# China to create world's largest city - incredible



## travelworld123 (Sep 24, 2008)

Hi, i'm not sure if this is the right section to post it but this is incredible!

http://www.cnngo.com/shanghai/life/china-create-worlds-largest-city-603874

Heres a pic from another article about the same story










pic from Dailymail UK


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## HK999 (Jul 17, 2009)

there's already a thread in the skybar section: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1307947


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

the cities are already connected up, separated only by short distances or rivers (check it out on Google Earth, from Guangzhou down the coastal strip to Shenzhen).

This is central Guangzhou (12 million) - across the river is Dongguan (8 million), which is connected to Shenzhen (out of shot) with 10 million.











Guangzhou top, Shenzhen starts at right and continues down the coast, other cities at left:


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## Chrissib (Feb 9, 2008)

Do they really plan to merge the administrative regions or do they only want to connect the citys of the Pearl River Delta more?


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## Myouzke (May 24, 2009)

Merging the administrative regions isn't going to happen its just more integration that all.


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## Chrissib (Feb 9, 2008)

Myouzke said:


> Merging the administrative regions isn't going to happen its just more integration that all.


OK, I wonder if it's the first metro-area to grow beyond 50 million people.


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

*Chinese cities*

So far, the biggest city in the world is Jiuquan and the most populous city is Chongqing.

Guangdong is the most populous province in the world, and its population is ill defined, somewhere between 95 million and 115 million.

Now consider Guangzhou+8 nearby cities: Dongguan, Shenzhen, Foshan, Zhongshan, Zhuhai, Huizhou, Jiangmen, Zhaoqing.

Their populations are ill defined, too, but I get something like:

Guangzhou - 10 million
Dongguan - 7 million
Shenzhen - 9 million
Foshan - 6 million
Zhongshan - 2,5 million
Zhuhai - 1,5 million
Huizhou - 4 million
Jiangmen - 4 million
Zhaoqing - 4 million

total: 48 million

But their areas, a better defined measure, are:

Guangzhou - 7400 sq. km
Dongguan - 2500 sq. km
Shenzhen - 2000 sq. km
Foshan - 3800 sq. km
Zhongshan - 1800 sq. km
Zhuhai - 1700 sq. km
Huizhou - 11 200 sq. km
Jiangmen - 9300 sq. km
Zhaoqing - 22 300 sq. km

total: 62 000 sq. km
Yes, it is a smaller area than Chongqing, and more people, but still not awfully dense. The only dense areas are Shenzhen and Dongguan. Even Guangzhou and Foshan are quite sparsely settled.

Compare with Shanghai+6 nearby cities: Suzhou, Wuxi, Changzhou, Nantong, Jiaxing, Hangzhou

Populations:

Shanghai - 19 millions
Suzhou - 6 millions
Wuxi - 4,5 millions
Changzhou - 4,5 millions
Nantong - 8 millions
Jiaxing - 3 millions
Hangzhou - 8 millions

total - 53 millions

Areas:
Shanghai - 6300 sq. km
Suzhou - 8500 sq. km
Wuxi - 4800 sq. km
Changzhou - 4400 sq. km
Nantong - 8000 sq. km
Jiaxing - 3900 sq. km
Hangzhou - 16 800 sq. km

total - about 53 000 sq. km

Both smaller and more populous than Guangzhou+8 - slightly.

What is now growing faster - Guangzhou+8 or Shanghai+6?

Exactly how shall Guangzhou+8 be connected? When shall Guangzhou-Shenzhen high speed railway be completed? Note that Shanghai-Nanjing and Shanghai-Hangzhou high speed railways have been completed.


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## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

We're all doomed!


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## DrDre (Dec 11, 2010)

i must use very sensitive and intelligent GPS to move around in this city. :crazy:


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

chornedsnorkack said:


> So far, the biggest city in the world is Jiuquan and the most populous city is Chongqing.
> 
> Guangdong is the most populous province in the world, and its population is ill defined, somewhere between 95 million and 115 million.
> 
> ...


The total area of the single city theyre creating will be 16,000 sq. km, 62,000. The area counts you use are a mix of urban and rural, though the vast majority are urban, hence why the population doesnt change that much. For example Guangzhou prefecture counts 12 million, but urbanites 10 million (if not considerably higher if migrants are counted) - in other words less than 2 million are rural.

In other words urban (16,000 sq km): 42 million
CSA (62,000 sq km) c. 50 million.


Also bear in mind the urban area will include many mountains surrounded by contiguous urbanity, which gives the impression of low density when in fact it's very high:

Shenzhen


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## Chrissib (Feb 9, 2008)

Afaik the Pearl River Delta still grows faster. Citypopulation gives population-growth of roughly 4% per year for the PRD-metro-areas and 2% per year for Shanghai and it's neighboring metropolitan areas. 

btw I don't consider Huizhou, Jiangmen and Zhaoqing part of the real Pearl River Delta. They're too far away to be considered part of the Pearl River Delta metropolitan area. But if you want to compare it with the bigger regions like the Yangtse-delta it's ok to consider them part of the PRD.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

Jiangmen yes (check it out on Google Earth, a contiguous string of towns and cities connects it up to Guangzhou's outskirts), the other two no.


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

Chrissib said:


> btw I don't consider Huizhou, Jiangmen and Zhaoqing part of the real Pearl River Delta. They're too far away to be considered part of the Pearl River Delta metropolitan area.


If they are excluded, we wind up with 19 200 sq. km of Guangzhou+5, and 36 million people.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

...


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## frashp2 (Jan 25, 2011)

The Korean cities are large, too. 

Truely out of the planet.


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## Sarcasticity (May 21, 2005)

A megapolis in the making? Like how many people thought Boston to Washington DC would get built up and form one big metropolis


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## frashp2 (Jan 25, 2011)

Again it all happens.


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## foadi (Feb 15, 2006)

Sarcasticity said:


> A megapolis in the making? Like how many people thought Boston to Washington DC would get built up and form one big metropolis


the PRD region is much smaller than the baswash region


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## _00_deathscar (Mar 16, 2005)

foadi said:


> the PRD region is much smaller than the baswash region


Bus from Hong Kong to Guangzhou is what - 2 hours drive?


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

80 miles Guangzhou to Shenzhen - and all built up on the way, no gaps (other than crossing the river).


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## frashp2 (Jan 25, 2011)

Nowhere close to it.


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

frashp2 said:


> The Korean cities are large, too.
> 
> Truely out of the planet.


South Korea has 49 million people. The second city, Pusan, has what, 3,6 million people.

Japan has 120 million people, and their second city is Osaka.

China has about 1350 million people. So how many people in their second city?


> Bus from Hong Kong to Guangzhou is what - 2 hours drive?


Guangzhou-Shenzhen railway is 147 km, with 20 stations incl. termini. Nonstop trains cover the distance in 52 minutes, at 200 km/h.

The high speed railway is 116 km, with 6 stops including termini. When shall it open for traffic?


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## frashp2 (Jan 25, 2011)

What are you talking about here . . . ?


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## Mr Bricks (May 6, 2005)

the spliff fairy said:


>


Hell on earth.


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## mgk920 (Apr 21, 2007)

chornedsnorkack said:


> South Korea has 49 million people. The second city, Pusan, has what, 3,6 million people.
> 
> Japan has 120 million people, and their second city is Osaka.
> 
> ...


From what I am aware of, the true high-speed railroad that is now under construction between Guangzhou and Hong kong will open in stages, the part in China proper should open later this year and operate with a maximum speed of 350 km/h (the highest speed now operating in China) and the Hong Kong part in 2016. The Hong Kong part will be nearly entirely in tunnels, including its planned underground terminal station in a highly congested part of West Kowloon, and operate at 200 km/h. I have seen renderings of this, it is truly mind-blowing!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong_Kong_Express_Rail_Link

There is also an extensive discussion of this in the Railways section of the Infrastructure and Mobility subforvm here in SSC.

Mike


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## hadrett32 (Dec 8, 2010)

it must be very horrible and unhealthy to live in such a 'monstrosity'


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## foadi (Feb 15, 2006)

hadrett32 said:


> it must be very horrible and unhealthy to live in such a 'monstrosity'





Mr Bricks said:


> Hell on earth.


hno:

id much rather live in dongguan than toronto and helsinki


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## Chrissib (Feb 9, 2008)

hadrett32 said:


> it must be very horrible and unhealthy to live in such a 'monstrosity'


Less unhealthy than to live in a city with a hostile climate to people. The people in HK have a higher life expectancy and health in general than your average Torontonian.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

NOT hell on earth. The Guangzhou CBD:

























































































































the grand axis, will be lined with eco friendly supertalls





























































































Guangzhou Opera House
















































More city in the thread here:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=619404&page=12

.


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## frashp2 (Jan 25, 2011)

Mr Bricks said:


> Hell on earth.


Y E S. :lol:

For the locals, probably not. 

You always look up something you shouldn't . . .


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## hadrett32 (Dec 8, 2010)

foadi said:


> hno:
> 
> id much rather live in dongguan than toronto and helsinki


yeah i'd rather live in Mumbai or Bangalore than in Bangkokhno:



Chrissib said:


> Less unhealthy than to live in a city with a hostile climate to people. The people in HK have a higher life expectancy and health in general than your average Torontonian


That might be true, however Toronto is FAR more environment-friendly than HK in regard of the CO2 emission. I guess the 'hostile climate' is probably worse in the Frankfurt area.


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## frashp2 (Jan 25, 2011)

I prefer the Korean skyline - I can clealy see what's happening. 

However not on the local place, leaving from the Hell. 




the spliff fairy said:


> NOT hell on earth. The Guangzhou CBD:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## foadi (Feb 15, 2006)

hadrett32 said:


> yeah i'd rather live in Mumbai or Bangalore than in Bangkokhno:
> 
> 
> 
> That might be true, however Toronto is FAR more environment-friendly than HK in regard of the CO2 emission. I guess the 'hostile climate' is probably worse in the Frankfurt area.


edit: oops forgot city vs city sorry


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## Atmosphere (Mar 15, 2009)

Alright enough city versus city! You think you can get a good read and al you see is a city versus city battle -_-.

The same thread in the "in the news" sections is much better.


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## _00_deathscar (Mar 16, 2005)

Was it really necessary to quote the whole post of pictures?


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Regional integration is not going to work with the CRH expansion. The delta is primarily a manufacturing region, with lots of factories that produce all sorts of consumer goods for export. These factories attract migrant workers from the countryside and other provinces. It's typical practice here for factories to offer on-site housing to their workers. Hence, people don't commute to begin with, so what is the likelihood of someone living in, say, Shenzhen, taking a train to Dongguan?

Besides, the CRH is a very expensive way to travel for the average factory worker. Shenzhen to Guangzhou East costs 80 yuan for second class. These workers make a few thousand a month if lucky. How can they sustain a commuting cost of 80*2*20 yuan a month?


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## Myouzke (May 24, 2009)

^^
CRH isn't the only being built they are actually building commuter rail as well.

*City to spend￥14b on rail*
Han Ximin
2011-January-27 08:53 
Shenzhen Daily


> SHENZHEN will spend 14 billion yuan (US$2.12 billion) on rail projects this year with Shenzhen North Railway Station expected to open in June.
> 
> A meeting of the city rail transport and construction office was told Tuesday that the construction of Metro lines 7, 9 and 11 would start this year.
> 
> ...


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## foadi (Feb 15, 2006)

hkskyline said:


> Regional integration is not going to work with the CRH expansion. The delta is primarily a manufacturing region, with lots of factories that produce all sorts of consumer goods for export. These factories attract migrant workers from the countryside and other provinces. It's typical practice here for factories to offer on-site housing to their workers. Hence, people don't commute to begin with, so what is the likelihood of someone living in, say, Shenzhen, taking a train to Dongguan?


changping, dongguan is big time nightlife area. thousands of guys w/ money from shenzhen and hk go to the ktvs and saunas every weekend.



_00_deathscar said:


> Was it really necessary to quote the whole post of pictures?


ya i hate that. what's wrong with ppl


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## travelworld123 (Sep 24, 2008)

I think this whole area will be an incredible place on earth. I've only visited HK, Macau & Shenzhen so I don't have a full sense of the Pearl River Delta.

HK, already an amazing world city and just a short trip across the hills you find yourself in another megacity and not far off is another megapolis.

People who've been here and know it well - what is the street population like especially in Guangzhou? Like do you see a sense of density and lots of people like in terms of Shanghai?

I'm just curious as I haven't seen many photos of Guangzhou street activity, mainly only the new modern skyscrapers


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

foadi said:


> changping, dongguan is big time nightlife area. thousands of guys w/ money from shenzhen and hk go to the ktvs and saunas every weekend.
> 
> 
> ya i hate that. what's wrong with ppl


So the integration of the delta region purely relies on the richer classes from Shenzhen and Hong Kong having fun at night in the secondary cities?


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## CoCoMilk (Jul 9, 2009)

chornedsnorkack said:


> Their populations are ill defined, too, but I get something like:
> 
> Guangzhou - 10 million
> Dongguan - 7 million
> ...


Those population numbers are wayyy outdated....both Guangzhou and Shenzhen have more than 14 million population and other cities are higher too.,

Suzhou is close to 10million while Shanghai is near 24million


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

This is only good creating it in Simcity 4


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## foadi (Feb 15, 2006)

CoCoMilk said:


> Those population numbers are wayyy outdated....both Guangzhou and Shenzhen have more than 14 million population and other cities are higher too.,
> 
> Suzhou is close to 10million while Shanghai is near 24million


the 2010 census has shanghai at 23 mil 

http://www.cnngo.com/shanghai/life/shanghai-just-officially-got-bit-more-crowded-096925

havent released pops for other cities yet, at least on english paper. maybe someone who reads chinese can find out if theyve been released yet. i would be interested in seeing new numbers. this is supposed to be the most accurate census yet (but then i dont trust census figures in such dynamic countries as china ... migrant workers always very difficult to count)


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## Myouzke (May 24, 2009)

travelworld123 said:


> I think this whole area will be an incredible place on earth. I've only visited HK, Macau & Shenzhen so I don't have a full sense of the Pearl River Delta.
> 
> HK, already an amazing world city and just a short trip across the hills you find yourself in another megacity and not far off is another megapolis.
> 
> ...


Shangxiajiu one of Guangzhou's pedestrian street 

























http://******.net/CN20101128-19-Guangzhou-Shangxiajiu.jpg

Beijing Lu another pedestrian street 

















Jiangnan Xilu and Jiangnan Dadaozhong intersection somewhere close to my grandparents house


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## foadi (Feb 15, 2006)

hkskyline said:


> So the integration of the delta region purely relies on the richer classes from Shenzhen and Hong Kong having fun at night in the secondary cities?


just one group that makes the trip. and they use existing infrastructure.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

So right now there is not even a strong argument that the cities themselves are or can be integrated, given people don't commute long distances from one to the other for work.

In fact, I see integration far more relevant for cargo movements.


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## foadi (Feb 15, 2006)

hkskyline said:


> So right now there is not even a strong argument that the cities themselves are or can be integrated, given people don't commute long distances from one to the other for work.


you're anti-development attitude has always confused the hell out of me. why do you live in big cities with a lot of infrastructure? you seem to hate it. this is an honest question. every time you come into one of these threads you say something along these lines.

while the cities in the PRD region have been around for a while, most of the development in them, and in fact most of the population, is new. these cities are still developing an identity. do many people commute from dongguan to shenzhen right now? probably not many, why would they? the infrastructure to make this possible hasn't even been in place very long. but that doesn't mean it wont happen in the future, the PRD cities aren't very far apart. look at CSA's in the US, they are much more spread out. and the car culture in mainland china has only begun to develop. what are things going to look like 30 years from now?

building a bunch of lines connecting these cities is a good thing. if anything it will give commuters options in the future, something americans, for example, generally don't have in their own cities. this will make a huge impact on the constant war with traffic congestion. china is making the right decision here, building the infrastructure before the problem gets out of hand.


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## Myouzke (May 24, 2009)

I am not sure about Dongguan and Shenzhen but people do commute in Guangzhou to Foshan vice versa.


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

hkskyline said:


> Regional integration is not going to work with the CRH expansion. The delta is primarily a manufacturing region, with lots of factories that produce all sorts of consumer goods for export. These factories attract migrant workers from the countryside and other provinces. It's typical practice here for factories to offer on-site housing to their workers. Hence, people don't commute to begin with, so what is the likelihood of someone living in, say, Shenzhen, taking a train to Dongguan?
> 
> Besides, the CRH is a very expensive way to travel for the average factory worker. Shenzhen to Guangzhou East costs 80 yuan for second class. These workers make a few thousand a month if lucky. How can they sustain a commuting cost of 80*2*20 yuan a month?


Oh yes, but the factories employ a large number of people besides the average migrant workers.

Take Humen, the second biggest town in China, which has a station on CRH between Guangzhou and Shenzhen. Sure, an average factory worker from Hunan might live in an on-site barrack offered by the factory without wife or child, and afford a CRH ticket to Xianning North once a year, for New Year.

But the same factory could also employ a large number of qualified engineers, foremen and mid-level managers. If they have bought themselves a flat in Shenzhen, a hukou in Shenzhen, put their child in a school in Shenzhen and set up home there, are they going to uproot it all when a factory opens in Humen because land is cheaper there? I suspect that a factory in Humen might employ a fair number of people who can afford CRH ticket to Shenzhen twice daily.

Besides, what is the deal offered by factories to the higher level workers - from the director of factory downwards? Are a villa or penthouse, domestic servants and school for children offered on site by the factory, or are the top workers supposed to get their big salary and provide for it themselves?

In any case, a state factory certainly would not provide for the homes of er nai officially. That is immediately one source of demand for traffic, because I understand that wives are often unwilling to live harmoniously next door to er nai.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

foadi said:


> you're anti-development attitude has always confused the hell out of me. why do you live in big cities with a lot of infrastructure? you seem to hate it. this is an honest question. every time you come into one of these threads you say something along these lines.
> 
> while the cities in the PRD region have been around for a while, most of the development in them, and in fact most of the population, is new. these cities are still developing an identity. do many people commute from dongguan to shenzhen right now? probably not many, why would they? the infrastructure to make this possible hasn't even been in place very long. but that doesn't mean it wont happen in the future, the PRD cities aren't very far apart. look at CSA's in the US, they are much more spread out. and the car culture in mainland china has only begun to develop. what are things going to look like 30 years from now?
> 
> building a bunch of lines connecting these cities is a good thing. if anything it will give commuters options in the future, something americans, for example, generally don't have in their own cities. this will make a huge impact on the constant war with traffic congestion. china is making the right decision here, building the infrastructure before the problem gets out of hand.


So what does integration mean to you? Is there even an economic need to do so at this point? Integration starts with a need, and if there is no need, creating infrastructure from scratch would not likely make it work. We've seen enough flops with grandiose urban planning projects in China to learn the lesson over and over again.

Comparing with urban developments in the developed world is bound for disaster given the different demographic, income, and economic model in the Pearl River Delta.

We need to consider "smart" growth, not integration for the sake of it. Connecting the cities with rail and highways is theoretically a good thing, but is there an economic basis? Shall we spend billions on projects but in the end the people don't need it or cannot afford it?

I think infrastructure for cargo / export is the first priority. Then there is economic reason and wealth dissipated to residents to justify the other passenger projects.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

chornedsnorkack said:


> Oh yes, but the factories employ a large number of people besides the average migrant workers.
> 
> Take Humen, the second biggest town in China, which has a station on CRH between Guangzhou and Shenzhen. Sure, an average factory worker from Hunan might live in an on-site barrack offered by the factory without wife or child, and afford a CRH ticket to Xianning North once a year, for New Year.
> 
> ...


Do you know how much even the middle management make in these factories? Can they afford CRH on a regular basis? How about those that can afford the luxury - do they account for a reasonable percentage of the population to enjoy and break even the projects on hand? Without providing income statistics, the concept of better-off qualified mid-level managers is useless.

The crowds at Guangzhou East now are not for CRH, but local trains. However, it appears the projects being focussed on these days are for the expensive stuff these average people cannot afford.


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## hkhui (Feb 28, 2010)

Not every project is meant to be profitable, hkskyline, though I'm not saying CRH won't be profitable in the long run.

It is hard to predict how people will travel in the future - but it is very possible that people in China can afford to travel more in the future. 

In my opinion, these are some of the reasons why China is building these railways:


1. Accomodate for future transportation demand, including commuters, students and tourists, both foreign and Chinese.

2. Set an example for other countries how to deal with the environment. We know how the U.S. moaned about China and other developing countries for not doing enough for the climate. Railways, renewable energy station and integrating the PRD are steps to reduce the carbon emissions as well. Actually acting, not just talking about it. 

3. Showing the world that China is up to, and can surpass developed countries in building/producing high-tech stuff. 

4. Giving good jobs to people.

5. Help building up a high-tech mentality in the Chinese people. One of the best way to encourage people's mind to take a higher education is to see for yourself.

6. National pride.



Some of the above factors are hard to estimate a price on.

While your arguments about costs and demand are valid, one should not be short-sighted. There are probably several external benefits (and costs) not taken account for. Perhaps Beijing is building all these projects now while the labour costs and raw materials are low? Also, China spends some of her dollar reserves while the dollar has a relatively high value?

When other emerging countries start to build their projects, one can assume that the price will go up. 

And what is the alternative? More cars and buses? 
As for better infrastructure for cargo: If the passenger trains are taken from the old line to high speed, that will increase cargo capacity. If I recall correctly, one railway official said that one passenger train prevents two cargo trains from running.

Actually building high speed railway is a way of helping cargo transport. Did you take that into account when saying most people can't afford taking CRH now?

I guess that if China was short-sighted and only focused on the short-run profit, it would have focused much more on cheap coal power plants and highways (which they have done the last decades).

Comparing with a train ticket:
Can every Chinese afford a car or taking the bus? Does the motorway in China have the capacity? Will it be environmentally friendly enough? Safe enough? 

Is there a need to integrate the PRD? I assume that there are still (much more) productivity gains in Chinese farming, meaning that fewer people will work in the rural area. They might no longer want to live in the rural area, but rather work comfortably in a city. At least, that is the concensus.

Wouldn't it be best if China already had the infrastructure built, rather than start to build when the capacity is nearing its limits?


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## frashp2 (Jan 25, 2011)

Atmosphere said:


> Alright enough city versus city! You think you can get a good read and al you see is a city versus city battle -_-.
> 
> The same thread in the "in the news" sections is much better.


Yes it's enough city versus city at least not in HERE.


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

hkskyline said:


> Do you know how much even the middle management make in these factories? Can they afford CRH on a regular basis? How about those that can afford the luxury - do they account for a reasonable percentage of the population to enjoy and break even the projects on hand? Without providing income statistics, the concept of better-off qualified mid-level managers is useless.
> 
> The crowds at Guangzhou East now are not for CRH, but local trains. However, it appears the projects being focussed on these days are for the expensive stuff these average people cannot afford.


Pearl River Delta already has the old Guangzhou-Shenzhen railway upgraded to 4 tracks throughout and 200 km/h express trains, and in this month opened a new high speed railway Guangzhou-Zhuhai, also 200 km/h. Guangzhou-Wuhan high sped railway, at 350 km/h, has been open for a year. In Yangtze Delta, both Shanghai-Nanjing high-speed railway and Shanghai-Hangzhou high speed railway opened in last year, and are 350 km/h.

People complain about high prices and inconvenient schedules, but most of the time the trains are not going empty. Somebody pays the money for the tickets - whether it is a lot of people who can afford CRH once a year or a few people commuting 3-4 times a day, but there is a large number of people filling them.

Exactly in which month shall the new Guangzhou-Shenzhen high speed railway open, so that we can see what the loads and ticket sales actually are?


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## Restless (Oct 31, 2009)

Don't forget that wages in China have been increasing by about 18% per year.

So incomes should double in the next 4-5years.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

hkhui said:


> Not every project is meant to be profitable, hkskyline, though I'm not saying CRH won't be profitable in the long run.
> 
> It is hard to predict how people will travel in the future - but it is very possible that people in China can afford to travel more in the future.
> 
> ...


This is not only a question of profitability, but rather whether these projects are benefiting the masses. There is a significant percentage of the population who cannot afford to use the new facilities. We still see long lineups for the traditional slow trains despite a major CRH initiative over the past few years. Are they the beneficiaries of our progress?

While such constructions provide jobs, incomes, and promote environmentalism, the starting point should be what we should do to help the general populace. Right now we are doing a great job providing areas for the richer middle class and above to spend their money, but what about those who actually are pushing the buttons in the region's industrialization - the migrant workers making scraps? Would they be truly proud of the country when the benefits are only trickling down to them at an ever slow rate?

If infrastructure developments are meant to lift these people out of poverty, then great. But integration is a whole different story. There needs to be far more equitable distribution of income and even higher levels of average income in order to really connect the dots in the delta.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

chornedsnorkack said:


> Pearl River Delta already has the old Guangzhou-Shenzhen railway upgraded to 4 tracks throughout and 200 km/h express trains, and in this month opened a new high speed railway Guangzhou-Zhuhai, also 200 km/h. Guangzhou-Wuhan high sped railway, at 350 km/h, has been open for a year. In Yangtze Delta, both Shanghai-Nanjing high-speed railway and Shanghai-Hangzhou high speed railway opened in last year, and are 350 km/h.
> 
> People complain about high prices and inconvenient schedules, but most of the time the trains are not going empty. Somebody pays the money for the tickets - whether it is a lot of people who can afford CRH once a year or a few people commuting 3-4 times a day, but there is a large number of people filling them.
> 
> Exactly in which month shall the new Guangzhou-Shenzhen high speed railway open, so that we can see what the loads and ticket sales actually are?


So just because these trains are full means everyone across the demographic are benefiting? You can have a lot of rich people who ride the new trains while there can also be lot of poor people who cannot afford these trains - see Guangzhou station this holiday season.

Nobody has answered the question on whether people typically do commute using CRH on a regular basis when the factory workers live in-house. Is anyone trying to claim manufacturing is no longer the dominant economic activity in this region?


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## NCT (Aug 14, 2009)

The need for regional integration is simple - the growth of the tertiary sector means economic units are getting bigger. Though I can be highly critical of MOR's ticketing policies I believe theoretically in the medium term affordability can and probably will improve, as nominal wages rise and prices held constant. Looking at CRH in the Yangtze River Delta just business travel fills up most trains - the demand for managers visiting other factories, suppliers and clients etc is already huge. Also people are living further apart from each other. Gone will be the days when your grand parents, aunts and uncles and in-laws all live within walking distances of each other. There will be increasing demand for weekend trips to the next town.


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## Chrissib (Feb 9, 2008)

hkskyline said:


> Regional integration is not going to work with the CRH expansion. The delta is primarily a manufacturing region, with lots of factories that produce all sorts of consumer goods for export. These factories attract migrant workers from the countryside and other provinces. It's typical practice here for factories to offer on-site housing to their workers. Hence, people don't commute to begin with, so what is the likelihood of someone living in, say, Shenzhen, taking a train to Dongguan?
> 
> Besides, the CRH is a very expensive way to travel for the average factory worker. Shenzhen to Guangzhou East costs 80 yuan for second class. These workers make a few thousand a month if lucky. How can they sustain a commuting cost of 80*2*20 yuan a month?


I think this will change alongside China's development. People's housing demands will rise with their rising wages. The wages have just started to rise very quickly, so I don't see that it's wrong to prepare the PRD for the future in 10 or 20 years. After all, it will be the largest metropolitan area just ahead of Tokyo, so they need the best transport-systems available.


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## hkhui (Feb 28, 2010)

hkskyline said:


> This is not only a question of profitability, but rather whether these projects are benefiting the masses. There is a significant percentage of the population who cannot afford to use the new facilities. We still see long lineups for the traditional slow trains despite a major CRH initiative over the past few years. Are they the beneficiaries of our progress?
> 
> While such constructions provide jobs, incomes, and promote environmentalism, the starting point should be what we should do to help the general populace. Right now we are doing a great job providing areas for the richer middle class and above to spend their money, but what about those who actually are pushing the buttons in the region's industrialization - the migrant workers making scraps? Would they be truly proud of the country when the benefits are only trickling down to them at an ever slow rate?
> 
> If infrastructure developments are meant to lift these people out of poverty, then great. But integration is a whole different story. There needs to be far more equitable distribution of income and even higher levels of average income in order to really connect the dots in the delta.


Again, you're thinking in the short run. 

It is not realistic to raise the living standards for everybody at the same time. People would not have the incentives to work as hard. Sorry, that is how the world is. We are egoistic. When we ourselves are rich, then we can think about other people. The developed, Western world has experienced what China is going through now. Cheap labour, few rights for the workers, land-grabbing by corporates/government etc. People like to criticise China for being inhumane, well I believe that China simply is in a different stage of development, hard, but necessary and pragmatic. 

Compare it to China's economic policies in the past and present.

Until now, China has accumulated a certain degree of wealth by pursuing the "economic growth at all costs" policy. It did not benefit to all of Chinese, but it is a pragmatic policy. Now, they are implementing the "inclusive growth" policy in the next five-year-plan. 

There are few things other than infrastructure that really "benefit the masses". Education maybe? Schools? I admit that I do not know enough about the education and schooling in China, but let's say a village in the countryside. The people there get an excellent education. Now what? They still have to farm.

By improving the infrastructure, it would increase the tourism and transportation, giving these people other jobs as agriculture is mechanised. 

Compared to China's size and population, I don't think there is a significant overinvestment in infrastructure. Diversification, especially in China's case, is good. I believe that trains can run in most situations cars and planes cannot. What is the economic loss when planes cannot fly because of bad weather? Or traffic jam? Traffic accidents because of ice and snow? 

E.g, last year, northern Europe was hit by the ashes of a volcano in Iceland. The economic losses were huge. 

If you were in Beijing, what would you have done to "improve the general populace"? 

I think they have a pretty good plan right now. One thing is what is theoretically best, another is what is realistic.


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## The Cebuano Exultor (Aug 1, 2005)

*@ VECTROTALENZIS*

^^ Nope.

The most realistic number would be around 39-40 million.

The 44-45 million people statistic is derived when you consider the entire National Capital Region as one urban area, which it isn't.

Basically, the population of the urbanized area of Japan's National Capital Region, the Greater Tokyo Area, is only (but still impressive) 39-40 million.

Meanwhile, this south Chinese urban monster known as the Pearl River Delta Region is home to 50 million people.

However, it currently possesses the distinction not as a single urban area but as a compact congregation of urban areas like a megalopolis.

So, the most appropriate comparisons can only be with other megapolii like: the BosWash Northeast Megalopolis, Tokaido-Rail Corridor, the Blue Banana Megalopolis, and the Yangtze River Delta.

In this respect, the Blue Banana currently wipes the floor.


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## Chrissib (Feb 9, 2008)

The Cebuano Exultor said:


> ^^ Nope.
> 
> The most realistic number would be around 39-40 million.
> 
> ...


Right. But with the current trends, the Pearl River Delta will grow to a single metropolitan area and the whole Chinese coast will grow into a megalopolis with 600 million people. The coastal strip from the PRD to Shanghai has fast growing cities like Huizhou, Xiamen, Wenzhou, Hangzhou, Ningbo and Fuzhou. The plains between the Yangtze-Delta and Beijing are also developing very good, it's the most populated area of China. The plains may not have many big cities, but it has a very dense network of villages and towns.


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## jacks (Aug 4, 2005)

The coast south of Shanghai to Hong Kong is very mountainous and the cities south of Ningbo have no real possibility of joining up. They are all quite a long way apart. 
Shanghai-Suzhou-Wuxi-Changzhou are already pretty well joined up and could conceivably eventually form a hyper-city from Ningbo to Nanjing.
Even China doesn't have enough people for the plains from the Yangtze to Beijing to become one urban strip though you are right about how densely populated they are for what is supposed to be a mainly rural area.
My guess is that a greater shanghai will become the world's largest metropolis during the next 50 years or so with around 100million people from Changzhou to Hangzhou. A 'blue banana' type region would be much bigger still, from Ningbo to beyond Nanjing. 
If it's ever overtaken it will be by some future Bengal-Bangladesh merging of urban regions. Nowhere else in the world has such population density over such a large area.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

NCT said:


> It takes a generation for incomes to rise, yes, but it also takes a generation to have all the infrastructure in place. The wider point is that the PRD is moving away from just being a manufacturing hub, just look at the tertiary developments at Tianhe and Futian and spreading everywhere in the region, and *it's this shift to services that requires the integration*. 20 years is what took Shanghai to transform, so I really don't see any problem with the PRD starting to develop its transport network now.


Actually, the financial services reform in the PRD has not been successful given the capital controls in place. If money cannot freely flow into and out of the country, the prospects of financial services development would be extremely limited. Hence, the delta is still heavily reliant on manufacturing. Services actually don't need the road and rail infrastructure to export - it's the manufacturing sector that needs it.

That being said, not being able to accomodate the average worker's infrastructure needs (ie. affordable railways) would be a far bigger roadblock to any future integration. With CRH coming online and existing rails being converted to rail corridors, how will the average person travel in the future?


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

chornedsnorkack said:


> A big part of the Chinese economic reforms was opening China for foreign investors. Legal barriers for foreign investment were lowered and factories built where Chinese workers got higher wages.
> 
> It does not mean average Chinese workers were integrated into foreign countries. They still cannot afford tickets abroad, and if they could would be refused visas even to Hong Kong.
> 
> ...


Factory owners will still build factories if there are infrastructure links to get the exports out. CRH is not so crucial to them. The PRD never had any HSR when the manufacturing sector started taking off in the 80s/90s, yet it was able to flourish because the government invested in regular infrastructure, such as ports. CRH alone is not going to prohibit the factories from moving inland. Cargo can move along existing rail lines and on trucks. Perhaps building a CRH can add cargo rail capacity, but CRH is not necessarily the only solution - ie. build more freight rail lines.

While the wealth effect for the lower and working classes is not 0 or negative, they are not getting a big share either. It's an exponential curve gone the other way for them. Without being able to appease the average person's needs, it's a recipe for social unrest, no matter how many CRH trains run through their backyards.


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## NCT (Aug 14, 2009)

hkskyline said:


> Actually, the financial services reform in the PRD has not been successful given the capital controls in place. If money cannot freely flow into and out of the country, the prospects of financial services development would be extremely limited. Hence, the delta is still heavily reliant on manufacturing. Services actually don't need the road and rail infrastructure to export - it's the manufacturing sector that needs it.


China is gradually easing captical control all the time, and given the sheer population and economic growth of the region there is huge potential for domestic financial and other services even with capital controls. You've also got to consider sales networks, accountancy, legal and consultancy and a whole host of others, all of which are developing rapidly. Services place the biggest demand on travel as commuting distances are often larger and business demand is huge. Capacity on classic lines is then released for freight. Simples.



> That being said, not being able to accomodate the average worker's infrastructure needs (ie. affordable railways) would be a far bigger roadblock to any future integration. With CRH coming online and existing rails being converted to rail corridors, how will the average person travel in the future?


With respect, manufacturing does not create big demands on passenger transport, though the commuting network will be affordable for the average person. You can find 30 shoemakers in the village down the road easily but you can only find 1 Mozart in one city, that's why the higher up the foodchain the higher requirement for urbanity and transport links.

Intercity + suburban networks are a done thing in all major metropolis, and I really don't understand why you are so against this for PDR.


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## Restless (Oct 31, 2009)

The point is that existing lines are overloaded and inefficiently utilised because they have to handle a mix of slow freight trains and fast passenger trains.

Plus road transportation is prohibitively expensive over longer distances.

As for building additional slow tracks instead of HSR, they did look at the cost-benefit calculation, but went with HSR in many cases.

The issue with the HSR network is that the original plan was to steadily build from 2008-2020. However, they actually will have completed most lines by 2013.

This has a big impact as people were expected to be earning 3x as much as they are today, but they are still using the same pricing models.




hkskyline said:


> Factory owners will still build factories if there are infrastructure links to get the exports out. CRH is not so crucial to them. The PRD never had any HSR when the manufacturing sector started taking off in the 80s/90s, yet it was able to flourish because the government invested in regular infrastructure, such as ports. CRH alone is not going to prohibit the factories from moving inland. Cargo can move along existing rail lines and on trucks. Perhaps building a CRH can add cargo rail capacity, but CRH is not necessarily the only solution - ie. build more freight rail lines.
> 
> While the wealth effect for the lower and working classes is not 0 or negative, they are not getting a big share either. It's an exponential curve gone the other way for them. Without being able to appease the average person's needs, it's a recipe for social unrest, no matter how many CRH trains run through their backyards.


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

The Cebuano Exultor said:


> The 44-45 million people statistic is derived when you consider the entire National Capital Region as one urban area, which it isn't.
> 
> Basically, the population of the urbanized area of Japan's National Capital Region, the Greater Tokyo Area, is only (but still impressive) 39-40 million.
> 
> Meanwhile, this south Chinese urban monster known as the Pearl River Delta Region is home to 50 million people.


More like 40 million.


The Cebuano Exultor said:


> However, it currently possesses the distinction not as a single urban area but as a compact congregation of urban areas like a megalopolis.
> 
> So, the most appropriate comparisons can only be with other megapolii like: the BosWash Northeast Megalopolis, Tokaido-Rail Corridor, the Blue Banana Megalopolis, and the Yangtze River Delta.
> 
> In this respect, the Blue Banana currently wipes the floor.


How so?

Comparing Pearl River against Tokaido corridor: Tokyo is merged with Kawasaki and Yokohama, but Yokohama is mere 25 km from Tokyo. Beyond Yokohama, Odawara 77 km from Tokyo is a minor city and there are no major centres between Yokohama and Odawara, so Odawara is also well separated and ditto about cities like Shizuoka. Nagoya is about 170 km from Osaka, and Osaka is well connected to Kyoto - but Kyoto is just 40 km from Osaka, and the 130 km or so between Kyoto and Nagoya seems not so densely settled.
Compare with the 150 km between Guangzhou and Shenzhen, which is filled with continuous Dongguan - far bigger and more populous than Kawasaki.

A continuous and connected region is Ruhr, with a string of big centres between Bonn and Dortmund. But how does the total population of Ruhr compare against Pearl River?


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## Restless (Oct 31, 2009)

If I look at them in terms of distance, this is what I see:

Blue Banana: 1200km from Liverpool to Milan

I'd say that the Blue Banana is more comparable to the route between Shanghai-Beijing which is about 1100km apart.

I think the others are more similar in the way they function

BosWash: 600km from Boston to Washington
Tokaido: 400km from Tokyo to Osaka
Yangtze River Delta: 300km from Shanghai to Nanjing
Pearl River Delta: 130km from Guangzhou to Hong Kong








The Cebuano Exultor said:


> ^^ Nope.
> 
> The most realistic number would be around 39-40 million.
> 
> ...


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

Restless said:


> The point is that existing lines are overloaded and inefficiently utilised because they have to handle a mix of slow freight trains and fast passenger trains.
> 
> Plus road transportation is prohibitively expensive over longer distances.
> 
> ...


So what are they now planning to do in 2013-2020?
Nothing, and pocket the ticket profits?
Build the additional slow tracks?
Build more HSRs not originally planned for 2013...2020?
Both?


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## Restless (Oct 31, 2009)

chornedsnorkack said:


> So what are they now planning to do in 2013-2020?
> Nothing, and pocket the ticket profits?
> Build the additional slow tracks?
> Build more HSRs not originally planned for 2013...2020?
> Both?


They're probably going to have to live with larger operating losses on the HSR for a longer period of time - than was original planned. The plan was for the additional freight to generate enough profits to offset the loss.

Personally I think they should adopt flexible ticket pricing by day/time, so they can generate demand across all the trains. As most railway costs are fixed, this results in the maximum revenue and most passengers.

===

A single HSR line with a existing parallel track should have enough capacity for all the long-distance freight and passengers. Then there are the provincial intercity lines for short-distance city clusters.

===

As for after 2013, HSR lines will continue to be built but at a much slower pace. Construction of low speed (120-200km/h) lines looks like it will still be going strong after 2013.

However, there will be a lot of idle HSR capacity, so they'll be looking to export markets.


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

Restless said:


> A single HSR line with a existing parallel track should have enough capacity for all the long-distance freight and passengers. Then there are the provincial intercity lines for short-distance city clusters.


Look at Tokaido.
They built Tokaido Shinkansen as alternative to quadruple tracking Tokaido mainline. Not enough!

Tokaido Shinkansen is full. The trains are at short headways and Japan is afraid to allow any trains other than 1323 seats. Tokaido Shinkansen is by design shut down each night for maintenance, unlike Tokaido Main Line preventing high speed sleepers like Aomori-Kagoshima, and the speed is still limited to 270 km/h. Japan is planning Chuo Shinkansen, but it shall only open Tokyo-Nagoya in 2027 and Nagoya-Osaka in 2045. Even after 2045, no smooth connection from Chuo Shinkansen to Sanyo or Tohoku.

And the Tokaido Main Line is electrified but still just 2 tracks. With 130 km/h passenger trains filling the line at frequencies like 13 trains per hour Tokyo-Odawara, does it manage to carry large amounts of freight?


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## The Cebuano Exultor (Aug 1, 2005)

*@ chornedsnorkack*



chornedsnorkack said:


> More like 40 million.
> 
> 
> How so?
> ...


^^ Nope. The 40 million statistics is a gross underestimate. If one includes the huge floating migrant population, it would reach 50 million.

The distinction between what makes an area a single metropolis as opposed to a megalopolis isn't the population or built-up density. Rather, it is how generally observed inter-city commuting is.

Currently, the Pearl River Delta Region doesn't function like the Greater Tokyo Area does. Most people around the Greater Tokyo Area generally commute around the Kanto region on an almost daily basis. Meanwhile, the cities around the Pearl River Delta act as separate entities with the majority of each city's commuters not leaving the confines of their respective borders.

Obviously, they have merged physically quite densely enough already. However, they still function as separate metropolitan entities. Of course, this would change in the near future.

Functionally, the cities of the Pearl River Delta relate to one another as a megalopolis because their respective populations generally do not commute fluidly enough like it does in a single census designated area despite their relative proximity and density.

Physically, there are far larger dense regions on Earth, albeit generally rural in nature. The Chinese plain is one. The Bengal plain is another.


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## Chrissib (Feb 9, 2008)

jacks said:


> The coast south of Shanghai to Hong Kong is very mountainous and the cities south of Ningbo have no real possibility of joining up. They are all quite a long way apart.
> Shanghai-Suzhou-Wuxi-Changzhou are already pretty well joined up and could conceivably eventually form a hyper-city from Ningbo to Nanjing.
> Even China doesn't have enough people for the plains from the Yangtze to Beijing to become one urban strip though you are right about how densely populated they are for what is supposed to be a mainly rural area.


The people are already there, what it still needs are HSR, motorways, expressways and other roads so that the cities are better connected, like it's the case in the Blue Banana. . In fact, the corridor I mentioned has a greater population density than the Blue Banana or Boswash. 

Megalopolis isn't about cities joining but it's an area of very high population density with an above-average economy and a very dense network of transport-infrastructure. After all, the Blue Banana also goes through the Swiss Alps and the Tokaido-Belt covers mountain ranges. The Chinese mega region will develop, I'm sure about it. Time will tell. Central Europe had a similar GDP/Capita like China now has in 1910. The Blue Banana had much worse connected cities then than Chinese coastal cities have now. Give it 20-30 years time, then you'll see the Megalopolis.


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

The Cebuano Exultor said:


> Meanwhile, the cities around the Pearl River Delta act as separate entities with the majority of each city's commuters not leaving the confines of their respective borders.
> 
> Obviously, they have merged physically quite densely enough already. However, they still function as separate metropolitan entities.


Which, if any, of them function as metropolitan entities?

The densely settled parts of Dongguan are spread over a long coastal strip, with bigger concentrations of the 4 subdistricts of "Dongguan centre" near one end - right over river from Guangzhou - and the biggest towns in China, Changgan and Humen, in the other end, also over river from Guangzhou and close to Shenzhen border. I am not quite sure whether Changan has more people commuting to "Dongguan centre" or across the borders to Shenzhen. 
A bit like New Jersey which also is not very much of a metropolis because one densely settled part (Bayonne etc.) is right over river from New York city and another densely settled part (Trenton) is next to border with another city (Philadelphia).


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## Restless (Oct 31, 2009)

When I referred to "provincial intercity lines" in China, each one would be the a shorter equivalent of a Tokaido Shinkansen.

So if you look at Beijing-Tianjin, Shanghai-Nanjing, Shenzhen-Guangzhou:

1. There is a 350km/h HSR line mainly for long-distance journeys >500km
2. There is a provincial intercity line (normally 200-250km/h) for short journeys <500km
3. There is the original track (<200km/h) which is now focused on freight traffic.
NB. It is straightforward to increase freight capacity by making trains longer, as long as you don't have passenger trains that need to run to timetables. Just look at the Daqin line which was upgraded to handle 430million tonnes of freight instead of 100million.





chornedsnorkack said:


> Look at Tokaido.
> They built Tokaido Shinkansen as alternative to quadruple tracking Tokaido mainline. Not enough!
> 
> Tokaido Shinkansen is full. The trains are at short headways and Japan is afraid to allow any trains other than 1323 seats. Tokaido Shinkansen is by design shut down each night for maintenance, unlike Tokaido Main Line preventing high speed sleepers like Aomori-Kagoshima, and the speed is still limited to 270 km/h. Japan is planning Chuo Shinkansen, but it shall only open Tokyo-Nagoya in 2027 and Nagoya-Osaka in 2045. Even after 2045, no smooth connection from Chuo Shinkansen to Sanyo or Tohoku.
> ...


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

Restless said:


> When I referred to "provincial intercity lines" in China, each one would be the a shorter equivalent of a Tokaido Shinkansen.
> 
> So if you look at Beijing-Tianjin, Shanghai-Nanjing, Shenzhen-Guangzhou:
> 
> ...


Beijing-Tianjin:
3. original track exists
2. there is a 120 km line - but it is 350 km/h, not 200-250 km/h
1. 380 km/h HSR due to open in June
Shanghai-Nanjing:
3. original track exists
2. there is a 294 km line - but again 350 km/h, not 200-250 km/h.
1. 380 km/h HSR due to open in June
Shenzhen-Guangzhou:
3. original track exists
1 or 2. a 350 km/h railway is under construction. Just one, for now.


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## Restless (Oct 31, 2009)

chornedsnorkack said:


> Beijing-Tianjin:
> 3. original track exists
> 2. there is a 120 km line - but it is 350 km/h, not 200-250 km/h
> 1. 380 km/h HSR due to open in June
> ...


The Beijing-Tianjin 350km/h line was originally 250km/h in the plan. However, it got upgraded to 350km/h for the Olympics.

The Shanghai-Nanjing 350km/h again was originally planned to 250km/h.

The 380km/h Shanghai-Beijing alignment was originally going to be 300km/h, then it became 350km/h, and now it's listed as 380km/h. I'd expect most of it to still run at 350km/h,

===

The existing Shenzhen-Guangzhou tracks have 2x 220km/h tracks and 2x slow freight tracks already


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## Scion (Apr 26, 2008)

The region in question is not as big as the media reports

These are the areas that are being looked into


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## Scion (Apr 26, 2008)

Read more about the PRD Megalopolis development here

Chinese http://www.prdbay.com/home.asp
English http://www.prdbay.com/en/home.asp


You can also download the plans and studies pdf (Chinese + English)

http://www.prdbay.com/en/xgwj.asp

Below are some excrepts for TL;DD


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## Scion (Apr 26, 2008)




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## Scion (Apr 26, 2008)




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## Scion (Apr 26, 2008)




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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

Scion said:


> The region in question is not as big as the media reports
> 
> These are the areas that are being looked into


So, not even whole Shenzhen?


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## bayviews (Mar 3, 2006)

the spliff fairy said:


>


Interesting, but...

Does China really need another megagacity, 

Isn't Chongqing big enough? 

Has something like, what 35 million people?


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## VECTROTALENZIS (Jul 10, 2010)

I wouldn't want to live in a dense megalopolis with 100 million people...:nuts:


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

bayviews said:


> Interesting, but...
> 
> Does China really need another megagacity,
> 
> ...


It isn't an artificial creation, these megacities have formed anyway due to the huge amount of people who have moved there from the countryside, many of whom are 'illegal' without a residency permit. The councils since 2003 have been forced to recognise these 'floating' populations as they account for tens of millions of citizens.

The only thing the govt has done is try and integrate the different infrastructures into one city - even though they deny they have created a single entity, if you look on Google Earth about 30 million+ of them are contiguous already.

This Pearl River Delta (and Yangtze) differs from the Chongqing Municipality as Chongqing is far more spread out and not contiguous, covering an area the size of Belgium with several disparate, unconnected cities in them.


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## Scion (Apr 26, 2008)

chornedsnorkack said:


> So, not even whole Shenzhen?


Yep, only Futian, Nanshan and Bao'an are included. Surprisingly they left out Luohu, even though Luohu is the densest part of the city


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

Scion said:


> Yep, only Futian, Nanshan and Bao'an are included. Surprisingly they left out Luohu, even though Luohu is the densest part of the city


And I suspect Luohu is already somewhat integrated with Futian.

What are they going to do to disintegrate Luohu from Futian?


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