# ARGENTINA | High Speed Rail



## AR1182 (Jan 10, 2006)

*TAVE High-Speed rail project 
BUENOS AIRES-ROSARIO-CORDOBA *

After announcing their proposal on 26 April 2006, the Argentine government initiated a tender process to receive bids for a 710 Km High-Speed Train from Buenos Aires to Cordoba, via Rosario. The turnkey project, including the new railway line itself in all its elements (track, signalling, electrification, stations, depots, etc.), rolling stock and 5 and 10 year maintenance of infrastructure and rolling stock, respectively, has been expected to cost 1.35 billion dollars.










The bidding process ended up with just one bidder, Veloxia, a joint-venture of Alstom (France), Isolux Corsan (Spain), Emepa and Iecsa (Argentina). Earlier, Siemens (Germany) and CAF (Spain), together with their respective national and foreign partners, had abandoned the competition because of financing problems and lack of time.

Having received the authority's technical approval, Veloxia has made public on 27 April the economic offer, putting a price-tag of just 1.32 billion dollars on their proposal. The government will now take 45 to 60 days to analyze the offer such as to finally decide whether it will go ahead.










*Main infrastructure characteristics:*

The line would use standard gauge (1.435 mm) and be restricted to passenger trains. The proposal calls for a top speed of 300 to 320 Km/h (except in urban areas, where it will be limited to 160 Km/h), and electrified at 25 Kv 50 Hz. A double track is required for Buenos Aires-Rosario, while Rosario-Cordoba would be single track due to lower traffic, though space would be provided for a future second track. A few level-crossings might be necessary in urban areas, in which case speed would be restricted to a maximum of 160 Km/h. The projected track is mostly parallel to existing railway lines, but would share its track with the Ferrovías suburban line to enter Buenos Aires, which would thereby benefit from the overhead electrification. ERTMS Level 2 has been chosen as the main signalling system.

*Stations:*

Retiro (in Buenos Aires), Rosario Oeste and Córdoba-Mitre would be the main stations along the line, although some trains are also expected to stop at San Nicolás de los Arroyos (120,000 inhabitants) between Buenos Aires and Rosario, and at Marcos Juarez, Bell Ville and Villa Maria between Rosario and Cordoba.










*Rolling stock:*

Veloxia has offered a fleet of double-decker trains designed for commercial speeds of up to 320 Km/h, based on the French TGV-Duplex. Each unit would carry about 520 passengers in two classes, although it will be feasible to couple two units in case of stronger demand. One of the eight carriages would house a cafeteria.

*Demand and service proposals:*

An initial demand of 4.5 million passengers per year has been calculated for Buenos Aires-Rosario, another million for Rosario-Córdoba. A minimum of nine daily services between Buenos Aires (14 million inhabitants) and Rosario (1,1 million) are planned to satisfy this demand, and at least four of them would then continue to Cordoba (1,4 million). The 310 Km between Buenos Aires and Rosario are expected to be covered in 85 to 90 minutes, while Rosario-Cordoba (400 Km) would take another 90 to 95 minutes.


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## Insane alex (Aug 24, 2004)

Nice! I love the train, very nice design!


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## balamir (May 26, 2006)

nice , good job argentina


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## AR1182 (Jan 10, 2006)

Alstom Press Release

Encouraged by the results of this tender, the Secretary of Transport announced the launch within the next two months of a similar bidding process, this time for a high-speed train from Buenos Aires to Mar del Plata. They had initially intended to upgrade the existing railway line to Mar del Plata for lower speeds, but because of the flat terrain the costs of new high-speed line are considered to be very attractive.


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## tricolor87 (Jan 10, 2007)

> Originally Posted by Le Figaro
> 
> L'Argentine prête à monter dans le TGV
> 
> ...



http://www.lefigaro.fr/actubourse/20...ns_le_tgv.html


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## PotatoGuy (May 10, 2005)

Felicidades Argentina


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## sergiogabrielm (Mar 31, 2007)

argentina don´t need hig speed NOW! ...the argentinians (we) need solutions to problems we have in the suburban sistem of transpot... a lot of people die every day because trains in buienos aires are not secure...are old, ...all our infraestructure is abandoned..all our infraestructure is old...trains are dirty , have technical problems... our government announced tHIs high speed line ....BUT IT IS NOT TRUE! ARGENTINA HASN´T $$$$$$ ..we´re poor and I believe the government is not going to do any......I know


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## tricolor87 (Jan 10, 2007)

^^ ^^ 
you are rude! and you are wrong  
maybe you are living in Spain
don`t worry


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

Wouldn't it have made more sense to have it go from Rosario to Santa Fe - Parana then to Cordoba? Would it have added that much more time to the trip, yet covered more provinces/cities?


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## AR1182 (Jan 10, 2006)

DonQui said:


> Wouldn't it have made more sense to have it go from Rosario to Santa Fe - Parana then to Cordoba? Would it have added that much more time to the trip, yet covered more provinces/cities?


While the Santa Fe/Paraná urban area has a population of about 700.000, greater Cordoba has twice that much. Of course, if the high speed train to Córdoba or just Rosario is built, it would be a logical choice to extend it to Santa Fe at a later stage.



sergiogabrielm said:


> argentina don´t need hig speed NOW! ...the argentinians (we) need solutions to problems we have in the suburban sistem of transpot... a lot of people die every day because trains in buienos aires are not secure...are old, ...all our infraestructure is abandoned..all our infraestructure is old...trains are dirty , have technical problems... our government announced tHIs high speed line ....BUT IT IS NOT TRUE! ARGENTINA HASN´T $$$$$$ ..we´re poor and I believe the government is not going to do any......I know


Investing in intercity rail along Argentina's main domestic corridor shouldn't affect the government's ability to also improve local trains. These are different needs and they should be addressed separetely. Argentina's current fiscal situation is good enough to do this now, even if it's not a rich country.


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## sergiogabrielm (Mar 31, 2007)

hno: jajaja..miren loco..creo que por ahora hay que preocuparse por las lineas del conurbano y restaurar las de larga distancia...asi de atrasados como estamos..asi vamos a seguir lamentablemwnte..por no hacer las cosas a tiempo....no saltemos de locomotoras a vapor a pedir altas velocidad de una...el gobierno argentino siempre hace lo mismo...primero se tiene que ocupar del ganado del conurbano y el resto del pais antes que acer esto..que por ahora parece lejano


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## Trainman Dave (Mar 30, 2007)

sergiogabrielm said:


> hno: jajaja..miren loco..creo que por ahora hay que preocuparse por las lineas del conurbano y restaurar las de larga distancia...asi de atrasados como estamos..asi vamos a seguir lamentablemwnte..por no hacer las cosas a tiempo....no saltemos de locomotoras a vapor a pedir altas velocidad de una...el gobierno argentino siempre hace lo mismo...primero se tiene que ocupar del ganado del conurbano y el resto del pais antes que acer esto..que por ahora parece lejano


Could someone translate?


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## AR1182 (Jan 10, 2006)

Trainman Dave said:


> Could someone translate?


Actually he just repeated what he had said earlier in this thread: that the government shouldn't invest in modern interurban passenger trains until the problems in the suburban rail network of Buenos Aires had been sorted out.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Good to see this ... my impression was that passenger rail transport in latin America wasn't exactly booming.


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## AR1182 (Jan 10, 2006)

Yardmaster said:


> Good to see this ... my impression was that passenger rail transport in latin America wasn't exactly booming.


It's still quite bad in Argentina, even after a long and extensive privatization process during the last decade, which actually saw most inter-urban services dissapear. Strangely, the state is now paying almost as much subsidies to the private railway companies as they did fifteen years ago to the state-owned railway company, even though the former didn't have to keep the latter's extensive long-distance network.


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

Excellent looking project, could the line eventually be extended to Mendoza/Santiago de Chile/Valparaiso or are the mountains too big to make this practical?


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## Sergu (Jul 8, 2005)

The project is very interesting but making a good underground and urban transport in Buenos Aires is very very necessary, because Buenos Aires has a lot of inhabitants and they need to move with freedom.


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## AR1182 (Jan 10, 2006)

Jonesy55 said:


> Excellent looking project, could the line eventually be extended to Mendoza/Santiago de Chile/Valparaiso or are the mountains too big to make this practical?


In fact a few months ago the government announced the return of passenger trains between Buenos Aires and Mendoza, a project which is supposed to include upgrading of the current tracks for up to 160 Km/h. But even though using the high-speed line between Buenos Aires and Villa María (south of Córdoba) would have been an interesting option (at least in my opinion), it seems they prefered the San Martín Railway, probably because it's much more direct. Anyway, they are still not done with the planning so let's see what they come up with in the end.

A connection between Mendoza and Santiago or Valparaíso probably wouldn't make much sense for passenger service. There's a project for a freight railway, but they're having a hard time finding bidders.


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## yesiwatchbigbrother (May 22, 2007)

Jonesy55 said:


> Excellent looking project, could the line eventually be extended to Mendoza/Santiago de Chile/Valparaiso or are the mountains too big to make this practical?


I think it would be better or easier extended first to the Uruguayan capital, Monteviveo, because is nearer from Buenos Aires (actually only 3 hours, nearer than Rosario) .


Then it would be better the extension to Mendoza and then to Santiago (what I don't know how difficult it would be because of the mountains, and about how high the mountains are I would say very high, many of them -including the Aconcagua, the higest in the Americas- are over 6000m).

For now the only possible city to include in a second part is Mar del Plata if I'm not mistaken (or was it Bahia Blanca?), that is the largest city with coast over the Atlantic sea and its a big summer destination, very touristic.


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## yesiwatchbigbrother (May 22, 2007)

Sergu said:


> The project is very interesting but making a good underground and urban transport in Buenos Aires is very very necessary, because Buenos Aires has a lot of inhabitants and they need to move with freedom.



The subway system is having three new lines between this two years and is quite ok, i would make it a couple of changes, but i travel everyday and personally I don't have problems with the service, quite efficient imo. But three new lines are ok, i think the last one had been added like 15 or 20 years ago! (Well I don't know if any Argie knows send me a PM, I don't want to change the subject of thi thread).


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## Guest (May 29, 2007)

Very good, going to be strange having a single track HSL though.


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## Trainman Dave (Mar 30, 2007)

Salif said:


> Very good, going to be strange having a single track HSL though.


One of the options requested in the RFP was for diesel trains running between Rosario and Cordoba. It would appear that Veloxia does not expect to deliver that option.


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## AR1182 (Jan 10, 2006)

No news except this scale model of the planned high-speed units, which was presented today in Rosario.



la bestia kuit said:


> bueno loco BASTA!!!!
> 
> no puede ser que YO me tenga que poner a investigar!!!!
> 
> ...


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## Teto Medina (May 16, 2006)

Thanks for posting those pics AR... I can only drool when I see that scale model.

Couldn´t be happier with the proyect´s progress... at the very beginning just a few dreamers thought this would be possible in a country that has seen it´s railway network been overrun by decay for decades.

This will not only affect Argentina´s movility system, but might also be a technology plattform from where the high speed system could be taken for example by other latinamerican countries (not far ago, I read Brazil was considering a high speed line between it´s two major cities). 

Not to mention Alstom´s intrest in the concretion of this proyect, for whose this will mean being seen as the provider of the first great technologycal leap in rail movility in Latinamerica.

If everythings goes as planned we´ll have news in very few days. 

Thanks for keeping up kay:


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Good to see something happening in Argentina re. rail transport.


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## CAFE DE LA CIUDAD (Mar 22, 2007)

The proposed Buenos Aires-Rosario-Cordoba high speed rail by no means would be unjustified as many folk argue, it would serve as a "jump start" for witch the system badly in need of repair needs, it would truly serve as a "trampoline" for the rest of the lines that urgently need to catch up! kay: Caƒé










_Most likely candidate on a "fertile Pampas" looking backdrop._
Image courtesy of AR1182


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## CAFE DE LA CIUDAD (Mar 22, 2007)

_Here the latest news from_ www.railwaygazette.com @ http://www.railwaygazette.com/features_view/article/2007/08/7660/cobra_offers_high_speed_future.html


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## tricolor87 (Jan 10, 2007)

*ACUERDO ENTRE EL GOBIERNO, ALSTOM Y EL BANCO SOCIETE GENERALE*

Financiarán el tren bala con la garantía de un bono del Estado a 15 años

El banco proveerá los fondos para las obras. El tramo hasta Rosario demandará 4 años.

Con cierta demora respecto de los plazos que se barajaron inicialmente, el Gobierno logró cerrar la "estructura financiera" para la construcción del "tren de alta velocidad" que unirá Retiro con Rosario y Córdoba.

Tras más de dos meses de intensas negociaciones; los funcionarios nacionales, el consorcio que lidera la empresa francesa Alstom y el banco Societé Générale acordaron los principales lineamientos del "esquema crediticio y financiero" que se instrumentará para cubrir cerca del 60% del costo total del tren bala.

La crisis financiera internacional que sacude a los mercados y el conflicto que el país mantiene con los bonistas que no aceptaron el canje de la deuda llevaron a la administración kirchnerista a diseñar un atípico modelo de financiación, que se basa en la recepción de un crédito privado que tendrá como garantía la emisión de un bono del Estado.

La próxima semana se aprobará por decreto la "adjudicación" de las obras al grupo constructor y se fijará un plazo de 40 días para redactar y firmar la "letra chica" del convenio financiero y el contrato definitivo de las obras.

De acuerdo con los datos obtenidos por Clarín, las bases del acuerdo que alcanzaron las partes involucradas en el megaproyecto son las siguientes:

# El banco le otorgará al Estado un préstamo que rondará los US$ 1.700 millones. Será a 15 años de plazo, con siete años de gracia y con una tasa de interés inicial del orden del 10% anual.

# Como garantía de pago, el Gobierno el entregará al banco un bono que se emitirá bajo las mismas condiciones del crédito.

# El préstamo tendrá como destino específico la construcción del "tren bala" y los desembolsos irán directamente al grupo constructor a medida que vaya presentando los certificados de las distintas etapas de la obra y concrete la entrega de las formaciones ferroviarias.

El esquema financiero -que los funcionarios quieren suscribir antes de las elecciones del 28 de octubre- se podrá mejorar una vez que el país llegue a un acuerdo para saldar la deuda con el "Club de París" que integran las principales naciones desarrolladas, entres las cuales se encuentra Francia, la patria de Alstom y el Societé Générale. Según indicaron los especialistas que siguen de cerca la negociación del "tren bala", a los dos años del levantamiento del default con el "Club de París", el gobierno francés estaría en condiciones de otorgar nuevos créditos para cubrir la totalidad del proyecto o ampliar la financiación actual de 15 a 30 años.

Una vez que se firmen el convenio financiero y el contrato integral del proyecto, el Gobierno tendrá que pagar un anticipo del 8% del total de las obras.

Por su parte, el consorcio que lidera Alstom -y que lleva como socias a la española Isolux y a las locales Emepa e Iecsa- deberá empezar con los primeros movimientos de tierra mientras realiza los estudios de ingeniería y de impacto ambiental y la propuesta ejecutiva de la obra.

Esas tareas demandarán entre 8 y 10 meses, y cuando se concluyan se firmará el "acta de inicio de las obras". Desde ese momento, el consorcio tendrá 36 meses para terminar el corredor de alta velocidad a Rosario y 12 meses más para llegar con tren bala a la capital de Córdoba.

http://www.clarin.com/diario/2007/09...is/p-01801.htm


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## [email protected] (May 7, 2007)

The Shinkansen has less trouble than TGV. 
But construction expense is expensive because a motor is installed in all vehicles.

Tokaido Shinkansen.


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## allan_dude (Apr 14, 2005)

Is this the 1st real high speed line in the Americas?


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## virgule82 (Apr 9, 2007)

allan_dude said:


> Is this the 1st real high speed line in the Americas?


It is


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

Nice job, Argentina. I've been gathering you have your own (commendable) show happening there in your country.


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## allan_dude (Apr 14, 2005)

virgule82 said:


> allan_dude said:
> 
> 
> > Is this the 1st real high speed line in the Americas?
> ...


Cool! Hope the Argentinian line becomes the standard for the Americas, so when the time comes that other neighboring countries will have their own HSL, they could be interconnected like in Europe.


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## CharlieP (Sep 12, 2002)

allan_dude said:


> Cool! Hope the Argentinian line becomes the standard for the Americas, so when the time comes that other neighboring countries will have their own HSL, they could be interconnected like in Europe.


Well I'd be staggered if they didn't use standard gauge - every other HSL is, even in countries that hadn't used it before.


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## AR1182 (Jan 10, 2006)

CharlieP said:


> Well I'd be staggered if they didn't use standard gauge - every other HSL is, even in countries that hadn't used it before.


It seems that besides commonality there are also technical reasons for the use of standard gauge for high-speed trains.


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## CAFE DE LA CIUDAD (Mar 22, 2007)

*Come on boys*

Come on boys, there's only one "standard" in high speed rail, what are you talking about, OK, maybe a new standard could be developed where eight row seating with two alleys could be developed, but please, the whole world is listening! Caƒé de la Ciudad


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## AR1182 (Jan 10, 2006)

CAFE DE LA CIUDAD said:


> Come on boys, there's only one "standard" in high speed rail, what are you talking about, OK, maybe a new standard could be developed where eight row seating with two alleys could be developed, but please, the whole world is listening! Caƒé de la Ciudad


We were referring to track gauge. "Standard gauge" is what we call "trocha media", or 1,435 mm between rails. The mayority of Argentine railway lines use broad gauge, though there's also a huge narrow gauge network.


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## zelterheist (Feb 27, 2006)

good for argentina. do many argentinians live in spain?


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## [email protected] (Jan 17, 2004)

Nice, but they should extend it in both directions to Santiago and Montevideo.


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## -Corey- (Jul 8, 2005)

allan_dude said:


> Is this the 1st real high speed line in the Americas?


If it gets built.. The uS also is planning a high speed rail (california).


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## Chilenofuturista (May 24, 2005)

^^

Great map! I love this project, I can't wait for it to commence. Argentinian forumers, please keep us updated as much as you can about this wonderful project! :yes:


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## Bates (Apr 29, 2007)

Surprise!



> High Speed Passenger Rail Comes to the Americas
> The contracts have been signed, and the first high-speed railway in the Americas will be built very soon - but not where you're thinking. Argentina's new President Christina Kirchner, wife of former President Nestor Kirchner, signed the papers last month with a consortium led by French company Alstom to connect the country's major cities by high-speed rail.
> 
> The $1.35 billion contract calls for a 440 mile (710 km) high-speed rail corridor to connect Buenos Aires with Rosario and Cordoba. A second line will connect Buenos Aires with Mar del Plata in the future. The train will cut down travel time between Buenos Aires and Cordoba from fourteen hours today to a mere three hours a couple years from now.
> ...














> The Buenos Aires–Rosario–Córdoba high-speed railway (Tren de Alta Velocidad –TAVe) is a project that will, according to its proponents, link the Argentine cities of Buenos Aires, Rosario and Córdoba through a 710 kilometers (441 mi) high-speed rail network. The plan, announced by President Néstor Kirchner during a press conference at the Casa Rosada on 26 April 2006, will be the first in Argentina and the Americas operating at up to 320 km/h (200 mph).
> Buenos Aires and its metropolitan area has a population of more than 12 million, almost one third of the national total. It is the economic and political center of Argentina, and its main international entry point.
> 
> Rosario, located about 286 kilometers (178 mi) north-northwest, is the third-largest city and a major port, with a metropolitan population over 1.6 million. It is part of the agricultural and industrial core of the littoral region.
> ...


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## AR1182 (Jan 10, 2006)

Already posted:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=468204

Also be carefull with the Wikipedia article because it's not that accurate.


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## goschio (Dec 2, 2002)

Wonderful project. Not long and Argentina will be fully developed country.


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## Ian (Nov 26, 2006)

*Argentina finalises with Alstom-led consortium the contract to supply the first very high speed line in America*

Alstom.com

_The President of Argentine Republic, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, in presence of Patrick Kron, Chairman & CEO of Alstom, has signed on 29 April 2008 a contract with Alstom and its partners Iecsa, Isolux Corsan and Emepa*, for the construction of the first very high speed link in America, between Buenos Aires, Rosario and Córdoba. This signature follows the adjudication which took place on 16 January 2008. Alstom’s share of this contract, which includes in particular the management of the project, rolling stock and signalling, is valued at around €1.1 billion. The contract will become effective subject to the implementation of the financing, which should take place in the coming months._


The line will link Buenos Aires and Córdoba, 710 km apart, in three hours instead of the fourteen hours the journey takes today. It will be served by eight double deck very high speed trains, each with a capacity of 509 passengers, at speeds of up to 320 kph. The construction of the line will be divided in two parts: Buenos Aires-Rosario and Rosario-Córdoba part. Once the basic design is validated, the construction works are scheduled to last 4 years. 

This turnkey project will involve the construction of the infrastructure, including seven stations, electrification, signalling (ERTMS level 2), the supply of rolling stock and maintenance. The trains will be manufactured at Alstom’s French plants and assembled at the Alstom site at La Plata, in the province of Buenos Aires, and in Rio Tercero, in the province of Cordoba. Apart from supplying rolling stock, Alstom will be in charge of signalling, telecommunications, part of track works, engineering and management of the turnkey project. Iecsa will be responsible for the civil engineering with Isolux Corsan, who will also supply the electrification. Emepa will participate with Alstom and Iecsa to the construction of the tracks. The project will be financed by the French bank Natixis. 

“The Buenos Aires-Rosario-Córdoba line constitutes the largest very high speed rail project outside Europe since the KTX project in Korea. It represents an essential component in the revival of railways in Argentina, which will have a major impact on the economic development of the region. Thanks to this contract, Alstom confirms it intends to be a key player in the expansion of very high speed trains in the many countries where their implementation is decided or contemplated, by taking advantage of its technical and commercial leadership”, underlines Patrick Kron, Chairman and CEO of Alstom. 

This order confirms Alstom’s leadership in very high speed. Since the launch of the first TGV** in 1981, Alstom has gained unrivalled experience: 70% of the trains in service in the world which travel at more than 300 kph have been built by Alstom. They have covered over 2.8 billion kilometres (6,500 times the distance between the earth and the moon), carried 1.6 billion passengers and achieved two world rail speed records - 515.3 kph in 1990 and 574.8 kph in 2007.


:cheers:... I'm so happy!!!! :banana:


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## priamos (Apr 28, 2008)

*Compromises and extensions*

For those who read Spanish, there's a big discussion of the new high-speed link (COBRA) on the Argentina pages of this forum: 
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=572218

As far as I have understood the link between Buenos Aires and Cordoba is a bit of a "bastard" in the sense that it's only dedicated high speed track until Rosario. Between Rosario and Cordoba it will be single track with maximum speed limited to 160 km/h. (This may have less to do with the track than with signalling: 160 is the limit for how fast one can drive with conventional signal equipment.) 

On the plus-side, plans for a second high speed line linking Buenos Aires with Mar del Plata are already far advanced...


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## Ian (Nov 26, 2006)

priamos said:


> As far as I have understood the link between Buenos Aires and Cordoba is a bit of a "bastard" in the sense that it's only dedicated high speed track until Rosario. Between Rosario and Cordoba it will be single track with maximum speed limited to 160 km/h. (This may have less to do with the track than with signalling: 160 is the limit for how fast one can drive with conventional signal equipment.)...


No, you are wrong, it's all high speed...


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## priamos (Apr 28, 2008)

Ian said:


> No, you are wrong, it's all high speed...


I may have been wrong about the 160 km/h, but Rosario-Cordoba will definitely be the world's first high-speed single track: 
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_...l.html?tx_ttnews[backPid]=83&cHash=4a596768fe

Come to think, my misunderstanding is probably due to an error by French railway magazine La Vie du Rail: they were ironicising over the "speed limits" on a high speed line, which could have referred to the 160 km/h speed limit in the urban areas of Rosario. This runs counter to French practices where all agglomerations can be passed at an undiminished 300 km/h - but is no different from neighbouring Germany where much of the gains on the high speed rails are subsequently squandered on the commuter tracks of the cities that are passed through.


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## elfabyanos (Jun 18, 2006)

priamos said:


> This runs counter to French practices where all agglomerations can be passed at an undiminished 300 km/h - but is no different from neighbouring Germany where much of the gains on the high speed rails are subsequently squandered on the commuter tracks of the cities that are passed through.


Apart from through Lille station. You only need high speed running through the cities if the trains don't stop, hence why they like by-passes in France because they run trains all over the place and many skip important places. Maybe Rosario is foreseen as always being called at, and high speed running through/bypassing the city is an unecessary cost.


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## priamos (Apr 28, 2008)

elfabyanos said:


> Apart from through Lille station. You only need high speed running through the cities if the trains don't stop, hence why they like by-passes in France because they run trains all over the place and many skip important places. Maybe Rosario is foreseen as always being called at, and high speed running through/bypassing the city is an unecessary cost.


I guess I have to disagree on two counts: first, even if trains do stop it makes a heck of a difference whether or not they have to borrow the local commuting tracks. Second, Lille is not an exception. Both the Paris-London and the Paris-Brussels lines bypass Lille through separate traces - one south of the city, the other east of the city. SOME trains pass via the centre of town, sure, but none have to.


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## Messi (Nov 18, 2007)

Inuya5ha said:


> As a resident from Argentina, I'd like to point out that this project makes no sense at all, because these kind of trains should be built only in countries with a proper railway system.
> 
> Our railway system has been disassembled gradually in the 90's, after the privatization process that gave away the trains for free to the private operators. Entire towns in the inner provinces are now abandoned or have disappeared because the train no longer reaches those places.
> 
> ...



What kind of argument is that? "Our trains and lines suck so don't build anything new"?! How do you want to improve things if you don't invest in new technologies? This line may be a milestone for the Argentinian railways.
Btw I don't think that infrastructure is that bad in Argentina (I am not Argentinian but Turkish. I just lived Argentina for several months last year) especially in these three cities Bs.As, Rosaria and Cordoba which are Argentina's most important cities and need to be connected to eachother. I mean you don't need to be a professor in order to be able to foresee the postive result of this line!


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## Messi (Nov 18, 2007)

Btw is it for sure that the line will be completed in 2012? Maybe next time I visit Argentina I can take this train although cama and super cama buses weren't that bad either


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## AR1182 (Jan 10, 2006)

priamos said:


> I may have been wrong about the 160 km/h, but Rosario-Cordoba will definitely be the world's first high-speed single track:
> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_...l.html?tx_ttnews[backPid]=83&cHash=4a596768fe


Looks like the whole Buenos Aires-Córdoba line will be single track, except for the first 54 kilometres (Retiro-Villa Rosa, to be shared with existing suburban trains), and another 55 km section somewhere between Buenos Aires and Rosario, which would allow "dynamic" crossings. They did this to reduce costs as much as possible and because the planned service patterns won't require a double track throughout. In addition there will be three conventional crossing loops between Buenos Aires and Rosario and another five between Rosario and Córdoba.



Argentinian Messi said:


> Btw is it for sure that the line will be completed in 2012?


It seems at least Buenos Aires-Rosario would be in service by 2012.


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## priamos (Apr 28, 2008)

AR1182 said:


> Looks like the whole Buenos Aires-Córdoba line will be single track, except for the first 54 kilometres (Retiro-Villa Rosa, to be shared with existing suburban trains), and another 55 km section somewhere between Buenos Aires and Rosario, which would allow "dynamic" crossings. They did this to reduce costs as much as possible and because the planned service patterns won't require a double track throughout. In addition there will be three conventional crossing loops between Buenos Aires and Rosario and another five between Rosario and Córdoba.


In that case I hope the Argentine state railwayws have good scedule planners! It's actually quite ironic: they based themselves on TGV technology which, while excellent for full-fledged "French" solutions, is the one implying the slowest accelerations and decelerations in the highspeed business (OK, except for the Italian ETR). They'll lose enourmous amounts of time if one of those has to wait at a crossing loop for a train in the opposite direction.


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## elfabyanos (Jun 18, 2006)

priamos said:


> I guess I have to disagree on two counts: first, even if trains do stop it makes a heck of a difference whether or not they have to borrow the local commuting tracks. Second, Lille is not an exception. Both the Paris-London and the Paris-Brussels lines bypass Lille through separate traces - one south of the city, the other east of the city. SOME trains pass via the centre of town, sure, but none have to.


First count - yes it does make a difference but the cost of building a high speed route through a city for trains that are going to stop anyway is unlikely to be justified.

Second count - All trains from London go directly through Lille station on their way to Paris or Brussels. Only trains on the Paris - Brussels route can bypass the city to the south. Have a look at the map http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/lille-area/lille-area.gif


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## priamos (Apr 28, 2008)

elfabyanos said:


> All trains from London go directly through Lille station on their way to Paris or Brussels. Only trains on the Paris - Brussels route can bypass the city to the south.


You're quite right: my reference to "south" was erroneous. Quite simply I forgot to check the facts. However, you are mistaken in saying that all trains from London go directly through Lille station. I frequently travel on this route and I can assure you that "Lille Europe" station is normally visited only by Eurostars that make a stop there. From your map I form the opinion that the non-stop trains apparently skate the city centre on the eastern and northern sides.


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## elfabyanos (Jun 18, 2006)

From the map the LGV quite clearly goes through Lille Europe, labelled as "E". The route that skirts the north of the city is an old and slow local line. It's got level crossings on it! Even if the trains had to slow to a crawl through Lille Europe it would still be faster than going round it on this old line.

The line through Lille Europe station is part of the LGV, and has a high through running speed of approximately 200km/h, I have the RFF speed map on another pc which I can find later. Passing it at speed and that it is sort of underground and therefore dark and at the end of a tunnel is the only explanation I can think of as to why you haven't noticed the station on your journeys, I certainly did when I went through.


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## AR1182 (Jan 10, 2006)

priamos said:


> In that case I hope the Argentine state railwayws have good scedule planners! It's actually quite ironic: they based themselves on TGV technology which, while excellent for full-fledged "French" solutions, is the one implying the slowest  accelerations and decelerations in the highspeed business (OK, except for the Italian ETR). They'll lose enourmous amounts of time if one of those has to wait at a crossing loop for a train in the opposite direction.


I guess those crossing loops will be unnecessary in regular service since traffic won't be that dense. The 55 km double track section between Buenos Aires and Rosario should allow intervals of about 90 minutes between trains in each direction, enough for the planned nine trains per day. One of the crossing trains might have to decelerate from 320 km/h to 220 km/h when entering and exiting the double track section, but that's it. 

Rosario-Córdoba would see just four trains per day, so probably there won't be any regular crossings. Of course as soon as demand increases they will have to tighten the schedules, operate double-units and eventually expand double track sections.


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## dösanhoro (Jun 24, 2006)

Either way they need to do both. Fix the local trains and build this one. 

What is the current typical mode of transit between these cities? Bus? slower trains? Any information how much the tickets will cost compared to what is now available?


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## pablozar (Sep 4, 2005)

^^ There are no estimations still about the ticket prices, basically 'cause it's too soon to effectively calculate the operational costs. The federal transport secretary said the fare would be placed between the airplane and bus fares, about u$ 40 per pax in present terms for the first track. But considerate the fact that both airplane and bus fares are directly or indirectly subsidized and that it’s not a sustainable fiscal policy in time, then fares could rise in future to those when the service come active, making it potentially less subsidies-dependant than it would be today. At the moment the fare remains a futurology matter.

The typical mode between the first two cities (Buenos Aires and Rosario, 305 km) are bus and car (much less the airplane due to the scarce distance). Railway service is pretty poor at this time and I don’t think the government will spend to potentiate the old link. The second track between Rosario and Cordoba, 400 km length, is served both by bus and airplane.


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