# Welcome to East St. Louis



## Joop20 (Jun 29, 2004)

cheesy bob said:


> when a lot of people get the boot of rule taken off of them fairly abruptly many of them cannot handle it and from there it just kind of evolved into a culture of crime in the urban areas
> 
> and its not a manufacturing society any more its a high tech economy where education is required to get decent jobs


You gotta be kidding mate. Tell all those blue collar workers in the that manufacturing doesn't matter anymore in the USA. 

And your reasoning with the boot of rule sucks, ghettos also emerged in areas of the USA where there were equal rights before the civil rights movement.

It's pretty common for people to resort to crime when they're in a situation where they have no money, no chance on a proper education, no chance on a job and basically no future prospects, whether you like it or not. Linking it to equal rights is just silly.


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## hedlunch (Feb 11, 2006)

"when a lot of people get the boot of rule taken off of them fairly abruptly many of them cannot handle it and from there it just kind of evolved into a culture of crime in the urban areas"

Historically, blacks were imported by the train load from the south to midwest industrial centers by wealthy industrialists to break strikes and generally interfere with what was at the time a very racist labor movement. This lead to resentments by both black and white populations that continue to this day. One of the uglyiest results of this and one of the worst moments in american history were the East St. Louis riots of 1917 where blacks were hung up on lamposts in downtown East St. Louis, pulled from cars and trolleys and beaten to death in the streets by mobs of whites. 

http://www.exodusnews.com/HISTORY/History010.htm

Similar riots happened in Chicago and other industrial cities during the same period.

After being used as pawns in the labor struggle for decades by white industrialists, black workers were laid off in mass when industry modernised and relocated 70s and on. 

This is a very important fact of american history and it helps explain the current state of affairs in East St. Louis and Detroit. To say that the civil rites movement was somehow to blame for the sorry state of these cities is a really twisted(sick even) take on history.


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## Joop20 (Jun 29, 2004)

hedlunch said:


> "when a lot of people get the boot of rule taken off of them fairly abruptly many of them cannot handle it and from there it just kind of evolved into a culture of crime in the urban areas"
> 
> Historically, blacks were imported by the train load from the south to midwest industrial centers by wealthy industrialists to break strikes and generally interfere with what was at the time a very racist labor movement. This lead to resentments by both black and white populations that continue to this day. One of the uglyiest results of this and one of the worst moments in american history were the East St. Louis riots of 1917 where blacks were hung up on lamposts in downtown East St. Louis, pulled from cars and trolleys and beaten to death in the streets by mobs of whites.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more!


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## Uncle Phil (Nov 24, 2007)

Jobs have nothing to do with crime. Culture does. Go all around the world to places in India, Africa, the Middle East, and elsewhere in Asia. You will never see the outrageous kinds of crime you see in America. We are a violent society, plain and simple.


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## CrazyCanuck (Oct 9, 2004)

That's sad.


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## bobbycuzin (May 30, 2007)

Uncle Phil said:


> Jobs have nothing to do with crime. Culture does. Go all around the world to places in India, Africa, the Middle East, and elsewhere in Asia. You will never see the outrageous kinds of crime you see in America. We are a violent society, plain and simple.


crime in america is heavily linked to the illegal drug trade, that has more to do with profits/resources than culture

and you can find plenty of places in asia and africa that have worse crime than the US (many also related to drugs or illegal trade), culture is far from the defining factor


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## Uncle Phil (Nov 24, 2007)

bobbycuzin said:


> crime in america is heavily linked to the illegal drug trade, that has more to do with profits/resources than culture
> 
> and you can find plenty of places in asia and africa that have worse crime than the US (many also related to drugs or illegal trade), culture is far from the defining factor


Some do, some dont. Most poverty stricken places across the globe do not have the outrageous violence we have in America. 

Jobs are available to any man, black or white, poor or rich, in America. It is culture because these people grow up in a society that does not value education, the law, or the family. Anyone of these people can easily find work. That is if they can manage a H.S. degree from a free, public high school. Oh, thats right...

Grad.Rate City

*21.7 *Detroit (Most Dangerous City in America, lowest unemployment rate) 
38.5 Baltimore City, Md. 
38.9 New York City 
43.1 Milwaukee 
43.8 Cleveland 
44.2 Los Angeles 
45.3 Miami-Dade County, Fla. 
46.3 Dallas 
46.5 Pinellas County, Fla. 
46.8 Denver 
48.5 Memphis 
48.7 Broward County, Fla. 
48.9 Fort Worth 
48.9 Houston 
50.4 Nashville 
52.0 Albuquerque 
52.2 Chicago 
53.7 New Orleans


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## PhilippeMtl (Aug 17, 2005)

I can feel the magic


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## Joop20 (Jun 29, 2004)

Uncle Phil said:


> Some do, some dont. Most poverty stricken places across the globe do not have the outrageous violence we have in America. It's common around the world that crime rises when people have no job, hence the existence of ghettos.
> 
> Jobs are available to any man, black or white, poor or rich, in America. It is culture because these people grow up in a society that does not value education, the law, or the family. Anyone of these people can easily find work. That is if they can manage a H.S. degree from a free, public high school. Oh, thats right...
> 
> ...


What makes you think that people in poor countries don't have jobs? I bet most of them work their ass off to get a living.

How would you value education if your school is in an absolute state of disrepair, rats are running around in your classroom, and there's no heating during the winter, as is the case in East St. Louis? And how are these people supposed to find work, if there is no work in their city? They can't more to another city either, because their property has no value. Oh yeah, they probably won't have a health insurance either, like those other 50 or so million Americans that are not insured because they can't afford it. 

Although you may like to believe that the US is the country of unlimited opportunities, sad truth is that it isn't for a large part of your population. Studies have actually shown that poor people in Europe have better chances of making it in society than in the US.


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## bobbycuzin (May 30, 2007)

Uncle Phil said:


> Some do, some dont. Most poverty stricken places across the globe do not have the outrageous violence we have in America.
> 
> Jobs are available to any man, black or white, poor or rich, in America. It is culture because these people grow up in a society that does not value education, the law, or the family. Anyone of these people can easily find work. That is if they can manage a H.S. degree from a free, public high school. Oh, thats right...


uh, you can find murder rates all over the world higher than the US, culture has very little to do with the violence...it's almost ALWAYS after money and resources, including here in the US with the drug trade and black market activities

murders per capita:
#1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people 
#2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people 
#3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people 
#4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people 
#5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people 
#6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people 
#7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people 
#8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people 
#9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people 
#10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people 
#11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people 
#12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people 
#13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people 
#14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people 
#15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people 
#16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people 
#17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people 
#18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people 
#19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people 
#20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people 
#21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people 
#22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people 
#23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people 
#24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people

SOURCE: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita



Uncle Phil said:


> Jobs have nothing to do with crime. Culture does. Go all around the world to places in India, Africa, the Middle East, and elsewhere in Asia. You will never see the outrageous kinds of crime you see in America. We are a violent society, plain and simple.


^^ what a joke


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## cheesy bob (Jan 14, 2007)

Uncle Phil said:


> Some do, some dont. Most poverty stricken places across the globe do not have the outrageous violence we have in America.
> 
> Jobs are available to any man, black or white, poor or rich, in America. It is culture because these people grow up in a society that does not value education, the law, or the family. Anyone of these people can easily find work. That is if they can manage a H.S. degree from a free, public high school. Oh, thats right...
> 
> ...


this society does value education EVERYONE who drops out makes their own choice to drop out and EVERY child in the country has free education available to them


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## hoosier (Apr 11, 2007)

cheesy bob said:


> this society does value education EVERYONE who drops out makes their own choice to drop out and EVERY child in the country has free education available to them


Uh, no education is NOT free. School supplies, textbooks, etc. 

And when the school is in a state of disrepair and cannot provide basic services to the student that sends a message that society is not interested in educating them. Such is the case in East St. Louis. Go rad "Savage Inequalities" to get a graphic description of the state of ESTL's schools. Raw sewage leaking and crumbling walls for starters.

You are living in fucking La-La land.


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## Joop20 (Jun 29, 2004)

cheesy bob said:


> this society does value education EVERYONE who drops out makes their own choice to drop out and EVERY child in the country has free education available to them


Get a reality check mate.


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## milwaukee-københavn (Jun 21, 2006)

Interesting place. 

Part of the reason for East St. Louis's demise was the lack of an industrial tax base. All of the biggest industries of the region (Monsato, hazardous waste plants, copper plants, etc) incorporated outside of the city of East St. Louis so that they would not have to pay taxes or conform to environmental controls (this was back when cities controlled environmental regulations) which would have made their businesses less profitable. The most rediculous part of all of this, is that the city is downwind from all of the factories and in the same flood plain, meaning that all of their pollution goes into the city. The entire city is so polluted that large scale redevelopment would be dangerous without serious changes at the factories that provide the few jobs left in the area. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauget,_Illinois
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Third_World_US/SI_Kozol_StLouis.html

Another interesting fact:


> In 1990, the deed to East St. Louis City Hall was awarded to Walter DeBow, a resident who suffered brain damage at the hands of a fellow inmate in the city jail and won a $3.4 million lawsuit award against the city in 1985. When the city couldn't pay, St. Clair County Judge Roger Scrivner awarded DeBow the deed to City Hall. The city got it back years later.


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## sumisu (Apr 29, 2006)

Wow, how you guys keep up with Morgue production??? suicide rates must be astronomical...


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## SCL (May 19, 2005)

I went to college in St. Louis. All I can say is that, hands down, East St. Louis is THE shittiest place I have ever seen in person.


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

My theory on crime in the US has a lot to do with our TV culture.


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## Brisbaner21 (Jul 17, 2007)

Uncle Phil said:


> Some do, some dont. Most poverty stricken places across the globe do not have the outrageous violence we have in America.
> 
> Jobs are available to any man, black or white, poor or rich, in America. It is culture because these people grow up in a society that does not value education, the law, or the family. Anyone of these people can easily find work. That is if they can manage a H.S. degree from a free, public high school. Oh, thats right...
> 
> ...



Doesn't Detroit have the highest unemployment rate in the U.S.?


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## wc eend (Sep 16, 2002)

Robert Kaplan has paid a lot of attention to East St. Louis in one of his books on American society. Very interesting.


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## Uncle Phil (Nov 24, 2007)

Joop20 said:


> What makes you think that people in poor countries don't have jobs? I bet most of them work their ass off to get a living.
> 
> How would you value education if your school is in an absolute state of disrepair, rats are running around in your classroom, and there's no heating during the winter, as is the case in East St. Louis? And how are these people supposed to find work, if there is no work in their city? They can't more to another city either, because their property has no value. Oh yeah, they probably won't have a health insurance either, like those other 50 or so million Americans that are not insured because they can't afford it.
> 
> Although you may like to believe that the US is the country of unlimited opportunities, sad truth is that it isn't for a large part of your population. Studies have actually shown that poor people in Europe have better chances of making it in society than in the US.


there are no rats running around these schools. Major public school systems are heavily funded. Dont make excuses for these people. Value in education and an actual school building have nothing to do with each other. 

America is a country of unlimited opportunities. How can you say its not? Who is to blame for people not graduating high school? Shit, who is to blame for not even going to school in the first place. Again, stop making excuses. 

And dont bring up Europe. It has nothing to do with this. Our problems are a far cry from anything there.


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## Uncle Phil (Nov 24, 2007)

bobbycuzin said:


> uh, you can find murder rates all over the world higher than the US, culture has very little to do with the violence...it's almost ALWAYS after money and resources, including here in the US with the drug trade and black market activities
> 
> murders per capita:
> #1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
> ...


what does that list prove? These top nations are all developing countries. Few countries on that list even would be considered "Third World". How much of that list is Eastern Europe? Where are all the dirt poor African, Middle Eastern, and Asian nations? All I see are developing economies, places that are home to the drug trade, and former Soviet states.


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## Uncle Phil (Nov 24, 2007)

hoosier said:


> Uh, no education is NOT free. School supplies, textbooks, etc.
> 
> And when the school is in a state of disrepair and cannot provide basic services to the student that sends a message that society is not interested in educating them. Such is the case in East St. Louis. Go rad "Savage Inequalities" to get a graphic description of the state of ESTL's schools. Raw sewage leaking and crumbling walls for starters.
> 
> You are living in fucking La-La land.


Look at my list of lowest graduation rates again. Are you trying to tell me that New York City, Milwaukee, Detroit, Cleveland, Baltimore, L.A., and Miami have school systems that are not getting a huge chunk of money? 12 grand is spent per capita on students in Detroit. New York tops the list with spending 15 K per student. Milwaukee has a yearly budget over 1 billion dollars. 

And since when are text books not free? And how expensive are school supplies? Most schools will help students out in that department if they are in need. You act as if our school system is on par with those in Central Africa or something.


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## Uncle Phil (Nov 24, 2007)

Brisbaner21 said:


> Doesn't Detroit have the highest unemployment rate in the U.S.?


yep. Think any of those other top five lowest graduation rate cities might be second? Right again. Milwaukee. Is it possible there is another city that might be on both lists? Yup, Cleveland.


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## hedlunch (Feb 11, 2006)

This is a reply to this comment and only about the data this comment refers to:
>>
"what does that list prove? These top nations are all developing countries. Few countries on that list even would be considered "Third World". How much of that list is Eastern Europe? Where are all the dirt poor African, Middle Eastern, and Asian nations? All I see are developing economies, places that are home to the drug trade, and former Soviet states."
<<

The list of murder rate stats comes from this page as indicated:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

These statistics do not include many contries and do not include almost all of africa, or other third world countries like Haiti, Iraq, Afganistan or Burma as is indicated by this map from the same page:

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita&b_map=1

The reason is that reliable statistics are not available for those countries. And if statistics were available I would not think they were meaningfull unless they included murder commited governments or militaries. 

I would rather be living in East St. Louis right now than Bagdad(just one of many possible examples). Personally.


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## Uncle Phil (Nov 24, 2007)

Those lists dont prove anything. There are numerous, much poorer nations that have lower murder rates then the U.S. 

Most murders in the U.S. stem from arguments and disagreements. Yes, this is one of the most violent nations on earth. No doubt about it. There is simply no reason for people to be forced to sell drugs and rob people. Not when you offer free education and are by far the worlds greatest economy.


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## globill (Dec 4, 2005)

Uncle Phil said:


> And don't bring up Europe. It has nothing to do with this. Our problems are a far cry from anything there.


Well, roving gangs of rioting African and Arab youths are shooting at French police as we type. 

And when you say "our" , are you talking about Iowa or inner city Detroit? America is in many places as safe as almost anywhere on Earth. In otheres, it's as dangerous as anyplace.

Nevada's murder rate is 9 times that as New Hampshire.


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## Uncle Phil (Nov 24, 2007)

globill said:


> Well, roving gangs of rioting African and Arab youths are shooting at French police as we type.
> 
> And when you say "our" , are you talking about Iowa or inner city Detroit? America is in many places as safe as almost anywhere on Earth. In otheres, it's as dangerous as anyplace.
> 
> Nevada's murder rate is 9 times that as New Hampshire.


Paris gets a break when it comes to crime, Ill admit that much. But Western Europe doesnt hold a candle to America when it comes to murder and decrepit cities. 

When I say our, Im talking about the population centers mainly. Your right, the majority of the U.S. is as safe as any place on the face of earth. Even in those places that love their guns and vote for Republicans. But, as most of America lives in urban centers, I tend to focus on those places. Our cities are terrible when it comes to violence.


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## illmatic774 (Jul 20, 2005)

Uncle Phil said:


> Some do, some dont. Most poverty stricken places across the globe do not have the outrageous violence we have in America.
> 
> Jobs are available to any man, black or white, poor or rich, in America. It is culture because these people grow up in a society that does not value education, the law, or the family. Anyone of these people can easily find work. That is if they can manage a H.S. degree from a free, public high school. Oh, thats right...
> 
> ...


LOL, that Detroit figure is ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT. This doesn't account for transfers to charters and other districts. It assumes that anybody incoming freshman that doesn't graduate from a DPS school is a dropout. The real graduation rate can be anywhere from 55-65 percent; still pretty bad, but not 21 fucking percent. 

Flawed data in every sense of the word, and i'm sure Detroit is not the only city (understatement) unfairly demonized by these "stats."


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## Joop20 (Jun 29, 2004)

Uncle Phil said:


> Not when you offer free education and are by far the worlds greatest economy.


The US is certainly the largest economy in the world, but the greatest, come on! The Bush government has totaly screwed government spending over the past 6 years, and you have the largest trade deficit ever! Economists generally agree that Americans are borrowing way too much money, and that the dollar will strongly devaluate over the next decade or so (be it through a dollar crash or through graduate devaluation). 

Take a look at the GINI index for income inequality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Poverty_59_to_05.png

Or at the poverty rates in your country:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gini_index_US_1967_to_2001.png


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## Joop20 (Jun 29, 2004)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2q3vqTiFHg


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## i_am_hydrogen (Dec 9, 2004)

Please, this is way off topic.


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## Joop20 (Jun 29, 2004)

i_am_hydrogen said:


> Please, this is way off topic.


Fair enough, but I can't stand some of the ignorant comments in this thread.


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## Chicagoago (Dec 2, 2005)

illmatic774 said:


> LOL, that Detroit figure is ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT. This doesn't account for transfers to charters and other districts. It assumes that anybody incoming freshman that doesn't graduate from a DPS school is a dropout. The real graduation rate can be anywhere from 55-65 percent; still pretty bad, but not 21 fucking percent.
> 
> Flawed data in every sense of the word, and i'm sure Detroit is not the only city (understatement) unfairly demonized by these "stats."


These are graduation rates for the Public Schools. MANY children in these cities go to Private Schools, and those rates are much higher.


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## Uncle Phil (Nov 24, 2007)

illmatic774 said:


> LOL, that Detroit figure is ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT. This doesn't account for transfers to charters and other districts. It assumes that anybody incoming freshman that doesn't graduate from a DPS school is a dropout. The real graduation rate can be anywhere from 55-65 percent; still pretty bad, but not 21 fucking percent.
> 
> Flawed data in every sense of the word, and i'm sure Detroit is not the only city (understatement) unfairly demonized by these "stats."


Oh please. Detroits graduation rate is nowhere near 70 percent. The Michigan government looks at its graduation rates in a different light to make the situation not look so bad. Almost every study I have read has said otherwise. 

Detroit has a serious, serious problem. As do most of the cities in the region.


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## Uncle Phil (Nov 24, 2007)

Joop20 said:


> The US is certainly the largest economy in the world, but the greatest, come on! The Bush government has totaly screwed government spending over the past 6 years, and you have the largest trade deficit ever! Economists generally agree that Americans are borrowing way too much money, and that the dollar will strongly devaluate over the next decade or so (be it through a dollar crash or through graduate devaluation).
> 
> Take a look at the GINI index for income inequality:
> 
> ...


Yes, despite Bush, we have the worlds greatest economy. End of story. Find me one other nation with a better one and that comes close to offering the kind of jobs and education? Find me one that isnt some 12 million person Euro-nation and compares to the U.S. in size.


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## Uncle Phil (Nov 24, 2007)

i_am_hydrogen said:


> Please, this is way off topic.


I agree. East Saint Louis is a hellhole because the people let it become a hellhole. There is no reason for this city to look like its a set for Escape from New York. Even in poor, undereducated cities, there still is life and vibrancy in the town center.


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## Stretch (Sep 9, 2007)

Some of the theories on this thread on why East St. Louis is in the poor condition it is are incredibly racist and/or ignorant. Anyone else notice?


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## bobbycuzin (May 30, 2007)

Uncle Phil said:


> what does that list prove? These top nations are all developing countries. Few countries on that list even would be considered "Third World". How much of that list is Eastern Europe? Where are all the dirt poor African, Middle Eastern, and Asian nations? All I see are developing economies, places that are home to the drug trade, and former Soviet states.


they prove your statement that i responded to was incorrect:



Uncle Phil said:


> Jobs have nothing to do with crime. Culture does. Go all around the world to places in India, Africa, the Middle East, and elsewhere in Asia. You will never see the outrageous kinds of crime you see in America.


you must be an idiot to think that people are killing each other because of our violent culture, the majority of homicides in the US are linked to the black market economy and drug trade...people are killing each other because of money and resources, which is the case in all countries with crime problems, has nothing to do with our culture

the drug trade in our country is a HUGE underground business, which is why so many people are involved in it, if we legalized drugs you'd see a large portion of our crime go away


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