# Do Immigrants Make Cities Safer?



## Narcisse (Aug 15, 2006)

"Just because Denmark is incapable of integrating its immigrants does not necessarily mean all parts of the world are."

More often than not, most parts of the world are incapable of integrating its immigrants. Places that come to mind that I have recently traveled to are Kenya, Jordan, Indonesia, Dominican Republic, which all have a lot of tension about immigrants. So it is an issue all over the world. I am from Brazil which integrates people almost like in the USA but not every country is meant to be or should be a melting pot since a oneworld monoculture does not seem very appealing. besides a lot of people don't want to integrate.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

Indonesia has a mixed record, you can't say a nation of 388 ethnic groups- many of disparate cultures arguing out autonomy and even independence movements - hasnt had its successes through the decades of nationhood despite the failures.
There was of course East Timor and Aceh now 'resolved', and currently similar movements in Papua and Sulawesi, and the infamous anti-Chinese riots of the 1990s - but the media doesnt show the other side of the story - how 380 ethnic groups are still integrated and peacefully cohabiting.


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

Mr_Denmark said:


> In Denmark immigrants commit some 260% more crime than average, Danes who stands for some 90%...
> 
> So to answer the title's question: No they do not!


But it's not the immigrants' (as a group) fault.
Immigration could very well have made Denmark a safer country if the politics towards immigration would be different. Just like in Sweden and many other European countries.

If immigrants stands for most of the crimes in Denmark, then it's Denmark's own fault for not integrating them into the society properly, just like DonQui said.


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## Narcisse (Aug 15, 2006)

"But it's not the immigrants' (as a group) fault. Immigration could very well have made Denmark a safer country if the politics towards immigration would be different. Just like in Sweden and many other European countries. If immigrants stands for most of the crimes in Denmark, then it's Denmark's own fault for not integrating them into the society properly, just like DonQui said."

The notion that politics can really influence such things sounds hopelessly idealistic. Can you give an example of a place that has had success through politics? "Sweden and many other European countries" all have major problems with their immigrant populations.


Splifffair, I agree with this: "but the media doesnt show the other side of the story " Indonesia has had its successes too. But ask most chinese how comfortable they are in the country.


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

staff said:


> If immigrants stands for most of the crimes in Denmark, then it's Denmark's own fault for not integrating them into the society properly, just like DonQui said.


*What?*

Comming from Malmø you know just as much as me how some of the young second generation muslims act and what some of them they do... so is that Sweden's fault they do stuff like that?


No countries in the world spends as much on intergration as the Scandinavian nations, yet we end up with the same problems as anyones else with large concentrated muslim populations...

The crime levels has nothing to do with funding, spending or immigration, it has to do with moral values and upbringing...



You can't "force immigrate" people - if they don't want to there's nothing you can do...


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

^^
Do you mean that muslim people in general commit more crimes than other people?

Malmö has a lot of problem with high crime rates, especially crimes commited by young kids with foreign background.
I'm simply saying that I don't believe the reason why they commit crimes is because they look a certain way or come from a certain region of the world (say, the Middle East). 
I'm saying it's related to segregation, which is a big problem in Malmö (and Stockholm and Copenhagen etc.). 

I quote:
"*The crime levels has nothing to do with* funding, spending or *immigration*"

If the crime levels has nothing to do with immigration, why did you then say further back in the thread that immigration makes cities more unsafe?


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## Narcisse (Aug 15, 2006)

Mr_Denmark, you are right. This is a question of cultural values. Many european countries are inviting their own undoing by being so arrogant as to think that they can just invite anybody in and maintain their own identity. my family left an oppressive country a while ago (not brazil!) and we did not try to force our culture on ourf new hosts but that's how many think. 

but i guess some are prepared to give up their country like when Jens Orback, Democracy Minister in the Swedish government, said during a radio debate: "We must be open and tolerant towards Islam and Muslims because when we become a minority, they will be so towards us."


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## Reaperos (Nov 18, 2006)

In a utopian world everyone is equal. All Immigrants are good and people and cities are good and beautiful. 

Unfortunately in reality, certain immigrants from specific countries are detrimental not positive to the country in which they illegally travel to. Be it due to the crime they produce and create or simply the services they use whilst giving little in return.


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## futureproof (Nov 2, 2006)

well, actually crime is always related to inmigrants, specially, with those who emigrate from their countries in despair.

when americans let italians, greeks and more settle into the united states, they created several mafias and crime in major cities such as new york, chicago etc.

but let´s not put all the inmigrants in the same category, america should follow australia´s inmigration board, which only allows skilled migrants to work and settle in their country. 

most mexicans that enter the united states, are people with no culture and unwilling to adapt to the american style of life, they are also the target of discriminization and in their country they were raised completly as anti-americans, they hate american culture etc.

just listen to most mexican rock bands, bashing, insulting etc. at americans, like one band that it´s called molotov, very popular over there in mexico.

in fact, many people complaint about the jobs they are given in the united states, claiming they´re not human, but they don´t seem to remember their previous works in their native countries and the reason they emigrated for.

so if you add up all these fact i gave you, you have many people resented, full of hatred and antisocial, whom, will not adapt to the country´s way of life, therefore, you´ll have youth gangs committing crimes in every city.

not to forget, also, that there are many migrants that are willing to switch their previous lifestyles and become normal american citizens, working on decent jobs, obbeying the rules and getting to love the united states.


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

staff said:


> Do you mean that muslim people in general commit more crimes than other people?


In Denmark yes... ( pretty sure it goes for most of Europe... )



staff said:


> I quote:
> "*The crime levels has nothing to do with* funding, spending or *immigration*"
> 
> If the crime levels has nothing to do with immigration, why did you then say further back in the thread that immigration makes cities more unsafe?


Sorry bad translation from my part...

"Goverment immigration" aka the spending of money to cultural projects and funding of other "immigrations fremmende" ( English: "immigration forwarding" ??? ) projects...


Basicly what I'm ment was that so far none of the many projects to "fremme intergrationen" ( Ehmm... "to better the immigration" ?? )have had any real impacts on the crime levels...

So far the only thing that worked in Denmark was the new "hard line" the police started a few years back... 


Yet it's still gotten to a point where a Danish city ( Slagelse ) have a "youth curfew" now hno: and families are kicked out of their rented homes in Århus, if their kids commit crime on the renters property...


There's no doubt it's a small minority who ruins it for the others - the problem however is that that small group commits a lot more shit than the rest - hence the statistics and national distrust...


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## Dominican2dacore (Feb 4, 2006)

futureproof said:


> well, actually crime is always related to inmigrants, specially, with those who emigrate from their countries in despair.
> 
> when americans let italians, greeks and more settle into the united states, they created several mafias and crime in major cities such as new york, chicago etc.
> 
> ...


Most idiotic post I've seen so far. If mexicans lack culture then i would like to know what your defintion of culture is because Mexico is and if not is one of the most cultural countries in the west hemisphere.


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## Dominican2dacore (Feb 4, 2006)

Narcisse said:


> "Just because Denmark is incapable of integrating its immigrants does not necessarily mean all parts of the world are."
> 
> More often than not, most parts of the world are incapable of integrating its immigrants. Places that come to mind that I have recently traveled to are Kenya, Jordan, Indonesia, *Dominican Republic*, which all have a lot of tension about immigrants. So it is an issue all over the world. I am from Brazil which integrates people almost like in the USA but not every country is meant to be or should be a melting pot since a oneworld monoculture does not seem very appealing. besides a lot of people don't want to integrate.


The issue with the domican republic is that most immgrants tend to come from one source country, which is Haiti. And the problem is that in reality DR cant support these people. Dr is poor as it is, yes its alot more devloped then Haiti but it can barely handle its own people. If DR were a developed nation then it would be another situation but the only reason Haitians are targeted is because they take the little jobs there are in the domincan market and work for practically nothing. Any country such as DR that has over a 20% poverty level shouldn't even be considering taking in immigrants. DR does as much as it can. In reality dominicans and hatians get along fine.


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## polako (Apr 7, 2005)

Let me ask this: Does an Asian immigrant moving into a black neighborhood make things safer?


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## futureproof (Nov 2, 2006)

Dominican2dacore said:


> Most idiotic post I've seen so far. If mexicans lack culture then i would like to know what your defintion of culture is because Mexico is and if not is one of the most cultural countries in the west hemisphere.


give me a break, do you think typical dances, food and ancient civilizations and ruins is what i meant to say in my post?

mexicans crossing the border, barely know how to read and write, many didn´t finish primary school, hardly aspired to study in a university etc.

many even think united states = mc´donalds, burguer king, disneyland, evil people etc.

that doesn´t mean these people are thiefs etc., many of them, also, are devouted hard workers, honest people etc.

i just can´t understand people like you thinking their countries have more culture than the united states by having more typical dances, holidays, clothings,foods etc.

when i mean culture, i mean the degree of education, not typical dances or mayas, aztecas, incas etc.


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## Bond James Bond (Aug 23, 2002)

^
Then you should have said education instead of culture. Culture is not the same thing as education.


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

This is just another stereotype from nativists like Pat Buchanan who fears that his kind will eventually be outnumbered by immigrants.


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## another_viet (Oct 10, 2005)

lol 
i just know that asian in the washington d.c. metro. area stay out of the city... they are mostly suburbinites and pretty successful


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## Narcisse (Aug 15, 2006)

"The issue with the domican republic is that most immgrants tend to come from one source country, which is Haiti. And the problem is that in reality DR cant support these people. Dr is poor as it is, yes its alot more devloped then Haiti but it can barely handle its own people. If DR were a developed nation then it would be another situation but the only reason Haitians are targeted is because they take the little jobs there are in the domincan market and work for practically nothing. Any country such as DR that has over a 20% poverty level shouldn't even be considering taking in immigrants. DR does as much as it can. In reality dominicans and hatians get along fine."

I understand the point you make. A taxi driver even said the same thing to me more or less. He said cane workers in his family's village hardly got by much less having to struggle with competition from Haitianos. The DR tourism industry is really picking up, maybe this will help. I hope it doesn't change the culture too much though. I hate to stereotype, good or bad, but I thought people in the DR were among the most welcoming and friendly hosts I've encountered in my travels.


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## Subangite (Sep 20, 2005)

TalB said:


> This is just another stereotype from nativists like Pat Buchanan who fears that his kind will eventually be outnumbered by immigrants.


Is the United States not a country founded by immigrants? The demographics in the US is changing, its only a matter of time, decades from what I hear, according to trends before this century is out that soon the US caucasian majority would become a minority. But this is the beauty that is the US, it is a nation built by migrants, so why start to fear them now when they have been an essential part to US nation building? 

Generally children of migrants do better than the natives as found in the US, I read something about this ages ago. 

I think the immigrants do more good than harm to a country, they are an economic asset, Australia, Canada, the US, countries which accept large numbers of migrants have prospered economically.

Europe needs immigrants, someone has got to pay for the huge social welfare system, quite a few European populations are on the decline. But that said, the differences of migrants would fuse into the culture of the adoptive nations. Imagine in our life time, France is heading towards a 25% muslim population, a non white majority is found in Canada and the US. The faces of nations change, they always have been for a long time. 

Mr_Denmark, would you say that migrants have been good for Denmark as a whole? 

The vast majority of immigrants are law abiding hard working people. The vast majority of migrants only want an opportunity of a better life, immigrants aren't criminals in nature. So the question people need to ask is why do a minority of migrants resort to commiting crimes? Is Denmark for example permitting immigration of criminals into its land?? Or are there more complicated issues at hand? Problems with levels of education, lack of opportunity, the far right, xenophobia? 

To answer the question do immigrants make cities safer? In general, on a whole, yes, simply because when people migrate, they do so to gain better quality of life, better opportunities not found in their homeland, not because for the purposes of commiting crime. The perception immigrants=crime is flawed. The reasons why some immigrant communities in countries disproportionately commit more crimes, is a domestic issue. Some countries have a better time dealing with their migrants than others, why is that? 

The alternative would be to imagine a world without immigrants, there wouldn't be any Laksmi Mittal as the richest Briton, Zlatan Ibrahimovic would not be scoring goals for Sweden, Wilson Kipketer wouldn't be winning olympic medals for Danish glory. I believe more good is done from immigrants than crime.


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## futureproof (Nov 2, 2006)

Subangite said:


> Generally children of migrants do better than the natives as found in the US, I read something about this ages ago.
> 
> I think the immigrants do more good than harm to a country, they are an economic asset, Australia, Canada, the US, countries which accept large numbers of migrants have prospered economically.
> 
> To answer the question do immigrants make cities safer? In general, on a whole, yes, simply because when people migrate, they do so to gain better quality of life, better opportunities not found in their homeland, not because for the purposes of commiting crime. The perception immigrants=crime is flawed. The reasons why some immigrant communities in countries disproportionately commit more crimes, is a domestic issue. Some countries have a better time dealing with their migrants than others, why is that?


migratory laws in canada and australia are very different from the ones in the united states.

australia grants visas only for those migrants who are skilled and needed in there. others would be students going to universities and schools.

that´s why, perhaps, you never hear about racial crimes, racial issues in australia, inmigrants there don´t get crammed into guettos, they interact with local people and have a stable job.

the sydney riots were nothing more but a laugh, they wont even make into the headlines in the united states. 

people migrate to other countries for several reason, one of the main ones is to improve their lifes, but many of them just don´t want to learn the local language, follow the rules in the country etc.

as for the children of inmigrants, they are labeled and discriminated in many countries, therefore, they create many resentments toward society, get togheter with others from their same ethnic group and realease their rage forming chicano-like gangs.

it´s just a personal oppinion


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## Stratosphere 2020 (Sep 15, 2002)

DonQui said:


> :crazy:
> 
> The article is about the United States. You responded saying, "in Denmark no, so my answer is no."
> 
> ...



I agree. Denmark is a whole different ball game pretty much with the rest of Europe.


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## Stratosphere 2020 (Sep 15, 2002)

Mr_Denmark said:


> By being of foreign nationality... or the child of people of foreign nationality...
> 
> The Danish word used is "indvandrer" ( no real English translation except for "immigrant" but it's meaning is: "person who came here from another country or the descendant of one" ) and isn't exactly the same as "immigrant" ( a word we also have and use in the English way ) it's kinda hard to explain... but the two are very closely tied, but you can't call a 2nd generation immigrant "immigrant" but you can call them "indvandrere" ( Eng: immigrant" ) - I hope you understand, it's a bit complicated...
> 
> ...



In the Netherlands there is also such absurd division. Persons born in The Netherlands who one or both parents are born outside the country are considered second generation immigrants. Children of parents born in The Netherlands whose parents were born outside the country are considered third generation immigrants. They are not considered Dutch eventhough they speak the language, most act Dutch and the majority have no bond whatsoever with the country of origin of their ancestors. 

Though this may be good for demographics/statistics, it is a very bad classifying people born here as being immigrants, while they are just as much Dutch. The result is that mainly colored and Muslim people born in the Netherlands do not feel accepted as being Dutch because they are not accepted and treated as such in the first place. 

All that integration talk is bs! There are many well integrated folks of immigrant ancestry, yet it is more difficult for them to find a job even having the same or better papers and speak the language well enough.


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## Stratosphere 2020 (Sep 15, 2002)

Dominican2dacore said:


> Most idiotic post I've seen so far. If mexicans lack culture then i would like to know what your defintion of culture is because Mexico is and if not is one of the most cultural countries in the west hemisphere.



I agree, call it western ignorance.


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## DELCROID (Apr 9, 2006)

*"Immigrants"* ??????!!!!!!.......I would have though it was *"Males Aged Between 16 and 25" *who made cities unsafe....hno: hno: hno: ..


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## vtower (Jan 31, 2006)

Mr_Denmark said:


> Ypu have to keep in mind that it's a very isolated nation, and not the most popular after WW2... when it's economy started moving there were plenty of folks in the country to fill out the jobs, and when the population started slowly to decline they simply started to outsource to places like China and Korea, so there never was a need for foreigners...
> 
> While Japanese people can be overly polite they were really nice to me, I never felt like an outsider when there.. except for the fact that I was towering about 15cm over the crown and dressed like an american tourist in a sea of suits
> 
> ...


Well that's because you are a proper white person. The Japanese tend to worship the white people and insult the others, which I despise of. I of course admire them but we need a lot more black people. The racial discrimination in Japan should never be tolerated. The ethnic diversity is very important, you know. Tokyo needs a lot of works to do to become a cosmopolitan city. I hope it will gradually change in the future.

Respek. kay:


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## cjfjapan (Oct 10, 2004)

vtower said:


> Well that's because you are a proper white person. The Japanese tend to worship the white people and insult the others, which I despise of. I of course admire them but we need a lot more black people. The racial discrimination in Japan should never be tolerated. The ethnic diversity is very important, you know. Tokyo needs a lot of works to do to become a cosmopolitan city. I hope it will gradually change in the future.
> 
> Respek. kay:


Japan's foreign population is now about about 1.8%; about half of the non-Japanese here lack proper papers. 

I agree that folks of European descent are often treated better in Japan, but it is also easier for Asians to settle in to the country long term, IMHO. 

Also the foreign population in Japan is most heavily concentrated in Tokyo and Nagoya - already about 10% of marriages in Tokyo are international. It's the rest of the country that needs to catch up with the capital in this respect.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

Lets get this staright - of the racism in Japan, directed to Asian immigrants, is NOTHING compared to the racism in Western nations. Of course there's right wing propaganda (the infamous black vans spouting 'immigrants out' over the loudspeaker), and all the evils that come along with the extremism, but no one is burned, knifed, firebombed, beaten or spat at on a daily basis, across the nation. 
There's a big difference when violence isnt involved.


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## Tubeman (Sep 12, 2002)

the spliff fairy said:


> Lets get this staright - of the racism in Japan, directed to Asian immigrants, is NOTHING compared to the racism in Western nations. Of course there's right wing propaganda (the infamous black vans spouting 'immigrants out' over the loudspeaker), and all the evils that come along with the extremism, but no one is burned, knifed, firebombed, beaten or spat at on a daily basis, across the nation.
> There's a big difference when violence isnt involved.


Yes and no... There may no be Anthony Walkers getting axes stuck in their heads in Japan, but then again there's a handful of Black people. The more non-indigenous people there are, the more likely there are to be violent racist attacks... its simple probability.

I suspect if parts of Tokyo or Osaka went from homogenous Japanese to majority non-Asian immigrant in a few decades like many areas of Western European cities have then they'd witness much more racism, and possibly violent at that. The Japanese are not famed for being racist simply because there are so few visible minorities there... and the reason for that could be deemed racism in the first place. Most visible (i.e. non East Asian) minorities are Western businessmen who are affluent professionals, they hardly live in ghettoes and go round mugging and raping the locals.

From casual observation I feel that the Japanese can have a tendency to be quite racist toward their Korean and Chinese communities... God forbid how they'd cope with huge tracts of their cities filled with Caribbean, African, South Asian, Arab etc immigrants with the Muslim call to prayer echoing across Tokyo. Not very well, I'd wager.

Just out of interest, is it immediately obvious to a Japanese person that someone is ethnic Korean or Chinese, just from looking at them?


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

No, thats misleading - actually Blacks, along with Whites are treated pretty much like royalty over there, the travel guides eg Lonely Planet even put that into their literature. There is a large Iranian minority too, mosques et al, of the relatively small minorities in Japan, Iranians constitute one of the largest. In the Nineties they famously mounted protests to get citizenship and equality in society - tho' like I said, nothing like what is endured in the West, especially post 911. 

Honestly, in Asia people judge you, but not in the same way as the Western ideal if you know what I mean - one can judge someone but one won't act on those prejudices - its alot to do with live-and-let-live Buddhist/Confucian ideals, and less to do with the Christian morality programming - intolerance at what is perceived as 'wrong'.
Even tho' issues such as homosexuality, ethnicity etc isn't as prominent in society - and in some cases may even be less accepted in society and (in China's case by law) - but you'll adversely get far less a hard time there than in the West. Honestly I urge you to go over and see how people treat not just you, but each other - its all very deferential and nonconfrontational (annoyingly so sometimes)- to show upset is to lose face on all sides involved.
You got to remember ingrained into Asian thinking is tolerance - a reaction to crowded conditions from family life to society as a whole - when the Christian missionaries first came over they were appalled at the flagrant sexual practices, the acceptance of homosexuality and multiculturalism, from Islamic districts in every city, to the gay theatrical stars, to concubines of the men in power. Only now after the 'Western Hangover' period is over has all that tolerance started to reemerge, not that it ever really went away.

Anyway, back to the subject, its the East and SE Asian immigrants that get a harder time- tho' its not like theyre all discriminated against or suffer anything like the inequality Blacks tend to get in the West. Alot is made of in the West about Japanese racism - and sometimes I really do think the Western perspective is all about putting down other peoples and putting themselves on some kind of pedestal.
- The worst issues would be the Filipino maids who suffer an underclass, as in all the major Asian cities.

And yes, Koreans and Chinese are distinct - Koreans tend to have a certain 'set' to their features, and the Chinese have large, double lidded eyes and a broader face.


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## Tubeman (Sep 12, 2002)

the spliff fairy said:


> No, thats misleading - actually Blacks, along with Whites are treated pretty much like royalty over there, the travel guides eg Lonely Planet even put that into their literature. Its the Asian immigrants that get a hard time. The thing with Japan is the closer you are, the worse it can be, not the other way round.


Much the same way the its 'ok' to be racist towards French or Germans in our culture, but in our case its more a gentle competitive ribbing due to our long and colourful histories. I think the Japanese attitude towards Koreans and Chinese is a lot more sinister (i.e. as inferiors rather than equals). 

If as you say Blacks are treated like 'royalty' in Japan, thats because of the popularity of Black culture and sheer novelty value of them. If there were 1 million Blacks residing in Tokyo who were mostly poor, lived in ghettoes like Peckham and Harlesden and who had problems with single parenthood, underachievement at school, drugs and gun crime then I doubt they'd still be treated 'like royalty'.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

I agree race relations would head steadily downhill if that would ever happen, but I really don't know if the Japanese govt, as one of the over-nannying states, would allow any set of a million people to form into a poor ghetto.

Japan has many poor people contrary to the image it projects, but theyre not bunched together and more importantly in the govts eyes- dont suffer together. You don't find the estates or projects in Japan as you would in Europe, US, SE Asia.

If I can ask a question, -if the govt/society totally failed them and that ghetto scenario did come about, do you think the Japanese people would treat the Blacks as well or worse than Europeans would?

My answer would be that there would still be the problems but there would be less violence in today's Japan just due to ingrained Buddhist ideology in the culture, and the heavy dismantling of militarist culture post WWII (read: machismo). There may be just as high levels of racism and prejudice, but less overt expressions of such, and less violence imo.

btw the Japanese do have their Chinese and Korean pop idols too, there is alot of cross cultural pollination going on at the mo' - a big difference from the Eighties where China and Korea actually had laws against doing business with Japanese firms due to post WWII tensions (read: lack of apology).


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## Zaki (Apr 16, 2005)

the spliff fairy said:


> Lets get this staright - of the racism in Japan, directed to Asian immigrants, is NOTHING compared to the racism in Western nations. Of course there's right wing propaganda (the infamous black vans spouting 'immigrants out' over the loudspeaker), and all the evils that come along with the extremism, but no one is burned, knifed, firebombed, beaten or spat at on a daily basis, across the nation.
> There's a big difference when violence isnt involved.


I don't disagree with you there, but europe is far from the worst. In the middle east, immigrnats of south asian and south east asian are openly mistreated and seen as just servants. They have no rights at all even though they are the ones who are keeping the countries functioning and you will encounter racism from arabs there wherever you go. Compared to the racism of the middle east, europe is heavenly.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

That may be the case but i don't think we can paint a whole race/culture as racist - Europe nor ME nor Japan, that in itself is prejudicial.

Im not saying Europe is fundamentally more racist.

The Middle East, just like Europe is very cosmopolitan, historically there have been over 300 ethnic groups and cultures living in relative peace outside wartime (eg Crusades, collapse of the Ottoman Empire etc), and Im talking Jewish and Christians and Muslims living side by side and intermarrying too, - its only in modern political times has tensions arisen again, from rapid service sector immigration to the ME crises and the growth of fundamentalism, to post 911 politics. In short it could be MUCH more of a tinderbox - just look at whats happening in Iraq...

Ah, history and the perfect world... there was a time when every major European, Asian and Middle Eastern city had Jewish, Muslim, and Christian districts living in peace. Don't believe for a second they can't.


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## Intoxication (Jul 24, 2005)

*Immigrants are warmly welcomed by governments (Turkish workers in Germany, Pakistanis in Bradford) when and where it is felt that there is a need to be met. When the niche is filled or disapears, the welcome quickly chills. Rarely are they welcomed for humanitarian reasons. The cold view of so many goverments is that immigrants are fine so long as they are net producers rather than net consumers, or so long as they do not trigger too much to change in society.*

A person's racial background doesn't determine whether he/she will be a criminal or not. It all depends on the socio-economic situation of that individual. There is no right answer to the question of this thread.

Anyways.... 

_Contribution to the UK's economy by Immigrants:_

In 1999-2000, immigrants accounted for 8.8% of government tax receipts and 8.4% of government spending. By 2003-04, immigrants accounted for 10% of government tax receipts and 9.1% of government spending.

Total revenue from immigrants grew in real terms from 33.8 bn pounds in 1999-00 to 41.2 pounds in 2003-04. This 22% increase compares favourably to the 6% increase for UK born.

Immigrants are overrepresented at the upper end of the income spectrum. For example, some 4.7% of the foreign-born working age population earn more than 1000 pounds weekly compared to only 2.6% of the UK-born.

At the very bottom end of the distribution, 12.8% of UK-born earn less than 100 pounds a week compared to 9.7% of foreign-born.

The foreign-born population makes a relatively higher contribution to tax revenue as they have higher earnings compared to those born in the UK and are situated at the upper end of the income spectrum, immigrnats pay proportionally higher amounts of tax due to the progressive nature of the taxation system. 

The Institue of Asian Professionals state that within the broad spectrum of immigrant groups British Asians make up 4% of the population but contibute 103 billion pounds to the economy - abouth 10% of the country's economic output. Within London alone there are 40,000 Asian-owned businesses, which have created 300,000 jobs and are contrubuting 60 billion pounds to the economy.

SOURCE: Geo-News Review September 2005

P.S by 'Asian' they mean South Asian, not East Asian or South East Asian :tongue2:


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## vtower (Jan 31, 2006)

cjfjapan said:


> Japan's foreign population is now about about 1.8%; about half of the non-Japanese here lack proper papers.
> 
> I agree that folks of European descent are often treated better in Japan, but it is also easier for Asians to settle in to the country long term, IMHO.
> 
> Also the foreign population in Japan is most heavily concentrated in Tokyo and Nagoya - already about 10% of marriages in Tokyo are international. It's the rest of the country that needs to catch up with the capital in this respect.


Sure, only 2% out of the entire population! Tokyo has many international couples but it is not the same way perceived in the western nations. First of all, the people immediately stare at you, if you even talk to the foreigners or when they hear the foreign languages. The other cities in Japan are more or less the same or even worse. They don't even treat the foreigners like the proper human being. The foreigners to live in Japan, they strictly have to follow the narrow rules of Japanese culture. Conformity is very important. The people basically hate someone doing different from the others. If not, they resort whatever the ways to kick you out of the society. Of course, I believe the foreigners should follow certain social rules but their rules are like, forcing the black people to bow to their senior managers or keep virginity to follow the confucian rules! They are regarded good manner over there. Good or bad manners all depending upon the Japanese (Asian) cultural values. Who do you think you are. I'm gonna fucking kick their arses, a bunch of wankers. They treat the black people terrible. 

:cheers2:


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## vtower (Jan 31, 2006)

the spliff fairy said:


> Lets get this staright - of the racism in Japan, directed to Asian immigrants, is NOTHING compared to the racism in Western nations. Of course there's right wing propaganda (the infamous black vans spouting 'immigrants out' over the loudspeaker), and all the evils that come along with the extremism, but no one is burned, knifed, firebombed, beaten or spat at on a daily basis, across the nation.
> There's a big difference when violence isnt involved.


Where in the western nations you are burned, knifed, firebomed, beaten or spat at on a daily basis? :lol: 

Perhaps the Japanese or Chinese keep telling these shameless lies to their own people all the time, using as propaganda against the western nations. But that's obviously a paranoia you have.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

er mate I live in the West. Like all crimes, there are several race hate ones here every day - you can't deny that as 'Chinese propaganda' (-wtf??).


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## vtower (Jan 31, 2006)

the spliff fairy said:


> And yes, Koreans and Chinese are distinct - Koreans tend to have a certain 'set' to their features, and the Chinese have large, double lidded eyes and a broader face.


I think this is bollocks. It's like you are saying all the French are brunette and all the Germans are blond. For the eyes of westerners, this is laughable to even talk about. The Asians are not significantly different from each other like the brunettes and blonds in Europe. The faces in Asia are all the same. Some minor differences don't make you special from the others. I mean can you distinguish between the Chinese and Vietnamese or Japanese and Korean? I can't, mate. We are all the same. We've got slant eyes, bad breath, croocked teeth and small *****. What's your opinion on that? 

:lol: :cheers:


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## vtower (Jan 31, 2006)

the spliff fairy said:


> er mate I live in the West. Like all crimes, there are several race hate ones here every day - you can't deny that as 'Chinese propaganda' (-wtf??).


No I don't deny your personal experiences. But they don't happen in daily basis. In which western country do you live? Somewhere in Albania or something? 

:lol:


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## vtower (Jan 31, 2006)

Why there aren't many black people in Asia? I like to see millions of them flooding the streets of Tokyo or Hong Kong. They are the friendliest people in the world. They should have an equal opportunity. hno:


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## krull (Oct 8, 2005)

These signs are found in many Japanese businesses. That is very racist to me. :down:


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## vtower (Jan 31, 2006)

^^ The Japanese dislike the outsiders. Everything has to be the same as them. It's an illness of this country. So the western nations should also put up the signs like "All the Asians out" or something against them.


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## vtower (Jan 31, 2006)

Asia is I think the ugliest, most barbaric continent on the whole planet. The people are living in the past. :no:


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## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

That's going a bit too far...

I just think Japan is an earlier stage of the immigration game than the West is, when they see that they need immigrants to grow in population and economically (unless they start having lots of babies), then they will have no choice....

Even as little as a bit more than forty years ago, the US also had really harsh immigration laws (which basically barred immigration from everywhere in the world except Europe) and signs with "whites only" were around in certain areas. And look how it has changed since then...it will eventually happen in Japan as well.


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## vtower (Jan 31, 2006)

I don't think it will ever change. Japan has only improved its technology stealing from the west but not the society itself, the people's mentality changed nothing since the medieval time. 

hno:


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

vtower said:


> No I don't deny your personal experiences. But they don't happen in daily basis. In which western country do you live? Somewhere in Albania or something?
> 
> :lol:



My friend you have a major chip on your shoulder. I live in Britain, do you honestly think Western countries don't have hate crimes committed on a daily basis? Do you really want me to post the stats on that?
Tell me where you live too. Ill very willingly do some research on your place of worship - sorry - residence. You just let me know.

And what exactly do you have against the Japanese? - or the Albanians for that matter. Your bigotry is telling.

oh and btw, do leave the playground attitude in the playground.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

vtower said:


> Asia is I think the ugliest, most barbaric continent on the whole planet. The people are living in the past. :no:





vtower said:


> I don't think it will ever change. Japan has only improved its technology stealing from the west but not the society itself, the people's mentality changed nothing since the medieval time.
> 
> hno:


I think these say it all.

Heres a hint vtower: youre shooting yourself in the foot... but hey, by all means feel free to paint yourself as racist...


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## futureproof (Nov 2, 2006)

vtower said:


> I don't think it will ever change. Japan has only improved its technology stealing from the west but not the society itself, the people's mentality changed nothing since the medieval time.
> 
> hno:


to be true, in japan, people are living 100 years ahead of the united states, europe or australia.

whenever you want to see how your country would be like 100 years in futures, you just have to look on japanese society, cities etc.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

*Heaven forbid ANYWHERE may be a little more civilised than the echelons of The West (read: white). Heaven forbid anyone even infer it!

A post on how less violent a country would be than in the West is obviously tantamount to a slur and direct attack on the great civilisation! Yay! Lets declare war, we're good at that!

Cue: this is the bit where everyone points out how uncivilised that upstart place is, and posts up pictures on their uncivil practices, how sexist, racist and stupid they are - historically or contemporaneously it doesnt matter which- and moreover that if-you-had-our-cross-to-bear-you-would-be-worse-argument-anyway, so nyaaah (Jeez imagine if we ever dared turn that mirror to the West), and anyway anything you did achieve was copied - no stolen off our backs. How dare they! 
That would show them their place.

but Oh, someone already has.*


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## polako (Apr 7, 2005)

futureproof said:


> to be true, in japan, people are living 100 years ahead of the united states, europe or australia.
> 
> whenever you want to see how your country would be like 100 years in futures, you just have to look on japanese society, cities etc.



No. What kind of drugs are you on? Tell me where I can get some.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

Look this is tiring. Can you guys just fucking get over Japan?


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## vtower (Jan 31, 2006)

the spliff fairy said:


> My friend you have a major chip on your shoulder. I live in Britain, do you honestly think Western countries don't have hate crimes committed on a daily basis? Do you really want me to post the stats on that?


You can live anywhere you like. Post whatever the stats you like. If you are living in Britain, you should realise that the UK is the safest nation with the most tolerant people in the world. You never really have the poorest people even though there are some slummy areas.


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## vtower (Jan 31, 2006)

futureproof said:


> to be true, in japan, people are living 100 years ahead of the united states, europe or australia.
> 
> whenever you want to see how your country would be like 100 years in futures, you just have to look on japanese society, cities etc.


You are tricked by the neons. Japan is virtually 100 years behind of the US and Europe.

:no:


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## vtower (Jan 31, 2006)

the spliff fairy said:


> Look this is tiring. Can you guys just fucking get over Japan?


Perhaps you are the one having a serious chip on your shoulder and can't get over Japan.

:cheers:


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

Jesusfuckingchrist ...on that note..
I honest to God shake my head, I give up.

How old are you?


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## vtower (Jan 31, 2006)

the spliff fairy said:


> Jesusfuckingchrist ...on that note..
> I honest to God shake my head, I give up.
> 
> How old are you?


A lot of the Chinese people ask about my age. I do answer to your question. I'm 40, a dirty old man. 

:banana:


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

Youre a gem, vtower.
I rest my case for the Western response to 'race relations'.


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## Treasure (Mar 24, 2006)

i doubt vtower is japanese , hes probably some british tourist who had a bad visit to japan and never forgot about it .


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

I fucking well hope not, I dont want him batting for Britain.
Maybe a Geisha pissed in his drink.


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## Ohno (Jul 1, 2006)

I am sure vtower is Japanese. He is talking in an opposite way,but still I believe he is _pepsi cola_.


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