# Kyoto, Gyeongju are replicas of Chang'an??



## F20B (Feb 23, 2006)

Chang'an in the Tang Dynasty (618 - 917) was, with Constantinople (Istanbul) and Baghdad, one of the largest cities of the world at that time. The Japanese in 794 built their ancient capital, Heian-Kyo or Kyoto, modelled after the Tang Dynasty capital, Chang'an. As a result, the modern Kyoto reflects some characteristics of Tang Chang'an. Similarly, the Korean Silla dynasty modeled the layout of their capital of Gyeongju after the Tang capital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang'an

Wow, maybe someone can find some satellite photos so we can compare the 3 cities? I wonder how much similarities they have in common.


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## duskdawn (May 13, 2006)

You just knew it?
There's an architecture expert once said, if you want to examine Tang Chinese (600 AD)'s architecture and culture, visit Japan; if you want to examine Ming Chinese (1400 AD)'s architecture and culture, visit Korea; if you want to examine Manchurian (1700 AD) architecture and culture, visit China, especially Beijing.
Like Cheongsam, Qipao and pigtails are not Chinese traditional, they are Manchurian styles!
Chinese like destroying old stuff, and build the new ones. Usually the new ones are not as elegant as the destroyed ones but that helped our culture survive and continue.


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## Skybean (Jun 16, 2004)

I would imagine that there is little similarity nowadays, as all of those cities have experienced great change over the hundreds of years. But it does put into perspective the strong influence of Xi'an and its importance at the time. Even after thousands of years, Xi'an is still one of the wealthiest and most significant cities in interior China.


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## levine (Nov 18, 2005)

How about Lijiang World Heritage city in Yunan province, China? 
Tang, Ming or Manchurian architecture?

thanks


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## oliver999 (Aug 4, 2006)

japan is strongly affected by Tang dynasty.


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## levine (Nov 18, 2005)

How about Suzhou, China?
Tang or Ming?
Thank you


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## Unsing (Apr 15, 2006)

Imagine Kyoto was Japan's capital for over 1000 years. It's definitely not what it looked like during the Heian period.
The Imperial Palace was moved 2 km east in the 14th century, and today's main avenue is also east from the original one.
However, its grid system still works.


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## Tom_Green (Sep 4, 2004)

How was Nara build?


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## Unsing (Apr 15, 2006)

Tom_Green said:


> How was Nara build?


Heijo-kyo (710-784, Nara) and Nagaoka-kyo (784-794, Kyoto) were modeled after Chang'an as well.
The first to adopt Chinese grid system was Fujiwara-kyo (694-710, Nara) but they put the Imperial Place in the middle of the city.

Some earlier capital were also settled around Nara, but those were just too small to form a city.


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## dhuwman (Oct 6, 2005)

beautiful pictures of ancient architecture. love em.


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## null (Dec 11, 2002)

two grided Cities in China

Beijing










Xi'an(Chang'an)


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## WhiteMagick (May 28, 2006)

No surprise. China was the most influential country in East Asia and is becoming one atm.


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## muzammil (Dec 24, 2006)

i really like Ming and tang dynasty, but i hate qing dynasty


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## feverwin (Feb 25, 2006)

duskdawn said:


> You just knew it?
> There's an architecture expert once said, if you want to examine Tang Chinese (600 AD)'s architecture and culture, visit Japan; if you want to examine Ming Chinese (1400 AD)'s architecture and culture, visit Korea; if you want to examine Manchurian (1700 AD) architecture and culture, visit China, especially Beijing.
> Like Cheongsam, Qipao and pigtails are not Chinese traditional, they are Manchurian styles!
> Chinese like destroying old stuff, and build the new ones. Usually the new ones are not as elegant as the destroyed ones but that helped our culture survive and continue.


I don't see too much difference between Tang, Ming and QIng style, they are all CHinese style. There's even no Manchurian architectures in my opionion, they are nomadic people, they never built a architecture until they conquered Ming. And also the forbidden city was built in Ming period, too...

See all the Korean, Japanese and Chinese ancient architectures, in my eyes, there are little difference... :cheers:


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## feverwin (Feb 25, 2006)

About Suzhou and Lijiang architectures, since they are in the south side of Yangze river, rains a lot, so their architectures are a bit different from the north wich means the roofs are more steep and more beautiful... From Tang dynasty, I don't think they changed a lot. so among these buildings, you can find 200 years old, 500 years old, even 1000 years old, and it's not that easy to tell... :cheers:


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

Gyeongju was the capital of the kingdom of Shilla. Shilla was founded much earlier than Tang Dynasty. Tang's architecture did influence Gyeongju. However, by the time of the foundation of Tang, Gyeongju already had city walls, palaces, and urban layouts that had been hundreds years old. Therefore, Gyeonju was 'modified' under Xi'an's influence, but it was not that entire city layout was modeled after her Chinese counterpart. 

Cities like Kyoto and the old capitals of Barhae (or Bohai in Chinese) more fully reflect Xi'an's city layout since they were literally new cities.


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## feverwin (Feb 25, 2006)

Well, at all the beginning, there's a mistake...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi'an

Xian is not only the capital of Tang, also the capital of Han, which is 1000 years earlier than Tang, even more ealier Zhou...



> Xi'an is listed as one of the Four Great Ancient Capitals of China because it has been the capital of 13 dynasties, including the Zhou, Qin, Han, and Tang. Xi'an is also the eastern end of the Silk Road. The city has more than 3,100 years of history. It was called Chang'an (Traditional Chinese: 長安; Simplified Chinese: 长安; pinyin: Cháng'ān; literally "Perpetual Peace"), in ancient times.


I don't know if Gyeongju was found after Chang'an, however Chang'an was founded long before Shilla even existed... :cheers:


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## levine (Nov 18, 2005)

So Han's architecture did influence Tang, and then Ming and Qiang.


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## feverwin (Feb 25, 2006)

Yes, it is. It influence so much that today our entire ethnic people are called Han people... eventhough our history are much longer than that...


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## duskdawn (May 13, 2006)

When I was saying the differences among Tang, Ming and Qing architecture styles I didn't mean to separate them totally. They are of course within the same concept of Chinese architecture, but things change. Even Mongolians adopted Chinese culture along with Manchus, they surely added their own flavor into Chinese architecture or even culture. IMO, Han/Tang's architectures are quite distinct from later styles. I found their grey color and styles more elegant which you can still see these in Japan.
Chinese architecture styles developed from 3000 years ago (far earlier before Tang) and of course couldn't be sum up by one or two lines.


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## dhuwman (Oct 6, 2005)

Ancient Seorabeol (present day Kyungju) map during the 8th c. a.d.









































Unfortunately, ancient buildings of Kyungju have been completely burned and destroyed during the events of Mongol invasion of 13th century, 7-year war of 15th century, Manchu invasion of 17th century, Japanese occupation of 19~20th century and Korean war in the 50s. What are left (other than the stone architecture) are the rebuilt version of ancient architectures.


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## feverwin (Feb 25, 2006)

Nice pictures... :cheers:


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## castermaild55 (Sep 8, 2005)

in japanese history, The clan who had the influence power was Hata(秦）.
there are so many footprints in whole country of Japan
京都（kyoto) is called 太秦（uzumasa)
Roma is 大秦　in chinese
common key word is 景教　　http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism








http://kohkosai.web.infoseek.co.jp/hirin/Hirin/page/shitu/2/201.htm
大秦
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daqin

for exampl.
Shimazu clan of Satuma,They are Hatah秦's descendants. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimazu_family
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/島津氏

their family crest









and 
hata(秦） clan....they changed name in kanji to 羽田、畠、畠山 、畑田、八田.....so on
they say they were related with 秦皇帝.
however i dont no their ethnicity

畠(hata in Japanese)　and 畑(hata)　are not from chinese characters
these characters were made in japan

田　means rice field ,you know.

+（cross) and ○
famous Nija( hattori clan服部） is also descendants of 秦（hata, they ware Technological group of 機織（hata-ori)

http://f17.aaa.livedoor.jp/~kmaz/keikyo/keikyou-hi.htm

and they made Kyoto
As for the characteristic of Kyoto, it is arranged by Kabbalah....
shrine, mountain....................











note
what does 大闢 mean in Chinese?:nuts: in old chinese bible
hata was worshiping 大辟 shrine


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## ladolcevita (Aug 11, 2005)

duskdawn said:


> You just knew it?
> There's an architecture expert once said, if you want to examine Tang Chinese (600 AD)'s architecture and culture, visit Japan; if you want to examine Ming Chinese (1400 AD)'s architecture and culture, visit Korea; if you want to examine Manchurian (1700 AD) architecture and culture, visit China, especially Beijing.
> Like Cheongsam, Qipao and pigtails are not Chinese traditional, they are Manchurian styles!
> Chinese like destroying old stuff, and build the new ones. Usually the new ones are not as elegant as the destroyed ones but that helped our culture survive and continue.


There are several things that are wrong with this statement factually. First, those notable architectures in Beijing we often think of are built in the Ming Dynasty (Forbidden City, Temple of Heaven, Temple of Earth...), not Qing. 

Second, even though Japanese cities like Kyoto are founded during the Tang Dynasty era (700s-800s), but it has evolved throughout time and formed its own Japanese characteristics. I agree with some users that stated that present-day Kyoto doesn't necessarily resemble the Heian-Kyo during the Heian period.

Third, I don't think Korean architectures reflects Ming Dynasty architectures (maybe some, but certainly not those of Gyeongju). Some users above also mentioned Tang Dynasty influences in Korean architectures (especially during Silla period), so there is no absolute answer.


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## Sen (Nov 13, 2004)

I think Nara is probably the best place to see Tang dynasty architecture.


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## TR-909+ (Jul 20, 2004)

architecture in kyoto.


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## bobdikl (Jul 20, 2004)

Oriental asesthetiec - nature, calm, simplicity, harmony and beautiful!


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## YelloPerilo (Oct 17, 2003)

^^

Praise of Shadows by Jun'ichiro Tanizaki is a must read to comprehend Eastern aesthetic.


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## travelworld123 (Sep 24, 2008)

interesting thread!


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Ah, those fantastic pictures of Kyoto bring back memories from my trip there. Interesting discussion too, though I can't actively contribute due to lack of knowledge.


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## null (Dec 11, 2002)

castermaild55 said:


> note
> what does 大闢 mean in Chinese?:nuts: in old chinese bible
> hata was worshiping 大辟 shrine



大辟：capital punishment (in feudal times)


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

Lijiang is Naxi minority architecture, not Han Chinese.


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## flesh_is_weak (Jun 16, 2006)

OT, but i suddenly remembered a line from Bruno's song "stop fighting north and south korea, you're both basically chinese" :lol:


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## feverwin (Feb 25, 2006)

So old thread...


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## feverwin (Feb 25, 2006)

the spliff fairy said:


> Lijiang is Naxi minority architecture, not Han Chinese.


No difference to me... You can differentiate them?


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

yep, theyre influenced by Tibetan and Bai architecture and living customs. They have soil and stone roof tiles, plaster/ wood covered walls and wooden frames that are resilient to earthquakes (the govt noted how the 1996 earthquake destroyed mostly Han houses and not the Naxi ones, and rebuilt 1/3 of the city in Naxi style). The houses face 3 directions, with a screen wall opposite the main gate, and employ a roof for each floor, like mini pagodas. The upturned eaves on the houses are more pronounced, and more common.
























large wooden frames. Pointy roof eaves will be added later.










new Naxi style:













Traditional Han architecture by comparison - lots more brick, heavier roofs, screen frontage, tends to be sturdier, single storey or single roofed courtyard homes. More gentle curves, less sharp lines:










Alfred Molon, www.molon.de








http://juliechao.com


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