# BERLIN | Public Transport



## cityskyscrapers

*Photos U-Bahn Berlin/Germany*

All photos taken between 17-19 Jun 2005.

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## Bitxofo

Quite old and dirty...


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## DiggerD21

bitxofo said:


> Quite old and dirty...


It is Germany's oldest metro-system (opened 1902) and Berlin has currently no money to renovate all stations.


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## sfgadv02

Wow, grafitti everywhere!


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## Bitxofo

DiggerD21 said:


> It is Germany's oldest metro-system (opened 1902) and Berlin has currently no money to renovate all stations.


I know but it is a pitty because I love Berlin metro system!!


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## Mike

sfgadv02 said:


> Wow, grafitti everywhere!


There were actually very few grafittis in the pictures. You haven't seen the real messed up places. Here in Frankfurt for instance they scratching their tags into the train windows. There is hardly any train window left without it.


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## DrJoe

Looks pretty cool, a little grafitti never hurt anyone. Those trains look ancient but nice, how old are they???


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## crazyjoeda

bitxofo said:


> Quite old and dirty...


I like that it looks that way.


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## GENIUS LOCI

great pix 

Berlin U bahn, S bahn and railways system is one of my favourite kay:


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## beta29

Thanks cityskyscrapers for this pics. I also posted a lot pictures from Berlin metro last time.
You´re right, the stations are old and the most are dirty and Berlin has no money. Anyway they are doing a lot. For example they have renovated the half of the U5. Or they´re building the U55....
The problem here is that when a station is renovated it will be full of tags and graffiti on the next day.
But in all metros, trams and buses we will get cameras now, so there will be not so much scratching anymore.


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## beta29

DrJoe said:


> Looks pretty cool, a little grafitti never hurt anyone. Those trains look ancient but nice, how old are they???


The trains on pic 2,3,11 are about 40 years
The trains on pic 1,4 are about 20 years also the train on pic 12
Then we have new trains(H-trains), about 5 years old.
And we will get new trains for the small-profile!(HK-trains)


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## artoor

It's kind of charming but me prefer Berlin's S-Bahn.


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## CharlieP

One trivial fact I know is that when Berlin was divided, one line belonging to West Berlin ran through East Berlin, though the trains didn't stop and the stations were guarded by East German soldiers...


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## beta29

CharlieP said:


> One trivial fact I know is that when Berlin was divided, one line belonging to West Berlin ran through East Berlin, though the trains didn't stop and the stations were guarded by East German soldiers...


yes, the U6 and the U8!


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## arashi_1987

other than the grafitti, it doesnt look too bad...

station entrances are funny...(pic #7)

I am assuming that there are new and modern looking stations in Berlin right?


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## Mojito

Nice pictures! Looking at these pictures, I hear the automatic women's voice calling "Zug nach Pankow...Einsteigen bitte!" again...

I love the Berlin U-bahn and S-bahn (I know, they are different) systems very much! Yes, much of it is old, just like the majority of the Paris and London networks. But it gives them a soul...I hated and liked the former DDR metro trains (picture #12) on line U2. Very simple shaped, as two motor-driven yellow containers with doors and windows in it on steel wheels and without anything you can call 'design'...Not to say very ugly! When I took the U2 and a train of this type showed up, I felt disappointed. But somehow I loved them.

Too bad you didn't take pictures of the S-bahn system. I think I love it even more than the U-bahn, because of the 1930's atmosphere, still present and visible on many stations.


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## beta29

yeah, I know them. These are the G-type metro trains. You´ll see them for the next 10 years in Berlin, they renovate these trains because they´re very young compared with trains on pic 2,3!


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## beta29

arashi_1987 said:


> other than the grafitti, it doesnt look too bad...
> 
> station entrances are funny...(pic #7)
> 
> I am assuming that there are new and modern looking stations in Berlin right?


What´s so funny about this station in pic 7?? It´s one of the oldest in Berlin.

Of course there are lots of renovated stations. Look at this website!
www.untergrundbahn.de/bahnhoefe.htm


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## Nephasto

I just love it!
It has an unique charm... the old stations and that ancient look! Fabulous! 

They should clean the graffiti though. I went there last year, and the stations on line 8, were they were doing renovation works, were a mess.


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## edubejar

bitxofo said:


> Quite old and dirty...


old, yes, but dirty? I don't see any trash or filth...I notice people always assume that old=dirty.


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## arashi_1987

beta29 said:


> What´s so funny about this station in pic 7?? It´s one of the oldest in Berlin.
> 
> Of course there are lots of renovated stations. Look at this website!
> www.untergrundbahn.de/bahnhoefe.htm


thanks...but it's a bit difficult to use the site when I don't understand German  

Sorry if I used the wrong word "funny"...perhaps "different from those I am used to" would have been a better word.


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## beta29

arashi_1987 said:


> thanks...but it's a bit difficult to use the site when I don't understand German
> 
> Sorry if I used the wrong word "funny"...perhaps "different from those I am used to" would have been a better word.


It is not difficult if you only want to see the stations. Just klick on the buttons U1-U9.
Then you can see all stations on this line.  

If you´re intersted I can look if I find some english websites.
You´ve been to urbanrail.net ??


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## beta29

Now it´s my time, I´ll post some pics: 
Here you can see S-bahn, tram and bus too!


































































If you want to see more just say then I´ll post


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## Falubaz

the S-bahn is one of the best things in Germany. the french RER or spainish cercanias are coool too, but german S-Bahn is just the best one (under the city rails). if u could, post some more pics of that.


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## Nephasto

:applause:


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## beta29

Ok, it´s time for some more S-bahn pics!









































































If you want to see more, just ask!


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## micro

beta29 said:


>


480 is the coolest train design ever! Unfortunately, after German reunification, they gave up the design in favor of a new East-West joint-venture train series. So there's only a small number of 480s existing :rant:


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## CharlieP

CharlieP said:


> One trivial fact I know is that when Berlin was divided, one line belonging to West Berlin ran through East Berlin, though the trains didn't stop and the stations were guarded by East German soldiers...


An interesting website about the above:

http://www.geocities.com/isanders_2000/ubahn.htm


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## spsmiler

CharlieP said:


> One trivial fact I know is that when Berlin was divided, one line belonging to West Berlin ran through East Berlin, though the trains didn't stop and the stations were guarded by East German soldiers...


I first went to Berlin in 1989, just after the wall was opened.

U-Bahn trains on two lines went through East Berlin without stopping, except at two interchange stations (Freiderichstrasse and I think Alexanderplatz) where western passengers could change between trains (U-bahn and S-Bahn). In the passageways were duty-free shops, as technically they were in a "different" country.

I also remember being in East Berlin walking along a road where the west Berlin U-Bahn ran underneath - and when there was no traffic you could hear the trains below your feet!!!

Somewhere I still have a 1989 East Berlin map, showing only the trains and trams which were in East Berlin - and a West Berlin map showing the whole system, even though some of it was £on the other side".

Simon


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## Palal

DrJoe said:


> Looks pretty cool, a little grafitti never hurt anyone.


It hurts everyone. Because everyone pays to remove it whether or not you like the concept of grafitti yourself.


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## De Snor

DiggerD21 said:


> It is Germany's oldest metro-system (opened 1902) and Berlin has currently no money to renovate all stations.


Pity the new extensions are postponed too


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## beta29

*Berlin Double Decker Buses*

First I show you the new Lions Couch buses from M.A.N .
The BVG (Berlin transport) has ordered 100 from them.

They´re the biggest city-line double decker buses in Europe (In the world?)

































































FACTS:
-place for 128 people
-length: 13,70
-breadth: 2,55
-310 ps
-6 cylinder
-height above: 1,70 m
-height below: 1,92 m

There´s video surveillance in the whole bus and a full climate system!


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## beta29

Here are some older Berlin Double Deckers:


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## GNU

thx! I have been looking for pics of that bus!
the thing I like about it is that it has two staircases to the upper deck


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## hkskyline

13.7m long! That's even longer than the other German giant - the Neoplan bus!


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## GNU

yes, thats alomst 14m!!
the next step must be the Doubledecker-bendy bus!!


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## beta29

Here are some pics from Berlin, Germany!


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## aznichiro115

no the Neoplan Megashuttle is 15m long
gakei's site http://www.gakei.com/15m/15m.htm


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## hkskyline

I've actually seen a double-decker articulated bus in Belgium.



















@ aznichiro115 : I was actually refering to the 12-m Neoplan Centroliner that is currently in use. The MegaShuttle never made it to passenger service in Hong Kong.


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## sequoias

hkskyline said:


> I've actually seen a double-decker articulated bus in Belgium.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @ aznichiro115 : I was actually refering to the 12-m Neoplan Centroliner that is currently in use. The MegaShuttle never made it to passenger service in Hong Kong.


That's a articulated single decker motorcoach, not a city bus. I don't see 2 floors on that bus, since there is no window on the lower floor of that bus.


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## hkskyline

^ If you look at the picture of the front, you will see there are passengers sitting above the driver's cab.


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## gakei

Is there any full-length passenger compartment on the driving-cab deck?
If no, it cannot be regarded as a double-deck.



hkskyline said:


> ^ If you look at the picture of the front, you will see there are passengers sitting above the driver's cab.


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## hkskyline

There certainly are two floors on the bus. I'm not sure what's on the bottom deck, perhaps it's a luggage compartment area, since this is the shuttle bus between Brussels Midi station and Charleroi Airport. If it is indeed a compartment area, then notice how high the floor is, since the driver can certainly stand and not hit his head. It's not like a typical coach with a very low ceiling luggage area on the bottom.


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## gakei

Have you actually observed what's inside the so called "lower deck"?

You use the headroom of driving cab as a reference to estimate the headroom throughout the whole "lower deck" may not be correct, since a vehicle's floor height may vary in different parts, and normally low in the front and high in the rear. I see the grilles on the side, which indicate there may be some instruments (e.g. radiators) occupying the "lower floor".

I don't think it is a passenger deck since it has no window. If it is for luggage, I'm afraid the coach cannot be treated as a "double deck".

Though there may not be an official definition for the term "double deck", but I think it should be a common sense that only that accomdating human beings is treated as a "deck" ?



hkskyline said:


> There certainly are two floors on the bus. I'm not sure what's on the bottom deck, perhaps it's a luggage compartment area, since this is the shuttle bus between Brussels Midi station and Charleroi Airport. If it is indeed a compartment area, then notice how high the floor is, since the driver can certainly stand and not hit his head. It's not like a typical coach with a very low ceiling luggage area on the bottom.


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## hkskyline

I doubt the top deck will slump down near the back because from the photo, the upper deck's windows are consistently level, and it is highly unlikely the elevation will drop inside the passenger cabin significantly or else people won't be able to see out.

This is a double deck coach with both passenger and cargo space. Just because people may not be sitting on the lower deck doesn't mean it is a single decker. A single deck coach will not have so much elevation difference between the passenger area and the luggage compartment - typical coaches have only a few steps difference. You can see the bus to the left is more typical of a single-deck coach with a smaller luggage compartment area below. This one has 2 physical stories and passengers will need to access a long staircase to reach their seats upstairs, as shown by the elevation difference in the first photo. The height of the bus resembles a double decker rather than a single-decker coach. Using that analogy, a 20-storey apartment whose first floor is occupied by a club house is not a 19-storey residential building because people live on only 19 floors. It is still a 20-storey residential building.


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## gakei

hkskyline said:


> Using that analogy, a 20-storey apartment whose first floor is occupied by a club house is not a 19-storey residential building because people live on only 19 floors. It is still a 20-storey residential building.


Different things have different definitions.


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## beta29

Hmm, maybe we could talk about Berlin Double Decker Buses again!?


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## beta29

Old Berlin Double Deckers:




































































































more soon...!


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## micro

beta29 said:


> -height above: 1,70 m


This is still too low to stand upright! That's what I like in London, they have double decker buses with upper floors high enough to stand upright.


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## ch1le

very cool busses! I love doubledeckers!


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## Nightsky

Actually I saw one of the old double deckers when I was in Berlin for just 2 hours the last Sunday.


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## samsonyuen

oh, you can't stand up fully in the top deck (unless you're short)?


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## Anymodal

those buses hurt my eyes.


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## NothingBetterToDo

nice double decker.....we need those in London instead of those dire single decker bendy buses


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## beta29

I have a nice pic here, you can see the front of every Berlin Double Decker Bus (The two newest are not on this pic)


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## beta29

Some pics again!


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## superchan7

Usually you're not allowed to stand in the upper deck. This is true even in London and Hong Kong. Most buses won't fit taller people standing in the upper deck (such as myself).

And why does a Berlin bus have a Stuttgart plate? Is it because they were purchased there?


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## beta29

superchan7 said:


> Usually you're not allowed to stand in the upper deck. This is true even in London and Hong Kong. Most buses won't fit taller people standing in the upper deck (such as myself).
> 
> And why does a Berlin bus have a Stuttgart plate? Is it because they were purchased there?



It also isn´t allowed to stand on the upper deck in Berlin.

The Neoplan buses are produced in Stuttgart, Pilsting and Plauen.
This one is from Stuttgart.


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## beta29

I decided to post normal buses too! Here´s one:


Solaris bus:


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## El_Greco

Cool buses


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## Falubaz

will the Berlin Suedkreuz station the new comuter railway station (S-Bahn) or just anopther station for inter city transoport??


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## lindenthaler

^^ I am pretty sure it s a clean S-Bahn station, just look on S logo on the station name


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## ScHoKoApFeL

Stevan said:


> ^^ I am pretty sure it s a clean S-Bahn station, just look on S logo on the station name



No, it's not. This new station (also called "Papestraße") is part of the new "Pilzkonzept" ("mushroom draft") which will be in operation as soon as the new main station will be built (May 2006?). 
The new stations "Südkreuz/Papestraße" and "Nordkreuz/Gesundbrunnen" (and the new main station "Lehrter Bahnhof", of course) will be served by ICE or other far-distance trains (IC), regional commuter trains and S-Bahn then. (you can also see the "DB"-logo on the picture above) 
There has been built a new north-south connection which is mostly underground through the city, "Potsdamer Platz" will also have an underground regional train station then. 











This is the new station in the north ("Nordkreuz/Gesundbrunnen"):


















































© http://www.ekunkel.de/


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## GNU

I really prefer the modernized G-train over the new HK series.
the HK series really lack in character


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## GNU

AmiDelf said:


> Communistic towers on the way. Someone knows what this is actually? From the war or during communist time?


this seems to be a graveyard for soviet soldiers who died in the battle for Berlin in 1945.
there are many graveyards like these in Berlin, especially in the outskirts of the city.


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## GNU

wc eend said:


> Does Warschauer Strasse also has a U- or a S-Bahn station? And if yes, does it also has a Polish flag?


No it doesnt 

Here are some pics of warschauer Strasse.

This is the Underground-station of Warschuer Strasse.








entrance:








an underground train approaching warchauer strasse









and this is the S-Bahn station just next to the U-bahn station which is now being renovated









the original station had been destroyed in an air-raid in world war 2.
afterwards a cheap version had been built which is still in use.


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## HelloMoto163

lehrter bahnhof actually




























source: http://www.ekunkel.de/


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## GNU

Here are some inside impressions of the Lehrter Bahnhof:

btw. this is Hany Azer, The project leader









inside:










































the lights. they have a cool 20's style to them imo










:cheers: 

btw: does anybody know where the Lehrter Bahnhof thread is gone? I cant find it.


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## pflo777

the ceiling looks awfulll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I hope von Gerkan will win his trial against deutsche Bahn to replace the ceilling by the original design...


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## GNU

^^ yes, I hope so too.
Nevertheless I think the ceiling is ok,the real problem are the bare walls and pillars


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## HelloMoto163

its very sad thats they not build this tower


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## HelloMoto163

nice pics























































and now the u-bahn


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## FabriFlorence

I love Berlin and its transport system, especially the s-bahn.


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## AmiDelf

There is atleast one subway station in Berlin that differs from the others 

















Osloer Strase is atleast different. Berliner people must like Oslo or something.


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## ScHoKoApFeL

*fgdf*

just found this interesting and kinda confusing map including sbahn, ubahn, metrotram/bus and express bus ;p
(click to enlarge, 3,9 MB !)


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## GNU

AmiDelf said:


> There is atleast one subway station in Berlin that differs from the others


I dissagree.
I felt that compared to other cities berlin had a very nice mix of different station styles.

Here are some pics:

Mexikoplatz underground station:


































Dahlem Dorf undergorund Sation:



































Nikolassee station:











heidelberger Platz:


































witzleben station:


















thielplatz station:


















Heerstarsse station:










Grunewald station:


















Hermannplatz station:

pic wit the old shopping center from the 1920s (the underground station was built directly under the department store)


































U-Bahnhof Podbielskiallee:










Schlesisches tor:


































Warschauer Strasse old picdestroyed)

























buelowstrasse:


















wittenbergplatz:










































stadtmitte:










gleisdreieck:


















and a nice historic pic of dennewitzstrasse:


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## malud

Wahnsinn, vielen Dank für das letzte Bild. Wusste ich gar nicht dass dort so dicht gebaut war. Ist wieder mal traurig wenn man bedenkt wie es heute aussieht.


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## GNU

ja, hab auch lange nach dem Bild im inet gesucht.
(Hatte es zuvor nur in Architekturbuechern gesehen)

Heute sieht die besagte Stelle ja sehr deprimierend aus.Vor allem wenn man weiss wie es mal ausgesehen hat.


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## beta29

Time for more pics:


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## GNU

Gleisdreieck: (one of the big crossings before ww2)









1902
























Kottbusser Tor:









others:









































































































a typical picture: a U-bahn musician:

























Hackescher Markt:

































friedrichstrasse:








pre-war

























alexanderplatz:








Pankow:


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## Momo1435

Nice pictures!

Thanks for sharing them


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## Tricky

*Berlin's new Super-Station officially opened!!!*

Station of dreams a symbol of Berlin's revival









The gargantuan, five-level terminus took more than 10 years to build.

Allan Hall, Berlin
May 27, 2006

EUROPE'S first custom-built railway station in a hundred years has opened in Berlin as a statement of faith in the capital of reunited Germany and of the future of railways in an aircraft age.

The Hauptbahnhof — Main Station — is a cathedral dedicated to the iron horse, a dollop of gigantism in the heart of a city reinventing itself. Even those who never travel by train will be impressed with the architectural shock-and-awe that this Goliath inspires.

Tallest, widest, grandest, boldest — it encapsulates the kind of grandiosity that a previous German ruler called Adolf Hitler plotted for a new super-Reich capital he was to call Germania on the site where Berlin still stands. Those are the parallels the critics of this $A1.2 billion project like to draw.

But mostly the reaction to the Hauptbahnhof is one of pride intermingled with sadness at the departure of a much-loved halt further down the road where the big express trains have pulled in since the end of World War II.

Zoo Bahnhof, which affords travellers the odd glimpse of the llamas and buffaloes at the adjacent animal park, now becomes a regional-trains-only ugly sister to the spanking new Hauptbahnhof.

Germany's single most ambitious building project after the collapse of communism, goes online in time for the World Cup, which kicks off on June 9.

Its statistics, like its location, are impressive. Built on five levels it will handle 300,000 passengers on 750 computer-controlled trains a day that arrive and depart at intervals of just 90 seconds.

The station is the culmination of a dream for Berliners interrupted by bloody wars and partition.

The city fathers have always wanted a New York-style Grand Central Station instead of the plethora of terminals that once dotted the landscape. Now it has one to rival New York's station as a symbol of the newly confident, economically resurgent Germany.

It has been under construction for 11 years on the former no-man's-land between East and West Berlin, adjoining the death strip and old minefields that kept the two Germanies at bay for 40 long years. Passengers will see the German Parliament, the Reichstag, nearby, together with the washing machine-shaped Chancellery, official residence of new German leader Angela Merkel, although she continues to live in a small flat some distance away because the Chancellery — like the station to some — is too grand for her.

The no-man's-land past of the station has been carried to the present: there is little infrastructure. But within the steel-and-glass colossus there are 80 restaurants, bars, underwear shops, perfume boutiques and chemists on three floors.

The station will be the greatest rail junction in Europe, the nexus for trains travelling on all points of the compass in a back-to-the-future revival of the mode of transport that still gives the plane and the car a run for their money on the Continent.

"There have been critics, about style, about costs, about everything, but this is a magnificent achievement," said a Deutsche Bahn spokesman.

BIG PROJECT — BIG STATISTICS

■ 500,000 square metres of reinforced concrete used in the construction. 
■ 1500 kilometres of cables keep the lights on and computers up.

■ 9000 fire sprinklers installed.

■ 1200 loudspeakers inform passengers of arrivals, departures, delays and cancellations.

■ 54 escalators and 49 lifts move the passengers through station.

■ 900 jobs have been created as a result of the construction.

■ 45 homes could be powered for a year through the electricity generating-cells on the roof.


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## AmiDelf

I must say that the design of it, isn`t to good. There is no feel to it for me. No personality,.. its just made to look modern.. but in few years.. maybe 2-3.. the station will be dirty and just another station.

It would be more interesting, if the station got cool design. Something that made it Berlins main station.

Sorry, oki to cellebrate for the finished work, but I just have to give the work nothing more than nice. I expected much more from Germans than this, because I know that they can do better.


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## samsonyuen

Wow, it looks great inside. On the outside it looks like an entertainment complex!


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## ScHoKoApFeL

(c) bahnimbild.de


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## MILIUX

Marvellous! 

Germany is ready for World Cup!


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## Giorgio

Its modern but it looks boring and I think it lacks character. 
Nice lights.


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## Kampflamm

Boring and ugly. They decided to save some money and use simpler designs in order to finish it in time for the World Cup and it certainly shows. Calatrava's station in Lisbon is 10 times better.


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## calenzano

boring and ugly outside. nice inside.


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## BobDaBuilder

Gee, Melbourne certainly got stiched up like a kipper in what it got for its money at the new Spencer St. station as compared to Berlin's Hauptbahnhof.


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## LuckyLuke

Kampflamm said:


> Boring and ugly. They decided to save some money and use simpler designs in order to finish it in time for the World Cup and it certainly shows. Calatrava's station in Lisbon is 10 times better.


Actually the changes costed more and took more time


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## Accura4Matalan

I love it. Its friggin awesome!


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## LuckyLuke

*Major new station opens in Berlin

The biggest railway station in Europe has been inaugurated in Berlin by German Chancellor Angela Merkel.*



A two-day celebration is being held in the German capital to mark the opening of the 700m euros (£480m) Hauptbahnhof.

The station formally opens on Sunday, just two weeks before Germany hosts the football World Cup.

But the festivities were marred when a knifeman attacked spectators leaving the ceremony, injuring at least 19 people, police said.

"A crazy man ran down the street stabbing people arbitrarily," a policeman at the scene told Reuters news agency. 

Police said a 17-year-old youth has been arrested in connection with the attacks.

The glass-roofed structure has been built close to where the Berlin Wall once cut through the capital.

*Symbolic*

The station took eight years to build and for the first time will link the railway lines in the north and south of Berlin with those in the east and west.

Around 300,000 passengers are expected to use it every day. 

"The new transparent central station is a symbol of a modern country that is open to the rest of the world," Ms Merkel said as she inaugurated the five-storey station.

"Standing so close to where the Berlin Wall was, the station represents a bridge that brings the city together," she said.

However, some Berliners have complained that the station is too far from the city's main social and commercial attractions

The 151ft (46m) steel and glass structure dwarfs the nearby parliament buildings of the Reichstag and the Chancellery, where Ms Merkel has her office.

Some reports suggest the overall cost of the station, including reconstruction of the area and rails around it, a road tunnel under it and re-routing the Spree River next to it, was about $13bn.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5022498.stm


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## Kampflamm

LuckyLuke said:


> Actually the changes costed more and took more time


Well, for years you couldn't see any progress and then they just decided to speed up things to get everything done in time for the wc. The original designs looked much better.


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## zergcerebrates

I think this is perhaps one of the best stations in the world. Although on the outside looks boring the inside is stunning the two levels of train platform is awesome, and the scale is stunning.


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## JDRS

It's hardly the most inspiring design but I think it looks really good on the inside and outside and that light show is pretty impressive.


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## Frog

I like the inside, very nice and spacious. the outside is okay except I dont like the box part that goes across the station, it just doesnt fit in with the rest


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## Chilenofuturista

IMPRESSIVE! :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: 

now THIS is Germany to me. Bombastic, ultramodern, efficient, BIG, visionary and futuristic and just beautiful. In true german style. 

I'm sure it would have looked even more beautiful with the original design and I'm a bit sorry for their decision to not stay to the original design, but oh well... I surely adore this anyways.


----------



## Bitxofo

This thread is repeated...
hno:
Go here, please:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=239847&page=4&pp=20
:wink2:


----------



## micro

I wonder if the light beams on top were only for the opening or if they will remain.




Kampflamm said:


> Boring and ugly. They decided to save some money and use simpler designs in order to finish it in time for the World Cup and it certainly shows. Calatrava's station in Lisbon is 10 times better.


It was designed by architects from Hamburg (GMP), which is always a guarantee for a good deal of boredom in the design. :down: 

And the station will make taxi drivers happy because there's nothing around it and it doesn't even have a link with the subway network.


----------



## beta29

That´s a good question......they wanted to open it to the WM2006 but nothing happened!
Then they wanted to start service to the beginning of 2007.....but nothing happened until today....it´s quite strange because you even don´t read anything about opening in a newspaper and the new stations are nearly finished as I know(I saw on photos)

I heard that the next date for opening is the end of 2007....we just always need a bit longer here in Berlin


----------



## Alargule

What about the projects for the rest of U5 (linking the existing U5 to U55 via Unter den Linden), or the U3 line? "Sankt Nimmerlein"?


----------



## AmiDelf

S-Bahn in Berlin looks a bit like the metro in Oslo. One thing to make clear is that I think that the metro wagons which goes in Oslo would break half of its roof or sides when running on Berlin subway tracks


----------



## FabriFlorence

I went to Berlin for Xmas time and I saw many of these station. I think that Berlin U-bahn and S-bahn system is one of the most intresting in the word!


----------



## Dothog

Feuerbachstasse station looks remarkably like some of the one in London.


----------



## micro

^^ Charles Holden and Alfred Grenander: who influenced whom?

Arnos Grove: 1932









Feuerbachstr.: 1933









Southgate: 1933









Cockfosters: 1933









Sundgauer Str.: 1934


----------



## cityskyscrapers

*Photos Berlin U-Bahn*

All photos taken 2004/2005. U-Bahn Golden Oldies and Left-Overs.

1.









2.









3.









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25.


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## milwaukee-københavn

Beautiful photographs. Berlin's metro system looks like a series of palaces connected by trains.


----------



## Justme

I love the rail system of Berlin. It has a great mix of historical and modern stations, both underground and elevated.

The elevated S-bahn ring that winds it's way above the Northern part of the city is my favourite elevated line anywhere. The historical U1 line, with trains not much larger than the smallest London Underground stock also is worth a visit.

Brilliant system for a brilliant city.


----------



## beta29

Berlin needs more attention!!

Soooo underrated in this forum!


----------



## iampuking

Finally, a decent gap.

I like the history, and the livery which sets it apart from others. Is it me or do companies in Berlin like the colour yellow? Hapag Lloyd had their planes painted yellow for their subsidary.


----------



## Maxx☢Power

The taxis have an awful beige vomit-like colour, so maybe it's to make up for that..


----------



## hkskyline

I prefer the S-bahn more. The graffiti problem seems not as bad as some other European cities.


----------



## GNU

Its worse than in other cities imo.
Especially the scratching


----------



## Falubaz

Checker said:


> Its worse than in other cities imo.
> Especially the scratching


u r quite right, Berlin has a big problem with that, and the whole Germany too.


----------



## iampuking

Falubaz said:


> u r quite right, Berlin has a big problem with that, and the whole Germany too.


Most of Western Europe has graffiti as far as i'm aware!


----------



## GNU

typical scratchings:










not typical but still:


----------



## iampuking

Ooh aren't they hard. Break into a station wearing balaclavas to rob a bank, no! Fill a train with explosives, no! Paint it with graffiti, yes! Pathetic :|


----------



## milwaukee-københavn

Has it become fashionable to videotape your own crimes? I've seen a lot of these lately (not the train, the film) and they never fail to amaze me. It is as if they are trying to get caught. Other than that, it wasn't that great of a tag.


----------



## iampuking

milwaukee-københavn said:


> Has it become fashionable to videotape your own crimes? I've seen a lot of these lately (not the train, the film) and they never fail to amaze me. It is as if they are trying to get caught. Other than that, it wasn't that great of a tag.


Becuase they're so desperate to be famous that's why.

They're desperate to have their righting all over a train that many will see, and they're desperate for sados like themselves to think they're 'cool' on Youtube or whatever. What they don't realise, is that most people don't give a toss.


----------



## AmiDelf

*Berlin tramguide (big map)*

This is the tram map of Berlin. It amazes me, as I`ve seen so litle from this huge system. 










It shows what the communist did to Berlin. While on the west, mostly metro was built, on east trams were built.

I wish to see some pics  I have some from line 87, but its kinda outside of Berlin. 

Pics of line 62, line 63 and line 68 atleast. They look interesting to me atleast  

Come on! ...


----------



## Justme

It's a pity still the Western side pulled up their trams. The rest of West Germany pretty much kept their trams, although downsized them as many lines were placed by U-bahns. But Berlin seemed to completely rip them out in the West of the city.

Any chance that they will start expanding again in the West?


----------



## Blijdorp

Vey interesting. Do you know what the total lenght of the system is and the number of stops?


----------



## Justme

^ 189.4km from my list, but that could be outdated. Don't know about the number of stops, you'd have to count them on the map.


----------



## Blijdorp

ha, it might just do that
But it looks bigger then "just" 189km on the map. Anyway maybe this year i'm going to Berlin so i can Check the system out myself.


----------



## gappa

BIG! :shocked:


----------



## hix

I have used the trams when it was still DDR! It's a very nice system. Hopefully they will expand the system to the west.


----------



## beta29

Here are the official facts from 31.12.2006...but I would say it´s not 189,4 km anymore, because there were 2 extensions...so let´s talk about 192km

Verkehrsnetz Straßenbahn
Linienanzahl Tag - Nacht(lines day - night):22 - 9
> davon MetroLinien Tag und Nacht(Metrolines day and night):9 - 9
Streckenlänge (km) Tag - Nacht(track length day - night):189,4 - 103,04
> davon Strecke auf besonderem Bahnkörper (km):108
Linienlänge (km) Tag - Nacht(line length):298,43 - 110,46
Haltestellenbereiche Tag - Nacht(stops):377 - 208
Richtungshaltestellen Tag - Nacht(directionstops??):795 - 406
mittlerer Haltestellenabstand (km)(average distance between stops):0,46
mittlere Beförderungsgeschwindigkeit (average speed):19,21


----------



## beta29

Maybe it´s possible we talk about beautiful pictures of Berlin subway again!?

There´s another Thread for Graffiti!!!


----------



## beta29

*BERLIN - Public Transport Thread*

Seems like every big city gets its own Thread here so.....where´s Berlin!?

Here you´ll find all news, facts and pictures about Berlin transport.

I´ll start posting soon


----------



## hkskyline

Here's my contribution :

Berlin's buses - http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=360457










Berlin's trams - http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=361266


----------



## GNU

Just found this old pic of the station *"Schlesisches Tor"* in Kreuzberg.










*Prinzenstrasse:*











Looked a zillion times better back then...


----------



## Svartmetall

I love the double decker buses! They're almost as nice looking as the London double deckers.

The newest trams in the fleet are really quite nice!


----------



## beta29

@GNU: thanks for this awesome picture from "Schlesisches Tor".
Such beauty.......but it´s so sad, only the 3 buildings on the left survived.....
....on the right side all buildings are gone....i think there´s a park now


----------



## beta29

Near "Schlesisches Tor" today....here you can see the 3 buildings on the left which survived....


----------



## beta29

*New HK Trains*

The "BVG" ordered 20 new HK trains from Bombardier....the first were already delivered. These trains are just for the small profile (U1,U2,U3,U4)

It´s a quite sad story with these trains....they should be delivered in the year 1997....but first there was no money....then the first two trains were delivered but there were some technical problems....now they got it and we need this trains so much....most trains driving on the small profile.....are +40 years old.

For 2011 there´s a new delivery planned....but some new kind of trains called "IK".

Some pics:


----------



## micro

Some pics of stations


----------



## Svartmetall

beta29 said:


> The "BVG" ordered 20 new HK trains from Bombardier....the first were already delivered. These trains are just for the small profile (U1,U2,U3,U4)
> 
> It´s a quite sad story with these trains....they should be delivered in the year 1997....but first there was no money....then the first two trains were delivered but there were some technical problems....now they got it and we need this trains so much....most trains driving on the small profile.....are +40 years old.
> 
> For 2011 there´s a new delivery planned....but some new kind of trains called "IK".


At least the A3 trains were upgraded in 1993. They haven't aged that badly really. At least new stock is coming in 2011! Will the new stock totally replace the old A3 stock or is it going to only be a gap filler for the oldest rolling stock?

The Grossprofil trains seem to be in much better order as their oldest stock is 1990 which is a really reasonable age for metro trains.


----------



## GNU

beta29 said:


> The "BVG" ordered 20 new HK trains from Bombardier....the first were already delivered. These trains are just for the small profile (U1,U2,U3,U4)
> 
> It´s a quite sad story with these trains....they should be delivered in the year 1997....but first there was no money....then the first two trains were delivered but there were some technical problems....now they got it and we need this trains so much....most trains driving on the small profile.....are +40 years old.


I think the U5 and the U9 are already fully equipped with the new HK trains right?




> For 2011 there´s a new delivery planned....but some new kind of trains called "IK".


You got some info on that?


----------



## GNU

beta29 said:


> @GNU: thanks for this awesome picture from "Schlesisches Tor".
> Such beauty.......but it´s so sad, only the 3 buildings on the left survived.....
> ....on the right side all buildings are gone....i think there´s a park now


Yeah its sad isnt it?
So many old buildings have been destroyed in the war, or were pulled down later only to be replaced with those parks that nobody needs anyways..

My favourite would be the old part on the U1 behind the station Bülowstrasse, where the train would pass through a building.
Unfortunately that has been destroyed aswell and nowadays it looks like shite...


----------



## hkskyline




----------



## Svartmetall

^^ I hope so too, it doesn't look like the U55 will do THAT much good as a shuttle alone, it really needs to be fully integrated to the U-bahn network to make the new Hbf more accessable.


----------



## Jackthehammer

Great!!! Keep em coming!!!


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ Yeah I think they're stunning too - by the way there is a Berlin S-bahn thread started by Beta too.


----------



## micro

^^ I don't see what's so special about those 481 trainsets. 
I find the type 480 ones much more striking:


----------



## gappa

Looks very similar to Melbourne's train network. Similar amount of lines, length, rolling stock etc. 

Just a question: how are they powered? I don't see a third rail or overhead wires.


----------



## mrmoopt

There is a 3rd rail, just on the side.


----------



## gappa

cal_t said:


> There is a 3rd rail, just on the side.


Ah ok....stoopid gappa!


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ The S-bahn is very much like the Melbourne network in as much as it is a metro/commuter hybrid with frequencies of 10 minutes within Berlin 7 days a week and 20 minutes out of Berlin (note the Berlin area is not like the "melbourne city" area in size, it is much much bigger as Berlin city proper has a population of 3.4 million). At night it runs less frequently, but even throughout the night after 00:00 on Friday and Saturday night it operates to a frequency of 30 minutes in Berlin and 60 minutes out of Berlin so it is a slightly more frequent network than Melbourne as on the whole it doesn't differentiate between weekend and weekday service.

The S-bahn network is also supplimented by a faster Regionalbahn network which runs from nearby villages and towns into Berlin. These offer a limited stop service. It is also supplimented within the city with the U-bahn network which is the metro system of Berlin. You can see it shown in grey on the map at the top of the page. In the east of the city it is also supplimented by the metro-tram which is a largely grade separated tram network which runs at 10 minute frequencies. There are also normal trams but these don't run as frequently.


----------



## Songoten2554

wow the S-bahn is unique and that part of the railway is unique as it has Third Rail on one side for the S-bahns and Overhead Wires on the other side for the Regional, Intercity and High Speed ICE Trains very cool

and London i think has now an S-bahn type called the London Overground it started recently a few days ago


----------



## Justme

I love Berlin's S-bahn network. The central elevated section is possibly the coolest elevated line in any city in the world. Some great stations along it.

There is also an S-bahn restaurant train (using an historical train) has anyone got pictures of this?


----------



## Justme

Songoten2554 said:


> wow the S-bahn is unique and that part of the railway is unique as it has Third Rail on one side for the S-bahns and Overhead Wires on the other side for the Regional, Intercity and High Speed ICE Trains very cool
> 
> and London i think has now an S-bahn type called the London Overground it started recently a few days ago


It's not that unique. Nearly every city in Germany has an S-bahn network, although Berlin's was the first from what I know, and the most famous. France and Spain also has their own versions of S-bahns in their major cities, in fact many European cities do.


----------



## Justme

gappa said:


> Looks very similar to Melbourne's train network. Similar amount of lines, length, rolling stock etc.
> 
> Just a question: how are they powered? I don't see a third rail or overhead wires.


Not really. The S-bahn (in general description) is similar to Australian, and Melbourne's rail network - in that it is a primarily suburban service that in bundled area's acts almost like a metro. Also in that the trains don't terminate in the city centers but usually continue out the other side.

But Berlin is different to Melbourne in that it has a circular line, it has many elevated sections (the most well known is through the central city) and the stations are vastly different in style.

Also keep in mind that the S-bahn is only one of several different heavy rail options for Berlin, where as the rail network in Melbourne is the only type. In Berlin you also have an extensive U-bahn system (proper metro) and the regional bahns (which operate as express commuter trains in Berlin's metro - often on fully dedicated lines, i.e. extra routes above the S-bahn)


----------



## Svartmetall

Justme said:


> It's not that unique. Nearly every city in Germany has an S-bahn network, although Berlin's was the first from what I know, and the most famous. France and Spain also has their own versions of S-bahns in their major cities, in fact many European cities do.


I guess one way in which the S-bahn is unique is that it is also supplimented by Regionalbahn trains which provide the more limited stop and far flung services in the cities regional areas. 

Berlin and Hamburg are the only S-bahn's in Germany to run on third rail power though, which is pretty unique to both of those S-bahns.

And Justme - we seem to be parroting each other a lot with our answers! My response to Gappa was very similar to yours!


----------



## gappa

Justme said:


> Not really. The S-bahn (in general description) is similar to Australian, and Melbourne's rail network - in that it is a primarily suburban service that in bundled area's acts almost like a metro. Also in that the trains don't terminate in the city centers but usually continue out the other side.
> 
> But Berlin is different to Melbourne in that it has a circular line, it has many elevated sections (the most well known is through the central city) and the stations are vastly different in style.
> 
> Also keep in mind that the S-bahn is only one of several different heavy rail options for Berlin, where as the rail network in Melbourne is the only type. In Berlin you also have an extensive U-bahn system (proper metro) and the regional bahns (which operate as express commuter trains in Berlin's metro - often on fully dedicated lines, i.e. extra routes above the S-bahn)


Yes I know - gappa may be stoopid, but he's not that stoopid!


----------



## Justme

gappa said:


> Yes I know - gappa may be stoopid, but he's not that stoopid!


Oh, I never thought you were stupid. I apologize if my post hinted at that :cheers:


----------



## Svartmetall

Are there any expansions on the cards for the S-bahn? I know that the U-bahn has been ceased apart from the U55 - U5 extension because the city has run out of money (and believes that the current system is extensive enough).


----------



## beta29

No, not on this map...but I have another one....


..but notice, most of this maybe will be built in the year 2124


----------



## beta29

I found a picture from 1902, it shows the beautiful elevated station "Nollendorfplatz".




Today it looks so ugly, it´s hard to find words for this


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ I don't think the current one looks that bad!


----------



## GNU

Really?

Id prefer this anyday:










Too bad that the square is gone aswell, as a result of the heavy fighting that occured there during the battle of Berlin.

Soviet soldiers storming a U-Bahn entrance in 1945:


----------



## micro

Nolli today - only a skeleton of its former self:


----------



## Hybrid 87

Can someone post a pic of how does today look that place where the U-Bahn went through that building?


----------



## GNU

Heres an aerial pic of that area:










You can see two modern residential houses in the upper right corner and one below under the U-Bahn tracks. (disregard the green arrow)
That was the spot where the U-Bahn used to pass through the buidlings.
As you can see, the old buildings are all gone now, and have been replaced with these modern buidlings.

Historic pic showing the train coming from the station Bülowstr to approach that buidlding underpass




















This is the same spot shortly after the war:










The Bülowstr. station:










The station Nollendorfplatz after ww2 and the heavy fighting that occured there:



















Underground station Stadtmitte in the 30s:











very comprehensive site for the Berlin U-Bahn:

http://www.berliner-untergrundbahn.de/


----------



## beta29

Here are some quite nice subway entrances!









Believe it or not...yes, this is a metro entrance!










The famous Wittenbergplatz station:


----------



## beta29

some more pictures....


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ Fantastic photos of the S-bahn! Thank you very much!


----------



## Svartmetall

Thanks for the photos again Beta, some of those stations looks really amazing - especially this one:


----------



## Azia

*will there be..*

will there be an expand line to falkensee in 2015 ?


----------



## city_thing

I remember arriving in Berlin by air, and catching a train from Shonefeld to Warcshauer (spelling?) station.

The train was one of these ones:










We couldn't believe how ugly and gross it looked 

But we loved Berlin anyway. It's my favourite city on Earth.


----------



## Svartmetall

Lovely decor... NOT! :crazy:

I know that the S-bahn rolling stock had a huge refit recently.

EDIT: This is the standard new interior for S-bahn trains:


----------



## Isek

^^^

these are some special "anti-graffiti-decor". they are designed to be "unattractive" for graffiti tagging. once you would tag that decor, you'll be not able to read your tag properly.


----------



## Justme

When I was last in Berlin, there was an S-bahn dining train using some beautiful old stock. Does anyone know the website for this?


----------



## Falubaz

Berliner S-Bahn is my favourite one in Germany and it has one of the best trians for metro-like service in the city. i like most the sound when speeding or arriving at the station. i got it on my cell phone as a riong bell.


----------



## brisbanite

I was in Berlin a couple of years ago and absolutely loved it and is one of my favourite cities. Unfortunatley though I only have one photo to show of the s-bahn. I cannot remember what the area is called where I took the photo but it was where all the museums are.


----------



## Svartmetall

Falubaz said:


> Berliner S-Bahn is my favourite one in Germany and it has one of the best trians for metro-like service in the city. i like most the sound when speeding or arriving at the station. i got it on my cell phone as a riong bell.


I thought I was the only one who really liked the sound of the S-bahn! It's even nicer than the new H and HK series trains on the U-bahn. Oh dear, transit geek inside me talking...

I reckon S-bahns are a fantastic idea in general though, and Hamburg and Berlin have two of the best.


----------



## BauIng

Nice pics !!


----------



## Falubaz

some my pics of the best S-Bahn from my last visit in BLN (7-9. dec.'08)

somewhere on the Ring-line (S42, S41) 









Friedrichstraße



















not sure which station is it









Olympiastadion


----------



## Svartmetall

Great shots, thanks for sharing!


----------



## city_thing

Makes me miss berlin so much!

Especially Freidrichstrasse station. I remember going there to buy Wodka a few times.

Feel like going back to Berlin for a holiday with me Svartmetall?


----------



## Svartmetall

city_thing said:


> Makes me miss berlin so much!
> 
> Especially Freidrichstrasse station. I remember going there to buy Wodka a few times.
> 
> Feel like going back to Berlin for a holiday with me Svartmetall?


Haha! Sounds like a plan, I know I won't object to seeing Germany again that's for sure! If only I wasn't a poor student...


----------



## city_thing

I was a poor student when I visited as well. But it seemed like everyone else in Berlin was as well. Which is what made it an awesome city 

Gah, give me Kreuzberg over Sydney any day!


----------



## edubejar

I'm starting to like the Berlin S-Bahn over the Paris RER (except line RER E whose style I like a lot), especially since I got to visit Berlin for the first time last year.

Notice that the circular line looks like the profile of a dog face. I read somewhere that Berliners nickname it some word that refers to that


----------



## GNU

Justme said:


> When I was last in Berlin, there was an S-bahn dining train using some beautiful old stock. Does anyone know the website for this?


Do you mean the Panoramazug?

http://www.s-bahn-berlin.de/sonderzuege/panorama-sbahn/index.htm

there are also historic trainsets but they dont seem to be running at the moment:

http://www.s-bahn-berlin.de/sonderzuege/index.html


----------



## Justme

GNU said:


> Do you mean the Panoramazug?
> 
> http://www.s-bahn-berlin.de/sonderzuege/panorama-sbahn/index.htm
> 
> there are also historic trainsets but they dont seem to be running at the moment:
> 
> http://www.s-bahn-berlin.de/sonderzuege/index.html


Thanks for looking into this, but no, I don't think it was any from those links. The carriages had tables and there were waiters. It seemed a proper restaurant in a historical S-bahn train. But I only saw it for a few moments.


----------



## Dinivan

Svartmetall said:


> I guess one way in which the S-bahn is unique is that it is also supplimented by Regionalbahn trains which provide the more limited stop and far flung services in the cities regional areas.


Dunno about France, but the Spanish S-Bahn does have this regional trains that have a limited number of stops and travel far from the main city.

BTW, the new train station of Berlin looks great... but it's fuckingly freezing! nobody thought they were going to build that thing in one of the coldest European cities? I once missed a train to Leipzig and thank God McDonals was opened for much of the night, otherwise I would have waved Ms. Death there :lol:


----------



## Xabi

I'm very excited with my travel to Berlin next summer.

It looks one of most interesting cities of Europe, no doubt!


----------



## city_thing

^^^ You'll love it! It's a brilliant city. I would love to live there one day.


----------



## edubejar

Xabi said:


> I'm very excited with my travel to Berlin next summer.
> 
> It looks one of most interesting cities of Europe, no doubt!


I think you'll enjoy Berlin! After having visited London, Paris and Madrid several times I felt like I had visited the best (in size and # of things to offer) that Western Europe had. Berlin was a pleasant break and addition to that list.


----------



## schmidt

10 days for Berlin!!!

I'll be living in Lichtenberg, near the Tierpark (U5).


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ U5 is certainly the most...... Interesting of all the lines that's for sure!

You'll have to take lots of pictures Schmidt and let us know your views on the city (and the transport!)


----------



## schmidt

^^ Hmmmm I didn't like your hesitation!


----------



## Svartmetall

Well, East Berlin though greatly improved is very much still the poorer sector of the city, and it shows still. The U5 is the main underground line that runs through that area and so it too tends to attract the poorer section of the population. 

Many people say it has far more beggers and homeless in the stations and on the trains, though I'm not sure how true this really is, I didn't notice it... But I'd love to see your impression of it all when you're there all the same! Keep us updated!


----------



## schmidt

^^ Won't be shocking for me. After all, I'm coming from Brazil.


----------



## HelloMoto163

ive never saw a homeless at the U5


----------



## Pberg

The U5 is one of the shorter lines in Berlin. Personally I've never had much reason to travel on it.

Schmidt, I'm sure you're going to love Berlin and it's great that you're coming with an open mind. I don't want to put you off, but be aware, Lichtenberg, although not soo bad, does have a bit of a reputation and may not give you a great impression of what the city as a whole has to offer...


----------



## schmidt

^^ Even Karlshorst? I read it's a pretty good part of Lichtenberg heheh.


----------



## Pberg

Well if that's what you've read then great! Wherever you end up living I'm sure you will have a fantastic time..


----------



## Svartmetall

Personally I thought that the distinction between West and East was changing rather a lot with the distinction between the two being blurred more recently with some up and coming "trendy" areas in the east - who knows, parts of Lichtenberg might become very desirable someday due to the presence of Tierpark there.


----------



## Pberg

Hmm, is it just me or is there a difference in perception of districs inside the Ringbahn, as opposed to those lying outside of it? They've been touting Weißensee as the next big thing since I've lived here, especially as places like Prenzlauer Berg become more and more expensive. However, if you go there you see there's still a ways to go before it can compete. The problem for places like Weißensee and Lichtenberg is that it's much further out from the action and the quality of the housing stock in places like Lichtenberg (correct me if i'm wrong, but there's a lot of Plattenbau there?) leaves a lot to be desired.


----------



## serdar samanlı1

Pix please!


----------



## Tramwayman

Flexity Berlin from Bombardier


----------



## Filip7370

Are those cars double ended?


----------



## Anekdote

Beautiful tram, I like the color and the design.. looks like the subwaytrains.


----------



## serdar samanlı1

Holy god, what a long tram!


----------



## kato2k8

Filip7370 said:


> Are those cars double ended?


There are four prototypes:
- single-ended 30m (6-axle, 5 modules)
- double-ended 30m (6-axle, 5 modules)
- single-ended 40m (8-axle, 7 modules)
- double-ended 40m (8-axle, 7 modules)

That there is the double-ended 40m version.



serdar samanlı;31642726 said:


> Holy god, what a long tram!


40m is pretty much a standard length for modern high-capacity single trams in Germany. Variobahn trams are the same length in 8-axle versions.


----------



## Filip7370

May I ask are in Berlin non-loop ended tram lines?


----------



## WotaN

Filip7370 said:


> May I ask are in Berlin non-loop ended tram lines?


Yes there are, i.e. Warschauer Strasse.


----------



## beta29

This a quite nice map about the actual tram netwok in berlin...











And some pics...:banana:


----------



## beta29

So I think it´s time for an update....

The U55 stations are nearly finished now....have a look! opening: hopefully in August 2009

*U-Hauptbahnhof *(central-station)



























*U-Bundestag*


----------



## beta29

*A3L71 train between Warschauer Str. and Gleisdreieck (U1)*


----------



## beta29

*Information about U55:*




> U55 is a Berlin U-Bahn line that is currently under construction. When completed, it will be very short (only three stations) and will not connect to any other U-Bahn line. It was constructed as part of an extension of the U5 that was postponed due to financial difficulties. As much of the work on this section of the extension had been completed, it was decided to complete it and open the section as a short shuttle line using a single train, to be joined to the U5 at a later date.
> 
> The unusual nature of U55 is a result of Berlin's troubled finances. When the German government decided to move from Bonn to Berlin after German reunification, it was decided to refurbish the area around the Reichstag into a modern government complex. As part of this effort, there were plans to extend line U5 from its current western terminus at Alexanderplatz through the city centre, past the Brandenburg Gate and the Reichstag, to the new central train station, Berlin Hauptbahnhof. This Kanzlerlinie (Chancellor Line), so nicknamed because it passed through the government quarter, was originally planned as a diagonal line through central Berlin, continuing to Turmstraße in Moabit, where it would link with the U9, and on to Jungfernheide, where it would connect with the S-Bahn ring and U7, and possibly continue to Berlin-Tegel airport, or if this is closed as planned, to the new neighbourhoods to be built in its place. As this was a long-planned route, short tunnels exist at both Jungfernheide and Turmstraße to accommodate the new line. However, these plans were cut back for financial reasons before construction began, and the line was planned instead to terminate at the Hauptbahnhof, with the route to Jungfernheide to be built at an unspecified later date.
> 
> In the late 1990s, construction began on the western end of this extension. However, around that time the city council suffered a major financial crisis, and in 1999 completion of the partially built extension was postponed indefinitely.
> 
> However, the city had accepted money from the German federal government for the construction work already finished, and by the terms of the agreement, the city would have had to return the money if there were no operating trains on the line. In 2004, the city and federal governments reached a compromise: the city would complete the short section of line that was largely complete between Berlin Hauptbahnhof and Unter den Linden S-Bahn stations and run it as a single-track shuttle with a single train, without any signaling. Although transit planners do not project that such a shuttle will attract a significant ridership, the city determined that the cost of building and operating the line would be less than the cost of returning the money to the federal government.
> 
> *The opening of the line between Berlin Hauptbahnhof and Brandenburger Tor has been delayed owing to extreme groundwater problems at the site of the latter new station. Currently (late 2008) the intended opening date is 8 August 2009[1]. The designation of the line as U55 indicates that it is ultimately intended to connect this extension to U5. Work linking the two must begin by 2010 or subsidy from the federal government will be withdrawn; at the moment, 2009 is the target for the beginning of construction of this section.*
> 
> Because the U55 is not physically connected to the rest of the U-Bahn system, any trains being delivered to the new line will need to be towed along mainline or S-Bahn tracks to reach a connecting tunnel near Hauptbahnhof.


----------



## city_thing

Looks like someone's abandoned their baby!

This thread is terrible, it makes me miss Berlin so much.

It's annoying that the U55 hasn't been connected to the U5 too.


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ It will be though, which is the main thing.


----------



## flierfy

Svartmetall said:


> Are there any expansions on the cards for the S-bahn?


The S9/S45 is going to be expanded beyond its present terminus at Schönefeld to the new airport terminal of BBI (Berlin Brandenburg International). The extension and the new station in the basement of the terminal will open in time with the terminal itself which is expected to be in 2011.

The construction of a second north-south-line is still proposed. This line will short-cut the circle line and serve Lehrter Bf and Potsdamer Platz among other stations. It is basically the whole purpose of this line the improve the reachability of Berlins new main station which is certainly needed.
The new line will diverge from the northern section of the circle line between Westhafen and Wedding and rejoin the southern part between Schöneberg and Südkreuz. A first part of this line could be open from the northern circle line to Lehrter Bf by 2015.


----------



## historyworks

Tramwayman said:


> Flexity Berlin trams are super beautiful I like them a lot. cool.
> I hope Berlin gets more of this trams soon.


I thought you like Skoda ForCity best Tramwayman! You know they will beat the pants off Flexity LOL! 

beta29's map certainly seems to show the stunning difference between the tramway philosophy of the former Comecon countries and the west!


----------



## Svartmetall

historyworks said:


> I thought you like Skoda ForCity best Tramwayman! You know they will beat the pants off Flexity LOL!
> 
> beta29's map certainly seems to show the stunning difference between the tramway philosophy of the former Comecon countries and the west!


East Berlin has very little U-bahn connectivity (outside of Mitte) in comparison to the West so it really is a case of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other!


----------



## beta29

Here is some more information about the 2nd north-south-line...called S21

The blue coloured part is the S21 project:











And here the S21 project is red...











It´s planned to finish the first part until 2016(the northern Hauptbahnhof part)

For the southern part, the construction should start in the year 2018.


----------



## beta29

Here are some very actual pics from "project Ostkreuz"

Just for info again what I´m talking about...this one here...:











And that´s how it looks like now...a lot has been done!




























This will be the now platform for the ring line:


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ Fantastic. I'm glad to see that works are getting done on the Ostkreuz site. 

Also, thank you Flierfy and Beta for the updates on the prospective new S-bahn alignment.


----------



## Northsider

I just got back from Berlin, I absolutely loved the Sbahn.



> I'm starting to like the Berlin S-Bahn over the Paris RER


I'd take the Sbahn over the RER any day. The RER for me was slow and every car smelled like poo.


----------



## DiggerD21

For already some weeks the S-Bahn is operating with reduced number of trainsets and lower intervalls.
For at least the next two weeks only 1/3 of the S-Bahn fleet is in operation. The track between Zoologischer Garten and Ostbahnhof is not being served at all during that time!

To cope with the masses of public transport users:
- Deutsche Bahn will run several additional Regional Express trains between Zoologischer Garten and Ostbahnhof
- More busses and trams
- ferry lines on the river Spree

Normal S-Bahn operation is expected to start again in December.

Reason for these complications:
S-Bahn Berlin hasn't properly maintained their fleet. After an accident due to broken wheels some weeks ago the Federal Railway Authority has now put 2/3 of the S-Bahn fleet out of service in order to check them.

Background:
S-Bahn Berlin is a subsidiary company of Deutsche Bahn AG. Critics complain that in order to make Deutsche Bahn AG fit for a launch on the stock exchange, S-Bahn Berlin had to transfer 14% of their earnings as profit to Deutsche Bahn AG. Usual are 4-5%. That means that S-Bahn Berlin had much less money left for operation and maintenance.


----------



## Falubaz

This is a joke, right? Berliner S-Bahn is one of the best systems! And they have one of the best trains as well! It's a shame!


----------



## Svartmetall

All hail market economics. They make the world a much better place. :|

A great shame to hear that the system has suffered as a result of dodgy business practices. Is it possible that another company could take the tender for the Berlin S-bahn?


----------



## DiggerD21

Yes, it could be possible. But only when the current service contract between the city of Berlin and S-Bahn Berlin is about to expire.

I have read in Hamburg this could be possible from 2014 when the contract between City of Hamburg and S-Bahn Hamburg will expire.


----------



## hoosier

Svartmetall said:


> All hail market economics. They make the world a much better place. :|


Bingo. This makes the EU's forced privatization of intercity rail operations all the more angering. But hey, if something is going to make a few people a lot of money and **** over the public- the government will endorse it wholeheartedly!!:bash:


----------



## hkskyline

*Budget woes cut metro line through Berlin's historic heart *
6 August 2009
Agence France Presse

A new metro line will open Saturday in the heart of Berlin, but its planned route was cut in half as building costs exploded, underlining the poor financial state of affairs in the German capital.

Thousands of Berliners are expected to attend the inauguration of U-Bahn Line 55 linking the landmark Brandenburg Gate, Chancellor Angela Merkel's imposing offices and the city's ultramodern main train station.

But soaring costs and doubts about the necessity of the line in the cash-strapped city are overshadowing the party.

Local media have dubbed the link "The Chancellor Line" or less flatteringly, "The Stump" because of its curtailed route and lack of connections to other metro trains.

The route takes three minutes to ride but cost 320 million euros (460 million dollars) to build -- 25 percent more than earmarked for that part of the planned route.

Meanwhile Berlin is about 60 billion euros in debt -- more than 17,000 euros for each citizen of the reunited city -- due in part to the end of lavish federal subsidies for its western half while it was still a divided Cold War outpost.

Under plans approved in 1994 -- five years after the Berlin Wall fell -- the line was to stretch to the Alexanderplatz commercial centre, a showcase of communist-era prefab architecture just over a kilometre (mile) away, under the Unter den Linden boulevard running through the east of the city.

But Mayor Klaus Wowereit pulled the plug soon after his election in 2001, saying the city could not afford the luxury of a route which is already well-served by buses and commuter trains.

However existing contracts prevented the plans from being scrapped entirely, leading to the construction of the abbreviated Line 55.

"This is a typical case of Berlin's delusions of grandeur ending up a flop," said Jens Wieseke from an association public transport users in Berlin.

"A (wealthy) city like Zurich might be able to pay for it but not Berlin which is broke."

The BVG metropolitan transport service estimates that only about 6,400 people a day will use Line 55, versus an average of about 135,000 for each of the nine existing lines in Berlin's sprawling underground network.

The extension of the new line to Alexanderplatz, which binding construction contracts stipulate must begin by next year, is expected to cost another 400 million euros.


----------



## Utopian

I love the sound the Heulsuse makes make it enters a station, it's very recognizable! 
And I think the system is perfect: fast, takes you right into the centre ánd you can actually see the surrounding buildings, and it's great you can still see the differences Ost-West in the style/atmosphere of the S-Bahn-stations.

I love the S-Bahn in Berlin much more then the U-Bahn.


----------



## Justme

Svartmetall said:


> All hail market economics. They make the world a much better place. :|


Actually, market economics is the best system for a great deal of trade and business. This is easily proved by comparing with countries that don't have market economies. We certainly wouldn't be communicating like this on the Internet today in opposite ends of the world if governments were relied upon for technological innovation, development and deployment.

That said, the one model simply doesn't work in all circumstances. Public transport is one area which is generally better suited to government control and funding. It is a public service more than anything else.


----------



## LtBk

Is the EU going to force privatization of railway companies?


----------



## Qtya

Any pics of the U55 in operation?


----------



## rheintram

I always really liked Berlin's S-Bahn, but there has been a lack of investment in the last two decades: The modern train control system is still not operating and the current system is absolutely outdated, it's a mechanical system.


----------



## flierfy

Qtya said:


> Any pics of the U55 in operation?


This one and the ones that follow in that set.


----------



## Qtya

flierfy said:


> This one and the ones that follow in that set.


^^Thanx!kay:


----------



## bozata90

LtBk said:


> Is the EU going to force privatization of railway companies?


No, but it is going to open the markets for competition, like it did with the airlines...


----------



## GEwinnen




----------



## rheintram

I'm not impressed at all by this ridiculously short line. The architecture is rather dull and boring, the only trainset seems to be the oldest one they could find in all of Berlin and the whole line works with only one platform. Even on the opening day that seems to work just fine... Soon this line will change nicknames: from chancellor's u-bahn to ghost-u-bahn.
-


----------



## rheintram

Actually Germany is a great example, that competition - if done correctly - can benefit PT. Up till a few years ago, rail transport in the south of Bavaria was terrible. These days Arriva operates trains between Lindau and Munich and the quality really improved a lot.


----------



## DiggerD21

rheintram said:


> Actually Germany is a great example, that competition - if done correctly - can benefit PT. Up till a few years ago, rail transport in the south of Bavaria was terrible. These days Arriva operates trains between Lindau and Munich and the quality really improved a lot.


The same in Northern Germany. In the early 2000's Hamburg, Bremen and Lower Saxony have together founded their own railway company: Metronom. The service, quality and punctuality have improved a lot since then and nowadays Arriva is the biggest shareholder of this company which operates the regional lines Hamburg-Uelzen-Hannover-Göttingen, Hamburg-Bremen and Hamburg-Cuxhaven.

OK, that was now off-topic.:bash:


----------



## flierfy

A few more pictures of all three stations of the new underground line.


----------



## Yetzirah231

Are they still working on... or planning to extend this line towards Alexanderplatz?

In April and May I was in Berlin, enjoyed it very much, incl. the subways...


----------



## urbanfan89

What took so much time and money to build such a short tunnel?

Was tunnelling performed with spoons, or is there a secret military bunker included?


----------



## Gag Halfrunt

^^ Read the article at the top of the thread if you haven't already.


----------



## Schliemann

beta29 said:


> Here is some more information about the 2nd north-south-line...called S21
> 
> And here the S21 project is red...


Is the U21 not suppose to connect to the U55/U5 at the station called Reichstag on the pic?

And just out of interest is the "Ost-West-S-Bahn" from 1938/1965, no longer planned. I would have thougt it would provide a needed line into Treptow.


----------



## flierfy

Schliemann said:


> Is the U21 not suppose to connect to the U55/U5 at the station called Reichstag on the pic?


No, the Bundestag station of the U5 is located north west of the Reichstag on the west side of the Paul-Löbe building.
The proposed station on the S21 would be built on the east side of the Reichstag. If it's going to be built at all. There are suggestions to save some money by discarding this station.



Schliemann said:


> And just out of interest is the "Ost-West-S-Bahn" from 1938/1965, no longer planned. I would have thougt it would provide a needed line into Treptow.


There are no such proposals any more. The S21 is the only intended extension of the S-Bahn network within the circle line (S4).


----------



## Schliemann

Yes the Reichstag would useless when it comes to changing between lines, since it connects at Potsdammer Platz and Hauptbahnhof. And the area is already served by the U55/U5 and could therefor easily be discarded.


----------



## Schliemann

So what big projects with the U-Bahn are still in the planning. The 200 km line? Or maybe extention of the U4 to Prenzlauer Berg via Hauptbahnhof?


----------



## Schliemann

When they extend the U1 to Frankfurter Tor do you think they will build a totally new station at Warschauer Straße? The S-Bahn station could certanly benefit from a better layout and the distance between the S and U is unnessisary long. Since the U1 runs at streetlevel they could easily build a very good connecting station by the bridge.


----------



## city_thing

^^ I used to use that transfer a lot. The walk from the U-Bahn to the S-Bahn is quite long indeed.


----------



## davsot

Berlin has some cool subway stations. Thx 4 the pics.


----------



## JoKo65

Schliemann said:


> So what big projects with the U-Bahn are still in the planning. The 200 km line? Or maybe extention of the U4 to Prenzlauer Berg via Hauptbahnhof?


No big projects only one project, the U5 to Hauptbahnhof, there is no money for other big projects, Berlin is a poor city. They are thinking about closing lines, the U4 for example, because they have not enough money.


----------



## Darryl

Does anyone have photos of what the new Brandenburger Tor U-Bahn station looks like from the outside? I'm interested in how Pariser Platz/Unter den Linden looks now that the construction fences etc... are gone.


----------



## DiggerD21

Since last tuesday there is a reduced S-Bahn-service again! Only 25% of all trains are in operation! Reason: During a routine inspection at a S-Bahn-carriage it was found that 4 out of 8 brakes were defunct. Now ALL S-Bahn trains in Berlin have to be checked again!



> News - reduced timetable from 08. september 2009
> English informations
> 
> Dear Passengers,
> 
> Owing to safety-critical inspection work which has become necessary at short notice, we are currently unfortunately unable to ensure a fixed timetable. We are however endeavouring to offer services at 20-minute intervals on all lines operating. Please use regional transport, the underground, buses and trams as an alternative.
> 
> the following sections are currently not at service:
> 
> * Alexanderplatz <> Westkreuz
> * Westkreuz <> Nikolassee
> * Westkreuz <> Spandau
> * Wartenberg <> Springpfuhl
> * Schöneweide <> Spindlersfeld
> * Strausberg <> Strausberg Nord (between Strausberg and Strausberg Nord alternative service by bus)



Map with the limited service. All lines with an "x" are not in operation. 23 stations are closed now.


----------



## hoosier

Justme said:


> Actually, market economics is the best system for a great deal of trade and business. This is easily proved by comparing with countries that don't have market economies. We certainly wouldn't be communicating like this on the Internet today in opposite ends of the world if governments were relied upon for technological innovation, development and deployment.
> 
> .


The U.S. government invented the Internet doofus. It was a creation of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) in 1969.


----------



## Justme

hoosier said:


> The U.S. government invented the Internet doofus. It was a creation of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) in 1969.


Wow. What sort of person just calls another a doofus over a discussion like this? Did you never learn any social etiquette when you were a child, or are you still one?

Yes, the US government invented the basic technology behind the Internet, but the fact you are using it now has nothing to do with the government but private companies who invested into the technology and developed the, further. Just look at government designed technology for consumers and you can see how bad they usually are.

By the way, the internet as you use it today, the World Wide Web, Web Servers and the browser to use it was invented by a Brit called Tim Berners-Lee at CERN in Switzerland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web 

But it was Microsoft that brought it to the everyday user with the release of Windows 95. And it was other companies that developed and evolved both the software and hardware that made it possible for everyone, including you to use it on a daily basis.

If the government was solely responsible for the technology needed for the hardware and software of a global internet device in every home of the developed world, I can assure you that we would not have it today.


----------



## nr23Derek

Hi - my first post to Skyscraper city so be gentle. :banana:

I haven't been to Berlin since 1996 (for a Love Parade actually), I used to go a lot when it had it's wall back in the 80's. Back then the S-Bahn was a very neglected system, I seem to think it was run by the GDR (the old East Berlin) and only one or two lines were still running in the western section and there were lots of derelict stations. The trains then looked much the same as now, but had hard wooden seats.

On my first visit in 1981 we took an S bahn from Wannsee into the city and were told off by some West Berlin friends for using it, Westerners only used the U-bahn back then.

Anyway, just showing me age.

Derek


----------



## LtBk

Hoosier is one of those wannabe leftists, so don't take his posts seriously Justme.


----------



## rheintram

nr23Derek said:


> On my first visit in 1981 we took an S bahn from Wannsee into the city and were told off by some West Berlin friends for using it, Westerners only used the U-bahn back then.


hey derek! Actually your story is quite interesting. Do you happen to have some photos from those days?


----------



## nr23Derek

rheintram said:


> hey derek! Actually your story is quite interesting. Do you happen to have some photos from those days?


Very few I'm afraid and most of what I did take was of the wall I think but I'll have a dig through the box. Berlin used to be a very special place when it had its wall, I must go back sometime to see what's left, but somehow I fear it's become just another city - although for all our sakes it's probably a good thing!

Derek


----------



## DiggerD21

No, Berlin hasn't become to "just another city". There is still a mental divide in east and west among many original Berliners. And it is probably the only capital in Europe where it is cheaper to live than in other major cities of the country. That attracts a lot of the arts and subcultural scene, which makes Berlin still special today, just in a positive context.


----------



## rheintram

Well on the other hand I think its a shame how Berlin treated its 'heritage'. No doubt the wall was unwanted, but demolishing it like that - except for a short section somewhere off the beaten track - was just wrong. Same goes for destroying "Palast der Republik". A fake checkpoint charlie (yes the original one was demolished too of course) can't make up for that


----------



## City-Kelle

Personally I think that there are enough pieces of the Wall and Berlin in general made a big step forward in the right way. Its edginess and vibrant scene is a vast attraction for people around the world.


----------



## city_thing

nr23Derek said:


> Hi - my first post to Skyscraper city so be gentle. :banana:
> 
> I haven't been to Berlin since 1996 (for a Love Parade actually), I used to go a lot when it had it's wall back in the 80's. Back then the S-Bahn was a very neglected system, I seem to think it was run by the GDR (the old East Berlin) and only one or two lines were still running in the western section and there were lots of derelict stations. The trains then looked much the same as now, but had hard wooden seats.
> 
> On my first visit in 1981 we took an S bahn from Wannsee into the city and were told off by some West Berlin friends for using it, Westerners only used the U-bahn back then.
> 
> Anyway, just showing me age.
> 
> Derek


You are cooler than you'll ever know.

I wish I'd been able to visit Berlin in the 80s. I bet you went to Manchester in the 80s and saw early New Order concerts too, didn't you? Lucky bastard.

GRRR SO JEALOUS!


----------



## City-Kelle

Me too. I love the 80s.


----------



## sarflonlad

Favourite city on the continent... and the s-bahn is integral to that.

Long live my memories of Berlin - and those to come in the future!


----------



## Baron Hirsch

Funny, none of you seems to know what is going on with the S-Bahn these recent months....

Berlin S-Bahn debacle may cost Deutsche Bahn dearly

Published: 10 Sep 09 14:30 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/national/20090910-21845.html

Berlin’s mayor sharply criticised the operators of the city’s crippled S-Bahn transport system on Thursday amid reports Deutsche Bahn faces losses of several hundred million euros for the botched commuter rail service.

After another safety scandal left just 25 percent of the fleet in service this week on top of an already reduced schedule, the Berlin city government said it will give the company just a €5 million of its usual €20-million monthly payment in September.

“The privatisation was obviously taken too seriously here,” Berlin Mayor Klaus Wowereit told broadcaster ZDF on Thursday morning, referencing Deutsche Bahn's plans to go public before the financial crisis hit.

Wowereit also said the company had been “trimmed for profit” and scandalously lost sight of safety concerns at its subsidiaries like the S-Bahn.

Parliamentary liaison to the Transportation Ministry Achim Großmann divulged that he asked a recent board meeting when “circumstances appropriate to western civilisation would again prevail.”

Delays and reduced service began on July 20 to inspect faulty train axles after a derailment. Service wasn’t expected to return to normal until December when this week the company announced a problem with brakes that needed immediate attention – cutting service again by 75 percent.

Meanwhile the Financial Times Deutschland reported that the continued incompetence will likely cost Deutsche Bahn a “few hundred million euros.”

The paper also alleged it had gathered evidence that S-Bahn workers had intentionally filled out safety forms incorrectly to say that brake parts had been replaced, even though they had not actually been repaired.

The debacle will likely tear a dangerous hole into Deutsche Bahn head Rüdiger Grube’s 2009 budget, in addition to destroying his political credibility, the paper said.

Berlin state prosecutors are also investigating S-Bahn executives over the mismanagement that led to the chaos. S-Bahn boss Tobias Heinemann and other members of the company’s executive board were accused of consistently ignoring train maintenance schedules and allowing damaged wagons to return to service unrepaired. He and three others were replaced on July 2.


----------



## rheintram

The thing with Berlin's S-Bahn is that it's a myth. And people tend to forget the daily operational side of that 'myth'. Currently it's truely a debacle and it will probably hurt the system a lot.

How are the Berliner's coping these days? Can U-Bahn and regional trains cope with all the extra passengers?


----------



## DiggerD21

Those who have a car, simply use it more extensively. The others use alternative routes or their bikes.


----------



## flierfy

rheintram said:


> The thing with Berlin's S-Bahn is that it's a myth. And people tend to forget the daily operational side of that 'myth'. Currently it's truely a debacle and it will probably hurt the system a lot.


The S-Bahn isn't a myth. It's pretty real and essential to the city which makes it so unbearable to cope without it.


----------



## nr23Derek

Seeing as rheintram asked, a quick dig into the archive box came up with a video I shot in 1990 when I went over to Berlin for the Pink Floyd Wall concert and to have a look at what was left of the wall. The vid is mostly about east Berlin and the wall, but does include some shots of the S Bahn.

Anyhow, I've started a thread about the wall because they don't really belong here - see here

Derek


----------



## Schliemann

The plan is to make a connecting station between the U5 and the U6 at Unter den Linden. My question is, what will happen to the U6 station at Französische Straße? Will it be closed and a totally new station be build, or will it merely change names and a connecting tunnel constructed to the U5? Although not at Unter den Linden, the station is pretty close to it. Seems like a waist of money to build a new station 300 meters north of the old one.


----------



## Schliemann

And... In the Technikmuseum in Berlin I saw a model of the Potsdamer Platz station. I also read on Wikipedia that there are actually three U-bahn platforms there, although only one is in use. I would really like to see a plan drawing of these platforms. So if someone knows where i could find it whether its on the internet or not, that would really make my day.


----------



## micro

Schliemann said:


> The plan is to make a connecting station between the U5 and the U6 at Unter den Linden. My question is, what will happen to the U6 station at Französische Straße? Will it be closed and a totally new station be build, or will it merely change names and a connecting tunnel constructed to the U5? Although not at Unter den Linden, the station is pretty close to it. Seems like a waist of money to build a new station 300 meters north of the old one.


The station will be moved to the new location.


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## flierfy

Schliemann said:


> And... In the Technikmuseum in Berlin I saw a model of the Potsdamer Platz station. I also read on Wikipedia that there are actually three U-bahn platforms there, although only one is in use. I would really like to see a plan drawing of these platforms. So if someone knows where i could find it whether its on the internet or not, that would really make my day.


http://www.nordsued-s-bahn.de/bildbox/12.jpg
This is a drawing of the station in the late 1930s. The only thing that has been added since is the mainline station just west of the S-Bahn.


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## Schliemann

Thank you for that flierfy. It reminds me that i need to pick up a copy of that book. 

As i thought, there is a huge underground structure present there, with only parts being used. The east-west tracks shown on that maps are (i assume) tracks that would be used for the hypothetical U10. That leaves me with the question of how much of that line has actually been constructed. Had the construction for that line already started at the time, or was it only a preparation?

Secondly. The underground link between the S-Bahn and the U2. Does it exist? And this lobby from which it comes from. Where is that, and did it have a specific purpose? Like a shopping area


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## flierfy

Schliemann said:


> As i thought, there is a huge underground structure present there, with only parts being used. The east-west tracks shown on that maps are (i assume) tracks that would be used for the hypothetical U10. That leaves me with the question of how much of that line has actually been constructed. Had the construction for that line already started at the time, or was it only a preparation?


The U10 has been given up in favour of an U3. A few hundred metres including the station of this proposed underground line were built in the 1990s. These are only provisions, however, as the construction of the U3 is in limbo.



Schliemann said:


> Secondly. The underground link between the S-Bahn and the U2. Does it exist? And this lobby from which it comes from. Where is that, and did it have a specific purpose? Like a shopping area


No, the U2 is not directly connected to the mainline and S-Bahn station at Potsdamer Platz. Interchange between the U2 and the S-Bahn there includes a walk on street level in any case.


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## Schliemann

When you say it has been given up for the U3 are you talking about what used to be the U3 project (shown on the map U10/U3) or the current U3 line? 
Because that would make sense to me to extend the current U3 beyond Prenzlauer Berg via Potsdamer Platz. In my opinion it should then stop going to Nollendorfplatz but instead turn North (like the map shows) with a stop at Schillstraße. 
The Western end of the map would be done instead with an extension of the U1.
But would they ever consider such a massive project, extending a kleinprofil line?

If making massive extensions of kleinprofil lines is indeed acceptable, then I would also like them to extend the U4 into what is refered to as the U11 on wikipedia. I could see it having stations at Magdeburger Platz (where it would connect to the U3), Gemäldegalerie, and Paulstraße (on the other side of Tiergarten) before connecting to Hauptbahnhof.
But then again, with the U4 only having 5 stations it would probably be worth the effort of broadening the existing tracks, making it Großprofil.

I know Berlin doesn't have any money to (drastically) extend it's network. But having these stub lines can't be very attractive.


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## ovem

one question. was the U8 line in use during the seperation era from voltastrasse to moritzplatz? I mean, were the trains passing under East Berlin when the wall was seperating the city, eventhough they didn't stop to East Berlin's stations, or this part was closed?


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## FabriFlorence

ovem said:


> one question. was the U8 line in use during the seperation era from voltastrasse to moritzplatz? I mean, were the trains passing under East Berlin when the wall was seperating the city, eventhough they didn't stop to East Berlin's stations, or this part was closed?


Yes it was. The U8 trains passed from voltastrasse to moritzplatz without intermediate stop. U6 only had one stop in Friedrichstrasse.


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## ovem

thank you. But there was no exit from Friedrichstrasse station to East Berlin right? People could just change to S1 & S3 right?


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## Falubaz

Come on, it's just to prevent vandalism on trains, the pattern on the walls and seats is to make tags unvisible and therefore prevent them.


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## Eurotram

Falubaz said:


> Come on, it's just to prevent vandalism on trains, the pattern on the walls and seats is to make tags unvisible and therefore prevent them.


Falubaz,but why pink (instead of so common there yellow)?:nuts:


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## Justme

^^ it was still hiddeous. Somehow that is vandalism to our eyes.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ The same patterns with only black and white wouldn't look too bad.


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## Darryl

Are the S-Bahn's problems over? Are all lines and trains running now?


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## berolina

*Paul Kalkbrenner*

For all you Berlin S-Bahn lovers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sHAxy0NglY&feature=related

Listen to the sound!

Get the Berlin spirit - even better!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=do5-PiJeKmA&feature=related


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## flierfy

Darryl said:


> Are the S-Bahn's problems over? Are all lines and trains running now?


Not entirely. Service on two rather peripheral lines, S45 and S85, has not yet recommenced. While every other line seems to be served as frequently as it used to be.


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## Darryl

flierfy said:


> Not entirely. Service on two rather peripheral lines, S45 and S85, has not yet recommenced. While every other line seems to be served as frequently as it used to be.


Thanks for the update!


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## Baron Hirsch

Unfortunately, the services have been reduced once again. This time, the reason is "seasonal malfunctions". Due to harsh weather, several trains showed problems and had to be withdrawn. In an ordinary year, the reserve trains could compensate for this, but as the reserve contingent is presently zero due to the ongoing inspections, transport has once again been thinned out.


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## mopc

@City thing: it's Warschauer.


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## Alargule

Baron Hirsch said:


> Unfortunately, the services have been reduced once again. This time, the reason is "seasonal malfunctions". Due to harsh weather, several trains showed problems and had to be withdrawn. In an ordinary year, the reserve trains could compensate for this, but as the reserve contingent is presently zero due to the ongoing inspections, transport has once again been thinned out.


My God. Very bad PR for the Berlin S-Bahn...hno:


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## Alargule

*BERLIN | Linking U5 and U55*

In Berlin, the current U5 and U55 lines should be linked together to form the extended U5 line. The missing section should be built between Brandenburger Tor (current terminal for U55) and Alexanderplatz (current terminal for U5).

Construction should begin in 2010 - that's this year. Anyone who has any (insider) info on whether, when and where exactly construction should begin this year?


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## Falubaz

i have my doubts about that. I think the construction of the remaining stretch to conect u5 and u55 will be postponed... again.


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## Yetzirah231

I also have my doubts. But it doesn't seem to cost that much, although Berlin is off course more or the less bankrupt... 

But:

====================== 11th of November 2009:

German capital city Berlin's transport operator Berliner Verkehrsbetriebe has approved a €433m project to build an underground extension of metro line U5.

The 2.2km underground section will run between Alexanderplatz and Brandenburger Tor and will link the recently opened 1.5km U55 shuttle between Brandenburger Tor and Hauptbahnhof into line U5.

The project includes building stations at Berliner Rathaus, Museuminsel and Unter den Linden.

Preparatory work is scheduled to begin in early 2010 with the extension expected to open in 2017.

http://www.railway-technology.com/news/news69504.html

Afterwards it should be extended to: Berlin Jungfernheide, let's see it when I'm 84...
The extention to Doivendreckt could be a little too expensive.


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## Falubaz

What?
7 years to build just 2,2km of metro! that's a joke! In seven years 2 people could dig that effin tunnel with their own hands!


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## Alargule

Yetzirah231 said:


> The extention to Doivendreckt could be a little too expensive.


:lol: ...and gladly so!


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## Slartibartfas

That U55 is a disgrace for Berlin. While I can understand how it came to it, it should have real priority to link it to the U5 as the current situation is not more than a bad joke.

I mean, give me a break:


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## schmidt

Yep, U55 is a joke. If it's not linked to U5 it doesn't make any sense. And believe me, U5 under Unter den Linden would make Berlin's transportation system just perfect. Although there are some U and S-Bahn stations around (in different lines), the coverage in Unter den Linden is not as good as it should be.


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## LoveCPH

OOhh, that's why there's a big hole at Unter den Linden on google maps


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## Dan78

Disappointing that this project is taking so long to complete! Where's that German efficiency one expects? :lol: Seriously, it seems that subway construction worldwide today takes longer than ever to complete (except in China). Imagine if Berlin, Paris, and New York built their initial subways at the rate they're built today. The systems would be about 1/10 as large!

Besides connecting U55 to U5, are there any other subway building projects or proposals in Berlin? What about expansions of the S-Bahn? Or expanding the tram system into West Berlin?



schmidt said:


> Yep, U55 is a joke. If it's not linked to U5 it doesn't make any sense. And believe me, U5 under Unter den Linden would make Berlin's transportation system just perfect. Although there are some U and S-Bahn stations around (in different lines), the coverage in Unter den Linden is not as good as it should be.


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## LtBk

Despite Germany being "inefficient", you guys have mass transit systems that many in the US can only dream off.


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## Falubaz

LtBk said:


> Despite Germany being "inefficient", you guys have mass transit systems that many in the US can only dream off.


It's because States are made for cars... and ppl in us cities are just prisoners of their cars... maybe u can live without a car in NY, San Francisco or... exactly that's pretty much it
In Europe car is freedom, but public transportation isnt that bad, so u can live using buses and trains, in States car is a need, cos its hard to develope an efficient public transportation for cities that are so large... where there is nothing but houses mileswide...


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## DiggerD21

The scandal about the subway construction site in Cologne also includes faked documents so that nobody can immediately recognise that something is going wrong there. 
Cologne is the "Naples of Germany" when it comes to corruption cases.


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## LtBk

I was excepting cities like Dresden to be more corrupt. Why is Koln more corrupt?


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## DiggerD21

To be honest, it is just my perception. There is a phenomenom called "Kölscher Klüngel", which comes from Cologne. Basically it is kind of helping out friends and they help you out in return. But it can mutate to corruption and bribery.

Anyway, this thread is about Berlin's subway.


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## Justme

Falubaz said:


> So u assume they come from abroad?


LOL, not assume. I used the word "or" in that sentence. 

–conjunction
1.
(used to connect words, phrases, or clauses representing alternatives)

This suggests it could be locals _or_ foreigners. If foreigners, they have the opportunity to return to their home countries to avoid prosecution.


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## Justme

LtBk said:


> Despite Germany being "inefficient", you guys have mass transit systems that many in the US can only dream off.


Well, these are quite typical in European countries, not just Germany. It has a lot to do with the density of our cities which makes public transport more viable. Germany does pretty good overall in Europe as well. One thing we are lucky here is that few cities destroyed their tram networks.

It does seem though that a large number of cities built their metro networks after WWII and in particular during the 1980's. I have often wondered what was so special in the 1980's that either the governments had so much money or construction was so much cheaper. That said, they are quite bland and functional in comparison to the new u-bahn stations being built today.


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## LtBk

As you know, the US has cities that are urban as those in Europe like Chicago and Philly, yet they have crappy mass transit compared to those to Europe, and it gets much worse once you reach the suburbs.


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## GEwinnen

http://www.bvg.de/index.php/en/17115/name/Information.html


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## Dan78

Europe never experienced the same degree of suburbanization, inner-city divestment, and highway obsession post-WWII as did the U.S., or the corresponding indifference or hostility to transit. I could be wrong, but as I understand, even dense New York City (the queen of heavy rail metro) had no subway construction post-1950 until the Second Avenue Subway project started just a few years ago.

In the U.S., auto and bus companies also persuaded most mid-to-large American cities to remove their trolley (tram) tracks, exceptions being Philadelphia, Boston, Pittsburgh, and San Francisco (though often with reduced networks). Germany never did this, they retained their old tram networks and often these became the basis of Stadtbahn (pre-metro), or feeder lines for full Metro systems (like those in München). Because the old population centers maintained their density, vitality, and tax base, it would have been far easier to build the type of systems they have (that, and Germans don't have a fanatical hyper-individualist, anti-public works, anti-transit streak that many Americans do).

France dismantled *most *of its cities tram networks as well; most of those you see today are _de novo_ systems as least as far as trackage, some follow the old tram routes.

As Justme pointed out, the German stations are often bland or functional, especially the Stadtbahn-type systems common in the Rhein-Ruhr area, but most American mid-sized cities would kill to have systems like these. It's a shame that Germany seems to be losing its edge on being able to build out these systems as needed they way they once did.



LtBk said:


> As you know, the US has cities that are urban as those in Europe like Chicago and Philly, yet they have crappy mass transit compared to those to Europe, and it gets much worse once you reach the suburbs.


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## LtBk

He is talking about stations build in the 80's.


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## Justme

^^ Year, newer stations in Germany are much more attractive in design than the ones built in the 1980's. Many of the new ones are simply fantastic.


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## goschio

Justme said:


> Such a pity this line is so slow to construct for a couple of reasons. One, I guess this means that for the next 7 years at least, Berlin's proud and beautiful boulevard, Unter den Linden will be a construction site and second, it is plain embarrassing for Germany.
> 
> How these politicians could accept the U55 as a viable construction is beyond belief. *And as the federal capital, and Germany's face to the world, the national government should step in and help fund this to get it finished quicker.*



Yes, pumping even more money into that hellhole of Berlin. :nuts:

They get more than enough support from western Germany already. If they can't use it effieciently then its their problem. 

And to be honest, if Berlin can't afford new subway lines then they shouldn't built them. Its not like these lines are essential for the economy. Its pure Luxus to have such lines. And Berlin is far from experiencing a traffic collapse. That city was once built for 5 million people and now it has around 3.6 million.

And talking about efficiency. Pumping tax money from west Germany into Berlin is probably the most inefficent way to allocate resources in this country. Seing this I really wish that reunification never happened and the capital stayed in beautiful Bonn.

And you wonder why there was so much construction back in the 1980s? West Germany could use its hard earned money to construct its own infrastructure and not waste it in ex commie Germany.


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## Justme

^^ This has nothing to do with the East/West divide and pumping up the East. This is Berlin, our national capital. Our face to the world. It doesn't matter if the capital is in the East, the West, North or South, it should be properlly funded as capital cities around the world usually are.

And Berlin is hardly a hellhold, it is one of the great cities of the world. Though, I do respect your opinion if you don't personally like it.

Just because the city used to have a higher population, doesn't mean the transport infrastructure today is good enough. Times change as do travelling needs, and much has changed in transport since the divide of the city in the cold war, the destruction of most of it's tramways and other rail infrastructure.

Besides, the capital city in your country was almost exclusively built from federal funds. Berlin at least is a real city, organically grown rather than planned.


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## goschio

^
Don't mind helping them out, but pumping eve more money into it, as you suggested, is the wrong way IMO. They get more than enough already and if they can't use it properly then its their problem. 

And Berlin the face to the world?

Other cities such as Munich, Hamburg or even Rhein-Ruhr are just as important. Berlin might see lots of budget tourists but busines travelers will be found in other cities. Why paying luxury subways in Berlin while western German central stations are crumbling. Look at Munich central station. Its a disaster. Same poor conditions all over Rhein Ruhr. Infrastructure investments should somewhat reflect the economic capabilitis of a region.


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## Justme

goschio said:


> ^
> Don't mind helping them out, but pumping eve more money into it, as you suggested, is the wrong way IMO. They get more than enough already and if they can't use it properly then its their problem.
> 
> And Berlin the face to the world?
> 
> Other cities such as Munich, Hamburg or even Rhein-Ruhr are just as important. Berlin might see lots of budget tourists but busines travelers will be found in other cities. Why paying luxury subways in Berlin if western German central stations are crumbling. Look at Munich central station. Its a disaster. Same poor conditions all over Rhein Ruhr.


Well, Berlin is the face of Germany. The Rhein Ruhr is not really known outside of the Germanic World (as the Rhein Ruhr, those some may have heard of Düsseldorf & Cologne). Munich and Hamburg are quite known, but Berlin is still by a long shot the most famous city in Germany.

It is the face of the country. Just like Sydney is the face of Australia. Melbourne is not that far off in importance and population, but ask anyone outside of Australia to name one city and most would say Sydney.

Why pay for the subway? Because it needs the money. By the way, I believe Munich station will be rennovated soon by DB


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## GEwinnen

goschio said:


> ^
> Look at Munich central station. Its a disaster. *Same poor conditions all over Rhein Ruhr.* Infrastructure investments should somewhat reflect the economic capabilitis of a region.


This isn't true. The most important station in Ruhr -Dortmund- is under construction. And Essen was refurbished last year.
Beside this, the smaller Gelsenkirchen station is in a perfect condition since the world cup 2006 !


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## goschio

GEwinnen said:


> This isn't true. The most important station in Ruhr -Dortmund- is under construction. And Essen was refurbished last year.
> Beside this, the smaller Gelsenkirchen station is in a perfect condition since the world cup 2006 !


Are you seriously suggesting that Dortument central station renovation is a success? It is the cheapest way possible to keep that station functioning. Same in Essen. Nothing special at all. 

These are not provincial towns somewhere in the middle of nowhere. This is the economical heartland of Germany.


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## GEwinnen

goschio said:


> Are you seriously suggesting that Dortument central station renovation is a success? It is the cheapest way possible to keep that station functioning. Same in Essen. Nothing special at all.
> 
> These are not provincial towns somewhere in the middle of nowhere. This is the economical heartland of Germany.


The current renovations in Dortmund are the first step. Next ones will follow soon, Essen is fresh & clean now, we don't need cathedrals as a stations here in Ruhr!


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## immi#

GEwinnen said:


> This isn't true. The most important station in Ruhr -Dortmund- is under construction.


well, they did some renovations in the main hall and on the front. Meanwhile the passenger access tunnels still look ugly as hell and still no elevators to the platforms. And this in one of the busiest train stations in germany.
The promised next step in renovations won't happen before 2013/14, finished in 2017.
But as it seems that the RRX is more or less dead, I won't believe too much that it actually is going to happen.



> This is Berlin, our national capital. Our face to the world


What's the point in showing the world a pretty face if the rest of the country has to suffer from it?
And in contrast to many other regions Berlin has a good public transport system. And has seen lots of investment in the recent past. (Hbf, Südkreuz, now Ostkreuz ...).


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## Justme

immi# said:


> What's the point in showing the world a pretty face if the rest of the country has to suffer from it?
> And in contrast to many other regions Berlin has a good public transport system. And has seen lots of investment in the recent past. (Hbf, Südkreuz, now Ostkreuz ...).


The rest of the country isn't exactly suffering. Sure, I would also like to see some u-bahn expansion in Frankfurt. Like the final connection in the U1 loop. But I am not going to say that it should take precedence over any other part of the country.

The fact is, Berlin needs financial help to speed up this line. 

Germans have a very "me, me, me" attitude sometimes. 

In many country's, the public transport network is financed through the state treasury. This is more logical as a city rarely has enough money to pay for such things. But Berlin can't really have this as it doesn't have a state. Well, let's be correct, it does, but it is it's own state. Maybe not the best arrangement one could have.

Berlin is also in an obvious need of financial help. You know, I don't mind helping out where it's needed. I pay an awful lot of taxes and a great portion of it goes to subsidise things I will never or hardly use. But others need them, so that's fine. I'd be happy for my taxes to help with Berlin's transport, as would I to improve the train stations in Dortmund, Düsseldorf or Munich.

I don't like paying taxes. Hell, I'm in the highest bracket and see pretty much half my wage disappear. But that's life and I don't mind if it goes to help other regions that need it.


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## immi#

I'm totally with you that the money should go where it is needed.
The problem is there are a lot of places who need financial help.
Since money is a scarce resource these days there should be some more points to consider than just the fact that Berlin is the capital and thus the money should go there 



justme said:


> Germans have a very "me, me, me" attitude sometimes.


 nothing special to germans, human nature 



justme said:


> In many country's, the public transport network is financed through the state treasury. This is more logical as a city rarely has enough money to pay for such things. But Berlin can't really have this as it doesn't have a state. Well, let's be correct, it does, but it is it's own state. Maybe not the best arrangement one could have.


The city states therefor get better terms in the distribution of the tax income to the states. iirc, Berlin also gets extra funds because of its role as capital.


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## Urbanus

As another outsider, but lover of Germany, I just want to contribute a little to this debate.

I love Berlin, but I love many other German cities as well - especailly Munich and Hamburg. But there is no doubt at all that if you look at Germany from the outside Berlin is by far the most well knowned, and most visited city in Germany - both by tourists and others. Ofcourse Frankfurt is the finansial capital, and other cities have important industry and business, but Berlin is just the city that draw most attention. Not because it's the official captial, but because it's the capital in peoples mind. Other European contries as well have cities that draws most attention - often captials like London and Paris, but sometimes not even the capital (like Amsterdam in Holland). And since IT IS the actual face of these contries, all of the contry will benefit from the development of these cities.

You can ask anyone here in Denmark where I live which city in Germany they know - and most will say Berlin as the first. Many havn't even been to Hamburg, even though it is much closer to Denmark.

Another thing I've never understood - and that counts for most contries I know of. That is the issue raised by Justme - why it often is so hard to get National/Federal/State money into local public transport in big and important cities where it is obvious needed. It as always called a local matter, even though many cities can't carry these costs themeselves.
When it comes to motorways, there is almost always national/federal money invested - even though many of those who will use it is local travellers and commuters. But an U-Bahn, metro, tram etc. is always considered a local matter, that only concern the city itself - even though many of those have far more passengers than many national railway lines, and is important parts of a infrastructure that will benefits all - at least if we're talking the biggest and most important cities of a country. An that goes for both the actual captial and the most famous city, but also other important cities as well
A good local infrastructure in the important cities is as important as a good national infrastructure - both for the economy, for the industry and for the reputation of the country.

So my point is: Ofcourse Berlin is the most important city, and investment in good infrastructure there is good for the whole Germany, but Germany should invest in good local infrastructure in other important cities as well, and as I see it Hamburg, Frankfurt and Rhein-Ruhr could benefit from some improvements, and the whole country would benefit from it as well. Munich have propably the best infrastructure as I see it.


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## kato2k8

Justme said:


> But Berlin can't really have this as it doesn't have a state. Well, let's be correct, it does, but it is it's own state. Maybe not the best arrangement one could have.


You do realize that if Berlin had a state around it (Berlin-Brandenburg), it'd actually be worse off financially?
Berlin is sucking enough money out of the other states that you could pay Hartz IV for _every single citizen of Berlin_ from it.


----------



## Justme

kato2k8 said:


> You do realize that if Berlin had a state around it (Berlin-Brandenburg), it'd actually be worse off financially?


You are probably right here. Brandenburg is a somewhat deprived and underpopulated state and in this case it maybe a burden rather than a help. Which is why in Berlin's case it needs federal assistance. 



kato2k8 said:


> Berlin is sucking enough money out of the other states that you could pay Hartz IV for _every single citizen of Berlin_ from it.


I see it a different way. Every country needs a capital city. That's the way the world works, and Germany has Berlin. Since it is a federal capital, it's importance is at a national level. So a certain amount of federal money should be invested into the federal capital.

We can all sit down and moan about how our little village doesn't get the funds it needs, and in many cases it will be a valid point. But we still have to look at the bigger picture. A federal capital needs federal funds. Berlin does get this to a degree, but the very fact that the city is bankrupted because it was expected to foot so much of the bill itself shows it really isn't getting enough.

Urbanus makes a very good point. In this country, public transport is often the responsibility of the city council to fund. This is quite frankly unfair. Here in Frankfurt, I don't have to look to far to see that a great portion of the people on our u-bahn system actually live outside Frankfurt and it the metro area. In many other country's, this would be funded at the State level, or even federal. But as you point kato2k8, the state around Berlin, Brandenburg is not in itself a wealthy place and couldn't afford to assist Berlin, so the next step is federal help.


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## goschio

Berlin is not the only big and important city in Germany. Economically speaking, other regions are way more important and attract even more business travelers than Berlin. 

Don't forget, the economic engine of Germany is in Munich, Stuttgart, Frankfurt, Rhein-Ruhr and Hamburg. Berlin as a whole is not generating any wealth for Germany. Its a poor region that lives from transfer money it receives from west Germany. Economically speaking it is quite bizarre what is going on right now in Germany. The wealthy regions, that generate all the money, must cope with crappy infrastructure while poor Berlin gets one first class project after the other. Sure, they have to catch up but not at the cost of the remaining country and the vast majority of the population. Its 4 million Berliners versus 65 million west Germans. The other east Germans get their good share as well. 

And to be honest, I don't care if some budget tourist can make nice photos of first class train stations in Berlin. People all over Germany use public transport to go to work and do their business. These people are just as important.


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## Urbanus

goschio said:


> Berlin is not the only big and important city in Germany. Economically speaking, other regions are way more important and attract even more business travelers than Berlin.
> 
> Don't forget, the economic engine of Germany is in Munich, Stuttgart, Frankfurt, Rhein-Ruhr and Hamburg. Berlin as a whole is not generating any wealth for Germany. Its a poor region that lives from transfer money it receives from west Germany. Economically speaking it is quite bizarre what is going on right now in Germany. The wealthy regions, that generate all the money, must cope with crappy infrastructure while poor Berlin gets one first class project after the other. Sure, they have to catch up but not at the cost of the remaining country and the vast majority of the popualtion. Its 4 million Berliners versus 65 million west Germans. The other east Germans get their good share as well.
> 
> And to be honest, I don't care if some budget tourist can make nice photos of first class train stations in Berlin. People all over Germany use public transport to go to work and do their business. These people are just as important.


Well, first of all: I've never questioned or denied the fact that there is other parts of Germany there is important. I just say that Berlin is the most important and famous face to the outside world. Not only for budget tourists.
Therefor I think investments in Berlin infrastructure is good investments, that will benefit more than just Berlin. But I also said that other cities need investment as well. 
There have been invested much in Berlin, but mostly in the big railway stations, long distance railway, S-Bahn and airport. The U-Bahn is in a poor condition, and havn't been developed and extended much, other than the embarrassing and scandalous slow building of the U55/U5-extension (which was the actual subject for this thread). If you compare the U-Bahn there is a long way up to the standards of cities like Munich, Hamburg, Frankfurt, Cologne and Nürnberg.


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## Justme

goschio said:


> Berlin is not the only big and important city in Germany. Economically speaking, other regions are way more important and attract even more business travelers than Berlin.
> 
> Don't forget, the economic engine of Germany is in Munich, Stuttgart, Frankfurt, Rhein-Ruhr and Hamburg. Berlin as a whole is not generating any wealth for Germany. Its a poor region that lives from transfer money it receives from west Germany. Economically speaking it is quite bizarre what is going on right now in Germany. The wealthy regions, that generate all the money, must cope with crappy infrastructure while poor Berlin gets one first class project after the other.


Berlin is still the federal capital and as such it deserves federal funds. It's also not like the rest of Germany's economically power cities have bad infrastructure. Last time I went to Hamburg, Munich or the Rhein Ruhr, I noticed quite good public transport. In fact, Germany is rather well known for most of it's major cities having a good u-bahn and s-bahn system.


----------



## flierfy

goschio said:


> Don't forget, the economic engine of Germany is in Munich, Stuttgart, Frankfurt, Rhein-Ruhr and Hamburg. Berlin as a whole is not generating any wealth for Germany. Its a poor region that lives from transfer money it receives from west Germany. Economically speaking it is quite bizarre what is going on right now in Germany. The wealthy regions, that generate all the money, must cope with crappy infrastructure *while poor Berlin gets one first class project after the other.* Sure, they have to catch up but not at the cost of the remaining country and the vast majority of the population. Its 4 million Berliners versus 65 million west Germans. The other east Germans get their good share as well.


Just that Berlin hasn't really asked for this. The decisions to build new stations and railway lines were made by representatives of the federal government and Deutsche Bahn.
The same with the U5 extension. Berlin can't afford and that's why they actually don't it. At least not now. Federal funds and contractual constrains, however, force the city of Berlin to finish this project.

Reality is way more complicated than the black and white picture you draw.


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## kato2k8

Justme said:


> I see it a different way. Every country needs a capital city.


Sure. Mine's Stuttgart since 1976. :lol:



Justme said:


> the very fact that the city is bankrupted because it was expected to foot so much of the bill itself shows it really isn't getting enough.


Berlin was already pretty much bankrupt before it was declared the capital.



Justme said:


> Here in Frankfurt, I don't have to look to far to see that a great portion of the people on our u-bahn system actually live outside Frankfurt and it the metro area.


The U-Bahn in Frankfurt doesn't extend beyond Frankfurt city borders. The S-Bahn does.
Also, getting into public transport... you do know that pretty much every single local public transport building in Germany is financed through GVFG, the community financing law that grants such projects up to 70% federal or state funding - state if it's less than €50 million, federal if it's more than €50 million? The local communities - and that includes Berlin - barely pay anything outside planning cost and a token sum for the project.


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## Justme

kato2k8 said:


> Sure. Mine's Stuttgart since 1976. :lol:


Not a good turn to take in a debate  next you'll be saying electricity comes from little pixies who live in the wires. 



kato2k8 said:


> Berlin was already pretty much bankrupt before it was declared the capital.


Ahh, yes. A slight problem in history called the cold war. You may remember it. Rather unpleasant stuff.



kato2k8 said:


> The U-Bahn in Frankfurt doesn't extend beyond Frankfurt city borders.


a) Yes it does. Have a look on the map. Last I saw it extends as far north as Bad Homburg, which technically is still not officially part of Frankfurt.
b) You miss my entire point. A lot of commuters may come in on an S-bahn or Regional train and then transfer to an u-bahn to reach their final destination.



kato2k8 said:


> Also, getting into public transport... you do know that pretty much every single local public transport building in Germany is financed through GVFG, the community financing law that grants such projects up to 70% federal or state funding - state if it's less than €50 million, federal if it's more than €50 million? The local communities - and that includes Berlin - barely pay anything outside planning cost and a token sum for the project.


Well it's not doing a terribly efficient case as evident in the U5 in Berlin then, isn't it.


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## kato2k8

The U5/U55 continuation is actually completely financed by the federation - Berlin isn't paying a single cent, which is a real disgrace.

From CDU Berlin (in German):



> Vorhaben U5:
> 
> Der Weiterbau der U5 zwischen dem U-Bahnhof Brandenburger Tor und Alexanderplatz erfolgt entsprechend dem zwischen dem Senat von Berlin und dem Bund abgeschlossenen Vertrag, der vorsieht, dass spätestens bis 2010 mit dem Weiterbau zu beginnen ist und die Inbetriebnahme bis 2020 erfolgen muss. Die Kosten für den Weiterbau der U5 ab dem U-Bahnhof Brandenburger Tor und für die Inbetriebnahme der gesamten Strecke betragen noch ca. 400 Mio. €. Die Finanzierung erfolgt aus den dem Land vom Bund zur Verfügung gestellten Mitteln nach dem Gemeindeverkehrsfinanzierungsgesetz (GVFG) und den Mitteln nach dem Regionalisierungsgesetz (RegG) sowie den Mitteln nach dem Hauptstadtfinanzierungsvertrag. Aus dem Hauptstadtfinanzierungs-vertrag stehen dem Land Berlin für diesen Bauabschnitt dann noch ca. 47,5 Mio. € zur Verfügung.


One really funny thing happened with the U55 btw (the full stretch from Lehrter Bf / Hbf to Alexanderplatz).

The federal government paid Berlin the money for the jointly decided project (over 500 million Euro back then, 80% of the project cost), and then Berlin didn't start building it - the Berlin state government instead squabbled about whether to build the line at all. This went so far that the Bundesrechnungshof (financial authority) finally demanded that the federal government demand interest for the paid sum from Berlin - to the tune of some 60 million Euro.
That was 10 years ago. Now the line _still_ isn't finished (the original contract between Berlin and the federation called for 2002), and Berlin has haggled down the Federal Government until it now pays _all_ of it.

Seriously, this crap with our money needs to stop. And the only way to stop it is to stop giving Berlin our tax money for stuff that does nothing for us.


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## goschio

Justme said:


> Berlin is still the federal capital and as such it deserves federal funds.


What makes you think that Berlin does not receive federal funds? It gets more than enough. 

The state Berlin as a whole gets transfer payments from the more affluent states and additional funds because its the capital. Then it gets funds because its in east Germany. Furthermore, most infrastructure projects in Germany are co-financed between the community, the state and the federal government.

If this is not enough for Berlin then there is something seriously going wrong in that city. Pumping even more money into it is no solution. Berlin must cut costs even if it is unpopular and might cost voters. 

And to be honest, I don't think Berlin deserves anything. They can be happy that the rest of Germany is so generous to provide funds for its capital. Germany does not need Berlin but Berlin needs Germany to survive. Germany was perfectly fine with its former capital Bonn. Alone the movement of the capital from Bonn to Berlin was a financial disaster and IMO a historical mistake. All that money could have been invested in edcuation and science to increase Germanies overall performance. Its not like we are an oil rich nation that does not know where to put the money. 

Would be interestin to see what Australian tax payers would think if the government wants to move the capital from Canberra to Sydney. Don't think they would be very happy. Waste of money.

Don't get me wrong, I don't wan't Berlin to starve or anything. They should get all the special treatment other east German cities receive as well. However, I am against any special treatment just because its the capital (except government infrastrucutre of course) . Berlins function is to govern the country but not to be a tourist hotspot financed by tax payers money. If some people have the urge to provide special funds then they should sent a portion of their monthly paycheck to Berlin.


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## schmidt

Urbanus said:


> Therefor I think investments in Berlin infrastructure is good investments, that will benefit more than just Berlin. But I also said that other cities need investment as well.
> There have been invested much in Berlin, but mostly in the big railway stations, long distance railway, S-Bahn and airport. The U-Bahn is in a poor condition, and havn't been developed and extended much, other than the embarrassing and scandalous slow building of the U55/U5-extension (which was the actual subject for this thread). If you compare the U-Bahn there is a long way up to the standards of cities like Munich, Hamburg, Frankfurt, Cologne and Nürnberg.


It hasn't been improved much because there isn't much need! In the East the U5 and the tramway lines do a very good job, no need for more. IMO the extension of U5 would make the system perfect, but it's not really utter necessary. But now that we have the U55 on one edge and the U5 on the other, there must be a connection to make the U55 construction worth it!

The Berliner S+U-Bahn system is among the best I've ever rode and serves most of the city. The city actually has a very, very good transportation system overall.


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## Urbanus

schmidt said:


> It hasn't been improved much because there isn't much need! In the East the U5 and the tramway lines do a very good job, no need for more. IMO the extension of U5 would make the system perfect, but it's not really utter necessary. But now that we have the U55 on one edge and the U5 on the other, there must be a connection to make the U55 construction worth it!
> 
> The Berliner S+U-Bahn system is among the best I've ever rode and serves most of the city. The city actually has a very, very good transportation system overall.


Berlin have a very good U+S-Bahn-system. That's right. But to say it is complete, and couldn't need improvement is wrong. The coverage of the U-Bahn in the old East Berlin is very bad, and the tram is very slow compared to the U-Bahn. There is many gaps and incompleted lines - there is that in many other systems too (Hamburg is a good example) - and also in Berlin. To make it perfect as you say, these gaps should be filled (like U1 from Uhlandstrasse to Adanaur Platz, U3/U4 from Nollendorfplatz to Potsdammer Platz, U1 from Warschauer Strasse to Frankfurter Tor, U5 from Hauptbahnhof to Turmstrasse just to mention some obvious). But you're right, it works okay without them. It's good, but could be better. But most of all, many stations are in a poor condition, and that's where I really think improvement is necessary. It have been better in the recent years, with the renovation of U5, Alexander Platz, Kurfürstendamn etc., but still, I think many stations are not a great capital like Berlin worthy. And the U5 extention from Alexander Platz to Hauptbahnhof should have been built and opened 10 years ago. It is a disgrace that it have been that long time on the way, and only will be finished in 2017!! 
I mean here in Copenhagen we have built almost our intire metro, including the new Cityring, in the same period of time that the somewhat small U5-extension have and will be built!

But as I said. Berlin have a very good transport system that need to be improved. Like many other German cities have good transport systems as well, that also needs to be improved. Germany overall is one of my favorite countries when it comes to urban transport - I think there is really many fine U-Bahn, S-Bahn, Stadtbahn and tram-systems. But still many of them could still need improvement - and much imvestment have been made in the 1960's and 1970's (or in Berlin in 1900-1940 - and again in the 60's and 70's). Not that much have happened in the last 20 years, and that is a pity.


----------



## Justme

goschio said:


> What makes you think that Berlin does not receive federal funds? It gets more than enough.
> 
> The state Berlin as a whole gets transfer payments from the more affluent states and additional funds because its the capital. Then it gets funds because its in east Germany. Furthermore, most infrastructure projects in Germany are co-financed between the community, the state and the federal government.
> 
> If this is not enough for Berlin then there is something seriously going wrong in that city. Pumping even more money into it is no solution. Berlin must cut costs even if it is unpopular and might cost voters.
> 
> And to be honest, I don't think Berlin deserves anything. They can be happy that the rest of Germany is so generous to provide funds for its capital. Germany does not need Berlin but Berlin needs Germany to survive. Germany was perfectly fine with its former capital Bonn. Alone the movement of the capital from Bonn to Berlin was a financial disaster and IMO a historical mistake. All that money could have been invested in edcuation and science to increase Germanies overall performance. Its not like we are an oil rich nation that does not know where to put the money.
> 
> Would be interestin to see what Australian tax payers would think if the government wants to move the capital from Canberra to Sydney. Don't think they would be very happy. Waste of money.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I don't wan't Berlin to starve or anything. They should get all the special treatment other east German cities receive as well. However, I am against any special treatment just because its the capital (except government infrastrucutre of course) . Berlins function is to govern the country but not to be a tourist hotspot financed by tax payers money. If some people have the urge to provide special funds then they should sent a portion of their monthly paycheck to Berlin.


And how do you think Canberra is financed? The entire city was built from scratch with federal money when they could have used an existing city. And today, it is entirely financed by federal reserves. Afterall, it doesn't have it's own state either.


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## schmidt

The Berliner U-Bahn stations may not be in the best condition, but it's in the same tier as Paris, London or Chicago, better than New York for sure. So why should an impoverished city have ultra-modern stations while some ultra rich cities don't have it?


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## Justme

schmidt said:


> So why should an impoverished city have ultra-modern stations while some ultra rich cities don't have it?


I love questions that can be turned entirely the other way around.

Anyway. Would you be happy if they built old stations on the new line?

The thing is, this is a new line. So logic would assume that they build a new station on the new line. If you have some wonderful method of building an old station on a new line, please let us know. It may save a lot of money, and quite frankly, some old stations look fantastic.


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## schmidt

Justme said:


> I love questions that can be turned entirely the other way around.
> 
> Anyway. Would you be happy if they built old stations on the new line?
> 
> The thing is, this is a new line. So logic would assume that they build a new station on the new line. If you have some wonderful method of building an old station on a new line, please let us know. It may save a lot of money, and quite frankly, some old stations look fantastic.


I don't get your point. I'm saying that Berlin doesn't need to modernise their current subway stations. They do their job and the condition is acceptable the way it is now. And except for the extension of the U5, which is necessary to make the U55 worth it, the current system doesn't need any enlargements for the moment.

I lived there for half a year and I only caught one crowded train (S-Bahn) in this period and that's solely because the U-Bahn was on strike.

The size of Berlin's public transportation would be considered good even in cities like Rio de Janeiro.


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## Justme

schmidt said:


> I don't get your point. I'm saying that Berlin doesn't need to modernise their current subway stations. They do their job and the condition is acceptable the way it is now. And except for the extension of the U5, which is necessary to make the U55 worth it, the current system doesn't need any enlargements for the moment.
> 
> I lived there for half a year and I only caught one crowded train (S-Bahn) in this period and that's solely because the U-Bahn was on strike.
> 
> The size of Berlin's public transportation would be considered good even in cities like Rio de Janeiro.


We're not talking about modernizing the existing stations here in this thread, but the actual extension of the U5, which you agree is needed. So I guess we are in agreement.


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## schmidt

^^ Yes, and about that I also agree that it needs to involve Federal funds. It's not only in Germany, but here in Brazil, for example, in São Paulo State they do the same to the capital's subway system, which is funded by the State Government.

But I can understand the Germans' feelings about Berlin. In the State I live in Brazil it happens the same: Florianópolis, the capital, is a tourist place with no factories or anything and they get most infrastructure investments. I feel bad about that since my city has a much larger GDP per capita than the capital and doesn't get half of the State investment in the capital.

It's a quite delicate issue, but one thing is clear: if the U5 isn't extended until Brandenburger Tor, the U55 is gonna be a waste of money!


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## Alphaville

Justme said:


> And how do you think Canberra is financed? The entire city was built from scratch with federal money when they could have used an existing city. And today, it is entirely financed by federal reserves. Afterall, it doesn't have it's own state either.


They were using an existing city; Melbourne. We were national capital for the first 26 years of federated Australia after 1901 - it moved to Canberra in 1927. 

Melbourne would have served as a fantastic political capital of Australia. Sydney would still be the international 'face'. It would have been a perfect arrangement, but alas, reality. Even though Canberra has been capital for over 80 years, many national institutions are still based in Melbourne.


As for the topic at hand -- Berlin. I don't think anyone can argue that there are other German cities that are more important in terms of $$, but Berlin is the cultural and political heart of the country. Alot of the troubles Berlin is in today is because it bore the brunt of post war Germany, and indeed the entire Cold War.

If Munich had been divided like Berlin had been it would be in the same situation. I'm not German, but I still get very irritated by this common critcism of Berlin. It deserves the funding---it faced consequences that other parts of Germany didn't - this has obviously stunted its economic growth. It's never going to be a money making machine like Munich or Stuttgart, its a public sector hub, hence the need fo funding.


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## kato2k8

Alphaville said:


> Berlin is the cultural and political heart of the country.


Not from a South-German perspective :lol:



Alphaville said:


> It's never going to be a money making machine like Munich or Stuttgart, its a public sector hub, hence the need fo funding.


Stuttgart per se isn't a "money making machine" either - the money, and most of the population, sits in the small towns surrounding Stuttgart. Stuttgart is a regional public hub just as well.
Unlike West-German towns Berlin swallowed its surrounding area in the 1920s though (except Hamburg, which did the same).

As for Berlin being the capital, it was a relatively tight race back in 1991 btw. 338 votes for Berlin, 320 votes against. Among West-German representatives, it was 291:214 in favour of staying in Bonn.


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## Justme

^^ If there was a god, I would thank him that it did go back to Berlin. Bonn was one of the most boring national capitals on the planet. Sure, it's a pleasant enough town (or suburb of Cologne ;O) but as a national capital it just had no charisma.


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## GEwinnen

Justme said:


> ^^ If there was a god, I would thank him that it did go back to Berlin. Bonn was one of the most *boring *national capitals on the planet. Sure, it's a pleasant enough town (or suburb of Cologne ;O) but as a national capital it just had no charisma.


This was one of the reasons for the first federal chancellor Adenauer to fight for Bonn as the ferderal capital - instead of Frankfurt. The other reason was the short distance to Bonn from his home in Rhöndorf


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## Baron Hirsch

Wow, this thread has discussed just about all the standard discussions of German politics, and now that the actual construction started, noone is interested. 
Construction started yesterday with the traditional first shovel done by the mayor, conveniently right in front of the Town Hall. To summarize news reports: the first year will pass with archaeologic excavations and setting up the construction machinery. The big hole will be on MarxEngels Forum, and Marx and Engels will be evicted to somewhere on the edge of the square. Digging will then pick up pace, including a one year big hole on Unter den Linden/Friedrichstrasse in 2012. Here the tunnel acutally becomes deep (27 meters), as it passes under U6. The first station, Berliner Rathaus, could be inaugurated in 2015, as the tunnel from Alex to there actually exists since the 1930s and only the station must be built, while Museumsinsel and Unter den Linde should be augurated in 2017.


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## Falubaz

What a effort! 5 years for just one station excluding already built tunnel!


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## Baron Hirsch

I think the construction hole on MarxEngelsForum prevents an earlier completion of the station. Also, the tunnel will extend under the still to built HumboldtForum, and the tunnel can only be built once at least the supporting base of that building is completed. However, the main reason seems to be that the line is not really wanted and thus the municipality government is allotting only a few pennies each year of its budget to the crucial works such as installing rails, signals, etc. It is what I would do if I had to complete a line I personally find a failed investment.


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## Slartibartfas

^^ In how far can the single metro line connecting the Hauptbahnhof with Berlin Mitte be a "failed investment"? I mean unless you build a meaningless 3 stops island subway.


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## MrNogatco

Is the S-Bahn going to be running 8-car Vollzüge again, or are the 6-car trains the new normal now?


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## MrNogatco

Even with the current troubles the Berlin S-Bahn, along with the U-Bahn, is my favourite urban transportation network.

I like the East German class 485 trains the best...big, rough, noisy and the closest living relative to the old BR 477 trains (RIP). 

The Bombardier/Adtranz BR 480 and 481 trains are quiet and modern but they don't have as much character.

I'm weird that way...I like my urbanity a little rough around the edges.


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## passwo

^^

Looks nice.


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## Alargule

^^ Go -censored- yourself.

Some mod please throw this guy out.


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## Alargule

There's an interesting book on the history and projects of line U5 (incl. U55), co-written by the same guy who is the webmaster of Urbanrail.net.
Never thought you could fill 112 pages with information on one metro line


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## deasine

Cool idea.


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## metro-world

*Berlin U-Bahn and S-Bahn*

Hallo to all friends to Berlin Rail system
I am wondering how many outsiders discussing on Berlin - so I will write in English.
I had just been in Berlin last week. And wondering to see the S-Bahn to the fair ground running during the day in 10 min. intervall with 8-car trains. not sure if this was only for the InnoTrans fair. But other lines seems to run in their original frequency even not with full train length. So my impression was it is better than reported in the news papers!

U-Bahn Extension: Berlin is the German Capital - but working with extensions with a provincial small township! haves a big city budged, but no one knows where all it goes! From the big plannings published 15 years ago - only line 5 is coming during this decade.
there are some interesting in-house publication showing artists impressions on station design- but not on their web site:
http://www.bvg.de/index.php/de/3905/name/Geplante+Streckenerweiterungen.html 

Money goes in building elevators - not only there - costing much but only some effect. we do not have so many wheel-chair drivers to use them! But some more are nessessary because the old stations mostly have only stairs. 
by building such - there is no money for new extensions --even there is a astronomic high cost.


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## Dase

^ Elevators won't buy you any new lines. Compare the cost of one km U-Bahn to how many elevtors you'd get for the same amount of money. 

Besides, it's actually a sign of civilization to enable anyone to use the U-Bahn - other than other metro systems worldwide that lack elevators, Berlin has hardly any escalators, meaning you've got to climb the stairs yourself. Thus, the elevators do not only easen live for people in wheelchairs but for anyone who has a problem with stairs. Be it someone with a broken leg and crutches or old people.


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## nr23Derek

I was dreading using the S bahn on my recent visit to Berlin (August) because of the problems, but actually it was working fine - indeed it's one hell of a network.

U-55 is a truly sad little line as it is though, I had a go on it out of interest but it's hardly worth the effort! But the whole route will be well worth having, indeed it's amazing a line along Unterdenlinden wasn't built years ago.

I was last in Berlin in 1996 and it's changed a lot, especially the transport network, it's a real joy to travel around the place now. One moan though, why don't the U and S bahn lines at Potsdammer Platz actually connect in one station complex? All that building work yet you still have to come tot he surface to change between the two.


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## Justme

My main gripe when I was in Berlin a couple of weeks ago was the lack of signage and information. So many stations I went to had no network map. Nothing. Many had very poor signs giving information onto what platform you should go to for connections to the city - often they just named the end station of the line, and you need to look at the map to see if that is the correct line say for Potsdamerplatz - and then there was no map.

There were also stations which gave no indication of when the next train was coming, quite poor really.

And thirdly, when lines are out of service like large sections of the U2, none of the maps on the trains or stations (that did exist) even hinted on this. I got on an S-bahn at the Hauptbahnhof to Alexanderplatz and then changed to the U2 to head north. Nothing told me the U2 stopped two stations away because the rest of the line was being rebuilt until we were kicked off the train. In other cities, they would have stickers on the maps, or new maps on every train carriage and station that showed the stretches of lines or stations closed for renovation.

There are some lovely stations and lines on the Berlin network, and it is quite large, but I do feel it has deteriorated quite a bit in the last few years. I can see where they are doing renovations, but they also need to take care of the existing open network.


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## nr23Derek

Justme said:


> And thirdly, when lines are out of service like large sections of the U2, none of the maps on the trains or stations (that did exist) even hinted on this.


I had what can only be described as a surreal experience on U line 1. I got on at Kottbusser Tor and the destination info in the train told me it was going to Uhlandstr - the west end of the line. I had intended to go to Glesidreieck to change to line 2.

For various complicated reasons I got off early at Hallesches Tor. As it was a Sunday and a nice day I decided to walk tot he next station, Mockern Bruke. As I got near the station the next train came along. So, having decided I'd missed it I decided to carry on following the line on foot. I did notice that no-one left the station from that train and, oddly, the train didn't seem to drive on along the track. 

The line crosses the river and goes on a viaduct between the buildings, except is doesn't - the viaduct isn't there and the line comes to an abrupt end.

Confused I walked on and approached Glesidreieck station, when I saw a train apparently coming along the viaduct from the direction of Mockern Bruke. Now I was really confused and began to doubt the fact that I'd seen the lack of viaduct.

When I got to the station on line two it was clear that the train I'd seen approaching the station was on line 2, not line 1 and line 1 was indeed closed here.

I guess the train I'd heard arrive at Mockern Bruke unloaded all its passengers who then made their way to line 7 which crosses there, which is why they didn't come out of the station.

But yeah, some kind of "Line closed for repair" notice on the route maps would have been nice.

Derek


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## flierfy

Not a single management policy of recent years has really been abandoned. Cost cuttings have partly been taken back though. Privatization of the holding company, however, is only been delayed and still on the cards.


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## hadrett32

rheintram said:


> decent? S-Bahn performance is anything but decent.


compared to North American public transport it is decent :lol:


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## Spam King

hadrett32 said:


> compared to North American public transport it is decent :lol:


I've always loved the Berlin S-Bahn, it's actually my favorite mass transit system. I love the trains, stations are for the most part nice and service was great. Of course though, I lived in Berlin from 2006-2009, before all the troubles...

I loooove the 481/482 trainsets! They're so beautiful and comfortable.


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## Fabri88

hadrett32 said:


> compared to North American public transport it is decent :lol:


Also compared with London Tube, I think!

Berlin's U-Bahn is very fast! S-Bahn lines are very long, so it seems that trains run slowly, but I think it isn't so.

Sure, I can only compare Milan Metropolitana, London Tube and Berlin U+S-Bahn, but if I have to choose, my vote goes for Berlin's transport system!


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## nr23Derek

What actually makes the S and U bahn different systems? They both seem to do the same sort of job.

Derek


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## Kot Behemot

U-bahn is mostly underground, and reaches more parts of the city. It also works on a shorter distance between stops and I think it has smaller capacity. 
S-bahn is faster, elevated, has longer distance between stops and is not so widespread downtown. 
You could say that the Berlin tram is doing the same sort of job and you wouldn't be wrong...


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## Baron Hirsch

nr23Derek said:


> What actually makes the S and U bahn different systems? They both seem to do the same sort of job.


Short question, long answer. Yes, U-Bahn is mostly underground and S-Bahn mostly overground, but that is not all. U-Bahn lines are haphazard lines that run mostly through the inner districts at about 5 minute intervals. They are unsystematic and their main aim is to serve innercity commutes. 
The S-Bahn instead is a commuter train system which is most important for the outer districts; originally they were part of the regular train system, but at the beginning of the 20th century were seperated track- and electricity-wise, so usually they run parallel to long-distance (or former long-distance) lines. On the three lines that serve the inner city, S-Bahns run at tight intervals of up to 3 minutes, but then when they reach the outer districts, they fan out to serve seperate routes at 10-20 minute intervals. 
The system in Berlin has even more different categories of rail services: there is Regional-Express, trains running on the regular long-distance train grid usually at hourly intervals, arriving at neighboring cities such as Potsdam or Oranienburg at a much faster speed as they do not stop as often as an S-Bahn and in some cases continiuing as much as 200 km outside of Berlin. 
There is regular Regionalbahn, which is mostly to serve the unelectrified secondary lines that are beyond the S-Bahn network and not part of the long-distance network. 
Back inside the city, there are the aforementioned trams, which are divided into "metrotrams" that run every 5-10 minutes on important inner city routes and regular trams running every 20 minutes on secondary routes. Although important especially for getting around East Berlin where the U-Bahn network is not so dense, they are a much slower affair with frequent stops and not comparable to some modern rapid transit systems in other cities.
Sorry for complicating things, but I wanted to be comprehensive.


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## flierfy

nr23Derek said:


> What actually makes the S and U bahn different systems? They both seem to do the same sort of job.


The real difference is its legal status. The S-Bahn although separated on its own tracks is a mainline service. Its operation is subject to the EBO, the German railway regulation. The Underground in contrast is regulated by the BOStrab.


----------



## nr23Derek

And of course the trains are a different colour 

Thanks for the answers. The S bahn network is really impressive now its all back up and running. When I knew the city back in the 80's when it was divided I always thought of the s-bahn as an old, derelict system and from what I knew of the east, which wasn't much, the network was fractured and incomplete.

Last summer I spent a wet day riding the dogs head circle line and generally exploring the system. Great fun!

Derek


----------



## Kot Behemot

Both systems are great. I always wondered how did it look during the cold war. Of c I read about it on the net, but it I'm sure that only the rare few had insight into the real situation with the ghost, abandoned and closed stations at the time.

Today, it's a pity that Berlin authorities don't have money to expand U-bahn network as Berlin deserves. 

Offtopic: Derek, if I'm not wrong our cities are "sisters" :lol:


----------



## nr23Derek

Kot Behemot said:


> Offtopic: Derek, if I'm not wrong our cities are "sisters" :lol:


Indeed :banana:

Derek


----------



## Wilhem275

A very interesting documentary about S-Bahn at Wall's time (1981), on ZDF.

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/haup.../1259618/Zwischen-den-Gleisen-wächst-das-Gras


----------



## Dakkus

FabriFlorence said:


> Billpa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would guess that's the only example of border control in a metro in world history?
> 
> 
> 
> I think yes.
Click to expand...

This is only halfway true. Berlin is the only such city, but during the short time after the wall had fallen but there were still two Germanies, they opened all stations along U6 and U8 for passengers. On each of the reopened stations there was also a (lazy) border control.
I do not remember where I learned this, but I must have found it either on berliner-untergrundbahn.de or on some of the numerous info signs about local history in Berlin. I found this an extremely interesting theme when I moved to Berlin and hunted down all the information I could


----------



## Dakkus

Hybrid 87 said:


> Can someone post a pic of how does today look that place where the U-Bahn went through that building?


Here's a pic of the place on google street view: http://maps.google.fi/maps?f=q&sour...D6iEPJ2rW7fH-ak2QsqdzA&cbp=12,209.93,,0,-7.95 .
The train crosses over the street inside an elevated tunnel that begins just before the street. A weird construction. Unfortunately Google seems to have considered the house wall a face and has blurred it.
I would guess the aforementioned "same place after the war" pic is taken elsewhere and this is the place where the older picture was taken.


----------



## Baron Hirsch

*New lines to Berlin Main Station u/c*

Today marks the official beginning of construction on improvement to the Berlin main station's accessibility to local public transport. Deutsche Bahn is building an S-Bahn link from the station's subterranean lower floor to the Nordring. It will fan out both westwards to Westhafen and eastwards to Wedding. Passengers coming in from Jungfernheide (northern Charlottenburg) or Schönhauser Allee (northern Prenzlauer Berg) can thus reach the main station without changing. Due to a number of tunnels and bridges necessary for this, despite the relatively short distance of 7 km, constructing will take until 2017.
Also a tram stop will link up northern Mitte and southern Prenzlauer Berg: an extension from Nordbahnhof to Hauptbahnhof begins today and will be finished either in 2013 or 2015, depending on whom you believe.
Both lines were already planned to be ready by the time of the station's opening 5 years ago, but spending cuts, construction delays and in the case of the tram protest against the misuse of the tram construction for widening roads for car traffic considerably delayed these projects.
Thus, we have in Berlin the following rail projects under construction to my knowledge:
RegionalBahn: access to the new airport in Schönefeld (to open with the opening of the airport; but the actual Dresdner Bahn still is not u/C)
S-Bahn: Westhafen/Wedding-Hauptbahnhof (2017)
UBahn: Brandenburger Tor to Alexanderplatz (stalled due to archaeological digs: 2017?)
Tram: extension to Adlershof (to open late 2011)
Tram: extension Nordbahnhof to Hauptbahnhof (2015?)
Not alot. The Greens promise to invest heavily into tramlines if they are elected, but they are not very strong on upkeeping their promises. Let' see.
Did I miss anything?


----------



## Wilhem275

Baron Hirsch said:


> Also a tram stop will link up northern Mitte and southern Prenzlauer Berg: an extension from Nordbahnhof to Hauptbahnhof


 M10 S+U Warschauer Str. - S+U Hauptbahnhof?

So, the famous S21 is coming to life. What will be the stations of origin for these two western and eastern branches?

In my opinion, Berlin already has a great system, which at the moment can cope with the demand (and the whole system seems widely oversized, although I love it). What is missing is a serious extension of the tram network in south-western districts, I think, and completion of some small missing pieces (e.g. U3 to Mexicoplatz).


----------



## Baron Hirsch

Wilhem275 said:


> M10 S+U Warschauer Str. - S+U Hauptbahnhof?
> 
> So, the famous S21 is coming to life. What will be the stations of origin for these two western and eastern branches?


M6, M8, and M10 are supposed to terminate at Hauptbahnhof in future. 
you raise an important point about the future S-bahn lines which will actually connect to Hauptbahnhof. From the northwest, I would let the line start in Spandau, as it would probably be faster than the lines passing Westkreuz to Hauptbahnhof. From the northeast it is much harder. Either you can do a mini-line from say, Greifswalder Straße which is much too short for an S-Bahn, or you extend the line via Pankow, but than you have a line which is not too different from present-day S2 via Friedrichstraße. Either way is not really efficient in creating alternatives to present routes. By the way, one news report said that already by 2019 the S21 would also reach Potsdamer Platz.


----------



## flierfy

Baron Hirsch said:


> From the northwest, I would let the line start in Spandau, as it would probably be faster than the lines passing Westkreuz to Hauptbahnhof.


There is no S-Bahn line from Spandau to Jungfernheide. The only pair of S-Bahn tracks to Spandau diverges from the Stadtbahn line at Westkreuz.


----------



## Wilhem275

I have a doubt about the S21 link Hbf - Potsdamer Platz: has the tunnel already been built, along with the mainline and U55 ones, or will it need a completely new project?

About a Spandau-Hbf link being faster than via Westkreuz, you are probably right, since today's RE line via Jungfernheide is much faster than via Charlottenburg, although, as flierfy said, at the moment that link should be built from scratch (the return of the Siemensbahn would be close ).

For the eastern branch, I would consider a simple shuttle service just like U55, so a short link is not that bad. Greifswalder Str. - Hbf would be better than Pankow - Hbf, because today in Nordkreuz you have the Ges. - Bornholmer Str. branch very well server, while the Ges. - Schoenhauser Allee branch only has the Ring connection.
Today, if you come down from the Bornholmer Str. lines, you only have to change once, in Friedrichstr.; if you are in the northwestern ring you are screwed. Once I almost missed a train, I was in Greifswalder and had to change in Gesundbrunnen and Friedrichstr.!
Our "S22" would fill this gap.

On the other hand, with the completion of the tram network, northern Prenzlauer Berg will be already connected with Hbf, so this short "S22" could be a doubled service.

Very interesting issue, indeed. And still we're not talking about what will happen south of Potsdamer Platz!


----------



## Momo1435

The French company Keolis (57% owned by the SNCF) wants to bid to run parts of the Berlin S-Bahn from 2017.

http://www.morgenpost.de/berlin/article1661145/Privatbahn-will-Berliner-S-Bahn-uebernehmen.html (full story)
http://www.keolis.de/no_cache/news-..._durch_db_aber_mit_transparentem_prozess.html

Even though the new contract will only start in 2017 the first signs of the competition between the 2 companies are already played out in the media. This is because the DB already wants to order new trains that are needed to cope with the growth and to tackle the problems that it has with it's current fleet. Keolis now says that they are behind a new order by the DB, but the process should be transparent for possible contenders in order for them to have a say in the process. According to them the experience that Keolis has in urban transport in Paris, London and Melbourne can already be used in the advantage of the S-Bahn. Keolis also stresses the new contract should have clear conditions for the transfer of rolling stock when one of the competitors wins (part of) the new contract. 

It's clear that Keolis wants to bid on the S-Bahn services, and that they are not certain that it will be an open competition. It will be interesting how this will play out, it could become quite messy.


----------



## flierfy

Wilhem275 said:


> I have a doubt about the S21 link Hbf - Potsdamer Platz: has the tunnel already been built, along with the mainline and U55 ones, or will it need a completely new project?


A few hundred metres of tunnel are already there. But most the works including a river crossing has still to be done.


----------



## trainrover

^^








● U-bahn trainspotting for the 1st 2½ minutes
● flying through ghost West German station imperceptible 
● vintage metro ride atop elevated segment through dense East Berlin neighbourhood
● upon emersion, U-bahn races a tram (3'09")
● lots of faulty door leafs
● passenger shuts a door leaf herself prior to departure (5'07")
● thereafter, 1 of 2 titches looks like he wants to open it
● 2nd ride through cityies' outskirts​


----------



## trainrover

^^








● arrival atop lively S-Bahn interchange (2'00")
● 2nd ride aboard vintage S-Bahn :? attractive wood pannelling on board
● plenty of onboard trainspotting
● loco raced briefly
● depots too
● *well*-filmed, this one is :applause:​


----------



## trainrover

^^








● starts with some West German U-bahn spotting
● wall paralleled (2'12")
● ghost S-bahn station :? passed (2'40")
● reverts to U-bahn spotting (5'09")
● U-bahn whistle courtesy of Roadrunner :? (5'51")
● reverts to S-bahn spotting (6'35")
● reverts to U-bahn spotting (7'41")
● museum on-site, cautious ride in vintage tram smoking cab atop heritage elevated U-bahn (9'12")
● S-bahn spotting (12'21")​


----------



## trainrover

29040250
:dj:​


----------



## trainrover

trainrover said:


> 29040250
> :dj:​


----------



## trainrover

semi-:dj:​


----------



## trainrover

:dj:​


----------



## trainrover

mute! :wallbash:​


----------



## schmidt

I hate those Brandenburger Gate stickers in the U-Bahn trains windows.


----------



## trainrover

How about de-escalating your emotion to a mere disliking; besides, are you replicating your snub to all of us, for I can't readily tell what you must be referring to :?


----------



## Minato ku

U6 Kochstraße








U6 inside a H stock








U6 Mehringdamm








U7 Adenauerplatz








U7 Rathaus Neukolln








U7 Rathaus Spandau


----------



## Minato ku

U2 Klosterstraße

















U2 Pankow








U2 elevated section








U2 Eberswalder Straße

















U2 Inside a DL type.


----------



## rybak




----------



## Falubaz

^^ Awesome idea for a wall~!
But the U5 - east side from Alex seems a bit 'out of the shape'.


----------



## trainrover

Mind you, its accompaniment was *dreadful* :wallbash: I can't imagine how *bad* dancing to that rubbish must look ...


----------



## Svartmetall

Falubaz said:


> ^^ Awesome idea for a wall~!
> But the U5 - east side from Alex seems a bit 'out of the shape'.


Agreed. I'd love to see someone do Tokyo. :lol:


----------



## rybak

Falubaz said:


> ^^ Awesome idea for a wall~!
> But the U5 - east side from Alex seems a bit 'out of the shape'.


Thanks
It was making from new BVG map from December 2011:








May be a little bit. 



Svartmetall said:


> Agreed. I'd love to see someone do Tokyo. :lol:


Tokyo


----------



## Darryl

*U5*

Any info regarding the U5 extension connecting Alexanderplatz and Brandenburger Tor? How far along are they? When will any of the stations open?


----------



## Sky Harbor

^^ If I'm not mistaken, the extension is around 5.5 km long and will open in 2017.


----------



## XIX

^^Thank you


----------



## nr23Derek

Wilhem275 said:


> Friedrichstraße was used by Westerns as an interchange to the S-Bahn trains running on the western part of the Stadtbahn (not depicted on that map). The road accesses to the U-Bahnhof were sealed off; the only possible connection was to the western tracks in the S-Bahnhof.
> 
> Despite lying in East Berlin territory, the Lehrter Bhf - Friedrichstr. part of the Stadtbahn was actually part of the West Berlin rail services, Friedrichstr. being the frontier station. The track layout was different from today's one: 4 tracks were dedicated to S-Bahn (each couple being separated from the other) and 2 tracks to those few main railway services crossing the frontier.


It should also be pointed out that Friedrichstr was a point of entry to East Berlin (at least for foreigners like me, not sure about Germans), So you could take the u and s -bahn into the east. 

Derek


----------



## Baron Hirsch

Yes, West German were allowed to pass the border coming from the U-Bahn or the S-Bahn that coming from the West ended there. In fact it was the main border crossing by rail. Also, there was a kiosk on the U-Bahn plattform selling alcohol for Deutsch Mark that was open all night. You could go there, buy booze and return to the American or British occupied sector without border or customs control.


----------



## GEwinnen

A train of the Berlin S-Bahn derailed a few hours ago, 6 people were injured:

Video:

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama/zugunfall-in-berlin-s-bahn-entgleist-mehrere-verletzte-1.1446346


----------



## Wilhem275

Oh, my poor 481s again


----------



## Kolothos

I was recently in Berlin, made very good use of the S-Bahn! Great system.


----------



## trainrover




----------



## trainrover




----------



## vandiss

Azia said:


> will there be an expand line to falkensee in 2015 ?


Latest update I know is that the Berlin Senate wants to extend the S-bahn to Falkensee (Transport Plan 2017). 

However, the Brandenburg government don't want to fund their part of the project meaning in the first instance the line would run as far as the Berlin/Brandenburg border (Albrechtshof).

Link


----------



## Suburbanist

I have some questions: 

- what is the track arrangement between U-Bahn stations Nollendhorfplatz and Wittenbergplatz? Could they re-shuffle/truncate services there if they wanted, for instance, routing U3 to Adernauerplatz or routing U4 to Pankow?

- why can't they deploy a system that prevents train doors from opening until the trains are completely stopped with brakes locked (instead of opening when the train is still moving some centimeters per second)?

- does BVG have plans to build more direct physical access between stations, especially between the Ring S-Bahn station and the U-Bahn stations when lines meet?

- some U-Bahn lines could be easily extended to the nearest S-Bahn line increasing connectivity. Do they have plane extending the U-Bahn from Adernauerplatz to S-Bahn Halensee, or from Krumme Lank to S-Bahn Mexikoplatz. 

- do they have plans to upgrade some of the former East Berlin tram lines to elevated or underground metro? The line along route M17 seems a good candidate: plenty of blocks around, but not so close that an elevated line would be detrimental. 

- why does BVG "cheats" users signaling buses or trams as if they were part of the same service? Just to avoid showcasing how western parts of the city have no trams and rely on crappy buses?


----------



## friedrichstrasse

Suburbanist said:


> - why can't they deploy a system that prevents train doors from opening until the trains are completely stopped with brakes locked (instead of opening when the train is still moving some centimeters per second)?


It saves time, some seconds at every stop.



Suburbanist said:


> - some U-Bahn lines could be easily extended to the nearest S-Bahn line increasing connectivity. Do they have plane extending the U-Bahn from Adernauerplatz to S-Bahn Halensee, or from Krumme Lank to S-Bahn Mexikoplatz.


Yes, since the 1930s :nuts:


----------



## Wilhem275

Suburbanist said:


> - do they have plans to upgrade some of the former East Berlin tram lines to elevated or underground metro? The line along route M17 seems a good candidate: plenty of blocks around, but not so close that an elevated line would be detrimental.


Trams in those areas are already pretty fast, and stops are often located at roads crossing, so there's not that much loss of time at traffic lights 



Suburbanist said:


> - why does BVG "cheats" users signaling buses or trams as if they were part of the same service? Just to avoid showcasing how western parts of the city have no trams and rely on crappy buses?


They don't: buses have a purple rounded symbol, trams a red squared one. Same colors of the respective lines on the city map (trams are in orange to avoid confusion with railways, in red too).
Plus, there is a specific map of the tram network, which doesn't exist for buses (and would be greatly appreciated, at least M-buses...).

M-lines exist for both buses and trams, but it is a commercial designation for a network of lines (MetroNetz: http://www.bvg.de/index.php/en/17104/name/Metro+Routes.html) which keep a minimum schedule of 10', and run 24/24.
I also remember M-lines had to keep a minimum average speed but I can't find any data about it hno:


----------



## outage

Wilhem275 said:


> I also remember M-lines had to keep a minimum average speed but I can't find any data about it hno:


That would be nice you will find it. It is uncommon.


----------



## friedrichstrasse

I find confusing to call bus and tram lines as "Metros" and to identify them with a "M".


----------



## Falubaz

^^Why? Metrobus and Metrotram. They are metropolitan services hence the 'M'.


----------



## friedrichstrasse

"Metro" is an international term that refers to U-Bahn.


----------



## Northridge

^^I agree, a little confusing. But I guess it''s only people with special interest that care. 

As for buses on the maps, they are drawn in the big map that you usually find on the u-bahn. I think they sell those for 30€. Unfortunately I forgot about buying one when I was in Berlin, which is a shame since they are really nice and big. 
They are not good to use on the fly though.


----------



## Wilhem275

You can get the city map for around € 5 and I suggest to buy it  There's also the big one for € 30 or so.

But what is missed is the scheme of the bus network, while they have it for trams and S+U and also night lines (including night MetroBuses).

About the "Metro" word, there's not much ambiguity since BVG usually refers to trams and buses, not Metros.
I agree that first time users probably don't know the difference between







and









but whatever, to the user it's not that much important to know if a tram or bus will show up, as long as he's in the right spot to wait for it and the vehicle will display the proper line number.

Informed passengers, and transit junkies, have the complete information at hand, if needed.


The really tricky one is the X-bus! If you get on this one you may end up where you don't want to.











outage said:


> That would be nice you will find it. It is uncommon.


I remember many years ago I read something about it, maybe it was a minimum average of 20 km/h for trams and 15 for buses?

The only data I can find is that the average of the whole tramnetz is 19 km/h, which is not bad:
http://www.bvg.de/index.php/en/17106/name/Tram.html


----------



## nr23Derek

Wilhem275 said:


> The really tricky one is the X-bus! If you get on this one you may end up where you don't want to.


Now that sounds just plain spooky... Go on then, what's an X bus?

Derek


----------



## Wilhem275

Express buses (they don't only exist in Berlin) apply to buses the common express concept. They're buses which follow mostly the same route of a main line, but stop only at selected points to be a little faster.
When you look at the map, you have to check carefully the symbol of the stop, a full purple circle or the same with the white X.
http://www.bvg.de/index.php/en/17130/name/ExpressBus.html

With a nice sense of humor, the TXL line not only goes to TXL but is also an X line 

So if you get on X11 instead of M11 you may miss your stop, and sometimes they even follow different paths. X11 and M11 western termini are in completely different neighbourhoods!

I'm not against the concept of ExpressBuses, but if they follow a different path they should just give them a different number.


----------



## SturmBeobachter

flierfy said:


> That is simply not true. *Signage* in Germany *is rather excellent.* *Fonts, colour schemes and overall design is well thought-out and user-optimised. Whether it's roads or public transport facilities, the signage is clear to read and fool-proof.*


Yes I agree, but Austria is not in Germany.


----------



## fifqa

Northridge said:


> Yea, it was totally my fault. The one thing that made me certain was the time stamp on the ticket.
> 
> I quickly figured out that knowing the end stop of the train before entering the station/connecting line would help a lot, and it did.
> Signs like this is usually pretty good to have:


Though you have signs like this on every U-Bahn platform in Berlin. 










Here on the left side of the picture.


----------



## outage

flierfy said:


> That is simply not true. Signage in Germany is rather excellent. Fonts, colour schemes and overall design is well thought-out and user-optimised. Whether it's roads or public transport facilities, the signage is clear to read and fool-proof.


I agree. Standarisation is the best and placement of these signs are intuitive - no need to look for them.


----------



## Wilhem275

tunnel owl said:


> Ostkreuz RE platform maybe does a good job for airport-trainservice one day,


I was actually thinking about the RE stop on the Stadtbahn  although the RE stop on the Ring level will be an interesting new toy in Berlin's network.

Today RE stop at Karlshorts (and not even all of them), where you just get the tram, and Ostbhf, where you get... nothing, missing the huge amount of people moving along the eastern Ringbahn and also the three S lines to Lichtenberg.
I consider this an important gap.

With the new stop not only the Ring will be linked, but also people from S5-7-75 will have a faster way to cut through the city with RE, and with tram 21 people coming from the outskirts will have a straight connection with "Ring trams" M10 and M13 (with a better interchange than Warschauer Str.). Not to mention the airport link on the upper level, and the fact than finally Lichtenberg will be no more a terminal station.
Good job!

Letting the fantasy go, one could also create a RE link through Ostkreuz and Gesundbrunnen, for example bringing the RB22 to Spandau via Gesund.-Jungfernheid, or a new RE trunk K-Wusterhausen - Ostkreuz - Gesund. - Hbf... (just making examples here).
Although a "Ring RB22" Potsdam - Spandau sounds nice... 


On the other side: Charlottenburg finally has a decent connection S-U7. The RE is not so lucky, being on the wrong side of the station... is there any plan to realign the regio platforms on the same axis as the S ones?.


----------



## tunnel owl

Wilhem275 said:


> I was actually thinking about the RE stop on the Stadtbahn  although the RE stop on the Ring level will be an interesting new toy in Berlin's network.
> 
> On the other side: Charlottenburg finally has a decent connection S-U7. The RE is not so lucky, being on the wrong side of the station... is there any plan to realign the regio platforms on the same axis as the S ones?.


Ah, ok. In fact there will be additional platforms for RE at Ostkreuz when it´s all finished, somehow around 2016/2017. As you said it would improve a lot at this point which is not the case at Westkreuz. 

There are no plans to swap sides of Charlottenburg RE-platforms. It took decades to move S-Bahn-platforms further east to have a shorter way to U7. Still you have 70 m to go, of cause a roof for pedestrians would be useful there. 

Kind regards


----------



## SturmBeobachter

tunnel owl said:


> Ah, ok. In fact there will be additional platforms for RE at Ostkreuz when it´s all finished, somehow around 2016/2017. As you said it would improve a lot at this point which is not the case at Westkreuz.
> 
> There are no plans to swap sides of Charlottenburg RE-platforms. It took decades to move S-Bahn-platforms further east to have a shorter way to U7. Still you have 70 m to go, of cause a roof for pedestrians would be useful there.
> 
> Kind regards


And I hope that someday they will actually finish the access to the platforms for tracks 1 and 2, they're superbly late and of course signage how to actually come there is almost useless.


----------



## tunnel owl

Darryl said:


> Any info regarding the U5 extension connecting Alexanderplatz and Brandenburger Tor? How far along are they? When will any of the stations open?


Today was the official beginning of digging with TBM from Rathaus towards Brandenburger Tor. Took a bike to make some snapshots with my smartphone, hopefully quality is ok.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157634302362785/

Kind regards
Alex


----------



## cristof

are there any plans to enclose metro stations in Berlin with turnstiles?


----------



## Suburbanist

I was quite shocked that BVG allows animals on the transit system. Not service dogs for the blind, but regular pets. That is quite awful and third-world-ish. I understand and accept the need for service dogs, which are extensively trained for more than 2 years to help blind people. I don't understand why a person without disabilities should be able to carry any animal on transit, especially bigger dogs.


----------



## jeromeee

Why? What's the problem with dogs?


----------



## Svartmetall

Suburbanist said:


> I was quite shocked that BVG allows animals on the transit system. Not service dogs for the blind, but regular pets. That is quite awful and third-world-ish. I understand and accept the need for service dogs, which are extensively trained for more than 2 years to help blind people. I don't understand why a person without disabilities should be able to carry any animal on transit, especially bigger dogs.


I'm pleased to say that dogs are 100% allowed on Stockholm public transport too, however, not in all parts of the vehicle. Dogs are only allowed at the back of buses and in the middle carriage of trains so that people with allergies to animals can go to the sections where there are no animals. 

It is not at all "third-worldish", to use your term, to provide service for animal owners.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Animal owners should find other means of transportation (walk, put in the car, animal transport, dog taxi). Else, you get a zoo in the transit system. Like those third world countries where you have people going on jitneys with pigs, hens and God knows what else.


----------



## Autostädter

I remember that incident. The pony was taken down soon afterwards for travelling without a valid ticket (it claimed it lost it due to not having hands but the officers rightly did not accept that excuse). Ponies have had many freedoms in our country but they are starting to take advantage of that. Now they are mugging, disturbing people by openly listening to inappropriate audio books and - worst of all - they are incredibly racist due to their rural background.


----------



## Svartmetall

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Animal owners should find other means of transportation (walk, put in the car, animal transport, dog taxi). Else, you get a zoo in the transit system. Like those third world countries where you have people going on jitneys with pigs, hens and God knows what else.


I find the derision you show towards the non-OECD countries highly derogatory. Like I said, it is allowed on our public transport network but it certainly does not degenerate into a zoo. 

Public transportation is just that - to assist people moving around an urban area and to make it as convenient as possible to do so. I am very glad that if I were an animal owner I would be allowed to take my pet to the vet without hindrance AND without inconveniencing other users given that everyone knows how the system of where animals are and are not allowed, works.


----------



## Suburbanist

Svartmetall said:


> I find the derision you show towards the non-OECD countries highly derogatory. Like I said, it is allowed on our public transport network but it certainly does not degenerate into a zoo.


I'm not referring to all OECD countries, but to certain transit systems in certain countries/cities. Actually many non-OECD countries have very harsh regulations on transit and stepped up enforcement of things like no loitering or no jaywalking around stops. I'm referring to something like this






Of course there are many systems that are top-quality in otherwise more poor countries...



> Public transportation is just that - to assist people moving around an urban area and to make it as convenient as possible to do so.


Does that mean you should be able to carry an IKEA cart on a subway at peak hour?


----------



## diablo234

Well in Italy (Florence, Rome, etc) they allow dogs on public transit and from what I have seen they (the dogs) are pretty well behaved and do not cause anyone problems. I don't see a reason why dog owners should not be able to take their pets into public transit or even restaurants and bars, etc.


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## Suburbanist

Anyway, animals aside, a question: do they plan to expand the use of those Brandebur Tor stickers to S-Bahn? They look quite effective to reduce, drastically, window scratching.

For those who don't know, I"m talking about these: 










They are put on windows of U-Bahn trains, and it makes hard to see some scratch drawing.


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## noisrevid

As someone who lives in Berlin, i wouldn´t recommend that and I dont think that they have plans to do so. For U-Bahn its quite ok to protect the windows this way because it goes maynly underground. But for S-Bahn, which goes mainly upside earth it would disturb the view to the outside.

Here are some visuals for the new stations "Unter den Linden", "Museumsinsel" and "Berliner Rathaus" in U5 line.

*Unter den Linden*




























http://www.bvg.de/index.php/de/1041485/name/Unter+den+Linden.html

*Museumsinsel*



















http://www.bvg.de/index.php/de/1041486/name/Museumsinsel.html

*Berliner Rathaus*



















http://www.bvg.de/index.php/de/1041487/name/Berliner+Rathaus.html


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## Hybrid 87

It looks like I've missed something new from Berlin 

Just to be clear about the U5 project:
The U5 will be connected from Alexanderplatz to Brandenburger Tor and in the end of the project the U5 will run from Honow to Hauptbahnhof?

What's going on with U6 between Franzosische Strasse and Friedrichstrasse? Are they building an interchange with the future U5?

And what's up with U8 between Boddinstrasse and Hermannstrasse?


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## noisrevid

You are right about the U5. The line will run from Hönow to Hauptbahnhof.
The construction works for the interchange station between U5 and U6 had already started.
By now the U6 is split into 2 parts because of the constructions which are need to be done underneath the line of U6. If you take a closer look at this visualisation you can see the upper train too.










I dont know whats going on by U8, but i will do some research and post it later, maybe tommorow.


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## jeromeee

You're not wrong! S45 terminates at Hermannstr. due to construction works. You can take S41 from Hermannstr. to Südkreuz, there is replacement bus service to Bundesplatz but I guess it's much faster to take bus line M46 from Südkreuz.


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## Wilhem275

Two questions about what I named the "Köllnische Dreieck" , the triangle Neukölln/Baumschulenweg/Treptower Park.

Treptower Park and Baumschulenweg stations have at least 3 or 4 tracks, with indipendent access from both possible directions, meaning that trains must not wait outside the station and can be received at the same time.

1) Will Neukölln be upgraded with a second platform? It can be a bottleneck.

2) Baumschulenweg had been rebuilt with new bridges and platforms, and spaces allow a 4th track (direction Treptower Park), if a new bridge is added. Are there any plans to do so?
Although I don't think it's urgent.


The same kind of bottlenecks will be seen when S21 will be completed: Südkreuz (upper level), Wedding and Westhafen are all single platform stations, and so will probably be Hbf (S)... while Julius-Leber-Brücke was designed properly, and Potsdamer Platz is ok from 1939 
I guess what will happen with a potential Gleisdreieck S-station...


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## whatsuplucas

jeromeee said:


> You're not wrong! S45 terminates at Hermannstr. due to construction works. You can take S41 from Hermannstr. to Südkreuz, there is replacement bus service to Bundesplatz but I guess it's much faster to take bus line M46 from Südkreuz.


So... it's not even running to Südkreuz? Damn. Thanks!


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## tunnel owl

Wilhem275 said:


> 1) Will Neukölln be upgraded with a second platform? It can be a bottleneck.
> 
> 2) Baumschulenweg had been rebuilt with new bridges and platforms, and spaces allow a 4th track (direction Treptower Park), if a new bridge is added. Are there any plans to do so?
> Although I don't think it's urgent.
> ...


Back in 1989 when the S-Bahn-Südring was rebuild, there were talks about a new station Neukölln, lying over the bridge. But this bridge is very massive and it would be expensive to be rebuild. That´s the reason why there is no second platform for the S-Bahn. In fact it is already a bottleneck. There are no plans to add a fourth track at Baumschulenweg. Obviously it is sufficient to have two tracks where the lines split of.



Wilhem275 said:


> The same kind of bottlenecks will be seen when S21 will be completed: Südkreuz (upper level), Wedding and Westhafen are all single platform stations, and so will probably be Hbf (S)... while Julius-Leber-Brücke was designed properly, and Potsdamer Platz is ok from 1939
> I guess what will happen with a potential Gleisdreieck S-station...


Yes, you´re right, only Julius-Leber-Brücke allows the addition of further tracks and Wedding might be a bottleneck one day. Westhafen is maybe not that worse as it could be the terminus for the new line. There is space foreseen for siding tracks there. Nowadays we tend to build infrastructure too small because money is everything. But S21 from Potsdamer Platz to Südkreuz is just a dream anyway.

Kind regards


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## Murakamisenior

Is there a direct rail link to Berlin-Schönefeld Airport and Tegel Airport?
Maybe I will go to Berlin in few months, and I would like to know it.


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## Wilhem275

Murakamisenior said:


> Is there a direct rail link to Berlin-Schönefeld Airport and Tegel Airport?
> Maybe I will go to Berlin in few months, and I would like to know it.


No rail link from Tegel (and no more Tegel at all, in a few months...).
From Schönefeld you have two S-Bahn lines and some RegioExpress trains; since they cost the same, I suggest using RE trains because they're a lot faster.



tunnel owl said:


> Back in 1989 when the S-Bahn-Südring was rebuild, there were talks about a new station Neukölln, lying over the bridge. But this bridge is very massive and it would be expensive to be rebuild. That´s the reason why there is no second platform for the S-Bahn. In fact it is already a bottleneck.


I think I have a cheap solution  Since they will have to complete the 2-tracks freight line of the Ring from Hermannstr. to Treptower Park, they could remove some of the tracks beside Neukölln station.
Let's say the current S-tracks are 1 & 2, the layout may be:
- 1 from Sonnenallee
- 2 from Köllnische Heide
- 3 to Köllnische Heide
- (4) covered by the new platform
- 5 to Sonnenallee
- 6 & 7 freight Ring line

The current freight sidings of Neukölln (there are always Ludmillas and containers parked there...) may be moved to different areas that today are empty, without the need of important works:
- shorter tracks can be shifted to the empty area between Hermannstr. and Neukölln (Hertabrücke is wide enough)
- longer tracks can be fitted in the empty siding between Sonnenallee and Kiefholzstraße

All bridges and main works are ready for this operation. Only problem I imagine is that it would not be possible to install a new lift straight to U7, because it's almost impossible to create a hole in this structure without a complex operation. All accesses to the second platform would be through the existing one.




tunnel owl said:


> Yes, you´re right, only Julius-Leber-Brücke allows the addition of further tracks and Wedding might be a bottleneck one day. Westhafen is maybe not that worse as it could be the terminus for the new line. There is space foreseen for siding tracks there. Nowadays we tend to build infrastructure too small because money is everything. But S21 from Potsdamer Platz to Südkreuz is just a dream anyway.


Yep, maybe I'm a little obsessed with capacity, but I always use Berlin as an example of "always provide indipendent tracks to get into the station, when two lines meet", and now I see they're losing this golden rule 
So, even if there is space between Westhafen and Beusselstr. for a terminus, I'm worried by S21 and S42 getting in each other's way (and even worse at Wedding).

I'll go on with S21, this topic always tickles me...
I wouldn't even terminate it at Westhafen: ok, there's U9, but still it's in the middle of nothing. I'd try to reach Jungfernheide, but since there is no space for a terminus... let's make it Westend (they have many ready sidings there). Well, let's make it S46 K-Wusterhausen - Hbf 

Perleberger Brücke station will easily have indipendent tracks, so it would not be a problem to have Hbf with just one platform.

Then, was there a final decision about building or not a Reichstag S-Bahnhof in Friedrich-Ebert-Platz? I think it would be a wise choice: 1 km both from Hbf and Potsdamer Platz, and a very good access from all the Reichstagufer/Brandenburger Tor area.
Without that stop the "S21" stretch is at risk of being ignored as a way for getting in Mitte, with 2 km without stops (same service REs provide).

I would not be too pessimistic about the southern part of S21. Once they reach the "Heuboden" under Ebertstr., most of the work is done: tunnels from that siding down to Mendelssohn-Bartholdy-Park are basically already built, and everything south of Landwehrkanal will be overground in almost empty areas.
Doesn't come for free, as some new viaducts are needed, but having no more tunnels to dig is a good vantage point:banana:

Another great doubt about S21 is: why they didn't keep a temporary service Gesundbrunnen - Südkreuz like they did in 2006? The line has lot of spare capacity, and RE services don't run often enough to consider it a city link (and some even terminate at Hbf).
In my trips I often felt such frequent service is missing, and the infrastructure is ready... it would not cost a fortune, it's a 12' run and a couple of BR442 would be enough.

Mfg


----------



## flierfy

Wilhem275 said:


> Another great doubt about S21 is: why they didn't keep a temporary service Gesundbrunnen - Südkreuz like they did in 2006? The line has lot of spare capacity, and RE services don't run often enough to consider it a city link (and some even terminate at Hbf).
> In my trips I often felt such frequent service is missing, and the infrastructure is ready... it would not cost a fortune, it's a 12' run and a couple of BR442 would be enough.


S21 services were a mock of an S-Bahn. In fact these services were more like RE intensifier. Just that RE services are of little use for inner-Berlin travel. Hence these services were shunned. Omitting stations like Wedding along its way could never provide the same benefits for passengers that a proper S-Bahn will. Once there is a real S-Bahn running patronage will be quite high. That's for sure.


----------



## Wilhem275

Of course it was a RE limited to the city and skipped important stops, but better an incomplete service than no service.

I don't propose it instead of the proper S21, but it would have filled a gap from 2006 to 202x, and would also have generated a stronger demand for that connection (pushing the completion of the real S21).
As of today, Gesundbrunnen - Hbf, Hbf - Potsdamer Platz and Hbf - Südkreuz connections are not well served, because they follow a regional schedule and not a urban one; and S21 is still far in the future.
"RE21" would provide immediate relief at a relatively low price, and with no need for new infrastructure; waiting for the complete solution.

If I miss RE3 at :31, I'm basically screwed for 30'. To Potsdamer Platz I'd better go out and get an M41, to Südkreuz I must change anyway.


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## whatsuplucas

Wilhem275 said:


> No rail link from Tegel (and no more Tegel at all, in a few months...).
> From Schönefeld you have two S-Bahn lines and some RegioExpress trains; since they cost the same, I suggest using RE trains because they're a lot faster.


Can one use the same ABC tickets on the RE as one would use on the S-Bahn?


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## Suburbanist

whatsuplucas said:


> Can one use the same ABC tickets on the RE as one would use on the S-Bahn?


Yes, as long as travel is limited to those zones. 

These tickets cannot be used for EC, IC or ICE services though, even if they stop twice within the fare zone.


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## whatsuplucas

Suburbanist said:


> Yes, as long as travel is limited to those zones.
> 
> These tickets cannot be used for EC, IC or ICE services though, even if they stop twice within the fare zone.


Oh, that's interesting. I was afraid I wouldn't be able to ride the RE because of the tickets, but that's nice. Thanks!

I wish I could ride the ICE again this summer, but tickets are so expensive.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Expensive? ICE tickets cost as little as € 29 if you buy them in advance...


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## whatsuplucas

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Expensive? ICE tickets cost as little as € 29 if you buy them in advance...


Expensive because I'm a mere student and I haven't bought them early enough.  €80-100 is a shitload of money to me, unfortunately.


----------



## tunnel owl

Wilhem275 said:


> All bridges and main works are ready for this operation. Only problem I imagine is that it would not be possible to install a new lift straight to U7, because it's almost impossible to create a hole in this structure without a complex operation. All accesses to the second platform would be through the existing one.


Yes, access to that second platform would be through the existing ticket-hall only. There is no trouble with freight-tracks, it´s the flyover of Baumschulenweg-Bahn tracks, lying very near to Neukölln-station. So it´s not that easy to create a 3 or 4-track-station. But it´s likely that something could happen here one day in future. 



Wilhem275 said:


> I'll go on with S21, this topic always tickles me...
> I wouldn't even terminate it at Westhafen: ok, there's U9, but still it's in the middle of nothing. I'd try to reach Jungfernheide, but since there is no space for a terminus... let's make it Westend (they have many ready sidings there). Well, let's make it S46 K-Wusterhausen - Hbf
> Perleberger Brücke station will easily have indipendent tracks, so it would not be a problem to have Hbf with just one platform.


That´s exactly what they plan with S46. Meanwhile the idea of creating a Ringbahn-service into Hbf is scrapped (luckily). Probably the northern part will be served with a line from Waidmannslust or Buch. Yes you´re right, Perleberger Brücke-station would be ideal as long as it will be build. Actually there is only space foreseen for this station as they think, that the build-up area there does not justify a station. I hope this will change with the comlex Europa-city housing and commercial project there.




Wilhem275 said:


> Then, was there a final decision about building or not a Reichstag S-Bahnhof in Friedrich-Ebert-Platz? I think it would be a wise choice: 1 km both from Hbf and Potsdamer Platz, and a very good access from all the Reichstagufer/Brandenburger Tor area.
> Without that stop the "S21" stretch is at risk of being ignored as a way for getting in Mitte, with 2 km without stops (same service REs provide).


This station will not be build because there will be tracks with very steep gradient from the mentioned "Heuboden" just below ground to the underpass of Spree-river. Already without this station it´s difficult to reach the necessary depth to cross the river. A station at the Reichstag is not allowed to have high gradient at platform-level and so the tunnels would become eben more problematic. Basically you´re right, that S21 just has the same amount of stations between Potsdamer Pl. and Hbf. like RE has, but S21 has the very important connection to Yorckstraße U7 which RE has not. This creates the possibility to reach Hbf only via S- and U-Bahn for many people in Neukölln/Kreuzberg and Schöneberg.



Wilhem275 said:


> I would not be too pessimistic about the southern part of S21. Once they reach the "Heuboden" under Ebertstr., most of the work is done: tunnels from that siding down to Mendelssohn-Bartholdy-Park are basically already built, and everything south of Landwehrkanal will be overground in almost empty areas.
> Doesn't come for free, as some new viaducts are needed, but having no more tunnels to dig is a good vantage point:banana:
> Mfg


There are around 40 m of tunnel build in the 1930s and another part of 30 m under the new housing-complex at Stresemannstraße build for S21 in the 90s. I´ve been in that tunnels but didn´t took pictures unfortunately. The housing-complex near U2-tracks is build in a way, that it can be tunneled, further south the ramp of S21 is part of the Scandic-hotel. They planned to put a Gym in there but as I know it´s still empty and used for an emergency exit of U2-ramp.

The place further south is not empty anymore. They created the new Gleisdreieck-park in 2012/13. S21 will have to cross over the ramp of the DBAG-tunnel and under U2 viaduct:nuts:. If you take a look at this point in the park it will look like a rollercoaster. I´m afraid that urban planners did not really had the S21-project in mind:bash:

At least I think it will be very difficult to have S21 tracks merging into Wannsee *and* Lichtenrade-tracks. If at all they create S21 to Wannsee-S-Bahntracks I suppose. Meanwhile it´s clear that S1 will use the new tunnel when it reaches Potsdame Platz.

Kind regards


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## flierfy

tunnel owl said:


> This station will not be build because there will be tracks with very steep gradient from the mentioned "Heuboden" just below ground to the underpass of Spree-river. Already without this station it´s difficult to reach the necessary depth to cross the river. A station at the Reichstag is not allowed to have high gradient at platform-level and so the tunnels would become eben more problematic. Basically you´re right, that *S21 just has the same amount of stations between Potsdamer Pl. and Hbf. like RE has, but S21 has the very important connection to Yorckstraße U7 which RE has not.* This creates the possibility to reach Hbf only via S- and U-Bahn for many people in Neukölln/Kreuzberg and Schöneberg.


... and Gleisdreieck, which will be even more important.


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## whatsuplucas

Does anyone know which lines have which trains? Or do U1, U2, U3 and U4 have all sorts of Kleinprofilzüge and U5, U6, U7, U8 and U9 also have all sorts of Großprofilzüge?

I hope I've made myself clear. hahaha :lol:


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## AlexNL

Metrolines U1 to U4 are built to "Kleinprofil" and only Kleinprofil-Zuge run on them. On the other tracks, Großprofil-Zuge are used. Wikipedia has an extensive list of what rolling stock is used where on the network.


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## whatsuplucas

AlexNL said:


> Metrolines U1 to U4 are built to "Kleinprofil" and only Kleinprofil-Zuge run on them. On the other tracks, Großprofil-Zuge are used. Wikipedia has an extensive list of what rolling stock is used where on the network.


I haven't made myself clear. 

I was trying to ask if one line has only one model assigned to it or if all lines run all models at the same time.


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## flierfy

whatsuplucas said:


> I haven't made myself clear.
> 
> I was trying to ask if one line has only one model assigned to it or if all lines run all models at the same time.


As already mentioned Berlins metro are divided into two sub-networks by loading gauge. This division forms the only persistent barrier for the vehicle fleet.
Each of the two sub-networks has its own pool of vehicles. Vehicles are in service on a certain line for years in some cases or just a single days in others. But this is no real assignation as vehicles are used rather flexible within its own sub-network. Hence there is no assignation of one series of vehicles to one service line as well.


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## nr23Derek

So what are the two gauges and which lines have which? Is this a remnant of the division days or just an historical fact?

Derek


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## Wilhem275

Eh eh, I guessed that 


Maybe I am wrong about Friedrich being the most important interchange (considering U- and not only S-Bahn): Zoo and Alex could beat that.


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## dimlys1994

So, Unter den Linden U6 station will reopen on the 17th November?


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## Suburbanist

Are there any preliminary plans on extending U5 to Moabit?


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## tunnel owl

dimlys1994 said:


> So, Unter den Linden U6 station will reopen on the 17th November?


No, Unter den Linden is s completely new station instead of Französische Straße. No station was without service, only between Friedrichstraße and Französische Straße service was interrupted. At 17.11.13 U6 will run through as it did before. Unter den Linden U6-station will open in 2019 when U5-station will do so, too. Until then trains will pass through, later Französische Straße will be closed. Distance between Unter den Linden and Friedrichstraße is short, slightly more than 400 m. but it´s not the shortest distance, this is Mohrenstraße - Stadtmitte and Deutsche Oper-Bismarckstraße (380 m) on U2.

BTW. Warsaws metro-line one is interrupted for the same reason (building another line 2). Yet the old soviet-trains are running on the southern part of Warsaw metro-line 1 because they need more manual maintainance. Well it´s more manual maintainance but comparable easy work if you look at problems newer trains have with electronic devices etc.. 

Kind regards


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## tunnel owl

Suburbanist said:


> Are there any preliminary plans on extending U5 to Moabit?


Unfortunately not. Original intention was to extend U5 to Turmstraße (U9), there are drafts in scale 1:1000 for the next stations Fritz-Schloß-Park and Turmstraße including the tunnels. Turmstraße upper level station-shell is foreseen for this since 1961(!). The so called "standardisierte Bewertung" (standard cost-benefit-analysis) found out that U5-extension would be economic useful if it ends at Turmstraße. My personal hope is that we maybe have the same effect as with Hamburgs U4. If U5 is in operation the usefulness of U5 to Turmstraße is more obvious.

U5 station-shell at Turmstraße (N. Heintze), please not the vouted ceiling like it can be found on some stations of U9 and U6 built in the same period (1953-61):


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## APOQUINDO

Why this extension is taking such a long time, only in 2019 stations will be open??


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## tunnel owl

APOQUINDO said:


> Why this extension is taking such a long time, only in 2019 stations will be open??


It´s because of the soil and the historic buildings. Except Rathaus which will be built in an open cut the other stations will be built as followed:

Construction of the entrances and station-shells just as milan-walls with injected concrete-slaps. The shells will not be dug out until the TBM is going through to Brandenburg gate in two seperate tunnels, planned in 2014. This is because the groundwater-pressure is such high that it is like opening a bottel if you launch the TBM in an open shaft. They have some bad experiences with that doing the nroth-south-tunnel.

Old buildings are founded on wooden pillars, so the groundwater-table must stay the same. Another task is to rebuild the siding-track sectionof U5 Alexanderplatz. But basically you´re right. It´s a very long time, but at least there is a chance to be in time. Regarding S-Bahn and airport berliners tend to say now: We can nothing but U-Bahn.

Kind regards


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## tunnel owl

tunnel owl said:


> Unter den Linden is a completely new station instead of Französische Straße.


Let´s have some pics, made short before the opening. You can see a train turning at Französische Straße und flood-protection-system, if there is something worng with the construction-site of U5 (tunnel of U6 should not be affected.


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## dimlys1994

Today:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/first-long-flexity-berlin-tram-delivered.html
> 
> *First long Flexity Berlin tram delivered*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 14 Dec 2013
> 
> GERMANY: Bombardier Transportation delivered the first 40 m long bidirectional Flexity Berlin tram to the German capital from its Hennigsdorf plant on December 13.
> 
> According to Bombardier, the trams have been styled specifically for Berlin and feature a ‘Bauhaus design’. The air-conditioned vehicles are equipped with regenerative braking.
> 
> Berlin transport authority BVG signed a framework agreement with Bombardier in 2006 for up to 206 trams and has so far ordered 142. This includes 40 long unidirectional vehicles, 54 short bidirectional vehicles and 48 long bidirectional vehicles. Deliveries are due to run until 2017.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Do they have plans to extend tramways into Moabit?


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## lechevallierpatrick

I think that there are plans to extend the tram line from Hauptbahnhof to U-Bahnhof Turmstrasse via Alt-Moabit.....


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## Ludi

*U5 construction Unter den Linden near new station "Museumsinsel"*














































my own pics, ©Ludi

More about new U5-Line here in the german SSC-Thread.


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## Stadtlichtpunkte

*S-Bahnhof Hackescher Markt*

The S-Bahn station Hackescher Markt at blue houre in winter in the Spandauer Vorstadt of Berlin Mitte from 1882.​

S-Bahnhof Hackescher Markt Berlin-Mitte 
von Stadtlichtpunkte auf Flickr​
On the railway platform

S-Bahnsteig Hackescher Markt in Berlin-Mitte
von Stadtlichtpunkte auf Flickr​


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## Stadtlichtpunkte

Subway station Eberswalder Straße with a old train on the Viadukt in Prenzlauer Berg, line U2 

U-Bahnhof Eberswalder Straße, Viadukt Linie U2
von Stadtlichtpunkte auf Flickr
Subway station Eberswalder Straße, Entrance in Prenzlauer Berg, line U2
Hochbahnhof Eberswalder Straße Eingang bei Nacht​von Stadtlichtpunkte auf Flickr​


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## AlexNL

In June 2012 BVG, the public transport operator in the city of Berlin, placed an order with Stadler Pankow for the delivery of two prototype subway trains which will be delivered from 2015. If BVG likes the IK, they have an option for 34 further trains which will enter service from 2017. The trains are dubbed "Baureihe IK" and are intended to replace the aging Baureihe A3L71 trains, which are used on the Kleinprofilnetz (U1, U2, U3 and U4). 

Some pictures:




























More information can be found on the BVG website, on Wikipedia and on Stadler's website.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Nice train, though it is missing the Brandenburg Tör stickers


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## redstarcastles

Some Berlin buses I photographed over the years:


1543 Berlin Zoo 7 March 2006


8081 Zoo 20 June 2008


3060 Columbia-damm 21 June 2008


3543 Alexanderplatz 17 September 2012

more here:
http://smu.gs/1f704b3


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## Wuppeltje

There is a discussion in Amsterdam about the new wayfinding signs. The U-Bahn of Berlin was considered as an example for the multilingual signs use by someone. 










I haven't found anything multilingual of the U-Bahn. Is there actually anything multilingual, or is it only the S-Bahn and the Deutsche Bahn? 

Thanks in advance!


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## Svartmetall

^^ Perhaps they are referring to the standardised symbols for various modes of transportation used in the U-bahn. It is very clearly laid out as to where the exists are, where one can go for buses, for S-bahn connections et al in a pictorial manner. Other places do this (Stockholm for one), but perhaps not in such a clear way with set colours for each different mode of transportation.


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## tunnel owl

Svartmetall said:


> It is very clearly laid out as to where the exists are, where one can go for buses, for S-bahn connections et al in a pictorial manner.


Yes, it´s not misleading but multilingual only in that way, that recently the word "exit" was added to the german "Ausgang". In my personal view I would prefer the international green exit pictogram (Ok, I know the USA sometimes uses red signs for exit). Many people do not know english and therefore this pictogram would be clearer.

This information system invented by Meta-design exists since 1993.Maybe it´s the overall appearance in the whole network making it that clear. Before this, there existed several signs from different decades.

Kind regards
Alex


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## flierfy

Wuppeltje said:


> There is a discussion in Amsterdam about the new wayfinding signs. The U-Bahn of Berlin was considered as an example for the multilingual signs use by someone.


Amsterdam needs multilingual signs as little as Berlin does. Sign your metros and trams in Dutch and make announcements in clear Dutch only and the whole world will find its way. Don't start to struggle with languages most Dutch know just to a certain extent if at all. Stick with your own language I advise you.


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## Northridge

flierfy said:


> make announcements in clear Dutch only and the whole world will find its way. Don't start to struggle with languages most Dutch know just to a certain extent if at all. Stick with your own language I advise you.


When I was in China, I had some problems hearing what was said in Chinese. I did find my way though, but I can see this can become a problem for tourist that doesn't pay attention or are otherwise not able to recognize it.
If that calls for multilingual announcements I don't know. 
I would probably opt for multilingual announcements at important stations only.


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## Wilhem275

In Berlin you get English audio announcements only at main interchange points, at least on S-Bahn ("Passengers travelling to Schoenefeld Airport, please change here"). I don't remember about the same on U-Bahn.

On written signs, I'd translate at least the word for "exit", although most of the signs won't just say "exit" but instead specify the road you'll actually exit on (which can't be translated). The name of the road may not be immedately clear to one who doesn't have a clue about the language.
So, as Tunnel Owl said, it would be better to use the common exit sign beside the road name: not only you can't get wrong, but you also recognize immediately as road names which words accompany the concept of exit. All this, without the sign being clogged with bilingual or useless information.


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## vandiss

Wilhem275 said:


> In Berlin you get English audio announcements only at main interchange points, at least on S-Bahn ("Passengers travelling to Schoenefeld Airport, please change here"). I don't remember about the same on U-Bahn.


You get them on the U-Bahn, too. For instance, at Stadtmitte on U6 there's an announcement for the U2 line running to the Olympic Stadium and exhibition grounds.

Was quite amused when on one of the new(ish) ODEG trains someone tried to get into an occupied WC only for it to tell them in English "This facility is currently in use"!


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## zidar fr

I made a new schematic map of Berlin U-bahn / S-bahn network.

I tried to make it as symmetrical and harmonious as possible but still small enough to be printed on 20cmx20cm










You can see it in better resolution on 

*www.inat.fr/metro/berlin/*


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## Suburbanist

^^ Nice map


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## zidar fr

@Suburbanist

Thank you. The official map is very good but some curves are welcome.


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## Ludi

*U5 construction update*




























my own pics, ©Ludi

More about this project here in the german SSC-Thread for this project.


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## Wilhem275

I like A LOT this map because it introduces a fresh and clean style without reinventing the wheel. Knowing the city, I recognize the map is close to the real shape of the network (probably even closer than the official one!), and this is not an easy task while keeping a consistent and harmonious curved style.
Really a great work.

Try to insert also the trace of RE/RB trains (as a single thin red line, as today), because they have an importance in the city's urban mobility. Hbf is linked to many places just with Regio trains (Potsdamer Platz, Gesundbrunnen, Spandau...).

What I don't like is the color palette: the S-Bahn can be difficult to read (too light) and appears as a "secondary" network in the city, which is not.
Also, I would use the black or white dot for the stops based on the contrast with the line color, not divided in S- or U- (a stop is a stop, you don't need to show them differently).
And I would keep showing the zones based on the background and avoid the letters, so that you can clearly see the zone as an area with continuous borders.


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## zidar fr

@Wilhem275

Thanks a lot 

The color palette is the same for all my metro maps, metro lines are shown with plain colors while commuter lines are lighter. I agree that it may seem awkward in cities like Berlin or Paris where S-bahn and RER are used just like metro lines.

Same goes for the zone styling, Berlin has only 3 zones so a color overlay or a dotted boundary for zones may fit, but in cities like London or Madrid the map would be overcrowded.


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## Suburbanist

*S-Bahn network in 1980*

This is how the S-Bahn network looked like in 1980.

The communist dictators had a right to operate S-Bahn services within West Berlin, but patronage was low due to boycotts.

EDIT: image is too big, check it out here-


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## Wilhem275

I didn't know the line to Düppel was still active in 1980!


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## tunnel owl

Wilhem275 said:


> I didn't know the line to Düppel was still active in 1980!


Zehlendorf -Düppel, Jungfernheide - Spandau and Spandau - Staaken have been in service until 1980. S-Bahn used former Reichsbahn-tracks easily equiped with third rail on those lines. Very austere service, mostly single-tracked. Those lines went in service around 1953, the same time S-Bahn reached Falkensee and Strausberg. The only "real" S-Bahn-line of West-Berlin still not in service until today is the Siemensbahn Jungfernheide - Gartenfeld which stopped operation in 1980,too.

The Düppel-Zehlendorf shuttle got an additional station Zehlendorf-Süd in 1975. It was a little side-platform suitable for 4-cars-only. The only building of this station was a little shelter.

Kind regards


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## Suburbanist

Do they have plans to reactivate both services?


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## Wunderknabe

Well, witnessing these cool collection of subway maps by zidar_fr (my respect!) I want to add my version of Berlins Grid
too. I made this in autumn last year:









BIGGER

My same intention was, of course, to make the plan as simple as possible and as easy readable as possible.
I think simplicity kann easily measured by the numbers of bends lines have in a plan.

The official plan has got a total of 86 bends. zidar_fr has still 70 and is not much of an improvement
in that regard. My version has just 43.

I started with the subway grid. When only showing these 9 U-Bahn lines the plan can be made stunningly simple:









The official plan has 37 bends for the subway lines. Mine has only 7 left. 5 lines out of 9 can be drawn
with no bend at all. When adding S-Bahn-lines I had to add some bends to the U-Bahn again, but in the end its
still much more simple than before (15 bends).

Also I think it is usefull to make U/S-Bahn easy distinguishable. In Berlin you can easily interchange between
U- and S-Bahn and you don't have to buy another ticket. However, its still 2 different means of transport.
Also the official colors of some lines are very near to others, like the dark blue of U8 and S3.

When looking at the official map its not easy to tell instanty if a dark blue line is the U8 or the S3.
You have to follow one of the lines to their end to tell.
zidar_fr noticed this too and made S-Bahn lines a bit lighter. 
But I think this indicates a difference in quality, as if the U-Bahn would be more important and therefore
has darker and more saturated colors.

Thats why I choose slightly dotted lines for subway lines. That way each line can keep its original color.
This also correspondents with the common way of showing hidden (literaly: subway) lines in a architectural or technical plan.

Also I changed the way stations are shown. A normal station with no interchange keeps the color of its line,
like in the official plan. Stations were you can change though get white symbols that are bigger when there
is more lines meeting in that station. That way the more important stations like Zoologischer Garten or
Alexanderplatz are more obvious compared to lesser important ones like Stadtmitte or Spichernstraße.

One more thing I noticed in your (@zidar_fr) way of showing the area around Yorckstraße. It is indeed
quite tempting to just melt all Stations with "Yorckstraße" in its name to one station. That produces a
very elegant map. However, I made that mistake too in a former version of my plan, but had to change it,
because the 3 Stations (Yorckstraße U7, Yorckstraße Ss/S25 and Yorckstraße/Großgörschenstraße S1) are really
3 different stations and are separated by several hundred meters. Also the Großgörschenstraße should not
dissapear.


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## tunnel owl

Suburbanist said:


> Do they have plans to reactivate both services?


Gartenfeld S-Bahn is gone forever. There was an idea to reinvent the service and extend the line towards the so called "Wasserstadt Oberhavel", a new real-estate development. But they didn´t kept any space free for this line over ground and thought about to surpass under Havel-river. This is completely unreal. Meanwhile DBAG sold some areas and near the Siemens-factory the try to demolish the old viaducts, having more space for buildings.

Düppel-Zehlendorf should have been part of the so called Stammbahn, rebuilding of some of Germanys oldest railway-alignments (1838) between Potsdam and Berlin. But there are no plans at all and to be honest, there is no real need in having an additional rail-link between Potsdam and Berlin.

Kind regards


----------



## Wilhem275

The Siemensbahn area is nice, there are some interesting viaducts.


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## tunnel owl

Wilhem275 said:


> The Siemensbahn area is nice, there are some interesting viaducts.


Yes, I like them, too. They look very modern compared to the older elevated parts of U1 and U2. Also stations Wernerwerk and Siemensstadt are very spacious. The trouble with that line was, that it has been fitted overground within an already built up area in the 20s. The main axis of Siemensstadt is Nonnendammallee, where U7 is. The U-Bahn project is even older than the S-Bahn is. After 1961 Siemens mainly left Berlin and it was a real workers rail without significant amount of passengers at other times. Looks like every bigger town has it´s abandoned urban rail alignments like Londons Alexandra palace branch e. g.


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## marmercuri

So much information and nice photos in this thread! 
I visited Berlin last January for the first time and it was simply amazing! I've always read about the History of Berlin and the years it was divided, so I finally got to check it out for my self and wasn't disappointed.I got there and went all the way from Schonefeld to Anhalter Banhof (Which became my favorite station because of the solitude and silence inside it). For 3 days I rode the lines around the city, seeing those interesting stations and sights. Bornholmer Strasse really got to me, just to think that the wall was right there, ahead of the tracks... I once read a non-fiction book called Stasiland, written by Anna Funder where one of the main characters flees the DDR by jumping off a train in Bornholmerstr.
Another night we went to Warschauer Str. to check out on the clubs and I got to see the style of that area: a lot of grafitti on those old looking and socialist houses. I loved it!
Next time I go to Berlin I'm going to hire a guide so he can show me around better and tell me more about Berlin during the Wall Era
Also, one day I want to have a transportation network as dense as Berlin down here in my city, this would make things so much easier.


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## zidar fr

@Wunderknabe

Nice work of simplification of the lines, maybe too much, reminds me of Harry Beck's intent for the Paris map simplifying the lines to the absolute minimum.

It isn't easy to deal with Berlin since the official BVG map is one of the best in the world, I guess there has to be a compromise between simplification and geography in order to make a map readable AND memorizable.
Some simplification is necessary to get easy to memorize shapes but some geography is necessary too to organize the relation of one line to the other and for people to recognize the shape of the city and orientate.


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## tunnel owl

Suburbanist said:


> Other than third-rail, what is the uniqueness of Berlin Stadbahn fleet requirements?


 DC, smaller loading gauge (Tunnel), no ordinary floor height in DB system. They simply estimated the time too short to develop new trains. Any new operator can only usw them in Berlin which makes the thing a risky business.


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## AlexNL

tunnel owl said:


> DC, smaller loading gauge (Tunnel), no ordinary floor height in DB system. They simply estimated the time too short to develop new trains. Any new operator can only usw them in Berlin which makes the thing a risky business.


If I'm not mistaken, the Berlin Senate wants to fund the new trains themselves to prevent an operator from keeping the fleet hostage (being unwilling to lease/sell to a new operator) as DB is doing with its current fleet.


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## flierfy

tunnel owl said:


> DC, smaller loading gauge (Tunnel), <b>no ordinary floor height</b> in DB system. They simply estimated the time too short to develop new trains. Any new operator can only usw them in Berlin which makes the thing a risky business.


It uses the standard S-Bahn height. It is therefore very well standard compliant. And then again S-Bahn train-sets are supposed to run in Berlin and not somewhere else. This city needs its S-Bahn. That makes the purchase of a new S-Bahn fleet is a pretty secure business for a TOC as well as a bank.


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## AlexNL

Yes, but the city doesn't want a TOC purchasing the rolling stock. This is because the city fears that the TOC will keep the rolling stock hostage when the concession is to be re-let.

With the initial tender plans, DB made it clear that they were unwilling to provide the rolling stock to a future operator. Even now that DB has been directly awarded an extension to the contract, DB (formally S-Bahn Berlin) has said that they do not want to pay for the refurbishment that the BR480 and BR485 series need.


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## Wilhem275

That's the mess we did when we separated infrastructure from services... letting the national operators keep the property of the public rolling stock.


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## tunnel owl

flierfy said:


> It uses the standard S-Bahn height. It is therefore very well standard compliant.


Yes, you´re right. The old floor height was 1,03 m as an exception of the rule, made by DR. The new 481 already have common 0,96 m standard. 

Building DC cars for DBAG is nearly unic. In the past Berlin S-Bahntrains run in Gdansk and on the Isartalbahn with AC. But no one would built trains for both systems for an unclear future in other networks.

The idea to have trains owned by the Senat and rented to the operator failed due to lack of money for buying them. this is no surprise as the Senat reacted helpless and stupid during the S-Bahn crisis as they saw, they signed a contract with DBAG with no alternative.

Whereas trains had been a main issue of the S-Bahn crisis one should not forget that many interruptions and system blackouts are caused by the signalling-system and other belongings of the infrastructure which will be still operated by DBAG. So a new train operator would not automatically improve the reliability.

Meanwhile the S-Bahn is much better than some years before as they fixed problems with 481 (hopefully). The 480 and 485 trainsets have been delivered between 1987 amd 1992. Getting them out of service in 2025 let them have a normal running time. Berlins U-Bahn has the majority of it´s fleet beeing older than that trains.


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## Suburbanist

What about converting Berlin S-Bahn to cantenary and 16,7kV/15Hz? Is that possible/feasible? Do that North-South tunnel have clearance for rigid cantenary?


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## tunnel owl

Suburbanist said:


> What about converting Berlin S-Bahn to cantenary and 16,7kV/15Hz? Is that possible/feasible? Do that North-South tunnel have clearance for rigid cantenary?


No, North-South tunnel has no clearance for this. Other parts would, but not completely (bridges, platform-roofes). It was never seen as an option, because it would be a giant operation which would not pay out. Only thing was to upgrade the network on 1.500 DC Voltage for other reasons, never came to reality as even this was seen as not beneficial.

Interesting btw the Hamburg S-Bahn was changed from catenary to third rail as they planned to have tunnels with lower loading gauge as Berlin (to cut it short).


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## AlexNL

Wilhem275 said:


> That's the mess we did when we separated infrastructure from services... letting the national operators keep the property of the public rolling stock.


Private operators might do the same thing if given the opportunity to do so, I think. However, as the Berlin S-Bahn is unique from a technical point of view, not making the vehicles available to another operator would mean that the previous operator would remain with a large fleet of unusable vehicles. Private companies usually don't appreciate huge writedowns on assets if they can lease or sell them.

Here in the Netherlands, most concessions (even the NS operated mainline network) have a clause that the operator has to make the rolling stock available to a successor at the end of the concessionary period. The city of Berlin could do the same with the concession, this puts the financial burden with the private party that takes over from DB.

-=-

Now on to a wholly different subject: fare dodging. In Amsterdam, about 1.9% of passengers is a fare dodgers. Are there any known figures about fare dodging in Berlin, or is this well under control by BVG and DB?


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## Wilhem275

AlexNL said:


> Here in the Netherlands, most concessions (even the NS operated mainline network) have a clause that the operator has to make the rolling stock available to a successor at the end of the concessionary period.


This is a good way to handle it.

Another idea is to have a public RoSCo which has to lease the stock to operators (even for free), while obliging them to manage the maintenance and maybe even the replacement.

The final results would be similar. What I don't like is the concept applied to DB and FS, which were given public goods which are now treated as a private property and used to undermine competitors.


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## AlexNL

Amen to that. In the UK, operators own almost no rolling stock as the market changes frequently and the lifespan of a train is much longer than that of an average franchise. There are some ROSCOs which own nearly all stock.


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## metr0p0litain

One of Berlin's most impressive underground stations is Heidelberger Platz on the U3:


Heidelberger Platz, U-Bahn Line 3, Berlin by stephenk1977 on Flickr


Heidelberger Platz by neufi on Flickr


Berlin - Heidelberger Platz by Siebbi on Flickr


U-Bahn Heidelberger Platz by jo.schz on Flickr


Eule by SebastianBerlin on Flickr


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## tunnel owl

AlexNL said:


> Here in the Netherlands, most concessions (even the NS operated mainline network) have a clause that the operator has to make the rolling stock available to a successor at the end of the concessionary period. The city of Berlin could do the same with the concession, this puts the financial burden with the private party that takes over from DB.


They could in an new contract. Berlin S-Bahn is basically a metro system, not to compare with other S-Bahn-systems in Germany. DBAG often fails to see this, e. g. they closed the special maintainance department for third rail and integrated it in the department of rigid catenary. This is what happens, if lawyers and salesmen rule the company, but almost no engineers. S-Bahn could work privately like Stockholms tunelbane and having a contract, saying trains belong to a possible successor. 



AlexNL said:


> Now on to a wholly different subject: fare dodging. In Amsterdam, about 1.9% of passengers is a fare dodgers. Are there any known figures about fare dodging in Berlin, or is this well under control by BVG and DB?


1,9% even in trams with free access? I think Amsterdam metro is a closed system meanwhile, so 1,9% is a good value. There is a common sense in Germany, that open systems (and all U-Bahnen and Stadtbahnen are so) should calculate with a percentage of 3 to max. 5% fare dodgers. BVG has regular controls. The amount of controls depends on the part of fare dodgers compared to all controlled people. If it is high, controls get more and vice versa. At the moment fare dodging is no big problem in Berlin. Of cause it depends on the daytime and the location of control.


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## AlexNL

tunnel owl said:


> They could in an new contract. Berlin S-Bahn is basically a metro system, not to compare with other S-Bahn-systems in Germany. DBAG often fails to see this, e. g. they closed the special maintainance department for third rail and integrated it in the department of rigid catenary. This is what happens, if lawyers and salesmen rule the company, but almost no engineers. S-Bahn could work privately like Stockholms tunelbane and having a contract, saying trains belong to a possible successor.


Agreed! A unique fleet such as S-Bahn Berlin's should be treated as such. DBAG has made a real mess out of SBB in the past years, a true shame.




> 1,9% even in trams with free access? I think Amsterdam metro is a closed system meanwhile, so 1,9% is a good value.


Amsterdam's subway system is closed off with gates, which has been a tremendous help in reducing the number of fare dodgers. The tram system is somewhat unique: a large part of the fleet (the Combino vehicles) has a booth for a 'conducteur' (a tram manager, so to speak). You're supposed to enter the vehicle only through the doors near the driver or the conductor, other doors are exit only. 



> There is a common sense in Germany, that open systems (and all U-Bahnen and Stadtbahnen are so) should calculate with a percentage of 3 to max. 5% fare dodgers. BVG has regular controls. The amount of controls depends on the part of fare dodgers compared to all controlled people. If it is high, controls get more and vice versa. At the moment fare dodging is no big problem in Berlin. Of cause it depends on the daytime and the location of control.


In Amsterdam (GVB) and Rotterdam (RET) the amount of fare dodgers has decreased significantly after the subway stations were closed off with gates. Both RET and GVB saw the amount of fare dodgers drop from over 10% to under 2%. The CEO of RET said that they were raking in an additional € 60.000 euro's each day solely from people who are no longer dodging fares.

3% to 5% is an acceptable score for an open system, definitely! Appearantly the BVG/SBB way to fight fare dodging is effective enough, I would have expected higher numbers.

My guess is that most fare dodging happens on the ring line and the lines inbetween such as S5 between Ostkreuz and Westkreuz, as the trains run highly frequent and stop quite often?


----------



## flierfy

tunnel owl said:


> 1,9% even in trams with free access? I think Amsterdam metro is a closed system meanwhile, so 1,9% is a good value.


The trams in Amsterdam have controlled access. There are ticket gates installed at each door.


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## tunnel owl

AlexNL said:


> My guess is that most fare dodging happens on the ring line and the lines inbetween such as S5 between Ostkreuz and Westkreuz, as the trains run highly frequent and stop quite often?


I don´t know for S-Bahn, this could be true. Regarding BVG, fare-dodging is common in Kreuzberg, Neukölln where at weekends a lot of parties are going on. During rush-hours the number of fare-dodgers is not very high, because commuters pay. Also daytime tourists do well.

Access in busses is controled by the driver. Of cause during rush-hours this is not easy. Tramway has no controled access like Amsterdam, so they have to control like U-Bahn.

Kind regards


----------



## vandiss

walky88 said:


> By the way, the S-Bahn has never been a 'Stadtbahn'. It was originally the 'Stadtschnellbahn' (urban rapid rail), but obviously SS has other connotations in Germany. In Germany 'Stadtbahn' is mainly used to describe light rail systems that combine underground metro sections with trams.


In Berlin, and to the confusion of many, the Stadtbahn specifically refers to the elevated stretch of track between Charlottenburg in the west and Ostbahnhof in the east. 

It carries not only S-Bahn but also normal rail services (Regionalbahn, ICE etc.).


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## whatsuplucas

AlexNL said:


> My guess is that most fare dodging happens on the ring line and the lines inbetween such as S5 between Ostkreuz and Westkreuz, as the trains run highly frequent and stop quite often?


Yep! The ring line is probably where the fare dodgers live more freely. There are just too many people, too many platforms and too many trains to take care of, so it's not as easy checking tickets as it is at Rosenthaler Platz, for example.


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## Kolothos

I found fare dodging in Berlin to be scarily easy. I thought there would be conductors on the S-Bahn, and I thought there would be ticket gates on the U-Bahn, but I was very wrong. Hamburg was exactly the same. In Berlin I was mainly using the Stadtbahn line from Ostkreuz.

I'm too used to here in Glasgow where every equivalent U-Bahn/S-Bahn station in the city has ticket gates, and while the further out stations don't, we still have ticket conductors very visible in the trains.


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## Suburbanist

The only thing that mitigates fare dodging in Berlin a bit is that monthly subscriptions are very cheap compared to the price of single rides or day passes to cover the same trips, so people who use transit often and are not inclined to fare dodge all the time probably buy these subscriptions and are therefore covered in situations where they might be tempted (like a short s-Bahn ride late at night on Saturday).


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## doc7austin

A professional fare-dodger can easily spot control teams. The control teams are usually staffed by WISAG. They check the tickets randomly in civil clothes. However, the way they behave, one can spot them when they entering the train.


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## whatsuplucas

Suburbanist said:


> The only thing that mitigates fare dodging in Berlin a bit is that monthly subscriptions are very cheap compared to the price of single rides or day passes to cover the same trips, so people who use transit often and are not inclined to fare dodge all the time probably buy these subscriptions and are therefore covered in situations where they might be tempted (like a short s-Bahn ride late at night on Saturday).


Yes!



doc7austin said:


> A professional fare-dodger can easily spot control teams. The control teams are usually staffed by WISAG. They check the tickets randomly in civil clothes. However, the way they behave, one can spot them when they entering the train.


"Professional fare-dodging" is an interesting concept. :lol:


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## muc

Is there any city at all in Germany where a closed system with gates is used for public transport? Never seen one.


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## whatsuplucas

muc said:


> Is there any city at all in Germany where a closed system with gates is used for public transport? Never seen one.


I don't think so. I haven't been to that many cities in Germany, but none of them have turnstiles/gates.


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## Scizoid.Trans.Prog.

New S-Bahn trains for Berlin S-Bahn will replace the old 480's? When it start?


----------



## AlexNL

Scizoid.Trans.Prog. said:


> New S-Bahn trains for Berlin S-Bahn will replace the old 480's? When it start?


2020-ish. Depends on the outcome of tenders for new rolling stock.


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## Mariosky111

S-Bahn will get trains sooner than 2020. And they will replace 485s rolling stock. 480s
will live a little longer.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Kolothos said:


> I found fare dodging in Berlin to be scarily easy. I thought there would be conductors on the S-Bahn, and I thought there would be ticket gates on the U-Bahn, but I was very wrong. Hamburg was exactly the same. In Berlin I was mainly using the Stadtbahn line from Ostkreuz.
> 
> I'm too used to here in Glasgow where every equivalent U-Bahn/S-Bahn station in the city has ticket gates, and while the further out stations don't, we still have ticket conductors very visible in the trains.


I once heard that there were ticket inspectors for a while but they gave up on them due to a lack of success in finding fare-dodgers.


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## thun

You have to be blind in order to not find fare dodgers in Berlin, I suppose.


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## city_thing

DanielFigFoz said:


> I once heard that there were ticket inspectors for a while but they gave up on them due to a lack of success in finding fare-dodgers.


When I was in Berlin years ago (about 2004) the undercover inspectors were everywhere. I was in Berlin in May this year and didn't see a single one.


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## Mariosky111

In fact there are a lot of fare-dodgers in Berlin. When inspectors come in, and imagine
that part of the train (U-, or S-Bahn) has around 30 passengers, most of the time they will find at least one or two.


----------



## Dooie_Amsterdammert

Suburbanist said:


> The only thing that mitigates fare dodging in Berlin a bit is that monthly subscriptions are very cheap compared to the price of single rides or day passes to cover the same trips, so people who use transit often and are not inclined to fare dodge all the time probably buy these subscriptions and are therefore covered in situations where they might be tempted (like a short s-Bahn ride late at night on Saturday).


Oke, totally forgot U-Bahn in Berlin has no gates..

How much is A monthly subscribtion on the complete U-Bahn/Berlin public transport?
If I look it up, chances are, I will gather wrong information.


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## Suburbanist

Dooie_Amsterdammert said:


> How much is A monthly subscribtion on the complete U-Bahn/Berlin public transport?
> If I look it up, chances are, I will gather wrong information.


€ 78 for zones AB, € 97 for zones ABC (€ 722/€ 943 for annual passes, respectively).


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## Mariosky111

Around December, Berlin will get a new double decker bus. It´s a prototype from Scania.
It will run for a year, or so. If it is successful, BVG will order a bunch of them...


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## 00Zy99

Any news on the Waltersdorf and Rudersdorf trams?

Are they doing well?

What about Potsdam? I think that I read somewhere that that tram used to be connected to Berlin's. Are they getting any closer to each other again?


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## Svartmetall

^^ Why would they need to get closer? There is a good S-bahn connection between Potsdam and Berlin, and there are no trams in the south western portion of Berlin to my knowledge.


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## tunnel owl

00Zy99 said:


> What about Potsdam? I think that I read somewhere that that tram used to be connected to Berlin's. Are they getting any closer to each other again?


 Potsdam and Berlin tram were never connected. There had been several attempts to extend Potsdams tram via Glienicker Brücke to Wannsee, but this was 90 years back or so. In fact there is no need to do so. They talked about extending the tram towards Teltow S-Bahnstation but it´s not a real project, just an idea.

Kind regards


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## Wilhem275

Actually I don't see the point in connecting the networks... the distance is too high to use a tram, it would be even if there was an extensive network in west Berlin; and anyway there's already the S-Bahn, and Regio trains as well.

If ever some works are needed, then maybe doubling the S-Bahn track in order to have both S1 and S7 reach the city or even go past Hbf. But I'm not even sure about that...


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## whatsuplucas

I think it'd be quite stupid to connect Berlin and Potsdam using trams because:

1) They're too far apart;
2) Trams are far slower than the S-Bahn;
3) The S-Bahn is very dependable and works really well.


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## nanar

00Zy99 said:


> What about Potsdam? I think that I read somewhere that that tram used to be connected to Berlin's. Are they getting any closer to each other again?


It could be interesting link.
There is 6,5 km between Glienicker Brücke (the "spy bridge") tram station in Postdam an S-Bahn Wannsee station in Berlin
.


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## Svartmetall

Suburbanist said:


> Berlin is full of elevated train structures already (U-Bahn and S-Bahn). It is not like I'm proposing a novelty.
> 
> I also didn't suggest a monorail between Postdamer platz and Alexander platz...


I'm aware of that. But you're proposing adding a new mode to a city that already has a comprehensive and well-functioning transport system. Why overcomplicate things when there are trams that can fulfil a medium capacity role in the city perfectly well? 

You ever been to Chiba in eastern Tokyo? Or Tama in Western Tokyo? Or Osaka? Go see their monorails and tell me that you'd want one in the middle of Berlin. I've actually been on a number of monorail systems around the world and I don't see the attraction if other options are available. I'd rather see an underground metro for high capacity corridors or grade-separated light rail/trams for medium capacity. Buses can handle the rest.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Buses should be eradicated in the long term IMO. Especially longer buses running on bus lanes, which shouldn't exist and be reverted to cars.

The only monorail I've seen in operation was in Las Vegas.


----------



## Svartmetall

Why? Buses are a pretty effective distribution system for the "last mile" from a high quality transport corridor like a metro station. If you have never seen a monorail beyond that toy in Las Vegas, then it is hard to judge the impact that such infrastructure has on the cityscape. Plenty of videos of those monorails I named (and have been on) on YouTube. See for yourself.


----------



## Suburbanist

Svartmetall said:


> Why? Buses are a pretty effective distribution system for the "last mile" from a high quality transport corridor like a metro station. If you have never seen a monorail beyond that toy in Las Vegas, then it is hard to judge the impact that such infrastructure has on the cityscape. Plenty of videos of those monorails I named (and have been on) on YouTube. See for yourself.


I've watched several monorail videos. I think they are less intrusive than elevated trains. I don't see people saying the Stadbahn should be torn down and put in a tunnel, or the many elevated UBahn sectors in Berlin. Monorail is less intrusive than both. 

Buses are low-tech, they should be replaced by small trams, gondolas, self-driven pods and other solutions that do away with the need of drivers. But I concede it is a 30-year plan, not a 5-year plan.

In any case, as times passes I'm more and more becoming supportive of the idea of untangling different transportation modes from each model with geometrical separation as much as possible.

Pedestrians shouldn't mix with bikes. Heavy traffic (rail, monorail, car expressways) should be elevated or tunneled. Bike lanes should have dedicated infrastructure. If ground-level has cars, than a second-layer or elevated sidewalks should exist. Keep app modes apart and create a "3D" street environment where interactions between different models happen on a planned controlled matter, not conflicting with each other.


----------



## Alargule

Like in the Bijlmer area in Amsterdam, you mean? Hmm - unless a city area has been designed from the start to accommodate for (grade) separated traffic flows, I don't really see how elevated or tunneled structures would work out in existing city scapes, especially if they're densely built up. Elevated walkways may seem like a good idea, but that would entail - among other things - moving building entrances one level up as well. I don't see how that comes cheap.


----------



## Wilhem275

The Stadtbahn took the place of the old city walls... so in fact it was born with a route naturally designed to fit into the existing city.
And it, together with most of the elevated U-Bahnen, has a classic design that doesn't make it look like an eyesore.

Yes, you could clad a monorail structure with fake stones, but in the end you would have no space gain...


----------



## Kolothos

I think the Stadtbahn is a great asset to the city. I find it quite beautiful actually. Old style railway viaducts are very attractive, and provide opportunity for other uses too. Big concrete monorail viaducts don't have that same attraction.

No new viaducts should be build within city centres. The Scottish Government recently built part of the M74 through several inner city districts of Glasgow, and it's absolutely awful.


----------



## Suburbanist

Monorails don't have a deck, just pillars that can be neatly disguised. And they can be fit into the center of wide boulevards of Berlin like Küfurstendam.

Monorails are not that intrusive outside stations, and should be adopted in Berlin and many other European first-rate cities as a solution that is not as high-capacity as subways, but costing just 1/3...


----------



## whatsuplucas

Suburbanist said:


> Monorails don't have a deck, just pillars that can be neatly disguised.


Neatly disguised. In the middle of Berlin? I don't think so. Only if they ran on top of the buildings. :lol:

I really don't think Berlin needs any new heavy(-ish) links like a monorail. The system is already quite dense and trams/buses would solve the small problems that the city has. Like someone said earlier, buses and trams are necessary for that "last mile", because, unless in you are in Mitte, you won't have stations 500m apart from each other, so buses and trams fill that gap.

Also, those pillars look really beautiful when the streets are wide and open (Americas), but would look really dumb on narrow streets with tall buildings (Europe).


----------



## :jax:

Bus traffic is an excellent mode of public transport, due to their versatility. If for some strange reason we had to pick just one form of transport that would have to be buses, buses can to some extent take the role of all other transport vehicles, except boats and airplanes, but the opposite is not the case. Buses can be anything from public taxis to light rail on wheels. Fortunately we don't have to restrict ourselves to one mode of transport, and Berlin has most.

That versatility is one of the drawbacks with a bus network. Even in a fairly large city like Berlin it isn't so hard to memorise all U-bahn and S-bahn. There aren't too many of them, and they don't change, and the lines mostly follow shortest line between stations. There are many bus lines and many more bus stops, they do change, and the route is largely unknown. Too much information for a human brain to handle. Smarter traffic should solve those issues. 

Here in Beijing I am a fan of the express buses, connecting points on the map with high traffic that aren't connected and may never be connected by metro (they are technically connected, but with a considerable detour or multiple transfers), with a number of stops in the beginning, then a very long non-stop journey, usually along high-speed roads, with a number of stops at the end. Train or metro won't beat that convenience.


----------



## AlexNL

Rail's biggest advantage over buses is capacity. Railbound systems such as trams, S-Bahn and U-Bahn are limited to the available infrastructure. Building new or adapting existing infrastructure is both time-consuming and expensive, so it's best not to do that until it's a necessity.

On the other hand, buses can run on the infrastructure that is already in place, which makes for great flexibility at relatively low costs. You can easily change frequencies (just add or remove buses from routes), you can add new routes whenever you want (just put down some poles with an H on top) and you can completely change the network layout whenever you wish whenever that makes more sense.

For the extremities of a large network, buses are a great way to bring people to and from their homes, and they do a good job at complementing a rail based backbone. Buses pick up people close to their homes and bring them to a railway station (heavy rail, S-Bahn, whatever) and the rest of the railway network will help bring them to work.


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## Sunfuns

I agree buses are important part of every good transportation network both in urban and rural settings. Buses do a great job transporting people to places where overall traffic flow doesn't warrant light rail, let alone heavy rail. They also serve as temporary substitutes for rail based transport as it takes very little time and money to set up a new route. 

I'm not however a supporter of bus rapid transit idea which has become popular in some parts of the world. If there is that much traffic light rail or a proper subway is a far better solution.


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## Suburbanist

Berlin has several bus routes that depart from Southwest neighborhoods and instead of just dumping passenger at the nearest S-Bahn end up carrying them all the way to Zoologische Garten station, there is a queue of buses on Kurfuerstendamm when they shouldn't need to travel all the way, but just connect outer areas with nearest U/S-Bahn station. The number of buses in central areas is also very high, with no need for that since there are S-Bahn and U-Bahn everywhere. It is mostly about people who want a "one-seat ride" who end up using these services, or tourists for which navigating underground networks is always more challenging than hoping on a bus with visual cues.


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## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> or tourists for which navigating underground networks is always more challenging than hoping on a bus with visual cues.


I doubt that part is true. Whenever I'm in a new city and particularly if I don't speak the local language I try to avoid buses. Trams and underground is way easier to understand for a first time user.


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## Svartmetall

Suburbanist said:


> Berlin has several bus routes that depart from Southwest neighborhoods and instead of just dumping passenger at the nearest S-Bahn end up carrying them all the way to Zoologische Garten station, there is a queue of buses on Kurfuerstendamm when they shouldn't need to travel all the way, but just connect outer areas with nearest U/S-Bahn station. The number of buses in central areas is also very high, with no need for that since there are S-Bahn and U-Bahn everywhere. It is mostly about people who want a "one-seat ride" who end up using these services, or tourists for which navigating underground networks is always more challenging than hoping on a bus with visual cues.


The key thing with the buses in the centre is that they form a network. The U-bahn and S-bahn do not always have the most convenient connections to a network, and a bus can fulfil the role better. It fills in gaps in the network in the centre of cities, or provides a skip-stop service that the U-bahn cannot. 

Also, when it comes to tourists, most DEFINITELY do tourists shy away from buses rather than fixed rail transport with clear, easy to understand networks. In every city I have travelled in, getting my head around the bus network always takes longer than getting my head around the rail transport. Even in Japan where one sees the most complex service patterns on their rail networks did I find it infinitely more simple than by bus. I think most people feel the same.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Then, my perceptions about double-deck buses in Berlin (BVG buses, that is, not touristic ones) filled with tourists brandishing cameras on windows as if they were leisure rides or city-tour buses is wrong. (it could well be, I'm not claiming otherwise).


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## Svartmetall

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Then, my perceptions about double-deck buses in Berlin (BVG buses, that is, not touristic ones) filled with tourists brandishing cameras on windows as if they were leisure rides or city-tour buses is wrong. (it could well be, I'm not claiming otherwise).


But that's different. Many tour guides to Berlin recommend taking bus 100 - because it's double deck and it goes through some main sights. Tourists taking a bus because it offers views is not that surprising - many do the same in London too. It does, however, not mean that buses are user friendly at all for tourists normally. 

http://www.visitberlin.de/en/article/experience-berlin-by-bus-100

See - it's even recommended on the main site for tourism in Berlin.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/light-rail/potsdam-to-upgrade-tram-network.html?channel=542
> 
> *Potsdam to upgrade tram network*
> Tuesday, October 28, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The municipal government in Potsdam and Potsdam Transport (ViP) have unveiled a €50m plan to upgrade the German city's 29km tram network_
> 
> The proposals include an extension to the new Hasso-Platner Institute campus at Jungfernsee (€7.5m), upgrading of track on Heinrich Mann Allee in the city centre (€15m), and modification of the crossing at Leipziger Dreieck (€14m).
> 
> ViP will also invest €25m in the lengthening of eight of its fleet of 17 Siemens Combino low-floor LRVs from 30m to 40m, adding 52 additional seats to each vehicle.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...s-pulls-out-of-berlin-s-bahn-competition.html
> 
> *National Express pulls out of Berlin S-Bahn competition*
> 30 Oct 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GERMANY: National Express has confirmed that it has withdrawn from the competition for a contract to operate the Berlin S-Bahn’s ‘Ring & Branches’ service group. This leaves incumbent Deutsche Bahn as the only remaining candidate.
> 
> While transport authority VBB had declined to name the prequalified bidders for the contract, DB and National Express had confirmed they were included. RATP and MTR Corp were reported to have withdrawn previously. Potential bidders are understood to have been concerned about the complexity of the protracted process and the detailed requirements
> 
> ...


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ To be honest I'm not sure this is a good thing. MTR Corp are a great operator and if they are backing away leaving the incumbent that badly maintained the trains and led to the system grinding to a halt a while back, then there is no pressure on DB to up their game... Perhaps others have another impression, though.


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## Svartmetall

To Berliners, how much transport disruption on the rail transport is there on Christmas eve? I am in Berlin then and want to take lots of photos and videos of the transport.


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## vandiss

There are plans afoot to extend the U1 from Warschauer Straße to Ostkreuz, thus giving the line a connection to the Ringbahn.

You'll have to Google for the story as I can't post links with my meagre post count... :bash:


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## tunnel owl

Wilhem275 said:


> Thank you as usual for all this competence. I miss the city and its rails so much, and the day I'll get back there you'll have a free beer :cheers:


 You´re welcome :cheers:

Well in other cities like Munich or Vienna U3 to Mexikoplatz would already work. Let´s see if they get the Ostkreuz-extension some further to realization. At least it´s not forbidden anymore to talk about some more U-Bahnstations. There is nothing new to say, albeit that estimated costs are about 100-140 Mill. Euro. This is probably more than needed, but better to Keep the costs than double them or more like BER.

Notable Statement from Berlin finance-council is, that they agree with the demand of new cars for metro-fleet. Those are badly needed as Substitute for old ones before any extensions. 

Kind regards and happy new year


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## Suburbanist

Aren't BVG fares too low, in your opinion, tunnel owl?


----------



## Hybrid 87

How much actually do you have to pay for rides in Berlin?

Did I understand it correctly from the BVG homepage (after I searched like 5 minutes for the ticket prices)?:
1 short ride (4 S- and U-Bahn stations or 6 tram stations) - 1.60EUR
1 ride (AB zone) - 2.70EUR
1 day (AB zone) - 6.90EUR
7 days (AB zone) - 29.50EUR

I know it would be pointless to compare fares between Berlin (a almost 3.5 million city) with Riga (a almost 1 million city) but just FYI:
1 ride - 0.60EUR (or 1.20EUR if bought in the vehicle)
24 hours, unlimited rides - 2.50EUR
5 days, one route, unlimited rides - 5.00EUR
5 days, all routes, unlimited rides - 8.00EUR
one month, working days only, one route, unlimited rides - 20.00EUR,
one month, all days, one route, unlimited rides - 25.00EUR,
one month, working days only, all routes, unlimited rides - 30.00EUR,
one month, all, days, all routes, unlimited rides - 40.00EUR,
50% discount for full-time students and parents of large families,
Free rides for - handicapped people (and one accompanying person), pensioners and pupils.


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## tunnel owl

Suburbanist said:


> Aren't BVG fares too low, in your opinion, tunnel owl?


No, I don´t think 2,70 Euros is too low. Still there is the opportunity to get 4 rides for 9 Euros, btw. Basically it´s not the fares about to complain. In earlier times fares had been far to low, compared with other german cities. Meanwhile Berlin seems to have a top-position regarding this. 

In general public-transport in Germany is not beneficial and still there has to be paid something from county or city. That´s what I meant, what is to talk about if it comes to new trains.


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## Suburbanist

tunnel owl said:


> No, I don´t think 2,70 Euros is too low. Still there is the opportunity to get 4 rides for 9 Euros, btw. Basically it´s not the fares about to complain. In earlier times fares had been far to low, compared with other german cities. Meanwhile Berlin seems to have a top-position regarding this.
> 
> In general public-transport in Germany is not beneficial and still there has to be paid something from county or city. That´s what I meant, what is to talk about if it comes to new trains.


I'm not thinking in terms of single-ride tickets, but passes and subscriptions.


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## tunnel owl

Suburbanist said:


> I'm not thinking in terms of single-ride tickets, but passes and subscriptions.


 What do you mean with passes and subscriptions? Daily and monthly passes?


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## Suburbanist

tunnel owl said:


> What do you mean with passes and subscriptions? Daily and monthly passes?


Yes. GVB weekly and monthly passes are rather cheap. Maybe if they cost more, GVB would have more money to build more U-Bahn, like extending U5 to Moabit, extending U1 to Halensee etc.


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## tunnel owl

Suburbanist said:


> Yes. GVB weekly and monthly passes are rather cheap. Maybe if they cost more, GVB would have more money to build more U-Bahn, like extending U5 to Moabit, extending U1 to Halensee etc.


Yes, they are cheap. That´s the strategy as many Berliners are not very rich (in german terms) and have to use public transport. Making those passes more expensive would not make more U-Bahn extensions possible, I´m sure. Furthermore BVG is more an authority than a company. It´s based on wealthfare principles and is not allowed to take part at competitions for example. It has a direct contract with Berlin like other european cities do with their public transport in accordance with EU-law 1370.


At the moment projects/investments are only possible with federal founds, still they give you up to 80% of the money (20% from this has to come from county). The fares in Germany have to meet the amount of money spended for operation (maintainance, stuff). Last year BVG managed to do this without a loss of money and even a small profit. This calculation does not include new trains, extensions, investments etc.


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## Suburbanist

Is there some easy to check database of ridership on different U-Bahn and S-Bahn lines (and maybe metro tram lines) in Berlin?


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## Svartmetall

I've been in Berlin recently and have a number of videos from the city showcasing its public transport system. 

Firstly, on the day of arrival it was very late, so I took some basic videos from the Hauptbahnhof and surroundings. 

Departure of an S-bahn train at night from Hauptbahnhof. 







Hauptbahnhof ICE3 and S-bahn arrival. 







Walking from the Hauptbahnhof to the U55 station. 







U55 train arrives at Hauptbahnhof station. 







U55 train departure. 







U-bahn station Bundestag entrance to platform level. 







Finally - a short ride on the U55 between Bundestag and Hauptbahnhof to give an impression of the trains, the ride quality and the announcements used. 






Plenty of photos to come as well.


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## Svartmetall

Some pictures of some U-bahn stations on the U55 (to be linked up to the U5). 

Hauptbahnhof station.









Automatic ticketing machines. These were quite easy to use.


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## tunnel owl

Suburbanist said:


> Is there some easy to check database of ridership on different U-Bahn and S-Bahn lines (and maybe metro tram lines) in Berlin?


No. there is no official statistic to be found in the net. Basically BVG counts passengers boarding and leaving. Meanwhile all U-Bahn-trains will get infrared-counters at doors. As long as this is not complete, there are counting-trains, easily spotable with the marked Z for Zählzug at the drivers door. I prefer counting the average daily traffic in both directions between two stations. The number of whole passengers on line doesn´t give you any clue about capacity. For U-Bahn the most traffic is at U9 between Hansaplatz-Spichernstraße and U5 between Lichtenberg and Alexanderplatz with 80.000-85.000 per day between 2 stations in both directions. U7 Neukölln to Berliner Straße and U6 Mehringdamm to Kurt-Schumacher-Platz with about 75.000. Small-profil is some lower, with exception of U2 between Alexanderplatz and Zoologischer Garten.

Tram no.1 is M4 with 50.000 between Alex and Weissensee, also between every two stations and both directions daily traffic.

As it was asked before accuracy is 97,5% per contract. This seems to be international standard as I heard Warsaw-metro e.g. does the same. BVG-U-Bahn kept this overall in 2014, but reliability of trains is a problem meanwhile (to old).

In terms of passenger/km Berlin U-Bahn ranks second in Germany after Munich, before Nuremberg and Hamburg. Vienna has about the same as Berlin with half of the network-size, but passengers numbers of Berlin grow steadily, exceeding the 500 Millions/a to join the COMET-club of world metros. During the crisis of 2000 to 2005 ridership was significantly lower than today.


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## Svartmetall

I was actually really impressed with the Berlin U-bahn, though it was very quiet when I used it last due to it being Christmas eve...


----------



## Svartmetall

Some more footage of Berlin public transport that I captured whilst in Berlin on Christmas eve 2014. 

Firstly, a really swish-looking DB Regio train (is that a flirt?) at Hauptbahnhof and the arrival of an S-bahn train. 








Journey between Hauptbahnhof and Alexanderplatz through an unfortunately rainy window from the S-bahn. 








Two S-bahn departures from Alexanderplatz as well as a look at the platforms. 








One of the new multi-segmented Bombardier Flexity Trams (I think) outside Alexanderplatz. Can someone correct me on that?








A tour of Alexanderplatz U-bahn station showing all lines (U5, U8 and U2). 








Old G class train on U2 service at Alexanderplatz. 









Potsdamer Platz U-bahn station with G class rolling stock. Also a walk to the entrance of the station. 







More impressions of Berlin to come.


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## Maadeuurija

Svartmetall said:


> Firstly, a really swish-looking DB Regio train (is that a flirt?)


That should be a Talent 2 (aka "hamster cheeks")


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ Cheers for that! I wondered what it was, and so many trains look the same these days unless you see their face.


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## Wilhem275

It is: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Talent_2

It's registered as BR 442 and I find it a very good train. In NRW they packed too many seats inside, but in Berlin they are just fine.


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## Svartmetall

^^ Perfect, thanks. They look to be really nice trains. Now DB have to look at replacing rolling stock on the S-bahn in Berlin. They were looking a bit tired in places...


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## Woonsocket54

https://twitter.com/GermanEmbassy/status/583165130407583744


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## Svartmetall

I don't think the U is big enough.


----------



## redstarcastles

Some S-Bahn pics:


485 112 Grunau 14 February 2015


480 529 Grunau 14 February 2015


485 042 Grunau 14 February 2015


485 042 interior 14 February 2015

More here:
http://smu.gs/1ODhA3e


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## vandiss

Due to incomplete building work, Regional & ICE services will not run between Spandau and Alexanderplatz for three months from 28.08.2015.

Alternative routes will be used instead (i.e. via Gesundbrunnen).

Also, the s-bahn will be out of action along the same route in 2016.

Can only say as a commuter from Falkensee, this should be a fun quarter!

* Can't post a link to the story as I have less than 10 posts...


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## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...warded-berlin-s-bahn-operating-contracts.html
> 
> *DB to be directly awarded Berlin S-Bahn operating contracts*
> 04 Jun 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GERMANY: The Länder of Berlin and Brandenburg have announced their intention to award the incumbent S-Bahn Berlin GmbH subsidiary of Deutsche Bahn two ‘transitional’ contracts to continue to operate the Berlin S-Bahn network’s North-South and Stadtbahn service groups until planned competitively-tendered contracts are awarded.
> 
> This follows the direct award last year of a contract to operate the Ring & Branches service group.
> 
> The contracts are to be awarded by June 3 2016 and would start with the end of the current contract on December 15 2017. The end dates vary, to reflect the planned timescale for the transfer of services to future operators to be selected through competitive tendering. The planned end dates are:
> 
> North-South
> 
> May 16 2023: S85 (Grünau – Hauptbahnhof);
> November 12 2024: S25 (Teltow Stadt – Hennigsdorf), S15 (Frohnau – Hauptbahnhof);
> May 23 2025: S2 (Bernau – Blankenfelde);
> March 6 2026: S1 (Wannsee – Oranienburg).
> Stadtbahn
> 
> May 16 2023: S9 (Flughafen BER – Spandau), S45 (Flughafen BER – Südkreuz);
> November 12 2024: S75 (Ostbahnhof – Wartenberg);
> July 16 2025: S7 (Potsdam Hbf – Ahrensfelde);
> April 18 2026: S5 (Charlottenburg – Strausberg Nord);
> November 17 2026: S3 (Erkner – Spandau)
> ...


----------



## R-Link

I like these trains of Berlin underground.
















If we will have these in Kyiv (or in Lviv,maybe), then it will be good


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## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...rders-series-built-stadler-u-bahn-trains.html
> 
> *Berlin orders series-built Stadler U-Bahn trains*
> 20 Jul 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GERMANY: Berlin city transport operator BVG announced on July 20 that it had placed a firm order for 11 Stadler Pankow four-car Type IK U-Bahn trainsets. Deliveries are due in 2017.
> 
> The contract is worth €60m and will be funded by the city. It follows the delivery two prototype IK trainsets this year that have been undergoing testing on the U-Bahn network
> 
> ...


----------



## Wilhem275

Which station is that? I don't recognize it.


----------



## Autostädter

^ Olympiastadion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1db2K9nms0


----------



## Wilhem275

Oh yes, thank you, I didn't remember that roof.


----------



## R-Link

dimlys1994 said:


> From Railway Gazette:


Are they run in Berlin U-Bahn already? But in my opinion this train ( in my foto) looks better, than new.








If we will have selection between these 2 trains in Kyiv, then I will want to see exactly trains like in my foto


----------



## whatsuplucas

R-Link said:


> Are they run in Berlin U-Bahn already? But in my opinion this train ( in my foto) looks better, than new.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If we will have selection between these 2 trains in Kyiv, then I will want to see exactly trains like in my foto


While I do agree that the H trains are much, much more beautiful, you have to take it into account that those "uglier" (still very beautiful) trains are the IK trains, which are _Kleinprofil_ (small profile) and therefore only operate on the U1, U2, U3 and U4 lines (the *K* stands for Kleinprofil). The H trains only operate on the U5, U6, U7, U8 and U9 lines and are called _Großprofil_ (big profile). To my knowledge, there is no such thing as an I-series for the Großprofil so you needn't worry, they probably won't be replaced very soon. Even if there were an I-series, it would probably be very different from the IK one. For example, this is the Kleinprofil version of the H trains:









(photo from the German wikipedia)

Compare the image above with the one you posted and you'll probably notice A LOT of differences between the H and HK trains.


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## R-Link

whatsuplucas said:


> Compare the image above with the one you posted and you'll probably notice A LOT of differences between the H and HK trains.


 Yes, The H-trains are much more better. I speaked about they. HK trains have ugly lights


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## Wilhem275

I never understood the different headlights of H and Hk.


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## whatsuplucas

My wild guess is that this difference has something to do with the fact that the _Kleinprofil_ trains run overground much more often than the _Großprofil_ trains, thus needing less artificial illumination.

I also thought that, since HK trains were built 3 or so years later, they could have chosen smaller lights because of technological advances. This is really unlikely though.


----------



## R-Link

Wilhem275 said:


> I never understood the different headlights of H and Hk.


Headligth of HK has a round. In this event it is so ugly. Also HK has only 1 windscreen wiper but H train has 3 wipers. Also H train has vertical 2 lines (HK-1 line) in front of. HK train looks not very good, but H train looks very good and better even than new trains of Berlin underground


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## Woonsocket54

Nordbahnhof and Hauptbahnhof will finally be linked by tram starting 2015.08.29.

http://www.berlin-straba.de/

The circled connection below, which opens on that day, will allow M8 and M10 trams to go directly to Hauptbahnof instead of terminating at Nordbahnhof.


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## dimlys1994

^^And so it happened - updated map from urbanrail.net:


----------



## whatsuplucas

^^

And the new Tram station at Hauptbahnhof is a thing of beauty!

Taken from the German Straßenbahn thread:



noisrevid said:


>


----------



## Suburbanist

Will they extend this line to Moabit now? Is there political appetite for that?


----------



## whatsuplucas

Suburbanist said:


> Will they extend this line to Moabit now? Is there political appetite for that?


Yes. An extension to Moabit is planned along with a bunch of other extensions (about 100km) due 2050.


----------



## Baron Hirsch

Moabit extension is in the advanced planning stage. At the moment, the senate has decided on the route but is still hearing opinions about how to integrate the tram into the road (center or side). The senator has talked about opening the extension by 2019/2020, which might appear slow for such a minute extension, but would actually be fast by past experience with Berlin infrastructure investments (except of course for the city highway extension, which has outpaced all these minor rail extensions). 
Concerning the 100 km plan, this is to my knowledge just a demand by an NGO (BUND).
Article in German: http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/berl...m8-und-m10-nach-moabit,10809148,31525248.html


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## lechevallierpatrick

The New Haltestelle at Hauptbahnhof is a beauty but will they make it Barrierefrei (accessible)?


----------



## Suburbanist

lechevallierpatrick said:


> The New Haltestelle at Hauptbahnhof is a beauty but will they make it Barrierefrei (accessible)?


I doubt they'd had built it without accessibility. That would be a scandal and probably illegal.


----------



## lechevallierpatrick

I also read somewhere that there is the idea to go from Turmstrasse to Mierendorfplatz and after the closure of Tegel Airport to the airport itself where they plan a new technology park (similar to Adlershof) with a lot of housing too...


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## Suburbanist

Well, it would still be better if U55 was extended to Moabit and Texel technology park instead of a tram line, but there is not much wherewithal to extend U55 at the moment sadly


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## Baron Hirsch

Concerning the accessibility of the tram stop: there is a traffic light crossing that I believe allows for wheel chairs to easily access. There is to my knowledge no lift to the sub-levels of the station, only stairs; one would have to head for the main building and use lifts there. There are in theory also escalators to the sub-level, but these cannot be put to use until the underground S21 is completed, which was supposed to be in 2017 but the project has suffered some major complications. 
Concerning the extension options: at present, it seems only the politically insignificant FDP still believes in realizing the U5 extension, stressing that there is already a station for it at U-Bf Turmstraße, one level above the U9 station there. It would have the advantage of bringing tourists and employees from Moabit's hostels, hotels, and residential areas to the government and historical areas of town directly and quickly. I tend to agree with that, but at the moment no lobby in Berlin advocates serious subway extensions. BUND as a major lobby for public transport is completely addicted to the principle of tram extensions (including the idea of letting M10 take over the planned western extension of U5), which is of course a good thing to replace busy bus lines, but cannot compete capacity- or speedwise with subways or S-Bahn. Especially Berlin trams are notoriously slow, as the senator for traffic does not allow for serious priority signals. The BVG itself advocates some minor subway extensions, including an overground side branch of U6 to access the planned Tegel technology park.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2015/09/02/berlin-christens-ik-metro/
> 
> *Berlin christens IK metro*
> 2 SEP, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Berlin mayor Michael Müller has launched the IK series metro at Warschauer Straße station on September 2.
> 
> Built in neighbouring Velten, BVG has been testing two pre-series vehicles on Berlin’s U-bahn network.
> 
> BVG has already exercised an option for 11 four-car, bi-directional trains – the first of which will arrive in 2017 – from its original framework agreement with Stadler for 37 trains
> 
> ...


----------



## tunnel owl

Baron Hirsch said:


> The BVG itself advocates some minor subway extensions, including an overground side branch of U6 to access the planned Tegel technology park.


BVG is the only lobby for additional U-Bahn-extensions at the moment, that´s true. Pleas note, that BVG also takes tram-extensions into account, it´s including both.

Let´s see what will happen in future. Berlin paid 70,5 millions of Euro for that tram to Hauptbahnhof, taking all together. This is way too much for further extensions. There is a political anti-U-Bahn movement in Berlin-Council (Senat) which is stupid, ignorant and arrogant. It´s not about only BUND which is a nationwide NGO, with the same opinion everywhere (no surprise).

Kind regards


----------



## tunnel owl

dimlys1994 said:


> From Global Rail News:



The train runs on U12 for passenger-service daily until November, whent it will get it´s climate-check in Vienna.

Further 11 Ik-trains will be ordered for great-profile lines, They are planned to run for some years on U5 and will be refitted for small-profile than. This is kind of obscure thing, they done with the G-type LEW Hennigsdorf trains for Athenes in 1982. It´s because a very hard situation of trains in great-profile lines (U1 - U5). Since financial crisis of 2001 BVG was not allowed to buy new trains for those lines. Furthermore they are facing serious problems with bogies, and other things. It´s really bad. So next generation Jk and J will be put on order hopefully soon in a big contract, replacing F-series until F87 (except the refurbished ones) and small-profil refurbished trains A3 64/66. Yes , those trains are from 1964! If someone want to take a look on cities in financial crisis, come to Berlin. We offer this since 2001 :bash:


----------



## LtBk

Why would BUND oppose metro expansion?


----------



## nanar

I think Berlin (the City/lander) has a huge public debt ?


----------



## tunnel owl

LtBk said:


> Why would BUND oppose metro expansion?


If I recall correctly they say, that subway is only build in order to make space for more cars. They only favour trams, if they reduce street-capacity for cars. To be fair, they have a more religious character, doing a good job when it comes to safe areas for animals/plants, but public-transport is not their core-busineness. There are other NGOS like VCD or ProBahn, which are slightly more moderate in their opinions and have a more professional backround in terms of public-transport.

Kind regards


----------



## Baron Hirsch

The other argument is that trams cost a mere 10% of metro lines and can be built much faster. Looking at the tiny extension U Naturkundemuseum to Hauptbahnhof however, this does not seem to be true. As stated above, it was horribly expensive (I think this is because of the senate's policy to include all vaguely related costs in the bill (reconstructing sewage under the tram line, realigning the road, even when the scope of these go way beyond what would be necessary to make space for the rails). And the endless time it took to build, including closing down the preexisting tram route through Invalidenstraße, is also not a confirmation of the BUND's hypothesis. 
There is however a strong current in German environmentalist activism which opposes all heavy infrastructure projects for public transport (subways, HSR) and prefers trams and S-Bahns instead, not limited to BUND.


----------



## tunnel owl

*New Ik-train in service*

Enjoy this one, it must be from the 3rd of September (first day in Service)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enmPkgoGGhY

Kind regards


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## Wilhem275

U12, we meet again... I missed this news: U2 is interrupted between Gleisdreieck and Wittenbergplatz from 16/04 to the end of November.

The map shows these variations:
- U2 "Ostalgie"  Gleisdreieck - Pankow
- U1 becomes U12 and takes up the western half of U2, Ruhleben - Warschauer Str.
- limited U1 Uhlandstr. - Wittenbergplatz, "Ku'damm Shuttle"

Which works are going on between Gleisdreieck and Wittenbergplatz?


----------



## Baron Hirsch

Visible is mainly the strengthening of the U 2 viaduct at Gleisdreieck. 
Actually, it is good that U1 takes up its (almost) cold war route under the name of U 12 (Warschauer Str-Ruhleben). Terminating the line from popular Kreuzberg already at Uhlandstraße never made any sense. Another disadvantage was that U1 then could only carry six coaches because of platform lengths (it now carries 8 again), which is completely insufficient for the bustling Kreuzberg traffic. Unfortunately U 12 is not made to last.


----------



## tunnel owl

Baron Hirsch said:


> Visible is mainly the strengthening of the U 2 viaduct at Gleisdreieck.
> Actually, it is good that U1 takes up its (almost) cold war route under the name of U 12 (Warschauer Str-Ruhleben). Terminating the line from popular Kreuzberg already at Uhlandstraße never made any sense. Another disadvantage was that U1 then could only carry six coaches because of platform lengths (it now carries 8 again), which is completely insufficient for the bustling Kreuzberg traffic. Unfortunately U 12 is not made to last.


Platform length is no problem on any U1-station for 8-car-service. Only U4 has platform length only suitable for 4-car-trains. It´s mainly the lack of missing trains which made U1 run 8-car-trains impossible till now.

The actual layout with U1 running to Uhlandstraße is the only technical possibility to avoid at grade-crossings in Wittenbergplatz. Otherwise Warschauer Straße - Ruhleben would make sense, yes. But this would cause a completely unreliable service. Changing cross-platform at Wittenbergplatz is convenient running to the west, to the east it´s only U3, which is cross-platform. However this layout cannot be changed without massive reconstruction.

Besides strengthening the viaduct, the main resaon for works on U2 is reconstruction of steel-structure under Gleisdreieck-station U2-track running Ruhleben. Some years ago the same was done with the track runnnig to Pankow. Since 1912 nothing was done besides repair of WWII-damages.


----------



## Baron Hirsch

tunnel owl said:


> The actual layout with U1 running to Uhlandstraße is the only technical possibility to avoid at grade-crossings in Wittenbergplatz. Otherwise Warschauer Straße - Ruhleben would make sense, yes. But this would cause a completely unreliable service. Changing cross-platform at Wittenbergplatz is convenient running to the west, to the east it´s only U3, which is cross-platform. However this layout cannot be changed without massive reconstruction.


Not true. The route Uhlandstraße-Warschauer Straße was introduced as the 3 station line Wittenbergplatz-Uhlandstraße was running a deficit. Its Kurfürstendamm and Uhlandstraße stops are only equipped for 6 cars length, hence this length on U1, which otherwise could use more.


----------



## tunnel owl

Baron Hirsch said:


> Not true. The route Uhlandstraße-Warschauer Straße was introduced as the 3 station line Wittenbergplatz-Uhlandstraße was running a deficit. Its Kurfürstendamm and Uhlandstraße stops are only equipped for 6 cars length, hence this length on U1, which otherwise could use more.


No, this is not correct, who is telling something like that? I´m living in Berlin using U1 very frequently at those stops. Uhlandstraße and Kurfürstendamm have been constructed from start of operation with the standard length of 110 m, so they can accomodate 8-car-trains. It is planned to run Uhlandstraße - Warschauer Straße with 8-car-trains as soon as the interruption of U2 is over, believe me.

Every station in small-profile since 1907 (except 1910 opened U4) has a platform-lenght of 110 m. Uhlandstraße was opened in 1913, Kurfürstendamm was added in 1961 and even planned to be converted into great-profile station.

Kind regards


----------



## Wilhem275

A missing bit: the curve that connects Hbf with Gesundbrunnen.

Also the track from Birkenwerder to Hohen Neuendorf West. Overall, several connectors of the Aussenring are missing.


----------



## sunnywander

*Bombardier Flexity Berlin GT8-08Z 9003*


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...berlin-s-bahn-ring-concession.html?channel=00
> 
> *DB to retain Berlin S-Bahn Ring concession*
> Wednesday, December 09, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _BERLIN senator for urban development and the environment Mr Andreas Geisel confirmed on December 9 that the Senate has selected DB Regio subsidiary S-Bahn Berlin as preferred bidder for a contract to operate the Berlin S-Bahn Ring/South East group of lines for 15 years from 2021_
> 
> The contract covers the operation of around 9.7 million train-km per year and calls for the introduction of 191 new two-car EMUs, which will be supplied by a consortium of Siemens and Stadler Pankow. The fleet will enter service in five phases:
> 
> January 2021: Line S47 (Spindlersfeld - Tempelhof/Südkreuz - Bundesplatz)
> July 2022: Line S46 (Main Station - Königs Wusterhausen)
> October 2022: Line S8 (Wildau - Grünau - Hohen Neuendorf)
> April/October 2023: Lines S41 and S42 (two-phase commissioning)
> ...


----------



## metr0p0litain

This is a first impression how the new trains will look like:


----------



## Svartmetall

That is pretty hideous in my opinion...


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## 00Zy99

I like the one above it better.


----------



## ChinaBRICS

That's how designers think those metro users are like:


----------



## Skalka

The warm colors of the S-Bahn livery and that egdy form just don't match.
Just because Berliners boycott any S-Bahn with other colors doesn't mean they take any S-Bahn just because it's the right colors but nothing else.


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## Wilhem275

To be really honest, I would like to see a new and more modern color scheme. This one turns any design into an oldtimer. I like classics, but in a museum, if you know what I mean...
By comparison, the bright yellow of BVG will easily fit anything (and maybe doesn't fit well on older designs).

The proposed BR481 prototype was a good change, but not the best one, IMO:









Very '90-ish, indeed. But all that white is also an invite to taggers...

I'd be curious to see an evolution of the BR480 prototype, but with a touch of red somewhere to make it look less cold. And probably better with a metallic paint instead of the flat grey.










Anyway, the first step should be at least to streamline the design by adding the black strip around windows, like any 21st century vehicle.

How they turned an overall good livery...









...into grandma's train, just by removing the black strip.


----------



## whatsuplucas

Both are beautiful IMO, the first one just looks a tad more like a regional train and the current one looks a bit more friendly (probably because it's a grandma train? :lol...


----------



## 00Zy99

Indeed. All-red looks bland. Whereas the current paint scheme has a bit of class to it.


----------



## tunnel owl

Wilhem275 said:


> By comparison, the bright yellow of BVG will easily fit anything (and maybe doesn't fit well on older designs).


Yes it does not fit. The actual yellow is far more shinier than that of the F-type trains e. g.. This is more of orange, so a little bit of 70s. The original yellow of old AI,AII,B,C and EII-type indeed was another yellow, too.

As a matter of rule BVG decided to paint Hk,Ik,H and G-trains with the new yellow, whereas refurbished F and A3-trains have the older more orange one. It´s because it looks ugly beeing coupled together. Meanwhile you can spot some H-type, with a slightly other yellow on some parts because they had to clean damage from Graffitti fast. This is not very nice, too.

Personally I like the red/anthrazit-colour of old 485, too which gave him the name Cola-can. I also liked the grey prototype of 480 and 481 series. It was said, that designers like those colours, because it gives trains the best visual context to spot angles, edges etc.. It never reached any chance to become the real colour. Maybe the 485 Cola-can would have been the best compromise to let trains be red with modern addition.

The Stadler draft really sucks. Bombardiers trains for Hamburgs S-Bahn are much nicer. I hope they don´t create that ugly trains for U-Bahn and win the competition.

BTW:
8-car instead of 6-car-service started on U1


----------



## whatsuplucas

tunnel owl said:


> BTW:
> 8-car instead of 6-car-service started on U1


So finally those long platforms will make sense... Also, did the U12 nonsense (I fail to see the point of that) stop?


----------



## AAPMBerlin

whatsuplucas said:


> So finally those long platforms will make sense... Also, did the U12 nonsense (I fail to see the point of that) stop?


The U12 wasn´t nonsense. It was the only way to handle it with all the constructions on the U2 line.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ditional-light-rail-vehicles.html?channel=526
> 
> *Berlin orders additional light rail vehicles*
> Monday, December 21, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _BERLIN Transport Authority (BVG) has exercised an option with Bombardier Transportation for an additional 47 bi-directional Flexity low-floor LRVs at a cost of €176m_
> 
> The order is part of a framework agreement signed in 2006 for 206 vehicles. After testing four pre-series LRVs, BVG placed its first firm order for 99 vehicles in 2009, followed by a second batch of 39 LRVs in 2011. The total number of vehicles ordered so far is 189
> 
> ...


----------



## ikarus280

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but did you know about the VBB live map?

h ttp://fahrinfo.vbb.de/bin/help.exe/dn?L=vs_mobilitymap&tpl=fullmap&tabApp=show (sorry, don't have enough posts to post clickable links)

It's in existence for a while already, but has now reached a stage where almost every train and bus in Berlin/Brandenburg is shown in real time. The number behind the line number says how early or late a train/bus is. If there is just a hyphen, no real time data is availabe and it is shown as scheduled.

Note that the features under "Erweiterte Mobilität" are still in an experimental stage.


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## whatsuplucas

^^

This is probably my favorite website ever.


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## Wilhem275

I need a napkin pls :drool:


----------



## Pierre50

Great thanks for his great VBB link showing with a very helpfull way an information which is now becoming very common with the information panels displaying minutes to wait untill next arrivals. 
I'll be in Berlin in latye summer 2016, and I'll see how convenient is this tool.


----------



## tunnel owl

Pierre50 said:


> I'll be in Berlin in latye summer 2016, and I'll see how convenient is this tool.


 Right now I´m looking out of my window and I can assure you, that this page is the best for real time I´ve ever seen in Berlin. It may varies for about 30 seconds from where trains really are. 

Amazing, it´s made for bag wearers, means "Stoffbeutelträger" in german. People, spotting trains and collecting everything they can get from urban transport :banana:


----------



## doc7austin

Its not realtime.
They do not pull the data from some kind of GPS transmitter.
Instead they use the available delay data. These can be off by 1 or 2 minutes.


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## Baron Hirsch

It looks really good. I hope this is better than the previous systems at bus and tram stops. I remember some people referring to the minutes until next departure indicated there as "BVG time", i.e. a different mode from standard 60 second-minutes. Some minutes would grow incredibly long (close to 120 seconds), then an approaching metro would all of a sudden jump back from say "6 minutes until departure" to 7 minutes, etc. A more accurate system would be useful, and especially a system that can show S-Bahn, regional trains, busses etc. on one screen. So far I have only seen that at the S-Bahn ticket counter in Hauptbahnhof.


----------



## Suburbanist

Berlin, 1990. After the militarized border had been abandoned, but before the formal reunification of the city





.


----------



## whatsuplucas

^^

I was watching similar videos a couple of days ago. Those are just golden.


----------



## arctic_carlos

www.urbanrail.net has a very interesting map of how Berlin's divided network looked like in 1961, just after the wall was built:










http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/de/b/berlin-map-1961.gif


----------



## Autostädter

^ Interesting map. The western lines crossing the eastern sector passed through a couple of 'ghost stations' (which aren't shown on the map) that were closed off and guarded. Part of Friedrichstraße was basically a western station where West Berliners could change trains without having to pass border checks.


----------



## BlackArt-ist

Looking at this map I can't help wondering: did some East berliners try to flee using secret subterranean access to Friedrichstraße?


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## Wilhem275

They tried to flee using any hole left open...

If I'm not mistaken, there's a story of a family which fled using a service tunnel in the Alexanderplatz area, between U2 (in regular eastern service) and U8 (in western service crossing under the eastern sector).

I knew about the Düppel extension, but I didn't know the S-Bahn reached Staaken.
I found this list of former S-Bahn stretches: http://www.stillgelegte-s-bahn.de/index.htm


Apropos, any news about Falkensee?


----------



## Innsertnamehere

I remember watching a documentary detailing various escapes, and one being about a family that flagged down a west german train late at night, the conductor helped them onto the train, and they pretended to be west german passengers while passing by the guarded "ghost stations" until they reached West Germany again.


----------



## Wilhem275

Some German articles about that escape:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waisentunnel
http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/arch...r-u-bahn-in-den-westen,10810590,10225740.html

The quite complicated underground network of the area:









They got into Klosterstr. station (U2 Ost), then entered Klostertunnel first and then Waisertunnel (they meet under Grunerstr.); then walked all the way to the U8 tunnel and stopped a passing train.


From the Wiki article:


> Im November 2015 kam es durch Baggerarbeiten für einen Hotelneubau der Motel-One-Kette zu Senkungen am Tunnel der U2 sowie des Waisen- und Klostertunnels. Die Tunnel sackten teilweise um bis zu sechs Zentimeter ab und dürfen aktuell nur mit 15 km/h befahren werden.[1]


What I understand: in November 2015 there was a sinking up to 6 cm of the U2 tunnel, Waisentunnel and Klostertunnel, due to some excavation works for the building of a new hotel, and at the moment they allow trains at max 15 km/h.

Is this in effect also for U2? That poor line seems to be put in constant danger by any building work performed around it... (see Leipziger Platz).


----------



## tunnel owl

Innsertnamehere said:


> I remember watching a documentary detailing various escapes, and one being about a family that flagged down a west german train late at night, the conductor helped them onto the train, and they pretended to be west german passengers while passing by the guarded "ghost stations" until they reached West Germany again.


 It´s all correct besides the fact that they pretended to be west-german. It was the family of a east-german signal-worker who had special access and knowledge about the transit-lines. This action was kept secret from east and west until 1989, after he flew he worked as signal-worker at western BVG until he retired in the unified BVG in the 2000s (I suppose). The whole operation-sheme and security on those transit-lines U6 and U8 is very complex and described in two books about U6 and U8 (in german).

Kind regards


----------



## tunnel owl

Wilhem275 said:


> Is this in effect also for U2? That poor line seems to be put in constant danger by any building work performed around it... (see Leipziger Platz).


 Yes, at the moment Speed is reduced to 25 km/h whereas due to sharp curves normal speed there is 30 km/h anyway. This line really often is in danger because it was built mainly without reinforced concrete 100 years ago.

Kind regards


----------



## tunnel owl

BlackArt-ist said:


> Looking at this map I can't help wondering: did some East berliners try to flee using secret subterranean access to Friedrichstraße?


 No. Friedrichstraße was used as exchange-Point for spies, news etc. by secret-police. It was impossible for private persons to flew because no one really knew the complex labyrinth inside this station, separating Transit passengers from visitors and returners. As a passenger I remember this and I was astonished about the clear layout of the station, as they took all those rooms and floors away, creating a wide space.

Almost unknown is the fact that until 1966 east-german transport-workers had a facility at Friedrichstraße U-Bahn, in which they stored material for track-maintainance. They were allowed to pass controls and beeing on the U-Bahn platform, so they could catch a train going to West-Berlin, which they did to go for a shopping often. Surprisingly no one ever flew and after this lack of security was evident they had to move to Friedrichsfelde during one week.

Kind regards


----------



## vandiss

Here's a link to a photo library on the Tagesspiegel containing images of various Berlin train stations just after the fall of the wall. 

Interesting trying to work out where they were taken....

Link here


----------



## vandiss

Wilhem275 said:


> Apropos, any news about Falkensee?


There was an interview with a DB administrator in Berliner Zeitung a few days ago which says that the Falkensee s-bahn extension is "very important". 

However, the town's commuters currently seem happier being able to catch a Regional train direct to Berlin in 20 minutes rather than sitting on an S-Bahn train following the same route for 45 minutes!

Obviously, the commuter could change from S-Bahn to Regional at Spandau, if there was an agreeable connection time, but then they are at the mercy of timetables/delays etc.


----------



## doc7austin

> This action was kept secret from east and west until 1989, after he flew he worked as signal-worker at western BVG until he retired in the unified BVG in the 2000s (I suppose).


During the escape he manipulated a signal between Jannowitzbrücke and Heinrich Heine Str. (the Waisentunnel merges with Line U8 between those two stations). That way he managed to get a West Berlin U-Bahn train stopped. The conductor let them board and ordered them to lie on the floor. The boarding happened in the tunnel, therefore, the East German border guards did not took any notice.


----------



## Wilhem275

Well, Falkensee itself would have no problems, since it would keep the RE stop (being an S-Bahn terminus).

The issue is only for the two middle station, which enjoy a 30' frequency today; with a 20' frequency they'd get -5' on average waiting times but +20' travel time.
I guess the intention is to build more local stops on the S-Bahn.

EDIT: unless the idea is to have a 10' frequency on the S-Bahn. In that case the average waiting time drops from 15' to 5' and it's much more interesting for the intermediate stations.

EDIT2: and wait, the travel times the claimed are not true. Spandau - Alex is 20' by RE and 34' by S-Bahn. The travel time between Falkensee and Spandau would be the same.

Let's calculate it better. Falkensee - Alex:
- RE 27'
- RB 38'
- S-Bahn hypothesis: 7' Falkensee - Spandau + 34' Spandau - Alex = 41'

The RE would stop there anyway, so: no loss for Falkensee.
RB vs. S: +3' of travel times, but 5-10' less waiting.

It's a win even with a 20' frequency...


----------



## Urbanus

vandiss said:


> There was an interview with a DB administrator in Berliner Zeitung a few days ago which says that the Falkensee s-bahn extension is "very important".
> 
> However, the town's commuters currently seem happier being able to catch a Regional train direct to Berlin in 20 minutes rather than sitting on an S-Bahn train following the same route for 45 minutes!


But isn't the frequency of the regional trains really low? 

Of course the commuters will rather get faster to town, but they might change their mind when they experience the flexibility and freedom of a S-Bahn with a 10-20 minuttes headway.


----------



## Minato ku

Do you know how many passengers use regional trains every day in Berlin metro area?


----------



## Wilhem275

Urbanus said:


> But isn't the frequency of the regional trains really low?
> 
> Of course the commuters will rather get faster to town, but they might change their mind when they experience the flexibility and freedom of a S-Bahn with a 10-20 minuttes headway.


Sorry, I edited my last post after you wrote. In one word: travel with regional trains is not so much faster as they claim


----------



## Wilhem275

AlexNL said:


> Ah, thanks. 4-car trains make more sense.
> 
> Still, having just two car trains seems a bit odd. This gives me the idea that SB-B are planning to use those to strengthen rush-hour services, and leave them otherwise idling in a yard?


Odd anyway: in rush hour the standard should be 8 cars, at least on main branches.
6 cars trains are a common sight, coupled < < >. I understand their management is more complicated, involving the direction of materials, but it's been everyday business for decades.

These operations would be just the same, even if the 4-car is to become the base unit.

For the sake of curiosity, in Berlin's system the train lenght is usually reported by the number of axles, not cars. The stopping point in stations is signalled with an H sign plus "24x" for 6-cars, for example. I don't remember if there are "16x" signs.


----------



## y0sh

AlexNL said:


> Ah, thanks. 4-car trains make more sense.
> 
> Still, having just two car trains seems a bit odd. This gives me the idea that SB-B are planning to use those to strengthen rush-hour services, and leave them otherwise idling in a yard?


They usually use 6-car trains on the "Ringbahn" (circle line), maybe that's why. Longer trains are probably not needed as they run every 5 minute during rush hours.


----------



## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> I like the design, inside and outside. However, the length confuses me a bit. Is demand on SB-B low enough for just two car units (running in multiple) to suffice? All those intermediate cabs seem like a waste of space and money to me...
> 
> If I look at suburban networks of other cities, I mostly see 4-car units running in multiple, or even longer single units. London Overground recently had their 378's lengthened to 5 cars, and the commuter railroads around London (such as South West Trains and Thameslink) run in 10- or even 12 car compositions throughout the day. The new Thameslink trains (Class 700) only come in 8 car and 12 car compositions.
> 
> Also: without any interior gangways between the units I can imagine this does not help with passenger distribution. Wouldn't a walk-through design such as on the Typ H trains found on the U-Bahn be better to help distribute passengers across the train?


I agree with your points. Maybe they wanted to go for "maximum flexibility" regarding composition assembly? But it still looks a loss of both space and passenger distribution possibilities.


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## whatsuplucas

As previously said, there's nothing wrong with using 6-car trains sometimes because the frequency is good enough. Very often on the Ringbahn I take 6-car trains and it's okay.



Wilhem275 said:


> The stopping point in stations is signalled with an H sign plus "24x" for 6-cars, for example. I don't remember if there are "16x" signs.


There aren't.


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## vandiss

There was a meeting in Falkensee on Monday where DB outlined their "concept" of how the "Express S-Bahn" between Nauen and the Berlin Stadtbahn could function.

Here's a link to a Facebook image gallery - in some of the images you can read some of the slides from the presentation...

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.529645963871938.1073742026.227720477397823&type=3

Obviously this was only a presentation to try and generate support for the idea. Will be interesting to see what happens from here on...


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## Wilhem275

They introduced the "Express S-Bahn", sounds a bit weird but it can work (as long as timetables are respected, otherwise it's a disaster).


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## Suburbanist

Are U-55 works on schedule to open as planned?


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## lechevallierpatrick

Guten Tag!I would like to know if the 3 Tramlinien that stop at Hauptbahnhof carry 20 000 passengers daily as expected....Thank U-Danke


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## flierfy

Wilhem275 said:


> They introduced the "Express S-Bahn", sounds a bit weird but it can work (as long as timetables are respected, otherwise it's a disaster).


I wouldn't call it an introduction when it is a proposal which has merely been revealed. It is an idea which has many flaws and it is aiming for widening the business area of the S-Bahn operator rather than providing a real value to the people.


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## Svartmetall

I'm afraid I'm still not sold on the front of the new S-bahn rolling stock. I think they'll look okay, but I am not excited about them. The current newest stock look like excellent trains, though. It's only a shame the graffiti vandals have had their way with the trains interiors as otherwise they'd be very nice sets.


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## micro

Rebasepoiss said:


> Am I the only one who thinks the front of the Stadler/Siemens train looks really cool and futuristic? :shifty:


You're not alone


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## Autostädter

I like the front but it would look better without the glass on the front sides:


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## 00Zy99

Not sure if that's glass or just black paint. Windows would be acceptable, but the all-around black stripe looks dumb.


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## Antje

Is this actually one (extremely long) car train of 15 doors, as the image suggests? I think it might have a problem negotiating the curves.


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## Autostädter

^ Yes, they are re-arranging the tracks currently to remove all the curves (typical case of mismanagement in Berlin).


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## Wilhem275

LOL :lol:


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## Spam King

Autostädter said:


> I like the front but it would look better without the glass on the front sides:


Wow, that looks absolutely terrible.

Doesn't a flat front end like that also affect aerodynamics? I realize S-Bahn doesn't go that fast, but wouldn't a design like that increase power consumption?


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## Spam King

Suburbanist said:


> Are U-55 works on schedule to open as planned?


You mean U5.

Last I heard 2019 was the expected opening.


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## Wilhem275

S-Bahn in Berlin barely passes 80 km/h, the impact of aerodynamic drag is almost negligible. It begins to be relevant from 100 km/h.

A flat end allows to spare a lot of internal space, which is much more important in this context.


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## 00Zy99

^^ This


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## TM_Germany

metr0p0litain said:


> If you're interested in Berlin's shortest underground line U55, then you should have a look at this video:


Why is the ride so damn shaky? It's new, you would think they are able to build subway lines with smooth rides after a hundred years of experience...


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## Tramwayman

Flexity models of Berlin 


http://www.halling.at/Strassenbahn/Berlin


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## ikarus280

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Only until December, right? Then, they will open U-5 all the way from Alexanderplatz..


Currently the opening is projected for 2020.


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## 00Zy99

TM_Germany said:


> Why is the ride so damn shaky? It's new, you would think they are able to build subway lines with smooth rides after a hundred years of experience...


The camera isn't stabilized. Therefore all of the smallest movements are transmitted into it and exaggerated by a pendulum-like effect.


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## TM_Germany

00Zy99 said:


> The camera isn't stabilized. Therefore all of the smallest movements are transmitted into it and exaggerated by a pendulum-like effect.


No, that's not it. You can see that the foreground in the parts of the video that's in the subway is perfectly stable, because that's in the same car as the camera. The motion is only visible through the window in the other subway car. You can even see how the people's heads are moving along with the bumbs.


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## Woonsocket54

*Birthday wishes*

The 10th birthday of Berlin's Hauptbahnhof (main railway station) is being celebrated this week.






http://www.bild.de/regional/berlin/...hren-berliner-hauptbahnhof-45932876.bild.html

http://berlin-sehen.de/gemeinsam-feiern-10-jahre-hauptbahnhof-berlin/


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## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/urban/single-view/view/berlin-orders-stadler-u-bahn-trains.html
> 
> *Berlin orders Stadler U-Bahn trains*
> 06 Jul 2016
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> GERMANY: Stadler announced on July 7 that Berlin transport operator BVG had exercised a €140m option for the supply of a further 27 four-car Type IK metro trainsets, branded Icke by the operator.
> 
> BVG placed an initial order for two prototype Type IK trainsets in July 2012, with options for up to 34 series-built sets. Following tests running with the prototypes, in July 2015 BVG placed a €60m firm order for an initial 11 trainsets, which are now under construction at Stadler’s Pankow plant for delivery by mid-2017. The second batch will be produced as a follow-on to this order for delivery from April 2018. All 38 series-built sets are expected to be in service by mid-2019
> 
> ...


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## Svartmetall

They look nice!


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## jossevb

Nice trains!


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## Tågälskaren

Tram to reach Moabit.
A 'Pro Tram' alliance was established which plans to annually invest 100 million euros in new lines. 

*Straßenbahn-Strecke nach Moabit steht endlich fest
*
Ein Bündnis "Pro Straßenbahn" hat sich gegründet, das jährlich 100 Millionen in neue Linien investieren will. Und die Trasse für die Verlängerung vom Hauptbahnhof nach Moabit ist geregelt[...]


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## Wilhem275

This is interesting, but who's putting the actual money? Is it meant to be a PPP project, or a lease to the city?


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## whatsuplucas

Wilhem275 said:


> This is interesting, but who's putting the actual money? Is it meant to be a PPP project, or a lease to the city?


I might be wrong (my German is a bit rusty), but it doesn't say anything about being a PPP.


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## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/europe/single-view/view/berlin-s-bahn-mock-up-presented.html
> 
> *Berlin S-Bahn mock-up presented*
> 05 Oct 2016
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> GERMANY: Stadler Pankow and Siemens have presented a full-sized mock-up of the vehicle design they will supply for the Berlin S-Bahn. Built in the Babelsberg Film Studio in Berlin, the wooden-bodied model will undergo four weeks of customer experience testing with around 400 ‘representative passengers’ and members of official associations. Siemens reports that more than 2 000 people applied to take part in the test.
> 
> At the end of last year the Stadler-Siemens consortium signed a framework contract with DB subsidiary S-Bahn Berlin GmbH for up to 1 380 electric multiple-unit cars. The base order of 85 four-car and 21 two-car trainsets would be used on the Ring and southeastern branches of the 800 V DC electrified network
> 
> ...


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## Wilhem275

I said it when we saw the renders, and I repeat it even more now: the paintjob kills this train.
It looks like they just gave some primer and forgot to finish the job...

It's really time for a new livery.


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## themapguy

Yeah, it really looks like they are stuck in the 90ies. Also that new front is anything but sophisticated and progressive. It should represent a modern metropolis.


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## Wilhem275

The renders looked much more "cutting edge", and most of the effect here is lost due to the plain solid color.

Also, the fact that windows are not surrounded by the black strip, and the black doors (for contrast reasons) make it very dull.

I would go with a scheme of metallic black body and metallic red details (doors and cab), something similar to this:










I think it would underline much better the edgy shape (which is not bad).


Or, as I said earlier, just go for the BVG yellow, which works so good with modern shapes and black contrast (and would also make a lot of sense in terms of integration):











EDIT
My very rich editing skills allowed me to draft this fine work of art :lol:


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## Skalka

The new trains look so ordinary, but in this case, it's more of a good thing. You should treat the S-Bahn like an ordinary U-Bahn as much as possible. This is optically the closest thing to ordinary BVG subways on the S-Bahn without changing the rail infrastructure. It shows some kind of morbid charms in color.


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## Autostädter

I also did a little redesign:










It's potentially not a bad-looking train!


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## 00Zy99

dimlys1994 said:


> From Railway Gazette:





Wilhem275 said:


> EDIT
> My very rich editing skills allowed me to draft this fine work of art :lol:


I was truly put off by the shape when I saw renders, but its not that bad. It could be better, but its not hideous.

As for the paint, I would say meh. The yellow should be brighter, but that's about it. That dark grey and red combo doesn't really fit well on such a big train-too much surface area.


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## whatsuplucas

The train is extremely ugly. No paintjob in the world would make it beautiful.


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## tunnel owl

"But not for very long anymore, thank god. One of the biggest mistakes ever in the short history of this small network."

Yes indeed, If it comes to wheelchair accessability those solutions turn out to be horror. So, small profile trains in Berlin have to be put higher to manage platform height. There are plenty of other things to be kept in mind beside the sideboards. The devil is in the details. It will take one week to turn small into big or vice versa in depot.


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## 00Zy99

tunnel owl said:


> Using small-profile trains on big Profile lines is not very new. Madrid did this for a certain period. Amsterdam does it and Berlin two times long ago in the past. Athenes and also Pyongyang used east Berlin G-type rolling stock


NYC did it in the past as well.


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## tunnel owl

00Zy99 said:


> NYC did it in the past as well.


Wasn´t sure about this, thanks. This leads to an interesting question which cities did this in past and present. What about Buones Aires using Nagoya-trains e. g.?


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## Wilhem275

MrNogatco said:


> Lol I've been using it for years. It's from a picture of an S-Bahn sign I downloaded.


Isn't that a symbol of joy and freedom?  

I have some flimsy memory of having taken that photo 9-10 years ago during one of my Berlin trips, but to be fairly honest I may be confusing it with a similar subject.

It would be nice to find a list of stations where these neon signs are still in use. I know there's one in the Technikmuseum, but it has a square white border.


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## Suburbanist

Fares in Berlin are too low IMHO. If the fares (especially the subscription passes) were more costly, they'd have more money to buy rolling stock.


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## AlexNL

Low fares are a factor which attracts more passengers though, which might otherwise choose the car - adding to the congestion, CO2 emission, and increasing the likelyhood of a pedestrian or cyclist getting involved in an accident.


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## tunnel owl

Berlin train-problem has nothing to do with low fares. Price for AB 2h-ticket is 2,80 Euro next year. This is not cheap, even compared to other (richer) german cities with metro or light-rail. Every light-rail or metro in Germany has to buy trains with financial help of the community, with credits or a mixture of both. Fares are not enough.

Main reason for the situation is that Berlin-County went into financial crisis in 2001: Since than Berlin has a communal doubt of about 60.000.000.000 Euros for 3,5 Mill. inhabitants. This is similar to e. g. Greece and even the reasons for having this huge debt is similar to Greece (collapsing credits and banks leaving the losses at the citizen).

To Keep it short: Since 2001 Berlin is bankrupt and so nearly no money went into investition, BVG is a Berlin-owned company, rien ne vas plus.


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## Lw25

Why Berlin bankrupted back in 2001? If someone has some article about that, please, send it to me by pm.


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## Suburbanist

I tend to discount single-fares because, for commuters or people who use transportation often, what really counts are the price of subscriptions.


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## whatsuplucas

Suburbanist said:


> I tend to discount single-fares because, for commuters or people who use transportation often, what really counts are the price of subscriptions.


I see locals buying single tickets (especially 4-ticket packages) in Berlin very often...

I do agree though, the bulk of their ticket sales is made up of weekly/monthly/annual tickets and those can be relatively cheap if the person uses public transportation more than twice a day.


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## Suburbanist

whatsuplucas said:


> I see locals buying single tickets (especially 4-ticket packages) in Berlin very often...
> 
> I do agree though, the bulk of their ticket sales is made up of weekly/monthly/annual tickets and those can be relatively cheap if the person uses public transportation more than twice a day.


Tourists or the very occasional user should not be the major concern in terms of public transportation pricing.

AB annual subscription costs just €761. That comes at just € 1.22 per trip for someone who makes, on average, 12 trips (one-way) per week. It is not negligible, but - for Berlin incomes - a very good bargain.


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## tunnel owl

Lw25 said:


> Why Berlin bankrupted back in 2001? If someone has some article about that, please, send it to me by pm.


Take this one:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berliner_Bankenskandal

The only translation is in swedish, whatever this means :lol:

Kind regards


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## tunnel owl

Suburbanist said:


> AB annual subscription costs just €761. That comes at just € 1.22 per trip for someone who makes, on average, 12 trips (one-way) per week. It is not negligible, but - for Berlin incomes - a very good bargain.


Yes, but still not worth to mention as BVG needs 3 Billions of Euros to spend into modernization of tram and metro fleet until 2032.


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...s-major-light-rail-expansion.html?channel=526
> 
> *Berlin plans major light rail expansion*
> Thursday, December 01, 2016
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> _THE recently-elected Berlin City "Red-Red-Green" coalition government comprising the SPD or Social Democrats, "Linke" party and the Greens has concluded a wide-ranging coalition agreement covering all aspects of the city's government, including a major expansion of the tram network_
> 
> BerlinStrategie 2030 sets ambitious targets for the construction of new light rail infrastructure, expansion of cycling and pedestrian options, cancelling some road building schemes, a city-wide 30km/h speed limit, and removal of most traffic from Unter den Linden in central Berlin
> 
> ...


Details of rail projects in Berlin is in the link


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## LtBk

No expansion of U-Bahn?


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## tunnel owl

LtBk said:


> No expansion of U-Bahn?


No, unfortunately. It´s because of U-Bahn is always seen as to expensive in Berlin. Every other city in Europe expand every systems (tram, metro, urbanrail) if they have so. But let´s wait. At the moment this city is ruled by a bunch of left-winged hardliners without competence but with a lot of ideology.


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## Wilhem275

Not that all those tram extensions come for free...


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## Attus

Before the elections they promised to expand U-and S-Bahn in case of being elected.
Just after that they announced having no money for that (in fact, Berlin has huge debts) and expanding tram network instead.


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## tunnel owl

Wilhem275 said:


> Not that all those tram extensions come for free...


Most likely and uselful are that tram-projects foreseen for a long time:

1) Closing gap between Adlershof and Schöneweide including a new depot (substitution of more than 100 year olf Köpenick and Niederschöneweide-depot)

2) Rerouting of line 21 bringing it near to Ostkreuz. There is a very strong opposition against that

3) Rerouting and double-tracking tram in Mahlsdorf near S-Bahnstation

4) Extension from Hauptbahnhof to Turmstraße. This one is stupid as it makes the once planned U5-extension nearly impossible.

At the moment the political opposition probably will defend the Berlin-county budget-plan by law as all those pretty ideas (not only tram-projects) are based on very peciuliar, if not to say irregular financing (Schattenhaushalt in german) which already caused trouble with Eurostat in Luxemburg. EU says that financing like this is not allowed in EU-countries and Germany was one of the countries which wanted it that way because Greece tried the same some years before :lol:


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## whatsuplucas

tunnel owl said:


> 2) Rerouting of line 21 bringing it near to Ostkreuz. There is a very strong opposition against that


How different would it be? Line 21 already has two stops at Neue Bahnhofstraße and Marktstraße which are fairly close to Ostkreuz. Is this rerouting supposed to change the route so that it uses either Sonntag- or Simplonstraße?


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## Suburbanist

Does BVG consider the possibility of extending some platforms and making M1 and M4 60m-long trams?


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## Darryl

*updates on the U5 extension??? ...anyone?*

I'm surprised to see so little on the U5 extension project combining it with the current U55. To me, that is a very exciting and important project. It connects the most central and important parts of Berlin and goes right underneath the famed Unter den Linden boulevard, yet there is practically no discussion of it found on skyscrapercity (especially in english). Even the german thread on it has not been updated since April 2016!!

Is there no interest here in this project?? I thought I could receive updates on its progress, discussion about the station's designs, photos, etc...

Can anyone help out an American who will be visiting Berlin this summer (in July) on what I might expect to see? Is Unter den Linden all torn up still with construction? Or is the boulevard back to normal on the street level, and the construction is happening underground? Are there any most recent updates on when it all might be finished and open?

Thanks!


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## whatsuplucas

I feel like reporting on the U5 extension these days is like watching paint dry. I was there a couple weeks ago but didn't pay enough attention to Unter den Linden (I mostly skipped it, to be honest). However, I don't think there are many (if any) works going on at street level, but someone might be able to clarify this much better than I can.


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## flierfy

What do you expect, Darryl? The U5 runs in the underground where quite natural all the construction happen. There is very little to see for the public right now. If you want to see construction pregessing then you better watch the reconstruction of the Ostkreuz and Warschauer Str stations. There are plenty of forums threads on the internet discussing the construction works with almost daily photo updates.


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## 00Zy99

When is U5 supposed to be finished again?


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## mrsmartman

It is exciting to see U5 is reaching Berlin Hauptbahnhof. 1 km of metro in the city center is worth 2 km of metro in the suburbs.


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## lechevallierpatrick

I think the U5 (or U55) is supposed to open in 2020....I also think that they have encountered many problems with infiltrating water especially under Unter den Linden....That's all I know....


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## themapguy

Well in other countries you have workers putting a bazillion of Selfies on Instagram, exposing every little detail of the construction process for the public to see and share. That just doesn't happen in Germany though or very rarely. It is the same here as with the BER construction (compare that for example to projects in the Philippines, like the Mactan Cebu Airport or OKADA Manila > http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1473502&page=209). So we have to rely on what is visible from the outside, via project webcams or official press releases / websites. And that is often rather limited.

For the U5 the last update on the official website ( http://www.projekt-u5.de/en/construction-journal/ ) was... for Christmas 2016.


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## Darryl

flierfy said:


> What do you expect, Darryl? The U5 runs in the underground where quite natural all the construction happen. There is very little to see for the public right now. If you want to see construction pregessing then you better watch the reconstruction of the Ostkreuz and Warschauer Str stations. There are plenty of forums threads on the internet discussing the construction works with almost daily photo updates.


I think you misunderstood what I was trying to get at regarding the street level comment. What I meant by that is: Are myself and my visitors going to be able to enjoy Unter den Linden as it is supposed to look or does a large part of the street still have construction equipment, big dirt holes, and fencing all over the place? In other words, I am actually hoping that the station entrances at street level are completed and the remaining construction is underground and out of the public's sight.


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## ikarus280

There is a guy/website that documents construction projects in public transport and one section is about the U5. Occasionally the galleries also contain "insider" photos.

baustellen-doku.info/berlin_erweiterung_u5/

There is also a thread in a public transport forum.

bahninfo-forum.de/read.php?9,466791,page=21

Both sites are in German, but maybe Google Translate can bring some sense into them. And with Google Chrome you can have entire pages translated very easily within the original page.

PS: Sorry, can't post clickable links yet.


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## themapguy

Well look at that. After I added the official project website to my tracker, today there is an update with photos from the underground: http://www.projekt-u5.de/en/construction-journal/shell-built-three-levels/



> The shell of underground station unter den Linden is in the final phase. In summer 2017 the expansion will begin.
> 
> On the U5 level of the future crossroads the production of the sole is completed. On the intermediate level, which later serves as a distribution area, the future operating areas will be produced as part of masonry work. At the U6 level, residual work is performed without affecting the passage of the U6.
> 
> Before the removal of the subway station can start, the existing pillars must be replaced by the round pillars. The stiffening tubes can also be removed then.


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## Darryl

Thanks ikarus280 and themapguy for the links! They are helpful. My German is good enough that I can get the gist, I only use translators for specific passages I want clarification on sometimes.


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## 00Zy99

When they say "in summer 2017 the expansion will begin", are they talking about digging, or service, or what?


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## ikarus280

Probably laying the track and building the station interiors.


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## tunnel owl

ikarus280 said:


> Probably laying the track and building the station interiors.


The station-shell of Rotes Rathaus is complete, station-shell of Unter den Linden ist almost complete. next year they plan to open the construction-site for the public on one day in summer.

2017 is the start for laying tracks in the tunnels between Brandenburger Tor and Unter den Linden, including almost every other thing (signalisation, station-finish). The same is for Alexanderplatz and Rotes Rathaus section. Still missing is the finish of Museumsinsel. It will be proably the bottleneck in the timeline to get in service in 2020. They are working with frozen-ground and are still in preparation with that.

Not to forget that the existing U55 will have to be refiited for U5. The second track and signalisation plus siding-tracks at Hauptbahnhof have to be build or upgraded. The provisional depot at Hauptbahnhof has to be demolished for that. The nearest event will be the input of 4 vinatge D/DL-trains, refitted for service into U55 to replace the F-trains at thje 27.03.17.


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## whatsuplucas

tunnel owl said:


> The nearest event will be the input of 4 vinatge D/DL-trains, refitted for service into U55 to replace the F-trains at thje 27.03.17.


I wonder if they'll buy those back from Pyongyang...


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## frizzos

whatsuplucas said:


> I wonder if they'll buy those back from Pyongyang...


Maybe these are the ones, Pyöngyang didn't want to buy, cause they were in such a bad state. 
No - just kidding - They were kept for museum-purposes


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## vandiss

The U5 and U55 tunnels are now connected...

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/b...-und-u55-sind-endlich-verbunden/19557344.html


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## Wilhem275

So now one can walk underground all the way from the Tierpark to Moabit


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## A Chicagoan

*Berlin Hauptbahnof (Berlin Central Station) with incoming S-Bahn train:*

S-Bahn at Hauptbahnhof Berlin [CC BY-SA 4.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0)], by Martin Falbisoner (Own work), from Wikimedia Commons


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## Kane_84

*Alexanderplatz railway station*


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## tunnel owl

Well, of cause times are hard and we have to run small-profile trains on big-profile, but at least we don´t have lost our humour. Check this one, it´s in german and based on an old song from the 80s:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnXnLeo54FA&feature=youtu.be

For curious fans who like to know how IK-trains look on U5, try this nice pics from Frankford Ave., sorry Frankfurter Allee:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wMByv38C4A

IK17-trains on U5 gives the opportunity to substitute the F79-series which at first should have been refurbished like F74/F76. But it turned out, that they tried a special kind of aluminium for F79 which is a mess and nobody would use this nowadays anymore. But of cause, 40 years for a aluminium-train isn´t bad anyway. As this is a problem urgently has to be fixed, BVG signed an emergeny contract to order additional 80 cars of IK17 for U5.

The devil lies in the details and if trains not designed for big-profile run on those lines, there are many little problems have to be solved at first e. g.: Recognizing the train correctly at the Information-Software-system, handle siding-tracks because IK is 3 m longer than H-Trains etc.. The IK17 can be refitted into small-profile in one week, which is foreseen if new trains are ready.



Kind regards


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## Suburbanist

Germany is a rich country and they should invest more in the transportation system in their capital.


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## luacstjh98

Well, the federal government probably is, but the city authorities of Berlin is broke, and that's what matters...


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## Suburbanist

luacstjh98 said:


> Well, the federal government probably is, but the city authorities of Berlin is broke, and that's what matters...


It is in the interest of Germany to have a capital that can rival London or Paris in terms of public transportation infrastructure... BER, U-55, shortage of trains - all issues that should be sorted.


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## Attus

Suburbanist said:


> It is in the interest of Germany to have a capital that can rival London or Paris in terms of public transportation infrastructure...


Not necesserily. Berlin (for well known historical reasons) is significantly smaller than those two, has a population of "only" some 3.5 million and is being surrounded by a sparsely populated region. 
Additionally, Germany has some other important and populated metropolitan areas as well, e.g. Rhine/Main (Frankfurt, Mainz, Wiesbaden, etc.), Rhine/Ruhr (Cologne, Dusseldorf, Dortmund, etc.). Having a capital vs. capital race makes no sense.


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## The Polwoman

And it is neither expected to even come close in the future, as Germany as a whole has a shrinking population. The current infrastructure of Berlin isn't bad at all...

With one obvious exception!

And that exception may also have contributed to a lack of elite influx into Berlin in the past 25 years. But that also prevents Berlin from being an expensive city like the other two named capitals. This makes Berlin a more exciting city instead of being a playground for the rich and an open-air museum.


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## Kane_84

In my opinion, having visited the mass transportation systems of London, Paris and Berlin. I can say that Berlin has a mass transportation system more efficient than the other two cities.

The combination of U-Bahn and S-Bahn sistems are more efficient than Métro and RER in Paris, and much more efficient than Underground and Overground in London.

The big difference here is the S-Bahn, that is much more faster than de London Overground, and has a higher coverage in the city than the Paris RER.


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## Suburbanist

Berlin does need more 'elite influx' and it has the space to absorb more people, Brandenburg state could be much more densely developed.


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## Rational Plan

What does Berlin really need. Extend the U5 through the centre and out again some through the NW suburbs. 

Maybe some more Trams into the centre and the .West End, allowing more one seat rides for Easterners. 

Unless there is a big surge in population I can't see the need for much more apat from small schemes.


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## FabriFlorence

Kane_84 said:


> In my opinion, having visited the mass transportation systems of London, Paris and Berlin. I can say that Berlin has a mass transportation system more efficient than the other two cities.
> 
> The combination of U-Bahn and S-Bahn sistems are more efficient than Métro and RER in Paris, and much more efficient than Underground and Overground in London.
> 
> The big difference here is the S-Bahn, that is much more faster than de London Overground, and has a higher coverage in the city than the Paris RER.


I completely agree. The integration between U-Bahn and S-Bahn systems in Berlin is great.

IMO the only weakness of Berlin transportation system is the U-Bahn network that is not developed enough for a almost 900 square kilometers city. 
Some areas, especially in the east part of the city, are not well served by S-Bahn and not served at all by U-Bahn.


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## Wilhem275

Don't forget the extensive and fast tram network.


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## sergiogiorgini

Berlin probably has the best transit system in the world for a city that isn't a big metropolis. It's a little old and could use some upgrading, but it works, it's mostly underground and it even runs at night.

But the Overground cannot be seen as the RER of London. London won't have a true equivalent until the Elizabeth Line opens, but it also doesn't need one as badly as Paris did — the tube is faster than the Métro with more widely-spaced stations and goes far out into the suburbs. The Overground is a network of peripheral railway lines connecting the outer suburbs to each other, rather like the Parisian trams and future Métro lines.


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## AlexNL

Apart from the TfL-branded Overground network, London has an extensive network of National Rail services which link the suburbs with each other and with London's Zone 1.

Technically speaking, London Overground is yet another National Rail service. While TfL has given London Overground a distinct branding and appeal (it appears on the Tube Map, for example) the standard National Rail Conditions of Carriage apply to LO services, unlike London Underground and DLR.


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...il-planning-tender-announced.html?channel=526

*Central Berlin light rail planning tender announced*
January 05, 2018










_BERLIN Transport (BVG) has published a tender requesting planning services for the first major expansion of tram services in the historic centre of Berlin since World War II_

A 3.35km long new double-track line is proposed as part of the BerlinStrategie 2030 plan announced in December 2016 to restore the city’s tram network in parts of the city that became West Berlin after WWII

...


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## Da18be

Any news about the extension of line 5?


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## Da18be

Any photos?


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## vandiss

Da18be said:


> Any news about the extension of line 5?


This recent article states that the new line (Hauptbahnhof - Hönow) will be complete by the end of 2020...

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/b...monate-nicht-zum-alexanderplatz/20810082.html


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## tunnel owl

Falubaz said:


> See the poor quality of work there, or scandals with cars - even lately - tasting exhaust gases on monkeys and EVEN people. Which - unfortunately - is very bad.


Oh man, come on. Maybe it´s popular to have some german-bashing in some parts of Europe at the moment. As a german meanwhile I can feel with american people being blamed for everything going wrong in the world and I understand them getting tired of that:nuts:

But let us come back to Berlin Transport. 

If we want to compare, we should switch from China to european and american examples. Back in 2008 I was in NYC and people complained about 89 TBMs building subways in Shanghai and SAS still is going on slowly with only 2 TBMs. But NYC did in the 1910-20s that, what Shanghai is doing now. So what´s the point, building another 500 km subway in NYC?

Average time for metro-development in Europe is slow compared to China. And surprisingly (or not) average cost of building km metro in Europe is more or less 100 Mill. Euros everywhere. And should we compare with Vienna, Madrid or Milan or should we take Rome, Helsinki or Amsterdam as bad examples. And would it make sense?

Berlins network of U- and S-Bahn has disadvantages outside the S-Bahn-circle, probably few visitors getting there. U-Bahn or S-Bahn needs to be extended there, mainly in eastern parts of the city. Trams can´t be substitional as the time-distance is far too much being attractive. At the the same time plenty of bus-corridors in the western part of the city are worth to be replaced by trams.

But to be honest, it´s not a big political task at the moment. Personally I think most of the new tram-projects will never happen as they are too ambitious and do not serve the corridors mostly needed. And yes, Berlin already has a good network in european terms. It´s a matter of usefulness to expand the network, not of necessarity. At the moment, no one is left behind getting into busses, trams and U-Bahn. But it will become worse as it´s a growing city.


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## tunnel owl

double post, deleted, sorry.


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## AAPMBerlin

Darryl said:


> Thanks for answering.
> 
> I am confused because while I can certainly understand the planning, digging, excavation, boring of the tunnels, and constructing the underground interior spaces takes ages (and it did), I figured the work that is left (correct me if I'm wrong) was just finishing the already built interiors. Like putting in flooring/wall and ceiling treatments, painting, putting in escalators, etc… I have trouble understanding why that type of finishing work would take YEARS to complete. I mean, whole buildings go up from scratch in that same time frame. 2020 is two years from now. Isn’t that enough time to finish already built interiors?


The fact ist, that they can only build the complete station Museuminsel now. Under the river Spree an completely in sand and water. So they freezed in the last months the complete volume of the Station around the tunnel. And now they can excavate and build without danger of "Swimming"


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## Suburbanist

Any new developments on a westward expansion of U5(55)?


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## tunnel owl

Suburbanist said:


> Any new developments on a westward expansion of U5(55)?



No. Tram will be extended to Turmstraße instead of metro.


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## Kane_84

*Rathaus Spandau U7*







PD: I love this station


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## MiaM

Hi there! I've been reading this thread for a while, and finally I've reached the end. Sorry for writing a wall of text, but: 

Some various comments re stuff that has been discussed:

Re S-Bahn to Falkensee:

S-Bahn to Falkensee seems like one way to free up the mainline tracks ("Fehrnbahngleis") for other services. What plands do DB have here? I.E. do they want to run more ICE services Berlin-Hamburg, more regional services, more freight trains (do any non-neglible amout of freight trains run Falkensee - Spandau), or?

Is it known if the crossover between Finkenkrug and Brieslang has or hasn't room for at least one additional track? If there is room for one track more there, S-Bahn to Nauen seems like a good idea. That would either require expensive flyovers or more likely crossing on the flat for the northwestern and northeastern curves at that crossing though. It seems like RE6 is the only passenger train using the northeastern curve, and that train might in the future run through rebuildt mainline tracks throgh Tegel anyways. No passenger trains seem to run on the northwestern curve. Are theese curves used for freight trains and if so how much are they used?

(Also L202/Finkenkruger Straße might need a widened viaduct if S-Bahn would be extended to Nauen).

Once upon a time there were S-Bahn tracks next to the mainline tracks between Jungfernheide and Spandau. Would it be feasable to rebuild S-bahn there, to make it possible to have an express service to Spandau and further to Falkensee? That service could use the western curve on the "S21" connection to Hbf.


Maybe a crazy idea:
Another way to get local/regional trains to Nauen, freeing up capacity on the mainline tracks, would be to reactivate the old Wustermark-Nauen line. Unfortunitely it connects to the tracks on the north side at Wustermark while the regional trains stops between Wustermark and Spandau are on the southern side of the non-stopping tracks.


Re U-Bahn to "Weißensee":

I think using the name Weißensee is kind of derailing the discussion. Of course the current and any proposed line would pass near Weißensee, but the real destination is Wartenberg and Hohenschönhausen.

Unless there are any plans to build up the forrest around Fauler See, replacing Stadion Buchallee or Ernst Thälman-park with houses, or replacing the one family ("kleinburgerlische") houses around Feldmanstraße, Hansastraße with high-rise ("Plattenbau") buildings, I see no real reason for the passenger numbers to increase on the line between the city-centre nearest outskirts of Wartenberg/Hohenschönhausen and the more central parts of the line.

That leaves us with what will happen at Wartenberg - Hohen Schönhausen in the future. Today both Wartenberg and Hohen Schönhausen is served by S75 with 10-min-service most of the day. Hohen Schönhausen also sees some less frequent regional trains going to Ostkreuz (and further out to the southeast in some cases). It also seems like the plan is to not run the S75 on the Stadtbahn through the city centre.

No wounder that people in Wartenberg and Hohen Schönhausen takes the M4 tram instead of the S75 or reginal trains, as the tram goes directly to the central areas without change, runs more often and for most people there is a tram stop nearer than the S-Bahn stations.

If the goal really were to releive the M4 they could change things around so that S75 always run through the Stadtbahn at least every 10 minutes, and an additional 10-min service reverses somewhere at Ostkreuz, Ostbahnhof or Waschauer Straße. Or they could add regional platforms at Wartenberg and run some express shuttle between Wartenberg and Ostkreuz stopping only at Hohen Schönhausen and maybe Lichtenberg.

Or, the city planners could just note that it would cost a lot to add more rail capacity to the Wartenberg - Hohen Schönhausen area, and just not allow permissions for building more houses in that area.

There seems to be plenty of other areas in Berlin, at a similar distance to the city centre, where you could start building more houses and where it would be possible to have more rail capacity at less expense than rebuilding M4 into an U-Bahn.

One important thing when doing planning, no matter if it is just traffic or general planning, is to not think about how the distances between places looks on a true map, but rather see the distances as something more schematic. By doing this, Wartenberg seems more distant, based on that it actually takes a rather long time between Wartenberg and the city centre by rail, and thus there are better places to build more houses.

Also I think that M4 might actually be helped if it would be extended from Zingster Straße to S-Wartenberg, and/or a short shuttle between Zingster Straße / Wartenberg to Falkenberg would be added. That would make it easier for people nearby a tram station to take S-Bahn instead of the tram.

Also if it's not already done, they could turn some trams short somewhere before they reach Hohen Schönhausen / Wartenberg, if there is a problem for people along the way to use the line due to overcrowding.

But to be honest, I don't see any real problem with just running longer trams and increasing the frequency


Re Märkisches Vierteil:

How about BOTH extending U8 and M1? It actually seems like a good idea to route M1 to Wittenau. Sure, the U8 takes you to Alexanderplatz but S1 and S26 takes you to Friedrischstraße afaik faster, so chainging at Wittenau doesen't seem like such a bad idea anyways.




AAPMBerlin said:


> --> http://www.cnb-online.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/AG-1-Bedarfsplan.pdf


Intersting map!

On that map we can see that they intend to double track S-Bahn to Bernau (= making a higher frequency possible) before building S-Bahn to Falkensee.

Are there any plans on how a passenger station at Karower Kreuz could be made? S8 and RE5 uses curves here, and it seems like a bad idea to have platforms in curves. According to the map, the station is more needed than, and planned to be buildt before, any S-Bahn or extended regional trains between Karower Kreuz and Wartenberg. That makes platforms on curves, or straightening the curves, neccesary.

Why is S-Bahn between Karower Kreuz and Mühlenbeck-Mönchmühle, and regional trains between Hohen Schönhausen and Mühlenbeck-Mönchmühle dotted? There are already both tracks and trains here, and also double tracks (except for a short strech of S-Bahn near Karower Kreuz) so I don't really understand what they refer to.

Interesting that they have the Siemensbahn on the map!

Why are there some kind of plan to build a tram line almost following the S1? Seems like a questionable place to build a tram line. It also seems questionable to build a tram line to Ostbahnhof.


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## zk000

^^And where is the U-Bahn extension map?


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## tunnel owl

MiaM said:


> Re S-Bahn to Falkensee:S-Bahn to Falkensee seems like one way to free up the mainline tracks ("Fehrnbahngleis") for other services. What plands do DB have here? I.E. do they want to run more ICE services Berlin-Hamburg, more regional services, more freight trains (do any non-neglible amout of freight trains run Falkensee - Spandau), or?


DB AG plans to make ICE-trains more accurate and to relieve RE-trains. RE trains come from far outside Berlin and are packed with people between Nauen and Berlin. Freight trains do not really matter, they mainly run between BAR (Berliner Außenring) and Nauen. And yes, it would be possible to run more ICE-trains in future.



MiaM said:


> Is it known if the crossover between Finkenkrug and Brieslang has or hasn't room for at least one additional track? If there is room for one track more there, S-Bahn to Nauen seems like a good idea. That would either require expensive flyovers or more likely crossing on the flat for the northwestern and northeastern curves at that crossing though. It seems like RE6 is the only passenger train using the northeastern curve, and that train might in the future run through rebuildt mainline tracks throgh Tegel anyways.


Between Spandau and Finkenkrug space was left for additional S-Bahn-tracks at the northern side. There is nothing done there way down to Brieselang and Nauen, so you would have to interfer with the BAR-crossings, building flyovers or something similar. S-Bahn to Nauen would be a very long distance for trains stopping at each station so DBAG recently brought the idea of a skip-stop-system with express-trains. There is a bottleneck between Spandau and the next station planned, called Nauener Straße. Buildings are very near the tracks and at the moment it is planned to have a single-track sollution at this point. This would make the whole project with additional express-service somewhat complicated and could easily cause delays.



MiaM said:


> Once upon a time there were S-Bahn tracks next to the mainline tracks between Jungfernheide and Spandau. Would it be feasable to rebuild S-bahn there, to make it possible to have an express service to Spandau and further to Falkensee?


There have never been extra tracks for S-Bahn there. The S-Bahn-service there (finished in 1980) was installed relatively late in 1951 on the existing Fernbahn-tracks, like it was done the same year by east-german DR with Falkensee, Düppel and Strausbergs S-Bahn. It was a "quick and dirty" solution at that time. Building additional S-Bahn-tracks would really make no sense anymore. Maybe you are some minutes faster than U7 between Spandau and Jungfernheide but you pass by only indutrial and rural areas.



MiaM said:


> Maybe a crazy idea:
> Another way to get local/regional trains to Nauen, freeing up capacity on the mainline tracks, would be to reactivate the old Wustermark-Nauen line. Unfortunitely it connects to the tracks on the north side at Wustermark while the regional trains stops between Wustermark and Spandau are on the southern side of the non-stopping tracks.


You mean the old tracks via Bredow-station? That´s not that crazy but today one would probably take the cheaper option to deviate the Nauen-service via the existing BAR to Wustermark. Anyway I often also thought, this would make sense. There is a strong oppostion in Falkensee against S-Bahn because people are afraid to take longer time for getting into Berlin than with RE. Surprisingly (or not) it´s the opposite with Bernau, where there is already S-Bahn. Bernau wants a 10-min-interval on S-Bahn and no additional RE-service. Imho itÂ´s the old thing, that you want what you are used to know. Bernau and Falkensee are more or less equally far away from the city.


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## tunnel owl

MiaM said:


> Re U-Bahn to "Weißensee":
> I think using the name Weißensee is kind of derailing the discussion. Of course the current and any proposed line would pass near Weißensee, but the real destination is Wartenberg and Hohenschönhausen.



Not exactly. The proposed line should reach Hohenschönhausen/Wartenberg and Malchow/Karow/Blankenburg. The latter one can be seen as the last reserve for large scale-housing projects in Berlin (except the TXL-area when it´s maybe closed one day)





MiaM said:


> That leaves us with what will happen at Wartenberg - Hohen Schönhausen in the future. Today both Wartenberg and Hohen Schönhausen is served by S75 with 10-min-service most of the day. Hohen Schönhausen also sees some less frequent regional trains going to Ostkreuz (and further out to the southeast in some cases). It also seems like the plan is to not run the S75 on the Stadtbahn through the city centre.
> 
> No wounder that people in Wartenberg and Hohen Schönhausen takes the M4 tram instead of the S75 or reginal trains, as the tram goes directly to the central areas without change, runs more often and for most people there is a tram stop nearer than the S-Bahn stations.



...and in addition travel-times are comparable between S-Bahn and M4. The whole S-Bahn-thing to Wartenberg was thought as part of an tangential S-Bahn between Oranienburg and Schönefeld. It is clearly not the most attractice branch and people in Hohenschöhausen complain, that their service will be cut back to Ostkreuz or Ostbahnhof. But itÂ´s already a matter of capacity on Stadtbahn-tracks 






MiaM said:


> But to be honest, I don't see any real problem with just running longer trams and increasing the frequency



I see many problems on that relation, not only with longer trams. This is the tram-line with the highest demand in Berlin, but even on this route the capacity is still near the half of that of an average Berlin U-Bahn-line. If you talk to serious tram-operators at BVG they focus on running 50m long trams every 3-4 minutes in future and they say that this is the end of possibilities. Bottelnecks are crossings with pedestrians at Alexanderplatz or other tramlines And if you talk to people living in WeiÃŸensee nearly everyone will tell you that this city-near district is far behind the development of Pankow or Prenzlauer Berg. It could be even more which historically never happend as the metro is foreseen for more than 100 years



Let me say it that way: If one day the areas around Malchow, Karow and Blankenburg will be used for housing-projects, M4 is not enough anymore. And 30 years back in the GDR they already build the sourrounding infrastructure for large-scale housing (sewerage-plant at Schönwalde, Arkenberge power-connection etc.). It simply makes sense to build housing there instead of spreading the people further outside of Berlin. And therefore a U-Bahn to Weißensee would make sense, wether there is maybe a cheaper alternative via U9 from Osloer Straße.


The discussion often went wrong as it was seen necessary to substitute M4 by U-Bahn. I know an university-study about an U-Bahn to Weißensee and further north with less stations (Alexanderplatz-Am Friedrichshain-Danziger Straße-S Greifswalder Straße-Antonplatz-Buschallee-Weißensee) and M4 for local service. Nowadays I saw examples in Milan and Helsinki that it could be complementary and not a substution to run U-Bahn and tramway. As stations are a main mattter of costs, the U-Bahn to Weißensee could be build less expensive.


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## tunnel owl

MiaM said:


> Re Märkisches Vierteil:
> How about BOTH extending U8 and M1? It actually seems like a good idea to route M1 to Wittenau. Sure, the U8 takes you to Alexanderplatz but S1 and S26 takes you to Friedrischstraße afaik faster, so chainging at Wittenau doesen't seem like such a bad idea anyways.



Running to M1 to Wittenau is no good idea. Today all bus-lines from MV run to Wittenau, from there people travel further with S- or U-Bahn. If you extend M1, bus-services would have to run parallel with tram to reach Wittenau-station. This would make the tram not profitable anymore.



It´s a shame, that since 50 years so much people have to do this bus-ride every day. This is one of the biggest post-war settlements with highrise-blocks (Plattenbau) without direct connection to the city. Try this for more than one year and we talk back about changing at Wittenau


U-Bahn is not slower than S-Bahn on the stretch between Gesundbrunnen and Wittenau. Another thing not to forget is, that most people in MV want to reach the western city around Zoologischer Garten, so they take to option bus-U8 and U9 at Osloer Strasse.


Why not extending both U8 and tram? I don´t know why... stupid politics. It would make sense to extend U8 at least to the Märkisches Zentrum-area. This is the hot-spot of MV and the point every bus goes to. You could extend M1 from Rosenthal into this area, creating an interchange with U8. Tram could go further north to reach more of those housings around Senftenberger Ring. Of cause, this would be fine...


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## tunnel owl

MiaM said:


> Are there any plans on how a passenger station at Karower Kreuz could be made? S8 and RE5 uses curves here, and it seems like a bad idea to have platforms in curves. According to the map, the station is more needed than, and planned to be buildt before, any S-Bahn or extended regional trains between Karower Kreuz and Wartenberg. That makes platforms on curves, or straightening the curves, neccesary.



Maybe this helps, as though it is not new but I think still actual:
https://signalarchiv.de/Meldungen/10002625

You see, that only the S-Bahn to Bernau will get a stop at Karower Kreuz first. The lower level will be used as a stop for R/RE-trains but the northern platform there is also foreseen for e future S-Bahn from Wartenberg to Schönfließ. In the end this will finish then the long-term-planned tangential S-Bahn in the northern part. As you said, the single-track S-Bahn at Karower Kreuz branching of to Schönfließ is a result of the fact, that it was planned from the beginning to be not the final solution. So, the double-tracks begin after Karower Kreuz near the bridge over Bucher StraÃŸe. In the mid 80s it was planned to build large-scale housings there and they did minor prelimary works for two S-Bahn stations (Buchholz-Nord and Arkenberge) never finished.



MiaM said:


> It also seems questionable to build a tram line to Ostbahnhof.


If you ask tram-operator BVG they would prefer a tram-extension from Warschauer Straße to Ostbahnhof. M10 has a high demand with long trams and interval up to 5 minutes. You need a proper terminus for this line and in addition it would be possible to serve the uprising East-side area with the Mercedes-Benz-arena. There is plenty of space there for a terminus. But politics want to extend tram to Hermannplatz. It is like Brexit. It cannot be done reasonable without major damage but it must be done for ideologic reasons. Now they talk about a three-track terminus for 40 m long trams directly on the Hermannplatz, but inhabitants do not want it at all. 

S-Bahn to Gartenfeld, the Siemensbahn: Lately they announced an amount of 8.000 new housings to be build at the Wasserstadt Oberhavel, Gartenfeld and in Hakenfelde, added to the already build housings. This will lead to the question how to get those people into the city sufficient. It is unknown how DBAG thinks about reactivating the S-Bahn. As an alternative the S-Bahn right-of-way could be used for a tram.

Kind regards and sorry for splitting the answers in several posts but as the subjects are very different it makes it more easier to read (maybe)


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## tunnel owl

zk000 said:


> ^^And where is the U-Bahn extension map?



It is forbidden to think about any U-Bahn extension in politics. But everyone does, even parts of the actual left-wing government itself. Members of SPD and Green-party often ask about new U-Bahn extensions and all we can say is, that there is no command to work on it, based on the decision of their own party hno:


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## LtBk

Why is that? You think a center-left party would be more supportive of public transport.


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## bongo-anders

The situation is reversed in Copenhagen, here only the metro is cool and there is zero talk about extending the S-tog network even though capacity in the central section is pushed to the max.


----------



## TM_Germany

In Germany, the greens are literally the most useless greens on the planet. German greens are opposed to any and all construction projects (including high speed rail and subways) because they are just st*pid as f*ck. The only thing they *do* like are streetcars and cyclepaths. I think the "reason" that they hate subways is that they think if you put the traffic underground, traffic congestion might _decrease_ which could mean more people could get tempted to drive a car :nuts:


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## Danton05

bongo-anders said:


> The situation is reversed in Copenhagen, here only the metro is cool and there is zero talk about extending the S-tog network even though capacity in the central section is pushed to the max.


This thread isn't about Copenhagen, but this seems wrong to me. The new CBTC signals will provide for up to 40 trains per hour each way through the central section in a couple of years, which will be plenty of capacity. And there's always talk about converting some outer main line rail tracks to S-tog.

Years ago some guy had a university paper on a second central tunnel, but it didn't go anywhere mainly because it made no sense.


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## flierfy

LtBk said:


> Why is that? You think a center-left party would be more supportive of public transport.


To be supportive one needs to be able to spend money appropriately. But this is where all parties who governed the town in recent decades fall terribly short.
Berlin has a tight budget to start with. That would force a sensible administration to spend particularly wisely. But that is not the case as pet projects get funded first which leave even less money for the necessary projects. These necessary projects are then delayed or they get built on the cheap which more than often goes terrible wrong. Once they get over budget they eat even more funds which are then missing for other projects.
To make things short, Berlin is trapped in a vicious circle of political/administrative incompetence and a chronic lack of funds.


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## LtBk

Do you think it will get better in the future? Not the first city with similar problems.



TM_Germany said:


> In Germany, the greens are literally the most useless greens on the planet. German greens are opposed to any and all construction projects (including high speed rail and subways) because they are just st*pid as f*ck. The only thing they *do* like are streetcars and cyclepaths. I think the "reason" that they hate subways is that they think if you put the traffic underground, traffic congestion might _decrease_ which could mean more people could get tempted to drive a car :nuts:


Green on the outside, Red on the inside


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## LtBk

BTW, how would you rank Berlin's public transport system on a 0-10 scale?


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## Fatfield

LtBk said:


> BTW, how would you rank Berlin's public transport system on a 0-10 scale?


Personally I'd say 8/10 although I don't live there and my only experience is when I visit for a weekend to go to a football game with a German mate. Compared to my home city, Sunderland, England, its on a different planet. 

However, my mate believes Hamburg has the best public transport infrastructure in Germany.


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## TM_Germany

I'd say Berlin definitely has a better system than Hamburg. Hamburg's coverage is quite spotty and they don't have any streetcars at all. There are quite a few over congested Bus routes in Hamburg due to that. I'd pick Berlin over Hamburg any day with regards to public transport.


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## tunnel owl

ikarus280 said:


> It is a listed structure*. If they want to reopen it, they'll have to use the existing one. No matter if a tear-down and complete rebuild would be cheaper.
> 
> As I understand it, there is not even a discussion how to connect it - the northern ring is the natural choice.



To keep it clear. Despite maybe some parts of the old Wernerwerk and Siemensstadt-stations none of the structures could be used for train-service anymore. We are talking about tracks abandoned in 1980 and neglected in maintainance since 1961. Viaducts and bridges are rotten and have to be rebuild. The whole dam is covered with trees and has too steep inclines for modern traffic. But this is no real problem. The last decades showed several examples of re-inventing S-Bahn-lines or refurbishing U-Bahn viaducts with keeping listed buildings in mind. For example the whole southern S-Bahn-Ringwas rebuild in 1993 with paying attention on heritage buildings where possible. And it´s still not that expensive than a completely new line because the right-of -way is already there.


At Jungfernheide they rebuild the S-Bahn very simple with just one platform. The former S-Bahn-station including additional platforms for the Gartenfeld line was not good planned. But space is left for the addition of a northern platform and the Siemensbahn could be integrated. Crossing Spree-river at Jungfernheide one can spot the leftover of the additional S-Bahn-bridge.


Siemens wants to have a fast connection to the BER. Therefore a direct S-Bahn-connection via the Siemensbahn to Hbf. (S21) would be the best solution. Tramway would leave passengers again for transfer at Jungfernheide. And we have to consider that in the next decade about 40.000 to 50.000 people will live in Hakenfelde, Wasserstadt Oberhavel and Gartenfeld. This would justify a heavy-rail-line for a needed direct connection to the city.


Additional the whole Spandau-area would be ideal for an own tramway-system. Many cities like Madrid, Londen (Croydon) and Paris have build those tramway-lines in the suburbs. Tram could give the connection between Hakenfelde and Spandau-city. I would calculate 20-30 km useful tram-lines for the Spandau district. This is more than some german tram-systems do operate at present.


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## MiaM

How often/seldom is a listed building "de-listed"? At least here in Sweden buildings and other "denkmalschutz" stuff can get de-listed if there is a big enough need for it.

The problem with a tram system in Spandau is that you would probably need to build a rather large system at once to make it more than a novelty.


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## tunnel owl

MiaM said:


> How often/seldom is a listed building "de-listed"? At least here in Sweden buildings and other "denkmalschutz" stuff can get de-listed if there is a big enough need for it.



De-listed often comes from itself as the building collapses after a dozens of storms etc.:lol: But serious, Denkmalschutz can be delisted in Berlin, if the bridge/building is needed but can´t be refurbished. Actually the U6-bridge over Seidelstraße is in process of beeing de-listed. It´s a precast bridge of a type, that can´t be renovated (no possibility to subsitute the steel-cables for precasting) and in addition it could collapse without years in advance of warning. In this case BVG and the Denkmalschutzbehörde have to stuck together for a solution. In case of Seidelstraße-bridge it will be a modern steel-arch-bridge having nothing in common with the predecessor. I´m pretty sure, that as part of the deal BVG has to commit for more "Denkmalschutz" at other buildings. That´s how it works...


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## Skalka

An island network of the Berlin tramway in Spandau is the only real deal for the overall network to go west. There may have been some extensions and I was actually cherished to use the tram to arrive at Berlin Hauptbahnhof late at night just this year. But let's face it, a real tram reconquista in former West Berlin needs an organic nucleus to grow into an all-Berlin network that feels like a real deal.

First of all, Spandau is a true urban core and is especially defined by its nearby waters and offers enough room for a tram depot that the West yet desperately lacks. And once you have a western tramway, you can seriously talk about meshing into the core of western Berlin as you can actually expand from two directions. Siemensstadt and what will become of Tegel Airport are obvious candidates. 

Then you may look for candidates extending to Zoo Station, like an extension from Virchow-Klinikum via S Beusselstraße and TU Berlin and even from Spandau, mimicking an erstwhile planned extension of line U2 to Spandau that just won't happen in reality. 

Then you've grown the tramway considerably enough into former West Berlin that the extension of M4 into Steglitz won't look too alien anymore as you've got a lot more lines to mesh it with in the future. With a reconquista from northwest to southwest and a new depot somewhere around Steglitz, crossing the whole south into the east becomes a distinct possibility. I remember there's a bridge over the Spree River that's been there for years and still begs for the eastern tram to crossover to Hermannplatz in Neukölln.


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## ikarus280

Skalka said:


> I remember there's a bridge over the Spree River that's been there for years and still begs for the eastern tram to crossover to Hermannplatz in Neukölln.


You're talking about Oberbaumbrücke. The rails have been placed there in the 90s and would need replacement in case of a realization. However, this project is now quite high on the priority list. The problem is the controversy about crossing Görlitzer Park.

BTW, the Massantebrücke, built in 2003 over the Teltowkanal along Stubenrauchstraße, is also waiting for a tram track: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste...File:Straßenbahn_Berlin_Stubenrauchbrücke.JPG. It would be an extension of the Johannisthal branch.


----------



## metro-world

*Berlin transport plannings*



ikarus280 said:


> You're talking about Oberbaumbrücke. The rails have been placed there in the 90s and would need replacement in case of a realization. However, this project is now quite high on the priority list. The problem is the controversy about crossing Görlitzer Park.
> 
> BTW, the Massantebrücke, built in 2003 over the Teltowkanal along Stubenrauchstraße, is also waiting for a tram track: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste...File:Straßenbahn_Berlin_Stubenrauchbrücke.JPG. It would be an extension of the Johannisthal branch.


well I see many foreigners discussing about Berlin Plannings and compare this with other cities like Hamburg and Munich. I follow this since over 40 years now and can say Munich is unique because they had a special financing system which provided the possibility to build in one generation a 100 km system. 
Hamburg and Berlin have this not. Hamburg lost his continous planning by stopping the planes for U4 in 1973/73 by politicans.
Berlin is sincee the early century only a club of politican talkings and place to set friends in official government places - but no actions!https://www.skyscrapercity.com/images/smilies/bash.gif
"high priority" means not a soon start as a soon start of talking!
I saw many plans for extensions of U-Bahn and Tram since but only a very few were realized - but much talked about! The current Senate wanted to extend the Tram - but what were done yet? the only with a real chance are 3 projects but they not yet started and will not do within a near time.
nearly all projects in discussion now are not new.
How lont U-Bahn construction takes you can see with U5 - close 9 years for only 2,6 km! but sure it is a complicate work - but other European cities does much more in 9 years.
Another example is extending the S-Bahn and Regionalbahn in Berlin - Brandenburg. Now they found a continous growth in ridership since the last 3 years and say - we must do some! a new Programm I2030 for improvement. this means up to 2021 just plannings! "and before 2030 no new service is possible" because of construction... what of the most important sections Spandau - Falkensee, Stammbahn and Nordbahn - Velten was not studied during the recent 15 years to need now new studies?? the plannings in Infrastructure upgrading are more or less clear - what is needed is a decisssion on which the politicans seems to be not able! more ridership is just a quesion to place nore trains - not so in the infrastructure upgrading!
there are some conflict points - but this are known for a long time - and needs also to decide how to solve! This is all.
And what S-Bahn does with passengers - when they change tracks - the line is closed for a week or longer - and this always for several parts. I think some of this work can be done by current technics more fast and efficient to eleminate the long closing time - and closing for new signal system? also for U-Bahn?? can such work not done during the night when no service is running?
Finally the problems in German Rail. Since the Mehdorn era the German rail was going down and is not possible to reach former part now because of lucking eleminated important parts (passing tracks) and lucking of personal - traindrivers and underinvestment in maintenance for 20 years now.


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## Svartmetall

^^ Amsterdam. North-South tunnel. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam_Metro#North–South_line_(Route_52). 

2002 - 2018. 40% over budget. This project is quite similar to that of Berlin given the construction complexities. 

It ain't just Berlin.


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## metro-world

*Berlin*



Svartmetall said:


> ^^ Amsterdam. North-South tunnel.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam_Metro#North–South_line_(Route_52).
> 
> 2002 - 2018. 40% over budget. This project is quite similar to that of Berlin given the construction complexities.
> 
> It ain't just Berlin.


not correct - Amsterdam had a accident stopping the construction for some years and large under river tunnel etc. can't compare with Berlin.

the intersection of lines 5/6 was complicate to build -and Rathaus is in fact a 2-level station for 2 lines..


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## Svartmetall

metro-world said:


> not correct - Amsterdam had a accident stopping the construction for some years and large under river tunnel etc. can't compare with Berlin.
> 
> the intersection of lines 5/6 was complicate to build -and Rathaus is in fact a 2-level station for 2 lines..


Given how waterlogged the ground is in Berlin, it might as well have been under a river. Building tunnels under waterways is not necessarily that complex - Stockholm built Citybanan very quickly by comparison thanks to the fact that it is mostly through rock despite having two tunnels through the archipelago, two very complex stations at Odenplan (the green line and new yellow line of the metro system are there) and at T-centralen, where there is the blue line, green line and red line groups present. Not to mention passing by Gamla Stan.


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## lechevallierpatrick

I don't think it is fair to compare Berlin with other cities regarding transportation.Let's not forget that Berlin was isolated in the Sowjetzone for 28 Years!As far as I know Berlin is the only city in the world that had 2 Transport companies (BVB/BVG)with no possibilities to be connected.As for the S-Bahn (one of the best in the world prior to 1939) it was run by the Eastgerman DR in westberlin also and boycotted in Westberlin.It was a desaster and almost in ruins in the westernpart of the city.Trams were also eliminated in westberlin in 1967(a big mistake) etc,etc...und so weiter und sofort! Compared to Hamburg or Munich Berlin did not have it easy!


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## Svartmetall

^^ Well, having two transport companies is not really a reason – KCR and MTR in Hong Kong existed side-by-side for a long time. This is also without even considering the complexity in Japan with a plethora of different companies running transport within one city.


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## Stuu

Svartmetall said:


> ^^ Well, having two transport companies is not really a reason – KCR and MTR in Hong Kong existed side-by-side for a long time. This is also without even considering the complexity in Japan with a plethora of different companies running transport within one city.


Fairly certain KCR and MTR weren't representatives of two different ideologies facing each other with actual thermonuclear weapons, so not a great comparison. Although as that was 29 years ago now it is less of an excuse than before


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## Svartmetall

Stuu said:


> Fairly certain KCR and MTR weren't representatives of two different ideologies facing each other with actual thermonuclear weapons, so not a great comparison. Although as that was 29 years ago now it is less of an excuse than before


Well of course, but the idea that two companies that are unable co-exist without connections between the two being a source of Berlin's transport woes is a bit far-fetched. The entire British railway system (and many others) evolved out of disparate and unconnected monopolies by private companies. The division of the city has of course left scars, but the current policies and/or failings cannot simply be blamed on such a situation.


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## Skalka

ikarus280 said:


> You're talking about Oberbaumbrücke. The rails have been placed there in the 90s and would need replacement in case of a realization. However, this project is now quite high on the priority list. The problem is the controversy about crossing Görlitzer Park.
> 
> BTW, the Massantebrücke, built in 2003 over the Teltowkanal along Stubenrauchstraße, is also waiting for a tram track: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste...File:Straßenbahn_Berlin_Stubenrauchbrücke.JPG. It would be an extension of the Johannisthal branch.


I see I almost mixed up the two. I don't remember Massante Bridge to be so down south. 

Then again, the Oderbaum Bridge crossing the Spree River says a lot about the awkward nature of Warschauer Straße station. Nobody believes in an eastern underground extension of U1/U3 to Frankfurter Straße (U5) envisioned for generations and Ostkreuz as the alternative final destination sounds great for me. And Hermannsplatz at U7/U8 and the historic mega-Karstadt feels like it should be a natural checkpoint between West Berlin subway and East Berlin tramway and this won't work unless with transit through Warschauer Straße.

Massante Bridge between Johannisthal and Rudow (where U7 currently ends) sounds mighty all in itself, however. There's a metrobus running through Berlin's deep south. That's the perfect connection for a tramway.


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## lechevallierpatrick

Svartmetall said:


> Well of course, but the idea that two companies that are unable co-exist without connections between the two being a source of Berlin's transport woes is a bit far-fetched. The entire British railway system (and many others) evolved out of disparate and unconnected monopolies by private companies. The division of the city has of course left scars, but the current policies and/or failings cannot simply be blamed on such a situation.


.Let's not forget that some of the allied forces in Berlin dismantled 100 of miles of railway tracks sent to their country for war reparations.THey were never rebuilt because of the Border around Westberlin!
Actually I think that the rebirth of Berlin's transport system occurred around 1990 far behind Hamburg and Munich.....


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## 00Zy99

lechevallierpatrick said:


> .Let's not forget that some of the allied forces in Berlin dismantled 100 of miles of railway tracks sent to their country for war reparations.THey were never rebuilt because of the Border around Westberlin!
> Actually I think that the rebirth of Berlin's transport system occurred around 1990 far behind Hamburg and Munich.....


100 miles IN BERLIN?

I'm pretty sure that that would mostly be the Soviets when it comes to War Reparations, since the WAllies would have taken any rail from the Ruhr, if any, and the US would have supplied rail for itself and the UK (why exactly would you spend a fortune shipping steel across the ocean to the world's biggest steel producer?), and possibly France as well during the war.

After the Wall went up, though, quite a bit of trackage became isolated and worthless. That's when lines like the ones reaching through the south towards Anhalter Bahnhof were shut down.


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## lechevallierpatrick

Sorry for the mistake,certainly not 100 miles...but many kilometers...not to mention the many subway cars taken back east...All this never happened in large West German cities....That's why I don't think it is fair to compare Berlin's transport system with Munich or Hamburg.


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## TM_Germany

Yeah but everything that was mentioned are just excuses. Look how explosively Madrid's Metro system expanded in the last 30 years. Berlin could have done the same, if the political will was there.


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## metro-world

*Berlin transport plannings*



Skalka said:


> I see I almost mixed up the two. I don't remember Massante Bridge to be so down south.
> 
> Then again, the Oderbaum Bridge crossing the Spree River says a lot about the awkward nature of Warschauer Straße station. Nobody believes in an eastern underground extension of U1/U3 to Frankfurter Straße (U5) envisioned for generations and Ostkreuz as the alternative final destination sounds great for me. And Hermannsplatz at U7/U8 and the historic mega-Karstadt feels like it should be a natural checkpoint between West Berlin subway and East Berlin tramway and this won't work unless with transit through Warschauer Straße.
> 
> Massante Bridge between Johannisthal and Rudow (where U7 currently ends) sounds mighty all in itself, however. There's a metrobus running through Berlin's deep south. That's the perfect connection for a tramway.



Well let's come back to the main problem - it is not correct to write now about the former time of splitting Berlin up to 1989. this is now history! the following 12 years were taken to rebuild most of the interrupted S- and U-Bahn lines. this was done about 15 years ago - but since then no much were done as talking!! and some rebuilding lucking up today and will not come in the next 10 years! this means the rebuilding of Nord Line for regional service as well as the Stammbahn in Zehlendorf and S-Bahn extensions to Falkensee and Velten.
also U9 to Lankwitz and U5 to Turmstrasse as well as U2 north to Pankow. We will not talk about the lucking U10 on which several stations were build in the past and U3 to Weißensee as well as the new U11 to Marzahn.

So Yes you can compare Berlin Transport with other cities! and always Berlin will loose by that!

You can't compare directly Berlin to other cities in view to ground condition.
here we have sand and what worked in others to reduce the water level for construction can't done in central because of the wood foundation of the historic buildings there. This got some demage during the construction of the S-Bahn Tunnel in the 1930th by taking down the water level. Running tunnels are by shield more or less easy but the stations in open are complicate and time consuming!
and the long planning process is a big problem means a new project takes about 15 years to plan get approval and construct - and don't forgot the opposition and court in that! it seems that every public project gets an opposition houlding the process.

There are some places with tramway tracks layed for future lines which probably never will come! Now a discussion started about establishment of gates to eleminate the black-ridership. they have really other problems as that! another example is Zehlendorf S-Bahn station - now they discuss since years about the size etc of a second entrance to the station!
I can write some more examples like that..... the politicans are unable to decide!

Berlin is in fact a big administration and taking morass!
(even it is my nations Capital)


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## tunnel owl

metro-world said:


> Berlin is in fact a big administration and taking morass!
> (even it is my nations Capital)



Don´t be so shy, many peolpe don´t like their capital.



Remember: This city faced problems after reunification and is still facing problems you luckily never know in your beloved, arrogant and comfortable western parts of Germany where nothing worse really happened during the last two decades. 



I am totally pi__ed off about that Berlin morass-story. People like you probably also blame italians and greek people as the morass of Europe because of Euro-crisis. I hate that arrogance.


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## MiaM

Wilhem275 said:


> The new map is very nice - but it should include tram lines as well. It should be a surface lines map, not a bus-only map.


Agree, but I'd like to add that it should also have the S+U lines, perhaps in some faint color.

The night lines just makes the map messy, especially as it has the night lines which replaces the U-bahn lines at night, but it still doesen't show the U-bahn lines. It also actually doesen't state if any of the day bus lines runs at night, and if so which. It would be better if the night lines had a separate map, at least the PDF versions.

The arrows for the night busses around Hackesher Markt makes it messy. They should line up the arrows so it's super clear that they indeed affect all lines passing by Memhardstraße or Rosa-Luxemburg-Platz.



tunnel owl said:


> The reinvention of Heidekrautbahn is still far away. At least this year they should start construction at Wilhelmsruh-station because planning-approval has already been accepted 5 years ago. But that´s all.


What is that planning approval about? Is it for an extra platform and/or the missing rail bridge over Kopenhagener Straße and/or connection of the Heidekrautbahn to the existing station? Or something else?

(There are already "Fernbahn" tracks in place up to the diversion between the Nordbahn and the Kremmener Bahn, afaik mainly used for freight trains to/from the Tegel area)



tunnel owl said:


> They still don´t have a clue to solve the crossing with tram M1 at Rosenthal. Imho it would make sense anyway to put the Heidekrautbahn into a short cut at Quickborner Straße and Wilhelmsruher Damm if we talk about urbanrail served at a 30-Min. interval in future. At grade-crossing for tram and this passenger-rail is somewhat sillly to build nowadays and it´s not legal in Germany anymore.


Isn't M1 another separate question here? It currently terminates right before the Heidekrautbahn so if M1 won't be extended it doesen't need any attention related to the Heidekrautbahn. Also if road traffic can cross the railway, so can the M1. I agree though that it would be a good idea to have a grade separated crossing. Not sure if a cutting for the railway or bridges for the roads would be best though.

There is a lot of unused space to the southwest side of the Heidekrautbahn between Quickborner Straße and Wilhelmsruher Damm , and those two roads anyway joins to the south/east of the Heidekrautbahn, so in theory only one road crossing could be sufficient, or rather one grade separated crossing and one crossing at grade, so instead of stuck waiting for the train to pass, the traffic can temporary divert to the other crossing.

But IMHO this is a road issue, as the Heidekrautbahn will surely reduce road traffic a bit by relocating some of the journeys to the Heidekrautbahn.

Btw is 30-min really good enough here? It seems like that the bus lines in the area usually run at a 20-min interval, probably to be in sync with the S-Bahn lines.

Anyway, the station location should obviously be between Quickborner Straße and Wilhelmsruher Damm. A cutting together with a really wide platform would have the benefit of easilly providing grade-separated station entrances to both sides of both those roads.

Anyway, there are a bunch of other crossings between the Heidekrautbahn and various roads on the same level. Are there any statistics available for all these? For examle the 96a crosses on the flat at Schildow.


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## MiaM

tunnel owl said:


> https://www.i2030.de/
> 
> Nice overview about what is to discuss in terms of improving rail-connections between Berlin and it´s suburbia.


I agree that it's nice but it really doesen't provide any detail at all. It can of course not predict the future and thus can't say much about what options would be taken, but it sure could link to all existing investigations and state some of the facts, like for example where grade separated crossings would have to be (re)built, where it's "only" a matter of making an extra track bed and lay out tracks e.t.c.



tunnel owl said:


> The Falkensee-corridor:
> Still not clear if S-Bahn willl be extended or rail will be improved. If S-Bahn would come, the new idea is born to create a branch to the Falkenhagener Feld housing-complex in Spandau


Isn't that branch idea something that were vented even a few years ago?

A political problem here is that people west of Spandau who wants regional services rather than S-Bahn might lobby for that S-Bahn branch to be buildt, or at least lobby enough to case confusion about possible S-Bahn extensions.



tunnel owl said:


> Heidekrautbahn:
> As already mentioned


It also includes Nordbahn, in particular the Birkenwerder station. They want to separate the S-Bahn from the regional lines.

See also:
http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/voltage_berlin.php



tunnel owl said:


> Velten:
> S-Bahn could be extended but it´s still not clear if S-Bahn tracks should be shared with the Prignitz-Express (diesel regional-train) from Velten to Gesundbrunnen. DBAG and S-Bahn is not a friend of this shared pattern of operation.


Why are they against sharing the tracks? Is it sonething else besides the obvious risks of delays spreading?

It at least seems like a better idea to share two tracks for both S-Bahn and other services, than having a single track for S-Bahn and a single track for other services.

If the regional line would be electrified I totally see why they don't want to share lines from a technical point of view. Nowdays the best solution in that case would probably to use trains similar to those of the Hamburg S-Bahn and those used in some parts of south eastern England (for example Thameslink) which can operate both from DC third rail and AC overhead line, and electrify the line up to Henigsdorf/Velten with third rail and switch over to overhead line for the regional-line only part of the line.

But there won't be much of an express if they should share the lines though.

Btw, how about rebuilding the Fernbahn-tracks between on the Nordbahn from Gesundbrunnen up to Birkenwerder, and build a short completely new line connecting somewhere north of Frohnau on the Nordbahn to the Kremmener Bahn somewhere around the cross between Kremmener Bahn and the BAR? That would mainly involve buying farm lands, of course a grade separated crossing where it connects to the Nordbahn (mainly to not cross the S-Bahn tracks on the flat), a grade separated crossing of the A111, L171 and possible some other roads, perhaps some rerouting of existing minor roads, a bridge over the water and whatever grade separated crossing required to link up to the Kremmener Bahn.

A variation of this could be to connect it as just described north of Frohnau, but instead run it to Hennigsdorf, passing the south edge of the former West Berliner toll station on the A111, near the north edge of Stolpe Süd, crossing the S-Bahn and then using a new bridge to the southwest of the existing S-Bahn bridge over the water, coming up to platform 3/4 at Hennigsdorf.

That might actually even be shorter than running regional trains on the existing track bed / line stretch between Hennigsdorf and Schönholz. Connecting it at the BAR/Kremmener Bahn crossing would surely make a far faster connection than using the existing Kremmener bahn through Tegel. It seems like a bad idea to not connect to Hennigsdorf though.



tunnel owl said:


> Schulzendorf-Tegel would stay single-track because of the nearby motorway and this section seems to be not suitable for accurate operation of both, S-Bahn and regional train.


It seems like this section is prepared for a second track though, with mostly some bridge spans missing. There is a good drivers view video on Youtube of this line, recorded back in the days when that line reopened in the late 90's. It's super clear that there is room for two tracks all the way but they didn't invest in all required infrastructure.



tunnel owl said:


> Rangsdorf:
> Extension of S-Bahn


I assume that if the S-Bahn would be extended to Rangsdorf, at least Dahlewitz would lose it's regional stop.

It also suggest a region stop at the Buckower Chaussee station, when the regional trains can start using that line again.



tunnel owl said:


> Potsdam/Stahnsdorf:
> Extension of S-Bahn to Stahnsdorf and discussion, if the so called Stammbahn should be reinvented as S-Bahn or Regionalbahn. The southern portal of the North-South-railwaytunnel has already provisions made for the Regionalbahn, whereas the Julius-Leber-Brücke S-Bahn-station is foreseen to be extended for further S-Bahn-service


It also mentions an extension from Teltow Stadt to Stahnsdorf. Would it be a bad idea to continue up from Stahnsdorf to Dreilinde, perhaps with a "Dreieck"?

I'd say that it seems like a far better idea to rebuild the Stammbahn instead of rebuilding regional tracks between Wannsee and Zehlendorf.


The general part about S-Bahn seems like something you'd hear on a documentary about a board meeting in North Korea ("we need to build new power plants"). Although technically correct and a list of nice suggestions, it doesn't really provide any information at all. Like who whould had missed that there were a war and later a wall dividing West Berlin from it's surrounding areas, and that the railways suffered due to this? :bash:


The part about RE1 doesn't really provide much information, except that it points out that the height and length of the platforms differs. However it doesen't detail any data of the stations involved. More important it doesen't say anything about what might happen with RE1 if the regional line through Zehlendorf would be rebuildt. It also doesen't say much about where the capacity increase is mostly needed, except that it hints something about "Netzes Elbe-Spree".


There is also a part about improvements in Königs Wusterhausen, with suggestions about removing a single track bottle neck in the northern part of Könings Wusterhausen and installing a siding. Good ideas. Not much to comment here.


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## ikarus280

Tomorrow (Friday) the BVG employees who are union members (most of them) go on a warning strike between 03:30 am and 12 pm. This means that there is almost no tram, bus and underground service. The only exceptions are a few bus lines that are operated by sub contractors near the city limits. The S-Bahn will run some extra trains on S1 and S5, but in general S-Bahn, regional trains and streets are expected to be jammed.

Just to be clear: despite me having to walk some distance tomorrow, I sympathise with the BVG employees. I'm a union member myself and we currently are also fighting for better conditions. For Berliners: BVG = TV-N, me = TV-L.


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## Skalka

Strikes have to be done once in a while. It would be a miracle, however, if the BVG achieved what the factory workers at Audi Hungaria recently achieved: an 18 percent raise in salaries which is still not enough to achieve parity with collagues in the other V4 states. One would actually think that a motor factory would actually offer the best salaries in a compound because they can most critically flex their muscles and cripple the entire supply chain. Which they eventually did.

Anyway, if you're a transit nerd and use an Android phone, they give you personalized news on your feed and you read about how S1 and S7 between Berlin and Potsdam experienced disturbances and that's even right before the strike at the BVG which will overload DB vehicles. And if they talk about "new" extensions, you start to yawn again and again because you already know this stuff. Even if you live way on the other end in the Federal Republic.


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## ikarus280

Skalka said:


> Strikes have to be done once in a while. It would be a miracle, however, if the BVG achieved what the factory workers at Audi Hungaria recently achieved: an 18 percent raise in salaries which is still not enough to achieve parity with collagues in the other V4 states. One would actually think that a motor factory would actually offer the best salaries in a compound because they can most critically flex their muscles and cripple the entire supply chain. Which they eventually did.


Last year bus drivers in Okayama/Japan went on strike. What they did was offering the regular service, but refusing to accept the fare, thus hurting their employer, but not the common people.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/...s-drivers-strike-by-giving-free-rides-okayama

I like this, but it wouldn't work in Berlin: too many people have monthly tickets.


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## tunnel owl

ikarus280 said:


> I'm a union member myself and we currently are also fighting for better conditions. For Berliners: BVG = TV-N, me = TV-L.



I´m a union member, too but I had to do on-call-duty this time. Well, it will probably not the last day of BVG-strike. At the moment we do not find any new personal e.g. drivers, engineers. The fares are too low but it´s the same in other german cities.


I´m not a fan of strike if it comes to passenger needs and we tried to get into operation again about 11:30 AM. It was hard, because for the first time, strike started at the beginning of operation around 3:45 AM. This means that not enogh stuff was there to start operation. Some colleagues like me went on a service train to open stations. It would have been better to interrupt service for 3 hours, letting the stuff on trains as it was done in earlier strikes. Another point was: Normally we have 40sqm Graffiti on trains per day. In this 7 h we had 1.000 sqm of Graffiti attacks. No one there to catch someone. Not a good performance...


----------



## MiaM

Any decent pulblic transport have tax subsides, so fares shouldn't have to affect the staffs wages.


----------



## TM_Germany

^^Berlin's poblic transport is subsidized even though the city is broke.


----------



## Shenkey

Whole East Germany is subsidized.


----------



## ikarus280

Shenkey said:


> Whole East Germany is subsidized.


----------



## urbanflight

*Berlin Will Spend US$ 32 billion to Improve Public Transit*



> Berlin Will Spend €2 Billion Per Year to Improve Public Transit
> 
> The German capital plans to make major investments to expand bus and rail networks, boost frequency, and get ahead of population growth. Are you jealous yet?
> 
> When it comes to public transit, you can’t accuse Berlin of holding back on cash.
> 
> This week, the city announced its transit masterplan for 2019 to 2023 (with a period of focus that actually extends to 2035), and a major overhaul of the city’s transit networks is in the cards. The funds allocated are generous, to say the least: Berlin is committing a remarkable €28.1 billion, or just under $32 billion, to transportation projects.
> 
> That huge investment won’t all come in one burst, of course, but will be spread out over the years between now and 2035. That still means a phenomenal €2 billion every year pumped into the system until 2035, a level of consistent investment that would make the average American public transit official weep with envy.
> 
> Berlin’s spending on improving public transit has always been generous—last year, for example, the city pledged €1 billion for new subway trains. The promised level of investment is still remarkable, even in Europe. London’s Crossrail link, for example, is a major 74-mile heavy rail route due to open this autumn that has required the construction of new stations and new tunnels beneath the city core. Its initial budget was around $20 billion. The Grand Paris Express, a massive expansion of the French capital’s metro system into its suburbs that entails the opening of 65 new stations, will cost around $28 billion. Both projects are seen as remarkable, even grandiose transformations of the way their cities connect to their regions. Their funding still falls comfortably short of what Berlin plans to spend in a metro region that has far less than half the population of either London or Paris.
> 
> So what does $32 billion buy you in Berlin? A fair bit, it seems. The headline item from the masterplan is a massive expansion of the city’s streetcar network. For years now, Berlin’s trams have been spreading out from East Berlin—where the state retained them long after they were junked in the West. This trend is continuing, with major lines due in the western districts of Kreuzberg, Schöneberg, and Spandau. According to the plan, the city’s the network in 2035 will be 28 percent more extensive than it is now, with the length of its lines increasing from 194 kilometers to 267 kilometers. When complete, Berlin’s tram lines placed end to end would be enough to cover the distance between Houston and Austin. Trams on this expanded network will also be more frequent than they are currently, as a major expansion of the fleet will increase Berlin’s current number of trams by 38 percent.
> 
> There will also be significant extensions to the S-Bahn—the city rail network that, while running somewhat more commonly above ground and being somewhat more suburban in reach than the U-bahn, is actually quite difficult to tell apart from the subway in both function and frequency. Berlin’s new S-Bahn lines will be concentrated in the north and run mainly on a north-south axis. In a spirit of pragmatism, they won’t be newly constructed, but mainly consist of former railway lines that have been left unused in the past few decades.
> 
> Bus services will likewise get a complete overhaul. The plan calls for every bus in the city to be electric by 2030, while more lines will have their timetables packed to ensure a bus at least every 10 minutes. For far-flung parts of the bus network where stops and passengers are few, the city will also experiment with a hail-a-bus service, by which passengers in less-frequented areas can summon a mini-bus (hopefully within a short waiting time) by letting the depot know they’re there.
> 
> Other changes could be similarly transformative, but still require feasibility studies before exact plans are published. Chief among these are four proposed subway extensions, including U-Bahn lines out to both the new BER airport (if that ever opens) and to the old airport at Tegel, which is due to become a tech park when it is finally allowed to retire as a passenger terminal. Meanwhile there are some other rumblings of investigating whether it’s feasible to ship goods around the city using the tram network. All of this will come at a cost. Some of that cost will come from increased fares, which are scheduled to go up by 1.4 percent. Elsewhere, increased ridership should also provide some funds—not just from people using the new lines, but from the ongoing expansion of Berlin’s population, which by 2030 should rise to beyond 4 million from its current level of 3.63 million.
> 
> It’s no coincidence that Berlin—always a city with good public transit—is going big on these plans right now. The Green Party is currently part of the city’s ruling coalition, along with majority partner the center-left SPD and the left-wing Die Linke. It is pushing hard, (with encouragement from its partners) for greener ways of running the city. Armed with a sense of mission, the Green Party is currently trying to get the masterplan’s targets written into the city’s soon-to-be-renewed contract with its main public transit body BVG, so that its aspiration can’t be watered down by a subsequent administration.
> 
> That might be over-cautious, as polls suggest that Berlin continues overall to be a broadly left-leaning city. Indeed, if Berlin’s population does continue to grow at the rate projected for it, this major public transit expansion may increasingly seem like a necessity.


----------



## urbanflight

*Berlin’s largest bus fleet gets first of 225 fully-electric buses*






















> Berlin is now on the way to cleaner public transport, with the delivery of the first of 15 all-electric eCitaro buses from Mercedes-Benz for Berlin’s largest bus fleet, BVG.
> 
> The 15 electric buses from Mercedes-Benz will be joined in 2020 by 15 Urbino 12 articulated electric buses made by Poland’s Solaris, which jointly won a tender with the German auto giant in June, 2018.
> 
> “We are delighted that our eCitaro is now energising Berlin,” said Till Oberwörder, chief of Daimler Buses as he handed over the key for the first eCitaro in Berlin on Thursday.
> 
> “With the locally emission-free eCitaro, the BVG has opened up a new chapter in the story of environmentally-friendly mobility. Of particular importance to me, is the fact that we are also supporting our customer with tailored consultations and customised service packages as they gradually change over to electromobility.”
> 
> BVG chair Dr Sigrid Nikutta said: “We are improving the quality of life in Berlin. At present we have about a billion passengers annually and two-thirds of them are already transported electrically in the metro, on overground trams and on our solar-powered ferries.
> 
> “These first few series-production buses mark the start of changing our bus fleet to environmentally-friendly, electrically-driven vehicles.”
> 
> The transition to electric buses reinforces other measures to clean up Berlin’s air by reducing dangerous PM2.5 particulates and NOx levels emitted by diesel vehicles. In October 2018, the city of Berlin banned older diesel cars from driving in certain parts of the city.
> 
> The investment for the first 30 electric buses comes to 18 million euros ($A28.5 million), the company reports – and it is just the start.
> 
> With a goal to transition to the fleet to 100% electric by 2030, 225 electric buses have been planned so far, 15 of which will be articulated. Another 950 “low emissions” Citaro buses have also been ordered from Mercedes-Benz.
> 
> Overall, Berlin has earmarked 106 million euros ($A168 million) for BVG’s transition to zero emissions buses, 58 million ($A92 million) of which will be put to use by 2021, with a further 48 million euros ($A76 million) slated for 2022 and 2023.
> 
> The first 12-metre-long e-buses can seat around 65 passengers, are equipped with modern passenger information systems and a large multi-purpose area for passengers with wheelchairs, strollers, or luggage.
> 
> Unlike the an earlier generation of BVG electric buses, which are charged by induction at the terminal stops, the new eCitaro electric buses receive their energy via charging cable at the depot, providing a range of at least 150 kilometres and up to 250km in optimum conditions thanks to 10-pack, 243kWh battery modules in each bus.


----------



## ikarus280

urbanflight said:


>


So, the RNV has adopted the old East Berlin colour scheme?! :colgate:


----------



## Puss in Boots

Didn't they had it already? The orange bit at least. I know RNV vehicles had more orange stripes on them (at least one on each side), I guess these ones were not painted on their sides to let the design of the bus be visible.


----------



## Clery

Fantasy of a futuristic Berlin imagined in 1994.
Many trains everywhere.


----------



## tunnel owl

*New U-Bahn cars and better payment*

As nobody posted it here:


payment is increased for BVG-stuff about 8% for the next 2 years. This is a success and takes BVGers back to the medium german payment for public transport there they belong in terms of average german payments.


After alle finally since last Monday Stalder made it and will deliver up to 2.500 metro-cars unteil 2033. What we all feared was that the consortium Siemens/Bombardier would go to court, but they don´t. At least Alstom will do but personally I suppose it will give the whole process a hold of mabe 8 weeks or so.


First 24 cars (12 small and 12 big-profile) will arrive in 2021, than the next 76 in 2022 and from there on 138 each per year.


----------



## tunnel owl

*New cars for metro and better payment*

double post del.


----------



## dkzg

So, how many can earn now a new bus driver?


----------



## Kleist D

^ At the beginning ~ 2700 € gross + allowances. ( BVG = Berliner Verkehrsbetriebe ) There are more for experienced drivers.

Na początku ~ 2700 € brutto + dopłaty / google translator


----------



## tunnel owl

ikarus280 said:


> So, the RNV has adopted the old East Berlin colour scheme?! :colgate:



Little late but from what I know, this colour-sheme was (and partially is) still popular in many east european countries and even in western Europe (Metro Brussels e. g.). I remember that the intention was to make the front and the doors clearly visible for disabled people in contrast to pale white and orange/red was seen as a remarkable but still attractive colour. It was thought to be like a standard in former COMECON-countries and UITP probably took part in that development.


----------



## Darryl

So anything new on the progress of the new U55 stations? Any further setbacks/delays? Or still a go for opening in 2020?


----------



## flierfy

Darryl said:


> So anything new on the progress of the new U55 stations? Any further setbacks/delays? Or still a go for opening in 2020?


There are no U55 stations. What you mean are stations of the U5 extension,


----------



## BurnyB

Darryl said:


> So anything new on the progress of the new U55 stations? Any further setbacks/delays? Or still a go for opening in 2020?



The latest picures of the project that is a prologation of U5 and that connects to the it to the 3 existing stations of U55. These U55 Stations will be part of U5 after Opening



http://www.projekt-u5.de/de/bautagebuch/


You will find dated pictures here. The site exists in english too, but the german version has better documentation and the pictures will be found in order by the year they were taken


Opening is still expected in 2020 maybe early 2021. Critical path is station "Museumsinsel", that is beeing built in artificial frozen ground beneath the river Spree. An other possibility is that this station might open later


----------



## Lw25

Unexpected water level and freezing ground is one thing, but Warsaw had the same problems and since 2010 they did not constructed 3 stations under the river in also dampf ground (they even had a flooding of a tunel). They constructed 7 of them, opened them to the service, constructed 6 more to be opened in this and next year and are proceeding additonal 8 to be constructed and opened by 2022. I would say that planing and execution of that investment seems to be a bit under the standards. I like Berlin, so I hope there won't be any BER style problems in 2020/2021.


----------



## Darryl

@ flierfy - Sorry, yes I meant the 3 new U5 extension stations.

@ BurnyB - Thanks for that site. I was aware of it, but it is not updated and has outdated information.

@ Lw25 - Yes, this is what I'm getting at. I'm not an expert, but it does seem Berlin is super slow at development. It seems to take longer for projects to get completed in Berlin in comparison to other cities.

My main question and point was does anyone here have insider knowledge of delays, or do you think these stations will actually open on time in 2020 as the website says they will. Thats all. Thanks


----------



## LtBk

> @ Lw25 - Yes, this is what I'm getting at. I'm not an expert, but it does seem Berlin is super slow at development. It seems to take longer for projects to get completed in Berlin in comparison to other cities.


Which cities are you comparing to?


----------



## MiaM

Darryl said:


> I'm not an expert, but it does seem Berlin is super slow at development. It seems to take longer for projects to get completed in


In 1990 Berlin kind of already had the infrastructure for the amount of people who were living in Berlin just a while ago, so it's only recently that there has been any urgent need to build more things.

Btw, the timeline for the U5 extension seems to compare decently to for example Crossrail in London. Sure, Crossrail is a far larger project but the basic concept of building a decent sized tunnel infrastructure is similar.


----------



## Lw25

LtBk said:


> Which cities are you comparing to?



As I mentioned before, capital of a next country to the East constructed their second metro line in a similiar condidtion (freezing ground, dampf ground, under the river, even with flooding of the tunnel durring construction) few times faster than Berlin.


----------



## BurnyB

Darryl said:


> @ flierfy - Sorry, yes I meant the 3 new U5 extension stations.
> 
> @ BurnyB - Thanks for that site. I was aware of it, but it is not updated and has outdated information.
> 
> Yes, you are right most of the information on this site never changed since Project was startet.
> Exception:
> 
> Informations about project progress (Baufortschritt) mostly Pictures and visibl in german version only):
> http://www.projekt-u5.de/de/bautagebuch/2019/
> http://www.projekt-u5.de/de/bautagebuch/2018/
> 
> [...] years 2011 - 2017 [...]
> 
> http://www.projekt-u5.de/de/bautagebuch/2010/


----------



## Wilhem275

I wouldn't take Crossrail as a good time reference...


----------



## Lw25

Wilhem275 said:


> I wouldn't take Crossrail as a good time reference...



But Crossrail is definitely taking Berlin's investments as a role model :troll:


----------



## SSCwarrior

Why does Berlin seem to use the most primitive form of a ticket "checking" system?hno: Surely it is cheaper to fix permanent gantries at entrance and exits, rather than hire a group of people who go manually and randomly checking for people's tickets. And surely it is better to implement the 24h pass from the time of purchase. It was quite funny to see a group of American tourists behind getting caught for expired tickets and arguing that their 24h is not up as they purchased the pass at night


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## AlexNL

Germany as a whole seems to have an aversion towards ticket gates and such, they prefer an open system with spot checks. The same can be said for Austria and Switzerland.


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## Polak_w_Kanadzie

Same in Poland.


----------



## Lw25

Polak_w_Kanadzie said:


> Same in Poland.


Not really true. Only Subway network in Poland have gates on every station.

To be honest, after some time in Japan, I think gates are not that bad.


----------



## Polak_w_Kanadzie

Lw25 said:


> Not really true. Only Subway network in Poland have gates on every station.
> 
> To be honest, after some time in Japan, I think gates are not that bad.


Ah ok I thought we speak about random controls by fare inspectors.


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## Lw25

^^Well, Warsaw Metro uses both at the same time.


----------



## FDW

SSCwarrior said:


> Why does Berlin seem to use the most primitive form of a ticket "checking" system?hno: Surely it is cheaper to fix permanent gantries at entrance and exits, rather than hire a group of people who go manually and randomly checking for people's tickets. And surely it is better to implement the 24h pass from the time of purchase. It was quite funny to see a group of American tourists behind getting caught for expired tickets and arguing that their 24h is not up as they purchased the pass at night


PoP is actually cheaper than faregates these days. It also improves circulation at stations.


----------



## luacstjh98

FDW said:


> PoP is actually cheaper than faregates these days. It also improves circulation at stations.


That depends, if you draw a line on the ground and say "valid ticket beyond his point" like what Vancouver used to do, then it's really not much different from having faregates.

IIRC Berlin has the fare validation posts directly in the flow of traffic, but at some London and Tokyo train stations it's necessary to veer off to the validators at the side.


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## ssiguy2

Most of Vancouver's SkyTrain and even some of the busiest semi-express bus routes use PoP. The new triple articulated Toronto streetcars have them as well as it allows for all door entry/exit which greatly reduces dwell times and hence increases streetcar speed. 

Both system have fare checkers. There will always be people who cheat the system but the money the systems save by not having to hire ticket collectors more than makes up the difference.


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## TER200

Svartmetall said:


> Yes yes I understand that, but I thought the IK trains were 3 doors on the small profile lines already or am I wrong? If so, it seems odd to go back to 2 doors after having a 3 door model on them.


Yes, the previous modern small-profile trains (HK and IK), as well as the older West-Berlin small-profile trains, have 3 doors per car side. Only the former East-Berlin trasin (Gi) have 2 doors per face, and much disliked partly because of that.
Apparently, the doors will also keep the same width, 1,30 m.
The reason of this is economic, so the large-profile J and small-profile JK can share their doors, windows and side panel parts. 

A six-car large-profile train has about the same length as an eight-car small-profile train (about 100 m), for respectively 18 and 16 doors (and of course a smaller capacity for the later). Sounds more fair this way...


----------



## Svartmetall

Perfect, thank you for the information.


----------



## BillyF

Berlin Transport (Germany): U-Bahn, S-Bahn, Trams


The Berlin Metro (U-Bahn) in Germany was commissioned in 1902. The network includes 10 lines: U1, U2, U3, U4, U5, U55, U6, U7, U8 and U9. Lines U1 to U4 are ...




www.youtube.com


----------



## tunnel owl

TER200 said:


> Apparently, the doors will also keep the same width, 1,30 m.


Main thing because GI/1E-type trains are disliked is the fact, that people standing beneath the doors occupy the space for fluent passenger-traffic. So it´s not only the width of 1,30m having a serious impact but also the place near the doors. The new J/JK-series will have enough space beneath the doors, so that people standing there will not reduce the 1,30 m wide opening.

The G-type trains followed the original layout of the first small-profil-trains AI/AII (A1/A2) with only two doors. Main reasons for that (except cost-savings) have been two: Third rail collector coul be switched off by staff from hand standing in the opened door and the doors are above the bogies, so there is not much space between platform and door in tight curves.

Another discussion is to introduce CBTC on U5 and U8. If this happen it will have a serious effect on the fleet-management.


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## tunnel owl

U55 service was disrupted as the only line to be closed during the Corona-crisis, whereas schedules of other lines have been stretched to a 10-minute-interval. From 20.April to 4.May U-Bahn went back to it´s service-pattern before Corona and after a short discussion it was clear that U55 is to be closed forever. Originally in June final works will start for integration in the U5, and because of lack of tourists it simply makes no sense to put U55 bac kinto service for some weeks and close it again. So, there was no goodbye-ceremony for this obscure line and we will likely start U5 service before Christmas 2020 to Hautbahnhof.


----------



## Suburbanist

The cavernous stations at the Bundestag was quite fun, empty as it was on the 3 times I used it.


----------



## Skalka

tunnel owl said:


> U55 service was disrupted as the only line to be closed during the Corona-crisis, whereas schedules of other lines have been stretched to a 10-minute-interval. From 20.April to 4.May U-Bahn went back to it´s service-pattern before Corona and after a short discussion it was clear that U55 is to be closed forever. Originally in June final works will start for integration in the U5, and because of lack of tourists it simply makes no sense to put U55 bac kinto service for some weeks and close it again. So, there was no goodbye-ceremony for this obscure line and we will likely start U5 service before Christmas 2020 to Hautbahnhof.


Nice parallel to aircrift in my opinion. They're evaluating to "temporarily" close Tegel Airport (TXL) for two months from June 1st on due to Corona in order to save money. A temporary closure that would likely not remain temporary as Berlin Brandenburg International Airport (BER) is now ready to open anyway. The co-owners are the states of Berlin and Brandenburg besides the Federal Republic of Germany. The only resistance comes from the federal level in the person of traffic minister Andreas Scheuer from the CSU. Some commentators say that Scheuer is afraid that the business people may actually get used to video conferences even after Corona and, if meatspace is prefered after all, just take the railways that the CSU traffic ministers are supposed to hate for a passion and that keeping Tegel open as long as possible is just about anti-ecological ideology and nothing else. Tyrolean governor Plattner famously blocked non-motorway roads for transit drivers last summer so that Bavarian and other German politicians become less afraid of their NIMBYs that for a new comparable lockdown in order to finally complete the German connection to the Brenner Base Tunnel connection. Well, Peter Ramsauer (husband of a cousin of Julia Roberts, by the way), Alexander Dobrindt and Andreas Scheuer (those two almost look alike), the three last federal traffic minister all hail from the Bavarian CSU. But why? It's getting a bit off-topic, but it's ironic that two big Berlin projects get finished in 2020 and that Corona gives both of them almost the same positive twist.



Suburbanist said:


> The cavernous stations at the Bundestag was quite fun, empty as it was on the 3 times I used it.


It's not as if it's been lost forever. I was there in 2010 when I was actually in Berlin for two nights to meet people I got to know on the Internet. Yes, the stations look awesome, but this one waggon to ride seemed a bit facetious to me even back then. Berlin didn't want to pay back subsidies it received just for that U5, so the U55 had to be opened and that U5 will finally get finished. 

I've only got one wish for the future of Berlin transit: If this project called Urban Tech Republic that's supposed to supercede TXL is really required to deserve rapid transit on its own, stick to the U5 plans. Don't listen to guys that want a U65 as a bifurcation from the U6 just because you'd built it inexpensively overground. You will regret it if it's rush hour and central Berlin is more than just Friedrichstraße. I guess the idea of a U65 is from people that liked that pre-1984 (West Berlin S-Bahn handover) idea of a pure West Berlin U10 going from Bundesstraße 1 under the Tiergarten near the Berlin Wall via Lehrter Bahnhof (now Hauptbahnhof), Airport Tegel up north to cross U6 and U8 in northern West Berlin and were happy to see its northern parts become part of the U5 plans as of 1995 which they've ceased to be. It's almost as U65 would be its cheapest proxy. I'd say forget about it. The U5 would make a good trunk line for the Urban Tech Republic and so be it, direct east-west integration can be most sensibly done by tram from Rosenthal (via Reineckendorf with its MV) and Wedding in the east to Spandau in the west whose 200,000+ denizens already hit the threshold for an independent trams that would of course be built with all-Berlin parameters from the beginning.


----------



## tunnel owl

I´m sure that the shit of the bifurbication of U6 will never happen. Another option, and this is not very new, is to branch of from U7 at Jungfernheide. The whole station was built for integrating U5 and the tunnel is ready built just beneath the A100 motorway. It could be later integrated into U5. But you know, that tramlovers want to have a tram between Hauptbahnhof and Turmstraße which lies directly upon the future U5, so clsoing the gap is far in the future at the moment. This tram is also a shit project but sadly this will happen. Still it is not clear what is definetely built on the former airport and how much traffic will be there. If it´s worth for metro they shouild do it via U5..


----------



## Skalka

tunnel owl said:


> I´m sure that the shit of the bifurbication of U6 will never happen. Another option, and this is not very new, is to branch of from U7 at Jungfernheide. The whole station was built for integrating U5 and the tunnel is ready built just beneath the A100 motorway. It could be later integrated into U5. But you know, that tramlovers want to have a tram between Hauptbahnhof and Turmstraße which lies directly upon the future U5, so clsoing the gap is far in the future at the moment. This tram is also a shit project but sadly this will happen. Still it is not clear what is definetely built on the former airport and how much traffic will be there. If it´s worth for metro they shouild do it via U5..


Tram isn't bad per se. Playing off tram and metro against each other however is. If you already have a lot of metrobus lines stuck in jams, having a smooth tram ride clearly mops up the stressful Berlin experience for everyday people that stay in the borough. And yet a direct interconnection of several north-south U-Bahn lines by an east-west U5 besides the S-Bahn on the Stadtbahn still makes for a sensible relief.

The question about the branch will be is if it's gonna be a real bifurcation of U7 or just a stub line called U75. Yes, a U7 from Urban Tech Republic (former TXL) would make an easy interchange at Bismarckallee at U2 (Zoo, Centre, Alex), and it'd terrific if the U1 had been extended to Adenauerplatz. But I guess there will be a lot of political reasons to leave it to be a stub line and I'll tell you why. First, Jungfernheide has a transit hub that makes a suitable gate to this complex just like that peoplemover getting you from Gatwick station to Gatwick airport. Second, U75 would remember people of making U5 complete just as it did with U55. Third, making it a branch line amid the longest subway line in Berlin would make it look weird, Spandauers would moan about looking like a forgotten borough if night subways don't even get there and Neukölln is just good enough to link up Schönefeld one day to some eyes. And fourth, it's been Berlin policy for ages to disentangle branch lines with small profile network lines being an occassional exception either because a U12 is a handy way to bypass a broken central part of U2 or because a U3 taking student from former East Berlin to the Free University just saves a few minutes by combatting the need for an interchange.


----------



## tunnel owl

Skalka said:


> The question about the branch will be is if it's gonna be a real bifurcation of U7 or just a stub line called U75. Yes, a U7 from Urban Tech Republic (former TXL) would make an easy interchange at Bismarckallee at U2 (Zoo, Centre, Alex), and it'd terrific if the U1 had been extended to Adenauerplatz. But I guess there will be a lot of political reasons to leave it to be a stub line and I'll tell you why. First, Jungfernheide has a transit hub that makes a suitable gate to this complex just like that peoplemover getting you from Gatwick station to Gatwick airport. Second, U75 would remember people of making U5 complete just as it did with U55. Third, making it a branch line amid the longest subway line in Berlin would make it look weird, Spandauers would moan about looking like a forgotten borough if night subways don't even get there and Neukölln is just good enough to link up Schönefeld one day to some eyes. And fourth, it's been Berlin policy for ages to disentangle branch lines with small profile network lines being an occassional exception either because a U12 is a handy way to bypass a broken central part of U2 or because a U3 taking student from former East Berlin to the Free University just saves a few minutes by combatting the need for an interchange.


There are two arguments against any bifrubication of U6 or U7. The so called Nahverkehrsplan intends that one day U6 and U7 should be served from end to end with an interval of 3-4 minutes. So it´s no good option to have another line there on U6 or U7. It could be served maybe in a 10-minute-interval. Probably it would be better to have a stub-line from Jungfernheide to Urban Tech Republic served like U4 every 5 minutes. It would be even cheaper then, because Jungfernheide could be reached just on the one track on the upper level. Another thing to have a stub-line is a very old idea to link Tegel with Wilmersdorf via heavy rail. The northern part of TXL, the area where the first terminal of the 1960s was, is to be built up with many new houses additionally to those of the time of the french allies. This area should be served too and U75 (or whatever) could create a link with U6 at Otisstraße or Scharnweberstraße. And it would be a good idea to have a further maintainance-yard for the U-bahn in that area as a substitute for the old Seestraße-yard. So a stub U75 from Seidelstraße to Jungfernheide would not be that ill-fated like U4 and stilll there is the possibility of linking it to U5. But as I said, they will build the tram exactly on the future alignment of U5 at Turmstraße. So it´s likeley we would have to wait for decades for that U5-link because no one will keep this tram out of service after short time for another construction. Better option would have been to have tram in the strett of Alt-Moabit instead of Turmstraße.


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## Skalka

I remember this plan from 1996 that shows that the only new depot to be planned would've been in Weißensee at the U10/U3. A new main depot for general inspections (Seestraße took over general inspections for the entire system as the one in Grunewald closed for whatever reason, estate values?) needs room and I guess it's been convenience why things have been concentrated at Seestraße whereas the everyday issues for a depot were removed from Seestraße as it cannot be expanded due to the city having grown into it. And if you look at the newest development plans for northwestern Berlin, you'll see that it's supposed to be plastered with non-utility projects (residences and businesses) with the possible exception of the hexagon that the fireworks may use as a training area. Too bad that these U5/U75 don't seem to be fit into this. And U5 already has a depot at Friedrichsfelde and a compound site at Hönow that the GDR intended to develop into a full depot over time. I guess it's easier to develop Hönow into a depot and Britz into a main depot in order to relieve Seestraße from general inspection that become too big to fit in there. But to be honest, it's generally better if every line that isn't a stub line had its own depot. Though of course, the original depot at Warschauer Straße has been downgraded to a compound site and I've seen it for myself. What could've been the shelter of those waggons is now the backside of a Lidl market.


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## Wilhem275

Wow, that plan was nice!

In general, splitting a metro line is to be avoided, unless we're talking about two really minor branches out of town (as Spandau surely is not). If a stub line to Tegel is needed, implementing a U55 (II) to Jungfernheide is better if you ask me.


A possible compromise to still have U5 to Jungfernheide (and over) without wasting the new tram line could be to build the U5 with an express setup, with no stations in Moabit except for those already built (Jungfernheide and Turmstr.). I believe there's a way to build deep tunnels without heavy works at road level.
It's not a huge gap and it wouldn't be bad to speed up U5, given how long it would be.

I guess the tram from Hbf would be routed on Alt-Moabit instead of Turmstr. first, so Fritz-Schloss-Park station should be safe anyway.



Another question: leaving aside for a moment the actual design of Jungfernheide U-Bhf, would it make sense to send U5 to Spandau and U7 to future-Tegel and beyond?
To me it seems more consistent to apply two straight routes with an X crossing instead of two wide arches with a long detour to just touch )( in one point.
As a bonus, if you send S5 to Spandau, you'd set a new record with U5 and S5 meeting 5 times 😅


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## Wilhem275

Ehr... I have to correct myself, the tram is actually routed on Turmstr. from the beginning:











Still, I would consider a U5 going directly from Hbf to Turmstr. station, if the scope is to reach more distant neighbourhoods.

If I remember correctly, the U5 platforms at Turmstr. are under the park, not directly under the road alignment.


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## tunnel owl

Skalka said:


> ... A new main depot for general inspections (Seestraße took over general inspections for the entire system as the one in Grunewald closed for whatever reason, estate values?) needs room and I guess it's been convenience why things have been concentrated at Seestraße whereas the everyday issues for a depot were removed from Seestraße as it cannot be expanded due to the city having grown into it. And if you look at the newest development plans for northwestern Berlin, you'll see that it's supposed to be plastered with non-utility projects (residences and businesses) with the possible exception of the hexagon that the fireworks may use as a training area. Too bad that these U5/U75 don't seem to be fit into this. And U5 already has a depot at Friedrichsfelde and a compound site at Hönow that the GDR intended to develop into a full depot over time. I guess it's easier to develop Hönow into a depot and Britz into a main depot in order to relieve Seestraße from general inspection that become too big to fit in there. But to be honest, it's generally better if every line that isn't a stub line had its own depot. Though of course, the original depot at Warschauer Straße has been downgraded to a compound site and I've seen it for myself. What could've been the shelter of those waggons is now the backside of a Lidl market.


The hexagon of TXL will host the Beuth-University, now residing in Wedding near Amrumer Straße. Fireworks will have the old Hangar further westwards the Hexagon. There is another option for having a stadium for Berlin Football-Club Hertha BSC in that area. It´s still open what will happen with TXL and Maybe U-Bahn will get a Chance. 

Coming to Depots: The depot-concept of 2003 considered Seestraße as the main-depot for heavy maintainance. Since bombings in WWII the small-profile has no adequate facility for this in Grunewald. But in fact, the depot-concept is cancelled, it never worked out. Small-Profil trains are still maintained in Grunewald completely. Nowadays heavy-maintainance in german metros doesn´t mean to put a car from it´s boguies via crane and turn it from inside out. It takes too much time. New heavy-maintainance means to swap components and get components repaired at a different place. Munich and Hamburg built drive-through-halls for this reason. The Seestraße-depot is really outdated and it is planned to build new small halls for heavy-maintainance in Grunewald, Britz and Friedrichsfelde. Those halls with 2-3 tracks are served with component-logistics from a central point, that´s the future for now and first works in Britz should start in 2022 (hopefully). What is also needed is a further small depot for every-day maintance (washing, fitting-wheels, small things to be fitted) mainly for U6 and U9. The network still suffers from the closure of the Waisentunnel which means that except U5 every maintainance is done from Britz. Even small maintainance is not really good to handle in Seestraße, and that´s what I meant a small-depot on a TXL-area could serve as. As U6 should be served with a 3-4 minutes interval this line has real problems because of too less siding tracks. There is a plan to turn Seestraße-depot into a siding for 16 Trains as it has a good location on U6 and even U9.


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## tunnel owl

Wilhem275 said:


> Another question: leaving aside for a moment the actual design of Jungfernheide U-Bhf, would it make sense to send U5 to Spandau and U7 to future-Tegel and beyond?
> To me it seems more consistent to apply two straight routes with an X crossing instead of two wide arches with a long detour to just touch )( in one point.
> As a bonus, if you send S5 to Spandau, you'd set a new record with U5 and S5 meeting 5 times 😅


Yes, this would make sense of cause. Back than in the 70s in West-Berlin it was very think-forward to still integrate future-U5 into Jungfernheide-station. But the track-layout for what you are thinking About would have meant to cross lines, not it´s just that U7 and future U5 lean to each other and part away afterwards. Anyway it would be possible but it would mean much additional tunneling south of Jungfernheide.

About your idea of express U5 from Hbf. to Jungfernheide: I also thought about this. Even with tram in Turmstraße this would work. U5 could go via Fritz-Schloß-Park-Station in direction of U-Bahnhof Turmstraße under street Alt-Moabit with a new station there near the crossing of Turmstraße. The already built station-shell for U5 lies directly under the small park called Kleiner Tiergarten but it is located over the platform of U9 and it might not be suitable for modern Standards and for the further alignment. It reminds me somehow of the ready-built station shell of San Giovanni in Rome for C-line which wasn´t used as the line C was built to a deeper level. I would consider a further stop under Kaiserin-Augusta-Allee near Reuchlinstraße and than Jungfernheide. Stations are the most expensive part of metro-construction. If ever new U-Bahn will be built in Berlin, we will see station-distances of at least 800 m I suppose.


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## Wilhem275

Pretty much what I had in mind:










Seems a balanced solution to me, stations are not too distant and the system is perfectly complementary with the tram.
All new stations get to be built under parks, way easier.

Going via Kaiserin-Augusta-Allee gives 3 advantages:

stay away from the tram
serve a different area (possibly also the "Helmholtzstr. Peninsula" with a footbridge)
make it easier to pass to the other side of U7 before reaching station level at Jungfernheide
Re-routing U7 onto the unused U5 platforms maybe is not extremely complicated, the station was built for a set of points allowing Mierendorffplatz > Tegel, but it could be too slow to be used as a main line track and/or too close to the platforms.

I believe it would be worth the effort.
The original plan to send U5 to Tegel was not wrong, connecting the airport to the "central line" was surely more important than other connections. But without the airport this looses significance, better to have a more balanced network.


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## TM_Germany

I think in this case it would actually be better to have an )( alignment and leave U7 as it is, as U5 would otherwise offer an almost identical service to a future S-Bahn connection utilizing the Siemensbahn. But otherwise I like your alignment.


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## LtBk

Any transport plans for areas south of A100 and Tempelhofer Feld before the border with Brandenburg?


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## tunnel owl

Wilhem275 said:


> Pretty much what I had in mind:
> 
> View attachment 122904
> 
> 
> Seems a balanced solution to me, stations are not too distant and the system is perfectly complementary with the tram.
> All new stations get to be built under parks, way easier.


Perfect, I would even consider to run U5 straight between Turmstraße and Reuchlinstraße.under Zwinglistraße.


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## tunnel owl

LtBk said:


> Any transport plans for areas south of A100 and Tempelhofer Feld before the border with Brandenburg?


They take under consideration to extend U7 from Rudow to the now Flughafen-Schönefeld S-Bahnstation, future BER Terminal 5.


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## LtBk

What are current and near future public transport projects for Berlin?


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## TM_Germany

Hah! You're funny!

Almost nothing unfortunately. There is S21, the next north-south S-Bahn line from Hauptbahnhof to Südkreuz but until that's completed we might all be dead. The first segment is going to open this year (or next, can't remember), which is basically a connection from Hauptbahnhof to the Ring line. Other than that just a couple of short Tram extensions. 
There are no major S-Bahn projects in advanced planning and the current government pretends that the U-Bahn doesn't exist.


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## Darryl

Well, don't forget the U5 extension from Hauptbahnhof to Hoenow with 3 new stations at Unter den Linden, Museumsinsel, and Rotes Rathaus opening next month!


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## tunnel owl

Yes, it took us decades because that morons in the city-council didn´t want it to build first. So it´s finishing a very old story. But ok, there is little hope that the U5-extension will be successful in a way that´s obvious that the city has to carry on extending the U-Bahn-network.


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## LtBk

*the morons


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## TM_Germany

I just remembered. I guess the closest S-Bahn project is the reactivation of the Siemensbahn. There is also the 4-tracking of Dresdner Bahn but that's more beneficial to long distance traffic. The airport express will use it as well.


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## Skalka

If it's already in operation mode as train drivers are actually training how to drive it properly, I'd consider it an already finished project. And it's only nine days from now, due to be opened on December 4th. I'd therefore consider it finished. The most discussed project is extending the Siemensbahn (likely to feed into S21 when it's rebuilt) beyond its current scope to the so-called "water town" in the borough of Spandau and the question is if it's supposed to be realized overground (cheaper, but less wiggle room with housing being built in the way) or underground (more flexible to run under said buildings and the Havel River near said "water town" but also more expensive). Rebuilding comes first, extension comes second.

Past desires to demolish the Siemensbahn were hamstrung by bureaucracies (correctly guessing it would be needed again) and this precedent will make it easier to overhaul the legacy Siemensbahn with an old permit whereas an extension beyond Gartenfeld up to Hakenfelde would definitely require a new planning approval process. I remember that there were ideas to extend the U-Bahn from Ruhleben (U2, back then U1) via Rathaus Spandau to Hakenfelde which was the older alternative to Falkenhagener Feld that could be rendered obsolete as an S-Bahn extension from Spandau to Falkensee would just serve that route. Rathaus/Berlin-Spandau station is considered an overcrowded interchange station anyway and extending lines that currently end there is therefore a no-brainer. It would be terrific if there could be an S+U stop at Hakenfelde at the edge of Spandau and Berlin in general. It would feel like extending the Second Avenue subway right into the vicinity of Columbia University and New York City College.


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## tunnel owl

Concerning Spandau, DBAG tendered a study how to extend S-Bahn, Regionalbahn and ICE beyond Spandau to Falkensee and Nauen. The study predicts that the railway will have an upgrade from 2 to 4 tracks between Spandau and Nauen. Additionally platform with 2 tracks should be build in Spandau and all branches will be grade-seperated. The S-Bahn has to be studied in several variants: S-Bahn till Finkenkrug, S-Bahn just till Falkensee, a branch to Falkenseer Chaussee via old OHE-Railway track as an option and last but not least leading S-Bahn Underground between Stresow and future Nauener Straße Station. The latter option seems very ambitioned at least. Results of the study are expected in 2023.

Other ideas are extensions of S-Bahn to the towns of Stahnsdorf, Velten and Rangsdorf. Only the last one is more or less in advanced stage.


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## Baron Hirsch

In principle: the present Berlin senate coalition came to power promising decisive improvement of public rail infrastructure, which had been neglected, while highway and airport and moreover saving to pay back debts had been high on the agenda for the last 15 years. 
Now they are in principle working on 3 things.
i2030 - improve rail lines connecting Berlin with the surrounding suburbs within Brandenburg. Both states have negotiated an agenda, which will lead to improving existing lines and (re-)opening some new ones. Some will be realized as S-Bahn, some as Regionalbahn, and in some cases, a feasibility study has yet to determine which. Tunnel Owl lists most of them.
S-Bahn within Berlin - not much planned here. The aforementioned S21 (to open summer 2021), which does not even have any new station (just connecting existing ones in a new way), might get one in 10 years or so, while tunnel extensions southward are still in initial planning phase. Plus the Siemensbahn.
U-Bahn - the green senator of transport sees subways as a waste of public money, while the socialdemocratic coalition partner wants to get a few minor extensions. A rough feasibility calculation has been done for 3-4 projects. None have become specific yet.
Tram - this is where the coalition promised extensions big time. An extensive new tram system would be easy to plan, comparatively cheap and quick to build, and efficient in creating sustainable transport, they claimed, Major extensions are envisaged, but nothing much has happened. While the coalition planned to see a few lines grow within its 5-year term of office and initiate several more, four years into their reign, not even the projects already initiated by the previous government have seen any digging starting, and the subsequent ones are still in rather initial planning. 
We will see whether these projects are just a bit slow to kick off and will bear fruit in the long run or they will soon be abandoned, due to new government majorities or lack of funds.


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## LtBk

Thanks for answering. Which form of public transport does the general public want to improve the most?


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## Darryl

tunnel owl said:


> Yes, it took us decades because that morons in the city-council didn´t want it to build first. So it´s finishing a very old story. But ok, there is little hope that the U5-extension will be successful in a way that´s obvious that the city has to carry on extending the U-Bahn-network.


On this day of Thanksgiving (in the US) be reminded that Berlin has one of the best and most extensive city public transport systems in the world. There are thousands of cities that would kill for a system even half as good.


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## Darryl

...but I hear you guys on improvements being slow. Super slow is the Berlin way these days it seems. I guess in Germany there is endless red tape, committees, studies, inspections, etc... whereas in somewhere like China they just build it. Lol


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## tunnel owl

LtBk said:


> Thanks for answering. Which form of public transport does the general public want to improve the most?


An inquiry performed by newspaper Berliner Morgenpost said, that over 80% of Berliners would appreciate the extension of the U-Bahn-network.









Mehrheit für Pop-Up-Radspuren und U-Bahn-Ausbau


Der Berlin Trend zur Verkehrspolitik zeigt jedoch große Meinungsunterschiede zwischen Bewohnern der Innenstadt und der Außenbezirke.




www.morgenpost.de


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## LtBk

Darryl said:


> ...but I hear you guys on improvements being slow. Super slow is the Berlin way these days it seems. I guess in Germany there is endless red tape, committees, studies, inspections, etc... whereas in somewhere like China they just build it. Lol


It's lot easier to built thing when you have an authoritarian government with tons of cheap labor and money+political will.


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## tunnel owl

Darryl said:


> On this day of Thanksgiving (in the US) be reminded that Berlin has one of the best and most extensive city public transport systems in the world.


Yes, it´s extensive and good but in the outer parts of the city many links are missing and it takes a long time to travel (ok at least there is an offer, I know what you mean).

I can´t speak about China but in Europe several cities come to my mind, having a similar or better coverage and quality: Prague, Munich, Moscow, Vienna, Barcelone, Milan, Lyon, Madrid, Budapest, Stockholm, Oslo and to some extend also London and Paris. Maybe also others... It´s hard to qualify what makes a public-transport-system better than another in many cases.


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## LtBk

I'm sure this question was ask before, but why the commies never built any new metro lines in former East Berlin during the Cold War? I agree with Darryl that Berlin has a great system despite it's shortcomings.


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## Darryl

Sounds like you guys are focused on suburbs and connections to outer lying parts of the region. Within the central city, Berlin/Paris/London are extremely better than most of those cities mentioned.


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## Darryl

Just pleeaase get that graffiti off the trains. Sheesh. lol


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## TM_Germany

LtBk said:


> I'm sure this question was ask before, but why the commies never built any new metro lines in former East Berlin during the Cold War? I agree with Darryl that Berlin has a great system despite it's shortcomings.



They did extend the U5 but that's it. The reason for that is because the U-Bahn was administered by the BVG, a West-Berlin institution. The S-Bahn was administered by East Berlin, hence why they focused on that. I wish Berlin would have some Moscow style workers palace subway stations though 😍


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## Darryl

Yes, those Moscow subway stations are amazingly gorgeous. That's about the only thing I actually liked in Russia. Berlin's stations look like hell in comparison.


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## LtBk

Darryl said:


> Sounds like you guys are focused on suburbs and connections to outer lying parts of the region. Within the central city, Berlin/Paris/London are extremely better than most of those cities mentioned.


The suburbs have the S-Bahn and regional rail.


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## Baron Hirsch

TM_Germany said:


> They did extend the U5 but that's it. The reason for that is because the U-Bahn was administered by the BVG, a West-Berlin institution. The S-Bahn was administered by East Berlin, hence why they focused on that. I wish Berlin would have some Moscow style workers palace subway stations though 😍


Umm, not quite. East German subways (U2 Eastern branch, U5) were run by BVB, completely independent of its West Berlin split-off, BVG. However, the layout of the other lines just did not fit into the East Berlin city grid. U6 and U8 briefly run across the East for a few stations, but come from and continue to the Western sectors on both sides. As border traffic was under strict control, all the Eastern intermediate stations were closed except for Friedrichstraße, where there was an official crossing. U1 had only its terminus stop in the East, which was closed. U3, 4, 7, and 9 either had no stops in the East or were only developed later in the West. 
So the East focused on its trams (preserving them, while the West abandoned them) and the S-Bahn, which it operated for the whole city until 1981, when the West Berlin lines were either abandoned or taken over by BVG.

As for the international comparison, Berlin U-Bahn's coverage of downtown districts is not as good as London's or Paris' and both of those cities as well as Vienna and others are developing extensions. Especially in the light of the discussion to make large sections of the Berlin downtown districts toll-access only for motorized vehicles, it would be prudent to do some selective extensions so car-free living in the city becomes really easy and enjoyable.


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## schmidt

I had once read that Berlin's infrastructure system has been planned/built for a city of 10 million, which obviously is not the case these days. I lived in the city 10 years ago and the public transport was *never *crowded. I haven't been on crowded trains the last time I visited either, but then I wasn't using it in rush hour.

The S+U network seems to cover the city very well. Are there any parts of the city with acute deficiencies? Even the U5, to be honest, I would say is not needed, and seems more of a completionist project rather than one with real utility. I used to live around U5 Tierpark and, to get to Mitte or Haupfbahnhof, I would switch to the S-Bahn at Lichtenberg. It was much quicker than would have been taking the U5 all the way through (in its finished state as of next month).

But then my perception is one from >10 years ago, so perhaps does not fit current times.


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## NCT

Speaking purely as a reader of lines on maps and someone who's spent a total of about 5 days in Berlin, I think U5's usefulness should increase once it's extended through.

Currently if you need to go west of Alexander Platz and you'd need the S-bahn anyway, then you might as well change at Lichtenberg. It's 8 stops on the U5 and 6 stops on the S-bahn, but I'd have thought the difference in pure journey times would be pretty negligible. Once through journey opportunities become available I actually think you are better off staying on the train the whole way and saving yourself an interchange.


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## tunnel owl

LtBk said:


> I'm sure this question was ask before, but why the commies never built any new metro lines in former East Berlin during the Cold War? I agree with Darryl that Berlin has a great system despite it's shortcomings.


There had been two attempts of building a new line F from Französische Straße via Alexanderplatz to Weißensee. THe first one waas in 1968, the last one around 1980. In both cases it was planned to build big prefab housing around Karow, Hohenschönhausen and Blankenburg. They already did the work for sewerage.system (water-cleaning plant in Schönerlinde) and built a 380kV-powerline. But than it was obvious that so much new housing would need to implement a metro. They studied additional S-bahn and fast-tram-service but line F should have to be build. But the socialist party said, that the economy of the GDR was not powerful enough to build again housing for more than 100.00 people and a metro. 

What happened then? They scrapped the plan of new housings in Karow and focussed on Hellersdorf-Hönow which they thought to link with the S-Bahn. But the S-Bahn trunk-route was already at the limit of capacity because Marzahn and Wartenberg had to be served aditionally. After a short period with thinkin about a U-Bahn-line L (Leninallee now LAndsberger Allee to Kaulsdorf) they turned the original plan to extend line E (now U5) further east instead of south to Karlshorst. Using a railway-alignment on some parts made it cheap and that´s how U5 came to Hönow and housings have been built there instead of Karow.


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## tunnel owl

Darryl said:


> Berlin's stations look like hell in comparison.


If this is hell, I´m in 









Bahnhof Berlin-Spandau – Wikipedia







de.wikipedia.org












Bahnhof Berlin Heidelberger Platz – Wikipedia







de.wikipedia.org












U-Bahnhof Lindauer Allee – Wikipedia







de.wikipedia.org


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## tunnel owl

schmidt said:


> But then my perception is one from >10 years ago, so perhaps does not fit current times.


10 years ago was a time before ridership began to increase before Corona. Berlin U-Bahn than had far less than 500 Mill. passengers/a and it was only member in CoMet because it had seen better times before. Before Corona ridership was about 570 Mill. in 2019 and still growing. Well, we face what all european cities face because of Covid now.


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## tunnel owl

schmidt said:


> The S+U network seems to cover the city very well. Are there any parts of the city with acute deficiencies?


Yes. If i talk about existing deficiencies, not about future developments of housing etc. there is some work to be done:


S-Bahn via Gartenfeld to Hakenfelde
S-Bahn to Falkensee
S-Bahn to Velten
S-Bahn to Rangsdorf
City S-Bahn from Hbf. via Potsdamer Platz and Glesidreieck to Südkreuz
U 3 to Mexikoplatz, perhaps even to Düppel
U8 to Märkisches Viertel
U2 to Pankow-Kirche
U9 to Pankow-Heinersdorf S-Bahn-station
U9 to Lankwitz S-Bahn
U7 to Schönefeld and later to BER
U1 to Adenauerplatz and later to Westkreuz S-Bahn

U-Bahn to Weißensee, huh, would be worth to think about, but not with that stupid people in Berlin government at the moment


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## Lw25

tunnel owl said:


> S-Bahn via Gartenfeld to Hakenfelde


Maybe it would be easier via Spandau using this: Bahnstrecke Bötzow–Berlin-Spandau – Wikipedia


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## tunnel owl

It would not serve the areas which are in most need of rapid-transit, the so called Wasserstadt Oberhavel and the Gartenfeld island.


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## metro-world

tunnel owl said:


> Yes. If i talk about existing deficiencies, not about future developments of housing etc. there is some work to be done:
> 
> 
> S-Bahn via Gartenfeld to Hakenfelde
> S-Bahn to Falkensee
> S-Bahn to Velten
> S-Bahn to Rangsdorf
> City S-Bahn from Hbf. via Potsdamer Platz and Glesidreieck to Südkreuz
> U 3 to Mexikoplatz, perhaps even to Düppel
> U8 to Märkisches Viertel
> U2 to Pankow-Kirche
> U9 to Pankow-Heinersdorf S-Bahn-station
> U9 to Lankwitz S-Bahn
> U7 to Schönefeld and later to BER
> U1 to Adenauerplatz and later to Westkreuz S-Bahn
> 
> U-Bahn to Weißensee, huh, would be worth to think about, but not with that stupid people in Berlin government at the moment


Well - intresting discussion on Berlin U+S Development - but not worth to do!

the re-unification of the former separated transport bodies for U-Bahn and S-Bahn goes back 30 years about, and are no subject of current deficits! The greatest proble for Berlin development is political battles! They are talking and talking, presents new planes and nothing is decided - even a new plan comes up. the best example for this is the current administration red- violet - green, which first brings themselve in good salary positions and then talking and talking!
the presented plan for 4 tram extension to 2021 - only one short is u.c.!

U5: whu wants really to ride from Alexanderplatz to Friedrichstr. or Unter den Linden except tourists or for eavening concerts or theaters? for shopping you can use the U2 and comes more centrally there!
the Reason for the construction of the gab was that the Nat. Governmant asked Berlin to replay the funding of the first part from Hbf to Brandenburger Tor if they not start building of the final link. this was the real reason to start.
then in 10 years they just build 2,5 km with 3 stations!

Long range developments were done often since the 1990th - but not came forward. 
from the above noted missed links some are more importand than others - like U8 to Märkisches Viertel or U 9 to Lankwitz and U2 to Pankow Kirche. Also the first 2 noted S-Bahn extensions.

What Berlin needs at last is the U7 to Schönefeld Airport! Whu wants to travel close one hour to central if he can take a Train which is much faster with many less stops!!

S-Bahn: the S21 could run long ago! In the planes for the Railway Tunnels in central Berlin it was first planned to build U5 and S21 together - this where easy but S21 was canceled as of cost! the then calculated rd 200 to 300 mio. DM costs now over 1 bn € - this is German cost saving! not only here. Berlin haves some other such examples!

For the S-Bahn extensions - apart from ridership up and down - the greatest problem was, that Berlin wants to extend - and Brandenburg state not. So it came not forward! Since they found by around 2017 oh Berlin Regio is now fast growing since about 2010 steadly - we need to expand the rail network. Then was in 2018 a new Team formed which likes now to bring the planes to realisation - the "i2030" project in which all related bodies are integrated. However first we have to plan .. and again new studies were authorized. What at the S-Bahn extension to Falkensee was not studied during the recent 25 years to nee a new one now??? One pont was S-Bahn or Regionnal trains the only question in view to the growing traffic is how many trains I need more to run - not about the project itselve! the most recent joke is, now comes up the idea of a Tunnel for the S-Bahn in Spandau- againn new studies on which just 22 mio. € were authorized for the study, which will. begin next year and take 2 years - again a delay. The newspaper reports that the plannings and construction approvals detail planes will take up to 2030 to start construction! was the goal of the i2030 team not to have the extensions mostly in place by that time??

This gives some outsiders a view what happens in Berlin....


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## tunnel owl

DBAG seems to have plenty of time and money for putting existing S-Bahn-lines underground, like they think about putting the Verbindungsbahn in Hamburg underground. This would have the charm of creating a transfer between U2 and S-Bahn at Schlump. The Spandau-underground idea is absolutely stupid. In the end, they will use the former Transrapid right-of-way to create two new tracks at Spandau and that´s it. But hey, let´s make a study and we don´t have to decide the next three years


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## Skalka

tunnel owl said:


> DBAG seems to have plenty of time and money for putting existing S-Bahn-lines underground, like they think about putting the Verbindungsbahn in Hamburg underground. This would have the charm of creating a transfer between U2 and S-Bahn at Schlump. The Spandau-underground idea is absolutely stupid. In the end, they will use the former Transrapid right-of-way to create two new tracks at Spandau and that´s it. But hey, let´s make a study and we don´t have to decide the next three years


Even if a maglev would ever go via Spandau, it would be underground. If there's political capital for a new high-speed rail or even a maglev at one point, there will also be the political capital to dig in deep. The best proof is the fact that Old Oak Common station for HS2 in London will be built underground and the legacy overground railways will be merely amended with new stations for Crossrail at Great Western Main Line and Overground in the vicinity of Willesden Junction and the convenient proximity of Old Oak Common to these "legacies" and the fact that it's already a railway-oriented depot in the first place makes it very convenient, let alone the fact that you can build a new neighborhood upon it that's got great access from the start. Which is to say that local rapid transit just isn't sexy enough to attract the political capital required to built a costly tunnel whereas a big national connection seems to be just that, sexy enough. Maybe it's because the only difference between a base tunnel under a mountain ridge and a base tunnel under a city is the fact that the latter just requires an additional stop at that point and that's it.


----------



## Baron Hirsch

Today around noon, the 4 station extension of U5 will be inaugurated. U6 will change from stopping at Französische Str to Unter den Linden. Also, several bus lines in the vicinity will change or shorten their routes either immediately or in two weeks time. 
But what are the new stations good for? To be honest, fairly little. I checked U5's speed according to the future schedule. As those familiar with Berlin will know, both the older section of U5 and the extension run parallel to the Stadtbahn (the main commuter train line or S-Bahn through downtown) and often in not too great distance from one another. They intersect at Hauptbahnhof, Alexanderplatz, Lichtenberg, and Wuhletal.
On the new stretch, i.e. Hauptbahnhof to Alexanderplatz, the S-Bahn and also parallel Regional Express trains win the race: 6 minutes compared to 9 by the new U-Bahn. 
East of Alex, the old U5 wins: 11 minutes from there to Lichtenberg, rather than 13.
Between Lichtenberg and Wuhletal, the S-Bahn once again wins with 7 versus 10 minutes.
What is the point? If you are sitting on a U5 coming from anywhere East of Alex, you will no longer have to change going towards Hauptbahnhof and will save some minutes due to that. But if you are changing from one of the numerous subways, trams, busses running to Alex, you will always take the S-Bahn onwards. None of the new stations or stations incorporated from the former stub line U55 are further than 500 meters from the S-Bahn. So except for tourists, I do not see a large ridership on this line. Initially this was to be only the beginning of an extension that was to continue to Turmstraße, Jungfernheide and Tegel Airport. In that case, it would have served new badly needed crosslinks. But as present-day politicians want to serve those routes exclusively via tram, it looks like U5 and its unused tunnel extending northwest from Hauptbahnhof will not serve much purpose.


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## schmidt

Spot on analysis! It will be mainly a tourist line, sort of what the Piccadilly line is in central London.
Also, I didn't know that Lichtenberg - Alex was faster using the U5. I lived at Tierpark in Berlin, so whenever I needed to go to Alex, I'd take the U5 straight on, but anything beyond that, I'd switch at Lichtenberg (for Zoo, etc).


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## Urbanus

Baron Hirsch said:


> Today around noon, the 4 station extension of U5 will be inaugurated. U6 will change from stopping at Französische Str to Unter den Linden. Also, several bus lines in the vicinity will change or shorten their routes either immediately or in two weeks time.
> But what are the new stations good for? To be honest, fairly little. I checked U5's speed according to the future schedule. As those familiar with Berlin will know, both the older section of U5 and the extension run parallel to the Stadtbahn (the main commuter train line or S-Bahn through downtown) and often in not too great distance from one another. They intersect at Hauptbahnhof, Alexanderplatz, Lichtenberg, and Wuhletal.
> On the new stretch, i.e. Hauptbahnhof to Alexanderplatz, the S-Bahn and also parallel Regional Express trains win the race: 6 minutes compared to 9 by the new U-Bahn.
> East of Alex, the old U5 wins: 11 minutes from there to Lichtenberg, rather than 13.
> Between Lichtenberg and Wuhletal, the S-Bahn once again wins with 7 versus 10 minutes.
> What is the point? If you are sitting on a U5 coming from anywhere East of Alex, you will no longer have to change going towards Hauptbahnhof and will save some minutes due to that. But if you are changing from one of the numerous subways, trams, busses running to Alex, you will always take the S-Bahn onwards. None of the new stations or stations incorporated from the former stub line U55 are further than 500 meters from the S-Bahn. So except for tourists, I do not see a large ridership on this line. Initially this was to be only the beginning of an extension that was to continue to Turmstraße, Jungfernheide and Tegel Airport. In that case, it would have served new badly needed crosslinks. But as present-day politicians want to serve those routes exclusively via tram, it looks like U5 and its unused tunnel extending northwest from Hauptbahnhof will not serve much purpose.


It adds more possibilities, and that is always good. I guess if you came with U-Bahn to Alexander Platz, you will be more likely to change to U5 than S-Bahn, as it is closer and you don't have to get all the way up to the elevated part of the Alexander Platz Bahnhof.

But looking at the many places in the city that is very pourly served by U-Bahn or S-Bahn, it is not the most obvious extention (I know about the political backgrund for the project - as part of the big network, it makes sense, but as the only major project for decades, it don't).


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## HelloMoto163

Dont forget the (maybe) planned Sbahn between Karow and Köpenick besides the new street "TVO Tangente"
So people can take the Sbahn from Karow to BER.









Baubeginn für Regio-Tangente erst in den 2030er-Jahren


Entlang der TVO soll eine neue Nahverkehrsstrecke führen. Diese könnte jedoch frühestens in über zehn Jahren entstehen.




www.morgenpost.de







https://img.morgenpost.de/img/marzahn-hellersdorf/crop230145524/191935495-h310-cv4_3/581aa7d2-dbc8-11ea-8a94-e1f016cd922c.png


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## tunnel owl

I hope that this Tangente will eventually be a real DC S-Bahn as originally planned since decades.


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## flierfy

Baron Hirsch said:


> ... But if you are changing from one of the numerous subways, trams, busses running to Alex, you will always take the S-Bahn onwards. ...


I beg to differ. The U5 extension is a vital link that serves many purposes and it will be the preferred options for many. Not only does it create several redundancies which make the whole network more robust. It also creates links which are more convenient than the one the S-Bahn provides. The Stadtbahn-S-Bahn runs three to four levels above all intersecting metro lines as well as the lower track level of Lehrter Bahnhof. This plus in vertical distance make every interchange additionally time consuming.


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## Darryl

The new stations are nice, but I'm surprised they don't have platform doors. Platform doors seem to be almost standard now for new stations in metro systems outside of Berlin.


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## Antje

Darryl said:


> The new stations are nice, but I'm surprised they don't have platform doors. Platform doors seem to be almost standard now for new stations in metro systems outside of Berlin.


I cannot confirm this, but I think the door spacings are different between the F, H and IK fleets.


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## TER200

Antje said:


> I cannot confirm this, but I think the door spacings are different between the F, H and IK fleets.


Indeed. It's the IK temporarily running on this line which mess it up however, as the series F, H and future J seem to have the same car sizes and number of doors.


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## tunnel owl

PSD almost standard in Europe? Definetely not and especially in Germany no way in existance in U-Bahn/Stadtbahn, just in planning stage.

Even F and H have different door spacings in each car. But it also depends on space between cars. At articulated cars space is short (called chort-coupling), not articulated cars have much more space between them because of the Scharfenberg-coupling and the crash-barriers. So sadly, even J and H will differ, because J-trains are foreseen in a 4+2 arrangement and H-train is a full 6-car-type.

New J and JK-trains will have harmonized doort spacings to sace costs. But his means, that JK-trains will only have to doors per side, whereas IK has three. So, no equal door spacing on small-profile lines, too.


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## Attus

U5 is not simply a connection to Hauptbahnhof, it's rather an important traffic line under a main street (Unter den Linden) in Berlin, connecting lots of destinations for commuters and locals as well.


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## 437.001

Is it just me, or the new Unter den Linden station reminds me a bit of Canal station in Madrid?

Anyway, congrats Berlin!!


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## luacstjh98

Wait, the type J won't have full walk through between all 6 cars?


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## tunnel owl

Yes, the configuration is 4 (walk-through) and 2 (walk-through). But they are all two-car-units. It is possible to create a 6-car walk-through. The reason is, that each damage of H-train means that the whole 6-car-train has to go to the depot. Also, during construction works and other times 4-car-units and even 2 car-units are needed.


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## schmidt

This thread could definitely do with some pictchas!


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## Deadeye Reloaded

New section of the U5.


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## dimlys1994

From Metro Report:









Tram order as Berlin approves investment programme


GERMANY: The supervisory board of Berlin transport operator BVG has approved plans to purchase 107 new trams from Bombardier to continue the city's fleet replacement programme.




www.railwaygazette.com


----------



## TM_Germany

Here's a pretty cool documentary about the construction of the new section of U5:





Only in German unfortunately.


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## LtBk

dimlys1994 said:


> From Metro Report:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tram order as Berlin approves investment programme
> 
> 
> GERMANY: The supervisory board of Berlin transport operator BVG has approved plans to purchase 107 new trams from Bombardier to continue the city's fleet replacement programme.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.railwaygazette.com


Slightly OT, but I never used the tram system in Berlin or any other city in Europe.


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## schmidt

LtBk said:


> Slightly OT, but I never used the tram system in Berlin or any other city in Europe.


I lived in quite deep former East Berlin, so the trams were quite handy for me. Even around Mitte it is quite useful sometimes, for example moving westwards from Prenzlauer Berg to Nordbahnhof and so.


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## GeneratorNL

LtBk said:


> Slightly OT, but I never used the tram system in Berlin or any other city in Europe.


It all depends on where in the city you are and where you want to go. For instance, I used to live right next to the Landsberger Allee S-Bahn and tram station. If I wanted to go to central Berlin (Alexanderplatz or Hackescher Markt) I had to change trains at Ostkreuz if I took the S-Bahn. If I took the tram though I would get there straight away. So I often took the tram.


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## Lw25

dimlys1994 said:


> From Metro Report:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tram order as Berlin approves investment programme
> 
> 
> GERMANY: The supervisory board of Berlin transport operator BVG has approved plans to purchase 107 new trams from Bombardier to continue the city's fleet replacement programme.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.railwaygazette.com


What Bombardier offered this time? 7 and 10 modules Flexity Berlin or some other design?


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## DiogoBaptista

Why the white floor on the new platform stations? It will get dirty so fast. 
Thats so stupid on a mass transport system!


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## AAPMBerlin

Lw25 said:


> What Bombardier offered this time? 7 and 10 modules Flexity Berlin or some other design?


5 modules with 30m and 9 modules with 50 m, both modernized Flexity Berlin trams.


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## ikarus280

The first train of the new S-Bahn class 483/484 has entered service tonight shortly after midnight (Jan 1st).


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1344785291693989888


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## Skalka

DB 483/484 looks like a child of DB 480 and DB 485 which it's supposed to replace. What's been the improvement in DB 483/484 trainsets compared to DB 481/482?


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## tunnel owl

More like a child of 480 series if it comes to the motor-concept, the number of doors and the layout. 485 is the last S-Bahn with four doors per car and side. Main improvement in 483-series is air-condition, doors closing themselves like new Munich S-Bahn-trains and other S-Bahns already do and it is supposed to be much quiter than the Heulboje (481). 480 is also loud from the outside but it is heavily motorized and a concept from the 1980s. If you stand near the Stadtbahn it´s always a shame how loud 481 from 2001 is compared to an ICE from 1991 running on the same kind of tracks.


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## Fatfield

A video by UndergroundBerlin on youtube.


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## Gintaras

Germany , Berlin tram 2020


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## NCT

The new S-bahn trains look smart. It seems to me that within Berlin (and some other German cities) the difference between S-bahn and U-bahn seems to be more a route choice than a mode choice. Within the city proper at least it seems just a case of which line you live on and/or where you want to go, at least that's my impression on my fleeting visits to Berlin. The Berlin S-bahn has pretty much all the characteristics of typical metro systems in the world, like core route frequency, stop spacing, and train size and layout. Berlin S-bahn trains look a bit like slightly bigger versions of the S8 stock on London's Metropolitan line (an 8-carriage train is 8cm wider and about 10 metres longer).


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## urbanflight

The new S-bahn trains look high quality to me. I like them.


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## TM_Germany

NCT said:


> The new S-bahn trains look smart. It seems to me that within Berlin (and some other German cities) the difference between S-bahn and U-bahn seems to be more a route choice than a mode choice. Within the city proper at least it seems just a case of which line you live on and/or where you want to go, at least that's my impression on my fleeting visits to Berlin. The Berlin S-bahn has pretty much all the characteristics of typical metro systems in the world, like core route frequency, stop spacing, and train size and layout. Berlin S-bahn trains look a bit like slightly bigger versions of the S8 stock on London's Metropolitan line (an 8-carriage train is 8cm wider and about 10 metres longer).



Yeah that sounds right. The S-Bahn was initially basically just a rival company to the U-Bahn and it has all the characteristics of a full metro system. It does go a bit further into the suburbs and has a lower stop density in the outer reaches, but it isn't a heavy rail commuter network like in most other German cities except Hamburg.


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## tunnel owl

They started the separation of local tracks from long-distance traffic wround 1900 and build new alignments on dams and bridges for steam-service. In 1902 U-Bahn went into operation and since 1903 several attempts started to electrify the urban railways but it was 1924 when the first S-Bahn-service started to Bernau. It was a bigger derivat of the at that time new big-profile lines with DC collected from the lower part of 3rd rail. As there was no electrification of railways at that time, the electrified S-Bahn created a service nearly almost seperated from other traffic. Mixed traffic existed e. g. from Marienfelde to Rangsdorf. The political changes after WWII had a positive influence on this seperation as long-dictance-services had been scrapped. As they started the 16 kV AC-electrification in former GDR they were forced to seperate DC-S-Bahn, e. g. around Schönfließ. That´s why electrification in Berlin started lateley in the 1980s and that´s why the system is metro-like. But in contradiction to the U-Bahn trains are wider and there are trunk routes with several branches. Intervall is at least 20 minutes, U-Bahn is 5 minutes at least.


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## Attus

tunnel owl said:


> They started the separation of local tracks from long-distance traffic wround 1900


No. The railway line Charlottenburg - Schlesischer Bahnhof (currently called as Ostbahnhof) was opened in 1882, and had at the opening four tracks: two for long distance traffic and two for local traffic. 
This line (called as Stadtbahn) had very dense local train traffic in the steam ages, a headway of 3 minutes were usual in the 1920s. The service was not called S-Bahn before the electrification, but had very similar characteristics - however, it was much slower of course, steam engines did not have the dynamic of EMUs.


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## Baron Hirsch

As pointed out above, the reasons for the double system are historic. The S-Bahn evolved by separation from long-distance trains on separate tracks, running parallel to the pre-existing long distance lines. While a modern-day passenger without the intent of going to distant suburbs might not notice much difference, one of the main differences is also their routing. S-Bahn tracks systematically traverse the inner city districts, either on an East to West or North to South line, or in a circle around them, to then branch out towards the outer districts at certain key stations. U-Bahns, by contrast, have no such systematic approach, but were created ad hoc wherever sufficient traffic demand was suspected.


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## Skalka

I remember what I read about possible divergences that didn't happen. When the BVG took over the S-Bahn in West Berlin, there were ideas about this island mode to become, well, technically divergent from the DR and congruent with the U-Bahn and that the complete unweaving from the DR was either impossible or impractical. It's better that this didn't happen. The front face of the DB 480 also looks a bit like a slice of golden toast bread worked by a weird sandwich maker. An Eastern divergence could've been possible with the DR 270 (DB 485) that was also a new 1980s creation in its half of Berlin that could've been bigger and yet was destined to fit into the Nord-Süd-S-Bahn-Tunnel anyway despite not being part of the Eastern network. It's almost as if both sides were pragmatic for global political wildcards to happen. Or hopeful that the own side would quickly win the Cold War. Or whatever.

Now imagine this: What if the Western S-Bahn would've been retrofitted to run with U-Bahn stock and the Eastern S-Bahn would've gotten trains that wouldn't fit into that tunnel under Central Berlin with reunification happening just at the time as we know it? I guess we don't want to imagine that mess.

I guess the DB 481/482 was designed to look especially distinct from both 1980s types to show that it's the new Berlin and the "diving goggle" face was supposed to show that Berlin turned into fun as nobody gets shot at the wall anymore. So DB 483/484 is more of a pragmatic back to the roots from a design perspective, a sensible rapid transit train that also looks like that and yet is 21st century modern. First was the toaster (West) and the coke can (East), then was the diving goggles and now there's the tablet on wheels.


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## metr0p0litain

Skalka said:


> ...and now there's the tablet on wheels.


I heard also "light switch", what is even better!


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## tunnel owl

Skalka said:


> Now imagine this: What if the Western S-Bahn would've been retrofitted to run with U-Bahn stock and the Eastern S-Bahn would've gotten trains that wouldn't fit into that tunnel under Central Berlin with reunification happening just at the time as we know it? I guess we don't want to imagine that mess.


There had been two ideas using the West-Brlin S-Bahn. First to have U9 extended to Lichterfelde and U8 to Frohnau. Second idea was to implement the O-Bahn, in existance in Adelaide, to let it run on the S-Bahn tracks to Lichterfelde. But none of those ideas reached official support. Politicians in East and West avoided every affort that seemed to underline the partition in east and west because the "other side" would have used this for propaganda. Another thing was, that the right-of-way was still owned by Deutsche Reichsbahn in West-Berlin. BVG only had the right to operate S-Bahn, but didn´t own the railway-area.

It is mainly unknown, I suppose only few know: In the 1970s East-Berlin had the idea to integrate the U-Bahn into Deutsche Reichsbahn. As you know line E (today U5) was operated with former S-Bahn-trains and they thought this integration would make sense. But line E was built between 1927 and 1930 with US credits, like all other U-Bahn projects in Berlin at that time. This is why the big bang of 1929 also caused a stop in Berlin U-Bahn construction. So, they had to back the credits. After line E belonged to the eastern sector, the GDR denied to pay the credit back. The US-banks couldn´t do anything about this. But if line E would have been transfered to Deutsche Reichsbahn there might have been the possibility of politically discuss that again. So even the GDR was not free in those decisions and left everything how it was.


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## urbanflight

> Senator ⁦@RegineGuenther gives the go-ahead for Berlin's first electrically operated articulated buses today. In future, line 200 will be climate-friendly and quiet. Many more lines follow.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1298928173690826752


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## urbanflight

> The tram is coming: The building permit for the 2.1 km extension of the M10 to Turmstrasse has been obtained. "The new tram connection will bring East and West even closer together," says Senator @RegineGuenther . Because the 2nd extension is already being planned.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1351181371587366921


> This year construction starts at the extended #Straßenbahnlinie M10 between main station Turmstrasse underground station




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1351435668921200641


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## TM_Germany

Ahh shit. I was really hoping this would fail so that there would still be hope to extend U5 like originally planned. It looks like the current Senate is really trying hard to c*ckblock the U-Bahn as much as possible before they are (hopefully) voted out this year.


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## Jim856796

Just another case of a bad government wanting to stifle growth, especially if it's for that "Urban Tech Country" or whatever that's replacing the Tegel Airport. I understand there's a cost reasoning behind going with a tram extension instead of a U-Bahn extension, but still, it appears that once construction on that tram extension starts, there won't be any going back. As for the long term, i'm not sure if the area to be served by that planned tram extension can realistically be served by both tram _and_ U-Bahn. What makes anyone think tram would be a better long-term solution for that area than U-Bahn?


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## Skalka

TM_Germany said:


> Ahh shit. I was really hoping this would fail so that there would still be hope to extend U5 like originally planned. It looks like the current Senate is really trying hard to c*ckblock the U-Bahn as much as possible before they are (hopefully) voted out this year.


Yes, they do really try their best. But I don't think that the "cockblocking" danger is really that big. I've been thinking that the closure of TXL airport actually helps the U5 in getting extended inside out. I find it much more likely for Urban Tech Republic to Jungfernheide getting built first because the latter is a super-hub. Half of the route of U5 between Hauptbahnhof and Turmstraße actually goes under the Fritz-Schloss-Park near the Kammergericht and the eponymous station would be the only one between Hauptbahnhof and Turmstraße. Even if you employed cut-and-cover, the tunnels under Turmstraße would rather be under the street pavements whereas the tramway would be in the middle of the road and TBMs would be the first choice anyway, especially if there's no station to be built inbetween.



Jim856796 said:


> Just another case of a bad government wanting to stifle growth, especially if it's for that "Urban Tech Country" or whatever that's replacing the Tegel Airport. I understand there's a cost reasoning behind going with a tram extension instead of a U-Bahn extension, but still, it appears that once construction on that tram extension starts, there won't be any going back. As for the long term, i'm not sure if the area to be served by that planned tram extension can realistically be served by both tram _and_ U-Bahn. What makes anyone think tram would be a better long-term solution for that area than U-Bahn?


Nothing. The idea is more about the general tram reconquista into the west of Berlin, former West Berlin actually. A lot of Metrobus lines follow the route of former tram lines and often adopted their numbers, yet they get stuck in jams with ordinary vehicles. A designated tramway with right of way would speed up the whole process and that's why the tramway is sensible. Not as a substitution to the U-Bahn, but as a supplement.

You can blame any ruling party that the tramway to Turmstraße is actually a big "Up yours!" to the opposing political camp. The Greens are the post-materialists that oppose the automotive frenzy of the Wirtschaftswunder days as part of their DNA and prefer anything that takes away space from cars (e.g. the tramway) over anything that leaves room for cars (e.g. the U-Bahn). The Left are materialists that didn't partake in the Wirtschaftswunder even if they'd desired to have that automotive frenzy under Socialism too, so the cheap tramway is great for identity purposes. The SPD are materialists that did partake in the Wirtschaftswunder, but like the Left don't forget that many of their voters need public transit more than FDP, CDU and AfD voters and therefore have little problem to push through the tramway, especially if it promotes peace and harmony in the coalition government and is done relatively quickly at low cost.

The question cannot be Tram or U-Bahn, you need BOTH. Then again, I never ever fooled myself for the tramway to Turmstraße not to be done before something like U5 to Turmstraße would even be practically attempted. And as I said, I find a stub line from Jungfernheide to former TXL to be the most plausible venture among the remaining U5 plans.


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## TM_Germany

Getting both U-Bahn and Tram would be nice, but impossible under current law. The fed. gov. doesn't give money to projects that are already served by a different mode.


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## schmidt

Perhaps Tegel could be connected to the U7 (Jakob-Kaiser Platz) or the S-Bahn (Jungernheide), or both, with some sort of midget new U-Bahn line like the U4.


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## Stuu

Why not just a branch off U6? It's large-profile, near the end of the route and only a few hundred metres from the airport?


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## Skalka

Stuu said:


> Why not just a branch off U6? It's large-profile, near the end of the route and only a few hundred metres from the airport?


The idea is widely discussed and many people that are against a further U5 extension are actually for this so-called "U65" and it's also an official proposal that this branch could be cheaply built besides other minor extensions like the U8 to Märkisches Viertel and U3 to Mexikoplatz and all that other stuff that could be quickly and cheaply realized. Yes, you can do this. And it will likely be done.

The "problem" is just the same as with the tramway: U5 extension could be shelved for good. Yet on the other hand, Sofia and Belgrade show that it's not insane to have a terminal station for two lines from opposing sides. Another issue would be the headway. You could do it as intense as in direction Alt-Tegel, but it would require either more cars and drivers and therefore money to pay them OR you'd have to re-reroute every second train currently going to Alt-Tegel to Urban Tech Republic and whereas most Berliners would indeed not bother, those in the Reinickendorf borough would (the plurality there votes for the CDU, however, which isn't in the current Berlin Senate).

Yes, you can actually branch off the U6 into Urban Tech Republic and, considering they're taking the shortest stretch from Kurt-Schumacher-Platz where P+R for airport passengers has a great tradition and also follows some utopic ideas how to extend the U5 beyond TXL/Urban Tech Republic, it's also sound. So yeah, this stuff will come.

My biggest problem with just taking U6 or "U65" to Urban Tech Republic (besides the "orthodoxy" that Berlin used to like one service per line only for a long time) as a substitute for the U5 and not just as a supplement is the fact that this entirely new quarter with residents and jobs will require additional capacity in the entire network and having yet another interchange possibility between Berlin Hauptbahnhof and Berlin Jungfernheide at Turmstraße between U9 and U5 would greatly expand the capacity in relieving potential bottlenecks in the department of intersections. People that could interchange conveniently at Turmstraße would ease the pain for commuters that have to interchange elsewhere anyway.

I'd compare it with U2xU5 in Vienna. The idea is that Vienna will one day hit the 2 million mark (just as Berlin will hit the 4 million mark and maybe even 5) and the U2xU5 project is increasing the network by turning that one snail house of U2 into two radial lines U2 and U5 and increasing the numbers of interchanges between the U and S lines in Vienna from 10 to 14.


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## Skalka

Back in the days, there was Görlitzer Bahnhof and the tramway had to go around it. Nowadays, it's been Görlitzer Park for ages and cutting it in two with the tramway is actually the best thing that can happen to that park. If a tramway is always running through the park, the drug dealers face the light and prefer other places of commerce. That's why I like it going straight through park. It's not just shortest and cheapest, it's also a method of social control. Especially in twilight and the actual night.


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## ikarus280

Sadly, the drug dealers will just relocate. They won't give up their way of income. 😒 But at least Görlitzer Park may become more family friendly.


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## tunnel owl

The new tram is already nicknamed drug-stop. You don´t have to walk to get your stuff in future...


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## Skalka

After Amazon Prime aired a relaunch of "Wir Kinder vom Bahnhof Zoo" as a series, I read an up-to-date interview with the original Christiane F. with her history of relapses and she also says that she also goes to Goerli to get her fix and that Zoo stopped being a destination for ages. 

There's quite some irony in this. You may argue that Zoo may still be the drug mecca of Berlin if not for the fall of the Iron Curtain. You may also say that finishing the Oderbaumbrücke for the U1 (and now also U3 for FU students living in the East only needing to transfer at Warschauer Straße) was the major reason why Goerli was accessible enough to become the hub of druggie Berlin. Zoo served its purposed, lost its significance and therefore got an opportunity to be overhauled once Berlin Hauptbahnhof took over. And now the M10 will do something similar to Goerli, fixing the park from the guys giving you a fix.

Zoo Station is getting an overhaul that's supposed to be finished by 2027 with the entrance hall opened at the start of this year already. Then S21 is accessible enough at Berlin Hbf that not serving Zoo Station with intercity lines has served its purpose and four stops per day for the Deutschlandtakt will do and not hurt the balances of Deutsche Bahn. People will hardly re-raise themselves to disembark at Zoo Station if they got used to disembark in the Centre and the East where the fun happens.


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## Baron Hirsch

Skalka, that has got to be the worst analysis of Berlin affairs i have ever read. For one, a city this size has always had more than just one street market for intoxicants. While Zoo Station, a pretty anonymous traffic and shopping hub declared the center of West Berlin, was purged at some point due to clampdowns, several places, especially in Kreuzberg district continued to exist. Especially Kottbuser Tor has a long tradition. The difference here is that it is a district known for its tolerance and even politicians usually refrained from too frequent purges, knowing that it would just mean moving the scene from one location to another. Several changes have caused the scene at Görli to grow, among them the impossibility for refugees and immigrants without official status to find a legit line of work. Therefore, while few people are happy with the high concentration of dealers, there seems no feasible alternative which can be affected by district politicians.
And make no mistake: the park is huge. Just because there is one little track across lit up by street lights, there are still plenty of other parts for sale activities. Or why not use the tram stop? While there were more frequent police raids in the park, some of the suppliers had moved their business to the entrance stairs of U-Bahnhof Görlitzer. It is not something that can only be done in the dark per se.


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## Skalka

It's more about symbolics and the narrative than anything else. Of course, I know that you cannot "drain the swamp" and it's more about the thing that Zoo and Görli get more or less a similar amount of care now at a similar timeframe: In the 2020s. And a narrative can be great to sell a policy to the electorate, whether it's founded in truth or not.


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## Lw25

Wow, tram rails on Oberbaumbrücke finally will be used? How many years passed from their laid down?


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## flierfy

Lw25 said:


> Wow, tram rails on Oberbaumbrücke finally will be used? How many years passed from their laid down?


No, they won't be used. These tracks have been removed two years ago.


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## Lw25

flierfy said:


> No, they won't be used. These tracks have been removed two years ago.


Thanks, I haven't been to Berlin in a few years.


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## Skalka

IIRC, tracks were removed because they were placed in a way that would've fit an old Tatra vehicle next to the U-Bahn, but not to thicker Flexity vehicles. Wasn't it so that Berlin defined a bigger minimum clearance outline for tram vehicles of 2.50 m instead of 2.30 m which is to abide to whenever new tram tracks are supposed to planned and built? If the Flexity was too big to fit in there, it's good that the old track was removed to make way for a more spacious iteration. The bridge is fine, it's just that the track became too close to the U-Bahn for the good of the new tramway.


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## tunnel owl

From what I know it´s even worse. The old tracks were fixed into the bridge in a way no one would do today because the non-avoidable moves of the bridge are badly isolated from the tram-tracks if even isolated at all. It´s what they did the same time at Warschauer Brücke with new tracks which had to be rebuild several times. Don´t know about clearance-problem, they mainly occur in curves, but maybe this is also a reason.


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## venia

Maifest at Görli will be interesting with the M10  More things to throw stones at, I guess.

I know I've arrived a bit late to the discussion, but I wanted to give a non technical, nor economical opinion, but just my personal experience with big German projects.
I always felt that Germans already count on this big projects to take for ages. As I worked in the S21 project, there was this strange feeling among the engineers that no one would see a train running there in their lifetime. There was this kind of resignation (and strange proudness) that at some point some problem would appear that would make everything stop for ages and cost loads of money and have people demonstrating against it, and not because they doubted the quality of their work, but because these things always happen. An they kind of liked to see all this bureaucracy working to find a concensual solution that will be highly technically complex and freaking expensive.
I come from a country where public proyects are from a waaay lower technical level (well, that's most of the World's countries, actually), but in contrast to Germany, it makes you feel that most of their problems and delays are self inflicted: because of their strict laws, because they're used to stick to those norms, because common people are obsessed with this projects and expect to be listened and participate in and even stop the projects, and so on. So when you compare how things are done in the US or whatever other country it may seem uncomprehesible how the Germans are deep into this discussions that stop the projects for years, because nearly every other country in the World has a much more straightfoward (and much less careful) approach to this big projects. For example, I also worked in the A100 tunnel unter the Grenzallee (another project stopped by opposed opinions about it). It happened once that the Schalung inclined a bit and so the tunnel was just 2 cm smaller in the top part (it's a freaking highway 30 meters wide, they were JUST 2 cm), and the engineers where speaking about demolishing the whole section. And this blew my mind at such a level, first because back home we would have just left it like that, who cares, it was not a problem at all. And if someone did care (if someone had noticed first!!), we would have just even the concrete with the next part and that's it. But that's not how they work. I have lots of examples of things like these. No wonder the delays! I've worked in other countries and never saw anything like that. They just can't let something wrong pass by and that's their biggest virtue but also their worst enemy. I loved working there, but sometimes it drives you crazy!
I've been a couple of times to Switzerland, although I haven't work there. You know, in case some German says their usual "This is not Switzerland".


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## tunnel owl

It´s not the regulations and norms, those are to a big amount Euro-regulations meanwhile, so other countries have to handle them, too. It´s about *how *to handle those regulations as they are not laws, they are just regulations and it´s allowed to discuss deviations and alternatives. And yes, other countries people don´t care that much about projects like Germans do. The process of public-viewing of plans is a good example. In Barcelona no one really took part in that public viewing of L5-extension, everybody wanted the metro. So after 6 weeks public-viewing of plans, the L5-extension was ready to be started, unbelieveable in Germany. And it is a matter of german society. The media is a strong opponent of every big project, because they like the stories about things that don´t work and somebody is to blame for. So the daily readers of newspaper meanwhile think: Ok, don´t go for big projects, they are always worse. This is the result of a long process in german society, invented decades ago by the green party, which is opponent of every big infrastructure-project.


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## LtBk

Media tend to like negative stories in general. As for projects being more straightforward in other countries I don't think that applies to the USA as general public tend to be involved in new projects, delays, political opposition, and there is lot of NIMBYism. Perhaps it's more of a Germanic vs Romance cultural difference found in Europe and their off-shots in the new world.


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## sergiogiorgini

^^ I think that's an interesting take. The Netherlands is certainly among those Germanic countries. The government might spend a few million euros on a highway project and face a few years of local protests and delays, but nothing sparks the national imagination quite like a large transit project delayed and over budget. The media happily feeds off of that and makes sure that certain metro and rail infrastructure projects become household names synonymous with government incompetence. The result of that at this point — rather counter-productively at a time when political campaigns run on environmental promises — is of course that virtually all transit projects fail to get off the ground, because who wants to be the politician that greenlights tomorrow's clusterfuck?

It's more complex than this of course, but it does seem to be true that things just sort of "get built" in southern European countries where their northern neighbors spend a lot more time on the public discourse.


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## TM_Germany

LtBk said:


> Media tend to like negative stories in general. As for projects being more straightforward in other countries I don't think that applies to the USA as general public tend to be involved in new projects, delays, political opposition, and there is lot of NIMBYism. Perhaps it's more of a Germanic vs Romance cultural difference found in Europe and their off-shots in the new world.


I don't think this holds any water. Spain is wonderful at building infrastructure, Italy is okayish and Greece is pretty slow. The Netherlands, which sergiogiorgini mentioned has had a problematic metro project in Amsterdam, but is otherwise excellent in infrastructure construction, with large hishway projects completed in very short timeframes and fast regular maintenance as well. Even railways get tracks added and stations upgraded without any trouble.

Germany just truly is very, very bad at infrastructure construction, probably worse than any other western country. Even the U.S. is better at it. New PT construction on the scale of Seattle or LA would be inthinkable in Germany unfortunately.


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## Stuu

TM_Germany said:


> Germany just truly is very, very bad at infrastructure construction, probably worse than any other western country. Even the U.S. is better at it. New PT construction on the scale of Seattle or LA would be inthinkable in Germany unfortunately.


There is nothing on the scale of Stuttgart 21 under construction in the US, also the S-bahn in Munich is a huge project. I wouldn't argue about how long it takes to get things planned and built, but it does happen. Germany also has much better infrastructure than most other countries, so there is less need for new construction (although I know some of it is falling apart)


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## TM_Germany

Stuu said:


> There is nothing on the scale of Stuttgart 21 under construction in the US, also the S-bahn in Munich is a huge project. I wouldn't argue about how long it takes to get things planned and built, but it does happen. Germany also has much better infrastructure than most other countries, so there is less need for new construction (although I know some of it is falling apart)


The East Side Access in New York is definitely on par with S21, the station expansions planned for LA union and SF are even bigger. The second S-Bahn tunnel in Munich is nice, but 7km is hardly "huge". The first and second stage of the Purple line in
LA are already 11km, with many more stations than in Munich. Also, the construction time there is supposed to be an already long 9 years, the Stammstrecke will take at least 12 years. 
It might be that Germany already has pretty good infrastructure, however it's quite bad compared to almost all of our neighbours who (except for maybe Belgium) all have much bigger infrastructrure projects going on than what is even conceivable in Germany.


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## Balkanmiddleeastern

The U5 line in Hamburg is 31 km and is firmly decided


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## TM_Germany

That's the only sort of impressive infrastructure project going on in Germany that I can think of right now. However, only the first phase is already being planned. While the 2025 time horizon to the first phase is quite good, I'm at least 90% confident it won't finish before 2030.


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## sergiogiorgini

TM_Germany said:


> I don't think this holds any water. Spain is wonderful at building infrastructure, Italy is okayish and Greece is pretty slow. The Netherlands, which sergiogiorgini mentioned has had a problematic metro project in Amsterdam, but is otherwise excellent in infrastructure construction, with large hishway projects completed in very short timeframes and fast regular maintenance as well. Even railways get tracks added and stations upgraded without any trouble.
> 
> Germany just truly is very, very bad at infrastructure construction, probably worse than any other western country. Even the U.S. is better at it. New PT construction on the scale of Seattle or LA would be inthinkable in Germany unfortunately.


Well I think you're overestimating us (your neighbors to the west) a bit. Highways the Dutch can do, these can be split up in bits and pieces that make for uninteresting media drama and are well-supported by the public as well as the center-right governments we've had for decades. The same goes for water infrastructure. Rail projects however are almost inherently controversial and aside from station and local track improvements, the only projects that have currently made it past the approval stage are a minor tram line extension far south of Amsterdam and a one-station extension of the Rotterdam Metro (done as cheaply as possible with a single track). When you consider that major cities are booming and most of the national rail network essentially reached capacity a decade ago, this is not excellent.

As for Belgium, they have a pretty big metro project going on in Brussels (line 3), and perhaps more.


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## TM_Germany

sergiogiorgini said:


> Well I think you're overestimating us (your neighbors to the west) a bit. Highways the Dutch can do, these can be split up in bits and pieces that make for uninteresting media drama and are well-supported by the public as well as the center-right governments we've had for decades. The same goes for water infrastructure. Rail projects however are almost inherently controversial and aside from station and local track improvements, the only projects that have currently made it past the approval stage are a minor tram line extension far south of Amsterdam and a one-station extension of the Rotterdam Metro (done as cheaply as possible with a single track). When you consider that major cities are booming and most of the national rail network essentially reached capacity a decade ago, this is not excellent.
> 
> As for Belgium, they have a pretty big metro project going on in Brussels (line 3), and perhaps more.


Dutch highways have had very impressive projects in recent years, not just small section upgrades. They don't invest much in new rail lines anymore, which is a shame, but even there they've shown what they can do with the Betuweroute (where the German side of the project is both laughable in scale and not nearly finished more than ten years after the dutch were done). And even the "little" works like station upgrades and additional tracks being laid is just done much better than here. Many stations here have been waiting for a new roof for 20 years, and wherever a sation got redeveloped (e.g. Halle) it took absolute ages. Adding tracks in Germany seems to be akin to going to Mars here, when timescopes and public outrage is considered. Recent (bad) examples are the morthern approach to Frankfurt, the Nordmainsche S-Bahn, the route between Hannover and Hamburg, the whole RRX project and the still(!) not completed section of HSL Berlin-Munich (after being started in 1991!), which is just adding tracks to the existing line, instead of continuing the new 300km/h alignment that every somewhat reasonable country would have done.

I didn't know about that project in Belgium, looks like the formerly worst country at infrastructure is now squarely ahead of us at well.


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## Balkanmiddleeastern

The first part will opened in 2028 and the other parts between 2035-2040 but yeah let's see


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## TM_Germany

Oh. I still remembered that they originally planned to build the first part until 2025 and the rest until 2030. Seems to be going well then 😑. A twenty year timeframe makes it a completely unimpressive project then.


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## Skalka

Balkanmiddleeastern said:


> The first part will opened in 2028 and the other parts between 2035-2040 but yeah let's see





TM_Germany said:


> Oh. I still remembered that they originally planned to build the first part until 2025 and the rest until 2030. Seems to be going well then 😑. A twenty year timeframe makes it a completely unimpressive project then.


What are you talking about? If you mean Berlin-Munich HSR and the missing link in the middle was finished in 2017, what do you mean? The Dresdner Bahn in Berlin that's also needed to access BER from Central Berlin?


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## TM_Germany

Skalka said:


> What are you talking about? If you mean Berlin-Munich HSR and the missing link in the middle was finished in 2017, what do you mean? The Dresdner Bahn in Berlin that's also needed to access BER from Central Berlin?


yeah, they "opened it", but it's not complete. The HSL between Erfurt and Nuremberg for no reason just ends in the middle of nowhere near Bamberg, instead of continuing to Nuremberg. The rest of the way it uses the conventional railway. Now they're planning on adding a couple more tracks with 230km/h to fill the gap. That the HSL just ends in the middle of nowhere instead of actually connecting Ato B is so unbelievably stupid (and exemplary of how bad infrastructure planning in Germany is), it legit makes me angry. Another example of this is exact same problem is the HSL Nuremerg - Munich, which just ends near the mid point at Ingolstadt and then has to crawl along a conventional the rest of the way with some sections only at 120km/h. Yet this is part of the "complete" line between Berlin and Munich, and there aren't even any plans to improve that situation. All in all the whole "megaproject" is quite pathetic, less than 230km of new railway took almost 30 years, everything else on that route are just quick fix patch up solutions, which also explains why the average speed is so low at less than 180km/h iirc.
But of course, the Dresdner Bahn is another small and easy project that takes ages to complete, yes. 

Here in blue are the only actual HSL sections of the line. Green are upgraded sections of existing lines and black are conventional railway sections that have nothing to do with HSR and where a large part of the travel time is actually spent.


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## LtBk

TM_Germany said:


> I don't think this holds any water. Spain is wonderful at building infrastructure, Italy is okayish and Greece is pretty slow. The Netherlands, which sergiogiorgini mentioned has had a problematic metro project in Amsterdam, but is otherwise excellent in infrastructure construction, with large hishway projects completed in very short timeframes and fast regular maintenance as well. Even railways get tracks added and stations upgraded without any trouble.
> 
> Germany just truly is very, very bad at infrastructure construction, probably worse than any other western country. Even the U.S. is better at it. New PT construction on the scale of Seattle or LA would be inthinkable in Germany unfortunately.


It's the issue of money and politics. Los Angeles(twice) and Seattle had to pass local referendums for tax increases in order to fund transport projects because of the lack of government support. Even with increased funding it will take decades(around 2040-2050s) before all the projects are finished, assuming if there are not delayed. Other cities like those in the Northeast aren't so lucky. Keep in mind public transport systems in those cities are underdeveloped given the size compared to Europe or Asia and most of rail projects are light rail, which are just fancy trams as you probably know, and more developed in Germany and elsewhere IIRC. BTW, the Dutch hasn't built a HSR to Germany.


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## TM_Germany

LtBk said:


> It's the issue of money and politics. Los Angeles(twice) and Seattle had to pass local referendums for tax increases in order to fund transport projects because of the lack of government support. Even with increased funding it will take decades(around 2040-2050s) before all the projects are finished, assuming if there are not delayed. Other cities like those in the Northeast aren't so lucky. Keep in mind public transport systems in those cities are underdeveloped given the size compared to Europe or Asia and most of rail projects are light rail, which are just fancy trams as you probably know, and more developed in Germany and elsewhere IIRC. BTW, the Dutch hasn't built a HSR to Germany.


I know, but there isn't really a money problem right now in Germany as funding is relatively readily available. Of course I know that the U.S. isn't exactly a good example of how to do infrastructure projects, but that is exactly the point. Even the "bad example" of the U.S. can do it better than we are. And yes I know a lot of transit in the U.S. is light rail, however those can be compared to the light rail Stadtbahn we have, and we haven't been able to extend those systems as well. Austin is pretty much a Stadtbahn copy and Seattle's light rail expansions are almost exclusively tunnel and bridge, so they're better than just fancy trams, which is why I picked those as examples, rather than say Denver. 
The Dutch haven't built HSR to Germany, but they've built the Betuweroute, which is a newly built heavy freight corridor with a loading gauge which allows for double stack containter wagons, which is just unimaginably forward thinking for German standarts.


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## venia

tunnel owl said:


> It´s not the regulations and norms, those are to a big amount Euro-regulations meanwhile, so other countries have to handle them, too. It´s about *how *to handle those regulations as they are not laws, they are just regulations and it´s allowed to discuss deviations and alternatives. And yes, other countries people don´t care that much about projects like Germans do. The process of public-viewing of plans is a good example. In Barcelona no one really took part in that public viewing of L5-extension, everybody wanted the metro. So after 6 weeks public-viewing of plans, the L5-extension was ready to be started, unbelieveable in Germany. And it is a matter of german society. The media is a strong opponent of every big project, because they like the stories about things that don´t work and somebody is to blame for. So the daily readers of newspaper meanwhile think: Ok, don´t go for big projects, they are always worse. This is the result of a long process in german society, invented decades ago by the green party, which is opponent of every big infrastructure-project.


I think you got it totally right. Germans have this aim for consensus when sometimes it's just impossible.


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## Skalka

TM_Germany said:


> yeah, they "opened it", but it's not complete. The HSL between Erfurt and Nuremberg for no reason just ends in the middle of nowhere near Bamberg, instead of continuing to Nuremberg. The rest of the way it uses the conventional railway. Now they're planning on adding a couple more tracks with 230km/h to fill the gap. That the HSL just ends in the middle of nowhere instead of actually connecting Ato B is so unbelievably stupid (and exemplary of how bad infrastructure planning in Germany is), it legit makes me angry. Another example of this is exact same problem is the HSL Nuremerg - Munich, which just ends near the mid point at Ingolstadt and then has to crawl along a conventional the rest of the way with some sections only at 120km/h. Yet this is part of the "complete" line between Berlin and Munich, and there aren't even any plans to improve that situation. All in all the whole "megaproject" is quite pathetic, less than 230km of new railway took almost 30 years, everything else on that route are just quick fix patch up solutions, which also explains why the average speed is so low at less than 180km/h iirc.
> But of course, the Dresdner Bahn is another small and easy project that takes ages to complete, yes.
> 
> Here in blue are the only actual HSL sections of the line. Green are upgraded sections of existing lines and black are conventional railway sections that have nothing to do with HSR and where a large part of the travel time is actually spent.
> View attachment 1426470


Ah, I see, I remembered the town of Ebensfeld, but seeing how it almost touches the state border (or former inner-German border) is still enlightening. Nevertheless, the tunnel itself already shinks travel time between EF and N from three hours to a bit more than one hour and I guess that the one-hour threshold will be broken with the subsequent upgrade mentioned. I guess 60 minutes between EF and N in a clockface schedule are more than alright.

Even if you take the linear distance of about 170 km, you'd need 350 km/h for 30 minutes in order to sensible cut times this way. 45 minutes are a mess and more prudent for places like Stuttgart where the HSR takes 35 minutes to Mannheim meaning that sensible clockface times to both Mannheim and Karlsruhe are 45 minutes and Ulm having a similar distance in the other direction and this would add up to multiples of half-hours at the edges.

What can be seen as a political failure is the fact that Berlin to Munich still takes 4 hours to ride. 3 hours are considered the threshold where a high-speed rail connection kills aircraft in that relation. EF is already a major detour between Leipzig and Nuremberg and was employed for political reasons, so you'd need another straight high-speed rail line between L and N via Gera and you could amend legislation in a way that you don't need to make the line cargo-proof as long as there's the ecological argument to build it. And this should regularly be "there's a flight connection between X and Y inside Germany and trains yet need 3+ hours and this measure shrinks it to 3 hours or less".

French LGV are built without having cargo in mind and France actually passed a law recently that forbids national flights inside France if the relation is served in less than 2 1/2 hours by train (originals drafts called for 4 hours, mind you). There are 80 national flights per day between Paris-Orly and the rest of France and this measure would just reduce it to 70 or so I read. Four hours would kill a lot, but... there's also the province in France and they don't want to be left behind. And that's alright.


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## Balkanmiddleeastern

We talked about the U5 line in Hamburg


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## tunnel owl

I don´t know about that 3h. You can access ICE at least at Hbf. and Südkreuz. Now you have to travel to BER for a flight and MUC is far from the city. Depending on where you start and end your journey B to M, ICE might beat a national flight very often. Of cause it could have been less than 4 h. It´s always the same. ICE should beat national flights but also travel times by car. 75% of Germans still live in towns smaller than 20.000 inhabitants. It´s much more important to offer quick railways to cities like Erfurt, Erlangen and Ingolstadt than in other countries.


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## AAPMBerlin

HEY GUYS!!!!
We are here in the thread BERLIN-Public Transport!!!!
Not Germany-Public Transport or Germany-High Speed Railway or Hamburg - Public Transport!!!


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## AAPMBerlin

Let´s talk abaut that SPD (Social-Democratic-Party) wants to build the U10 from Alexanderplatz via Weissensee to Blankenburger Süden









Machbarkeitsstudie für die U10: Berliner SPD will U-Bahn vom Alexanderplatz durch Weißensee bauen lassen


Gerade noch „verspinnerte Vision“, nun „realistisches Projekt“: Die SPD will den Bau der legendären U-Bahnlinie 10 vorbereiten. Was steckt hinter dem Umdenken?




www.tagesspiegel.de


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## Baron Hirsch

Just one last remark to the general debate. It makes a huge difference what kind of investments you have, public or private, road or rails. While some essential new track variants of DB Fernverkehr are currently being discussed over and over, police is beating up protesters to get out of the way of new highway being built through pristine forests of Hesse. Meanwhile, Tesla had the authorities going out of their way to issue extraordinary permits for chopping down the woods for their plant even before the damage it will create for the environment could even be properly assessed (and of course a quick new exit from the Autobahn for them)....
Returning to Berlin, I live near the city's rather short u/c S-Bahnline S21 or city, or S15. It is quite entertaining to see how tiny little works are performed on that line, then all staff disappear for months, until we read about the next year of delay, then there is again a flurry of activity for a few days, and then another halt. The parallel road Heidestraße was redeveloped to house more cars within a few months, in fact half a year before schedule they finished. Neither is however comparable with the speed the offices and apartments are popping up in Europacity, the new (super-ugly) downtown quarter they are designed to serve (if only the municipality had not cancelled the S-Bahn stop at Europacity all together).


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## Attus

AAPMBerlin said:


> Let´s talk abaut that SPD (Social-Democratic-Party) wants to build the U10 from Alexanderplatz via Weissensee to Blankenburger Süden


Berlin will have elections in September (simultanously with the federal elections). So what parties say in these months, is irrelevant, they promise everything in order to win the elections.


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## Skalka

The closest thing to U10 being built would be extending the tramway to Berlin-Steglitz where the M4 would make the overground ersatz coffee for the never realized U10. I remember somebody wrote here that he thinks it's more probable for the U9 to get extended where it could cross the U10 rather than the U10 itself.

To be honest, if the U10/U3 plans ever get passed and done, it would be prudent to study an interchange station at Kulturforum/Nationalgalerie (whatever the name). Phantom line here or there, if Berlin ever jammed so bad that the southwestern U10 would see the light of the day, the best terminus would be Berlin Hauptbahnhof. It's really utopic and maybe a thing for 50 years in the future, but we're already talking about U10. So?


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## Baron Hirsch

The plan the SPD proposes is for Alex - Weißensee. The southern or western extension to Steglitz is not being debated at the moment. For Alex - Kuturforum, tram planning is ongoing presently and much more likely to see the light of day, and intended for a long-term extension down Hauptstr. to Steglitz.


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## TM_Germany

History of Berlin's U- and S-Bahn


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## Darryl

Museumsinsel U-Bahn station opens to the public today!


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## micro

This is not a night sky... (stars arranged in a grid pattern 🤬)








Image from Wikipedia


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## Darryl

It is meant to reference Karl Friedrich Schinkel's 1815 stage set for the arrival of the Queen of the Night in the opera The Magic Flute by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. As you can see in the photo, the stars in his stage set were also in a grid pattern. I think it looks nice.


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## Xorcist

Schinkel's 1815 design was intended to represent the dome of the Hall of Stars in the Palace of the Queen of the Night. This could only be displayed as a dome if the stars were arranged in a grid pattern. I also like it very much, it is a beautiful reminiscence of the work of Schinkel. picture (c) Xorcist


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## Wilhem275

Also, we're still talking about an industrial production, the maintenance of a custom random design would be a nightmare.


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## micro

Darryl said:


> It is meant to reference Karl Friedrich Schinkel's 1815 stage set for the arrival of the Queen of the Night in the opera The Magic Flute by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. As you can see in the photo, the stars in his stage set were also in a grid pattern. I think it looks nice.


The meme of a "reminiscence to Schinkel" sounds more like a late and halfhearted excuse for a very cheap design. If they meant the reminiscence to Schinkel slightly serious, they'd at least arranged the "stars" in rows of three.

But overall the station design isn't bad.


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## TM_Germany

A fine example of how not soccer, but complaining, is Germany's national sport.


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## geogregor

TM_Germany said:


> A fine example of how not soccer, but complaining, is Germany's national sport.


You can't compete with us Poles


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## micro

The real sport is complaining about complaining.


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## Skalka

I recently visited Berlin again for the sake of visiting Spandau Citadel, overnighting from Sunday to Tuesday.
Sunday was a merry go-round, parking in Rathaus Steglitz (U9 closed for maintenance from there to W/S-Straße) and taking the bus to S+U Hauptbahnhof to dive into the U5... only to miss exiting Museuminsel as I was tired, but awake enough to change to S9 at Alexanderplatz in order to reach the BER. Then took the RB from BER to Potsdam Hbf, the S7 to Wannsee and the S1 to Rathaus Steglitz again. BER visited? Check. U5 done? Doesn't count, finish the job tomorrow. My hotel was in Kurfürstenstraße 78, I left the car at Rathaus Steglitz the first night. I rode from R/S to W/S with the rail replacement bus, took the U9 to Ku'damm to change to the U1 to Kurfürstenstraße station where I had to walk quite some distance and getting chatted up by streetwalkers in the beginning before the street turned into a directionally separated road.

The day between the nights, I got back to the car and walked the distance from W/S to Rathaus Steglitz as it was easier. After driving to the Citadel Spandau (and recharging the phone in the car and getting another charger), I drove to Marzahn for P+R. I took the S7 to Alexanderplatz to change the U5 for Museuminsel. I photographed both the station (just the wall beyond the tracks and parts of the "star sky" above it for Instagram-ability) and the state of affairs above ground, including the Humboldt Forum (rebuilt city castle) and the fact that most of the plaza in front of it is behind a site fence. You can walk to the thing, but the plaza is not finished. Picture taken: Site fence on the road, Berlin Dome, Alex TV Tower, Humboldt Forum, GDR State Council. U5 done? Check. At least after riding yet another station: Unter den Linden.

The inconvenient thing about UdL is that the side platforms of U6 remain and that you should still watch out which elevator to take. They built the U5 central platform right underneath and the good thing is that this #1 makes it indifferent which elevator you take to the U5 and #2 that you can stay underground for changing the U6 side platform by nosediving to the U5 with the escalator and take the subsequent elevator to turn up again at the other side of the U6 level. Designed as an interchange hub, both side platforms of the U6 and the central platform of the U5 are connected with three escalators each doubling capacity in one direction at a time and also meaning a reserve if some escalator may be broken.

I rode the U6 down south to Tempelhof and changed to the S-Bahn for one stop, Südkreuz, to get back north with the S-Bahn to Friedrichstraße and ride due west to Charlottenburg for interchange to the U7 (Wilmersdorfer Straße) and get to Altstadt Spandau which is just one stop before Rathaus Spandau. The great thing is that both exits/entrances that run purely with escalators (no ordinary stairs or elevators) are at both respective ends of the cobblestone pedestrian zones and there's everything you need in a town center there, even a Cineplex whose house is just as small as all the others. I found a barber shop beyond of these exits, but they already closed at 7pm and it was almost 8pm. Corona incidents are so low that at least Berlin allows face shavings again, so I knew where to go the next day. What's aghast, however, is that Saxony wants to drop the masks in supermarkets from tomorrow on, but that's another story.

So I hopped down to Altstadt Spandau station again for one stop to Rathaus Spandau or Berlin-Spandau Station in general. I just wanted to get back to my car at the P+R in Marzahn and this as non-stop as possible. There was indeed an RB train leaving at :21 (meaning I had a quarter hour of time) running via Jungfernheide and Gesundbrunnen to Lichtenberg in less than half an hour and the last mile was just some stop with the S7 to Marzahn. *I don't know if this is the transit equivalent to adulting, but it's once again an instance where I feel less like a tourist and more like somebody that has stuff to do in this city. I was so tired of the U- and S-Bahn riding at that day that I actually seeked Spandau to get back the right way with the unsexy regular railway.* I got back to my car where I had my hippie-style charger for the hotel room and drove to said hotel. It was 10pm when I arrived and you're allowed to park at the street side without fare or a licence for residents between 10pm and 9am. The hotel guest car park was full anyway, it was the last night anyway and I set the alarm at 8 o'clock to feed the fare machine for three hours until noon the next day and it worked. Woke up at 8, dressed hastily, put in €6 for 9am till 12am, then continued sleeping until about 11 and checked out at about half past 11. I drove to Spandau again to get to the barber shop right on time in an easily walkable distance, my first professional shave after more than a year and damn, did it feel good. So I drove back home after this via Magdeburg to watch their very own construction site.


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## Baron Hirsch

The construction start for M10 tram extension to U Turmstraße has finally been announced. As of 23 August, the 2.2 km extension will be built in five different phases, starting from the present end at Hauptbahnhof and moving westwards. Inauguration is due for the first half of 2023. Two weeks before actual construction starts, there will be a ceremony with politicians. Elections for the Berlin Municipality-cum-state are due in September.


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## tmszjs

geogregor said:


> You can't compete with us Poles


That’s the real driving force behind our and Germany’s economic growth and social development. 

Congrats on the new beautiful station, guys.

What’s gonna happen to *Französische Straße*, though?

No plans to do with it whatsoever? I don’t know like installing glass panels between the tracks and the platform and turning it into a modern gallery or something like that. Back to the good old 'Ghost Stations' bag once again?


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## TM_Germany

Probably nothing will happen with it for a long time. Using it for any purpose except as a train station would mean that it would need to get upgraded to modern standards of accessibility etc, which would be prohibitively expensive.


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## APOQUINDO

Any pictures from outside the station?


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## TM_Germany

You mean from the general area? There is still some groundwork to be done, there are some construction sites and the approach to one of the exits is temporary. Next to it is the construction site of the unification memorial. Otherwise it's right in the middle of historic museum island.



Here you can see some of the remaining ground works:


You can see the elevator here:


One of the other exits leads to the side of the German historical museum:


Looking back at the new palace:


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## APOQUINDO

Many thanks!


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## ikarus280

Tomorrow the new tram connection between Adlershof and Schöneweide will be opened.


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## ikarus280

Not available on the website yet, but already through the BVG app:








Marked in red are the stations between which the new connection was built.

There will be special rides with the following Tatra trains: KT4D, KT4Dt mod and T6A2 mod. They will start and end at the Köpenick depot and each of them will make three runs. All rides are already sold out.


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## LSTyke

S Bahnhof Adlershof to S Bahnhofstrasse Schöneweide was finally opened today. A press report said that the BVG is seeking ways to speed up (improve) the speed of the planning process. Note that the broadcaster cannot state one of the termini correctly.









Mit der Tram nach Adlershof


Vom Ostbahnhof nach Adlershof führt ein heute feierlich eröffnetes, neues Straßenbahnteilstück - das erste von 15 weiteren, die bis 2035 für eine bessere Verbindung zwischen Innenstadt und Außenbezirken führen sollen. Wir waren bei der Jungfernfahrt dabei.




www.rbb-online.de


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## ikarus280

Holy sh*t. And I thought a previous article in which they said the new connection is in Köpenick was geographically bad. For those who don't know: RBB is the public broadcaster for Berlin and Brandenburg. The Berlin part mostly consists of former (West Berlin) SFB staff. When it comes to geography in West Berlin, they give you pinpoint locations. But when it comes to East Berlin, they give some random locations and seem to think: "Well, it's definitely in East Berlin, so it's roughly OK."


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## Zaz965

what cozy and relaxing ceiling


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## NCT

Slartibartfas said:


> A 3 min frequency is not optimal, that has nothing to do with anti-bus snobbery. One can do that of course but usually at such tight frequencies certain problems become rather common, especially when operating in mixed traffic. For example buses ending up right after each other.
> 
> 5 min are already more reasonable bus frequencies on busy corridors. If your bus line is too overcrowded either you don't use apropriately large buses or the buses on that corridor are not the optimal choice.


The point isn't so much the 25 operated at 3-minute frequencies, more that the service is withdrawn entirely between Oxford Circus and City Thameslink. And frankly 3-minute frequencies only become a problem if that frequency directly contributes to slower bus journeys. A bit of bunching on a high-frequency corridor isn't a problem, it's better than not providing enough capacity.

London doesn't have the road geometry that's capable of handling 15m double-deckers, and if rail is the answer, buses remain the only option in the short term, and short term in rail planning cycles is measured in decades. One shouldn't ignore the needs of bus users. The dismissive attitude does reflect anti-bus snobbery.

I doubt either Berlin or Paris would find this scale of bus decimation acceptable.


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## Slartibartfas

NCT said:


> The point isn't so much the 25 operated at 3-minute frequencies, more that the service is withdrawn entirely between Oxford Circus and City Thameslink. And frankly 3-minute frequencies only become a problem if that frequency directly contributes to slower bus journeys. A bit of bunching on a high-frequency corridor isn't a problem, it's better than not providing enough capacity.


Bunching is of course a major issue as it makes the line inefficient or exaggerates crowding through uneven distribution of riders. Of course bunching might be still better than providing insufficient capacities but both things are worse than upgrading to a mode of transport better suited for such ridership numbers. At these headways bus lines have serious operational deficiencies. An upgrade to a tram or lightrail line should be considered in such cases, or for the rabid rail opponents at least a true BRT service.



> London doesn't have the road geometry that's capable of handling 15m double-deckers, and if rail is the answer, buses remain the only option in the short term, and short term in rail planning cycles is measured in decades.


That is incorrect. If a tram line is the answer, that can be done in a few years from planning to opening, not decades unless some more sophisticated things like bridges and especially tunnels are needed on some parts. But of course, until then make the best of the suboptimal bus system.
I am not dismissive towards bus users. To accuse me of anti-bus snobbery is rather absurd given that I am a fairly happy regular bus user myself. Vienna has transitioned widely to articulatd buses a while ago (originally it also had some double deckers). Granted it has done so on a central bus line which also would better be transformed (back) into a tram line. But at least they upgraded from regular short buses to long ones a few years back. That made the line a lot less miserable for its users but it still has a reputation.


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## geogregor

Since we are in Berlin thread, what are the bus frequencies in Berlin?


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## Alexander Kanavin

You can see them here for various lines:


https://www.bvg.de/de/verbindungen/netzplaene-und-linien/bus



I haven't seen anything less than 5 minutes. 6/7/7 pattern is common.


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## Slartibartfas

Alexander Kanavin said:


> You can see them here for various lines:
> 
> 
> https://www.bvg.de/de/verbindungen/netzplaene-und-linien/bus
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't seen anything less than 5 minutes. 6/7/7 pattern is common.


Seems very reasonable.


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## LtBk

I used Berlin buses several times when I was visited back in May 2017. Overall I was satisfied with the buses over there.


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## NCT

Slartibartfas said:


> Bunching is of course a major issue as it makes the line inefficient or exaggerates crowding through uneven distribution of riders. Of course bunching might be still better than providing insufficient capacities but both things are worse than upgrading to a mode of transport better suited for such ridership numbers. At these headways bus lines have serious operational deficiencies. An upgrade to a tram or lightrail line should be considered in such cases, or for the rabid rail opponents at least a true BRT service.
> 
> That is incorrect. If a tram line is the answer, that can be done in a few years from planning to opening, not decades unless some more sophisticated things like bridges and especially tunnels are needed on some parts. But of course, until then make the best of the suboptimal bus system.
> I am not dismissive towards bus users. To accuse me of anti-bus snobbery is rather absurd given that I am a fairly happy regular bus user myself. Vienna has transitioned widely to articulatd buses a while ago (originally it also had some double deckers). Granted it has done so on a central bus line which also would better be transformed (back) into a tram line. But at least they upgraded from regular short buses to long ones a few years back. That made the line a lot less miserable for its users but it still has a reputation.


I don't wish to continue along a tangent but factual inaccuracies need to be corrected.

You contribute in enough threads to know that London buses use the largest appropriate vehicles on high-frequency routes, which in most cases mean 10.5m double deckers. London doesn't have the roads for Berlin-style 13.7m double deckers. I don't know why a 13.7m every 5 minutes is perfectly reasonable but a 10.5m every 3 isn't (a self correction - the 25 in question was more like every 4 minutes). Incidentally the M41 is Berlin is every 4 minutes.

Bunching isn't a problem with a very high frequency. As soon as bunching occurs 2 buses run together and waiting passengers can see both of them and they'll board the quieter one. Think of it as a virtually articulated double decker every 6 minutes. This is a lot better than on a 10-minute route where you can have a 16 minute and 4 minute gaps for a long time, in which case the second bus will end up carrying fresh air.

Trams only have value when they have significant segregation and can operate faster than buses. On traditional London streets all you'll achieve is buses are steel wheels with bus speeds bus reliability and bus-sized vehicles. Anyway, this isn't relevant in the Berlin context.

In any case, all this is irrelevant. It matters not what the base bus frequency is. The point is when there's an established well used service it doesn't make sense to make buses slower or downgrade the services without providing mass alternatives, and that's exactly what London did and by the sounds of it what Paris did. You and geogregor ignored this actual point and went off on an irrelevant tangent of what constitutes over bussing.

==========

Going back to the original point of the current discussion, the choice of tram vs u-bahn should be based on market characteristics and value for money, and not ideological positions on how much road space should be taken away from cars. Reducing road space for cars is a separate topic and is independent of whether there's a tram in the middle or an u-bahn underneath. I'm not against improving cycling facilities and reducing space for cars as long as they are not at the expense of buses. One wouldn't accept slower trams as collateral damage, one shouldn't do it with buses either.


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## Slartibartfas

NCT said:


> I don't wish to continue along a tangent but factual inaccuracies need to be corrected.
> 
> You contribute in enough threads to know that London buses use the largest appropriate vehicles on high-frequency routes, which in most cases mean 10.5m double deckers. London doesn't have the roads for Berlin-style 13.7m double deckers. I don't know why a 13.7m every 5 minutes is perfectly reasonable but a 10.5m every 3 isn't (a self correction - the 25 in question was more like every 4 minutes). Incidentally the M41 is Berlin is every 4 minutes.


I don't know the bus network of Berlin by heart, I admit it. So if they have 4 minute frequencies that seems to be pushing it and it should be considered if those lines wouldn't need transformation into tram or lightrail lines, or are those functionally already BRT lines? The latter can possibly handle higher frequencies and capacities due to elimination of interference by traffic and larger stops/stations. I know "BRT" isn't much a concept or name widely used in Europe but the name doesn't matter, it's about how it functions.


> Bunching isn't a problem with a very high frequency. As soon as bunching occurs 2 buses run together and waiting passengers can see both of them and they'll board the quieter one.


Maybe that works in London, it certainly doesn't work in Vienna that way. I don't know about Berliners.


> Trams only have value when they have significant segregation and can operate faster than buses.


I disagree. Trams are a mode that has overlapping but generally somewhat higher capacities where it works well. At the very same speed as a busline, they can simply handle those capacities where bus lines struggle and start to show various problems, bunching is one of them. The other is passanger transfer speed, especially if we are talking about double decker buses instead of articulated ones.

Why you think trams would be necessarily slower in a dense urban environment than buses I am not entirely sure. Trams are an in-between mode between buses and subway. It works best where both other modes struggle due to opposite reasons.

Regarding downgrading bus lines (rather upgrading them to tram lines where capacities make that a reasonable thing to do). I am not actually talking about downgrading bus lines. If selective opening of certain bus lanes to bicycles is considered downgrading I would love to see some data on that. We have shared lanes in Vienna and I really can't say I would have seen any substantial complications for buses due to it, or any slowing down.


> Going back to the original point of the current discussion, the choice of tram vs u-bahn should be based on market characteristics and value for money, and not ideological positions on how much road space should be taken away from cars. Reducing road space for cars is a separate topic and is independent of whether there's a tram in the middle or an u-bahn underneath. I'm not against improving cycling facilities and reducing space for cars as long as they are not at the expense of buses. One wouldn't accept slower trams as collateral damage, one shouldn't do it with buses either.


I do agree. "Taking away lanes from cars" is a poor argument in favour of tram lines, however just as "loss of lanes due to tram lines" is often a poor argument against them. Tram lines should be built on their own merits, or not.


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## Alexander Kanavin

London buses are useful for oyster-subsidized sightseeing (especially if you can grab the front row on the upper deck), but if you actually want to get somewhere, finding a vehicle that rolls on a track is a must.

When you build a metro line under a road, that's only used as an excuse to keep the road exactly as it was before - a combination of multi lane highway and a massive parking lot in the middle and on the sides. And some ridiculously narrow and slow cycling lanes, if you're lucky. It's not a separate topic at all, not in Berlin. The livability and pleasantness of the streets needs to be considered too, and not just how to achieve the most efficient way to move people.


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## flierfy

NCT said:


> Trams only have value when they have significant segregation and can operate faster than buses. On traditional London streets all you'll achieve is buses are steel wheels with bus speeds bus reliability and bus-sized vehicles.


Trams have a lot more advantages over buses, even in mixed traffic:

the steel wheel on rail is the system with the least rolling friction
being tied to an electric grid makes trams truly electric with the advantages of receiving power directly from a power source as well as returning recuperated energy back into the grid
running on tracks allows tram vehicle to be much longer
which allows more passengers to be moved
which increases the passenger/driver ratio and therefore increases the productivity of the driver
spreading the vehicle capacity over a greater length allows for more doors, which then helps to reduce dwell times
Trams are better than buses without being faster. In fact the insistence on spacial segregation from other surface traffic is hardly feasible on many streets and just prevents trams from being implemented.


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## geogregor

Slartibartfas said:


> Maybe that works in London,


It doesn't work in London.

Buses are inefficient way of moving people in dense core of the city centre. They are popular in London only because for political reasons they are kept cheap at the price of massive cross-subsidy from the underground revenue.

I don't know how anyone can seriously say that this is the best use of surface street:




























As far as I know Berlin has the same pricing regardless if one uses metro, trams or buses. Am I correct?



Alexander Kanavin said:


> London buses are useful for oyster-subsidized sightseeing (especially if you can grab the front row on the upper deck), but if you actually want to get somewhere, finding a vehicle that rolls on a track is a must.


Spot on


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## Baron Hirsch

I had noticed that due to the cheaper prices of busses in London, some poorer passengers prefer a long but slow bus ride to the underground. In Berlin there is no difference except for the short distance ticket, which is valid for 6 tram or bus stops, or 3 S- or U-Bahn stops. It is not valid on regional trains. Whether that works out in favor of taking buses or not is completely random, as there are bus lines where intermediate stops are much more frequent than one between U-Bahn stations, but also others where there is no additional stop between U-Bahn stations, if metro and bus run parallel. 

And concerning the bus picture: ouch, no, as the frequency is concerned, Kurfüstendamm occasionally looks like that with several parallel lines. As far as single most overcrowded / congested bus line is concerned, the above mentioned M41 is the hottest candidate to my knowledge (now that TXL with flight passengers fighting to get their suitcases on is a thing of the past), even though M41 runs mostly only about a block parallel to U7. M41 can unfortunately not easily be converted into a tram, as it does not come anywhere near the existing grid, except at Hauptbahnhof, where it exits the car tunnel, which could not be used by a tram.


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## Slartibartfas

Baron Hirsch said:


> I had noticed that due to the cheaper prices of busses in London, some poorer passengers prefer a long but slow bus ride to the underground. In Berlin there is no difference except for the short distance ticket, which is valid for 6 tram or bus stops, or 3 S- or U-Bahn stops. It is not valid on regional trains. Whether that works out in favor of taking buses or not is completely random, as there are bus lines where intermediate stops are much more frequent than one between U-Bahn stations, but also others where there is no additional stop between U-Bahn stations, if metro and bus run parallel.
> 
> And concerning the bus picture: ouch, no, as the frequency is concerned, Kurfüstendamm occasionally looks like that with several parallel lines. As far as single most overcrowded / congested bus line is concerned, the above mentioned M41 is the hottest candidate to my knowledge (now that TXL with flight passengers fighting to get their suitcases on is a thing of the past), even though M41 runs mostly only about a block parallel to U7. M41 can unfortunately not easily be converted into a tram, as it does not come anywhere near the existing grid, except at Hauptbahnhof, where it exits the car tunnel, which could not be used by a tram.


Sounds like a lame excuse to me. A tram would certainly need some modifications and in the case of that tunnel an alternative alignment above ground. There seem to be plenty of options for that, even fairly close to the tunnel alignment. As far as I can see it might be even fairly easy to cross the Hauptbahnhof at ground level. But that's just me and a superficial look at the maps. I am sure proper planners could come up with a reasonable tram project for the entire corridor.


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## Alexander Kanavin

Given that Berlin is trying for many years to approve an S-Bahn line between the same two points (Hbf/Potsdamer Platz), with all kinds of special interests and concerned groups putting up obstacles, a tram project would be a non-starter at this point.


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## Slartibartfas

Fair point even though a tram would serve a different set of demands than an S-Bahn.


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## Baron Hirsch

Slartibartfas said:


> Sounds like a lame excuse to me. A tram would certainly need some modifications and in the case of that tunnel an alternative alignment above ground. There seem to be plenty of options for that, even fairly close to the tunnel alignment. As far as I can see it might be even fairly easy to cross the Hauptbahnhof at ground level. But that's just me and a superficial look at the maps. I am sure proper planners could come up with a reasonable tram project for the entire corridor.


Oh their lack of imagination is worse than that. The previous senator of traffic recognized that buses in Spandau, a far away outer district of Berlin, what in Paris would be a city to itself, are overcrowded. But rather than planning for a local network and depot for a rather local problem, the draft foresees that first 11 km of tram line have to be built through sparsely populated green districts where a bus every 20 minutes is at present considered sufficient (Saatwinkler Damm) have to be built, in order for Spandau's bus problem to be solved. As the last senate managed to complete 2.5 km tram rails in 5 years, you can imagine how likely this is. 
As for M41, part of its success story is that there is no frequent rail link between Potsdamer Platz and Hauptbahnhof, so if the S-Bahn ever comes, it would still be a very popular diagonal line through Kreuzberg and Neukölln. Some of the planned priority tram extensions cut across its route, so maybe it will in the long run become feasible to connect part of its route to the tram grid.


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## Slartibartfas

Ok, so it is not so much local traffic but a gaping hole in the high priority network? How easy would such an S-Bahn be to implement? Just some modifications to existing infrastructure or a full blown new underground heavy rail corridor?


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## Attus

Slartibartfas said:


> Ok, so it is not so much local traffic but a gaping hole in the high priority network? How easy would such an S-Bahn be to implement? Just some modifications to existing infrastructure or a full blown new underground heavy rail corridor?


Do you mean Hbf - Potsdamer Platz? It's under construction. 








S21 (Berlin) – Wikipedia







de.wikipedia.org




Or did you mean something different?


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## Slartibartfas

No, I am just a bit clueless about current projects in Berlin 
Yes, I was referring to S21. According to what I read there it isn't under construction but merely planned so far. What is under construction is the segment north of the Hbf. Or did I get something wrong.

To answer my own question it seems to be a bit of both, modifications and entirely new tunneling.


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## NCT

London's road geometry wouldn't support 30-metre vehicles - a 30-metre tram platform every 400m is not feasible (everything has to be PRM-compliant on new-build, so just opening doors in the middle of the road is not an option), and trams will struggle getting across junctions (a 10-metre bus can just squeeze into the gap on the other side in the last second of a green phase). A street-running London tram system would be limited to bus-sized vehicles and likely double deckers, so no dwell time advantage either. Bus capacities, bus speeds, bus fare levels, what's the Treasury paying all the capex for?

Back to Berlin. Given that many of Berlin's Metrobus routes are former tram lines, dismantled by West Berlin authorities on dubious ideological grounds, there does seem to be case of restoring some (or all?) of them as tram lines. The straight dual-carriageways with generous central reservations are perfect for longer tram vehicles. I wouldn't be overly bothered about plugging into the existing tram network as a primary goal.

The M41 does parallel the U7 (indirectly) for 6 stops. U7's awkward routing (being a West Berlin project) must make M41's direct service to Potsdamer Platz and Hbf attractive.

Given that S21 is on the horizon, would it be acceptable for a tramified M41 to run to Potsdamer Platz only with a single change to Hbf?

Just come across this article - it makes some interesting points, including there being too many underutilised north-south lines between Hbf and Potsdamer Platz as it is ...


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## Alexander Kanavin

The article does not account for ongoing reconstruction of Dresdner Bahn, due to open at the end of 2025, which will greatly increase the utilization of the 4 track heavy rail tunnel, including a very frequent airport express service. And there's also a structural provision for attaching a reconstructed heavy rail line to Potsdam via Zehlendorf - you can see it from the train window if you pay attention. The S21 as a separate set of tracks does have merit - please keep in mind that Potsdamer Platz S-bahn station is already fully constructed with 4 tracks enabling cross-platform transfer, only the tunnel connection from Hbf is missing (and no, it is _not_ under construction, despite various sources claiming something else).


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## lechevallierpatrick

The article above mentioned says that the won't be any stop between Hbf and Potsdamer Platz (I mean Bundestag).Is it true?


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## Alexander Kanavin

Bundestag S bahn station will not happen. U5 provides a stop.

Perleberger Brucke will, though.


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## Baron Hirsch

_Concerning the northern branch of s21, u/c_:
Unfortunately, there has so far only been lip service to the erection of a station at Perleberger Brücke. Neither the former senate nor the present one, which otherwise did not fail to reiterate every ongoing public transport project, ever committed themselves to this station; Deutsche Bahn is twiddling its thumbs, waiting for a political decision on this. my impression is unless public pressure ever pushes the senate, it will never happen.

_Concerning the southern branch of s21, planned:_
By waiting decades to complete the infrastructure designs of the new government center, unfortunately the costs and difficulties have skyrocketed. Among others, the vice-president of the parliament, a bit of a nutcase, insists that there should be no stop near the Reichstag and has made unfounded suggestions that tunneling under the building would make it collapse. This is the main reason why planning has dragged out in the past couple of years.

_Concerning the article:_
The article's author is not as unique a genius as he pretends to be. The extension of the Görlitzer Bahn, the S-Bahn lines from the Southeast via the former Görlitzer Bahnhof and onwards via Kochstraße to Hauptbahnhof was just a few months ago suggested by the public transport passengers' pressure group IGEB. Their line is identical with the northern variant the article writer suggests. The only thing they got better is that this should be not an either or; in fact, they suggest a branch off of S21 at Potsdamer Platz to serve this tunnel S-Bahn to the Görlitzer Bahn: https://www.igeb.org/files/SIGNAL2020-1-KreuzbergerTunnel.pdf

The article is correct to suggest that S21 is a modified version of what Albert Speer had envisaged as infrastructure for the post-WWII triumphant capitol, renamed Germania. What both he and IGEB fail to mention is that this S-Bahn tunnel extending the Görlitzer Bahn into the city center is, too. Unfortunately, I could not find an online map of Germania, but I posses a hard copy and you can definitely find all these lines there, plus the location of several government buildings today are identical with the location of government infrastructure Speer had envisioned. This is less because of a crypto-fascist inclination of today's politicians, but rather because except for the megalomaniac architecture and propagandist buildings, Speer in many points made use of preexisting urban planning from the 1920s, when the city was booming and considering how to extend infrastructure. In the past 30 years, when planners once again had to come up with ideas how to build new government administration centers and concomitant infrastructure, they just come to the same results. The idea for a tunnel from Görlitzer Bahn to center can already be found in the 1920s.


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## Slartibartfas

NCT said:


> London's road geometry wouldn't support 30-metre vehicles - a 30-metre tram platform every 400m is not feasible (everything has to be PRM-compliant on new-build, so just opening doors in the middle of the road is not an option)


Just wondering, would a fully accessible solution like the one linked below be illegal in London and why on earth should it be illegal, in case it is?









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




goo.gl





Given that trams are more flexible than large non-articulated busses and not that different from Double decker buses.

And here a fully accessible stop on a narrow bent street:









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




goo.gl







> Back to Berlin. Given that many of Berlin's Metrobus routes are former tram lines, dismantled by West Berlin authorities on dubious ideological grounds, there does seem to be case of restoring some (or all?) of them as tram lines. The straight dual-carriageways with generous central reservations are perfect for longer tram vehicles. I wouldn't be overly bothered about plugging into the existing tram network as a primary goal.


Of course, that does make things easier.


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## NCT

Slartibartfas said:


> Just wondering, would a fully accessible solution like the one linked below be illegal in London and why on earth should it be illegal, in case it is?
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I highly doubt this would get past the Rail Safety and Standards Board or the Health and Safety executive.

The kind of roads we are talking about in London have busy all-day lorry and van traffic. The safety risk would be considered too high.

I think the example you've given are firmly in the derogation territory for retrofitting existing systems with 'grandfather rights' and such practices would not be allowed for new systems.

Also about how bus lanes work in London - a lot of them are peak only because these lanes are needed in off-peak hours for loading and parking. Buses uses bus lanes in the peaks and general lanes off-peak, and you can't provide that flexibility with a street-running tram.



> Given that trams are more flexible than large non-articulated busses and not that different from Double decker buses.
> 
> And here a fully accessible stop on a narrow bent street:
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It's not about the bendiness of a particular street, it's corners. Most London junctions have straight corners which means you end up having to do this if you had tram tracks:









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.co.uk





A London on-road tram system would end up looking like Lisbon's 28.


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## Slartibartfas

NCT said:


> I think the example you've given are firmly in the derogation territory for retrofitting existing systems with 'grandfather rights' and such practices would not be allowed for new systems.


Well, it would be hard to tell, given that there aren't that many new lines in Vienna. I don't have the expertise if it is as you say or rather that it isn't built like that anymore unless there is a compelling case for doing it. All I know is that this design is perfectly safe to use in everyday situations, with full accessibility also for mobility impaired people.



> It's not about the bendiness of a particular street, it's corners. Most London junctions have straight corners which means you end up having to do this if you had tram tracks:
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> A London on-road tram system would end up looking like Lisbon's 28.


Can you show me an example of a London crossing of a potential tram corridor where that would be necessary according to you? I have a hard time imagening it. In all of Vienna I don't know of a single location like that and the network here is very sizeable and not all crossings are easy, like this one:









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




goo.gl


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## YankaT

Dear Community,

in the recent years in Berlin and in many other cities in Germany pilot projects with autonomous buses have started. I am studying Transportation Economics at the TU Dresden and I am interested in the public's opinion of autonomous driving, especially autonomous buses. I am doing a survey on the topic and it would be great if you could take part. I am looking for German speaking participants who also live in Germany. Thank you, I hope that my survey would be interesting for you!

Survey Link


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## geogregor

NCT said:


> I highly doubt this would get past the Rail Safety and Standards Board or the Health and Safety executive.


That sentence explains why so many things are difficult in the UK. Inflexible regulation in regards of public transport, at least partially driven by litigation culture seeping to us from the US.

But then if you want to clad buildings in flammable materials then sure, go ahead...



> The kind of roads we are talking about in London have busy all-day lorry and van traffic. The safety risk would be considered too high.


What safety risk? Of the tram itself? Or raised platforms? We do have raised pedestrian crossings already. 

Raised street tram stops work in many countries, they would work in the UK too.

Interestingly in Poland we call them "Vienna stops"  



> A London on-road tram system would end up looking like Lisbon's 28.


Total nonsense. There is plenty of straight corridors where normal modern trams would fit easily. Oxford Street comes to mind, but there are more. And we don't necessarily need the largest trams available, mid-sized vehicles would do just fine.

Sorry guys for off-topic in this thread but I can't leave some of the comments unanswered.


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## Zaz965

why does s-bahn use third rail, if the most of s-bahn alike in the other cities are used to use overhead wires?


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## TM_Germany

The S-Bahn systems in Berlin and Hamburg are pre-war systems that run entirely on their on their own infrastructure (although Hamburg is now changing to a dual mode and mixed infrastructure approach for suburban extensions) and as such are basically express metro systems that use the thrid rail electrification that was usual for urban rail systems in the 1920s.
The S-Bahn systems in other cities were founded in the post-war times and are usually part of the normal heavy rail network and extend much farther into the region. As such they use normal mainline rail electrification.


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## Attus

TM_Germany said:


> The S-Bahn systems in Berlin and Hamburg are pre-war systems that run entirely on their on their own infrastructure (although Hamburg is now changing to a dual mode and mixed infrastructure approach for suburban extensions) and as such are basically express metro systems that use the thrid rail ekectrification that was usual for urban rail systems in the 1920s.
> The S-Bahn systems in other cities were founded in the post-war times and are usually part of the normal heavy rail network and extend much farther into the region. As such they use normal mainline rail electrification.


Eeerrr ... the main reason is, that the Berlin S-Bahn was electrified in the late 20's, when the main lines have not been electrified yet. So using the same kind of electrification as the main lines would have been impossible. All the rest (except for Hamburg) were converted/constructed when the main lines, or at least many of them, have already been electrified, so it was obvious to use the very same system. Partially were lines converted to S-Bahn that has already been electrified before.


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## TM_Germany

Yes, that's essentially what I wrote...


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## Zaz965

@TM_Germany , @Attus , I didn't know s-bahn in berlin is so old


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## Baron Hirsch

The Berlin S-Bahn lines date back to the 1870s. The electrification and 99% separation of tracks from other trains dates from the 1920s. At present, there is only one place where a diesel line shares the S-Bahn tracks, a measure to compensate another line being cut due to the building of the wall (Heidekrautbahn). 

However, in their plans for the Priegnitz-Express and S-Bahn to Velten, apparently Berlin and Brandenburg states apparently favor a solution to again use multi-purpose, double-electrified tracks. Was on the news a few days ago, do not remember the details...


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## Balkanmiddleeastern

Well, Hamburg isn't since 2007 and also till 2002 the line to Bergedorf wasn't seperared


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## Slartibartfas

Regarding the claim before that centre road stops without island platforms would be a safety hazard and not allowed for new stops. This is clearly wrong for Vienna. There is a new stop of that kind which had been previously a centre stop with island platforms but which has been actually transformed into a stop with no island platforms and elevated road lanes instead. On top of it, it even features a crossing on one side (one way of course so no car can enter from there and it only can be accessed from one direction as well.)









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




goo.gl





If that can't be done in the UK that is rather not because it were unsafe but because of obstructionist red tape in the UK.


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## Alexander Kanavin

The S-Bahn and electric regional trains share a platform in Birkenwerder (another DDR relic I think that requires special arrangement in the handling of the currents), and also S-Bahn and long distance track cross each other in Konigs Wusterhausen. Otherwise yes, fully segregated.


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## NCT

Slartibartfas said:


> Regarding the claim before that centre road stops without island platforms would be a safety hazard and not allowed for new stops. This is clearly wrong for Vienna. There is a new stop of that kind which had been previously a centre stop with island platforms but which has been actually transformed into a stop with no island platforms and elevated road lanes instead. On top of it, it even features a crossing on one side (one way of course so no car can enter from there and it only can be accessed from one direction as well.)
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> If that can't be done in the UK that is rather not because it were unsafe but because of obstructionist red tape in the UK.


The problem with this kind of an arrangement is the waiting and boarding/alighting environments are separate, which is a downgrade from common modern setup. I can also see legal difficulties in defining right-of-way - at which point does traffic have to give way - it's much more complicated and open to legalistic interpretation than signalled or zebra crossings. You have a doddering old lady with a shopping trolley or someone running for a tram without looking both crossing in front of vans, HGVs and Uber drivers who are the worst behaved road users. These are additional risk factors that are not present with traditional bus stops or island tram stops with controlled crossings (you know you wouldn't 'run for a tram' in that kind of an environment). You might consider these to be low risks but it's the setting of a precedent that'll probably be the sticking point. I just can't see someone risking arguing for setting a precedent in a court.

The UK (despite Brexiting) has always tended to take a more 'purist' and legalistic approach to health and safety. Another example is the very low and narrow island platforms accessed by crossing at grade on rural railways common in Austria and Switzerland. Such arrangements wouldn't even be considered by NR/RSSB - again, not wanting to set a precedent probably plays a big part. And I can't say I disagree with that slightly puristic approach, and I think even the post-Brexit political environment will struggle to change that.

They are considered unsafe in the context of UK health and safety culture, but they are still objectively considered unsafe.

Put it this way, the likelihood and appetite for building buses-on-rail (i.e. non-light rail) types of tram networks in Britain are close to zero.


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## NCT

Back on topic, in the tram / U-bahn debate in the Berlin context, what are the main priorities for investment? I can see a few themes:

1. former East Berlin areas with sparse u-Bahn coverage but comprehensive tram coverage
2. a couple of 'obvious' U-bahn westward extensions (U5 and U1)
3. High-frequency Metrobus routes (mainly in West Berlin areas) running on wide routes that appear to be prime candidates for tram conversion

1. Journey times to Mitte seem to be capped at around 30 minutes anyway. Is there a capacity case for sending u-bahn to North East Berlin? Extending U1/U3 looks 'obvious' on a map but that doesn't really help getting into Mitte

2. There have been worries about M10 extension undermining the case for westward extension of U5 to Tegel. I'd imagine any westward extension of U1 either happens or doesn't as it wouldn't make sense to have a short tram stub away from the rest of the tram network.

3. Most Metrobus routes are in former West Berlin areas and are never far away from U-bahn or S-bahn lines anyway. If conversion to a rail-based mode happens I don't imagine these lines generating U-bahn volumes.

What I'm trying to say is, I can only see one instance where there's a genuine choice between building tram or U-bahn, and in other instances the mode choice seems clear and it's just a case of whether to do it or not.


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## Alexander Kanavin

Berlin, people, Berlin! If you want to write another post about London buses, or Vienna tram or whatnot, please stop for a moment, and consider if you should keep your hands away from the keyboard instead.


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## Alargule

Maybe it's time for a more general thread for discussions like these...


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## Slartibartfas

TM_Germany said:


> Yeah the Greens are shooting themselves in the foot here. They are against any sort of transport infrastructure that could actually have a large enough impact to evoke a modal shift. Be it HSR or subways, if it was up to them only Trams were built.


Are they anti-inner-urban-S-Bahn too? Or would it be ok to brand the U-Bahn as S-Bahn. Both seem to be third rail anyway. 

I do agree with you that there is no way tram only would be a good choice for Berlin given its size. A good combination of bus, tram, U-Bahn and S-Bahn make very much sense, also in a city of the scale of Berlin.


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## Alexander Kanavin

TM_Germany said:


> Yeah the Greens are shooting themselves in the foot here. They are against any sort of transport infrastructure that could actually have a large enough impact to evoke a modal shift. Be it HSR or subways, if it was up to them only Trams were built.


Trams are less important than severe restrictions on driving private cars where the trams are available, thank you. And consider that forcing employees to commute to an office is now just outdated and makes a business less competitive in attracting skilled workers: covid has shown that companies do not collapse by working from home.

This is how Berlin should be:








Berlin is planning a car-free area larger than Manhattan


The citizen-driven plan that the city is considering now would create the largest car-free area in a city anywhere in the world.




www.fastcompany.com


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## Baron Hirsch

About the development of different rail systems in Berlin on the political agenda:

*1) Subways*
as I a few weeks ago and several others in response to the recent questions have written: two single-stop extensions, of *U2 to Pankow Kirche and U3 to Mexikoplatz* have a rather clear green light. These will improve the interchange possibilities for these outer districts. Cost/benefit ratio is excellent, but overall impact on public transport is marginal. 
*U8 extension to Märkisches Viertel *will be possibly 3 stations. A major banlieue here is in need of better connections to the city, but all preliminary studies have not managed to get a good cost/benefit ratio, as the banlieue is spread out and does not have the single axis or square begging for a metro station. Let us see whether with a new political agenda, a planner manages to find a more inspired solution here. 
*U7: the airport extension* will only serve southern banlieues of Neukölln. From northern Neukölln, there is the S-Bahn, and most other parts of the city will be well-advised to use one of the faster regional trains. I really wonder how they will get their cost/benefit ratio above 0. 
*U7: Heerstraße Nord* As far as the extension in Spandau is concerned: this district is growing fast, a lot of it sprawl outside of the actual center. While downtown Spandau has excellent and multiple connections to actual Berlin, these outer areas are kind of lost. Problem is the sprawl: there is not one neat line that needs to be connected to Spandau station for S-, U-, and RE/RB trains to Berlin, but several places. An U-Bahn extension will therefore likely have to zigzag to several spots and will never be able to replace bus lines entirely. Therefore some have suggested a local Spandau tram network instead. 
My pet peeve is that *U5 *will not be extended to the west, even though there are several condensed areas there in desperate need of an East-to-West line: Moabit, Eastern Charlottenburg, and there are considerable previous constructions alreadyl aid out for this. A silly zigzag tram line extension is u/c and in planning instead.
Anyways, none of this will be inaugurated before the 2030s. 

*2) Trams*
This was the main agenda of the previous senator, and several lines are now seriously being planned. Some have already been mentioned here. First of all, the zigzag extension of *M10* into *Moabit, Charlottenburg,* and onwards to the former *Tegel Airport t*akes up much planning capacity and is designed to do what the long-planned U5 western extension was supposed to do. I really wonder if anyone will calmly sit through a 45 minute tram ride from the Urban Tech Republic to Hauptbahnhof, as the tram changes direction so often and will never be able to build up speed anywhere. 
Another line is the *M4* extension to *Potsdamer Platz*, parallel but possibly faster than U2. This might be another coffin nail for the downtown U3, but to be honest, I could not see that as a priority at the moment. A straightforward connection down Leipziger Straße and offering direct services from Eastern Prenzlauer Berg and Weißensee is definitely called for. 
Another good measure is the *M10* diagonal extension from Warschauer Brücke to *Hermannplatz*, replacing mostly M29 bus. This was on the agenda since the wall come down, high time it actually happened. 
Otherwise, connecting the outer lines of existing tram routes in *Weißensee and Pankow* suburbs is on the senate's to-do list. A long line in the middle of nowhere to connect *Spandau *to the tram network (11 km!) is under planning, but will probably get axed if the U-Bahn to Heerstraße is approved. All these trams are not happening before 2028-2031. see https://www.meinetram.de/de/Schoene-Aussichten-Unsere-Neubaustreckenplanung for details and sketches. 

*3) S- and Regionalbahn*
One must admit that while U-Bahns are not high on the agenda, the new senate has plans for S- and regional trains. 
*East:*
As a fig leaf to justify tearing away a large city forest (*Wuhlheide*) for a new ring road, the senate intends to erect an S-Bahn track in parallel to long-distance tracks there. 
There is also to be a parallel track extension to *S75* in the northeast.
Southwest:
Reviving the dormant *Stammbahn* (Zehlendorf-Potsdam direttissimo) as a Regionalbahn line, potentially to be extended in parallel to S1 towards Berlin Hauptbahnhof. 
*Inner city: * 
*S15 *(formerly S21): the u/c Wedding/Westhafen - Hauptbahnhof is to continue to Potsdamer Platz, Gleisdreieck, and Yorckstraße.
*Spandau/Northeast:*
The lion's share of interest is once again here. 
Reviving the dormant *Siemensbahn* as western extension of S15 (S21).
Extending this line, probably elevated or in tunnel, to *Wasserstadt Spandau* banlieue. A preliminary feasibility study a few days ago came to a positive perspective for this project.
Reviving the now freight only *Bötzowbahn* as an S-Bahn line, circling out of Spandau Station northeastwards to Johannesstift. The financing of the study has just been agreed. Could even be linked to Wasserstadt Spandau to form a circle line. 
Building a parallel S-Bahn track westwards from Spandau Station along the *Hamburg-bound line *for a few stops. 

There is also the *Heidekrautbahn* and other projects ongoing, in planning, or being mulled, but this post is already too l long. See i2030 – Mehr Schiene für Berlin & Brandenburg for more on S-/RE infrastructure plans.


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## Alexander Kanavin

Yes, the fully complete cross-platform double-decker station in Jungfernheide goes to waste. Still, at least we're out of a deadlock where neither U5 nor tram gets done. Do keep in mind that U-Bahn adds overhead compared to tram: more navigating corridors and stairs, and stations are usually spaced further apart so you have to walk longer on the ground level too.


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## Alexander Kanavin

There's a map with possible options for Siemensbahn:

















Verlängerung der Siemensbahn - i2030







www.i2030.de


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## Slartibartfas

The M10 appears to be an awkward concept. Forgive me if I am misunderstanding the PT layout of Berlin, but it seems as if it is designed primarily as a connector to the existing U7. That's fine and all but the U7 connects only towards the southern centre propely and not to the norhtner and norhtern-central parts. And givent he crooked line layout it looks like the riding time would be quite prohibitive for all the way to the Hbf.


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## Alexander Kanavin

Baron Hirsch said:


> First of all, the zigzag extension of *M10* into *Moabit, Charlottenburg,* and onwards to the former *Tegel Airport t*akes up much planning capacity and is designed to do what the long-planned U5 western extension was supposed to do. I really wonder if anyone will calmly sit through a 45 minute tram ride from the Urban Tech Republic to Hauptbahnhof, as the tram changes direction so often and will never be able to build up speed anywhere.


I beg to differ. First, the map does show that it will be easily up to speed between Tegel and Junfernheide, as there are no sharp turns and barely any stops. Second, if you want to go to Hbf quickly, Jungfernheide will provide both S-Bahn and regional trains going there as fast as possible.


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## Baron Hirsch

Thanks, Alex, for the map. I would hope they actually decide to make an elevated crossing over the Havel. Then again, this is a rather pretty area, and there would probably be some resistance, and the S-Bahn station for Wasserstadt would be more remote than in the tunnel variations. Also, do I read correctly that "Weitere Planungen für die Verlängerung der Siemensbahn werden im Kontext einer gesamthaften Verkehrserschließung und der Straßenbahnverbindung im Korridor zwischen Urban Tech Republic und Rathaus Spandau geprüft. Hierdurch wird eine ausgewogene Abwägung hinsichtlich der zu realisierenden Verkehrsmittel möglich sein." to mean: we might just decide that all of this is too expensive and build the 11km tram line through a park area instead?
As for S's and Alex' remarks about northern M10: yes, essentially this will be two lines, one for people getting away from Urban Tech Republic and changing onto the S15 (S21), Ringbahn, Regionalbahn, or U7 at Jungfernheide, and another line serving some neighborhoods in Eastern Charlottenburg. This would not have been much different if U5 had been extended via Jungfernheide to UTR, it is a curve, and there is no more efficient way to connect this. However, U5 with much faster traveling times than the zigzag extension of M10 through Eastern Charlottenburg and Moabit could have probably warranted skipping a change at Jungfernheide, and staying on for an only slightly longer ride. 
As far as long descents as a turnoff for metros is concerned, in principle I would agree, thinking of stations in London, Paris, Kiev, Istanbul etc. However, this usually does not hold true for Berlin. Most stations are a short single flight of stairs/escalators/elevators underground. Even new stations, such as Rotes Rathaus, can be reached at least as easily as a tram stop in the middle of the street, where one has to wait for the (in Berlin interminably slow) pedestrian green light. Also, the endless long planning phases for tram extensions in recent years goes to disprove the claim that tramways can be made a reality quickly, whereas only subways would be slow to materialize. Don't get me wrong, I am not dogmatic on that matter, there are some very useful tram projects under way, but just wish for some dogmas to be reconsidered.


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## Alexander Kanavin

I also wonder what they're going to do with Gartenfeld terminus building. It pretty much blocks any above ground extension, so Gartenfeld station would have to be rebuilt under ground, and then there's a canal to cross just after.


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## TM_Germany

You could probably keep the terminal building and shift the tracks and platforms elevated to the north-east.


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## lechevallierpatrick

Good news for anybody who like me knows and likes Berlin:The first E-Doppeldecker Bus could be running in Berlin in 2026!Conceivable is a fleet of around 430 buses for which up to 40 charging points would have to be set up in the network.....(before 1989 there were still over 1000 Doppeldecker Buses on the streets of Westberlin).I got the news from the Berlin press (20.1.2022 Ndeutschland).


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## hkskyline

Berlin U5 Unter den Linden by Kevin Hackert, on Flickr

Berlin U5 Unter den Linden by Kevin Hackert, on Flickr

Berlin U5 Unter den Linden by Kevin Hackert, on Flickr

Berlin U5 Unter den Linden by Kevin Hackert, on Flickr

Berlin U5 Unter den Linden by Kevin Hackert, on Flickr

Berlin U5 Museumsinsel by Kevin Hackert, on Flickr

Berlin U5 Museumsinsel by Kevin Hackert, on Flickr


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## Darryl

Those are some classy subway stations right there


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## TM_Germany




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## MainzBerliner

TM_Germany said:


>


Ja, Reece's Videos are always great to watch .


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## TM_Germany

Some updates of the Berling Hbf - U Turmstraße Tram extension.

On most of the route the street has been ripped open:




A switch will be located here:


Some rails and sleepers are already on site:






Here, a first segment of track seem to already have been installed:


Some catenary poles have already been installed:


Works haven't started on a couple of segments though, like here near the end of the extension:


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## Zaz965

Germany at the end of the 19th century / before WWII...


^^ Continuation... Commercial buildings. Kronenstrasse, 10 Ritterstrasse, 78 Bay windows Berliner Bank Facade details Department store Industriepalast Insurance company building Peek and Cloppenburg department store Full-size pic Wertheim store...




www.skyscrapercity.com


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## MiaM

NCT said:


> Also about how bus lanes work in London - a lot of them are peak only because these lanes are needed in off-peak hours for loading and parking. Buses uses bus lanes in the peaks and general lanes off-peak, and you can't provide that flexibility with a street-running tram.


Just do a switcheroo and it would work. In each direction one lane with tram tracks that in peak hours only used for public transit and during off peak used for all vehicles. Another lane only used for non-public transit during peak hours, used for parking and whatnot during off-peak hours.

(Side track; Although technically possible to mix trams and other road vehicles in the same lane, it causes more wear on the tram track so if there is enough space it's a good idea to not run other vehicles there (and in particular heavy vehicles that run frequently, like high traffic deliveries, bus lines and whatnot).



NCT said:


> It's not about the bendiness of a particular street, it's corners. Most London junctions have straight corners which means you end up having to do this if you had tram tracks:
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> A London on-road tram system would end up looking like Lisbon's 28.


A regular bus would never be able to make that turn. One of the great things with vehicles on rail as compared to road vehicles is that all wheels automatically turn in the correct direction on rail vehicles. Thus if a really short rail vehicle can rung through a tight and narrow turn, in principle a train of unlimited length could technically run there.

Also when it comes to the length of a tram, as long as you regulate traffic so you have enough room for the tram after each interchange without getting stuck, you can run really long trams. You just need to for example have detectors that checks how much free space there is, won't let other vehicles enter that lane, and when there is enough space the tram is allowed to pass through the interchange.

A great thing to do is also to simply avoid those turns. Untangle the network so you don't have those turns. It will likely also result in a network that is more efficient to use, except for special cases like buildings/areas that are huge passenger generators.

Since this is a Berlin thread, I highly doubt that there are any places with such tight corners that would be relevant to route a bus or tram line through.


Btw, re a previous post in this tread about traffic signal priority. It might be effective to make a blog post, youtube video, write to the old school media or whatnot, and in a simple and understandable way, but yet with exact calculation (perhaps as a separate appendix or whatnot) show how many extra trams (and buses) are needed due to more vehicles needed to do the same work on a line if the time for a full loop on the line is extended due to waiting at traffic lights. (The same can also be said for places where buses and trams have to slow down due to for example bad track/road maintenance or noise complaints from neighbors or whatnot). For most private cars, this is irrelevant as the car will be driven the same route even if it is a few minutes faster or slower (unless there is a travel time gain by using a different route, so it is always worth calculating which roads will likely be used after changes in the road network)

This is a cost that the city / tax payers / public transit fare payers have to pay extra for. And this totally ignores the socioeconomic cost of traveling taking longer time. (And sure, travel time for the traveler also costs more if a car journey is slowed down, but then 1-4 persons are slowed down while a tram or bus has way more passengers, at least during the decently busy hours). Also, the trams have to pass each intersection eventually, so there is no overall road capacity gain in having them wait except for the rate case when you force two trams in opposite direction to pass the intersection at the same time. A traffic light that has a good control system will possibly abort the current cycle early or let it run as is, and then insert a cycle where the trams have a go, and then return to the cycle that would follow if a tram hadn't shown up. As almost all intersections allow several other vehicle routes to have a green light while trams pass the intersection, the control system can keep track of which direction that has had a decent chance to pass the intersection during the past few minutes, and compare that to sensors detecting presence and amount of traffic for each direction. (Nowadays with cameras and image recognition the control system could even tell which vehicles that want to go in each direction in a multi direction lane by detecting the blinkers). Btw, it's highly advisable to use the same system for detecting/indicationg that trams, buses and emergency vehicles want to drive in a specific direction, and also use this system for controlling switches. Of course only trams should send out the signals that make switches change position. (In Gothenburg a bus accidentally got the programming for a tram in it's system, so when it drove around it would not only trigger the traffic lights but also make the tram switches change direction  )

Re Bicycles. It's not always a great idea to have bike lanes along the large roads with many private and public transit motor vehicles if there are parallel (-ish) roads that are much quieter. See for example one of the videos that the Youtuber Not Just Bikes has about this topic. Unfortunately that requires some education of the general public and also great separation between bikes and pedestrians, as pedestrians in most parts of the world generally are incredibly bad at following the rules when it comes to not just haphazardly walking in to a bike lane. My probably unpopular opinion is that there should be a fine for pedestrians who collides with a bike where the bike were following the traffic rules.

Re autonomous buses: Anecdotal evidence, but the one in Rotterdam (at least the one that were there in 2014) where technically a cool thing but the ride quality were rather bad, way worse than a regular bus.

Re super slow progress on various infrastructure projects: I see a couple of reasons. One is that (almost?) everyone who works with infrastructure drive a car or has at least good experience of being a passenger in a car, and will thus automatically somewhat understand how the infrastructure has to be built in order for it to work. There are also loads of standards and existing implementations to look at. When it comes to something as simple as bike infrastructure a qualified guess is that it's fairly common for those who design and those who build the infrastructure usually haven't been using a bike since they were kids. (A great example is when a spokes person for the state infrastructure authority in Sweden claimed that bikes were driving at 70km/h on the bridge "Älvsborgsbron" in Gothenburg. Anyone who has used a bike as an adult realizes that 70km/h is more or less an impossible speed on a bridge that don't have major slopes. As a bonus the speed limit on the bridge is actually 70km/h so if a bike actually managed to reach that speed it would had been within the speed limit). When it comes to public transit there probably are more who are regular users, but still probably don't have that much experience in how things should be done. Also there are always some road projects going on. If not new projects or major rebuilds there will always at least be maintenance and minor rebuilds going on somewhere. Thus everyone has some kind of fresh experience. With public transit infrastructure projects start, eventually gets completed, and then no similar project happens for a while and people who did work with the last project might have changed jobs, forgotten at least details and whatnot and thus at least some things has to be re learned. As icing on the cake those who work on a particular project usually gain nothing if they finish the project on time. Rather if the project is delayed they are needed within the project and thus secure their job position for a while. London has at least in one case done something that I think is really smart - just specify exactly what outcome they want but not the specific details on how to accomplish the goal. There is a post on the blog London Reconnections about how an extra entrance and a new (replacement) platform are being built for the Northern Line at Bank station, where the winning bid had suggested a sequence of operation that would be more efficient than what TfL and other bidders had figured out. This could in some cases make infrastructure projects better. Another idea worth at least toying around with is to make those who implements an infrastructure project somewhat responsible for the plans being sane. I.e. if the public authority have ordered completion of a shitshow project those who actually builds the thing should be responsible too. That way we might be able to avoid the type of corruption that occurs when public sector staff are bribed to place an order to build something incorrectly and then order a rebuild of the newly finished project. Classic examples (at least in Sweden) are bike infrastructure with super narrow turns, too narrow lanes, speed bumps (temporary or permanent) for bike lanes and whatnot.

Re tram stops where passengers have to use the car lane when entering/exiting the tram: this seems really bad in winter with snow that has partially melted and transformed into something that requires water tight boots.

The S-bahn uses the regional rail platform track at Strausberg "Hbf" to reach the line up to Strausberg Nord. However the S-Bahn trains don't use that platform as it has it's dedicated platform and only runs non-stop through the regional rail track/platform.


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## Wilhem275

Baron Hirsch said:


> *U3 to Mexikoplatz* have a rather clear green light.
> 
> Reviving the dormant *Stammbahn* (Zehlendorf-Potsdam direttissimo) as a Regionalbahn line, potentially to be extended in parallel to S1 towards Berlin Hauptbahnhof.


A flying juction for that line was already integrated in the new N-S line, just under Gleisdreieck. I guess a new flyover will be needed at the Griebnitzsee junction as well (if done properly, could also integrate half of a flying junction towards Charlottenburg).
About U3 extension: to avoid ending up again with U3 terminating just short of an important connection, for decades, they should seriously design the extension at least to the future Kleinmachnow Regio station.

About S21, now that Siemensstadt appears to be a reality, I have a bigger but much less realistic concept in mind: making it a Northwest-Southeast corridor instead of just a doubling of the North-South line.
Once past Potsdamer Platz, send the current S1/S2 along the new Gleisdreieck corridor, and send S15 towards Anhalter Bhf, and then a branch of it all the way across Kreuzberg via Moritzplatz and Görlitzer Bhf.
Sort of what the Germania plan envisioned, but routed towards Hbf, not the South. It would give a crossing service pattern typical of Berlin's network.
A partial revision of the southern end of Potsdamer Platz S-Bhf would be needed.

Back to reality.
I was back in the city two weeks ago and finally tried the extended U5. Very satisfied with the practical and visual aspects of the new stations.

I was staying on Frankfurter Allee so made good use of U5. Apart from the obvious connection to Hbf, the new line opens up a number of very interesting connections to the southwest.

I especially appreciated the neat interchange with U6.
For those who don't know it, here is level -1, the recess in the middle is where U6 runs, escalators further leading down to U5. I'm very pleased with this impression of an apparently continuous hall through which trains pass.




























There's also an entrance leading directly to U5.











What really pleased me is realising Berlin's transit may be a mess when it comes with building time, but the quality of projects is still top-tier.

I was also considering how unreachable Hbf was in 2006, just with the Stadtbahn... U5 and S21 will really change the pace there.


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## Wilhem275

Another random thought: I don't like the revised BR481. Inside they've become very impersonal, they're dark and look like any other S-Bahn in Germany, while the green upholstery and panels gave more of a "fresh" impression to me. Perfect for Berlin. I will miss their '90s free design.
Outside... I've said it before, the time to give up the ketchup-senf scheme was already overdue 30 years ago, and this last iteration is of no help. Especially on modern designs as 481 and 484.

Speaking of nostalgia, a glance at the futuristic driver's desk of the BR480:





























And now a bunch of pics I took of the S21 progress between Nordring and Hbf.

Seen from a FEX leaving Hbf:














































A walk down the fashionable Tegeler Str., where the S-Bahn emerges from the eastern diveunder. The bridge carries the Ringbahn, then comes the S-Bahn cutting in half the road forever, then the overpass of the mainline leading to Hbf. Immediately to the right of the pictures, the S-Bahn and the mainline trade places.
I wonder why building a bridge here at all, the road's fate was doomed from the beginning.





































I guess if they laid the tracks straight over the cobblestone 😁

Little further to the west, the Nordufer passing below the three lines (Ring, Hbf and S21), and replacing the Tegeler Str. crossing. I'm walking towards Hbf here.









































































Here we see both lines passing the Berlin-Spandauer Schifffahrtskanal, rising to climb over the Perleberger Brücke and the corresponding mainline and S-Bahn coming from Westhafen.










Over the Fennbrücke and then seen from the other side of the canal, on Friedrich-Krause-Ufer:














































Round the corner, the view from the Perleberger Brücke: the eastern connectors, passing over the road...










...and the western connectors, passing under:










From the left: mainline from/to Spandau (then Hannover/Hamburg), the S21 (still missing 1 track) diving under the Ring in background, and the freight spur to Westhafen.
Here they built a connection between S21 and the freight spur, I don't know if it will be permanent or if it's just to access the worksite.

The view from the other side of Perleberger Brücke, towards Hbf. Here the mainline branches merge with a flying junction, and the same will do the S-Bahn branches:





































And finally a view from the third vertex of the S21 triangle: Westhafen S-Bahn station on the Ring, where a diveunder for S21 was ready since the early 2000's. The routing signal reports "W" for Wedding, which at the moment is the only possible direction, probably it will show H for Hbf in the future.






































About the future Perleberger Brücke station: I read it would be built on two levels, where the branches already split. Is that right? A single stop at Europacity would be much easier to build and use.


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## Baron Hirsch

Hi Wilhelm, thanks for all the pics from my neighborhood. Yes, local NGOs had long argued for a single platform, more user-friendly station for Perleberger further south. However, in the study giving the feasibility green light, the interchange to M27 bus on Perleberger has been highlighted as a source of high turnover, so proximity to the bridge in the north is now unnegotiable. Local NGOs and some Berlin state MPs are now trying to influence planning that there will be at least a southern tunnel exit straight into the neighborhoods. Present planning only foresees an exit to Perleberger Brücke and if I recall correctly a southern tunnel exit eastwards towards the new quarter of Europa City. The NGO has appealed for that tunnel to be extended westwards, thus giving a direct access to the middle of Lehrter Straße. They argue especially with the popular sports field of Poststadion. A direct exit there would bring the station and the stadium into direct contact, whereas the roundabout walk via Perleberger Brücke would make it unattractive.
Another point: Perleberger Brücke is already jammed a lot during the day. Unless the municipality takes serious measures against people driving cars into the inner districts, an additional bus stop on the bridge and a lot of foot passengers who simply need the bridge to go around the corner will make things worse. It would be wrong to save money here for a minor extension of an underground foot tunnel.


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## MiaM

Wilhem275 said:


> A flying juction for that line was already integrated in the new N-S line, just under Gleisdreieck. I guess a new flyover will be needed at the Griebnitzsee junction as well (if done properly, could also integrate half of a flying junction towards Charlottenburg).
> About U3 extension: to avoid ending up again with U3 terminating just short of an important connection, for decades, they should seriously design the extension at least to the future Kleinmachnow Regio station.


How would a flying junction at / east of Griebnitzsee best be configured? If we ignore the S-Bahn and only look at the regional / long distance lines, it will be like this: From Berlin there would be two double tracks, one via Wannsee and the Stadtbahn, and one via Zehlendorf and the tunnel. Westwards there is one double track towards Potsdam Hbf which in turn has four tracks. To the southwest is another double track via Drewitz/Roßlau that eventually goes to Halle/Leipzig but a longer route than the direct route via Jüterbog/Wittenberg. Perhaps a flying junction might only be needed for trains westbound from Zehlendorf towards Potsdam Hbf? This assumes that there won't ever be that many trains via Drewitz/Roßlau.

Looking at the aerial photos on Google Maps tells that there seems to be plenty of space in Griebnitzsee and up to east of Babelsberg. At Babelsberg it's super tight and at least some gardens and whatnot would have to be taken over by rail to quad track the main line. Perhaps it might be politically possible to do that if it's combined with double tracking the S-Bahn and thus promising more S-Bahn trains in the future, but I would guess that it would be a hard one. Looking westwards it seems possible to quad track to Potsdam Hbf and onwards via Charlottenhof to Park Sanssouci. I assu,e that the connection to Pirscheide lower level is rather uninteresting with really few trains. The only upside of using that link is that the trains that take the slower route between Berlin and Halle/Leipzig can go on an even slower detour via Potsdam Hbf if that is desired. Seems like a better idea to either just not stop those trains in the Potsdam area or add new platforms to the Berlin-Drewirz-Roßlau-Halle/Leipzig line at Griebnitzsee.

P.S. totally agree that any U3 platforms at Mexikoiplatz should be built so the line can be extended. Not sure if it would even be possible to build platforms that won't allow extension of the line though, as doing anything else than underground platforms would likely require demolition of houses.

I also agree that when transportation infra projects eventually are finished the end results are usually great. Sadly that seems uncommon - in many other places in the world the decision makers cheap out on good links between lines at stations and whatnot. The only thing that I think that Berlin together with DB did a bad job on was that they didn't install the roof at the upper level regional train platform at Ostbahnhof when that platform was temporarily used for S-Bahn trains. Eventually the roof got built but at that time way fewer people benefits from it.


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## Wilhem275

I also discovered that the BVG is not publishing the Stadtplan anymore. I mean this style of map:









They develop it, because they still use it in stations and documents, but it's not available to the public. They told me they publish the map bus instead.
To me it's a big loss, the bus map shows only buses, not connecting services and it's not easy to relate to geographically, that's hardly a replacement. I planned soooo many trips with the Stadtplan...
I can understand not printing it anymore, but at least they should leave it accessible on their website.



Baron Hirsch said:


> Another point: Perleberger Brücke is already jammed a lot during the day. Unless the municipality takes serious measures against people driving cars into the inner districts, an additional bus stop on the bridge and a lot of foot passengers who simply need the bridge to go around the corner will make things worse. It would be wrong to save money here for a minor extension of an underground foot tunnel.


Yes, I always noticed heavy traffic in the area and I'm under the impression it's getting worse (and EuropaCity is not even complete).
I'm thinking about their point on M27 bus but I dont' buy it in full. M27 is already connecting Jungfernheide, Turmstraße and there's S Wedding just round the corner, plus the tram extension being built from Hbf to Moabit, so I don't get what S21 would add to that.

Apart for the loss for the inner connection to the neighbourhood, where would they place platforms exactly? Building a split station would lead to another Yorckstraße/Großgörschenstraße situation which is just unacceptable for a modern project.




MiaM said:


> How would a flying junction at / east of Griebnitzsee best be configured? If we ignore the S-Bahn and only look at the regional / long distance lines, it will be like this: From Berlin there would be two double tracks, one via Wannsee and the Stadtbahn, and one via Zehlendorf and the tunnel. Westwards there is one double track towards Potsdam Hbf which in turn has four tracks. To the southwest is another double track via Drewitz/Roßlau that eventually goes to Halle/Leipzig but a longer route than the direct route via Jüterbog/Wittenberg. Perhaps a flying junction might only be needed for trains westbound from Zehlendorf towards Potsdam Hbf? This assumes that there won't ever be that many trains via Drewitz/Roßlau.


From the schemes I saw, the new line is meant to connect both towards Magdeburg and Dessau (makes sense).
I assume the main connection Zehlendorf - Magdeburg will be built as a viaduct over the Charlottenburg - Dessau line.
This only leaves to decide the layout of the Charlottenburg - Magdeburg and Zehlendorf - Dessau curves, and this mostly depends on foreseen traffic.

A compromise between a poor all-flat-junctions layout and a large land consuming full flying junction could be to exploit the new viaduct as a partial flying junction, something like this:










It allows at least one of the two mainlines to be equipped with flying junctions, with a modest increase in land use and only two ramps to add. You just need to decide which of the two mainlines carries more traffic (lower level in this example).
The pair of flat junctions might also be used simultaneously, leaving high capacity on the less important mainline.

I don't have data on foreseen services, so I can't really say which line shoud be preferred.


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## MiaM

Re loads of car traffic on Perleberger Brücke and in that area in general: Is the problem partially that the A100 just ends about 2-3km westwards and turns into a regular street? Like signing that as an Autobahn that just ends likely attracts more vehicles than if the A100 would end at the A100/A111 junction, and the existing stub eastwards would just be signed as a local road?

Or does most drivers use a map service and/or local road knowledge to select these roads and thus the naming of roads won't matter?

(I know that the plan at least used to be to make the A100 a full ring road, but that won't likely happen any time soon. Sure, it seems like the eastern part via Ostkreuz would probably be built in the foreseeable future, but any Autobahn style road connecting that to the stub northnorthwest of Perleberger Brücke will likely not happen any time soon so removing the A100 signs might still be a good thing?)



I agree that a partially grade separated junction at / east of Griebnitzsee like you suggest would probably be a good compromise.


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## Baron Hirsch

@ Wilhelm: totally agree about the Berlin public transport city map. With it, you could easily judge whether in a part of the city you do not know it was worthwhile to walk towards the next S-Bahn station or wait for the bus nearby. BVG has hyped its new bus schematic map as a marvel of computer graphics, but here this element is totally lost. Many people miss the elegant BVG city map, and no app or anybody can replace it. 
About the prospective S-Bahn station Perleberger Brücke: no renders have been released yet, but it is my understanding that the overhead station for S21 eastbound (direction of Wedding-Gesundbrunnen) will be two separate parallel platforms to the railway bridge just south of Perleberger road bridge (so in that picture you took with an u/c office building in the background), whereas the westbound station (towards Westhafen-Jungfernheide) would be located immediately north of the road bridge, in the beginning of the curve. 
This leads to several issues. Platforms will be difficult to access, as they necessitate a lot of different in heights - head down from the bridge to probably an underground tunnel beneath the tracks several meters below, to then head up to platform level at track level or even to an elevated level high above the road. The latter could be compensated with direct access between road and elevated platforms. What is more, any passenger looking for a southbound ride to Hauptbahnhof will need to decide which line to head for before setting out on a several minute walk up and down escalators. As traffic will be minimal for decades to come until construction southwards of Hbf is completed, this will turn off passengers. Also, the elevated platform adjacent to the climate-unfriendly massive building blocks of Europa City (mind you, there will be another, even higher building in the still empty lot in front of the one in the photo), will be exposed to strong winds and will be very chilly in winter months. Bur let us hope for some more inspired renders in a few months.

@M: I believe the main issue with road traffic in the neighborhood is the missing link between A100 and the north-to-south axis (Westtangente). Based on plans from Albert Speer's Germania vision of Berlin from the 1940s, a massive north-to-south highway was planned through the middle of the city. West Berlin urban planning pursued this same goal and demolished many buildings in this area and let others deteriorate to knock them down later. Public protest and a change of policy stopped the Westtangente. However, to compensate, Tiergartentunnel, a broadened Heidestraße, and Ellen-Epstein-/Erna-Samuel-Straße were developed as a sub-Autobahn, but still heavy duty, broad inner-city road link. Moabit, as a working class, immigrant, and welfare-prone neighborhood has traditionally been neglected by public policy, and several heavily polluted and noisy thoroughfares dot this central, but lower class part of the city. The newly elected district representatives of Berlin Mitte have claimed they will radically reduce through traffic. Let us hope this will really happen, but for the moment, their mayor is entangled in political scandal, and most likely party politics intrigues and reassigning of posts will be their top priority for the moment.


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## Wilhem275

Would you say that the Perleberger Br. is overloaded with traffic going from Ellen-Epstein to Heidestr.?

By my observation this might be true, both junctions seem overloaded (and undersized).

A "Perleberger Tunnel" directly connecting them might solve the problem, but I don't know if traffic on the "M27 corridor" is high as well, in that case other solutions would be needed.

A urban road tunnel is probably not a priority right now, but in this case it might untie a specific problem affecting the neighbourhood.


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## MiaM

Seems like the Ellen-Epstein-/Erna-Samuel-Straße only have one lane in each direction, while the full route from Sachsendamm to the north end of Heidestraße has 2+2 lanes.

It would probably be highly unpopular by the locals, but a possible way to unclog the roads might be to make Ellen-Epstein-/Erna-Samuel-Straße one way eastbound, and turn Nordufer / Sylter Straße to a one way westbound main road. Maybe a combination with Friedrich-Krause-Ufer could be made, using that road for the eastern part, widening it with an extra westbound lane, thus avoiding routing traffic near what seems like a residential area. I guess that either way is politically impossible. I can see the head lines, "adding more car traffic exhaust next to an Asthma clinic"...

Also it's a bit weird that the B96 is signed to use a parallel bridge south of Perleberger Brücke and both those bridges are two way bridges. Would it make sense to turn those bridges to one way streets, the southern one eastwards and the northern one westwards, to form a roundabout of sorts?

Re a tunnel - what water depths are required?


Re the actual S-Bahn station: I would assume that the station would mainly exist for a really local area as S-Westhafen and S-Wedding are nearby and they interchange with U9 and U6 which in turn have more stations in the area, and then there is the actual Hbf which has connections to almost everywhere. So although the convoluted platform configuration might not be ideal, it would probably be good enough. Also nowadays it's cheap to have enough information guiding passengers to whichever platform will be the best to catch the next train southbound.

Btw would S21 remove some bus lines?

Also a general observation (of sorts) re the road network in Berlin: Is it just me or does the roads in former West Berlin, in particular inside the ring, seem almost like a random mess while the roads in former East Berlin more or less form radials out from the central area around Alex, combined with partial circles that connect the radial roads? Was Berlin like this even before the end of the war and the division, or did the east and west keep/change/develop the road networks differently? (Sure, there are some exceptions in the east, but those are mostly due to things like obviously not wanting to route a wide 2+2 lane road through a cemetery or due to areas not yet developed and whatnot).


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## Baron Hirsch

Hi guys, 

heavy infrastructure solutions to roads in the inner city of Berlin are nowadays not popular and judging by the speed of public works construction in the area, would not bring any relief within foreseeable time. The problem with Perleberger Brücke is that three heavily used roads - Tiergartentunnel-Heidestraße, Sellerstraße-Nordhafenbrücke, and Fennstraße-Fennbrücke - all converge unto it and the adjacent intersection west of the bridge. On the western side, on Ellen-Epstein/Erna-Samuel -Straße, there is a steady flow of traffic, but no jams, whereas traffic though Perleberger Straße and Lehrter Straße is significant, but not dramatic. As Lehrter is not officially designed as a through road, but being used as such especially by truck drivers who prefer it over the parallel Heidestraße, the district municipality intends to convert it into a bicycle-plus-bus street as of 2023, but without physical hindrances for through traffic. We will see whether this will change drivers' habits.
As for buses, at present there are 6 buses per hour on Lehrter Straße and on Heidestraße respectively, which run parallel in the west and east of future S21. Reasonably, they could not be abolished, as they have 5 (Lehrter) and 3 (Heide) intermittent stops, some of them quite far from the S-Bahn. But perhaps some stops should then be moved and frequency might diminish.


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## MiaM

Would reconfiguring the intersections help? I.E. make the Heidestraße - Ellen-Epstein-Straße connection the through route?

I'm not 100% sure I understand exactly where the S-Bahn platforms would be. Would it be possible to use the existing road bridge as a connection to one end of the platforms, and add a new combined road + pedestrian bridge across the railway at the other end of the S-Bahn platforms, and use that bridge for one of the directions for traffic on the Heidestraße - Ellen-Epstein-Straße route?

Also it might be worth investigating forbidding turning between Fennbrücke and Heidestraße. That change would only require chaning the road painting and signage so would be super cheap. As a bonus it would get rid of the dangerous crossing between motor vehicles from Heidestraße to Feinbrücke and bicycles from Heidestraße to either Friedrisch-Krause-Ufer or Perleberger Straße. To be honest I didn't know that we had such bad bike infrastructure in Europe...

If (the road) Perleberger Brücke can't be used as access to the future S-Bahn platforms, then perhaps it might be worth investigating rerouting all pedestrian and perhaps bike traffic to whatever the S-Bahn access will be, and use the existing space on the bridge to add additional lanes.

I see a risk that any improvement in this area would just move the problem to Ellen-Epstein-Straße, at least for westbound traffic.


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## Baron Hirsch

I forgot to answer a question a little bit earlier about the nature of the Berlin street grid, symmetrical mostly in the East, but chaotic in other districts. This indeed has old roots. In the 18th century, Berlin was expanded as a baroque planned city, with a highly regular street grid as far as the main thoroughfares were concerned. This was centered on today's Mitte, but already expanded beyond. Anywhere in town where you find a "Tor" (gate) in a place name, you can pretty much trace the old city walls: Brandenburger Tor, Hallesches Tor, Schlesisches Tor, but also Rosenthaler Platz is where the old city ended and where the main thoroughfares radiated out to the suburbs. After a large population increase in the nineteenth century, the city limits were expanded to include previously independent cities and villages, such as Spandau, Charlottenburg, Wilmersdorf, Zehlendorf, Köpenick. These towns mostly had not known baroque urban planning and had had a number of asymmetrical streets, which were spontaneously developed to cope with in and out traffic from the Berlin core city, which leads to the chaotic character.

As for entrance / exit to Perleberger Station, I think nobody is suggesting to do away with exits on the bridge all together. However, pedestrian tunnels and or staircases could allow for direct access to existing bus stops, some 100 meters to the west and east, so busses would not have to stop directly on the bridge. And most importantly, additional exists to other sides could alleviate pressure from the bridge. A pedestrian bridge over the railway is planned between Otto-Weidt-Platz and Poststadion, but might become redundant if a tunnel from the S-Bahn is planned in the same location. DB will present a solution for the access sometime in the coming months, hopefully.


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## Zaz965

does anyone have updated photos about berlin trams?  
Germany - Berlin - Tram - 2 by Manfred Sommer, on Flickr


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## Gintaras

*Berlin S-Bahn/Berliner S-Bahn 2022*


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