# AUSTRALIA | High Speed Rail



## SydneyCity (Nov 14, 2010)

This is a thread for discussion of high speed rail proposals in Australia. These include the Brisbane - Sydney - Canberra - Melbourne proposal, the Bunbury - Perth proposal and any other proposals that may pop up.

This is NOT a place to discuss Victoria's Regional Fast Rail, as it is not a true HSR system.


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## dumbfword (Apr 27, 2010)

What are the odds of it happening? Most Aussie cities can't even get a subway/metro built.


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## transman (Oct 23, 2008)

there has been various studies and proposals for a east coast high speed rail link by the public and private sectors.while it is very embarrasing that countries less richer and/or populated than australia are going ahead with biulding their high speed rail and the fact that we still have the tin can XPT it is about time we get serious with high speed rail the federal labour government anounced during the election campaign they will be doing a feasibility study within the next few years.my opinion is the best high speed rail to go with would be a japanese shinkensen like the E5 or E6 or even the chinese CRH380 that recently broke the record of 486K/PH


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## dumbfword (Apr 27, 2010)

I don't believe the E5 or E6 are being offered for export.


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## k.k.jetcar (Jul 17, 2008)

dumbfword said:


> I don't believe the E5 or E6 are being offered for export.


Actually, JR East had mentioned earlier in the year (sorry I don't have the source), that the E6 trainset has potential to be offered as an export product. I think mainly because its loading gauge is closer to European dimensional standards.


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## stingstingsting (Jun 5, 2010)

I think at this point, Newcastle-Sydney seems to be the most plausible one to be built in the coming decades. So that might be a good start, no?

So many questions there, though...


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## 33Hz (Jul 29, 2006)

We were here before 10 years ago. That was a private consortium but even they were thwarted by scaremongering and the govt getting cold feet.

http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/speedrail/


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## SydneyCity (Nov 14, 2010)

Actually, the Melbourne - Sydney HSR was announced back in 1980. It was supposed to be completed for the bicentenary in 1988.


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## Dimethyltryptamine (Aug 22, 2009)

*High speed rail study underway*



> The Federal government has confirmed work has started on a feasibility study into a high speed rail line for Australia's east coast, that would include a link to Newcastle.
> 
> The terms of reference for the study include that a Newcastle to Sydney line should form a core element of the rail network.
> 
> The study is being carried out by global consultancy AECOM Australia and is expected to be completed in 12 months.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/02/02/3127446.htm?site=newcastle


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

transman said:


> .while it is very embarrasing that countries *less richer and/or populated than australia *are going ahead with biulding their high speed rail and the fact that we still have the tin can XPT it is about time we get serious with high speed rail the federal labour government anounced during the election campaign they will be doing a feasibility study within the next few years


Less populated than Australia? Australis is one of the LEAST populated countries in the World... I can't come with any country less populated (in terms of pop. density, of course) that has high-speed rail network.


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

Suburbanist said:


> Less populated than Australia? Australis is one of the LEAST populated countries in the World... I can't come with any country less populated (in terms of pop. density, of course) that has high-speed rail network.


Neither can I. After counting the deserts of outback, the average population density of Australia is lower than Norway, Sweden or Finland including their mountains and northern forests. But the total population of Australia is bigger than the three Nordics combined, and much of it is concentrated at an extensive area of a bit higher average density.


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## clyde the puffy cat (Jan 19, 2011)

@ Suburbanist
Mmmm yeah, Australia has one of the lowest population density's,(about 3 people per sq km) but figures can sometimes mislead. Of the aprox 23 million current Aussie population, on a proposed route for HSR, which could be Melbourne-Canberra-Sydney-Newcastle-Brisbane, a total distance of about 1900km, about 12-13 million people currently reside in just these large cities, with some projections this could grow to about 20 million in 30 years. I think there'd be more than enough potential demand to use a HSR system.
I know I'd use it!(Hate flying:nuts
It's all moot, anyway. I can't see it ever happening. As Sydney city said earlier,there's been proposals for 30 years and nothings come of it, and I can't see any politicians with the vision to develop HSR or the balls to fight the vested interests against it. (airlines, car industry)
Australia: good at digging shit out of holes and selling it offshore, bad at thinking long term and making shit happen :lol:


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## Alexriga (Nov 25, 2007)

Well, I gues NewCastle Sydney Canbererra Melbourne route would have enough [assngers. It is not about denisty, those 2 big cities are close enough and have many inhabitants.


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## gramercy (Dec 25, 2008)

*Brisbane to Melbourne high speed study published*

source



> AUSTRALIA: The first of two studies into proposals for a high speed line running more than 1 600 km from Brisbane to Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


hope it gets built, 15m+ ppl


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

gramercy said:


> source
> 
> 
> 
> hope it gets built, 15m+ ppl


Yeah, narrow strips of urbanized coast lines are perfect for HSR. It works great in Japan, and would work great on the North-East coast and California coast of the US, and the East coast of Australia.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Would be interesting to see whether this will amount to anything. There are huge costs involved for such a long line. The comparison to Japan is a bit of an odd one given that they very much have the "take a train" mentality compared to Australians who love their private transport. 

The population difference between the NEC in the US and the East Coast in Australia is quite large - same with many Shinkansen corridors. 

Still, it will be interesting to hear the findings of the reports as to the viability of the line. Australia has proposed again and again to put high speed rail infrastructure in place and it has always amounted to nothing.


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## transman (Oct 23, 2008)

having a shinkensen or chinese high speed train owuld be much better to go with than a european sytem. i have seen that the japanese kawasaki version of the E5 shinkensen could be the high speed train for australia


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## city_thing (May 25, 2006)

I really can't see this ever happening, unless there's some revolution in Canberra (which I doubt there will be considering the diabolical state of Australian politics). 

It'd be great, but huge barriers stand in the way (and I'm not just talking about mountains and valleys separating Melbourne, Canberra and Sydney).


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## Never give up (Apr 8, 2009)

This is where it´s going to happen eventually. (for the benifit of us non-Australians who follow threads on your fantastic country and cities)
Canberra seems to be on a bit of a dead-end branch line. It seems as though it´s going to be difficult to make a through connection here.


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## gramercy (Dec 25, 2008)

im surprised the northern endpoint isnt the sunshine coast, its a 1/4 million people


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

gramercy said:


> im surprised the northern endpoint isnt the sunshine coast, its a 1/4 million people


Hah! I'm in Noosa right now! It's probably have to be at the southern end of the Coast as Noosa and the area is pretty small in terms of population. Maybe a link from the station with light rail or something else like that would cut it


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## aquaticko (Mar 15, 2011)

I know that most of the proposed routes go through areas that have historically been of concern to environmentalists. Anyone care to detail that aspect of this issue?


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## stingstingsting (Jun 5, 2010)

Hey aquaticko. Have a read of the High Speed Rail Phase One Report. It details quite well the environmental issues related to each corridor considered. It is a very worthwhile read anyhow 

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/rail/trains/high_speed/index.aspx


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## gramercy (Dec 25, 2008)

Sopomon said:


> Hah! I'm in Noosa right now! It's probably have to be at the southern end of the Coast as Noosa and the area is pretty small in terms of population. Maybe a link from the station with light rail or something else like that would cut it


i didnt mean noosa, i meant 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_Coast,_Queensland


its about 100 kms north of Brisbane, which would be an ideal distance for another HS stop


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

gramercy said:


> i didnt mean noosa, i meant
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_Coast,_Queensland
> 
> 
> its about 100 kms north of Brisbane, which would be an ideal distance for another HS stop


The Sunshine Coast is a collection of small settlements. The largest centre is actually Noosa. The Sunshine coast itself covers an area of 462.4 square km.


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

Svartmetall said:


> The Sunshine Coast is a collection of small settlements. The largest centre is actually Noosa. The Sunshine coast itself covers an area of 462.4 square km.


Really? I thought the Maroochy/Mooloolaba or Caloundra areas would have more people?


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Sopomon said:


> Really? I thought the Maroochy/Mooloolaba or Caloundra areas would have more people?


I don't have up-to-date population statistics, but here are how I read them:

Caloundra: 41,293
Maroochydore: 49,743 (with 7,376 in Mooloolaba)
Noosa: 51,962

So for single area it's Noosa, but Maroochydore/Mooloolaba together are bigger, but not by much. The whole area is highly dispersed really and can't be called a contiguous area, hence my comment that it's not really appropriate to view the Sunshine coast as a single entity that justifies a high speed rail link.


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## cle (Jul 6, 2007)

I would have thought the biggest priority would be relieving Sydney airport, and therefore eliminating flights.

So Sydney - Canberra would probably make most sense as a first phase? Followed by Newcastle, and then obviously Melbourne.

I'd be interested in hearing what people would suggest for serving the Gold Coast.


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## aquaticko (Mar 15, 2011)

stingstingsting said:


> Hey aquaticko. Have a read of the High Speed Rail Phase One Report. It details quite well the environmental issues related to each corridor considered. It is a very worthwhile read anyhow
> 
> http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/rail/trains/high_speed/index.aspx


Much obliged.


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

Svartmetall said:


> I don't have up-to-date population statistics, but here are how I read them:
> 
> Caloundra: 41,293
> Maroochydore: 49,743 (with 7,376 in Mooloolaba)
> ...


True. And also with the CAMCOS study hopefully resulting in a rail link to Maroochydore, it would make not much sense to have HSR terminating there. (But at this rate, Maroochy will have its train slower than Birmingham will have its HS2  )


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## G5man (Jul 28, 2008)

Now if the region was connected by regional express trains travelling at 180-200 km/h, that would probably be ok for a connection. With the towns having less than 250k, it is not viable for a true HS train. Connecting the Gold Coast to HSR should eliminate backlog at Sidney airport by taking away the need for the short haul flights.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

Never give up said:


>


You just know the likelihood of such an HSR installation's nil when no scale denoting the distances
in --say-- kilometres ain't indicated...


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)




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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

trainrover said:


>


I saw that video a while ago, the train itself looks like some kind of cyberpunk monstrosity


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## Vaud (Sep 16, 2011)

Whoever drew this map appearing in the video was probably high when he did it. HSR between Adelaide and Perth? Perth, Broome and Darwin? :nuts: HSR best factor is the fact that it can stop in between end point cities and therefore it serves more population and does it faster, but it is not a direct substitute to air travel when airports exist between cities unless total travel time is lower and for that to happen distances can't be too long, i.e. people would still travel by airplane between Melbourne and Brisbane, but maybe not between Canberra and Melbourne. What is there between Perth and Broome? Port Hedland?... not to mention the infrastructure nightmare to bring enough electricity to all sections of the rail.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

Hmmm, lofty interiors and all indeed ... it must've been some uni project ... plus I never bothered musing how come the landscape's white as ____ ... my, there's even a spur launched off Cape York twixt the Gulf of Carpentaria and Coral Sea :sly: I fess up, I'd only kept glancing at the production because due to its neverending whiteout condition ...


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## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

trainrover said:


> You just know the likelihood of such an HSR installation's nil when no scale denoting the distances
> in --say-- kilometres ain't indicated...


If you compare it to existing lines in France, it's not that much further, Paris - Lyon is only slightly less then Melbourne - Camberra, that would result to about 2 hours. Camberra - Sydney is even less.

Actually perfect distances for HSR of the latest generation (>300km/h).

Honestly I think those regional and parkways stations doesn't make a lot of sense, or there should at least be direct trains who skip them.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

Hmmm, I've found myself thinking lately that stops at airports are probably necessary :dunno:


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## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

Stops at the airports are a good idea IMO, especially in Melbourne where the new HSR would serve the airport link exclusively. They don't have the same problem as regional stations have, as the train wouldn't have reached the top speed anyway between the city and the airport.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

:sly:


trainrover said:


> ^^ clickable... hno:


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## gramercy (Dec 25, 2008)

http://www.railjournal.com/newsflash/ara-pushes-hsr-as-remedy-to-australian-air-congestion-1613.html

THE CEO of the Australasian Railway Association, Mr Bryan Nye, is calling on the Australian government to consider high-speed rail as part of the solution to solving the growing congestion at Sydney's only airport, rather than looking at the needs of air transport in isolation.

[...]


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## alb92 (Mar 14, 2012)

I've always thought that an HSR link should have a stop at SYD airport, Wollongong, Canberra and Melbourne (possibly Melbourne airport as well).

North, there should be service to Newcastle initially, and then further up to Brisbane via Gold Coast. I'm not quite sure about populations along this route, so I don't know where else services should stop.

One of the barriers to HSR are the airlines. So instead of a second Sydney airport, have the HSR operate to Kingsford-Smith, and allow Qantas and Virgin to possibly give the HSR services flight numbers and give them the ability to sell train tickets as part of flights.

For instance, for Qantas, they would want to have people traveling from Melbourne to Dallas go through SYD, so even with HSR, they would still need flights to allow this, unless they can sell tickets on the HSR, and have Melbourne passengers take the train straight to SYD airport and then connect to a flight, as if it was a normal flight to flight connection.

I really hope HSR comes through, and believe that the East Coast corridor is a good place for one. But not a half-assed one, but HSR that can and will achieve high speeds to actually make taking the train from Melbourne to Sydney worth it over air travel.


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## zoomwhoosh (Jun 22, 2012)

I'm a bit disappointed by several things that Aecom have done, or overlooked.

One is their estimates of costings, particularly tunnels, has not had much effort put into it. They seem to be picking numbers they feel comfortable won't be exceeded, and then particularly in the case of tunnels, citing examples they feel make the case. But the examples chosen are to say the least, problematic.

There's not first principles approach to costing based on real engineering measures - the use of steel, concrete energy etc. The process deserves a good hard look from a dedicated engineering consultancy given the task of looking at the process of construction in detail and coming up with better ways to be more cost effective.

When I did get on the phone to Aecom the one guy there I did manage to talk with did admit to me a few things. One of them was that the cost of tunneling (per Km) should benefit from economies of scale, so their estimates could be high.

In case you're wondering, Aecom are the people who the government have gotten to do the Phase I study, and are now doing the Phase II. Personally I would have chosen Arup. Compare Aecom's efforts to say the study done by Arup on the HS2 project in the UK and you'll see a world of difference in attention to detail.


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## zoomwhoosh (Jun 22, 2012)

zoomwhoosh said:


> I'm a bit disappointed by several things that Aecom have done, or overlooked.


A major omission occurred in the Phase I study. I'll explain how it came about. Aecom has a set of assumptions that they simply follow through to conclusions without revisiting the assumptions. 

One of those is that if they were to include Wollongong then it would have to be included as a through stop between Sydney and Canberra.

No thought at all was given to the alternative option of connecting Wollongong via a spur line. And when you think about it, its a much more sensible approach.

Instead of descending the escarpment into Wollongong to get to Wollongong, and then ascending afterwards, you only need to deal with the escarpment once. 

The best route would be a spur line connecting with the main line south of Campbelltown. It would then travel over the relatively flat escarpment, then descent through a tunnel (about 14Km) into Wollongong.

You could easily connect it with the existing rail line and use the existing (albeit upgraded) station. 

You could even run high speed trains on the conventional track collecting passengers from stops north of Wollongong. 

This entire solution has gotten ignored because in the first instance Aecom simply ignored the possibility of a spur line.

What's even stranger is that they did use the idea of a spur line for Canberra, and for Newcastle apparently.

Since the report came out there's been public meetings where the representative from the Department of Infrastructure has told people only about the options considered by Aecom. This is where process goes horribly wrong.

I've written to the Department and they've not even had the courtesy of a response. I've also taken this up with the sorts of people who you'd think would have a keen interest. Like the Regional development people from Wollongong, and the media there. 

No one has taken the least interest.

What does it take, and who do you need to call to find someone who will listen?


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2014/...speed-rail-system-could-be-delivered-by-2025/
> 
> *Australia’s east coast high-speed rail system could be delivered by 2025*
> 10 APR, 2014
> ...


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## ramakrishna1984 (Jun 21, 2013)

The Victoria government in Australia has awarded a design and construction contract to Ducon for a *new railway station in Epsom*. The government has invested around $7.76m to build a new station at Epsom and make improvements to infrastructure at Eaglehawk to facilitate an increase in services to the station.


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## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

How is that related to HSR?


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

It's not. Please keep information in the relevant threads. Thanks!


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## IanCleverly (Nov 24, 2010)

An assisted study into a 'Zero Carbon' Australia has issued a report into a possible High-speed rail service in Australia (Ties in with post #45)



Beyond Zero Emissions said:


> Zero Carbon Australia High Speed Rail report
> 
> Our high-speed rail research director Gerard Drew will speak alongside leading rail experts and political leaders. Guest speakers include Brian Nye (CEO, Australasian Railway Association), Geoff Kettle (Mayor of Goulburn), Phillipp Bergeron (DLR German Aerospace Centre), Phil Potterton (GHD), Jean Jammet (SYSTRA), and John Black (Emeritus Professor, Transport, UNSW).
> 
> ...


If you love your pdf's for the full report, you can get it from the link in the quote.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Rail Journal:



> www.railjournal.com/index.php/austr...gh-speed-still-on-the-agenda.html?channel=541
> 
> *Australian high-speed still on the agenda*
> Thursday, August 21, 2014
> ...


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

It would be good if this offer from a historically safe and successful system managed to spur the pols into action for once.


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## Drunkill (Jul 31, 2004)

It would be, sadly it won't happen for a long time yet.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-half-of-government-estimate.html?channel=542
> 
> *Australian HS costs "half government estimate"*
> Tuesday, October 28, 2014
> ...


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## Juanpabloangel (Jun 7, 2015)

Melbourne city- mel tullmarine airport- canberra- sydney airport- newcastle- gold coast- brisbane would be ideal. I guess the first step ought to be one which doesnt have weighty civil engineering, ie crossing the mountains, but a long enough journey to get up to full speed. Sydney to Newcastle perhaps.


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## I(L)WTC (Jan 30, 2010)

63 Billion dollars costs the Sydney - Melbourne HSL?  it's so much


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## transman (Oct 23, 2008)

the problem of a liberal or labour government building a HSR network in Australia is it will be owned and operated by the private sector. HSR should be a public asset.


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## ver89ritu (Jun 9, 2015)

yes they are going in good speed


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ure-for-melbourne-sydney-hsr.html?channel=541
> 
> *Consortium proposes value capture for Melbourne - Sydney HSR*
> Tuesday, July 19, 2016
> ...


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## Short (Dec 16, 2015)

In a separate private initiative, we have proposal #34,560,707 for HSR in Australia. This is for a regional high speed commuter network centred on Sydney that will also handle freight from the coal and steel area south of Sydney near Wollongong. However it is being put forward as a first step of a larger network connecting to Canberra and Melbourne.



> Fast rail link from Campbelltown to Wollongong moves closer
> _ABC Illawarra
> By Emily Laurence_
> 28th November 2016
> ...


For many people like myself who live in NSW, Australia, the N, S, and W does not mean New South Wales but are jokingly referred to as meaning Newcastle, Sydney & Wollongong, everything outside of these three main cities does not matter. So it is not surprising to see a project concentrating on these cities alone. 

As for it's chances of success, it is anybodies guess? I just hope the separate proposals do not detract from each other and a more comprehensive state wide HSR gets the go ahead.


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## mw123 (Oct 23, 2009)

*Fast rail network to transform NSW*

The NSW Government will start work on a fast rail network in the next term of government, linking regional centres to each other and Sydney, significantly slashing travel times across the State.

Four potential routes have already been identified and High Speed Rail expert Professor Andrew McNaughton has now been appointed to confirm the most appropriate routes, train speeds and station locations.

The four routes identified by the Government are within 300 kilometres from Sydney:


Northern Route including the Central Coast and Newcastle.
Southern Inland Route including Goulburn and Canberra.
Western Route including Lithgow, Bathurst and Orange / Parkes.
Southern Coastal Route including Wollongong and Nowra.

_www.nsw.gov.au/fastrail_


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