# Foreign cities on road signs



## DanielFigFoz

The UK does (but only for Ireland, not for Continental Europe)










Portugal does not


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## -Pino-

Netherlands: First towns past the border appear when you approach the last major town before the border









Belgium: Towns like Breda, Eindhoven, Aachen and Luxembourg actually appear quite early. Lille and Aachen (on the E40) slightly later but early enough.









Luxembourg: Small country, cross-border references are all over the place









France: Widespread use and often at an early stage. Barcelona signposted from Orange, Bruxelles from just north of Paris.









Germany: Widespread use. Towns like Venlo, Basel and Salzburg even form the control city on long stretches of motorway









Switzerland: Places abroad start to appear in the border region . Prominent exception: Milano, which appears even before the Gotthard.









Austria: Not too much to say other than "yes they do". München features prominently on signs in Tirol.









Italy: They do, but not a lot. Italian signs tend to focus on towns just before or on the border (Como, Ventimiglia, Brennero, Frejus) and only then the rest of the world starts to get signposted.









Spain: The bulk of the signs simply says "France" or "Portugal". You may come across towns abroad on distance signs (Perpinya and Burdeos, pointing to Perpignan and Bordeaux respectively).

Sweden: Plenty of references to towns in Norway. Most prominently, Oslo signposted from the E4 in Stockholm.

Norway: Plenty of references to towns in Sweden. Most prominently, Stockholm signposted from the E6 in Oslo.

Denmark: There are not many signs pointing to places abroad, but I do not think that that is a matter of principle. It's more the Danish signposting style generally, combined with the small number of land borders. Malmö appears in metropolitan København, Flensborg appears on the E45 south of Kolding. The latter is not a typo, but they just spell the town in Danish.

Poland: An old habit of only signposting a tiny village on the Polish side of the border, often from hundreds of kilometers out. But I hear that Western Poland now starts to see towns like Berlin and Dresden on signs on the international throughfares. The picture below, however, shows a new road and old habits.


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## Space Invader

France has yes :

http://maps.google.fr/maps?f=q&sour...d=tOchSBjXVBmCR3VFm5OK_w&cbp=12,40.35,,0,3.85

http://maps.google.fr/maps?f=q&sour...UTra4_BoxVgWMn30y4iyHQ&cbp=11,205.58,,0,-1.83

Edit : Well perfect examples of what Pino said for France! ^^


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## ed110220

There are a few in South Africa for Maseru (Lesotho), Mbabane (Swaziland) and Maputo (Mozambique), but only very close to the border. There may well be some for Gaborone (Botswana) too.

Maputo (Google Maps)

Mbabane (Google Maps)

Maseru (Google Maps)


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## seem

I think that we don't have even a single one in Slovakia. 

Imo, it is the same in Czech Republic. 



DanielFigFoz said:


> The UK does (but only for Ireland, not for Continental Europe)


I thought that Northern Ireland is right next to the Republic of Ireland.


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## Schwarzpunkt

-Pino- said:


> Italy: They do, but not a lot. Italian signs tend to focus on towns just before or on the border (Como, Ventimiglia, Brennero, Frejus) and only then the rest of the world starts to get signposted.


I agree. but there is an exception (perhaps the only). the A4/A23 interchange in Palmanova. The border is distant approximately 110 km but Villach is already signed:


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## hofburg

I don't understand, isn't that something very usual? In Slo I don't think there is one directions sign without a foreign city.


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## g.spinoza

hofburg said:


> I don't understand, isn't that something very usual? In Slo I don't think there is one directions sign without a foreign city.


In Italy is definitely not usual. Slovenia is small and surrounded by foreign countries with big cities, Italy is big and there aren't many important cities near its borders.


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## DanielFigFoz

hofburg said:


> I don't understand, isn't that something very usual? In Slo I don't think there is one directions sign without a foreign city.


There are none in Portugal as far as I know, not even for bigish Spanish cities



seem said:


> I think that we don't have even a single one in Slovakia.
> 
> Imo, it is the same in Czech Republic.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that Northern Ireland is right next to the Republic of Ireland.


Yes, that is the point


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## Fargo Wolf

Close to the Canada/US border.

Near the City of White Rock, just south of the HWY 99/King George Bvd. jct.
http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=4...=8xZHvukj6HeoRlvzxOoUHQ&cbp=12,201.24,,2,1.91


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## brisavoine

Not just in Europe, but also in North America.


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## -Pino-

Schwarzpunkt said:


> I agree. but there is an exception (perhaps the only). the A4/A23 interchange in Palmanova.


Lyon is signposted from Torino (plus on distance signs on the A4 west of Milan), so that is a significant further exception. North of Milan, you come across some signs referring to the Gotthard. But that is of course closer to the border than the other two examples, and not signposted on a continuous basis. Also noteworthy are references to the Simplon here and there around the A8 and A26. Just a bit into Switzerland, but a foreign focal appearing early nonetheless.

@hofburg, you will see that many countries will not signpost places abroad, or will postpone that step until the very last moment. It is not very Western European as you see, but very common beyond Western Europe, with signs just guiding you to the border village. In that border village, you will come across the first sign to a place abroad, or to the name of the neighbouring country. The worst of them all has to be Australia's Northern Territory. Except for one reference to Adelaide somewhere in Alice Springs, they even fail to signpost to towns in other Australian states. Instead, you will be pointed to the SA Border, the Qld Border or the WA Border (as appropriate).

Some non-European countries where I have seen signposting along that line:
- Argentina
- Chile
- Mexico
- Guatemala
- Belize
- Laos


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## mapman:cz

seem said:


> I think that we don't have even a single one in Slovakia.
> 
> Imo, it is the same in Czech Republic.


Not true, Brno is signed all the way form Bratislava, as well as Győr or Wien.
On D2 Bratislava is a control city together with Břeclav, on D8 we have Dresden (D) as control city from Ústí n/L together with Petrovice, on D1 Gliwice are the control city together with Bohumin etc on other roads...


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## Metro One

In Vancouver, Canada there are signs with distances to Seattle on them (especially on the 99) and vice versa for the I-5 in Seattle.


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## mediar

Bulgaria - No. There is not a single sign with a foreign city written on it.


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## koynov

mediar said:


> Bulgaria - No. There is not a single sign with a foreign city written on it.


This is not true. In Sofia there are many signs with Belgrade, Athena and Istanbul. On E80 there are signs for Istanbul too


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## Schwarzpunkt

seem said:


> I think that we don't have even a single one in Slovakia.


In Bratislava the ways for H, CZ and A (via motorway D2) are always signed with the control cities Brno, Györ, Budapest (on the new sign), and Vienna.
In Kosice the way to Hungary (E71) is signed using "Miskolc" .


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## seem

DanielFigFoz said:


> Yes, that is the point





mapman:cz said:


> Not true, Brno is signed all the way form Bratislava, as well as Győr or Wien.
> On D2 Bratislava is a control city together with Břeclav, on D8 we have Dresden (D) as control city from Ústí n/L together with Petrovice, on D1 Gliwice are the control city together with Bohumin etc on other roads...





Schwarzpunkt said:


> In Bratislava the ways for H, CZ and A (via motorway D2) are always signed with the control cities Brno, Györ, Budapest (on the new sign), and Vienna.
> In Kosice the way to Hungary (E71) is signed using "Miskolc" .


Right. I thought this is thread "Road signs showing cities in non-neighbouring foreign countries". :nuts:

Györ (H), Wien (A), Brno (CZ) -










I thought there is no sign for Budapest, but there is on D4! 










Zwardoń (PL) on D3 -










Rzeszow (PL) near Svidník -










Olomouc (CZ) on D1-

btw, I know there are signs with Zlín as a control city too










Český Tešín (CZ) on D3 feeder -










Kraków and Jabłonka (PL) near R3










Actually I don't think there is any sign for Košice in Bratislava (because there are about 4 different routes which you can use), just Žilina -










Wien and Kittsee (A) (I kno it is wrong, they have changed  ) on D2 -


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## CNGL

In Spain we used to write only the country, but in the last years we have put signs with foreign destinations in they.
Perpignan signed at the end of A-2 S of Girona.

Guarda is signed in Alaejos, between Valladolid and Salamanca (Alaejos is the point the furthest away from Wellington, NZ). I saw it on a photo here in the forum, unfortunately no Street View.


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## Verso

-Pino- said:


> Poland: An old habit of only signposting a tiny village on the Polish side of the border, often from hundreds of kilometers out. But I hear that Western Poland now starts to see towns like Berlin and Dresden on signs on the international throughfares. The picture below, however, shows a new road and old habits.


That's not "old habits", but the usual indication of how far the end of Poland is. There're signs for Vilnius when you approach the border.


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## hofburg

Verso said:


> Why the hell is Salzburg signed on A9 northbound?


gotta be here.. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sou...8.282279,11.733398&spn=0.732006,2.108002&z=10


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## Verso

hofburg said:


> gotta be here.. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sou...8.282279,11.733398&spn=0.732006,2.108002&z=10


Oh. :doh: But then, Stuttgart could also be signed.


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## x-type

one blurry Pécs in Croatia









and one Beograd in Croatia


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## MoroccoFever

In north of spain you have several signs with flags on it. Just like this one










This one is almost 1100 km before the destination Morocco.

http://maps.google.nl/?ie=UTF8&ll=43.296449,-1.995242&spn=0.005903,0.033023&z=16&layer=c&cbll=43.296451,-1.995233&panoid=ztkk-3tl05xJ0hfl0UxhnQ&cbp=12,218.69,,0,4.74


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## Zagor666

Saarbrücken,Trier,Koblenz from Luxembourg 



Domodossola from Switzerland 



Bruxelles,Liege,Antwerpen,Heerlen from Germany 



Clervaux,Diekirch,Luxembourg from Belgium 



Clervaux,Troisvierges from Belgium



Duisburg from The Netherlands 



Nijmegen,Venlo from Germany 



Bastogne,Bruxelles from Luxembourg 



Bastogne,St.Vith in Luxembourg 



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

:cheers:


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## Verso

Luxemb(o)urg :hammer:


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## Zagor666

Verso said:


> Luxemb(o)urg :hammer:


Here is another one :lol::nuts:



A "normal" one,also from Belgium 





Prüm,Trier,Stadtkyll,Euskirchen,Köln from Belgium



Dubrovnik,Sarajevo from Serbia



Monschau,Kalterherberg from Belgium 



:cheers:


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## hofburg

haha, that's how you solve bilingual issues. we should try Tr(ie)st(e).


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## krulstaartje

I think I saw Rotterdam and Zeebrugge signed in Hull, but I wasn't driving so I didn't pay as much attention.

In London, on the A2 southbound, the Channel Tunnel is signposted.

And on the topic of exonyms discussed earlier, I've been trying but failing to resurrect old Dutch exonyms for English places. (Plijmuiden for Plymouth, Cambrugge for Cambridge, Kantelberg for Canterbury, etc)


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## ChrisZwolle

hofburg said:


> haha, that's how you solve bilingual issues. we should try Tr(ie)st(e).


Try:

Mons - Bergen
Lille - Rijsel
Braine-l'Alleud - Eigenbrakel

good luck! :cheers:


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## DanielFigFoz

krulstaartje said:


> I think I saw Rotterdam and Zeebrugge signed in Hull, but I wasn't driving so I didn't pay as much attention.
> 
> In London, on the A2 southbound, the Channel Tunnel is signposted.
> 
> And on the topic of exonyms discussed earlier, I've been trying but failing to resurrect old Dutch exonyms for English places. (Plijmuiden for Plymouth, Cambrugge for Cambridge, Kantelberg for Canterbury, etc)


Nice.

In Portuguesew I know, and they're still in use:

Cantuária for Canterbury

Edimburgo for Edinburgh

Cantabríga for Cambridge

there are more


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## g.spinoza

hofburg said:


> ^ nice pics.
> 
> 
> 
> they say Nova Gòrica, with C. never heard anyone with K.  however, we say nova ghorìca.


I meant the pronounciation. I understand that "c" in Slovenian is pronounced like italian "z"; I meant that overwhelming majority of Italians would pronounce it like Italian "c", i.e. English "k".


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## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> I think there used to be only 'Nuova Gorizia' signed by Villesse (A4×RA17), but now I'm not sure any more. Another endonym: Postojna (Postumia).
> 
> There're many signs by Trieste with Italian-only names for bilingual villages.


I'm not quite sure that laws are the same. I'm sure that the whole Valle d'Aosta has such laws, but I think that the official names of bilingual towns in Friuli-Venezia Giulia are just the Italian ones. I may be wrong, though.


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## g.spinoza

hofburg said:


> gotta be here.. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sou...8.282279,11.733398&spn=0.732006,2.108002&z=10


It is:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Autostrada+A9%2FBundesautobahn+9%2FDia%C4%BEnica+A9%2FA9&daddr=Salzburg,+Austria&geocode=FYmo3wIdvmGxAA%3BFdKD2QIdIjTHACmx1Aip3Zp2RzE99ypBoYPhwQ&hl=en&mra=dme&mrsp=0&sz=13&sll=48.192069,11.709709&sspn=0.093494,0.264187&ie=UTF8&ll=48.180152,11.596879&spn=0,0.008256&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=48.180318,11.597041&panoid=zzYNLlzNpE9Wa9jA3_1oNw&cbp=12,76.83,,0,4.39

I drive every day thru there...


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## Zagor666

ChrisZwolle said:


> Try:
> 
> Mons - Bergen
> Lille - Rijsel
> Braine-l'Alleud - Eigenbrakel
> 
> good luck! :cheers:


Or Anvers for Antwerpen,some signs realy need´s to be bilingual or you dont understand it.I for myself would perfer to write the name that stands on the map so if the city lies in a region where dutch is the main language write always antwerpen and if the city lies in a region where french is the main language write namur damit it,its not so hard :bash:


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## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> Try:
> 
> Mons - Bergen
> Lille - Rijsel
> Braine-l'Alleud - Eigenbrakel
> 
> good luck! :cheers:


oh, he can have such a situation in Slovenia, too: Klagenfurt - Celovec, Villach - Beljak, Monfalcone - Tržič ... :lol: 
Graz - Gradec and Tarvisio - Trbiž are out of this, they are too similar


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## DanielFigFoz

I call it what it is English if I'm talking in in English and what it is in Portuguwse if I am talking in Portuguese, Antwerp and Antuérpia in tis case.


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## Verso

x-type said:


> oh, he can have such a situation in Slovenia, too: Klagenfurt - Celovec, Villach - Beljak, Monfalcone - Tržič ... :lol:
> Graz - Gradec and Tarvisio - Trbiž are out of this, they are too similar


I miss "Karlovec/Karlovac".


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## Penn's Woods

brisavoine said:


> I find that a very weak explanation.
> 
> First of all bilingual signage in Europe is very frequent (Donostia-San Sebastian, Baile Atha Cliath-Dublin, etc.), and even in the Netherlands they have bilingual signs. Some examples.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then look at the signage for city of Aoste/Aosta in France. Aoste was historically a French-speaking city, it's still officially bilingual today (French and Italian), although the Italian speakers are now the majority in town. So linguistically speaking Aoste/Aosta is to the French exactly the same as Brussels to the Dutch.
> 
> Now, you know how the Dutch are supposedly much more post-modern/liberal/respectful of their neighbors than the "arrogant" French. Well... that's the signage for Aoste/Aosta in France:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, the name is solely written in Italian (Aosta), language of the majority of the city's inhabitants today, with no French whatsoever (Aoste), historical and still co-official language of the city. It's as if Brussels was signed solely as "Bruxelles" in the Netherlands.
> 
> So if the French can do it, I'm sure the Dutch can do it too.


Find us a sign in France that has Brussels signed in both its languages....


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## brisavoine

Penn's Woods said:


> Find us a sign in France that has Brussels signed in both its languages....


Why should Brussels be signed in both French and Dutch in France? France doesn't pretend to sign cities in their native tongues as the Dutch do. What I found funny with that Dutch sign was how it didn't follow its own politically-correct logic.


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## -Pino-

The Dutch follow their own logic of signposting cities in their native tongue. They do so in respect of Brussels. It's not a Dutch problem that it does not follow the French logic. In fact, we do not follow French logic on many points, our newspapers would not defend politicians assaulting hotel staff. Personally, I bother more about situations where the Dutch deviate from their own logic, namely where they signpost Luik instead of Liège. And there are a few other instances too where the endonym principle is not properly adhered to.


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## Penn's Woods

^^Uh-oh.

Ahem.

Brisavoine does have a point, I think; Brussels is predominantly French-speaking, by far, and *if* the policy is to identify Brussels in its language(s), I think you have to either use both (my preference*) or go with the French. I can't quite figure out - it's late here - what the fact that Aosta's signposted in Italian in France has to do with it; it seemed to me at the time that the fact that France ignores Dutch for Brussels was inconsistent with B.'s argument and the Aosta example.

*And the fact that this is signage in the Netherlands we're talking about probably shifts the scale in favor of using both French and Dutch rather than French only.

On that note, you all can argue about Brussels, Aosta and Dominique Strauss-Kahn among yourselves for the next several hours. [yawn]. Goedenacht/bonne nuit. Or rather, goedemorgen/bonne matinée.


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## -Pino-

Brussels is officially bilingual and therefore has two official names that officially stand on equal terms with each other. The French-speaking majority in town is of no official relevance until the bilinguism gets officially removed. In fact, bilinguism tends to be introduced in order to protect a minority against majority rule. If that is one's starting point, saying that signposting Brussel is off because of that French-speaking majority is the beginning of the end of the protection that I mentioned. Even though the Dutch are by no means bound by Belgian politics, I think that they can be completely at ease in opting for Brussel, thus disregarding majorities. Like the French would have been at ease in signposting Aoste instead of Aosta.

Bilinguism is of course always an option, but I think that it has an adverse effect on the legibility of signs. As far as the Dutch are concerned, you will only come across bilinguism on town limit signs, never on directional signs. I think that is a good thing, and


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## brisavoine

-Pino- said:


> In fact, bilinguism tends to be introduced in order to protect a minority against majority rule. If that is one's starting point, saying that signposting Brussel is off because of that French-speaking majority is the beginning of the end of the protection that I mentioned.


Oh, so you're implying that it's signed as "Brussel" alone in order to protect the Flemish minority in Brussels? If that's the logic, then surely if you signpost San Sebastian in the Netherlands, you should signpost it as "Donostia" alone.


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## ed110220

brisavoine said:


> Oh, so you're implying that it's signed as "Brussel" alone in order to protect the Flemish minority in Brussels? If that's the logic, then surely if you signpost San Sebastian in the Netherlands, you should signpost it as "Donostia" alone.


Well if Basque was also the language of the Netherlands, one might expect it may make some difference :lol: 

If one place (Brussels) has a bilingual policy under which two names (Bruxelles and Brussel) are equal and another country (the Netherlands) is going to choose just one then surely the fact that one name (Brussel) is used in the language of that country (Netherlands) is going to tilt things in favour of that name.

The authorities are going to be looking at the legal policy in regards to bilingualism which says the two names are equal as their starting point, rather than the demographics.

Closest example I can think of (though it is not identical) is in the UK where Welsh places are signed in Welsh and English in Wales, but in England in English only. So for example in Wales you'll see signs for Cardiff and Caerdydd, but on the English side of the border only Cardiff.


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## Mr_Dru

Okay Belgium is very complicated. There is even a big differents in giving city-names by the Dutch and the Flemish.

For example for the cities Mons (Belgium) and Lille (France).
If an Flemish person ask an Dutch person where Bergen or Rijsel is, the Dutch won't know it. However in Dutch, Mons and Lille literally means Bergen and Rijsel. So the signs in Flanders wil say Rijsel, but for the Dutch people it's Lille.

French: _Mons_ | Flemish: _Bergen_ | Dutch: _Mons_
French: _Lille _ | Flemish: _Rijsel _ | Dutch: _Lille_


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## Mr_Dru

*Near Amsterdam A1

*


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## -Pino-

That sign is gone now, isn't it?


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## niko.athens.greece

Fargo Wolf said:


> Close to the Canada/US border.
> 
> Near the City of White Rock, just south of the HWY 99/King George Bvd. jct.
> http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=4...=8xZHvukj6HeoRlvzxOoUHQ&cbp=12,201.24,,2,1.91


*In Canada and the US, signs designating cities in the neighboring state or country is quite the norm. For example in British Columbia, Seattle is signposted throughout the major arteries of Metro Vancouver ; on the Trans Canada Freeway as early as Horseshoe Bay, on Granville, Oak, Cambie, on the Vancouver-Blaine Fwy etc. and the same is seen along the major arteries in Washington State. For example the control city on the I-5 north of Seattle is solely Vancouver BC. Vancouver is posted in several points south of Seattle and Portland as well. The same is true for several other cities.*


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## Zagor666

Manderfeld,Belgium 



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## Road_UK

Near Calais, France....


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## Schwarzpunkt

hybrid sign : the Austrian A13 shown on Italian A22.
Blue background color as in Austria but in the Italian Octagon :lol:


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## julesstoop

brisavoine said:


> Why should Brussels be signed in both French and Dutch in France? France doesn't pretend to sign cities in their native tongues as the Dutch do. What I found funny with that Dutch sign was how it didn't follow its own politically-correct logic.


Mind that Brussels plays an important part in the history of the Netherlands (having been the capitol of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands, the Duchy of Brabant, the Seventeen Provinces and the Southern Netherlands), that the name 'Brussel' itself is derived from a dutch geonym and that the city's history is in no way as deeply entwined with French history. So we present day dutchies simply think of it as 'Brussel' and not as 'Bruxelles'.


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## brisavoine

julesstoop said:


> Mind that Brussels plays an important part in the history of the Netherlands (having been the capitol of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands,


Amsterdam was the capital of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands.


julesstoop said:


> and that the city's history is in no way as deeply entwined with French history.


:laugh:

Are you serious?


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## hofburg

Schwarzpunkt said:


> hybrid sign : the Austrian A13 shown on Italian A22.
> Blue background color as in Austria but in the Italian Octagon :lol:
> 
> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-OaO29Xpe_BQ/TlVg0lFbv6I/AAAAAAAAA0g/g7oFuagSQI4/s800/A13.jpg


funny,
here is austrian A2 signed on a green Italian sign:


Salzburg - Berlin 022 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


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## julesstoop

brisavoine said:


> Amsterdam was the capital of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands.
> 
> :laugh:
> 
> Are you serious?


Yes. Utterly serious. :cheers:


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## brisavoine

Well then perhaps you should get outside of the Netherlands and explore the world a bit to see different points of views and and different perspectives on things.


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## DanielFigFoz

Are you going to the Netherlands to see their perspective?


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## CNGL

As promised, the sign pointing to Guarda, Portugal in Alaejos, Spain: http://g.co/maps/scz8. This town is the one the farthest away from Wellington, New Zealand (It's just a couple km North of the antipodal point, measuring from where is the star in Google Earth).


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## piotr71

Germany - Zittau.









Poland - Porajów.









Czech Republik - Nachod.









Poland - Kamienna Góra.









Poland - Lubawka.


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## Penn's Woods

^^What's wrong with both? My high school - yes, a public high school in a country that has the reputation of not being interested in this sort of thing - offered Spanish, French, Italian and German. And I have a feeling there was another one I'm forgetting. Also Latin.


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## -Pino-

brisavoine said:


> Same with Lille, very "Netherlandic" architecture (in France it's called simply "Flemish" architecture, given that Lille is the capital of Flanders anyway), so why do authorities in your country signpost Lille as "Lille" and not as "Rijsel"?


Lille is the capital of parts of Flanders annexed to France somewhere in the 1700s. Calling it the capital of Flanders proper is about as accurate as calling Seoul the capital of the whole of Korea. As far as that is concerned, that Flemish architecture is typical for the borders as they once stood. Not of Flanders, as the architecture was as common in neighbouring parts of the 17 Provinces that were never part of Flanders (Brabant and Hainaut, notably). There is no link to the Dutch language. Flemish-looking towns like Lille and Tournai have never been in Dutch-speaking territory. 

Anyway, cultural links or former language have not been leading for the Dutch style of signposting. So end of the history class. And as to the way of signposting to Brussels from the Netherlands, I'm not even going there ...


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## brisavoine

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^What's wrong with both?


Well you see, you're touching on a key issue here. All the southern Euro countries lagging northern Europe economically have suddenly decided to ditch all other foreign languages and teach only English (it's not just Italy, it's also Spain, Portugal, and Greece). As if learning English was suddenly going to turn them into Asian tiger economies. :lol:

I've always found that mentality ridiculous. I mean seriously, in a country like Spain, where France is the main neighbor and the main economic partner, they suddenly decide to abandon French and become crazy about English at school. What good has it done to their economy? To me it looks like a sort of magical thinking.


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## Penn's Woods

^^PMing you before people yell at us for going off topic.


----------



## brisavoine

It's the off topic thread, don't worry. 

PS: My mail box at SSC is 99% full.


----------



## Road_UK

Please keep the discussion going. It's a little off-topic, so what. It's conducted in a civilized manner, and I find it interesting.


----------



## shpirtkosova

This is in Kosovo...


----------



## alserrod

g.spinoza said:


> In Italy French was the only foreign language taught in school until the 70s, so many well-educated older people speak it. Then we realize that the world was changed and switched to English.



At Spain too. In fact, they had to choose, at high school between English or French.
My mother remembers she chose French... because it was the alternative most chosen (only three students chose English in the 60s). Spain had little relation with exterior. People could go out with passport but there was no culture of movements... And if you went to any centre Europe country, first to cross was France (where a lot of Spanish emigrants were living).

So you can find no older people with high level education and little knowledge of languages.

Nowadays, one language is mandatory (and not neccessary English, it is the major option but can choose French or German) and second language is optional (more options in this case).

When I was at high school, we had one year Latin for everyone, and people who chose Arts will continue with further years of Latin and Greek.


(not for me, I studied Sciences...)


----------



## Penn's Woods

brisavoine said:


> It's the off topic thread, don't worry.
> 
> PS: My mail box at SSC is 99% full.


Ah. Already sent it. But let's see....



Road_UK said:


> Please keep the discussion going. It's a little off-topic, so what. It's conducted in a civilized manner, and I find it interesting.


All right, here's what I sent Brisavoine. Ever-so-slightly edited:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=163

I completely agree. I've always been fascinated by languages, so I'm rather jealous of Europeans, who have the opportunity (if they're interested, of course, which many if not most people aren't) to watch TV or listen to radio from neighboring countries, day trip to neighboring countries to buy books.... I'm old enough - 47 - to remember a time when I used to go to every French film that showed up in Philadelphia or New York because it was the only opportunity, without traveling, just to hear French spoken! It's gotten easier for me with the Internet, but I still can't get that sort of real-life exposure to another language unless I go to Europe (which isn't cheap and I don't like flying) or Quebec. I get books in French by ordering from Amazon France....

But human nature is human nature and a lot of people aren't interested. I scratch my head when I see Francophone Belgians on forums saying, "but I never get the opportunity to use Dutch." Heck, as I said, they could spend an afternoon in Antwerp or just turn on the TV. If someone's motivated, the opportunities are there. People have every right not to be motivated, but saying they have no opportunity is just bull.

I still remember being impressed by a restaurant hostess in Amsterdam 25 years ago who was switching effortlessly and fluently among Dutch, English, French and German. I wonder if that still happens.

And relying completely on English - besides being I think somewhat disrespectful of your neighbors (why shouldn't German be at least as important as English to people in Strasbourg, for example? And for a Belgian who speaks either major language of his country to say the other major language of his own country is "useless" is really rather contemptuous) - risks turning English into a sort of Esperanto. That really drives me up a wall. (Years ago, I read a column in the New York Times by someone suggesting that - out of consideration for the many non-native-speakers using English - we should be careful not to use words that are too complicated. Sorry. If everyone wants to learn English, that's fine. But learn it as it is rather than asking us to dumb it down, because we native speakers don't have a backup language that we can switch to when we want to express ourselves completely. But I've said that a couple of times on this forum, and some people don't want to hear it.)

But this has turned into a slightly incoherent rant, so I'll stop now.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

In Portugal in Year 10 some people have to choose between French and English, although some people continue with both, by choosing the Languages and Humanities course. 

In the UK French is the most common foreign language taught, but I think that all schools teach Spanish too


----------



## Palance

It's interesting to find signs for cities not in neighbouring countries, but for 1 more country ahead. To be more precisely: You should cross two borders to reach that city. We have tried to find examples on the Dutch Wegenforum

Example on the Belgian E314: Heerlen is in Netherlands, Aachen is Germany. To reach Aachen, one should first drive through the Netherlands (in Germany, on the A4 near Aachen The Belgian city of Antwerpen is signed - via the Netherlands)











Another example: Trieste in Croatia, but one should first cross Slovenia for reaching Italy.










Switserland: München on the signs, but one should first drive through Austria.









Saudi-Arabia: Oman is via the UAE.









Has anyone more examples?


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^You won't find any US examples, since the nearest qualifying cities would be in Guatemala or Belize.

But I _think_ there's a thread along these lines in this forum somewhere.


----------



## Road_UK

Muenchen is signposted on the Italian A22 before the Austrian border. Verona is signposted in Germany at the Inntal Dreieck near Rosenheim. I think there are images of that on this thread somewhere. Dijon and Lyon is signposted on the Belgian E411 via Luxembourg.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^You won't find any US examples, since the nearest qualifying cities would be in Guatemala or Belize.


Or Poland. :cheers:


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Or Poland. :cheers:


?
Did we annex something while I wasn't looking, or are you doing an Alaska/Russia-and-jump-to-Kaliningrad/Poland thing?


----------



## Corvinus

Penn's Woods said:


> But I _think_ there's a thread along these lines in this forum somewhere.


That one is here:
Road signs for cities in non-neighbouring foreign countries


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Penn's Woods said:


> ?
> or are you doing an Alaska/Russia-and-jump-to-Kaliningrad/Poland thing?


:yes:


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^"The *nearest* qualifying cities" would still be in Guatemala or Belize.


----------



## ed110220

ChrisZwolle said:


> :yes:


Surely if you went that way, the closest country to be reached from Alaska via Russia would be North Korea. Anyone for a sign for Pyongyang in the USA? :nuts:


----------



## Palance

Corvinus said:


> That one is here:
> Road signs for cities in non-neighbouring foreign countries


I missed that thread I'm afraid...


----------



## brisavoine

Penn's Woods said:


> or are you doing an Alaska/Russia-and-jump-to-Kaliningrad/Poland thing?


Probably. 

We could do a France-Peru one, via Brazil.


----------



## Nima-Farid

A sign in Iran
The last number is 265 km
The two last cities Karbala and Najaf are in Iraq. Mehran is the border city.


----------



## Palance

Nima-Farid said:


> The two last cities Karbala and Najaf are in Iraq. Mehran is the border city.


Why do they show Iraqi cities? Is there many traffic between Iran and Iraq? And how about cities in other neighbouring countries of Iran? Do they appear on signs as well?


----------



## Nima-Farid

They show it because they are shia holy cities and lots of people go there for religious porpouses. The name of not this road but another road that goes to Baghdad from Iran is Karbala road. Baghdad is closer to Iran but only Karbala is on the signs.
I didn't see other cities from other countries but I saw the border city of Bazargan (Between IR and TR) from 100 km from Tehran on signs with 800 km distance


----------



## Road_UK

Austrian sign in Italy (Brenner)


----------



## Road_UK

Well, that was good...


----------



## Durin

The Nordics does not have many major international routes, however in Sweden the important international ones is signposted very inconsistently. In the far north only Haparanda and not Tornio is signposted. The E4 even ends in Tornio, 1 km across the border at an intersection with the E8 in Finland. Trondheim in Norway on the E14 is signposted already from Sundsvall. From Stockholm (except for local signage for Tallinn and Helsinki) the only international destination signposted is Oslo on the E18, while Gothenburg is shown as the final destination on the E20. Southbound from Stockholm, only Helsingborg is signposted on the E4 (quite naturally, as the E4 ends there). Local signage in Helsingborg show Helsingør in DK. In Gothenburg, Frederikshavn and the E45 in DK accessed by sea is shown, including some local version oval with EU stars. However southbound from Gothenburg, signage only show Malmø as a destination, although the E20 continues across the Øresund and through Denmark. Even after passing Helsingborg southbound on the E20/E6 only Malmø is normally signposted. Only after reaching Malmø and when literally on the Outer ring is Copenhagen shown as a destination! The same goes for the E6 northbound from Malmø, not until Gothenburg is Oslo signposted.

I find especially the Copenhagen situation strange, not only because Copenhagen is the major regional destination, largest city, metro region and most definitely also the capital of Scandinavia (subjective but true!), but also because Copenhagen is on the only fixed link to and from the Scandinavian peninsula. I can only assume this preference derives from before the bridge was built, although 11 years have now passed.

Furthermore, I'm in doubt of how mutually intelligible Swedish 'Köpenhamn' compared to Danish 'København' and the more international 'Copenhagen/Kopenhagen' is to foreigners. As Sweden does not use country ovals officially, Copenhagen ought to be signposted bilingually in Danish or English and not Swedish only. Preferably already from Oslo and Gothenburg and as an indirect destination on the E4 from Stockholm.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Kopenhamn is understandable I'd say


----------



## MattiG

Durin said:


> The Nordics does not have many major international routes, however in Sweden the important international ones is signposted very inconsistently. In the far north only Haparanda and not Tornio is signposted. The E4 even ends in Tornio, 1 km across the border at an intersection with the E8 in Finland. Trondheim in Norway on the E14 is signposted already from Sundsvall. From Stockholm (except for local signage for Tallinn and Helsinki) the only international destination signposted is Oslo on the E18, while Gothenburg is shown as the final destination on the E20. [...]


I think, the Swedish way of singposting is rather consistent. Like in most other countries, the focus of signposting is the national road network: The default destinations are those cities close to the border if there is any. That is why Göteborg, Haparanda, Helsingborg and Malmö are logical choices. 

I would expect that showing St Petersburg as the destination on E20 rather than Stockholm might cause some noise.

If there is not a self-evident choice to show as a destination, a foreign city is shown. That explains names Oslo, Trondheim, Kongsvinger, Røros, etc in the signs.



> Furthermore, I'm in doubt of how mutually intelligible Swedish 'Köpenhamn' compared to Danish 'København' and the more international 'Copenhagen/Kopenhagen' is to foreigners.


I do not believe this will make any issue.


----------



## Ingenioren

Funny thing is the Bodø signs running all the way from Skellefteå on road 95. The distance is 500km and passes more logical destination Arjeplog. Soon as the road crosses border and later meets up with E6 there is not a sign for Bodø, but Fauske... 

At the interesection in Norway is signs for Graddis, Luleå and Arjeplog


----------



## NordikNerd

Durin said:


> Even after passing Helsingborg southbound on the E20/E6 only Malmø is normally signposted. Only after reaching Malmø and when literally on the Outer ring is Copenhagen shown as a destination! I find especially the Copenhagen situation strange, not only because Copenhagen is the major regional destination, largest city, metro region and most definitely also the capital of Scandinavia (subjective but true!), but also because Copenhagen is on the only fixed link to and from the Scandinavian peninsula.


I think the signage of Copenhagen is sufficient, how many cars on the E20/E6 drive with final destination Copenhagen ? 1 or 2 %

Remember the bridge has a fee of a hefty 50€ single journey, then you have the language barrier other culture, currency. The majority of swedish Copenhagen visitors park their car at Svågertorp and take the train further.

Malmö is btw signposted in Copenhagen, probably more than Copenhagen in Sweden?


----------



## Ingenioren

From the O4 x E20 intersection atleast. Svågertorp doesn't have trains bound for Copenhagen tough.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The tolls for frequent users are much lower, especially if you're a daily commuter it's only a few euros per passage.


----------



## Durin

MattiG said:


> Like in most other countries, the focus of signposting is the national road network: The default destinations are those cities close to the border if there is any. That is why Göteborg, Haparanda, Helsingborg and Malmö are logical choices.





MattiG said:


> If there is not a self-evident choice to show as a destination, a foreign city is shown. That explains names Oslo, Trondheim, Kongsvinger, Røros, etc in the signs.


Yes, and that among other things is why I find signage inconsistent. To me, Copenhagen is the more obvious destination than Malmö for traffic bound for Denmark and the continent. Especially when Sweden is not using country code ovals. This while Oslo is signposted as the primary destination along the entire E18 in Sweden as it is a major city, however several larger cities inside Sweden are situated along the route that could, under your logic, serve as final destinations; Västerås, Örebro, Karlstad. Tornio is not signposted on the E4 although it is the larger and 'original' urban and regional centre. 



MattiG said:


> I would expect that showing St Petersburg as the destination on E20 rather than Stockholm might cause some noise.


I was referring to the E20 westbound, not eastbound, from Stockholm. My point is neither that cities situated along E-roads far away in other countries, nor that international destinations accessed by sea should be signposted as final destinations, only that international destinations with a land connection or fixed link should be. On the E18 in Finland, eastbound from Helsinki, if it already isn't, I believe St. Petersburg should be signposted as the final destination.


----------



## Durin

NordikNerd said:


> I think the signage of Copenhagen is sufficient, how many cars on the E20/E6 drive with final destination Copenhagen ? 1 or 2 %
> 
> Remember the bridge has a fee of a hefty 50€ single journey, then you have the language barrier other culture, currency.


My point is that Sweden should sign consistently. If Oslo is serving as the final E18 destination, so should Copenhagen on the E20. The toll on the bridge may be dear, but the bridge is still is a major international link and also carries a lot of traffic to and from the continent. Indeed a lot of the traffic would be bypassing Copenhagen. However as Sweden is lacking any other country identifier, such as ovals, Copenhagen and not only Malmö should be signposted.

As European road freight and travel increases, I believe a slight overhaul of highway signage in Sweden is needed. The main reason being, that they're very able to to do it properly on the continent! :cheers:



NordikNerd said:


> Malmö is btw signposted in Copenhagen, probably more than Copenhagen in Sweden?


Malmö and 'Sverige via Helsingör (ferry)' is signposted mainly on the E20 when in Copenhagen, from the O4 and inbound, so just about the same policy as in Sweden.


----------



## MattiG

Durin said:


> Yes, and that among other things is why I find signage inconsistent. To me, Copenhagen is the more obvious destination than Malmö for traffic bound for Denmark and the continent.


Why Copenhagen? The E20 just passes Copenhagen and continues to Esbjerg. To be consistent with the 'follow E road until' logic, the destination should be Esbjerg. And the E18 should be signposted to Kristiansand instead of Oslo.

I do not think any country uses international cities as the default destinations of signage on E roads except close to the borders. For most countries, the E roads are just extra numbers on the signs.


----------



## Durin

MattiG said:


> Why Copenhagen? The E20 just passes Copenhagen and continues to Esbjerg. To be consistent with the 'follow E road until' logic, the destination should be Esbjerg. And the E18 should be signposted to Kristiansand instead of Oslo.
> 
> I do not think any country uses international cities as the default destinations of signage on E roads except close to the borders. For most countries, the E roads are just extra numbers on the signs.


Doesn't necessarily have to be Copenhagen, I would be satisfied with Malmö and a DK oval on signs. Copenhagen just happens to be the first major city across the border. Just as Oslo is on the E18, which I've already mentioned.

I'm not specifically referring to the E road network, just to major national motorways that happen to serve as international routes. The Nordic countries (except for Finland) are unique in using E numbering exclusively for our highways so why shouldn't we utilize the full potential of the system?

An example from Slovenia, however somewhat cluttered:








(c) Verso


----------



## MattiG

Ingenioren said:


> Funny thing is the Bodø signs running all the way from Skellefteå on road 95. The distance is 500km and passes more logical destination Arjeplog.


Arjeplog? 

Arjeplog is known for its cultural heritage, but it still is an insignificant village of 3000 inhabitants. Bodø is a town of 47000 people.



> Soon as the road crosses border and later meets up with E6 there is not a sign for Bodø, but Fauske...
> 
> At the interesection in Norway is signs for Graddis, Luleå and Arjeplog


I think, Norway is known for other things than the logic and continuity of the signage...

Quite often, the signage is not seamless at the borders. For instance, the E10 in Sweden is first signposted to Kiruna, then to Narvik. In Narvik, there are no signs to E10. At the intersection of E6 and E10, the destination shown is not Kiruna but Luleå. At the Norwegian-Swedish border, the name Luleå disappears and reappears in Kiruna.


----------



## -Pino-

MattiG said:


> Quite often, the signage is not seamless at the borders. For instance, the E10 in Sweden is first signposted to Kiruna, then to Narvik. In Narvik, there are no signs to E10. At the intersection of E6 and E10, the destination shown is not Kiruna but Luleå. At the Norwegian-Swedish border, the name Luleå disappears and reappears in Kiruna.


That is, unfortunately, a phenomenon around many border crossings. A few prominent examples in the Benelux:
- the final signs on the German A3 include Utrecht, once you cross the border, the signs on the Dutch A12 do not.
- the final signs on the Dutch A2 include Brussels, nothing to be found on the Belgian side (even though there is a Dutch sign that says "Brussels follow Liège")
- Around Aachen, there are signs to Brussels. Those simply cease once you cross into Belgium.
- The Belgians signpost Saarbrücken on their E42, which is nowhere to be seen once you cross into Germany.

When signposting towns in neighbouring countries, I would expect road authorities to look at the signs as they are across the border, simply to make sure continuity. But there is a huge gap between theory and practice there...


----------



## MattiG

Durin said:


> Doesn't necessarily have to be Copenhagen, I would be satisfied with Malmö and a DK oval on signs. Copenhagen just happens to be the first major city across the border. Just as Oslo is on the E18, which I've already mentioned.


Well, I still see Sweden being *very logical and consistent in this sense*. They just follow a different logic path from you: If there is a major city close to the border, then show that as the destination. If not, then show some city across the border.

Sweden seems to think Malmö is big enough a city to be shown in the long-haul signage, but Karlstad is not. Anyway, Copenhagen is shown as a destination on E20 prior to reaching Malmö. No big changes to get lost.

BTW, Denmark is following a similar logic to Sweden. The eastbound E20 is signposted to Copenhagen, and signs to Malmö appear at the junction of O4.


----------



## Road_UK

This is what I was trying to post. Austrian sign in Italy:


----------



## Godius

brisavoine said:


> Amsterdam was the capital of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands.
> 
> :laugh:
> 
> Are you serious?


Brussels was the capital of the UK of NL too. Even the parliament shifted from Brussels and The Hague every few years.

At the time of the UK of NL, brussels was a 85% + dutch/flemish speaking city with Flemish background. Things really changed after the Belgian revolution.


----------



## i15

seem said:


> Right. I thought this is thread "Road signs showing cities in non-neighbouring foreign countries". :nuts:
> 
> Györ (H), Wien (A), Brno (CZ) -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> Rzeszow (PL) near Svidník -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


However, I've never seen sign with Ukrainan town. Only signs with the name of border crossing Vyšné Nemecké are visible in the "far east" of Slovakia (Michalovce). In Košice (90km from UA border), there are only signs with direction to town Michalovce.


----------



## brisavoine

Godius said:


> Brussels was the capital of the UK of NL too. Even the parliament shifted from Brussels and The Hague every few years.


It was purely symbolical. The true power was in Holland. Otherwise Belgium would never have seceded from the UK of NL.


Godius said:


> At the time of the UK of NL, brussels was a 85% + dutch/flemish speaking city with Flemish background.


The elites and bourgeoisie were already French-speaking, which is why they couldn't stand the elites of Holland who controlled the UK of NL.


----------



## Godius

brisavoine said:


> It was purely symbolical. The true power was in Holland. Otherwise Belgium would never have seceded from the UK of NL.
> 
> The elites and bourgeoisie were already French-speaking, which is why they couldn't stand the elites of Holland who controlled the UK of NL.


It wasn't symbolical, the northern NL had 55 seats and the southern NL had also 55 seats in parliament. The real problem for the southern part was the monarch, he was a bit of an enlightened despot.

The elites and bourgeoisie: they were Parisian revolutionaries and banned from France. No one in europe wanted them, the UK of NL didn't realy control the border and they messed up the southern part. 

The detrimental effects are still visible in nowadays Belgium.


----------



## -Pino-

When you talk about William I as "a bit of an enlightened despot", you can leave out the "enlightened". It was classical restoration autocracy. Unless you see enlightenment in William's support for trade and new roads.

The one thing that I as a Dutchman can say is that I can fully understand that large groups of Belgians got fed up with him. Essentially, they were 18 years ahead of the Dutch. The sole thing worth a nice "what if" scenario is what might have been, had the Dutch realised earlier that the United Kingdom of the Netherlands was an unbalanced autocracy in which, as the Belgians argued, things needed to change in favour of the South (under-represented in Parliament), the French language (treated unfavorably in Flemish areas with large numbers of francophones) and Catholicism (treated as an inferior religion). 

Anyway, why are we discussing this type of history when it simply comes to signposting towns abroad?


----------



## brisavoine

Godius said:


> It wasn't symbolical, the northern NL had 55 seats and the southern NL had also 55 seats in parliament.


If that's so, the Belgians would never have revolted against the Dutch. Probably you've missed something somewhere.


Godius said:


> The elites and bourgeoisie: they were Parisian revolutionaries and banned from France. No one in europe wanted them, the UK of NL didn't realy control the border and they messed up the southern part.


Yeah, yeah, it's all the fault of the French, as usual! :laugh:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Just because they might have had equality doesn't mean that they were happy about it.


----------



## Godius

-Pino- said:


> When you talk about William I as "a bit of an enlightened despot", you can leave out the "enlightened". It was classical restoration autocracy. Unless you see enlightenment in William's support for trade and new roads.


Yeah, that's a better formulation I think. This monarch was only liked in de province of Holland. Other provinces, both northern and southern, disliked this guy a lot.



-Pino- said:


> Anyway, why are we discussing this type of history when it simply comes to signposting towns abroad?


 Good point.



brisavoine said:


> If that's so, the Belgians would never have revolted against the Dutch. Probably you've missed something somewhere.
> 
> Yeah, yeah, it's all the fault of the French, as usual! :laugh:


There is some really selective reading going on here :lol:.


----------



## Penn's Woods

brisavoine said:


> If that's so, the Belgians would never have revolted against the Dutch. Probably you've missed something somewhere.
> 
> Yeah, yeah, it's all the fault of the French, as usual! :laugh:


The south had more people than the north (believe it or not), so having the same number of seats was underrepresentation.


----------



## brisavoine

^^Et voilà !


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I fail to see what that has to do with France. French maybe but not France


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Oy.

There was a correlation between the rebellion in France in 1830 (the one that is the background for Les Misérables) and the one a couple of months later that led to the rebellion, and eventually the independence, of Belgium. (A correlation on the level of the sort of rolling revolts in Arab countries that began in January, nothing more.)

From what I've read, saying that the rebels were exiles from France is an exaggeration, to put it mildly. But the French were certainly happy to see the United Netherlands - which the British and their allies, post-Napoleon, intended as a buffer to France - break up.

All of which is off topic, of course, but that's what happens when one discusses Belgium....


----------



## brisavoine

Penn's Woods said:


> There was a correlation between the rebellion in France in 1830


It's not a rebellion, Sire, it's a revolution.


----------



## Godius

Penn's Woods said:


> The south had more people than the north (believe it or not), so having the same number of seats was underrepresentation.


You are missing out the fact that the northern people payed significantly more tax than the southern people. The northern part were the driving force of the economy at the time (1814). Also religious (Catholic/Protestant) disagreements played a role in this incredibly difficult complex of facts. 

These are some reasons why there was chosen for equal representation.


Of course it would turn out to be nonsense to expect a "l'amalgame le plus parfait"

When you compare the situation of then with nowadays Belgium, you can see problems of similar nature (Flanders / Wallonia).


----------



## brisavoine

Godius said:


> You are missing out the fact that the northern people payed significantly more tax than the southern people. The northern part were the driving force of the economy at the time (1814).


This is getting better and better. :lol:

Didn't they teach you in school that Wallonia (and French Flanders) was by far the most developped part of the Low Countries until WW2? The Netherlands and (Belgian) Flanders were backward and underdevelopped compared to Wallonia and French Flanders, which is why so many (Belgian) Flemings migrated to Wallonia and French Flanders.

So it's quite unlikely that most taxes were paid by the Dutch. It's far most likely that most taxes came from Wallonia (which wasn't called that way at the time anyway, it was called simply "Belgium", people didn't distinguish between Flanders and "Wallonia").

Anyway, what's with this pervasive idea among Dutch-speakers that they are always the ones paying more taxes? :bash: :nuts:


----------



## brisavoine

For the naysayers, some data from Professor Paul Bairoch of the University of Geneva in _Histoire économique et sociale du monde du XVIè siècle à nos jours_.

Industrial production per inh in 1830 (base 100, where 100 is the industrial production per inh of the UK in 1900):
Netherlands: 9
Belgium: 14 (and much higher in Wallonia proper)

Industrial production per inh in 1860:
Netherlands: 11
Belgium: 28 (and much higher in Wallonia proper)

Industrial production per inh in 1880:
Netherlands: 14
Belgium: 43 (and much higher in Wallonia proper)

Industrial production per inh in 1913:
Netherlands: 28
Belgium: 88 (and much higher in Wallonia proper)


----------



## Godius

brisavoine said:


> This is getting better and better. :lol:
> 
> Didn't they teach you in school that Wallonia (and French Flanders) was by far the most developped part of the Low Countries until WW2? The Netherlands and (Belgian) Flanders were backward and underdevelopped compared to Wallonia and French Flanders, which is why so many (Belgian) Flemings migrated to Wallonia and French Flanders.
> 
> So it's quite unlikely that most taxes were paid by the Dutch. It's far most likely that most taxes came from Wallonia (which wasn't called that way at the time anyway, it was called simply "Belgium", people didn't distinguish between Flanders and "Wallonia").
> 
> Anyway, what's with this pervasive idea among Dutch-speakers that they are always the ones paying more taxes? :bash: :nuts:


You are talking about the industrial sector which is a highly fluctuating economy. It's a fact that you can't get much tax from factory workers.
Flanders (and the Netherlands) had a wide economy, that turned out much better for long term planning. 
I think al small countries should have wide and open economies, not depending on a solely industrialized economy (not healthy at all).

The state-revenues were used to highly improve infrastructure in the southern part. Flanders/Wallonia profited hugely from this infrastructure projects, mostly financed by the Northern wealth (Also not to mention: colonial yields).

There was a sense of community but for the most part is was cleverly, bit by bit, affected by Parisian revolutionaries that were exiled in France. :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Q: Does/Do your country/ies have signs for cities in neighbouring countries? 
A: We talk about taxes


----------



## Muttie

Sign for Ceuta (Sebta), Spain - on the Moroccan A1.


----------



## brisavoine

ChrisZwolle said:


> Q: Does/Do your country/ies have signs for cities in neighbouring countries?
> A: We talk about taxes


The beauty of Skyscrapercity.


----------



## brisavoine

Godius, frankly, you shouldn't talk about things you don't seem to know anything about. It's annoying to read factually wrong statements after factualy wrong statements.


Godius said:


> It's a fact that you can't get much tax from factory workers.


The taxes didn't come from the workers (no income tax back then!), but from capital taxes (paid by the bosses) and taxes on merchandise.


Godius said:


> The state-revenues were used to highly improve infrastructure in the southern part.


The state revenues coming in a large measure from Wallonia were used in a large measure to improve the port of Antwerp and build the canal between Antwerp and Brussels. Both of which are not exactly located in Wallonia...


----------



## Godius

brisavoine said:


> Godius, frankly, you shouldn't talk about things you don't seem to know anything about. It's annoying to read factually wrong statements after factualy wrong statements.
> 
> The taxes didn't come from the workers (no income tax back then!), but from capital taxes (paid by the bosses) and taxes on merchandise.
> 
> The state revenues coming in a large measure from Wallonia were used in a large measure to improve the port of Antwerp and build the canal between Antwerp and Brussels. Both of which are not exactly located in Wallonia...


I can refute your arguments, a specially your last argument, in this topic. 
But maybe it is better to start a new thread and respect the topic starter his thread. 
Contact me if you are in favor of this idea, maybe we can start a thread about this discussion together.


----------



## alserrod

Muttie said:


> Sign for Ceuta (Sebta), Spain - on the Moroccan A1.



A very strange detail.

When I watched the photo I asked myself which city was signales abroad. I needed to read the explains to know it was "Ceuta".

It is the problem with the Arabic-Roman alphabeths... we write them "like it sounds" and Sebta seems too different.

The "C" at Ceuta is pronounced like the TH at "think". 
So compare CE-U-TA with SEB-TA

I am sure that any Arabic speaker will not need translation into Roman characters
And any speaker of any language with Roman characters maybe will do not understand the translation as well as he will find Ceuta in all maps.


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## DanielFigFoz

I think that they would understand if they were expecting it


----------



## alserrod

A driver who speaks Arabic do not need the translation

A driver who doesn't speak Arabic will not need a translation according like it sounds but the name it will appear in Roman alphabeth.

We are not talking about only languages but alphabeths too.


----------



## CasaMor

^^ Sebta is the moroccan name of Ceuta (spanish name). Since Morocco is claiming the city, they will not put its spanish name. The city is considered part of Morocco here. 

2 more pictures I made:


----------



## alserrod

Taking away territorial reasons, I think the translation is not useful for drivers.

Most of them will go there to get a ferry.

How many of them will have a ticket "Sebta-Algeciras"?

Will a not Arabic speaker driver be looking for Ceuta or for Sebta?

There are many cases where they write the name in one language and in the map you find in other language. It is not "usually" problem if names are similar. When they are very different ones the problem can begin.

But here we have a case where there is a bilingual? signal. 
"bilingual?" because cities are translated to French except Ceuta that it is translated like it sounds. That city has not translation into French.


----------



## CasaMor

alserrod said:


> Taking away territorial reasons, I think the translation is not useful for drivers.
> 
> Most of them will go there to get a ferry.
> 
> *How many of them will have a ticket "Sebta-Algeciras"?*
> 
> Will a not Arabic speaker driver be looking for Ceuta or for Sebta?
> 
> There are many cases where they write the name in one language and in the map you find in other language. It is not "usually" problem if names are similar. When they are very different ones the problem can begin.
> 
> But here we have a case where there is a bilingual? signal.
> "bilingual?" because cities are translated to French except Ceuta that it is translated like it sounds. That city has not translation into French.


Moroccans do not take the ferry from Sebta anymore. Tanger Med port is now connected to our national highway network. Taking the ferry from/to Sebta = losing time. 

I understand what you're saying but in Morocco we only use arabic and french. In arabic and french we read it Sebta. In Spain they put arabic signs for Tangier and Algeciras for moroccans. In nothern Morocco they have signs in spanish for the spanish tourists. Maybe it's a political thing for the highway signs (maybe they refuse to use the spanish name). :dunno:


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## DanielFigFoz

I still think that Sebta is understandable if you're looking for a sign to Ceuta


----------



## alserrod

In the opposite side the signals only say "Marruecos"... but there are only two points to cross the border and you decide... the Mediterranean or the Atlantic border. Less than 6 km between them.


----------



## alserrod

At viamichelin.fr all Moroccan cities are written in French but Ceuta is write like it.


----------



## CasaMor

alserrod said:


> In the opposite side the signals only say "Marruecos"... but *there are only two points to cross the border and you decide... the Mediterranean or the Atlantic border.* Less than 6 km between them.


What??? 



alserrod said:


> At viamichelin.fr all Moroccan cities are written in French but Ceuta is write like it.


Ceuta is the international name. :dunno: We use Sebta only in Morocco. The same for Melilla, it's moroccan name is Melilia.


----------



## alserrod

I mean that there are only two custom borders at Ceuta, which connects with P-4703 and N-13
(at Melilla there are four)


This is why obviously anywhere you go outside the city is Morocco and you can choose only the point to cross the border. In the signal it appears the international border (it is usual to put it 1 km before in all Spanish roads)... but in general they should put the name of the border or the name of the nearest city after it.


----------



## alserrod

And... as I said... Andorra only writes Espanya and França. In fact they have only those two borders... and four main roads, so everyone knows which direction they are taken if going to France or to Spain (or CG-3, CG-4 which goes to the interior)


----------



## CasaMor

alserrod said:


> I mean that there are only two custom borders at Ceuta, which connects with P-4703 and N-13
> (at Melilla there are four)
> 
> 
> This is why obviously anywhere you go outside the city is Morocco and you can choose only the point to cross the border. In the signal it appears the international border (it is usual to put it 1 km before in all Spanish roads)... but in general they should put the name of the border or the name of the nearest city after it.


There's only one crossing point called Bab Sebta (Puerta de Ceuta).


----------



## alserrod

I answer in the Border thread


----------



## alserrod

Motorway Madrid-Vigo has a point only 15 km away from Portugal.

In that point there is a cross to another motorway for entering Portugal and connecting its network.

In the cross, the signal indicates only the first Portuguese city you will find (nothing related to the border, to "Portugal" only, or to the city located in the border). 
They just write a "P" after the name of the city.


http://maps.google.es/?ll=41.914605...=d-50dJh9x5jGoDyaL43OsA&cbp=12,244.87,,0,-8.5


----------



## Verso

^^ I've never seen ovals in Spain. Are there any other?


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## alserrod

I must say that it is the first oval I see.

The motorway is the main to fo from southern Galicia to almost, almost any other point of Spain but passes just very close to Portugal and there is a little motorway, half in each country, to connect different motorways.

As I said, instead of writting "Portugal" or a little town near the border, they wrote the name of the main cross when you arrive inside Portugal.

But it is the first oval I see in Spain.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Indeed, both Portugal and Spain have now started to sign cities in neighbouring countries, Portugal starting from the new A4 extension which is partly finished. I'll find some photos, although from quite far away its still ESPANHA. 

Heres one:

Puebla de Sanabira's in Spain, although the signs on the motorway in the distance still say ESPANHA, avoidance of double Spain as 









This shows ESPANHA
Miranda do Douro
Zamora










Photos from Alberto C


----------



## Corvinus

Germany has a lot of signs showing cities in neighbouring countries.

Here is one on the B419 federal road. The houses behind the trees are in Luxembourg.


----------



## -Pino-

Ah, the B419: constructed by Goebbels to give his panzers quick access to Lorraine. No wonder Metz and Thionville have always been signposted along the route :angel1:


----------



## Vignole

Junction between C-66 and AP-7 in Catalonia, Spain. The owner of this sign is the Generalitat de Catalunya, so Perpignan is written in Catalan: Perpinyà.



Junction between C-25 and A-2. Because of the proximity with A-2 Autovia, the owner is the Spanish Ministerio de Fomento, so Perpignan is written in its official form.



Near to Figueres, Spanish sign. Trough N-II you'll read "França" in Catalan. But if you exit to AP-7 you'll go to Perpignan.



Few meters after the exit, "França" desapears and apears again Perpignan and La Jonquera.



But if you enter the roundabout from the Catalan road C-26 (old GIV-5128), you'll read Perpinyà.


----------



## GROBIN

^^

Some progress have been done, but it would've been better to write simply "*Perpinyà (Perpignan) (F)*". Good progress anyway ! Last time I went to Spain (May 2008), it said "*Francia*" everywhere except ... in the city of Zaragoza (where you could read "*Pau*" !!!). But still, the oval should be more widespread in Portugal, Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands & here in France, where you can see "*SARAGOSSE*" instead of "*SARAGOSSE/ZARAGOZA (E)*" or "*GAND*" instead of "*GAND/GENT*" (B) for instance.

Germany is not perfect either, especially on motorways. Just before Berlin, at the junction between A2 and A10 (Dreieck Werder I think), you have a roadsign that shows "*Warschau*"(instead of *Warschau/Warszawa (PL)*) to the right & "*Stettin*" (instead of *Stettin/Szczecin* straight) with no oval. No oval either for "*Breslau/Wrocław*", "*Venlo*", "*Lüttich/Liège*", *Paris*, *Straßburg* (should be *Straßburg/Strasbourg (F) *) either. Only an oval seen towards *Pilsen (CZ) *(although they should've written "*Pilsen/Plzeň (CZ)*".


----------



## Foolish Farmer

once again: Republic of Kosovo


----------



## alserrod

GROBIN said:


> ^^
> 
> Some progress have been done, but it would've been better to write simply "*Perpinyà (Perpignan) (F)*". Good progress anyway ! Last time I went to Spain (May 2008), it said "*Francia*" everywhere except ... in the city of Zaragoza (where you could read "*Pau*" !!!). But still, the oval should be more widespread in Portugal, Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands & here in France, where you can see "*SARAGOSSE*" instead of "*SARAGOSSE/ZARAGOZA (E)*" or "*GAND*" instead of "*GAND/GENT*" (B) for instance.



the topic about using own language or the "official" language (that will be the one you will see on maps) is discused in other thread.

Nevertheless, the most important step is marking the city, not the country!!!!.

I've made the RN-134 / E-07 and no problem looking for Saragosse. First time I saw, I knew which direction marked.

About the city of Zaragoza, all signals you have seen are located INSIDE the city. The signals inside the city are done by the municipality. The signals on the motorway by the ministry (and except some exceptions on new roads, always pointing "Francia").

Zaragoza is "brothered" with several cities, one of them Pau... and the A-23/E-07 is pointed in anywhere of the city as "A-23 Huesca - Pau". Those signals are about four years old (or maybe five, but no more)

In the E-07, just before the entrance of Somport tunnel you can find the distances to Urdos, Oloron and Pau

http://maps.google.es/?ll=42.742884...noid=-napSAPv1M9wazUyb3RrvA&cbp=12,54,,0,5.66


but some metres before, in the last cross before the tunnel you can choose between going left to "Francia por puerto, Canfranc estacion, Candanchú / Astún": France by mountain pass, Canfranc estacion (the name of the village), Candanchu / Astun (two important ski resorts, the first of them the oldest in Spain and only 1 km away from border) or... going strait on "Francia por túnel de Somport" (France by Somport tunnel). Here there is no confussion... tunnel is ahead!!!!


----------



## GROBIN

^^
I know that part you're talking about as I've been several times to Oloron-Sainte-Marie, from where I drove to San Sebastián/Donostia, Pamplona/Iruña, Sos del Rey Católico & Madrid via Zaragoza. & I remember the sign at the entrance of the Somport tunnel. The only one from Spain that showed "*OLORON-SAINTE-MARIE*".

The funniest part was:
A) showing "*LA PIEDRA SAN MARTÍN*" at the A-137/N-240 crossroad ! :lol: (it standed for "LA PIERRE-SAINT-MARTIN"
B) getting out of Iruña/Pamplona, I suddenly felt awkward as I had ... "*FRANCIA*" to the right & "*FRANCIA*" to the left. First time I chose wrong (back through San Sebastián/Donostia & Hendaye), the second time, the GPS chose for me (driving during the night on these curvy roads on the Spanish side to Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port would've been completely crazy).

Btw - I found the mountain roads MUCH BETTER on the Spanish side than on the French side. Wider, better signed, with less dangerous 180° curves! I felt as if France were a "old & tired" country ("vieux et fatigué", as one of our politicians told once about another )



alserrod said:


> the topic about using own language or the "official" language (that will be the one you will see on maps) is discused in other thread.
> (...)


Which one ???



Foolish Farmer said:


> once again: Republic of Kosovo


I think this way of signing (similar to HR & SLO ones) is the best option & should be chosen by the rest of Europe. Using only endonyms (like in Poland - where they should sign "*Drezno/Dresden (D)*" or "*Wilno/Vilnius (LT)*" and not only "*Dresden (D)*" or "*Vilnius (LT)*" alone, the Czech Republic - where they should sign "*VRATISLAV/WROCŁAW (PL)*" & not only "*WROCŁAW (PL)*" or Slovakia, where they should sign "*REŠOV/RZESZÓW (PL)*" instead of "*RZESZOW (PL)*") or only exonyms is insufficient & ... less attractive for tourists


----------



## Vignole

GROBIN said:


> I think this way of signing (similar to HR & SLO ones) is the best option & should be chosen by the rest of Europe. Using only endonyms (like in Poland - where they should sign "*Drezno/Dresden (D)*" or "*Wilno/Vilnius (LT)*" and not only "*Dresden (D)*" or "*Vilnius (LT)*" alone, the Czech Republic - where they should sign "*VRATISLAV/WROCŁAW (PL)*" & not only "*WROCŁAW (PL)*" or Slovakia, where they should sign "*REŠOV/RZESZÓW (PL)*" instead of "*RZESZOW (PL)*") or only exonyms is insufficient & ... less attractive for tourists


I totally agree.


----------



## mapman:cz

I don't, using endonyms is suficient enough. Exonyms are spoken in general language, but they are not used (in most cases) on official documents and therefore they should not be used on signs as well. The only exemption I can point out is in the case of a bilingual city, that has more than one official language. Then those cities might be signed in both languages. Signs generally need to be readable and understandable even at high speeds and adding unnecessary information on it is not a good idea (not to mention additional costs of these solutions regarding the size of such a sign).


----------



## Vignole

Another example between Spain and France.

This is in Molló, in the Catalan road C-38. Espinavell is in Spain and Prats de Molló (Prats-de-Mollo-la-Preste) an Ceret (Céret) in France.



In the other side of the Col d'Ares, in Prats-de-Mollo-la-Preste. Camprodon and Ripoll are in Spain.


----------



## Corvinus

A96 at Lindau (D): Bregenz (A) together with two decals signed
This is the _Dreiländereck _("Three countries region") at Lake Constance ...


----------



## marmurr1916

Well obviously Ireland outdoes all other countries, since it's got the name of cities in a foreign country signposted in its capital city! :cheers:

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=dublin...Oz6qgHxjWTy3fGwv76xOtA&cbp=12,227.74,,0,-3.93

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=dublin...=l5sNkHbFShypPdHEU9iL8g&cbp=12,100.83,,1,1.32


----------



## odlum833

marmurr1916 said:


> Well obviously Ireland outdoes all other countries, since it's got the name of cities in a foreign country signposted in its capital city! :cheers:
> 
> http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=dublin...Oz6qgHxjWTy3fGwv76xOtA&cbp=12,227.74,,0,-3.93
> 
> http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=dublin...=l5sNkHbFShypPdHEU9iL8g&cbp=12,100.83,,1,1.32



We don't regard the North of Ireland as "foreign" and that is why cites are shown. Dublin is shown in the North too.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Indeed, alongside the historical-politcal reasons for that, there what many non-British or Irish would consider to be a rather strange relationship, legally, between the two countries, i.e Irish and British citizenship is pretty much the same thing, Irish people in the UK can vote and vice-versa.

Technically the British Government does really consider Commonwealth citizens to be foreign although they do not use the term in that case, hence the 'Foreign and Commonwealth Office' and my passport says 'Foreign or Commonwealth countries' or something like that, which is the opposite of the case with the Republic whose citizens are officially regarded as 'foreign' but not treated as such.


----------



## Zach89

*ALGERIA*

Yes, for Morocco :























_At the border_ : 
































*SSCA*


----------



## Verso

marmurr1916 said:


> Well obviously Ireland outdoes all other countries, since it's got the name of cities in a foreign country signposted in its capital city! :cheers:


That's very common, especially in small countries.


----------



## Palance

Zach89 said:


> Yes, for Morocco :
> 
> At the border :


Why signposting - even on new signs - when that border is closed?


----------



## GROBIN

Palance said:


> Why signposting - even on new signs - when that border is closed?


Hope makes those signs live  (from the French proverb: "l'espoir fait vivre")


----------



## Zach89

Edit


----------



## Palance

Are there any countries in the world, which are not islands, which do not have any cities in other countries on their signs? AFAIK even an isolated country like North-Korea should have at least one sign for Seoul.


----------



## x-type

Palance said:


> Are there any countries in the world, which are not islands, which do not have any cities in other countries on their signs? AFAIK even an isolated country like North-Korea should have at least one sign for Seoul.


do you think that one could pass Korean border so easy? i even think it is prohibited.


----------



## Palance

I didn't write about the possibility of passing the border, just about signposting cities in neighbouring countries. Crossing borders is discussed in an other thread


----------



## -Pino-

Since both Koreas claim the entire peninsula, it would not be odd to find signs on either side of the border that ignore the DMZ. Comparable in a way to the state of denial in former West-Germany with its signs to towns well East of the Oder-Neisse line.

As to countries not signposting countries that it shares a land border with, I think that you will find countries that do not signpost cities. Even in countries like Spain, signs often turn to the name of the neighbouring country rather than the name of any city in the neighbouring country. Outside of Europe, I have seen signs being restricted to a reference to the border, e.g. "Friendship Bridge" around Vientiane in Laos to describe the bridge that crosses into Thailand. Crossing from Guatemala into Belize, I cannot even recall any signposting for the border. Signs went to the village sitting on the border and then the signs just stopped. Back from Belize into Guate was not much better.


----------



## cougar1989

Had West Germany towns from East Germany (DDR) on there signs or only (West)Berlin?
Had East Germany towns from West Germany on there sings like München Transit BRD or only Tranist BRD?
At the internet I found only a picture with Transit VR Polen and Westberlin


----------



## x-type

Palance said:


> I didn't write about the possibility of passing the border, just about signposting cities in neighbouring countries. Crossing borders is discussed in an other thread


what would be purpose of signint Seoul in Pyongyang, if noone could reach it?


this sign from GDR is fantastic! can somebody post exact location?


----------



## cougar1989

x-type said:


> this sign from GDR is fantastic! can somebody post exact location?


I think that is "Autobahndreieck Nuthetal". 
http://goo.gl/maps/mfSEf
There is a picture from today


----------



## Corvinus

cougar1989 said:


> Had East Germany towns from West Germany on there sings like München Transit BRD or only Tranist BRD?


There were some such signs (named "Transit BRD / Nürnberg" or "Transit BRD: Frankfurt a.M."), but not many! They did not want local population (especially wanna-be defectors) to find their way easily.


----------



## cougar1989

At GDR-Times there were Tranist CSSR Praha on the signs and Transit Westberlin, too.








At the Last Exit in GDR there were no western towns on the signs, only this:








GDR-People who couldn't travel to Westberlin or West Germany had to leave the motorway at the last exit


----------



## Zagor666

I like the old Rostock and Schwerin signs :cheers: the old looks better anyway


----------



## italystf

cougar1989 said:


> At GDR-Times there were Tranist CSSR Praha on the signs and Transit Westberlin, too.


Is the pavement made of concrete, like the first pre-war autobahnnen?
Why GDR had a lot of motorways while other commies countries didn't?


----------



## Road_UK

These signs look somehow Austrian.


----------



## cougar1989

italystf said:


> Is the pavement made of concrete, like the first pre-war autobahnnen?


It is from the German Wikipedia
The network initially only consisted of the former Reichsautobahnen. Only at the end of the 1950s the Government decided to build new connections. Partly, inferior building materials were used so that even new lines already were again in need of clean-up after a short time. Repairs were carried out often only partly due to lack of material.
Sorry, I translated it with Bing Translator


----------



## Palance

-Pino- said:


> As to countries not signposting countries that it shares a land border with, I think that you will find countries that do not signpost cities. Even in countries like Spain, signs often turn to the name of the neighbouring country rather than the name of any city in the neighbouring country. Outside of Europe, I have seen signs being restricted to a reference to the border, e.g. "Friendship Bridge" around Vientiane in Laos to describe the bridge that crosses into Thailand. Crossing from Guatemala into Belize, I cannot even recall any signposting for the border. Signs went to the village sitting on the border and then the signs just stopped. Back from Belize into Guate was not much better.


On the road from Ras al Khaimah toward Oman, only "Border crossing to the Sultanate of Oman" is signed, so not really Oman, and not the towns in that part at all. On the other hand, on the E44 eastbound there are some rare signs with Muscat of Mascar on it. Signs with "Oman" are less rare.

Albania until the end of the 80's would be a good candidate I think. And some years after the war in Croatia, there was no sign for Serbia or Montenegro or cities in those countries to be found. There was also the situation that a traveller could reach a border crossing without any notice.


----------



## vladanng

even today, althougt in Belgrade there is sings to Zagreb in Croatia, which is 400km away, in Zagreb there are no signs for Belgrade, but to some villages and medium size cities in Croatia, in rest countries, in Macedonia there are signs for Belgrade, and it was interesting to see sign to Belgrade in Greece, there are signs for Belgrade in Bulgaria i think, in Bosnia also im not sure, in Montenegro, even on Kosovo, we in Serbia have signs for Budapest, Sofia, Skopje, Thesaloniki, Zagreb, Sarajevo, i mean all capital cities in countries in region


----------



## Corvinus

italystf said:


> Why GDR had a lot of motorways while other commies countries didn't?


B/c 
1) they inherited a lot of Third Reich roads (and other facilities). Of course, these achievements of the Third Reich weren't emphasized in Commie propaganda
2) West Germany and West Berlin had a vital interest in efficient transit traffic, so important amounts of West German subsidies also poured into GDR road construction


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Palance said:


> Are there any countries in the world, which are not islands, which do not have any cities in other countries on their signs? AFAIK even an isolated country like North-Korea should have at least one sign for Seoul.


Portugal :lol:. As you can see two pages ago, the sole sign with a Spanish city on it has been taken down.


----------



## beto_chaves

^^
In Miranda do Douro, near the portuguese-spanish border you can find standard portugueses signs with indication for 3 different spanish cities: Madrid, Salamanca and Zamora. They're indicated as if they were portuguese cities...


----------



## DanielFigFoz

beto_chaves said:


> ^^
> In Miranda do Douro, near the portuguese-spanish border you can find standard portugueses signs with indication for 3 different spanish cities: Madrid, Salamanca and Zamora. They're indicated as if they were portuguese cities...


Are you talking about the ones that were taken down or are there mire in that area?


----------



## Zagor666

cougar1989 said:


> Had West Germany towns from East Germany (DDR) on there signs or only (West)Berlin?
> Had East Germany towns from West Germany on there sings like München Transit BRD or only Tranist BRD?
> At the internet I found only a picture with Transit VR Polen and Westberlin


This picture is now my desktop backround :cheers:


----------



## urbanfan89

Palance said:


> Are there any countries in the world, which are not islands, which do not have any cities in other countries on their signs? AFAIK even an isolated country like North-Korea should have at least one sign for Seoul.











Located at the northern end of the DMZ

Green sign reads "Seoul 70 km"


----------



## urbanfan89

http://maps.google.com/?ll=40.16230...331925&cbp=12,0,,0,0&z=13&photoid=po-13239476

Located in Dandong, China, on the border with North Korea

Yalujiang Bridge is main crossing point into North Korea


----------



## -Pino-

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^If that's Tervuren on the Flemish side of the road (as GMaps tells me it is), that's not a facilities area. Yes, it's weird that I know that.


Yes I have to stand corrected there. If you look at other facilities areas in Brussels, the situation is much more diverse. In Wezembeek-Oppem, there are "no entry" signs with the bilingual addition that cyclists are exempt, but unilingual directional signs. In Sint-Genesius-Rode, things seem to be completely bilingual. Would need to check elsewhere.

As I mentioned, this is a point where the language laws do not seem to offer a lot of guidance.


----------



## Road_UK

Quite frankly, they should grow up, abolish these ridiculous language laws and get a life together. They can in Switzerland or Luxembourg, so why not in Belgium.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Road_UK said:


> Quite frankly, they should grow up, abolish these ridiculous language laws and get a life together. They can in Switzerland or Luxembourg, so why not in Belgium.


Because in Switzerland, neither of the two sides was once oppressed by the other side and seen as second or even third class citizens. The language border is the result of Flemish speakers rising against the French speakers and no longer taking opression of their language for granted. But that's offtopic here.


----------



## alserrod

Is possible to go from North Korea to South Korea or border passes remain closed to traffic?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> Quite frankly, they should grow up, abolish these ridiculous language laws and get a life together. They can in Switzerland or Luxembourg, so why not in Belgium.


Switzerland is linguistically divided too. I mean, you're not going to see tri- (or quadri-) lingual parking regulation signs everywhere; they'll be in French in Geneva and German in Basel.... The boundaries have to fall somewhere.


----------



## italystf

Penn's Woods said:


> Switzerland is linguistically divided too. I mean, you're not going to see tri- (or quadri-) lingual parking regulation signs everywhere; they'll be in French in Geneva and German in Basel.... The boundaries have to fall somewhere.


Well, in border areas signs should be multilingual. Or at least local language + English, so they're also useful for tourists from everywhere.


----------



## Verso

Macedonicus said:


> The road sign is in Ohrid, Macedonia.


Solun (Thessaloniki), Voden (Edessa) and Lerin (Florina) with MK instead of GR. hno:


----------



## Zagor666

Verso said:


> Solun (Thessaloniki), Voden (Edessa) and Lerin (Florina) with MK instead of GR. hno:


That´s cool :colgate:
But its a interesting thing cause this is not a joke or some kind of a protest sing on a demonstration for or against something but a official roadsign :cheers: that show´s us that Mecedonians are officialy cool :cheers:


----------



## Macedonicus

Gag Halfrunt said:


> Strange to see Belgrade written only in English when most people driving from Ohrid to Belgrade are bound to be Macedonian or Serbian.


The new road signs use only English with the International Code for cities outside Macedonia.


----------



## Macedonicus

Verso said:


> Solun (Thessaloniki), Voden (Edessa) and Lerin (Florina) with MK instead of GR. hno:


Well it's technically true  They are in MK


----------



## Verso

Macedonicus said:


> The new road signs use only English with the International Code for cities outside Macedonia.


But once you cross the Serbian border, you'll only see "Beograd" on signs, not "Belgrade".



Macedonicus said:


> Well it's technically true  They are in MK


But "MK" is the code of the Republic of Macedonia, not of the Greek Macedonia.


----------



## Macedonicus

Verso said:


> But once you cross the Serbian border, you'll only see "Beograd" on signs, not "Belgrade".
> 
> But "MK" is the code of the Republic of Macedonia, not of the Greek Macedonia.


Those are the old signs. The new signs placed on the Corridor X (E-75) are and will be using the new system.

And yes, MK is the code of Macedonia.


----------



## skyduster

^^

What exactly is the "new system"? Will it correctly identify the country of downroad cities?

Old or new, the sign pictured is disturbing and scary. 

As Verso pointed out [and name politics aside], this sign implies that these cities are in the _Republic_ of Macedonia.

And P.S. ...I'm not one who really cares for the name politics, so let's please not go down that road.


----------



## Macedonicus

skyduster said:


> ^^
> 
> What exactly is the "new system"? Will it correctly identify the country of downroad cities?
> 
> Old or new, the sign pictured is disturbing and scary.
> 
> As Verso pointed out [and name politics aside], this sign implies that these cities are in the _Republic_ of Macedonia.
> 
> And P.S. ...I'm not one who really cares for the name politics, so let's please not go down that road.


The new system includes the diagraphic transliteration of the names so you won't see the diacritics on the signs any more and the International Country code next to every European capital which will be only available in English, not in Macedonian. So Belgrade is the English name for _Beograd_ and that's why it is used like that.
About the "MK" code next to Lerin, Solun and Voden, I'm not very sure why did they do that but in Lerin and Voden the majority are Macedonians (ethnic) and the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia have a lot of relatives in the Aegean Macedonia (part of the hellenic republic) so if they put the names as Eddesa or Florina, our citizens wouldn't know which cities they are.


----------



## Dolph

WOW, the Macedonian road sign is pure political propaganda,provocation and outright illegal.Naming a town of another nation for yours hno:
What will stop them to make the same with the Bulgarian towns Blagoevgrad/Petrich/Sandanski...for which Rep. of Macedonia have claims.

I'm trying to picture this happening in Western Europe between France and Germany or Germany and Austria :lol:


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^The example that came to mind for me was Northern Ireland.


----------



## Dolph

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^The example that came to mind for me was Northern Ireland.


Probably there a provocation like this will be deadly :nuts:


----------



## Penn's Woods

Actually, I do have a question for anyone who knows the answer:

Does Ireland (the Republic) post Irish/Gaelic versions of place names in the North? (And, more provocatively, do they post "Londonderry" or "Derry"?)


----------



## Verso

^^ I don't know about Irish/Gaelic names, but I'm sure they write "Derry" on their signs.


----------



## -Pino-

Below a (West-)German sign that was very much a political statement too. It stood at the former internal border at Helmstedt. Did not go quite as far as adding (D)-shields to it, but the message was clear nonetheless. I'm not sure when they removed it, by the way. Must have been well before the fall of the Berlin Wall ...


----------



## italystf

-Pino- said:


> Below a (West-)German sign that was very much a political statement too. It stood at the former internal border at Helmstedt. Did not go quite as far as adding (D)-shields to it, but the message was clear nonetheless. I'm not sure when they removed it, by the way. Must have been well before the fall of the Berlin Wall ...


Was possible to travel to those cities back then?


----------



## Palance

Penn's Woods said:


> Actually, I do have a question for anyone who knows the answer:
> 
> Does Ireland (the Republic) post Irish/Gaelic versions of place names in the North? (And, more provocatively, do they post "Londonderry" or "Derry"?)


There a signs for Beal Feirste (Belfast) on the N1, close to the border, as there are on the M1 further away from the border. They are visible on Maps.


----------



## Bothar.G

Penn's Woods said:


> Actually, I do have a question for anyone who knows the answer:
> 
> Does Ireland post Irish versions of place names in the North? (And, more provocatively, do they post "Londonderry" or "Derry"?)



Of course. But we never use the former on our signs, lol. We Irish never recognized it as that name and neither does our government.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Whoever vandalized that sign could at least have capitalized the D.


----------



## Bothar.G

^^

Maybe of they used the less controversial name (Derry), none of this would happen.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Oy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derry/Londonderry_name_dispute

There are a Derry and a Londonderry near each other in New Hampshire....
https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=42.870051,-71.340752&spn=0.070328,0.131664&t=m&z=13


----------



## Verso

Londond'ry. :troll: I think they should rename it back to Derry. It's in the UK anyway, so there's no need to provoke any more.


----------



## Bothar.G

There is currently street violence in parts of Belfast between Republicans and Loyalists. I presume you are aware of the history regarding the sovereignty issue over those six counties.


----------



## Metred

This is a highway heading to the Spanish-French border, in the Basque region; the signs just read "France", and do not display any information about neighbouring cities:


















And however, not very far from there, signs on secondary roads do display info about the cities at the other side of the border:


----------



## Cpt.Iglo

A28 Dreieck Oldenburg-West (D):



















After exit Oldenburg - Wechloy:










Source: *http://roadgeek.hostzi.com/* (Too bad that Germany hasn't got streetview..)

A28 / N7 Groningen:



















I'm not sure if there is any sign with the distance to Oldenburg at the N7.


----------



## zsmg

Metred said:


> This is a highway heading to the Spanish-French border, in the Basque region; the signs just read "France", and do not display any information about neighbouring cities:


I recall seeing signs on the AP-8 which said Bayonne and Bordeaux (in exonym of course) instead of France, mind you this was 10 years ago or so.


----------



## Road_UK

Yes, I think there is, or at least was a sign for Paris as well.


----------



## Jonesy55

Verso said:


> Londond'ry. :troll: I think they should rename it back to Derry. It's in the UK anyway, so there's no need to provoke any more.


The BBC tends to use both names alternately to keep both sides happy. I wonder if RTE in Ireland has a similar policy :dunno:


----------



## CNGL

zsmg said:


> I recall seeing signs on the AP-8 which said Bayonne and Bordeaux (in exonym of course) instead of France, mind you this was 10 years ago or so.


Yup, they have signed Bayonne (As Baiona, which is the other way round in Galicia, Northwestern Spain) and Bordeaux on E05/E70/E80. But in the other hand, they still sign France at the very last roundabout on A-136, which is already by the border... It's too difficult to write Laruns? :bash::bash:


----------



## philimonas

Macedonicus said:


> The new system includes the diagraphic transliteration of the names so you won't see the diacritics on the signs any more and the International Country code next to every European capital which will be only available in English, not in Macedonian. So Belgrade is the English name for _Beograd_ and that's why it is used like that.
> About the "MK" code next to Lerin, Solun and Voden, I'm not very sure why did they do that but in Lerin and Voden the majority are Macedonians (ethnic) and the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia have a lot of relatives in the Aegean Macedonia (part of the hellenic republic) so if they put the names as Eddesa or Florina, our citizens wouldn't know which cities they are.


Ignoring the part about ethnic Macedonian majority, how can it be logical, since when you enter Greece, Lerin will change to Florina and Voden will change to Edessa? So if they don't know the name, "your citizens" will be lost when they cross the border at Medzitlija/Niki, right? What about Thessaloniki? How come "Belgrade" makes more sense instead of "Beograd" (since Beograd is the same in both Macedonian and Serbian and it's what you will see when you enter Serbia), but the Greek cities have to be signed with their exonym?


----------



## Verso

^^ Belgrade is called "Belgrad" (Белград) in Macedonian.



Jonesy55 said:


> The BBC tends to use both names alternately to keep both sides happy. I wonder if RTE in Ireland has a similar policy :dunno:


Lol, you're everywhere.  The Irish don't have to keep Brits happy since the city is in their/your country anyway.


----------



## alserrod

CNGL said:


> Yup, they have signed Bayonne (As Baiona, which is the other way round in Galicia, Northwestern Spain) and Bordeaux on E05/E70/E80. But in the other hand, they still sign France at the very last roundabout on A-136, which is already by the border... It's too difficult to write Laruns? :bash::bash:




It seems

:bash::bash::bash::bash::bash::bash:


----------



## skyduster

Metred said:


> This is a highway heading to the Spanish-French border, in the Basque region; the signs just read "France", and do not display any information about neighbouring cities:


Plus, it's interesting that "France" is only in Basque, as opposed to both Basque and Castilian.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ I like to see a sign in Tallinn that says "Stockholm 0 km"


----------



## Penn's Woods

Off topic, but on the subject of the moment, does anyone know of a source that lists all currently-operating scheduled ferry services in and around Europe? (By "around Europe," I'm including to services to Iceland, the Canaries, etc., across the Mediterranean....)


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ I like to see a sign in Tallinn that says "Stockholm 0 km"


Yeah, ferry distance should definitely be included.


----------



## alserrod

Penn's Woods said:


> Off topic, but on the subject of the moment, does anyone know of a source that lists all currently-operating scheduled ferry services in and around Europe? (By "around Europe," I'm including to services to Iceland, the Canaries, etc., across the Mediterranean....)




Inside Canaries Fred Olsen, Transmediterranea and Naviera Armas.

I think that from Europe to Canaries only Transmediterranea... but I heard it was possible to make a Funchal-Gran Canaria. One mate had to move his car and was considering all options and one of them was a Faro-Funchal and Funchal-Gran Canaria. But I do not know with which company.


----------



## Road_UK

No links with Africa?


----------



## Verso

Penn's Woods said:


> Off topic, but on the subject of the moment, does anyone know of a source that lists all currently-operating scheduled ferry services in and around Europe? (By "around Europe," I'm including to services to Iceland, the Canaries, etc., across the Mediterranean....)


http://www.aferry.com/


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Cool! Thanks, Verso!


----------



## alserrod

Road_UK said:


> No links with Africa?


No, and to Europe only via Cadiz. Sometimes the same ferry arrives to Barcelona but it is not usual.

By plane there is a Gran Canaria-El Aaiun weekly though, but no other destinations in Morocco.

and nothing with other "neighbour" countries in western Africa.

Looking at the situation, they are seven islands that receive a lot of central Europe tourism, almost all goods they require are made there. There is no industry to export, and any goods you have to import will be easy to import them from any EU country than outside event if there is only 97 km from Fuerteventura island to Morocco (somewhere in the middle of nothing in Morocco... but continental Africa)


----------



## Palance

5 capital cities on one location (for our Serbian friends: 4  )


----------



## Verso

Impressive (although Athens isn't really necessary).


----------



## mapman:cz

Just out of curiosity, that's in Niš when coming form the aiport?


----------



## Zagor666

Palance said:


> 5 capital cities on one location (for our Serbian friends: 4  )


What you mean with Serbian Friends :cheers: more people does not recognize Kosovo as independant than they do


----------



## Arbenit

Zagor666 said:


> What you mean with Serbian Friends :cheers: more people does not recognize Kosovo as independant than they do


People individually do not recognize countries. Countries recognize countries. :cheers:


----------



## Verso

In Mali:









http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1014612/thumbs/r-ABDELHAMID-ABU-ZEID-large570.jpg?6


----------



## NordikNerd

Verso said:


> http://www.aferry.com/


This is not a reliable list.

Hirtshals-Stavanger ferry under the headline Iceland ?

Also listing a ferry Scotland-Iceland ??

The only connection to Iceland is from Hirtshals, DK. I don't know if there are ferries from Bergen, Norway.


----------



## Tachi

mapman:cz said:


> Just out of curiosity, that's in Niš when coming form the aiport?


It's Nis allright. But it's taken in the center. If you look carefully you see a white sign with aerodrom (airport) to the left, but you could make a u-turn and head west towards the airport


----------



## Skyland

*Koupéla, Burkina Faso (to Niger, Togo)*


----------



## OulaL

NordikNerd said:


> Also listing a ferry Scotland-Iceland ??
> 
> The only connection to Iceland is from Hirtshals, DK. I don't know if there are ferries from Bergen, Norway.


There used to be a service on Smyril Line from Bergen to Seydisfjördur. During the 2000's this service has also called either Scrabster on the GB main island or Lerwick on the Shetland islands (which administratively belong to Scotland as well). However, it was suspended around 2010.


----------



## NordikNerd

OulaL said:


> There used to be a service on Smyril Line from Bergen to Seydisfjördur. During the 2000's this service has also called either Scrabster on the GB main island or Lerwick on the Shetland islands (which administratively belong to Scotland as well). However, it was suspended around 2010.


I wonder if the Icelandic state is subsidizing their only ferry route, 500EUR to bring your car to Iceland one way is quite a lot of money, although cheap if you consider that the trip takes 66 hours. That is 7 EUR/hour. Rödby-Puttgarden takes 45 min and costs 70 EUR one way that's 93 EUR/hour outrageously expensive !!


----------



## JB1981

http://goo.gl/maps/U5CVT

A sign in France with 5 cities, all in Belgium.


----------



## Palance

Strange enough only one of them has the translation in Dutch - and IMHO all names should be in Dutch here (since Flanders is entered here), although one could argue about Brussels.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

The official Portuguese stance is that Olivença/Olivenza is in Portugal but it's not a well known dispute amongst the general population, apart from in Olivencza I suppose, and a dispute about which no one cares.


----------



## alserrod

Be sure that most of 99,5% of population do not know anything about the history of that town.
(In that region they would know, but outside there, almost nobody)


By the way... if you look at your picture there is another international sign in it!.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

alserrod said:


> Be sure that most of 99,5% of population do not know anything about the history of that town.
> (In that region they would know, but outside there, almost nobody)


Indeed.


----------



## -Pino-

Palance said:


> Strange enough only one of them has the translation in Dutch - and IMHO all names should be in Dutch here (since Flanders is entered here), although one could argue about Brussels.


In order to make it to Brussels from here, you'll need to follow signs that say Brussel, that's for sure. But it's not the way the French approach international signage. The use the French exonym and may then (space and interest permitting) add the endonym. So the sign reads as it should from the perspective of the French signposting rules; everything else is politics.


----------



## Zagor666

St.Moritz in Italy :cheers:



Milano,Domodossola from Switzerland 



Sargans,Feldkirch from Liechtenstein 



Bolzano from Austria 



Subotica,Arad from Hungary(1995) 



Luxembourg,Diekirch,Clervaux from Belgium 



Basel from Germany




Paris from Germany



Ljubljana from Austria



Ljubljana,Udine from Austria



could be that i postet some of this pictures earkier in this thread,but nevermind - i am old


----------



## alserrod

One photo I found in another thread


----------



## albertocsc

These cities (most are African, only one Italian) are posted in Spanish roads, but usually only near ports:

Tarifa - http://goo.gl/maps/qfuVO - Tangiers shown in entrance to port









Algeciras - http://goo.gl/maps/LW7cR - Tangiers shown in N-340









Almería - http://goo.gl/maps/QdZNI - Nador (Morocco), Oran (Algeria, but Spanish long ago), and Ghazaouet (Algeria, too), shown in entrance to port.









Alicante - http://goo.gl/maps/nGmTv - No city posted, just Algeria









Barcelona - http://goo.gl/maps/an1qz - Genoa posted near port









In Santander and Bilbao I only found "Ferry" posted, but no reference to Plymouth or Portsmouth. What I found in Bilbao was a "Drive on the right" sign for English arrivals, I posted it at border crossings thread.

In Gibraltar is the same, only "Ferry" posted, no Tangiers.


----------



## KRX_69

Cáceres and Badajoz (Spain) in IP2 signs (Portugal)


----------



## albertocsc

Romania, near the Moldovan border. No cities or country posted, just the customs (vama) checkpoint, Albița.


----------



## alserrod

Quite curious "Cáceres" because the accent over the A... is used for that word in Portuguese?

(even in Spanish, for Capital letters they are optional)


----------



## Corvinus

Swiss A13 motorway is running next to the border of Liechtenstein (with the Rhine in between), so from a number of its exits, you just drive over the Rhine bridge and there you are:


----------



## Verso

http://goo.gl/maps/MZ2eX

The only sign for Maribor (SLO) in Hungary that I'm aware of.


----------



## Palance

Herceg Novi from Croatia (near Prevlaka)


----------



## Verso

^^ "MNE" must be new, because I didn't find any in Croatia in Street View.


----------



## Palance

There are few:

On the D8 after the junction with the D223 (road to BiH), which is already on streetview. Then some crossings away there is another. And the next ones are here on the D516 and on signs for traffic coming from Gruda onto the D8 and the other side of the D516. In MNE there are also signs for Dubrovnik (even one near Tivat)

Dubronvik (HR) and Trebinje (BiH) in Herceg Novi (MNE)









Dubrovnik (HR), Nikšić (MNE) and Herceg Novi (MNE) from Trebinje (BiH). Note the oval CRO instead of HR.


----------



## Verso

^^ 42 km to "MNE".


----------



## Palance

At the exit of Dubrovnik Airport there is even a sign for Tivat


----------



## Deo

Poland:



lukaszek89 said:


> Hradek nad Nisou-Zittau, Czech Republic, Poland, Germany tripoint, bridge in Sieniawka was opened
> 
> CZ/PL-PL/DE border
> 
> border bridge in Sieniawka(PL-DE):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Verso

This one from Austria is a bit different from others. 









http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Arnoldstein_Riegersdorf_Wegkapelle_Wegweiser_nach_Laibach_20072012_884.jpg

Strasse nach Laibach - Road to Ljubljana


----------



## Alex_ZR

Stavros86 said:


> *Some photos from Greece:*


This sign might be confusing, because it says "Korytsa" which is Greek name for Korçë in Albania.


----------



## volodaaaa

Alex_ZR said:


> This sign might be confusing, because it says "Korytsa" which is Greek name for Korçë in Albania.


Sorry for an offtopic but it is really written in Arial? :lol:


----------



## Macedonicus

Zagor666 said:


> i can´t recognise on this sign in which country skopje lies? :cheers:


Well they can't put "MK" can they ? It's like going against themselves.


----------



## Skopje/Скопје

Zagor666 said:


> i can´t recognise on this sign in which country skopje lies? :cheers:


It's a country with various names, so the Greeks were wise enough not to put any of them :lol:


----------



## Skopje/Скопје

Some examples from Macedonia


----------



## volodaaaa

Macedonicus said:


> Well they can't put "MK" can they ? It's like going against themselves.


As I have seen, they usually put "-Skopia" after the name.


----------



## Alex_ZR

volodaaaa said:


> Sorry for an offtopic but it is really written in Arial? :lol:


Looks like Helvetica to me:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetica


----------



## volodaaaa

Alex_ZR said:


> Looks like Helvetica to me:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetica



You are right. The "Km" is also not according to SI. It should be written with small "km". Greeks also use kμ but μ is prefix for micro-.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Skopje/Скопје;106599253 said:


> Some examples from Macedonia
> 
> ....


I see we have a third option in the endonym/exonym debate: foreign cities in English.

(Incidentally, my spell-check apparently doesn't think "endonym" and "exonym" are English words....)


----------



## piotr71

Penn's Woods said:


> I see we have a third option in the endonym/exonym debate: foreign cities in English.


If it was a referendum about the third option, I'd vote NO!


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Glad to hear it.


----------



## Verso

Zagor666 said:


> i can´t recognise on this sign in which country skopje lies? :cheers:


----------



## ea1969

Apart from not using the MK designation, which I accept has a political purpose, all other silly things (Skopia, Skopja, Korytsa, Voulgaria etc.), are simply a result of signing made by idiots.

We have hundreds of wrong signs around the country (e.g. you have correctly spotted the fonts problem as well); the ones pointing to neighboring countries are just part of the problem.


----------



## volodaaaa

Verso said:


>


Although that country does not exist anymore, where exactly is the *point* named Yugoslavia located?:nuts:


----------



## piotr71

^^
Edit: Here, I suppose.


----------



## Alex_ZR

volodaaaa said:


> Although that country does not exist anymore, where exactly is the *point* named Yugoslavia located?:nuts:


I guess that point is the border of "Yugoslavia", today FYROM.


----------



## volodaaaa

Alex_ZR said:


> I guess that point is the border of "Yugoslavia", today FYROM.


Yeah, but which one?  AFAIK there are more than one border crossing.


----------



## ea1969

^^
Medžitlija-Niki (as stated by Piotr71).


----------



## volodaaaa

Yeah, but If I had been a foreigner in that times (without GPS, etc.), how would I have been supposed to know which one is that? It was really that difficult to note the nearest important city eg. Skopje, Veles, etc.?

It must have been really confusing regarding the overall area of Yugoslavia.


----------



## Stavros86

volodaaaa said:


> Sorry for an offtopic but it is really written in Arial? :lol:





Alex_ZR said:


> Looks like Helvetica to me:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetica


Volodaaaa, you are right, is not the correct lettering. Instead of DIN 1451, it uses Helvetica.
Actually, the whole sign is way off the national standards.




volodaaaa said:


> You are right. The "Km" is also not according to SI. It should be written with small "km". Greeks also use kμ but μ is prefix for micro-.


Regarding the kilometre abbreviation, usually it is in the correct form, that is, _km_. Τhat motorway sign is an exception. Additionally, sometimes, especially on old informatory signs or on road location markers, the Greek kilometre abbreviation _Χμ_ is used together with the English one in capital form, _Km_.
Up until now, I have never seen the _kμ_ that you mentioned.





volodaaaa said:


> Yeah, but If I had been a foreigner in that times (without GPS, etc.), how would I have been supposed to know which one is that? It was really that difficult to note the nearest important city eg. Skopje, Veles, etc.?
> 
> It must have been really confusing regarding the overall area of Yugoslavia.


It would be. But consider the fact that we are talking about a rather old traffic sign. It might not exist anymore.


----------



## piotr71

> Originally Posted by *volodaaaa*
> 
> Yeah, but If I had been a foreigner in that times (without GPS, etc.), how would I have been supposed to know which one is that? It was really that difficult to note the nearest important city eg. Skopje, Veles, etc.?
> 
> It must have been really confusing regarding the overall area of Yugoslavia.


It probably wasn't so complex challenge to find a right border crossing back then, because of the limited number of them.
It is still common practise in, say, Belgium to direct towards "Nederlande" or in France towards "Belgique"


----------



## Verso

If it's 22 km to Florina and in the same direction, what other border crossing could it be? I don't see any other, at least not important.


----------



## KingGenti

In RKS



















ALB

At border with MKD


----------



## KingGenti

Another one from motorway in Republic of Kosovo










This is in Albania.On this sign before was also 'Greece' but i dont know why it was removed and not replaced.


----------



## volodaaaa

What font does Kosovo officially use?


----------



## Alex_ZR

volodaaaa said:


> What font does Kosovo officially use?


motorway: same font as all former Yugoslavia use: SNV










Those blue ones are Helvetica.


----------



## Macedonicus

That moment when Kosovo has better road signs than Albania  
I think Kosovo and Macedonia have the same type


----------



## volodaaaa

Macedonicus said:


> That moment when Kosovo has better road signs than Albania
> I think Kosovo and Macedonia have the same type


Macedonia and Serbia has really good legible road signs. Especially, I like the one at Niš interchange with Thessaloniki destination :lol: Shame, that there is no oval attached. :cheers:










By the way, Belgrade is spelled Belgrad in Macedonian language?


----------



## Macedonicus

volodaaaa said:


> By the way, Belgrade is spelled Belgrad in Macedonian language?


It's Белград (Belgrad) but on the new road-signs it can be found only as Belgrade. The older ones have "Belgrad" in latin script and even "Beograd"


----------



## Alex_ZR

Macedonicus said:


> I think Kosovo and Macedonia have the same type


Whole former Yugoslavia still uses the same font type, plus Romania, Bulgaria, Belgium and Luxembourg.


----------



## Verso

I'd put Leskovac instead of Thessaloniki on those signs.


----------



## volodaaaa

Yeah it would be much better. Even though this sign look new, I assume it is the heritage from old Yugoslav times, isn't it?


----------



## TurboEngine

In Bulgaria, there are some signs to neighboring cities but in general most signs point to the border crossing town/village (often no mention of what country that leads to). This is a remnant of totalitarian times when you generally weren't allowed to leave the country.


----------



## Verso

volodaaaa said:


> Yeah it would be much better. Even though this sign look new, I assume it is the heritage from old Yugoslav times, isn't it?


I think they are rather new (less than a decade).


----------



## piotr71

This one seems to be pretty interesting:


----------



## Corvinus

Longest-distance non-motorway sign for Ljubljana in Hungary?
Right after the intersection roundabout of main roads 7 and 76. Lake Balaton in the background.
Photo taken August 2013


----------



## NordikNerd

Tornio, Finland sign in Haparanda, Sweden.


----------



## Verso

Corvinus said:


> Longest-distance non-motorway sign for Ljubljana in Hungary?





RipleyLV said:


>


Sadly it doesn't exist any more.


There's a sign with 319 km to Ljubljana on the M86 expressway (and of course 447 km on the M7 motorway).


----------



## isaidso

Near Niagara Falls, Ontario, Canada:









Courtesy of dream travel magazine


----------



## volodaaaa

In Uzghorod, Ukraine. Photo by Mirec-speleork.sk


----------



## bozenBDJ

^^ Perechin? :?


----------



## Verso

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perechyn


----------



## volodaaaa

I have tried to highlight the sign with probably longest distance to Bratislava. Also, very unreasonable is refusing of usage of closer large city e.g. Michalovce or Kosice.


----------



## bozenBDJ

^^ Maybe it's because of Bratislava 's 'dominance' over, say, Kosice? :dunno:


----------



## volodaaaa

bozenBDJ said:


> ^^ Maybe it's because of Bratislava 's 'dominance' over, say, Kosice? :dunno:


Don't know. For example, in Bratislava no Prague sign is used and there is only one Budapest sign.Gyor and Brno is used instead. But I have never seen e.g. Szeged in Serbia (Budapest only) or Nis in Macedonia (Beograd only).


----------



## Corvinus

Vienna exit in roundabout in Sopron


----------



## Redouane

Sign on the Algerian Autoroute De L'ouest (A1) saying: Oujda which is a city in Morocco. This is a good indication to te re-opening of the borders


----------



## alserrod

Is it planned to reopen in the following years?

How is it possible to go now from Morocco to Algier?


----------



## SturmBeobachter

volodaaaa said:


> Don't know. For example, in Bratislava no Prague sign is used and there is only one Budapest sign.Gyor and Brno is used instead. But I have never seen e.g. Szeged in Serbia (Budapest only) or Nis in Macedonia (Beograd only).


Don't worry, in Belgrad you can't find the sign for Subotica (Szabadka) either, and that is the city in Serbia (on the Hungarian Border)....what's really interesting is that in the Budapest, the very moment you switch from the M0 onto M5 in Hungary there is a sign Subotica/Szabadka with a proper distance showed. So in Belgrade you cannot find a signage leading to a city which is actually in Serbia but in Budapest you can....legacy is legacy :cheers:


----------



## abdeka

alserrod said:


> Is it planned to reopen in the following years?
> 
> How is it possible to go now from Morocco to Algier?


By plane.

Some people from Algeria go to Morocco with cars through Spain.
(Algerian car in Marrakech)


----------



## alserrod

lol!!!!! two ferries when a single road custom would be enough.


----------



## volodaaaa

SturmBeobachter said:


> Don't worry, in Belgrad you can't find the sign for Subotica (Szabadka) either, and that is the city in Serbia (on the Hungarian Border)....what's really interesting is that in the Budapest, the very moment you switch from the M0 onto M5 in Hungary there is a sign Subotica/Szabadka with a proper distance showed. So in Belgrade you cannot find a signage leading to a city which is actually in Serbia but in Budapest you can....legacy is legacy :cheers:


Actually, the funfact is, that all around Beograd are signs directing to Šid :lol: what is indeed small town.


----------



## Zagor666

Here some pictures that i have already posted in the longest mileage thread but they also qualify for this one.first picture ist from georgia, the second and third one from somewhere on the karakorum highway


----------



## Redouane

alserrod said:


> lol!!!!! two ferries when a single road custom would be enough.


Indeed, it's a sad situation because alot of families are separated right now and can't visit eachother because the border is closed..


----------



## Redouane

Sign in Algeria showing Maroc (Morocco) 









Another sign in Algeria, showing Oujda. A city in Morocco close to the border:









Sadly the border is closed because a conflict, i'm pretty sure it will be opened at the end of this year or in 2014..

Moroccan side: Frontiere Fermee (Border Closed)


----------



## Corvinus

Vatican (city and country) is signed in Rome:










Taken Sep 2013.


----------



## Penn's Woods

It occurs to me the Vatican is one place where the expression "all roads lead to Rome" is quite literally true.


----------



## Kamov




----------



## volodaaaa

Kamov said:


>


Advertisements, advertisements everywhere. I really hate it. It is serious probleme here in Slovakia too. The important signs may left unnoticed like the one cancelling the city speed limit on the right side of the picture.


----------



## Godius

Why does streetview just blurs out certain letters and not whole words?


----------



## volodaaaa

Ulpiana said:


> I do not really know, but yes, it may be possible that lack of these signs is a heritage from communist regime. Anyway, Albania is not the only one country that does not have signs for cities out of country. Czech Republic, Slovakia, Portugal do not have these signs as well (according to the posts in the first page of this thread).


We (in Slovakia) have those signs and they have been always present (even during commies' times). Not exactly the capitals, but the nearest and important cities (in original language) are posted. Ukraine is the only exception, we have only few signs directing to "Ukraine". Czech republic has them surely too.

Czech, Austrian and Hungarian cities at one sign









Austrian and Hungarian cities and Polish and Ukrainian ovals as well









The only exception (Ukraine is referred on the lower sign as "Ukrajina")


----------



## Ulpiana

^^ This post was my reference:



seem said:


> I think that we don't have even a single one in Slovakia.
> 
> Imo, it is the same in Czech Republic.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that Northern Ireland is right next to the Republic of Ireland.


----------



## volodaaaa

Ulpiana said:


> ^^ This post was my reference:


:lol: It *seem*s, that *seen* has not *seen *any :lol: But there have always been signs directing abroad. In 2011 definitely :lol:


----------



## Verso

^^


seem said:


> Right. I thought this is thread "Road signs showing cities in *non*-neighbouring foreign countries". :nuts:


Where is _seem_ anyway?


----------



## Kanadzie

Natomasken said:


> I'm surprised to see no barrier as late as 1987. Was this typical in the DDR? I've see pix of pre-WWII autobahns without barriers but I'd guess this didn't last past the 1950s in West Germany anyway.


Lucky not to have so many red flag in the pot holes :lol:


----------



## Moravian

In Köszeg/HU:


----------



## Corvinus

^^ So they sign not only a city, but also a _road number_ of a foreign country which is very unusual. 


In Ruggell (FL):


----------



## Palance

Corvinus said:


> ^^ So they sign not only a city, but also a _road number_ of a foreign country which is very unusual.


I know some examples around the BE-NL, DE-NL, and BE-FR borders.


----------



## Reivajar

I remember as well a German autobahn shield marking the French motorway A36 on the A5 near the Mulhouse border, and a Spanish styled rectangle for the French A-63 in an access to the Spanish A-8 in Irun. Besides, there is some Portuguese road number marked with the Spanish styled rectangle as well in some border in Galicia.


----------



## Kemo

French road number in Italy: http://goo.gl/maps/kHl0S
Czech (I/35) and German (178) road numbers in Poland: http://goo.gl/maps/I3hrm


----------



## volodaaaa

^^ It seems to be quite rare...


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Two U.S. Interstate shields near Montreal: http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/PQ/A/10/A10_dv_6-8_east.jpg

And there are plenty of such examples...you can also see "North Interstate 87 to Autoroute 15" (it may even say "to/vers") far below the border.


----------



## Man.Utd

Palance said:


> Is there a specific rewson for that? The times that Albania was totally isloated are now a long time ago. I can imagine that Prizren or Pristina should be signed, but not even that?


Typical Albanian signs...

Showing border name (albanian side) but nothing else.

Hani Hotit without MNE sign










Morinë without RKS sign










Kakavie without GR sign here 










Koplik is 17km from the border but still no MNE sign










Here showing FYR Macedonia but just before the border and it's written "Maqedoni" in albanian language not in English and no MK sign


----------



## Corvinus

In Croatia, near Goričan / Muracsány:

1.









2.









3. "Carina/Douane" sign is not yet replaced (it is obsolete since Croatia's EU membership). Same on Hungarian side.


----------



## I-Soke

Belgrade sign in Romania.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13992254453/


----------



## HRHB

A2 (Croatia) near Đurmanec, signs for Maribor with SLO sticker










A9 (Croatia) exit Buje/Buie, signs for Trieste and Koper with SLO, I and A sticker










D33 (Knin, HR) Signs for Strmica with BiH sticker and signs for Bosansko Grahovo without sticker



















But also interesting, near Dubrovnik and the border to Montenegro, I could find any signs to e.g. Herceg-Novi or Podgorica.


----------



## Palance

There are no signs to Podgorica in Croatia, only to Herceg Novi and Tivat.


----------



## HRHB

Palance said:


> There are no signs to Podgorica in Croatia, only to Herceg Novi and Tivat.


Couldn't even find them. Do you know where I can find them?


----------



## alserrod

This wednesday I noticed that a road cut to trucks and buses in France (RN-134 in Urdos) was adviced in Zaragoza, about 180 km away from incidence, via electronic pannels.


----------



## Palance

HRHB said:


> Couldn't even find them. Do you know where I can find them?


----------



## Corvinus

Simplon/Sempione (CH) signed in Domodossola (I).
Simplon is just a small town; the name is much more known for the Simplon Pass.


----------



## Kanadzie

More curiously, is that a vacuum cleaner repair shop called "Candy" ? :lol:


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Chacun à son goût.


----------



## Eulanthe

Ulpiana said:


> I do not really know, but yes, it may be possible that lack of these signs is a heritage from communist regime. Anyway, Albania is not the only one country that does not have signs for cities out of country. Czech Republic, Slovakia, Portugal do not have these signs as well (according to the posts in the first page of this thread).


The Czech Republic does, there are signs for Vienna in Brno for instance, and Gliwice is signed on the Czech A1. 

But why does the Czech Republic and Slovakia use Wien exclusively? 

I only wish that countries would start using longer distance signage occasionally. I'd love to see some signs around Vienna giving the distance to Split, or a sign in Bratislava giving the distance to Katowice/Wroclaw.


----------



## Road_UK

As much as it would delight long-distance sign lovers, it would pretty much take the purpose away from a road sign in the first place.


----------



## volodaaaa

Kanadzie said:


> More curiously, is that a vacuum cleaner repair shop called "Candy" ? :lol:


Candy is brand of cheap home appliances. :cheers: http://www.candy-hoover.cz/home/index.asp



Eulanthe said:


> But why does the Czech Republic and Slovakia use Wien exclusively?


What is wrong in that  On the other hand, I have seen a sign accidentally directing to "Budapešť" instead of Budapest.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Kanadzie said:


> More curiously, is that a vacuum cleaner repair shop called "Candy" ? :lol:


You obviously haven't heard for Italian brand of home appliances Candy (kandi):

http://www.nonstopshop.rs/cms/flick/prodimg/mediadb/largeimg/23933.jpg


----------



## Verso

Kanadzie said:


> More curiously, is that a vacuum cleaner repair shop called "Candy" ? :lol:


Every European knows about Candy. :lol:


----------



## x-type

volodaaaa said:


> Candy is brand of cheap home appliances. :cheers: http://www.candy-hoover.cz/home/index.asp


cheap? it's not cheap, it is one of better brands in medium class (unless you accept only Miele and Bosch washing machines, then you think of Candy and Electrolux as scorn, but then you cannot drive Vectra, but at least C-klasse)


----------



## Venividi

Roadsign in Kosakowo (village in northern Poland in Puck county)










Dukszty (Dūkštas) is a small city in eastern Lithuania.


----------



## Verso

What's the point of signposting that Lithuanian town?


----------



## volodaaaa

x-type said:


> cheap? it's not cheap, it is one of better brands in medium class (unless you accept only Miele and Bosch washing machines, then you think of Candy and Electrolux as scorn, but then you cannot drive Vectra, but at least C-klasse)


Sorry, I might have been mistaken, but my aunt once bought one and it was cheap and piece of crap. It was 16 years ago, so perhaps the situation has changed since ;-) Could be affected by her experience. I don't know much about wash machines - I've got AEG which is mid class (and I like the soft opening system, so it does not cut my fingers off), but at the same time I can't imagine better. I also can't imagine buying wash machine because of brand :lol: If I could have money to afford Miele, I should have had money to laundry service as well :lol: And my Vectra is cool. Still have more respect among those BMW, Porsche and Mercedes drivers than previous Ignis :lol:


----------



## SRC_100

Verso said:


> What's the point of signposting that Lithuanian town?


Probably this polish village _Kosakowo_ have some kind closer relation with listed cities/villages, eg partnership or something like that


----------



## Venividi

Yes. I've checked and found that Kosakowo and Dukszty are partner municipalities. Krościenko nad Dunajcem and Żerków are also partner towns of Kosakowo municipality (as well as Gonneville La Mallet, Pontalier (France), Heze (China) and Ruwer (Germany)


----------



## Venividi

Torsby (swedish city) in Norway 









really close to Swe-Nor border


----------



## lastsamurai

Ulpiana said:


> In Albania you will not find a sign for cities outside of Albania. In the best case, you can find only signs for (neighboring) countries. Usually, you will find signs for border places/towns in Albanian side of the broder. Of course, there are few exemptions, like this one  .



Interesting,there is only this:


----------



## lastsamurai

Zagor666 said:


> It probably was a try to write the international names cause even Tirana is not on albanian.


Ehh?

Tiranë/Tirana/Tirona

ps:Tirona is called by locals.


----------



## italystf

lastsamurai said:


> Interesting,there is only this:


It had already been posted and all distances are wrong! :lol:


----------



## csd

You can see plenty of signs for Northern Ireland (UK) locations in the Republic of Ireland, including the Irish (Gaelic) translations of city names which aren't really used in NI itself.

Some examples.

On the M2, Derry is signposted from Dublin. You won't find any mention of Londonderry this side of the border though!
IMG_1763 by csd75, on Flickr

The same goes for distance/route confirmation signs.
IMG_1751 by csd75, on Flickr

Belfast is the main control city on the RoI M1
IMG_6057 by csd75, on Flickr

/csd


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> It had already been posted and all distances are wrong! :lol:


They are air distances (as the crow flies).


----------



## Corvinus

Ventoso (RSM) signed in Italy.

Signs other than "San Marino" or "Rep. San Marino" are, of course, only found right next to the border ....


----------



## Xusein

I-5 North has Vancouver as a control city north of Seattle.

The sign says Vancouver *BC *though, because there is a Vancouver in Washington close to Portland.


----------



## CNGL

Kemo said:


> Poland. The very first example of directional signage to neighbouring country that lacks the names of insignificant border villages :banana:
> 
> 
> Photo by *konradb4*


What happened to Budzisko and Ogrodniki?


----------



## Kemo

Captured by little green men :troll:


----------



## Corvinus

Chiesanouva (RSM) signposted in Italy, close to the border.

No oval, so only those familiar with local geography will know it's actually in another country.


----------



## Verso

Have you moved to San Marino?


----------



## Corvinus

No *lol* I've already run out of border pics, but will be still submitting road photos in the San Marino thread.


----------



## italystf

Road sign on an access road to the new A60 Varese bypass, scheduled to open next January.
Valichi means "border crossings". Not a clear way to signal a border crossing, though. Non-Italian drivers won't understand it.


----------



## Verso

^^ I thought "Valichi" was a Swiss town.  Somewhat reminds me of this sign in Slovenia. "MMP Gruškovje" stands for "mednarodni mejni prehod Gruškovje", meaning "international border checkpoint Gruškovje" (with Croatia).


----------



## Penn's Woods

Is that "CH Valichi" on a brown panel?

And if so, why?


----------



## x-type

Penn's Woods said:


> Is that "CH Valichi" on a brown panel?
> 
> And if so, why?


because _valico_ (pl. valichi) means mountain pass in italian, so it's something like the signs for _mare_ or _spiagge_ that indicate ways to reach the sea coast or beaches


----------



## Protteus

In my hometown Tijuana, Mexico. there're several of them, 
Indicating the interstates I-5 and I-805, and the local 905 freeway.





























As well in San Diego there are for Tijuana and farther the city of Ensenada, 
but can't find the exact location of the signs in google maps.


----------



## italystf

x-type said:


> because _valico_ (pl. valichi) means mountain pass in italian, so it's something like the signs for _mare_ or _spiagge_ that indicate ways to reach the sea coast or beaches


There are no mountain passes between Italy and Switzerland near Varese, since Canton Ticino is in the same watershed of Italy.
In this case it means "valichi di frontiera" (border crossings), like "Valico di Fernetti".


----------



## Kemo

Czech and Lithuanian (and Polish) capitals on one sign 

photo by *los77*


----------



## Verso

^^ So Warsaw over road DK61, but Prague over road DK8/E67.


----------



## Verso

http://goo.gl/maps/imfjA


----------



## Zagor666

Germany :cheers:


----------



## Road_UK

Basel. On a German sign. Wow.


----------



## Corvinus

Falciano and Dogana Bassa (RSM) signed on SS72, Italy


----------



## stickedy

Verso said:


> ^^ I thought "Valichi" was a Swiss town.  Somewhat reminds me of this sign in Slovenia. "MMP Gruškovje" stands for "mednarodni mejni prehod Gruškovje", meaning "international border checkpoint Gruškovje" (with Croatia).


That's not that unusual in former YU countries. In BiH e.g., there's GP Izačić signed on M5 around Bihac. GP means Granični prijelaz = border crossing.


----------



## Road_UK

I like the French way:










Which certainly beats the British mess:










Or the Austrian...










Or the Belgian...










The best way is the German way in my mind.


----------



## Penn's Woods

French signs are very informative, but can you read them at 80 mph?


----------



## Road_UK

I can...


----------



## Palance

I am missing the city in any neighbouring country on that French sign.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Welcome to Highways & Autobahns!

(I don't see a city in a neighboring country on ANY of those signs, actually, but I didn't read over them that carefully. More as if I were trying to read them at 80 mph.)


----------



## Attus

Road UK simply missed the thread. That's all. 
It's quite a pity but I don't blame him: it's the first time he is off-topic in the forum ;-)


----------



## volodaaaa

The Austrian sign has some foreign destinations, which is nice.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^But no foreign cities. Just the ovals.


----------



## -Valentino-




----------



## volodaaaa

I think the photograph is way too small ^^


----------



## Corvinus

OK let's practice photo re-sizing a bit, but I like the sunny picture anyway. Europe is way over-represented in both this and the border crossings thread.


----------



## Kanadzie

Penn's Woods said:


> Reasonably recent office desktop, tried in two different browsers.
> 
> But were you showing this, by any chance?
> 
> http://asphaltplanet.ca/PQ/A/15/A15_dv_53_north.jpg


I think that sign was replaced a while ago and that "dot" is deprecated in Quebec (never even saw it anywhere else)

The French setup is just farked, if you are going to copy anything, don't copy France, ever, except maybe if wine is involved :lol:

EDIT

HAHAHA that isn't the sign I was thinking of. And I think... it wasn't the one you were thinking of either (Outbound Champlain to the hwy 15/132 ?)


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Can't remember what I was thinking. Or what I thought Valentino was thinking. It was either the sign with the big dot, or the signs to New York that you see leading to the Champlain.


----------



## Road_UK

"pont Victoria". Something like that would be unthinkable in France...


----------



## Penn's Woods

So would having Elizabeth II on the coinage.


----------



## OulaL

I don't like that Canadian motorway (or whatever that is) sign. Ok, the number is clear, but the symbol on the red background is just messy.


----------



## MattiG

Penn's Woods said:


> French signs are very informative, but can you read them at 80 mph?


In my experience, yes. The French system (for motorways) works rather well. For the lower network, the attitude is somewhat "more French", and the results are not always extremely clear.










Yes, the German system is more clear, even if there is room for improvement.


----------



## Penn's Woods

OulaL said:


> I don't like that Canadian motorway (or whatever that is) sign. Ok, the number is clear, but the symbol on the red background is just messy.


Quebec autoroute, to be precise. And I always thought it was modeled on a European motorway symbol. (And the U.S. Interstate marker, which you can see one of right next to it...) Is it possible that there was a messier motorway symbol that evolved into the current one?

It's never struck me as messy, really. But maybe I've never seen one that's so big.


----------



## Road_UK

European motorway symbol?


----------



## Road_UK

*European capitals signposted in Germany*

Paris from Germany:










Amsterdam from Germany:



















Warsaw from Germany:










Vienna from Germany:










Brussels from Germany:










Prague from Germany:










It seems that Denmark and Switzerland are the only neighbouring countries not having their capitals displayed in Germany.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> European motorway symbol?


Well, okay, I suppose it's the international-except-in-North-America motorway symbol....

That Quebec version (which is more illustration than symbol) is the closest we come to it in the U.S. or Canada that I'm aware of.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> Paris from Germany:


What's with the arrangement:

Basel Freiburg
Buehl*

*Sorry, too early in the day to switch keyboard layouts just for an Umlaut.

And by "What's with," I'm not criticizing - Heaven forfend - just asking what it means.

EDIT: When I typed that out, they were indented the way they are on the sign.


----------



## Road_UK

Freiburg and Basel are the key cities and Bühl is the next exit after the Baden-Baden exit.


----------



## Penn's Woods

So in France it would read

FRIBOURG
BÂLE

_BÜHL_

(Now that was worth changing keyboard layouts for.)


----------



## Road_UK

Not always. When getting closer to the border they actually use German words as well. (Freiburg instead of Fribourg, Basel instead of Bale, Saarbrücken instead of Sarrebruck.)


----------



## Penn's Woods

My point was, the "Buhl" would be in italics, and perhaps with a space between it and the control cities. Or perhaps on a separate panel.

I just Francized the names for fun.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> Not always. When getting closer to the border they actually use German words as well. (Freiburg instead of Fribourg, Basel instead of Bale, Saarbrücken instead of Sarrebruck.)


That image is quite small. Might even fit inside one of Valentino's route markers.

(Seriously, I can't read it.)


----------



## Road_UK

It says Freiburg, take my word for it. When heading on the French motorway towards Saarbrücken there's a sign that I always found a little odd:


----------



## alserrod

MattiG said:


> In my experience, yes. The French system (for motorways) works rather well. For the lower network, the attitude is somewhat "more French", and the results are not always extremely clear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the German system is more clear, even if there is room for improvement.




Anyone may get off there and take his time to read all signals :cheers:


----------



## volodaaaa

Road_UK said:


> Freiburg and Basel are the key cities and Bühl is the next exit after the Baden-Baden exit.


I've thought exits are marked in a different way in Germany. Was not Germany used to put there the "exit" symbol?










Because, in spite of the same name, the exit is not the same as the city.


----------



## OulaL

Road_UK said:


> Paris from Germany:


Paris signposted with a motorway symbol, that is located on a motorway, but referring to a route that (partly) is not a motorway.

Guess that makes sense somehow...


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> Paris signposted with a motorway symbol, that is located on a motorway, but referring to a route that (partly) is not a motorway.
> 
> Guess that makes sense somehow...


Not an uncommon signage in Germany. Blue signs are often used to designate routes to motorways over non-motorways. The distance to A35 in France is about 10 kilometres over B5 and D4.


----------



## Kanadzie

Penn's Woods said:


> Quebec autoroute, to be precise. And I always thought it was modeled on a European motorway symbol. (And the U.S. Interstate marker, which you can see one of right next to it...) Is it possible that there was a messier motorway symbol that evolved into the current one?
> 
> It's never struck me as messy, really. But maybe I've never seen one that's so big.


I have somewhere a picture of the Decarie Expressway under construction circa 1966 but they installed the sign... exactly the same as current standard

never thought it messy, it is just a stylized overpass. Maybe when you are going 130 km/h past it you can't see it long enough to remark :lol:


----------



## Verso

Road_UK said:


> European capitals signposted in Germany


And Luxembourg?


----------



## Road_UK

edit


----------



## Road_UK

Verso said:


> And Luxembourg?


You're right. I forgot about that one.

Luxembourg:





















...and Luxemburg:


----------



## Verso

*C*entrum?


----------



## Road_UK

Yes, the Germany are doing it the international way as well now. There are still some *Zentrums* left here and there, but if it's not *Mitte*, then it's either centrum or just *city*.


----------



## TrojaA

Verso said:


> *C*entrum?


It's the old way of spelling which is obsolete since 1901, but it became modern again a few decades ago and was used in ads and so on.
Also sometimes old spellings are considered as proper names. So the Centrum is not actual the center of the city, but more like e.g. Hamburg Centrum which is a proper name, so all signs use Centrum or derived names contain the name Centrum e.g. the congress centre saar is written Congress Centrum Saar. (But if you want to refer to any congress centre, then you will use the word Kongresszentrum ;-))

Official signs also often have spelling mistakes, so I wouldn't care much about which word is used. Centrum, Zentrum, Center and City all mean the same. "Center" is currently what's considered as a modern word. (FYI there was during the Middle High German period the word Zenter. It was the loanword from Centrum which is obviously Latin.)

So Road_UK is right, sometimes it's also i18n. So the center of a town could also be signalised as "Center", "City-Center", "Citycenter" or "City". (In German "City" only means the city centre)
A bit confusing, perhaps.

B2T


----------



## Corvinus

Road_UK said:


> It seems that Denmark and Switzerland are the only neighbouring countries not having their capitals displayed in Germany.


... and as an addition, Switzerland does not have a _de jure_ capital at all. Bern is the seat of the federal authorities, thus being the _de facto_ capital. In Switzerland, it is referred to as _Bundesstadt _(and not _Hauptstadt_).

So strictly speaking, the Germans only miss one capital city; isn't there really a single sign for Copenhagen?


----------



## -Valentino-

It would be interesting if European countries had English included on signs as well for international visitors or near the border, but not sure if it would work or be the same because everything is symbolic and no words almost. NORTH, EAST, WEST, SOUTH not used in Europe, such as E4 N or 1 E.


----------



## x-type

-Valentino- said:


> It would be interesting if European countries had English included on signs as well for international visitors or near the border, but not sure if it would work or be the same because everything is symbolic and no words almost. NORTH, EAST, WEST, SOUTH not used in Europe, such as E4 N or 1 E.


no thanks.


----------



## AsHalt

I wonder how's is the expressways /highways/autobahns are going to be like when the automatic robocars are the norm in the future, is there going to be still the need for physical signs or just use holograms or ,the sad kind, let it "rot".


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Directions would be helpful, in my opinion. But that's a conversation we've had before and I'm on my way to lunch. :cheers:

EDIT, like, hours later... In case it's not clear, this is regarding directions on signage in the world we live in today, as opposed to navigational aids for robocars.


----------



## Road_UK

Corvinus said:


> ... and as an addition, Switzerland does not have a _de jure_ capital at all. Bern is the seat of the federal authorities, thus being the _de facto_ capital. In Switzerland, it is referred to as _Bundesstadt _(and not _Hauptstadt_).
> 
> So strictly speaking, the Germans only miss one capital city; isn't there really a single sign for Copenhagen?


No. Key destination on the A7 is Flensburg which is still in Germany, and Kolding after that. The other route to Denmark and actually Copenhagen is via A1 (key city Lübeck) towards the ferry Puttgarden to Roedby. And on that route only Puttgarden is displayed after and around Lübeck.


----------



## Road_UK

-Valentino- said:


> It would be interesting if European countries had English included on signs as well for international visitors or near the border, but not sure if it would work or be the same because everything is symbolic and no words almost. NORTH, EAST, WEST, SOUTH not used in Europe, such as E4 N or 1 E.


It'd be interesting if the French-Canadians would use STOP on their signs - the international way - for international visitors.

And also everything in Dutch of course, for Dutch visitors. And Spanish, for Spanish visitors. Hell, Canada should include every major language on its road signs.

But just for you:


----------



## OulaL

Road_UK said:


> No. Key destination on the A7 is Flensburg which is still in Germany, and Kolding after that. The other route to Denmark and actually Copenhagen is via A1 (key city Lübeck) towards the ferry Puttgarden to Roedby. And on that route only Puttgarden is displayed after and around Lübeck.


As Puttgarden is in no way significant other than a ferry port, this will probably change with the Fehmarn Belt Tunnel.

My guess is Kopenhagen (German spelling).


----------



## Verso

-Valentino- said:


> It would be interesting if European countries had English included on signs as well for international visitors or near the border, but not sure if it would work or be the same because everything is symbolic and no words almost. NORTH, EAST, WEST, SOUTH not used in Europe, such as E4 N or 1 E.


You'd love Skopje (Macedonia) then, they use Macedonian, English and French on the bypass. But it's messy. We only use English (beside Slovenian) for indicating the Ljubljana motorway ring, the port of Koper (but no airport) and perhaps some other important destination.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Directions would be helpful, in my opinion. But that's a conversation we've had before and I'm on my way to lunch. :cheers:


I'm back from lunch, but my reading glasses aren't. :bash:

I'll rejoin this (and any) conversation here once I've bought a new pair.

Any typos in this post are because I can't see 'em.


----------



## Road_UK

OulaL said:


> As Puttgarden is in no way significant other than a ferry port, this will probably change with the Fehmarn Belt Tunnel.
> 
> My guess is Kopenhagen (German spelling).


They might even put it in the original Danish spelling. There seems to be a shuffle in the German way of thinking in these matters, and my guess is that they're not absolutely sure what to do, however, they did change the signs to two principal Dutch cities a while ago, and put them in original Dutch.

Arnheim (German)....










...is now Arnhem (Dutch)










And Nimwegen (German)










...is now Nijmegen (Dutch)










...that truck driver got so confused that he tipped his lorry over.

-------------------

Same goes for the Luxemb(o)urg example...


----------



## TrojaA

Could be possible. All these other languages use the same alphabet like German. (This includes the diacritics like ` and ´)
The original Danish spelling for Copenhagen is København. I'm not sure whether they will put <ø> on a sign or if they will use the German name.
E.g. Szczecin is also written Stettin, but they put often Szczecin in parenthesis behind it. Or did they change this?

So I think it might be either "Kopenhagen" or "Kopenhagen (København)".


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## Road_UK

The Stettin/Szchecin one is still the same. Same with Prag/Praha.

This sign doesn't make much sense to me:










Luxembourg in French only. But Lüttich (Liege in French, it's a French-speaking town in Belgium) in both languages. I suppose they use whichever is clearest, as Brussels is in the German spelling only. (Brüssel)

They took it more seriously in Brussels, on a motorway in an area where both French and Dutch is spoken:


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## Kemo

A sign with both *Frankfurt (Oder)* and *Warschau (Warszawa)* is also confusing. Is Oder the Polish name of Frankfurt? :troll:









Source of the photo: http://bujko.net/blog/2012/08/10/1344591422042.html


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## -Valentino-

^^ They should use the name of the city in the local national language of where you see the road sign. For example Sweden should post Köpenhamn, not in Danish spelling.


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## Road_UK

You're wrong and it's not the general opinion of us Europeans. The Dutch have changed all signs in language of destination country only to make it clear for anybody.

It's not really any of your concern what we should do here anyway.


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## volodaaaa

Road_UK said:


> You're wrong and it's not the general opinion of us Europeans. The Dutch have changed all signs in language of destination country only to make it clear for anybody.
> 
> It's not really any of your concern what we should do here anyway.


True. The original name is the far best choice. The local name is just optional. Everybody knows Wien is Vienna and nobody cares if it is Beč in Croatian, Bécs in Hungarian, Viedeň in Slovak, Vídeň in Czech or Dunaj in Slovenian.


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## MattiG

-Valentino- said:


> ^^ They should use the name of the city in the local national language of where you see the road sign. For example Sweden should post Köpenhamn, not in Danish spelling.


That principle would be problematic in the US, as the local authorities would need to choose whether to use English, Spanish, Irish, or Polish.


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## MattiG

volodaaaa said:


> True. The original name is the far best choice. The local name is just optional. Everybody knows Wien is Vienna and nobody cares if it is Beč in Croatian, Bécs in Hungarian, Viedeň in Slovak, Vídeň in Czech or Dunaj in Slovenian.


Original name? Vindobona? Parisium? Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium? Lugdunum? Treva? Juvavum?


----------



## Road_UK

^^


----------



## volodaaaa

MattiG said:


> Original name? Vindobona? Parisium? Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium? Lugdunum? Treva? Juvavum?


I meant the name in majority language of the country the city is located within. The traffic signage must be as legible and clear as possible. Seriously, how many drivers would have clue if you posted Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium?


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## Zagor666

CNGL said:


> _Spital_? I thought 'hospital' in German was _krankenhaus_ (literally 'house of sick people'). Maybe it is Austrian German?


Yes it is, its a word like palatschinken or fiaker that you find in Austria but not in Germany :cheers:


----------



## Corvinus

Capital of Lesotho signposted in South Africa










Src: http://hors-frontieres.fr/14450/


----------



## Moravian

Cadca/Slovakia:


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## DanielFigFoz

Why did I give this thread such an awful name?


----------



## Verso

^^ Exactly what I was thinking. :lol:


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## AsHalt

Time to rename? 😂 Maybe to "road signage to Neighbouring city / country /county"


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## Zagor666

Prety old sign in Cologne :cheers:



Today they would´n sing even the half of all those cities.


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## Attus

^^ The same location in 2008. Graphic is changed, content not at all.
No idea how it looks now. Perhaps I should drive there and check


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## Zagor666

Attus said:


> ^^ The same location in 2008. Graphic is changed, content not at all.
> No idea how it looks now. Perhaps I should drive there and check


This is probably the sign that stands on the crossing, my stands few 100. meters before cause i made my picture in 2013 when i was driving by on my bicycle. they would change both but Cologne is a poor village :cheers:


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## Kpc21

Both signs must be from the same time, as the font looks somewhat different from the one used on the German road signs (and not only on road signs, Germans are really crazy about it).


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ DIN 1451?

Poland still uses on number plates
but Germany uses something else now


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## Attus

Zagor666 said:


> This is probably the sign that stands on the crossing, my stands few 100. meters before cause i made my picture in 2013 when i was driving by on my bicycle. they would change both but Cologne is a poor village :cheers:


I was today in Cologne. It has heavily raining so I did not make any photos. Both signs have been replaced, the new ones have the usual current German layout and style. Venlo is no more signed, only domestic destinations are signed.


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## Kpc21

@Kanadzie: Yes. You see it everywhere in Germany, even on "dangerous dog" warning signs.

I have never realized that the Polish license plate font has something in common with DIN1451, but after comparing them it seems that... that's true. It's not exactly DIN1451, but DIN1451 with some small changes.

The thing is, you don't usually see DIN1451 as a text created with capital letters only.

The polish road signs font is also interesting, it's, in my opinion, a very good font for it's purpose. The only disadvantage is that it's quite space-consumung, but it's really well-readable. But it's used almost only on the road signs (an exception are, for example, the street name plates in Ponań), we are not so crazy about it as Germans are about DIN1451.

A good thing about both Polish and German road signs is also that they don't use capital letters only, as for example French, or Slovak road signs do. Human brain recognizes the words written with both capital and small letters (I mean, in the normal way, as all the words in this post) easier and faster than those written with capital letters only.

And a weird thing which we have in Poland are the road signs on the roads crossing the national border. Almost always they just "have to" include the name of the village in which there is a border crossing, or in which the road just crosses the border without any proper checkpoint (on the internal Schengen borders). Even on main highways, a few hundred kilometers from the border. At the same time, the names of the cities in the neighbouring countries, to which the road leads, are often missing (although now it is changing to better).

Like here: https://goo.gl/maps/vUmz9UNVdtC2
Luckily there are Dresden and Berlin on this sign (although, from what I remember, they weren't present on the initial version on this sign, they had to correct it), but at the same time... Jędrzychowice is a village with 694 persons of population, Olszyna is a town with 4469 citizens no, it's the wrong Olszyna! this is the proper Olszyna, it looks like not even 100 persons lives here! a small poor village with literally a few post-German houses and hens running freely on the yard.... And this is one of the main east-west highways in the country, still many tens of km from these small villages! Even Zgorzelec is quite a small town to include it on a junction of two highways (population: 32.332), but together with Görlitz, it's German part at the other side of the Odra/Oder river, it's bigger (Görlitz has a population of 54.042, so together it's almost 90.000 citizens).


----------



## Kpc21

Another example, the section of the A1 currently being built:



los77 said:


> Jedzie sobie człowiek z północy na południe a tu info o Litwie :nuts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Autor zdjęcia : *sl* (picassa)


Putting aside that the green part shouldn't be present on this sign at all - the sign is near Łódź on the A1 to the south, and going the A1 to the south and then taking the S8 will be the least sensible way possible to go to Warsaw and to Lithuania from Łódź (especially taking into account that the A1-S8 junction doesn't allow at all to go from the A1 from the north to the S8 to the north, so the driver would have to go to the next junction and make a U-turn there, or just use a non-highway road) - you can see here Budzisko - 500 km. There is no Google Street View there - but looking at the elections data, the electoral district to which this village belongs consists of around 230-250 persons and contains 23 villages. This way a village with less then 100 citizens becomes famous thanks to that a main road intersects with the national border there. Without, even, a checkpoint.

But they included Ostrava and not Gorzyczki, at least one thing done well!


----------



## -Pino-

Kpc21 said:


> Putting aside that the green part shouldn't be present on this sign at all - the sign is near Łódź on the A1 to the south, and going the A1 to the south and then taking the S8 will be the least sensible way possible to go to Warsaw and to Lithuania from Łódź (especially taking into account that the A1-S8 junction doesn't allow at all to go from the A1 from the north to the S8 to the north, so the driver would have to go to the next junction and make a U-turn there, or just use a non-highway road).


I suppose that this is the result of the odd routing of the S8/DK8. In so many respects, this is not the logical route between Wroclaw and Augustow. Yet because it's there, you'd have to signpost it somehow, even where that implies detours.


----------



## OulaL

It seems to be a Polish way to post (rather insignificant) border points instead of actual destinations across the border. Ostrava is a nice exception to this rule, equally logical would be Kaunas instead of Budzisko. (That is, if we forget the fact that anyone seeing this sign is hardly going to Lithuania in the first place.)


----------



## -Pino-

^^ Yeah, they should go for Kaunas or Augustow. Either the last larger town in Poland or the first larger town across the border. But as long as these are not signposted as such on the S8 itself, this sign on the A1 at Lodz is not quite the sign to start doing so. Hopefully a coordinated coverplating exercise (replacing the border point with a more realistic terminus) will occur on the S8 and roads leading to the S8 in the not too distant future.


----------



## Verso

Poles wanna show distance to the border, not to Budzisko. Kaunas and Augustów are not on the border. OTOH, Katowice and Ostrava aren't on the border either.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Poles wanna show distance to the border, not to Budzisko. Kaunas and Augustów are not on the border. OTOH, Katowice and Ostrava aren't on the border either.


But, why one does need to know how many km is the border far away?
It's more useful to know the distance to the next significant city/ies, either before or across the border, that are likely destinations for many motorists.
If I'm driving, for example, on Italian A22 northbound, I'm probably more interested to know how far away are, for example, Bolzano or Innsbruck (that are quite large, so likely final destinantion for many drivers), rather than the distance to Brenner Pass (that is just a transit place, rarely becoming a final destination).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ True, if you want to sign the border at all, it's most logical to do that after the last significant city, in this case Suwałki. But there probably have been endless discussions about the signage of Polish borders from far away before.


----------



## -Pino-

italystf said:


> But, why one does need to know how many km is the border far away?
> It's more useful to know the distance to the next significant city/ies, either before or across the border, that are likely destinations for many motorists.
> If I'm driving, for example, on Italian A22 northbound, I'm probably more interested to know how far away are, for example, Bolzano or Innsbruck (that are quite large, so likely final destinantion for many drivers), rather than the distance to Brenner Pass (that is just a transit place, rarely becoming a final destination).


Some transit points are either really well known or otherwise describe a route much better than the towns around them. In such a situation, signposting the transit point is a sensible decision. It is then of little relevance that the transit point is not a final destination for many motorists. Road signs (and distance signs in particular) are also there to reassure the motorist. Reassurance also involves a confirmation where you find yourself relative to an important waypoint. This justifies signposting a major intersection, a town next to a major intersection, the next exit, a mountain pass and indeed a border crossing. 

However, this does leave the question when you should signpost a transit point. Surely only when it's got a certain relevance for a good proportion of the drivers unfamiliar in the area. Transit points far away are not particularly likely to be very relevant. Which of course applies to road termini as well. Rather than re-discussing specific issues, let's leave it at the point that Italian issues like Gravellona Toce (common defence: "but everyone just knows that road as Genova Voltri - Gravellona Toce") and Polish border villages all revolve around an understanding of relevance that deviates from the thinking in other countries.


----------



## OulaL

italystf said:


> But, why one does need to know how many km is the border far away?
> It's more useful to know the distance to the next significant city/ies, either before or across the border, that are likely destinations for many motorists.
> If I'm driving, for example, on Italian A22 northbound, I'm probably more interested to know how far away are, for example, Bolzano or Innsbruck (that are quite large, so likely final destinantion for many drivers), rather than the distance to Brenner Pass (that is just a transit place, rarely becoming a final destination).


Slightly offtopic, but Brenner Pass is an important route regardless the fact that it is also a border crossing point, as it is one of the few routes across the mountains. For comparison, Gotthard is neither a populated destination nor a border crossing, and still signposted around Switzerland.


----------



## Kpc21

italystf said:


> But, why one does need to know how many km is the border far away?
> It's more useful to know the distance to the next significant city/ies, either before or across the border, that are likely destinations for many motorists.
> If I'm driving, for example, on Italian A22 northbound, I'm probably more interested to know how far away are, for example, Bolzano or Innsbruck (that are quite large, so likely final destinantion for many drivers), rather than the distance to Brenner Pass (that is just a transit place, rarely becoming a final destination).


Might be useful when you buy the fuel - if it's cheaper in the next country, and you are running out of it, you want to take only so much to get to the border, and then tank the cheaper one in the country on the other side. But is here giving the distance to the border anyhow useful? I don't know.


----------



## -Pino-

Even in the Schengen area, I see merit in signposting the distance to the border and the last exit before the border. Even if you don't need to show a passport to cross a border, people might want to postpone their fuel stops. And perhaps more importantly, avoid crossing a border because they are somehow prevented under economic regulations, e.g. the German restrictions against lorries in weekends, levies on importing alcohol or cigarettes in the EU etc.

It's just not a relevant piece of data when you're still hundreds of kilometres away from the border.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ I kind of like to have the information
But maybe it is best to just have it as a "alternate reference"
for example (in one direction at least), the km-markers and exit numbers...


----------



## NordikNerd

*Malmö sign south of Copenhagen*









*The first sign of Malmö, Sweden when approaching Copenhagen from the south on the E20/E47.* 

(screenshot from my timelapse video)

Malmö is written Malmø with the danish letter for "ö" while Copenhagen is written in swedish on the swedish E20. Maybe the could add a letter as "S" for Sweden after the foreign city like they do in continental europe.


----------



## eeee.

Rather unusual location for Paris on a road sign:
https://goo.gl/maps/gmbUC7nYAxs

And it's never mentioned again between the sign and the border. :dunno:


----------



## Festin

NordikNerd said:


> *The first sign of Malmö, Sweden when approaching Copenhagen from the south on the E20/E47.*
> 
> (screenshot from my timelapse video)
> 
> Malmö is written Malmø with the danish letter for "ö" while Copenhagen is written in swedish on the swedish E20. Maybe the could add a letter as "S" for Sweden after the foreign city like they do in continental europe.


I just realized that the "S" is not there. Can't remember how it looks for Helsingborg going to Helsingör or Helsingör and Copenhagen on the swedish motorway.

But the lack of it shows a closer connection I think, perhaps neighbouring countries or cities as close as that should not have it. But then again, it may confuse tourists or national citizen coming from further away in the country.


----------



## NordikNerd

*Helsingborg sign in Helsingör*



Festin said:


> I just realized that the "S" is not there. Can't remember how it looks for Helsingborg going to Helsingör or Helsingör and Copenhagen on the swedish motorway.
> 
> But the lack of it shows a closer connection I think, perhaps neighbouring countries or cities as close as that should not have it. But then again, it may confuse tourists or national citizen coming from further away in the country.


Yes. It may confuse tourists without any knowledge in scandinavian geography. Also Denmark-Sweden does not have the same amount of transit traffic as in continental europe, so a national letter is not necessary here.









*Helsingborg sign in Helsingör has a sign for a ferry.*


----------



## volodaaaa

Ukrainian city first time at Slovak traffic sign. Correct English transliteration


NDNI said:


>


----------



## italystf

volodaaaa said:


> Ukrainian city first time at Slovak traffic sign. Correct English transliteration


Strange, considering that SK and UA are neighbouring countries. Did they just signposted 'Ukraine', before?


----------



## g.spinoza

Maybe you wanted to say "Roman" transliteration?


----------



## Verso

Roman and English. If it were transliterated the Slovak way, it would say Užhorod. Although locals seem to call it Uzhgorod.


----------



## ukraroad

^^FYI, this is the Soviet-times monument (or whatever, dunno how to name this structure), and it was made by Russians, not Ukrainians. Locals(mostly speaking Ukrainian and/or Slovakian and/or Hungarian) will call that city Ungvar or Uzhhorod but not Uzhgorod. Why? Even though Ужгород is spelt the same in Russian and Ukrainian, Ukrainians will say Uzhhorod while Russians will have it transliterated as Uzhgorod(г in Ukr. is not equal to г in Russian), and typically pronounce it as Uzhgarad(in Russian, letter o not under stress usually becomes a in speech). To answer a possible question what for the Soviets needed an English transliteration, I'll say it is a border town, and subject to foreigners being in it. Maybe in this case they wanted to show that even Soviet Union accept English as the international language


----------



## Verso

^^ Is this also a Soviet sign? If so, they should change it. But it doesn't look so old to me.


----------



## ukraroad

Verso said:


> ^^ Is this also a Soviet sign? If so, they should change it. But it doesn't look so old to me.


It's Euro 2012 sign, and it has a mistake, I think. Or they maybe didn't want to have two "h" letters nearby(a likelier occurrence), which seems logical even to me unless I knew it's a wrong transliteration. For sure it's not Soviet.


----------



## ukraroad

BTW, you showed me a nearby foreign city sign:
Here in Uzhhorod(or Uzhgorod, here it shows the latter).
I also have a few other signs to show:
One more in Uzhhorod: here.
In Krościenko, PK, PL: 3 km from border
In Szypliszki, PD, PL:
8 km from border
In Lithuania
One more
Again to Karaliaucius
And last: Road to Lublin through Zhowkwa/Żółkiew
Now to Liublin


----------



## Verso

Bratyslava. :lol: And Liublin looks like Liubliana (Spanish for Ljubljana) and starts the same in Cyrillic.


----------



## shard97

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.2...9dNWx_k7LVtXp044BQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

Sligo seen from Northern Ireland


----------



## volodaaaa

italystf said:


> Strange, considering that SK and UA are neighbouring countries. Did they just signposted 'Ukraine', before?


Yes, exactly. And it was only close to the border crossings. Slovak municipalities, small though, was used instead (Vyšné Nemecké, Ubľa).



g.spinoza said:


> Maybe you wanted to say "Roman" transliteration?


No, no. Roman would be Užhorod. This Uzhhorod is English name of the city.



Verso said:


> ^^ Is this also a Soviet sign? If so, they should change it. But it doesn't look so old to me.


I do not think this is a proper translation. Looks like a Roman transliteration used for English speaking people to learn how to pronounce it.


----------



## volodaaaa

x-type said:


> i'd say that Schwarzmüller are even more often.


What about Willy Betz or RiCö. Or Smiling Sun a.k.a. Warberer's. :lol:


----------



## italystf

Vatican signposted on A90 (Rome's ringroad) and A91 (Rome-airport) motorways

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@41.8...4!1sJvu8crI_RxmH5k3G2clgig!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@41.8...4!1sJl5-1RCH_f37HVw48yIPMA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## MadMax87

brisavoine said:


> Note that oddly it's in Italy that the name of Aoste/Aosta is signed in both languages (Italian and French), see below, whereas in France it's signed only in Italian. :nuts:


Don't worry , they've already correct the mistake (if you go on street view you can clearly see Milan Turin Aoste :lol::lol::lol


----------



## Moravian

Austria - Waidhofen an der Thaya:


----------



## Corvinus

^^ I find these signs very clear and they even added the unique Czech accents!


----------



## Palance

Corvinus said:


> and they even added the unique Czech accents!


Yes, but sometimes they have forgotten to do so: Here the Austrians did it correctly on the first sign (Přední Výtoň) , but they forgot in on the sign to the Lake Lipno, which should be Lipenská Přehrada


----------



## Zagor666

Serbia :cheers:


----------



## SRC_100

^^
Without _*HR *_in oval


----------



## Angelos

Why should they, Zagreb is in Yugoslavia :troll:


----------



## Kpc21

Are there any international regulations that would indicate that those country markings should be in ovals and what country acronyms they should contain?

Because regarding the country signs on cars in international traffic - it is regulated by Vienna convention on road traffic. Some regulations about signposting (including e.g. that it's recommended for the names of foreign towns to be shown in the original language) are in the Vienna convention on road signs and signals. But I couldn't find anything about that on the signposts, the same ovals should be used as on the cars.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't think there is a specific regulation for that. The Vienna Convention regulates traffic signs, but directional signage is not a part of traffic signs. 

Country ovals are not really a standard across Europe, some countries use ovals for both countries, some for only the foreign countries and some don't use any.


----------



## Kpc21

ChrisZwolle said:


> I don't think there is a specific regulation for that. The Vienna Convention regulates traffic signs, but directional signage is not a part of traffic signs.


It is and Vienna Convention regulates that. On a very general level, but it does. There are even examples of directional signage shown. There are unified colors used in some situations, e.g. red cannot be used on directional signage.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Denmark uses red on its signage.


PR8-29 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Kpc21

The rules are:










So red should be used for important matters only and it shouldn't predominate. The signs from Denmark are, maybe, OK (although... it doesn't seem to be used only exceptionally, so it doesn't really follow the convention), but if they had red background and white letters, it would be definitely against the convention.

The convention regulates, for example, the blue or green background for the signposts on motorways, or yellow or orange background for the temporary signposts.

I am a proponent of green on motorways, even though we have blue in Poland (and green used on all other roads).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Number 5 is interesting. It recommends to use endonyms. So France is in clear violation of this recommendation by using exonyms only. Belgium is also in violation by using Luik or Anvers instead of Liège and Antwerpen.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

ChrisZwolle said:


> Denmark uses red on its signage.
> 
> 
> PR8-29 by European Roads, on Flickr


what do mean the signs or symbols under sonderborg c ?
not the red cross.. the other ones


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The rightmost symbol is an indicator for the Marguerite route, a 3600 kilometer tourist route that brings you to all sights of Denmark. 

The other is a generic sign for tourist sights.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

the last one is similar to the ones in the basque country and catalonia(E)
















http://www.diariovasco.com/noticias/201601/08/media/10374396.JPG
and in france 








https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/im...06b060632f874f53/version/1491575759/image.jpg


----------



## alserrod

Not only in Basque country and Catalonia but whole Spain (well, we can find exemptions anywhere).

The point was to advice previous to cross about directions, pointing exact directions in the cross and, only in confirmation, you will see distance in km.

Have seen a long time ago signals about previous with km. It is too much information. Enough with indications and later confirmation with km distances.


About ovals... not many foreing cities in Spanish signals but I do not remember to see ovals at all. In my homecity, exit directions from city centre through north are pointed as "Huesca, Pau" and Pau hasn't F with oval


----------



## Reivajar

It would be nice to unify the pictograms across Europe...


----------



## Reivajar

alserrod said:


> Not only in Basque country and Catalonia but whole Spain (well, we can find exemptions anywhere).
> 
> The point was to advice previous to cross about directions, pointing exact directions in the cross and, only in confirmation, you will see distance in km.
> 
> Have seen a long time ago signals about previous with km. It is too much information. Enough with indications and later confirmation with km distances.
> 
> 
> About ovals... not many foreing cities in Spanish signals but I do not remember to see ovals at all. In my homecity, exit directions from city centre through north are pointed as "Huesca, Pau" and Pau hasn't F with oval


The only case of ovals that I know in Spain is on the short A-75:









_Wikipedia_


----------



## Kpc21

Reivajar said:


> It would be nice to unify the pictograms across Europe...


I am not really a fan of that. The signage is standardized to a sufficient extent by the Vienna Convention. What I would change there is just clearing up the situation with the right turns on red. Some countries use green arrow signals for that (which is, in my opinion, wrong, as it is against the basic meaning of the green color in road signals), some use yellow ones, some use just static panels, I believe there are also some where the right turn on red is never allowed or always allowed.

But the design of the directional signs - I can't see any reason why it couldn't be up to all the specific countries.

Maybe just the generic shapes of the pictograms - which is unified for many of them (more or less), but for some - there is no unification. Some countries use the center symbol - but it's not unified and may be not understandable for the people from other countries. Some countries use the "interchange" symbol for the interchanges that are "collision-free" for both roads and "exit" symbol for the interchanges that are "collision-free" only for the motorway and lead to a normal intersection or a roundabout on the other road (such interchanges usually connect motorways with normal roads), but the Polish road authorities recently introduced those symbols and... they use the "interchange" one for everything.


----------



## Reivajar

Kpc21 said:


> I am not really a fan of that. The signage is standardized to a sufficient extent by the Vienna Convention. What I would change there is just clearing up the situation with the right turns on red. Some countries use green arrow signals for that (which is, in my opinion, wrong, as it is against the basic meaning of the green color in road signals), some use yellow ones, some use just static panels, I believe there are also some where the right turn on red is never allowed or always allowed.
> 
> But the design of the directional signs - I can't see any reason why it couldn't be up to all the specific countries.
> 
> Maybe just the generic shapes of the pictograms - which is unified for many of them (more or less), but for some - there is no unification. Some countries use the center symbol - but it's not unified and may be not understandable for the people from other countries. Some countries use the "interchange" symbol for the interchanges that are "collision-free" for both roads and "exit" symbol for the interchanges that are "collision-free" only for the motorway and lead to a normal intersection or a roundabout on the other road (such interchanges usually connect motorways with normal roads), but the Polish road authorities recently introduced those symbols and... they use the "interchange" one for everything.


Sorry, I was referring to the touristic / cultural / travelers pictograms. You're right, most of the most common are somehow similar. Different styles, though, but it should work. There are not, as far as I know, studies checking the knowledge and understanding of European signs among European drivers. As the knowledge of them is already pretty bad with the own country's signs, I wouldn't be surprised of pretty bad results. Regarding colors schemes, well... I don't think there is any interest in changing them as it seems it works out, and digital / AR informational systems are increasingly more common, overcoming many of the existing issues. It would be possible to develop a single European standard, but negotiations would last forever... :lol:


----------



## Kanadzie

Kpc21 said:


> What I would change there is just clearing up the situation with the right turns on red.


EU should step in and mandate all countries to adopt universal permission for right (or left) turn on red unless specifically prohibited by a sign
and use the simple and clear Canadian sign in such case :cheers:


----------



## Kpc21

But then there is a problem with the left turn signals. If there is a green left turn signal (the ordinary one, not the "turn on red" one) for the drivers from the opposite, turning right on red can't be allowed for you - as the driver having that green left turn signal is allowed to expect that no-one will be allowed to turn into the same road, even conditionally. Nowadays in Poland it is done in such a way that the right turn on red arrow disappears during such a signal for the drivers from the opposite. So this has to be done in form of a light or with a big change of the regulations.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Kanadzie said:


> EU should step in and mandate all countries to adopt universal permission for right (or left) turn on red unless specifically prohibited by a sign
> and use the simple and clear Canadian sign in such case :cheers:




“Advanced green when flashing” I wonder how many non-Canadians, even English-speaking ones, read that and say “huh?”


----------



## Kanadzie

Kpc21 said:


> But then there is a problem with the left turn signals. If there is a green left turn signal (the ordinary one, not the "turn on red" one) for the drivers from the opposite, turning right on red can't be allowed for you - as the driver having that green left turn signal is allowed to expect that no-one will be allowed to turn into the same road, even conditionally. Nowadays in Poland it is done in such a way that the right turn on red arrow disappears during such a signal for the drivers from the opposite. So this has to be done in form of a light or with a big change of the regulations.


It isn't so bad. In Quebec, it seems customary to put "no turn on red" sign when there is a left-turn signal. But in Ontario it is rare. You just rely on the common sense and logic of the drivers making the right turn to look carefully. I dare say, it functions well, I pass a few intersections like this every day. The left-turning traffic has priority every time, and the right-turning must yield always to everyone.


----------



## Kpc21

By the way, do you always have to stop on the red light (like on a STOP sign - stop and then go, even if there is no-one to give way to) when you are allowed to turn right on red?

In Poland it is so, although almost nobody follows this rule.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^In the U.S., yes.


----------



## Kpc21

And do the people follow this rule?


----------



## Penn's Woods

I think so; I certainly do. Does everyone come to a complete stop? Maybe not. But it’s in your own interest to slow down enough to make sure no one’s coming in the lane you’re about to turn into....


----------



## Kpc21

In Poland people usually slow down - but not stop, unless they have to do it to give way to a pedestrian or a vehicle.


----------



## alserrod

Kpc21 said:


> By the way, do you always have to stop on the red light (like on a STOP sign - stop and then go, even if there is no-one to give way to) when you are allowed to turn right on red?
> 
> In Poland it is so, although almost nobody follows this rule.




off-topic

It depends.

- If only one light, it will be for all directions, never mind which ones
- It is quite common to have different lights left/ahead and right. In that case, just look right one
- Have seen in some cities in roundabouts yellow lights to keep in roundabout. This is, to go straight on, red one because you have cars coming from right in green but to turn left and make roundabout, just yield. No traffic, go, traffic, stop


----------



## OulaL

ChrisZwolle said:


> Number 5 is interesting. It recommends to use endonyms. So France is in clear violation of this recommendation by using exonyms only. Belgium is also in violation by using Luik or Anvers instead of Liège and Antwerpen.


That seems to be the case in all Nordic countries.

From Norway, Gothenburg is spelled Gøteborg, not Göteborg.

From Denmark, Flensburg is spelled Flensborg and Malmö is spelled Malmø.

From Sweden, Copenhagen is spelled Köpenhamn, not København, and Bodø is spelled Bodö.

From Finland, Haparanda is spelled Haaparanta and St. Petersburg is spelled Pietari or St. Petersburg (with s), not St. Peterburg and particularly not in cyrillic script.


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> That seems to be the case in all Nordic countries.
> 
> From Norway, Gothenburg is spelled Gøteborg, not Göteborg.
> 
> From Denmark, Flensburg is spelled Flensborg and Malmö is spelled Malmø.
> 
> From Sweden, Copenhagen is spelled Köpenhamn, not København, and Bodø is spelled Bodö.
> 
> From Finland, Haparanda is spelled Haaparanta and St. Petersburg is spelled Pietari or St. Petersburg (with s), not St. Peterburg and particularly not in cyrillic script.


Anyway, it is a recommendation only. A recommendation in such a document is a diplomatic statement, and it means "do whatever you want" in plain English.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Number 5 is interesting. It recommends to use endonyms. So France is in clear violation of this recommendation by using exonyms only. Belgium is also in violation by using Luik or Anvers instead of Liège and Antwerpen.


Belgium's in compliance with its own language laws. And - as pointed out^^ - this is just "recommended."


----------



## Kpc21

Penn's Woods said:


> Belgium's in compliance with its own language laws.


They could just put both the exonym and the endonym on the signs. So it is planned in Poland.

IMO using endonyms is better because:
- on the road maps, always the endonyms are indicated,
- the exonym might be very different from the endonym and not understood by the foreigners. If someone uses a road sign to a city in another country, he is often a foreigner. You are a citizen of the country A, drive through B to C, you know the name of the target city in your language and you check what it is in its own language - but you might not know or have checked how that city in C is called in B.

On the other hand, the endonym might be not understood by the locals in the country where it's placed.


----------



## volodaaaa

Kpc21 said:


> On the other hand, the endonym might be not understood by the locals in the country where it's placed.


That would be shameful lack of general knowledge. Since my childhood I have always known that Wien is Vienna and Györ is Györ.

Endonyms are much better as I has already been noted in this discussion.


----------



## Kpc21

Me not. Although maybe because Austria doesn't border with Poland, while it does with your country.

For me it was always Wiedeń, before I learnt that it's Wien in German or Vienna in English. I "always" knew that Londyn is originally London or that Nowy Jork is originally New York, or that Waszyngton is Washington (although not knowing that if you don't indicate you mean the city or if you don't add D.C. after the name, you may also mean a state on the other end of the country), I also noticed quite early probably somewhere on a map that Praga is Praha in the original. But I think most people in Poland do not know e.g. what's the original name of the city they call Lwów or Wilno. Or, even, let's say, Kolonia if they don't speak German or Marsylia if they don't speak French. Not even saying about more complex ones, like the one we call in Polish Kopenhaga (Copenhagen) - even I would have problems with writing its endonym without checking it - even not taking into account the diacritics. Or the capital of Portugal - in Polish it's Lizbona, in English it's Lisbon, but in Portugal? Also Lisbon? Lisabon? I think I saw somewhere the latter and I guess it might have been the endonym. But I am not sure.

The names of foreign cities are not something which would be generally known by most people, except for those interested in geography or foreign languages or those who know them because they are using this knowledge e.g. they drive through those cities or go there regularly.

On the other hand, there is probably quite a lot of Poles living in some German cities and not knowing their Polish exonyms.

But it's rather an exception. The people who don't have anything to do with a given city normally know it by the exonym and not by the endonym.


----------



## volodaaaa

Kpc21 said:


> Me not. Although maybe because Austria doesn't border with Poland, while it does with your country.
> 
> For me it was always Wiedeń, before I learnt that it's Wien in German or Vienna in English. I "always" knew that Londyn is originally London or that Nowy Jork is originally New York, or that Waszyngton is Washington (although not knowing that if you don't indicate you mean the city or if you don't add D.C. after the name, you may also mean a state on the other end of the country), I also noticed quite early probably somewhere on a map that Praga is Praha in the original. But I think most people in Poland do not know e.g. what's the original name of the city they call Lwów or Wilno. Or, even, let's say, Kolonia if they don't speak German or Marsylia if they don't speak French. Not even saying about more complex ones, like the one we call in Polish Kopenhaga (Copenhagen) - even I would have problems with writing its endonym without checking it - even not taking into account the diacritics. Or the capital of Portugal - in Polish it's Lizbona, in English it's Lisbon, but in Portugal? Also Lisbon? Lisabon? I think I saw somewhere the latter and I guess it might have been the endonym. But I am not sure.
> 
> The names of foreign cities are not something which would be generally known by most people, except for those interested in geography or foreign languages or those who know them because they are using this knowledge e.g. they drive through those cities or go there regularly.
> 
> On the other hand, there is probably quite a lot of Poles living in some German cities and not knowing their Polish exonyms.
> 
> But it's rather an exception. The people who don't have anything to do with a given city normally know it by the exonym and not by the endonym.


Apologizes. I have forgotten to add that I meant neighbour countries.

But I agree with what has been told recently. You know the endonym of your destination and this is what counts.


----------



## Zagor666

Bosnia :cheers:

http://fs1.directupload.net/images/181028/88uubjty.jpg


----------



## SRC_100

^^
Is this in Tuzla or hereabouts?


----------



## Zagor666

SRC_100 said:


> ^^
> Is this in Tuzla or hereabouts?


It is Tuzla


----------



## alserrod

Why Serbia is in an oval and not Croatia?


----------



## Alex_ZR

alserrod said:


> Why Serbia is in an oval and not Croatia?


Because central direction sign is from Yugoslav time, while left and right are newer. Central and right sign are actually the same, the only difference is putting Orašje as the last place in BIH before Croatian border instead of Zagreb.


----------



## nestvaran

Believe it or not the middle one is a Yugoslav era sign that withstood the test of time very well. You can see the resemblence












edit Alex was faster


----------



## MortisPL

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.104...4!1s09dQJDiRxGok5ufASDg52A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

As far as Wrocław and Dresden in Prague are not that special - Szczecin certainly is. Well, there is one special thing about this Wroclav sign - it's written neither in Czech (cz. Vratislav), nor in Polish (pl. Wrocław) 



And a ferry from Gozdowice, PL to Germany through Odra river:









http://www.architektura.pomorze.pl/admin/foto/1309722690.jpg


----------



## Kemo

Čadca (SK) and Toruń (PL) are partner cities and they also happen to be situated on the same route (E75). So this distance sign to Toruń on route E75 in Slovakia actually makes sense. 
https://www.google.pl/maps/@49.4246...4!1saxlyVN3fhtWBzVZPrftkUA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

However, I haven't seen an analogous sign in Toruń


----------



## Corvinus

The southern extremity of B27 in Germany runs through an almost-enclave that is surrounded by Swiss territory to the south, east and north and much of the west. Therefore all directions lead to Swiss towns:










In fact, B27 is interrupted by Swiss territory, continuing as Swiss road 4 from the border north of Jestetten, then becoming B27 again after the next border crossing at Bargen.


----------



## Verso

^^ And the Swiss road 4 (H4) is also interrupted by Germany here, so it's B27 (D) –> H4 (CH) –> B27 (D) –> H4 (CH). But I wouldn't call it an enclave in any way (except railway-wise), because you can easily access it by car from the rest of Germany. I drove here from Schaffhausen to Zürich in 1999.


----------



## Verso

Not a foreign city (except Zagreb), but this is the only sign in Ljubljana I know of where Hungary (H) is signed. The signs are old, btw.


----------



## Corvinus

Montenegro, around Herceg Novi:


----------



## Verso

^^ So it's Herceg Novi–Split via Trebinje, not Dubrovnik. I guess because there's one border crossing less.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Corvinus said:


> Montenegro, around Herceg Novi:




I thought they used Cyrillic there.


----------



## Tenjac

Penn's Woods said:


> I thought they used Cyrillic there.


Although Cyrillic script is co-official in Montenegro, it is rarely used officially especially since independence. Today, 13 years later, this is even more emphasised. Montenegrins use Latin script and Serbs from Montenegro Cyrillic.


----------



## italystf

^^Strange to see a motorway symbol on a sign in a country without motorways (although it refers to a Croatian motorway).
It's similar to signs in San Marino pointing to A14. But Herceg Novi is around 160 km from the southern terminus of A1 in Croatia.


----------



## italystf

Tenjac said:


> Although Cyrillic script is co-official in Montenegro, it is rarely used officially especially since independence. Today, 13 years later, this is even more emphasised. Montenegrins use Latin script and Serbs from Montenegro Cyrillic.


Moreover, while all Montenegrins (and probably also Serbs, Bulgarians, Russians,...) can read Latin too, most Western tourists (and also Croats, Albanians, Greeks, etc...) won't be able to understand Cyrillic signs.


----------



## WonderlandPark

In Georgia, signs for Azerbaijan and Iran


----------



## Verso

There's a new sign in Slovenia with a bunch of Balkan countries signed because it's mandatory for trucks to drive on motorways. I think it shows as many as 6 countries in ovals, namely BIH, SRB, MNE, BG and I think two more, perhaps HR and RO.


----------



## xzmattzx

I went through a few pages here and there, but have not seen any examples of cities in other countries named on American road signs. In Buffalo, highways to Canada simply say "Canada". In San Diego, highways to Mexico say "International Border". Are there Canadian or Mexican cities on American road signs?

By the way, there is a road sign for Buffalo, New York, in Fort Erie, Ontario, Canada, right before the border.


----------



## kokomo

WonderlandPark said:


> In Georgia, signs for Azerbaijan and Iran


On what language are those letters?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Georgian. The road number is S1.


----------



## Penn's Woods

xzmattzx said:


> I went through a few pages here and there, but have not seen any examples of cities in other countries named on American road signs. In Buffalo, highways to Canada simply say "Canada". In San Diego, highways to Mexico say "International Border". Are there Canadian or Mexican cities on American road signs?
> 
> By the way, there is a road sign for Buffalo, New York, in Fort Erie, Ontario, Canada, right before the border.




Montreal shows up on I-87. On distance markers as far south as Orange County, as the control city from I-90 in Albany. And I think I’ve seen “Vancouver BC” (as opposed to Vancouver, Wash.) on pictures of signs in Seattle.


----------



## WonderlandPark

xzmattzx said:


> I went through a few pages here and there, but have not seen any examples of cities in other countries named on American road signs. In Buffalo, highways to Canada simply say "Canada". In San Diego, highways to Mexico say "International Border". Are there Canadian or Mexican cities on American road signs?


Interstate 5 north of Seattle










Hwy 61 on the North Shore of Minnesota


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> There's a new sign in Slovenia with a bunch of Balkan countries signed because it's mandatory for trucks to drive on motorways. I think it shows as many as 6 countries in ovals, namely BIH, SRB, MNE, BG and I think two more, perhaps HR and RO.


A3 approaching intersection with A1. It is there for at least 2 months already. There are no RO and BG afaik but MK and maybe even AL (or GR)


----------



## Palance

italystf said:


> ^^Strange to see a motorway symbol on a sign in a country without motorways (although it refers to a Croatian motorway).


I think that the Bosnian A1 is meant here.


----------



## Verso

x-type said:


> A3 approaching intersection with A1. It is there for at least 2 months already. There are no RO and BG afaik but MK and maybe even AL (or GR)


The truck ban is valid since 1st July, so I don't see why it should be there already two months. I saw it on A1 by Postojna and BG was definitely on the sign.


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> The truck ban is valid since 1st July, so I don't see why it should be there already two months. I saw it on A1 by Postojna and BG was definitely on the sign.


I saw it for sure when I was looking for the Bible in Italian hotels (find it at Rest Area thread, middle June it was). But I'd somehow say that I saw it once before that too recently. (The one on A3 it is)


----------



## x-type

Only for Verso


----------



## alserrod

Where is it?


----------



## x-type

alserrod said:


> Where is it?


A3 approaching intersection with A1.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> ^^ So it's Herceg Novi–Split via Trebinje, not Dubrovnik. I guess because there's one border crossing less.


I saw this sign last October, and I wondered the same. I asked someone in Herceg Novi, and he reckoned that there were two reasons for it:

1. To avoid the chaos of Dubrovnik and the Karasovici crossing, especially in summer. The road via Trebinje also has almost no traffic.
2. To get traffic to use the Herceg Novi toll road.

The older sign here also has the motorway symbol. 

Interesting point: there's no information given about the toll road until you reach the toll booths.


----------



## Verso

x-type said:


> Only for Verso


Almost entire Balkans on one sign.  Someone should tell them that MK has changed to NMK.


----------



## volodaaaa

Verso said:


> Almost entire Balkans on one sign.  Someone should tell them that MK has changed to NMK.


Meh. They should have posted YU + RO + BG instead.

But beat this. I think I have already sent it here. :nuts:


----------



## alserrod

EU?

Weird!!!

How old is it?


----------



## Eulanthe

alserrod said:


> EU?
> 
> Weird!!!
> 
> How old is it?


Before 2004, that's for sure. It's a sign directing traffic to the SK/A border crossing at Zahorska Ves / Angern, and probably dates from 2001 when the ferry opened, as it also has Clo/Zoll. The reason why Czechs could also use the border crossing was probably related to the way that they (still) don't consider the Czech Republic to be a foreign country, 

I think these signs reflect the clumsy way how Slovakia signed border crossings that were only open for certain groups, as I think Austria did the same.


----------



## x-type

volodaaaa said:


> Meh. They should have posted YU + RO + BG instead.
> 
> But beat this. I think I have already sent it here. :nuts:


Oo, sign for Czechoslovakia! How cute!


----------



## Verso

x-type said:


> Only for Verso
> 
> https://i.ibb.co/GCk538R/20190720-155736.jpg


Btw, I don't think RO, BG and (N)MK are necessary (SRB is enough), but I would add Split.


----------



## Patrick

xzmattzx said:


> I went through a few pages here and there, but have not seen any examples of cities in other countries named on American road signs. In Buffalo, highways to Canada simply say "Canada". In San Diego, highways to Mexico say "International Border". Are there Canadian or Mexican cities on American road signs?
> 
> By the way, there is a road sign for Buffalo, New York, in Fort Erie, Ontario, Canada, right before the border.


Winnipeg on I-29 north of Grand Forks, ND
https://www.google.de/maps/@47.9980...4!1svUy7Ob22yRaPLt6taUamFw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Lethbridge on I-15 north of Great Falls, MT
https://www.google.de/maps/@47.5284...4!1s-d41UXdG5WdRz1Q0eS2Vdg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Vancouver on I-5 north of Seattle
https://www.google.de/maps/@48.2778...4!1s8RilCRn6tsMuff3LXBgIXA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

(Ciudad) Juarez on I-10 in El Paso
https://www.google.de/maps/@31.7780...4!1svpMk41TKfxyShKrQkIdQlA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## Verso

Verso said:


> Btw, I don't think RO, BG and (N)MK are necessary (SRB is enough), but I would add Split.


No more, Dalmatia will be exempt since 1st August (including Dubrovnik). But not Neum.


----------



## kokomo

Corvinus said:


> Croatia, for evident reasons, has tons of signs to locations in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Here's one taken on the A1 motorway between Makarska and Split:


Lovely highway that. I drove it last year and it was impeccable.

By the way, why is Bisko shown in yellow?


----------



## Corvinus

Zagor666 said:


> Germany
> 
> https://s17.directupload.net/images/190929/bdu4qq3n.jpg


Great spot! It's common to see French cities signposted in south-western Germany, but I wasn't aware of one with _exclusively_ French cities listed ...


----------



## x-type

kokomo said:


> Lovely highway that. I drove it last year and it was impeccable.
> 
> By the way, why is Bisko shown in yellow?


In Croatia direction signs are classified as follows:
green - motorways
blue - expressways (motorroads)
yellow - state/county/local roads
white - city streets

In this particular example it should be on the blue background too because you are exiting to expressway, and on expressway it will be on yellow background.


----------



## Zagor666

Corvinus said:


> Great spot! It's common to see French cities signposted in south-western Germany, but I wasn't aware of one with _exclusively_ French cities listed ...


That´s because nothing in Germany is left, the sign is after Saarbrücken near the border. There is one on the A57 after Goch just before the border signing only Nijmegen and Rotterdam but i am too lazy to ge there and make a picture


----------



## Palance

Here is the picture  http://wegnummers.nl/de/d001/DSC04444a57.jpg


----------



## Penn's Woods

^*Nimwegen. :troll:


----------



## Zagor666

Palance said:


> Here is the picture  http://wegnummers.nl/de/d001/DSC04444a57.jpg


 Great :cheers: 
Technically they could sign Rotterdam in Cologne already, at least on a distance sign. I mean they sign Krefeld and that is not really a very big or very well known city. They sign, or signed now its Eindhoven, Antwerpen on the A4 so why not Rotterdam on the A57.

What about the A3 after Emmerich, could you drive by and check that location?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Please delete - asked a question that I realized made no sense. :-(


----------



## Palance

Zagor666 said:


> They sign, or signed now its Eindhoven, Antwerpen on the A4


Picture: http://wegnummers.nl/de/d001/DSC03552a4.jpg

What about the A3 after Emmerich, could you drive by and check that location? [/QUOTE]
http://autobahnen.nummerplaten.info/BAB003/S6301184-BAB3.jpg

(Those are not my pictures BTW)


----------



## Dantiscum

They are starting to change the names of foreign cities on highway signs in Poland - from now on the polish name will be put on first place and the endonym (in this case latin transliteration from the cyrilic alphabet) will be put in brackets after the polish exonym. They are starting from Lwów / Lviv on the A4 near the ukrainian border.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Dantiscum said:


> They are starting to change the names of foreign cities on highway signs in Poland - from now on the polish name will be put on first place and the endonym (in this case latin transliteration from the cyrilic alphabet) will be put in brackets after the polish exonym. They are starting from Lwów / Lviv on the A4 near the ukrainian border.




Not sure I see the point of transliterated Ukrainian as opposed to just Ukrainian....


----------



## Verso

^^ "L'viv" is better known in Central and Western Europe than either "Lwów" or "Львів". Ukrainians probably also know what "L'viv" means, but ideally there should be all three names IMO.


----------



## Kpc21

Penn's Woods said:


> Not sure I see the point of transliterated Ukrainian as opposed to just Ukrainian....


Hm... L'viv is transliterated Ukrainian, just Ukrainian isn't present there as it would be Львів. And Lwów is not a transliteration, nor a transcription, but just the Polish exonym, similar to Londyn, Nowy Jork or Paryż.


----------



## Zagor666

Palance said:


> Picture: http://wegnummers.nl/de/d001/DSC03552a4.jpg
> 
> What about the A3 after Emmerich, could you drive by and check that location?


http://autobahnen.nummerplaten.info/BAB003/S6301184-BAB3.jpg

(Those are not my pictures BTW)[/QUOTE]

This guy is phenomenal, you have a dinner and a bottle of vine :cheers:

i know i posted this one few years ago but here it is again cause the old one is probably gone. A4 a few meters after Autobahnkreuz Köln-West. 



https://s17.directupload.net/images/191001/f2kg3vli.jpg


----------



## Penn's Woods

Kpc21 said:


> Hm... L'viv is transliterated Ukrainian, just Ukrainian isn't present there as it would be Львів. And Lwów is not a transliteration, nor a transcription, but just the Polish exonym, similar to Londyn, Nowy Jork or Paryż.




Tak, rozumiem.


----------



## Kanadzie

I think cities like Lwow and Wilno are particular exceptions due to the Polish exonym being used "officially" by residents speaking Polish at least at some point in history though. Paryz would be just useless in comparison IMO (and Nowy Jork always makes me laugh, though you do see it flipping around on the Okecie airport departures screens...)


----------



## Penn's Woods

Kanadzie said:


> I think cities like Lwow and Wilno are particular exceptions due to the Polish exonym being used "officially" by residents speaking Polish at least at some point in history though. Paryz would be just useless in comparison IMO (and Nowy Jork always makes me laugh, though you do see it flipping around on the Okecie airport departures screens...)




What’s your first language, out of curiosity?


----------



## Verso

Canadian?


----------



## PovilD

Greetings from Kowno, Litwa :lol:


----------



## Dantiscum

PovilD said:


> Greetings from Kowno, Litwa :lol:


How is the case solved in Lithuania?


----------



## Kemo

The same way as in the new Polish approach.

https://www.google.pl/maps/@54.6280...yWi44icOg0yRUiXMWQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1


----------



## riiga

Just use Lemberg :troll:


----------



## Zagor666

Hungary :cheers:



https://s17.directupload.net/images/191006/edyosxxo.jpg

Serbia :cheers:



https://s17.directupload.net/images/191006/85lqezfp.jpg

Zombor, sounds like the name of a town where zombies live :crazy:


----------



## Verso

^^ There's this 'Бајмок' signed in Hungary, but I've never seen a sign with 'Београд'.


----------



## volodaaaa

Verso said:


> There's this 'Бајмок' signed in Hungary, but I've never seen a sign with 'Београд'.


However it does not look professional even if it's official. The typeface is completely different. But don't worry, road sign designers use their creativity in my country too. They often think of doing it above the standard framework and it usually ends up in contradictory.


----------



## Nimróad

This font seems good:
https://www.egerhirek.hu/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/m3.jpg

But I'm not sure the use of it. Those letters in Hungary looks weird.... Mukachevo would be more understandable than cirillic.


----------



## hkskyline

Hong Kong road sign directing to Zhuhai and Macao :


----------



## PovilD

Dantiscum said:


> How is the case solved in Lithuania?


Usually, we firstly put local name then followed by official foreign name.

For example, like this:
Varšuva/Warszawa (PL)

or like this:

Varšuva
Warszawa (PL)

In this case, prefix PL, LV, etc. is usually used in the middle between local and foreign name. Btw, this how Latvians and Finnish write their names in different languages, except Finnish don't use country prefix as far as I know.

Our slash (/) is is used similarly like Hungarian dash (-).


----------



## Alex_ZR

In Serbia, foreign city names are written in English, which is mostly the same the native one (Budapest, Zagreb, Sofia, Skopje...).


----------



## Zagor666

Verso said:


> ^^ There's this 'Бајмок' signed in Hungary, but I've never seen a sign with 'Београд'.


Its probably easier and makes more sense when they do it on, let´s say, local signs instead on a motorway. i bet there is a Zombor / Sombor / Сомбор sign in Baja


----------



## Alex_ZR

Zagor666 said:


> Its probably easier and makes more sense when they do it on, let´s say, local signs instead on a motorway. i bet there is a Zombor / Sombor / Сомбор sign in Baja


There is Zombor/Sombor:

https://goo.gl/maps/VaRBQBzDbsiPoTwD7


----------



## Zagor666

Germany :cheers:



https://s17.directupload.net/images/191008/2g8plkln.jpg

Croatia :cheers:



https://s17.directupload.net/images/191008/yeismov2.jpg

Hungary :cheers:



https://s17.directupload.net/images/191008/xcrwptlu.jpg


----------



## Palance

Zagor666 said:


> Croatia :cheers:


A well-known mistake which is here for a very long time: SCG is incorrect since it is SRB for a long time. Even new signs in this region have signs with SCG (Serbia-Montenegro) on it.


----------



## Zagor666

Palance said:


> A well-known mistake which is here for a very long time: SCG is incorrect since it is SRB for a long time. Even new signs in this region have signs with SCG (Serbia-Montenegro) on it.


Maybe they just wait for the next change after SFRJ, SRJ, SCG and SRB. :grass:


----------



## Zagor666

Hungary. The Sign is wrong, its Žilina not Zlin. The problem is, there is a city, not far away from Žilina, called Zlin. 



https://s17.directupload.net/images/191021/uwyhpkh4.jpg

Croatia :cheers:



https://s17.directupload.net/images/191022/mloqysoi.jpg

And Hungary again. Its interesting that they sign Maribor on the M86 and also on the M85 but not on the M7, not eeven on the M70. I miss Graz here, and not only here but also on the crossing M1/M85. 



https://s17.directupload.net/images/191022/h5r6yc6h.jpg


----------



## Patrick

my favorite sign in Belgium in terms of bad taste (showing also dutch and german places)
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/iWZ0k9EKKlZVMpe54_S0Ug 

last time i drove in south east belgium was in 2007 or 2008. the french names on many bilingual signs in this area were oversprayed with grey paint to make them unreadable and you can only read the german name. apparently since then some of those signs have not been cleaned/repaired/changed as this recent picture shows
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/0h0VIcwEYi71xrkag0eawg


----------



## isaidso

Courtesy of AARoads


----------



## Patrick

two pictures (1x Autobahn, 1x non-Autobahn) from mapillary for every german neighbor, clockwise, beginning in the north.

DK: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Ha0q20UlIrQOsHVFPBPSxw
DK: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/6QVwuCj5AduB-CPD5UZQ0w

PL: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/BZeuNNyrscAGvEd3CYeh9w
PL: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/q8Mu4Ozu7skkO-janrNcRw

CZ: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Ie_JqvfS8-PHD4TZhIYvHw
CZ: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/bonxFHJ6KP_ZrrZX-VH3hA

AT: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/ke9m2l231BugJuOR9OEIKg
AT: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/XRAwcGVWBynNgrNktCHqug

CH: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/E8JqEuXdhDvbXeZES87NCw
CH: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/xywJWMY61dCpdOQEn4MPBw
CH bonus: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/In5e1FfWUGivo6wwTgPHsA

FR: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/tQnu0dCrGX4Wq7ItsUIMIA
FR: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/kviaDgozpiyxfJ5y3FZ5Vw

LU: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/cf2EnRz6GOMLKYZthAUH1g
LU: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/U45qY5j6-jmJVkMrAhMi7Q

BE: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/DkDulfWRadw3FB4Ow0l4Dg
BE: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/D9QwUq9M1q5pEq7eseGBWQ

NL: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/S7ioe_nRFAnfs3Y4y7CXWA
NL: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/j_5IBrH1_GhCRekkI1e2bw


----------



## Zagor666

Germany(Elmshorn) :cheers:



https://s19.directupload.net/images/191026/phw7czer.jpg


----------



## Kiweh

Unfortunately we have no land borders in New Zealand...But we do have a select few signs giving directions and distance to the other island!  

https://imgur.com/a/QkwJN7M


----------



## tbo_147

https://www.google.fi/maps/@60.2621937,25.1755447,3a,70.2y,79.78h,91.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYRHUp1yZybtkk8ohTq1BDg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=fi

A mileage signpost near Helsinki in E18/7 towards Kotka. For me the distances to Vaalimaa, Vyborg and St Petersburg should be shown in E18 mileage signs and leave the Kotka only for vt 7 mileage signs to make a clear difference between national road and European road.


----------



## anolipa

*Signs in Dielheim, Mühlhausen, östringen, Bad Schönborn, Kronau*

Signs in Dielheim, Mühlhausen, östringen, Bad Schönborn, Kronau


----------



## Zagor666

Hungary :cheers:


----------



## Verso

Zagor666 said:


>


Hmm, the difference is more than just 36 km, it's rather 100 km.


----------



## Adrian.02

As far as I know,this is the biggest road sign in my city,Timisoara(Romania) pointing to three different foreign cities,located in two countries.


This used to be it until about 5-6 years ago,when the old sign was changed after getying attention from the media for the fact that it was pointing to a now obsolete country(Yugoslavia).
Also,Szeged(HU) was not signed on the National Road 6(only Sannicolau Mare is signed),as the border crossing at Cenad did not open until the late 90s.
URL=https://www.directupload.net]







[/URL]


----------



## pascalwithvespa95

Adrian.02 said:


> As far as I know,this is the biggest road sign in my city,Timisoara(Romania) pointing to three different foreign cities,located in two countries.
> 
> 
> This used to be it until about 5-6 years ago,when the old sign was changed after getying attention from the media for the fact that it was pointing to a now obsolete country(Yugoslavia).
> Also,Szeged(HU) was not signed on the National Road 6(only Sannicolau Mare is signed),as the border crossing at Cenad did not open until the late 90s.
> URL=https://www.directupload.net]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL]


I have always wondered if they signed foreign cities in communist Romania...


----------



## Zagor666

Verso said:


> Hmm, the difference is more than just 36 km, it's rather 100 km.


Yeah, this one is prety strange. Its on the road 86 just after the crossing with the 8.
Maybe they just had 1´s, 2´s and 5´s left :colgate:
But it could be right, if you drive over Maribor to Ljubljana.


----------



## Verso

^ Of course you drive from Hungary to Ljubljana over Maribor, where else?


----------



## Adrian.02

[/QUOTE]
I have always wondered if they signed foreign cities in communist Romania...[/QUOTE]
This actually was not a sign from the communist period,more like from the early 90s(but I am not sure).The only thing that confirms that it is a 90s-early 00s sign is the part with "Iulius Mall",as the mall did not open until the early 2000s.
I think that we had signs with "Belgrad" since always scattered around the city.


----------



## Attus

Verso said:


> Hmm, the difference is more than just 36 km, it's rather 100 km.


That sign is HERE.
Accodring to Google, the route from here to Ljubljana is 256km, to Zagreb 192km. 
256/251 may be OK, it may be calculated through some shorter but slower route and/or did not take the very same central point of LJ like Google did so it's more or lass accurate. 
Towards Zagreb they probably calculated by route 74 and motorway M7 - A4, it's 212km which is basically the same like the signed 215 km.


----------



## Zagor666

Verso said:


> ^ Of course you drive from Hungary to Ljubljana over Maribor, where else?


When you drive on the 86 yes, but when you are on the M7 its maybe better to drive via Čakovec-Ptuj instead of Lendava-Maribor. :cheers:


----------



## Attus

Zagor666 said:


> When you drive on the 86 yes, but when you are on the M7 its maybe better to drive via Čakovec-Ptuj instead of Lendava-Maribor. :cheers:


No way. It may have a reason after Croatia joining Schengen (however, Croatian tolls are heavily against this idea), but does not make any sense now.


----------



## Verso

Zagor666 said:


> When you drive on the 86 yes, but when you are on the M7 its maybe better to drive via Čakovec-Ptuj instead of Lendava-Maribor. :cheers:


Maybe until 2008. 



Attus said:


> That sign is HERE.
> Accodring to Google, the route from here to Ljubljana is 256km, to Zagreb 192km.
> 256/251 may be OK, it may be calculated through some shorter but slower route and/or did not take the very same central point of LJ like Google did so it's more or lass accurate.
> Towards Zagreb they probably calculated by route 74 and motorway M7 - A4, it's 212km which is basically the same like the signed 215 km.


You're right, I still have this sign in mind where the difference is 111 km:


----------



## Zagor666

On the sign in Budapest the difference is 119km. 
Maybe there is a Ljubljana-Zagreb sign in Vladivostok and the difference there is 500km :colgate:

One of these 2 must be wrong. Here is a nice example of a wrong distances sign from Bosnia. The distances to Split, Knin and Bosansko Grahovo are all wrong :colgate:


----------



## bzbox

Zagor666 said:


> Hungary :cheers:


Rábafüzes should be Szentgotthárd since it's been merged in 1983.

When on the case, how is going on with Körmend bypass?


----------



## Zagor666

Could be to confusing. 
Some driver could think it´s the other St.Gotthard, an austrian and a suiss destination on one sign, that´s not so unusual :colgate:

Montenegro :cheers:





Croatia :cheers:





Serbia :cheers:



Bosnia :cheers:


----------



## Attus

bzbox said:


> Rábafüzes should be Szentgotthárd since it's been merged in 1983.


Tha name of the border crossing station is Rábafüzes:
http://www.police.hu/hu/hirek-es-informaciok/hatarinfo?field_hat_rszakasz_value=osztr%C3%A1k+hat%C3%A1rszakasz
That sign is correct.


----------



## Zagor666

Lavamünd, Austria :cheers:



This sign makes absolutely no sense at all. It´s a small village near the Slovenian border on a road with no international importance at all except for local border crossings over the Radlpass. To sign Germany here is a joke, you could sign at least 100 destinations that would make more sense starting with Graz ending with Bregenz.


----------



## Verso

^^ There's also a sign for Greece and Turkey there  (at least there used to be). It was quite an important road for trucks before the Karawanks Tunnel was built. There're still many Eastern European trucks driving there (avoiding tolls).


----------



## Zagor666

Verso said:


> ^^ There's also a sign for Greece and Turkey there  (at least there used to be). It was quite an important road for trucks before the Karawanks Tunnel was built. There're still many Eastern European trucks driving there (avoiding tolls).


We have the same here, trucks try to avoid toll on the motorways direction Croatia and Hungary so they drive from Novi Sad via Odžaci and-or Sombor what brings them to Rumenka. Maybe i should stop a few of them, then they can try to avoid my kick in their ass :colgate:


----------



## Zagor666

Luxembourg :cheers:



Germany(Helmstedt) :cheers:



Finnland :cheers: Sign showing distances to Nordkapp, Kaarasjoki und Sticker-City :colgate:


----------



## Attus

Zagor666 said:


> Germany(Helmstedt) :cheers:


Some users here may not know: Helmstedt was a border crossing, one of the few crossings between East and West Germany which were open to travellers between West Germany and West Berlin. The transit motorway from West Berlin to the Rhine-Ruhr region (the current A2) crossed the German-German border at Helmstedt. 
All the towns listed in the left column were German before 1945, all the ones listed in the right column were in West Germany and were available using this crossing.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Attus said:


> Some users here may not know: Helmstedt was a border crossing, one of the few crossings between East and West Germany which were open to travellers between West Germany and West Berlin. The transit motorway from West Berlin to the Rhine-Ruhr region (the current A2) crossed the German-German border at Helmstedt.
> All the towns listed in the left column were German before 1945, all the ones listed in the right column were in West Germany and were available using this crossing.




So what was the purpose of showing all those Danzigs and Königsbergs? Nostalgia? Or was it a prewar sign (and someone had changed the westbound Reichsstraße to Bundes-)?

And could travelers entering the GDR here exit at Magdeburg (so that distance would be usable information)?


----------



## MattiG

Zagor666 said:


> Finnland :cheers: Sign showing distances to Nordkapp, Kaarasjoki und Sticker-City :colgate:


BTW, the sign is trilingual showing all three possible combinations. The topmost part is in Norwegian and Sami, the middle one is in Finnish and Norwegian, and the bottom one is in Finnish and Sami.

The Google imagery shows that the sign was free of stickers in 2011.


----------



## Attus

Penn's Woods said:


> So what was the purpose of showing all those Danzigs and Königsbergs? Nostalgia?


Nostalgia may not be the proper word, but yes, something like that.



> Or was it a prewar sign (and someone had changed the westbound Reichsstraße to Bundes-)?


No way, Helmstedt was an unimportant place before 1945.



> And could travelers entering the GDR here exit at Magdeburg (so that distance would be usable information)?


No. And even less to Königsberg (= Kaliningrad)


----------



## PovilD

Zagor666 said:


> Germany(Helmstedt) :cheers:


Eitkūnai - 936 km 

It was border town in East Prussia near Lithuanian border. Clearly Germanised Baltic (most likely Lithuanian) form:
Eydtkuhn>>Eitkūnas (singular)
Many Lithuanians had lived in former East Prussia, they're were mostly Protestant (non-Prussian Lithuanians were mostly Catholic) and they also were on the slow Germanisation process. I think they are important reason why we have more Western-oriented Lithuania and not some another typical CIS country that probably writes in Cyrillic and didn't saw independence period between World Wars.

Today, this locality is called Чернышевское 

Good to see that the German road #1 originally led to Lithuania :lol: And if there wouldn't be any abolishion of Prussia, it's very likely that road #1 would follow current E28 to this day that would include route through current-day Gdansk and Kaliningrad.


----------



## OulaL

Sign in Trebinje, Serb Republic, Bosnia and Herzegovina.

For some reason Beograd doesn't have a country oval...

Also seems like the Latin version of Bileca is misspelled.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

may be its because beograd is considered for them the same country


----------



## Palance

There are more oval mistakes around Trebinje. Like this one CRO in stead of HR


----------



## Zagor666

I don´t get the system behind this ovals, some are in english, some in country language. It makes absolutely no sense. At olympia everything is better :cheers:


----------



## Penn's Woods

Zagor666 said:


> I don´t get the system behind this ovals, some are in english, some in country language. It makes absolutely no sense. At olympia everything is better :cheers:




Aren’t they standardized, by I don’t know what authority? I mean isn’t D Germany everywhere?


----------



## Attus

Penn's Woods said:


> Aren’t they standardized, by I don’t know what authority? I mean isn’t D Germany everywhere?


Of course they are. However, Zagor is right about the logic: why is germany D, but Austria A (instead of Ö)? Hungary H but Croatia HR?


----------



## OulaL

There is no logic, it's more like an ad hoc thing. At some point Finland changed from SF to FIN, and I still don't know why (maybe MattiG can help).

Besides, Ö doesn't belong to standard latin alphabet.


----------



## MattiG

OulaL said:


> There is no logic, it's more like an ad hoc thing. At some point Finland changed from SF to FIN, and I still don't know why (maybe MattiG can help).


Those things, "distinguishing signs in international traffic", have been coordinated by the UNECE since the Geneva Convention of 1949. Initially, I believe, they were allocated in the first-come-first-served basis. 

Finland switched from SF to FIN in 1993. The reason was that it was difficult to recognize that SF (Suomi-Finland) means Finland. 

The original plan was to adopt the letters FI. However, the minister of transport thought that would be ambiguous to Fiji Islands, and he personally introduced the FIN sign. As everyone knows, there are millions of Fijian cars on European roads, and the ambiguity would have caused severe problems. That ad-hoc operation had an interesting implication: Finland had to submit a reservation to the text of the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic:_ Finland does not consider itself to be bound by the provision in Annex 3 paragraph 4 a) concerning the minimum dimensions of the axes of the ellipse of the distinguishing sign on other motor vehicles and their trailers._ The sticker made according to the rules would have been too big for motorcycles.


----------



## Attus

For significance of Helmstedt check e.g. this picture. Border crossing from West Berlin (British sector) towards the GDR, 1957.
Source: Fortepan/Sattler Katalin


----------



## Penn's Woods

Attus said:


> Of course they are. However, Zagor is right about the logic: why is germany D, but Austria A (instead of Ö)? Hungary H but Croatia HR?




I may have misunderstood. I thought Zagor was saying that a given country is not identified the same way everywhere.


----------



## Kpc21

del


----------



## Kpc21

MattiG said:


> Finland switched from SF to FIN in 1993. The reason was that it was difficult to recognize that SF (Suomi-Finland) means Finland.


There are still some countries that have difficult to recognize acronym.

For example San Marino has RSM (and I guess there are more cars from San Marino in Europe than from Fiji), Switzerland has CH. Initially I thought it's because in some languages (including Polish – but also German, being the national language of a big part of this country), the name of Switzerland starts with the "sh" sound, and in some languages the spelling "ch" may be pronounced as "sh". From what I know know, this isn't the reason, it just stands for Confederation Helvetique or something like that.

Meanwhile, SLO used by Slovenia is quite ambiguous.


----------



## alserrod

AFAIK 

CH = Confoederatio Helvetica

To avoid discussions... name in Latin!!!!


----------



## Zagor666

I can´t remember when i last time saw a car with sich a sticker, today nobody use them and that´s good so. Better pin something nice on your car, like a picture of zagor :colgate:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Like this:


----------



## rheintram

They do exist, indeed. Though often, e.g. in Vienna, I only see the foreign name. Could be a question of space too









gsv


----------



## PovilD

eeee. said:


> Do you have an example?


Most countries use vehicle registration plate country codes (letter count varies from one letter to three letters) while Lithuania uses two letter country codes. For example, D for Germany becomes DE, S for Sweden becomes SE, etc. Three digit codes like RUS for Russia becomes RU, FIN for Finland becomes FI, etc.

Most of our neighbors use two digit codes anyway, so LV, BY, PL are the same as elsewhere. Only Russia and Sweden are written as RU and SE. There are ferry links to Germany though, so theoretically country code on signs should be DE, and not D.

In Lithuania, Russia is written as RU (oval near "Karaliaučius/Kaliningrad"):











For example, in Poland it is written as RUS (oval near "Grzechotki"):









---
Btw, Lithuanians use Original Pre-War Lithuanian names for cities in Kaliningrad Oblast. Kaliningrad is Karaliaučius in Lithuanian, Sovietsk is Tilžė (German: Tilsit), Krasnoznamensk is Lazdynai.


----------



## Adrian.02

rheintram said:


> In Austria our roadsign usually do not use the German name for foreign cities. Some people even tend to believe using the German name is some sign of German nationalism or Austrian revanchism, which I find absurd, since no one believes "Prague" is a sign of the US or the UK claiming sovereignity over Praha or Czechia... I think both names could be used, with preference to the foreign version, e.g. Praha/Prag, or Brno/Brünn.


Totally agree!I would preffer bilingual signs as well.
In Romania,we usually write foreign destinations exclusively in romanian(BeLgrad,BudapestA,etc.)


----------



## Verso

PovilD said:


> It seems that former Yugoslavia tends to use slash too, but not all countries use them.


I've seen slash used only in Slovenia and on that sign from Serbia (Уб/Ub).


----------



## Kpc21

PovilD said:


> Btw, Lithuanians use Original Pre-War Lithuanian names for cities in Kaliningrad Oblast. Kaliningrad is Karaliaučius in Lithuanian, Sovietsk is Tilžė (German: Tilsit), Krasnoznamensk is Lazdynai.


In Poland the official name is Królewiec – but it's used only while referring to the history, not to the current city.


----------



## PovilD

Kpc21 said:


> In Poland the official name is Królewiec – but it's used only while referring to the history, not to the current city.


In spoken language, I think only Sovietsk is called by Lithuanian name - Tilžė (German: Tilsit). In shops, you can find brand "Tilžės sūris" (English: Tilsit cheese). Streets are named with Lithuanian form "Tilžės gatvė" (Tilsit St). Most other cities are called by their Russian names (there are few exceptions). In official setting or media, Russian and Pre-war Lithuanian names are used interchangeably, but leaning toward Russian forms. I think it depends on the context. On street names and road signs, only pre-war forms are used.


----------



## Kpc21

PovilD said:


> In shops, you can find brand "Tilžės sūris" (English: Tilsit cheese)


In Poland we also have ser tylżycki  Although I had no idea the name comes from a town in Kaliningrad district. Now I see the Polish name of Sovetsk is Tylża.

I don't know street names in Poland that would refer to Kaliningrad or Königsberg, but if there are some, they are likely to refer to the pre-war name, so the name of such a street would be Królewiecka. It would be no point naming a street by a city in an enemy country. And if I am not mistaken, it's now named by a Russian officer, so if such a name was granted in the communist times, it would already long have been "decommunized" (if not in 1990s, then recently after PiS came to power in Poland).

Here in central Poland people rather rarely talk about Kaliningrad district, maybe it's different in the regions nearer the border with Russia. As travelling there requires a visa, Kaliningrad district (as well as Belarus) are quite exotic areas for most Poles, definitely more exotic than Ukraine or Lithuania (Ukraine probably being the least exotic one). It's maybe a little bit easier to travel to Lithuania than to Ukraine (as there are no border checks and passport is required) but to travel from Poland to Ukraine you don't need anything more than just a passport. And maybe it's "closer" because the language is much more similar. And Ukraine is much bigger, with much more to see, than Lithuania.

Talking about street names, in Karlsruhe, Germany there is a whole residential districts with street names given by Polish (ex-German) towns. They use their German names, but it's not something you can compare, because Kaliningrad is a new, changed name, which Russians granted this city upon seizing it. It was similar with Łódź, which was renamed by Germans to Litzmannstadt after they seized it during the World War 2. Now this name is kind of taboo and even Germans aren't using it (since the end of the war it's no longer official even in Germany), it's practically only used to refer to a ghetto for Jews that was in the city during the war. One of the longest street names in the city (by the way, it's a very short piece of street, leading to a ghetto memorial) is Aleja Pamięci Ofiar Litzmannstadt Ghetto – Memory of Litzmannstadt Ghetto Victims Avenue.

There is also an old German song "Theo, wir fahren nach Lodz" ("Theo, we're going to Lodz"), where Litzmannstadt obviously doesn't appear, as the song is much older than the war. Before the World War 1 (and still to some extent in the inter-war period), Łódź was a very multicultural city, with a large share of four cultures: Polish, Russian, German and Jewish. Technically it was in Russia (Poland did not exist as a country, Israel either) but not that far away from the German border.

Meanwhile, the names of most ex-German towns that are currently in Poland had the Polish names similar to the German ones (and in most cases both of those names had existed historically). Either in the meaning, or phonetically. E.g. German Schneidemühl ("cutting mill") – Polish Piła ("saw"). I guess it might have referred to a water-powered sawmill. German Kolberg – Polish Kołobrzeg (Polish name means "near the shore", which quite well describes its location, the German seems to be just a germanization of the name with a Slavic origin).


----------



## PovilD

I think we don't hesitate street names for cities located in Kaliningrad Oblast since it's out historical Baltic lands, and primary names are of Baltic-origin. Germans and Russians are seen more like invaders. From historical sense, I think Baltic Prussians are seen as our biggest brothers, even bigger than Latvians, because both nations were actively resisting German invaders (Northern Crusades), for saving their own distinct culture, and as one of the last regions in core parts of Europe without Christianity. Prussians have been Baptized, but lost their culture and language, while Lithuanians saved their language and most parts of the culture even after Baptism. Even in Baltic tribal times, Prussia was seen as the richest Baltic region, and were also known for selling amber to Romans and probably Greeks, which might made them indirectly responsible for the word "electricity"  Without electricity our chats wouldn't be available.

We tend to speak about Kaliningrad more often, since it's the closest area for many parts of Lithuania, including city of Kaunas where I live. For example, we fear for military conflict with Russia, starting the attack from Kaliningrad Oblast. Our big chunk of history of the nation lies on lands which are now Kaliningrad Oblast. Most Lutheran Lithuanians have lived in Klaipėda Region and parts of current-day Kaliningrad Oblast. They contributed greatly for our country existence.


----------



## Alex_ZR

Verso said:


> I've seen slash used only in Slovenia and on that sign from Serbia (Уб/Ub).


We have some more short names 😄


----------



## PovilD

Kpc21 said:


> In Poland we also have ser tylżycki  Although I had no idea the name comes from a town in Kaliningrad district. Now I see the Polish name of Sovetsk is Tylża.


I think my family buys such type of cheese, but we call it just "yellow cheese" in contrast with "white cheese" which is basically compressed curd (Slavic: twarog)  It's called "curd cheese" anyway.












Alex_ZR said:


> We have some more short names 😄


How old is that slash standard for dividing Cyrrilic/Latin? Is it from Yugoslav times, or younger?


----------



## Alex_ZR

PovilD said:


> I think my family buys such type of cheese, but we call it just "yellow cheese" in contrast with "white cheese" which is basically compressed curd (Slavic: twarog)  It's called "curd cheese" anyway.
> 
> How old is that slash standard for dividing Cyrrilic/Latin? Is it from Yugoslav times, or younger?


During socialist Yugoslavia Latin script was dominantly/only used on traffic signs (maybe except Macedonia). But I would say this slash was introduced couple of years ago in Serbia, because on 15-20 year old signs it's one below other:


----------



## PovilD

Alex_ZR said:


> During socialist Yugoslavia Latin script was dominantly/only used on traffic signs (maybe except Macedonia). But I would say this slash was introduced couple of years ago in Serbia, because on 15-20 year old signs it's one below other:


Both signs I saw with slash on this thread look relatively new.


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## Kpc21

PovilD said:


> I think my family buys such type of cheese, but we call it just "yellow cheese" in contrast with "white cheese" which is basically compressed curd (Slavic: twarog)


Yeah but "yellow cheese" has multiple variations, from more worldwide known, e.g. gouda, emmentaler, radamer, massdamer, I'm not sure whether mozarella counts as "yellow cheese". "Ser tylżycki" is just another type.

Curd is something, I guess, more known in English-speaking countries as "cottage cheese". In Poland you can also buy it in this form, we call it "serek wiejski" (literally "countryside cheese"), but more popular is the compressed form you showed. Normally, colloquially, people call it "white cheese", although on the package it usually says "ser twarogowy".

It's tasty, although different from yellow cheese. Yellow cheese is stiff (although soft) and dry, white cheese is watery and loose, you are even able to spread it on bread (or you can easily crush it, e.g. while baking some cheesecake, or to put it inside pierogi, or naleśniki).

Naleśniki are pancakes, crepes, or whatever you call it (I think even in German I found them under two names, Crepes or Pfannkuchen), which get rolled or folded with something inside. The thing inside may be, for example, some jam, but also white cheese.


----------



## PovilD

Yeah there are many types of what would be called "yellow cheese" or similar. I learned that on teenage ages, when started buying junk food and stuff  For example, Mozzarella cheese on pizza, cheddar cheese on hamburgers, etc., but mostly I saw that Tilsit type of cheese in the fridge when I was growing up, calling it just as "yellow cheese" 

I hope we don't get too off topic


----------



## Penn's Woods

PovilD said:


> Yeah there are many types of what would be called "yellow cheese" or similar. I learned that on teenage ages, when started buying junk food and stuff  For example, Mozzarella cheese on pizza, cheddar cheese on hamburgers, etc., but mostly I saw that Tilsit type of cheese in the fridge when I was growing up, calling it just as "yellow cheese"
> 
> I hope we don't get too off topic


I don’t know about off topic, but you’re making me hungry.


----------



## Kpc21

I just ate some bread with smoked salami cheese.


----------



## kokomo

How about former ancient German names to the cities like Lemberg for Lwow, do they still appear?


----------



## Kpc21

We must ask some Germans.

Talking about Lwów itself in Poland, over here everyone uses the name Lwów, the city is practically unknown under its Russian and Ukrainian names.

Although it doesn't belong to Poland from 1945.


----------



## eeee.

kokomo said:


> How about former ancient German names to the cities like Lemberg for Lwow, do they still appear?


I always say Lemberg - when talking to German speaking people. In newspapers or TV programs "Lemberg" is also quite common. It is the current German name of the city and there is no offense behind it.

I also say Hermannstadt, Danzig, Stettin, Pilsen or Breslau, but on the other hand: Brasov, Liberec, Ostrava or Bratislava. I don't know where that comes from. Maybe that's how Journalists usually use it.


----------



## hellrisen

SevenSlavicTribes said:


> ...


Athens in English but Bukuresht in a weird latinized version of the Bulgarian name?

I personally don't care which transcript we use as long as there's some consistency. Having Athens, Bukuresht, Calafat (if we are transcribing from Bulgarian directly then it would be Kalafat), Beograd, Belgrade, etc all over the place makes it feel like a 5 year old is creating the signs...


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## PovilD

You should transcript to Bukure*schtsch* 

I think is very convienent for former Yugoslav countries to write in Latin script, since the languages can be written in both Latin, and Cyrrilic with clear standards. It seems that Bulgarian (and East Slavic languages) though have Romanisation rules, but they have been changing for once in a while. This may have created strange Latin versions of city names


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## PovilD

I found a sign in Klaipėda, Lithuania, indicating Denmark, Sweden, and Germany. You can clearly see two-letter format being used instead of standard D, DK, S ovals.

Source: Mapillary


----------



## Džiugas

The font seems somehow non-standard.


----------



## hellrisen

PovilD said:


> You should transcript to Bukureschtsch
> 
> I think is very convienent for former Yugoslav countries to write in Latin script, since the languages can be written in both Latin, and Cyrrilic with clear standards. It seems that Bulgarian (and East Slavic languages) though have Romanisation rules, but they have been changing for once in a while.


There are strict latinization rules, the issue is noone is following them properly. As we've seen in the screenshots above some names are directly translated in English (Athens), some are using the local spelling of the town (Calafat) and some latinize the Bulgarian spelling (Bukuresht). I know it's a small thing, but my OCD goes off the charts when I see this kind of stuff especially on brand new road signs  

As for the Latin script, Bulgaria will never adopt it, so efforts must go on proper rules for the translation/transliteration of signs to fix this mess.


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

hellrisen said:


> There are strict latinization rules, the issue is noone is following them properly. As we've seen in the screenshots above some names are directly translated in English (Athens), some are using the local spelling of the town (Calafat) and some latinize the Bulgarian spelling (Bukuresht). I know it's a small thing, but my OCD goes off the charts when I see this kind of stuff especially on brand new road signs
> 
> As for the Latin script, Bulgaria will never adopt it, so efforts must go on proper rules for the translation/transliteration of signs to fix this mess.


Bulgaria will never adopt the Yugoslav or the Polish/Czech/Slovak Latin script variants. For us they are just funny and weird. Has something to do with our Bulgarian-made Cyrillic tradition. In the 60s and 70s the Cyrilic signs were transliterated into Latin using the German style.

SCHUMEN
SCHUMENSKO PIVO


----------



## Verso

SevenSlavicTribes said:


> The last thing Bulgarians will use is a Serbian-style something. (joke)
> We don't like those weird Latin letter variations like š, ž, ć used by other Slavophones.
> I prefer the English form for all foreign towns
> 
> BUCHAREST
> ATHENS
> ISTANBUL
> BELGRADE


I find it even weirder to write two (or even more) letters for one sound. And even English has two letters with something (a dot) above them (i and j). Anyway, you won't find those English names on signs in their countries (except maybe Athens in Greece).


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## SevenSlavicTribes

Verso said:


> I find it even weirder *to write two (or even more) letters for one sound*. Anyway, you won't find those English names on signs in their countries (except maybe Athens in Greece).


This is why we have the Bulgarian alphabet.


----------



## Verso

I was talking about English. Writing 'š' is surely more convenient than 'sh' (which don't even sound like 'š' when pronounced quickly one after another). Not to mention 'tsch' in German.


----------



## alserrod

IMHO, except in those cases where there's a real name in official name and, providing it is useful, in local name too. Other translations worth nothing at all.
What are you going to read in a map?

It is not foreing cities but... some time ago, before GPS and so, I was in Greece with friends. We had a car and one was driving, another one was with the map of streets and I was trying to understand street names. There were, obviously, written in Greek and out map was in English only.
May in tourism had given us a bilingual map it would be easier to arrive anywhere


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

Verso said:


> I was talking about English. Writing 'š' is surely more convenient than 'sh' (which don't even sound like 'š' when pronounced quickly one after another). Not to mention 'tsch' in German.


tsch like in Tschetschenien


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## Verso

Worst thing is when people with the Cyrillic script transliterate Latin-script names back into the Latin script. I've already seen Russians turn Ljubljana into Lyublyana. 🤦


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

Verso said:


> Worst thing is when people with the Cyrillic script transliterate Latin-script names back into the Latin script. I've already seen Russians turn Ljubljana into Lyublyana. 🤦


LJUBLJANA (9)
ЛЮБЛЯНА (7)

WARSZAWA (8)
ВАРШАВА (7)


----------



## Verso

SevenSlavicTribes said:


> LJUBLJANA (9)
> ЛЮБЛЯНА (7)


Korean: 류블랴나 (4) 😄



> WARSZAWA (8)
> ВАРШАВА (7)


바르샤바 (4)

I don't know why you write just one letter; 'ju' and 'ja' are two different sounds, aren't they?


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

Verso said:


> Korean: 류블랴나 (4) 😄
> 
> 바르샤바 (4)
> 
> I don't know why you write just one letter; 'ju' and 'ja' are two different sounds, aren't they?


Ю - JU
Я - JA


----------



## Verso

^ But they are two different sounds, no? (j+u and j+a)


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

Verso said:


> ^ But they are two different sounds, no? (j+u and j+a)


no
СОФИЯ 
БЪЛГАРИЯ


----------



## PovilD

Džiugas said:


> The font seems somehow non-standard.


Local municipalities (usually not National Road Administration) sometimes tend to choose different design than what is provided by national signage standards.

That sign in Klaipėda is not following almost any signage standard. Only country code and ferry icon design were followed.


----------



## PovilD

I think Cyrillic writing countries should universally use *ISO 9 *standard. There shouldn't be any sh, zh, etc. in transliterations.

Cities originally written in Cyrillic, if transliterated, should be using ISO 9 on road signs too.

Latin script names should always be written in their original forms, not Bukuresht, but Bucuresti (Bucureşti). If there is a local form of foreign name written only in Cyrrilic, only Cyrillic version should be written along with original Latin form in that language.



Verso said:


> Worst thing is when people with the Cyrillic script transliterate Latin-script names back into the Latin script. I've already seen Russians turn Ljubljana into Lyublyana. 🤦


It's interesting that "j" in English is something like "ž" sound. At least, usually. Ljubljana could potentially be read as Lžublžana in English, while Lyublyana could resemble form that is easier to read for English-reader.


----------



## Adrian.02

PovilD said:


> I think Cyrillic writing countries should universally use *ISO 9 *standard. There shouldn't be any sh, zh, etc. in transliterations.
> 
> Cities originally written in Cyrillic, if transliterated, should be using ISO 9 on road signs too.
> 
> Latin script names should always be written in their original forms, not Bukuresht, but Bucuresti (Bucureşti). If there is a local form of foreign name written only in Cyrrilic, only Cyrillic version should be written along with original Latin form in that language.
> 
> 
> It's interesting that "j" in English is something like "ž" sound. At least, usually. Ljubljana could potentially be read as Lžublžana in English, while Lyublyana could resemble form that is easier to read for English-reader.


This also applies to (some) romanians.
As for us,the "j" is ž and "c" is K/č
So it would be Ptuž and PlitviČe.


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

PovilD said:


> I think Cyrillic writing countries should universally use *ISO 9 *standard. There shouldn't be any sh, zh, etc. in transliterations.
> 
> Cities originally written in Cyrillic, if transliterated, should be using ISO 9 on road signs too.
> 
> Latin script names should always be written in their original forms, not Bukuresht, but Bucuresti (Bucureşti). If there is a local form of foreign name written only in Cyrrilic, only Cyrillic version should be written along with original Latin form in that language.
> 
> 
> It's interesting that "j" in English is something like "ž" sound. At least, usually. Ljubljana could potentially be read as Lžublžana in English, while Lyublyana could resemble form that is easier to read for English-reader.


Cyrillic countries just hate it when somebody is telling them what to do. We are a bit strange. This is why I said, English is the best solution for the transliteration.


----------



## PovilD

SevenSlavicTribes said:


> no
> СОФИЯ
> БЪЛГАРИЯ


In our language (Lithuanian) there are sounds "ie" (which basically letter "e" in Russian) and I think "uo" (Latvians write only "o" for this sound) that are written as digraphs but are understood as one sound. I learned that on primary school. It was strange for me, since I hear sounds of two letters that are connected. There are English sounds too that might sound as having two letters in it for foreign speakers.


----------



## kokomo

alserrod said:


> some time ago, before GPS and so, I was in Greece with friends. We had a car and one was driving, another one was with the map of streets and I was trying to understand street names. There were, obviously, written in Greek and out map was in English only.


I recall my only until now trip to Greece, more than 20 years ago, and the fun I had trying to decipher the Greek alphabet with all those alphas betas and similar learnt from math. I loved it...

but for a while, then I longed for English characters because it was really annoying when going in the Metro and you couldn't glimpse the name of the station and didn't know if you had to step off or not


----------



## Kpc21

Verso said:


> ^ But they are two different sounds, no? (j+u and j+a)


Russian also has JE (Е) and JO (Ё).


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

Kpc21 said:


> Russian also has JE (Е) and JO (Ё).


Bulgaria uses ЙE and ЙO

ЙЕМЕН - YEMEN
ЙОРДАНИЯ - JORDAN


----------



## Kpc21

It seems Russians also spell it Йемен – and... Иордания, interestingly with И (I) and not Й (J/Y).

So it's literally spelled Yyemyen and Iordaniya. But the pronunciation of the Russian Е also changes depending on the neighboring sounds, so while this is the most literal transliteration, the pronunciation of those words differs.

The Russian pronunciation is not very consistent, they also sometimes pronounce о as а. E.g. это (it's, this) is pronounced as "eta". Although those changes follow some rules, so it's possible to learn it quite easily.


----------



## aubergine72

Kpc21 said:


> The Russian pronunciation is not very consistent, they also sometimes pronounce о as а. E.g. это (it's, this) is pronounced as "eta". Although those changes follow some rules, so it's possible to learn it quite easily.


О becomes А when unstressed. It's quite consistent, actually.


----------



## PovilD

aubergine72 said:


> О becomes А when unstressed. It's quite consistent, actually.


Interestingly in (North)eastern Lithuania, where my family is from, people also tend to pronounce unstressed "o" as "a". Obuolys (apple) becomes something like "abelys" (last syllabale "lys" is stressed). I'm sometimes thinking they speak with slight Russian accent, just because of this feature (and sometimes they prolong the vowels in Belorussian/Russian way but not exactly their manner).

There are differences though. Russian accent and Eastern Lithuanian accents sound a little bit different, and create slightly different feel when pronounced. Personally I can distinguish which accent is used by a Russian from Vilnius, and which accent is used by Lithuanian living in Anykščiai, Zarasai or Utena.

Standard Lithuanian pronounce unstressed "o" as "o", and it lack common Russian pronunciation features.

Belarussians tend to avoid writing "a" as "o" and just write "a". I spotted on road signs that while Russians write "Moskva" (Moscow), Belorussians write "Maskva". In Lithuanian, Moscow is also "Maskva". In Standard Lithuanian, vowels of the name of the city are pronounced shorter than in Standard Russian.


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

Any Latin signs in Belarus?


----------



## Verso

I never thought they would write just "М*а*сква" in Belarus.


----------



## Corvinus

Nendeln, Liechtenstein










Only Feldkirch is a foreign city, but sign also shows "motorway in Switzerland".


----------



## PovilD

Swiss signage, Swiss motorway signs, not to mention Swiss motorway following most of Western Liechtenstein border


----------



## Zagor666

Hungary


----------



## Nimróad

They forget to put Valpó.
It is similar to Valkó(vár) (Vukovar) which was a county capital of Valkó by St. Stephen. :hmm:


----------



## PovilD

Hungarian language is such a strange case in Europe. You would expect Hungary and Romania to be predominantly Slavic or at least in Hungarian case, Indoeuropean, but they are not, you get Hungarian being completely different.


----------



## Adrian.02

PovilD said:


> Hungarian language is such a strange case in Europe. You would expect Hungary and Romania to be predominantly Slavic or at least in Hungarian case, Indoeuropean, but they are not, you get Hungarian being completely different.


Romanian and hungarian have slavic influences,because of the neighbouring countries.


----------



## PovilD

Adrian.02 said:


> Romanian and hungarian have slavic influences,because of the neighbouring countries.


As much as Baltic  Baltic even more, and to the levels that grammar is quite similar which have lead to Balto-Slavic theory. As for written text you wouldn't grasp Baltic being such Slavic, but when you know the language, it feels Slavic influence.


----------



## Nimróad

"Over the years, since its creation as a language, Hungarian has evolved and changed just like any other dialect. However, staying true to its ancient roots, Hungarian contains a whopping 68% of its etymons, or original words. Compare this with the 4% retained by the English language, or the 5% kept by Hebrew, and the scale is even more impressive. "

Maybe it's not so influenced as presumed.


----------



## Verso

Italians have put some relatively new signs around Tarvisio.

This one shows Villach, Klagenfurt, and Salzburg in Austria:








Google Zemljevidi


V Google Zemljevidih poiščite lokalna podjetja, si oglejte zemljevide in pridobite navodila za vožnjo.




goo.gl





And this one shows Bovec and Kobarid in Slovenia. Interestingly, Bovec is just in Slovenian (in Italian it's Plezzo), but Kobarid is just in Italian (Caporetto). I guess because it's better known with the Italian name because of the Battle of Caporetto in WWI (but they could write both names).








Google Zemljevidi


V Google Zemljevidih poiščite lokalna podjetja, si oglejte zemljevide in pridobite navodila za vožnjo.




goo.gl


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Italians have put some relatively new signs around Tarvisio.
> 
> This one shows Villach, Klagenfurt, and Salzburg in Austria:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Zemljevidi
> 
> 
> V Google Zemljevidih poiščite lokalna podjetja, si oglejte zemljevide in pridobite navodila za vožnjo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goo.gl


Interesting, in Italian Salzburg is always called Salisburgo.
I think it's the only sign to Salzburg in Italy. We usually don't use to signpost places far away, not even inside Italy.



Verso said:


> And this one shows Bovec and Kobarid in Slovenia. Interestingly, Bovec is just in Slovenian (in Italian it's Plezzo), but Kobarid is just in Italian (Caporetto). I guess because it's better known with the Italian name because of the Battle of Caporetto in WWI (but they could write both names).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Zemljevidi
> 
> 
> V Google Zemljevidih poiščite lokalna podjetja, si oglejte zemljevide in pridobite navodila za vožnjo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goo.gl


Nobody uses Plezzo, I think it's really obsolete. Kobarid, instead, it's better known with the Italian name Caporetto, because of the battle.


----------



## PovilD

italystf said:


> Interesting, in Italian Salzburg is always called Salisburgo.
> I think it's the only sign to Salzburg in Italy. We usually don't use to signpost places far away, not even inside Italy.


Munich would be even cooler  I like town signs for non-neighboring countries


----------



## italystf

PovilD said:


> Munich would be even cooler  I like town signs for non-neighboring countries


In Italy there are no signs pointing to anywhere in Germany. On the other hand, there's a sign to Verona in Germany, somewhere near the Austrian border (don't remember where). As said, in Italy long-distance signs aren't popular.
The only signs to non-neighboring countries are those pointing to Fiume/Rijeka(HR) in and around Trieste. I once even said a sign to Pola (w/o Pula, w/o HR oval, nostalgia?), but it isn't there anymore, usually just Capodistria/Koper(SLO) is signposted in that direction.


----------



## pascalwithvespa95

italystf said:


> In Italy there are no signs pointing to anywhere in Germany. On the other hand, there's a sign to Verona in Germany, somewhere near the Austrian border (don't remember where). As said, in Italy long-distance signs aren't popular.
> The only signs to non-neighboring countries are those pointing to Fiume/Rijeka(HR) in and around Trieste. I once even said a sign to Pola (w/o Pula, w/o HR oval, nostalgia?), but it isn't there anymore, usually just Capodistria/Koper(SLO) is signposted in that direction.


Pretty sure Munich is signed on A22! I don´t know exactly where though.


----------



## pascalwithvespa95

Found it:
Google Maps


----------



## PovilD

pascalwithvespa95 said:


> Found it:
> Google Maps


Cool! I wasn't even thinking if there any such non-neighboring country city signs actually exists 

What surprises me that is only 211 km, although I know Austria is narrow on that point. Due to cultural and climate differences between countries, I would thought that Italy and Germany are far away from each other although it shares borders with relatively small Austria.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Nobody uses Plezzo, I think it's really obsolete. Kobarid, instead, it's better known with the Italian name Caporetto, because of the battle.


But I bet most foreign visitors of Kobarid don't realize it's Caporetto (not even most Italians), especially those who are just in transit. Some of them haven't even heard of the battle.


----------



## Adrian.02

italystf said:


> In Italy there are no signs pointing to anywhere in Germany. On the other hand, there's a sign to Verona in Germany, somewhere near the Austrian border (don't remember where).


Verona is signed on tha Autobahn A8,at the intersection with the A93(leading to Innsbruck and Italy)


----------



## alserrod

italystf said:


> Interesting, in Italian Salzburg is always called Salisburgo.
> I think it's the only sign to Salzburg in Italy. We usually don't use to signpost places far away, not even inside Italy.
> 
> 
> Nobody uses Plezzo, I think it's really obsolete. Kobarid, instead, it's better known with the Italian name Caporetto, because of the battle.



Well, near Trieste it is easy to find Slovenian cities even Croatian (Fiume/Rijeka), not only the country name


----------



## MadMax87

italystf said:


> Interesting, in Italian Salzburg is always called Salisburgo.
> I think it's the only sign to Salzburg in Italy. We usually don't use to signpost places far away, not even inside Italy.
> 
> 
> Nobody uses Plezzo, I think it's really obsolete. Kobarid, instead, it's better known with the Italian name Caporetto, because of the battle.



Actually Plezzo is widely used in our school history books and in general in books dealing with WWI (conca di Plezzo, Chiusa di Plezzo, offensiva su Plezzo, ...) and, when there was a little earthquake in 2003 (if I remember correctly), many medias (both newespapers and newscasts) reported about a "terremoto a Plezzo, in Slovenia, non lontano da Tarvisio"... Regarding Salzburg I wonder why they didn't signposted also with its italian translation... 

Plus, in some italian maps after WWI was common to read Iesenizza/Iesenizze for Jesenice, Radice for Rateče, Monte Cragnisca for Kranjska Gora, etc..


----------



## alserrod

When A-14 was open since A-2 in Spain, "Toulouse" sign apppeared there.

There's a translation: "Tolosa" but as far as there's a Spanish town so called Tolosa too, I bet it is one city with translation but always referred to French language in Spain.


----------



## eeee.

PovilD said:


> I wasn't even thinking if there any such non-neighboring country city signs actually exists


There is a thread about it:
Road signs showing cities in non-neighbouring foreign...


----------



## SRC_100

Berlin and Prague on one road sign.
North-western Poland, the sign on the S3 / S6 road
Photo taken by @JacYk


JacYk said:


>


----------



## Corvinus

Found among my (few) road pics from Sweden: Oslo signposted along E4 motorway en route from Stockholm to Arlanda airport.

Exit 1500m ahead









900m ahead









Judging by the road number, these signs must be between Sollenturna and Upplands Väsby, just north of Stockholm.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I found this photo the other day. Atyrau (Kazakhstan) signed in Astrakhan (Russia). Also: E40


----------



## Corvinus

Rwandan capital Kigali signposted in neighbouring Burundi:










From this documentary.


----------



## 54°26′S 3°24′E

In Norway, control cities of major roads could often be quite far away, and hence there are plenty of Swedish, Finnish, Russian (Murmansk), and even (from ferry ports) Danish destinations on Norwegian signs. According to a count in 2001, there were in Oslo 47 signs to Drammen (N), 44 to Stockholm (S), 38 to Trondheim (N), and 29 to Gothenburg (S). In addition there were signs to e.g. Fredrikshavn (DK), Hirtshals (DK) and Kiel (D). At the time, some people of Bergen reacted to this as that city was not signposted at all inside Oslo, but the reason is that the start of E16, the official highway to Bergen, is outside Oslo. I believe the signs to the Oslo ferry terminals are now signed by shipping company name, and hence the signs to Denmark and Germany are no longer there.








*Signposts to Arkhangelsk and Murmansk in Finnmark at E6 / E105 junction. Arkhangelsk is more than 1800 km away by car.*








*Historic sign to Kiel in Oslo*








*Signs to Gothenburg and Stockholm in Oslo*








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




goo.gl




*Distance sign outside Trondheim including Sundsvall, Sweden. Soon to be historic due to road expansion.*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I can't find that Arkhangelsk sign on Street View. 

It doesn't make much sense, even St. Petersburg would make more sense than Arkhangelsk. It makes you think how big Russia is though, 1800 kilometers while still in the same general region.


----------



## 54°26′S 3°24′E

Yeah, I see there is a roundabout there now, so probably the Arkhangelsk sign was removed during construction of the new junction, which seems to have been part of a bigger upgrade in 2017:








Bridge and new highway linking Norway and Russia officially opens


“This is a bridge for mutual benefit for businesses in both Norway and Russia,” says Minister of Transport and Communication Ketil Solvik-Olsen.




thebarentsobserver.com




or in Russian...








Движение по новому мосту и трансграничной трассе между Норвегией и Россией официально открыто


Этот мост построен к обоюдной выгоде для бизнеса как в Норвегии, так и в России, сказал норвежский министр транспорта Хетил Сулвик-Ульсен.




thebarentsobserver.com














Arkhangelsk is significantly closer as the crow flies or by sea, the dominating mode of transport historically. There was significant trade between these parts of Norway and the Russian north coast before the 1917 revolution, stretching as far as Arkhangelsk (the so called Pomor trade).








There are no such cultural links to interior Russia or St. Petersburg, even though that city is closer by road today.


----------



## Nimróad

Probably the single one for TM in Hungarian Banat.


----------



## pascalwithvespa95

Nimróad said:


> Probably the single one for TM in Hungarian Banat.
> 
> View attachment 1463310


Sadly they removed the huge signs in Szeged with "Bukarest" and "Belgrad"


----------



## Adrian.02

pascalwithvespa95 said:


> Sadly they removed the huge signs in Szeged with "Bukarest" and "Belgrad"


Those were really cool, because they were retro, but, let's be fair, it's more logical to sign "Subotica/Szabadka" and "Arad" in Szeged because they are much closer😃.


----------



## Sponsor

New standard in Poland - polish exonym and foreign original in brackets








fot. @fliker


----------



## Reivajar

Not a bad alternative. You ensure legibility from both sides.


----------



## RipleyLV

Sponsor said:


> New standard in Poland - polish exonym and foreign original in brackets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fot. @fliker


Sad. I support the original language names on signs, at least in Europe. With Poland being one of those awesome countries to do so..


----------



## pascalwithvespa95

In my opinion it doesn´t even really matter, most people will understand both Praga and Praha.


----------



## Attus

pascalwithvespa95 said:


> In my opinion it doesn´t even really matter, most people will understand both Praga and Praha.


Yes, because they're very similar. But you can not have rules like "Don't write the original name if it's similar to the Polish one"


----------



## Adrian.02

pascalwithvespa95 said:


> In my opinion it doesn´t even really matter, most people will understand both Praga and Praha.


True!
But in Romania, we sadly use only the romanian-language exonyms(Viena for Vienna, Budapesta for Budapest, Belgrad for Belgrade, etc.).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It works fine on this simple distance sign with a short 5 letter name, but it becomes more complicated or cluttered if the name(s) are longer, the sign is located at a junction (overhead sign or fork sign) or if there are multiple foreign cities.


----------



## ufonut

S3 in Poland.

Photo by *JacYk*


----------



## pascalwithvespa95

Adrian.02 said:


> True!
> But in Romania, we sadly use only the romanian-language exonyms(Viena for Vienna, Budapesta for Budapest, Belgrad for Belgrade, etc.).


I wonder when they start signing Italy and Germany  Since they already have two signs for Vienna on A3 and DN1


----------



## kostas97

So in the A2 motorway in Poland they will have to change e.g. from "Terespol (PL) (BY)" to something like "Brest (_Brześć_ ) (BY)", the first city across the border or "Minsk (BY)", the major city of the continuing road in Belarus. The same goes for e.g. the A4 where they might consider to remove any indicaton to Korczowa and keep Lviv instead, and for e.g. the S22 where places like "Grzechotki" could become "Kaliningrad (RUS)"


----------



## Verso

Attus said:


> Yes, because they're very similar. But you can not have rules like "Don't write the original name if it's similar to the Polish one"


There is one such example in Slovenia. There are signs for Karlovac (HR) and there are signs for Karlov*e*c (the Slovenian name), but they are never on the same sign, I guess because they're too similar and too long (unlike short Reka/Rijeka or Pulj/Pula/Pola).


----------



## RipleyLV

pascalwithvespa95 said:


> In my opinion it doesn´t even really matter, most people will understand both Praga and Praha.


Depends on the language. For instance, I would not understand if Bécs is Wien or Pozsony is Bratislava in Hungary. Also, @ChrisZwolle made a nice point with longer names, then it becomes difficult to design the layout of the signs to include both names.

In Latvia we have a few really unnecessary names in both languages, where the difference is just one letter, mostly it's with Lithuanian names.  Like, for example, Klaip*ē*da (LV) / Klaip*ė*da (LT) here. Or my my favorite sign in Latvia.  Both names take space and the sign size does cost. In some areas it's just simply Klaipēda without the LT name and with an country index oval. So what's the point in making signs in two languages? If it does not apply as a standart everywhere in the signage system? Just keep the original name and save on trouble.


----------



## 54°26′S 3°24′E

Attus said:


> Yes, because they're very similar. But you can not have rules like "Don't write the original name if it's similar to the Polish one"


But we don't need a rule for anything ;-)


----------



## aswnl

RipleyLV said:


> Just keep the original name and save on trouble.


Only the endonym is the best. 
Second best is endonym, with exonym in brackets. However that means drivers need more time to read the sign, and the sign will be bigger than necessary.
After the border there will be a point where the endonym only is being displayed and the exonym not at all, so continuing the endonym farther away guarantees continuity. Above that signage is meant for people who are not known to the situation, of which a lot are foreigners. You can´t expect from foreigners that they know all the local exonyms of a city name.

So the new Polish system is still far from ideal. However it is far better than the old (just a little hamlet near the border that no international traveler knows).


----------



## Verso

RipleyLV said:


> Depends on the language. For instance, I would not understand if Bécs is Wien or Pozsony is Bratislava in Hungary. Also, @ChrisZwolle made a nice point with longer names, then it becomes difficult to design the layout of the signs to include both names.
> 
> In Latvia we have a few really unnecessary names in both languages, where the difference is just one letter, mostly it's with Lithuanian names.  Like, for example, Klaip*ē*da (LV) / Klaip*ė*da (LT) here. Or my my favorite sign in Latvia.  Both names take space and the sign size does cost. In some areas it's just simply Klaipēda without the LT name and with an country index oval. So what's the point in making signs in two languages? If it does not apply as a standart everywhere in the signage system? Just keep the original name and save on trouble.


Riga/Rīga, Istanbul/İstanbul :–P


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> There is one such example in Slovenia. There are signs for Karlovac (HR) and there are signs for Karlov*e*c (the Slovenian name), but they are never on the same sign, I guess because they're too similar and too long (unlike short Reka/Rijeka or Pulj/Pula/Pola).


It took me quite some time cruising along French A9 untill realizing that I was not heading to some French city Barcelone, but to true Barcelona


----------



## DeusLT

Examples of foreign cities/countries that I have found in the Iraqi road signs:

Amman, Jordan (HKJ) located at Trebil border crossing:









A blurry image of a sign that shows a city of Arar, located in Saudi Arabia (KSA):









Syria and Al Waleed (name of the border crossing):









Turkey when driving towards city of Zakho:


----------



## GROBIN

aswnl said:


> Only the endonym is the best.
> Second best is endonym, with exonym in brackets. However that means drivers need more time to read the sign, and the sign will be bigger than necessary.
> After the border there will be a point where the endonym only is being displayed and the exonym not at all, so continuing the endonym farther away guarantees continuity. Above that signage is meant for people who are not known to the situation, of which a lot are foreigners. You can´t expect from foreigners that they know all the local exonyms of a city name.
> 
> So the new Polish system is still far from ideal. However it is far better than the old (just a little hamlet near the border that no international traveler knows).


From my practice while driving around the world (and especially Europe), the best practice is endonym with exonym in brackets (much better than with slashes). Only exonym or only endonym is not sufficient. I understood that after having dealt:
1) With Polish people who did not understand that "Vilnius" is the Lithuanian version of "Wilno", or that "Lviv" is the Ukrainian name for "Lwów", or that "Warschau" and "Stettin" are the same as "Warszawa" and "Szczecin"
2) With Belgian people not understanding "Lüttich" means "Liège"
3) With Dutch people not sure if Arnheim and Arnhem are related to each other (unfortunately, Germany corrected it by completely erasing "Arnheim" and putting only "Arnhem"
4) With Czech people not sure if "Pilsen" is related to "Plzeň" (this one really surprised me, as I thought due to the local beer they'd know!  )
5) With Spanish people not understanding that "Saragosse" is the as "Zaragoza".
We sometimes tend to think everyone is as interested in exonyms/endonyms, in geography or history like I'm pretty confident we all are. But let's not forget a lot of people are NOT interested in such things. Hence, it's like when you teach something entirely new to someone: it must be as simple as possible.
6) With Latvian people not understanding "Riia" is the same as "Rīga"
7) With Russian people not understanding "Pleskava" or "Pihkva" means "Pskov"
8) With Belarusian people not understanding "Gardinas" is "Hrodna" (in the past, only endonyms were used here in Lithuania)
9) With French people not fully understanding "Hüningen" means "Huningue" in French.

There are also 3 other ways of signing I don't really like:
1) Signing a foreign city without any oval. It is less and less practiced in Europe, but for instance in Southeast Asia, if you drive from Kuala Lumpur to Singapore, you have the choice between Woodlands and Tuas. If I hadn't lived in Singapore over 20 years earlier, I wouldn't know what that is about.
2) Signing solely a province of a neighbor country: in Singapore, no matter if you go cross into Malaysia through the AYE (Tuas) or through the BKE (Woodlands), you will always see "Johor" signed. It would be much better to sign "Johor Bahru" and "Tanjung Kupang"
3) Signing a foreign country only. How many times you see "Espanha" in Portugal, or "Portugal", "Francia" in Spain! ... I will never forget one day I had a problem with my GPS, and I was driving out of Pamplona in Spain. I see: "Francia" on the left, and "Francia" on the right  It was here. I took the wrong "Francia", and I had to drive by night on the mountain roads between Pamplona and Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port...


----------



## alserrod

Saragosse is enough (and fine to be pointed in E-07 indeed). According to that weird Spanish rule to point next province capital... in France main direction is Saragosse and in Spain is Huesca (till near Huesca where Zaragoza will appear)

I strongly agree with you about pointing countries. May you are in Andorra.... it's fine (there are only two border passes, one with Spain, one with France, hence no doubt).
Anyway, bonus, France via Portalet pass or via Somport pass. You may know quite well Pyrenees to decide the best pass (even GPS is not so good in these situations, Portalet is shorter but worst road)









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


----------



## Corvinus

GROBIN said:


> 3) Signing a foreign country only. How many times you see "Espanha" in Portugal, or "Portugal", "Francia" in Spain! ... I will never forget one day I had a problem with my GPS, and I was driving out of Pamplona in Spain. I see: "Francia" on the left, and "Francia" on the right  It was here. I took the wrong "Francia", and I had to drive by night on the mountain roads between Pamplona and Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port...


Fully agree to that - except in case of signs right by the border for connections leading to that country, with no sizeable settlement right across. A good example from Switzerland: Rheinfelden-West exit of A3 motorway, as this exit leads right up to the border to continue as the German A861.









(streetview screenshot from here)

"Lörrach" instead of "Deutschland" would not be a good fit on the sign, as it is to the west, while one could also head for the north or the east after crossing the border.


----------



## MattiG

GROBIN said:


> From my practice while driving around the world (and especially Europe), the best practice is endonym with exonym in brackets (much better than with slashes). Only exonym or only endonym is not sufficient.


How far would you like to extend the support of exonyms? Something like this?










IMHO, the traffic signs is not the most fruitful means to learn geography. Especially in traveling in Europe, everyone shall understand that most bigger cities have several exonyms in several languages. All of those cannot be visible in the signs.

What is the distance from Aachen to Aix-la-Chapelle via Aken, Aquisgrana and Akwizgran?


----------



## Attus

I'm not sure whether local exonyms are needed at all. 
For example, you're German and want to drive to Liège. If you don't know the French name, you follow the "Lüttich" signs in Germany, then you cross the border to Belgium ... and you're lost. No "Lüttich" any more. Without knowing the French endonym, you have no chance to find that town. OK, nowadays many people use some electronical navigation, but for them no signs are needed at all. 
It may make a sense for locations directly at the border, especially in secondary roads with local and regional traffic. But in this regions the endonym is usually well known even for people who don't speak that language. I'm sure everyone in Eastern Vallonie know Aix-la-Chapelle is called Aachen in German, and don't need the French exonym on the signs. 

So apart from regarding national, cultural ideas like "It's unacceptable not to use the name in our language" it does not make many sense to use it.


----------



## MattiG

Attus said:


> I'm not sure whether local exonyms are needed at all.
> For example, you're German and want to drive to Liège. If you don't know the French name, you follow the "Lüttich" signs in Germany, then you cross the border to Belgium ... and you're lost. No "Lüttich" any more. Without knowing the French endonym, you have no chance to find that town. OK, nowadays many people use some electronical navigation, but for them no signs are needed at all.
> It may make a sense for locations directly at the border, especially in secondary roads with local and regional traffic. But in this regions the endonym is usually well known even for people who don't speak that language. I'm sure everyone in Eastern Vallonie know Aix-la-Chapelle is called Aachen in German, and don't need the French exonym on the signs.
> 
> So apart from regarding national, cultural ideas like "It's unacceptable not to use the name in our language" it does not make many sense to use it.


The Liège/Luik/Lüttich problematic is an example of local politics, and it usually the strongest driver. It is a contradiction that the local people do not need signs at all, but in bi/multilingual area their language depends on what the local language majority is. 

The same applies in Finland, even if not as fanatic as in Belgium. The signs show the destination name(s) by the location of the signs, not by the language of the destination. For instance, the signage on the coastal route 8 is Finnish/Swedish the Finnish then Swedish/Finnish then Finnish/Swedish then Swedish/Finnish then Finnish.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Netherlands switched to endonyms (Liège, Köln, Aachen). I've never read about complaints that it wasn't 'Luik, Keulen or Aken'. 

Germany has also switched to endonyms, replacing Arnheim and Nimwegen with Arnhem and Nijmegen.


----------



## Attus

MattiG said:


> The Liège/Luik/Lüttich problematic is an example of local politics


Yes, it may be important politically. Just like in Hungary, where quite many destinations in the neigboring countries belonged to Hungary before 1920, and their Hungarian exonyms used to be endonyms before 1920. It's politically not acceptable to write Oradea or Košice, but no Nagyvárad and Kassa. But these are important culturally, politically, and not for traffic information. (OK, Oradea is directly at the border, if you cross the border at Ártánd, you have no chance not to get to Oradea ;-)).


----------



## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Netherlands switched to endonyms (Liège, Köln, Aachen). I've never read about complaints that it wasn't 'Luik, Keulen or Aken'.
> 
> Germany has also switched to endonyms, replacing Arnheim and Nimwegen with Arnhem and Nijmegen.


Finland has about 20 permanent road border crossing points only, and there seems to be no reason to create a policy for names. Every alternative seem to exist as the destination: endonyme, exonyme, both of them, country name, and the name of the border station.

As there are bilingual areas, and bilingual signs are familiar to anyone, nobody is furious about putting both endonyme and exonyme into the sign, like Pietari/St Petersburg here:


----------



## Sponsor

There is another issue - the alphabet. Transliteration or original?










GROBIN said:


> From my practice while driving around the world (and especially Europe), the best practice is endonym with exonym in brackets (much better than with slashes).


Another way is some colour indication like they differentiate names in two alphabets in Greece










GROBIN said:


> Only exonym or only endonym is not sufficient.


It depends. Names inside one language family are minor problem I guess, especially when they stick to latin alphabet.

Bratislava - Bratysława
Žilina - Żylina
Ružomberok - Rużomberk (although I know it better by Slovak name)
Prešov - Preszów
Praha - Praga
Ostrava - Ostrawa
Český Těšín - Czeski Cieszyn

If you add (CZ) and (SK) ovals there's literally no need for polish exonym.

Things get more complicated across language families, but still I believe that putting oval would do it. Vilnius itself might be mysterius but Vilinius (LT) is more than enough to connect it with Wilno for most Poles. Especially when posted in north-east part of the country or a road leading in that direction.


----------



## alserrod

In Spain all cities are just signed in their official names in national roads depending of ministry. It doesn't matter where the sign is located, it will point official name (it gives several chat pages in Spanish forums).

In the case of Basque country there are just three cities with bilingual names "Vitoria-Gasteiz", "Arrasate-Mondragon" and "Donostia-San Sebastian".
Providing all Basque roads belong to Basque government, you will see only "Vitoria-Gasteiz" bilingual in a national road or motorway

Otherwise...
Baiona (instead of Bayonne in French or Bayona in Spanish) besides the border








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com




Hint... in France some signs are bilingual in that area, so Bayonne/Baiona.

Perpignan will appear in Catalan most of times.

With these examples it is just weird towns and cites like Toulouse, St. Jean Pied de Port and so on with a clear translation name remain in French.


----------



## pascalwithvespa95

From Catalonia I remember Perpinyá, Montpeller and França/ Francia.


----------



## alserrod

Regarding Andorra

Coming from Spain:

Always "Andorra", pointing the border. May you wanna go to the capital, Andorra la Vella (Andorra, the old), just add 10 km more to distances.

Coming from France, they can point "Pas de la Case" (official name Pas de la Casa), located just in the border (so much in the border, all buildings in any picture are in Andorra but parking is mainly in France) or/and "Andorre la V" (Andorre la Vieille), also in French.

Obviously there's no problem in a country with, mainly, a main road from Pas de la Casa (border with France) to Sant Julia de Loria (border with Spain), an Y in the capital to approach some other valleys and few other roads... but strongly weird in both sides


----------



## italystf

Attus said:


> Yes, it may be important politically. Just like in Hungary, where quite many destinations in the neigboring countries belonged to Hungary before 1920, and their Hungarian exonyms used to be endonyms before 1920. It's politically not acceptable to write Oradea or Košice, but no Nagyvárad and Kassa. But these are important culturally, politically, and not for traffic information. (OK, Oradea is directly at the border, if you cross the border at Ártánd, you have no chance not to get to Oradea ;-)).


That's the same in Italy with our former territories of Venezia Giulia lost after WWII. There's plenty of signs near Trieste pointing to Capodistria/Koper (SLO) and Fiume/Rijeka (HR). Those cities are written with both names.


----------



## Reivajar

alserrod said:


> In Spain all cities are just signed in their official names in national roads depending of ministry. It doesn't matter where the sign is located, it will point official name (it gives several chat pages in Spanish forums).
> 
> In the case of Basque country there are just three cities with bilingual names "Vitoria-Gasteiz", "Arrasate-Mondragon" and "Donostia-San Sebastian".
> Providing all Basque roads belong to Basque government, you will see only "Vitoria-Gasteiz" bilingual in a national road or motorway
> 
> Otherwise...
> Baiona (instead of Bayonne in French or Bayona in Spanish) besides the border
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hint... in France some signs are bilingual in that area, so Bayonne/Baiona.
> 
> Perpignan will appear in Catalan most of times.
> 
> With these examples it is just weird towns and cites like Toulouse, St. Jean Pied de Port and so on with a clear translation name remain in French.


New signs were installed several years ago using Perpignan (the French endonym).



















However, still many Francia/França remains.

However, my favorite one ever is the Italian Confine di Stato


----------



## alserrod

In the case of Rijeka I remember

In Italy, Fiume/Rijeka
In Slovenia Reka
In Croatia Rijeka except in Istria where Rijeka/Fiume

And.... I preferred to say "Tarsatica" (Latin name), easy to pronounce for me

BTW, how many big/medium cities have "river" or so as its name?


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## alserrod

Reivajar said:


> New signs were installed several years ago using Perpignan (the French endonym).
> 
> View attachment 1499525
> 
> 
> View attachment 1499544
> 
> 
> However, still many Francia/França remains.
> 
> However, my favorite one ever is the Italian Confine di Stato




And Toulouse in Lleida









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


----------



## Nimróad

RipleyLV said:


> Depends on the language. For instance, I would not understand if Bécs is Wien or Pozsony is Bratislava in Hungary. Also, @ChrisZwolle made a nice point with longer names, then it becomes difficult to design the layout of the signs to include both names.
> 
> In Latvia we have a few really unnecessary names in both languages, where the difference is just one letter, mostly it's with Lithuanian names.  Like, for example, Klaip*ē*da (LV) / Klaip*ė*da (LT) here. Or my my favorite sign in Latvia.  Both names take space and the sign size does cost. In some areas it's just simply Klaipēda without the LT name and with an country index oval. So what's the point in making signs in two languages? If it does not apply as a standart everywhere in the signage system? Just keep the original name and save on trouble.


Arad is not written Arad-Arad just Arad.


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## Nimróad

MattiG said:


> How far would you like to extend the support of exonyms? Something like this?
> 
> View attachment 1488608
> 
> 
> IMHO, the traffic signs is not the most fruitful means to learn geography. Especially in traveling in Europe, everyone shall understand that most bigger cities have several exonyms in several languages. All of those cannot be visible in the signs.
> 
> What is the distance from Aachen to Aix-la-Chapelle via Aken, Aquisgrana and Akwizgran?


Where is *Istókhalma*? Damn it!
Also *KoppenHága*. We use *Hága* for Den Haag.


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## Verso

Nimróad said:


> Also *KoppenHága*.


I've just looked up Copenhagen in the official Slovenian dictionary/orthography/whatever and I'm surprised it's neither Kopenhagen like I call it (although it's listed as an alternative) nor København. Instead it says Köbenhavn, although "ö" is not even a Slovenian letter (it's better known here than "ø" though). The Slovenian Wikipedia calls it København.


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## Nimróad

Vend uses ö+ü. And Vendish New Testament written first in Hungarian phonetic also "Szlovenszka Krajina". Since Vend = Slovenian it could be easily understandable to adopt it. 
I live near them


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## Verso

^^ What you call Vend (we call it prekmurščina) is a peripheral Slovenian dialect, "ö" is better known here from German. We can't adobt "ö" just because of Prekmurje.


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## Nimróad

Do Slovenians think it is offensive toward their language (Germanisation?).


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## Verso

It would be quite an outsider letter, because we simply don't need it, we never make that sound, if we don't count names (except Prekmurians). Besides, we could also write 'Koebenhavn', we have all those letters.


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## 54°26′S 3°24′E

Historically, "ø" is assumed to originate from a merger of "o" and "e", so Koebenhavn should be OK, as long as it not pronounced as a diphtong or two letters. Note though, that although the sound is similar, the letter "ø" is not an umlaut like the German "ö", but considered a separate letter of the alphabet. So, if you substitute "ø" with "ö", you should associate the letter with Swedish, where "ö" is a separate letter as well.


----------



## alserrod

View in a Spanish thread!!

This stretch (in Portugal besides border) is to be open soon












Location, here








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





It says... ahead, Spain, Ciudad Rodrigo (it doesn't say anything about any hub)
right, Spain, Fuentes de Oñoro (boundary town)

even for Vilar Formoso-east, it would be better to entry into Spain and back again.

BTW, border in google is accurate, border will be in the middle of exit lanes


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## Reivajar

Using Ciudad Rodrigo as the destination towards Spain is just... weird... Salamanca makes more sense. Who knows...


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## alserrod

I agree

In Spain it is pointed as "Ciudad Rodrigo xx / SALAMANCA XX"


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## Verso

54°26′S 3°24′E said:


> Historically, "ø" is assumed to originate from a merger of "o" and "e", so Koebenhavn should be OK, as long as it not pronounced as a diphtong or two letters. Note though, that although the sound is similar, the letter "ø" is not an umlaut like the German "ö", but considered a separate letter of the alphabet. So, if you substitute "ø" with "ö", you should associate the letter with Swedish, where "ö" is a separate letter as well.


I've searched the internet a bit and apparently "Köbenhavn" is a mistake in the 2001 edition (that I have), which was corrected in the 2003 edition. 🤦‍♂️ But – ironically – there is "ø" on the last page of the dictionary!? I didn't know our alphabet ended with "... t u v z ž ø".


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## sbondorf

54°26′S 3°24′E said:


> Note though, that although the sound is similar, the letter "ø" is not an umlaut like the German "ö", but considered a separate letter of the alphabet. So, if you substitute "ø" with "ö", you should associate the letter with Swedish, where "ö" is a separate letter as well.


Historically, the use of ö instead of, or parallel to, ø has had its supporters in Denmark too.
The official mapmakers of Geodætisk Institut still used it not so many years ago - the map in the photo is from 1974.


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## SevenSlavicTribes

MattiG said:


> How far would you like to extend the support of exonyms? Something like this?
> 
> View attachment 1488608
> 
> 
> IMHO, the traffic signs is not the most fruitful means to learn geography. Especially in traveling in Europe, everyone shall understand that most bigger cities have several exonyms in several languages. All of those cannot be visible in the signs.
> 
> What is the distance from Aachen to Aix-la-Chapelle via Aken, Aquisgrana and Akwizgran?












ГЬОТЕБОРГ - E6
КОПЕНХАГЕН - E20
СТОКХОЛМ - E4

Γκέτεμποργκ - E6
Κοπεγχάγη - E20
Στοκχόλμη - E4


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## MattiG

SevenSlavicTribes said:


> ГЬОТЕБОРГ - E6
> КОПЕНХАГЕН - E20
> СТОКХОЛМ - E4
> 
> Γκέτεμποργκ - E6
> Κοπεγχάγη - E20
> Στοκχόλμη - E4


This was about traffic signs, not about cryptography.


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## Verso

Not a foreign city, but two foreign countries... on a quadrilingual sign in Italy! Italian, Friulian, German, Slovenian.










https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Quadrilingual_traffic_sign.jpg


(That A4 sticker is of course wrong, because it's nowhere near and it's in the other direction. It should be SS54 in both directions.)


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## alserrod

I think, an oval would be easier


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## hkskyline

20220512_Hagerty-1354 by Tom Hagerty, on Flickr


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## MadMax87

Verso said:


> Not a foreign city, but two foreign countries... on a quadrilingual sign in Italy! Italian, Friulian, German, Slovenian.
> View attachment 3236813
> 
> 
> 
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Quadrilingual_traffic_sign.jpg
> 
> 
> (That A4 sticker is of course wrong, because it's nowhere near and it's in the other direction. It should be SS54 in both directions.)



just outside Tarvisio going to Fusine there's a road sign showing Kranjska Gora, Jesenice and Lubiana wrong-spelled while going to Austria another one with Villach, Klagenfurt (!) and Salzburg (!)


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## Verso

^^ I know, it's a bit funny to see Salzburg signed on that narrow road.


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## MadMax87

Verso said:


> ^^ I know, it's a bit funny to see Salzburg signed on that narrow road.



what about coming from Slovenia? they just sign 'Italy' or they also refer to Tarvisio? strett view on the slovenian side still dates back to 2013...


----------



## Verso

^^ Signs are still the same and they refer to Tarvisio. For example:








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




maps.app.goo.gl












Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




maps.app.goo.gl












Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




maps.app.goo.gl


----------



## Corvinus

Swiss A16 "Transjurane" motorway. French A36 displayed along with the city name, although the two motorways are not directly connected:


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## italystf

Stickers with "Slovenia" over road signs originally pointing to Yugoslavia near Trieste.
Pictures from present day, not from 1993.
And SS58 became SR58 in 2008, but who bothers?


----------



## Verso

Why was Yugoslavia written in English?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Brussels is officially bilingual, so both Brussel and Bruxelles are correct. In reality, French is spoken far more widely in the city. 

But the city is signed as Brussel in Flanders, so it doesn't make sense to use Bruxelles in the Netherlands as any route to the city goes through Flanders first.


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## General Maximus

Brussels is officially both a French and Dutch speaking city. Although with NL's good reputation as using exonyms, it would have suited them to use Bruxelles as well. But they never use more than one language on a sign. Not even in the province of Friesland. Frisian is also an official language, yet on road signs it's in either Dutch and some villages in Frisian only. Only entry signs are displayed in both languages.


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## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Brussels is officially bilingual, so both Brussel and Bruxelles are correct. In reality, French is spoken far more widely in the city.
> 
> But the city is signed as Brussel in Flanders, so it doesn't make sense to use Bruxelles in the Netherlands as any route to the city goes through Flanders first.


Off topic: only every fourth people in Brussels have a Belgian origin (both parents born as Belgian citizens), and about 60% of the population was him/herself born outside of Belgium. And the vast majority of immigrants and foreign EU employees speak no Dutch, only French, or non of this languages at all.Immigration influences language usage heavily and actually French is the dominnt language nowadays.


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## MattiG

Attus said:


> You see at first sight, that the Dutch don't use the ovals, nothing inplies that 5 of 7 signposted towns are not in the Netherlands.
> Interesting is the usage of endo- and exonyms. In the Netherlands only exonyms, even Liège is French - a few kilometers later, in the home country of this town, you'll only see Luik.


Every country has their own policy on ovals as well as on endonyms and exonyms. Often, they are topics of internal politics, and the policies do not always fully follow logic.

Denmark, Sweden, Finland, and Norway do not use ovals. The exceptions are some roads to Russia in the northern Finland, but not all of them.




























Road 92 westbound. The destination Kaarasjoki/Karasjok in Finnish and in Norwegian:










Road 92 eastbound. The destination Kirkkoniemi/Kirkenes in Finnish only:










(There are several Sami language variants, having a different orthography. The road 92 at the east end, the Sami name of Sevettijärvi spelled in a different way):










The various orthographies make some trouble. The spelling might be inconsistent even at the same crossing. Karasjok, Norway:


----------



## Palance

General Maximus said:


> Autobahnkreuz Aachen:
> 
> View attachment 4364822


From here Antwerpen can be considered as a city in a non-neighbouring country since the route to Antwerpen goes through the Netherlands first. The route to Liège and Brussels will lead you directly to Belgium, but Antwerpen does not.


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## General Maximus

Palance said:


> From here Antwerpen can be considered as a city in a non-neighbouring country since the route to Antwerpen goes through the Netherlands first. The route to Liège and Brussels will lead you directly to Belgium, but Antwerpen does not.


Same goes for the opposite direction at Antwerp where Aken (Aachen) is displayed.


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## Džiugas

General Maximus said:


> Autobahnkreuz Aachen:


Why it's not Lüttich?


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## General Maximus

Džiugas said:


> Why it's not Lüttich?


In western Germany they appear to have started to signpost cities in original languages (exonyms). Arnheim has become Arnhem, Nimwegen has become Nijmegen. They even changed Straßburg and Luxemburg to Strasbourg and Luxembourg.

On the eastern borders they still use both languages (Prag / Praha).


----------



## italystf

Attus said:


> Off topic: only every fourth people in Brussels have a Belgian origin (both parents born as Belgian citizens), and about 60% of the population was him/herself born outside of Belgium. And the vast majority of immigrants and foreign EU employees speak no Dutch, only French, or non of this languages at all.Immigration influences language usage heavily and actually French is the dominnt language nowadays.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francization_of_Brussels


----------



## PovilD

MattiG said:


> Every country has their own policy on ovals as well as on endonyms and exonyms. Often, they are topics of internal politics, and the policies do not always fully follow logic.
> 
> Denmark, Sweden, Finland, and Norway do not use ovals. The exceptions are some roads to Russia in the northern Finland, but not all of them.
> 
> View attachment 4366666
> 
> 
> View attachment 4366772
> 
> 
> View attachment 4366799
> 
> 
> Road 92 westbound. The destination Kaarasjoki/Karasjok in Finnish and in Norwegian:
> 
> View attachment 4366895
> 
> 
> Road 92 eastbound. The destination Kirkkoniemi/Kirkenes in Finnish only:
> 
> View attachment 4366919
> 
> 
> (There are several Sami language variants, having a different orthography. The road 92 at the east end, the Sami name of Sevettijärvi spelled in a different way):
> 
> View attachment 4366951
> 
> 
> The various orthographies make some trouble. The spelling might be inconsistent even at the same crossing. Karasjok, Norway:
> 
> View attachment 4366978
> 
> 
> View attachment 4367005


As for Russian cities in Finnish signs.
Murmansk is pretty much well known city in the region, while smaller ones are a bit unknown, so ovals are good.


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## MattiG

PovilD said:


> As for Russian cities in Finnish signs.
> Murmansk is pretty much well known city in the region, while smaller ones are a bit unknown, so ovals are good.


Such a policy does not exist. The ovals are there quite in a random way. They are not extremely useful: Crossing the border to Russia implies a lot of rules and bureaucracy, and finding the way to the border station is a minimal exercise. There are not random travelers. There are eight permanent and two temporary border stations, and three of those are somewhat marked by ovals.


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## Džiugas

Some Latvian signs pointing to Lithuanian cities:

A11, Liepaja, LV. Somehow they used acute instead of dot for Lithuanian name of Klaipėda:










P114, Priekule, LV. Both Skuodas and Lithuanian border mentioned:









P105, Ezere, LV. Fairly common in Latvia:










A5, Olaines novads, LV. No ovals for Tallinn and Šiauliai.









Same here, but with Kaunas instead of Šiauliai:









Skaistkalne, LV









P73, Akniste, LV









P70, Augšdaugavas novads, LV. Particularly interesting sign because it shows *Lithuanian *national road number 122:









P70, Svente, LV









A14, Augšdauguvas novads, LV


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## Džiugas

And some more Lithuanian cities on Belarusian signs!

M11, Beniakoni










M11, Voranava









M11, Hrodna Voblasc


















M6, Minsk Voblasc









P52, Hrodna Voblasc










Hrodna. Unlike for Vilnius, traditional Slavic name of Druskininkai is used


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## italystf

MattiG said:


> Such a policy does not exist. The ovals are there quite in a random way. They are not extremely useful: Crossing the border to Russia implies a lot of rules and bureaucracy, and finding the way to the border station is a minimal exercise. There are not random travelers. There are eight permanent and two temporary border stations, and three of those are somewhat marked by ovals.


In which sense termporary border crossings? Ice roads?


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## Džiugas

italystf said:


> In which sense termporary border crossings? Ice roads?


Maybe working on certain holidays of the year, like some checkpoints on LT/BY border.


----------



## MattiG

italystf said:


> In which sense termporary border crossings? Ice roads?


For timber transport and other seasonal traffic. Now, it is a permanent off-season for well-known reasons.


----------



## PovilD

Džiugas said:


> And some more Lithuanian cities on Belarusian signs!
> 
> M11, Beniakoni
> 
> View attachment 4373838
> 
> 
> M11, Voranava
> View attachment 4373841
> 
> 
> M11, Hrodna Voblasc
> View attachment 4373851
> 
> 
> View attachment 4373858
> 
> 
> M6, Minsk Voblasc
> View attachment 4373864
> 
> 
> P52, Hrodna Voblasc
> 
> View attachment 4373877
> 
> 
> Hrodna. Unlike for Vilnius, traditional Slavic name of Druskininkai is used
> View attachment 4373889


BY signage is fairly good in comparison of what you can expect. I like Chevron arrows and there are even signs with lane indication. Wishing the best for the country after all.



Džiugas said:


> Maybe working on certain holidays of the year, like some checkpoints on LT/BY border.


LT/BY border is the newest one afaik, hard border only from 199x, many people have relatives on the each side of the border. There is a reason for seasonal border crossings (e.g. Lithuanians visting relatives graves in BY side).


----------



## General Maximus

I hear that if there's one thing that Belarus stands out from, it's their general infrastructure including high quality of roads. Can anyone confirm this?


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## PovilD

General Maximus said:


> I hear that if there's one thing that Belarus stands out from, it's their general infrastructure including high quality of roads. Can anyone confirm this?


Yes, I remember seeing pics from Grodno from early 2010s, and it looked better than EU city of Kaunas. I was reading comments, 50 years for Kaunas to reach Grodno. What times. Today it's probably tied, in some aspects Kaunas improved a lot in those years, downside it's mostly what will future will bring as mayor's and its team relation to Vičiūnai bussiness too Russia related (factory in Sovetsk, Kaliningrad Oblast is still running as of writing this). Some more sanctions can blow things up here too.
Until relatively recently, I would say Lukashenko was not some freak Eastern dictator but actually relatively admired in people of more rural and poorer backgrounds, since neoliberal competitiveness felt as too harsh reality for them.


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## General Maximus

Okay, well this is not really the place to go political, I just requested a confirmation about the good infrastructure and high quality of roads in Belarus. And I think I just got one, thank you.


----------

