# The population of these cities correct??



## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

The 18million metropolitan area around London is as described by London's governing body. At this stage it is the only official metropolitan area described by any U.K. governing body.

references here: http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/strategies/sds/london_plan/lon_plan_all.pdf

here: http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/strategies/sds/draft_london_plan/dlp_ch1.pdf

or here: http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/strategies/sds/london_plan/lon_plan_1.pdf

It doesn't include all of the South East, but part of the South East & East. It covers quite a large area, but considerbly less than say the New York C.M.S.A.

The Paris figure is correct. It is the INSEE government definition of a metropolitan area, and is so far the only National metropolitan statistic in Europe that uses commuter percentages as one of the basis of the demographic. This is called "aire urbaine" in France (not to be confused with unité urbaine which is Urban Area)

If the same procedure was used for London, based on the commuter percentages of 10% (total population) into adjoining area (as compared to the U.S. method of 25% working population into adjoining county's) then it has been worked out that London's metro would be 17million.

Moscow's metro population is probably a lot larger than 11.8. There are loads of problems there counting all the masses of people that have migrated to the capital in the last few years - it is rumoured to be as high as 15million these days.


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## GM (Feb 29, 2004)

Justme said:


> The Paris figure is correct. It is the INSEE government definition of a metropolitan area, and is so far the only National metropolitan statistic in Europe that uses commuter percentages as one of the basis of the demographic. This is called "aire urbaine" in France (not to be confused with unité urbaine which is Urban Area)
> 
> If the same procedure was used for London, *based on the commuter percentages of 10% (total population) into adjoining area* (as compared to the U.S. method of 25% working population into adjoining county's) then it has been worked out that London's metro would be 17million.


You must mean 40 %, don't you ?
Metropolitan area in France (aka aire urbaine) are based on commuter percentages of 40 %, and not 10 %.


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

gruber said:


> In EUorpe something of similar happened in Italy, in Milano, where the city have only 1.4 Millions, but the MA have more than 7 Millions that are for an half part outside the Milano Province (similar to the USA County), and a small number in another Country, in the Canton Ticino, the souther part of Swiss.
> 
> a similar thing happened also with Basel, a city on the French, Swiss and German border and with the MA of Lille/Roubaix in French and Belgie


- Also Zurich Metro includes German parts (Waldshut area)
- Geneva-Lausanne (Metro Leman) icludes big French parts, eg. Annemasse, Evian, Thonex.
- Copenhagen-Malmo is binational as well
- Tornio-Happaranda (SF/S) in a smaller scale
- Calais is included in London Economical Region
- Maastricht has German parts
- Bregenz-St.Margreten


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## GM (Feb 29, 2004)

Kuesel said:


> - Calais is included in London Economical Region


Euh ?
English people who cross the Channel to buy cheaper wine and beer in France really make Calais part of the London Economical Region ?


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

GM said:


> You must mean 40 %, don't you ?
> Metropolitan area in France (aka aire urbaine) are based on commuter percentages of 40 %, and not 10 %.


You could be right, the INSEE documentation I read is all in French, and my French is... well, certainly no where near your brilliant English 

I just reread the INSEE definition, and it does indeed say 40% of resident population either commuting to the central core, or surrounding connected communities. (my best translation)

So, take what I said before about the INSEE adaption of London metropolitan model based on 40%.


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

GM said:


> Euh ?
> English people who cross the Channel to buy cheaper wine and beer in France really make Calais part of the London Economical Region ?


It is certainly not part of London's metro, but there are very close connections to London now. Something like 10,000 people commute to London's metro from the Calais region daily, and it is expected to grow to 30,000 in the next decade or so.

I don't know what term to descibe this area's relationship to London, but "Economic Region" by Kuesel seems to fit.


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

There is indeed a strong commuter scene in Calais and it is the "European Gate to the UK and London". But as you said it's not Metro, it's just economic and commuter area, as South Kent, Brighton etc. The same as Lugano for Milano I would say.


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

Kuesel said:


> - Also Zurich Metro includes German parts (Waldshut area)
> - Geneva-Lausanne (Metro Leman) icludes big French parts, eg. Annemasse, Evian, Thonex.
> - Copenhagen-Malmo is binational as well
> - Tornio-Happaranda (SF/S) in a smaller scale
> ...


Yeap, these are called Euroregions, where a metro may cross a national border. When this happens
Within the Eurozone part of the EU, they operate often as fully standard metropolitan area’s, as not only are there no border control’s, but also with the same currency it is almost possible to not know what country you are in.

E.g. Bregenz in Austria with Lindau (Germany) in the metro (10 minutes away). There is no border (and no sign when traveling by commuter train between them) that you are crossing into another country, the same language, and the same currency.

Strasbourg (France) with Kehl (Germany) are another example, with only the river separating the two urban area’s. If it were not for the language difference, one would never know you are crossing into another country. And the language differences just make the metropolitan area that even more exotic and fascinating. One can shop in a French supermarket, and then walk across the river to shop in a German one, both with totally different foods, but the same currency.

Another interesting bi-polar metro is the Rhein-Maas. This combines Maastricht (Netherlands), Leige (Belgium) and Aachen (Germany) into a tri-nation, tri-city metro area. Three languages, no borders, single currency. Work in Germany, Live in Belgium, and smoke some pot in a cafe for lunch in Maastricht - fantastic!


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## gruber (Jun 11, 2004)

mmmhhh...Many Swiss people of Lugano come everyday to Milano for working, but there are also many people that come here to theatres, restaurants, nightlife...and there are more or less 15/20.000 retired people of Milano that living in Lugano or Ascona or other cities of Canton Ticino.
i think that is an half way between Economic Region and an effectiv MA.
is not only a commuter link!


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## coth (Oct 16, 2003)

City of Moscow.
City Limits: 10,5mln (+ ~800 thous of non registered)
Agglomeration: 13,8mln (+ ~2,5mln of non registered)

non registered is not poor, but illegal immigrants


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

In the Regio Basiliensis there are many Germans now living in Alsace (Taxes) and work in Switzerland or Germany... 

Sorry for forgetting Lindau with Bregenz!

Isn't the Ticino not also the place where the Milanesi go for shopping cheep gazoline? 

Locarno should be in Metro Zurich BTW. I was there two weeks ago - you hear only Züritüütsch  Ascona is - from my experiences - in the hands of the rich Germans... St.Moritz is occupied by Milanesi and Russians... etc. 

This shows that it's very difficult to define metros and economic areas only by spacial means. Time is as important as space - there are for example more people commuting (for work or for leisure) from Basel or Bern to Zurich (and much faster!) than from the areas inbetween. Laax or Locarno are more "Urban Zurich" than for example Suburbs like Bülach or Pfäffikon... :lol:


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

^ year, some places like Switzerland, the Netherlands and Belgium are very difficult to define, as they have multiple cities very close to each other. The same as well with Northern England, and the built up urban area's of North/West Germany.


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

^^ these Euroregions always facinate me. Growing up in Sydney, the very concept that part of your city's metro can be in a different country, yet no more difficult to access than any other part of your metro is quite amazing. Especially the one's with quite different cultures, such as France/Germany.

Another one is Monaco (Monte Carlo) which can be considered part of Nice's metropolitan region.


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

Isn't it officially in Nizza's?

Anyway in Switzerland we have the so-called Midland-corridor. From Geneva to St.Gallen is kind of a urban corridor planned in the 1940s based on the Randstad project in Holland - there should be one big 300km long city in the midlands and the parts left and right of it the green lung and agriculture land of the country. Unfortunalty it didn't work out quite as planned (also because of the concept of the "concentrated decentralization" project by the government) and now there is hardly any land available anymore (even 30 km away from Zurich center you have to pay up to 2000 SFr./m2 of land, 5mio people live on 15% of the country's area where only 30% is arable land!) and we have to import most of our food...


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## gruber (Jun 11, 2004)

I think that Montecarlo is IN the MA of Nice.
Nice city have 339,000, and the MA 888,784 that i think is wide from Menton on the Italian border to Cannes.


"you hear only Züritüütsch..."
my friend of Ascone and Locarno aren't happy of that!!!!


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

I am also not proud of it, believe me! But I think it's true that more than 30% of the Ticino pop is either Swiss Germans or Germans... not included all tourists and daytrippers (like me this time, sorry...) that flood the cities during the warm months.

No wonder anyway with this beauty and clime - these are some pics I took on Brisago (Ascona):


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## gruber (Jun 11, 2004)

i know, i know...my family have a villa on the Lake Maggiore, at very few km from the Swiss border...

but is not everyday good weather!


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

gruber said:


> I think that Montecarlo is IN the MA of Nice.
> Nice city have 339,000, and the MA 888,784 that i think is wide from Menton on the Italian border to Cannes.


Actually, the INSEE Aire urbaine (metropolitan area) of Nice was 933,080 in 1999. It could have reached the 1million mark since then. But I have no idea if the INSEE would consider Monaco as officially part of the metro considering it's in a different country (though without any borders of cause)

It would be interesting to know if the INSEE Aire urbaine crosses national borders.


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## User (May 20, 2005)

gruber said:


> For the Usa Census Boureau in the 2003 LA have 12,829,272 in the Metropolitan Area, and 17,262,730 in the Combined Metropolitan Area.
> California have 35,484,453 (July 2003), so:
> Los Angeles 17,262,730
> San Francisco 7,154,350
> ...


oh shit true, i always had it in my head that las vegas was in cali..dunno why, wow nevada only 2 mil ppl... nevada is like west o, 2 mil ppl and 1.5 live in perth , also cant belive cali is so urban ..


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## GM (Feb 29, 2004)

Justme said:


> Actually, the INSEE Aire urbaine (metropolitan area) of Nice was 933,080 in 1999. It could have reached the 1million mark since then. But I have no idea if the INSEE would consider Monaco as officially part of the metro considering it's in a different country (though without any borders of cause)
> 
> It would be interesting to know if the INSEE Aire urbaine crosses national borders.


I don't think. BTW Monaco has only 32 000 inhabitants so it wouldn't count much in the metro area of Nice.


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

Here is the main metropolitan regions (I think) in France from the INSEE.

Now, please let me know if I'm wrong here, as my French is not that good. But from what I can understand the area's in Black are Urban Area's, and in Red Metropolitan.

here is the list of locations in PDF


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## GM (Feb 29, 2004)

Justme said:


> Here is the main metropolitan regions (I think) in France from the INSEE.
> 
> Now, please let me know if I'm wrong here, as my French is not that good. But from what I can understand the area's in Black are Urban Area's, and in Red Metropolitan.


You are right. The black areas seem to be indeed the urban areas, and the black+red areas correspond to the metroplitan areas.


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

^thanks Nantes. Well, it certainly looks as though the metropolitan area's don't cross national borders in their calculations.


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## gruber (Jun 11, 2004)

In that map Monaco is part of Nice MA.
or...it is so tiny that is not painted on!


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

^ here Monaco could be included, above the map, I included the pdf which had all the cities, and there was a reference to Monaco, but I couldn't be sure if it's included. It certainly should be.

What I can see though is that Kehl and surrounding area, isn't included in Strasbourg's metro, which is really wrong since all that divides the two urban area's is the river. No borders, no customs, same currency.


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## rocky (Apr 20, 2005)

im french and i dont understand those numberS. this map is quite complex


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

the aires urbaines in France include mostly huge areas of countryside regions as well, like the US. Look for example at Bordeaux: it includes half of the biggest forest in Europe  I think it's a very good concept the French have because they really differ between agglomerations per se (in black) and aires urbaines which include the rural periferia - very much after Thünen's and Christaller's concepts


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## neilio (Jan 12, 2005)

[Everywhen] said:


> pop. figures for 2005
> 
> london city 7 421 228 metro 11 327 857
> 
> ...


i think the Toronto population figure is......Waaaayyy off, especially for the city proper


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## I'mBack (Jan 15, 2005)

Justme said:


> What I can see though is that Kehl and surrounding area, isn't included in Strasbourg's metro, which is really wrong since all that divides the two urban area's is the river. No borders, no customs, same currency.


Maybe it's just "not shown" as this map takes in consideration only the French territory; in fact each "urban area" is delimited by a green line, and those areas on the borders are clearly not "closed" completely by the green line; therefore I may suspect the "urban area" goes well over the border 
(Btw, I think Lille is one of the most clear example of "transborder" metro area in Europe, as it extends well over the French border into the Belgium territory)


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## cello1974 (May 20, 2003)

zaqattaq said:


> go to emporis.com and look up the cities


And see, how they're wrong? São Paulo has 11.2 million and more than 19 million in metro. In Turkey, they use the numbers of the vilayetler (provinces) as city figures and the metro areas are, dunno, where they got that data from! Shanghai city has 13.4 million, but the metro, dunno.... :bash:


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## cello1974 (May 20, 2003)

Kuesel said:


> They are quite correct numbers.
> 
> London metro is about 12, 18 is the economic area and 22 is South East England. Moscow I think included now also most of its suburbs outside the ring motorway that was once its border and has 13mio within the city proper (but I am also not sure).
> 
> ...


São Paulo 11.2 million city proper (1,554 km²), metro 19.1 million (7,965 km²), CME Complexo Metropolitano Expandido 32.2 million (42,000 km²) :cheers:


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

Wow, I had the figueres in my head, they were quite close then as it seems 
But DID Sampa surpass the 11mio already?


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

SuomiPoika said:


> London: 7.1 million 14 million in metro.
> Paris: 2.2 million 11.1 million in metro.
> Istanbul: 10 million 12.6 million in metro.(+poor people not registered)
> NYC: 8.1 million 21.8 million in metro(i´m not sure if it´s that much).(+poor people not registered)
> ...


Ok this is my take on it - I don't count CMSA btw as they arent contiguous or even connected sometimes, covering anything up to 21,000 sq km in American cases and larger for Chinese (half of Western Europe could count as one single CMSA otherwise)

1. London 7.4 million city, 12 million metro
2. Paris 10.5 city, 11.5 metro
3. Istanbul 10 million 13 metro
4. NYc 8.1 million, 17 million metro
5. Tokyo 12 million, 28 million metro
6. Moscow 10.3 million, over 12 million metro
7. Shanghai 16 million city, 23 million metro (as of 2003-and growing by 1 -3 million per year) - of officially registered city permit holders that count would be reduced to 13million in the city and 16 million in metro. 
Transients and new residents were not counted before but since 2003 the count has allowed the entry of voluntary registering illegal migrants that have been in the city for over 3 months, hence the dramatic rise showing the truer figure that year.


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## coth (Oct 16, 2003)

^have you read my post?


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## cello1974 (May 20, 2003)

Kuesel said:


> Wow, I had the figueres in my head, they were quite close then as it seems
> But DID Sampa surpass the 11mio already?


Yes, it has. No very much over 11 million, but it passed 11 million.


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## Latin l0cO (Nov 8, 2004)

User said:


> ^ i still dought L.A has half of the californian population, what about san francisco and san diego and las vagas, by the sounds of it seems like the whole total population of california all live in one of these 4 cities.


HAHA Las Vegas isn't even in cali. You obviously aren't use to the term "metro population".


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## SHiRO (Feb 7, 2003)

That map is brilliant justme! Got more? :cheers:


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## Guest (May 23, 2005)

the spliff fairy said:


> 1. London 7.4 million city, 12 million metro


The London Urban Area had a population of 8,278,251 in 2001 according to the Office of National Statistics. Much more reliable than a randomly drawn political boundary.


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## Quezalcoatl26 (Apr 19, 2005)

London_2006 said:


> London's 18mn metro is an official govt. figure.


 Wow you people live in a box of sardine, horrible sh!t. You can kill as much as about 1/3 of british and about 40% english people by nuking london area. Interesting for people like Kim. Man you people need to plan your cities better.


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

Quezalcoatl26 said:


> Wow you people live in a box of sardine, horrible sh!t. You can kill as much as about 1/3 of british and about 40% english people by nuking london area. Interesting for people like Kim. Man you people need to plan your cities better.


This 18million is quite spread out, and not the "city" of London, but it's metropolitan area. (city, plus surrounding satellite towns & cities)

The direct urban area has around 8.2million using the U.K. standard, and when using the U.S. standard of measuring Urban Area's, it has about 12million.

The 8.2million figure ends at a green belt that surrounds London, this area is not very wide, but is considered a wonderful break to the urban sprawl and is mainly farmland area. After this short green belt, countless other towns and cities spread out from London and this forms the rest of the population area that the 18million metropolitan region is. Because of the density of these surrounding satellite towns and cities, there is still loads of countryside for people to enjoy, but also excellent commuter transport to get people into the city (or other parts of the metro).


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

SHiRO said:


> That map is brilliant justme! Got more? :cheers:


Sorry, no. That one was from the official INSEE website. I agree it's pretty good. Wish the French were in charge of defining metropolitan area's of the EU and had maps like that (and their statistics) for the whole block. :cheers:


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## spxy (Apr 9, 2003)

For those who dont believe the London figures heres a map.The area within the black is greater London, which has the offical population of 
7-8,000,000ish population the metro area includes the towns around, that are linked to London .This map does not include east and south.


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## SHiRO (Feb 7, 2003)

Justme said:


> Sorry, no. That one was from the official INSEE website. I agree it's pretty good. Wish the French were in charge of defining metropolitan area's of the EU and had maps like that (and their statistics) for the whole block. :cheers:


Indeed, at least they also take into account cross border metros.


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