# MOSCOW | Surface Public Transport



## ♣628.finst (Jul 29, 2005)

*Moscow buses and trolleybuses*

Post pics of Moscow buses or trolleybuses here!


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## grinei (Jul 25, 2005)

foto by grohotailo





















































foto by Artem Svetlov









foto by Dmitriy Kasatkin









foto by Aleksandr Konov


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## ZZ-II (May 10, 2006)

Wow, moscow has very modern busses.


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## ♣628.finst (Jul 29, 2005)

ZZ-II said:


> Wow, moscow has very modern busses.


Yes, Moscow could fake any buses or trolleybuses you have in Western Europe or North America.


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## ZimasterX (Aug 19, 2005)

Should this thread also include light-rail/tramways?


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## coth (Oct 16, 2003)

Xäntårx said:


> Yes, Moscow could fake any buses or trolleybuses you have in Western Europe or North America.


Xäntårx, your behavior towards Russia seems very hysteric.


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## Kaitak747 (May 13, 2006)

Looks quite new but too similar to those used in the rest of European countries.


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## coth (Oct 16, 2003)

Krasnaya Zima said:


> Should this thread also include light-rail/tramways?


Moscow does not have light rails. As of trams - there are just 3 common types of trams. Tatra T3, 71-608* and 71-619*

From autumn Moscow should begin receiving new 71-630 (low floor trainsets)


photos from vagons.tramvaj.ru

71-608










71-619









T3 refurbished


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## rabelaisien (Aug 18, 2004)

Link in french on public transports in Moscow (Xenon is Russian)
http://megabus33.jexiste.fr/viewtopic.php?t=731


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## Brad (May 19, 2006)

Kaitak747 said:


> Looks quite new but too similar to those used in the rest of European countries.


Probably, because Moscow is in Europe


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## KVentz (May 2, 2006)

coth said:


> From autumn Moscow should begin receiving new 71-630 (low floor trainsets)


I heared there will be a contest. A new tram line is going to be built and there is many competitors: Ust-Katavsk (with UT 71-630), Saint-Petersburg plant, Bombardier (it's plant in Riga), Minsk 'Belcommunmash' and so on. But everyone beleives 71-630 is a favorite (regardles to this model is just u/c).


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## anm (Aug 25, 2005)

some links

Moscow tramway

http://tram.ruz.net/welcome.htm

http://tram.rusign.com/tramway_eng.htm

http://www.geocities.com/ayelagin/

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ru/trams/Moscow/71-608K/pix.html


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## bayviews (Mar 3, 2006)

Thanks for posting these photos & info on Moscow's surface transit. 

Moscow's trolleybus system is one of the best in the world, having added lots more variety in different Russian & Belarus vehicle types over the past decade. 

Hopefully, Moscow's tram system can be preserved & perhaps expanded or upgraded in places to light rail.


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## anm (Aug 25, 2005)

Moscow trolleybus sites:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ru/trolleybus/Moscow/MTRZ/pix.html

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ru/trolleybus/Moscow/Ikarus/pix.html

http://trolley.ruz.net/

http://www.sfu.ca/person/dearmond/phono/Moscow.photo.2.htm

http://villamosok.hu/troli/ik-280-obus/e_index.html

http://mtb-photo.narod.ru/

Many good pics there, just check!


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## KVentz (May 2, 2006)

bayviews said:


> Moscow's trolleybus system is one of the best in the world, having added lots more variety in different Russian & Belarus vehicle types over the past decade.


Oh yes, but most of them are old fashioned. The very nice orange trolleybus on the photos is just passing tests now. There is only one machine like this in the streets.



bayviews said:


> Hopefully, Moscow's tram system can be preserved & perhaps expanded or upgraded in places to light rail.


Well, tram is definitely not a favorite transport for Moscow government. The tram network is decreasing. Mostly because of active road development: tram lines is hardly compatible with multilevel and high loaded roads, it's expensive to build tram briges.

We have an automobile boom in Moscow now, many many people buy cars, but roads are too narrow and it is hard to find parking (mostly in the center of the city). We have too many traffic jams, all roads are overloaded. The only way to stop it is to develop public transport systems especially harmless to the nature kinds like metro, tram, light rail, trolley and monorail. But it is hard to make: tikets are cheap and public transport is allways unprofitable and to have an own car is like to have a special status - few people are ready to change their cars to trams.


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## coth (Oct 16, 2003)

nice photo from vagons.tramvaj.ru

3 common moscow trams in a row

Refurbished T3, 71-619 and 71-608









as of 01.01.2006, accroding to 
http://vagons.tramvaj.ru/compact.php?cid=13
71-608 - 346
71-619 - 194
Refurbished T3 - 91
LM-99A - 46 http://vagons.tramvaj.ru/photo.php?id=1906
71-616 - 2
71-617 - 12
71-621 - 1 
LT-5 - 4 http://vagons.tramvaj.ru/photo.php?id=592
T7 - 2 http://vagons.tramvaj.ru/photo.php?id=42
LM-2000 - 1 http://vagons.tramvaj.ru/photo.php?id=230


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## vox20 (Jun 27, 2006)

KVentz said:


> We have an automobile boom in Moscow now, many many people buy cars, but roads are too narrow and it is hard to find parking (mostly in the center of the city). We have too many traffic jams, all roads are overloaded. The only way to stop it is to develop public transport systems especially harmless to the nature kinds like metro, tram, light rail, trolley and monorail. But it is hard to make: tikets are cheap and public transport is allways unprofitable and to have an own car is like to have a special status - few people are ready to change their cars to trams.


Aren't roads by themselves even less profitable for city? Not taking into accout positive effect of mobility, gained as by cars as by public transit, roads cost more, cars pollute air more. Cost of road construction are not included when calculating 'profitability' of roads, is't like self-evident that they shall be funded from taxes.


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## ♣628.finst (Jul 29, 2005)

coth said:


> 3 common moscow trams in a row
> 
> Refurbished T3, 71-619 and 71-608


Oh yes, I prefer old Tatra trams (T3) over any of the newer series. Personally I support more construction of tramways in Moscow, operated by older Tatra trams. 
(I love the classical feel of those trams) 

Trolleybuses... well it's another kind of great transport system. Strangely Moscow seems to have more modern trolleybuses than Edmonton! Yet older trolleybuses in Moscow are usually maintained badly and looking dangerous.


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## KVentz (May 2, 2006)

vox20 said:


> Aren't roads by themselves even less profitable for city?


Oh yes, maybe. But we have now such a period when everybody tryes to buy his own car. Just 20 years ago few people could buy a car and everybody used a public transport. Now public transport associates with something soviet, bad and uncomfortable. I think it will take from 10 to 20 years until everybody will understand that the only way of transport developing in such a big city is to develop a public transport systems. But if we want to move people to the PT, we must make it very comfortable, riding just in time, without overloading, quiet, with good air heating and cooling systems and smooth course. We have to make very much for this.


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## Swamp Daddy (Dec 8, 2005)

*old Moscow trolleybus*

Hi all: Here is an older Moscow trolleybus in a 1969 photo. The photos posted so far are very nice but not necessarily the most modern and pleasing I've seen. 

I will post, later on, some links to photos of the new Vancouver trolleybuses which I think, along with some of the new Chinese trolleybuses, are among the nicest ones around. 

Have fun, Swamp Daddy


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## Swamp Daddy (Dec 8, 2005)

Hi: Sorry photo didn't come through, maybe later. 

Swamp Daddy


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## anm (Aug 25, 2005)

doubling my recent post from Euro trolley bus thread

a few of many Moscow trolleybus sites: 
http://trolley.ruz.net/
http://trolleway.tramvaj.ru/
http://mtb-photo.narod.ru

a few pics from http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ru/trolleybus/Moscow/misc/pix.html

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ru/trolleybus/Moscow/MTRZ/pix.html


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## ♣628.finst (Jul 29, 2005)

Sincerely I prefer those old Ikarus Moscow trolleybuses--- they look so distinctive from Edmonton trolleybuses--- not sure if they are comfortable. Most 1980s trolleybuses resembles their Canadian counterpart--- Moscow trolleybuses always look more comfortable than Edmonton. 

Actually I deeply respect Moscow's extensive trolleybus network--- it's really an efficient light-rail like transport system. It's a shame that people in both Moscow and Edmonton usually choose to use their automobile rather than public trolleybuses. Does Moscow constantly having new trolleybus lines? I'm also curious about its tram system.


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## coth (Oct 16, 2003)

71-630 tram for Moscow


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## ♣628.finst (Jul 29, 2005)

^^ Strange design... that tram has 3 cabs but the middle cab is very short--- I don't think it can hold many people in that cab--- other cabs are of normal size.


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## coth (Oct 16, 2003)

there are two cabs (driver cabs). and it is one 3 sectional car.


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## Petr (May 8, 2004)

Xäntårx said:


> ^^ Strange design... that tram has 3 cabs but the middle cab is very short--- I don't think it can hold many people in that cab--- other cabs are of normal size.


Coth has explained it, it's one car tram. This kind of lowfloor 3 or 5 sectional modern trams are very common now in Europe.

It seems Moscow invests mostly in subway, because trams, trolleys and buses look quite poor. But this new 71-630 looks very interesting, and simmilar to Skoda T16 for Wroclaw designed in Porsche Design Studio.


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## ♣628.finst (Jul 29, 2005)

StPetr said:


> Coth has explained it, it's one car tram. This kind of lowfloor 3 or 5 sectional modern trams are very common now in Europe.


So could actually the middle "section" hold people? Or is it just for better turning of the tram?


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## Petr (May 8, 2004)

Xäntårx said:


> So could actually the middle "section" hold people? Or is it just for better turning of the tram?


Here You have Katowice Citadis interior photo.


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## coth (Oct 16, 2003)

of course there are seats
pic from tram.ruz.net


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## ♣628.finst (Jul 29, 2005)

Thanks coth, the seat arrangement of the tram is quite elegantly designed. :applause: Actually which Moscow tram is related to 71-630 series? Are there such thing called "71" series?


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## Veter (Aug 23, 2006)

This is what I found on the GAZ group's bus page:

I don't know how many are on Moscow streets though.

I'll start with extra-lage and go to small.

GolAZ 6228(Golitsyn)









LiAZ - 6212 (Likinsky, not to be confused with the one in CZ)









LiAZ-6213(Low-floor experimental modification)









LiAZ 62xx(15 meter long single bus)









Large:

LiAZ 5256









LiAZ 5292









LiAZ 5292.57(Natural gas powered)









LiAZ 5293 (Low floor)









Average-sized:

PAZ 4230 (Pavlovo, To me it looks like a regular paz with a different face)









Small:

GolAZ "Ford Transit"(Used for Route Taxis, replacing GAZelles)









PAZ 3237









PAZ 32054









PAZ 3203(Looks like the yellow bus named Bogdan(Lviv Bus Plant?))









PAZ 3204









Perspective PAZ-City model









Trolleybusses:
LiAZ 5280









LiAZ 52803(Low floor)









Also I've seen some Chinese busses with uncomfortable seats on Altufyevo Highway in Moscow, but don't remember their name.

Added:

http://self.bus.ru/eng/ <--This is the website if anyone is interested.


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## vox20 (Jun 27, 2006)

Xäntårx said:


> It's a shame that people in both Moscow and Edmonton usually choose to use their automobile rather than public trolleybuses. Does Moscow constantly having new trolleybus lines? I'm also curious about its tram system.


Last trolleybus line expansion took place in 1990, from 1990 to 1999 some of 5 km lines were closed in downtown. Tram system have been shrinking constantly from 1983 year, during last 10 years about 20km of tracks were closed because of highways widening.


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## vox20 (Jun 27, 2006)

Xäntårx said:


> Actually which Moscow tram is related to 71-630 series? Are there such thing called "71" series?


All trams manufactured in USSR had some 71-*** code regardless of manufacturer, as is was set by State Standard. ( Metro cars have code 81-*** ). Afaik 71-630 have no sommon core parts with other Moscow trams, maybe except motors - frame, bogies, body are different. Other model manufactured by Ust-Katav that are operated in Moscow now are 71-608 and 71-619.


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## Petr (May 8, 2004)

^^
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/71-608
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/71-619


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## vlaakko (Jan 23, 2006)

If we go outside Moscow and talk about whole Russia, what are the most common buses and trolleybuses you see? Not that many new models i think.


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## Similos (Jul 6, 2006)

Serbia's Ikarbus bus plant has recently revelead five new models of buses, some of which were created with Russian export in mind, in partnerhip with Tushino Motors of Moscow.

Already, fifty (50) new low-floor Ikarbus buses are being readied for export to Moscow.

They will look like this:

SOLO IK-112N bus




























Articulated IK-218N


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## ♣628.finst (Jul 29, 2005)

vlaakko said:


> If we go outside Moscow and talk about whole Russia, what are the most common buses and trolleybuses you see? Not that many new models i think.


Probably. Moscow has some of the best buses and trolleybuses throughout Russia. 

Minsk bus fleet is comparable with Moscow, but that's in Belarus.

Consider Sankt Petersburg... one of the city with better bus fleet. Most smaller cities use old buses, trolleybuses and trams throughout most of Russia.


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## coth (Oct 16, 2003)

ode of bund said:


> I have seen a drawing of Moscow trolley-bus network. It appears that route 70 trolley runs through an under water tunnel in the northwestern portion of the city. I am hoping someone here can provide me with more detail.


tunnel under the moscow channel
http://maps.google.ru/maps?hl=ru&ie=UTF8&ll=55.819277,37.4525&spn=0.004087,0.009077&t=h&z=17


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## ode of bund (Dec 19, 2005)

Thank you very much for answering my question so promptly. How wide is the Moscow channel, is it a canal? The reason for asking is because in my home town Shanghai, there used to be a trolley-bus route that travels through a cross harbour tunnel underneath the River Huangpu. Tunnel trolley-buses are not that uncommon in the world, but almost almost all of them are on dry lands, therefore a cross harbour tunnel trolley-bus is a really unique transit establishment that I would like to explore. Unfortunately the cross harbour tunnel trolley-bus of Shanghai only lasted for 6 years from 1990 to 1996. However Shanghai may reintroduce a brand new cross harbour tunnel trolley-bus by 2010. The South Tibet Road cross harhour tunnel currently under construction is going to become the primary transportation link for the 2010 World Expo fair gounds which lie on both sides of River Huangpu. Shanghai is planning a zero emmission cross harbour transit as a show case of committment to environmental protection. Super capacitor bus has been ruled out since its cruising endurance is limited, ie. super capacitor bus is not capable of running the enitire length of the tunnel without recharging. However the tunnel trolley-bus is not likely to be a conventional trolley-bus either, it is most likely to be a dual mode trolley-bus which run on electric mode in the tunnel only. When it runs through the Expo fair grounds, it will switch to diesel mode as overhead is not allowed in these areas.

Since St. Petersburg also operates a large trolley-bus system, given the numerous rivers and canals in St. Petersburg, are there any cross harbour tunnel trolley-bus in St. Petersburg as well.


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## Flamming_Python (May 20, 2006)

I've heard of plans for a sort of above-ground light rail system in Moscow; I don't know the name but it's the system where there is a rail above the train to which the train hangs onto. Any news on it?


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## Linnea2 (Aug 23, 2008)

Some trolleybuses like the ZIU/TrolZA seems to be purpose built, but are others based on diesel bus bodies ? Who is the electric equipment supplier ? There are ZIU 682 and 683 trolleybuses still at work in Córdoba, Argentina; others in Mendoza and Rosario were phased out.


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## Filip7370 (Jan 24, 2008)

I don't understand. In Poland and everywhere in the world Russians are known that they build mass production realible and simple machines. In Moscow I see xx difrent types of trams, trolleys and buses. Without any sense and any scheme. Why?


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## kidrobot (Apr 27, 2009)

Probably because Russia is not about being grey, boring and like everything else anymore. All kinds of russian and foreign companies have access to the market.


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## JoKo65 (Feb 28, 2007)

Flamming_Python said:


> I've heard of plans for a sort of above-ground light rail system in Moscow; I don't know the name but it's the system where there is a rail above the train to which the train hangs onto. Any news on it?


You mean a suspension railway like in Wuppertal for example?


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## coth (Oct 16, 2003)

Just an elevated rapid tram


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## JoKo65 (Feb 28, 2007)

coth said:


> Just an elevated rapid tram


Like it is planned in Piter?


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## JoKo65 (Feb 28, 2007)

Some tram photos from Moscow:


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## Shmack (Oct 17, 2007)

A bit of my favourite marshrutka's if you don' mind. 

'K, marshrutka (маршрутка) derives from the word "marsh'root" (route), literally it's a taxi with a route. It is a minivan which in most cases follows bus routes but can also have original route, analog of New York dollar van. Usually marshrutka is several roubles more expensive than a bus. Up-to-date the most common fair is 25 roubles (75 cents). Within Moscow the price is constant, but if marshrutka is heading towards outskirts or satellite city, it becomes higher (usually two times). It has no certain stops so you have to cry 'Stop here u sonuvabitch!' at the top of your voice so that the driver (who's russian is usually quite poor) stops at the place you need.

Modern (private) Moscow marshrutka appeared in 90's. They were RAF-2203 (Latvian-made). This horrible box:








In 1995 such marshrutka costed 1000 roubles - it was before 1998 denomination, so 1 rouble in current prices.

In late 90's marshrutka lines were ovetaken by russian made Gazelle. By reason of Gazelles' absolute dominance on the routes, many people started calling all marshrutka's "gazelka" (with diminutival suffix). At first they were mostly white or grey. Like this one:









Or this one:









Later, they became more colorful due to commercial:









In early 2000's GaZ carried out restyling of Gazelle. New marshrutkas got roundish headlights, new seats, and became a bit more comfortable and mostly yellow.









Soon Gazelle monopoly was destroyed by Ford. Transit model was introduced in mid 2000's and is quite popular due to its comfort and safety. 









Mercedes 208 is popular on Moscow-suburbs lines and among small (regarding to Moscow) regional transport companies.









Many Moscow's satellite cities have there own transport companies, but nevertheless both inner Moscow and suburban transportation is dominated by one company called simply Autoline (Автолайн). Their emblem on the hood:









All marshrutkas are equipped with TV which shows mostly commercial and some funny stuff from time to time.









Marshrutka drivers usually look like this:









Or this (this pic is from Yemen frankly, but almost no difference):









Or this:









Marshrutka is the most deadly transport in Russia. The most horrible accidents usually involve marshurtkas. 

























But marshrutkas have their own humor anyways. 








Leaflets say: "A stop *somewhere over here* will be *somewhere over there*!", "The driver is not an octopus, he can't give cashback to everybody at once", "Book of complaints is in the next car"...









"Only kids up to 7 kilogramms, Matrix agents (with ID), Nobel Prize winners, Nobel Prize winners' lovers, Tom Cruise are allowed to ride free."









"Drunk, dirty and stinky are not allowed"

And this one is from Ivano-Frankovsk, western Ukraine. The ugly old man in the middle says 'Remember! Swearing turns you into moskal!" (the way ukrainians call the russians):









Welcome to Moscow!


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## JoKo65 (Feb 28, 2007)

Trams in Moscow.

Ул. Панфилова:










Ост. "Сумской проезд":










Около памятника героям ВОВ, г. Коломна:


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

How people are killed from riding or driving marshrutkas(if there is a number)?


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## Urban Legend (Mar 13, 2007)




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## Rodalvesdepaula (Apr 14, 2008)

Urban Legend said:


>


German second-hand Mercedes-Benz O-303 intercity buses?


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## KVentz (May 2, 2006)

Rodalvesdepaula said:


> German second-hand Mercedes-Benz O-303 intercity buses?


Yes, there are many of them around Moscow connecting Moscow and neighbourhood towns. You know there is Moscow city and there is Moscow Region around the city. They are two different regions. 'Mostransavto' (you can see their logo on the sides of the buses) is the transport company of Moscow Region. They often buy second-hand buses.


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## Gag Halfrunt (Jun 25, 2006)

Rodalvesdepaula said:


> German second-hand Mercedes-Benz O-303 intercity buses?


These particular O 303s are secondhand from Israel and have Israeli-made bodies. There are also several examples in Mostransavto's photo gallery - for instance, one with a Haargaz body.

A good website for buses in the former USSR is Autobus Transport, with dozens of new photos posted every day.


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## Rodalvesdepaula (Apr 14, 2008)

Gag Halfrunt said:


> These particular O 303s are secondhand from Israel and have Israeli-made bodies. There are also several examples in Mostransavto's photo gallery - for instance, one with a Haargaz body.
> 
> A good website for buses in the former USSR is Autobus Transport, with dozens of new photos posted every day.


 
Hum, very interesting. 

So, the Russian second-hand O-303 would be ex-Egged, the largest bus company in Israel?


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## Gag Halfrunt (Jun 25, 2006)

Rodalvesdepaula said:


> So, the Russian second-hand O-303 would be ex-Egged, the largest bus company in Israel?


I don't know, but the photos Urban Legend posted have Egged copyright notices, suggesting that they come from a feature about what happens to Egged buses after they're withdrawn. And did you notice that the buses in the first and fourth pictures still had destination blinds in Hebrew?


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## Rodalvesdepaula (Apr 14, 2008)

^^Yes, I saw the destinations in Hebrew. So, maybe these buses are ex-Egged or another bus company of Israel...


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## Gamma-Hamster (Dec 28, 2006)

New buses:

*Volgabus 6270*



















Moscow got 140 of them accordign to upper.metromost.com


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## coth (Oct 16, 2003)

KVentz said:


> Yes, there are many of them around Moscow connecting Moscow and neighbourhood towns. You know there is Moscow city and there is Moscow Region around the city. They are two different regions. 'Mostransavto' (you can see their logo on the sides of the buses) is the transport company of Moscow Region. They often buy second-hand buses.


Afaik, Mostransavto have Scania OmniLinks in their park


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## Linnea2 (Aug 23, 2008)

I learn there is a very little ammount (4% ?) of articulated trolleybuses in Moscow, I wonder why.


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## rheintram (Mar 5, 2008)

The videos in reply #38 are interesting. The second one shows that the monorail is barely used, while the trams which go the same route are full.


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## kossia (Jul 22, 2009)

> russianpride can you say how many of those new busses are in service. Last summer in Moscow most trolleys I saw were this shitty models:


That is not true, most of them are OK.


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## russianpride (Dec 22, 2008)

SVARZ-6235


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## ruslan33 (Oct 24, 2007)

russianpride said:


> SVARZ-6235


Now this is nice. How many of this in service in Moscow and who makes this busses ?


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## russianpride (Dec 22, 2008)

ruslan33 said:


> Now this is nice. How many of this in service in Moscow and who makes this busses ?


I do not have full information about this trolleybus yet. 

SVARZ (Сокольнический вагоноремонтно-строительный завод) Moscow


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## russianpride (Dec 22, 2008)

МАЗ-103.465


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## ruslan33 (Oct 24, 2007)

russianpride said:


> I do not have full information about this trolleybus yet.
> 
> SVARZ (Сокольнический вагоноремонтно-строительный завод) Moscow


I really hope they are going to buy many SVARZ or Belkommunmash-321
Trolza is not nice hno:


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## russianpride (Dec 22, 2008)

ruslan33 said:


> Trolza is not nice hno:


Why?


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## ruslan33 (Oct 24, 2007)

russianpride said:


> Why?


Design is outdated and cheap hno:

Drugiji prosto krasiveja :cheers:


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## russianpride (Dec 22, 2008)

Trolza-62052.01










Trolza-6206



















VMZ-5298.01










UKVZ-71-630


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## Jamuary (Jul 11, 2009)

in Moscow I rode Bus , Trolley , Tram and Marszrutka . I rode on 5 lines of Moscow subway


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## anm (Aug 25, 2005)

from parovoz.com

http://transit.parovoz.com/muralist...=0&REGION=RU77&TAKENON=&DESCR=&AUTHOR=&MONTH=


Исаев А., 2004









Светлов А., 2004
no, they do not use them, it is a historic one









another historic one, 2004









Артамонов Денис , 2004








































































Иван, 2005









Павел В. Кашин, 2005


















one more historic trolley bus
Грохотайло И, 2005


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

How do you change the route number?


anm said:


>


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## Gag Halfrunt (Jun 25, 2006)

Rebasepoiss said:


> How do you change the route number?


You don't. Presumably that bus is only used on one route.


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## Rail_Serbia (May 29, 2009)

I was in Moscow in novemeber 2008. and by my oppinion, Mosow surface public transport is very bad. 

- On some cogested roads trolleybusses and busses move slower then walking speed. Why there are no bus/trolleybus lanes in congested rads, when bulevards are wide? 
- There are a lot of busses, trolleybusses and tramways which have 3-4 doors, but open only the front door. That make public transport slow and uncomfortable. 
- There are lot of lines with bad quality frequency standard. (<7min. high quality, 8-15min. medium quality, 15+min. bad quality). 
- Paralel with monorail there is tramline, also paralel with both there is hard congested bulevard. But I saw tramway jam. I thought there was accident, tramways are move slower then walking speed. When I came to the begining of jam, I saw what there is: there is traffic light with very short interval, enough only for passing one tramway, and with frequency 2min!!!! After that cogestion on this traffic light, tramway go fast.
- There are to much very little transport units, and there are no using ability of tramway to make long capacity tramtrains.

Russians are pionirs in science of public transport, and now so shame to make so stupid mistakes. Metro and suburban train service is good, just excelent, but other...


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## Ivanski (Feb 24, 2008)

Shmack's explanation on marshrutkas cracked me up :lol: although that isn't exactly a public transport. We have pretty much the same things in BG, called the same way ,with similar looking and skillful drivers :bash:, but ours use mostly French vans and Fords  Sorry for the offtopic.

Btw these SVARZ trolleys look good.


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## anm (Aug 25, 2005)

Rail_Serbia said:


> I was in Moscow in novemeber 2008. and by my oppinion, Mosow surface public transport is very bad.
> 
> - On some cogested roads trolleybusses and busses move slower then walking speed. Why there are no bus/trolleybus lanes in congested rads, when bulevards are wide?
> - There are a lot of busses, trolleybusses and tramways which have 3-4 doors, but open only the front door. That make public transport slow and uncomfortable.
> ...



A lot of what you say is true, and they are working on these problems but slower than we would to see it.

The front door is open for entrance (other doors are for exit only).


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## anm (Aug 25, 2005)

from www.parovoz.com

http://transit.parovoz.com/muralist...=0&REGION=RU77&TAKENON=&DESCR=&AUTHOR=&MONTH=










tram jam






















































































































another tram jam


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## Aokromes (Jan 5, 2005)

¿2nd hand bus from Continental-Auto, or Russia have That there too?


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## L2 (Aug 19, 2008)

russianpride said:


> This is ZIU trolleybus. Most of them are out of service now.


Really? The stream of them near the Sokolniki metro station at all hours seemed nearly endless when I was there.

Didn't get to ride any unfortunately  but did get photos still on my computer. Route 32 is the one I got most shots of.


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## warden987 (Jul 6, 2009)

_Night City Dream_ said:


> Once I take some pics, I'll definitely show it. Scratches and especially damages are not worked out well. I've already said about the painting quality. Just compare it with what happens to the busses in Europe, for example, they way they are painted. In Moscow, it's not the case, unfortunately. They use low-cost diluted, usually not-for-vehicles-oriented paint which can be used only for wooden fences.
> 
> There IS corrosion, believe me. Usually you can see it on the edge of the wing, above the wheel, and of course, on the doors. And by the way, corrosion develops also after damages because of bad maintenance.
> 
> ...



Still, we don't have pictures of those corrosion-stricken, rusty and dilapidated trams, trolleybuses and buses you saw that much in Moscow. Maybe you confused another Russian city with Moscow because really there are many unpleasant-looking vehicles even in Saint Petersburg, let alone other Russian cities or maybe everything you have told is just a barefaced fib?


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## warden987 (Jul 6, 2009)

L2 said:


> Really? The stream of them near the Sokolniki metro station at all hours seemed nearly endless when I was there.
> 
> Didn't get to ride any unfortunately  but did get photos still on my computer. Route 32 is the one I got most shots of.


There are more than 1600 trolleybus vehicles in Moscow and almost 98 percent of them were old ZiU models as far ago as 2002, right now ZIU models are less than a third of all the trolleybuses and it means there are less than 400 of them and it means that more than a 1000 of tham were discarded.

And Moscow has the biggest amount of trolleybuses and trams that are in service in the whole world


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## Petr (May 8, 2004)

^^
How many did you mean by the biggest amount of trams?


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## warden987 (Jul 6, 2009)

Petr said:


> ^^
> How many did you mean by the biggest amount of trams?[/QUOTE
> 
> there are a little less than a 1000 tram cars in Moscow and to say the truth this is the public transport I like most in Moscow because there are almost no drab cars and all cars look well-tended.


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## Petr (May 8, 2004)

^^
1000 is not that much. In Warsaw which is a few times smaller than Moscow, but where trams are still main mean of public transport, there is 850 cars with control cab in service. Judging by the pics unlike in Moscow, in Warsaw over 90% of cars are formed in double sets.
Trams are great supplement to subway, and those western cities which completely withdrew trams made a huge mistake. On small distance going by tram is much more pleasant and effective than use of subway. Separate lanes for trams need also much less place than lanes for buses. Trams are more capacious and more stable than buses. Finally they have much longer vitality.


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## coth (Oct 16, 2003)

trams were mainly replaced by buses.

as of 2009
http://mos.ru/?documentId=120736

*buses* (city state owned operator only included)
5528 cars
6155km of route length
612 routes

*trolleys*
1658 cars
970km of route length
103 routes

*trams*
919 cars
436km of routh length
43 routes


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## particlez (May 5, 2008)

^warsaw is also a much smaller city than moscow. as such, trams are more effective both because of the smaller distances, and because there generally would be fewer vehicles that compete for road space. that said, warsaw, moscow and basically all the former eastern block nations built highly effective transport networks.

it's hard to convey, but there ideally should be an inverse correlation between tramway reliance and population size. and larger cities with trams should generally have faster, higher capacity, grade separated rail transport too.


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## Petr (May 8, 2004)

coth said:


> trams were mainly replaced by buses.
> 
> as of 2009
> http://mos.ru/?documentId=120736
> ...


The main difference makes metro. In Warsaw construction of the second line will began next year. Moscow has 12 lines. 
When it comes to buses in Warsaw there is 1776 cars in service.
http://www.przegubowiec.com/fakty/bus/ilo-tot.htm 
We don't have trolleys.



particlez said:


> ^warsaw is also a much smaller city than moscow. as such, trams are more effective both because of the smaller distances, and because there generally would be fewer vehicles that compete for road space. that said, warsaw, moscow and basically all the former eastern block nations built highly effective transport networks.
> 
> it's hard to convey, but there ideally should be an inverse correlation between tramway reliance and population size. and larger cities with trams should generally have faster, higher capacity, grade separated rail transport too.


In Warsaw bus lines are developed constantly. Also, they want to open trial metrobus line (operating on separate lane, subway frequency). But Warsaw has ambitious plans of constructing new separate tram lines and upgrading old ones as well. City ordered 186 new trams. EU founds are helpful, because according to the EU policy rail transport is preferred.
Communists in Poland unlike in other countries of the block neglected construction of subway. In cities of Warsaw size and even more of Moscow size trams can perform only supplement function to subway (Porto like LTR is borderline case). Buses are good for far suburbs and other less dense areas. They demand more space than trams in relation to their capacity. Without separate lanes, standing in traffic jams they are not attractive for potential users. Public transport in urban areas must be frequent, comfortable, easy accessible, and faster than cars standing traffic jams to be competitive. On small distance accessibility is a key factor, like speed on big distance.


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## ode of bund (Dec 19, 2005)

coth said:


> trams were mainly replaced by buses.
> 
> as of 2009
> http://mos.ru/?documentId=120736
> ...



Does that mean there are duplications in route number assignment? A route 28 trolley-bus, a route 28 motor bus, and a route 28 tram?


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## ode of bund (Dec 19, 2005)

coth said:


> mm, water shortage in public transport?



I mean Moscow city as a whole, does she have water shortage issue?


----------



## coth (Oct 16, 2003)

yes, all types have independent numbering 

no, thereis no water shortage. volga is large enough for most of russia's largest cities, including moscow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_River


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

On Victory Day some buses and trolleybuses were carrying a special livery dedicated to the II World War and the Victory of the Soviet Union. As I understand, the livery then would be dismantled.

You can see they all are differently decorated.

Some pics:

Фотографии в альбоме «9 мая 2010 года - День Победы» night-city-dream на Яндекс.Фотках



[more]
























































































































Some Bonus:







09.05.2010.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

In Moscow some stops were decorated by interesting ads of Coca Cola. As you know, we've had over +33...+35 since mid-June. So, a stop like this looks like an oasis in a desert:


Посмотреть на Яндекс.Фотках


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## Armidall (Jul 27, 2010)

_Night City Dream_ said:


> +33...+35



yesterday was +38.. i saw it on central telegraph building thermometer.


well.. those bus stations with decoration are not our saviors


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah but it looks quite fresh.


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## coth (Oct 16, 2003)

Several new bus and trolley models taken by Quantum REX. Those will make a main part of future orders.
http://metroblog.ru/post/3395/


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

warden987 said:


> Still, we don't have pictures of those corrosion-stricken, rusty and dilapidated trams, trolleybuses and buses you saw that much in Moscow. Maybe you confused another Russian city with Moscow because really there are many unpleasant-looking vehicles even in Saint Petersburg, let alone other Russian cities or maybe everything you have told is just a barefaced fib?


No, I meant Moscow. I am sorry to have forgotten about this, as soon as I have time I will. By the way as I can see, over the last several months Moscow has got a decent amount of new buses, the old ones being write-offs.

but there are still lots of not so old trolleybuses, which are in a bad condition. I promise to take pictures.

Now, for foreign users I'd like to tell that Moscow has a lot of non-articulated buses like this (usually some 14 - 16 m long):


http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/night-city-dream/view/319555/


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

^^ Cheap Belarussian MAZ built on truck chassis. Widest turn radius in the industry. Moscow needs to stop buying buses from dictators.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

What truck chassis are you talking about if it is a completely lower-floor bus? Why are you talking about some dictators? Lack of personal mind or what?


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Liaz 5292.22 of the last generation, new orders.

As you can see some drivers still like decorating their buses with different stuff. This trend used to be very popular in late 80s - 90s but now it's officially forbidden.









8 .06. 2013.


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## Aokromes (Jan 5, 2005)

How much buses have Moscow?


----------



## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Well, a nice site by a friend of mine - http://busphoto.ru/show.php?t=1&cid=110 count's up ~6200 buses, but that includes intercity buses based in Moscow, Police buses and etc.

If you are interested in urban transit buses only you can sum up the statistics of depots 1..19 of Mosgortrans - http://busphoto.ru/city/110/ by clicking on "list of the models" (switch to English is available in upper-right corner) for each depot


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## Darhet (Dec 13, 2006)

Moscow orders 120 low-floor trams built by polish PESA.
70 cars to be delivered by the end of 2014 and the remaining 50 before the end of 2015. 

In Polish
http://www.rynek-kolejowy.pl/46058/Pesy_dostarczy_120_tramwajow_dla_Moskwy.htm





PESA-Swing 120Na:



















Pesa Duo:










PEsa Jazz:


----------



## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

What the hell? Why they refused from Bombardier?

It's catastrophe.

hno::cripes::wallbash:


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## Spassky (Apr 19, 2012)

^^That's strange. But we still don't have confirmation of this news from russian sources.


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## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

Do PESA have any experience of successful operation in the developed European states?


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## WotaN (Jun 15, 2004)

AlekseyVT said:


> Do PESA have any experience of successful operation in the developed European states?


You mean, like, in Poland, Czech Republic or Hungary? Well yes, thank you, with more than 300 electric and diesel railcars, and more than 250 trams performing nicely one may say it's a success. Plus the contract signed in September 2012 with Deutsche Bahn for up to 470 Link multiple units with net worth around EUR 1,2 bln. Already delivered vehicles for companies in Italy seem to work as well.


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Well, they do have experience in Russia - Kaliningrad... Anyway, the story seams strange to me.


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## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

WotaN said:


> You mean, like, in Poland, Czech Republic or Hungary? Well yes, thank you, with more than 300 electric and diesel railcars, and more than 250 trams performing nicely one may say it's a success.


Well, it seem that supplying of tramcars into two Eastern European countries is really great success for every Polish company...



XAN_ said:


> Well, they do have experience in Russia - Kaliningrad... Anyway, the story seams strange to me.


Kaliningrad is only 40th most populated Russian city. Knowing about its obsolete tram infrastructure and history of demolition of Kaliningrad tramlines during last 12 years, the buying of one low-floor Polish tramcar is the real progress for that provincial city.

But how it works for Russian capital with much larger financial opportunities and ambitious programm for development of urban transport? Why need to buy cheap second-class rolling stock?


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## friedrichstrasse (Jan 8, 2007)

WotaN said:


> Already delivered vehicles for companies in Italy seem to work as well.


They do ^^


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## Hellmut (Mar 26, 2012)

AlekseyVT said:


> Well, it seem that supplying of tramcars into two Eastern European countries is really great success for every Polish company...


Considering how long history of PESA is, then yes, it's a great success taking orders from other than Polish cities (not countries, those do not buy trams). If you're interested in just countries after all, then PESA trams ride in two Central European, one Southeastern (+ one more in progress) and one Eurasian. I didn't include rail vehicles.

You can find portfolio of PESA here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PESA_SA (check out the models in the table).



> Kaliningrad is only 40th most populated Russian city. Knowing about its obsolete tram infrastructure and history of demolition of Kaliningrad tramlines during last 12 years, the buying of one low-floor Polish tramcar is the real progress for that provincial city.


I heard they wanted to order more. Unfortunately I don't know how it ended.


> But how it works for Russian capital with much larger financial opportunities and ambitious programm for development of urban transport?


Sorry, I don't know the answer. Guess we should ask somebody who knows how public spending is regulated in Russian state-owned companies, what are the criteria of choosing the contractor and product.


> Why need to buy cheap second-class rolling stock?


I would restrain from such comments since we still don't know the value of the contract nor the specification of the ordered tram. So we can't say it's cheap or second-class.

However, I'm sorry if you didn't like the PESA trams. I rode both Swing (in Warsaw) and Bombardier trams in Kraków and I don't find the latter any better (maybe except the design, and even this only in NGT8 model). But it's a matter of opinions. Where did you took the ride of PESA tram (or maybe heard the opinions of someone who did)? Maybe they don't pay too much attention to vehicle maintenance where you have been.


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

AlekseyVT said:


> What the hell? Why they refused from Bombardier?
> 
> It's catastrophe.
> 
> hno::cripes::wallbash:


It's a very good tram, not worse than Bombardier, Poland also produces Solaris Tramino which are even better (in terms of design).
Russia should focus on improving its tram infrastructure like Poland did, because condition of Russian tram rails is horrible, and these beautiful trams will be devastated because of it, its like buying Porsche for unpaved country roads.


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

AlekseyVT said:


> Kaliningrad is only 40th most populated Russian city. Knowing about its obsolete tram infrastructure and history of demolition of Kaliningrad tramlines during last 12 years, the buying of one low-floor Polish tramcar is the real progress for that provincial city.
> 
> But how it works for Russian capital with much larger financial opportunities and ambitious programm for development of urban transport? Why need to buy cheap second-class rolling stock?


You misunderstood me - it's totally OK that Kaliningrad bought PESA.
I just don't get what is going on in Moscow - is that PESA trams will be instead, or in addition to Bombardier order?


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## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

XAN_ said:


> You misunderstood me - it's totally OK that Kaliningrad bought PESA.
> I just don't get what is going on in Moscow - is that PESA trams will be instead, or in addition to Bombardier order?


Previously it was declared that Bombardier (in cooperation with Uralwagonzavod Plant) won tender for supplying if new tramcars in Moscow. 70 tramcars to be delivered by the end of 2014 and the remaining 50 before the end of 2015 (the same numbers of tramcars were mentioned in Polish article). So, if these rumors are correct, PESA will be work with Uralwagonzavod instead of Bombardier.

http://top.rbc.ru/economics/14/12/2012/836721.shtml

In April 2013 Bombardier and Uralwagonzavod signed new agreements at the Hannover Messe (world's biggest industrial fair) in Germany.

http://fedpress.ru/news/econom/revi...uyut-proizvodit-vagony-dlya-stolichnogo-metro


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## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

markfos said:


> It's a very good tram, not worse than Bombardier, Poland also produces Solaris Tramino which are even better (in terms of design).


If these tramcars are so perfect, why they not supplying in other EU cities in Germany, France, etc. The fact is that Bombardier has much larger international market. As it was mentioned, they even sell it to Poland (Krakow). 

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/light-rail/krakow-receives-final-flexity-lrv.html?channel=542

May be, Polish tramcars has better design (I'm not expert in design), but we should cooperate with leaders of transport manufacturing.



markfos said:


> Russia should focus on improving its tram infrastructure like Poland did, because condition of Russian tram rails is horrible, and these beautiful trams will be devastated because of it, its like buying Porsche for unpaved country roads.


Although it's sad truth for many Russian cities, I don't think that Moscow tramlines are such horrible as you mentioned.


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

AlekseyVT said:


> If these tramcars are so perfect, why they not supplying in other EU cities in Germany, France, etc. The fact is that Bombardier has much larger international market. As it was mentioned, they even sell it to Poland (Krakow).
> 
> http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/light-rail/krakow-receives-final-flexity-lrv.html?channel=542
> 
> ...


Germany ordered 470 trains from Polish PESA for 1,2 bn €!, they checked the quality before this gigantic order and admitted its a top quality product.










http://www.railway-technology.com/news/newspesa-build-470-dmus-deutsche-bahn

But as I said, your tram rail infrastructure is horrible, nowhere near to the Polish infrastructure so these trams will be in a poor condition if you don't improve it.

Your future trams :cheers:


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## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

markfos said:


> Germany ordered 470 trains from Polish PESA for 1,2 bn €!, they checked the quality before this gigantic order and admitted its a top quality product.
> 
> http://www.railway-technology.com/news/newspesa-build-470-dmus-deutsche-bahn


Do you understand difference between tra*ms* and tra*ins*?


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

^^^ yes I did, but it also refers to trams, we have them in most Polish cities and they work perfectly, do you think that Germany would buy trains from company which produces bad quality trams? I doubt. You can find PESA trams in Italy and Germany as well.

PESA site in Russian if you'd like to get more information.

http://pesa.pl/ru/


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## Adiks (Jun 22, 2003)

Well I do understand the attitude. Its not well-known company. I would have also liked Nokia mobile phone way more than Samsung mobile phone. Some like 10 years ago. But times have changed and Samsung is the global leader now. Clever thinking made the company go all the way up. It's just the example of underestimating a company. Not related to the quality of products though. Give PESA a chance and if you don't like it for some reasonable reasons, then you can bash the company. Otherwise, I would strain from it.


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

I rode SWING trams in Gdańsk many times and they are really comfortable, I can't say the bad word about them, though I must admit that I like another Polish tram even more - Solaris Tramino.


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## ufonut (Jul 24, 2007)

PESA in Szeged, Hungary


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## petersgriff (Jun 2, 2011)

markfos said:


> Russia should focus on improving its tram infrastructure like Poland did, because condition of Russian tram rails is horrible, and these beautiful trams will be devastated because of it, its like buying Porsche for unpaved country roads.


Bingo!
Modernization of tram infrastructure and production of own modern-tramcar (as it was made by Poland in the 2000th). It will be the correct decision.


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## outage (Jun 22, 2013)

AlekseyVT said:


> But how it works for Russian capital with much larger financial opportunities and ambitious programm for development of urban transport? Why need to buy cheap second-class rolling stock?


Maybe it is capital but your KTMs looks like from third sort of province. Comparing to PESA it is three generations back. I think that trams in Moscow are in middle of 40ties according to technology and PESA would be big step into future for you.


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## Iluminat (Jan 16, 2008)

http://wyborcza.pl/1,75248,14143136,120_tramwajow_Pesy_dla_Moskwy__Gigantyczny_sukces.html

According to this article 7 other Russian cities are interested with Pesa trams, talks with Yakaterinburg are the most advanced at this moment.


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

^^ From this article you can read that the PESA tram in Kaliningrad was the first low-floor tram in the whole Russia, WTF?:nuts: Only in my city 75 % are low-floor trams while buses 100%.


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## Iluminat (Jan 16, 2008)

^^first 100% low-floor tram


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## petersgriff (Jun 2, 2011)

outage said:


> Maybe it is capital but your KTMs looks like from third sort of province. Comparing to PESA it is three generations back. I think that trams in Moscow are in middle of 40ties according to technology and PESA would be big step into future for you.


It is good for our relations. Warsaw buys subways rolling stock in Russia, and Moscow trams in Poland.
I want to say that we (russians) should themselves take that step forward, as Poland from Konstal-tram to PESA/Solaris, and Russia should take the step from KTM-tram to own modern-tramcars.


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

petersgriff said:


> It is good for our relations. *Warsaw buys subways rolling stock in Russia*, and Moscow trams in Poland.
> I want to say that we (russians) should themselves take that step forward, as Poland from Konstal-tram to PESA/Solaris, and Russia should take the step from KTM-tram to own modern-tramcars.


Well, it was 5 years ago, now Warsaw bought 35 Siemens Inspiro for a new metro line


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## petersgriff (Jun 2, 2011)

markfos said:


> Well, it was 5 years ago, now Warsaw bought 35 Siemens Inspiro for a new metro line


And..?


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

^^ Warsaw is no more interested in Russian made metro trains, they rejected Russian offer twice. Russian company protested the result of tender twice but each time it lost it.


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## petersgriff (Jun 2, 2011)

markfos said:


> ^^ Warsaw is no more interested in Russian made metro trains, they rejected Russian offer twice. Russian company protested the result of tender twice but each time it lost it.


Noch einmal - and..? 
Warsaw bought rolling stock from Moscow and Petersburg? Yes, it is fact. 
Moscow buys trams in Poland? Probably, but it is not a fact.
This somehow offends you? I don't think so.


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## petersgriff (Jun 2, 2011)

*markfos* please don't take offense at me.


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

Why would I? Everything is fine, cheers.


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## petersgriff (Jun 2, 2011)

Ok:cheers1:


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## outage (Jun 22, 2013)

petersgriff said:


> It is good for our relations. Warsaw buys subways rolling stock in Russia, and Moscow trams in Poland.
> I want to say that we (russians) should themselves take that step forward, as Poland from Konstal-tram to PESA/Solaris, and Russia should take the step from KTM-tram to own modern-tramcars.


As far I know these trams will be made in some local factory.

Anyway Konstal-tram has nothing to do with PESA / Solaris. Solaris it is a new technology brought by Neoplan in nineties and thanks to owner it became one of the top urban buses manufacturers in the Europe. Konstal was sold to Alsom and dissappeared as a brand. PESA is successor of repair works for PKP and it is surprised that they have grown so much (won tenders for Warszawa, Gdańsk, Szeged, Szczecin). Now Sofia is about to buy PESA trams also.


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## petersgriff (Jun 2, 2011)

Thanks, I know it.


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## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

*June 21, 2013. The new 71-623-02 tramcars at the Rusakov tram depot №5:*








bruhlet

*June 22, 2013. The testing of new 71-623-02 tramcar №5605 at the Stromynka Street:*








Guaglione

*June 22, 2013. The beginning of the passenger operation of the new 71-623-02 tramcar №5606 at the Greater Cherkizovskaya Street, tram route №13:*








Guaglione

*June 22, 2013. The beginning of the passenger operation of the new 71-623-02 tramcar №5606 at the Stromynka Street, tram route №13:*








Guaglione


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

AlexeyVT, please stop your political off-topic. I am Russian and I prefer Bombardier, too, but I am asking you to stop calling Pesa trams "cheap and second-class". At least they are much better than all tramcars designed and made in Russia.

Pseudo-patriotism is not here to stay.


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

Here in Gdańsk we have both Bombardier and Pesa Swing trams, and I must say that Swings are even more comfortable because of the bigger space. I bet You will be satisfied with these trams.

Here you have a video form Swing's interior in Warsaw.


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## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

outage said:


> Please remember that you started to complain in this tone:
> "Peeesa - why not Bombardier, Poland is backward... why we did not buy Bombardier... etc".


Because it was widely declared that future tramcars will be made in cooperation with Bombardier (according to result of last year's tender). That's why it's logical that there appeared similar questions.

As for "backward Poland" - it was correctly mentioned that PESA production is presented on the world market at a much smaller scale. I think it's logical thing in business that companies with solid reputation are more welcomed for large international deals than newcomers. I hope you will not deny it.



outage said:


> About blackouts and break in services. How can I prove? I have some photos but how can I take photo of not arriving tram so that is not all.


Nobody will deny that the operation of Moscow tramcars is not regular. As it was correctly mentioned, it's a common thing that operation at tramline can be very slow in conditions of dense road traffic (if tramline is not separated from road lanes). Also, car accidents at tramlines can stop operation of tramcars for much time (but even in this case, delays for two or more hours are extremely rare).

But you wrote what you also saw "lack of voltage" and "broken pantographs" during your short trip in Moscow. With all respect, it's very hardly to believe in all such things "in one place at the same time". Such problems are extremely rare in Moscow, and its probability is close to zero. That leaves two options - you are either very "lucky man" or simply liar. 

P.S. As I can see, almost all your posts at SSC were wrote in this thread, and you specially registrated for that. This leads to some thoughts...


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## MareCar (Jun 6, 2006)

markfos said:


> Well, if Moscow decided to buy Polish Pesa trams, its weird they chose Twist trams instead of Swing, which is obviously the better tramcar for the big city like Moscow.


How is it obvious? They are both available in different lenghts, and are both 30-something meters long, and can both be had with the same track width and body width. So where's the difference?
Not to mention that the tram we see in the render looks different than other Twist's, so there really isn't a "model" to talk about, as they both can be configured differently. A Twist can be larger than a Swing, and the other way around. The model names probably only refer to the way their bogies are mated with the body, nothing else. The Swing has hanging bodies, the Twist has not completely hanging bodies, but all bodies solidly lean on bogies.

The one for Moscow is 4 meters shorter than the Swing models that are running around, but it is also one meter wider. It is a specially made model for Moscow. It has almost the same nominal capacity as the Swing with 5 modules, just 17 passengers short.

But since the tram in Moscow only has a low number of passengers, and the people there use it differently than in other European cities, it could very well be exactly what they need. I think they know that better than any of you guys who live in Poland and have never lived in Moscow, and don't manage their public transport system.
I mean, they aren't building one from nothing, so that your theorethisizing about how many people live in that city would be of any relevance. They already have a tram system and they know what their needs are, and they made their tender requirements accordingly, they also already have trains, and these trains are a lot smaller and are still enough to do their job, so I think they will do fine, even with the Twist which has 17 passengers less than the Swing. :|

Here are their current trams, now look at their capacity and how they are used (mostly in single cab role), and think again if the Twist is not enough for what Moscow thinks they need from a tram. 

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/71-608
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/71-619

Seriously, you poles on this website are really something else. Here you have a moment where an industrial company from your country grabbed a large order in Moscow (over the large, world-famous, competitors), and there could be a lot more business to be made with Moscow in the future (license production, more orders = more money, more exposure, more references, "proven", more orders from somewhere else), and what do you guys do? 
You could be glad that they picked a Polish company, and maybe use that moment to lay some of your animosities towards them to rest, or at least rethink them. Maybe even recognize that you are in fact not an enemy, not even a fly in their room, to them, as you always imagine you are. You could be happy about the success for the workers of your country, and everyone else who lives off their work. But instead you go jump at the tiny bone that you have found in this to use it to get into your familiar "We are smarter than those idiots in Moscow. We normal people here know a lot better what Moscow's public transport needs than the people who are running it! Everyone there is obviously an idiot!!" mode. hno:

Edit:

And how come they ordered PESA, what happened to this?
http://themoscownews.com/business/20120716/189967238.html

I can't believe they are ordering Polish made products over Russian made products.


----------



## DimonS (Jun 18, 2011)

Actually, Moscow has a contract with Uraltransmash and Uraltransmash is ordering trams from PESA now. PESA is just a sort of a subcontractor.


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## petersgriff (Jun 2, 2011)

markfos said:


> Well, if Moscow decided to buy Polish Pesa trams, its weird they chose Twist trams instead of Swing, which is obviously the better tramcar for the big city like Moscow.





MareCar said:


> How is it obvious? They are both available in different lenghts, and are both 30-something meters long, and can both be had with the same track width and body width. So where's the difference?
> Not to mention that the tram we see in the render looks different than other Twist's, so there really isn't a "model" to talk about, as they both can be configured differently. A Twist can be larger than a Swing, and the other way around. The model names probably only refer to the way their bogies are mated with the body, nothing else. The Swing has hanging bodies, the Twist has not completely hanging bodies, but all bodies solidly lean on bogies.


Moscow really wants 100% low-floor tram, but she wants also _rotary bogie_ (I am not confident this name in english, polish - "wózka skrętny"). Here approaches *only* Twist, but not Swing.



MareCar said:


> Edit:
> 
> And how come they ordered PESA, what happened to this?
> http://themoscownews.com/business/20120716/189967238.html
> ...


1) Do not trust to media. In photo Bombardier FLEXITY Outlook for Austrian Linz.

2) De-iure Moscow bought trams from Uraltransmash. Uraltransmash really working with Bombardier and they must work together to develop a new tram for Moscow. 
Probably they are experiencing any difficulties with development of _rotary bogie_ and now they are attracted this Pesa-company. In Russian media there is information (official) that PESA joins in this project, but Uraltransmash and Bombardier will continue to work together.
Very complicated story.
Emphasize again - De-iure Moscow bought trams from Uraltransmash (not Bombardier or Pesa), it's the official contract.


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## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

outage said:


> What about this project?
> http://www.moscowlrt.ru/primary.html
> 
> It looks nice but It needs fleet with minimum 45meters long, average speed 30km/h and interval about 5 minutes.


Recently it was declared that lines of rapid tram (i.e. with full isolation of tracks) will not be built in Moscow. Instead of it, there will be built traditional tramlines.


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## Surel (May 5, 2010)

^^
I wonder why Skoda did not enter a tender for Moscow. Are there any Skoda trams in Moscow?

Skoda produced the first 100 % low floor tram in the world with articulating bogies and jacobs bogies between the segments (i.e. all the bogies rotate). It is really revolutionary design, one step ahead of the competition. It also had huge tender in Prague for 250 trams (I believe the biggest world contract).

Would you like this tram in Moscow?









http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Škoda_15_T


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## petersgriff (Jun 2, 2011)

Surel said:


> ^^
> I wonder why Skoda did not enter a tender for Moscow. trams in Moscow?


I do not know...
But:
_"RUSSIA: Czech rolling stock manufacturer Škoda Transportation and Kirovsky Zavod signed a memorandum of understanding on April 22 for each to invest US$20m in the creation of an equally-owned joint venture to produce *trams*, metro trains and double-deck EMUs for the Russian market in St Petersburg."_
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/skoda-kirov-joint-venture-agreement.html

Or:
http://www.raillynews.com/2013/kiro...tion-of-metro-cars-trams-and-electric-trains/



Surel said:


> Are there any Skoda


No, only Tatra and VarioLF.




Surel said:


> Skoda produced the first 100 % low floor tram in the world with articulating bogies and jacobs bogies between the segments (i.e. all the bogies rotate). It is really revolutionary design, one step ahead of the competition. It also had huge tender in Prague for 250 trams (I believe the biggest world contract).
> 
> Would you like this tram in Moscow?



No-no-no, only in Petersburg:cheers:
Škoda-Kirovsky ForCity Petersburg Tramcar...:drool::drool::drool::drool:


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## outage (Jun 22, 2013)

AlekseyVT said:


> Recently it was declared that lines of rapid tram (i.e. with full isolation of tracks) will not be built in Moscow. Instead of it, there will be built traditional tramlines.


So. Everything that is done would be in vain.
Like here:


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Nope. AFAIK, Transport department wanted to say, that it won't build 100% grade separated tram lines, which makes perfect sense in most cases - European cities don't to tend to build them also. But that doesn't mean that lines would be 100% blended either - lines that are separated from parallel traffic, but have single-level crossings are totally fine and cost-effective.


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## Surel (May 5, 2010)

XAN_ said:


> Nope. AFAIK, Transport department wanted to say, that it won't build 100% grade separated tram lines, which makes perfect sense in most cases - European cities don't to tend to build them also. But that doesn't mean that lines would be 100% blended either - lines that are separated from parallel traffic, but have single-level crossings are totally fine and cost-effective.


The lines would not need to be separated if the Moscow's drivers did not drive on them in their cars. I guess that anything else than hard separation won't work in Moscow.

In the case of intersections there is no separation needed of course, just adjustment of the traffic lights for the PT priority.


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Well, classic soviet Rapid Tram (like Kyiv or Kryvyi Rih) are traditionally 100% grade separated from anything and anywhere, just like metro, through it never was a strict requirement.
So if Moscow choose to do it not classic way, but more like modern European style way - it's totally ok


----------



## Surel (May 5, 2010)

XAN_ said:


> Well, classic soviet Rapid Tram (like Kyiv or Kryvyi Rih) are traditionally 100% grade separated from anything and anywhere, just like metro, through it never was a strict requirement.
> So if Moscow choose to do it not classic way, but more like modern European style way - it's totally ok


Whatever design they chose its ok, if it secures that PT is reliable, quick, on time, has absolute priority to the car traffic (certainly the tram traffic). If the road traffic hinders the PT (especially in the case of trams) it is a bad design and wasted money.

So tell me, will this design fulfill those conditions?


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Well, the article doesn't specify, what does "traditional" mean - there are a lot of 70s-80s lines, separated from parallel traffic, but with single-level intersections, so they can be regarded as traditional as well. Fully blended lines are typically from 60s-50s, if not pre-war.


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## Surel (May 5, 2010)

^^

Its just what @Outage wrote. If it will be like this: www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=104818291&postcount=201

it is wasted investment.


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## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

Surel said:


> ^^
> 
> Its just what @Outage wrote. If it will be like this: www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=104818291&postcount=201
> 
> it is wasted investment.


Nope. Nobody claimed that it will be done in such way. It was only said that the future tramlines will not be 100%-isolated from road traffic. It's mean there will be no built additional overpasses or underground tunnels in order to avoid intersections with road lanes. 

Of course, it was very predictable that our Polish friend decided that all tramlines will be built as it was done at the above-mentioned photo. But in reality there exists other ways for separation of tramlines. That's what was said by city authorities.









Александр Гришин









Вива


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## Surel (May 5, 2010)

^^
Yep, that's the way to do it. It would not even be a problem if the track were part of the road, if the drivers always gave priority to the trams, but I guess it is impossible to enforce. It could work only in short sections that would clear fast.

Are there special priority traffic lights for the trams?


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## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

Surel said:


> Are there special priority traffic lights for the trams?


Nowadays there are no priority traffic lights for the trams in Moscow. However, this measure is seen as one of possible way for separation of tram operation from road traffic at future lines.

There is full text of article (sorry, I have no time for translation):



> *Скоростного трамвая в Москве не будет*
> 
> Линии будут прокладываться по «классической» технологии, но по ним пустят современные составы
> 
> ...


Speaking in general, it's very difficult to discuss this project because we don't know all details. Such discussion is no more than set of our thoughts and desires. Let's will wait more detailed information.


----------



## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Surel said:


> ^^
> Yep, that's the way to do it. It would not even be a problem if the track were part of the road, if the drivers always gave priority to the trams, but I guess it is impossible to enforce. It could work only in short sections that would clear fast.
> 
> Are there special priority traffic lights for the trams?


Well, there are lot of traffic cameras being installed right now, so I suppose it's possible to enforce tram separation.


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## outage (Jun 22, 2013)

AlekseyVT said:


> Of course, it was very predictable that our Polish friend decided that all tramlines will be built as it was done at the above-mentioned photo. But in reality there exists other ways for separation of tramlines. That's what was said by city authorities.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw it. My photo was taken about 1 kilometer from this Sokolniki. But in Russia separated tracks are not a problem for drivers. Like here:











Ok. You will separate part of tram route but in the end there is a crossing and what we can see there?
Tram traffic jam:


We have to separate whole tramline and give priority on crossings in this case but I think in Moscow it is mission impossible.


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## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

outage said:


> I saw it. My photo was taken about 1 kilometer from this Sokolniki. But in Russia separated tracks are not a problem for drivers. Like here:


I'm totally agree what this picture is typical for Russia. But at least, as you can see, this donkey in the car can't create so much problems for tram operation like all these cars at the right part. The percentage of these violators is not so high.



outage said:


> Ok. You will separate part of tram route but in the end there is a crossing and what we can see there?
> Tram traffic jam:
> 
> 
> We have to separate whole tramline and give priority on crossings in this case but I think in Moscow it is mission impossible.


I guess it's not due to crossing, but due to car trash at the tramlines (because road lanes are empty). When I write "crossing" I mean *+*-shaped intersection.


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## outage (Jun 22, 2013)

AlekseyVT said:


> I'm totally agree what this picture is typical for Russia. But at least, as you can see, this donkey in the car can't create so much problems for tram operation like all these cars at the right part. The percentage of these violators is not so high.


I saw traffic jams on tracks. These trams have to ride about 60km/h to achieve 30 of average speed. In this case one car can totally disrupt service. 



AlekseyVT said:


> I guess it's not due to crossing, but due to car trash at the tramlines (because road lanes are empty). When I write "crossing" I mean *+*-shaped intersection.


No accident - just normal "priority" of tram on signals and cars cutting off trams.


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## metr0p0litain (Aug 16, 2012)

PESA's trams for moscow will be based on TWIST:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/uploads/pics/tn_ru-pesa_moscow_tram_design.jpg


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## outage (Jun 22, 2013)

metr0p0litain said:


> PESA's trams for moscow will be based on TWIST:
> 
> http://www.railwaygazette.com/uploads/pics/tn_ru-pesa_moscow_tram_design.jpg


Hmm... reprint from Rynek Kolejowy - is there any official document in Russia? For example Mosgortrans page?


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## petersgriff (Jun 2, 2011)

outage said:


> Hmm... reprint from Rynek Kolejowy - is there any official document in Russia? For example Mosgortrans page?


No...


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

A funny joke article in the Moscow Times

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/...llite-towns-by-2015-governor-says/483245.html


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## outage (Jun 22, 2013)

Woonsocket54 said:


> A funny joke article in the Moscow Times
> 
> http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/...llite-towns-by-2015-governor-says/483245.html


One day I tried to get to Noginsk by train. I gave up.


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## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

outage said:


> One day I tried to get to Noginsk by train.


It's very interesting to know - what did you want to see in Noginsk?



outage said:


> I gave up.


Due to lack of voltage or due to broken pantographs of the suburban trains?


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

*MOSCOW | Bus 905*

July 1 saw the first run of express bus 905 from Belorussky railway terminal to the MKAD beltway. 



















The bus makes a few stops along the way, including at Voykovskaya, Sokol and Dinamo stations on Metro Line 2. The MKAD terminus has a park-and-ride for use of suburban commuters.

More info in Russian here: http://www.metromost.com/?p=3006#more-3006


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Volokolamskaya is on line 3.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

You might have confused Voykovskaya with Volokolamskaya.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, sorry.


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## outage (Jun 22, 2013)

Estimated travel time during peak - 4 hours


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## outage (Jun 22, 2013)

AlekseyVT said:


> It's very interesting to know - what did you want to see in Noginsk?


Their tram 



AlekseyVT said:


> Due to lack of voltage or due to broken pantographs of the suburban trains?


I missed one about 10am and next one was about 3 hours to wait. It is not normal frequency of suburban train  No comparision to german s-bahn


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Tram track along Prospect Mira.



8 .08. 2013.

Tram terminus will soon get a platform.


http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/night-city-dream/view/677707/

4 .08. 2013.

All photos are clickable ang geo-tagged.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

I guess Moscow will be starting overnight bus, trolleybus and tram service on select routes beginning next month. That's definitely a good development.


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## outage (Jun 22, 2013)

russianpride said:


> My friend, you are so preconceived. I have never seen rusty and smoking buses in Moscow. Compare to others cities, Moscow buses are maintained rather well.


Compare to which cities? Karaganda, Suchumi and Kabul? :bash:

I have seen a lot of rusty buses in Moscow - especially Ikaruses and old Liazes.


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## coth (Oct 16, 2003)

When? 20 years ago? I don't even remember when I've seen Ikarus last time.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

I've recently seen one but it is indeed a rare case.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Some pictures of railways within Moscow built-up area.

Yaroslavskoe line. The train frequency here is comparable to what is seen in metros. Trains run every 3 minutes. Once I saw 3 trains running along one another. Seems like in Tokyo!








































16 .08. 2013.


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## russianpride (Dec 22, 2008)

outage said:


> Compare to which cities? Karaganda, Suchumi and Kabul? :bash:
> 
> I have seen a lot of rusty buses in Moscow - especially Ikaruses and old Liazes.


Mosgortrans operate about 7000 buses and just 33 of them are old (2000-2001 models) Ikarus 280. Till the end of the year these buses will be written off.


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## petersgriff (Jun 2, 2011)

Pierre50 said:


> Do you mean that a new contract for additional tramways could be awarded differently from the contract awarded to Bombardier last year ?


I don't know.
Most likely it will be one more contract in addition to contract from UVZ(Pesa/Bombardier).


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## outage (Jun 22, 2013)

petersgriff said:


> No, it's soviet (latvian) technology.
> 
> Our technologies is:
> 
> ...


You love soviet technology - still producing Ziu clones, RVZ clones (even on prestige routes from Moscow to Airports) and KTM clones 

In Serbia rail is damaged by war and lack of money.


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## semetria (Oct 12, 2010)

Don't bother guys. This is a troll who probably is trying to start a political discussion or smth. Please don't pollute this thread.


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## Petr (May 8, 2004)

AlekseyVT said:


> Even in Russia, it doesn't look so crappy due to lack of necessary maintenance.
> 
> 
> 
> Only number of residents who officially registered in Moscow (not including residents of numerous suburbs) in 1.5 times higher than whole population of Serbia. It's silly to compare Moscow with provincial European towns in such countries like Poland or Serbia.


You're damn right, in any Polish provincial town people wouldn't be allowed to travel on a train coupling, not mentioning Polish capital. :lol:


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## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

Petr said:


> You're damn right, in any Polish provincial town people wouldn't be allowed to travel on a train coupling, not mentioning Polish capital. :lol:


Are there exist passengers at the trains in Polish provincial towns?


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## Petr (May 8, 2004)

^^
Here's polish railway network with stations: http://www.plk-sa.pl/fileadmin/PDF/mapy/2013_01_04_linie_kolejowe_750_000_LRS_HC_WWW_07.pdf
Regional railways in Poland after the EU accession are undergoing gradual revival.


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## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

Petr said:


> ^^
> This is polish railway network with stations: http://www.plk-sa.pl/fileadmin/PDF/mapy/2013_01_04_linie_kolejowe_750_000_LRS_HC_WWW_07.pdf


What numbers of daily passenger traffic in the trains between Warsaw and its suburbs?


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## ComboD (Apr 17, 2012)

Guys, what’s this contest whose infrastructure is in least bad shape? Serbia, Russia, Poland, all suffered greatly from the communist mismanagement and neglect, and keep suffering even today. When the Bombardiers and Alstoms of this world were building their dominance and expanding in the world, people in those countries were forced to watch as everything around them was slowly falling apart. That’s why I’m happy when a company like PESA can come on top of Alstom or Bombardier, because it proves that, as certain president would put it, yes we can. Think about it and stop the infighting.


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## Petr (May 8, 2004)

AlekseyVT said:


> What numbers of daily passenger traffic in the trains between Warsaw and its suburbs?


We have a few operators.
Here's a monthly ridership of *Koleje Mazowieckie* in years 2010 and 2011: http://www.mazowieckie.com.pl/g2/oryginal/2013_01/735f1c1194afc2cc1561be32a98399de.pdf
In 2011 it was 4600 k to 4800 k in all months besides summer holidays. 
For the second operator, *SKM* in period 01-10.2011 ridership was at the level of around 20% of KM according to this data: http://utk.gov.pl/download.php?s=1&id=2826, which gives ~950 k per month.
EDIT And for the third operator *WKD* it was about 13%/600 k monthy in period 01-10.2011. 
Together it was ~6200 k people per month in year 2011.
It grows every year.

But more important issue is, that in Poland train with people on the coupling wouldn't be allowed to move. That's the main difference between Poland and Russia.


----------



## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

Petr said:


> But more important issue is, that in Poland train with people on the coupling wouldn't be allowed to move.


Do you mean it wouldn't be allowed because this is technically impossible or because of service workers would prohibit it?

As you can see, service workers could hardly to do something in this situation. Even if they would notice these people, it would be necessary to stop this train and to waste time and forces in order to remove them from train. As a result, this delay would be much bigger and situation with overcrowding would be much worser.



Petr said:


> That's the main difference between Poland and Russia.


The main difference that passenger traffic in Russia is much higher than Polish ones. The population of Moscow agglomeration in 2.5 times less than whole population of Poland. The annual passenger traffic of Moscow Railway is about 600 million passengers (or about 1.5 million passengers per day), and it greatly growing every year (on 20-30%). That's why such rare and unusual incidents can lead to big problem for transportation of people. But you, guys, will always try to represent such unusual cases as ordinary day for Russian passengers, isn't it?


----------



## Petr (May 8, 2004)

AlekseyVT said:


> Do you mean it wouldn't be allowed because this is technically impossible or because of service workers would prohibit it?
> 
> As you can see, service workers could hardly to do something in this situation. Even if they would notice these people, it would be necessary to stop this train and to waste time and forces in order to remove them from train. As a result, this delay would be much bigger and situation with overcrowding would be much worser.


Workers would stop this people, otherwise if something had happened to them, they would had lost their jobs and had ended up in jail eventually.


> The main difference that passenger traffic in Russia is much higher than Polish ones. The population of Moscow agglomeration in 2.5 times less than whole population of Poland. That's why such rare and unusual incidents can lead to big problem for transportation of people. But you, guys, will always try to represent such unusual cases as ordinary day for Russian passengers, isn't it.


Traffic jams and crowds during Warsaw busy hours are terrible. Sometimes I have to pass one tram or metro train in the morning. First metro line and tram lines were partly closed during summer holidays because of the construction of the second metro line. The same case was with the suburban rails on the diametric rail route due to renovation works. Some trains were moved to long distance rails, some were suspended and I didn't see anything like that. It wouldn't be possible because employees would be scarred about their jobs.


----------



## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

outage said:


> You love soviet technology - still producing Ziu clones, RVZ clones (even on prestige routes from Moscow to Airports) and KTM clones
> 
> In Serbia rail is damaged by war and lack of money.


Em, you realise that abovementioned train are build by Russian-Swiss partnership?


----------



## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

Petr said:


> Workers would stop this people, otherwise if something had happened to them, they would had lost their jobs and had ended up in jail eventually.


I disagree. How many people works at ordinary railway platform in Russia? I think no more than 10. How can they control and have deal with such crowd? I can repeat again - in such situation, bigger delays can lead to the similar overcrowding at other routes (not only at the route Moscow-Khimki).

Honestly, I don't know who must take responsibility in the case of accidents with such passengers. But, in my opinion, these people are not kids and they were must to realize that such trips are illegal and very risky. That's why they should to take responsibility for their illegal actions. If something serious will happen with them during such trips, they must blame only themselves. As I wrote, it's better for me to wait some hours or to use alternative kind of transport (bus routes) in order to avoid such extremal riding.



Petr said:


> Traffic jams and crowds during Warsaw busy hours are terrible. Sometimes I have to pass one tram or metro train in the morning. First metro line and tram lines were partly closed during summer holidays because of the construction of the second metro line. The same case was with the suburban rails on the diametric rail route due to renovation works. Some trains were moved to long distance rails, some were suspended and I didn't see anything like that. It wouldn't be possible because employees would be scarred about their jobs.


That's what I talking about. As I wrote, Moscow is one of the largest megapolices in the world (and largest in Europe) while Warsaw is quite provincial city according to the world standards (not speaking about other Polish cities). In provincial cities, you can to cancel some trains and routes without serious effects for passengers. In world megapolices, any delay can lead to the such overcrowding in the trains. You couldn't see it in Poland because this city is less-scaled comparing with Moscow. 

As I already wrote, such case attracted so much attention in Russian mass-media and Internet because it's very unusual to see such situation, even in Moscow. Although problem of overcrowding in public transport is actual for Moscow, but such extreme riding can be caused only by something unusual.


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## Petr (May 8, 2004)

^^
In Poland it's not difficult to control people. It's enough if train operator says he won't move train from the station, if people won't get of the copling


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## outage (Jun 22, 2013)

AlekseyVT said:


> That's what I talking about. As I wrote, Moscow is one of the largest megapolices in the world (and largest in Europe) while Warsaw is quite provincial city according to the world standards (not speaking about other Polish cities). In provincial cities, you can to cancel some trains and routes without serious effects for passengers. In world megapolices, any delay can lead to the such overcrowding in the trains. You couldn't see it in Poland because this city is less-scaled comparing with Moscow.
> 
> As I already wrote, such case attracted so much attention in Russian mass-media and Internet because it's very unusual to see such situation, even in Moscow. Although problem of overcrowding in public transport is actual for Moscow, but such extreme riding can be caused only by something unusual.


Normal day in Moscow at Baumanska station. It is very hard to get into station building.









Normal day in Moscow - impossible to drive anywhere.









In Russia you are living in a myth that every your problem is caused by that Russia is big, Moscow is big and so on. I was in Shanghai which is bigger than Moscow and there were no such traffic jams, no such crowd in metro, no people outside trains. I was also in Paris and did noticed such actions... but in Moscow everything connected to transport is disaster because You lack maintenance, don't care about law and rules and everything is sloppy.


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## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

Petr said:


> ^^
> In Poland it's not difficult to control people. It's enough if train operator says he won't move train from the station, if people won't get of the copling


Are you able to read at English?



AlekseyVT said:


> I can repeat again - in such situation, bigger delays can lead to the similar overcrowding at other routes (not only at the route Moscow-Khimki).


----------



## Petr (May 8, 2004)

^^
It wouldn't take long because majority of the people would discipline those few undisciplined. You are the one who must understand, that in Poland no matter of the other condition train with people on the couplings wouldn't move.
Besides in Warsaw inconvenient renovations and construction works are planned for summer holidays and weekends.


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## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

^^^ Don't expect from Russia the same standards that are in EU.


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## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

outage said:


> Normal day in Moscow at Baumanska station. It is very hard to get into station building.


Well, Baumanskaya is one of rare examples in Moscow Metro. Let me to inform that this station was opened in January 1944 (in conditions of wartime). At that moment, there was no such number of offices and university buildings as in our days. That's why passenger traffic at this station is higher than it was planned in 1940s.

The construction of second exit from this station would greatly help problem with organization of passenger flow. This idea discussed at least during last 25 years. Unfortunately, this year Moscow authorities decided to postpone this project in order to spent money for extension of Metro network. So, now I hope that future Third Interchange Contour will help to solve problem of overcrowding of eastern radius of the Line 3.



outage said:


> In Russia you are living in a myth that every your problem is caused by that Russia is big, Moscow is big and so on. I was in Shanghai which is bigger than Moscow and there were no such traffic jams, no such crowd in metro, no people outside trains. I was also in Paris and did noticed such actions... but in Moscow everything connected to transport is disaster because You lack maintenance, don't care about law and rules and everything is sloppy.


The large population of Moscow is one of reasons for above-mentioned problems, and you can't ignore it. The other reason is high centralization of Moscow: majority of people are live at outskirts or suburbs and rides to work in the centre (historical core of city). 

If you speak about roads - most of them were built in Soviet times when only few families could have personal cars. Soviet planners couldn't predict that number of cars in Moscow will greatly increase in 1990s and 2000s. 

As I wrote - problem of overcrowding in public transport is actual for Moscow. That's why new authorities spend a lot of money for construction of new Metro and railway lines, creation of lines for public transport, etc. Also, there exist plans for de-centralization of Moscow and creation of workplaces at the outskirts.


----------



## warden987 (Jul 6, 2009)

Petr said:


> ^^
> In Poland it's not difficult to control people. It's enough if train operator says he won't move train from the station, if people won't get of the copling


But c'mon, you perfectly understand what Alexey means and such example with people clingling outside is probably the only one occurence in the whole of Russia ( kids and hazard seekers who ride on roofs on purpose and then film it excluded). I checked out videos from youtube from Poland railways and the trains are almost always empty or near empty. Of course, under such circumstances you will never find it in Poland).


----------



## warden987 (Jul 6, 2009)

markfos said:


> ^^^ Don't expect from Russia the same standards that are in EU.


The rail infrastructure in Russia is in a much better shape than in Poland.


----------



## petersgriff (Jun 2, 2011)

*AlekseyVT*, stop communicating with these users. They don't want constructive discussion. Your arguments are not necessary to them, they don't understand it.


----------



## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

warden987 said:


> The rail infrastructure in Russia is in a much better shape than in Poland.


I doubt since we invest bilions euros each year and all major routes are being renovated including rail stations.


----------



## Petr (May 8, 2004)

warden987 said:


> But c'mon, you perfectly understand what Alexey means and such example with people clingling outside is probably the only one occurence in the whole of Russia ( kids and hazard seekers who ride on roofs on purpose and then film it excluded). I checked out videos from youtube from Poland railways and the trains are almost always empty or near empty. Of course, under such circumstances you will never find it in Poland).


In Poland railway stuff would never let that train go, if they had been aware of the people outside on the train.
I don't know, which videos have You watched, but in Warsaw agglomeration suburban trains, excluding summer holidays period, are overcrowded durig rush hours.


----------



## outage (Jun 22, 2013)

AlekseyVT said:


> Well, Baumanskaya is one of rare examples in Moscow Metro.


Stop kidding me. I ve seen similar situation on many more subway stations. 



AlekseyVT said:


> The large population of Moscow is one of reasons for above-mentioned problems, and you can't ignore it.


Why I did not encounter such problems in Shanghai or Paris? Too small cities 
Don't feed me with your myths.



AlekseyVT said:


> The other reason is high centralization of Moscow: majority of people are live at outskirts or suburbs and rides to work in the centre (historical core of city).


I worked outside trolley linie B and suffered also.



AlekseyVT said:


> If you speak about roads - most of them were built in Soviet times when only few families could have personal cars. Soviet planners couldn't predict that number of cars in Moscow will greatly increase in 1990s and 2000s.


And that is why these roads have six lanes )) Nice joke.



AlekseyVT said:


> As I wrote - problem of overcrowding in public transport is actual for Moscow. That's why new authorities spend a lot of money for construction of new Metro and railway lines, creation of lines for public transport, etc. Also, there exist plans for de-centralization of Moscow and creation of workplaces at the outskirts.


But you cannot even build separated fast tram line - which is cheaper than metro and can fixes more problems. For example like route "Metro - Ilitscha - Novogireyevo". Because it is a part of your behaviour - buy expensive, huge and not economic things at all - thats why you prefer expensive Bombardier than Pesa stucking in trafic jams and going on damaged tracks.


----------



## warden987 (Jul 6, 2009)

markfos said:


> I doubt since we invest bilions euros each year and all major routes are being renovated including rail stations.



As if in Russia everything is frozen in time.... Probably the railroad infrastructure is developping in Poland for the better ( the Euro 2012 was also an incentive for this), but yet 2-5 years ago Polish railways were a very sorry sight.


----------



## markfos (Sep 14, 2012)

Depends where, as I said, all major routes are being renovated, the major investment is upgrading E65 route (for HST )from Gdańsk to Kraków via Warsaw. Poland bought 20 Pendolinos trains for this route and it will be in operational from the end of 2014.


----------



## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

outage said:


> Stop kidding me. I ve seen similar situation on many more subway stations.


There are only few Moscow Metro stations with bigger daily passenger traffic. However, almost all these stations were built with two vestibules and few entrances. That's why there are no such lines of passengers near entrance.

And yes, Moscow Metro is one of the busiest subway systems in the world. Its passenger traffic is almost the same like at Metros at major Asian megapolices - Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing and Shanghai. However, we don't need to hire special people (pushers) in order to push passengers into trains.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusher_(railway_station_attendant)

So, in 2050, when there will be opened Metro in Belgrade and Warsaw Metro will consist at least of 5 lines, you will have possibility to lecture us about Metro operation.









Metro



outage said:


> Why I did not encounter such problems in Shanghai or Paris? Too small cities
> Don't feed me with your myths.
> 
> I worked outside trolley linie B and suffered also.


Paris is smaller than in Moscow, it's not so centralized and it was almost totally rebuilt in 1870s. Unfortunately, I never was been in China. However, I read that there was similar large-scale renovation of city since 1990s. Don't forget that China has rapidly growing economy while Russians suffered from large-scale financial crisis just 15 years ago.



outage said:


> But you cannot even build separated fast tram line - which is cheaper than metro and can fixes more problems. For example like route "Metro - Ilitscha - Novogireyevo". Because it is a part of your behaviour - buy expensive, huge and not economic things at all - thats why you prefer expensive Bombardier than Pesa stucking in trafic jams and going on damaged tracks.


Tram will be never able to replace Metro. It can be major kind of transport in such provincial towns like Sopot or Gdansk, but not in Moscow. That's why there are no effective urban tram systems in such megapolices like London, Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing, Shanghai, etc. Are they undeveloped cities? If I not mistaken, Moscow is the largest world city that have extensive tram network.

Why need to spend much money on less-effective things? And, yes, this is part of your behaviour - to make priority on fast and more effective kinds of transport.

However, even with such large-scale programm of Metro construction, Moscow authorities are spend remaining money on buying of new modern rolling stock and renovation of existing tram infrastructure. However, the funding of Moscow Tram will never be PRIORITY task.


----------



## Petr (May 8, 2004)

warden987 said:


> As if in Russia everything is frozen in time.... Probably the railroad infrastructure is developping in Poland for the better ( the Euro 2012 was also an incentive for this), but yet 2-5 years ago Polish railways were a very sorry sight.


Indeed decade ago Polish railways were in a terrible shape, completely neglected. But after our EU acces rails are gradually upgraded, and railway stock is modernized. Of course first modernized are main lines and main agglomerational networks. After 2 decades of negligence there's still huge work to do, but changes are already well visible in all big agglomerations. Polish rolling stock manufacturers, Pesa and Newag, have a bright future.


AlekseyVT said:


> So, in 2050, when there will be opened Metro in Belgrade and Warsaw Metro will consist at least of 5 lines, you will have possibility to lecture us about Metro operation.


Who is teaching You about metro opperation? And what does it have in common with Warsaw?


----------



## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Boys, atop arguing like this, please.


----------



## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

Petr said:


> Who is teaching You about metro opperation? And what does it have in common with Warsaw?


I just explained that priority in the development of public transport is determined by its size and population. In provincial towns, surface transport plays higher role than subway system. However, in large cities it can't be real alternative for Metro. That's why it not correct to compare organization and work of different kinds of transport in large and provincial cities. Different scales - different priorities.

Why I should to explain such simple things?


----------



## Petr (May 8, 2004)

^^
Warsaw doesn't belon to cities in which trams can fully substitute metro and commuter rail, so I don't see the point.


----------



## outage (Jun 22, 2013)

AlekseyVT said:


> So, in 2050, when there will be opened Metro in Belgrade and Warsaw Metro will consist at least of 5 lines, you will have possibility to lecture us about Metro operation.


But now Moscow transport govermenment can go to Warsaw to see what means fast tram on separated tracks. 




AlekseyVT said:


> Paris is smaller than in Moscow, it's not so centralized and it was almost totally rebuilt in 1870s.


According to wiki:
Paris aglomeration: 12 milions of people
Moscow: 11 milions of people
smaller ))
Please not that Paris has different administration division - which means that city Paris is something like centre only.

You forgot that Moscow was destroyed during second world war and after that socreal built a very wide streets "Prospects"



AlekseyVT said:


> Unfortunately, I never was been in China. However, I read that there was similar large-scale renovation of city since 1990s. Don't forget that China has rapidly growing economy while Russians suffered from large-scale financial crisis just 15 years ago.


You have always excuse for your mess. Too big, too poor, too centralized etc. Main problem is Moscow that you don't have any reliable public transport service over the ground like fast tram which. 



AlekseyVT said:


> Tram will be never able to replace Metro.


So that is the reason why Moscow is deep forest in transportation. You mean to replace and invent one thing for everything (metro). You don't need metro everywhere. There is a lot of directions that needs something cheaper than metro. Transport is a system where different tractions like buses, trolleys and trams and metro completes each other. Focusing on Metro is main reason of inefficiency of Moscow transit system.



AlekseyVT said:


> It can be major kind of transport in such provincial towns like Sopot or Gdansk, but not in Moscow. That's why there are no effective urban tram systems in such megapolices like London, Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing, Shanghai, etc. Are they undeveloped cities? If I not mistaken, Moscow is the largest world city that have extensive tram network.


But you trams have only disadvanges of normal trams. No advantages like capacity (for example 58 meters long Combino in Budapest), no advantages like easy accessible from street level (especially for disabled people and mothers with wheelchairs), nothing but old KTM with high floor, not separated damaged trams.



AlekseyVT said:


> Why need to spend much money on less-effective things? And, yes, this is part of your behaviour - to make priority on fast and more effective kinds of transport.


That is the reason why Paris decided to build their tram network again. You are living in wild east and you don't even know how trams can operate. Your trams have nothing to do like systems in France or Germany or even Budapest. For example in Budapest there is 60 meters long combinos which is riding every 2 minutes. That means capacity of 12000 people per hour. For example Serie 81 in every 4 minutes means 16 000 persons per hour. Comparable? Yes. I think there is a lot of corridors in Moscow with demands of tram. If build metro costs 156 mln eur per kilometre and tram costs 1,8 milions of euro per kilometre. And instead one kilometer of metro you can build almost 80km of trams on separated tracks. Thats why Paris on suburbs builds trams:








For me reliable tram will be enough in Moscow. I everyday go to work from Sokolniki - Taganskaya and if tram 50 will be reliable I would never use metro.



AlekseyVT said:


> However, even with such large-scale programm of Metro construction, Moscow authorities are spend remaining money on buying of new modern rolling stock and renovation of existing tram infrastructure. However, the funding of Moscow Tram will never be PRIORITY task.


And that is the reason why you will be in traffic jams forever. You spend money for very expensive project (which is metro). Instead this you would build a hundreds of kilometers of fast trams which have similar capacity and will provide alternative for metro, trolleys and buses and of course cars. 
You wouldn't afford to extend your metro lines to avoid total stuck in traffic jams. It is too expensive. Apply for visa to European Union and check it yourself.


----------



## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Paris is a village in terms of transport and people traffic in comparison with Moscow. The capital of Russia is 20 times bigger than Paris, it is larger than greater Paris, and only trams with a capacity of 12K passengers is not a solution.

Please stop saying "wild east" or I reserve the right to complain about it.

I agree with you that tram must be given a certain priority in Moscow bit it shouldn't be the only one.

Don't forget as well the Russian climate and snowfalls that make tram lines sick.


----------



## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

outage said:


> But now Moscow transport govermenment can go to Warsaw to see what means fast tram on separated tracks.


I can repeat again - unlike Warsaw, we have 12 Metro lines, not 1 (and there will be more Metro lines in nearest future). Moscow has bigger area and larger population. There is no such necessary to build lines of fast tram as replacement for Metro.



outage said:


> According to wiki:
> Paris aglomeration: 12 milions of people
> Moscow: 11 milions of people
> smaller ))
> Please not that Paris has different administration division - which means that city Paris is something like centre only.


I can't understand why you decide to compare Paris agglomeration with city of Moscow. First of all, population of Moscow (within its current borders) is 12 million people, not 11 million. First of all, population of Moscow agglomeration is estimates in 15-16 mln. people. You can see at this video with overcrowded suburban train that many people who live in nearest city of Khimki (as well as in neighboring cities/towns) are coming in Moscow for work. Also, don't forget that many people who lives or work in Moscow don't have permanent registration and don't included into official statistics.



outage said:


> You forgot that Moscow was destroyed during second world war and after that socreal built a very wide streets "Prospects"


It's false. Moscow almost was not damaged as result of Nazi air raids (thanks to effective system of masking of buildings and anti-air defense). Of course, some houses were really destroyed (none of these houses had strategic purpose), but this scale is not comparable with level of destruction of such cities like Warsaw, Kiev, Dresden, Berlin, etc.

And yes - many magistral streets were reconstructed and widened since 1930s. However, there remained many narrow street in the centre of city.



outage said:


> You have always excuse for your mess. Too big, too poor, too centralized etc.


Well - if you want to improve problem situation, you should clearly understand reasons of this problem, isn't it?



outage said:


> Main problem is Moscow that you don't have any reliable public transport service over the ground like fast tram which.
> 
> So that is the reason why Moscow is deep forest in transportation. You mean to replace and invent one thing for everything (metro). You don't need metro everywhere. There is a lot of directions that needs something cheaper than metro. Transport is a system where different tractions like buses, trolleys and trams and metro completes each other. Focusing on Metro is main reason of inefficiency of Moscow transit system.


Finally, I agree with you at some points :cheers:



outage said:


> But you trams have only disadvanges of normal trams. No advantages like capacity (for example 58 meters long Combino in Budapest), no advantages like easy accessible from street level (especially for disabled people and mothers with wheelchairs), nothing but old KTM with high floor, not separated damaged trams.


That's right. That's why we have plans to replace current rolling stock with low-floor or partly-LW tramcars. Some tram stops were reconstructed for better accessibility.



outage said:


> That is the reason why Paris decided to build their tram network again. You are living in wild east and you don't even know how trams can operate.


I can repeat again - If I not mistaken, Moscow is the largest world city that have extensive tram network. You can find that many world megapolices that has longest and busiest Metro systems, refused from urban tram network many years ago.

*Metro systems by annual passenger rides:*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_systems_by_annual_passenger_rides

*Metro systems by length:*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_rail_systems_by_length

You can notice that vast majority of these cities has no effective urban tram network - London, Mexico, New York, São Paulo, Beijing, Shanghai, Tokyo, Seoul, etc. Are they represent "Wild East" for you?

In contrast, Moscow authorities have plans for development of tram network - but only on secondary principle. That's why there will no such fast changes in Moscow than in not-large cities where surface transport plays significant role.



outage said:


> Your trams have nothing to do like systems in France or Germany or even Budapest. For example in Budapest there is 60 meters long combinos which is riding every 2 minutes. That means capacity of 12000 people per hour. For example Serie 81 in every 4 minutes means 16 000 persons per hour. Comparable? Yes. I think there is a lot of corridors in Moscow with demands of tram. If build metro costs 156 mln eur per kilometre and tram costs 1,8 milions of euro per kilometre. And instead one kilometer of metro you can build almost 80km of trams on separated tracks. Thats why Paris on suburbs builds trams:
> 
> For me reliable tram will be enough in Moscow. I everyday go to work from Sokolniki - Taganskaya and if tram 50 will be reliable I would never use metro.
> 
> ...


But despite of this, city authorities in Budapest, Prague, Warsaw and Sofia continuing to build Metro lines. It's clear that Metro have bigger potential for transportation. And even 10 km of Metro lines can be much more useful than 40 km of tramlines.


----------



## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

This summer Czech specialists presented interesting table during transport conference in Novosibirsk.

Prague Metro: 3 lines, *length of Metro lines - 59.4 km,* average speed - 35.65 km/h, *annual ridership - 530.493 million.*
Prague Tram: 33 lines, *total route length - 539.8 km,* average speed - 18.57 km/h, *annual ridership - 312.898 million.*



hungar said:


> Они по-нерусски докладывали.
> Только чешский специалист по-русски говорил вот про это:
> 
> структура общественного транспорта Праги
> ...


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Outage, you've mentioned shanghai above. Well, Shanghai goes definitely for metro which is more of Moscow type - large trains and large distances. Tram is now found only in Zhangjiang district of Pudong, only one line.

There will be one more line in Songjiang. It's almost 45 km from the downtown.

And please, don't compare Paris to Moscow, its ridiculous. I live in Moscow and I lived in Paris for a year and in total I've been there 15 times. They are not comparable.

Paris Suburbs are just villages while Moscow outskirts are often as dense as La Defense itself.


----------



## semetria (Oct 12, 2010)

In my opinion the purpose of this thread is not to defend the Moscow transportation system. So we do not need to explain to our Polish and Serbian friends why this or that picture is hanging out on the internet. If they are so eager to share their belief that Moscow railway or metro is crappy compared to theirs - this is enough of a reason to leave their uninteresting posts in peace. If too much trolling is happening it is the responsibility of the moderator to show our friends the proper ways of conduct.


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## ComboD (Apr 17, 2012)

New York doesn’t have trams. I’m surprised that Moscow has got them. Maybe building a tram line is cheaper than a metro line, but trams are generally painfully slow. Trams have to slow down in curves and at intersections, stop at red lights. Tram is fine if you want a short ride. To traverse a big city in a tram will take you all the time you have and then some. 
As for the length of the trams, Moscow probably doesn’t have the infrastructure, like long platforms, to accommodate long trams. And they probably can’t extend existing platforms either due to space limitations. Could some Moscow resident confirm this?


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Actually all stops already accept at least 30 m long trams, and further extending platforms (to reasonable length like 45-50 m, at least) isn't a problem on most routes.
What really drag tram down - years of neglect under misconception of tram being an outdated transport, that should be dismantled in a favor of extra traffic lane, and painfully slow boarding via first door only turnstile (even in 30 m long articulated trams...), resulting in timetables with hell a lot of padding (well, the latter are sadly true about all surface transit in Moscow).

Also, you must understand, that soviet-style subway are really fast due to fact it's designed with rather long distances between stations, but the cost of such speed - it's useless for a reasonable share of people if there is no surface transit to get people to/from metro. You should think about the Moscow Metro as analogue of NY express lines, and of Moscow tram* - like an analogue of all-stop NY services.

_________________
*well, not just tram, and not every tram route... Trunk surface routes would be more correct analogue.


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

That's Tatra tram. Tatta is an Indian auto-manufacturer.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

XAN_ said:


> That's Tatra tram. Tatta is an Indian auto-manufacturer.


Yes, thanks


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

XAN_ said:


> That's Tatra tram. Tatta is an Indian auto-manufacturer.


The Indian car maker is called Tata, with 1 T.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

dimlys1994 said:


> How about that - Tatra, Alstom and Pesa trams in one place, taken from here:


Alstom looks very cheap in comparison with Pesa on this picture.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

On the occasion of the 115-year anniversary of Moscow tram, there was arranged a small exhibition of children's drawings.




























Read more: http://ncd2010.livejournal.com/91051.html

28.04.2014.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

New rules for carrying bikes on buses, trolleybuses and trams.




14 .05. 2014.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

A new partly low floor tram made in St Petersburg.



















17 .05. 2014.


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

It isn't new (it doesn't mean that it's a bad tram, though)
The plant that produced them already closed down and demolished.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

For me everything that is less than 5 years old is somewhat new.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

To go online through wi-fi access on BRT # 902 you have to do this now:



31.05.2014.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

"three easy steps" ! LOL.

Mosgortrans is not lacking a sense of humor.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

New PESA trams are now on service, they are riding on route #6 between Sokol metro station and Bratsevo, taken from here:


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## BatonMedved (Jul 9, 2009)

The color scheme is AWFUL. Even original is more relevant to Moscow, just because it's red. Until they want to remind citizens of city outskirts depression of course.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

I don't find it awful. When I saw it in person yesterday, it looked smarter than old red Tatras' livery.

Outskirt depressive look is a good expression to describe St Petersburg outskirts, not those of Moscow, indeed.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Finally, I've managed to write a short review of the new trams.



Read more (in Russian though): http://ncd2010.livejournal.com/94264.html


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

Video inside of new Polish tram, taken by Youtube user trolleway:


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## mavis_dark (May 9, 2009)

_Night City Dream_ said:


> Outskirt depressive look is a good expression to describe St Petersburg outskirts, not those of Moscow, indeed.


Very true! As a person who lived in one of those, I can attest to that
Have yet to see the outskirts of Moscow, but having hard time believing that they are more pleasant than in Peter


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## DimonS (Jun 18, 2011)

Moscow buys 100 of Mercedes-Benz Conecto LF buses, they should arrive at the end of the year. Now a demonstrator is being tested in Moscow.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Bi-artuclated Tatra, the only one in Moscow.



19 .06. 2014.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Rail line to St Petersburg, reconstruction within Moscow city and a bit far.







19 .06. 2014.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

FabriFlorence said:


> I agree. I think that Moscow should not follow the bad example of the western cities that removed their trolleybuses network, because it could be a big error.
> 
> Many people think that the trolleybuses are old and outdated. This is not true. A modern trolleybus is ecological, noiseless and more comfortable than a bus. Nothing is more ecologically friendly than a trolleybus!


It is a commonly repeated mistake. The trolleybus as a means of public transport combines the disadvantages of the bus and the tram.

The tram is the most sustainable transport, and Moscow should develop this instead of the trolleybus which is obsolete and outdated. I'm talking not about trolleybuses but the trolleybus as the kind of transport.


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## 00Zy99 (Mar 4, 2013)

_Night City Dream_ said:


> It is a commonly repeated mistake. The trolleybus as a means of public transport combines the disadvantages of the bus and the tram.
> 
> The tram is the most sustainable transport, and Moscow should develop this instead of the trolleybus which is obsolete and outdated. I'm talking not about trolleybuses but the trolleybus as the kind of transport.


There are very few, if any, places where it makes sense to construct a new trolleybus route (a minor extension of an existing route is one of them). However, destroying existing infrastructure is wasteful and pointless. If you have something, make use of it.


----------



## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)




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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/urban/single-view/view/moscow-to-order-300-trams.html
> 
> *Moscow to order 300 trams*
> 08 Aug 2016
> ...


----------



## Zaz965 (Jan 24, 2015)

please, somebody post some render about these 300 trams :cheers:


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

^^I guess that tram renders will appear after the tender


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/europe/single-view/view/moscow-orders-300-trams.html
> 
> *Moscow orders 300 trams*
> 26 Sep 2016
> ...


----------



## dars-dm (Oct 13, 2007)

A new transport scheme for central Moscow, called Magistral, was launched today. With the advent of a new contraflow bus lane on Teatralny proezd, some routes have been reorganized and renumbered m1-m10.


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## Augusto (Mar 3, 2005)

00Zy99 said:


> There are very few, if any, places where it makes sense to construct a new trolleybus route (a minor extension of an existing route is one of them). However, destroying existing infrastructure is wasteful and pointless. If you have something, make use of it.


What about Quito, Merida, Ryad, Tehran?


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...okstrot-tram-deliveries-to-moscow-resume.html
> 
> *Fokstrot tram deliveries to Moscow resume*
> 27 Oct 2016
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

Construction began on tram extension in Biryulyovo:
http://transphoto.ru/photo/980635/


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## Aokromes (Jan 5, 2005)

dimlys1994 said:


> Construction began on tram extension in Biryulyovo:


There is any link to the street projects i have seen on google maps/yandex on that area?


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## BadHatter (Dec 9, 2014)

Yes, elevatornaya ulitsa is being extended over the railway into chertanovo


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## Aokromes (Jan 5, 2005)

BadHatter said:


> Yes, elevatornaya ulitsa is being extended over the railway into chertanovo


Yes, i have seen that, that's why i ask for maps of project, etc  on yandex they call it projected drive 5108, 6630, 6631.

https://www.google.es/maps/place/BI...0x2888157e4720878!8m2!3d55.5957846!4d37.65665
https://yandex.com/maps/213/moscow/...D0%BA%D0%B2%D0%B0&ll=37.649160,55.600494&z=16


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Krzhizhanovskogo street. Who can easily pronounce the name? 












12 .01. 2017.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

Testing began on new electrobuses:


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## Petr (May 8, 2004)

_Night City Dream_ said:


> Krzhizhanovskogo street. Who can easily pronounce the name?


every Pole


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Buses are sometimes nice generators of traffic jams!



26 .01. 2017.

Забавно было, когда водитель сего автобуса заглядывал в кузов Газели.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

Inside of Tushinskyi Tunnel under Moscow Canal, near Spartak's new stadium. Tunnel was opened on 1937, while trams began running there since 1944:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Тушинский_тоннель

This one was taken in 2010:
http://transphoto.ru/photo/361082/










And this one - in 2014:
http://transphoto.ru/photo/741500/


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## Ghostpoet (Nov 29, 2016)

Hello all!
Vityaz M trams are already in use in Moscow or not? AFAIK, first two were delivered in early February...

Ghostpoet


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

ЛиАЗ-5292.22 № 08150.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

ЛиАЗ-5292.22 № 040347


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

ЛиАЗ-5292.22 № 040175


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## Aokromes (Jan 5, 2005)

041075 
Btw, what's higher bus number on moscow?


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## Gulliver1.93m (Jul 22, 2016)

Aokromes said:


> 041075
> Btw, what's higher bus number on moscow?


Here is list of all Moscow buses:
http://fotobus.msk.ru/list.php?loid=1&st=29500

#171499 is the highest bus number.









http://fotobus.msk.ru/vehicle/1101676/#n1361144


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## FabriFlorence (Sep 29, 2004)

^^ How many lines of Bus, Trolleybus and Trams there are in Moscow?


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## Gulliver1.93m (Jul 22, 2016)

FabriFlorence said:


> ^^ How many lines of Bus,


About 700 bus routes, 6538 passenger buses, 6251 of which is in regular operation.

Full list of models:
http://fotobus.msk.ru/show.php?loid=1



FabriFlorence said:


> Trolleybus


69 trolleybus routes, 1302 passenger trolleybuses, 1198 of which is in regular operation.

Full list of models:
http://transphoto.ru/show.php?t=2&cid=1



FabriFlorence said:


> ...and Trams there are in Moscow?


47 tram routes, 847 passenger tramcars, 798 of which is in regular operation.

Full list of models:
http://transphoto.ru/show.php?t=1&cid=1


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

ЛиАЗ-4292 № 08277


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

ЛиАЗ-5292.22 на 902-м маршруте.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)




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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

A private ЛиАЗ-5292.22


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

Taken from Russian transport thread:



ILCOMEBACK said:


> In Moscow (Skolkovo ) ended testing of passenger cars ( 8-9 passengers) with no driver . Plant for the production of such autorobots built in 100 km from Moscow . At the beginning of 2018 the first vans will be delivered to customers in Moscow ,Kazan,Sochi and United Arab Emirates . The plant is designed to produce 600 units per year with further expansion up to 1,500 PCs per year . См рисунок ниже


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

Short tram extension is now underway from current tram line 9 terminus next to Belorusskaya metro station towards Tverskaya Zastava Square near Belorusskyi railway terminus:
https://medium.com/@trolleway/продление-трамвая-на-белорусскую-5c73b2d2ac5
http://transphoto.ru/photo/1034662/


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## ode of bund (Dec 19, 2005)

> 69 trolleybus routes, 1302 passenger trolleybuses, 1198 of which is in regular operation


Down to only 69 trolley-bus routes? Moscow used to have 85 trolley routes.


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## Gulliver1.93m (Jul 22, 2016)

ode of bund said:


> Down to only 69 trolley-bus routes? Moscow used to have 85 trolley routes.


Few trolleybus routes were cancelled because just in recent years Mayor of Moscow decided to dismantle trolleybus network in the city center and to replace it with bus routes. Those passenger trolleybuses which previously ran in the city center are currently operates at other routes for now (as a result, the time intervals between trolleybuses were shortened at these routes). Without trolleybus wires, central streets and squares become looks much more beatiful.


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## 00Zy99 (Mar 4, 2013)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

when will Moscow yield the title of largest trolleybus system to Minsk?

Within the next 2 years would be my guess.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

Tram passes under railway tracks near Kurskyi railway station:
http://transphoto.ru/photo/1034458/


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

More on Belorusskaya railway station tram extension:
http://transphoto.ru/photo/1035763/
http://transphoto.ru/photo/1035749/


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

More on Belorusskaya railway station tram extension:
http://transphoto.ru/photo/1036336/
http://transphoto.ru/photo/1036335/


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## FabriFlorence (Sep 29, 2004)

The new Moscow trams are incredibly beautiful!


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Finally managed to get on an electric bus yesterday. Quite liked it.

Now I hate trolleybuses even more and wish they disappeared in Moscow ASAP.





6 .02. 2019.


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## BHT (Jan 27, 2017)

_Night City Dream_ said:


> Now I hate trolleybuses even more and wish they disappeared in Moscow ASAP.


 Please, no. In Moscow (like in whole Russia), there's extremely big lobby for electric buses and the most common argument used by people like Sobyanin is, that trolleybuses are outdated and uncomfortable type of trasnport. And I'm really suprised how many Russians believe this propaganda.

Yes, current Moscow trolleybuses (or that, what remained of them) aren't attractive for passengers. But it's a problem of city hall/Mosgortrans that even in 2012, they were still buying Ziu-682 instead of normal, modern vehicles. Just check trolleybus systems in Europe to understand how efficent it is.

In your picture, there's electric bus prodeced by KAMAZ. So why the same model, but in trolleybus version, should be worse?












In normal cities, electric buses are being introduced to improve city's enviroment and to replace diesel (or gas) buses. But in Moscow, they replace trolleybus lines and so highly worsen ecology. It's time to open eyes and get understood, that whole this project is just way how to, we can say, improve budget of selected companies and officials.

On this topic, Varlamov has written several articles: https://varlamov.ru/3082160.html

So the conclusion - the project of Moscow electric buses is total fiasco and hopefully, people there will realize soon that instead of real public transport improvement, this is just a waste of a city budget, which Moscow can't afford.


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## FabriFlorence (Sep 29, 2004)

BHT said:


> Please, no. In Moscow (like in whole Russia), there's extremely big lobby for electric buses and the most common argument used by people like Sobyanin is, that trolleybuses are outdated and uncomfortable type of trasnport. And I'm really suprised how many Russians believe this propaganda.
> ...
> In normal cities, electric buses are being introduced to improve city's enviroment and to replace diesel (or gas) buses. But in Moscow, they replace trolleybus lines and so highly worsen ecology. It's time to open eyes and get understood, that whole this project is just way how to, we can say, improve budget of selected companies and officials.


I completely agree. The only advantage of an electric bus, compared with a trolleybus, is aesthetic because it doesn't need wires. On the other hand, electric buses have the problem of autonomy (that, of course, trolleybuses don't have) that force them to long stops to recharge their batteries.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

2019.02.09 - permanent cancellation of trolleybus #12

https://www.mos.ru/news/item/50945073/


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## Surel (May 5, 2010)

FabriFlorence said:


> I completely agree. The only advantage of an electric bus, compared with a trolleybus, is aesthetic because it doesn't need wires. On the other hand, electric buses have the problem of autonomy (that, of course, trolleybuses don't have) that force them to long stops to recharge their batteries.


In fact, the electric buses can be equipped with a catenary poles if only to allow for convenient charging. Its the best combination in fact. You are able to effectively create new lines utilizing the electric buses with poles there were no trolleybus could go and you are utilizing the old infrastructure to allow for charging of the batteries. Perfect combination if you ask me.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Temporary bus line to serve part of metro line 1 that is closed due to connecting the new section to the existing one, in the south-west of Moscow,











3 .03. 2019.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Lesnaya street.



8 .03. 2019.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Liaz-4292.



8 .03. 2019.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

They are threesome:





17 .03. 2019.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

New line for electric buses - 76



4 .04. 2019.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

Old model, KTM-19. In several years' time they will disappear from Moscow stress.



4 .04. 2019.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

One of the best bus designs in the world.



26 .06. 2019.


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## BHT (Jan 27, 2017)

It was announced that operation of trolleybuses on all remaining routes will be suspended until September of this year and all wires will be dismantled: https://moskvichmag.ru/gorod/k-sentyabryu-v-moskve-ne-ostanetsya-ni-odnogo-trollejbusnogo-marshruta/?fbclid=IwAR2qiUbLvqQgJo7ua0bgttfYYxeAFaBKtj7KtAUeTzOvEle68hp_KtyhbY8

Congratulations to Moscow on one of the stupidest decisions ever. The sad fact is there are still plenty of people who believe Sobyanin's lies that electric buses are more comfortable, modern, ecological or effective than standard trolleybuses. And beside that, Moscow simply can't afford buying hundreds of new electric buses just for this purpose (especially while there are still thousands of diesel buses in operation).

In just a few years, thanks to corrupted incompetent city representatives they achived to ruin the world's biggest trolleybus network. Good work! :wallbash:


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## Midnight Sun (Jun 14, 2017)

That's perfectly true. Sobyanin is an awful mayor.


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## FabriFlorence (Sep 29, 2004)

^^ Unluckily also in my country (Italy) many cities has dismantled their trolleybuses network because of a wrong idea of aesthetics and beauty. hno:


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

BHT said:


> It was announced that operation of trolleybuses on all remaining routes will be suspended until September of this year and all wires will be dismantled: https://moskvichmag.ru/gorod/k-sentyabryu-v-moskve-ne-ostanetsya-ni-odnogo-trollejbusnogo-marshruta/?fbclid=IwAR2qiUbLvqQgJo7ua0bgttfYYxeAFaBKtj7KtAUeTzOvEle68hp_KtyhbY8


I don't think "_suspended until September_" is what you meant to write - that sounds like trolleybuses will be reactivated in September. In fact, what's happening is the exact opposite.


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## BHT (Jan 27, 2017)

Woonsocket54 said:


> I don't think "_suspended until September_" is what you meant to write - that sounds like trolleybuses will be reactivated in September. In fact, what's happening is the exact opposite.


Yeah, it was meant that it will be fully suspended in September, operation of selected routes will end even earlier.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

As part of Moscow's elimination of trolleybuses, beginning 2020.02.01, trolleybus #24 will be replaced by bus.









https://transphoto.org/photo/1298207


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

As part of Moscow's elimination of trolleybuses, beginning 2020.02.15, trolleybus #66 was replaced by bus.









https://transphoto.org/photo/1303372/


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## Aokromes (Jan 5, 2005)

🏙 We launched two main routes near Moscow City: m31 to Krasnopresnenskaya metro station and m32 to Belorusskaya via Ulitsa 1905 Goda metro station. Moving around the Presnensky District will become much faster and easier.

When choosing routes, we took into account that:

🔹About 61% of scooter rides and 12% of taxi rides from the City are at stops on new routes
🔹more than 5 thousand people travel daily from the City to the stations of the Tagansko-Krasnopresnenskaya line. Now you can get to Ulitsa 1905 Goda by a direct frequent bus, and not go with two transfers on the metro.

We will release electric buses on the routes - for this we made a turning platform at the Testovskaya MCD station with 4 charges. They will run daily from 6:00 to 12:00. The interval is up to 10 minutes (2 times less than what City ground transport currently has).

More than 140 thousand people come to Moscow City every day, and 70% use public transport. Demand is only growing, and it is important to make passenger travel as comfortable as possible. 









Дептранс Москвы


🏙 Мы запустили два магистральных маршрута рядом с Москва-Сити: м31 до метро «Краснопресненская» и м32 до «Белорусской» через метро «Улица 1905 года». Передвигаться по Пресненскому району станет намного быстрее и проще. При выборе маршрутов мы учитывали, что: 🔹около 61% поездок на самокатах и...




t.me


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## Aokromes (Jan 5, 2005)

🚌Our express trains are 10 years old! Express routes run on dedicated lanes with a minimum number of stops. Everything so that you are never late.

Ten years ago, the first high-speed route No. 901 was launched in Moscow - every day it carries more than 12 thousand passengers from Zagorye to Taganskaya Square. Over the entire period of operation, express trains have been chosen by 350 million people, which is almost 2.5 times more than the population of Russia.

High-speed surface urban transport is an integral part of the life of a large metropolis. It is important for us that every passenger can quickly and reliably move around the city. Today, there are 15 express routes running in the city, which are used by 130 thousand people every day. Such transport is in great demand among passengers: since 2011, they have transported 350 million people, - Maxim Liksutov.

More about express trains - in cards☝🏻 









Дептранс Москвы


🚌Нашим экспрессам — 10 лет! Экспресс-маршруты ходят по выделенным полосам с минимальным числом остановок. Всё для того, чтобы вы никогда не опаздывали. Десять лет назад в Москве запустили первый скоростной маршрут №901 — каждый день он перевозит больше 12 тыс. пассажиров от Загорья до...




t.me


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Что за чушь собачья? По русски речь идёт про автобусы, а на английском переводится на поезда. 

What is this nonsense? The Russian article is about buses, but in English they're translated into trains.


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## coth (Oct 16, 2003)

Woonsocket54 said:


> Что за чушь собачья? По русски речь идёт про автобусы, а на английском переводится на поезда.
> 
> What is this nonsense? The Russian article is about buses, but in English they're translated into trains.


You mean at the end? It's actually doesn't say buses. It says expresses. So online translator presumes it's about train expresses.


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## Aokromes (Jan 5, 2005)

🚀 Made trips to Balashikha faster and more comfortable

🚉 Today a new platform was opened in Balashikha near Moscow and a new route to Moscow was launched.

⬆ more electric trains, the travel time of some of them decreased by 8 minutes;

☔ the platform has become longer and wider, equipped with awnings;

🤝 The new covered pedestrian bridge also performs a transit function, linking Sovetskaya and Ordzhonikidze Streets.

In total, over 12 km of continuous welded track were laid on the Reutovo - Balashikha section, 2 railway bridges were built. 









Телеграмма РЖД


🚀 Сделали поездки в Балашиху быстрее и комфортнее 🚉 Сегодня в подмосковной Балашихе открылась новая платформа, и запущено движение по новому пути до Москвы. ⬆️ Электричек стало больше, время в пути части из них сократилось на 8 минут; ☔️ платформа стала длиннее и шире, оборудована навесами...




t.me


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

The new platform at Balaskhikha railway station (suburban Moscow).


























Новую железнодорожную платформу открыли в Балашихе


Поезда в Москву начали курсировать по новому пути




www.tvc.ru


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## Aokromes (Jan 5, 2005)

🏅System "Antison" became a laureate of the Russian IT Stars award as the most significant innovative social project.

"Antison" observes drivers: scans their faces and the frequency of blinking. Then it transfers the data to the dispatchers. In this way, the system makes travel safer and more reliable, unnoticed by passengers. Today the system operates on 95% of all buses and electric buses in the city.

It is a great pride for us to become a laureate of the annual Russian IT Stars award. The Antison system has become one of the best IT solutions in the field of social orientation. It has proved its effectiveness more than once: last year, thanks to Antisnu, the number of road accidents with ground public transport in the city decreased by almost 30%, and over the entire period of operation of the system, more than 11 thousand incidents were prevented. In addition, cameras and sensors are safe for drivers and fully comply with the requirements of sanitary legislation, - Maxim Liksutov. 









Дептранс Москвы


🏅Система «Антисон» стала лауреатом российской премии IT Stars как самый значимый инновационный социальный проект. «Антисон» наблюдает за водителями: сканирует их лица и частоту моргания. Потом передает данные диспетчерам. Так незаметно для пассажиров система делает поездки безопаснее и...




t.me


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)




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## Aokromes (Jan 5, 2005)

🚈Since the beginning of the year, on 10 routes, we have replaced the old Tatras with almost 60 low-floor cars. Another 8 new three-section trams are now preparing to enter the routes of the north-west and north of the city.

Modern trams are much better than those that were 10 years ago:

🔹 instead of steps - low floor: it is easy to enter for both the elderly and passengers with limited mobility
🔹All cars have a climate control system
🔹 there are mounts for bicycles and wheelchairs
🔹USB and Type-C charging slots

We are working to make Moscow transport even more convenient for all passengers. This year, about 60 new fully low-floor cars entered the routes of the Krasnopresnensky depot, which serves the north and north-west of the city. This made it possible to replace the cars of the previous generation with new modern trams. In accordance with the plans approved by the Mayor of Moscow, by the end of 2023, completely low-floor trams will operate on all Moscow routes, - Maxim Liksutov. 









Дептранс Москвы


🚈С начала года на 10 маршрутах мы заменили старые Татры на почти 60 низкопольных вагонов. Ещё 8 новых трехсекционных трамваев сейчас готовятся выйти на маршруты северо-запада и севера города. Современные трамваи намного лучше тех, что были 10 лет назад: 🔹вместо ступеней — низкий пол: легко...




t.me


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## Blackhavvk (Dec 23, 2013)

Annual retrotrams parade


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