# The Balkan beggar problem in your City ?



## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

My city with pop. 90.000 has never had any beggars on the streets until recently. Now after the Schengen agreement the Balkan beggars drive here in their cars which they live in. Begging is not illegal yet, so they sit on the streets with their cups looking miserable. Most people don't feel sorry for them because they know the handouts is a way for them to finance illegal activities, they also steal. But I don't mind if they play their harmonica entertaining on a busy shopping street.

Are these touring beggars common in your city ? Is begging legal there ? How do you solve the problem ?


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

I'm going to subscribe to this thread and I hope I'll see some breathtaking action on here before it gets deleted. You come out with some crap sometimes, but at least you got the balls to take on the entire Yugo mob on this forum...


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## bogdymol (Feb 4, 2010)

NordikNerd said:


> Now after the Schengen agreement the Balkan beggars drive here in their cars which they live in


Balkan map:










As you can see, only Greece + Slovenia (part of it) are both in the Balkans and in the Schengen area. I doubt you have beggers in your town from this 2 countries.


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## Adde (May 8, 2011)

NordikNerd said:


> My city with pop. 90.000 has never had any beggars on the streets until recently. Now after the Schengen agreement the Balkan beggars drive here in their cars which they live in. Begging is not illegal yet, so they sit on the streets with their cups looking miserable. Most people don't feel sorry for them because they know the handouts is a way for them to finance illegal activities, they also steal. But I don't mind if they play their harmonica entertaining on a busy shopping street.


Eh, did you miss the series of articles about this in DN that ran earlier this spring? 

Most of the beggars are Romani from Romania. They are incredibly poor, partly because of prejudice against Romani that makes it very hard for them to get jobs, so the money actually doesn't finance illegal activities, but rather food and medical care for their families back home.


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## bogdymol (Feb 4, 2010)

Adde said:


> *the money actually doesn't finance illegal activities, but rather food and medical care for their families back home.*


Yeah...

Now google "palate tiganesti" (gypsy palaces) in google images: https://www.google.ro/search?q=pala...14,d.bGE&fp=eede8bab1b139acf&biw=1366&bih=643


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

Adde said:


> Eh, did you miss the series of articles about this in DN that ran earlier this spring?
> 
> Most of the beggars are Romani from Romania. They are incredibly poor, partly because of prejudice against Romani that makes it very hard for them to get jobs, so the money actually doesn't finance illegal activities, but rather food and medical care for their families back home.


This is the reason why they come to Sweden, because the majority of blue eyed swedish people think like you, they believe in their lies that they are poor hungry beggars. The truth is that they only want money for financing their illegal activities. Try giving the gypsy beggar food instead of money and they will throw the food away. 

The women use their wide skirts for hiding stolen goods, everybody knows that. So the shop owners want to stop them from enter the shop. In Sweden gypsies receive compensation when "discriminated"

In continental Europe people know better. Paris, France used to be a infested with Balkan gypsy beggars scaring tourists away, they were everywhere at the Eiffel tower and Notre Dame. Now the police deport them, making begging illegal.


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## Orionol (Feb 13, 2009)

We got a lot of them in Helsingborg, Sweden. You can probably see them in every corner.

Funny thing is that they believe Swedes will give them money but they don't. I was waiting at a bench for my mom (when she was shopping in a H&M store http://maps.google.se/maps?hl=sv&ll=56.046713,12.694772&spn=0.000003,0.002328&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=56.046763,12.694916&panoid=J4oWZXZKSI7AYfUZZlZ3zQ&cbp=12,4.04,,1,4.5) and a Balkan begger was begging nearby. I was waiting for about 30 min, watching him and he only got some 30 SEK (about 3€) from bypassing people. I was surprised that on a busy street there was so few who gave money. Shocking but in the same time good.


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## Galro (Aug 9, 2010)

I like the blonde beggar in the first picture.


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## x-type (Aug 19, 2005)

Galro said:


> I like the blonde beggar in the first picture.


you have really low criterions.


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## Galro (Aug 9, 2010)

x-type said:


> you have really low criteria.


She looks a lot nicer than our beggars.


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## Orionol (Feb 13, 2009)

Holland got their problems as well:

















(found this here http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1064969&page=119)

Apparently they got a solution to sort the Balkans/Other Europeans and Dutch/Native beggers.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Road_UK said:


> I'm going to subscribe to this thread and I hope I'll see some breathtaking action on here before it gets deleted. You come out with some crap sometimes, but at least you got the balls to take on the entire Yugo mob on this forum...


Which countries from ex-Yugoslavia are in the EU and/or the Schengen Area (other than Slovenia)?


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

^^ I think he is actually referring to the visa-free regime into the Schengen members, which even non-EU Balkan countries enjoy


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Pretty much all Balkan beggars in Western Europe are from Romania though (mostly Gypsies).


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## italystf (Aug 2, 2011)

bogdymol said:


> Balkan map:


Tell to someone from Trieste that he lives in the Balkans. :lol:


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## JloKyM (Mar 3, 2007)

Nice try, but Romania IS part of the Balkan peninsula











Still, the infestation with beggars has nothing to do with the Schengen area, because both Romania and Bulgaria (from where most of the gypsies come from) are not members of Schengen. However, both countries are members of the EU, where the free movement between states is an incontestable right.


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## bogdymol (Feb 4, 2010)

JloKyM said:


> Nice try, but Romania IS part of the Balkan peninsula


Indeed, Dobrogea region of Romania is part of the Balkans, but most of the country is not. The official Balkans are south of Danube-Sava-Kupa line:












JloKyM said:


> Still, the infestation with beggars has nothing to do with the Schengen area, because both Romania and Bulgaria (from where most of the gypsies come from) are not members of Schengen. However, both countries are members of the EU, where the free movement between states is an incontestable right.


Here I agree with you, but I like the typical western-europe feeling that if they are not accepting RO & BG into Schengen area, then all our bad guys won't cross the border. The border crossing formalities between Romania & Schengen area are a joke now. Last 20 times when I crossed the border I waited exactly 10 seconds there (showed ID and... good-bye; not any single other check was done).


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## Orionol (Feb 13, 2009)

bogdymol said:


> Here I agree with you, but I like the typical western-europe feeling that if they are not accepting RO & BG into Schengen area, then all our bad guys won't cross the border. The border crossing formalities between Romania & Schengen area are a joke now. *Last 20 times when I crossed the border I waited exactly 10 seconds there (showed ID and... good-bye; not any single other check was done).*


Because you are not a gypsy. 


Anyway, in my personal view I can't agree that Romania is a part of Balkan. But indeed a part of Romania is Balkan.


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## piotr71 (Sep 8, 2009)

I don't know why, but having read this thread, I got a strange impression as if "Balkans" meant something pejorative for some.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

^^ Unfortunately this is true, "Balkans" has a pejorative meaning for many people.


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## Adde (May 8, 2011)

NordikNerd said:


> This is the reason why they come to Sweden, because the majority of blue eyed swedish people think like you, they believe in their lies that they are poor hungry beggars. The truth is that they only want money for financing their illegal activities. Try giving the gypsy beggar food instead of money and they will throw the food away.


Well, the DN reporters actually went to Romania and visited the village from which most of the Stockholm beggars comes from, and there were definately no "gypsy palaces" there. The houses were of extremely low standard, many of them collapsing, and lacking in basic necessities like water and electricity. 

What's more, you know those pictures of children with a text in broken Swedish about the sick child they need money to take care of? Well, it tuns out that at least in the case of the families that the article followed, the child was real and quite ill. 

The reason the beggars doesn't want food is because they're not here to get food for the day. They are here to get enough money to bring back home in order to pay the local grocers bill they've amassed buying food on credit since their last trip here, and to pay for medical care for older and younger family members, and to pay for basic schooling for their children. Food items doesn't help them with that. 

But yeah, they're not getting a lot of money these days, probably because there is too many of them on the streets. At this point, a trip here barely earns any money to bring back home after expenses has been paid.


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## piotr71 (Sep 8, 2009)

It could be true, however, I know there exist well organized begging crime empires, where members of them mutilate and traffic their own children to other countries. Others, enslave foreign workers (many non English speaking Poles were enslaved by Gypsies and some collaborators of other origins living in the UK) and participate in organizing work camps.


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## italystf (Aug 2, 2011)

I have some friends who volounteered in Romania and Moldavia. They didn't have problems with violence and crime, like many people in the West would expect, but they were shocked by the inhumane living conditions in some rural villages. People living in barracks with no electricity, water, insufficient food,... A member of the Caritas told me that he interviewed some Romanians homeless that use to sleep in Trieste rail station. They felt more comfortable to sleep in the station rather than in their "houses" in Romania because in the station there are toilets with runing water, electric light and heating in winter. In Chisinau they meet 10-12 y.o. kids asking if they wanted to buy weed. Off course an adult is taking advantage of them beacuse if caught they cannot be prosecuted. 14-15 y.o. girls forced to sell their body to eat are unfortunately the norm. Many teenagers arrive in Italy alone, with only the clothes they wear and without knowing anybody. They're a problem mostly for themselves rather than for us.
From those situations most of immigrants, that many people here hate, come.
Off course there are the gypsies and other criminals who steal, sell drugs, rape and murder, but those don't beg on the street, they have bigger sources of money.

And yes, Balkans and Eastern Europe are often perceived as pejoratives.


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## riiga (Nov 2, 2009)

This has indeed become a problem. I live in the same city as NordikNerd and I can only support his statements. My own first observation of these beggars was a few days ago, when a beggar sat outside a nearby supermarket. When given fruit to eat, he just refused and asked for money instead. Very strange behaviour if you're truly in need and not just trying to leech off people.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

italystf said:


> Tell to someone from Trieste that he lives in the Balkans. :lol:


What happens? Does he beat you up Balkans-style? :troll:


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## Adde (May 8, 2011)

riiga said:


> My own first observation of these beggars was a few days ago, when a beggar sat outside a nearby supermarket. When given fruit to eat, he just refused and asked for money instead. Very strange behaviour if you're truly in need and not just trying to leech off people.


Wait, this was your first observation of the phenomenon? In Stockholm and Uppsala they've been around for several years. 

The reason they don't want food is that they're not here in order to get food for themselves. They come here in groups, usually several people from the same village, with help from family or friends who live here. So they've got food for their stay here. What they need is money to bring back home to help all of the people who can't come here to beg - children, old parents etc. Back home they're incredibly poor because jobs are almost non-existent for romani in Romania. 

I had the exact same beliefs about these beggars as you do until I read those articles in DN.


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## Jape (Feb 8, 2005)

italystf said:


> Off course there are the gypsies and other criminals who steal, sell drugs, rape and murder, but those don't beg on the street, they have bigger sources of money.


Like supervising these beggars?

We have the problem too. In addition to begging these gypsies play accordions and trumpets at metro cars, sell roses and collect empty tin cans. And yes, they get very disturbing at times with their aggressive approach. But us privileged Nordic nerds having our feelings hurt only because of having to witness the existence of these rootles, ostracized nomads - that's quite of a "First World Problem" after all.

Here in Helsinki we've got a concept I truly like and appreciate - Iso Numero, a street magazine, which is at the same time a low-threshold employer for those living outside all kinds of social safety nets. Each number costs 4 euros of which the seller gets to keep 3 euros. No taxes, no bureaucracy, no profits for organized crime.









(Source: http://metro.fi/paakaupunkiseutu/uutiset/iso_numero_jarjestaa_myyjakoulutusta/)

There's only one bad thing about this concept - it's too good to be true, hence it's not a good source of income. The content of Iso Numero is mostly culture-concentrated, intellectual and sociocritical for which there's not too big demand on busy metro stations and street crossings. If they would like to get more numbers sold (=more money for the sellers) there should be short and easy articles about celebs, parties, titties, sex tips and superc00l android phones instead. :/


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## cinxxx (Oct 15, 2010)

Adde said:


> Wait, this was your first observation of the phenomenon? In Stockholm and Uppsala they've been around for several years.
> 
> The reason they don't want food is that they're not here in order to get food for themselves. They come here in groups, usually several people from the same village, with help from family or friends who live here. So they've got food for their stay here. What they need is money to bring back home to help all of the people who can't come here to beg - children, old parents etc. Back home they're incredibly poor because jobs are almost non-existent for romani in Romania.
> 
> I had the exact same beliefs about these beggars as you do until I read those articles in DN.


I come from Romania, so I could know a little more on the subject.

Many beggars are forced to do so by criminals (like pimps), and those are usually gypsies too. The beggars are given poor living conditions and thrown on the streets in the morning while picked up in the evening. They are also supervised during the day and get into trouble if they don't do as told.

Then there is another category, con artists, with no problems (health or money) who fake illness and beg. Some are even rich, and after work dress shiny up and drive away in expensive cars. There was a reportage on a woman in Bucharest who fakes being an old ill lady, while in fact being young, healthy, going to gym, on vacations to exotic islands, driving expensive cars. She made more money in a day then I did in a month...

Beggars would not be such a problem for people if they would be discrete. But the aggression with which they do the "job" is disturbing. I never give money to these people.


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## OtAkAw (Aug 5, 2004)

I wonder how this bloke can afford to fatten himself up like this. The common beggar is emaciated.



NordikNerd said:


>


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## riiga (Nov 2, 2009)

Adde said:


> Wait, this was your first observation of the phenomenon? In Stockholm and Uppsala they've been around for several years.


No, I meant first observation in my city.



Adde said:


> Back home they're incredibly poor because *jobs are almost non-existent for romani* in Romania.


I wonder why... 



Adde said:


> I had the exact same beliefs about these beggars as you do until I read those articles in DN.


I've read the articles as well. What they and you write may certainly be true, but only for a tiny minority of the beggars. If you were a beggar being interviewed by a newspaper, wouldn't you want people to feel sorry for you so that they'll give more money? "I'm a gypsy mother of seven, have no left arm, my eyesight is poor and there's a war going on in my country." You get the gist of it.


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## VITORIA MAN (Jan 31, 2013)

from vitoria (E)


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## Adde (May 8, 2011)

riiga said:


> I wonder why...


It's a well known fact that the Romani are among the most disadvantaged groups in Europe. Rasism and prejudice towards "gypsies" is pretty much endemic.



riiga said:


> I've read the articles as well. What they and you write may certainly be true, but only for a tiny minority of the beggars. If you were a beggar being interviewed by a newspaper, wouldn't you want people to feel sorry for you so that they'll give more money? "I'm a gypsy mother of seven, have no left arm, my eyesight is poor and there's a war going on in my country." You get the gist of it.


Of course, which is why the reporters verified the facts by visiting the village the beggars come from, as well as the "camp" (basically a bunch of old abandoned cars and caravans in the woods outside town) they lived in while here in Stockholm.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Adde said:


> It's a well known fact that the Romani are among the most disadvantaged groups in Europe. Rasism and prejudice towards "gypsies" is pretty much endemic.


Prejudice towards gypsies certainly exists, but I bet normal-looking and normal-behaving gypsies can get jobs much easier (look at Sinti). If I looked dirty, I'm sure they wouldn't hire me either. It's not easy to find a job for ethnic Romanians, so of all people, why hire someone looking unreliable? Besides, no one forbids them to hire each other.


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## riiga (Nov 2, 2009)

Adde said:


> It's a well known fact that the Romani are among the most disadvantaged groups in Europe. Rasism and prejudice towards "gypsies" is pretty much endemic.


Yeah, and their behaviour and culture doesn't do very much to improve that reputation. 100 % of all times I've encountered gypsies they've been begging for money or trying to scam someone. hno:




Adde said:


> Of course, which is why the reporters verified the facts by visiting the village the beggars come from, as well as the "camp" (basically a bunch of old abandoned cars and caravans in the woods outside town) they lived in while here in Stockholm.


I wouldn't trust the "verification" too much.


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## italystf (Aug 2, 2011)

cinxxx said:


> Beggars would not be such a problem for people if they would be discrete. But the aggression with which they do the "job" is disturbing. I never give money to these people.


In Italy, especially in touristic places, there are often immigrants selling sunglasses, bracelets, flowers, gadgets,... Some are polite (and for me it's not a problem, apart not paying taxes, they don't annoy, damage or defraud anybody, there are immigrants doing far worse things). Other instead, are truly harassers, they don't let you go away if you don't buy.hno:


OtAkAw said:


> I wonder how this bloke can afford to fatten himself up like this. The common beggar is emaciated.


Meet once an Eastern Europe girl on a train, normally dressed and even with coloured hair (not like a desperately poor person would be).
She asked: "Have you some money? I've no food."
I replied: "Sorry, I only have my credit card. But if you're hungry I've some bread and snacks in my rucksack."
She replied: "No, thanks, I just need some money."hno:
Do you really think that a hungry person would refuse food? I'd rather give 100€ to a reliable charity association rather than 1€ to someone who's gonna to spend them in alchool, gambling or drug.


Verso said:


> Prejudice towards gypsies certainly exists, but I bet normal-looking and normal-behaving gypsies can get jobs much easier (look at Sinti). If I looked dirty, I'm sure they wouldn't hire me either. It's not easy to find a job for ethnic Romanians, so of all people, why hire someone looking unreliable? Besides, no one forbids them to hire each other.


Ok, it's true that many people still have racial prejudices, not only against gypsies, but also against blacks, Asians, Muslims, foreign in general,... and this may interfere with the unemployment rate of ethinc minorities.

But it's also true that a large share of the gypsy population refuse a stable and regular job. It's not in their culture. They rather go to jail for theft, drug traffiking or pimping rather than getting up every morning and go to office\factory. If the municipality give a house to 3 of them, other 15 will come illegally to live there. Then the place become a hub for smuggling of drugs and stolen goods and the honest, unlucky, neighbours are scaried away. Maybe they remove and sell furnitures, electric appliances, copper wires and draining pipes and then ask to the municipality for a new apartment because the one they have is unsuitable for living.
There are also normal people among gypsies, and some of them are harassed and bullied by the rest of the clan, that doesn't approve their socially, legally and morally correct behavior.
It's a complicated story...
Usually the Roma are the most problematic, while the Sinti are more integrated.
And associated all Eastern Europeans with gypsies like many people here do is simply wrong.


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## Adde (May 8, 2011)

Verso said:


> Prejudice towards gypsies certainly exists, but I bet normal-looking and normal-behaving gypsies can get jobs much easier (look at Sinti). If I looked dirty, I'm sure they wouldn't hire me either. It's not easy to find a job for ethnic Romanians, so of all people, why hire someone looking unreliable? Besides, no one forbids them to hire each other.


Come on, this post just reeks of prejudice. You're not dirty just because you're Romani. And why not hire each other? Well, if no one's got a job, how the hell do you "hire each other"?


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## Adde (May 8, 2011)

riiga said:


> Yeah, and their behaviour and culture doesn't do very much to improve that reputation. 100 % of all times I've encountered gypsies they've been begging for money or trying to scam someone. hno:.


You do know that there is a sizable Roma minority in Sweden that has been here for centuries, right? That don't beg or scam anyone? Even though they were forced to live in camps outside the towns until the 60's, were forcibly sterilized at times and so on? 

The Roma that beg are almost exclusively from Romania, and they don't beg because of their "culture", they beg because they don't have any other income. 




riiga said:


> I wouldn't trust the "verification" too much.


Yeah, because it's all an elaborate conspiracy, right? The run down village without running water doesn't really exist, the old people and children are really just actors, the factory where the men used to work didn't really close down, and Roma in Romania are treated great.


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## riiga (Nov 2, 2009)

Adde said:


> Well, if no one's got a job, how the hell do you "hire each other"?


Ever heard of starting your own business?



Adde said:


> You do know that there is a sizable Roma minority in Sweden that has been here for centuries, right? That don't beg or scam anyone?


Let me rephrase that then: 100 % of all times I've encountered gypsies that look like gypsies, i.e. in traditional clothing.



Adde said:


> The Roma that beg are almost exclusively from Romania, and they don't beg because of their "culture", they beg because they don't have any other income.


They beg and try to scam people because their toxic culture works like that. Why else would they continue doing that generation after generation unless they're taught by their parents and peers? Try the same argument for eg. honour killings in Islam: is it because they have no other choice or because it's in their culture?



Adde said:


> Yeah, because it's all an elaborate conspiracy, right? The run down village without running water doesn't really exist, the old people and children are really just actors, the factory where the men used to work didn't really close down, and Roma in Romania are treated great.


Those are your words, not mine. I've never talked about any conspiracy.


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## cinxxx (Oct 15, 2010)

There are still a lot of villages without running water, gas or canalization. Surprise, people don't beg there, they work they're land, they work hard and are happy. But wait, they are not gypsies. I ask you to visit rural Romania and see with your own eyes how things really are, and not only some chosen gypsy villages.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Adde said:


> Come on, this post just reeks of prejudice. You're not dirty just because you're Romani. And why not hire each other? Well, if no one's got a job, how the hell do you "hire each other"?


Self-employment. No, you're not dirty just because you're a Rom, but most of them are and I was talking about those.


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## cinxxx (Oct 15, 2010)

Here you go, google translate it, poor gypsies hno:
http://www.pressalert.ro/2013/05/ad...ntii-de-persoane-din-clanul-tiganesc-carpaci/


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## Adde (May 8, 2011)

riiga said:


> Ever heard of starting your own business?


Yeah, because starting your own business is so easy, especially in an impoverished rural village, without any starting capital, no possibility of a loan, plus you're likely to be illiterate because there's poor access to education. 




riiga said:


> Let me rephrase that then: 100 % of all times I've encountered gypsies that look like gypsies, i.e. in traditional clothing.


The Roma in Sweden that wear traditional clothing primarily migrated here from Finland in the 1950's. The Roma that were here before that doesn't wear traditional clothing, and neither does the beggars from Romania. I've never seen any Roma in traditional clothing beg or scam anyone, and I grew up close to one of their communities. 




riiga said:


> They beg and try to scam people because their toxic culture works like that. Why else would they continue doing that generation after generation unless they're taught by their parents and peers? Try the same argument for eg. honour killings in Islam: is it because they have no other choice or because it's in their culture?


Do you actually know anything about Roma culture? Other than the stereotypes you were told as a kid (which I heard as well)? The stereotype of Roma stealing comes from the fact that the Roma weren't allowed to live in towns or communities until well into the 20th century. This meant that they were forcibly segregated from the majority community, which led to lots of suspicion against them. 

Honor killings are completely irrelevant to the subject at hand.


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## Adde (May 8, 2011)

cinxxx said:


> There are still a lot of villages without running water, gas or canalization. Surprise, people don't beg there, they work they're land, they work hard and are happy. But wait, they are not gypsies. I ask you to visit rural Romania and see with your own eyes how things really are, and not only some chosen gypsy villages.


Of course people don't beg in their own villages. What would be the point? No one's got any money. That's the whole reason why they travel to cities in other parts of Europe to beg. Actually, they often go in hope of getting a paying job, but when that turns out to be very difficult they are forced to resort to begging. 

And it doesn't matter whether there are nice villages where everyone's happy in rural Romania. I'm sure there are. In some villages, that's _not_ the case though, so people travel to other parts if Europe to make money, and many end up begging. The fact that many of those people are Roma is a natural result of the fact that the Roma is a disadvantaged group in Europe.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

It's always everyone else's fault for gypsies.


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## italystf (Aug 2, 2011)

Adde said:


> The Roma that beg are almost exclusively from Romania, and they don't beg because of their "culture", they beg because they don't have any other income.


Yes, most of gypsies living in Western Europe come from Romania. They don't have any other income like many other immigrants from other countries and even natives who lost their job due to the crisis. Off course people when are desperate try every possible way to survive. But if you give a job opportunity to someone else who is pennyless he will gladily accept it, if you give it to some Roma guy, instead... Ant this is the difference.
In those years of bad economical crisis there are many Italians in bad economical conditions, especially elderly with the minimum retirement wage or people that just got fired because the factory closed down or something. They usually go around crazy for another job (even if underpaid and temporary), sell their gold or their car, cut off all unnecessary expenses, ask for help to wealthy relatives... You something read about some of them being arrested for shoplifting in supermarkets, but I never read of "normal" people that do very nasty stuff like forcing their children to beg or offer sex or killing for money. It means that people that didn't live in a criminal background aren't likely to go beyond a certain point even if desperate.


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## Adde (May 8, 2011)

Begging is pretty damn far from "killing for money" or selling sex. That's not to say that some people don't use their children in order to elicit more sympathy, and there is an element of forced begging (people are lured to for instance Sweden with promises off paid work, but when they arrive there's no job, and they're in debt to the people who funded their trip). 

But most do want to work. Many of the romanian Roma in Sweden for instance worked as housekeepers in Southern Europe before the financial crisis hit, and many of the men first came here in hope of getting work on for instance construction sites.


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## Laurentzius (Sep 10, 2010)

Adde said:


> Begging is pretty damn far from "killing for money" or selling sex. That's not to say that some people don't use their children in order to elicit more sympathy, and there is an element of forced begging (people are lured to for instance Sweden with promises off paid work, but when they arrive there's no job, and they're in debt to the people who funded their trip).


I love those people from Western Europe who think they are experts just because they've visited for a few hours a poor Gypsy community. How about you get real, for a change?






That being said, I'm glad that Gypsies migrated to WE because it seems you desperately need a wake-up call. That's the only silver lining in this whole story, considering that Romania's reputation abroad is in the toilet because (most) of them.


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## Adde (May 8, 2011)

I'm not saying I'm an expert. I'm just saying that there is a lot of predjudice against the people who come to Western Europe to beg, many of whom are Roma, even though there often are legitimate reasons for why the have to resort to begging. The attitudes towards the Roma that is apparent in this thread illustrates my point.


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## Laurentzius (Sep 10, 2010)

Adde said:


> I'm just saying that there is a lot of predjudice against the people who come to Western Europe to beg, many of whom are Roma, even though there often are legitimate reasons for why the have to resort to begging.


Would you care to elaborate? As far as I'm concerned, there are no legitimate reasons for begging. Even if there is prejudice against Gypsies in CE Europe, once they've arrived to the promised land aka W Europe they should be able to integrate there like any other immigrants from all over the world. After all, they are now free from ze evil racists keeping them down, aren't they?


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## piotr71 (Sep 8, 2009)

I will not comment this right wing propaganda article, just paste it even though it's not quite about gypsies, but it match to the typical Western European vie of the problem:



> The grim dwellings are mere shacks – damp and freezing cold in the bitter Romanian winter. Close up, there is shocking evidence of raw sewage in the slum where 500 families live.
> Around the site is a 6ft wall built by the local mayor which has effectively made the slum into a ghetto. When this is your home, it is little wonder you may want to escape to a new life in a foreign country.
> If that is the dream for these impoverished gypsy families – relocated to dilapidated buildings near an abandoned copper factory in northern Romania – it is surely one shared by thousands of Romanians who say they would like to move to Britain in January when they gain full rights to live, work and claim benefits under EU ‘freedom of movement’ rules.





> But trapping the families in the northern Romanian town of Baia Mare helped Mr Chereches to become the country's most popular local politician and showed how central Europe's lacklustre economies and widespread poverty can trigger radical solutions.
> Mr Chereches won 86 percent of the vote in June's local election, just days after the rehousing started.
> 'He's done a great job by putting up the wall,' said Michael Szinn, a 74-year-old pensioner in the main Freedom Square. 'Gypsy kids were on the streets before and threw stones at cars. Moving others to Cuprom is an even better thing for our city.'
> Outbursts of anti-Roma sentiment are common across central Europe and hundreds of thousands have flooded western European cities since these countries joined the EU. According to police, many beg and are often involved in crime and trafficking rings.
> ...


Full article.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Anti-Roma sentiment is common across central Europe, western Europe, and the whole world.


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## Adde (May 8, 2011)

Laurentzius said:


> Would you care to elaborate? As far as I'm concerned, there are no legitimate reasons for begging. Even if there is prejudice against Gypsies in CE Europe, once they've arrived to the promised land aka W Europe they should be able to integrate there like any other immigrants from all over the world. After all, they are now free from ze evil racists keeping them down, aren't they?


First of all, there is a lot of predjudice and racism towards Roma in Western Europe as well. 

Second of all, it's not a matter of "integrating" once they are in Western Europe, because most of them don't come here to live, but to make money. They've still got their family back home, and getting a permanent "green card" isn't easy if you're not escaping a war-torn country. So what they are doing is taking advantage of their right, as EU citizens, of free passage over the borders. Once they are for instance in Sweden, they try to find a job. This of course is almost impossible if you haven't got the language skills (preferably the local language or at least English) or specialized sought-after skills. So they resort to begging, because they can't return home empty handed (or at a loss). The next time they come here, they know they probably won't find a job, but the still made more money begging in the west then they do back home, so they make the trip anyway. 

Remember, you're only free to live in a different EU country if you've got a source of income. If you don't, you're sent back home. So actually moving to the west is a high bar to clear unless you're for instance an asylum seeker.


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## Laurentzius (Sep 10, 2010)

Adde said:


> First of all, there is a lot of predjudice and racism towards Roma in Western Europe as well.
> 
> Second of all, it's not a matter of "integrating" once they are in Western Europe, because most of them don't come here to live, but to make money. They've still got their family back home, and getting a permanent "green card" isn't easy if you're not escaping a war-torn country. So what they are doing is taking advantage of their right, as EU citizens, of free passage over the borders. Once they are for instance in Sweden, they try to find a job. This of course is almost impossible if you haven't got the language skills (preferably the local language or at least English) or specialized sought-after skills. So they resort to begging, because they can't return home empty handed (or at a loss). The next time they come here, they know they probably won't find a job, but the still made more money begging in the west then they do back home, so they make the trip anyway.
> 
> Remember, you're only free to live in a different EU country if you've got a source of income. If you don't, you're sent back home. So actually moving to the west is a high bar to clear unless you're for instance an asylum seeker.













Yes, it is a matter of integrating. Most E Europeans go to Western Europe to work for a period of time and than return home. Even if this is the last year when there still are some labor market restrictions for Romanians/Bulgarians in some WE countries, Ro&Bg citizens don't need any damn "green card" to get a job and live a normal life. There are plenty unskilled E Europeans who manage to get a job in W Europe and not resort to begging and other petty crimes. Besides, why would they move and remain in a country if they can't get a job? It's only their choice to live on the fringes of society and leech it. They make more money that way?I would also make more money if I became a hitman instead of getting an ordinary job, but most likely I won't do that. What kind of a cheap ass excuse is that? 

Remember, you're talking to somebody who knows a lot about both Gypsy communities and how the European Unions works. Now go tell any asylum seeker that he's better off than an EU citizen and see how he'll react.


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## Adde (May 8, 2011)

Again, what is this thing about comparing begging to assassination? It's not helping your argument. 

Yeah, a lot of Eastern Europeans come to Western Europe to work. But don't pretend it's as easy as just showing up and then you get a job. Most of them take advantage of pre-existing connections in the country the go to work in. And unlike a lot of Roma, they are literate and they know at least some English. They are also not so desperately poor back home that they would rather beg then go home empty handed. 

Do you think it's fun to beg? That it's easier than working? Begging is humiliating, it's cold (winters ins Scandinavia are not exactly pleasant) and it means sitting or standing still in the same spot for 6-8 hours without making more than 10€ or so while being away from your family for months at a time. Begging is a last resort when you can't see any other way out.


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## Laurentzius (Sep 10, 2010)

Adde said:


> Do you think it's fun to beg? That it's easier than working? Begging is humiliating, it's cold (winters ins Scandinavia are not exactly pleasant) and it means sitting or standing still in the same spot for 6-8 hours without making more than 10€ or so while being away from your family for months at a time. Begging is a last resort when you can't see any other way out.


Well, it certainly beats doing manual labor. Do you know what's really hard? Waking up every morning and doing backbreaking labor on construction sites or fields picking up vegetables or whatnot, like plenty regular E Europeans do each day.

It's painfully obvious for everybody that the roots of this situation is the traditional Gypsy culture. Not for you though, because apparently you're willing to make up excuses for everything Gypsies do, no matter what. I wish you good luck, and I hope more Gypsies will head your way so you can help them with your revolutionary ostrich tactics.


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## piotr71 (Sep 8, 2009)

Laurentzius said:


> (..) There are plenty unskilled E Europeans who manage to get a job in W Europe and not resort to begging and other petty crimes. (..)


Just to correct that. There is not many unskilled Eastern Europeans at all. A huge number of those, who work in foreign countries usually take jobs much under their qualifications. Poles, Slovaks, *Romanians* or Latvians working as carpenters, plumbers, electricians or so, can be either: lowest skilled professionals (after 3 year vocational semi college), technicians (after 4 or 5 year technical school/college) or even some who graduated in polytechnic. Eastern European Houskeepers, restaurants' and hotels' staff, minicab drivers or toilet cleaners in many cases have university or equivalent high education degree. There is obviously too many reasons to mention they do not show their diplomata neither work in their professions in Western Europe.


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## Laurentzius (Sep 10, 2010)

^^

I know that. I was trying to say that many Eastern Europeans take even menial jobs if necessary, even if they have university or postgraduate degrees. That's more proof, if we needed any, that there is no excuse and that nobody's "pushing" Gypsies to beg in the streets. The real problem is the work ethic, or better said lack of.


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## Adde (May 8, 2011)

Laurentzius said:


> Well, it certainly beats doing manual labor. Do you know what's really hard? Waking up every morning and doing backbreaking labor on construction sites or fields picking up vegetables or whatnot, like plenty regular E Europeans do each day.


You know what, I have one of those jobs that often involve manual labor, and I'd much rather work with a pick axe all day than humiliate myself begging on the corner of a street in the cold. 



Laurentzius said:


> It's painfully obvious for everybody that the roots of this situation is the traditional Gypsy culture. Not for you though, because apparently you're willing to make up excuses for everything Gypsies do, no matter what. I wish you good luck, and I hope more Gypsies will head your way so you can help them with your revolutionary ostrich tactics.


And it's painfully obvious to everybody that you've got some pretty damning pre-conceived notions about "gypsy culture", as well as a complete lack of understanding of what it's like being part of a desperately poor minority who are regularly subjected to serious racism and predjudice. 

I'm not "making excuses" for everything Roma people do. What I'm saying is that it's not as simple as just "it's gypsie culture!" and "they're lazy!". Are there examples of people begging who doesn't really need to? Sure. Do some people resort to crime? Sure. But a sizeable portion of the Roma who beg in Western Europe do it because they feel like they have to.


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## piotr71 (Sep 8, 2009)

Here are the words of a Polish Roma Community head, Roman Chojnacki. The quote comes just after his visit to World Romani Congress in Romania, Sbiu, April 2013.




> Tak w rzeczywistości, gdyby Romowie korzystali ze środków, które są im oferowane, nigdy nie musieliby przyjeżdżać do Polski. Wtedy żaden europejski kraj nie miałby problemu z Romami. Ale unijne środki są źle wydatkowane albo też nikt nie potrafi z nich skorzystać. Możliwości i środki w Rumunii są, ale nie ma chęci, by po nie sięgnąć.
> source


Rough translation:

_Practically, if the Roma people (means those from Romania) had a will to use funds offered to to them, they would never had to emigrated to Poland (yes, they come to Poland and do not even integrate with Polish Gypsies). Then, no European (mind, he did not say Western European) country would have have any issues related to Romani people. However, either, EU funds are no spent well or nobody is able to use them properly. *There are funds and possibilities in Romania* but no wish shown (probably means Roma community) to gain the funds._


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## Fitzrovian (Oct 12, 2011)

Adde said:


> You know what, I have one of those jobs that often involve manual labor, and I'd much rather work with a pick axe all day than humiliate myself begging on the corner of a street in the cold.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am sorry but this is such a crock of sh*t, I can't believe anyone would seriously think that. Please nobody "has to" beg, there is almost always work to be found of some sort. And if not then these people who feel so desperate should get on the first bus back home if they have any dignity or self-respect. No, what you really want to say is that "a sizable portion of the Roma who beg in Western Europe do it because it's much easier (and probably more profitable) than doing real work". That would make a lot more sense.


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