..... 

How about sailing from one location to another in "EU" ? Do you need to be checked for passport


----------



## General Maximus

You do when sailing to Britain from the continent as it's not in Schengen. There are no passport checks between mainland Britain and the Republic of Ireland, although - like anywhere else - random immigration and customs checks are being carried out from time to time.


----------



## Skopje/Скопје

Today in the news I've read about the opening of the border crossing between N. Macedonia and Kosovo, Belanovce-Stancic. Apparently, it will be open in August this year. On the video there are some interesting shots of it.

_source_


----------



## alserrod

Palance said:


> For Croats for example Bajakovo in Serbia ans Neum in BiH are well known for low prices, so there is a kind of shopping tourism.
> 
> 
> Because the ferry, although between 2 countries who are in Schengen, goes through international waters, so it leaves Schengen for a while.
> I wonder if we have more of such examples (Italy-France (Corse) perhaps?)





General Maximus said:


> They're only customs controls though, and that happens anywhere within Schengen. There are no immigration checks, the odd random one excepted, which also happens within Schengen. Random immigration checks are often carried out by the Dutch on their borders with Belgium and Germany.
> 
> For a ship leaving Schengen is not a valid reason. Planes leave Schengen airspace from time to time, so what...


About ferries, next question is... ID check by company or by officers?

I asked why I had to show ID card for this traject

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Cor...60f76ce794!2m2!1d-13.8297321!2d28.8627481!3e3

for ferry, despite it is not Schengen but also not international.
Reason is assurance companies. Providing ALL passengers have boarded with ID card or passport, insurance is cheaper (let's suppose we have a crash on the sea, it will be easier to know who was on board for rescue).
Therefore, no officers there (except for cars, there are so few stolen cars because it is impossible to move it out of the island, just providing all harbours are controlled).

About fuel prices, sometimes it is matter of time and price sometime. I remember a long time ago, the greater petrol station I had seen was in the motorway, last exit from Spain throguh France. It was pointed as last station indeed.

I know people in France who go for fuel in Spain. I remember before euro, one petrol station in the middle of mountains, just 5km away from border, had a French credit card machine to avoid exchange fees to French drivers (they had a bank account in France).
Anyway, Andorra has been known as a "duty free country" and I reckon no people go just for fuel. It is 13 km (26 with return) from last cross and you can have congestion. Therefore, everyone who enters the country fill the tank but nobody goes just for fuel


----------



## MichiH

alserrod said:


> About ferries, next question is... ID check by company or by officers?


By both. My ID was checked in Italy at the ticket terminal and then when waiting in the queue by a police officers (random check of two cars only, officers w/o uniform, no policecar) but one of them said "police" and showed me his ID (and he had a gun). They checked ID, driver license, vehicle licence, checked the car ID within my car and the trunk. In Greece, the company also asked for my ID when I've picked up my ticket and the guys at the booth I wrote about checked my ID, vehicle licence, trunk and other guys X-Rayed the entire car. No uniform too.


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> About Balkans, I asked... are there usually movements just to fill for fuel due to prices along borders?


Sure, I posted this picture a few years ago: 










This is here - the road is in Croatia (ul. Marka Marulića), but the petrol station is in Bosnia-Hercegovina.


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## alserrod

WTF, do Bosnian workers have to cross border everyday?. Is there passport control in that area?

(BTW, do they stamp always passports or just glance it?)


Have a look to this point

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.118...4!1sAOFj6NkEeb1KEadpZUET-g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Road is in France for several kilometres, but houses in the right, after river, are in Spain. That's a huge duty free area.

And... for Pilgrims, it is one out of Paths of St. James


----------



## tfd543

Skopje/Скопје;159799492 said:


> Today in the news I've read about the opening of the border crossing between N. Macedonia and Kosovo, Belanovce-Stancic. Apparently, it will be open in August this year. On the video there are some interesting shots of it.
> 
> _source_




It looks far too Remote when I look it up on the map. Who will enjoy it when its finished, small local villages?


----------



## haddockman

Palance said:


> Because the ferry, although between 2 countries who are in Schengen, goes through international waters, so it leaves Schengen for a while.
> I wonder if we have more of such examples (Italy-France (Corse) perhaps?)


 France has full passport controls on some internal flights.


I had my passport checked leaving Paris to Martinique. I was checked by PAF leaving Paris and by the Police National on arrival.


----------



## MattiG

alserrod said:


> Why are there controls I-GR?


The Schengen system by no means forces the shipping companies and airlines to not check the IDs of the travelers. The shipping companies have the responsibility to prevent the passengers from carrying illegal matters (like gas tanks on the car deck). Often, such checks are random ones at the ferry ports, but regular ones at the airports. In addition, there are regulations to know the names of the passengers. The security of the border is a different thing from the safety of the ferry.

Even if the regulations at the internal borders to the Nordic Passport Union are more relaxed than the Schengen ones, I have been asked for the IDs a few times at the ferry ports at the Swedish-Finnish ports. (Usually they were interested in the adults only, and just counted the number of kids at the backseat to match the ticket.) Once, a lady in Stockholm Värtan port was very keen on knowing if we were carrying knives. Of course we were, a kitchen knife. Opened the trunk and introduced our picnic basket, and she was satisfied.

There are often exit checks at the Helsinki port at the Helsinki-Tallink line to catch stolen cars and equipment. That route is quite a popular path to use by the criminals of the eastern Europe. If you are leaving Helsinki on a Lithuanian- or Romanian-registered van, you are quite likely to be interviewed.


----------



## Skopje/Скопје

tfd543 said:


> It looks far too Remote when I look it up on the map. Who will enjoy it when its finished, small local villages?


Well, yes, the villages in that region.


----------



## OulaL

MattiG said:


> Even if the regulations at the internal borders to the Nordic Passport Union are more relaxed than the Schengen ones, I have been asked for the IDs a few times at the ferry ports at the Swedish-Finnish ports.



After reaching the silver level in ClubOne (TallinkSilja's frequent traveller program), I was asked for the ID _every_ time. I assume they wanted to know that it is the right person travelling on a discounted price.


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> WTF, do Bosnian workers have to cross border everyday?. Is there passport control in that area?
> 
> (BTW, do they stamp always passports or just glance it?)


So, in this case, it works like this:

There's a full international border crossing (Gabela - Gabela Polje I) here . I just noticed that there's another petrol station opened up on that street, also physically located in BiH but accessible only from Croatia. 

Apart from that, the people living in BiH (but which have properties that can only be accessed from Croatia) have barriers on the border that they can open with keycards. There are video connections that monitor the whole street - http://eufondovi.mup.hr/primjeri-pr...ustav-nadzora-drzavne-granice-u-metkovicu/192 - here, you can also see the barriers that are used to prevent people driving in/out of BiH without permission. 

There used to be a guard post on ul. Sredjna too, but when I was there, the guard post was clearly abandoned and several roads into BiH were wide open. As far as I know, there are no guard posts on the road now - everything is controlled via barriers that can only be opened by residents with special passes. It's important to note that the people living there are probably all ethnic Croats with Croatian passports. 

As far as I know, only people living in houses in BiH that have no connection to BiH proper (by road) have passes that allow them to open the barriers. Everyone else has to go through Gabela/Gabela Polje I. 

So yes, the workers have to pass through the border crossing to get to work. The reason why those petrol stations exist - the border isn't officially demarcated. You can see it clearly on OSM. The border is agreed to run along the edge of the street on the eastern side, and as I understand the situation, you either have to have a pass or you need to get permission from the border police at the nearby border crossing to visit someone there. However, they're not strictly controlling the street - I stopped there and took many pictures, and no-one asked me what I was doing. I have read accounts that people were fined for crossing the border here though, but only if they went further than the local houses or if they used the crossing on ul. Srednja. 

As for stamps - locals have a 'local border pass' so their passports don't get stamped, and they aren't require to comply with the rules (health insurance/money/etc) for temporary visits. But for all other BiH citizens outside of the local area, they need to have a passport and it gets stamped.

BiH is also always stamping passports on entry and sometimes on exit.

Interesting point about ferries: no-one has done it yet in the Balkans, but before Poland joined the EU, there were many boats travelling between Polish and German ports on the Oder river. Some of those "cruises" would take as little as 10 minutes to go between ports, and the sole purpose was to sell duty free booze, cigarettes and other items. Tickets were almost given away (50 Euro cent/return, for instance) and people wouldn't even bother getting off the ferry.


----------



## alserrod

Quite interesting.

Are kuna accepted there or just marks?


----------



## volodaaaa

MichiH said:


> I've crossed D-CH, CH-F, F-I, I-CH, CH-I, I-GR, GR-NMK, NMK-AL, AL-GR, GR-BG, BG-NMK, NMK-GR, GR-NMK, NMK-GR, GR-I, CH-I and I-D border crossings in the last 3 weeks.
> 
> There were no checks between Germany, France, Switzerland and Italy, but at all other borders.
> 
> All checks were fair and waiting times low. I think it took between 2 and 20 minutes, usually less than 10 minutes. They asked for ID, vehicle licence and green cards. Twice, I was asked for my driver license (I-GR and once when entering NMK).
> According to my experience, Greek checks were the quickest. NMK made most strict checks - or let's say, it took longer.
> 
> Three situations are noteable:
> 
> *NMK-AL (Goricë - Stenjë):* The road was quite empty at Saturday noon. I overtook a group of four cyclists in front of the border. There were two cars in front of me at the NMK booth but a truck driver who has parked in a different (closed?) lane also walked to the officer to let his documents check. Then, the bicycle group arrived and stopped directly next to the booth. Their documents were checked before mine. Then, the truck driver came back to let anything check. I was a little bit pissed off but checking my docuements took 1 minute at maximum. Quite relaxed. I arrived at the Albanian booth and cyclists were already checked and it just took another minute for me.
> 
> *BG-NMK (Stanke Lisichkovo - Delchevo):* I think there were 2 or 3 cars in front of me. Standard checks by BG, then by NMK at their booth. NMK had another gate for customs which was closed but the officer left it when he the car in front of me had passed. The gate for the other (closed) lane to the right was opened. I slowly drove to the left gate and saw that no one is in the booth. I stopped, looked around and slowly started driving to the right lane with open gate and then suddenly the officer came back shouting anything. I said "nothing to declare" but he strictly asked me where I'm from, where I wanna go to et cetera. I had to open my trunk (he said boot but I don't like BE). Then he finally asked: "Alcohol, cigarettes?" "No." "No alcohol, no cigarettes?" "No". "Go". They opened the left gate but my car was in a bad angle. I said goodbye "Have a nice day, bye,..." when starting to drive and didn't realize that the second officer had closed the right gate. I hit it but it's just plastics or whatever. Nothing happened. Officers were a little bit nervous though
> 
> *GR-I (Igoumenitsa* ferry terminal on my way back to Italy): I've purchased the ferry ticket online in advance but I had to pick up the ticket itself anywhere on site. I arrived at the ferry gates but I was not sure where and just lined up with the car at the ferry terminal. You could only enter via a 1-laned ramp and only 1 gate was opened. It was exactly here. There were about 10..12 cars, caravans and motorbikes in front of me and they did thorough checks (documents and trunk). They always checked two cars parallel in the same queue. When I was close to the gate, I realized that I don't get the ticket here but the other drivers already have their tickets. I couldn't leave the queue though. Two cars in front of me was a German car and they obviously had no tickets too. They could pass without any check and I saw them driving to the left inside of the ferry ground. To the exit? Then, they checked me. Ticket? No, I don't have it yet, where do I get it? Pass, go to the left and exit, pick up your ticket at the terminal and come back. I saw the German car coming back and they looked lost. I asked again, where can I exit? Just there, to the left. OK. I went there and the exit gate was closed, no one on site. I talked to the other German driver and we realized that we cannot exit. The guy drove further to the ferries but I walked to the gate were I've entered and told them that the exit gate is closed. They apologized and said that they'll open the gate. It worked. I parked outside, went to the passenger terminal where I got my ticket. I saw the German guy again, he also had to check in and pick up the ferry ticket. He entered the terminal from the other side, that means, I obviously parked inside of the ferry ground.
> I queued in with my car at the gate again. The queue was a little bit longer now, maybe 15 vehicles. Then, they opened a second gate feeded by the same 1-laned ramp. A officer walked through the queue, quick glance on the cars and then he instructed each car to the right (normal) lane or to the left. The left lane was for more thorough checks. I was car number 3 in the left lane. Showing ID, vehicle licence, opening trunk. And some questions: "Where do you go to?" "Italy." "Where from?" "Germnay." (not the right answer). "Where from?" "Germany." "Where you from?" "Here in Greece? I was in Saloniki" (right answer now). "Only Saloniki?" "No, I was driving around." "You've been else?" "Yes, I drove around near Saloniki" (the guy was about to waving we through) "Else? Skopja?" "Yes, Skopje!" "Skopja?" (he was surprised) "Yes, I've been to Skopje too." (he got nervous, gave short instruction to his colleague). "Drive to the box there and _exrail_?" "Where?" "To that box and wait." "There is nothing, what should I do there?" (just a little red barrier box) "Go to the box and wait for _exrail_?" "For what?" "_exrail_?" "X-Ray?" "Yes, X-Ray. Go there and wait, a car will come in a minute." I went there and waited. Another car to be checked came. Then, a van with dimmed windows arrived, drove around both cars waiting and then stopped. Nothing happened. Finally, a young woman left the vehicle. She was German and told me that I should leave the car now. She entered the van, the van drove around my car and stopped. A officer left the car and I had to open my trunk. Just a quick glace on what's there on the right of my trunk (a bag with shoes) and then I went back to his van. After about one minute the German woman left the van and told me that everything is fine and that I can go now.
> 
> Summary: Another car and me could pass the gate without any check because we had no tickets. We could move on the ferry ground as desired. When I was back for the second time, I got a thorough check and when I admitted that I've been to "Skopja"... It was like I said that I come from Syria, Afghanistan or North Korea... My car was even X-Rayed! The other German car without tickets was not checked at all... Odd.


Well, the Greek checks are very often the quickest. Unless there is a dozen of Macedonian cars ahead of you :lol::lol: But yes, Macedonians sometimes show muscles. I remember two years ago when I went to Greece by car. A Macedonian officer looked over my passport, scanned it several times and asked questions about my purpose. His Greek counterpart was sitting in the booth with his hand hanging off the window. :lol: As I approached the box he read the licence plate, just raised his eyebrows, indicated something that could have been described as waving and said some mumbles showing he did not care at all. :lol::lol::lol: I did not even stop my car, just slowly passed.


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> After reaching the silver level in ClubOne (TallinkSilja's frequent traveller program), I was asked for the ID _every_ time. I assume they wanted to know that it is the right person travelling on a discounted price.


Most probably yes. This is a good example about a case where the shipping company wants to check the ID at the border even if not obliged by the regulations.


----------



## mapman:cz

Eulanthe said:


> ...
> No idea where this is, anyone know? It's definitely the Czech border, but...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A little too late but still - it's the border Vejprty/Bärenstein here:
https://mapy.cz/zakladni?x=13.02963...&pid=42427005&yaw=4.917&fov=1.257&pitch=0.143
or
https://www.google.cz/maps/@50.4964...4!1smoty_ytKzTblT4XsEOD55Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> Are kuna accepted there or just marks?


From what I saw, officially only Bosnian marks, but they were taking kuna at more or less the right exchange rate. Unfortunately, I don't know about the businesses on the BiH side, as when i went there, it was still a locals-only crossing. We tried to ask very politely if the border police would let us go to the shops on the BiH side, but we weren't allowed.

The BiH police said they had nothing against it, and the Croatian police said that they could let us leave, but it would be a problem for them if they let us into Croatia/EU there. Unfortunately, there was a huge jam in Doljani, so I didn't get to visit the other side  

Couple more pictures, showing how the shops are on the BiH side. On the second picture, there's a building with "Dalmatia..." on it. It's the local supermarket, used by people from both sides of the border. 



















mapman:cz - thank you! That's another urban Czech/German border that I have to visit...


----------



## Junkie

^^
In old Yugoslavia you could travel the coast without "passport" from Trieste to Albania.


----------



## aubergine72

Junkie said:


> Dont write things you dont understand and language you dont speak. It is a dialect of BCS(M).
> 
> So, only Stokavian is used in media and taught in schools. But there are two variants of it one is ijekavian that is used by Croats, all Bosnians and Montenegrenis while in Serbia official is ekavica.


In that case, there's no way your Northern dialect is a free-standing language :lol:


----------



## Verso

Junkie said:


> ^^
> In old Yugoslavia you could travel the coast without "passport" from Trieste to Albania.


And now you can do it from the Gulf of Piran to Portugal. :troll:


----------



## italystf

Eulanthe said:


> From what I saw, officially only Bosnian marks, but they were taking kuna at more or less the right exchange rate. Unfortunately, I don't know about the businesses on the BiH side, as when i went there, it was still a locals-only crossing. We tried to ask very politely if the border police would let us go to the shops on the BiH side, but we weren't allowed.
> 
> The BiH police said they had nothing against it, and the Croatian police said that they could let us leave, but it would be a problem for them if they let us into Croatia/EU there. Unfortunately, there was a huge jam in Doljani, so I didn't get to visit the other side
> 
> Couple more pictures, showing how the shops are on the BiH side. On the second picture, there's a building with "Dalmatia..." on it. It's the local supermarket, used by people from both sides of the border.


So the supermarket lies across the border and can be accessed freely of controls from both sides?


----------



## alserrod

Euthlante....quite interesting

Btw, is it compulsory to have passport or is it enough with ID Card? (I guess enough Sl-Hr but what about HR-BH?)


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> Euthlante....quite interesting
> 
> Btw, is it compulsory to have passport or is it enough with ID Card? (I guess enough Sl-Hr but what about HR-BH?)


We EU citizens can visit all Balkan countries with ID only. Kosovo requires biometric ID. Citizens of non-UE Balkan countries need passport to enter EU, including Croatia.


----------



## Junkie

Verso said:


> And now you can do it from the Gulf of Piran to Portugal. :troll:


No you have to be checked on border. As long as I remember Macron said France is taking measures to even shrink the zone and introduce border control.


----------



## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> These frontier zones are becoming more and more annoyingly common. Lithuania has one too, and Estonia is talking about it. There's really no reason to restrict access to border areas, as remote surveillance can easily track and follow the movements of everyone in the border areas.


Setting up the frontier zone was agreed by the Paris Treaty 1947 after the WWII, and it was a requirement by the Soviet Union. Nowadays, it is de facto an internal matter to Finland, making it substantially easier to control the border running 1200+ kilometers mostly in the middle of nothing.



> Finland at least seems to have some common sense regarding access to the frontier zone, because you can visit for any reason as long as the border guard agrees.


Initially it was 3 km wide on the land and 4 km on the seas. Nowadays it can be tuned for local needs, and in some places it is only some tens of meters wide. For instance, in Ilomantsi where the eastmost point of the continental EU lies, the zone excludes the forest road leading to the point where that specific border mark is visible. The local head of the frontier guard got tired on writing thousands of permits to tourists every year. Another very narrow spot is on the boat route to Virolahti. Earlier, all visitors had to apply a permit.



> Matti, do you have any idea what this is here?


Sure. It is Nuijamaa where both the Saimaa Canal and the road 13 Lappeenranta-Viipuri cross the Finnish-Russian border. 

Very detailed public maps over Finland can be found at https://asiointi.maanmittauslaitos.fi/karttapaikka/ and that service shows where the frontier zone is located.

Here is an annotated map:










At the north edge you can see the south end of the Finnish section of the Saimaa Canal. The passport and customs control take place at the quay at the mouth of the canal. 

Next to the boat quay, you can see the old decomissioned border control station for the road traffic. Its capacity got exhausted, and it was replaced by a new one in 2006.


----------



## kokomo

italystf said:


> Our populist minister of internal affairs Matteo Salvini and the governor of region Friuli Venezia Giulia Massimiliano Fedriga recently proposed to fence the entire border between Italy and Slovenia (243 km from Tarvisio to Muggia) to prevent illegal immigrants entering Italy across forests. Utter madness!


I was watching a video of trenches of the WWI and some of them, Austrian ones, used to run where the boundary is and zig zags from one country to another...


----------



## Verso

Gyorgy said:


> In don't know, if Cerar is not a reliable source for you, then maybe you know better or something he doesn't want to tell us.


Simple logic dictates that Italians can't demand something they didn't even come up with. Perhaps they told our government to do something about illegal immigration, but not joint patrols since they were Cerar's idea. That much I know.



> Maybe it's not even the way to avoid fences, as controls are planned to last for three months, after that Italian side will evaluate the results.


So now it's not the way to avoid fence?


----------



## Gyorgy

Verso said:


> So now it's not the way to avoid fence?


It is for three months after that we'll see.


----------



## OulaL

MattiG said:


> An example of such a case is the Finnish-Russian border at the Finnish side. The entire border is protected by the Frontier Zone. An access to the zone is subject to a special permit.


There is a border zone on the Russian side as well, up to 10 km wide. Like the border zone in Finland, visiting requires a special permit.

Unlike the Finnish border zone, it includes some major villages or even towns, such as old Värtsilä on the Finnish border and Ivangorod on the Estonian border and so on. Residents of these settlements have the border zone permit, and anyone visiting them also must have one.

Also, the road leading to the neighbouring country itself is _not_ exempt from the border zone. A person lawfully entering or exiting Russia is allowed to drive the fastest possible route between the actual border and the inner limit of the border zone without having the border zone permit, but they are not allowed to stop en route. Even if you want to refuel right after crossing the border (which may be tempting when having gotten used to Finnish prices), you must not do so until you reach the inner limit of the border zone, unless, of course, you have the border zone permit.

https://goo.gl/maps/nCwxaphsn9LP3TJ2A This is what the inner limit of the border zone looks like (when exiting Russia). You may be required to present your documents before proceeding. That document is either the border zone permit or some passport that proves your right to enter the next country (that is, a Schengen member country passport or any other passport with a valid Schengen visa).

Note that Street View ends here; photographing is not allowed on the border zone. (EDIT: in Finland it is, thanks to MattiG for correction.)


----------



## Junkie

^^
It sounds like a transport corridor something which was very famous in East Germany where Westerners from West Germany traveled to West Berlin via corridor. What I also find interesting and corresponding to this is that some former Soviet countries still have two inner border checkpoints when exiting one of which is military check before the actual police/customs check. You can see this on borders such as Ukraine-Belarus or Ukraine-Moldova and I think Russia too.


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> Note that Street View ends here; photographing is not allowed on the border zone, as it is not in Finland either.


The Finnish legislation about the frontier zone was modernized in the year 2005. Photographing has been allowed since September 1st, 2005. Many other obsolete rules were dropped, too.


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> ^ You have to carry your passport or ID at all times, regardless if you're in a border area or in the middle of the country.


How about swimming? I was swimming at Sunday at Una river so i could easily pass HR-BIH border at the middle of the river there.

Also, rafting there requires only registration at police office. No documentation at the raft.


----------



## alserrod

I guess, this is Finland but Russia is ahead
https://www.google.pl/maps/@61.5161...0&yaw=320&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656

I cannot see any fence. Would it be signaled not to cross?


----------



## alserrod

Another border crossing.

Spain and Morocco have treatments that ID card is valid for a single day in the other country. That's the reason there are so many Moroccan people that enter into Ceuta and Melilla but must return before night. Conversely, Spanish citizens are allowed to enter and come back without passport (should they have passport, they can stay as tourist as regular basis).

But... last chance is to go to Tangier. There's one ferry company that remembers they have several daily ferries and you can cross the strait and being in Tangier for a 1 day visit, returning in the last ferry of the day.

The fact is.... few people in Spain have passport because you needn't for neighbour countries... but not for the case of Morocco. Hence the hint to remember, no need passport just for a return ticket and should you want to visit a new country...

Business is business and if it fills ferries a bit more... more business


----------



## Verso

Gyorgy said:


> It is for three months after that we'll see.


Anyway, in the first half of this year Italians returned 146 illegals to Slovenia, which is nothing for a country the size of Italy. But if Salvini wants zero immigrants, then it's a problem.



x-type said:


> How about swimming? I was swimming at Sunday at Una river so i could easily pass HR-BIH border at the middle of the river there.
> 
> Also, rafting there requires only registration at police office. No documentation at the raft.


I don't know exactly, but you would need documents, if you landed on the other side of the river, not just crossed the border line in the middle of it, I'm pretty sure about that.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Anyway, in the first half of this year Italians returned 146 illegals to Slovenia, which is nothing for a country the size of Italy. But if Salvini wants zero immigrants, then it's a problem.


That's just an ideological issue, not practical. Our country has the resources to cope with few hundred migrants (I mean things like first aid, identification, asylum procedure, or eventual expulsion). They won't make us poorer or threat our democratic system. But for political reasons Salvini wants to show his muscles.
Yesterday, 22 Iraqi refugees arrived in Italy hidden in a truck loaded on a ferry between Turkey and Trieste. The driver didn't realize that and notice them only when he was on A23 near Gemona. The refugees later asked for asylum.


Verso said:


> I don't know exactly, but you would need documents, if you landed on the other side of the river, not just crossed the border line in the middle of it, I'm pretty sure about that.


Even if you have valid documents, I don't think that an unguarded random point along a border river is a legitimate point of entry.


----------



## Gyorgy

Verso said:


> Anyway, in the first half of this year Italians returned 146 illegals to Slovenia, which is nothing for a country the size of Italy. But if Salvini wants zero immigrants, then it's a problem.
> 
> I don't know exactly, but you would need documents, if you landed on the other side of the river, not just crossed the border line in the middle of it, I'm pretty sure about that.


You know how it is, in the first half of this year 10 000 people illegaly entered BiH and 7000 are still there. The difference is probably in Italy by now.


----------



## MattiG

alserrod said:


> I guess, this is Finland but Russia is ahead
> https://www.google.pl/maps/@61.5161...0&yaw=320&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656
> 
> I cannot see any fence. Would it be signaled not to cross?


The edge of the frontier zone runs along the east side of the road. As you follow the Google imagery, you can see a yellow sign every 50 meters or less. No way to accidentally enter the frontier zone.

There is no fence at the frontier zone edge, and not at the actual border line either. In the north, there is a fence close to the border line but it is to prevent reindeer from crossing the border.

The control at the Finnish side is not about prevention but detection. If you approach the border, you will not see not men pointing you with their machine guns. Instead, you will most probably meet polite frontier guards, who "happen" to be just there, demonstrating their existence and invisibly making their risk assesments. But if you do something illegal, you fill find yourself in the center of a serious police and frontier operation, and nobody smiles.


----------



## Proterra

OulaL said:


> A person lawfully entering or exiting Russia is allowed to drive the fastest possible route between the actual border and the inner limit of the border zone without having the border zone permit, but they are not allowed to stop en route. Even if you want to refuel right after crossing the border (which may be tempting when having gotten used to Finnish prices), you must not do so until you reach the inner limit of the border zone, unless, of course, you have the border zone permit.


I just believe that the Russians are f*cked up in their head with their border zones and closed cities. Not an example to follow for civilized countries.


----------



## masala

OulaL said:


> Also, the road leading to the neighbouring country itself is _not_ exempt from the border zone. A person lawfully entering or exiting Russia is allowed to drive the fastest possible route between the actual border and the inner limit of the border zone without having the border zone permit, but they are not allowed to stop en route. Even if you want to refuel right after crossing the border (which may be tempting when having gotten used to Finnish prices), you must not do so until you reach the inner limit of the border zone, unless, of course, you have the border zone permit.
> 
> https://goo.gl/maps/nCwxaphsn9LP3TJ2A This is what the inner limit of the border zone looks like (when exiting Russia).


This is not true. You can clearly see Lukoil gas station in the inner limit of border zone.
Also, there are plenty of small business there, car repair shops, car wash, cafes, gas stations, small shops.
You can stop there.


----------



## OulaL

masala said:


> This is not true. You can clearly see Lukoil gas station in the inner limit of border zone.
> Also, there are plenty of small business there, car repair shops, car wash, cafes, gas stations, small shops.
> You can stop there.


Yes, you can, but you need a border zone permit for that.

Or you can try without, but then you risk getting fined.


----------



## masala

OulaL said:


> Yes, you can, but you need a border zone permit for that.
> 
> Or you can try without, but then you risk getting fined.


The only thing you need is your passport.


----------



## OulaL

masala said:


> The only thing you need is your passport.



People have been fined when refueling on the border zone without border zone permit.

This is a news article from Yle, unfortunately in Finnish only. https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-8535320


----------



## mgk920

Proterra said:


> I just believe that the Russians are f*cked up in their head with their border zones and closed cities. Not an example to follow for civilized countries.


The Finland/Norway/Russia triple point:

https://goo.gl/maps/cmPUmCzq9SaFsA8M8

(To the right is Norway, far left is Finland, near left is Russia.)

The Norwegian border guards are there to prevent anyone from trying to walk around the marker cairn. The Russians won't even set up a small fence around it to allow that. OTOH, the Finland/Norway border is unguarded and fully open.

Mike


----------



## masala

OulaL said:


> People have been fined when refueling on the border zone without border zone permit.
> 
> This is a news article from Yle, unfortunately in Finnish only. https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-8535320


I don't know if these news true or not, but at the main transport corridors you are free to stop right after crossing the border.


----------



## Junkie

How about some military borders.

Enclave of Transdnistra:



















South Ossetia:










Kosovo:



















*All of the mentioned territories are disputed territories which declared unilateral "independence" and are/or partially recognized states with no real sovereignity and having disputed borders.


----------



## OulaL

Transnistria is not an enclave. Enclave means a territory that is bordered by one and only one other territory. The word doesn't carry any information about the political status of either.

Transnistria is bordered by two other territories: (the rest of) Moldova and Ukraine.


----------



## alserrod

sorry for OT

Enclave: part of your territory where you have to cross another country to reach there (Baarle has a lot of them)

Exclave: conversely. Part of other country joined to your one. They must take a ferry or maybe crossing river/lake/sea or crossing other territories. One enclave for a country is an exclave for another country

Periclave: Territory joined to a country that it is almos impossible to reach there without going via another country.


For instance

Campione (Italy)
https://www.google.com/maps/place/2...6e8f3afa9e05d1b1!8m2!3d45.9699459!4d8.9714586

Italian enclave, exclave in Switzerland


Periclave

This Austrian side, joined to their territory it is possible to reach only over a mountain or crossing Germany, for instance

https://www.google.com/maps/@47.560422,10.4457607,13.27z


----------



## Junkie

Transdnistria is an enclave of (relative to) Russia. While Abhkazia and Ossetia are not, because they "border" their father Russia.


----------



## mgk920

alserrod said:


> sorry for OT
> 
> Exclave: conversely. Part of other country joined to your one. They must take a ferry or maybe crossing river/lake/sea or crossing other territories. One enclave for a country is an exclave for another country


Other examples of exclaves include Russia's Kaliningrad Oblast and the USA's State of Alaska.

Mike


----------



## Kpc21

Politically, Transnistria is a part of Moldova. But Moldova has no control over it.

Technically, it's a separate country (more or less like Taiwan), although I don't know if it can be called independent. I guess it might be largely influenced by Russia.

Interestingly, almost all the larger-scale business in this country/territory/whatever you call it belongs to one local company, named Sheriff.

They are also a sponsor of a football club Sheriff Tiraspol.

What is even more interesting, regardless of the dispute, this football club is allowed to play in the Moldovan league.

Anyway, it's difficult to call it an exclave of Russia. It's not considered by Russia as its part. It has separate administration, system of law and so on. And it's considered by all the widely recognized countries to be actually an occupied territory of Moldova.


----------



## italystf

Proterra said:


> I just believe that the Russians are f*cked up in their head with their border zones and closed cities. Not an example to follow for civilized countries.


It's crazy, especially considering that Russia is not a popular destination for illegal immigrants like the USA, Western Europe, or Australia.


----------



## italystf

Kpc21 said:


> They are also a sponsor of a football club Sheriff Tiraspol.
> 
> What is even more interesting, regardless of the dispute, this football club is allowed to play in the Moldovan league.


Monaco plays in the French league and San Marino in the Italian one. Trieste's football team played in the Italian league when the Free Territory of Trieste existed.


----------



## Penn's Woods

OulaL said:


> Transnistria is not an enclave. Enclave means a territory that is bordered by one and only one other territory. The word doesn't carry any information about the political status of either.
> 
> Transnistria is bordered by two other territories: (the rest of) Moldova and Ukraine.




Yes. An enclave needs to be completely surrounded by (a single) something else. “En-“ means “in.”


----------



## Verso

Gyorgy said:


> You know how it is, in the first half of this year 10 000 people illegaly entered BiH and 7000 are still there. The difference is probably in Italy by now.


I'm pretty sure many of them went to Austria, or they are still in Croatia and Slovenia.



Junkie said:


> Transdnistria is an enclave of (relative to) Russia. While Abhkazia and Ossetia are not, because they "border" their father Russia.


You're writing nonsense after nonsense. None of these territories is part of Russia and even if they were, Transnistria would be a Russian exclave, not enclave.


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## Aokromes




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## Aokromes




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## Aokromes




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## alserrod

italystf said:


> Monaco plays in the French league and San Marino in the Italian one. Trieste's football team played in the Italian league when the Free Territory of Trieste existed.


Andorra basket team plays in Spanish league. Two years ago they got a ticket for European cup named by their results in Spanish league

That country has its own football league (winner plays first round of Europa Cup) but there's a team that prefers to play in a sort of 4th Spanish league against teams from Catalonia (should they upgrade to 3rd league against north east teams)


----------



## Junkie

Verso said:


> You're writing nonsense after nonsense. None of these territories is part of Russia and even if they were, Transnistria would be a Russian exclave, not enclave.


Everyone knows separatist territories in Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine are unofficial part of Russia. Because they are financing and keeping them alive. 

Small "Independent nations" cannot sustain themselves without their mother. You may wish to call them satellite territories also, something we have seen during the Iron Curtain. Even Crimea is not included into Russia it is some king of protectorate zone, it has own flag

I forgot Republic of Artsakh

Banned flags in Eurovision has been including all of the disputed territories, you can spot here Crimea also


----------



## Verso

Junkie said:


> Even Crimea is not included into Russia it is some king of protectorate zone


Another nonsense. The Republic of Crimea and the federal city of Sevastopol are parts of Russia according to their leaderships and Russia (and _de facto_ as well).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Crimea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevastopol


----------



## Junkie

Crimea has been people's republic, autonomous republic within Ukraine and now it is considered as a separate federal republic which was illegally and forcefully annexed.


----------



## Kpc21

Not by Russia and not by its own (Russian in fact) administration.

We in Poland indeed consider it to officially belong to Ukraine but de facto it's already Russia.

But don't look at Poland. Our opinion is biased. We have been annexed by Russia (together with other countries) twice. Including once for as long as 123 years. With tragic results, Russians doing everything to kill our national identity.

Whether this annexation was legal – my personal opinion is that if the vast majority of people living there really wanted to be in Russia instead of Ukraine, it should be taken into account and this area should be given to Russia. As it happened.

The question is whether they indeed wanted that. One would have to look for some RELIABLE statistics, and I guess this reliability might be a problem...


----------



## Verso

Junkie said:


> Crimea has been people's republic, autonomous republic within Ukraine and now it is considered as a *separate* federal republic which was illegally and forcefully annexed.


It's as "separate" as the Republic of Adygea, the Altai Republic, the Republic of Bashkortostan, and so forth and so on, which are all integral parts of Russia and not its protectorates or colonies. Same holds for Sevastopol.


----------



## Aokromes




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## Aokromes




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## Aokromes




----------



## kokomo

Kpc21 said:


> But don't look at Poland. Our opinion is biased. We have been annexed by Russia (together with other countries) twice. Including once for as long as 123 years. With tragic results, Russians doing everything to kill our national identity.


Poland was also part of former Prussia and AH empire...


----------



## Kpc21

And Prussia was then doing to Poland more or less the same as Russia.

Only Austria-Hungary was more tolerant.


----------



## alserrod

About Austro-Hungarian Imperium, did they had internal borders?. How did they deal with external?
Not a small country, at all


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Were borders really a thing before World War I?


----------



## Verso

alserrod said:


> About Austro-Hungarian Imperium, did they had internal borders?. How did they deal with external?
> Not a small country, at all


Austria-Hungary was the largest European country after the Russian Empire.


----------



## tfd543

Hey Thats Mr. Princip. His grave was used as a public lavatory during the bosnian war 92-95.


----------



## tfd543

Attention to all going southbound from hungary to serbia right now, the queues are very huge (up to 3 hours) at Tompa and Röszke. You are better off taking the Backi Breg crossing point which is international and open 24/7.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

According to police.hu there was a 2 hour waiting time yesterday at midnight.


----------



## tfd543

ChrisZwolle said:


> According to police.hu there was a 2 hour waiting time yesterday at midnight.




Its horrible. thankfully, its a chilly weather these days.

Notice that you need an EU/EEA/CH/SRB passport to go through the secondary borders. Just dont take the chance if you dont meet the conditions. I have a friend that got refused entry with a non-EU passport. We travelled together with our own cars and i got really pissed off because he was together with spouse that was an EU citizen. The law stipulates that EU citizens can bring their non-EU family members through the borders if they can proof the relation.

I was driving first to the inter-border zone and had to return again to give my argument why my friend should be given access but to no avail. The hungarian officer could barely speak English. Yep, a pesky situation.


----------



## alserrod

I've seen Rupa border (SLO-HR) had 30 minutes Southbound and 1-2h Northbound.

Is it often everyday in summer or only on weekends?

Is there any alternative to that border crossing that deserves a detour?


----------



## tfd543

alserrod said:


> I've seen Rupa border (SLO-HR) had 30 minutes Southbound and 1-2h Northbound.
> 
> Is it often everyday in summer or only on weekends?
> 
> Is there any alternative to that border crossing that deserves a detour?




Sure. You have lipa that is your best alternative, but only if u have EU/EEA/CH passport/national id card. Its open 06-22 and 07-22 at week days and weekend days respectively.

Next is Pasjak that is open 24 hours and accepts all passengers. Though, you need to get off the regional road at Ilirska Bistrica if you go southbound.

Whatever you do, good luck mate.


----------



## Corvinus

Hungarian radio mentioned 2 hours for passenger cars and 1 hour for buses concerning the H -> SRB crossing.


----------



## Verso

alserrod said:


> I've seen Rupa border (SLO-HR) had 30 minutes Southbound and 1-2h Northbound.
> 
> Is it often everyday in summer or only on weekends?


Only on weekends.


----------



## alserrod

tfd543 said:


> Sure. You have lipa that is your best alternative, but only if u have EU/EEA/CH passport/national id card. Its open 06-22 and 07-22 at week days and weekend days respectively.
> 
> Next is Pasjak that is open 24 hours and accepts all passengers. Though, you need to get off the regional road at Ilirska Bistrica if you go southbound.
> 
> Whatever you do, good luck mate.


Is Lipa this one?
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.4772619,14.3339567,1228m/data=!3m1!1e3

No problems with EU passport for me.

About Risjak, I have seen it has a lot of traffic too, but seems less than Rupa and focused for going to Italy.




Verso said:


> Only on weekends.


Good to know!!.


----------



## tfd543

No its not. Its between lipa and Novokračine. Look it up on the map. You wont miss it.


----------



## Verso

alserrod said:


> Is Lipa this one?
> https://www.google.com/maps/@45.4772619,14.3339567,1228m/data=!3m1!1e3


No, it's this one. The one you showed is not a border crossing at all.


----------



## italystf

What about Podgorje - Jelovice if you're driving between Trieste and Rijeka?

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Tri...6f383dcbb670!2m2!1d14.442176!2d45.3270631!3e0


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## Aokromes




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## Aokromes




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## Aokromes




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## Aokromes




----------



## aubergine72

Eulanthe said:


> That was a really common Balkan scam back in the 1990's. Bulgaria used to do it as well, for instance


Romania too. It was supposed to disinfect the tires.


----------



## alserrod

aubergine72 said:


> Romania too. It was supposed to disinfect the tires.


In Spain I remember they used former booths when possible...and it helped to catch smugging. They weren't policemen but they suspected and told police one strange movement


----------



## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> That was a really common Balkan scam back in the 1990's. Bulgaria used to do it as well, for instance here - it was a very easy way to collect money as a border tax, and I think Bulgaria is still doing it on the Turkish border.
> 
> https://www.novinite.com/articles/1...Disinfection+System+at+Bulgaria’s+Checkpoints
> 
> 
> 
> It depends on the circumstances. For instance, Serbia takes the police registration seriously, and you should go to the police station to register yourself if you're there more than 24 hours. Montenegro doesn't care in comparison.
> 
> In EU countries, nothing can happen because the laws aren't enforced for EU citizens.
> 
> Before Croatia joined the EU, this was checked on borders at times, especially smaller border crossings. I remember going there after the war, and they wanted proof that I'd registered. Of course I hadn't registered, so it turned into a huge drama. The fine was outrageous: something like 250DM, but of course, some boss man wanted to talk to me first.
> 
> He settled for 200 cigarettes and a bottle of whisky from the Slovenian duty free shop instead. It was my fault, I didn't bother to do the police registration despite it being only a few months after the war ended, and they were quite sensitive about the whole issue.



AFAIK, in Spain it is a must for the hotel, not for the visitor. Each person hosted in a hotel or appartment (aged over 18) must be recorded and sent to police. Some relatives manage a hotel and I remember they had small cards to fill (different for foreing people) and a visitor's book. They had to go to police station every two weeks to show it and get a stamp

Nowadays it is all done online. This is...each hotel sends a file with hosted people.

Obviously if you come as tourist you are entitled to stay in a friend's house or so


----------



## Kpc21

When I was in Italy something like 2 years ago, an owner of the apartment where we were staying demanded us to give him our IDs for him to take photos of them.

He claimed it is required by the authorities...

We agreed because otherwise we would stay without an apartment (furthermore, the landlord spoke almost no English and we spoke no Italian). But requiring anyone to take a photo or a copy of an ID or passport is a TERRIBLE idea from the personal data protection perspective... It may even end up with a loan being taken by someone on your data and you not even being aware of that until the financial institution giving this loan turns to you and asks you to return the money you "owe" them.

Thus, here in Poland, they just recently introduced a law which makes it illegal – unless it's explicitly required by the law (e.g. for the banks due to the AML regulations). Producing counterfeit IDs also became illegal (before, there was actually no law that would forbid that).

Actually – I can't see any sense in copying such documents, even for the banks. When you present the actual document, it confirms your identity because the other person may look at the photo in the document and compare it with your face. When they can't see you in person – the copy of the document actually confirms nothing...


----------



## tfd543

On Monday I will go to the local police to register myself. I have been told by people in the village that I will get a paper scrap to present at the border when I travel out of North Macedonia.

The whole reason is that my NMK passport is expired and I am deliberately waiting to the end of the year to renew it when fresh NMK passports will come out of the bakery


----------



## volodaaaa

volodaaaa said:


> I actually saw this while crossing Kalotina (BG) Dimitrovgrad (SRB) in 2005 :lol:


I hardly understand why I did not post the photos to this thread. Here you are:










Some are from Kalotina - Dimitrovgrad while some from Kulata - Promahonas.


----------



## alserrod

Off topic...about copying documents

In Spain it is compulsory to have un updated copy of your document by all banks and some other data. If it is expired and you get a new one, banker will have an advice to ask you for scan next time you go to bank.

It is not their decision (they lose time) but they must and you can have your account blocked until you provide a new document


----------



## Kpc21

Which is ridiculous. Such a document copy does not confirm anything.

Anyway, banks are quite OK regarding those things, as they are the kind of institution that should be very strict about the security of all the data they process.

But not hotels and not landlords from AirBnB...


----------



## masala

Starting from October this year, you may visit Saint-Petersburg using free e-visa.
https://tass.com/society/1069525

This will probably increase traffic jams for foreign registered cars on Russian border even more.


----------



## mgk920

masala said:


> Starting from October this year, you may visit Saint-Petersburg using free e-visa.
> https://tass.com/society/1069525
> 
> This will probably increase traffic jams for foreign registered cars on Russian border even more.


I'm finding this easing of Russia's border to be very interesting.

Mike


----------



## masala

mgk920 said:


> masala said:
> 
> 
> 
> Starting from October this year, you may visit Saint-Petersburg using free e-visa.
> https://tass.com/society/1069525
> 
> This will probably increase traffic jams for foreign registered cars on Russian border even more.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm finding this easing of Russia's border to be very interesting.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...

This will definitely increase border traffic, for example finns had to pay 80euro for Russian visa, and still traveled to Russia for cheap fuel (0.6e/l), now the visa will be free of charge and you don't need to go anywhere, just submit your passport data via internet.


----------



## eucitizen

masala said:


> This will definitely increase border traffic, for example finns had to pay 80euro for Russian visa, and still traveled to Russia for cheap fuel (0.6e/l), now the visa will be free of charge and you don't need to go anywhere, just submit your passport data via internet.


Well they should scrap the stupid custom declaration of cars, or at least make available online this process, so the custom officer at the border can just check the registration certificate and stamp the paper. At least they started to automatically fill the migration cards. My last Friday's experience of Narva - Ivangorod border was 2h30 to pass.


----------



## masala

eucitizen said:


> Well they should scrap the stupid custom declaration of cars, or at least make available online this process, so the custom officer at the border can just check the registration certificate and stamp the paper. At least they started to automatically fill the migration cards. My last Friday's experience of Narva - Ivangorod border was 2h30 to pass.


Yes, if not canceled, then issued automatically, so you don't need to write anything yourself. That paper "temporary import" is needed to guarantee that you don't use foreign registered car permanently in the country and you need to leave out in a few month.
This year "national projects" program starts, one of the national project is road construction (budget is $77bln for 5 years), another is IT infrastructure and digitization of all the bureaucracy ($26bln). It is going to be changed soon.


----------



## eucitizen

masala said:


> Yes, if not canceled, then issued automatically, so you don't need to write anything yourself. That paper "temporary import" is needed to guarantee that you don't use foreign registered car permanently in the country and you need to leave out in a few month.
> This year "national projects" program starts, one of the national project is road construction (budget is $77bln for 5 years), another is IT infrastructure and digitization of all the bureaucracy ($26bln). It is going to be changed soon.


Hopefully so, as you loose time in making this declaration and if you have someone in front of you who for the 1st time is entering Russia , then you have to wait for a long time.
Btw it seems that Belarus already allows to registere online:
https://ebord.by/en/
And you have a special fast lane at the border.


----------



## x-type

My work coleague was crossing Croatian-Hungarian border today for bussiness reasons with company car. He was held by Hungarian officers for cca 20 min there, had to show all possible car documentation, answer the questions about the place and reason where he was going to, let the officers to search the whole car, and had to make alcohol test :?


----------



## bogdymol

^^ I also drove on Monday from Austria to Hungary with company car. Nobody asked me anything. Would have been a problem if I would have been asked, as I had no proof of insurance with me (the car was insured, but the "green card" part was not received yet from the insurance company).


----------



## Eulanthe

Corvinus said:


> Debeli Brijeg (MNE) -> Karasovići (HR), which is the main crossing between the two countries along the Adriatic road (E65)


The border line is at the end of the concrete area as far as I remember. I think there was some sort of guard structure here when the border was closed. However, the "no mans land" is actually sort-of the case - no military forces are permitted within 5km of the border there, only civilian police.

That "no mans land" area used to be notorious for duty free shops - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk_KyioEJ9c - how the scam worked was that large amouts of cigarettes were "sold" there, but in reality, they never went there. They were produced in factories in Montenegro and smuggled to BiH/Croatia/beyond. 

There's an article here about them - https://www.occrp.org/index.php/en/projects/tobacco-project/30-regional-stories/56-duty-free-highway

As an interesting note about this crossing: I asked a guy in Igalo (the tour guide of Tito's villa there!) last year about what it was like in the 1990's, and he said that it was a bit of a joke. They couldn't go to Croatia via the main road, so the only way to get there was to go over to the Republika Srpska (the border was more or less always open) to Trebinje, then they could go to Dubrovnik by bribing both RS and HR border guards to let them pass. The main road wasn't destroyed or anything, and it was possible to travel there even between 1992-1995, but because of how sensitive it was, it was better to go via Trebinje as the RS military were much more corrupt and willing to turn a blind eye for a few DM.


----------



## BL2

Eulanthe said:


> As an interesting note about this crossing: I asked a guy in Igalo (the tour guide of Tito's villa there!) last year about what it was like in the 1990's, and he said that it was a bit of a joke. They couldn't go to Croatia via the main road, so the only way to get there was to go over to the Republika Srpska (the border was more or less always open) to Trebinje, then they could go to Dubrovnik by bribing *both RS* and HR border guards to let them pass. The main road wasn't destroyed or anything, and it was possible to travel there even between 1992-1995, but because of how sensitive it was, it was better to go via Trebinje *as the RS military were much more corrupt and willing to turn a blind eye for a few DM.*


how come they were MUCH MORE corrupt, meaning that RS military would let "them" pass, but Croatian military that was "MUCH LESS" corrupt would return them? It is the only way how there could be difference in corruption. 

BTW are you talking about period 1992-1995?


----------



## Eulanthe

BL2 said:


> how come they were MUCH MORE corrupt, meaning that RS military would let "them" pass, but Croatian military that was "MUCH LESS" corrupt would return them? It is the only way how there could be difference in corruption.
> 
> BTW are you talking about period 1992-1995?


This isn't about the Croatians, but about the federal Yugoslav forces. They were much more about keeping the border closed, whereas the RS forces were happy to let anyone pass for the right amount of cash. As for the Croatians, what the guys in Igalo said is that they had no problems with allowing people to cross if they paid the right amount of cash, but that they were much more nervous at Karasovici than at Brgat Gornji, so people from Montenegro preferred to go via Trebinje for that reason.

And yes, it was about the period after the ceasefire/withdrawal from Konavle by the Yugoslav forces.


----------



## Palance

AFAIK, Debeli Brijeg was not accessible anymore since september 1991 because of some sporadic fighting. And that was before the invasion of Konavle.


----------



## Suburbanist

The chaotic Brazil-Paraguay border in Foz do Iguaçu/Ciudad del Este (1600m long, 40m tall "Ponte da Amizade"). There is a new and wider bridge being built a few km away. The bridge is downstream from the major Itaipu hydropower dam.


----------



## trilobitas

Latvia – Lithuania border. 2019


----------



## Highway89

The 45th G7 summit will be held on the 24-26th of August, 2019, in Biarritz, France, a city about 20 km from the Spanish border near Irún/Hendaye. Several demonstrations are scheduled and it is expected that the border is closed. Add to this the following circumstances:

-Weekend
-People from Portugal and Morocco coming back to work to Western Europe after spending their holidays in their countries of origin.
-Tourists from Western Europe coming back to their countries after spending their holidays in Spain.

The Spanish traffic authorities recommends using the La Jonquera border crossing instead (AP-7/A9). Brochures are being given out to drivers at the main rest areas. : http://revista.dgt.es/es/noticias/n...Reunion-G7-y-alternativas-a-circulacion.shtml









In case the border is blocked, traffic will be forced to take detours (_puntos de desvío_) by the traffic police and trucks will be forced to park in some designated areas (_áreas de embolsamiento_).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That is good to know, I was planning on driving in that region from that weekend on. I was thinking about driving N-135 to Pamplona (coming from A64 from Toulouse).

Maybe I could delay my entry to Spain until the middle of the week by staying a day or two in the French Pyrenees. There are a couple of mountain passes in that area I would like to drive yet, including the Col du Tourmalet. 

I haven't really detailed my plans yet, usually I just go and change plans on the fly. I almost never complete a vacation as I had it thought out beforehand. :lol:


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## Highway89

Could this be the world's shortest international bridge? It's located between Spain and Portugal in El Marco: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1805843,-7.169305,450m/data=!3m1!1e3









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:MarcoElMarco.JPG

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/the-worlds-shortest-international-bridge-esperanca-portugal


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## alserrod

About E-F passes I reckon routes only for cars are because there is not enough capacity for all trucks.

E-P bridge... I had read but somewhere in centre Europe seems to have the same record


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## alserrod

One question, which was border suggested to avoid SLO-HR at Rupa?

Lipa-novokracine or Lisak-Susak?


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## Verso

^^ Lipa-Novokračine, there's no border crossing between Lisac and Sušak.


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## Eulanthe

Highway89 said:


> Could this be the world's shortest international bridge? It's located between Spain and Portugal in El Marco


I'm in Germany right now and the internet sucks, but I'm certain I've seen smaller between PL-CZ.


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## Attus

Czieszyn(PL) - Český Těšin(CS), 1960.










There is a set of six photos, you can see them paging left or right:
https://fortepan.hu/?language=en-US&image_id=178670


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## alserrod

Let's chat about some more border crossings....

I-SLO at Pesek

I was really looking for borderstone
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.623...4!1stKZuYeide1p2QDpZofWY_g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I found it and could say where it was to my relatives. Shouldn't it, I guess I wouldn't pay attention to border. I stopped just away for a while and wouldn't had known I was in Slovenia


SLO-HR
Starod-Pasjak

Coming from Slovenia, three rows. One for only EU+ passports. Other one for all passports and last one for trucks and buses. Cars where divided in two lanes. I adviced ALL cars had EU plates thus it didn't matter which queue they had.
A fast glance to passport by a Slovenian officer and go through. I went to Croatian side and it was empty.

Why Croatian side was empty???. Did it mean they know Slovenia will check at all their borders because Schengen and they focus in other corners?

Some days later... let's return for a 1 day visit
To avoid queues.... Lipa border crossing.

DOES ANYONE HAVE CROSSED IN THAT POINT BEFORE?
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.481...4!1stXKCVM5JVqLsR1cCf66Fzw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

In the previous road it is not pointed at all
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.473...4!1snMCF5SmOVVvinET1WS-ZsA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I didn't cross any car in the whole traject cross-cross in HR-SLO for all the time. How many cars do they cross there?

I arrived and barrier was down. Right, booth for Croatian officers, empty again. Left, Slovenian officers. They made me a signal I had to go there (they wouldn't stand up and go to the car)
I went with all passports. Two officers there waiting for next car and it was only me. They asked me where I would go. It was to a near destination but... what about if I say I wanted to return home?. They only way was through that corner. They had the time to make those fast questions to check why I had chosen that pass (and I wonder if some cameras recorded my traject in Slovenia!!)
And... they took two passports and entered them in a scan machine. I though they accepted only EU+ passports because no way to know if you were allowed to cross border without those passports... but they had enough technology to check them.

Again, should I had showed just ID cards, what they had done?. They cannot be scanned. They are strongly harder to fake them but they wouldn't have a program to scan them


Back to Croatia

Rupa border

I wondered for how long I would wait in the border and it was really fast. Road in Slovenia was again divided in three queues, one for EU+, other for all passports and finally for buses and trucks.

Slovenian officer just glanced driver passport. Croatian officer seemed to be very fast, she glanced all passports and focused more in driver's one. It seemed they had been trained to make random fast checks


Finally, HR-SLO in Pasjak. I was wondering to use a different one but I was recommended to go through there because there wasn't many traffic so early. It was true.
Like before... no Croatian control, 3 lanes in Slovenia.

This is, I crossed 4 times a border and I just saw Croatian officers in Rupa.
Is there a reason?


Pesek border SLO-I, nothing new... well, direction Italy it is more clear you have crossed a border


----------



## tfd543

One thing that puzzles me is why I had to go through security twice when I flew from Skopje to Warsaw and then to Copenhagen ? Sure I can understand the entry of EU and Schengen and an additional Security check might had been introduced, but why was it the same case when I flew from Malaga to Berlin and then to Copenhagen ? Believe it or not, I had a Security check in Malaga of course but also again in Berlin. Strange.


----------



## alserrod

Security control or passport control?

For security, only major airports have transit areas, thus no need to cross again. 

But even if national flights, almost all of them make you getting off and on from terminal


----------



## tfd543

alserrod said:


> Security control or passport control?
> 
> For security, only major airports have transit areas, thus no need to cross again.
> 
> But even if national flights, almost all of them make you getting off and on from terminal




Security pal. So stupid and time-consuming. Yes I looked around in Warsaw and Berlin but to No avail. The path directed me straight to a new Security control. I remember in Prague you actually have the option to be in the transit area but not in the mentioned airports. Whats the point of it?


----------



## alserrod

I do not know those airports...but on part of them there's no such number of transit passengers, thus it doesn't worth... And main ones can have different terminals.

Anyway, that's related to airports, not border crossings.

You would had seen some airports with joined boarding gates. Passport control is just entering or taking out the gate.
You will never see an "extra " passport control


----------



## OulaL

Some airports sort arriving passengers according to their airport of origin. If an airport is "greylisted", that is, doesn't meet certain security requirements, then everyone coming from such an airport will be subjected to a new security check on transfering.

If this sorting has failed for some reason (or doesn't happen at all), then everyone arriving in the same part of a terminal than any single flight from a greylisted airport will be treated like they'd come from a greylisted airport themselves.


----------



## MattiG

italystf said:


> I don't think that all minor intra-Schengen border crossings are video-surveilled, though.


The reality might surprise. Most countries want to control their borders. Usually, the control is invisible but not nonexistent. This applies to both the border stations and the border line.


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> At least Finland has them all. That is easy to say because the borders mostly follow rivers, and the rest are located in remote wilderness with practically no alternative routes.


Every meter of the border line is under surveillance, even in the wilderness. Hidden cameras, sensors, radars, etc.


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> I know they’re not comparable to states, but many Europeans seem to think they are, or should be.
> But just as a practical matter, I have told American friends that “crossing national borders in most of Europe these days is like crossing a state line here.” I had no idea about the surveillance.


Just remember there's no common police in Europe. With Schengen, countries can agree other officers to cross their borders some km... After that, there are someones who wanna control all, other ones who do not care (and Iceland does not worry, everyone is in a passenger list)


----------



## 54°26′S 3°24′E

^^ In the case of Norway / EU, there is still a custom border.


MattiG said:


> Every meter of the border line is under surveillance, even in the wilderness. Hidden cameras, sensors, radars, etc.


Wow, Finland has always been a bit more suspicious ;-) As far as I know, Norway just recently started to have camera surveilance on all driveable roads leading in or out of the country.


----------



## MattiG

54°26′S 3°24′E;161828020 said:


> ^^ In the case of Norway / EU, there is still a custom border.
> 
> Wow, Finland has always been a bit more suspicious ;-) As far as I know, Norway just recently started to have camera surveilance on all driveable roads leading in or out of the country.


Better not to believe those ones claiming Norway is not in. Most of the 700+ km of the border line is located in the wilderness nobody lives in. The surveillance is easy, because anyone moving there is an exception. In the pre-Schengen time, it was almost 100% probability to get a fine if crossing the border where it was not allowed. The border control patrols appeared pretty quickly, either from Norway or Finland.

Even in the Schengen time, there are some constraints in place: Dogs and cats must have a passport at the N-S-FIN borders because Finland and Norway try to keep their Echinococcosis-free status. Using snowscooters is more strictly regulated in Norway than in Finland. Making a short visit in Norway might cause heavy fines. The newspapers have reported about fines of 1000-1500 euros.


----------



## Alex_ZR

When was passport control between Liechtenstein and Austria abolished? In 2008 when Switzerland joined Schengen?


----------



## MichiH

Alex_ZR said:


> When was passport control between Liechtenstein and Austria abolished? In 2008 when Switzerland joined Schengen?


No, in 2011 when Liechtenstein joined Schengen.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenz...nd_Österreich#Grenzübertritt_und_Grenzverkehr


----------



## 54°26′S 3°24′E

MattiG said:


> Better not to believe those ones claiming Norway is not in. Most of the 700+ km of the border line is located in the wilderness nobody lives in. The surveillance is easy, because anyone moving there is an exception. In the pre-Schengen time, it was almost 100% probability to get a fine if crossing the border where it was not allowed. The border control patrols appeared pretty quickly, either from Norway or Finland.


Not too familiar with the SF-N border, tbh, and was not aware that crossing away from official crossings was not allowed before. With regards to S-N, there are quite a few places where there are periods of considerable cross-border pedestrian, skiing or maritime traffic far away from public roads.


----------



## Alex_ZR

MichiH said:


> No, in 2011 when Liechtenstein joined Schengen.
> 
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenz...nd_Österreich#Grenzübertritt_und_Grenzverkehr


But if Switzerland and Liechtenstein had no border control long time before, how did they check the border 2008-2011?


----------



## Suburbanist

Alex_ZR said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, in 2011 when Liechtenstein joined Schengen.
> 
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenz...nd_Österreich#Grenzübertritt_und_Grenzverkehr
> 
> 
> 
> But if Switzerland and Liechtenstein had no border control long time before, how did they check the border 2008-2011?
Click to expand...

 there were Austria - Liechtesntein checks on the Austrian side.


----------



## Corvinus

MichiH said:


> No, in 2011 when Liechtenstein joined Schengen.
> 
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenz...nd_Österreich#Grenzübertritt_und_Grenzverkehr


The sign at the FL -> A border asking travelers to have their documents ready was still around in precisely 2011, when I posted this photo taken back then (my, how time flies!)

It's true however that there was this brief period of CH being a Schengen member and FL not. Strictly speaking, the Schengen treaty would have then required to install systematic ID controls at the CH/FL border - which have never before been in place. Given the small size of FL, the absence of international airports or seaports and its location - being entirely surrounded by Schengen countries -, the CH/FL border received some sort of exemption. And then FL joined Schengen too and this question became obsolete.



Corvinus said:


> *2. Liechtenstein -> Austria * (Schaanwald -> Feldkirch)
> Notice the sign asking to prepare passport for Austrian customs.


----------



## Verso

Alex_ZR said:


> But if Switzerland and Liechtenstein had no border control long time before, how did they check the border 2008-2011?


The Swiss installed cameras on their border with Liechtenstein in 2008.


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> Just remember there's no common police in Europe. With Schengen, countries can agree other officers to cross their borders some km... After that, there are someones who wanna control all, other ones who do not care (and Iceland does not worry, everyone is in a passenger list)


There is an agreement between Italy and Slovenia that allows police to chase criminals into the other country up to 30 km from the border. Immediate communication to police of the other country is required.
It happened a couple of times that Slovenian police chased human traffikers (migrant smugglers) from the border to central Trieste and then the Italian police arrest them,


----------



## alserrod

italystf said:


> There is an agreement between Italy and Slovenia that allows police to chase criminals into the other country up to 30 km from the border. Immediate communication to police of the other country is required.
> It happened a couple of times that Slovenian police chased human traffikers (migrant smugglers) from the border to central Trieste and then the Italian police arrest them,


I know them... but they aren't global police, just agreements to work on border areas

BTW, Spain and France allow their forcer to entry for 25 km and Spain and Portugal for 40 km (or was it conversely???)


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## bogdymol

That is part of the Schengen agreement. The police force of one country can enter the neighboring country for a certain distance (20-30 km), if they are chasing any bad guys. However, they must immediately inform the local police.

This is because in Schengen area it is easy to cross the border as there are no checks, so if you a bad guy is chased, without this rule, he could easily escape the police by just crossing the border.

Many years ago, when Romania was still hoping to join Schengen, I took part in an exercise between the police forces of Romania and Hungary, involving a cross-border chase. Interesting experience.


----------



## Verso

bogdymol said:


> Many years ago, when Romania was still hoping to join Schengen, I took part in an exercise between the police forces of Romania and Hungary, involving a cross-border chase. Interesting experience.


Were you the bad guy? :lol:


----------



## bogdymol

No, I was in the car right behind.


----------



## italystf

How can a cross-border chase be possible at the Hungarian-Romanian border? As there are still border checkpoints on that border, the fugitive would have been stopped right at the border.


----------



## Verso

^ It was an exercise when Romania was preparing to join the Schengen Area. You can't join it unprepared.


----------



## MrAkumana

OulaL said:


> At least Finland has them all. That is easy to say because the borders mostly follow rivers, and the rest are located in remote wilderness with practically no alternative routes.


Finland is indeed quite extreme with the video surveliance of its border crossings with fellow EU member Sweeden. I was suprised to find cameras even on this minor city street crossing at Tornio: https://goo.gl/maps/72vjXDAZXYFJBEtZ8
(and the photo on street view is quite old, there were larger cameras when I drove there some years ago. I remember feeling that it was a bit too much for such a remote and peaceful place... ). 

On the rest of Europe that kind of minor streets are usually not controled at all. Just maybe a police car dropping by some hours once a week (slightly more at some places). This is my opinion from my experiences driving thousands of kms across Europe through the years

I now live on the catalan region of Spain and I think it’s a good example of what happens on average across the continent: it has 12 paved roads that connect with France (not counting the ones at enclave/divided towns such as Perthus and Llivia). 6 of them have cameras and are under video surveliance, the other 6 (minor local roads all of them) don’t have cameras at all.

The situation on urban or semi urban areas such as Puigcerda is quite crazy by the way: just 2 out of 5 paved crossings have cameras and they are placed so far from the actual border that cars that go to buidings and houses on Spain and don’t cross the border at all get recorded anyway... but people that enter or leave the main road from minor streets after/before cameras don’t get reacorded whatsoever… Weird decision making.


----------



## Eulanthe

Alex_ZR said:


> But if Switzerland and Liechtenstein had no border control long time before, how did they check the border 2008-2011?


Cameras, but also through some other agreements such as FL agreeing not to allow helicopter flights from non-Schengen countries. However, as the Swiss were already controlling the FL-A border, they were able to pull aside anyone who might have been planning to go from FL to CH. In reverse, FL was never going to be much of a problem when it came to people fleeing Schengen for whatever reason. 

Liechtenstein only had their own border guard for a short period between 1919-1923, and since then, the Swiss were responsible for their border security anyway. So it was really more of a theoretical problem than a real one.



Penn's Woods said:


> To what extent are intra-Schengen border crossings even tracked?


Depends very much on the country. For instance, there are a huge amount of crossings between CZ and neighbouring countries, and they aren't tracked. This was the case even before Schengen, as the Czech Republic had a huge amount of tourist border crossings where police could be present, but it was common for them to only be there part of the time, or even not at all. 

To give an example: there was a border crossing between PL-CZ at the Śląski Dom in the Karkonosze Mountains. This crossing was controlled by the border guards based in the Dom Śląski until 2005, but they also had responsibility for other crossings and in particular, the top of Sniezka mountain (where border crossings were prohibited). In practice, it was very rare to see actual border control there after 1991. Most controls were about stopping people from crossing at unapproved crossing points, rather than actually about identity/customs checks. 

On the other hand, you have countries like Finland where everything is monitored. 

Of course, there are many random controls - I was stopped once at 10pm at night at a tiny border crossing by the Polish border guard, who wanted to know if I'd seen anything suspicious on the Czech side of the border. You'll also see Customs controls in places like Cieszyn, as it's very easy to buy drugs on the Czech side of the border.

For me, the most surprising thing in Europe today is the Andorran border and how it's still subject to full border control. I wonder why they've never moved towards joining Schengen?


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> However, as the Swiss were already controlling the FL-A border, they were able to pull aside anyone who might have been planning to go from FL to CH.


Then again, crossing the A-FL border was pretty much like crossing the A-CH border, so I doubt there were many criminals trying to get from Austria to Switzerland through Liechtenstein.


----------



## OulaL

> Finland is indeed quite extreme with the video surveliance of its border crossings with fellow EU member Sweeden. I was suprised to find cameras even on this minor city street crossing at Tornio


There are no more than three crossings for cars in Tornio: the other two are E4 and a small road which most importantly serves a golf club. So it's not a big deal to have them all supervised. As you can see in the picture, most of the border goes in water anyway.

Interestingly, the two cities have a shared bus station (which would be seen in your picture if it had existed in 2009), located on Swedish territory.


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> Interestingly, the two cities have a shared bus station (which would be seen in your picture if it had existed in 2009), located on Swedish territory.


This has certain interesting legal implications. For example, bus trips in Finland beginning or ending at the Tornio bus station, are free of VAT due to the EU VAT system because they are international traffic.

The Towns of Tornio and Haparanda have planned a shared local bus traffic. The VAT rate for the public transport is 10% in Finland and 6% in Sweden. A shared bus would need to charge three different VATs: 10% in Finland, 6% in Sweden and 0% if crossing the border.

A bus traveler with a cat or a dog cannot travel from Finland to Tornio bus station if the animals have no pet passports. The same applies to soldiers in a uniform. Better to leave the bus at the last stop before the border.


----------



## italystf

MattiG said:


> This has certain interesting legal implications. For example, bus trips in Finland beginning or ending at the Tornio bus station, are free of VAT due to the EU VAT system because they are international traffic.
> 
> The Towns of Tornio and Haparanda have planned a shared local bus traffic. The VAT rate for the public transport is 10% in Finland and 6% in Sweden. A shared bus would need to charge three different VATs: 10% in Finland, 6% in Sweden and 0% if crossing the border.
> 
> A bus traveler with a cat or a dog cannot travel from Finland to Tornio bus station if the animals have no pet passports. The same applies to soldiers in a uniform. Better to leave the bus at the last stop before the border.


I'd like to see a similar integration between Gorizia and Nova Gorica. That would be even easier, as the currency and the time zone are the same.


----------



## alserrod

White pannel with blue text is final San Sebastian metric line.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.352...4!1sXqBfDtTtxRkhkvfsS-ho7A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

It is located in front of main Hendaye railway station and, for just one station it is international. French police can make a check when getting out the station (it is a single track line and a two platforms stations, not big at all). Spanish police can just make controls in the last station.

I remember, before Euro, all prices were in pesetas (you cannot make a journey within France)



Canfranc estacion
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.751...4!1sFCpbQHBEBjTL9ZzW3UIOLg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Besides "P" signal you have an Aquitaine transport signal. It is a bus service managed by SNCF that shuttles Canfranc and Bedous and links with trains to Pau. It is not possible to make a journey in Spain. Since tunnel was build, they come from Bedous-Urdos-Tunnel-Canfranc (call)-Somport (summit, France 10 metres after border) and ski resort just 500m ahead... thus no Spanish journeys. It crosses twice a border.

All prices are SNCF fares. May you have a discount they will apply it (in my homecity a lot of young people took a train to Canfranc for interrail because that bus is included within French railways, thus for free).
In this case, French taxes and before euro, only francs


----------



## abdeka

*Algeria - Tunisia* border a few days after the summer rush.

According to some sources, the Oum Tboul border crossing became Africa's busiest terrestrial border crossing.

Algerian side












Tunisian side


----------



## Corvinus

... and back to European borders, here's Gorica (BIH) -> Imotski (HR) from this Summer:


1. The usual Carina/Douane at 250m from crossing











2. 











3. 











4.


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## Eulanthe

Interesting - that's the first time I've seen an advert for the VAT return on BiH borders. It was a common thing before 2013 in Croatia, but BiH has been really slow to understand the "shopping tourism" benefits with the exception of petrol and cigarettes.


----------



## Eulanthe

I've found what appears to be the old Yugoslavian border crossing with Croatia at Debeli Brijeg - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DniAa1-w4l8 - there's also a shot of the Croatian border crossing too. 

I'm almost certain this is taken from the period when the border was closed, though unfortunately the date isn't given. I think the Yugoslav guards are located at this point - https://youtu.be/LdfSxPtVEho?t=185 - but I can't be 100% sure.

Also, a video here - https://youtu.be/hXTwDFFhSMU?t=86 - showing what appears to be a border crossing on the side of the SAO Eastern Slavonia, Baranja and Western Syrmia near Osijek.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Nakovo (SRB) - Lunga (RO) border crossing:

Leaving Serbia










Entering Romania










On the way back, leaving Romania










Entering Serbia



















Serbian border crossing got refurbished recently, in the same time as the bicycle path from Kikinda was built (8 km). There is a plan to extend working time from 7-19 to 0-24 and also to allow buses and trucks to cross the border here.


----------



## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> Interesting - that's the first time I've seen an advert for the VAT return on BiH borders. It was a common thing before 2013 in Croatia, but BiH has been really slow to understand the "shopping tourism" benefits with the exception of petrol and cigarettes.



I reckon it will never worth (another issue is, you can go for another affair and you get the chance to buy those goods).
I remember nearest petrol station in Andorra is just 13 km away from a road-cross in Spain with a petrol station. That petrol station sells a lot of fuel, obviously more expensive but... does it worth to take a time and cross twice a congested border only for fuel? How much will you save?. Cigarrettes are quite cheaper but you can buy only 200 per day (few ones if you live in surroundings). May you buy more, it is smuggling.

Coming back to VAT refund, I always see great stores that advices they will deal for you VAT refund if you ask. It is possible but a really nightmare. A mate living in Canary islands (they do not pay VAT but a local tax) told me it only worth if it is a huge amount. They have to pay a fee to a dealer who will manage all, have to pay local taxes and later, asking for VAT refund. It is a nightmare, and first, you may pay taxes twice and later asking refund
(I guess, the only exemption is for a car bought in mainland and moved there. It is possible to have a plate for 15 days within national territory and asking a plate in the islands paying local taxes. I know one person who did it).


----------



## Verso

When did Serbia raise the speed limit on motorways from 120 to 130 km/h?


----------



## keokiracer

Verso said:


> When did Serbia raise the speed limit on motorways from 120 to 130 km/h?


June 1st 2018.


----------



## Eulanthe

This is the border between Croatia and the Republic of Serbian Krajina in January 1992, in Turanj - a suburb of Karlovac. The RSK had been declared in December 1991, so this can be considered a de facto border crossing, although one that was far too dangerous to attempt crossing by anyone. 

I believe that the front line in the war was changed a few months after this - so that the RSK-held territory still ended on the other side of the bridge, but Croatian forces withdrew to the other end of the town.

Same view today - http://tiny.cc/2epkcz

edit: This may also show the border crossing between Croatia and the UN neutral zone in 1994, but I'm really not sure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt6-GiSmeSY


----------



## tfd543

Wow. Very nice Eulanthe. Where were the guards stationed? Just like on the muddy road? Where was that UN neutral zone in 1994. Around Karlovac or are we talking about Vukovar ?


----------



## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> Wow. Very nice Eulanthe. Where were the guards stationed? Just like on the muddy road? Where was that UN neutral zone in 1994. Around Karlovac or are we talking about Vukovar ?


So, this is my understanding, but I'm very much open to correction (ex-Yugo friends, help ) 

In this picture, you can see the Croatian soldiers standing guard at the entrance to the bridge, in front of the <<< sign. Whether there were any actual police/customs there is another question - I know (armed) Croatian police were defending Croat positions during 1990-1991 (the Log Revolution) against the SAO Krajina  - but I'm not sure what was happening later on once the war really started in April 1991. 

The UN netural zone in 1994 was 2km wide, based on the positions held as of 21 June 1992. As far as I understand, it was never really fixed (unlike in Cyprus, for instance) - both the Republic of Croatia and the Republic of Serbian Krajina forces would attack/counter-attack at different points, so the border was always changing.

That 1994 video is at Turanj (same place as the picture above), which, just to add to the madness - was the self-proclaimed "Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia" - a Bosniak state allied to Serbia (and Croatia for a time before the Washington Agreement that ended the war between the Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina and the Republic of Herceg-Bosna). I can't tell when the video is from, but it's possible that it shows the situation when people fled the Autonomous Province after the RBiH attack in 1994, which would explain why Croatia was refusing to let them in as Croatia was demanding visas/passports from people living in the territory of the pre-war Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina. 

The UN also conducted border controls in both directions, so if someone was crazy enough to cross there, they could.


----------



## Eulanthe

Another historic video: this time, the border crossing at Izačić / Ličko Petrovo Selo. It's from the 7th August 1995, so I think this is showing the border between the Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina and the Republic of Croatia, as the RSK no longer controlled the other side of the border. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0nIXjP1gs8

Annoyingly, I've found a picture showing the border from the other side, but I can't share it here as it's not allowed to.


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## tfd543

Cool stuff. I love it.


----------



## Eulanthe

There's another video here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWqKmVlNI5E 

I'm also not sure about this, but I think this first shows the UN-controlled border crossing on the RSK-RBiH border at Izačić / Ličko Petrovo Selo (probably, there were RSK controls behind the camera...), then it shows the RBiH controls during wartime. 

This one is particularly interesting - https://youtu.be/TIati6qGyIM?t=320 

If you look from 5:20 in the video, it shows the Croatian border crossing at Slavonski Brod in 1992, which is this spot today - http://tiny.cc/skpocz


----------



## Eulanthe

And some more - this time, the crossing between the Republic of Croatia and the Republic of Srpska Krajina at Otočac - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHUddAd5O-M - footage of the border starts about 2:30 into the video. There's also a very brief glimpse of the barriers used to stop people before reaching the front line, too.


----------



## tfd543

The very first was incredible. Looks like a hostage release, right? It must have been their happiest day of their live. Especially that moment when they came out of the Van. Freedom to all people man.


----------



## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> The very first was incredible. Looks like a hostage release, right? It must have been their happiest day of their live. Especially that moment when they came out of the Van. Freedom to all people man.


Yes, it was a prisoner exchange. They were quite common during the wars there, though I suspect understanding each other helped a lot.

I found a longer version of the video that shows the border crossing in more detail here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9UA0RB5yI0


----------



## Eulanthe

Another video - this time, showing the border crossing between the Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina and the Republika Srpska in Sarajevo, at the 'Bridge of Brotherhood and Unity'. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeLjIxc369U

This was declared as an official border crossing by the Republika Srpska in 1994 (I believe?), with signs erected by them saying "Border Crossing" and "New Sarajevo". It operated from 1993-1996, and was only abolished when the Grbavica area was transferred to the Federation of Bosnia-Hercegovina. Between the opening in 1993 and the 1st February 1996, it operated on the basis that lists of residents would be passed between the two sides, and after agreement, people could visit 'the other side'. During February 1996, you could move without prior permission, but you still had to pass checkpoints on either side of the bridge. 

As far as I know, while the RBiH (and later FBiH) forces never saw it as anything other than a military checkpoint, it operated as a normal border crossing by the Republika Srpska, even down to having customs formalities and obligatory presentation of an ID/passport. 

In practice, it was limited to women, children and elderly men until after the Dayton Agreement was signed. 

This is how it looks today - https://bit.ly/2kfv5ns


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## Attus

https://fortepan.hu/?language=en-US&image_id=179529
I was sure it's Berlin but I did not find the location. Having spent several hours by searching now I know. It's Schützenstraße, and the crossing street is Friedrichstraße. The photographer, a well known Hungarian press photographer, wanted obviously make a photo of the border crossing, without photographing West Berlin. The famous border crossing Checkpoint Charlie is at the next corner, approximately fifty meters away to the right. The white Volkswagen and another white car are driving towards the crossing point, i.e. towards West Berlin. I suppose the buses and three cars (two Mercedes and a Ford) are somehow waiting for entering West Berlin but I am not sure. 
It's the late sixties or perhaps 1970.


----------



## tfd543

Eulanthe said:


> It operated from 1993-1996, and was only abolished when the Grbavica area was transferred to the Federation of Bosnia-Hercegovina. Between the opening in 1993 and the 1st February 1996, it operated on the basis that lists of residents would be passed between the two sides, and after agreement, people could visit 'the other side'. During February 1996, you could move without prior permission, but you still had to pass checkpoints on either side of the bridge.
> 
> 
> This is how it looks today - https://bit.ly/2kfv5ns



How could it operate in 1996 when the Dayton agreement was signed in Nov 1995 ? Was it just because it had not take full effect yet.


----------



## mgk920

Attus said:


> https://fortepan.hu/?language=en-US&image_id=179529
> I was sure it's Berlin but I did not find the location. Having spent several hours by searching now I know. It's Schützenstraße, and the crossing street is Friedrichstraße. The photographer, a well known Hungarian press photographer, wanted obviously make a photo of the border crossing, without photographing West Berlin. The famous border crossing Checkpoint Charlie is at the next corner, approximately fifty meters away to the right. The white Volkswagen and another white car are driving towards the crossing point, i.e. towards West Berlin. I suppose the buses and three cars (two Mercedes and a Ford) are somehow waiting for entering West Berlin but I am not sure.
> It's the late sixties or perhaps 1970.


This image is looking eastward on Schützenstraße from a building that overlooks a 'T' intersection where that street ends. Interestingly, that diagonal street that Schützenstraße ends at that is mostly cut off in the image in the foreground is called 'Mauerstraße' ('Wall Street'). That street might have been renamed from something else after the reunification, though.

https://goo.gl/maps/jqz5fcZ2gX1YcEwb6

The border in that area was the south right-of-way line of Zimmerstraße, one block south (to the right in the image) of Schützenstraße and aside from a narrow corridor next to the physical Wall that allowed access to the buildings on the south side of the street, the entire width of Zimmerstraße was the no-mans' land death strip.

A small part of that image was in West Berlin - between those two buildings on the right a portion of the Wall on Zimmerstraße and several buildings in West Berlin are visible.

Mike


----------



## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> How could it operate in 1996 when the Dayton agreement was signed in Nov 1995 ? Was it just because it had not take full effect yet.


Yes, Dayton didn't come fully into effect until the end of 1997, while on a practical level, it was more or less in effect from the end of March 1996. In the first few weeks after Dayton, there were many official and unofficial checkpoints, though I believe this specific one was operated as a police/customs checkpoint (on the RS side) once the ARBiH and VRS pulled back from the frontline.

I wonder if the Republika Srpska set up similar border crossings elsewhere? This one is well known, but I wonder if there were others, such as next to the airport?


----------



## Eulanthe

So, to answer my own question: near the airport, there was the so-called "Blue Routes" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89OA3PXz3rU

As I understand it, there were two routes next to the airport. One route connected Sarajevo to other territory under the control of RBiH forces, while the other route connected (I think...) Ilidža to Lukavica and other territory under the control of the Republika Srpska. The UN would alternately open the routes, and they would conduct very strict border-like controls.

This video shows the controls, including cars being examined with mirrors.


----------



## tfd543

But No passport control? And Who could pass ? Anybody with a specific reason to cross ?


----------



## Chia021

Hi crossed accidentally the border between Swiss and France at 30km/hr (did not see the limit drop from 70 to 10 until too late) and a sign flashed and said I was over the speed limit and would lose 2 points. My car is registered in germany. Does anyone has any experience of how this works? Will I get fined? Will I get points in my German license.

Feels a bit unfair as everyone else seemed to be going far faster than me (probably didn't see the speed limit sign as well) but I only saw the sign flash for me.


----------



## lampsakos21

Chia021 said:


> Hi crossed accidentally the border between Swiss and France at 30km/hr (did not see the limit drop from 70 to 10 until too late) and a sign flashed and said I was over the speed limit and would lose 2 points. My car is registered in germany. Does anyone has any experience of how this works? Will I get fined? Will I get points in my German license.
> 
> 
> 
> Feels a bit unfair as everyone else seemed to be going far faster than me (probably didn't see the speed limit sign as well) but I only saw the sign flash for me.




Usually those kind of signs are just to warn the driver before entering a road section or an area that has a sepcific limit of speed .Even though we are talking about switzerland ( very peculiar country with laws and ways to implement them ) everything is possible. I really hope you didnt get fined , because in many other countries is just a warning sign .
I have found here this website
https://www.ch.ch/en/driving-over-speed-limit/ and this one in Particular :
https://www.fedpol.admin.ch/fedpol/en/home/polizei-zusammenarbeit/strassenverkehr.html and some i fos about the speed cameras 
https://newinzurich.com/2019/06/speeding-fines-in-switzerland-things-you-need-to-know/
I do t know what was that you have encountered but i really hope that is just a warning sign , since many locals were drinving faster than you


----------



## stickedy

Chia021 said:


> Hi crossed accidentally the border between Swiss and France at 30km/hr (did not see the limit drop from 70 to 10 until too late) and a sign flashed and said I was over the speed limit and would lose 2 points. My car is registered in germany. Does anyone has any experience of how this works? Will I get fined? Will I get points in my German license.
> 
> Feels a bit unfair as everyone else seemed to be going far faster than me (probably didn't see the speed limit sign as well) but I only saw the sign flash for me.


When you have been really caught for speeding, then the fine will get to address where the car is registered. Pretty much the same as when you get caught in Germany. You should pay since France and Switzerland will have the ability to enforce the penalty in Germany (if it is over 70 Euro - it will be in your case).

On the good side ist that neither a possible driving ban will get into force in Germany nor you will get points in Flensburg. It's "just" about the money...

But maybe it was just for warning and scaring...


----------



## alserrod

AFAIK...
If you do not pay, it will happen nothing... till you enter with a car in that country . 


AFAIK
In Spain, everyone is entitled to receive the fine and write against it... or just pay (50% discount if you pay within 15 days)
But AFAIK, if car adress is in another country, police is entitled to ask you to pay in that moment.
Paying (with 50% discount) means you are not going to disquarrel against fine. Just in case you have to pay in the moment, you are entitled.

I have a friend who was working in a small bank office in a small village but near a main road a long time ago.
He told me once police took a high-overspeeding car. Driver was foreing and he seemed to say "I do not understand, I do not understand...". Police wrote the fine, gave him and pointed the amount. He seemed to say "I do not bother" and police pointed him, no money, no car to drive.
Driver took other currency trying if it could help not to pay in that moment.
Police said no problem. They drove him in the patrol car to the bank and requested exchange currency giving in cash (not big bank notes) just to take accurate amount. The rest... for the driver.

My friend was really surprised. He knew that could happen from time to time but first time in his office. He just applied official exchange rate in the bank and official fee (and driver was lucky, that bank had the best fee in the share)


----------



## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> But No passport control? And Who could pass ? Anybody with a specific reason to cross ?


I'm still researching this, but so far:

There was no identity controls, as the roads were technically transit roads and not de facto international. Only customs controls were carried out, with the intention of preventing arms being smuggled, and because part of the deal with the Bosnian Serbs was that the route wouldn't be used for military purpose. 

Who could pass - between Serb-held territories, anyone. Likewise, anyone could get into Sarajevo, but you needed permission to leave - in practice, any men capable of fighting would be prohibited from leaving without permission from the Bosnian Army, though there was a lot of corruption over the documents required. 

Some more footage here showing a checkpoint on the edge of the city: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQtzGjDPhUE 

And some more nearby: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViIcZm3hv9g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcDfVWRYYx4 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSiQ26gXrGs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZSJ-X7cr3o

This last one is interesting, because it shows how the UN were controlling these checkpoints, including using metal detectors on people. 

There's also a view of what appears to be a Republika Srpska checkpoint in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-dZESi9XWo


----------



## stickedy

alserrod said:


> AFAIK...
> If you do not pay, it will happen nothing... till you enter with a car in that country .


No, that times are over since some years. Violation of traffic regulations will now be enforced in most EU countries. And Germany and Switzerland also have a contract for that.


----------



## verreme

Chia021 said:


> Hi crossed accidentally the border between Swiss and France at 30km/hr (did not see the limit drop from 70 to 10 until too late) and a sign flashed and said I was over the speed limit and would lose 2 points. My car is registered in germany. Does anyone has any experience of how this works? Will I get fined? Will I get points in my German license.
> 
> Feels a bit unfair as everyone else seemed to be going far faster than me (probably didn't see the speed limit sign as well) but I only saw the sign flash for me.


It looks like you saw one of these signs that show your speed and how many points you'd lose should you be caught by an actual speed camera. Don't worry, you're not getting a fine.


----------



## Eulanthe

More Yugoslav War border crossings, this time near Vitez:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9ALHhxJZzM (from 1:38)

This shows Croat police and the RBiH Army conducting controls along with the UN. I think this was on the border with the Republika Srpska, and the video shows how a petrol station was transformed into a checkpoint.

And another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQWHuABbVgM - this time from the border of Croatia and the RSK near Otocac.

And yet another, a video I can't make sense of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D266K6uEWoM

As far as I can tell, this is showing the border between Croatia and the Republic of Serbian Krajina, but there are ordinary police and customs officers present, so it doesn't make any sense to me. Anyone got any ideas of where this could be?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D266K6uEWoM - and this the bridge at Gradiska, showing the border crossing between Croatia and the Republika Srpska.


----------



## Palance

Eulanthe said:


> And yet another, a video I can't make sense of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D266K6uEWoM
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D266K6uEWoM - and this the bridge at Gradiska,


That is the same video.


----------



## Eulanthe

Palance said:


> That is the same video.


Oops 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SubV6XYbew is the right one.

And viewed from the Republika Srpska - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmJFCqxciKg


----------



## piotr71

Is it 24/7 crossing?


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## tfd543

piotr71 said:


> Is it 24/7 crossing?




Nope. 7-19 every day and only for SRB and EU/EEA citizens.


----------



## Palance

Hoek van Holland, NL. Here arrives the ferry from Harwich, UK (location)

Some signs for traffic coming from the ferry:




























Amsterdam, follow Rotterdam










And for traffic travelling to Harwich: a sign for England.


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## Kpc21

It's nice they included a "local patriotism" element (a windmill) in their built-up area signs.


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## Alex_ZR

Alex_ZR said:


> The 9th road border crossing between Serbia and Hungary has been opened today by their foreign ministers:
> 
> Rabe (SRB) - Kübekházá (H)


----------



## Proof Sheet

This seems really fishy

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/uk-tourists-arrested-entering-us-illegally-1.5321656


----------



## Penn's Woods

Proof Sheet said:


> This seems really fishy
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/uk-tourists-arrested-entering-us-illegally-1.5321656




Yeah, how “frigid” can anything in Berks County, Pa., be right now? I’m trusting U.S. Immigration on this one. Why wouldn’t Canada let them back in?


----------



## Corvinus

Just for comparison ... in September 2015, the day Hungary closed the Schengen external border with Serbia, Syrian national Ahmed H., a legal resident of Cyprus (thus *not* a refugee) was right there and, using a loudspeaker, incited other would-be illegals to force the border and resort to violence in order to enter illegally. He was arrested in Hungary and later faced - among others - charges of terrorism. 

Some nut of the Obama administration (just right before Trump took office) then expressed "worries" about the legal proceedings concerning Ahmed H. and said that feedback from "NGOs involved" should be considered. The Hungarian government swiftly refuted this interference as "unacceptable", stating that in Hungary, it is the independent court that's in charge for dealing with such criminals, and not "NGOs involved" of any sort. 

A few weeks ago Ahmed H. was released from jail and deported to Cyprus.


----------



## kokomo

Alex_ZR said:


> Interesting fact is that this crossing is located at the tripoint of Serbia, Hungary and Romania. However, Romania isn't involved in this project.


Could it be that relationship between Hungary and Romania is a bit sour perhaps?


----------



## SeanT

Corvinus said:


> Just for comparison ... in September 2015, the day Hungary closed the Schengen external border with Serbia, Syrian national Ahmed H., a legal resident of Cyprus (thus *not* a refugee) was right there and, using a loudspeaker, incited other would-be illegals to force the border and resort to violence in order to enter illegally. He was arrested in Hungary and later faced - among others - charges of terrorism.
> 
> Some nut of the Obama administration (just right before Trump took office) then expressed "worries" about the legal proceedings concerning Ahmed H. and said that feedback from "NGOs involved" should be considered. The Hungarian government swiftly refuted this interference as "unacceptable", stating that in Hungary, it is the independent court that's in charge for dealing with such criminals, and not "NGOs involved" of any sort.
> 
> A few weeks ago Ahmed H. was released from jail and deported to Cyprus.


... WORRIES towards Ahmed H's wellbeing. Strange but, when he was set free there was not a single country who would take this person in. Not even Cyprus at the beginning. (who could blame them).


----------



## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> Nope. 7-19 every day and only for SRB and EU/EEA citizens.


It's surprisingly of poor standard for a non-EU border crossing. I'd expect to see something like this on a locals-only crossing, not on a full intrastate crossing between the EU and a third country. 

Still, this makes a complete mockery of the Polish government's claims that non-EU border crossings have to be large and expensive facilities. 

https://allegro.pl/oferta/prl-swiecko-przejscie-graniczne-1971-55-8600533560

An interesting look at how road travellers were processed between the People's Republic of Poland and East Germany in 1971. As far as I understand it, it was obligatory to leave your car and go through this interior check.


----------



## alserrod

Just a question.

Are there any internal controls from Bratislava to Vienna?


----------



## eucitizen

alserrod said:


> Just a question.
> 
> Are there any internal controls from Bratislava to Vienna?


Sometimes there are.


----------



## Highway89

This is the border crossing between France and Spain along one of the branches of the Way of St. James pilgrimage route.

This is located between Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port (F) and the Orreaga/Roncesvalles monastery (E).

This the first of the border stones you come across. There was a French guy from the East of France (Pierre Henry) who was taking pictures of the border stones. He had been visiting other places of the French-Spanish border, including the Pheasant Island and the enclave of Llívia. It was him who warned me that this was the actual border, and he was kind enough to take a picture of me next to it (I used the Clone Stamp tool to erase myself from the photo)



Looking towards France.



The first Spanish sign you come across. It warns people that this route is closed between November and March due to the bad weather.


You have to walk along the border for some metres -actually, you're still technically in France because the border stones are to the right. Then you find this sign meaning that you're entering the region of Navarre. 


Historically, Saint Jean Pied-de-Port was part of Navarre too, until 1512: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Navarre

I could find the coat of arms of the kingdom of Navarre in the city walls and in one of the windows of the church of Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port.


----------



## bogdymol

alserrod said:


> Just a question.
> 
> Are there any internal controls from Bratislava to Vienna?


Yes. I have been stopped once at this minor crossing between the 2 cities. I drove there just to avoid the long queues while entering Austria from Hungary, but I did not want to take the motorway in Slovakia as I needed a vignette for that.


----------



## alserrod

and by railway or by boat?


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> and by railway or by boat?


Railway tends to happen at Petrzalka on the Slovakian side (on the southern railway route) and at Marchegg on the Austrian side (on the northern railway route). 

In terms of road, you'll often see police on the D4/A6 and B9 / I/69 crossings. 

With boats, the Austrian police still use this facility here, so it's not unusual to see controls. You can actually see a police van there, too.

An interesting picture from 2004 at the Bratislava-Breg crossing here. It looks like this today.

Ah, and this building here was opened in 1989. It was built as part of the plan by the CSSR to introduce visa-on-arrival for Western tourists, so they could park their cars and be processed inside the building without needing to get a visa in advance. There were three other such crossings, but I don't know where they were.


----------



## Eulanthe

I've found some interesting pictures of the border crossing at České Velenice (CZ) / Gmünd (A) during the cold war: http://www.vojensko.cz/ceske-velenice-opk-r-1966 

http://www.vojensko.cz/ceske-velenice-opk-r-1966 - you can look through these for many interesting views of the border. There are also other pictures under different years - look on the right side under "dobove foto" for different years. 

What I find especially interesting is this - http://www.vojensko.cz/opk-ceske-velenice?image=1 - when you look on street view, you can see that the first border controls were 250m before the border line.

And a drawing here of the border defences: http://www.vojensko.cz/strelba-na-hp-ceske-velenice-13-8-1967 

If anyone can read Czech, there's a description here of a shooting that took place at the border here: http://www.vojensko.cz/upload/ceske velenice - strelba 1967.pdf

One interesting story about Czechoslovak borders that I've found when hunting down old pictures - apparently as late as 1992, there were no accurate maps showing exactly where the border was between the Czech and Slovak Republics.


----------



## Eurosnob

"Rechts aanhouden"? Why couldn't they write "Houd rechts". Much more sensible translation. Ah, I get it. They didn't know how to spell it (Houdt rechts or houd rechts).






Palance said:


> Hoek van Holland, NL. Here arrives the ferry from Harwich, UK (location)
> 
> Some signs for traffic coming from the ferry:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amsterdam, follow Rotterdam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And for traffic travelling to Harwich: a sign for England.


----------



## Llapi 1

*Integrated Border Management between Republic of Kosovo and Republic of N.Macedonia at the border crossing point in Bellanoc:*


----------



## tfd543

Ready to be opened


----------



## alserrod

Not exactly a border crossing (yet) but have a look, please.

In the road Lisbon-Valladolid-Bordeaux-Paris, the border Spain-Portugal was remaining to be finished in motorway.

Spain opened its part today... you will avoid Spanish boundary town but not yet Portuguese one.

Anyway, in openstreetmap you can glance how it is the project. Border crosses exit lanes coming from Portugal (it is not a mistake nor a fake, it is accurate).

This is, in the future, providing they want to make international controls, the only way is shared booths inside Portugal or almost impossible.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/40.6096/-6.8306


----------



## Eulanthe

As far as I remember, didn't Spain/Portugal have shared booths after the building of the Guadiana bridge?


----------



## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> As far as I remember, didn't Spain/Portugal have shared booths after the building of the Guadiana bridge?


No, they haven't

I bet, it was the first new border crossing built without booths in all EU.
It was designed BEFORE Schengen treaty started but it was known there will be no controls when it would be opened... therefore they had never have any booth in any side

BTW, it was an important infrastructure due to nearest bridge before 1992 was 100 km away or so (and nothing of motorway)


----------



## Eulanthe

Surely there were controls? I've been there in 1999, and there were booths on the Portuguese side, where the current rest area/welcome point is. 

You can see the evidence on Google Earth if you go back to 2005/2006/2007 - the islands used for the booths are still there, along with evidence of buildings having been built on both sides of the crossing. If you zoom out and select a year from 1991 onwards, you can also see white buildings there that aren't there anymore. 

Wikipedia says it opened in 1991, but Spain and Portugal didn't join Schengen until 1995 - so there must have been controls at that point. Customs checks in the EU also didn't end until 1st January 1993...


----------



## FabriFlorence

Spanish-French border at La Junquera, yesterday.








www.repstatic.it


----------



## italystf

It's surprising how easygoing controls are on the Slovenian-Croatian border, considering that is the outer Schengen border.
Yesterday I crossed both ways on E751 (Koper-Umag) and they barely looked at our IDs. If we had showed someone else's ID, they wouldn't have noticed.
It's nice to cross the border in 1 minute instead in half an hour (like happened to me on Easter 2017), but it means that a great number of unwanted persons and goods may make their way into Schengen area (reporterly some parts of the Bosnian-Croatian border are quite permeable either, especially around Neum).
Maybe it's because we Italian are EU citizens and we are entitled to freedom of circulation in both Slovenia and Croatia anyway... Are non-EU nationals controlled more stricly on that border?

BTW, A9 all the way from Umag to Pula is incredibly empty in winter.


----------



## Gyorgy

^^ Criminals also know that, they use the most frequent border crossings and avoid local ones where police officers have lot's of time and know the locals.


----------



## verreme

Eulanthe said:


> Surely there were controls? I've been there in 1999, and there were booths on the Portuguese side, where the current rest area/welcome point is.
> 
> You can see the evidence on Google Earth if you go back to 2005/2006/2007 - the islands used for the booths are still there, along with evidence of buildings having been built on both sides of the crossing. If you zoom out and select a year from 1991 onwards, you can also see white buildings there that aren't there anymore.
> 
> Wikipedia says it opened in 1991, but Spain and Portugal didn't join Schengen until 1995 - so there must have been controls at that point. Customs checks in the EU also didn't end until 1st January 1993...


Spain and Portugal had a bi-national free transit treaty before Schengen came into force.


----------



## kokomo

italystf said:


> It's surprising how easygoing controls are on the Slovenian-Croatian border, considering that is the outer Schengen border.
> Yesterday I crossed both ways on E751 (Koper-Umag) and they barely looked at our IDs. If we had showed someone else's ID, they wouldn't have noticed.
> It's nice to cross the border in 1 minute instead in half an hour (like happened to me on Easter 2017), but it means that a great number of unwanted persons and goods may make their way into Schengen area (reporterly some parts of the Bosnian-Croatian border are quite permeable either, especially around Neum).
> Maybe it's because we Italian are EU citizens and we are entitled to freedom of circulation in both Slovenia and Croatia anyway... *Are non-EU nationals controlled more stricly on that border?*
> 
> BTW, A9 all the way from Umag to Pula is incredibly empty in winter.


A year ago I crossed the Neum corridor by car going northbound. At that moment I was using my Argentine passport and my wife and children their Spanish ones. For leaving Croatia they merely counted how many of us there were and entering Bosnia the guard was bored and waved us through.
When we re-entered Croatia (the booth for leaving Bosnia was empty) the guard was a female one and she only asked us where were we going, Split we answered, and she only stamped mine and refused to look the Spanish ones.

Very very tranquil and relaxed process


----------



## alserrod

I crossed this border pass last summer

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.481...4!1sQNRuyeBK9es67UmpedG2Jg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I do not know how many SSC forumers have been there. For all the road, even in both countries, I didn't see any other car.

I knew it was EU only. I thought it could be because lack of possibility to check I had permission to entry in Schengen treaty area or so but...
there was no Croatian control, but two Slovenian officers. I had to get off the car and show all the passports. They asked me where I was going on (and for sure, they could have time to check all the car peacefully..... no queues at all). They took the two adults passports and they scanned in a machine, glanced something and just say, good journey!!.

I wonder what they would had done if I just had gave them my ID card. It was legal according it was inside EU (because it cannot be scanned out of the country, just glance to see it is not a fake, BTW, it is hard, hard by far to have an ID card than a passport)


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## tfd543

A great alternative to the Rupa crossing. But what do you mean by no croatian controls? Was it like abandoned


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## alserrod

tfd543 said:


> A great alternative to the Rupa crossing. But what do you mean by no croatian controls? Was it like abandoned


No...

If you see booths from Croatian side, Right booths were for Croatian police and left ones were for Slovenian. It seemed barriers could be opened from each booth.

Croatians were empty.

I crossed several times SLO-HR border. I had controls from Slovenian police in all of them (only in that one they took the time to see all passports and scan two of them, according to traffic, they had enough time to check all the car before next car would arrive!!) and only once in Rupa a Croatian policewoman (with a sign of border checks) glanced Driver's passport.

Anyway, a good pass to avoid Rupa one. Anyway, I saw only three booths in Rupa pass open to traffic... thus congestion in both sides.


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## Eulanthe

verreme said:


> Spain and Portugal had a bi-national free transit treaty before Schengen came into force.


Can you tell me more about it? It's the first time I've heard about such a thing...



italysf said:


> It's surprising how easygoing controls are on the Slovenian-Croatian border, considering that is the outer Schengen border.


The general rule is that these are just identity checks, nothing more. For EU citizens, there's really not much point in conducting detailed controls - they aren't there to perform customs checks or anything else, they're only making sure that you have a travel document that allows you to cross the border.

It is a different story with non-EU citizens, and I've seen one example near Dubrovnik where the Croatian police waved a guy to the side, and then they conducted a very thorough secondary examination. 



alsserod said:


> there was no Croatian control, but two Slovenian officers.


Yes, there's an agreement that controls can be carried out by either country, there's no need to have both countries present there. It's rare to see Slovenian police not present, but Croatia is quite relaxed on EU-only border crossings. 

But are you sure they were two Slovenians? It's quite normal on these smaller crossings for there to be one Croatian, one Slovenian present, and what happens is that the Slovenian police will check the documents in the computer, while the Croatian police will look to see if there's anything suspicious with the travellers. 



> I wonder what they would had done if I just had gave them my ID card.


Nothing, it's a valid travel document. I used my ID card to go between Montenegro, Bosnia and Croatia so many times, and no-one cares. 



> It was legal according it was inside EU (because it cannot be scanned out of the country, just glance to see it is not a fake


All the ID cards can be scanned. Look on your ID card - the 'machine readable code' is what gets scanned, along with the picture. If the chip works, they'll use that too. 

If you ask the border guard politely at a quiet crossing, they're normally happy to show you what comes up - your picture and personal data get crosschecked with the Schengen/national databases. I asked them what would happen if there was an 'alert' for me, and they said that they had (at every border crossing, even tiny ones) special rooms to keep people in - they have to arrest the person, and then they call for someone to come and transfer the arrested person to a police station.

The border guard I asked said that he'd never had that situation though, and that the only thing he'd seen was unpaid fines. I asked what happened in that situation, and he said that unless it was a serious amount of money, they would just keep the person's documents while they went to the ATM to get money to pay.


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## Eulanthe

Just to continue my love of historical pictures, here's a picture of the border crossing between the Republic of Cyprus and Northern Cyprus in 1992. This picture is quite significant, because at the time, this was the only border crossing on the island. Furthermore, you could only pass from south to north (and return on the same day) - moving from north to south (and return) wasn't permitted by the Northern Cyprus government at the time, nor were longer visits permitted.



Ledra Palace Checkpoint, Nicosia, April 1992 by KevinMon2012, on Flickr.


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## alserrod

They were Slovenian for sure. They had a Slovenian flag in the uniform and there was only one car.

I had passports and they started to scan them (and It was a EU only pass). May I know it, I show only ID card, quite similar to Croatian and impossible to be scanned (although impossible to have a fake. I haven't read about fake ID cards because so difficult, sometimes passports but never cards)

I crossed four times border and I saw Croatian police only once in Rupa.

I must say out of traffic congestion or borders I saw rarely any Croatian officer. I wonder if they had other kind of control or it was a really safe area


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## tfd543

What if you resided in the north and Got a job in the south? Or more concerning, what if you Got severely injured and had to be taken to the state hospital.


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## Kanadzie

^^ the obvious answer is to leave that terrible place and move to a normal country


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## Penn's Woods

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ the obvious answer is to leave that terrible place and move to a normal country




But if you move to Montreal and don’t understand French, see if you can fake classification as a “historic Anglo,” right, Kanadzie?


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## alserrod

welcome home... in a tiny territory there are a lot of official languages and, in addition, they are majority in their territories. This is, most spoken language among population and... main companies ads are in those languages due to it is the best way to hint into market.

Signs and pannels may be bilingual... but they aren't at all always.


Anyway, about hospitals... an international hospital

Catalan government agreed with their French neighbourghs to build a hospital here

Puigcerda
https://www.google.com/maps/place/P...2b1f2cb44d74e120!8m2!3d42.4335392!4d1.9291154

It is just 3 km (or less) from border and you can take several international roads/streets to reach there without booths.

There weren't enough population in Spain to make a hospital and there is few, few, few population in France, nearest hospital was far away.

But joined in the main town in the area, they had enough population. It is managed by regional government in Catalonia and French region pays its part according to population they have for that hospital.

They deal with Spanish and French health service with no problem. 
And there are two niceties...

1- may a baby is born, he has been born in Puigcerda. At the moment, for a French baby, he must be registered in Barcelona consulate due to he has being born abroad (it is a French affair to deal if they let to book in local office babies born in Puigcerda)

2- may any French is dead inside hospital (for instance, a fatality after a car accident and ambulances try to reach that hospital), coffin cannot be open after they leave hospital. All procedures for family must be inside hospital. It is due to an EU regulation and quite weird. Not often, but they happen


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## Corvinus

Eulanthe said:


> Just to continue my love of historical pictures, here's a picture of the border crossing between the Republic of Cyprus and Northern Cyprus in 1992. This picture is quite significant, because at the time, this was the only border crossing on the island. Furthermore, you could only pass from south to north (and return on the same day) - moving from north to south (and return) wasn't permitted by the Northern Cyprus government at the time, nor were longer visits permitted.


That has somewhat relaxed since then, probably also due to the EU accession of the Republic of Cyprus, and other diplomatic efforts. When I visited a year ago, it was said there are 7 crossings in total (of which three in Nicosia). I don't say "border crossings" since it's not a border, "just" a line between the occupied part and the internationally recognized Republic. 
There are of course still tons of unusual particularities about crossing between the two parts. In forums I read that North-registered vehicles are banned from entering the Republic, but that proved wrong - when there, I saw numerous of them in the South. 
When crossing the Deryneia/Famagusta checkpoint, I saw a Turkish mainland registered car moving up to cross into the Republic. That was interesting since according to the Republic's law one cannot legally enter the country from the occupied area (even though it's said EU citizens are not sanctioned if doing so), only cross there and return after an initial entry at an official point of entry of the South.


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## Coccodrillo

From January there will be a border crossing between Campione d'Italia and Switzerland.

Italy wanted to kill its exclave and has nearly achieved its goal. Most of its public services are provided by Switzerland, which isn't being paid for that since months if not years.

I wonder if Germany treats Büsingen am Hochrein (the other Swiss enclave) in the same way - I suppose not.


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## alserrod

Where will be that new border crossing?

Wasn't all through Italy indeed?


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## g.spinoza

Coccodrillo said:


> From January there will be a border crossing between Campione d'Italia and Switzerland.
> 
> Italy wanted to kill its exclave and has nearly achieved its goal. Most of its public services are provided by Switzerland, which isn't being paid for that since months if not years.


I won't weep for Campione... Italian public servants paid in francs. That's ridiculous. Go to Switzerland altogether and stop being a burden for the rest of us.


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## alserrod

But where will be new border pass?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/2...6e8f3afa9e05d1b1!8m2!3d45.9699459!4d8.9714586


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## italystf

Corvinus said:


> That has somewhat relaxed since then, probably also due to the EU accession of the Republic of Cyprus, and other diplomatic efforts. When I visited a year ago, it was said there are 7 crossings in total (of which three in Nicosia). I don't say "border crossings" since it's not a border, "just" a line between the occupied part and the internationally recognized Republic.
> There are of course still tons of unusual particularities about crossing between the two parts. In forums I read that North-registered vehicles are banned from entering the Republic, but that proved wrong - when there, I saw numerous of them in the South.
> When crossing the Deryneia/Famagusta checkpoint, I saw a Turkish mainland registered car moving up to cross into the Republic. That was interesting since according to the Republic's law one cannot legally enter the country from the occupied area (even though it's said EU citizens are not sanctioned if doing so), only cross there and return after an initial entry at an official point of entry of the South.


Probably that Turkish car was driven by an EU citizen. If a non-EU citizen enter Northern Cyprus first (by plane or ferry from Turkey), they can't cross the Green Line into the South, as it would be illegal immigration into Southern Cyprus.
EU citizens, instead, are allowed to travel from Turkey to Southen Cyprus via Northern Cyprus, because they can't be considered illegal immigrants in Southern Cyprus.


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## italystf

Coccodrillo said:


> From January there will be a border crossing between Campione d'Italia and Switzerland.
> 
> Italy wanted to kill its exclave and has nearly achieved its goal. Most of its public services are provided by Switzerland, which isn't being paid for that since months if not years.
> 
> I wonder if Germany treats Büsingen am Hochrein (the other Swiss enclave) in the same way - I suppose not.


For Italy it would make sense to give Campione d'Italia back to Switzerland, and annex a piece of Swiss land of the same area but contiguous to Italy.


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## alserrod

AFAIK, Märket island has a border inside between Finland and Sweden. There aren't many islands with borders inside. Märket is one out of them.

It has a phare that was managed for a long time by Finland and they noticed it was inside Sweden.
Shifting territory seemed not to be difficult. The whole island hadn't specific interest... but fishing areas of each country were claimed after land borders.

Therefore, solution was to shift a piece of territory from/to Finland/Sweden (And phare inside Finland) but final border in the coast remained in the exact point. Therefore fishing areas didn't had any change


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## MattiG

alserrod said:


> AFAIK, Märket island has a border inside between Finland and Sweden. There aren't many islands with borders inside. Märket is one out of them.
> 
> It has a phare that was managed for a long time by Finland and they noticed it was inside Sweden.
> Shifting territory seemed not to be difficult. The whole island hadn't specific interest... but fishing areas of each country were claimed after land borders.
> 
> Therefore, solution was to shift a piece of territory from/to Finland/Sweden (And phare inside Finland) but final border in the coast remained in the exact point. Therefore fishing areas didn't had any change


The borderline at Märket was redrawn in 1985 in a way that exactly the same amount land moved from Finland to Sweden as from Sweden to Finland. That is why the border line is somewhat complex:










The case was more complex than the fishing areas. The Åland Islands are demilitarized by the international treaties of 1856 and 1922. The treaty of 1922 in the National League is not mutual to Finland and Sweden only, but it was signed by Germany, the UK, France, Italy, Denmark, Poland, Estonia and Latvia, too. After the rearrangement of 1985, the Foreign Ministry of Finland sent a note to those countries assuring that the change was made in a close co-operation of Finland and Sweden.

To make things more complicated, the Swedish side of the island is cut into two by a regional border between two municipalities in two provinces: Norrtälje in Stockholms län and Östhammar in Uppsala län.

Märket is not the only island touched by the Finnish-Swedish border line. There are a few such islands at the coast of the towns of Tornio and Haparanda:


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## Coccodrillo

alserrod said:


> But where will be new border pass?
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/place/2...6e8f3afa9e05d1b1!8m2!3d45.9699459!4d8.9714586


The border will remain where it is now, but some office building will be built somewhere here: https://www.google.com/maps/@45.961...=60.38075&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656

Until now it was part of the Swiss custom union (while Samnaun, which is in Switzerland, is outside it).



g.spinoza said:


> I won't weep for Campione... Italian public servants paid in francs. That's ridiculous. Go to Switzerland altogether and stop being a burden for the rest of us.


Of course, as the official money is the Swiss Franc (I suppose this will also change, too). Also car plates are Swiss (but with the I black-white oval, instead of the CH one).

Apparently there were too much public employees (the greatest part of them has been recently fired to cut costs) and many of the rest of the citizens worked in the casino which ended in bankruptcy over one year ago. The result is that most citizens are now unemployed and the municipality is in a financial disaster.



italystf said:


> For Italy it would make sense to give Campione d'Italia back to Switzerland, and annex a piece of Swiss land of the same area but contiguous to Italy.


Over a century ago there were talks to swap Campione with Indemini, but this ended in nothing. There are many enclaves/exclaves in Europe, and they work (including the German municipality in Switzerland), why should here be different?


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## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> AFAIK, Märket island has a border inside between Finland and Sweden. There aren't many islands with borders inside. Märket is one out of them.
> 
> It has a phare that was managed for a long time by Finland and they noticed it was inside Sweden.
> Shifting territory seemed not to be difficult. The whole island hadn't specific interest... but fishing areas of each country were claimed after land borders.
> 
> Therefore, solution was to shift a piece of territory from/to Finland/Sweden (And phare inside Finland) but final border in the coast remained in the exact point. Therefore fishing areas didn't had any change




“Phare” isn’t English. You need “lighthouse.”
I only understand it because I know French.


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## italystf

Coccodrillo said:


> Over a century ago there were talks to swap Campione with Indemini, but this ended in nothing. There are many enclaves/exclaves in Europe, and they work (including the German municipality in Switzerland), why should here be different?


Campione d'Italia is not simply an enclave, but is also a special territory of Italy, comparable to the Faer Oer for Denmark or the Channel Islands for the UK.
For some aspects is already part of Switzerland and Italy has a somewhat limited sovereignity over it. VAT, custom area, license plates, phone services, postal services, currency are the Swiss ones. Even before Schengen, there were no border checkpoints between Campione and Switzerland. Some Italian laws don't apply in Campione.
A full integration of Campione into Italian legal framework would be complicate because of the territorial division. The status quo is more expensive for Italy, as we need to provide services to it and at the same time allow tax privileges.


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## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> “Phare” isn’t English. You need “lighthouse.”
> I only understand it because I know French.


Lol!!, you're right. I wrote by hearth and I just remembered a former map where the word "phare" was written there!!


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## italystf

Another (expensive) solution could be building a tunnel connecting directly Campione d'Italia with the rest of Italy via Lanzo d'Intelvi. In that case, it would de facto lost the status of enclave and could be fully integrated into Italy.


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## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Another (expensive) solution could be building a tunnel connecting directly Campione d'Italia with the rest of Italy via Lanzo d'Intelvi. In that case, it would de facto lost the status of enclave and could be fully integrated into Italy.


It isn't worth. Let them go.


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## mgk920

At least the USA-Russia border runs _between_ the two Diomede islands.

:nuts:

Mike


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## italystf

Giving a piece of Italy to another country without getting any territorial compensation would be politically unacceptable.
Italy and Switzerland can agree an exchange of territories. Italy already made similar agreements with France, Switzerland, and Yugoslavia, although they all involved few square meters of land, not entire villages. The largest border exchange was between Italy and France near Claviere, in the 1970s, when around 0.1 km^2 of land were swapped.
A larger territorial swapping happened few years ago between India and Bangladesh, when several enclaves difficult to control were eliminated.


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## alserrod

In the case of India and Bangladesh, AFAIK, there were enclaves into enclaves or so.

They got an agreement and some population could change nationality. They had a time to move (really not far) or they would change their nationality.


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## mgk920

italystf said:


> Giving a piece of Italy to another country without getting any territorial compensation would be politically unacceptable.
> Italy and Switzerland can agree an exchange of territories. Italy already made similar agreements with France, Switzerland, and Yugoslavia, although they all involved few square meters of land, not entire villages. The largest border exchange was between Italy and France near Claviere, in the 1970s, when around 0.1 km^2 of land were swapped.
> A larger territorial swapping happened few years ago between India and Bangladesh, when several enclaves difficult to control were eliminated.


A few decades ago, the Mexico-USA border was straightened to follow the center of the artificially channeled Rio Grande in the central Ciudad Juarez, CH/El Paso, TX area, with the primary condition being that whatever territory was transferred in either direction could never be developed for any purpose other than public parkland.

Mike


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## Eulanthe

Alserrod - can you watch this please?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzBbm09m2X8

It's about the new Gibraltar-Algeciras ferry crossing, and the Deputy Chief Minister from Gibraltar says that there's no "border inspection post" in La Linea, but only in Algeciras. What does he mean? Does it mean that goods won't be allowed to be exported from Spain into Gibraltar after Brexit at La Linea?

The only thing I can think of here is that La Linea was never a point for exporting goods, because Spain joined the EU after Gibraltar did. But what confuses me - there are customs controls there when you cross the border by truck, so...what's going on?


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## Verso

^^ Yes, actually I got them at Ercan airport only. I didn't get any stamp on the border with RoC.


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## Džiugas

By the way, the Northern Cypriot passport stamp uses the old design that RoC used before 2004.


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## Eulanthe

I wonder if it's not intentional, as there's several examples where it's clear that the TRNC doesn't regard the RoC as a completely foreign country. From a border perspective, the most notable is the lack of customs controls - I've only seen one customs officer at Ledra Palace, and he was busy playing some world conquest game on his computer. 

A small update on the history of crossings: I've found that until the Agios Dometios/Metehan checkpoints opened in 2004, car traffic was permitted to travel through Ledra Palace after it was opened for all traffic in 2003.

Edit: Some more interesting information. In 2003 when the TRNC opened the checkpoints, everyone except people with TRNC ID cards had to present a passport at the checkpoint, including Greek Cypriots. I haven't found when they started allowing RoC ID cards, but they probably realised that they were missing out on considerable income from tourism by demanding passports after Cyprus joined the EU.

Another picture: Ledra Street roadblock in 1990.










A view from the Ledra Street roadblock towards the Lokmaci roadblock in 2006. A UN soldier in the buffer zone is visible.



















And the same view in 1998:










And some more:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13000291955/in/photostream/ - Ledra Street roadblock in 1999.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13000388563/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13000425753/in/photostream/ - looking over to the Lokmaci roadblock
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13000295165/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13000640264/in/photostream/ - Ledra Palace checkpoint on the RoC side. The barbed wire and other defensive structures are still in place, though the guard booth has gone (which was on the left).

And an interesting video from 1964, showing the first roadblock/checkpoint to be erected at Ledra Palace.

edit2: A picture from the bridge that was erected at the Lokmaci roadblock before the crossing was opened. The purpose of this bridge was to allow the Turkish Army to freely move around the restricted zone next to the border, but the RoC authorities point blank refused to open the crossing if the bridge stayed.


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## italystf

Eulanthe said:


> And an interesting video from 1964, showing the first roadblock/checkpoint to be erected at Ledra Palace.
> [/IMG]


Obviously it's 1974, not 1964.


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## Eulanthe

italystf said:


> Obviously it's 1974, not 1964.


No, 1964. The first temporary barricades in Nicosia were erected in the late 1950's, but then more permanent barricades appeared after violence in 1963-4. For instance, Lokmaci/Ledra Street was barricaded in 1963.

This shows the first barricade on Ledra Street in 1963. The buildings are still the same - that corner building on the right is a good frame of reference compared to a modern photo:



















There's a video here showing the first division in 1956 - https://www.britishpathe.com/video/nicosia-curfew-life-inside-the-city - it was known as the "Dixon Line" before the Green Line was established.


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## italystf

^^ How was the situation in 1956-1974? Was it easy/possible to cross the de facto border? Was the border sealed along its entire lenght like today or there were only some roadblocks?


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## Kanadzie

that photo with the child, LOL, even when I was that young I'd know to keep the muzzle down :lol:


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## Eulanthe

italystf said:


> ^^ How was the situation in 1956-1974? Was it easy/possible to cross the de facto border? Was the border sealed along its entire lenght like today or there were only some roadblocks?


From what I understand:

The first barricades were erected in April 1956 in Nicosia, as this was where the worst violence was. There are some pictures here - https://in-cyprus.com/the-history-of-eleftheria-square-from-1882-to-2018-pictures/ - that show the restrictions on entry into the Old Walled City from the south. It seems to me that the British did two things - they restricted access to the Old City in Nicosia and imposed a curfew, but they also separated the two communities. There may have been other barricades elsewhere, but I don't know for sure. 

The first barrier between the Greek and Turkish sectors in Nicosia was more or less in the same place as the modern day line between the TRNC and the buffer zone. There was definitely a barrier (said to be 2m high, made of barbed wire) between the Paphos and Famagusta gates, and there were crossing points manned by British forces. I don't think this first barrier lasted so long - at least, it was gone by 1960 when Cyprus was given independence. 

(edit: I found a source suggesting that the barrier ran along Paphos (Pafou - known as Baf Caddesi in North Nicosia) Street, Hermes (Ermou) Street and Famagusta (Ammochostou) Street, so not quite in the same place).

After that, it seems that things were reasonably peaceful until December 1963, with more violence (known as "bloody Christmas" by Turkish Cypriots) 
and new barricades. It seems that these barricades never extended all the way through the Old City like in the 1950's, but only at certain places. There were battles, but it seems that the city wasn't divided (yet). 

The British then created the Green Line in Nicosia and beyond with agreement of Greek and Turkish Cypriots, with the idea that each community would look after their own sectors. But elsewhere in Cyprus, there was chaos - because (especially in the 1950's) people had started moving to 'Greek' or 'Turkish' areas, it turned into the situation that there was widespread fighting and aggression. I know the Turkish sectors of Limmasol and Larnaca had barricades, but there were many more examples. 

As a result of all this fighting, what happened next was that Turkish Cypriots started living in enclaves in 1964, that were heavily guarded against the government forces. This is where you start to see the real division - for instance, the Turkish Cypriot authorities fined their own people for going into Greek Cypriot areas. The Greek Cypriot authorities also imposed heavy restrictions on movement to/from the enclaves. This lasted until 1968-9 - although it was quite calm in 1968 after war nearly broke out in 1967 between Greece and Turkey.

It seems that the formal division into Turkish/Greek Cypriot states really became obvious in the early 1970's, as the Turkish Cypriot sectors started doing things like issuing stamps and operating as if it was a different country. It seems that the RoC government had no real control over these enclaves (including North Nicosia), but there were still plenty of issues and ceasefire breaches at this time. 

One thing I'd add about Nicosia - it's so absolutely obviously unnaturally divided. I took a long walk from Omorfita to Ledra Palace while following the Buffer Zone, and you can really see that the obvious routes have all been cut off.


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## Autobahn-mann

I proposed to rename this thread in "Cyprus internal border crossings"...


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## DanielFigFoz

Autobahn-mann said:


> I proposed to rename this thread in "Cyprus internal border crossings"...


Well, the Cypriot border is fascinating.


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## tfd543

Its not OT so im fine with that. I like Eulanthe’s postings. They’re sometimes long, but interesting.


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## italystf

It looks like that Cyprus used to be even more messed up before the 1974 Turkish invasion.
At least now it's possible to go back and forth across the border and Greeks and Turks don't shot each other.


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## Eulanthe

italystf said:


> It looks like that Cyprus used to be even more messed up before the 1974 Turkish invasion.
> At least now it's possible to go back and forth across the border and Greeks and Turks don't shot each other.


Yup, it was a really difficult situation for everyone on the island. I'd even suggest that it's easier now to go between Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot areas now than it was in the 1960's. 

Another interesting historical shot - this is the "health control" checkpoint in Nicosia Airport, out of use since 1974.










I have absolutely no idea what this health control was - it seems passports were checked here, but were there some sort of additional checks? Maybe it refers to the strict control of food imports that existed until Cyprus joined the EU? 

Interesting side note: despite Greek and Turkish being the official languages of Cyprus when this terminal opened in 1968, the signs in the airport are only in Greek and English.










Just to illustrate - this is the kind of sign you'll find on closed roads in the RoC that lead towards the Buffer Zone and the TRNC. This particular picture is from the Derynia crossing (that is now open), but I've seen the same elsewhere. On the TRNC side, there are signs warning you of approaching a military area as you get closer to the border.

One thing that people might not be aware of: technically, the Republic of Cyprus and the Republic of Turkey are still at a state of war. No formal ceasefire was ever agreed, but only a series of technical agreements that regulate the Buffer Zone and activities in/around it.


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## geogregor

Some local crossings between Poland and Czech Republic around place where I grew up, the town of Jastrzebie Zdroj.

This is a very local crossing in Skrbeńsko:


DSC09174 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09175 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09176 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09184 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


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## geogregor

Next crossing is near Czech hamlet of Zavada, slightly busier and bigger road, still local crossing though:


DSC09347 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09345 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09349 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

I love this concrete star: :cheers:

DSC09341 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09350 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Looking back to Poland:

DSC09343 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Former crossing facility, part of it occupied by police:

DSC09344 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


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## italystf

Road crossing the inner Irish border 4 times in 10 km.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/54....721,-7.3398554,12z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0?hl=it-IT

That's one of the reason why N.I. mostly voted for remain.


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## Corvinus

geogregor said:


> Some local crossings between Poland and Czech Republic around place where I grew up, the town of Jastrzebie Zdroj.
> 
> This is a very local crossing in Skrbeńsko:


These photos illustrate very well what Schengen open internal borders are about and why it is important to preserve this achievement by properly guarding the external borders.

Meanwhile in Hungary ... yesterday a throng of 70 clandestine migrants (video shows young men with covered faces) ran the border fence at the Röszke - Horgos (Schengen external) crossing. To repel the attempt, three warning shots were also fired after verbal requests were not heeded. Four illegals got arrested, many others ran away "in all directions" from Hungarian police arriving at the scene. The fence was destroyed on a length of 10 meters. Hungarian authorities suspect the action was coordinated and probably assisted by human traffickers. In consequence, the border crossing was temporarily closed down. 

A TV team later managed to contact some members of the gang, consisting mainly of Egyptians, back in Serbia. The young men said they were repeatedly intercepted by police and driven back to Serbia. They would nevertheless not give up, as they wanted to move further on to Austria and then Germany.

https://www.krone.at/2087903


----------



## geogregor

Corvinus said:


> These photos illustrate very well what Schengen open internal borders are about and why it is important to preserve this achievement by properly guarding the external borders.
> 
> Meanwhile in Hungary ... yesterday a throng of 70 clandestine migrants (video shows young men with covered faces) ran the border fence at the Röszke - Horgos (Schengen external) crossing. To repel the attempt, three warning shots were also fired after verbal requests were not heeded. Four illegals got arrested, many others ran away "in all directions" from Hungarian police arriving at the scene. The fence was destroyed on a length of 10 meters. Hungarian authorities suspect the action was coordinated and probably assisted by human traffickers. In consequence, the border crossing was temporarily closed down.
> 
> A TV team later managed to contact some members of the gang, consisting mainly of Egyptians, back in Serbia. The young men said they were repeatedly intercepted by police and driven back to Serbia. They would nevertheless not give up, as they wanted to move further on to Austria and then Germany.
> 
> https://www.krone.at/2087903


I know what you are trying to say but you are risking to derail this thread into politics and endless arguments....


----------



## Eulanthe

Geogregor, was the Skrbeńsko-Petrovice crossing really only opened in 2005 like Wikipedia claims?

Some historical views here of the DDR-People's Republic of Poland border in Zgorzelec, probably between 1972-1980 judging by the way that the controls are very light.


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## geogregor

Eulanthe said:


> Geogregor, was the Skrbeńsko-Petrovice crossing really only opened in 2005 like Wikipedia claims?


I think it was. There isn't much in term of infrastructure around so it seems it had to be opened after both Poland and the Czech Republic joined the EU.

Unfortunately despite growing up nearby I don't really have personal experience of using it. I left for uni in the late 90s, then I moved abroad. It really was my first visit there, also on the other crossing I posted above. That one was opened earlier, before Schengen or the EU accession.


----------



## Eulanthe

Just realised that the picture didn't show up, but this one should:










I have some severe doubts about this picture though, and I'm not convinced that it's from 1995 like it's claimed to be.


----------



## Eulanthe

More historical pictures, this time on the NL-D border at Hemden in 1992:










This was before Schengen, while there were still Customs controls at this point. Yet, it's very relaxed, and I've read in several places that the NL-D border was often wide open i the early 1990's and without actual controls for cars/people. 

I also found a picture from the D-PL border at Kołbaszkowo in 1992:










And one that I think will be new to many people: the built in 1993 (but never opened) border crossing between Bulgaria and North Macedonia at Klepalo. 



















There's an excellent 360 view here.

And a view from the PL-D border on Usedom island in 1993 - https://www.imago-images.de/search?creative=on&suchtext=Polen Schlagbaum 

And one that surprises me - a closed (except for pedestrians and bikes) border in Konstanz from 2018:


----------



## Corvinus

^^ Closed to motor vehicles (except mopeds) to reduce "industry-scale" smuggling, as this crossing appears to be permanently unmanned. Of course cyclists and pedestrians may still smuggle, but the quantities will be different. For many (not all) goods, the Swiss price level is significantly above Germany's, so it is tempting to overshoot the duty-free allowances.

The Swiss sign also mandates crossing "only in possession of a recognized and valid travel document". Might be from before CH joined the Schengen space about 10 years ago.


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## Eulanthe

I think it's new, because I think this crossing was closed until Switzerland joined Schengen. I found a picture here:










Sticking on the Swiss theme, I also found a picture from 1984 in Geneva train station. 










This was on the old platform 3, but the controls here were already out of use when this picture was taken.


----------



## Eulanthe

Some more historical pictures. 

http://openarchives.sncf.com/archive/coll80117

This is the railway border crossing in Hendaye in the 1980's. I can't make sense of how this worked - does anyone have any idea? It's also strange that it's the French Police on the left and the Spanish Customs on the right...

There's another picture here - http://openarchives.sncf.com/archive/coll80118 - but I still can't make sense of it.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Eulanthe said:


> I think it's new, because I think this crossing was closed until Switzerland joined Schengen. I found a picture here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sticking on the Swiss theme, I also found a picture from 1984 in Geneva train station.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was on the old platform 3, but the controls here were already out of use when this picture was taken.




I took a train from Paris to Geneva in 1986; I remember a passport check on the platform at Geneva.


----------



## tfd543

Eulanthe said:


> Some more historical pictures.
> 
> http://openarchives.sncf.com/archive/coll80117
> 
> This is the railway border crossing in Hendaye in the 1980's. I can't make sense of how this worked - does anyone have any idea? It's also strange that it's the French Police on the left and the Spanish Customs on the right...
> 
> There's another picture here - http://openarchives.sncf.com/archive/coll80118 - but I still can't make sense of it.




Maybe Its taken after passing the spanish police?


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## italystf

Border crossing between Russia and Estonia near Narva on December 1st 1991. That's interesting because Soviet Union officially dissolved on December 26th. But apparently border controls were established earlier.


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## Eulanthe

It's already an international border at that point - Estonia declared independence on the 20th August, and the Soviet Union recognised it on the 6th September. They took a few months to set up a proper migration law though, so the border could still be freely passed by USSR citizens then. 

I wrote about these controls a while ago on here, but basically, in 1990, Estonia (and the other Baltic States) set up the so-called "Economic Border" against the USSR. They were controlling the import of goods from the rest of the USSR. You can see it here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlhxd_VLVzY - this is the "Koidula Kordon".

Some more controls, this time from 1990 on the EST-LV border: https://www.facebook.com/kodukaitse/posts/922446751135741

Edit: some strange news today. I've just read that citizens of Andorra, San Marino, Monaco and the Vatican City will be obliged to get the new ETIAS before travelling into the Schengen countries, even though three out of the four are effectively in Schengen. 

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/ne...-will-not-enjoy-free-travel-to-eu-as-of-2021/

Could this be the start of police controls on the San Marino and Monaco borders?


----------



## tfd543

Well indeed. This Etias Will be a New security measure effective from early 2021. You wont be allowed entry into Schengen if you forget to fill in the etias if having a passport that grants visa-free travel in Schengen. Its gonna be like the US pretty much. Im just curious to know if border queues Will be longer in general. That would be sad...


----------



## italystf

Norweigian soldiers watching the Soviet border during the Cold War (1971)









https://www.quora.com/Was-there-an-official-border-crossing-between-Norway-and-the-Soviet-Union


----------



## italystf

del


----------



## Eulanthe

Interestingly, there were two other crossings between Norway and the Soviet Union, one at Skafferhullet and the other at Borisoglebsky, but not at the same place at the modern Russian crossing. 

Skafferhullet, 1940:










I can't find a picture now of the other crossing, but it was a very temporary thing that only lasted for one year (I think...).

edit: I could be wrong - possibly Skafferhullet/Borisoglebsky was one crossing.


----------



## Eulanthe

Not sure if this will show up, but let's try - it's the border crossing in the Port of Helsinki for traffic coming from/going to St Petersburg.


----------



## stickedy

Eulanthe said:


> Interestingly, there were two other crossings between Norway and the Soviet Union, one at Skafferhullet and the other at Borisoglebsky, but not at the same place at the modern Russian crossing.
> 
> Skafferhullet, 1940:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't find a picture now of the other crossing, but it was a very temporary thing that only lasted for one year (I think...).
> 
> edit: I could be wrong - possibly Skafferhullet/Borisoglebsky was one crossing.


I found it at Google: https://www.google.de/maps/place/Sk...bb6a869ccc258fd5!8m2!3d69.6650497!4d30.119677

The hill in the background looks the same.

https://www.google.de/maps/place/Sk...bb6a869ccc258fd5!8m2!3d69.6650497!4d30.119677


----------



## Eulanthe

It's a fantastic find, thank you! It's definitely the same place, because you can see a little (guard?) hut just within Russian territory too. 

I found some more pictures here - https://scanpix.no/spWebApp/gallery...CBBA4075C22EFB22BD4CC3D5D2A8.se?view=&id=2053 - including images of both the Norwegian and Soviet buildings.


----------



## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> Interestingly, there were two other crossings between Norway and the Soviet Union, one at Skafferhullet and the other at Borisoglebsky, but not at the same place at the modern Russian crossing.
> 
> Skafferhullet, 1940:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't find a picture now of the other crossing, but it was a very temporary thing that only lasted for one year (I think...).
> 
> edit: I could be wrong - possibly Skafferhullet/Borisoglebsky was one crossing.


That place was not a the Norwegian/Soviet border station in 1940 but the Norwegian/Finnish one. Norway and the Soviet Union did not have a common land border before 1944.

The history of that very remote area is quite complicated.


----------



## MattiG

italystf said:


> Norweigian soldiers watching the Soviet border during the Cold War (1971)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Was-there-an-official-border-crossing-between-Norway-and-the-Soviet-Union


The place was pretty funny-looking before the current border station was built: A narrow and windy road to Grense Jakobselv. Suddenly, in a middle of nothing, stone pillars and an iron gate appears, and a small sign "Sovjetunionen". 

Currently, the place is pretty different:










And this is how it looks like in a typical Norwegian weather:


----------



## MattiG

*Finland/Norway Karigasniemi 1956*

This is the temporary bridge across Inarijoki river at the Finland/Norway border in 1956. 










The German troops built the first bridge in 1943, but it got destroyed when the Germans decided to return home. A temporary wooden bridge was built, but it had to be removed and rebuilt every spring. Such a construction is not able to stand the power of moving melting ice.

The current bridge was built in 1958 in a co-operation of Finland and Norway.


----------



## Eulanthe

Matti, is it this place today?

There's an interesting abandoned shop here too - I guess at some point, this shop was built so Norwegians could buy things without having to pass the Finnish customs controls? 

Thank you also for the correction regarding Skafferhullet!


----------



## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> Matti, is it this place today?


Yes, it is.



> There's an interesting abandoned shop here too - I guess at some point, this shop was built so Norwegians could buy things without having to pass the Finnish customs controls?


No, it is just an ordinary abandoned kiosk. Finland is full of those. The Golden Age for kiosks as a center of rural villages gradually ceased a few decades ago. Most often, they were open in a summertime only.

There has been a joint customs operation of Norway and Finland since 1969. At each border crossing road, there is only one border station manned by authorities from both countries. The Finnish customs is authorized to operate in the border zone in Norway and vice versa.



> Thank you also for the correction regarding Skafferhullet!


You are welcome.

In my undestanding, Skafferhullet never was a border station for vehicles. The connection between Finland and Norway was a ferry between Salmijärvi in Finland and Svanvik in Norway about 20 kilometers upstream. The main access to the Boris Gleb area (known as Kolttaköngäs in Finland) was either a one-kilometer walk from the end of the road at the other side of the river, or via the river from Norway (the area lies at the sea level). The footpath from Boris Gleb to Kirkenes went via Skafferhullet.


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## bratislav

Sunday evening drive thru old border crossing Horgoš, YU side.


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## Verso

YU side?


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## bratislav

Verso said:


> YU side?


Juhoslávia navždy! / Jugoslavija za vedno!

It is build in time of our (or you do not think that Ljubljana was in YU) country. If you look at the photos you can see blue/white/red ramp poles with a gold-bordered red star in the center, and everybody knows that was flag of Yugoslavia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Yugoslavia). So, yes, YU side.


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## Autobahn-mann

^^ The question was made to identify the place, knowing which State is on the other side...


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## Attus

bratislav said:


> If you look at the photos you can see


Actually I can't see, or at least I can't recognize anything in these photos...


----------



## CSerpent

MattiG said:


> The place was pretty funny-looking before the current border station was built: A narrow and windy road to Grense Jakobselv. Suddenly, in a middle of nothing, stone pillars and an iron gate appears, and a small sign "Sovjetunionen".











http://holbech.org/wp-content/gallery/finnmark-norge-1987/1987-06-03-32.jpg

I think is what you were referring to, Matti?


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## MattiG

CSerpent said:


> http://holbech.org/wp-content/gallery/finnmark-norge-1987/1987-06-03-32.jpg
> 
> I think is what you were referring to, Matti?


Exactly!


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## Verso

bratislav said:


> Juhoslávia navždy! / Jugoslavija za vedno!
> 
> It is build in time of our (or you do not think that Ljubljana was in YU) country. If you look at the photos you can see blue/white/red ramp poles with a gold-bordered red star in the center, and everybody knows that was flag of Yugoslavia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Yugoslavia). So, yes, YU side.


But did you make those photos in times of Yugoslavia or last Sunday?


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## tfd543

Verso said:


> But did you make those photos in times of Yugoslavia or last Sunday?




Haha...

This border was actually closed temporarily very recently due to migrant influx.


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## Corvinus

^^ A week ago









(_photo src: Edvárd Molnár / MTI_)


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## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> YU side?


When was Horgos-1 opened? Yugoslavia existed until 2003, so could we say that this was always a Yugoslav border crossing when it was operating?


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## Alex_ZR

Eulanthe said:


> When was Horgos-1 opened? Yugoslavia existed until 2003, so could we say that this was always a Yugoslav border crossing when it was operating?


It was opened on August 1, 2006:

https://www.blic.rs/vesti/drustvo/otvoren-novi-granicni-prelaz-horgos/p68wq4n

I crossed there first time in January 2007.


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## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> When was Horgos-1 opened? Yugoslavia existed until 2003, so could we say that this was always a Yugoslav border crossing when it was operating?


I guess it was operating when bratislav drove across, and I doubt that was on a Sunday 20 years ago.


----------



## bogdymol

As I wrote back in January, Austria built a new border facility at its main border crossing with Hungary (Google Maps link). Here are some pictures while entering Austria from Hungary:

Motorway speed limit gets down to 30 km/h and traffic is diverted to the rightmost lane:










Speed limit down to 10 km/h, traffic allowed only on one lane:










This permanent structure is brand new, built at the end of last year. Although there are green lights over 2 lanes, only one was open. All traffic had to drive slowly near the border patrol offices, and some could be stopped for questioning:


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## ChrisZwolle

Well, if they are going to ignore Schengen rules anyway, they better expand capacity at border crossings to perform checks.


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## italystf

Schengen is a very weak system if at the slightest international crisis (G7, migrants,...) they suspend it. Apparently there is no enough trust and cooperation between Schengen state members.


----------



## Eurogue

Interestingly, on the European Commission website there's a list of all occurences when border controls were reintroduced (since 2006, link). I took the liberty to compile a country ranking out of it to see who did it most often, and the winners are:


*18* France
*16* Norway
*15* Austria
*14* Germany, Sweden
*12* Denmark
*5* Poland
*3* Finland, Malta, Spain
*2* Belgium, Estonia, Iceland, Italy
*1* Hungary, Latvia, Netherlands, Portugal, Slovenia
 What follows is that this mechanism was never called upon by the Czech Republic, Greece, Lithuania, Luxembourg and Slovakia.

It's not the most complete approach (would be better to group them by total duration as well, the table also has the data for this; or, even better, to see which border got reintroduced most often) but I think it's interesting enough to share. Personally I must say I didn't completely expect it'd look like this.


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## Corvinus

^^
- France, whose Manuel Valls referred to the Hungarian Schengen external border fence as "inhuman", "worse than cattle fences"; like statements also by numerous other dimwits of Hollande's government, 
- Austria, whose Werner Faymann "federal taxi driver" felt reminded to "the darkest times of our continent" by how Hungary attempted to follow Dublin regulations and stop illegals from onward travel to the West back in 2015,
- Germany and Sweden, whose governments were the biggest willkommenskultur promoters back at the height of the "migration crisis" ...

Norway is scoring pretty high too. Seems they have brains though: neither do they offend other countries and governments for protecting their borders, nor do their leaders boast themselves as "saviours of Europe". They silently take care of their own borders - way to go!


----------



## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Well, if they are going to ignore Schengen rules anyway, they better expand capacity at border crossings to perform checks.


Why should they? The less traffic enters Austria from Hungary, the happier the Austrian authorities are.


----------



## Eulanthe

The Czechs have closed the land borders with Germany and Austria, and they're now denying people entry if they come from 15 different countries, including the UK. Only Czechs and permanent residents are being permitted to enter, which is totally nuts.

I suppose we're now seeing if European borders can actually be returned to pre-Schengen status or not.


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## Adrian.02

Well,breaking news.
Romania decided to close some seldomly used(but not that small) border crossings with Bulgaria,Moldova and Ukraine.


----------



## devo

The Schengen agreement has options for exactly this kind of situation. The acid test would be when those exceptions run out. As with many things in society (20.000 deaths from the flu this season in the US), it's a balance between inconvenience and economic and societal benefits. 
If I may add, closing the borders is a slightly nonsensical measure as closing separate regions would be much more efficient (and such a regime would, imho, better function within the Schengen agreement than without). I assume the traffic within Lombardia is much higher than between Italy and the Czech republic, so closing roads between ie. Brescia and Milano would be much more efficient than closing borders.


----------



## J/K 05

*Colombia - Venezuela border, Today ! Coronavirus.*

Venezuelans entering Colombia.


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## alserrod

alserrod said:


> I have read Morocco has halted communications with Spain by ferry and plane but I do not know about road.
> 
> Spain closed flights with Italy last week


Morocco will close road borders at midgnight.

Every person leaving Ceuta or Melilla (ferries have no international activity) are adviced that they could have problems to return.


----------



## Attus

Eulanthe said:


> I suppose we're now seeing if European borders can actually be returned to pre-Schengen status or not.


The current situation is much worse than pre-Schengen. And in the following days more and more borders will be checked or even closed. 
The actual questions are what will happen aftermath, when this epidemic will be over. But I expect it no sooner than autumn.


----------



## volodaaaa

Slovakia closed its borders. Only citizens with residence may enter. Everyone except those who work in Slovakia must be put in 14 day long quarantine.


----------



## Theijs

Attus said:


> The current situation is much worse than pre-Schengen.


In particular if also all cargo transport is being blocked by closed borders...


----------



## i15

Slovakia does not block cargo transport


----------



## Corvinus

Adrian.02 said:


> Well,breaking news.
> Romania decided to close some seldomly used(but not that small) border crossings with Bulgaria,Moldova and Ukraine.


Thursday evening, the Romanian minister of internal affairs also announced the closure of the following four crossings with Hungary b/c of covid-19:


Battonya (H) - Turnu / Tornya (RO)
Létavértes (H) - Săcueni / Székelyhíd (RO)
Méhkerék (H) - Salonta / Szalonta (RO)
Nyírábrány (H) - Valea lui Mihai / Érmihányfalva (RO)

The first of these I crossed a few years back, very smooth experience and good alternative to the motorway crossing, although they did not sell the RO road toll sticker there.



i15 said:


> Slovakia does not block cargo transport


From what I've read so far, all of the so far closed borders still do allow cargo transport to pass. Truck drivers may be questioned of course.


----------



## Eulanthe

Poland has closed the borders to foreigners too as of midnight 15.03, unless they already live/work in PL. Polish citizens can cross, but anyone that crosses (with the exception of professional drivers) will be self-quarantined for 14 days.


----------



## KRX_69

*Portela do Homem (08.03.2020)*

01.

Portela do Homem by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

02.

Portela do Homem by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

03.

Portela do Homem by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

04.

Portela do Homem by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

:cheers:


----------



## Adrian.02

Serbia has just decided to close the border with Romania completely,as Romania is now on the serbian Red list of countries with Coronavirus.


----------



## alserrod

Morocco will re-open border with Spain just to let tourist going back home.


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## Attus

Hungarian borders are, apart from some minor crossings, open, but there are long queues towards Hungary. Especially at Nickelsdorf/Hegyeshalom, waiting time there may be tow hours or more.
After a scandalous case yesterday border check is quite strict today.


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## x-type

It is stupid to close the borders for all foreigners, and not for domiciles. All our 38 cases of Covid in Croatia have been imported, mostly by gastarbeiters, or domicile people who visited infective areas (first Italy, then Germany and Austria, lates Romania). 
Also, today first fines for breaking the rule of self-quarantine have been issued (cca 1000€ each).


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## Verso

There was a fight today on the Slovenian-Italian border. Two Ukrainian buses with 95 passengers were forbidden entry into Slovenia and they weren't allowed back into Italy either. After a diplomatic agreement with Balkan countries and Ukraine they were escorted by the police to the border with Croatia without stopping. They should reach Ukraine tomorrow.


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## Stuu

Verso said:


> There was a fight today on the Slovenian-Italian border. Two Ukrainian buses with 95 passengers were forbidden entry into Slovenia and they weren't allowed back into Italy either. After a diplomatic agreement with Balkan countries and Ukraine they were escorted by the police to the border with Croatia without stopping. They should reach Ukraine tomorrow.


That's interesting, I was speaking to somebody yesterday about the possibility of that happening. I wonder what would happen if it were only a 1 or 2 people in that situation?


----------



## SeanT

Denmark has closed it's borders aswell. If you are not danish citizen or work or have an address in the country you can not enter. It is issued for 1 month.


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## italystf

Europe have never been so messed up like today since 1945.


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## Verso

italystf said:


> Europe have never been so messed up like today since 1945.


Western Europe. Eastern Europe was quite a mess until 1990, not to mention wars in ex-Yugoslavia, Chechnya, and the ongoing war in eastern Ukraine. Also, Spain and Portugal were fascist until 1970s. But yes, Europe generally hasn't been in such a mess for quite some time.


----------



## btrs

I seriously hope the borders of the Benelux countries stay open, at least for cargo/freight/parcels. We are very dependent on them, especially the Dutch (Coolblue, Albert Heijn, Bol.com.., all their goods destined for Belgium pass through their distribution centres which are a strone-throw away from the border..).

Amazon is in a similar nasty position: it has distribution centres in Lauwin-Planque (near Douai, also not far from the Belgian border) and in Germany there are 2 major ones that supply the Belgian and Dutch market: Dortmund and Werne.
The UK ones also supply for the Belgian market, but are less important than the French and German ones.

Which makes me wonder: now that you can order certain toiletry goods on Amazon - are there any restrictions on how much toilet paper one can order ? Anyone want to test this ? :lol:


----------



## alserrod

A relative wrote me to say a plane coming from Liverpool landed in Canary Islands with 300ish people.

They were allowed to entry and all of them surprised because officers asked everyone if they knew country news

To be accurate, after 22h (21h in Canaries) they should remain in the hotel and they aren't allowed to move even to pool or beach.

Does people read news about covid 19?

Does people learn geography and know where are they if landing in Canary Islands?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Cross-border commuters between Italy and Switzerland decreased from 68.000 to 28.000 a day in less than a week. Some began woking from home and some remained in Switzerland sleeping in hotels which are now deserted by tourists. Now that most restaurants, hotels and shops are closed this number will decrease again.

Saturday 7th entering Lombardia was still possible.

Campione's situation is unclear. There were no checks at this border crossing yesterday. And the management of this enclave/exclave has been confusing since the introduction of new rules in January.


----------



## Sunfuns

I wonder if there has been a huge decrease in cross-border commuting here in Basel as well.


----------



## SRC_100

European Union...?! Schengen...?!

One guy is happy for sure, at least satisfied...


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Western Europe. Eastern Europe was quite a mess until 1990, not to mention wars in ex-Yugoslavia, Chechnya, and the ongoing war in eastern Ukraine. Also, Spain and Portugal were fascist until 1970s. But yes, Europe generally hasn't been in such a mess for quite some time.


And don't forget Norhern Ireland troubles and the military coup in Greece. But those were all local crisis. They didn't affect the whole continent.


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> Western Europe. Eastern Europe was quite a mess until 1990, not to mention wars in ex-Yugoslavia, Chechnya, and the ongoing war in eastern Ukraine. Also, Spain and Portugal were fascist until 1970s. But yes, Europe generally hasn't been in such a mess for quite some time.


You forgot about IRA and ETA?


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## cougar1989

Germany will close the borders to France, Austria and Switzerland
https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/blog-coronavirus-102.html


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## tfd543

To the above-mentioned: And Denmark.


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## MichiH

^^ and Luxembourg


----------



## Corvinus

Well, "closed" is not to be taken too literally. In all the cases I have read about so far, the borders will still be open to:

- freight transport
- frontaliers (cross-border workforce)
- depending on country (e.g. Austria), for uninterrupted transit of travellers (they might check fuel gauge at entry)

besides the admission of the respective country's own citizens and legal residents, of course.


----------



## Kpc21

Poland has forbidden the entry for the country for all flights except for charter ones (bringing back the tourists of pre-organized trips from travel agancies) and special emergency ones chartered by the state from the national airline Lot that are supposed to bring back to Poland the willing people who are now abroad (however, these flights aren't free of charge for the passengers and the ticket prices are quite high compared with low-cost airlines – about 100-200 euro).


----------



## Verso

x-type said:


> You forgot about IRA and ETA?





italystf said:


> And don't forget Norhern Ireland troubles and the military coup in Greece. But those were all local crisis. They didn't affect the whole continent.


You're right, but Eastern Europe (ex-Eastern Bloc) covers more than half of Europe. Russia alone covers almost half of Europe. :lol: So it makes sense to say just 'Western Europe'.


----------



## geogregor

Eulanthe said:


> Poland has closed the borders to foreigners too as of midnight 15.03, unless they already live/work in PL. Polish citizens can cross, but anyone that crosses (with the exception of professional drivers) will be self-quarantined for 14 days.


A few days earlier I was visiting border areas and took some photos of local crossing around Jastrzebie Zdroj, I assume they look very different now...

Marklowice:

DSC01025 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

The infrastructure is on the Czech side:

DSC01034 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01029 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

House right on the border 

DSC01035 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01036 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01042 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01045 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01046 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01049 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## Adrian.02

Hungary has closed its borders for foreign citizens,the only exceptions being the freight transport.


----------



## Corvinus

^^ According to hirado.hu, the shutdown begins this Midnight, and as for passenger traffic, only Hungarian citizens will be allowed in. 
(Note: I suspect foreign citizens with a residency will be allowed in, too - the media are often inexact on these details.)

The article also mentions that expired documents (ID / passport) won't have to be renewed until the emergency is over.


----------



## alserrod

Spain to close all borders this night

I guess administration is worrier on flights rather on cars


----------



## geogregor

alserrod said:


> Spain to close all borders this night
> 
> I guess administration is worrier on flights rather on cars


With virus already widespread in France and Spain I honestly struggle to understand the rationale for closing the borders. Especially if both countries are already (or will be soon) in lock down.

It looks like symbolic and psychological measure.


----------



## Ingenioren

Seems more a legal measure than a practical one, Norwegian border is also "closed", but smaller crossings are not controlled apart from random checks and monitor surveillance. Main crossings are checked, mostly i assume to stop clueless tourists. Starting today every crossing except for work reasons results in a 14 day "quarantine"(meaning stay away from other people as best you can).


----------



## MacOlej

They split traffic into two lanes:
1. "Passenger" lane still undergoes more thorough checks, although the amount of cars is obviously rather low.
2. "Transport" lane where they quit requiring drivers to fill out some forms (these forms were the root cause of delays, it took about 15 minutes to completely service one truck/driver).


----------



## alserrod

It happened last weekend but SSC was down

In Somport tunnel a car got into south and...









Persecución de 70 km desde Canfranc a Nueno con tiros y un guardia civil herido


El vehículo, con matrícula alemana, se saltó un control y fue interceptado en la A-23 tras recibir el coche dos disparos que reventaron las ruedas. Antes tiró al suelo a un motorista de la Benemérita, herido leve.




www.heraldo.es





Briefly, they had tried to entry into Spain twice in Catalonia and rejected. They tried via Aragon. They chose the worst place. As soon as you get into tunnel cameras record you. There were police in the south exit to ask for reason to entry into Spain due to closure (freight, people moving and so on are allowed) and they just run!!!

They moved for 70 km by road and motorway, crossed Monrepos pass and crashed between some patrols and motorcycles.

Sent directly to jail. It has been first jail due to measures taken over covid19 (there were some other reasons to sent to jail but fastest one was to choose those measures)


----------



## Kpc21

In Poland there are already people jailed for violating the quarantine.


----------



## alserrod

In Spain I do not know how many but this was the first case. Fines, too many but jail, I guess they are the first one and... first fact they did was... border crossing without permission. That's the reason I post it here


----------



## CborG

Not exactly a border crossing but this is the Zeeman store in Baarle Nassau/Hertog in the southern Netherlands. The village is infamous because of the borders crossing the village irregularly and now even it is more of a sight because of the different lockdown rules in both countries. Here we have a shop which is located in both countries, the border goes right through the shop so the part in Belgium is closed off because no non-essential shops are allowed to open, contrary to the Netherlands. The are rumours of people in panic because the aisle where the underwear is located is closed off 
















Belgische grens dwars door Zeeman in Baarle-Nassau: 'Ik kon geen herenshirts meer kopen'


Dat door de coronamaatregelen bijzondere situaties in onze provincie ontstaan, was al duidelijk. Maar in grensdorp Baarle-Nassau zorgt het voor een wel heel gek gezicht. In de plaatselijke Zeeman is de zaak met linten in tweeën gesplitst, omdat de grens tussen België en Nederland pal door de...



www.omroepbrabant.nl


----------



## geogregor

CborG said:


> Not exactly a border crossing but this is the Zeeman store in Baarle Nassau/Hertog in the southern Netherlands. The village is infamous because of the borders crossing the village irregularly and now even it is more of a sight because of the different lockdown rules in both countries. Here we have a shop which is located in both countries, the border goes right through the shop so the part in Belgium is closed off because no non-essential shops are allowed to open, contrary to the Netherlands. The are rumours of people in panic because the aisle where the underwear is located is closed off


This is just plane stupid. From the epidemiological point of view it should be seen as one community. God save us from the bureaucrats...


----------



## Ingenioren

How Norwegians and Swedes can hang out without breaking any rules:


----------



## alserrod

In my region, police has demanded to make a closure of three out of four international borders.

There is one clear: Somport pass (after it is possible to go via tunnel, the other border and pass has barely traffic)

I doubt about traffic in Portalet pass.

I guess they should remain, at least partially, open Bielsa tunnel

They propose to check only Somport tunnel


----------



## bogdymol

An online map showing the European border crossing waiting times for trucks. You can check it live here.


----------



## Kpc21

So Poland has managed to deal with the queues at the western border. Except for the crossing in Frankfurt Oder/Słubice. I wonder what it results from. Are, maybe, the foreign trucks only allowed to cross the border there?

Why isn't it showing the situation at the Polish-Ukrainian border?


----------



## alserrod

I was glancing traffic webcams and located two in my region which are border crossing

Somport pass





FRONTERA SOMPORT


Dirección General de Tráfico



www.dgt.es





located here








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com




(turn back and you will see former booths)

and Somport tunnel





Somport Boca sur


Dirección General de Tráfico



www.dgt.es





located in the entrance of tunnel








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


----------



## Coccodrillo

Bureaucracy is destroying the town of Campione, which now is in the European custom area even if it is not phisically in that area.

Most works have been historically done by Swiss companies, which now avoid all non-vital operations. So no more maintenance to heating systems, elevators, and similar. Just things like ambulances, firefighters and home waste removail are offered by Switzerland, usually for free as Campione is bankrupt and can't pay (but not the removal of construction waste and waste from fallen trees and similar, which apparently remain where it is). Swiss Post had to close its office, so to go to a post office locals have to cross four borders to go to Como (two to go there, and two to go back).

As there are no more supermarkets in Campione even buying food is diffucult. Apparently at least one man was forbidden to go to buy food (in Switzerland) because it is forbidden to quit Italy.

Luckily it seems that often citizens and even border guards do not respect the law, because doing it would mean commiting suicide.

Buses from Lugano now terminate just before the broder, making even more difficult living in Campione for those who don't have a car (Campione is on a steep hillside).

Until last year everyithing worked "perfectly" (without considering that most locals lost their jobs due to the closure of the casino), as Campione was Italian for legal things, and Swiss in practical life (post service, phone service, rescue services, car number plates, ...). But then some smart people decided that an enclave in a non-EU country has to be treated like any other municipality, and that's the result.

I doubt that Büsingen am Hochrein is treated so badly by Germany...









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.ch













Campione nella morsa dei limiti italiani e svizzeri


L'emergenza virus aggrava la situazione e il comitato civico scrive un accorato appello al commissario prefettizio e ai vertici della politica romana




www.laregione.ch













Per Campione 'salta' anche il bus con Lugano


Considerato un trasporto internazionale e nell'emergenza del covid-19 fermata unica all'arco d'entrata nell'enclave.




www.laregione.ch


----------



## italystf

I think Italy should give Campione to Switzerland and get in exchange a piece of Swiss land of the same size contiguous with Italy. Something like the recent India-Bangladesh agreement.
Or, as alternative, leave the borders as they are, and dig a tunnel to connect Campione with the rest of Italy at Lanzo d'Intelvi.


----------



## alserrod

Maybe because a 17th century treaty but in Llivia there's no problem








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





- All villages around an area passed from Spain to France. Llivia warned they weren't a village but a royal town. It was weird because accurate word is different in Spanish but the same in French... but they remained.
There was a special treaty. No border control (free pass) from Puigcerda to Llivia. 


Spain remained all controls in border... but it was entitled and they let to get into France (and again into Spain 3 km away) only to those citizens
There were claiming from Llivia citizens because free pass means no border control. Therefore, France allowed all Spanish plates cars to go through if they want. This is... if you had another car, passport control. If you had a Spanish car, you could ask for passport control or just go through... but providing you hadn't passport control, in the next cross you could take only Llivia direction. May you take another direction it would be illegal inmigration and smuggling

More traffic and some signs were set in the cross. Stop sign for the road coming from Llivia. It was always destroyed. Llivia citizens said they will not stop in the cross... they had free pass.... and... finally a roundabout was built and just yield.

Nowadays, despite border between France and Spain is controlled again due to closure, I have glanced there's a bus Llivia-Barcelona several times per week


----------



## tfd543

italystf said:


> I think Italy should give Campione to Switzerland and get in exchange a piece of Swiss land of the same size contiguous with Italy. Something like the recent India-Bangladesh agreement.
> Or, as alternative, leave the borders as they are, and dig a tunnel to connect Campione with the rest of Italy at Lanzo d'Intelvi.


Any pics of the New border crossing ?


----------



## Coccodrillo

It is still as it is in Google Maps, the only difference is that Swiss customs put a small stand with instructions on how to self-declare goods to be imported/exported (that is, everything except everyday objects you already own like smartphones or the car you travel with, and newly built things cheaper than ~300€ in total - there should be the standard limit of 10.000€ above which money has to be declared).

There are no border guards based there, from neither country.


----------



## Ingenioren

Here is another one, elderly couple meeting up at the Danish/German border


----------



## tfd543

Ingenioren said:


> Here is another one, elderly couple meeting up at the Danish/German border


Lol Yea I Saw that in TV2 news. Btw greetings from Cph.


----------



## tfd543

Coccodrillo said:


> It is still as it is in Google Maps, the only difference is that Swiss customs put a small stand with instructions on how to self-declare goods to be imported/exported (that is, everything except everyday objects you already own like smartphones or the car you travel with, and newly built things cheaper than ~300€ in total - there should be the standard limit of 10.000€ above which money has to be declared).
> 
> There are no border guards based there, from neither country.


What if nobody cares since there is no Police present?


----------



## alserrod

Is that really?. People cannot leave the country but can move for free in the country?


----------



## Verso

alserrod said:


> Llivia is the only Spanish exclave.
> There's one periclave (joined with territory but you may cross another country)
> 
> It is Os de Civis, joined with Andorra and, except the case you wanna cross summits in summer (impossible in winter), you may cross Andorra


It's good that you _may_ cross Andorra since you also _have to_ cross it.


----------



## alserrod

It is a periclave. You can go through mountains or via helicopter... Obviously 99,99% are through Andorra


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> Llivia is the only Spanish exclave.
> There's one periclave (joined with territory but you may cross another country)
> 
> It is Os de Civis, joined with Andorra and, except the case you wanna cross summits in summer (impossible in winter), you may cross Andorra
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Os de Civís · 25788, Lleida, Spain
> 
> 
> 25788, Lleida, Spain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I remember when Google was preparing all Andorran roads after they were accepted. At first... only road from border to Os de Civis appeared (located in Spain).
> Today, an Andorran sign points the border. Some years ago the only way to know you had crossed the border was... just some signs in a rest area made by Catalan government (thus out of Andorra).
> 
> AFAIK
> 
> 
> There's absolutely no border control. *It may be the only non-Schengen border without any control*
> There's no custom control. You can buy anything in Andorra and go to that village with it. This is.... Os de Civis may have a hotel and 120 people only. It doesn't worth to have an administration for taxes... they buy in Andorra without taxes.
> If you are in Os de Civis and you go over mountains... may you have something not declared it will be smuggling
> If you are in Os de Civis and you want to go to mainland you must enter in Andorra and cross again main border where you will be halted in customs and asked if you have something to declare.
> All services are supplied by Andorra. This is, they go to Andorran schools (or they can choose a Spanish school inside Andorra). Fire brigades, ambulances and so on are supplied by Andorra (and remember... non-Schengen border)
> May Spanish emergences wanna reach Os de Civis they are pass-free from border to the cross and go through. There are barely passport controls but they will never be asked in that situation.
> Police cannot cross Andorra on the other hand. That makes Os de Civis like a village "without law". I read once police had to reach, they used a helicopter
> And... a lot of tourists reach there without warning they have crossed border again.
> 
> Hotel and shops must have invoices with VAT and people working there are considered as working in Spanish system
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Os de Civís · 25788, Lleida, Spain
> 
> 
> 25788, Lleida, Spain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


There are at least other two non-Schengen borders without controls:

Croatian road across Slovenia
Estonian road across Russia


----------



## Verso

^ This road through Slovenia _and_ Croatia is also without any control, same as this road through a Croatian exclave right there. There is just one border checkpoint in that entire area. I think it's totally possible to drive between the two countries here without any control. And possibly here too.


----------



## Theijs

italystf said:


> There are at least a non-Schengen border without controls:
> [*]Croatian road across Slovenia


I think Google Maps might not have drawn the borderline correctly. That happens more often.
The entrance road to Croatia has a border control on satellite.


----------



## alserrod

In the SLO-HR road area I can see only Slovenian customs. Are there Croatian anywhere?

Nevertheless... Os de Civis has NOT any border control to reach a town. This is, in Russia or Slovenia you can go through but you will enter and exit to the same country.

Any Andorran can go for free to Os de Civis (and later he's entitled to go through mountains if possible... except in case of smuggling). Andorra has a crime rate strongly low but may anyone escapes to that village... it would be a nightmare to catch him.
Andorra has only two border passes, one to Spain, one to France. They barely control passports, not freight... but in case of needing, they will cut all traffic.


----------



## alserrod

And... an international NON-road.

It is not paved, you cannot drive through there... it starts in Portugal, cross Spain and ends in Portugal (different regions in Portugal indeed).

I bet it will be useful to be able to drive on









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


----------



## Kpc21

alserrod said:


> Any Andorran can go for free to Os de Civis


Isn't it like it's illegal but not enforced for practical reasons (including even the lack of a police station in Os)?


----------



## Verso

Theijs said:


> I think Google Maps might not have drawn the borderline correctly. That happens more often.
> The entrance road to Croatia has a border control on satellite.


The border is correctly drawn, but there are no signs for Slovenia when you drive there.



alserrod said:


> In the SLO-HR road area I can see only Slovenian customs. Are there Croatian anywhere?
> 
> Nevertheless... Os de Civis has NOT any border control to reach a town. This is, in Russia or Slovenia you can go through but you will enter and exit to the same country.


There is just one border checkpoint. You can go to Brezovica without any border control, but obviously that road to Os de Civís is not a road from Andorra to Andorra transiting Spain.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Google doesn't know this enclave. Quite absurd borders anyway, not as Baarle but still...



Kpc21 said:


> Isn't it like it's illegal but not enforced for practical reasons (including even the lack of a police station in Os)?


Usually places like this have a special status, and are considered like being in the other country for customs, like Campione was Swiss customs-wise until last year. Then there are other cases like Samnaun which is outside Swiss custom area but also outside Austrian custom area. In the case of Os de Civís alserrod already said it is like it is an Andorran municipality, for custom reasons. For legal matters it is different, for example if one is forbidden to enter Italy, he cannot enter Campione, even if this town was in the Swiss custom union (now it is fully Italian, although it is mad).


----------



## Verso

Coccodrillo said:


> Google doesn't know this enclave. Quite absurd borders anyway, not as Baarle but still...


The green areas are the Croatian position (some were accepted by the arbitration agreement, some weren't). There're actually two Croatian enclaves, maybe even three, I'm not sure. Maps of that area were particularly absurd. Slovenian maps were in favor of Croatia, and Croatian maps were in favor of Slovenia, understand if you can.

Anyway, this border crossing between Slovenia and Croatia is particularly weird. Looks like you can just bypass it.








Google Zemljevidi


V Google Zemljevidih poiščite lokalna podjetja, si oglejte zemljevide in pridobite navodila za vožnjo.




www.google.si


----------



## Verso

Verso said:


> There're actually two Croatian enclaves, maybe even three, I'm not sure.


Another thing about them: they are Croatian enclaves surrounded with a Slovenian pene-enclave.


----------



## italystf

I don't see any enclave there. Is this map correct or no?


----------



## Verso

^ No, that's a Slovenian map from before the arbitration agreement (and that thin line is just a border between different Slovenian properties/parcels, not a Croatian corridor).


This is the map of the border as the arbitration tribunal defined it (at least according to Slovenian cartographers since there is no map of this area in the arbitration decision, which is really weird).










Croatia doesn't respect the arbitration's decision, so this is Croatia's position. According to their map they have three exclaves. Apparently a small area northwest of the smallest Croatian exclave is a _terra nullius_. The Kingdom of Enclava can thus return.


----------



## Eulanthe

One thing isn't quite clear - is the Croatian village of Brezovica Žumberačka treated as being in Slovenia for the purposes of border control? I mean, if I go there, will I be breaking the law if I don't have permission from the Slovene and Croatian border police?


----------



## Verso

^ It all depends on road signs. Once I drove this way and there was no border checkpoint and no sign, which would prohibit you driving across the border, there were just signs _informing_ you about the border.


----------



## Eulanthe

Isn't that standard on the Slovenian border to have only the sign informing you about the border? I mean - this sign?










I mean, I understand the sign, but I've always thought this was the standard "don't cross here or else" sign?


----------



## Verso

^ In normal circumstances you're right, I wouldn't cross that sign, especially if I were on a footpath or a gravel road. But how am I supposed to get to a pene-enclave, not to mention an enclave, if there's no border checkpoint?

At first I drove to this border and it was clear that you weren't allowed to cross:


----------



## alserrod

Is there any historical reason for those enclaves?


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> Is there any historical reason for those enclaves?


It's because of various administrative decisions made in the 19th century, basically. If I remember rightly, Slovenia argues that the border in this area is based on the 1929 "banovina" boundaries (effectively provinces of Yugoslavia) while Croatia claims the border is based on cadastral records/boundaries dating from Austria-Hungary.

The problem is (as always in this part of the world) - despite the banovina boundaries being established and ratified in 1929-1931, the actual cadastral records were never actually transferred in some places. So, Croatia claims "uti possidetis" - as they've maintained the cadastral records up until 1991, they say that these areas are therefore under the jurisdiction of Zagreb, not Ljubljana.

Of course, had post-war Yugoslavia actually bothered to clearly define the boundaries between the individual republics, there would be none of this nonsense. They could have sorted all this out so that there weren't issues such as people living in Croatia and yet their front door opens into Slovenia - but they didn't feel the need to do anything as it was all one country anyway.

There are many examples of stupidity where the border is concerned, for instance here - the cafe is in Croatia, but the road is in Slovenia. I tried to go to the cafe from Croatia, but they made it clear that I had to go ino Slovenia and drive all the way round, as it wasn't possible to go there without entering Slovenian territory first. Yet there's a sign on the main Croatian road advertising it!

I asked in the bar what their address was, and apparently Croatia pretends that the road is theirs for administrative purposes - so the road (although Slovenian) also has a Croatian name.


----------



## Kpc21

Eulanthe said:


> It's because of various administrative decisions made in the 19th century, basically. If I remember rightly, Slovenia argues that the border in this area is based on the 1929 "banovina" boundaries (effectively provinces of Yugoslavia) while Croatia claims the border is based on cadastral records/boundaries dating from Austria-Hungary.


They could just make a referendum on in what country the specific village wants to be located... Of course it would have to be organized by an impartial side, like the United Nations.

This is the way some of the Polish south-western border was decided about after the WW1. In this case, it wasn't peaceful and finally even ended up with an uprising – but the world is richer with those experiences (and probably with experiences from many more similar referenda), so it's known what went wrong back then and what should be different.



Eulanthe said:


> There are many examples of stupidity where the border is concerned, for instance here - the cafe is in Croatia, but the road is in Slovenia. I tried to go to the cafe from Croatia, but they made it clear that I had to go ino Slovenia and drive all the way round, as it wasn't possible to go there without entering Slovenian territory first. Yet there's a sign on the main Croatian road advertising it!


It's so childish... "We are now a separate country, not Yugoslavia, so please respect our borders and go around (even if it makes no practical sense)".


----------



## Corvinus

Info from German Federal Police web site regarding prolongation of Schengen internal border controls:






Bundespolizei - Aktuelles - Corona-Virus: Fortsetzung der vorübergehenden Binnengrenzkontrollen bis zum 4. Mai


Bundesinnenminister Seehofer hat entschieden, die an den Binnengrenzen zu Österreich, der Schweiz, Frankreich, Luxemburg, Dänemark, Italien und Spanien vorübergehend wiedereingeführten Grenzkontrollen um weitere 20 Tage bis zum 4. Mai 2020 verlängern. So sollen die Infektionsgefahren durch das...




www.bundespolizei.de














Interesting 😁
EDIT - now I get it: Controls (and therefore this description) comprise not just land crossings, but also sea and air travel, where you can very well arrive directly from I / E. 
Still, the description sounds misleading ("Binnengrenzen zu ...... Italien, Spanien").


----------



## tfd543

Verso said:


> View attachment 81448


Basic wooden boom gate.. cant you just lift it up ?


----------



## Markowice10

There are various projects: To cross the border, after COVID-19, you will need a "health certificate".
Will the Schengen area return?


----------



## Luki_SL

^^The Schengen area already returned (...)


----------



## Proof Sheet

Verso said:


> ^ In normal circumstances you're right, I wouldn't cross that sign, especially if I were on a footpath or a gravel road. But how am I supposed to get to a pene-enclave, not to mention an enclave, if there's no border checkpoint?
> 
> At first I drove to this border and it was clear that you weren't allowed to cross:
> View attachment 81448


Where is this border ?


----------



## alserrod

Markowice10 said:


> There are various projects: To cross the border, after COVID-19, you will need a "health certificate".
> Will the Schengen area return?


Portuguese citizens can entry from France to go through to their country. They are warned no restaurants or rest stations are Open (fuel stations are open) but they can cross without problem


----------



## Verso

Proof Sheet said:


> Where is this border ?


Here, at the end of my trip.









od Brezovica pri Metliki do Malo Lešče







www.google.si


----------



## Proof Sheet

Verso said:


> Here, at the end of my trip.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> od Brezovica pri Metliki do Malo Lešče
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.si


Thanks for the update. A very interesting border area. I imagine it must be an absolute nightmare to figure out fire brigade/policing jurisdictions, which educational system children go to, etc.


----------



## Verso

^ And don't forget it's the external Schengen border. The arbitration tribunal's analysis is also interesting:



> The Tribunal recognizes that the delimitation thus made on the basis of the cadastral limits is one of great complexity. The cadastral boundary creates numerous meanders and even enclaves. It cuts the road of the Brezovica pri Metliki settlement several times. This is not without precedent, but may well lead to practical problems. While remaining aware of these difficulties, the Tribunal, in respect of the land boundary, is strictly bound to decide in accordance with international law, and not on the basis of (its understanding of) what may be practical or convenient. It will therefore be up to the Parties either to agree on an adjustment or to find other ways to resolve those problems in a spirit of friendly cooperation.





https://www.gov.si/assets/vlada/Projekti/Arbitraza/Dokumenti/Arbitrazna-razsodba/99e9b8fa33/Izrek-razsodbe-arbitraznega-sodisca-v-zvezi-z-mejo-med-Hrvasko-in-Slovenijo.pdf


----------



## Penn's Woods

Verso said:


> ^ No, that's a Slovenian map from before the arbitration agreement (and that thin line is just a border between different Slovenian properties/parcels, not a Croatian corridor).
> 
> 
> This is the map of the border as the arbitration tribunal defined it (at least according to Slovenian cartographers since there is no map of this area in the arbitration decision, which is really weird).
> View attachment 81264
> 
> 
> 
> Croatia doesn't respect the arbitration's decision, so this is Croatia's position. According to their map they have three exclaves. Apparently a small area northwest of the smallest Croatian exclave is a _terra nullius_. The Kingdom of Enclava can thus return.
> View attachment 81300


Baarle in the Balkans.


----------



## Attus

It's funny that this part of HR-SLO border is a very historical one: it was basically the border between the Holy Roman Empire and Croatia more than a millenium ago, and has been a border sonce than, apart from the Yugoslav age.


----------



## Verso

Penn's Woods said:


> Baarle in the Balkans.


And with a _terra nullius_! (fluorescent green)


----------



## italystf

The Croatian village of Brašljevica seems to be a pene-exclave, as the only road to/from it passes through Slovenia.








Node: ‪Brašljevica‬ (‪3065387538‬) | OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


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## alserrod

This lake is almost a pene-enclave









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





I have walked around it once and I remember to be besides a sign that means you were in France (this is, it is quite difficult to be absolutely besides water, there are some rocks and in the northern side, path goes absolutely in the border).

Have a look to Candanchu. It is a ski resort. Alpine ski area is in Spain, cross-country ski is 90% in France but there are some paths that entry in Spain (I remember posting street view pictures about where it would be border crossing in the snow but they aren't available right now!).

Nevertheless, it is almost impossible to go from Candanchu to Estanes without entering in France because the mountain.

There's a Pyrenees high-trekking path called GR-11 that was the first signaled in Spain. It gets through Andorra and sometimes inside France. This is one out of those cases.

The other way to arrive there is walking.... from Siresa. It is the natural valley. Northern a camping you can reach by car but you may stop there.



The point is... Spanish army has mountain school in Jaca and a second residence between Candanchu and Canfranc. They make operations within the area but you will never see them in Estanes. Obviously it is Schengen area but army soldiers with uniform aren't welcome to cross a border


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## Verso

italystf said:


> The Croatian village of Brašljevica seems to be a pene-exclave, as the only road to/from it passes through Slovenia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Node: ‪Brašljevica‬ (‪3065387538‬) | OpenStreetMap
> 
> 
> OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.openstreetmap.org


Yes, although the border isn't correct in OSM. According to the arbitration they drew it in a way that the Croatian corridor is wider. You can see it in GMaps: the green area east of the border is supposed to be Croatia. Even on Slovenian maps it wasn't clear where it ran. Take a look here: when you zoom in enough, the Croatian corridor gets wider.





Geopedia - interaktivni spletni atlas in zemljevid Slovenije







www.geopedia.si





And these poor people should be given a bridge over that narrow river:








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


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## cymru1

Bulgaria. Kalotina border crossing reconstruction works started.

Photos thanks to *7588*




7588 said:


> Последните са от ремонта на КПП-то, доста бараки са изринали:
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## Eulanthe

Kpc21 said:


> They could just make a referendum on in what country the specific village wants to be located... Of course it would have to be organized by an impartial side, like the United Nations.


It would probably be better to do it house-by-house, but both sides have reasons not to agree to it. For instance, Slovenia is still in control of this ex-Yugoslav army base: Sveta Gera - Wikipedia - and they don't want to give it up. They don't really use the base in any meaningful way anymore, but it's become a bargaining chip. Likewise, Croatia is stubbornly trying to refuse Slovenia direct access to international waters, for a reason that no-one can quite understand. 

This is one of my favourite places - I can't find my pictures now, but here's an example of a house that you can only access from Slovenia - if you're coming from the local Croatian town of Strigova, you need to cross the border to get to your house: OpenStreetMap

And nearby here, you can see how the situation developed. I'm not sure if I remember the story correctly, but this is how it was explained to me - the houses on the Croatian side (but before the now-abandoned Croatian checkpoint) are homes of ethnic Slovenes, and they get their services from Slovenia, not Croatia. That's why the Croatian checkpoint was located away from the border, as it allowed the inhabitants of those houses to go freely to/from Slovenia without having to pass through Croatian border control. 



> It's so childish... "We are now a separate country, not Yugoslavia, so please respect our borders and go around (even if it makes no practical sense)".


A lot of it came from typical immature nation building in the 1990's, and then as Slovenia was moving very quickly towards the EU, they had to put in EU standards for border defences even though it made no sense there. I asked in that Zeko cafe about it, and they said that before Slovenia joined Schengen, no-one really cared about the border, but then afterwards, it became a much bigger deal. They have to import their supplies from Croatia, not Slovenia, for instance.


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## MacOlej

alserrod said:


> There's a Pyrenees high-trekking path called GR-11 that was the first signaled in Spain. It gets through Andorra and sometimes inside France. This is one out of those cases.


I think it happens more often in the mountains, especially if a trail follows a ridge which happens to be the border. 
For example some Polish trails in the Tatra mountains go through Slovakia so you could have semi-legally crossed the border even before EU and Schengen zone:









OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


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## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> It would probably be better to do it house-by-house, but both sides have reasons not to agree to it. For instance, Slovenia is still in control of this ex-Yugoslav army base: Sveta Gera - Wikipedia - and they don't want to give it up. They don't really use the base in any meaningful way anymore, but it's become a bargaining chip. Likewise, Croatia is stubbornly trying to refuse Slovenia direct access to international waters, for a reason that no-one can quite understand.
> 
> This is one of my favourite places - I can't find my pictures now, but here's an example of a house that you can only access from Slovenia - if you're coming from the local Croatian town of Strigova, you need to cross the border to get to your house: OpenStreetMap
> 
> And nearby here, you can see how the situation developed. I'm not sure if I remember the story correctly, but this is how it was explained to me - the houses on the Croatian side (but before the now-abandoned Croatian checkpoint) are homes of ethnic Slovenes, and they get their services from Slovenia, not Croatia. That's why the Croatian checkpoint was located away from the border, as it allowed the inhabitants of those houses to go freely to/from Slovenia without having to pass through Croatian border control.
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of it came from typical immature nation building in the 1990's, and then as Slovenia was moving very quickly towards the EU, they had to put in EU standards for border defences even though it made no sense there. I asked in that Zeko cafe about it, and they said that before Slovenia joined Schengen, no-one really cared about the border, but then afterwards, it became a much bigger deal. They have to import their supplies from Croatia, not Slovenia, for instance.


Those people are indeed mostly ethnic Slovenes. They can move to Slovenia with the state's subsidy, if they wish. They built their houses in times of Yugoslavia. But I still find it stupid. Why would you build your house in Croatia, but have all your business in Slovenia? Regardless, if they are independent or not.



MacOlej said:


> I think it happens more often in the mountains, especially if a trail follows a ridge which happens to be the border.
> For example some Polish trails in the Tatra mountains go through Slovakia so you could have semi-legally crossed the border even before EU and Schengen zone:
> 
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> OpenStreetMap
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> OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.
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> www.openstreetmap.org


I remember I was walking once along the Slovenian-Austrian border in the mountains in 1990s. If I remember correctly, it said at one place you were allowed to cross the border, if you were back where you crossed it by 10 pm or something like that.


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## Theijs

Drone movie of M4/A3 border check-point between Hu and RO. When will it open?


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## Adrian.02

Probably in July,if both the sides finish the motorway


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## g.spinoza

What's the point of a border check-point between two EU countries, both of which will eventually join Schengen?


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## bogdymol

Ask some EU countries which do not accept Romania and Bulgaria in Schengen.


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## bogdymol

Adrian.02 said:


> Probably in July,if both the sides finish the motorway


On the Romanian side it will probably take a couple of months more.


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## parcdesprinces

g.spinoza said:


> both of which will eventually join Schengen?


Hope they won't personally..

 :


bogdymol said:


> Ask *some EU countries* which *do not accept Romania and Bulgaria in Schengen*.


Indeed. (at least not anytime soon hopefully)



P.S. just must my humble & personal opinion of course (as a French taxpayer/etc). 🙂 :grouphug:


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## Adrian.02

g.spinoza said:


> What's the point of a border check-point between two EU countries, both of which will eventually join Schengen?


Hungary has been in Schengen since 2007!!


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## Adrian.02

parcdesprinces said:


> Indeed. (at least not anytime soon hopefully)
> P.S. just must my humble & personal opinion of course (as a French taxpayer/etc). 🙂 :grouphug:


That is a very sad mentality.Not all romanians are criminals of thiefs,some will take advantage of the Schengen space in order to commute faster to their workplace,or even travel more often.
We just want to be in Schengen so we do not have to see all those loooong border waiting times in the summer,when the romanians who legally work abroad come home.


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## parcdesprinces

Adrian.02 said:


> That is a very sad mentality.


Yep, I know... 🙁 (I mean, I had a very different "mentality" before.. but our world -Europe included- has changed unfortunately since then). 

Anyway, as I said above, this is just me/my personal i.e. non-important thoughts.. which also means that if they decided tomorrow to enlarge the Schengen area again..= "OK then, so be it!" I mean, I won't lose any sleep about that, nor protest.


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## g.spinoza

Adrian.02 said:


> Hungary has been in Schengen since 2007!!


I know, I was referring to Romania.
I said "both" just to stress that they won't need a checkpoint.


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## Theijs

> When will these two EU countries, BG+RO join Schengen?


Perhaps once an expressway from Romania (Lugoj /Calafat) via Bulgaria to Greece is is ready?


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## Eulanthe

Theijs said:


> Drone movie of M4/A3 border check-point between Hu and RO. When will it open?


I see it's been designed so that traffic can be immediately re-routed through the middle if Romania joins Schengen, without having to demolish anything.


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## Eulanthe

Something strange that I noticed from 3 months ago: 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1233854058160676864 - this is a tweet by the President of North Cyprus, talking about the removal of identity checks when leaving the territory controlled by the Republic of Cyprus at the Kermiya-Metehan crossing. It's strange, because from videos online, it seems that there are no identity checks carried out on exit at this point -yet at other points such as at Ledra Palace and Ledra Street, there are exit checks.


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## adam79

Ferry terminal in Gdynia (Gdynia - Karlskrona line)

Ferry terminal Gdynia by Adam, on Flickr


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## Džiugas

Lithuania fully opens border with Latvia with normal pre-COVID Schengen order.


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## alserrod

Spain will not ask for quarantine or test results since July 1st


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## Adrian.02

alserrod said:


> Spain will not ask for quarantine or test results since July 1st


Thanks for sharing this piece of information!I'm supposed to travel to Spain on the 5th,so this lift of restrictions is more than welcome.


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## ionutzyankoo

parcdesprinces said:


> Yep, I know...  (I mean, I had a very different "mentality" before.. but our world -Europe included- has changed unfortunately since then).
> 
> Anyway, as I said above, this is just me/my personal i.e. non-important thoughts.. which also means that if they decided tomorrow to enlarge the Schengen area again..= "OK then, so be it!" I mean, I won't lose any sleep about that, nor protest.


Just as curiosity, may I ask what are your biggest “fears” should România join Schengen area. As far as I see it no change will really happen to present Schengen countries, except skipping a border control when entering RO.
Merci!


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## parcdesprinces

ionutzyankoo said:


> Just as curiosity, may I ask what are your biggest “fears” should România join Schengen area.


To be honest,my _biggest "fears",_ as you say, are certainly not about Romania/Bulgaria/etc entering (& certainly not about the Romaniain & Bulgarian people).. but simply about the EU itself... so Schengen + the so called (& costly) very efficient (LOL) Frontex included... etc...



= 👍👍 LOL












...


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## ChrisZwolle

A sentiment under the populists in the Netherlands is that Romania and Bulgaria are not EU-worthy countries and admitting them was a mistake, so they want to block Schengen admission as well. While they are not actually in government, politicians feel the pressure to not go easy on EU expansion plans.

They always say that migrants from Eastern Europe are 'stealing Dutch jobs', but the sad reality is that no Dutch worker wants to work in those jobs: agriculture, processing plants, distribution & logistics. Every plan to get long-term unemployed people to work in those companies failed. They just don't show up. Eastern European migrant workers do show up and work without complaining or calling in sick after their first day on the job. The Netherlands has large industries that couldn't exist on Dutch workforce, they need migrant workers. The living conditions are improving, but slowly.


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## alserrod

Adrian.02 said:


> Thanks for sharing this piece of information!I'm supposed to travel to Spain on the 5th,so this lift of restrictions is more than welcome.



Don't mention it. Will you arrive by car or by plane?

May I help you in any niceties due to all change we have had in these times?


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## Kpc21

ChrisZwolle said:


> the sad reality is that no Dutch worker wants to work in those jobs: agriculture, processing plants, distribution & logistics


Well, if the employers providing those workplaces paid appropriately more, Dutch candidates for them would appear. But the goods and services they produce would also get correspondingly more expensive.


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## kokomo

Is the Croatian case similar to those of Romania or Bulgaria for example?


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## ionutzyankoo

ChrisZwolle said:


> A sentiment under the populists in the Netherlands is that Romania and Bulgaria are not EU-worthy countries and admitting them was a mistake, so they want to block Schengen admission as well. While they are not actually in government, politicians feel the pressure to not go easy on EU expansion plans.
> 
> They always say that migrants from Eastern Europe are 'stealing Dutch jobs', but the sad reality is that no Dutch worker wants to work in those jobs: agriculture, processing plants, distribution & logistics. Every plan to get long-term unemployed people to work in those companies failed. They just don't show up. Eastern European migrant workers do show up and work without complaining or calling in sick after their first day on the job. The Netherlands has large industries that couldn't exist on Dutch workforce, they need migrant workers. The living conditions are improving, but slowly.


The sad truth is that we would need those guys working in those factories in Western Europe for the factories here, same thing valid for people taking care of elderly or even for physicians but how to bring them back? România is starting to be full of Sri Lankan, Pakistani, Indian or Vietnamese but not only because Romanians don’t want their jobs, it’s just because the country is in a deep depopulation tendency.
And about the fact that these countries were not prepared joining the EU, it is correct, but which of the Eastern European countries were fully prepared at the moment of joining? It’s easy for those politicians to yell bull shit but they did not live under a communist regime for 50 years.

Close the off topic!


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## Adrian.02

alserrod said:


> Don't mention it. Will you arrive by car or by plane?
> 
> May I help you in any niceties due to all change we have had in these times?


I will arrive by plane,in the Balearic Islands.


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## Ingenioren

Tyslingmoen border Norway - Sweden:
2020-05-28_08-39-08 by André Wauthier, on Flickr

Altough the border is closed, there are no one here to enforce.

Going up the "border street"
2020-05-28_08-39-30 by André Wauthier, on Flickr

The border runs in strait line between the cairns:
2020-05-28_08-40-32 by André Wauthier, on Flickr

The border runs where the trees and bushes have been removed, the tip of this small peninsula is in Sweden
2020-05-28_08-41-42 by André Wauthier, on Flickr


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## PovilD

Ingenioren said:


> Tyslingmoen border Norway - Sweden:
> 2020-05-28_08-39-08 by André Wauthier, on Flickr


Norway with such profits from oil has worse road than slighty "not as rich" Sweden?

Rhetoric question though. I heard Norway is careful with spending money on things.


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## ChrisZwolle

It can also be the other way around 


Länsväg 336-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


Länsväg 336-10 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Kpc21

PovilD said:


> Norway with such profits from oil has worse road than slighty "not as rich" Sweden?


Maybe the Swedish one was recently in a worse condition and they finally had to renew it, while the Norwegian one is not being renewed as it's still pretty good? Maybe it isn't very even – but it doesn't have potholes.


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## Ingenioren

Well it is a very insignificant road for either country, overall Sweden does have better road standard than Norway, but Norway has insane amounts of tunneling and bridging due to challenging geography and the wish to keep every corner of the country populated, occasionally you will get a megaproject for 30 houses and such.


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## ChrisZwolle

It is reported that Belgium has reopened the borders with the Netherlands. The situation is criticized in parts of the Netherlands for a total lack of communication. They say that interagency meetings are pretty much pointless since nobody seems to know what the situation is. 

An article about it (in Dutch):









'Slechte communicatie rondom grensopening is typisch voor situatie in België'


Hoe kon het nou toch gebeuren dat het nieuws van gisteren, dat de grenzen weer open zijn, als een verrassing kwam voor de Nederlanders, maar ook voor de Belgen zelf? Volgens Evert van Wijk, die veel schreef over cultuurverschillen tussen Nederland en België, ligt dat aan hoe anders de landen...




www.omroepzeeland.nl





To translate some parts:

_According to Van Wijk, the difference can be clearly seen if you compare the press conferences of both countries. "In the Netherlands there is one person who takes the floor, usually Prime Minister Rutte, who tells us that we have to do it together. In Belgium you have press conferences with fifteen people and nobody understands. Even the own government often does not understand", says Van Wijk. "In talk shows on Belgian television, you saw ministers who no longer even knew what had been agreed." 

Jan Lonink of the Zeeland Safety Region therefore has reservations about the many consultations between the countries. "I have learned in the meantime that the consultation with Belgian colleagues is of no value. The mayors do not have an information position there as it is here in the Netherlands." Most decisions are taken there at a national level._


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## eucitizen

I found videos of a bealorusian truck driver who films borders during the coronavirus lockdown. His main route is Lithuania- Poland-Germany- Belgium -France and back.
Here there is the link: Толя Минский
In the video dated 29/05/2020 you can see there are no more german boder controls coimng from Belgium. On the other side Belgium still checks. The same you can see from Poland to Germany, where Germans never made controls. Another interesting things is that the truck drivers can freely pass without any harassement, exception Lithuanian border, where they measure the temperature. Last curiosity, when watching the videos of PL-LT border, you can see Poland demolished the old border infrastructure.


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## Adrian.02

The border crossing between Beba Veche(RO) and Kübekháza(HU),is being discussed again.
Hopefully it will be done.


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## Eulanthe

eucitizen said:


> Last curiosity, when watching the videos of PL-LT border, you can see Poland demolished the old border infrastructure.


This is really strange. The infrastructure there was modern, and I don't understand why they demolished it. I'm quite sentimental about this place, because it's the first place I ever visited in Poland on a very dark and cold winter night in February.


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## eucitizen

Eulanthe said:


> This is really strange. The infrastructure there was modern, and I don't understand why they demolished it. I'm quite sentimental about this place, because it's the first place I ever visited in Poland on a very dark and cold winter night in February.


Probably it was useless for any purpose, except for border controls. Probably there will be a petrol station and some toher amenities. 
Also keep on mind that Poland is building an expressway to the border and for that they did. Our polish forumers can know more.
It will be interesting to see what will happen with the lithuanian border building as they plan to build too a motorway.


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## MacOlej

Correct, it will be turned into a rest stop (MOP):


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## ChrisZwolle

Austria will end all border controls except with Italy from tomorrow 4 June:









Grenzen: Öffnung zu allen Nachbarn außer Italien


Die Regierung hat am Mittwoch angekündigt, die Grenzen zu allen Nachbarstaaten bis auf Italien vollständig zu öffnen. „Die Zahlen lassen das mit Italien noch nicht zu“, so ÖVP-Außenminister Alexander Schallenberg. An den anderen Grenzen werden die Gesundheits- und Grenzkontrollen am Donnerstag...




orf.at





Italy has opened its borders. A Dutch member of _Wegenforum_ has traveled to Italy today. He said you had to sign a declaration when entering Austria that you are in transit and will not stop. There are no border controls going into Italy at the Brenner Pass.


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## ChrisZwolle

Spain will open the borders to tourism on 22 June, which is earlier than the 1st of July that was communicated earlier.









Spanish minister says land borders to open, prompts confusion


Spain played down the possibility of reopening its land borders on June 22 after a government minister announced earlier on Thursday it would do so, prompting confusion in neighbouring Portugal, which asked for clarification.




www.reuters.com





_Maroto told reporters that Spain would probably lift quarantine for people coming in by land from France and Portugal then, but added that was yet to be approved._


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## alserrod

Alarm situation ends on June 21st. 
President said he's not on the way to enlarge that period but to have specific laws for mobility, health and so on.

Nowadays it is allowed to move only inside each territory or within a territory "located in phase 3". That means only moving from El Hierro and La Gomera island is allowed (they do not have direct ferry nor plane though). The other two islands... doesn't have airport
But, starting this Monday at least half of the country will be on Phase 3. We will know exact territories tomorrow but... you could go from Teruel to Santiago providing it is via Bilbao... even Guadalajara-Daroca-Zaragoza-Bilbao-Santiago will be allowed.
Next week, more territories will be in phase 3.
Monday 22nd, alarm situation will be off, all movements will be allowed even if still in phase 2. It is when borders will open.

Just be awared that a Phase 2 territory could have some restrictions on shops, restaurants and so on


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## alserrod

Regarding International border crossing
Starting on July 1st... I am not 100% sure but

Spain - Morocco

Algeciras - Tanger Med, 5x daily
Motril - Al-Hoceima 2x weekly
Almeria - Nador 3x weekly
Malaga - Nador 3x weekly

Spain - Algeria
Almeria - Oran 1x weekly
Almeria - Gazhaouet (still without operations)


Tickets are on sold via online. You can buy in any company webpage, never mind if it is that one who operates the route or not.


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## Slovenia_

From tommorow on also the *Austrian* residents can enter to Slovenia without any restriction. On the list are already Croatia and Hungary.


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## cougar1989

I am asking me when I can enter Slovenia as a German without restriction. At 2nd July I come from South France via Italy to Slovenia. I will stay a night at Ljubljana at a hotel. 
At the moment I can enter Slovenia as a German if I have booked a night at a hotel. I don't know if it could be a problem at the Italian-Slovenian Border. I have a bit fear that the Slovenian Police would say, you was at Italy, you can not enter the country. I hope know a bit more after the 15th or 20th June.


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## alserrod

ChrisZwolle said:


> Spain will open the borders to tourism on 22 June, which is earlier than the 1st of July that was communicated earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spanish minister says land borders to open, prompts confusion
> 
> 
> Spain played down the possibility of reopening its land borders on June 22 after a government minister announced earlier on Thursday it would do so, prompting confusion in neighbouring Portugal, which asked for clarification.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Maroto told reporters that Spain would probably lift quarantine for people coming in by land from France and Portugal then, but added that was yet to be approved._



To be accurate, borders will open only by road and with France and Portugal on June 22nd.
By plane/ferries on July 1st


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## Slovenia_

cougar1989 said:


> not enter the country. I hope know a bit more after the 15th or 20th June.


If you have reservation in hotel you can enter without any problem. The only thing is that you will have to show reservation paper to the border control. And it does not matter if you are coming to Slovenia from Austria or Italy.


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## eucitizen

Today Czech Republic opened borders with Germany, Austia and Hungary. With Slovakia they opened yesterday. They plan to open the borders for the whole EU on 15. June. They made 3 lists of countries, no risks, moderate risks and high risk of infection. Here is the map: Semafor-vstup_do_CR_po_15-06-2020_-_20200604.jpg - Ministerstvo vnitra České republiky . People coming from the orange countries have to have a negative test to covid. People from red countries are barred to enter CZ. They update the mapp quite often. For example Luxembourg was put yesterday on the green list, from the orange one.
Today Slovakia and Hungary opened their borders to citizens of Austria, Czech rep., Slovakia and Hungary and other nationalities who have a residence permit in one of these countries.
Apart Austria, for now no news if Hungary or Slovakia will open to the whole EU in mid of June.


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## ChrisZwolle

Switzerland will open its borders to travelers from all Schengen / EFTA countries by 15 June, not just France, Germany and Austria as was reported earlier.





__





Coronavirus: Die Schweiz öffnet die Grenze zu allen EU/EFTA-Staaten am 15. Juni


Aktuelle Informationen aus der Verwaltung. Alle Medienmitteilungen der Bundesverwaltung, der Departemente und Ämter.




www.admin.ch


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> A sentiment under the populists in the Netherlands is that Romania and Bulgaria are not EU-worthy countries and admitting them was a mistake, so they want to block Schengen admission as well. While they are not actually in government, politicians feel the pressure to not go easy on EU expansion plans.
> 
> They always say that migrants from Eastern Europe are 'stealing Dutch jobs', but the sad reality is that no Dutch worker wants to work in those jobs: agriculture, processing plants, distribution & logistics. Every plan to get long-term unemployed people to work in those companies failed. They just don't show up. Eastern European migrant workers do show up and work without complaining or calling in sick after their first day on the job. The Netherlands has large industries that couldn't exist on Dutch workforce, they need migrant workers. The living conditions are improving, but slowly.


I thought your unemployment, pre-coronavirus, was tiny anyway. Whose jobs are they stealing?
(And you want “among,” not “under.”)


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> It is reported that Belgium has reopened the borders with the Netherlands. The situation is criticized in parts of the Netherlands for a total lack of communication. They say that interagency meetings are pretty much pointless since nobody seems to know what the situation is.
> 
> An article about it (in Dutch):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Slechte communicatie rondom grensopening is typisch voor situatie in België'
> 
> 
> Hoe kon het nou toch gebeuren dat het nieuws van gisteren, dat de grenzen weer open zijn, als een verrassing kwam voor de Nederlanders, maar ook voor de Belgen zelf? Volgens Evert van Wijk, die veel schreef over cultuurverschillen tussen Nederland en België, ligt dat aan hoe anders de landen...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.omroepzeeland.nl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To translate some parts:
> 
> _According to Van Wijk, the difference can be clearly seen if you compare the press conferences of both countries. "In the Netherlands there is one person who takes the floor, usually Prime Minister Rutte, who tells us that we have to do it together. In Belgium you have press conferences with fifteen people and nobody understands. Even the own government often does not understand", says Van Wijk. "In talk shows on Belgian television, you saw ministers who no longer even knew what had been agreed."
> 
> Jan Lonink of the Zeeland Safety Region therefore has reservations about the many consultations between the countries. "I have learned in the meantime that the consultation with Belgian colleagues is of no value. The mayors do not have an information position there as it is here in the Netherlands." Most decisions are taken there at a national level._


I was seeing headlines a few days ago about Belgians teaching the French border, since their government had told them they could go to France, only to be turned back.


----------



## Kpc21

eucitizen said:


> Here is the map: Semafor-vstup_do_CR_po_15-06-2020_-_20200604.jpg - Ministerstvo vnitra České republiky


Quite interesting that Poland is green with still high infection rates.

Anyway, for now we aren't able to go to Czech Republic anyway because we have to undergo a quarantine upon the return.

Although in the current situation it doesn't make any sense.


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

ChrisZwolle said:


> A sentiment under the populists in the Netherlands is that Romania and Bulgaria are not EU-worthy countries and admitting them was a mistake, so they want to block Schengen admission as well. While they are not actually in government, politicians feel the pressure to not go easy on EU expansion plans. They always say that *migrants from Eastern Europe are 'stealing Dutch jobs'*, but the sad reality is that no Dutch worker wants to work in those jobs: agriculture, processing plants, distribution & logistics. Every plan to get long-term unemployed people to work in those companies failed. They just don't show up. Eastern European migrant workers do show up and work without complaining or calling in sick after their first day on the job. The Netherlands has large industries that couldn't exist on Dutch workforce, they need migrant workers. The living conditions are improving, but slowly.


*NOBODY* can stop a Romanian or a Bulgarian citizen to travel to the Netherlands and to find a job there. The only consequence of the inconsequent Dutch foreign policy are traffic jams at EU borders between Greece and Bulgaria, Bulgaria and Romania, Romania and Hungary, Hungary and Croatia, Slovenia and Croatia. Wasted time for Millions of people year after year. I just hope Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia will find a way to block some Dutch EU initiative at the right moment.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

SevenSlavicTribes said:


> I just hope Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia will find a way to block some Dutch EU initiative at the right moment.


Don't worry, these parties actually want to leave the EU.


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

ChrisZwolle said:


> Don't worry, these parties actually want to leave the EU.


I don't see the Netherlands leaving the EU, so the political blockade will remain and so will the traffic jams at the EU borders mentioned above.
But maybe the Dutch have another reason for the blockade. With Bulgaria and Romania outside Schengen illegal immigrants cannot cross that easy from Greece into Western Europe. And there are lot of them...

The Dutch, the French and the Germans are using the 3 Balkan EU members and their border control as a barrier.
For the very same reason the UK and Ireland never joined Schengen.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Austria will end all border controls except with Italy from tomorrow 4 June:


They should open the border at least to locals. The two Italian regions who have border crossings with Austria (Friuli Venezia Giulia and Trentino Alto Adige) have very few new infections.


----------



## Corvinus

Funny how that Italian map (and many others) say "walls" where the actual structure is a mesh fence (or two) toppled with concertina wire ...



SevenSlavicTribes said:


> But maybe the Dutch have another reason for the blockade. With Bulgaria and Romania outside Schengen illegal immigrants cannot cross that easy from Greece into Western Europe. And there are lot of them...


That's for sure one main reason nowadays. Many in the West won't trust the capacity and capability of RO / BG to protect the external border once they are the Schengen area's southeastern outpost. But as we saw with Germany in 2015, all capacity and capability is futile if the leader believes she acts for the common good by repeatedly telling the world her country does not set any limit for the admission of "shelter seekers", and when she deliberately refuses to turn back obvious illegals (those with a pending asylum request in another EU country and legally required to remain there) at the border.


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

Corvinus said:


> Funny how that Italian map (and many others) say "walls" where the actual structure is a mesh fence (or two) toppled with concertina wire ...
> 
> 
> That's for sure one main reason nowadays. *Many in the West won't trust the capacity and capability of RO / BG to protect the external border once they are the Schengen area's southeastern outpost. *But as we saw with Germany in 2015, all capacity and capability is futile if the leader believes she acts for the common good by repeatedly telling the world her country does not set any limit for the admission of "shelter seekers", and when she deliberately refuses to turn back obvious illegals (those with a pending asylum request in another EU country and legally required to remain there) at the border.


Because the Greeks, Italians and Spanish perfectly protect the Schengen borders. I'm laughing.

Bulgarian-Turkish border


----------



## Corvinus

Well, have any European politician show a strong resolve to contain illegal immigration (e.g., Salvini in Italy), and he will be relentlessly lashed at by the "do-gooders", with many of those voices coming from Brussels. The fish is rotting from the head down. Under these conditions, one can never blame the external border countries alone for "failure to protect" the border. 
Greece could have sure done better in 2015, but they were also dealing with the (unnecessary) effect created by the German government's Willkommenskultur, interpreted by many as an invitation. As were all other countries on the "Balkan route", including Hungary with about 400'000 illegal crossings before completion of the southern fence.


----------



## Eulanthe

Kpc21 said:


> Anyway, for now we aren't able to go to Czech Republic anyway because we have to undergo a quarantine upon the return.


Interesting technical point: I was in Kowary over the weekend, and I went to the Przelęcz Okraj/Pomezní Boudy crossing to see what was happening. No sign of any Polish guards (though apparently they had just left), but the Czech army told us that according to Czech law, we could cross the border there. They have border crossing facilities set up, and that if we wanted to cross, they would call the police to come and perform the actual ID check.


----------



## Kpc21

There were already cases of Polish tourists who accidentally crossed the border with Slovakia on a mountain trail, and there was no mercy for them – they had to undergo a 2-week quarantine. Even though they were in Slovakia for just a moment.


----------



## alserrod

The same with two French people (older than 50) who went high mountain in a national Park. They had an accident and had to be rescued with a helicopter.
Rescue is for free but they were fined to cross the border (they knew clearly they will cross the border for the trekking they were planning)


----------



## Džiugas

SevenSlavicTribes said:


> The only consequence of the inconsequent Dutch foreign policy are traffic jams at EU borders between Greece and Bulgaria, Bulgaria and Romania, Romania and Hungary, Hungary and Croatia, Slovenia and Croatia. Wasted time for Millions of people year after year. I just hope Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia will find a way to block some Dutch EU initiative at the right moment.


Couldn't Romania and Bulgaria open their own internal border to make a 'small Schengen'?

By the way, today *Lithuanian-Polish* border went full Schengen again.


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

Theijs said:


> Bulgarian agriculture minister caught on video acknowledging EU funds fraud
> So where is the self introspection?
> The Bulgarian minister of agriculture doesn’t create any confidence.
> Same for Poland that breaks the ‘Trias Politica’ or Hungary sliding into a ‘Frankenstein’ state.
> That has nothing to do with nasty Dutch and French national politics, but *European Values* that new EU member states don’t apply.
> Perhaps we can go back to the topic: road infrastructure and borders.
> I would love to see the new EU member states join Schengen, but unfortunate I don’t see happen any time soon.


Former French PM Fillon and wife to stand corruption trial


----------



## bogdymol

EU is doing something good: a website showing all updated travel restrictions within the EU: *reopen.europa.eu*


----------



## Kpc21

But isn't it up to the country, who can be its citizen?



bogdymol said:


> EU is doing something good: a website showing all updated travel restrictions within the EU: *reopen.europa.eu*


This seems to be great but I wonder if it will be updated on time.

Well, I checked and...










Which seems to be just wrong.

Although now some media say that Poles can enter Slovakia for at max 48 hours – but it isn't backed with any sources, the articles are based on people's experiences.

If we want to enter Slovakia for a longer period, it seems we need to have a negative coronavirus test from no more than 96 hours before entering Slovakia, otherwise, such a Pole can get a 1600 euro fine.

Anyway, a 48-hour limit of the stay rather shouldn't count as "free movement"...

I found an official message of the Polish government, from today: https://www.gov.pl/web/slowacja/nad...ny-przejazd-polskich-obywateli-przez-slowacje

It says that entry to Slovakia is not allowed for neither touristic, nor business purposes, the only exception is transit to return to Poland (for all Polish citizens) or all other transit – the latter only with a special consent from Slovak authorities.

So the EU website lies.


----------



## Theijs

SevenSlavicTribes said:


> Former French PM Fillon and wife to stand corruption trial


And, will the Bulgarian minister be prosecuted?
I still don’t see any self reflection, only a pointing at others...


----------



## alserrod

As an exemption, Mallorca island is open since today for tourism. A weird situation after you can go from some country to that island (only that island, not full Balearic islands) and you may have a reason to move from the rest of Spain. It will be for 6 days only (all restrictions will be down since next Sunday)

Tomorrow morning, four planes coming from Germany scheduled.

I have glanced airport rules

all baggage to some specific desks
all movement will be using gates and areas dedicated for intra-Balearic flights due to they have infrastructure for controls

and they remember to glance official information about public transport once you arrive to airport

Next Sunday it is supposed not to have any restriction within Schengen area except with Portugal


----------



## kokomo

Kpc21 said:


> And what's wrong about that? To me it's rather obvious that if I can confirm that in some way I am a legal citizen of the country X, I have right to get and possess its passport and to travel using it.
> 
> @kokomo being the best example, as he just went through this path and living in South America (Argentina, if I am not mistaken), he managed to confirm his Polish citizenship, and looking at his profile, he is proud of it.


That is 100% correct @Kpc21 My grandparents had to leave Poland due to appalling conditions in the 1920's and they were always sad about that decision in spite of founding a new home and a family 14000 km away from their birthplace. Now, thanks to the ius sanguinis law, I could testify that I have polish blood and able to get citizenship.

For me, I am very proud of my ancestors and I have Polish blood in my veins in spite of not speaking a word of Polish and not eating beets soup (BARSZCZ CZERWONY, right?). Recovering my Polish citizenship felt like bringing back something that it rightfully belonged.

50% of my blood is Polish, but I am 100% proud of it. Cheers


----------



## Penn's Woods

kokomo said:


> That is 100% correct @Kpc21 My grandparents had to leave Poland due to appalling conditions in the 1920's and they were always sad about that decision in spite of founding a new home and a family 14000 km away from their birthplace. Now, thanks to the ius sanguinis law, I could testify that I have polish blood and able to get citizenship.
> 
> For me, I am very proud of my ancestors and I have Polish blood in my veins in spite of not speaking a word of Polish and not eating beets soup (BARSZCZ CZERWONY, right?). Recovering my Polish citizenship felt like bringing back something that it rightfully belonged.
> 
> 50% of my blood is Polish, but I am 100% proud of it. Cheers


I’m entirely Polish by blood, as far as I know. But three or my grandparents were born in the U.S. (in 1895 and 1907), and the fourth left Poland, but technically Russia, about 1912. So I can’t get citizenship. :-( You need to have a parent it grandparent who was a citizen of Poland, and for mine there was no such thing.

But where does the Kokomo come from? Just out of curiosity. You know it’s a town in Indiana?


----------



## Adrian.02

alserrod said:


> As an exemption, Mallorca island is open since today for tourism. A weird situation after you can go from some country to that island (only that island, not full Balearic islands) and you may have a reason to move from the rest of Spain. It will be for 6 days only (all restrictions will be down since next Sunday)
> 
> Tomorrow morning, four planes coming from Germany scheduled.
> 
> I have glanced airport rules
> 
> all baggage to some specific desks
> all movement will be using gates and areas dedicated for intra-Balearic flights due to they have infrastructure for controls
> and they remember to glance official information about public transport once you arrive to airport
> 
> Next Sunday it is supposed not to have any restriction within Schengen area except with Portugal


I am also supposed to land on Mallorca at the beggining at July.
The stupid thing is,that if I declare when entering Romania that I have been in Spain,I must instantly go into isolation.(I am going by car to Germany,and then fly to Mallorca,and viceversa on the way back)


----------



## Le Clerk

Sure thing you are onto a criminal route. Making false statements before the authorities surely is a criminal offence in Romania.


----------



## Adrian.02

Le Clerk said:


> Sure thing you are onto a criminal route. Making false statements before the authorities surely is a criminal offence in Romania.


Well I know,that's why I will tell the truth(Mr. LEClerck,as a citizen oof Romania,I think I know the rules in my country very well)
But it's stupid that they put the Balearic and Canary Islands in Spain on the same list with Spain!
They should split them,as they did in the first days of the State of Emergency


----------



## Džiugas

Penn's Woods said:


> Now if only Poland would offer passports to people whose grandparents left before 1920....
> 
> Not that I have anyone in particular in mind, of course.


For example, any ethnic Lithuanian can easily acquire fast track Lithuanian citizenship and settle in any EEA country. Many Lithuanian Brasilians or Lithuanian Argentinians use this to relocate to Spain, for example.


----------



## alserrod

Adrian.02 said:


> Well I know,that's why I will tell the truth(Mr. LEClerck,as a citizen oof Romania,I think I know the rules in my country very well)
> But it's stupid that they put the Balearic and Canary Islands in Spain on the same list with Spain!
> They should split them,as they did in the first days of the State of Emergency


Not exactly!!!

Spain has 17 regions plus 2 cities. OK, those 2 cities and 2 regions (Balearic and Canaries) are isolated... but all measures were taken in the same ways as well as borders were blocked but internal movements were allowed (obviously few movements and only by plane but there were several daily planes to Madrid or Barcelona from some islands).
It is true Formentera island was one out of first four islands to go through less restrictions but in the same way...

Galicia is the only region that hasn't restrictions nowadays
First covid19 case in Spain was... in La Gomera island (one island that later, they were with less restrictions)

and legally, all restrictions are over all territory. This is, health system, logistics, etc... There will be 1000 exemptions later but at first you may set all the law for the territory.


It seems a joke but a relative working in an island airport told me that the week prior confinement he saw a lot of empty planes landing and departing with passengers. He's so used to see planes, he knew if it came empty or didn't.
Just after midgnight of confinement he saw a plane full of tourists. He said... impossible!!!. Asked to glance baggage and.. it seemed about 200 people to stay for a week.

They were allowed to entry (borders weren't locked still) but all restrictions were over (incluiding not going to hotel pool).
Some tourists asked reason. Answer... covid19.
Why covid19???. Answer, haven't you heard about it?

Yeah... but it is mainly in Italy, France and Spain, isn't it?

OK... and in which country are you now?

(that was part of a conversation)



In other words... it seems a different world but sometimes isolation due to island makes the only difference and you can find more common ticks between a city or town in an island and another one in big areas, rather than with a village in inner Spain.
Before Schengen, in airport there were international and national flights only and nowadays you will find a lot of "Spanish details" (Spanish stamps, +34 for dial, health system, pharmacies and so on) despite currency is euro and coming from Schengen area there will be no controls since next Sunday.

In addition, may you have to do a deal with Spanish administration, for sure, you will find offices in Palma to do as if you were in other cities


----------



## alserrod

Džiugas said:


> For example, any ethnic Lithuanian can easily acquire fast track Lithuanian citizenship and settle in any EEA country. Many Lithuanian Brasilians or Lithuanian Argentinians use this to relocate to Spain, for example.


sorry for OT
It could seem a joke but... general statements for Spanish nationality is 10 years living in the country. Nowadays, being from a country of EU it barely worths for nothing. I knew a person who had been working for a decade and he didn't want to ask for it.

Nevertheless, for people from Portugal, Andorra and all former Spanish territories (all American Spanish Speaking countries, Phillipines, Equatorial Guinea and some other corners...) it is just 2 years.

So... a lot of football players coming from South America try to play in a lower Spanish league but with a contract and residence in Spain obviously. After two years they can ask for Spanish nationality and play in another EU club as EU citizen...


----------



## kokomo

Penn's Woods said:


> I’m entirely Polish by blood, as far as I know. But three or my grandparents were born in the U.S. (in 1895 and 1907), and the fourth left Poland, but technically Russia, about 1912. So I can’t get citizenship. :-( You need to have a parent it grandparent who was a citizen of Poland, and for mine there was no such thing.
> 
> But where does the Kokomo come from? Just out of curiosity. You know it’s a town in Indiana?


I had to read a bit Polish citizenship law in order to better apply for it, and it seems it goes like this:


Before 1920 there was no Polish national state, so if your ancestor left Poland before that date he was either German, Austrian or Russian but not Polish.
Another thing: the Polish blood line does not cut, so if your greatgrandfather was a Polish citizen (for the sake of example) but your grandpa and your dad not, you could eventually have a claim for citizenship because the bloodline is not interrrupted.
Polish bloodline until 1951 was established through the male line except for unmarried women who had illegitimate children.
Polish women who married foreigners before 1951 lost their Polish citizenship as well.
What do you need to have a valid claim for it?

A Polish grandfather or two Greatgrandparents who left Poland after 1920
A Polish document such as Passport or Birth certificate of such ancestor
All proper certificates of your country of birth showing a blood trace to this ancestor (marriage and birth certificates, for instance)
And that is...

By the way, my nick comes from the 1980's song "Aruba, Jamaica, mmhhhh I'm gonna take ya, to Key Largo, Montego, come on babe why don't we go, all down the way to Kokomo"



Džiugas said:


> For example, any ethnic Lithuanian can easily acquire fast track Lithuanian citizenship and settle in any EEA country. Many Lithuanian Brasilians or Lithuanian Argentinians use this to relocate to Spain, for example.


Speaking about Lithuanian citizenship, I don't know if the law has changed, but in the past Lithuania needed for you to renounce to your citizenship of birth in order to petition for Lithuanian one. 
There are some countries, such as Argentina for instance, which do not allow such thing because in the process the national asking for loss of citizenship would become "apatrid" and a convention of the UN strives not for such things to happen. 
Like a decade ago, there was a notorious case where two Argentine citizens, of Lithuanian ancestry, tried to renounce to their citizenship in order to comply with Lithuanian law and they were not allowed to do so. The case even reached to the Supreme Court where it was stated that being an apatrid in the modern world is not acceptable. It is preferrable having a crappy citizenship than not at all


----------



## Barciur

Kpc21 said:


> But isn't it up to the country, who can be its citizen?
> 
> 
> This seems to be great but I wonder if it will be updated on time.
> 
> Well, I checked and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which seems to be just wrong.
> 
> Although now some media say that Poles can enter Slovakia for at max 48 hours – but it isn't backed with any sources, the articles are based on people's experiences.
> 
> If we want to enter Slovakia for a longer period, it seems we need to have a negative coronavirus test from no more than 96 hours before entering Slovakia, otherwise, such a Pole can get a 1600 euro fine.
> 
> Anyway, a 48-hour limit of the stay rather shouldn't count as "free movement"...
> 
> I found an official message of the Polish government, from today: https://www.gov.pl/web/slowacja/nad...ny-przejazd-polskich-obywateli-przez-slowacje
> 
> It says that entry to Slovakia is not allowed for neither touristic, nor business purposes, the only exception is transit to return to Poland (for all Polish citizens) or all other transit – the latter only with a special consent from Slovak authorities.
> 
> So the EU website lies.


Look closely - it only talks about moving within the country freely, which would apply to citizens. When you switch the the second icon under "travel," it provides more details.


----------



## Džiugas

kokomo said:


> Speaking about Lithuanian citizenship, I don't know if the law has changed, but in the past Lithuania needed for you to renounce to your citizenship of birth in order to petition for Lithuanian one.
> There are some countries, such as Argentina for instance, which do not allow such thing because in the process the national asking for loss of citizenship would become "apatrid" and a convention of the UN strives not for such things to happen.
> Like a decade ago, there was a notorious case where two Argentine citizens, of Lithuanian ancestry, tried to renounce to their citizenship in order to comply with Lithuanian law and they were not allowed to do so. The case even reached to the Supreme Court where it was stated that being an apatrid in the modern world is not acceptable. It is preferrable having a crappy citizenship than not at all


Yes, an applicant must renounce the foreign citizenship, and I'm not sure what is done for Argentines or Iranians. However, if someone up to 3 generations before was a Lithuanian citizen, then you can retroactively restore it (and keep another one). If you are 4 generations away, but still have alive parents, you can also retroactively restore it after the restoration of parents' citizenship.


----------



## Adrian.02

alserrod said:


> Not exactly!!!
> 
> Spain has 17 regions plus 2 cities. OK, those 2 cities and 2 regions (Balearic and Canaries) are isolated... but all measures were taken in the same ways as well as borders were blocked but internal movements were allowed (obviously few movements and only by plane but there were several daily planes to Madrid or Barcelona from some islands).
> It is true Formentera island was one out of first four islands to go through less restrictions but in the same way...
> 
> Galicia is the only region that hasn't restrictions nowadays
> First covid19 case in Spain was... in La Gomera island (one island that later, they were with less restrictions)
> and legally, all restrictions are over all territory. This is, health system, logistics, etc... There will be 1000 exemptions later but at first you may set all the law for the territory.
> 
> 
> It seems a joke but a relative working in an island airport told me that the week prior confinement he saw a lot of empty planes landing and departing with passengers. He's so used to see planes, he knew if it came empty or didn't.
> Just after midgnight of confinement he saw a plane full of tourists. He said... impossible!!!. Asked to glance baggage and.. it seemed about 200 people to stay for a week.
> 
> They were allowed to entry (borders weren't locked still) but all restrictions were over (incluiding not going to hotel pool).
> Some tourists asked reason. Answer... covid19.
> Why covid19???. Answer, haven't you heard about it?
> 
> Yeah... but it is mainly in Italy, France and Spain, isn't it?
> 
> OK... and in which country are you now?
> 
> (that was part of a conversation)
> 
> 
> 
> In other words... it seems a different world but sometimes isolation due to island makes the only difference and you can find more common ticks between a city or town in an island and another one in big areas, rather than with a village in inner Spain.
> Before Schengen, in airport there were international and national flights only and nowadays you will find a lot of "Spanish details" (Spanish stamps, +34 for dial, health system, pharmacies and so on) despite currency is euro and coming from Schengen area there will be no controls since next Sunday.
> 
> In addition, may you have to do a deal with Spanish administration, for sure, you will find offices in Palma to do as if you were in other cities


You got me wrong 
I was complaining about the fact that Romania has made a list of countries from where you do not instantly enter isolation(Spain is not on the list,but could be added in a few weeks,depening on the epidemiological situation)
And my point was:Why should I,as a Romanian citizen coming back from the Spanish Islands,which were not so affected by the Pandemic,go instantly into isolation?
That's why this list should be made regarding the situation at provintial status.
P.S. Please let me know when the number of cases/week in Spain drops lower than 5 infected/ 1million inhabitants


----------



## alserrod

Adrian.02 said:


> You got me wrong
> I was complaining about the fact that Romania has made a list of countries from where you do not instantly enter isolation(Spain is not on the list,but could be added in a few weeks,depening on the epidemiological situation)
> And my point was:Why should I,as a Romanian citizen coming back from the Spanish Islands,which were not so affected by the Pandemic,go instantly into isolation?
> That's why this list should be made regarding the situation at provintial status.
> P.S. Please let me know when the number of cases/week in Spain drops lower than 5 infected/ 1million inhabitants



That's weird

Nowadays in Spain everybody should have a quarantine except people who lives in France/Portugal and works in Spain or conversely who can move for free.
It doesn't matter nationality, it doesn't matter origin (you could be in contact with people from anywhere).

Anywhere...

Quarantine dissappears on Saturday night, thus if you come today, you will have a 4 days quarantine only
Borders will be opened for Schengen area (except Portugal plus Andorra) since next Sunday and without quarantine (it doesn't matter nationality, just allow border crossing by road from France and Andorra and flights from Schengen area
Borders will be full opened (it is unvelieable not to consider some countries with a high impact) since July 1st. The only issue would be border may be opened conversely (for instance, AFAIK, Morocco is to remain lockdown).

As internal movements all will be for free. The cities of Ceuta and Melilla have been absolutely isolated for 3,5 months. Only freight could arrive (and borders closed of course). Ceuta has picked up its helicopter service. I think they will wait till Monday for ferries.

Trains are to have new schedules since this Monday. A weird one. It seems less than a typical August. Company said they will increase if there's more demand.

The fact is transport is being half empty in some movements. The same for planes, thus they want to move the minimal required planes/trains


Nevertheless... this Sunday there will not be any border control because only Schengen area countries will be allowed (*)

(*) OK, Andorra custom control....


----------



## kokomo

Džiugas said:


> Yes, an applicant must renounce the foreign citizenship, and I'm not sure what is done for Argentines or Iranians. However, if someone up to 3 generations before was a Lithuanian citizen, then you can retroactively restore it (and keep another one). If you are 4 generations away, but still have alive parents, you can also retroactively restore it after the restoration of parents' citizenship.


As per that article I shared before, Argentina can not permit its nationals to renounce its citizenship with the risk of being apatrids in the meantime. As a matter of fact, I checked with a friend of mine (whose last name is Burokas and his grandpa was Lithuanian) and he could not apply for Lithuanian citizenship and had to suffice with the Spanish one from his mother's side instead in order to live in Holland with his girlfriend.

Ironically, and with this I close this topic so as not to diverge that much, my grandfather was born in current Ukraine and had its passport issued at Wilno, which is now the capital of Lithuania, but for current Poland that's fine because it does not matter if now those places are in current Poland but were in the past. By the way, my grandmother was born in current Belarus. Finding birth certificates was impossible


----------



## alserrod

kokomo said:


> As per that article I shared before, Argentina can not permit its nationals to renounce its citizenship with the risk of being apatrids in the meantime. Ironically, and with this I close this topic so as not to diverge that much, my grandfather was born in current Ukraine and had its passport issued at Wilno, which is now the capital of Lithuania, but for current Poland that's fine because it does not matter if now those places are in current Poland but were in the past. By the way, my grandmother was born in current Belarus. Finding birth certificates was impossible



Sorry for OT but... 
2nd political party spokesperson in Spain was


born in Madrid in 1974
apatrid when she was born
got Argentinian nationality
got French nationality
got Spanish nationality in 2007
She has 3 nationalities

It is a person that gives topic to chat, chat and chat... I have just resume its nationalities


----------



## mgk920

It is mind blowing how totally grey, drab and dreary East Berlin (and the rest of East Germany, for that matter) was. It was a total transformation there in the years after The Wall fell.

Mike


----------



## alserrod

I found this former one in E-07











Picture is from border through France

Look at the stone (just one metre before border) in street view









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


----------



## Eulanthe

mgk920 said:


> It is mind blowing how totally grey, drab and dreary East Berlin (and the rest of East Germany, for that matter) was. It was a total transformation there in the years after The Wall fell.


Yes, it's the most striking thing about these videos. It was the same story all over the Soviet Bloc - drabness and very little life/colour to things beyond the strict historical centres. What's interesting is that even today, much of the former East Germany is still lifeless, although not drab and dreary. One interesting thing though - West Berlin, despite appearing to be much more colourful and lively - also had much, much worse social problems than East Berlin. Apparently it was a huge shock when the borders opened, as suddenly East Berliners were exposed to Western problems, including heroin and other hard drugs.

I found a video showing the controls at the Brandenburg Gate in June 1990 - this categorically proves that East Berlin was still maintaining entry controls in June 1990 within Berlin, and the DDR flag is still flying at the checkpoint.






The green chain-link fence that you can see in the video was put up at Potsdamer Platz too - it seems that from what I've found today that there was a plan to install these fences across the line of the Berlin Wall in order to ensure orderly entry/exit from the DDR.

And a picture from the Brandenburg Gate in July 1990. There's both West Berlin and DDR police standing here, while the border was now fully open between the two. This was apparently a very strange time.


----------



## tfd543

The reunification was officially in Oct 1990, so were there still borders until Oct?


----------



## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> The reunification was officially in Oct 1990, so were there still borders until Oct?


Officially, the last day of border control between West Berlin/West Germany and East Germany was on the 30th June 1990. This is why this picture above is quite interesting, because West and East Germany had already created a "mini-Schengen" between themselves at that point, so I'm not sure why West Berlin and East German police were there. It's possible that it was a joint patrol in what was a very busy tourist area - they don't seem to be staying to their side of the border. I've found some pictures of the West Berlin police in East Germany after the borders came down, so I assume they were officially cooperating.

One other thing: it seems that East Germany didn't actually demolish any border controls. There were no more controls between West Berlin/West Germany and East Germany from the 1st July onwards, but East Germany kept the checkpoint infrastructure. It seems that the infrastructure was only demolished after unification.

There were so many strange and weird things about the Berlin border crossings as well. For instance, if you lived in West Berlin as a citizen of the Federal Republic, you could get one of two things: an "provisional" ID card issued by the West Berlin civilian authorities, or you could get a West German passport that showed your address as being in West Berlin. But if you wanted to go to East Germany, you could only use your ID card as that didn't contain any information about the Federal Republic. You couldn't go further as well - none of the Soviet Bloc countries would accept a passport with a West Berlin address, because they kept to the fact that West Berlin wasn't part of West Germany legally, so the West German government couldn't issue passports to them. End result? West Berliners couldn't travel beyond East Germany.

Then there was more madness for West Germans, as they needed to use passports to go by land to West Berlin. They could fly using their ID cards, but train/road required the use of a passport to enter East Germany. 

It's not clear why West Berlin didn't get their own passports, though.


----------



## garethni

Eulanthe said:


> West Berliners couldn't travel beyond East Germany.


Are you sure? I was led to believe could use the provisional ID card for travelling eastwards. And I thought you could get both a passport of the FRG and one of those ID cards.


----------



## alserrod

About Berlin issue, what about if a West Berlin citizen had another address in his passport?

Nowadays it says nothing related to address, does it?


----------



## Eulanthe

garethni said:


> Are you sure? I was led to believe could use the provisional ID card for travelling eastwards. And I thought you could get both a passport of the FRG and one of those ID cards.


Only into the DDR, no further. But yes, you could get both, but because West German passports had the holder's address written in them, they wouldn't allow them to be used by residents of West Berlin. The problem would have been solved if West Berlin issued her own passports, but as I understand it, West Berlin refused because this would have implied a symbolic 'break' with the Federal Republic. It was a strange situation - IMO, it could easily have been solved by issuing provisional West Berlin passports while allowing people to claim passports from the Federal Republic as well. 



alserrod said:


> About Berlin issue, what about if a West Berlin citizen had another address in his passport?
> 
> Nowadays it says nothing related to address, does it?


If they had another address, they would have some issues - the big one was military service (citizens of the Federal Republic living in West Berlin didn't have to do military service), but I think there were also some privileges attached to living in West Berlin due to the difficult economic position of the city.

These days, there's nothing as far as I'm aware.


----------



## Palance

Now that Streetview is available in more regions in Austria, I discovered this strange situation.

On the border on the normal road (not the motorway!) between Villach (AT) and Tarvisio (IT) , here is the (former) Italian border control.









As you can see, there are blue country signs. The sign at the far right says Italy (correct of course). But the 2 signs in the left say Slovenija, not Italia. Which should be impossible: The Tripoint AT-IT-SI is not far from here, neither are border crossings AT-SI (Wurzenpass) and IT-SI (Rateče). But from this location you cannot enter Slovena directly.
You can also see 2 Slovene flags.









Just after the border crossing there is a sign in Slovene:









What could be the meaning of this? Has Slovenia invaded this very small part of Italy? 

Location in Google Maps: Tarvisio


----------



## g.spinoza

Palance said:


> Just after the border crossing there is a sign in Slovene:


Beware of R2D2s, they can trip you up


----------



## Adrian.02

Palance said:


> Now that Streetview is available in more regions in Austria, I discovered this strange situation.
> 
> On the border on the normal road (not the motorway!) between Villach (AT) and Tarvisio (IT) , here is the (former) Italian border control.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, there are blue country signs. The sign at the far right says Italy (correct of course). But the 2 signs in the left say Slovenija, not Italia. Which should be impossible: The Tripoint AT-IT-SI is not far from here, neither are border crossings AT-SI (Wurzenpass) and IT-SI (Rateče). But from this location you cannot enter Slovena directly.
> You can also see 2 Slovene flags.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just after the border crossing there is a sign in Slovene:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What could be the meaning of this? Has Slovenia invaded this very small part of Italy?
> 
> Location in Google Maps: Tarvisio


I was about to report this anomaly as well  I found it quite strange


----------



## tfd543

Wtf? Is the image really true? I mean corresponding to the location. Thats very odd.


----------



## Kpc21

Maybe those were some special gates for people transiting to Slovenia? With Slovenian checks taking place already there?


----------



## kreden

I doubt it's anything official, that is not the Slovenian flag, also all the signs are of Italian design.

EDIT: It was probably a film set, you can see Cinetecnica vans further down the road, as well as a fake Slovenian police van: Google Maps

.. and a very obviously fake Slovenian-Italian "border" with barbed wire etc. on the other side: Google Maps


----------



## garethni

And the stars on the signs are wrong as they do not point upwards.


----------



## stickedy

I crossed there just 10 months ago and there was for sure no Slovenian signs


----------



## tfd543

It must be a special crossing since they didnt just use a proper SLO-I crossing.


----------



## stickedy

It's rather big without much traffic and all border infrastructure is still there. Hard to find on SLO-I crossings...


----------



## VITORIA MAN

P-E border in El Granado , the bridge was built in 2009








source wiki


----------



## alserrod

That border is amazing

river Guadiana starts in Spain, gets boundary Spain-Portugal, enters totally in Portugal and finish as bound.

It is THAT point where river Guadiana remains boundary again.
Looking in second picture. East ahead, North in the left

Dam is the border, Guadiana river (main one) in the left is Portugal, in the right is partially Spain-Portugal, thus the bridge after dam is internationa


----------



## cinxxx

I was last year in December in Mertola, I should have looked on the map better, I should have went to that bridge too.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

There's also a dearth of border crossings in that part of the world. Until they built that bridge (wikipedia tells me), Pomarão and El Granado were 140 km apart by road. It is a very sparsely populated area though.


----------



## pai nosso

*Portugal/Spain

Amizade Bridge » V. N. de Cerveira/Goián -- July of 2020*


The border between Portugal and Spain opened on the 1st of July and I on the next weekend went to visit the beautiful Galician petrol pumps!! 😂 

1-


2-


3-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## Corvinus

pai nosso said:


> The border between Portugal and Spain opened on the 1st of July and I on the next weekend went to visit the beautiful Galician petrol pumps!! 😂


Beautiful, or just less per litre over there?


----------



## rpc08

Corvinus said:


> Beautiful, or just less per litre over there?


That's kind of beautiful, isn't it? 😁


----------



## pai nosso

Corvinus said:


> Beautiful, or just less per litre over there?


For example, that day the difference was for gasoline 95: Portugal » 1,44€/l & Spain » 1,11€/l.

So you see, very beautiful!!😂


----------



## VITORIA MAN

its higher than in france


----------



## andre_e

...


----------



## andre_e

Chile / Argentina


----------



## andre_e




----------



## alserrod

Are pass booths operating or controls are near the border?

BTW, has it sense to translate into English and not into Portuguese regarding languages in the area?

(it is the first time I read "vehículos livianos", I had read that adjective in other senses but never related to vehicles!!)


----------



## kokomo

In several binational crosses, there is a unified checkpoint for both countries regarding immigration procedures. Customs seldom, not always. 

For example, this is a crossing where the Argentina border control was practically besides the boundary but was dismantled. Google Maps and it has been unified on the Chilean side. Bare in mind that a lot of tension existed historically between both countries, almost went to war in 1978 for the Beagle islands, so it took decades to lift those blockades and mistrust.

You got to recall that some times these posts are isolated in the middle of nowhere, for example in the Atacama desert, with only one access and nowhere to go, so they unify buildings to save on costs. On some cases checkpoints are on the Chilean side and sometimes on the Argentinean.

"Vehículos livianos", _light vessels_, refers to automobiles, motorcycles, vans and bikes. Heavy ones are trucks (lorries) and buses


----------



## italystf

Today I crossed between Italy and Slovenia here.
Entering SLO, a sign restricts crossing to nationals of Italy and Slovenia (however it wasn't enforced).
On the other direction, no restrictions at all.
What's the reason?


----------



## Eulanthe

italystf said:


> What's the reason?


I believe (but I'm not 100%) that Slovenia decided to restrict the old 'locals only' crossings to actually locals only. I think it was unilateral on their part, and also affected crossings on the Austrian and Croatian borders too.


----------



## garethni

Eulanthe said:


> I believe (but I'm not 100%) that Slovenia decided to restrict the old 'locals only' crossings to actually locals only. I think it was unilateral on their part, and also affected crossings on the Austrian and Croatian borders too.


I remember being at a conference on the SLO/HR border and having to pay 81 cents to be able to cross at one of those locals only things to walk to the village just over the border in Croatia. I wish I had kept the receipt as a souvenir! Actually, on the way back a big black dog decided to accompany me right to the border bridge and I was concerned the border guards would think he was mine. But I think they knew him and he knew where to say goodbye!


----------



## Eulanthe

I actually tried to get one of those passes just after Croatia joined the EU, and I couldn't get one! I wasn't allowed to cross at two places (this was in July 2013), and at the others, they either told me that I didn't need it, or they moaned about me trying to cross there. A few months later when they dropped the 'pass', there were no problems at all.


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## tfd543

Can you please help to find the location of this very interesting border crossing in 1920? Its b/w kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes and Free State of Fiume/Rijeka! Perhaps, @Eulanthe can help me out.


----------



## g.spinoza

tfd543 said:


> Can you please help to find the location of this very interesting border crossing in 1920? Its b/w kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes and Free State of Fiume/Rijeka! Perhaps, @Eulanthe can help me out.
> View attachment 315041


Pretty sure it's here:








Google Maps


Trova attività commerciali locali, visualizza mappe e trova indicazioni stradali in Google Maps.




www.google.it





Background the railway bridge, foreground the road bridge.


----------



## Eulanthe

Yes, I think it is as well. I've seen a similar picture from later on, but I don't remember where.


----------



## tfd543

Passed the dragonja SLO-HR crossing yesterday. I was just waved through and I didnt know it was integrated under one roof. Slovenian officer just looked at the passport without touching it and the croatian guy just looked at the license plate. Funny, it lasted smth like 5 sec in total.


----------



## tfd543

Its showing video not available.


----------



## Palance

Eulanthe said:


> This shows the BiH border with Croatia in June 1996. The first part of the video clip shows the Croatian exit controls, with a barrier operated by a Croatian policeman. They then drive a few hundred metres to the BiH checkpoint, which appears to have civilian police and customs present.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 186,041 Army Stock Video Footage - 4K and HD Video Clips | Shutterstock
> 
> 
> 186,041 army stock video clips in 4K and HD for creative projects. Plus, explore over 11 million high-quality video and footage clips in every category. Sign up for free today!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.shutterstock.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So it's probable that the border was returned to civilian rule quickly.
> 
> Does anyone know where this video was taken?


I think here: (Pašin Potok)








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




goo.gl


----------



## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> Its showing video not available.


Try this: 




Palance, yeah, it definitely is - thank you!


----------



## tfd543

Nope, still not. Idk if dk is blocking me. I cant as well hear my usual music playlist in youtube. It says suddenly only for premium members. Anyway, cool stuff.


----------



## Eulanthe

An interesting border crossing. This is on the RUS/BY border, somewhere in the Pskov oblast. 

Google Maps - this is the old Russian crossing, and I find it very interesting because it looks like it dates from 1992 or so. The design of the infrastructure there, especially the traffic lights, suggest that it was a very early post-Soviet design. 

There's also an interesting warning sign here - can anyone translate? Google Maps

Another ruined RUS/BY crossing, this time in Bryansk Oblast:









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





And another one nearby, though this one clearly functions as a border crossing for trucks: 









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


----------



## eucitizen

The sign is saying something like that:
Warning. You are leaving the 2 dangerous area of african swine fever. Vehicles´ movement without stopping and control is forbidden.
Btw in July Belarus and Russia finally signed the agreement of their visas recognition, so with a Belaurs visa you can enter Russia and viceversa. Morover you will be able to enter Russia from Belerus. The agreement isn´t still in force.


----------



## bogdymol

This post also belongs on this thread.



Le Clerk said:


> The Isaccea-Orlovka (RO-UA) border crossing was opened today officially for freight traffic. The new border crossing saves about 200 km of detour drive to/from Constanta to Odessa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=869746550099485


Apart from the shorter travel distance, it also saves travelers an additional border crossing: if you look closely at the map, you notice that previously there were no border crossing points directly between Romania and Ukraine, but travelers had to go through the Republic of Moldova.


----------



## Penn's Woods

bogdymol said:


> This post also belongs on this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Apart from the shorter travel distance, it also saves travelers an additional border crossing: if you look closely at the map, you notice that previously there were no border crossing points directly between Romania and Ukraine, but travelers had to go through the Republic of Moldova.


None at all, even in the north?


----------



## bogdymol

There are border crossing points between Romania and Ukraine, just not in this area. Actually, besides this one, if you want to drive directly from Romania to Ukraine, you need to go all around the entire country of Republic of Moldova. That's an 1400 km long journey!

Of course, through Moldova it is a lot shorter, but this is the first direct border crossing point in this area.


----------



## Ingenioren

Great, but why didn't this happen 20-30 years ago  One could imagine some special "arrangement" for the 2-3km of E87 trough Moldova aswell.


----------



## Eulanthe

Speaking of Romania, what's going on here?









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





If you drive forward, it looks like the Hungarian controls have been abandoned here, but...why?


----------



## cinxxx

^^Because there is just one common check on the territory of the entering country I think.


----------



## tfd543

^^ it was like that as well in Dragonja and Secovlje at SLO-HR crossing (external Schengen).


----------



## Alex_ZR

Eulanthe said:


> Speaking of Romania, what's going on here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you drive forward, it looks like the Hungarian controls have been abandoned here, but...why?


Control should be at the Schengen country side (Hungary in this case).


----------



## bogdymol

At RO-H border the checks are done by both countries in the booths of the country you are entering into.


----------



## Adrian.02

Eulanthe said:


> Speaking of Romania, what's going on here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you drive forward, it looks like the Hungarian controls have been abandoned here, but...why?


That was the former Truck control station,but they relocated it elsewhere and built the Nagylak bypass through it.


----------



## italystf

bogdymol said:


> At RO-H border the checks are done by both countries in the booths of the country you are entering into.


That's the rule for intra-EU non-Schengen borders.


----------



## tfd543

bogdymol said:


> At RO-H border the checks are done by both countries in the booths of the country you are entering into.


As in tabanovce at SRB-NMK crossing. Non-eu and non-Schengen..

I guess it depends on the relation of countries in question.. idk actually why not so many countries instate this.


----------



## Theijs

On 4th of september the HU-RO border on the Romanian A3 north of Borș will be opened. All customs take place at the Hungarian side. 
However, at the HU-RO border on the Romanian A1 at Nadlac, all customs take place at the Romanian side. This is the result of a bilateral agreement.


----------



## Adrian.02

tfd543 said:


> As in tabanovce at SRB-NMK crossing. Non-eu and non-Schengen..
> 
> I guess it depends on the relation of countries in question.. idk actually why not so many countries instate this.


Careful!The Tabanovce border crossing between MK and SRB has only been like this for one year or so!When I was a little kid we would always spend a lot of time waiting at the border there at Tabanovce,because we had to be controlled twice!(in the early 2010s)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some more border complexity in Central Asia. The Tajik-Kyrgyz border was never delineated precisely during Soviet times and after 1991 they could not agree on the border, so each side has a different view on where the border might be.

This also means that no border posts were constructed in this area. Tajik road RB16 runs from Isfara to the Vorukh exclave and crosses through Kyrgyz territory. Kyrgyz road EM13 runs to the west of Batken Region and crosses through Tajik territory. No border posts are visible on Google Earth satellite imagery.

The Kyrgyz road EM13 has been built on a new alignment to bypass the Tajik town of Chorku. It is likely that it still passes through Tajik villages southwest of Chorku. Google Maps has this road cross in and out of Tajikistan several times.

Both nations have nothing to win with border posts, Kyrgyzstan could lose their only uninterrupted road link to western Batken Region, while Tajikistan could lose uninterrupted access to Vorukh.

An article from 2019 however says that both nations intended to build border crossings on these roads. It's unclear if this actually happened, because border posts means that one side recognizes a border that the other side might not recognize.









Kyrgyzstan reportedly builds border crossing point on the Isfara-Vorukh road | Tajikistan News ASIA-Plus







asiaplustj.info





OSM:









Google Maps:


----------



## italystf

Post-Soviet states have probably more territorial disputes than the rest of the world combined.


----------



## VITORIA MAN




----------



## KRX_69

_*Barrancos Border (PT-ES)*_

01.

Fronteira de Barrancos by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

02.

Fronteira de Barrancos by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

03.

Fronteira de Barrancos by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

04.

Fronteira de Barrancos by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

05.

Fronteira de Barrancos by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

07.

Fronteira de Barrancos by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

👍


----------



## trilobitas

Latvia - Lithuania border


----------



## alserrod

I bet, it is free to cross there without any control, isn't it?


----------



## cinxxx

Is this an old border stone from 1870? Did a roadtrip today and stumbled onto it


----------



## parcdesprinces

...


----------



## Penn's Woods

cinxxx said:


> Is this an old border stone from 1870? Did a roadtrip today and stumbled onto it
> View attachment 482372
> View attachment 482375


“K.K.” = “Kaiserliche Königliche”? (Imperial and Royal)
Maybe a distance marker on a numbered highway; France has had them since Napoleon’s time I believe.


----------



## MichiH

Penn's Woods said:


> “K.K.” = “Kaiserliche Königliche”? (Imperial and Royal)
> Maybe a distance marker on a numbered highway; France has had them since Napoleon’s time I believe.


yep, KKÖC (or KKÖG ?)

I would agree with a distance marker but "1870" is a quite important date. It was during the Franco-Prussian War and before the first German Empire was founded on 1st January 1871. Some borders have changed back then.









Franco-Prussian War - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org












German Empire - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Penn's Woods

MichiH said:


> yep, KKÖC (or KKÖG ?)
> 
> I would agree with a distance marker but "1870" is a quite important date. It was during the Franco-Prussian War and before the first German Empire was founded on 1st January 1871. Some borders have changed back then.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Franco-Prussian War - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> German Empire - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


I couldn’t think of anything in the Austria-Bavaria border area that changed, except Bavaria’s incorporation into the Empire.

So what’s the “ÖC” (or “G”)? Austrian something?

Wait, how about “Österreichische Grenze”? So we’re back to a border marker. Or the border on that route.


----------



## cinxxx

Penn's Woods said:


> I couldn’t think of anything in the Austria-Bavaria border area that changed, except Bavaria’s incorporation into the Empire.
> 
> So what’s the “ÖC” (or “G”)? Austrian something?
> 
> Wait, how about “Österreichische Grenze”? So we’re back to a border marker. Or the border on that route.


My guess is kaiserlich und königlich oesterreichische Grenze (K.K.OE.G).
--> "neuversetzt 1905"


----------



## Penn's Woods

cinxxx said:


> My guess is kaiserlich und königlich oesterreichische Grenze (K.K.OE.G).
> --> "neuversetzt 1905"


Remind me what “neuversetzt” means.


----------



## cinxxx

Penn's Woods said:


> Remind me what “neuversetzt” means.


Relocated (again) 

And why googling it, I found this:





Historische Grenzsteine der österreichischen Bundesforste – Salzburgwiki







www.sn.at


----------



## stickedy

Found: Grenzsteine – Salzburgwiki

There you have basically a picture of an identical border stone.


----------



## PovilD

alserrod said:


> I bet, it is free to cross there without any control, isn't it?


In terms of Schengen - yes, I think. If you talking about Lithuania-Latvia border, this is the furthest point from my place where I live (Kaunas) which is still in Lithuania. I've never been there, but I think I will try to visit it as soon as I have time and possibility


----------



## PovilD

As for Central Asia. I can feel people having nostalgia there that instead of important transit roads now they have ditches and border controls everywhere with transit traffic interrupted, while in Soviet times these were seen nothing more than intra-country administrative divisions. Tashkent-Dushanbe were capitals of Uzbek and Tajik SSR.

Btw, there are places in Lithuania that were only can be accessed via Belarus. I don't remember exact villages, but these can be found in the forests of Southern Lithuania (maybe Katra village to be exact, but I don't remember if this the actual village). New gravel road was built in Lithuanian side to access those villages like probably in 90s or early 00s.

There were even been one exclave that belonged Lithuania and it was completely surrounded by Belarus. It was near current-day Šalčininkai enclave (noticeable feature of Lithuanian-Belarusian border). and very small. After border agreement in 1995, there were no exclaves left in Lithuania 
Location:


----------



## Palance

PovilD said:


> Btw, there are places in Lithuania that were only can be accessed via Belarus.


The tiny village of Uništa i Bosnia-Herzegovina can only be accessed from Croatia, from Kijevo.
The problem here is that there is one road only to Croatia, and that is not a formal border crossing. So legally crossing the border, and thus leaving the village, is impossible.
In summer if the weather cindutions are good, it is possible to drive over the Dinara mountains to Bosansko Grahovo in a jeep or other all-terrain vehicle.

The only ‘legal’ way to travel between the village and the rest of Bosnia-Herzegovina is by an by BiH border police escorted convoy through Croatia to the border crossing Strmica where people can enter Croatia legally.

Location: OpenStreetMap


----------



## ChrisZwolle

ChrisZwolle said:


> Another border debacle in Central Asia, the former route of Soviet M34. This road runs from Tashkent to Dushanbe, but crossed the border multiple times after 1991. They never built border posts and the road cannot be driven across this route anymore. There are ditches or walls to prevent traffic from crossing the border. Some parts have been broken up.
> 
> I'm not entirely sure about the exact routing in Hovos, it may have crossed slightly farther east.


At closer look, it appears that M34 ran through Istaravshan, slightly further east than this map. 

Uzbekistan closed almost all border crossings in the 1990s, out of the original 16 designated border crossings, only 2 remained open (Tursunzoda and Bostun). They also extensively mined the border area. Satellite images also show that the whole road and border crossings were demolished on the Uzbek side around 2011.

They have reopened most border crossings in 2017-2018 after Uzbek president Karimov passed away. His successor Mirziyoyev dramatically improved the foreign relations with Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan. 

Judging by the satellite imagery, Uzbekistan has built new border crossings at each of the three crossings of the former M34 route, they restored the roadways and built structures that could function as a regular border crossings. However, according to those satellite images, Tajikistan has not yet built a border crossing on their side at these locations, so it is unclear as to what extent these border crossings are functional. They could be freight-only, or be 'bilateral' (meaning not open to anyone but Uzbek and Tajik citizens).


----------



## Eulanthe

Strange day yesterday:

I returned from Croatia to Poland, expecting at least some nonsense on the borders. Quite the opposite...

Croatia-Slovenia - with a detour to look at other crossings (Banfi-Razkrizje) - very little traffic crossing the border. No hassle actually crossing - Croatia didn't do an exit check, and all the Slovenian police did was scan the documents. No information about compulsory transit or quarantine, not even an attempt to tell us about the 12 hour transit rule. 

Slovenia-Austria (Gornja Radgona - Bad Radkersburg) - simple visual check of documents by the Austrians, no information about compulsory transit or questions about where we'd been. No sign of Slovenian police on entry or exit, and the Slovenian hut used by their border police was closed up and empty. I saw several non SLO/A cars crossing into Slovenia without control as well.

Austria-Czech Republic (Drasenhofen-Mikoluv) - no sign of any Czech police anywhere. Austrians were controlling entry at Drasenhofen, but again, just quick visual checks.

Czech Republic-Poland (D1/A1) - no sign of any Czech police anywhere, but the Polish side has erected a seemingly permanent checkpoint. Traffic has to slow down to 60km/h, and there's a container used for border control purposes placed at the side of the road. The border guard were there, but not actually controlling anyone.


----------



## Adrian.02

You could have transited through Hungary if that helped.


----------



## Eulanthe

Could have, but the reports from Hungary are pretty crappy - you not only have to transit via Budapest, but also comply with pretty strict restrictions on pain of being fined a large amount of money. Polish people reported that the petrol stations that can be used are charging much, much more than standard ones, and you can't leave the transit routes. 

The rules in Austria and Slovenia are much looser - they aren't dictating the use of specific routes, nor are they bothering people for things like stopping to have a picnic or letting children play at a playground. Officially, there are restrictions, but in practice, they're not enforcing them as long as you don't stay overnight.

So, it's really not worth going via Hungary.


----------



## Adrian.02

Eulanthe said:


> Could have, but the reports from Hungary are pretty crappy - you not only have to transit via Budapest, but also comply with pretty strict restrictions on pain of being fined a large amount of money. Polish people reported that the petrol stations that can be used are charging much, much more than standard ones, and you can't leave the transit routes.
> 
> The rules in Austria and Slovenia are much looser - they aren't dictating the use of specific routes, nor are they bothering people for things like stopping to have a picnic or letting children play at a playground. Officially, there are restrictions, but in practice, they're not enforcing them as long as you don't stay overnight.
> 
> So, it's really not worth going via Hungary.


True,but in Austria,for example,you are theoretically banned from stopping and fueling up,according to the austrian rules.
When I came home from holiday in july,I even exited the highway in Hungary to go shopping.


----------



## bogdymol

Adrian.02 said:


> True,but in Austria,for example,you are theoretically banned from stopping and fueling up,according to the austrian rules


Nobody will fine you in Austria if you just stop at a petrol station to fill up the car, or to go to the bathroom, or to get something quick to eat. As long as the stop is short and reasonable there will be no issues.


----------



## Eulanthe

bogdymol said:


> Nobody will fine you in Austria if you just stop at a petrol station to fill up the car, or to go to the bathroom, or to get something quick to eat. As long as the stop is short and reasonable there will be no issues.


Yes, this is the difference between Austria and Hungary. Hungary is really paying close attention to people using the transit routes to the point where cars are getting special transit stickers, whereas Austria is simply asking people to be reasonable. I asked the police at the border if I could stop for a picnic and to let my kid run, and they said it wasn't a problem as long as I didn't do anything stupid or unreasonable, like going sightseeing.


----------



## italystf

Eulanthe said:


> Could have, but the reports from Hungary are pretty crappy - you not only have to transit via Budapest, but also comply with pretty strict restrictions on pain of being fined a large amount of money. Polish *people reported that the petrol stations that can be used are charging much, much more than standard ones, and you can't leave the transit routes*.
> 
> The rules in Austria and Slovenia are much looser - they aren't dictating the use of specific routes, nor are they bothering people for things like stopping to have a picnic or letting children play at a playground. Officially, there are restrictions, but in practice, they're not enforcing them as long as you don't stay overnight.
> 
> So, it's really not worth going via Hungary.


DDR nostalgia...


----------



## italystf

Due to Covid the US-Canadian border is closed too, as Canada doesn't accept visitors from its southern neighbour. The only exception is transit between Alaska and mainland USA. Thus, some Americans have been arrested for visiting Canada illegally with the excuse of travelling from/to Alaska.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A new road opened to traffic today in Omsk oblast, Russia to bypass a section of Kazakhstan. Road R390 (GM) or 52K-3 (OSM) runs from Omsk to Russkaya Polyana. It passes 10 kilometers through Kazakhstan territority, even though there are no border crossings. The new route allows traffic to and from Russkaya Polyana to stay within Russia. 

In Soviet times the R390 was a secondary road along the west side of the Irtysh River, as an alternate route from Omsk to Pavlodar (M-38 was the main road). An actual border crossing was installed south of Russkaya Polyana, though there is a 15 kilometer unpaved section between Russkaya Polyana and the border crossing. It doesn't look like a busy crossing.





__





Архив новостей | Официальный интернет-сайт Федерального дорожного агентства


Федеральное дорожное агентство : Росавтодор




rosavtodor.gov.ru


----------



## Eulanthe

Akyar (North Cyprus) - Strovilia (United Kingdom) crossing point, showing the Aykar side. I believe there is some controversy here over the location of the North Cyprus checkpoint, though I'm not 100% on the details. From what I understand, the checkpoint is located in what was 'no mans land' until 2000 when North Cyprus annexed the area. It seems that the UN Buffer Zone on the island never existed between the UK and North Cyprus, hence the UK considered this area to be under North Cypriot control despite the fact that the Turkish forces didn't occupy it between 1974-2000.


----------



## Corvinus

^^ Now that's a real international boundary, between (the occupied part of) Cyprus and a sovereign area of the UK.
The "usual" RoC - North Cyprus crossing points (of which tons have been posted in this thread already) are *not* actual border crossings, as there is Cypriot territory on both sides.

On the other hand, there is a good number of invisible crossings between RoC and UK sovereign area territories.


----------



## Eulanthe

Corvinus said:


> ^^ Now that's a real international boundary, between (the occupied part of) Cyprus and a sovereign area of the UK.
> The "usual" RoC - North Cyprus crossing points (of which tons have been posted in this thread already) are *not* actual border crossings, as there is Cypriot territory on both sides.


If I understand the current legal theory correctly: The RoC regards them as a "crossing point", while North Cyprus refers to them as a "border gate", but neither side regards them as being an international border crossing. The UK - North Cyprus border is really the same story - the UK carries out checks according to the RoC laws (although it should be stressed that the UK method of policing is visibly different - they're much more focused on goods than people, and they rarely check people when leaving to North Cyprus), and North Cyprus seemingly treats the North Cyprus-UK border identically. 

There are still a lot of unsolved questions about what will happen at the end of the year, as according to EU law, the RoC would be obliged to erect a Customs barrier between the UK and the RoC at that time - which is unthinkable. There's more information here: Documents considered by the Committee on 18 July 2018 - European Scrutiny Committee - House of Commons 

Another interesting note about the UK border police/customs: usually at the crossings, they are local Greek/Turkish Cypriots on duty. 



> On the other hand, there is a good number of invisible crossings between RoC and UK sovereign area territories.


Yes, it's mostly invisible by design. However, I believe that it is required to carry your passport/ID card when travelling between the two.


----------



## Eulanthe

This one is a surprising discovery: it's the border crossing between Heinrich-Heine-Straße (West Berlin) /Prinzenstraße (East Berlin). I was under the impression that the only 'modern' inner-Berlin crossing was at Friedrichstrasse, but it seems that this one also had a modern design. The picture itself is fascinating for many reasons - not only for the fact that travellers are warned about the 0.0 drink driving limit in the DDR, but also for the very strange layout of the border crossing itself, with traffic using the left side of the checkpoint to enter the DDR.

Unfortunately, I can't find any pictures from before November 1989 with this modern design - only the older post-1961 one pictures where the checkpoint was much more oppressive and concrete looking.










Something else: we discussed before about when the Baltic countries introduced border controls. The answer is here: Refworld | Estonia: Information on whether the republic is fully sovereign - although it's not quite clear if Estonia actually required visas from everyone from mid February 1992 as they claim. It would have been surprising if they actually introduced a visa regime with Finland, Sweden and Latvia for instance.


----------



## Eulanthe

In the "obscure border crossings of the EU" category, here's the Tallinn-4 border crossing. 

And also the Tallinn-2 border crossing. 

I also found the Tallinn-12 border crossing. 

With the visa question, I found out that Estonia was demanding visas until at least the mid 1990's from Western visitors, as was Latvia.


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## masala

Since the beginning of 2021, EU citizens can visit whole territory of Russia using e-visas and stay in the country up to 16 days. It cost $40, free for children up to 6 years.




__





Михаил Мишустин утвердил перечень государств, граждане которых смогут получить электронную визу


В список вошли 52 страны.




government.ru


----------



## bogdymol

This, of course, after we get rid of covid.


----------



## tfd543

masala said:


> Since the beginning of 2021, EU citizens can visit whole territory of Russia using e-visas and stay in the country up to 16 days. It cost $40, free for children up to 6 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Михаил Мишустин утвердил перечень государств, граждане которых смогут получить электронную визу
> 
> 
> В список вошли 52 страны.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> government.ru


Is it permanent or just a time-limited campaign?


----------



## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> In the "obscure border crossings of the EU" category, here's the Tallinn-4 border crossing.
> 
> And also the Tallinn-2 border crossing.
> 
> I also found the Tallinn-12 border crossing.
> 
> With the visa question, I found out that Estonia was demanding visas until at least the mid 1990's from Western visitors, as was Latvia.


You might want to elaborate the word "obscure" here? Almost every harbour is a potential border crossing point.


----------



## Eulanthe

MattiG said:


> You might want to elaborate the word "obscure" here? Almost every harbour is a potential border crossing point.


Obscure in the sense of that these are rarely discussed or thought about as border crossings. Of course every harbour is a potential crossing point, but these ones are actively controlled as border crossings.

Anyway, more Cyprus: Again, Ledra Street/Lokmaci, showing UN peacekeepers in the Buffer Zone and the barricades on both the Republic of Cyprus and the North Cyprus sides of the street. It must be dated from around early 2008.










More from the Akyar (North Cyprus) - Strovilia (United Kingdom) crossing point. This has changed since this picture was taken - these days, there are cabins in the middle of the road so drivers don't have to get out of their cars.


















































































And the Pergamos (United Kingdom) - Beyarmudu (North Cyprus) crossing:














































Metehan (North Cyprus) - Ayios Demetios (Republic of Cyprus) crossing gate:

This picture is interesting for the fact that it welcomes you to the Nicosia Turkish Municipality, which is the official name of North Nicosia. 
































































I believe this photo shows the old and new arrangements: previously, drivers had to get out of the car at the North Cyprus crossings. Now, they built new containers that are next to the road, so you can pass documents over without getting out of the car.


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## Theijs

Eulanthe said:


> North Cyprus - Republic of Cyprus crossing gate:


Is there a difference in driving direction on Greek Cyprus vs Turkish Cyprus?
(Please ignore my ignorance)


----------



## Eulanthe

Theijs said:


> Is there a difference in driving direction on Greek Cyprus vs Turkish Cyprus?
> (Please ignore my ignorance)


Nothing to forgive, it's a fair question  

No, they both drive on the left. I don't think this sign exists anymore, but I think the original point was that it was to give Turkish Cypriots a faster route through the North Cypriot checkpoint. These days, they scan everyone's documents, including Turkish Cypriots, so there's no division and all lanes are open to everyone.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

a turkish flag with the turkish Cyprus one


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## Eulanthe

A couple of signs that attracted controversy at the Ledra Street / Lokmaci crossing in Nicosia. The reason for the controversy is that there was apparently an agreement not to have such signs at this crossing. The other issue is that this "Welcome to Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" sign is visible from the RoC-controlled territory, so it was regarded as a provocation. 



















From the Dherinya (Republic of Cyprus) - Kato Dherinya (North Cyprus) crossing: 

I'm not sure what's going on here, because when I crossed, both sides of the crossing were in use. Perhaps traffic levels were so low that it didn't make sense to use more lanes?










Insurance costs for non-Northern Cyprus registered cars: Green Cards aren't valid here. 










Limnitis (Republic of Cyprus) - Yeşilırmak (North Cyprus) crossing:
























































Astromeritis (Republic of Cyprus) - Bostancı (North Cyprus)










This one is interesting because the word "border" is used. Normally in English, they use the words "crossing gate" in North Cyprus.


----------



## KRX_69

*Portugal - Spain Border (Vale da Mula - Aldea del Obispo)*

01.

Av. de Portugal by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

02.

Fronteira PT-ES by Carlos Amaro, no Flickr

👍


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## bogdymol

2 weeks ago I hiked to the point where Austria, Germany and Czech Republic meet.

I parked my car in Austria, nearby. But while hiking up the small mountain I crossed also into Germany. 

This directional sign is interesting. It is in Germany, has German-type signage on it (for tourists), but the yellow sign at the bottom is Austrian showing you which way to go to reach the car park in Austria where I left my car. And actually the sign was directing you to go further into Germany, not return to Austria (in that place it made sense to be like that):










Tri-point area as seen from further away in Germany. Yes, 2 weeks ago there was snow over there. But only at the top. In the valley where I parked my car there was no sign of snow.










German border stone:










Tri-point as seen from Germany:










Tri-point as seen from Austria:










Tri-point as seen from Czech Republic:










At the top was a typical example of how snowmen will look like this winter:


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## MichiH

^^ Looks like a tree cemetery....


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## bogdymol

I wonder how they ended up looking like this.


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## ChrisZwolle

I went on vacation to the Czech Republic near Liberec in the early 2000s (I believe it was 2000 or 2001). The forests in that area looked like that as well, the story was that it was due to acid rain from polluting factories in East Germany and Poland. 

But that problem has been resolved a long time ago. Maybe it's a kind of beetle that destroys forests. I don't think they have wildfires there.


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## MichiH

bogdymol said:


> I wonder how they ended up looking like this.











Forest dieback - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





We were taught this in 1980s when I was in elementary school.... it was quite green dictated.... and pupils were scared about the future....


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## MattiG

bogdymol said:


> I wonder how they ended up looking like this.


A forest fire 10-15 years ago?


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## stickedy

I think it's because of one of the heavy storms in the past.

Edit:
Yes, it was Kyrill in 2010: Kyrill legt sechs Millionen Bäume um (Dreisessel is close to the Tripoint)


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## Palance

I wonder how it looked like over there during the cold war


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## Alex_ZR

Why don't someone just cut the dead trees and plant new ones?


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## bogdymol

Ask the Czechs. Most of the dead threes are in the Czech Republic.


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## stickedy

It costs money, bringing out the wood damages the whole nature there and as you can see in the pictures, there are already plenty of new trees there growing fine. Nature can help itself pretty good without humans.


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## Eulanthe

ChrisZwolle said:


> I went on vacation to the Czech Republic near Liberec in the early 2000s (I believe it was 2000 or 2001). The forests in that area looked like that as well, the story was that it was due to acid rain from polluting factories in East Germany and Poland.


From what I understand, each side blames the other. The Polish story is that the Czechs put their factories next to the border, which caused the damage. There is some truth in that, but then again, the Poles also put some dreadful things next to the Czech and German borders as well. 



> But that problem has been resolved a long time ago.


No, it hasn't. Acid rain is still a huge problem in the triangle between Wrocław, Prague and Dresden. It's better than it was, but it's still pretty awful by European standards.


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## MattiG

stickedy said:


> It costs money, bringing out the wood damages the whole nature there and as you can see in the pictures, there are already plenty of new trees there growing fine. Nature can help itself pretty good without humans.


True. And even dead trees protect the ground from erosion.


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## mgk920

MattiG said:


> True. And even dead trees protect the ground from erosion.


And as the dead tree decomposes, it provides shelter and sustenance to many species of fauna and flora, nesting spots for many birds and small mammals, insects, etc. Also nutrients for the soil.

It's all part of the cycle of nature.

Mike


----------



## italystf

Tomorrow Slovenia will close the border with Italy. It will remain open only to freight, for work reasons, for health reasons, and to transit between Italy-Croatia and Italy-Hungary.
Today very long queues of Italians attempting to cross the border to buy cheaper fuel and cigarettes have been reported at many border crossings.


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## ChrisZwolle

Remarkable, a three-way border crossing between Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.


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## alserrod

AFAIK it is the only way to enter into Russia without VISA as many times as you want. It is enought to drive through the roundabout so much...

I think it is an intelligent solution. One booth for each country, three borders.

Could it apply to any tripoint in the world too??? (or are they unreachable by road)?


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## italystf

It's also the only way to travel by road between Russia and Belarus as a foreigner (neither Russian nor Belarussian).
The Russian-Belarussian border is closed to citizens of third countries, but this route is allowed, as it counts as a transit through Ukraine.

I'm not aware of any other tri-national border crossing in the world.


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## eucitizen

italystf said:


> It's also the only way to travel by road between Russia and Belarus as a foreigner (neither Russian nor Belarussian).
> The Russian-Belarussian border is closed to citizens of third countries, but this route is allowed, as it counts as a transit through Ukraine.
> 
> I'm not aware of any other tri-national border crossing in the world.


You are right, though in June this year Russia nd BY finally signed the agreement of mutual recognition of their visa, so there will be no more problems to go tuňo russia through BY. But the agreement isn´t still in force, moreover we have the coronavirus issue.


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## valkrav

ChrisZwolle said:


> a three-way border crossing between Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.


unformally named "three sisters" (три сестры)


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## Verso

alserrod said:


> Could it apply to any tripoint in the world too??? (or are they unreachable by road)?


It wouldn't make much sense at most tripoints. It might make sense on flat terrain.


----------



## Sponsor

MichiH said:


> Forest dieback - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We were taught this in 1980s when I was in elementary school.... it was quite green dictated.... and pupils were scared about the future....





stickedy said:


> I think it's because of one of the heavy storms in the past.


The primary cause was *changing the natural forest composition and planting non-native spruce trees *which dominated its composition overall*. *This made the forest less stable and much more vulnerable to harsh climate and this little guy.


----------



## alserrod

Verso said:


> It wouldn't make much sense at most tripoints. It might make sense on flat terrain.



I bet so... Oceania is full of islands, America hasn't so many tripoints.... in addition some borders are in the sandy areas of a desert (there are full of them in Africa but I do not know where in hell they will make duties) and... rivers.
We can add that if cases as Schengen or treats with free-movements among countries, there's non-sense too.

Anyway, Poland, Lithuania and Russia could have one here








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





I bet forest is Russia, isn't it?

There are some other corners where it could have sense, not many indeed (Mongolia, Russia and China eastbound too)


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## Verso

^^ I don't see any purpose in either of those, especially I don't see why Mongolia should build a border crossing in that remote corner.


----------



## Ingenioren

Norway - Sweden border near the lake Vammen:
2020-11-08_08-13-51 by André Wauthier, on Flickr

One of the many divided islands on the border, it makes a 90 degree turn here so a tiny part of the island is in Sweden:

2020-11-08_08-14-02 by André Wauthier, on Flickr


----------



## alserrod

I found this curious border crossing









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





This road is inside Portugal. Trees ahead are partially in Portugal (left) and Spain (right). Unpaved path keeps in the same border for several kilometres and later it will get inside Spain.

Obviously it seems it hasn't had any booth there


----------



## Eulanthe

I'm doing some research on the Spanish-Portuguese border now, and I've found this interesting sign from a previous era near Badajoz. There's also this even more interesting one in the direction of Portugal. 

Apparently this checkpoint here - Children waving European flags to celebrate the removal of the border between Spain and Portugal (4 March 1988) - was at this location. The current day location is seemingly here.


----------



## alserrod

Spain and Portugal joined EU in 1986. I went to Portugal that summer and there were controls, obviously. There was a lot of traffic and controls weren't hard indeed, but they were.

AFAIK, controls were being relaxed till Schengen-area but I would bet in 1988 they still remained.


----------



## tfd543

They both joined Schengen in 1995 so 1988 must have been a special temporary agreement or ?


----------



## tfd543

Apparently it was abolition of customs..









Abolition of customs checks at the border between Spain and Portugal (Caya, 4 March 1988)


On 4 March 1988, in Caya, Badajoz, Manuel Marín, Abel Matutes and António Cardoso e Cunha, Members of the European Commission, take part in a symbolic ceremony to mark the abolition of customs checks at the border between Spain and Portugal.



www.cvce.eu


----------



## Eulanthe

It doesn't make any sense to me, because customs checks weren't abolished until 1993 on inner-EU borders. There are plenty of photos on Google showing that day - for instance French Spanish Border Post In Hendaye, January 1, 1993. - shows the removal of the customs checks just after midnight at the old Hendaye/Irun motorway crossing.

The only thing I can think of is that there might have been some special agreement between Portugal and Spain to remove customs checks, or at least to lighten them?

I think it's just a wrong translation though, because I've never heard of any such agreement. It seems more likely that they were celebrating the opening of a modern border crossing.

(edit: I think I know what happened. If you look on the Portuguese side, there's a "Bairro da Guarda Fiscal". I can't say for sure what this place is, but it's likely to have been some place where customs controls were carried out. What they probably did was remove the infrastructure from the Portuguese side and set up a modern "one-stop" crossing on the Spanish side. There would have been no need to have large areas for customs controls after both Spain and Portugal joined the EU, so this would explain the "abolition of customs checks" - most crossings by that point were just a quick check of paperwork and a look at the load, nothing else. It's hard to get a good view of the border, but this was definitely where Portugal used to carry out border controls.)

(edit edit: There's also this large carpark in the Barrio da Guarda Fiscal for trucks - so I guess what happened was that they downsized the previous border crossing? It would be interesting to find some historical pictures from the early 1980's or 1970's from this place...)

(edit x3) This is definitely the old customs house on the right - backed up by this website. And there's a strange article here saying that customs checks were abolished in 1988 there, but it's clearly not true. This article (with some interesting photos of inside the Spanish customs house) claims that the checks ended in 1991, but that's also not true... Having checked the first article again, it seems that it was a 'symbolic' ending to customs checks more than anything. They opened a new modern checkpoint (probably because people were travelling much more once Spain and Portugal joined the EEC) - and this was probably a way of showing that the customs checks would soon be dead - as they had already signed the Single European Act to get rid of customs checks on the internal EEC borders).


----------



## Coccodrillo

eucitizen said:


> You are right, though in June this year Russia nd BY finally signed the agreement of mutual recognition of their visa, so there will be no more problems to go tuňo russia through BY. But the agreement isn´t still in force, moreover we have the coronavirus issue.


By train transit through Belarus has been possible for a while: Berlin - Moscow trains, book Berlin Moscow train tickets online with RussianRail


----------



## tfd543

Eulanthe said:


> It doesn't make any sense to me, because customs checks weren't abolished until 1993 on inner-EU borders. There are plenty of photos on Google showing that day - for instance French Spanish Border Post In Hendaye, January 1, 1993. - shows the removal of the customs checks just after midnight at the old Hendaye/Irun motorway crossing.
> 
> The only thing I can think of is that there might have been some special agreement between Portugal and Spain to remove customs checks, or at least to lighten them?
> 
> I think it's just a wrong translation though, because I've never heard of any such agreement. It seems more likely that they were celebrating the opening of a modern border crossing.
> 
> (edit: I think I know what happened. If you look on the Portuguese side, there's a "Bairro da Guarda Fiscal". I can't say for sure what this place is, but it's likely to have been some place where customs controls were carried out. What they probably did was remove the infrastructure from the Portuguese side and set up a modern "one-stop" crossing on the Spanish side. There would have been no need to have large areas for customs controls after both Spain and Portugal joined the EU, so this would explain the "abolition of customs checks" - most crossings by that point were just a quick check of paperwork and a look at the load, nothing else. It's hard to get a good view of the border, but this was definitely where Portugal used to carry out border controls.)
> 
> (edit edit: There's also this large carpark in the Barrio da Guarda Fiscal for trucks - so I guess what happened was that they downsized the previous border crossing? It would be interesting to find some historical pictures from the early 1980's or 1970's from this place...)


There is a PDF doc here with drawings of the crossing. I Cant understand it but i Think they moved to controls under the same roof as u mentioned.



https://www.boe.es/boe/dias/1988/02/01/pdfs/A03403-03406.pdf


----------



## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> There is a PDF doc here with drawings of the crossing. I Cant understand it but i Think they moved to controls under the same roof as u mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.boe.es/boe/dias/1988/02/01/pdfs/A03403-03406.pdf


That's a great find, thank you!

Yes, they definitely moved to a single site on the Spanish side in Caya. It looks like this treaty in 1981 was signed, creating the possibility of juxtaposed border controls, and this border crossing was built according to that treaty. Probably the old Spanish crossing was where the new crossing was built, which explains why the layout is so strange for a modern checkpoint built in the late 80's.


----------



## Eulanthe

Some new findings: 

*Pietraszyn (PL) - Sudice (CZ)



































*


----------



## SRC_100

🔼🔼
The first 3 picture are outdated very much. 
Only the last one shows how the border looks like now, take a look on GSM:

towards CZ ➡ Mapy Google
towards PL ➡Mapy Google
Ex-broder crossing/checking is on the polish side. The real border is *here*


----------



## Eulanthe

I forgot to write the dates there!

The first three are from 28/12/07, just six days after controls were abandoned. The last one is from 2009.

What I find interesting is that a lot of the border infrastructure was already decaying in 2007, although all of this (with the exception of the office building) dates from after 1990. For instance, it looks like the weighing equipment was already out of use in 2007.


----------



## Eulanthe

Some very small pictures from the PL borders in Lower Silesia, but interesting nonetheless. They appear to be quite old - hard to tell exactly when though. Maybe from around 2000? They're definitely from before Poland joined the EU, as many of the PL/DE borders still had separate checks at either side of the border, whereas in 2004, they moved to the "one stop" model. 



Zarz±d Przej¶æ Granicznych Jelenia Gora



It seems that from my research, there were several border crossings between PL/CZ that were planned but never opened, particularly in the mountains. I'm still trying to find out more, because all I've found is vague references on different forums.


----------



## italystf

*Armenia - Azerbaijan border*

As many people know, the two post-Soviet countries have been in a state of cold war since USSR has collapsed (but violent riots already broke out during Gorbachev presidency), as Armenia occupied the SW part of Azerbaijan called Artsakh (formerly known as Nagorno Karabakh). The border have been sealed since then, in a similar way of the border between North and South Korea.

Now things are going to change. Most of Artsakh have returned under Azerbaijani control after a brief conflict in fall 2020 and Armenia and Azerbaijan have signed a ceasefire agreement.
Azerbaijan will allow transit between Armenia and the part of Artsakh that remained independent (that is no longer bordering Armenia, but it became an enclave within Azerbaijan). Armenia will allow transit between mainland Azerbaijan and the Azerbaijani exclave of Nackchivan.


















2020 Nagorno-Karabakh ceasefire agreement - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Theijs

I expect that border check points will be installed on the border of Armenia and the territory of Artsakh/Nakorno Karabach that will be handed over to Azerbijan in the coming week(s).
For example at the end of the M11, east of lake Sevan and the town of Sotk.


----------



## italystf

^^ There won't be any Armenia-Artsakh border anymore, as the latter will become an enclave within Azerbaijan. Two roads through Azerbaijani territory will remain open to allow transit between Armenia and Artsakh. On the other hand, Armenia will allow Azerbaijani transit between Nakhchivan and the rest of Azerbaijan.
It probably will be something similar to the former "transit corridors" between West Berlin and the BRD through the DDR.
The border between Armenia/Artsakh and (Azerbaijani controlled part of) Azerbaijan have been one of the most militarized areas in the world in the past 25 years, comparable maybe to the DMZ between the two Koreas or the border between Israel and the Gaza Strip.
Armenia and Azerbaijan are officially still at war each other. Hopefully things will change now.


----------



## Theijs

My point is: the border Armenia-Artsakh (which had no checks I believe) will become a border crossing point Armenian-Azerbijan.

Lets hope that in 5 years from now the tensions have flawed and the truce transformed in a final peace agreement between AM and AZ for the well being of all inhabitans.


----------



## Eulanthe

There were border checks between Armenia-Artsakh, as the Republic of Artsakh has an independent immigration policy. I'm not sure about how Armenia handled things, but Artkash required (until very recently) a visa that had to be obtained in the capital after you registered your entry at the border. 

Russian peacekeepers are now officially present at the Lachin Pass, and Azerbaijan have reclaimed the territories that were under Armenian (not Artsakh) control. The Lachin Pass (the narrow corridor on the map in brown) is officially under Armenian control, but they will withdraw their military forces from that area. Russian peacekeepers will be deployed there, but Armenia and Artsakh will continue to treat it as an international border. In the next few years, a new road will be constructed as to avoid the town of Shusha which is now under Azerbaijani control, allowing direct transit between Armenia and Artsakh without going through Azerbaijan, and restoring the direct border between the two. 

It's not yet clear exactly how transit through Shusha will work, but I'd expect something similar to the DDR transit with strict time limits and regulations as to what you can and can't do in transit. 

In the south, the Azerbaijani transit corridor will be controlled by Russian peacekeepers, who will also conduct transport controls on the route. 

IMO, this may be the final settlement in this case. I do hope that an agreement can be found to at least recognise the Republic of Artkash as an independent country, especially as Azerbaijan has said that they consider this to be the end of the occupation by Armenian forces.


----------



## italystf

^^ From the map I posted it looks like they are planning to build a bypass of Shusha to avoid crossing through Azerbaijani land. Of course, it isn't something it can be built overnight.

Another historical precedent is when, during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, Arabs captured a sections of the only road then connecting Jerusalem with the coast. So, Jerusalem was isolated until Israeli built another road across mountains. Still today, the motorway and the new high speed line between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem crosses lands outside the Green Line that are officially part of Palestine, but occupied by Israel (when an Italian company built a part of the HSR line, some controversies arose in Italy as it was like a de facto recognition of the occupation).

Anyway, the international community won't recognize Artsakh unless Azerbaijan will do it. And it won't happen anytime soon.


----------



## Ingenioren

The bridge from Norway to Sweden today, trucks standing in line as far as the eye can see....

2020-11-20_12-34-58 by André Wauthier, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

What's happening there?


----------



## Ingenioren

Don't know really, i was just in the woods longing for going abroad when i spotted it


----------



## Eulanthe

ChrisZwolle said:


> What's happening there?


No information about it online, so it might just have been a queue caused by too many trucks clearing customs into the EU. The Swedish customs station there is quite small and doesn't have many parking places for trucks. It's possible that Sweden also has enhanced checks for trucks due to the border being shut to Sweden?



italystf said:



> ^^ From the map I posted it looks like they are planning to build a bypass of Shusha to avoid crossing through Azerbaijani land. Of course, it isn't something it can be built overnight.


Yup, that's the plan. I wonder if it will actually happen, as the terrain there is incredibly difficult to build on. I suppose Artsakh won't want to depend on an Azeri transit route, but it's hard to see where they could get the money from for the road. 



> Anyway, the international community won't recognize Artsakh unless Azerbaijan will do it. And it won't happen anytime soon.


Never say never. Azerbaijan held off conquering Stepnakent when they could have at little cost to themselves, and it could be a concession in exchange for guaranteeing the transit route to Nakhchivan with Russian peacekeepers. I don't think there's much strategic value to Artsakh as well, and ending the conflict would be positively seen internationally. 

From a border crossing POV, one major issue is that the newly renovated road over the Sotk Pass (the so-called "northern" route) is now out of use. The only route will be the "southern" route which is much worse.


----------



## geogregor

Speaking of the EU border. In Kent they are building massive car park next to M20 for all the lorries stuck in queues post Brexit. The idea is not to block the Port of Dover or Channel Tunnel terminal.

27-acre Kent field turned into 2,000-vehicle lorry park ahead of Brexit



> *Brexit: Workers turn 27-acre Kent field into 2,000-vehicle lorry park*
> 
> Facility nicknamed* Farage Garage* is just one of 29 such sites being created across England
> 
> New photos show how the county nicknamed the Garden of England may soon be more accurately described as the nation’s lorry park – thanks to Brexit preparations.
> 
> The images show the full jaw-dropping magnitude of a scheme which will see 27 acres of Kent’s green fields ripped up and concreted over to create a sprawling 2,000-vehicle holding facility for trucks crossing the Channel.
> 
> The development – nicknamed the Farage Garage and situated just off the M20 near Ashford – is being built by the government in case of a no-deal divorce from the EU in December.
> 
> Upon completion, the vast grey site will be used for HMRC customs checks, with an area available as a holding space when delays arise.
> 
> Yet, astonishingly, this sprawling space is one of only 29 such parks being built across England – all in order to cope with the expected border logjams.
> 
> Others are in Leicestershire, Warwickshire, Solihull, Kent, Essex, Yorkshire and Lincolnshire – where people have not been allowed a say on their location or construction.
> 
> The aerial pictures come as it was revealed that ministers were considering placing food and drink facilities and toilets alongside the M20 for truck drivers caught in major jams.
> 
> Speaking in a committee on Brexit preparedness, transport minister Rachel Maclean said: “It is absolutely vital we consider the welfare of drivers and hauliers as these are hardworking people, we rely on the haulage industry for a supply of critical goods and we must consider their welfare.
> 
> “We have detailed plans for provision of not only Portaloos but other facilities for drivers, not only in Kent if there is stationary traffic, but other places in the country.”







































Interestingly public consultations only started months after construction has started. I wish they had such speed of delivery on more important trasnport projects in the country but then, Brexit is a new god, normal rules don't need to apply...

Have your say on Brexit lorry park... four months after work began



> *Ashford Brexit lorry park consultation starts - four months after work began on site near Junction 10a*
> 
> Residents are being urged to have their say on Ashford's controversial post-Brexit lorry park – four months after work began on the site.





> Now ministers are keen for residents to share their views on the project, which was shrouded in secrecy in the summer when the government snapped up the site and started construction.
> 
> 
> Although 'enabling works' have been taking place since July, a Special Development Order (SDO) which allows the Secretary of State to grant planning permission still needs to be confirmed – and the 14-day public consultation forms part of that.
> 
> Residents now only have until Monday, October 26 to comment on the scheme, with the government saying any feedback received will "help shape details of the planning submission".


----------



## Corvinus

Found this one in a German heavy duty vehicles forum. Border crossing Zinnwald (DDR / CS). Year is not given.
Truck is Czechoslovak-registered, ČSAD was the state road transport company.










Source: Baumaschinenbilder.de - Forum | Oldtimer-LKWs | Fernlaster aus dem Ostblock, Türkei, Griechenland, Jugoslawien, Nahost bis Mitte der 90er


----------



## Adrian.02

Corvinus said:


> Found this one in a German heavy duty vehicles forum. Border crossing Zinnwald (DDR / CS). Year is not given.
> Truck is Czechoslovak-registered, ČSAD was the state road transport company.
> 
> View attachment 776405
> 
> 
> Source: Baumaschinenbilder.de - Forum | Oldtimer-LKWs | Fernlaster aus dem Ostblock, Türkei, Griechenland, Jugoslawien, Nahost bis Mitte der 90er


I can see a Citroën GSA in the picture,so I would say that the photo was taken in the early to mid 1980's.


----------



## geogregor

On the roads of Kent:

Brexit trial creates lorry queue at Eurotunnel



> Huge queues are building on the M20 amid French trials for post-Brexit procedures.
> 
> A long line of trucks have been halted in their efforts to access the Eurotunnel near Folkestone, with the jam stretching back to Junction 11.
> 
> A source has noted that traffic is normally heavier at the beginning of the week, but has been compounded by French authorities trialling post-Brexit boarding systems.
> 
> One motorist noted that police are barring entry to the motorway from Junction 11, and drivers are warned that anyone heading into Dover may have a delay.
> 
> The queues are not related to any police operations, with a police spokeswoman saying: "We have no reports of any particular incidents in that area which might cause congestion."





















And what has caused it? A check of 70 seconds per truck and driver...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1331302190300925958
It will be fun, bring on 2021


----------



## Adrian.02

Looks like the Hungarian-Romanian border on a busy day!😅😆


----------



## Markowice10

Hiking August 2020. Tripoint Slovakia - Czech Republic - Poland. 
Slovak side.


----------



## Markowice10

View on the Polish side.










Slovak border sign. 










The place of the triangle is in the stream bed.


----------



## Markowice10

Portugal - Spain border on the N-620 road from Guarda to Ciudad Rodrigo












Border signs.










Border signs.












The building of Portuguese customs office.













Entry to Spain.
Why the UK flag?


----------



## Markowice10

Spanish-Portuguese border on the Miño River.
The bridge on the N-551 Valença - Tui road was built by Gustave Eiffel (engineer who built the famous tower in Paris). 
The bridge has two floors: upper - railway and lower - road.


----------



## tfd543

Anyone knows when Racinovci-Jamena crossing Will open? Could be a good alternative to Batrovci which is crowded, even today.


----------



## stickedy

On recent satellite images I can't see any construction works on neither sides of the border


----------



## Corvinus

SRC_100 said:


> Entering to Swiss from Austria (Dipolsau/Hohenems) on 12.12.2020 there were no any checking on both sides. But coming back on 15.12.2020 (Au/Lustenau) Swiss border guards were checking befor enter to Swiss, on the other hand the queue was rather small.


Swiss customs officers being posted at the crossing and actively inspecting travelers is fairly common, regardless of the current pandemic. It is a customs border, and the majority of goods come at lower prices in the surrounding EU countries, so shopping tourism is common.
The _general_ duty free import allowance per traveler and day is rather generous at CHF 300.-, but there are very low duty-free limits on _specific_ products. Most notably meat (1 kg; tariffs if exceeded: CHF 17 per kg), low-degree alcoholic beverages (5 liters) and spirits (1 liter). 
After asking if anything to declare, the 2nd question of the border guard is typically about carrying any meat, and if yes, how much.


----------



## tfd543

stickedy said:


> On recent satellite images I can't see any construction works on neither sides of the border


They said Fall 2020. Lets hope for this Spring/Summer.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Netherlands just banned passenger ferries from the UK from making port in the Netherlands, effective immediately. There must be some kind of panic reaction, it was announced this Sunday at 10:30 p.m.

They even advise Dutch nationals unable to travel to the Netherlands to remain in the UK and seek shelter until further notice. 

Truck ferries will remain operational.


----------



## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Netherlands just banned passenger ferries from the UK from making port in the Netherlands, effective immediately. There must be some kind of panic reaction, it was announced this Sunday at 10:30 p.m.
> 
> They even advise Dutch nationals unable to travel to the Netherlands to remain in the UK and seek shelter until further notice.
> 
> Truck ferries will remain operational.


Politicians are in panic mode. Plain and simple. And logic is switched off. This new strain was already responsible for 25% cases in London... in November! It must be in continental Europe by now. Immediate border closures (even for truckers, as what France has done) are completely illogical.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I know someone who drove from the Netherlands into Germany, into Belgium, into France, back into Belgium and then into the Netherlands again (all today).

He said there were no border controls anywhere.


----------



## Eulanthe

Some major news - the UK, Gibraltar and Spain are negotiating to bring Gibraltar into Schengen, with passport controls at the airport and seaport carried out by European Frontex officers.

This would be huge if it comes true, as it would mean that most of the current infrastructure would be removed and the border transformed into something like the Norwegian or Swiss borders with the EU. Wow.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

funny, you are controlled if you come from Uk not from E


----------



## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> Some major news - the UK, Gibraltar and Spain are negotiating to bring Gibraltar into Schengen, with passport controls at the airport and seaport carried out by European Frontex officers.
> 
> This would be huge if it comes true, as it would mean that most of the current infrastructure would be removed and the border transformed into something like the Norwegian or Swiss borders with the EU. Wow.



That means:

- there will not be any passport control in the border

but

- there will remain freight custom control in the border

It is enough to see Andorra

There are almost empty passport booths (I have never been stopped when exit or entering from/to Spain and just once randomly by Andorran police)








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





but there's a rough custom control. I have been stopped every time I got off Andorra and .. popcorns when some image appear on TV








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





AFAIK, in the case of French side, you can choose between nothing to declare or something to declare. You can be stopped later and it will be smuggling


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Government restrictions in the Netherlands seem to have become panicky and ad-hoc.They are published late in the evening, in one case 24 minutes before coming into force.

23 December, 20:37 hrs, all international air travelers into the Netherlands are required to show a negative test before boarding from 29 December.
22 December, 23:37 hrs, all air travelers from UK and South Africa require a negative test from 23 December 0:01 hrs. (this is a 24 minute notice!)
20 December: 22:32 hrs, passenger ferries from UK are banned from Dutch ports, effective immediately


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> AFAIK, in the case of French side, you can choose between nothing to declare or something to declare. You can be stopped later and it will be smuggling


No, the new French controls don't use lanes, just verbal declarations.









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





AND->F: empty Andorran police/customs window, then an empty French police window. At the end, the booth belongs to the French customs, where you need to make a verbal declaration if you have anything to declare.









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





F->AND: Joint French police and customs booth (zoom in and check the signs on the booth - they make it clear that this is a Schengen border!), followed by Andorran police and customs booths. Surprisingly, both of them are manned.

Until they built this new joint French-Andorran control, entry controls to Andorra were carried out here: Google Maps - and Andorra had their police and customs authority present here: Google Maps

This was the old French customs post:
Andorra-France border








Poste de douane andorre


yann0993




mapio.net





BTW Alserrod - Gibraltar isn't part of the UK-EU deal, so it seems that they're quickly building new infrastructure in La Linea. There will be 8 lanes now - 4 on entry, 4 on exit, and there will be a division into EU/All Passports/Cross-border workers. There's some images here - https://www.elindependiente.com/esp...gibraltar-por-el-brexit/1349132/image/1349139 - it's not totally clear how the Spanish controls will look, though. I also don't know if they're going to continue allowing Gibraltar ID card holders the right to move across the frontier here - if anything, I'd guess that Spain will allow them, but they won't be permitted to travel further into the EU with the ID card alone.


----------



## bogdymol

ChrisZwolle said:


> 22 December, 23:37 hrs, all air travelers from UK and South Africa require a negative test from 23 December 0:01 hrs. (this is a 24 minute notice!)


What happened with the people that had a flight to catch early in the morning next day? Or what about those ones who were already in a plane, from somewhere far away (America/Africa/Asia) that had just a connecting flight in UK and then had to go to NL? It was impossible for them to get a test.



ChrisZwolle said:


> 20 December: 22:32 hrs, passenger ferries from UK are banned from Dutch ports, effective immediately


What about the ferries that were already on route or boarding in UK at that time?


----------



## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> No, the new French controls don't use lanes, just verbal declarations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AND->F: empty Andorran police/customs window, then an empty French police window. At the end, the booth belongs to the French customs, where you need to make a verbal declaration if you have anything to declare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F->AND: Joint French police and customs booth (zoom in and check the signs on the booth - they make it clear that this is a Schengen border!), followed by Andorran police and customs booths. Surprisingly, both of them are manned.
> 
> Until they built this new joint French-Andorran control, entry controls to Andorra were carried out here: Google Maps - and Andorra had their police and customs authority present here: Google Maps
> 
> This was the old French customs post:
> Andorra-France border
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poste de douane andorre
> 
> 
> yann0993
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mapio.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW Alserrod - Gibraltar isn't part of the UK-EU deal, so it seems that they're quickly building new infrastructure in La Linea. There will be 8 lanes now - 4 on entry, 4 on exit, and there will be a division into EU/All Passports/Cross-border workers. There's some images here - https://www.elindependiente.com/esp...gibraltar-por-el-brexit/1349132/image/1349139 - it's not totally clear how the Spanish controls will look, though. I also don't know if they're going to continue allowing Gibraltar ID card holders the right to move across the frontier here - if anything, I'd guess that Spain will allow them, but they won't be permitted to travel further into the EU with the ID card alone.



TBH , I have never crossed AND-F but, BTW, first picture is F-AND and all officers in the booths are Andorran, enough to read the language in their uniforms.
AND-E... I have been stopped once randomly by Andorran police, just to ask reason of visit and a fast luggage check and ALWAYS by Spanish police with a random luggage check. Never related with passports despite it is non Schengen area. In addition, it is enough any ID card (it is enough any documentation valid to entry into France OR Spain to entry into Andorra).

Some stories about Andorran border, main problem is black money. Further we will have tobacco or some goods with less taxes and it could worth to make smuggling, but mainly blackmoney (money sent in cash to Andorra, kept there and you want to return... in cash).
You are entitled to move up to 10.000 euro tax free. May you have more money you have to declare it. It will be for free but it must be declared.
Customs take advice about people with money near that amount. No fine, no inspection, just advice.

The weirdest situation I have ever watched in TV was... one man moved to Spain with 9500 euro. Police asked reason. He wanted to buy a Rolex but he hadn't enough money. He didn't have any credit card and so on.
Sent to custom office
First of all...he had been recorded he had crossed twice the border that day

uhhmmmm yeah, I crossed this morning, back, received a call and... blablabla
but this morning you had more or less the same amount
yeaaaah... because when coming back I was phoned and returned and...
but when we controlled you this morning we scanned ALL bank notes and they were different to these ones (serial number)
......

Smuggling


Therefore, If I had to guess I would bet for that situation in Gibraltar

Barely passport control
Rude custom control

Therefore, I would encourage to cross border on foot and take a bus

Smuggling in Gibraltar area is not smaller than in Andorra, just different, less money more goods


----------



## Eulanthe

Hard to say with Gibraltar really, relations are quite warm between them and Sanchez's government, and it seems that Gibraltar also wants to move away from the alcohol/cigarette tourism that it used to be known for. I remember Gibraltar back in the 1990's, and it was a horrible place. Main Street was full of shops selling cheap cigarettes and booze, and I remember how every car was searched on exit because so many people were smuggling cigarettes. 

Last time I was there, the Spanish Aduana were focusing more on obvious targets, but what I found interesting was that they didn't bother me even at night. For sure, the controls were much stronger coming from Ceuta than from Gibraltar, as everyone had their baggage checked in Algeciras. I suppose drugs are the reason, especially as the controls when entering Ceuta were very...well, light. 

On the topic of Gibraltar-Spain cooperation, I found this video a while ago: 






To explain: a Polish guy stole a Guardia Civil car that was parked up next to the border. He drives the car into Gibraltar, where the Gibraltarian police stop him. They drag him out of the car and throw him across the border, where he got arrested by the Spanish Guardia Civil. It seems to me that the Gibraltarian police might have stepped into Spain briefly, but it's a nice sign that they can cooperate on the ground. Apparently the Royal Gibraltar Police and the Policia National are starting to work together on joint operations too.


----------



## Vignole

UK, Spain and Gibraltar are dealing for the accession of Gibraltar into Schengen Area. Let's see what happens.



https://www.thelocal.es/20201225/gibraltar-still-hanging-after-brexit-deal-says-spains-pm


----------



## alserrod

Well... not exactly a border pass but partially

Astun ski resort is the only one operating nowadays in my region. Due to confinement, only people from the province can go skiing. It doesn't worth for most of resorts but, as far as they have enough snow, they decided to operate with some tracks

This image is the last one sent by their webcam today (date and hour are on the image).

I have ride in that chairlift in summer. It takes you from parking to upper mountains. Half an hour trekking and the border with France was there. I remember posting about it

And, mountain ahead in the image is... Midi d'Ossau in France. Border pass doesn't appear indeed. It is partially hidden in the image but any summit there bounds with France.

To reach there, quite easy, climb to Somport pass (border) and just 100m before, turn north for 2 km more


----------



## MichiH

German media reports that Gibraltar will join Schengen tomorrow. I'm not sure that it is already final though - seems to be a draft only.









Spain and UK reach draft deal on post-Brexit status of Gibraltar


British overseas territory had been left out of deal announced on Christmas Eve




www.theguardian.com


----------



## bogdymol

Euronews is reporting the same thing:









Spain and UK reach deal on placing Gibraltar in EU's borderless zone


Immigration checks at the land frontier between Spain and Gibraltar will end, while Spanish border officials will be stationed at Gibraltar's airport




www.euronews.com





This might be the fastest accession to Schengen area in history. Agreement took place today, border checks to be abolished this evening.


----------



## alserrod

The same news in the readest Spanish newspaper









España y el Reino Unido llegan a un “principio de acuerdo” para derribar la verja de Gibraltar


Londres y Madrid logran un pacto ‘in extremis’ horas antes de que se consume un Brexit duro




elpais.com







and from the same newspaper but written on December 23rd we have this news IN ENGLISH









Gibraltar to have border checks for UK arrivals, not for Spain, if deal is clinched


The role of European Frontex officers is the last hurdle to a last-minute agreement on the future relationship between the Rock and the surrounding area once the Brexit transition period ends




english.elpais.com





This newspaper is the top1 in sales in Spain. It has a brief English version online but just a couple of news and never breaking news (they have an accurate translation department, they do not make fake translations or so, therefore, breaking news with google...).

It will allow you for 10 free news per month (tip: if you erase cookies you will have 10 more). No problem... today's 31st!!!!


----------



## Penn's Woods

alserrod said:


> The same news in the readest Spanish newspaper
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> España y el Reino Unido llegan a un “principio de acuerdo” para derribar la verja de Gibraltar
> 
> 
> Londres y Madrid logran un pacto ‘in extremis’ horas antes de que se consume un Brexit duro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elpais.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and from the same newspaper but written on December 23rd we have this news IN ENGLISH
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gibraltar to have border checks for UK arrivals, not for Spain, if deal is clinched
> 
> 
> The role of European Frontex officers is the last hurdle to a last-minute agreement on the future relationship between the Rock and the surrounding area once the Brexit transition period ends
> 
> 
> 
> 
> english.elpais.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This newspaper is the top1 in sales in Spain. It has a brief English version online but just a couple of news and never breaking news (they have an accurate translation department, they do not make fake translations or so, therefore, breaking news with google...).
> 
> It will allow you for 10 free news per month (tip: if you erase cookies you will have 10 more). No problem... today's 31st!!!!


I used to have access to El País with my subscription to Le Monde. But that was years ago and I haven’t tried it lately.... my Spanish isn’t very good anyway.


----------



## tfd543

Ahem, how do you understand this then:


Gibraltar will not become a Schengen member, he said, but will become a Spanish entry point to the wider Schengen zone.

"Spain is a member of Schengen and she is extending the opportunity to enter into the Schengen area if you enter one of the entry points in Gibraltar, and Gibraltar has two entry points: ports and marinas, and the airport," Picardo said


----------



## Vignole

Here's an explananation from Chief Minister of Gibraltar:


----------



## Vignole

But meanwhile:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1344912359580688386


----------



## tfd543

Now Its a New day. Any confirmation on How Its being done ?


----------



## alserrod

Today there's not any press in Spain (maybe something online but just breaking news)


----------



## tfd543

Seems to be a free flow of traffic at the border, but I might be wrong. I am looking at the web cam.






Live - Frontier Queue Gibraltar







www.frontierqueue.gi


----------



## MichiH

Vignole said:


> But meanwhile:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1344912359580688386


They posted an update 3 hours ago: "_GBC understands that following representations passports are no longer being asked for ._"


----------



## bogdymol

What kind of visa does now a foreign person need to enter Gibraltar? Schengen or UK visa?

Let's take an Indian guy for example who wants to go there. He will fly from India to London then connecting to Gibraltar. Does he need a Schengen or a UK visa?

if Schengen, where does he get it from? UK embassy will issue Schengen visa?
if UK visa, then he will theoretically not be allowed to cross into Spain, although there are no more border checks?


----------



## MichiH

It is announced that the border checks are at the airport - even when arriving from UK - and in the harbor. I don't know about visa but assume that it is not yet agreed. It was just a quick shot to fix the immediate issues.


----------



## alserrod

bogdymol said:


> What kind of visa does now a foreign person need to enter Gibraltar? Schengen or UK visa?
> 
> Let's take an Indian guy for example who wants to go there. He will fly from India to London then connecting to Gibraltar. Does he need a Schengen or a UK visa?
> 
> if Schengen, where does he get it from? UK embassy will issue Schengen visa?
> if UK visa, then he will theoretically not be allowed to cross into Spain, although there are no more border checks?


Schengen visa and AFAIK, It can be delivered by any member State.

In the case of UK, since today they can stay 3+3 months per year in EU without visa (It means return to UK after 3 months and stamp the passport again). It will run conversely but I think there are more British living in the EU on holidays all the year that EU citizens in UK.
There are just two ways 

no more than 6 months
ask for legal residence abroad


----------



## alserrod

Relating with Gibraltar, really.... few news indeed.

The only news I have read everywhere is Region of Andalusia request for "more control" .... Few lines I have read with the same text in some media.
But "control" is referred to covid19

At first, Andalusia region is entitled (according to laws) to forbid any local movement. It is forbidden indeed, controls are poor but you can be fined. You can enter/exit to Andalusia only for specific purposes. I would bet, 99% of legal purposes would be only for workers. Shopping, tourism or so on is forbidden (even into Andalusia, even out from.... and the same with most of Spanish regions). 

Next... I have read, starting today, Saturday, Gibraltar has set a local confinement to reduce infections.

Therefore, in the border, all news are related to covid19, not about police or passports.

(it is enough to see that in the Spanish forum there's a thread related to Gibraltar and without any post)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Norway has closed most of its border crossing and requires a corona test for all travelers.

A full list of open border crossings is listed at NRK (under 'åpent')









Norge har koronastengt grenseovergangene


Nær alle grenseoverganger inn i Norge på landeveien er stengt på grunn av koronatesting av alle som skal inn i landet. Her er listen over hvor det er stengt og hvor du kommer over.




www.nrk.no


----------



## 54°26′S 3°24′E

It should be noted that Norway has a quite high number of official and not so official cross-border roads to Sweden, but 9 (always) + 10 (day time) remain open now. It is recommended to use one of the 11 with on site test stations, though. If using one of the remaining 8 road border crossing, a test must be taken within 24 hours. Including air- and seaports, there are 38 legal entry points to Norway now. All visitors must register digitally before reaching the border point. The official information, with links to list of entry points with opening hours and the registration form can be found here: Border and border crossing

Although of course all the national/European routes, and some county roads are covered, this is actually a quite extreme measure historically. Normally there is a lot of uncontrolled traffic by car, boat, feet, and even ski to our neighbor countries, in particular over the 1630 km land border and sea border to Sweden. The new requirement does not apply for daily commuters and some other groups, though.

Both before and after these new measures, a negative Corona test must be taken within the last 72 hours before arrival in Norway and a quarantine is required for almost all visitors. For visitors without suitable accomondation, the quarantine will have to be spent in designated (but partly sponsored) hotels. You will still be allowed to go outside during the quarantine, though, as long as you do not go inside anywhere else and stay away from other people.








_*The old Svinesund bridge is now closed for traffic, while an onsite Covid-19 test is required for most visitors when entering Norway via E6, our land border crossing with the highest traffic volumes, using the new Svinesund bridge in the background.*_


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## Ingenioren

I was just out on the bridge, it's not physicly closed in any way and there is still a police checkpoint there. I was questioned by them ofcourse - (what sort of weird guy has a walk on the bridge in the middle of the night)

2021-01-03_02-07-16 by André Wauthier, on Flickr

2021-01-03_02-07-30 by André Wauthier, on Flickr


----------



## 54°26′S 3°24′E

Nice pictures! Reminds me of warm summer nights down there, although it was certainly not like that....

This is somewhat in conflict with the official information then, or did they actually allow traffic from Sweden to Norway at this point? Given that the only alternative nearby is a motorway, they might allow by exception some local traffic by foot, bike, tractor etc?

"All non-listed border crossing points are closed even if they are not physically barred. Any crossing other than crossings at open border crossing points is illegal."

PS: Could there be a road block on the Swedish side? The old bridge also appears closed on google maps now, with some (I guess unavoidable) queing building up on E6:


----------



## bogdymol

Long queues happening again right now while entering Austria from Hungary:










I drove there yesterday, and took the secondary crossing as there was a queue also on the motorway that started at the last exit in Hungary. On the secondary road the queue started where I marked the blue *X*, and it took me 1h15m to cross the border. Today I guess we're looking to 2-3 hours crossing time.


----------



## Sixhaven

bogdymol said:


> What kind of visa does now a foreign person need to enter Gibraltar? Schengen or UK visa?
> 
> Let's take an Indian guy for example who wants to go there. He will fly from India to London then connecting to Gibraltar. Does he need a Schengen or a UK visa?
> 
> if Schengen, where does he get it from? UK embassy will issue Schengen visa?
> if UK visa, then he will theoretically not be allowed to cross into Spain, although there are no more border checks?


Most probably, he needs a Spanish Schengen visa to enter Gibraltar. Spain, as Gibraltar's neighbouring Schengen member state, will be responsible as regards the European Union for the implementation of the Schengen acquis.

It is anticipated there will be two border controls for third-country nationals (which includes British citizens not resident in Gibraltar): one by Gibraltar's Borders and Coastguard Agency, giving entry into Gibraltar, and one by Frontex, giving entry into the Schengen Area.


----------



## Eulanthe

Google Maps - perhaps not an international border, but this is the former customs border between the Hamburg Freeport and Germany. This customs border was abolished in 2013, but before that, it was fully outside the EU Customs Union, and so there were systematic customs checks on entry/exit.

About Gibraltar - let's not be too hasty. It's already becoming clear that Spain wants to take part in the border controls, which is a red-line issue for Gibraltar.



bogdymol said:


> What kind of visa does now a foreign person need to enter Gibraltar? Schengen or UK visa?
> 
> Let's take an Indian guy for example who wants to go there. He will fly from India to London then connecting to Gibraltar. Does he need a Schengen or a UK visa?
> 
> if Schengen, where does he get it from? UK embassy will issue Schengen visa?
> if UK visa, then he will theoretically not be allowed to cross into Spain, although there are no more border checks?




As it stands (assuming that they don't complete the Spanish extension to the airport terminal, which was originally planned).

*Today *- our Indian friend needs a Gibraltar visa, which is issued through the UK system. That visa doesn't permit him to enter the UK. If he needs to transit in the UK, then he needs a UK visa too. The two aren't the same thing, so it can be problematic for travellers, especially as Gibraltar is known for a light touch visa regime.

He doesn't need a Schengen visa. There are still immigration and customs checks on the Gibraltar border as of today, although Spain isn't treating it as a full Schengen border. The reports suggest that Spain won't introduce full Schengen checks unless the two sides fail to agree a new treaty, so it stands, nothing much has changed.

Yes, he won't be able to visit the current Schengen area with the Gibraltar visa.

*After the signing of a EU-Gibraltar Treaty*

UK Transit issues will remain, but otherwise, he'll need a Schengen visa. The UK will issue such visas on behalf of Gibraltar, but Frontex will carry out the Schengen checks on behalf of Spain. So, he'll have to be authorised by both the domestic Gibraltar immigration police (representing Gibraltar) and by Frontex (representing Spain on behalf of the Schengen area).

The problematic issue - and one that needs to be resolved - is that Frontex will have a veto over who enters Gibraltar. Gibraltar has agreed in principle to non-Spanish Frontex officers doing just that, but Spain believes that Spanish officers will be involved in the Frontex mission there. Gibraltar has said a clear no to that, so now it's down to negotiations.

In theory, Gibraltar should join Schengen on the 1st July. I don't believe it though - it's more likely that the current situation will be prolonged, perhaps with the deal that non-Gibraltarians will be subjected to increased controls while leaving locals on both sides alone. It really needs a simple agreement between the EU and Gibraltar that Gibraltarians and EU citizens will be allowed to pass freely, while third-country nationals will be subjected to full Schengen controls. There's really no reason why such an agreement can't be made, although Gibraltar has been pushing to join Schengen for years.

It's really an unprecedented situation, and I'm not convinced that this will work as well as they think it might. The odd and strange thing is that there's really no reason why Gibraltar can't join Schengen as a normal member.


----------



## aubergine72

Eulanthe said:


> *After the signing of a EU-Gibraltar Treaty*
> 
> UK Transit issues will remain, but otherwise, he'll need a Schengen visa. The UK will issue such visas on behalf of Gibraltar, but Frontex will carry out the Schengen checks on behalf of Spain.


I don't think the UK can issue a Schengen visa. It was never a Schengen member before, let alone now. The Indian person will need a Schengen visa issued from any Schengen member.


----------



## Sixhaven

It seems highly unlikely to me too that the UK will issue a Schengen visa for Gibraltar. The UK does not have access to the Visa Information System database, nor full access to the SIS II and EUROPOL databases. Given that Gibraltar itself is not anticipated to become a Schengen member, there is no reason to give the UK authority to issue a Schengen visa.

While a Schengen visa gives entry to the entire Schengen Area, article 12(2) of the Schengen Convention requires the applicant of a visa to apply for a visa for the member state that is their main destination:



> Article 12 [...]
> 
> 2. The Contracting Party responsible for issuing such a visa shall in principle be that of the *main destination*. If this cannot be determined, the visa shall in principle be issued by the diplomatic or consular post of the Contracting Party of first entry.


Source: EUR-Lex - 42000A0922(02) - EN - EUR-Lex

The Indian person wanting to visit Gibraltar will thus need a Spanish Schengen visa.



Eulanthe said:


> *After the signing of a EU-Gibraltar Treaty*
> 
> UK Transit issues will remain, but otherwise, he'll need a Schengen visa. The UK will issue such visas on behalf of Gibraltar, but Frontex will carry out the Schengen checks on behalf of Spain. So, he'll have to be authorised by both the domestic Gibraltar immigration police (representing Gibraltar) and by Frontex (representing Spain on behalf of the Schengen area).
> 
> The problematic issue - and one that needs to be resolved - is that Frontex will have a veto over who enters Gibraltar. Gibraltar has agreed in principle to non-Spanish Frontex officers doing just that, but Spain believes that Spanish officers will be involved in the Frontex mission there. Gibraltar has said a clear no to that, so now it's down to negotiations.


Gibraltar has not said no to Spanish involvement in the Frontex operation. In the video posted by Vignole, Chief Minister Picardo said that he anticipates that Spain will participate according to the proportionality enshrined in the Frontex regulation.

Picardo also said it will be Spain, as the neighbouring Schengen member state, will be responsible as regards the European Union for the implementation of the Schengen acquis, thereby admitting that Spain will have the final say over who enters through the Schengen entry point. The whole controversy lies more in the framing of the agreement to the outside world, imho. The Spanish foreign minister emphasises that it will have the final say over who enters through the Schengen entry point, while Picardo emphasises that there will also be a Gibraltar entry point over which Gibraltar's Border and Coast Guard Agency will have the final say, and that the Schengen entry point will be managed by a Frontex operation (though ultimately under Spanish authority).


----------



## Ingenioren

54°26′S 3°24′E said:


> PS: Could there be a road block on the Swedish side?


Could be, could also be they are late in implementing it, i was at Kornsjø yesterday it was not closed either, i even saw a pickup drive over. At those small roads there is never police.

Bonus: A border "bridge" near Asketjern(two planks)
2021-01-04_04-37-40 by André Wauthier, on Flickr


----------



## Verso

MichiH said:


> German media reports that Gibraltar will join Schengen tomorrow. I'm not sure that it is already final though - seems to be a draft only.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spain and UK reach draft deal on post-Brexit status of Gibraltar
> 
> 
> British overseas territory had been left out of deal announced on Christmas Eve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


So, when Gibraltar was in EU – no Schengen. But now when it's not in EU any more – Schengen. Makes a lot of sense.


----------



## bogdymol

It's called politics. It does not have to make sense.


----------



## 54°26′S 3°24′E

Ingenioren said:


> Could be, could also be they are late in implementing it, i was at Kornsjø yesterday it was not closed either, i even saw a pickup drive over. At those small roads there is never police.


Well, as mentioned, it is illegal to cross over from Sweden even if the road is not physically closed or signposted as closed. Day-commuters may possibly excempt from long detours, though. 

It will take a huge effort to seal the whole border, but I would assume that for most guest workers, who the new regulations mostly are designed for, becoming an illegal immigrant just to avoid taking a free Covid-19 test does not make much sense.

Btw, the sign translates to "The national border follows the creek". I hope you did your patriotic duty, André, and adjusted that brook just a little bit ;-)


----------



## MattiG

54°26′S 3°24′E said:


> Well, as mentioned, it is illegal to cross over from Sweden even if the road is not physically closed or signposted as closed. Day-commuters may possibly excempt from long detours, though.
> 
> It will take a huge effort to seal the whole border, but I would assume that for most guest workers, who the new regulations mostly are designed for, becoming an illegal immigrant just to avoid taking a free Covid-19 test does not make much sense.
> 
> Btw, the sign translates to "The national border follows the creek". I hope you did your patriotic duty, André, and adjusted that brook just a little bit ;-)


To add: I believe that most of the border is under surveillance, even if the controls are invisible. The idea of restrictions is not to build thousands of kilometers Berliner Mauer to prevent crossing the border. Penalties are much more cost-effective.

This is just a return to the pre-Schengen era. The Finnish-Norwegian border in the wilderness was mainly closed but open in certain areas. Even if there were no visible border controls, the poor one crossing the border illegally in the middle of nothing was likely to get a fine soon after the crime happened.


----------



## 54°26′S 3°24′E

Schengen made no significant difference between Sweden, Norway, and Denmark, at least. It was allowed to cross the border wherever also before that. A major motivation for Norway to join Schengen (and EU to let us in), was to keep things as they had been up here with the already existing Nordic passport union which had been in place since the early 50s. Actually, Schengen is somewhat stricter, as it requires citizens outside their own country to carry a national ID.

Only relatively recently, at least officially, continuous surveillance started on all the 90 or so drivable roads crossing border.








Snart kan tollerne se deg på alle grenseveier i hele Norge


Setter opp kameraer fra Østfold til Finnmark.




www.dagbladet.no




I doubt there is much intel on the thousands of private boats, paddlers, bikers, winter skiers, hikers, swimmers, and what not that passes between the countries each year, sans Covid-19, at other locations, and in the forested areas control would be even harder. It is of course possible, but the benefit / cost ratio would be very low for the intelligence agencies.


----------



## MattiG

54°26′S 3°24′E said:


> Schengen made no significant difference between Sweden, Norway, and Denmark, at least. It was allowed to cross the border wherever also before that. A major motivation for Norway to join Schengen (and EU to let us in), was to keep things as they had been up here with the already existing Nordic passport union which had been in place since the early 50s. Actually, Schengen is somewhat stricter, as it requires citizens outside their own country to carry a national ID.


That was not the case at the Finnish borders.

Norway, Sweden and Finland had mutual agreements across border crossings outside the roads. The N-S border was mostly open. The S-FIN border is mainly water, and there were only a few places where the crossing was allowed for non-locals outside the roads.

The N-FIN border is 736 kilometers long. Before the Schengen agreement, there were six road crossings (like now). In addition, the border was open to hikers in seven sections in the wilderness, with total length of 22 kilometers only. The rules were more strict before 1993: The shortest hiking path between the Kilpisjärvi tourist area and the highest point in Finland crosses the Norwegian soil for 1900 meters. Quite many people had got a fine for an illegal entry to Norway before 1993.

There is an electronic surveillance at the border. If you happen to cross the border with a dog, you can be quite sure to meet the authorities pretty soon to check the papers.


----------



## Adrian.02

A new international border crossing is due to open this year(most likely in late summer/autumn) between Serbia and Romania.
The curious thing is that this is not a regular crossing point😁,it will actually be used by cyclists and boats,if navigation resumes on the Bega/Begej river,connecting the romanian city of Timișoara with the serbian city of Zrenjanin-this will also be the shortest land route between the two. (And you guessed it,NO cars are allowed,because they can ruin the bycicle path!)


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## Ingenioren

From Halden Arbeiderblad, the barriers are now in place. Also they mentioned a person walking over the bridge got a warning by customs agents. This is turning out to be a problem in the community here as it's illegal to walk/cycle on the new bridge and the buses to Strömstad turn around on the Swedish side.


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## Corvinus

^^ The sign is fairly clear, but I (don't really) wonder if "Merkel guest" type migrants would abide by it in case. Those even managed to transit Russian territory by the thousands, whereas regular travellers are already scared from inadvertently leaping across that border line in the middle of nowhere.



Adrian.02 said:


> The curious thing is that this is not a regular crossing point😁,it will actually be used by cyclists and boats,if navigation resumes on the Bega/Begej river,connecting the romanian city of Timișoara with the serbian city of Zrenjanin-this will also be the shortest land route between the two. (And you guessed it,NO cars are allowed,because they can ruin the bycicle path!)


Will that crossing point be manned, with regular passport and customs inspection?


----------



## Adrian.02

Corvinus said:


> Will that crossing point be manned, with regular passport and customs inspection?


I am not quite sure,but it should have a regular passport control,as it is a frontier between an EU and a non-EU country,but I don't think that a border officer would inspect one's bicycle😅.


----------



## Alex_ZR

It would be interesting what kind of symbol would those passport stamps have. I only know there are car, train, airplane and boat, but not bicycle.


----------



## Barciur

From my experience, any pedestrian/local crossing in EU has a car symbol for stamps.

And yes, there are customs checks, even on foot. Just like at airports.


----------



## cinxxx

Corvinus said:


> Will that crossing point be manned, with regular passport and customs inspection?


Custom check yes, passport control, no. Both countries are part of the Schengen area.


----------



## Adrian.02

cinxxx said:


> Custom check yes, passport control, no. Both countries are part of the Schengen area.


Sorry to give you the news,but Romania and Serbia are not Schengen member states(Moreover,Serbia isn't even an Eu country!)😆


----------



## bogdymol

He was talking about Norway-Sweden border.


----------



## cinxxx

bogdymol said:


> He was talking about Norway-Sweden border.


Yeah haha 



Adrian.02 said:


> Sorry to give you the news,but Romania and Serbia are not Schengen member states(Moreover,Serbia isn't even an Eu country!)😆


Thanks captain obvious ))))


----------



## Adrian.02

bogdymol said:


> He was talking about Norway-Sweden border.


Well @Corvinus 's question in his inital post was reffering to that new bicycle border crossing that I mentioned,and I assumed that @cinxxx made a confusion regarding the Serbia-Romania border.
If I offended anyone,I owe you an apology!


----------



## cinxxx

Adrian.02 said:


> If I offended anyone,I owe you an apology!


No, that's cool.
I was reading about the Norway-Sweden border, then saw that comment and I thought it's from there, I missed the whole Serbia-Romania bike path 
I was joking of course, even if I would have been right.


----------



## Eulanthe

I'm trying to find out more, but most information relates to Schengen and not the Saarbrucken Treaty. But it seems that the controls were already very light by the end of the 1980's for traffic going between France/Germany/Benelux.

It seems that France/Germany removed a lot of the structures during the 2010's - for instance, in 2009, the crossing at Ottmarsheim still existed to a certain extent, but now only one administration building remains.

What surprises me is that a motorway crossing had such few lanes. Perhaps this also shows that after the 1984 Agreement, there was no need for bigger structures?

A little bit further south, they did something incredibly fascinating. In 2008, you can see how the old buildings were just used as offices and traffic drove through. Today, it's now a monument.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Eulanthe said:


> What surprises me is that a motorway crossing had such few lanes. Perhaps this also shows that after the 1984 Agreement, there was no need for bigger structures?


Probably the lack of serious controls + the low volume of traffic. Both Saarbrücken and Ottmarsheim border crossings carried about 17,000 vehicles per day in 2015, which was probably substantially lower in the 1980s and 1990s. The language barriers plays a huge role in reducing traffic between areas where the other language is not routinely spoken. You can also see this in Belgium and Switzerland.


----------



## Eulanthe

Yes, what I've found is that customs controls for trucks were still strict up until 1993, but it seems that there was a general acceptance that there was no need to strictly control normal cars/people. There's another good example from Wasserbillig on the L/DE border - the car crossing seems tiny, although the former truck parking area for customs seems to have been very big. Or even the example from the Belgian-French border near Aubange - three car lanes, but a huge truck parking area. 

But it is fascinating to compare the size of these motorway crossings to others in places like La Jonquera or Irun where there were a huge amount of car lanes, although I suppose Spain not joining the EEC until 1986 also influenced the size of those crossings.


----------



## SRC_100

I crossed the border b/n Germany and France during summer 1991 somewhere close to Lörrach and there was no any border control, just a police car was parked on french side.


----------



## MattiG

SRC_100 said:


> I crossed the border b/n Germany and France during summer 1991 somewhere close to Lörrach and there was no any border control, just a police car was parked on french side.


That was quite normal in the pre-Schengen era. The border checks were random only. If somebody wanted to see the travel documents, which was exceptional, showing the cover of the passport was enough most often.


----------



## Adrian.02

Border controls were similar at the Hungarian-Austrian border in 1990/1991.
My father(who is a former handball player) crossed the border at Hegyeshalom/Nickelsdorf with his team(Szeged handball team) in a bus/coach.
His fellow teammates gave him and another Romanian-born Hungarian some passport covers, in order to "transform" the romanian green passport into a blue hungarian passport(At that time, Hungarian citizens did not need a visa to go to Austria, while Romanians did.).
The austrian border officer stepped into the coach, took a look at the passports from a reasonable distance, he saw that all of them were Blue Hungarian passports, and so, the bus could cross freely into Austria!


----------



## Eulanthe

MattiG said:


> That was quite normal in the pre-Schengen era. The border checks were random only. If somebody wanted to see the travel documents, which was exceptional, showing the cover of the passport was enough most often.


From what I've found so far, it seems that things started changing in the early part of the 1980's between West Germany/France/Benelux. There's plenty of evidence showing how controls were still quite serious in the 1970's because of various currency issues, but then things started getting more relaxed. By the early 1990's, it looks to me as if the controls were already on their way out, even though Schengen hadn't been officially implemented and although there were still customs controls until 1993.

There's a curious article here - Austria Joins Schengen - Migration News | Migration Dialogue - where they talk about the system that was established in Schiphol Airport. As all passengers arrived at the same place, those travelling from Schengen countries were given special passes to bypass passport controls, but they were often throwing away the cards and just going through passport control anyway. It seems strange to think about these days, but airports such as Schiphol wouldn't have had any domestic arrival terminals that could be repurposed into Schengen arrival terminals.


----------



## rsemirCZ

Adrian.02 said:


> Border controls were similar at the Hungarian-Austrian border in 1990/1991.
> My father(who is a former handball player) crossed the border at Hegyeshalom/Nickelsdorf with his team(Szeged handball team) in a bus/coach.
> His fellow teammates gave him and another Romanian-born Hungarian some passport covers, in order to "transform" the romanian green passport into a blue hungarian passport(At that time, Hungarian citizens did not need a visa to go to Austria, while Romanians did.).
> The austrian border officer stepped into the coach, took a look at the passports from a reasonable distance, he saw that all of them were Blue Hungarian passports, and so, the bus could cross freely into Austria!



Reminds me this scene from Czech TV series about Czechoslovak refugees (26:00 - 31:00).

Czechoslovakia issued two types of passport, green and grey.

















Green passport was passport like any other, but the grey one was only for journeys to Yugoslavia. Purpose of this was to prevent people fleeing to West via Yugoslavia. So, the family in the scene were officially at vacation in Yugoslavia with their grey passport and tried to use green cover to travel to Austria.









At the top left, you can see text, that this passport is valid in the Yugoslavia only in Czech, French and Russian.


----------



## tfd543

^^ wow i didnt know that. Were there other countries issuing the same kind of passports?


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## Adrian.02

@rsemirCZ Very interesting!


----------



## bratislav

Very interesting. I didn t know about this. By the way CS citizens in 80. don t need visa for socialistic countries, execept for Yugoslavia.
There is somthing more interested. In czech language there is written that this passport is valid only on territory of Yugoslavia. I am interested how did this familly came to YU if passaport is valid only in YU. They have to travel through Hungary.
It is interested too, that on passaport is written SFRJ instead JSFR (Juhoslovanská socialistická federatívna republika).
And at last, I think that our policeman (tovariš miličnik) will not stop them to cross to the west (Austria).


----------



## Christophorus

Amazing! How was transit through Hungary regulated?


----------



## Verso

That grey passport could've been translated into Serbo-Croatian too.


----------



## Palance

Nice, border crossing Trate. Like it was filmed in Yugoslav days, but at 27:49 you clearly see RS (Republika Slovenija) at the border on the bridge.


----------



## alserrod

OK, another weird passport

View attachment 1477339





I have been glancing. It is a shared passport delivered in Malabo (current Equatorial Guinea) in 1949.

It was given to Gumersindo (born in Lugo, after another picture) and his wife Gloria (born in Castellon).
He was a civil servant after stamps on passport. This is, he could be physician, teacher, policeman or whatever.

Stamps are in Pesetas as currency but doesn't say "España" but "Guinea Española"


Passport said they were living in Bata, current main city in continental Guinea (the capital is in an island) but it was delivered in "Santa Isabel", called Malabo (the capital) after 1971.

Some extra details. They didn't had any children and... "countries they could travel to": Spain (only). 

This is, it seems that to move from Europe to Equatorial Guinea they requested a passport with the restriction to move only to that territory!!!


----------



## MattiG

Eulanthe said:


> From what I've found so far, it seems that things started changing in the early part of the 1980's between West Germany/France/Benelux. There's plenty of evidence showing how controls were still quite serious in the 1970's because of various currency issues, but then things started getting more relaxed. By the early 1990's, it looks to me as if the controls were already on their way out, even though Schengen hadn't been officially implemented and although there were still customs controls until 1993.


My earlierst car travel experiences are from 1980's. Driving a Finland-registered car was easy at the West European borders. Virtually nobody was interested in us. Sometimes, the frontier guards checked if the headcount in the car matched with the number of passport covers shown.

It was late 1980's when we had spend some time in Genève, while staying in a hotel in Ferney-Voltaire in France. After crossing the F/CH border a dozen of times without being stopped, one morning we decided to begin our return home. At the last border crossing close to the Genève Airport, a Swiss border guard stopped, and I had a short discussion:


Sir, what is your purpose to enter Switzerland?
Well, transit and sight-seeing for two days.
And your destination is?
Helsinki.
(A few seconds silence) Oh, welcome to Switzerland, Sir!

I have been orderer to open the trunk exactly once at the borders. It was in 1990 at the Karesuvanto border station at the Finnish/Swedish border in the far north, entering Finland. The customs officer wanted to see if I am smuggling butter. Importing butter was that time limited to 2.5 kilograms per passenger. No, I had no butter at all.


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## Verso

Palance said:


> Nice, border crossing Trate. Like it was filmed in Yugoslav days, but at 27:49 you clearly see RS (Rebublika Slovenija) at the border on the bridge.


You mean Re*p*ublika Slovenija.


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## Palance

Of course  (fixed it)


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## Eulanthe

Christophorus said:


> Amazing! How was transit through Hungary regulated


So, how it worked: Czechoslovak citizens didn't have separate passports for socialist and other countries, but rather they could use their identity cards for travel to the European socialist countries with the exception of Albania, with some additional bureaucracy in the 1980s such as an exit permit (not an exit visa). 

The grey Yugoslavia-only passport was used in conjunction with their ID cards for travel through to Yugoslavia. As this passport wasn't valid for entry into other countries, the Yugoslav border police would refuse exit, as they didn't want to antagonise socialist governments.


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## Corvinus

^^ That explains it pretty clearly 
(The other "solutions" would have been: either by direct flight CS - YU - but from former socialist countries we know fairly well that this was not affordable for the tourist masses, especially with families requiring a ticket for each member -, *or *some cruise vessel CS - YU with the grey passport holders not disembarking anywhere in between - Hungary or any other transit country)


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## Eulanthe

I'm in Croatia now, and movement from Poland has been mostly painless. In turn...

PL-CZ (Nowe Chałupki - Bohumin) - no controls, no infrastructure, nothing.
CZ-SK (Brodské-Lanžhot) - Slovak police controlling entry, but only a glance at ID cards. Not interested in Covid passports, even when we said we were going to Kuty. No controls by CZ in either direction.
SK-A (Bratislava-Berg) - entry controls in both directions. Austrian police visually checking Covid passports, not scanning them, not interested in identity documents.
A-HU (Pamhagen-Fertőd) - no controls on entry/exit by the Hungarians, only entry controls by the Austrians. 
HU-SLO (Redics-Dolga Vas) - totally open and free in both directions.
SLO-HR (Petisovici-Mursko Sredisce) - what a stupid joke. We sat for nearly 30 minutes in a very slow moving queue, as only one lane (out of four!) was available for cars. The queue suddenly started moving quickly, and my non-EU passport was barely checked by the Slovenian police on exit. The Croatian police asked "are you going to the seaside?", we said "no, we're going to Varazdin" and we were waved through without any document checks or Covid passport checks.

I'm going tomorrow night to explore the borders and find out what the situation is at other borders.


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## ChrisZwolle

From all I've heard so far, the Austrians seem to be putting the most effort in border controls. Even though it may just be random / risk-based inspections, they are performed a lot of the time. 

France, Belgium, Netherlands & Luxembourg are not performing any kind of checks at all, though French customs does do periodical random inspections at major toll booths. There were also stories about travelers to Italy and Poland, saying there are no border checks at all.


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## Eulanthe

Insane. I can't sleep, so I'm looking at the situation at Gruskovje-Macelj. There's already a 2.5km jam in front of the Gruskovje exit controls at 2:30am, and the jam on entry to Gruskovje starts before Macelj.


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## tfd543

Eulanthe said:


> Insane. I can't sleep, so I'm looking at the situation at Gruskovje-Macelj. There's already a 2.5km jam in front of the Gruskovje exit controls at 2:30am, and the jam on entry to Gruskovje starts before Macelj.


Then Its worth going all the Way to zavrc.. a big detour but Its worth it.


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## Verso

Up to 4 hours waiting times. But that's normal for the SLO-HR border (and Karavanke Tunnel) in summer.


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## cinxxx

How are the waiting times at Prezid crossing? Thinking to take that one tomorrow, but can't find any waiting times...


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## Verso

^^ I've never heard of any waiting times there, mainly because it takes ages to get from Unec (SLO A1) to Delnice (HR A6). Actually my parents were in Prezid yesterday, no waiting time. They went to a friend who lives right next to the border. Once they forgot their documents at home, but the police let them cross the border, because the guy lives like 100 metres away and they know him.


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## alserrod

Back to the most frequent border in this thread (Nicosia).

One mate was there last week. She told me she went... for an antigen test. Quite weird. It wasn't a fast test but a slow test according to the queue.
Results were sent by email and QR had to be printed somewhere. A KFC was the only corner to print something in Sunday.
Back to border and... rejected. Due to they had a passport coming from a red-zone for pandemia, antigen test wasn't enough. They needed a PCR and they didn't had more time.

She told me... maybe in the future, but they didn't crossed the border


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## cinxxx

Verso said:


> ^^ I've never heard of any waiting times there, mainly because it takes ages to get from Unec (SLO A1) to Delnice (HR A6). Actually my parents were in Prezid yesterday, no waiting time. They went to a friend who lives right next to the border. Once they forgot their documents at home, but the police let them cross the border, because the guy lives like 100 metres away and they know him.


Crossed there today. There was literally no car in front of us 😂


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## Verso

^ Met any bears? That friend in Prezid sees them occasionally.


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## cinxxx

Nope


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## tfd543

Big news. It was announced that a sort of mini Schengen in the balkan area Will come into effect from 1st of Jan 2023. Nmk, Al and Srb have signed and is an agreement b/t these countries only..

As i understand it, borders will still exist but you will be waved through if you are a national of one of the three countries.

I guess they Will make a dedicated lane for those travellers.


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## Corvinus

^^ Raises the immediate question, what about customs? One thing that personal IDs aren't systematically inspected, but e.g. at the Swiss land borders (all of them Schengen internal), nobody can rely on being simply waved through since duties still apply (except coming from FL).


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## tfd543

Corvinus said:


> ^^ Raises the immediate question, what about customs? One thing that personal IDs aren't systematically inspected, but e.g. at the Swiss land borders (all of them Schengen internal), nobody can rely on being simply waved through since duties still apply (except coming from FL).


We have to wait to see the official agreement text.. 
I quickly did a web search and it says free movement of people and goods, but i highly doubt the latter.


----------



## alserrod

Corvinus said:


> ^^ Raises the immediate question, what about customs? One thing that personal IDs aren't systematically inspected, but e.g. at the Swiss land borders (all of them Schengen internal), nobody can rely on being simply waved through since duties still apply (except coming from FL).



Even in Spain inner duties apply too. People going from Canary islands to Europe must declare any goods with different taxes. If you do not, it applies as smuggling.
It is not hard for police to check it just because 99,99999% of movements are by plane and it is enough to scan luggage



About Balcans, which countries would share border controls?


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## parcdesprinces

alserrod said:


> Even in Spain inner duties apply too. People going from Canary islands to Europe must declare any goods with different taxes. If you do not, it applies as smuggling.


Same here (in France) with our overseas territories and/or départements regarding a certain category of goods .. As I personally experienced several times.


Speaking of which :








©Douane.gouv.fr


----------



## Verso

cinxxx said:


> How are the waiting times at Prezid crossing?





Verso said:


> I've never heard of any waiting times there


Half an hour today.  There are insane waiting times today at pretty much all border crossings between Slovenia and Croatia, even the really tiny ones leading to 'nowhere'. People are waiting over 6 hours at the Vinica/Pribanjci crossing (the shortest road between Ljubljana and Split), several hours at other major crossings, and at least 30-60 minutes at local crossings on narrow roads. It's almost impossible to find a crossing without long waiting times.


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## tfd543

What about just using petrina? Its in-between the two mentioned..


----------



## Verso

^^ Also 6 hours yesterday. Petrina (Ljubljana-Delnice) is popular particularly among Slovenian tourists in summer, but it only has one lane, and I guess it can't cope with all this Covid checking.


----------



## tfd543

Ouch.. what about the region around osilnica and strojici ? There should be 3 in total but i cant see in maps whether they are passable..


----------



## atpanos

Adrian.02 said:


> I waited more than three hours yesterday at the border crossing between Greece and North Macedonia, at Evzoni/Bogorodica.
> The reason for this high waiting time might have been the fact that the travel conditions to North Macedonia changed since yesterday.
> You are now obliged to either present a vaccination certificate/negative test, or fill in a transit form(As you can imagine, the waiting time doubled, since they had to fill in the personal data of each and every traveller on that transit form...).


I arrived at evzoni border at 12.30 p.m.
No waiting time on Greek side. But the cars then stood immediately after the bar. You could see the whole mountain many many cars. I turned around and went to Dorjan, where I was the only car...


----------



## Adrian.02

atpanos said:


> I arrived at evzoni border at 12.30 p.m.
> No waiting time on Greek side. But the cars then stood immediately after the bar. You could see the whole mountain many many cars. I turned around and went to Dorjan, where I was the only car...


Right, but I would have needed to complete another PLF for Greece, since I would have been forced to enter Greece again in order to reach Dojran!


----------



## lampsakos21

Adrian.02 said:


> Right, but I would have needed to complete another PLF for Greece, since I would have been forced to enter Greece again in order to reach Dojran!


as far as i know, it is not required anymore the PLF when you exit the country through land borders anymore .


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## Adrian.02

lampsakos21 said:


> as far as i know, it is not required anymore the PLF when you exit the country through land borders anymore .


Well, it would have certainly been required,as we can see on @atpanos ' map, he returned into Greece at Evzoni, and made a detour to Dojran(Something which can't be done without a PLF, as I would have had to cross the border into Greece again, with no obvious reason).


----------



## lampsakos21

i have travelled recently and it was not required back then while i was exiting the country by car . It is also referred on the latest anti covid measures.You did well though to have it with you , just in case


----------



## Adrian.02

lampsakos21 said:


> i have travelled recently and it was not required back then while i was exiting the country by car . It is also referred on the latest anti covid measures.You did well though to have it with you , just in case


You do not understand.
I did not have any PLF for exiting Greece, as I did not need one.
As I said, going back to cross at Dojran wod have meant to return back in Greece, for which I had to have another PLF, to specify why I was entering the country again.


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## atpanos

To clarify, I didn't cross the boarder.
I stopped at the bar and turned around because I saw the sea of cars...


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## lampsakos21

i got your point .... it was too late to turn back :/ damn luck


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## geogregor

A few shots from border crossing between Valenca in northern Portugal and Tui in Spain.

Former Portuguese border post:


20210916_134815 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1030176 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

It is a double decker bridge, road is on the lower level, railway above:

20210916_134920 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1030180 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1030174 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1030178 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20210916_135512 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20210916_135829 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1030193 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20210916_140042 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

The border bridge itself:

P1030275 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1030278 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1030280 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1030281 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

There are pedestrian walkways on the both sides, here we are coming back to Portugal after afternoon in Spain:

P1030283 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Mosaic on the Portuguese border post. I think it is occupied by cultural centre now: 

P1030289 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

That's what happened to border post in Cieszyn in Poland. It was ocupied by art organizations, before being demolished not long ago. But this is much more solid and modern building, no point in demolishing it.


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## Eulanthe

What happened in Cieszyn was an absolute disgrace. The local community wanted to use it, there were solid plans for the use of it as a cultural centre, but the mayor was absolutely determined to get the use of the site. As a 'symbol' of Cieszyn, it was one of the most important ones, and for me, it's a typical problem in Poland associated with our lack of care/respect towards Communist-era buildings.

Anyway, I've found something fascinating and not widely known - footage of the border between Moldova and Transnistria at the Bender - Varnitsa crossing. What's not clear to me: are the Moldovan and Transnistrian checkpoints literally next to each other, or is this just a single Transnistrian control? As far as I can tell, the 'grey' container belongs to Moldova, while the Transnistrian one is the colourful one. Or is it the case that the Moldovan controls are next to the insurance office (it appears to say 'police' in Moldovan') and that the Moldovans don't have any infrastructure on the road?






There's another video here if anyone can figure this out -


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## geogregor

Eulanthe said:


> What happened in Cieszyn was an absolute disgrace. The local community wanted to use it, there were solid plans for the use of it as a cultural centre, but the mayor was absolutely determined to get the use of the site. As a 'symbol' of Cieszyn, it was one of the most important ones, and for me, it's a typical problem in Poland associated with our lack of care/respect towards Communist-era buildings.


I know the story. My brother and his friends occupied some of the space in the former border crossing building. I even attended a wild party or two there. It was quite funny to go for a piss under the border bridge.  Especially as I remember the heavily guarded crossing pre 1989.

In fact it was here I first time crossed an international border. It must have been 1990 or 1991. My parents applied for passport for me so I could go shopping to Czech side with our family friends who had a car. I still remember enormous queues on market days.


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## arp2012

Eulanthe said:


> the border between Moldova and Transnistria


This is not a border but a demarcation line established some 25 years ago. The official Moldovan Government implements migration and customs controls on this demarcation line, but in parallel is pushing on the Ukrainian Government to start implementation of the bilateral agreement on the joint migration and customs controls on the Ukrainian soil at the Transnistrian part of the internationally recognized UA-MD border. 
PS. From 1st October 2021 the Ukrainian Government prohibited the entry in Ukraine of all types of motor vehicles with the Transdnistrian number plates


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## Eulanthe

geogregor said:


> In fact it was here I first time crossed an international border. It must have been 1990 or 1991. My parents applied for passport for me so I could go shopping to Czech side with our family friends who had a car. I still remember enormous queues on market days.


Wow, maybe you remember something about the controls then? I know that after Poland joined the EU, you only had to show your passport/ID card at the windows of the building if you were travelling on foot. But, do you know how it looked back in the 1990's? I found one video that suggests that everyone had to go inside the building for customs controls - but do you know any more? 



arp2012 said:


> but in parallel is pushing on the Ukrainian Government to start implementation of the bilateral agreement on the joint migration and customs controls on the Ukrainian soil at the Transnistrian part of the internationally recognized UA-MD border.


Can you tell us a bit more about this agreement? I know that Moldova recognises the Ukrainian exit stamps as proof of entering Moldova. At the same time, wouldn't it be problematic for people in Transnistria if they have to deal with Moldovan customs controls? 

About the numberplates - is this not in line with the agreement between the Moldovan Government and the Transnistrian authorities to allow for the use of 'neutral' plates internationally?


----------



## arp2012

Eulanthe said:


> Can you tell us a bit more about this agreement? I know that Moldova recognises the Ukrainian exit stamps as proof of entering Moldova. At the same time, wouldn't it be problematic for people in Transnistria if they have to deal with Moldovan customs controls?


This is the agreement signed in 2017 (in force since May 2018) allowing for joint migration and customs controls at the UA-MD border (a similar agreement Ukraine has with Poland for example) - MD migration and customs officers work in the UA migration and customs facilities on UA soil performing MD exit clearances while the UA migration and customs officers work in the MD migration and facilities on MD soil performing UA exit clearances. This scheme works only at the parts of the UA-MD border controlled by the official Chisinau. The MD government pushes the UA ones to implement this scheme also at the Transnistrian part, but this scheme works only at the Kuchurgan border crossing. Reg. people of Transnistria - what is the problem? 


Eulanthe said:


> About the numberplates


Only Transnistrian vehicles with the "neutral" number plates are allowed to enter Ukraine, the ones with the "original" Transnistrian number plates are not anymore.


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## BL2

arp2012 said:


> PS. Fr*om 1st October 2021 the Ukrainian Government prohibited the entry in Ukraine of all types of motor vehicles with the Transdnistrian number plates*


great day for democracy


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## SRC_100

🔼 🔼
It has nothing to do with democracy...


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## tfd543

Guess he was ironic..


----------



## geogregor

Eulanthe said:


> Wow, maybe you remember something about the controls then? I know that after Poland joined the EU, you only had to show your passport/ID card at the windows of the building if you were travelling on foot. But, do you know how it looked back in the 1990's? I found one video that suggests that everyone had to go inside the building for customs controls - but do you know any more?


Well, I never crossed the border before 1990.

After that the national ID was sufficient for crossing but as I was under 18 my parents applied for passport for me. It was big deal for me. I still remember the day I first crossed the border. I went with my friend and his parents (as my family didn't have a car). Friend's dad dropped us at the beginning of an enormous queue for the crossing. It started so far back you actually couldn't see the border at all. It was sneaking around a few street corners before reaching the border bridge. Everyone had to pass through the border crossing building but there was such a mass of people that everyone just kept walking while holding the ID or passport opened on the photo pages next to face. 

I have seen some estimates that on the market days well over 100k people arrived to Cieszyn. Poles went shopping to the Czech side (mostly for alcohol and food) while Czechs came to Poland and shopped for some industrial goods (furniture, clothes, small appliances etc.).

It was crazy time. Alcohol was much cheaper in Czech Republic so people tried to bring as much as possible, often more 

Because of that the duty checks were much tighter on the way to Poland than on the way to the Czech Republic. People were regularly asked to leave stuff behind, I had friends who drunk the surplus on the spot

Later, in the mid 1990s when we were organizing parties with mates from the high school someone usually borrowed car from parents and we drove in 4 or 5 people to the nearest border crossing. There, after parking car on our side of the border, we just kept crossing the border back and forth, each carrying maximum allowed 10 beers, until we literary filled the car boot to the brim 

There were actually people making living that way, they were called "ants". The state was trying to curb it so they were givens stamp each time they crossed and they had to apply for new passports every few weeks as their passports were completely full of stamps 

Then the EU happen, then we joined Schengen and the crossing lost its function. As I said, for a while it was occupied by various groups, including my bro and his artsy friends. I actually had a drink in what used to be interrogation room  Eventually the border infrastructure was completely dismantled, despite the opposition of various groups who still wanted to use the space.

Eh, those were the days. Nowadays the border is much more mundane, basically invisible. Sometimes, when I visit home, I drive to the supermarket on the Czech side to buy some different beers. It takes me 20 min on the motorway. Everything is seamless, especially if paying by card.


----------



## bogdymol

geogregor said:


> I had friends who drunk the surplus on the spot
> 
> There were actually people making living that way, they were called "ants". The state was trying to curb it so they were givens stamp each time they crossed and they had to apply for new passports every few weeks as their passports were completely full of stamps


The old days of eastern Europe border crossings.

I also heard stories of Romanians going as far away as Zagreb in Croatia to sell some stuff and purchase other stuff to bring it back home. Clothes (mostly Turkish Jeans), electronics, various foods and drinks, alcohol, cigarettes, even petrol or spare parts for cars. These guys were moving everything back and forth across the border. They were calling themselves "businessmen".

I also have some memories from when I was a (very) small kid. My parents made me a passport and took me with them across the border in Hungary. They were doing supermarket shopping there at the time when there were no supermarkets in Romania. I even got a bike from there, I remember I was left in the supermarket parking area, just cruising with my bike around the parking lot while my parents were doing groceries.

Also, sometimes my mother was driving across the border in the first village, to sell gasoline. It was much cheaper in Romania at the time than in Hungary, so the Hungarians would buy it. Shen drove with the car's petrol tank full, and then a Hungarian guy would empty it on the other side of the border. She would come back to Romania with the tank so empty, that she had to fill it back right after crossing back the border.


----------



## trilobitas

Lithuania toughens Belarus border


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## Eulanthe

tfd543 said:


> @Eulanthe, Nice post but i cant see your first image..


Try this link?

https://www.elespañoldigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/ciere-verja-05.jpg

If it doesn't work, try searching on Google Images for ciere-verja-05 - it will show up as the first image. 

Not sure if this was posted before, but it's from 1977. It's an interesting picture, as the area in the background has been redeveloped into how it roughly looks today. This area looked completely different in 1969 when the border was closed, and to the best of my understanding, La Linea was comprehensively redeveloped in this area and in the centre after the border was closed. 

Some things worth noticing: Gibraltar never closed the gates to the border. They remained open the entire time, and the Gibraltar police never prevented access to this area. The area directly behind the Spanish gates was officially a military area (today, it belongs to the Spanish tax office), and it seems that there was some kind of military parade held daily here. These gates are also still in place today.










Not sure if this picture will work, but I'll try anyway. 

It's from 1969 when the border was first closed. At this time, the large redevelopment works haven't started, and you can see that the military area is much smaller than in the picture from 1977. I believe (but I'm not certain - other sources suggest that it was close to the current Plaza de la Constitución) that the building in the background was the Spanish Customs house, which was demolished not long after the border was closed. From what I understand, the redevelopment of La Linea and the construction of the Av. Principes de Asturias took into account the presence of the 'neutral zone', which is why the border strip still exists. 










This is a slightly different view to other pictures. It's from 1983, and the pedestrian border has been opened. The vehicle border wouldn't open until 1985, although the border infrastructure on the Spanish side had been constructed for vehicular traffic in the early 1980s. 










The caption to this picture claims 1984, but it's likely to be 1985. It shows how (on a practical level), minor border incursions are not treated seriously there. The Gibraltar policeman is standing just within Spain, and from what I've seen on several visits there, it's normal and common for the Spanish and Gibraltarian police to discuss border issues while standing in each other's territory. However, there are still some strange situations, such as this one - Man steals Guardia Civil car, attempts to enter Gib - it's not quite clear why the car wasn't immediately returned to the Spanish side of the border. There's also a video here, and it's quite funny - the thief is hauled out of the car and thrown across the border into the hands of the Spanish police.










From 1983 as well, you can see the old Spanish Customs building on the left. This was demolished as part of the 2015-2016 reconstruction of the border area on the Spanish side and replaced with a more customer-friendly building.










Again from 1985: a rather different scene to today, but the most interesting thing is that there's still barely any infrastructure on the Gibraltarian side to deal with border policing and customs issues. The only real difference to the pre-1982 opening of the border is that there's now a couple of containers for the police to sit in, but nothing more. I'm still trying to pinpoint when Gibraltar started to construct the modern border there along with the pedestrian border building - it must have been at some point in the late 1980s. 










This picture appears to be from the first day of the border closure on the 8th June 1969. The border defences are primitive compared to the later 1970s defences, and only some flimsy barriers are being used to prevent access into the border area. 










This picture appears to be similar to other pictures from 1982. The border has been developed, although it's still closed. 










Of course, going back to before 1969, the border was a very serious affair. I'm not sure when the border was opened up in terms of infrastructure, but this guard hut appears to have been demolished before it was closed.


----------



## Eulanthe

Some more historical images of the border in Gibraltar:

1960s. At this time, the border was still very primitive, although smuggling was a major concern for Spain even then.










Reverse view. This picture really shows how empty the frontier area was in the 1960s. As far as I can tell, the La Linea customs post is the white building in the far distance, while identity controls were carried out at the border itself. 










Another picture, similar to the one in my previous post:










And another wider view of the same area:










And another close view with the Gibraltarian police checking someone: 










Another view of the border from the Spanish side. The curious thing here: why isn't the Spanish flag flying?











And another picture of the controls, complete with a car with a GBZ sticker. These have recently made a comeback, although they aren't checking for them on the border


----------



## alserrod

The coloured picture is before 1978 for sure. In that year Spanish flag changed.

I bet the b/w too but I cannot point it after the picture


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## Eulanthe

Alserrod, could you try and find something for me please? I'm trying to locate where the old Aduana was in La Linea. I've found this article - La Aduana, más que un edificio (I) - which mentions that it was in the current Plaza de la Constitución - but I'm trying to find an exact location for it. The current Plaza de la Constitución in La Linea is really a huge place, and there's no trace of where the old building could have been.

My best guess is here.


----------



## Eulanthe

Mystery solved! Maybe...

This is a map made in 1969 of the border area.









From this article - La Guardia Civil en La Línea (XXXIV) - and also this one - La Guardia Civil en La Línea (XXXIII) - the customs building in La Linea was located at the bottom middle, at the end of the red line reaching from Gibraltar. The fence was located 690 metres from the British fence (at the top of the map), which places it roughly at this point. I can't make sense of when these fences were erected though - if I understand it, the bottom fence was the original one constructed by the Spanish, and then in the 1940s, they erected the top fence ('nueva') which was a more modern structure. The bottom fence was then demolished to incorporate the further development of La Linea, and it seems that the 'new' fence was also dismantled at some point after 1969. The fence that exists now is the British fence, which explains why it's in such a bad state of repair.

I can't seem to find out why the Spanish demolished their fence, although it probably served little practical purpose.

I have a picture of the fence on the Eastern side of La Linea, taken two weeks ago. The sign lying there is a British sign.










This map is also interesting, because it shows why the wasteland between the Spanish border crossing and the sea exists. You can see the (former? current? To the best of my knowledge, it's owned by the Agencia Tributaria) military and fiscal area here.

There's also mention in the articles of how the fence was 1400 metres in length, which would agree with placing the old Aduana at the point that I've marked on the map. However, the problem is that the historical pictures appear to show it much closer than 690 metres, but that might just be an illusion.

I also found an interesting close up of the border crossing in 2002. This shows perfectly how it used to look - the Spanish Policia Nacional would stand there on exit from Spain, and only non-EU people would be stopped. It's not clear to me what happened after you crossed to the Gibraltar side, as I can't find out when the current passport/customs control building was built for pedestrians. In general though, Spain was very relaxed with people exiting towards Gibraltar, and it's only been since 2015 that they started to control people more seriously. However, even today, EU citizens and non-EU citizens with residence permits in the EU are just waved through, as are Gibraltarians with their red ID cards.

Spain is supposed to introduce full entry and exit controls for everyone, and there is construction work going on at the border to facilitate this. It seems that they're building a system which will use some kind of biometric recognition, meaning you won't even have to show or scan your identity document once it's registered. How this will work with cars is another question though, as it seems inconceivable that they're going to scan every residence permit and passport/ID card...

And another historical picture, which I think must be from the 1990s. 

I remember this area well, and it was very rare for them to actually stop anyone on exit. It's not clear to me how the pedestrian border worked on entry to Spain - I know the passport control was outdoors and people were rarely controlled if they were from the EEC/EC/EU, but the customs control is a mystery. To the best of my knowledge, there was a very basic building that you had to pass through - buses would stop at the barrier in the foreground, people would get out and pass through the building, then get back on the coach.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

20 hours waiting time to exit Poland into Ukraine at Korczowa (end of A4). This has been ongoing for most of the day. Other border crossings into Ukraine have long waiting times as well.


----------



## Verso

Slovenia sends a piece of the Triglav glacier to Beijing by car.








Slovenia sent a glacier to Beijing, where the Olympics will be held - 247 News Bulletin


To raise awareness about global warming, the Slovenian Olympic Committee sent a glacier from the country's highest mountain, Triglav, to Beijing, which will host the Winter Olympic Games in February.It has been learned that the piece of glacier will be exhibited in Beijing during the Winter...




247newsbulletin.com




































That's a lot of border crossings...


----------



## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> Alserrod, could you try and find something for me please? I'm trying to locate where the old Aduana was in La Linea. I've found this article - La Aduana, más que un edificio (I) - which mentions that it was in the current Plaza de la Constitución - but I'm trying to find an exact location for it. The current Plaza de la Constitución in La Linea is really a huge place, and there's no trace of where the old building could have been.
> 
> My best guess is here.



Hi @Eulanthe 

Gibraltar-La Linea is not a border I know too much about it
I glanced pictures and just noticed one flag was Spanish one in Franco era, thus you can point the year of that picture.
The flag is the same but the emblem is absolutely different nowadays.


About that border, I invite you to read this news, posted by El Pais in January 1982
It was printed several months before border opening to pedestrians (late 1982) and... Spanish king refusing invitation to Charles and Diana wedding (summer 1981) just because their honeymoon would be a cruise from Gibraltar to Egypt!!!

I am afraid, I bet you will have to used google translator. No English version is available. Anyway, may you have some difficults with a sentence or it seems to have different options, just point it.

I bet it is a 1982 news where they summarize very weel all those years









Gibraltar, un caso de obstinación británica y de inconstancia española


El próximo inicio de negociaciones sobre Gibraltar, entre España y el Reino Unido, anunciadas el viernes en Londres por Calvo Sotelo y Margaret Thatch




elpais.com


----------



## Eulanthe

Ooo, thank you very much! That also contains a lot of useful information - for instance, the restrictions between 1954-1960 on Spanish citizens visiting Gibraltar. There's also some very useful information about how telephone communications were restored in 1977, and even more interestingly, it gives a definitive date for the building of the border infrastructure in La Linea - December 1981 until February 1982. 

Some news about the borders in Ceuta and Melilla - España prepara un nuevo modelo fronterizo para Ceuta y Melilla 

They've been shut for nearly 2 years. The most interesting thing is that there appears to be an agreement between Madrid and Rabat on the ending of the 'legalised smuggling' regime - as it stood before the border shut, there were big warehouses just within the Spanish autonomous cities, and people were allowed to transport as many goods as they could physically carry into Morocco. This resulted in huge amounts of people being employed simply to carry goods between those warehouses and Morocco.

You can see the special border crossing in Ceuta that was established for them. 

This crossing (Tarajal II) is unlikely to ever reopen, and if you look around the surrounding areas, you can see the warehouses that sold a tremendous amount of goods to the Moroccan "porters" who transported the goods into Morocco.

There is also some discussion about Ceuta and Melilla joining Schengen, but as far as I'm aware, it's pretty much a no-go. Interestingly, I think this is the only example of "one-way Schengen" - from Mainland Spain into the Autonomous Cities, you don't pass through border control, but you have to pass through border control on the return to the Mainland. From my experience in 2019, the border control between Morocco and Ceuta was tremendously light, but people were checked properly on departure from Ceuta to Algeciras.


----------



## italystf

Eulanthe said:


> Ooo, thank you very much! That also contains a lot of useful information - for instance, the restrictions between 1954-1960 on Spanish citizens visiting Gibraltar. There's also some very useful information about how telephone communications were restored in 1977, and even more interestingly, it gives a definitive date for the building of the border infrastructure in La Linea - December 1981 until February 1982.
> 
> Some news about the borders in Ceuta and Melilla - España prepara un nuevo modelo fronterizo para Ceuta y Melilla
> 
> They've been shut for nearly 2 years. The most interesting thing is that there appears to be an agreement between Madrid and Rabat on the ending of the 'legalised smuggling' regime - as it stood before the border shut, there were big warehouses just within the Spanish autonomous cities, and people were allowed to transport as many goods as they could physically carry into Morocco. This resulted in huge amounts of people being employed simply to carry goods between those warehouses and Morocco.
> 
> You can see the special border crossing in Ceuta that was established for them.
> 
> This crossing (Tarajal II) is unlikely to ever reopen, and if you look around the surrounding areas, you can see the warehouses that sold a tremendous amount of goods to the Moroccan "porters" who transported the goods into Morocco.
> 
> There is also some discussion about Ceuta and Melilla joining Schengen, but as far as I'm aware, it's pretty much a no-go. Interestingly, I think this is the only example of "one-way Schengen" - from Mainland Spain into the Autonomous Cities, you don't pass through border control, but you have to pass through border control on the return to the Mainland. From my experience in 2019, the border control between Morocco and Ceuta was tremendously light, but people were checked properly on departure from Ceuta to Algeciras.


The border has been shut down because of covid, migrants, or other reasons?


----------



## Genbank

italystf said:


> The border has been shut down because of covid, migrants, or other reasons?


Officially COVID, but Morocco wants to stop smuggling for good, so I don’t think it will reopen.


----------



## Eulanthe

italystf said:


> The border has been shut down because of covid, migrants, or other reasons?


Covid is the excuse, but in general, Morocco wants to put a stop to the situation where a substantial amount of businesses close to Ceuta/Melilla were being supplied from Spanish businesses. It's a complicated story, but the general idea is that Morocco doesn't want to establish a customs post on the borders of the Autonomous Cities, as this would imply full recognition of them under Spanish sovereignty. There's a comparison with what Spain does at La Linea, which also isn't a full border crossing for goods.

The whole situation was really quite silly, but Morocco (used to) quietly accept this trade as it helped the neighbouring provinces economically. In return, Spain kept Ceuta and Melilla out of Schengen and continued to allow visa-free access to the Cities. You could say that it was mutually beneficial, but now both Spain and Morocco are edging towards an agreement to 'regularise' the border. 

It's quite hard to explain without pictures, but at least pre-Covid, the border was very very relaxed. When I crossed from Morocco to Ceuta, there were no customs controls, and the only police check was two guys sitting outside in the sun. You had to queue up to get an entry stamp for Ceuta if you wanted one, but the whole border crossing was incredibly run down and nowhere near what you'd expect from an external EU border. There was an x-ray scanner for baggage, but it was clearly out of use. This, at least, is partially because Ceuta is a separate customs territory and not part of the EU Customs Union, so customs controls are carried out in Algeciras or Malaga. Ceuta also doesn't control people coming into the City, although goods are controlled and subject to their own version of VAT.

It's a strange, strange place.


----------



## Ingenioren

If you saw this sign will you assume it is illegal to cross here?









Sweden has been putting them up on all smaller border crossings, however you are still allowed to cross there if you have your covid test etc. in order.


----------



## Eulanthe

I found some pictures of the Tarajal I pedestrian crossing, which appears to have been rebuilt last year. This is (as far as I can tell) the entry to Spain.



























































































This shows (poorly) the pedestrian control building in the background. The identity controls are carried out in this open area with the turning gates, and then if you're permitted to proceed, you pass through that building (which is where you can also get a stamp if you need one). I _think_ this open area is where the new automated border crossing infrastructure will be located.





























And on exit from Spain, it looks like they will finally introduce real exit controls. When I was there, they were ignoring anyone with EU passports.








\\





































edit: These two lanes are for entry into Ceuta, while one will be for exit. I assume one lane will be for EU/EEA/CH citizens, and the other will be for all passports.


----------



## italystf

What?


----------



## italystf

Border between Italy and Yugoslavia at Fernetti/Sezana in the 1960s








Source: Facebook group "La Guerra Fredda in Friuli Venezia Giulia"


----------



## italystf

Border between Italy and Yugoslavia at Casa Rossa/Rozna Dolina in the 1960s
































Source: Facebook group "La Guerra Fredda in Friuli Venezia Giulia"


----------



## Eulanthe

Passport control in the port of Ceuta, for all ferries. Ceuta isn't part of Schengen, but border control is (normally) only in the direction of Spain. Customs controls are carried out in Algeciras, as the ferries sell duty-free alcohol and cigarettes. 

If you enter Ceuta from Spain, then there are no controls on passengers despite Ceuta being outside of the EU VAT area and outside Schengen. 

The reason for this is that Moroccan citizens living close to the border can visit Ceuta visa-free on day trips, while they also have simplified residence permits if they work in Ceuta. Spain is discussing removing these controls and integrating Ceuta into Schengen, but most observers suggest that it would be undesirable to do so.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I was recently looking at the road network of Tanzania, and noticed there is practically no integration with the Mozambican road network, despite the countries having good relations. Tanzania is relatively well-connected to its other neighbours.

It's known that very little thought was given to international integration during colonial times and Mozambique did not became independent until 1975. International integration was probably hampered by the Mozambican Civil War as well, even though Mozambique did see integration into the road networks of its other neighbors.

Tanzania and Mozambique share a nearly 800 kilometer land border, most of it is formed by a river. Only one bridge seemed to have existed for a longer period: south of Songea. It is on a 360 kilometer dirt road from Songea to Lichinga. Travel times are likely exceedingly long on this corridor. It may be inaccessible during the rainy season.

A new bridge was built near Negemano in 2010, called the 'Unity Bridge'. (The bridge near Songea is known as Unity Bridge 2 despite being older). Tanzania built a modern paved road (T42) to the new bridge. However the road has dead-ended right after it crosses the bridge, with only a trail or dirt road towards Mueda. Construction of a 165 kilometer paved road to Mueda was announced to have started in 2018: First paved road to link Mozambique and Tanzania However development may again be hampered by the insurgency in Cabo Delgado, which is a province in northern Mozambique.










Unity Bridge:


----------



## alserrod

Eulanthe said:


> Passport control in the port of Ceuta, for all ferries. Ceuta isn't part of Schengen, but border control is (normally) only in the direction of Spain. Customs controls are carried out in Algeciras, as the ferries sell duty-free alcohol and cigarettes.
> 
> If you enter Ceuta from Spain, then there are no controls on passengers despite Ceuta being outside of the EU VAT area and outside Schengen.
> 
> The reason for this is that Moroccan citizens living close to the border can visit Ceuta visa-free on day trips, while they also have simplified residence permits if they work in Ceuta. Spain is discussing removing these controls and integrating Ceuta into Schengen, but most observers suggest that it would be undesirable to do so.



It is a weird situation but, really, out of Schengen area just means people from Morocco can entry into the city but cannot reach to Europe (unless passport and visa, depending of situation).

Therefore... about passport control

through Ceuta, absolutely all citizens with valid documentation in Algeciras can go to Ceuta (may the would want to go to Morocco, there's passport control there)
through Algeciras, almost everyone go by ferry (it is possible to travel by helicopter to Malaga airport too) so they have booked and show ID card.
If EU citizens, no problem. If non-EU, they will have to show documentation.
Nevertheless, there aren't too many cases out of Spanish or Moroccan citizens to choose.

about custom control

through Ceuta, all goods are accepted. There's nothing that worths to import to Ceuta because taxes. You will have an office in Ceuta for business cases and other issues
through Algeciras, there are some goods where you have a limit (same as in other borders). Crossing withouth declaring is smuggling and punished.

A nicetie. A Ceuta citizen can move into mainland and live. May he bought a car he would have payed Ceuta taxes instead of mainland taxes.
May he declares a new address in mainland, he will have to pay for the car (not full taxes, just taxes according to the age of that car)


----------



## stickedy

What are these "Posto Fiscal" in Brazil, which are e.g. located on the bridges over Rio Parana: Posto Fiscal XV de Novembro · BR-267 - Porto XV de Novembro, Bataguassu - MS, 79782-000, Brazil








Posto Fiscal João André · Brasilândia, State of Mato Grosso do Sul, 79670-000, Brazil


★★★★☆ · Department of State Treasure




goo.gl





It translates to tax post. But which taxes? Are there different tax zones in Brazil for goods?


----------



## Deponti

stickedy said:


> What are these "Posto Fiscal" in Brazil, which are e.g. located on the bridges over Rio Parana: Posto Fiscal XV de Novembro · BR-267 - Porto XV de Novembro, Bataguassu - MS, 79782-000, Brazil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Posto Fiscal João André · Brasilândia, State of Mato Grosso do Sul, 79670-000, Brazil
> 
> 
> ★★★★☆ · Department of State Treasure
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goo.gl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It translates to tax post. But which taxes? Are there different tax zones in Brazil for goods?


Yes. There are different tax rates for good, and inter state taxation. Research ICMS tax if you want more info


----------



## kokomo

Taxation in Brazil is a very complicated matter. There is a common joke that there are so many intertwined taxes that no accountant in Brazil knows exactly what is needed to be paid due to confusion.

ICMS stands roughly for Tax for the transportation of Goods and Services between states.


----------



## kokomo

kokomo said:


> Check Rivera_Santana between Uruguay and Brazil also.
> You can cross freely from one side to the other without hassle.
> Theoretically, you should register yourself to the Immigration office (10 streets from the actual border) if you're crossing by car and are leaving the city radius. However in practice you can, if wanted to, drive freely to Rio de Janeiro without issue. Remember: it is south america where controls are very *lenient*


The international boundary between Uruguay and Brazil runs through the middle of this Boulevard, just where the line of trees are. The cars on the left are parked in Uruguay while the BR (Petrobras) gas station is on Brazilian soil. 








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


----------



## ChrisZwolle

France has a semi-permanent checkpoint on A2 when driving from Belgium into France. All traffic has to exit at the first exit, take a U-turn at a roundabout and then go back onto the motorway. The Gendarmerie or border patrol is looking at vehicles there.

It causes a permanent traffic jam.


















There is also often a checkpoint on A16 near the Belgium border, where all inbound traffic has to enter a rest area. However this one doesn't seem to be in use permanently.


----------



## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> France has a semi-permanent checkpoint on A2 when driving from Belgium into France. All traffic has to exit at the first exit, take a U-turn at a roundabout and then go back onto the motorway. The Gendarmerie or border patrol is looking at vehicles there.
> 
> It causes a permanent traffic jam.


What is the point of that in Schengen area where you can just drive along one the many local roads?


----------



## stickedy

I think one of the main point is that some officials obviously think that criminals (or whoever they are looking for) are using the main roads and avoid minor roads. It was the same when Germany made border checks at the border to Austria. The checkpoint were on the motorways, e.g. A8 and A3, but there were no controls for instance on B8 Mittenwald-Scharnitz.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's just political safety theater. 

Apparently the Belgian police sometimes closes the last exit in Belgium to funnel traffic into that trap.


----------



## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's just political safety theater.


Yes it is partially show for media and the public.

But also largely so the police and border force can prove their importance. It is like border official giving you grumpy look rather than smiling (rule in 90% cases). People like having power and control, whether it is reasonable or not, logically needed or not.


----------



## kokomo

geogregor said:


> But also largely so the police and border force can prove their importance. It is like border official giving you grumpy look rather than smiling (rule in 90% cases). People like having power and control, whether it is reasonable or not, logically needed or not.


I do recall that going on train from Ventimiglia to Menton, in the Cote d'Azur, French police started asking for papers due to "face characteristics" mostly. Perhaps it was a random check, but didn't look so...


----------



## italystf

kokomo said:


> I do recall that going on train from Ventimiglia to Menton, in the Cote d'Azur, French police started asking for papers due to "face characteristics" mostly. Perhaps it was a random check, but didn't look so...


Same thing the Swiss police on the Flixbus Milan-Lugano in 2018. White/Italians had barely their ID checked, Arab/Africans had been questioned about the purpose of their trip.


----------



## geogregor

italystf said:


> Same thing the Swiss police on the Flixbus Milan-Lugano in 2018. White/Italians had barely their ID checked, Arab/Africans had been questioned about the purpose of their trip.


I took a few trains in France recently. I was surprised by heavy police presence on board. I have seen quite a few patrols consisting of 3-4 gendarmes. 

The only people I saw them questioning and checking were black guys.


----------



## rom1hod

Ventimille/Menton is one of the main crossing points for illegal immigration. There is little chance that the illegal immigration concerns European types. It is therefore completely normal that in their missions the police target their control. However, I understand that it can be unpleasant.


----------



## stef_999

Ruling from the European Court of Justice



https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2022-04/cp220064en.pdf


----------



## Eulanthe

Something interesting that I've discovered about the Moldova-Transnistria administrative line crossings. I was looking around on OSM and Google Maps, and I've discovered that there are many, many areas where the line can be crossed freely. I couldn't work out why, but it seems that there's a local understanding that people holding local identity documents can cross the administrative line wherever they want. It's only non-locals that need to use certain checkpoints.

You can see this clearly in Dubasari, where the Moldovan and Transnistrian parts of the city can be crossed in numerous places. It looks like Transnistria only started setting up more checkpoints once the pandemic started and movement was restricted. 









Moldova: Pandemic Brinkmanship Brings Strife to ‘Security Zone’


A BIRN investigation reveals how Transnistrian emergency laws, imposed in the name of public health, ended up jeopardising the health of thousands of people, restricting their access to medicines and medical facilities.




balkaninsight.com


----------



## alserrod

rom1hod said:


> Ventimille/Menton is one of the main crossing points for illegal immigration. There is little chance that the illegal immigration concerns European types. It is therefore completely normal that in their missions the police target their control. However, I understand that it can be unpleasant.



It is a long time ago there aren't trains Milano-Barcelona but I read they had a control in France (not in the border but in a technical stop) just to control everybody was entitled to entry into France... despite that train hadn't a call in any French station.

It was a company shared by different other companies and moved a Paris-Barcelona daily and a Zurich/Milano - Barcelona three times per week.
Controls were only on Milano-Barcelona (and not conversely).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Ukraine has announced that they will implement a joint border control with Poland.

_We invited our Polish colleagues to exercise joint control over all checkpoints. Thanks to the "single window" approach, the duration of registration and waiting in line will be reduced by 1.5 times, which is of interest to both states. _






Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine - Ministry of Infrastructure: Ukraine and Poland will carry out joint control at all road checkpoints


Ukraine and Poland will carry out joint control at all road checkpoints




www.kmu.gov.ua


----------



## pai nosso

*Portugal » Spain

A4 »» N-122 -- May of 2022*

Google Maps


1-


2-


3-


4-


5-


6-


7-


----------



## pai nosso

Spain » Portugal


8-


9-


10-


11-


12-

Source: pai nosso


----------



## Corvinus

Republic of Ireland border (immigration control) at Rosslare harbour for passengers arriving from outside the Common Travel Area; recent snapshots



















Port exit once cleared


----------



## italystf

Corvinus said:


> The A3 then.
> It was very similar on the A8 (Salzburg - München) motorway crossing, both this summer and a year ago. At the very "control point", there is a pair of police officers - one carrying a machine gun - peeking into the vehicles. There is no formal requirement to stop (unless indicated), but a rubber threshold on the pavement more or less makes drivers to do so for a moment. Waiting time due to backup around 20 mins also.
> Interestingly, in the area of Salzburg the electronic motorway signs indicate that it is prohibited to take exits for circumventing the border backup and cross elsewhere. Leaving the motorway only allowed to reach Austrian destinations. I have no idea if and how this is enforced and how effective it is.


It's enforceable for trucks, as they must carry documents with the origin(s) and the destination(s) of the goods.


----------



## Eulanthe

Corvinus said:


> Interestingly, in the area of Salzburg the electronic motorway signs indicate that it is prohibited to take exits for circumventing the border backup and cross elsewhere. Leaving the motorway only allowed to reach Austrian destinations. I have no idea if and how this is enforced and how effective it is.


Completely unenforceable. There would have to be a formal suspension of Schengen (with a list of border crossings published) for that to be enforceable. Trucks are a different story, as they're usually banned from most small border roads.

I found a collection of historical pictures from the Danish border with Germany here: Se de historiske billeder: Da man skulle vise pas ved grænsen

Some pictures are very interesting, as for instance, it seems that the Kruså crossing was reduced in size after Denmark joined the EEC.


----------



## kokomo

Eulanthe said:


> Dbut it's also worth remembering that Croatia doesn't have a demarcated border with Bosnia or Serbia.


How's that specifically???


----------



## italystf

kokomo said:


> How's that specifically???


Croatia has territorial disputes with Serbia on Danube River, with BiH near Neum, and Slovenia near Piran Gulf.


----------



## stickedy

Croatia just has a major territorial dispute with Slovenia, with Serbia they are discussing the border line, but it's about uninhabited land.


----------



## italystf

Why would Croatia claim these unhabitated pockets of land on the left bank of the Danube? They would be impossible to access and control from the rest of HR.
Probably a border in the middle of the river would be more easily defendable for both countries.








Yellow: controlled by SRB, claimed by HR
Green: unclaimed, but controlled by HR
Red line: border according to HR
Danube River: border according to SRB and actual line of control


----------



## MattiG

italystf said:


> Why would Croatia claim these unhabitated pockets of land on the left bank of the Danube? They would be impossible to access and control from the rest of HR.
> Probably a border in the middle of the river would be more easily defendable for both countries.
> View attachment 3818348
> 
> Yellow: controlled by SRB, claimed by HR
> Green: unclaimed, but controlled by HR
> Red line: border according to HR
> Danube River: border according to SRB and actual line of control


Trying to find rational logic from the behavior of the Balkan countries?


----------



## MichiH

@italystf Do you really want to go into Balkans politicics? Stop it please!


----------



## italystf

I don't care about territorial claim of other countries and don't want to provoke anyone, but a border that is not aligned to the border river doesn't seem to be practical, as it creates de facto exclaves that are difficult to control.
Finland and Sweden realigne their border along Tornio River every some decades, to match with the river course. The Dutch-Belgian border has recently been rerouted somewhere near Maastricht for that reason.


----------



## italystf

BTW, the HR-SRB border dispute allowed the creation of the self-proclaimed micronation of Liberland 🤣








Liberland - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




It's one of the 3 terrae nullius (i.e. lands not claimed by any country) currently existing in the world. The other two are Marie Byrd Land in Antarctica (that no one can claim because of the 1959 Antarctic Treaty) and the Bir Tawil area in Sahara desert, due to the Egypt-Sudan border dispute.


----------



## stickedy

italystf said:


> Why would Croatia claim these unhabitated pockets of land on the left bank of the Danube? They would be impossible to access and control from the rest of HR.
> Probably a border in the middle of the river would be more easily defendable for both countries.


Yes, of course. That's the Serbian position: the border follows the middle of nowadays Danube river.

However, the border in the past also followed the middle of the Danube river, but the river flow was different. And that's the position of Croatia: The border is still where the border was set 100 years or longer ago.

In the past there were no border agreements which were paying attention to changing river flows. And in Yugoslavian times, nobody cared or even dared to care.


----------



## italystf

During Yugoslavia there were not even road signs telling where the borders between republics were, as signposting borders was considered like promoting nationalism.
There was (is?) even a restaurant build right across the SLO-HR border, as internal YU borders were practically ignored back then.
But that's the case of many administrative borders around the world, as administrative borders have usually no particular relevance on everyday life, except for burocratic things.


----------



## MattiG

italystf said:


> Finland and Sweden realigne their border along Tornio River every some decades, to match with the river course. The Dutch-Belgian border has recently been rerouted somewhere near Maastricht for that reason.


Balkanization does not apply to Nordic countries. 

What comes to FIN-SWE border (the rivers Tornio, Muonio and Könkämäeno), the realignment every 25 years is only one side of the coin. There are a number of so called Sovereignty Islands, which do not change the country totally even if the borderline changes. Thus, there are areas in Sweden where Finnish land ownership laws apply and vice versa. The other legislation comes from the "host" country. A map clip at Pello:










That big island and the east corner of the smaller island marked by arrows are located in Sweden, but the Finnish land ownership laws apply to them, and they belong to the Finnish land register, not to the Swedish one. So, if you commit a crime there, Sweden will punish you. But if you want to build a house there, you need a permission from Finland. If the river flow changes, the ownership status remains intact.

Other way round, Tanskinsaari is located on the Finnish side of the border line while the northern part is Swedish land.










Villages having no road access from the own country do not create any big dispute either. The northernmost inhabited village in Sweden has a road access via Finland. When there are kids in the village, they travel 90 kilometers to the school in the Swedish Karesuando on the Finnish roads.










The Finnish-Swedish border is said to be among the most peaceful in the world. I do not believe that there is anything comparable to what happens between Croatia and Serbia.


----------



## Gordito

Hi everyone. That's probably not the best place to ask such questions, but I'll still give it a try.

So, we crossed the border from Slovenia to Croatia on that famous Meje–Zlogonje uncontrolled border crossing without knowing that it's for locals only. As the result, got no SLO nor HR passport stamps. Apparently exiting same way is not the best idea, as it's a violation and least of all I want to get in trouble when traveling with kids.

Am I screwed or there shouldn't be issue on a normal exit point? Was anybody else in a similar situation?


----------



## eucitizen

Gordito said:


> Hi everyone. That's probably not the best place to ask such questions, but I'll still give it a try.
> 
> So, we crossed the border from Slovenia to Croatia on that famous Meje–Zlogonje uncontrolled border crossing without knowing that it's for locals only. As the result, got no SLO nor HR passport stamps. Apparently exiting same way is not the best idea, as it's a violation and least of all I want to get in trouble when traveling with kids.
> 
> Am I screwed or there shouldn't be issue on a normal exit point? Was anybody else in a similar situation?


Are you a citizen of an EU member?


----------



## Gordito

eucitizen said:


> Are you a citizen of an EU member?


Nope. However four of us have EU residence cards, one person doesn't. All of us currently fully legal in EU, except this stupid mistake with the border crossing to HR.


----------



## x-type

Gordito said:


> Nope. However four of us have EU residence cards, one person doesn't. All of us currently fully legal in EU, except this stupid mistake with the border crossing to HR.


You can do only one thing, and that is to go on major border crossing, and if they ask how you entered, say that they just waved you probably due to high traffic volumes. If you have entered with EU registered car, that will pass. If you have car registered out of EU, no way because they check such cars.


----------



## Gordito

The car has EU license plates. Was worrying about our 5th person w/o EU residence. So you think pretending that we weren't stopped due to high traffic may work? What about Schengen-zone exiting stamps, will they look for those?


----------



## x-type

Gordito said:


> The car has EU license plates. Was worrying about our 5th person w/o EU residence. So you think pretending that we weren't stopped due to high traffic may work? What about Schengen-zone exiting stamps, will they look for those?


I have seen this summer lots of cars being just waved through, in both directions, SLO and HR.
Don't try with Hungarian border, no pasarán.


----------



## Gordito

x-type said:


> Don't try with Hungarian border, no pasarán.


Oh, thanks. Why is that? Actually we wanted to go to HU. You think they won't believe we came from SLO w/o being stopped?

I know it's a bad idea probably, but maybe we just approach the same locals-only crossing and accept the risk of crossing it again. Worst case scenario if there is a police in place we could always pretend we're lost or smth like that.

And if SLO police stops us somewhere on their side w/o actually seeing us crossing the border, can always say "hey, we were looking for a normal crossing and Google took us here, but we saw no controls and decided to turn back"


----------



## MattiG

bogdymol said:


> Now imagine doing this without Schengen!


What would be the issue?

The crossing at the European borders was quite a piece of cake in the pre-Schengen era, too. Usually no ceremonies, just showing the passport. The borders behind the Iron Curtain were another case, but they shall not be counted as a baseline.


----------



## g.spinoza

In the last episode of Prime Video's "The Grand Tour" _A Scandi flick_, the three hosts drive from Lofoten Islands to Ivalo, Finland on an all-above-Arctic Circle drive.

At a certain point they pass the SWE-FIN border driving on a frozen river (sorry for this barbaric method of taking screenshots but the Prime Video app doesn't allow that):










Do you happen to know where is it?
And, can you answer the question that James May poses in the show? 


> How can one cross the border when it's, say, summer?


----------



## MattiG

g.spinoza said:


> In the last episode of Prime Video's "The Grand Tour" _A Scandi flick_, the three hosts drive from Lofoten Islands to Ivalo, Finland on an all-above-Arctic Circle drive.
> 
> At a certain point they pass the SWE-FIN border driving on a frozen river (sorry for this barbaric method of taking screenshots but the Prime Video app doesn't allow that):
> 
> View attachment 3852168
> 
> 
> Do you happen to know where is it?
> And, can you answer the question that James May poses in the show?


The length of the border is 500 kilometers and much of it is a winding river in the middle of the forest. Pretty challenging to locate the image. It might be a farmhouse on the Finnish side a few kilometers to the north of Kolari.

In the summertime, people cross the river by boat or using a bridge. There are brigdes in Tornio/Haparanda, Ylitornio/Övertorneå, Pello, Kolari, Muonio and Kaaresuvanto/Karesuando.


----------



## g.spinoza

MattiG said:


> The length of the border is 500 kilometers and much of it is a winding river in the middle of the forest. Pretty challenging to locate the image. It might be a farmhouse on the Finnish side a few kilometers to the north of Kolari.


All they say is they were driving from Kiruna to Ivalo, and right after the border there is a ski resort.


----------



## Vignole

Google Street View uploaded new imagery in Ceuta and Melilla. Spanish-Morocco border crossings and both fences can be seen. 









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




goo.gl





















Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




goo.gl





















Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




goo.gl


----------



## MattiG

g.spinoza said:


> All they say is they were driving from Kiruna to Ivalo, and right after the border there is a ski resort.


The picture is to the south, because there is not sun in the north that time a year. Thus, the farmhouse is in Sweden. 

I am quite sure that it is about the Pissiniemi(SE)-Kihlanki(FI) ice road. It is not a public one but made by the local people. Insurances are not valid. 









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




goo.gl














There is no ski resort next to the crossing point. The filming team stayed in the ski resort Levi, which is 100 kilometers away on the road, 60 km as the crow flies.


----------



## g.spinoza

MattiG said:


> The picture is to the south, because there is not sun in the north that time a year. Thus, the farmhouse is in Sweden.
> 
> I am quite sure that it is about the Pissiniemi(SE)-Kihlanki(FI) ice road. It is not a public one but made by the local people. Insurances are not valid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goo.gl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 3853026
> 
> 
> There is no ski resort next to the crossing point. The filming team stayed in the ski resort Levi, which is 100 kilometers away on the road, 60 km as the crow flies.


I think that's it, the buildings on the Swedish side look the same.
I didn't mean the ski resort was next to it, what I meant is that after the crossing they end up in the resort... I guess video editing make it seems closer.

Thanks a lot.


----------



## Stuu

g.spinoza said:


> I think that's it, the buildings on the Swedish side look the same.
> I didn't mean the ski resort was next to it, what I meant is that after the crossing they end up in the resort... I guess video editing make it seems closer.
> 
> Thanks a lot.


The video editing in the Grand Tour (and most TV programmes), means you can't have any idea that one place was after another. They almost always show things out of sequence


----------



## Fuzzy Llama

EDIT: Oops, wrong thread, but I'll use this opportunity to ask a question I wanted to ask:

Do you know how such ice road border crossings worked before Schengen times? I can imagine that some Scandinavian internal regulations could be in place, but was there any specific legislation regarding passages over ice?


----------



## MattiG

Fuzzy Llama said:


> EDIT: Oops, wrong thread, but I'll use this opportunity to ask a question I wanted to ask:
> 
> Do you know how such ice road border crossings worked before Schengen times? I can imagine that some Scandinavian internal regulations could be in place, but was there any specific legislation regarding passages over ice?


There has been a Schengen-like Nordic passport union since 1950s. It did not introduce a free border crossing, but Sweden, Finland and Norway had mutual agreements to allow people to cross the border in quite many places. People resident in the municipalities at the border had virtually unlimited rights to cross the border anywhere. Non-locals needed a permission to use the ice roads. It was granted easily at the customs office. As there were quite minimal border control on the ice roads, they were de facto open to everyone.


----------



## Gordito

So, we've crossed the HR>SLO border successfully w/o even being asked any questions. Nobody took care of any missing stamps, etc/


----------



## italystf

EU citizens now need passport to visit UK.
But what happens if you catch a ferry from France to Ireland with ID only and then sneak into Northern Ireland via an unguarded border crossing? From there you can also take a ferry to Great Britain.


----------



## cmishinger




----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> EU citizens now need passport to visit UK.
> But what happens if you catch a ferry from France to Ireland with ID only and then sneak into Northern Ireland via an unguarded border crossing? From there you can also take a ferry to Great Britain.


If I remember correctly, the Brexit protocols established customs controls between NI and GB. It may be more complicated than that, though.


----------



## sponge_bob

This Telegram Channel exists only to inform people of news on the one border crossing into Georgia, which is still open. It has 130,000 members as I write, and growing.









ВЕРХНИЙ ЛАРС 🇬🇪 ЧАТ


🗣Чат путешественников, желающих пересечь границу 🇷🇺России и Грузии🇬🇪: делимся опытом и информацией🔥 прохождения Верхнего Ларса во время СВО и обстановкой на Военно-грузинской дороге🏔 🏰 Вести с границы @verhniy_lars




t.me


----------



## CSerpent

italystf said:


> EU citizens now need passport to visit UK.
> But what happens if you catch a ferry from France to Ireland with ID only and then sneak into Northern Ireland via an unguarded border crossing? From there you can also take a ferry to Great Britain.


Ireland is outside Schengen so would be checked on entry there from the EU. If you try to cross between NI (semi-classified as within EU with the NI protocol) and GB you would definitely have your ID checked as that is now classified as an external EU border and would likely be processed at that point. As is the case for anyone British crossing from GBZ into E, if you need a stamp, you must be stamped otherwise on exit check you'd not be stamped in and classified as illegal entry or overstay.


----------



## garethni

There is no systematic checking of ID going from Northern Ireland to Great Britain or vice versa. Police or Home Office immigration enforcement might check certain people but that has always been the case. The protocol refers to goods and not to people.


----------



## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> If I remember correctly, the Brexit protocols established customs controls between NI and GB. It may be more complicated than that, though.


Is the position of NI regulated at all after brexit? It seems that nobody knows wether EU regulations are valid there, or GB, and hwo the movements there are regulated. It is unbelievable that there are controls within UK teritory. It is unbelievable that there are almost non existant signs at border between two at all. A farce.


----------



## bogdymol

Whenever I flew between Dublin and an airport in UK, I never got any type of ID check. Since Brexit I only flew once, from London to Dublin, and nobody checked anything. I don’t know how it works now the other way around.


----------



## sponge_bob

bogdymol said:


> Whenever I flew between Dublin and an airport in UK, I never got any type of ID check. Since Brexit I only flew once, from London to Dublin, and nobody checked anything. I don’t know how it works now the other way around.


Everyone in Dublin is funneled into a single arrivals no matter where they come from. For certain routes, a limited number of them they are checked at the door of the plane.


----------



## CSerpent

Last time I was speaking with someone who travelled on the Larne-Cairnryan route, he said he got his ID checked and it had to be an official doc. I suppose an IRL driving licence would suffice if an non-Irish EU resident was carrying one. You would think that UKBF would then be interested in who was travelling.

Maybe there's a protocol with Irish Immigration?


----------



## alserrod

I know a person who was born in my homecity and a long time ago he moved to GB.
Last winter he came for six months with her wife (who was born in the same city). They were to have a baby in winter and wanted to be in their homecity.
Her wife and him have double nationality since they have been working in GB for more than one decade.

After baby was born, they made duties and some months later they had to move again to GB. They asked how to move "legally" and... it seemed to be a nightmare to entry with a British baby born away.
I just know they preferred to move to Dublin by plane, train to Belfast and plane to London!!!!!!!


----------



## Alex_ZR

Last weekend, bicycle/boat border crossing Srpski Itebej-Otelec between Serbia and Romania was open for the first time. Crossing infrastructure haven't been built yet, the plan is to open is permanently in 2023, but the bicycle path between Zrenjanin in Serbia and Timisoara in Romania, along the Begej/Bega river was built in recent years.

Romanian border control:




















Serbian side:



















Source: various Facebook pages


----------



## Adrian.02

^
What is important to mention is that the part of the bycicle path located in "no man's land" is simply a path of grass, this being another issue wchich needs to be solved before the official, permanent opening of the Crossing Point.

I quite appreciate the initiative, and really hope that the day when this border opens for good is just around the corner.


----------



## Qtya

Új gazdasági korridor épül ki a Duna Aszfalt szakmai befektetésével Belső-Afrikában – videó


Nagyszabású, PPP-konstrukció keretében elkészülő fejlesztés megvalósulásán dolgoznak magyar szakemberek Afrikában. Zambiában és a Kongói Demokratikus Köztársaságban a Duna Aszfalt Zrt. és a cég többségi tulajdonában álló GED Africa Ltd. vezetésével épül majd meg egy közel 200 kilométeres út és...




magyarepitok.hu


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A curious situation at the Romania-Ukraine border crossing of Vicovu de Sus / Krasnoilsk.

Location: Google Maps

1. Oldest satellite image from 2006. It shows a seemingly functional border crossing (but not a single vehicle at the border queue).









2. A satellite image from 2011 shows the Romanian side being expanded.









3. In 2016, the Ukrainian border post was being expanded.









4. However the most recent image from 2021 shows the border crossing abandoned, it seems that the road even disappeared?


----------



## Theijs

ChrisZwolle said:


> A curious situation at the Romania-Ukraine border crossing of Vicovu de Sus / Krasnoilsk.
> 
> Location: Google Maps
> 
> 4. However the most recent image from 2021 shows the border crossing abandoned, it seems that the road even disappeared?


It looks like the expansion at the Ukrainian side at Krasnoilsk halted somewhere around 2016.

However, the border should be functional again: https://www.kmu.gov.ua/en/news/urya...-na-ukrayinsko-rumunskomu-derzhavnomu-kordoni


----------



## Adrian.02

^
In a recent news article from a regional romanian newspaper, they said that the ukrainian side could not meet the delayed deadline for the reopening, namely, the 15th of October.


https://www.newsbucovina.ro/actualitate/352563/autoritatile-ucrainene-nu-au-reusit-sa-respecte-nici-al-doilea-termen-stabilit-pentru-deschiderea-punctului-de-trecere-a-frontierei-vicovu-de-sus-crasna


----------



## x-type

Why was it closed?


----------



## Coccodrillo

The Tenda pass road has been opened this summer on the French side, I don't know if it is usually opened when the tunnel is open.

It is limited to vehicles of max 3,5 tonnes, 6 metres, and belonging to residents in the nearby Italian and French municipalities, people who work there, and people sleeping in their hotels. A transit pass must be requested before crossing. It can be crossed only during the day from 6 to 20 on convoys, with a departure every two hours. The Tenda tunnel is one of the oldest long road tunnels, that's why the pass road has never been really adapted to motorized traffic, and with its 50 hairpins it would be difficult to do so. It isn't paved on the higher part. And there are more hairpins on the lower section.

I don't want to make predictions about when the tunnel will reopen and when the second tube will open.









Ha riaperto la strada dei 50 tornanti sul Colle di Tenda - Il Corriere di Alba Bra Langhe e Roero


Ha riaperto al traffico oggi pomeriggio, venerdì 3 giugno, dopo la pausa invernale, la strada dei 50 tornanti fra Italia e Francia. L’utilizzo di questo collegamento – alternativo a quello che si snoda lungo il valico del Tenda, devastato dall’alluvione del 2020 – è però consentito soltanto a...




ilcorriere.net













Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.ch


----------



## geogregor

alserrod said:


> I know a person who was born in my homecity and a long time ago he moved to GB.
> Last winter he came for six months with her wife (who was born in the same city). They were to have a baby in winter and wanted to be in their homecity.
> Her wife and him have double nationality since they have been working in GB for more than one decade.
> 
> After baby was born, they made duties and some months later they had to move again to GB. They asked how to move "legally" and... it seemed to be a nightmare to entry with a British baby born away.
> I just know they preferred to move to Dublin by plane, train to Belfast and plane to London!!!!!!!


They probably needed British passport for the baby. Travelling with different passports between parents and children can be problematic, some border officials can be suspicious (they are sensitive to child trafficking nowadays).

The problem here is that sorting British paperwork can be a nightmare. Passport office is seriously understaffed and there were massive delays this year with issuing passports. I'm not sure about consular services but I wouldn't be surprised if they faced the same staffing issues. Especially in Spain it can be problem as there are many Brits living there.

My British passport expires in May and I will soon have to apply for new one. I don't want to risk leaving it too late. Of course I can still use my Polish passport if things go badly.


----------



## Proof Sheet

Coccodrillo said:


> The Tenda pass road has been opened this summer on the French side, I don't know if it is usually opened when the tunnel is open.
> 
> It is limited to vehicles of max 3,5 tonnes, 6 metres, and belonging to residents in the nearby Italian and French municipalities, people who work there, and people sleeping in their hotels. A transit pass must be requested before crossing. It can be crossed only during the day from 6 to 20 on convoys, with a departure every two hours. The Tenda tunnel is one of the oldest long road tunnels, that's why the pass road has never been really adapted to motorized traffic, and with its 50 hairpins it would be difficult to do so. It isn't paved on the higher part. And there are more hairpins on the lower section.
> 
> I don't want to make predictions about when the tunnel will reopen and when the second tube will open.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ha riaperto la strada dei 50 tornanti sul Colle di Tenda - Il Corriere di Alba Bra Langhe e Roero
> 
> 
> Ha riaperto al traffico oggi pomeriggio, venerdì 3 giugno, dopo la pausa invernale, la strada dei 50 tornanti fra Italia e Francia. L’utilizzo di questo collegamento – alternativo a quello che si snoda lungo il valico del Tenda, devastato dall’alluvione del 2020 – è però consentito soltanto a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ilcorriere.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.ch


I could have sworn in the summer of 1995 my wife and I went over this pass by road from Italy to France. It was a lot of hairpins but no convoys or timed escorts. Am I imagining things. I know we travelled from Limone Piemonte to Tende and then on to Saorge and didn't go in the tunnel.


----------



## Coccodrillo

I have never travelled over the Tenda pass, nor I remember how it was before, but I suppose that the limitations have been put in place only recently. In 2020 the road near the tunnel, and many sections of the road on the French side of the tunnel completely disappeared because of a storm. Traffic was reestablished months later, but in many sections (including the pass) on a single lane with alternate traffic, partly using local roads. The tunnel has been opened in 1882, basically nearly a century before most other long road tunnels, so the old Tenda road has never been improved and widened. The tunnel itself is built with XIX century standard, that is, it is so narrow that two cars have to travel at walking speed to cross each other and bigger vehicles like trucks and buses cannot cross at all. Before its closure (it might reopen next year) it was operated with alternate traffic, regulated with traffic lights. A second tube should open in 2025, so that traffic can run on one lane in each tube.

The Tenda tunnel is also the only pass I know where the road tunnel has been built before the rail tunnel (1882 road, 1900 rail), likely because of the big advantage with a limited effort (a road with a 600 metres lower summit with a tunnel just a little bit longer than 3 km). There are some roads where some short road tunnels were built before the parallel railway, but these tunnels are not under the pass itself.

Some photos sere: [F][N204][E074] Tunnel de Tende - Wegenforum


----------



## cinxxx

I drove to the tunnel this summer during my trip to France and Italy.


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## ChrisZwolle

'30 rappel' on an Italian sign? Or is rappel also an Italian word?


----------



## cinxxx

ChrisZwolle said:


> '30 rappel' on an Italian sign? Or is rappel also an Italian word?


This is in France, right before the tunnel.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> '30 rappel' on an Italian sign? Or is rappel also an Italian word?


In Italian it would literally be "ricorda". I find this is a stupid sign, since you must know French in order to understand it.
We used to have a "continua" integration sign, but this is much better:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'm not sure what is going on, but Czechia appears to be performing border checks at every road from Slovakia.


----------



## MichiH

^^








Czech government extends Slovak border checks by 20 days


The Czech government extended its checks on the border with European Union neighbour Slovakia by another 20 days, seeking to control a spike in the flow of illegal migrants, Interior Minister Vit Rakusan said on Wednesday.




www.reuters.com












Czech police nab smugglers in new border checks as migrant flows spike


Czech police chasing a vanload of migrants fired warning shots on Thursday as they began checks on the border with Slovakia to combat a sharp rise in people, mostly Syrians, heading illegally to western Europe.




www.reuters.com


----------



## x-type

g.spinoza said:


> In Italian it would literally be "ricorda". I find this is a stupid sign, since you must know French in order to understand it.
> We used to have a "continua" integration sign, but this is much better:


Doesn't this Italian sign mean that the sign is valid in both directions?


----------



## g.spinoza

x-type said:


> Doesn't this Italian sign mean that the sign is valid in both directions?


No, it means that it is valid both before and after the sign.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Adrian.02 said:


> ^
> In a recent news article from a regional romanian newspaper, they said that the ukrainian side could not meet the delayed deadline for the reopening, namely, the 15th of October.
> 
> 
> https://www.newsbucovina.ro/actualitate/352563/autoritatile-ucrainene-nu-au-reusit-sa-respecte-nici-al-doilea-termen-stabilit-pentru-deschiderea-punctului-de-trecere-a-frontierei-vicovu-de-sus-crasna


According to Ukravtodor the border crossing is close to reopening, with trucks over 7.5 tonnes already being processed this month, so it would be within a few days. It's seemingly a freight-only crossing?









Укравтодор


🇺🇦🇷🇴 «Відкритий кордон»: завершується облаштування інфраструктури пункту «Красноїльськ – Вікову де Сус» на кордоні з Румунією Роботи з реконструкції пункту пропуску «Красноїльськ – Вікову де Сус» на...




www.facebook.com


----------



## Adrian.02

^
I've now also found a post in romanian made by a local romanian-language newspaper from Chernivtsi/Cernăuți, and they claim that the Border crossing is in fact almost finished.









Libertatea Cuvântului - Cernăuți


Punctul de control „Crasnoilsc – Vicovu de Sus” este pregătit pentru funcţionare în proporţie de 95 la sută Lucrările de reconstrucție a Punctului de control „Crasnoilsc – Vicovu de Sus” de la...




www.facebook.com


----------



## Eulanthe

I found an interesting clip showing the Irish customs post on the Belfast-Dublin road in 1973: 






For those watching on mobile, it's from 6:40 or so.

It's interesting to point out that this customs post didn't really change until it closed in 1993. There were some small changes (an administration building was built on the right side along with a large car park), but on the whole, this is exactly what stayed in place for the next 20 years. The Irish authorities had planned to build a new motorway to the west of the site (the modern N1/A1), so they didn't want to spend money on a new customs checkpoint before the road opened.

Same view today: Google Maps


----------



## CSerpent

I'm just looking on Google Maps at the border point, and although this is now the B113 (NI)/R132 (ROI), there's still an RoI route sign commencement marker for the N1 here.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

ChrisZwolle said:


> According to Ukravtodor the border crossing is close to reopening, with trucks over 7.5 tonnes already being processed this month, so it would be within a few days.


The border crossing Krasnoilsk - Vicovu de Sus between Ukraine and Romania opened today:









Міністерство інфраструктури України


🇹🇩🇺🇦 Міжнародний автомобільний пункт пропуску «Красноїльськ – Вікову де Сус» на кордоні з Румунією сьогодні почав роботу. Відкриття пункту пропуску відбулось за участі Денис Шмигаль та Ніколає Чуке,...




www.facebook.com


----------



## Adrian.02

ChrisZwolle said:


> The border crossing Krasnoilsk - Vicovu de Sus between Ukraine and Romania opened today


And just like that, the border crossing already(!) shows up on the Romanian Border Police's "Online Border Traffic" page, and other border crossing points, such as the Moldova Noua, Foeni, Valcani or Lunga(All on the border with Serbia), which have been opened since 2019 and 2014, for the former three crossings are yet to show up on this map!(Even though I already contacted the Romanian Border Police on this subject, they still haven't updated the map!-On the other hand, it is important to mention that these border crossings are not open 24/7, which may be the case why they're not on this map, but there already exists an example, namely, the Sacuieni border crossing(Ro-Hu), which also isn't open 24/7!).


----------



## tfd543

One step closer for croatia’s Schengen admission. Today the EU parliament endorsed the admission by a large majority. Now Its only in the hands of the council that needs to be unanimous. Decision to be taken in december already… exciting !!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Let's hope the Dutch government isn't going to veto it.


----------



## Theijs

ChrisZwolle said:


> Let's hope the Dutch government isn't going to veto it.


In that unfortunate case it will be the Dutch Parliament vetoing Schengen enlargement, not the Dutch government.
The Dutch PM needs a mandate from the Parliament for this kind of decisions.


----------



## tfd543

Theijs said:


> In that unfortunate case it will be the Dutch Parliament vetoing Schengen enlargement, not the Dutch government.
> The Dutch PM needs a mandate from the Parliament for this kind of decisions.


Really? Also for EU affairs? I didnt know that


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The European Commission has officially proposed that Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia should enter Schengen.









Press corner


Highlights, press releases and speeches




ec.europa.eu


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## cymru1

ChrisZwolle said:


> The European Commission has officially proposed that Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia should enter Schengen.
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> Press corner
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> Highlights, press releases and speeches
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deja-vu
nothing will change


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## Theijs

cymru1 said:


> deja-vu
> nothing will change (of Schengen Enlargement.


This time (2022) there is a striking difference. The Dutch Parliament has asked the government to verify the report of the European Commission, and actually such a verification mission is happening for the first time after 11 years of obstruction from a distance.
Let’s see what will be the outcome of this ‘boots on the ground’ mission.

What worries me is the next alinea from the article:

“G4Media exclusively showed how the Port of Constanta and the non-EU borders with Ukraine and the Republic of Moldova are missing from the targets checked by European experts in the Schengen mission. G4Media also revealed what is missing from the European Commission’s glowing report on Romania’s readiness to join Schengen.”

So if the European Commission is indeed not giving the full picture in its 2022 report, a decision about Schengen enlargement might be postponed by the Council of Ministers until the European Commission has clarified the missing targets.

More info: EXCLUSIVE The Netherlands has sent a Schengen evaluation mission to Romania. What the Dutch experts are checking


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## cymru1

Now we have obstructions from Sweden as well. We rushed our 'yes' for Sweden in NATO.


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## ChrisZwolle

I've heard an interesting observation on the radio.

The Netherlands voted against Croatian and RO/BG accession to Schengen in the past. Yet it was one of the very few countries in the EU that didn't impose some kind of border controls during the covid pandemic.

So political rhetoric and vetoing is rather different from the real world.


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## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've heard an interesting observation on the radio.
> 
> The Netherlands voted against Croatian and RO/BG accession to Schengen in the past. Yet it was one of the very few countries in the EU that didn't impose some kind of border controls during the covid pandemic.
> 
> So political rhetoric and vetoing is rather different from the real world.


Fearing immigration more than pandemic. Typical Trump-like right wing mentality.


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## alserrod

It seems officers in Senegal - Gambia border aren't busy at all!









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


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## devo

alserrod said:


> It seems officers in Senegal - Gambia border aren't busy at all!
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> Google Maps
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> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
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> www.google.com


Maybe they've just finished with some Polish (?) ice cream from this truck down the road.









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




goo.gl


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## tfd543

alserrod said:


> It seems officers in Senegal - Gambia border aren't busy at all!
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> Google Maps
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> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
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> www.google.com


Maybe too hot.


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## Theijs

ChrisZwolle said:


> The European Commission has officially proposed that Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia should enter Schengen.
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> Press corner
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> Highlights, press releases and speeches
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> ec.europa.eu


It seems that politicians from The Netherlands, Sweden and as well Austria have their objections against Schengen enlargement.

Source: Austrian Minister of the Interior opposes the entry of Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia into Schengen - The Romania Journal


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## tfd543

Yea i read it.. nothin New on that front. Lets hope they change their mind


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## devo

Let's hope so. If you want to ruin your day (and the possible potential for them changing their mind) follow the money trail leading up to those politicians. Or those influencing these politicians.


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## AnelZ

And that is why I'm surprised that it is Austria who is among the biggest proponents of giving Bosnia and Herzegovina candidate status for EU. As far as I remember, they are more often then not aligned with the Netherlands and Denmark regarding many questions.


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## ChrisZwolle

Austria is also performing border controls for 7 years now, despite the Schengen Treaty only allowing 6 months in exceptional circumstances. No EU agency enforced this, it wasn't until a citizen got fined for not showing his passport and went to court and eventually the EU Court of Justice until a verdict slammed the Austrian government for illegal border controls.


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## radamfi

Is Sweden still performing routine checks from Denmark?


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## Eulanthe

AnelZ said:


> And that is why I'm surprised that it is Austria who is among the biggest proponents of giving Bosnia and Herzegovina candidate status for EU. As far as I remember, they are more often then not aligned with the Netherlands and Denmark regarding many questions.


That's political, too. There are a lot of Bosnians who obtained Austrian citizenship (I know several, who later returned to BiH), and so they represent a powerful voting bloc in Austrian politics. 



Theijs said:


> It seems that politicians from The Netherlands, Sweden and as well Austria have their objections against Schengen enlargement.


This will be very interesting. I've said for years that Croatia cannot join without Romania and Bulgaria, but keeping Croatia out will be very, very difficult now. 

I've found an interesting video, showing the Croatian border with.. I'm not quite sure who was in control of the territory on the other side here. It's at GP Metković , and it shows a very different scene to what exists now. 






The border crossing is shown at the end of the video. I'm not sure where this was located exactly, although I think the large car park was here, next to the current GP Doljani in BiH (and the site of the old GP Metković).


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## volodaaaa

Guys, sorry for interrupting. I am just a little bit curious about the current Russian borders. Are the internationally recognized Russo-Ukrainian borders (I mean those that are not occupied) open or not? What about the borders between Russian and previously Ukraine-controlled areas, e.g. between the Luhansk oblast (excluding the former LPR) and Russia? Did the Russians dare to demolish the border crossings?


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## ChrisZwolle

The border posts between the Donbas and Russia remained operational after 2014, you can see them on Google Earth imagery. Of course, you can guess about how serious those border checks were.

I assume all border crossings between Ukraine and Russia are currently barricaded. Russia also routinely shells Ukrainian border posts and settlements in the northeastern oblasts, so things are not anywhere near to normal in that area.

Ukraine is also constructing a border wall at the border with Belarus (much of which is inaccessible swamp)









There are also reports that Ukraine has blown up most if not all bridges on roads to the Belarusian border. So international traffic won't be going there anytime soon.


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## italystf

Also the border between Ukraine and Transnistria is reportedly closed, as Transnistria is a Russian puppet state.

I wonder if Russians still perform border checks on the border between Russia and occupied Donbas. It would be contraddictory to claim sovereignity over Donbas and at the same time maintain border controls.


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## pleja

Eulanthe said:


> This will be very interesting. I've said for years that Croatia cannot join without Romania and Bulgaria, but keeping Croatia out will be very, very difficult now.


There are no valid arguments to keep us out of Schengen. We are even part of Global Entry programme with USA which only Germany, UK and Switzerland are a part of and someone is going to say we are not Schengen ready? There will be a separate vote. Lets see who will embarrass themselves and queue for deep inspection next summer.



> I've found an interesting video, showing the Croatian border with.. I'm not quite sure who was in control of the territory on the other side here. It's at GP Metković , and it shows a very different scene to what exists now.


At that time, on the other side were Croatian defence council forces or however it is translated i.e. Croats from BiH.



> The border crossing is shown at the end of the video. I'm not sure where this was located exactly, although I think the large car park was here, next to the current GP Doljani in BiH (and the site of the old GP Metković).


Large car park was, most likely by the looks of hills, at Ploče port. This was one of the main staging points for peacekeeping forces as route from this port had best access to BiH through that border crossing shown in video. Now, there is a highway link to northwest so border crossing in video while modernized, lost its category and with it - significance.

Edit: Fun fact - as this border basically runs through town, and Croats populate both sides, and basically there had never been a border there until YU breakup, controls were always a bit relaxed in that area. There was one shop that served to local population as a shortcut as you could enter the shop in one country and go to the other country through back door while saying hi to cashier only. They complained in newspapers sometime ago that they can't use it anymore because of Schengen.

Gas station in BiH, lady searching for something is in Croatia, street is the border:


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## devo

ChrisZwolle said:


> The border posts between the Donbas and Russia remained operational after 2014, you can see them on Google Earth imagery. Of course, you can guess about how serious those border checks were.
> 
> I assume all border crossings between Ukraine and Russia are currently barricaded. Russia also routinely shells Ukrainian border posts and settlements in the northeastern oblasts, so things are not anywhere near to normal in that area.
> 
> Ukraine is also constructing a border wall at the border with Belarus (much of which is inaccessible swamp)
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> There are also reports that Ukraine has blown up most if not all bridges on roads to the Belarusian border. So international traffic won't be going there anytime soon.


Ukraine has also dug trenches across roads to pin down any force trying to invade from Belarus. That wall looks like some floor segments put vertically.

When the tide started turning in the war, there were long queues of presumably Russians and Ukrainians on the "other side" trying to leave the Donbas, although reportedly the border with Russia proper was mostly closed. 
Also, a country in a war state would likely have heavy restrictions on internal movements anyway, an internal checkpoint ending up being more like an international border for most people. (also think the inner-German border pre 1990 and border regions of a country occupied during WW2, there would be special border citizen permits).


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## volodaaaa

devo said:


> Ukraine has also dug trenches across roads to pin down any force trying to invade from Belarus. That wall looks like some floor segments put vertically.
> 
> When the tide started turning in the war, there were long queues of presumably Russians and Ukrainians on the "other side" trying to leave the Donbas, although reportedly the border with Russia proper was mostly closed.
> Also, a country in a war state would likely have heavy restrictions on internal movements anyway, an internal checkpoint ending up being more like an international border for most people. (also think the inner-German border pre 1990 and border regions of a country occupied during WW2, there would be special border citizen permits).


I am just curious if there are any checkpoints between the occupied territories and the rest of Ukraine and if yes, if there is regular transport. There certainly used to be some kind of traffic between the former LPR and DPR and the rest of Ukraine as there were reviews of checkpoints on Google maps.


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## ChrisZwolle

Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





One of the larger checkpoints was near Mari'inka, west of Donetsk. The front line is still in the same area now.


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## Eulanthe

pleja said:


> There are no valid arguments to keep us out of Schengen.


I don't want to get too political here, but there is another issue: Romania and Bulgaria also have friends in the EU, and they won't accept a separate vote. This is why I'm not optimistic about Croatian accession, even though Croatia is technically ready. There's also the big issue of the BiH border, which is incredibly tough to defend: it's much easier for the Schengen countries to defend the SLO/H border than the HR with BiH. 

I can see both sides here: on one hand, it is absolutely idiotic to keep Croatia out because of Romania and Bulgaria. But on the other hand, I can see why it's politically impossible to expand Schengen without those two. 

For what it's worth, I have an apartment booked in Varaždin, so I'm very much hoping for a party at one of the border crossings with Slovenia  



pleja said:


> Large car park was, most likely by the looks of hills, at Ploče port.


And not Doljani? I was absolutely convinced that it was there, but yes, you're right - a lot of things came through Ploče. 

I found another video from 1993, which is definitely in Metković - is this the same place?








pleja said:


> At that time, on the other side were Croatian defence council forces or however it is translated i.e. Croats from BiH.


It's a pity that it's not shown, but it would be interesting to know if the Croats from BiH had their own border crossing there. I know they had checkpoints (before the Washington Agreements) with the other claimed territories within BiH, but I don't know anything about whether they maintained checkpoints with the Republic of Croatia. 



pleja said:


> Edit: Fun fact - as this border basically runs through town, and Croats populate both sides, and basically there had never been a border there until YU breakup, controls were always a bit relaxed in that area. There was one shop that served to local population as a shortcut as you could enter the shop in one country and go to the other country through back door while saying hi to cashier only. They complained in newspapers sometime ago that they can't use it anymore because of Schengen.


I was there a few years ago, before they allowed people to use Gabela Polje for international travel. They wouldn't let me into BiH there, although they were very apologetic. The BiH police didn't have a problem, and the Croatian police said that they didn't have a problem, but they said that they wouldn't be allowed to let me back into Croatia because they needed to scan my passport on entry, and the computer wouldn't let me pass.

The entrance to the shop is apparently open again: VIDEO Ušli smo u dućan kod Metkovića i izašli u BiH. Bez ikakve kontrole 

I have no idea if the shop entrance was there when I was there after Croatia joined the EU, but it probably was. There's even a video here, showing how you can cross the border freely. It seems that almost everyone living there has a special pass allowing them to cross the border on ul. Marka Marulica, and the whole street is designated as a border crossing for the purposes of Schengen. I'm going to go back to Metković next summer to investigate again, though.



italystf said:


> I wonder if Russians still perform border checks on the border between Russia and occupied Donbas. It would be contraddictory to claim sovereignity over Donbas and at the same time maintain border controls.


Officially, the controls were abandoned after the annexation of those territories, I think a day or two afterwards. In reality? Who knows, but I wouldn't be surprised if Russia is still controlling people.



ChrisZwolle said:


> The border posts between the Donbas and Russia remained operational after 2014, you can see them on Google Earth imagery. Of course, you can guess about how serious those border checks were.


I've seen pictures somewhere too, I'll try and dig them up. The "LDPR" didn't really do anything, they just changed the symbols and signs. But from what I gather, Russia was still treating it as an international border, while the "LDPR" were mostly hunting for bribes.



volodaaaa said:


> Did the Russians dare to demolish the border crossings?


It's a good question and I don't know the answer. I haven't seen any visual evidence at all of anything there, but it wouldn't surprise me if the "LDPR" demolished the crossings on their side.


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## pleja

Eulanthe said:


> And not Doljani? I was absolutely convinced that it was there, but yes, you're right - a lot of things came through Ploče.
> 
> I found another video from 1993, which is definitely in Metković - is this the same place?


This video helps a lot. "Opuzenka Metković" entrance sign is visible in video. I was initially going by the size of that parking lot with Ploče, but this place has the same fence even today and background brownish building matches in both videos:
Google Maps


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## Ingenioren

radamfi said:


> Is Sweden still performing routine checks from Denmark?


No. However there is document check on the ferry from Sandefjord for some reason(none on the Helsingør one) Denmark still doing check on its southern border tough.


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## italystf

volodaaaa said:


> I am just curious if there are any checkpoints between the occupied territories and the rest of Ukraine and if yes, if there is regular transport. There certainly used to be some kind of traffic between the former LPR and DPR and the rest of Ukraine as there were reviews of checkpoints on Google maps.


It's definitely not possibile to cross between free Ukraine and Russian-occupied Ukraine. Even Ukrainian refugees from occupied territory flee abroad via Russia.
Before 24 February there were some checkpoints, but traffic was extremely limited and allowed only for family reasons and other exceptions. It wasn't definitely possibile to cross as foreigners/tourists, although post-2014 Donbas was a dangerous lawless place for foreigners anyway.


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## pleja

Eulanthe said:


> I don't want to get too political here, but there is another issue: Romania and Bulgaria also have friends in the EU, and they won't accept a separate vote.












I think that all-in-one vote ship has sailed a long time ago. There are two drafts prepared, I doubt someone can change that at this short notice. Croatia's Draft Council decision.


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## MichiH

italystf said:


> It's definitely not possibile to cross between free Ukraine and Russian-occupied Ukraine.


However, it is not impossible to cross. There are not fights and soldiers everywhere along the "virtual border".



italystf said:


> Even Ukrainian refugees from occupied territory flee abroad via Russia.


I was told that even refugees from "free Ukraine" currently often prefer leaving the country via "occupied Ukraine" and Russia to Baltic States than directly to the PL/SK/RO.

However, it's war. It's hard to know what is really true.....


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## ChrisZwolle

Dutch media report that the Netherlands will veto Bulgaria's entry into Schengen, but will approve Romania and Croatia.

The foreign minister says that corruption is still an issue and the Netherlands is not the only country that will vote against Bulgaria joining Schengen now.


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## bogdymol

One issue with this is that Romania's external-EU borders with Serbia, Ucraine and Moldova are controlled to Schengen levels. However, the border Romania-Bulgaria doesn't have that level of control, as it is internal EU border and was anyway foreseen to have both countries enter Schengen at the same time. If only one of it joins Schengen, that border will become an external Schengen border, but does not have the right equipment to be controlled properly, as nobody prepared for this.


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## pleja

And, what, 75%(?) of that border is Danube. I would say they are giving you a signal to split the application and enter "within a year".


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Dutch media report that the Netherlands will veto Bulgaria's entry into Schengen, but will approve Romania and Croatia.


There are only two votes. One for Croatia and another one for RO+BG...


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## MichiH

pleja said:


> And, what, 75%(?) of that border is Danube. I would say they are giving you a signal to split the application and enter "within a year".


Why? Because the Netherlands don't want BG to join? You just need any other member to dislike RO.... And if the voting for RO+BG - as I understand - is (directly) prior to the HR voting, I guess there will be another member voting against HR just for the sake that RO+BG are not allowed to join.


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## pleja

MichiH said:


> Why? Because the Netherlands don't want BG to join? You just need any other member to dislike RO.... And if the voting for RO+BG - as I understand - is (directly) prior to the HR voting, I guess there will be another member voting against HR just for the sake that RO+BG are not allowed to join.


I'm not sure anymore who else was in the blocking pack but Netherlands was surely one of them. In any case, there's not like 20 of them - we are speaking about 2, 3, max 4 countries blocking. Romania's diplomacy should really dig around and see if it is a viable option with the rest of the pack if Netherlands is signaling it would vote them in but not Bulgaria. My main point is that RO-BG border shouldn't be much of a technical issue to cover as it is for the most part a huge river with seldom border crossings.


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## MichiH

Croatia Entering Schengen Area: No EU Member State has Objections


The ambassadors of the EU member states discussed the expansion of the Schengen area and the proposal of Croatia entering Schengen Area. None of the states objected.




www.total-croatia-news.com







> According to diplomatic sources, the *Dutch ambassador was against accepting Bulgaria*, Germany supported all three countries, and *Austria was against Bulgaria and Romania.* Another diplomatic source told Hina that France is strongly committed to Romania.
> The problem is that Bulgaria and Romania cannot be separated because the border between these countries was never even intended to be the external Schengen border. To separate the two countries, it would be necessary to prepare the protection of that border and organize the border crossings in accordance with the Schengen rules, and this *would take several years*.


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## Adrian.02

What I've read from romanian sources is quite clear: The RO-BG border was never meant to be an external Schengen border, as it is not properly equipped.
I've crossed this border only three times in my life, and can say that the Giurgiu-Ruse border point may be ready to take on this task, but the Danube crossings at Bechet and Turnu Magurele need serious investments done in order to meet the Schengen standards(in the event of a separation of the two countries).


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## Theijs

Adrian.02 said:


> What I've read from romanian sources is quite clear: The RO-BG border was never meant to be an external Schengen border, as it is not properly equipped.
> 
> Multiple border crossings need serious investments done in order to meet the Schengen standards in the event of a separation of the two countries.


Perhaps for HR and RO Schengen enlargement by land and river borders might only be introduced as of 1st of July, to give time to implement the necessary investments.

By the way, a Dutch source with quotes: Nederland blokkeert toelating Bulgarije tot Schengen-zone


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## aubergine72

MichiH said:


> Why? Because the Netherlands don't want BG to join? You just need any other member to dislike RO.... And if the voting for RO+BG - as I understand - is (directly) prior to the HR voting, I guess there will be another member voting against HR just for the sake that RO+BG are not allowed to join.


What?


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## valkrav

Adrian.02 said:


> The RO-BG border was never meant to be an external Schengen border, as it is not properly equipped.


So, if result votes will be Ro-yes and Bg-No it equel No for both countries because


> organize the border crossings in accordance with the Schengen rules, and this would take several years.


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## tfd543

tfd543 said:


> Ive seen the agenda for the meeting on the 8th of dec. Croatia’s bid for joining Schengen is decoupled from the one of RO and BG.
> Very interesting. I think it Will be turned down for those Two while Cro Will pass. Its my guess and Im not out to disdain anyone from RO or BG.


Looking forward for tomorrow. Its gonna be a good good day. Cheers


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## Eulanthe

Adrian.02 said:


> What I've read from romanian sources is quite clear: The RO-BG border was never meant to be an external Schengen border, as it is not properly equipped.


This can be solved quite quickly: the ones that aren't equipped to Schengen standards can be transformed into local border crossings (i.e. EU-only), while the others can become international crossings. It's possible to do this very quickly and without much trouble.

Even today, there are some crossings that clearly do not meet Schengen standards: Gibina (SLO-HR) is a good example.

However, I think this isn't really about Bulgaria, and more about keeping the Balkan route closed.


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## aubergine72

Eulanthe said:


> However, I think this isn't really about Bulgaria, and more about keeping the Balkan route closed.


If that's the rationale, then they're dumber than I thought. There would be no incentive to stop anyone or push them back from now on. Bulgaria and Romania can easily turn the blind eye and let everyone through.


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## ChrisZwolle

Eulanthe said:


> However, I think this isn't really about Bulgaria, and more about keeping the Balkan route closed.


That could be true, but they're not going to say that a buffer state is convenient. 

Even though the BG-TR border is pretty fortified apparently.


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## aubergine72

valkrav said:


> So, if result votes will be Ro-yes and Bg-No it equel No for both countries because


My understanding is that they will be voted together. So yes or no to the package deal. Otherwise, it would have been separate voting for BG and RO, like CR.


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## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> That could be true, but they're not going to say that a buffer state is convenient.
> 
> Even though the BG-TR border is pretty fortified apparently.


Balkan routes often goes via Greece.


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## valkrav

Right now Euronews write in the botton of the screen "Austria will put veto for Ro and Bg schengen entry"


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## tfd543

valkrav said:


> Right now Euronews write in the botton of the screen "Austria will put veto for Ro and Bg schengen entry"


Lol the New drama is tjat Luxembourg and germany Will veto Croatia’s bid if Austria blocks ro and bul.
What a circus.


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## tfd543

Breaking news

At 15:31 the voting was done. Cro went through. Nl and Aus blocked bul and ro, all other countries Were in favor. 

Next couple of hours Will be whether ro and bul Should be decoupled as NL is in favor of Ro but had a negative vote as the 2 countries were in a package….

Well congrats to croatia !!! Welcome to the club.


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## tfd543

14:31. Was too excited when writing. Lol


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## Theijs

> However, I think this isn't really about Bulgaria, and more about keeping the Balkan route closed.





> That could be true, but they're not going to say that a buffer state is convenient.
> 
> Even though the BG-TR border is pretty fortified apparently.


I wonder if Austria has any statistics to justify their veto. After all, Austrian customs are (almost) permanently checking cars coming from Hungary at Nickelsdorf on illigal immigration.

The Dutch Parliament has a black book about illigal immigration via the TR-BG border and corruption at BG customs. A television report confirmed the stories in the black book. I guess from there comes the quote from the Dutch Secretary of State that Bulgarian officers can be bribed.


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## Corvinus

tfd543 said:


> Well congrats to croatia !!! Welcome to the club.


I second that and trust they have improved a lot since 2015. At least judging by leftist-green media's ongoing slander at Croatian border and police forces, they aren't overly keen on allowing illegal entrants pass.

Romania's accession would also have been practical for Hungary - already because of Erdély Hungarians' and Hungarian visitors' easier movement. With existing border infrastructure left in place for a while, temporary intra-Schengen systematic controls could have been reintroduced in case of a spike in irregular crossings.

And Bulgaria, corruption or not, they merit the entire EU's support for strong border protection at their EU external border to Turkey.


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## Eulanthe

Theijs said:


> The Dutch Parliament has a black book about illigal immigration via the TR-BG border and corruption at BG customs. A television report confirmed the stories in the black book. I guess from there comes the quote from the Dutch Secretary of State that Bulgarian officers can be bribed.


It's not even a question of can be, but rather full scale corruption. There are many articles on the subject, but this one is among the best: Bulgaria sounds alarm over EU’s mafia-run border

But more to the point: Whistleblower who revealed massive corruption at Bulgarian border checkpoint fired 



Corvinus said:


> And Bulgaria, corruption or not, they merit the entire EU's support for strong border protection at their EU external border to Turkey.


At this moment, there should be a simple offer for the EU to take over responsibility for the Turkish border in exchange for Schengen membership.


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## Vignole

As you may know, Montenegro uses the euro unilaterally. Currently, it is impossible to travel to Montenegro by land without leaving the eurozone or the Schengen area. Still, thanks to the Pelješac Bridge and the accession of Croatia to the Schengen Area and the eurozone, it will be possible from January 1st, 2023.


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## aubergine72

Eulanthe said:


> At this moment, there should be a simple offer for the EU to take over responsibility for the Turkish border in exchange for Schengen membership.


There would be no opposition to that here.


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## cinxxx

After this absolute shameful move by Austria I will boycott them everywhere I can.
Will not make any bank account at one of their banks, buy anything made by them, or buy something in their country, including petrol, even it's cheaper than here.

While giving an interview, austrian minister blocked Romanian press from asking questions using bodyguards. No comment.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=675608964158991


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## satanism

Bulgaria and Romania, we are certainly not perfect...not even close. But it also seems very convenient to blame the entire migrant crisis on us and hold our Schengen membership hostage because of topics totally unrelated. If rule of law and other such topics are prerequisite to join the Schengen area, then put it in the requirements.....
Lets also not forget Western Europe was actively inviting those people a couple years ago....so why the surprise now that the flow doesn't stop...


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## tfd543

One interesting question during the meeting was whether bul and ro could be decoupled but could not be possible. Why that if anyone knows?


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## stickedy

Vignole said:


> As you may know, Montenegro uses the euro unilaterally. Currently, it is impossible to travel to Montenegro by land without leaving the eurozone or the Schengen area. Still, thanks to the Pelješac Bridge and the accession of Croatia to the Schengen Area and the eurozone, it will be possible from January 1st, 2023.


And what is exactly the point of it?


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## italystf

tfd543 said:


> One interesting question during the meeting was whether bul and ro could be decoupled but could not be possible. Why that if anyone knows?


Because if only one of the two joins Schengen it would become necessary to upgrade all RO-BG border crossings to meet the standards required to outer Schengen border crossings, and such an upgrade would be very expensive and time-consuming.


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## italystf

In 2023 for the first time since 1945 the entire Venezia Giulia historical region (split beween I-SLO-HR) will be free of border checkpoints and use the same currency. It will be a historical region for people of that territory.
Maybe next January I will drive to somewhere in Croatian Istria just for the sake it. The North-Westermost corner of Croatia is just 130 km away from where I live, so accessible even for a day trip. I will probably get some freshly-minted Croatian Euro coins.


----------



## Corvinus

satanism said:


> Lets also not forget Western Europe was actively inviting those people a couple years ago....so why the surprise now that the flow doesn't stop...


There's utter hypocrisy going on in Austria, as can be witnessed by browsing reader comments on the Kronen Zeitung's online portal. Besides rants about RO - BG, the entire Ostblock is being slammed ("beggar states", "migrant forwarders", "shouldn't have joined the EU in the first place..."), including Hungary whose border fortification and surveillance so far has prevented hundreds of thousands of Merkel guests to reach Austria, at the Hungarian taxpayer's expense. Now, Hungary and "the Orbán" are being accused of forwarding, even kicking over illegals to Austria! Which is nonsense as the latter and their traffickers know their destination of choice and the direction towards it without any Hungarian assistance!

Forgotten how back in 2015 Faymann arrogantly referred to his country as the good ones not building fences (just a door with side wings, _"Türl mit Seitenteilen"_) and not excluding the "poor persecuted refugees"!


----------



## italystf

[OT] I wonder why it's plenty of people (and politicians) around who speak against desperate migrants, but very few people speak against the criminal, mafia-style network that exploits these desperate migrants. Those who charge all their money to take them to Europe hidden in a boat or a truck. Or those who enslave them in agriculture or prostitution. [/OT]


----------



## Theijs

Eulanthe said:


> It's not even a question of can be, but rather full scale corruption. There are many articles on the subject, but this one is among the best: Bulgaria sounds alarm over EU’s mafia-run border
> 
> But more to the point: Whistleblower who revealed massive corruption at Bulgarian border checkpoint fired


I wasn’t aware of those articles, just discovered this one in Dutch press: Hoe lek is de Bulgaarse grens bij de beruchte grensplaats Kapitan Andreevo?


----------



## cinxxx

italystf said:


> Because if only one of the two joins Schengen it would become necessary to upgrade all RO-BG border crossings to meet the standards required to outer Schengen border crossings, and such an upgrade would be very expensive and time-consuming.


That's not quite true. It wouldn't be such a big deal. It wouldn't take that much and also not cost that much.
There are not many border crossings with BG and most of the border is the river Danube.


----------



## italystf

cinxxx said:


> That's not quite true. It wouldn't be such a big deal. It wouldn't take that much and also not cost that much.
> There are not many border crossings with BG and most of the border is the river Danube.


So why it is "either both of them or none of them"?


----------



## cinxxx

italystf said:


> So why it is "either both of them or none of them"?


Because that's how it was always planned and Bulgarians were today against being split.
It's all just politics.


----------



## aubergine72

cinxxx said:


> After this absolute shameful move by Austria I will boycott them everywhere I can.
> Will not make any bank account at one of their banks, buy anything made by them, or buy something in their country, including petrol, even it's cheaper than here.
> 
> While giving an interview, austrian minister blocked Romanian press from asking questions using bodyguards. No comment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=675608964158991


What a piece of scheisse.


----------



## MichiH

> It's all just politics.


It's all just personal interest.


----------



## g.spinoza

del


----------



## italystf

stickedy said:


> Yes, it was and most likely still is illegal to take other currencies than Kuna in Croatia for payment.
> 
> The only exception are the toll booths at the motorway: There you can pay with Euro and get Kuna back. Which was a good place to get some Kuna in hand before reaching the final destination.
> 
> However, all this is history in 19 days.


Is it really illegal to pay with foreign currencies in HR or simply it is not mandatory to accept them?
Is it illegal to pay with a foreign currency even if the other person agrees?


----------



## pleja

italystf said:


> Is it really illegal to pay with foreign currencies in HR or simply it is not mandatory to accept them?
> Is it illegal to pay with a foreign currency even if the other person agrees?


Lets put it this way - you can't legally buy a coffee or have a dinner in a restaurant with foreign currency. If restaurant owner happens to accept such payment he would either not give you a receipt (tax evasion) or if he does so and money(kunas) in his cash register doesn't match receipts he would probably be fined for possible tax evasion.


----------



## AnelZ

The same is in Bosnia and Herzegovina (and I guess in most countries), the only legal tender is the convertible mark (KM/BAM). If the establishment accepts anything else, they are subject to a fine if caught.


----------



## alserrod

italystf said:


> Is it really illegal to pay with foreign currencies in HR or simply it is not mandatory to accept them?
> Is it illegal to pay with a foreign currency even if the other person agrees?



Each territory has one legal currency and all payments have to be done in that currency. It is a legal requirement.
I just remember the only exemption of Andorra in the past. Both Spanish peseta and French franc were legal. Almost all was done in pesetas but you could have accounts in francs too.

Therefore, all payments are done in that currency. 
When you pay in another currency, they are doing a currency exchange by their own. That's "illegal activity". In a hotel they will declare the exchange (legal activity) but in other business, surely they will not.

It is not only a business affair (usually they will earn few money, rates will be fair) but ... just think it is a way for uncontrolled black money. 
Government will not care about small business but will be worried with big ones.


----------



## Coccodrillo

I wonder why one state should prohibit payments with foreign currencies, if the sales are properly registered in accounting registers. The state might just want to impose economic activities an official exchange rate. Sure, the owner should be able to refuse payments in other currencies.

In Switzerland it is possible to pay in euros if the owner accept them, usually at an unfavourable exchange rate. I don't know how this is registered: the accounting is certainly done in CHF, and the owner might keep the extra profit for himself. I don't know. When some months ago Italy lowered its fuel taxes, some Swiss fuel stations even offered a lower price if you paid in EUR in cash, and apparently this was legal. I suppose in this case the owners registered the sale as if it was in CHF, and so paid taxes on an income that didn't occur.

In the same way, in Italy near the border they accept Swiss francs. In both cases the change is always in the local currency.


----------



## italystf

alserrod said:


> Each territory has one legal currency and all payments have to be done in that currency. It is a legal requirement.
> I just remember the only exemption of Andorra in the past. Both Spanish peseta and French franc were legal. Almost all was done in pesetas but you could have accounts in francs too.


In the Italian exclave of Campione d'Italia and in the German exclave of Büsingen am Hochrhein (both completelty surrounded by Switzerland) the euro and the Swiss franc are both legal currencies.
I wonder if in Gibraltar the euro is commonly used alongside the pound sterling, that is the official currency.
When I visited Czech Republic in 2014 I remember that many businesses accepted euro. I don't know if they were allowed to do so, or if they simply did that because they could "cheat" customers on the exchange rate,


----------



## radamfi

What about when you pay by card and the machine gives you the option of paying in your home currency? It is usually better to pay in the local currency, because you get a poor exchange rate if you use your home currency, but is that banned in Croatia? What about websites that let you pay in a variety of currencies?


----------



## alserrod

I was there some years ago and it was accepted in some business.

I tried to pay always in kuna because I didn't had any fee for exchange in the card


----------



## Eulanthe

Taking money in Euro isn't banned in Croatia, why are people saying that? I've paid for many hotels in Euro in the past with a Croatian invoice, I've paid for other services (with a proper Croatian invoice), and so on. The only rule is that you need to have the VAT amount in Kuna as well as the foreign currency chosen.

The real reason why they don't take Euro in many places is that it's quite complicated to accept two currencies in cash.



pleja said:


> Lets put it this way - you can't legally buy a coffee or have a dinner in a restaurant with foreign currency.


Of course you can. I've done this in the past with a large group. The price is in Euro, VAT is listed on the receipt in Kuna and Euro, and the exchange rate is based on the Croatian National Bank rate. It's nothing impossible.

The problem is that it's just not worthwhile for most businesses to deal with two currencies. The Kuna is easily available, and tourists know that they need to have Kuna, so really, no problem at all.


----------



## Ingenioren

They always accepted NOK in the nearest Swedish town here aswell.


----------



## MattiG

Ingenioren said:


> They always accepted NOK in the nearest Swedish town here aswell.


This discussion has been quite amazing to me. I have thought that the funny regulations related to taking foreign currency are past times from the era of the Iron Curtain. I am quite sure that if you go to the shopping hell in Charlottenberg and want to pay say Mongolian Tögrök, it will be accepted. The exchange rate most likely would be quite bad, and you might be guided to a customer service point.

I am not sure about those about dozen Jugoslavias, but at least the merchants here have the right to receive any currency, if there are business reasons to do so. It is about risk and transaction cost management, nothing else.

What comes to the Nordic countries, the question is quite irrelevant, because of the quick transition towards a cashless society. Last summer, I spent about two weeks in Sweden and Norway with my wife. We needed cash exactly once, at a distant camping site in Norway. All other purchases were made on a credit card.


----------



## pleja

Eulanthe said:


> Taking money in Euro isn't banned in Croatia, why are people saying that? I've paid for many hotels in Euro in the past with a Croatian invoice, I've paid for other services (with a proper Croatian invoice), and so on. The only rule is that you need to have the VAT amount in Kuna as well as the foreign currency chosen.
> 
> The real reason why they don't take Euro in many places is that it's quite complicated to accept two currencies in cash.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you can. I've done this in the past with a large group. The price is in Euro, VAT is listed on the receipt in Kuna and Euro, and the exchange rate is based on the Croatian National Bank rate. It's nothing impossible.
> 
> The problem is that it's just not worthwhile for most businesses to deal with two currencies. The Kuna is easily available, and tourists know that they need to have Kuna, so really, no problem at all.


There is some stuff you can pay in foreign currency but it is highly regulated. Details for tourism: Plaćanja i naplata u devizama u turističko-ugostiteljskoj djelatnosti

Basically, yeah, you might be able to pay for a hotel, but not for a coffee in that same hotel restaurant.


----------



## x-type

Usually it is possible to pay in euros at some stores at tourist routes or in border areas, especially rest areas. They probably have registered exchanging business as well, so they will register customers' euros as exchanging money, and then registering the purchase.


----------



## italystf

At the Dragonja border crossing between Portoroz (SLO) and Umag (HR), on the HR side, there is a booth where you can stop to exchange money when you are driving from a country to another. But, according to road markings (solid line in the median), you can't access it when you're driving northbound (from HR to SLO). What an idiocy. Although in practice you can, as the money exchange office is not within the sight of border police.
However within two weeks both border controls and money exchange will become history there.








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


----------



## satanism

italystf said:


> At the Dragonja border crossing between Portoroz (SLO) and Umag (HR), on the HR side, there is a booth where you can stop to exchange money when you are driving from a country to another. But, according to road markings (solid line in the median), you can't access it when you're driving northbound (from HR to SLO). What an idiocy. Although in practice you can, as the money exchange office is not within the sight of border police.
> However within two weeks both border controls and money exchange will become history there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


Is it that big a deal, if you stop on the parking spots 50m further and cross on foot, closer to the border point, where it's much safer than crossing the road in your car, in a turn with limited visibility


----------



## Festin

Ingenioren said:


> They always accepted NOK in the nearest Swedish town here aswell.


Yea you can basically pay in any wider known currency with a bad rate. Curious if payment with euro can be prohibited within EU though.


----------



## italystf

Italian spot of "Save the Children" NGO, showing a border crossing between Ukraine and Romania with a ferry across Danube river. Apparently, many Ukrainian refugees are fleeing the war via that route.





Relevant part is until 0:13


----------



## Ingenioren

MattiG said:


> All other purchases were made on a credit card.


Actually i been needing to bring Swedish cash to Sweden again lately, due to popularity of payment app Swish, in Norway its the same hastle for foureigners with our app called Vipps.


----------



## MattiG

Ingenioren said:


> Actually i been needing to bring Swedish cash to Sweden again lately, due to popularity of payment app Swish, in Norway its the same hastle for foureigners with our app called Vipps.


Country-specific payment systems are somewhat annouying for travellers. In our case, the Mastercard credit/debit combo card worked always, even in the NFC mode.

The cashless payments have lead to an interesting change: Coin operated showers have disappeared at the Norwegian camping sites.


----------



## Eulanthe

Ingenioren said:


> Actually i been needing to bring Swedish cash to Sweden again lately, due to popularity of payment app Swish, in Norway its the same hastle for foureigners with our app called Vipps.


These apps are incredibly annoying! I've had the same experience in Denmark with their version. 

Why on earth are these apps not open to anyone with a credit/debit card?


----------



## Eulanthe

A fun little historical picture: the border crossing in the Port of Tallinn in 1993-4. 










The red line shows the route through the border control (under the terminal building) and onto the ship. This was for the Swedish route: for the Finnish route, traffic would turn left after passing through border control.


----------



## kostas97

^ Isn't that the famous ship _Estonia_, that sank in 1994?


----------



## General Maximus

I can see the Silja Symphony on that photo or perhaps it's the twin ship Silja Serenade. They usually run between Stockholm and Helsinki. I've got many happy memories on those...


----------



## g.spinoza

Eulanthe said:


> These apps are incredibly annoying! I've had the same experience in Denmark with their version.
> 
> Why on earth are these apps not open to anyone with a credit/debit card?


Italian app Satispay is open to anyone with a SEPA bank account.


----------



## MattiG

General Maximus said:


> I can see the Silja Symphony on that photo or perhaps it's the twin ship Silja Serenade. They usually run between Stockholm and Helsinki. I've got many happy memories on those...


The big ship in the picture is not Silja Symphony but m/s Sally Albatross.


----------



## Eulanthe

kostas97 said:


> ^ Isn't that the famous ship _Estonia_, that sank in 1994?


It is, but I deliberately avoided saying that!

The terminal there was built for the Stockholm route, but it's not clear to me if it was also used for the Helsinki route too, or if there was an alternative in use.


----------



## italystf

Norway-Russia border crossing. Why there is a toll to pay in addition to immigration/custom controls?








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


----------



## radamfi

italystf said:


> Norway-Russia border crossing. Why there is a toll to pay in addition to immigration/custom controls?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


It is normal to have the local word for customs on the top of the sign. "Toll" is Norwegian for customs.


----------



## italystf

radamfi said:


> It is normal to have the local word for customs on the top of the sign. "Toll" is Norwegian for customs.


So it's a false friend with English.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

italystf said:


> So it's a false friend with English.


Yes. And if those toll guys ask if you have purchased any øl, they don't mean oil either.


----------



## ctrevisan

I was there last summer... amazing place!


----------



## MattiG

radamfi said:


> It is normal to have the local word for customs on the top of the sign. "Toll" is Norwegian for customs.


Germans might see that sign funny.


----------



## General Maximus

At least they've got fart control....


----------



## italystf

ctrevisan said:


> I was there last summer... amazing place!


Did you also cross into Russia? How the procedure was? It probably wasn't easy before the war, I can't imagine today.


----------



## Verso

^^ Why wouldn't it have been easy? I was in Russia in 2019 and I just needed a visa, that's all.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> ^^ Why wouldn't it have been easy? I was in Russia in 2019 and I just needed a visa, that's all.


Now relationships between Russia and the West are much worse than in 2019. Several Russian spies have been arrested in Norway. Russia is invading a country that aims to become part of the Western world. The Kremlin has openly called Western countries enemies and is threatening the West with nukes. The West, for a good reason, is boycotting Russia as much as possibile. This situation is probably similar to USA-USSR relations between the end of WWII and the death of Stalin.
For this reason probably the situation at Russia-NATO border is quite tense. It's hard to imagine people simply making a weekend trip between Kirkenes and Murmansk like nothing has happened in the past months.


----------



## italystf

Anyway, independent travel (especially with private vehicles and outside the most touristic places) in countries such as Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and -stans has never been that easy.
Complex bureaucracy, few people speaking English, Cyrillic-only signs, road police and border officers looking for easy money, long distances in the middle of nowhere with bad roads, etc.
It's doable but quite adventurous. Much more than driving between East and West coasts in the USA or Canada or between Southern Europe and Nordkapp.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Now relationships between Russia and the West are much worse than in 2019. Several Russian spies have been arrested in Norway. Russia is invading a country that aims to become part of the Western world. The Kremlin has openly called Western countries enemies and is threatening the West with nukes. The West, for a good reason, is boycotting Russia as much as possibile. This situation is probably similar to USA-USSR relations between the end of WWII and the death of Stalin.
> For this reason probably the situation at Russia-NATO border is quite tense. It's hard to imagine people simply making a weekend trip between Kirkenes and Murmansk like nothing has happened in the past months.


I was talking about before the war, I'm obviously aware of the current situation.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> I was talking about before the war, I'm obviously aware of the current situation.


Still the August 2022 Street View shows few cars in the parking lot on the Norweigian side. Probably a good part of them belong to people working at the checkpoint rather than to travellers. However some Russians are using that route to flee to Europe since all Russia-EU flights and Russia-Finland trains have been cancelled because of the sanctions.


----------



## Barciur

Džiugas said:


> Lithuanian border service has already launched its ETIAS website, so according to it apparently stamps will no longer be used by default for non-EEA/CH citizens, but will remain on request (as it is now for EEA/CH citizens). Border crossing will be something similar to what I experienced in Canada.


Strange - how is that possible if ETIAS website was supposed to be for all of Europe and this is not implemented until November?

Also - with the stamps on request, it is rather interesting, as the schengen border code states that EEA/CH citizens "shall not" receive stamps, but I've had mixed results when I would request them


----------



## Eulanthe

Barciur said:


> Also - with the stamps on request, it is rather interesting, as the schengen border code states that EEA/CH citizens "shall not" receive stamps, but I've had mixed results when I would request them


Officially, there was never a prohibition against putting them in passports, but that it was a matter for individual member states. I suspect that in practice, what will happen is that each border crossing will have stamps 'in case of need', such as the computer system breaking down. 

But at the same time, I handed over my British passport in Ormoz on the 30th, because I completely forgot that Ormoz was only for EU citizens. The Slovenian police officer looked through my passport, saw an entry stamp from Dubrava Križovljanska, and decided to let me go. No-one questioned my passport over the last week, even though the 'state of affairs' was that I had last entered the Schengen area in February 2022 in La Linea and I hadn't left since. 

I don't have a Schengen residence permit because I'm a dual citizen, and I was crossing the borders by myself on many occasions. I always had my ID card to hand just in case, but no-one questioned anything, except the very grumpy border guard in Razkrizje who couldn't understand what I was doing and why 

The other odd thing was that they were waving me through on various occasions despite holding up my British passport without any residence permit. 



pleja said:


> Schengen rules are being followed for quite some time already as part of the implementation procedure.


Yes, things such as the 'second line control' and other Schengen rules were already implemented, even on the SLO/HR border. The only big difference was that Croatia wasn't systematically scanning passports and ID cards on the internal EU borders, whereas Slovenia and Hungary were. I was crossing over a lot in 2018, and only the Slovenian side was making a point of scanning every time. Croatia on the other hand often didn't even bother with exit controls, especially on smaller crossings.


----------



## Barciur

Eulanthe said:


> Officially, there was never a prohibition against putting them in passports, but that it was a matter for individual member states. I suspect that in practice, what will happen is that each border crossing will have stamps 'in case of need', such as the computer system breaking down.


Interesting. On different occassions, I have been granted Polish stamps into my Polish passport and rejected in others. I also received a stamp from Germany and have been rejected in Germany. And then I have a Norwegian passport. So in practice, it all ends up really depending on the border guard.


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> Today I crossed the SLO-HR border at Jelšane/Rupa (Ljubljana-Rijeka), obviously without getting stopped. I was the only one crossing the border at the time. Btw, there was also an Italian translation of "free passage", so there were 5 languages.


At HR/H crossings there is no Slovenian nor Italian, but Hungarian instead  At Mursko Središće they probably have also 5 languages, with Slovenian and Hungarian variants included.


----------



## General Maximus

I got stopped à while back on the border coming out of Bratislava by the Slovaks. Passport, driver's license, vehicle papers the lot they wanted to see. The lot. I was driving on an English reg with Austrian driver's license, took some time to work that out...


----------



## Džiugas

Barciur said:


> Strange - how is that possible if ETIAS website was supposed to be for all of Europe and this is not implemented until November?
> 
> Also - with the stamps on request, it is rather interesting, as the schengen border code states that EEA/CH citizens "shall not" receive stamps, but I've had mixed results when I would request them


I throroughly have read the Schengen border code as well as the Lithuanian passport stamping rules – there is no such clause stating that 'EEA/CH passports cannot be stamped'. For me, asking the stamps is mostly successful than it is not, and I have successfully got stamps from Lithuania (never ever refused in Kaunas and Vilnius airports), Latvia, Germany, Belgium, Hungary, UK (before and after Brexit), Finland, Italy, Slovenia, Croatia, Denmark, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Cyprus, Ireland, Spain and Portugal.

It seems that there will be both national (did not find any other) and European websites for the EES/ETIAS.


----------



## Džiugas

Entry/Exist system biometry kiosks are already installed in Vilnius Central station that in normal times has Russian transit and Minsk-bound trains.

I made a photo but my phone does not allow me to upload it now.


As for now, the only existing international passenger train connection is Vilnius-Kaunas-Mockava-Warsaw-Kraków daily train.


----------



## Eulanthe

x-type said:


> At HR/H crossings there is no Slovenian nor Italian, but Hungarian instead  At Mursko Središće they probably have also 5 languages, with Slovenian and Hungarian variants included.


Just four: my picture from last week.










It's surprising that they didn't include Hungarian, as Lendava is a bilingual municipality.

About the EES - apparently Bulgaria and Romania are going to use it too, and the current "hack" of spending 90 days in Schengen and then 90 days in Romania/Bulgaria won't work anymore, as the two will now have a combined clock.

This is a pretty big change, and I wouldn't be shocked if Ireland and Cyprus also join this.


----------



## abdeka

A Qatari biker traveling between Tunisia and Algeria, crossed the Tunisia-Algeria border in Oum Teboul.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I took some photos of the Rateče - Valico di Fusine border crossing between Slovenia and Italy. This is the northernmost border crossing between both countries, between Kranjska Gora to Tarvisio. It's also a minor mountain pass (850 m).


Rateče - Valico di Fusine Slovenia-Italy border crossing 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


Rateče - Valico di Fusine Slovenia-Italy border crossing 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


Rateče - Valico di Fusine Slovenia-Italy border crossing 06 by European Roads, on Flickr


Rateče - Valico di Fusine Slovenia-Italy border crossing 07 by European Roads, on Flickr


Rateče - Valico di Fusine Slovenia-Italy border crossing 09 by European Roads, on Flickr


Rateče - Valico di Fusine Slovenia-Italy border crossing 10 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Verso

^^ It's more like a wide saddle than a mountain pass. It doesn't even have a name (at least in Slovenia). The former border checkpoint and the nearest village are called Rateče, so you can use this name for the "mountain pass" as well. But it's true that the valleys on both sides of the border gently rise and reach their highest point(s) somewhere around the border (I think it's on the Italian side).

Those stickers are disgusting, btw. Who cares about your sticker? Does anyone know what A.A.S.S. stands for?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> Does anyone know what A.A.S.S. stands for?


_azienda autonoma statale della strada_ 

This was the original road operator (now known as ANAS).


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> I took some photos of the Rateče - Valico di Fusine border crossing between Slovenia and Italy.


This one is the only I-SLO border crossing that was also an I-YU border before WWII. The rest of the border was moved westward after Italy lost its Eastern territories to Yugoslavia with the 1947 Paris Treaty.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Those stickers are disgusting, btw. Who cares about your sticker?


Every mountain pass in Italy is like that. It is probably mostly related to bikers' subculture. That's as stupid and as annoying as graffiti on trains or in public toilets.


----------



## tom666

Eulanthe said:


> Just four: my picture from last week.
> 
> View attachment 4398695
> 
> 
> It's surprising that they didn't include Hungarian, as Lendava is a bilingual municipality.
> 
> About the EES - apparently Bulgaria and Romania are going to use it too, and the current "hack" of spending 90 days in Schengen and then 90 days in Romania/Bulgaria won't work anymore, as the two will now have a combined clock.
> 
> This is a pretty big change, and I wouldn't be shocked if Ireland and Cyprus also join this.


The sign is Croatian, Lendava is in Slovenia.


----------



## x-type

tom666 said:


> The sign is Croatian, Lendava is in Slovenia.


So is Koper Slovenian, but there is Italian included at the same sign


----------



## italystf

x-type said:


> So is Koper Slovenian, but there is Italian included at the same sign


Italian has the status of minority language on both sides of the Dragonija "river" (actually a stream, between Koper and Umag). Moreover, there's plenty of touristic traffic from Italy.
There is no Italian-speaking minority around Pasjak border crossing, but this crossing in often used by Italians because it's the main road from Italy to Rijeka and Dalmatia.
But in Lendava? It's highly unlikely that Italian-speaking people would cross there.


----------



## stickedy

Verso said:


> ^^ It's more like a wide saddle than a mountain pass. It doesn't even have a name (at least in Slovenia). The former border checkpoint and the nearest village are called Rateče, so you can use this name for the "mountain pass" as well. But it's true that the valleys on both sides of the border gently rise and reach their highest point(s) somewhere around the border (I think it's on the Italian side).


In Italy it does not rise that gently from Tarvisio. But of course, it's not comparable with other mountain passes in that area


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> Italian has the status of minority language on both sides of the Dragonija "river" (actually a stream, between Koper and Umag). Moreover, there's plenty of touristic traffic from Italy.
> There is no Italian-speaking minority around Pasjak border crossing, but this crossing in often used by Italians because it's the main road from Italy to Rijeka and Dalmatia.
> But in Lendava? It's highly unlikely that Italian-speaking people would cross there.


I didn't mean for Italian in Lendava, but Hungarian. Eulanthe got the po
uint - Lendava is bilingual, and plenty of transit to Hungary uses that border crossing, so Hungarian would be welcome there, just as Italian is on Istrian border crossings. That was my point.


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## italystf

I wonder if those "free passage" signs on Croatian border crossings with Slovenia and Hungary will removed in a couple of years, when everybody will become used to the lack of border controls, like among older Schengen members.


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## x-type

Probably yes when they remove facilities or at least remove facilities enough so they don't seem to be functional anymore.

This is not the first time with Free passage signs, we have them at some toll stations as well.

Former Krk Bridge toll station








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.hr





Tunnel Učka toll station - here they have put because it might have been confusing for drivers approaching it








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.hr





Tunnel Sveti Ilija former toll station








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.hr





Might be along A11 as well since the tolls have been suspended there temporary after the earthquake.


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## italystf

Border crossing between Italy and Yugoslavia at Rabuiese/Spodnje Škofije (Trieste-Koper road) in the 1970s.
In this area the border was demarcated only in 1954 with the London Memorandum, that dissolved the Free Territory of Trieste giving most Area A to Italy and the whole Area B plus the southernmost strip of Area A to Yugoslavia. The 1954 border realignment assigned to Yugoslavia several villages previously belonging to Muggia and San Dorligo della Valle municipalities under Area A Western Allied military government. As a consequence, most of the almost 4,000 residents of that 11 km2 territory fled to Italy.










The 1945-1954 border marked (Morgan Line) on a wall in Spodnje Škofije, around 1 km south of the current border.









Red: 1954-1991 Italy-Yugoslavia and 1991-present Italy-Slovenia border
Yellow: 1945-1954 border between Area A (Western Allies controlled) and Area B (Yugoslavia controlled) of the Free Territory of Trieste


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## italystf

Villa de Nordis, Gorizia


















The Villa de Nordis in Gorizia was supposed to become part of Yugoslavia after WWII. It didn't happen because the noble woman who owned it was in close relationships with Winston Churchill family and in the immediate aftermath of WWII hosted several parties inviting Allied Forces officials in exchange of a border demarcation in her favour.


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## tfd543

^^ Hah really ? Some source for This one ?


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## stickedy

Seems that there is of course no official statement: Villa De Nordis

However, the edge in the border line there looks at least not random


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