# CHINA | High Speed Rail



## gaoanyu

zergcerebrates said:


> They are. The first batches are made in Japan the rest will be made in China. Whats wrong with Japanese products? Don't tell me you have none from them. I know relations between Japan and China has been sour but theres no reason why they shouldn't buy the train from them and learn their technology(besides they agreed to transfer it to us). Japanese are excellent in technology and we should be humble and learn from them so in the future we may excel in that field.


I am not particularly against Japanese products. Indeed, products from any nations, if they are good value for high quality, we say we buy them.
Nothing wrong with tech transfer, because I think tech transfer is the way to go ahead, like if all techs are shared, I am sure the world would be better off. Just like some people are advocating the ideas of open source software.
Maybe I was mistaken. I thought China has been developing its high speed trains for years now, why wouldn't they just use our own technology? I wouldn't mind if ours are a bit slower than the Japanese ones. In fact, I think the China star can run at around 300km/h, why wouldn't they just use this one?


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## thyrdrail

gaoanyu said:


> ...I thought China has been developing its high speed trains for years now, why wouldn't they just use our own technology? I wouldn't mind if ours are a bit slower than the Japanese ones. In fact, I think the China star can run at around 300km/h, why wouldn't they just use this one?


umm...maybe they are just not good enough for the amount of money they have to spend to build the system. if you going to spend billions, why not get the best quality?


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## gaoanyu

thyrdrail said:


> umm...maybe they are just not good enough for the amount of money they have to spend to build the system. if you going to spend billions, why not get the best quality?


Then it's self-proven that our research is a failure.


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## desirous

gaoanyu said:


> Then it's self-proven that our research is a failure.


Why is it a failure? In the global economy, self-sufficiency is not the ideal. Look at where that idea did for North Korea. Is China a "failure" for buying Russian airplanes? I think not. It's practicality. Use your own technology when it catches up with the times. No country can become strong enough on self-reliance alone.


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## miamicanes

gaoanyu said:


> Then it's self-proven that our research is a failure.


Not at all. It just proves that at the moment the plans were being finalized a few years ago, it ended up being cheaper or more expedient to just buy the trains from Japan. 

Remember, even if you "have" the technology, you can't just snap your fingers and have a factory ready to manufacture trains using it appear overnight. It takes _years_ to go from first prototype to production-ready train. That's the hardest thing for any engineer to try explaining to salespeople, who never seem to grasp that just because you have something in front of them that "sort of" works (with team of engineers standing behind the curtain, working furiously to keep it from crashing and burning) does *not* mean you have something yet that you can actually take and start using in the real world. Ten years from now, the rail systems buying trains from Japan today will probably be buying cheaper and better ones from China.


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## gaoanyu

I fully understand your points as myself is working in the engineering sector.
Maybe I did not state myselves clearly. 
I am not against technology transfers, in fact, I am a big fan of it.
But I think China has taken too long to develop its own high-speed train tech. If these research bodies do not have a clear ideas as what to achieve and do not set clear schedules, I think the time and money are wasted.
As often happen in China now, a lot of research projects do not have clear schedules and goals, so most of the research funds do not yield commercial or civil products, this is what I am against.
But then again, I guess this is also China will also need to learn. i.e. how to develop sort of an effective scheme for carrying out and assessing government-funded research projects.


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## desirous

When Japan invented their first high-speed train, China was struggling to feed itself. Being on the brink of deploying domestic HSR technology should be something to be proud of. The research isn't wasted if future deployments are with Chinese-made trains; this is only one small portion of a future nationwide system, I presume.


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## google_abcd

*China Building New $27 Billion, 2,300 Km Railway,done in 4 years*

Another Three-Gorge/Tibet railway like project
Good for China's infrastructure
-------------------------
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060803/bs_afp/chinarail 

China building 27-billion-dollar train line from Beijing to Shenzhen 


Thu Aug 3, 2:43 AM ET



BEIJING (AFP) - China is building a 27-billion-dollar train line from Beijing to the southern economic hub of Shenzhen and foreign investors will be invited to join the project, state press reported. 

The new 2,300-kilometer (1,420-mile) railway will cut travel time between the capital and Shenzhen, which borders Hong Kong, from 24 hours to 10, the China Daily said, citing the National Development and Reform Commission.

The track will be designed to allow trains to travel at speeds of at least 200 kilometers an hour, more than twice as fast as the current line, it said.

Work on some sections of the railway has already begun and the entire project is expected to be completed by 2010.

The newspaper, citing government officials, said the entire project was expected to cost around 220 billion yuan (27.5 billion dollars), with foreign investment welcomed.

"We encourage investors from home and abroad and we think it will be a profitable railway," a railways ministry official surnamed Huang said in the report.

The total investment will be recovered within six years of services on the line starting, Huang said.

Construction of a section of the line between Wuhan, the capital of China's central Hubei province, and Guangzhou, the capital of southern Guangdong province in which Shenzhen also lies, began in 2004.

However the National Development and Reform Commission, the government's main economic planning body, only released the blueprint for the entire project on Wednesday, the China Daily said.

The commission said the new railway would be solely for passengers, leaving the old track to carry cargo.

The project is separate from another multi-billion-dollar railway to be built between Beijing and Shanghai, which is also expected to be completed by 2010 and be open to foreign investment.

The Beijing-Shanghai line is epected to cut travel time between China's two most important cities from around 13 hours to five, with the trains expected to reach speeds of 350 kilometers an hour.

The investment costs for that project have not been announced although reports have suggested as much as 25 billion dollars will be ploughed into it.

China announced last year an ambitious plan to spend 250 billion dollars by 2020 to renovate and expand the nation's rail network, one of the largest in the world.


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## Yardmaster

Sounds good to me!


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## Irish Blood English Heart

Why only 200 KM/H though?


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## lpioe

2300 km in 4 years :eek2:


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## pflo777

> Why only 200 KM/H though?


because as soon as they found out how to make a german transrapid style maglev by themselves they will build 550km/h track using that technology right next to it


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## zergcerebrates

*More Pics!*

More Testing pics of the new Chinese Highspeed train


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## teddybear

Wow. There is nothing wrong buying from Japan. China indeed leaping forward even faster.


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## cyberjaya

Can somebody tell me the speed of this train? Which one will be used in the newly-built Beijing-tianjin high speed track?


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## hzkiller

cyberjaya said:


> Can somebody tell me the speed of this train? Which one will be used in the newly-built Beijing-tianjin high speed track?


----------------------
no it's beijing -----shanghai


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## cyberjaya

hzkiller said:


> ----------------------
> no it's beijing -----shanghai


I'm talking about the BJ-TJ high speed rail which will be opened before 2008 Olympics.


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## parker941

cool trains!


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## zergcerebrates

cyberjaya said:


> Can somebody tell me the speed of this train? Which one will be used in the newly-built Beijing-tianjin high speed track?



E2 series trains have a maximum design speed of 315 km/h operational speed should be around 260 km/h. As for the trains use for BJ-Tj not sure, some say its this one some say its the other, no confirmation yet.


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## cyberjaya

zergcerebrates said:


> E2 series trains have a maximum design speed of 315 km/h operational speed should be around 260 km/h. As for the trains use for BJ-Tj not sure, some say its this one some say its the other, no confirmation yet.


315km/h is a bit low. The BJ-TJ rail is designed for max 350km/h so it may use other trains. Thanks anway.


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## zergcerebrates

cyberjaya said:


> 315km/h is a bit low. The BJ-TJ rail is designed for max 350km/h so it may use other trains. Thanks anway.


196mph(315) is actually quite fast. Designed max speed doesnt mean it'll reach max speed though.


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## gaoanyu

They don't look quite like the Shinkansen. Any idea about what the difference might be, if any?


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## thyrdrail

ya those trains are pretty bland looking.


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## zergcerebrates

gaoanyu said:


> They don't look quite like the Shinkansen. Any idea about what the difference might be, if any?



Its basically the same as this train, paint work makes a big difference in appearance.


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## zergcerebrates

*New Chinese High Speed Train Video*

New Chinese Highspeed Train Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS4jzpW_mI8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4By0h9Gb93Y&mode=related&search=


Another Type:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEXK9gM-TO0&mode=related&search=


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## zergcerebrates

*China High Speed Rail Video*

New Chinese Highspeed Train Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS4jzpW_mI8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4By0h9Gb93Y&mode=related&search=


Another Type:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEXK9gM-TO0&mode=related&search=


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## vipermkk

First practical commercial use on GZ-SZ railway


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## raymond_tung88

The trains in each of those videos were different types right?

Where are these trains running? Like where are they building high-speed rail lines? Does anyone have a map?


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## zergcerebrates

raymond_tung88 said:


> The trains in each of those videos were different types right?
> 
> Where are these trains running? Like where are they building high-speed rail lines? Does anyone have a map?


Yeah they're both different.

I have no idea what train is the first one, the 2nd is shinkansen.


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## newyorkrunaway1

i saw this video a while back on another site that linked it! it is amazing hopw fast thos things go. this is what america needs, only if we had a good direction from the leaders of this country!


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## mrmoopt

The first type of train is Adtranz (now Bombardier) 'Regina' train.


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## zergcerebrates

Another Video

Official CCTV news on the train

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4By0h9Gb93Y&mode=related&search=

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5FO1zcg0Y4&mode=related&search=


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## ZZ-II

beautiful train


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## gaoanyu

part 2 of the official CCTV news says:
China's technology, manufactured in China, and the lowest priced.
Is it really China's technology?


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## superchan7

The news has been screaming "Chinese technology" for a while now regarding its trains. The reality is that they are foreign designs, but manufactured in China.

I assume the technology is transferred to Chinese railway producers, who then take note and try to make their own trains.


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## gaoanyu

So cheeky these bastards.


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## Sen

gaoanyu said:


> part 2 of the official CCTV news says:
> China's technology, manufactured in China, and the lowest priced.
> Is it really China's technology?


Inthis news, Shanghai Pearl TV reports that the trains are produced in Qingdao but it's Japanese technology.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95ibDWA82c&mode=related&search=


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## Sen

raymond_tung88 said:


> The trains in each of those videos were different types right?
> 
> Where are these trains running? Like where are they building high-speed rail lines? Does anyone have a map?


it seems that they still run on regular tracks, no high speed track has been built.

the speed is 200km/h-250km/h, much faster than before, but still not a full high speed line.

Beijing-Shanghai now takes 9hrs, when high speed is built i think the objective is to shorten it to 3hrs to 4hrs.


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## Karakuri

Sen said:


> Inthis news, Shanghai Pearl TV reports that the trains are produced in Qingdao but it's Japanese technology.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95ibDWA82c&mode=related&search=


That's obvious. High speed technology knowledge doesn't appear like magic overnight. But China wants to do as Korea did with France's TGV: technology transfer and training with the best engineers in order to finally be able to build foreign technology independently...but the difference is that Korea dosen't pretend it's their own technology hno: .
Anyway, Chinese authorities are going to regret not having entrusted the Beijing-Shanghai line to the French TGV when it will break its own world record at 560 or 570km/h next month.


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## bobdikl

Karakuri said:


> Anyway, Chinese authorities are going to regret not having entrusted the Beijing-Shanghai line to the French TGV when it will break its own world record at 560 or 570km/h next month.


I think the Chinese are not so much about the japanese or French speed in this regard, since both are definely high speed. ? Or rather more to do with buying the technoloy transfer (copying technology) just like they did it with the German Maglev in Shanghai. Let's assume thousands of future lines in china need to be built, they need only to 'buy' one for every technology to overview of the technologies behind. You can official own the technology if you are officially buying them.


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## Yardmaster

Tubeman said:


> *ahem* Railways subforum please, that's what it's for!



I'm confused. I thought I was in the railways sub-forum.


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## cmoonflyer

Nice design !


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## allan_dude

fatastic design! very modern!!


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## elfabyanos

allan_dude said:


> One question, can a TGV and Shinkansen train travel at the same rail tracks and power supply?
> 
> Looks like China is using all types of technology.


They can run on the same tracks and power supply is not an issue. They both have to have multiple power supply capabilities anyway so I would imagine it's not a problem to convert a design for any network. I believe it's generally 25kV AC though.


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## allan_dude

That's cool! ^^


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## Andrew

> The new CRH (China Railway High-speed) bullet train, which has a top speed of 250 kph (155 mph), would cut the journey time on the key Beijing-Shanghai route from nine hours to five. [Reuters]


I was under the impression these trains could travel faster than this. What limits the speed to 250 kph? Is it the capabilities of the train or the track? Can these trains run at faster speeds if used on dedicated HSR tracks?


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## Andrew

Impressive architecture, although for such a large station there do seem to be very few tracks!


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## elfabyanos

^^ from http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/beijing/

"The Beijing-Shanghai high-speed line will have 24 stations, including Tianjin, Jinan, Xuzhou, Bengbu and Nanjing.

The alignment is designed for 350km/h operation, although the initial design top speed has been set at 300km/h (186mph)"

It's more than likely Reuters are quoting the initial service speed. The Chinese intend to reck up the speed. I think the trains will go a bit faster, but there's so much to do first. Going from 250kph to 350kph they'll need to draw twice as much juice from the power network, plus they'll be expanding the service. I think the slightly low 250kph is just because it's better to walk before you can run.


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## elfabyanos

** duplicate post **


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## sathya_226

Authorities are planning to introduce same bullet trains in india too within next 3 years..........These two asian giants (india and china) are growing leaps and bounds,,,,,,,best of luck to both of them...........


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## z0rg

*Hohhot (Inner Mongolia, China) new railway station*




























Amazing :O


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## lpioe

Unusual design but I really like it 
Will it be located in the city centre?


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## zergcerebrates

Wow this train station looks amazing! When will it be built?


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## allan_dude

Cool! modern structure for mongolia! kay:


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## zergcerebrates

allan_dude said:


> Cool! modern structure for mongolia! kay:




Its China not Mongolia.:bash: Inner Mongolia is a Chinese province.


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## Gecko1989

k I love it its great in all and I really hope they will build it but.........is there that much railway traffic that they need such a large new rail station there.


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## kelvinyang

Like an air carrier.


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## Bitxofo

Amazing station!
:eek2:


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## Bitxofo

Incredible station!!
:eek2:


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## Huhu

Gecko1989 said:


> k I love it its great in all and I really hope they will build it but.........is there that much railway traffic that they need such a large new rail station there.


Hohhot has a population of 2.5 million and Inner Mongolia has a population of over 23 million.

Anyways the station doesn't look _that_ big.


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## Sen

I like the simplistic scheme on CRH, it is certainly better than whatever is on the old Chinese trains. Now THAT was ugly paint.


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## thainotts

^^ A bit tacky with the Chinese-style towers. The other structures seem a bit boring and hastily put together. Not very coherent, IMO.

How busy is it?


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## big-dog

it's an old station (over 10 years) and the design was controversial at the beginning.


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## mrmoopt

I think Taipei has a station like that too.


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## zergcerebrates

Isn't China currently building a new station in Beijing?


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## ZZ-II

massive station!


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## Nefast

I think the concept of the design is very nice, the railway station as the modern city gate. It's also positive that they attempt to adhere to traditional architecture. But I don't find the execution that very well succeeded. And I don't like the aesthetical appearance of the interior at all. The inside looks like a giant mall. It's a pity because it's one of the most important, if not the most important, railway stations in China.
So to be short, nice concept in mind, exterior gives a grand impressive, nice that they try to incorporate traditional features but bad execution, very unappealing interior.
I prefer the grandeur of big European stations.



> Isn't China currently building a new station in Beijing?


Yes. They're building a new south station. I believe it is meant as a terminus for high speed trains to Tianjin and Shanghai. But I may be wrong on that last one.


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## hp500hp

An ugly, horrid piece of architecture.


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## hp500hp

Just copy others technology and build your own version.
Then proclaim on the media as your own.
Not much to be proud of really


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## superchan7

They're not copied; I think it was already mentioned twice. These are imported trains/tech. The news just says "locally-produced," without mentioning where the designs are from. One railway official did make the misleading claim that the "technology is Chinese," which is only true because of tech. transfer from Alstom, Shinkansen, etc.


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## hp500hp

Yep... national pride 
I think its understandable 
because in China national pride is everything

The Chinese media has this very important task 
to use carefully-worded language
to lie in a clever way 

Welcome to China


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## hkskyline

Western companies do realize that they cannot merely sell more trainsets to China without doing some technology transfer, hence joint ventures and local production would definitely be in the mix when it comes to a multi-million dollar purchase deal such as this one.


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## hp500hp

Shanghai South heaps better


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## ningxiard

hp500hp said:


> Yep... national pride
> I think its understandable
> because in China national pride is everything
> 
> The Chinese media has this very important task
> to use carefully-worded language
> to lie in a clever way
> 
> Welcome to China


weren't you banned before? or someone with a similiar name was banned? Anyway, it doesn't matter, if you keep going further, you will probably also be banned. :nuts:


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## Sen

hp500hp said:


> Just copy others technology and build your own version.
> Then proclaim on the media as your own.
> Not much to be proud of really


do some search about a thing called licensed production before you open your big fucking ignorant mouth.
Koreans call TGV KTX, Spaniards call TGV AVE, are theirs copied too?


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## hp500hp

Sen said:


> do some search about a thing called licensed production before you open your big fucking ignorant mouth.
> Koreans call TGV KTX, Spaniards call TGV AVE, are theirs copied too?


Korean media would acknowledge that its from the TGV
If ppl here can make a quick search of the Chinese CCTV media 
and then use Altavista Bablefish to translate it 
Then you will know what I mean 

In fact there was a Japanese media report citing ohw Chinese media make their own interpretations, proclaiming that China possesses full rights licensed production of CRH2 and yet not a single word that technology is from Japan. And most ironic of all is they are running CRH 2 to Nanjing.


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## hp500hp

Sen said:


> do some search about a thing called licensed production before you open your big fucking ignorant mouth.
> Koreans call TGV KTX, Spaniards call TGV AVE, are theirs copied too?


Whoa! Watch your language.


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## Sen

hp500hp said:


> Korean media would acknowledge that its from the TGV
> If ppl here can make a quick search of the Chinese CCTV media
> and then use Altavista Bablefish to translate it
> Then you will know what I mean
> 
> In fact there was a Japanese media report citing ohw Chinese media make their own interpretations, proclaiming that China possesses full rights licensed production of CRH2 and yet not a single word that technology is from Japan. And most ironic of all is they are running CRH 2 to Nanjing.


watch it yourself.
I am sick of ignorant TROLLS like you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95ibDWA82c


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## hp500hp

http://news.cctv.com/20070408/100321.shtml
The official Chinese news media reports on the sixth speed increase nationwide, 

here is a short excerpt of the report regarding high speed rail trainsets with the corresponding English translation below. This very long article of more than 1000 words did mention 75% of it is Chinese made but not a single word on where the technology is from.

　　将在4月18日全国铁路第六次大面积提速中投入使用的时速200公里及以上动车组，因其技术新颖、速度飞快、并且以英文字母“D”打头，被人们亲切地称作头文字“D”列车，而这些首次被投入使用的“子弹头”动车组也成为此次提速最为抢眼的亮点所在。据悉，第六次大提速的新产品就是以开行城际间和城市群间动车组为主要标志的新产品服务，其速度目标值、技术含量、提速规模和范围都将超过我国前五次铁路提速。

　.......
　　有关专家告诉本报记者，此次推出时速200到250公里的动车组在引进消化创新的基础上，在集成、牵引、制动、车体、走行以及网络等关键技术上都有所创新，譬如我们生产的动车组，车体重量比传统客车减轻了一半。“*动车组的国产化率达到了75％以上，可以说中国人已经掌握了时速200公里以上动车组的核心技术。*”

　　
Translation from internet translator
"*Moved vehicle crew's domestic product rate to achieve above 75%, was allowed to say the Chinese already grasped above the speed 200 kilometers to move vehicle crew's core technology*."


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## ChinaboyUSA

wow, that's very nice.


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## Sen

hp500hp said:


> http://news.cctv.com/20070408/100321.shtml
> The official Chinese news media reports on the sixth speed increase nationwide,
> 
> here is a short excerpt of the report regarding high speed rail trainsets with the corresponding English translation below. This very long article of more than 1000 words did mention 75% of it is Chinese made but not a single word on where the technology is from.
> 
> 将在4月18日全国铁路第六次大面积提速中投入使用的时速200公里及以上动车组，因其技术新颖、速度飞快、并且以英文字母“D”打头，被人们亲切地称作头文字“D”列车，而这些首次被投入使用的“子弹头”动车组也成为此次提速最为抢眼的亮点所在。据悉，第六次大提速的新产品就是以开行城际间和城市群间动车组为主要标志的新产品服务，其速度目标值、技术含量、提速规模和范围都将超过我国前五次铁路提速。
> 
> .......
> 有关专家告诉本报记者，此次推出时速200到250公里的动车组在引进消化创新的基础上，在集成、牵引、制动、车体、走行以及网络等关键技术上都有所创新，譬如我们生产的动车组，车体重量比传统客车减轻了一半。“*动车组的国产化率达到了75％以上，可以说中国人已经掌握了时速200公里以上动车组的核心技术。*”
> 
> 
> Translation from internet translator
> "*Moved vehicle crew's domestic product rate to achieve above 75%, was allowed to say the Chinese already grasped above the speed 200 kilometers to move vehicle crew's core technology*."


It's from some random newspaper (Shenzhen Special Zone News), you can't take it seriously can you?


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## hp500hp

Sen said:


> It's from some random newspaper (Shenzhen Special Zone News), you can't take it seriously can you?


Well I don't know if there are tabloids in China, are there?
I thought there is a umbrella watchdog that is responsible for regulation of news services so social harmony and national interests can be preserved.


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## Sen

well there are TV stations (such as Shanghai TV) that report it is made jointly by a Chinese company and a Japanese consortium(quality journlism), while there are media that writes fancy stuff like "the trains' English name start with D, and they came to be known as the Initial D in the train world"<-seriously I have never heard of someone referring to them as Initial D.And they don't even start with D, I have no idea where they got that. I guess different opinions exist afterall and the educated people can choose to believe in the educated opinions the ignorant can remain ignorant, no?


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## Jiangwho

hp500hp said:


> Yep... national pride
> I think its understandable
> because in China national pride is everything
> 
> The Chinese media has this very important task
> to use carefully-worded language
> to lie in a clever way
> 
> Welcome to China


Come on. its just a discussion on the train. Nobody here claimed that they pride of the train. I donot care where the train comes from or who produced it. I just care we are improving our rail system. thats all .
and pls no more bullshit here. PLEASE:master: :master:


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## hkth

CRH5's design is REALLY SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bash: :bash: :bash: 

I prefer CRH1.


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## hp500hp

hkth said:


> CRH5's design is REALLY SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bash: :bash: :bash:
> 
> I prefer CRH1.


Best is CRH 2
Really pitiful it was produced in Japan and was put on to run the Nanjing route 
Dunno who thought of this routing


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## hp500hp

http://tsearch.chinadaily.com.cn/was40/search?channelid=38056
China Daily is one of China's official English newspaper

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2007-01/09/content_778019.htm
English Language official Chinese media is better in the way it admits using foreign technology 

First, as China matures in its economic development and its status in the world rises, it's eager to prove it can meet its technology needs with a *minimum of foreign assistance* and develop its own brands.

*Three Chinese manufacturers one each working together with Bombardier of Canada, Alstom of Germany and Kawasaki Heavy Industries of Japan won the bids to apply the technology provided by their foreign partners that will improve the locomotives' power and speed and a more comfortable ride.*

Applying the foreign technology to the unique features of the Chinese rail system, China has forged its own brand of high-speed railway locomotive China Railway of High Speed (CRH) to which *China owns intellectual property rights*, said Zhang Shuguang, the ministry's deputy general engineer.


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## Sen

hp500hp said:


> Best is CRH 2
> Really pitiful it was produced in Japan and was put on to run the Nanjing route
> Dunno who thought of this routing


The best is gonna be CRH3.


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## thainotts

hp500hp said:


> http://tsearch.chinadaily.com.cn/was40/search?channelid=38056
> China Daily is one of China's official English newspaper
> 
> http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2007-01/09/content_778019.htm
> English Language official Chinese media is better in the way it admits using foreign technology
> 
> First, as China matures in its economic development and its status in the world rises, it's eager to prove it can meet its technology needs with a *minimum of foreign assistance* and develop its own brands.
> 
> *Three Chinese manufacturers one each working together with Bombardier of Canada, Alstom of Germany and Kawasaki Heavy Industries of Japan won the bids to apply the technology provided by their foreign partners that will improve the locomotives' power and speed and a more comfortable ride.*
> 
> Applying the foreign technology to the unique features of the Chinese rail system, China has forged its own brand of high-speed railway locomotive China Railway of High Speed (CRH) to which *China owns intellectual property rights*, said Zhang Shuguang, the ministry's deputy general engineer.


So tell me how that is copying? Or are you taking back your word now? :lol: 

Your argument is tenuous as best, but what can you do, you're only defending a troll's post.



hp500hp said:


> Just copy others technology and build your own version.
> Then proclaim on the media as your own.
> Not much to be proud of really


----------



## zergcerebrates

hp500hp said:


> Just copy others technology and build your own version.
> Then proclaim on the media as your own.
> Not much to be proud of really


Why do people like you have to exist in this forum and stir up flames?

First never did China said this was built entirely themselves. If you watch one of the news videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95ibDWA82c the news clearly states that it was built together with Japanese assitance using Shinkansen design. As mentioned countless times in this forum, the first batch of trains are all built by the country it originates and will be locally produced under license and in this case this E2 Shinkansen series is locally made.


----------



## zergcerebrates

hp500hp said:


> Best is CRH 2
> Really pitiful it was produced in Japan and was put on to run the Nanjing route
> Dunno who thought of this routing



Move on, its the 21st century. How many years must Chinese dwell on this Nanjing Massacre/Japanese invasion thing? For a thousand years? Jews by Mercedes Benz and BMWs, American by Japanese and German Cars, heck even Koreans by Japanese products.


----------



## zergcerebrates

hp500hp said:


> http://news.cctv.com/20070408/100321.shtml
> The official Chinese news media reports on the sixth speed increase nationwide,
> 
> here is a short excerpt of the report regarding high speed rail trainsets with the corresponding English translation below. This very long article of more than 1000 words did mention 75% of it is Chinese made but not a single word on where the technology is from.
> 
> 将在4月18日全国铁路第六次大面积提速中投入使用的时速200公里及以上动车组，因其技术新颖、速度飞快、并且以英文字母“D”打头，被人们亲切地称作头文字“D”列车，而这些首次被投入使用的“子弹头”动车组也成为此次提速最为抢眼的亮点所在。据悉，第六次大提速的新产品就是以开行城际间和城市群间动车组为主要标志的新产品服务，其速度目标值、技术含量、提速规模和范围都将超过我国前五次铁路提速。
> 
> .......
> 有关专家告诉本报记者，此次推出时速200到250公里的动车组在引进消化创新的基础上，在集成、牵引、制动、车体、走行以及网络等关键技术上都有所创新，譬如我们生产的动车组，车体重量比传统客车减轻了一半。“*动车组的国产化率达到了75％以上，可以说中国人已经掌握了时速200公里以上动车组的核心技术。*”
> 
> 
> Translation from internet translator
> "*Moved vehicle crew's domestic product rate to achieve above 75%, was allowed to say the Chinese already grasped above the speed 200 kilometers to move vehicle crew's core technology*."




The world uses paper and gunpowder all the time, must every city in the world who blow up fireworks in their sky mention that its a Chinese technology?


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## hp500hp

zergcerebrates said:


> Move on, its the 21st century. How many years must Chinese dwell on this Nanjing Massacre/Japanese invasion thing? For a thousand years? Jews by Mercedes Benz and BMWs, American by Japanese and German Cars, heck even Koreans by Japanese products.


In China this is such a sensitive issue. By no means is the relationship between China and Japan good. The following protests happened last year, which is in the 21st century. Shanghai protesters wreaking havoc on Japanese embassy.


























Remains of the Japanese embassy in Shanghai after widespread demonstrations































































Japanese restaurants, despite wholly-owned by local Chinese, were not spared.


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## null

dead man walking...


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## Lightness

Haha

I'm really sorry to further discuss this stupid post which doesn't belong here...

...but this guy with the No-to-Japs sign is so funny! I mean, could he possibly be any more specific in his disliking of the other nation. Boy, is he to the point. :lol:

Anyway, lets move on with the CRH5 topic, which I find very interesting and try to keep this topic open. Is the CRH5 only intended for a particular route or many?


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## fettishma

A very violent bunch of people


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## null

there's no need to register again,my dear


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## BigChina

*4.18 China-rail Speed up!*




























Today .
The China-rail Speed up...
The railway about 6003km will be speed up to more than 200km/h


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## zergcerebrates

I can't wait for the CRH3


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## hzkiller




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## hzkiller




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## hzkiller

tv:250km/h-------18/4http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/zwGzeZGl21M/


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## hzkiller




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## big-dog

Long-waited 6th nation-wide speed rising begins :banana: 

China's railway network enters high speed era



> Vice Minister of Railways Hu Yadong announced Wednesday that on April 18, the railway speed limit will be raised for the sixth time, allowing trains in most parts of the country to travel 20% to 30% faster, at speeds of more than 200 and up to 250 kilometers per hour. China has entered an era of high speed railway travel which will benefit both people and economic development.
> 
> 
> *Passenger transportation capacity to increase by 18%*
> 
> According to Hu Yadong, 212 pairs of trains will increase their speed to more than 200 kilometers per hour. They are not only operating in eastern coastal areas such as Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou, but also in northwest and northeast China. Travel time between big cities will be substantially reduced. The number of trains that set off in the evening and arrive in the morning will increase from 32 to 337. The speed of passenger trains along 18 lines will be increased to more than 120 kilometers per hour.
> 
> The increase in train speed does not mean an increase in prices. Taking a train will be more comfortable than ever before. There will be Class A and Class B seats and a dining carriage. Both kinds of seats are very comfortable but in Class A there are fewer seats and there is more room. There will be audio and video systems in the train. Lights and signs in the train all meet international standards. The environment in the train is also much better than the current passenger trains.
> 
> The Ministry of Railways has formed four food companies which will supply passengers with different foods according to passenger needs, the season and the region. They will ensure that prices on the train are no higher than those off the train.
> 
> 
> *Train will be safer*
> 
> Vice Minister Hu Yadong said China has mastered all the technologies needed for trains to travel at a speed of 250 kilometers per hour. The electricity supply system, railway facilities and train control system are all world class.
> 
> He said the Ministry of Railway has always paid great attention to safety on the railways after increasing speed limits. Since 2003, China has invested approximately 100 million yuan in upgrading railway lines.
> 
> 
> *Cargo transport capacity will increase by 12%*
> 
> Hu Yadong said the speed limit increase will promote the rail cargo industry. On the new cargo train map, there are 121 lines, 30 more than in 2004. The new train map incorporates 90 major cities and 8 ports across China. "This will be very convenient for the transportation market," said Hu Yadong.
> 
> According to the new train map, there has been a substantial increase in the number of direct lines for resource type products such as coal, iron and oil. The number of direct lines for these products has risen to 406, up 226 lines from 2004. A transportation network for resource products will be formed and help guarantee the transportation of key national materials in the future.


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## big-dog

I will have a trip to Beijing on Thursday and take the high speed train to Tianjin  Can't wait for the train trip!


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## vristo

*Speed up also in Fuzhou (Fuijan province)*

Some photos about the celebrations of the speed up from Fuzhou. This train is not any CRHx but the New Era of railway started also here today anyway. Good work China!


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## hzkiller

250km/h


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## hzkiller

250 km / h


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## hzkiller

250km/h


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## Epi

hzkiller said:


> 250km/h


Poor .... bird? Squirrel? racoon?... :lol: 

Good pics though


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## hzkiller

it's birds ~~~hahahahaah~~


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## zergcerebrates

Nice trains. I don't mind them putting Chinese words on it, but that font doesnt look nice. Using small fonts putting Chinese characters below or top of the english "CRH" would look so much nicer.


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## Jiangwho

hzkiller said:


> it's birds ~~~hahahahaah~~


:nuts: blood killing...


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## YelloPerilo

zergcerebrates said:


> Nice trains. I don't mind them putting Chinese words on it, but that font doesnt look nice. Using small fonts putting Chinese characters below or top of the english "CRH" would look so much nicer.


Why should the Chinese fonts be smaller than Latin fonts?


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## hzkiller

*CRH5---china railway highspeed~~(right?)*


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## hzkiller




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## hzkiller




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## hzkiller




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## hzkiller




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## Swede

Considering the number of paasengers I'm kinda surprised China doesn't have any two-level high-speed trains yet. 

Oh, and you call that a bloody nose? pfft! This train...









with the help of a moose turns into this


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## Trainman Dave

wigo said:


> This flash shows the routes that are above 200 KPH after this speed up.
> 
> http://news.sina.com.cn/pc/2007-04-16/326/172.html


I finally found a chinese friend who helped me with the language. He disagreed that this was the routes above 200 km/h on April 18th.  It appears to include all the routes which been speeded up since 1996 and not all of them are planned for 200+ km/h and many which are planned for 200/250/300 km/h will not have the speed increased until 2010.

For example, we could not determine if the line from Jinan to Nanjing has even been electrified yet.


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## Paulo2004

Nice.


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## hzkiller

Nanjing Raiwaystation


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## Sen

*Is China officially in HSR era now?*

Do you think China now officially qualifies as a nation with high speed railways? it confuses me for several reasons.You can argue it is operating HSR because the Shinkansen train and the Bombardier train China purchased can run at 200 km/h+, the newer type of Shinkansen and the ICE3 that are going to be introduced this summer could possibly reach 300km/h+. Also a separate brand (CRH) has been created to differentiate the high speed service with the regular service. On the other hand they all run on conventional tracks no dedicated HSR tracks have been built, also China does not make its own high speed trains for commercial use though experimental prototype that could reach 250km/h has been produced as early as 2003...


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## Trainman Dave

Trainman Dave said:


> For example, we could not determine if the line from Jinan to Nanjing has even been electrified yet.


It has been confirmed that the entire route from Shanghai to Beijing is electrified


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## Trainman Dave

Absolutely!

The Quinshen Dedicated Passeneger Line (DPL) opened in 2003 with trains operating at 200 km/h. This is a 404 km section of the the Beijing - Shenyang route via Qinhuangdao. In 2005 the speed limit was raised to 250 km/h and soon it expected to raise again to 300 km/h.

I believe that this is first section dedicated passeneger railway in China, but it was not the first section to operate at 200 km/h. The Guangshen railway was testing Swedish X2000 trains in commercial operation in 1999 between Guangzhou and Shenzen in south China.

On April 18th this year between 800 and 1000 km had been upgraded for operation at 250 km/h and more will follow rapidly.

To put this in context, in 1996 China introduced three "proof of concept" trains which operated from Beijing to Shanghai and Shenyang at 140 km/h. In 1998 about 450 km were authorized for operation at 160 km/h. The technology surge over the last 10 years on the Chinese railways is extraordinary!


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## Trainman Dave

OOOPS!

DPL should be PDL (Passenger Dedicated Line) source:Wikipedia
sometimes refered to as "special passenger railway" source: press releases


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## eomer

HSR = 250 km/h. The answer is YES.
China is the only one country in the world to use Transrapid for commercial transportation.


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## Andrew

Well if you're going to be picky, you can argue that Transrapid is not actually high speed *rail*.

But in any case ...


> The Quinshen Dedicated Passeneger Line (DPL) opened in 2003 with trains operating at 200 km/h. This is a 404 km section of the the Beijing - Shenyang route via Qinhuangdao. In 2005 the speed limit was raised to 250 km/h and soon it expected to raise again to 300 km/h.


This surely is enough to qualify China as being in the list of countries with high speed rail.


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## zergcerebrates

Most Certainly.


China became a country with one of the most highspeed trains in a very short time. I believe it will also be very exciting in the future because China is the only nation in the world that has German, Italian, Japanese, Canadian,Swedish, Chinese and possibly even French trains running on its tracks. I can't wait to see the day when different bullet trains sits on the same station it will be a very cool sight.


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## zergcerebrates

Trainman Dave said:


> It has been confirmed that the entire route from Shanghai to Beijing is electrified


Of course it will you wouldn't expect them to go back steam now did you?:lol:


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## pflo777

for the population density china has at the east coast, high speed rail is the ideal solution. If you make it fast enough, you can save a lot of Co2 emmission, that would have been made by domestic flights.

I heard that they built a new Factory near Bejing for the new type of guidway, thats necessary for trains to travel above 300 km/h...

Does someone have pics of that guidway already?
It must look something like the new high speed line between munich and nuremburg, because they purchased the necessary patents from the firm who built that one...


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## ChinaboyUSA

*CRH2 (China Railway Highspeed 2) Video!*

I believe this is one of the most complete video clip shows the various types of passenger trains running on China's railroad, including CRH2, this line is in between Nanjing - Shanghai - Hangzhou - Ningbo.

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/dZAgPdZZoI0/


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## hmmwv

hzkiller said:


> Nanjing Raiwaystation


Love the station, been there several times and it looks a lot better when it's docked by CRHs. The high platforms are specially design for those modern EMUs. The pics remind me JR stations, like in a sci fi movie.


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## hzkiller

good job ~but which is crh2


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## pflo777

nice station, nice trains 

BUT WHY IS IT SO DAMNED DIRTY?

I mean, you cant even see the top of the former white columns and girders, becauses they are completely black because of dirt...

Chinese Rail should be able to afford a cleaning team taking care of that...


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## zergcerebrates

hzkiller said:


> good job ~but which is crh2


The first train is CRH2 and at 2:28 thats CRH2 as well.


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## zergcerebrates

WOW I saw the CRH3 in there, the ICE train from Germany!


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## hmmwv

Don't really what are you talking about


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## hmmwv

Nice video of trains after the 6th speed boost. We can see DF11, DF11G, SS9 CRH2 and CRH3, all traveling according to the new schedule. 100mph speed becomes common place.


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## pflo777

I am talking about the dirt that is lying on top of the white girders.
It should be possible to clean them once a year...but as it looks, the havent been cleaned for as long as the station exists.


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## Trainman Dave

I don't think this video has an CRH3 train in it.
2:28 is definitely a CRH2
about 3:30 is a train which is not a CRH2 but I don't think it is a CRH3. the CRH3 is not supposed to be schedule for service until late this year or even next year.


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## Kiss the Rain

I know they look and are old and blah blah blah, but i want my old train carriages back!!!! oh, how they bring back the memorys, i think they are not just trains but rather something embedded into the modern chinese culture.


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## Andrew

Are any of the new high-speed trains sleeper trains? The reason I ask is because with the distances in China, even using the fastest high speed trains (i.e. 300kmh), journeys could still take many hours. Since the speeds aren't at that level yet, with new trains 'only' going 200kmh, I can imagine such long journeys would be quite uncomfortable if you're stuck in a seat. I've had to endure a 10 hour journey on a packed train in hard seat class, and it's not pleasent! I know the seats on new trains will probably be much more comfortable than that, but still...


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## Trainman Dave

The current speed increase appears to be focused shorter distance "intercity" trains with the Beijing - Shenyang being the longest so far. I believe that plan is to reduce the journey time between the major cities to less than 10 hours but we will have to wait and see.


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## superchan7

A while back (2002 I think), they built an EMU unit that is close in appearance to the ICE3 but using local technology. I think it's not the actual ICE3.


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## ChinaboyUSA

the video is actually took about one month before the 6th speek boost, so the CRH is on the quasi-running time, after 4.18, I believe there are more CRH on the track. On this line, Nanjin - Shanghai - Hangzhou - Ningbo, I think it is CRH2, so all the CRH appear on this video is CRH2.


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## hmmwv

Trainman Dave said:


> I don't think this video has an CRH3 train in it.
> 2:28 is definitely a CRH2
> about 3:30 is a train which is not a CRH2 but I don't think it is a CRH3. the CRH3 is not supposed to be schedule for service until late this year or even next year.


It's CRH3 on test runs, there are no CRH3s on regular schedule, only CRH1, 2 and 5.


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## hmmwv

pflo777 said:


> I am talking about the dirt that is lying on top of the white girders.
> It should be possible to clean them once a year...but as it looks, the havent been cleaned for as long as the station exists.


I see, but I don't think that's just dirt though, it seems to be just like that when the station first opened. The station is only a year and half old.


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## zergcerebrates

Does anyone know of the ICE3 train China is getting the Tilt kind?


----------



## clkgtr

pflo777 said:


> nice station, nice trains
> 
> BUT WHY IS IT SO DAMNED DIRTY?
> 
> I mean, you cant even see the top of the former white columns and girders, becauses they are completely black because of dirt...
> 
> Chinese Rail should be able to afford a cleaning team taking care of that...


Because there are still many Diesel locomotives going through the station,like DF8B,DF11,DF11G...








:cheers:


----------



## clkgtr

Another picture








Thanks to the photographers


----------



## hkth

Just *10 years*, train speeds rised from 40km/h to 300km/h for SIX TIMES! :banana:


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## clkgtr

There are no CRH3.
The first CRH3 will enter service in 1st season of 2008 or later.
CRH3 is based on Velaro platform ,no tilt kind :colgate:


----------



## clkgtr

At 3:30,this train really looks like a Ice3,but it is not.It is Changbai Mountain,which is built by Changchun Railway Vehicles Co.,Ltd.
here are some pics


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## Andrew

I thought it was 200km/h


----------



## Trainman Dave

more like 60km/h to 250 km/h in the ten year period


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## Trainman Dave

Thank you "clkgtr". Great pictures. I am glad to know that there was an alternative to the ICE3.

Do have you have any more details on the "Changbai Mountain" trainset?

For example:
Maximum Operating Speed?
On which route is it deployed?
When did it first operate?


----------



## clkgtr

Trainman Dave said:


> Thank you "clkgtr". Great pictures. I am glad to know that there was an alternative to the ICE3.
> 
> Do have you have any more details on the "Changbai Mountain" trainset?
> 
> For example:
> Maximum Operating Speed?
> On which route is it deployed?
> When did it first operate?


Hi,I get some info about this train,some tech data
This trainset is a distributed-powered EMU with 6M3T.
voltage:25kV/50Hz
tranction power:265*24=6360kw
weight(empty):53t(M),52.5t(T)
capacity:650
Max.Speed:210km/h
Max. test speed:230km/h
built:2004
test year:2005

After 4.18,2007 it is used between Shenyang and Dalian(First enter service)
here is a schedule
Train No. Depart station Depart time Arrive time Duration
T540 Shenyang 7:30 10:55 03h25min
T542 North Shenyang 7:35 11:03 03h28min
T544 Shenyang 15:30 18:55 03h25min
T546 North Shenyang 15:35 19:03 03h28min

Because of some reason,there is only one Changbai Mountain trainset,it is considered as a test train.hno:


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## Trainman Dave

Thank you "clkgtr". Very useful data!


----------



## growingup

Well, Siemens Velaro has to be considered as a HST platform, as there are several models with different caharacteristics:

ICE 3 (DB Class 403) is the original version of the Velaro. The train is licensed for 330 km/h and has reached 368 km/h on trial runs. In InterCityExpress service it is limited to 300 km/h, because this is the maximum design speed of German high-speed lines. It weights 409t and has a power output of 8000KW.

ICE 3M (DB Class 406) was developed to operate services Europe wide under the four different Railway electrification systems in use on Europe's main lines and with support for various train security systems. As of 2007, the train is licensed for operation in Switzerland, the Netherlands, Belgium and France. Currently those trains are used for cross-border runs between Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, and Switzerland. In France, the ICE 3M will reach speeds of up to 320 km/h in of a joint service with the TGV on the LGV Est starting on June 20, 2007. It weights 435t and has a power output of 8000KW. It is also licensed for a maximum speed of 330Km/h.

Velaro E ("Velaro España") which will be designated AVE S-103. Spanish RENFE has ordered a stronger version with a licensed maximum speed of 350Km/h, a power ouput of 8800KW and a weight of 425t. It only works at 25 kV 50 Hz, UIC standards. On 15 July 2006 a train achieved a top speed of 403.7 km/h between Guadalajara and Calatayud on the Madrid—Zaragoza line. This is a Spanish record for railed vehicles and a world record for unmodified commercial service trainsets, as the earlier TGV and ICE records were achieved with specially modified and shortened trainsets, and the Shinkansen (443 km/h, 1996) record was for a test (non-commercial) trainset.

CRH3 will be very similar to the ICE 3 (not based on Velaro E), but 30 centimeters wider to fit in additional seats. In the CRH 3 version, a 200 m Velaro train will seat 600 passengers. These train would be manufactured jointly by Siemens and CNR Tangshan. I think 60 units has been ordered.
Power Output: 8000KW
Maximum Licensed Speed: 330Km/h

Velaro RUS ("Velaro Russia") at a speed of up to 250 km/h, are based on the ICE3 train standard but broadened by 33 cm to fit Russian broad gauge. Some trains will be prepared for both direct current and alternating current operation. The total length of each ten-car train will be 250 m, carrying up to 600 passengers.


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## SimFox

Velaro Rus differs significantly from European versions since many mechanical parts of the train will be to a great degree built from different, higher grade materials in order to ensure safe operation in very harsh conditions, namely the trains would continue to run even at -50C at full speeds - normal Velaro will turn into pile of components and parts at this conditions. In addition to this the entire undercarriage will be redesigned basically completely sealing everything but the actual wheels. Generally train will be significantly buffed up and be slower then European version. 
Given that winters in North-East China could be very harsh too it would be logical to assume that some alternation to improve the climatic safety will be employed on that design as well.


----------



## zergcerebrates

Interesting Info here, didn't know the Chinese one is actually wider.


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## SimFox

BTW how much does the ride from Shaghai to Nanjing cost??


----------



## gaoanyu

Trainman Dave said:


> Detailed reporting in the english language press in sketchy. Did they actually run all the way to Harbin?


I think D25 runs from Beijing to Harbin in 8 hrs and 8 mins (07:20-15:28);
D26 runs back in 7 hrs and 50mins (13:50-21:40).
Distance between the two cities is 1248km.
There are 4 other stops en-route: Qinhuangdao, Shenyang North, Siping, Changchun. First class costs 351RMB, second class costs 281RMB, for singles.

I think initially they plan to launch two services/day, but then only one went into service, the other had some technical problems from what I heard.

I also heard that after some time, the time will be further decreased to 7hrs 20mins. Maybe that will be a non-stop service. :cheers:


----------



## duskdawn

^^ This is due to the potential stir-ups of national resentment against Japan which is already on fire in the last few years.


----------



## snowmancn

duskdawn said:


> ^^ This is due to the potential stir-ups of national resentment against Japan which is already on fire in the last few years.


I am afraid if some angry teenage knew CHR2 has something to do with the Japanese they will throw rocks on it. So the government was right, if lies can avoided those rocks, why not. Anyway China bought Japanese tech, and all those CHR2 are made in China now (only 3 CHR2 are from Japan), then now the government tell the truth: it is made in China, nobody can deny it, even the Japanese. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## big-dog

[email protected] said:


> The fact was built with technology, such as JR East of Japan, and the Kawasaki. It has not decided in what China developed from basic research. Chinese people should kneel down and appreciate to Japanese people.
> 
> In addition, I want you to apologize also for the invasion to Japan in the 13th century. Is the Chinese textbook showing children the history of the invasion to Japan? Is it teaching having given ODA of 30 billion US dollars? It is impudent.


I think Japs should kneel down and appreciate that China purchased their technology not others'.

have you learned that China gave up the war conpensation for the friendship of two countries? 

Stop spitting in here, Jap troll, you make me start to look down Japanese people.


----------



## snowmancn

[email protected] said:


> The fact was built with technology, such as JR East of Japan, and the Kawasaki. It has not decided in what China developed from basic research. Chinese people should kneel down and appreciate to Japanese people.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not think you are a Japanese, twenty years ago when I bought a coke in a Japanese airport, the salesgirl smiled and said:" thank you" to me. Now after 20 years, humankind has progressed rapidly, China has just bought 3 CRH2 and the tech for making it from Japan, the Japanese should be smiled and say:"thank you." to all Chinese unless the civilization of Japan has fallen behind 20 years ago.


----------



## Sen

[email protected] said:


> 13 centuries, also the Chinese and Korea allied forces, two times have invaded Japan. That is the Mongolian Invasions. The japanese of the multitude is killed, gives the shock of the extent where the Japanese government of that time turns over. Also China and Korea, are something which is wanted apologizing to Japan.
> 
> The shinkansen is a motor in all vehicle, as for TGV is a motor in just the vehicle the both ends. As for the full speed of TGV, 571km/h which is recorded in 2007. As for the Shinkansen, 443km/h which is recorded in 1996.


You should be thankful to us instead of asking for an apology. the Chinese workers who built the ships for Mongolian navy intentionally built ships in a form that is not suitable for travelling in high seas because they are still angry at the Mongolian conquest. If it weren't for Chinese Japan would be conquered by Mongols in no time even your Kamikaze wouldn't save you.


----------



## pflo777

the good thing is, if China starts a war with Japan (or the other way round, I dont care...), the only one who would not suffer is the west..... it woud be a nice Proxy war for the US to keep their No1 position....

hmh...wasnt this thread about trains?


----------



## big-dog

[email protected] said:


> I have an impression that the Chinese majority write hatred to Japan and a Japanese when I watch this thread. Japan paid China 30000000000 dollars ODA. I rise to 100000000000 dollars if I include technological assistance.
> The intellectual property rights infringement that Japan takes from China is 90000000000 dollars in a year. In addition, anti-war anti nuclear education is performed with a school subject book.
> Did you watch "Nausicca of a valley of wind" of an anti-war movie of Manager Hayao Miyazaki？
> 
> However, I reflect on aggression to Japan of the thirteenth century, and China and Korea do not apologize. I do not thank for technological assistance either. I am totally unfair.
> 
> Why does not a restroom in China have a door? 　Even if there is a door, a Chinese of the majority does not close a door.
> It will be a point that China makes environment of a restroom better. Diffusion rate of a warm water washing restroom exceeds 60% in Japan.


Go back and finish your secondary school before you come here :lol: 

ODA is not all free money it's low interest loan, buddy. Talking about history and infringement, I wanna ask why you are still using Chinese Characters in your language, how long have you Japs used for it? have you paid for it? 


Forumers let's forgive his ignorance and come back to the train topic. He is not the first sour grape Jap and frankly speaking it's very hard to understand his post, I guess he's using google translation for his English. :lol: 

Just ignore him, period.


----------



## big-dog

[email protected] said:


> 【To big-dog】
> The Japanese government gave 60%+ or more of 30 billion dollars, 18 billion dollars, for nothing to CINA. It will become huge if other assistance is included. Chinese people should kneel down and be thankful to Japanese people. A technical outflow and loss of intellectual property rights reach annual 90 billion, and employment of Japanese people is taken.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------


The 30 bln ODA are not all free grants as I have mentioned. 

The funds are composed of free grants, low-interest yen loans and technical assistance. Free grants make up a small part of the fund. In 2002, they accounted only was 4.24 per cent. 

And Japan, whose domestic interest rate stands at around zero, can nonetheless profit from the low-interest yen loans. 

But if you haggle over the ounces, I would rather calculate the cost of casulaties Japs war criminal commited in WWII, it's far beyond the so-called ODAs.

It's fair to see the Nanking massacre documentary showing in New York theaters last week so the world can know the brutism of the Japanese in World War II.

If you couldn't find this piece of history in your textbook, please go to watch this documentary.

News: Nanking massacre documentary shocks New York audience


----------



## wigo

Okay, Japanese troll.


----------



## HKG

This thread is about rail ,why talkabout war?
If you want to talk about war please start a thread in the other suitable forum!


----------



## HKG

Andrew said:


> I agree with you, but then my perference is for smaller signage on most things. I don't like big logos and I don't like large text.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think these characters are a bit too big and I'm not keen on the style, they look hand painted and I don't think that really fits the image of a new high-tech train. I think smaller, more modern styled characters would work better. That said, they certainly don't look terrible.


I like traditional Chinese writing,they are an art work!


----------



## feifeiinmyname

[email protected] said:


> 13 centuries, also the Chinese and Korea allied forces, two times have invaded Japan. That is the Mongolian Invasions. The japanese of the multitude is killed, gives the shock of the extent where the Japanese government of that time turns over. Also China and Korea, are something which is wanted apologizing to Japan.
> 
> The shinkansen is a motor in all vehicle, as for TGV is a motor in just the vehicle the both ends. As for the full speed of TGV, 571km/h which is recorded in 2007. As for the Shinkansen, 443km/h which is recorded in 1996.


come on my friend, use a language u are good at, your english is killing us. 

Back to the train topic, interior of these trains looks exactly the same with First trains in the UK


----------



## HKG

Sen said:


> and 和谐号，what a weird name.


It's an excellent name!


----------



## Trainman Dave

gaoanyu said:


> I think D25 runs from Beijing to Harbin in 8 hrs and 8 mins (07:20-15:28);
> D26 runs back in 7 hrs and 50mins (13:50-21:40).
> Distance between the two cities is 1248km.
> There are 4 other stops en-route: Qinhuangdao, Shenyang North, Siping, Changchun. First class costs 351RMB, second class costs 281RMB, for singles.
> :cheers:


Thank you for the Info.


----------



## Trainman Dave

[email protected] said:


> The rapid transit railway of Chinese 300km/h introduced the Japanese Sinkansen, technology of "Hayate".
> The Chinese government conceals the fact.


This a quote from one of "hkskylines" chinese press releases



> Our technology is a re-innovation assimilating advanced technologies of foreign countries


In this case the technology involves Sweden, Japan, Germany and Italy. I have known for more than six months that the Shanghai - Nanjing new trains would be built by Kawasaki.


----------



## Tubeman

If anyone makes another off-topic bullshit post abour war or history in this thread they'll be banned


----------



## superchan7

[email protected] said:


> 【To Sen】
> By the way, it introduced in Hong Kong from this year or the next year- maglev type subway is a thing by *Japanese support*.
> 
> KUROKAWA KISYO / 黒川紀章
> KUROKAWA　is the global builder who produced *Metabolism* theory. (Kenzo Tange follower) .


Hong Kong has no plans to introduce a maglev. Where did you get this information? I have never heard it before.


----------



## Jiangwho

CRH 5 . SHENYANGBEI STATION


----------



## Pax Sinica

Your manner and grammar are embarrassing Japan.:no:


----------



## duskdawn

Tubeman said:


> If anyone makes another off-topic bullshit post abour war or history in this thread they'll be banned





[email protected] said:


> China is not based on an idea of the French Revolution such as equality under the law and human rights, and democracy. In the times, Western Europe and Japanese modernistic reason may collide with barbarian Chinese civilization (as Huntington wrote it) from now on. The Earth may be pulled back at the medieval barbarous feudal age by the Chinese hand.


I think now you are qualified to be banned, where's the mod?
BTW, you are giving us a reason to look down upon Japan, isn't it?


----------



## wigo

[email protected] said:


> *big-dog*
> Ancient India discovered 0.


Indian invented the calculus symbles, but not the concept of 0. Other people are not so dump that they need such Indian "invention". 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0_(number)



[email protected] said:


> In the times, Western Europe and Japanese modernistic reason may collide with barbarian Chinese civilization (as Huntington wrote it) from now on. The Earth may be pulled back at the medieval barbarous feudal age by the Chinese hand.


Give me a source, jap, or just your jap invention. :nuts:


----------



## big-dog

> Originally Posted by Tubeman
> If anyone makes another off-topic bullshit post abour war or history in this thread they'll be banned


Where is the mod? All people try to keep silence until this Jap guy jumps out again.


----------



## Tubeman

Tubeman said:


> If anyone makes another off-topic bullshit post abour war or history in this thread they'll be banned


[email protected], its you! :wave:


----------



## Tubeman

I have re-opened this thread due to a request to do so, but the second it goes even slightly off-topic its :lock: again


----------



## Trainman Dave

^^ Thank you. I have learned alot from this thread


----------



## kelvinyang

Within a few years, China will claim the crown of total high speed rail length. Unlike the case of auto expressways which US has total length near that of the rest countries combined, there is no giant country with long high speed rail length now.


----------



## superchan7

Any news on the CRH5 problem? I heard they were all taken out of service due to glitches.


----------



## Kiss the Rain

kelvinyang said:


> Within a few years, China will claim the crown of total high speed rail length. Unlike the case of auto expressways which US has total length near that of the rest countries combined, there is no giant country with long high speed rail length now.


Exactly, that's why i think the chinese government should do more to encourage public transport rather than automobiles and fund way more on developments like subway and high speed rail than highways and roads, we must learn from other countries mistakes.


----------



## big-dog

kelvinyang said:


> Within a few years, China will claim the crown of total high speed rail length. Unlike the case of auto expressways which US has total length near that of the rest countries combined, there is no giant country with long high speed rail length now.


even for expressways, China has a chance to surpass US in the near future. China has already built 45,600km expressways, by the end of this year, China's expressway length will pass 50,000km mark. With a building speed of 5,000km each year, it's only a matter of time.

China can not stop building the roads and develop its auto industry. Automobile industry has been growing to a key element in China's economy. China produced over 7 million cars in 2006, only next to US and Japan. How can the govt. ask people to stop buying cars and manufacturers stop producing them?


----------



## pflo777

just imagine: if the number of cars/resident is as high in China as it is in the US or western europe, you would have around 700 million cars in China.....
Now how many roads do you need for that???

And how many HSR-Lines to prevent the country from this final traffic-hell?


----------



## zergcerebrates

pflo777 said:


> just imagine: if the number of cars/resident is as high in China as it is in the US or western europe, you would have around 700 million cars in China.....
> Now how many roads do you need for that???
> 
> And how many HSR-Lines to prevent the country from this final traffic-hell?


As they say, China will suck the world dry. Lets hope China continues to built more mass transportation so people won't buy as much cars. I bet the future railway map and metro maps of China would be scary.


----------



## big-dog

*some 4.18 speed-raising pictures*

6003km rail reaches above 200km/h, covers 17 provinces


----------



## Trainman Dave

big-dog said:


> 6003km rail reaches above 200km/h, covers 17 provinces


Very Interesting map. Thank you    

Could somebody please translate the anotation box to inform us of the meaning of the Pink, Black and Green lines on the map

I hope that this map is published again at December 2007


----------



## Knuddel Knutsch

considering how huge china is this map is ---well---showing that still a lot has to be done.
I see one big problem: usually trains are able to compete with aircraft at distances up to 800 km, if you take TGV or ICE trains, that go up to 350 km/h in regular service. If the distances are bigger, the aircraft is unbeatable faster.
Looking at how big china is, it will need a system "above" all that HSR.

A businessman wont take a train form Shanghai to Beiging even if it goes 300 or 350, because then you`ll still travel 3-3.5 hours compared to an hour by plane.
And Shanghai-Beijing is not even the longest distance in China, its acutally only mediocre.....

I cant understand why they dont build maglev trains at a large scale.
Bejing Shangha in 1:45h, at 550km/h with todays technology......
And they wouldnt need to buy planes from the US and EU and Oil from Iran.....


----------



## big-dog

Trainman Dave said:


> Very Interesting map. Thank you
> 
> Could somebody please translate the anotation box to inform us of the meaning of the Pink, Black and Green lines on the map
> 
> I hope that this map is published again at December 2007


That table's translation:

Speed Length coverage
250km/h(Pink) 846km
>200km/h(Black) 6,003km
>160km/h(Green) 14,000km
>120km/h(Green) 22,000km


----------



## big-dog

Knuddel Knutsch said:


> considering how huge china is this map is ---well---showing that still a lot has to be done.
> I see one big problem: usually trains are able to compete with aircraft at distances up to 800 km, if you take TGV or ICE trains, that go up to 350 km/h in regular service. If the distances are bigger, the aircraft is unbeatable faster.
> Looking at how big china is, it will need a system "above" all that HSR.
> 
> A businessman wont take a train form Shanghai to Beiging even if it goes 300 or 350, because then you`ll still travel 3-3.5 hours compared to an hour by plane.
> And Shanghai-Beijing is not even the longest distance in China, its acutally only mediocre.....
> 
> I cant understand why they dont build maglev trains at a large scale.
> Bejing Shangha in 1:45h, at 550km/h with todays technology......
> And they wouldnt need to buy planes from the US and EU and Oil from Iran.....


I would rather take a 3.5-hour CRH rather than a 1.5-hour flight, considering the time travelling to/from airport, luggage checking-in/out, airplane takingoff/landing and the lousy flight meal.


----------



## big-dog

*more pics*

New CRH









D96 Nanchang-Hangzhou; Mom and daughter on D532, Beijing-Tianjin
















D460 Shanghai-Suzhou
















Revolving seats and Diaper changing
















Microwave and seats
















Restroom
















Newspapers and dining carriage


----------



## Trainman Dave

Knuddel Knutsch said:


> considering how huge china is this map is ---well---showing that still a lot has to be done.
> I see one big problem: usually trains are able to compete with aircraft at distances up to 800 km, if you take TGV or ICE trains, that go up to 350 km/h in regular service. If the distances are bigger, the aircraft is unbeatable faster.
> Looking at how big china is, it will need a system "above" all that HSR.
> 
> A businessman wont take a train form Shanghai to Beiging even if it goes 300 or 350, because then you`ll still travel 3-3.5 hours compared to an hour by plane.
> And Shanghai-Beijing is not even the longest distance in China, its acutally only mediocre.....
> 
> I cant understand why they dont build maglev trains at a large scale.
> Bejing Shangha in 1:45h, at 550km/h with todays technology......
> And they wouldnt need to buy planes from the US and EU and Oil from Iran.....


Judging behavior in China by western standards can be quite misleading. I agree that the rich chinese businessmen will probably fly in the same style as western businessmen but there is a vast traveling population of government employees will probably all travel by train because it is so much cheaper. I am reminded of a comment made to me when I was on a technology transfer mission in china almost twenty years ago and I was surprised at the long rollout schedules for our project. The project leader said


> Remember, we have to have train 1,000,000 civil servants first!


They would all have traveled by train to their training centers.

As to MagLev for long distances at 550 km/h. That solution will probably not feasible in China and widespread speed increases in rail travel to more than 250 km/h are also fairly unlikely in China. The problem is energy!!!! During my last visit to China, ten years ago, we were briefed that China needed five more projects with the generation capacity of the Yangtze river dam just too keep up with the growing demand for energy.

Remember that the power required to over come aerodynamic drag increases with the cube of the speed of the train, irrespective of whether it is MagLev or steel wheel on rail. I suspect that the Chinese railways will be very cautious at the rate of spread of high speed trains beyond 200 km/h.


----------



## Trainman Dave

Thank You for the translation, Big-dog


----------



## big-dog

Trainman Dave said:


> Thank You for the translation, Big-dog


You are welcome. 

There's a cooler CRH map on CRH map


----------



## pflo777

^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ 

thanks for the map---btw, the Shanghai Hangzhou line is missing...is it because they are undecided about the Transrapid there?


----------



## Knuddel Knutsch

burning fuel, like on domestic flights is also an energy issue.

You are right, that the main problem of HSR is the air drag above 250 km/h, but the other question is, where the enregy comes from.
A high speed train uses about 5 MW energy at cruising speed. (300-350)
Thats as much as the biggest wind power generater from the german firm repower produces... 
IMO it would be much better to have a big windpark with 100 of these and HSR than domestic flights, which are known for their unefficiency...
But your right, maybe 550 km/h is not really necessary, when it comes to the broad mass of people....


----------



## Trainman Dave

^^ ^^ I agree that Domestic avaiation is not fuel efficient anywhere! China has hugh sources of wind power in the deserts to the north and west. However they need the power in the south and east and the problem lies with the transmission grid which is so weak in China that they are transporting coal by train from the coal fields to power stations located near the energy consummers.

My suspicion is that the availablity of aviation gas may actually be constraining the growth of air travel in China.


----------



## Trainman Dave

big-dog said:


> You are welcome.
> 
> There's a cooler CRH map on CRH map


Thank you. Unfortunately I am away from a high speed connection so I have not seen this map yet. Hopefully next week


----------



## Trainman Dave

pflo777 said:


> btw, the Shanghai Hangzhou line is missing...is it because they are undecided about the Transrapid there?


Absolutely not! The Shanghai <> Hangzhou is the first stage of the Shanghai <> Guangzhou high speed connection so, no matter what happens with MagLev, there will always be Shanghai <> Hangzhou railway line operating at a minimum of 200 km/h


----------



## Jiangwho

*Train travels without CRH *
*Yangzhou rail station*












































































*Taizhou rail station*






































































































































pics by bwm
from www.hasea.com


----------



## Trainman Dave

^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ 
VVVV, I have a moderately fast internet connection and your last post took more 10 minutes to down load. Please compress these images or delete the less important images.

Where are Yangzhou and Taizhou?


----------



## Trainman Dave

Its still down loading!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please respect those of us with less than very high speed internet connections

You could delete 2 out of 3 of these photos and provide very useful info without tying up our internet connections


----------



## big-dog

Trainman Dave said:


> ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
> VVVV, I have a moderately fast internet connection and your last post took more 10 minutes to down load. Please compress these images or delete the less important images.
> 
> Where are Yangzhou and Taizhou?


Agreed, VVVV this is a CRH thread, please post more CRH pictures. Thx.


----------



## zergcerebrates

Hmm. . . the interior of these old Chinese trains look better than I expected.


----------



## Jiangwho

Trainman Dave said:


> ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
> VVVV, I have a moderately fast internet connection and your last post took more 10 minutes to down load. Please compress these images or delete the less important images.


Excuse me. I have just seen your request. I have deleted half of the pics. hope you can see the rests now.



Trainman Dave said:


> Where are Yangzhou and Taizhou?


in the map you are able to find both yangzhou and taizhou nearby Nanjing
http://cms.westport.k12.ct.us/cmslmc/mystuff/China/yangzhou.htm




big-dog said:


> Agreed, VVVV this is a CRH thread, please post more CRH pictures. Thx.


IMO This is not only a CRH thread. the sixth rail speed raise is not only about CRH, but some other type trains as well. sure CRH is a series of stars in this event. I will try to post some CRH pics. cheers.


----------



## superchan7

zergcerebrates said:


> Hmm. . . the interior of these old Chinese trains look better than I expected.


They are renovated. Also, production of conventional passenger cars continues, so the newer ones will have better interiors.


----------



## kelvinyang

Knuddel Knutsch said:


> Democracy is like having Sex:
> If its good, its very good.
> If its not so good its still good.
> 
> John Kenneth Galbraith, Economist.


Lovers want to have sex.
Rapists also want to have sex.

Kelvin Yang, Scientist


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Trainman Dave

big-dog said:


> You are welcome.
> 
> There's a cooler CRH map on CRH map


I have been trying to display this map with out success.

I have eliminated connection speed and ".swf" format. I suspect that the trouble may well be the character set.

Could you save it, without animation, as a .jpg?


----------



## big-dog

Trainman Dave said:


> I have been trying to display this map with out success.
> 
> I have eliminated connection speed and ".swf" format. I suspect that the trouble may well be the character set.
> 
> Could you save it, without animation, as a .jpg?


It's an animation so I don't know how to save it to .jpg  , the url is

http://channel.rednet.cn/news/xw/yudan/tisu1.swf

Can other guys access it?


----------



## zergcerebrates

China should jump the tech ladder on trains. Instead of going after 300kmph they should perhaps consult the French on building a 500Kmph train.


----------



## Trainman Dave

zergcerebrates said:


> China should jump the tech ladder on trains. Instead of going after 300kmph they should perhaps consult the French on building a 500Kmph train.


Where will all the energy come from?


----------



## gaoanyu

Trainman Dave said:


> ^^ ^^ ^^
> I think the Dalian <> Yantai sea ferries began operations 2006. The route is being developed by Zhongtie Bohai Railway Ferry Co who plan to build as many a six ferry boats.
> 
> The Ferry route is about 150 km which is a little long for a tunnel in the immediate future


Some photos for the Yantai-Dalian train-on-ferry operations :cheers:


----------



## zergcerebrates

Trainman Dave said:


> Where will all the energy come from?


Uh. . . . electricity what else?


----------



## Andrew

zergcerebrates said:


> China should jump the tech ladder on trains. Instead of going after 300kmph they should perhaps consult the French on building a 500Kmph train.


Well if they want a train that can actually go 500kmph then they need to speak to the Germans not the French. The French high speed train record set by the new TGV is a one off, achieved by the use of a highly modified trainset. There is absolutely *no* prospect of a 500kmph high speed rail service using wheel on rail technology. The only way it can be achieved as a crusing speed in a regular service is through the use of maglev technology. The only commercial high speed maglev service currently running is the transrapid link in Shanghai.


----------



## hkskyline

I don't think conventional track can sustain 500 km/h, so whether or not to invest in a separate rail infrastructure for these super trains comes to question.


----------



## Trainman Dave

zergcerebrates said:


> Uh. . . . electricity what else?


China has very severe problems generating and distributing electricity so electricity is not a simple answer :bash:.

To double the speed of a train or a MagLev vehical from 250 km/h to 500 km/h will require eight times the energy consumption hno: mg:  .

Japan and German may be able to afford this type on energy consumption but Chine will be very cautious!


----------



## Trainman Dave

gaoanyu said:


> Some photos for the Yantai-Dalian train-on-ferry operations :cheers:


Thank you for the pictures :cheers: .

Do you know how long is the ferry boat?


----------



## z0rg

Trainman Dave said:


> ^^ ^^ ^^
> I think the Dalian <> Yantai sea ferries began operations 2006. The route is being developed by Zhongtie Bohai Railway Ferry Co who plan to build as many a six ferry boats.
> 
> The Ferry route is about 150 km which is a little long for a tunnel in the immediate future


Well, they are supposed to be planning a tunnel/bridge link. I think there is a chain of islands along the strait? It could be useful for a bridge project.


----------



## Trainman Dave

z0rg said:


> Well, they are supposed to be planning a tunnel/bridge link. I think there is a chain of islands along the strait? It could be useful for a bridge project.


Good catch.
I had never noticed that chain of islands before hno: .


----------



## Wisarut

Dear VVVV,

Could you please explain about the color code on the High Speed track in the mainland China ....


----------



## Jiangwho

^^ 
hello Wisarut
Those colored lines only present different routes from one city to another that involved in the sixth rail speed raise event.


----------



## gaoanyu

> Do you know how long is the ferry boat?


Zhongtie Bohai No.1:
Length: 182.6m
Width: 24.8m
Design speed: 33.34km/hr
It carries a 50-car 80t train, 50 20t heavy trucks, 25 cars and 480 passengers per journey.
I guess the train will be divided.

Source: Shangdong news
http://www2.sdnews.com.cn/news/shizheng/2006-7/21_262539.html


----------



## Trainman Dave

Thank you


----------



## Jiangwho

*Changbei mountain* 



































photo by laomao
from www.hasea.com



*CRH 1*












*CRH 5*

















photo by leo and k54
from www.railway-club.com


----------



## zergcerebrates

Ah finally some pics for CRH5. Must they color all trains white and blue? They should color it differently so it feels like there are multiple kinds of train types like in Europe or Japan.


----------



## superchan7

Ha! Like the fake phones "feel" like the name brand. :lol:


----------



## UD2

uniformaty (if this word exists) is good in this case. colourful trains will mess up the system.


----------



## mrmoopt

zergcerebrates said:


> Ah finally some pics for CRH5. Must they color all trains white and blue? They should color it differently so it feels like there are multiple kinds of train types like in Europe or Japan.


I think it looks more clean with a uniformed livery. Even the Shinkansen did it for a while before each group decided on their own liveries.


----------



## Sen

The different Shinkansen are operated by indepdent companies, they probably want to develop their own "brand identity".
CRH trains should have the same livery, since right now they are trying to promote this brand, but they should have tried something more lively, and esp get rid of that ugly font.


----------



## UD2

actually the 3 characters on the front were added to the trains after the letter CRH effectively spelled out acronyms that named the trains "Shame".

however unforunate it is, the acronyms for the new characters added ended up pronouncing "Blood Drinking".

Chinese is a great language.


----------



## zergcerebrates

UD2 said:


> actually the 3 characters on the front were added to the trains after the letter CRH effectively spelled out acronyms that named the trains "Shame".
> 
> however unforunate it is, the acronyms for the new characters added ended up pronouncing "Blood Drinking".
> 
> Chinese is a great language.


Hmm I don't get it. Can you use pingyin and give me an example how CRH becamse Shame?


----------



## japanese001

[email protected] said:


> 【To Sen】
> It is a mere fictitious product that Mongolians omitted construction of a ship. China on the present continent constructed with South Korea, and invaded Japan twice, and historical truth slaughtered many Japanese. It cannot blot out. Now, in China, the extreme right-wing education by the Communist Party is performed, and extreme right-wing thinking has covered the China whole country. The Chinese government should stop it, should teach children having slaughtered Japanese people, and should consider compensation as an apology. You should consider compensation as an apology in Vietnam, Tibet, a Uighur, the Korean Peninsula, etc.
> 
> 【To big-dog】
> The Japanese government gave 60%+ or more of 30 billion dollars, 18 billion dollars, for nothing to CINA. It will become huge if other assistance is included. Chinese people should kneel down and be thankful to Japanese people. A technical outflow and loss of intellectual property rights reach annual 90 billion, and employment of Japanese people is taken.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> By the way, it introduced in Hong Kong from this year or the next year- maglev type subway is a thing by *Japanese support*.
> 
> KUROKAWA KISYO / 黒川紀章
> KUROKAWA　is the global builder who produced *Metabolism* theory. (Kenzo Tange follower) .



It is not wrong that you say. China must admit that it is wrong.


----------



## duskdawn

zergcerebrates said:


> Hmm I don't get it. Can you use pingyin and give me an example how CRH becamse Shame?


Chi Ru Hao/耻辱号/恥辱號
The first two characters means shame or humiliation. The last is usually added when you give a ship, train or plane a name.


----------



## UD2

duskdawn said:


> Chi Ru Hao/耻辱号/恥辱號
> The first two characters means shame or humiliation. The last is usually added when you give a ship, train or plane a name.


and the three characters on the trains now 和谐号 (he xie hao)，short forms as HXH, is very closely related in pronouncation to 喝血号 (he xie hao). =-)


----------



## superchan7

japanese001 said:


> It is not wrong that you say. China must admit that it is wrong.


He said Chinese should kneel and thank Japan.

Japan should kneel and thank the Western world for all those technologies that they gave to Japan's industrialization.

Chinese railways paid for the trains and tech transfer; they didn't steal it. The only thing they did not do is mention the Japanese origin on the "official" news channel. But everyone knows already because of the online discussion forums. This is just the Chinese govt. being naive.


----------



## UD2

going off topic for a bit.

That is not entirely true. Using the Chinese navy as an example. Did you the first number in the three digit ship numbering system indicates the class of the ship and the second number indicates the fleet that it belongs to? 

If you did, many other people sure did not. But I, along with every other military forumers knows this. 

I guess my point is that you know the fact that it's a Japanese train because you're on a railway forum, and you also have knowladge regarding the current Japanese train designs. However, the majority of the Chinese public are not aware of the fact that the CRH2 looks identical to the Japanese E2. 

it doesn't really matter if all of us knew that the train was from Japan, as long as the majority of the Chinese population doesn't think so. 

and plus, the trains are actually assembled in China with majority of the components locally made. so they arn't actually lieing after all.


----------



## gakei

CRH2









































































Link: http://www.gakei.com/crw/crh2.htm


----------



## Sen

superchan7 said:


> He said Chinese should kneel and thank Japan.
> 
> Japan should kneel and thank the Western world for all those technologies that they gave to Japan's industrialization.
> 
> Chinese railways paid for the trains and tech transfer; they didn't steal it. The only thing they did not do is mention the Japanese origin on the "official" news channel. But everyone knows already because of the online discussion forums. This is just the Chinese govt. being naive.


No, he is saying China should apologize to Japan for the failed invasion of Japan under Mongol army during 14th century. :bash: 
Like I said, if Chinese labourer didn't build faulty ships intentionally, Japan would have been conquered by Mongols.
some people's idiocy are beyond my belief.


----------



## Andrew

Sen said:


> No, he is saying China should apologize to Japan for the failed invasion of Japan under Mongol army during 14th century. :bash:
> Like I said, if Chinese labourer didn't build faulty ships intentionally, Japan would have been conquered by Mongols.
> some people's idiocy are beyond my belief.


This is just getting old, and more and more rediculous. It's one thing complaining about events from 60 years ago but no one cares what happened 600 years ago!!!


----------



## forzagrifo

Sen said:


> The different Shinkansen are operated by indepdent companies, they probably want to develop their own "brand identity".
> CRH trains should have the same livery, since right now they are trying to promote this brand, but they should have tried something more lively, and esp get rid of that ugly font.


The guy that chose that font should be executed by the firing squad.

Who is he? A hermit engineer in his 80s?


----------



## Yinni_Huaren

CRH1 Specification :











CRH2 Specification :











CRH3 Specification :











CRH5 Specification :


----------



## cold

*Just ignore the Japs*

Most of them have low-self esteem. 

Great quotes..

"In the '80s, when Japan was riding the crest of the wave, there was a great deal of hubris and sense of superiority," 

"Forecasts were that the Japanese economy would take over the US by around about now ... Then the bubble burst and the last dozen or so years have seen ... the collapse of the economy, the decline of many hitherto global champion firms ... the unexpected and spectacular rise of China, shunting Japan to the sidelines, [and] the total lack of support for Tokyo's bid for a permanent seat at the UN Security Council."
_
"Japanese nationalism is defensive and reflecting a growing sense of uncertainty, insecurity and *inferiority*,"_---Jean-Pierre Lehmann


----------



## KB

Wow!

They look cool.


----------



## Lightness

I really hope this excellent thread won't be ruined by chauvinistic pigs.


----------



## zergcerebrates

*Beijing Airport Express Railway*

*Beijing Capital International Airport Link's ART MK II Vehicles Debut in Changchun*



















On Sep. 7, the first train, which comprises 4 ART (Advanced Rapid Transit) MK II vehicles, that is to be used for Beijing Capital International Airport Link connecting Dongzhimen Station to the Beijing Capital International Airport using Bombardier's ART technology made its debut in Changchun.

In March 2006, Bombardier received an order from Changchun Railway Vehicles (CRC) as part of a contract awarded to CRC by the Beijing Dongzhimen Airport Express Rail Co. Ltd. for the supply of 40 ART MK II vehicles for the Beijing Capital International Airport Link.

It is known that Bombardier participates in project management and is responsible for vehicle systems engineering and integration, design and manufacture of the bogies as well as the propulsion and braking systems while Changchun Railway Vehicles (CRC) manufactures the 40 ART MK II vehicles.

Once fully operational, the airport link will serve four different stations: Dongzhimen, Sanyuanqiao, Beijing Capital International Airport's Terminal 2 and Terminal 3. Passengers will be able to interchange trains conveniently at the Dongzhimen and Sanyuanqiao Stations, where connections to the 2008 Olympic village will be available.

In addition, a special lounge at the Dongzhimen Station will allow passengers to initiate flight-boarding procedures before arriving at the airport as well.


----------



## zergcerebrates

hmm i think i posted at the wrong forum.


----------



## Clashman

*Tianjin, China, Railway Station Expansion/Renovation*

All pics here were taken from this thread:

http://www.bohaibbs.org/thread-13831-1-1.html


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## Clashman




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## Clashman




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## Clashman




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## Clashman




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## Clashman




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## Clashman




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## Clashman




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## Clashman




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## Clashman




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## Clashman




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## zergcerebrates

Wow pretty cool project. Its amazing how these people can manage the project under all the mess.


----------



## The Cebuano Exultor

*@ Clashman*

OMG! That's one huge extension/expansion project. With this kind of major face-lifting, I'm pretty positive Tianjin's Railway Station will not only be one of the largest in the world but also be one of the most modern!  :uh: :applause: :banana: epper:


----------



## big-dog

wow, subway 2,3 8 station, Beijing-Tianjin express rail station, huge flyovers and bridges, I'm really amazed how they can finish the project in 301 days (as mentioned in the pics)!

btyw, anybody has the news of Tianjin airport expension? I heard the project is almost finished.


----------



## Gaeus

It look nice but anyone got a better pic of the actual render besides the one in the billboard?


----------



## z0rg

What a pity you don't post more often, Clashman.


----------



## Yardmaster

Amazing. I've known a couple of people from Tianjin, and I was almost induced to work there: I'd love to see an overall synopsis of this.


----------



## zergcerebrates

I really wish China should stop rushing their projects, and I believe they want to finish this by Olympics. Projects that are rushed tend to be overlooked in certain things like Quality. Hopefully it won't happen to this station.


----------



## Clashman

Well, the train station project needed to get done. They need it for the new high-speed rail line between Beijing and Tianjin. Also, this will be the the main intersecting station for the 3 subway lines currently under construction right now, (2,3, and the downtown extension of the Binhai line). While things are definitely being fast-tracked for the Olympics, the new Train station was kind of the lynch-pin for a host of projects going on at the moment, and needs to get finished for them to work. 

That said, Tianjin definitely gets it's share of short-cuts in projects, and I sure hope that doesn't happen here, (I saw a game from the Women's World Cup at the new Olympic stadium, and while some things about it are great, the speakers sounded a little underpowered, the seats felt like they would break easily, there were no electric hand-dryers in the bathroom, and there were some absolutely idiotic choices about some of the retail locations in the stadium. All that said, it isn't a bad stadium, and there are definitely things I like about it, but it's got it's share of problems, too).


----------



## asif iqbal

i cant belive the scale of this construction site, this is mad! wow man


----------



## Clashman

I should have added that my big complaint about the reconstruction was that they built the temporary rail site on the east side of town just a few km down the way from the old station, but further from the city center. This makes it quite a bit further for me personally to get to the station. I don't understand why they didn't build one in the Southwest corner of the city. It's the fastest-growing area of the city proper and is the only area that isn't served well by the existing stations. The temporary station would have had a lot more use there, and would have been able to make the transition to become a "permanent" station much easier. Once the new station is completed, I don't see the temporary station having all that much use.


----------



## parker941

i love tianjin, i love 东站！


----------



## M.Schwerdtner

holy shit ... i can believve whats going on there, i went there 1 year ago but didnt seen the whole area from the streetside ... unbelievible. ... sometimes i think, in china is everything possible.


----------



## big-dog

*updates 11.29*

from draco-sky, skyscrapers.cn

It's a hugh project.


----------



## foxmulder

It is like an airport massive


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## zergcerebrates

Dam, they're fast!


----------



## big-dog

*2008.1.12*

http://news.sina.com.cn/c/p/2008-01-14/081214736788.shtml


----------



## Ainnur

Wow!!!! They are working really fast there!. I was in Tianjin one year ago and they had just began with the works. Has anybody got any render of the station? Anyway, I guess that we can almost see the final aspect of it. Is there an official date for the opening of the line and for restarting the Tianjin-Beijing services from here?


----------



## binhai

^^

Yes, the Tianjin-Beijing HSR starts August 1, and normal rail is still passing through this station, just in a different part.


----------



## megha salunkhe

*China Railway Construction planning IPO*

China Railway Construction Corporation is planning initial public offerings of shares on the Shanghai and Hong Kong exchanges, state-run media reported Sunday. 
One of the nation's largest road and rail contractors, the company aims to issue 2.8 billion shares in Shanghai in an application expected to be considered by Chinese regulators on Wednesday, Xinhua news agency said. 

read more.... www.projectscommunity.com


----------



## Ainnur

*CRH2 trains*

Here I am, back in Tianjin. Just one question to know if someone can help me. I have heard from Spain ( it was in the news) that the CRH2 trains from Tianjin to Beijing have reached the average number of passengers expected for this line. I would like to go to Beijing using one of this trains, but I have some questions.
Where do I have to take these trains? In the provisional trains station? And do you know the codes for these trains? Are these D532, D534? Is there a special place for buying the tickets for these trains? 
Too many questions, I know...
Thanks in advance!


----------



## thekiller

*Beijing - Shanghai Railway*

Earlier someone suggested that the beijing - shanghai railway deserves a new thread. I second that! So here it is!


----------



## snow is red

New account for new thread ?


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## pflo777

so if you open up a new topic and a new accoutn, you could also post some new pics, how about that?

Or is that up to our "old" chinese friends?

I would be quite happy about as much U/C pics as possible of this mindblowing project.


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## honwai1983

*Start of Beijing - Shanghai High Speed Railway construction*

http://v.ku6.com/show/SW5W11qtX5paW9Mo.html

News - announcement Start of Beijing - Shanghai High Speed Railway construction

The video is putonghua with Chinese


----------



## honwai1983

*Information*










Translations form photo:

Railway department announce that- Beijing - Shanghai High Speed Railway open in 2010

Railway length- about 1318Km
Design speed - 350Km/h
Initial operating speed -300Km/h
Total 21 stations

Total journey time: About 5 hours
Single line capacity: 80 Million /year










After 10 years of evaluation and research, the high-speed railway between Beijing and Shanghai is finally under construction, according to Liu Zhijun, Minister of Railways, in Beijing.

With a total length of 1,318 km, the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway has a planned investment of 186.5 billion yuan ($24.87 billion) and is expected to complete for operation in 2011 after 52 months of construction. This realization of the high-speed railway meant to alleviate the pressure of north-south transportation in the coastal area of east China. At present, the density of railway transport between Beijing and Shanghai is four times the country's average and is always in a state of overload that cannot satisfy demand.

Now, preliminary preparations hav been launched and some bridges, such as the Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge, are under construction. By the end of this year, construction of some key roadbeds, bridges and tunnels will commence.

Independent technology

According to the Ministry of Railways (MOR), the design life of the high-speed railway between Beijing and Shanghai will be 100 years, with the maximum speed of 350 km per hour and an operating speed of 300 km per hour. Adopting a wheel/rail approach, the technology for the railway will be largely dependent on Chinese technology. Lines, bridges, tunnels and culverts will be constructed with completely independent technology standards and intellectual property developed by China.

Since the early 1990s, when China first proposed to build this high-speed railway, the international community has paid close attention to its development. Japan, France and Germany have been embroiled in intensive competition over construction contracts for the railway. Leaders of the three countries have all tried to persuade China to adopt their technologies, and fierce debate ensued in China over whether to use the wheel/rail approach of Japan and France, or the magnetic levitation train from Germany.

"China is completely capable of building the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway on its own," said Wang Yueming, researcher at the China Academy of Railway Sciences (CARS).

According to Wang, China is capable of manufacturing locomotives with their speed surpassing 350 km per hour, and there will be no problems for trains to be used in the high-speed railway. The Beijing-Shanghai train will adopt viaducts, preventing people from approaching the railway. This measure will save land and impose no influence on ground transport, ensuring the safety and the speed of the railway.

On September 12, construction of the National Engineering Laboratory of High-Speed Railway Systems under the CARS was approved by the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC). This laboratory, focused on testing the reliability, safety, comfort, energy usage and environmental performance of high-speed railway systems, will establish testing and verification facilities for the comprehensive performance of high-speed railways, and create a support platform for relevant construction projects.

The Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway will also adopt overseas high-speed railway technologies. According to Liu Zhijun, domestic technologies will account for 70 percent, while imported components to be assembled 20 percent and imported complete sets of components 10 percent. Imported technologies will mainly be used in signal systems.

Multiple financing channels

Investment of 90 billion yuan ($12 billion) has so far been approved for the project--half of what is needed for completion.

Wang Qingyun, Director of the Department of Communications of the NDRC, says that the state will establish the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway Co. Ltd. to actively explore market-oriented financing and absorb private and foreign capital, though Chinese investors will be the controlling shareholders.

He Huawu, Chief Engineer of the MOR, says that the enthusiasm aroused by the construction of the railway will attract diversified capital from both domestic and foreign capital markets so as to realize multiple investors, financing channels and financing methods.

That financing has already begun. In April this year, Taikang Asset Management Corp. was entrusted to issue 10 billion yuan ($1.33 billion) of three-year bonds used for construction of the railway with the MOR as the issuer. Twelve insurance companies purchased all of these bonds.

Established in May 2006 in Beijing, Taikang Asset Management Corp. is a state-owned insurance assets management corporation. During the construction period, insurance companies will invest in the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway with debt investment. After the project is completed, the debt may be changed into shares for the railway operating company.

Sources of capital

The money invested in the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway will mainly be used for creation of fixed and mobile facilities and the electronic control system. Of the three major investment fields, investment in fixed facilities will account for over 40 percent, while that in mobile facilities and electronic control systems will make up more than 50 percent.

Since fixed facilities involve construction of bridges, railway beds, tunnels and railway stations, suppliers of related construction materials such as cement, stone materials, iron and steel, non-ferrous metals and plastics, as well as equipment like tracklayers and grabs, will benefit greatly from the undertaking.

Mobile facilities, including trains and components, will bring large orders to the manufacturing industry and companies engaged in locomotive production. Iron and steel processing and related component processing will see abundant profits.

Construction of electronic control systems involves utilization of computer hardware and software technologies, high-end telecommunications equipment and a large amount of cables and fiber optics. Suppliers in these industries will also benefit.

In March this year, Klaus Kleinfeld, former chief executive officer of Siemens, disclosed that his company had secured a contract to supply signal technologies to the railway with a total value of several hundred million euros.

Suzhou Dafang Special Purpose Vehicle Manufacturing Co. Ltd., a private company in Jiangsu Province, also obtained a large order of over 10 million yuan to supply dual-use transporters (road and railway) for the project.

Positive impacts

The high-speed railway between Beijing and Shanghai, running through the municipalities of Beijing, Tianjin and Shanghai and the four provinces of Hebei, Shandong, Anhui and Jiangsu, connects two large economic areas of China: the Bohai rim economic sphere and the Yangtze River economic zone. As growing economic bases with rapid development, these areas are not only the driving force for China's economic development, but are also at the forefront of China's opening-up and participation in international economic competition.

When completed, the high-speed railway, to be devoted to passenger transport, will ease the traffic pressure between Beijing and Shanghai. The existing Beijing-Shanghai Railway will be converted to freight transport. After going into operation, the high-speed trains between the two cities are expected to transport more than 80 million passengers each year.

According to He Huawu, the high-speed railway will greatly enhance the handling capacity of the present Beijing-Shanghai Railway, allowing it to transport over 130 million tons of freight annually.

After completion, traveling time between Beijing and Shanghai will be shortened from nine hours to five hours. During the early period of operation, the interval between trains is set at four minutes, and it will be shortened to three minutes at the peak time. Each train will be able to carry 1,000-2,000 passengers, and there will be 110-120 round trains running each day. This development may create a threat to air carriers between the two cities, since train tickets are much cheaper than airfare. Plus, considering the time it takes to get to the airport and check in, traveling by air doesn't save much more time than a high-speed train.


----------



## AR1182

Is the Beijing-Tianjin high speed line (the one that is supposed to enter service this year) going to be part of the Beijing-Shanghai high speed line, or will there be two separate lines between Beijing and Tianjin, one of them continuing to Shanghai?


----------



## thekiller

The Beijing-Tianjin is a subsection of the Beijing-Shanghai line.


----------



## honwai1983

I heard that Beijing-Tianjin high speed line(is high speed local line between 2 cities) is separated to Beijing - Shanghai Railway. I am looking for the related article.


----------



## foxmulder

nice article, thanks honwai1983.

I am eager to see construction pictures


----------



## honwai1983

foxmulder said:


> nice article, thanks honwai1983.
> 
> I am eager to see construction pictures


I am looking for such photo since the construction is announced two weeks ago.


----------



## thekiller

Since Beijing - Tianjin Line is a subsection of the Beijing - Shanghai line, here is a related update!











5月9日，首批下线的国产“和谐号”动车组试验列车飞驰在京津城际铁路上，运行时速最高达到每小时350公里，创出了国内铁路运行速度之最。


Translation: the trains that will be used for the beijing - tianjin line as well as the beijing - shanghai line have broken domestic railway record, traveling at a speed of 350km per hr (about 218 mp).


----------



## honwai1983

thekiller said:


> Since Beijing - Tianjin Line is a subsection of the Beijing - Shanghai line, here is a related update!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5月9日，首批下线的国产“和谐号”动车组试验列车飞驰在京津城际铁路上，运行时速最高达到每小时350公里，创出了国内铁路运行速度之最。
> 
> 
> Translation: the trains that will be used for the beijing - tianjin line as well as the beijing - shanghai line have broken domestic railway record, traveling at a speed of 350km per hr (about 218 mp).



Excuse me, please provide the relative information to prove that Beijing - Tianjin Line is a subsection of the Beijing - Shanghai line.

According to the forum in www.hasea.com , many net man said that Beijing- Tianjin is a local line between Beijing and Tianjin (The station is so close to the city center) and the stations of Beijing shanghai high speed railway is so far away form the city center.









(Please PM me if you want the drawing between Beijing and Tianjin)

From the drawing, The left side of 2 lines is Beijing, the right side of the red line is Tianjin north station and the end side of the blue line is Tianjin West Station.

Red line is Beijing - Tianjin Line and Blue line is Beijing - Shanghai high speed railway. 
Beijing - Tianjin Line will add stops between Beijing and Tianjin and will be expended to Tianjin Port.


I live in Hong Kong, I am also looking for the between guangzhou - hongkong High speed railway.


----------



## ChinaHighspeedRail

*WenZhou Station*


----------



## ChinaHighspeedRail

*TaiYuan Station*


----------



## ChinaHighspeedRail

*HangZhou East Station*


----------



## ChinaHighspeedRail

*YueYang Station*


----------



## ChinaHighspeedRail

*ZhengZhou Station*


----------



## ChinaHighspeedRail

*NanTong Station*


----------



## elfabyanos

:drool:


----------



## Knuddel Knutsch

congratulations to China for these great stations.

The US doesnt even have ONE new, modern station like that...


----------



## Bitxofo

Stations like airports!
:eek2:


----------



## Cristovão471

One word: Wow.


This is pretty gross/tacky interior design work though (IMO)


----------



## Knuddel Knutsch

ChinaHighspeedRail said:


> *QingDao Station Will be operate during 2008 Beijing Olympics*



is the Quingdao Station a reconstruction/renovation of a old station, or is it a completely new station, that just looks as if its "old"?( not in terms of technology, but in terms of style)


----------



## wonwiin

I like that many stations incorporate traditional chinese architecture. It sets them apart from the international style you find almost everywhere today and is so exchangeable.


----------



## cees

i like them all,,....but most i think the QingDao station, because of the use of those old buildings, are those buildings being part of the station, or is it just renovated surroundings, seems like a great innovative design for preserving the old, and building the new


----------



## bhopalus

wow this is awesome. how are these being constructed? private parties? govt? PPP?

in india they're trying to achieve this through the PPP model. But obviously it'll take much longer to achieve this level in India.

China's infrastructure is godly...


----------



## thekiller

does anyone have any updates on the construction of beijing South railway station? photos would be nice! Thanks!


----------



## zergcerebrates

cristobal_underscore said:


> One word: Wow.
> 
> 
> This is pretty gross/tacky interior design work though (IMO)


I think thats just a meeting room of some sort.


----------



## zergcerebrates

Nice stations btw, many of them are quite unique and original.


----------



## Nozumi 300

Knuddel Knutsch said:


> is the Quingdao Station a reconstruction/renovation of a old station, or is it a completely new station, that just looks as if its "old"?( not in terms of technology, but in terms of style)


i think its being renovated, remember that this cities has german influences


----------



## drunkenmunkey888

Knuddel Knutsch said:


> is the Quingdao Station a reconstruction/renovation of a old station, or is it a completely new station, that just looks as if its "old"?( not in terms of technology, but in terms of style)


YES! Shanghai needs a grand neo-classical station like that too. They should demolish the tacky 80's Shanghai Railway Station and build something on par with Grand Central or Old Penn Station


----------



## theespecialone

wowwwwww


----------



## Assemblage23

Really impressed with this proyect. I wasn't even aware of this.


----------



## jutinyoung




----------



## jutinyoung

the project is at it`s ending, and is estimated to be finished in oct 2009


----------



## jutinyoung

from *guangzhou *to *shenzhen* by train:

wanna know more about shenzhen ,please click:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenzhen

wanna see cityscraper of shenzhen, please click:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=914576&highlight=
the express railway from guangzhou to shenzhen is the first 4-line railway in china , with a length of 146 kilo( about 91.25mile) ,the designed speed more than 200kph, the railway cuts the travel time between the two metropolitan to 1 hour , that means the time from guangzhou to shenzhen is less than 1.5h, cause you only need half an hour from shenzhen to enter the adjacent city----hongkong , the train operated on the railway is CRH1 , a express train made by china self

here are some pics of CRH1


----------



## jutinyoung

1


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## jutinyoung

when past downtown of shenzhen


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## jutinyoung




----------



## jutinyoung

inside environment


----------



## musicsoul

it's amazing ^^. This chinese project is great.


----------



## urbanfan89

I hope to use the Wuhan - Guangzhou HSR within the first days of of its opening.


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## Peloso

LUCAFUSAR said:


> This year the Italian State Railways are going to place an order of 50/60 new HS trains. I'll hope they won't be neither Alstom/FIAT nor AnsaldoBreda or any other european mess.


Err... why do you think a winner firm like Alstom bought a (per se) hopeless asset like Fiat Ferroviaria?


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

^^Winner firm...what? The Alstom/ex-FIAT Ferraviaria products have very big problems. The ETR600/610 was intended to take commercial service in 2006-2007 schedule...and it took service in 2008 (ETR600) and july 2009, respectively. However the ETR610 can't run on the Gotthardbahn because of it has a too high load per axle. Hope the new AGV will be way better.


----------



## Peloso

LUCAFUSAR said:


> ^^Winner firm...what? The Alstom/ex-FIAT Ferraviaria products have very big problems. The ETR600/610 was intended to take commercial service in 2006-2007 schedule...and it took service in 2008 (ETR600) and july 2009, respectively. However the ETR610 can't run on the Gotthardbahn because of it has a too high load per axle. Hope the new AGV will be way better.


Perhaps you should read more carefully before answering. Well, never mind.


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

edit.


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

Peloso said:


> Err... why do you think a winner firm like Alstom bought a (per se) hopeless asset like Fiat Ferroviaria?


To destroy a "competitor", making really bad products (that's a fact), and take advance with their TGV.


----------



## Momo1435

Alstom bought FIAT for the tilt technology and to enter the lucrative Italian market for high speed trains with all the new lines.


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

^^The italian market for high speed trains is not lucrative.


----------



## Momo1435

^^ Yes it is, after Alstom took over Fiat in 2000 they were involved with the 2nd generation ETR 500 order (30 complete sets + 60 power cars) and won the ETR 600/610 order (28 sets) and the NTV order for AGV (25 sets). And that's not even the order for 50/60 new trains you're talking about. 

And considering that the market for high speed trains is quite small Italy can be considered a big market with these kind of numbers. And since Alstom was involved with every single order by buying FIAT I wouldn't say it was a bad choice.


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

^^The ETR500 has been produced in joint venture among AnsaldoBreda, FIAT Ferroviaria, ABB TIBB (Tecnomasio Italiano Brown Boweri, now Bombardier Transportation Italy) and FiremaTrasporti.
FIAT/Alstom Ferroviaria (itsself) makes only the Pendolinos 600series and 11 out of 25 NTV's AGVs. And, thrust me, the new FS train will be the Bombardier Zefiro, and it'll be produced in joint venture with AnsaldoBreda.
Alstom Ferroviaria exists because of the exports.


----------



## hans280

LUCAFUSAR said:


> FIAT/Alstom Ferroviaria (itsself) makes only the Pendolinos 600series and 11 out of 25 NTV's AGVs. And, thrust me, the new FS train will be the Bombardier Zefiro, and it'll be produced in joint venture with AnsaldoBreda.


That's very interesting. Are you sure? That means we'll see the new AGV and Zefiro compete head-to-head in Italy in a few years' time. Funny thing that, if you're right: the launch client for Zefiro was China. Next they sell it to Italy. How about the Canadians buying some of their own trains? :nuts:




LUCAFUSAR said:


> Alstom Ferroviaria exists because of the exports.


Also my impression. That takeover was apparently motivated by Alstom getting a bit frustrated over the gap in their product lineup. They had fully fledged TGVs for countries willing to invest zillions in new lines, and they had ordinary trains. They didn't have a scaled-down HS solution to offer countries like Finland, Czech Republic and Switzerland.


----------



## UD2

Xoser_barcelona said:


> ^^:lol: None taken at all. I actually am wondering how your post is a reaction on mine, but won't waste too much time on you further; I am sure your knowlAdge is light years ahead of mine and you are the one with access to the right source material.
> 
> Is there anybody without a chin on their shoulder (..or is it chip...?) that knows something about this, is willing to share information and doesn't take a fair question as an attack? Are there a lot of sound barriers being put up alongside lines where trains will pass at 350 kph? Are there plans from the ministry of environment being implemented currently?


You’re question has already been answered and explained. Read it intelligently and maybe you'll see it.

Actually, just to make sure..

Q: I see many small villages next to the high speed tracks with houses close to the line, but didn’t see many sound barriers on drive-through videos. What are the plans when it comes to protecting people living next to the lines from noise pollution? 

A: electric trains are quiet and tracks mounted high up above ground level allows nose to disspiate more effectively before reaching the houses. In dumb terms, they're not needed and therefore not provided.


To add to your ignorance, tracks that have residential buildings directly adjacent to it mostly won't have 350kmph speed limits. 

You’ll come around one day... i hope...


----------



## UD2

gincan said:


> When CRH has transported 7 billion passenger without one single fatality, then you can talk about Japan, I also highly doubt that CRH will ever reach even close to the punctuality of the Shinkansen.
> 
> Regarding the west (except for north america), on a per capita basis, china still has some 25-30 years more of railway constructions (at current pace) to catch up.


2nd part.

You're wrong to make that comparasion. Lengh of track is one thing, but passanger carried should be measured also taking into account traffic.

A 100km line with 4 tracks parrllel which are travelled by fully loaded 16 car trains travelling at 200km/h with 5 minute headways will carry more passangers than 300km of single tracks that takes on a 70% loaded 8 car train once every half hour. 

To make your arugment even less accurate. You're comparing track length per capita. That's retarded because a densely populated country will never surpass a sparsely populated one. Infact, to use your comparasion, Canada will be the best railroad nation in the world and nobody will ever beable to catch up with it. At least not at current population rate of growth. 


as for part one.. I guess we'll see.


----------



## Ariel74

Xoser_barcelona said:


> ^^:lol: None taken at all. I actually am wondering how your post is a reaction on mine, but won't waste too much time on you further; I am sure your knowlAdge is light years ahead of mine and you are the one with access to the right source material.
> 
> Is there anybody without a chin on their shoulder (..or is it chip...?) that knows something about this, is willing to share information and doesn't take a fair question as an attack? Are there a lot of sound barriers being put up alongside lines where trains will pass at 350 kph? Are there plans from the ministry of environment being implemented currently?



The guy you quoted was responding to you because he/she takes what you said about freedom of travel/facebook/noise stuff to be just propaganda or uninformed news in the west that you are merely regurgitating. You may disagree, but the person certainly wrote a response to the longest paragraph in your post.

By the way, everyone has chins above, though not on, their shoulders, so it's "chip" you are looking for. There seems to be a lot of chips to go round on this forum, and you are certainly not an exception


----------



## UD2

gramercy said:


> **** you
> 
> w/ love from spain
> and france
> and italy


lol... nice... 


true.. but not at the same speed and scale.. that you need to admit.


----------



## Ariel74

gincan said:


> When CRH has transported 7 billion passenger without one single fatality, then you can talk about Japan, I also highly doubt that CRH will ever reach even close to the punctuality of the Shinkansen.
> 
> Regarding the west (except for north america), on a per capita basis, china still has some 25-30 years more of railway constructions (at current pace) to catch up.


Ditto. It's easy to lose perspective and wax poetical about the chinese railway development. But comparisons with Japan and the West should make one sober again.


----------



## gramercy

UD2 said:


> lol... nice...
> 
> 
> true.. but not at the same speed and scale.. that you need to admit.


france has a 300 km long section capable of running at 360 kph, and when they introduce the AGV they will do that
they are also building ALL of their new infrastructure to 360 kph, thats hundreds of kilomteres in a country of 60-- million people

and for the record, they started 3 decades ago


and finally, when the little section from Figueres to Nimes is completed, you will have a ~2000 km long section from Seville to Paris, and 2300 km to London


and the jackass who talked down the west should also note that the goddamn video was probably shot from a VELARO


----------



## binhai

Xoser_barcelona said:


> I am getting a bit tired of this China is the next power yadda yadda. We will see and if so, than good on China. Let's hope the people of China don't suffer too much in this race of becoming whatever the oligarchs decide it should be. I know that I can never be free in China the way it is now, never even go on facebook or question what other ways might be good for my country. Nice trains, nice blinking stuff etc but in the end, if you can not travel freely, if you don't have the money to go anywhere, if you are not Han...what is it all worth?
> 
> Please, let's keep 'China' out of threads on Chinese High Speed Rail and let's not refer to our fellow human beings using physical traits. It is so not nice and has nothing to do with trains.
> 
> .........
> 
> I am just awed by the speed and extent of China's current rail construction and just love those over-the-top stations. It is all almost thunderbirds-esque. However, I see many small villages next to the high speed tracks with houses close to the line, but did'nt see many sound barriers on drive-through videos. What are the plans when it comes to protecting people living next to the lines from noise polution?


lol, "suffer?" I smell a little jealousy here, considering that China has faster high speed rail than all European countries


----------



## binhai

Ariel74 said:


> Ditto. It's easy to lose perspective and wax poetical about the chinese railway development. But comparisons with Japan and the West should make one sober again.


Faster (and soon-to-be, more extensive) high speed rail than all other countries...


----------



## Knuddel Knutsch

gramercy said:


> and the jackass who talked down the west should also note that the goddamn video was probably shot from a VELARO


jep...I know...and do you know who has the core technolgoy of the velaro now? thanks to a tech transfer deal that was signed between siemens and the chinese? Not the US--for sure....


----------



## city_thing

gramercy said:


> **** you
> 
> w/ love from spain
> and france
> and italy


Don't you just love this Chinese ultra-nationalism that won't allow for criticism at all? :nuts:


----------



## city_thing

BarbaricManchurian said:


> big for a developing country taken over by imperialists...


LOL. Idiot.


----------



## HunanChina

Somebody's knowledge about China that is suspending at last century, and have no any knowledge about Chinese people.hno:

Sorry, My English is poor.:nuts:


----------



## HunanChina

Some new photo about New Changsha Railway Station(CRH)

Yes, Changsha City is my hometown, Welcome to Changsha!


----------



## binhai

if you can't say anything but ad homenin attacks without actually refuting my point, i suggest you shut up since you aren't engaging in a productive discussion


----------



## HunanChina

makita09 said:


> Thanks for the updates HenanChina.




 My ID is HunanChina, not HenanChina.

Hunan is a province of China, and Henan is another.

Changsha is the capital of Hunan province.

Zhengzhou is the capital of Henan province.


----------



## snow is red

city_thing said:


> Don't you just love this Chinese ultra-nationalism that won't allow for criticism at all? :nuts:


lol gramercy is not even Chinese and his insult was directed at knuddle because knuddle was insulting Europe. 

Please read before you type anything. You already sound very moronic the last time when you said anything with magnetic levitation is copy of German technology, and you still have not answered my question concerning Japanese maglev.


----------



## maldini

gincan said:


> When CRH has transported 7 billion passenger without one single fatality, then you can talk about Japan, I also highly doubt that CRH will ever reach even close to the punctuality of the Shinkansen.
> 
> Regarding the west (except for north america), on a per capita basis, china still has some 25-30 years more of railway constructions (at current pace) to catch up.


That is why China's economy will keep on growing at fast pace for a few more decades, while Western Europe and North America are in debt and economic recession.


----------



## binhai

snow is red said:


> lol gramercy is not even Chinese and his insult was directed at knuddle because knuddle was insulting Europe.
> 
> Please read before you type anything. You already sound very moronic the last time when you said anything with magnetic levitation is copy of German technology, and you still have not answered my question concerning Japanese maglev.


yeah seriously, what a retard


----------



## HunanChina

Momo1435 said:


> [cough]English Please[/cough]
> 
> And if Japan is part of the West (maybe only politically, but that is not really important IMHO) is a bit too off topic for this thread.
> 
> And China is now in the lucky position that it can develop a High Speed Rail network in this time of economic growth, when Europe and the USA had the same kind of economic change trains where just invented. If Africa develops in 50 years time they will have the newest and best transport system that is available at that moment in time and China will be stuck with it's old steel on steel running trains that only go 350 km/h.



OMG! Your logic is so funny. 

Don't tell me that you think China will be at a standstill. 

Are not you know the technology of CRH 380km/h is under developing?

And do you know something like "Maglev".

Shanghai-Hangzhou Maglev(450km/h+) will start to construct soon.


----------



## gincan

UD2 said:


> 2nd part.
> 
> You're wrong to make that comparasion. Lengh of track is one thing, but passanger carried should be measured also taking into account traffic.
> 
> A 100km line with 4 tracks parrllel which are travelled by fully loaded 16 car trains travelling at 200km/h with 5 minute headways will carry more passangers than 300km of single tracks that takes on a 70% loaded 8 car train once every half hour.
> 
> To make your arugment even less accurate. You're comparing track length per capita. That's retarded because a densely populated country will never surpass a sparsely populated one. Infact, to use your comparasion, Canada will be the best railroad nation in the world and nobody will ever beable to catch up with it. At least not at current population rate of growth.
> 
> 
> as for part one.. I guess we'll see.


You don't seem to understand that I'm talking about investments, not about track length, the number of passengers or density of the traffic. I'm talking about the railway investments per capita, in western europe the investments have been in the range of around 100 euros per inhabitnat per year for decades.

For china with a population of 1,35 billion, that means 135 billion euros every year for several decades.


----------



## HunanChina

flierfy said:


> 40'000 km is very little for a country of this size.



Yes, China need more railway, at least 120,000km. So government invest a lot of money in infrastructure construction of railway every year.


----------



## HunanChina

*New Hangzhou Railway Station(CRH) 新杭州站*


----------



## HunanChina

*Jiling Railway Station(CRH) 新吉林站*

Design A B


----------



## HunanChina

*Taiyuan Railway Station(CRH) 新太原站*


----------



## HunanChina

*Xi'an Railway Station(CRH) 新西安站/西安北站*


----------



## HunanChina

*Qingdao North Railway Station(CRH) 青岛北站*


----------



## makita09

Sorry, it was a typo, I didn't know Henan was a place!


----------



## UD2

gincan said:


> You don't seem to understand that I'm talking about investments, not about track length, the number of passengers or density of the traffic. I'm talking about the railway investments per capita, in western europe the investments have been in the range of around 100 euros per inhabitnat per year for decades.
> 
> For china with a population of 1,35 billion, that means 135 billion euros every year for several decades.


My argument still stands. I don't think you fully understand what I've posted. 

Assume building 100km of track cost 1000 dollars and let's assume that it costs the same no matter where you are in the world (isn't true but for this purpose lets make it true for now).


Let's assume that Europe have 100 people and China have 200. 

The cost per capita for building the 100km of track in Europe will be 10 dollars and cost per capita in China would be 5. 

And also, using your logic, Canada still wins.

BTW. Taking PPP into account the cost in China would probably be at around 2. And there are a whole range of other issues that stands behind what I'm putting forward but I'm at works so I won't spend too much time going into details. Point is, your way to measure railway coverage per capita is wrong.


----------



## UD2

Taiyuan and Xi'an deserve better stations. 

These designs are aren't even on par with midiocre.


----------



## YelloPerilo

UD2 said:


> Taiyuan and Xi'an deserve better stations.
> 
> These designs are aren't even on par with midiocre.


The exterior design of the Xi'an station looks great. It's a modern take of Tang simplicity.


----------



## HunanChina

UD2 said:


> Taiyuan and Xi'an deserve better stations.
> 
> These designs are aren't even on par with midiocre.


The practicability of Railway Station is more important than good-looking.


----------



## HunanChina

The project of Zhengzhou-Xi'an CRH(350km/h Total:485km) will be completed soon. Next year, maybe January or February.


----------



## YelloPerilo

HunanChina said:


> The practicability of Railway Station is more important than good-looking.


Why not practicable and good-looking at the same time?


----------



## HunanChina

YelloPerilo said:


> Why not practicable and good-looking at the same time?


Ok,Ok, Do it, make one that perfect with practicable and good-looking by youself and post it here tomorrow!:cheers:

Say something is one thing, do something is another. There are many different
aethestic standard in every mind.


----------



## Momo1435

HunanChina said:


> OMG! Your logic is so funny.
> 
> Don't tell me that you think China will be at a standstill.
> 
> Are not you know the technology of CRH 380km/h is under developing?
> 
> And do you know something like "Maglev".
> 
> Shanghai-Hangzhou Maglev(450km/h+) will start to construct soon.


It was more a hypothetical example, but it could become true.

With the current growth figures there will be a moment when China is fully developed and then the economic growth figures won't be as impressive as they are now. Just look at North-west Europa and Japan, very rich countries with modest economic growth figures. Then it will be hard to keep up the current rate of investments in the rail network to keep it up to date with the latest technology. 

Construction will be more expensive, and that will be a big point when there is already a good system in place. Japan would already have a brand new expensive Maglev when they hadn't built a Shinkansen line from Tokyo to Osaka in the 1960s. Right now it just takes a very long time to actually get the new Maglev project from the ground with extremely high costs. 

But China with it's huge population still has a big growth potential left, so I don't expect that the economic growth will come to a hold in the coming decades. But that probably still doesn't mean that in 20 years China will construct new better Maglev on the same routes of the lines that they are currently building, only if they are actually needed.


----------



## UD2

Momo1435 said:


> It was more a hypothetical example, but it could become true.
> 
> With the current growth figures there will be a moment when China is fully developed and then the economic growth figures won't be as impressive as they are now. Just look at North-west Europa and Japan, very rich countries with modest economic growth figures. Then it will be hard to keep up the current rate of investments in the rail network to keep it up to date with the latest technology.
> 
> Construction will be more expensive, and that will be a big point when there is already a good system in place. Japan would already have a brand new expensive Maglev when they hadn't built a Shinkansen line from Tokyo to Osaka in the 1960s. Right now it just takes a very long time to actually get the new Maglev project from the ground with extremely high costs.
> 
> But China with it's huge population still has a big growth potential left, so I don't expect that the economic growth will come to a hold in the coming decades. But that probably still doesn't mean that in 20 years China will construct new better Maglev on the same routes of the lines that they are currently building, only if they are actually needed.



But I guess his/her point is that the countries of which we're making our comparisons here will, potentially one day, come to par with each other; Which was a rebuttal to an earlier post stating that some countries will always, to the end of time, be ahead of others.


----------



## UD2

HunanChina said:


> Ok,Ok, Do it, make one that perfect with practicable and good-looking by youself and post it here tomorrow!:cheers:
> 
> Say something is one thing, do something is another. There are many different
> aethestic standard in every mind.


There are many examples of practical good looking buildings in this thread; Shenyang Pro A, Shenzhen, Daqing, and Xuzhou, I find, are all examples of them.

Having an opinion is one thing but allowing other to have theirs is also very important. 

Xian’s station is a good station and if it were built in a city like Jiling it would with no question be a spectacular masterpiece. But given Xian historical importance and modern stature, I would say that city could afford to have a more significant looking building to use as its high speed gateway to the rest of China. 

Personally I find the station to be the fruit of a failed attempt to design a contemporary minimalist impression of the ancient Tang dynasty architectural style. It strikes with the taste of an excessively simplistic version of neo-modernist feel in that it seems too simple to be seen as decorated, yet too much to be seen as minimal. To me it doesn't carry the right rubbings. And frankly I if feels like it's something that a rural Chinese village bao-fa-hu would pick as his/her family estate. No offence intended. 

But again, the building it self may turn out to be much more successful than it is shown on the renders. Pictures sometimes can be misleading. 

So for now, I hope Xian gets another proposal. Otherwise, I hope it turns out well, or at least better than what I've seen in the CG.


----------



## foxmulder

Guyssssss come on this type of discussion is just boring and nobody will change their ideas.

Chinas rulezzz, Europe ruzlezzz, USA rulezzz too 

You want to show China as a developt country send more pictures  

Great photos, I love the Hengyang East Railway Station from distant. It looks like a great castle from 2000 years ago or something.

Go high speed rail..


----------



## Snowguy716

Looking at these pictures and the scope of this project makes me very sad that Americans have become a nation of "no we can't" and "but it's too expensive".. 

Americans would rather see a 36 lane freeway a quarter mile wide cutting through a never ending sea of single family homes on 1 acre lots with no sidewalks and no transit...

Rather than seeking to improve not only quality of life, but quality of place, which is equally as important, we just seek ways to make the commute in our giant gas guzzlers faster on ever wider freeways that we might get home to our bland "piece of the countryside in the city" so we can scorn our neighbors and whine about government programs we don't like and cast anyone with a differing opinion as a socialist leacher living off "my hard earned tax dollars"...

What a joke of a country we have become.. truly as John McCain put it... a nation of whiners. Scared, angry, full of faux outrage whiners at that.

But I'm sorry for totally derailing (haha.. n pun intended) this thread. The stations are beautiful and I'm sure the train ride will be incredibly smooth and comfortable.


----------



## octopusop

HunanChina said:


> OMG! Your logic is so funny.
> 
> Don't tell me that you think China will be at a standstill.
> 
> Are not you know the technology of CRH 380km/h is under developing?
> 
> And do you know something like "Maglev".
> 
> Shanghai-Hangzhou Maglev(450km/h+) will start to construct soon.


you are braggadocio.
CRH 380km/h is under developing by Bombardier in German, China MoR have sent dozens of billion RMBs to support the Zefiro.
Shanghai-Hangzhou Maglev will never go to operation, never.


----------



## UD2

octopusop said:


> you are braggadocio.
> CRH 380km/h is under developing by Bombardier in German, China MoR have sent dozens of billion RMBs to support the Zefiro.
> Shanghai-Hangzhou Maglev will never go to operation, never.


to support the Zefiro? provide your sources for that. They're paying for the trainsets and the R&D is armortized into the production life of the design model and burdened onto the trains. But no where did anybody ever mention that China is paying for the R&D. And if, by any chance, China's MOR is paying for the R&D for the Zefiro directly, then any research and development that is subsequently result from this investment will be owned solely by the Chinese and Bombardier will have no right to sell the Zefiro to anybody else. 


And the Shanghai - Hangzhou Maglev, if one day it does happen to come into existance, what would you do then? 


What are you 14?


----------



## octopusop

UD2 said:


> to support the Zefiro? provide your sources for that. They're paying for the trainsets and the R&D is armortized into the production life of the design model and burdened onto the trains. But no where did anybody ever mention that China is paying for the R&D. And if, by any chance, China's MOR is paying for the R&D for the Zefiro directly, then any research and development that is subsequently result from this investment will be owned solely by the Chinese and Bombardier will have no right to sell the Zefiro to anybody else.
> 
> 
> And the Shanghai - Hangzhou Maglev, if one day it does happen to come into existance, what would you do then?
> 
> 
> What are you 14?


Pay indirectly and Bombardier could sell Zefiro to any country.

Give me any authoritative source about the Meglev, don't show shitty youth's daydreaming.


----------



## gramercy

china and bombardier will not go to 380 kph, period
http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2008/9/3/174412/0350

(read the article before reply)


----------



## UD2

octopusop said:


> Pay indirectly and Bombardier could sell Zefiro to any country.
> 
> Give me any authoritative source about the Meglev, don't show shitty youth's daydreaming.


Part One: you're assuming that China will be the Zefiro's only customer, which by itself is dumb. It may turn out to be true, but Bombardier will try it's darnest to make sure that doesn't happen. You’re proclaiming something that you have neither control over or knowledge about, does a lot for your creditability. 

Part Two: you're an idiot. If the line is built 200 years from now, it'll still be built. Unless you can proclaim now that the world will end before it happens, you have no way knowing. Now if you, like an intelligent fully developed person, said that it wouldn't be built within your life time... then maybe. But then again, judging by the quality of your posts, your life time will probably still has quite a while to go.

So I’m guessing at around 14?


----------



## UD2

gramercy said:


> china and bombardier will not go to 380 kph, period
> http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2008/9/3/174412/0350
> 
> (read the article before reply)


Bombardier's own website states that the Chinese MOR had signed a deal for 80 sets of Zefiro 380s in the month of September this year.


----------



## gramercy

UD2 said:


> Bombardier's own website states that the Chinese MOR had signed a deal for 80 sets of Zefiro 380s in the month of September this year.


seeing is believing 

i mean it's not as if no PT company ever encountered delays or even abandoned projects because of difficulties


----------



## octopusop

UD2 said:


> Part One: you're assuming that China will be the Zefiro's only customer, which by itself is dumb. It may turn out to be true, but Bombardier will try it's darnest to make sure that doesn't happen. You’re proclaiming something that you have neither control over or knowledge about, does a lot for your creditability.
> 
> Part Two: you're an idiot. If the line is built 200 years from now, it'll still be built. Unless you can proclaim now that the world will end before it happens, you have no way knowing. Now if you, like an intelligent fully developed person, said that it wouldn't be built within your life time... then maybe. But then again, judging by the quality of your posts, your life time will probably still has quite a while to go.
> 
> So I’m guessing at around 14?


1. I never assuming that MoR will be the Zefiro's only customer, that's a story you invented. your moral character is so suspicious. 

2. only an idiot like you could consider a nothingness as actuality, see a psychotic doctor please.

so, could i guess which mental hospital you escaped from?


----------



## UD2

octopusop said:


> 1. I never assuming that MoR will be the Zefiro's only customer, that's a story you invented. your moral character is so suspicious.
> 
> 2. only an idiot like you could consider a nothingness as actuality, see a psychotic doctor please.
> 
> so, could i guess which mental hospital you escaped from?


1. If China isn't Bombardier's only customer then the cost of R&D would no doublt be allocated to other countries as well. Hense, China was paying for a product, not supporting a design. 

2. stop trying to act smart. Ain't working. 

3. Sure take your pick and report me. Let me know how it goes.


----------



## octopusop

UD2 said:


> 1. If China isn't Bombardier's only customer then the cost of R&D would no doublt be allocated to other countries as well. Hense, China was paying for a product, not supporting a design.
> 
> 2. stop trying to act smart. Ain't working.
> 
> 3. Sure take your pick and report me. Let me know how it goes.



Without money from China, Zefiro will be running in 2015 or late.

Daydreaming idiot are you.

Back to the hospital, my pool stupid.:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## octopusop

China is shameless in domestic propagating.
All of CRH tek were buying from Japan and German (Italy kicked off), MoR claimed that wholly autonomation intellectual property.

Did you see a dirty govt. before?


Chinese govt dare to lose face in dirty shame.


----------



## octopusop

nationalim is based on lying propaganda
patriotism is based on facts


----------



## makita09

octopusop said:


> nationalim is based on lying propaganda
> patriotism is based on facts


Patriotism is based on pride, and has little to do with facts most of the time.


----------



## hans280

Makita, I'm thrilled to see you taking an interest in modern railways for the 21st century. Based on our earlier "exchange" on the Bulgarian thread I'd have thought your position is that modern railways in a mountain country with a low average income are a waste of money? :lol:


----------



## financial way

very good, keep going.

that's why your nations are in deep debt and recession...


----------



## makita09

Hans - Previously I was merely playing devil's advocate. I can see when someone is making statements beyond their knowledge of the facts, and are likely to then get it in the neck from anyone with the facts who may have taken exception. I occasionally make this error and appreciate if it is pointed out to me (though I may put up a fight!), but this is human nature.

I fear you still haven't understood the reason why I am reserving judgment over the Bulgaria project. It is this, _in any country HSR is a big waste of money if the traffic that will use it is predominantly not going to be HSR. This is true in France as much as it is in Bulgaria._

This is just logic, and has absolutely nothing to do with politics, national prosperity or personal interests.

Now, Hans, don't take this as me having a go or anything. I'm just saying I don't think you were justified in your comments. If you have assumed anything about my position from that then you are again making a judgment without the information to do so, as I have not stated a position.

@ everyone else - this thread has also suffered a rash of irrational claims about politics this and national pride that, but for me I really don't care, I am interested in the high speed railways of China. Railways are not things to get particularly philosophical about, it amazes me how many people are willing to do so.

1) China is currently building a lot of world-class quality railways.

2) The 'West' is also building world-class quality railways.

3) China is building more.

This is hardly the sticking point likely to bring about a political revolution. Frankly you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in the west or east who wouldn't be asleep after hearing just these 3 facts. :goodnight

Anyone who turns this into a flame war, either in defence of China or against it, is frankly a bit crazy :nuts:


----------



## LUCAFUSAR

octopusop said:


> China is shameless in domestic propagating.
> All of CRH tek were buying from Japan and German (*Italy kicked off*), MoR claimed that wholly autonomation intellectual property.
> 
> ...


Alstom is french. And they are uncapable to grant a decent level of reiability to their products.


----------



## HunanChina

"Bombardier in German", are you sure? I think it in Canada.hno:

I am not a braggadocio. I just said "the technology of CRH 380km/h is under developing". I am not said "by Chinese technology". Is there anything wrong?

I don't care where the technology come from that as a angle of common passenger. The High-Speed Railway technology is important for China, but not in strategical aspect. German, Canada and Japan are good at High-Speed Railway technology, Let they do it. They developing High-Speed Railway technology, China buy it. Not too bad. The most important strategy of China is "C919".

About Shanghai-Hangzhou Maglev project, I am sure it will be start in 5 years. Because the Shanghai-Hangzhou passenger flow will be overload after 20 years. Maglev technology is strategical that about the future transport system. Shanghai-Hangzhou Maglev project is experimental and very important. 

Maybe when I am 60 years old(41 years later) in the future, there is another choice that I can go to Shanghai or Guangzhou by Maglev. CMH(China Maglev High-Speed). HaHa, It's a daydream. :cheers:

My English is poor, I can't understand some complicated sentence. Maybe, there is some misunderstanding.


----------



## HunanChina

I am in Beijing. I can't wait to go home and expect have a travel from Changsha to Guangzhou by High-Speed train. HaHaHa:banana:

Post more photo(from rednet.cn) about Changsha Railway Station

This Station is 8 platform 16 line, smaller than Wuhan and Guangzhou. But, when the Hangzhou-Changsha-Kunming CRH completed(maybe 5 years later), the Changsha Railway Station will be 16 platform 32 line.

The transports system of China more and more convenient and comfortable. So, Welcome Skyscrapercity citizen come to China, come to Changsha have a visit. Welcome!


----------



## foxmulder

I like these "airport looking train stations" building in China.


----------



## octopusop

LUCAFUSAR said:


> Alstom is french. And they are uncapable to grant a decent level of reiability to their products.


CRH5 was designed by Fiat Ferroviaria (now Alstom Ferroviaria).


----------



## Slartibartfas

^^ Fascinating, 70 kms. In Europe you may hit another city at that distance already. But why would anyone, who has to take the car from the centre to a 70 km distant place via highway to get to the railway station in first place, chose to take the train at all and take the car for the whole trip?

I hope this is rather the exception that high capacity rail intercity links are lacking a high capacity connection to the local PT network. 

Having that said, I can of course understand that building this far away from the centre is done due to reasonable arguments and is not done just for the fun of it.


----------



## gramercy

because it will be like an airport


----------



## metro_minotaur

i like this design on page 1, it's a very unique design for a railway station.


----------



## makita09

Slartibartfas said:


> ^^ Fascinating, 70 kms. In Europe you may hit another city at that distance already. But why would anyone, who has to take the car from the centre to a 70 km distant place via highway to get to the railway station in first place, chose to take the train at all and take the car for the whole trip?


Because it works out much faster?

If the trip is 1000km?


----------



## HunanChina

Locate a new railway station at urban fringe is part of urbanization plan! China need more city space to accept the 500 million people in decades to come in. A huge CRH station can expand city's space . Maybe, there will be emerge 9 or 10 cities with 10 million people in China.

70 km? It's ridiculous. 15 km maximum, average 8km maybe and connect with bus. In big city(with a big CRH railway station)metro under construct or under plan(Changsha city metro is under construct)

Changsha Metro Plan, You can see the location of New Railway Station.


----------



## HunanChina

Zhengzhou Metro Plan Map, you can see the location of New Zhengzhou Railway Station(CRH)


----------



## HunanChina

Guangzhou Metro Map 2010
You can see the location of New Guangzhou Railway Station(CRH)


----------



## HunanChina

Wuhan City Track Traffic(Metro and Light Rail) System Plan Map
You can see the location of Wuhan Railway Station(CRH)


----------



## HunanChina

A guy's exciting adventure in Wuhan Railway Station

CRH2E









ID:CRH2-128E




















Yes, that is CRH3(ICE)

































































































































































































































































































































Wuhan Railway Station 
11 Platforms 22 Lines
Construction Cost:14 billion RMB(about 1.4 billion euro)


----------



## HunanChina

A distance of 70km is a short distance in China. Maybe it's a distance of two small city.
My hometown Changsha is median size(2.2 million people) city, and is about 700 km distance from Guangzhou, about 1200 km distance from Shanghai, about 1500 km distance from Beijing. We need CRH. So many people use the railway transports system, a big Railway Station is necessary.


----------



## HunanChina

Tianxingzhou Road Rail Bridge on Yangtze River 天兴洲长江大桥(铁路公路两用桥)

4 railway lines and CRH train can cross the Bridge with 350km/h.


----------



## gramercy

just awesome


----------



## foxmulder

Both Wuhan station and bridge looks great


----------



## UD2

HunanChina said:


> A distance of 70km is a short distance in China. Maybe it's a distance of two small city.
> My hometown Changsha is median size(2.2 million people) city, and is about 700 km distance from Guangzhou, about 1200 km distance from Shanghai, about 1500 km distance from Beijing. We need CRH. So many people use the railway transports system, a big Railway Station is necessary.


It's the distance between the center of a regional metropolitian area and one of its counties.

This is very common, as I'm sure you already know.

I'm sure Changsha would have counties that are this distance away from its city center.


----------



## foxmulder

HunanChina said:


> 70 km? It's ridiculous.


I think you misunderstood the post, He was talking about freight rail speed.


----------



## Celebriton

I love all the futuristic design, especially combined with traditional Chinese architecture element. Usually this kind of building style will last for forever and unique.

Some building design look great from the air, but look plain from the street level. I hope China government will check everything carefully from many angle and option before make a choice.

I also dislike futuristic building that everything just has gray color. I think they should use many color, like high quality wood, dark colorful marble, etc. I think the future trend is colorful futuristic building that made from many material, rather than just steel and glass, that makes everything just gray.


----------



## highway35

Slartibartfas said:


> Most of these designs look stunning, they look however as if they were in quite remote locations with pretty much nothing around. I honestly know nothing about them, but I guess they will be connected decently by large capacity public means of transport (metro or equivalent). Judging from their size, they should be served by several lines actually, or railway lines in their own right that connect it with the city centre.
> 
> I think they miss a real opportunity if they should not develop the surrounding of the railway stations densely and with mixed use developments. The land around these stations should be far too valuable as to waste it for large scale surface parking.
> 
> Principally it would be a pity if they should be as remote as Airports use to be, at least in Europe one of the big advantages rail has over aviation is that closeness of the stations to the city centres.


One key difference between China and Europe is that China is still in the midst of rapid urbanization process. Most European cities have been fairly established while most Chinese cities are still evolving. Witness the expanding metropolitan areas of Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and many other cities in China.

The dilemma that the Chinese city planners face is that if you build a brand new railway station close to the center of the city, you're going to be limited by space and you would have to move a lot of people around the area. It is hugely disruptive and expensive for such a rail station. Typically, a Chinese city already has a railway station near the city center serving the existing lines. China is developing a high-speed rail network across the country on completely new tracks. This gives the Chinese city planners an opportunity to plan and map out new and expanded urban areas to facilitate the development. The local governments are using this opportunity to develop a new area in suburb and sell the appreciating land, thus recouping the investment in infrastructure.

Take an extreme example. Guangzhou's commercial center has shifted to the Tianhe area from the old city center due to new development over the last 20 years. The new Guangzhou railway station is pretty far from both old city center and the Tianhe district. But a new and large development area will emerge around the new railway station, serving Guangzhou and its surrounding region. Similarly, Shanghai is planning massive development projects around the Hongqiao railway station (and Hongqiao Airport). The Hongqiao transport hub will be at the center of a commercial and residential area and will serve the nearby Yangtze River Delta. It is also a different development zone oriented toward domestic market from the Pudong area east of Huangpu River more oriented toward finance and international trade.

In fact, for many large Chinese cities, multiple railway stations exist or are planned around the different areas around the city to serve the population around them. Beijing have five railway stations; Shanghai has four; Guangzhou has three.

The highway rail network in China will ultimately shape the Chinese social and economic landscape profoundly. We will witness the huge changes over the next 10-20 years.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Can the Chinese CRH go at a slow speed to the old lines to access old railway stations or serve branch lines, like French TGV does?

Travelling through cities at slow speed wastes time. But in first and last stops, it would make a lot of sense - those who want can get off in a suburban station.

What is the distance by rail from Changsha to Wuchang? What shall the trip times be from Changsha to Wuchang and Guangzhou as of 27th of December?


----------



## Slartibartfas

@highway35
Thanks for that very informative post. 



makita09 said:


> Because it works out much faster?
> 
> If the trip is 1000km?


Of course, but a large capacity long distance rail that is not connected by large capacity local rail/metro experiences a serious disadvantage. 

Rail has to be competitive on shorter travels against the car and on eg 1000 km against aviation. Maybe the situation in China is different but in Europe, it is a major advantage of the High Speed Rail that its stations are pretty close to the centre, compared to the airports. 

Anyway, I think most of these Chinese rail hubs are connected either to Metro or local rail connectors anyway. If what someone said above, that the average distance to the centre would be 8 km thats something very different from the 70 km above and is nothing awkward then.


----------



## HunanChina

:nuts:I think I should make more efforts in my English study.
English is the most difficult language in the world.hno:


----------



## octopusop

chornedsnorkack said:


> Can the Chinese CRH go at a slow speed to the old lines to access old railway stations or serve branch lines, like French TGV does?
> 
> Travelling through cities at slow speed wastes time. But in first and last stops, it would make a lot of sense - those who want can get off in a suburban station.
> 
> What is the distance by rail from Changsha to Wuchang? What shall the trip times be from Changsha to Wuchang and Guangzhou as of 27th of December?


Most of CRHs are running 160~200km/h at existing lines today. 
China MoR is testing above 30ton axle load freight train.
The speed limit of China conventional lines are 160km/h @ 20ton axle load or 120km/h @ 23ton, very similar with Europe. If a 30ton axle load train was running at a conventional line, the rail condition would be very poor, so the speed limit may be 80~120km/h.

I can image the future of Chinese railway, when Passenger Specail Network is built, 14ton axle load CRHs are running at it with speed of 250~350km/h, and heavy slow freight trains running at an other parallel double-track, maybe cheapest passenger trains will running at freight lines at 80km/h.


----------



## makita09

chornedsnorkack said:


> Can the Chinese CRH go at a slow speed to the old lines to access old railway stations or serve branch lines, like French TGV does?


Yes. Not by any means in all circumstance but yes. Same electrification, same guage.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Changsha-Wuchang*

I found quite some information.

The distance Changsha-Wuchang is 362 km. A schedule can be found at:
http://www.chinatravelguide.com/ctg...earch?from=Changsha&to=Wuchang&Submit1=submit

The fastest train is D150, and it covers the distance in 3:09, with 3 intermediate stops (Yueyang, Chibi, Xianning).

There are 54 trains total in a day. 24 of them are T trains, which take roughly 3:24 to 4:00

A lot of trains stop in Changsha at odd hours of night, passing through and picking up passengers.

The number trains are generally the slowest. Mostly taking about 5 hours. The exception is train number 1804, which takes about 6 and a half hours.

What shall the trip time be from 28th of December?


----------



## octopusop

chornedsnorkack said:


> I found quite some information.
> 
> The distance Changsha-Wuchang is 362 km. A schedule can be found at:
> http://www.chinatravelguide.com/ctg...earch?from=Changsha&to=Wuchang&Submit1=submit
> 
> The fastest train is D150, and it covers the distance in 3:09, with 3 intermediate stops (Yueyang, Chibi, Xianning).
> 
> There are 54 trains total in a day. 24 of them are T trains, which take roughly 3:24 to 4:00
> 
> A lot of trains stop in Changsha at odd hours of night, passing through and picking up passengers.
> 
> The number trains are generally the slowest. Mostly taking about 5 hours. The exception is train number 1804, which takes about 6 and a half hours.
> 
> What shall the trip time be from 28th of December?


I've heard that Wuhan-Guangzhou 350km/h HSR will be opened at December 27. You should be the one of first passengers.


----------



## yaohua2000

chornedsnorkack said:


> Can the Chinese CRH go at a slow speed to the old lines to access old railway stations or serve branch lines, like French TGV does?
> 
> Travelling through cities at slow speed wastes time. But in first and last stops, it would make a lot of sense - those who want can get off in a suburban station.
> 
> What is the distance by rail from Changsha to Wuchang? What shall the trip times be from Changsha to Wuchang and Guangzhou as of 27th of December?


Chinese CRH does go at a slow speed to the old lines to access old railway stations or serve branch lines, like French TGV does.

For the old Beijing-Guangzhou line, the rail distance from Wuhan to Changsha is 362 km (Wuchang to Changsha), the fastest train takes 03h21m to cover this distance, with three stops at Xianning, Chibi and Yueyang, or 03h09m in the opposite direction from Changsha to Wuchang with the same stops.

For the new Wuhan-Guangzhou high-speed line, the rail distance is shorten to 348 km (Wuhan to Changsha South), and a non-stop train takes 01h05m to cover this distance. If the train stop at Xianning North, Chibi North and Yueyang East, each for one minute, it should take 01h21m or so.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

yaohua2000 said:


> For the new Wuhan-Guangzhou high-speed line, the rail distance is shorten to 348 km (Wuhan to Changsha South), and a non-stop train takes 01h05m to cover this distance.


Which means 321 km/h average. This sounds realistic, considering the 350 km/h maximum.

With 1:05 trip distance station to station, this makes daily commute to Wuhan a rather practicable proposal. Especially if there are convenient opportunities to get to metro network.

Are any CRH stations located in airport terminals?


----------



## Whiteeclipse

*China to launch high-speed railway from central to south China*
A railway linking Wuhan in central China's Hubei Province and Guangdong's capital Guangzhou city was set for trial run on Wednesday.

It took three hours for trains to cover the 1,068.6-kilometer railway, said an official with the railway bureau of Wuhan.

The railway costs about 116.6 billion yuan (about 17 billion US dollars) and shortens the 10.5-hour trip between Wuhan and Guangzhou to three hours.

Trial operation of the railway shall start on December 20, according to the official.

China is in a fervor of improving its railway system amid transportation pressure. As planned, it will build 42 high-speed passenger rail lines with a total length of 13,000 kilometers in the three years.









A driver leads the train through the tunnel on the Wuhan-Guangzhou Railway, December 9, 2009. The High-Speed Passengers-dedicated Wuhan-Guangzhou Railway, which extends 1,068.6 km in full length and scheduled to be operational by the end of 2009, made its trial operation on wednesday.









The test-running trains prepare for their first journey at the station in Guangzhou, capital of south China's Guangdong Province, Dec. 9, 2009.









The test-running train prepare for its first journey at the station in Guangzhou, capital of south China's Guangdong Province, Dec. 9, 2009.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-12/09/content_9150831.htm


----------



## UD2

^^

beautiful...


----------



## UD2

Slartibartfas said:


> @highway35
> Thanks for that very informative post.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, but a large capacity long distance rail that is not connected by large capacity local rail/metro experiences a serious disadvantage.
> 
> Rail has to be competitive on shorter travels against the car and on eg 1000 km against aviation. Maybe the situation in China is different but in Europe, it is a major advantage of the High Speed Rail that its stations are pretty close to the centre, compared to the airports.
> 
> Anyway, I think most of these Chinese rail hubs are connected either to Metro or local rail connectors anyway. If what someone said above, that the average distance to the centre would be 8 km thats something very different from the 70 km above and is nothing awkward then.


8km is a very short distance. As mentioned above, situations such as this would be very rare. Stations located within 10KM of existing city centers should mostly be existing terminals serving older lines. 

70KM, on the other hand, would be the opposite end of the spectrum. In certain cases, as it is explained with great articulation by Highway35 in his/her post above as well as the list of reasons that I've given, this does happen. 

But mostly, these new HSR stations would be quite a distance away from the existing city center.


----------



## UD2

HunanChina said:


> :nuts:I think I should make more efforts in my English study.
> English is the most difficult language in the world.hno:


Actually I believe Chinese is.

Your English is fine.


----------



## Slartibartfas

^^ Thats the western aproach to the question which language is the most difficult one. How about a compromise between you both? Let's say Finnish is the most difficult one. No one understands the Fins


----------



## superchan7

Wuhan Station is beautiful, except for the silly calligraphy font for the outside display. Come on now, it's 2010.


----------



## leo_sh

Actually, English is one of the languages that are most like Chinese in structure. Both have a subject-verb-object word order, subject-noun phrase structure, relatively simple verb conjugation and relatively complicatd verb aspects. The difference lies in that the vocabulary of English is mostly Indo-European, whereas Chinese Sino-East Asian. Behind there there are also a lot of cultural factors. Most Chinese would find Japanese and Korean much easier to learn as the three share a lot of vocabulary and cultural heritage, although Japanese and Korean have some very different grammar.


----------



## Andrew

My goodness, what an improvement! I've done the journey from Guangzhou to Wuhan twice, and as much as I like the sleeper trains, a reduction from 10.5 hours to 3 hours is just amazing!


----------



## Slartibartfas

Wow, that's a cool animation, not only the station is nice, but they seem to build not just a station there but a whole urban station district. Great.



>


----------



## UD2

Slartibartfas said:


> ^^ Thats the western aproach to the question which language is the most difficult one. How about a compromise between you both? Let's say Finnish is the most difficult one. No one understands the Fins


my first language is Chinese. it's freaking hard.... althought I'm sure Finnish is very tough as well...


----------



## UD2

leo_sh said:


> Actually, English is one of the languages that are most like Chinese in structure. Both have a subject-verb-object word order, subject-noun phrase structure, relatively simple verb conjugation and relatively complicatd verb aspects. The difference lies in that the vocabulary of English is mostly Indo-European, whereas Chinese Sino-East Asian. Behind there there are also a lot of cultural factors. Most Chinese would find Japanese and Korean much easier to learn as the three share a lot of vocabulary and cultural heritage, although Japanese and Korean have some very different grammar.


Actually in this respect, I'd say French is more like Chinese, in terms of grammer, than English.


----------



## Slartibartfas

UD2 said:


> my first language is Chinese. it's freaking hard.... althought I'm sure Finnish is very tough as well...


To be honest I think Chinese is harder to learn, not that Finnish would be that much less alien to a person that is at home in the indo European language family, but it helps big time that Finnish is written in latin writing and you pronounce it the very way you write it. So it does not take a lot to get to know how to read Finnish properly. Same can hardly be said of Chinese, at least from a European perspective 

Minä olen eurooppalainen, mutta en puhua paljon suomea 

Ok, enough OT from my side, I don't want to mess around too much here.


----------



## UD2

^^

moi non plus


----------



## Slartibartfas

^^ Sehr gut

Have I already expressed my deep admiration of China's High speed rail program? Its breath taking to see the dimensions.


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> I found quite some information.
> 
> The distance Changsha-Wuchang is 362 km. A schedule can be found at:
> http://www.chinatravelguide.com/ctg...earch?from=Changsha&to=Wuchang&Submit1=submit
> 
> The fastest train is D150, and it covers the distance in 3:09, with 3 intermediate stops (Yueyang, Chibi, Xianning).
> 
> There are 54 trains total in a day. 24 of them are T trains, which take roughly 3:24 to 4:00
> 
> A lot of trains stop in Changsha at odd hours of night, passing through and picking up passengers.
> 
> The number trains are generally the slowest. Mostly taking about 5 hours. The exception is train number 1804, which takes about 6 and a half hours.
> 
> What shall the trip time be from 28th of December?


A non-stop train should be able to do it in a maximum of 90minutes.


----------



## Restless

highway35 said:


> One key difference between China and Europe is that China is still in the midst of rapid urbanization process. Most European cities have been fairly established while most Chinese cities are still evolving. Witness the expanding metropolitan areas of Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and many other cities in China.
> 
> The dilemma that the Chinese city planners face is that if you build a brand new railway station close to the center of the city, you're going to be limited by space and you would have to move a lot of people around the area. It is hugely disruptive and expensive for such a rail station. Typically, a Chinese city already has a railway station near the city center serving the existing lines. China is developing a high-speed rail network across the country on completely new tracks. This gives the Chinese city planners an opportunity to plan and map out new and expanded urban areas to facilitate the development. The local governments are using this opportunity to develop a new area in suburb and sell the appreciating land, thus recouping the investment in infrastructure.
> 
> Take an extreme example. Guangzhou's commercial center has shifted to the Tianhe area from the old city center due to new development over the last 20 years. The new Guangzhou railway station is pretty far from both old city center and the Tianhe district. But a new and large development area will emerge around the new railway station, serving Guangzhou and its surrounding region. Similarly, Shanghai is planning massive development projects around the Hongqiao railway station (and Hongqiao Airport). The Hongqiao transport hub will be at the center of a commercial and residential area and will serve the nearby Yangtze River Delta. It is also a different development zone oriented toward domestic market from the Pudong area east of Huangpu River more oriented toward finance and international trade.
> 
> In fact, for many large Chinese cities, multiple railway stations exist or are planned around the different areas around the city to serve the population around them. Beijing have five railway stations; Shanghai has four; Guangzhou has three.
> 
> The highway rail network in China will ultimately shape the Chinese social and economic landscape profoundly. We will witness the huge changes over the next 10-20 years.


Just to add to the comments above:

London (10 smaller stations) or Paris (7? stations) have multiple stations, so it is not uncommon as the cities then grew around them. It is also much more expensive (in terms of land acquisition) and slower to build in the dense city centre, in comparison to the less built-up areas that exist 5-15km away.

Also China is still only 50% urban, so there are still 600million+ people who will move into the new city districts that are planned.


----------



## gramercy

http://videoportal.sf.tv/video?id=ddd4b2e1-a5ed-4ca0-95c4-81e621247193


----------



## foxmulder

393km/h nice video... Is this on Wuhan-Guangzhou line?


----------



## Big Cat

*World's fastest train unveiled in China*

As China's economy and population expand, so do its transport needs. Although car ownership is on the increase, the Government is investing more in the railways.

China now has the fastest train in the world. It runs from the central city of Wuhan down to the south coast, at a speed of more than 380km/h.

Video


:cheers:


----------



## gramercy

380++ was a TEST RUN

the train HAS TO be safe at 350+10%


----------



## Restless

gramercy said:


> 380++ was a TEST RUN
> 
> the train HAS TO be safe at 350+10%


I like how the cigarette kept standing upright  That's a smooth ride


----------



## HunanChina

I think UD2 is Taiwanese. I guess.


----------



## HunanChina

*Wuhan Railway Station Lighting Test*


----------



## HunanChina

*A Experience Travel Route for Journalist*


----------



## zergcerebrates

WHAT A BIG STATION! Hows the Guangzhou one doing?


----------



## zergcerebrates

Seems like China is addicted to building infrastructure and each new railway station keeps getting better and better. Shanghai South Railway station, then Beijing's massive station, then Changsha, now Wuhan and soon Guangzhou, very impressive.


----------



## HunanChina

New Guangzhou Railway Station(South Station) have not completed.

CRH Wuhan-Guangzhou will use the old Guangzhou Railway Staion until next year.


----------



## baidu

wuhan-guangzhou HSR video:http://bbs.hasea.com/thread-420331-1-1.html
most funny part: farmer and her two cute kids


----------



## snow is red

baidu said:


> wuhan-guangzhou HSR video:http://bbs.hasea.com/thread-420331-1-1.html
> most funny part: farmer and her two cute kids


lol in China farmers wear jeans and cardigan in the farm ?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Is 968 km from new Wuchang station to old Guangzhou station, or to new Guangzhou station?


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is 968 km from new Wuchang station to old Guangzhou station, or to new Guangzhou station?


It should be 968km of new railway track, so that would mean the new stations then


----------



## urbanfan89

Due to delays with the Guangzhou South Station, trains on this line will originate/terminate at Guangzhou North/Huadu Station until January 30, 2010.


----------



## yaohua2000

Restless said:


> It should be 968km of new railway track, so that would mean the new stations then


Guangzhou on old railway
Guangzhou South on new railway
Guangzhou North on both railways

Wuhan - Guangzhou North = 922 km
Wuhan - Guangzhou South = 968 km
Wuhan - Guangzhou North - Guangzhou = 949 km
Wuchang - Guangzhou = 1069 km


----------



## chornedsnorkack

urbanfan89 said:


> Due to delays with the Guangzhou South Station, trains on this line will originate/terminate at Guangzhou North/Huadu Station until January 30, 2010.


Shall any trains on new line pass beyond Guangzhou North station, whether to Guangzhou Old station, Shenzhen, Kowloon, Zhuhai, Haian or elsewhere?


----------



## Hopobcn

Papagei said:


> Think of Spain which cancled their 350 km/h.


Far as i know, spain did not canceld nothing, ERTMS Level 1 first and Level 2 second. Simply implement the level 2 is not ready :bash:. But the LAV are still made for 350km/h.

The website http://www.ertms.com/2007v2/projects.html says Wuhan-Guangzhou is Level 2... someone can confirm this?
. xD vote: a) ERTMS lvl 2
b) ERTMS lvl 2 + CTCS- 3
c) CTCS- 3


----------



## Scion

^^ Taxi from Brisbane Airport to Brissy city and from Sydney Airport to Sydney Central are both around A$30-40, even the train on both sides are around A$15. The quality of service onboard the CRH3 is also far better than Jetstar or Tiger. Without a doubt the CRH is cheap by western standards, as it should be.


----------



## zaphod

Also It would be more fun personally to be riding in a train and have a window seat.

Flying can be scenic sure but there are always clouds it seems when I fly. I also don't feel like I've truly "been there" in a plane as opposed to being on the ground.


----------



## snapdragon

yeah best of luck trying to click pictures while the scenary starts whizzing away at the rate of 300 kmph


----------



## Saigoneseguy

Buddy Holly said:


> By US standards yes, but not by Chinese standards.


55 yuan is dirt cheap by Chinese standard. Btw I don't know where you got that figure from. One way ticket costs Y490 for second class and Y780 for first class.


----------



## siamu maharaj

brightside. said:


> I really doubt 55 yuan is expensive for Chinese people, that is even cheap over here in Pakistan for a 1000 km journey.


One must take into account a lot of things:

1) A 55 yuan ticket from Karachi to Lahore (about 1200 km) would be expensive for those who travel in 3rd class. I don't know but my guess is it'd cost around 30 yuan or so.

2) More importantly, it's about what people are used to opaying. On another site a Chinese person said that they're used to paying 11 yuan for a 12 hr. journey. Since they're used to it, paying 5 times more seems a lot. According to that person, she'd gladly pay 11 yuan and take the slower train that takes 9 hrs. longer. 

If the ridership is very low, I can see the fare dropping to around 25 or so and then being gradually increased. That way people will get used to it and find it indispensible. Right now they're thinking 55 yuan, **** it.


----------



## siamu maharaj

I'm not trying to sound negative though. Nice to see a HS train. From wikipedia, the technology is from Shinkansen and German ICE (Valero).


----------



## HunanChina

Arul Murugan said:


> Is this line goes via Changsha?
> 
> Last time when I traveled from Guangzhou Baiyun AP to Changsha by flight it took 1hr 30min and fare was around 800CNY.
> 
> If this high speed train goes via Changsha, can any one tell about travel time and fare!




CRH Guangzhou-Changsha Timetable Version 2009.12.28


　车次, 始发站, 终点站, 车辆类型, 发站, 发时, 　到站, 到时, 停站, 历时, 硬座, 软座, 硬卧中, 软卧下
G1022	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	07:00	长沙南	09:15	4	02:15	312	499	-	-
G1024	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	07:30	长沙南	09:52	5	02:22	312	499	-	-
G1026	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	08:00	长沙南	10:15	4	02:15	312	499	-	-
G1028	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	08:30	长沙南	10:51	5	02:21	312	499	-	-
G1030	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	09:00	长沙南	11:14	4	02:14	312	499	-	-
G1032	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	09:50	长沙南	12:19	4	02:29	312	499	-	-
G1034	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	10:50	长沙南	13:05	4	02:15	312	499	-	-
G1036	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	11:20	长沙南	13:35	4	02:15	312	499	-	-
G6002	广州北	长沙南	高速动车	广州北	11:48	长沙南	14:17	6	02:29	312	499	-	-
G1038	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	12:20	长沙南	14:34	4	02:14	312	499	-	-
G1040	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	12:50	长沙南	15:05	4	02:15	312	499	-	-
G1042	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	13:20	长沙南	15:42	5	02:22	312	499	-	-
G1044	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	13:50	长沙南	16:05	4	02:15	312	499	-	-
G1046	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	14:20	长沙南	16:49	6	02:29	312	499	-	-
G1048	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	14:50	长沙南	17:05	4	02:15	312	499	-	-
G1050	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	15:20	长沙南	17:35	4	02:15	312	499	-	-
G1052	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	16:30	长沙南	18:45	4	02:15	312	499	-	-
G6004	广州北	长沙南	高速动车	广州北	17:00	长沙南	19:43	8	02:43	312	499	-	-
G1054	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	17:50	长沙南	20:12	5	02:22	312	499	-	-
G6006	广州北	长沙南	高速动车	广州北	18:20	长沙南	20:48	6	02:28	312	499	-	-
G1056	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	18:48	长沙南	21:03	4	02:15	312	499	-	-
G1058	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	19:20	长沙南	21:28	3	02:08	312	499	-	-
G6008	广州北	长沙南	高速动车	广州北	19:50	长沙南	22:26	7	02:36	312	499	-	-
G6010	广州北	长沙南	高速动车	广州北	20:35	长沙南	22:57	5	02:22	312	499	-	-



So, the ticket price(Guangzhou-Changsha) is 312RMB(second class) and 499RMB(first class), travel time is about 2 hours 20 minutes.


First Class










Second Class


----------



## HunanChina

ticket style


----------



## KB

Dimethyltryptamine said:


> 48€, and from takeoff to landing is about 70 minutes - but depends on the wind etc. I don't include waiting times, or taxi times.


Thats not possible...a plane cruises at a maximum speed of 850-900 km/hr but only at altitudes and it will waste a lot of time gaining and loosing that altitude during which time its speed will be considerably lower. A flight time of 1 hr or 70 mins just doesn't add up. 

And a quick googling for the flights reveals that it is 1hr 30mins which is more appropriate to my original estimate. Add the time for early arrival, transport to and from city centers and you quickly have 3hr or more. 

Anyway, going shorter distances 500-600km by HSR is much faster than by plane and I think is more successful wherever it has been implemented. 




snapdragon said:


> yeah best of luck trying to click pictures while the scenary starts whizzing away at the rate of 300 kmph


Unless you want to capture the electric poles on each side of the train (which are barely 10ft away) or you got trees lined up on either side of the track, its not much of a problem.


----------



## flierfy

Ariel74 said:


> For the issue of economic feasibility, it can be much harder to prove things either way, as again, you'd have to know the exact modifications and changes chinese engineers made and above all their testing data. Surely you don't want to play the smug European believing blindly that what can't be X, Y, or Z (e.g. economically feasible) in Europe cannot be X, Y, or Z elsewhere? ;-)


Japanese and European engineers have developed this technology for several decades. You don't really want to make us believe that a few modifications made by Chinese engineers in a few months pushed the economical feasibility significantly. It seems to me that you are the only smug in here.


----------



## gincan

Ariel74 said:


> The chinese claim they have developed and deployed for the W-G-line the CTCS-3 system ("Chinese Train Control System"). I have no idea how much they borrowed or leaned on the European control systems in developing it. The performance of CTCS-3 is claimed to be: automated report and warning for tracks within 32 kilometers ahead in the direction of travel, with the gliding distance when braking at the speed of 350km/h being 5 km.


It is the same system they use in europe, it was contracted to and installed by Bombardier (source IRJ sept 1 2007) and it is the ETCS (in china CTCS). It is the level 2 but not fully functional, when working as designed they will be able to run 24 trains per hour at 350km/h (one train every 2,5 minutes). Today the best they´ve been able to get out of the ETCS level 2 is one train every 3 minutes at 250km/h (Lötschberg base tunel).


----------



## Dimethyltryptamine

KB said:


> Thats not possible...a plane cruises at a maximum speed of 850-900 km/hr but only at altitudes and it will waste a lot of time gaining and loosing that altitude during which time its speed will be considerably lower. A flight time of 1 hr or 70 mins just doesn't add up.
> 
> And a quick googling for the flights reveals that it is 1hr 30mins which is more appropriate to my original estimate. Add the time for early arrival, transport to and from city centers and you quickly have 3hr or more.
> 
> Anyway, going shorter distances 500-600km by HSR is much faster than by plane and I think is more successful wherever it has been implemented.


Average time is 1 hour 25, actually. But I have done it in 1 hour ~ 1 hour and 10 minutes. Other times, we've had to fly out over the Blue Mountains to get ourselves in a landing position, which takes up to 1 hour and 30 minutes. I have flown it many of times. It's a 950km route by road, as the crow flies it's a 728km journey.


----------



## MILIUX

The rolling stock's interior looks very similar to ICE3.


----------



## Ariel74

df


----------



## Ariel74

gincan said:


> It is the same system they use in europe, it was contracted to and installed by Bombardier (source IRJ sept 1 2007) and it is the ETCS (in china CTCS). It is the level 2 but not fully functional, when working as designed they will be able to run 24 trains per hour at 350km/h (one train every 2,5 minutes). Today the best they´ve been able to get out of the ETCS level 2 is one train every 3 minutes at 250km/h (Lötschberg base tunel).


I couldn't find that issue of the IRJ, as it is more than two and half years ago. This would however be in a way compatible with the chinese sources, insofar as the chinese describe what they did in the area of control and guidance as "merging-innovation", a code-word for taking technologies from somewhere - perhaps from different sources - and optimizing them by small tweaks and modifications. In any event, the performance claimed for CTCS-3 is markedly higher than what you cite as "the most" ETCS-2 is able to do so far: on the wuhan-guangzhou line trains are supposed to be able to run every 3 minutes.


----------



## HunanChina

张曙光：武广正式运营前已试运行100万公里

Mr. Zhang(General Engineer of MoR) said: CRH Wuhan-Guangzhou line has been test running for 1 million km with ten or more HSR train before commercial service. The speed of 390km/h is safe, and 350km/h is safe too.


Wuhan-Guangzhou CRH line send out a test HSR train(CRH5) every early morning to detect a lot of data and ensure it's safety.

This is Test Train(CRH5). The color is yellow.


----------



## Ariel74

flierfy said:


> Japanese and European engineers have developed this technology for several decades. You don't really want to make us believe that a few modifications made by Chinese engineers in a few months pushed the economical feasibility significantly. It seems to me that you are the only smug in here.


I am not wanting anyone to believe anything. It is rather Papagei wanting me _not_ to believe what the chinese are apparently saying they were going to do. Well, my suggestion was, wait and see. How is it smug to suggest that we not rush to conclusions before person X had the time to show he could do what he promised to do??? May I suggest looking up the word "smug" in the nearest dictionary? ;-)


----------



## gincan

Ariel74 said:


> I couldn't find that issue of the IRJ, as it is more than two and half years ago. This would however be in a way compatible with the chinese sources, insofar as the chinese describe what they did in the area of control and guidance as "merging-innovation", a code-word for taking technologies from somewhere - perhaps from different sources - and optimizing them by small tweaks and modifications. In any event, the performance claimed for CTCS-3 is markedly higher than what you cite as "the most" ETCS-2 is able to do so far: on the wuhan-guangzhou line trains are supposed to be able to run every 3 minutes.


When level 2 i fully functional trains will be able to run every 2,5 minutes, the performance for CTCS-3 and ETCS-2 are exactly the same, they are the same systems.

Took me half a minute to digg up the press release, IRJ sep issue 07
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/sb/irj0907/#/44

*Bombardier secures E66 million Chinese ERTMS contract.*

China Railway Signaling and Communications has awarded Bombardier a euro 66 million contract to install, test and commision the European Traffic Managment System (ERTMS) on the 1000km Wuhan-Guangzhou line. Bombardier will install Interflo 450 equipment by january 2010 when a fleet of 60 trains will start operating with ERTMS Level 2. Bombardier will supply 120 onboard systems for 60 highspeed trains and nine radio block centers. It will also provide support on interface specifications and interoperability.


----------



## HunanChina

Guangzhou South Railway Station(The bigest Railway Station of South China)

The hub station of CRH Wuhan-Guangzhou(a part of Beijing-Guangzhou line) and Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hongkong line.


----------



## makita09

Ariel74 said:


> Well, if you cannot even read, or read well enough to know what I wrote and what I did not write, then I don't see a point in responding to your ravings. Please, take them elsewhere.





Ariel74 said:


> There IS such a thing as limits to available technology....technology as existing in Europe does not seem to allow safe and economic operation of trains at the speed of 350km/h.



You don't see any point in responding to my ravings because you cannot justify yourself. Don't make claims and then feign misrepresentation when rebutted.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

HunanChina said:


> CRH Guangzhou-Changsha Timetable Version 2009.12.28
> 
> 
> 车次, 始发站, 终点站, 车辆类型, 发站, 发时, 　到站, 到时, 停站, 历时, 硬座, 软座, 硬卧中, 软卧下
> G1022	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	07:00	长沙南	09:15	4	02:15	312	499	-	-





HunanChina said:


> G6004	广州北	长沙南	高速动车	广州北	17:00	长沙南	19:43	8	02:43	312	499	-	-





HunanChina said:


> G1058	广州北	　武汉	高速动车	广州北	19:20	长沙南	21:28	3	02:08	312	499	-	-
> G6008	广州北	长沙南	高速动车	广州北	19:50	长沙南	22:26	7	02:36	312	499	-	-
> G6010	广州北	长沙南	高速动车	广州北	20:35	长沙南	22:57	5	02:22	312	499	-	-
> 
> 
> 
> So, the ticket price(Guangzhou-Changsha) is 312RMB(second class) and 499RMB(first class), travel time is about 2 hours 20 minutes.


I observe that:
All the trains Guangzhou-Changsha, with different trip times (2:08 to 2:43) cost exact same price.

If you need to spend a day in Guangzhou, you can leave as late as 20:35 and arrive in Changsha at 22:57. But the first time to arrive in Changsha in the morning is 9:15, so even if you would get up early, you still arrive late in the morning in Changsha. I suppose most jobs in Changsha begin before 10 o´clock in the morning?

If you have a trip Guangzhou-Changsha and then Changsha-Wuhan, is the price combined as much as the ticket price Guangzhou-Wuhan?


----------



## HunanChina

chornedsnorkack said:


> I observe that:
> All the trains Guangzhou-Changsha, with different trip times (2:08 to 2:43) cost exact same price.
> 
> If you need to spend a day in Guangzhou, you can leave as late as 20:35 and arrive in Changsha at 22:57. But the first time to arrive in Changsha in the morning is 9:15, so even if you would get up early, you still arrive late in the morning in Changsha. I suppose most jobs in Changsha begin before 10 o´clock in the morning?
> 
> If you have a trip Guangzhou-Changsha and then Changsha-Wuhan, is the price combined as much as the ticket price Guangzhou-Wuhan?


It's same price. the ticket price is calculate by traveling length. But, if take a 250km/h line train, the ticket price halve. take the old line, ticket price cheaper.

The CRH Wuhan-Guangzhou is 350km/h, CRH Wuhan-Hefei is 250km/h. 

There is an old railway between Guangzhou and Changsha, the speed under 200km/h(maybe 120km/h), so, many passenger could choose have a sleep in the slow train at last night and get to Changsha in next day morning.











The train on old railway system.

sleeper 



















I think the ticket of CRH high-speed is too expensive, especially the 350km/h line. The sleeper ticket of old railway train is more economy.


----------



## Ariel74

makita09 said:


> You don't see any point in responding to my ravings because you cannot justify yourself. Don't make claims and then feign misrepresentation when rebutted.


Normally, you'd have to pay me a fee to get me to teach you how to read and reason logically. But since I am a nice guy, will do it for you this time, but it will be the only time.

First of all, "as existing in Europe": it is a fact that no regular commercial service in Europe currently sustains the speed of 350km/h. It may be for immature development of the signaling system ETCS-2, but it may also due to other factors. Others may be saying that it will also not be possible in some future point in time, but I am certainly not.

Second, the sentence you quoted me was written in the context of my response to Foxmulder's crude and inarticulate post about the apparently limitless technological advances. There are, as anyone paying any attention in the forum would know, people who argue there are some intrinsic limitations to the kind of technologies used in today's trains, to the effect that trains built using them will never safely and economically run at the speed of 350km/h or above. I was simply acknowledging that there are no a priori grounds to rule such arguments out of court, and that it's infantile to respond to such arguments by comparing them, as Foxmulder (and you) did, to hypothetical doubts about building a skyscraper of 600meter height. That is why I said "it seems", acknowledging the very intelligibility of doubt, while distancing myself from the specific claims these doubters were making.

Of course if you had read my other posts at all, you'd know I am inclined to _disagree_ with them. But being a reader as observant and sensitive as you are, you'd never notice it in a million years.


----------



## makita09

Ariel74 said:


> Normally, you'd have to pay me a fee to get me to teach you how to read and reason logically.


Don't worry, I don't need your version of logic. If you know it on paper then practice it.



> First of all, "as existing in Europe": it is a fact that no regular commercial service in Europe currently sustains the speed of 350km/h. It may be for immature development of the signaling system ETCS-2, but it may also due to other factors.


Thanks for coming down to the discussion. Yes, you have stated a fact. It is likely down to the signalling system. You are stating a hypothetical in that it may be down to other factors. What other factors? And forgive me but you give the impression you feel such (unstated) issues as unsurmountable, even in the short term, without providing a reason.



> Others may be saying that it will also not be possible in some future point in time, but I am certainly not.


And they haven't given any reasons either.



> Second, the sentence you quoted me was written in the context of my response to Foxmulder's crude and inarticulate post about the apparently limitless technological advances. There are, as anyone paying any attention in the forum would know, people who argue there are some intrinsic limitations to the kind of technologies used in today's trains, to the effect that trains built using them will never safely and economically run at the speed of 350km/h or above. *I was simply acknowledging that there are no a priori grounds to rule such arguments out of court,*


Anyone who has been about long enough knows that every time this argument is made about some arbitrary barrier it is always eventually broken. Inductive reasoning. A closer look at how each of those barriers were broken it is seen how the issue actually had nothing to do with the arbitrary barrier but some element(s) to do with individual engineering issues and some basic physics. For example, we can't make steel stronger than x, it is a fundenmental limitation of steel. Until of course someone makes a stronger one by adding some tin.




> and that it's infantile to respond to such arguments by comparing them, as Foxmulder (and you) did, to hypothetical doubts about building a skyscraper of 600meter height.


apart from they are not infantile comparisons, they actually occured, and from some apparently intelligent people throughout the decades, therefore they are totally relevant to this cnversation.



> That is why I said "it seems", acknowledging the very intelligibility of doubt, while distancing myself from the specific claims these doubters were making.


There are loads of doubters. Its nearly all ignorance wrapped up in hyperbole, and, pertinent to this thread, China bashing.

What you did was take the _possibility_ as being significantly valid, and whilst there is a possibility that the sun won't come up tomorrow, if I said as such and Foxmulder said "Don't be silly, it always came up before!" would you respond to him the same?




> But since I am a nice guy....





> But being a reader as observant and sensitive as you are, you'd never notice it in a million years.


hmmmm.


----------



## foxmulder

Ariel74 said:


> We know that the technology of CHR3 used in the new line is largely based on German technology, and that technology as existing in Europe does not seem to allow safe and economic operation of trains at the speed of 350km/h.


You are WRONG!

Technology exists, infrastructure and political will does not.


----------



## foxmulder

HunanChina said:


> The station is uncompleted, so, just few of photos I can search.


Thanks anyway. Great updates...


----------



## Ariel74

foxmulder said:


> You are WRONG!
> 
> Technology exists, infrastructure and political will does not.


Well, some of the political will has to do with the will to _develop_ technology to begin with. 

But I am not going to engage myself in another debate with people who aren't able to make the most basic of distinctions and to read and understand anything more than crude metaphors and slogans and to write anything other than blanket claims and accusations. Have fun with Maketa and such, they play your pubertal game.


----------



## Ariel74

makita09 said:


> Don't worry, I don't need your version of logic. If you know it on paper then practice it.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for coming down to the discussion. Yes, you have stated a fact. It is likely down to the signalling system. You are stating a hypothetical in that it may be down to other factors. What other factors? And forgive me but you give the impression you feel such (unstated) issues as unsurmountable, even in the short term, without providing a reason.
> 
> 
> 
> And they haven't given any reasons either.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who has been about long enough knows that every time this argument is made about some arbitrary barrier it is always eventually broken. Inductive reasoning. A closer look at how each of those barriers were broken it is seen how the issue actually had nothing to do with the arbitrary barrier but some element(s) to do with individual engineering issues and some basic physics. For example, we can't make steel stronger than x, it is a fundenmental limitation of steel. Until of course someone makes a stronger one by adding some tin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apart from they are not infantile comparisons, they actually occured, and from some apparently intelligent people throughout the decades, therefore they are totally relevant to this cnversation.
> 
> 
> 
> There are loads of doubters. Its nearly all ignorance wrapped up in hyperbole, and, pertinent to this thread, China bashing.
> 
> What you did was take the _possibility_ as being significantly valid, and whilst there is a possibility that the sun won't come up tomorrow, if I said as such and Foxmulder said "Don't be silly, it always came up before!" would you respond to him the same?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hmmmm.


Suffice it to say I have wasted enough of my time. Keep enjoying yourself with that torrent vapidity sprinkled over with mangled logic.


----------



## Ariel74

HunanChina said:


> It's same price. the ticket price is calculate by traveling length. But, if take a 250km/h line train, the ticket price halve. take the old line, ticket price cheaper.
> 
> The CRH Wuhan-Guangzhou is 350km/h, CRH Wuhan-Hefei is 250km/h.
> 
> There is an old railway between Guangzhou and Changsha, the speed under 200km/h(maybe 120km/h), so, many passenger could choose have a sleep in the slow train at last night and get to Changsha in next day morning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The train on old railway system.
> 
> sleeper
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the ticket of CRH high-speed is too expensive, especially the 350km/h line. The sleeper ticket of old railway train is more economy.



I have a question: the second of the two pictures is presumably of a "soft-sleeper" cabin, does each such cabin contain only _two_ beds? And it is still about 30Yuan cheaper than the 2-hour express train? The "Schlafwagen" in Germany can be more expensive than an express train.


----------



## foxmulder

Ariel74 said:


> Well, some of the political will has to do with the will to _develop_ technology to begin with.
> 
> But I am not going to engage myself in another debate with people who aren't able to make the most basic of distinctions and to read and understand anything more than crude metaphors and slogans and to write anything other than blanket claims and accusations. Have fun with Maketa and such, they play your pubertal game.


good. 

we'll wave to you from 350km/h trains..


----------



## Nozumi 300

Thanks for the amazing updates and pictures. I also wanted to say that it's interesting to see that the MOR has adopted the Japanese Yellow Doctor  (p.s notice how they sacraficed a CRH5 for the purpose of checking the line instead of using a CRH2 or 3 lol)


----------



## danchun




----------



## chornedsnorkack

Ariel74 said:


> I have a question: the second of the two pictures is presumably of a "soft-sleeper" cabin, does each such cabin contain only _two_ beds? And it is still about 30Yuan cheaper than the 2-hour express train? The "Schlafwagen" in Germany can be more expensive than an express train.



The definitions are:

"Hard sleeper" - actually it is upholstered. No door between aisle and compartment, and 6 beds in a compartment, 3 on each side. The lower beds are most expensive and upper beds are cheapest.

"Soft sleeper" - compartments have doors, and 4 beds in compartment, 2 on each side. Again upper beds are cheaper.

"Deluxe soft sleeper" - only 2 beds in compartment. But those are lower and upper bed, not 2 beds both lower, On the side opposite of the beds there are chairs or something. Very few trains have these.

But I think that Beijing-Hong Kong trains do have deluxe soft sleeper. Do those stop in Changsha?


----------



## makita09

Ariel74 said:


> Well, some of the political will has to do with the will to _develop_ technology to begin with.
> 
> But I am not going to engage myself in another debate with people who aren't able to make the most basic of distinctions and to read and understand anything more than crude metaphors and slogans and to write anything other than blanket claims and accusations. Have fun with Maketa and such, they play your pubertal game.


You have distinguished yourself as an uninformed patronising fool. Take it from someone who has followed intently rail technology for decades that you are quite frankly making it all up in your head. You may believe you are being rational, you aren't. You may not wish to engage with me, but if you fill this thread with any more unjustified nonsense I will rebutt it for all to see.


----------



## Scion

danchun said:


>


 Which side of Wuhan station is this located at? The scene is insane!


----------



## makita09

Ariel74 said:


> One of the reasons the CHR3 runs faster is because they put 16 cars together to achieve more power. They need to do that because there are a lot more people to transport than in Europe.


In Europe two ICE3 units, either in Germany or Spain, are often paired together into 16 cars. As is done with TGVs. It does nothing to increase the top speed - the majority of friction is rolling and wind resistance, of which the wind resistance from the front is only a very small proportion. Power to weight ratio remains the same, and so does power to friction ratio within 1 or 2%.

The reason they run faster is because they are later more advanced models than the German ones, of which the Spanich ones are also an evolution.


----------



## typhoon_wolf

HunanChina said:


> OMG! Your logic is so funny.
> Shanghai-Hangzhou Maglev(450km/h+) will start to construct soon.


Mistake: It seems that this message is false. Or at least, this will come true in a very long period.

The cost of the Maglev system is too expensive to China because China haven't obtained the necessary technology(Siemens obtains this technology). As this result, Chinese-Gov do not like really Maglev.


----------



## typhoon_wolf

octopusop said:


> China is shameless in domestic propagating.
> All of CRH tek were buying from Japan and German (Italy kicked off), MoR claimed that wholly autonomation intellectual property.
> 
> Did you see a dirty govt. before?
> 
> 
> Chinese govt dare to lose face in dirty shame.


As this result, "CRH"(China Railway High-speed) had ever been called as "Chi Ru Hao"(the Chinese prenunciation of "Shame Express").

CRH2A is 4M4T verision of Japaness Shinkansen E2-1000.
CRH2A has top operating speed of 250km/h and a speed label painted as 200km/h.

CRH3 is Velaro-CN, customized from Velaro platform.
CRH3 has top operating speed of 330~350km/h and a speed label painted as 300km/h.

The earlier CRH orders are grouped in to "pack"s. Each pack contains 20 set of CRH.
* The 1st train set in a pack is shipped from the original country.
* And then 2 sets shipped in as components, then assembled in China.
* The remained 17 sets are produced in China with the tech-support from the original country.

As I know, the MoR of China ordered 3 packs of CRH2A and 3 packs of CRH3.


----------



## typhoon_wolf

HunanChina said:


> Tianxingzhou Road Rail Bridge on Yangtze River 天兴洲长江大桥(铁路公路两用桥)
> 
> 4 railway lines and CRH train can cross the Bridge with 350km/h.


... Not exactly. As I know, this bridge can just take 250km/h of CRHs in daily running.
TianXingZhou bridge is one speed-limited area of BeiJing-WuHan high-speed railway.
Every CRH will stop at WuHan station or pass WuHan station at a low speed, 250km/h is enough.
But 250km/h is enough to make this bridge as "super bridge".


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## chornedsnorkack

BarbaricManchurian said:


> there's still the bus which is generally cheaper, since there's competition, and even the ultra poor in China can save the 55RMB (about 4 hours' wages) over the course of a month to go somewhere if they really have to do it. Most people in China have substantial savings, and it is very rare that someone doesn't have savings or can't ask for money from their family.


Let us count the options. Picking the line Guangzhou-Changsha, because at thread:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1014837&page=10

HunanChina was so kind as to provide an excerpt of a timetable.

Suppose that you were in Guangzhou on a business trip or working weekdays, get done in the evening (or Friday evening) and want to return to Changsha by next morning (or Saturday morning).

You can fly. 1:30 in the air, plus time spent in airport, plus getting to and from airports. The price is said to be typically RMB800 in coach. Probably more in business class which also is an option.

You could take CRH. Morning train G1022 takes 2:15, arrives 9:15.

First class seat costs RMB499 - just 60% of airfare and gives better seat. Second class seat costs RMB312 - under 40 % of coach ticket and roughly as comfortable. But train is always more comfortable than plane, because there is no buckling for takeoff and landing.

Or you can take slow train overnight.

Except for K437/K436 (perhaps it takes a different, longer route?) the K trains have the same price. K9004 departs 23:34, arrives in Changsha 7:48, after 8:14.

The most expensive ticket is lower soft sleeper. RMB 276. It saves RMB 36 from the RMB 312 of G train, and also saves the hotel night in Guangzhou (How much is it, for ordinary Chinese?).

A bed can be has on those K trains for RMB 172 (upper hard sleeper). And hard seats are available (RMB 99).

There are even cheaper trains. Lower soft sleeper is offered on K9078 (8:20 trip) for RMB 203. And on train 1296/1297, taking 9:47, lower soft sleeper costs RMB 170 - RMB 2 cheaper than upper hard sleeper on most K trains.

Upper hard sleeper on 1296/1297 costs RMB 101 - RMB 2 more than hard seat on most K trains. And a hard seat on 1296/1297 is RMB 49.

Guangzhou-Changsha is about 600 km. How much would bus ticket typically cost?


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## Papagei

33Hz said:


> I'm not sure about their rail industry, but certainly Chinese steel makers did deliver something new for the construction of the Olympic stadium.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, someone should tell Alstom [1], Siemens [2], Talgo [3] and Bombardier [4] that they are wasting their time or telling porkies.
> 
> 1 - http://www.transport.alstom.com/hom...eId=EN&dir=/home/elibrary/technical/products/
> 
> AGV is or has been marketed to potential rival operators to Eurostar as offering a 2 hour London to Paris time. That means 360km/h on LGV Nord. In fact, AGV does have new bogies which performed far better than expected on the record runs.
> 
> 2 - Siemens now market the Velaro as being 360km/h capable: http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mob...ons/highspeed_and_intercity_trains/velaro.htm
> 
> 3 - http://www.elperiodico.com/default....ioma=CAS&idnoticia_PK=549641&idseccio_PK=1021
> 
> 4 - http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-orders-380-kmh-zefiro-high-speed-trains.html


Something about speed again:
There is no hard limit for speed between 349 km/h and 350 km/h. It is a gliding limit and we all know that trains like velaro have reached speeds up to 400 km/h. Beeing able to reach such a speed for 3 hours doesn´t mean the train can run it safely for decades. 
The material of the trains can bear certain changing forces nearly infinitely often. If you raise the force you reach a point above which your wheel will break after x force changes. The value of x is nothing certain, you can only claim probabilities due to differences in manufacturing process. Fact is that at speeds like 350 km/h x is very low, meaning that the time after which we can´t exclude that the part breaks down went to one tenth of lower speeds. 

What the suppliers did when claiming that their trains can safely run 360 km/h is simply changing conditions, not the bogies. The mentioned SF 500 bogies from velaro are more than ten years old. There is nothing new about them, they are simply beeing pushed harder and as the european railways know about that fact, they don´t do it. You CAN go 350 km/h but it is not economically useful since material is breaking down to fast. The 360 km/h is simply marketing, it is funny how all suppliers now claim their trains can do 360 km/h. Why the hell exactly 360 km/h? . 
And do you really believe Spain is not running 350 km/h because the signallingsystem is not capable to control this. The upgrade for the signalling system costs as much as one single train. If China can afford and implement such a signalling system, Spain can too. But they know that it is not useful because they learned that 350 km/h is possible but not useful. 

Ariel has made the best point about this issue: Let´s wait and see. Up to now no country in the world is running 350 km/h in daily service for several years and with many trains. The Peking-Route only uses 5 trains at 350 km/h for prestige reasons and gathering experience. All other trains on that route are running slower. We´ll see... But don´t believe every marketing sentence


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## typhoon_wolf

New message: BAD(or broken) SERVICE...

One or two CRHs on WuHan-GuangZhou high speed line had been delayed for a long time, and the passengers suffered an unhappy time.

I am figuring more information about this.


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## makita09

Papagei - Whilst the crux of your argument makes sense, the resolution of the equation is alittle bit funny. Stress on the various components increases exponentially with speed, with the main base factor being weight. I don't get how you surmise the one-tenth bit - if you could rephrase that because I dont understand precisely.

Probabilities would suggest that the statistical failure rate would increase exponentially with speed, all other factors being equal. This would also suggest that this increase in failure rate can be mitigated by adjusting other parameters, such as vehicle weight and changes in suspension design.

It would also suggest that if the maintenance regime was increased the probability of failure can be mitigated this way. Economically sensible is another matter. I would also stress that catastrophic failure is unlikely, as it is with airplanes. Small failures are picked up on before an accident can occur. So it is merely a an economic question, not a safety one.

Now the ICE3 axle weight is 16t, which compares poorly with the new Japanese ones at 11t. There is easily scope for reducing weight, the simplest of all engineering concepts in theory. 

All aluminium construction, activation of primary suspension to reduce vibration on wheen and bogie, strengthening and lightening of the bogie design (Bombardier, Alstom and Siemens have gone throguh this process) are all available avenues, and things are going this way. 

The Chinese don't have access to better materials than Europe, but it'll be along time before anybody takes full advantage of available materials, in the rail industry that is. It has hitherto been uneconomic to use aluminium everywhere, but this is now even being used for slow commuter train more and more for efficiency and is more viable option because of it - economies of scale.

Yes, we shall see. The Spanish need to wait for the signalling. Perhaps they need to arrange a suitable maintenance regime once the signalling allows it. The Japanese eased away from 360km/h as it was a big step, it pushed the tilting requirements quite a long way as the track is designed for 275km/h, and operationally its quite hard get the best out of it if there are still loads of 275km/h slower trains. The AVG however will be built as planned for 360km/h. I see no reason to doubt that, no concrete reason anyway.


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## Hopobcn

Papagei said:


> (....)And do you really believe Spain is not running 350 km/h because the signallingsystem is not capable to control this. The upgrade for the signalling system costs as much as one single train. (...) But they know that it is not useful because they learned that 350 km/h is possible but not useful.


http://www.heraldo.es/noticias/el_a...ircular_350_entre_madrid_zaragoza_lerida.html
Mmm i don't know if "Fomento" has learned something but they are implementing the ERTMS level 2.
A popular sentence in spain : "las cosas de palacio van despacio" :lol:


> (...) The speed increase from 300 to 350 km/h for passenger operation, however, is a decision that depends on "fomento" and for the moment is not taken. The previous ministerial team, with Magdalena Álvarez to the head, resigned over two years ago to express the benefits of the Corridor and the fleet gained. "Average speeds for all high speed lines will be 300 kilometers per hour," said Alvarez in May 2007 when the AVE between Madrid and Tarragona reached that level for the first time.
> Officially, the ADIF only said Friday that the evidence level 2 traffic management system ERTMS (European Rail Traffic Management System) are "very well", although sources said they involved railroad after nearly three years of intense work the fleet of trains ADIF no failures recorded in the Madrid-Lleida. Trials are underway in various high-speed corridors, although in Zaragoza (the first in which was introduced) where reliability is now beyond doubt. Apart from the staff of the public body technicians involved technology companies involved in the development of high speed, such as Ansaldo, Dimetronic, Siemens and Thales. (...)


----------



## typhoon_wolf

WuHan-GuangZhou high speed line is good.
Th trains are good.
But the service is not so good.

According to some news reports and the information from a Chinese railway-fans BBS:

Time: 2009-12-29 14:5?.
Train: G1048(CRH2C, from GuangZhou North station to WuHan station).

Someone smoked in the passenger area of the train and activated the smoke/fire detector.
This made the train into a "protection" status, can not depart(official information).
Then some technicians came to solve the problem.

This is just a small incident. But during the first 20 minutes, there were no information to these passengers. None of the managers came out to tell passengers the truth, and no one came out to move the passengers to another train.

At 15:5?, some passengers asked the service master of G1048 to open the doors for riding another train or reimburse the ticked, but the service master refused.

More information is still under translating...


----------



## zergcerebrates

KB said:


> One thing though, why is that LCD facing the camera and opposite the seating arrangement? I know there is one on the other side too but isnt this one a waste?
> 
> Also the seating is in one direction...what happens on the return journey....revolving seats? doesnt look like it though.



The seats revolve.

BTW, Great job China!


----------



## typhoon_wolf

...(something bad happened, but not easy to translate)

At about 17:00, the message for passengers came finally: take the G6004 train(CRH3) by G1048 tickets.

Most of the passengers from G1048 got their seat, but the passengers who took G6004 tickets had to stand during the journey. All the passengers felt been tricked, and some of them blocked the train form departing.

Then the managers and the leaders of the station or railway system came out.

...(not easy to translate)

At about 18:00, G6004 departed.

This incident caused the delay of at least 5 CRHs. But no one came out to apologize or response.


----------



## Papagei

makita09 said:


> Papagei - Whilst the crux of your argument makes sense, the resolution of the equation is alittle bit funny. Stress on the various components increases exponentially with speed, with the main base factor being weight. I don't get how you surmise the one-tenth bit - if you could rephrase that because I dont understand precisely.
> 
> Probabilities would suggest that the statistical failure rate would increase exponentially with speed, all other factors being equal. This would also suggest that this increase in failure rate can be mitigated by adjusting other parameters, such as vehicle weight and changes in suspension design.
> 
> It would also suggest that if the maintenance regime was increased the probability of failure can be mitigated this way. Economically sensible is another matter. I would also stress that catastrophic failure is unlikely, as it is with airplanes. Small failures are picked up on before an accident can occur. So it is merely a an economic question, not a safety one.
> 
> Now the ICE3 axle weight is 16t, which compares poorly with the new Japanese ones at 11t. There is easily scope for reducing weight, the simplest of all engineering concepts in theory.
> 
> All aluminium construction, activation of primary suspension to reduce vibration on wheen and bogie, strengthening and lightening of the bogie design (Bombardier, Alstom and Siemens have gone throguh this process) are all available avenues, and things are going this way.
> 
> The Chinese don't have access to better materials than Europe, but it'll be along time before anybody takes full advantage of available materials, in the rail industry that is. It has hitherto been uneconomic to use aluminium everywhere, but this is now even being used for slow commuter train more and more for efficiency and is more viable option because of it - economies of scale.
> 
> Yes, we shall see. The Spanish need to wait for the signalling. Perhaps they need to arrange a suitable maintenance regime once the signalling allows it. The Japanese eased away from 360km/h as it was a big step, it pushed the tilting requirements quite a long way as the track is designed for 275km/h, and operationally its quite hard get the best out of it if there are still loads of 275km/h slower trains. The AVG however will be built as planned for 360km/h. I see no reason to doubt that, no concrete reason anyway.



The one tenth bit is just a guess since I didn´t claim to which "lower speed" I was comparing. You also can not say that the time until a wheel breaks down is going down exponantially by speed. This is a very compley issue but I think it is enough if one knows that from a certain point of stress, longterm stability is not given any more despite the fact that the system can bear the stress for several hours. For example in the TGV-Testrun of 573 km/h. Many people believe this can be reproduced in daily service. It only can if you change wheels, axles and overhead wires every day. 

This leads to your next point: Yes increase in failure rate can be mitigated by adjusting other parameters, such as vehicle weight and changes in suspension design or an increase in maintenance. I alread mentioned that before. 
I would say it is mainly an economic question but also a safety question. If you run 350-400km/h you can compensate the occuring problems by checking very often and replacing parts very often. But you still have the problem that the whole system is always running closer to its limit. So if something beyond normal stress happens, for example a piece of metal on the rail, your system directly breakes down. And as we in general come closer to the point of material failure it is statistically more likely that a part fails within your check interval despite the fact that you check more often. The most extreme example is overload. You can check every 2 seconds, if you are running close to overload every second wheel breaks statistically. 

From an economic point of view there are many other factors which keep you away from running 350 or 380 km/h. The rails wear out much faster, the overheadwire wears out faster, energy consumption grows by square, sound pressure level extremely grows. All those factors lead to the experience that current high speed rail systems are most efficient between 250 and 300 km/h. You get more ticket income by increasing speed but there is an optimum beyond which the travel time hardly changes at higher speed but costs explode. This is why we might see 350 km/h in some minor cases of prestige and long distance trips but the majority of high speed connections won´t go beyond 300 km/h. If you really wanna go 400-500 km/h you need a maglev and even maglev doesn´t solve all problems. Maglev doesn´t have a safety or maintenance problem at 500 km/h but energy consumption also for maglev grows at the square of speed. 

And what does it mean if AGV is built for 360 km/h? None of the problems I mentioned has been solved by AGV. It simply means that the train is certified and allowed to run 360 km/h. It is still economically not useful and it will stay a curiosity that someone uses the 360 km/h. We don´t need faster trains and all that prestige nonsense. We need more efficient trains at 300 km/h and cheaper rolling stock and infrastructure. 

Just a hint: If you compare axle load of japanese trains and european trains, be careful to compare on the same basis. European trains are comparing fully loaded while japanese compare empty trains. Japanese trains are intented to run 20 years while european trains have to run 30 years. In japan, high speed trains are running on dedicated tracks while in europe they are sharing old tracks in bad condition with freight rail. All those factors lead to differences.


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## makita09

Papagei said:


> The one tenth bit is just a guess since I didn´t claim to which "lower speed" I was comparing. You also can not say that the time until a wheel breaks down is going down exponantially by speed. This is a very compley issue but I think it is enough if one knows that from a certain point of stress, longterm stability is not given any more despite the fact that the system can bear the stress for several hours. For example in the TGV-Testrun of 573 km/h. Many people believe this can be reproduced in daily service. It only can if you change wheels, axles and overhead wires every day.


Yes but there is no point in any system below which performance is assumed as you appear to be suggesting. A TGV that only runs at 160km/h (as the TGVs out of Gare Du L'Est did for years beofre LGV Est was constructed) still need to be checked for stress fractures and fatigue.

I am saying that the _probablility_ of time to failure decreases (or rate of wear increases) inversely proportionally to the exponential increase in speed [all other things being equal].

There are no absolutes in engineering, only in operational detail. Every elkement will be risk assessed and the total system designation will be within the sensible risk cause by the weakest element in the system.

Again I don't quite follow what you mean by checking the wheel every 2 seconds, but the safety issue is such that even if running at higher speeds does increase the likelihood of catastrophic failure at high speeds I suggest that a maintenance regime can be formulated to keep the risk of this the same - after all it could happen on trains that run at only 200km/h and must be factored in on risk assessment.

Yes the economic issue I accept, extra energy consumption and wear is the barrier - the same barrier that engineers faced at 100km/h in the 1850s. Nonethesless it is a real one. New contact bar technology is reducing wear on contact cable, and this area of the industry is moving forward quite rapidly. Rail wear is not moving so fast, nonethelss it is a combination of unsprung weight and suspension stiffness that dictates most of the wear to the railheads and wheels. Whilst not returning the same gains as other areas, advances in wheel latheing maintenance techniques, as well as more rigourous wheel and track geometry regimes, especially using laser guidance for accuracy, are eeking this forward, getting cleaner motion and reducing wear at a given speed.

We don't know what it means that AGV is built for 360km/h, and your opinions about the redundency of the specifications are not enough for me to depart form the recieved wisdom on the matter.

Re axle weights, I will verify later but I believe I'm quoting unladen weights for both. Even still, a fully laden axle weight for a latest 700 series is no more than 14t, with 100 per car and lots of luggage.


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## Papagei

Well you are right, as time goes on technology advances and one day we will be able to run 350-400 km/h in an economically viable manner.

I was just saying doing this with todays technology (which is also the technology China has acesss to) is not useful and not as safe as running slower.


----------



## 33Hz

Papagei said:


> And what does it mean if AGV is built for 360 km/h? None of the problems I mentioned has been solved by AGV. It simply means that the train is certified and allowed to run 360 km/h. It is still economically not useful and it will stay a curiosity that someone uses the 360 km/h. We don´t need faster trains and all that prestige nonsense. We need more efficient trains at 300 km/h and cheaper rolling stock and infrastructure.





Papagei said:


> Well you are right, as time goes on technology advances and one day we will be able to run 350-400 km/h in an economically viable manner.
> 
> I was just saying doing this with todays technology (which is also the technology China has acesss to) is not useful and not as safe as running slower.



You are contradicting yourself. Alstom has said that AGV is designed from the ground up to offer the energy use and economics of a 300km/h TGV when travelling at 360km/h. It will be able to travel safely at 360km/h on any railway designed originally for 300km/h. That's exactly the "one day" you talk about in the second post.

See more here: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...s-capacity-and-performance-to-the-market.html


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## makita09

33Hz said:


> AGV...It will be able to travel safely at 360km/h on any railway designed originally for 300km/h.


Alignment and signalling permitting of course. The train might be safe but the passengers may fall over if walking about hitting a 300km/h corner at 360km/h without tilt support.


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## makita09

Papagei said:


> Well you are right, as time goes on technology advances and one day we will be able to run 350-400 km/h in an economically viable manner.
> 
> I was just saying doing this with todays technology (which is also the technology China has acesss to) is not useful and not as safe as running slower.


Well its a general rule of thumb that engineering tends to be at its most efficient at two-thirds to three-quarters of 'the limit'. This is probably no doubt true of the AGV as well, even though it is as energy efficient at 360km/h as a previous gen was at 300km/h. Nonetheless the efficiency at operational speed is the important bit.


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## worldrailfan

HunanChina,

thanks for your scheduale post.

I wonder why this link http://www.chinatraintickets.net/china-trains/
never shows G6xxx trains you are listing?


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## altachlo87

well, china's railways is developing in outrageous speed! within 20years, china will be a leading nation in this field i presume! anyhow, this is absolutely good.


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## Papagei

33Hz said:


> You are contradicting yourself. Alstom has said that AGV is designed from the ground up to offer the energy use and economics of a 300km/h TGV when travelling at 360km/h. It will be able to travel safely at 360km/h on any railway designed originally for 300km/h. That's exactly the "one day" you talk about in the second post.
> 
> See more here: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...s-capacity-and-performance-to-the-market.html


Unfortunately this is not that "one day" I was talking about. If you really wanna go on you need single suspended wheels. But the wheels and Bogies in AGV are of the same technology we already know. Maybe the bogies are slightly more lightweight but they are far away from a "breakthrough". 

Just citing your linked article from railwaygazette: 



Railwaygazette said:


> The AGV's trailer bogies are 'more conventional', and *wheelsets and axles are similar to those on the TGV Duplex*.


As I said, important components are simply beeing pushed harder. This means that the new train needs an increased maintenance regime in this field.

Of course AGV is a great train and it certainly will be more efficient than TGV (which was anything but efficient ) but the claims about higher speed are relatively useless for customers.


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## HunanChina

worldrailfan said:


> HunanChina,
> 
> thanks for your scheduale post.
> 
> I wonder why this link http://www.chinatraintickets.net/china-trains/
> never shows G6xxx trains you are listing?


You're welcome

It's a latest scheduale(Version 2009.12.28), maybe that link is Version 2009.12.26, they have some different. The Wuhan-Guangzhou line is into commercial service just in a couple of days, some adjustment is necessary.

PS:G6XXX just from Changsha to Guangzhou or from Guangzhou to Changsha.


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## HunanChina

chornedsnorkack said:


> The definitions are:
> 
> "Hard sleeper" - actually it is upholstered. No door between aisle and compartment, and 6 beds in a compartment, 3 on each side. The lower beds are most expensive and upper beds are cheapest.
> 
> "Soft sleeper" - compartments have doors, and 4 beds in compartment, 2 on each side. Again upper beds are cheaper.
> 
> "Deluxe soft sleeper" - only 2 beds in compartment. But those are lower and upper bed, not 2 beds both lower, On the side opposite of the beds there are chairs or something. Very few trains have these.
> 
> But I think that Beijing-Hong Kong trains do have deluxe soft sleeper. Do those stop in Changsha?



Beijing-Hongkong(T98 九龙-北京西) have deluxe soft sleeper? I have no ieda, but I sure it stop in Changsha.
I just know the Z18 from Changsha to Beijing have deluxe soft sleeper(VIP soft sleeper).


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## worldrailfan

HunanChina,

Where do you find that scheduale.The link I sent you will not show G6xxxx those trains even between those 2 cities you are listing.


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## HunanChina

worldrailfan said:


> HunanChina,
> 
> Where do you find that scheduale.The link I sent you will not show G6xxxx those trains even between those 2 cities you are listing.



It's a software(only 690KB and free). You can download it at this website.
http://www.jpskb.com/down.htm

but the website only in Simplified Chinese. If you understand some Chinese, find the first "[本地下载]", then click left button of mouse.:cheers:

PS:the software can update. if the latest timetable release, you can receive a message.


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## HunanChina

deleted


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## Skybean

Highspeed rail train stalled for 3 hours with over a thousand passengers due to a single cigarette smoked by a passenger.


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## HunanChina

deleted


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## HunanChina

deleted


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## HunanChina

deleted


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## HunanChina

deleted


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## HunanChina

deleted


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## HunanChina

deleted


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## HunanChina

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## HunanChina

deleted


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## IcyUrmel

Corporate.slave said:


> Chinese people look so calm and civilized.


^^ Yes, but only in first class... :lol:


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## KB

Do we have economy class pics if this is first class?


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## chornedsnorkack

KB said:


> Do we have economy class pics if this is first class?


Yes:










Observe that:

The passengers in the second class do not look particularly excited or barbarian, either.

Most first class seats are full. Somehow many people do want to pay extra.

The armrest between the first class seats looks pretty solid. So even sitting next to an empty seat, it is impractical to lie across seats.


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## hkskyline

*Errant Chinese smoker stops world's fastest train *

BEIJING, Dec 30 (Reuters) - The world's fastest train hit its first speed bump in the form of a disobedient smoker less than a week after it began running in southern China.

A cigarette triggered an alarm that forced a two-and-a-half hour stoppage, nearly as long as the train takes to cover the 1,100 kilometre (684 mile) distance between Guangzhou, capital of Guangdong province, and the central city of Wuhan.

Managers of the bullet train, which debuted on Saturday, were unable to catch the smoker who fled the scene before the alarm sounded, the official Xinhua news agency reported on Wednesday.

"Smoking is strictly forbidden on the Wuhan-Guangzhou high-speed train, even in the toilet," a spokesman with the Guangzhou Railway Group Corporation was quoted as saying. "It could trigger the alarm and even cause equipment failures."

The train was in the Guangzhou rail station when it was delayed and had not yet begun its 350-km-per-hour journey, Xinhua added.


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## oliver999

wow, i do nt know changsha so beautiful


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## KB

looks like there isn't much of a difference..something I observed here on the TGV too...between first class and economy as compared to a plane where the difference is much higher.


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## 33Hz

Papagei said:


> Unfortunately this is not that "one day" I was talking about. If you really wanna go on you need single suspended wheels. But the wheels and Bogies in AGV are of the same technology we already know. Maybe the bogies are slightly more lightweight but they are far away from a "breakthrough".


Really?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQQ/is_3_48/ai_n24941744/



> A permanent magnet motor occupies about one-third less space than an asynchronous motor, so it can fit within the bogie rather than being suspended from the car body as with TGV. This lowers the centre of gravity and makes it possible to reduce the floor height by 100mm, which means only two 20cm-high steps are needed to board AGV from a French station platform.
> 
> ...
> 
> The AGV bogie uses composites as well as steel to produce a weight saving of 1 tonne per bogie. Overall, AGV will weigh 10 to 15 tonnes less than TGV. Moreover, as Mr Francois Lacote, Alstom's technical director, explains: "the amount of noise produced by an AGV motor bogie is lower than that of a TGV traction bogie and about the same as that of a TGV trailer bogie."


Sounds like quite an improvement...


On a similar note, here is the word from the horse's mouth on the situation in Spain:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view//adif-heads-for-profit.html



> _What is the current situation of the ERTMS installation programme in Spain?_
> 
> At present, 1 053 km of the Spanish high speed network has been equipped with ERTMS Level 1. Around 1 600 km is planned to be in service by 2010.
> 
> In addition, trials are currently underway of ERTMS Level 2 signalling on the Madrid – Lleida section of the high speed line to Barcelona, which will enable the maximum speed to be raised to 350 km/h where the infrastructure allows it.


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## chornedsnorkack

KB said:


> looks like there isn't much of a difference..something I observed here on the TGV too...between first class and economy as compared to a plane where the difference is much higher.


It is not, at least on small planes for shorthaul domestic flights. See this China Eastern plane:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/China-Eastern-Airlines/McDonnell-Douglas-MD-90-30/0902567/L/


----------



## Stainless

KB said:


> looks like there isn't much of a difference..something I observed here on the TGV too...between first class and economy as compared to a plane where the difference is much higher.


I got on a Belgian train recently and accidentally went into first class, I was told to move by the conductor and went to the second class. The only difference I could see was the seats were a different colour, they were no bigger or further apart, maybe the only difference is that it is less busy due to a prohibitive premium.


----------



## Onn

maldini said:


> If oil is cheaper, how come no one bashes the Japanese/Koreans/Europeans for building their highspeed railway?
> 
> Now, if a billion Chinese are driving their own cars, just like the Americans, instead of taking the highspeed railway, those western bashers will complain there are way too many polluting cars in China.
> 
> How come whenever a Chinese person supports his/her own country, it is necessarily because of nationalism?


I agree with you, high-speed rail is needed in China. I never said it wasn't. But there is other nationalism going off in here. And if it is I'm going to address it. I'm just pointing out that westerns will defend their countries as Chinese defend theirs.


----------



## maldini

Onn said:


> Ummm yeah! A ticket from San Francisco to LA here on high-speed rail is going to cost over 100 dollars, but only 30 some dollars in gas! Get a clue!


You should get a clue that some provinces in China have way more population than California which has only 37 million. If most Chinese drive there own cars, they would need way more 10-lanes highways than they have now. Highspeed railways occupy a smaller footprint than 10-lane highways and are more energy efficient than cars.


----------



## YelloPerilo

maldini said:


> How come whenever a Chinese person supports his/her own country, it is necessarily because of nationalism?


A USofAmerican who supports his country is a patriot, a Chinese doing the same is a nationalist. That's how bigotry works.


----------



## Onn

YelloPerilo said:


> LOL, as if you guys don't address yoursef to be the leader of the "West". :lol:


Well personally I don't share that view as others do, the US and Canada were founded to get away from Europe. So by definition the two sides should be classified separately.


----------



## YelloPerilo

Onn said:


> Well personally I don't share that view as others do, the US and Canada were founded to get away from Europe. So by definition the two sides should be classified separately.


Don't tell me this, tell this to your media and your politicians.


----------



## Onn

YelloPerilo said:


> Don't tell me this, tell this to your media and your politicians.


One man can not change it alone, only the President has the power to change that sort of relationship. For that reason, I will be running for President as soon as I'm old enough to do so. :yes:


----------



## YelloPerilo

Onn said:


> One man can not change it alone, only the President has the power to change that sort of relationship. For that reason, I will be running for President as soon as I'm old enough to do so. :yes:


Good luck! :cheers:

BTW, how would you call the USofA then? China is the Middle Kingdom, Europe is the "West". Are you going to be the "new" East?


----------



## Onn

YelloPerilo said:


> Good luck! :cheers:
> 
> BTW, how would you call the USofA then? China is the Middle Kingdom, Europe is the "West". Are you going to be the "new" East?


Don't know, I have more than a decade to think about it still. But I'll make sure to make this one of the major purposed policy changes of my campaign. "Redefining the Relationship with the West" :lol:


----------



## snow is red

Great !! Onn and his immense wealth of knowledge is enlightening all of us. Onn, when are you going to publish your predictions book of world events ? Onn if you know so much then why are you on Internet forums and not giving lectures in some US universities ? Or are you waiting to be old enough ?


----------



## Onn

snow is red said:


> Great !! Onn and his immense wealth of knowledge is enlightening all of us. Onn, when are you going to publish your predictions book of world events ? Onn if you know so much then why are you on Internet forums and not giving lectures in some US universities ? Or are you waiting to be old enough ?


No, no, I could do that all. But my strategy is to take the world by storm, you can't do everything in a day. The university speeches will come, don't worry. I'll be on the news....get my name on a plaque or something too. You'll see. I'm writing my first book as we speak.


----------



## snow is red

^^ Thanks Onn you're really bringing joys to this thread. ROFL.


----------



## YelloPerilo

Onn said:


> No, no, I could do that all. But my strategy is to take the world by storm, you can't do everything in a day. The university speeches will come, don't worry. I'll be on the news....get my name on a plaque or something too. You'll see. I'm writing my first book as we speak.


Make sure to tell us the title of your book so that the whole SSC would buy one copy. That would certainly boost your reputation and last but not least, makes inflates your wallet a bit. :lol:


----------



## foxmulder

DONT FEED TROLL. Just send more pictures That's the answer  Move on rail-lover friends....


----------



## SimFox

In my experience Siemens Velaro is noticeably worse that CRH2c (Kawasaki model) it's noisier, vibrates more and lacks that well though through touches of Japanese design. This is particularly apparent in 2nd class.


----------



## typhoon_wolf

I really hope that one day I can hear that "China launches 'world's BEST train service" than "FASTEST"...


----------



## Acerola

At least, the CHR's interior looks better than most of the japanese shinkansen, with the exception of the Tsubame 800.

Shinkansen 500 series interior(ugly):
 

Shinkansen 800 series(Tsubame)(nice, but the seats look cheap):


----------



## SOLOMON

Shinkansen 800 series(Tsubame)(nice, but the seats look cheap):









...nice?uke:


----------



## FazilLanka

These seats look so starnge...


----------



## Acerola

SOLOMON said:


> Shinkansen 800 series(Tsubame)(nice, but the seats look cheap):
> 
> ...nice?uke:


They look cheap. But I like the colors, better than the darker ones of the 500 series, it looks dirt or rusty...


----------



## corredor06

:cheers:Nice China.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

HunanChina said:


> Guangzhou South Railway Station is Open


Do the high speed trains go to South Station through North Station with a stop there, or directly without stopping in North Station?


----------



## yaohua2000

chornedsnorkack said:


> Do the high speed trains go to South Station through North Station with a stop there, or directly without stopping in North Station?


Slightly more than half of the trains stop at Guangzhou North.


----------



## yaohua2000

*Zhengzhou-Xi'an HSR Nanshankou Tunnel*

http://bbs.hasea.com/viewthread.php?tid=403987





























lightning arrester:









western entrance:








































































100 meters into western entrance:









comprehensive cavern #17:



























overhead catenary:









200 meters into western entrance:



























300 meters into western entrance:


















comprehensive cavern #16:


















400 meters into western entrance:


















500 meters into western entrance:


















600 meters into western entrance:









comprehensive cavern #15:



























700 meters into western entrance:


















"no stop":


















800 meters into western entrance:









comprehensive cavern #14:


















900 meters into western entrance:


















1000 meters into western entrance:


















1100 meters into western entrance:









comprehensive cavern #13:


















1200 meters into western entrance:









1300 meters into western entrance:









1400 meters into western entrance:









comprehensive cavern #12:









"TBAS-100 railway tunnel monitoring device"









1500 meters into western entrance:



























groundwater:









1600 meters into western entrance:









comprehensive cavern #11:




































1700 meters into western entrance:



























1800 meters into western entrance:









comprehensive cavern #10:









"relieve nature is not allowed":









1900 meters into western entrance:



























2000 meters into western entrance:


















comprehensive cavern #9:



























2100 meters into western entrance:









equal distance into eastern and western entrances:









graffiti:









poem:









"zhengzhou-xi'an high-speed rail"









2100 meters into eastern entrance:









western entrance is no longer visible:









2000 meters into eastern entrance:









comprehensive cavern #8:









1900 meters into eastern entrance:









1800 meters into eastern entrance:









1700 meters into eastern entrance:









comprehensive cavern #7:


















1600 meters into eastern entrance:









1500 meters into eastern entrance:









comprehensive cavern #6:



























1400 meters into eastern entrance:









"curve length: 3362.834 meters; adjustment curve length: 430 meters; curve radius: 10000 meters; superelevation: 125 millimeters"









the other track: "curve length: 3362.368 meters; adjustment curve length: 430 meters; curve radius: 9995 meters; superelevation: 125 millimeters"









1300 meters into eastern entrance:









1200 meters into eastern entrance:









comprehensive cavern #5:


















1100 meters into eastern entrance:



























1000 meters into eastern entrance:









comprehensive cavern #4:













































900 meters into eastern entrance:









800 meters into eastern entrance:









700 meters into eastern entrance:


















comprehensive cavern #3:



























600 meters into eastern entrance:









500 meters into eastern entrance:


















comprehensive cavern #2:


















400 meters into eastern entrance:









300 meters into eastern entrance:









200 meters into eastern entrance:









comprehensive cavern #1:


















100 meters into eastern entrance:



























"Nanshankou Tunnel settlement observation point":









eastern entrance:


----------



## FazilLanka

This is amazing railway stations and I haven't seen anything like this. I hope one day I could travel to these stations.


----------



## NCT

Oh no, another railport.


----------



## Taipei Walker

Is the metro connection to Guangzhou city center open too? I will be in Guangzhou in April and I want to take the train to Wuhan and Changsha.


----------



## Myouzke

Taipei Walker said:


> Is the metro connection to Guangzhou city center open too? I will be in Guangzhou in April and I want to take the train to Wuhan and Changsha.


Not yet but Line 2 southern extension it will be open in middle of this year around September before the Asian Games. The Guangzhou–Zhuhai Intercity Mass Rapid Transit is should so be operational soon.


----------



## city_thing

More photos, please!

I can't believe how quickly the station went up!

I was in Guangzhou a few years ago, great city. I'd love to go back.


----------



## keber

Interesting look into security features of China railway tunnels. It's dissapointing to see such low security standards for such an advanced railway: no intermediate emergency escape options (for about 4 km long tunnel), lack of service tube, no hand railings, bad and dangerous pavement for pedestrians, entrances without any emergency and service platforms etc.


----------



## zergcerebrates

WOW the Guangzhou station is just HUGE!


----------



## zergcerebrates

^ what is that? Doesn't look like its part of the station.


----------



## HunanChina

More photo about Guangzhou South Railway Station

First day


----------



## NCT

zergcerebrates said:


> WOW the Guangzhou station is just HUGE!


Well it's a bloody user-unfriendly rail_port_.


----------



## HunanChina




----------



## Peloso

keber said:


> Interesting look into security features of China railway tunnels. It's dissapointing to see such low security standards for such an advanced railway: no intermediate emergency escape options (for about 4 km long tunnel), lack of service tube, no hand railings, bad and dangerous pavement for pedestrians, entrances without any emergency and service platforms etc.


I think at least safety rooms do exist here, see those doors in the "caverns"? The pavement looks ordinary to me. Also there seems to be a lot of monitoring devices. A request (a bit OT): could anyone transcribe that piece of poetry in normal chinese fonts for me?


----------



## Peloso

NCT said:


> Well it's a bloody user-unfriendly rail_port_.


Pls. elaborate...


----------



## David2009

keber said:


> Interesting look into security features of China railway tunnels. It's dissapointing to see such low security standards for such an advanced railway: no intermediate emergency escape options (for about 4 km long tunnel), lack of service tube, no hand railings, bad and dangerous pavement for pedestrians, entrances without any emergency and service platforms etc.


Those picture wrer taken in Summer, 2009. At that time, the railway was under construction. Now, thousands of secuity guards are working on the railway everyday, it is very hard to get into the tunnel.


----------



## keber

^^ OK, in half a year a lot can be installed, most security equipment is usually installed at the end. I work in designing those sort of stuff, so I was watching photos in more critical matter than most other people. It would be nice to see also pictures of finished stuff.

>>> I think at least safety rooms do exist here, see those doors in the "caverns"?
They don't look as emergency exit doors, usually found in new (european) railway tunnels.


----------



## Myouzke

Peloso said:


> Pls. elaborate...


Its very far from the current existent Guangzhou CBD its in middle of nowhere but it is in the mid-point of three urban center Guangzhou, Foshan, & Panyu. It doesn't matter soon the government is planning a satellite CBD by the new railway station soon. Also four metro lines are going to connect to this railway station.


----------



## Peloso

Myouzke said:


> Its very far from the current existent Guangzhou CBD its in middle of nowhere but it is in the mid-point of three urban center Guangzhou, Foshan, & Panyu. It doesn't matter soon the government is planning a satellite CBD by the new railway station soon. Also four metro lines are going to connect to this railway station.


He didn't just say it's a "railport" (which I think can refer to the fact that it's in the outskirts (and I'd add it could not have been otherwise in view of the size)) he also said it's "user-unfriendly", that's why I asked him to elaborate.


----------



## foxmulder

Hangzhou East looks really nice. It has smt I cannot describe. It looks organic. I am please with open layouts, natural lighting, nice parks around the stations. I will definitely use high speed rails instead of air travel.


----------



## NCT

foxmulder said:


> Hangzhou East looks really nice. It has smt I cannot describe. It looks organic. I am please with open layouts, natural lighting, nice parks around the stations. I will definitely use high speed rails instead of air travel.


Hmm, I'm really not sure about the idea of parks around railway stations. Railway stations are not somewhere you hang about purposelessly but just a place you pass through quickly. Preferably it needs to blend in with the urban environment without the intrusion of street-level motorways, and a human distance between the nearest shop/office and platform is key. There's nothing wrong with public spaces if there are street-level shops and restaurants to give the spaces some purposes. Apart from the well designed shops street-level density needs to be that of the City of London (and even Canary Wharf), which doesn't seem to be the case of the areas surrounding East Hangzhou.


----------



## Peloso

NCT said:


> Substancially increased access journey distance, huge walking distances on the square, and from the 'Great Hall' onto the platforms. This is how it should be?
> 
> Rail travel should be about walk to the station (or a 10-minute metro journey from most core parts of the city) and jump onto the train.
> 
> - Some people just cannot digest new developments.
> 
> No, some authorities just cannot plan developments properly.


Being unaware of the reason the station was planned like this is not a good reason to call the Chinese developers incompetent. They are surely better prepared than you to judge what's ideal, they know what are the issues to solve, etc. For one, I guess ample space is needed for cases like the Chinese New Year, or service interruptions, and many other situations.


----------



## NCT

Peloso said:


> Being unaware of the reason the station was planned like this is not a good reason to call the Chinese developers incompetent. They are surely better prepared than you to judge what's ideal, they know what are the issues to solve, etc. For one, I guess ample space is needed for cases like the Chinese New Year, or service interruptions, and many other situations.


An appeal to authority argument = no argument.


----------



## makita09

^^ Not quite a typical appeal to authority fallacy though is it?

Its not even an appeal, its positing reasonable doubt of a previous appeal (yours).

Appeal to authority as a fallacy means the authority figure is not someone who would necessarily know. Such as "Boats are bad for your health, Oprah Winfrey said so". Appealing to qualified authorities is actually quite a logical thing to do in life. Otherwise academics wouldn't spend so long qualifying themselves to be one. That said, it wasn't even an appeal, it was reasonable to doubt accepting your version of reality on your authority based on the likelihood of more qualified alternative authorities pre-existing.

So, unless anyone can provide some research, then neither party has the logical moral high ground, but one party is being particularly obtuse.


----------



## derekf1974

Very nice rail ports. Keep in mind, they are not metro stations that serve neighborhoods. They serve entire metropolitan areas and beyond. Travelers arrive and leave by metros, buses, taxis, and private cars. I say, build them big, nice, and with room for future expansions. Gotta love high speed rail. Too bad, I am in California. We'll never get this kind of service.


----------



## foxmulder

On the map, I cannot distinguish lines that are designed for 350km/hr. I think he drew all lines over 200km/h in bold.


by the way, guys don't feed the troll. he has an obsession with Chinese hsr and especially with stations. he has been writing same stuff in all chr related threads. At first I thought he was sincerely expressing his idea but now it is apparent he is not. Repeated same tings over and over, just a troll.


----------



## makita09

Fair enough.

Yeah I find the map hard to understand as well. It seems the colours are chosen at random.


----------



## city_thing

As good as the stations are, it'd be nice to see something different to the generic station layout China is using.


----------



## fortBOS

*fort bonifacio office space*

The construction was so impressive. I'm amazed with the design. Great project!!! :applause:


----------



## kelly

NCT said:


> Hmm, I'm really not sure about the idea of parks around railway stations. Railway stations are not somewhere you hang about purposelessly but just a place you pass through quickly. Preferably it needs to blend in with the urban environment without the intrusion of street-level motorways, and a human distance between the nearest shop/office and platform is key. There's nothing wrong with public spaces if there are street-level shops and restaurants to give the spaces some purposes. Apart from the well designed shops street-level density needs to be that of the City of London (and even Canary Wharf), which doesn't seem to be the case of the areas surrounding East Hangzhou.


but we are talking about China. it's way too different with UK or other European countries, you can't pass through a station quickly.


----------



## NCT

kelly said:


> but we are talking about China. it's way too different with UK or other European countries, you can't pass through a station quickly.


The differences are almost entirely artificial and in perception. In terms of naturally evolving city layout and the need for inner-city redevelopment, there are far more similarities than some are prepared to admit.

Edit - sorry, thought I was responding to a different thread where I was particularly 'obtuse' about location selection.

More to the point, the fact that 'you can't pass through a station quickly' is not something to be proud of or should be accepted as the 'norm'. Railway competes against motoring and aviation in China as much as everywhere else. Sure the advantages of HSR are clear, but every time we make a compromise the adcantages get reduced, and likewise the overall advantages of HSR.


----------



## Ariel74

foxmulder said:


> On the map, I cannot distinguish lines that are designed for 350km/hr. I think he drew all lines over 200km/h in bold.
> 
> 
> by the way, guys don't feed the troll. he has an obsession with Chinese hsr and especially with stations. he has been writing same stuff in all chr related threads. At first I thought he was sincerely expressing his idea but now it is apparent he is not. Repeated same tings over and over, just a troll.


I guess your vision of the forum is one of perpetual celebration. Using "troll" to designate anyone who voices concerns or criticisms, even if repeatedly, just makes that word meaningless. Seems to me he has a valid point, and, as Makita says, unless someone provides some detailed analysis and research, the issue is not really settled. 

Frankly, your attempt to shut people up is by far more annoying than the so-called "trolls".


----------



## chornedsnorkack

yaohua2000 said:


> You are speaking of timetable, not map.


Actually, I thought of depicting the traffic frequency on the map. This would show the bottlenecks and such on the rail network.


yaohua2000 said:


> G-series (long-haul 300+ km/h): 66; but will soon be 80 three days later; from both directions
> C-series (intercity 300+ km/h): 128;
> D-series (200+ km/h, but could be slower on upgraded lines): 567;


Does it mean 33 G trains in either direction?

It means roughly 2 trains per hour in daytime. Are those all on the new Wuguang line?

Are the C series train all on Beijing-Tianjin, or are some of them on Wuguang line?

Is Wuguang line now full? I hear that some G trains have to wait in Changsha station for 15 minutes just to let nonstop G trains pass, whereas picking up passengers from Changsha could be done in less than 5 minutes. Or is the number of G trains in service limited by the availability of trainsets and they can be added when trains get completed?


----------



## makita09

chornedsnorkack said:


> Actually, I thought of depicting the traffic frequency on the map. This would show the bottlenecks and such on the rail network.


Yes I agree, train timetable maps are a regular feature of Route Utilisation Strategies in the UK, and are very useful. The common approach is to have one line per train per hour. And often there are two maps, the off-peak and the peak. And yes they get very complicated very quickly, so they are only done region by region rather than the whole network.


----------



## Ariel74

NCT said:


> The differences are almost entirely artificial and in perception. In terms of naturally evolving city layout and the need for inner-city redevelopment, there are far more similarities than some are prepared to admit.
> 
> Edit - sorry, thought I was responding to a different thread where I was particularly 'obtuse' about location selection.
> 
> More to the point, the fact that 'you can't pass through a station quickly' is not something to be proud of or should be accepted as the 'norm'. Railway competes against motoring and aviation in China as much as everywhere else. Sure the advantages of HSR are clear, but every time we make a compromise the adcantages get reduced, and likewise the overall advantages of HSR.


I think Kelly's point was that it is difficult to pass through a station not because it is a CRH station, but because it is a station in china, where there are on average a LOT more people cramming through a train station than in Europe. I live in Frankfurt, which has one of the largest and busiest train stations on the continent. But it still feels empty compared to an average train station in China. The reason is simply that even a "small" city in China has many times more population than a "large" city in Europe. A train station in China is always crammed with people, hence is harder to pass through. 

I don't know which is better: to cram through a relatively small station in the middle of the city and get pushed and shoved by smelly crowds, or to ride further out of town to a large, spacious station that is more pleasant, though not necessarily faster, to pass through.

The point is that there is inevitably a trade-off, given the condition of China.


----------



## yaohua2000

chornedsnorkack said:


> Does it mean 33 G trains in either direction?
> 
> It means roughly 2 trains per hour in daytime. Are those all on the new Wuguang line?


Yes.



chornedsnorkack said:


> Are the C series train all on Beijing-Tianjin, or are some of them on Wuguang line?


Currently all on Beijing-Tianjin. But Shanghai-Nanjing will open on May 1, 2010.



chornedsnorkack said:


> Is Wuguang line now full?


Wuguang is far from full. China does not have enough trains. The two train plants: Qingdao delivers six CRH2C trainsets a month, and Tangshan delivers eight CRH3C. This is not enough for catch up the speed of railway construction.



chornedsnorkack said:


> I hear that some G trains have to wait in Changsha station for 15 minutes just to let nonstop G trains pass, whereas picking up passengers from Changsha could be done in less than 5 minutes.


It had been cut to 9–11 minutes since the open of Guangzhou South, and not only in Changsha South, also in Miluo East and Chenzhou West. Check the timetable.


----------



## NCT

Ariel74 said:


> I think Kelly's point was that it is difficult to pass through a station not because it is a CRH station, but because it is a station in china, where there are on average a LOT more people cramming through a train station than in Europe. I live in Frankfurt, which has one of the largest and busiest train stations on the continent. But it still feels empty compared to an average train station in China. The reason is simply that even a "small" city in China has many times more population than a "large" city in Europe. A train station in China is always crammed with people, hence is harder to pass through.
> 
> I don't know which is better: to cram through a relatively small station in the middle of the city and get pushed and shoved by smelly crowds, or to ride further out of town to a large, spacious station that is more pleasant, though not necessarily faster, to pass through.
> 
> The point is that there is inevitably a trade-off, given the condition of China.


There are several reasons for this. The first one is archaic ticketing and complicated boarding procedures. Most tickets are bought at railway stations (even those purchased in advance). Ticket outlets do exist but they are relatively few and far between. Online-ticketing isn't even considered (of course there is a high risk of ticket touts when demand far outstrips supply in present-day China). There are no flexible tickets, and the procedure between entering the station and entering the train is pretty complex (can involve 2 checks, ticket and/or security). This means the average waiting time at stations is made unecessarily long.

These are problems which will gradually disappear as platform numbers in cities increase. Railway travel is fast becoming something other than 'what the peasants do', and infrastructure design must accommodate that. If you are investing in world-class 350km/h lines and rolling stock, it won't hurt much to go the whole way to make the stations better. Station capacity is still too low compared to the increase in line and network capacities. You don't solve this by building one massive station that'll still be overcrowded - you build a ring of half a dozen normal-sized stations in the inner city. You can easily have 50-100 platforms per city without any station being a nightmare to use.

In short, the problems with Chinese stations are not fundamentally due to the high population density (which is not astronomically different to European densities), but due to the inner workings of the current railway system.


----------



## UD2

yaohua2000 said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> It had been cut to 9–11 minutes since the open of Guangzhou South, and not only in Changsha South, also in Miluo East and Chenzhou West. Check the timetable.


In other words it's not a problem of line capacity, rather station capacity?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

yaohua2000 said:


> Wuguang is far from full. China does not have enough trains.


In which case it is natural that tickets are hard to get and too expensive for poor. Lowering the price would simply mean that the tickets are bought out by ticket dealers.

It remains to be seen what happens when more trains are completed and enter service. Can all people travel at reasonable prices?

And look at Tokaido Shinkansen on how to run a high-speed railway. There is, I think, a Nozomi train (4 intermediate stops, 2:26) each 10 minutes, and yet a Hikari train covers the same distance in just 3 hours, with 7 additional stops.


----------



## zergcerebrates

Wow, this is nuts.


----------



## jayOOfoshO

damn


----------



## Nozumi 300

WOW....
Can't wait to see it completed and running.


----------



## Cherguevara

I don't understand why they're going into Qinghai to get from Lanzhou to Urumqi? Is there a reason the trains won't be able to pass through the Hexi corridor?


----------



## Scion

^^ This line includes a stop at Xining, provincial capital for Qinghai


----------



## derekf1974

Cool, another 350km/h line.


----------



## ironalbo

more pics??


----------



## yaohua2000

ironalbo said:


> more pics??


It's just beginning, more pics will come in the next five years.


----------



## foxmulder

jayOOfoshO said:


> damn


+1 :lol:

I've never thought a 350km/h line to Urumqi. This will be even more significant engineering feat than Lhasa line.


----------



## 1772

I bet this thread was great, to bad I missed it. 
If someone would retreave all the pics, it would be much appreciated.


----------



## UD2

^^

... are we sure this will be 350? and not 200?


----------



## foxmulder

It has 7000m min radius for turns, so it might be very well 350km/h. But it is not certain, I guess.


----------



## yaohua2000

*New Xining Station*

New Xining Station


----------



## yaohua2000

*Fourth-grade-leveling survey against strong wind (July 2009)*

Fourth-grade-leveling survey against strong wind (July 2009)


----------



## foxmulder

h great pictures yaohua, thanks. Some of them are funny.

Also another railport, cool


----------



## zergcerebrates

^ Search on other Chinese railway update threads, theres like 4 or 5 of them showing new stations.


----------



## foxmulder

Did they finish construction of Guangzhou South Railway Station? I think it suppose to finish soon.


----------



## Scion

^^ Guangzhou South opened 2 months ago. Look at page 15 post #292


----------



## foxmulder

Yeah, I know but it was not completed completely back then.


----------



## vmenkov

*Interline service between HSR lines in China?*

Last year, I had a chance to take a fast train on the new HSR line from Shanghai to Wuhan (Hakou, actually) via Hefei. According to www.tielu.org, There are now several trains a day on this route, making it from Shanghai to the Hankou Station or the new Wuhan Station (one train a day) in 5-6 hours.

In the late 2009, the new high-speed line from Wuhan to Guangzhou opened; the same schedule site shows literally dozens of trains on this line daily, with travel times of 3-4 hours.

Considering that the two new lines directly connect (at the new Wuhan Station), it would seem so reasonable for China Railways to run some direct trains from Shanghai to Guangzhou on these new lines via Nanjing, Hefei, and Wuhan; the total travel time should be within 9-10 hours, so they could have a very nice overnight service there, and a feasible day train as well. However, I don't see any service like this listed on www.tielu.org; instead, the fastest listed trains ( http://train.tielu.org/Search/T99A.html ) take over 15 hours, traveling on conventional rail lines to the south of Wuhan.

While it feasible for a passenger to buy a HSR ticket from Shanghai to Wuhan station (there is just one train a day to there, though), and then from there to a HSR train to Guangzhou, having to transfer sort of defeats the idea of "high-speed". I am curious whether there is any particular reasons why they aren't introducing any direct service. Are there any fundamental technical reasons not to do so (some kind of incompatibility of equipment between the two lines? having to close the line for maintenance every night?) or is it more of a marketing thing (they figure that the price/time ratio will make such service incompetitive with faster planes and cheaper conventional trains?)? Or is it simply the case of them wanting to first test the Wuhan-Guangzhou line in a comparatively "limited" service mode before using it for more versatile service? Or a capacity issue (not enough HS train sets available yet?)

A similar question can be asked about the feasibility of direct service between HSR and "regular" (but still quite fast) lines - something that, I believe, TGV does in France. That is, considering how many trains run daily on the new high-speed WuGuang line, I'd imagine that some of them could continue from Guangzhou on "regular" tracks to Shenzhen, or from Wuhan to Zhengzhou (and then again on a high-speed line to Xi'an), thus providing fast direct service Wuhan-Shenzhen or Guangzhou-Xi'an. Is this again some kind of technical compatibility issue: can the trainset designed for the WuGuang HSR actually travel on (good) "regular" tracks (at the "regular" speed or say 100-150 km/h), or that had better be avoided to avoid unnecessary wear or tear? I'd imagine there could be a financial reason too, i.e. making the HSR train run those last several kilometers with a comparatively low speed may be considered an inefficient use of valuable equipment...

Any links to actual news articles / technical reports discussing the issue (in English or Chinese or another language) would be appreciated.


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## UD2

network construction have yet to be compeleted. Service schedules are set to change accordingly as construction progresses. 

Current regular lines are set to take on increasing freight traffic as passangers are diverted towards the newer highspeed lines.


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## highway35

This is a severe shortage of high-speed train-set at this point. All the rolling stock manufacturers are racing the clock to build more high speed trains. The new trains with higher-speed (> 350 kmh) is still in the development stage. There is no point to run the high-speed trains on the crowded conventional tracks. 

The majority of the high-speed rail network is still under construction. The train stations for most if not all cities will be newly-built. Even Xian's and Zhengzhou's new high-speed train stations are still under construction and won't be completed until next year.


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## highway35

Deleted due to repeat.


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## Scion

Has this video been posted here? Very very fast


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## toddhubert

Scion said:


> Has this video been posted here? Very very fast


have watched that before, does the train need to slow down when passing the station?


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## Scion




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## Scion




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## Scion




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## Scion




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## Taipei Walker

toddhubert said:


> have watched that before, does the train need to slow down when passing the station?


No, the train does not need to slow down while passing the station, I remember we passed Changsha station with the speed of 340km/h, almost top speed of the train (which was 345km/h for the express train that I took). I will upload my pictures soon.


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## maldini

Are some of the platforms at Wuhan station still under construction?


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## Peloso

maldini said:


> Are some of the platforms at Wuhan station still under construction?


Apparently yes :lol:
Well I guess they are supposed to serve the new HSR lines that are not yet ready as well.


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## foxmulder

Cooool pictures. Thanks for sharing. :cheers:


This high speed network will be a huge trouble for airlines


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## maldini

How come hasea pictures are not showing?


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## foxmulder

Can anyone send the pictures on the first page, again? Or give me the a link so I can find them in http://www.crecc.com.cn?


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## K_

It seems that most of these stations are all build along the same pattern; A passenger concourse in the middle above the tracks, with stairs leading down to them. However the tracks are almost always elevated. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the passenger concourse below the tracks? That way it can be a lot bigger, and you can have more stairs leading up to the platforms. For 400m long platforms having something like 4 sets of stairs would be quite convenient.


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## UD2

K_ said:


> It seems that most of these stations are all build along the same pattern; A passenger concourse in the middle above the tracks, with stairs leading down to them. However the tracks are almost always elevated. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the passenger concourse below the tracks? That way it can be a lot bigger, and you can have more stairs leading up to the platforms. For 400m long platforms having something like 4 sets of stairs would be quite convenient.


1. Cheaper to build up than down
2. Grand terminal above ground look better from the outside.
3. Above grade building allows for higher ceilings -> better passanger comfort
4. it's a cultural thing. The Chinese doesn't like to go underground unless they have no other choice
5. It's a political thing. New train stations are major investments and infrastructural projects -> political achievements and accomplishments. The politicians like it better when the people can actually "see" the results.
6. Bragging rights. Sorta easier to show people how awsome you are than to have them imagine it.


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## K_

UD2 said:


> 1. Cheaper to build up than down
> 2. Grand terminal above ground look better from the outside.
> 3. Above grade building allows for higher ceilings -> better passanger comfort
> 4. it's a cultural thing. The Chinese doesn't like to go underground unless they have no other choice
> 5. It's a political thing. New train stations are major investments and infrastructural projects -> political achievements and accomplishments. The politicians like it better when the people can actually "see" the results.
> 6. Bragging rights. Sorta easier to show people how awsome you are than to have them imagine it.


But the tracks are elevated. This would mean that the passenger concourse could be at ground level, not underground. And you can still have an impressive station that way. Lots of examples of that in Europe.


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## UD2

K_ said:


> But the tracks are elevated. This would mean that the passenger concourse could be at ground level, not underground. And you can still have an impressive station that way. Lots of examples of that in Europe.


The terminal buildings are often 5 stories tall. There are certain ineffeciencies in raising 20 tracks & platforms to that height in the middle of the city. 

But I understand your point.


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## foxmulder

.. deleted


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## yaohua2000

*Construction work of Xining Tunnel started on April 29*

http://www.qhnews.com/index/system/2010/05/03/010113306.shtml



> 青海新闻网讯 4月29日，兰新铁路第二双线重点控制性工程——西宁隧道开工建设。
> 
> 据中国中铁五局一公司兰新项目部有关负责人介绍，西宁隧道全长5700米，位于省会西宁市，是新建兰(州)至新(疆)第二双线铁路全线重点控制性工程。西宁隧道的地质状况极其复杂，其中Ⅵ级围岩1310米，Ⅴ级围岩2740米、Ⅳ级围岩1650米。西宁隧道进口段1368米浅埋段位于西宁市区，洞身拱部基本位于黄土地层，边墙及仰拱位于细沙、卵砾石土或石膏岩、泥岩中，埋深约12米至25米，下穿兰西高速公路、小北川河及多处民用建筑物，施工难度极大。
> 
> 此项目总投资7.4亿元，计划3年完工。根据设计要求，西宁隧道增设两个斜井，与进口和出口组成6个工作面同时开挖掘进。此项工程工期紧、任务重，为确保西宁隧道的总体工期目标，项目部还制定了西宁隧道的整体施工方案、阶段性目标和各种保障措施。目前，工程各项施工进度正在有序推进。(作者：倪晓颖)


Xining Tunnel is the critical project of the railway. The tunnel is 5700 meters long, of which, VI-class wall rock is 1310 meters long, V-class wall rock is 2740 meters long, IV-class wall rock is 1650 meters long. The geological conditions is complicated. The total invest of the tunnel is ¥740 million. It is expected to be completed in 3 years.


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## Zitterd02

67 kilometres of wind shades..that's quite something! I like the stuff China's doing nowadays!


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## zaphod

Its an interesting project but is anyone going to spend 12-14 hours on a train when an airplane could conceivably make the same trip in less than 4?

Is this for freight or passengers?


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## drunkenmunkey888

UD2 said:


> ^^
> 
> ... are we sure this will be 350? and not 200?


Wikipedia says its gonna be 350 kmph

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanxin_High-Speed_Railway


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## k.k.jetcar

> Its an interesting project but is anyone going to spend 12-14 hours on a train when an airplane could conceivably make the same trip in less than 4?


Simply, some people don't like to fly, or enjoy having legroom and the ability to walk around and stretch your legs, etc. But most importantly, not everyone is riding from end point to end point- people will be getting off and on at intermediate stations- this fact is often lost on people who say "the plane is faster"- it is, but it completely overflies (literally and figuratively) the potential market that exists between end points.


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## foxmulder

k.k.jetcar said:


> Simply, some people don't like to fly, or enjoy having legroom and the ability to walk around and stretch your legs, etc. But most importantly, not everyone is riding from end point to end point- people will be getting off and on at intermediate stations- this fact is often lost on people who say "the plane is faster"- it is, but it completely overflies (literally and figuratively) the potential market that exists between end points.


Not to mention it will probably be cheaper.


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## Big Cat

An amazing project! Can't wait to see it finished


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## Capital378

I am not gonna to make any offensive words but I do doubt if these station does build as excessive large and probably a "cash-washing" construction ? hno:

It would be pretty doubtful for those workers who may only earn few hundred RMB to actually travel with HSR with a price approx. on a level of sth like RMB400~500. (or even more depend on class and distance)

But anyway talking on the design itself these station doesn't look bad and some does resembles like an airport terminal rather train stations. The Shenyeng station recall quite a bit with the Tokyo and Seoul station, probably due to the construction was done by Japanese during Manchuria/Mukden (whatever, u get my meaning) era ?


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## yaohua2000

Capital378 said:


> It would be pretty doubtful for those workers who may only earn few hundred RMB to actually travel with HSR with a price approx. on a level of sth like RMB400~500. (or even more depend on class and distance)


No worker for these projects earn a few hundred RMB a month. I've talked to them in person. They may earn not very much, but not a few hundred. Some workers have a relatively good salary, actually. Go to any construction site and ask!


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## luhai167

yaohua2000 said:


> No worker for these projects earn a few hundred RMB a month. I've talked to them in person. They may earn not very much, but not a few hundred. Some workers have a relatively good salary, actually. Go to any construction site and ask!


Yeah, with inflation and wage increases this year, it's hard to hire anyone with wages under 1000 RMB. a few years, it's would be too expensive for China to under take any large scale infrastructure projects.


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## foxmulder

luhai167 said:


> Yeah, with inflation and wage increases this year, it's hard to hire anyone with wages under 1000 RMB. a few years, it's would be too expensive for China to under take any large scale infrastructure projects.


USA had been able to undertake intercity highway project when the salaries were much higher. So, I don't see any affordability problems for infrastructure projects in China foreseeable future. Moreover, when salaries increases, government income will increase too. 

Also, main issue with large scale infrastructure projects is, most of the time, political will, not the money.


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## pTaMo

*China ACM Awarded $3.4 Million China High-Speed Rail Contract*

BEIJING, Jun 23, 2010 (MARKETWIRE via COMTEX) -- China Advanced Construction Materials Group, Inc. /quotes/comstock/15*!cadc/quotes/nls/cadc (CADC 4.00, -0.01, -0.25%) ("China ACM"), a leading provider of ready-mix concrete and related technical services in China, today announced that China Rail Engineering Group has awarded the Company a contract valued at $3.4 million. 

China ACM is providing its premium ready-mix concrete (RMC) manufacturing services for a section of the Hangzhou to Ningbo high-speed passenger railway (HSR) in Zhejiang Province. The project, which is contracted by the Company's Manufacturing Services business segment, requires 460,000 cubic meters of its premium RMC and is expected to be completed in the first half of 2011. The Company's rapidly growing Manufacturing Services segment reported gross margins of 59 percent and 48 percent, for the three-month and nine-month period ending March 31, 2010, respectively.

"We're pleased to see strong growth in our backlog of China HSR projects," said Mr. Jeremy Goodwin, President and Chief Financial Officer of China ACM. "We increased our manufacturing services capacity by 33 percent with the addition of four new portable RMC plants during the third fiscal quarter, bringing our total number of portable plants to 16. We have a record volume of HSR contracts in our new business pipeline and, with our new portable plants being brought on line, we will capitalize on these new opportunities."

"As the massive Chinese Railway expansion continues, China ACM is gaining momentum as the go-to firm for the most demanding projects requiring high performance, premium RMC," said Mr. Xianfu Han, China ACM Chairman and Chief Executive Officer. "Our patented, premium RMC, used in HSR and other technically complex projects, merits premium pricing as it carries a 100-year warranty, double the industry average of 50 years."

"The dynamics of the China railway build out should drive sustainable growth for China ACM for many years to come. Analysts report that China's 6,552 km high-speed railway system is the longest in the world, and is expected to double to 13,000 km by 2012. This includes newly built high-speed links and existing track that has been upgraded to accommodate trains running 200-250 km/hour. According to the Ministry of Railways (MOR), railway construction last year created about six million jobs and generated demand for 20 million tons of steel and 120 million tons of cement. Over the next 10 years, the MOR plans to construct an additional 34,000 km of railway track in the country (of which 18,000 km will be HSR), more closely linking the Central and Western regions to coastal provinces," Mr. Xianfu Han added.

According to recent media reports, China is looking to invest an additional $102 billion to speed up the construction of high speed railway systems in the country. The state wants to add 4,613 kilometers of high speed railways to the 10,000 km lines already under construction. At the 2010 China (Changchun) International Rail Transit and Urban Development Forum, the government said it wants to add to the current Beijing-Harbin, Harbin, co-Fu, Jing Wu, Shanghai-Nanjing and many other lines. China will also further expand and improve the railway network layout, expand the scale of the western road network, improve the road network in the eastern part of the structure, and is planning a new 10,000 km railway.

About China ACM China ACM is a leading producer of advanced, certified eco-friendly ready-mix concrete (RMC) and related technical services for large scale, high-speed rail (HSR) and other complex infrastructure projects. Leveraging its proprietary technology and value add services model, the Company has won work on numerous high profile projects including the 30,000 km China HSR expansion, the Olympic Stadium Birds' Nest, Beijing South Railway Station, Beijing International Airport, National Centre for Performing Arts, CCTV Headquarters and U.S. and French embassies.

Founded in 2002, Beijing-based China ACM provides its materials and services through its network of five ready-mix concrete plants covering the Beijing metropolitan area. Of those five plants, it owns one and leases four. It also has technical services and preferred procurement agreements with five other independently-owned plants across China. Additionally, the Company presently owns 16 portable plants deployed in 10 provinces across China. Currently, its total RMC production designed capacity is in excess of 11 million cubic meters annually. Additional information about the Company is available at www.china-acm.com.

Forward Looking Statements This press release contains "forward-looking statements" within the meaning of the "safe-harbor" provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Such statements involve known and unknown risks, uncertainties and other factors that could cause the actual results of the Company to differ materially from the results expressed or implied by such statements, including changes from anticipated levels of sales, future national or regional economic and competitive and regulatory conditions, changes in relationships with customers, access to capital, difficulties in developing and marketing new products, marketing existing products, customer acceptance of existing and new products, and other factors. Additional Information regarding risks can be found in the Company's Annual Report on Form 10K and in the Company's recent report on Form 8K filed with the SEC. Accordingly, although the Company believes that the expectations reflected in such forward-looking statements are reasonable, there can be no assurance that such expectations will prove to be correct. The Company has no obligation to update the forward-looking information contained in this press release.


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## yaohua2000

Near Hami:


















Near Qilianshan:


















Near Zhangye:


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## Matchut

delete


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## foxmulder

Matchut said:


> There's going to be amazing scenery along this railway once it's completed. I'll have to travel it some time.



+1


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## koidkki

*it is good ,*

China will become increasingly attractive


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## joseph1951

drunkenmunkey888 said:


> Wikipedia says its gonna be 350 kmph
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanxin_High-Speed_Railway



Perhaps* only *some sections will be cleared for 350 km/h and some for 120-200km/h.. otherwise how can such a slow average commercial speed be explained?


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## yaohua2000

joseph1951 said:


> Perhaps* only *some sections will be cleared for 350 km/h and some for 120-200km/h.. otherwise how can such a slow average commercial speed be explained?


Beijing – Shijiazhuang South: 281 km
Shijiazhuang South – Zhengzhou East: ~380 km
Zhengzhou East – Xi'an North: 473 km
Xi'an North – Baoji South: 148 km
Baoji South – Lanzhou West: 401 km
Lanzhou West – Urumqi: 1776 km

Total distance from Beijing to Urumqi by new line: ~3460 km

Some sources say it will be 11 hours (ref 1), and others say it will be 12 (ref 2). Let's say 11.5 hours

3460 km / 11.5 hours = 301 km/h

On the latest timetable, the fast train from Wuhan to Guangzhou South is averaging 296 km/h (968 km in 03h16m) with one stop in Changsha South. 301 km/h in average is not slow at all.


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## foxmulder

yaohua2000 said:


> On the latest timetable, the fast train from Wuhan to Guangzhou South is averaging 296 km/h (968 km in 03h16m) with one stop in Changsha South. 301 km/h in average is not slow at all.


Of course not . As far as I know, that average speed makes it the fastest.


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## chornedsnorkack

yaohua2000 said:


> Beijing – Shijiazhuang South: 281 km
> Shijiazhuang South – Zhengzhou East: ~380 km
> Zhengzhou East – Xi'an North: 473 km
> Xi'an North – Baoji South: 148 km
> Baoji South – Lanzhou West: 401 km
> Lanzhou West – Urumqi: 1776 km
> 
> Total distance from Beijing to Urumqi by new line: ~3460 km


On the map, it looks like a big southward detour to reach Lanzhou via Zhengzhou.

Are there any plans for a shortcut between Beijing and Lanzhou via Taiyuan, Baotou or Huh-hoto?


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## yaohua2000

chornedsnorkack said:


> On the map, it looks like a big southward detour to reach Lanzhou via Zhengzhou.
> 
> Are there any plans for a shortcut between Beijing and Lanzhou via Taiyuan, Baotou or Huh-hoto?


No. The line from Taiyuan to Zhongwei, expected to be opened later this year, is designed for 160–200 km/h running.


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## joseph1951

yaohua2000 said:


> Beijing – Shijiazhuang South: 281 km
> Shijiazhuang South – Zhengzhou East: ~380 km
> Zhengzhou East – Xi'an North: 473 km
> Xi'an North – Baoji South: 148 km
> Baoji South – Lanzhou West: 401 km
> *Lanzhou West – Urumqi: 1776 km*
> 
> 1-
> *Total distance from Beijing to Urumqi by new line: ~3460 km*Some sources say it will be 11 hours (ref 1), and others say it will be 12 (ref 2). Let's say 11.5 hours
> 
> 3460 km / 11.5 hours = 301 km/h
> 
> 
> On the latest timetable, the fast train from *Wuhan to Guangzhou South is averaging 296 km/h (968 km in 03h16m) with one stop in Changsha South. 301 km/h in average is not slow at all*.


Dear yaohua2000,
Thank you very much indeed for your explanations.
.
*I thought that the entire line was 1,776 km and the 12-14 hours referred to just this section..*...so I have divided 1,776 :12 =..148 km/h of average commercial speed. 

This did not make too much sense to me .. for a line planned for 350 km/h, and this also in view of the recent Chinese world commercial speed records...

Impressive achievement.
Now I feel much better


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## SimFox

i seriously doubt this line is gonna be 350km/h. Wiki says it is expected to cost 143,5 bln rmb. eg less than 27% more than Wuhan-Guangzhou line that is almost half the length (about 54%). Yet another 350km/h line - Beijing Shanghai will cost 220,9 bln RMB for just 1302 km.

So, I think, the 350km/h speed mentioned refers not to the entire line, but just the fastest stretch of it. Besides, the source of it hardly credible...
Also the only place that actually states 12 hours from Urumqi to Beijing is just a first post in this thread by Yaohua2000. There is no any credible confirmation of it anywhere else.


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## foxmulder

SimFox said:


> i seriously doubt this line is gonna be 350km/h. Wiki says it is expected to cost 143,5 bln rmb. eg less than 27% more than Wuhan-Guangzhou line that is almost half the length (about 54%). Yet another 350km/h line - Beijing Shanghai will cost 220,9 bln RMB for just 1302 km.
> 
> So, I think, the 350km/h speed mentioned refers not to the entire line, but just the fastest stretch of it. Besides, the source of it hardly credible...
> Also the only place that actually states 12 hours from Urumqi to Beijing is just a first post in this thread by Yaohua2000. There is no any credible confirmation of it anywhere else.


Well, for this line the land cost is virtually "zero". There is much less elevated parts. Only expensive part might be where they need wind curtains and I bet it will be still much cheaper than elevated railroad. So I don't think that amount of money is little for 350km/h line.


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## SimFox

All the land in China is always owned by state and nobody else. People on land are mere long term lease holders. Although state does pay some sort of compensations this in no way (unless this land "magically" happens to be in lease by some "very special families") anywhere same as if that would be private property. So I wouldn't factor "land price" as too impotent factor into cost consideration. 
Extremely harsh climate conditions where ti will pass through on the other hand are completely out of gov control. Much greater difference between summer and winter and ever day and night temperature would inevitably add to the cost. 
Elevated track is used because it is most cost effective way to stabilize it. And you don't really know how much of it will be laid here. Area is very seismically unstable.
so when you add all together there is NO way that 350km/h line could be built in such conditions at the cost of 11 ml $us per km.

Besides till just now when this article surface in that online source that very vaguely source it on its end - first sight that you shouldn't take it seriously - nowhere has this project had been said to be 350 km/h. In fact I distinctly remember number of 200 or 250 km/h.. And the whole 12 hour Beijing to Urumqi thing has never been state ANYWHERE. In fact I'm sure it comes fro this hypothetical map and assumption:








typical "what if" speculation. Mind you it appears to be made by Yaohua2000 and as a source "own work" is credited. So, in a sense he is crediting himself. One must be critical of the sources of information and not just repeat anything that someone written somewhere in the Internet.

BTW in the same Wikipedia article containing that map by Yaohua2000 table of 
"Other Passenger Designated High Speed Railways" claims this line (Lanzhou-Xinjiang PDL (Lanxin Passenger Designated Line) to be 300km/h.

So, when you add all these together imho there nothing more that burning desire of some people that goes for 350km/h here. No way such a line could be built in such conditions at such cost.


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## foxmulder

SimFox said:


> All the land in China is always owned by state and nobody else. People on land are mere long term lease holders. Although state does pay some sort of compensations this in no way (unless this land "magically" happens to be in lease by some "very special families") anywhere same as if that would be private property. So I wouldn't factor "land price" as too impotent factor into cost consideration.
> Extremely harsh climate conditions where ti will pass through on the other hand are completely out of gov control. Much greater difference between summer and winter and ever day and night temperature would inevitably add to the cost.
> Elevated track is used because it is most cost effective way to stabilize it. And you don't really know how much of it will be laid here. Area is very seismically unstable.
> so when you add all together there is NO way that 350km/h line could be built in such conditions at the cost of 11 ml $us per km.
> 
> Besides till just now when this article surface in that online source that very vaguely source it on its end - first sight that you shouldn't take it seriously - nowhere has this project had been said to be 350 km/h. In fact I distinctly remember number of 200 or 250 km/h.. And the whole 12 hour Beijing to Urumqi thing has never been state ANYWHERE. In fact I'm sure it comes fro this hypothetical map and assumption:
> 
> typical "what if" speculation. Mind you it appears to be made by Yaohua2000 and as a source "own work" is credited. So, in a sense he is crediting himself. One must be critical of the sources of information and not just repeat anything that someone written somewhere in the Internet.
> 
> BTW in the same Wikipedia article containing that map by Yaohua2000 table of
> "Other Passenger Designated High Speed Railways" claims this line (Lanzhou-Xinjiang PDL (Lanxin Passenger Designated Line) to be 300km/h.
> 
> So, when you add all these together imho there nothing more that burning desire of some people that goes for 350km/h here. No way such a line could be built in such conditions at such cost.




If you like high speed railroads, you should have some of that "burning desire", too. It is not a bad thing

What I remember from news is that this railroad will have a turning radius of 7000m. This is why I think It can be 350km/h line. 

I know land is leased to people in China but it is for 99 years. In all projects government pays to relocate people. In eastern regions it sums quite a lot. In western regions it is nothing simply because population density is nothing. 

Although conditions are harsh it is not Tibet or crazy mountainous like some other parts where you need tunnels followed by bridges etc. 

Not much of this;










Even this line is a 250km/h line it is still very impressive and I don't have anything to complain.

Also, this project might be the fist phase of that Europe-China HSR, who knows...


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## yaohua2000

SimFox said:


> All the land in China is always owned by state and nobody else. People on land are mere long term lease holders. Although state does pay some sort of compensations this in no way (unless this land "magically" happens to be in lease by some "very special families") anywhere same as if that would be private property. So I wouldn't factor "land price" as too impotent factor into cost consideration.
> Extremely harsh climate conditions where ti will pass through on the other hand are completely out of gov control. Much greater difference between summer and winter and ever day and night temperature would inevitably add to the cost.
> Elevated track is used because it is most cost effective way to stabilize it. And you don't really know how much of it will be laid here. Area is very seismically unstable.
> so when you add all together there is NO way that 350km/h line could be built in such conditions at the cost of 11 ml $us per km.
> 
> Besides till just now when this article surface in that online source that very vaguely source it on its end - first sight that you shouldn't take it seriously - nowhere has this project had been said to be 350 km/h. In fact I distinctly remember number of 200 or 250 km/h.. And the whole 12 hour Beijing to Urumqi thing has never been state ANYWHERE. In fact I'm sure it comes fro this hypothetical map and assumption:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> typical "what if" speculation. Mind you it appears to be made by Yaohua2000 and as a source "own work" is credited. So, in a sense he is crediting himself. One must be critical of the sources of information and not just repeat anything that someone written somewhere in the Internet.
> 
> BTW in the same Wikipedia article containing that map by Yaohua2000 table of
> "Other Passenger Designated High Speed Railways" claims this line (Lanzhou-Xinjiang PDL (Lanxin Passenger Designated Line) to be 300km/h.
> 
> So, when you add all these together imho there nothing more that burning desire of some people that goes for 350km/h here. No way such a line could be built in such conditions at such cost.


^^ This is not my original work, it is my reproduce from a television shot, which is copyrighted, not suitable for Wikipedia.


----------



## Nozumi 300

wrong thread


----------



## chornedsnorkack

yaohua2000 said:


> Beijing – Shijiazhuang South: 281 km
> Shijiazhuang South – Zhengzhou East: ~380 km
> Zhengzhou East – Xi'an North: 473 km
> Xi'an North – Baoji South: 148 km
> Baoji South – Lanzhou West: 401 km
> Lanzhou West – Urumqi: 1776 km
> 
> Total distance from Beijing to Urumqi by new line: ~3460 km
> 
> Some sources say it will be 11 hours (ref 1), and others say it will be 12 (ref 2). Let's say 11.5 hours
> 
> 3460 km / 11.5 hours = 301 km/h


How are such speeds feasible? Considering the functional part has average speed of just 232 km/h, covering Zhengzhou-Xian in 1:58?

When shall Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou railway open? Something like 660 km.

And what shall be the trip time Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Xian, including the station stops?


----------



## yaohua2000

chornedsnorkack said:


> How are such speeds feasible? Considering the functional part has average speed of just 232 km/h, covering Zhengzhou-Xian in 1:58?
> 
> When shall Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou railway open? Something like 660 km.
> 
> And what shall be the trip time Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Xian, including the station stops?


Zhengzhou-Xi'an is slow because trains currently using old stations on old tracks. The travel time will be shorten a lot after the new stations to be opened.


----------



## MarcVD

foxmulder said:


> Not to mention it will probably be cheaper.


Sure of that ? In Europe, flying is usually cheaper than the train on the same journey... The différence is due to the fact that

1) airlines have competitors while high-speed rail doesn't (yet?)

2) your occupancy of the train seat is 3-4 times longer than on the plane, along with the trainset, personnel, etc, that goes with it.
For a journey of, say, 1000 km, a high-speed train will usually be able to do one round trip per day, while a plane will do 3 or 4...
For non high-speed, it is even worse, a train trip from Brussels to Istanbul will usually cost € 300 not including bed accomodation,
while a flight on the same journey can be obtained for less than € 100...


----------



## UD2

MarcVD said:


> Sure of that ? In Europe, flying is usually cheaper than the train on the same journey... The différence is due to the fact that
> 
> 1) airlines have competitors while high-speed rail doesn't (yet?)
> 
> 2) your occupancy of the train seat is 3-4 times longer than on the plane, along with the trainset, personnel, etc, that goes with it.
> For a journey of, say, 1000 km, a high-speed train will usually be able to do one round trip per day, while a plane will do 3 or 4...
> For non high-speed, it is even worse, a train trip from Brussels to Istanbul will usually cost € 300 not including bed accomodation,
> while a flight on the same journey can be obtained for less than € 100...


China is the reverse.


----------



## UD2

SimFox said:


> All the land in China is always owned by state and nobody else. People on land are mere long term lease holders. Although state does pay some sort of compensations this in no way (unless this land "magically" happens to be in lease by some "very special families") anywhere same as if that would be private property. So I wouldn't factor "land price" as too impotent factor into cost consideration.
> Extremely harsh climate conditions where ti will pass through on the other hand are completely out of gov control. Much greater difference between summer and winter and ever day and night temperature would inevitably add to the cost.
> Elevated track is used because it is most cost effective way to stabilize it. And you don't really know how much of it will be laid here. Area is very seismically unstable.
> so when you add all together there is NO way that 350km/h line could be built in such conditions at the cost of 11 ml $us per km.
> 
> Besides till just now when this article surface in that online source that very vaguely source it on its end - first sight that you shouldn't take it seriously - nowhere has this project had been said to be 350 km/h. In fact I distinctly remember number of 200 or 250 km/h.. And the whole 12 hour Beijing to Urumqi thing has never been state ANYWHERE. In fact I'm sure it comes fro this hypothetical map and assumption:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> typical "what if" speculation. Mind you it appears to be made by Yaohua2000 and as a source "own work" is credited. So, in a sense he is crediting himself. One must be critical of the sources of information and not just repeat anything that someone written somewhere in the Internet.
> 
> BTW in the same Wikipedia article containing that map by Yaohua2000 table of
> "Other Passenger Designated High Speed Railways" claims this line (Lanzhou-Xinjiang PDL (Lanxin Passenger Designated Line) to be 300km/h.
> 
> So, when you add all these together imho there nothing more that burning desire of some people that goes for 350km/h here. No way such a line could be built in such conditions at such cost.


Costing seem reasonable. 

Land acquisition cost in China is very expansive. The part where the government extorts the current land users are mostly [email protected] promulgated by many anti-Chinese groups who uses it as an example to advance their own other motives. 

I have Chinese friends who's got very good deals for the redevelopment of their property. Forgive me if I believe them more than I believe you.


This railway will be built on flat desert terrain with minimal bridges and tunnels. This is comparing to Wuhan-Guangzhou's plethora of tunnels and Beijing-Shanghai's urbanized and owned farming real estate. 

I can see this happening.

Althought the reason for this to happen will most likely be political rather than economical.


----------



## NCT

MarcVD said:


> Sure of that ? In Europe, flying is usually cheaper than the train on the same journey... The différence is due to the fact that
> 
> 1) airlines have competitors while high-speed rail doesn't (yet?)
> 
> 2) your occupancy of the train seat is 3-4 times longer than on the plane, along with the trainset, personnel, etc, that goes with it.
> For a journey of, say, 1000 km, a high-speed train will usually be able to do one round trip per day, while a plane will do 3 or 4...
> For non high-speed, it is even worse, a train trip from Brussels to Istanbul will usually cost € 300 not including bed accomodation,
> while a flight on the same journey can be obtained for less than € 100...


I'm not very familiar with trains on the continent so please excuse some questions.

In the UK train ticket prices vary according to how early in advanced it is booked just like airlines. Is it the same on the mainland and if you could shed more light on like-for-like comparisons (like advance purchase vs advance purchase and walk-up vs walk-up) that'd be great. How do the two modes on Paris - Berlin corridor compare for example?


----------



## SimFox

yaohua2000 said:


> ^^ This is not my original work, it is my reproduce from a television shot, which is copyrighted, not suitable for Wikipedia.


click on picture to see large (2000 pix wide shot)

I see... actually I think I know where this map is from... it is displayed at the waiting hole of Beijing South Railway station. But I'm sure it is a "hypothetical" / "what if" map rather than a firm plan.

I do love fast trains and Chinese ones particularly. And I do have desire. Yet I don't want to burn to the level of where it start to replays or distort reality.

Well I may be wrong...
At any rate here is a Map that is displayed in Beijing South for sure - photographed it myself:



according to it the line to Urumqi is NOT even dedicated passenger line (those are marked by thick red lines)! Which I would imagine makes it 200-250km/h max line.
Also it has never been listed among PDL lines


----------



## chornedsnorkack

SimFox said:


> I see... actually I think I know where this map is from... it is displayed at the waiting hole of Beijing South Railway station. But I'm sure it is a "hypothetical" / "what if" map rather than a firm plan.
> 
> I do love fast trains and Chinese ones particularly. And I do have desire. Yet I don't want to burn to the level of where it start to replays or distort reality.


Then who put the map up at Beijing South?

What is realistic (and the map does not say when)?

Are Zhengzhou East and Xian North under construction?

Is it realistic to open them in 2011? Which month of 2011 is each of them due to open? And what shall be the trip time after they both have opened?

Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Xian is about 1150 km. Only 200 km longer than Wuhan-Guangzhou, which does have 300 km/h average speed.

When Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Xian shall open, shall 4 hours be a realistic trip time?


----------



## SimFox

chornedsnorkack said:


> Then who put the map up at Beijing South?


I might have been wrong about it being there. And, I think, you can see why - take a look at my message and the map there. That map was/is in the Beijing South and this map is by Ministry or Railways



chornedsnorkack said:


> What is realistic (and the map does not say when)?
> 
> Are Zhengzhou East and Xian North under construction?
> 
> Is it realistic to open them in 2011? Which month of 2011 is each of them due to open? And what shall be the trip time after they both have opened?
> 
> Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Xian is about 1150 km. Only 200 km longer than Wuhan-Guangzhou, which does have 300 km/h average speed.
> 
> When Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Xian shall open, shall 4 hours be a realistic trip time?


Speed depends not on the length per se, but on the construction and VERY much material used.
Take a look here Xian will have 350 km/h line.
Also it is clearly shown on "my" map that it has PDL stretching east and west from it. PDL doesn't yet mean 350km/h, but it means it could be. If line is NOT PDL, it can NOT be 350km/h


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## yaohua2000

SimFox said:


> At any rate here is a Map that is displayed in Beijing South for sure - photographed it myself:
> 
> 
> 
> according to it the line to Urumqi is NOT even dedicated passenger line (those are marked by thick red lines)! Which I would imagine makes it 200-250km/h max line.
> Also it has never been listed among PDL lines


This map had been there for two years. Lots of things has been changed since then.


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## chornedsnorkack

SimFox said:


> Speed depends not on the length per se, but on the construction and VERY much material used.


Certainly. But the data on length, intended travel time and intended speed are dependent on each other and can be used to cross-check against each other.


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## SimFox

only if that data (I assume you are talking about travel time) is reliable. 
My very point was that it is NOT reliable. 
Cost of the line, it abcens on the official map all suggest it.

The only evidence that this is gonna be 350km/h line comes from the map that also shows SAME type of line to Lhasa! Did you NOT noticed that?!
Would you also say that 350km/h line is in works to Lhasa as well? 
In fact the map shows lines to ALL provincial capitols (as far as I see). That, to me a perfect proof that this is "what if " map.

Critical approach to evidence is a very important thing, otherwise you'd believe just anything people say to you...


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## earthJoker

Knuddel Knutsch said:


> The Transatlantic Tunnel as well as Swissmetro are pie in the sky.
> 
> China is big enough and its economy is growing strong enough to really build this thing...


We will see, the Chinese seem to like to announce new transport technologies nowadays. First that bus now this.

The Swissmetro is more of a university project than a real one.


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## AlexisMD

and they need to develop a lot of new technology by themselves. (that is hard for china sometimes ) Special pressurized trains, safety and evacuation system in case of decompression and a lot lot more 
Will see


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## eddeux

^^ Well they've got the money


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## Republica

To think i came up with this idea when i was about 7.

Yeah ok someone probably thought it up in the 70's too but i did it in the early 90's.


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## Republica

AlexisMD said:


> and they need to develop a lot of new technology by themselves. (that is hard for china sometimes ) Special pressurized trains, safety and evacuation system in case of decompression and a lot lot more
> Will see


A low pressure tunnel isnt exactly too much to develop. Maglev exists. Trains with pressurised interiors also exist.

The technology is pretty much there, its just a case of combining it.


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## BigBee

èđđeůx;61561191 said:


> I wouldn't say they copied the idea. In fact, I'd love to see a train like this in the US but that would take a decade after suggestion to get funding started, then another few decades to actually get it done .:lol:


That's because the US government realizes it has to pay its bills, and there are far more important things than building a 111 kph train (like social security and Medicare). All this stuff is nice but China should know it's never going to pay for itself.


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## El_Greco

No, its because US has no money and neither do most of the Western countries. Infact the West is fast running out of steam, while the East, on the other hand seems to be gaining momentum and if we dont up our game we are fcuked.


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## Fizmo1337

We don't need a 1000km/h train in Western Europe. It wouldn't add a lot while it would cost a huge amount of money.


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## El_Greco

No, we dont and I did not say that we did. However the West is looking a little bit tired these days, indeed just look at the state of our economies.


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## leadbelly

Why no pictures on first page ?
:redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx::redx:


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## thun

Just the same was said in the mid 90ies right before the crisis in Asia. You can't predict something like that on the long run, especially not in a more and more closely linked (and hence more complex) world.


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## Bandit

I love how people are trying to lay claim to an idea. By that logic then the space shuttle idea was thought up by a Chinese man who was one of the founders of the US Jet Propulsion Lab and then was deported from the United States because they didn't want no Chinese in an important role like that and be forgotten in history. And before that where would you be with rockets? How about all the others things today that has its basic origins in China?


----------



## SamuraiBlue

Bandit said:


> I love how people are trying to lay claim to an idea. By that logic then the space shuttle idea was thought up by a Chinese man who was one of the founders of the US Jet Propulsion Lab and then was deported from the United States because they didn't want no Chinese in an important role like that and be forgotten in history. And before that where would you be with rockets? How about all the others things today that has its basic origins in China?



Auhh are you telling us that one of Caltech professor Theodore von Kármán's grad students in the 30's was Chinese?
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/fact_sheets/jpl.pdf
Because that is when Jet Propulsion Laboratory started and how does it correlate to the space shuttle that was designed in the 70's?

FYI; Rocket *science* first started by a scientist named Robert Goddard at the start of the 20th century.


----------



## Ariel74

SamuraiBlue said:


> Auhh are you telling us that one of Caltech professor Theodore von Kármán's grad students in the 30's was Chinese?
> http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/fact_sheets/jpl.pdf
> Because that is when Jet Propulsion Laboratory started


You are coming off as awfully ignorant. Indeed, one of von Kármán's star students was Qian Xuesen. According to the Wiki-Artikel on Qian-Xuesen:



> In 1943, Qian and two others in the Caltech rocketry group drafted the first document to use the name Jet Propulsion Laboratory;


After returning to China, Qian single-handedly built up China's rocket/satellite launch program. It's probably the worst strategic mistake for America to purge him.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

Ariel74 said:


> You are coming off as awfully ignorant. Indeed, one of von Kármán's star students was Qian Xuesen. According to the Wiki-Artikel on Qian-Xuesen:


Ignorant about Qian Xuesen maybe don't know if he was a star student but my point still stands as how does he have any correlation with the space shuttle program that started in the 70's.


----------



## Bandit

SamuraiBlue said:


> Auhh are you telling us that one of Caltech professor Theodore von Kármán's grad students in the 30's was Chinese?
> http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/fact_sheets/jpl.pdf
> Because that is when Jet Propulsion Laboratory started and how does it correlate to the space shuttle that was designed in the 70's?
> 
> FYI; Rocket *science* first started by a scientist named Robert Goddard at the start of the 20th century.


Yes, it's well documented and known. And that man because he was deported back to China became the father of China's space program. Still don't believe it? Why? Because they would never allow a Chinese in such a important role? Hence why they trumped up charges and deported him and why you never heard of him. And yes he thought up of a reusable return vehicle into space way back in the 30s and 40s. And the Chinese invented rockets long before the 20th century.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

Bandit said:


> Yes, it's well documented and known. And that man because he was deported back to China became the father of China's space program. Still don't believe it? Why? Because they would never allow a Chinese in such a important role? Hence why they trumped up charges and deported him and why you never heard of him. And yes he thought up of a reusable return vehicle into space way back in the 30s and 40s. And the Chinese invented rockets long before the 20th century.


Oh boy talk about victim psychology, from reading the entry about him in Wiki, he was accused of being Communist not because of racist. 
As for reusable return vehicles the idea is not anything new, they were staples of Sci-Fi of those days starting with Buck Rogers.
And if you read my post more closely I stated in *bold* rocket *science*.
If you want large fire cracker rockets propelled by gun powder Japan has a festival shooting dozens every year for the past 300 years.:lol:


----------



## Bandit

SamuraiBlue said:


> Oh boy talk about victim psychology, from reading the entry about him in Wiki, he was accused of being Communist not because of racist.
> As for reusable return vehicles the idea is not anything new, they were staples of Sci-Fi of those days starting with Buck Rogers.
> And if you read my post more closely I stated in *bold* rocket *science*.
> If you want large fire cracker rockets propelled by gun powder Japan has a festival shooting dozens every year for the past 300 years.:lol:


Look at the guy who never heard of this until now. What does it say about what you know? You don't seem to read correctly. I was using the logic of those in here who claim China stole the idea for this train. So blame your own for that stupid logic. No one has ever built it and we don't know if the Chinese will make it work. Yet you insecure for future types want to lay claim to an idea. Ergo, it was a Chinese who invented rockets and it was a Chinese who thought up the idea for the space shuttle. So by your logic, Chinese can take credit. Love how you guys backtrack when your own logic works against you. Typical. 

The irony is you insecure for the future types better hope it works the first time around because then there's some thin flimsy excuse you can hang on to to take credit. But if it doesn't work... you take credit, you also get to know your idea failed.

And you how he was labeled a communist? Back when he was in Cal Tech as a student, he took a class where one of his classmates he didn't know at all married a woman later in life who the government labeled a communist. That's his communist connection he was deported for. 

Plenty of ancient artwork around the world including China depicting travelling in space before Buck Rogers or Jules Vern. And where do you think Japan got those rockets from? Certainly not Japan. What other contradicting logic from the guy who didn't know a few posts ago until he Googled it are you going to rely on now? :banana::banana:


----------



## fragel

Guys, chill. It still remains a lab project. The idea is not certainly new, but no one has been able to carry it out. 

However, I kinda doubt this will be commercially available in 10 years. I'd be happy if they could develop the technology though.

plus, even if they have the new technology, there will still be another debate over which technology to use, just like the one between Maglev and HSR a couple of years ago. Ironically, it was the Minister of Railway that listed all sorts of disadvantages of Maglev and won the debate. A maglev in a tube is certainly less terrifying to residents living nearby, but it is still not practical at this moment.


----------



## Ariel74

SamuraiBlue said:


> If you want large fire cracker rockets propelled by gun powder Japan has a festival shooting dozens every year for the past 300 years.:lol:


which would probably not have been possible without the chinese invention of gunpowder. 

Don't be carried away like Bandit is. Japan is not exactly a space-power, nor has it been particularly known for original ideas historically speaking.


----------



## eddeux

earthJoker said:


> Of course, it's called saturation, and China will hopefully reach it one day too. Reaching saturation is IMO a good thing, because it means you have reached a high level, while stagnation on the other hand is standing still on a low level.


I know, but China's day may be long off. I mean Europe was able to grow at decent growth rates for decades after initial industrialization so I think the same will be said w/ China. 
I don't know why but I've always pictured the UK and France as having the highest growth rates in Western Europe. Partially due to their still increasing populations. :cheer:


----------



## hkskyline

*High-speed trains leave airports in their wake *
19 August 2010
South China Morning Post

There are no guards, fighter jets or air traffic controllers at Shaoguan's military airport.

Children cycle around the cowpats and weeds on the runway and ducks paddle in a pond 50 metres from the abandoned flight control tower.

The duck keeper, a man in his 40s who lives in a farmhouse next to the pond, says he hasn't seen a plane for years. "The last time I saw a plane landing has got to be over eight years ago," he says. "For a long time there has been talk of expanding the airport for civil use, but there is no sign of that happening."

It's probably not the picture Guangdong policymakers had in mind two years ago when they announced a plan costing 300 million yuan (HK$342.22 million) to revive Shaoguan Guitou airport by this year in order to boost investment and tourism in the city, Guangdong's northern gateway. Under the plan, the airport would become a regional air traffic hub, specialising in short- and medium-haul flights. But the airport's prospects have not improved since the Wuhan to Guangzhou high-speed railway began operating at the end of last year.

Shaoguan is about 220 kilometres north of Guangzhou, and that means three to five hours by car, or two hours in traditional trains. But the high-speed trains have cut the travel time from Guangzhou to Shaoguan to just 45 minutes.

Shaoguan is hardly an isolated case. Just like the frenzy to build airports a few years ago, mainland cities are now scrambling to be part of the nation's ambitious high-speed railway network.

Shaoguan airport, about 30 kilometres north of the city centre near the town of Guitou, was built in the 1970s as a second-grade military airport, according to the Yangcheng Evening News. For a couple of years from 1986 it welcomed passenger and cargo planes from the provincial capital, Guangzhou. By the time the flights ended, in November 1989, 492 flights had carried 21,000 passengers between the two cities.

Plans to expand the airport, sited on 370 hectares of land and boasting a 2,200-metre runway, date to 1998, when officials announced plans for a 280 million yuan upgrade that would have featured another runway, a new, 5,000 square metre terminal and a large flight control tower - enabling the airport to handle planes such as Boeing 737s.

However, Shaoguan has good road connections to neighbouring cities and provinces and streets in the city centre are quiet, even on weekends. Public buses are hardly ever more than half full and it's hard to imagine how such a small city - with an urban population of 1.2 million - could ever provide enough passengers to sustain an airport.

For many, though, the idea of riding a high-speed train is as far-fetched as flying. A 24-year-old from Shaoguan, who works in Guangzhou delivering express mail said he needed to return home for big festivals but preferred cheaper, slower options.

"It's so close to home anyway, so I don't mind the extra hours on the bus," he said. "And the truth is, even if I lived in Henan province, I wouldn't go for the high-speed trains because I just can't afford them."

After Shaoguan, the high-speed train from Guangzhou stops in Changsha , Hunan province, before arriving in Wuhan, the Hubei provincial capital.

High-speed rail links take 90 per cent of the high-end market for trips under two hours and 50 to 70 per cent of journeys under four hours, according to a study by carnoc.com, a website run by the General Administration of Civil Aviation.

Taiyuan Wushu International Airport is one of many to have suffered.

The high-speed rail service linking Taiyuan, in Shanxi province, with Shijiazhuang in Hebei and Beijing started operating in April last year. In the year after it opened, 400,000 fewer people chose to fly between Taiyuan and Beijing or vice versa, a drop of more than 40 per cent, according to a Taiyuan airport spokeswoman. "Before the high-speed rail came onto the market, we used to offer 13 flights a day from the two destinations," she said. "But now, that's down to about six to eight fights a day."

Since December, when the Wuhan-Guangzhou high-speed line opened, the number of daily flights between Guangzhou and Changsha has shrunk from 12 to five. Even more dramatically, the launching of a high-speed rail service between Zhengzhou in Henan and Xian in Shaanxi in February spelled the end of all flights between the two cities just a month later.

The high-speed rail service cut the time a train takes to cover the 505 kilometre journey from more than six hours to less than two. Flying between the two cities takes just over an hour but Xian's airport is at least an hour's drive from the city centre, making rail a clear-cut winner.

Before the high-speed rail link started service, domestic carrier Joy Air was able to fill more than 60 per cent of its seats on the route, which was also serviced by Henan Airlines.

The mainland began an airport construction binge 20 years ago, and it continues. There are more than 140 airports scattered across the country and there are plans for almost a hundred more in the next 10 years.

In a bid to counter the expanding high-speed railway network, eight major airports in the pan-Pearl River Delta region announced nine new services last month, with more frequent schedules and express check-in counters to strengthen connections in Guangdong, Fujian , Jiangxi , Guangxi , Hainan , Sichuan , Guizhou and Yunnan.

Sun Yat-sen University professor Zheng Tianxiang , who specialises in transport studies, says it is not necessary to have so many small and medium-sized airports when high-speed railways can more efficiently link passengers to major international airports.

After witnessing the catastrophic impact that high-speed rail services have had on the aviation industry, no government officials, aviation insiders or academics were willing to comment on the progress of plans to upgrade Shaoguan's airport.

A Guangdong airport authority source said it was not the right time to comment because policymakers were still deciding what to do.


----------



## hkhui

I WANT THIS VACTRAIN! EUROPE-CHINA IN 2 HOURS!:dance:


----------



## letsgo

1000km/h = 0.8 speed of sound = speed of airplane.


----------



## YelloPerilo

hkhui said:


> I WANT THIS VACTRAIN! EUROPE-CHINA IN 2 HOURS!:dance:


It will still take about 10 h to reach Berlin. But yeah, it would still be better than airplane! :cheers:


----------



## Ariel74

It ain't going to happen in the medium term. The professors cited in the initial reports about the project have explained to the media recently that they were *misquoted*, and that there is currently *no ongoing project* to build and test any versions of the vactrain.


----------



## gougou

great!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## yaohua2000

According to the latest report, Wuhan-Guangzhou Line transported over 100 thousand people in a single day on October 1. Since September 20, more services were added. There are 80 train services from each direction on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays, or 75 daily services from Mondays to Thursdays.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/society/2010-10/01/c_12626311.htm


----------



## chornedsnorkack

yaohua2000 said:


> Since September 20, more services were added. There are 80 train services from each direction on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays, or 75 daily services from Mondays to Thursdays.


Are there any plans to add services on Wuhan-Guangzhou line that continue beyond the line in either end?


----------



## foxmulder

chornedsnorkack said:


> Are there any plans to add services on Wuhan-Guangzhou line that continue beyond the line in either end?


Once Guangzhou-Hong Kong and Beijing-Wuhan lines completed, one can travel from Beijing to Hong Kong. Actually even from Harbin to Hong Kong which will be an *epic *high speed travel


----------



## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> Once Guangzhou-Hong Kong and Beijing-Wuhan lines completed, one can travel from Beijing to Hong Kong.


Is Guangzhou-Shenzhen railway completed to open on Saturday the 30th instant?


----------



## yaohua2000

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is Guangzhou-Shenzhen railway completed to open on Saturday the 30th instant?


Actually, the 10.8-km long Shiziyang Tunnel under Pearl River has not been finished. An estimated open date in December 2010 should be the earliest.


----------



## Luli Pop

yaohua2000 said:


> There are* 80 train services from each direction on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays*, or 75 daily services from Mondays to Thursdays.


^^
I'm sure we'll see double deckers HST sooner than expected

160trains in one line is a lot.
how many in rush hour?

this is soon to come:


----------



## Nozumi 300

During rush hour the frequency is about every 15mins.


----------



## yaohua2000

Nozumi 300 said:


> During rush hour the frequency is about every 15mins.


Incorrect. How can rush hour interval be 15 minutes if average interval is only 11 minutes?

Guangzhou South station departures (northward):
- 06:50 to Wuhan
- 06:55 to Changsha South
- 07:05 to Wuhan
- 07:17 to Wuhan
- 07:22 to Changsha South
- 07:32 to Wuhan
- 07:39 to Wuhan
- 07:55 to Wuhan
- 08:05 to Changsha South
- 08:15 to Wuhan
- 08:22 to Changsha South
- 08:36 to Wuhan
- 08:44 to Wuhan
- 09:00 to Wuhan
- 09:08 to Wuhan
- 09:13 to Changsha South
- 09:22 to Wuhan
- 09:36 to Wuhan
- 09:52 to Wuhan
- 10:00 to Wuhan
- 10:06 to Wuhan
- 10:20 to Wuhan
- 10:29 to Changsha South
- 10:45 to Wuhan
- 10:57 to Wuhan
- 11:07 to Changsha South
- 11:20 to Wuhan
- 11:33 to Wuhan
- 11:46 to Wuhan
- 12:00 to Changsha South
- 12:16 to Wuhan
- 12:28 to Wuhan
- 12:33 to Wuhan
- 12:51 to Wuhan
- 12:57 to Changsha South
- 13:05 to Wuhan
- 13:30 to Wuhan
- 13:36 to Wuhan
- 13:51 to Changsha South
- 14:00 to Wuhan
- 14:10 to Wuhan
- 14:20 to Changsha South
- 14:25 to Wuhan
- 14:36 to Wuhan
- 14:43 to Changsha South
- 15:00 to Wuhan
- 15:05 to Wuhan
- 15:15 to Wuhan
- 15:28 to Changsha South
- 15:38 to Wuhan
- 15:49 to Changsha South
- 16:00 to Wuhan
- 16:10 to Wuhan
- 16:21 to Changsha South
- 16:34 to Wuhan
- 16:45 to Wuhan
- 17:00 to Wuhan
- 17:05 to Changsha South
- 17:10 to Wuhan
- 17:22 to Changsha South
- 17:32 to Wuhan
- 17:44 to Changsha South
- 17:54 to Wuhan
- 18:00 to Wuhan
- 18:15 to Changsha South
- 18:25 to Wuhan
- 18:40 to Changsha South
- 18:50 to Changsha South
- 19:20 to Changsha South
- 19:28 to Changsha South
- 19:38 to Wuhan
- 20:00 to Wuhan
- 20:25 to Changsha South
- 20:50 to Changsha South
- 21:30 to Changsha South


----------



## foxmulder

That time table almost look like for a subway line


----------



## yaohua2000

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/dfpd/hunan/2010-10-04/content_961953.html

According to report, the Wuhan–Guangzhou HSR line transported 118 thousand people on October 1, 2010, in a single day.


----------



## foxmulder

yaohua2000 said:


> http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/dfpd/hunan/2010-10-04/content_961953.html
> 
> According to report, the Wuhan–Guangzhou HSR line transported 118 thousand people on October 1, 2010, in a single day.


that number is almost like a subway line too. To put things in perspective, Boston Red Line carries ~175.000 per day.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> that number is almost like a subway line too. To put things in perspective, Boston Red Line carries ~175.000 per day.


The real comparison, of course, is Shinkansen.
http://www.shinkansen.co.jp/jikoku_hyo/en/sanyou/sdh_tokyo.html

Wuhan-Guangzhou line has at most 7 trains in an hour (17:00 to 17:54). Tokaido Shinkansen has 12 trains at rush hours (9:00 to 9:56 and 18:00 to 18:56).

How do seat counts on CRH trains compare against Shinkansen?


----------



## yaohua2000

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/dfpd/gansu/2010-10-01/content_954064.html



> 祁连山特长双线隧道地处甘青交界，是兰新铁路第二双线建设的重要组成部分。该隧道正洞长9.88千米，跨越海拨高度3858米，被称为兰新铁路第二双线“第一高隧”。祁连山特长双线隧道由中铁20局集团公司承建，数百名指战员工发扬“铁军”的英勇善战精神，日夜奋战，工人们说：“我们是‘晴天干两天、雨天干满天’。”
> 
> 截止9月30日，隧道正洞整体掘进188米，成洞128米。


Qilianshan tunnel, on the border of Gansu and Qinghai provinces, is an integral part of Lanxin's construction. The main tunnel is 9.88 kilometers long, up to 3858 meters above sea level, is the highest tunnel of the line. It is constructed by the Chinese Railway No. 20 Bureau Group Corporation (CR20G). Hundreds people are working day and night. Workers say, “We are working 48 hours in a sunny day, and 24 hours in rainy day.” As of September 30, 188 meters has been dug, and of 128 meters has formed tunnel.


----------



## Knuddel Knutsch

yup, thats it, the Tangshan CNR Maglev train, which they presented to the public in April.

Thats the one that test-runs on the SMTDC track in Shanghai/pudong .

Its really surprising that it takes so long until we actually get pics of the train on the track (dont confuse it with the german transrapid, which has different front lights and a different interior )

No trainspotters around who already had it in Front of their Lense ?


----------



## hmmwv

Railfan said:


> Why don´t apply cavitation effect to the hyper-speed train?


Because air is less dense than water, so the effect will not be significant at all.


----------



## Railfan

hmmwv said:


> Because air is less dense than water, so the effect will not be significant at all.


Travelling at high speed the air behaves like a fluid providing great strength and that's what makes it economically unfeasible trains traveling at 500km/h or 750km/h as a plane.

An active vacuum system on the train journey within a bubble may reduce friction at the point of dispensing with a vacuum tunnel that is much more expensive, that's my humble idea.


----------



## Luli Pop

it's completly feasible and it's been done:

In April 2007, the TGV broke its own 1990 record with a *speed of 574.8 km/h* (357.18 mph) under test conditions with a shortened train (two power cars and three passenger cars) and larger wheels to reduce angular speed in the motors

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_s...cles#Unmodified_commercial_trains_in_test_run

the same TGV that did 574km/h with larger wheels, only reached 380km/h with conventional wheels

world record with conventional wheels: 416.6 km/h	CRH380A	Electric	China	2010-09-28 11:40	On Shanghai–Hangzhou High-Speed Railway

if we do cross-multiplication (I know it's not accurate at all for this but I do it for having an idea), a short CRH380A with large wheels could reach 628km/h

if TGV already did 574km/h then aerodinamics is not a huge problem. IT'S DONE!


----------



## SamuraiBlue

Luli Pop said:


> it's completly feasible and it's been done:
> 
> In April 2007, the TGV broke its own 1990 record with a *speed of 574.8 km/h* (357.18 mph) under test conditions with a shortened train (two power cars and three passenger cars) and larger wheels to reduce angular speed in the motors
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_s...cles#Unmodified_commercial_trains_in_test_run
> 
> the same TGV that did 574km/h with larger wheels, only reached 380km/h with conventional wheels
> 
> world record with conventional wheels: 416.6 km/h	CRH380A	Electric	China	2010-09-28 11:40	On Shanghai–Hangzhou High-Speed Railway
> 
> if we do cross-multiplication (I know it's not accurate at all for this but I do it for having an idea), a short CRH380A with large wheels could reach 628km/h
> 
> if TGV already did 574km/h then aerodinamics is not a huge problem. IT'S DONE!


It's a bit more complicated since CHR380A is an EMU meaning complete synchronization of all the motors in extreme condition must be achieved.
Also the smaller motors situated in the boogies needs to withstand the higher amount of electrical power without overheating. The transfer also needs to be in complete synch with each other.
Not saying it can't be done just that with the difference in configuration the hurdle is much higher.

As for commercial utilization forget it.
It's much more economically sensible to utilize maglevs if you consider the amount of energy necessary to power conventional HSR compared to maglevs at those speeds.


----------



## zergcerebrates

The Wuhan train station is just awesome, love the curvy roof.


----------



## Railfan

My idea to improve the aerodynamics of a train of steel wheels with a no-conventional active vacuum is it economically efficient from any point of view.

Hopefully the train in question to develop and test a platform for future technologies


----------



## HunanChina

I think that Shanghai Hongqiao Railway Station is too big and unfriendly, ugly.

I like Suzhou's. Look at here...


----------



## makita09

Luli Pop said:


> it's completly feasible and it's been done:
> 
> In April 2007, the TGV broke its own 1990 record with a *speed of 574.8 km/h* (357.18 mph) under test conditions with a shortened train (two power cars and three passenger cars) and larger wheels to reduce angular speed in the motors
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_s...cles#Unmodified_commercial_trains_in_test_run
> 
> the same TGV that did 574km/h with larger wheels, only reached 380km/h with conventional wheels
> 
> world record with conventional wheels: 416.6 km/h	CRH380A	Electric	China	2010-09-28 11:40	On Shanghai–Hangzhou High-Speed Railway
> 
> if we do cross-multiplication (I know it's not accurate at all for this but I do it for having an idea), a short CRH380A with large wheels could reach 628km/h
> 
> if TGV already did 574km/h then aerodinamics is not a huge problem. IT'S DONE!


This doesn't make sense. The laws of physics require power to go fast, its not dictated by the size of the wheels. The TGV record attempt had much more power - not only were the locomotives providing power but the cars also had motors in the axles to test the traction package for the AGV (it wasn't just a pointless media exercise) and the OHLE was increased in power.

As you say the wheels were made larger to avoid over-speeding the motors, but if they hadn't given the train more power it wouldn't have gone faster to need larger wheels.


----------



## foxmulder

makita09 said:


> This doesn't make sense. The laws of physics require power to go fast, its not dictated by the size of the wheels. The TGV record attempt had much more power - not only were the locomotives providing power but the cars also had motors in the axles to test the traction package for the AGV (it wasn't just a pointless media exercise) and the OHLE was increased in power.
> 
> As you say the wheels were made larger to avoid over-speeding the motors, but if they hadn't given the train more power it wouldn't have gone faster to need larger wheels.


Of course you need more power to go faster but what Luli Pop said makes sense. French used larger wheels to decrease the stress on engines otherwise they wouldn't have done it, right? To his defense, he is not saying large wheels is the only thing to go faster..


----------



## Suissetralia

foxmulder said:


> Of course you need more power to go faster but what Luli Pop said makes sense. French used larger wheels to decrease the stress on engines otherwise they wouldn't have done it, right? To his defense, he is not saying large wheels is the only thing to go faster..


So what's the bad side of using larger wheels? There must be a reason for not using them more often then, I don't know, just asking


----------



## K_

Suissetralia said:


> So what's the bad side of using larger wheels? There must be a reason for not using them more often then, I don't know, just asking


Larger wheels mean a higher top speed, but lower tractive effort. Just look at steam engines. Those for passenger trains had large wheels, those for freight trains smaller wheels. 
In the case of the French record train they could get away with enlarging the wheels as the total weight of the train was reduced (by shortening it). On a real full length TGV having larger wheels would reduce acceleration to much , which is not really desired.


----------



## foxmulder

Suissetralia said:


> So what's the bad side of using larger wheels? There must be a reason for not using them more often then, I don't know, just asking


You will need more torque to spin larger wheels. Generally higher torques generated by "slow" engines like trucks vs sports cars. Some sport cars have more hp than 18 wheelers but have much less torque. However, to be honest I don't know how this translates for electrical engines used by high speed trains. I suspect smt similar going on. You cannot carry heavy loads with larger wheels. Also, I think acceleration would have been slower with larger wheels. So for record breaking larger wheels is probably better; for everyday use smaller ones


----------



## pcrail

makita09 said:


> The laws of physics require power to go fast, its not dictated by the size of the wheels. The TGV record attempt had much more power


Yes, there was definitely power involved: 27'000 hp for just 5 cars. This makes more than 5'000 hp per car!


----------



## Suissetralia

K_ said:


> Larger wheels mean a higher top speed, but lower tractive effort. Just look at steam engines. Those for passenger trains had large wheels, those for freight trains smaller wheels.
> In the case of the French record train they could get away with enlarging the wheels as the total weight of the train was reduced (by shortening it). On a real full length TGV having larger wheels would reduce acceleration to much , which is not really desired.





foxmulder said:


> You will need more torque to spin larger wheels. Generally higher torques generated by "slow" engines like trucks vs sports cars. Some sport cars have more hp than 18 wheelers but have much less torque. However, to be honest I don't know how this translates for electrical engines used by high speed trains. I suspect smt similar going on. You cannot carry heavy loads with larger wheels. Also, I think acceleration would have been slower with larger wheels. So for record breaking larger wheels is probably better; for everyday use smaller ones


thanks you both :cheers: crystal clear answers hehe


----------



## HyperMiler

Luli Pop said:


> if TGV already did 574km/h then aerodinamics is not a huge problem. IT'S DONE!


And the track had to be repaired after two test runs. 

350 km/hr is considered to be the limit of safe HSR service speed. Every km/hr above 350 km/hr is a struggle.


----------



## yaohua2000

*Bridge-erecting work began on Hami Grand Bridge*

Original text and video: http://www.xj.xinhuanet.com/2010-11/10/content_21359805.htm

Bridge-erecting work on Hami Grand Bridge, the longest viaduct of the Xinjiang section of the Lanxin Line, began on November 8. The viaduct is 19.3 kilometers long, 13.6 meters wide, consists 593 spans with the maximum span length is 100 meters. The work is set to complete in October 2011.

The designed life expectancy of the bridge is 100 years. The total investment is 670 million yuan (101 million USD). The bridge will cross Tianshan Town, Taojiagong Town, Nongshisanshihongxingyichang, and urban Hami city. It will ensure high-speed trains running safely in urban areas, and decrease the use of arable land by 23,000+ mu (15+ km^2).

The Xinjiang section of the line is 713.4 km, of which, the Hami section is more than half, total length is 356.33 km. The Hami section is being built in 4 bid sections, total investment 29.704 billion yuan. The bridge-erecting work indicates the construction of the railway has switched from subgrade rock work phase to rail track structure phase.


----------



## greenlion

http://news.xinhuanet.com/politics/2010-11/25/c_12815246.htm
http://www.xinhui.gov.cn/export/xinhui/news/zwxx2010/nw20101105171429.html

China starts development of CRH6 regional high speed train.

CSR is planning to open its' new factory at Jiangmen city, Guangdong province, the CSR Guangdong factory will manufacturer a new generation Chinese high speed train, CRH6, this time it's not for higher speed, the CRH6 is developed for service at 200km/h and 250km/h regional Intercity High Speed rail, the top speed of CRH6 is 220 km/h, designed by CSR, the first trainset planned to rolled off by next year, the CRH6 will service Guangzhou-Dongguan-Shenzhen ICL, Dongguan-Huizhou ICL, Chengdu regional ICL, Zhongyuan ICL (Zhengzhou,Luoyang and other citiesin Henan Province), Changsha-Zhuzhou-Xiangtan ICL and Wuhan regional ICL.


----------



## riles28

What is the design concept of this train?


----------



## NCT

Very encouraging - hopefully the new train will have an original exterior design and be a true alternative to imported models.


----------



## Stainless

Huhu said:


> It was probably the choice of the engineers who laid the first track signals in China (likely the British); and it just stuck. The same situation applies to other countries like France and Italy which are also right-side roads but left-side rail.


This is odd, where I am in Korea old lines run on the left and newer ones on the right. Most of the metro runs on the right, but some lines are also main lines so they go on the left. The KTX goes on the left as parts run on old lines:nuts:. This is a hangover from Japanese colonial times.


----------



## mopc

Why the file is in traditional characters, is it from Taiwan?


----------



## Fugit

Is it possible to downland this program?


----------



## The Chemist

mopc said:


> Why the file is in traditional characters, is it from Taiwan?


Probably Hong Kong.


----------



## Huhu

Stainless said:


> This is odd, where I am in Korea old lines run on the left and newer ones on the right. Most of the metro runs on the right, but some lines are also main lines so they go on the left. The KTX goes on the left as parts run on old lines:nuts:. This is a hangover from Japanese colonial times.


Seems to make sense, the first rail lines were probably laid by the Japanese, which is left-side for both rail and road. Metro lines are generally disconnected from rail lines so they can be right-side.


----------



## rtf0

*It is because of Coriolis acceleration*

in the northern hemisphere, the train runs in the left rail. In the southern hemisphere, it runs in the right rail.


----------



## makita09

^^

ROFL!!!!!!!!! Hahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!

The USA and the UK are both in the northern hemisphere, but use different sides.


----------



## greenlion

CCTV Documentary

Beijing - Shanghai High Speed Rail: Spped and Safety

http://bugu.cntv.cn/news/china/xinwendiaocha/classpage/video/20101211/100682.shtml


----------



## aab7772003

greenlion said:


> CCTV Documentary
> 
> Beijing - Shanghai High Speed Rail: Spped and Safety
> 
> http://bugu.cntv.cn/news/china/xinwendiaocha/classpage/video/20101211/100682.shtml


Which station is that at 7:21?


----------



## yaohua2000

*The Hami section of Lanxin Line has achieved investment of CN¥5 billion*

http://bt.xinhuanet.com/2010-12/12/content_21609982.htm



> 新华网乌鲁木齐１２月１２日电　眼下虽然天气寒冷，但在兰新铁路第二双线哈密段的建设现场却是一片热火朝天的景象，目前这一路段已经完成年初计划的166.7％。
> 
> 在中铁一局兰新高铁项目部三工区施工现场记者看到，哈密立交特大桥的桥墩被套上了彩钢板保温房，混凝土灌装车也穿上了棉衣，三工区党支部书记杨罡说：“进入冬季以后为了保证施工质量，项目部采取了大量的保温措施，投入了大量的资金采购了大量的棉被彩板房，大概到12月底能够完成兰新公司和指挥部的100个墩身的要求。”
> 
> 兰新铁路第二双线哈密立交特大桥全长19.3公里，建成后可以保障高速铁路在城区安全高速运行，减少占用耕地2万3000多亩，截止至目前已经完成墩身施工80个。同时哈密立交特大桥架梁工作也在有序推进。项目部五工区项目部总工程师陈锐说： “截止到12月9号累计架箱梁40孔量。里程大概是1.3公里长。今年冬季我们计划是要架到80孔。”
> 
> 兰新铁路第二双线是我国一次性开工里程最长的铁路客运专线，设计最高时速为350公里，预计五年内建成。建成后，现有的兰新铁路复线将以货运为主，输送能力将达到每年4.24亿吨以上。（完）（实习编辑：崔宸熙）


----------



## SlipperySteve

Hi guys I've been looking at the Chinese rail network a bit here and over at ourail.com and I'm wondering... how is capacity defined? Does capacity take into account rolling stock? Does it take into account the types of train and weights? Is their international consensus as to how you calculate capacity?

The more I think about it the more complicated it seems, I'd really appreciate any insight you could provide.

Thanks


----------



## yaohua2000

SlipperySteve said:


> Hi guys I've been looking at the Chinese rail network a bit here and over at ourail.com and I'm wondering... how is capacity defined? Does capacity take into account rolling stock? Does it take into account the types of train and weights? Is their international consensus as to how you calculate capacity?
> 
> The more I think about it the more complicated it seems, I'd really appreciate any insight you could provide.
> 
> Thanks


It is the total seat count plus reserved area for wheelchairs (only one or two per trainset)


----------



## SlipperySteve

What about for freight? Some of it is referred to as tonnes.


----------



## greenlion

*CRH6*

1. CRH6 Series includes two type of trainsets, 200km/h and 160km/h types, CRH6(200km/h), designed top speed 250 km/h, top operating speed 220 km/h, CRH6(160km/h), designed top speed 180 km/h, operating speed 160 km/h.
2. 8 cars per train,Capacity 586, Length 199.5m, Width 3300mm, Hight 3900mm
3. A total of 22 CRH6(160) and 10 CRH6(200) ordered by December 29, 2009, contract worth 2346 million RMB


----------



## UD2

^^

very interested at what their plans are for the 160km/h version. are they looking to replace their currently fleet of loco pulled trains? probably not completely but maybe the express ones?


----------



## LHCHL

So the ICLs will use ballastless track? Or will they be sharing tracks with PDLs? 160-200 kph don't really require ballastless track, seems overkill unless there are plans to speed it up in the future? Pic1 and 3 seems to conflict on this matter.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

greenlion said:


> *CRH6*
> 
> 1. CRH6 Series includes two type of trainsets, 200km/h and 160km/h types, CRH6(200km/h), designed top speed 250 km/h, top operating speed 220 km/h, CRH6(160km/h), designed top speed 180 km/h, operating speed 160 km/h.
> 2. 8 cars per train,Capacity 586, Length 199.5m, Width 3300mm, Hight 3900mm


What is the breakdown of cars and seats by class? The images only show 4 abreast seating, but 330 cm wide cars commonly have 5 abreast.

Shall CRH6 include a restaurant car?


----------



## greenlion

seats fomation is 2 2 for 220 km/h trains, for 160 km/h trains,formation is just like metro train. the crh6 is designed for short distance inter-city service, ie guangzhou - zhuhai, zhengzhou - luoyang, etc, so basically, no need for dining car.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

greenlion said:


> seats fomation is 2 2 for 220 km/h trains, for 160 km/h trains,formation is just like metro train. the crh6 is designed for short distance inter-city service, ie guangzhou - zhuhai, zhengzhou - luoyang, etc, so basically, no need for dining car.


CRH1A that now runs Guangzhou-Shenzhen does have dining car and separate first and second class.


----------



## damiantenzijthoff

That is Bejing south station


----------



## greenlion

Hainan East Ring ICL, from Haikou East to Sanya, and the Changji ICL, From Changchun to Jilin, both set to open by December 30, 2010, Total length of the Hainan ER ICL is 308.11 km, designed speed 250km/h, total length of the Changji ICL is 112.449 km, designed speed 250km/h.

Hainan ER ICL starts commercial service tomorrow, while the Changji ICL starts trail service


----------



## chornedsnorkack

k.k.jetcar said:


> Fiscal 1964 (line opened in Oct. 1964 ie first 5 months of ops): 11 million


It opened on 1st of October. When did fiscal year end?


----------



## HunanChina

Hainan East Ring open, at the same time, Hainan West Ring start to construction today.

Hainan West Ring total:344km 200km/h and upgradable to 250km/h.


----------



## Geography

Thanks for the updates. Will the East and West Ring Lines be connected into a contiguous loop?


----------



## HunanChina

Geography said:


> Thanks for the updates. Will the East and West Ring Lines be connected into a contiguous loop?


Yes.

Look at the picture below. This is the OLD Hainan West Ring(120km/h Maxspeed:160km/h), that connect with the East Ring which opened today. 

The NEW Hainan West Ring will be 250km/h, I think. Official statement it's "200km/h and upgradeable to 250km/h"


----------



## spkg

Dose anyone have any info on the developments of the Qiongzhou Strait Bridge connecting Mainland China with Hainan Island? I couldn't find any recent information.


----------



## HunanChina

spkg said:


> Dose anyone have any info on the developments of the Qiongzhou Strait Bridge connecting Mainland China with Hainan Island? I couldn't find any recent information.


Maybe, It's will be begin to construction at 2018. I have no idea.


----------



## HunanChina

Changchun-Jilin ICL 108km, 250km/h.








































CRH5



















　　

　　

The Jilin(吉林)-Hunchun(珲春) ICL(359km, 250km/h) has begun to construction yet.


----------



## HunanChina

*Changchun-Jilin ICL*


----------



## HunanChina

spkg said:


> Dose anyone have any info on the developments of the Qiongzhou Strait Bridge connecting Mainland China with Hainan Island? I couldn't find any recent information.



I got some pictures about Qiongzhou Strait Bridge, If you can read some Chinese...


----------



## HunanChina

Hainan East Ring ICL first day.


----------



## HunanChina

Hainan East Ring ICL first day.


----------



## HunanChina

Hainan East Ring ICL first day


----------



## khoojyh

Awesome !!!


----------



## fragel

With so many lines opening and so many new lines starting construction at this moment, the minister of railways must be busy traveling around the country


----------



## fragel

HunanChina said:


> Hainan East Ring ICL first day


The camera time setting is messed up. luckily we have this photo showing the correct time.


----------



## HunanChina

汪洋等领导共同听取关于琼州海峡跨海工程前期工作情况的汇报。(2010-12-31 09:47:11)

The photo news is from The Ministry of Railway of The People's Republic of China.
http://www.china-mor.gov.cn


----------



## Geography

Thanks for posting the pictures. Some questions...

Are drinks complementary on CRH like they are on most airlines? If not, how expensive are the drinks compared to normal prices?

Is first class the areas with seats facing each other over a table, and second class all seats facing forward?

Does the 80 minute Haikou--Sanya time include all the intermediate stops, or is it direct? How long is the trip with all the stops vs. direct?

How long does it take to travel by car from Haikou to Sanya?


----------



## Sopomon

HunanChina said:


> Changchun-Jilin ICL 108km, 250km/h.
> 
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> CRH5
> 
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> 
> The Jilin(吉林)-Hunchun(珲春) ICL(359km, 250km/h) has begun to construction yet.


In the last picture, why is there some Korean above the Chinese signage?


----------



## Nozumi 300

Sopomon said:


> In the last picture, why is there some Korean above the Chinese signage?


That's because Jilin includes Yanbian Korean Autonomous Prefecture.


----------



## daddylonglegs

Awesome pictures. Looks so neat, clean and orderly. 

Can't imagine what China will have in place in another decade


----------



## binhai

Geography said:


> Thanks for posting the pictures. Some questions...
> 
> Are drinks complementary on CRH like they are on most airlines? If not, how expensive are the drinks compared to normal prices?
> 
> Is first class the areas with seats facing each other over a table, and second class all seats facing forward?
> 
> Does the 80 minute Haikou--Sanya time include all the intermediate stops, or is it direct? How long is the trip with all the stops vs. direct?
> 
> How long does it take to travel by car from Haikou to Sanya?


bottled water is free


----------



## HunanChina

Geography said:


> Thanks for posting the pictures. Some questions...
> 
> Are drinks complementary on CRH like they are on most airlines? If not, how expensive are the drinks compared to normal prices?
> 
> Is first class the areas with seats facing each other over a table, and second class all seats facing forward?
> 
> Does the 80 minute Haikou--Sanya time include all the intermediate stops, or is it direct? How long is the trip with all the stops vs. direct?
> 
> How long does it take to travel by car from Haikou to Sanya?



It is said that meals of Hainan ER ICL is supply by Hainan Airlines. and other drinks' price is above the normal price 30%, average 5 yuan. but you can get a bottled water for free.


----------



## HunanChina

Geography said:


> Thanks for posting the pictures. Some questions...
> 
> Are drinks complementary on CRH like they are on most airlines? If not, how expensive are the drinks compared to normal prices?
> 
> Is first class the areas with seats facing each other over a table, and second class all seats facing forward?
> 
> Does the 80 minute Haikou--Sanya time include all the intermediate stops, or is it direct? How long is the trip with all the stops vs. direct?
> 
> How long does it take to travel by car from Haikou to Sanya?



It is said that meals of Hainan ER ICL is supply by Hainan Airlines. and other drinks' price is above the normal price 30%, average 5 yuan. but you can get a bottled water for free.


That's VIP compartment, seat face each other. The first class and second class are orientation adjustable.

Haikou--->Sanya 82 minutes(no stop), and 90 minutes(intermediate stop). 
A train stop a,c,e,g...station, and B train stop b,d,e,f...staion. that's it.

It will be take you 3 hours from Haikou to Sanya drive by yourself and take 3.5hours by bus. expressway.


----------



## NCT

fragel said:


> With so many lines opening and so many new lines starting construction at this moment, the minister of railways must be busy traveling around the country


Nah he wouldn't dare - there'd be too many passengers angry at the high prices at his throat.


----------



## hmmwv

NCT said:


> Nah he wouldn't dare - there'd be too many passengers angry at the high prices at his throat.


Passengers will be too busy trying to get the few remaining tickets to be angry. 

This is how MOR officials travel to different parts of China (besides using government planes). DF11Z pulling 25T special RZ cars.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

HunanChina said:


> Yes.
> 
> Look at the picture below. This is the OLD Hainan West Ring(120km/h Maxspeed:160km/h), that connect with the East Ring which opened today.


What is the red line northeast of Zhanjiang?


----------



## HunanChina

chornedsnorkack said:


> What is the red line northeast of Zhanjiang?


Maybe, It's an extensional plan of Chu Chiang Delta(珠江三角洲) intercity high-speed rail traffic system.

Guangzhou-Zhuhai ICL will be put into operation this month and be going to extend to Macao.

Look at this..


----------



## Geography

Thanks HunanChina!


----------



## fragel

*Minister of Railways Liu Zhijun: Beijing-Shanghai HSR will open in June 2011*



> *铁道部长刘志军：京沪高铁将于今年6月通车*
> 2011年01月04日 11:39中国新闻网
> 
> 中新网1月4日电(周音)在今天的全国铁路工作会议上，铁道部长刘志军在工作报告中表示，根据国务院京沪办第四次会议的最新精神，京沪高铁将于今年6月通车。


source: http://finance.ifeng.com/roll/20110104/3149657.shtml


----------



## hmmwv

fragel said:


> *Minister of Railways Liu Zhijun: Beijing-Shanghai HSR will open in June 2011*
> 
> 
> source: http://finance.ifeng.com/roll/20110104/3149657.shtml


Holy cow, that's five month earlier than any previous announcements, that must be when the trial run starts, and then regular operation starts in October.


----------



## big-dog

*1.4 China High-speed rail length reaches 8,358 km by the end of 2010*

By the end of year 2010, there are 8,358 km high-speed rails in Chinese railway network. 1200 high-speed trains are on operation every day.

The high-speed rail will form a initial network by the end of 2011, with 13,000 operating kilometers in length.

source


----------



## fragel

hmmwv said:


> Holy cow, that's five month earlier than any previous announcements, that must be when the trial run starts, and then regular operation starts in October.


it seems that they want regular operation to start in mid-June. The other report mentioned the 4th Beijing-Shanghai conference, so MOR should have been given new instructions. maybe the government wants to have the HSR ready before July 1st. I hope they can make it happen.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-01/04/c_13676041.htm



> High-speed rail linking Beijing, Shanghai to open in June
> English.news.cn 2011-01-04 13:55:19
> 
> BEIJING, Jan. 4 (Xinhua) -- *The Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway will be put into operation by the middle of June this year, Chinese Railways Minister Liu Zhijun said at a conference Tuesday.*
> 
> The high-speed link connecting the country's two most important cities will open ahead of its original schedule, previously set in 2012.
> 
> The construction of the 1,318-km railway was started in April 2008 with total investment estimated at 220.9 billion yuan (around 32.5 billion U.S. dollars).
> 
> The railway is expected to cut travel time between Beijing, China's capital in the north, and Shanghai, the country's economic center in the east, to less than five hours, compared with the current 10-hour rail journey.
> 
> On Dec. 3, 2010, a China-made CRH380A train set a new speed record of 486.1 km per hour on a test run on the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway.
> 
> Also at the conference, Liu said the combined length of China's operating high-speed railways had reached 8,358 km by the end of 2010.
> 
> Total length of high-speed railways would reach 13,000 km by 2011, and 16,000 km by 2015, Liu said.
> 
> China plans to invest 700 billion yuan for the construction of railways this year, Liu said.
> 
> He said the total length of China's railways had reached 91,000 km by 2010, and the railways would reach 120,000 km in five years.
> 
> In 2010, 1.68 billion passenger journeys were conducted through the nation's railways, up 9.9 percent year on year. The railways had also transported 3.63 billion tonnes of goods, up 9.3 percent.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> This is how MOR officials travel to different parts of China (besides using government planes). DF11Z pulling 25T special RZ cars.


The image shows no image.

There has been a lot of talk about general passenger high speed trains. But has China made any high speed trainsets exclusively for VIP use?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> The image shows no image.
> 
> There has been a lot of talk about general passenger high speed trains. But has China made any high speed trainsets exclusively for VIP use?


Yeah Netease doesn't allow hotlinking. Anyway AFAIK MOR VIP Section (铁道部专运处）doesn't operate any CRH trainsets, only diesel electric locomotive pulled 25T (some are rumored to be armored) trains.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Jilin HSR*

Does Jilin-Changchun high speed railway carry only local trains, or do any direct trains continue beyond, for Jilin-Shenyang or Jilin-Beijing service?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Does Jilin-Changchun high speed railway carry only local trains, or do any direct trains continue beyond, for Jilin-Shenyang or Jilin-Beijing service?


There are no CRH trains from Jilin to Shenyang or Beijing.


----------



## greenlion

chornedsnorkack said:


> Does Jilin-Changchun high speed railway carry only local trains, or do any direct trains continue beyond, for Jilin-Shenyang or Jilin-Beijing service?


Starts from January 11,

CRH service at Changji ICL, combine of both direction
between Changchun and Jilin 32 trains per day 
between Jilin and Harbin 4 trains per day 
between Jilin and Beijing 2 train per day


----------



## hkskyline

Published on ShanghaiDaily.com (http://www.shanghaidaily.com/)
http://www.shanghaidaily.com/sp/article/2011/201101/20110105/article_460727.htm

*Bullet train to Beijing to take less than 4 hours*
Created: 2011-1-5 1:40:01, Updated: 2011-1-5 1:55:56

A HIGH-SPEED rail link between Shanghai and Beijing will open in mid-June with bullet trains traveling at an average speed of 350 kilometers per hour, the Ministry of Railways said yesterday.

The journey will take less than five hours. Currently, a rail trip between the two cities can take from 10 to 18 hours.

The new high-speed line will link Shanghai's Hongqiao Railway Station and Beijing's South Railway Station.

No ticket prices have been announced but analysts say a reasonable price would put the trains in direct competition with the air service between the two cities. Flights cost around 1,200 yuan with a journey time of about 90 minutes.

Construction of the 1,318-kilometer line is said to have cost 220.9 billion yuan (US$33.4 billion) - the most to have been spent on a single national infrastructure project in China, railway authorities said.

The new line is not only expected to be a boost for passengers traveling between Shanghai and the capital but, more importantly, to strengthen transport capacity in the northern, eastern and middle regions of the country, railway experts said.

The Shanghai-Beijing High-speed Railway will run through Tianjin Municipality and Hebei, Shandong, Anhui and Jiangsu provinces.

A rail trip from Jinan, capital of Shandong Province, to Beijing will be shortened to 1.5 hours compared to between 3 hours 15 minutes and 7 hours at present while the trip to Shanghai will be 3 hours 30 minutes compared to the current 8 to 15 hours.

Bengbu Station in Anhui Province and Xuzhou Station in Jiangsu Province, both major railway traffic hubs and regional exchange centers, will also be among the 24 stops on the new Shanghai-Beijing line.

According to industry analysts, the rail lines between Shanghai and Beijing constitute just 2 percent of the national network in terms of length but handle 10.2 percent of the country's passenger turnover and 7.2 percent of its cargo.

During the early stages of the new service, speeds will be restricted to 300kph, making the journey about 4 hours and 37 minutes, railway authorities said.

Eventually, however, speeds of up to 380kph will be achieved, making the journey just under four hours.

The service will use 16-carriage trains with each train carrying 1,004 passengers. Each train will have a VIP carriage with sleeper chairs that can be laid flat and which feature LCD TV screens.

By the end of last year, China had 8,358 kilometers of high-speed railways in service with 1,200 bullet trains in operation.

Railways Minister Liu Zhijun said the country plans to open another 5,000 kilometers of high-speed lines this year.

He said China would invest another 700 billion yuan in railway construction in 2011 with 70 new projects starting this year, including building 15 new regional high-speed railways and inter-city direct train services. Among the projects is a direct link between Shanghai and Nantong City in Jiangsu Province.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

HunanChina said:


> Guangzhou-Zhuhai ICL will be put into operation this month and be going to extend to Macao.
> 
> Look at this..


What shall the trip time Guangzhou-Zhuhai be on Friday?


----------



## ChinaHighspeedRail

*[Discovery Channel] ShangHai HongQiao Transport Hub*

http://www.fileserve.com/file/QkEq6ZB

Enjoy


----------



## fragel

NCT said:


> Nah he wouldn't dare - there'd be too many passengers angry at the high prices at his throat.


Well it is not whether he dare or not, he did travel a lot. Take a look at the inauguration of operation/construction ceremonies he attended between Dec 22nd and Dec 30th.

Dec 22nd, Chongqing. Attended inauguration of operation/construction ceremony of 7 railway projects, including Yichang-Wanzhou Railway.
http://finance.ifeng.com/news/20101223/3103247.shtml

Dec 23rd, Bijie, Guizhou Province. Attended inauguration of construction ceremony of 7 railway projects.
http://roll.sohu.com/20101224/n301399918.shtml

Dec 24th, Xi'An, Shaanxi Province. Attended inauguration of construction ceremony of 5 railway projects.
http://news.cnwest.com/content/2010-12/24/content_3932658.htm

Dec 25th, Pingtan, Fujian Province. Attended inauguration of construction ceremony of 5 railway projects.
http://news.sohu.com/20101227/n278531521.shtml

Dec 26th, 8:26 am Yibin, Sichuan Province. Gave a speech at the inauguration of construction ceremony of Chengdu-Guiyang Railway.
http://news.hexun.com/2010-12-27/126428515.html

Dec 26th, 12:20 pm Lianyungang, Jiangsu Province. Gave a speech at the inauguration of construction ceremony of Lianyungang-Yancheng Railway.
http://news.hexun.com/2010-12-27/126428508.html

Dec 30th, Haikou, Hainan Province. Hainan east ring ICL inauguration ceremony. Hainan west ring ICL inauguration of construction ceremony
http://news.sohu.com/20101230/n278595502.shtml
​
Notice on Dec 26th, he attended two ceremonies in 4 hours, and Lianyungang is 2000 km away from Yibin. 
He also attended the Qiongzhou Cross-strait project conference on Dec 29th.


----------



## fragel

What version is it? Last time I waited for hours loading an English titled version, and it turned out to be in Russian....

BTW, this thread should be merged to Chinese HSR thread.


----------



## hkhui

It is the English version. Maglev to Hongqiao please! They have made ready maglev train stations in the airport already, just waiting for the trains and tracks to come..


----------



## binhai

Any other programs in this series? This episode was great!


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*CHINA | Beijing-Shanghai High Speed Railway*

Chinese HSR rail system has attracted some discussion, the general thread on high speed railways is 43 pages and there already is a separate thread for high speed trainsets which also is 32 pages. Since Beijing-Shanghai high speed line is so important, I inquired if it could merit a separate thread and heard no objections.

On topic. It was proposed quite some time ago that the line could be opened in June. Then it was widely doubted, and the opening was said to be in September before 1st of October. But now the opening in mid-June is officially confirmed.

The line, 1305 km, is planned for 380 km/h movement. But initially after opening, the speed would be restricted and the trip time would be 4:37.


----------



## gramercy

i hate to be nitpicking, but must we start a new thread for every single project in china?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

gramercy said:


> i hate to be nitpicking, but must we start a new thread for every single project in china?


No. But my point is, we tried to get all in one thread, and all of them are too big. There are already separate threads for high speed rail generally and high speed trainsets, both too big - next thing that seemed plausible to do was try a separate thread for probably the most important single project.


----------



## dumbfword

Single project for China. So every high speed line that is an important project for a country should get it's own thread.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Most countries do not attract such a mass of news to justify separating high speed rail from other rail, let alone dividing it into smaller fields. China does, and it is difficult to find sensible fields to divide the news into. Making a separate thread for the single project that looks likely to have most volume makes sense because in case of China, other threads are already too busy.


----------



## hkhui

BarbaricManchurian said:


> Any other programs in this series? This episode was great!


Haven't you watched "World's fastest railway line - Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway line" and "World's highest railway line - Qinghai-Lhasa railway line"??:bash:

I guess HK Chek Lap Kok was also one episode, at least in a similar document. Bird's nest as well.


----------



## Restless

I'd say a $33billion project is justified having it's own thread


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Stations*

Now to topic.
How many stations shall the line have between Beijing South and Shanghai Hongqiao?


----------



## foxmulder

I just finished watching it. Great documentary, thanks a lot for sharing. kay:


They didnt talk that much about the railway station and high speed rail tough. Foundation is amazing, I didnt know it was that deep.


----------



## foxmulder

Restless said:


> I'd say a $33billion project is justified having it's own thread


Well, good argument


----------



## gramercy

excellent documentary, though it doesnt really cover the high speed rail part of the station


----------



## gramercy

Restless said:


> I'd say a $33billion project is justified having it's own thread


except its almost complete
oh well




chornedsnorkack said:


> Now to topic.
> How many stations shall the line have between Beijing South and Shanghai Hongqiao?


google is your friend: 19 between, 21 counting


----------



## chornedsnorkack

From 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing–Shanghai_High-Speed_Railway
I find 2 contradicting lists, one with 19 between and one with 20 between. 
The difference being that the list with 20 stations includes Tengzhou East.


----------



## fragel

^^ Check the Chinese version of wiki note instead. English version is outdated and inaccurate.
There are 24 stations on Beijing-Shanghai HSR. The other three stations are Shandong Tengzhou East, Anhui Dingyuan Qinggang and Jiangsu Danyang North.


----------



## binhai

hkhui said:


> Haven't you watched "World's fastest railway line - Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway line" and "World's highest railway line - Qinghai-Lhasa railway line"??:bash:
> 
> I guess HK Chek Lap Kok was also one episode, at least in a similar document. Bird's nest as well.


yes i have, i was just wondering if someone had a full list of episodes including download link


----------



## Qtya

Hey Guys! I would like to ask a quick question. Probably the answer is quite obvious for the forumers here, but sadly I only visit this thread rarely. 

Is the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway line open for the puplic yet? I've seen couple of videos, but wiki says, for commercial use it will only be opened in June. 

I'll be arriving to Beijing on the 13th of June. Is the new line going to be opened by that time? And what's the easiest and cheapest way to purchase a tickett till Shanghai?

If it's too off topic, I'd be very happy to get infos in PM as well.


----------



## dumbfword

Suppose to open in June 2011


----------



## binhai

Qtya said:


> Hey Guys! I would like to ask a quick question. Probably the answer is quite obvious for the forumers here, but sadly I only visit this thread rarely.
> 
> Is the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway line open for the puplic yet? I've seen couple of videos, but wiki says, for commercial use it will only be opened in June.
> 
> I'll be arriving to Beijing on the 13th of June. Is the new line going to be opened by that time? And what's the easiest and cheapest way to purchase a tickett till Shanghai?
> 
> If it's too off topic, I'd be very happy to get infos in PM as well.


It's supposed to open around June 15th, and the only way to buy tickets is to go to the train station and buy them (either from the ticket office or electronic machine), no discounts available.


----------



## big-dog

1.11 Chengdu-Beijing, Chengdu-Shanghai sleeper CRH opens

Chengdu-Beijing CRH runs for 15 hours 50 minutes, shortening the travel time by 10 hours.









































































by chinanews.com


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> 1.11 Chengdu-Beijing, Chengdu-Shanghai sleeper CRH opens
> 
> Chengdu-Beijing CRH runs for 15 hours 50 minutes, shortening the travel time by 10 hours.


Which train is it? Is it CRH1E?


----------



## stingstingsting

Hold on.

I checked the road distance on Google Maps and its about 1800km. So assuming that the rail parallels the road and it took 16h, that averages the speed to be just over 110 km/h, which I'm sure is not exactly high speed 

I hence assume that the greater part of the journey are on the normal non-HSR tracks, or did I make a mistake somewhere?

Hmmm...


----------



## Geography

How long are the beds? Western male travelers who tend to be taller might experience some discomfort. Chinese median heights will improve over time as diets improve as well.


----------



## NCT

stingstingsting said:


> Hold on.
> 
> I checked the road distance on Google Maps and its about 1800km. So assuming that the rail parallels the road and it took 16h, that averages the speed to be just over 110 km/h, which I'm sure is not exactly high speed
> 
> I hence assume that the greater part of the journey are on the normal non-HSR tracks, or did I make a mistake somewhere?
> 
> Hmmm...


Most of the journey will be on conventional tracks, hence the D-designation instead of G.


----------



## HunanChina

D318 Chengdu->Beijing D317 Beijing->Chengdu. 

Go, Let's go to Chengdu to looking the J-20. Ha.. Just kidding.


----------



## HunanChina

Geography said:


> How long are the beds? Western male travelers who tend to be taller might experience some discomfort. Chinese median heights will improve over time as diets improve as well.


Look at this. It's maybe about 1.9-2m, by eyeballing.


----------



## hmmwv

I rode the Shanghai-Beijing sleeper before and I'm 5'10, there is about a foot of clearance.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Sleeper trains*

Are any more 200 km/h sleeper trains (CRH1E and CRH2E) due for delivery?


----------



## hkskyline

*HIGH-SPEED TRAINS RESHAPE NATION'S TRANSPORT LANDSCAPE *
12 January 2011
China Daily

BEIJING - The rapidly expanding high-speed rail network will increase the pressure on the country's roads in the coming holiday travel peak period and has already forced airlines to quit some short-distance routes, officials said on Tuesday.

Some 5,149 km of high-speed track were put into service last year, making the network stretch to 8,358 km, the world's longest, the Ministry of Railways said.

But the opening of more fast train services has led to fewer regular trains being available for budget-conscious passengers in the upcoming Spring Festival holiday period, Ministry of Transport spokesman He Jianzhong said on Tuesday.

The railway ministry has added luxury services to bullet trains on several routes, hoping to provide more diversified service.

For example, a luxury sleeper service was added between Shanghai and Chengdu, capital of Sichuan province, with tickets costing up to 2,330 yuan ($352).

But many travelers cannot afford the tickets, causing a waste of transport capacity.

According to a report in the Shanghai-based Oriental Morning Post on Tuesday, hundreds of soft berths on bullet trains between Chengdu and Shanghai will be vacant, although cheaper tickets have sold out.

He Jianzhong said this year the situation had pushed many passengers, who used to ride home by slow trains because of the cheap tickets, onto long-distance buses.

This extra traffic will add pressure to the road transport system during the travel peak season, He said.

The Ministry of Transport estimated that a record high of 2.6 billion bus passenger trips will be made during the peak time between Jan 19 and Feb 27, an increase of 11.6 percent on the same period last year.

The transport sector plans to increase capacity to handle the extra traffic. A total of 840,000 buses, including 70,000 added this year, will hit the road during the travel peak, making 2.4 million road trips a day, he said.

While giving away some passengers to road transport, the high-speed railways, at the same time, have attracted more affluent travelers from the airlines.

Wang Changshun, deputy head of the Civil Aviation Administration of China, told a conference on Tuesday that the fast trains have forced some airlines to cancel short-distance flights along high-speed rail lines.

For example, the Wuhan-Guangzhou high-speed railway, where every few minutes trains zip between the two cities via Changsha, capital of Central China's Hunan province, has carried 20.6 million passengers in the year since its opening in December 2009.

During that period the number of flights between Changsha and Guangzhou has been cut from an average of 11.5 flights a day to three flights a day, he said.

Hainan and Shenzhen airlines decided to withdraw from the market, leaving only China Southern Airlines carrying the three daily flights, Wang said.

The ticket price for those flights also dropped by 15 percent to attract travelers, but still the number of passengers flying between Changsha and Guangzhou dropped by 48 percent to 390,000 during 2010, he said.

"The opening of the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed line next year will be another blow to the air transport industry," Wang said, without forecasting how serious the impact will be.

Airlines have been urged to cut costs, reduce delays and seek cooperation opportunities with high-speed railways.

Tan Zongyang contributed to this story.


----------



## z0rg

A new record today: 487.3km/h :banana:
http://news.cntv.cn/china/20110113/109260.shtml


----------



## Gadiri

big-dog said:


> 1.11 Chengdu-Beijing, Chengdu-Shanghai sleeper CRH opens
> 
> *Chengdu-Beijing *CRH runs for 15 hours 50 minutes, shortening the travel time by 10 hours.


How long the line is it ?


----------



## fragel

z0rg said:


> A new record today: 487.3km/h :banana:
> http://news.cntv.cn/china/20110113/109260.shtml


it is the same news that greenlion posted in 'China|high speed trainsets' on Jan 10th (the record was set on 9th).

The most important thing here is that this is a *modified* trainset, so the record does not mean much except it is now the speed record for any modified/unmodified conventional trainset in China.

And I am speechless about the unprofessional report zorg quoted:
http://news.cntv.cn/china/20110113/109260.shtml


> 记者从中国北车集团唐山轨道客车有限公司获悉，由*唐车*公司自主创新研制的新一代“和谐号”CRH380BL高速动车组，在京沪高速铁路先导段运行试验中创造了每小时487.3公里的世界铁路运营试验最高速，再次刷新*此前该公司创造的486.1公里的世界纪录。*
> ...
> 据了解，*此前世界铁路运营试验最高速也是由唐车公司创造的*。2010年12月3日，在京沪高铁枣庄至蚌埠间的先导段联调联试和综合试验中，国产“和谐号”CRH380A新一代高速动车组最高运行时速达到486.1公里。


PS: the mistake was fixed in a later version.
http://www.he.xinhuanet.com/news/2011-01/13/content_21858113.htm


----------



## zergcerebrates

NCT said:


> Most of the journey will be on conventional tracks, hence the D-designation instead of G.


I am not familiar with CRH designations so what does D or G represent?


----------



## NCT

zergcerebrates said:


> I am not familiar with CRH designations so what does D or G represent?


D stands for dongche, Chinese for multiple units, and G stands for gaosu, Chinese for high-speed. The designations might seem a bit bezarre as you can have low-speed multiple unites like metros and commuter trains, as well loco-hauled high-speed trains like the French TGV.

Before the advent of CRH Chinese trains were completely loco-hauled. When the 250km/h high-speed train sets came they were the first multiple units, so they called them the D-class for multiple units, and shared tracks with conventional trains. Then high-speed tracks were constructed allowing higher speeds of up to 350km/h, so a new class was required and they chose G for high-speed.


----------



## hmmwv

Generally speaking D trains run at max 250km/h on dedicated and upgraded track, and G trains run at max 350km/h on dedicated track.


----------



## NCT

Generally speaking yes, though 350km/h trains are known to operate D services.


----------



## Simfan34

HunanChina said:


>


Nice hats. What's with the mask though?



hmmwv said:


> I rode the Shanghai-Beijing sleeper before and I'm 5'10, there is about a foot of clearance.


Designed to be long enough for Yao Ming? :lol:


----------



## cbz

Simfan34 said:


> Nice hats. What's with the mask though?
> :


Like doctor wearing mask, they don't want to be recognized if something goes wrong.


----------



## NCT

Lol, probably to prevent spit from going into the food.


----------



## daddylonglegs

Probably for stopping the spread of germs. I noticed at the clinic the other day a lot of people were wearing them.


----------



## zergcerebrates

Simfan34 said:


> Nice hats. What's with the mask though?


Well, its a common practice among restaurants in East Asia(China,Twn,HK,JPN, dunno about SKorea) to wear masks. Depends on the establishment but many restaurant from medium to high end do wear mask for hygiene purposes. Some even require gloves, its cleaner this way, and waiter or waitress require their hair be short or tied up and have short nails. I think this all became a common practice after the SARs incident so its a blessing in disguise. I am a germaphobic lol so I really appreciate people doing these sorta things I get kinda edgy when I see people making sushi with their bare hands who knows what they've touched.


----------



## hmmwv

cbz said:


> Like doctor wearing mask, they don't want to be recognized if something goes wrong.


You sir, just won all the Internets.:master:


----------



## HunanChina

the "MOST beautiful" ICL. :angel: 成灌

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/7jNLJ6w_BYA/


----------



## FazilLanka

China is giving the world best train transporation


----------



## Luli Pop

zergcerebrates said:


> Well, its a common practice among restaurants in East Asia(China,Twn,HK,JPN, dunno about SKorea) to wear masks. Depends on the establishment but many restaurant from medium to high end do wear mask for hygiene purposes. Some even require gloves, its cleaner this way, and waiter or waitress require their hair be short or tied up and have short nails. I think this all became a common practice after the SARs incident so its a blessing in disguise. I am a germaphobic lol so I really appreciate people doing these sorta things I get kinda edgy when I see people making sushi with their bare hands who knows what they've touched.


it´s very common in Argentina also, and it was like that way before SARS.

it´s called higienism!

it´s also very common in US and Europe in classy restaurants.


----------



## Silly_Walks

The restaurant i worked at in The Netherlands, some of the chefs wore masks when they were sick.

This so they would not infect co-workers or the food.

But they were all asian, so it might not be common practice over here.


----------



## clyde the puffy cat

Hi all, been lurking here for a while, finally got around to joining the forum. Have been looking on in astonishment at our Chinese friends building and infrastructure development.
Its funny, my country Australia, has been talking about developing a high speed rail between Melbourne and Sydney for about 30 years, and China, in the space of 6 or 7 years has about 8000 km of HSR, just amazing

@HunanChina, mmm yeah, pretty nice! Just a query though, if you do a stewardess on a plane, it's joining the mile high club, if you do one on a train, maybe it's joining the metre high club:lol:


----------



## hmmwv

HunanChina said:


> the "MOST beautiful" ICL. :angel: 成灌
> 
> http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/7jNLJ6w_BYA/


One of them is the conductor.


----------



## mingrady

..


----------



## clyde the puffy cat

mingrady said:


> Welcome, Clyde! Glad to have you here! :cheers::cheers:
> 
> On the other subject, I doubt "metre high club" will catch up because it doesn't have the same glamor and shine to it as its "mile high" cousin does. since the supposed act happens on a train, naturally we can simply call it "pulling a train" and the person engaged in it can be called a "trainny" :banana::banana:


Hi mingrady, thanks for the welcome:cheers:
Haha, "pulling a trainny", good one! Just got to have a good look first and not end up pulling a tranny:lol:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

clyde the puffy cat said:


> @HunanChina, mmm yeah, pretty nice! Just a query though, if you do a stewardess on a plane, it's joining the mile high club, if you do one on a train, maybe it's joining the metre high club:lol:


If you make a Chinese stewardess a single mother, it counts as her one child, but does it count towards your one child policy?

More seriously, the length of CRH1E deluxe soft sleeper berths has been mentioned - but precisely how wide are they? Can you actually sleep with anybody there?

And can you sleep with a child in a deluxe soft sleeper? I understand that young children, 1 per adult, travel free of charge but without a berth. How big children can travel free on CRH? Is it chronological age limit that applies (I have heard 4 year olds travel free, 5 year olds require a paid berth), or physical size limit (I have seen it quoted as under 120 cm share berth, over 120 cm pay for separate berth) - which of them?

Do you need to do a stewardess to qualify for metre high club, or does travelling with a passenger being your lawful spouse suffice?


----------



## Sopomon

chornedsnorkack said:


> If you make a Chinese stewardess a single mother, it counts as her one child, but does it count towards your one child policy?
> 
> More seriously, the length of CRH1E deluxe soft sleeper berths has been mentioned - but precisely how wide are they? Can you actually sleep with anybody there?
> 
> And can you sleep with a child in a deluxe soft sleeper? I understand that young children, 1 per adult, travel free of charge but without a berth. How big children can travel free on CRH? Is it chronological age limit that applies (I have heard 4 year olds travel free, 5 year olds require a paid berth), or physical size limit (I have seen it quoted as under 120 cm share berth, over 120 cm pay for separate berth) - which of them?
> 
> Do you need to do a stewardess to qualify for metre high club, or does travelling with a passenger being your lawful spouse suffice?


Hahahahaa oh wow, you're now my favourite poster


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*More speculations*

A Chinese family is defined as 3 - parents and 1 child.

There is not a fortnight left of Tiger Year. Do the Chinese get staggered vacations for New Year, so that some would be on holiday for a week before New Year and some for a week afterwards, or do they all travel on the same day?

The trains get full around New Year. And while a family going home to one set of grandparents is 3, a soft sleeper cabin has 4 berths. Which means that a cabin is quite likely to contain a family AND one stranger (the parents have to pay for the 3rd berth because the child is too big to be allowed without a child ticket, but they could not afford money for the 4th berth).

Of course, a deluxe soft sleeper means that the family must split between two cabins.


----------



## clyde the puffy cat

> If you make a Chinese stewardess a single mother, it counts as her one child, but does it count towards your one child policy?


Rubber is a mans best friend.



> More seriously, the length of CRH1E deluxe soft sleeper berths has been mentioned - but precisely how wide are they? Can you actually sleep with anybody there?


Where there's a will , there's a way.



> Do you need to do a stewardess to qualify for metre high club, or does travelling with a passenger being your lawful spouse suffice?


No, a spouse will suffice, but the International Federation of the Metre and Mile High
Club, awards bonus points for stewardesses :lol:


----------



## Scion

Explosion damaged a CRH3's pantograph and melted some overhead wires at Guangzhou South Station, on the Wuhan-Guangzhou HSL.


----------



## stingstingsting

Scion said:


> Explosion damaged a CRH3's pantograph and melted some overhead wires at Guangzhou South Station, on the Wuhan-Guangzhou HSL.


OOoh what happened there? :eek2:


----------



## big-dog

Beijing South Station




























fengniao.com


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Shenzhen junction*

Where is the branching point between the high speed railways Guangzhou-Shenzhen, Shenzhen-Xiamen and Shenzhen-Hong Kong? And which way turns will it accommodate?


----------



## urbanfan89

^^ From maps it looks like it's between Futian and Shenzhen North. That means trains from Hong Kong to the direction of Shanghai will stop at the Shenzhen East station.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

urbanfan89 said:


> ^^ From maps it looks like it's between Futian and Shenzhen North. That means trains from Hong Kong to the direction of Shanghai will stop at the Shenzhen East station.


So which stops would Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Xiamen trains have, this year?


----------



## cmoonflyer

*A interesting pic found ...*


----------



## foxmulder

^^ It would have been fun to watch high speed trains passing in front of your window


----------



## yaohua2000

urbanfan89 said:


> ^^ From maps it looks like it's between Futian and Shenzhen North. That means trains from Hong Kong to the direction of Shanghai will stop at the Shenzhen East station.


Map:

red = guangzhou - shenzhen - hong kong
blue = xiamen - shenzhen


----------



## chornedsnorkack

How is Longhua Station progressing? Is it on schedule to open in May?


----------



## yaohua2000

chornedsnorkack said:


> How is Longhua Station progressing? Is it on schedule to open in May?


I don't think it can be opened in May. The Shiziyang Tunnel has not been completed.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

yaohua2000 said:


> I don't think it can be opened in May. The Shiziyang Tunnel has not been completed.


In which year shall Shiziyang Tunnel be completed?


----------



## yaohua2000

chornedsnorkack said:


> In which year shall Shiziyang Tunnel be completed?


In year 2011, of cause.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

yaohua2000 said:


> In year 2011, of cause.


So, progress reports of Shiziyang tullels are that it shall not be completed by May 2011, but shall be completed by December 2011.

Are there any closer plans on which month Shiziyang tunnel does open?

In which month of 2011 shall Longhua-Xiamen HSR open?


----------



## hkskyline

Source : http://pic.feeyo.com/posts/523/5233613.html


----------



## fragel

yaohua2000 said:


> In year 2011, of cause.


just saw your recent travel log to India on your website, I was truly amazed. think you might wanna share it here?


----------



## General Huo

fragel said:


> just saw your recent travel log to India on your website, I was truly amazed. think you might wanna share it here?


This is really amazing travel 

http://www.yaohua2000.org/2010/20101222/en.html

Thanks, Yaohua2000


----------



## fragel

^^I was not sure if it is appropriate to cross-post yaohua's link here, but we are just trying to promote it, aren't we? lol

anyway I think he probably deserves a separate thread for the trip report. I am sure some forumers in Chinese and Indian subforums would also be interested in discussing it.


----------



## CPHbane

General Huo said:


> This is really amazing travel
> 
> http://www.yaohua2000.org/2010/20101222/en.html
> 
> Thanks, Yaohua2000


yaohua2000 is called 腰花帝 in newsmth.net and his trip report style is called 腰花体 :lol:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

chornedsnorkack said:


> Are there any closer plans on which month Shiziyang tunnel does open?


Found some.
Sometime in June:
http://www1.szdaily.com/content/2011-01/27/content_5303555.htm


----------



## cbz

General Huo said:


> This is really amazing travel
> 
> http://www.yaohua2000.org/2010/20101222/en.html
> 
> Thanks, Yaohua2000


wow :bow::bow::bow:


----------



## hkskyline

*Mainland railway and air transport sectors undergo hi-tech revolution *
11 February 2011
South China Morning Post

On land and in the skies, the mainland is in the grips of an unprecedented transport revolution that has potentially far-reaching economic ramifications.

From Qiqihar in the far northeast to Dali in Yunnan province, from Urumqi in Xinjiang to Shenzhen, the entire nation will soon be interlinked with a vast network of high-speed trains.

In a hangar on the outskirts of Shanghai, engineers are furiously working to build the mainland's newest and in many respects the first domestically designed-and-built large commercial jet, which state leaders hope may one day be able to compete on an even footing with aviation giants such as Boeing and Airbus.

The seemingly unconnected transport projects are two prongs of a strategy central to the 12th five-year plan to 2015.

The development of both high-speed rail and aerospace engineering is crucial to establishing China's image as a technological innovator rather than simply the world's factory, a monstrous assembly line crudely producing goods designed and perfected elsewhere.

The central government is determined to push the mainland economy up the quality ladder, away from the mass manufacturing of low-end products towards high-value, high-technology products that provide a far greater return on investment - and these high-profile projects are integral to shifting the international perception of China's industries in that direction.

Mark Williams, a senior China economist for Capital Economics, said the central government's aims were rooted in the desire to swiftly improve national living standards, but he questioned the feasibility of the ambitious timeframes.

"The central government wants to be in sectors where productivity increases very rapidly, and that tends to be at the high end," Williams said. "The risk is whether China really can compete at that high level."

He warned the strategy seemed to run against the conventional wisdom of emerging markets focusing on their "competitive advantages" of low-cost, low-skill sectors.

"The normal argument is that emerging economies such as China should stick to what they do best, and should steer clear of cutting-edge sectors," Williams said. "Countries like China don't tend to have the technical capacities or a workforce that is able to produce efficiently at that level."

However, he said that China's size meant the country had more flexibility to force through structural changes and to punch above its position on the developmental curve.

"Although they claim the high-speed rail was indigenously developed, in reality, China was able to get its hands on Japanese technology relatively cheaply by offering access to its huge market," Williams said.

However, he added that a major shift by China into high-technology sectors that more developed nations tended to view as their own territory could accentuate the already tense issue of trade imbalances.

"America doesn't make cheap socks," he said. "Once you go head-to-head with the likes of Boeing, then that's another matter entirely.

"If China does go down that route, then I think we will see a lot more instances of protectionism occurring."

The immense drive to expand the high-speed rail network is one of the most ambitious infrastructure projects ever seen and has been compared in scope to the rapid development of a system of interstate highways in the United States in the late 1950s.

The Ministry of Railways aims to have 25,000 kilometres of newly built high-speed track by 2015, according to the ministry's chief planner Zheng Jian . The project is projected to require annual investment of 700 billion yuan (HK$827.75 billion), totalling 3.5 trillion yuan over the course of the five-year plan.

However, the booming high-speed rail industry is not only a game-changer in terms of transport. It is seen as a potential cash cow on the regional and world stage - particularly after a "domestically developed" high-speed train set a new conventional railway speed record of 416.6km per hour during a test of the Shanghai-Hangzhou line.

At the beginning of last year, the Ministry of Railways signed a deal with the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China to help mainland firms fight for rail contracts on the international market, and there are signs the tactic is bearing fruit.

Mainland manufacturers have been making inroads into the regional market - including deals to build railways in Thailand and Malaysia - and have designs on the global stage.

CSR Corp, the world's leading manufacturer of electric locomotives, announced in December last year it was launching a joint venture with US conglomerate General Electric to bid for high-speed rail projects in the US.

That deal followed on from then-California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger heaping praise on China's high-speed rail drive while on a trip to Shanghai in September, during which he expressed interest in using Chinese trains for his state's proposed high-speed network.

Vice-Premier Li Keqiang was also reported to have held discussions with British Prime Minister David Cameron about Chinese involvement in a future high-speed rail project during an official visit to Britain last month.

Progress on turning the mainland into a giant in the aviation sector has yet to net the same returns, but the country's aims are no less ambitious.

The Commercial Aircraft Corp of China (Comac) is on the cusp of introducing its 100-seater ARJ21 regional jet - which has been under development since 2002 - into commercial service, and is working on a larger airliner which has been widely touted as "China's Jumbo".

In contrast to the ARJ21, which uses two specially developed jet engines manufactured by GE, the larger C919 is to be entirely designed and built in China using domestically developed technology, intended as a direct challenge to US and European aircraft manufacturers' dominance of the industry.

Comac's website boasts the aircraft will incorporate cutting-edge technology with "Chinese characteristics".

The plane - still on the drawing board - is scheduled to begin test flights in 2014 with a view to entering commercial service in 2016.

In contrast to the mainland media hype, however, the C919, with up to 168 seats, will be no "Jumbo". The two-engine jet will be considerably smaller than Boeing's flagship 747, which can accommodate up to 624 passengers, and is more likely to compete with the smaller Boeing 737 and Airbus A320 jets widely used on short to medium-haul routes.

However, major obstacles will have to be overcome.

The ARJ21 has been constantly marred by setbacks. The plane was originally scheduled to go into commercial service in 2007, but the first aircraft was not completed until November 2008.

Despite repeated assurances from Comac that the first aircraft would be delivered to Chengdu Airlines by the end of last year, that has now been pushed back until sometime in the second half of this year.

Industry insiders pour cold water on expectations that Comac could pose a serious challenge to the likes of Airbus and Boeing in the immediate future.

A senior engineer with experience supervising mainland factories producing components for a leading international jet-engine manufacturer said lax safety regulations and sloppy quality control were rife in the industry.

He said the Chinese aeronautics industry was using "40-year-old technology" and it was unlikely the country would be able to produce a wholly domestically developed jet engine in the near future.

He said the only way he could envisage it being able to do so would be through industrial espionage - something which was a major concern in the industry.

"We try only to produce components in China for which the technology is already widely known," he said. "There are certain key components where we have developed the technology ourselves and only we know how to do. I have fought hard to make sure we never make those parts in China because people would simply copy them, and I know it is the same case with other manufacturers."

He said his company's biggest problem was the need to fight a constant battle against cutting corners, which he said was endemic.

In one factory, supervisors had been completing documents vouching measurements of components down to thousandths of a millimetre - essential information to gauge the product's worthiness - but he discovered the factory's measuring equipment was only able to accurately measure to tenths of a millimetre.

"I asked them how they managed to file readings to three decimal places and was simply told, 'We guessed'," he said.

"As a mechanical engineer, working in tenths of a millimetre for components of precision engineering is unheard of."

Although the problem was corrected on the particular line where it had been identified, the manufacturer did not think to replicate the change across similar product lines in the same factory until pressed hard.

What's more, the engineer said the mainland manufacturer actively campaigned to discredit him with his employer in an attempt to dissuade him from probing the company's practices and probably uncovering other problems.

"Now that is really dangerous," he said.

Worryingly, similar quality concerns and safety issues have been raised in the high-speed rail construction drive.

Last month, civil engineering researchers said they were concerned the breakneck speed that high-speed rail track was being laid meant that quality was being sacrificed.

Wang Lan, a lead scientist at the Cement and New Building Materials Academy, said the use of low-grade construction materials was "almost inevitable" and was likely to cut the network's lifespan by half.

Williams said that if industry standards were not raised quickly, it could fundamentally undermine the country's efforts to project a high-technology national image.

"It will only take a few crashes on the high-speed rail for the whole strategy to fall apart," he said.


----------



## HunanChina

HD video

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjM4MjA3ODM2.html


http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQzMzIxNjA4.html


http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQ0Mjk3Mzc2.html


http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQwNjIyNjc2.html


http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQ2MTc5OTg4.html


----------



## HunanChina

http://v.ku6.com/show/2RMyirGiKSKLv6xd.html


----------



## foxmulder

Nice videos.. 380A looks like a space ship. tnx for sharing..


----------



## fragel

HunanChina said:


> HD video
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjM4MjA3ODM2.html
> 
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQzMzIxNjA4.html
> 
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQ0Mjk3Mzc2.html
> 
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQwNjIyNjc2.html
> 
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQ2MTc5OTg4.html


some of them(as well as more videos) were put on youtube by someone 

CRH high speed railway experience I 





CRH experience II - cockpit view 





high speed railway spring festival experience





age of high-speed railway I





Inter-city train in the snow 





Yangtze delta high speed railway network


----------



## CarlosBlueDragon

^^

clean rail HD....

:applause::applause::applause:kay:kay:


----------



## PHilly Boy

Dame that looks really nice, I wish we can have it in US. seems that US has lots of catching up to do.


----------



## yaohua2000

*Nursultan Nazarbayev visits Beijing South Railway Station and Beijing–Tianjin Intercity Railway on February 23*


----------



## yaohua2000

*Beam erection started over the Lanzhou–Urumqi HSR line*


----------



## khoojyh

Actually, i have a concern on terrorist atack, how they are going to maintain the security of high speed train? i believe the terrorist will target high speed train.

we dont wish to see same thing happened in London and Mumbai happen in China.


----------



## makita09

China already transports more people by train than anywhere else. Why would they target HSR more than the usual trains which they haven't targeted?


----------



## Slartibartfas

khoojyh said:


> Actually, i have a concern on terrorist atack, how they are going to maintain the security of high speed train? i believe the terrorist will target high speed train.
> 
> we dont wish to see same thing happened in London and Mumbai happen in China.


I don't see how a terrorist attack on a high speed train would be necessarily much more lethal than on a regular train. Terrorists can also attack a skyscraper or a simple residential block. Should they stop building them therefore?

Thats an insane logic. Things like in London can happen. Chances that people using rail die due to attacks are overall extremely small. Apart from that, China seem to have security systems in place, making such a high speed train a harder target than a random subway line.


----------



## khoojyh

Slartibartfas said:


> I don't see how a terrorist attack on a high speed train would be necessarily much more lethal than on a regular train. Terrorists can also attack a skyscraper or a simple residential block. Should they stop building them therefore?
> 
> Thats an insane logic. Things like in London can happen. Chances that people using rail die due to attacks are overall extremely small. Apart from that, China seem to have security systems in place, making such a high speed train a harder target than a random subway line.


I dont see any reason to stop building HSR.

I think terrorist will like your simple idea. please see below for my comment to you.
1)Usual train will not cost more than HSR, what is the cost of to build HSR track and HSR train set? i believe you should know.
2)Do you think passenger rate per hr in HSR will be lesser than usual train?
2)Train Station can be one of the target, how about a simple on high speed rail track? terrorist attack on London, Madrid and Mumbai is not everyday but once a time could make big suffer, dont you think so?
3)For building, i believe you shold know 911 and attack to WTC before 911
4)Lastly, i believe China HSR security has a tight system but USA do have a security tight system too. London and Madrid as well.

THank YOU.


----------



## Slartibartfas

^^ Sorry but what's your point?

If terrorists want to maximize economic damage they will rather sink a big loaded container ship or even better a loaded oil tanker close to some coast line. Their focus usually is however not the real damage but to inflict terror among the civilian population. I don't think the dimension of terror when a HS train is attacked is much different from a regular train.

Lets keep it in perspective. Chances you get hit by a lightning are higher than getting killed by a terrorist attack. At least in the west and I'd suppose also in China.


----------



## Woonsocket54

let's just ignore the troll, OK?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Silly_Walks said:


> Wonder if they'll try to break France's record. They don't have much time if they want it to open in June.


Why? They set China records on that line in December 2010 already. Now they have to put that line in service configuration and test the service trains.

China is supposed to open Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Wuhan railway early in 2012 or late in 2011. How is it progressing? And is it designed for 350 km/h like Wuhan-Guangzhou line, or 380 km/h like Beijing-Shanghai line?


----------



## greenlion

chornedsnorkack said:


> Why? They set China records on that line in December 2010 already. Now they have to put that line in service configuration and test the service trains.
> 
> China is supposed to open Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Wuhan railway early in 2012 or late in 2011. How is it progressing? And is it designed for 350 km/h like Wuhan-Guangzhou line, or 380 km/h like Beijing-Shanghai line?


It is designed for 350 km/h, set to open in 2011. and the current view near Shijiahzuang Station is like these:

the picture is taken fron new line of Jingguang Railway, the lowest bridge is old Jingguang Railway, the bridge on the left is connection line from New Shijiazhuang Stasion to Shitai PDL, the bridge on the right side is Shiwu PDL


















Current view of Shijiazhuang High Speed Train Base









Departure/Arrivel yard of Jingguang Railway (Normal railway)









Platform of Jingguang Railway









































Waiting room


----------



## mingrady

khoojyh said:


> Actually, i have a concern on terrorist atack, how they are going to maintain the security of high speed train? i believe the terrorist will target high speed train.
> 
> we dont wish to see same thing happened in London and Mumbai happen in China.


As long as China has the technology know-how, whatever damaged or destroyed can be rebuilt; in fact, repairing and rebuilding the infrastructures will improve technology and knowledge. as long as the spirit endure, no physical structure is indispensable in the nation's progress.


----------



## greenlion

http://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk...conomic-benefits-in-2011-and-beyond-4665.html

China’s Bullet-Train Network Creates Major Economic Benefits In 2011 And Beyond


----------



## Qtya

hkskyline said:


> *Bullet train testing set to begin on Beijing link *
> 21 February 2011
> Shanghai Daily
> 
> China's high-speed railway development took another stride forward yesterday with the power being switched on in Shanghai and nearby cities to enable test runs on the Shanghai-Beijing high-speed rail link to start.
> 
> The line will be fully tested from March 20 when bullet trains traveling at more than 400 kilometers per hour will make the trip to iron out any problems and make adjustments before the new line opens to the public on *June 20*.
> 
> The trains will run between Shanghai's Hongqiao Railway Station and Beijing's South Railway Station during the tests, the national railway authority said yesterday.
> 
> The 1,318-kilometer link will cut the journey between Shanghai and the capital to less than five hours from the current 10 to 18 hours.
> 
> ...


JUNE 20??!??!?!?!?!?! Why?!!!??!?!?!? Wasn't the line supposed to be opened on the 15th? 

I planned my trip to Beijing that way, I could take thre train to Shanghai on the 16th...


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## khoojyh

Slartibartfas said:


> ^^ Sorry but what's your point?
> 
> If terrorists want to maximize economic damage they will rather sink a big loaded container ship or even better a loaded oil tanker close to some coast line. Their focus usually is however not the real damage but to inflict terror among the civilian population. I don't think the dimension of terror when a HS train is attacked is much different from a regular train.
> 
> Lets keep it in perspective. Chances you get hit by a lightning are higher than getting killed by a terrorist attack. At least in the west and I'd suppose also in China.


my point is simple, i never said HSR is absolute the target of terrorist, i said will be the target.

and you told me that i am insane that why HSR will not be the target with your reason.

then i explained to you with my reason, please see all my points above.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

greenlion said:


> http://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk...conomic-benefits-in-2011-and-beyond-4665.html
> 
> China’s Bullet-Train Network Creates Major Economic Benefits In 2011 And Beyond





Proactiveinvestors United Kingdom said:


> The 105-kilometer Guangzhou-Shenzhen line will open in May, followed by the 1,318-kilometer Shanghai-Beijing line in June.


Is Guangzhou-Shenzhen line on schedule for May opening?


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## hmmwv

One thing is, all important infrastructure targets such as major railway bridges/tunnels are guarded by the People's Armed Police corps. Smaller bridges/viaducts and tunnels are guarded by the local county or township level police or reserve units. And the entire railway system is constantly patrolled by MOR workers. I went on an recent train spotting trip on the Shanghai-Nanjing ICL and the entire line is closed off to the general public, it's protected with barbwire lined fence, motion detector, cameras, and access control gates. Of course this is limited to dedicated HSR lines, the mixed lines are not as well protected, but I'd argue in China, there are far easier targets for the terrorists than HSR.


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## foxmulder

Thanks for awesome update greenlion...  this what I love to see: construction pictures!


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> How many trains daily now travel Shanghai-Nanjing on the Shanghai-Nanjing high speed line with these 2 stops?
> How many are nonstop trains, and how many make all (about 30) stops on the high speed railway?


According to SHRail's online ticketing system, there are currently 65 daily G trains each way on the Shanghai-Nanjing ICL, and 13 D trains each way on the upgraded original line. Out of the 65 G trains there are 12 nonstop trains. The other stops at different stations, normally no more than three stops each. The 13 D trains are all passing by trains, with final destination at Beijing, Shengyang, Qingdao, Zhengzhou, and Wuhan.


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## Slartibartfas

khoojyh said:


> my point is simple, i never said HSR is absolute the target of terrorist, i said will be the target.
> 
> and you told me that i am insane that why HSR will not be the target with your reason.
> 
> then i explained to you with my reason, please see all my points above.


I didn't call you insane but the logic behind the argument. That was not very wisely chosen vocabulary. I'd should have said "flawed logic". 

I still don't see, even after reading your answer, how terrorism should be of any particular concern. Not anymore than with pretty much every other construction project. And I think so due to arguments I mentioned already above.

@hmmwv
Wow, these security measurements sound quite excessive. Do you think it is really necessary?


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> *Bullet train testing set to begin on Beijing link *
> 21 February 2011





hkskyline said:


> The railway ministry said it was to boost capacity on the Shanghai-Nanjing and Shanghai-Hangzhou high-speed rail lines to make travel to the city's two neighboring provinces easier. There will be an increase in the number of train services from beginning of next month and the extra trains will stop at Changzhou and Wuxi in Jiangsu Province, as well as Haining and Hangzhou in Zhejiang Province.


It is the beginning of March now.
Are the extra trains to Changzhou and Wuxi running?


----------



## zergcerebrates

khoojyh said:


> Actually, i have a concern on terrorist atack, how they are going to maintain the security of high speed train? i believe the terrorist will target high speed train.
> 
> we dont wish to see same thing happened in London and Mumbai happen in China.




Well I guess I can answer your question without being screamed at by others LOL.

China does not have the same issue as western countries regarding to terrorist. There are no known terrorist groups outside of China that wants to target China unlike US, UK, or France. The 4 terrorist groups inside China are all linked to the East Turkestan Independence movement located in Xinjiang province to the far west and are relatively weak. All attacks have been in that area and are extremely rare in Chinese coastal regions if ever. Procuring weapons or bombs in China is nearly impossible and the Chinese security forces are quite effective in preventing terrorist attacks. The terrorist in China won't dare to do anything huge as they know the Chinese government take extreme measures in retalliation and they could say good bye to their Independence movement or even reducing their autonomy. Look around the world communist countries in general don't have terrorist issues its the only effective antidote against Islamic terror.


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## SamuraiBlue

zergcerebrates said:


> Well I guess I can answer your question without being screamed at by others LOL.
> Look around the world communist countries in general don't have terrorist issues its the only effective antidote against Islamic terror.


Hate to say this but look around the world there are not many Communist countries *PERIOD*.
Communism is a minority in terms of governmental leadership.


----------



## hkskyline

zergcerebrates said:


> Well I guess I can answer your question without being screamed at by others LOL.
> 
> China does not have the same issue as western countries regarding to terrorist. There are no known terrorist groups outside of China that wants to target China unlike US, UK, or France. The 4 terrorist groups inside China are all linked to the East Turkestan Independence movement located in Xinjiang province to the far west and are relatively weak. All attacks have been in that area and are extremely rare in Chinese coastal regions if ever. Procuring weapons or bombs in China is nearly impossible and the Chinese security forces are quite effective in preventing terrorist attacks. The terrorist in China won't dare to do anything huge as they know the Chinese government take extreme measures in retalliation and they could say good bye to their Independence movement or even reducing their autonomy. Look around the world communist countries in general don't have terrorist issues its the only effective antidote against Islamic terror.


 But there are bomb attacks within these areas and every now and then it spreads to an odd bombing in Beijing. While the threat is not as grave as the Chechens in Russia or India vs. Pakistan, China's threat is nevertheless very real, and can easily blow up at any time.


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## hmmwv

Slartibartfas said:


> @hmmwv
> Wow, these security measurements sound quite excessive. Do you think it is really necessary?


The measures were in place mainly to ensure the tracks are free of foreign objects or damages, farmers love to cross train tracks to save a little bit of time. The newly built HSR lines are relatively easy to guard because most of route is on viaduct, for example, Beijing-Shanghai HSR is 86% elevated.


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## Silly_Walks

zergcerebrates said:


> Look around the world communist countries in general don't have terrorist issues its the only effective antidote against Islamic terror.


lol... thinking China is communist. It's only Communist in the "government wants to control everything" part. There's hardly any real ideological communism in China, and economically China is almost more capitalist than the US :lol:


But i do agree that China's tight control seems rather effective against terrorists.
It might also be that terrorists have "bigger fish to fry": their attention is focussed at the eeeevil West... maybe once the West is subdued, they will focus more on China :nuts:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/265363.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/19/bomb-kills-seven-china-xinjiang

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/07/22/chinabus-bomb-attack-created-panic-and-indignation/

http://www.china.org.cn/china/2011-02/16/content_21935310.htm

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/406041/1/.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article4495365.ece


Etcetera, etcetera.


Now back to trains. No place for political discussions here, unless it is somewhat directly linked to rail.


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## khoojyh

Dear my all friend

I am just voice up my concern, terrorist will be weaker or sometime stronger enough to bring down a pair of building.

my point is simple, HSR passenger rate is keeping higher or even more in another few years till its become part of life in China cities. Terrorist will not absolutely target HSR, my initiate point is that it might be one of the target in future if seperarist is capable.

London, Madrid, Mumbai are the example, they attack train station is not everyday or everytime or every year but its happened and killed many of innocent people which use it to reach their workplace or destination. They are just trying to spread the fear among public.

Any public facilities will be targeted, how China security force to protect HSR, i have no idea, how they stop terrorist attak, i have no idea but once its attack by terrorist, new policy or new technology will be appear like one of our forumer mentioned earlier. Do we need to wait till 300 people sacrifice? introduce new technolody then?

Maybe somebody from China can explain how they is the HSR security in China, i am kinda interested to know.

If we talk about terrorist attack to make lost on economic, i am sure they will target nuclear plant if the terrorist is capable to do so, but if they not capable so airline, subway, bus and famous public area will be target, why? reason is simple, because its part of our life and we can see it almost everyday or every hour.

Absolutely, the fact is China facing terrorist attack is lower if compare to Russia, USA, UK, Spain and the rest of USA allies. 

For HSR, i believe we clearly know the future of it and how its effect the country or city development like the positive development bring by airport and subway, so there is no reason why terrorist will not target HSR.


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## khoojyh

Silly_Walks said:


> lol... thinking China is communist. It's only Communist in the "government wants to control everything" part. There's hardly any real ideological communism in China, and economically China is almost more capitalist than the US :lol:
> 
> 
> But i do agree that China's tight control seems rather effective against terrorists.
> It might also be that terrorists have "bigger fish to fry": their attention is focussed at the eeeevil West... maybe once the West is subdued, they will focus more on China :nuts:
> 
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/265363.stm
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/19/bomb-kills-seven-china-xinjiang
> 
> http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/07/22/chinabus-bomb-attack-created-panic-and-indignation/
> 
> http://www.china.org.cn/china/2011-02/16/content_21935310.htm
> 
> http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/406041/1/.html
> 
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article4495365.ece
> 
> 
> Etcetera, etcetera.
> 
> 
> Now back to trains. No place for political discussions here, unless it is somewhat directly linked to rail.


If there is an economic benefit, they will target China with the support from a sinking government.


----------



## Geography

> The line will be fully tested from March 20 when bullet trains traveling at *more than 400 kilometers per hour* will make the trip to iron out any problems and make adjustments before the new line opens to the public on June 20.


This is new. Is this a journalistic mistake, because I thought the Beijing-Shanghai line would top out at 380 km/hour.


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## chornedsnorkack

Geography said:


> This is new. Is this a journalistic mistake, because I thought the Beijing-Shanghai line would top out at 380 km/hour.


Speeding over 380 km/h would be forbidden in regular service, but in testing the trains have to demonstrate operation over 380 km/h, both to verify that they have a margin of safety at the maximum scheduled speed of 380 km/h and that they have acceleration performance at that speed. When Beijing-Tianjin line had maximum speed of 350 km/h, the record during testing was 394 km/h.


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## yaohua2000




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## ANR

greenlion said:


> It is designed for 350 km/h, set to open in 2011. and the current view near Shijiahzuang Station is like these:
> 
> the picture is taken fron new line of Jingguang Railway, the lowest bridge is old Jingguang Railway, the bridge on the left is connection line from New Shijiazhuang Stasion to Shitai PDL, the bridge on the right side is Shiwu PDL


Perhaps I missed the information; the station construction pictures are for which new station. Thanks.


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## foxmulder

yaohua2000 said:


>


One of the most interesting videos I've seen. :cheers:


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## khoojyh

yaohua2000 said:


>


Why i dont feel its really fast??? its just like usual train.... its because of view from train interior?


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## 81jun

allan_dude said:


> Cool! modern structure for mongolia! kay:


What???Are you out of your mind?Seriously?


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## hmmwv

Silly_Walks said:


> I agree... but then you see how they put the name on the front of the railway station: they call it a "YaRailway" station... :bash:


LOL I noticed that too, it's probably just slightly more difficult to install where 'Ya" suppose to be, so they opted to have it moved toward the right.


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## khoojyh

I like Sanya station, its just like the combination of Chinese and South East Asia architecture.


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## hkskyline

*China's Guizhou welcomes foreign investment in high-speed rail construction *

BEIJING, Mar. 9 (Xinhua) -- Guizhou in southwest China welcomes foreign investment in its high-speed railway construction, part of the province's massive transport network construction plan between 2011 and 2015, said governor Zhao Kezhi on Wednesday.

Guizhou plans to build 2,993 km of expressway in the next five years, almost double the length it has now, said Zhao.

"We also plan to construct 3,017 km of railway, including high-speed rail that can run trains at 300 to 350 km per hour," said Zhao.

The grand plan needs massive investment, especially given Guizhou's mountainous topography.

"Each kilometer of expressway or railway in Guizhou will cost as much as 100 million yuan (15.2 million U.S. dollars), therefore to carry out our plan, we need at least 550 billion yuan," said Zhao.

Since Guizhou is an underdeveloped province, the central government will shoulder 70 percent of the bill, with the province and private investors footing the rest, said Zhao.

Poor transportation has long held Guizhou's economy back. Having the expressways and high-speed railways in place will boost regional development, said Zhao.

Construction of the 857-km Guiyang-Guangzhou railway express line started in 2008, and will link Guizhou's capital with Guangzhou, capital of southern Guangdong Province, one of the country's economic powerhouses.

With a population of around 40 million, Guizhou is expected to become the transport hub of southwest China due to its geographic position.

Hunan Province neighbors Guizhou to the east, Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region to its south, Yunnan Province to its west, and Sichuan Province and Chongqing Municipality to its north.

Nationwide, China will expand its networks of expressways and high-speed railways during the 2011-2015 period to support economic growth, according to the draft 12th Five-Year Plan.

By the end of 2015, the total length of the country's high-speed rail network is expected to reach 45,000 km, including within it almost every city with a population of more than 500,000, it said.


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## yaohua2000

*Shiziyang tunnel breakthrough on March 12, 2011*

http://news.qq.com/a/20110312/001145.htm

Part of Guangzhou–Shenzhen–Hong Kong HSR Line
Length: 10.8 km, each tube
Designed speed: 350 km/h
Construction began: November 9, 2007, left tube breakthrough in December 2010
The Guangzhou–Shenzhen section of the HSR line is set to open in July 2011.
The line will cut the travel time between Beijing and Hong Kong to just eight hours.


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## chornedsnorkack

yaohua2000 said:


> http://news.qq.com/a/20110312/001145.htm
> 
> Part of Guangzhou–Shenzhen–Hong Kong HSR Line
> Length: 10.8 km, each tube
> Designed speed: 350 km/h
> Construction began: November 9, 2007, left tube breakthrough in December 2010
> The Guangzhou–Shenzhen section of the HSR line is set to open in July 2011.


Finally!


yaohua2000 said:


> The line will cut the travel time between Beijing and Hong Kong to just eight hours.


Not that line. Futian-Hong Kong will take a lot of time yet, and Beijing-Wuhan shall also open later.


----------



## EricIsHim

*China completes construction of world's fastest underwater railway tunnel*

English.news.cn 2011-03-12 14:04:30

GUANGZHOU, March 12 (Xinhua) -- Construction of China's first underwater railway tunnel was completed Saturday in south China, which allows trains to operate at the world's top speed under the water.

The project, or the Shiziyang Tunnel, crossed the Pearl River estuary in south China's Guangdong Province with a length of 10.8 kilometers. It is designed for trains travelling at 350 kilometers per hour, the highest of all underwater tunnels worldwide.

The 10.8-kilometer tunnel, which is also the country's longest, is a key part of a 140-kilometer high-speed rail link that connects Guangzhou, the capital of China's southern economic powerhouse Guangdong, with the city of Shenzhen, also in Guangdong, and Hong Kong.

Liu Guangjun, project manager with the Shiziyang Tunnel, said large shielding machines had been used in digging of the tunnel at 60 meters underwater.

Construction of the tunnel started in November 2007, and the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong express rail link is scheduled to put into operation in 2012, which would slash travel time between Guangzhou and Hong Kong to 40 minutes from the current two hours.

The express is also expected to join with the country's express railway network and take passengers only eight hours from Hong Kong to Beijing.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-03/12/c_13774762.htm


----------



## SimFox

Ariel74 said:


> what is the obvious mistake she made in that sentence? Even if what she said was false, is that really obvious?


Well, yes...
she says:


> Annual interest payments on loans for a high-speed rail link between Beijing and the nearby city of Tianjin, for example, will fall short of the line's annual revenues.


But that would be wonderful! Cause that would mean just opposite of what article claims to say - namely that CRH line (in this case Beijing-Tianjin) is, actually, profitable. Since interest payments are smaller than revenue.
Instead line should have been reversed and read something like this:

"annual revenues of hight-speed rail link between Beijing and nearby city of Tianjin; for example; will fall short of annual interest payments"

It could, naturally be considered a typo. Yet the very fact that it so easily slipped in is, imho, indicative of the preconceptions, or even pre-desired outcome shared by both author and editors - sort of subconscious need to find problems in anything and everything China does. Need that reaches almost epidemic scale in western mass media, often crossing border of banal disinformation. Disinformation nobody notices, cause nobody want to notice. The outcome is expected and desired and taken as is.

Truth is CRH lines do loose money, at least so far. But the volumes transported go up by12-15 % a year. In case trend will continue JingJin line (Beijing-Tianjin) will break even in a year or two. Besides this doesn't take into accout overall economic effect. Line trasposrts daily about 70 000 people. Moving these masses over road (say by buses) would completely clog BJ-TJ highway. And speed of the service virtually unites two cities. 

Another fact that that article completely ignores is that this type of infrastructure is built with a focus on future development. And in itself may facilitate such a development. Central government makes a major effort in developing Tianjin into financial and high tech capital of Bohai rim and wider north China. So it is more then logical.


----------



## foxmulder

EricIsHim said:


> *China completes construction of world's fastest underwater railway tunnel*
> 
> English.news.cn 2011-03-12 14:04:30
> 
> GUANGZHOU, March 12 (Xinhua) -- Construction of China's first underwater railway tunnel was completed Saturday in south China, which allows trains to operate at the world's top speed under the water.
> 
> The project, or the Shiziyang Tunnel, crossed the Pearl River estuary in south China's Guangdong Province with a length of 10.8 kilometers. It is designed for trains travelling at 350 kilometers per hour, the highest of all underwater tunnels worldwide.
> 
> The 10.8-kilometer tunnel, which is also the country's longest, is a key part of a 140-kilometer high-speed rail link that connects Guangzhou, the capital of China's southern economic powerhouse Guangdong, with the city of Shenzhen, also in Guangdong, and Hong Kong.
> 
> Liu Guangjun, project manager with the Shiziyang Tunnel, said large shielding machines had been used in digging of the tunnel at 60 meters underwater.
> 
> Construction of the tunnel started in November 2007, and the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong express rail link is scheduled to put into operation in 2012, which would slash travel time between Guangzhou and Hong Kong to 40 minutes from the current two hours.
> 
> The express is also expected to join with the country's express railway network and take passengers only eight hours from Hong Kong to Beijing.
> 
> http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-03/12/c_13774762.htm


First rail tunnel of China is the fastest in the world.. A nice coincidence for record books..


----------



## fragel

^^first *underwater* rail tunnel


----------



## fragel

SimFox said:


> Well, yes...
> she says:
> 
> 
> But that would be wonderful! Cause that would mean just opposite of what article claims to say - namely that CRH line (in this case Beijing-Tianjin) is, actually, profitable. Since interest payments are smaller than revenue.
> Instead line should have been reversed and read something like this:
> 
> "annual revenues of hight-speed rail link between Beijing and nearby city of Tianjin; for example; will fall short of annual interest payments"
> 
> It could, naturally be considered a typo. Yet the very fact that it so easily slipped in is, imho, indicative of the preconceptions, or even pre-desired outcome shared by both author and editors - sort of subconscious need to find problems in anything and everything China does. Need that reaches almost epidemic scale in western mass media, often crossing border of banal disinformation. Disinformation nobody notices, cause nobody want to notice. The outcome is expected and desired and taken as is.
> 
> Truth is CRH lines do loose money, at least so far. But the volumes transported go up by12-15 % a year. In case trend will continue JingJin line (Beijing-Tianjin) will break even in a year or two. Besides this doesn't take into accout overall economic effect. Line trasposrts daily about 70 000 people. Moving these masses over road (say by buses) would completely clog BJ-TJ highway. And speed of the service virtually unites two cities.
> 
> Another fact that that article completely ignores is that this type of infrastructure is built with a focus on future development. And in itself may facilitate such a development. Central government makes a major effort in developing Tianjin into financial and high tech capital of Bohai rim and wider north China. So it is more then logical.


those who try to prove that the Jingjin ICL's financial situation is a mess often add the cost of Beijing South Station and Tianjin station upgrade project to the ICL's total cost. The thing is, Beijing South is not dedicated to this line only, it will be used for other HSRs such as Beijing-Shanghai HSR.

Another common mistake, which might not apply to the Jingjin ICL discussion but I've seen many times in the forum discussion of national railway financial analysis, is that when some people were analyzing how MOR is going to use its annual after-tax profit to pay the loan, they didn't realize that after-tax profit has already excluded the interest. Thus, they often count the interest payments twice, which naturally makes the financial status look much worse.


----------



## yaohua2000

fragel said:


> ^^first *underwater* rail tunnel


This report is not accurate. Wuhan–Guangzhou line's Liuyanghe Tunnel has the same speed limit.


----------



## foxmulder

fragel said:


> ^^first *underwater* rail tunnel


ohh really


----------



## hkskyline

*Rail link to strengthen bonds with SE Asia*
11 March 2011
China Daily - Hong Kong Edition

BEIJING - Construction of a railway linking China to mainland Southeast Asia through Laos is to begin next month, bringing China closer geographically and diplomatically with its trading partners, analysts said.

Laos' official KPL news agency said on Tuesday the 421-km railway is set to be completed in four years, running at 200 km per hour for passenger transportation and 120 km per hour for goods transportation.

China's Ministry of Railways did not confirm the report.

Chinese contractors will build the railway, with Laos providing the land for the project, linking Southwest China's Yunnan province with the Lao capital Vientiane, according to German press agency DPA.

The railway will turn Laos from being a landlocked nation to a regional land transport hub, as it would connect it with China and other ASEAN member countries including Thailand, Malaysia and Singapore.

"Building international thoroughfares connecting China, Southeast and South Asia has been an important policy for Yunnan province in recent years," Qin Guangrong, governor of Yunnan province, told China Daily.

According to the Yunnan provincial government, Yunnan's road, railway and water transportation infrastructure has reached China's borders with Vietnam, Laos and Myanmar.

Construction of four roads and four railways connecting Yunnan with Southeast and South Asian nations is currently underway, it said.

ASEAN economic ministers welcomed China's plan to expand its high-speed rail links with ASEAN member countries, as they believe such connectivity will boost trade and investment, a significant factor in narrowing the development gap, according to a report in the Vientiane Times newspaper.

The Central Asian nation of Kazakhstan signed an agreement with China in February for cooperation on construction of a high-speed rail link connecting its capital city of Astana and Almaty, the nation's business hub.

Chinese rail companies are also bidding for high-speed projects in the United States and Australia, and Argentina has also bought high-speed trains from China, according to the Financial Times.

China's high-speed rail companies have the advantage of building high-speed rails much more cheaply than their competitors.

China's "high-speed railway diplomacy" has attracted the world's attention, which is a natural result of China's leading technology in this field, said Zhang Shengjun, deputy dean of the Institute of Political Science and International Studies at Beijing Normal University.

"China can now cooperate with other countries in high-tech areas, which is big improvement from being a 'global factory'," Zhang said.

"It promotes China's pragmatic cooperation with others and opens a new area for China's diplomacy," Zhang added.

Guo Anfei and Xin Dingding contributed to this story.


----------



## hkskyline

*Cities, property developers poised to build on speedy links*
9 March 2011
SCMP

The ambitious high-speed rail rollout on the mainland promises to be a boon for property developers, CB Richard Ellis executive director Andrew Ness says.

By 2020, the high-speed network was expected to reach 20,000 kilometres, connect more than 80 cities, serve half the country's population and reduce travel time by 60 per cent, Ness said.

"Some cities have major plans to regenerate areas around high-speed rail stations. A lot of money is going to be made by private property developers and local governments."

For example, Longhua district in Shenzhen was benefiting from the rail development, with Hong Kong developers building land banks there, he said. Longhua will be home to an interchange for the Shenzhen Metro Line 12, to be built by Hong Kong's MTR Corporation and due to open later this year. It is also slated to be a stop on the high-speed rail link to Guangzhou and a future high-speed link to Shanghai.

The district, which now has about 20,000 people, is planning 13.3 million square metres of new development to accommodate 240,000.

Shanghai, meanwhile, was developing 26 square kilometres of land around the Hongqiao transport hub, which contained an airport, a metro rail station and a high-speed rail station, Ness said. The Shanghai government had started selling land sites from that development, he said.

Last September, Hong Kong-listed Shui On Land acquired land next to the Hongqiao hub for 3.19 billion yuan (HK$3.69 billion), the company announced. That piece of land has a gross floor area of 233,140 square metres on which a mixed-use development with a net site area of 62,300 square metres will be built.

Recently, property developers had been creating land banks to build offices in Wuxi, a city in Jiangsu province that lay on the operational high-speed railway between Shanghai and Nanjing, Ness said. "Wuxi is now all of a sudden taking off. Being 40 minutes to Shanghai by high-speed railway, a business park in Wuxi is as viable as one in Shanghai."

Cities near large metropolitan areas such as Beijing and Guangzhou would serve as satellites as a result of the high-speed links, Ness added. He cited Langfang in Hebei province, connected to Beijing by a high-speed railway.

Another example is Foshan, linked to Guangzhou, 21 kilometres away, by a metro line and, in the future, an intercity rail line. "It has completely revolutionised Foshan," he said. "Quite a few Hong Kong property developers have massive land banks in Foshan."


----------



## fragel

It is the middle of March. It should have been one hell of a show of record breaking.

oh well.


----------



## fragel

yaohua2000 said:


> This report is not accurate. Wuhan–Guangzhou line's Liuyanghe Tunnel has the same speed limit.


you are right. but maybe they think the Liuyanghe Tunnel has only a small section under Liuyanghe, and Shiziyang has a much larger area of water.


----------



## uwhuskies

*Nice video by Zhang Yi-mou for CR*

Official CR video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43yWhj2th_E&feature=related

The quality is excellent and unlike the majority of videos, the music is complimentary.:banana:


----------



## clyde the puffy cat

Hi all.
I know it's still a few months away, but has there been any info on ticket prices for the Beijing-Shanghai HSR yet?


----------



## HunanChina

*Chengdu East Railway Station is preparing...*

Chengdu East Railway Station will server for

Chengdu-Chongqing line 308km 350km/h 2010-2014
Chengdu-Xi'an line 519km 250km/h+ 2010-2014
Chengdu-Guiyang line 520km 250km/h 2010-2015
Chengdu-Kunming line Planning
Chengdu-Lhasa line Planning


----------



## zergcerebrates

^ The station is nice and grand, I like how they use the green pillars reminded me of those old bronze artifacts from the Xia dynasty. I like everything except the red Chinese words/characters on buildings as usual. Why must they use red all the time and why must they put it on top of the building its so ugly. They could of simply put smaller Chinese characters in dark grey or green matching the pillar on the white front roof area.


----------



## fragel

clyde the puffy cat said:


> Hi all.
> I know it's still a few months away, but has there been any info on ticket prices for the Beijing-Shanghai HSR yet?


no official release of ticket price yet--generally available a few days before the the service starts. but speculations (both by fans and some railway personnel) are saying that a ride from Beijing to Shanghai probably costs around 600 RMB:

Shanghai-Hangzhou HSR charges 0.484 RMB per km per person, so if Beijing-Shanghai HSR charges the same (might be a little bit higher) 
500*0.484+(1318-500)*0.484*90%=598.32

In practice, the number could be slightly higher since Beijing-Shanghai HSR is of higher standard.


----------



## HunanChina

zergcerebrates said:


> ^ The station is nice and grand, I like how they use the green pillars reminded me of those old bronze artifacts from the Xia dynasty. I like everything except the red Chinese words/characters on buildings as usual. Why must they use red all the time and why must they put it on top of the building its so ugly. They could of simply put smaller Chinese characters in dark grey or green matching the pillar on the white front roof area.



red color characters is nice, but I hate clerical script(隶书体)


----------



## HunanChina

*Wuhan-Guangzhou CRH line is busy...*

Hengyang East Railway Station


----------



## HunanChina

*CRH380A is running on the Hainan ER ICL*

4 special CRH380A (all VIP cabin) will server for "Boao Forum for Asia" on the Hainan ER ICL.

thanks 成段车迷


----------



## hkskyline

*Tianjin - Beijing *
Source : http://pic.feeyo.com/posts/524/5248272.html


----------



## clyde the puffy cat

fragel said:


> no official release of ticket price yet--generally available a few days before the the service starts. but speculations (both by fans and some railway personnel) are saying that a ride from Beijing to Shanghai probably costs around 600 RMB:
> 
> Shanghai-Hangzhou HSR charges 0.484 RMB per km per person, so if Beijing-Shanghai HSR charges the same (might be a little bit higher)
> 500*0.484+(1318-500)*0.484*90%=598.32
> 
> In practice, the number could be slightly higher since Beijing-Shanghai HSR is of higher standard.


Hi Fragel, thanks for the info. Gee that sounds like pretty good value, I think thats around 100 aussie dollars. Carnt wait to tour around China on the HSR, hopefully in a couple of years time, photographing this giant countries beautiful scenery and viewing all the developments in the big cities. 

P.s I loved your thread on the Chinese Water Towns, I'll have to visit some of those towns too:cheers:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

fragel said:


> no official release of ticket price yet--generally available a few days before the the service starts. but speculations (both by fans and some railway personnel) are saying that a ride from Beijing to Shanghai probably costs around 600 RMB:
> 
> Shanghai-Hangzhou HSR charges 0.484 RMB per km per person, so if Beijing-Shanghai HSR charges the same (might be a little bit higher)
> 500*0.484+(1318-500)*0.484*90%=598.32
> 
> In practice, the number could be slightly higher since Beijing-Shanghai HSR is of higher standard.


Which is the applicable distance here: the distance along new high-speed railway or the distance along the parallel old low speed railway?


----------



## zergcerebrates

HunanChina said:


> red color characters is nice, but I hate clerical script(隶书体)


Its tacky and out of all text colors red is an eye sore. I am mostly more annoyed by the huge characters on top of the roofs. They could of create something like these stations instead. Way more elegant and simple and modern.

*Seoul Station*











*Taiwan Hsinchu Station*










Notice the Hsinchu station no characters on top of roof, much nicer









Train station in Belgium. No words on top, imagine if this station was in China and a huge red Chinese characters were on top you know how ugly it is?









or this with red Chinese characters on top? UGLY


----------



## zergcerebrates

HunanChina said:


> red color characters is nice, but I hate clerical script(隶书体)


OK I took the liberty to photoshop this station this is what I am talking about, they could of done something like this its much cleaner and modern. Not tacky.










or they can do this:










Instead of this:









^ you see the original red words? Its lost in the glass.


----------



## CarlosBlueDragon

zergcerebrates said:


> OK I took the liberty to photoshop this station this is what I am talking about, they could of done something like this its much cleaner and modern. Not tacky.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


i like it 

Need Top Chinese word and down English word


----------



## Silly_Walks

When i was in China, i noticed the ugly red letters where very pervasive.

Also: golden colored skyscrapers.

I don't know why... are these tacky things appreciated by the Chinese, or is it some government mandate that letters HAVE to be bright red?


----------



## AlexisMD

Silly_Walks said:


> When i was in China, i noticed the ugly red letters where very pervasive.
> 
> Also: golden colored skyscrapers.
> 
> I don't know why... are these tacky things appreciated by the Chinese, or is it some government mandate that letters HAVE to be bright red?



It's obvious why, because red is associated with communism 
Just look at China's flag , or USSR flag, or North Korea flag


----------



## LHCHL

I like the red banners, it doesn't look very good to be honest, but without it you don't feel like you are in China. 

As for the color red, China has been using that color for centuries, you give out Red envelopes on New Years, you wear Red on New Years, Forbidden City is colored red, I can go on, red is suppose to be lucky, guess that's why the communists won :lol:


----------



## hmmwv

Shanghai Railways Station has a very modern sign.


----------



## drunkenmunkey888

hmmwv said:


> Shanghai Railways Station has a very modern sign.


No it doesn't... it's got the same ugly tacky red letters on it. Same with Hongqiao Railway Station. IMO it has by far the most sophisticated design in China if not the world for a rail station but even a beauty such as it has the ugly red characters on it. 

w/e now it looks tacky but once China becomes a developed country, it would look classy and other countries would try to imitate it.


----------



## binhai

I'm probably one of the only that's not bothered in the least by the huge red characters, they serve their function well, and look good, traditional yet modern at the same time


----------



## Nozumi 300

I don't mind the red characters since the whole point is to tell the person where they are, which it clearly does since everyone notices it. But if the MOR wanted to keep with the modernity of the rest of the building, they should at least pick a modern-feel script.


----------



## Luli Pop

red colour for occidentals means danger, poison, beware!

if I´m not wrong (I studied it in mkt 6 years ago) red colour means modernity, innovation, new for chinese.

so the perception of those caracters is completly different over there...

is that correct?

personally, I prefer chinese caraters bigger and more visible than english caracters. since it´s in China the hierarchy of local language over foreign must be clearly visible (in most countries station names are only in local language).

I like the original design, I'd just paint red the pillars and instead of "Chengdu East Railway Station" in red, i'd put it in white and just "Chengdu East" or "Chengdu East Station".

could the ilustrator help me please?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Guangzhou-Hong Kong high speed railway*

What are the opening due dates of Longhua (Shenzhen North) station, Futian station and Kowloon West terminal?


----------



## hkskyline

By *喜鹊* from a Chinese photography forum :


----------



## foxmulder

fragel said:


> if there is any safety issue, it is more likely the safety of the minister's position and profit of the airlines.


:lol: good one...


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ main difference from a 300 to a 380km/h is energy consumption. At those speeds, friction with rails and cantenary problems are less important than air resistance itself.

If you had sub-spec construction, that speed reduction won't do any good in terms of preventing a catastrophic failure.


----------



## WatcherZero

Those 80kmh are equivalent to 60% more energy if it hit a track fault, probably almost as catastrophic as those speeds anyway but think about the extra energys wear on the trackbed that would cause a fault to develop in the firstplace.


----------



## Suburbanist

WatcherZero said:


> Those 80kmh are equivalent to 60% more energy if it hit a track fault, probably almost as catastrophic as those speeds anyway but think about the extra energys wear on the trackbed that would cause a fault to develop in the firstplace.


I don't know details about specs, but the force of attrition wheel-rail doesn't increase that much after 200km/h-250km/h. Air resistance is the culprit for the extra energy required.

Momentum is not that relevant for wear and tear of rail infrastructure at those speeds anyway.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

Suburbanist said:


> I don't know details about specs, but the force of attrition wheel-rail doesn't increase that much after 200km/h-250km/h. Air resistance is the culprit for the extra energy required.
> 
> Momentum is not that relevant for wear and tear of rail infrastructure at those speeds anyway.


You do understand the concept of F=ma don't you.(Newton's law of motions)
I also believe you understand the concept of law of the conservation of energy.
How does trains obtain motion?
By applying the third law, the mutual forces of action and reaction between two bodies are equal, opposite and collinear. This means that whenever a first body exerts a force F on a second body, the second body exerts a force −F on the first body. F and −F are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction in relation between trains and tracks you get your answer.


----------



## Suburbanist

SamuraiBlue said:


> You do understand the concept of F=ma don't you.(Newton's law of motions)
> I also believe you understand the concept of law of the conservation of energy.
> How does trains obtain motion?
> By applying the third law, the mutual forces of action and reaction between two bodies are equal, opposite and collinear. This means that whenever a first body exerts a force F on a second body, the second body exerts a force −F on the first body. F and −F are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction in relation between trains and tracks you get your answer.


I do understand that, but wear and tear is a bit more complicated. Wear and tear are caused by different forces experienced by the trackbed: repeated compression, vibrations, resonance, attrition-heat etc.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

Suburbanist said:


> I do understand that, but wear and tear is a bit more complicated. Wear and tear are caused by different forces experienced by the trackbed: repeated compression, vibrations, resonance, attrition-heat etc.


All those forces you mentioned are attributed to acceleration returning to my earlier post.


----------



## Fan Railer

don't tempt me to get started on physics... i could type an essay on that crap right now....specific values, equations, and all that good stuff....


----------



## Pansori

So could anyone provide us with at least some rough estimates of how much extra energy is needed to run at 350km/h and 380km/h compared to 300km/h?


----------



## Fan Railer

Pansori said:


> So could anyone provide us with at least some rough estimates of how much extra energy is needed to run ar 350km/h and 380km/h compared to 300km/h?


well... given that you can find the mass of the train.. use the formula:

Kinetic Energy = 1/2(mass)(velocity^2)

for each speed. (use kg for mass and m/s for velocity)

the answer will provide the amount of energy in joules that the train has at each respective speed... in ideal conditions.

obviously friction and air resistance will add a lot to the energy, but this is what you can get for the average base energy. seeing as the velocity term is squared, it gives you a rough estimate of how much more energy you would need to move an object at faster speeds.


----------



## hkhui

BarbaricManchurian said:


> RIP HSR in China, 2008-2011. It was a good 3 years, indeed. No more grandiose plans of a line to Europe. No plans of a line to Singapore. No more pushing the limits of speed and what transportation and engineering can accomplish. All over some petty intraparty feud.


Looks like China Daily says otherwise about the plans to Europe. Although it doesn't say anything about HSR, this is still positive for the Chinese rail industry

China planning New Silk Road to Europe


> 09:25, April 15, 2011
> 
> China is planning a "New Silk Road" that will run through Central Asia and continue into Europe facilitating improved transport and trade.
> 
> The road will complement a planned "Silk Track" railway that will also boost connections with Europe and the countries in between, officials and experts have confirmed.
> 
> Sources with the Xinjiang highway administration said construction will soon start on a 213-km expressway between Kashgar and Erkeshtam. The road is expected to be put into use in September 2013.
> 
> The project, which is likely to cost 4.3 billion yuan ($660 million), is being described as the first expressway to cross the Pamirs Plateau and offers access to Central Asia.
> 
> Ju Chengzhi, director of the international affairs department at the Ministry of Transport, told China Daily the soon-to-be-built Kashgar-Erkeshtam expressway is a section of the proposed new link between Asia and Europe.
> 
> He said the route within China will start in Lianyungang, in East China's Jiangsu province, and travel through Xi'an, in Northwest China's Shaanxi province, before reaching the Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region.
> 
> The proposed route will continue through Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Iran and Turkey, before heading into Europe, he added.
> 
> "The route will link China with major countries in Central Asia, Western Asia and Europe. It will pass these countries' administrative centers, major cities and resource-producing areas," he said.
> 
> According to Ju, China has also proposed two other road connections between China and Europe -- one going via Kazakhstan and Russia and the other going through Kazakhstan and via the Caspian Sea.
> 
> Experts said barriers -- including technical ones and issues connected to taxation and customs -- are the reason why almost all of China's exported goods to Europe are transported by sea. Even goods from Xinjiang, Gansu and Inner Mongolia are currently sent east by rail to China's ports before they are shipped to Europe.
> 
> China's trade with Central Asian countries has grown nearly 50 times in the 17 years between 1992 and 2008, according to a report by Xinhua News Agency in 2009.
> 
> The report said the trading turnover between China and the five Central Asian countries was $527 million back in 1992 but had increased to $25.2 billion by 2008.
> 
> To facilitate communications and trade, China is also advocating a rail link that would start from the Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region in China and pass through Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and Afghanistan before arriving in Iran, according to Iranian former Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki on Nov 15.
> 
> The railway would then be divided into two routes -- one of which would lead to Turkey and Europe.
> 
> Source: China Daily


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Fan Railer said:


> the answer will provide the amount of energy in joules that the train has at each respective speed... in ideal conditions.
> 
> obviously friction and air resistance will add a lot to the energy, but this is what you can get for the average base energy. seeing as the velocity term is squared, it gives you a rough estimate of how much more energy you would need to move an object at faster speeds.


Yes, but over long distances, friction and air resistance is much more important than instant energy.


----------



## Luli Pop

FT is the ultimate anti-China panphlet.

Should I believe the reasons FT suggests for this downgrade in terms of speed?

Isn't it logic enough the simple reason of making the system more cost-efficient and carry more people consuming less energy?

Are there official explanations?


----------



## HunanChina

take a shower in Beijing West Railway Station.

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/BrgWHoBvwl8/


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Luli Pop said:


> Should I believe the reasons FT suggests for this downgrade in terms of speed?
> 
> Isn't it logic enough the simple reason of making the system more cost-efficient and carry more people consuming less energy?
> 
> Are there official explanations?


Yes, there are:


Sheng Guangzu said:


> “This will offer more safety,” Mr Sheng was quoted as saying in the official Communist party mouthpiece, People’s Daily. “At the same time, this will allow more variation in ticket prices based on market principles.”


----------



## foxmulder

Guys, some of you are over-analyzing the situation. I think this is mostly a political move. Their aim suppose to be cheaper tickets but still it looks purely political to me. When another set of political figures replaces these people, we might see an increase in speed. So only time will tell...


----------



## binhai

The safety concerns are completely unfounded. Lowering the speed doesn't offer an increase in safety at all (in fact, with more different speed services, it's more dangerous), it's just a believable excuse that some will believe.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

> Their aim suppose to be cheaper tickets but still it looks purely political to me. When another set of political figures replaces these people, we might see an increase in speed. So only time will tell...


So are cheaper tickets forthcoming?

The next thing announced to get actually done is requiring ID for all high-speed tickets from 1st of June. How shall it work out?


----------



## hmmwv

This seems to be a recreation of the halt of rapid airport expansion occurred in the early part of the last decade. I for one think in a year or two there will be findings suggesting there is no safety concerns about the system and the speed will be back. China operates as a single corporation, internal competition between railway and airlines are red hot and causing problems. They need to cap the growth of HSR a little bit so that domestic air travel don't get killed, thus also help create demand for the forthcoming domestic passenger jets (ARJ21, C919, etc). We all want China to have the best and fastest, but at the end of the day if it can't bring in money then China will be the loser in the long run.


----------



## Arnorian

I have a question: In which dialect are the announcements at the railway stations in the south of China, Mandarin or local?


----------



## Smooth Indian

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ That is why central planned economies FAIL in the long term. And China's economic failure will be interesting to watch as the country grows more complex and industrialized. You can't keep the tights in the economy forever. I just hope the Chinese government fall sooner rather than later and the communist party is disbanded, but that is beyond the scope of this thread.


The American economy on the other hand hasn't particularly distinguished itself to be a runaway success in the long run either. In China atleast the airlines may have failed bcoz of the investment in HSR. In the USA airlines fail inspite of the lack of govt investment in alternatives. On the contrary despite govt attempts to bail out certain airlines they seem to get bankrupt or lay off employees.
Centrally planned economies when done right can deliver good results. Similarly, a market based economy may also loose its steam by a series of complimentary events. It is better we discuss China's HSR system rather than debate on which economic system is best.
For all the faults that china's authoritarian system may/maynot have, China's high speed rail ambitions are unique and so are the massive efforts behind making them a success. What also sets china apart is how he chinese are/were trying to stretch the limits of steel wheel on rail technology.


----------



## PredyGr

Pansori said:


> So could anyone provide us with at least some rough estimates of how much extra energy is needed to run at 350km/h and 380km/h compared to 300km/h?


Sourse IRJ:


> When running at 380km/h, per capita energy consumption per 100km remains below 5.2kWh


With a seating capacity of 494 (8-car train), i calculate ~25.7kWh/km. At 300km/h, i reckon between 15-17kWh/km.


----------



## foxmulder

chornedsnorkack said:


> Did/do trains at 350 km/h compete with planes for 968 km distance?
> 
> What shall be the trip distance Wuhan-Guangzhou with 300 km/h top speed?
> 
> 
> What is now the price ratio between plane tickets Wuhan-Guangzhou, and train tickets at 350 km/h?


You are an avid reader of this forum and so I am sure you can find the answers in this very topic


----------



## foxmulder

hmmwv said:


> There is no conspiracy theory, this is a fact. If I have a central planning organization who has to balance the economics strategy of a nation, I would have done the same. HSR has killed so many once popular domestic airline routes that it's not funny anymore, let alone the possibility that ARJ21 will never sell enough to break even.


HSR killed domestic airline routes because it has been better. What is wrong with that? I would prefer high speed rail over flight anytime if they are comparable in speed and price. simply because trains are much more comfortable. I think today's technology allows high speed trains to beat airliners below 1000km distances. It is a shame this distance brought down to 500-600km because of corruption and politics not anything related to technology or market.


----------



## Luli Pop

I agree, but this messure is strategic.

it'll give some fresh air to local airliners a couple of years till they develop and can beat foreign companies abroad, then HSR will be at max speed again.


----------



## Luli Pop

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ That is why central planned economies FAIL in the long term. And China's economic failure will be interesting to watch as the country grows more complex and industrialized. You can't keep the tights in the economy forever. I just hope the Chinese government fall sooner rather than later and the communist party is disbanded, but that is beyond the scope of this thread.


this brasilean guy is always wrong, it's funny to read him


----------



## Simfan34

Wow, they really slammed the brakes here, pardon the pun. I've been reading that the trainsets were rapidly being worn out as well, and I'm sorry to say, I knew this would happen. They were running them well into their safety margins, and the "digested" technology just didn't have the capability. 

This all happened because the government was trying to give the impression of innovation, which was really just technology transfer. It's sad to see this happen, but China still has the world's largest network, and 300kph isn't exactly slow. At least I got to travel on it before it slowed.


----------



## fragel

Simfan34 said:


> Wow, they really slammed the brakes here, pardon the pun. *I've been reading that the trainsets were rapidly being worn out as well*


any source or link?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> You are an avid reader of this forum and so I am sure you can find the answers in this very topic


I am sure that the proposal to run Wuhan-Guangzhou high speed trains at 300 km/h rather than 350 km/h is quite new.


----------



## Simfan34

fragel said:


> any source or link?


I'll try to find one, but that's what people have been telling me.



> Experts have questioned the safety of China's high-speed railways. An executive at a non-Chinese high-speed train manufacturer said running trains above speeds of 330 kilometers an hour poses safety concerns and higher costs. At that speed threshold, wheels slip so much that you need bigger motors and significantly more electricity to operate. There is also so much wear on the tracks that costs for daily inspections, maintenance and repairs go up sharply. That's why in Europe, Japan and Korea no operators run trains above 320 kilometers (200 mph) an hour, the executive said, adding that above 330-350 kilometers an hour it is safer and possibly cheaper to float the trains magnetically.
> 
> Read more: http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/den...raking-its-high-speed-rail.html#ixzz1JoXl38u1


----------



## NCT

It really is extremely difficult right now to give an exact reason as to why the HSLs are having their top-speed reduced and HSR programmes slowed. What people must realise is that the railways are a semi-military operation and are such subject to much heavier media cencorship than many other topics or industries, so railway-specialist forums like haise are (as good as) closed-down, and urban-rail forums with rail sections like metrofans told 'not to discuss HSR and Liu', the direct result of which is no facts, but hints, rumours and conjections swimming all over the place. You can automatically discount any mainstream media-source.

Some people say the move is purely political, others say it's to reduce operational cost and pave way for ticket price reductions. Quality issues due to hurried construction have been quoted too. I suspect it's a mixture of those reasons.


----------



## Gadiri

*China's High Speed Rail Network Unsafe and Unprofitable*

True or false ?








> For more news visit ☛ http://english.ntdtv.com
> Follow us on Twitter ☛ http://twitter.com/NTDTelevision
> Add us on Facebook ☛ http://facebook.com/NTDTelevision
> 
> China's high-speed rail network has come under fire for being unsafe and unprofitable. The official overseeing the project was discharged for corruption. With reports circulating about shoddy construction practices, one has to feel a little concerned for Chinese commuters. Here's this report.
> 
> China's massive high-speed rail network is being called unsafe, unprofitable and corrupt.
> 
> The Chinese Railways Ministry Chief, Liu Zhijun was in charge of the construction of the railway,* spanning almost 8,100 miles across China and reportedly costing $395 billion U.S. dollars*.
> 
> Liu was fired In February. He's now behind bars and under investigation for (quote) "severe violations of discipline." During his seven years as chief, he embezzled a personal fortune of $120 billion U.S. dollars.
> 
> Corruption is not the only problem plaguing China's railways. Experts *say shoddy materials were used to cut costs. According to a source for the New York Times, the concrete bases for the tracks were so cheaply made, with insufficient hardening agents that the tracks would warp in five years*.
> 
> On top of the safety risks, high-speed trains are more expensive. A passenger on the Shanghai-Hangzhou line last year said first class was completely empty and he was the only passenger in his second-class cabin.
> 
> With high construction costs, safety risks and dissatisfied passengers, the debt-ratio of the Chinese regime's railway ministry, which stands at about 70 percent, could face an even more dismal future.


----------



## Gadiri

*US TO INTRODUCE CHINA´S HIGH-SPEED RAIL CCTV News*








> *Chicago is on track to become the first American city to introduce China's high-speed railway system*. *Chinese companies are also expected to fund this billion-dollar project*.
> 
> That's the word from Chicago Mayor Richard Daley. He's on a two-week visit in China at the invitation of the Chinese People's Association for Friendship with Foreign Countries.
> 
> Information provided by cctv.com Thank you http://www.cctv.com
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/keymastermind77?feature=mhum#p/a/f/1/Due3iUlaoX4


----------



## Simfan34

^^What on earth does that mean? And what on earth is some cute American chick doing on Chinese television? How on earth can a city have a high-speed rail line?

Great timing, mayor Daley! This is all very terrible, sounds like HSR is in free fall.



> Chinese train engineer: “I will never takes China’s high-speed trains.”
> 
> Translated copy (Sing Tao Daily, 1 March 2011)
> 
> After Chinese Railways Minister Liu Zhijun was removed, it has been revealed that China’s high-speed railway system, currently developing at breakneck speed, has been running at a loss of over RMB$1 trillion (about US$1,000 billion). *There is also a host of safety risks related to rushed construction, lousy quality control of raw materials, insufficient time allowed for the settlement of railway sugrade, and allegedly shoddy work. A European specialist invited to China was said to have stormed out of a meeting, and a Chinese engineer has vowed to “never take China’s high-speed trains in my life”. The Chinese government is calling for a reassessment of the safety of high-speed railways.*
> 
> Under Liu, the operational high-speed rail network has expanded to 4,670 kilometres by the end of 2010, half of which having a speed of 350 kilometres per hour. Last year, the network carried 800,000 passengers per day. The Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway, to be launched in June 2011, hit a world record of over 486 kilometres per hour during a trial run recently.
> 
> According to the Chinese website Caing.com, after Liu was removed, the State Council (the Chinese cabinet) has invited experts to several meetings to look at the safety of China’s high-speed railway. Eventually a range of safety issues were uncovered.
> 
> One expert said: *“It usually takes 10 years to build a high-speed rail network in Europe. China took only two years.* Rushed work schedule is a serious problem, which has given rise to a host of issues, including low quality of equipment.”
> 
> “Numerous lines and projects tend to be built at the same time, and demand for resources is massive,” said a supplier. Such demand can hardly be fulfilled even when factory workers work overtime, and the supply schedules have been compressed drastically.* “Quality fails to meet the ambitions. Sometimes there’s even no time to do random check.”*
> 
> *Subgrade beneath all high-speed rail lines is normally subject to strict requirements. For all kinds of rails, it takes an average of five years for the subgrade to settle naturally. China, however, did not allow a single day for the settlement. Instead it got around the issue by building above-ground railways, or maximizing the lengths of straight rails. Experts say such methods put the security of the railway system in doubt.*
> 
> Another problem has to do with the long line of production, stretched by the employment of numerous subcontractors in order to build a large number of high-speed railways within a short period of time.* Many untrained migrant workers have been assigned to highly technical tasks.*
> 
> The New York Times quoted a source from the Ministry of Railways as saying China’s *high-speed railways have been built with insufficient chemical hardeners. In addition, the pillars supporting above-ground rails might have been jerry-built due to supply shortage in coal ash.*
> 
> The Ministry of Railways has hired a supervisory engineer from Germany to conduct on-the-spot quality control. *The specialist has reportedly urged railway managers and workers to slow down the speed of the trains, but no one heeded his call. He was said to have stormed out of a meeting.*
> 
> Du Junxiao, head of the Sha’anxi bureau of state-run paper People’s Daily, said in his blog that an engineer of the Ministry Railways said before he retired that *“I will never take China’s high-speed trains in my life”.*


----------



## fragel

> “I will never take China’s high-speed trains in my life”.


^^ pls stop circulating ridiculous rumors around, especially the words from the mysterious ‘engineer’, whose colleague happened to be Du Junxiao's 'friend'. That Mr Du apparently knows nothing about engineering and science, as most if not all journalists in China. He claimed HSTs in China were unsafe because: 1. his friend told him that another dude told his friend so (huh, what a nice definition of rumor,eh?); 2. he took the high speed train once and saw a bird hit by the train, and the bird blood scared the crap out of him; he recalled he read some physics books when he was little saying if a watermelon hits a car at 80 km/h, it would be like a grenade. Holy shit, the train is moving at 350 km/h, and birds are hit by the train, so it *must* be unsafe!

I thought u had some reliable source, but turns out you are just referring to some sourceless stale claims.


----------



## fragel

unlike metrofans, Ditiezu HSR subforum is alright, there are not many informative threads but there are sometimes people from factories such as CSR who can share some information.

ourail.com is pretty focused on the topic right now, but again all forum discussion are always not very credible.



NCT said:


> It really is extremely difficult right now to give an exact reason as to why the HSLs are having their top-speed reduced and HSR programmes slowed. What people must realise is that the railways are a semi-military operation and are such subject to much heavier media cencorship than many other topics or industries, so railway-specialist forums like haise are (as good as) closed-down, and urban-rail forums with rail sections like metrofans told 'not to discuss HSR and Liu', the direct result of which is no facts, but hints, rumours and conjections swimming all over the place. You can automatically discount any mainstream media-source.
> 
> Some people say the move is purely political, others say it's to reduce operational cost and pave way for ticket price reductions. Quality issues due to hurried construction have been quoted too. *I suspect it's a mixture of those reasons.*


Is there any other possible reason?


----------



## fragel

Russian President Medvedev on a CRH380A
credit: China Daily


----------



## Toronto999

*"Experts say shoddy materials were used to cut costs. According to a source for the New York Times, the concrete bases for the tracks were so cheaply made, with insufficient hardening agents that the tracks would warp in five years."*

Beside China, only Germany and Japan have the technology of making concrete base for tracks. Where are the experts in the news/New York Times from? US? UK?

Look, the "experts" themselves don't even know how to make concrete base...then start to bullshitting on television


----------



## SamuraiBlue

Toronto999 said:


> *"Experts say shoddy materials were used to cut costs. According to a source for the New York Times, the concrete bases for the tracks were so cheaply made, with insufficient hardening agents that the tracks would warp in five years."*
> 
> Beside China, only Germany and Japan have the technology of making concrete base for tracks. Where are the experts in the news/New York Times from? US? UK?
> 
> Look, the "experts" themselves don't even know how to make concrete base...then start to bullshitting on television


Auhh, technology of prefab concrete isn't cutting edge science and the US is very much ahead in concrete chemistry. 
Its not that the US doesn't have the technology it's more to do with they have no use of concrete bases for tracks.

As for the Chinese tracks just wait for another five years or so then argue if it was sub par or not since the communist government is certainly not going to disclose anything that is going to discredit themselves.

As for cost of maintenance being higher for 380Km/h trains/tracks compared to 300km/h trains that is a fact based on physics since 380km trains/tracks are under higher strain due to higher energy transferal compared to 300km train/tracks resulting to more wear & tear.


----------



## Gadiri

Some *HST/HSR historical countries like France, Japan and Germany don't build with concrete*. There is *not sufficiant oberservations after years and years of tests*, for using concrete on HSR. 

The *last technology in France, is to combined road technology and railway traditionnal technology*. And they only began with a 3 km line on LGV Paris-Strasbourg for a 4 years study. 

*Such studies began in 1930 ! 1969 for USA, 1973 for UK*. 

How long are studies for concret railway ? ^^

From moroccan forum and also High-Speed Railway Networks around The World 



> Le tout nouveau procédé de grave-bitume de Colas ne sera peut-être (ou plutot probablement) pas utilisé.
> 
> *Grave-bitume de Colas expérimenté sur 3km de la LGV Est *


http://www.bitume.info/imports/DD/Bi10-Sous_ballast.pdf


----------



## fragel

Beijing-Shanghai HSR Qufu East Station 曲阜东站

Qufu, home to Confucius, probably has the best square among all small stations on Beijing-Shanghai HSR. The avenue in front of the station is named 'Confucius Avenue', and there will be a statue of Confucius erected later on the square.

by 271212 on panoramio.com


----------



## fragel

Beijing-Shanghai HSR Dezhou East Station 德州东站









source: Dezhou Daily

taken on May 26th by 冬夜漫漫


----------



## fragel

Beijing-Shanghai HSR Zaozhuang Station 枣庄站

The station name was changed from Zaozhuang West Station to Zaozhuang Station. They'll have to remove one character from the station sign.

rendering:
source: xinhuanet



























pics taken on May 22nd by 影子三


----------



## maldini

Are there any shopping malls planned for the railway stations? Commercial spaces can be built outside the stations since the squares are so big. In addition, underground shopping malls can be built to save spaces.


----------



## fragel

^^malls? more like small shops and fast food restaurants.


----------



## Geography

> Are there any shopping malls planned for the railway stations? Commercial spaces can be built outside the stations since the squares are so big. In addition, underground shopping malls can be built to save spaces.


Maldini makes a good point, that those huge open spaces are big wastes of space. If they were green space at least they would be attractive, but they are mostly concrete. People aren't going to be hanging out on a concrete open area next to a train station. China needs to build the rail stations closer to city centers, not way out in the suburbs surrounded by huge open areas that make it hard for pedestrians.


----------



## aquaticko

I could probably find this elsewhere on the internet, but does anyone know when the line going out to Urumqi will be operational? It seems like such a massive distance for a high speed train to have to cover; unless the ticket prices are cheap, I expect the line to be infrequently used, which is maybe okay considering where China's population centers are.


----------



## fragel

Geography said:


> Maldini makes a good point, that those huge open spaces are big wastes of space. If they were green space at least they would be attractive, but they are mostly concrete. People aren't going to be hanging out on a concrete open area next to a train station. China needs to build the rail stations closer to city centers, not way out in the suburbs surrounded by huge open areas that make it hard for pedestrians.


my 2 cents:

the squares do look excessively large, if they don't serve as parking lots or public transportation ports (bus waiting areas, taxi port, subway etc). at this stage you'll have to walk for a quite long distance to get around some stations, they should connect the stations with city transportation in a better way to help passengers, for instance, more buses and closer stops to the exit/entrance etc. Nonetheless the newly built stations should reserve enough space for future expansion. The current planning, no matter how futuristic it might be, will be outdated soon. If they only have the capacity for current demand, then they'll have to suffer years of extreme crowdedness in a very short time, and it would be much harder to acquire the nearby land in the future.

As for why not build the stations in city centers, in short, affordability. it is easy to talk on paper or play simcity in terms of optimal location. but in reality you don't have that much money for relocation or land acquisition. the ex ministry of railways was already put in jail for spending so much money (looting seems to be a weak excuse), if the budget were doubled or tripled because of demolishing downtown buildings, then Hu Jintao might have to put himself in jail. it might be better to think of the current decision as a compromise of convenience and land acquisition cost/future urban expansion.


----------



## HunanChina

Wuhan Railway Station is pretty good. I like it

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjY5Mzg4MDI0.html


----------



## HunanChina

High-speed railway and express way, Which one do you like?

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjY5MjAwMTI0.html


----------



## HunanChina

Jinghu(Beijing-Shanghai) CRH test run. Yangcheng lake bridge.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjY4ODk4OTg0.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjY4ODk5NjMy.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjY4OTAwNjAw.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjY4OTAwMjc2.html


----------



## HunanChina

busy Wuhan-Guangzhou line

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjY5MDk3OTcy.html


http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjY1Njg5MjMy.html


----------



## HunanChina

G7015 vs D85

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/9dTScrPZacs/


----------



## HunanChina

Hainan East Ring ICL


http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjUzNDMxMjI0.html


----------



## HunanChina

Zhengxi(Zhengzhou-Xi'an) CRH

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjI5MDY5NjY4.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjI4MDU5MzA4.html


http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTk2MzYwOTMy.html


----------



## HunanChina

Yiwan railway 传说中的宜万铁路...

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjYzODcwMDA0.html


----------



## HunanChina

宜万铁路，壮观。
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQyMTM1NDMy.html


----------



## sasalove

Today's news from SZTV. Shenzhen North Station and metro lines open June 22. High Speed Rail opens August 8.


----------



## aquaticko

sasalove said:


> Today's news from SZTV. Shenzhen North Station and metro lines open June 22. High Speed Rail opens August 8.


我不明白这动态影像! 她说太快了hno:！But this is good news, I was hoping to stop in GZ/SZ/HK for a couple days, after Seoul and before I come back to the U.S.


----------



## Zero Gravity

sasalove said:


> Today's news from SZTV. Shenzhen North Station and metro lines open June 22. High Speed Rail opens August 8.


I have a question oke:
Are there any good chinese TV Stations reporting in English? And with good I mean something equivalent to, for example, Al Jazeera, BBC, CNN.


----------



## Pansori

Zero Gravity said:


> I have a question oke:
> Are there any good chinese TV Station reporting in English? And with good I mean something equivalent to, for example, Al Jazeera, BBC, CNN.


CCTV-News http://english.cntv.cn/01/index.shtml


----------



## fragel

sasalove said:


> Today's news from SZTV. Shenzhen North Station and metro lines open June 22. High Speed Rail opens August 8.


Shenzhen North looks nice. Connection with city transportation seems quite convenient, though it needs 30 minutes to get to the city center by car.

off topic: I don't understand why those cities are so keen on promoting "左行右立"(standing on the right, pass on the left) on elevators in subway stations. It might work great for small crowds, but it would be useless if not causing more trouble when there are extremely huge crowds. Not to mention that it is not safe.


----------



## fragel

HunanChina said:


> Yiwan railway 传说中的宜万铁路...
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjYzODcwMDA0.html


Yiwan railway is indeed magnificent. The open museum of railway bridges and tunnels.


----------



## fragel

HunanChina said:


> Jinghu(Beijing-Shanghai) CRH test run. Yangcheng lake bridge.
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjY4ODk4OTg0.html
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjY4ODk5NjMy.html
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjY4OTAwNjAw.html
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjY4OTAwMjc2.html


this kinda reminds me of the cross lake bridge in Louisiana, only this is an elevated railway.

off-topic: The project spent extra money to adjust the railway route and used different construction methods to minimize the environmental effect on the hairy crab farms. hairy crabs have already invaded UK, Canada and US, and I heard that hairy crabs grow much faster in the foreign lakes. yum yum...


----------



## UD2

wow


----------



## Silly_Walks

fragel said:


> off topic: I don't understand why those cities are so keen on promoting "左行右立"(standing on the right, pass on the left) on elevators in subway stations. It might work great for small crowds, but it would be useless if not causing more trouble when there are extremely huge crowds. Not to mention that it is not safe.


Because otherwise people will stand on the right AND the left side.

People are idiots when it comes to herding instincts and crowds.


----------



## yaohua2000

fragel said:


> this kinda reminds me of the cross lake bridge in Louisiana, only this is an elevated railway.
> 
> off-topic: The project spent extra money to adjust the railway route and used different construction methods to minimize the environmental effect on the hairy crab farms. hairy crabs have already invaded UK, Canada and US, and I heard that hairy crabs grow much faster in the foreign lakes. yum yum...


btw, this viaduct is 164 km long.


----------



## HunanChina

fragel said:


> Yiwan railway is indeed magnificent. The open museum of railway bridges and tunnels.


Yes, magnificent. real real great...


----------



## HunanChina

Guangzhou South Railway Station.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjUwMjMzNDY4.html


----------



## HunanChina

the Shijiazhuang-Wuhan(a part of Beijing-Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hongkong line) CRH will open in October this year.

So, Let us have a look the Zhengzhou East Railway Station(cross connect with Xuzhou-Zhengzhou-Xi'an-Lanzhou CRH line)


http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTg0MTk3NTgw.html


a propaganda film of the construction company


----------



## chornedsnorkack

HunanChina said:


> the Shijiazhuang-Wuhan(a part of Beijing-Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hongkong line) CRH will open in October this year.


When shall Beijing-Shijiazhuang high speed railway open?


----------



## zergcerebrates

HunanChina said:


> Guangzhou South Railway Station.
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjUwMjMzNDY4.html



Simply amazing. Do they have videos about other Chineses stations?


----------



## zergcerebrates

fragel said:


> this kinda reminds me of the cross lake bridge in Louisiana, only this is an elevated railway.
> 
> off-topic: The project spent extra money to adjust the railway route and used different construction methods to minimize the environmental effect on the hairy crab farms. hairy crabs have already invaded UK, Canada and US, and I heard that hairy crabs grow much faster in the foreign lakes. yum yum...


Well it actually works for human flow during crowds. Take Hong Kong for example they've been using this method for more than decades and it works those that are in a hurry can easily walk up the escalators while those prefer not to can just stand. If people stand on both sides it'll create congestion. During crowded escalators most people tend to walk up.


----------



## HunanChina

chornedsnorkack said:


> When shall Beijing-Shijiazhuang high speed railway open?


Maybe 2012, I don't know.


----------



## HunanChina

zergcerebrates said:


> Simply amazing. Do they have videos about other Chineses stations?


I hava no idea


----------



## fragel

Beijing-Shanghai HSR test operation pics taken on May 29th
Shanghai Hongqiao Station
source: xinhua

VIP luxury business carriages are removed from the trains, but these seats will remain in the business carriages:











test trains at Hongqiao Station











test train leaving Hongqiao Station


----------



## fragel

More trains are being assembled for Beijing-Shanghai HSR
source: chinanews.com


----------



## maldini

HunanChina said:


> I hava no idea


Do they have underground parking in other big stations, just like in Zhengzhou station?
Are they going to make use of the wide open spaces near the waiting room for more shops and restaurants, much like at the airports?


----------



## big-dog

Love the VIP seats! Any idea how much does a VIP seat cost from Shanghai to Beijing?


----------



## fragel

^^media are guessing that the VIP ticket would be about RMB 1500, but let's wait for the exact fare which should be disclosed soon.


----------



## fragel

*Harbin-Qiqihar PDL* 
construction pics

source: China Railway 13th Bureau


----------



## fragel

*Hefei-Fuzhou PDL*

route: 








source: jxcn.com

wiki rough route (red line)









construction pics
source: China Railway 13th Bureau


----------



## gramercy

this method of constructing viaducts is simply amazing


----------



## Silly_Walks

fragel said:


> ^^the report is not very informative to railway fans, I am simply amused by this 'professor' Zhao Jian.


He might not think it will make that mark because the line is only starting operation in June? That's missing more than 5/12 of the year.
Wuhan-Guangzhou started operating in December 2009, so they had the entire year of 2010 to measure in stead of just 7/12.


----------



## Luli Pop

fragel said:


> ^^the report is not very informative to railway fans, I am simply amused by this 'professor' Zhao Jian.


the most pathetic part is when he tries to compare Amtrak with a real HRT:



> By comparison, Amtrak’s Acela Express high-speed service carried 3.2 million commuters along the Washington-New York- Boston corridor last fiscal year.


----------



## fragel

Silly_Walks said:


> He might not think it will make that mark because the line is only starting operation in June? That's missing more than 5/12 of the year.
> Wuhan-Guangzhou started operating in December 2009, so they had the entire year of 2010 to measure in stead of just 7/12.


I don't think calendar year is used here. It's always referred to the first 365 days of operation, regardless when the service starts.


----------



## sekelsenmat

Why do they make so many viaducts in what appears to be plain area? Is it cheaper then just doing earth-plaining? Or are they afraid of flooding? It seams so curious to me, I wonder why this kind of build style is not seen in Europe for example.


----------



## fragel

^^ a couple of reasons:

1. the most important non-technical reason is to save arable land. In urban areas it also significantly reduces the land acquisition cost. 
2. many railways are built on soft soil, so building viaducts with piles deep into the bedrock helps control settlement problems.
3. viaducts make the planning easier; it would be hard to meet the minimum turning radius in some area without them.
4. safety and environmental concern. there is no better way than using viaducts to grade separate the high speed railways from the road traffic, animal migration etc.


----------



## foxmulder

Thanks for the updates..


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Bloomberg said:


> *Beijing-Shanghai Bullet Train Targets Flyers Sick of Delays*





> There will be about 90 services a day when the line opens, Rail Minister Sheng Guangzu said in an April 13 interview with state-run People’s Daily .


How many services a day were on Guanzhou-Wuhan railway when the line opened, and how many are there now?


----------



## stingstingsting

fragel said:


> ^^ a couple of reasons:
> 
> 1. the most important non-technical reason is to save arable land. In urban areas it also significantly reduces the land acquisition cost.
> 2. many railways are built on soft soil, so building viaducts with piles deep into the bedrock helps control settlement problems.
> 3. viaducts make the planning easier; it would be hard to meet the minimum turning radius in some area without them.
> 4. safety and environmental concern. there is no better way than using viaducts to grade separate the high speed railways from the road traffic, animal migration etc.


I notice that in East Asia, that tends to be the way HSR is built. Look at South Korea and Japan too. Whereas in Europe, you will more than often see the rails on the ground. I guess this also has something to do with noise restrictions and that residents are much more vehement against obstructions of the view.


----------



## TsLeng

sekelsenmat said:


> Why do they make so many viaducts in what appears to be plain area? Is it cheaper then just doing earth-plaining? Or are they afraid of flooding? It seams so curious to me, I wonder why this kind of build style is not seen in Europe for example.


Since the tracks has to be as level and straight as possible, my opinion is that they have grade separated tracks on viaducts because it can be easily build straight and level. 

And, as they can be pre-cast in sections, it may well be cheaper than making embankments or cuttings that takes up more foot print.


----------



## maldini

sekelsenmat said:


> Why do they make so many viaducts in what appears to be plain area? Is it cheaper then just doing earth-plaining? Or are they afraid of flooding? It seams so curious to me, I wonder why this kind of build style is not seen in Europe for example.


So that people and animals can walk under the viaducts. It is clear that viaducts have numerous advantages.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> What is the speed of the trains on the old railways?


Most K trains (120km/h) are cancelled after Wuguang HSR.
Most of the daily schedule are filled with T trains (140km/h).
A few Z trains as well (160km/h) that continues to Shenzhen.


----------



## fragel

Lanxin HSR update

wiki introduction


> The Lanzhou–Urumqi High-Speed Railway, also known as Lanxin Second Railway, is a high-speed rail under construction in northwestern China. It will connect Lanzhou in Gansu Province and Ürümqi in Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region.
> 
> Construction work began on November 4, 2009. The 1,776-kilometre (1,104 mi) railway will take four years to complete, of which, 795 kilometres (494 mi) is in Gansu, 268 kilometres (167 mi) in Qinghai and 713 kilometres (443 mi) in Xinjiang. 31 stations will be built along the line. The project costs 143.5 billion yuan.


rough route on wiki(light blue line):


















source









source


















source









source

wind-protection gallery experimental section



> Near Shanshan, the railway will go through the hundred-li wind zone, where desert wind constantly blows most days of a year. In 2007, strong wind overturned a train on the southern branch of Lanxin Railway, and four people were killed. A 67-kilometre long wind-protection gallery will be built in this region




















source


----------



## Restless

hmmwv said:


> Wuguang HSR will have two types of trains, one limited to 250km/h and one limited to 300km/h, they will have different ticket prices as well.
> 
> What a f**king mess, they might as well run some trains at 60km/h and charge people 1/5 of the price.


The original business case for most of these lines was additional CAPACITY to alleviate chronic overcrowding on almost every trunk mainline in China. The speed increase is a bonus.


----------



## stingstingsting

fragel said:


> Lanxin HSR update
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> source


Wow. Correct me if I am wrong, but these wind protection barriers are only going to be for a short section of the desert within the "100 li wind" zone right? I take it that the barriers are going to be alternating as well, instead of making one whole long tunnel?

Whatever the distance, this will certainly be a first and a feat for China :banana:


----------



## hmmwv

stingstingsting said:


> Wow. Correct me if I am wrong, but these wind protection barriers are only going to be for a short section of the desert within the "100 li wind" zone right? I take it that the barriers are going to be alternating as well, instead of making one whole long tunnel?
> 
> Whatever the distance, this will certainly be a first and a feat for China :banana:


You are right the wind barrier is only utilized at select sections of the track, and Lanxin is the first railway to implement such method in China.


----------



## fragel

There will be 67 km of such barrier.

The experimental section is 276 meters long. They'll test the wind protection effect and improve the construction method before they build the whole 67 km barrier.


----------



## riles28

I like the way of the chinese in building they own high speed rail, and the train design are very exotic because its different from the design of natural high speed train like in Japan and europe, they made own concept how to make the train looks better and faster.


----------



## laojang

Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
no free health care, no pensions, no wars or occupations, protectionism, endless workforce, no regard for workers rights or other externalities, devalued currency and a planning office should help
welcome troll,go learn some basic economics before commenting.
__________________
中国万岁！！！中国美女万万岁！！！！！ 

Let's don't get too emotional on these and stick to facts. Here is my take on gramercy's 
suggestions.

1. "no free health care" ? partly right, the government pays about 50-60% through basic insurance.

2. "no pensions", totally wrong.

3. "no wars or occupations", totally right

4. "devalued currency", technically wrong. 15 years ago, one US $ was about 8+ RMB,
now, it is 6+ RMB. So on paper, the Chinese currency increased in value.

5. "no regard for workers rights or other externalities",partly right but it is improving.

I think other forumers also make a good points on spending in social security and health
care. Also the shift away from manufacturing in the rich countries did not help. Industrial production in the West account for less than 20% of so called GDP, while that 
figure is around 50% in China. For example China produced 40-50% of the world's steel and concrete, that makes these things readily available for HSL and highways.

Laojang


----------



## hmmwv

asif iqbal said:


> Can someone please tell me where the hell China gets so much money to make these projects? why cant other countrys do this? I mean they just make it look so freggin easy!


US has about $700 billion annual military spending, the Chinese annual HSR investment is about $100 billion, so yeah other countries can do it, but just have to make compromises.


----------



## fragel

gramercy said:


> no free health care, no pensions, no wars or occupations, protectionism, endless workforce, no regard for workers rights or other externalities, devalued currency and a planning office should help


assuming everything you said about China is correct, there are quite a few countries fitting the description you just gave, why haven't they started building HSR even if they really want it?

your arguments are simply too weak on this issue.


----------



## vincent

laojang said:


> Money is a relative concept. The average Chinese is very poor when measured
> by the so called GDP, comparing with rich countries. But GDP is just some inaccurate and relative concept which are not always comparable between different countries. One factor is that in China labors and raw materials are relatively cheap, so a nominally small amount of money can go long way. The second
> factor is Chinese people and government usually have a much higher saving rate in cash. In contrast people and governments in the West usually have much
> more money on paper (GDP, etc), but they also have much more debt.
> 
> Laojang


PPP is comparable between countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity). In economics, both nominal GDP and PPP are widely used.


----------



## fragel

the first proposal of a HSR between Beijing-Shanghai was made in 1990. It has been through so many debates and the project didn't get okayed before 2006. Money has always been a big problem for it before it was approved. In the early 90's China could barely afford 90 billion Yuan for the Three Gorge Dam project, and it had to encourage citizens to donate for the Asian Games in Beijing (the budget was 2 billion Yuan in 1990).

The size of Chinese economy has grown many folds since 1990, and that is the only reason that China has the financial ability to build HSRs. And the policy that enabled the central government to get and then use the money is the tax-sharing system (reformed from the previous revenue-sharing system). 

factors such as low cost (material, land or labor) and financial crisis stimulus packages are reasons why the government chooses to build HSRs now, they are not really reasons why the government can build them.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

Some fact on PRC's HSR projects, the total construction budget for rail for 2011 is 745.5 billion RMB or US$115.11 billion in today's exchange rate.
The debt up to 2009 for all HSR construction is 1.3 trillion RMB or US$200 billion.
The Shanghai-Beijing HSR route construction cost total is estimated to be 220.9 billion RMB or US$34.1 billion and half of cost is procured from bank loans.


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## fragel

vincent said:


> PPP is comparable between countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity). In economics, both nominal GDP and PPP are widely used.


PPP is not exactly very useful, let alone accurate for many countries. The famous informal 'big-Mac index' for instance only works in countries with similar western fast food culture. The formal concept of PPP also has a lot of limits. In short there is no easy universal way to compare different economies.


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## Luli Pop

Kenwen said:


> In my opinion,China and develpoed countries are in two different phase of development stage.China use most of the resources on infrastructures and development to continue the current growth,whereas developed countries allocate most of their resources in social security as their infrastructure are more developed,and once a country spend more money on social security,it would be hard to reverse,cuz pr problems will arise from that,*so Europe and USA find it hard to get money to build such project*.


correction:

in Europe spend is in wellfare state while in US it;s in wars and "defense".


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## riles28

Can anyone have a picture of different type design for CRH Train just like i see in the video, they made different model scale to identify what is the best design for next CRH train.


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## maldini

Kenwen said:


> I think the government currently are doing great at making the tax revenue spent on more efficient way.If most money goes to education,health care,social sercurity like developed countries, it would be hard for goverment to implement high growth policy,so a gradual increase of wealth fare and high economic growth is much better than most money spend on wealth fare which will be crap with such lil money for 1.3billion ppl and less growth.


Actually, if more money is spent on health care and education, more GDP will be generated. You have to understand, at the hospitals, they need to hire highly trained healthcare personnels. Those are much higher paid jobs than those in factories. The healthcare and education sectors provide services and allow the economy to move from export manufacturing to consumer services oriented.

The education sector delivers services to students. Schools and universities need to train staff for the healthcare sector. Again, more professors need to be hired to train new doctors, nurses and teachers. These are much higher paid jobs than those in the factories.


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## maldini

NCT said:


> It's more politics than economics that explains the massive boom in HSR in China.


That's not true at all. The old railway system cannot cope with both passenger and freight traffic. So the new highspeed railway is much needed to handle passenger traffic. When more capacity on the old railway is dedicated to freight traffic, the economic benefit will be huge.


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## Pansori

maldini said:


> That's not true at all. The old railway system cannot cope with both passenger and freight traffic. So the new highspeed railway is much needed to handle passenger traffic. When more capacity on the old railway is dedicated to freight traffic, the economic benefit will be huge.


It's also important to see the planning strategy of the Chinese government. Just like everywhere else (urbanization, nuclear energy program, transport etc.) it's a long-term investment with benefits coming over the long-term and not necessarily straight away. We don't know yet how that will turn into numbers but there is a good reason to believe that it will be very good. If you want a dynamic and robust economy you must be able to move stuff (including people and goods) around quickly and efficiently. It's just common sense I guess.


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## NCT

maldini said:


> That's not true at all. The old railway system cannot cope with both passenger and freight traffic. So the new highspeed railway is much needed to handle passenger traffic. When more capacity on the old railway is dedicated to freight traffic, the economic benefit will be huge.


You and kenwen misunderstand me. Perhaps I should have made myself clearer - no-one doubts there's the economic necessity to build an HSR network, but the unprecedented pace of construction is very much down to the political system of 领导一句话.


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## chornedsnorkack

asif iqbal said:


> so is the Shanghai-Beijing high speed railway now up and running if fo how much is the ticket?>


Sorry that nobody bothered to answer so far.

It is not running. Scheduled services are due to start on 20th instant.

Are the tickets for sale now? If not, when shall they come to sale?


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## asif iqbal

chornedsnorkack said:


> Sorry that nobody bothered to answer so far.
> 
> It is not running. Scheduled services are due to start on 20th instant.
> 
> Are the tickets for sale now? If not, when shall they come to sale?


Thank!


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## fragel

chornedsnorkack said:


> Sorry that nobody bothered to answer so far.
> 
> It is not running. Scheduled services are due to start on 20th instant.
> 
> Are the tickets for sale now? If not, when shall they come to sale?


change of plan: commercial service is scheduled to start on June 28th, if there is no further delay. (probably won't, as they will definitely open it before July 1st)

as for the price and ticket sale, if no one has posted any news from reliable sources, that means it is not disclosed yet.


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## fragel

Beijing-Shanghai HSR Changzhou North Station 常州北站

construction pics by wmss @bbs.xiangshu.com


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## fragel

*online ticketing service starts today*, 11 years after the first such system was abandoned in 2000.

The online ticketing service is currently only available for Beijing-Tianjin ICL, and will be available for Beijing-Shanghai HSR by the end of this month. It will be used for all railways by the end of this year.

ticketing website:
http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/









For the current service, one of four types of IDs (PRC I.D., HK/Macau residents pass, Taiwan residents pass, or passport) is required to order the train tickets. 

Only UnionPay cards (with online banking) are accepted.

Second-generation I.D. card can be directly used as a ticket by scanning at the gate:









more info


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## fragel

Beijing-Shanghai HSR Bridges

Cross Yellow River in Ji'nan

by 渭南老陕 










Cross Yangtze River in Nanjing

by 老茆 (with Third Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge in the background) 











General Huo said:


> Dashengguan Bridge


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## fragel

Datong-Xi'an HSR (Shanxi Province-Shaanxi Province)

cross Yellow River section under construction

pic by 光影梦


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## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> I understand that a major reason hampering high speed traffic Nanjing-Beijing is that there are just 2 tracks, full of 250 km/h trains.
> 
> How about Nanjing-Shanghai? There are 4 high speed tracks. Is it feasible for 250 km/h trains to get through Nanjing to Nanjing-Shanghai high speed railway?





fragel said:


> sure. for instance D trains from Wuhan to Shanghai travel on Nanjing-Shanghai ICL after they reach Nanjing.


Actually it's not possible - there are no tracks connecting Beijing-Shanghai to Nanjing-Shanghai at Nanjing South. If you look at this thread you will find a track layout of Nanjing South, which clearly shows there are no tracks connecting the two lines. A bit stupid if you ask me.

It seems that the main reason for the reduction in top running speed is making the death of airlines slower. There's an article in FT Chinese which seems quite reasonable. Operational cost of the railway is a small percentage of the total cost most of which being construction and rolling stock investment, and higher revenue from faster hence more trains offsets the higher running cost anyway as fixed cost per train lowers, so higher efficiency is actually achieved by running uniformly fast trains and not uniformly slow ones.

The airline industry along the Wuhan-Shanghai and Wuhan-Guangzhou corridor has pretty much collapsed, and this is what would happen if Beijing-Shanghai trains could run in under 4 hours at current prices. Given there are 3 planes an hour between Beijing and Shanghai, the 8 direct G-trains per day between Shanghai and Beijing in the current schedule will prove insufficient, by which time the need to run more trains will push up speeds of the slower trains. So let's hope that the 'soft-landing-for-airlines' theory is correct, and the MOR will think more economically and less bureaucratically in the long run.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

laojang said:


> D trains 7h56min.


7:56 is somewhat inconveniently long for day train.

And not too long for overnight!

Are there any 250 km/h sleeper trains for Beijing-Shanghai, Beijing-Hangzhou, Beijing-Fuzhou and Beijing-Xiamen overnight trains?


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## Silly_Walks

hmmwv said:


> While under 4 hours would be superbe, 4h48m for the entire trip is still impressive. Compare to HSR, commercial airline trip rarely takes less than 4 and half hours, including 2.5hr flight, and 1 hr each to the airports as well as clearing security.


Plus you can keep working and stay connected while on HSR. It's a lot more difficult to keep working and stay connected on an airplane.


----------



## NCT

hmmwv said:


> While under 4 hours would be superbe, 4h48m for the entire trip is still impressive. Compare to HSR, commercial airline trip rarely takes less than 4 and half hours, including 2.5hr flight, and 1 hr each to the airports as well as clearing security.


To be honest, the HSR isn't that much more competitive than airlines at the moment.

1. Cost. The cheapest advance purchase fares on airlines are around the ￥530 mark, including taxes. Adding in the extra ￥25 for the Beijing airport express total cost is about the same as the 2nd class train fare.

2. Journey time. In terms of raw travel time, planes rarely use more than 2 hours, so HSR suffers by about 3 hours. It is true that Beijing South Station is much better located than Beijing Capital airport, so taking the train saves about 30 minutes (journey time taken by the airport express). At the Shanghai end though, the station and airport are at the same place, so there's no time saving there. The boarding process on Chinese railways is almost as cumbersome as on airlines so time saving wouldn't exceed 15 minutes. There's no baggage reclaim upon arrival though, so that's another 15 minutes or so saved. You are still looking at HSR being 2 hours slower, but airline punctuality is a bit of a joke, so there's still hope.

3. Flexibility, comfort and convenience. Railway tickets are amendable and refundable, which isn't the case for the cheapest air tickets, but the process is still cumbersome. Comfort-wise, railways seats are much more comfortable than economy-class plane seats, and business travellers can work with access to wifi and mobile signals.

The current set-up is still giving the airlines some breathing space. Let's just hope that the running speed will eventually become 380 km/h and by some stroke of luck flexible ticketing (like any-time tickets with which you can get on any train), then HSR will truly spell the death of the airlines.


----------



## vincent

NCT said:


> 3. Flexibility, comfort and convenience. Railway tickets are amendable and refundable, which isn't the case for the cheapest air tickets, but the process is still cumbersome. Comfort-wise, railways seats are much more comfortable than economy-class plane seats, and business travellers can work with access to wifi and mobile signals.


I remember when the Wuhan-Guangzhou high speed rail first opened in 2009. There were some technical difficulties for using mobile phone because the train passes the cell-phone signal too quickly or not enough signal tower etc. I am not sure about the wi-fi internet. 

Has these technical issues been resolved yet?


----------



## vincent

laojang said:


> Yes. It is 4h48 min for one stop G trains from BJ to SH, the second fastest G trains take 4h55 min, and the D trains 7h56min.
> 
> IMHO, 555Yuan for 1318km in 4h48 min is not bad.
> 
> Laojang


So what's time needed for the 250 km/h service (with one stop at Nanjing South)? i would think it would be more like 5 hours and 30 mins.

what service exactly are you talking for the time to be 4h55m? 300km/h service with Nanjing South and another stop?


----------



## vincent

fragel said:


> ^^seats will be installed soon, and that won't take much time.
> the main waiting hall(58 thousand m^2) of Nanjing South should be much larger than that of Hongqiao(11 thousand m^2), not sure about Guangzhou South though(I am not sure if its 77 thousand m^2 is for its main waiting hall).
> 
> 
> 
> a full priced economy class seat on most flights costs about RMB 1100 for single trip or RMB 2000 for round trip, but you can get discounted ticket as low as RMB 500(single trip) or 1000(round trip) during low season. extra RMB 160 for tax and fees. Now airline companies even offer some RMB 400 economy class seat to compete with the HSR.
> 
> For single trip flight, it takes about 2.5 hours. But only 72.6% of the flights between Beijing and Shanghai this year were on time(after sacrificing on-time rates on other air routes), and that is already a huge improvement from last year's 45%(could be as low as 32% in last July). During summer time the rate significantly drops due to thunderstorms and typhoons.
> 
> If the original plan of high speed trains running at 380km/h was carried out, then it would be disastrous for the airline companies.


thanks a lot for the info.

As for the area of the waiting hall, purely by just looking at the photo, i think the Nanjing South looks bigger than the Shanghai one. But it definitely doesn't look 6 times bigger. Maybe the 58000 m^2 figure includes area other than the waiting hall.

As a side topic though, i always wonder why the on-time rate is so low. Is it because the Beijing airport runway capacity being too low to meet the demand? or simply just bad air traffic management?


----------



## NCT

vincent said:


> So what's time needed for the 250 km/h service (with one stop at Nanjing South)? i would think it would be more like 5 hours and 30 mins.
> 
> what service exactly are you talking for the time to be 4h55m? 300km/h service with Nanjing South and another stop?


There are no direct D-trains (250km/h). The fastest one is that takes 7h56mins with quite a lot of stops. Those trains are not really intended for Shanghai - Beijing passengers but ones in between.

The 4h55m services are likely to be ones that stop at Nanjing South and Jinan West.



vincent said:


> thanks a lot for the info.
> 
> As a side topic though, i always wonder why the on-time rate is so low. Is it because the Beijing airport runway capacity being too low to meet the demand? or simply just bad air traffic management?


Runways are running close to capacity, but rather a lot of the delays occur in the Typhoon season.


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## vincent

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...t-train-tickets-to-cost-from-555-yuan-1-.html


*Beijing-Shanghai Bullet-Train Tickets to Cost From $86, Less Than Expected*
By Bloomberg News - Jun 13, 2011 1:31 AM PT


The Beijing-Shanghai bullet train, opening later this month, will offer coach-class tickets for a less-than-expected 555 yuan ($86), boosting the threat to local airlines on their busiest route. 

One-way trips in the two different premium classes will cost from 935 yuan and 1,750 yuan on 300 kilometers-per-hour (186 miles per hour) services, Vice Rail Minister Hu Yadong told reporters today in Beijing. The line will move about 180,000 passengers a day initially, he said. 

Fares on three existing bullet-train lines will also be reduced by 5 percent as the ministry slows trains to 300 kph to pare operating costs and boost passenger numbers, Hu said. Beijing Capital International Airport Co. fell in Hong Kong trading and Air China Ltd. (753) and China Eastern Airlines Corp. dropped in Shanghai on concern the 1,318-kilometer Beijing- Shanghai high-speed line will lure travelers from planes. 

“The ticket price is competitive and it will attract some passengers from airlines,” said Li Lei, an analyst with China Securities Co. in Beijing. “Whether the train can retain travelers will depend on the service levels.” 

The line will run 90 services a day each way, including cheaper ones traveling at 250 kph. Operations will begin by the end of the month, Hu said without specifying a date. Ticket sales will start a week before the services. The 221 billion- yuan high-speed rail link is designed to carry 80 million passengers a year. 

Price Pressure 
“The lower-than-expected ticket price is a bit of a positive,” said Gary Wong, an analyst at Guotai Junan Securities Co. “But the operators are facing big pressure to cut prices further.” 

Trains will be slowed on the Wuhan-Guangzhou, Zhengzhou- Xian and Shanghai-Nanjing lines from July 1 to pare costs, Hu said. 

Zhao Jian, a professor at Beijing Jiaotong University, which specializes in railways, said this month that standard tickets on the Beijing-Shanghai line would likely cost more than 600 yuan. 

The 300 kph trains will travel from Beijing to Shanghai in less than five hours. A flight takes about two hours, excluding travel time to airports and waits for check-in. About 25 percent of Chinese flights also suffer delays. 

Air China, the biggest carrier in Beijing, is advertising June 19 flights to Shanghai from 410 yuan on its website. Carriers will offer an average of more than 20,000 seats a day on the route this month, the seventh-highest tally worldwide, based on data from OAG Aviation Solutions. 

Beijing Airport Shares 
Beijing Airport dropped 0.6 percent to HK$3.53 in Hong Kong, after earlier declining as much as 12 percent. In Shanghai, Air China declined 2.1 percent to 8.97 yuan and China Eastern, the biggest airline in the city, fell 1.8 percent to 5.04 yuan. Both carriers closed little changed in Hong Kong. 

To ensure safety on the new Beijing-Shanghai line, the operator will undertake at least four hours of inspections every night, Hu said. A train with no passengers onboard will also be run along the line first thing every morning as well, he said. 

The new line will contribute to a 9.6 percent increase in China’s railway passenger capacity from July 1, Hu said. Cargo capacity will rise by 6 percent, he said. 

The ministry also reiterated plans to spend 2.8 trillion yuan on railways in the five years ending 2015. That will boost the total network to about 120,000 kilometers, said Hu. 

“Investments won’t be reduced,” he said. “The pace of development won’t be slowed.” 

--Tian Ying. Editors: Vipin V. Nair, Dave McCombs


----------



## vincent

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-06/13/c_13925965.htm

*China sets trial prices for Beijing-Shanghai high-speed rail *

BEIJING, June 13 (Xinhua) -- China's railway ministry announced Monday speed-based trial prices for the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway.

Tickets for trips on trains running at 300 kph will be priced between 555 yuan (85.6 U.S. dollars) for second-class seats and 1,750 yuan for business class. Prices for journeys on 250-kph trains will range from 410 yuan for second-class seats to 650 yuan for first-class.

Prices will float according to the market and for the good of passengers, said Vice Minister of Railways Hu Yadong at a press conference.

There will be 63 pairs of trains with the speed of 300 kph every day, cutting travel time to 4 hours and 48 minutes. The additional 27 pairs of trains running 250 kph will complete the trip in about 8 hours, 2 hours shorter than the current high-speed trains.

The 1,318-kilometer rail will go into commercial service at the end of this month, after trial operations that began May 11.

The 136 ordinary trains currently in use between the two metropolises will continue providing service after the bullet trains commence service, according to the ministry.

The ministry decided to slow the speed to 300 kph instead of the previously planned 350 kph for cost and safety concerns, Railways Minister Sheng Guangzu said in April.

Hu said running safety is guaranteed as the track has passed a preliminary check and met standards for running at such fast speeds. Further, the ministry has made specific measures and preparatory plans to ensure security, he said.

Last week, an inspection team consisting of 30 engineering academicians and experts gave the green light for the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed rail line to open after examining the systems communication signal, tractive power supply, operation control and energy-saving and environmental protection measures.

Hu said the new line will significantly ease the transportation strain between the two cities and promote development and coordination between regional economies.

In the initial phase, the new rail will increase cargo transportation capacity by 140,000 tonnes per day and 50 million tonnes per year, he said.

The introduction of bullet trains provides passengers one more option for fast travel between the two cities but threatens to lure away airlines' customers.

A full-price flight is about 1,130 yuan for second-class seats on trips between Beijing and Shanghai, which takes about one hour and 40 minutes. Passengers also pay 50 yuan for an airport construction fee and 140 yuan for a fuel surcharge.

Air China fell 2.07 percent to 8.97 yuan at market close

Monday and China Eastern Airlines dropped 1.75 percent to 5.04 yuan. Train maker China CNR Corp. rose 1.05 percent to 6.72 yuan.

GF Securities said the operation of Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway will win passengers over from planes, resulting in uncertainties to the future profitability of airlines.

Airlines have felt the challenge and cited the expansion of high-speed rails as one of the uncertainties to their future profitability in their first-quarter reports.

Ministry spokesman Wang Yongping said the introduction of the new rail will definitely bring changes to the current transportation structure between the two cities, but it still takes time to evaluate the impact, he said, adding "we should view the change in a positive light."

Hu also said the ministry will implement a new rail operation plan on July 1 that will add 195 pairs of passenger trains to bring the total to 2,128.5 pairs per day nationwide, which will carry 4.01 million people per day, an increase of 9.6 percent from the current capacity.

The ministry reiterated plans to spend 2.8 trillion yuan on railways in the five years to 2015, which will boost the total network to 120,000 kilometers, Hu said.

"The pace of development won't be slowed and investments won't be reduced," he said.


----------



## fragel

laojang said:


> Yes. It is 4h48 min for one stop G trains from BJ to SH, the second fastest G trains take 4h55 min, and the D trains 7h56min.
> 
> IMHO, 555Yuan for 1318km in 4h48 min is not bad.
> 
> Laojang


I thought chornedsnorkack was asking about the exact schedule time. sorry


----------



## fragel

NCT said:


> It seems that the main reason for the reduction in top running speed is making the death of airlines slower. There's an article in FT Chinese which seems quite reasonable. Operational cost of the railway is a small percentage of the total cost most of which being construction and rolling stock investment, and higher revenue from faster hence more trains offsets the higher running cost anyway as fixed cost per train lowers, so higher efficiency is actually achieved by running uniformly fast trains and not uniformly slow ones.
> 
> The airline industry along the Wuhan-Shanghai and Wuhan-Guangzhou corridor has pretty much collapsed, and this is what would happen if Beijing-Shanghai trains could run in under 4 hours at current prices. Given there are 3 planes an hour between Beijing and Shanghai, the 8 direct G-trains per day between Shanghai and Beijing in the current schedule will prove insufficient, by which time the need to run more trains will push up speeds of the slower trains. So let's hope that the 'soft-landing-for-airlines' theory is correct, and the MOR will think more economically and less bureaucratically in the long run.


the air traffic between Wuhan-Guangzhou isn't as important as that between Beijing-Shanghai. Wuhan-Guangzhou airline has more disadvantages, there used to be much fewer daily flights, airports are far away, plus the travel distance is shorter. The Beijing-Shanghai line is the busiest and thus the most profitable line, it has the highest priority of taking-off, you can change flights between the three big companies, there are 40+ flights daily, and Hongqiao Airport and railway station are together. It won't be completely wiped out even if the trains are running at 380km/h. But if 50% of passengers decide to switch from airplanes to trains, that is unacceptable to airlines.

airline companies must be behind the back trying to slow the high speed trains, however, I think the main cause is that the party bosses want to make the train rides cheaper. I have no doubt that HSRs would be profitable without reducing operational speed, there are enough people who could afford the fastest high speed trains. But those who cannot afford or not willing to pay high fares have made significant influence. after all railways in China are public transportation unlike airlines. So the additional 250km/h trains are used to alleviate the public's concern, and to make the mixed running work most efficiently they chose the 300km/h+250km/h mode. when it is politically motivated, it is impossible to achieve the optimal economic scheme.

But the current D-train pricing isn't very good for long trips. it takes much longer time, and it isn't much cheaper than G-train. (410 vs. 555, D 2nd class is only RMB145RMB cheaper than G 2nd class from Beijing to Shanghai.) plus the first class on D-trains are much much more expensive than before. they could be popular on short routes still. When more CRH380 are available in the future, they might cut some of the D-trains and eventually speed up.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

fragel said:


> But the current D-train pricing isn't very good for long trips. it takes much longer time, and it isn't much cheaper than G-train. (410 vs. 555, D 2nd class is only RMB145RMB cheaper than G 2nd class from Beijing to Shanghai.) plus the first class on D-trains are much much more expensive than before. they could be popular on short routes still. When more CRH380 are available in the future, they might cut some of the D-trains and eventually speed up.


So:
old line D train
9:49
2nd class RMB 327
1st class RMB 409

new line D train
7:56
2nd class RMB 410
1st class RMB 650.

Will a lot of people stay on the old line D trains?


----------



## vincent

fragel said:


> the air traffic between Wuhan-Guangzhou isn't as important as that between Beijing-Shanghai. Wuhan-Guangzhou airline has more disadvantages, there used to be much fewer daily flights, airports are far away, plus the travel distance is shorter. The Beijing-Shanghai line is the busiest and thus the most profitable line, it has the highest priority of taking-off, you can change flights between the three big companies, there are 40+ flights daily, and Hongqiao Airport and railway station are together. It won't be completely wiped out even if the trains are running at 380km/h. But if 50% of passengers decide to switch from airplanes to trains, that is unacceptable to airlines.
> 
> airline companies must be behind the back trying to slow the high speed trains, however, I think the main cause is that the party bosses want to make the train rides cheaper. I have no doubt that HSRs would be profitable without reducing operational speed, there are enough people who could afford the fastest high speed trains. But those who cannot afford or not willing to pay high fares have made significant influence. after all railways in China are public transportation unlike airlines. So the additional 250km/h trains are used to alleviate the public's concern, and to make the mixed running work most efficiently they chose the 300km/h+250km/h mode. when it is politically motivated, it is impossible to achieve the optimal economic scheme.
> 
> But the current D-train pricing isn't very good for long trips. it takes much longer time, and it isn't much cheaper than G-train. (410 vs. 555, D 2nd class is only RMB145RMB cheaper than G 2nd class from Beijing to Shanghai.) plus the first class on D-trains are much much more expensive than before. they could be popular on short routes still. When more CRH380 are available in the future, they might cut some of the D-trains and eventually speed up.


I don't think a 5% ticket price reduction change much to help the poor people buy high-speed rail tickets. It is causing other major lines like Wuhan-Guangzhou to run at 300km/h to save that tiny 5% price reduction after July 1st. I don't think it is worth it.




Here is another question that i have. From the news that i have posted above, I think these statements are in contradiction (quoted below). If they are keeping those 136 ordinary trains, that means the old rail lines capacity isn't being free up, how can they increase the cargo capacity?
unless those 136 trains are in a much shorter configuration? or somehow there is some train signal system improvement to reduce the train spacing?

_"The 136 ordinary trains currently in use between the two metropolises will continue providing service after the bullet trains commence service, according to the ministry.


...Hu said the new line will significantly ease the transportation strain between the two cities and promote development and coordination between regional economies.

In the initial phase, the new rail will increase cargo transportation capacity by 140,000 tonnes per day and 50 million tonnes per year, he said."_

_
•	胡亚东: 
京沪高铁开通后，我们在既有京沪线仍然保留136对普速客车。京沪高铁开通初期，既有京沪线释放的运输能力每天可增运货物14万吨,年增加货运能力约5000万吨。 _


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## fragel

when the minister said the trains would be more affordable, he did not mean the 300km/h or 350km/h trains. 5% price reduction for 300km/h is merely a gesture(in fact it is kinda price increase if you consider the 14% reduction in speed). What he really meant is that MoR would put more 250km/h trains in operation, then those who complain about the ticket prices for 300km/h trains can take the cheaper 250 km/h trains. You see it is not real price reduction, it is just service downgrading, but it could shut a lot of complainers up.

as for trains on the Beijing-Shanghai conventional line, there are currently more than 136 trains each way everyday. *all D-trains will be moved to the HSR*, and D-sleeper trains will be canceled, so there is some capacity freed up for cargo.



chornedsnorkack said:


> So:
> old line D train
> 9:49
> 2nd class RMB 327
> 1st class RMB 409
> 
> new line D train
> 7:56
> 2nd class RMB 410
> 1st class RMB 650.
> 
> Will a lot of people stay on the old line D trains?


----------



## vincent

looks like this may answer my own question:

_•	胡亚东: 
二是全面实施混合运行的列车开行新模式。在新的运行图中全面实施了“三种混合运行”的列车开行新模式，即：在时速300公里的高速铁路上，同时开行时速300公里和时速200～250公里两种动车组列车；在时速200～250公里的线路上，同时开行时速200～250公里动车组列车和时速120～160公里普通客车；在时速200公里及以下线路上，开行普通客车和货物列车。这一模式充分体现了结构合理、速度匹配的原则，满足了旅客对不同速度等级、不同票价的选择，是铁路便民利民的重大举措。_


----------



## laojang

fragel said:


> I thought chornedsnorkack was asking about the exact schedule time. sorry


There are many versions on line but no official time table yet.
It is also reported that all overnight sleeper D trains between BJ and Sh will be canceled July 1st. One can guess that they will be refurbished for the 2000km+ BJ Guanzhou/Shenzhen HSL, which will be open by the end of the year?

Laojang


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## chornedsnorkack

So, as of now, the ticket prices, trip times and number of trains have been disclosed, but not actual departure times.

On which day is actual sale of tickets for trains of 28th June due to start?

Also, shall any trains travel Beijing-Shanghai high speed line and continue beyond, such as Beijing-Hangzhou?


----------



## laojang

chornedsnorkack said:


> So, as of now, the ticket prices, trip times and number of trains have been disclosed, but not actual departure times.
> 
> On which day is actual sale of tickets for trains of 28th June due to start?
> 
> Also, shall any trains travel Beijing-Shanghai high speed line and continue beyond, such as Beijing-Hangzhou?


MOR only says " open by the end of June". Assuming the usual practice, 
tickets should be on sale next week (about 10 days in advance).
According to unofficial time table, there will be trains from BJ to Hangzhou.


Laojang


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## chornedsnorkack

Have the ticket prices and trip times on Wuhan-Guangzhou high speed railway 250 km/h and 300 km/h trains after 1st of July been disclosed yet?


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## fragel

Beijing-Shanghai HSR timetable

http://kb.dsqq.cn/page/1/2011-06/14/F8/20110614F8_pdf.pdf

source: http://kb.dsqq.cn/html/2011-06/14/node_48.htm 
(this is a newspaper by Xinhua agency, so it is a reliable source.)

Fare table

http://www.china-mor.gov.cn/xwzx/xwfb/201106/W020110614532447038627.pdf

source: MOR


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## NCT

In an ideal world, even 380km/h trains could be made affordable for low-income travellers, simply by running more trains making each train's share of the fixed costs lower, and this is possible given the current high demands of rail, air and road travel along the route. You could even introduce variable ticketing, where advance purchase and off-peak trains are cheaper, and virtually no-one will lose out. What's politically popular and what's economically optimal don't always go against each other, but the politicians know better ...


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## hmmwv

NCT said:


> 2. Journey time. In terms of raw travel time, planes rarely use more than 2 hours, so HSR suffers by about 3 hours. It is true that Beijing South Station is much better located than Beijing Capital airport, so taking the train saves about 30 minutes (journey time taken by the airport express). At the Shanghai end though, the station and airport are at the same place, so there's no time saving there. The boarding process on Chinese railways is almost as cumbersome as on airlines so time saving wouldn't exceed 15 minutes. There's no baggage reclaim upon arrival though, so that's another 15 minutes or so saved. You are still looking at HSR being 2 hours slower, but airline punctuality is a bit of a joke, so there's still hope.


At Chinese airports you have to check in at least 30 minutes ahead of the departure time, and taking security lines into consideration you better arrive at least 45 minutes to an hour early just to make sure you don't miss the flight. Also both PEK and SHA are known to have frequent delays, I would say on average the delay will be 30 minutes. I flew three times on this route and the shortest delay is 1 hour and longest 2.5 hours (they don't compensate you unless the delay is 3 hours and above). In terms of HSR, not only there is virtually no delay, but I rarely has to arrive more than 15 minutes early at the station.


----------



## vincent

chornedsnorkack said:


> So, as of now, the ticket prices, trip times and number of trains have been disclosed, but not actual departure times.
> 
> On which day is actual sale of tickets for trains of 28th June due to start?
> 
> Also, shall any trains travel Beijing-Shanghai high speed line and continue beyond, such as Beijing-Hangzhou?


I think the last sentence from this quote answer your question.

_•	胡亚东: 
6．第一次实行两种速度等级混跑和两种票价的运行模式。为最大限度方便沿线人民群众的出行，给旅客以充分的选择，在京沪高铁运营初期，我们计划每天安排开行动车组列车90对，实行时速300和250公里两种速度等级混跑的列车开行模式。如果你乘坐时速300公里动车组列车，从北京到上海最短旅行时间仅4小时48分；如果乘坐时速250公里动车组列车，从北京到上海全程最短时间为7小时56分，比现有京沪线最快的时速250公里动车组列车运行时间压缩2小时。京沪高铁沿线省会车站都有始发列车开行。同时开行跨其他铁路线运行的列车，比如北京南～福州、上海虹桥～青岛、天津西～杭州、郑州～济南等等。_


----------



## TheAnalyst

YannSZ said:


> When you look at those train stations they look more like airports than train stations (IMO). Still in the idea to compete with travels by plane.


I really don't think it was their intention to have HSR compete with air travel. It was intended to replace regular rail, bumping passengers upmarket. But it's too expensive for workers, who apparently are now using buses and worsening traffic. And then, people who were using planes are now riding HSR. 

So, instead of going upmarket, they are going downmarket. hno:


----------



## chewys

TheAnalyst said:


> I really don't think it was their intention to have HSR compete with air travel. It was intended to replace regular rail, bumping passengers upmarket. But it's too expensive for workers, who apparently are now using buses and worsening traffic. And then, people who were using planes are now riding HSR.
> 
> So, instead of going upmarket, they are going downmarket. hno:


Well, that is progress. HSR is just another mode of transport that provides good competition to the airline industry. With wages going up as China develop further, more people can also afford to use them. Anyway those who can't afford, do have the options of using long distance buses and slow trains.


----------



## Traceparts

TheAnalyst said:


> I really don't think it was their intention to have HSR compete with air travel. It was intended to replace regular rail, bumping passengers upmarket. But it's too expensive for workers, who apparently are now using buses and worsening traffic. And then, people who were using planes are now riding HSR.
> 
> So, instead of going upmarket, they are going downmarket. hno:


Riding bus is more expensive than riding HSR in China


----------



## ANR

*Full steam ahead for rail projects*

By Xin Dingding (China Daily)
Updated: 2011-06-14

BEIJING - China's railway development will not slow down in the 12th Five-Year Plan period (2011-2015), Vice-Minister of Railways Hu Yadong said on Monday. Railway planning for the five years aims to put 30,000 kilometers of new lines into operation, which is 87.5 percent more than for the 2006-2010 period, Hu said. By 2015, the country's total length of railways will be more than 120,000 km, up from the current 91,000 km, he said. The total investment in railways during the five years will be 2.8 trillion yuan ($432 billion), an increase of 41.4 percent from 2006-2010, according to Hu.

Yu Bangli, chief economist with the ministry, said that although financing for railways, like that for other industries, is subject to the impact of the macro-economic environment, "funds for railways can be guaranteed". Based on these facts and figures, Hu said: "China's railway development will maintain a fast pace. Our pace will not slow down, and the investment will not be reduced." But he did not mention any changes to previous plans for China's high-speed railways.

The ministry said in January that China's high-speed rail network had reached 8,358 km at the end of 2010 and is expected to exceed 13,000 km by 2012 and 16,000 km by 2020. High-speed railways are incorporated as part of the country's "express railway network", which is expected to reach 45,000 km in length by 2015. The express railway network includes railways of three speeds - arterial rail lines at a speed of 300 km/h, intercity and extension and linking lines at 200-250 km/h, and railways in western China with speeds of 160-200 km/h. But the ministry could not yet provide any figures for the length of such a network. 

However, it is clear that the previous pattern of high-speed railway development has been changed following the fall of former minister Liu Zhijun, who was investigated for "serious disciplinary violations". Railways Minister Sheng Guangzu, who replaced Liu in February, made it clear in April that railway development should not outpace demand too much. He stressed in an interview with the People's Daily in April that the future work arrangement will give priority to ongoing projects to ensure they have enough funds for construction to be completed and will emphasize projects that are in urgent demand.

Since those comments, construction schedules for some railway projects have been altered. Wang Yongping, the ministry spokesman, said in May that a few railway projects under construction, which were slated to be completed this year, will not be finished until next year. This caused this year's investment in railway construction to be slashed by 100 billion yuan to 600 billion yuan. Adjustments to some projects that had shortened construction time too much are reasonable, Wang said.


----------



## ANR

*High-speed rail link set for launch*

By Xin Dingding (China Daily)
Updated: 2011-06-14

_All systems go for Beijing-Shanghai project as ticket prices announced _

BEIJING - The high-speed railway linking Beijing to Shanghai, which will open later this month, is safe and reliable and the reduction in operating speed is to maximize efficiency, rail authorities said on Monday. Hu Yadong, vice-minister of railways, told a news conference that all systems are go for the line's opening. 

The Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway is a landmark project. "Its technology is advanced, its quality reliable and safety guaranteed. It is completely ready for operation and will open in late June," Hu said. Tickets for the journey between China's top two cities will range from 410 yuan to 1,750 yuan ($63 to $270), depending on the train's designated speed and seat category. Tickets will be sold online a week before the formal launch date. The 1,318-km line will run 90 pairs of trains daily. These will travel at either 300 km/h or 250 km/h. The fastest travel time between the two cities will be four hours and 48 minutes, or about half the time trains currently take. 

The ministry had previously considered cutting the travel time to just four hours by running trains at a top speed of 380 km/h. Speed cuts will also be introduced on other rail routes. Starting July 1, several high-speed railways, including the lines linking Wuhan and Guangzhou, Zhengzhou and Xi'an, and Shanghai and Nanjing, will see train speeds reduced from 350 km/h to 300 km/h. Trains that run at 250 km/h will be added to these lines to meet diversified needs. The speed cut is in line with a nationwide directive made public in April that said all high-speed trains must run at a slower pace than previously announced - no faster than 300 km/h - to make journeys safer. 

The directive followed a major corruption scandal in February when then railways minister, Liu Zhijun, was dismissed after an investigation into serious disciplinary violations. It raised concerns over the costs and safety of high-speed rail links. Hu rejected speculation that operating speed had been slashed because high-speed railways were unsafe or unreliable. He said that the decision was due to maximizing efficiency.

The high-speed railway was built according to the technical standards of travel at 350 km/h, and all test runs were conducted at 350 km/h, he said. 
During the test period, from November to May 10, trains covered a length of more than 600,000 km, and a one-month trial operation that commenced on May 11 has seen trains covering a total length of 2 million km. The technical reliability of the line, as measured by international criteria, is world class, he said. "But when we decided on its commercial operating speed, we took into account economic efficiency."

The vice-minister said that the railway will operate a dual-speed system with the slower trains making way for faster ones. The bigger the speed gap (between two types of trains), the greater the impact on the line's operating efficiency, he said. The ministry found that running trains at 350 km/h and 250 km/h on the same line will be 20 percent less efficient than operating trains traveling at 300 km/h and 250 km/h. The ministry also took energy consumption, the wear and tear on tracks and rolling stock, into consideration, Hu said. 

The ministry is taking every measure to ensure the line's safety. Maintenance workers will spend four hours checking the tracks every night. Two passenger-free trains will travel the line every morning to conduct safety checks before trains with passengers get the green light. A monitoring system that recognizes any abnormalities, such as extreme weather or earthquakes, will alert the railway's power and signal systems and force trains to slow down or even stop. The railway also has a protective fence, 2.85 meters high, to prevent people or large animals getting onto the tracks. Other high-speed railways have fences ranging from 1.8 meters to 2.5 meters tall. A patrol guard will be stationed every kilometer along the line to look for safety hazards. Passenger security checks at the 24 stations along the line will also be upgraded, Hu said.

The railway is expected to draw some passengers from the lucrative Beijing-Shanghai air route. But a marketing manager with Air China surnamed He said on Monday that airlines are not likely to give bigger discounts but will make greater efforts to guarantee punctuality. While airlines might lose passengers initially, they are confident of winning them back. "People might like to try a new mode of transport," Zhu Qingyu, head of the marketing department at China Air Transport Association, said. "No doubt some passengers might like to try the fast train, but they will make a firm choice over time. 

"As long as China's economy is booming and the demand for travel is increasing, neither airlines nor the high-speed railway need to worry about passenger flow." Ma Xulun, general manager of China Eastern, told Shanghai-based China Business News that the railway will take 20 to 30 percent of airline passengers over the next six months, but the long-term influence will be less severe. 

A poll on Weibo.com of 1,000 netizens showed that, as of Monday evening, 74 percent of respondents believed ticket prices for the high-speed railway were too high, while 16 percent said the prices were reasonable. Li Jiaxiang, head of the Civil Aviation Administration of China, said earlier that to compete with the high-speed railway, airport procedure will be streamlined to cut passenger travel time and efforts will be made to reduce flight delays.


----------



## fragel

ANR said:


> By Xin Dingding (China Daily)
> Updated: 2011-06-14


I wonder if the reporters had adequate primary school math education.
damn it, 4 hrs 48 minutes does not equal 4.48 hours.


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## maldini

hmmwv said:


> At Chinese airports you have to check in at least 30 minutes ahead of the departure time, and taking security lines into consideration you better arrive at least 45 minutes to an hour early just to make sure you don't miss the flight. Also both PEK and SHA are known to have frequent delays, I would say on average the delay will be 30 minutes. I flew three times on this route and the shortest delay is 1 hour and longest 2.5 hours (they don't compensate you unless the delay is 3 hours and above). In terms of HSR, not only there is virtually no delay, but I rarely has to arrive more than 15 minutes early at the station.


If the waiting time is not long, how come these railway stations have large waiting halls?


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## greenlion

Jinghu PDL

G Trains (300km/h)
Beijing South - Shanghai Hongqiao (1 stop at Nanjing South) 2 pairs /day 4h 48m
Beijing South - Shanghai Hongqiao (2 stops at Jinan West and Nanjing South) 6 pairs / day 4h 55m
Beijing South - Hangzhou 5 pairs / day fastest 5h 24m
Tianjin West - Hangzhou 2 pairs / day 
Jinan West - Hangzhou 1 pair / day
Beijing South - Shanghai Hongqiao General G Trains, 33 pairs /day fastest 5h 23m
Beijing South - Nanjing South 3 pairs / day
Tianjin West - Shanghai Hongqiao 3 pairs / day
Qingdao - Shanghai Hongqiao 4 pairs / day

D trains (250km/h)
Beijing South - Shanghai Hongqiao 4 pairs / day fastest 8h 44m
Beijing South - Nanjing South 1 pair / day
Jinan West - Shanghai Hongqiao 2 pairs / day
Beijing - Fuzhou 1 pair /day
Xuzhou East - Wenzhou South 1 pair / day
Xuzhou East - Shanghai Hongqiao 2 pairs / day


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## hmmwv

maldini said:


> If the waiting time is not long, how come these railway stations have large waiting halls?


Because there are so many lines and the trains are so frequent. For example, the current Shanghai Station (not south) is just way too crowded that people riding HSR can't even find seats when waiting. Each departuring halls has several isles of seats, each has a display that shows its respective train, if I arrive too early then I don't even have a designated seating area, when the previous train leaves people will populate the seats immediately. I believe in new HSR stations this problem will be eliminated with the huge waiting halls. At least people won't have to crowd it like a fricken farmers market.


----------



## vincent

laojang said:


> MOR only says " open by the end of June". Assuming the usual practice,
> tickets should be on sale next week (about 10 days in advance).
> According to unofficial time table, there will be trains from BJ to Hangzhou.
> 
> 
> Laojang


looks like ticket sale is 1 week before the opening


_•	胡亚东: 
京沪高速在开通的时候，就同步实行网上售票。具体方式就是京沪高速的车票销售的同时就开始进行网上的售票。现在初步考虑，要在京沪高铁开通之前的一周，就要预售车票。预售车票的时候，就可以通过网上购到车票。 _


----------



## vincent

hmmwv said:


> Because there are so many lines and the trains are so frequent. For example, the current Shanghai Station (not south) is just way too crowded that people riding HSR can't even find seats when waiting. Each departuring halls has several isles of seats, each has a display that shows its respective train, if I arrive too early then I don't even have a designated seating area, when the previous train leaves people will populate the seats immediately. I believe in new HSR stations this problem will be eliminated with the huge waiting halls. At least people won't have to crowd it like a fricken farmers market.


In addition to your points, I believe the scale of the station and all its facilities (including the waiting hall) accounted for future demand growth. In other words, the station should easily meet the demand for the next 20-30 years, and they are building it now in one phase. Another reason is that the waiting hall account for extreme overflow condition like during the chinese new year. If there are typhoon in the area, probably most flights are canceled, and people will use the high speed railroad. That would cause a huge surge in demand as well.

In a country with huge population and huge economic growth, you just want to make sure that your new infrastructure (highway, airport, high speed rail etc) won't be outpaced by demand 5-10 years down the road. I think the country has learned the lessons from past experiences. It make sense to pick the most optimistic forecast and over-design your infrastructure a bit.


----------



## NCT

hmmwv said:


> Because there are so many lines and the trains are so frequent. For example, the current Shanghai Station (not south) is just way too crowded that people riding HSR can't even find seats when waiting. Each departuring halls has several isles of seats, each has a display that shows its respective train, if I arrive too early then I don't even have a designated seating area, when the previous train leaves people will populate the seats immediately. I believe in new HSR stations this problem will be eliminated with the huge waiting halls. At least people won't have to crowd it like a fricken farmers market.


But surely the idea of HSR is that trains are turn-up-and-go and waiting time is short enough not to NEED a seated waiting hall?! Why not simply get rid of the waiting stage altogether and and send passengers straight onto the platform? With platforms so wide I'm fairly certain there's room for a few benches and even some enclosed waiting rooms. Hell even Birmingham New Street manages that.


----------



## fragel

NCT said:


> But surely the idea of HSR is that trains are turn-up-and-go and waiting time is short enough not to NEED a seated waiting hall?! Why not simply get rid of the waiting stage altogether and and send passengers straight onto the platform? With platforms so wide I'm fairly certain there's room for a few benches and even some enclosed waiting rooms. Hell even Birmingham New Street manages that.


not feasible at this moment.

think about the waiting hall at Shanghai Hongqiao or Guangzhou South during the spring festival. if all passengers were designated to wait on the platforms, there could be serious safety issues, especially when both passengers and the authorities have no experience of doing that. and you understand how people think in China, if passengers on slow conventional lines get to wait in seated waiting halls while those riding HSRs (paying higher price and all) do not have seats on the platforms, then all hell breaks loose.

in the long run, they should reduce the waiting area and replace with more shops and other facilities, especially for those stations specifically serving ICLs .


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## chornedsnorkack

greenlion said:


> Beijing South - Shanghai Hongqiao General G Trains, 33 pairs /day fastest 5h 23m


How many stops do they make in 5:23?


greenlion said:


> Qingdao - Shanghai Hongqiao 4 pairs / day


No Qingdao-Beijing?


greenlion said:


> D trains (250km/h)
> Beijing - Fuzhou 1 pair /day


What shall the Beijing-Fuzhou trip time be?


----------



## fragel

hmmwv said:


> At Chinese airports you have to check in at least 30 minutes ahead of the departure time, and taking security lines into consideration you better arrive at least 45 minutes to an hour early just to make sure you don't miss the flight. Also both PEK and SHA are known to have frequent delays, I would say on average the delay will be 30 minutes. I flew three times on this route and the shortest delay is 1 hour and longest 2.5 hours (they don't compensate you unless the delay is 3 hours and above). In terms of HSR, not only there is virtually no delay, but I rarely has to arrive more than *15 minutes early* at the station.


15 minutes sound too optimistic to me at this moment. maybe it works for short lines with frequent trains such as Beijing-Tianjin ICL, or if you have already bought the ticket. When online booking for all railways are available, then 15 minutes should be fine.


----------



## NCT

fragel said:


> not feasible at this moment.
> 
> think about the waiting hall at Shanghai Hongqiao or Guangzhou South during the spring festival. if all passengers were designated to wait on the platforms, there could be serious safety issues, especially when both passengers and the authorities have no experience of doing that. and you understand how people think in China, if passengers on slow conventional lines get to wait in seated waiting halls while those riding HSRs (paying higher price and all) do not have seats on the platforms, then all hell breaks loose.
> 
> in the long run, they should reduce the waiting area and replace with more shops and other facilities, especially for those stations specifically serving ICLs .


There won't be conventional trains at Shanghai Hongqiao or Guangzhou South because the signalling there is especially designed for HSRs. 

It's not about how people think, its about how MOR operates. If people have the choice of getting straight onto the platform and straight onto the next train, then they won't go red in the face and shout 'I've paid high price for this so it's my right to waste 30 minutes of my time in the waiting hall'. It's just a long-distance metro system.


----------



## fragel

NCT said:


> There won't be conventional trains at Shanghai Hongqiao or Guangzhou South because the signalling there is especially designed for HSRs.


I am talking about the seated waiting halls on the old conventional lines. 


> It's not about how people think, its about how MOR operates. If people have the choice of getting straight onto the platform and straight onto the next train, then they won't go red in the face and shout 'I've paid high price for this so it's my right to waste 30 minutes of my time in the waiting hall'. It's just a long-distance metro system.


when online booking or any reliable pre-booking is unavailable, there is no way people can get in their trains within a short amount of time, whether they can wait on the platforms or not can not change this. suppose you buy a ticket at the station for a train leaving in one hour, what are you gonna do? stand in moving crowds on the platform complaining about no seating areas, or sit on a seat in the waiting hall? 

The reason I believe that the waiting process can be eliminated or at least significantly reduced in the future is the re-introduction of the online booking system. the system was unavailable before because train tickets were so cheap(compared to buses and airlines) that the extremely high demand and ticket scalpers simply paralyzed the beta version in 2000. Now at least HSR capacity is much higher and thus the online booking system can work for HSRs, it becomes possible that you can arrive at the station right before the departure, and then make the huge waiting halls unnecessary.


----------



## NCT

fragel said:


> I am talking about the seated waiting halls on the *old conventional lines*.


Of which there is none at Shanghai Hongqiao and Guangzhou South, so we shouldn't really be thinking in the old ways when talking about the new HSR-only stations.



> when online booking or any reliable pre-booking is unavailable, there is no way people can get in their trains within a short amount of time, whether they can wait on the platforms or not can not change this. suppose you buy a ticket at the station for a train leaving in one hour, what are you gonna do? stand in moving crowds on the platform complaining about no seating areas, or sit on a seat in the waiting hall?


You don't really need online ticketing for that, you just need *flexible ticketing*. A good number of people already pre-purchase their tickets at ticket outlets, and if you allow people to buy return tickets up to 3 months before travel, you eliminate the bulk of ticket-purchase at stations even without online ticketing. Introducing anytime tickets (and off-peak anytime) and season tickets that don't (completely) restrict the train you can travel on could almost eliminate station ticket purchase altogether. Compared to conventional railway HSR has a healthy degree of capacity redundancy, so all this is entirely realistic.



> The reason I believe that the waiting process can be eliminated or at least significantly reduced in the future is the re-introduction of the online booking system. the system was unavailable before because train tickets were so cheap(compared to buses and airlines) that the extremely high demand and ticket scalpers simply paralyzed the beta version in 2000. Now at least HSR capacity is much higher and thus the online booking system can work for HSRs, it becomes possible that you can arrive at the station right before the departure, and then make the huge waiting halls unnecessary.


I certainly agree with your assessment that with the advent of HSR the amount of damage ticket touts can do will be massively reduced. Especially with ID-matching this problem is pretty much gone.

At the moment the HSR market is still in its infancy, and new stations are operating at _way below_ capacity, the massive waiting halls are unecessary. In the future by the time the market has matured, online and innovative ticketing will have matured rendering waiting halls unnecessary again. So *at no point of the HSR lifetime* do we actually need those gigantic waiting halls.


----------



## hmmwv

NCT said:


> But surely the idea of HSR is that trains are turn-up-and-go and waiting time is short enough not to NEED a seated waiting hall?! Why not simply get rid of the waiting stage altogether and and send passengers straight onto the platform? With platforms so wide I'm fairly certain there's room for a few benches and even some enclosed waiting rooms. Hell even Birmingham New Street manages that.


That would be ideal but not exactly practical on Chinese HSRs. For one CRH has standing tickets so if everyone waits on the platform people with such tickets will just jump on the first train they see. Just like subway the tickets are checked at the gate to the waiting hall, so it's possible for people with tickets of a later train to get onto the platform early.



NCT said:


> You don't really need online ticketing for that, you just need flexible ticketing. A good number of people already pre-purchase their tickets at ticket outlets, and if you allow people to buy return tickets up to 3 months before travel, you eliminate the bulk of ticket-purchase at stations even without online ticketing. Introducing anytime tickets (and off-peak anytime) and season tickets that don't (completely) restrict the train you can travel on could almost eliminate station ticket purchase altogether. Compared to conventional railway HSR has a healthy degree of capacity redundancy, so all this is entirely realistic.


It'd be nice if this can be implemented, they just need to figure out a way to manage a "black out" period during Chinese New Year.


----------



## NCT

hmmwv said:


> That would be ideal but not exactly practical on Chinese HSRs. For one CRH has standing tickets so if everyone waits on the platform people with such tickets will just jump on the first train they see. Just like subway the tickets are checked at the gate to the waiting hall, so it's possible for people with tickets of a later train to get onto the platform early.


It shouldn't be a problem if the system is advertised as a long-distance metro, which it should be. With a lot of journeys on PDLs hardly exceeding 2 hours, there should be no reason why everyone should expect a seat all of the time, though with some redundancy in the capacity most people will get a seat most of the time in any case. Even on the longer distance trains an initially standing passenger can always find a seat mid-route as they turn-around. There are people standing in tilting trains from Glasgow to London all the time, but people accept it as a small cost for flexiblility.

In any case, there can still be the option of seat reservation for anytime and season ticket holders, so in this instance you can get the best of both worlds.



> It'd be nice if this can be implemented, they just need to figure out a way to manage a "black out" period during Chinese New Year.


As long as a simple clockface timetable is still being operated, people still don't need to wait. Platforms might be a little more crowded, but I doubt they'd come close to People's Square in Shanghai.


----------



## fragel

NCT said:


> Of which there is none at Shanghai Hongqiao and Guangzhou South, so we shouldn't really be thinking in the old ways when talking about the new HSR-only stations.


all right, let me rephrase my words: passengers riding HSRs at the HSR-only stations would complain if there were no seating areas, because other passengers riding slow trains on the conventional lines can sit on seats while they had to stand. This comparison inevitably brings conventional lines into the discussion.



> You don't really need online ticketing for that, you just need *flexible ticketing*. A good number of people already pre-purchase their tickets at ticket outlets, and if you allow people to buy return tickets up to 3 months before travel, you eliminate the bulk of ticket-purchase at stations even without online ticketing. Introducing anytime tickets (and off-peak anytime) and season tickets that don't (completely) restrict the train you can travel on could almost eliminate station ticket purchase altogether. Compared to conventional railway HSR has a healthy degree of capacity redundancy, so all this is entirely realistic.


all these 'flexible ticketing' methods you listed are pre-booking. current ticket outlets are not very convenient. online ticketing works best for white collar workers who are also the main customers of HSRs, of course there could be more reliable pre-booking systems(order by phones, season tickets, railway credit/debit card used directly as a ticket etc).



> At the moment the HSR market is still in its infancy, and new stations are operating at _way below_ capacity, the massive waiting halls are unecessary.


I doubt this, which comes back to the start of our discussion: are such halls necessary *at the moment*? my point is, the platforms would be in chaos without the seated waiting halls, at least during peak time.


----------



## vincent

NCT, you have some good points of eliminating the need of waiting hall. But in this modern architectural era, I would much rather to see a huge open area "welcome" me to the station, and sit a bit in a relax environment before getting to the next train. Architecture is suppose to create an environment for you to balance between life and work. 
Also, i don't think using the platforms as mini waitng hall would work either. In transportation infrastructure design (airport terminal, subway station, train station etc), it is all about separation of people flow to maximize efficiency and minimize over-crowding. If platforms act as waiting hall, the arriving train passenger won't be happy about seeing huge crowd already at the platform trying to get into the train, while they have to fight for space to get out of the train.


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## NCT

fragel said:


> all right, let me rephrase my words: passengers riding HSRs at the HSR-only stations would complain if there were no seating areas, because other passengers riding slow trains on the conventional lines can sit on seats while they had to stand. This comparison inevitably brings conventional lines into the discussion.


But they don't *need* to wait, that's the whole point. In any case, I doubt these HSR travellers would be thinking about their poorer counterparts 10 miles away, and if they do, it'd probably take the form of 'awwwwwwww, imagine those poor darlings kettled in the waiting hall ...'



> all these 'flexible ticketing' methods you listed are pre-booking. current ticket outlets are not very convenient. online ticketing works best for white collar workers who are also the main customers of HSRs, of course there could be more reliable pre-booking systems(order by phones, season tickets, railway credit/debit card used directly as a ticket etc).


Why would current outlets be not very convenient? All it needs is more advanced purchase enabled in the software. And why should you not be able to buy a season ticket at the station or at an outlet?



> I doubt this, which comes back to the start of our discussion: are such halls necessary *at the moment*? my point is, the platforms would be in chaos without the seated waiting halls, at least during peak time.


Railway platforms would never be half as bad as metro stations.



vincent said:


> NCT, you have some good points of eliminating the need of waiting hall. But in this modern architectural era, I would much rather to see a huge open area "welcome" me to the station, and sit a bit in a relax environment before getting to the next train. Architecture is suppose to create an environment for you to balance between life and work.
> Also, i don't think using the platforms as mini waitng hall would work either. In transportation infrastructure design (airport terminal, subway station, train station etc), it is all about separation of people flow to maximize efficiency and minimize over-crowding. If platforms act as waiting hall, the arriving train passenger won't be happy about seeing huge crowd already at the platform trying to get into the train, while they have to fight for space to get out of the train.


I really doubt the average punter cares about this so called 'modern architectural era'. Travel is a means to and end, and as a means, most people want to spend as little time on it as possible. As a semi-frequent railway user, I can assure you I don't particularly want to linger in if you can help it. Of course for the first-time traveller there's a bit of novelty, but this group will increasingly be the minority as the population becomes more mobile. That 'huge open area to welcome you' becomes that inconvenient extra bit of concrete you have to walk over the second time you encounter it. When you are going on a business trip, go home for the weekend or see your cousin-who-lives-200-miles-away you don't go 'hmmm I fancy spending an extra 30 minutes sitting in the waiting room'. You might catch an odd person going 'ah' at the brick work or the train shed or whatever while power walking along the platform towards the train door, but that's about it.

The last bit about 'crowd management' - such excessive 'separation of flow' is so 60s, for those people stuck in their ways of cars and planes even if a railways station were constructed on their doorstep. These days it's all about intellegent use of space - multiplicity of use, consideration of other flows and all that, which make for much more efficient use of resources and and much more compassionate society.


----------



## vincent

NCT said:


> But they don't *need* to wait, that's the whole point. In any case, I doubt these HSR travellers would be thinking about their poorer counterparts 10 miles away, and if they do, it'd probably take the form of 'awwwwwwww, imagine those poor darlings kettled in the waiting hall ...'
> 
> 
> 
> Why would current outlets be not very convenient? All it needs is more advanced purchase enabled in the software. And why should you not be able to buy a season ticket at the station or at an outlet?
> 
> 
> 
> Railway platforms would never be half as bad as metro stations.
> 
> 
> 
> I really doubt the average punter cares about this so called 'modern architectural era'. Travel is a means to and end, and as a means, most people want to spend as little time on it as possible. As a semi-frequent railway user, I can assure you I don't particularly want to linger in if you can help it. Of course for the first-time traveller there's a bit of novelty, but this group will increasingly be the minority as the population becomes more mobile. That 'huge open area to welcome you' becomes that inconvenient extra bit of concrete you have to walk over the second time you encounter it. When you are going on a business trip, go home for the weekend or see your cousin-who-lives-200-miles-away you don't go 'hmmm I fancy spending an extra 30 minutes sitting in the waiting room'. You might catch an odd person going 'ah' at the brick work or the train shed or whatever while power walking along the platform towards the train door, but that's about it.
> 
> The last bit about 'crowd management' - such excessive 'separation of flow' is so 60s, for those people stuck in their ways of cars and planes even if a railways station were constructed on their doorstep. These days it's all about intellegent use of space - multiplicity of use, consideration of other flows and all that, which make for much more efficient use of resources and and much more compassionate society.


For the passengers that don't want to wait, they can always time themselves and arrive at the absolute last min at the waiting hall and then go through the ticket gates. 

From a feasbility standpoint, I just don't see how the train station can eliminate the waiting hall area (or whatever you want to call it), you at least need some kind of space or floor for people to pass through right after the security check points, and then moving down to the platforms. 
If you look closely, I calculated that the Shanghai Hongqiao station has about 3100 seats total at the waiting hall. It is really not that much considering there will be a train departing every few minutes when the station meet full capacity, and each train can carry around 1000 people. You just can't assume majority of the people will just arrive a few mins before the train departure time. The rotation of certain percentage of people that want to sit down, and rotate out to board the train can't happen that quickly. And again, as someone pointed out earlier, the waiting hall is needed to account for extreme over-flow condition such as the chinese new year.


----------



## vincent

By the way, separation of crowd and crowd management is definitely not 60's, at least not in infrastructure like airport terminal design. The implementation of such idea didn't even surface until the 1990's. I see countless airport's design nowadays still throw departing passengers right in the mix of arriving passengers, especially in the boarding gate areas.


----------



## fragel

NCT said:


> But they don't *need* to wait, that's the whole point.


they have to wait at the moment due to lack of convenient pre-booking systems. when they do wait, the stations need to provide seating areas for them.

I understand after a lot of things are done, it is possible that the passengers don't need to wait. but the prerequisites have not been done, not even as of today.



> Why would current outlets be not very convenient? All it needs is more advanced purchase enabled in the software. And why should you not be able to buy a season ticket at the station or at an outlet?


the additional services have nothing to do with the convenience of the agencies themselves. current agencies are inconvenient because you have to make a trip to those agencies just for tickets, and this extra trip time varies depending on the availability of agencies in different cities. if train tickets can be purchased in many convenient stores like the way you can re-charge transportation cards, then it is a whole different story. if the current agencies are so convenient, why are so many people buying tickets at the railway stations? compared to online booking, they are really not that convenient. 



> Railway platforms would never be half as bad as metro stations.


they are not comparable. average queuing time and duration at metro stations are much shorter than at (HSR) train stations. capacity issue aside, if you can make the HSR train station waiting process as short as the metro, then of course metro stations are sufficient.

again, we are talking about operation under current conditions. Ideally, things can run smoothly without glitches. In practice, they don't. It is just a much safer option for the authorities to build waiting halls. Plus, those gigantic waiting halls are almost always located at the railway hubs, and most stations along the line are quite small (for instance, HSR stations in Kunshan, Suzhou, Wuxi, Changzhou, Zhenjiang and Xuzhou generally have station house on the scale of 2000 square meters to 6000 square meters). But even for railway hubs, I hope they can also minimize the waiting period and simplify the whole boarding process, and then make good use of the spare space for future plans.


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## NCT

vincent said:


> For the passengers that don't want to wait, they can always time themselves and arrive at the absolute last min at the waiting hall and then go through the ticket gates.
> 
> From a feasbility standpoint, I just don't see how the train station can eliminate the waiting hall area (or whatever you want to call it), you at least need some kind of space or floor for people to pass through right after the security check points, and then moving down to the platforms.
> If you look closely, I calculated that the Shanghai Hongqiao station has about 3100 seats total at the waiting hall. It is really not that much considering there will be a train departing every few minutes when the station meet full capacity, and each train can carry around 1000 people. You just can't assume majority of the people will just arrive a few mins before the train departure time. The rotation of certain percentage of people that want to sit down, and rotate out to board the train can't happen that quickly. And again, as someone pointed out earlier, the waiting hall is needed to account for extreme over-flow condition such as the chinese new year.


It's not that the majority of people will arrive just before *their* train, but more that they want to catch the next train to leave *whenever* they arrive at the station. Platforms are used at waiting space for virtually all other HSR systems, Europe, Japan to name the typical examples, why is it only the Chinese who can't be trusted to manage space effectively amongst themselves? And compared to those systems Chinese platforms are huge.



fragel said:


> they have to wait at the moment due to lack of convenient pre-booking systems. when they do wait, the stations need to provide seating areas for them.
> 
> I understand after a lot of things are done, it is possible that the passengers don't need to wait. but the prerequisites have not been done, not even as of today.


But the stations will be operating way below capacity for some time to come. At the moment they are so empty they feel positively COLD.



> the additional services have nothing to do with the convenience of the agencies themselves. current agencies are inconvenient because you have to make a trip to those agencies just for tickets, and this extra trip time varies depending on the availability of agencies in different cities. if train tickets can be purchased in many convenient stores like the way you can re-charge transportation cards, then it is a whole different story. if the current agencies are so convenient, why are so many people buying tickets at the railway stations? compared to online booking, they are really not that convenient.


Ticket outlets are not that inconveniently located at all actually - there is usually one near every neighbourhood. You can pick up some railway tickets on your average shopping trip. Very few people get their tickets on the day at the station already. Also, if you introduce multi-buy or season tickets, then even if you have to get it at the station, you only get a ticket for say 1 trip in 10. So even without online ticketing a lot can be done.



> they are not comparable. average queuing time and duration at metro stations are much shorter than at (HSR) train stations. capacity issue aside, if you can make the HSR train station waiting process as short as the metro, then of course metro stations are sufficient.
> 
> again, we are talking about operation under current conditions. Ideally, things can run smoothly without glitches. In practice, they don't. It is just a much safer option for the authorities to build waiting halls. Plus, those gigantic waiting halls are almost always located at the railway hubs, and most stations along the line are quite small (for instance, HSR stations in Kunshan, Suzhou, Wuxi, Changzhou, Zhenjiang and Xuzhou generally have station house on the scale of 2000 square meters to 6000 square meters). But even for railway hubs, I hope they can also minimize the waiting period and simplify the whole boarding process, and then make good use of the spare space for future plans.


Then MAKE them comparable. There is no logic why HSR shouldn't be operated as a long-distance metro, even under current conditions.


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## SamuraiBlue

NCT said:


> It's not that the majority of people will arrive just before *their* train, but more that they want to catch the next train to leave *whenever* they arrive at the station. Platforms are used at waiting space for virtually all other HSR systems, Europe, Japan to name the typical examples, why is it only the Chinese who can't be trusted to manage space effectively amongst themselves? And compared to those systems Chinese platforms are huge.


Most seats on the Shinkansen are reserved seats.
Usually there are only three cars out of 16 that are open seats.


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## NCT

SamuraiBlue said:


> Most seats on the Shinkansen are reserved seats.
> Usually there are only three cars out of 16 that are open seats.


But they don't have huge waiting halls where people are expected to spend 30 minutes, do they?


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## SamuraiBlue

NCT said:


> But they don't have huge waiting halls where people are expected to spend 30 minutes, do they?


Why would they?
They know their seats are secured so they can arrive 5 minutes before the train leaves the station and go to their assigned seats with a boxed lunch and a can of beer in their arms.


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## Sopomon

NCT said:


> But they don't have huge waiting halls where people are expected to spend 30 minutes, do they?


After watching this thread for a year or so, I've come to realise that High Speed Rail in China is becoming an awful lot like air travel, with the stations being a long way fromt he city centre, a (relatively) difficult booking process requiring I.D. cards, the Stations themselves bearing a strong resemblance to airports.
It seems that it is the capacity, eco-friendliness and the lack of delays that are what differentiate the services from air travel.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems those who planned the HSR network have shot themselves in the foot a little with this?
Maybe a Chinese forumer can explain what motives were behind this?


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## NCT

Sopomon said:


> After watching this thread for a year or so, I've come to realise that High Speed Rail in China is becoming an awful lot like air travel, with the stations being a long way fromt he city centre, a (relatively) difficult booking process requiring I.D. cards, the Stations themselves bearing a strong resemblance to airports.
> It seems that it is the capacity, eco-friendliness and the lack of delays that are what differentiate the services from air travel.
> Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems those who planned the HSR network have shot themselves in the foot a little with this?
> Maybe a Chinese forumer can explain what motives were behind this?


Political showpiece / lucrative contracts for friends and relations / little red envelopes under the table.

Delete as appropriate.


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## foxmulder

Sopomon said:


> After watching this thread for a year or so, I've come to realise that High Speed Rail in China is becoming an awful lot like air travel, with the stations being a long way fromt he city centre, a (relatively) difficult booking process requiring I.D. cards, the Stations themselves bearing a strong resemblance to airports.
> It seems that it is the capacity, eco-friendliness and the lack of delays that are what differentiate the services from air travel.
> Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems those who planned the HSR network have shot themselves in the foot a little with this?
> Maybe a Chinese forumer can explain what motives were behind this?


So, what can be done instead of high speed trains? Slower, regular train lines?

People who are against this infrastructure project mostly belong two groups: 1) Airliners. 2) People who has political agenda. 

I cannot think any other mode of transport other than high speed rail to move people in an efficient, fast, reliable way. With all my honesty I cannot think anything bad about high speed rail. 

In high density places like China, Japan, Europe, India, some regions of USA high speed rail is the best way to move people. 

Only "negative" thing about these trains may be relatively high ticket prices which is really a null point when you see full trains running every 5 minutes with 1000 people on each.


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## Sopomon

foxmulder said:


> So, what can be done instead of high speed trains? Slower, regular train lines?
> 
> People who are against this infrastructure project mostly belong two groups: 1) Airliners. 2) People who has political agenda.
> 
> I cannot think any other mode of transport other than high speed rail to move people in an efficient, fast, reliable way. With all my honesty I cannot think anything bad about high speed rail.
> 
> In high density places like China, Japan, Europe, India, some regions of USA high speed rail is the best way to move people.
> 
> Only "negative" thing about these trains may be relatively high ticket prices which is really a null point when you see full trains running every 5 minutes with 1000 people on each.


I think I have come across a little wrong.. I am entirely for the construction of HSR where appropriate, what I was questioning was the how the Chinese government chose to implement it, with the points I mentioned in the previous post.


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## Swede

foxmulder said:


> So, what can be done instead of high speed trains? Slower, regular train lines?


Slower, regular trains have their uses, I'm sure we can all agree. But the point he was making was not that HSR is bad, but rather that the stations are poorly placed and seem to function far too much like airports with complicated check-ins and such. Look at Tokyo and Paris: the HSR doesn't end outside the city with a subway line connecting into the city, the HSR there stops right in the thick of it!


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## hmmwv

Sopomon said:


> After watching this thread for a year or so, I've come to realise that High Speed Rail in China is becoming an awful lot like air travel, with the stations being a long way fromt he city centre, a (relatively) difficult booking process requiring I.D. cards, the Stations themselves bearing a strong resemblance to airports.
> It seems that it is the capacity, eco-friendliness and the lack of delays that are what differentiate the services from air travel.
> Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems those who planned the HSR network have shot themselves in the foot a little with this?
> Maybe a Chinese forumer can explain what motives were behind this?


They build stations long way from city center because there is no space in the city center left, and even if they do the land acquisition cost is way too high. Another motive is to trigger new developments in the outskirts of the city, creating satellite towns in the suburb to channel the population away from city center. The ID requirement is to deter ticket tout that's rampant at railway stations. The stations are huge for crowd control reasons during peak travel season. Besides the fact that new stations are almost as far away from city center as airports, I don't see any problem with the latter two characteristics.


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## fragel

SamuraiBlue said:


> To be fair most stations do have waiting areas but they are created as cafes, eatery, barbershop, etc. any place to kill time.
> Look at the newly renovated Shinagawa station, they have a department store within the station *AFTER* entering the ticket gate.:nuts:


that is what I am talking about, after the seating areas serve the current purposes, they can be converted into commercial areas.


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## fragel

NCT said:


> Also, is anyone else bothered by the fact that only women work as train crew?


just like flight stewards, train attendants are mostly young ladies in China. I think it is due to culture of the Chinese service industry, plus there is a large pool of candidates from which you can select. there are male staff in the dining cars though. train drivers and on-board technicians are almost always male.


----------



## Geography

The chart comparing the HSR with planes ignores the fact that the train stops at a dozen cities along the way, picking up and dropping off passengers. A passenger in Nanjing can travel to Tianjin by HSR, never touching the line's namesakes. It's like a hub-and-spoke transportation system along a single line. I would like to see a study comparing the efficiency (however you define efficiency, maybe cost effectiveness) of establishing a plane system that reaches all the possible combinations of Point A--Point B with this HSR line.


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## Smooth Indian

Geography said:


> The chart comparing the HSR with planes ignores the fact that the train stops at a dozen cities along the way, picking up and dropping off passengers. A passenger in Nanjing can travel to Tianjin by HSR, never touching the line's namesakes. It's like a hub-and-spoke transportation system along a single line. I would like to see a study comparing the efficiency (however you define efficiency, maybe cost effectiveness) of establishing a plane system that reaches all the possible combinations of Point A--Point B with this HSR line.


My point exactly. A long HSR train run actually accounts for a number journey combinations large and small. This is simply not possible in an airplane. And I think this is where HSR is also more efficient and attractive than domestic air travel. Someone needs to tell the the anti-HSR guys this fact.


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## ANR

*Beijing to Shanghai speed to hit 350km/h*



fragel said:


> at least it gives us some hope.
> 
> btw, could you give us the link to the article? thx.


The link to the article "Beijing to Shanghai speed to hit 350km/h" is:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2011-06/16/content_12713214.htm


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## Attus

hmmwv said:


> we are talking about major HSR stations, which requires a huge space, I don't know any major cities in China that can just clear out such an large space in the downtown area. In addition you have to have HSR lines going into the city, so that also require the space to do so. People are also going to complain about noise and other negative affects by the line


Correct. That's why in some cases these lines have been built underground. I Chuna can build several subway lines, one of them could be the one for HSR


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## chornedsnorkack

*Speeding back up*

Should 200 km/h trains run on 350 km/h lines? They would affect the capacity of 300 km/h trains.

Would the railway capacity be damaged if the trains of 250 km/h and 300 km/h were replaced with trains of, say, 280 km/h and 350 km/h? How much more expensive would 280 km/h be compared to 250 km/h trains?


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## SamuraiBlue

chornedsnorkack said:


> Should 200 km/h trains run on 350 km/h lines? They would affect the capacity of 300 km/h trains.
> 
> Would the railway capacity be damaged if the trains of 250 km/h and 300 km/h were replaced with trains of, say, 280 km/h and 350 km/h? How much more expensive would 280 km/h be compared to 250 km/h trains?


Although I believe the figures are completely arbitrary, with difference in speed the amount of energy consumption and required amount of maintenance will be different dictated by laws of physics.


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## Pansori

NCT said:


> Stations don't need to be right in the middle of the town, but should be just on the edge of the centre, a short-hop bus-ride or 2-5 metro stops to most CBDs.


True... but that is if you know exactly where the center is or where it will be in another 20 years. Otherwise it may get a little tricky. European logic of 19th century transport planning shall not be applied there. It's long-gone past and history. The fact that some cities in Europe and elsewhere still work as museums with their planning peculiarities is not a guide to follow.




> Also, is anyone else bothered by the fact that only women work as train crew?


I think this is great. I would be bothered if all (or most) of onboard crew would be _men_. Actually it happened to me once with, I think, Kuwait Airlines... it was the worst in-flight service by the worst airline I have ever been on. It's a bit like having ice cream with pepper instead of caramel or strawberry jam.


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## 33Hz

Actually historically it was exactly the same here. The main London termini were on the edge of the city, which then grew around them. Many provincial towns had stations on the edge and either grew or moved around them.


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## simhks

Shenzhen North Station Pass By on Longhua Line


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## fragel

The current weather is the best promotional agency for Beijing-Shanghai HSR against flights.

Reporters traveled by air and train to compare the real traveling time between Beijing and Shanghai, and here are two experiments:

1. Shanghai to Beijing

Ms. Gu: HSR @09:00. She left office at 08:15 to Hongqiao Railway Station. Train departed at 09:00, arrived in Beijing South at 13:55 on time. 

Mr. Ma: flight scheduled @08:55. He arrived at the Hongqiao Airport at 07:50, but was told that the 08:55 flight was canceled due to bad weather. At 10:30, he was switched to a 12:00 flight. Plane was still on the ground at 12:10. He finally arrived at Tian'anmen Square at 16:30, but did not find Ms. Gu on the square, because she had waited for too long and then decided to visit the national museum.

2. Beijing to Shanghai

Both the train and the flight were scheduled @10:00. But the 10:00 flight was canceled again due to bad weather, so the flight group had to change to a 11:00 flight but it was delayed for another 35 minutes. The train group departed at 10:00 and arrived at 14:55 on time after stopping at Ji'nan and Nanjing, and they spent 37 minutes less traveling from their office to People's Square in Shanghai.


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## fragel

According to Ms. Gu in the report, cellphone signal and 3G wifi connection were pretty poor on Beijing-Shanghai HSR, that is something needs to be addressed.


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## SamuraiBlue

fragel said:


> The current weather is the best promotional agency for Beijing-Shanghai HSR against flights.
> 
> Reporters traveled by air and train to compare the real traveling time between Beijing and Shanghai, and here are two experiments:
> 
> 1. Shanghai to Beijing
> 
> Ms. Gu: HSR @09:00. She left office at 08:15 to Hongqiao Railway Station. Train departed at 09:00, arrived in Beijing South at 13:55 on time.
> 
> Mr. Ma: flight scheduled @08:55. He arrived at the Hongqiao Airport at 07:50, but was told that the 08:55 flight was canceled due to bad weather. At 10:30, he was switched to a 12:00 flight. Plane was still on the ground at 12:10. He finally arrived at Tian'anmen Square at 16:30, but did not find Ms. Gu on the square, because she had waited for too long and then decided to visit the national museum.
> 
> 2. Beijing to Shanghai
> 
> Both the train and the flight were scheduled @10:00. But the 10:00 flight was canceled again due to bad weather, so the flight group had to change to a 11:00 flight but it was delayed for another 35 minutes. The train group departed at 10:00 and arrived at 14:55 on time after stopping at Ji'nan and Nanjing, and they spent 37 minutes less traveling from their office to People's Square in Shanghai.


Out of curiosity, what kind of weather are they talking about that will ground a plane?


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## fragel

strong wind and heavy thunderstorms.
pretty common during this season.


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## Fan Railer

First vids from Beijing-Shanghai Highspeed Railway. Enjoy:


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## NCT

Pansori said:


> True... but that is if you know exactly where the center is or where it will be in another 20 years. Otherwise it may get a little tricky. European logic of 19th century transport planning shall not be applied there. It's long-gone past and history. The fact that some cities in Europe and elsewhere still work as museums with their planning peculiarities is not a guide to follow.


Cities develop with _patterns_. Even for fast developing cities like Shenzhen, underneath the seemingly uniformly chaotic exterior, you can always find an underlying Burgess-Hoyt hybrid pattern; and while European cities may _look_ like museums, they cater for modern economic needs surprisingly well. These are not things one could understand from 5-day phototrips.

New developments cluster and expand around the traditional core in concentric rings, and that's dictated by the way infrastructure develops. Take contemporary Shanghai for example, (old) Huangpu district has always been the business centre in its 200-year history. New CBDs that popped up in the last 20-30 years like Lujiazui, Shanghai Station, Xujiahui, Jing'an Temple, all form a ring around Huangpu, while Huangpu itself has always grown in importance and prestige. That's why new stations should be as close to the old centre as reasonably possible, so it can adequately serve it and ALL the surrounding future developments, not just ONE on one side.



> I think this is great. I would be bothered if all (or most) of onboard crew would be _men_. Actually it happened to me once with, I think, Kuwait Airlines... it was the worst in-flight service by the worst airline I have ever been on. It's a bit like having ice cream with pepper instead of caramel or strawberry jam.


That's the worst kind of sexist attitude. Why should the gender of train/air crew affect the standard of service?! Why should people's jobs and careers be dictated by their gender?


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## Pansori

NCT said:


> Cities develop with _patterns_. Even for fast developing cities like Shenzhen, underneath the seemingly uniformly chaotic exterior, you can always find an underlying Burgess-Hoyt hybrid pattern; and while European cities may _look_ like museums, they cater for modern economic needs surprisingly well. These are not things one could understand from 5-day phototrips.


Indeed. It's the maps and plans that help to understand it. Therefore I suggest to look at some. Also, living in some places (e.g. London) helps to understand how _not to_ develop a city in the 21st century. Chinese are doing damn good with their urban developments over the past 10 years or so. They are not trying to copy or "adapt" the over-romanticized postmodern ideas from Europe or America but instead go for practical and efficient urban planning which serves the needs of the most of the society and not just "anti-this", "anti-that" or real estate development companies. It may not appeal to those who think that by making streets narrower and banning cars the city will become more humane and friendly, but it's what will make Chinese cities by far the best, most efficiently and practically prapared to serve their purpose in the 21st century. Very similar development philosophy, albeit on a smaller scale, is well showcased in Singapore which is quite possibly the best planned and most efficient city on our planet.

And what exactly you mean by "patterns", say, in Shenzhen? How, for instance, Qian Hai Water City (which will effectively become SZ's main CBD, commercial and cultural area, waaaaay off the current main CBDs and commercial areas) blends in into what you call a pattern of the urban development of that city? How is Guangzhou's Beietan development blending in around the historic centers and Tianhe CBD? I just can't see how such development patters would support your point. In fact, they seem to do the opposite.







> That's the worst kind of sexist attitude. Why should the gender of train/air crew affect the standard of service?! Why should people's jobs and careers be dictated by their gender?



I don't know. Why do I prefer to see a hot and good-looking girl instead of a guy serving me? Maybe because I'm a heterosexual man? :?
Why does Singapore Airlines (arguably the best airline company in history) think the same?

Of course, I am not saying that, for instance, women, homosexual or asexual men have to share the same attitude. To everyone their own I guess. I admit I'm quite selfish in this area. All I know is that "hot girls in trains=good" and all I can hope for is that it won't change. Moreover I know most men would agree with me and especially in China.


----------



## Mika Montwald

Pansori said:


> ... ...
> I think this is great. I would be bothered if all (or most) of onboard crew would be _men_. Actually it happened to me once with, I think, Kuwait Airlines... it was the worst in-flight service by the worst airline I have ever been on. It's a bit like having ice cream with pepper instead of caramel or strawberry jam.


:lol: LOL ... having ice cream with pepper ... ... :lol:


----------



## SimFox

Geography said:


> The chart comparing the HSR with planes ignores the fact that the train stops at a dozen cities along the way, picking up and dropping off passengers. A passenger in Nanjing can travel to Tianjin by HSR, never touching the line's namesakes. It's like a hub-and-spoke transportation system along a single line. I would like to see a study comparing the efficiency (however you define efficiency, maybe cost effectiveness) of establishing a plane system that reaches all the possible combinations of Point A--Point B with this HSR line.


I've actually been on a train from Tianjin to Nanjing. Not this new one though, but CRH1. And I can tell you that when you buy ticket you place is actually reserved from Beijing. So far JingJin service coupes well with intercity traffic, so I can't imagine some people wanting to take a ride on JinHu line from BJ to TJ... Unless it is important to someone to arrive to TJ West... But it'll be interesting to see if this would take off.


----------



## NCT

Pansori said:


> Indeed. It's the maps and plans that help to understand it. Therefore I suggest to look at some. Also, living in some places (e.g. London) helps to understand how _not to_ develop a city in the 21st century. Chinese are doing damn good with their urban developments over the past 10 years or so. They are not trying to copy or "adapt" the over-romanticized postmodern ideas from Europe or America but instead go for practical and efficient urban planning which serves the needs of the most of the society and not just "anti-this", "anti-that" or real estate development companies. It may not appeal to those who think that by making streets narrower and banning cars the city will become more humane and friendly, but it's what will make Chinese cities by far the best, most efficiently and practically prapared to serve their purpose in the 21st century. Very similar development philosophy, albeit on a smaller scale, is well showcased in Singapore which is quite possibly the best planned and most efficient city on our planet.
> 
> And what exactly you mean by "patterns", say, in Shenzhen? How, for instance, Qian Hai Water City (which will effectively become SZ's main CBD, commercial and cultural area, waaaaay off the current main CBDs and commercial areas) blends in into what you call a pattern of the urban development of that city? How is Guangzhou's Beietan development blending in around the historic centers and Tianhe CBD? I just can't see how such development patters would support your point. In fact, they seem to do the opposite.


Whenever you see the term _CBD_ bandied about for any new development, the word _hype_ should come into one's mind immediately. Behind the scenes the traditional business districts are undergoing even more substantial transformation, with individual projects being able to take off without any media hype. The traditional central areas would still dwarf all the 'new' stuff any day.

Yes some cities will develop more sporadically than others, but when you have the old centre completely ripped apart or abandoned without any asset maintained or built upon, there is something seriously wrong with the planning. Also, Shenzhen really isn't the best urban planning model, the fact that you couldn't even so much as find an ice cream parlour on your tour should have sounded some alarm bells. Thankfully, most cities along the Shanghai - Beijing corridor are to some degree continuing on a more traditional approach, and I very much urge you to visit some 'real' cities and towns to see what really actually _is_ Chinese.

There is nothing over-romanticised or idealistic about _most_ European city planning. Shenzhen has arguably much 'better' roads than Shanghai, and as a result, Shenzhen's car ownership at 10% is twice that of Shanghai (5%), yet Shenzhen's traffic problems are far worse. Within the next decade, probably around 20-40% of people will be able to own cars, and there's absolutely no way road capacity can double or quardruple. So, to serve the needs of _most_ people, there is no choice but to adopt a walking+public transport strategy, and the convenience and safety of pedestrians rely on low car traffic at slow speeds, and that's why you _have to_ wage a war against motorists. Shenzhen's Shen'nan Avenue is a nightmare for pedestrian and public transport users as crossing points are 1-km apart, so instead of taking a 2-minute walk across the road, people just take their car and do a 5-minute detour, _to somewhere just across the road_. Making streets pedestrian friendly DOES mean cars have to make _substantial concessions_, and that's the rational, logical and practical thing to do.

In short, there are reasons why the traditional approach works better.



> I don't know. Why do I prefer to see a hot and good-looking girl instead of a guy serving me? Maybe because I'm a heterosexual man? :?
> Why does Singapore Airlines (arguably the best airline company in history) think the same?
> 
> Of course, I am not saying that, for instance, women, homosexual or asexual men have to share the same attitude. To everyone their own I guess. I admit I'm quite selfish in this area. All I know is that "hot girls in trains=good" and all I can hope for is that it won't change. Moreover I know most men would agree with me and especially in China.


Are you also making the assumption then, that only men travel on HSR?


----------



## fragel

*Beijing-Shanghai HSR test ride*

blog by 梁铭


Beijing South Railway Station



















Automatic ticketing machines (tickets for Beijing-Shanghai HSR currently unavailable)



















Ticketing windows










Train (CRH380A) being cleaned before boarding 



















Attendant










Beijing-Shanghai HSR total length: 1318 km, or 824 miles (approximately the distance between NYC and Chicago).

2nd class (RMB 555 or $86)










1st class (RMB 935 or $144)










Business class (RMB 1750 or $270)










Dining car










Restroom










Personal tv in business class










Top speed










Drivers and technicians










Journalists onboard



















Lunch 










Train conductor










Hongqiao station staff


----------



## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> So, to serve the needs of _most_ people, there is no choice but to adopt a walking+public transport strategy, and the convenience and safety of pedestrians rely on low car traffic at slow speeds, and that's why you _have to_ wage a war against motorists. Shenzhen's Shen'nan Avenue is a nightmare for pedestrian and public transport users as crossing points are 1-km apart, so instead of taking a 2-minute walk across the road, people just take their car and do a 5-minute detour, _to somewhere just across the road_. Making streets pedestrian friendly DOES mean cars have to make _substantial concessions_, and that's the rational, logical and practical thing to do.


How about creating a pedestrian traffic network on a separate level?


----------



## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> How about creating a pedestrian traffic network on a separate level?


It doesn't work. Footbridges and tunnels are expensive, and you also need either ramps that take up acres of room, or expensive lifts that break down half the time, though what usually happens is that the mobility impaired are forgotten altogether. Due to the absence of business activities like shops or restaurants, the bridges and tunnels become a haven of crime and begging, rendering the environment totally repulsive, forcing more people onto their cars.

Pedestrians belong on the surface where there's opportunity for multiplicity of land-use to provide 'eyes'.


----------



## hmmwv

Pansori said:


> I don't know. Why do I prefer to see a hot and good-looking girl instead of a guy serving me? Maybe because I'm a heterosexual man? :?
> Why does Singapore Airlines (arguably the best airline company in history) think the same?
> 
> Of course, I am not saying that, for instance, women, homosexual or asexual men have to share the same attitude. To everyone their own I guess. I admit I'm quite selfish in this area. All I know is that "hot girls in trains=good" and all I can hope for is that it won't change. Moreover I know most men would agree with me and especially in China.


LOL me too I would prefer girls instead of guys. In fact the first time I saw male flight attendent on United I was surprised. :lol:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> Due to the absence of business activities like shops or restaurants, the bridges and tunnels become a haven of crime and begging, rendering the environment totally repulsive, forcing more people onto their cars.


How about balcony fronting second floor shops and restaurants?


----------



## Simfan34

Beautiful train. No plane can dream of matching it. But I see the speed cuts have hit hard. $85? That ought to be a lot for China.


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## stoneybee

Simfan34 said:


> Beautiful train. No plane can dream of matching it. But I see the speed cuts have hit hard. $85? That ought to be a lot for China.


I am not sure whether you are kidding or not, but how many people in west today actually still think $85 is a lot of money in China these days, really.


----------



## Geography

I like the points NCT is making.


> It doesn't work. Footbridges and tunnels are expensive, and you also need either ramps that take up acres of room, or expensive lifts that break down half the time, though what usually happens is that the mobility impaired are forgotten altogether. Due to the absence of business activities like shops or restaurants, the bridges and tunnels become a haven of crime and begging, rendering the environment totally repulsive, forcing more people onto their cars.


I would like to add that adding footbridges or tunnel forces pedestrians on long detours and many stairs that are tedious for people carrying groceries, the elderly, or disabled. Make cars go through tunnels and over bridges and make pedestrian pathing as level as possible. Whole streets can be sunken 20 feet below ground level. This would also reduce noise.


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## NCT

stoneybee said:


> I am not sure whether you are kidding or not, but how many people in west today actually still think $85 is a lot of money in China these days, really.


It's still one week to half a month of wages for most.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Geography said:


> I would like to add that adding footbridges or tunnel forces pedestrians on long detours and many stairs that are tedious for people carrying groceries, the elderly, or disabled. Make cars go through tunnels and over bridges and make pedestrian pathing as level as possible. Whole streets can be sunken 20 feet below ground level. This would also reduce noise.


Although lowering the street grade by cutting means a lot of earth-moving plus the tunnel must be drained and covered.

Making pedestrian pathing as level as possible could be done by building a continuous balcony 15...20 feet above ground level. If balconies are continuous, an useful place to be (because of 2nd floor restaurant and shop fronts opening there) and connected to the balcony across the street by frequent and level footbridges, then there are less detours. If you already are at the balcony, then a footbridge is always open and more convenient than same level zebra or traffic lights.


----------



## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> Although lowering the street grade by cutting means a lot of earth-moving plus the tunnel must be drained and covered.
> 
> Making pedestrian pathing as level as possible could be done by building a continuous balcony 15...20 feet above ground level. If balconies are continuous, an useful place to be (because of 2nd floor restaurant and shop fronts opening there) and connected to the balcony across the street by frequent and level footbridges, then there are less detours. If you already are at the balcony, then a footbridge is always open and more convenient than same level zebra or traffic lights.


If it could realistically be done, I'm sure it would have in most places. Different buildings have different floor heights, and I'm not sure you can retrospectively add balconies without pillars. Also, this doesn't solve the problem of those who need to take the bus from the bus stop across the road.

But, we digress.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Returning from the digression.

Considering that TGV and AVE have been opened recently and France and Spain have not experienced mass population movement since, they are not good examples.

The example relevant to China seems to be Shinkansen of Japan. Quite a lot of economic growth after 1964.

Tokyo, Nagoya and Kyoto brought Shinkansen into existing slow railway stations.

Shin-Yokohama was built in a quite rural area on the crossing of little used Yokohama railway, 6100 m from Tokaido main line at Higashi-Kanagawa station, and 7900 m from Yokohama station.

Shin-Osaka was built on the Tokaido main line, 3800 m from Osaka station and 700 m from Higashi-Yodogawa station.

How much have the surroundings of Shin-Osaka and Shin-Yokohama developed since?


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## fragel

Simfan34 said:


> Beautiful train. No plane can dream of matching it. But I see the speed cuts have hit hard. $85? That ought to be a lot for China.


In eastern China, $85 is about half of the monthly minimum salary, about 1/5-1/4 of the monthly salary of a migrant worker, about 1/9-1/8 of a high speed train attendant's monthly salary, about 1/11-1/10 of an average white collar worker(educated professional)'s monthly salary in Shanghai, about 1/20-1/19 of the high speed train driver's monthly salary. Statistics also show that there are 5.4 million people in Beijing categorized as 'middle class' in 2010, which has an average monthly salary of $900 per capita. 

you can say a $85 ride isn't cheap considering the average income level. But for its targeted customers, it is lower than expectation.


----------



## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> Returning from the digression.
> 
> Considering that TGV and AVE have been opened recently and France and Spain have not experienced mass population movement since, they are not good examples.
> 
> The example relevant to China seems to be Shinkansen of Japan. Quite a lot of economic growth after 1964.
> 
> Tokyo, Nagoya and Kyoto brought Shinkansen into existing slow railway stations.
> 
> Shin-Yokohama was built in a quite rural area on the crossing of little used Yokohama railway, 6100 m from Tokaido main line at Higashi-Kanagawa station, and 7900 m from Yokohama station.
> 
> Shin-Osaka was built on the Tokaido main line, 3800 m from Osaka station and 700 m from Higashi-Yodogawa station.
> 
> How much have the surroundings of Shin-Osaka and Shin-Yokohama developed since?


Osaka's central business districts of Umeda, Shinsaibashi, Namba etc roughly span the three wards of Kito, Chuo and Naniwa, and Osaka Station at Umeda marks the north end of CBD. There are also some secondary business districts around Osaka Castle. Shin-Osaka is only a short-hop on the JR-Kyoto from Umeda, which is certainly acceptable for a city 20-30km in radius and of 8 million people (prefecture). Even so, while the areas surrounding Shin-Osaka are certainly urbanised, there is very little that's of CBD calibre.


----------



## krulstaartje

fragel said:


> In eastern China, $85 is about half of the monthly minimum salary, about 1/5-1/4 of the monthly salary of a migrant worker, about 1/9-1/8 of a high speed train attendant's monthly salary, about 1/11-1/10 of an average white collar worker(educated professional)'s monthly salary in Shanghai, about 1/20-1/19 of the high speed train driver's monthly salary. Statistics also show that there are 5.4 million people in Beijing categorized as 'middle class' in 2010, which has an average monthly salary of $900 per capita.
> 
> you can say a $85 ride isn't cheap considering the average income level. But for its targeted customers, it is lower than expectation.


For comparison, my $100 Amsterdam - London journey by rail is also about 1/20 of the average Dutch white collar worker's after-tax salary.


----------



## solowoo

NCT said:


> If it could realistically be done, I'm sure it would have in most places. Different buildings have different floor heights, and I'm not sure you can retrospectively add balconies without pillars. Also, this doesn't solve the problem of those who need to take the bus from the bus stop across the road.


For your information, in Hong Kong it is indeed possible to walk a long distance, from the seaside to the hillside or from the west end to the east end for say 20 minutes, without crossing a street.










which, by the way, is only an example. Similar footbridge/tunnel systems are being adopted in other commercial or even residential districts.

It does require some planning, but not impossible.


----------



## cbz

NCT said:


> If it could realistically be done, I'm sure it would have in most places. Different buildings have different floor heights, and I'm not sure you can retrospectively add balconies without pillars. Also, this doesn't solve the problem of those who need to take the bus from the bus stop across the road.
> 
> But, we digress.


it is doable, some cities in northwest of USA have skyway to connect building of each block. Minneapolis has skyway to connect almost all the downtown areas


----------



## stoneybee

krulstaartje said:


> For comparison, my $100 Amsterdam - London journey by rail is also about 1/20 of the average Dutch white collar worker's after-tax salary.


For the HSR's target customer group, the ratio will also hold true for Chinese and that is a huge market by comparison with other countries. Also, people's personal income tends to be greatly understated in China - there are a lot of "grey income" or "invisible income" that never gets captured by official stats. I am not talking abou the super rich or officials here. I do mean your average citizen Joe too.

Average or Per Capita does not work for China when it comes to understanding people's pure purchasing power.


----------



## NCT

stoneybee said:


> For the HSR's target customer group, the ratio will also hold true for Chinese and that is a huge market by comparison with other countries. Also, people's personal income tends to be greatly understated in China - there are a lot of "grey income" or "invisible income" that never gets captured by official stats. I am not talking abou the super rich or officials here. I do mean your average citizen Joe too.
> 
> Average or Per Capita does not work for China when it comes to understanding people's pure purchasing power.


I think you are over-estimating the Chinese Joe Average somewhat. The truth is there is huge income inequality in China, and grey income is only possible for those with 'connections'. Although the prices are reasonable for HSR's target group, there *is* a large group of people who are left considerably squeezed, who used to have the option of more green-skins.

Now, the response to this problem doesn't need to be bashing HSR to death. There can be a transition period where an old green-skin timetable runs alongside the new HSR timetable for a while, and as more high-speed rolling stock in put in place, advance-purchase off-peak tickets can be priced at 'bargain' levels so the low-income groups don't lose out.


----------



## NCT

solowoo said:


> For your information, in Hong Kong it is indeed possible to walk a long distance, from the seaside to the hillside or from the west end to the east end for say 20 minutes, without crossing a street.
> 
> which, by the way, is only an example. Similar footbridge/tunnel systems are being adopted in other commercial or even residential districts.
> 
> It does require some planning, but not impossible.


Thanks for that. How well does the footbridge network utilise lifts and escalators inside buildings for access, or does it have its own? It is an 'exceptional' case though, and only realistic in few cases. Most of the streets in this area, and for the matter in the entire Hong Kong, are still very walkable. So my original point about having to keep private car usage right down still stands, and indeed private car usage in Hong Kong IS extremely low.


----------



## vincent

fragel said:


> In eastern China, $85 is about half of the monthly minimum salary, about 1/5-1/4 of the monthly salary of a migrant worker, about 1/9-1/8 of a high speed train attendant's monthly salary, about 1/11-1/10 of an average white collar worker(educated professional)'s monthly salary in Shanghai, about 1/20-1/19 of the high speed train driver's monthly salary. Statistics also show that there are 5.4 million people in Beijing categorized as 'middle class' in 2010, which has an average monthly salary of $900 per capita.
> 
> you can say a $85 ride isn't cheap considering the average income level. But for its targeted customers, it is lower than expectation.


wow, the high speed driver's salary is double of educated professionals, that's surprising. I guess the high speed driver's salary is similar to an airline pilot in China?


----------



## vincent

By the way, no words on the ticket sales yet for Beijing-Shanghai high speed line? If the service will start on the 28th, the ticket sales should have been started yesterday (1 week earlier).

Also, what happened to the news from long time ago that China will try to break the world record of 574km/h before the opening of the Beijing-Shanghai line? i guess it has been prosponed now?


----------



## cbz

NCT said:


> I think you are over-estimating the Chinese Joe Average somewhat. The truth is there is huge income inequality in China, and grey income is only possible for those with 'connections'. Although the prices are reasonable for HSR's target group, there *is* a large group of people who are left considerably squeezed, who used to have the option of more green-skins.
> 
> Now, the response to this problem doesn't need to be bashing HSR to death. There can be a transition period where an old green-skin timetable runs alongside the new HSR timetable for a while, and as more high-speed rolling stock in put in place, advance-purchase off-peak tickets can be priced at 'bargain' levels so the low-income groups don't lose out.


No, he is not over-estimating. If you asked people you known back in china about how much they make monthly, they often tell you 3-4 thousands normally. They don't count in various bonus and allowance since it is not predictable. You cannot apply income concept in western countries in china


----------



## NCT

cbz said:


> No, he is not over-estimating. If you asked people you known back in china about how much they make monthly, they often tell you 3-4 thousands normally. They don't count in various bonus and allowance since it is not predictable. You cannot apply income concept in western countries in china


Counting various bonuses and allowance, the figure still wouldn't usually exceed 5000, and this is the typical middle-class take-home pay. It's only people in for example health-care (doctors who take bonuses from pharmaceutical companies) and some education sectors (instrumental teachers for example) who make loads 'unofficially', or those who control government coffers. Those employed in the private sector, especially foreign-owned companies don't really have any grey income at all. Beneath that there are still masses of manual workers who barely make 3000 a month.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> Although the prices are reasonable for HSR's target group, there *is* a large group of people who are left considerably squeezed, who used to have the option of more green-skins.
> 
> Now, the response to this problem doesn't need to be bashing HSR to death. There can be a transition period where an old green-skin timetable runs alongside the new HSR timetable for a while,


What speed group is meant with "green-skins"?


----------



## cbz

NCT said:


> Counting various bonuses and allowance, the figure still wouldn't usually exceed 5000, and this is the typical middle-class take-home pay. It's only people in for example health-care (doctors who take bonuses from pharmaceutical companies) and some education sectors (instrumental teachers for example) who make loads 'unofficially', or those who control government coffers. Those employed in the private sector, especially foreign-owned companies don't really have any grey income at all. Beneath that there are still masses of manual workers who barely make 3000 a month.


For those lower class, it might be true. But for *those typical middle-class*, the income they claim is way less than their actually income. 

I have applied a job of a foreign-owned company in BJ few years ago, lunch, transportation, gym membership, dressing allowance account for almost 20% after-tax income


----------



## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> What speed group is meant with "green-skins"?


It's just a by-word for traditional trains that are usually painted green.



cbz said:


> For those lower class, it might be true. But for *those typical middle-class*, the income they claim is way less than their actually income.
> 
> I have applied a job of a foreign-owned company in BJ few years ago, lunch, transportation, gym membership, dressing allowance account for almost 20% after-tax income


Ah, so those perks only account for 20%, so total income is not really _way_ above what's claimed, is it? When you said people claimed 3000-4000, and I suggested about 5000, I wasn't far off was I, well in fact quite generous with my estimations. And I think you are confusing typical middle-class with rather upper-middle-class too.


----------



## cbz

NCT said:


> It's just a by-word for traditional trains that are usually painted green.
> 
> Ah, so those perks only account for 20%, so total income is not really _way_ above what's claimed, is it? When you said people claimed 3000-4000, and I suggested about 5000, I wasn't far off was I, well in fact quite generous with my estimations. And I think you are confusing typical middle-class with rather upper-middle-class too.


Come on! you just said "foreign-owned companies * don't really have any grey income at all *". 

I guess you never have experience of working or opening a business in china

As for private or state-own companies, it is another story, according to my own working experience and those people i know, grey income accounts for at least half income of those working in state-own company. (Just think about apartments sold by state-own companies to their employees at lower market price.)

In small private companies, they will do as much as possible to have minimum income on paper since they try not paying any income tax.

Forget about so called middle class or upper middle class, let's talk about those millions working in sweat factory like Foxconn. Overtime paid by cash and free accommodation (even sometime condition is horrible) and meals can be equivalent to their namely income


----------



## solowoo

NCT said:


> Thanks for that. How well does the footbridge network utilise lifts and escalators inside buildings for access, or does it have its own? It is an 'exceptional' case though, and only realistic in few cases. Most of the streets in this area, and for the matter in the entire Hong Kong, are still very walkable. So my original point about having to keep private car usage right down still stands, and indeed private car usage in Hong Kong IS extremely low.


There are lifts and escalators both inside and outside buildings. When available, the "pedestrian level" are preferred to the ground by most people.

I do agree to minimizing private car use, but then developing a walkable city with a separated pedestrian level is more a complementary than a competing idea.


----------



## fragel

another Beijing-Shanghai HSR test ride blog by 陆岩

link:
http://caidan58.blog.163.com/blog/static/5103078520115190384410/?tupian

high speed train passing through Beijing Yongdingmen area (with the forbidden city in the far background):


----------



## fragel

more test ride experience

by 古道西风蓝马 at photography forum fengniao.com (click to see more pics)

G1 departing at 09:00, Beijing South Station










Intermediate stop at Nanjing South Station










Arrival at Shanghai Hongqiao Station










Return from Shanghai, G4










Train driver of G4


----------



## NCT

cbz said:


> Come on! you just said "foreign-owned companies * don't really have any grey income at all *".
> 
> I guess you never have experience of working or opening a business in china
> 
> As for private or state-own companies, it is another story, according to my own working experience and those people i know, grey income accounts for at least half income of those working in state-own company. (Just think about apartments sold by state-own companies to their employees at lower market price.)
> 
> In small private companies, they will do as much as possible to have minimum income on paper since they try not paying any income tax.
> 
> Forget about so called middle class or upper middle class, let's talk about those millions working in sweat factory like Foxconn. Overtime paid by cash and free accommodation (even sometime condition is horrible) and meals can be equivalent to their namely income


Looking at my own family and friends the situation seems a bit less rosy than you make out. When they say '到手x' they really mean '到手x', that's including all the bonuses and saved travel expenses. Those perks you listed earlier are not uncommon in the west either, so in terms of comparisons I would hardly call them 'grey income' as an exclusive Chinese thing. As for employees of state-owned companies who can boast '工资基本不动', they are just a priviledged few who are not representitave of the entire demographics at all.


----------



## foxmulder

fragel said:


>


Look at this scene..  juicy..


----------



## chornedsnorkack

The huge halls inside and plazas outside the stations like Hongqiao and Beijing South mean long walks to train.

Are these stations easy to reach by private car? Or are private car passengers required to find their own parking and take public transport to the edge of the pedestrian plaza?

What is the position of the 21 intermediate stations now under construction?


----------



## Mika Montwald

*migrant construction worker * sell out despite departures every 10 or 15 minutes*

Source: NEW YORK Times

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/business/global/23rail.html




> *High-Speed Rail Poised to Transform China*
> 
> *By KEITH BRADSHER*
> 
> *Published: June 22, 2011 *
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> 
> ^^
> 
> Work crews of as many as 100,000 people per line have built about half of the 10,000-mile
> network in just six years, in many cases ahead of schedule — including the
> *Beijing-to-Shanghai line that was not originally expected to open until next year*.
> The entire system is on course to be completed by 2020.
> 
> 
> For the United States and Europe, the implications go *beyond marveling at the pace of
> Communist-style civil engineering*.
> 
> :banana2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because of this shift, plus the construction of additional freight lines, the tonnage hauled by
> China’s rail system *increased in 2010 by an amount equaling the entire freight carried last year
> by the combined rail systems of Britain, France, Germany and Poland*, according to the World Bank.
> 
> 
> ^^
> 
> Among the biggest beneficiaries of the high-speed rail system are companies that
> contribute nothing to defray its costs.
> Those would be freight shippers, which now have more exclusive use of the older rail lines, with fewer delays.
> 
> 
> 
> On the older tracks, the rail ministry has long been able to dictate that freight rates
> would subsidize passenger trains because the ministry owns those older tracks outright.
> 
> 
> 
> The new, high-speed lines — passenger trains only — are owned by joint ventures between the ministry and provincial governments.
> 
> 
> 
> That has prevented the ministry from forcing freight shippers to cross-subsidize the new high-speed services.
> As a result, passengers must pay much higher fares on the new trains than on the older ones.
> 
> 
> ^^
> 
> Already, the longer routes elsewhere appear to draw much heavier ridership.
> The trains, which typically carry 600 passengers, sometimes *sell out
> despite departures every 10 or 15 minutes, particularly on
> Fridays but sometimes even at lunchtime in the middle of the week*.
> 
> epper:
> 
> 
> 
> Zhou Junde, a *migrant construction worker* with a large red and green
> tattoo of a hawk on the right side of his neck, stood in line at the Changsha station
> on a recent Friday afternoon to buy a high-speed ticket to Guangzhou.
> 
> 
> But the next high-speed train *was entirely sold out, and so was
> the next one 10 minutes after that*. He would have to wait 30 minutes to board a train with a seat.
> 
> 
> “Sometimes,” he said, “I come several hours early to get the departure I want.”
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------



As the above story has shown, 


1) <"CRH train are running empty"> is a horsecrap argument. 


2) <"Migrant-workers can not afford to buy CRH tickets"> is also a horsecrap argument.
Keep in mind that plenty of these so-called migrant-workers are regularly gambling upward 500 RMB 
per month on playing cards on the street or in the park.
I am personally employing these kind of migrant-workers at this moment.


Off Topic:

What happen to the study of *traditional good civic behaviors* <*弟子规*> ??
:gaah:


----------



## Geography

Anyone else concerned that the train drivers do not have seatbelts? When traveling at 300 km/hr, every half second counts when it comes to emergency braking. The driver might delay just a few seconds hitting the emergency stop button knowing that doing so will most likely kill or cripple him as he brakes his legs and neck on the windshield. That few seconds delay at such high speed is dangerous.

The train driver needs to be secure in order for him to do his job effectively. No seatbelt gives his brain subconscious pause in hitting the emergency stop button.


----------



## Geography

Are the seats in first class fully swivalable? Pretty good to have them all face the windows.


----------



## foxmulder

Geography said:


> Anyone else concerned that the train drivers do not have seatbelts? When traveling at 300 km/hr, every half second counts when it comes to emergency braking. The driver might delay just a few seconds hitting the emergency stop button knowing that doing so will most likely kill or cripple him as he brakes his legs and neck on the windshield. That few seconds delay at such high speed is dangerous.
> 
> The train driver needs to be secure in order for him to do his job effectively. No seatbelt gives his brain subconscious pause in hitting the emergency stop button.



At those speeds and distances emergency brakes are done by computers connected to sensors detecting any problems. It is all automated. These trains need kilometers to stop, it is beyond to scope of human eye. When the driver sees smt it is already tooooooooo late


----------



## Smooth Indian

Geography said:


> Anyone else concerned that the train drivers do not have seatbelts? When traveling at 300 km/hr, every half second counts when it comes to emergency braking. The driver might delay just a few seconds hitting the emergency stop button knowing that doing so will most likely kill or cripple him as he brakes his legs and neck on the windshield. That few seconds delay at such high speed is dangerous.
> 
> The train driver needs to be secure in order for him to do his job effectively. No seatbelt gives his brain subconscious pause in hitting the emergency stop button.


Buddy that is a high speed train with automatic train stop and in-cab signalling; not a pick up truck.


----------



## fragel

foxmulder said:


> Definetly share your pictures here... :cheers:


we will definitely see him in the news report, and he's probably gonna be interviewed by reporters.


----------



## yaohua2000

12306.cn does only support Internet Explorer on Windows. I borrowed a Windows-running computer from someone since I only have Macs. The first tickets were put on sale 3 minutes earlier, at 08:57. I tried to book a ticket for a couple of times but didn't pay, until I got a right-side window seat. I paid ¥1750 with my credit card.

Then I went to Tianjin Railway Station to get a printed paper ticket. At 09:53, I touched "Print ticket" button at ticket machine number 002 in Tianjin Railway Station's ticket office, a couple of seconds later, the ticket machine says, "System busy, ...", soon it became "Out of Service" and a virus scanning started on the ticket machine. I changed to another ticket machine but it told me the ticket had already been printed earlier.

So I complained to a staff in the ticket office. A technician came and opened the ticket machine but nothing helps. I waited in a room in the ticket office for one hour and a half, and they contacted with the ticketing service center in Beijing. I got my printed ticket at 11:18 finally.


----------



## Mika Montwald

*SOLD OUT * SOLD OUT * SOLD OUT*

:dance:


After watching some of the BEIJING -- SHANGHAI CRH videos, ... ...
I am speculating that BEIJING -- SHANGHAI CRH lines running @ 300 km/hr will be mostly SOLD-OUT most of the time. 

When it is _running @ 380 km/hr_, it will be almost lights out for airlines company. 
In a few short years -- when it is _running @ 480 km/hr_, time to say <_ASALA VISTA Airly_>. 


-----------------------------------------------

In order to gain a more well informed perspective, please read this story below ... ...


_OFF Topic_:


BTW, in a nation that is heavily tilted towards serving the CEO and the Super Rich instead of the Main Street,
say USA for example, please read this story below ... ...


Regular Main Street people are forced to slow down when the FAT CAT Wall Street are passing by. 

hno:

My question is ... ...
Does this kneeling down towards <FAT CAT Wall Street> happen in China airspace too?



_SOURCE_: SLATE
_LINK_: http://www.slate.com/id/2297400?wpisrc=xs_wp_0001




> *Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster?*
> By Brian PalmerPosted Wednesday, June 22, 2011, at 6:40 PM ET
> 
> 
> Fuel efficiency, among other things. Commercial airlines have slowed down over the last three or four decades. Today, flying from New York to Denver takes 19 more minutes than in 1983, and a flight from Washington, D.C., to Miami takes 45 more minutes than in 1973. The primary reason for such sluggishness is the cost of fuel.
> 
> 
> By the laws of physics, the increase in drag equals the square of the increase in speed, so even a slightly faster flight requires a lot more fuel. Hiking a plane's velocity by 10 percent takes 21 percent more energy. Speeding up by 40 percent approximately doubles fuel consumption. Shorter flights can save airlines money on labor, but not enough to offset the loss in efficiency. (Fuel represents about 35 percent of the cost of a flight, whereas personnel expenses constitute 30 percent.)
> 
> 
> Fuel isn't the only reason for the slowdown. In the 1960s and 1970s, most personal and corporate planes were propeller or turbo-prop aircraft, which fly at a lower altitude than jetliners. That kept them out of the way of large commercial aircraft.
> 
> 
> :bash:
> 
> 
> Today, most bigwigs fly jets, and their gain is our loss: Not only are more planes using U.S. runways, *
> but passenger jets must reduce their airspeed when they get caught behind by a corporate CEO*.
> 
> 
> There have also been changes in the way airlines report flight times, which makes them seem longer than they actually are. When airlines started disclosing their percentage of on-time flights in the mid-1980s, *they added a few extra minutes to the scheduled times to increase their apparent punctuality*, a practice known as block padding.


----------



## NCT

fragel said:


> this is not gonna happen with freight trains sharing the same line.
> 
> the freight trains should be removed from this particular line to a separate freight line. there is no need for the freight trains to get in the city core, so the new freight line can be built in the outer circle of each city, and MoR can demolish those freight depots in downtown areas(which they can sell the plots for a lot of money or they can use for other development purpose).


The biggest capacity constraint is *speed differential*. The commuter trains would be operating at 160km/h, which freight trains can easily do. Stopping at stations might mean each commuter train takes up 2 train paths, but that's hardly a big deal if the signalling supports high frequency operation. I very much doubt that commuter services alone would warrant a separate pair of tracks, and it's much more economic to optimally _use_ track capacity than simply build build build.

The biggest problem, I would say, is the stations constructed on the wrong line. The Shanghai - Nanjing PDL is littered with small stations that should be on the classic line.


----------



## NCT

yaohua2000 said:


> 12306.cn does only support Internet Explorer on Windows. I borrowed a Windows-running computer from someone since I only have Macs. The first tickets were put on sale 3 minutes earlier, at 08:57. I tried to book a ticket for a couple of times but didn't pay, until I got a right-side window seat. I paid ¥1750 with my credit card.
> 
> Then I went to Tianjin Railway Station to get a printed paper ticket. At 09:53, I touched "Print ticket" button at ticket machine number 002 in Tianjin Railway Station's ticket office, a couple of seconds later, the ticket machine says, "System busy, ...", soon it became "Out of Service" and a virus scanning started on the ticket machine. I changed to another ticket machine but it told me the ticket had already been printed earlier.
> 
> So I complained to a staff in the ticket office. A technician came and opened the ticket machine but nothing helps. I waited in a room in the ticket office for one hour and a half, and they contacted with the ticketing service center in Beijing. I got my printed ticket at 11:18 finally.


Still some teething problems to sort out then.

￥5 for buying the ticket at the 'wrong' place ... hno:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> The PDLs are not really designed for hugh speed-differentiations, and in the case of the Shanghai - Nanjing PDL, one cannot neglect the big inter-city high-speed demand between the 6 major cities (the Beijing - Shanghai line is useless for Suzhou, Changzhou etc.).


How is it useless?

Shanghai-Beijing high speed railway does have 6 intermediate stations between Hongqiao and Nanjing South:
Kunshan South
Suzhou North
Wuxi East
Changzhou North
Danyang North
Zhenjiang South.

How often shall D and G trains stop at these stations?


NCT said:


> The current infrastructure is capable of running a 3-tier service between Shanghai and Nanjing, with perhaps minor alterations:
> 
> Shanghai - Nanjing direct using Beijing - Shanghai line;
> Shanghai - Kunshan - Suzhou - Wuxi - Changzhou - Zhenjiang - Nanjing using the PDL;


That would mean disuse of the intermediate stations of the Beijing-Shanghai line.


NCT said:


> All stops Shanghai - Suzhou; Suzhou - Changzhou; Changzhou - Nanjing using the classic line mixed in with freight.


----------



## fragel

NCT said:


> Still some teething problems to sort out then.
> 
> ￥5 for buying the ticket at the 'wrong' place ... hno:


he should not have to pay this fee if the automatic ticketing machine had printed his ticket. maybe yaohua2000 could tell us what happened regarding this extra fee.



yaohua2000 said:


> 12306.cn does only support Internet Explorer on Windows. I borrowed a Windows-running computer from someone since I only have Macs. The first tickets were put on sale 3 minutes earlier, at 08:57. I tried to book a ticket for a couple of times but didn't pay, until I got a right-side window seat. I paid ¥1750 with my credit card.
> 
> Then I went to Tianjin Railway Station to get a printed paper ticket. At 09:53, I touched "Print ticket" button at ticket machine number 002 in Tianjin Railway Station's ticket office, a couple of seconds later, the ticket machine says, "System busy, ...", soon it became "Out of Service" and a virus scanning started on the ticket machine. I changed to another ticket machine but it told me the ticket had already been printed earlier.
> 
> So I complained to a staff in the ticket office. A technician came and opened the ticket machine but nothing helps. I waited in a room in the ticket office for one hour and a half, and they contacted with the ticketing service center in Beijing. I got my printed ticket at 11:18 finally.


they should have compensated for the extra trouble and the time you wait in the office, maybe some credit or at least some souvenir, won't cost them much but the gesture would be much better. well, railway authorities and staff are known for not having such service attitude.


----------



## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> How is it useless?
> 
> Shanghai-Beijing high speed railway does have 6 intermediate stations between Hongqiao and Nanjing South:
> Kunshan South
> Suzhou North
> Wuxi East
> Changzhou North
> Danyang North
> Zhenjiang South.
> 
> How often shall D and G trains stop at these stations?
> 
> That would mean disuse of the intermediate stations of the Beijing-Shanghai line.


Those small stations on the Beijing - Shanghai line are ill located for the cities they are supposed to serve, and should be decommissioned immediately. They will never see more than a couple of trains a day and even those couple of trains will severely impact on overall line capacity. Train paths and all that.


----------



## yaohua2000

fragel said:


> he should not have to pay this fee if the automatic ticketing machine had printed his ticket. maybe yaohua2000 could tell us what happened regarding this extra fee.


Yes, I refused, and she paid the fee.



fragel said:


> they should have compensated for the extra trouble and the time you wait in the office, maybe some credit or at least some souvenir, won't cost them much but the gesture would be much better. well, railway authorities and staff are known for not having such service attitude.


Actually this time their attitude was not bad, perhaps partly because they had heard my stuck ticket was not ¥58 but ¥1750-worth. :lol:

This was also the first time I stepped into the ticket room behind the ticket windows. I waited in a sofa and they served me a couple cups of hot water.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> They will never see more than a couple of trains a day and even those couple of trains will severely impact on overall line capacity. Train paths and all that.


How do the Kodama trains on Shinkansen affect the line capacity?


----------



## mmystc

[/url] Flickr 上 JMPaul 的未命名相片[/IMG]


----------



## SamuraiBlue

chornedsnorkack said:


> How do the Kodama trains on Shinkansen affect the line capacity?


Not much since they have the same running characteristics in terms of acceleration rate, deceleration rate and speed as a Nozomi so as long as they set-up a time schedule so that the Kodama is at a station when Nozomi passes then there in no problem.


----------



## UD2

NCT said:


> Those small stations on the Beijing - Shanghai line are ill located for the cities they are supposed to serve, and should be decommissioned immediately. They will never see more than a couple of trains a day and even those couple of trains will severely impact on overall line capacity. Train paths and all that.


Those new stations are basis for new city centers to be built outside of the currently already jam packed metropolitans.

Keep in mind that even the cities with "small" stations have population of over 5 million.

This type of scheduling with faster/slower trains has been a part of China's railway network for the past 30 years. Impact will be minimal as the more frequently stoping trains will be giving way to the faster trains.

The Chinese has some of the most advanced railway traffic managment system in the world, even on conventional lines.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

I count 21 stations on Shanghai-Nanjing high speed railway between Hongqiao and Nanjing.

Kunshan South is shared with Shanghai-Beijing high speed railway.

What are the straight distances 
Suzhou-Suzhou North
Wuxi-Wuxi East
Changzhou-Changzhou North
Danyang-Danyang North
Zhenjiang-Zhenjiang South
Nanjing-Nanjing South?


----------



## yaohua2000

chornedsnorkack said:


> I count 21 stations on Shanghai-Nanjing high speed railway between Hongqiao and Nanjing.
> 
> Kunshan South is shared with Shanghai-Beijing high speed railway.
> 
> What are the straight distances
> Suzhou-Suzhou North
> Wuxi-Wuxi East
> Changzhou-Changzhou North
> Danyang-Danyang North
> Zhenjiang-Zhenjiang South
> Nanjing-Nanjing South?


Suzhou–Suzhou North: 10.6 km
Wuxi–Wuxi East: 14.5 km
Changzhou–Changzhou North: 7.8 km
Danyang–Danyang North: 7.9 km
Zhenjiang–Zhenjiang South: 7.1 km
Nanjing–Nanjing South: 13.0 km


----------



## chornedsnorkack

yaohua2000 said:


> Suzhou–Suzhou North: 10.6 km
> Wuxi–Wuxi East: 14.5 km
> Changzhou–Changzhou North: 7.8 km
> Danyang–Danyang North: 7.9 km
> Zhenjiang–Zhenjiang South: 7.1 km
> Nanjing–Nanjing South: 13.0 km


Thanks!

For comparison, as described above, Yokohama-Shin-Yokohama is 7,9 km along connecting railway, shorter in straight line.

Nanjing and Nanjing South are now connected by Nanjing Metro Line 1. It also extends beyond these stations in both ends, with total length of 46 km.

What is the distance between Nanjing and Nanjing South on Nanjing Metro line 1?

How long does Nanjing Metro take to travel Line 1 from Nanjing to Nanjing South? And is it a convenient way to reach destinations anywhere along Line 1 from whichever station the high speed train reaches?

Nanjing Metro Line 3 is said to be under construction, and also connect Nanjing and Nanjing South. When shall it open for traffic?

Does the Suzhou Metro now under construction connect Suzhou North?


----------



## gramercy

just think of these as airports


----------



## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> How do the Kodama trains on Shinkansen affect the line capacity?


Let's just compare the Tokaido Line with the Shanghai - Nanjing PDL - 

Tokaido (Tokyo - Shin Osaka): 515 km, 17 stations (about 30 km per station)
Shanghai - Nanjing: 301 km, 31 stations (about 10 km per station)

The Shanghai - Nanjing PDL is just over half as long, and has under twice many stations compared to the Tokaido.

Between Tokyo and Shin Osaka, Nozomis only stop at Tokyo, Shinagawa, Shin-Yokohoma, Nagoya, Kyoto and Shin-Osaka. Hikaris only have 2 or 3 more stops than Nozomis, so fit in quite comfortably. Every hour, there are usually about half a dozen Nozomis, 2 Hikaris and 2 Kodamas.

On the Shanghai - Nanjing PDL, there are already about half a dozen 'Nozomis' (G-trains) + 'Hikaris' (D-trains). Given the station density of the line there's no way you can operate 300km/h 'Kodomas'. Also there is scope for at least 3 all-stopping trains per hour, even 6 in the eastern sections, so it makes absolutely no sense to have the small stations on the fast line. All-stops should be 160 km/h running on the slow lines.


----------



## fragel

*Wuhan-Guangzhou HSR could be profitable next year, but speed-reduction cast uncertainty*

The report by 21cbn said that, according to its source from the railway authorities, during the first half of 2011 the ridership on Wuhan-Guangzhou HSR was about 70%, and the number of passengers exceeded the railway authorities' expectation. The fare revenue generated on Wuhan-Guangzhou HSR in the first half of this year is about 5 billion RMB, or about $770 million (for comparison, the total revenue in 2010 was about 5.2 billion RMB). Based on this trend, the railway authorities once estimated the total revenue in 2011 could reach 9 billion RMB, and thus could cover all the loan payment, operation cost and fixed asset depreciation of the year. 

However, due to speed and price reduction soon to be in effect, the expected yield might be affected. The source believes that the reduction of maintenance cost and electricity fee due to speed reduction would be very limited, and decrease in fare revenue could be greater than the cost reduction due to lowered fare and potential loss of passengers to airlines after speed reduction. It is uncertain at this point how speed reduction will affect the passenger volume.

read more (in Chinese)


----------



## chornedsnorkack

fragel said:


> However, due to speed and price reduction soon to be in effect, the expected yield might be affected. The source believes that the reduction of maintenance cost and electricity fee due to speed reduction would be very limited, and decrease in fare revenue could be greater than the cost reduction due to lowered fare and potential loss of passengers to airlines after speed reduction. It is uncertain at this point how speed reduction will affect the passenger volume.
> 
> read more (in Chinese)



Have the schedule times and ticket prices of Wuhan-Guangzhou high speed railway after 1st of July been published?


----------



## yaohua2000

Some railfans are planning to hold two iPads with former railway minister Liu Kuayue and deputy chief engineer Zhang Shuguang's photos on the first train to Shanghai Hongqiao.


----------



## fragel

^^lol, good one.

it might get too political. on the other hand, it is very rare that two Chinese officials accused of corruption still receive so much respect from fans.


----------



## fragel

chornedsnorkack said:


> Have the schedule times and ticket prices of Wuhan-Guangzhou high speed railway after 1st of July been published?


yes. I thought it was already posted. 

From Wuhan to Guangzhou: 

current G train (350km/h) 2nd class: 490 RMB; 1st class: 780RMB
after July 1st,
G train (300km/h) 2nd class: 465 RMB; 1st class: 740 RMB
D train (250km/h) 2nd class: 330 RMB; 1st class: 530 RMB

there are only two pairs of D trains between Wuhan and Guangzhou (another 2 pairs between Wuhan and Changsha) on weekdays.


----------



## fragel

Train on Shanghai-Nanjing ICL surpassing another train on Beijing-Shanghai HSR

It won't happen after July 1st any more.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjc5MjkzODEy.html


----------



## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> Let's just compare the Tokaido Line with the Shanghai - Nanjing PDL -
> 
> Tokaido (Tokyo - Shin Osaka): 515 km, 17 stations (about 30 km per station)
> Shanghai - Nanjing: 301 km, 31 stations (about 10 km per station)
> 
> The Shanghai - Nanjing PDL is just over half as long, and has under twice many stations compared to the Tokaido.


Looking for similar length stretches:
Tokyo-Nagoya on Tokaido Shinkansen, 342 km, has 11 intermediate stations (28,5 km per station)
Tokyo-Sendai on Tohoku Shinkansen, 325 km, 9 intermediate stations (32,5 km per station)
Tokyo-Niigata on Joetsu Shinkansen, 301 km, 10 intermediate stations (27 km per station)
Osaka-Hiroshima on Sanyo Shinkansen, 306 km, 10 intermediate stations (28 km per station)

6 intermediate stations on Shanghai-Beijing high speed railway between Hongqiao and Nanjing South, at about 43 km per station, is not too much.


----------



## czm3

Mika Montwald said:


> In order to gain a more well informed perspective, please read this story below ... ...
> 
> 
> _OFF Topic_:
> 
> 
> BTW, in a nation that is heavily tilted towards serving the CEO and the Super Rich instead of the Main Street,
> say USA for example, please read this story below ... ...
> 
> 
> Regular Main Street people are forced to slow down when the FAT CAT Wall Street are passing by.
> 
> hno:
> 
> My question is ... ...
> Does this kneeling down towards <FAT CAT Wall Street> happen in China airspace too?
> 
> 
> 
> _SOURCE_: SLATE
> _LINK_: http://www.slate.com/id/2297400?wpisrc=xs_wp_0001


Sorry but the slate article is simply incorrect in its assumptions. The growth in US air travel over the past 30 years is the cause of increased congestion. Reality is that private jet aircraft (while subsonic) travel a bit faster than their boeing and airbus sourced brethren. Furthermore, this jet traffic doesnt use the same altitudes as commercial traffic so the notion that a commercial airliner is stuck behind some corporate fat cat is nothing more than a feeble attempt at populism....

but I agree with you, this is completely off topic in a thread about chinese rail...


----------



## yaohua2000

fragel said:


> Train on Shanghai-Nanjing ICL surpassing another train on Beijing-Shanghai HSR
> 
> It won't happen after July 1st any more.
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjc5MjkzODEy.html


Youtube cross-post:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

fragel said:


> yes. I thought it was already posted.
> 
> From Wuhan to Guangzhou:
> 
> current G train (350km/h) 2nd class: 490 RMB; 1st class: 780RMB
> after July 1st,
> G train (300km/h) 2nd class: 465 RMB; 1st class: 740 RMB
> D train (250km/h) 2nd class: 330 RMB; 1st class: 530 RMB
> 
> there are only two pairs of D trains between Wuhan and Guangzhou (another 2 pairs between Wuhan and Changsha) on weekdays.


Thanks!

But what shall the trip times be, Guangzhou-Wuhan?


----------



## fragel

chornedsnorkack said:


> Thanks!
> 
> But what shall the trip times be, Guangzhou-Wuhan?


current G train: 3 hrs 16 mins(one stop in Changsha South) to 3 hrs 57 minutes(6 intermediate stops)
after July 1st,
G train: 3 hrs 33 mins to 4 hrs 11 mins
D train: 5 hrs 57 mins and 6 hrs 6 mins


----------



## chornedsnorkack

fragel said:


> current G train: 3 hrs 16 mins(one stop in Changsha South) to 3 hrs 57 minutes(6 intermediate stops)
> after July 1st,
> G train: 3 hrs 33 mins to 4 hrs 11 mins
> D train: 5 hrs 57 mins and 6 hrs 6 mins


Thanks - it gives the idea of the effects!

Mere 17 minute loss for express trains and 14 minutes for stopping trains!

For comparison, the fastest train on slow speed line Guangzhou to Wuhan Wuchang, T264/T265 (which goes on to Lhasa) takes 10:17, and costs RMB137 for seat, RMB236...RMB253 for hard sleeper, RMB367/RMB383 for soft sleeper.

At RMB 330 for second class seats and 5:57 trip time, will the D trains compete well against sleepers on 10+ hour T trains?


----------



## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> Looking for similar length stretches:
> Tokyo-Nagoya on Tokaido Shinkansen, 342 km, has 11 intermediate stations (28,5 km per station)
> Tokyo-Sendai on Tohoku Shinkansen, 325 km, 9 intermediate stations (32,5 km per station)
> Tokyo-Niigata on Joetsu Shinkansen, 301 km, 10 intermediate stations (27 km per station)
> Osaka-Hiroshima on Sanyo Shinkansen, 306 km, 10 intermediate stations (28 km per station)
> 
> 6 intermediate stations on Shanghai-Beijing high speed railway between Hongqiao and Nanjing South, at about 43 km per station, is not too much.


Ah, Shanghai - Beijing, silly me.

I suppose one could squeeze in 1 or 2 all stopping trains per hour between the half a dozen direct trains, but then for each stopping train you are sacrificing rather a few direct train paths. Bare in mind this corridor is used for trains not only to Beijing, but to Zhengzhou, Xi'an; Wuhan, Chengdu, Chongqing, etc, and there will easily be demand for more than a dozen direct trains per hour between Shanghai/Hongqiao and Nanjing/South, and there'd be no paths left for the slow trains. On the other hand if the stoppers ran on the Shanghai - Nanjing PDL (which has a spur connecting to Nanjing South) there'd be minimal impact on overall line capacity.

Currently the 'small' stations are served by slowing down the long distance trains. Those stations see a skeleton service and long distance passengers suffer slow journeys, which is a lose-lose situation. The best way to run the services is to have frequent trunk services stopping at the major stations only, with small stations served by frequent feeder services connecting with the trunk services.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> On the other hand if the stoppers ran on the Shanghai - Nanjing PDL (which has a spur connecting to Nanjing South) there'd be minimal impact on overall line capacity.


Where does the spur line go?


----------



## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> Where does the spur line go?


Wikipedia is your friend 

Beijing - Shanghai HSR
Beijing - Shanghai HSR(in English)

Shanghai - Nanjing PDL
Shanghai - Nanjing PDL (in English)

The Chinese articles have more detailed route diagrams.

As you know between Shanghai and Nanjing these two lines follow different alignments, with the Shanghai-Beijing HSR using Nanjing South and Shanghai-Nanjing PDL primarily using Nanjing. There is a spur connecting the Shanghai-Nanjing PDL to Nanjing South, which means it's possible to run feeder services on the PDL for onward fast connections to destinations like Beijing.


----------



## simhks

Metro Section of Shenzhen North Station Opened
Photos Fixed!


----------



## chornedsnorkack

simhks said:


> Metro Section of Shenzhen North Station Opened


Thanks!

When shall high-speed railway section Shenzhen North-Guangzhou South open?


----------



## foxmulder

yaohua2000 said:


> Youtube cross-post:



That is sick


----------



## simhks

chornedsnorkack said:


> Thanks!
> 
> When shall high-speed railway section Shenzhen North-Guangzhou South open?


August 8.


----------



## fragel

China Railway 12th Bureau started laying its first 900-ton box-girder on Guiyang-Guangzhou PDL










The line was re-designed with a minimum curve radius of 5,500 m, but with box-girders of 900 tons and 4.8 meters between the track centers, it is possible to run trains at over 300km/h in the future.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

fragel said:


> China Railway 12th Bureau started laying its first 900-ton box-girder
> The line was re-designed with a minimum curve radius of 5,500 m,


Which line is it?


----------



## fragel

^^I edited the post. I thought I was replying to post 2272, but forgot to quote it.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

So, the high-speed rail lines converging at Guangzhou South:

Running:
Guangzhou - Wuhan
Guangzhou-Zhuhai
Under construction:
Guangzhou-Guizhou
Guangzhou-Nanning
Guangzhou-Maoming
Guangzhou-Shenzhen
Shenzhen-Xiamen

Guangzhou-Longhua shall open on 8th of August. What is the progress state of Longhua-Xiamen high speed railway, and when shall it open for traffic?


----------



## TWK90

I am visiting China next week.

My question is that is it possible to get a CRH ticket (Guangzhou South to Wuhan) just hours before departure?

Another question is that my search on sto.cn suggests that the seat is not available (I am searching for next week departure), as it was indicated. Does the result on sto.cn actually accurate in suggesting the available seats on that train?


----------



## hmmwv

TWK90 said:


> I am visiting China next week.
> 
> My question is that is it possible to get a CRH ticket (Guangzhou South to Wuhan) just hours before departure?
> 
> Another question is that my search on sto.cn suggests that the seat is not available (I am searching for next week departure), as it was indicated. Does the result on sto.cn actually accurate in suggesting the available seats on that train?


It depends on which line are you planning to ride and what time. For most PDLs you can get a ticket 15 to 20 minutes before departure unless it's peak traveling time (early Monday morning or Friday afternoon).


----------



## TWK90

hmmwv said:


> It depends on which line are you planning to ride and what time. For most PDLs you can get a ticket 15 to 20 minutes before departure unless it's peak traveling time (early Monday morning or Friday afternoon).


What if it's on Thursday (Guangzhou South to Wuhan)?

Strangely, on sto.cn, tickets on next week Thursday were not available.

Though I am a foreigner and won't be able to buy ticket from sto.cn, but I wonder, is it a reliable indicator of seat availability on high speed rail?


----------



## fragel

TWK90 said:


> What if it's on Thursday (Guangzhou South to Wuhan)?
> 
> Strangely, on sto.cn, tickets on next week Thursday were not available.
> 
> Though I am a foreigner and won't be able to buy ticket from sto.cn, but I wonder, is it a reliable indicator of seat availability on high speed rail?


I believe you can read Chinese, so I recommend you use the official ticketing/info website by MoR:

http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/kyfw/ypcx/

The thing is, currently you can only book a train ticket within 10 days, so seat information is only available on the website up to July 6th.


----------



## 33Hz

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13927660


----------



## TWK90

fragel said:


> I believe you can read Chinese, so I recommend you use the official ticketing/info website by MoR:
> 
> http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/kyfw/ypcx/
> 
> The thing is, currently you can only book a train ticket within 10 days, so seat information is only available on the website up to July 6th.


Thanks a lot for the link!

From the official MoR website, there are lots of available seats on that day! That's a relief to me


----------



## fragel

*China to open Beijing-Shanghai high speed rail link*

By Peter Foster

12:49PM BST 27 Jun 2011



> Our journey into the future starts even before boarding the sleek, white Chinese bullet-train that will speed the 820 miles to Shanghai — that’s almost as far as Land’s End to John O’Groats — in just four hours and 48 minutes.
> 
> Beijing’s South Railway Station is a marvel of modernity, a vaulting glass dome propped up on steel stilts that looks like a flying saucer has just landed from outer space. Compared to the average British railway station, that’s where we might as well be.
> 
> China has more than built 300 ultra-modern railway stations during a decade-long railway building boom; grand symbols of its rising economic power, just as the great London stations of Euston, Paddington and Kings Cross were for the Victorians.
> 
> It’s 9am and, with soft whine of the giant electric motor, we’re off; gliding out of Beijing South where the platform is so clean the guard’s reflection shines in the polished granite. A digital sign in the carriage shows our steadily building speed in kilometers per hour… 48kph… 180kph… 247kph….
> 
> Seven minutes after departure and we reach cruising speed of 300kph (186mph) ...


read more

btw, the video in the link is pretty good.


----------



## yaohua2000

*bbs.ourail.com cross-post*

http://bbs.ourail.com/thread-120923-1-1.html


----------



## foxmulder

yaohua2000 said:


>



This two pictures are my favorites. Thanks for sharing. Are there high res versions of these beauties???


----------



## vincent

nice pictures! it just show the scale of this massive engineering project.


btw, what happened to these trains? i thought they clean the train with workers when it arrive at the terminal stations. Maybe they only clean one side? (the side facing the platform). I think it is a really bad idea to pick pure white for a train and you have to constantly keep it clean.


----------



## saiho

wait, are those 16 car sets for the Beijing-Shanghai HSR, wow meet China's response to the Tokaido Shinkansen. nice to see actual 16 car sets not 8x2 sets you see on other CRH lines


----------



## fragel

^^CRH380A*L* and CRH380B*L* have already served several other lines for a couple of months.


----------



## fragel

Beijing-Shanghai HSR to start operation in a few hours, very exciting.

btw, thanks yaohua2000 for posting these great pics, otherwise most ppl won't be able to see them. the photographer is quite good at taking railway and train pics.


----------



## yaohua2000

fragel said:


> Beijing-Shanghai HSR to start operation in a few hours, very exciting.
> 
> btw, thanks yaohua2000 for posting these great pics, otherwise most ppl won't be able to see them. the photographer is quite good at taking railway and train pics.


I will also tweet on the first train, follow me if you are interested.


----------



## hhouse

fragel said:


> btw, thanks yaohua2000 for posting these great pics, otherwise most ppl won't be able to see them. the photographer is quite good at taking railway and train pics.


QFT!

The pictures are really very impressive :cheers:

Thanks for the liveticker, yaohua2000!


----------



## big-dog

Inside Shanghai Hongqiao Railway station - First day of Beijing-Shanghai High-speed





































Sina weibo


----------



## cmoonflyer

*HERE COMES HIGH-SPEED ......
CHINANEWS---BEIJING, June 30 -- The first commercial bullet train left Shanghai and Beijing at 3 :00 (BJT) p.m. Thursday, beginning a one-day tale of two cities on the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway.
The 1,318-kilometer link, starting from Beijing and ending at Shanghai, chains together the country's prosperous Pan-Bohai and Yangtze River Delta economic zones, cutting the single-way time between the two cities to under five hours from two days half a century ago. *


----------



## CPHbane

fantastic pics!

Bird view of Hong qiao station is also nice!


----------



## Pansori

Holy crap... those photos with Beijing South look like they're from another planet or a sci-fi movie.


----------



## sasalove

yaohua2000 said:


> Part 2: G1 from Beijing South to Langfang:


Wow, You get to meet Premier Wen in person...


----------



## vincent

loong said:


> This is Inspection vehicle ,for test the track. its yellow.
> 
> You can watch this video, in 11'
> 
> 
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjA3MTE0MTAw.html


i don't think it is Dr. Yellow though. I looks like dirt/sand color to me.


----------



## fragel

yaohua2000 said:


> Part 2: G1 from Beijing South to Langfang:


nice experience. seems a little bit chaotic on aboard, guess it was due to the journalists and secret services.

:bash::bash::bash:the [email protected]:30. He should be strapped on the train nose.


----------



## fragel

vincent said:


> i don't think it is Dr. Yellow though. I looks like dirt/sand color to me.


me neither. they are just regular trains running in the test operation and did not get cleaned as often as trains in actual operation.


----------



## yaohua2000

Part 3: G1 from Langfang to Nanjing South


----------



## yaohua2000

*Part 4*


----------



## yaohua2000

*Part 5*


----------



## luizz27

is there any chance that someone (that nows chinese) could show a step by step on how to buy a ticket train using http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/ ??

thanks


----------



## yaohua2000

*All pics and videos is up*

Pictures: http://www.yaohua2000.org/2011/20110630/en.html

Videos:

http://youtu.be/4UknU0kt-UI
http://youtu.be/zrPeVQjrMIM
http://youtu.be/jdjkE4fgYFQ
http://youtu.be/GbW6IyykDhQ
http://youtu.be/dYk3Qbr5tTc
http://youtu.be/BDyQl8fvlOM


----------



## oliver999

luizz27 said:


> is there any chance that someone (that nows chinese) could show a step by step on how to buy a ticket train using http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/ ??
> 
> thanks


first step: copy this website and open it: http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/kyfw/ ,there is a form you have to finished 
seconed step: input words,for example you want to buy a ticket august 3rd shanghai-beijing ticket.
出发地: depature ,input"shQ",then chinese characters"上海南"shows up,click it.
目的地:destination,input"bjn"then chinese characters"北京南"shows up,click it.

出发日期: Date of depature,input "2011-08-03"
出发时间: time of depature ,input "00:00 etc"

step third,there is a button on the page"查询",click it! you get this page http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/kyfw/
车次-train number 有-ticket availbe, 无-sold out

choose the train you want ,click "预订"button.


----------



## fragel

trains vs flights
display board at Shanghai Hongqiao transportation hub on July 3rd

left: all high speed trains on time
right: most flights are canceled or delayed due to thunderstorm










However, some passengers smoking on trains triggered the alarm system, forced the trains to stop and caused delays.


----------



## Pansori

^^
Smoking on a train? Are there no warnings (just like those during flights) saying that smoking is not permitted? How retarded one must be to actually do that!


----------



## fragel

^^there are warnings everywhere, even in the train broadcasts.



















they should just follow the rules on flights and impose a penalty up to $2000 for smoking or something like that. ppl learn really fast when they have to literally pay for their mistakes.


----------



## Pansori

But what about other passengers? Don't they warn their fellow smoking-passengers that this is not going to end good?


----------



## binhai

all men smoke in China


----------



## alimoe

ok... i know this is in bad taste...but i swear that the conductor wearing purple in the picture above looks like shes about to kick some ass.. lol


----------



## yaohua2000

BarbaricManchurian said:


> all men smoke in China


Not true. Because I don't, and I hate it.


----------



## Mika Montwald

Pansori said:


> But what about other passengers? Don't they warn their fellow smoking-passengers that this is not going to end good?



NOTE:

I am sorry the content below is rather off topic. 
My last post on this issue. 


^^

That is one of the primary huge cultural problem in China. 
Frankly, it is a National Embarrassment. 

:bash:

99% of people in China tend to look the OTHER way when <a CRIME or a VIOLATION is in PROGRESS>. 

Time and time again, I received some strange and weird looks from other surrounding passengers when 
I challenged the violators for <lifting one's feet up, and smoking, and allowing children to urinate on the CRH trains>. 


No one dare to STAND - UP and STEP - UP and CHALLENGE the violators and make the violators be 
accountable for their actions. 
These same people above are so inept that they are brain dead in their responds. 

No one has to be a hero. 
They can just simply QUIETLY -- DIAL 110 and report the <CRIME in PROGRESS>. 
But, 99% of people in China do NOT act this way. 




And then, some of the same COWARD people above are blaming the PRC central government for not managing the nation properly. 
Plus, many of the same coward people above (mostly born before 1980) are migrating to 
the west or acquiring a green card as soon as they have the means, 
as an insurance just in case, China is imploding from within from the lack of rule of law enforcement. 


What use is the <RULE of LAW> if no one dare to ENFORCE it (including the government officials in charge and 
<a BIG SIGNIFICANT --- "AND"> 
the regular citizens on the street who witness the crime and violations)???


There is a famous saying roughly translated as <"*Only Sweep the Snow in Front of Your Own Door*.">
This saying carries such a LOSER tag, because at the end of the day, everybody suffers because of the crime and violations performed by violators. 


Another National Embarrassment. 
I personally feel only less than 5% of people in China respect Public Property and regard CRH trains as National Treasure. 


My 3 cents guesses is this FEAR of ENFORCEMENT maybe deeply rooted in the historical way 
the idiotic emperors in exterminating everybody related to the executed clan or family or 
maybe related to the idiotic 1960 Chairman Mao Cultural Revolution.


I am sorry that I am offending many people. 
But, certain things need to be express clearly and clarified. 
BTW, I personally feel that <eating dog, smoking, and drinking excessively <alcohol content higher than 23%> are very backward and primitive behaviors.


----------



## yaohua2000

*Test run on Guangzhou–Shenzhen HSR Line*

The next high-speed line after the Beijing–Shanghai line, set to open next month.


----------



## luizz27

oliver999 said:


> first step: copy this website and open it: http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/kyfw/ ,there is a form you have to finished
> seconed step: input words,for example you want to buy a ticket august 3rd shanghai-beijing ticket.
> 出发地: depature ,input"shQ",then chinese characters"上海南"shows up,click it.
> 目的地:destination,input"bjn"then chinese characters"北京南"shows up,click it.
> 
> 出发日期: Date of depature,input "2011-08-03"
> 出发时间: time of depature ,input "00:00 etc"
> 
> step third,there is a button on the page"查询",click it! you get this page http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/kyfw/
> 车次-train number 有-ticket availbe, 无-sold out
> 
> choose the train you want ,click "预订"button.


thank you for your help


----------



## Pansori

TWK90 said:


> Metre gauge, 140 km/h.


Thanks. This clarifies things up. I completely forgot that Malaysia is using 1000mm tracks. Although for some reason they use 1435mm on the KLIA line.


----------



## Pansori

fragel said:


> As for the 'empty' remarks, well 'empty' is a subjective concept, but I think the photos speak for themselves.


I think his "trip" was conducted some time in June i.e. weeks before the Beijing-Shanghai line was open. Knowing that Hongqiao is the terminus of the new line which is the busiest and most important HSR line in China it may be not surprising that there were no big crowds. He should have come a couple of weeks later to see a different picture. Anyway, he should refrain from making such comments in the future because he made a complete fool out of himself making factual errors in almost every single statement he made as an aftermath of his China visit


----------



## idoke

fragel said:


> ^^whether the reuters report is correct is one issue, but *PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THE ARTICLE TITLE AT YOUR WILL*


I don't understand why you are so angry. I didn't claim to quote the article's title.
Also, there was a similar report on China daily a few days ago, but I didn't save the link.


----------



## fragel

idoke said:


> I don't understand why you are so angry. I didn't claim to quote the article's title.
> Also, there was a similar report on China daily a few days ago, but I didn't save the link.


I don't have to be angry with you. just don't tell me that you can't tell the difference between your words "Beijing to cut" and the article title "Beijing *mulls* cuts".


----------



## fragel

*Hainan West Ring Railway approved, construction may start in late 2011*

length: 344km
investment: RMB 27.1 billion (or about $4.2 billion)
minimum radius: 5,500 m
top speed: 250 km/h

route (west ring railway will connect with the already-built east ring railway):












> 新华网海口７月９日电（记者赵叶苹）记者从海南省发改委和海南省跨海通道办公室获悉，新建海南西环铁路可行性研究报告近日获国家发展改革委批复。海南省跨海通道办公室有关负责人说，这意味着项目具备了开工建设的条件，下一步将转入征地拆迁和施工设计招投标工作，项目有望今年下半年开工建设，工期计划４年。


read more here


----------



## maldini

fragel said:


> Here are some obvious mistakes imo:
> 
> 1. The HSR is not maglev, as is pointed out by Nozumi; Mr. Roubini probably heard about the proposed maglev line.
> 2. There is no commercial flight between Shanghai and Hangzhou, as Pansori suspected; who would take a flight when a 169km train ride only takes 45 minutes and costs $12?
> 3. The HSR cuts the travel time from previous 78 minutes to 45 minutes;
> 4. Hongqiao Airport is not a 'new local' airport; Mr. Roubini probably did not know Hongqiao Airport was the only international airport in Shanghai before Pudong Airport was built;
> 5. The 'Highway' parallel to the HSR is not new either. Shanghai-Hangzhou expressway opened in 1998.
> 
> As for the 'empty' remarks, well 'empty' is a subjective concept, but I think the photos speak for themselves.


Just ignore the guy's comments. He has no clue about what he is saying about China.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

fragel said:


> *Hainan West Ring Railway approved, construction may start in late 2011*
> 
> length: 344km
> investment: RMB 27.1 billion (or about $4.2 billion)
> minimum radius: 5,500 m
> top speed: 250 km/h
> 
> route (west ring railway will connect with the already-built east ring railway):


What is the state of progress for a high speed railway Guangzhou-Maoming?


----------



## ANR

*Nouriel Roubini's opinions*



fragel said:


> *Economist Nouriel Roubini talking about his ride on Shanghai-Hangzhou HSR*


"It is always interesting to see the differences in perspectives by visitors to China. See the following excerpt from a Wall Street Journal article "China vs. America: Which Is the Developing Country?" on 7/9 by ROBERT J. HERBOLD who is a past COO of Microsoft:

"Recently I flew from Los Angeles to China to attend a corporate board-of-directors meeting in Shanghai, as well as customer and government visits there and in Beijing. After the trip was over, in thinking about the United States and China, it was not clear to me which is the developed, and which is the developing, country.

Infrastructure: Let's face it, Los Angeles is decaying. Its airport is cramped and dirty, too small for the volume it tries to handle and in a state of disrepair. In contrast, the airports in Beijing and Shanghai are brand new, clean and incredibly spacious, with friendly, courteous staff galore. They are extremely well-designed to handle the large volume of air traffic needed to carry out global business these days.

In traveling the highways around Los Angeles to get to the airport, you are struck by the state of disrepair there, too. Of course, everyone knows California is bankrupt and that is probably the reason why. In contrast, the infrastructure in the major Chinese cities such as Shanghai and Beijing is absolute state-of-the-art and relatively new.

The congestion in the two cities is similar. In China, consumers are buying 18 million cars per year compared to 11 million in the U.S. China is working hard building roads to keep up with the gigantic demand for the automobile.

The just-completed Beijing to Shanghai high-speed rail link, which takes less than five hours for the 800-mile trip, is the crown jewel of China's current 5,000 miles of rail, set to grow to 10,000 miles in 2020. Compare that to decaying Amtrak."

The entire article can be found at: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303544604576430162195057084.html


----------



## Cancun

> A former railway official in China said recently that the claimed top speed of 350 km/h for high-speed trains was achieved at the cost of safety, after the railway ministry cut the operating speed for its high-speed trains below 300 km/h.
> 
> A former railway official in China said recently that the claimed top speed of 350 km/h for high-speed trains was achieved at the cost of safety, after the railway ministry cut the operating speed for its high-speed trains below 300 km/h.
> 
> Former railway minister Liu Zhijun, who was dismissed after an investigation into serious disciplinary violations, has been reportedly the driving force behind the push for a rapid expansion of China’s HSR network.
> 
> When Liu was on office, he had asked every part equipped with the HSRs should be the best in the world, former deputy chief engineer of the railway ministry Zhou Yimin said during an interview with the 21st Business Herald, the notion of being No.1 in the world is deeply rooted in his mind.
> 
> “We bought CRH3 and CRH5 produced in Germany, and CRH2 made by CSR Sifang's Qingdao factory, a joint venture with a Japanese company,” Zhou said, “*The foreigners wrote clearly in the contracts that the top running speed should be 300 km/h, so Liu Zhijun’s 350 km/h was not true. What he wanted was buying a train with top speed designed at 300 km/h but making it run at a speed of 350 km/h.”*Liu even raised the requirements of the speed from 350 km/h to 380km/h, Zhou said, because he was at that time facing much pressure from media in Japan and Germany, who criticized bluntly over China’s high-way trains, claiming that raising speed meant eating up the safety factors.
> 
> The core parts for CRH are made by foreign companies such as Simens, Zhou said. After China introduced the trains, it has made a big progress in making and developing its own railway technologies, but still lacks of core research and development capabilities, he added.
> 
> He also said that tests for the Beijing-Shanghai highway line had been running for a month, but probable safety problems still deserve further observation.
> 
> “In fact, glitches are common seen in our current several high-speed lines, some may appearing small but not for actually and all of them are being kept secret,” Zhou said.
> 
> “For example, the 200 km train of CRH 5, which connects Beijing with Shenyang, had been forced to stop in midway for several times on malfunctions,” he said.


http://english.caijing.com.cn/2011-06-21/110752370.html


----------



## SimFox

^^
if this retired "Chief engineer" mr Zhou can't make difference between Siemens and Alstom, between Germany and "other foreigners" may be he should just keep his mouth shut. Or he should have spoken then when he was in his office in MOR...

Yet his "conscious" somehow had awaken just now when his former boss run into trouble.
Generally mr. Zhou paints picture of rampant corruption and incompetence at the MOR. At the times when hi was chief engineer of the organization shouldn't we take him as a part of this very same incompetence and corruption? Part trying to cover the sit of his pants now when "political winds had changed"?

And if the "real problem" was driving "foreign" trains made for 300 km/h (again mr chief engeener apparently doesn't know specifications of Velaro, well not really terrible shock here) at speeds of 350 km/h, how then he only gives an example of 200 km/h train to Shenyang stopages as an example of system malfunctions? Why not give similar horror stories about say Beijing - Tianjin line?


----------



## Pansori

CRH5 was produced in Germany?


----------



## dumbfword

Italy. Pendolino was a Fiat Ferroviaria and Alstom bought them.


----------



## fragel

this Zhou Yimin was sacked by the former minister Liu Zhijun for incompetence (in 2003 0r 2004 which I can't remember the exact year), that is why he has this grudge against the former minister. and of course he is not involved in Chinese high speed railway construction. all the remarks he made were not based on first hand experience or data, in fact you can find all these remarks in previous media reports and forum posts. what he is saying now just proves that the former minister made the right decision: he has no knowledge about HSR.

the article did not quote Zhou's most famous and most hilarious remark:"If the (train) speed is too high, it can create a sonic boom"("航空航天专家告诉我速度和噪声成5-7次方的关系，如果速度太高，会产生音爆。"). not that it is wrong in principle, but it is quite funny to worry about sonic boom at current speeds. note that he got this idea after an aviation expert told him that noise is proportional to the 5-7th order of speed, it is safe to say he was not thinking about the micro-pressure wave, i.e. the tunnel boom. 

ignorant dudes like him in power is partially the reason why Chinese railway development was so slow in the 80's and 90's.


----------



## fragel

*catenary system hit by thunder, trains delayed on Beijing-Shanghai HSR
*









the catenary system on the section between Tengzhou and Zaozhuang was hit by thunder around 18:10 pm on July 10th, and was repaired around 19:37pm. 12 trains were affected. 



> 东方网记者王铭泽7月10日报道：因受雷电天气影响，今日18:10左右，京沪高铁滕州至枣庄段供电线路遭受雷击，造成接触网故障，影响北京往上海下行方向12趟列客车不同程度晚点。经过铁路部门的抢修，19:37恢复正常供电和行车。东方网记者从铁路上海局了解到，目前，已在1趟晚点列车到站，后续列车最晚将在24点40分抵达。


read more on sina


----------



## idoke

fragel said:


> I don't have to be angry with you. just don't tell me that you can't tell the difference between your words "Beijing to cut" and the article title "Beijing *mulls* cuts".



OK. Now I get your point.
Obviously you are right. I should have said "Beijing considers cutting"

English is not my mother tongue, and actually I really didn't know the meaning of the word "mulls".


----------



## hkskyline

Tianjin West 
By *天河* from a Chinese photography forum :


----------



## foxmulder

Great pictures! Men on the roof gives a nice reference to appreciate the size of the structure. Awesome...


----------



## fragel

another wave of delays on the Beijing-Shanghai HSR on July 12th

this time it happened around Suzhou(宿州). seems a power cable was burned, causing power failure.










http://news.xinhuanet.com/society/2011-07/12/c_121656439.htm



> 新华网上海7月12日电 (记者 贾远琨) 记者从上海铁路局了解到，7月12日11时，京沪
> 高铁宿州附近因供电设备故障，造成部分列车晚点。经全力抢修，13时故障处理完毕。
> 据介绍，目前，晚点列车已经恢复运行。铁路部门对列车晚点给旅客造成的不便表示歉
> 意。


----------



## fragel

idoke said:


> OK. Now I get your point.
> Obviously you are right. I should have said "Beijing considers cutting"
> 
> English is not my mother tongue, and actually I really didn't know the meaning of the word "mulls".


you see the journalists are quite cunning. they tend to use words like "considers the possibility of cutting", "may cut" or in this case "mulls cuts", because they don't wanna assume the responsibility of false reporting. The report of possible funding cut based on anonymous source is probably another trick to influence the stock market.


----------



## Luli Pop

foxmulder said:


> Great pictures! Men on the roof gives a nice reference to appreciate the size of the structure. Awesome...


wowwww!!!

how tall is it?


----------



## big-dog

hkskyline said:


> Tianjin West
> By *天河* from a Chinese photography forum :


WOW, it's a giant upgrade. Below is the old west station when I was studying in Tianjin.



>


----------



## fragel

^^the old station house was lifted from ground and moved to a nearby new location. It is preserved and will reopen as a railway museum.


----------



## hkskyline

1 more of Tianjin West 
By *hupan* from a Chinese photography forum :


----------



## foxmulder

Last picture was even better. This one is special. I am not sure whether I like this one or my all time favorite Guangzhou station more. What a dilemma.. :lol:


----------



## UD2

fragel said:


> ^^the old station house was lifted from ground and moved to a nearby new location. It is preserved and will reopen as a railway museum.


very good move. I'm so glad they saved it


----------



## Myouzke

hkskyline said:


> 1 more of Tianjin West
> By *hupan* from a Chinese photography forum :


For once no big fat red characters like the usual major stations


----------



## idoke

*Another delay*

3rd delay since opening of the Shanghai-BJ HSR. 

This time it affected only one train

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2011-07/14/content_12897843.htm


----------



## yaohua2000

idoke said:


> 3rd delay since opening of the Shanghai-BJ HSR.
> 
> This time it affected only one train
> 
> http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2011-07/14/content_12897843.htm


No, it was not only one train. If one train slows down, the following trains must follow behind it.

I was in Beijing South Station yesterday, about half Beijing–Shanghai trains delayed.


----------



## Luli Pop

Myouzke said:


> For once no big fat red characters like the usual major stations


I'd cover de characters with gold leaf!


----------



## HunanChina

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjg0MjkyNzEy.html


----------



## Julito-dubai

Just used it yesterday from Beijing to Nanjing and today from Nanjing to Shanghai. No problems whatsoever. It is really amazing, you have the feeling to sit in a plane and fly at an altitude of 25 meters through the suburban jungle of Shanghai. The only thing they should improve is the choice of food in the restaurant. They only had one meal which was ok, but no variety.


----------



## WatcherZero

At least they have apologised to the public, taking out adverts in the papers to apologise for the more than a dozen power failures in its first week of operation and promising they will be fixed.


----------



## arnau_Vic

impressive


----------



## Nozumi 300

HunanChina said:


> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjg0MjkyNzEy.html


:hug:


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

Where were these picture taken? Where are the mountains located? Very nice landscape and very nice technology combined with very nice sunset, what more can you ask?


----------



## nouveau.ukiyo

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/railway-construction-starts-in-china.html



> *Railway construction starts in China*
> 
> 15 July 2011
> 
> CHINA: Construction is scheduled to begin this month on a 168 km line linking Jingzhou in Hubei province with Yueyang in Hunan. The alignment is being designed for 160 km/h running, and construction is expected to take three years at a cost of 11·4bn yuan.
> 
> Meanwhile, local approval has been given for an 80 km railway between Tangshan and Caofeidian in Hebei province, a 200 km/h mixed-traffic line with five stations.
> 
> The National Development & Reform Commission has approved the feasibility study for a 350 km double-track 200 km/h electrified line from Jiujiang in Jiangxi province to Quzhou in Zhejiang which is expected to take four years to buil
> 
> The World Bank is providing a US$200m loan towards construction of the 360 km PDL between Jilin, Hunchun and Tumen (RG 4.11 p9).


----------



## nineth

從上貼新聞看, 新鐵路部長上任新建的三段鐵路, 不要說350千米時速了, 250都不到. 這不是自毀長城大倒退嗎? 設立高指標, 才有動力追求技術創新和突破.

最後說向世銀借款2億米元建 Hunchun 至 Tumen 段 200千米時速的客運專線.

這就更奇怪了, 劉志軍主政時, 鐵路建設都是政府投資. 中國政府有的是錢, 外匯3萬億, 人民幣可以自生. 為何要向世銀借錢呢? 這類似有一千家財的財主佬向另一高利貸借錢, 這不是明顯送利給別人嗎? 新鐵路部長在干什麼? 輸送利益?


----------



## fragel

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> Where were these picture taken? Where are the mountains located? Very nice landscape and very nice technology combined with very nice sunset, what more can you ask?


those were probably taken in Shandong Province.

here are some more pics by the same photographer from his weibo:


----------



## fragel

update on Shenyang-Dandong PDL, 207 km, designed speed 250km/h

The first box-girder(800 ton) was laid on July 8th. Construction started on March 17th, 2010 and will be completed in 2014. The line connects Shenyang, the capital city of Liaoning Province, with Dandong, the border city adjacent to North Korea.

route (the upper half is Shenyang-Dandong PDL, the lower half is Dandong-Dalian railway):









report: sina


> 沈丹客运专线 首榀箱梁架好
> 2011年07月08日08:26 辽一网-华商晨报
> 
> 晨报讯（记者 谭皓 通讯员 呼兴宝）昨日上午，一片长32.6米、重800吨的巨大箱梁被稳稳地安放在柳河特大桥的桥墩上，沈丹客运专线首榀箱梁顺利架设成功。
> 
> 沈阳至丹东客运专线全长207公里，设计时速250公里。
> 
> 为保证速度，沈丹客运专线设计有81公里长的隧道和42公里长的桥梁。客运专线新建特大、大中桥梁共86座，桥梁长度占正线线路长度30%还多，位于沈阳市陈相镇境内的柳河特大桥全长3.5公里，是比较大型的一座桥梁。
> 
> 箱梁是桥梁工程中梁的一种，内部为空心状，上部两侧有翼缘，类似箱子，在哈大客专中广泛使用。
> 
> 沈丹客专地处辽宁省东南部沈阳市、本溪市和丹东市境内，起自沈阳南站，经本溪、南芬、通远堡、凤凰城，止于丹东市，2010年3月17日开工建设，工期4年。


----------



## chornedsnorkack

fragel said:


> update on Shenyang-Dandong PDL, 207 km, designed speed 250km/h
> 
> The first box-girder(800 ton) was laid on July 8th. Construction started on March 17th, 2010 and will be completed in 2014. The line connects Shenyang, the capital city of Liaoning Province, with Dandong, the border city adjacent to North Korea.


Are there any plans to continue the high speed line across the border?


----------



## fragel

chornedsnorkack said:


> In which month is the opening due date of Beijing-Shijiazhuang? Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Wuhan?


not specified. both are scheduled to open in late 2012 according to reports, but seems they should be ready before that.


----------



## fragel

big-dog said:


> Great update Fragel. It's awesome all the major HSRs will open by the end of this year.
> 
> Cheers.


it is harder to get updates on lesser-known PDLs.

according to the old schedule most of them should open within this year. After the adjustment, Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Wuhan PDL will open next year, and it is not certain if Harbin-Dalian can make it this year.


----------



## Arul Murugan

Shanghai-Beijing high speed tracks near Xuzhou City-Jiwang district!

Crisscrossing G3 Jingtai expressway and G310 road.


----------



## fragel

wind-protection gallery experimental section completed on Lanxin (Lanzhou-Urumqi) HSR

the 276m long experimental section is used to collect data for constructing the whole 38km long gallery.



















source


----------



## Arul Murugan




----------



## Arul Murugan

^^

Only G trains use this new tracks? D trains ply in old track?


----------



## fragel

^all D trains (including D sleeper trains) between Beijing and Shanghai were moved from the old line to the new HSR. definitely not the best move but that is what the MoR decided to do, and maybe they will adjust that.


----------



## Arul Murugan

fragel said:


> ^all D trains (including D sleeper trains) between Beijing and Shanghai were moved from the old line to the new HSR. definitely not the best move but that is what the MoR decided to do, and maybe they will adjust that.


That will surely help in capacity utilization of new line and easing the congestion in old line.

Looks Xuzhou is located almost equal distance between Shanghai and Beijing. And every high speed train stops here!! Hope I get chance either to cover Xuzhou to Shanghai or Beijing.

Is there any non-stop train between Beijing and Shanghai on new route?


----------



## fragel

Update on *Shanghai-Kunming PDL*

total length: 2022 km

the PDL comprises three sections: Shanghai-Hangzhou PDL (currently in operation), Hangzhou-Changsha PDL (construction started in Dec 2009) and Changsha-Kunming PDL (construction started in Mar 2010). 

rough route(wiki):
major cities on the line, from left to right: Shanghai, Hangzhou, Nanchang, Changsha, Guiyang and Kunming









construction in Jiangxi Province





































Yichun Grand Bridge




































construction in Karst-prone regions









source


----------



## fragel

Arul Murugan said:


> That will surely help in capacity utilization of new line and easing the congestion in old line.
> 
> Looks Xuzhou is located almost equal distance between Shanghai and Beijing. And every high speed train stops here!! Hope I get chance either to cover Xuzhou to Shanghai or Beijing.
> 
> Is there any non-stop train between Beijing and Shanghai on new route?


what I meant is that they should have kept some overnight D-trains on the old line as there is no overnight service on the HSR. the few overnight slow trains on the old line are over-crowded.

there is no non-stop train on the HSR, but there are one-stop trains between Beijing and Shanghai which stop only at Nanjing.


----------



## ANR

*Railway cuts bullet trains from schedule*

Updated: 2011-07-23
By Tan Zongyang (China Daily)

BEIJING - China's railway authority is about to suspend two pairs of bullet trains on part of the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway because of their low occupancy rate.

Two shuttle trains to Jinan, in Shandong province, one from Beijing, the other from Tianjin, will be "temporarily halted" starting Monday, according to a notice on the Tianjin Railway Station's website on Wednesday. This is the first time railway authorities have announced a reduction in service since the flagship 1,318-kilometer Beijing-Shanghai railway, the world's longest fast track, opened late last month. 

"The adjustment is aimed at reducing the unnecessary waste of resources", an official at the publicity department at Beijing railway bureau, who declined to give her name, told China Daily on Friday. She said that the seat occupancy rate of the two trains is less than 20 percent, lower than the railway authority's required rate. "The cancellation is understandable, just like bus routes with very few passengers should be cut to meet market demand," she said. By 5 pm on Friday, the railway authority's ticket service portal "www.12306.cn" showed that the G181 bullet train, which travels from Beijing to Jinan, had more than 720 standard seats unsold. The train has more than 1,000 seats.

Xu Guodong, a Jinan businessman who took train to Beijing once a week, said that because there were so few passengers, he sometimes felt like he had chartered the train. "Usually, there are only five or six people in the first-class car, so I can sit anywhere I like," said Xu, who always purchased first-class seats. Xu said he was not worried about the reduced service because there are many alternate trains from Jinan to Beijing that can provide enough seats for passengers. 

Zhao Jian, a transport expert at Beijing Jiaotong University, said the reduced service has added to his concerns that China's landmark high-speed railway might have profitability problems because of lower-than-expected passenger rates. "Insufficient passengers is a common problem seen on many of the country's new passenger lines," he said, warning that the high-speed railway network may suffer huge losses in operation. 

According to the Ministry of Railways, 90 pairs of trains travel along the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed line every day. Statistics show that an average of 165,000 passengers a day used the new railway in its first two weeks of operation since July 1, while 80,000 continued to ride on the slower but less expensive old railway. However, ridership on the high-speed line was greatly affected after the service had a string of malfunctions in the past two weeks. The glitches, which caused delays and raised safety concerns, drove some passengers back to flying between the two municipalities - boosting the air ticket prices. During an online chat last week, Wang Yongping, spokesman for Ministry of Railways, apologized to passengers for the inconvenience caused by the train problems.


----------



## aodili

*Breaking News from Xinhua - July 23, 2011*

*Derailed bullet train coaches fall off bridge in east China*

WENZHOU, July 23 (Xinhua) -- Two coaches of a bullet train fell off a bridge after derailing in east China's Zhejiang Province late Saturday, local fire fighting sources said.

The details of casualties are unknown at the moment.

The train numbered D3115 from the provincial capital Hangzhou to the city of Wenzhou derailed at the section of Shuangyu Town in Wenzhou at 8:34 p.m., said fire fighters from Wenzhou.

Rescue personnel were rushing to the scene.

Source: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-07/23/c_131004846.htm


----------



## Woonsocket54

*D3115 derailment*

Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/8656759/Chinese-D-train-derails-and-falls-from-bridge.html


> The Chinese D train derailed with two of its carriages falling off a bridge
> 
> *Chinese D-train derails and falls from bridge*
> 3:23PM BST 23 Jul 2011
> 
> Dramatic pictures have just been released of a major train incident in the Wenzhou region of eastern China.
> 
> The Chinese D train derailed with two of its carriages falling off a bridge. The number of casualties, however, is still unknown, according to the official Xinhua news agency.
> 
> The train, travelling from Hangzhou to Wenzhou, went off the rails in eastern China's Zhejiang province around 8:30pm (1230 GMT), it reported, citing local firefighting sources.
> 
> The D train represents China's first-generation bullet trains. Running on regular track, they are capable of travelling at 150kph and are not part of the new high-speed network.
> 
> China is spending billions on building a high-speed rail network, with Premier Wen Jiabao on June 30 formally opening a flagship $33 billion line from Beijing to Shanghai.
> 
> That line has suffered problems with delays caused by power outages, sparking a slew of criticism online and in Chinese media.
> 
> The huge investment has made the sector a hotbed for corruption. China's state auditor has said construction companies and individuals last year siphoned off 187 million yuan ($29 million) from the Beijing-Shanghai project.


Another photo:









More pix here:
http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2011-07-23/215622864868.shtml


----------



## big-dog

^^ Per latest news, the thunder caused a power failure to CRH train D3115 and stopped it, the behind train D301 crashed into the back of the front train D3115 and caused the tragety. More details are coming ...


----------



## Attus

Sorry, I'm confused: did it happen on the new PDL, or in the old regular tracks?


----------



## big-dog

^^ Should be regular tracks. It's the "D" trains (up to 250km/h). New PDL runs "G" trains (300km/h).


----------



## Attus

big-dog said:


> ^^ Should be regular tracks. It's the "D" trains (up to 250km/h). New PDL runs "G" trains (300km/h).


Alright, but not so long ago I've read here that D trains are moved to the new PDL as well, and I am not sure whether it has happened or was only a plan.

Anyway, after the first train stopped, why did not the train control system stop the following one?


----------



## greenlion

Attus said:


> Sorry, I'm confused: did it happen on the new PDL, or in the old regular tracks?


It happens at 200km/h upgraded conventional railway, regular tracks, and D3115 is a CRH1B

11 died and 89 wounded as of 23:00 PM


----------



## Attus

Thanks.


----------



## Momo1435

It doesn't look like an upgraded old track. This viaduct is clearly part of the new line that opened just a couple of years ago. Maybe this segment has a max speed of 200km/h, but it's still a completely new track that is part of a high speed line. 

And this is a huge blow for high speed rail in China, this will have major consequences for all the lines including the PDL lines. Safety must always be the #1 priority, this simply cannot happen again.


Hopefully the number of casualties is limited.


----------



## 7freedom7

Good thing is this accident doesn't shake people's confidence on CRH

Beijing South railway station today.


----------



## Aenelia

For the French speakers : http://bigbrowser.blog.lemonde.fr/2...cidente-provoque-lindignation-du-web-chinois/

Lots of indignation on the Chinese web about the burying of the carriages and the personal effects of the people that died inside them.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

Restless said:


> They would have to switch off ATP for low-speed manoeuvring
> 
> Eg. going in and out of depots with no signalling.


I am not going to pretend how the PRC system works but ATC and ATP are usually installed on the rail and signals are fed directly into the control with no switches.

In Japan the override can only be issued at central command that monitors all trains.
Is there no central command in the PRC system?


----------



## greenlion

SamuraiBlue said:


> I am not going to pretend how the PRC system works but ATC and ATP are usually installed on the rail and signals are fed directly into the control with no switches.
> 
> In Japan the override can only be issued at central command that monitors all trains.
> Is there no central command in the PRC system?


No we have central command in Chinese system, and every railway bereau has their own dispartch center


----------



## WatcherZero

It wasnt three minutes after a passenger pulled the emergency brake that the collision occured, it occured 23 minutes after the train lost power and came to stop.

The carriages have now been buried near the crash scene rather than taken away for study, reportedly the government said it was to keep their technological secrets from the general populace.


----------



## greenlion

WatcherZero said:


> *the government said it was to keep their technological secrets from the general populace*.


did't see the report in Chinese forums, but in yesterdays conference, the official explaination is

　　


> “他告诉我，不是想掩埋，事实上这个事情是无法掩埋的，”王勇平说，对于为什么要掩埋，他们给出了这样的解释。“因为当时在现场抢险的情况，环境非常复杂，下面是一个泥塘，施展开来很不方便，还要对其他的车体进行处理，所以他们把车头埋在下面，盖上土，主要是便于抢险。”


----------



## gincan

Obviously major f*** ** by the command center. Shuting of the ATP is just brilliant, great work lads hno: However this is not unexpected in an autocratic society where individual thinking is surpressed :bash:


----------



## greenlion

gincan said:


> Obviously major f*** ** by the command center. Shuting of the ATP is just brilliant, great work lads hno: However this is not unexpected in an autocratic society where individual thinking is surpressed :bash:


Oh, surpressed...... yes, But chinese website are now full of anger about the incident right now, includes official medias are questioning various of explanations and infomations published by MOR.


----------



## Svartmetall

I realise this is quite a heated issue, however, we don't want to go the route of the skybar with insults flying around. Lets keep the discussion as apolitical as we can guys so that we can discuss this tragedy respectfully. 

Thanks everyone. The information posted thus far has been interesting.


----------



## WatcherZero

Shares in the two train manufacturers down 10% today, property companies also down 4% due to close association between property development and railway construction.Overall 3% fall in Chinas stock market, largest fall in 6 months.


----------



## foxmulder

Rest in peace for people who died. 

First of all, each accident should have taken extremely seriously and everything should be done to prevent it happening again. In this regard, I am glad some people are fired so other people will take their jobs much more seriously. 

I just hope this accident does not create a situation where high speed network affected negatively in mid/long term. This accident happened on an upgraded line and with first generation trains so does not really tell that much about the new high speed network. Still together with other glitches, naturally, it will create some doubts. I am not expecting passenger numbers decreasing but it may affect some policies.


----------



## NCT

I just hope from this accident they learn the dangers of rushing projects through, and also that of manual operation of trains when electronic systems go wrong. If something goes wrong, just stop the trains running - it's better to deal with angry passengers stuck at stations than to deal with dead ones and their families.


----------



## Suburbanist

The burial of remains of the dead and wreckage, allegedly done hastily, if confirmed, would have been totally abhorrent and appalling. That is the type of procedure you use to contain an epidemic of Ebola, not to treat an accident, maybe crime scene!


----------



## japanese001




----------



## WatcherZero

Translation?


----------



## WatcherZero

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/chinas-effort-muzzle-news-train-crash-sparks-outcry-104743216.html


----------



## Attus

Hello guys,

I was offline through the days so I can only now thank you for the informations.
After all, I am not happy about the disaster itself (R.I.P.), but I'm happy about the main cause of that. You may ask why? Since in this case it is clear that signaling and train control system is reliable when it's working, and it is much easier to force people to do they job properly than rebuild the signaling system in all the Chinese high-speed network and have very strict safety rules until it happens.

Note that it must be possible for trains to go even without signaling - but only in a very very slow way. Usually enabled speed in this case should be 25-40 km/h. By this speed the driver is able to stop his train when he catches the other one in sight.


----------



## WatcherZero

Wow, just learned their not just burying the carriages intact (One response to the burying allegations from the government is their burying the carriages for site access reasons, so that they can bring in heavy vehicles to the site and will excavate them later), their breaking them up and crushing them first!


----------



## gramercy

why is there a need to bury the carriages?


----------



## hmmwv

Attus said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> I was offline through the days so I can only now thank you for the informations.
> After all, I am not happy about the disaster itself (R.I.P.), but I'm happy about the main cause of that. You may ask why? Since in this case it is clear that signaling and train control system is reliable when it's working, and it is much easier to force people to do they job properly than rebuild the signaling system in all the Chinese high-speed network and have very strict safety rules until it happens.


I'm 100% with you, I'm glad that the problem is with people not the technology. In this case they should not only punish the operator who overrode the system, but more importantly the manager who made the call. As of yesterday the lines has already been reopened, with other D trains drive slowly pass the scene, it's a bizzard picture.


----------



## khoojyh

stoneybee said:


> 井底望天
> http://blog.sina.com.cn/skyinwell
> 
> 标签： 杂谈
> 现在网上有传言，说是日本或者美国的计算机病毒，侵袭了中国的高铁系统。大家听了笑一笑就行了。
> 想起以前看个一本书，叫做《动物农场》，说的是动物们反抗人类的压迫，自己组织了自己的动物农庄。大家为了让生活过的更好，就去建设磨坊。结果因为质量有问题，就在大风雨中倒塌了。于是领导说，这个是阶级敌人破坏。
> 这样的想法和说法，中国以前的历史里，也是常常有的。
> 但是不信这个传言，并不等于不应该提高警惕。正如美国曾经发生过一次电力系统的大停电事故，算是半个国家都受到了影响。这个事故是设备问题，但是立即引起了人们的关注：如果敌人要来搞破坏，这个岂不是软肋之一？
> 中国人也应该有这种居安思危的想法。害人之心不可有，防人之心不可为啊。
> 那么现在一些国家，比如说日本，在中国高铁安全上大做文章，也很正常。只有参照美国为了救亡三大汽车公司，从而使劲抽丰田的故事就行了。当时丰田出了一个故障，造成了几人死亡，于是美国大规模进行炒作，终于把三大汽车公司救出了火海。
> 至于会不会对中国高铁的出口造成影响，大家也不用担忧。自己把自己内部的事情做好，把自己的安全可靠性做到家，你当全世界人是瞎子啊？
> 这个世界有冥冥的上天。德国人就比较克制，没有乱讲话。毕竟德国自己的高铁也出过重大事故，还死了100多号人呢。日本人上次看到云南地震，还惋惜地说，咋不在北京上海发生大地震呢？话音未落，自己家里就来个地震、海啸，加核辐射了。做人还是要厚道点。
> 但是对铁道部那帮丫，就不能厚道。看着那个什么发言人出来讲话，那副嘴脸，不用听到胡说什么，就想一巴掌扇过去。
> 铁道部是应该好好整顿一下，好好反省一下，人命大于天。那怕是不幸遇难的受害者已经仙去，他们的遗体和遗物，都有最大限度的受到尊重。你出事的这条线路，又不是京广线，你晚两天恢复通车，多搜寻两天，会死啊？
> 该装孙子的时候，还学人打官腔，被愤怒的人们涂抹淹死你，活该。
> 有人问，为啥高铁和动车跑了几年，一直没有出事，而现在却是事故频频？
> 很简单，铁道部的这一套运行体制，有不合理的地方。以前刘跨越在的时候，这家伙是一个疯子，每次试车的时候，自己都要占车头，还要拉着手下的一帮高官，以身作则，都站在那里。如果一出事，大家就是一锅端。
> 于是这些手下人，就比较卖力，怎么也要保证自己的小命安全吧？而且还是老实验超高速，就是说你跑它个400，也可以顶得住，那么跑300，就要放心多了。
> 一种说法是，老刘给干下来之前，京沪线的枣庄到蚌埠是他亲自折腾的，所以现在京沪出毛病的地方，都是这个区域之外。
> 现在的铁道部是新官上任，老刘那套拼命三郎的法子是不搞了，可是其他的法子似乎还没有出来。所以铁路的问题，似乎有点总爆发的味道。正好也给私有化们，航空业们，波音公司们，振奋一下士气。
> 本来出点故障是小事，铁路晚点一下，也不是什么大事。大家谁都经过飞机和汽车晚点的。可是晚点的车，居然撞到了另一个晚点的车，还死了人，那就是大事了。
> 天大地大，不如人命最大。如果不记住这句话，那么你铁道部就没有一天好日子过。


Well done, agree with your point.... Japanese will do "free advertisment" for CRH because CRH is going to bring Shinkansen down in oversea market. CRH is giving a very good chance for them to draw CRH safety image. 

However, Shinkansen also having system failure at the earlier stage but the different is till date they never cause any accident (correct me if i am wrong).

Since the matter is already happen, i hope CRH will able to understand the cause and promise never repeat anymore in future.


----------



## hkskyline

Finally after so many days he makes it out to see the site ...


----------



## UD2

Taizu said:


> *Wen: Crash probe result to 'stand test of history'*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WENZHOU - Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao promised the investigation into the fatal train crash will offer a result that could "stand the test of history".
> 
> Wen made the remarks while speaking to press at the site of the deadly train crash near Wenzhou of eastern Zhejiang Province.
> 
> Design flaws in the railway signal equipment led to Saturday's fatal high-speed train collision near Wenzhou in Zhejiang province, the Shanghai railway bureau said on Thursday.
> The Beijing National Railway Research and Design Institute of Signals and Communication apologized for the flaw in a letter on its website, promising to cooperate in investigations, take responsibility and shoulder any due punishments.
> 
> After being struck by lightning, the signal system at the Wenzhou South Railway Station failed to turn one of its green lights to red, which caused the rear-end collision, said An Lusheng, head of the Shanghai Railway Bureau, at an investigatory meeting held by the State Council, or China's cabinet, in Wenzhou.
> 
> The State Council has set up an independent investigation panel, which includes authorities from the security, supervision and judiciary departments, Wen said.
> 
> He said the investigation will be "open, transparent" and "under public supervision." "We shall carefully listen to public opinions and reach a responsible result," Wen said.
> 
> China will severely punish those who are responsible for the fatal train collision, Premier Wen said. "We will severely punish those who are responsible for the accident and those who hold responsibilities of leadership in accordance with the country's laws," Wen told the press.
> 
> He stressed that the government's top priority is to "protect people's life."
> 
> "The country's development is for the people, so the most important thing is people's life."
> 
> The premier pledged to offer timely and accurate information on follow-up situations to the public after Saturday's fatal train collision.
> 
> Only by disclosing the truth to the public could the accident be handled successfully, he said.
> 
> He also urged the Ministry of Railways (MOR) to give an "honest answer" to the people on the way it had handled the aftermath of a fatal train crash.
> 
> "I called the minister of railways soon after the crash happened, and what I said to him was just two words -- 'save people'," said Wen after mourning victims and expressing condolences to the relatives of the dead.
> 
> "I believe the top principle in handling accidents is to save the victims by all means," said Wen.
> 
> "The Ministry of Railways should give an honest answer to the people as to whether it has conformed with this principle in dealing with the collision," said Wen.
> 
> Wen said that safety is a top priority in China's high-speed railway technology export.
> 
> "The high-speed railway construction of China should integrate speed, quality, efficiency and safety. And safety should be put in the first place," said Wen.
> 
> Wen noted that scientific planning, reasonable designing and orderly development are principles for the country's future railway construction.
> 
> The construction should not put sole emphasis on the speed, but should integrate it with quality, efficiency and safety, with the safety always the first priority, Wen said.
> 
> Wen urged nation to work harder to develop technologies that are "more secure and reliable."
> 
> The nation should brace up to develop technological brands with China's own intellectual property rights and products with international competitiveness.
> 
> He said that was "a lesson to be learned" from the accident that left 39 people dead and 192 others injured last Saturday.
> 
> Wen said he was "confident in the China's future, no matter in its development, construction, technology or education."
> 
> Chinadaily


ouch.... the central government is washing their hands of this and laying the responsibility of everything onto the railway dept. 

so many people are going to be so screwed... 

and this couldn't have come at a better time for party political infighting. Combined with Lai Changxing's return, the Shanghai sect is gonna have TONS of fun.


----------



## EricIsHim

hkskyline said:


> Finally after so many days he makes it out to see the site ...


Haven't you read the news he was "sick" in the last 11 days, and couldn't make out the bed ?? I wondered the same thing where was Wen. But, apparently he attended different things during that period.


----------



## urbanfan89

Attus said:


> After all I think the current comment of "serious design fail" is a very bad idea for the government. Why? Because if it is true (which I don't think is the case) it means that Chinese signaling system is seriously unreliable and therefore unacceptable for any potential customer of the Chinese railroad system.
> Admitting that the main cause for the accident was one or more wrong decision by party officials and/or railroad officers would mean that the system was OK. I personally thought the whole thing should be blamed on human errors even if the real cause would have been a technical issue - it would be better for China.


You must remember that the Party is not a monolithic entity where everyone in the Politburo agrees on how the country is run. The recent railway-building spree is perceived to be the product of the Party Youth Faction, and therefore his rivals in the Party (the Jiang/Xi-led Shanghai Faction) have an interest in discrediting or sabotaging the railway development program. I think they're using this accident as part of their plan to install more Jiang-associated people to gain power next year.


----------



## Attus

^^I see, thank you.


----------



## Svartmetall

stoneybee said:


> 井底望天
> http://blog.sina.com.cn/skyinwell


In accordance with the policy of the international sections of SSC, please could you provide an English translation to your Chinese text? 

Many thanks.


----------



## stoneybee

Svartmetall said:


> In accordance with the policy of the international sections of SSC, please could you provide an English translation to your Chinese text?
> 
> Many thanks.


My apologies and this the best thta I can do (from Google Translator)

Because out of a recent major accident, Wenzhou, Guangdong fortunate to see the television reports and news commentary.
The accident occurred at a time, there are another big thing happened, the shooting occurred and is Norway bombings shook the whole of Europe. The United States is the White House and Congress just on debt cap struggle, to fight the white-hot bayonets.
Therefore, China motor car accident, not a stir headlines. Only about the Japanese news anchor woman happy muzzled laugh, the whole mentality of the Japanese people gloat. We certainly can not be seen with such people generally, but radiation careful not to buy Japanese goods chaos on the line.
Guangdong TV news commentary, said the railway accident, the institutional issues, the problem is rectitude, he sent did not say, is not high degree of privatization of the problem.
Of course, the railway itself is problematic. Even without this incident, we have all kinds of EMU 过了保修期 (passing warranty period), and maintenance of the railway's own technical ability may not be top of the beam, with reservations. Therefore, the entire system to slow down a little bit, a good shake, to rule out what kinds of risks, it is more sensible choice.
Of course, just for the high-level Ministry of Railways, in the consolidation process, if not in technology and management as an entry point, and into factions fighting personnel, stations to choose sides, which led to infighting intensified falling apart, triggered a small incident after another, then left crooked road.
Railway car accident, more than once. While tragic loss of life, but if the bread with human blood as a weapon to a new thing and new technology to wipe out, everyone is to prevent trend. To high-speed rail competitors aviation industry, for example, is now or from time to time we saw the plane fall down, resulting in the loss of hundreds of lives, but this did not stop us to continue to fly.
The railway is the same, good to check the cause of the accident, not satisfied with the punishment of anyone, but to processes, systems and operations to improve up, placed first in the technology security. This is the real deal with the accident the road.
Because we are not technical experts, it is not the same as media correspondents, self-published technical analysis report. Wait a survey expert opinions out in making a conclusion.
The Ministry of Railways itself, has long been a target we spotted. From railway operations point of view, because the establishment of new lines, old passenger line, which the business opportunity, interest groups, factions will naturally become jealous of the target. Can be expected, on how bad the railway sector of public opinion will Yueyan Yue lively, carved out the Ministry of Railways asked to run all of the lines, especially the lucrative right to operate passenger line calls, will be relatively high.


----------



## sasalove

溫總理 溫州動車


----------



## sasalove

新聞透視


----------



## WatcherZero

Authorities have doubled the initial compensation offer but only 10 famillies have accepted.



> Meanwhile local lawyers have been told to report to the authorities any relatives seeking legal advice, AFP news agency reported, citing the official Xinhua agency.
> 
> Law firms should not "unauthorisedly respond and handle the cases", because "the accident is a major sensitive issue concerning social stability", the lawyers are said to have been warned in a statement.


----------



## WatcherZero

> *China 'forced papers' to scrap rail crash coverage*
> China imposed a widespread ban on coverage of last week's high-speed train crash, forcing newspapers across the country to scrap pages of stories, a Hong Kong newspaper reported Sunday.
> 
> The Sunday Morning Post said that Chinese propaganda authorities issued a censorship order late Friday, banning all coverage of the crash "except positive news or information released by the authorities".
> 
> The ban came after state media published rare criticism of the government over its response to the July 23 crash, which killed at least 40, injured almost 200 and called into question the fast expansion of China's high-speed rail network.
> 
> "After the serious rail traffic accident on July 23, overseas and domestic public opinions have become increasingly complicated," the order from the Publicity Department of the Communist Party said, according to the Post.
> 
> "All local media, including newspapers, magazines and websites, must rapidly cool down the reports of the incident.
> 
> "[You] are not allowed to publish any reports or commentaries, except positive news or information released by the authorities."
> 
> The sudden ban sent to newspaper and web editors forced the China Business Journal to scrap eight pages of its newspaper, the Post reported, while the 21st Century Business Herald had to scrap 12 and the Beijing News nine.
> 
> The papers had planned special coverage to mark the seventh day after the disaster, the report said. The state-run Xinhua newswire was meanwhile forced to warn subscribers not to use an investigative report it had issued.
> 
> The apparent ban was the second since the fatal crash, after propaganda authorities a day after the accident forbade local journalists from questioning the official line, according to the US-based China Digital Times.
> 
> That order appeared to be widely ignored, with a comment piece in the Communist party mouthpiece, the People's Daily, on Thursday arguing that China "needs development, but does not need blood-smeared GDP".
> 
> After Friday's reported order, angry journalists and editors published the spiked pages on the Twitter-like service Weibo, the Post reported, complaining they were forced to concoct other stories to fill the empty pages at the last moment.
> 
> "I was ordered to write something to fill up the empty pages at 10pm. At midnight I could no longer control myself and cried," one reporter was quoted by the newspaper as writing.
> 
> The Hong Kong Journalists' Association (HKJA) condemned the ban, saying it was not in line with Chinese premier Wen Jiabao's pledge of an "open and transparent" investigation when he visited the crash site last week.
> 
> "HKJA is appalled by such a move and demands that the Chinese Communist Party's Propaganda Bureau withdraw this directive and allows the media to report the truth freely," it said in a statement issued late Saturday.
> 
> "We urge premier Wen to personally follow up on this issue."
> 
> The association -- which represents 500 journalists in semi-autonomous Hong Kong, which enjoys rights not seen on the mainland -- urged media to continue reporting on the crash "so that the whole world will know what is going on".
> 
> Analysts last week predicted a clampdown on Chinese state media and possibly also on Weibo, where furious web users have vented their views since the crash.


http://uk.news.yahoo.com/china-forced-papers-scrap-rail-crash-coverage-023036493.html


----------



## Svartmetall

stoneybee said:


> My apologies and this the best thta I can do (from Google Translator)
> 
> Because out of a recent major accident, Wenzhou, Guangdong fortunate to see the television reports and news commentary.
> The accident occurred at a time, there are another big thing happened, the shooting occurred and is Norway bombings shook the whole of Europe. The United States is the White House and Congress just on debt cap struggle, to fight the white-hot bayonets.
> Therefore, China motor car accident, not a stir headlines. Only about the Japanese news anchor woman happy muzzled laugh, the whole mentality of the Japanese people gloat. We certainly can not be seen with such people generally, but radiation careful not to buy Japanese goods chaos on the line.
> Guangdong TV news commentary, said the railway accident, the institutional issues, the problem is rectitude, he sent did not say, is not high degree of privatization of the problem.
> Of course, the railway itself is problematic. Even without this incident, we have all kinds of EMU 过了保修期 (passing warranty period), and maintenance of the railway's own technical ability may not be top of the beam, with reservations. Therefore, the entire system to slow down a little bit, a good shake, to rule out what kinds of risks, it is more sensible choice.
> Of course, just for the high-level Ministry of Railways, in the consolidation process, if not in technology and management as an entry point, and into factions fighting personnel, stations to choose sides, which led to infighting intensified falling apart, triggered a small incident after another, then left crooked road.
> Railway car accident, more than once. While tragic loss of life, but if the bread with human blood as a weapon to a new thing and new technology to wipe out, everyone is to prevent trend. To high-speed rail competitors aviation industry, for example, is now or from time to time we saw the plane fall down, resulting in the loss of hundreds of lives, but this did not stop us to continue to fly.
> The railway is the same, good to check the cause of the accident, not satisfied with the punishment of anyone, but to processes, systems and operations to improve up, placed first in the technology security. This is the real deal with the accident the road.
> Because we are not technical experts, it is not the same as media correspondents, self-published technical analysis report. Wait a survey expert opinions out in making a conclusion.
> The Ministry of Railways itself, has long been a target we spotted. From railway operations point of view, because the establishment of new lines, old passenger line, which the business opportunity, interest groups, factions will naturally become jealous of the target. Can be expected, on how bad the railway sector of public opinion will Yueyan Yue lively, carved out the Ministry of Railways asked to run all of the lines, especially the lucrative right to operate passenger line calls, will be relatively high.


That is what I thought that post said from the translation provided by my wife, however, I wanted to see it written out by yourself (even though you used a translator). 

First off, this is a blog post, not news and therefore is an opinion of a writer. It should not be presented as news nor as fact and so caveats should be added to such sources. 

Secondly, this blog post verges on nationalistic and we want to try to avoid political bias in these threads. 

Please make sure that we keep things objective in these threads. That goes for news criticising the Chinese government as well as posts defending the actions of the government. When we have objective news pieces on either side, by all means present them, but posting inflammatory blog posts only adds fuel to fires and I have received complaints about this post in particular. 

Thank you for providing a translation, though.


----------



## hmmwv

Fatality has risen to 40, one passenger from Fujian died from head injuries and multiple fractures sustained.

中新网温州7月29日电(记者 陈国亮 成效伟)记者29日上午在温州市殡仪馆采访时得知，“7•23”温州动车事故中一福建籍乘客陈伟在温州市第二人民医院抢救无效，于7月28日晚上10时45分左右被宣布死亡(编者注：事故遇难者人数增至40人)，并于29日凌晨2时左右被送到温州市殡仪馆。目前，陈伟的妻子等7名家属已经在温州多天，另还有8名家属29日下午还将陆续从福建赶往温州。

　　陈伟，男，今年42岁，福建籍，在福州市办有一个小型纸盒包装厂。据陈伟妻子刘长兰和刘长兰三兄刘斌向记者介绍，7月23日，陈伟搭乘上海开往福州的D301动车组回家，事故发生前，陈伟还给自己妻子打电话报过平安，让妻子在家做好好吃的等自己。后来，刘长兰和刘斌等打了好多电话没人接听。一直到温州市第二人民医院的工作人员看到陈伟手机上未接电话后才通知其家属。刘长兰于7月24日早晨从福州包了一辆出租车赶到温州。事后，铁路部门告诉陈伟家属：陈伟当时坐的是D301第1节车厢第5号座位。

　　这几天，陈伟被安排温州市第二人民医院ICU抢救，一直处于深度昏迷当中，其家属一直在医院等待奇迹的出现。据医生告诉家属，陈伟受伤最严重的主要是头部，其他还有多处骨折。

　　7月28日晚上10时30分左右，陈伟家属接到医院通知，让他们赶到医院。10时45分左右，陈伟家属接到通知，陈伟被宣布死亡。据陈伟家属告诉记者，当时，铁路部门和温州当地政府的工作人员都有在现场，双方还谈了相关赔偿事宜。(完)


----------



## desertpunk

*Shanghaiist*



> Propaganda bureau starts strangling media coverage of Wenzhou train crash
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the clampdown has begun.
> 
> According to leaked directives from the propaganda department on Friday: "All articles on the Wenzhou train collision are to be put off the homepage with immediate effect. None are to be put on the homepage itself. In the news section, only one article may be placed there, but no commentaries are allowed. Promoting the discussion of related topics on forums, blogs and microblogs are not allowed. Forum sites are to remove all previously promoted articles and blogposts off from the frontpage and mini-sites immediately. All posts, blogposts and microblog posts that do not meet with the requirements of this afternoon's orders are to be resolutely deleted. All sites are to implement this order with immediate effect, and to complete execution within half an hour. Checks will begin within half an hour."
> 
> All major web portals have already duly complied with the orders, and mini sites specially created earlier for the Wenzhou train collision have all but disappeared.
> 
> In a related development, the producer of the CCTV programme 24 Hours, Wang Qinglei (王青雷) is said to have been sacked after the airing of the July 25 show. In the segment, host Qiu Qiming (邱启明) asked these very pointed questions:
> 
> 
> "If nobody can be safe, do we still want this speed? Can we drink a glass of milk that's safe? Can we stay in an apartment that will not fall? Can the roads we travel on in our cities not collapse? Can we travel in safe trains? And if and when a major accident does happen, can we not be in a hurry to bury the trains? Can we afford the people a basic sense of security? China, please slow down. If you're too fast, you may leave the souls of your people behind."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wang Qinglei, producer of CCTV's "24 Hours", has been dismissed
> 
> It's not clear if Wang was dismissed for his part in crafting or approving the above script, or for his views expressed in one of his microblog posts which went viral on Sina Weibo, and was subsequently deleted. In it, he said:
> 
> "In every society, there are always a few what I call "baseline occupations", eg., teachers, doctors and journalists. If there is at least one teacher in this country who endeavours to set children the proper foundations, then this country still has hope. If there is at least one doctor who refuses to give preferential treatment by receiving bribes, then this country still has life. If there is at least one journalist who will not bow to the powers that be, then this country still has soul. China has lots of these!"
> 
> Another host Bai Yansong (白岩松), who has his own show "News 1+1" is also rumoured to be made to write a report after unusually critical remarks he made on air. The daily show was replaced with another programme for a day, sparking rumours that it had been cancelled, but it returned subsequently.
> 
> As for print media, the Economic Observer was praised yesterday for its bold (defiant?) feature entitled "Is there a miracle in Wenzhou?" even as other newspapers began consciously cutting back on coverage. The ten-page feature included such provocative articles as "What is the Ministry of Railways hiding?", "Please respect life", "Where the Ministry of Railways went wrong" and "The Ministry of Railways has a cold steely heart".
> 
> Even so, coverage of the Wenzhou train collision is expected to decline significantly in the print media from now, as the propaganda department cracks its whip and demands stricter toeing of the line.
> 
> As news of the media crackdown sparked fury and incredulity, some have called for the media to jointly defy the orders of the propaganda bureau. Zhang Xuezhong (张雪忠), lecturer at the East China University of Political Science and Law in Shanghai, called on the Chinese media to close ranks and work together to defend its dignity. He said, that if the media could join forces to act in accordance with their conscience, they might very well be changing the course of history.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ What worries me is that some bloggers and even SSC forumers (in other threads discussing the subject) show a kind of support for this ban, alleging that "high speed rail is still much safer than road" and that "the public doesn't need to be fed in sensationalist articles, leave it to the technicians".


----------



## hkskyline

Well, in an open society people will have a range of opinions. It's OK to either support or condemn the ban. The diversity in opinions is what makes discussion forums such as SSC worthwhile. Ultimately, those without sound supporting arguments will be ridiculed and silenced.


----------



## NCT

Another signal failure today, on the Shanghai - Nanjing PDL, causing delays of up to 1 hour.


----------



## WatcherZero

For the first time the Ministry of Railways has been unable to fully complete a bond sale, last month it offered Rmb20bn in medium term bonds but was only able to sell Rmb18.7bn. Standard Chartered decided to investigate and discovered that half of the Ministrys interest payments were being hidden. Last year MoR repaid 125bn in principal and piad 25bn in interest but this implies an interest rate of only 2% whereas the loans it had available to it from the Government, banks and development agencies offered interest rates of 4.5-6%. MoR has Rmb1,980bn ($300bn) worth of debt already, with only Rmb560bn of that accounted for by publicly-issued bonds. Most of the rest appears to be bank loans. So they wondered if interest payments were being falsely accounted as Capital investment. 

On paper the MoR makes a tiny profit of 15m Rmb a return on investment of 0.0005%. Whats really going on is 240bn Rmb a year is being transferred to the Railway Construction Fund (owned by the Ministry of Finance) and then returned as 'other funding' to avoid paying tax. Of this money in 2009/10 according to RCF accounts 155bn Rmb was invested in capital infrastructure such as rails and carriages, but in 2010/11 only 16bn was invested in Capital infrastructure the rest going on bank debt servicing, at the same time MoR debt increased by 92bn in the first quarter of this year alone.

The implication to institutional investors who examined the accounts when considering purchasing the bonds is that the MoR will be unable to honour its bonds long term and is a dangerous investment.


http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2011/08/01/639316/anatomy-of-a-failed-chinese-railway-bond/


----------



## TheAnalyst

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ What worries me is that some bloggers and even SSC forumers (in other threads discussing the subject) show a kind of support for this ban, alleging that *"high speed rail is still much safer than road"* and that "the public doesn't need to be fed in sensationalist articles, leave it to the technicians".


Which is true. I bet HSR's fatalities/passenger*km are orders of magnitude lower than road's.


----------



## hmmwv

Some updated and older pictures from the Shijiazhuang-Wuhan PDL, currently laying tracks preparing for a 2012 opening date.

warning pictures are large


----------



## stoneybee

hmmwv said:


> The party wants control, but not at the expense of business, so they will continue to tightly control state media while give private companies a little slack.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe there is an actual directive send out but probably not an strict ban on everything, news portals such as Sina knows how to find the compromise with the government, as part of it they took down the accident special report banner from its front page (the page is still easily accessible).


I would agree with you that there might very well be a directive (still yet to be confirmed) sent out on this. However, for peopel who don't know China that well, that is not at all the same as a crack down. There are directives being sent out every day and possibly on almost everything in China and most of them are being ignored or better selectively followed. A crack down is a totally different thing. Trust me, the government can shut down things very tight if they decided to do so, and that will be a crack down.


----------



## ironalbo

why the chinese HSR use many viaducts???


----------



## desertpunk

ironalbo said:


> why the chinese HSR use many viaducts???


Did you not see the marshiness of the terrain there? :nuts: With such incredibly varied topography, China is like Heaven for any civil engineer!


----------



## hmmwv

ironalbo said:


> why the chinese HSR use many viaducts???


Most of the newly constructed HSR lines are over 80% viaduct and tunnel. The heavy use of viaduct is due to a combination of reasons, such as easy grade separation, pedestrian, animal and vehicle crossing, overcome difficult terrain, and reduce land acquisition cost.


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## hmmwv

Hainan West Ring HSR approved and construction will start later this year. Length 344km, 13 stations, design speed is the same as East Ring at 250km/h, investment 27.1B RMB. Target completion 2015. One interest observation is that this is the only major rail project approved this year. On May 10th, MOR submitted the proposed status updates of 31 prospective projects to National Development and Reform Commission, the update requested that five projects to be retained, and Hainan West Ring is one of them.

海南西环铁路是今年来国家批准的唯一铁路项目

发布时间：2011-7-28 0:55:31 | 来源：国际旅游岛商报 | 作者：陈敬儒

商报讯（记者 陈敬儒 实习生 郑淑琪）昨天，商报记者从省有关方面获悉，日前，新建海南西环铁路可行性研究报告正式获国家发改委批复。这是今年以来国家批准的唯一铁路项目，建设标准与东环高铁一致。
新建海南西环铁路项目总投资271亿元，其中工程投资255.4亿元，机车车辆购置费15.6亿元。资金来源为：项目资本金占50％，为135.5亿元，其中铁道部承担资本金的70％，使用铁路建设基金和企业自有资金安排94.85亿元；海南省承担资本金的30％，由省财政资金出资安排40.65亿元。资本金以外的资金利用国内银行贷款解决。各出资方向海南东环铁路公司增资扩股，由该公司作为项目法人，负责本项目建设和经营管理。
新建西环铁路线路自海口站引出，沿西环高速公路经老城站、临高站、新盈站、洋浦站、棋子湾站、东方站、板桥站、尖峰站、九所站、崖城站、凤凰机场站至三亚站，正线全长344公里。线路等级为国铁Ⅰ级，与东环建设标准相同。正线数目为双线。规划输送能力为货运1000万吨/年，客运5000万人/年。建设工期为4年。
　 据介绍，西环铁建成后，将与东环铁形成环岛高铁，共设28个站点，覆盖全省12个市县，“后高铁效应”将有利于优化产业布局，带动县域经济协调发展。同时，高铁牵引动力为电力，没有废气排放，对海南建设生态省和节约型社会将发挥积极作用。
据了解，海南省委省政府主要领导多次就西环高铁与国家相关部委主要领导进行沟通协调，争取他们的理解和支持。海南省委、省政府的努力，得到了国家相关部委的充分认可和大力支持。5月10日，铁道部向国家发改委报送了对全国31个在办项目的梳理意见，共保留了5个项目，海南西环高铁列为保留的第一个项目。7月6日下午，国家发改委主任会议通过了西环高铁可研报告，这是今年到目前为止国家批准的唯一铁路项目。


----------



## AlexNL

hmmwv said:


> Some updated and older pictures from the Shijiazhuang-Wuhan PDL, currently laying tracks preparing for a 2012 opening date.
> 
> warning pictures are large
> Image
> 
> Image
> 
> Image
> 
> Image
> 
> Image
> 
> Image
> 
> Image


Beautiful pictures, but please resize them... they don't fit on my screen and loading takes ages over a mobile data connection.


----------



## hkskyline

*CSR delays shareholder meeting, cites effect of accident*
2011-08-04 13:42
China Daily

BEIJING - China South Locomotive and Rolling Stock Corp Ltd (CSR) said on Wednesday that it postponed a shareholder vote on an 11 billion yuan ($1.7 billion) fundraising plan, a move meant to give investors time to assess the effect of last month's fatal train crash.

CSR said in a statement it would defer the shareholder meeting, originally scheduled for Friday, until Sept 29 "because of the recent train crash and the negative effect from US Treasuries" as concerns about the US debt situation persist.

The company plans to provide further information to investors before the meeting, it said in the statement.

It intends to sell up to 1.83 billion shares at 6.02 yuan each to investors including the National Social Security Fund, with the proceeds to be used to build rolling stock for the country's high-speed railway network.

Analysts said the delay was intended to ease investors' concern that the accident might trigger a substantial slowdown in investment in China's ambitious railway construction program.

Shares of Shanghai-listed CSR fell 0.9 percent to 5.44 yuan on Wednesday.

The shares have fallen about 19 percent since the crash in East China on July 23.

The two trains involved in the accident were produced by CSR and its partners, Bombardier Inc and Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd.

Shenyin & Wangguo Securities Co Ltd last Monday downgraded their ratings for CSR to "neutral" from "recommend".

But China Galaxy Securities Co Ltd and China Fortune Securities Co Ltd last Thursday released reports with "recommend" ratings for CSR, saying recent contracts will guarantee the company's long-term prospects.

CSR said in a statement last Thursday that it signed contracts worth 6.89 billion yuan to build subway and passenger rail cars. It didn't disclose the customers.

Zhao Xiaochuang, an analyst with Century Securities Co Ltd, said that since CSR has stable contracts, and the share price is fairly low, the company still has long-term growth potential.

However, industry experts warned that the latest crash threatens to undermine the country's plan to export high-speed train technology.

Yang Hao, a professor in transportation with Beijing Jiaotong University, said Chinese rail exports would be affected as overseas clients might be doubtful about the quality and safety of the equipment.

CSR signed an agreement with General Electric Co in December to establish a 50-50 joint venture to manufacture high-speed trains in the United States, using China's technology, and to jointly explore the US high-speed railway market.

China has signed agreements for bilateral cooperation on railways with more than 30 countries since 2003, including the United States, Russia, Brazil, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Poland and India.

The country has adjusted its railway investments since the former minister of railways, Liu Zhijun, was removed from his position in a graft probe.

The Ministry of Railways announced in May that rail infrastructure investment would touch 600 billion yuan this year, down 100 billion yuan from earlier estimates.


----------



## WatcherZero

hmmwv said:


> This sentence is flaming at best, more like trolling.


What? The Minister of Railways himself said that the train construction contracts for the domestically developed trains specified maximum speeds of 300kmh, that they had misstated the maximum possible speed to keep up in prestige with foreign HSR rivals.


----------



## hmmwv

WatcherZero said:


> What? The Minister of Railways himself said that the train construction contracts for the domestically developed trains specified maximum speeds of 300kmh, that they had misstated the maximum possible speed to keep up in prestige with foreign HSR rivals.


Sheng Guangzu never said anything about the domestically developed trains are not designed for 350/380km/h operation, the fact that several lines still run 350km/h trains proves that. I see where you got that from though, that must be from a former engineer named Zhou Yimin, who left the ministry more than 10 years ago, and was never involved in China's current HSR planning. His original allegation is that China's contract with Siemens and Kawasaki were to buy kits and production licenses for trains with a 300km/h max speed, which is false itself because they only sold 250km/h trains, not 300km/h. That's the contract for the original D trains which only ran on 250km/h PDLs, not the likes of CRH380A. His other famous quotes including HSR going too fast will cause sonic boom, Beijing-Tianjin ICL observed 0.4m track sink, CRH5 is German, CRH380A can only sustain 350km/h momentarily, California has already signed contract with CSR to supply trains, etc.


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## WatcherZero

Sheng Guangzu, April 12th 2011. Couple of days before the announcement in Peoples Daily that it was due to economic reasons.


----------



## hmmwv

WatcherZero said:


> Sheng Guangzu, April 12th 2011. Couple of days before the announcement in Peoples Daily that it was due to economic reasons.


No he did not say that during his interview on April 12th. Please provide reference, otherwise it's just your opinion.


----------



## binhai

I just took a Beijing-Tianjin ICL train that was going at 335 km/h, didn't seem like there was any problem to me :dunno:


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## hmmwv

BarbaricManchurian said:


> I just took a Beijing-Tianjin ICL train that was going at 335 km/h, didn't seem like there was any problem to me :dunno:


Beijing-Tianjin ICL and Shanghai-Hangzhou PDL have maintained their original schedule with 350km/h trains.


----------



## Cancun

> Scores of people were killed by the recent crash of two high-speed trains near Wenzhou in Zhejiang province. Even before the accident, the intellectual property dispute between Japan and China over the technology used in China's new bullet trains was heated. Since the crash, it has come to a boil.
> 
> Japan, of course, was the first country to build "bullet" trains, and their safety record is enviable. The Shinkansen "super bullet" train, which was directly affected by Japan's devastating March earthquake, was able to resume services in April.
> 
> Since it began operating between Tokyo and Shin-Osaka in 1964, the Shinkansen has been a vital transport artery in Japan, and has suffered no fatal accidents. Let me repeat: not a single person has died in a Shinkansen accident.
> 
> Despite its technological lead and enviable record, Shinkansen trains were not exported overseas for decades. The first such technology transfer was the Taiwan High Speed Rail, which began operating in January 2007. As a result of a renewed emphasis on safety following an earthquake, the Taiwanese authorities decided to use Japanese technology for the rolling stock and a mixture of German and French technology for other facilities and operations.
> 
> Today, the great stage for the Shinkansen is China's vast territory. On June 30, the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway began operating. The rolling stock for China's CRH380A bullet train is based on technology from Kawasaki Heavy Industries, whereas the German company Siemens provided the technology for the CRH380B.
> 
> One reason Japan hesitated to export its high-speed rail technology was revealed by a JR Central Japan Railway official, who wanted to make its provision conditional upon the "country being politically stable and governed by the rule of law", and highlighted the importance of compliance with enforceable contracts that would guarantee intellectual property rights.
> 
> With these reservations in mind, JR East proceeded with the export of Shinkansen technology to China. Unfortunately, those fears have been vindicated. Immediately before the Beijing-Shanghai railway was built, the Chinese Ministry of Railways initiated international patent claims over the technology used in the CRH380A. It is believed that China has now filed for 21 patents under the Patent Co-operation Treaty.
> 
> Since 2003, China has filed for 1,902 patents related to high-speed railways. But the 21 recent applications are the first based on Japanese Shinkansen technology.
> 
> The content of the patent application will not become clear until the 18 months required for investigation has elapsed. But there is a strong view that the technology under application is an extension of that provided by either Japan or Germany, and the case could lead to a major IP dispute.
> 
> Infringement of intellectual property rights by China is one of the most vexing aspects of trade with the Chinese.
> 
> The market for Shinkansen technology is growing not only in China, but also in the United States and in emerging-market countries such as Brazil. With demand extremely large, international competition to build high-speed railway networks is becoming intense. And this competition concerns not only technology and speed, but also safety.
> 
> So long as protection of intellectual property rights in China is woefully inadequate, the high-speed rail market is likely to remain racked with heated disputes.
> 
> *In China, the rush to apply for patents is sometimes said to be about saving face with ordinary Chinese, who might well object to buying technology from abroad when China's government so often lauds home-grown technology. But China will lose even more face if it is shown to have pirated the Shinkansen technology that it now claims as its own.*
> 
> Yuriko Koike, Japan’s former Minister of Defense and National Security Adviser, is Chairman of the Executive Council of the Liberal Democratic Party.


http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/koike20/English


----------



## HunanChina

Guangzhou-Shenzhen CRH line test run

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjkxNzc1OTg4.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjkxNzc1NzIw.html


----------



## HunanChina

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjkxMzUyMTgw.html


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## HunanChina

Beijing South Railway Station is too small.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjkxNTgzMDg0.html


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## binhai

hmmwv said:


> Beijing-Tianjin ICL and Shanghai-Hangzhou PDL have maintained their original schedule with 350km/h trains.


Actually the top speed of BJ-TJ ICL is supposed to be 330km/h, they went over by a tiny bit though


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## desertpunk

*You Can Never Be Too Safe When Riding The Rails!*


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## hmmwv

HunanChina said:


> Beijing South Railway Station is too small.
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjkxNTgzMDg0.html


That's crazy man, I've been to Beijing South when it's just opened and thought it will never be filled. A friend of mine just returned from a trip to Shanghai yesterday and also mentioned similar situation at Hongqiao Station where people can barely find empty seats. Just imagine 10 years down the road they may have to think about increase capacities in these already enormous stations.


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## drunkenmunkey888

hmmwv said:


> That's crazy man, I've been to Beijing South when it's just opened and thought it will never be filled. A friend of mine just returned from a trip to Shanghai yesterday and also mentioned similar situation at Hongqiao Station where people can barely find empty seats. Just imagine 10 years down the road they may have to think about increase capacities in these already enormous stations.


And you still have foreign reporters trying to convince the public that China is over-investing in infrastructure that it doesn't need, and so creating an economic train-wreck about to happen... how these massive shiny train stations are empty at peak hours, etc... what a joke:lol:


----------



## 7freedom7

*Human error discovered at root of Wenzhou train crash*









_Sheng Guanzu, chief of China's Ministry of Railways, admitted that the train collision in Wenzhou was not caused by natural disaster. (Photo/Xinhua)_

China's national work-safety watchdog confirmed on Aug. 4 that the July 23 high-speed train crash in Wenzhou City, which claimed 40 lives, was in fact due to equipment failure and could not be deemed an 'act of god'. The final results of investigations into the accident will be announced a few days later.

After the train crash, at a meeting on Aug. 3, the Minister of Railways Sheng Guangzu ordered strict adherence to construction schedules and improved safety-checks for new railways.

In addition, according to the Beijing Times, China's State Administration of Work Safety (SAWS) also convened a meeting, Aug. 3, on work safety in the first half of this year.

Luo Lin, head of SAWS, said during the meeting that an accident investigation panel is looking thoroughly into the deadly train crash, and will decide who should be held accountable for it.

Subsequently, asked about the cause of the accident, Huang Yi, SAWS spokesman and chief engineer, said in an interview with the People's Daily Online, on Aug. 4, "*we can now say with certainty that the accident was not caused by a natural disaster, but was indeed a huge rail-transport accident. What's more, the railways ministry has also indicated loopholes and problems in safety management that have been exposed due to the accident.*"

In response to rumors of a "red line," referring to an upper limit of 35 that would be acknowledged by the government as death toll in any disaster, with further fatalities classified as "missing," Huang said, "As far as I am aware, there is no so-called mysterious red line."

According to Huang, the severity of accidents is classified based on their death tolls.


----------



## hmmwv

I think it's pretty obvious from the beginning that serious management issues is the root cause of this incident. The beauty of Root Cause Analysis is that you have to ask at least five whys, until there could be no other explanation. For example here the direct cause may be the lighting strike, but the root cause may be management's disregard of procedures. The system is only as good as the human who operate it, D trains have been running in eastern and southeastern China for four years and survived many thunderstorms, including a few Typhoons, so it's definitely designed for such environment. I suspect that there was a drive inside MOR to push local railway bureaus to keep their timetable amid recent high profile delays, which caused major embarrassment in the media. Yes there have been delays caused by severe weather in the past, but no accidents at all, I bet passengers rather have delayed trains than crashed ones.

It's good that State Administration of Work Safety is in charge of the investigation, taking over from MOR. SAWS is headed by a Communist Youth League faction guy who mainly worked in northern China, his deputy is a former airline pilot, so the conflict of interest and factions infighting may act as a crude check and balance in this investigation. I see dark days coming to the current MOR, but not necessarily for China railway in general.


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## urbanfan89

不管你相不相信，反正我是信了


----------



## maldini

hmmwv said:


> That's crazy man, I've been to Beijing South when it's just opened and thought it will never be filled. A friend of mine just returned from a trip to Shanghai yesterday and also mentioned similar situation at Hongqiao Station where people can barely find empty seats. Just imagine 10 years down the road they may have to think about increase capacities in these already enormous stations.


What is the load percentage for all the scheduled trains?
They need to take more pictures of these busy stations, and then refute the false claims made by those foreign reporters.


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## hmmwv

urbanfan89 said:


> 不管你相不相信，反正我是信了


It's a miracle :bash:


----------



## gramercy

hmmwv said:


> That's crazy man, I've been to Beijing South when it's just opened and thought it will never be filled. A friend of mine just returned from a trip to Shanghai yesterday and also mentioned similar situation at Hongqiao Station where people can barely find empty seats. Just imagine 10 years down the road they may have to think about increase capacities in these already enormous stations.


i think it's more likely that they will build more endpoints and shift the trains periodically


----------



## AlexNL

7freedom7 said:


> China's national work-safety watchdog confirmed on Aug. 4 that the July 23 high-speed train crash in Wenzhou City (...) The final results of investigations into the accident will be announced a few days later.


To me, this seems to be a bit quick. When a rail incident happens in the Netherlands (my home country), research takes over a year before final results are published. In China, this only takes a few weeks? Is the investigation thorough enough then?


----------



## hmmwv

AlexNL said:


> To me, this seems to be a bit quick. When a rail incident happens in the Netherlands (my home country), research takes over a year before final results are published. In China, this only takes a few weeks? Is the investigation thorough enough then?


Well do you actually expecting a independent investigation done like in Western countries? The final cause will be pretty easy to identify if it's indeed human error, but the issue is the political aspect. MOR and state council will have to release a result that will politically "harmonize" the society. I can almost bet that the final verdict will include all three causes, lighting strike, procedure violation by Wenzhou South dispatch, and CRSCD. That way everyone gets a slap on the wrist but no one will take the full blame.


----------



## hmmwv

gramercy said:


> i think it's more likely that they will build more endpoints and shift the trains periodically


The current Shanghai Station is quite some years old, and as D trains slowly replacing T and K trains the building is due for a major renovation to be optimized for HSR travel. If its capacity can be increased, Shanghai Station can absorb all trains on the Shanghai-Nanjing PDL (currently divided to Shanghai Station and Hongqiao). That way capacity at Hongqiao will be freed up, and the station will become a dedicated stop for the Shanghai-Beijing HSR. I don't think Shanghai South is anywhere near its capacity yet, it's exclusively for trains on the Southern route (i.e. Hangzhou direction). Another station, Shanghai East is in the planning phase, and when completed it will be dedicated for northern route trains (i.e. Nantong direction), and serving as the Disney terminal.

Right now if there is a need to relief congestion at Hongqiao the easiest and quickest way is to shift all Shanghai-Nanjing PDL traffic to Shanghai and Shanghai West.


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## sasalove

广深港高铁2011年8月底通车 GZ-SZ-HK High Speed Rail Opens End of 2011/08


----------



## hkskyline

*China's State Council orders safety checks on high-speed rails, slower running speeds*
2011-08-10 19:21:44 
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-08/10/c_131041406.htm










BEIJING, Aug. 10 (Xinhua) -- The State Council, or the Cabinet, on Wednesday ordered safety checks on high-speed railways and slower running speeds.

The decision was made at an executive meeting of the State Council, which was presided over by Premier Wen Jiabao, in the wake of a deadly bullet train crash that killed 40 people.

The safety checks cover high-speed railways that are both in operation and under construction, said a statement released after the meeting.

The State Administration of Work Safety will lead the inspection on equipment quality, operation safety, and design and quality of rails under construction, the statement said.

The statement also ordered newly-built high-speed rails to run at slower speeds during the initial stages for safety and improvement in techniques and management.

The government will reevaluate the system safety on rail projects that have received government approval but have not commenced construction, the statement said, requiring a halt of approval of new railway projects.


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## Attus

Can anyone tell me when was the line built where the recent crash happened?


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## SamuraiBlue

*China train maker halts production*
*http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/10_17.html*



> A major Chinese manufacturer of train cars used for a new high-speed service between Shanghai and Beijing has suspended production.
> 
> The 21st Century Business Herald, a Chinese financial newspaper, reported the news in its Tuesday's edition, citing a string of technological problems.
> 
> The paper said the Shanghai-Beijing service, which opened on June 30th, uses 2 different train cars: Type A based on Japanese technology and the German-based Type B.
> 
> The newspaper said 38 cases of problems in the cars have been reported in the first month after the start of the train service, 37 of them involving Type B.
> 
> Type B cars were made by 2 manufacturers, but most of the problems reportedly occurred on those made by Changchun Railway Vehicles.
> 
> The newspaper quoted a railway official as saying that the company has suspended production.
> 
> Chinese railway authorities had boasted that the high-speed train was developed solely by China, and that the nation achieved the world's highest level of technology.
> 
> However, the train service connecting the 2 cities has been plagued with problems. The collision of 2 trains in Zhejiang Province last month killed 40 people, undermining public trust in the safety of the service.


Don't know the validity of the story anyone else care to verify?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> *China's State Council orders safety checks on high-speed rails, slower running speeds*
> 2011-08-10 19:21:44
> http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-08/10/c_131041406.htm
> BEIJING, Aug. 10 (Xinhua) -- The State Council, or the Cabinet, on Wednesday ordered safety checks on high-speed railways and slower running speeds.
> 
> The decision was made at an executive meeting of the State Council, which was presided over by Premier Wen Jiabao, in the wake of a deadly bullet train crash that killed 40 people.
> 
> The safety checks cover high-speed railways that are both in operation and under construction, said a statement released after the meeting.
> 
> The State Administration of Work Safety will lead the inspection on equipment quality, operation safety, and design and quality of rails under construction, the statement said.
> 
> The statement also ordered newly-built high-speed rails to run at slower speeds during the initial stages for safety and improvement in techniques and management.


What shall be the speed of Guangzhou-Longhua high speed railway eventually, and what shall be the speed on opening this month?


----------



## sasalove

chornedsnorkack said:


> What shall be the speed of Guangzhou-Longhua high speed railway eventually, and what shall be the speed on opening this month?


Current 350kph route will decrease to 300kph so Wuhan Guangzou Shenzhen will run 300kph. Other 250kph routes will now run 200kph. 200kph routes will now run 160kph.


----------



## Arnorian

> *Wenzhou crash: China freezes new rail projects*
> 11 August 2011 Last updated at 07:05 GMT
> 
> The BBC's Martin Patience says there was "huge public anger" after a recent crash that killed 40 people
> 
> Chinese officials have ordered a temporary halt on new high-speed rail projects, as the fallout continues from last month's fatal crash near Wenzhou.
> 
> The State Council said the safety of new projects would be re-evaluated before approval could be given.
> 
> Safety checks would also be carried out on existing lines, and speed limits would be put in place.
> 
> The government's handling of the Wenzhou crash, which killed 40 people, caused widespread anger.
> 
> An official diktat ordering journalists in state-run media groups not to investigate the causes of the crash was leaked on the internet, leading to allegations of a cover-up.
> 
> And a government order was leaked advising local lawyers that they needed authorisation to take on compensation cases of victims.
> 
> The high-speed rail network is one of the country's flagship projects.
> 
> But critics have accused the government of ignoring safety warnings in its rush to complete the construction.
> 
> The State Council announced its review of safety after a meeting chaired by Premier Wen Jiabao on Wednesday.
> 
> "We will suspend for the time being the examination and approval of new railway construction projects," the council said in a statement.
> 
> But the council added: "China will unswervingly continue its development of high-speed railways."
> 
> On Thursday the country's biggest rail construction firm, China Railway Group, announced it had dropped a plan to raise about 6.2bn yuan ($970m; £600m) through a share placement.
> 
> "Given changes in the country's macro policy, there have been uncertainties in regulatory approvals," the firm said in a statement.
> 
> The Railways Ministry is still investigating the cause of the crash, but regional rail officials have said a signalling failure was responsible.


Source: BBC


----------



## chornedsnorkack

sasalove said:


> Current 350kph route will decrease to 300kph so Wuhan Guangzou Shenzhen will run 300kph.


Wuhan-Guangzhou was 350 km/h, but already was slowed to 300 km/h as of 1st of July.

Shall it be slowed further, or continue at 300 km/h?


----------



## sasalove

chornedsnorkack said:


> Wuhan-Guangzhou was 350 km/h, but already was slowed to 300 km/h as of 1st of July.
> 
> Shall it be slowed further, or continue at 300 km/h?


According to be news 300kph is maintained


----------



## stingstingsting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9L2qjSqBNA


----------



## Nozumi 300

Anyone know if these latest incidents will have any impact on the production/rollout of the CRH380D? Does anyone have any latest info on their development?


----------



## hmmwv

SamuraiBlue said:


> Don't know the validity of the story anyone else care to verify?


Yes that report is more or less accurate, CNR Changchun is delaying delivery of 17 CRH380BL trainsets pending internal investigation of several problems they discovered during their QC runs in late July early August. So far it's limited to CRH380BLs made by Changchun, no delivery delays reported at another CRH380BL maker, Tangshan. The problems cited includes false axle temp alarms, traction system signal interruption causing protection system to reduce locomotion, and automatic pantograph disengaging due to switch malfunction. CNR said the involved components are a mix of foreign and domestic sources, and they all passed QC when received, suggesting compatibility issues. However it's unclear why Tangshan isn't affected, possibly because their CRH380BL has a slightly different design.


----------



## Restless

hmmwv said:


> Yes that report is more or less accurate, CNR Changchun is delaying delivery of 17 CRH380BL trainsets pending internal investigation of several problems they discovered during their QC runs in late July early August. So far it's limited to CRH380BLs made by Changchun, no delivery delays reported at another CRH380BL maker, Tangshan. The problems cited includes false axle temp alarms, traction system signal interruption causing protection system to reduce locomotion, and automatic pantograph disengaging due to switch malfunction. CNR said the involved components are a mix of foreign and domestic sources, and they all passed QC when received, suggesting compatibility issues. However it's unclear why Tangshan isn't affected, possibly because their CRH380BL has a slightly different design.


Don't forget that Changchun are a new factory. Tangshan has been building HS trains for years now.


----------



## Suburbanist

Hopefully this will latest developments will put Europe and North America in alert for this unsafe and cheating (stolen intellectual property) trains.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

hmmwv said:


> The problems cited includes false axle temp alarms, traction system signal interruption causing protection system to reduce locomotion, and automatic pantograph disengaging due to switch malfunction. CNR said the involved components are a mix of foreign and domestic sources, and they all passed QC when received, suggesting compatibility issues. However it's unclear why Tangshan isn't affected, possibly because their CRH380BL has a slightly different design.


This simply does not make sense.
If it used the same components and manufactured under the same series then the design should also be the same or it would make maintenance extremely difficult after delivery.


----------



## WatcherZero

> *Outrage at Wenzhou disaster pushes China to suspend bullet train project
> 
> By Clifford Coonan in Hong Kong
> *
> 
> China has put the brakes on its flagship high-speed rail project, freezing approval of new railway schemes and halting some bullet train manufacturing after a crash last month that killed 40 people and dented public confidence in the government.
> 
> 
> Since the collision on 23 July, the Chinese government has been accused of putting the desire to modernise and innovate ahead of safety, with critics saying the system is too expensive and too dangerous.
> 
> The crash happened when one bullet train was stopped on a viaduct near the eastern city of Wenzhou after a lightning strike and another high-speed train ploughed into it. The accident has been blamed on faulty signalling equipment. "We will suspend for the time being the examination and approval of new railway construction projects," said the State Council, or cabinet.
> 
> The Railways Minister also promised a nationwide safety inspection and announced further reductions in the top speed of bullet trains following cuts in April. "This accident exposed the weaknesses lying in the railway transportation safety and management," admitted Sheng Guangzu in comments on the council's website. A state-owned manufacturer said it would suspend production of its high-speed trains used on the Beijing-Shanghai line while it investigates equipment failures. China North Locomotive and Rolling Stock gave no further details but the official Xinhua News Agency said trains "abnormally stopped" on three occasions due to faulty sensor signals.
> 
> The level of public outrage in reaction to the crash was intense. It was so powerful that even China's official media got in on the act. The normally placid People's Daily newspaper, which is effectively the Communist Party mouthpiece, wrote that China did not need "blood-soaked GDP".
> 
> The decision to put the project on ice came after an executive meeting of the State Council, which was presided over by Premier Wen Jiabao. The high-speed rail system is a prestige project for the Communist Party, designed to showcase China's innovative abilities and technological prowess, and Beijing insists the project is still a runner. "China will unswervingly continue its development of high-speed railways," the government said.
> 
> The project was one of the largest recipients of the trillions of yuan made available by the Chinese government for infrastructure projects after the economic crisis of 2008.
> 
> But the national rail system has been soaked in controversy. Before last month's crash, Mr Sheng's predecessor, Liu Zhijun, was sacked in February over corruption charges, after he allegedly took more than 800 million yuan (£77m) in kickbacks over several years on contracts linked to the high-speed network.
> 
> Mr Sheng told Xinhua that routes with a designed maximum speed of 350kph (220mph) will now run at 300kph. Beijing has also shelved plans to expand the high-speed network to 13,000km of railway by the end of this year. China launched its bullet trains in 2007. By the end of 2010, 8,358km of high-speed railways had been put into operation, ranking China first in the world in terms of length.
> 
> Premier Wen was forced to make a public statement that he was too sick to visit the accident site immediately after the accident – his absence had sparked widespread public anger. Known as "Grandpa Wen" for his comforting appearances at times of national stress, Mr Wen promised a full and frank investigation into the crash, but the damage had been done.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-to-suspend-bullet-train-project-2336254.html

Same story in the Scotsman http://news.scotsman.com/news/China-puts-the-brakes-on.6817204.jp

And news from Steel Industry Briefing (subscription) that they have stopped manufacture of steel rails.

Now im not surprised all the linespeed reductions (which started before the crash with the corruption scandal) have continued, there were serious under speccing and misrepresentation of lines technological limits. However I am surprised that the crash has had such a political impact when higher casualty mining accidents happen several times a year.


----------



## Nexis

Suburbanist said:


> Hopefully this will latest developments will put Europe and North America in alert for this unsafe and cheating (stolen intellectual property) trains.


We never stolen anything , they stolen the designs from us....


----------



## WatcherZero

54 trains to be recalled.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-08/12/c_131045456.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14501078


----------



## Suburbanist

Nexis said:


> We never stolen anything , they stolen the designs from us....


That is what I meant. Chinese stole patent-protected and industrial secrets from Western rail companies. Siemens was the one hit most.


----------



## hmmwv

WatcherZero said:


> there were serious under speccing and misrepresentation of lines technological limits.


Man I don't know why you kept on saying this, unless you just hate the idea that China can have HSR. I have pointed out your mistake for saying that rail minister said the lines were designed for 300km/h several days ago, yet here you are still spreading lies.



WatcherZero said:


> 54 trains to be recalled.
> 
> http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-08/12/c_131045456.htm
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14501078


So far it's limited to CRH380BLs made by CNR Changchun, but I have a feeling that the recall will spread to other CNR plants. There is a potential that CSR will be impacted later too, note the same problem cited in the recall also occurred before on CSR-made CRH380As as well.


----------



## hmmwv

Suburbanist said:


> Hopefully this will latest developments will put Europe and North America in alert for this unsafe and cheating (stolen intellectual property) trains.


In alert for what? Chinese trains will never have any chance of winning any contracts in EU or NA anyway, regardless of what has happened recently. Just like there will be zero chance for ARJ21 or C919 to get into Western market even if they get FAA approval. The Chinese trains don't even have significant cost advantage over European designs, and the latter are generally more mature and have better support infrastructure, what would anybody pick Chinese ones.


----------



## hkskyline

Suburbanist said:


> That is what I meant. Chinese stole patent-protected and industrial secrets from Western rail companies. Siemens was the one hit most.


Yet Siemens issued notes like the following about them selling trains to China, seemingly like any other business deal :

http://www.siemens.com/press/en/pressrelease/?press=/en/pressrelease/2008/mobility/tstr200803015.htm

http://www.siemens.com/innovation/e.../infrastructures_articles/high_speed_rail.htm

So selling and stealing are same things?


----------



## hmmwv

hkskyline said:


> Yet Siemens issued notes like the following about them selling trains to China, seemingly like any other business deal :
> 
> http://www.siemens.com/press/en/pressrelease/?press=/en/pressrelease/2008/mobility/tstr200803015.htm
> 
> http://www.siemens.com/innovation/e.../infrastructures_articles/high_speed_rail.htm
> 
> So selling and stealing are same things?


I think the dispute is not whether licence production of CRH3 is legal, Siemens is happy about that deal and never complained about it. The problem is when CNR and CSR started filing for international patents on certain CRH380A/B technologies which Siemens claims are theirs. If the patents are approved, trains carry those patents can be exported, which Siemens doesn't want to see it happen, and was never part of the license production agreement.


----------



## hans280

hmmwv said:


> In alert for what? Chinese trains will never have any chance of winning any contracts in EU or NA anyway, regardless of what has happened recently.


You might have to eat your words, mhhwv, and perhaps sooner thank you think. Chinese manufacturers have already sold locs in Australia and New Zealand, and other rolling stock in France. I grant you it was not high-speed equipment. 

Also, what you said about "never having any chance" was what we used to say about the Japanese manufacturers of shinkansen trains. And, look what happened to Hitachi in the UK.


----------



## Svartmetall

Suburbanist said:


> That is what I meant. Chinese stole patent-protected and industrial secrets from Western rail companies. Siemens was the one hit most.


If you make posts like this, you need to post evidence to back up your claims. If you make unfounded accusations then I'm afraid I can only interpret such posts as trolling.


----------



## hkskyline

hmmwv said:


> I think the dispute is not whether licence production of CRH3 is legal, Siemens is happy about that deal and never complained about it. The problem is when CNR and CSR started filing for international patents on certain CRH380A/B technologies which Siemens claims are theirs. If the patents are approved, trains carry those patents can be exported, which Siemens doesn't want to see it happen, and was never part of the license production agreement.


But Siemens can definitely appeal to stop the patents from being granted. Have they done so or launched other legal action?


----------



## hmmwv

hans280 said:


> You might have to eat your words, mhhwv, and perhaps sooner thank you think. Chinese manufacturers have already sold locs in Australia and New Zealand, and other rolling stock in France. I grant you it was not high-speed equipment.
> 
> Also, what you said about "never having any chance" was what we used to say about the Japanese manufacturers of shinkansen trains. And, look what happened to Hitachi in the UK.


At least it's not gonna happen before Chinese cars are sold here (BYD fleet sale to CA doesn't count), and people have been talking about that for ages. You mentioned Australia and New Zealand, but that's not HSR, which is what we have been discussing. Who said anything about Shinkansens not having chances? They are the pioneer of HSR so I'm actually surprised it's not widely exported. I believe one issue they had before is that Europeans don't trust Shinkansen's crashworthiness, the recent crash in China has proven that the E2 is designed extremely well in that regard.


----------



## hmmwv

hkskyline said:


> But Siemens can definitely appeal to stop the patents from being granted. Have they done so or launched other legal action?


I don't think they have officially launched any legal action, part of the reason is that the patents in questions were reportedly only "based" on Siemens technology, not copied or even derived, so the vague definition is the main point of dispute. Also they would not want to risk future business relationship with MOR, since they are still a major partner in areas of signalling and train subsystems, not just in HSR but rail in general.


----------



## Suburbanist

Svartmetall said:


> If you make posts like this, you need to post evidence to back up your claims. If you make unfounded accusations then I'm afraid I can only interpret such posts as trolling.


Okay. I thought the Siemens-Chinese controversy about reexporting technologies that were part of their exclusive license agreement were facts of public knowledge. I will get some time this weekend and try to build the case, then.


----------



## hmmwv

WatcherZero said:


> Just heard another 18 CSR trains (dont know the model) have been pulled from service, and a magazines (Caixin Century Magazine ) alleging that it wasnt the safety systems failures publically said to be the culprit that caused the BL trains to be recalled, the workers found a 7.1mm long, 2.4mm high crack on an axle and Ministry safety rules state that if a crack longer than 2mm is found they must be withdrawn from service.


Haven't heard anything about a possible CSR recall. Regarding the crack that is correct, it was found on July 15th, since July there are two records indicating axle was recommended to be replaced because it didn't pass regular inspection. It's the hallow axle in the driving car closest to the gearbox. The axles were manufactured by Zhibo Lucchini Railway Equipment Co. A joint venture between Zhibo and the Italian Lucchini company, also partially owned by the woman who was connected in Liu Zhijun's case. The company supplies over 60% of HSR axles in China. Currently Ma'anshan Steel is working with MOR to develop a domestic axle replacement.



WatcherZero said:


> The head of the Signalling Technology company which took the blame for the crash has died of a heart attack just as the inspection team arrived at the building, he had no previous health problems.


He actually died in Shenzhen while accompanying the State Council team on a inspection tour of the Guangzhou-Hongkong HSR.


----------



## WatcherZero

Reuters is saying 


> Ma Cheng, the 55-year-old chairman of the board at China Railway Signal & Communication Corp., collapsed at his office on Monday as investigators arrived at the company


Perhaps the others were recalled as they used the same axles.


----------



## hmmwv

WatcherZero said:


> Reuters is saying


There was a correction and apology issued after the initial report. It also stated that many websites used the Caixin article without permission, maybe that's why Reuters didn't get the correction notification.

2011年8月24日上午，中国铁路通信信号集团公司董事长马骋的遗体告别仪式在深圳市殡仪馆进行。8月22日，马骋在深圳进行项目安全检查时，因心脏病突发去世，时年55岁。作为“7·23”动车事故线路列控设备提供商，事故发生后，通号集团成为众矢之的。

By staff reporter Yu Ning and Cao Haoli 08.23.2011 19:39
China Railway Signal Chairman Dies of Heart Attack
CRSC Chair Ma Cheng was one of the leading engineers in the development of communications technology for China's high-speed railways


(Beijing) – The Chairman of China Railway Signal and Communication Corp. (CRSC) died of a sudden heart attack on the morning of August 22, during a visit from the State Council's safety inspection team in Shenzhen.

(Ma Cheng. /CRSC Website)
Ma Cheng, former general manager of CRSC, became the company's chairman following its restructuring at the end of 2010. Ma was considered one of the leading engineers in signaling technology for China's high-speed railways.
A source close to Ma said, "He was dealing with a lot of pressure and responsibility. Ma did not have a medical history of heart disease but the autopsy confirmed that it was a sudden heart attack. He was a senior professional in the railway signal engineering industry."
The state-owned company CRSC, one of three enterprises owned by the Ministry of Railways, oversaw integration of the signaling system on the railway where the July 23 train crash occurred and 57 similar projects nationwide.
CRSC and its subsidiary China CREC Railway Electrification Bureau Group jointly signed a 500 million yuan contract in 2008 with the Zhejiang Coastal Railway Co., a company financially backed by local authorities. The contract set out to create a communication system along the railway for 500 million yuan, which included the construction of an electricity grid, power supplies and a signaling system. The contractor CRSC and its affiliate were the main parties responsible for the design, production and engineering of communication lines and signals, in which the signal malfunctioning on July 23 was found to be one of the major causes leading to the deadly accident, which killed at least 40 people and injured more than 190.
Propelled by the rapid expansion of high-speed rail infrastructure, CRSC saw revenues double in five years and profits triple. The company hoped to go public next year, Caixin learned.
"The July 23 accident was definitely a preventable accident due to human negligence that should not have occurred," the general engineer and spokesman of China's State Administration of Work Safety, Huang Yi told Xinhuanet.com, a news portal run by the official Xinhua News Agency on the same day of the chairman's death.

Issued Correction from Caixin:

编辑更正
2011年08月23日 18:38　 本文来源于财新网 订阅《新世纪》 | 注册财新网
　　财新网在8月23日刊登了“通号集团董事长马骋突然去世”一文。文章提到“昨天（8月22日）上午，7·23事故检查组到中国铁路通信信号集团公司（下称通号集团）检查时，董事长马骋心脏病突发去世”，此处有误。

　　马聘是在深圳陪同国务院高速铁路安全大检查组检查广深港客专铁路时去世的。马骋为通号集团总经理、通号股份董事长。

　　特此更正，并向死者家属、读者致歉！

　　此文刊出后，在互联网上有很多转载，绝大部分未经财新网授权。请转载的网站协助更正。


----------



## Mika Montwald

*Sold-Out Beijing Shanghai Trains Show Riders Unfazed*

*Sold-Out Beijing Shanghai Trains Show Riders Unfazed*


Link: *Bloomberg*
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...-trains-show-passengers-unfazed-by-crash.html


^^



> Dong Hua, a sales executive from Zhejiang waiting in a ticket line at Beijing South station. The eight counters selling high-speed train tickets had lines of 20- 30 people each.
> 
> Dong has taken the bullet train to Shanghai at least four times since services started June 30 and said he prefers it over planes.
> 
> 
> 
> Nawrot, 24 was unfazed by the accident, saying he believes Chinese trains are safer ... ...
> 
> 
> it’s futuristic,” he said as the digital speedometer on the wall showed 300 kph. “The shape of the train, the color, the surroundings, it’s like a sci-fi movie.”


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

^^

People who thought that China's HSR was over have been proven to be wrong. The HSR is reality and will continue to be so in China. An accident doesn't stop people from travelling, does people stop flying just because a airplane crash?

Actually I think that it's good that the train crash happened at this early stage of the development of the network because otherwise it would have happened sooner or later. It is a ringing bell for the authorities to put safety as top priority in the future just as with the SARS-epidemic was a ringing bell for the emergency and disease prevention.


----------



## z0rg

Given the tremendous demographic density of the coastal regions I wonder if they'll have to build double lines. You can expand airports without limits, but railways have a maximum capacity.


----------



## Luli Pop

They still can go up...

Why not double decker trains like in France?


----------



## hkskyline

^ Wouldn't there be a lot of air resistance from such a tall train?


----------



## Silly_Walks

hkskyline said:


> ^ Wouldn't there be a lot of air resistance from such a tall train?


Not if you streamline it properly 


The world speed record for railed trains was done with a doubledecker


----------



## gramercy

z0rg said:


> Given the tremendous demographic density of the coastal regions I wonder if they'll have to build double lines. You can expand airports without limits, but railways have a maximum capacity.


i dont think theyll double it, i think there are enough large cities in between the gaps to build lines 50-100 kms parallel to these lines

or maglev tubes :banana:


----------



## AlexNL

Luli Pop said:


> They still can go up...
> 
> Why not double decker trains like in France?


So far the only company that has experience with double deck high speed trains, is Alstom. Which company is practically not representative in the Chinese high speed market? Alstom (next to CRH5 which is a New Pendolino).

With modern signalling systems, it should be possible to run a HST every 3 minutes. That's 20 high speed trains an hour per track. So I think for the forseeable future, the demand for even more capacity than that will be non-existant.


----------



## dumbfword

AlexNL said:


> So far the only company that has experience with double deck high speed trains, is Alstom. Which company is practically not representative in the Chinese high speed market? Alstom (next to CRH5 which is a New Pendolino).
> 
> With modern signalling systems, it should be possible to run a HST every 3 minutes. That's 20 high speed trains an hour per track. So I think for the forseeable future, the demand for even more capacity than that will be non-existant.


Japan has two bi-level (double decker) high speed trains running. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E1_Series_Shinkansen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E4_Series_Shinkansen


----------



## Pansori

It is interesting to compare the seating capacities of trains.

Alstom TGV Duplex (10 cars including 2 power cars): 545, other source says 512
CRH380A (8 cars): 494
CRH3C (8 cars): 556
CRH380AL (16 cars): 1066

Source: Wikipedia

Therefore double decker trains are hardly a viable solution because they give a rather low addition in passenger capacity. Existing capacity should be enough for a while. Perhaps adding an extra carriage could be a workable and more effective solution? Does anyone know what are the longest trains that could be accommodated by CRH stations? Currently the longest trains have 16 cars. What about, say 18 or 20 car long trains?


----------



## SamuraiBlue

Pansori said:


> It is interesting to compare the seating capacities of trains.
> 
> Alstom TGV Duplex (10 cars including 2 power cars): 545, other source says 512
> CRH380A (8 cars): 494
> CRH3C (8 cars): 556
> CRH380AL (16 cars): 1066
> 
> Source: Wikipedia


You're comparing apples with oranges since TGVs are connected with a Jacobs bogies making the cars inherently shorter that normal train cars. 
The E4 series shikansen is a 8 cars arrangement with 817 seats although it has a larger loading gauge compared to European counterparts.


----------



## Attus

SamuraiBlue said:


> You're comparing apples with oranges since TGVs are connected with a Jacobs bogies making the cars inherently shorter that normal train cars.
> The E4 series shikansen is a 8 cars arrangement with 817 seats although it has a larger loading gauge compared to European counterparts.


A 10 car TGV Duplex train is exactly 200m long, just like 8 car CRH380A (the latter one is 203m, the difference is so small that can be ignored). So it is a proper comparison. 
However, trains in Europe usually have 2+2 seats in a row while Chinese ones have, AFAIK, 2+3 in second class. It makes about 20% difference.


----------



## Momo1435

Using a simple calculation, not looking at 1st and 2nd class differences you can come up with the following numbers:

The TGV has 4 seats per row while the wider CHR has 5 seats (around 20% more capacity per meter). The TGV also has 2 power cars, reducing the capacity per meter by 20% in a 200m long train. This means that the 200m long single deck TGV should have about 40% less capacity then a 200m long CHR. In reality this difference is just 30%, this would suggest that a design with shorter cars and Jacobs bogies actually results in more capacity per meter. 

Turning this in an actual simplified calculation, using a 60% capacity increase for double deck over single deck trains actually shows this: 

CHR = 500 seats - 40% = 300 
300 + 60% = 480 seats on the TGV Duplex. 

This is very comparable with Pansori's numbers.


If you compare the Shinkansen E4 with the TGV Duplex you see that's the capacity difference is closer to the 40% then the difference between a single deck TGV with the CHR. And it should be noted that the E4 also has sections where there are 6 seats per row, this means that the difference should actually be bigger then 40%.

You have to keep in mind that a double decker EMU also has to house the traction and related equipment in the cars, and not under the cars like a single deck EMU. This means that space inside the train has to be used that could otherwise be used to seat passengers. The TGV doesn't have this problem since the equipment is all in the power cars. 

A Double Deck CRH could be a solution to increase capacity, but it won't be as big as some might expect. Maybe if Alstom develops an AGV Duplex we will see a bigger capacity increase over the single deck train. Although it will still be with the small loading gauge. Making it bigger will add more weight, making it less viable to be used as a high speed train. We already have seen that Japan stopped the development of the double deck Shinkansen after the E4. Maybe in the future with a further development of light weight composite materials we could see new developments.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

gramercy said:


> i dont think theyll double it, i think there are enough large cities in between the gaps to build lines 50-100 kms parallel to these lines


The old line Guangzhou-Shenzhen certainly was made four track. What about old Shanghai-Nanjing railway?

But parallel lines are good idea. The now Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway makes a detour through Nanjing, Xuzhou and Jinan.

Could it be a good idea to build a high speed railway Shanghai-Nantong-Lianyungang-Zibo-Beijing?


----------



## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> The old line Guangzhou-Shenzhen certainly was made four track. What about old Shanghai-Nanjing railway?
> 
> But parallel lines are good idea. The now Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway makes a detour through Nanjing, Xuzhou and Jinan.
> 
> Could it be a good idea to build a high speed railway Shanghai-Nantong-Lianyungang-Zibo-Beijing?


What would be a good idea is to standardise and simplify routes for a start. For example, Shanghai - Nanjing would look like this:

Commuter services and freight on classic line,
Major cities only on the ICL,
Long-distance lines with Shanghai - Nanjing non-stop on the HSL.

This way there is no speed differential and rogue stopping trains eating up train paths maximising line capacity utilisation. However, with all the intermediate stations built this is (politically) nigh-on impossible.


----------



## Mika Montwald

NCT said:


> ... ...
> 
> However, with all the intermediate stations built this is (politically) nigh-on impossible.



That sentence puzzled me. 

Why is building intermediate stations impossible (politically)?

Could you please explain?


----------



## AlexNL

dumbfword said:


> Japan has two bi-level (double decker) high speed trains running.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E1_Series_Shinkansen
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E4_Series_Shinkansen


Oops, you are right. I stand corrected.


Momo1435 said:


> Maybe if Alstom develops an AGV Duplex we will see a bigger capacity increase over the single deck train.


There are rumours that Alstom is indeed developing a double deck version of the AGV. However, this is unconfirmed.


----------



## 7freedom7

These seats look quite cozy and safe, maybe take the inspiration from Smart Fortwo


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Traffic*

Now that some trains are being checked for defects and the number of daily trains Beijing-Shanghai has been cut to 66, do business class seats sell out?

Are any trains due to complete their check, or any completely new built trains due for delivery?

I hear that around 1st of October, there is a Golden Week holiday. Are large numbers of Chinese planning to travel then? And is CRH planning to expand services ahead of 1st of October?


----------



## TsLeng

hmmwv said:


> That faucet is definitely retro looking. Maybe automatic dispensing ones should be used for both hygiene and water conservation purposes.


First thing to my mind as well! 
One forgetful user and no more water for the rest of the day? :bash: 

The business seats look absolutely comfy.


----------



## Mika Montwald

hmmwv said:


> That faucet is definitely ... .... Maybe automatic dispensing ones should be used for both hygiene and water conservation purposes.





TsLeng said:


> First thing to my mind as well!
> One forgetful user and no more water for the rest of the day? :bash:
> 
> The business seats look absolutely comfy.



Frankly, Product Designers in China are seriously lacking "Thoughtfulness on their Designs" 
most of the time, especially true with toilet / washroom designs. 

As if they are intentionally treating toilet / washroom designs as some kind of awful lepers. 

hno:


----------



## TsLeng

Mika Montwald said:


> Frankly, Product Designers in China are seriously lacking "Thoughtfulness on their Designs"
> most of the time, especially true with toilet / washroom designs.
> 
> As if they are intentionally treating toilet / washroom designs as some kind of awful lepers.
> 
> hno:


Sweeping generalisation? :lol:

Anyways, is this tap design only in first/exec class? Maybe they trust those there to always close the tap, properly. :nuts: 

But small matter, they can be changed quite easily to automatic taps when they realise there is no more water available with a few hours of journey time before they can refill which will cause some not very happy passengers to make a fuss LOL


----------



## Restless

Mika Montwald said:


> Frankly, Product Designers in China are seriously lacking "Thoughtfulness on their Designs"
> most of the time, especially true with toilet / washroom designs.
> 
> As if they are intentionally treating toilet / washroom designs as some kind of awful lepers.
> 
> hno:


Did product design even exist in Chinese universities 10years ago?


----------



## riles28

I'm just curios what happened to the plan that CRH will built a train can run up to 500 km/h and the CRH6, this plan are still active or postponed due to accident?


----------



## AlexNL

riles28 said:


> I'm just curios what happened to the plan that CRH will built a train can run up to 500 km/h and the CRH6, this plan are still active or postponed due to accident?


Well, all CRH trains have been slowed down after the previous minister of railways got fired (this was already planned before the Wenzhou crash). The current minister further reduced speeds after the crash due to safety concerns. 

I think a 500 km/h CRH is further away than it ever has been.


----------



## Fan Railer

riles28 said:


> I'm just curios what happened to the plan that CRH will built a train can run up to 500 km/h and the CRH6, this plan are still active or postponed due to accident?


as far as we know, the CRH6 is still on schedule.


----------



## yaohua2000




----------



## CarlosBlueDragon

yaohua2000 said:


>


amazing your handycam is very good job..!! kay:


----------



## yaohua2000

CarlosBlueDragon said:


> amazing your handycam is very good job..!! kay:


Not mine.


----------



## Arul Murugan

AlexNL said:


> Well, all CRH trains have been slowed down after the previous minister of railways got fired (this was already planned before the Wenzhou crash). The current minister further reduced speeds after the crash due to safety concerns.
> 
> I think a 500 km/h CRH is further away than it ever has been.


what was the max speed and average speed before accident for G1 series trains i.e which was having stop only at Nanjing south?

G1-G10(I guess few no. are reserved for future) - trains between Beijing-Shanghai and vice versa with stop only at Nanjing.

G11-G30(few no. may be reserved for future) - with two stops.. Nanjing and Jinan

G31-G40(few no. may be reserbed for future) - runs between Beijing and Hangzhou/vice versa with 7-8 stops.

Is this the way new G serious are numbered?

I travelled in G38 today from Nanjing to Xuzhou

Max speed - 315KMPH
Average speed - 262KMPH
Stop - Non stop, Distance - 333KM

Looks there are some speed restriction, 

** the train crossed Yangtze rive bridge with 250KMPH, then only speed was increased to 305KMPH and then to 315KMPH.

* Speed dropped to 290KMPH when train crossed Chuzhou and again accelerated back to 305-310KMPH

* Again speed dropped to 180KMPH for few minutes when it was running nearing Bengbu (I guess there would be branch to Hefei from here). I wonder whether it is due to alignment or due to signaling.*


----------



## yaohua2000

Arul Murugan said:


> what was the max speed and average speed before accident for G1 series trains i.e which was having stop only at Nanjing south?
> 
> G1-G10(I guess few no. are reserved for future) - trains between Beijing-Shanghai and vice versa with stop only at Nanjing.
> 
> G11-G30(few no. may be reserved for future) - with two stops.. Nanjing and Jinan
> 
> G31-G40(few no. may be reserbed for future) - runs between Beijing and Hangzhou/vice versa with 7-8 stops.
> 
> Is this the way new G serious are numbered?
> 
> I travelled in G38 today from Nanjing to Xuzhou
> 
> Max speed - 315KMPH
> Average speed - 262KMPH
> Stop - Non stop, Distance - 333KM
> 
> Looks there are some speed restriction,
> 
> ** the train crossed Yangtze rive bridge with 250KMPH, then only speed was increased to 305KMPH and then to 315KMPH.
> 
> * Speed dropped to 290KMPH when train crossed Chuzhou and again accelerated back to 305-310KMPH
> 
> * Again speed dropped to 180KMPH for few minutes when it was running nearing Bengbu (I guess there would be branch to Hefei from here). I wonder whether it is due to alignment or due to signaling.*


290 km/h is mostly likely caused by passing through electricity split phase.

There's no permanent speed limit near Bengbu. You might be not lucky on that day.


----------



## hmmwv

Crossing the Dashengguan bridge at 250km/h must be awesome, and that bridge is even rated for 300km/h passings.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> Chinese Vice Premier calls for thorough rail safety checks
> 2011-08-16 15:57:39 GMT2011-08-16 23:57:39(Beijing Time) Xinhua English
> 
> BEIJING, Aug. 16 (Xinhua) -- Vice Premier Zhang Dejiang on Tuesday urged a thorough overhaul of China's high-speed railways to prevent major accidents.
> The checks, to run from mid-August to mid-September, aim to "thoroughly eliminate risks" concerning high-speed railways and "effectively prevent and resolutely curb" major railway accidents to ensure the safety of rail traffic, Zhang said at a mobilization meeting for the checks.
> The safety of the country's high-speed railways was questioned after high-speed trains on a line near the eastern city of Wenzhou collided on July 23, leaving 40 people dead and 191 injured.
> "The accident cautioned us that safety is the priority for railway development...Starting safety checks is a pressing need to raise the government's credibility and also a key measure to ensure the safety of railway transport," Zhang said.
> The safety checks cover high-speed railways that are both in operation and under construction, according to a State Council statement released last week.
> The State Administration of Work Safety will lead the inspection on equipment quality, operation safety, and design and quality of railways under construction.
> The government will reevaluate the system safety on rail projects that have received government approval but have not commenced construction. It ordered a temporary halt of approval of new railway lines until the safety review can be completed, according to the statement.
> The checks will be carried out by 12 teams composed of government officials and 175 technical experts. Officials of Ministry of Railways are not on the list.
> The teams should make thorough checks of high-speed railways and not go through the motions, Zhang said.
> He encouraged officials and experts to "go deep down to the grass-roots levels" for first-hand information and provide suggestions on how to improve rail safety.
> Operations and constructions must be stopped instantly if any potential safety hazards are spotted, Zhang said.
> The safety checks are the latest move by the government to regain the public's trust in the country's fast-growing high-speed rail sector.
> Effective on Tuesday, bullet trains with a designed maximum speed of 350 km per hour start running at 300 km, those with designed maximum speeds of 250 km per hour run at 200 km per hour, and those with maximum speed 200 km per hour run at 160 km per hour.
> Ticket prices have been trimmed accordingly.
> "Cutting running speeds of bullet trains during the initial stages is necessary for the ministry to gather experience in the management of railway safety," railway minister Sheng Guangzu said.


It is 13th of September.

On which day in the middle of this month shall the safety review be completed?


----------



## ANR

*Derailed Hopes*

_The devastating Wenzhou train crash has a mixed impact on the Chinese economy and industries associated with high-speed trains 
_
By HU YUE
bjreview.com.cn 
UPDATED: August 15, 2011









_Workers accelerate electrification of the Beijing-Kowloon Railway._

While China mourns the lives lost in the high-speed rail crash on July 23 near Wenzhou, the accident's far-reaching implications for the economy are being increasingly felt. One casualty of the disaster is likely to be the country's ambitious plan to press ahead with a building spree of high-speed railways—the crash may lead to a delay or scaling-down of these projects.

The Chinese Government has poured exorbitant sums into developing the world's largest high-speed rail system, which had reached 8,358 km of tracks by the end of last year. It is expected to exceed 13,000 km by 2012 and 16,000 km by 2020. The train collision was the first serious accident involving China's bullet trains, which began running in 2007. China aimed for a small decline in railway infrastructure investment this year, setting the annual spending target at 745.5 billion yuan ($115.6 billion). But now many analysts believe China could miss that target, as it will have to slow down the pace of construction and focus on rail safety. "Since 2008 China has experienced a significant leap forward in railway building," said Song Bin, a senior analyst with the Beijing-based Tianxiang Investment Consulting Ltd. "The speed of construction is set to slow down."

Whatever the cause of the crash, China will attach greater importance to making its bullet trains safer, said the Ping An Securities Co. Ltd. in a recent report. "The government is bound to tighten its efforts to address problems in train dispatching and signaling systems and railway management," the report said. Jiang Langting, an analyst with the Gao Hua Securities Co. Ltd., said the accident, along with other recent malfunctions in high-speed rails, can help push forward a new round of reforms within the Ministry of Railways (MOR). "It is now imperative for the ministry to heighten its management efficiency and profitability," Jiang said.

Zhao Jian, a professor at the School of Economics and Management of the Beijing Jiaotong University, said this accident is the outcome of exponential development in high-speed railways. "The MOR should rethink the development model of high-speed railways and balance speed and quality, as well as benefits and safety," he said. Even before the crash, high-speed rails were the target of criticism due to possible environmental damage and ticket prices that are too high for ordinary Chinese consumers. "After so many years of rapid expansion, China's high-speed railway investment needs to take a breath," said Zhen Yi, an analyst with the GF Securities Co. Ltd. in Shenzhen. "However, it's very unlikely for the country to give up those lines already under construction, which involve trillions of yuan in total investment," she added.

As the Chinese economy moves out of the shadow of the financial crisis, robust investment deserves much of the credit. But economists believe the recent railway tragedy will promote policymakers to put the breaks on aggressive investment expansion, marking a turning point in the country's growth model. "Authorities may choose intentionally to slow economic growth gradually but firmly to 7-8 percent in following years and spend more time fixing the problems caused by fast growth," said Minggao Shen, chief economist for Greater China, Citigroup Inc.









_Pictured is a bullet train assembly line of the CSR Corp. Ltd. The Wenzhou 
train crash is expected to have a negative impact on the company's equipment 
and technology exports (LI ZIHENG)
_
Financial strains
Meanwhile, worries have been abounding about the debt sustainability of the MOR since the accident may hinder its ability to finance future projects. In a move to fund massive high-speed railway projects, the MOR has taken on a mountain of debts. By the end of June 2011, debts of China's railway operators, all affiliated to the MOR, had totaled 2.0907 trillion yuan ($324.1 billion), with an asset-liability ratio of 58.53 percent, slightly up from 58.24 percent in the first quarter of this year, according to data from the Shanghai Clearing House, an inter-bank clearing house under the People's Bank of China, the central bank. The Ministry of Finance and the MOR are the only government departments that can issue direct financing such as short-term financing bills, corporate bonds and medium-term notes.

On July 21, the finance ministry planned to auction short-term financing bills of 20 billion yuan ($3.1 billion) with a yield of 5.18 percent, but only raised 18.7 billion yuan ($2.9 billion). Concerns are rising that the MOR's securities may further lose their appeal to investors due to the deadly accident. Now, after the recent accident, demand for railway ministry bonds has dropped even lower, said Stephen Green, a Hong Kong-based economist with the Standard Chartered Bank. "It will be a long time before the MOR returns to the bond market," he added, citing doubts if the ministry's operations can generate enough free cash flow to cover the interest payments on its debts. "If the ministry is a company, then it already faces the risk of going bankrupt," said Zheng Ruxi, an analyst with the Huatai Securities Co. Ltd. "But it is a government agency, and its bonds are guaranteed by government credit, which provided a cushion against the impact of the train crash."

Zhao Qingming, a senior researcher with China Construction Bank, said the MOR, with solid and stable returns, remains an appreciated customer for commercial banks, and the tragic train collision will not change its credit rating. His view was shared by Guo Tianyong, Director of the Research Center of China's Banking Industry under the Central University of Finance and Economics, who said the accident will fuel the MOR's risks but won't alter the big picture.

Chain reaction
As China is likely to curtail railway investments, a number of relevant industries may receive a heavy blow, such as those that supply cement, steel and coal. The China Galaxy Securities Co. Ltd. estimated that 700 billion yuan ($108.5 billion) of railway investments could create demands for 30 million tons of steel and 140 million tons of cement. Bearing the brunt are also a string of railway equipment manufacturers, including China Railway Signal & Communication Corp. (CRCS), one of the contracted builders of the signal system of the Ningbo-Taizhou-Wenzhou Railway, where the crash occurred. As the state-owned company gears up to debut on the stock market next year, many fret that the accident has cast an ominous shadow over the prospect of its initial public offerings.

In addition, Chinese manufacturers of bullet trains—CSR and CNR—are also expected to suffer painful losses. The two companies are competing for export orders of high-speed trains, technologies and equipment, as well as contracts to make bullet trains overseas. CSR, for example, in December 2010 signed an agreement with the U.S. conglomerate General Electric to make high-speed trains in the United States. Just because of the latest accident, they are experiencing a frustration on the path of expanding offshore.

"The disaster exposed key flaws in China's railway system and it could take 20 years for local train and rail builders to convince foreign buyers their high-speed technology is safe," said Edwin Merner, President of Atlantis Investment Research Corp. "The accident does not mean the end of high-speed trains, but it will force other countries to think more about whether they really need it and where they get those technologies," said Ingrid Wei, an analyst at Credit Suisse.

Li Xuerong, a senior researcher with the Shenzhen-based think-tank CIConsulting, downplayed the worries, saying "despite the stumbling blocks, Chinese companies will adhere to the significant strategy of going global and lay a solid global foothold." Meanwhile, the ripple effect of the accident is spreading throughout the economy. "The train crash may damp demand for property in cities along new railway lines," said Credit Suisse, in a report. "Chinese policymakers vowed investigations into the illegal confiscation of land by local governments in the name of railway and highway development. And the recent accident could trigger a movement that may affect developers' existing land banks," said the report.

The only beneficiary may be airlines, which faced intense competition from high-speed railways. After the Zhengzhou-Shanghai Express Railway came into operation in February 2010, Henan Airlines saw passenger numbers shrink by half and eventually shut down the route in January 2011.But since the train accident on July 23, the balance of power has been obviously tipping in favor of airlines. As many travelers consider flying a safer option, air ticket prices across the nation have staged a powerful rebound. "We believe airlines in the short term may regain market shares lost to high-speed railways, as travelers' confidence in China's high-speed railways could take time to rebuild," said Goldman Sachs in a report. "Over the longer term, however, we expect safety issues to be resolved and, in our view, high-speed railways will still be a competitive and energy-efficient mode of transportation in China," it concluded.


----------



## timo9

hkskyline said:


> By *YouSee * from a Chinese photography forum :


:cheers:


----------



## Taizu

*China's High-Speed Rail System: Boom or Bust?*

Over the past decade, China has become nearly synonymous with economic growth. The country has continually posted double digit GDP growth and the IMF predicts that China may become the largest economy by 2016. These predictions have some US economic analysts pondering: "should we be concerned about China?"

We can evaluate factors affecting the answer to this question by using Recorded Future to analyze open source information about the Chinese economy, specifically infrastructure projects. By examining China's highly touted innovation and leadership in high-speed rail, we find that recent safety issues, government censorship, and public doubts over safety expose a likely slowdown in progress for the country's infrastructure.

*China's Ambitious Rail Plans*

There is no doubt that the high-speed railway market in China has been red hot in recent years, and one source indicates that China's high speed railroad track mileage may exceed 16,000 kilometers by 2020. The government is also spending billions to expand into less-populated areas, "as the first long-distance high-speed rail line in west China, the second line of Lanxin Railway has a planned investment of more than 140 billion yuan ($21.91 billion)."

What else can we learn about the future of the Chinese high speed railroad network?









But not all is well with the development of the Chinese high-speed rail system, and a deadly crash this past July exposed serious safety and regulatory shortcomings.

*Public Criticism and Falling Investment*

The subsequent attempt by the Chinese government to censor information about the disaster evoked tremendous public backlash that now threaten to significantly slow proposed projects. Bloomberg also reported that many projects were temporarily halted following the accident, which is likely to have an impact on the completion date, if not the long term development, of China's expanding rail system.

What kind of impact did the train crash have on the rail industry in China?










Above, we filtered results about China's railway system to only those articles published after the crash on July 23rd. What do we find? We quickly see that China's high-speed rail system is in big trouble.

Railway industry analyst Lu Zhou seems to have summed it up best: "A Great Leap Forward-style movement in China's high-speed railway is changing abruptly to a period of silence, and that could last a few years". Investment in high speed rail has already taken a substantial hit, with seven out of 28 railway firms in China reporting losses.

Two key points from the Xinhua News Agency that are particularly troubling:

According to statistics from the Ministry of Railways (MOR), growth in the country's railway fixed-asset investment has been on the decline, from a 25.6-percent year-on-year increase in January to a 21.8-percent year-on-year decline in July.



China Railway Erju Co. Ltd., a leading railway construction enterprise, reported net profits of 395.57 million yuan (61.91 million U.S. dollars) in the first half of the year, a 12.24 percent drop year-on-year.


The train crash in Wenzhou had a significant impact on the high-speed rail industry in China. For the first time since the 1990s, train speed is expected to slow down. Some train makers have halted production, and the $5 billion expected IPO of Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway was suspended after the crash. One Chinese official indicated that, "upcoming safety checks on the country's high-speed railway network are necessary to raise the government's credibility". These indicators suggest that a serious problem exists within the Chinese high-speed rail system.

*Understanding Public Sentiment in China*

Another angle to consider when using Recorded Future is the data mined from Chinese language sources. In the graph below, we conducted a search similar to the one above but using only Chinese language texts. One article on China Dialogue discusses the end of the invincibility myth of the Chinese high-speed rail system. An editorial in the Financial Times then defends the railroad system and urges for its continued development.










We also performed a search for any future facing railway information in Chinese. One of the most useful articles was a translated version of another Financial Times article that discussed the recent accident. The article discusses potential problems that the government may now face in rail, "5 years ago, the Chinese government invested heavily in the hope that [it would] in record time...[become] the world's largest high-speed rail network. Intention is to stimulate the construction of high-speed rail and improve the efficiency of national pride, but [the railway] has now become...embarrassing".










Potentially even more interesting is the wealth of social media data can be found at the bottom of the article in 116 comments. These comments were made by Chinese speakers, most of whom are located within China, and some are particularly candid: "I am struggling to find confidence in the government, but it is really difficult. Too much logic lies."

*Conclusion:*

Debates like these are fairly rare in China where citizens are often discouraged from criticizing the government. The railroad system is a crown jewel for the Chinese government, and it is clearly not too pleased with the criticism. However, the government faced tremendous public backlash that forced it to reduce the level of censorship.

The very nature of this debate can be seen within the above mentioned comments as nationalists and government skeptics battled it out online. Thousands of people viewed these comments and over a hundred commented, showing that this became a highly salient issue in China. The end result, based on media analysis, public sentiment, and financial data suggests that Chinese high-speed rail development is in serious trouble and may be slowed for years.


----------



## preservarbuenosaires

This might be the most mediocre analysis ever...


----------



## yaohua2000

New pics from the Lanzhou–Urumqi Line:


----------



## k.k.jetcar

preservarbuenosaires said:


> This might be the most mediocre analysis ever...


Care to enlighten us on why it is so? Otherwise your post means nothing.


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## Sopomon

preservarbuenosaires said:


> This might be the most mediocre analysis ever...


Is this a case of "I don't like the conclusions drawn, so I'll find fault with the entire piece." ?

Otherwise, like k.k.jetcar says, please give reasons.


----------



## makita09

OK I'll try.



Taizu said:


> The train crash in Wenzhou had a significant impact on the high-speed rail industry in China. For the first time since the 1990s, train speed is expected to slow down. Some train makers have halted production, and the $5 billion expected IPO of Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway was suspended after the crash. One Chinese official indicated that, "upcoming safety checks on the country's high-speed railway network are necessary to raise the government's credibility". *These indicators suggest that a serious problem exists within the Chinese high-speed rail system.*


Vague assertions. "Serious problems..." OK, but what serious problems? Problems that are insurmountable forever? Unlikely. Problems that can be worked out? They aren't building a nuclear powered space ship, they are building bridges and tunnels and putting tracks in/on them. Just because they managed to screw that up doesn't mean they can't quite easily just take a look at how the entire rest of the world builds railways and take a little more care. There is absolutely no quantifiable amount of 'problems', and for that reason the article so far has been an emotive-based one rather than an actual analysis of anything.



> *Conclusion:*
> 
> Debates like these are fairly rare in China where citizens are often discouraged from criticizing the government. The railroad system is a crown jewel for the Chinese government, and it is clearly not too pleased with the criticism. However, the government faced tremendous public backlash that forced it to reduce the level of censorship.
> 
> The very nature of this debate can be seen within the above mentioned comments as nationalists and government skeptics battled it out online. Thousands of people viewed these comments and over a hundred commented, showing that this became a highly salient issue in China. The end result, based on media analysis, public sentiment, and financial data suggests that Chinese high-speed rail development is in serious trouble and may be slowed for years.


The conclusion here is that censorship is in trouble, not the high speed railways. I am not saying that there is not a problem for HSR in China, but just that this articles own point is actually that censorship, not HSR, is in trouble. Only the writer of the article didn't even realise the logic of their own point.

This article tries to make the point of a railway being in trouble without a single mention of passenger numbers or revenue. Methinks therefore it is a load of tosh. :cheers:


----------



## Sopomon

makita09 said:


> OK I'll try.
> 
> 
> 
> Vague assertions. "Serious problems..." OK, but what serious problems? Problems that are insurmountable forever? Unlikely. Problems that can be worked out? They aren't building a nuclear powered space ship, they are building bridges and tunnels and putting tracks in/on them. Just because they managed to screw that up doesn't mean they can't quite easily just take a look at how the entire rest of the world builds railways and take a little more care. There is absolutely no quantifiable amount of 'problems', and for that reason the article so far has been an emotive-based one rather than an actual analysis of anything.
> 
> 
> 
> The conclusion here is that censorship is in trouble, not the high speed railways. I am not saying that there is not a problem for HSR in China, but just that this articles own point is actually that censorship, not HSR, is in trouble. Only the writer of the article didn't even realise the logic of their own point.
> 
> This article tries to make the point of a railway being in trouble without a single mention of passenger numbers or revenue. Methinks therefore it is a load of tosh. :cheers:


True, it can certainly not claim to be making sound assumptions, nor even claim to be unbiased, but I believe his accusations of it being possibly the most mediocre artice ever were a little overblown at least.


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## hmmwv

The analysis is based purely on data mining of online discussions so it's more like a experiment of using data mining as a way to gauge public sentiment, rather than a serious study of how will Chinese HSR fare in the future.


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## godetto

First of all, I would like to apologise for my request, as it might be OT.

As I will use chinese high speed rail in the next months, I was trying to understand if it is possibile to book online tickets (not from agencies, but from the company itself). 
It would be really useful, as when I came to China in summer 2010 the train I used was really sold out, no place in any car (I had to get the tickets two days before). 

Thank you.


----------



## gnatho

@godetto

You can try http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/kyfw/ . Some time ago it was only available for *Beijing - Tianjin* and *Beijing - Shanghai* HSR, however now you can book also other lines. Rumors say that by the end of the year all trains should be in the online booking system.


----------



## yaohua2000

godetto said:


> First of all, I would like to apologise for my request, as it might be OT.
> 
> As I will use chinese high speed rail in the next months, I was trying to understand if it is possibile to book online tickets (not from agencies, but from the company itself).
> It would be really useful, as when I came to China in summer 2010 the train I used was really sold out, no place in any car (I had to get the tickets two days before).
> 
> Thank you.


It's possible only if you read Chinese and have a Chinese credit/debit card.


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## godetto

Thank you. 
Unfortunately I can't read chinese, and I have noy any chinese card...


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## vmvmedia

Look it like as model railway 
But Nice pic


----------



## hmmwv

godetto said:


> Thank you.
> Unfortunately I can't read chinese, and I have noy any chinese card...


Sounds like the best option for you is either book through a travel agency, or be at the train station a little earlier and buy it from the ticketing machine, it has a pretty good English interface and takes cash.


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## yaohua2000

hmmwv said:


> Sounds like the best option for you is either book through a travel agency, or be at the train station a little earlier and buy it from the ticketing machine, it has a pretty good English interface and takes cash.


You can't use ticketing machine without a Chinese ID card, thanks to Sheng Guangzu.


----------



## hmmwv

Oct 1st National Day travel peak causing capacity problem and more CRH trains are added to service across the nation (source in Chinese).

Beijing-Tianjin ICL: Daily service increased to 92 pairs, with the option to go to 100 pairs if demands remain high. http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2011-10-01/101623249017.shtml

Beijing-Shanghai HSR: Two more G trains added (G150, G162). http://finance.sina.com.cn/roll/20110929/100310569470.shtml

Wuhan-Guangzhou PDL: Four D trains added http://finance.sina.com.cn/consume/puguangtai/20110927/075810545862.shtml

Guangzhou-Shenzhen ICL: Three D trains added http://finance.sina.com.cn/consume/puguangtai/20110927/075810545862.shtml

Zhenzhou-Xi'an PDL: One pair of G train added http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2011-09-30/180723246417.shtml

Fuzhou-Xiamen PFL: Six pairs of D trains added http://fj.sina.com.cn/xm/news/ms/2011-09-27/102424141.html

Hainan East Ring ICL: Frequency increased to 22-25 pairs per day http://news.sina.com.cn/o/2011-09-26/141823218727.shtml


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## hmmwv

Some more updates about CRH but I haven't located the English versions of them yet.

State Council / MOR's two month long railway safety inspection concluded, results will be turned into implementable solutions in the future. MOR will increase investment in railway safety infrastructure. http://news.bjnews.com.cn/2011/1001/133601.shtml

South Dail article about railway investment in the future.
http://epaper.nfdaily.cn/html/2011-10/01/content_7012473.htm

1. CNY 20B railway construction bond issuing date delayed to Oct 12th. 
2. Shenzhen-Xiamen ICL finish date delayed to late next year due to financing troubles.
3. Railway investment is CNY 357.7B as of August, down 11.75% from last year.
4. Major delays coming to 200km/h intercity links, Zhujiang River Delta's 516km intercity express rail network will not be completed by 2013 as planned.


----------



## Silly_Walks

hmmwv said:


> Some more updates about CRH but I haven't located the English versions of them yet.
> 
> State Council / MOR's two month long railway safety inspection concluded, results will be turned into implementable solutions in the future. MOR will increase investment in railway safety infrastructure. http://news.bjnews.com.cn/2011/1001/133601.shtml
> 
> South Dail article about railway investment in the future.
> http://epaper.nfdaily.cn/html/2011-10/01/content_7012473.htm
> 
> 1. CNY 20B railway construction bond issuing date delayed to Oct 12th.
> 2. Shenzhen-Xiamen ICL finish date delayed to late next year due to financing troubles.
> 3. Railway investment is CNY 357.7B as of August, down 11.75% from last year.
> 4. Major delays coming to 200km/h intercity links, Zhujiang River Delta's 516km intercity express rail network will not be completed by 2013 as planned.


Ugh... big signs of slowdown hno:

I hope they at least complete the 4+4 350 km/h routes, in the end.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> Oct 1st National Day travel peak causing capacity problem and more CRH trains are added to service across the nation (source in Chinese).


Are these trains temporary and shall end after holidays, or was it an occasion to introduce new completed trains which remain in service after holidays?


----------



## NCT

Silly_Walks said:


> Ugh... big signs of slowdown hno:
> 
> I hope they at least complete the 4+4 350 km/h routes, in the end.


It's still quick by Western standards, even with a delay of a couple of years. The prospect of UK's HSR starting construction in 2017 is like the best news in the world lol.


----------



## preservarbuenosaires

"Railway investment is CNY 357.7B as of August, down 11.75% from last year."


Been realistic, that's not a big step back.

It's just 12% less than 2010, and 2010 hadthe biggest budget ever.
It's still more than 2009 budget that was itself bigger than the US and Germany and France and Spain budgets combined.

Let's stop seing ghosts!


----------



## Silly_Walks

NCT said:


> It's still quick by Western standards, even with a delay of a couple of years. The prospect of UK's HSR starting construction in 2017 is like the best news in the world lol.


Well, while we're looking at the West: delay often leads to cancellation. And that's the trend i'm afraid of will happen in China as well.


----------



## foxmulder

Well, some major constructions have been completed so, to some extend, investment has to decrease...

As far as I know 4+4 will be finished at the end of 2013 anyway.


----------



## Peloso

foxmulder said:


> Well, some major constructions have been completed so, to some extend, investment has to decrease...


Yeah, I guess it's only normal that the budget went down by 12 percent, after all they just completed the Beijing-Shanghai high speed link, that one ate up a significant part of the budget with its rough terrain.


----------



## yaohua2000

foxmulder said:


> Well, some major constructions have been completed so, to some extend, investment has to decrease...
> 
> As far as I know 4+4 will be finished at the end of 2013 anyway.


Construction work on the Baoji–Lanzhou section (part of 4+4) hasn't begun.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

What is the next part of 4+4 that can be completed?

Guangzhou-Longhua?


----------



## ANR

*China Bullet Trains Trip on Technology*

By JAMES T. AREDDY in Shanghai and NORIHIKO SHIROUZU in Beijing
Wall Street Journal
OCTOBER 3, 2011

SHANGHAI—China celebrated its bullet trains as the home-grown pride of a nation: a rail system faster and more advanced than any other, showcasing superior Chinese technology. However, China's high-speed rail network was in fact built with imported components—including signaling-system parts designed to prevent train collisions—that local engineers couldn't fully understand, according to a review of corporate documents and interviews with more than a dozen rail executives inside and outside China.

During a late July lightning storm, two of China's bullet trains collided in the eastern city of Wenzhou, killing 40 people and injuring nearly 200 in one of the world's worst high-speed passenger-rail accidents. China's government initially blamed flawed signaling and human error. It recently postponed public release of its crash findings. The precise cause of the disaster remains uncertain, so there is no way to know what role, if any, the signaling assembly may have played. 

An examination of China's use of foreign technology in its bullet-train signal systems highlights deep international distrust over China's industrial model, including weak intellectual-property protections, which can complicate efforts to acquire state-of-the-art technology. Key signaling systems were assembled by Beijing-based Hollysys Automation Technologies Ltd., one of the few companies China's Ministry of Railways tapped to handle such work. In some cases of the signal systems it supplied, technology branded as proprietary to Hollysys contained circuitry tailor-made by Hitachi Ltd. of Japan to Hollysys specifications, according to people familiar with the situation.

The problem, these people say, is that Hitachi—fearful that Chinese technicians might reverse-engineer and steal the technology—sold components with the inner workings concealed from Hollysys. Hitachi executives say this "black box" design makes gear harder to copy, and also harder to understand, for instance during testing "It's still generally a mystery how a company like Hollysys could integrate our equipment into a broader safety-signaling system without intimate knowledge of our know-how," a senior Hitachi executive said.

A rail signaling system is a complex assemblage of dozens of devices, circuits and software that helps train drivers and dispatchers keep everything running safely. As trains pass beacons along a route, known as "balise modules," information about location and speed are fed into the train-control network. According to Hollysys statements, it supplied key parts of the system including the onboard brain, the Automatic Train Protection, or ATP. Hitachi supplied Hollysys with a primary part of the ATP, according to Hitachi executives. Hollysys didn't respond to requests for comment. Two days after the crash in July, Hollysys issued a statement confirming its ATP components were installed on both trains. Hollysys said its components "functioned normally and well."

A separate state-owned Chinese signaling company, which also works with foreign firms and supplies most of the gear to bullet-train projects, issued a statement around the same time expressing "sorrow" and pledging to accept its responsibility.

China's high-speed railway, budgeted at close to $300 billion, already challenges the travel time of jetliners between cities like Beijing and Shanghai, which are roughly as far apart as Philadelphia and Atlanta. The trains, with advertised cruising speeds on the fastest lines topping 215 miles per hour, are said to "fly on land," demonstrating a future where China is a recognized peer of the U.S., EU and Japan in big-ticket ingenuity. China is designing airliners to compete with Boeing Co. and nuclear reactors to challenge Toshiba Corp.'s Westinghouse Electric Co. It already exports high-speed rail equipment: This month it reached a deal to supply locomotives to the nation of Georgia.

In less than seven years, China has built a bullet-train network larger than the ones Japan and Germany took decades to construct. China is only about halfway through a 15-year plan to build a total of nearly 10,000 miles of high-speed track connecting 24 major cities. "We aim at the world's top-notch technologies," then-Railways Minister Liu Zhijun declared four years ago. A few months before the July crash, Mr. Liu was fired after China's Communist Party accused him and other top officials of unspecified corruption. Mr. Liu couldn't be located for comment.

July's rail tragedy—in which two bullet trains collided during a storm, sending some cars plunging 65 feet from elevated tracks—is tarnishing China's effort to portray the project as technologically advanced and safety-minded. Among other things, the Ministry of Railways chose not to install lightning rods and surge protectors on some high-speed rail lines even as an industry association recommended doing so on major infrastructure projects, He Jinliang, director of China's National Lightning Protection Technology Standard Committee, said in July. The Ministry of Railways didn't respond to requests for comment. Through state media and on its website, the ministry has stressed its attention to safety. A Sept. 5 statement said, "Our cadres should be leading the work, changing their style, going to the grass-roots level and trying to solve problems."

Last week, Chinese authorities reiterated their safety pledge after two subway trains in collided in Shanghai, injuring more than 280 people, in an accident blamed on errors after a power snafu knocked out signals, according to the subway operator.

From the initial days of the high-speed railway program, Beijing turned to local firms, including Hollysys, rather than foreign expertise. Hollysys says it is one of just two companies eligible to supply certain signaling technology for China's fastest trains. Ministry of Railways rules effectively forbid foreign companies from bidding. Though new to high-speed rail, Hollysys became a central supplier of the signaling systems, circuits and software that are supposed to prevent the kind of accident that happened near Wenzhou by automatically stopping trains if trouble is detected.

Integrating signaling components is a challenge, particularly at the pace that China was expanding its rail network, train executives say. "The problem is to put all these pieces of the puzzle into a coherent system," says Marc Antoni, technological innovation director at SNCF, the French national railway operator, which runs the high-speed TGV.

Originally part of China's Ministry of Electronics, Hollysys in the 1990s became a privately owned business focused on "controls"—the technology that keeps factory assembly lines humming smoothly. In a Hollysys timeline of its railway achievements, the company says it won its first noteworthy high-speed-rail signaling contracts in 2005, about when China began construction. A year later, in a filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, Hollysys played down the importance of high-speed-rail signaling by describing it as "adjacent" to core operations in industrial controls. The sector was mentioned just once in a 300-plus page SEC filing in 2006, part of a successful effort by Hollysys to list its shares on Nasdaq through a special-purpose acquisition company, or SPAC, a practice that involves adoption of a current listing by another company.

By late 2008 Beijing was speeding construction of its bullet trains in part to help power the Chinese economy through the global economic slump. Hollysys described itself in regulatory filings as one of just two companies that possessed "the capability" to supply the Ministry of Railways with signals on its fastest lines. Hollysys became a tech darling and in September 2009 its chief financial officer, Peter Li, speaking to analysts, credited the Ministry of Railways' "very clear mandate of localizing the product." When an analyst asked whether he feared competition, Mr. Li said, "Basically, foreign players are not allowed to bid independently for high-speed-rail projects." The Ministry of Railways awarded Hollysys more than $100 million of high-speed-signaling contracts in 2010 alone, according to company statements. For the fiscal year ended this past June, Hollysys reported total revenue of $262.84 million.

The ministry also played matchmaker for Hollysys. When a leading Italian signaling company, Ansaldo STS, sought a business foothold in China, the Ministry of Railways indicated that it should be in the form of a partnership with Hollysys, according to Ansaldo spokesman Roberto Alatri. A $97 million contract followed in July 2008 for a Hollysys-Ansaldo consortium to design, build and maintain signal-control systems on China's then-fastest train line, a 459-kilometer section linking the central China cities of Zhengzhou and Xian. The Hollysys portion was $22 million.

Hollysys had a longer relationship with Hitachi, which supplied the Chinese company components for high-speed rail signaling starting in 2005, the year Hollysys says it got its start in the business. The main cooperation was on the onboard ATP system, which Hollysys documents describe as components in the nose and tail of trains that act as its "last line of defense in safety." The Hitachi-made ATP components came with a catch. Two Hitachi executives familiar with the matter said the company adopts what the industry refers to as "black box" security to conceal design secrets by withholding technical blueprints known in Japanese as zumen.

Black boxes make it tough to reverse-engineer the equipment. They can also make it more difficult to troubleshoot the gear, according to executives of several companies familiar with the practice in China. "Providing zumen means…we completely trust the buyer of our technology," a senior Hitachi executive said, with the understanding that the buyer "would not become a competitive threat in other markets." Hitachi doesn't always withhold its design secrets. When working with companies elsewhere on a common project, the senior executive said, it will provide the zumen, or blueprints, in some cases. Hitachi executives say the arrangement with Hollysys wasn't a technology-transfer deal—in which it would be expected to share technical details—but rather a contractual arrangement to manufacture parts to specifications provided by Hollysys. Hitachi says it did provide "limited" technical support that is typical of contracts of this type.

A spokesman at Hitachi's headquarters in Tokyo, Atsushi Konno, said the company "has no comment about Hollysys's products, as we do not have any information as to what kind of end product Hollysys developed using our devices." The official confirmed that Hitachi supplied Hollysys some equipment for the signaling systems used aboard trains and "also provided technical explanation regarding those components, and we believe Hollysys, as a result, fully understands them." 

At least one installation of Hollysys components didn't go smoothly, according to one Europe-based engineer who worked on the job. An onboard Hollysys computer, part of the ATP called a driver machine interface, kept freezing, displaying old information. Technical bugs aren't unusual when fine-tuning a train system, but the temporary fix was, according to the engineer. To avoid the embarrassment of canceling an opening ceremony, operators decided to begin passenger service on the high-speed line and assign one person in the train's cab the exclusive task of watching that the seconds continued to scroll on the computer's clock—thereby ensuring the device was functioning. "It was a random failure that was not managed very well," the engineer said. The problem was later fixed, he said.

Dominique Pouliquen, head of Alstom SA's China operations, said China and its rail-equipment suppliers remain in the learning stages. "You acquire the technology. Then you need to absorb it; you need to master it," Mr. Pouliquen told a small group of reporters last week. For China, "I think it's all about absorption and fully mastering the whole technology that has been acquired over the last 10 years." Alstom supplied, through a local joint venture, hardware for train dispatchers on the line where July's collision occurred. Mr. Pouliquen said the JV didn't provide any of the signaling technology that the Chinese government has said was possibly flawed.

In an August letter to shareholders, Hollysys Chief Executive Wang Changli cited the "tragic" Wenzhou accident and reiterated that Hollysys equipment wasn't to blame. China's biggest signaling company, Beijing-based China Railway Signal & Communication Corp., originated within China's railways bureaucracy. Shortly after the crash, a CRSC unit, Beijing National Railway Research & Design Institute of Signal and Communication, issued a statement of "sorrow" and pledged to "shoulder our responsibility."

CRSC hasn't commented about the accident directly, aside from a statement Aug. 23 stating that its top executive, 55-year-old Ma Cheng, collapsed and died during questioning by crash investigators.


----------



## hmmwv

foxmulder said:


> Well, some major constructions have been completed so, to some extend, investment has to decrease...
> 
> As far as I know 4+4 will be finished at the end of 2013 anyway.


You are right, most of the expensive projects are wrapping up in a year or two so investment is slowing down. As far as the 4+4 network the backbone ones are done but there are still several connecting lines under constructions, which may face delays or speed downgrade. For example Yaohua has indicated that Baoji-Lanzhou section of the Xuzhou-Lanzhou PDL hasn't started construction yet. That particular line I believe is already approved by the State Council and is not in the risk of being cancelled, as long as the current policy of keep existing projects and freeze new project approval doesn't change. However it's construction probably will not start until the Xi'an-Baoji line is completed next year.


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## hmmwv

ANR said:


> By JAMES T. AREDDY in Shanghai and NORIHIKO SHIROUZU in Beijing
> Wall Street Journal
> OCTOBER 3, 2011


This is a interesting article which shad some light into aspects that we didn't hear about before, including the difficulties that China faces when absorbing foreign technologies that are outside the scope of the officially transferred ones. However I think the article is misleading by focusing on Hollysys, the supplier of some ATP components, which no evidence suggest is responsible for the accident. The train's ATP did what it suppose to do, it's just the signal it received from CTCS is erroneous. The other interesting part is the allegation that no lighting rods are installed in some sections, it's definitely possible that in some areas they are skipped, but I've seen them everywhere along the Shanghai-Nanjing line. It would be totally irresponsible if they skipped lighting prevention equipment in Southern China where lightings occur frequently.


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## ANR

*Rail contractors forced to suspend projects as govts payments dry up*

Updated: 2011-09-30
By Gao Changxin 
China Daily









_A high-speed train stops at Beijing South Railway Station. [Photo/China Daily]_

SHANGHAI - China's two biggest railway construction contractors have been forced to suspend some of their projects after the Ministry of Railways delayed payments to them, local media reported on Thursday. Wang Mengshu, academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, was quoted by the Economic Information Daily as saying that the ministry is holding back 60 billion yuan ($9.38 billion) in payments to China Railway Group Ltd (CRGL) and China Railway Construction Corp Ltd (CRCCL). 

The report is the latest sign that the ministry is under increasing financial pressure after a series of problems on China's high-speed rail system this year, including a major fatal collision in July, hit investor confidence and forced the nation to reconsider its high-speed rail investment. "Building railways requires a lot of investment, but monetary policy is tight and local governments are reluctant to lend money," Wang was quoted as saying. "The ministry's financial status will be hard to improve in the near future." China Network Television has reported that the ministry was 1.98 trillion yuan in debt at the end of the first quarter, with an asset-liability ratio of 58.24 percent. This year, the ministry has issued bonds and commercial paper several times to alleviate its debt burden. 

The crash in July on a high-speed rail link killed 40 people and injured nearly 200, spurring rare expressions of public outrage and allegations that China was sacrificing safety in its rush to develop. Analysts and economists have been watching for signs that the country's five-year railway investment plan of 2.8 trillion yuan might be scaled back, affecting confidence in the sector. Zhang Hongbo, an analyst with Citic Securities Co Ltd, wrote in a research note that if construction of high-speed rail lines was halved in terms of length, as many have forecast, spending would be cut to less than 2 trillion yuan. In August, fixed-asset investment in rail projects declined by more than half year-on-year to about 35 billion yuan, according to figures from the ministry.

A reduction in investment, analysts said, could jeopardize a trillion-yuan level industry that revolves around the high-speed railway project, including CRGL and CRCCL. Since February, the shares of Hong Kong-listed CRGL have fallen by 70.2 percent, while those of CRCCL have declined 63.6 percent, against a 23 percent decline in the Hang Seng Index. Li Hao, an analyst with Beijing-based consulting firm Anbound, said that companies whose main businesses are linked with high-speed railways will definitely be hit hard. But he noted that high-speed lines only account for a small part of China's rail network and a slowdown won't hurt overall railway spending. "Shares of some railway companies, including CRGL and CRCCL, are oversold. High-speed railways are only a part of their business," he said. "Many railway companies and suppliers still have great potential even if construction of high-speed lines slows. China is set to build a lot of freight lines connecting the west and the east."


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## WatcherZero

A central government banking directive has also been issued that no bank is to lend to any rail infrastructure scheme. Capital available to the local government development agencies producing the schemes is drying up fast.


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## hmmwv

WatcherZero said:


> A central government banking directive has also been issued that no bank is to lend to any rail infrastructure scheme. Capital available to the local government development agencies producing the schemes is drying up fast.


There is no "central government directive" to stop bank loans, it's just the debt to asset ratio of MOR is scaring all the banks from issuing new loans, and a recent interest rate negotiation between major commercial banks and MOR collapsed. There is, however a directive to suspend all overseas HSR projects.


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## WatcherZero

Nope has been issued, their worried about banks Balance sheets and hidden debts. A 30km freight scheme has been approved today which relies directly on Central and Local government funds bypassing banks.


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## preservarbuenosaires

Cool!

MOR doesn't need to emit bonds. 
China has 3.200.000.000.000 U$S reserve, they could build whatever with no debt!


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## hmmwv

To the contrary, China's state owned banks are all publicly traded and they have to be responsible to their shareholders to a degree. The central government can force them to take on some risky loans to fund key projects, but they are less and less willing to do so in recent years. MOR, just like any other government ministries or even the central government, has its set budget for the year, when that budget run out it has to come up with its own funding. Also note a lot of the rail projects in China are regional ones which are funded by the local government, they have to secure loans to do the work just like any other commercial entities.


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## preservarbuenosaires

Yes, for sure.

But that's just China choice.
They still can choose to fund projects with reserves and build a train to Mars, Pluto or Andromeda!


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## UD2

After all these years, the Chinese banks suddenly realize the Debt/Asset ratio of the MOR is underwater? Right after a leadership change followed by a high-profile accident? And all in the same time that what used to be the zealous postings of Chinese railway information on this forum (into multiple threads) all but disappeared. 

With all due respect to the Chinese government but they need to fire their public relations department. A 14 year old girl can come up with a more convincing story. and i don't mind the stories either, but at least make them good stories.


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## chornedsnorkack

UD2 said:


> After all these years, the Chinese banks suddenly realize the Debt/Asset ratio of the MOR is underwater? Right after a leadership change followed by a high-profile accident?


Presumably because they had taken the implication that the limited assets of MOR were backed by state budget - which was no longer the case with new leadership.

All plans seem to be suspended now awaiting news of inquiries, or making of unpopular decisions (either to go on with dangerous projects or else cancel them - unpopular either way). And as stated one project that did get approval recently was small, slow freight rail, to be paid off rather than borrowed.

Do the official newspapers of China (incl. smaller local newspapers) write any stories about rail recently?


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## foxmulder

UD2 said:


> After all these years, the Chinese banks suddenly realize the Debt/Asset ratio of the MOR is underwater? Right after a leadership change followed by a high-profile accident? And all in the same time that what used to be the zealous postings of Chinese railway information on this forum (into multiple threads) all but disappeared.


I think most people just lost the enthusiasm also they are less official updates I guess. I don't think people posting updates were from the government...


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## Arul Murugan

*Nanjing South - Panorama---------> scroll*


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## boblee.bl

any news on Beijing-Wuhan high speed rail opening date?


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## hmmwv

foxmulder said:


> I think most people just lost the enthusiasm also they are less official updates I guess. I don't think people posting updates were from the government...


Absolutely, I have posted quite a few updates over the years and where is that damn CCP payment?! :bash:

Also the most exciting projects are completed now, when there is nothing to update, it's just natural that postings will slow down.


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## k.k.jetcar

> Nanjing South - Panorama---------> scroll


Where are all the people? That's a lot of flooring for the janitors to wax...


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## hmmwv

k.k.jetcar said:


> Where are all the people? That's a lot of flooring for the janitors to wax...


I see tons of people near the benches.


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## WatcherZero

Good and bad news, to make sure it shifts the Government will be selling the next round of Rail bonds with a 50% tax deduction on interest payments. The bad news is the workers of two of the main rail contractors havent been paid in two months, the Government is $5bn in arrears with them. The Ministry of Railways is struggling to meet the interest payments on its existing debt which is soaking up more and more of the money that was to be invested in infrastructure.


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## foxmulder

This sounds like a rumor to me. Why? I don't believe Chinese government has any problem related to money. 

However, if this is true this is more like the government is punishing the ministry and there are alternative motives, political games going on behind the scenes.


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## Arul Murugan

k.k.jetcar said:


> Where are all the people? That's a lot of flooring for the janitors to wax...


This pic was taken from south entrance which is not yet ready.. that is from 26th platform towards 1st platform side. Only North entrance is opened.. so it looks empty in the pic.

this pic is bigger...



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



hmmwv said:


> I see tons of people near the benches.


yes, though it was not peak hour


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## ukiyo

Here is the high speed rail from Hangzhou to Shanghai, I believe it went 350 km/h at this time...I took this in March. Enjoy


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## Railfan

Nice!


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## Pansori

Thanks, very interesting video. I'll most probably have a chance to use Hangzhou-Shanghai line next year. I think it was mentioned that the 350km/h speed was not reduced on this line? Is this still the case?


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## SimFox

AFAIK they all had been slowed down, finally even Beijing-Tianjin and Hangzhou-Shanghai both had "survived" first round of slow-downs. Prices had been cut as well. On BJ-TJ the whole 3rmb :lol: for second class. Travel time increased by about 5 min.


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## yaohua2000

SimFox said:


> AFAIK they all had been slowed down, finally even Beijing-Tianjin and Hangzhou-Shanghai both had "survived" first round of slow-downs. Prices had been cut as well. On BJ-TJ the whole 3rmb :lol: for second class. Travel time increased by about 5 min.


We had six rounds of speed-ups. We must have six rounds of slow-downs, at least. Thanks Mr. Sheng Guangzu.


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## :jax:

boblee.bl said:


> any news on Beijing-Wuhan high speed rail opening date?


Or Harbin-Dalian?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

chornedsnorkack said:


> Are these trains temporary and shall end after holidays, or was it an occasion to introduce new completed trains which remain in service after holidays?


Now that the golden week is over a week past, did the train frequency go back to previous or have more trains been taken into use permanently?


----------



## :jax:

boblee.bl said:


> any news on Beijing-Wuhan high speed rail opening date?


Or the opening date for Harbin-Dalian?


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## hmmwv

:jax: said:


> Or the opening date for Harbin-Dalian?


According to official reports all major systems are completed and the line is currently undergoing final equipment install and station decoration. Rumor is that it will open within the year. http://www.gov.cn/gzdt/2011-09/25/content_1956073.htm


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## ANR

*Lack of cash brings rail projects to a standstill*

Last Updated: 2011-10-19
Source: China Daily

Many migrant workers on China's new rail projects have not been paid for months, due to a shortage of funds caused by the country's tightened policies on loans, and many are without a job as projects come to a halt.
The situation affects millions of migrant workers hired to lay new track, say experts, who also warn that the country's new roads are facing similar financial problems. "An estimated 6 million migrant workers are employed by rail projects nationwide. If the projects cannot resume soon, these people and their families will all suffer," said Wang Mengshu, deputy chief engineer at China Railway Tunnel Group.

According to Wang, rail projects spanning a total of more than 10,000 kilometers, including 5,400 km of tunnels, have been suspended due to a shortage of funds and many migrant workers have not been paid for six months. The rail construction companies also owe big sums of money to cement and steel suppliers, he added. "The central government should make investments, pay the workers and suppliers, and complete the ongoing projects," Wang said. Both the Ministry of Railways and China Railway Group declined to comment when contacted by China Daily on Tuesday.

Wang said one of the reasons for the halting of rail projects is that the central government has tightened its monetary stance to curb soaring inflation. China has raised the reserve requirement ratio for banks nine times this year and hiked interest rates five times to check excessive lending. Also, doubts about high-speed railway technologies and management in the wake of a deadly bullet train crash in July have resulted in banks taking a more cautious attitude, Wang said. "The general environment for the high-speed railway industry is not good," said a source with China Railway First Group, a railway construction company. "With money from the stimulus plan worth 4 trillion yuan ($627 billion) drying up this year and its difficulty in securing bank loans, the rail sector is facing a capital chain rupture," said Zhao Jian, a professor of transport at Beijing Jiaotong University.

In a bid to help the crippled sector, authorities have agreed to take steps to secure financial support for major cash-strapped railway projects, Xinhua News Agency reported. The Ministry of Finance instituted a policy earlier this month to halve the tax on the interest earnings of bonds issued by the Ministry of Railways between the 2011-2013 period, in a bid to make the bonds more attractive.

The shortage of funds is also affecting the construction of new roads, the Ministry of Transport said in a report on Monday. "Some provinces have had no money to pay construction companies for two to three months, and a few projects are completely or partly suspended," the report said, adding that as a result, 20 percent of the work planned for this year may not be completed on time. The ministry forecast that the funds shortage could get worse in the fourth quarter this year, adding that it will try to secure funds for some projects and suspend others. The China Banking Regulatory Commission warned banks in late July of the risks associated with loans to the railway and road sectors.

According to plans, China aims to expand the national high-speed railway network from 91,000 km in 2010 to 120,000 km by 2015, and the expressway network from 74,100 km in 2010 to 108,000 km by 2015.


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## Woonsocket54

I hope this doesn't affect the scheduled opening of Nanjing-Hangzhou line. I don't think they've finished stringing the wire yet.


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## foxmulder

This may be a "counter strategy" from railway ministry. They simply saying "we create jobs."


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## hmmwv

Yeah whenever the jobs topic get brought onto the table the State Council will panic, and start injecting cash into the industry. The Chinese government is extremely sensitive to unemployment, when the government bailed out those major banks several years ago one of the fear is that inaction will cause the banks to halt lending due to high bad debt ratio, thus halt job growth. Right now the situation is a little different since they are trying to slow down the economy, therefore MOR's tactic won't be as effective, but will probably still work to an extend.


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## gramercy

*Tianjin West Railway Station*

http://www.archdaily.com/177795/tianjin-west-railway-station-gmp-architekten/









gmp architekten


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## foxmulder

Magnificent. It looks like a render.


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## HunanChina

CRH400A

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjUxMjUzOTE2.html


----------



## CarlosBlueDragon

ddes said:


> It took me about 45 to 55 minutes.
> 
> Or maybe it could be the intense fog (visibility of 100 metres) that was slowing my Beijing South-Tianjin train? Then again, the skies cleared up 3 hours later that same day, and it was barely hitting 300km/h. The highest I got was 294km/h on the return.


since in May I has saw 321km/h about 30min+ from Tianjin to Beijing South and got was 325km/h on the return :cheers:


----------



## Woonsocket54

Dear Passengers blog
http://www.dearpassengers.com/2011/...-of-beijing-hong-kong-hsr-to-open-early-2012/



> *Faster and Quicker: Guangzhou-Shenzhen Segment of Beijing-Hong Kong HSR To Open Early 2012*
> Posted on 28 October 2011 by David Feng
> 
> The long-awaited Guangzhou-Shenzhen segment of the Beijing-Hong Kong HSR will _finally_ open up in early in January 2012, in time for the 2012 Spring Festival peak travel season.
> 
> This stretch of the Beijing-Hong Kong HSR will be 142 km in length (which includes the Hong Kong segment). Trains will take about 30 minutes to run the stretch from Guangzhou South to Shenzhen North, and will run through:
> 
> _Beijing_
> …
> _Shijiazhuang_
> …
> Wuhan
> …
> *Guangzhou South*
> Qingsheng
> Humen
> Guangming
> *Shenzhen North*
> _Shenzhen Futian_
> _West Kowloon (Hong Kong) _
> 
> Missing now are the trains. Due to the lack of CRH380BL trains (recalled to optimize security systems on these trains), China’s HSR faces a temporary trainset shortage, but news is coming out that an increasing number of these recalled CRH380BL trains are slowly heading back onto the rails for tests and eventual re-entry into service.
> 
> In nearly-finalized schedules circulating on Sina Weibo, 70 “pairs” of trains will run on this line every day (a “pair” counts itself as a train running both ways: that’s a train to Shenzhen and a train back to Guangzhou). However, when the line first opens, all passengers must board and exit at Guangzhou South even if coming from destinations further north.
> 
> To make sure enough trains are available, some trains will remain “borrowed” from other railway bureaus. There are plans to transfer 14 CRH3C trainsets from the Beijing and Shanghai Railway Bureaus (together; not 14 _per bureau_). Of these, 9 trainsets will enter service on the new line. Initially, only 6 trainsets will service the new line, so we will probably only see 38 pairs of trains daily.
> 
> In future, though, we might see as many as 20 pairs of trains running on this line from Wuhan straight to Shenzhen North. It’ll get even more exciting once the Beijing-Shijiazhuang and Shijiazhuang-Wuhan segments open. It’ll probably take you just around 8 hours to reach the capital from Shenzhen!


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## Simfan34

coth said:


> It's not really necessary to post here rubbish from garbage, like FT or WSJ


Nonsense. The _Wall Street Journal_ and the _Financial Times_ are the world's most respected and widely read business papers, along with the _Bankers' Journal_.


----------



## coth

no, they are widely considered to be one of best examples of yellow press.


----------



## Pansori

coth said:


> no, they are widely considered to be one of best examples of yellow press.


WSJ yes. But FT? Its certainly not using tabloid style. Politically and ideologically motivated? Probably yes. But then again so is almost all media regardless of where it is.


----------



## hmmwv

HunanChina said:


> CRH380AL overtook CRH3
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzExNjI3ODA0.html


I've seen that on Huning too, what a interesting sight.


----------



## Northern Lotus

Pansori said:


> WSJ yes. But FT? Its certainly not using tabloid style. Politically and ideologically motivated? Probably yes. But then again so is almost all media regardless of where it is.


"_If you do not read newspapers, you are not informed. If you read newspapers, you are misinformed."_


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## Pansori

^^
So true. 
Personally, I try to read media from countries that have no direct interest of misinforming on a particular subject. It's not 100% safe but a good bet nonetheless once you look for more objectivity. Hence, I would typically give preference to Singaporean media on Asian, European and American business/economy news.


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## Silly_Walks

Pansori said:


> ^^
> So true.
> Personally, I try to read media from countries that have no direct interest of misinforming on a particular subject. It's not 100% safe but a good bet nonetheless once you look for more objectivity. Hence, I would typically give preference to Singaporean media on Asian, European and American business/economy news.


Like Singaporean outlets have nothing to gain from giving world economic news from their own perspective :lol:


----------



## HunanChina

I like this speed.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzE2OTA5Mjk2.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzE3MDIwMDIw.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzE2OTA2MzM2.html


----------



## coth

16 25-meter long cars in 5 seconds on second video

(25*16)/5*60*60 = ~290 kmph


----------



## coth

Pansori said:


> WSJ yes. But FT? Its certainly not using tabloid style. Politically and ideologically motivated? Probably yes. But then again so is almost all media regardless of where it is.


they both have pretty much same style. and that "article" above shows it well. it's not the first crap from FT.


----------



## Pansori

coth said:


> they both have pretty much same style. and that "article" above shows it well. it's not the first crap from FT.


Yeah, but WSJ is just a wholly different level. I follow their reads on high speed rail in China and US and FT at least tries to look serious for most part while WSJ doesn't even bother. Anyway, I have learnt one thing which is not to rely on a single news source regardless of its origin or ideology (or lack of it).


----------



## Restless

Pansori said:


> Yeah, but WSJ is just a wholly different level. I follow their reads on high speed rail in China and US and FT at least tries to look serious for most part while WSJ doesn't even bother. Anyway, I have learnt one thing which is not to rely on a single news source regardless of its origin or ideology (or lack of it).


I saw this recently

*Wall Street Journal circulation scam claims senior Murdoch executive*
*Andrew Langhoff resigns as European publishing chief after exposure of secret channels of cash to help boost sales figures*
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/oct/12/wall-street-journal-andrew-langhoff?newsfeed=true


----------



## hmmwv

Back on topic, the world's fastest HSR test platform became operational at Southwest Jiaotong University. It's capable of testing 600km/h class trainsets under various conditions.

近日，世界最高时速动车组运行试验平台在西南交通大学启用。该试验平台可以在每小时600公里的运行速度下模拟车组在不同线路干扰下运行，全方位实现对动车组运行性能的测试和参数的优化，从而确保列车的安全运行。该平台的启用标志着我国拥有了世界先进的高速列车研究平台。


----------



## AlexNL

hmmwv said:


> Back on topic, the world's fastest HSR test platform became operational at Southwest Jiaotong University. It's capable of testing 600km/h class trainsets under various conditions.


Good news for Alstom, now they'll have a place to go to the next time they want to shatter a world record, instead of having to rely on a not yet commercially used LGV


----------



## foxmulder

hmmwv said:


> Back on topic, the world's fastest HSR test platform became operational at Southwest Jiaotong University. It's capable of testing 600km/h class trainsets under various conditions.


Nice.. I am expecting many more records coming for high speed train sets.


----------



## Sopomon

AlexNL said:


> Good news for Alstom, now they'll have a place to go to the next time they want to shatter a world record, instead of having to rely on a not yet commercially used LGV


To be fair, I doubt wheel-on-rail technologies can get much faster than 600km/h without becoming extremely dangerous, just think of the centripetal forces acting on the wheels!
But still, it will be interesting to see what happens.


----------



## foxmulder

Sopomon said:


> To be fair, I doubt wheel-on-rail technologies can get much faster than 600km/h without becoming extremely dangerous, just think of the centripetal forces acting on the wheels!
> But still, it will be interesting to see what happens.


There is quite a way to reach 600km/h yet  We are just around 300-350 window now. Next big thing may be vacuum tube trains...


----------



## Arul Murugan

HunanChina said:


> I like this speed.
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzE2OTA5Mjk2.html
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzE3MDIwMDIw.html
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzE2OTA2MzM2.html


Nice :cheers:


----------



## hkskyline

*Railway ministry secures 50 bln yuan in loans: report*

BEIJING, Nov. 4 (Xinhua) -- China's Ministry of Railways has secured 50 billion yuan (7.89 billion U.S. dollars) in loans from banks, the Economic Information Daily reported Friday, citing Wang Mengshu, academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, as saying.

The loans, with the proceeds from bond issues and funds through other channels, will be used to pay off some of the ministry's creditors and finance railway projects that are currently under construction, the newspaper quoted Wang, also deputy chief engineer of the China Railway Tunnel Group.

The ministry has been faced with fund-raising difficulties after the fatal high-speed rail collision in July raised concerns about the reliability of the country's high-speed network.

Construction on more than 10,000 km of railways was halted in recent months due to lack of funds, leaving workers without pay, according to media reports.

At the end of June, the ministry's outstanding debt increased to 2.09 trillion yuan with its asset-liability ratio standing at 58.5 percent, official data showed.


----------



## Sopomon

Ever so slightly off-topic, but an interesting read nonetheless:
http://www.infrastructurist.com/201...ng-deeply-into-chinas-high-speed-rail-system/


----------



## foxmulder

^^ Original article:

http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2011/10/china-201110


----------



## hmmwv

Out of all places, Vanity Fair? ........... an interesting read nonetheless.


----------



## Woonsocket54

hmmwv said:


> Out of all places, Vanity Fair? ........... an interesting read nonetheless.


^^ an interesting read but not much more. The Vanity Fair article is full of so many errors that it makes one wonder if the author actually rode the train. 

In addition to the various issues spotted by the commenters at the bottom of the article, the author writes, "Twenty minutes later, I was paying particular attention to our approach to the vinegar-making city of Zhejiang, just south of the Yangtze, because I wanted to note, just for historical amusement, the precise point where our new railway line crossed the Grand Canal." Obviously Zhejiang is the name of a province, whereas he means Zhenjiang city in Jiangsu province.

As far as US magazines go, unless it's in Time or New Yorker, it probably wasn't fact-checked.


----------



## Sopomon

Woonsocket54 said:


> ^^ an interesting read but not much more. The Vanity Fair article is full of so many errors that it makes one wonder if the author actually rode the train.
> 
> In addition to the various issues spotted by the commenters at the bottom of the article, the author writes, "Twenty minutes later, I was paying particular attention to our approach to the vinegar-making city of Zhejiang, just south of the Yangtze, because I wanted to note, just for historical amusement, the precise point where our new railway line crossed the Grand Canal." Obviously Zhejiang is the name of a province, whereas he means Zhenjiang city in Jiangsu province.
> 
> As far as US magazines go, unless it's in Time or New Yorker, it probably wasn't fact-checked.


But it's an opinion piece, so really the facts don't have to be as stringently checked as if it were a news item.


----------



## city_thing

Vanity Fair actually is one of the best magazines for editorials and articles. It regularly has contributions by great, well respected writers like Christopher Hitchens.


----------



## hmmwv

city_thing said:


> Vanity Fair actually is one of the best magazines for editorials and articles. It regularly has contributions by great, well respected writers like Christopher Hitchens.


That's interesting, I have never personally read Vanity Fair before, always thought that's kinda of a girl magazine. I think as far as fact checks go, financial magazines such as Money are usually pretty good.


----------



## city_thing

^^ It's a great mag. Hitchens is currently dying from cancer and is writing about it in each issue - completely fascinating. It was also the first news source to release the name of Deep Throat (the mole that brought down Nixon).


----------



## stingstingsting

hmmwv said:


> That's interesting, I have never personally read Vanity Fair before, always thought that's kinda of a girl magazine. I think as far as fact checks go, financial magazines such as Money are usually pretty good.


Much like the Christian Science Monitor, the name initially deceived me as well. On the other hand, I find the CSM to be one of the most objective news sources one can find in the US, or even the world.


----------



## ANR

*Railway projects move at slow speed*

Updated: 2011-11-10 
By Xin Dingding 
China Daily

BEIJING - A number of high-speed railway projects slated to open this year will have their big day postponed to next year or later, railway construction companies said. A 200 km/h railway between Hefei and Bengbu in East China's Anhui province was set to be ready for operation by Nov 20 this year, but its debut has been postponed to next year, said an official with China Railway 4th Group Co Limited, insisting on anonymity. "Work on the project is still on ... but on a small scale, not in full swing," he said. A publicity official with the company said that the tracks could not be completely laid because of a money crunch that the railways ministry faces. "According to the contracts, the rails we lay out are provided by the project company established by the ministry. But it failed to provide the rails to us on time. That's why we still have not finished laying the tracks," she said.

Another rail project the company is involved in - the 350 km/h Shijiazhuang-Wuhan railway - is also set to have its opening postponed from this year to next year or later, she said. The laying of the tracks for the 840-km line, part of the north-south trunk line connecting Beijing, Guangzhou and Shenzhen, is complete. But the remaining work, such as testing the project's electricity supply, is not finished yet, she said. Zhang Cheng, deputy general manager of China Railway 11th Bureau Group Co Ltd, was quoted by Xinhua News Agency as saying that the delay resulted from railway authorities' carrying out national railway-safety overhauls after the Wenzhou train crash in July that killed 40 passengers. The safety checkups led to those projects making a slow progress, Zhang said. Xinhua reported that apart from the Shijiazhuang-Wuhan railway, three other railways coming out of Wuhan, capital of Central China's Hubei province, have been delayed too.

In Northeast China, a railway linking Harbin and Dalian, which is scheduled to open this year, is also sure to be delayed, because work on the line has been suspended since the accident and has not resumed yet, said an official with Shenyang railway bureau, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "In the past, speed was the most important thing. Nowadays, safety is the priority," he said. After the deadly crash, Sheng Guangzu, the railway minister, ordered a slowing down of the speed of all bullet trains and stressed that there should be no rush to finish construction work earlier than the stipulated period.

Insiders believe that the widespread delay in making new lines operational is also caused by a fund shortage faced by the ministry. The Ministry of Railways was reportedly unable to raise enough money to support the extensive railway construction spanning more than 10,000 km, as the cash flow was tightened and its reputation took a beating following the accident. But now with a fresh allotment of 200 billion yuan ($31.6 billion) from the central government, the railways ministry has promised to pay off some of its creditors before Nov 20 to guarantee the progress of key projects. On Tuesday, it auctioned 30 billion yuan worth of bonds. 

Still, the delay from this year to next year comes as a blow to some passengers who had expected to go on board fast trains soon. Cui Li, a 23-year-old woman in Bengbu of Anhui province, who travels to Hefei on business once a month, said she took a two-to-three hour bus ride between the two cities. "The new train service would take only 40 minutes (to cover the distance). The train currently available is an old one. It is really unpleasant to ride on," she said. "I heard the delay was to ensure safety, but the likelihood of high-speed train accidents is extremely small, almost the same as that on plane rides. My colleagues and I care more about convenience," she said.

But others supported the ministry's new emphasis on safety. Chen Tianhong, a 24-year-old student at Wuhan University from Jiangxi province, said it was very thoughtful of the government to delay opening new lines out of safety concerns. "A rapid expansion of transportation infrastructures will bring about more disasters someday. Safety issues require more attention than speed," he said.


----------



## Huhu

stingstingsting said:


> Much like the Christian Science Monitor, the name initially deceived me as well. On the other hand, I find the CSM to be one of the most objective news sources one can find in the US, or even the world.


CSM was created with the intention of cutting out sensationalist news reporting. I think it does a decent job.

For a China related article, read this and then come to your own conclusion: http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2011/1105/The-rise-of-an-economic-superpower-What-does-China-want


----------



## hkskyline

*Jobs crunch hits traffic engineering graduates*
China Daily

BEIJING, Nov. 10 -- Shi Xin, a fourth-year student of traffic engineering at Shijiazhuang Tiedao University, said he never expected looking for a job could turn out to be so arduous.

The graduate-to-be has attended two job fairs on the campus and sent his resume to more than 10 possible employers since September, but has not received a single response worth getting excited about.

"The demand for traffic engineering graduates was always robust," he said. "But this year the situation is reversed."

According to Shi, only about 50 of some 240 students in his major have found jobs. Most of them would have had better luck had they been in the job market this past year.

Dong Cang, Shi's classmate, said many major railway companies have slashed their number of new recruits.

"Jobs were cut to almost one fifth of the numbers last year as the industry was facing many troubles," he said.

Jin Mengmeng, who studies railway engineering, finds the current sluggish job market depressing, especially since she believes female candidates are up against tougher competition.

"Some of my seniors, who found employment this past year, were sent back home in September, waiting for job assignments," she said.

The construction of railways in China slowed down after a deadly train crash near Wenzhou in East China in July. The public also raised concerns over rail safety as two subway trains rear-ended in Shanghai two months later, injuring nearly 300 passengers.

Media reports said in mid-October that the country's rail projects, spanning 10,000 km, have been suspended due to a cash crunch. Many migrant workers had not been paid for six months while rail construction companies owed big sums to cement and steel suppliers.

In East China's Shandong province, new graduates specially trained to build tracks, bridges, tunnels and other railway-related features were taking up jobs in civil engineering as major employers, such as China Railway Group, delayed or canceled campus recruitment, the local newspaper Qilu Evening News reported.

"Jobs in the industry decreased by 60 percent to 80 percent this year, especially those in engineering and construction companies," said Hu Xiaoting, a recruitment specialist at tl.job1001.com, a Shenzhen-based website that provides human resources solutions for more than 3,000 railway enterprises.

"Work in related areas, such as power supply or railway signaling, was also affected," Hu said.

Huo Yamin, deputy head of the employment office at Southwest Jiaotong Univeristy, said there were new trends in the employment market.

"Students tend to sign work contract with employers very early instead of shopping around," she said.

"More students are willing to take up jobs in the western regions and at the grassroots level, which were less attractive before."

In order to help students find employment, the office encouraged them to be more flexible with choices, such as trying related professions in the booming industry of subway construction, Huo said.

The Chinese government has approved work on urban rail transit projects in 28 cities, covering a total length of 2,700 kilometers and needing an investment of more than 1 trillion yuan ($158 billion), according to China Communications and Transportation Association.

"We have seen that more and more job seekers are prone to finding a position in the urban railway industry," Hu Xiaoting said.

Although dismayed by the current results, Shi Xin is hopeful about the second round of campus recruitments, due in March.

"You never know about the ever-changing job market," he said. "And in the worst case scenario I would still find a job with a small house-building company, rather than be unemployed."


----------



## HunanChina

nice view , isn't it?

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzEwNDEwNjky.html



wuhan railway station

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQyNjU0MTQ4.html


----------



## HunanChina

18 seconds！

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzEzMjE4NDQw.html


http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzA4MzgwODU2.html


----------



## HunanChina

Nanjing South Railway Station

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzAwMTY4NDAw.html


http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzAwMTkxODc2.html


http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzAwMTcwNjEy.html


----------



## HunanChina

new design? I have no idea.

CRH3 evolution

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzIyMDY4OTEy.html

CRH-XXX road to future.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzIyMDY2MDQ4.html



http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzIyMDY5NjQw.html


----------



## HunanChina

delete


----------



## foxmulder

Maybe CRH 420?


----------



## hmmwv

I think we've seen that new design before, not sure they are still doing a CRH420 considering all the slowing downs, but may be a successor to 350km/h certified CRH2s.


----------



## Nozumi 300

Since we're talking about the design of the CRH420, is there any new info on the status of the CRH380D?


----------



## Sopomon

hmmwv said:


> I think we've seen that new design before, not sure they are still doing a CRH420 considering all the slowing downs, but may be a successor to 350km/h certified CRH2s.


Yes, I too have seen it before, though it's good to see such a nice design (hopefully) coming out.

I doubt it'll see service much above 350, as hmmwv said, due to slowdowns etc


----------



## HunanChina

a propaganda film of CRH, not too bad.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzI0MDg4ODM2.html


----------



## Silver Swordsman

^Excellent video there.


----------



## foxmulder

They could have shoot a real one... I hope they are shooting documentaries about this huge build up. Does anyone know what National Geographic or Discovery have been doing?


----------



## HunanChina

nice, overlook in the air.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzEwMzQ0NzEy.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzEzMDIzOTM2.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzA5NTMxODMy.html


----------



## HunanChina

a small CRH station, but nice. isn't it?

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjgzNzA2NjIw.html


----------



## hkskyline

*Zhaoqing's Xijiang Bridge main arches *
China Daily
update: 2011-11-24










On the morning of Nov 12, the main arches of the Xijiang Bridge on the Naning-Guangzhou railway in Zhaoqing, Guangdong province, were joined together after three years of construction.

Xijiang Bridge is located in the upstream of Sanrong Gorge. The bridge floor is 73.5 meters from the apex of the arch. It spans 450 meters, and is the longest railway arch bridge in terms of span length in the world.

The bridge is China's first mid-height, steel box deck arch bridge for railways, according to Zhang Chunxin, deputy general manager of China Zhongtie Major Bridge Engineering Group, contractor of the project.

Liu Chengliang, chief engineer of the Nanning-Guangzhou railway NGZ-8 project, said the bridge is 618.3 meters in full length. It will be completed by the end of next year. "The construction team is speeding up to finish the tail-in work after the arch is joined," Liu said. "The bridge floor is to be installed next month."

Nanning-Guangzhou railway is a key project listed in the nation's Mid and Long-term Plan for Railway Network Construction and the 11th Five-Year Plan for railways. It is a double-line electrified railway for passenger and cargo transportation, connecting Guangdong and Guangxi. Trains on the railway are designed to run at a minimum speed of 200 kilometers per hour. It will take about three hours to travel from Guangzhou to Nanning, saving 11 hours.


----------



## foxmulder

I like arc bridges. Is there any more pictures of this one?


----------



## HunanChina

I think it's the best of China.

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/Sx13ZUR0Rh4/


----------



## cnzhongke

china maquina de minerales~~~
www.chinazhongke.net/esp


----------



## Silver Swordsman

Guys, I don't know if any of you have spotted this, but I'm unnerved by the design in this picture:









link:http://img.ph.126.net/BUOeg0DMfoba04vtzQjTyA==/2493868293673245532.jpg

It clearly shows that the structural supports holding up the platform roofing are also used as catenary poles. To me, that is a disaster waiting to happen: does the name "Eschede" ring a bell for anyone? The world's worst high speed train accident was exacerbated by the fact that the bridge the train knocked down had its critical support pylons placed directly next to the track. Looking back at this CRH station, it seems that *any* derailment while the train is passing through the station could compromise the structural stability of this station. 



I'm not blasting the Chinese for "poor quality construction" for this. This just seems to be one of the many problems that arise when one swallows 40 years of expertise and tries to digest it in little more than five--the overlooking of small details. At least I'm glad that not all stations share this compromised design:









link: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Zhenjiang_CRH_Station_-_platforms_-_P1080117.JPG


----------



## Think

^^The photo don't work. I think it could be due to hot linking or something like that.


----------



## stingstingsting

cnzhongke said:


> china maquina de minerales~~~
> www.chinazhongke.net/esp


Hmm good point.

But from what it looks like, it seems to me that the catenary wires are attached to the pylons on one side of the platform only. That side seems to be for stopping trains. On the passing tracks in the middle (or left of picture), it seems that the poles are separate from the pylons. Which would be the safe method. Am I right?

That being the case, the trains on passing tracks would be for fast trains that are not stopping. So I dont think Eschede could happen here.


----------



## foxmulder

If a derailment happens at full speed in a station, roof is the last thing you would worry  Cars flying at 300km/h will demolish everything anyway. It is really a small station as far as I can tell so roof supports will be always under "danger".


----------



## Huhu

Could you put some markings on the picture so that we can better understand what you are talking about?


----------



## Smooth Indian

foxmulder said:


> If a derailment happens at full speed in a station, roof is the last thing you would worry  Cars flying at 300km/h will demolish everything anyway. It is really a small station as far as I can tell so roof supports will be always under "danger".


I guess if a derailment occurring at 300 km/h even in a small TGV station like Haute-Picardie there would be cars flying all over the place causing casualties and damaging any structures in the close vicinity. Perhaps they should have grade separated the passing tracks with crash barriers or some sort of shell to contain any derailing train. Or they could completely separate the passing tracks from the station tracks like the stations on HS1 in the UK. 

BTW the video renderings of Calif. HSR for stations at Fresno and Ontario airport also show similar layouts.


----------



## AlexNL

Smooth Indian said:


> I guess if a derailment occurring at 300 km/h even in a small TGV station like Haute-Picardie there would be cars flying all over the place


Don't forget that when that TGV derailed at cruising speed, nobody died because of the way the TGV is designed. Instead of 10 short TGV coaches flying around, the articulated design kept everything rigidly together so it was 200 meters of train derailing.

The disaster in Eschede wouldn't have been that big either, if that ICE had an articulated design.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

If there was a "full-blown" derailment (like natural jackknifing), then I would agree, it wouldn't make much of a difference. However, in most derailment cases, the train usually remains mostly on the track due to inertia, with minimal lateral shifting. The design of the station, specifically, the row of pillars between the tracks in the foreground and those in the background, substantially lower the margin for error, and hence, greatly reduce the margin of safety. 

Placing load-bearing pylons within two meters of a moving train... all that train has to do is to tip over by a few degrees and it's game over. hno:

@Huhu: See below picture. The pylons in question are circled in red. Note (the blue line) that they are very close to the tracks since they also serve as catenary poles. 










@AlexNL, I disagree that Eschede would have been better if the ICE used articulated carriages. Looking at the wreck, cars 1-3 stayed relatively upright even though they used normal carriages. The rest of the train knocked over and plowed into a 300 tonne bridge. Eschede was the worst-case scenario.


----------



## HunanChina

a propaganda film of CSR.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzMwNDAxMTM2.html


----------



## HunanChina

ugly CRH1E.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzMxMjE5MzQ0.html


----------



## FM 2258

HunanChina said:


> ugly CRH1E.
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzMxMjE5MzQ0.html


I get this error when I view from my work computer. What is it asking for? Thanks!


----------



## foxmulder

FM 2258 said:


> I get this error when I view from my work computer. What is it asking for? Thanks!


Works for me. Probably a missing plug in.


----------



## foxmulder

HunanChina said:


> a propaganda film of CSR.
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzMwNDAxMTM2.html


Loved the 380A production scenes.


----------



## HunanChina

try again.


----------



## HunanChina

FM 2258 said:


> I get this error when I view from my work computer. What is it asking for? Thanks!


try again...


----------



## FM 2258

foxmulder said:


> Works for me. Probably a missing plug in.


Which plug-in is it asking for? 



HunanChina said:


> try again.


Hmmm....trying again doesn't work. I thought it was asking for me to install something. I wish I could read the characters. 


Edit: It looks like the video might be blocked on the network at my workplace. Thanks guys! I'll just have to watch these at home.


----------



## hmmwv

That is a nice video of the 380A. On my recent trip to China I had to ride it on several occasions between Shanghai and Nanjing, I'm surprised by how large the overhead "bin" is. I was able to put one of my larger luggage on it without any problem, that bag would require checking on an airliner.


----------



## foxmulder

Well, if the distance is below 1000km, high speed rail is clear winner. Comfortable, really fast, energy efficient... I wouldn't even consider any other mode of travel.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Up to a 4-5 hour train trip i would prefer the train over flying, because it is less of a hassle and less of an obstruction of activities. Getting on the train takes about 10 minutes and then i can get back to work.


----------



## yaohua2000

Silly_Walks said:


> Up to a 4-5 hour train trip i would prefer the train over flying, because it is less of a hassle and less of an obstruction of activities. Getting on the train takes about 10 minutes and then i can get back to work.


Up to a 146 hour train trip i would prefer the train over flying anyway. Thanks. :lol:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

yaohua2000 said:


> Up to a 146 hour train trip i would prefer the train over flying anyway. Thanks. :lol:


Including Beijing-Moscow via Manzhouli, which is 143 hours.

What are the CRH sleeper trains doing currently?


----------



## yaohua2000

chornedsnorkack said:


> Including Beijing-Moscow via Manzhouli, which is 143 hours.
> 
> What are the CRH sleeper trains doing currently?


You forgot the opposite direction, Moscow to Beijing via Manzhouli, 145.85 hours.

I am looking forward to board this train in 2012 on January 28 at 23:55, arrive Beijing on February 4 at 05:46.


----------



## hhouse

yaohua2000 said:


> I am looking forward to board this train in 2012 on January 28 at 23:55, arrive Beijing on February 4 at 05:46.


Sorry for OT: But I hope we will see from this trip also such a nice report as from your last trips? 

On topic: What will be the next high-speed line put into operation? Since the train crash it has really slowed down extremely


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhouse said:


> On topic: What will be the next high-speed line put into operation? Since the train crash it has really slowed down extremely


What is clear. Guangzhou South-Longhua.
The question is when.


----------



## hhouse

chornedsnorkack said:


> What is clear. Guangzhou South-Longhua.
> The question is when.


Oh yeah, I formulated my question wrong... I meant "when"...  And what will follow after that line?

Harbian-Dalian still planned for July 2011? Hopefully yes, because if everything works, then I will be there (in Harbin) and would be able to use that line .


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhouse said:


> Oh yeah, I formulated my question wrong... I meant "when"...


Last news I heard about it were end of October. More than a month and a half ago.


hhouse said:


> Harbian-Dalian still planned for July 2011? Hopefully yes, because if everything works, then I will be there (in Harbin) and would be able to use that line .


And arrive in Yue yesterday.

July 2011 came and went. So did August 2011, September 2011, October 2011 and November 2011.


----------



## Galactic

chornedsnorkack said:


> Last news I heard about it were end of October. More than a month and a half ago.


It was really quiet for a while, but since November 30 there have been reports of the line opening "in December", "December 8", "by Spring Festival" or "December 28". Here's the most recent one:
What's on Shenzhen: Guangzhou-Shenzhen high-speed rail to start operation on Dec 28

How about Hefei-Bengbu, Hangzhou-Ningbo and Nanjing-Hangzhou lines? I haven't heard anything about those ones in a while.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Promised by Liu Zhijun for 2011 in January 2011
http://www.dearpassengers.com/2011/01/26/what-to-expect-from-china-railways-in-2011/

Beijing-Shanghai - done.

Which of the following are on time to be opened in 2012:
Harbin-Shenyang-Dalian
Beijing-Shijiazhuang
Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou
Zhengzhou-Wuhan
Guangzhou-Longhua - possibly in 2011?
Tianjin-Qinhuangdao
Nanjing-Huzhou-Hangzhou
Hangzhou-Ningbo
Xiamen-Longhua
Wuhan-Yichang
Hefei-Bengbu
Wuhan-Xiaogang
Wuhan-Xianning.


----------



## HunanChina

news about Guangzhou-Shenzhen CRH line

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzMyMjIxNTE2.html


----------



## HunanChina

Guangzhou-Shenzhen CRH line test run.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzM0MTU3OTMy.html


----------



## chornedsnorkack

When shall the ticket prices between Longhua and Guangzhou South be published?


----------



## HunanChina

chornedsnorkack said:


> When shall the ticket prices between Longhua and Guangzhou South be published?


You can get the ticket information from this site http://www.12306.cn

date: 2011-12-26


----------



## chornedsnorkack

HunanChina said:


> You can get the ticket information from this site http://www.12306.cn
> 
> date: 2011-12-26


Do you mean that the prices shall remain unknown till 26th of December?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Finally announced!*

Finally announced!
http://szdaily.sznews.com/html/2011-12/23/content_1877809.htm
Opening has been brough forward to to-morrow, 26th of December, 2011.
Price has been announced:
Guangzhou-Longhua RMB 75 in second class (compared to RMB 80 in second class of old Guangzhou-Shenzhen railway), RMB 100 in first class.
Trip time 35 minutes. 3 intermediate stops: Qingsheng, Humen, Guangming. 36 trains daily, departing 7:00 to 22:00.


----------



## Pansori

Only 36 trains a day? How many daily trains on the old Guangshen line?

Great news anyway!


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> Only 36 trains a day? How many daily trains on the old Guangshen line?


travelchinaguide.com finds 101 D trains from Shenzhen (from D7038 at 6:15 till D7076 at 23:18), from which 22 or so (from D7038 till D7130 at 20:21) go to Guangzhou (the rest terminate at Guangzhou East) plus 9 T and K trains.


----------



## bearb

Guangzhou - Shenzhen HSR is opening on 26th of December, 2011, which goes from Guangzhou South Station to Shenzhen North. It is a part of GZ-SZ-HK HSR: Guangzhou South - Qingsheng - Humen - Guangming City - Shenzhen North (- Futian - West Kowloon).

Shenzhen North Station:

view from metro Longhua Line's platform









view from east square






















































waiting hall


----------



## bearb

chornedsnorkack said:


> Do you mean that the prices shall remain unknown till 26th of December?


nonono, prices have been published..


----------



## bearb

Pansori said:


> Only 36 trains a day? How many daily trains on the old Guangshen line?
> 
> Great news anyway!


not 36 trains... there are 36 pairs of services... which means 72 in total (36 northbound, 36 southbound)..

GZ-SZ rail runs from 91 pairs up to 111 pairs daily.. from 182 trains to 222 trains in total.. but they stop at every stations between Shenzhen and Guangzhou(Guangzhou East)... the route(s) will be Shenzhen - Zhangmutou - Dongguan - Shilong - Guangzhou(Guangzhou East) - (Guangzhou East)..

For the GZ-SZ-HK HSR between GZ and SZ.. all the trains will definitely stop at Guangzhou South, Humen and Shenzhen North.. 5 pairs stop at Qingsheng and 9 pairs stop at Guangming City..

in the future.. more trains will be ran and may be trains from Shenzhen to Changsha, Wuhan, Shijiazhuang even Beijing...

well.. it is still a new choice for people..


----------



## nazrey

*China tests 500 kmph super high-speed train*
Published: Monday December 26, 2011 MYT 2:47:00 PM
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2011/12/26/reutersworld/20111226150108&sec=reutersworld

BEIJING (Reuters) - China launched a super-rapid test train over the weekend which is capable of travelling 500 kilometers per hour, state media said on Monday, as the country moves ahead with its railway ambitions despite serious problems on its high-speed network.

The train, made by a subsidiary of CSR Corp Ltd, China's largest train maker, is designed to resemble an ancient Chinese sword, the official Xinhua news agency reported.

It "will provide useful reference for current high-speed railway operations", it quoted train expert Shen Zhiyun as saying.

But future Chinese trains will not necessarily run at such high speeds, CSR chairman Zhao Xiaogang told the Beijing Morning News.

"We aims to ensure the safety of trains operation," he said.

China's railway industry has had a tough year, highlighted by a collision between two high-speed trains in July which killed at least 40 people. Construction of new high-speed trains in China has since been a near halt.

In February, the railways minister, Liu Zhijun, a key figure behind the boom in the sector, was dismissed over corruption charges that have not yet been tried in court.









http://www.thesundaily.my/news/248860
Visitors board a new testing model of a CSR high-speed bullet train 
during its launching ceremony in Qingdao, Shandong province Dec 23, 2011. REUTERS


----------



## sc4

^^ The nose really does resemble a chinese sword


----------



## yaohua2000

*More pics on CIT500*

The trainset consists of 6 cars, total rated power 22800 kW.

http://bbs.hasea.com/thread-445279-1-1.html


----------



## AlexNL

yaohua2000 said:


> The trainset consists of 6 cars, total rated power 22800 kW.
> 
> http://bbs.hasea.com/thread-445279-1-1.html


That is even more power than the V150 train that set the current world record in 2007 had: 19,600 kW.


----------



## Rodalvesdepaula

nazrey said:


> *China tests 500 kmph super high-speed train*
> Published: Monday December 26, 2011 MYT 2:47:00 PM
> http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2011/12/26/reutersworld/20111226150108&sec=reutersworld
> 
> BEIJING (Reuters) - China launched a super-rapid test train over the weekend which is capable of travelling 500 kilometers per hour, state media said on Monday, as the country moves ahead with its railway ambitions despite serious problems on its high-speed network.
> 
> The train, made by a subsidiary of CSR Corp Ltd, China's largest train maker, is designed to resemble an ancient Chinese sword, the official Xinhua news agency reported.
> 
> It "will provide useful reference for current high-speed railway operations", it quoted train expert Shen Zhiyun as saying.
> 
> But future Chinese trains will not necessarily run at such high speeds, CSR chairman Zhao Xiaogang told the Beijing Morning News.
> 
> "We aims to ensure the safety of trains operation," he said.
> 
> China's railway industry has had a tough year, highlighted by a collision between two high-speed trains in July which killed at least 40 people. Construction of new high-speed trains in China has since been a near halt.
> 
> In February, the railways minister, Liu Zhijun, a key figure behind the boom in the sector, was dismissed over corruption charges that have not yet been tried in court.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.thesundaily.my/news/248860
> Visitors board a new testing model of a CSR high-speed bullet train
> during its launching ceremony in Qingdao, Shandong province Dec 23, 2011. REUTERS


A nice (but, extravagant) train...


----------



## Silly_Walks

sc4 said:


> ^^ The nose really does resemble a chinese sword


No no, like i said in the other topic, this will be the Toucan Train :lol:


----------



## bearb

other two designs of the CIT500


----------



## Sopomon

bearb said:


> other two designs of the CIT500


Unfortunately only concepts. They look many millions of times better than this "toucan"


----------



## ANR

*High speed rail to link Shenzhen Guangzhou*

Updated: 2011-12-26 
By Li Wenfang 
China Daily

GUANGZHOU - Service on the 102-km high-speed railway between Shenzhen and Guangzhou, in South China's Guangdong province, is scheduled to start on Monday. The fast trains will be a new option for the many passengers between the two economically developed cities adjacent to Hong Kong, where the railway will extend to in 2015. A non-stop trip between the Guangzhou South Station and the Shenzhen North Station will take 35 minutes at full speed, 34 minutes faster than the 139-km rail link between the Guangzhou East Station and Luohu Station in Shenzhen, according to the Guangzhou Railway Group Corp. The trains will run at a maximum hourly speed of 300 km initially. All 36 pairs of trains that will run daily, mainly CRH3-model cars, will stop at the Humen Station in Dongguan city, with five pairs also stopping at Qingsheng Station in Guangzhou and nine pairs at the Guangmingcheng Station in Shenzhen.

A one-way first-class ticket costs 100 yuan ($15.87) and a second-class one, 75 yuan. The latter fare is 5 yuan cheaper than a second-class ticket on the slower line. High-speed service between Guangzhou and Shenzhen will be a convenient choice for some people, especially those living in or traveling close to the five stations and those transferring to other high-speed trains from Guangzhou. The terminals are connected to the subway systems of the two cities. "I won't need to travel to Guangzhou East Station to take a train to Shenzhen," said Wang Yi, who lives in Panyu district in Guangzhou. 

Many will still prefer the slower trains, given that their terminals in Guangzhou and Shenzhen are located in the city proper. The terminals of the high-speed trains are situated in less-populated areas of both cities. "To me, it is inconvenient to take a high-speed train between Guangzhou and Shenzhen because it is time-consuming to get to the Guangzhou South Station in the first place and to travel on from the Shenzhen North Station," said Zhang Lu, who lives in downtown Guangzhou. Slower trains also run more frequently.

However, many expect the high-speed trains to become more attractive when the line extends to Hong Kong in 2015. High-speed trains will also offer more advanced facilities than ordinary ones, including more comfortable seats, audio and video entertainment and power outlets in the first-class carriages. There will also be toilets for the disabled and a baby changing station. A Guangzhou-Shenzhen high-speed train has 556 seats, including 16 in the VIP rooms, 50 in first class and 50 in the dining carriage.

China's railway projects have been burgeoning since the country rolled out a 4 trillion yuan stimulus plan to counter the financial crisis of 2008. But the sector was hit hard in the second half of 2011, after the government tightened liquidity, and a deadly train crash eroded investor confidence and limited the ministry's ability to raise money. In 2012, the government plans to cut spending on railway infrastructure construction to 400 billion yuan from 469 billion yuan this year, Railways Minister Sheng Guangzu said last week.


----------



## AlexNL

Sopomon said:


> Unfortunately only concepts. They look many millions of times better than this "toucan"


A more important question is: will the train ever be tested at 500 km/h? Given the Chinese governments cutbacks on rail spending, the openings of lines under construction and the slowing down of operational CRH trains, where will CIT-500 be tested to see if it can actually go 500 km/h?

Reminded you that for the V150 record in 2007, Alstom, SNCF and RFF used the LGV Est, which was not yet in commercial service at that time. Also, some adjustments were made such as increasing the OHLE voltage to 31 kV. 

Does China have any high speed lines where CIT-500 can be tested in such a way without disrupting passenger services?


----------



## hmmwv

AlexNL said:


> Does China have any high speed lines where CIT-500 can be tested in such a way without disrupting passenger services?


Yes, Harbin-Dalian HSR (900+km) and Shijiazhuang-Wuhan PDL (840km) are mostly finished now, test runs for both lines will start next March and commercial service will start in the summer.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

ANR said:


> Updated: 2011-12-26
> By Li Wenfang
> China Daily
> 
> GUANGZHOU - Service on the 102-km high-speed railway between Shenzhen and Guangzhou, in South China's Guangdong province, is scheduled to start on Monday. The fast trains will be


Future tense, for some reason.


ANR said:


> A non-stop trip between the Guangzhou South Station and the Shenzhen North Station will take 35 minutes at full speed, 34 minutes faster than the 139-km rail link between the Guangzhou East Station and Luohu Station in Shenzhen, according to the Guangzhou Railway Group Corp. The trains will run at a maximum hourly speed of 300 km initially. All 36 pairs of trains that will run daily, mainly CRH3-model cars, will stop at the Humen Station in Dongguan city,


But there were no non-stop trips.
How long did the express trips (with the single stop at Humen) take?


ANR said:


> A Guangzhou-Shenzhen high-speed train has 556 seats, including 16 in the VIP rooms, 50 in first class and 50 in the dining carriage.


How convenient was it to consume a dinner in 35 minutes?


----------



## bearb

chornedsnorkack said:


> Future tense, for some reason.
> 
> But there were no non-stop trips.
> How long did the express trips (with the single stop at Humen) take?
> 
> 
> How convenient was it to consume a dinner in 35 minutes?


28 minutes without stopping
36 minutes with a stop at HUMEN
43 minutes with stops at QINGSHENG and HUMEN
44 minutes with stops at HUMEN and GUANGMING CITY
51 minutes with stops at all QINGSHENG, HUMEN and GUANGMING CITY

every train in China probably will have a dinning car... and trains from Shenzhen will not only terminate at Guangzhou South, but keep going north to Changsha and Wuhan. this will be discussed after Chinese new year holiday.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

bearb said:


> GZ-SZ rail runs from 91 pairs up to 111 pairs daily.. from 182 trains to 222 trains in total.. but they stop at every stations between Shenzhen and Guangzhou(Guangzhou East)... the route(s) will be Shenzhen - Zhangmutou - Dongguan - Shilong - Guangzhou(Guangzhou East) - (Guangzhou East)..


Do you mean that D trains which travel from Shenzhen to Zhangmutuo in 20 minutes meanwhile stop at Pinghu, Tiantangwei and Tangtouxia stations?


----------



## Arul Murugan

I have doubt on Xian-Shanghai service.

There are G trains in operation b/w Xian and Zhengzhou covering 500KM in 2hours. D trains does the same in 2hrs 50min.

Zhengzhou to Xuzhou/Xuzhou east D trains are in operation covering 364KM in 3hours.

From Xuzhou East to Shanghai Hongqiao, Jinghu PDL is available even Zhengzhou-Shanghai D train use this line. 626KM is covered in 4hrs 10min.

So a D train from Xian to Shanghai could cover 1490KM in 10hours. But travelchinaguide.com is showing there is no D train from Xian to Shanghai and the fastest available train to Xian from Shanghai is Z94/91 covering 1500KM approx in 14hrs. 

And is there any parallel 310KMPH line (operational speed) u/c b/w Zhengzhou and Xuzhou or the existing line will remain as Island of 200KMPH?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

I note a general lack of high speed through trains.

Consider Shanghai-Guangzhou. Connecting two greatest cities of China and the world. High speed railway has existed all the way between Guangzhou and Nanjing since 2009, and to Shanghai since 2010.

Still no direct high speed connection. On Guangzhou-Wuhan high speed railway, G trains cover the distance in 3:33 - but not a single G or D train continues beyond Wuhan! Absolutely all trains past Wuhan go on old line and take 10:15 or more to Wuhan alone. Then there is the 200 km/h railway Wuhan-Hefei-Nanjing. D trains travel Wuhan-Shanghai in 5:10 - but not a single one of them continues beyond Wuhan.

It should be possible to travel on high speed rails Shanghai-Wuhan-Guangzhou in under 9 hours. Yet the fastest direct train Shanghai-Guangzhou is T100, taking 15:57 on old lines.

What is getting done about it?


----------



## foxmulder

> China bullet train crash 'caused by design flaws'
> 
> China's cabinet has received the official report into the crash
> 
> A bullet train crash which killed 40 people in China in July was caused by design flaws and sloppy management, the Chinese government says.
> 
> Almost 200 people were injured in the crash near the south-eastern city of Wenzhou.
> 
> "Missteps" by 54 officials led to the disaster, the long-awaited official report says.
> 
> The crash led many Chinese to accuse the government of putting development and profit before safety.
> 
> It also triggered a wave of popular anger against officials who were accused of trying to cover up the seriousness, and causes, of the crash.
> 
> Lightning strike
> After receiving the report, China's cabinet criticised the railways ministry for lax safety standards and poor handling of the crash, according to Reuters.
> 
> Premier Wen Jiabao was presented with the official investigation's conclusions at a cabinet meeting on Wednesday.
> 
> The accident occurred after one train stalled following a lightning strike, and then a second high-speed train ran into it. Four carriages were thrown off a viaduct.
> 
> The report found that serious design flaws in control equipment and improper handling of the lightning strike led to the crash.
> 
> More serious penalties could follow for some of the 54 officials criticised in the report.
> 
> Among the officials singled out was the former railways minister, Liu Zhijun, who was sacked before the crash, accused of corruption.
> 
> *Liu "has the main leadership responsibility for the accident," the report says.*
> 
> Following the accident, the authorities called a temporary halt to new high-speed rail projects and placed speed restrictions on trains.
> 
> High-speed ambitions
> China had planned to lay 16,000km (10,000 miles) of high-speed track by 2015, which would make it the biggest high-speed rail network in the world.
> 
> It had hoped to make its rapidly developing railway technology an export success: Chinese train companies were aspiring to compete with Germany's Siemens and Canada's Bombardier by selling their technologies to foreign companies.
> 
> 
> China aspires to export its high-speed rail technology
> But after July's crash that looks less likely.
> 
> The railways ministry said on Friday that it planned to invest 400 billion yuan ($63bn; £40bn) in infrastructure construction in 2012, which is lower than the figure for this year.
> 
> The current minister, Sheng Guangzu, said that *rapid railway development should be maintained, as it "plays an important role in the country's social and economic development, especially in boosting domestic demand,"* according to the Chinese government's website.


I think, two bold parts are the significant parts. This old minister guy is finished, general policy does not change.


----------



## Woonsocket54

so has the new Shenzhen-Guangzhou HSR opened? I don't see scheduled trains to Shenzhen North on the English-language timetables in cnvol.com or travelchinaguide.com.


----------



## yaohua2000

Woonsocket54 said:


> so has the new Shenzhen-Guangzhou HSR opened? I don't see scheduled trains to Shenzhen North on the English-language timetables in cnvol.com or travelchinaguide.com.


Yes, it has.


----------



## hmmwv

The timetable and remaining tickets info does show up on the official ticket booking site 12306.cn, but that's only in Chinese.


----------



## Arul Murugan

chornedsnorkack said:


> I note a general lack of high speed through trains.
> 
> Consider Shanghai-Guangzhou. Connecting two greatest cities of China and the world. High speed railway has existed all the way between Guangzhou and Nanjing since 2009, and to Shanghai since 2010.
> 
> Still no direct high speed connection. On Guangzhou-Wuhan high speed railway, G trains cover the distance in 3:33 - but not a single G or D train continues beyond Wuhan! Absolutely all trains past Wuhan go on old line and take 10:15 or more to Wuhan alone. Then there is the 200 km/h railway Wuhan-Hefei-Nanjing. D trains travel Wuhan-Shanghai in 5:10 - but not a single one of them continues beyond Wuhan.
> 
> It should be possible to travel on high speed rails Shanghai-Wuhan-Guangzhou in under 9 hours. Yet the fastest direct train Shanghai-Guangzhou is T100, taking 15:57 on old lines.
> 
> What is getting done about it?


This looks to be another important D train missing link. Though one can say Wuhan, Zhengzhou, Xuzhou plays hub and transit role, but still there should be one or two direct service to main cities.

If I am correct Guangzhou-Shanghai have there high speed routes.

1. Guangzhou-Zhuzhou-Xiangtang-Jinhua-Hangzhou-Shanghai - present prime route and which is upgraded to 200KMPH. It takes 15hrs 57min for 1818KM with T trains.

2. Wugang PDL 310KMPH line, Wuhan-Hefei-Nanjing south 250KMPH new line, From Nanjing south Jinghu PDL - 1069KM+827KM = 1896KM, So 6hrs+6hrs 30min - Close to 13hours is needed for D train.

3. Shanghai-Xiamen, Xiamen-Shenzhen under construction and Shenzhen-Guangzhou - 1123KM+502KM+147KM = 1772KM - 8hr 35min+3hrs (projected)+1hr 20min - 13hrs approx for D train.

And 4th route would be under construction Shanghai-Kunming line intersecting at Changsha? If this u/c line have 310KMPH operational speed, then Shanghai-Guangzhou travel with G train will come down to 7hours.


----------



## ANR

*High-speed rails to circle Hainan*

Last Updated:2011-12-29 
Source:Xinhua

Hainan, the tropical Chinese resort island, will start the construction of a high-speed railway on its western coast next year, authorities said. The new rails, dubbed the Western Ring Railway, is planned to link up with the Eastern Ring Railway, which started operation a year ago, and form a circuit around the island. Construction at the first section of the new Western Ring, which links up with the Phoenix Airport and the tourist city of Sanya, is scheduled to start in February. However, for the rest of the sections, construction may begin in the latter half of 2012, according to a statement issued Wednesday at a meeting held by the Ministry of Railways and Hainan province.

The Western Ring, which is expected to cost 27.1 billion yuan ($4.3 billion) and require four years, will stretch 344 kilometers and pass 12 stations along the island's western coast. Trains will travel at a maximum speed of 250 km per hour.

High-speed rails have greatly boosted tourism in Hainan, said Jiang Dingzhi, deputy Party chief of the province. According to Jiang, nearly 10 million tourists have traveled by the Eastern Ring since it started operation in December 2010. The 308-kilometer railway links the capital Haikou at the northern end of the province to Sanya, a tourist city in the south.









_Map of Hainan West Ring high speed_


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> I note a general lack of high speed through trains.
> 
> Consider Shanghai-Guangzhou. Connecting two greatest cities of China and the world. High speed railway has existed all the way between Guangzhou and Nanjing since 2009, and to Shanghai since 2010.
> 
> Still no direct high speed connection. On Guangzhou-Wuhan high speed railway, G trains cover the distance in 3:33 - but not a single G or D train continues beyond Wuhan! Absolutely all trains past Wuhan go on old line and take 10:15 or more to Wuhan alone. Then there is the 200 km/h railway Wuhan-Hefei-Nanjing. D trains travel Wuhan-Shanghai in 5:10 - but not a single one of them continues beyond Wuhan.
> 
> It should be possible to travel on high speed rails Shanghai-Wuhan-Guangzhou in under 9 hours. Yet the fastest direct train Shanghai-Guangzhou is T100, taking 15:57 on old lines.
> 
> What is getting done about it?


The preferred Shanghai-Guangzhou route is the future Southeast Coastal PDL, which is currently under construction and is expected to be completed by the end of next year. Since the line between Wuhan and Nanjing is only 250km/h rated, that's probably why there are no G trains travel through that section. Right now even if there are direct train between Shanghai and Guangzhou it'd be a D train, and the long journey is simply not competitive compare to air travel.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> Since the line between Wuhan and Nanjing is only 250km/h rated, that's probably why there are no G trains travel through that section. Right now even if there are direct train between Shanghai and Guangzhou it'd be a D train, and the long journey is simply not competitive compare to air travel.


There is a direct D train between Beijing and Fuzhou, namely D365. It covers Beijing South-Hangzhou in 9:26 - 7:50 to 17:16. Then it continues to Fuzhou in 5:25 - the fastest D trains are 5:13.

Total being 14:53 - from 7:50 to 22:43. Somehow it is competitive with air travel.

Fastest train Shanghai-Wuhan is D3006/D3007, taking 5:11. D train Wuhan-Guangzhou takes 5:57.

A direct D train Shanghai-Guangzhou should be feasible in slightly over 11 hours. It should be competitive with air, considering that the nearly 15 hour Beijing-Fuzhou train is.


----------



## hmmwv

Well right now most flights from Shanghai Hongqiao to Guangzhou is about 2 hours 40 minutes, so even with security check in time it's still almost three times as fast as current HSR solution.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> Well right now most flights from Shanghai Hongqiao to Guangzhou is about 2 hours 40 minutes, so even with security check in time it's still almost three times as fast as current HSR solution.


Yes, but what are most flights from Beijing to Fuzhou?


----------



## hmmwv

Beijing-Fuzhou flight is the same at 2 hr 40 min. The fact is that the Beijing-Fuzhou direct D train is not competitive neither, that's why there are so few direct D trains on that route. The first direct Beijing-Fuzhou train was D371 which started on Feb 5th 2010, and service stopped two months later on April 13th 2010 due to low ticket sales. The service was reintroduced in July 2011 along with the new timetable. I believe it's part of the MOR's new directive to provide more long distance trains at a lower price. That train journey is so long because the 200km long Hangzhou-Ningbo section has a 140km/h speed limit, and it stops at more major cities than other services, with multiple 10 minute stops, and it stops at Shanghai for 25 minutes.

The full price of a Beijing-Fuzhou flight is RMB 1500, but most airline tickets are heavily discounted in China so realistically you can get one for RMB 800-900, which is still higher than the RMB 690 D train second class seat price, but not by much. The D train's first class seat is RMB 985, the cheapest sleeping train ticket is almost RMB 1200. Regarding why there is no Shanghai-Guangzhou D train, maybe MOR decided it makes financial sense not to extend the loss beyond the current Beijing-Fuzhou service. For me I don't mind that there is no direct Shanghai-Guangzhou service at all, at least not until the Southeast Coastal PDL is completed.


----------



## Arul Murugan

^^

More than end to end passengers. Beijing-Fuzhou D train will serve intermediate passengers going to Hangzhou, Ningbo, Fuzhou from Shandong/North of Jiangsu province.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> That train journey is so long because the 200km long Hangzhou-Ningbo section has a 140km/h speed limit, and it stops at more major cities than other services, with multiple 10 minute stops, and it stops at Shanghai for 25 minutes.


Yet D365 is the fastest D train Beijing-Shanghai out of the 4 day trains.
The next, D315, for some reason, stops at:
Tianjin South for 13 minutes
Cangzhou West for 13 minutes
Taian for 8 minutes
Zhaozhuang for 16 minutes
Xuzhou East for 11 minutes
Dingyuan for 9 minutes
Zhenjiang South for 12 minutes
Changzhou North for 14 minutes
Wuxi East for 17 minutes
Suzhou North for 19 minutes.

If these all were cut to 2 minutes, that would save 112 minutes.


----------



## Stainless

Silly_Walks said:


> In my country you can go to a machine and buy a ticket with your debit card or cash, in about a minute.
> 
> In China i had to stand in line for an hour.
> 
> That is the point i am trying to make.
> 
> Really, you need to be able to take constructive criticism.


I had this problem, the queues were huge for both. But someone next to me swiped theirs and it wasn't a problem getting on the train without that card. Not sure if this has changed though.


----------



## Pansori

Silly_Walks said:


> Exactly. They could use passport number, visa number, whatever.


Most passports use RFID chips these days anyway. Therefore technically it should not be a problem to accept such passports at ticket machines. For example, I can pass the border check using automatic biometric passport readers in some UK airports and not have any contact with border security staff. They can easily do that in Chinese railway stations. This is rather hard to understand because there are no technical or any other reasons whatsoever not to accept foreign passports.


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## hmmwv

In the US you don't need to present your ID when purchasing train tickets, but that's not the point, I understand why MOR require people to match ID with tickets in China due to the ticket gouging problem. The issue here is that compare to European or Japanese HSR systems, it's very inconvenient for foreigners to buy CRH ticket. For example at Shanghai Station instead of going straight into the automatic ticket hall to buy ticket from the kiosk. I have to drag my luggage about 300m, cross a street via underground passageway, and then waiting in line for 20 minutes alongside people who are there fighting to get a refund of their normal train tickets. By the time I reach the window it only took two to three minutes to actually buy the ticket, the agent just input my passport number into the computer and that's it. If they can access the system that way, why not allow passengers to book tickets online at 12306.cn or at the kiosks by putting in their nationality and passport number ourselves?



> Most passports use RFID chips these days anyway.


 My 2006 US passport doesn't have RFID.


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## Pansori

hmmwv said:


> In the US you don't need to present your ID when purchasing train tickets, but that's not the point, I understand why MOR require people to match ID with tickets in China due to the ticket gouging problem. The issue here is that compare to European or Japanese HSR systems, it's very inconvenient for foreigners to buy CRH ticket. For example at Shanghai Station instead of going straight into the automatic ticket hall to buy ticket from the kiosk. I have to drag my luggage about 300m, cross a street via underground passageway, and then waiting in line for 20 minutes alongside people who are there fighting to get a refund of their normal train tickets. By the time I reach the window it only took two to three minutes to actually buy the ticket, the agent just input my passport number into the computer and that's it. If they can access the system that way, why not allow passengers to book tickets online at 12306.cn or at the kiosks by putting in their nationality and passport number ourselves?
> 
> My 2006 US passport doesn't have RFID.


May happen for 2006 passports. But post 2008 or so passports mostly have them. My passport is from 2008 and it applies to most countries be it India or France. They carry such little sign on the front page:










By now it's a standard. It doesn't take much to order a new passport anyway if you think you could benefit from it.

By any means they should allow biometric passport holders to use the ticket machines. Or even type their name and passport number manually for everyone else. What's the big deal?


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## maldini

Pansori said:


> May happen for 2006 passports. But post 2008 or so passports mostly have them. My passport is from 2008 and it applies to most countries be it India or France. They carry such little sign on the front page:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By now it's a standard. It doesn't take much to order a new passport anyway if you think you could benefit from it.
> 
> By any means they should allow biometric passport holders to use the ticket machines. Or even type their name and passport number manually for everyone else. What's the big deal?


Many passports do not have these chips. Many passports still need another 5 or 10 years before they will be renewed and replaced by passports with the chips.


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## Pansori

maldini said:


> Many passports do not have these chips. Many passports still need another 5 or 10 years before they will be renewed and replaced by passports with the chips.


It doesn't take much (or cost much) to change a passport to a new one.


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## AlexNL

Why are there passport checks when buying CRH tickets? I can understand a safety check (screening luggage, as they do in Spain and at the Eurostar terminals), but a passport check doesn't seem to make sense to me.

Anyone can tell me why?


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## Silver Swordsman

AlexNL said:


> Why are there passport checks when buying CRH tickets? I can understand a safety check (screening luggage, as they do in Spain and at the Eurostar terminals), but a passport check doesn't seem to make sense to me.
> 
> Anyone can tell me why?


I think it's to curb the vendor abuse: there was this really big problem in that these people would buy a LOT of train tickets and resell them at higher values when the seats are sold out. Having your passport as confirmation obviously makes it much harder to pull off these kind of stunts. 

I'm glad that China's taking the steps to reduce corruption and thievery in their system. Go China!


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## Mika Montwald

Silly_Walks said:


> ... ..., you need to be able to take constructive criticism.


Constructive criticism are welcome all the time. 

Frankly, IMHO ... ...

In China, they are still generally rather backward in terms of designing good cloud based software applications.
Most people in China who have the resources (the wealthy & the powerful) are seriously lacking innovative out of the box thinking to support any out of the box software developing no-name (academically not famous) startups.

These inside the box people in China only have the intellectual capacity to invest in idiotic fields such as real estate or garlic or red wine.

This fact above (inside the box investors) is causing a long term ulcer for the Beijing central government.


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## hmmwv

Well I disagree about cloud based software, many Chinese companies such as Sina, Tencent, or Kingsoft have some of the best cloud based applications. Having said that, most Chinese government websites are utterly POS, take 12306.cn as an example, it didn't even carry the MS authentication license so it gets blocked by IE for many people, and it has to provide a link so you can download the license manually.


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## Pansori

AlexNL said:


> Why are there passport checks when buying CRH tickets? I can understand a safety check (screening luggage, as they do in Spain and at the Eurostar terminals), but a passport check doesn't seem to make sense to me.
> 
> Anyone can tell me why?


To neutralize ticket scammers?


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## Geography

> I think it's to curb the vendor abuse: there was this really big problem in that these people would buy a LOT of train tickets and resell them at higher values when the seats are sold out. Having your passport as confirmation obviously makes it much harder to pull off these kind of stunts.


Why is this a problem? What does CRH care who buys the tickets as long as they are sold? Ticket scalpers exist when the face value of a ticket is lower than the market value of a ticket. It's easy for scalpers to buy low and sell high. If the scalpers misjudge the situation and buy too many tickets, they lose a lot of money. No need for Big Brother to start requiring real name tickets, just float the ticket prices to market value.


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## XAN_

Geography said:


> Why is this a problem? What does CRH care who buys the tickets as long as they are sold? Ticket scalpers exist when the face value of a ticket is lower than the market value of a ticket. It's easy for scalpers to buy low and sell high. If the scalpers misjudge the situation and buy too many tickets, they lose a lot of money. No need for Big Brother to start requiring real name tickets, just float the ticket prices to market value.


Maybe CRH tickets are (partly?) refundable?


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## foxmulder

Geography said:


> Why is this a problem? What does CRH care who buys the tickets as long as they are sold? Ticket scalpers exist when the face value of a ticket is lower than the market value of a ticket. It's easy for scalpers to buy low and sell high. If the scalpers misjudge the situation and buy too many tickets, they lose a lot of money. No need for Big Brother to start requiring real name tickets, just float the ticket prices to market value.


What are you talking about?? Scalping is illegal, period. How can you defend smt like that. 

Real name tickets are norm everywhere and I don't see any problem with that.


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## Silly_Walks

Geography said:


> Why is this a problem? What does CRH care who buys the tickets as long as they are sold? Ticket scalpers exist when the face value of a ticket is lower than the market value of a ticket. It's easy for scalpers to buy low and sell high. If the scalpers misjudge the situation and buy too many tickets, they lose a lot of money. No need for Big Brother to start requiring real name tickets, just float the ticket prices to market value.


Why is it a problem? Because people are paying more for their ticket than they should be... and eventually these people will no longer accept this and in the best case start killing scalpers, in the worst case start rioting.

Scalping is illegal, it's of no benefit to the train travelers or society... i really can not believe you are defending it. Are you part of a scalping family?


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## hmmwv

The Chinese railway network is still large a public service project, ticket scalpers are utterly hated in China because they prey on mostly migrant workers and deprive them the rights of going home at a reasonable price. I think it's absolutely essential to enforce the current practice of pegging tickets with identity, I just hope they make it possible for the ticketing system to accept foreign passport numbers. It shouldn't cause they any significant amount of investment because it's largely a software change.


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## SamuraiBlue

hmmwv said:


> The Chinese railway network is still large a public service project, ticket scalpers are utterly hated in China because they prey on mostly migrant workers and deprive them the rights of going home at a reasonable price. I think it's absolutely essential to enforce the current practice of pegging tickets with identity, I just hope they make it possible for the ticketing system to accept foreign passport numbers. It shouldn't cause they any significant amount of investment because it's largely a software change.


Not to be rude or anything but PRC is still ruled by a communist party which will want to control the flow the public in general.


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## Silver Swordsman

SamuraiBlue said:


> Not to be rude or anything but PRC is still ruled by a communist party which will want to control the flow the public in general.


Yes, they control it by building 10,000 km of new high speed railway lines while, not to be rude or anything, the USA is democratic and they haven't laid a single meter of rail. 

Oh right... the oil companies do the controlling in the US by lobbying Congress NOT to build things. 

(Sorry, I couldn't resist that.  )


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## hmmwv

SamuraiBlue said:


> Not to be rude or anything but PRC is still ruled by a communist party which will want to control the flow the public in general.


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## foxmulder

Silver Swordsman said:


> Yes, they control it by building 10,000 km of new high speed railway lines while, not to be rude or anything, the USA is democratic and they haven't laid a single meter of rail.
> 
> Oh right... the oil companies do the controlling in the US by lobbying Congress NOT to build things.
> 
> (Sorry, I couldn't resist that.  )


Actually, it is planned to reach around 16,000km quite soon.


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## Svartmetall

^^ Paranoid nonsense (regarding weibo accounts). Keep things on topic and leave Chinese politics and tin-foil conspiracies out of this thread please.


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## Geography

> It is totally dimwit to think and write the statement above.
> 
> China MoR should have adopted real-name ticketing system a long, long, long time ago for all class of passenger trains.
> The real-name ticketing system saves tons of resources and headaches for everyone.


Again, I'm waiting for some actual reasoning and not name-calling. How does the real-name ticketing system save resources? Whose resources?

My memory is fuzzy but when I rode Italian trains in 2005, I don't recall them requiring real-name tickets. Instead, passengers bought tickets for certain routes that were valid for several months. Passengers validated their ticket by sticking it in a little machine on the platform before boarding. When the conductor came to check the ticket, they only checked that it was the correct route and had been validated. They never checked my ID.


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## Silver Swordsman

Geography said:


> Again, I'm waiting for some actual reasoning and not name-calling. How does the real-name ticketing system save resources? Whose resources?
> 
> My memory is fuzzy but when I rode Italian trains in 2005, I don't recall them requiring real-name tickets. Instead, passengers bought tickets for certain routes that were valid for several months. Passengers validated their ticket by sticking it in a little machine on the platform before boarding. When the conductor came to check the ticket, they only checked that it was the correct route and had been validated. They never checked my ID.


It seems like you are arguing about convenience... have to check ID, blah blah blah. However, you don't seem to understand that in the greater scheme of things, ticket scalping is generally _inconvenient_. You complain about not being able to pass your ticket to a friend, fine. 

Wait till the scalpers buy thousands of tickets for the holiday trains... then when there are no more seats 'available to purchase' you'll have to go FIND the scalpers on your own, and pay 30-50 times the normal fare. Sounds better to me if you just bought another ticket. 

Also, why the MOR needs to do this and Italian trains don't is because Europe doesn't have that kind of problem. A guy selling a ticket to a friend? No problem. Got a single vendor buying hundreds if not thousands of tickets? No.

Oh, and I honestly think you're quite a hypocrite: you accuse others of simply attacking you and not supplying evidence, yet you clearly ignore what I've stated above. 

*Just get a refund.*


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## phoenixboi08

Won't the fact that they're shifting to online sales ease this? As I'm sure they will expand the time frame within which you can purchase a ticket.

Also, I've been searching for ridership data: peak travel times, destinations, etc (particularly during new years. Send to me that the system is low in efficiency but from the recent developments (real names requirements, internet sales etc), it seems they get it


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## NCT

Real-name ticketing isn't ideal, but in the current situation where demand still outstrips supply it's the lesser evil when the other is ticket touts galore. Also responding to an earlier point Geography made, ticket price regulation actually benefit the poor migrant workers the most, as they have the least flexibility in terms of travel dates. What you don't want is the middle classes going on their holidays and the migrant workers unable to go home. That is not to say though that ticket liberalisation shouldn't happen during normal times, especially on the high-speed lines where parallel green-skins are no longer available.


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## hmmwv

Geography said:


> Again, I'm waiting for some actual reasoning and not name-calling.


You are arguing for the sake of argument, we have given enough reasons but you refuse to accept them, that's your problem and any further argument is simply waste of people's time.


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## particlez

^Safe to say, Geography studied Von Mises, Von Hayek, and Friedman, and he's a fan of the laissez-faire economics of Thatcher, Reagan, and Pinochet? 

These economists and their political adherents stress the importance of equilibrium graphs and models. The theories sound so elegant. Unfortunately they're not supported by empirical evidence. When people point out that the models are detached from reality, these economists and their adherents respond by saying that reality is too complex to be mapped. 

Allowing for the "free market" to sort out the finite numbers of train tickets is akin to letting the free market dictate access to education or water. Sounds good in theory. But in practice it results in various groups getting rich off unearned income, and everyone else paying higher costs and/or having reduced access.

If you think of it, a truly "free market" wouldn't bother building a public transit network. The initial costs are too high to make it truly competitive. 

If you want to hear about libertarianism and its disciples, head over to skyscraperpage now. That site has a lot of libertarian shills/true believers who reflexively see government regulation leading to the road to serfdom. Kinda ironic, as "market democracy" and functioning urbanism don't go together.


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## hkskyline

A volunteer guides passengers to their train at Chengdu Railway Station in Chengdu, capital of southwest China's Sichuan Province, Jan. 7, 2012. Starting from Jan. 8, 2012, China's transport system will undergo a 40-day travel rush, which is characterized by a hightened passenger flow around the time of the oncoming Chinese New Year. (Xinhua/Xue Yubin)


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## Geography

> Wait till the scalpers buy thousands of tickets for the holiday trains... then when there are no more seats 'available to purchase' you'll have to go FIND the scalpers on your own, and pay 30-50 times the normal fare. Sounds better to me if you just bought another ticket.
> 
> Also, why the MOR needs to do this and Italian trains don't is because Europe doesn't have that kind of problem. A guy selling a ticket to a friend? No problem. Got a single vendor buying hundreds if not thousands of tickets? No.


Why are scalpers there in the first place? Because the face value of the ticket is less than the true market value of the ticket. What that means is people are _willing_ to pay more for the ticket but do not have to because the train company subsidizes the price (and thus forgoes additional revenue). Scalpers are simply buying low and selling high.

Scalpers could potentially sell tickets for less than face value. If it's 10 minutes till departure and the scalper has 20 tickets that will be worth $0 in 11 minutes, they will start lowering the price to attract buyers. Knowing this, poorer customers could hang around the station to buy the cheaper tickets. A smart scalper in a monopoly situation will use price discrimination--charging a different price to each customer. A smart scalper would charge a higher price to a customer wearing a suit than one looking like a factory worker.

Those who label me libertarian or anti-public transport are way off base. I love metro systems and support their widespread use in dense urban environments, even when they don't make a profit in-of-themselves because of the positive externalities they generate in 1) taking cars off the road, 2) increasing property values around stations. The second point is so powerful that one of the only metro systems to turn a profit, the Hong Kong MTR, does so by developing the land around stations.

Metros generally have to subsidize tickets in order to attract riders. They also do not sell tickets. Access is controlled by electronic gates and debit cards. There is no desire nor ability for scalpers to inject themselves in the process. The Chinese railway does not have to subsidize tickets to attract riders, the demand is overwhelming. I understand and sympathize the desire to use the railways as a mass transport option for poorer migrants, but subsidizing the price with real-name tickets will not necessarily help them. What is to guarantee poor migrants get the tickets first? It seems more likely that the middle class, with more time on their hands, can go down to the station in the evening and weekends to buy a ticket first, or log onto a computer first (most middle class work in an office whereas most migrants work in a blue collar job).

Keeping the desire to help the migrant poor, an alternative is to let trains charge market value for the ticket, within reason because the government has a monopoly on railway travel and could easily abuse its position. The extra revenue generated by higher ticket prices could be funneled into other social welfare projects, like unemployment insurance, urban schools for the children of migrants, and low cost clinics. In the future, when China has a more advanced tax collection system, they could give a cash grant to all citizens making below a certain income per year. Citizens could then determine what good or service maximizes their utility and spend it how they like. Maybe it's a railway ticket home for New Year, maybe it's a party with friends.


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## chornedsnorkack

Indeed. It is high demand and low price which causes the tickets to sell out. And means that tickets are allocated via queuing, not price.

If China were to raise ticket prices to a high level then naturally trains would go nearly empty, as was complained regarding some deluxe soft sleepers.

But if the tickets were made more expensive to the extent that the trains get say 95% full, then nearly everyone who can now travel still would. They would just pay more.

If charging full market price from the poor immigrants is socially undesirable then there could be more targeted assistance. Like registering the immigrant workers and their homeplaces and giving them subsidized train tickets for holidays, while middle class going to tourist trips could still be charged market fares.

But which are the practical ideas?


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## NCT

Geography - rest assured that the mere fact that the trains will be full of smelly and rowdy countrysiders would keep any middle-class towners well away from the railway. It's a harsh thing to say to both 'classes', but 100% true.


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## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> Geography - rest assured that the mere fact that the trains will be full of smelly and rowdy countrysiders would keep any middle-class towners well away from the railway. It's a harsh thing to say to both 'classes', but 100% true.


Or on the railway and the very same trains BUT in different classes - first class, soft sleeper and that ilk, while the immigrants go to second class, hard sleepers and hard seats.


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## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Or on the railway and the very same trains BUT in different classes - first class, soft sleeper and that ilk, while the immigrants go to second class, hard sleepers and hard seats.


It will not work for the Chinese New Year travel season because the demand still far outpace capacity. They have to run all hard seat trains with every conceivable space taken by people with standing ticket just to get almost everyone home. In past years MOR got desperate enough to bring out relics such as China Star to haul temp trains on certain routes. Plane tickets are high enough, but they are selling out quickly too, have you heard the news about people go through Thailand to Kunming because they couldn't get direct flights between Beijing and Kunming? If the train has mixed classes then it only translates to less capacity, and more people left behind, that's a no no because riots will erupt.

MOR is not a private enterprise, it is a government agency therefore profit is not its first priority, and free market rules should not dictates its pricing regime. For someone suggesting that MOR should earn more profit so it can be funneled to other areas, you do understand this is China we are talking about, right? Different government ministries have to fight for their own budget every FY, and there isn't much incentive for the MOR to get more profit only so it can be given to other agencies, while itself being cursed to death by travelers who can't get a cheap ticket. And this solution will be ten times more complicated, having way more chances of corruption to occur, and takes years to take root in people's mindset. Real name ticketing system is way easier to implement, affect people's travel habit the least, and very convenient for Chinese citizens to use.


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## Mika Montwald

hkskyline said:


> A volunteer guides passengers to their train at Chengdu Railway Station in Chengdu, capital of southwest China's Sichuan Province, Jan. 7, 2012. Starting from Jan. 8, 2012, China's transport system will undergo a 40-day travel rush, which is characterized by a hightened passenger flow around the time of the oncoming Chinese New Year. (Xinhua/Xue Yubin)



Thank you so much *hkskyline* for posting the volunteers photo.

:angel1: :applause: :applause:

Thousands of blessings to the growing volunteering forces across China. 

:bow: :bow: :bow:

Expressing my utmost admiration and gratitude to all China volunteers.


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## hkskyline

Market value and equilibrium simply will not work in the Spring Festival rush. There is too much demand as hundreds of millions of people are on the run to get home for the holidays. If prices were to rise to put supply and demand back at equilibrium, it will mean those hundreds of millions will not be able to travel at all since they will be priced out. Civil unrest will then take over. We saw the mess in Guangzhou a few years back when bad weather forced train cancellations during this busy travel period. There is a need to take care of the migrant poor. Ripping these people off in exchange for other social programs is not going to work, and is not a viable solution when these same people will be out with their sticks and forks taking down the politicians who are behind these sorts of schemes.

The whole purpose of the ID system is to prevent scalpers from taking advantage of this demand blip and trying to make the whole process as fair as possible to everyone. That way, at least those who are in line at the station trying to get a ticket will feel comfort they may actually have a chance rather than to try to find a scalper to rip them off.


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## phoenixboi08

Could it have anything to do with the airlines? 
I mean, normally, you'd expect the airline industry to directly compete with the railways (each trying to underwrite the other's costs) THAT is what will stabilize (if we're talking about market forces) the ticket prices in the trains...and will force the costs of air travel. 

But if both are run by the State, there's no incentive to compete to that degree? 

*just thinking out loud here...


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## Geography

> MOR is not a private enterprise, it is a government agency therefore profit is not its first priority, and free market rules should not dictates its pricing regime. For someone suggesting that MOR should earn more profit so it can be funneled to other areas, you do understand this is China we are talking about, right? Different government ministries have to fight for their own budget every FY, and there isn't much incentive for the MOR to get more profit only so it can be given to other agencies, while itself being cursed to death by travelers who can't get a cheap ticket. And this solution will be ten times more complicated, having way more chances of corruption to occur, and takes years to take root in people's mindset. Real name ticketing system is way easier to implement, affect people's travel habit the least, and very convenient for Chinese citizens to use.





> Market value and equilibrium simply will not work in the Spring Festival rush. There is too much demand as hundreds of millions of people are on the run to get home for the holidays. If prices were to rise to put supply and demand back at equilibrium, it will mean those hundreds of millions will not be able to travel at all since they will be priced out. Civil unrest will then take over. We saw the mess in Guangzhou a few years back when bad weather forced train cancellations during this busy travel period. There is a need to take care of the migrant poor. Ripping these people off in exchange for other social programs is not going to work, and is not a viable solution when these same people will be out with their sticks and forks taking down the politicians who are behind these sorts of schemes.
> 
> The whole purpose of the ID system is to prevent scalpers from taking advantage of this demand blip and trying to make the whole process as fair as possible to everyone. That way, at least those who are in line at the station trying to get a ticket will feel comfort they may actually have a chance rather than to try to find a scalper to rip them off.


Good points. Lunar New Year represents a classic demand shock, a sudden huge increase in demand that cannot be met with a similar increase in supply, despite the predictability of demand. It would be a huge waste of money to build enough railway capacity to satisfy all the Lunar New Year travel demand for a couple weeks, then have that capacity sit idle the other 50 weeks of the year. As a result, it is inevitable some people cannot travel during the New Year holidays. 

I sympathize with the government's desire to favor the migrant poor who have less freedom in terms of travel dates than the middle class. NCT makes an interesting point that if the government can keep the price low enough, the presence of masses of lower-class workers will deter anyone of higher income from trying to take advantage of the cheap tickets. It's like when football stadiums in America sell standing-room only tickets to students, knowing the existence of such tickets will not cannibalize sales of normal tickets because they are different market segments: bottom market and more up-market.

If turning a profit is not a concern of the Ministry of Railroards, then why not set the cheapest tickets during Lunar New Year to zero? What is the rationale for any kind of pricing at the MoR if not to maximize revenue? Metros and bus systems set prices to maximize ridership given the budget constraints of a certain amount of subsidy each other. Does the MoR have a similar policy?


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## urbanfan89

phoenixboi08 said:


> Could it have anything to do with the airlines?
> I mean, normally, you'd expect the airline industry to directly compete with the railways (each trying to underwrite the other's costs) THAT is what will stabilize (if we're talking about market forces) the ticket prices in the trains...and will force the costs of air travel.
> 
> But if both are run by the State, there's no incentive to compete to that degree?
> 
> *just thinking out loud here...


Chunyun will involve three billion trips. Of these, less than 50 million trips will be by air. The airline industry can do nothing about railway congestion. We have to remember the sheer size and price-consciousness of ordinary people.



Geography said:


> Good points. Lunar New Year represents a classic demand shock, a sudden huge increase in demand that cannot be met with a similar increase in supply, despite the predictability of demand. It would be a huge waste of money to build enough railway capacity to satisfy all the Lunar New Year travel demand for a couple weeks, then have that capacity sit idle the other 50 weeks of the year. As a result, it is inevitable some people cannot travel during the New Year holidays.
> 
> I sympathize with the government's desire to favor the migrant poor who have less freedom in terms of travel dates than the middle class. NCT makes an interesting point that if the government can keep the price low enough, the presence of masses of lower-class workers will deter anyone of higher income from trying to take advantage of the cheap tickets. It's like when football stadiums in America sell standing-room only tickets to students, knowing the existence of such tickets will not cannibalize sales of normal tickets because they are different market segments: bottom market and more up-market.
> 
> If turning a profit is not a concern of the Ministry of Railroards, then why not set the cheapest tickets during Lunar New Year to zero? What is the rationale for any kind of pricing at the MoR if not to maximize revenue? Metros and bus systems set prices to maximize ridership given the budget constraints of a certain amount of subsidy each other. Does the MoR have a similar policy?


1) The government simply cannot tell some people not to go home over the Lunar New Year. It will be like western governments telling their people they can't go home for Christmas. They could encourage employers to stage vacation time, but demand will still be colossal.

2) Even outside the Chunyun period, regular trains are packed to standing room even on overnight trips. During Chunyun the carriages are stuffed until they're literally like sardine cans. Demand is so inelastic that it doesn't matter what price migrant workers pay either to the scalper or the ticket office, so setting the price to zero is not logical.

3) The wealthy will either travel by air or by high speed rail. Unless they were dumb enough not to plan in advance they simply won't travel by regular rail.


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## particlez

Geography, if you're not libertarian and you are FOR subsidized intracity public transit, why are you so against train tickets being sold at a discounted rate? It doesn't make you a libertarian or a socialist, it just makes your editorial inconsistent. As others have noted, the MOR is a public utility with a mandate to provide service. The railroad system is a natural monopoly and provides a necessary service. Thus it should not be allowed to maximize profit like some Lady GaGa concert or lemonade stand. 

The classical economists cited subsidized infrastructure, education, medicine, etc. as a fourth factor of production. The government was to provide these services (at a loss) because it served in the best interests of society as a whole.

The solution to this problem is capacity expansion (kills the "they're building way too much" responses.) Extracting maximum return in a bid to weed out the poorer passengers will only make sense to the Von Hayek/Von Mises/Friedman crowd. 




> Keep things on topic and leave Chinese politics and tin-foil conspiracies out of this thread please.


Sorry Svartmetall, but it's hard to read the english-language media in "market democracies" and not see unending articles about the Chinese railway spending and the inevitable financial collapse. Unfortunately the Von Hayek inspired theory dominates academia and financial media. It's all about praising equilibrium and privatization to ward off the "road to serfdom." They've lauded privatizing schools, medicine (sometimes), transport, the urban planning process in general. I glanced through the latest edition of the Economist today. Surprise surprise it had yet another article on the problems of the Chinese railways. 

The Economist won't influence economic policy in China. It does however, influence the mindsets of its readers. I won't go into conspiracies, but as a fan of urban development, you can see how profit-maximization (promoted by some coopted econ profs and the coopted media) has a nefarious influence on urban development.


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## hmmwv

Beijing South readies hot standby train. 
http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2012-01-17/163023815242.shtml

Beijing South has a CRH380AL on standby at platform 1 constantly powered and manned to replace any trains that may have problems on the Beijing-Shanghai line. Two shifts of rotating crew have a 15 minute on call mandate to start service.


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## phoenixboi08

urbanfan89 said:


> Chunyun will involve three billion trips. Of these, less than 50 million trips will be by air. The airline industry can do nothing about railway congestion. We have to remember the sheer size and price-consciousness of ordinary people.


Yes, but if air was more attractive, wouldn't it drive down the price of tickets? 
I'm not necessarily talking about capacity if the airlines, but rather the direct competition they'd have with the railways if they were privatized. Wouldn't that be a plus? 

Also, I'm guessing there is a reason why they don't use double decker trains? I understand why that is obviously so for HSR, but what about the regular trains?


----------



## urbanfan89

phoenixboi08 said:


> Yes, but if air was more attractive, wouldn't it drive down the price of tickets?
> I'm not necessarily talking about capacity if the airlines, but rather the direct competition they'd have with the railways if they were privatized. Wouldn't that be a plus?
> 
> Also, I'm guessing there is a reason why they don't use double decker trains? I understand why that is obviously so for HSR, but what about the regular trains?


China's airline industry is still state-dominated and regulated, so they're not as free as US or European counterparts to wage price wars. In any case the military controls a greater proportion of airspace than in most other major countries, causing serious congestion on available civilian corridors. So until Chinese airlines are deregulated and free to wage price wars, and the military is strong-armed to give up their turf, there will be no Southwests or RyanAirs. And there are many double decker trains in China:


----------



## hmmwv

phoenixboi08 said:


> Also, I'm guessing there is a reason why they don't use double decker trains? I understand why that is obviously so for HSR, but what about the regular trains?


China railway uses double decker trains extensively, I'll post some more complete information in the double decker train thread, stay tuned.


----------



## phoenixboi08

hmmwv said:


> China railway uses double decker trains extensively, I'll post some more complete information in the double decker train thread, stay tuned.


Okay, I didn't know for sure...I just never saw any. And I asked my friend, and he didn't even know they existed.



urbanfan89 said:


> China's airline industry is still state-dominated and regulated, so they're not as free as US or European counterparts to wage price wars. In any case the military controls a greater proportion of airspace than in most other major countries, causing serious congestion on available civilian corridors. So until Chinese airlines are deregulated and free to wage price wars, and the military is strong-armed to give up their turf, there will be no Southwests or RyanAirs. And there are many double decker trains in China:


Yeah, that makes sense.


----------



## Geography

> Geography, if you're not libertarian and you are FOR subsidized intracity public transit, why are you so against train tickets being sold at a discounted rate? It doesn't make you a libertarian or a socialist, it just makes your editorial inconsistent. As others have noted, the MOR is a public utility with a mandate to provide service. The railroad system is a natural monopoly and provides a necessary service. Thus it should not be allowed to maximize profit like some Lady GaGa concert or lemonade stand.


Good points. The difference between subsidized bus or metro tickets and subsidized railway tickets is that with the former, ticket prices are subsidized to encourage ridership. With the latter, subsidized ticket prices during Lunar New Year come amidst moon-high demand. This attracts a huge crush of people who cannot all get tickets, leading to the frustration and stress seen in so many railway stations across the country.

We agree that the supply of passenger rail transport in China during Lunar New Year is very inelastic because of the high capital requirements in adding capacity that would be wasted the rest of the year. It's also true that the railroads have a natural monopoly, but only on railroads which is merely one mode of transport. Why can't people take buses? There are innumerable bus lines in China that, if the price rose from additional demand, could add capacity easier than the railway system.

Many posters are forgetting the usefulness in pricing in a market economy. Higher prices are signals to businesses where to add capacity. Higher prices encourage frugality on the demand side and additional investment on the supply side. The absence of those pricing signals can cause major problems. Higher railway ticket prices might not result in high railway capacity during Lunar New Year, but it would attract more private investment in buses and cheap airlines.


----------



## phoenixboi08

Geography said:


> The absence of those pricing signals can cause major problems. Higher railway ticket prices might not result in high railway capacity during Lunar New Year, but it would attract more private investment in buses and cheap airlines.


Thank you for answering my question ^_^


----------



## NCT

Geography said:


> Good points. The difference between subsidized bus or metro tickets and subsidized railway tickets is that with the former, ticket prices are subsidized to encourage ridership. With the latter, subsidized ticket prices during Lunar New Year come amidst moon-high demand. This attracts a huge crush of people who cannot all get tickets, leading to the frustration and stress seen in so many railway stations across the country.
> 
> We agree that the supply of passenger rail transport in China during Lunar New Year is very inelastic because of the high capital requirements in adding capacity that would be wasted the rest of the year. It's also true that the railroads have a natural monopoly, but only on railroads which is merely one mode of transport. Why can't people take buses? There are innumerable bus lines in China that, if the price rose from additional demand, could add capacity easier than the railway system.
> 
> Many posters are forgetting the usefulness in pricing in a market economy. Higher prices are signals to businesses where to add capacity. *Higher prices encourage frugality on the demand side and additional investment on the supply side.* The absence of those pricing signals can cause major problems. Higher railway ticket prices might not result in high railway capacity during Lunar New Year, but it would attract more private investment in buses and cheap airlines.


What do you think the MOR has been doing in the past few years? Even as an ardent critic of the MOR I have to jump to their defence this time.

I do think though that during the peak-demand period more standing tickets should be sold on the high-speed lines. There probably are some safety concerns but crush-loaded high-speed trains are not unheard of. In the old days the railway was completely classless.


----------



## hmmwv

Geography said:


> We agree that the supply of passenger rail transport in China during Lunar New Year is very inelastic because of the high capital requirements in adding capacity that would be wasted the rest of the year. It's also true that the railroads have a natural monopoly, but only on railroads which is merely one mode of transport. Why can't people take buses? There are innumerable bus lines in China that, if the price rose from additional demand, could add capacity easier than the railway system.
> 
> Many posters are forgetting the usefulness in pricing in a market economy. Higher prices are signals to businesses where to add capacity. Higher prices encourage frugality on the demand side and additional investment on the supply side. The absence of those pricing signals can cause major problems. Higher railway ticket prices might not result in high railway capacity during Lunar New Year, but it would attract more private investment in buses and cheap airlines.


Long distance bus services are pushed to the limit during Chinese New Year as well, several provinces even cancelled expressway tolls to get traffic move quickly through toll gates. Airline tickets are selling out quickly too and price are skyrocketing, yet airlines cannot simply buy more planes in anticipation of the travel rush because once the peak has passed they will end up with lots of expensive idling asset. Competition in the Chinese airline industry is fierce during regular seasons because supply still outpace demand, that's why we don't see many LCCs there since they can't compete with large airlines which routinely sell tickets at 50-70% off prices.


----------



## phoenixboi08

I've been searching and searching for data on "migration/" travel patterns during Chunyun, but have come across nothing. 

I'm wondering if there's a large bottle neck; a vast amount of people located in one general area (east coast for example) travelling towards another general area (central region). I'm not assuming it's this way, just wondering. 

This is fun to think about, just goes to show what it could be like being responsible for such a thing...


----------



## NCT

^^ I don't think you are far off. A lot of manual workers in east coast cities do come from the inner areas to the west.


----------



## phoenixboi08

NCT said:


> ^^ I don't think you are far off. A lot of manual workers in east coast cities do come from the inner areas to the west.


Right, but what I don't know is if it's really these people moving from the large cities to the interior that is really at the root of the problem....but if it is, it's short term, right? Because the population is going to spread more evenly in the future....


----------



## hmmwv

Chunyun is an annual thing, kinda like the Thanksgiving travel season in the US, except 50 times larger. This year they anticipate 3.18 billion journeys will be made during the period.
More info can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunyun




phoenixboi08 said:


> Okay, I didn't know for sure...I just never saw any. And I asked my friend, and he didn't even know they existed.


The info has been added to the double decker thread.


----------



## Geography

Real name tickets affect passengers throughout the year, not just Lunar New Year. The debate over ticket prices in general morphed into a debate over ticket prices during Lunar New Year when unique circumstances are in effect: overwhelming demand, especially from poor migrant workers who cannot travel any other time.

But what about the rest of the year, when social stability from millions of migrants going home is not at stake? Should the railways raise ticket prices to maximize revenue?


----------



## phoenixboi08

Geography said:


> Real name tickets affect passengers throughout the year, not just Lunar New Year. The debate over ticket prices in general morphed into a debate over ticket prices during Lunar New Year when unique circumstances are in effect: overwhelming demand, especially from poor migrant workers who cannot travel any other time.
> 
> But what about the rest of the year, when social stability from millions of migrants going home is not at stake? Should the railways raise ticket prices to maximize revenue?


Well, the prices for HSR are already pretty high (compared to the regular trains) because of the whole thing about freight offsetting the costs of the latter, while the MOR is assuming all costs in the former, right? So, I think the problem is that consumer preference still lies with the slower trains, not yet with the HSR ? Does that make any sense?


----------



## stoneybee

Geography said:


> Real name tickets affect passengers throughout the year, not just Lunar New Year. The debate over ticket prices in general morphed into a debate over ticket prices during Lunar New Year when unique circumstances are in effect: overwhelming demand, especially from poor migrant workers who cannot travel any other time.
> 
> But what about the rest of the year, when social stability from millions of migrants going home is not at stake? Should the railways raise ticket prices to maximize revenue?


Yes, they can certainly raise the price on train tickets to maximize revenue. In fact, they have been doing that on all train services, particularly on HSR service. However, there is a limit to how high the price can be raised, as the affordability aspect starts to impact the equation. I am sure you can find information readily available on the web regarding complaints about the high price of train tickets.

Additionally, we need to understand and remember that public transportation is by and large a public good. As a result, it can seldomly be governed only by a single micro-economic model of supply and demand with price being the lever. Like other utility services, railway services also tends to have natural monopoly characteristics because of their huge capital requirement and long lead time on capacity buildup where short term supply is more or less fixed while demand can swing a great deal. So you have to come up with other non-economical way to help solve or control the problem.


----------



## stoneybee

phoenixboi08 said:


> Well, the prices for HSR are already pretty high (compared to the regular trains) because of the whole thing about freight offsetting the costs of the latter, while the MOR is assuming all costs in the former, right? So, I think the problem is that consumer preference still lies with the slower trains, not yet with the HSR ? Does that make any sense?


Not quite sure what you mean here. Are you saying that revenue from passenger services is being used to subsidies freight transport? or the other way around.

Additionally, I don't think the fundamental issue is consumer prefers slower trains than HSR. True, there was a big price shock in the systerm when HSR service were being introduced at first, but I think the public is getting over that by now (by the way, my personal opinion and only my personal opinion is that the media has way overplayed the price issue. The price of a HSR ticket is really not that high in comparison to everything else these days).

The fundamental problem is that the transportation capacity of the Chinese railway is still way behind the demand, period.


----------



## hmmwv

I believe freight revenue is actually subsiding the passenger service, freight cost in China is higher than the US IIRC. But there is a discussion that should be reserved for the China Railway thread instead of the HSR thread.


----------



## stoneybee

hmmwv said:


> I believe freight revenue is actually subsiding the passenger service, freight cost in China is higher than the US IIRC. But there is a discussion that should be reserved for the China Railway thread instead of the HSR thread.


Agreed, my understanding is also that freight transport is subsiding the passenger service in China.


----------



## phoenixboi08

hmmwv said:


> I believe freight revenue is actually subsiding the passenger service, freight cost in China is higher than the US IIRC. But there is a discussion that should be reserved for the China Railway thread instead of the HSR thread.


I think it is highly relevant...if we're discussing the pricing of HSR...Both are operated by MOR and the fact that they can subsidize the trains that use the same track as the freight but can't for HSR is an important thing to know.


----------



## hmmwv

phoenixboi08 said:


> I think it is highly relevant...if we're discussing the pricing of HSR...Both are operated by MOR and the fact that they can subsidize the trains that use the same track as the freight but can't for HSR is an important thing to know.


Well, we are discussing China's railway price in general, not just HSR. Also under MOR freight revenue subside all passenger services, conventional and HSR, and mistresses....


----------



## HunanChina

Wuhan Railway station.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzQ4NDEyNDM2.html


----------



## HunanChina

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzQ3MzEzODA0.html


----------



## HunanChina

CRH380A VS 25G

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzQ4MTIwNjUy.html


----------



## big-dog

China's high-speed rail to surpass 10,000 km

Updated: 2012-02-16 10:59

(chinadaily.com.cn)



> China will construct 6,366 kilometers of new railways in 2012, including 3,500 kilometers of high-speed lines, People's Daily reported on Thursday.
> 
> The year 2012 will be a historic year in China's railway history with the highest number of new lines scheduled to be constructed. Meanwhile, high-speed railway lines will surpass 10,000 kilometers.
> 
> Once the new high-speed line is put into service, the travel time from Beijing to Shenzhen in South China's Guandong province will be reduced to eight hours from the current fastest time of 23 hours.
> 
> Confronted with such a massive construction project, the railway ministry expressed its determination to guarantee the construction quality, saying they will solve any hidden quality issues before operation.
> 
> The railway ministry has also launched an overhaul over all projects under construction started since 2003.


source


----------



## Silver Swordsman

^ U mad, America? 

Still, I must ask: what happened to the budget cuts to the MOR? And how has the debt been managed?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> China's high-speed rail to surpass 10,000 km
> 
> Updated: 2012-02-16 10:59
> 
> (chinadaily.com.cn)
> 
> 
> 
> source


3500 km high-speed lines.

Which ones?
Dalian-Shenyang-Harbin, July, 904 km
Beijing-Shijiazhuang, late 2012, 281 km
Wuhan-Zhengzhou-Shijiazhuang, July, 840 km
Nanjing-Hangzhou, late 2012, 249 km
Hangzhou-Ningbo, June, 152 km
Wuhan-Yichang, June, 293 km
Hefei-Bengbu, August, 131 km.

That accounts for 2850 km.

What are the other 650 km?

Wuhan-Xianning?
Wuhan-Huangshi?
Xian-Baoji?
Panjing-Yingkou-Haicheng?
Chongqing-Lichuan?
Chongqing-Suining?
Nanjing-Anqing?
Beijing-Tangshan?
Tianjin-Baoding?
Qingdao-Rongcheng?
Jingyao-Chengdu-Leshan?


----------



## SimFox

BarbaricManchurian said:


> MOR can build the tunnel between Tianjin West and Tianjin stations in a few years, but the Tianjin metro expansion, originally promised for 2007, shows no signs of nearing completion. Sigh, why can't the more useful projects get done faster...





UD2 said:


> Central Government vs City Hall. Central Government wins everytime.


Situation with metro expansion in Tianjin is a disgrace!


----------



## FM 2258

SimFox said:


> Situation with metro expansion in Tianjin is a disgrace!


I know this is for a different thread but doesn't the Tianjin metro only have 2 lines? I was surprised to see that when I saw a map since Tianjin is such a huge city and a port city at that.



yaohua2000 said:


> With this tunnel, a train from Jinan and Shanghai can go to Qinhuangdao and Shenyang directly, skip Beijing.


Having to go through Beijing seems like a long way out of the way to get to Qinhuangdao and Shenyang. I wonder if the Tianjin-Qinhuangdao line will be open to match this tunnel opening.


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> I know this is for a different thread but doesn't the Tianjin metro only have 2 lines? I was surprised to see that when I saw a map since Tianjin is such a huge city and a port city at that.
> 
> 
> 
> Having to go through Beijing seems like a long way out of the way to get to Qinhuangdao and Shenyang. I wonder if the Tianjin-Qinhuangdao line will be open to match this tunnel opening.


This


hmmwv said:


> Tianjin-Qinhuangdao PDL is still under suspension due to violation of environmental regulations.


----------



## ANR

*Railway construction getting back on track*

_Perhaps a bit more information on future plans:_

Last Updated: 2012-02-17
Source: China Daily

Projects halted due to funding shortage will resume this year. With 3,500 kilometers of new high-speed railways expected to be put into use this year, the length of China's high-speed railways will exceed 10,000 kilometers, a senior railway official said. Insiders said the construction of high-speed railways, which was halted due to funding shortage, will resume this year.

Yang Zhongmin, director of the planning department of the Ministry of Railways, said that all four of the planned North-South rail arteries for China's high-speed rail system will be complete, according to People's Daily on Thursday. One of the four arteries, the Beijing-Shanghai line, opened in June. The others will connect Beijing and Guangzhou in South China, Beijing and Harbin in Northeast China, and cities on the southeast coast with high-speed railways. Though a section of rail between Xiamen and Shenzhen will not be finished this year, the four arteries will start operation and significantly cut travel time between major cities, Yang said. For instance, train travel from Beijing to Shenzhen will take eight hours instead of the current 24 hours, and trips from Beijing to Harbin will take only five hours instead of nine.

China's high-speed rail sector was hampered by a funding shortage last year, when money from the government's 4 trillion yuan ($635 billion) stimulus plan dried up and the government's tightened monetary policy, after which the ministry was unable to get bank loans. More than 10,000 kilometers of high-speed railway projects were halted. Wang Mengshu, a leading rail tunnel expert, said on Thursday that railway construction is expected to resume this year. Wang, deputy chief engineer at China Railway Tunnel Group, told China Daily, citing a recent railway working conference, that the work on 6,000 kilometers of halted railway projects will resume this year and funds will be allocated gradually. "The ministry will also begin nine new railway projects this year, but none of them are high-speed railways," he said. 

An article posted on Feb 8 on the website of the Chongqing development and reform commission, a branch of China's top economic planner, supports Wang's statement. According to the article, Lu Dongfu, deputy minister of railways, said at a meeting on Dec 30 that the ministry plans to spend 406 billion yuan on 249 infrastructure projects this year. The money will be used to complete 63 rail projects, continue work on 177 others and begin nine new ones. Besides, the ministry would like to begin 53 other projects this year.

But Yang Hao, a railway professor at Beijing Jiaotong University, said that the 53 projects would need the approval of the National Development and Reform Commission before ground could be broken on them. The ministry has stressed that the plan for infrastructure spending is "subject to changes", and experts believe that funding is the crucial factor that could determine whether the full plan is carried out.

Zhao Jian, another railway professor at Beijing Jiaotong University, said it remains unclear how the ministry will pull together 400 billion yuan because it has clear access to only 80 billion yuan from the railway construction fund and other sources. "And even the 80 billion yuan is not enough to pay off the interest generated by the 2 trillion yuan debt the ministry owes," he said.
China has planned to build a railway network of 120,000 kilometers by 2015, including at least 16,000 kilometers of high-speed railways.


----------



## big-dog

^^ good chart. By the end of 2012, the backbone of eastern/central China HSR will be completed (except Shenzhen-Xiamen section). Hope western China HSR s (esp Shanghai-Chongqing) could keep up with the construction speed.


----------



## big-dog

HSR running in the snow

Jan 10 2012 from railway ministry web site










source


----------



## foxmulder

ANR said:


>



I am so going to travel on this loop


----------



## hmmwv

It's interesting that they mentioned none of the nine new projects will be HSR, but Hainan West Ring was approved by NDRC last year already and can start any time.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

ANR said:


>


What is the current condition of the Beijing-Shenyang line depicted?


----------



## Silly_Walks

big-dog said:


> ^^ good chart. By the end of 2012, the backbone of eastern/central China HSR will be completed (except Shenzhen-Xiamen section). Hope western China HSR s (esp Shanghai-Chongqing) could keep up with the construction speed.


Is it true Shanghai-Chongqing will not be 300 or 350 km/h design speed?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Silly_Walks said:


> Is it true Shanghai-Chongqing will not be 300 or 350 km/h design speed?


That is true:
Nanjing-Hefei, open since April 2008, design speed 250 km/h
Hefei-Wuhan, open since April 2009, design speed 250 km/h
Wuhan-Yichang, not completed
Yichang-Lichuan-Wanzhou, open since December 2010, design speed 200 km/h
Lichuan-Chongqing, not completed
Chongqing-Suining, not completed
Dezhou-Suining-Chengdu, open since June 2009, design speed 200 km/h.

When shall Lichuan-Chongqing railway be opened?


----------



## urbanfan89

chornedsnorkack said:


> What is the current condition of the Beijing-Shenyang line depicted?


The direct Beijing-Chengde-Shenyang line is "suspended pending further study".

HSR now exists on Beijing-Tianjin and Qinhuangdao-Shenyang. Tianjin-Qinhuangdao is under construction, though earlier it was "suspended" for environmental reasons.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Shall high speed railways Wuhan-Zhengzhou and Zhengzhou-Shijiazhuang be opened together or separately?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Shall high speed railways Wuhan-Zhengzhou and Zhengzhou-Shijiazhuang be opened together or separately?


Zhengzhou-Wuhan section will start trial next month, opening is set at July 1st. Zhengzhou-Shijiazhuang section will open by the end of the month.
http://roll.sohu.com/20120219/n335160769.shtml


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Hangzhou-Ningbo*

Is Hangzhou-Ningbo high speed railway currently on schedule to open in June?


----------



## big-dog

per local news (Feb 11 2012), the construction will most likely start by the end of this year and finish by 2014. The direct link, designed with speed of 350km/h and 16 stations, only takes 2 hours 18 minute to complete the trip from Beijing to Shenyang.



urbanfan89 said:


> Originally Posted by *chornedsnorkack *
> What is the current condition of the Beijing-Shenyang line depicted?
> 
> 
> 
> The direct Beijing-Chengde-Shenyang line is "suspended pending further study".
> 
> HSR now exists on Beijing-Tianjin and Qinhuangdao-Shenyang. Tianjin-Qinhuangdao is under construction, though earlier it was "suspended" for environmental reasons.
Click to expand...


----------



## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is Hangzhou-Ningbo high speed railway currently on schedule to open in June?


No it isn't. The Hangzhou-Ningbo 350km/h high speed will start the trial run in August and open by the end of 2012.

Source


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> per local news (Feb 11 2012), the construction will most likely start by the end of this year and finish by 2014. The direct link, designed with speed of 350km/h and 16 stations, only takes 2 hours 18 minute to complete the trip from Beijing to Shenyang.


For clarification, what are the best trip times Beijing-Shenyang:
- now (slow speed railway Beijing-Qinhuangdao, then 250 km/h line at 200 km/h Qinhuangdao-Shenyang)?
- after completion of Tianjing-Qinhuangdao high speed railway (350 km/h line at 300 km/h Beijing-Tianjin-Qinhuangdao, then 250 km/h line at 200 km/h Qinhuangdao-Shenyang)?
- after completion of Beijing-Chengde-Shenyang high speed railway (350 km/h line at 300 km/h all the way)?


----------



## big-dog

^^ I believe the last bullet uses the least time:

16 stations: Beijing - Xinghuo - Shunyi West - Huairou South - Miyun East - Xinglong West - Chengde South - Pingquan North - Niulianghe - Kazuo - Chaoyang North - Beipiao East - Fuxin North - Heishan North - Xinmin North - Shenyang
(北京站、星火站、顺义西、怀柔南、密云东、兴隆西、承德南、平泉北、牛河梁、喀左、朝阳北、北票东、阜新北、黑山北、新民北、沈阳站)

Shenyang subway will connect with Xinmin railway station after complpetion.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Then is Wuhan-Yichang high speed railway on schedule to open in June 2012?
And when shall Lichuan-Chongqing railway open?


----------



## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> Then is Wuhan-Yichang high speed railway on schedule to open in June 2012?
> And when shall Lichuan-Chongqing railway open?


Wuhan-Yichang HSR is scheduled to open in May. source

Lichuan-Chongqing HSR is to open by the end of 2012.
source


----------



## hkskyline

By *如水心境* from a Chinese photography forum :


----------



## big-dog

*Hangzhou-Ningbo HSR to test run in August and open by the end of the year*










The track laying has been completed on Ningbo side. Test run is scheduled in August.

Length: 149.8km
Speed: 350km/h
Travel time: half hour
7 stations

source


----------



## big-dog

An example of HSR boosting domestic economy



big-dog said:


> *Suzhou HSR new city project*
> 
> Commencement: Jan 11 2012, to build a new city around the new high-speed railway station
> Location: around new Suzhou North Railway Station (on Beijing-Shanghai HSR), Suzhou, Jiangsu Province
> Long term planning area: 28.52 square kms
> Start-up area: 4.7 square kms
> 
> Currently U/C project:
> 
> Long distance bus station (finished)
> Subway Line 2 terminus
> Bus/taxi parking, station front plaza/greenery
> 7 new roads (6.8km, 70% completed)
> A 5-star hotel south of rail station (T/O)
> Office buildings: Taikai, Gaorong, Jiangnan (below pics)
> 
> Taikai Building
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gaorong Building
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jiangnan Building
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> source


----------



## big-dog

*Harbin-Dalian HSR opens on July 15th, Shenyang North and Shenyang Station new waiting hall will open together*

Harbin-Dalian HSR (904km, 350km/h)










brand new Shenyang North Station 

23,000 square meters waiting hall










Shenyang Station's new waiting room (on the right)










source


----------



## hhouse

big-dog said:


> *Harbin-Dalian HSR opens on July 15th, Shenyang North and Shenyang Station new waiting hall will open together*


Why they can't open it 5 days earlier? ;(

Such a pity for me .


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> An example of HSR boosting domestic economy


Which HSR stations exist in Suzhou?
On Shanghai-Beijing high speed railway Suzhou North
On Shanghai-Beijing and Shanghai-Nanjing high speed railways Kunshan South
On Shanghai-Nanjing high speed railway
Huaqiao
Yangsheng Lake
Weiting West
Suzhou Industrial Park
Suzhou
Suzhou New Area.
Is Wangting East railway station in Suzhou or in Wuxi?


----------



## hmmwv

big-dog said:


> Shenyang Station's new waiting room (on the right)


This reminds of Shanghai Station, which is getting old quick and badly needs a renovation to bring it up to other HSR station standard, it's completely filthy compare to Hongqiao.


----------



## yaohua2000

*A video travelogue Shanghai to Beijing*


----------



## Pansori

^^
This is very interesting. Thanks for posting this.


----------



## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> Which HSR stations exist in Suzhou?
> On Shanghai-Beijing high speed railway Suzhou North
> On Shanghai-Beijing and Shanghai-Nanjing high speed railways Kunshan South
> On Shanghai-Nanjing high speed railway
> Huaqiao
> Yangsheng Lake
> Weiting West
> Suzhou Industrial Park
> Suzhou
> Suzhou New Area.
> Is Wangting East railway station in Suzhou or in Wuxi?


Suzhou has 4 HSR stations:

Suzhou Station
Suzhou North Station
Suzhou New Area Station
Suzhou Industrial Park Station

The other HSR stations, such as Kunshan and Wangting East, though located in Greater Suzhou Area, are normally not considered as Suzhou city's railway stations.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> The other HSR stations, such as Kunshan and Wangting East, though located in Great Suzhou Area, are normally not considered as Suzhou city's railway stations.


Kunshan South, Huaqiao, Yangshen Lake and Weiting West are in Kunshan, right?

Which county level city is Wangting East station located in? Changshu?

In which year shall Suzhou Subway Line 2 be opened as far as Suzhou North station?


----------



## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> Kunshan South, Huaqiao, Yangshen Lake and Weiting West are in Kunshan, right?
> 
> Which county level city is Wangting East station located in? Changshu?
> 
> In which year shall Suzhou Subway Line 2 be opened as far as Suzhou North station?


Kunshan South, Huaqiao, Yangshen Lake stations are located in Kunshan. Weiting West is located between Kunshen and Suzhou, Wangting East is located between Suzhou and Wuxi. But all above towns are considered within Greater Suzhou area, not other cities like Wuxi and Changshu.

Suzhou subway line 2 will open by June 2014.

Hope that answers all your questions around Suzhou


----------



## big-dog

Shenzhen north railway station (opened in 2011)


















































































by 四月天@深圳, xinhuanet forum


----------



## Woonsocket54

when is Hangzhou-Nanjing HSR opening?


----------



## foxmulder

Nice updates, guys, thanks.


----------



## big-dog

Woonsocket54 said:


> when is Hangzhou-Nanjing HSR opening?


Hangzhou-Nanjing HSR will open in October this year.

source


----------



## phoenixboi08

This might be irrelevant, but is there any plan to build a bridge\tunnel between shandong and dalian? That seems like such a round-a-bout way to travel...


----------



## hkskyline

phoenixboi08 said:


> This might be irrelevant, but is there any plan to build a bridge\tunnel between shandong and dalian? That seems like such a round-a-bout way to travel...


It's a huge distance of about 100km! I doubt it's feasible to build such a long bridge.


----------



## loefet

^^ Apparently it's in the works, a 106 km long tunnel under the Bohai Strait. It was announced in February 2011. Just search for "bohai strait tunnel" and see for yourself...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Thus the next high speed railways to open are as follows:
Unspecified day of May - Wuhan-Xianning
Unspecified day of May - Yuhan-Yichang
1st of July - Wuhan-Zhengzhou
15th of July - Dalian-Shenyang-Harbin
Unspecified day near the end of July - Zhengzhou-Shijiazhuang
Are all correct that far?


----------



## HunanChina

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzU1ODUyNjky.html


----------



## Silver Swordsman

^WOW!


----------



## phoenixboi08

loefet said:


> ^^ Apparently it's in the works, a 106 km long tunnel under the Bohai Strait. It was announced in February 2011. Just search for "bohai strait tunnel" and see for yourself...


That's what I figured. I mean, its kind of necessary. I assumed if it struck me just from looking at the map, they must have also already figured it out. lol

I guess it'd be to expensive to put train tracks inside?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

phoenixboi08 said:


> That'd what I figured. I mean, its kind of necessary. but I guess it'd be to expensive to put train tracks inside


Quite long indeed, and the roundabout way exists.

Qiongzhou Strait is rather narrower, at around 30 km, and has no way around.

What is the current state of progress for any fixed crossing, whether tunnel or bridge, to connect Hainan Province with Zhanjiang prefecture level city?


----------



## foxmulder

HunanChina said:


> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzU1ODUyNjky.html


cool vid


----------



## napoleon

Sino-Thai high-speed rail link put on hold for now

THE NATION February 25, 2012 1:00 am

Plan calls for joint study; Chinese official told Chiang Mai/Bangkok line a priority

Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra’s government for now has derailed a plan to construct high-speed railways linking Thailand to Asean countries and China, agreed in principle by the previous government, saying it will start instead with Bangkok-Chiang Mai as the first route.

The move coincided with an official visit by Chinese Vice Commerce Minister Chen Jian to Thailand yesterday. He was scheduled to meet with a deputy transport minister, a deputy commerce minister and the prime minister.

Deputy Transport Minister Chatt Kuldiloke said after meeting with Chen that the Chinese government had asked about the progress of the Sino-Thai high-speed line from the Northeast province of Nong Khai through Bangkok and on to the South. The Nong Khai-Bangkok route is to link up with a 480-kilometre high-speed railway in Laos and be extended to the southern city of Padang Besar, for connections with Malaysia and Singapore.

According to a source, the Chinese recently sent a draft memorandum of understanding on their investment in the scheme to the Thai government after the Abhisit Vejjajiva government sent their draft to Beijing.

Chatt said he had clarified this matter with the Chinese, pointing out that the policy of the current government was to make a high-speed line between Chiang Mai and Bangkok a priority, after consulting with Virabongsa Ramangkura, chairman of the Strategic Committee for Reconstruction and Future Development.

Chatt said the Kunming-Vientiane-Nong Khai-Bangkok-Padang Besar-Malaysia-Singapore route was a cooperative project with Asean - the so-called Singapore-Kunming Railway Link. The Thai government had pointed out that it and Beijing should set up a joint working group to study the plan.

He added that Silapachai Jarukasemrattana, acting permanent secretary of the Transport Ministry, had been assigned to head the Thai government's side, while the secretary-general of China's Railways Ministry would head the Chinese side.

"We expect the working group will take about six months to complete its study," Chatt said.

However, he said the Thai government intended to start construction of a high-speed railway this year. The Transport Ministry will also set up a new operational unit to take care of the project. Civil-engineering work will most likely be divided into many contracts in a bid to get the project completed faster. "The construction period is expected to be four years," Chatt said.

He said he did not agree with the current MoU framework, proposing that each government commit to equal 15-per-cent stakes in the project, while the remaining 70 per cent is covered by loans.

"Thailand considers that is has no obligation with China in terms of government-to-government agreement on the high-speed-railway project, as the two nations have not signed any such agreement."

He added that further progress on the project would await the proposal of the new working group.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/bus...d-rail-link-put-on-hold-for-now-30176665.html


----------



## Silver Swordsman

Dunno if I should put this here, but this was something that I did for my college applications. The MOR should love me for this. 






More information on Project Anniversary can be found in my sig.


----------



## derekf1974

Nice video.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

What has the reaction of China and Laos been?

Are China and Laos going forward with Kunming-Vientiane railway while the Thailand extension is delayed?


----------



## big-dog

Wuhan railway station










originally by Joseph K.K. Lee, Railpictures.net.

fowarded from yhcsc's post from bbs.hasea.com


----------



## Gag Halfrunt

^^ By Joseph K.K. Lee, Railpictures.net.

If "yhcsc" is not Joseph K.K. Lee, he/she just stole the photo...


----------



## big-dog

you are right, just modified the post.


----------



## Sopomon

big-dog said:


> Wuhan railway station
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> by yhcsc, bbs.hasea.com


Strange to see so many of the platforms empty?
Is Wuhan operating under capacity or something?


----------



## elianzoom

Must recognize !!, China has done an impresive work on mass transport by HSL, I Think this country will be one of the most oil independent in terms of mass transport in the future. They produce their own electricity, the grade of electrificatión of the ralways are impresive too, and the plans confirms this for very next future. If the metro area transports sistems are planned as well as the HSL´s , no oil crisis will get you off the way, well done !! sincerely congrats !!


----------



## zergcerebrates

Sopomon said:


> Strange to see so many of the platforms empty?
> Is Wuhan operating under capacity or something?




That photo was taken long time ago during the early days of its opening.


----------



## big-dog

> *China's railway ministry to launch $6.4 bln tenders*
> 
> SHANGHAI | Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:25pm EST
> 
> SHANGHAI Feb 24 (Reuters) - China's Ministry of Railways will start a new round of tender offers this year *for its high-speed railways *that could be worth up to 40 billion yuan ($6.35 billion), the China Securities Journal reported on Friday, quoting industry sources.
> 
> The ministry also plans to procure 86 billion yuan worth of vehicles this year, the sources told the newspaper.
> 
> China CNR Corp and China South Locomotive and Rolling Stock Corp Ltd (CSR) , may be the main beneficiaries of the tender offer and could see the new orders impacting results in 2013 and beyond, the newspaper said. ($1 = 6.2985 yuan) (Reporting by Melanie Lee; Editing by Jonathan Hopfner)


source


----------



## General Huo

Sopomon said:


> Strange to see so many of the platforms empty?
> Is Wuhan operating under capacity or something?


There are separated waiting areas in all Chinese railway stations. The platforms are opened to passengers only about 10 minutes before train's departure. So the platforms look empty in most of time.


----------



## hkskyline

General Huo said:


> There are separated waiting areas in all Chinese railway stations. The platforms are opened to passengers only about 10 minutes before train's departure. So the platforms look empty in most of time.


I think the intended meaning was why are there so few trains but so many platforms?


----------



## :jax:

This picture supposedly was near the opening, but I guess Chinese transport infrastructure will always have to appear over-dimensioned to contend with the New Year/Spring festival/Chunyun mayhem.


----------



## FM 2258

elianzoom said:


> Must recognize !!, China has done an impresive work on mass transport by HSL, I Think this country will be one of the most oil independent in terms of mass transport in the future. They produce their own electricity, the grade of electrificatión of the ralways are impresive too, and the plans confirms this for very next future. If the metro area transports sistems are planned as well as the HSL´s , no oil crisis will get you off the way, well done !! sincerely congrats !!


I agree, China has been doing a great job. When the world oil supply becomes scarce and prices for fuel oil are insanely expensive the Chinese will be zooming around the country at high speed. It seems like the U.S. politicians are just fucking around with us. As much as I love my country I am ashamed with what we're lacking over here. Congrats China, keep up the good work. :cheers:


----------



## HunanChina

CSR zhuzhou

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzU1NTU0NDM2.html


----------



## elianzoom

FM 2258 said:


> I agree, China has been doing a great job. When the world oil supply becomes scarce and prices for fuel oil are insanely expensive the Chinese will be zooming around the country at high speed. It seems like the U.S. politicians are just fucking around with us. As much as I love my country I am ashamed with what we're lacking over here. Congrats China, keep up the good work. :cheers:


 That´s true, but I hope that due to the US technologial and economical level in the future the politicians will reallize that , the mass transport should relay on non oil dependent energy source. Nowadays US is one of the countries with the best freight transport by rail around the world, step by step from this stage to the electrification of the routes, then improve corridors etc.. Acela North-East corridor shoud be in the next decade be use by over 10 million people or more, you´ll see, be confident.


----------



## stoneybee

:jax: said:


> This picture supposedly was near the opening, but I guess Chinese transport infrastructure will always have to appear over-dimensioned to contend with the New Year/Spring festival/Chunyun mayhem.


I think we are reading way too much into a single picture. I am sure someone can also find a picture of the same platform packed with people too.


----------



## strandeed

elianzoom said:


> Must recognize !!, China has done an impresive work on mass transport by HSL, I Think this country will be one of the most oil independent in terms of mass transport in the future. They produce their own electricity, the grade of electrificatión of the ralways are impresive too, and the plans confirms this for very next future. If the metro area transports sistems are planned as well as the HSL´s , no oil crisis will get you off the way, well done !! sincerely congrats !!


By the time oil becomes scarce, the Chinese railway network will have reached the end of it's life and need rebuilding.

There is enough oil left in the ground for another hundred years+


----------



## elianzoom

strandeed said:


> By the time oil becomes scarce, the Chinese railway network will have reached the end of it's life and need rebuilding.
> 
> There is enough oil left in the ground for another hundred years+


Meanwhile the oil is more and more expensive so it´s quite clever to invest in non-oil dependent mass transport even more for a country with millions and millions of people moving day by day, and the HSL lines are a good way to do it, even more if by the end the get HST technolgy and can build a new model by themselves. Clever people the Chinese, don´t doubt!!


----------



## chornedsnorkack

It is March.

When in this month shall testing of Wuhan-Zhengzhou high speed railway start?


----------



## maldini

hkskyline said:


> I think the intended meaning was why are there so few trains but so many platforms?


The reasons is not all routes are open yet.


----------



## hkskyline

maldini said:


> The reasons is not all routes are open yet.


I guess that's for when Beijing - Wuhan's entire stretch opens?


----------



## khoojyh

As up to date, how many lines are open for public use?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

khoojyh said:


> As up to date, how many lines are open for public use?


Probably depends on counting:
Beijing-Shanghai
Wuhan-Guangzhou South
Ningbo-Wenzhou
Wenzhou-Fuzhou
Fuzhou-Xiamen
Qingdao-Jinan
Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan
Zhengzhou-Xian
Nanjing-Hefei
Hefei-Wuhan
Yichang-Wanzhou
Chengdu-Suining-Dazhou
Shanghai-Hangzhou
Guangzhou South-Longhua
Qinhuangdao-Shenyang
Beijing-Tianjin
Chenhdu-Dujiangyan
Shanghai-Nanjing
Nanchang-Jiujian
Hainan East Ring
Changchun-Jilin
Guangzhou-Zhuhai

Is the list correct?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> It is March.
> 
> When in this month shall testing of Wuhan-Zhengzhou high speed railway start?


Power on tests commenced on Feb 25th, test run will start on March 11th, trial service start on April 11th, official opening on July 1st. 
Test run on the Zhengzhou-Shijiazhuang section will start on Jun 20th.
http://crh.gaotie.cn/shiwu/2012-02-21/24502.html

Also, Nanjing-Hangzhou line opening date has been specified by Jiangsu Provincial Transportation Department to be October 2012, test run starts in July.http://finance.ifeng.com/news/region/20120229/5676234.shtml


----------



## Galactic

http://politics.caijing.com.cn/2012-03-01/111721595.html - possibly the Hankou-Yichang railway won't be opened in May?

Translation from http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/...-trouble-death-by-push-ups-baidu-gets-social/


> More bad news for China’s beleaguered high-speed rail network: A dirt dealer has revealed that a 3-kilometer section of high-speed rail track bed between the cities of Wuhan and Yichang (汉宜高铁) in Hubei province was made using earth instead of rock, Cajing reports. “Because I supplied the earth, I have a responsibility to report it, otherwise I’m conspiring against the country,” the magazine quotes the dirt dealer, Ni Hongjun, as saying. According to Ni, the earth used in the track bed was left over from construction on a different part of the rail line. Were the track bed to become waterlogged due to heavy rain, it could soften and shift, the magazine says – no small matter on a line where trains typically travel between 200 and 250 kilometers per hour.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Wuhan-Longhua*

How many high speed trains daily now run Wuhan-Guangzhou South?
And how many high speed trains daily shall run Wuhan-Guangzhou South after 17th of March, when Wuhan-Guangzhou South-Longhua direct trains start?


----------



## hmmwv

Galactic said:


> http://politics.caijing.com.cn/2012-03-01/111721595.html - possibly the Hankou-Yichang railway won't be opened in May?
> 
> Translation from http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/...-trouble-death-by-push-ups-baidu-gets-social/


This is a potentially very serious problem is proved to be true, as Hankou-Yichang railway is in an area prone to heavy rails and mudslides. The line is said to be more difficult to build than Qinghai-Tibet line and a lot of people died building it, so MOR better take this seriously or it's a grave crime against the nation.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> How many high speed trains daily now run Wuhan-Guangzhou South?
> And how many high speed trains daily shall run Wuhan-Guangzhou South after 17th of March, when Wuhan-Guangzhou South-Longhua direct trains start?


Currently they are running 52 pairs between Wuhan and Guangzhou South. The final schedule for Wuhan-Shenzhen Longhua direct trains is still pending MOR approval, but the date is set at April 1st. http://www.china.com.cn/info/2012-02/15/content_24644688.htm


----------



## big-dog

> *China develops bullet train for use in extreme cold*
> 
> Updated: 2012-03-04 12:53
> 
> (Xinhua)
> 
> BEIJING - Chinese engineers have developed a new type of bullet train that can withstand temperatures as low as minus 40 degrees Celsius, a researcher familiar with the train's development said Sunday.
> 
> Li Heping, a research fellow with the China Academy of Railway Sciences (CARS), told Xinhua on the sidelines of the annual session of the 11th Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC) National Committee, which opened Saturday.
> 
> The prototype of the new bullet train was developed by China CNR Corporation Limited, the country's second largest train maker, said Li, who is also a member of the CPPCC National Committee.
> 
> Currently, the new bullet train is under safety evaluation and tests by the CARS, Li said.
> 
> "We demand bullet trains running in severe cold areas withstand the test of temperature as low as minus 40 degrees Celsius and such requirements are very stringent," he said.
> 
> According to Li, component parts, material and the control system equipped with the bullet train must pass all necessary tests under an ultra-low temperature environment before putting into operation.
> 
> If the new bullet train passes all tests, it is expected to debut in the Harbin-Dalian rail line, in northeast China, at the end of this year, Li said.


Source


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Wuhan stations*

I see that some D trains Wuhan-Hefei are described as departing from "Wuhan", some from "Wuhan Hankou" and some from "Wuhan Wuchang". 

Which one of these stations is the one depicted as empty?

How many high speed railway stations are in central Wuhan, on the two high speed lines now operating?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> I see that some D trains Wuhan-Hefei are described as departing from "Wuhan", some from "Wuhan Hankou" and some from "Wuhan Wuchang".
> 
> Which one of these stations is the one depicted as empty?
> 
> How many high speed railway stations are in central Wuhan, on the two high speed lines now operating?


The new station is Wuhan Station, Hankou and Wuchang are two separate stations that is now connected on the same loop, so they are all serving Wuhan city, and are all CRH capable. Wuhan city is formed by Wuhan, Hankou, and Wuchang townships.


----------



## Norge78

*World News (update)*

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2012/mar/04/poland-train-crash-video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-3UdepRv5Q


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> The new station is Wuhan Station, Hankou and Wuchang are two separate stations that is now connected on the same loop, so they are all serving Wuhan city, and are all CRH capable.


Does Wuhan-Xianning Metropolis Intercity Railway follow the whole loop and stop in Wuhan and all other stations on the loop?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Does Wuhan-Xianning Metropolis Intercity Railway follow the whole loop and stop in Wuhan and all other stations on the loop?


My understanding is yes, that line will link all those stations in a loop.


----------



## Rekarte

*Great video,but a little bit old*:cheers:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Is Wuhan-Xianning Metropolis Intercity Railway also built on earth, or is this line on schedule to open in May?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is Wuhan-Xianning Metropolis Intercity Railway also built on earth, or is this line on schedule to open in May?


No I believe that one is built either on the Chinese Moon or the Mars colony.


----------



## Gaeus

Just wondrin if that new CRH is now under operation? I don't have the pic of the actual train but the design is simply amazing. I would love to see one running.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

So what are the destinations of the Wuhan Metropolis Intercity Railway?

One line goes south from the circle line. That is the Xianning line, and if it is built on rock not earth then it should open this May.
One line goes southeast along the south bank of Yangtze. That is Huangshi line. In which month should it open?
One line branches from the Huangshi line across to the north bank of Yangtze. That is Huanggang line.
One line goes northwest past Tianhe airport. That is Xiaogan line.
One line goes west from Hanyang between Yangtze and Han and branches. Which line is it?


----------



## Huhu

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is Wuhan-Xianning Metropolis Intercity Railway also built on earth, or is this line on schedule to open in May?





hmmwv said:


> No I believe that one is built either on the Chinese Moon or the Mars colony.


Lol almost missed this little exchange.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

^^Made my day.


----------



## ANR

*Bullet trains still on the fast track*

_Perhaps not a lot of new information but still interesting:_

Last Updated: 2012-03-07 
Source:China Daily

China will launch nine new lines for bullet trains by the end of this year, indicating that the country will not change its plans for railways in the 12th Five-Year Plan (2011-15) despite a fatal bullet train crash in July, a railway official said on Monday. Huang Qiang, chief researcher of the China Academy of Railway Sciences and a member of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference National Committee, added that the country will welcome overseas and private investment to overcome a lack of funding. 

Some high-speed train projects were stalled last year because of a budget shortfall of 500 billion yuan ($79 billion) for the whole industry, said Huang. On Monday, Wang Mengshu, chief engineer of the China Railway Tunnel Group, told the annual session of the National People's Congress, the top legislative body, that the suspension cost the country more than 100 billion yuan, according to reports from the Xinhua News Agency. "According to China's plans, by the end of this year the total track length will stretch 80,000 kilometers, and will be 120,000 kilometers by the end of 2015," Huang said. The rails for the high-speed trains - currently 7,000 km in length - will account for 12,000 km of the 2015 total.

On July 23, a high-speed train crashed into a stalled engine near the city of Wenzhou leaving 40 people dead and 172 injured. It was the first major accident in the history of China's high-speed railway. An official report released about six months later showed that the collision was caused by severe design defects in control-center equipment and inadequate inspection of parts. "All the defective parts have been recalled and replaced," said Li Heping, another researcher at the China Academy of Railway Sciences and also a member of the CPPCC. Following the crash, the government reduced the speed of bullet trains to 300 km per hour from 350 km. However, Huang said the reduction wasn't implemented because of the accident, but because China's current railway situation doesn't call for such a high speed. "When we add more trains, the speed may rise again." he said. He also admitted that exports of high-speed trains will be affected by the crash in the short term, but he is optimistic about exporting trains and technology over the long term. "Although in some technologies, China is still behind developed countries, such as Japan and Germany, we have advanced technologies that are comparable with those of other countries," he said.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

^Owned. 

I admire this perseverance by the Chinese... in America, one train crash in 1964 capped the speed at 79 mph, which is still enforced today. I wonder though, regarding their claim of reduced speed is really to save money or just a facade?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

ANR said:


> China will launch nine new lines for bullet trains by the end of this year,


That is, lines which start construction.
Which is the list of these 9?


ANR said:


> indicating that the country will not change its plans for railways in the 12th Five-Year Plan (2011-15)


How many high speed railways shall, under the 12th Five Year Plan, start construction within 2013? Over 2014...2015?


ANR said:


> "According to China's plans, by the end of this year the total track length will stretch 80,000 kilometers, and will be 120,000 kilometers by the end of 2015," Huang said. The rails for the high-speed trains - currently 7,000 km in length - will account for 12,000 km of the 2015 total.


In other words, China shall complete 5000 km high speed railways within 2013...2015, and 35000 km low speed railways in these 3 years.



ANR said:


> However, Huang said the reduction wasn't implemented because of the accident, but because China's current railway situation doesn't call for such a high speed. "When we add more trains, the speed may rise again." he said.


May? Or may not. What shall the considerations be besides number of trains?


ANR said:


>


I cannot see some existing high speed railways on the 4+4 map. Like Hainan East Ring.
Shall any other railways besides 4+4 be opened before 2020?
Which is the last of 4+4 to open?


----------



## Silly_Walks

ANR said:


> _Perhaps not a lot of new information but still interesting:_


This image is wrong. China no longer has any HSR operating at 350 km/h, and Spain actually has some HSR operating OVER 300 km/h.


----------



## hkskyline

*Engineer appeals against halt on high-speed railway construction*

BEIJING, March 5 (Xinhua) -- A Chinese railway engineer on Monday warned against a random halt to the country's high-speed railway construction, as it could cause huge losses.

Wang Mengshu, chief engineer of the China Railway Tunnel Group, said China lost more than 100 billion yuan (15.87 billion U.S.dollars) last year when several high-speed railway projects were halted due to a shortage in funding.

He made the remarks on the sidelines of the annual session of the National People's Congress (NPC), China's top legislature.

China has planned to build inter-city high-speed railways that could link Beijing and all the provincial capitals, as well as connect provincial capitals with smaller cities, said Wang, who is also an academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering and an NPC deputy. ' The government aimed to make railway trips between Beijing and all provincial capitals, except Urumqi and Lhasa in the far west, no more than eight hours, he said.

China's railway sector was hit hard in the second half of 2011, after the government tightened liquidity control and a deadly train collision last July eroded investor confidence and limited the ministry's ability to borrow money or sell bonds.

The funding shortage has delayed the construction of the high-speed railway between Beijing and Guangzhou in the south, and that between Beijing and the northern city of Harbin. Both projects were scheduled to be finished by the end of last year, according to Wang.

China planned to invest 400 billion yuan in railway infrastructure construction in 2012, slightly down from the total expenditure of 469 billion yuan in 2011 and a marked decrease from over 700 billion yuan in 2010, according to the railway ministry.


----------



## joseph1951

chornedsnorkack said:


> That is, lines which start construction.
> Which is the list of these 9?
> 
> How many high speed railways shall, under the 12th Five Year Plan, start construction within 2013? Over 2014...2015?
> 
> In other words, China shall complete 5000 km high speed railways within 2013...2015, and 35000 km low speed railways in these 3 years.
> 
> 
> May? Or may not. What shall the considerations be besides number of trains?
> 
> I cannot see some existing high speed railways on the 4+4 map. Like Hainan East Ring.
> Shall any other railways besides 4+4 be opened before 2020?
> Which is the last of 4+4 to open?


These comparisons are useless and meanigess if they are not taken in relation to the Country surface and/or population.

Frr example: China has a surface of about 9.640 821 sqkm, Spain has a surface of about 504.000 sqkm.
China has about 1,3 billion people and Spain has only 46 million..
Therefoe whern comparing population with kms o HSLs Spain has a bout 28 times HSLs/per person. 
Therefore to be at par with Spain, China should have at least 170,000/180,000 kms of HSLs.....


----------



## foxmulder

joseph1951 said:


> These comparisons are useless and meanigess if they are not taken in relation to the Country surface and/or population.
> 
> Frr example: China has a surface of about 9.640 821 sqkm, Spain has a surface of about 504.000 sqkm.
> China has about 1,3 billion people and Spain has only 46 million..
> Therefoe whern comparing population with kms o HSLs Spain has a bout 28 times HSLs/per person.
> Therefore to be at par with Spain, China should have at least 170,000/180,000 kms of HSLs.....


You are kind of right but also kind of wrong. It is not that dry cut. Your are over simplifying it. Same length of high speed rail may exist but capacity and usage can be quite different. Also, absolute values are significant in many cases, too. China has the longest high speed railroad. It's high speed rail roads are carrying more people than anywhere but Japan. Soon this will change, too. However, as you wrote, when you divide the number to people who live, per person number will look small and realistically it will probably never reach those per person numbers in Spain. *This is why high speed rail in China is more efficient, cheaper and required. * That huge population density makes high speed rail a *must*. For me, this is why China cannot over-invest on high speed rail. there is simply no other way to transport that many people. 

Surface area comparison is completely meaningless because of huge discrepancies in population density. Half of China is wilderness with almost no people.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

joseph1951 said:


> Frr example: China has a surface of about 9.640 821 sqkm, Spain has a surface of about 504.000 sqkm.
> China has about 1,3 billion people and Spain has only 46 million..
> Therefoe whern comparing population with kms o HSLs Spain has a bout 28 times HSLs/per person.
> Therefore to be at par with Spain, China should have at least 170,000/180,000 kms of HSLs.....


China has 10 provinces and 1 autonomous region each with population over 46 millions, but none of these has more than 485 000 sq km (Sichuan). 3 autonomous regions and 1 province have combined area of 4 793 000 sq km, about half of China, but none of these have population over 24,7 millions (Inner Mongolia), and the four together have population of about 55 millions.


----------



## hmmwv

Out of that list, I think Xuzhou-Lanzhou is probably the last one built, if it indeed gets finished before 2020.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> Out of that list, I think Xuzhou-Lanzhou is probably the last one built, if it indeed gets finished before 2020.


Which is the last part of Xuzhou-Lanzhou to get finished - Xuzhou-Zhengzhou, or Baoji-Lanzhou?


----------



## hkskyline

*Train maker enmeshed in luxury fitting controversy*

BEIJING, March 8 (Xinhua) -- China's major bullet train maker remains mired in controversy despite refuting a damaging media report.

The China South Locomotive & Rolling Stock Corporation (CSR), the country's largest train manufacturer, on Tuesday refuted a media report claiming that it had spent lavishly on luxury fixtures. The report accuses the company of purchasing internal fixtures such as toilet fittings at prices far exceeding market averages from companies with "high-level connections" to the Ministry of Railways.

The statement, which runs to less than 200 words and came upon Railway Minister Sheng Guangzu's request, did not give any details apart from the denial, and was followed by the media's counter-statement.

Century Weekly, the magazine which ran a cover story about the CSR's alleged extravagant procurement, said the article was based on purchase documents it had obtained, and it would release those papers if necessary.

Last month, the magazine reported that the CSR had been paying up to 10 times more than market rates for toilet and other fittings supplied by new and unknown companies with government connections.

The report gave out a string of overpriced items including sink tops, water valves and chairs in the first class carriage.

For instance, sink tops were typically priced at 3,000 yuan (474.9 U.S.dollars) per linear meter in Beijing's retail market, but the CSR bought a two-linear-meter one for 26,096 yuan, more than four times the market price, the magazine reported.

Much attention has been paid to bullet trains and their makers after a deadly rail accident last summer.

On July 23, a high-speed train rammed into a stalled train near the city of Wenzhou in the eastern province of Zhejiang, leaving 40 dead and 172 injured.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Which is the last part of Xuzhou-Lanzhou to get finished - Xuzhou-Zhengzhou, or Baoji-Lanzhou?


I'd assume Baoji-Lanzhou, since there will be enough demand between Xuzhou and Zhengzhou.


----------



## hkskyline

*Official denies mass suspension of China's high-speed railway construction*

BEIJING, March 9 (Xinhua) -- The construction of China's high-speed railway was not suspended en masse and the country's achievements in train transportation should not be overlooked despite some high-profile mistakes, a senior railway official said Friday.

Development of key rail projects will be guaranteed and continued, said Wu Qiang, director of the transportation unit of the Ministry of Railways.

"Investment in railways will total 500 billion yuan (79.37 billion U.S. dollars) this year, and the money used for railways under construction is assured," Wu, a deputy to the National People's Congress, the country's top legislature, said while participating in this year's parliamentary session.

Wu said China's high-speed railway has a promising outlook.

In 2011, a total of 440 million passengers were transported through the country's 18 high-speed lines, almost double the figure in 2010, according to the official.

The average occupancy rate of high-speed trains was 60 percent, rising to 80 percent during the peak time of holidays, claimed Wu.

"Generally speaking, high-speed railways are worth developing as a more environmentally-friendly and more efficient industry," he said.

"However, we need to continuously adjust and improve their development to make them more scientific and sustainable, because China's high-speed network is growing very fast."

The country's construction of high-speed lines suffered a major setback last year when two bullet trains collided in east China's Zhejiang province, leaving 40 passengers dead and 172 others injured.

Sporadic breakdowns following the incident compounded widespread worries over the safety of the network.

Wu said China's high-speed rail technology is maturing after six speed hikes, during which a lot of expertise was accumulated in regard to lines, traction and power supply.

"The overall development of China's high-speed railways should not be denied because of some mistakes," Wu said.

NEW ONLINE TICKET SYSTEM

Wu also said the ministry is developing a new online ticketing system, which is expected to be operational by the Spring Festival in February next year.

During this year's Spring Festival holiday, the online ticket system frequently crashed or was inaccessible as it failed to cope with demand, but Wu said its replacement is more efficient, reliable and user-friendly.

Notably, it will allow more payment methods.

Wu said the new ticket system is under development and the Ministry of Railways will solicit opinions on it from the public via the Internet.

Train tickets sold online and via telephone account for about one fifth of total sales, according to Wu.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> I'd assume Baoji-Lanzhou, since there will be enough demand between Xuzhou and Zhengzhou.


Interesting choice.

Xuzhou is already between Beijing and Shanghai, well connected to both. Only Xuzhou-Guangzhou is currently indirect and slow via Nanjing-Wuhan.

Zhengzhou is now connected to Xian. If Zhengzhou-Wuhan were to open, Zhengzhou and Xian would have a direct connection to Guangzhou. If Zhengzhou-Shijiazhuang-Beijing were to open, Zhengzhou would have a direct connection to Beijing. Only Zhengzhou-Shanghai would be indirect and slow via Wuhan-Nanjing.

Whereas, unless Lanzhou-Baoji were built, Lanzhou would have no connection at all.


----------



## hmmwv

Okay, been doing some research and apparently I'm slightly off base here. 

Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR: 
Also called Lanzhou-Xinjiang Second Double Line, will finish on April 2013. Design speed 300km/h with potential to upgrade to 350km/h, initial operating speed set at 250km/h.

Xuzhou-Lanzhou PDL:
1. Baoji-Lanzhou section, scheduled to break ground in July 2012, finish in 2017. Design speed reduced to 250km/h with potential to upgrade to 350km/h.
2. Xi'an-Baoji section, construction started on Feb 28, 2012, scheduled to finish in late 2013 and trial runs start early 2014. Design speed 350km/h.
3. Zhengzhou-Xi'an section, operating since 2010, design speed 350km/h.
4. Zhengzhou-Xuzhou section will start construction in second half of 2012, complete in 2015, design speed 250km/h with 350km/h upgrade option.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Whereas, unless Lanzhou-Baoji were built, Lanzhou would have no connection at all.


Well they electrified Longhai Railway in 2006 so it's still fairly quick to get from Lanzhou to Xuzhou right now (passenger trains can go up to 140km/h).


----------



## k.k.jetcar

*High speed rail section collapses*

Fortunately, the line is not yet open for revenue service:



> *China High-Speed Rail Section Collapses After Rains, Renewing Safety Fears*
> A section of an unopened high-speed railway collapsed in central China’s Hubei province following heavy rains, renewing safety concerns prompted by a fatal crash last year.
> 
> Hundreds of workers have been sent to make repairs to the 300-meter (984-foot) roadbed after the March 9 failure in Qianjiang city, the official Xinhua News Agency said today, citing local authorities. The stretch, which had undergone test runs, is part of a line due to open in May.
> 
> China Railway Construction Corp. (1186), which built the section, according to Xinhua, and China Railway Group Ltd. (390) both plunged the most this year in Hong Kong on speculation the incident may deter the government from pushing ahead with a 2.8 trillion yuan ($443 billion) building plan. Construction was slowed last year after 40 people were killed in a high-speed crash in July.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...ection-collapses-after-rains-xinhua-says.html


----------



## Silver Swordsman

Captain Obvious said:


> ^That's not good at all.


While I support China's attempt to build big, this kind of stuff is unacceptable. Indeed, thank goodness the line wasn't open yet. I wonder why this wasn't addressed immediately after the whistleblower... after they pledged to fix problems after Wenzhou, the fact that this has been allowed to happen again is unthinkable. First time's a gamble, second time's a charm.


----------



## yaohua2000

hmmwv said:


> Well they electrified Longhai Railway in 2006 so it's still fairly quick to get from Lanzhou to Xuzhou right now (passenger trains can go up to 140km/h).


Baoji to Lanzhou is relatively new, but Lanzhou to Baoji is too slow, it must be upgraded.


----------



## hkskyline

Hong Kong news reports note the incident was first raised in online discussion forums inside China, and then the media picked it up and went to the site for a look.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Has Wuhan-Xianning Metropolis Intercity Railway also collapsed, or is that one still on schedule to open this May?

If Hankou-Yichang high speed railway had been built on Moon, it might not have been damaged by heavy rain.


----------



## big-dog

*Zhengzhou new east station to be ready in June*










Main structure of Zhengzhou new east railway station is completed. *The largest railway station of China*, when completed, is scheduled to open in June.

Zhengzhou new east station is located at the crossing point of Beijing-guangzhou (north-south) and Xuzhou-Lanzhou (east-west) HSR, in Zhengzhou, Henan province.

Size: 392,000 sqms, 30 platforms
Cost: 7.2 bln yuan, 30 months
It has taxi and bus stations built in and will be connecting subway line 1 and line 5.





































source


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Has Wuhan-Xianning Metropolis Intercity Railway also collapsed, or is that one still on schedule to open this May?
> 
> If Hankou-Yichang high speed railway had been built on Moon, it might not have been damaged by heavy rain.


Wuhan Intercity line is not related to Hanyi Railway.
Although you are right it should be immune to heavy rain, I'd argue the moon section of Hanyi line will be prone to meteor shower and extreme temperature variation.



Silver Swordsman said:


> While I support China's attempt to build big, this kind of stuff is unacceptable. Indeed, thank goodness the line wasn't open yet. I wonder why this wasn't addressed immediately after the whistleblower... after they pledged to fix problems after Wenzhou, the fact that this has been allowed to happen again is unthinkable. First time's a gamble, second time's a charm.


Absolutely agree, sloppy construction oversight is pretty common in China but there is no excuse for that to happen in key projects such as the Hanyi Railway. 

BTW the earlier reports have certain degree of exaggeration, apparently there was no "collapse" because the section is not elevated, rather it's foundation sinking over tolerance. The sink tolerance is 3mm and during their inspection in February they discovered that the actual sinking rate is between 3 and 4mm. Therefore they have ordered rework for that stretch of railway, all laid tracks have been removed. Inspector indicated it's a random inspection which found the problem, but insisted the problem will be discovered even after commercial service has started because test train will run regularly to take measurement.
http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2012-03-12/233724102632.shtml


----------



## FM 2258

^^

I imagined a section of rail roadbed collapsing a few feet as if someone kicked down a sand castle.


----------



## big-dog

*
China ups bullet train brake test record*



> Updated: 2012-03-11 19:43
> 
> (Xinhua)
> 
> BEIJING - China has completed the construction of a powerful test bench for a train braking system, setting a world record by allowing a maximum test speed of up to 530 kilometers per hour, a railway researcher said Sunday.
> 
> Li Heping, a political adviser and researcher with the China Academy of Railway Sciences (CARS), said that as a key technology for high-speed trains, the test bench has been put into operation at a state key laboratory for the high-speed railway system at CARS.
> 
> The test bench can simulate the high-speed train braking process in different conditions like dry or humid environments, as well as airstream, low temperature and snowfall, Li told Xinhua on the sidelines of China's annual legislative session.
> 
> The CARS-developed high-speed train brake disc and brake lining have both passed tests at the new bench under maximum-speed conditions, said Li.


source


----------



## HunanChina

CRH1E

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzU0MDc3NDA0.html

password:011812


----------



## HunanChina

Wenzhou-Fuzhou

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzQ2NjMwMTYw.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzQ2NzA0MTQw.html


----------



## Pansori

So the 'collapse' actually was the sinking of the foundation by 3.3mm?


----------



## HunanChina

nice

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzY0MzkxMDY4.html


----------



## Silver Swordsman

Pansori said:


> So the 'collapse' actually was the sinking of the foundation by 3.3mm?


Yeah.

Speaking of which, since that kind of subsidence cannot be seen by the human eye, or normally measured during maintenance checks, it probably means that they had some sort of trackside monitoring system that detected such phenomena, which means that they *did* include these subsystems...

Looking at the new catenary poles in the pictures, it seems like they added grounding wires (the absence of which the Wenzhou collision was partially attributed to), which means they did take these extra safety precautions seriously. 

If my conjectures are true: faith in CRH is _somewhat_ restored...


----------



## Traceparts

beijing - shanghai on G1 train


----------



## foxmulder

yaohua2000 said:


>


Cute little video, thanks for sharing.


----------



## dumbfword

Cool videos. Thank you for posting!


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Has the direct train schedule between Longhua and Futian been disclosed?


----------



## yaohua2000

chornedsnorkack said:


> Has the direct train schedule between Longhua and Futian been disclosed?


You should take Shenzhen Metro.


----------



## hmmwv

coth said:


> so it seems to be surface section just washed away?


Nothing was washed away, the foundation sank close to 4mm, which is over the 3mm tolerance, so they had to redo the entire stretch, what you are see is excavating the already completed track bed and reinforce the foundation below with more rocks. The entire CRH system is built to such high standard the margin of error is very small, so even a 4mm sunk, which is invisible to the naked eye, could potentially cause series problems during operation. They need to take every small incident like this seriously to ensure the long term safety and efficiency of the CRH system. I don't blame Western media to blow this thing out of proportion at all, it shows how few problems they can dig up now, and it promotes MOR to adopt a zero tolerance policy towards quality control.


----------



## hmmwv

Silver Swordsman said:


> Yeah.
> 
> Speaking of which, since that kind of subsidence cannot be seen by the human eye, or normally measured during maintenance checks, it probably means that they had some sort of trackside monitoring system that detected such phenomena, which means that they *did* include these subsystems...
> 
> Looking at the new catenary poles in the pictures, it seems like they added grounding wires (the absence of which the Wenzhou collision was partially attributed to), which means they did take these extra safety precautions seriously.
> 
> If my conjectures are true: faith in CRH is _somewhat_ restored...


Catenary poles are always grounded, the problem was that some track side sensors and data I/O units for the ATC were not grounded properly and prone to malfunction when stricken by lighting.


----------



## hmmwv

yaohua2000 said:


>


There were several videos posted before but the altitude wasn't so high so I assumed it was an AR.Drone, since it's probably the easiest civilian UAV to obtain that has HD video recording capability. But the new video is clearly out of AR.Drone's reach so it must be some rather expensive gas powered helicopter such as that Yamaha one.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Sorry. Shenzhen Metro Line 4 does not actually go to Futian station.

How about the schedule and prices for Longhua-Guangzhou South-Wuhan direct trains?


----------



## Silly_Walks

hmmwv said:


> Nothing was washed away, the foundation sank close to 4mm, which is over the 3mm tolerance, so they had to redo the entire stretch, what you are see is excavating the already completed track bed and reinforce the foundation below with more rocks. The entire CRH system is built to such high standard the margin of error is very small, so even a 4mm sunk, which is invisible to the naked eye


I agree with your main point that nothing was "washed away", but I do have to make a short comment here: the human eye can see things much smaller than 1 mm, so 4 mm isn't a problem at all.
Of course there is the question of the distance from which you are looking at, and how gradual the sinking was, but you can't outright say that 4 mm sinking is invisible to the naked eye.


----------



## Sopomon

hmmwv said:


> There were several videos posted before but the altitude wasn't so high so I assumed it was an AR.Drone, since it's probably the easiest civilian UAV to obtain that has HD video recording capability. But the new video is clearly out of AR.Drone's reach so it must be some rather expensive gas powered helicopter such as that Yamaha one.


Or maybe strapped a GoPro to it? Nice vid btw.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

hmmwv said:


> Catenary poles are always grounded, the problem was that some track side sensors and data I/O units for the ATC were not grounded properly and prone to malfunction when stricken by lighting.


When I meant "grounding wire" I'm not referring to the fact that the poles are grounded: I'm referring to the installation of a wire that runs above each pole so that lightning strikes wouldn't hit other wires or components that would otherwise be compromised in the event of a lightning strike.

I talked with a maintenance manager from THSR while railroading: he pointed out that the top wires, which run the entire length of the line (minus tunnels), are designed so that the lines, being situated higher up, would attract lightning and divert it away from the critical subsystems:


















On the other hand, when we look at the older (pre-Wenzhou) CRH catenaries, we see that no such protection exists:










Now, if we go back and look at the pics in Hubei where the subsidence occured, you can see that there are now lines at the top, too.


----------



## big-dog

a picture of HSR running in snow










source


----------



## big-dog

*Harbin West station*

Located in harbin, Heilongjiang Province

Opening on* July 1st 2012*, for Harbin-Dalian HSR














































construction (Sep 2011)










source


----------



## ANR

*High-speed bound*

By Niu Yixin 
2012-3-19
shanghaidaily.com










A woman and her daughter go to board the Shanghai-Nanjing high-speed train at the Shanghai Railway Station yesterday. Starting tomorrow, Shanghai rail authorities will add more trains to the Shanghai-Nanjing and Shanghai-Hangzhou high-speed railway routes, providing 74 and 37 trains on the weekends, respectively, compared with 69 and 34 before.


----------



## hmmwv

ANR said:


> By Niu Yixin
> 2012-3-19
> shanghaidaily.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A woman and her daughter go to board the Shanghai-Nanjing high-speed train at the Shanghai Railway Station yesterday. Starting tomorrow, Shanghai rail authorities will add more trains to the Shanghai-Nanjing and Shanghai-Hangzhou high-speed railway routes, providing 74 and 37 trains on the weekends, respectively, compared with 69 and 34 before.


This is long overdue, every time I ride it the train is packed, last year's speed reduction didn't help neither.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Is the current schedule out of Shanghai limited by space on the railway line, or by availability of completed trains?


----------



## foxmulder

Harbin West looks really attractive. Brick color looks different and beautiful. I wonder how it will come out when it is completed.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is the current schedule out of Shanghai limited by space on the railway line, or by availability of completed trains?


My guess would be available trainsets, I assume they are increase frequency on the Shanghai-Nanjing ICL since they mentioned Shanghai Railway Station, the operating speed has been reduced on the line so train turnaround time increased, effectively reducing the available trainsets. Since this is a 300-350km/h line they will be running newer trains, mainly CRH2C. I guess as more and more CRH380A/B get produced they can get some of those trains there too.


----------



## Northridge

I read somewhere that the SHA-PEK HSR line has a capacity of 200.000 persons a day. Is this right, and what is it based on?

I think it seems a little bit to high. 76 trains a day, ca 1000 people per train, and it's not far off, but still.
I'm drunk, sorry..


----------



## big-dog

*Audit shows fraud on high-speed rail project*

Updated: 2012-03-20 10:05

By Xin Dingding (China Daily)



> A bullet train snakes its way along the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway. [Photo / Xinhua]
> 
> 
> *A report released by the National Audit Office on Monday showed more evidence of fraud, waste, mismanagement and irregular procurement totaling billions of yuan connected to the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway. *
> 
> The report marked the end of a three-year audit aiming to regulate the major railway project's management and use of funds.
> 
> Most of the problems pinpointed have been corrected, said a senior audit official, adding that the railway sector will remain its focus in the future.
> 
> The third audit report into the rail link that opened in June last year found that irregularities started from the bidding process on the project as early as December 2007, five months before construction began.
> 
> Auditors found the Ministry of Railways shortened the period for bidders to get preliminary review application documents to 13 hours from the standard five days, and cut the period for bidders to submit applications to less than 24 hours from the standard seven days.
> 
> Purchases that were not made through standard bidding involved 849 million yuan ($134 million). In one case, the project's chief constructor, Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway Co, was found to have bought at least 77.86 million yuan worth of materials from non-bidding suppliers since October 2009, part of which were bought at higher prices than those quoted by winning bidders.
> 
> The company also purchased 698 million yuan worth of materials in August 2009 from as many as 10 bidding suppliers, instead of following bidding principles to find the most economic combination of suppliers.
> 
> "The Ministry of Railways noted that it will strictly follow rules in future bidding for construction and material purchase, and it has issued two regulations to perfect its bidding system," the audit report said.
> 
> By the end of June, at least 196.3 billion yuan - compared with an estimated budget of 163.8 billion yuan - has been spent on land expropriation and construction for the mammoth 1,318-km rail project, the report said.
> 
> The total investment for the railway was earlier estimated at 217.6 billion yuan, which also included an estimated 53.8 billion yuan for the purchase of trains and loan interest during construction.
> 
> The auditors found that 413 million yuan spent on train windshields was wasted after the line's operation speed was lowered and design specifications were changed, the report said.
> 
> The ministry has responded to the auditors by saying that the windshields would be used in other railway projects.
> 
> The auditors had also found evidence of wrongdoing by local governments.
> 
> Jiangning Economic Development Zone in Nanjing was found to have applied for land compensation worth 140 million yuan from the railway using false documents, receiving 40 million yuan in payments by the end of June.
> 
> Beichen district government in Tianjin had 340 million yuan in its own accounts instead of using it to promptly pay compensation for land expropriated for the railway.
> 
> The report said local governments are investigating the cases.
> 
> The Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway has also struggled to pay suppliers and contractors. By the end of May, the railway had 8.25 billion yuan in debts owed to 656 suppliers and 1,471 contractors.
> 
> Previous reports were published in 2010 and 2011 by the top auditor.
> 
> Xu Aisheng, chief of the fixed assets investment audit department at the National Audit Office, said that all three auditing reports have found problems including mismanagement, fraud and irregular procurement.
> 
> "Thanks to effective measures taken by the Ministry of Railways and local governments, the problems found in the past three years have mostly been settled," he said.
> 
> "As railway projects involve huge amounts of investment, the National Audit Office will continue its focus on the railway sector," he said.
> 
> The report has again raised concerns in cyberspace, as netizens urged punishment for those found responsible.
> 
> "It's no use to just point out the problems," said a netizen named "Qian'anshi" on a micro blog.
> 
> Li Chengyan, a professor in the School of Government at Peking University, said that auditing is the first step for anti-corruption moves.
> 
> "When problems in cash flow or management are uncovered, discipline departments will step in to conduct further investigations," he said.
> 
> With the rollout of the country's high-speed rail network, the crackdown on corruption in the sector led to investigations of more than 10 railway officials last year.
> 
> The list includes Liu Zhijun, former railway minister, who was removed from his post in early 2011 for "serious disciplinary violations".


[email protected]


----------



## gdolniak

*Photos: Luxurious bullet train – corruption enabled by government procurement*

Photos: Luxurious bullet train – corruption enabled by government procurement
http://www.ministryoftofu.com/2012/...fublog+(Ministry+of+Tofu+-+Featured+Articles)










The devil is in the details; extravagance is in the details of a bullet train. 1,125-yuan toilet paper holder, 2,294-yuan foot-rest, flush toilet priced at nearly 100,000 yuan…An investigation report by New Century Weekly has unveiled overpriced parts one after another, and a bullet train that costs money like dirt. Behind these are “gray” budget and expenditure that are not transparent due to lack of oversight.

(Note: CRH, short for China Railway High-speed, is the designation for high-speed trains running on China’s rail system. Various train models are differentiated by sub-designations, running from CRH-1 through CRH-5.)










The chair for VIPs in CRH380 series is priced at 160,000 yuan (US$25,000) each. The exclusive supplier is a Shanghai-based company called Yuan Tong. Even in the eyes of insiders at the manufacturing companies, the enigmatic Shanghai-based company shrouded in secrecy must “have underground and reliable connections.”










On a CRH-2 bullet train, the price of a pair of armchairs and their amenities is as high as 40,000 yuan (US$6,250). The monopoly supplier is Shanghai Tanda. According to Caixin Magazine, other manufacturers of the same products quoted a price about one third lower than Tanda and Yuantong. Another company that specializes in assembling parts for bullet trains said that the small table for two priced at 14,000 yuan (US$2,187) only costs at most 9,000 yuan (US$1,400). In 2008, Zhang Shuguang, then deputy chief engineer of Ministry of Railways, announced in a conference that Tanda is the sole manufacturer of all chairs in the first- and second-class coaches of all CRH bullet trains.










A single-seat armchair in the first-class coach is priced at 22,014 yuan (US$3,430). The armrest alone is priced at 3,425 yuan (US$535). Caixin Magazine reporter managed to obtain a list of suppliers for CRH2 bullet trains against all odds, which finally unraveled the mystery of such outrageous monopolies and absurd pricing.










The mesh seat pocket: 90 yuan (US$14).










Footrest: 2,294 yuan (US$358).










Qingdao-based company Chenguang has maintained the monopoly on the supply of liquid crystal displays for CRH2 trains. It sells its 15-inch LCD at 13,472.99 yuan (US$2,105), whereas the highest retail price on the market is only 7,000 yuan (US$1,093). Other manufacturers of LCD are startled, “The profit margin must have been 100%.” According to local suppliers in Qingdao, Chenguang is also a mysterious company. On the Internet, no information can be found about the company, except that its owner Zhang Chenguang is engaged in charity work. “Chenguang is a trading company. It does not engage in manufacturing,” said a supplier to high-speed trains who met the owner of Chenguang.










LED ceiling lights are procured at 6,669.99 yuan ($1,042), whereas the retail price in the market is only 4,200 yuan (US$656).










The 12-watt reading light is procured at 1,416 yuan (US$221) apiece. However, the highest-end product on the market is sold at 500 to 600 yuan (US$78 – 93) apiece.










The lavatory has the highest profit margin among all bullet train amenities. According to Caixin Magazine, on the procurement list of CRH2 train, a marble bathroom countertop is procured at 26,000 yuan (US$4,062), whereas the retail price on the market for the same marble countertop is 3,100 yuan (US$484) per meter. Bathroom countertops used by the bullet trains seldom exceed 2 meters in length.










Motion-activated faucet is procured at 12,800 yuan (US$2,000). A sales representative for a Swiss brand said its most expensive faucet is only 7,000 yuan, and faucet manufactured by a Ningbo company is only priced at around 3,000 yuan (US$468).










Recessed toilet paper holder: 1,125 yuan (US$178).










The flush toilet is a German brand and procured at 95,047 yuan (US$14,851). A toilet supplier explained that flush toilet on board a train is different from regular ones in that it incorporates vacuum and disposal system. But even if this is true, the 95,000 yuan price is still unbelievable. One detail merits attention: Wang Xing, wife of Zhang Shuguang who worked at the deputy chief engineer of the Railways Ministry, is the most avid broker of the bathroom items. She even presided over the establishment of joint-ventures between several international manufactures of bathroom items with domestic companies.










Expenditure on a lavatory in CRH2 trains exceeds 300,000 yuan (US$46,875), whereas that of a lavatory on CRH 3 trains is even more outrageous: 1.2 million yuan.










In addition to common parts aforementioned that are palpable to ordinary people, other more technological parts are similarly overpriced. All these have contributed to the making of a bullet train that costs taxpayers 140 million yuan (US$21.9 million).


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Northridge said:


> I read somewhere that the SHA-PEK HSR line has a capacity of 200.000 persons a day. Is this right, and what is it based on?
> 
> I think it seems a little bit to high. 76 trains a day, ca 1000 people per train, and it's not far off, but still.
> I'm drunk, sorry..


Tokaido Shinkansen has capacity of nearly 190 000 persons a day. From the timetable, I counted 143 trains a day arriving at Nagoya from the direction of Tokyo, and each single train has 1323 seats.
How big are the 16 car trains of China?


----------



## hmmwv

Northridge said:


> I read somewhere that the SHA-PEK HSR line has a capacity of 200.000 persons a day. Is this right, and what is it based on?
> 
> I think it seems a little bit to high. 76 trains a day, ca 1000 people per train, and it's not far off, but still.
> I'm drunk, sorry..


I think that figure is the total capacity, which means both ways. They run over 70 pairs per day, the 380BL/ALs have a 1600 seat capacity. Considering not all trains on the timetable are 16 car sets that give a rough figure of 100,000 people each way.


----------



## hmmwv

New Wuhan-Guangzhou and Guangzhou-Shenzhen HSR timetable announced, including direct Wuhan-Shenzhen trains.

http://www.agile-news.com/news-9295...lementation-of-the-new-operation-diagram.html

March 18 news (reporter Zhou Yu correspondent Zhongguang Wang Guangzhou Zeng Yong) reporter learned from the Guangzhou Railway Group, Wuhan-Guangzhou Guangzhou-Shenzhen, Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong high-speed rail segment (hereinafter referred to as the Guangzhou-Shenzhen high-speed rail) at zero, April 1, 2012 from the introduction of the new train operation diagram according to the new train operation diagram, the Wuhan-Guangzhou, the Guangzhou-Shenzhen high-speed rail were arranged in 108 pairs of EMU, Shenzhen North arranged 20 high-speed EMU through Changsha and Wuhan.

Two high-speed rail after the tune diagram arrangement 108 pairs of EMU

According to the Guangzhou Railway Group, April 1 introduction of the new train operation diagram, the Wuhan-Guangzhou, the Guangzhou-Shenzhen high-speed rail arrangement 108 pairs of EMU across the line between Wuhan-Guangzhou and Guangzhou-Shenzhen-EMU 20, Wuhan-Guangzhou The high-speed rail arrangement 60 pairs; the Guangzhou-Shenzhen high-speed rail arrangement 28 pairs.

The two high-speed rail to open line 102 pairs of speed of 300km / h high-speed EMU, namely: Shenzhen North, Wuhan ~ 10 pairs, trips to the 'G10' word at the beginning of, respectively, G1001 ~ G1006, G1011 ~ G1024, L Shanan ~ Shenzhen North right, trips to the beginning of the 'G60', respectively: G6001 ~ G6020, South, Guangzhou, Wuhan ~ 40 pairs, trips to the G11, 'at the beginning, namely: G1101 ~ G1180, long Shanan ~ Guangzhou, South 14 pairs, trips to the' G61 ' the beginning: G6101 ~ G6128, Shenzhen North, South ~ 28 pairs, trips to the G62, 'at the beginning, respectively: G6201 ~ G6262.

Shenzhen to the north, Wuhan direct high-speed EMU earliest trips for the G1012 times, departure time of 7:00 minutes to Wuhan Time 11:40 minutes, the latest trips for the G1024, the departure time of 18:01 minutes time to Wuhan for 22:48 minutes.

Shenzhen to the north, long Shanan direct high-speed EMU earliest trips for the G6002, the departure time of 8:00 minutes, to long Shanan time of 11:20 minutes, the latest trips for the G6020 times, departure time of 20:30 minutes, to long Shanan time of 23:48 minutes(http://www.agile-news.com/).

Wuhan to Shenzhen North through high-speed EMU earliest trips for the G1011 times, departure time of 7:26 minutes to Shenzhen North time of 12:16 minutes, the latest trips for the G1023 times, departure time of 17:25 minutes to Shenzhen North time of 22:20 minutes.

Changsha south to Shenzhen, north through the high-speed EMU earliest trips for the G6001 times, departure time of 7:00 minutes to Shenzhen North time of 10:21 minutes, the latest trips for the G6019, the departure time of 16:59 minutes, to Shenzhen North time is 20:21 minutes.

Get off at the convenience of visitors, all the through train to stop the capital of the station, the capital of the station dwell time of 2 to 3 minutes, two minutes of other stations, compared to the previous relatively prolonged.

Two iron daily, weekend, the peak of the CDB on the number of trains

According to the Guangzhou Railway Group, the tune diagram points daily, weekend and peak period were the CDB different number of trains, specifically as follows:

Daily open line 81 pairs, of which Wuhan ~ Shenzhen North 10, Wuhan - Guangzhou South 35 pairs of long Shanan ~ Shenzhen North 10 pairs of, long Shanan ~ Guangzhou South 10 right, Guangzhou South ~ Shenzhen North 16 for the weekend to open the line 86 pairs, in open on a daily basis long Shanan ~ Guangzhou, south peak period passenger to schedule the opening line the number of daily Monday to Thursday, weekends from Friday to Sunday, the peak of the spring Shuyun, Golden Week, a small holiday .


----------



## Silver Swordsman

gdolniak said:


> Photos: Luxurious bullet train – corruption enabled by government procurement
> http://www.ministryoftofu.com/2012/...fublog+(Ministry+of+Tofu+-+Featured+Articles)
> 
> The devil is in the details; extravagance is in the details of a bullet train. 1,125-yuan toilet paper holder, 2,294-yuan foot-rest, flush toilet priced at nearly 100,000 yuan…An investigation report by New Century Weekly has unveiled overpriced parts one after another, and a bullet train that costs money like dirt. Behind these are “gray” budget and expenditure that are not transparent due to lack of oversight.
> 
> (Note: CRH, short for China Railway High-speed, is the designation for high-speed trains running on China’s rail system. Various train models are differentiated by sub-designations, running from CRH-1 through CRH-5.)
> 
> The chair for VIPs in CRH380 series is priced at 160,000 yuan (US$25,000) each. The exclusive supplier is a Shanghai-based company called Yuan Tong. Even in the eyes of insiders at the manufacturing companies, the enigmatic Shanghai-based company shrouded in secrecy must “have underground and reliable connections.”
> 
> On a CRH-2 bullet train, the price of a pair of armchairs and their amenities is as high as 40,000 yuan (US$6,250). The monopoly supplier is Shanghai Tanda. According to Caixin Magazine, other manufacturers of the same products quoted a price about one third lower than Tanda and Yuantong. Another company that specializes in assembling parts for bullet trains said that the small table for two priced at 14,000 yuan (US$2,187) only costs at most 9,000 yuan (US$1,400). In 2008, Zhang Shuguang, then deputy chief engineer of Ministry of Railways, announced in a conference that Tanda is the sole manufacturer of all chairs in the first- and second-class coaches of all CRH bullet trains.
> 
> A single-seat armchair in the first-class coach is priced at 22,014 yuan (US$3,430). The armrest alone is priced at 3,425 yuan (US$535). Caixin Magazine reporter managed to obtain a list of suppliers for CRH2 bullet trains against all odds, which finally unraveled the mystery of such outrageous monopolies and absurd pricing.
> 
> The mesh seat pocket: 90 yuan (US$14).
> 
> Footrest: 2,294 yuan (US$358).
> 
> Qingdao-based company Chenguang has maintained the monopoly on the supply of liquid crystal displays for CRH2 trains. It sells its 15-inch LCD at 13,472.99 yuan (US$2,105), whereas the highest retail price on the market is only 7,000 yuan (US$1,093). Other manufacturers of LCD are startled, “The profit margin must have been 100%.” According to local suppliers in Qingdao, Chenguang is also a mysterious company. On the Internet, no information can be found about the company, except that its owner Zhang Chenguang is engaged in charity work. “Chenguang is a trading company. It does not engage in manufacturing,” said a supplier to high-speed trains who met the owner of Chenguang.
> 
> LED ceiling lights are procured at 6,669.99 yuan ($1,042), whereas the retail price in the market is only 4,200 yuan (US$656).
> 
> The 12-watt reading light is procured at 1,416 yuan (US$221) apiece. However, the highest-end product on the market is sold at 500 to 600 yuan (US$78 – 93) apiece.
> 
> The lavatory has the highest profit margin among all bullet train amenities. According to Caixin Magazine, on the procurement list of CRH2 train, a marble bathroom countertop is procured at 26,000 yuan (US$4,062), whereas the retail price on the market for the same marble countertop is 3,100 yuan (US$484) per meter. Bathroom countertops used by the bullet trains seldom exceed 2 meters in length.
> 
> Motion-activated faucet is procured at 12,800 yuan (US$2,000). A sales representative for a Swiss brand said its most expensive faucet is only 7,000 yuan, and faucet manufactured by a Ningbo company is only priced at around 3,000 yuan (US$468).
> 
> Recessed toilet paper holder: 1,125 yuan (US$178).
> 
> The flush toilet is a German brand and procured at 95,047 yuan (US$14,851). A toilet supplier explained that flush toilet on board a train is different from regular ones in that it incorporates vacuum and disposal system. But even if this is true, the 95,000 yuan price is still unbelievable. One detail merits attention: Wang Xing, wife of Zhang Shuguang who worked at the deputy chief engineer of the Railways Ministry, is the most avid broker of the bathroom items. She even presided over the establishment of joint-ventures between several international manufactures of bathroom items with domestic companies.
> 
> Expenditure on a lavatory in CRH2 trains exceeds 300,000 yuan (US$46,875), whereas that of a lavatory on CRH 3 trains is even more outrageous: 1.2 million yuan.
> 
> In addition to common parts aforementioned that are palpable to ordinary people, other more technological parts are similarly overpriced. All these have contributed to the making of a bullet train that costs taxpayers 140 million yuan (US$21.9 million).


Dang, that is some serious corruption... So why were such outlandish contracts used, out of pure oversight? Or was it due to "favors" from internal trading?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

agile-news.com seems remarkably illegible.

Have the tests of Wuhan-Zhengzhou high speed railway started?

If China were to find cheaper CRH trains to buy, the schedules might be made denser. How many trains could Shanghai-Nanjing actually run before it is the line which gets full?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> agile-news.com seems remarkably illegible.
> 
> Have the tests of Wuhan-Zhengzhou high speed railway started?
> 
> If China were to find cheaper CRH trains to buy, the schedules might be made denser. How many trains could Shanghai-Nanjing actually run before it is the line which gets full?


Agile-news is pretty much just a Google translate service so it's pretty rough. There hasn't been any news about the test on Wuhan-Zhengzhou section, but so far opening is still scheduled for July. I think the Shanghai-Nanjing ICL has a lot of potential as far as frequency goes, unlike the Shanghai-Nanjing railway this section is dedicated HSR so I'd imagine they can push it to about 100 pairs per day if there is a need.


----------



## khoojyh

May be out of topic but i am really think I should ask this in here. 

Shanghai–Hangzhou Maglev Line, you guys still remember? It's cancelled or ?


----------



## Silly_Walks

khoojyh said:


> May be out of topic but i am really think I should ask this in here.
> 
> Shanghai–Hangzhou Maglev Line, you guys still remember? It's cancelled or ?


Indefinitely postponed. Because of high costs and minimal improvement in travel time, it is highly unlikely it will be built.

I think if anything is going to be built, it will have to wait for cheaper, Chinese technology where they don't have to spend so much money on the foreign technology, and will be an extension from the current line on to the Center, then on to Hongqiao.


----------



## Arnorian

Anything official on extending the maglev line to Hongqiao?


----------



## Silly_Walks

Arnorian said:


> Anything official on extending the maglev line to Hongqiao?


I think the last thing built was the platform area for Maglevs at Hongqiao... after that i've heard nothing.


----------



## UD2

^^

I would like to point out that the cost per train set in China is generally on par to those in other countries. And also the fact that the total cost of high-speed rail construction in China is by far one of the lowest in the world.


----------



## Silly_Walks

UD2 said:


> ^^
> 
> I would like to point out that the cost per train set in China is generally on par to those in other countries. And also the fact that the total cost of high-speed rail construction in China is by far one of the lowest in the world.


Ok, but what's your point?


----------



## Fan Railer

chornedsnorkack said:


> Tokaido Shinkansen has capacity of nearly 190 000 persons a day. From the timetable, I counted 143 trains a day arriving at Nagoya from the direction of Tokyo, and each single train has 1323 seats.
> How big are the 16 car trains of China?


Closer to the ballpark of 1000-1100 people.


----------



## big-dog

Silly_Walks said:


> Indefinitely postponed. Because of high costs and minimal improvement in travel time, it is highly unlikely it will be built.
> 
> I think if anything is going to be built, it will have to wait for cheaper, Chinese technology where they don't have to spend so much money on the foreign technology, and will be an extension from the current line on to the Center, then on to Hongqiao.


I agree with the cost concern but I still hope the inter-airport Maglev to be built and I believe the extension will dramatically increase the passenger volume and operational revenue.

I live in Pudong area. It's inconvenient everytime I need to fly from Hongqiao airport, and vice versa for the residents in Puxi to take flight at Pudong airport. It's time sensitive for flight catching so I rarely take subway to airports even though Line 2 connects the 2 airports.

So it'll be so nice if Maglev can connects the 2 airports directly, a stop at city center would definitely add more value to it though its a nice-to-have feature only.


----------



## Silly_Walks

big-dog said:


> I live in Pudong area. It's inconvenient everytime I need to fly from Hongqiao airport, and vice versa for the residents in Puxi to take flight at Pudong airport. It's time sensitive for flight catching so I rarely take subway to airports even though Line 2 connects the 2 airports.
> 
> So it'll be so nice if Maglev can connects the 2 airports directly, a stop at city center would definitely add more value to it though its a nice-to-have feature only.


Yeah, I completely agree. Line 2 was pretty horrible when I had to catch a flight from Pudong, but I had to come from almost Hongqiao. And besides, Line 2 isn't actually one line connecting the two airports. It's secretly 2 lines, meaning you have to change trains... but don't tell anyone


----------



## drunkenmunkey888

Silly_Walks said:


> Yeah, I completely agree. Line 2 was pretty horrible when I had to catch a flight from Pudong, but I had to come from almost Hongqiao. And besides, Line 2 isn't actually one line connecting the two airports. It's secretly 2 lines, meaning you have to change trains... but don't tell anyone


They definitely need a supplementary express line for Line 2. Same goes for Line 1 and 3.


----------



## hmmwv

The problem is that a maglev line from Longyang Rd to Hongqiao will ultimately go through city center, so there will be a lot of people complaining about the alleged health hazard associated with maglev trains.


----------



## Arnorian

I can't see a way for the maglev line to be extended pass the Longyang Road station. There are buildings directly in the way and no room along the Inner Ring Elevated Road.


----------



## hmmwv

No, there is no way to extend the line in its current configuration, even if the station does have room on the other end of the platform for extension. If a connection line is to be built it'll have to be situated south of the current line, probably branch off the current line before Longyang Rd to save cost, but avoid the busiest part of the city and cut through between Xuhui and Minhang district.


----------



## big-dog

hmmwv said:


> The problem is that a maglev line from Longyang Rd to Hongqiao will ultimately go through city center, so there will be a lot of people complaining about the alleged health hazard associated with maglev trains.


yes. they may have to dig tunnels like when they built all the underground subways.


----------



## phoenixboi08

I think it'd be fast and cheaper to build an alternative line going south towards Disney Land, then the South Railway Station and stopping somewhere a little north of that...(there are about 10 more metro lines planned, so...).


----------



## hmmwv

big-dog said:


> yes. they may have to dig tunnels like when they built all the underground subways.


If they are gonna dig a tunnel they'd better make it a reduced air pressure one but it'll be insanely expensive as everything will have to be air tight. I don't see how it's possible to have the train run entirely underground at over 400km/h. The pressure in front of the train and the vacuum pulled behind it will put a lot of stress on the tunnel and the stations in between.



phoenixboi08 said:


> I think it'd be fast and cheaper to build an alternative line going south towards Disney Land, then the South Railway Station and stopping somewhere a little north of that...(there are about 10 more metro lines planned, so...).


It's a good idea to have a stop at Shanghai Disneyland, although they are planning on a subway line branched off Line 2 for the theme park it's still going to be very slow to move people there. However we want to be careful of adding to many stations though, that probably will result in a much reduced top speed as the train won't have enough time to accelerate.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> If they are gonna dig a tunnel they'd better make it a reduced air pressure one but it'll be insanely expensive as everything will have to be air tight. I don't see how it's possible to have the train run entirely underground at over 400km/h. The pressure in front of the train and the vacuum pulled behind it will put a lot of stress on the tunnel and the stations in between.


What is the top speed of Guangzhou-Shenzhen high speed trains in Shizimen tunnel?


----------



## phoenixboi08

hmmwv said:


> If they are gonna dig a tunnel they'd better make it a reduced air pressure one but it'll be insanely expensive as everything will have to be air tight. I don't see how it's possible to have the train run entirely underground at over 400km/h. The pressure in front of the train and the vacuum pulled behind it will put a lot of stress on the tunnel and the stations in between.
> 
> It's a good idea to have a stop at Shanghai Disneyland, although they are planning on a subway line branched off Line 2 for the theme park it's still going to be very slow to move people there. However we want to be careful of adding to many stations though, that probably will result in a much reduced top speed as the train won't have enough time to accelerate.


Well, I only say that because I know they are working to allow for special visa free travel for visitors to the Disney Park, thus it would make sense to have some kind of direct link there...
If you look at the metro plan from 2007, when they were planning the line to extend to Hangzhou, you'll see that they did intend for the line to extend past Longyang to Shanghai South Station then branch south to Hangzhou (not happening at this point) and north to Hongqiao. I think the northern line is still very much viable (and necessary) they just need to get the alignment correct. 
A stop at Disney seems necessary for the commercial viability of the [extended] line.


----------



## big-dog

hmmwv said:


> If they are gonna dig a tunnel they'd better make it a reduced air pressure one but it'll be insanely expensive as everything will have to be air tight. I don't see how it's possible to have the train run entirely underground at over 400km/h. The pressure in front of the train and the vacuum pulled behind it will put a lot of stress on the tunnel and the stations in between.


you have a good point. But it isn't necessarily made an all tunnel route. It doesn't make too much time difference if the city center section (say 15km) is underground with a reduced speed of 100kmph.


----------



## foxmulder

Trains are right now going at 300km/h in many tunnels in China albeit they are much shorter tunnels. Japanese maglev line, eventually, will be mostly underground. Don't think it is a huge problem. It may need to be a larger one with more detailed/careful venting design but still doable imho.


----------



## krnboy1009

Can Maglev go underground? How the hell does that work? I have never seen Maglev underground.


----------



## Silly_Walks

krnboy1009 said:


> Can Maglev go underground? How the hell does that work? I have never seen Maglev underground.


What is the problem?


Imagine a Maglev track. Imagine that Maglev track surrounded by a big concrete tube. Imagine that tube being underground.

What's the problem?


----------



## Sopomon

krnboy1009 said:


> Can Maglev go underground? How the hell does that work? I have never seen Maglev underground.


Linimo would like to have a word with you...


----------



## krnboy1009

Silly_Walks said:


> What is the problem?
> 
> 
> Imagine a Maglev track. Imagine that Maglev track surrounded by a big concrete tube. Imagine that tube being underground.
> 
> What's the problem?


I have never seen it done. 

If Maglevs cant change grades like ordinary trains can right? Still not completely familiar with Maglev concept.

Any pictures of maglev running underground?


----------



## Silly_Walks

krnboy1009 said:


> I have never seen it done.
> 
> If Maglevs cant change grades like ordinary trains can right? Still not completely familiar with Maglev concept.
> 
> Any pictures of maglev running underground?


The Shanghai maglev is just a fancy, floating monorail... look for pictures of underground monorails and you'll have an idea.


Or like this:








Source: Wikipedia

See, the maglev goes in a "tunnel".


What's the problem??????


----------



## phoenixboi08

Silly_Walks said:


> The Shanghai maglev is just a fancy, floating monorail... look for pictures of underground monorails and you'll have an idea.
> 
> Or like this:
> 
> Source: Wikipedia
> 
> See, the maglev goes in a "tunnel".
> 
> What's the problem??????


I think he's wondering about the train shifting from an elevated track down into a tunnel...


----------



## Silly_Walks

phoenixboi08 said:


> I think he's wondering about the train shifting from an elevated track down into a tunnel...


I still don't see the problem. There are tons of metros that go from elevated track to tunnel. Just from the top of my head I know of one in Shanghai, one in Amsterdam (Amstel -> Wibautstraat) and one in Rotterdam.
A 1 second google search gave me this picture from Paris:









source: http://www.flickr.com/photos/spag85/3520224918/


----------



## hmmwv

foxmulder said:


> Nice news... There will be G trains, too, right?


I don't think so, the new service is on upgraded conventional lines so most likely to be limited to 200-250km/h, so no G trains. Once the Beijing-Wuhan HSR opens then G trains will run on that route via Xi'an-Zhengzhou HSR.


----------



## big-dog

*3.31.2012 my trip Shanghai-Cangzhou taking G156 (G156 Shanghai-Beijing) HSR*

Shanghai Hongqiao - Cangzhou West: 1108km, 4 hours 30 minutes

During most of the travel time except approaching stops, the train speed maintains at 310km/h.

Taking line 10 to Hongqiao station









Arriving Hongqiao station, getting out to departure level









From B1 to 3rd level (Departure)









in waiting hall


















upper level for food and shopping









seats









inquiry









escalator in the glass room to platforms









down to platforms









high speed train









2nd class - Yuan 475 ($78) for the trip (1108km)










About 80% full most time of the trip, it's very smooth running at 310km/h, stopped at Kunshan->Nanjing->Xuzhou->Qufu->Cangzhou









arriving Cangzhou west after 4.5 hours


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Dalian-Harbin*

Has Dalian-Shenyang-Harbin high speed railway started test runs?


----------



## Geography

Great pictures Big Dog. We really appreciate them.

You were traveling along the Beijing-Shanghai HSR line, but only part of the way. Did you have to buy a ticket for the full distance, or a cheaper ticket for your specific? If you bought the cheaper ticket, what is to prevent someone from ripping off CSR by buying a cheaper ticket for a partial route, then taking the train the full distance?


----------



## hkskyline

*High-speed trains initiate two-city life*
2012-April-2 08:53 
Shenzhen Daily

EVERY year Li Yunfang, a resident of Futian CBD, has driven to her hometown of Changsha in Hunan Province for Tomb-sweeping Day. But this year, she and her husband will travel home by high-speed train.

Though spending 1,500 yuan (US$238) on gasoline for a single trip is not a problem, taking the high-speed train is preferable in terms of speed and affordability, Li, a business woman, said in an interview yesterday, before the departure of the first high-speed train from Shenzhen to Wuhan at Shenzhen North Railway Station.

The train G1012 left at 7 a.m. and arrived in Wuhan at 11:50 a.m. Liu Yun, a native of Huanggang in Hubei Province who had worked in Shenzhen for more than 10 years, expressed excitement about the new train.

“It takes no more than five hours to travel 1,171 kilometers between Shenzhen and Wuhan, capital of Hubei. I feel my home is closer to me,” said Liu.

Li Lei, a native of Wuhan, bought a ticket a week ago. “I can now realistically expect to regularly make weekend visits to my parents and taste my mother’s cooking,” Li said. Li’s girlfriend is in Hubei. Before, they could meet only once every six months when discounted air fares were available. “High-speed rail has made me more mobile,” Li said.

Liu Guangfu, the public relations official of Shenzhen North Railway Station, estimated around 80,000 passengers will be handled between April 1-4.

Among the passengers, some of them plan to go sightseeing and sakura watching in Wuhan, where 40 percent discounts will be offered to visitors with high-speed train tickets in April. According to travel agencies in Wuhan, the number of travelers from Shenzhen, Dongguan and Guangzhou to see sakura is increasing.

The occupancy rate of four to five-star hotels near Wuhan University, Donghu Lake has increased by 20 percent. The rate of economy hotels had reached 95 percent. Shenzhen transport commission extended night bus operation to 10:20 p.m. yesterday for the opening of the high-speed rail.

The bus routes at Shenzhen North Railway Station include M299, M300, M352, M353, M354, M365, B666, B667 and B742. It also required bus companies to arrange 10 buses near the railway station as standby to handle a possible rush of passengers during holidays.


----------



## Geography

>


In the foreground of this picture, it appears there is a gate holding back the line ahead of the security check point. Why is that?


----------



## big-dog

Geography said:


> Great pictures Big Dog. We really appreciate them.
> 
> You were traveling along the Beijing-Shanghai HSR line, but only part of the way. Did you have to buy a ticket for the full distance, or a cheaper ticket for your specific? If you bought the cheaper ticket, what is to prevent someone from ripping off CSR by buying a cheaper ticket for a partial route, then taking the train the full distance?


Thanks Geo. I only need to buy the tickets for my travel section (Shanghai-Cangzhou). If someone is cheating by doing that, he wont get himself out of the station ( need magnet ticket to get out).

I also noticed most people on my train are not traveling from start to end, seats are re-usable, i.e. when people leaves, new on-boarders could have the same seat no.



> In the foreground of this picture, it appears there is a gate holding back the line ahead of the security check point. Why is that?


I guess it's to prevent from too many people jammed in the security check area, which is applied the same in some airports.


----------



## foxmulder

hmmwv said:


> I don't think so, the new service is on upgraded conventional lines so most likely to be limited to 200-250km/h, so no G trains. Once the Beijing-Wuhan HSR opens then G trains will run on that route via Xi'an-Zhengzhou HSR.


Oh, I see. I thought this was already the new line.


----------



## Woonsocket54

Geography said:


> You were traveling along the Beijing-Shanghai HSR line, but only part of the way. Did you have to buy a ticket for the full distance, or a cheaper ticket for your specific? If you bought the cheaper ticket, what is to prevent someone from ripping off CSR by buying a cheaper ticket for a partial route, then taking the train the full distance?


um, seriously? :bash:


----------



## hmmwv

Well looking at that picture I guess no one is saying Hongqiao, or any other new HSR station is too large now.


----------



## NCT

hmmwv said:


> Well looking at that picture I guess no one is saying Hongqiao, or any other new HSR station is too large now.


The platforms are practically empty all the time.


----------



## Pansori

NCT said:


> The platforms are practically empty all the time.


Isn't that because passengers are only allowed onto platforms just a few minutes prior to departure of their train?


----------



## big-dog

^^ I'm allowed to enter platform around 20 minutes ahead of the departure. Good enough to board and be seated, but not enough time to take a lot of photos of other trains on the platform.


----------



## Woonsocket54

How many direct round-trips per day between Shenzhen and Wuhan?


----------



## big-dog

Woonsocket54 said:


> How many direct round-trips per day between Shenzhen and Wuhan?


10 pairs.

Price: Class I - 840 Yuan; Class II - 540 Yuan

Wuhan-Shezhen train time:


----------



## hmmwv

NCT said:


> The platforms are practically empty all the time.


That's the way it suppose to be, passengers only on the platform when there is a departure, a crowded platform is a mismanaged platform.



big-dog said:


> ^^ I'm allowed to enter platform around 20 minutes ahead of the departure. Good enough to board and be seated, but not enough time to take a lot of photos of other trains on the platform.


I assume the rather generous time is because Hongqiao is the terminal station for your train, right? When I ride from Nanjing to Shanghai via a Beijing-Shanghai train I was only allowed to be on the platform about 10 minutes before the train arrives.


----------



## NCT

hmmwv said:


> That's the way it suppose to be, passengers only on the platform when there is a departure, a crowded platform is a mismanaged platform.


It's a waste of valuable space. Having two sets of space (waiting hall and platforms) but only one fully occupied at any time is just silly. Even allowing platform-access without time constraints, the platforms would still be nowhere near as crowded as a typical metro platform, and the need for the waiting hall would be vastly diminished.


----------



## Sopomon

NCT said:


> It's a waste of valuable space. Having two sets of space (waiting hall and platforms) but only one fully occupied at any time is just silly. Even allowing platform-access without time constraints, the platforms would still be nowhere near as crowded as a typical metro platform, and the need for the waiting hall would be vastly diminished.


Yeah, but then there wouldn't be such a need for such grandiose stations if they planned them to work like any other. :lol:

Then again, Chunyun etc, might get people flooding the platforms and falling off if there wasn't a waiting room. I don't really know, I'm just speculating.


----------



## foxmulder

hmmwv said:


> Well looking at that picture I guess no one is saying Hongqiao, or any other new HSR station is too large now.


----------



## stoneybee

foxmulder said:


>


Right on! Brother, Right On!

Can't convince them all :nuts:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

How usable is the Wuhan Station, and how does it connect to low speed Wuhan metro lines, Wuhan-Xianning Metropolis Intercity Railway, Wuhan-Yichang High Speed Railway and Wuhan-Zhengzhou High Speed Railway?


----------



## NCT

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> I really like that the stations are almost as nice as airports with a high ceiling and open spaces so that it doesn't feel to crowded. I love how airport as they are designed to give a good impression and welcome to the city/country. It gives a grande and clean image. I remember when I arrived at Heathrow Airport in London and I got shocked how run-downed it was, it felt that I had arrived in a basement. Maybe because it was built in the 1950s, now China builds its infrastructure in the 21th century and isn't repeating the mistakes made in the past by other countries. China knows what it's doing. China applies the airport feeling with excellent design and comfort into its railports that no other countries has done. I also like that how the procedures are like the ones in an airport like check-in and waiting hall.


Missing the point entirely. The average traveller don't give an iota of a damn about grandeur - they just want to get out of there as quickly as possible. Your typical punter isn't going to be a tourist, but someone who makes their journey quite regularly. Walking on shiny marble for 10 minutes then sitting on some cold, hard metal chair might be a novelty for the first time, but after 5 times of doing it one would be utterly sick of doing it. 

The whole point of developing high-speed railway is that it _isn't_ aviation, that it _doesn't_ involve cumbersome access journeys or entry procedures. Raw speed on the railway is still substantially lower than aviation, but that's made up by the (theoretically) turn-up-and-go nature. Now how does the removal of a _major_ selling point make any sense at all?



VECTROTALENZIS said:


> Could you develop this statement some more?


Well, everything needs to be 'big' is a start, and there's definitely a surge of individual materialism as well as an incredible level of irrationality. The politics is lurching dangerously towards the right as well. Let's leave it at that lest we derail the thread further.


----------



## big-dog

Silver Swordsman said:


> I've stood just a 2-3 meters away from a 300 km/h train and felt no wind strong enough to knock me down.
> 
> Putting the wind aside, there isn't any danger of trains kicking up things and injuring bystanders simply because the train runs on ballastless slab track.
> 
> The only liability is people who want to commit suicide.


I never stand near the yellow line watching 300km/h trains passing so I might be wrong. But when my G141 stopped at Tengzhou station and adjacent HSR train passing by, I can feel the apparent shaking caused by the wind though I'm inside the train.



NCT said:


> You can only serve as many people as the number of platforms allow. There is still a vast oversupply of space compared to platform numbers. The waiting hall in the photo, large already, is only a fraction of the total space there.
> 
> Here are some photos I took in 2010 of other halls underneath the platforms.


I took similar photos in 2010 when the staion just opened and restaurant/sores were not yet opened. But now you can see more people in that area. Here're the photos I took last night around 8:30pm when I was trying to find a dinner place.

platform when I got off the train









restaurant searching - the other column has more people than this









almost all retaurants are full inside - I've seen more people at day time









What I want to complain is that I was trying to find a bar where I can have a beer and watch some football game - but I failed after searching all the eating places and end up settled in KFC


----------



## phoenixboi08

big-dog said:


> I never stand near the yellow line watching 300km/h trains passing so I might be wrong. But when my G141 stopped at Tengzhou station and adjacent HSR train passing by, I can feel the apparent shaking caused by the wind though I'm inside the train.
> 
> 
> What I want to complain is that I was trying to find a bar where I can have a beer and watch some football game - but I failed after searching all the eating places and end up settled in KFC


I always feel so....anxious in the Shanghai Zhan...it takes so long to get outside lol, and I can never find a restroom :cheers:


----------



## foxmulder

Traceparts said:


> from flickr chicagopig


Nice find, love this type of photos


----------



## :jax:

I could agree the stations are not very friendly for the elderly, huge distances to walk, and floors that are very slippery when (your feet are) wet.


----------



## big-dog

^^ I wonder where it was taken, must be a CRH depot.


----------



## hmmwv

big-dog said:


> ^^ I wonder where it was taken, must be a CRH depot.


Note the 25T and 25K type conventional cars in the background, I don't think it's one of the CRH technical centers. It could be the rail yard of a major station serving upgraded conventional line, such as Shanghai.


----------



## big-dog

*Bullet train stewardesses put on new uniforms*

Updated: 2012-04-05 06:39

(Xinhua)



> Stewardesses dressed in new uniforms wait for passengers to board a bullet train, which is bound for Nanjing, in East China's Shanghai municipality, April 4, 2012, the last day of the national public holiday around the Qingming Festival. According to the Shanghai Railway Bureau which manages the railways in East China's Shanghai, Jiangsu, Anhui and Zhejiang, stewardesses serving the region's high-speed trains will put on new, more casual uniforms during weekends and public holidays starting from April of 2012, as an alternative to the original non-holiday uniforms. [Photo/Xinhua]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stewardesses dressed in new uniforms pose for photos next to a bullet train, which is bound for Nanjing, in East China's Shanghai municipality, April 4, 2012, the last day of the national public holiday around the Qingming Festival. [Photo/Xinhua]


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Do the stewards also get new uniforms, keep their old uniforms or not exist at all?


----------



## big-dog

*gmp win first prize and commission for Hangzhou South Railway Station, China*



> Following their success in winning first prize in an international competition, the architects von Gerkan, Marg and Partners (gmp) have been commissioned to design the new southern railway station in Hangzhou. The project involves the conversion and extension of the station in the Xiao Shan district to the south of the Qiantang river; after the eastern and main railway stations it will be the third largest railway station of this metropolis.
> 
> The design reflects the local culture, with the station building picking up elements of traditional buildings in Hangzhou: the base plinth consists of grey granite, the main building’s white walls enclose the waiting room level which is framed by perforated vertical slats – a reference to the traditional Chinese window shutters.
> 
> Passengers enter the station through foyers to the east and west. The 200 meter long and 18 meter high wait- ing hall - with its free-spanning construction without columns and plentiful daylight - offers passengers easy orientation. It creates a light-flooded space and provides a unique experience for passengers upon their arrival and departure. There are escalators and lifts for passengers and visitors to descend to the total of seven platforms.
> 
> The Hangzhou South Railway Station is not the only railway station project by gmp Architects. In addition to the main railway station in Berlin, which is the largest interchange station in Europe, they have built the Tianjin West Railway Station which, following its completion in 2011, serves as a stop along the high-speed line between Beijing and Shanghai.
> 
> Competition 2011 – 1st prize
> Design Meinhard von Gerkan and Stephan Schütz with Stephan Rewolle Design team members Jiang Linlin, Zhang Yingying, Zhang Xiaoguang Client Ministry of Railways
> Gross floor area 90,000 m2
> Number of platforms 7
> Number of tracks 21
> Number of passengers/year from 2020 4.5 million
> Construction period 2012-2014


archinect.com


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Do the stewards also get new uniforms, keep their old uniforms or not exist at all?


This line in the news answers your question:
"stewardesses serving the region's high-speed trains will put on new, more casual uniforms during weekends and public holidays starting from April of 2012, as an alternative to the original non-holiday uniforms."


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> This line in the news answers your question:
> "stewardesses serving the region's high-speed trains will put on new, more casual uniforms during weekends and public holidays starting from April of 2012, as an alternative to the original non-holiday uniforms."



No, it does not. The news speaks about stewardesses only, and does not mention stewards.

Thus inspiring my question:

Do stewards not exist in the first place, keep their old uniforms, or also get new uniforms?


----------



## Pansori

Who cares about stewards.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> No, it does not. The news speaks about stewardesses only, and does not mention stewards.
> 
> Thus inspiring my question:
> 
> Do stewards not exist in the first place, keep their old uniforms, or also get new uniforms?


Ha, I see, you were asking about the guys, I don't think I've seen any as a matter of fact, everyone from the janitor to the conductor have been girls. The MOR has figured out that disgruntled passengers are less likely to confront pretty girls.


----------



## Silly_Walks

hmmwv said:


> The MOR has figured out that disgruntled passengers are less likely to confront pretty girls.


Another reason to suspect the MOR of being complete geniuses :banana:


----------



## Geography

>


Despite the rendering, this does not look like a pedestrian friendly train station. Look at the long distances pedestrians have to walk. Where are they walking from, a parking lot or bus stop 200 meters away? Why not have buses drop people off right at the entrance? Who is going to be walking around a vast cement plaza far from the center of town?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Geography said:


> Despite the rendering, this does not look like a pedestrian friendly train station. Look at the long distances pedestrians have to walk. Where are they walking from, a parking lot or bus stop 200 meters away? Why not have buses drop people off right at the entrance?


From the plan, there are 2 "bus stations" around the station, on both sides on the corner just behind the trees on the right edge of the picture, and also one "coach station". What is the difference?

Also, which trolleybus lines of Hangzhou shall serve Hangzhou South railway station?


----------



## zergcerebrates

Ah, awesome. China is still moving ahead with its major highspeed rail developments.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> From the plan, there are 2 "bus stations" around the station, on both sides on the corner just behind the trees on the right edge of the picture, and also one "coach station". What is the difference?
> 
> Also, which trolleybus lines of Hangzhou shall serve Hangzhou South railway station?


Coach station means long distance buses.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Hangzhou rails*

Now, trying to figure out the rails of Hangzhou.

4 high speed railways and at least 3 low speed railways, right? Plus metro.

Existing Shanghai-Hangzhou High Speed Railway:
from Yuhang South Station branches. One branch goes to Hangzhou East, the other to Hangzhou Station.

Nanjing-Hangzhou High Speed Railway, under construction, shall open in a known month late in 2012:
approaching Hangzhou, passes Deqi and Yuhang Stations, and terminates in Hangzhou East Station.

Hangzhou-Ningbo High Speed Railway, under construction, shall open in a known month late in 2012:
starting Hangzhou East, passes Hangzhou South and next station is Shaoxingkeqiao

Hangzhou-Changsha High Speed Railway - is it under construction, or delayed?
"starting" Hangzhou East, follows Hangzhou-Ningbo High Speed Railway to Hangzhou South;
from Hangzhou South, branches out and next station is Zhuji

Shanghai-Hangzhou Low Speed Railway:
passing Hangzhou East shared with 3 high speed railways goes to Hangzhou station shared with 1 branch of high speed railway

Hangzhou-Zhuzhou Low Speed Railway:
from Hangzhou Station goes to Hangzhou South shared with 3 high speed railways, and there meets "Xiaoyong Railway". Reaches Zhuji Station shared with Hangzhou-Changsha High Speed Railway.

What is "Xiaoyong Railway"?

Now regarding metro:
which lines shall exist in Hangzhou, and which railway stations shall they serve?

Does anyone have a map to illustrate the lines and stations?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Hangzhou-Changsha High Speed Railway - is it under construction, or delayed?
> "starting" Hangzhou East, follows Hangzhou-Ningbo High Speed Railway to Hangzhou South;
> from Hangzhou South, branches out and next station is Zhuji
> 
> What is "Xiaoyong Railway"?


Hangzhou-Changsha PDL is still under construction, latest news in late March indicated viaduct girders are being installed at the Jinhua, Zhejiang section. The whole 920km line is on schedule to be opened in 2014. 

Xiaoyong Railway is the conventional railway between Hangzhou (Xiaoshan) and Ningbo South.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Shanghai-Hangzhou, Hangzhou-Ningbo and Hangzhou-Changsha high speed railways are all parallel to existing low speed railways.

Is it correct that there is no low speed railway between Hangzhou and Nanjing?

Until this autumn, Hangzhou has a single high speed railway (from Shanghai) and no metro. By the end of the Dragon Year, though, Hangzhou is due to have 3 high speed railways and metro. So what shall the network be like?

Hangzhou South railway station is now the branching point of Hangzhou-Zhuzhou and Hangzhou-Ningbo low speed railways, and shall be on Hangzhou-Ningbo high speed railway from late 2012. However, the construction of the station shall continue till 2014. Shall it be arranged without hindering traffic?


----------



## skyridgeline

hmmwv said:


> Ha, I see, you were asking about the guys, I don't think I've seen any as a matter of fact, *everyone from the janitor to the conductor have been girls*. The MOR has figured out that disgruntled passengers are less likely to confront pretty girls.



_*Dalian's tram* has one of the exceptional feature that all staffs are female, i.e. – driver, conductor, points man — even the depot manager!_

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_Dalian


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is it correct that there is no low speed railway between Hangzhou and Nanjing?


That's right, there is no direct conventional railway between Nanjing and Hangzhou. In the past all express passenger traffic go through Shanghai, and freight traffic go through Xuancheng, Anhui.


----------



## Woonsocket54

Geography said:


> Despite the rendering, this does not look like a pedestrian friendly train station. Look at the long distances pedestrians have to walk. Where are they walking from, a parking lot or bus stop 200 meters away? Why not have buses drop people off right at the entrance? Who is going to be walking around a vast cement plaza far from the center of town?


It's a pedestrian-hostile country. Everything is geared toward bikes. The poor design of this station is not surprising.


----------



## Pansori

Woonsocket54 said:


> It's a pedestrian-hostile country. Everything is geared toward bikes. The poor design of this station is not surprising.


Are you kidding or what? 
The fact that China is not trying to implement the obsolete 19th century planning ideology in its cities doesn't mean it's 'pedestrian hostile'. On the contrary: I have never seen so much space dedicated to pedestrians as I saw in Chinese cities (same, by the way, applies to Singapore). It actually is pleasant to walk there unlike in such cities like London where you feel like a sardine in a tin squeezed inbetween the buildings and street with no green or recreational spaces. Sorry but that's not the kind of planning that any sane planners in any country should pursue.

I wouldn't even starg on American urban planning here...


----------



## Silly_Walks

Woonsocket54 said:


> Everything is geared toward bikes.


The Netherlands, perhaps. But China? I rode a bike there, and large parts of the country are completely devoid of bikepaths or anything resembling it. Couple that with an increasing love for cars, and riding a bike becomes quite hazardous.


----------



## Sunfuns

How quickly things change...  

I was in China (Beijing) for the first and so far only time in the summer of 1995 and remember wide empty streets with hardly any cars, but millions of bicycles.


----------



## Stainless

Sunfuns said:


> How quickly things change...
> 
> I was in China (Beijing) for the first and so far only time in the summer of 1995 and remember wide empty streets with hardly any cars, but millions of bicycles.


I would have loved to see it then, it is full of cars now or people walking to or from subway stations. Quite a few of the remaining bikes are electric.


----------



## Bannor

chornedsnorkack said:


> Do the stewards also get new uniforms, keep their old uniforms or not exist at all?


Its a female dominated line of work, so "stewardesses" becommes the norm. Ever heard a female name for a pilots? Would that be pilotesses? Or a female word for a driver? A drivess? 
I'm sure the idea exist, but its not the norm...



Pansori said:


> I wouldn't even starg on American urban planning here...


American urban planning? I'll give it a go... Apart from a few places like Manhatten, Boston, Seattle and San Fransisco, american cities are just miles upon miles of 1-2 storey buildings stretched out in a grid. The maximum 1 square kilometer in the middle with some highrises and skyscrapers don't really count, as the streets there are mostly empty (with a few exceptions), and has no vibrant life around them. When americans are outside their van's, they are in a fast food place eating, and when they go outside, they prefer a huge 2 square mile parking lot to a hundred meter park. As if the car-smell was any better than the taste of fresh air. 

Edit: Chinese cities aren't all glam and modern either though. Singapore and Shanghai is remarkable, and some of the other cities are comming after in their footsteps too. But time will tell if the Shenzhen idea of a city works well, and if the excessive roadwidth in Beijing does it well. I have my doubts!


----------



## Bannor

double post


----------



## Sunfuns

I've lived in America and been to Asia several times as well and in my opinion, at least as far as pedestrians or bicyclists are concerned, there is nothing better than the old traditional European model. It has stood the test of time for centuries and there is no evidence of it being outdated.


----------



## Pansori

Sunfuns said:


> I've lived in America and been to Asia several times as well and in my opinion, at least as far as pedestrians or bicyclists are concerned, there is nothing better than the old traditional European model. It has stood the test of time for centuries and there is no evidence of it being outdated.


The difference being that your average Chinese city is perhaps 10x bigger than your average European city.

Of course it would be ideal to have cities like Munich all around... but China needs solutions for cities which are 10-20 million in population, not 0.5-2 million.


----------



## NCT

Pansori said:


> Are you kidding or what?
> The fact that China is not trying to implement the obsolete 19th century planning ideology in its cities doesn't mean it's 'pedestrian hostile'. On the contrary: I have never seen so much space dedicated to pedestrians as I saw in Chinese cities (same, by the way, applies to Singapore). It actually is pleasant to walk there unlike in such cities like London where you feel like a sardine in a tin squeezed inbetween the buildings and street with no green or recreational spaces. Sorry but that's not the kind of planning that any sane planners in any country should pursue.
> 
> I wouldn't even starg on American urban planning here...


Yes, but you are thinking in terms of an aimless tourist walking in a park. For an average person on a specific journey between A and B excess space = excess distance to walk.


----------



## maldini

NCT said:


> Yes, but you are thinking in terms of an aimless tourist walking in a park. For an average person on a specific journey between A and B excess space = excess distance to walk.


For an average person, space means more room for expansion, no need to bump into other people and get pushed around.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> The difference being that your average Chinese city is perhaps 10x bigger than your average European city.


Hardly.


Pansori said:


> Of course it would be ideal to have cities like Munich all around... but China needs solutions for cities which are 10-20 million in population, not 0.5-2 million.


China has an abundance of cities which are 0,5-2 million. China needs solutions for those cities, too.


----------



## Pansori

NCT said:


> Yes, but you are thinking in terms of an aimless tourist walking in a park. For an average person on a specific journey between A and B excess space = excess distance to walk.


This is where well planned and efficient public transport steps in. Heavy rail (metro) + light rail + buses that has to reach every major urban development. China is still in a process of doing that. If you want to see how this works in practice, again, look Singapore.

And the excess space you're describing here is a myth. There is no such thing. In London's case you would simply have it filled with lowrise 'huts' that would fill all the space. So the difference is that you'll be walking on a cramped pedestrian sidewalk surrounded by such houses and street whereas in China you'll be walking in a park, open green space or something of the sort with highrise buildings and street further away from you with much more space left for pedestrians. The total distance to the metro or a bus stop remains the same.

What I mean by that

A:









B:









Have you ever tried getting fast to a bus stop or a tube station via a cramped mini-highstreet in London? I usually resort walking on the STREET (i.e. where the cars go) to be able to walk faster (although that is dangerous) because there is litteraly no space on the pedestrian area. You can observe similar scenes in the City (i.e. the central CBD) of London. This is beyond absurd. Unless you're into fetish of being squeezed, pushed and being stepped on. There are no such problems in the Chinese cities we're discussing. You can walk at your pace and easily predict your timing of getting to your destination.


----------



## Sunfuns

As far as really big cities are concerned you can look at New York, London or Paris, but the poster above me is also right - China has hundreds of cities between half a million and 2 millions. 

From my perspective it's a bit sad to see that so much history has been swept away so quickly and easily in East Asia. China in particular is a very old culture, but one could easily miss it by visiting its cities. No way you could in Rome.


----------



## NCT

More space means access to amenities is more sparce. Total distance to bus stops clearly isn't the same when block sizes are far bigger and crossing points much further apart, and nowhere in China has yet the urban rail station density matching the City of London.

In the photos above, if I wanted to grab a quick bite to eat there would plenty of choice on the doorstep in photo A and I'd be pretty much fooked in photo B. In the City of London there are plenty of alleyways that are either pedestrianised or shared surface that are easily walkable. If you are constantly being squeezed or bumped into by people I think you need to improve on your walking skills. Some places might be cramped, but street to platform is easily doable in 5 minutes at Liverpool Street Station at the height of PM peak. Hongqiao station? No chance.


----------



## particlez

NCT said:


> You are well and truly in fantasy world now!


Re-read your posts over the last few pages, then talk about the fantasy world.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

particlez said:


> Shenzhen North was only built last year, and surrounded by... literally a dump. The detractors in this thread may despise the overly large, greenfield stations away from the city center, but these stations are heavily used, and the areas around the stations are vibrant.


More Shenzhen (metro this case) stations surrounded by dumps. Not on greenfields - rather brownfields, or beige like the earth is...
Liyumen:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dcmaster/6099075087/sizes/z/in/photostream/
Shenkang:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dcmaster/6256430581/sizes/l/in/photostream/


----------



## NCT

particlez said:


> Re-read your posts over the last few pages, then talk about the fantasy world.


Oh shut up. You come out of hiding every now and again just to spout your usual predictable hatred towards your so-called neo-liberal planning, spouting examples that are either completely spurious or totally irrelevant. This is the 'China HSR' thread not the 'I must grind my axe again after 6 months' thread.


----------



## foxmulder

hmmwv said:


> All we know is that he's the Stig's Anti HSR cousin.



LOL, really good one


----------



## chornedsnorkack

particlez said:


> Going north from Hong Kong, the following is a rough outline of the train journey:
> 
> On the Mainland side, the trains first stop off at Luohu in the Shenzhen center, then to Shenzhen North,


Which Shenzhen North?
The Sungang Station?

The passenger stations on Kowloon-Canton railway are:
in Shenzhen:
Luohu
Buji
Pinghu
in Dongguan:
Tiantangwei
Tangtouxia
Zhangmutou
Dongguan
Hengli
Nanshe
Chashan
Shilong
in Zengcheng:
Shitan
Xiancun
Shapu
Xintang
in Guangzhou:
Nangang
Jishan
Shipai
Guangzhou East
Guangzhou.


particlez said:


> then through a bunch of tiny stations in less urbanized/less developed Dongguan, then to Guangzhou East, then to the main Guangzhou station.
> 
> Dongguan's rail terminals are waiting to be refurbished/expanded. As of now the place is a mess. Dongguan is building its elevated rail system, when it starts running and connects with the intercity railway stations, the city should start to ease its reliance on the car. The Shenzhen and Guangzhou stations are heavily used. These four stations, Shenzhen, Shenzhen North, Guangzhou East, and Guangzhou are all served by multiple subway lines. Guangzhou East was built in 1990. Now it's surrounded by a business district. Shenzhen North was only built last year, and surrounded by... literally a dump. The detractors in this thread may despise the overly large, greenfield stations away from the city center, but these stations are heavily used, and the areas around the stations are vibrant. Because these cities are still overcrowded and their populations are expanding, the traditional city centers have NOT been harmed by the building of the new stations.


Kowloon-Canton Railway is also 4 tracked throughout, and was upgraded to 200 km/h already in 1998.

How has it been afflicted by Second Slowdown Campaign?


----------



## particlez

chornedsnorkack said:


> Which Shenzhen North?
> 
> Kowloon-Canton Railway is also 4 tracked throughout, and was upgraded to 200 km/h already in 1998.
> 
> How has it been afflicted by Second Slowdown Campaign?



I should have made myself more clear. I was on the high speed rail line, Shenzhen North, the one with transfer points to the Shenzhen subway lines 4 and 5. To be honest I didn't notice much of a slowdown, maybe the relatively wide open areas of Dongguan county? 

While on the HSR, I noticed the slower parallel trains running. The eastern half of the Pearl River Delta is especially heavily populated, and one of the few places that warrants a four track scheme, especially when many other areas aren't yet served at all.


----------



## particlez

NCT said:


> Oh shut up. You come out of hiding every now and again just to spout your usual predictable hatred towards your so-called neo-liberal planning, spouting examples that are either completely spurious or totally irrelevant. This is the 'China HSR' thread not the 'I must grind my axe again after 6 months' thread.


Touchy, touchy. Take a gander at what you've written. 

I wasn't around for a long time because I was busy working. if I were around and posting things that went against your concepts, you could have accused me of wasting my life online. You were the one who initially dredged up the topic of aesthetics and its inevitable car dependency in a thread about railroads. Off base?

Neo-liberalism refers to an ideologically driven process of privatizing state assets and deregulation. In short, it intends to starve the state. Unfortunately rail-based public transportation is both an essential service, and is a natural monopoly. Thus there are parallels between the privatizing of British Rail and the London Underground, and similar efforts to stifle funding of US public transit, along with attempts to auction off the few profitable rail lines. Unfortunately unlike government, businesses aim to maximize their profit. Everything else is subordinate. Thus deregulated, privatized rail transit generally leads to a dearth of investment, and the hiking of fare revenue from an often captive consumers. 


Your editorials are disturbingly similar to the editorials of the various neo-liberal urban planning media outlets/think tanks/shills. Here are a few which publish articles on urban planning and transportation:

newgeography.com, nextamericancity.org, uli.org, theatlantic.com, stuff from abc news/disney (disney is a huge landowner/developer and also publishes books lauding its own urbanism). Here's what they all stress:

-historicist facades, small blocks, "human" scale, narrow roads staving off car dependency

-the inevitable ineptitude and corruption of central planning

-lip service to the need for public transit investment, but dire warnings of its implementation, constant criticisms of its financial affordability, and instant, grandiose and impossible expectations, etc.

Sound familiar to what you've written? The lauding of historicist facades and an idealized sentimentalism on otherwise car-dependent suburbia is a diversionary tactic of the real estate industry. The theory connecting aesthetics and behavior (in this case car dependency) is called environmental determinism. You've mentioned it, and the real estate industry swears by it. It also makes as much sense as me wearing a crown and suddenly morphing into a king. The correlation has been measured to be between zero and something statistically insignificant. 

As the US real estate industry essentially funds these think tanks, the think tanks publicize what they want you to hear. Suburbia with Disney aesthetics sell. But conflating aesthetics with urbanity is disingenuous and self-serving. Strangely these guys are prevalent in the UK as well. The Krier brothers proselytize the importance of aesthetics, and are both bankrolled by the largest land developers on both sides of the Atlantic.

I get a laugh from your (repeated) comparisons between development in China and what occurs in the US. Apart from relatively wide open ground level spaces (see my earlier post, hopefully you won't argue against the laws of thermodynamics), there's really nothing in common. Let's see, china has the higher densities, continuous investment in public transit, etc. when was the last time a high capacity subway line was built in the US? I'm willing to bet that *you've never set foot in the States*. Many of the newer developments in the US DO look and function like newer British suburbia, as both nations have neo-liberal developer-led planning. All the aesthetics, little of the traditional investment in infrastructure.

Despite your continued connection between a mythically sprawling china and a mythically brutalist US, much of China's planning follows the practices of Hong Kong and Singapore. Both of these now-developed places have many similarities to the large urban areas of eastern China. They have humid-cooling climates, very high densities, continuous investment in public transit, relatively wide roads to facilitate the movement of vehicles, grade-separated pedestrian bridges, very large blocks, minimum density requirements, etc. Somehow I'm willing to bet *you've never set foot in either Hong Kong nor Singapore*. Surprise surprise, the neoliberal, developer funded editorials ignore this seemingly incomprehensible combination of brutalist aesthetics, open-ground level areas, lack of historicist architecture, inhumane scale, AND functioning urbanity with little car dependency.

Here's one final point about neo-liberalism and the Chinese MOR. Some faux reformers in China argue that the MOR should be sold off. They reason that state control of the railroads inevitably results in corruption and mismanagement. Well... they should look at privatized, essential service monopolies in other places.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

particlez said:


> I should have made myself more clear. I was on the high speed rail line, Shenzhen North, the one with transfer points to the Shenzhen subway lines 4 and 5.


The high speed railway goes from Longhua Station through Guangming Station in Shenzhen, Humen Station in Dongguan and Qingsheng Station in Guangzhou to Guangzhou South.


particlez said:


> To be honest I didn't notice much of a slowdown, maybe the relatively wide open areas of Dongguan county?


There hasn´t been any. Longhua-Guangzhou South railway was opened in December 2011, after the Slowdown Campaign, and has never exceeded 300 km/h.


particlez said:


> While on the HSR, I noticed the slower parallel trains running. The eastern half of the Pearl River Delta is especially heavily populated, and one of the few places that warrants a four track scheme, especially when many other areas aren't yet served at all.


The Kowloon-Canton railway, 4 track throughout, never meets the high speed railway, being well to the east and northeast everywhere.

The fastest remaining train Luohu-Guangzhou East (139 km) is D7170, taking 1:09 with stops at Zhangmutuo, Dongguan and Shilong. Most trains take 1:19 for the same stops. 

On the HSR (102 km) the fastest trains are nonstop trains (0:28) which all continue beyond Guangzhou South to Changsha or beyond. Slowest G trains take 49 minutes with all stops.


----------



## particlez

foxmulder said:


> This topic never disappoints.
> 
> Some say China is over-investing on high speed rail forgetting it has more than a *billion *people to move.
> 
> Some say China should double the high speed rail lines forgetting it will require *another *trillion dollar.
> 
> Some say Chinese trains are running too slow, cannot compete with air travel, forgetting they have the fastest average speed.
> 
> Some say Chinese trains are too fast, uneconomical, forgetting they are the most efficient way of mass transit.
> 
> Interesting, though. Fun to discuss.


It actually sounds like the stuff one hears throughout North America on a daily basis. There is a desire amongst the general public for sound public transit, yet there are countless opponents; airlines, oil companies, "austerity" driven politicians, etc

Instead of anything pragmatic, many "urban" things here consist of lifestyle stuff--drinking beer at dive bars, talking about cool movies, other useless diversions. Read the "city discussions" section of skyscraperpage. It's so absurd, I can't bring myself to post there.


----------



## particlez

Sorry, I stayed at a hotel by the Shenzhen North station. I took the subway and used the Buji and Luohu stations to transfer to the train. Then it was off to Guangzhou East.

Mind you, this was late summer of last year, about the time of the Universiade. Missed Guangzhou South, but did get to wander through an almost-completed Shenzhen North train station.


----------



## NCT

particlez said:


> The usual load of bilge.


You seem to think you possess mind-reading powers - well if you do they are exceedingly comical. Those points taken in isolation are not completely nonsensical, but they bare no relation to the discussion at hand whatsoever. You construct a straw-man and claim I promote privatisation and faux-historical aesthetics, yet I have never said such things. While I respond to other people's point once in a brief post, it is you who decides to engage in wild speculation and talk at length about neo-liberalism which is an extremely tangential subject. Alright, I'll just respond to you for once.

You seem to laud the success of Chinese planning as long as car use is a little lower than in America, even though just a 10% car use makes the roads gridlocked and fills the air with smog (car numbers in Beijing is on par with London, and car *use* in the former is higher). You don't care that long journey times, inadequate connections and lack of multiplicity of land use is driving more and more towards the car just because in percentage terms car-use is still a little lower. Due to that big chip on your shoulder any remote criticism of Chinese transport planning approach must come from the anti-public transport and neo-liberal brigade.

Nobody is questionning the *need* for metro lines to be built in cities or for HSR to be extensively built throughout the country, but these hard truths you cannot ignore - 

Firstly - inadequate connections between local buses and metro and often long and circuitous walks mean that it's still quicker to take the car; and lack of bus priority on China's generous roads means people are forced onto the metro for short to medium distances which push some people into their car because the metro is too crowded. 

And secondly, *back on topic*, even though CRH has some of the highest operational speeds in the world, remote station locations, entry procedures and lack of thought given to slow/fast services mean the Beijing - Shanghai line is hardly competitive against air, when the air-route ought to have been killed by now.

It's not just a case of 'things are at their infancy problems will be ironed out eventually', no its goes much deeper than that.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> Some say China should double the high speed rail lines forgetting it will require *another *trillion dollar.
> 
> Some say Chinese trains are running too slow, cannot compete with air travel, forgetting they have the fastest average speed.
> 
> Some say Chinese trains are too fast, uneconomical, forgetting they are the most efficient way of mass transit.


Both are true. Which is why many high speed rail lines need doubling - or efficient integration with existing rails.

For high speed trains could, and should, compete with BOTH air travel at high speed, and with buses and private cars at price, and the convenience of stopping near destination.

It is the need to meet these 2 disparate goals at 2 disparate speeds that requires double BUT mutually integrated high speed railway networks.


----------



## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> Both are true. Which is why many high speed rail lines need doubling - or efficient integration with existing rails.
> 
> For high speed trains could, and should, compete with BOTH air travel at high speed, and with buses and private cars at price, and the convenience of stopping near destination.
> 
> It is the need to meet these 2 disparate goals at 2 disparate speeds that requires double BUT mutually integrated high speed railway networks.


+1. Well said.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> Nobody is questionning the *need* for metro lines to be built in cities or for HSR to be extensively built throughout the country, but these hard truths you cannot ignore -
> 
> Firstly - inadequate connections between local buses and metro and often long and circuitous walks mean that it's still quicker to take the car; and lack of bus priority on China's generous roads


Bus priority is the wrong approach.

Wherever buses need priority is where you need electric transport - and then not buses. Where buses are needed is the last mile in sparsely settled countryside and suburbs - and there they do not need priority.


----------



## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> Bus priority is the wrong approach.
> 
> Wherever buses need priority is where you need electric transport - and then not buses. Where buses are needed is the last mile in sparsely settled countryside and suburbs - and there they do not need priority.


Metro doesn't provide enough penetration to population and business centres, and not enough capacity either. For medium to short distances rail isn't always convenient, and buses can provide valuable round-the-corner links.

This is where I would indeed look to Hong Kong and Singapore, where buses provide convenient and speedy trunk services which complement their rail networks effectively. Their buses are double deckers providing plenty of seats, which make a change from the packed metro carriages.


----------



## particlez

of course, ignore the actual arguments, and go for the lines about

-how it looks
-how it will inevitably not work
-ask for high capacity networks, then whine about the Pearl River Delta's railway system later





> You seem to laud the success of Chinese planning as long as car use is a little lower than in America, even though just a 10% car use makes the roads gridlocked and fills the air with smog (car numbers in Beijing is on par with London, and car use in the former is higher). You don't care that long journey times, inadequate connections and lack of multiplicity of land use is driving more and more towards the car just because in percentage terms car-use is still a little lower. Due to that big chip on your shoulder any remote criticism of Chinese transport planning approach must come from the anti-public transport and neo-liberal brigade.


Re-read your comments from the previous pages. You again led a cabal of critics with the "it sure looks autocentric, thus it is autocentric" tripe. 

*You've never been to the States.* Yet you harp on the China is _almost_ the States myth. Hell, *you've never been to Hong Kong/Singapore* which DOES serve as a model. If you had personal knowledge of these places, your editorials wouldn't be so laughable.

One more thing about private vehicle use in developing countries. It's not guaranteed to go higher, though you hold it as a mantra. I had to research the history while in school. *A generation ago similar developer-funded periodicals editorialized that the bourgeois in Hong Kong and Singapore would not take to their then-nascent and supposedly impractical and outlandish transit system investment. These people were too vain, the aesthetics were too dystopian, etc. Sound similar to the argument you're using now?*


----------



## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> Metro doesn't provide enough penetration to population and business centres, and not enough capacity either. For medium to short distances rail isn't always convenient, and buses can provide valuable round-the-corner links.


Yes, but so can trams and trolleybuses.


----------



## foxmulder

chornedsnorkack said:


> Both are true. Which is why many high speed rail lines need doubling - or efficient integration with existing rails.
> 
> For high speed trains could, and should, compete with BOTH air travel at high speed, and with buses and private cars at price, and the convenience of stopping near destination.
> 
> It is the need to meet these 2 disparate goals at 2 disparate speeds that requires double BUT mutually integrated high speed railway networks.


Well yes, there is already projects for really highly used routes so no worries, right 










Once the speed increases back to 350km/h (or more) it will be more competitive, too.


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## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> Well yes, there is already projects for really highly used routes so no worries, right


Thanks!
What are the selection criteria for this map?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Thanks!
> What are the selection criteria for this map?


Those are dedicated intercity lines (ICL) in China, it's a older maps so at the time only red lines were completed.


----------



## ANR

*Funding lifts railway project suspensions*

Last Updated :2012-04-18 
Source:chinadaily.com.cn 

More than 80 percent of the suspended railway projects are recommencing after funds of almost 50 billion yuan ($7.94 billion) have been put in place, China Business News reported Tuesday, citing railway expert Wang Mengshu. "At least 40 billion yuan's worth of loans from banks can be guaranteed," said Wang, "the current amount of raised money is not bad in terms of the resumed railway projects."

But since a gap of more than 20 billion yuan still exists, a few less important projects have to be shelved to ensure the completion of key railway lines, he warned. "In fact, 80 billion yuan is annually needed to maintain the construction rate specified in a revised state blueprint on railway networks in 2008," Huang said.

Last August, seven large construction groups urged the central government to take nationwide railway stoppages seriously in a joint statement submitted to China's State Council, the cabinet. In late September 2011, the State Council asked the National Development and Reform Commission, China's top economic planner, to seek solutions for the financial difficulties in railway construction. From October to November, the Ministry of Railways was financed over 20 billion yuan and raised another 7 billion yuan after issuing construction bonds for three consecutive times in a month. "Despite some relief from financial distress in 2012, it is imperative to reform the railway system in China considering its fluctuations in the recent years," warned an analyst from Huatia United Securities, who declined to be named.


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## Woonsocket54

CRH in Tianjin









source: *Cathay Knight* panoramio account (http://www.panoramio.com/photo/70234511)


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## hkskyline

*Group travelers complain about expensive high-speed train tickets*
2012-April-18 08:53 
Shenzhen Daily

MANY group travelers find that it is more expensive to travel by high-speed train than airplane as there are no discounts offered on high-speed train tickets.

Most routes are more expensive if traveling by high-speed train as travel agencies can get big discounts on group plane tickets, yesterday’s Daily Sunshine reported.

For example, many travelers like to go from Shenzhen to Wuhan, Hubei Province, and then go to Chongqing Municipality and fly back to Shenzhen. However, the cost of the journey has increased by about 500 yuan (US$80) compared with the same period of last year if travelers take the high-speed train to Wuhan.

“The airlines told the agencies that we could not get group discounts when buying tickets for the high-speed train to Wuhan instead of flights, so the five-day trip is now about 4,680 yuan per person. Because of the high price, we have had no more than 80 travelers taking the high-speed train to Hubei since April 1,” said Han Tao, general director of Shenzhen Pengcheng Jiaqi Travel Co. Ltd.

Although many people and agencies were excited about the opening of the direct train from Shenzhen to Wuhan, there have not been many travelers since the Tomb-sweeping Festival holiday.

“A more flexible pricing system should be introduced to lower the cost of high-speed train travel, letting the train operator, airlines, passengers and travel agencies all benefit from the convenient and timely train,” said Han.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Trying to go through the questions systematically:
> Next 2 months:
> 1) 1-2) The only high speed railways which have been last mentioned as opening before July 2012 were Wuhan-Xianning Metropolis Intercity railway (last due to open in May, no updates since) and Wuhan-Yichang high speed railway (has been mentioned as due for May, but afterwards collapsed).
> Are there any updates as to when they are actually ready for service?
> 2) CIT500 tests have been reported. But the loop line in Beijing where the tests were mentioned was quite short and curvy.
> Shall CIT500 be tested on Wuhan-Zhengzhou or Dalian-Harbin high speed railways before these get opened in July?
> July 2012:
> 3) The total length of Wuhan-Zhengzhou-Shijiazhuang high speed railway is often quoted (as 840 km). But how long is Wuhan-Zhengzhou alone?
> Longhua-Shijiazhuang will obviously be 1912 km (compare Beijing-Hongqiao-Hangzhou 1487 km).
> Also what would be the length Longhua-Zhengzhou East-Xian (I understand it would include reversing direction at Zhengzhou East).
> 4) More speculatively, what shall be the best total direct trip times Longhua-Xian and Longhua-Shijiazhuang this July?
> (The existing G trains Beijing-Hongqiao-Hangzhou take over 6:19)
> Later 2012:
> 5) In which month is opening of Wuhan-Huangshi Metropolis Railway planned?
> 6) After opening of Lichuan-Chongqing, there shall be a continuous trunk line Shanghai-Nanjing-Wuhan-Yichang-Lichuan-Chongqing-Suining-Chengdu, line speed at least 200 km/h save in Three Gorges mountains Yichang-Lichuan where it is 160 km/h.
> What shall then be direct train time Shanghai-Chengdu?
> Unclear and contradictory news:
> 7) In which year is the opening of Longhua-Futian high speed railway and Futian Station due?
> 8-9) What is the state of progress and opening due date of Nanchang-Putian railway? Of Harbin-Qiqihar high speed railway?
> Works in progress beyond 2012:
> 10) In this thread, resumption of suspended construction of Tianjin-Qinhuangdao high speed railway has been reported. When is the line due for completion?


1. I do not expect Wuhan-Yichang to be delayed by much, as you can see from previous post it's already repaired a couple of weeks ago and are under testing.
2. CIT/CRH500 probably will not be breaking any speed record anytime soon under the current political climate. It's testing its systems at the Beijing loop, not breaking records there.
3. The only thing I can find about Zhengzhou-Wuhan is around 500km.
4. Shenzhen-Shijiazhuang probably gonna take 7.5 hrs. To Xian slightly more.
5. Wuhan-Huangshi is planned to open at around June 2013.
6. After the current Shanghai-Chengdu line is connected with at least 200km/h track the total travel time should be around 10-11 hours.
7. Futian line and the station should be put into operation this year, but the delay of the main line in 2010 may have unknown affects on its schedule.
8. Xiangpu Railway (Nanchang-Fuzhou) is delayed to Sept 30, 2013 from late 2012.
9. Harbin-Qiqihar PDL's construction only resumed a couple of days ago, construction is projected to be completed by the end of 2013, opening in 2014.
10. Good news, Tianjin-Qinghuangdao HSR has resumed, but progress is unknown and estimated completion time unknown.


----------



## hkskyline

*China eyes faster high-speed trains*

BEIJING, April 19 (Xinhua) -- China will work to further improve technologies to increase the speeds of high-speed trains, according to a document published Wednesday by the Ministry of Science and Technology.

Moreover, by the year 2020, China will finish construction on 16,000 km of high-speed railways, said a special plan for the country's high-speed train technology development during the 12th Five-year Plan (2011-2015) period, which was posted on the ministry's website on Wednesday.

The special plan aims to ensure the sustainable development of the core technology of the country's high-speed trains and enhance the safety of its high-speed railways on the basis of independent innovation.

To that end, major tasks in the plan include efforts to improve systematic, intelligent and energy-saving technologies for high-speed trains, the document said.

The plan also said China will research and develop high-speed train products for export.

The plan set a target for doing research and making innovations in the permanent magnet motor technology for the train's power system, which, according to Ding Rongjun, an academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, is expected to considerably conserve energy.

Moreover, intelligent technology will allow trains' speed control, condition determination and fault detection operations to be conducted digitally, Ding was quoted as saying in the Thursday edition of the Beijing News.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Now commenting on more speculative plans...
> 11) Has there been any official or serious discussion regarding next speedup or possibility of returning services to line speeds of 350 km/h, 250 km/h or 200 km/h?
> 12) From July, when over 1900 km long high speed railways open, even express trains shall travel inconveniently long for day trips, and would even at 350 km/h or beyond.
> So far all high speed railways have closed between about 7:00 and 24:00.
> But slow speed railways up to 200 km/h do manage to run night trains and find maintenance windows.
> Have there been any serious plans for high speed night trains?
> 13) There are obvious gaps and missing links of high networks - whole sections are isolated.
> Manchurian network shall get connected at least with 2016 opening of Beijing-Chengde-Shenyang. Lanzhou-Urumqi shall open in April 2013 and remain isolated till 2017.
> Are there any serious plans for Guangzhou-Maoming-Zhenjiang-Haian high speed railway?
> 
> And a yet more speculative and general question:
> 14) Minister Fu Zhihuan retired in March 2003, around his 65th birthday. He was then replaced by Liu Zhijun, aged merely 50.
> Yet Sheng Guangzu is actually 4 years older than Liu Zhijun, was 61 on taking office, and would be 63 in March 2013, and 73 in March 2023.
> Is Sheng Guangzu the permanent, whole generation Minister of Railways? Or is China currently looking for a Minister of Railways who could take office in March 2013 and stay in office till 2023?


11. No, all major lines preparing to be opened are quoted to have the new lower operating speed (200km/h, 250km/h, 300km/h). However they are all still designed to be able to handle the higher speed.
12. There hasn't been any 300km/h lines long enough to warrant night trains, but as you have mentioned that's a possibility as trains such as Shenzhen to Shijiazhuang or Xian. IIRC so far both sleeper versions of CRH1 and CRH2 are only 250km/h.
13. There are only long term plans for Guangzhou to Hainan via Zhanjiang, but there is the problem of the Qiongzhou Strait, without a bridge or tunnel the current HSR train via ferry simply can't compete with airlines.
14. I don't think Shen Guangzu is permanent, thank god not, this clown is nothing but a political opportunist who only cares about his career. I'm pretty sure the Xi Jinping/Li Keqiang administration will pick their own Minister of Railway.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> *China eyes faster high-speed trains*
> 
> BEIJING, April 19 (Xinhua) -- China will work to further improve technologies to increase the speeds of high-speed trains, according to a document published Wednesday by the Ministry of Science and Technology.


Compare:


hmmwv said:


> 2. CIT/CRH500 probably will not be breaking any speed record anytime soon under the current political climate. It's testing its systems at the Beijing loop, not breaking records there.





hmmwv said:


> 11. No, all major lines preparing to be opened are quoted to have the new lower operating speed (200km/h, 250km/h, 300km/h).





hkskyline said:


> Moreover, by the year 2020, China will finish construction on 16,000 km of high-speed railways, said a special plan for the country's high-speed train technology development during the 12th Five-year Plan (2011-2015) period, which was posted on the ministry's website on Wednesday.


Trying to tally the lines.
Existing, ever since opening of Guangzhou-Longhua, December 2011:
Ningbo-Xiamen, 941 km
Wuhan-Longhua, 1072 km
Beijing-Shanghai, 1302 km
Nanjing-Wuhan, 517 km
Jinan-Qingdao, 364 km
Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan, 190 km
Chengdu-Suining-Dazhou, 148 km
Zhengzhou-Xian, 455 km
Shanghai-Hangzhou, 150 km
Yichang-Wanzhou, 377 km
Qinhuangdao-Shenyang, 404 km
Beijing-Tianjin, 115 km
Chengdu-Dujiangyan, 65 km
Shanghai-Nanjing, 301 km
Nanchang-Jiujiang, 131 km
Hainan East Ring, 308 km
Changchun-Jilin, 111 km
Guangzhou-Zhuhai, 117 km.
Is this correct?


----------



## yaohua2000

chornedsnorkack said:


> Compare:
> 
> 
> 
> Trying to tally the lines.
> Existing, ever since opening of Guangzhou-Longhua, December 2011:
> Ningbo-Xiamen, 941 km
> Wuhan-Longhua, 1072 km
> Beijing-Shanghai, 1302 km
> Nanjing-Wuhan, 517 km
> Jinan-Qingdao, 364 km
> Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan, 190 km
> Chengdu-Suining-Dazhou, 148 km
> Zhengzhou-Xian, 455 km
> Shanghai-Hangzhou, 150 km
> Yichang-Wanzhou, 377 km
> Qinhuangdao-Shenyang, 404 km
> Beijing-Tianjin, 115 km
> Chengdu-Dujiangyan, 65 km
> Shanghai-Nanjing, 301 km
> Nanchang-Jiujiang, 131 km
> Hainan East Ring, 308 km
> Changchun-Jilin, 111 km
> Guangzhou-Zhuhai, 117 km.
> Is this correct?


Beijing-Shanghai: 1318 km, include branch lines
Beijing-Tianjin: 117 km
Zhengzhou-Xian: 457 km


----------



## chornedsnorkack

With your corrections, what I get is 7088 km in service.
Is that right?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> With your corrections, what I get is 7088 km in service.
> Is that right?


It depends whether you are counting dedicated high speed rail lines, because lines such as Yichang-Wanzhou are not, they also have 160km/h conventional passenger service on it. If you count that you also have to count the 128km Chongqing-Suining Railway, which was completed in 2006 and runs 200km/h CRH service since 2010.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

What lines do the makers of 12th and 13th 5 Year Plans count?

Now, lines due to be opened within 2012, between May and December:
Hefei-Bengbu, 131 km
Panjin-Yingkou, 89 km
Harbin-Shenyang-Dalian, 904 km
Wuhan-Zhengzhou-Shijiazhuang-Beijing, 1119 km
Hangzhou-Ningbo, 152 km
Chongqing-Lichuan, 264 km
Hankou-Yichang, 293 km
Nanjing-Hangzhou, 249 km
Longyan-Xiamen, 171 km
Jiangyou-Chengdu-Leshan, 319 km
Wuhan-Xianning, 90 km
Qingdao-Rongcheng, 299 km

Is that right?


----------



## gdolniak

*No.3 of 2012 (General Serial No.110): Follow-up Audit Findings of Construction Project for Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway in 2011*

*No.3 of 2012 (General Serial No.110): Follow-up Audit Findings of Construction Project for Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway in 2011*

According to the stipulations of the Audit Law of People’s Republic of China, the National Audit Office of China (hereinafter referred as the CNAO) carried out a phased follow-up audit on the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway Construction Project (hereinafter referred as “Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway”) from June to September in 2011. Now the audit results are announced as follows:

[...]

III. Major Problems Identified by the Audit and their Corrections

A. The civil engineering construction and particular material purchase tender did not comply with relevant regulations. Firstly, in the invitation for tenders for the whole line’s civil engineering construction, the time limit provisions of relevant tender regulations were not complied strictly. In December 2007, in the No.1 to No.6 Tenders for the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway’s whole line’s civil construction, the Ministry of Railways shortened the acceptance time of the application documents for prequalification from no less than 5 working days to 13 hours, and shortened the time between obtaining and submitting the application documents for prequalification from normally no less than 7 working days to 24 hours. Secondly, particular material purchase tenders and tender assessments were not carried out in accordance with regulations, with the amount involved of RMB0.849 billion. For example, since October 2009, the Beijing-Shanghai Corporation purchased the 718, 000 square meters of sliding-layer materials without a tender invitation, involving an amount of RMB 28,337,300. After the open invitation for tender in March 2010, the Beijing-Shanghai Corporation again purchased 1, 303, 500 square meters of sliding-layer materials from a bid-losing enterprise in a way of emergency purchase, involving an amount of RMB49,525,100. Moreover, the supply unit price of 862,000 square meters was higher than that of the bid-winning enterprise by RMB3, 918, 000 in total price. In August 2009, in the invitation for tender for the bridge surface waterproof materials, the Beijing-Shanghai Corporation did not assess enterprises’ maximum contract performance capabilities as required by the tender document, and assigned 12 materials packages to 10 suppliers, with a total amount of RMB0.698 billion, which violated the requirement in the tender document that the winning bidder should be determined in the most economic principle.

As for the above problems, the Ministry of Railways indicated that in the future they would strictly comply with laws and regulations in project construction and materials purchase tenders, and issued the Rules for Implementation of Construction Tender of Railway Construction Projects and the Rules for Bid Section Sortition of Railway Project Construction, in order to perfect relevant regulations and enhance the management of railway construction tender.

B. Particular project managements were inadequate. Firstly, the Beijing-Shanghai Corporation canceled the wind barriers for partial sections of the line, leaving RMB0.413 billion materials unused. In March 2011, it canceled the 177.73 km wind barriers under construction according to the hourly speed adjustment, and adopted the speed limit on partial sections of the line to ensure traveling security in the extremely strong wind time. As a result, the 150,000 linear meters wind barriers worth RMB0.413 billion were left unused. Secondly, till October 2011, the Spare Power Supply Cable Line Project of the Li Ying Traction Substation of the Beijing section of the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway line had not been completed. The Li Ying Traction Substation only has one power supply line, which violates the regulation that the power of the railway traction substation should be supplied by two lines, which reduced the reliability of the traction power supply of this section.

After the above problems were pointed out by the audit, the Ministry of Railways and the Beijing-Shanghai Corporation reported that wind monitoring equipment systems had been placed on the whole line of the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway and that they would monitor the wind speed well according to relevant regulations and adopt corresponding speed limits for different wind monitoring results so as to ensure the traveling safety of the trains. Besides, they planned to allocate the idle wind barriers to other passenger transport railways for use. The Spare Power Supply Cable Line Project of the Li Ying Traction Substation was speeded up and the spare power supply cable line was completed on December 15, 2011 and started transmitting power, meeting the design requirement.

C. Particular local grassroots units along the line obtained, intercepted and embezzled RMB0.491 billion funds for land acquisition and removal. Firstly, in October 2008, the Management Committee of the Nanjing Jiangning Economic and Technological Development Zone (hereinafter referred as Jiangning Development Zone Management Committee) applied for the land acquisition compensation of RMB0.14 billion, with false materials, in the name of the Nanjing Municipal Handian Real Estate Development Co., Ltd. Till the end of June 2011, the Jiangning Development Zone Management Committee had obtained the land acquisition compensation of RMB 40 million. Secondly, in October 2008, the Xibeixie Village of the Zhongbei Town of the Xiqing District of the Tianjin City listed more office building demolition area than its actual area and intercepted a demolition compensation of RMB1.431 million. Thirdly, in 2008, the Beichen District of Tianjin intercepted a demolition compensation of RMB0.34 billion in the land acquisition and remove for the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway. In April 2011, the Qingguang Town People’s Government of the Beichen District of Tianjin embezzled the land acquisition and remove compensation for the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway of RMB9.102million for adding sound barriers.

After the above problems were revealed by the audit, relevant local governments paid high attention to them and actively organized forces to investigate and dispose the problems. Till now, the Xiqing District and Beichen District of Tianjin has returned exactly the amount of the overstated and embezzled land acquisition and remove funds. Besides, relevant governments are organizing dedicated forces to investigate the problems that Jiangsu Provincial Jiangning Development Zone Management Committee and the Tianjin Municipal Beichen District obtained and intercepted the demolition funds.

D. The construction companies along the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway line defaulted on materials and project labor service payments. Through the investigation of arrearages of over RMB1 million of construction companies owing single materials suppliers and of over RMB0.3 million of construction companies owing single construction teams, it was found that because the budgetary estimate clearance of the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway had not been completed, part of the construction companies had difficulties in funds turnover. Till May 2011, the construction companies for civil construction, station construction, etc. defaulted on RMB5.879billion material payments of 656 material suppliers, and defaulted on RMB2.372 billion labor service payments of 1,471 construction teams.

After the above problems were pointed out by the audit, the Beijing-Shanghai Corporation speeded up the budgetary estimate clearance, actively raised funds, coordinated to solve the construction companies’ difficulties in funds turnover and urged them to accelerate the payments for the arrearages.

http://www.cnao.gov.cn/main/articleshow_ArtID_1209.htm


----------



## hmmwv

*China, Thailand to work closer on high-speed rail*
Updated: 2012-04-19 21:10
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012-04/19/content_15094162.htm
(Xinhua)

BEIJING - China and Thailand have agreed to beef up cooperation in the land and water transportation sectors, according to a joint statement issued by the two governments on Thursday following Thai Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra's first official China visit.
The two countries also signed an agreement on facilitating railway cooperation during her visit, particularly in the area of high-speed rail construction.
According to the joint statement, the two countries agreed to boost cooperation in multiple areas in order to further their bilateral partnership.
They vowed to promote greater cooperation in traditional and non-traditional security sectors and jointly address terrorism, trafficking and illegal migration.
They will facilitate two-way investment and continue to promote the use of local currencies in bilateral trade and investment in order to lower the impact of exchange rate risks, the statement says.
The two countries are also committed to strengthening cooperation in the areas of agriculture, science and technology, ocean and environmental protection, it says.
Both sides plan to set up a joint laboratory for climate and marine ecosystem research and seek closer cooperation in the clean energy sector, according to the statement.
To step up cultural exchanges, the two countries agreed to promote the establishment of Chinese and Thai language and culture centers and encourage more students to study abroad, the statement says.
They also pledged to enhance cooperation in tourism, public health, water resource management, flood and disaster prevention and post-disaster reconstruction, according to the statement.
The statement was issued at the end of Yingluck's visit, which lasted from April 17 to 19.


----------



## hmmwv

*CSR's overseas orders 'to rise 50%'*
Updated: 2012-04-17 09:43
http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2012-04/17/content_15066267.htm
By Liu Yiyu (China Daily)










CSR products on display at the Beijing International Orbit Transportation Operation and Equipment Exhibition on Nov 1, 2011. [Photo/China Daily] 
Wenzhou train crash having little effect on company's business
China South Locomotive and Rolling Stock Corp Ltd, one of the two largest high-speed train producers in China, said its overseas orders will increase substantially this year as overseas demand for its products outstrips domestic demand.
The company, also known as CSR, said its overseas orders have not been affected by the high-speed train crash that occurred near Wenzhou, Zhejiang province, last year. It expects to see its orders increase by at least 50 percent in 2012, said a senior CSR official, who declined to identify himself.
The company predicted that 20 percent of its revenue will come from overseas by 2015, up from 8 percent in 2011.
CSR Zhuzhou Electric Locomotive Co Ltd, a CSR subsidiary, recently won a bid to supply 20 sets of light rail vehicles to Malaysia's AMPANG (AMG) Line Extension Project, which will extend one of the two lines in the Kuala Lumpur Rail Transit System network.
China will see several countries, including the US, Russia and India, outpace it this year in railway expansion. As a result, CSR is trying to move faster into the overseas market.
It is now talking with its partners in Europe, North America and Australia about the possibility of acquiring new technology and reducing its dependence on the domestic market.
"We are looking for companies that will strengthen our technology," Bloomberg reported, quoting CSR Chairman Zhao Xiaogang.
"Companies in developed countries are experiencing some difficulties and are willing to sell their assets."
CSR's 2011 profits increased by 50 percent year-on-year to reach 5 billion yuan.
Meanwhile, its competitor, China Northern Locomotive and Rolling Stock Industry Corp, also reported a 50 percent year-on-year increase in profits in 2011, saying it had 3.2 billion yuan in profits that year. Its overseas revenue increased by 40 percent that year, even though it gets only 10 percent of its total revenue from that source.
China Northern Locomotive has supplied freight trains to Australia, New Zealand, France, as well as to countries in Central Asia and South America. Apart from trains, the company recently exported control system technology to Bangladesh.
On July 23 last year, two high-speed trains crashed on a line near Wenzhou, killing 39 people. The accident was caused by serious signal malfunctions, and CSR has denied that its trains were to blame.
China plans to spend 400 billion yuan ($63.4 billion) this year on railway projects. That was down from 469 billion yuan in 2011 and from more than 700 billion yuan in 2010, a sign that the country is fine-tuning its railway industry.
Plans now call for the country to have 120,000 kilometers of railway tracks by 2020, up from 91,000 kilometers in 2011. According to CSR's estimate, China will have 100,000 kilometers of railway tracks by the end of 2012.
[email protected]


----------



## chornedsnorkack

chornedsnorkack said:


> Now, lines due to be opened within 2012, between May and December:
> Hefei-Bengbu, 131 km
> Panjin-Yingkou, 89 km
> Harbin-Shenyang-Dalian, 904 km
> Wuhan-Zhengzhou-Shijiazhuang-Beijing, 1119 km
> Hangzhou-Ningbo, 152 km
> Chongqing-Lichuan, 264 km
> Hankou-Yichang, 293 km
> Nanjing-Hangzhou, 249 km
> Longyan-Xiamen, 171 km
> Jiangyou-Chengdu-Leshan, 319 km
> Wuhan-Xianning, 90 km
> Qingdao-Rongcheng, 299 km


In total 4080 km.


----------



## hmmwv

I think that list is pretty accurate. All those routes are confirmed to be completed this year.


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## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> Plans now call for the country to have 120,000 kilometers of railway tracks by 2020, up from 91,000 kilometers in 2011. According to CSR's estimate, China will have 100,000 kilometers of railway tracks by the end of 2012.
> [email protected]


Which means that a total of 9000 km railway tracks shall be or has been opened. Since 4080 km of these are high speed railways, the rest, 4920 km, is slow speed railways.

By the end of 2012, 11 168 km of high speed railways should be in service.


----------



## gdolniak

*Airlines link up with high-speed rail services*

Airlines link up with high-speed rail services
By Wang Wen (China Daily)










A Hainan Airlines Co Ltd airplane at Haikou Meilan International Airport in Hainan province. China's high-speed rail service has had a broad, adverse effect on airlines' domestic business, according to experts. [Photo/China Daily] 

After two years of competing with high-speed rail lines, Chinese airlines are trying to find a mutually beneficial solution for both sides.

On Monday, Hainan Airlines Co Ltd launched a joint operating program with Yuehai Railway Co Ltd, which runs the high-speed rail between Haikou and Sanya in Hainan province.

Passengers can buy high-speed rail tickets from Haikou to Sanya when booking tickets on any Hainan Airlines flight to Haikou.

The rail fares will be the same as those offered directly by railways. The airline will eventually sell tickets to other stops on the high-speed rail route.

Hainan Airlines is not the only carrier with such a program.

China Eastern Airlines Co Ltd will start to sell high-speed rail tickets at the end of this month.

Tickets in either direction will be offered between Shanghai and four other cities - Suzhou, Wuxi, Changzhou and Ningbo.

Ticket sales for high-speed rail lines will expand gradually within the main cities of Anhui, Jiangsu and Zhejiang provinces and Shanghai, which are under the jurisdiction of the Shanghai Railway Bureau, said Shen Xiaosheng, deputy director of the carrier's publicity department.

He said fares will fluctuate, but joint tickets will cost less than the total air and rail fares if sold separately.

China's high-speed rail service has been operating for two years and has had a broad, adverse effect on airlines' domestic business.

Areas that are getting high-speed rail service are also the most profitable for airlines. All three major State-owned airlines cited high-speed rail service as a factor affecting revenue in their financial reports.

Joint ticketing for airlines and high-speed rail lines could be a way for air carriers to profit from China's high-speed rail system, analysts said.

"High-speed rail services heavily affect the business of flights of less than 500 kilometers," said Yuan Huifang, deputy general manager of marketing and sales at Hainan Airlines. "But we want to find a way to cooperate with rail systems."

Yuan said joint ticketing can help both sides get more passengers.

However, it's not easy for airlines and railways to work together.

Hainan Airlines took almost one year to prepare for the program, and it was difficult to combine the two different ticketing systems, said Wang Yue, manager of product development at Hainan Airlines.

Also, joint operation requires convenient transfers, but few Chinese airports can meet that need. For that reason, Hainan Airlines will promote the program more heavily on international destinations rather than adding more domestic cities, Yuan said.

"I believe more railway stations and airports will be built together for joint operations," she added.

Carriers must improve their services to deal with the ongoing expansion of high-speed rail service, analysts said.

As much as 3,500 kilometers of new high-speed rail lines will be built in 2012. The four main north-south routes, including one between Beijing and Guangzhou, will be finished this year, the People's Daily reported in February.

The heaviest competition from high-speed rails won't come until 2013 or 2014, as most of the new lines won't go into service until the end of 2012, said Li Lei, an aviation analyst at CITIC Securities Co Ltd.

Airlines might abandon some feeder flights, which can be replaced by high-speed rail service, while adding flights to other routes, Li said.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2012-04/24/content_15124568.htm


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Lines to be opened over the rest of 12th 5 year plan, from January 2013 to December 2015:
Xiamen-Shenzhen, 502 km
Xian-Baoji, 148 km
Xuzhou-Zhengzhou, 357 km
Hangzhou-Changsha, 926 km
Changsha-Kunming, 1175 km
Datong-Xian, 859 km
Guangzhou-Guiyang, 857 km
Guiyang-Chengdu, 519 km
Lanzhou-Xinjiang, 1776 km
Hefei-Fuzhou, 806 km
Xian-Chengdu, 510 km
Nanchang-Putian, 604 km
Guangzhou-Nanning, 577 km
Nanping-Longyan, 247 km
rest of Wuhan Metropolis Intercity Railway, 70 km
Beijing-Tangshan, 160 km
Harbin-Qiqihar, 286 km
Beijing-Zhangjiakou, 174 km
Chongqing-Wanzhou, 250 km
Shenyang-Dandong, 208 km
Chengdu-Chongqing, 305 km
Changsha-Zhuzhou-Xiangtan, 95 km
Hangzhou-Huangshan, 262 km.

Is this correct?


----------



## phoenixboi08

gdolniak said:


> Airlines link up with high-speed rail services
> By Wang Wen (China Daily)
> 
> A Hainan Airlines Co Ltd airplane at Haikou Meilan International Airport in Hainan province. China's high-speed rail service has had a broad, adverse effect on airlines' domestic business, according to experts. [Photo/China Daily]
> 
> After two years of competing with high-speed rail lines, Chinese airlines are trying to find a mutually beneficial solution for both sides.
> 
> On Monday, Hainan Airlines Co Ltd launched a joint operating program with Yuehai Railway Co Ltd, which runs the high-speed rail between Haikou and Sanya in Hainan province.
> 
> Passengers can buy high-speed rail tickets from Haikou to Sanya when booking tickets on any Hainan Airlines flight to Haikou.
> 
> The rail fares will be the same as those offered directly by railways. The airline will eventually sell tickets to other stops on the high-speed rail route.
> 
> Hainan Airlines is not the only carrier with such a program.
> 
> China Eastern Airlines Co Ltd will start to sell high-speed rail tickets at the end of this month.
> 
> Tickets in either direction will be offered between Shanghai and four other cities - Suzhou, Wuxi, Changzhou and Ningbo.
> 
> Ticket sales for high-speed rail lines will expand gradually within the main cities of Anhui, Jiangsu and Zhejiang provinces and Shanghai, which are under the jurisdiction of the Shanghai Railway Bureau, said Shen Xiaosheng, deputy director of the carrier's publicity department.
> 
> He said fares will fluctuate, but joint tickets will cost less than the total air and rail fares if sold separately.
> 
> China's high-speed rail service has been operating for two years and has had a broad, adverse effect on airlines' domestic business.
> 
> Areas that are getting high-speed rail service are also the most profitable for airlines. All three major State-owned airlines cited high-speed rail service as a factor affecting revenue in their financial reports.
> 
> Joint ticketing for airlines and high-speed rail lines could be a way for air carriers to profit from China's high-speed rail system, analysts said.
> 
> "High-speed rail services heavily affect the business of flights of less than 500 kilometers," said Yuan Huifang, deputy general manager of marketing and sales at Hainan Airlines. "But we want to find a way to cooperate with rail systems."
> 
> Yuan said joint ticketing can help both sides get more passengers.
> 
> However, it's not easy for airlines and railways to work together.
> 
> Hainan Airlines took almost one year to prepare for the program, and it was difficult to combine the two different ticketing systems, said Wang Yue, manager of product development at Hainan Airlines.
> 
> Also, joint operation requires convenient transfers, but few Chinese airports can meet that need. For that reason, Hainan Airlines will promote the program more heavily on international destinations rather than adding more domestic cities, Yuan said.
> 
> "I believe more railway stations and airports will be built together for joint operations," she added.
> 
> Carriers must improve their services to deal with the ongoing expansion of high-speed rail service, analysts said.
> 
> As much as 3,500 kilometers of new high-speed rail lines will be built in 2012. The four main north-south routes, including one between Beijing and Guangzhou, will be finished this year, the People's Daily reported in February.
> 
> The heaviest competition from high-speed rails won't come until 2013 or 2014, as most of the new lines won't go into service until the end of 2012, said Li Lei, an aviation analyst at CITIC Securities Co Ltd.
> 
> Airlines might abandon some feeder flights, which can be replaced by high-speed rail service, while adding flights to other routes, Li said.
> 
> http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2012-04/24/content_15124568.htm


So, in other words, it'd be like buying a ticket from Beijing to Nanjing, and simultaneously a train ticket from Nanjing to Shanghai? Is that where they're going with this?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Beijing-Hohhot* 19 trains, fastest T282/T283, 2 stops, 526 km, 8:30 - 62 km/h

*Beijing-Erenhot* 1 train K3, 4 stops, 834 km, 12:32 - 67 km/h

*Beijing-Taiyuan* 23 trains, fastest D2013, 1 stop, 508 km, 3:40 - 139 km/h

*Beijing-Xian* 11 trains, fastest D131, 12 stops, 1194 km, 9:07 - 131 km/h

*Beijing-Yichang* 2 trains, faster K49, 12 stops, 1421 km, 21:13 overnight - 67 km/h

*Beijing-Chongqing* 5 trains, fastest T9, 11 stops, 2079 km, 1:00:29 over one night - 85 km/h

*Beijing-Guiyang* 3 trains, faster T61, 13 stops, 2536 km, 1:04:11 over one night - 90 km/h

*Beijing-Zhuhai* no direct trains

*Beijing-Macao* no railway in Macao

*Beijing-Zhanjiang* 2 trains, faster T201/T204, 11 stops, 2782 km, 1:03:17 over one night - 102 km/h

*Beijing-Haikou* 1 train T201/T204, 13 stops, 3088 km, 1:07:36 over two nights - 98 km/h

*Beijing-Sanya* 1 train T201/T204, 15 stops, 3451 km, 1:11:02 over two nights - 99 km/h

*Beijing-Nanning* 2 trains, faster T5, 9 stops, 2566 km, 1:04:30 over one night - 90 km/h

*Beijing-Pingxiang* no direct trains


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Beijing-Yinchuan* 4 trains, fastest T277, 11 stops, 1222 km, 13:06 overnight - 93 km/h

*Beijing-Lanzhou* 5 trains, fastest Z55, 2 stops, 1565 km, 16:54 overnight - 93 km/h

*Beijing-Chengdu* 4 trains, fastest T7, 10 stops, 2117 km, 1:02:22 over one night - 80 km/h

*Beijing-Kunming* 2 trains, faster T61, 18 stops, 3174 km, 1:14:20 over two nights - 83 km/h


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Beijing-Xining* 2 trains, faster T27, 4 stops, 1793 km, 19:41 overnight - 91 km/h

*Beijing-Lhasa* 1 train T27, 7 stops, 3753 km, 1:19:51 over two nights - 86 km/h

*Beijing-Urumqi* 1 train T69, 18 stops, 3105 km, 1:09:51 over one night - 92 km/h

*Beijing-Alashankou* no direct trains

*Beijing-Yining* no direct trains


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Shanghai-Nanjing* 207 trains, fastest 7 G trains nonstop, incl. G2, 295 km, 1:07 - 264 km/h

*Shanghai-Jinan* 67 trains, fastest 6 G trains 1 stop, incl. G12, 912 km, 3:21 - 272 km/h

*Shanghai-Qingdao* 4 trains, fastest G222/G223, 7 stops, 1308 km, 6:25 - 204 km/h

*Shanghai-Tianjin* 26 trains, fastest G110, 5 stops, 1196 km, 4:47 - 250 km/h

*Shanghai-Beijing* 55 trains, fastest 2 incl. G2, 1 stop, 1318 km, 4:48 - 275 km/h

*Shanghai-Shenyang* 5 trains, fastest K516/K517, 21 stops, 2014 km, 1:01:29 over one night - 79 km/h


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Shanghai-Dalian* 1 train T132/T133, 18 stops, 2254 km, 23:49 overnight - 94 km/h

*Shanghai-Dandong* 1 train K188/K189, 31 stops, 2384 km, 1:11:28 over two nights - 67 km/h

*Shanghai-Changchun* 4 trains, fastest K56/K57, 23 stops, 2314 km, 1:04:50 over two nights - 80 km/h

*Shanghai-Jilin* 1 train K76/K77, 28 stops, 2494 km, 1:10:00 over two nights - 73 km/h

*Shanghai-Harbin* 1 train K56/K57, 24 stops, 2560 km, 1:07:44 over two nights - 81 km/h


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Shanghai-Manzhouli* no direct train - connections over 2:57

*Shanghai-Hefei* 31 trains, fastest D5456/D5457, 1 stop, 449 km, 2:28 - 182 km/h

*Shanghai-Zhengzhou* 17 trains, fastest D282/D283, 11 stops, 990 km, 6:52 - 144 km/h

*Shanghai-Shijiazhuang* 4 trains, fastest Z96/Z97, 1 stop, 1272 km, 11:00 overnight - 116 km/h

*Shanghai-Taiyuan* 2 trains, faster Z96/Z97, 3 stops, 1497 km, 13:17 overnight - 113 km/h

*Shanghai-Hohhot* 1 train T282/T283, 13 stops, 1993 km, 1:00:04 over one night - 83 km/h


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Shanghai-Xian* 10 trains, fastest Z92/Z93, 4 stops, 1509 km, 14:16 overnight - 106 km/h

*Shanghai-Yinchuan* 1 train K360/K361, 30 stops, 2315 km, 1:10:27 over one night - 67 km/h

*Shanghai-Lanzhou* 5 trains, fastest T164/T165, 6 stops, 2185 km, 21:11 overnight - 103 km/h

*Shanghai-Urumqi* 1 train T52/T53, 22 stops, 4077 km, 1:19:43 over two nights - 93 km/h

*Shanghai-Xining* 2 trains, faster T164/T165, 7 stops, 2413 km, 1:00:02 over one night - 100 km/h

*Shanghai-Lhasa* 1 train T164/T165, 10 stops, 4373 km, 1:23:47 over two nights - 92 km/h


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Shanghai-Wuhan* 22 trains, fastest D3006/D3007, 1 stop, 829 km, 5:03 - 164 km/h

*Shanghai-Yichang* 2 trains, faster K696/K697, 13 stops, 1173 km, 18:02 overnight - 65 km/h

*Shanghai-Chongqing* 3 trains, fastest K1152/K1153, 14 stops, 2027 km, 1:01:37 over one night - 79 km/h

*Shanghai-Chengdu* 5 trains, fastest K1157/K1157, 16 stops, 2159 km, 1:04:39 over one night - 75 km/h


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Shanghai-Hangzhou* 131 trains, fastest 4 G trains incl. G7309, nonstop, 169 km, 00:49 - 207 km/h

*Shanghai-Jiujiang* 2 trains, faster K751/K754, 10 stops, 952 km, 12:08 overnight - 78 km/h

*Shanghai-Nanchang* 10 trains, fastest D97, 7 stops, 813 km, 6:24 - 127 km/h

*Shanghai-Changsha* 4 trains, fastest D105, 12 stops, 1173 km, 9:16 - 127 km/h

*Shanghai-Guiyang* 6 trains, fastest K111, 18 stops, 2022 km, 1:02:37 over one night - 76 km/h

*Shanghai-Kunming* 3 trains, fastest K79, 22 stops, 2660 km, 1:13:01 over two nights - 72 km/h


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Shanghai-Ningbo* 24 trains, fastest D3113, 3 stops, 333 km, 2:53 - 116 km/h

*Shanghai-Wenzhou* 24 trains, fastest D5455/D5458, 4 stops, 603 km, 4:33 - 133 km/h

*Shanghai-Fuzhou* 18 trains, fastest D3107, 8 stops, 897 km, 6:43 - 134 km/h

*Shanghai-Xiamen* 3 trains, fastest D3201, 16 stops, 1154 km, 8:41 - 133 km/h

*Shanghai-Guangzhou* 4 trains, fastest T99, 2 stops, 1818 km, 15:57 overnight - 114 km/h

*Shanghai-Shenzhen* 2 trains, faster T211, 14 stops, 1684 km, 18:13 overnight - 94 km/h

*Shanghai-Hong Kong* 1 train T99, 3 stops, 1991 km, 18:36 overnight - 107 km/h

*Shanghai-Zhuhai* no direct trains

*Shanghai-Macao* no railway in Macao

*Shanghai-Zhanjiang* 2 trains, faster K511, 20 stops, 2268 km, 1:05:01 over one night - 78 km/h

*Shanghai-Haikou* 1 train K511, 22 stops, 2574 km, 1:09:51 over one night - 76 km/h

*Shanghai-Sanya* 1 train K511, 23 stops, 2937 km, 1:13:05 over one night - 79 km/h

*Shanghai-Nanning* 3 trains, fastest T81, 17 stops, 2052 km, 1:03:38 over one night - 74 km/h

*Shanghai-Pingxiang* no direct trains


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Guangzhou-Shenzhen* 153 trains, fastest 3 nonstop G trains incl. G1001, 102 km, 00:32 - 191 km/h

*Guangzhou-Shantou* 2 trains, faster T8357/T8360, 5 stops, 527 km, 6:22 - 83 km/h

*Guangzhou-Xiamen* 2 trains, faster K232/K229, 9 stops, 850 km, 13:56 overnight - 61 km/h

*Guangzhou-Fuzhou* no direct trains - connections over 2:12.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Guangzhou-Nanchang* 8 trains, fastest T161/T160, 5 stops, 948 km, 10:33 overnight - 90 km/h

*Guangzhou-Jiujiang* 5 trains, fastest K309/K312, 8 stops, 1083 km, 13:51 overnight - 78 km/h

*Guangzhou-Hangzhou* 4 trains, fastest T170, 12 stops, 1592 km, 16:50 overnight - 95 km/h

*Guangzhou-Ningbo* 1 train K210/K211, 16 stops, 1783 km, 23:57 overnight - 74 km/h

*Guangzhou-Wenzhou* 2 trains, faster K326/K327, 20 stops, 1682 km, 22:15 overnight - 76 km/h

*Guangzhou-Shanghai* 5 trains, fastest T100A, 2 stops, 1818 km, 15:57 overnight - 114 km/h


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Guangzhou-Nanjing* 2 trains, faster K222/K223, 17 stops, 1803 km, 1:00:06 over one night - 75 km/h

*Guangzhou-Jinan* 2 trains, faster T180, 14 stops, 1998 km, 21:46 overnight - 92 km/h

*Guangzhou-Qingdao* 1 train T161/T160, 20 stops, 2477 km, 1:05:07 over one night - 85 km/h


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Guangzhou-Changsha* 124 trains, fastest 2 nonstop G trains incl. G1004, 707 km, 2:19 - 305 km/h

*Guangzhou-Wuhan* 86 trains, fastest G1004, 1 stop, 1069 km, 3:40 - 292 km/h

*Guangzhou-Hefei* 1 train K309/K312, 14 stops, 1410 km, 19:18 overnight - 73 km/h

*Guangzhou-Zhengzhou* 17 trains, fastest T16, 2 stops, 1605 km, 14:58 overnight - 107 km/h

*Guangzhou-Shijiazhuang* 7 trains, fastest T202, 5 stops, 2017 km, 18:26 overnight - 109 km/h

*Guangzhou-Beijing* 6 trains, fastest T16, 3 stops, 2294 km, 20:37 overnight - 111 km/h


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Guangzhou-Tianjin* 3 trains, fastest T124/T121, 14 stops, 2404 km, 1:00:49 over one night - 97 km/h

*Guangzhou-Shenyang* 3 trains, fastest T14/T11, 13 stops, 3011 km, 1:05:23 over two nights - 102 km/h

*Guangzhou-Dalian* no direct trains - at least 2:00 connection


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Guangzhou-Changchun* 2 trains, faster T236/T237, 22 stops, 3401 km, 1:11:09 over two nights - 97 km/h

*Guangzhou-Jilin* no direct trains - at least 2:40 connection

*Guangzhou-Harbin* 1 train T236/T237, 23 stops, 3647 km, 1:13:26 over two nights - 97 km/h


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Guangzhou-Guiyang*5 trains, fastest K64/K65, 10 stops, 1552 km, 20:26 overnight - 76 km/h

*Guangzhou-Yichang* 3 trains, fastest K932/K933, 9 stops, 1245 km, 17:04 overnight - 73 km/h

*Guangzhou-Chongqing* 8 trains, fastest K685/K688, 12 stops, 1697 km, 20:45 overnight - 82 km/h

*Guangzhou-Xian* 6 trains, fastest T264/T265, 3 stops, 2116 km, 21:18 overnight - 99 km/h

*Guangzhou-Taiyuan* 1 train K238/K239, 23 stops, 2506 km, 1:10:36 over two nights - 72 km/h

*Guangzhou-Hohhot* 1 train K600/K597, 31 stops, 2947 km, 1:16:02 over two nights - 74 km/h


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Guangzhou-Nanning* 5 trains, fastest K365/K364, 9 stops, 809 km, 12:23 overnight - 65 km/h

*Guangzhou-Kunming* 3 trains, fastest K230/K231, 15 stops, 1666 km, 1:00:39 over one night - 68 km/h

*Guangzhou-Chengdu* 4 trains, fastest K192/K193, 17 stops, 2233 km, 1:06:55 over one night - 72 km/h

*Guangzhou-Yinchuan* 1 train K1296/K1297, 32 stops, 2982 km, 1:21:03 over two nights - 66 km/h

*Guangzhou-Lanzhou* 3 trains, fastest T264/T265, 4 stops, 2792 km, 1:03:45 over one night - 101 km/h

*Guangzhou-Urumqi* 1 train T38/T35, 29 stops, 4684 km, 2:06:13 over three nights - 86 km/h

*Guangzhou-Lhasa* 1 train T264/T265, 8 stops, 4980 km, 2:06:11 over two nights - 92 km/h


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Guangzhou-Zhuhai* 27 trains, fastest D7601, 3 stops, 93 km, 0:48 - 118 km/h

*Guangzhou-Macao* no rail in Macao

*Guangzhou-Zhanjiang* 3 trains, fastest T201/T204, 4 stops, 488 km, 6:11 - 79 km/h

*Guangzhou-Haikou* 3 trains, fastest T201/T204, 6 stops, 794 km, 10:30 overnight - 76 km/h

*Guangzhou-Sanya* 3 trains, fastest T201/T204, 8 stops, 1157 km, 13:56 overnight - 83 km/h

*Guangzhou-Pingxiang* no direct trains - connections over 2:05


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> per news, Dalian-Shenyang-Harbin HSR will open by year-end instead of July 1st.


Is Wuhan-Zhengzhou still planned for July?

Completed a benchmark for the network performance before the 2012 extensions open - though I suspect some errors here and there. There is the proclaimed aim to connect all province and autonomous capitals except 2 of Lhasa and Urumqi to Beijing in 8 hours....


----------



## hmmwv

big-dog said:


> per news, Dalian-Shenyang-Harbin HSR will open by year-end instead of July 1st.


That's strange, according to the news the line is currently undergoing joint calibration and testing, normally it only takes about a month before cold/hot rolling tests begin, and trial run should be another month away. Not sure why they'd wait under winter starts to put it into operation. Ideally you'd want to first run the line when weather is fairly mild, gradually allowing various system to adapt the the dropping temperature.


----------



## everywhere

*CNR Changchun aims to double exports to $1B
*(China Daily USA, May 31)



> CNR Changchun Railway Vehicles Co Ltd, China's largest producer of rolling stock and urban rail cars, aims to double its annual export revenue to $1 billion within five years, General Manager Lu Xiwei told China Daily on Wednesday.
> 
> Located in Changchun, the capital of Jilin province, CNR Changchun is a subsidiary of China CNR Corp Ltd, the country's second-largest train producer.
> 
> Its product range includes high-speed rail cars and subways.
> Exports will generate 30 percent of revenue in the next five years, according to the company.
> 
> CNR Changchun "is now strongly competitive in production and manufacturing technology in the international market, and our next step is to make greater efforts to explore foreign markets to maintain good momentum for exports," Lu said.
> 
> In April, the company signed a contract with Bangladesh to supply traction inverters and network control systems for diesel railcar trains.
> 
> The deal is seen as a signal of China's progress in exporting core rail technology.
> 
> Amid a weak world economy, many countries are eager to attract foreign investment to establish joint ventures in their local markets. These ventures are especially attractive when recipient countries can obtain advanced technology and promote local employment.
> 
> 
> 
> Lu said the company is researching the feasibility of exporting technology to, and localizing production in, South America, South Africa and Southeast Asia.
> 
> "Exports of intangible assets, including capital and technology, could yield higher profits than just exporting finished products, Lu said.
> 
> "We have realized that it's very difficult to develop in foreign markets only through product exports, so the trend will be a shift from product exports to technology and capital," Lu said.
> 
> Establishing joint ventures in foreign markets helps obtain orders in those markets, Lu said.
> 
> 
> CNR Changchun has joint ventures in Iran and Australia that design and produce rail and subway cars.
> 
> Taking into consideration the operating risks, locally manufactured products "will be priced higher than those exported", Lu said.
> 
> Zhou Chuanhe, deputy general manager for overseas operations, said the company's market share in the industry will grow significantly as it establishes factories overseas.
> 
> "We will gradually tap into the high-end markets, as we mature in terms of technology, output and management in foreign markets," Zhou said.
> 
> "As China's rolling stock industry develops, Chinese products will account for 30 percent of the global market, competing with other industrial giants including Siemens and Alstom," Lu said.
> 
> CNR Changchun's exports now account for 65 percent of the nation's rolling stock exports, with more than 4,000 rail cars so far shipped to countries including Brazil, Australia and Thailand.


http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2012-05/31/content_15431375.htm


----------



## Sopomon

everywhere said:


> *CNR Changchun aims to double exports to $1B
> *(China Daily USA, May 31)
> 
> 
> 
> http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2012-05/31/content_15431375.htm


Again waith the HSR exports, I just don't get this awful reporting. 
(Also, the new Waratah trains are lovely)


----------



## everywhere

*NE China rail construction halted over environmental violations*
(Shanghai Daily/Xinhua, June 1)




> HARBIN, June 1 (Xinhua) -- The Ministry of Environmental Protection has brought construction on a railway in northeast China's Heilongjiang province to a halt due to environmental violations, local authorities said Friday.
> 
> Further inspections will be conducted for the Harbin-Qiqihar passenger railway, the Heilongjiang provincial environmental protection bureau said.
> 
> Construction on the railway has violated several parts of the Environmental Impact Assessment Law, with some areas under construction lacking proper impact assessment approval, according to the bureau's investigation.
> 
> Several construction sites have been moved without authorization, threatening the Zhalong Sate Nature Reserve, a major habitat for cranes, according to the investigation.
> 
> The ministry has asked the builders to submit all environmental impact assessment paperwork before Aug. 1.
> 
> Construction on the 286-km-long railway began on July 5, 2009.



http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/article_xinhua.asp?id=74507


----------



## hmmwv

So it'll be business as usual as soon as the environmental impact study is downloaded from the Internet.


----------



## everywhere

*Russia-China cooperation on railways has huge potential: Russian official*
(Shanghai Daily/Xinhua, June 2)




> SOCHI, Russia, June 2 (Xinhua) -- Russia-China cooperation on development of high-speed rail and a trans-Eurasian rail corridor has "huge potential, the president of Russian Railways (RZD) said here Friday.
> 
> Under a government strategic plan, Russia will build by 2030 some 20,000 km of new railways, including 5,000 high-speed lines, Vladimir Yakunin told Xinhua on the sidelines of an international railway forum.
> 
> "Russia is expected to develop a railway network, including high-speed rail lines, from Kazan and Yekaterinburg (in central Russia) to Khabarovsk and Vladivostok (in the Far East region)," Yakunin said.
> 
> "In this field, we are willing to cooperate with China's railways and financial institutions," he added.
> 
> "China has rich experience in high-speed rail construction, which creates rooms for further cooperation between the two countries in this field," he added.
> 
> Meanwhile, Yakunin admitted that there are some delays in implementing a memorandum of understanding signed by Russia and China in 2009 on joint development of high-speed railway system in Russia.
> 
> There is no change in Russia's stance on the construction of high-speed rail, but the state-owned RZD is still seeking suitable finance and profit modes, he explained.
> 
> Yakunin, who will soon visit China with a Russian delegation led by President Vladimir Putin next week, said that he would meet with China's railway authorities on further bilateral cooperation.
> 
> On the development of a rail corridor from the southwest Chinese city of Chongqing to Germany's Duisburg, Yakunin said that China and Russia have signed cooperation documents and formed joint ventures.
> 
> Last July, the new route was officially launched in Chongqing. It offers a major shortcut to traditional sea trade routes and shorten travel time to Europe from about 36 days by container ship to just 13 days by freight train.
> 
> "This is the first step of the corridor construction," Yakunin said.
> 
> The train services are expected to be increased to once per day in the future as Chongqing's exports to Europe increase. Currently the train leaves Chongqing for Duisburg once a month.
> 
> Russia is now pondering the future transit fee policy following the development of the route and will later coordinate with the Chinese side, he said.
> 
> Besides, Yakunin said the new trans-Eurasian rail corridor is taking shape, thanks to the joint efforts of Russia, China and Kazakhstan.
> 
> Amid global economic uncertainties, such a corridor will boost the global and regional economy and enhance the competitiveness of countries of the railway routes, he said.



http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/article_xinhua.asp?id=74624


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Are there any plans for high speed railway Harbin-Mudanjiang?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Are there any plans for high speed railway Harbin-Mudanjiang?


Absolutely, Harbin-Mudanjiang ICL was part of the five year long term plan but has been stalled in 2011. Currently an extension from Mudanjiang to Suifenhe (139km, 200-250km/h) on the Russian border is under construction. I'd imagine the Harbin-Mudanjiang section won't start until the Harbin-Qiqihar line is ready.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Then how about Harbin-Jiamusi-Boli? That would need a new bridge on Heilongjiang....


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Then how about Harbin-Jiamusi-Boli? That would need a new bridge on Heilongjiang....


The 345km, 250km/h Harbin-Jiamusi PDL was approved by NDRC in July 2010, it's a 12th five year plan project that is currently in the regulatory approval and design finalization phase, actual construction probably will not start until after the Harbin-Qiqihar line is operational.


----------



## hmmwv

According to sources inside the Wuhan Railway Bureau, MOR examined the possibility of operating speed resumption on the Wuhan-Guangzhou HSR earlier this year, and it's now believed that CRH trains will once again operating at 350km/h on that line starting sometime in the second half of this year.

http://www.yicai.com/news/2012/06/1788916.html


----------



## chornedsnorkack

What shall be the operating speed of Wuhan-Zhengzhou high speed railway, as of 1st of July 2012?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> What shall be the operating speed of Wuhan-Zhengzhou high speed railway, as of 1st of July 2012?


It's unlikely to start operation on July 1st since joint calibration and testing won't start until June 20th, it'll take a few months before trial operation can start, but generally speaking it takes less than six month to start commercial operation. Currently it's only stated that the line is designed for 350km/h but no stated initial operating speed.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

What is the state of progress of Wuhan-Xianning Metropolis Intercity Railway?


----------



## hmmwv

They are still doing infrastructure construction, here is a picture of the Xianning South station under construction. The goal is to start joint calibration by the end of the year.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

And has Wuhan-Yichang high speed railway been repaired?


----------



## gdolniak

*Halfen manager: all our products are made in Germany*

Following on the earlier reports about alleged substandard Helfen's products used in the construction of high speed railways.



> *Halfen manager: all our products are made in Germany*
> Staff Reporter 2012-06-09 09:22 (GMT+8)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A high-speed railway in Beijing. (File photo/Xinhua)
> 
> German building material maker Halfen has denied allegations that it sold low-quality products manufactured in China for high prices and said its Chinese division did not tamper with its product quality. The company believes that the allegations were made up by Chinese competitors who envy its huge market share in the country.
> 
> "All our products were made in Germany," said Richard Wachter, the general manager of the company's German headquarters. The media reports that claimed tests on Halfen's case-in channels failed to pass fire-resistant and stretch standard were "irresponsible" and "unprofessional," the manager said. He suggested more details about the tests should be published and that the company may take legal action against media who spread the allegations, according to Chinese web portal Sina.
> 
> He also showed his faith in the staff of the Chinese division, who allegedly manufactured products in China without the knowledge of the German headquarters, according a person with the state-run China Railway 12th Bureau Group. The headquarters also do not believe that their Chinese arm would do anything illegal to secure bids for high-speed rail projects.
> 
> Halfen believes the allegations were fabricated by its Chinese competitors, hoping to erode its 70% market share in China's case-in channel market, which is worth more than 1 billion yuan (US$160 million), according to Sina.
> 
> http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20120609000002&cid=1102&MainCatID=0


----------



## Silly_Walks

"The company believes that the allegations were made up by Chinese competitors who envy its huge market share in the country."

Yeah, that's what people here already predicted as well.


----------



## skyridgeline

Silly_Walks said:


> "The company believes that the allegations were made up by *Chinese competitors* who envy its huge market share in the country."
> 
> Yeah, that's what people here already predicted as well.


What "Chinese competitors"?

I hope Halfen takes legal actions to keep the media honest.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> And has Wuhan-Yichang high speed railway been repaired?


Almost completely forgotten about that line, Wuhan-Yichang finished its joint calibration testing in early May, trial run started on May 16th and it's suppose to last one month. So I assume official opening will happen in the next week or two.

Here are some pics taken during trial operations.


----------



## hmmwv

Alright let's see some stations on the Wuhan-Yichang Railway.

First is Yichang East.


----------



## hmmwv

Zhijiang North.


















When it was under construction.


----------



## hmmwv

Tianmen South


----------



## hmmwv

Hanchuan Station


----------



## hmmwv

Xiantao West


----------



## hmmwv

Jingzhou Station


----------



## Northridge

Funny signature *hmmwv*.


----------



## Sopomon

These smaller stations are really bland...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

On the existing slow speed railway, the fastest train Wuhan-Yichang is K1024/K1021.
For 372 km Wuhan-Yichang, it takes 4:36. Stands 30 minutes in Yichang East, then proceeds to Lichuan (3:32 for 275 km), thence to Wanzhou (1:33 for 102 km), and then to Chongqing in 6:38 for 399 km (via Liangping, Dazhou, Quxian, Guangan and Huaying).

What shall be the trip time on Wuhan-Yichang high speed railway?


----------



## hmmwv

> 动车27对，南京南、上海虹桥、南昌到宜昌东各两对。管内20对（包括确认车一对）。普速：福州至重庆北，温州至成都一对，z3.z23延长至宜昌 东，t251平移上汉宜。襄阳东有三趟换班，k389.k351，k1155,七月一号调图


The fastest train should finish the trip in approximately 2 hours. So far according to the new operation chart scheduled to be released on July 1st the Wuhan-Yichang Railway will have 27 pairs of D trains, 20 will be operating within Wuhan Railway Bureau, Nanjing South, Shanghai South, and Nanchang will each get two pairs of D trains to Yichang East. 

On the conventional train side there will be Fuzhou-Chongqing North, Wenzhou-Chengdu, Z3 and Z23 now goes to Yichang East, T251 will switch to the new line, also are K389, K351 and K1155 to Xiangyang.


----------



## hmmwv

The donkey is testing on Wuhan-Yichang line on a daily basis now.


----------



## hmmwv

Longyan-Xiamen Railway is scheduled to open on June 30th. High speed testing started on May 23rd with a CRH CIT doing the testing, total trip time from Longyan to Xiamen North (171km) is 1 hour 4 minutes.

This pic is taken on May 24th of the test train running on the Longyan Viaduct over the downtown area.


----------



## hmmwv

Interestingly before that the very rare "Nanchang Railway Bureau Track Inspection Vehicle" was also spotted doing testing on the Longyan-Xiamen Line.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> Longyan-Xiamen Railway is scheduled to open on June 30th. High speed testing started on May 23rd with a CRH CIT doing the testing, total trip time from Longyan to Xiamen North (171km) is 1 hour 4 minutes.


How many direct trains daily shall travel Longyan-Fuzhou? Longyan-Shanghai?


----------



## China Hand

Sopomon said:


> These smaller stations are really bland...


They are basically remote commuter rail stations that service very few passengers.

The Sanmenxia (Xi'an-Zhengzhou) station has, at most, a dozen passengers who embark.

It would be nice if all these small stations had the grandeur of Wuhan Station.

@hmmwv
Thanks for your detailed updates!


----------



## China Hand

hmmwv said:


> I generally agree with you, but the situation in China is slightly different as the airlines' on time departure record is pretty crappy. So for the ~5 hour Beijing-Shanghai line it's actually very competitive with airlines.


On a given flight, you arrive one hour or more before departure. The flight is often delayed leaving the gate. Then one can sit in the plane waiting for clearance to take off, for as long as an hour or two.

So when you add in the time spent in the lounge, in the plane, on the tarmac and waiting for clearance, a 2 or 3 hour flight can stretch to 5 or 6 or 7 hours. If you make a connection you can easily spend an entire day.

HSR shines as it removes nearly all delays.

Perhaps a few trains I have taken have left one or two minutes late.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> So when you add in the time spent in the lounge, in the plane, on the tarmac and waiting for clearance, a 2 or 3 hour flight can stretch to 5 or 6 or 7 hours. If you make a connection you can easily spend an entire day.
> 
> HSR shines as it removes nearly all delays.


The main east-west line Nanjing-Wuhan is unfortunately slow at mere 250 km/h. But it seems to be poorly used.

From Wuhan to Guangzhou, 43 G trains leave daily. Fastest for the 968 km 3 express trains (1 stop) at 3:41 - non-expresses begin at 4:01, slowest 4:31.

From Wuhan to Shanghai, 15 D trains leave daily. Fastest for the 829 km is 1 express trains (1 stop) at 5:10 - non-expresses begin at 5:47, slowest 6:24.

Could it make sense to add a few more express D trains (2 stops) to travel Shanghai-Wuhan under 5:30?


----------



## Silly_Walks

chornedsnorkack said:


> The main east-west line Nanjing-Wuhan is unfortunately slow at mere 250 km/h. But it seems to be poorly used.


Does anyone know what the reasoning was behind not making this 350 km/h line?

Maybe then it would also be better used.


----------



## gramercy

id guess terrain


----------



## hmmwv

The line goes through Anhui Province, which has its fair share of hills, also there probably simply don't have the demand for 350km/h trains between Wuhan and Shanghai. But I agree as a major west-east trunk line it should be made 350km/h capable, having ridden it doesn't seem that much different from Shanghai-Beijing line, so maybe some years down the road it's possible to upgrade it to 350 or even 380km/h. Also this trunk line's bottleneck is between Wuhan and Chongqing, which only allows 200km/h travel and it's not a PDL.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

How about time? Nanjing-Hefei was the first high speed railway built in China (Qinhuangdao-Shenyang did not open at 250 km/h).


----------



## NCT

I think the main problem is the number of stations along the route and lack of ability to segregate slow and fast services.

Also the Nanjing - Shanghai part of Wuhan - Shanghai is the regional PDL rather than the Shanghai - Beijing HSR. At Nanjing South trains can go onto the HSR tracks but not without crossing other train paths.


----------



## peacedot

Anyone has the news and photos of the Shanghai - Kunming CRH that is under construction? I heard that the whole line will be open on the year of 2015. Thanks for that.


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> The main east-west line Nanjing-Wuhan is unfortunately slow at mere 250 km/h. But it seems to be poorly used.
> 
> From Wuhan to Guangzhou, 43 G trains leave daily. Fastest for the 968 km 3 express trains (1 stop) at 3:41 - non-expresses begin at 4:01, slowest 4:31.
> 
> From Wuhan to Shanghai, 15 D trains leave daily. Fastest for the 829 km is 1 express trains (1 stop) at 5:10 - non-expresses begin at 5:47, slowest 6:24.
> 
> Could it make sense to add a few more express D trains (2 stops) to travel Shanghai-Wuhan under 5:30?


I do not know if Shanghai-Wuhan generates that sort of volume via either rail or air. Certainly it isn't on the scale of Beijing-Shanghai or Hong Kong-Shanghai.

However, most small, out of the way airports in China, and Wuhan is not a small city, have services albeit delayed as mentioned, to many nearby and far-flung cities. So it is possible to fly from provincial capitals or even smaller cities to many points in China and get about with ease.

There is a history of providing access to transportation when the demand is very very low.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> How about time? Nanjing-Hefei was the first high speed railway built in China (Qinhuangdao-Shenyang did not open at 250 km/h).


Nanjing-Hefei didn't open until April 2008, a year earlier CRH trains running on upgraded Shanghai-Nanjing line already travel at a maximum speed of 250km/h near Anting.


----------



## China Hand

Two queries for those who may know:

What is the progress of the Zhengzhou-Wuhan leg?
What is the progress of the Xi'an-Datong line?

Projected date of construction completion?
Joint calibration and testing?
Donkey testing? High speed testing?
Trial Runs?

I am new to much of this terminology.


----------



## hmmwv

China Hand said:


> Two queries for those who may know:
> 
> What is the progress of the Zhengzhou-Wuhan leg?
> What is the progress of the Xi'an-Datong line?
> 
> Projected date of construction completion?
> Joint calibration and testing?
> Donkey testing? High speed testing?
> Trial Runs?
> 
> I am new to much of this terminology.


Zhengzhou-Wuhan will start joint calibration and testing on June 20th, opening to commercial operation will be later this year. Xi'an-Datong PDL construction is going full speed ahead after significant slow downs last year, the line is expected to be finished by 2014 and operation starts in late 2014 or early 2015.


----------



## hmmwv

From June 21st until August 31st Shanghai-Nanjing and Shanghai Hangzhou HSR will start summer promotional rate on certain trains and seats. Fares for business class seats will be discounted up to 30% and VIP seats up to 10%. No news about discount on 2nd class seats presumably because high demand.

http://news.sina.com.cn/o/2012-06-13/080424583812.shtml


----------



## hmmwv

MOR is set to increase railway infrastructure construction funding by RMB 34 billion to a total of RMB 440 billion. Current data shows May 2012 investment is already RMB 50 billion more than April's figure. The increase is mostly concentrated on accelerating construction of ongoing HSR projects. MOR's original plan was to finish the eight trunk lines by the end of 2012 but it may be delayed by a year. Beijing-Guangzhou HSR was suppose to be finished by October but now it's slipped to by the end of the year.

http://finance.sina.com.cn/roll/20120616/005212328329.shtml


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> Beijing-Guangzhou HSR was suppose to be finished by October but now it's slipped to by the end of the year.
> 
> http://finance.sina.com.cn/roll/20120616/005212328329.shtml


Which is currently the last link of Beijing-Longhua due to open? Beijing-Shijiazhuang, or the recently delayed Wuhan-Zhengzhou?


----------



## FM 2258

hmmwv said:


> Hanchuan Station


Is this a high speed rail line?


----------



## foxmulder

Well, it is definitely not one of 350+ km/h designed main trunk lines. The new lines are balastless.


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> Is this a high speed rail line?


Wuhan-Yichang is a 200+km/h line, not a PDL, so it's a mix line that has D, T, K, or even G trains on it, but also shares track with freight traffic.


----------



## China Hand

hmmwv said:


> Wuhan-Yichang is a 200+km/h line, not a PDL, so it's a mix line that has D, T, K, or even G trains on it, but also shares track with freight traffic.


Does it have NNNN trains as well? Not that fast at all, then.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> Almost completely forgotten about that line, Wuhan-Yichang finished its joint calibration testing in early May, trial run started on May 16th and it's suppose to last one month. So I assume official opening will happen in the next week or two.


In which week specifically?

Have the ticket prices been disclosed?


----------



## hmmwv

Wuhan-Yichang will official open on July 1st, when the new MOR operating schedule comes into effect. Tickets probably will go on sale next week (25th). There is no news about the prices yet.


----------



## hkskyline

hmmwv said:


> From June 21st until August 31st Shanghai-Nanjing and Shanghai Hangzhou HSR will start summer promotional rate on certain trains and seats. Fares for business class seats will be discounted up to 30% and VIP seats up to 10%. No news about discount on 2nd class seats presumably because high demand.
> 
> http://news.sina.com.cn/o/2012-06-13/080424583812.shtml


*Beijing-Shanghai high-speed train ticket prices cut*

BEIJING, June 17 (Xinhua) -- Travelers will enjoy discounts when buying business-class tickets and premium seats on Beijing-Shanghai high-speed trains from June 27, according to the Ministry of Railways.

Business-class tickets for the 85 high-speed trains operating on the country's busiest railway line will be reduced by 10 to 20 percent, while tickets for premium seats will be cut by 10 percent, according to a statement posted on the website of the ministry.

After the price cut, business-class tickets will be lowered to between 1,400 yuan (222.22 U.S. dollars) and 1,575 yuan from the current 1,750 yuan. Prices of premium seats will stand at 949 yuan, down from the current 1,055 yuan.

The discounts will vary according to different trains, the time of ticket purchases and the day of departure, according to the statement.

The ministry's move aims to attract more passengers to business class, which has been suffering from low attendance.

However, Zhao Jian, professor at the Beijing Jiaotong University, said the new policy may have little effect as the discounts are not big enough.

He suggested that railway authorities instead adopt a floating pricing system like airline companies to maintain competitiveness.


----------



## Woonsocket54

Zhengzhou East 









site: http://henan.people.com.cn/news/2012/06/19/624907.html


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> Longyan-Xiamen Railway is scheduled to open on June 30th.


Thus the day before 1st of July opening of Wuhan-Yichang.

Have the schedules of Xiamen-Longyan been disclosed?


----------



## gdolniak

*高清：南京高铁站建成即废 被网友称“奇葩”*

Pictures of abandoned, new high speed rail station at Zijin, Shandong



> *高清：南京高铁站建成即废 被网友称“奇葩”*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://news.qq.com/a/20120621/000296.htm#p=1


----------



## Sopomon

gdolniak said:


> Pictures of abandoned, new high speed rail station at Zijin, Shandong


Abandoned?


----------



## FM 2258

foxmulder said:


> Well, it is definitely not one of 350+ km/h designed main trunk lines. The new lines are balastless.


Looks like it's one of the upgraded lines. The overhead wires haven't been installed yet. 




hmmwv said:


> Wuhan-Yichang is a 200+km/h line, not a PDL, so it's a mix line that has D, T, K, or even G trains on it, but also shares track with freight traffic.


That's cool. I guess this line will use CHR1 trains since the top speed is 200km/h(125mph)?


----------



## sand7

*Kunming-Vientiane Line*

Anyone has any updates about Kunming to Vientiane Line? My google search result, this line is suspendedhno:


----------



## yaohua2000

gdolniak said:


> Pictures of abandoned, new high speed rail station at Zijin, Shandong


"Zijinshan Dong", not "Zijin, Shandong".


----------



## chornedsnorkack

yaohua2000 said:


> "Zijinshan Dong", not "Zijin, Shandong".


Seems that it is on an unopened connecting track between Nanjing-Shanghai high speed railway and Nanjing South railway station.

Does the track via Zijinshan Station also go through Xianlin Station on the way to Shanghai?


----------



## hmmwv

Both Xianlin and Zijinshan East are considered "reserve" stations, they weren't even suppose to open in the first place, but rather built because it's much easier and cheaper to build now than later when the area is more developed. As fast as the Xianlin University Town and its suburbs grow, in a few years those stations will have enough traffic to actually "open."


----------



## FM 2258

^^

That's a smart idea to build the stations beforehand. 

Are there any videos out there for the Guangzhen'gang XLR and the Guangzhou to Zhuhai Intercity rail? I'm curious to see what those lines look like.


----------



## China Hand

Woonsocket54 said:


> Zhengzhou East
> 
> site: http://henan.people.com.cn/news/2012/06/19/624907.html


I was in the Xi'an North this weekend and it's small compared to Wuhan and Zhengzhou East.

Standing in the middle of one of these is like being at an airport terminal.


----------



## China Hand

Woonsocket54 said:


> Zhengzhou East
> 
> site: http://henan.people.com.cn/news/2012/06/19/624907.html


I was in the Xi'an North this weekend and it's small compared to Wuhan and Zhengzhou East.

Standing in the middle of one of these is like being at an airport terminal.



hmmwv said:


> Wuhan-Yichang will official open on July 1st, when the new MOR operating schedule comes into effect. Tickets probably will go on sale next week (25th). There is no news about the prices yet.


Usually about .46-.51 CNY per km of 2nd class travel.

291km X .46/.51 = 134/148 CNY one way, 2nd class.


----------



## doc7austin

This is my very first post in this forum.
I would like to add some videos, maps, and photos to this thread about High-Speed-Rail in China.

Below you can see a map of rail lines I recently travelled on.
In this post I am going to present a number of experiences on this line by long videos.











*Beijing South – Tianjin 300km/h*
covered later


*Beijing South – Shanghai Hongqiao (Jinghu PDL) 300km/h*


This video was taken in July of 2011.



This video was taken in May of 2012.

*
Shanghai Hongqiao - Hangzhou (Huhang PDL) 300 km/h*
covered later


*Shanghai South – Hangzhou South (Huhang Railway Line) 140 km/h*
covered later


*Hangzhou South – Ningbo (Xiaoyong Railway Line) 140 km/h*


Video was taken in June of 2012. The old track of the Xiaoyong Line was used because the new Xiaoyong PDL was still under construction.


*Ningbo – Wenzhou South (Yongtaiwen PDL) 200 km/h*


Video was taken in June of 2012.


*Shanghai – Xian (Jinghu and Longhai Railway Line) 140 km/h*
covered later


*Xian – Longxi (Longhai Railway Line) 140 km/h*
covered later

*
Longxi – Lanzhou (Longhai Line) 140 km/h*


Video was taken in May of 2012.
The Xuzhou - Lanzhou High-Speed Railway was still under construction.


*Lanzhou – Zhongwei (Baolan Railway Line) 140 km/h*
covered later


*Zhongwei – Taiyuan (New Railway Line) 160 km/h*
covered later


*Taiyuan – Shijiazhuang (Shitai New Line) 160 km/h*
covered later


*Shijiazhuang – Beijing West (Jingguang Railway Line) 140 km/h*
covered later

*
Beijing North - Yanqing (Jingbao Railway Line) 120 km/h*
covered later


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Those videos are so awesome, these are exactly what I want to see here. Thanks for your good work *doc7austin*. Cool username.


----------



## hmmwv

That's some great videos! Thanks for sharing. 

BTW it's a shame most videos seem to miss the Dashengguan Bridge just before arrival at Nanjing.


----------



## doc7austin

> miss the Dashengguan Bridge just before arrival at Nanjing.


There is an extra video covering this bridge, of course.
The video is composed of two recordings (one done on the G1 train in direction Beijing-Shanghai and one done on the D34 Sleeper Train Shanghai-Beijing).


----------



## hmmwv

^^ You DA MAN!


----------



## Northridge

^^Yes, great videos.


----------



## kw0943

I am new to the website

I know that there has been rumors to increase the 300km/h trains to 350/380 km/h. Is it going to be for all trains or only Beijing-Shanghai and Wuhan-Guangdong? Also, are there any other plans to increase the currently 200km/h trains to 250 km/h? From what I know that after the crash, all 250 km/h trains has been scaled back to 200 km/h.


----------



## yaohua2000

kw0943 said:


> I am new to the website
> 
> I know that there has been rumors to increase the 300km/h trains to 350/380 km/h. Is it going to be for all trains or only Beijing-Shanghai and Wuhan-Guangdong? Also, are there any other plans to increase the currently 200km/h trains to 250 km/h? From what I know that after the crash, all 250 km/h trains has been scaled back to 200 km/h.


No one knows, except Sheng Guangzu.


----------



## dao123

doc7austin

Not only do your videos show the high-speed rail in China, they also show the beautiful landscape.

Thank you.


----------



## foxmulder

Thanks doc7austin


----------



## chornedsnorkack

yaohua2000 said:


> No one knows, except Sheng Guangzu.


How about the vice premier in charge of energy, telecommunications and transportation - since 2008 already, Zhang Dejiang, who already was the boss of Liu Zhijun. What has his attitude been to replacement of Liu Zhijun and to slowdown campaigns (and speedups in Liu Zhijun´s time)?

Zhang Dejiang has since March been replacing Bo Xilai in Chongqing. How does he manage to be Vice Premier while away?

Should China get a new Vice Premier in charge of energy, telecommunications and transportations on grounds that the old one is busy elsewhere?


----------



## lookback718

sand7 said:


> Anyone has any updates about Kunming to Vientiane Line? My google search result, this line is suspendedhno:


 Kunming to Vientiane is on ice until the Thai’s agree to Bangkok – Vientiane. The Thai’s have currently delayed approving this project due to the government being pre-occupied with the clean up from the floods and also domestic political infighting.

On the plus side though the Thai’s have recently approved the building of a high speed ~200kmph link from Bangkok to Chang Mi which is likely to have significant Chinese investment and technical assistance. The thai’s are also still planning the Nong Khai link which would meet up eventually with Vientiane.

It’s likely that this link is not moving anywhere fast as politically as it is seen as benefiting Thaksin Shinawatra – who is not currently in power....

That said there is significant bi-partisan support for the Bangkok – Vientiane – Kunming link in Thailand and with Thailand so politically divided that is saying something.

So, wait to hear for Thia news...and from that you will hear Laos news....basically Laos is ready to go.. just waiting for the green light [or red-shirt ok] for Thailand.


First post...please be nice


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> How about the vice premier in charge of energy, telecommunications and transportation - since 2008 already, Zhang Dejiang, who already was the boss of Liu Zhijun. What has his attitude been to replacement of Liu Zhijun and to slowdown campaigns (and speedups in Liu Zhijun´s time)?
> 
> Zhang Dejiang has since March been replacing Bo Xilai in Chongqing. How does he manage to be Vice Premier while away?
> 
> Should China get a new Vice Premier in charge of energy, telecommunications and transportations on grounds that the old one is busy elsewhere?


Zhang's Chongqing post is temporary and in name only, the day to day operation of the city is still being handled by Huang Qifan.


----------



## kw0943

My question was, are there any trains operating at 250 km/h in China.

I am asking this question because websites say that the operating speed for Beijing-Shanghai is 250km/h or 300 km/h, but some websites say that all trains that were operating at 250km/h has been lowered to 200 km/h.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

kw0943 said:


> My question was, are there any trains operating at 250 km/h in China.
> 
> I am asking this question because websites say that the operating speed for Beijing-Shanghai is 250km/h or 300 km/h, but some websites say that all trains that were operating at 250km/h has been lowered to 200 km/h.


All trains now operating at 250 km/h are on railways which were designed for 350 km/h or more and which still have trains operating at 300 km/h.

All railways which were operating at 250 km/h (since 2007 already) were slowed down to 200 km/h.


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> All trains now operating at 250 km/h are on railways which were designed for 350 km/h or more and which still have trains operating at 300 km/h.
> 
> All railways which were operating at 250 km/h (since 2007 already) were slowed down to 200 km/h.


Not entirely true.

The Xi'an-Zhenzhou line travels at 140km/h in the slower tunnels up to 291km/h on the flats.

The Wuhan-Guangzhou line was slowed to 304 km/h but more recently is up to 317 km/h in places.

I believe they are seeking a 'sweet spot' where costs and maintenance wear are optimum for passenger load and travel times.

This varies from PDL to PDL.

They could run a train at 420 or 480 km/h but it would have to be the last of the day, few stops and the wear would be unacceptable.

If you wish to travel faster than 480 km/h, perhaps one should fly? :lol:

Who knows what these PDL's will be rated at in the future. If they could upgrade D-lines from 120 to 200 km/h, then the 350/380 km/h lines can be uprated in the future also.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Are high speed trains really that fragile? I was surprised at how much inspection was needed after a couple runs. I'm no expert on trains so I'm not sure how much wear and tear a couple of high speed runs affect a train.


----------



## Momo1435

A train is only as strong as it weakest parts.

With the steel wheels on the steel track it creates huge forces that grow exponentially with increasing speeds onto those parts. Little hair-cracks can expand in no time resulting in the failure of key parts of a train, like a wheel crack that was the cause of the ICE crash in Germany. 

The problem with China was that the technology is there to go faster then before, going 350 km/h where most HSL network only had a operating speed of 300 ~ 330 km/h. But since the other network all started slower and progressively raised the speed in smaller steps they also have the knowledge on how a speed up of the trains would affect the operation costs and maintenance. China started with the maximum speed since it was possible, but soon after realized that it was a bit too much to handle straight out of the starting blocks without the years of experience that the other countries already have.


----------



## hmmwv

China Hand said:


> The Wuhan-Guangzhou line was slowed to 304 km/h but more recently is up to 317 km/h in places.


Interesting, because I know that Guangzhou Railway Corp's maintenance section is extremely strict on speed limits, as of a few months ago anyone driver who's IC card recorded a speed over 310km/h will get a fine. The maintenance on those trains are intense, even a little increase in operating speed will result in more frequent parts change or refurbishment.



Momo1435 said:


> The problem with China was that the technology is there to go faster then before, going 350 km/h where most HSL network only had a operating speed of 300 ~ 330 km/h. But since the other network all started slower and progressively raised the speed in smaller steps they also have the knowledge on how a speed up of the trains would affect the operation costs and maintenance. China started with the maximum speed since it was possible, but soon after realized that it was a bit too much to handle straight out of the starting blocks without the years of experience that the other countries already have.


Well it's not like China went to 350km/h from conventional railway overnight. China has invested in HSR technology since the early 1990s, and numerous designs were tested or put into limited operation for close to 10 years before the CRH system became operational. Even after that it took another two years for CRH to get to 350km/h from 250km/h. The line went straight to 350km/h because it's the first dedicated 350km/h rated new line built, other countries, such as France's Lyon-Marseilles section, are upgraded lines that's why it didn't go 320km/h from the get go. Also note Wuhan-Guangzhou was operated at 350km/h safely for two years before the speed reduction, which I believe is entirely due to political and economic reasons, not technical. The line was tested at close to 400km/h with the former minister of railway in the driver's cabin, they wouldn't do it if they don't have absolute confidence in the system.


----------



## Momo1435

China did not have the same level of experience of running commercial high speed trains as Japan, France & Germany. 2 years of CHR operation is not the same as running a high speed network on dedicated high speed lines since 1964 (Japan) or 1981 (TGV). 

The failure of the initial Chinese developments led to the buying spree of foreign technology, and that made it possible to have 350 km/h trains. But the experience in running a reliable network can't be bought from overseas. And I see that you can also blame the higher Chinese politicians who of course don't have any experience on running trains for wanting to have the best and the biggest in zero time. It's absolutely no surprise that all the speeds have been reduced to more reasonable levels. 

It's still rather amazing that they can keep up a 300 km/h network right now, I have to give the people working on the railways that. But they had to learn it the hard way by figuring out the reasons behind the initial poor service and the terrible accident last year. Hopefully they continue gaining that experience with safety and reliability as the #1 priorities.


----------



## China Hand

hmmwv said:


> Interesting, because I know that Guangzhou Railway Corp's maintenance section is extremely strict on speed limits, as of a few months ago anyone driver who's IC card recorded a speed over 310km/h will get a fine. The maintenance on those trains are intense, even a little increase in operating speed will result in more frequent parts change or refurbishment.


That was from a trip back in Feb.

The 304 km/hr trip was from December and I noticed the slower speed from the prior year when it was 347 to 352 km/h.


----------



## China Hand

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Are high speed trains really that fragile? I was surprised at how much inspection was needed after a couple runs. I'm no expert on trains so I'm not sure how much wear and tear a couple of high speed runs affect a train.


Drag increases as a square of the velocity, and the power/energy required increases as a CUBE of velocity.

So, yes. You increase the v and you wear things out faster and suck up more juice, especially as one gets closer to the design limits.


----------



## kw0943

Seems like everyone is talking about the rated 350 km/h trains. I was just saying that the rated 250 km/h trains were technology that can travel up to 250 km/h in other countries, and China has been running them smoothy for quite a while. Why did China decide to show these trains down?

P.S. I can fully understand why they slowed the 350 km/h trains down to 300 km/h but I think 320 km/h will be a more reasonable medium.


----------



## hmmwv

Momo1435 said:


> China did not have the same level of experience of running commercial high speed trains as Japan, France & Germany. 2 years of CHR operation is not the same as running a high speed network on dedicated high speed lines since 1964 (Japan) or 1981 (TGV).
> 
> The failure of the initial Chinese developments led to the buying spree of foreign technology, and that made it possible to have 350 km/h trains. But the experience in running a reliable network can't be bought from overseas. And I see that you can also blame the higher Chinese politicians who of course don't have any experience on running trains for wanting to have the best and the biggest in zero time. It's absolutely no surprise that all the speeds have been reduced to more reasonable levels.
> 
> It's still rather amazing that they can keep up a 300 km/h network right now, I have to give the people working on the railways that. But they had to learn it the hard way by figuring out the reasons behind the initial poor service and the terrible accident last year. Hopefully they continue gaining that experience with safety and reliability as the #1 priorities.


It's true that China is far behind the HSR pioneers such as Japan and France in terms of experience in operating HSR, however the technologies available for China today are the product of accumulation of the aforementioned experience. Just like China's space program, they don't have to reinvent the wheel if it's already been done by others, lessons have been learned, and improvements made. China did build the largest and most advanced HSR network in the world in the shortest amount of time, and are operating relatively smoothly for five years now, that feat itself is a testimony of CRH employees' competency. You are surprised that they are able to keep up 300km/h because most outsiders constantly underestimate the Chinese people, and in this case they clearly have learned very fast on how to run a vast HSR network. And just like you said, they are gaining experience every day, and the CRH network is getting safer and more reliable every passing day. It's sad that there was the July 2011 accident which claimed many lives, but note that accident has absolutely nothing to do with speed since it happened when the train is traveling at 99km/h. The speed reduction also has nothing to do with the accident because it was announced before 7.23, and like I've said it's a pure political and economical move.


----------



## hmmwv

kw0943 said:


> Seems like everyone is talking about the rated 350 km/h trains. I was just saying that the rated 250 km/h trains were technology that can travel up to 250 km/h in other countries, and China has been running them smoothy for quite a while. Why did China decide to show these trains down?


Product differentiation (from 300km/h G trains), reduced maintenance and electricity cost translate to reduced ticket prices to attract lower income passengers, it also allows those upgraded conventional lines to accommodate more freight traffic (higher revenue for the MOR).


----------



## kw0943

> Product differentiation (from 300km/h G trains), reduced maintenance and electricity cost translate to reduced ticket prices to attract lower income passengers, it also allows those upgraded conventional lines to accommodate more freight traffic (higher revenue for the MOR).
> __________________
> The building under construction next to Shanghai Tower is Oriental Financial Center. The "plot" next to Jinmao is reserved green belt and no skyscraper will be built there.


So you say that the currently 200 km/h trains will return to 250 km/h once the currently 300 km/h trains is raised to 350 km/h, which rumors say will happen

****frustrated with China for injuring such an impressive High speed rail network.


----------



## joseph1951

hmmwv said:


> Interesting, because I know that Guangzhou Railway Corp's maintenance section is extremely strict on speed limits, as of a few months ago anyone driver who's IC card recorded a speed over 310km/h will get a fine. The maintenance on those trains are intense, even a little increase in operating speed will result in more frequent parts change or refurbishment.
> 
> 
> Well it's not like China went to 350km/h from conventional railway overnight. China has invested in HSR technology since the early 1990s, and numerous designs were tested or put into limited operation for close to 10 years before the CRH system became operational. Even after that it took another two years for CRH to get to 350km/h from 250km/h. The line went straight to 350km/h because it's the first dedicated 350km/h rated new line built, other countries, such as *
> 
> 1-
> France's Lyon-Marseilles section, are upgraded lines that's why it didn't go 320km/h from the get go*. .


The Paris Lyon and the Lyon- Marseille sections were built as LGVs and were entirely new lines.


http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Sud-Est

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Méditerranée


----------



## China Hand

kw0943 said:


> So you say that the currently 200 km/h trains will return to 250 km/h once the currently 300 km/h trains is raised to 350 km/h, which rumors say will happen
> 
> ****frustrated with China for injuring such an impressive High speed rail network.


China is not 'injuring' their network.

The slowdown is in fact *saving the network from injury* as experience is gained in maintaining and running the network.

He is also NOT saying that 'the currently 200 km/h trains will return to 250 km/h once the currently 300 km/h trains is raised to 350 km/h'. He is saying that the difference in two speeds is to attract lower paying riders, and that lowering existing speeds is to attract more riders, also.


----------



## foxmulder

Speed of high speed trains is mostly depends on politics. There is a fierce competition in China between airline and rail lobbies. One part is developing ARJ-21, C919, building countless airports; other part is building this colossal high speed network. Some friction has to occur. 

Once the whole network is complete and some more experience gained, there will be the reversal of the speed decrease. That's what I think... I even think we will see more than 350km/h on longer routes. Also even with 300km/h, when you look at the average speed, the network is still the fastest.


----------



## ddes

Momo1435 said:


> China did not have the same level of experience of running commercial high speed trains as Japan, France & Germany. 2 years of CHR operation is not the same as running a high speed network on dedicated high speed lines since 1964 (Japan) or 1981 (TGV).


By the same token, I should be cautious when I ride on Spain's AVE, Korea's KTX and many others then because they don't have decades of experience.


----------



## ukiyo

> China did build the largest and most advanced HSR network in the world in the shortest amount of time, and are operating relatively smoothly for five years now, that feat itself is a testimony of CRH employees' competency.


Just curious what is your criteria for being the most advanced?


----------



## Silly_Walks

ddes said:


> By the same token, I should be cautious when I ride on Spain's AVE, Korea's KTX and many others then because they don't have decades of experience.


Why should you be cautious?


----------



## hmmwv

joseph1951 said:


> The Paris Lyon and the Lyon- Marseille sections were built as LGVs and were entirely new lines.
> 
> 
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Sud-Est
> 
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Méditerranée


Thank you, I stand corrected. 



ukiyo said:


> Just curious what is your criteria for being the most advanced?


Fastest designed speed, longest viaducts, built on the most difficult terrains, all new tracks, all new stations, three 380km/h rated trainsets, etc. I think it's the most advanced, but not the best, I think that title goes to JR.


----------



## ukiyo

hmmwv said:


> Fastest designed speed, longest viaducts, built on the most difficult terrains, all new tracks, all new stations, three 380km/h rated trainsets, etc. I think it's the most advanced, but not the best, I think that title goes to JR.


Interesting thanks for the clarification. Under that criteria it is definitely the most advanced. I am not familiar with the terrain (I have only used the Shanghai HSR) but China is a big country with many kinds of terrain. What kinds of examples of the difficult terrains? Why do you think JR is the best?


----------



## Momo1435

hmmwv said:


> It's true that China is far behind the HSR pioneers such as Japan and France in terms of experience in operating HSR, however the technologies available for China today are the product of accumulation of the aforementioned experience. Just like China's space program, they don't have to reinvent the wheel if it's already been done by others, lessons have been learned, and improvements made. China did build the largest and most advanced HSR network in the world in the shortest amount of time, and are operating relatively smoothly for five years now, that feat itself is a testimony of CRH employees' competency. You are surprised that they are able to keep up 300km/h because most outsiders constantly underestimate the Chinese people, and in this case they clearly have learned very fast on how to run a vast HSR network. And just like you said, they are gaining experience every day, and the CRH network is getting safer and more reliable every passing day. It's sad that there was the July 2011 accident which claimed many lives, but note that accident has absolutely nothing to do with speed since it happened when the train is traveling at 99km/h. The speed reduction also has nothing to do with the accident because it was announced before 7.23, and like I've said it's a pure political and economical move.


I know I know, China does nothing wrong and therefore you cannot criticize them. 

But let's be honest. Even though I'm Dutch I will be the 1st person to criticize the Dutch efforts on running a HSL. Basically my thoughts are that the only right decision was to be build a high speed line, all decisions afterwards where very poor and resulted in the complete failure that it is now. 

So when I see a country announce in the worldwide media that they are building the biggest network and have the fastest trains in the world, only to quietly reduce speeds to more normal levels after just a year I cannot do anything else then raise my eyebrows. I can only see over-ambition caused by inexperience as the main reason behind the slowdown. And I don't care if this happened in China, or Japan, Europe or America, that has nothing do with it. Saying that the outside world doesn't believe that China can't do anything right are just excuses to cover up the failures. So my statement that I'm actually surprised that they can keep up the 300 km/h might be a tip over the top. But not as over the top as the initial Chinese statements that they would simply run the fastest high speed trains in the world. 

And you can fool yourself looking back at the accident saying that it wasn't a high speed accident because the trains where just going 100 km/h... But it was a collision between 2 high speed trains on a new line. It's far more a situation of thank the gods it was just at 100 km/h. Of course the speed wasn't the cause of the accident, but that's not really the point. The system failure and human errors that caused this accident could also have resulted in an accident at really high speeds. It's basically the initial flaw of the Chinese efforts. Focusing mainly on speed and not as much at reliability and safety. 



ddes said:


> By the same token, I should be cautious when I ride on Spain's AVE, Korea's KTX and many others then because they don't have decades of experience.


Spain AVE started operation in 1992, and then without big announcements that it would be the fastest high speed service in the world. Later on the Madrid - Barcelona line that fully opened in 2008 was designed for 350 km/h, they also wanted to reach the 350 km/h in commercial service. But after the test runs they wisely decided that the max speed on the whole AVE network would only be 300 km/h, right now they have slowly increased it to 310 km/h on some parts of the line. 

Korea also started in 1992, and also with 300 km/h on lines designed for 350 km/h. Also didn't go from nothing to the fastest in the world. 

Inexperience is not something that makes a High Speed Network unsafe by default. It only becomes a big factor when the ambitions are too high for a nation that just starts a high speed network.


----------



## k.k.jetcar

Apparently KHI or perhaps JR East advised the Chinese railway authorities to start at a slower speed, and gradually increase speeds as experience was gained, and after overcoming any of the inevitable glitches that arise on a new system. But it seems such advice was ignored by bureaucrats and politicos more interested in making a name for themselves and generating headlines "Fastest X in the world" and the like. Hubris trumped prudence.


----------



## Norge78

*TGV Technology is better than japanese one*

@Momo1435

FUKUSHIMA "chernobyl" disaster, shame of the century, was a just a big example of japanese transparency and safety experience, we all know it.

We all Europeans should learn from japan, even if i wonder how many people will die in future in the world thanks to the japanese lies.

Thx


----------



## foxmulder

Momo1435 said:


> I know I know, China does nothing wrong and therefore you cannot criticize them.
> 
> But let's be honest. Even though I'm Dutch I will be the 1st person to criticize the Dutch efforts on running a HSL. Basically my thoughts are that the only right decision was to be build a high speed line, all decisions afterwards where very poor and resulted in the complete failure that it is now.
> 
> So when I see a country announce in the worldwide media that they are building the biggest network and have the fastest trains in the world, only to quietly reduce speeds to more normal levels after just a year I cannot do anything else then raise my eyebrows. I can only see over-ambition caused by inexperience as the main reason behind the slowdown. And I don't care if this happened in China, or Japan, Europe or America, that has nothing do with it. Saying that the outside world doesn't believe that China can't do anything right are just excuses to cover up the failures. So my statement that I'm actually surprised that they can keep up the 300 km/h might be a tip over the top. But not as over the top as the initial Chinese statements that they would simply run the fastest high speed trains in the world.
> 
> And you can fool yourself looking back at the accident saying that it wasn't a high speed accident because the trains where just going 100 km/h... But it was a collision between 2 high speed trains on a new line. It's far more a situation of thank the gods it was just at 100 km/h. Of course the speed wasn't the cause of the accident, but that's not really the point. The system failure and human errors that caused this accident could also have resulted in an accident at really high speeds. It's basically the initial flaw of the Chinese efforts. Focusing mainly on speed and not as much at reliability and safety.
> 
> 
> Spain AVE started operation in 1992, and then without big announcements that it would be the fastest high speed service in the world. Later on the Madrid - Barcelona line that fully opened in 2008 was designed for 350 km/h, they also wanted to reach the 350 km/h in commercial service. But after the test runs they wisely decided that the max speed on the whole AVE network would only be 300 km/h, right now they have slowly increased it to 310 km/h on some parts of the line.
> 
> Korea also started in 1992, and also with 300 km/h on lines designed for 350 km/h. Also didn't go from nothing to the fastest in the world.
> 
> Inexperience is not something that makes a High Speed Network unsafe by default. It only becomes a big factor when the ambitions are too high for a nation that just starts a high speed network.



Constructive criticism is the best thing. It is a very fair point to say "start at 300km/h and then increase the speed". 

I have couple points to make though. It was not a new line, accident happened on an upgraded line with "older" generation trains. So it was not really about 350km/h speed limit. 

Spanish and Korean networks are not as advanced as Chinese rail network because of two fundamental differences: 

1) Ballastless trucks and 
2) 7000m turn radius.

One cannot overlook these extremely crucial differences.


----------



## sekelsenmat

Momo1435 said:


> Basically my thoughts are that the only right decision was to be build a high speed line, all decisions afterwards where very poor and resulted in the complete failure that it is now.


From what I read in this forum the ridership of HSR is like 5 times of what the older conventional rail was in the same lines. That alone is already proof of success. The best way to measure the success of an infra-structure project is to see how many people use it, and a 5x increase in passengers is something huge.


----------



## FM 2258

What percentage are they finished with the entire high speed rail network plan? Looking at videos there are so many high speed rail bridges under construction. It looks like a spaghetti bowl of rail lines.


----------



## Sopomon

foxmulder said:


> Spanish and Korean networks are not as advanced as Chinese rail network because of two fundamental differences:
> 
> 1) Ballastless trucks and
> 2) 7000m turn radius.
> 
> One cannot overlook these extremely crucial differences.


In terms of safety, neither of these make much difference, and here's why:

1. Ballastless track is only safer by virtue of it not moving around as much and the removal of possibly dangerous ballast. HOWEVER, when maintained properly, tracks with ballast are just as safe as ballastless tracks. It all depends on the rate of use and the maintenance schedule. And again, even with HSR, ballasted track is safe with maintenance, I don't believe the engineers would have looked over such a massive problem as flying ballast if it actualy had a chance of occurring.

2. The turn raduis has nothing do do with safety or advancement. It simply allows the trains to run faster, but at the price of the line being more expensive as it can't avoid obstacles as easily, and thus more tunelling and bridging must be performed.

So, truly, I don't think these differences are crucial at all.


----------



## foxmulder

Sopomon said:


> In terms of safety, neither of these make much difference, and here's why:
> 
> 1. Ballastless track is only safer by virtue of it not moving around as much and the removal of possibly dangerous ballast. HOWEVER, when maintained properly, tracks with ballast are just as safe as ballastless tracks. It all depends on the rate of use and the maintenance schedule. And again, even with HSR, ballasted track is safe with maintenance, I don't believe the engineers would have looked over such a massive problem as flying ballast if it actualy had a chance of occurring.
> 
> 2. The turn raduis has nothing do do with safety or advancement. It simply allows the trains to run faster, but at the price of the line being more expensive as it can't avoid obstacles as easily, and thus more tunelling and bridging must be performed.
> 
> So, truly, I don't think these differences are crucial at all.


Well, I don't want to enter an argument but have to say that you are absolutely wrong. If you want to go *faster* than the current "conventional" high speed rail in a *safe manner* you have to have these.


----------



## Silly_Walks

foxmulder said:


> I have couple points to make though. It was not a new line, accident happened on an upgraded line with "older" generation trains. So it was not really about 350km/h speed limit.


That's not really a good point, since the conditions the accident happened under are the same on "new" lines and "newest" generation trains.

It's just luck it didn't happen on a 350 km/h line.


----------



## hmmwv

Momo1435 said:


> I know I know, China does nothing wrong and therefore you cannot criticize them.
> 
> But let's be honest. Even though I'm Dutch I will be the 1st person to criticize the Dutch efforts on running a HSL. Basically my thoughts are that the only right decision was to be build a high speed line, all decisions afterwards where very poor and resulted in the complete failure that it is now.
> 
> So when I see a country announce in the worldwide media that they are building the biggest network and have the fastest trains in the world, only to quietly reduce speeds to more normal levels after just a year I cannot do anything else then raise my eyebrows. I can only see over-ambition caused by inexperience as the main reason behind the slowdown. And I don't care if this happened in China, or Japan, Europe or America, that has nothing do with it. Saying that the outside world doesn't believe that China can't do anything right are just excuses to cover up the failures. So my statement that I'm actually surprised that they can keep up the 300 km/h might be a tip over the top. But not as over the top as the initial Chinese statements that they would simply run the fastest high speed trains in the world.
> 
> And you can fool yourself looking back at the accident saying that it wasn't a high speed accident because the trains where just going 100 km/h... But it was a collision between 2 high speed trains on a new line. It's far more a situation of thank the gods it was just at 100 km/h. Of course the speed wasn't the cause of the accident, but that's not really the point. The system failure and human errors that caused this accident could also have resulted in an accident at really high speeds. It's basically the initial flaw of the Chinese efforts. Focusing mainly on speed and not as much at reliability and safety.


Of course you can criticize Chinese HSR, that's why we are having this discussion, but that doesn't mean they are informed nor do I agree with you. China announced the 350-380km/h speed and then reduced it because the minister of railway was replaced, and then MOR's political infighting resulted in the speed reduction, not because of technical reasons. Many 350km/h lines have been operated safely, such as Wuhan-Guangzhou, Beijing-Tianjin, Shanghai-Nanjing, etc. You kept on ignoring these important facts and continuing to push the opinion that this is a cover up to their "failure" is board line arrogant, just shows you know very little about China. Also since we are discussing 350km/h here, bring the 7.23 accident is pointless because speed is not a cause, it did not occur during high speed travel, and it occurred on a standard 250km/h line.


----------



## hmmwv

ukiyo said:


> Interesting thanks for the clarification. Under that criteria it is definitely the most advanced. I am not familiar with the terrain (I have only used the Shanghai HSR) but China is a big country with many kinds of terrain. What kinds of examples of the difficult terrains? Why do you think JR is the best?


Lines such as Baoji-Lanzhou passes through numerous mountain ranges, rivers, and valleys, on this 400km line bridge, viaducts, and tunnels account for over 92% of the entire track length. I think JR is the best because its operational efficiency, perfect safety record, and the general ride experience (station/train cleanness, passenger friendly infrastructure).



k.k.jetcar said:


> Apparently KHI or perhaps JR East advised the Chinese railway authorities to start at a slower speed, and gradually increase speeds as experience was gained, and after overcoming any of the inevitable glitches that arise on a new system. But it seems such advice was ignored by bureaucrats and politicos more interested in making a name for themselves and generating headlines "Fastest X in the world" and the like. Hubris trumped prudence.


MOR was being prudent when they announced the CRH380 will run on the 380km/h Beijing-Shanghai line, it was originally planned to be CRH400 and operate at 400km/h on that particular line. :bash: Crazy, yeah, I know. 



foxmulder said:


> I have couple points to make though. It was not a new line, accident happened on an upgraded line with "older" generation trains. So it was not really about 350km/h speed limit.


Just one correction, the Ningbo-Wenzhou line is a new built line, just not a passenger dedicated line, but mixed conventional/HSR line. The trains are old ones though.



sekelsenmat said:


> From what I read in this forum the ridership of HSR is like 5 times of what the older conventional rail was in the same lines. That alone is already proof of success. The best way to measure the success of an infra-structure project is to see how many people use it, and a 5x increase in passengers is something huge.


You guys talking about the Dutch HSR, right?


----------



## foxmulder

Silly_Walks said:


> That's not really a good point, since the conditions the accident happened under are the same on "new" lines and "newest" generation trains.
> 
> It's just luck it didn't happen on a 350 km/h line.


What conditions are you referring? Railroads (signaling, built quality etc.) and the trains on 250km/h lines are different than those ones on 350km/h lines. 

Also, that wasn't the only point I made.  



hmmwv said:


> Just one correction, the Ningbo-Wenzhou line is a new built line, just not a passenger dedicated line, but mixed conventional/HSR line. The trains are old ones though.


Noted.


----------



## everywhere

*52.6 mln ride Beijing-Shanghai high-speed trains*
(Shanghai Daily/Xinhua, June 30)




> BEIJING, June 30 (Xinhua) -- Some 52.6 million passengers have travelled on the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway since it opened to the public a year ago, latest data showed Saturday.
> 
> More than 56,000 trains traversed the railway in the first year of its operation, Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway Company said.
> 
> After three years of construction, the 1,318-km railway linking Beijing and Shanghai went into operation in June last year.
> 
> Trains were initially allowed to travel at a maximum speed of 350 km per hour, which was later adjusted to 300 km per hour to allegedly reduce operation costs.
> 
> Built with an investment of 217.6 billion yuan (34.5 billion U.S. dollars), the railway has shortened travel time between the two cities to about five hours.


http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/article_xinhua.asp?id=80217


----------



## Silly_Walks

foxmulder said:


> What conditions are you referring? Railroads (signaling, built quality etc.) and the trains on 250km/h lines are different than those ones on 350km/h lines.
> 
> Also, that wasn't the only point I made.


Well, first of all, I was quoting you exactly:

"I have couple points to make though. It was not a new line, accident happened on an upgraded line with "older" generation trains. So it was not really about 350km/h speed limit."

So after saying you have a couple of points to make, you say the accident happened on an upgraded line with "older" generation trains, as if that would make any difference. However, the conditions under which the accident happened are the same on 350 km/h tracks, except perhaps the physical signalling in stead of "virtual" signalling. Had circumstances been exactly the same, but the track would have been 350 km/h track, and the trains were the newer trains, the accident still would have happened, because it was caused by lack of fail safes.

The track of the Wenzhou train collision was newly built, elevated track, just as much of the 350 km/h track is. It has only been operational since 2009.
The CRH1 and CRH2 trains have only been in operation since 2007, still rather new (ICE 3's have been in service since 2000 already).
But even newer 350 km/h trains can still have signal problems causing one train to run into another train, if systems are not fail safe as was the case at the Wenzhou accident. 

So I would say, if this accident happened at 100 km/h on a 250 km/h track, that should be considered an extremely costly blessing in disguise, because it taught an important lesson before it happened on a 350 km/h track at speed.


----------



## Silly_Walks

everywhere said:


> *52.6 mln ride Beijing-Shanghai high-speed trains*
> (Shanghai Daily/Xinhua, June 30)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/article_xinhua.asp?id=80217


An average of 939 people per train? That's awesome, and it sounds like a lot... what was the average capacity per train?
Is that just people running the entire length, or are Nanjing-Shanghai, etc., passengers also counted?


----------



## George08

*Xiamen - Longyan High speed rail open*

The long-awaited Longyan-Xiamen Railway starts operation today, 1 day ahead of schedule, reports Xiamen Economic Daily. 

The line has a total length of 171 kilometres with 6 stops: Xiamen Railway Station/ Xiamen North Station, Jiaomei Station, Zhangzhou Station, Nanjing Station, Longshanzhen Station and Longyan Station. 

Tickets for Longyan-Xiamen bullet trains can be purchased or booked online via www.12306.cn (Chinese version only) as well as at ticket booths in Xiamen Railway Station. 

According to the Nanchang Railways Bureau, there are two kinds of seat for the bullet trains; first-class and second-class. The prices vary as follows: 
- Xiamen (Xiamen Railway Station)-Longyan: RMB60 for first-class seat and RMB49 for second-class seat 
- Xiamen Bei (Xiamen North Station)-Longyan: RMB55 for first-class seat and RMB46 for second-class seat 

The opening of the Longyan-Xiamen Railway may cause the highway bus industry to cut their ticket prices to compete. 

According to the current timetable, the first bullet train heading for Longyan will depart from Xiamen Railway Station at 7:10 and arrive in Longyan Station at 8:39. The travel time from Xiamen to Longyan by train will be shortened to 90 minutes from the previous 4 hours. 

However because of Chinas brand-new train timetable that will be implemented from 1st July, the schedule is liable to change. Please check for the latest schedule at the railway station. 

Apart from train tickets, please note Chinese residents (including those from Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan) are required to present their ID cards and expats are required to present passports when boarding the train.



http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/travel-msg-1929.html


----------



## Restless

Silly_Walks said:


> An average of 939 people per train? That's awesome, and it sounds like a lot... what was the average capacity per train?
> Is that just people running the entire length, or are Nanjing-Shanghai, etc., passengers also counted?


It looks like there are 4 different types of trains running.

Some are 8 cars long (about 500-600pax) and others are 16cars (1000-1200pax)


----------



## Silly_Walks

everywhere said:


> *China exports electric bullet train to Georgia*
> (China Daily, July 18)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> more: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2012-07/18/content_15594129.htm


Not HSR, so please don't cross post it here.


----------



## Woonsocket54

Silly_Walks said:


> Not HSR, so please don't cross post it here.


This post begs the question - is it worse to:

(a) post something that doesn't belong?
(b) post the same exact post as the one above it?


----------



## makita09

The answer is a).


----------



## legolego

(b)


----------



## big-dog

Pictures taken by me early this month at Hongqiao Railway Station/Airport


----------



## HunanChina

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDI5NjMzMjEy.html


----------



## bearb

Shenzhen North Station


----------



## Unterm_Schwanz

^^ Cool! Do you have any inferior pics?


----------



## foxmulder

Thanks for sharing the nice pictures bearb :cheers:


----------



## bearb

Unterm_Schwanz said:


> ^^ Cool! Do you have any inferior pics?


here they are
by 深南向上
http://www.gaoloumi.com/viewthread.php?tid=471956&extra=&page=1


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Shenzhen North is a great looking station. Does this station only serve the Guangshen'gang XLR? In other words, do the tracks lead to other places other than Guangzhou and Shenzhen Futian(later Hong Kong Kowloon)?


----------



## gramercy

i think it also serves the Xiamen-Fuzhou direction


----------



## chornedsnorkack

gramercy said:


> i think it also serves the Xiamen-Fuzhou direction


Yes - when completed.

Since March 2012, trains on Shenzhen-Guangzhou already travel beyond Guangzhou as far as Wuhan.


----------



## big-dog

nice station. anybody know what the space in front of the station used for?



bearb said:


> Shenzhen North Station


----------



## bearb

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Shenzhen North is a great looking station. Does this station only serve the Guangshen'gang XLR? In other words, do the tracks lead to other places other than Guangzhou and Shenzhen Futian(later Hong Kong Kowloon)?


And now trains from Shenzhen North also travel to Changsha and Wuhan via Guangzhou South through Wuhan-Guangzhou Highspeed Rail..

in the future: Xiamen-Shenzhen Railway (under construction) which is a part of the Southeastern Coastal Railway... and Guangdong West Coastal Railway (planned) to Maoming.

possibly all the way heading north to Beijing through Beijing-Shijiazhuang HSR, Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou HSR, Zhengzhou-Wuhan HSR, Wuhan-Guangzhou HSR and Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong HSR .


----------



## Unterm_Schwanz

Thanks, bearb! Very nice interior, but a bit less spectacular than Wuhan or Beijing Nan.


----------



## gramercy

bearb said:


> and Guangdong West Coastal Railway (planned) to Maoming.


anything more about this?


----------



## bearb

gramercy said:


> anything more about this?


by cjian0732

i have highlighted it in orange


----------



## gramercy

thx


----------



## Silly_Walks

bearb said:


> by cjian0732
> 
> i have highlighted it in orange


Will it be HSR, and if so, what speed?

It seems to bypass Guangzhou: will Guangzhou have it's own HSR connection towards Maoming?


----------



## yaohua2000

FM 2258 said:


> Is the Shijiazhuang an existing station that was upgraded to support CRH trains?


Shijiazhuang is a new station. The old one will become a railway museum.


----------



## yaohua2000

*Beijing to Shanghai at Speed of Sound (4x bullet train speed)*


----------



## chornedsnorkack

yaohua2000 said:


> Shijiazhuang is a new station. The old one will become a railway museum.


Where shall existing low speed railway trains stop?


----------



## FM 2258

yaohua2000 said:


> Shijiazhuang is a new station. The old one will become a railway museum.







chornedsnorkack said:


> Where shall existing low speed railway trains stop?


In the picture hmmwv posted I see a low speed train in the picture. I have the same question.


----------



## yaohua2000

chornedsnorkack said:


> Where shall existing low speed railway trains stop?


All trains will stop at the new Shijiazhuang station.


----------



## Pansori

Someone mentioned a speed increase to 320km/h a while ago. When is that taking place? Or did I miss something?


----------



## kw0943

I know a lot about HSR speed, so I think I could answer the question.
In the Shijiazhuang train video, the speed goes up to about 310 km/h from 304 km/h. Becuase this is probably an unofficial, and gradual change 320kmh will probably happen later.

Also, the second speeddown campaign is not exactly official. Wikipeidia, as many as Chinese sources only publish the "design speed".

I expect the Chinese government to increase the speed slowly until they get to the 380 km/h maximum designed speed. Slower trains will to the same thing. I expect that will happen in about a 2 year process. The trains will reach 320 km/h very soon.


----------



## big-dog

*Beijing-Shijiazhuang HSR (U/C)*

Length: 281km
Design speed: 350km/h
Opening: Dec 2012

Thanks renchengyuan from ditiezu for the pictures. The construction is almost completed, trial testing will start this month.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*High speed railways that open in December 2012*

I see that the following high speed railways have been mentioned:

Zhengzhou-Shijiazhuang
Shijiazhuang-Beijing
Bengbu-Hefei
Nanjing-Hangzhou
Hangzhou-Ningbo
Dalian-Shenyang-Harbin

Is this list correct?


----------



## hmmwv

^^ The only uncertainty is Nanjing-Hangzhou and Hangzhou-Ningbo, infrastructure construction of Nanjing-Hangzhou hasn't completed and joint calibration and testing won't start until October at the earliest, which will last 144 days according to a Shanghai RB document. Same with Hangzhou-Ningbo, there is no date yet for the start of testings.


----------



## foxmulder

big-dog said:


>


:drool:

so good


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> ^^ The only uncertainty is Nanjing-Hangzhou and Hangzhou-Ningbo, infrastructure construction of Nanjing-Hangzhou hasn't completed and joint calibration and testing won't start until October at the earliest, which will last 144 days according to a Shanghai RB document. Same with Hangzhou-Ningbo, there is no date yet for the start of testings.


Is it then confirmed that the railways:
Zhengzhou-Shijiazhuang
Shijiazhuang-Beijing
Bengbu-Hefei
Dalian-Shenyang-Harbin
are all:
completed
undergoing testing
on schedule to open scheduled service within 2012?


----------



## hmmwv

^^ Yes construction on those lines are already completed and are in various stages of testing.


----------



## FM 2258

Pictures are so beautiful *big-dog*.

I wish there was a map showing all individual lines including branch lines. I see pictures and videos and when the train gets close to the city there are all these lines crisscrossing, flying over, veering off....I wonder exactly where they all go. A spaghetti bowl of high speed lines when the train gets close to the city. Google maps shows nothing.


----------



## shree711

Why is there some bloke on the track?


----------



## big-dog

^^ He is one of the railway fans who sneaked in and took all these pictures.


----------



## ShaXbee

shree711 said:


> Why is there some bloke on the track?


Judging from the 'rust' on rails trains are not running on those tracks yet.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

foxmulder said:


> :drool:
> 
> so good


Ditto bro. 

The amount of tracks in that picture is SOOO damn high!


----------



## FM 2258

Question, does the Beijing-Tianjin Intercity railway share the same tracks as the Beijing-Shanghai High Speed Railway? Looking at videos and reading Wikipedia articles it seems like a different set of tracks are used. 

For some reason I thought going from Beijing to Shanghai completely bypassed Tianjin but it looks like it goes through the stations in Tianjin.


----------



## Silly_Walks

FM 2258 said:


> Question, does the Beijing-Tianjin Intercity railway share the same tracks as the Beijing-Shanghai High Speed Railway? Looking at videos and reading Wikipedia articles it seems like a different set of tracks are used.
> 
> For some reason I thought going from Beijing to Shanghai completely bypassed Tianjin but it looks like it goes through the stations in Tianjin.


They are separate lines, largely parallel.


----------



## gdolniak

China Hand said:


> Nice video of the trip.
> 
> If you do not travel nor live in China, these times do not mean much.
> 
> The CRH is top tier, world class or just below it. Average speed is 250 to 325 kph for a 300 to 380 kph rated line. Thus the trip from Guangzhou to Shenzhen is 28 minutes by CRH but 3 or 4 hours in massive traffic by bus.
> 
> [...]


This is a train between Shenzhen North Station and Guangzhou South Station. From Shenzhen North Station is about 20-30 minute subway ride to Futian Business District. Similarly, from Guangzhou South Station is 45 minute subway ride to the CBD in Tianhe. Both of the stations are on the literal outskirts of the town.

There is an "old" CRH-1 line from Tianhe (Guangzhou East Station) to Luohu (Shenzhen Station) and now it takes about 1:20 to complete the course. It is much slower than before, 1:05 minutes, a couple of years ago. If you are going from CBD Tianhe in Guangzhou to Shenzhen North Station, it is still faster to take the "old" CRH-1 train.

I haven't seen it on this forum yet, but there is a new CRH-1 station being build at Dongguan Shilong (石龙) as well as in Shenzhen Buji (布吉). The Shilong station will be also served by the new Dongguan metro. For Buji, I'm not sure if the CRH-1 trains will stop there (they do not now). Does anyone have any information about it?


----------



## Silver Swordsman

China Hand said:


> Nice video of the trip.
> 
> If you do not travel nor live in China, these times do not mean much.
> 
> The CRH is top tier, world class or just below it. Average speed is 250 to 325 kph for a 300 to 380 kph rated line. Thus the trip from Guangzhou to Shenzhen is 28 minutes by CRH but 3 or 4 hours in massive traffic by bus.
> 
> The bottom rung consists of all the local buses that run between all Chinese towns, villages and cities that average 40 to 45 kph.
> 
> This was the fastest way to travel in China until 2005 or so and it's what happens once you take a CRH to a mid point station, alight and then travel locally. It is thus entirely possible that the last leg of your journey by bus will take longer than the CRH trip from 500 or 1000 km away and you will take a beng beng truck from the CRH station.
> 
> The CRH, for those who can afford it, will save people DAYS, literally DAYS, of travel time in country. Trips that were 18 hours to 72 hours, will become 6 hours.
> 
> The ability to get on at Wuhan and be in Hong Kong in 5 hours, when the trip took 18 to 36 hours just a few years ago, cannot be lauded enough.
> 
> China is a nation where CRH makes the most sense with the most benefits.


Would you kindly point out, with this statement in mind, how high speed rail in the US wouldn't make sense?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> The CRH is top tier, world class or just below it. Average speed is 250 to 325 kph for a 300 to 380 kph rated line. Thus the trip from Guangzhou to Shenzhen is 28 minutes by CRH but 3 or 4 hours in massive traffic by bus.
> 
> The bottom rung consists of all the local buses that run between all Chinese towns, villages and cities that average 40 to 45 kph.
> 
> This was the fastest way to travel in China until 2005 or so and it's what happens once you take a CRH to a mid point station, alight and then travel locally. It is thus entirely possible that the last leg of your journey by bus will take longer than the CRH trip from 500 or 1000 km away and you will take a beng beng truck from the CRH station.


Would you prefer to travel on high-speed rail average speed 250 to 325 km/h to a big city and then spend hours on a local bus at 40...45 km/h - or could it be better to travel on a medium speed train (average speed 100...150 kph, top speed 160...250 kph) to a town near your destination and then take the 40...45 kph local bus to your destination?

Also, trams and buses commonly travel 15...20 kph average.


----------



## hkskyline

gdolniak said:


> T
> I haven't seen it on this forum yet, but there is a new CRH-1 station being build at Dongguan Shilong (石龙) as well as in Shenzhen Buji (布吉). The Shilong station will be also served by the new Dongguan metro. For Buji, I'm not sure if the CRH-1 trains will stop there (they do not now). Does anyone have any information about it?


I thought there is already a Shilong station along the Guangzhou East - Shenzhen (Luohu) CRH line? Are you talking about a new station with the same name?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Guangzhou stations*

Does Guangzhou need a new, better connected high speed railway station?

Guangzhou now has 2 - South and North.

Guangzhou South is in a remote Shibi subdistrict in Panyu district. It is connected to Guangzhou Metro line 2, but not to any low speed railways.

Guangzhou North is in remote Huadu district. It is connected to Beijing-Guangzhou low speed railway, but not to any metro line.

The distance between Guangzhou North and Guangzhou South is 46 km.

For comparison, the 102 km high speed railway Guangzhou South-Shenzhen North has 3 intermediate stations: Dongchong, Humen and Guangming.
So 4 stretches, 25,5 km average. 

Therefore, it would not be excessive to build an additional station on Guangzhou-Wuhan high speed railway somewhere between Guangzhou South and Guangzhou North.

Could someone show a map of western Guangzhou, depicting Guangzhou North and Guangzhou South stations, the high speed railway between them, and other low speed railways intersecting the high speed railway between these points?


----------



## gdolniak

hkskyline said:


> I thought there is already a Shilong station along the Guangzhou East - Shenzhen (Luohu) CRH line? Are you talking about a new station with the same name?


Seems that the existing Shilong station (conventional train and CRH) will be moved towards Dongguan. You can already view the construction site on Google Maps (satellite view). The conventional station was already rebuild a couple of years ago during the construction of the fourth track on the Guangshen line.


----------



## gdolniak

chornedsnorkack said:


> Does Guangzhou need a new, better connected high speed railway station?
> 
> Guangzhou now has 2 - South and North.
> 
> Guangzhou South is in a remote Shibi subdistrict in Panyu district. It is connected to Guangzhou Metro line 2, but not to any low speed railways.
> 
> Guangzhou North is in remote Huadu district. It is connected to Beijing-Guangzhou low speed railway, but not to any metro line.
> 
> The distance between Guangzhou North and Guangzhou South is 46 km.
> 
> For comparison, the 102 km high speed railway Guangzhou South-Shenzhen North has 3 intermediate stations: Dongchong, Humen and Guangming.
> So 4 stretches, 25,5 km average.
> 
> Therefore, it would not be excessive to build an additional station on Guangzhou-Wuhan high speed railway somewhere between Guangzhou South and Guangzhou North.
> 
> Could someone show a map of western Guangzhou, depicting Guangzhou North and Guangzhou South stations, the high speed railway between them, and other low speed railways intersecting the high speed railway between these points?


Another question would be: with such massive financial investment such as building the Beijing - Guangzhou High Speed Rwy and the whole brand new infrastructure, for whos convenience it was decided to place the Guangzhou North Rwy Station in Huadu, instead of moving it 10km east at the Baiyun International Airport? See Google Maps for that.


----------



## China Hand

Silver Swordsman said:


> Would you kindly point out, with this statement in mind, how high speed rail in the US wouldn't make sense?


Clearly you will not re-read my posts and are attempting to goad.

In short:

China
-2nd most concentrated population density on earth
-Trillions in savings
-Concentration of hundreds of large cities in the eastern third of the nation
-No old infrastructure sunk cost
-Few autos, no auto culture

North America I would rather drive, China I would rather take the train.

I have already described over many posts in great detail the time and costs involved and how each mode is better for the respective location.

They are two different places with two different, separate and distinct transportation needs.


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> Would you prefer to travel on high-speed rail average speed 250 to 325 km/h to a big city and then spend hours on a local bus at 40...45 km/h - or could it be better to travel on a medium speed train (average speed 100...150 kph, top speed 160...250 kph) to a town near your destination and then take the 40...45 kph local bus to your destination?
> 
> Also, trams and buses commonly travel 15...20 kph average.


Local buses where I live travel at 40 to 45 kph on average. I have measured and timed them, did one yesterday, an in-county trip of 57km, about 1h25m [40kph], that was a faster trip. Same trip has taken as long as 1h55m [30kph] on a crowded Saturday afternoon.

Medium trip buses are 92kph, sleeper buses are the same speed as NNNN and KNNN trains at about 75kph.



chornedsnorkack said:


> Would you prefer to travel on high-speed rail average speed 250 to 325 km/h to a big city and then spend hours on a local bus at 40...45 km/h - or could it be better to travel on a medium speed train (average speed 100...150 kph, top speed 160...250 kph) to a town near your destination and then take the 40...45 kph local bus to your destination?


This is a simple algebraic word problem that I am sure you can solve yourself.

My concerns are time and comfort. If I must be going long distances, then the leg room in a train is much preferred to being stuffed into an airplane.

The cost of laying so much rail in North America would be astronomical to get a medium speed train close to where everyone wishes to go, and merely 'costly' for China to do the same.

With the currently envisioned CRH network, assuming it is all built out to ~ca2016 as planned to that date and excluding longer time framed lines and future expansion, China's CRH will be adequate to get one about the nation with efficiency.

It may take up to 2 or 3 hours to reach said station using the 40kph local buses, but once in the system one can move about rapidly. As I read the CRH map, most of Eastern China will be within 3 hours of a CRH station within a few years.

If in a hurry one can always take a taxi, hire a private auto, or jitney with a friend.

...and the time to/from airports is comparable...


----------



## Silly_Walks

China Hand said:


> Clearly you will not re-read my posts and are attempting to goad.
> 
> In short:
> 
> China
> -2nd most concentrated population density on earth
> -


Not even close:

Ten most densely populated countries

With population above 1 million
Rank	Country/Region	Population	Area (km2)	Density
(Pop. per km2)
1 Singapore	5,183,700	710	7301
2 Bahrain	1,234,596	750	1646
3 Bangladesh	152,518,015	147,570	1034
4 Taiwan (R.O.C)	22,955,395	36,190	634
5 Mauritius	1,288,000	2,040	631
6 South Korea	48,456,369	99,538	487
7 Rwanda	10,718,379	26,338	407
8 England	53,013,000	130,440	406
9 Netherlands	16,760,000	41,526	404
10 Lebanon	4,224,000	10,452	404



China has lots of inhabitants, but it is also immense geographically.


There are big areas with a very high population density, but the same goes for the US.


----------



## foxmulder

I even don't get what you guys are trying to discuss, please solve your problem in pms


----------



## Silver Swordsman

China Hand said:


> Clearly you will not re-read my posts and are attempting to goad.


Actually, I read over your posts in great detail in the US HSR thread and spent hours refuting your claims; you've never bothered to answer. I was wondering why you were against rail in the US while for it in China when both countries had similar population densities. 

Why don't we engage in a hearty discussion there?



Linky:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=94755574&postcount=3351


----------



## FM 2258

BarbaricManchurian said:


> The main BJ-SH line contains Tianjin South station and there is also a branch line that goes to Tianjin West station. The BJ-TJ intercity HSR is a separate line that goes to Tianjin station.


In the video posted recently from Beijing South to Shanghai Hongqiao I cannot see where the Beijing-Tianjin Intercity line branches off from the long distance line. Do they leave Beijing in the same direction? 

Beijing Shanghai:




Beijing-Tianjin:











Silly_Walks said:


> They are separate lines, largely parallel.


I noticed the same thing with the Shanghai-Nanjing Intercity Rail. The planners really thought of everything. I thought they were just calling a short section of long distance lines "Intercity Rail" when in fact there is a dedicated line for intercity rail.

Anyway. I love this video below along the Shanghai-Nanjing High Speed line. You can see the old railway next to it. I find it interesting and nice that the slower rail line is also in use for passenger rail.


----------



## yaohua2000

FM 2258 said:


> In the video posted recently from Beijing South to Shanghai Hongqiao I cannot see where the Beijing-Tianjin Intercity line branches off from the long distance line. Do they leave Beijing in the same direction?


Beijing-Tianjin leaving Beijing South and heading to the east.

Beijing-Shanghai train leaving Beijing South and heading to the west.

They "branch off" from Beijing South Station.


----------



## FM 2258

yaohua2000 said:


> Beijing-Tianjin leaving Beijing South and heading to the east.
> 
> Beijing-Shanghai train leaving Beijing South and heading to the west.
> 
> They "branch off" from Beijing South Station.


That's funny, I wonder why the Beijing-Shanghai would head west starting out. It must loop back somehow to head south-east. Maybe that's why the train goes so slow for the first few minutes before it speeds up in the video. Still kinda confused but I'm trying to map it in my head. Too bad we don't have a map showing the individual high speed rail lines. If Google maps were updated for the CRH lines that would be perfect. :cheers:


----------



## China Hand

Silver Swordsman said:


> Actually, I read over your posts in great detail in the US HSR thread and spent hours refuting your claims; you've never bothered to answer. I was wondering why you were against rail in the US while for it in China when both countries had similar population densities.http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=94755574&postcount=3351


They don't have similar population densities and I am tired of your obfuscation, manipulation and misrepresentation of facts, dissemblement and other misleading techniques. Where the Chinese live, the eastern third of the country with 1,000bn, is far far more densely populated than the USA and to claim otherwise borders on intellectual dishonesty.

This is going to PM.


----------



## China Hand

I Wrote said:


> -2nd most concentrated population density on earth





Silly_Walks Wrote said:


> Not even close:
> 
> Ten most densely populated countries


If I had meant to write 'most densely populated country' I would have. I did not. You interpreted what I wrote incorrectly and to your benefit.

If you cannot comprehend that this string of words:
"most concentrated population density"

differs from this one in meaning:
"most densely populated country"

then discussing this with you is pointless.

Off to PM this goes.


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> That's funny, I wonder why the Beijing-Shanghai would head west starting out. It must loop back somehow to head south-east. Maybe that's why the train goes so slow for the first few minutes before it speeds up in the video. Still kinda confused but I'm trying to map it in my head. Too bad we don't have a map showing the individual high speed rail lines. If Google maps were updated for the CRH lines that would be perfect. :cheers:


It only heads west for a couple of miles before turning southbound, then it turns to southeast in Daxing District.


----------



## Restless

Silly_Walks said:


> Not even close:
> 
> Ten most densely populated countries
> 
> With population above 1 million
> Rank	Country/Region	Population	Area (km2)	Density
> (Pop. per km2)
> 1 Singapore	5,183,700	710	7301
> 2 Bahrain	1,234,596	750	1646
> 3 Bangladesh	152,518,015	147,570	1034
> 4 Taiwan (R.O.C)	22,955,395	36,190	634
> 5 Mauritius	1,288,000	2,040	631
> 6 South Korea	48,456,369	99,538	487
> *6-7 China-16provinces 883million 1,990,000 km2 443people per km2*
> 7 Rwanda	10,718,379	26,338	407
> 8 England	53,013,000	130,440	406
> 9 Netherlands	16,760,000	41,526	404
> 10 Lebanon	4,224,000	10,452	404
> *10+ USA - Northeast Corridor 50million people 139,000 km2 360people per km2*
> 
> 
> 
> China has lots of inhabitants, but it is also immense geographically.
> 
> 
> There are big areas with a very high population density, but the same goes for the US.


Please see the most densely populated areas of the USA and China above, with the population figures highlighted in RED.

You can clearly see that 883million people in China would constitute the 7th most densely populated country in the world, whilst the USA Northeast Corridor doesn't even make the list.

Also remember that smaller countries have no need for HSR


----------



## Silly_Walks

Restless said:


> Please see the most densely populated areas of the USA and China above, with the population figures highlighted in RED.
> 
> You can clearly see that 883million people in China would constitute the 7th most densely populated country in the world, whilst the USA Northeast Corridor doesn't even make the list.
> 
> Also remember that smaller countries have no need for HSR


Spain: Density	93/km2
France:	Density	116/km2 
Germany: Density	229/km2

The Northeast Corridor of the USA with 360/km2 and the China 16 provinces with 443/km2 *BOTH* warrant HSR. 
There is no discussion.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Qtya said:


> Sorry guys, but I sadly don't follow this thread that much... Could someone please update me on the state of the Shanghai - Hong Kong HSR line?


Which one?
Shanghai-Hangzhou-Ningbo-Wenzhou-Fuzhou-Xiamen-Longhua-Futian-Kowloon West?
Or Shanghai-Hangzhou-Nanchang-Changsha-Guangzhou-Longhua-Futian-Kowloon West?


----------



## Qtya

chornedsnorkack said:


> Shanghai-Hangzhou-Ningbo-Wenzhou-Fuzhou-Xiamen-Longhua-Futian-Kowloon West?


The coastal line...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Qtya said:


> The coastal line...


Hangzhou-Ningbo and Xiamen-Longhua are delayed into 2013.


----------



## Qtya

chornedsnorkack said:


> Hangzhou-Ningbo and Xiamen-Longhua are delayed into 2013.


So I heard... I'll be in Shanghai in late May. Hopefully it will be completed by that time... Thx, though...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> ^^ The only uncertainty is Nanjing-Hangzhou and Hangzhou-Ningbo, infrastructure construction of Nanjing-Hangzhou hasn't completed and joint calibration and testing won't start until October at the earliest, which will last 144 days according to a Shanghai RB document. Same with Hangzhou-Ningbo, there is no date yet for the start of testings.


Has any date for Hangzhou-Ningbo tests been disclosed?


----------



## phoenixboi08

Thanks for those sites. Are they going to be extending the e-ticketing to non-Chinese (i.e. people without the ID cards) anytime soon? I'd really like that, I always have issues ordering at the window haha



China Hand said:


> This is already the case in China for NNNN and KNNN trains as the stations are usually adjacent to a bus terminal and surrounded by hotels of all price points.
> 
> This is one of the few flaws in the China CRH system - you must make certain that you arrive at your destination early evening so that you can take a bus or subway or CRH to your final destination (or have a friend with auto pick you up). Arriving at Guangzhou South at 11:30pm and having few choices for ongoing transport is not enjoyable.
> 
> Taking any late day trains will get you to a nice, shiny, new, enormous HSR terminal in the middle of nowhere late at night with no way to continue on.


This is a very good point. The metro in Shanghai closes by about 11pm. I guess it has to do with the fact that it costs more to operate per-passenger mile than during the day?

Also, why not run short commuter trains between the stations (specifically during the periods where the metros aren't running)? Though, it'd probably be a bit of a logistical nightmare.


----------



## China Hand

phoenixboi08 said:


> Thanks for those sites. Are they going to be extending the e-ticketing to non-Chinese (i.e. people without the ID cards) anytime soon?.


They already do. Use your passport and residence visa number as the PRCID number.

The issue with 12306 is that it is in Mandarin.

Have a friend help or use online translations.


----------



## phoenixboi08

China Hand said:


> They already do. Use your passport and residence visa number as the PRCID number.
> 
> The issue with 12306 is that it is in Mandarin.
> 
> Have a friend help or use online translations.


Oh! Didn't know that 
I just remembered the first phase only being available to Chinese residents (or maybe it was ALL residents and I was just misinformed, probably).


----------



## gdolniak

chornedsnorkack said:


> [...]
> 
> A city that does have its centre dug up to build a HSR station is Shenzhen.
> 
> [...]


... and Hong Kong (or Kowloon West to be exact)


----------



## gdolniak

Guangshen CRH1 line ("old" one) has a new seat numbering system. Similar as on the places, the seats are numbered 1A, 1B, 1C, ... 1F and so on. Anyone wants a window seat, ask for "A" or "F".


----------



## gdolniak

bearb said:


> unfortunately not
> 
> someone decided to name the old Buji station as Shenzhen East
> 
> in my opinion, simply add 'Shenzhen' in the front then 'Shenzhen Buji station' will work clearly and easily for the people who want to travel to Shenzhen
> but some stupid decided to change the whole city around
> 
> then the old 'Shenzhen East station' will be named something different
> 
> probably the metro station next to it will not be called Buji Station anymore


If this news is true, the new station name would definitively cause some confusion, as you have two big "East" stations about 100km apart on the same line. 

Will CRH1 stop at the new Buji, sorry East, station?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

It is 21st today.

On 30th, Moon Cake Holiday starts a 8 day vacation, so hundreds of millions of Chinese need to be home.

On which day does Wuhan-Zhengzhou high speed railway open?


----------



## yaohua2000

phoenixboi08 said:


> Oh! Didn't know that
> I just remembered the first phase only being available to Chinese residents (or maybe it was ALL residents and I was just misinformed, probably).


12306 accepts foreign passport from day one. The only things prevent you from using it are:
• A UnionPay-compatible bank account.
• A Chinese mobile phone number to receive verify SMS during the sign up process.


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> It is 21st today.
> 
> On 30th, Moon Cake Holiday starts a 8 day vacation, so hundreds of millions of Chinese need to be home.
> 
> On which day does Wuhan-Zhengzhou high speed railway open?


I want to know, too. I hope any day very soon, now.


----------



## FM 2258

I love the YouTube videos posted online for CRH trains. Noticing the announcements I thought they would be the same around the CRH system but they all seem to be different. Different announcement tones, different music is played. I love how train number is announced in this video from Xi'an - Zhengzhou.


----------



## gnatho

China Hand said:


> I want to know, too. I hope any day very soon, now.


September 28th

According to the Ministry of Railways, the quickest travel from Guangzhou North to Zhengzhou East will take *5 hrs 56 mins* (G548)


----------



## gnatho

*Xi'an North to Shenzhen North:*

G824 / 1: 11.45 Xi'an North -> 21:00 to Shenzhen North. 
G822 / 3: 9:15 Shenzhen North -> 18:35 to Xi'an North. 

Full fare : second-class seat 891 yuan, first-class seat 1,404 yuan

*Xi'an North to Guangzhou South: *

G834 8:10 Xi'an North -> Guangzhou South 16:59
G838 9:40 Xi'an North -> Guangzhou South 18:32
G842 12:45 Xi'an North -> Guangzhou South 21:19 
G846 14:25 Xi'an North -> Guangzhou South 23:03

*Guangzhou South to Xi'an North: *

G832 7:15 Guangzhou South -> Xi'an North 16:13
G836 11:32 Guangzhou South -> Xi'an North 20:30
G840 12:10 Guangzhou South -> Xi'an North 20:57
G844 13:25 Guangzhou South -> Xi'an North 22:00

Full fare : second-class seat 816 yuan, first-class seat 1304 yuan

*Xi'an North to Changsha:*

G854 15:45 Xi'an North -> Changsha South 21:59
G852 8:50 Changsha South -> Xi'an North 15:15

Full fare : second-class seat 592 yuan, first-class seat 947 yuan

*Xi'an North to Wuhan:*

G858 15:00 Xi'an North -> Wuhan 19:46
G856 9:35 Xi'an North -> Wuhan 14:26 

Full fare : second-class seat 459 yuan, first-class seat 734 yuan

Source


----------



## hkskyline

gnatho said:


> September 28th
> 
> According to the Ministry of Railways, the quickest travel from Guangzhou North to Zhengzhou East will take *5 hrs 56 mins* (G548)


Ah .. so that's the indirect alignment, wasting time to route through Zhengzhou.


----------



## George08

FM 2258 said:


> I love the YouTube videos posted online for CRH trains. Noticing the announcements I thought they would be the same around the CRH system but they all seem to be different. Different announcement tones, different music is played. I love how train number is announced in this video from Xi'an - Zhengzhou.


It looks like the old Xi'an station in the video


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> Ah .. so that's the indirect alignment, wasting time to route through Zhengzhou.


South of Xian, there are Qinling Mountains. Hard to traverse, then only at a slow speed, and few people. A few railways do cross, but surely the short cut via slow speed rail would waste far longer than the high speed line via Zhengzhou.


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> I love the YouTube videos posted online for CRH trains. Noticing the announcements I thought they would be the same around the CRH system but they all seem to be different. Different announcement tones, different music is played. I love how train number is announced in this video from Xi'an - Zhengzhou.


Interesting video, I think the information announcement is somewhat uniform across CRH services, however the welcome message and introduction of the train is unique to each railway bureau IMO. That kind of long introduction would never worked on intercity services such as Shanghai-Nanjing, by the time it's done the train will be pulling into Kunshan Station already.


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> South of Xian, there are Qinling Mountains. Hard to traverse, then only at a slow speed, and few people. A few railways do cross, but surely the short cut via slow speed rail would waste far longer than the high speed line via Zhengzhou.


Those mountains contain other tunnels that a public railway would not be allowed to traverse...



gnatho said:


> September 28th
> 
> According to the Ministry of Railways, the quickest travel from Guangzhou North to Zhengzhou East will take 5 hrs 56 mins (G548)


My back of the envelope calculations indicate a top speed of no more than 290kph for that section if the length is 514 to 536km and the time is 2h6m.


----------



## big-dog

*9.19 Baiyanghe (白杨河) Bridge main structure completed*

The bridge is located in Xinjiang, on the 2nd rail link (HSR) between Lanzhou and Xinjiang.

Length: 495m
Height: 60m









*Lanzhou-Xinjiang (兰新线) 2nd rail:*
Length: 1,776 km, 31 stations
Total cost: 14.35 billion yuan
Speed: 200km/h (designed max 350km/h)
Construction: 11/4/2009 ~ 2014

Upon its completion, an overnight sleeper train is expected to connect Beijing to Ürümqi, 3,450 km apart, in less than 12 hours


Bold blue line (click to enlarge), from wikipedia

-baidu.com


----------



## foxmulder

The idea of a high speed rail line from Beijing to Ürümqi amazes me. 

However, still, the idea of Harbin to Hong Kong beats it


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> *Lanzhou-Xinjiang (兰新线) 2nd rail:*
> Length: 1,776 km, 31 stations
> Total cost: 14.35 billion yuan
> Speed: 200km/h (designed max 350km/h)
> Construction: 11/4/2009 ~ 2014
> 
> Upon its completion, an overnight sleeper train is expected to connect Beijing to Ürümqi, 3,450 km apart, in less than 12 hours


As of the opening of Urumqi-Lanzhou, sometime in 2014, at 200 km/h top speed, what shall be the trip time Urumqi-Lanzhou?

When is high speed railway Lanzhou-Baoji due for completion?
When is high speed railway Baoji-Xian due for completion?

As of 2014, what shall be the trip time Beijing-Baoji?


----------



## George08

foxmulder said:


> The idea of a high speed rail line from Beijing to Ürümqi amazes me.
> 
> However, still, the idea of Harbin to Hong Kong beats it


totally agree with you


----------



## FM 2258

foxmulder said:


> The idea of a high speed rail line from Beijing to Ürümqi amazes me.
> 
> However, still, the idea of Harbin to Hong Kong beats it



This is a very long high speed railway line. Design speed is 350km/h, so I wonder if they will eventually run trains at 350km/h in the future. It doesn't seem like any trains in China run at 350km/h according to videos I see. They all top out around 300 sometimes getting up to 330km/h.



big-dog said:


> *9.19 Baiyanghe (白杨河) Bridge main structure completed*
> 
> The bridge is located in Xinjiang, on the 2nd rail link (HSR) between Lanzhou and Xinjiang.
> 
> Length: 495m
> Height: 60m
> http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx216/davidwei01/97f6735fjw1dx7dwcr5fgj_zps11e767a3.jpg
> 
> *Lanzhou-Xinjiang (兰新线) 2nd rail:*
> Length: 1,776 km, 31 stations
> Total cost: 14.35 billion yuan
> Speed: 200km/h (designed max 350km/h)
> Construction: 11/4/2009 ~ 2014
> 
> Upon its completion, an overnight sleeper train is expected to connect Beijing to Ürümqi, 3,450 km apart, in less than 12 hours
> 
> 
> Bold blue line (click to enlarge), from wikipedia
> 
> -baidu.com


Thanks for the map and picture. The bridges for the high speed railway lines look very sturdy and solid.


----------



## yaohua2000

*Hefei–Bengbu HSR Line*

Rumor says the Hefei–Bengbu HSR Line will be opened on October 16. Direct G trains will run between:
• Bengbu–Hefei: 4 trains a day
• Beijing–Hefei: 7 trains a day
• Tianjin–Hefei: 1 train a day
• Jinan–Hefei: 1 train a day
• Qingdao–Hefei: 1 train a day


----------



## chornedsnorkack

FM 2258 said:


> This is a very long high speed railway line. Design speed is 350km/h, so I wonder if they will eventually run trains at 350km/h in the future. It doesn't seem like any trains in China run at 350km/h according to videos I see. They all top out around 300 sometimes getting up to 330km/h.


The trains did run at 350 km/h in the past.
Are there any news of plans to speed trains up again, even to 320 km/h at first?


----------



## laojang

foxmulder said:


> The idea of a high speed rail line from Beijing to Ürümqi amazes me.
> 
> However, still, the idea of Harbin to Hong Kong beats it


It seems the Shanghai to Urumqi line, when completed, 
is more amazing. It is longer (about 4000 Km) and it goes 
through harder terrains West of Xian all the way to Urumqi. Only Xu Zhou to Zhengzhou and
Baoji to Lanzhou sections are not in construction yet.

Laojang


----------



## big-dog

FM 2258 said:


> This is a very long high speed railway line. Design speed is 350km/h, so I wonder if they will eventually run trains at 350km/h in the future. It doesn't seem like any trains in China run at 350km/h according to videos I see. They all top out around 300 sometimes getting up to 330km/h.
> 
> Thanks for the map and picture. The bridges for the high speed railway lines look very sturdy and solid.


You are welcome. From the news the Lanzhou-Xinjiang (兰新线) 2nd rail will run at 200km/h on opening. I assume it will allow higher speed when other parts of Beijing-Urumqi is completed and in operation.


----------



## China Hand

FM 2258 said:


> This is a very long high speed railway line. Design speed is 350km/h, so I wonder if they will eventually run trains at 350km/h in the future. It doesn't seem like any trains in China run at 350km/h according to videos I see. They all top out around 300 sometimes getting up to 330km/h.


Oh definitely. Before the two slowdowns during the first few months of the Wuhan-Guangzhou line I took a G train that was 3 hours and 16 minutes, average speed of just under 300kph.

Top speed of 352 or 353, so they do indeed run at that velocity.

It's the cost and wear, that pesky power formula P = I × V = R × I^2 = V^2 ⁄ R and the wheel, carriage, pantograph and to a lesser extent wind resistance that slowed them down.

Wear, maintenance costs and electricity required to move the train all increase with velocity.


----------



## FM 2258

big-dog said:


> You are welcome. From the news the Lanzhou-Xinjiang (兰新线) 2nd rail will run at 200km/h on opening. I assume it will allow higher speed when other parts of Beijing-Urumqi is completed and in operation.


I have to get the idea out of my head that 200km/h(124mph) is "slow." I look at my speedometer now and realize if I could cruise down the freeway at 124mph, that's pretty fast. I'm just greedy to see more speed. 124mph from Guangzhou to Shenzhen seemed really quick when I took the CRH1 back in 2010. 




China Hand said:


> Oh definitely. Before the two slowdowns during the first few months of the Wuhan-Guangzhou line I took a G train that was 3 hours and 16 minutes, average speed of just under 300kph.
> 
> Top speed of 352 or 353, so they do indeed run at that velocity.
> 
> It's the cost and wear, that pesky power formula P = I × V = R × I^2 = V^2 ⁄ R and the wheel, carriage, pantograph and to a lesser extent wind resistance that slowed them down.
> 
> Wear, maintenance costs and electricity required to move the train all increase with velocity.


:lol:....P = I * * * , was never good at math. Gotta hate that velocity squared stuff  

So did the MOR have the grand idea of running trains at 350-380km/h then realize it was too expensive to run them at those speeds? Maybe they're learning something because they're the first country to attempt running trains at higher than 300km/h on a regular basis.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

FM 2258 said:


> Maybe they're learning something because they're the first country to attempt running trains at higher than 300km/h on a regular basis.


No.

France opened LGV Est at 320 km/h back in 2007, before China opened Beijing-Tianjin. And France has never slowed down.


----------



## hmmwv

^^ And Spain will start running HSR at 330km/h too when CRH is still artificially limited to 300km/h.

The passenger comfort of the Paris-Marseilles TGV OTOH is completely garbage compare CRH or Shinkansen trains. I was on it when it's doing about 300km/h and it rocks so badly that a kid walking down the isle kept on banging her head on the seats, and eventually burst out crying, it's so sad.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

FM 2258 said:


> I have to get the idea out of my head that 200km/h(124mph) is "slow." I look at my speedometer now and realize if I could cruise down the freeway at 124mph, that's pretty fast. I'm just greedy to see more speed. 124mph from Guangzhou to Shenzhen seemed really quick when I took the CRH1 back in 2010.


Oh, compared to car it is fast. Note, however, that a private car 
1) does not stop to pick up and drop off passengers who go to intermediate stations
2) departs when wanted, not when scheduled
3) continues to doorstep without connecting.

A 200 km/h train is fast enough to pass a private car, provided that
1) it does not lose too much time in intermediate stations
2) it has sufficiently frequent schedule
3) the destination and origin are near enough to stations where it does stop, or are connected by efficient public transport and
4) the distance is long enough to make up for time spent at the ends.

Actually, I think 200 km/h is something of a sweet spot compared to 120 km/h... does China need more 200 km/h railways?


----------



## Sunfuns

hmmwv said:


> ^^ And Spain will start running HSR at 330km/h too when CRH is still artificially limited to 300km/h.
> 
> The passenger comfort of the Paris-Marseilles TGV OTOH is completely garbage compare CRH or Shinkansen trains. I was on it when it's doing about 300km/h and it rocks so badly that a kid walking down the isle kept on banging her head on the seats, and eventually burst out crying, it's so sad.


Really? I've never been on that particular line but have used Basel-Paris both on the old route (via Strasbourg) and on the brand new one (via Dijon) and it was nice enough. Their old trains aren't particularly comfortable (compared to the newest Swiss or German trains), but the new double deckers are very good.


----------



## China Hand

FM 2258 said:


> So did the MOR have the grand idea of running trains at 350-380km/h then realize it was too expensive to run them at those speeds? Maybe they're learning something because they're the first country to attempt running trains at higher than 300km/h on a regular basis.


I do not know but engineers on the line that I have spoken to have told me that "350+kph is just too fast", perhaps referring to going from 60/76kph NNNN trains leaping to 380kph in 10 years in one nation.

China may just need time to get systems and operations expertise up to speed. At this rate of growth they simply do not have enough maintenance or operational crew years to cross train [as in training others how to do something].

It's also more costly. Faster they go, the more electricity they consume, the more wear, friction, resistance, etc.

Give them a few years to learn and I think they will upgrade with time as they fine tune the tracks, learn and improve. Certainly they figured out how to tweak and improve the train-sets and engines. It's likely the same learning curve will happen with track and track speeds.

But they need the track and experience on it to learn, and that takes time.

=============

On the Wuhan-Guangzhou line at first it was fast and quiet, my second ride was a bit bumpier and louder and swayed as hmmv described the TGV, then they slowed down, dialed it back in and it became smoother than my first trip. So they are learning and keeping the ride quality the same, or better.


----------



## China Hand

FM 2258 said:


> I have to get the idea out of my head that 200km/h(124mph) is "slow."


Well, the Xian-Zhengzhou line is 350 rated but when it goes through tunnels it sometimes slows to 224 or less. The line to Urumqi will go through many tunnels, grade ascents and rough terrain, so that it may be prudent to ease back on the throttle even though it's 350 rated.

Hitting a rock at 350kph that fell from a cliff wall...not so much a good thing.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

China Hand said:


> Well, the Xian-Zhengzhou line is 350 rated but when it goes through tunnels it sometimes slows to 224 or less. The line to Urumqi will go through many tunnels, grade ascents and rough terrain, so that it may be prudent to ease back on the throttle even though it's 350 rated.
> 
> Hitting a rock at 350kph that fell from a cliff wall...not so much a good thing.


If you haven't noticed, high speed rail systems shore up the hillsides next to the track; they remove all trees and loose rocks and replace them with concrete so that the chance of loose objects rolling down the hill and striking the train is minimal. Furthermore, most systems install a plethora of trackside sensors to detect cases when things do go wrong (even CRH installed trackside subsidence detectors that warned about 4mm subsidence.). So, I will say that such is not a legit reason to slow down trains--I'd be more inclined to say it is because wind pressure and air resistance drastically builds up in tunnels.


----------



## China Hand

Zhengzhou East to Wuhan Schedules just posted to http://www.chinatrainguide.com

Here are most:

Train Number, Departing Station
Time of Departure, Arriving Station
Time of Arrival, Trip Elapsed Time, Distance in km, 2nd Class Price/1st Class Price in Yuan

*WUHAN*
G538/G535	Zhengzhou
07:05	Wuhan
09:19	2h14m	545	245/294

G650/G647	Zhengzhou East
08:00	Wuhan
10:18	2h18m	545	245/294

G541	Zhengzhou East
08:37	Wuhan
10:48	2h11m	536	234/280

G543	Zhengzhou East
09:50	Wuhan
12:01	2h11m	536	234/280

G834/G831	Zhengzhou East
10:48	Wuhan
12:47	1h59m	536	234/280

G641	Zhengzhou East
10:55	Wuhan
13:00	2h5m	536	234/280

G73	Zhengzhou East
11:10	Wuhan
13:16	2h6m	536	234/280

G531	Zhengzhou East
11:20	Wuhan
13:29	2h9m	536	234/280

G838/G835	Zhengzhou East
12:14	Wuhan
14:20	2h6m	536	234/280

G643	Zhengzhou East
12:50	Wuhan
14:58	2h8m	536	234/280

G533	Zhengzhou East
13:53	Wuhan
16:14	2h21m	536	234/280

G824/G821	Zhengzhou
14:00	Wuhan
15:56	1h56m	545	245/294

G842/G839	Zhengzhou
15:00	Wuhan
17:07	2h7m	545	245/294

G545	Zhengzhou East
15:45	Wuhan
17:56	2h11m	536	234/280

G846/G843	Zhengzhou
16:38	Wuhan
18:42	2h4m	545	245/294

G547	Zhengzhou East
17:12	Wuhan
19:14	2h2m	536	234/280

G858/G855	Zhengzhou East
17:40	Wuhan
19:46	2h6m	536	234/280

G854/G851	Zhengzhou East
18:19	Wuhan
20:23	2h4m	536	234/280

G645	Zhengzhou East
19:28	Wuhan
21:33	2h5m	536	234/280

*SHENZHEN*
G73	Zhengzhou East
11:10	Shenzhen North
18:32	7h22m	1707	633/759
**Take any train to Guangzhou South and just get on the next shuttle to Shenzhen as trains run every 30/45 minutes.

*GUANGZHOU SOUTH*
G541	Zhengzhou East
08:37	Guangzhou South
15:12	6h35m	1605	599/719

G543	Zhengzhou East
09:50	Guangzhou South
16:30	6h40m	1605	599/719

G834/G831	Zhengzhou East
10:48	Guangzhou South
16:59	6h11m	1605	599/719

G73	Zhengzhou East
11:10	Guangzhou South
17:52	6h42m	1605	599/719

G838/G835	Zhengzhou East
12:14	Guangzhou South
18:32	6h18m	1605	599/719

G545	Zhengzhou East
15:45	Guangzhou South
22:16	6h31m	1605	599/719

G547	Zhengzhou East
17:12	Guangzhou South
23:40	6h28m	1605	599/719


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Note that while Zhengzhou-Guangzhou South is served by 11 trains daily, these take between 6:11 and 6:42.

None of them is an express.


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> Note that while Zhengzhou-Guangzhou South is served by 11 trains daily, these take between 6:11 and 6:42.
> 
> None of them is an express.


259.6 kph just not quick enough for you, eh?

Think about what an express train would mean and its implementation.

Please post your solution to running an express train on that line.


----------



## FM 2258

George08 said:


> It looks like the old Xi'an station in the video


Is there supposed to be a brand new Xi'an station for CRH services? It sounds like the train engineer blasts the horn several times while leaving the station. It doesn't look like there are any road crossings, maybe just to warn people in the station area? 



hmmwv said:


> Interesting video, I think the information announcement is somewhat uniform across CRH services, however the welcome message and introduction of the train is unique to each railway bureau IMO. That kind of long introduction would never worked on intercity services such as Shanghai-Nanjing, by the time it's done the train will be pulling into Kunshan Station already.


I like how the girl calls out the numbers in English. It was interesting to hear music for so long after the announcements since they were pretty long. Shanghai-Nanjing announcements from what I've seen in videos are short and sweet, no music or other soothing elements. I like that different railway bureaus do things slightly different.


----------



## George08

*@FM2258*

The Xi'an North Railway Station (Chinese: 西安北站; pinyin: Xī'ānběi​ Zhàn) is a railway station of Zhengxi Passenger Railway and Xibao Passenger Railway. The station located in Weiyang District of Xi'an City (the capital of Shaanxi Province of China). It is some 10 km north of the city center and the "old" Xi'an Railway Station.
The station has 34 platforms. It is the largest train station in Northwest China.
The station is connected to downtown Xi'an by Line 2 of Xi'an Metro.
The station was opened on January 11, 2011.

As of May 2012, Xi'an North Station is served only by the fast (G-series and D-series) trains running on the Zhengzhou–Xi'an High-Speed Railway; one of them continues south to Hankou. All other passenger trains serving Xi'an (including the D-series trains west to Baoji) run from Xi'an Railway Station, just north of downtown. This is likely to change once the Xi'an–Baoji High-Speed Railway (currently under construction) is completed.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> 259.6 kph just not quick enough for you, eh?
> 
> Think about what an express train would mean and its implementation.
> 
> Please post your solution to running an express train on that line.


Simple.
On the direction Shenzhen-Wuhan, there are 12 G trains daily.
This includes 7 non-express trains Shenzhen-Wuhan numbered G1012 to G1024, trip time 4:47 (G1024) to 5:11 (G1020), and 2 non-express trains Shenzhen-Xian (G822/G823, 4:48 Shenzhen-Wuhan) and Shenzhen-Zhengzhou (G74, 5:01 Shenzhen-Wuhan).
But also 3 express trains G1002 to G1006, trip time 4:11 (G1004) to 4:13 (both the others).

My solution?

In addition to the 14 G trains continuing from Changsha-Wuhan to Wuhan-Zhengzhou (G74, 7 G5xx trains and 6 G8xx trains - none of them expresses) continue the 3 existing expresses 1002 to 1006 to Zhengzhou.
And make them expresses nonstop between Wuhan and Zhengzhou, like they already are between Guangzhou and Changsha.
Would this be feasible?


----------



## laojang

When the Beijing- Guangzhou-Shenzhen HSL fully opens (now only Beijing Zhengzhou section is left),
I guess there will be express G trains stopping only at the provincial 
capitals like Zhengzhou, Wuhan. 
This is judged from the current T15 trains on the old track. It goes from
BJ to GZ in 20hours 33 minutes stopping only at provincial 
capitals along the way: Shijiazhuang, Zhengzhou, Wuhan, Changsha.


Laojang






chornedsnorkack said:


> Simple.
> On the direction Shenzhen-Wuhan, there are 12 G trains daily.
> This includes 7 non-express trains Shenzhen-Wuhan numbered G1012 to G1024, trip time 4:47 (G1024) to 5:11 (G1020), and 2 non-express trains Shenzhen-Xian (G822/G823, 4:48 Shenzhen-Wuhan) and Shenzhen-Zhengzhou (G74, 5:01 Shenzhen-Wuhan).
> But also 3 express trains G1002 to G1006, trip time 4:11 (G1004) to 4:13 (both the others).
> 
> My solution?
> 
> In addition to the 14 G trains continuing from Changsha-Wuhan to Wuhan-Zhengzhou (G74, 7 G5xx trains and 6 G8xx trains - none of them expresses) continue the 3 existing expresses 1002 to 1006 to Zhengzhou.
> And make them expresses nonstop between Wuhan and Zhengzhou, like they already are between Guangzhou and Changsha.
> Would this be feasible?


----------



## FM 2258

China Hand said:


> I do not know but engineers on the line that I have spoken to have told me that "350+kph is just too fast", perhaps referring to going from 60/76kph NNNN trains leaping to 380kph in 10 years in one nation.
> 
> China may just need time to get systems and operations expertise up to speed. At this rate of growth they simply do not have enough maintenance or operational crew years to cross train [as in training others how to do something].
> 
> It's also more costly. Faster they go, the more electricity they consume, the more wear, friction, resistance, etc.
> 
> Give them a few years to learn and I think they will upgrade with time as they fine tune the tracks, learn and improve. Certainly they figured out how to tweak and improve the train-sets and engines. It's likely the same learning curve will happen with track and track speeds.
> 
> But they need the track and experience on it to learn, and that takes time.
> 
> =============
> 
> On the Wuhan-Guangzhou line at first it was fast and quiet, my second ride was a bit bumpier and louder and swayed as hmmv described the TGV, then they slowed down, dialed it back in and it became smoother than my first trip. So they are learning and keeping the ride quality the same, or better.


Understood. They're going to have to learn not just how to operate but maintain their system. Aside from their accident near Wenzhou (condolences for the people lost, families) they seem to be doing a really good job with their high speed rail operations. I've only taken one ride on the CRH system and it left and arrived on time, smooth and comfortable. 



George08 said:


> The Xi'an North Railway Station (Chinese: 西安北站; pinyin: Xī'ānběi​ Zhàn) is a railway station of Zhengxi Passenger Railway and Xibao Passenger Railway. The station located in Weiyang District of Xi'an City (the capital of Shaanxi Province of China). It is some 10 km north of the city center and the "old" Xi'an Railway Station.
> The station has 34 platforms. It is the largest train station in Northwest China.
> The station is connected to downtown Xi'an by Line 2 of Xi'an Metro.
> The station was opened on January 11, 2011.
> 
> As of May 2012, Xi'an North Station is served only by the fast (G-series and D-series) trains running on the Zhengzhou–Xi'an High-Speed Railway; one of them continues south to Hankou. All other passenger trains serving Xi'an (including the D-series trains west to Baoji) run from Xi'an Railway Station, just north of downtown. This is likely to change once the Xi'an–Baoji High-Speed Railway (currently under construction) is completed.


So was that the Xi'an North station the train was leaving from in the video? The youtube poster didn't seem to provide much more information than I could read.


----------



## Pansori

I have a question somewhat related to the Hangzhou-Shanghai HSR line.

There is an old article from 2011 with an opinion of a famed 'expert' N.Roubini where among other things he expresses his view on China's high speed trains

*"Meaningful probability" of a China hard landing: Roubini*
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/13/us-roubini-idUSTRE75C1OF20110613

In the article he says:



> Next to the train station is also the new local airport of Shanghai and you can *fly* to Hangzhou,"


Were there really flights between Shanghai Hongqiao (or Pudong) and Hangzhou at that time (2011)? :?

A friend of mine has suggested that such possibility was plausible even though he didn't give details.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Searching Kayak.com I don't see any flights between Shanghai(SHA/PVG) and Hangzhou. There are flights on China Eastern from PVG to Nanjing despite the high speed rail line running between the cities.


----------



## Pansori

^^
Yes I know that (I can do a serch too, I'm not stupid ). What I was asking is *were* there any direct flights between Shanghai and Hangzhou in *2011* (or the period of past few years)?


----------



## FM 2258

Pansori said:


> ^^
> Yes I know that (I can do a serch too, I'm not stupid ). What I was asking is *were* there any direct flights between Shanghai and Hangzhou in *2011* (or the period of past few years)?


I wonder that too about previous years. CRH has obviously make some air routes less feasible.


----------



## Pansori

FM 2258 said:


> I wonder that too about previous years. CRH has obviously make some air routes less feasible.


Surely so. However we must keep in mind that the distance between Hangzhou and Shanghai is just about 160km and cities are connected by 3 expressways. Which is why I was somewhat surprised to read that there might have been *flights* between those cities as late as 2011 when the HSR line was operational. That just wouldn't make any sense with or without the fast trains. Therefore I want to ask someone who either lives there and/or knows transport well to answer the question.

Or does Roubini (and my friend) not know what he's talking about?


----------



## hmmwv

Flights between Shanghai and Hangzhou ended even before CRH became available in 2007.

""I was recently in Shanghai and I took their high-speed train to Hangzhou," he said, referring to the new *Maglev* line that has cut traveling time between the two cities to less than an hour from four hours previously."
Nuff said about Reuters' reporting.


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Searching Kayak.com I don't see any flights between Shanghai(SHA/PVG) and Hangzhou. There are flights on China Eastern from PVG to Nanjing despite the high speed rail line running between the cities.


I'd suspect that flight will be terminated pretty soon, they operate a single ERJ145 on that flight and the ticket is always discounted at 90% off at Ctrip, so it'll only cost RMB100. So it's pretty much there for people who can't afford the RMB135 HSR ticket. :lol:


----------



## big-dog

*Zhengzhou-Wuhan HSR to open tomorrow (September 28)*

Zhengzhou-Wuhan HSR is part of Beijing-Guangzhou HSR.

Length: 536km
Speed: 300km/h (design speed 350km/h)
Stations: 9
Time: 116 minutes (fastest train)
Fare: ￥245 ($39) second class









New Zhengzhou East Station will open 9/28


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> Simple.
> On the direction Shenzhen-Wuhan, there are 12 G trains daily.
> This includes 7 non-express trains Shenzhen-Wuhan numbered G1012 to G1024, trip time 4:47 (G1024) to 5:11 (G1020), and 2 non-express trains Shenzhen-Xian (G822/G823, 4:48 Shenzhen-Wuhan) and Shenzhen-Zhengzhou (G74, 5:01 Shenzhen-Wuhan).
> But also 3 express trains G1002 to G1006, trip time 4:11 (G1004) to 4:13 (both the others).


So for 1/3rd of the entire line [2hours shorter trip, means you cover 1/3rd of a non-express train distance catching up to them and passing them] you need to delay or sidetrack the non-express trains as the express is coming through at 350kph avg.

Guangzhou-Wuhan has many stations that do NOT have side tracks, small stations in out of the way places, one set of tracks each direction.

Where are you going to put those slower trains?

Or just do it as the first train of the day?

This is part of the operational experience that needs to build up, it's the same with global lack of high level project engineers for large building projects, megatalls, supertalls. There is only so much talent and expertise to go around at first.

Once China finishes much of next year's CRH, they will have a large surplus of knowledge to then bring to bear on the finished and final routes being built.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> So for 1/3rd of the entire line [2hours shorter trip, means you cover 1/3rd of a non-express train distance catching up to them and passing them] you need to delay or sidetrack the non-express trains as the express is coming through at 350kph avg.
> 
> Guangzhou-Wuhan has many stations that do NOT have side tracks, small stations in out of the way places, one set of tracks each direction.
> 
> Where are you going to put those slower trains?
> 
> Or just do it as the first train of the day?


G1002 is NOT the first train of the day.

It departs Guangzhou South 10:28 (the first train having been G1102 at 7:00) and arrives at Wuhan 14:13, having passed on its way 2 trains, namely G1124 (10:15 to 14:38) and G544 (10:25 to 14:45).

Likewise, G1004 passes 3 trains (G536, G1154, G1156) and G1006 2 trains (G1164 and D2104).

Considered Wuhan-Zhengzhou seems to have less dense traffic than Guangzhou-Wuhan, passing of express trains should seem easier to arrange.


----------



## Pansori

hmmwv said:


> Flights between Shanghai and Hangzhou ended even before CRH became available in 2007.
> 
> ""I was recently in Shanghai and I took their high-speed train to Hangzhou," he said, referring to the new Maglev line that has cut traveling time between the two cities to less than an hour from four hours previously."
> Nuff said about Reuters' reporting.


Thanks for the info. Any more details or source on that?


----------



## George08

@FM 2258

The Station in that video looks like the OLD one.


*Zhengzhou-Wuhan HSR to open tomorrow (September 28)*

^^


Great news


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> Beijing-Zhengzhou is currently 250km/h, new rail will be competed and open at 350km/h by the end of 2012.


The D trains D123 and D125 take the same time - 5:32 - as T97. Are T trains suited for 250 km/h? Or does this indicate that Beijing-Zhengzhou, including D trains on it, is currently only 200 km/h or 160 km/h?

How are the tests of Wuhan-Shijiazhuang progressing? When in December shall it open?

How is the progress of Bengbu-Hefei high speed railway?


----------



## FM 2258

big-dog said:


> No, this isn't the same station for the Xi'an-Zhengzhou High Speed Railway. The new Zhengzhou East Station will only open today. It's said to be the Asia's largest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The old CRH trains will stay for now. The whole idea of the new HSR new lines is for capacity increase and providing more options to passengers (it's confirmed there's one pair of 200km/h CRH schedule on the new line). The old CRH schedule may be adjusted though to better fit the new requirement.


I see, it's not just replacement but capacity increase, very good. I didn't realize this would be called Zhengzhou East since I thought it would be the only train station for Zhengzhou. It's a very beautiful station. In one of the videos I posted above it was surprising to see CRH trains on the old railway line. 

...also thanks for the pictures!


----------



## yaohua2000

*Xi'an North to Shenzhen North*

I was on the first train from Xi'an North to Shenzhen North today. The trip was slightly more than 2000 km, and the it took 9 hours, 20 minutes, Shenzhen North arrival 5 minutes late. Top speed was 312 km/h. Zhengzhou–Wuhan section 14:00–16:00 in the graph, ignore those interrupts and spikes, tunnels block GPS signal.

Speed profile (click for the raw gpx trace):


----------



## yaohua2000

big-dog said:


> Beijing-Zhengzhou is currently 250km/h, new rail will be competed and open at 350km/h by the end of 2012.


Not true. Mr. Sheng Gaozu has slowed the section down to some 155 km/h.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Interesting graph *yaohua2000*, did you stay on one train for the whole trip? I guess it made a stop in Zhengzhou.


----------



## yaohua2000

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Interesting graph *yaohua2000*, did you stay on one train for the whole trip? I guess it made a stop in Zhengzhou.


Yes. It made 13 stops, include the origin and terminal stops.


----------



## gramercy

so, 214 km/h average speed with 13(11) stops, _impressive_


----------



## foxmulder

yaohua2000 said:


> I was on the first train from Xi'an North to Shenzhen North today. The trip was slightly more than 2000 km, and the it took 9 hours, 20 minutes, Shenzhen North arrival 5 minutes late. Top speed was 312 km/h. Zhengzhou–Wuhan section 14:00–16:00 in the graph, ignore those interrupts and spikes, tunnels block GPS signal.
> 
> Speed profile (click for the raw gpx trace):


Awesome job yaohua, thanks for sharing!


----------



## Pansori

What about the entire Beijing-Shenzhen line? If I got it right, it should be operational by the end of 2012? Is it going to be 350km/h through the entire route? And finally, are there going to be direct Beijing-Shenzhen trains from the opening time? I suppose that would require some serious schedule adjustments for other stretches (like Guangzhou-Wuhan).


----------



## China Hand

yaohua2000 said:


> I was on the first train from Xi'an North to Shenzhen North today. The trip was slightly more than 2000 km, and the it took 9 hours, 20 minutes, Shenzhen North arrival 5 minutes late. Top speed was 312 km/h. Zhengzhou–Wuhan section 14:00–16:00 in the graph, ignore those interrupts and spikes, tunnels block GPS signal


This is just outstanding work. A million thanks!

Do you recall time from Shenzhen North to the border via subway, if that is where you traveled after the CRH? It is about 20 minutes?


----------



## China Hand

Pansori said:


> What about the entire Beijing-Shenzhen line? If I got it right, it should be operational by the end of 2012? Is it going to be 350km/h through the entire route? And finally, are there going to be direct Beijing-Shenzhen trains from the opening time? I suppose that would require some serious schedule adjustments for other stretches (like Guangzhou-Wuhan).


I do not know. The Xian and Zhengzhou routes take one direct per day, but you can take any train to Guangzhou South and walk to the Shenzhen shuttle as they leave every 30 or 45 minutes.


----------



## hmmwv

I really dig those maintenance and construction pics.......


----------



## Gadiri

yaohua2000 said:


> I was on the first train from Xi'an North to Shenzhen North today. The trip was slightly more than 2000 km, and the it took 9 hours, 20 minutes, Shenzhen North arrival 5 minutes late. Top speed was 312 km/h. Zhengzhou–Wuhan section 14:00–16:00 in the graph, ignore those interrupts and spikes, tunnels block GPS signal.
> 
> Speed profile (click for the raw gpx trace):


Please, what software or application do you use for having such trainset ?


----------



## foxmulder

hmmwv said:


> I really dig those maintenance and construction pics.......


You are not alone


----------



## hmmwv




----------



## HunanChina

Zhengzhou East Railway Station for HSR of Shijiazhuang-Wuhan line


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## George08

^^
amazing


----------



## hmmwv

Zhengzhou East looks smaller than I expected.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Zhengzhou East looks really nice. China does put a lot of effort in designing their new railway stations. 



hmmwv said:


>


Which station is this?


----------



## laojang

must be Beijing South.

Laojang


----------



## Restless

Sopomon said:


> But, seriously, it's caked on. Where could such a thing happen? (Unless, of course,it simply hasn't been cleaned for a long time)


Maybe it passed through a sandstorm?

Beijing used to get hit fairly regularly.


----------



## George08

big-dog said:


> *10.8 Harbin-Dalian high-speed rail on trial run today*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 921 km HSR line will open officially by the end of this year. It will be the 1st HSR running in frigid area. The lowest design temperature is -40 ℃.
> 
> The design speed for the new line is 350km/h. It will take a bit over 3 hours to cover the full route, with 24 stations. Travel time between Shenyang and Dalian is reduced to 80 minutes.
> 
> New Harbin West Station
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video
> 
> -- Sina.com


^^

Great


----------



## FM 2258

^^

I love the red style on the Harbin West Railway station. What type of trains will be running on this line? Looks like the CRH3C and CRH380B. 



yaohua2000 said:


> [RUMOR] CIT500 test run tomorrow on Harbin–Dalian HSR Line


Great rumor....this is the CIT500 correct?


----------



## hmmwv

That test train must have been used for hot rolling test for the past few weeks, they don't get cleaned at all, unlike scheduled commercial trains which get cleaned very frequently.


----------



## Woonsocket54

When is work starting on the HSR tunnel between Dalian and Shandong?


----------



## ANR

*China tests world’s fastest alpine railway*

2012-10-08
chinatechgadget.com

China on Monday showcased the world’s first alpine high-speed rail line, which threads through the country’s three northeastern provinces. A test train departed from Harbin West Station, located in the capital of Heilongjiang Province, on Monday morning for Dalian, a port city in Liaoning Province. With a trial speed averaging 300 km per hour, the train completed the 921-kilometer journey in about four hours.

Engineers with the railway project said the rail track built using cutting-edge technology can accommodate temperatures between 40 degrees Celsius below zero and 40 degrees Celsius above freezing. Trains will be able to run at an average of 350 km per hour on the line after safety tests are conducted. They have adopted the eight-compartment CRH380B train model built by China Northern Railways.

The rail line, featuring 24 stations, is expected to go into normal operation by the end of the year. The populous northeastern provinces are known as China’s key industrial base, and the high-speed rail line is expected to ease the transportation bottleneck in the region. Harbin West, the line’s originating station, has been designed with 10 platforms with a combined dispatched passenger capacity of 7,000 passengers per hour at peak times.


----------



## China Hand

Dongbei riders should fully expect that if temps drop too low, that service will be slowed, delayed or closed for extreme cold spells.

Laws of physics and all that.

On the photo, I like the fact that the airflow over the cab can be clearly determined by the layers of dirt.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

ANR said:


> 2012-10-08
> chinatechgadget.com
> 
> China on Monday showcased the world’s first alpine high-speed rail line, which threads through the country’s three northeastern provinces.


There is nothing alpine about the line!

The water divide between Liaohe and Sungari around Changchun is quite flat, or very low hills.


----------



## big-dog

^^ I think it's about cold weather not landscapes.

Here's another article from Chinadaily.



> *Railway built to withstand extreme cold prepares to welcome travelers*
> 
> A high-speed railway linking major cities in Northeast China began trial operations on Monday, ahead of its launch at the end of the year.
> 
> The new line, which links Dalian, a port city in Liaoning province and Harbin, capital of Heilongjiang province, is the world's first high-speed railway built to withstand extreme cold weather conditions, according to a statement by Harbin railway authorities.
> 
> A test train departed Harbin on Monday morning, arriving in Dalian three-and-a-half hours later. The journey takes nine hours on an ordinary train.
> 
> The new line will make 24 stops and connect 10 cities, including the capitals of Liaoning, Jilin and Heilongjiang provinces.
> 
> Construction of the 921-kilometer line began in 2008. It is designed to reach a top speed of 350 kilometers per hour, but will travel initially at a maximum of 300 km/h, railway authorities said.
> 
> The line has to withstand extreme temperatures as low as -39.9 C in winter and as high as 40 C in summer, which poses major challenges to the trains and railway construction.
> 
> ... ...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Beijing-Hefei*

The distance Beijing-Nanjing is 1023 km, and the fastest trains (nonstop) cover the distance in 3:39.

The distance Beijing-Bengbu is 848 km, and the fastest trains (2 to 3 stops) cover the distance in 3:23.

The distance Bengbu-Hefei is 131 km. Therefore the distance Beijing-Hefei shall be 979 km.

When the high speed railway Bengbu-Hefei shall open, what shall be the travel time of fastest trains Beijing-Hefei?


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## Woonsocket54

big-dog said:


> ^^ I think it's about cold weather not landscapes.


Whatever it is, it's a lie, because Helsinki-Leningrad already has a HSR and that's probably 'alpine' whatever that means.


----------



## Pansori

Woonsocket54 said:


> Whatever it is, it's a lie, because Helsinki-Leningrad already has a HSR


The line between Helsinki and St. Petersburg can be called a HSR only if you really try to drag it to that. It's not even 200km/h throughtout the entire route, it's not a PDL. The travel time between Helsinki and St.Petersburg is 3:30 which gives it an average speed of around 115km/h. Whichever way you look at it, it can hardly be called a 'high-speed' line.


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## FM 2258

I know it gets pretty cold in France and Germany during the winter, how they deal with High Speed Rail in cold weather?


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## laojang

FM 2258 said:


> I know it gets pretty cold in France and Germany during the winter, how they deal with High Speed Rail in cold weather?


There may be a little hype here, but the claim is largely reasonable.
Due to its location below Eastern Siberia, Winter in Harbin is much colder than many other cold places in Europe or North America. Per Wikipedia, the 
January Ave. high is -12 C and low is -20 C, which makes it much colder than 
Moscow and colder than Minneapolis. 

Laojang


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## Woonsocket54

laojang said:


> There may be a little hype here, but the claim is largely reasonable.
> Due to its location below Eastern Siberia, Winter in Harbin is much colder than many other cold places in Europe or North America. Per Wikipedia, the
> January Ave. high is -12 C and low is -20 C, which makes it much colder than
> Moscow and colder than Minneapolis.
> 
> Laojang


But did they consider the Shinkansen to Nagano being in this category?


----------



## Restless

Woonsocket54 said:


> But did they consider the Shinkansen to Nagano being in this category?


Nagano has a record low of -17C

Harbin has a record low of -42C


===

And I think you need to chill

The other articles on the website have a lot of obvious grammatical mistakes, so I think "alpine" was just a mistake on the translation.


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## laojang

Nagano January temp: -5 to 3; Harbin: -24 to -12. [ a correction for what I wrote
(-20 to -12)]. So temperature wise, Nagano is balmy relatively. I think a comparable 
HSR line is the northern section of the Sinkansen to Hakodao. (Sorry about my translation
of Japanese names). But still the temperature is much higher than that in Harbin.
I believe Harbin is the coldest city on earth with a population over 2 million in January, although its
latitude is only about 46 degrees. There is a T train going from Harbin to Guangzhou. Sometimes it starts with -40 C and ends with +25 C, in 37 hours.

Laojang


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## George08

Harbin is almost in line with Sakhalin island (RUS)


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## Woonsocket54

laojang said:


> I believe Harbin is the coldest city on earth with a population over 2 million in January


Folks in Qiqihar might beg to differ


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## laojang

Woonsocket54 said:


> Folks in Qiqihar might beg to differ


The population in Qiqihar municipality is less than 2 million. The whole city with
the counties and rural area has a larger population. I only count the former.
I agree with you that Qiqihar is indeed colder. Is it the coldest city with 
1 million + population? I am not sure. May be Ulanbaartar, or elsewhere?

BYW, a HSL will connect Qiqihar with Harbin. 

Laojang


----------



## Silly_Walks

Any news on a temporary G/D train from Beijing to Harbin that will take advantage of this new bit of 350 km/h track?

And when will the 350 km/h track between Beijing and Shenyang open to form a full high speed Beijing-Harbin route?


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## Woonsocket54

Why is there so much open asphalt around Harbin West? Can't that land be put to better use?


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## Peloso

Woonsocket54 said:


> Why is there so much open asphalt around Harbin West? Can't that land be put to better use?


Just google "Chinese new year crowd" for images, I believe you'll grasp the rationale.


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## Woonsocket54

Peloso said:


> Just google "Chinese new year crowd" for images, I believe you'll grasp the rationale.


So once e-ticketing is available system-wide, the open space will be developed?


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## VECTROTALENZIS

^^

I don't think so, the open space is crowded normally as it functions as a meeting and gathering place, annd people waiting for the train for a couple of hours.


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## FM 2258

big-dog said:


> That photo should have some color distortion. The real color of Harbin West is brown.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> platform
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pics by anuo82, ditiezu.com


The color is still awesome. It's a great looking design, the Chinese don't skimp no design when it comes to their major railway stations. I too was wondering about the vast concrete area around the station but maybe they could use the space for something useful.


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## Woonsocket54

Some photos of Harbin West show some sort of bowl-like feature with an unknown purpose









http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2012-10/08/c_131893577.htm


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## foxmulder

There are two main entrances. that is why it looks like there are two versions 

The one with the "bowl" is south-east entrance. 

A lovely rail-port


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## Woonsocket54

*Changchun West Station*

Here are some photos of Changchun West station taken 2012.10.10:









http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2012-10/10/c_131897933_4.htm









http://www.bta.bg/bg/gallery/image/375468


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## big-dog

Woonsocket54 said:


> Some photos of Harbin West show some sort of bowl-like feature with an unknown purpose


It's a sunken square, connected with station underground, used for gathering, subway, taxis.



big-dog said:


> another photo of Harbin West
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --weibo.com


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## FM 2258

^^

Nice looking station as well. 

Is the Harbin West Railway Station the terminus for the HSR line? It looks like trains still pass through to the north, tracks seem to continue through the station instead of stop at the station. Where does the HSR line end?


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## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> It's a sunken square, connected with station underground, used for gathering, subway, taxis.


Which line of Harbin Subway serves the high speed station?


----------



## Woonsocket54

chornedsnorkack said:


> Which line of Harbin Subway serves the high speed station?


Line 3 (Glasgow-style orange loop)


----------



## big-dog

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Nice looking station as well.
> 
> Is the Harbin West Railway Station the terminus for the HSR line? It looks like trains still pass through to the north, tracks seem to continue through the station instead of stop at the station. Where does the HSR line end?


as far as HSR line is concerned, Harbin West is the northern most HSR station in China (Sanya is the southern most station).


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Woonsocket54 said:


> Line 3 (Glasgow-style orange loop)


Is that line 3 the one due to open first, in December 2012?


----------



## Traceparts

big-dog said:


> as far as HSR line is concerned, Harbin West is the northern most HSR station in China (Sanya is the southern most station).


Harbin West is not the northern most HSR station in China,
there is another HSL link Harbin ~ Daqing~Qiqihaer(哈大齐高铁)
so Qiqihaer south railway station is the northern most HSR station


----------



## big-dog

^^ you are right. Harbin South will have the title until Qiqihar South is completed.


----------



## Woonsocket54

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is that line 3 the one due to open first, in December 2012?


No, it's just line 1 that's opening this year.



big-dog said:


> ^^ you are right. Harbin South will have the title until Qiqihar South is completed.


You mean Harbin West?


----------



## FM 2258

big-dog said:


> ^^ you are right. Harbin South will have the title until Qiqihar South is completed.






Woonsocket54 said:


> No, it's just line 1 that's opening this year.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean Harbin West?


 :? I didn't know there was a "Harbin South" station. :?


Aside from the recent topics, are all D trains CRH trains and to CRH trains still run on the old railways? For example Shanghai to Nanjing has the old and the high speed line. In a video I saw they were running CRH2 trains on the old line parallel to the high speed line which was still under construction.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

FM 2258 said:


> Aside from the recent topics, are all D trains CRH trains and to CRH trains still run on the old railways?


Trains like D25, Beijing-Harbin, do run on old railways Beijing-Qinhuangdao and Shenyang-Harbin. Are they CRH trains?


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## Silver Swordsman

FM 2258 said:


> Nice picture. Where is the other line in the distance going?


I think that it's just the same line, opposite direction traffic. 

Just noticed, each one of those viaducts are single-direction only (note only one set of catenary poles contrary to a pair); I don't know why they would build two separate viaducts like that, though.


----------



## Pansori

Can anyone give a precise number of how many km of 300+ km/h standard lines are there in China right now?


----------



## foxmulder

Sopomon said:


> Not like that, but rather do they make sure that it seems to fit the landscape kind of environment? In Europe, a lot of thought goes into effectively 'hiding' the lines, so that the environment is left as is.


Personally, I prefer the look of elevated lines anyway  They look great.


----------



## Woonsocket54

Is Fengtai station in Beijing supposed to be an HSR station?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> Can anyone give a precise number of how many km of 300+ km/h standard lines are there in China right now?


Beijing-Shanghai - 1302
Zhengzhou-Wuhan - quoted as 536
Wuhan-Guangzhou - 968
Guangzhou - Longhua - 102
Beijing-Tianjin - 115
Shanghai-Nanjing - 301
Shanghai-Hangzhou - 169
Zhengzhou-Xian - 457
Hefei-Bengbu - 131

This should be full list of lines (oh, Taiwan too) - but I am not sure whether any of the lengths above include errors.


----------



## Pansori

chornedsnorkack said:


> Beijing-Shanghai - 1302
> Zhengzhou-Wuhan - quoted as 536
> Wuhan-Guangzhou - 968
> Guangzhou - Longhua - 102
> Beijing-Tianjin - 115
> Shanghai-Nanjing - 301
> Shanghai-Hangzhou - 169
> Zhengzhou-Xian - 457
> Hefei-Bengbu - 131
> 
> This should be full list of lines (oh, Taiwan too) - but I am not sure whether any of the lengths above include errors.


Thanks. That's useful. 

Also, what about Shenzhen-Guangzhou new line?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> Also, what about Shenzhen-Guangzhou new line?


In the list - Guangzhou-Longhua.
Longhua station is also known as Shenzhen North.

What is the current state of progress of Longhua-Futian high speed railway and of Futian station? In which year is Futian station due to open for service?


----------



## FM 2258

Silver Swordsman said:


> I think that it's just the same line, opposite direction traffic.
> 
> Just noticed, each one of those viaducts are single-direction only (note only one set of catenary poles contrary to a pair); I don't know why they would build two separate viaducts like that, though.


Yeah, I'm not sure why they would just use one double track bridge. I'm not an engineer so I'm sure they have their reasons. As for environmental issues the viaducts seem to be the best way to go. It's a win-win situation and many ways. Wildlife can migrate, trains won't run into deer at 217 mph(does China have deer?) and the passengers get a better view of the landscape. 



hmmwv said:


>


I assume that's the 250km/h CRH6. I wonder if the orange cheat line is going to be the final color. I like the standard blue-white for CRH trains.


----------



## hmmwv

Looks like Hefei-Bengbu line's station designer went back to the 1960s to seek design inspirations.


----------



## Sunfuns

Are there any reliable data concerning the cost per km for China's HSR lines (assuming easy geography)? If I remember correctly French standard was about 15 million $/km.


----------



## FM 2258

hmmwv said:


> CRH will introduce frequent rider program on the Shanghai-Nanjing line next month, passengers will be able to accumulate mileage in exchange of discounted or free tickets. Details are still being worked out.
> http://www.zgnt.net/content/2012-10/15/content_2105786.htm?utm_source=weibolife
> 
> The 342km Hainan West Ring Railway construction officially starts, the first section to be built is Fenghuang Airport to Sanya Station.
> http://www.chnrailway.com/news/20121010/1010416297.html
> 
> 2012 China railway fixed asset investment has been increased again to RMB 630 billion, infrastructure investment RMB 520 billion, 2013 budget will be on par on higher than this year's.
> http://news.hexun.com/2012-10-12/146677259.html?utm_source=weibolife


Hainan is going to be very well connected in the future as well. I took a bus from Sanya to Haikou, with a 30 minute taxi ride to the airport. The journey seemed to take over 4 hours.


----------



## hmmwv

Sunfuns said:


> Are there any reliable data concerning the cost per km for China's HSR lines (assuming easy geography)? If I remember correctly French standard was about 15 million $/km.


That's a good question, I think the exact figure is hard to come by because we don't see the final cost figure when the line is completed, only the projected project budget. For example the Hainan West Ring is 342km with a projected budget of RMB 29.4 billion which translates to about USD 12 million per km. Bear in mind this is a very low standard railway (200-250km/h) with very easy geography. Many Chinese HSR lines are actually built on very difficult terrains or facing extreme elements, such as Wuhan-Guangzhou (mountains), Harbin-Dalian (cold), Beijing-Shanghai (high speed, populated areas), Beijing-Shijiazhuang (mountains). Long lines such as Beijing-Shanghai or Wuhan-Guangzhou are over 80% viaducts or tunnels, plus the 350-380km/h construction standard, so in general I think the cost per km is higher than European countries.

Some figures I calculated from projected cost divided by length found online:

Lanzhou-Urumqi $13M/km
Wuhan-Guangzhou $17.4M/km
Beijing-Shanghai $26.8M/km
Beijing-Shijiazhuang $24.9M/km
Shijiazhuang-Wuhan $22.2M/km
Zhenzhou-Xi'an $15.8M/km
Haibin-Dalian $16.3M/km
Shanghai-Nanjing $21M/km
Hefei-Bengbu $18M/km


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> Hainan is going to be very well connected in the future as well. I took a bus from Sanya to Haikou, with a 30 minute taxi ride to the airport. The journey seemed to take over 4 hours.


Must be a nice journey, I've never been to Hainan and very much looking forward to. I think the West Ring will be just like East Ring where sections of the line will be very close to the shoreline. If I'm not mistaken it'll still be quicker to get from Sanya to Haikou using the East Ring.


----------



## laojang

chornedsnorkack said:


> Impossible.
> 
> G trains go to Bengbu South. K, Z and T trains depart from Bengbu. No way to connect!


You are right. They are about 10 km apart. 

Laojang


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> In related news, the former Buji Railway Station will be re-named Shenzhen East Railway Station and is scheduled to open at the end of October.
> 
> The railway station, part of Buji’s transport hub, is linked with Metro’s Longgang and Huanzhong lines and with the Guangzhou-Shenzhen railway. Covering 127,000 square meters, the terminal also offers city bus, taxi and long-distance bus services.
> 
> Shenzhen East Railway Station is designed to handle 50,000 passengers a day in its initial stages.


It is second half of October.

On which day of this month shall Buji Station open?


----------



## George08

*Harbin-Dalian High-speed Railway will be on trial on Dec. 8th and to be put into operation one month later*

After more than 4-months of joint debugging and joint tests, Harbin-Dalian High-speed Railway will be on trial on Dec. 8th and to put into operation one month later.
Harbin-Dalian passenger line is an important part of the Beijing-Harbin line and will be the first alpine high speed rail where the train will travel at 350 kilometers per hour. In the world, only Russia and the Nordic region operate three alpine railways at minus 40 ° C low temperature environment, a total mileage of less than 700 km.

http://english.dbw.cn/system/2012/10/11/000573541.shtml


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## Silly_Walks

hmmwv said:


> Long lines such as Beijing-Shanghai or Wuhan-Guangzhou are over 80% viaducts or tunnels, plus the 350-380km/h construction standard, so in general I think the cost per km is higher than European countries.


I don't know about all European countries, but considering China's cheap labor, land, etc. costs I think China has a far lower cost per km than, for example, the Netherlands.


----------



## kw0943

So china's high speed rail is back up to 350 km/h? An Youtube video to prove that would be great.

Also, as far as the previous answer goes, I think most high speed rail lines are elevated or underground.


----------



## Pansori

kw0943 said:


> So china's high speed rail is back up to 350 km/h?


Where did you get such information?


----------



## foxmulder

> Long lines such as Beijing-Shanghai or Wuhan-Guangzhou are over 80% viaducts or tunnels, plus the 350-380km/h construction standard, so in general I think the cost per km is higher than European countries.





Silly_Walks said:


> I don't know about all European countries, but considering China's cheap labor, land, etc. costs I think China has a far lower cost per km than, for example, the Netherlands.



Well, hmmwv has a point too though. I think the cost is similar between the two.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Seems that there are currently 11 daily flights Zhengzhou-Guangzhou. So frequencies are identical.

Trip time is 2:10 to 2:25.


----------



## foxmulder

Sunfuns said:


> Surely airplanes could out-compete a train on distances this large. Unless maybe they are not allowed to...


Dude, I think you are not aware of the investment China doing on air travel. 2 out of 3 airports currently under construction on the world is in China and passenger aircraft development is a priority project as rail development for the government. There is no way a situation can arise where airlines "are not allowed to compete".


I still choose the high speed rail in any case


----------



## George08

*Work begins on high-speed railway in western China*

XI'AN - Construction work started Saturday on a major high-speed railway in China's western hinterland to promote local economic cooperation and development.
The 643-km-long railway line for passenger transport links Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province to Chengdu, capital of the southwestern province of Sichuan.
The project will be completed in five years with an investment of more than 40 billion yuan (about 6.35 billion US dollars). The travel time between the two cities will be shortened to three hours from 12 hours currently, after the new railway is put into operation.
The line will have 127 km of tunnels to pass through the Qinling Mountains.
China aims to basically complete the construction of a high-speed railway network with a total operating length of more than 40,000 km by the end of 2015.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

George08 said:


> XI'AN - Construction work started Saturday on a major high-speed railway in China's western hinterland to promote local economic cooperation and development.
> The 643-km-long railway line for passenger transport links Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province to Chengdu, capital of the southwestern province of Sichuan.


Which means that Chengdu-Zhengzhou would be 1100 km.


George08 said:


> The project will be completed in five years with an investment of more than 40 billion yuan (about 6.35 billion US dollars). The travel time between the two cities will be shortened to three hours from 12 hours currently, after the new railway is put into operation.


Completed thus in late 2017.
Under 5 hours Zhengzhou-Chengdu.


George08 said:


> China aims to basically complete the construction of a high-speed railway network with a total operating length of more than 40,000 km by the end of 2015.


Except that this line shall not be completed by the end of 2015, so that is another network....


----------



## FM 2258

foxmulder said:


> Dude, I think you are not aware of the investment China doing on air travel. 2 out of 3 airports currently under construction on the world is in China and passenger aircraft development is a priority project as rail development for the government. There is no way a situation can arise where airlines "are not allowed to compete".
> 
> 
> I still choose the high speed rail in any case


It looks like China is upgrading every aspect of transportation in their country. I think this is a very good way to go and ultimately allows more people to travel the country much more efficiently.


----------



## Galactic

George08 said:


> XI'AN - Construction work started Saturday on a major high-speed railway in China's western hinterland to promote local economic cooperation and development.
> The 643-km-long railway line for passenger transport links Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province to Chengdu, capital of the southwestern province of Sichuan.
> The project will be completed in five years with an investment of more than 40 billion yuan (about 6.35 billion US dollars). The travel time between the two cities will be shortened to three hours from 12 hours currently, after the new railway is put into operation.
> The line will have 127 km of tunnels to pass through the Qinling Mountains.
> China aims to basically complete the construction of a high-speed railway network with a total operating length of more than 40,000 km by the end of 2015.


Earlier it was reported that the construction of a Xi'an–Chengdu high speed railway would begin by the end of 2010: Work begins on high speed line through Qinling mountains.
As Xi'an–Chengdu is no Shanghai–Nanjing, I assume these are the same line. Was the construction start delayed by two years, or does this more recent article actually refer the start of tracklaying? Also, the length of the line was quoted as 511 km. Is 643 km perhaps the distance along the current line?


----------



## Sunfuns

foxmulder said:


> Dude, I think you are not aware of the investment China doing on air travel. 2 out of 3 airports currently under construction on the world is in China and passenger aircraft development is a priority project as rail development for the government. There is no way a situation can arise where airlines "are not allowed to compete".


How many airports are constructed is not the point here at all. The question is will low cost budget airlines arise and be allowed to fly on the route like this. If yes then they ought to dominate this particular market segment. 

And before anyone mentions it, I'm aware that train also has intermediate stations but in this case we are comparing point to point traffic only.


----------



## Restless

Sunfuns said:


> How many airports are constructed is not the point here at all. The question is will low cost budget airlines arise and be allowed to fly on the route like this. If yes then they ought to dominate this particular market segment.
> 
> And before anyone mentions it, I'm aware that train also has intermediate stations but in this case we are comparing point to point traffic only.


In China, landing charges and taxes are pretty high, so low-cost airlines can't really offer dirt cheap fares like here in Europe.

And I don't see that changing given that building new airports is expensive, and they have to make a profit.


----------



## Restless

Wuhan-XiAn is kind of similar to London-Newcastle in terms of travel time for planes (1h30min) and trains (3h-4h).

There are about 10 flights per day, but most people take the 225km/h trains because it works out better in terms of cost, total travel time and comfort.
Even Ryanair don't bother with that route, and they're even more penny-pinching and cheap than Southwest.

Here's some of the overall analysis

CAAC Director Li Jiaxiang stated some 50% of flights less than 500 km in length could become unprofitable as a result of competition from high-speed trains and around 20% of flights of between 800 and 1000 km could also run at a loss for the same reason. But sectors above 1500 km are not likely to be threatened, he added.

http://centreforaviation.com/analys...billions-in-losses-from-high-speed-rail-50007

So the planes will get redeployed to new routes.


----------



## foxmulder

Sunfuns said:


> How many airports are constructed is not the point here at all. The question is will low cost budget airlines arise and be allowed to fly on the route like this. If yes then they ought to dominate this particular market segment.


??

*It is absolutely the POINT.* You are questioning the *intend *of the government so the investment done by the government on airports and airplanes debugs your prejudice.


----------



## urbanfan89

A factor which doesn't exist in the west is that in China, the state has explicitly designated aviation as a strategic sector to be dominated by state-owned airlines. Which means the state will use various means to ensure that low cost airlines in China will exist, but not be able to challenge the dominance of their own players. So for the foreseeable there will be no counterparts to RyanAir or Southwest which drove the legacy airlines to bankruptcy.


----------



## Pansori

urbanfan89 said:


> A factor which doesn't exist in the west is that in China, the state has explicitly designated aviation as a strategic sector to be dominated by state-owned airlines. Which means the state will use various means to ensure that low cost airlines in China will exist, but not be able to challenge the dominance of their own players. So for the foreseeable there will be no counterparts to RyanAir or Southwest which drove the legacy airlines to bankruptcy.


Aren't air tickets for domestic flights in China cheap anyway? How much a Beijing-Shanghai or Shenzhen-Shanghai return flight would cost booking a couple of weeks in advance?


----------



## Sunfuns

foxmulder said:


> ??
> 
> *It is absolutely the POINT.* You are questioning the *intend *of the government so the investment done by the government on airports and airplanes debugs your prejudice.


The only way I can interpret this answer is that your command of English was insufficient to fully understand my post...


----------



## Sunfuns

urbanfan89 said:


> A factor which doesn't exist in the west is that in China, the state has explicitly designated aviation as a strategic sector to be dominated by state-owned airlines. Which means the state will use various means to ensure that low cost airlines in China will exist, but not be able to challenge the dominance of their own players. So for the foreseeable there will be no counterparts to RyanAir or Southwest which drove the legacy airlines to bankruptcy.


This, on the other hand, is much more to the point and I agree that this is the most likely near future scenario.


----------



## foxmulder

Sunfuns said:


> The only way I can interpret this answer is that your command of English was insufficient to fully understand my post...


 Please enlighten me, professor. :lol:

You said government may not let airlines to compete with high speed trains in your first post.

Then you slightly modified your post with low cost airlines instead of the whole sector.

Now you are implying government wont let low cost airlines to form to compete with his own airlines.

How convenient! 

Oh keep in mind government backed airlines especially in China ought to out-compete private, completely profit driven airlines  If there is anyone who can compete with high speed rail in China it is government backed airlines...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> In China, landing charges and taxes are pretty high, so low-cost airlines can't really offer dirt cheap fares like here in Europe.
> 
> And I don't see that changing given that building new airports is expensive, and they have to make a profit.


What shall the expensive new airports do - keep landing charges high and stay empty and make losses, or fill the airport with low cost planes at low landing charges and also make losses?

Also, just because space is built on ground does not mean there shall be space in heaven.

How long, actually, is the Guangzhou-Zhengzhou high speed railway? What I found is 1442 km Guangzhou South-Zhengzhou East and 1545 km Shenzhen North-Zhengzhou East... is high speed rail competitive with air on distances of 1442 km (Guangzhou-Zhengzhou) or 1487 km (Beijing-Shanghai-Hangzhou)?


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> What shall the expensive new airports do - keep landing charges high and stay empty and make losses, or fill the airport with low cost planes at low landing charges and also make losses?
> 
> Also, just because space is built on ground does not mean there shall be space in heaven.
> 
> How long, actually, is the Guangzhou-Zhengzhou high speed railway? What I found is 1442 km Guangzhou South-Zhengzhou East and 1545 km Shenzhen North-Zhengzhou East... is high speed rail competitive with air on distances of 1442 km (Guangzhou-Zhengzhou) or 1487 km (Beijing-Shanghai-Hangzhou)?


The expensive new airports will keep charges high, because they know passenger numbers will still grow at 10%+ every year, and the airport will need to build a new terminal before long.

The upper limit of time competitiveness between 350km/h rail is normally around 800km-1000km, so it is faster to get a plane for a 1500km journey.
But on a 1500km journey, you have space to use a laptop effectively for 4hours whilst it is wasted time on a cramped airplane. And how much is that time worth?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> The upper limit of time competitiveness between 350km/h rail is normally around 800km-1000km, so it is faster to get a plane for a 1500km journey.
> But on a 1500km journey, you have space to use a laptop effectively for 4hours whilst it is wasted time on a cramped airplane.


So, how competitive has 4:48 for the 1318 km Beijing-Shanghai been?

By comparison, although Beijing-Hangzhou and Guangzhou-Zhengzhou are both under 1500 km, both take over 6 hours. So how popular have they been, in actual practice?


----------



## Ozymandias76

Restless said:


> The expensive new airports will keep charges high, because they know passenger numbers will still grow at 10%+ every year, and the airport will need to build a new terminal before long.
> 
> The upper limit of time competitiveness between 350km/h rail is normally around 800km-1000km, so it is faster to get a plane for a 1500km journey.
> But on a 1500km journey, you have space to use a laptop effectively for 4hours whilst it is wasted time on a cramped airplane. And how much is that time worth?


I really enjoyed this kind of analysis!


----------



## urbanfan89

Pansori said:


> Aren't air tickets for domestic flights in China cheap anyway? How much a Beijing-Shanghai or Shenzhen-Shanghai return flight would cost booking a couple of weeks in advance?


The state clearly fears private low-cost carriers enough to prevent their explosive growth that is taking place elsewhere in Asia.


----------



## laojang

idoke said:


> My family and I just went to Hangzhou (from Beijing) and back from Shanghai.
> I wanted to take the train, but it costs the same as flight, and takes 6 hours to Hangzhou (vs 1:45 in plane) and 5 hours from Shanghai (vs 2 hours by plane).
> 
> Also, we bought the air-tickets via the internet and they were delivered to our home. If we choose the train, we had to go to the train station to buy them!
> 
> I can't see why anyone would choose the train over a flight. Apparently some do, but the huge investments in high-speed-rails ain't worth the money. China should have spent the money building more local trains.
> 
> Same is true for Beijing-Tianjin train - it might save 15-10 minutes vs normal train, but is it really worth the huge investment?
> We took the train 2 years ago. It took us 25 min to arrive to Beijing and then almost 2 hours to get home from Beijing station!
> So I can't say that the HSR saved us much time.


The main reason one can get such a cheap air ticket is the opening of the HSR. Even so, in high season it is doubtful one can get it with this price. 
Plus many cities in between do not have convenient air service. For example
Jinan, the airport is quite far away from the city. 
One also has to take into account the waiting time and traveling time between airports and 
destination, which is longer than that from train station in general. 
It is doubtful that flying between Beijing to Jinan takes less time than 
taking the G train for most people. One can not say that flying from BJ to SH only takes 
2 hours. Usually, the 2 hour schedule is gate to gate for the plane in the best case. One 
has to board and deboard the plan, taxi the plane, etc.
Building new lines 
free up the old line too. If one builds a new line why not go with the best 
technology?

Laojang


----------



## Sopomon

FM 2258 said:


> I know but it was mentioned that some people from Hong Kong choose to fly out of SZX instead of HKG for cheaper flights. I wonder how people from Hong Kong get to SZX right now the fastest.



In reality, it's very small amount of people that do, most prefer the convenience of HKIA


----------



## Silly_Walks

idoke said:


> Same is true for Beijing-Tianjin train - it might save 15-10 minutes vs normal train, but is it really worth the huge investment?
> We took the train 2 years ago. It took us 25 min to arrive to Beijing and then almost 2 hours to get home from Beijing station!
> So I can't say that the HSR saved us much time.


Ah yes, so because it wasn't convenient for you, means it isn't convenient for anyone else.

"I don't like tea, so tea is useless for everybody".


----------



## Restless

idoke said:


> My family and I just went to Hangzhou (from Beijing) and back from Shanghai.
> I wanted to take the train, but it costs the same as flight, and takes 6 hours to Hangzhou (vs 1:45 in plane) and 5 hours from Shanghai (vs 2 hours by plane).
> 
> Also, we bought the air-tickets via the internet and they were delivered to our home. If we choose the train, we had to go to the train station to buy them!
> 
> I can't see why anyone would choose the train over a flight. Apparently some do, but the huge investments in high-speed-rails ain't worth the money. China should have spent the money building more local trains.
> 
> Same is true for Beijing-Tianjin train - it might save 15-10 minutes vs normal train, but is it really worth the huge investment?
> We took the train 2 years ago. It took us 25 min to arrive to Beijing and then almost 2 hours to get home from Beijing station!
> So I can't say that the HSR saved us much time.


Beijing-Tianjin was originally planned as a slower 250km/h railway. But then the Olympics entered the picture, and it was upgraded to 330km/h as a technology demonstrator and showcase.

And I've seen an estimate that the cost difference is around 30% for 350km/h instead of 200km/h.

So they decided they might as well future-proof the railway and go faster.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

idoke said:


> My family and I just went to Hangzhou (from Beijing) and back from Shanghai.
> I wanted to take the train, but it costs the same as flight, and takes 6 hours to Hangzhou (vs 1:45 in plane) and 5 hours from Shanghai (vs 2 hours by plane).
> 
> Also, we bought the air-tickets via the internet and they were delivered to our home. If we choose the train, we had to go to the train station to buy them!
> 
> I can't see why anyone would choose the train over a flight. Apparently some do, but the huge investments in high-speed-rails ain't worth the money. China should have spent the money building more local trains.
> 
> Same is true for Beijing-Tianjin train - it might save 15-10 minutes vs normal train, but is it really worth the huge investment?
> We took the train 2 years ago. It took us 25 min to arrive to Beijing and then almost 2 hours to get home from Beijing station!
> So I can't say that the HSR saved us much time.


No, there is an online ticketing system--you're just not familiar with the system, that's all; tickets for the opening of Beijing-Shanghai HSR sold out within an hour. 

I'll tell you why high speed rail in China makes every bit of sense. China has 1.6 billion people, and will likely continue to grow. And most of them (over 90%) will travel once every year (New Year). That's moving over one billion people in less than a month. 1,000,000,000 divided by 30 days = 33 million per day. That means the system has to move more than *one million people per hour, non-stop.* There is no way air service can keep up with that kind of demand; a plane holds a maximum a little over 400 people, and is limited by weather. (Did we forget that New Year is in the middle of winter, when weather screws everything up?) On the contrary, a 16-car train can carry more than 1600, taking even more if standing tickets are sold; the best part is that unlike airplanes, trains don't really care that much about weather. 




idoke said:


> Also, one needs to remember that the HSR are subsidized, so the actual cost of a train trip is more expensive than flight.


Oh, so we're going to complain about subsidization are we? Please tell me how airports pop out of the ground for free. [sarcastic:wonka]


----------



## damndynamite

Going back to page 223 of this thread.

"Lanzhou-Xinjiang (兰新线) 2nd rail:
Length: 1,776 km, 31 stations
Total cost: 14.35 billion yuan
Speed: 200km/h (designed max 350km/h)
Construction: 11/4/2009 ~ 2014"

I thought the Xinjiang high speed rail would cost over $20 billion? How is it possibly so cheap? 

Also I imagine a railway capable of 350km/h is a lot more expensive than a 200km/h railway so it seems like a really bad decision to construct a true high speed railway across this desolate part of the country. 

I can understand if there needs to be a 2nd rail line so that space for freight is cleared on the first line but why in the world would they build a much more expensive 2nd high speed rail line?


----------



## skyridgeline

damndynamite said:


> Going back to page 223 of this thread.
> 
> "Lanzhou-Xinjiang (兰新线) 2nd rail:
> Length: 1,776 km, 31 stations
> Total cost: 14.35 [~*143.50*] billion yuan
> Speed: 200km/h (designed max 350km/h)
> Construction: 11/4/2009 ~ 2014"
> 
> I thought the Xinjiang high speed rail would cost over $20 billion? How is it possibly so cheap?
> 
> Also I imagine a railway capable of 350km/h is a lot more expensive than a 200km/h railway so it seems like a really bad decision to construct a true high speed railway across this desolate part of the country.
> 
> I can understand if there needs to be a 2nd rail line so that space for freight is cleared on the first line but why in the world would they build a much* more expensive 2nd high speed rail line*?


:lol:

1, build it while it's still "cheap"
2, tourism
3, symbolic


----------



## Galactic

Out of curiosity I compiled a list of highest scheduled average speeds on the Chinese HSR lines. Perhaps someone is interested in it. Schedules are from Chinatrainguide.com, line lengths are mostly from Wikipedia as I believe the ones mentioned with the schedule are distances along the older lines.



Code:


Route                  Length Fastest train Time Min Average speed
Beijing S–Shanghai H   1303   G1            4:48 288 271
Hefei–Bengbu S         131    G273          0:45 45  175
Zhengzhou E–Wuhan      474    G824          1:59 119 239
Wuhan–Guangzhou S      969    G1001         3:41 221 263
Guangzhou S–Shenzhen N 102    G1005         0:29 29  211
Ningbo E–Wenzhou S     268    D5571         1:35 95  169
Wenzhou S–Fuzhou S     298    D3105         1:52 112 160
Fuzhou S–Xiamen N      226    D6271         1:23 83  163

Qingdao–Jinan E        364    D6020         2:25 145 151
Shijiazhuang N–Taiyuan 190    D2003         1:18 78  146
Zhengzhou–Xi'an N      455    G844          2:03 123 222
Nanjing S–Hefei        166    D3018         1:02 62  161
Hefei–Wuhan            351    D3018         2:22 142 148
Hankou–Yichang E       293    D5821         1:45 105 167
Yichang E–Lichuan      275    T6716         2:54 174 95
Suining–Chengdu        148    D5111         0:55 55  161
Shanghai H–Hangzhou    164    G61           0:49 49  201

Beidaihe–Shenyang N    404    D25           2:41 161 151
Xiamen N–Longyan       156    D6415         1:08 68  138

Beijing S–Tianjin      115    C2001         0:33 33  209
Chengdu-Dujiangyan     65     D6161         0:28 28  139
Shanghai–Nanjing       301    G7016         1:19 79  229
Nanchang–Jiujiang      131    D6346         0:58 58  136
Haikou E–Sanya         284    D7309         1:34 94  181
Changchun–Jilin        111    D5011         0:42 42  159
Guangzhou S–Zhuhai N   93     D7601         0:48 48  116


----------



## China Hand

idoke said:


> I can't see why anyone would choose the train over a flight. Apparently some do, but the huge investments in high-speed-rails ain't worth the money. China should have spent the money building more local trains.
> 
> Same is true for Beijing-Tianjin train - it might save 15-10 minutes vs normal train, but is it really worth the huge investment?
> We took the train 2 years ago. It took us 25 min to arrive to Beijing and then almost 2 hours to get home from Beijing station!
> So I can't say that the HSR saved us much time.


If one lives along the Xi'an-ZhengZhou-Xuzhou-Wuhan-Guangzhou line but not near a major air hub, the CRH makes much more sense. From my home I need to spend 1 to 5 hours getting to the airport, then 2.5 hours to get to my destination, then another 1.5 hours to get to Guangzhou South or Shenzhen. That's 5 to 9 hours and if there is any delay add 1, 2 or 3 hours of sitting on the tarmac in an aluminium tube.

The closer airport is ¥4000 r/t anywhere in country, the one 5 hours away is ¥2000 r/t anywhere, but I spent 5 hours on a bus. If I travel the discount fare only with restricted times I can fly for 1100 r/t.

The price is then a bit more for CRH.

However the deal breaker for me is that CRH has affordable first class with large seats, wide seats, and enormous seat pitch so I may stretch out my nearly 2 metre frame. This added space more than justifies the additional time and possible additional expense compared to discount Ctrip fares.

I would rather spend an additional few hours sitting comfortably, napping, reading, eating and watching the scenery flash by than get there in less time with my knees jammed into my leg and the seat-back in front of me.

Business and First Class airfare just does not make sense and I do not accrue enough frequent flyer miles to justify the expense.


----------



## China Hand

Pansori said:


> I have asked this question but so far noone has answered. The reason I was asking about ticket prices for flights was because I've heard flights may, in fact, be very cheap and be in line with low cost carriers like AirAsia in the nearby SE Asian countries. And, of course they are competitive with CRH rail services (i.e. literally may be similar).


To answer your question, there are occasionally flights that are ¥310 one way plus 190 in taxes and fees, to/from most major cities in the eastern third of China. This is competitive with CRH travel, provided no delays occur and your departure and arrival airports do not add too much time to your trip compared to the CRH.

Search Ctrip for such fares using any city combination.


----------



## China Hand

Restless said:


> The upper limit of time competitiveness between 350km/h rail is normally around 800km-1000km, so it is faster to get a plane for a 1500km journey.
> But on a 1500km journey, you have space to use a laptop effectively for 4hours whilst it is wasted time on a cramped airplane. And how much is that time worth?


That is up to each rider. If your hourly rate times the hours lost on the train is more than the price differential, then take the plane.

Ex.:

Airfare is 1800 and takes 5 hours total.
CRH is 1000 and take 9 hours total.
You earn 250 per hour. Add (9-5) X 250 = 1000 to train trip.
Now the train trip 'costs' you 2000 in lost wages and tickets.
This is larger than 1800, so you fly.
Unless you value an intangible, such as leg room, bigger seats, or you are afraid to fly.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> Airfare is 1800 and takes 5 hours total.
> CRH is 1000 and take 9 hours total.
> You earn 250 per hour. Add (9-5) X 250 = 1000 to train trip.
> Now the train trip 'costs' you 2000 in lost wages and tickets.
> This is larger than 1800, so you fly.
> Unless you value an intangible, such as leg room, bigger seats, or you are afraid to fly.


And even if it is intangible, it may or may not be available for a definite price.

E. g. the airfare is 1800 but that is in economy class. The CRH seats are bigger and have more legroom - in fact as much as the business class seats on the plane. But the business class tickets on the plane cost not 1800 but 3600. Since the CRH tickets are 2000 including the lost time, you are better off on CRH.


----------



## Silly_Walks

China Hand said:


> That is up to each rider. If your hourly rate times the hours lost on the train is more than the price differential, then take the plane.
> 
> Ex.:
> 
> Airfare is 1800 and takes 5 hours total.
> CRH is 1000 and take 9 hours total.
> You earn 250 per hour. Add (9-5) X 250 = 1000 to train trip.
> Now the train trip 'costs' you 2000 in lost wages and tickets.
> This is larger than 1800, so you fly.
> Unless you value an intangible, such as leg room, bigger seats, or you are afraid to fly.


Unless you can keep working on the train, but not on the plane, in which case the train only costs you the preliminary travel time to/from the station and boarding, which is almost always less than the total waste of time during airplane travel.


----------



## Restless

China Hand said:


> That is up to each rider. If your hourly rate times the hours lost on the train is more than the price differential, then take the plane.
> 
> Ex.:
> 
> Airfare is 1800 and takes 5 hours total.
> CRH is 1000 and take 9 hours total.
> You earn 250 per hour. Add (9-5) X 250 = 1000 to train trip.
> Now the train trip 'costs' you 2000 in lost wages and tickets.
> This is larger than 1800, so you fly.
> Unless you value an intangible, such as leg room, bigger seats, or you are afraid to fly.


I meant that on a train, you have to take into account wages earned, and most of the time on a train is productive time.

*Air*
Total Travel Time = 5 hours
Ticket Cost: 1800RMB
Working Time = 0 hours on train + 4hours on the ground
Income Earned = 4 hours x 250RMB = 1000RMB

*Train*
Total Travel Time = 9hours
Ticket Cost = 1000RMB
Working Time = say 6 hours of that 9 hour trip
Income Earned = 6hours x 250RMB = 1500RMB

So you have less working time taking a plane, and it costs more.


----------



## China Hand

damndynamite said:


> I can understand if there needs to be a 2nd rail line so that space for freight is cleared on the first line but why in the world would they build a much more expensive 2nd high speed rail line?
> 
> 
> skyridgeline said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1, build it while it's still "cheap"
> 2, tourism
> 3, symbolic
Click to expand...

The 'cheap' part is non-trivial. China currently has a massive labour arbitrage advantage that is ramping up to 21st C. technical and skill levels. Right now, this labour pool is cheap but it won't stay that way for much longer. 

Building these CRH lines now, in fact over building them, is the wise decision.

In the USA lines laid in the early-mid 1800's (with a labour pool that was remarkable close to the current Chinese one in cost, and sometimes ethnic makeup) were torn up in the late 20th. C. and the rail bed converted to walkways and parkland and bike paths.

To rebuild those lines today would cost astronomical sums of money, so much that it's is effectively impossible to do it.

So once you lay cheap rail or infrastructure and then rip it up, it's gone for good.


----------



## Restless

China Hand said:


> The 'cheap' part is non-trivial. China currently has a massive labour arbitrage advantage that is ramping up to 21st C. technical and skill levels. Right now, this labour pool is cheap but it won't stay that way for much longer.
> 
> Building these CRH lines now, in fact over building them, is the wise decision.
> 
> In the USA lines laid in the early-mid 1800's (with a labour pool that was remarkable close to the current Chinese one in cost, and sometimes ethnic makeup) were torn up in the late 20th. C. and the rail bed converted to walkways and parkland and bike paths.
> 
> To rebuild those lines today would cost astronomical sums of money, so much that it's is effectively impossible to do it.
> 
> So once you lay cheap rail or infrastructure and then rip it up, it's gone for good.


For capital-intensive railway construction, labour costs are not as important as land acquisition costs. Land becomes really expensive once people become wealthy.

In densely populated Japan and the UK, land costs are horrendous for new railway projects.


----------



## dodge321

Galactic said:


> Out of curiosity I compiled a list of highest scheduled average speeds on the Chinese HSR lines. Perhaps someone is interested in it. Schedules are from Chinatrainguide.com, line lengths are mostly from Wikipedia as I believe the ones mentioned with the schedule are distances along the older lines.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Route                  Length Fastest train Time Min Average speed
> Beijing S–Shanghai H   1303   G1            4:48 288 271
> Hefei–Bengbu S         131    G273          0:45 45  175
> Zhengzhou E–Wuhan      474    G824          1:59 119 239
> Wuhan–Guangzhou S      969    G1001         3:41 221 263
> Guangzhou S–Shenzhen N 102    G1005         0:29 29  211
> Ningbo E–Wenzhou S     268    D5571         1:35 95  169
> Wenzhou S–Fuzhou S     298    D3105         1:52 112 160
> Fuzhou S–Xiamen N      226    D6271         1:23 83  163
> 
> Qingdao–Jinan E        364    D6020         2:25 145 151
> Shijiazhuang N–Taiyuan 190    D2003         1:18 78  146
> Zhengzhou–Xi'an N      455    G844          2:03 123 222
> Nanjing S–Hefei        166    D3018         1:02 62  161
> Hefei–Wuhan            351    D3018         2:22 142 148
> Hankou–Yichang E       293    D5821         1:45 105 167
> Yichang E–Lichuan      275    T6716         2:54 174 95
> Suining–Chengdu        148    D5111         0:55 55  161
> Shanghai H–Hangzhou    164    G61           0:49 49  201
> 
> Beidaihe–Shenyang N    404    D25           2:41 161 151
> Xiamen N–Longyan       156    D6415         1:08 68  138
> 
> Beijing S–Tianjin      115    C2001         0:33 33  209
> Chengdu-Dujiangyan     65     D6161         0:28 28  139
> Shanghai–Nanjing       301    G7016         1:19 79  229
> Nanchang–Jiujiang      131    D6346         0:58 58  136
> Haikou E–Sanya         284    D7309         1:34 94  181
> Changchun–Jilin        111    D5011         0:42 42  159
> Guangzhou S–Zhuhai N   93     D7601         0:48 48  116


Great!


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> For capital-intensive railway construction, labour costs are not as important as land acquisition costs. Land becomes really expensive once people become wealthy.
> 
> In densely populated Japan and the UK, land costs are horrendous for new railway projects.


But unlike Ukogbani, Japan systematically does build new railways:
Tokaido Shinkansen, broke ground 1959, opened 1964
Sanyo Shinkansen Osaka-Okayama, started 1967, opened 1972
Sanyo Shinkansen Okayama-Osaka, broke ground 1970, opened 1975
Tohoku Shinkansen Omiya-Morioka, broke ground 1971, opened 1982
Joetsu Shinkansen, broke ground 1971, opened 1982
Tohoku Shinkansen Ueno-Omiya, broke ground ????, opened 1985
Tohoku Shinkansen Tokyo-Ueno, ????, opened 1991
Nagano Shinkansen, ????, opened 1997
Tohoku Shinkansen Morioka-Hachinohe, ????, opened 2002
Kyushu Shinkansen Kagoshima-Yatsushiro, broke ground 1991, opened 2004
Tohoku Shinkansen Hachinohe-Aomori, ????, opened 2010
Kyushu Shinkansen Hakata-Yatsushiro, ????, opened 2011

Hokuriku Shinkansen Nagano-Kanazawa, broke ground 1993, opened 2015
Hokkaido Shinkansen Aomori-Hakkodate, broke ground 2005, opened 2015
Hokuriku Shinkansen Kanazawa-Tsuruga, broke ground 2012, opened 2025
Chuo Shinkansen Shinagawa-Nagoya, ??? (before 1997), opened 2027

So... any financial comparisons? How have the costs of labour and land changed from the construction of Tokaido Shinkansen back 1959-1964 till the now ongoing works like Hokkaido Shinkansen?


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> But unlike Ukogbani, Japan systematically does build new railways:
> Tokaido Shinkansen, broke ground 1959, opened 1964
> Sanyo Shinkansen Osaka-Okayama, started 1967, opened 1972
> Sanyo Shinkansen Okayama-Osaka, broke ground 1970, opened 1975
> Tohoku Shinkansen Omiya-Morioka, broke ground 1971, opened 1982
> Joetsu Shinkansen, broke ground 1971, opened 1982
> Tohoku Shinkansen Ueno-Omiya, broke ground ????, opened 1985
> Tohoku Shinkansen Tokyo-Ueno, ????, opened 1991
> Nagano Shinkansen, ????, opened 1997
> Tohoku Shinkansen Morioka-Hachinohe, ????, opened 2002
> Kyushu Shinkansen Kagoshima-Yatsushiro, broke ground 1991, opened 2004
> Tohoku Shinkansen Hachinohe-Aomori, ????, opened 2010
> Kyushu Shinkansen Hakata-Yatsushiro, ????, opened 2011
> 
> Hokuriku Shinkansen Nagano-Kanazawa, broke ground 1993, opened 2015
> Hokkaido Shinkansen Aomori-Hakkodate, broke ground 2005, opened 2015
> Hokuriku Shinkansen Kanazawa-Tsuruga, broke ground 2012, opened 2025
> Chuo Shinkansen Shinagawa-Nagoya, ??? (before 1997), opened 2027
> 
> So... any financial comparisons? How have the costs of labour and land changed from the construction of Tokaido Shinkansen back 1959-1964 till the now ongoing works like Hokkaido Shinkansen?


I don't have Japanese stats, but I've seen the estimates for land acquisition in the UK which account for most of the cost for the entire project, not just labour costs. I also recall seeing a couple of analyses of Chinese railway projects, and thinking that there has been a large increase in land-related costs over the past 10years.

And note that in Japan, there was a definite slowdown in the length of Shinkansen railway construction in the past 20years. And that the newer projects have been loss-making, because costs were high and ridership low.


----------



## :jax:

The question what state the infrastructure will be 20 years from now, and if/how it will be used. China runs a considerable risk by its forced construction (with little room to learn from errors). The upside as mentioned is land cost/value by having the tracks laid down first, and people arriving later. 

In Europe the land value of the railway station can exceed the transport value of the trains, so that they can reconstruct/sell/rent the area at profit. Something similar might happen in China.


----------



## China Hand

:jax: said:


> The question what state the infrastructure will be 20 years from now, and if/how it will be used. China runs a considerable risk by its forced construction (with little room to learn from errors). The upside as mentioned is land cost/value by having the tracks laid down first, and people arriving later.
> 
> In Europe the land value of the railway station can exceed the transport value of the trains, so that they can reconstruct/sell/rent the area at profit. Something similar might happen in China.


The benefit with all of the pylons, bridges, causeways and elevated track is that if the rush of construction results in errors in 20 years, it is a simple matter to build a parallel pylon set and adjust the track ever so slightly. This cuts down on land acquisition costs, which go hand in hand with rising wages, as well.

By then they will be 500 kph.


----------



## gramercy

considering the trunk lines are already designed for 350-380 kph, i think the next step will simply be maglev, probably in a subterranian low pressure tube


----------



## Silver Swordsman

If China wants to max out its rail network, it would go in these general directions:

1) Construct brand new PDLs that connect every city in China to the network. 
2) Cancel all passenger services (or heavily reduce) on original railways.
3) Transform all original railways to pure freight lines, and upgrade capacity and efficiency to that of USA's freight system.
4) Construct maglev lines between the largest city hubs. 
5) Construct maglev lines on the same scale it has done today as a first-class service. 300-380 kph service is the norm for poor/working class citizens, with 500-600 kph for middle and higher class. (Highly unlikely).


----------



## foxmulder

gramercy said:


> c... maglev, probably in a subterranian low pressure tube


will come one day


----------



## phoenixboi08

Restless said:


> For capital-intensive railway construction, labour costs are not as important as land acquisition costs. Land becomes really expensive once people become wealthy.
> 
> In densely populated Japan and the UK, land costs are horrendous for new railway projects.


Exactly!


----------



## skyridgeline

:jax: said:


> The question what state the infrastructure will be 20 years from now, and if/how it will be used. China runs a considerable risk by its forced construction (with little room to learn from errors). The upside as mentioned is land cost/value by having the tracks laid down first, and people arriving later.
> 
> In Europe the land value of the railway station can exceed the transport value of the trains, so that they can reconstruct/sell/rent the area at profit. Something similar might happen in China.


Errors can be learned a lot quicker than one would think :gossip:. 

Vehicle ownerships in Europe is about 10x that of China per capita wise at the moment.

High "land" prices are usually artificially created. 

In China, they will likely build new districts and cities/prefab "skycities" if profits can be made by somebody because China is not nearly as "established".


----------



## Restless

When we're talking about learning, remember that the Beijing-Tianjin railway constructed for the olympics, and by all accounts, was done to world-class standards in every respect.
So it served as the testbed and reference point for most of the construction and technology standards for the rest of the HSR network.

Without this line, there was no way that they would have undertaken the mass simultaneous construction of the subsequent network.
What it didn't do was serve as a operational example for long-distance train running, because it was only 120km long.

===

Land prices are normally a function of the population density and how wealthy people are.
Eg. Sparsely populated places have lots of cheap land, and poor people can't pay high prices.

===

Currently, freight rail costs in China are almost as cheap as in the USA.
When more of the passenger trains are taken off the old network, freight capacity will increase and costs could go even lower.


----------



## maldini

China Hand said:


> The benefit with all of the pylons, bridges, causeways and elevated track is that if the rush of construction results in errors in 20 years, it is a simple matter to build a parallel pylon set and adjust the track ever so slightly. This cuts down on land acquisition costs, which go hand in hand with rising wages, as well.
> 
> By then they will be 500 kph.


With the current occupancy rate at 70%+, the highspeed railway is not "forced" at all, but is necessary.


----------



## damndynamite

Still can't figure out why the Urumqi-Lanzhou line is 350km/h. Is it possible that the construction cost of a line at that speed is $10 billion dollars greater than the line running at normal speeds?


----------



## skyridgeline

damndynamite said:


> Still can't figure out why the Urumqi-Lanzhou line is 350km/h. Is it possible that the construction cost of a line at that speed is $10 billion dollars greater than the line running at normal speeds?


1- I think the "slow" train service won't meet future demands
2- the tourism industry will be huge in China

Even if only some of the attractions are within reasonable distances from the ~ 30 train stations, the list below is impressive.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_areas_of_China


*National Nature Reserves of China*


Gansu 
Baishuijiang National Nature Reserve 
Xinglongshan National Nature Reserve 
Qilianshan National Nature Reserve 
Anxi Extreme-arid Desert National Nature Reserve, Guazhou 
Gahai-Zecha National Nature Reserve 
Minqin Liangucheng National Nature Reserve 
Lianhuashan National Nature Reserve 
Dunhuang Xihu National Nature Reserve 
Taitong - Kongtongshan National Nature Reserve 
Liancheng National Nature Reserve 
Xiaolongshan National Nature Reserve 
Yanchiwan National Nature Reserve 
Annanba Wild Bactrian Camel National Nature Reserve [Camelus ferus] 
Taohe National Nature Reserve 
Dunhuang Yangguan National Nature Reserve 
Zhangye Heihe Wetland National Nature Reserve 
Taizishan National Nature Reserve 


Qinghai 
Longbao National Nature Reserve 
Qinghaihu National Nature Reserve 
Hoh Xil National Nature Reserve 
Xunhua Mengda National Nature Reserve 
Sanjiangyuan National Nature Reserve 

Xinjiang 
Altun Shan National Nature Reserve 
Hanas National Nature Reserve 
Bayanbulak National Nature Reserve 
Xitianshan National Nature Reserve 
Ganjiahu Saxaul Forest National Nature Reserve 
Tomur Feng National Nature Reserve 
Lop Nur Wild Bactrian Camel National Nature Reserve 
Tarim Euphrates Poplar National Nature Reserve [Populus euphratica] 
Ebi Hu Wetland National Nature Reserve 



*National Parks of China*

Gansu 
Maijishan National Park 
Kongtongshan National Park 
Mingshashan - Yueyaquan National Park 

Qinghai 
Qinghaihu National Park 

Xinjiang 
Tianshan Tianchi National Park 
Kumtag Shamo National Park 
Bosten Hu National Park 
Sayram Hu National Park 


*National Geoparks of China*

Gansu 
Dunhuang Yardang National Geopark 
Liujiaxia Dinosaur National Geopark 
Pingliang Kongtongshan National Geopark 
Jingtai Huanghe Shilin National Geopark (Huanghe Shilin: "Yellow River Stone Forest") 
Hezheng Paleofossil National Geopark 
Tianshui Maijishan National Geopark 
Zhangye Danxia National Geopark 
Bingling Danxia National Geopark 


Qinghai 
Jainca Kanbula National Geopark 
Jigzhi Nyainbo Yuzê National Geopark 
Golmud Kunlunshan National Geopark 
Huzhu Jiading National Geopark 
Guide National Geopark 
Qinghaihu National Geopark 
Maqên A'nyêmaqên Shan National Geopark 


Xinjiang 
Burqin Kanas Hu National Geopark 
Qitai Petrified Wood-Dinosaur National Geopark 
Fuyun Koktokay National Geopark 
Tianshan Tianchi National Geopark 
Kuqa Grand Canyon National Geopark 
Turpan Huoyanshan National Geopark 
Wensu Salt Dome National Geopark 


*National Mining Parks of China*

Gansu 
Baiyin Huoyanshan National Mining Park 
Jinchang Jinchuan National Mining Park 

Qinghai 
Golmud Qarhan Salt Lake National Mining Park 



*National Forest Parks of China*


Gansu 
Tulugou National Forest Park 
Shifogou National Forest Park 
Songmingyan National Forest Park 
Yunyasi National Forest Park 
Xujiashan National Forest Park 
Guiqingshan National Forest Park 
Maiji National Forest Park 
Jifengshan National Forest Park 
Weiheyuan National Forest Park 
Tianzhu Sanxia National Forest Park 
Yeliguan National Forest Park 
Shatan National Forest Park 
Guan'egou National Forest Park 
Dayu National Forest Park 
Lazikou National Forest Park 
Wenxian Tianchi National Forest Park 
Lianhuashan National Forest Park 
Shoulushan National Forest Park 
Zhouzuling National Forest Park 
Xiaolongshan National Forest Park 
Daxiagou National Forest Park 


Qinghai 
Kanbula National Forest Park 
Beishan National Forest Park 
Datong National Forest Park 
Quja National Forest Park 
Xianmi National Forest Park 
Maixiu National Forest Park 
Halihatu National Forest Park 


Xinjiang 
Zhaobishan National Forest Park 
Tianchi National Forest Park 
Narat National Forest Park 
Künes National Forest Park 
Jiadengyu National Forest Park 
Baihaba National Forest Park 
Tangbula National Forest Park 
Qitai Nanshan National Forest Park 
Kesang Rongdong National Forest Park 
Jinhuyang National Forest Park 
Gongliu Qaxi National Forest Park 
Hami Tianshan National Forest Park 
Hartureg National Forest Park 
Usu Foshan National Forest Park 
Habahe White Birch National Forest Park 
Altai Shan Wenquan National Forest Park 
Xat Gudao National Forest Park 
Taxihe National Forest Park 
Bachu Euphrates Poplar National Forest Park 


*National Wetland Parks of China*

Gansu 
Zhangye National Wetland Park 
Lanzhou Qinwangchuan National Wetland Park 

Qinghai 
Guide Huangheqing National Wetland Park 

Xinjiang 
Sayram Hu National Wetland Park 
Ürümqi Chaiwopuhu National Wetland Park 
Manas National Wetland Park 
Uqirik National Wetland Park 
Altay Kran He National Wetland Park 
Aksu Dolan He National Wetland Park 
Hoboksar National Wetland Park 
Niya National Wetland Park 
Ulungur Hu National Wetland Park 
Larkol National Wetland Park 
Bosten Hu National Wetland Park 


*National Water Parks of China*

Gansu 
Yuanyangchi Water Park, Jinta 
Liangzhou Tiantishan Water Park 
Kongtong Shuiku Scenic Area, Pingliang 
Chijinxia Water Park, Jiuquan 
Dahuwan Scenic Area, Gaotai 
Zhulinsi Shuiku Scenic Area, Zhuanglang 
Tianjiagou Soil and Water Conservation Eco-Scenic Area, Jingchuan 
Yuyuan Water Park 
Guazhouyuan Water Park, Guazhou 
Shuangquanhu Water Park, Linze 
Erbahu Water Park, Zhangye 
Dayekou Shuiku Water Park, Zhangye 
Wanxiahu Water Park, Xihe 
Pingchuan Shuiku Water Park, Linze 
Liqiao Shuiku Water Park, Shandan 
Jinshanhu Water Park, Aksay Kazak Autonomous County 
Bailongjiang Lazikou Water Park, Têwo 
Yeliguan Water Park, Lintan 
Hongyashan Shuiku Water Park, Minqin 
Danghe Fengqingxian Water Park, Dunhuang 

Qinghai 
Nanmenxia Shuiku Scenic Area, Huzhu 
Changlinggou Scenic Area 
Huanghe Zoulang Water Park, Huangnan Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture 
Mengda Tianchi Water Park, Xunhua Salar Autonomous County 
Heiquan Shuiku Water Park 
Beishan Water Park, Huzhu 
Nyainbo Yuzê Water Park, Jigzhi 
Sanchuan Huanghe Water Park, Minhe Hui and Tu Autonomous County 
Huangheyuan Water Park, Madoi 


Xinjiang 
Kizil Shuiku Scenic Area 
Xihaiwan Mingzhu Scenic Area, Bayingolin Mongol Autonomous Prefecture 
Kax He Longkou Water Park, Ili Kazak Autonomous Prefecture 
Uluwat Water Park 
Karez Water Park, Turpan 
Tacheng Kalanggur Water Park 
Shimenzi Shuiku Water Park, Changji Hui Autonomous Prefecture 
Qianquanhu Water Park, Shawan 
Tianshan Tianchi Water Park


----------



## saiho

skyridgeline said:


> 1- I think the "slow" train service won't meet future demands


That can be applied to every corridor in China but IMO not this one. Xinjiang and Gansu are extremely sparse in population by Chinese and even European standards. If "slow" train services can run somewhat properly in busy Chinese corridors in the east pre-HSR, then a "slow" train service in a desert will never be over capacity.


skyridgeline said:


> 2- the tourism industry will be huge in China


Except no country builds an HSR *strictly* for tourism because of its cyclical nature you will never recoup the costs. HSR is all about density, population and economical importance of an area.


----------



## Restless

damndynamite said:


> Still can't figure out why the Urumqi-Lanzhou line is 350km/h. Is it possible that the construction cost of a line at that speed is $10 billion dollars greater than the line running at normal speeds?


From what I can see, Urumqi-Lanzhou is mostly going to be built on flat empty terrain.
So land costs would be virtually the same for a 350km/h line versus a 200km/h one, and they needed to build a new line anyway, because the existing line is over capacity.

But it's still 1700km+ even to Lanzhou, which is not competitive with a plane. And there isn't much in the way of people along the line, so there's not going to be much intermediate traffic.

So that just leaves it as a political decision:
1. to bind Xinjiang province closer to the rest of China
2. to ensure Xinjiang gets a share of the infrastructure spending pie

===
Come to think of it, there's no reason why they couldn't run both 200km/h and 350km/h services on the new railway line, which frees up the existing line for a lot more 80km/h freight trains.

The fixed infrastructure costs about the same for 350km/h or 200km/h, and the variable operating costs are determined by the speed/cost of the trains.


----------



## saiho

Restless said:


> So that just leaves it as a political decision:
> 1. to bind Xinjiang province closer to the rest of China
> 2. to ensure Xinjiang gets a share of the infrastructure spending pie


That's what I was thinking or they are trying to jump-start the silk railroad concept 



Restless said:


> The fixed infrastructure costs about the same for 350km/h or 200km/h, and the variable operating costs are determined by the speed/cost of the trains.


Fixed infrastructure costs are much higher for a 350km/h line than a 200km/h line, even in Gansu where flat land and sparse population will drive down land acquisition costs and allow for easier alignments. Just think about rail and switch quality and design plus the balastless track needed for 350 running.


----------



## laojang

Restless said:


> From what I can see, Urumqi-Lanzhou is mostly going to be built on flat empty terrain.
> So land costs would be virtually the same for a 350km/h line versus a 200km/h one, and they needed to build a new line anyway, because the existing line is over capacity.
> 
> But it's still 1700km+ even to Lanzhou, which is not competitive with a plane. And there isn't much in the way of people along the line, so there's not going to be much intermediate traffic.
> 
> So that just leaves it as a political decision:
> 1. to bind Xinjiang province closer to the rest of China
> 2. to ensure Xinjiang gets a share of the infrastructure spending pie
> 
> ===
> Come to think of it, there's no reason why they couldn't run both 200km/h and 350km/h services on the new railway line, which frees up the existing line for a lot more 80km/h freight trains.
> 
> The fixed infrastructure costs about the same for 350km/h or 200km/h, and the variable operating costs are determined by the speed/cost of the trains.


True the terrain is mostly empty, but it is not very flat, especially from 
Xining to Zhangyie. It has to cross the Qilian mountain. The section from Lanzhou to Xining follows the Huang river and Huang river valley (another one).
It is not flat either. Inside Xinjiang, there are lots of semi-dry ravines too.

Laojang


----------



## foxmulder

If I had the resources, I would have picked the best available technology, too. I think 350km/h is the right choice for Urumqi line especially when you think the distance. 350km/h makes it a relatively short journey whereas a 250km/h line will translate into a whole day one. Also, it may be a part of the humongous China-Europe high speed project. Once Urumqi line is done, China part is done  Moreover, quite fast economical growth around Urumqi due to hydrocarbons will increase the transport needs considerably in future, too.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> Also, it may be a part of the humongous China-Europe high speed project. Once Urumqi line is done, China part is done


No. China still needs a high speed railway Urumqi-Alashankou or Urumqi-Yining-Khorgos.

Are there any plans for high speed railways Urumqi-Alashankou or Urumqi-Khorgos?

Also, what is the speed of Xian-Baoji-Lanzhou high speed line?

As for Xian... when shall Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Xian high speed railway open?

Shall Beijing-Shijiazhuang and Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou high speed railways open together or separately?


----------



## foxmulder

chornedsnorkack said:


> No. China still needs a high speed railway Urumqi-Alashankou or Urumqi-Yining-Khorgos.


Duh..


----------



## Restless

saiho said:


> That's what I was thinking or they are trying to jump-start the silk railroad concept
> 
> 
> 
> Fixed infrastructure costs are much higher for a 350km/h line than a 200km/h line, even in Gansu where flat land and sparse population will drive down land acquisition costs and allow for easier alignments. Just think about rail and switch quality and design plus the balastless track needed for 350 running.


Passenger traffic on the Silk road is a non-starter, so it'll just be for freight.

And I saw that it was only a 30% increase in costs for 350km/h versus 200km/h.

350km/h also has an advantage in that it can accept much higher gradients (slopes) than 200km/h. That translates into a lot less earthmoving which is expensive.


----------



## saiho

Restless said:


> Passenger traffic on the Silk road is a non-starter, so it'll just be for freight.


well then the HSR is just a political stunt to reduce regionalism in Xinjiang 



Restless said:


> 350km/h also has an advantage in that it can accept much higher gradients (slopes) than 200km/h. That translates into a lot less earthmoving which is expensive.


Wait that doesn't make sense one of the reasons 350+ HSR is built in huge viaducts and tunnels is to make it as perfectly level as possible. Sure the higher speed allows for more momentum is but it doesn't mean you should do it. That's like saying an expressway can have a steep gradient cause the car moves faster But in reality you make it at flat at possible to reduce vertical forces on the car and keep it on the ground.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

saiho said:


> Wait that doesn't make sense one of the reasons 350+ HSR is built in huge viaducts and tunnels is to make it as perfectly level as possible. Sure the higher speed allows for more momentum is but it doesn't mean you should do it. That's like saying an expressway can have a steep gradient cause the car moves faster But in reality you make it at flat at possible to reduce vertical forces on the car and keep it on the ground.


Compared to standard railways (particularly the ones that see freight traffic, track slope is usually measured in _permil_, which is elevation displacement by *kilometer*. 5 permil, which is already very trying for long freight trains, is 0.5%. HSR, being fast and lightweight, can support slopes of up to 3%. It's a huge increase compared to freight, but it's not going to cause vertical force issues (trains falling off the tracks). What I do know is that slope toleration heavily depends on train composition, factors such as weight and power distribution. In Germany, the newer HSR lines have very steep slopes (+2%) and only the ICE3 is allowed on them; the older ICE1 and ICE2 trainsets are banned from them because their power ratio is too weak and run the risk of stalling, as they still use traditional "powercar/Push/Pull" scheme, whereas the ICE3 is an EMU, with traction power distributed over the entire train.

The reasons I can come up with for the use of viaducts and tunnels are these: 

1. Land Acquisition Costs: Neglecting other regulations, the only land they need to buy is the cross-section of the support pylons. The same goes for tunneling, especially in deep areas; the only land that requires purchase would be the tunnel entrances. This makes sense when you are building through extremely dense urban areas, such as Hong Kong, which is exclusively underground. 

2. Alignment: Since 350/380 operation will require track as straight as possible, this one is a bit of a no-brainer: you are going to have to ignore terrain irregularities to maintain that perfect geometric profile. This will mean building viaducts and tunnels even though there are convenient ravines and plateaus nearby. 

3. Grade: Even though the grades are substantially more flexible than freight lines, maintaining a maximum grade of 3% still has its challenges; viaducts and tunnels will be necessary to keep the track in such condition. This can be seen as a part of alignment, "vertically" speaking.


----------



## Attus

^^ The best example from Europe is the HSR Frankfurt/M - Cologne (Köln). The max.speed on this line is 300 km/h which is valid for almost the whole line (sections inside the cities are more limited). This railway has 4% (40 permill) slopes as well which is quite unusual in heavy railways, e.g. in Germany the maximal slope is 1.25% (12.5 permill) normally (except for short ramps). 
Therefore the only vehicle type which is enabled to go to this line is ICE3. 
An important issue is superelavation. It means that in curves the outside rail is higher positioned than the inside one so that the train leans a little bit. 
See an example on this picture. 
Superelavation is always optimized for a certain speed which means that if the train drives exactly at that speed, than the load on the rails is perfectly balanced and lateral forces, too, are balanced, even the passangers feel as if the train didn't lean. 
However, if the train goes slower, e.g. because is not strong enough and the track is heavily sloped, then the load on the rails is not balanced (the inside, lower lying rail is more loaded), lateral forces are not balanced. In extreme cases the train creates such a big load on the inside rail that it collapses and a big disaster happens.


----------



## AlexNL

Attus said:


> Superelavation is always optimized for a certain speed which means that if the train drives exactly at that speed, than the load on the rails is perfectly balanced and lateral forces, too, are balanced, even the passangers feel as if the train didn't lean.
> However, if the train goes slower, e.g. because is not strong enough and the track is heavily sloped, then the load on the rails is not balanced (the inside, lower lying rail is more loaded), lateral forces are not balanced.


You can experience this by taking a Fyra train service in the Netherlands. A HSL has been purpose-built between Schiphol, Rotterdam, Breda and the border with Belgium. The design speed of this line is 300 km/h.

However, due to issues with the designated rolling stock (the AnsaldoBreda built V250 trainsets) the service is operated with replacement rolling stock: a locomotive and some intercity coaches, with the speed limited to 160 km/h.

When going through a curve the train leans over quite a lot, which is uncomfortable. It sometimes happens that passengers that are walking through the train land on another passenger's lap :lol:


----------



## Restless

saiho said:


> well then the HSR is just a political stunt to reduce regionalism in Xinjiang
> 
> 
> 
> Wait that doesn't make sense one of the reasons 350+ HSR is built in huge viaducts and tunnels is to make it as perfectly level as possible. Sure the higher speed allows for more momentum is but it doesn't mean you should do it. That's like saying an expressway can have a steep gradient cause the car moves faster But in reality you make it at flat at possible to reduce vertical forces on the car and keep it on the ground.


The existing conventional railway line from Lanzhou to Urumqi is already or shortly will be overloaded. So they have to build a new line anyway.

A 350km/h train has a lot more energy than a 200km/h train, and spends a lot less time subject to the gravity of a slope. So fast trains just power through a short steep section, while slow trains can't do that. It's established design over the last 30+ years

See article below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_steepest_gradients_on_adhesion_railways


----------



## Restless

As for viaducts, I guess they can select a shorter or longer pre-cast concrete support, within certain limits.

That would reduce the excavation cost and time considerably.


----------



## makita09

saiho said:


> Wait that doesn't make sense one of the reasons 350+ HSR is built in huge viaducts and tunnels is to make it as perfectly level as possible. Sure the higher speed allows for more momentum is but it doesn't mean you should do it.


No, it isn't. Its built in tunnels and on viaducts to keep it straight, and you will probably find that this high speed line will be built with as much gradient as possible within the maximum limit in order to reduct the costs of the bridges and viaducts. Why does it need to be flat? It isn't being hauled by steam locomotives!


----------



## foxmulder

A fifth vertical trunk line to make 5+4? Running from Beijing to Kunming through Xi-an.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> It's rumored that Beijing-Zhengzhou line will start trial operation on Nov 15th. Beijing-Shijiazhuang segment has been under testing since September.


It is Nov 15th.

How are the tests of Beijing-Shijiazhuang and Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou progressing?


----------



## stoneybee

foxmulder said:


> A fifth vertical trunk line to make 5+4? Running from Beijing to Kunming through Xi-an.


Great news, that completes the much needed missing piece. Now the network core is complete.

When will this be completed? Please share :cheers:


----------



## foxmulder

stoneybee said:


> Great news, that completes the much needed missing piece. Now the network core is complete.
> 
> When will this be completed? Please share :cheers:


There is no plans about it. I just wanted to highlight the missing link, just my wet dream  Sorry to excite you.


----------



## laojang

foxmulder said:


> There is no plans about it. I just wanted to highlight the missing link, just my wet dream  Sorry to excite you.


It is a little better than a dream. The Datong-Xian section (700km+ long) is well under construction. For example pictures of the bridge across Huang river, under construction, was in the news not long ago.

Laojang


----------



## gdolniak

*Shenzhen Buji Rwy Station (proposed new name Shenzhen East Railway Station)*

According to Sina.com, the station's new name is waiting for the approval from the Ministry of Railway and the new station should be put into operation before Chinese New Year.

Please correct, if I didn't translate it properly.

Original link here: http://news.sina.com.cn/o/2012-11-16/065925592389.shtml



> 深圳东站有望春运前启用
> 2012年11月16日06:59 深圳商报
> 【深圳商报讯】（记者 李秀瑜）记者昨日从市轨道办证实，深圳东站（布吉火车站）将力争在春运前投入使用，但具体通车时间将由广铁集团具体发布。布吉火车站将以辅助功能为主，不会取代深圳火车站（罗湖站）在深圳的“大佬”地位。
> 
> 市轨道办的相关负责人介绍，目前布吉火车站更名深圳东站已向铁道部报批，目前正待审批结果，而位于坪山新区的深圳东站或更名为坪山站。
> 
> 有着90多年历史的布吉火车站，是深圳最老的火车站。该站东临龙岗大道，西靠吉华路，总占地面积约12.7万平方米。布吉火车站改造工程总投资约6.43亿元，总建筑面积约6.7万平方米，其中，站房面积约2.6万平方米，设计站台6座，股道11条，广深铁路线正线4条。该站位于深圳站北边，经广深线南下的列车要经过布吉站才到深圳站。
> 
> “布吉站之前并无办理客运业务，之前展开了改造工程，建成后，将成为一个集铁路站、地铁站（地铁三号线布吉站）、常规公交站为一体的综合客运枢纽，成为目前深圳主要客运枢纽深圳火车站（罗湖站）的重要辅助，但不会取代罗湖站目前的‘大佬’地位。”
> 
> “罗湖站的部分长途列车将改往布吉火车站始发和终到，预测布吉火车站开通初期日均客流量达5万人，远期规划日均客流量预计达到9万人。”市轨道办的相关负责人告诉记者。
> 
> 记者了解到，目前，布吉火车站已进入工程的收尾阶段，并且正在进行国铁运营及内部管理的部署。
> 
> 开通初期，布吉火车站将以长途列车运营为主，并设计预留了接驳城际铁路的条件。据透露，布吉火车站投入使用初期，预计有10对长途客车会在此站始发。
> 
> “与地铁开通之初不同的是，布吉火车站属于深圳最老的火车站，即使在改造期间，也有列车经过此站，因此不需要长达3个月的空车调试期。但是需要针对信号系统、运行图等与其他线路进行联调，调试后即可投入载客运营。”市轨道办的相关负责人告诉记者。
> 
> （原标题：深圳东站有望春运前启用）


----------



## big-dog

foxmulder said:


> There is no plans about it. I just wanted to highlight the missing link, just my wet dream  Sorry to excite you.


Keep in mind the hugh Qin Mountains span between Xi'an and Chongqing. The expressway of Xian-Chongqing is one of the most difficult ever built. It'll cost hugh building a HSR line between them.


----------



## foxmulder

^^ Definitely, it will be a colossal project.


----------



## yaohua2000

Here's the Xi'an–Chengdu HSR in Shaanxi Province:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

laojang said:


> It is a little better than a dream. The Datong-Xian section (700km+ long) is well under construction. For example pictures of the bridge across Huang river, under construction, was in the news not long ago.
> 
> Laojang


Does Datong-Xian high speed railway connect to Beijing in any way?


----------



## stoneybee

foxmulder said:


> There is no plans about it. I just wanted to highlight the missing link, just my wet dream  Sorry to excite you.


Damn, but at least I am not the only dreamer here :cheers:


----------



## laojang

chornedsnorkack said:


> Does Datong-Xian high speed railway connect to Beijing in any way?


It will go through Taiyuan which will be
connected to Beijing by the end of the year. However, this is a big detour.
A Datong-Beijing direct line seems still far off.

Laojang


----------



## yaohua2000

damndynamite said:


> Still can't figure out why the Urumqi-Lanzhou line is 350km/h. Is it possible that the construction cost of a line at that speed is $10 billion dollars greater than the line running at normal speeds?


Rumor: Lanzhou–Urumqi may have slowed down to 200 km/h. Harbin–Dalian will operate at 220 km/h maximum initially. Thanks to Mr. Sheng Guangzu. Thanks to JY and GZ.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

yaohua2000 said:


> Rumor: Lanzhou–Urumqi may have slowed down to 200 km/h. Harbin–Dalian will operate at 220 km/h maximum initially. Thanks to Mr. Sheng Guangzu. Thanks to JY and GZ.


Wuhan-Zhengzhou was 300 km/h. How fast shall Zhengzhou-Shijiazhuang be?


----------



## yaohua2000

chornedsnorkack said:


> Wuhan-Zhengzhou was 300 km/h. How fast shall Zhengzhou-Shijiazhuang be?


Beijing–Shenzhen = 300 km/h


----------



## chornedsnorkack

yaohua2000 said:


> Thanks to Mr. Sheng Guangzu. Thanks to JY and GZ.


Something odd about Sheng Guangzu:
He is born in 1949. He is not old: all the Five Elders of Standing Committee are older (the youngest is Wang Qishan, and he was born July 1948).

Sheng Guangzu used to be a member of 17th Central Committee - in stroke order, Sheng is after Huangs and Cao, and before Chang, Fu, Kang, Zhang, Liangs and Pengs.

In 18th Central Committee, Huangs are there, a Cao is - but then a Qi and a Chang. Then a Lu and Pengs.

No Sheng Guangzu.

Is Sheng Guangzu still Minister?


----------



## yaohua2000

Also rumor: Beijing–Guangzhou HSR to open on December 20. Beijing–Xi'an G87/G88 04h30m, Beijing–Guangzhou G79/G80 07h59m.



chornedsnorkack said:


> In 18th Central Committee, Huangs are there, a Cao is - but then a Qi and a Chang. Then a Lu and Pengs.
> 
> No Sheng Guangzu.
> 
> Is Sheng Guangzu still Minister?


Yes, and Hu is still the President, until next March. The 18th Central Committee is the PARTY's Committee. The Ministry of Railways is a department of the GOVERNMENT.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Interesting, no Beijing-Shenzhen Futian trains yet?


----------



## Galactic

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Interesting, no Beijing-Shenzhen Futian trains yet?


The opening of Shenzhen Futian station has been delayed to 2014. Source


----------



## skyridgeline

yaohua2000 said:


> Rumor: Lanzhou–Urumqi may have slowed down to 200 km/h. Harbin–Dalian will operate at 220 km/h maximum initially. Thanks to *Mr. Sheng Guangzu*. Thanks to JY and GZ.


Why do you thank him? Are you suggesting he is favoring other modes of travel?

I think Lanzhou–Urumqi @ 200 km/h will be a failure.


----------



## Silly_Walks

yaohua2000 said:


> Rumor: Lanzhou–Urumqi may have slowed down to 200 km/h.


Will the line at least be built to 350 km/h standards? Because in that case at least in the future the mistake can be rectified.


----------



## Sopomon

skyridgeline said:


> Why do you thank him? Are you suggesting he is favoring other modes of travel?
> 
> I think Lanzhou–Urumqi @ 200 km/h will be a failure.


Even at 350 km/h it won't be too successful, it's just too long to merit the link. At 200? Probsbly only sleepers will have an effective share of the market.


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## chornedsnorkack

Sopomon said:


> Even at 350 km/h it won't be too successful, it's just too long to merit the link. At 200? Probsbly only sleepers will have an effective share of the market.


Are 300 km/h sleeper trains needed between Beijing and Guangzhou?


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

The Lanzhou Urumqi HSR is just for prestige and grandness. It looks and sounds cool to have a high speed train going through the beautiful empty terrain. It's a bit like the railway to Lhasa, now it's something the government can brag about.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> The Lanzhou Urumqi HSR is just for prestige and grandness. It looks and sounds cool to have a high speed train going through the beautiful empty terrain.


And to connect at high speed "the whole country", Kashgar to Hunchun, Sanya to Mohe... 

Lanzhou-Xian is quoted as 678 km by low speed railway. When is Xian-Baoji-Lanzhou high speed railway due for completion?


----------



## FM 2258

Galactic said:


> The opening of Shenzhen Futian station has been delayed to 2014. Source



Awesome, thanks for the article. 





VECTROTALENZIS said:


> The Lanzhou Urumqi HSR is just for prestige and grandness. It looks and sounds cool to have a high speed train going through the beautiful empty terrain. It's a bit like the railway to Lhasa, now it's something the government can brag about.


I say if they can afford to build it, it's not a bad idea to have the option.


----------



## Restless

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> The Lanzhou Urumqi HSR is just for prestige and grandness. It looks and sounds cool to have a high speed train going through the beautiful empty terrain. It's a bit like the railway to Lhasa, now it's something the government can brag about.


I think there was an element of prestige in making Lanzhou-Urumqi 350km/h instead of say 250km/h, but you could say the same about many of the shorter-distance 350km/h lines in the rest of China.

The Lhasa line however, is in a different category. When it opened, transportation costs and journey times to the rest of China dropped sharply, because previously there was only one narrow and dangerous highway which was covered in snow during the winter.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> I think there was an element of prestige in making Lanzhou-Urumqi 350km/h instead of say 250km/h, but you could say the same about many of the shorter-distance 350km/h lines in the rest of China.


How many of these are not branches of 350 km/h network after completion of missing links?


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> How many of these are not branches of 350 km/h network after completion of missing links?


These are the 200-250km/h ones on the main 4+4 network

Shenzhen-HongKong 26km
Ningbo-Shenzhen 1300km approx
Qingdao-Taiyuan 873km
Nanjing-Chengdu 1700km approx

Then there are the other local 200-250km/h lines


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## big-dog

Zhengzhou-Wuhan HSR photos










by 罗春晓


----------



## kw0943

After the wenzhou crash, some 200kmh lines were lowered to 160 kmh. I understand that they are the z-series lines. How many were effected, and what is the current status?


----------



## big-dog

Per local news,

Harbin-Dalian HSR to open on *November 25th 2012*

Beijing-Guangzhou HSR to trial run on *December 20th 2012*


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> Per local news,
> 
> Harbin-Dalian HSR to open on *November 25th 2012*


What shall be the top speed of Dalian-Shenyang-Harbin HSR this Sunday?


----------



## John66

big-dog said:


> Per local news,
> 
> Harbin-Dalian HSR to open on *November 25th 2012*
> 
> Beijing-Guangzhou HSR to trial run on *December 20th 2012*


 
^^

*Great news*


----------



## China Hand

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> The Lanzhou Urumqi HSR is just for prestige and grandness. It looks and sounds cool to have a high speed train going through the beautiful empty terrain. It's a bit like the railway to Lhasa, now it's something the government can brag about.


There are domestic security concerns that drive many of these new CRH lines to be installed.

Imagine how many armed troops you can ship from Beijing to Urumqi, if you make the car SRO and run it over night at 380kph. One train is a few thousand people. Makes internal security a snap.



Saiho said:


> Except no country builds an HSR strictly for tourism because of its cyclical nature you will never recoup the costs. HSR is all about density, population and economical importance of an area.


Tourism, having a ZGT network that covers the entire nation, connects most of the major cities, security, bragging rights, The New Silk Road to Russia or Kazakhstan, and national pride.

"Ride the world's largest and fastest high speed rail network through stunning vistas of immense beauty as you take in China's vast western interior."

Train leaves Xi'an (already a major world tourism destination) at 800 am and arrives in Ulumuqi at 600pm local time. 220 to 245 avg kph. It makes for a compelling long distance trip to see vast expanses.

Train riding fans like to take trips like this...


----------



## China Hand

big-dog said:


> Keep in mind the huge Qin Mountains span between Xi'an and Chongqing. The expressway of Xian-Chongqing is one of the most difficult ever built. It'll cost huge building a HSR line between them.


If any nation has the political will, the political drive, the economic means and the engineering talent to undertake such a project, it is the Chinese.

I would say they will do it just for bragging rights.

"This is how strong we are..."


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> There are domestic security concerns that drive many of these new CRH lines to be installed.
> 
> Imagine how many armed troops you can ship from Beijing to Urumqi, if you make the car SRO and run it over night at 380kph. One train is a few thousand people. Makes internal security a snap.


16 cars is about 1300 seats on Shinkansen.

But if problems exist, HSR is neither fastest nor safest. 1 CRH train has about as many seats as 2 A380-s. And more importantly, rails are relatively easy to attack or sabotage - 2000 km of rails through empty desert are hard to guard everywhere. Guarding the perimetre of a 3 km airport runway is easier.


----------



## Sopomon

China Hand said:


> If any nation has the political will, the political drive, the economic means and the engineering talent to undertake such a project, it is the Chinese.
> 
> I would say they will do it just for bragging rights.
> 
> "This is how strong we are..."



Wait, what? There aren't even any plans for this at all, right?

I thought the map posted earlier was just fiction


----------



## Silver Swordsman

chornedsnorkack said:


> But if problems exist, HSR is neither fastest nor safest. 1 CRH train has about as many seats as 2 A380-s. And more importantly, rails are relatively easy to attack or sabotage - 2000 km of rails through empty desert are hard to guard everywhere. Guarding the perimetre of a 3 km airport runway is easier.


LOL

No. It may be easier to guard a runway than to guard a high speed railway, but that does not make air any safer. 

Airplanes carry large amounts of flammable fuel, so in the event of any accident, combustion is ALWAYS a problem. In fact, there are many cases of air crashes in which the fatalities were not attributed to the collision but rather to burns and smoke inhalation. High speed trains run on electricity, which completely negates this threat. 

Cabin pressurization also makes the fuselage succeptible to rupture. It doesn't take much to make a hole in the side of an airplane, but once it does, it is sufficient to rip the plane to pieces. For any train, an explosion will only have an immediate effect; a grenade-like bomb would only injure the people immediately surrounding it. In the Madrid train bombings, the bombers had to detonate multiple bombs per car in order to maximize casualties. 

Airplanes also fly in the air and are piloted by humans. The room for error between an airline pilot and a train driver are very small and relatively large, respectively, with train driver pretty much only in charge of speed, since the train runs on a predetermined path. 

Lastly, it is NOTORIOUSLY difficult to derail a train. The sheer inertia of the train is its greatest safety, allowing it to plow through most attempts of sabotage with ease. As you can see from this video, the train simply barrels through gaps in the track and continues. The same goes for bomb attempts; damage is extremely localized and pose no risk of derailment. Entire carriages have been torn asunder with minimal effect to the entire train. Even if the train DOES derail, the law of inertia still applies in that the train will continue to travel in a straight line until it comes to a complete stop. This is usually what happens, with no fatalities. Train services in Germany, Taiwan, and Japan have been known to derail at full speed (300kmh) under varying circumstances and all managed to safetly come to a stop without injuring its passengers. 

The only way to obtain the same scale of disaster is to completely obstruct the train's path with something of parable mass to the train; the only example of this is Eschede. 


I believe that the validity of my claim that high speed rail is MUCH safer than air travel can be checked by one final factoid; that there have only been two fatal incidents in the entire half-century history of high speed rail (Eschede and Wenzhou), compared to the cases of downed aircraft we see on the news every year.

EDIT: Fixed wrong video code.


----------



## makita09

Silver Swordsman said:


> The only way to obtain the same scale of disaster is to completely obstruct the train's path with something of parable mass to the train; the only example of this is Eschede.


And even Eschede only hit the bridge because a half ton 1.5 metre long 10cm thick piece of steel pinned itself into the train at one end (and unfortunately straight through a passenger) and into the ground at the other, ploughing through ballast and sleepers at 200km/h and steering the vehicle off course to one side. It needed something sustained like that to drag it away from the track.


----------



## Geography

> Lastly, it is NOTORIOUSLY difficult to derail a train. The sheer inertia of the train is its greatest safety, allowing it to plow through most attempts of sabotage with ease. As you can see from this video, the train simply barrels through gaps in the track and continues. The same goes for bomb attempts; damage is extremely localized and pose no risk of derailment. Entire carriages have been torn asunder with minimal effect to the entire train. Even if the train DOES derail, the law of inertia still applies in that the train will continue to travel in a straight line until it comes to a complete stop. This is usually what happens, with no fatalities. Train services in Germany, Taiwan, and Japan have been known to derail at full speed (300kmh) under varying circumstances and all managed to safetly come to a stop without injuring its passengers.


Whoa, what? You're thinking only of sabotage on a train, which is what that Mole video is about. It's pretty easy to derail a train by shifting or blowing up the track. Just as highways must be straighter at higher speeds, so too must railway tracks be at high speed. High speed trains have little tolerance for track misalignment because of the speeds they run at, so if there is even a moderate bend or break in the track, the first car will derail. 

Once the first train car derails, every other single train will derail until the train runs out of momentum. High speed trains running at 300+ km/h will not "barrel through" a gap in the track, as if the train were a person jumping over puddles. As soon as the first car hits the massive friction that comes from going off the rails and onto the ground, the inertia from the rear cars still running at top speed on the rails will cause the first car to jack knife and crash the whole train with catastrophic effects.


----------



## highway35

If we're going to judge sorely based on passenger traffic or commercial viability, many of the infrastructure works in Tibet and Xinjiang are unnecessary and unjustified. These include Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR; they also include many highways, airports, etc.

The economic case is stronger in Xinjiang than Tibet. Xinjiang is shaping up to be one of the China's largest energy production base. See Xinjiang Poised to Become China’s Largest Coal Producer: Will Move Global Coal, Natural Gas, and Crude Oil Markets. The existing conventional line between Lanzhou and Urumqi will be increasingly used by freight, whereas the new HSR will be used for passenger traffic. The HSR alone might still not be profitable, but the increased freight traffic on the conventional line due to the increased capacity will go a long way to compensate the loss on HSR.

There are obviously also political and security reasons to justify the HSR and the associated cost, which may be equally important as the economic reason. Of course, the cost differential between a 350km/h line and a 200km/h line being much smaller than in other regions is also a favorable consideration for building the Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR.





China Hand said:


> There are domestic security concerns that drive many of these new CRH lines to be installed.
> 
> Imagine how many armed troops you can ship from Beijing to Urumqi, if you make the car SRO and run it over night at 380kph. One train is a few thousand people. Makes internal security a snap.
> 
> 
> 
> Tourism, having a ZGT network that covers the entire nation, connects most of the major cities, security, bragging rights, The New Silk Road to Russia or Kazakhstan, and national pride.
> 
> "Ride the world's largest and fastest high speed rail network through stunning vistas of immense beauty as you take in China's vast western interior."
> 
> Train leaves Xi'an (already a major world tourism destination) at 800 am and arrives in Ulumuqi at 600pm local time. 220 to 245 avg kph. It makes for a compelling long distance trip to see vast expanses.
> 
> Train riding fans like to take trips like this...


----------



## laojang

Sopomon said:


> Wait, what? There aren't even any plans for this at all, right?
> 
> I thought the map posted earlier was just fiction


No. One segment of it (from Datong to Xian), which is 800km+ long, has been under construction for a few years.

Laojang


----------



## skyridgeline

Sopomon said:


> Wait, what? There aren't even any plans for this at all, right?
> 
> I thought *the map* posted earlier was just fiction



http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=97355632&postcount=4839


It's going right through an earthquake prone region. Some redundancy is a good thing.

A reminder again, tourism is going to be huge in China.


----------



## foxmulder

skyridgeline said:


> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=97355632&postcount=4839
> 
> 
> It's going right through an earthquake prone region. Some redundancy is a good thing.
> 
> A reminder again, tourism is going to be huge in China.


It is partially dream, partially reality 

I was just pointing as another North to South trunk line, the whole thing (Beijing to Kunming via Chongqing) would have been nice. That's all.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

What shall be the travel time Dalian-Shenyang-Changchun-Harbin this Sunday?


----------



## Silver Swordsman

Geography said:


> Whoa, what? You're thinking only of sabotage on a train, which is what that Mole video is about. It's pretty easy to derail a train by shifting or blowing up the track. Just as highways must be straighter at higher speeds, so too must railway tracks be at high speed. High speed trains have little tolerance for track misalignment because of the speeds they run at, so if there is even a moderate bend or break in the track, the first car will derail.
> 
> Once the first train car derails, every other single train will derail until the train runs out of momentum. High speed trains running at 300+ km/h will not "barrel through" a gap in the track, as if the train were a person jumping over puddles. As soon as the first car hits the massive friction that comes from going off the rails and onto the ground, the inertia from the rear cars still running at top speed on the rails will cause the first car to jack knife and crash the whole train with catastrophic effects.


False. True, badly aligned track can derail a train at high speeds, but a single rut in the track will not, as apparent in the fixed video link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-8gV4DJZUw 

I would also like to bring up Klaus-Peter Sabotta, a German rail saboteur who tried to derail an ICE by jacking distorting the rails by over *50* cm. When the train passed over at full speed, the only thing that happened was a bump. The only reason the ICE jackknifed at Eschede was because the overpass had collapsed and completely blocked it's path; if we see the cars that made it past before the bridge collapsed, you'll see that most of them stayed upright and intact. 

The same goes for most high speed train derailments. Trains in Japan and Taiwan both derailed during earthquakes, but merely continued forward until they ground to a halt. 


Your argument is invalid.


----------



## Geography

Every train crash I've seen, freight or passenger, shows a jack-knifed wreckage. It seems to be the norm for train crashes. When I search for "train derailment" in Google, almost every single picture in the first pages shows jack-knifed wreckage. How do you explain that?


















































Jack knifing occurs with the front of an articulated vehicle (18-wheeler or train) suddenly slows down while the back section continues at high speed. The high-moving back section pushes up against the rapidly slowing front section and bends to the side (aka jack knifing). If the front of a train derails at high speed and rapidly decelerates, this is practically unavoidable unless the driver can hit the breaks immediately, before the driver is thrown about the cabin as it derails.


----------



## foxmulder

Guys... this is getting really boring...


----------



## phoenixboi08

If I'm not mistaken, some improvements in design have been undertaken to avoid this (I'm thinking specifically of the new AVG trains in France)...


----------



## Restless

High-speed trains are normally designed as permanently coupled trainsets, with the strength to reduce the possibility of jackknifing.

===

"Due to High-speed rail track and equipment safety enhancements accidental derailments are now less lethal. Jenkins explains that high-speed train sets are designed with relatively rigid, semi-permanent connections while slower-speed trains rely on traditional "knuckle" couplers. These more rigid connections greatly reduce the probability of a train "jackknifing," or of partially or completely rolling over. Non-high-speed passenger trains tend to jackknife or flip over, causing a significantly high number of injuries and fatalities."

http://www.masstransitmag.com/artic...needs-a-different-approach-than-commuter-rail


----------



## gdolniak

To all of your "derailing fans", please read about Jakobs bogie before you start commenting why trains behave like they do when they derail.


----------



## Geography

Do China's HSR trainsets use Jakob bogies? I don't think they do. This picture appears to show independent bogies on each rail car, now a Jakob bogie connecting two cars. But it's a little difficult to tell for sure.

From Wikipedia by 颐园新居 on 10 August 2009:


----------



## makita09

Geography - Silver Swordsman's point is that high velocity incidents tend not to jackknife, and so to counter this argument you post pictures of low speed collisions...

The requirements of evidence to support your position is finding pictures of jackknifed coaches on high speed accidents that aren't Eschede, and don't involve collisions with other trains (i.e. accidents that correlate to sabotage which was the original point).

The only high speed trains that use Jacob's bogies are Talgo and TGV/AVG. Siemens, Shinkansen, all CRH etc etc use conventional bogies.


----------



## Restless

makita09 said:


> Geography - Silver Swordsman's point is that high velocity incidents tend not to jackknife, and so to counter this argument you post pictures of low speed collisions...
> 
> The requirements of evidence to support your position is finding pictures of jackknifed coaches on high speed accidents that aren't Eschede, and don't involve collisions with other trains (i.e. accidents that correlate to sabotage which was the original point).
> 
> The only high speed trains that use Jacob's bogies are Talgo and TGV/AVG. Siemens, Shinkansen, all CRH etc etc use conventional bogies.


Didn't anyone read what the nice chap from the National Transportation Security Center (part of Homeland Security) said about derailing high-speed trains?

http://www.masstransitmag.com/artic...needs-a-different-approach-than-commuter-rail


----------



## chornedsnorkack

chornedsnorkack said:


> Now that it is December 2012, which railway lines are on schedule to open in 2013?
> 
> Hangzhou-Ningbo?


Reported for "first half":
http://www.whatsonningbo.com/travel-msg-481.html


chornedsnorkack said:


> Xiamen-Longhua?


Reported for September.


----------



## China Hand

hmmwv said:


> Like I have mentioned before, those intercity suburban commuter trains are operated different than normal CRH service as they don't belong to railway bureaus but rather the Chengdu city metro company.


Like transferring from the LIRR to Amtrak in Penn Station...


----------



## China Hand

hkskyline said:


> The entire journey time between Beijing and Guangzhou will be cut to eight hours from 22 hours.


Cost probably about .46 CNY X 2100 = ~ 966 Yuan, one way, 2nd Class.

You can get cheaper air fare, discounts of 1,000 r/t on Ctrip, but you are in a sardine can.

Those of us who like trains, leg room and seat pitch in 1st Class, will gladly spend an extra few hours and Yuan for a ZGT trip.

The bonus is that if you can afford CRH, that you can probably get a walk-on ticket for 1st, or even 2nd, class during the crazy holiday travel seasons in China. Being able to walk in and get a seat for the train departing in 20 minutes, is worth it.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> Cost probably about .46 CNY X 2100 = ~ 966 Yuan, one way, 2nd Class.


On Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway, 4 D trains operate daily. Of which D365 runs to Fuzhou.

This is 2223 km, and costs RMB 676.

What would a D train Beijing-Guangzhou cost?


----------



## gdolniak

chornedsnorkack said:


> On Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway, 4 D trains operate daily. Of which D365 runs to Fuzhou.
> 
> This is 2223 km, and costs RMB 676.
> 
> What would a D train Beijing-Guangzhou cost?


According to Guangzhou Daily's article from last month, the ticket price should be 957 RMB for second class and 1,522 RMB for the first class.


----------



## FM 2258

chornedsnorkack said:


> On Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway, 4 D trains operate daily. Of which D365 runs to Fuzhou.
> 
> This is 2223 km, and costs RMB 676.
> 
> What would a D train Beijing-Guangzhou cost?


Curious, do D trains from Beijing to Shanghai run on the new PDL or conventional track?


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> On Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway, 4 D trains operate daily. Of which D365 runs to Fuzhou.
> 
> This is 2223 km, and costs RMB 676.
> 
> What would a D train Beijing-Guangzhou cost?


My price multiplier is for G trains, and it's usually close if the mileage is known.

D trains would be cheaper, K trains cheaper still.

As velocity drops so does the price.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

gnatho said:


> September
> 
> source


This source:
http://szdaily.sznews.com/html/2012-12/07/content_2306074.htm
says "at the end of 2013. "

Which source is right?


----------



## gnatho

chornedsnorkack said:


> This source:
> http://szdaily.sznews.com/html/2012-12/07/content_2306074.htm
> says "at the end of 2013. "
> 
> Which source is right?


Yours, there's an update on gaotie.cn as well

link


----------



## chornedsnorkack

FM 2258 said:


> Curious, do D trains from Beijing to Shanghai run on the new PDL or conventional track?


There are 7 D trains from Beijing to Shanghai.

Of which 4 - D365 and also D315, D317 and 319 - cover 1318 km, take between 8:07 and 9:08, and make stops like Nanjing South and Kunshan South.

The other 3 - D313, D311 and D321 - cover 1454 or 1461 km, take between 11:43 and 11:48, and make just 2 intermediate stops like Nanjing and Suzhou.


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> Curious, do D trains from Beijing to Shanghai run on the new PDL or conventional track?


I'm fairly certain they run on the PDL.


----------



## Pansori

hmmwv said:


> I'm fairly certain they run on the PDL.


How's that? How many G trains a day run on the Beijing-Shanghai PDL? How do they overtake if some D trains have only one or two stops? And what is the old track used for then? Isn't it a 250km/h line anyway?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> How's that? How many G trains a day run on the Beijing-Shanghai PDL?


All the way (Beijing-Shanghai) 37. 

D365 makes 14 stops between Beijing and Shanghai.
Tianjin South 7 min
Cangzhou West 25 min (sic! 8:44-9:09)
Jinan West 2 min
Taian 7 min
Qufu East 11 min
Tengzhou East 8 min
Xuzhou East 2 min
Suzhou (Anhui) East 8 min
Bengbu South 1 min
Dingyuan 20 min
Chuzhou 1 min
Nanjing South 2 min
Zhenjiang South 2 min
Wuxi East 1 min


----------



## Restless

If there's only 37 G trains on the Shanghai-Beijing HSR, no wonder there is space for slow D Trains.

They'd be running 140 G trains if they were at full capacity


----------



## gdolniak

*Question*

What is the best website, or maybe through a phone line, for purchasing high-speed train tickets in China? Not only available for Chinese citizens (ID card) but also for foreigners (passport number)? I want to avoid the lines at the station.


----------



## Pansori

gdolniak said:


> What is the best website, or maybe through a phone line, for purchasing high-speed train tickets in China? Not only available for Chinese citizens (ID card) but also for foreigners (passport number)? I want to avoid the lines at the station.


I think you can just ask the hotel/hostel reception to do it for you. They need the passport number. However you still have to collect the ticket at the station (or perhaps it can be mailed to the hotel?). At least this is how I did it.


----------



## phoenixboi08

Pansori said:


> I think you can just ask the hotel/hostel reception to do it for you. They need the passport number. However you still have to collect the ticket at the station (or perhaps it can be mailed to the hotel?). At least this is how I did it.


Yes, they can fetch (or have delivered) your ticket(s). I did this when I was in Beijing.


----------



## hmmwv

Second that, there are lots of railway tickets offices all over the city, the hotel should be able to get a ticket for you quickly.


----------



## big-dog

^^ I use the ticket offices and ctrip.com to purchase HSR tickets. The MOR official site 12306.cn is hard to use for me so I never go there.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

chornedsnorkack said:


> Now that it is December 2012, which railway lines are on schedule to open in 2013?
> 
> Xuzhou-Zhengzhou?


Reported as 2015. Another source claims December 2016.


----------



## big-dog

12.9 Beijing citizen protesting Beijing-Shenyang HSR bypassing their homes and questioning the environment report
































































Video

(sina.com)


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

What does it say on the papers?


----------



## Sopomon

I seems most are saying things a long the lines of

'Opposing the HSR'
'Resist!'
'We don't share the same view'

I don't really know what character combinations in Chinese mean though


----------



## hmmwv

Most says "Against being made to agree," "HSR has insufficient clearance from home," "Environmental impact study was falsified," "Against bureaucracy."


----------



## UD2

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> What does it say on the papers?



This is what the signs say.

Against: High-speed rail passing before my front door.
Against: High-speed rail breeching the minimal allowed distance [from a residential area].
Against: Being forced to agree.
Against: The Third Railway Institute forging Environmental Study results.
Running nearly one hundred trains closer than ten meters [from my residence] is not harmonious.
Support: 18th Chinese National People's Congress. Against: Bureaucratic Formality (I assume that's a way of saying rubber stamping)


----------



## Pansori

Of course, the more noise they'll make the more 'profit' they can expect.


----------



## hmmwv

To their credit there are legit concerns such as the minimum clearance of the line, although vast majority of the buildings are outside the 30m minimum distance, there is also a provision that states that the line shouldn't be built within 200m of noise sensitive installations such as schools, hospitals, and residential complexes. MOR has provided some good protective measures though, in some area extensive noise curtain walls will be constructed, that's why this time around the opposition is much smaller than previous ones. 

On the other hand BS claims such as electromagnetic radiation pollution is just ridiculous.


----------



## FM 2258

hmmwv said:


> To their credit there are legit concerns such as the minimum clearance of the line, although vast majority of the buildings are outside the 30m minimum distance, there is also a provision that states that the line shouldn't be built within 200m of noise sensitive installations such as schools, hospitals, and residential complexes. MOR has provided some good protective measures though, in some area extensive noise curtain walls will be constructed, that's why this time around the opposition is much smaller than previous ones.
> 
> On the other hand BS claims such as electromagnetic radiation pollution is just ridiculous.


I'm not too sure about the electromagnetic radiation pollution either, I remember people saying the same thing about high voltage power lines but I'm not sure what those studies produced.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> O
> 2. Xi'an-Baoji section, construction started on Feb 28, 2012, scheduled to finish in late 2013 and trial runs start early 2014. Design speed 350km/h.


Is it on schedule for completion within 2013?


----------



## big-dog

big-dog said:


> *12.1 Harbin-Dalian HSR starts operation officially*
> (xinhuanet)


In ten days of Harbin-Dalian HSR opening, the long distance bus fare along the line has dropped up to 30%.

source


----------



## Silly_Walks

FM 2258 said:


> I remember people saying the same thing about high voltage power lines but I'm not sure what those studies produced.


I remember those too. I can't remember hearing what official studies have said, but I have seen figures of people living under power lines getting cancer, and they had a much higher percentage than the average.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> In ten days of Harbin-Dalian HSR opening, the long distance bus fare along the line has dropped up to 30%.


Have the fares of slow speed trains on the same line been affected?


----------



## urbanfan89

chornedsnorkack said:


> Have the fares of slow speed trains on the same line been affected?


All railway fares in China are fixed according to a mathematical formula, unlike in western countries.


----------



## skyridgeline

big-dog said:


> 12.9 Beijing citizen protesting Beijing-Shenyang HSR bypassing their homes and questioning the environment report
> 
> 
> Video
> 
> (sina.com)



Will something like this help?


The Zhanxi bridge highway in Beijing:

transportbox.blogspot.ca









by Tux Tuxando (panoramio.com)


----------



## :jax:

Silly_Walks said:


> I remember those too. I can't remember hearing what official studies have said, but I have seen figures of people living under power lines getting cancer, and they had a much higher percentage than the average.


The advice of the resident Internet MD seems fair enough. While there have been single studies with one effect or the opposite, no such effect has been demonstrated. There is not enough evidence to conclusively state that there cannot be adverse health effect either. 

Back to the health and other effects of high speed rail.


----------



## hmmwv

skyridgeline said:


> Will something like this help?
> The Zhanxi bridge highway in Beijing:


I probably will, the reason that opposition is not as strong as before is because after the first round of environmental impact study and public hearing MOR has agreed to increase the acoustic barrier to full height from half height. I'm sure if they propose a fully enclosed railway viaduct the public opposition will die down significantly. On the other hand they have to deal with a significant increase in cost as well the engineering challenge of tunnel shocks.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Does anyone have a map of Beijing showing the high speed railways - Beijing-Tianjin, Beijing-Shanghai, Beijing-Shijiazhuang, Beijing-Chengde-Shenyang - and the other (existing slow) railways?


----------



## yaohua2000

G71 from Beijing West to Shenzhen North, 10h05m, 219 km/h
• 08:00 – 08:00 Beijing West
• 08:41 – 08:43 Baoding East
• 09:19 – 09:22 Shijiazhuang
• 10:01 – 10:03 Handan East
• 10:41 – 10:43 Xinxiang East
• 11:04 – 11:07 Zhengzhou East
• 11:53 – 11:55 Zhumadian West
• 13:06 – 13:09 Wuhan
• 13:58 – 14:00 Yueyang East
• 14:34 – 14:39 Changsha South
• 15:16 – 15:18 Hengyang East
• 15:35 – 15:37 Leiyang West
• 15:58 – 16:05 Chenzhou West
• 17:26 – 17:36 Guangzhou South
• 18:05 – 18:05 Shenzhen North

G72 from Shenzhen North to Beijing West, 10h21m, 213 km/h
• 08:00 – 08:00 Shenzhen North
• 08:29 – 08:32 Guangzhou South
• 10:07 – 10:09 Leiyang West
• 10:48 – 10:50 Zhuzhou West
• 11:07 – 11:11 Changsha South
• 11:45 – 11:57 Yueyang East
• 12:47 – 12:50 Wuhan
• 13:53 – 13:55 Zhumadian West
• 14:13 – 14:23 Luohe West
• 14:57 – 15:00 Zhengzhou East
• 15:31 – 15:33 Hebi East
• 16:00 – 16:20 Handan East
• 16:59 – 17:02 Shijiazhuang
• 17:38 – 17:40 Baoding East
• 18:21 – 18:21 Beijing West

G79 from Beijing West to Guangzhou South, 07h59m, 264 km/h
• 10:00 – 10:00 Beijing West
• 11:07 – 11:09 Shijiazhuang
• 12:30 – 12:33 Zhengzhou East
• 14:17 – 14:20 Wuhan
• 15:38 – 15:41 Changsha South
• 17:59 – 17:59 Guangzhou South

G80 from Guangzhou South to Beijing West, 07h59m, 264 km/h
• 10:00 – 10:00 Guangzhou South
• 12:17 – 12:20 Changsha South
• 13:38 – 13:41 Wuhan
• 15:26 – 15:29 Zhengzhou East
• 16:50 – 16:52 Shijiazhuang
• 17:59 – 17:59 Beijing West


----------



## Pansori

^^
Good stuff there. Is this the official schedule?

Is the G79/G80 the fastest service?


----------



## hkskyline

8 hours is a bit of a stretch for a train ride. I'd rather fly for 3.5 hours and waste 2 hours pre-flight and an hour after. Even then, I still save quite a bit of time flying.


----------



## Pansori

hkskyline said:


> 8 hours is a bit of a stretch for a train ride. I'd rather fly for 3.5 hours and waste 2 hours pre-flight and an hour after. Even then, I still save quite a bit of time flying.


I'd rather relax and browse internet for 8 hours than sit like a sardine in an economy class of 737/A320 with no Internet or sights behind the window.


----------



## yaohua2000

Pansori said:


> ^^
> Good stuff there. Is this the official schedule?
> 
> Is the G79/G80 the fastest service?


Yes. And there is much more at: http://pan.baidu.com/share/link?shareid=157677&uk=940615312 , decompress password = "1q2w3e4r.rar"


----------



## greenlion

Shijiazhuang Station


----------



## greenlion

download Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Wuhan-Guangzhou-Senzhen HSR timetable

http://bbs.railcn.net/thread-1007704-1-1.html


----------



## hmmwv

hkskyline said:


> 8 hours is a bit of a stretch for a train ride. I'd rather fly for 3.5 hours and waste 2 hours pre-flight and an hour after. Even then, I still save quite a bit of time flying.


8 hours will be longer than flying, but probably more comfortable for people who can spare the additional two hours. I don't have to worry about potential delays, which happen quite often, or turbulence, or era poping  The seats are more comfortable, you can walk to the dining car and eat or chill. You can even be a inconsiderate a** and talk on the phone really loud.


----------



## laojang

hmmwv said:


> 8 hours will be longer than flying, but probably more comfortable for people who can spare the additional two hours. I don't have to worry about potential delays, which happen quite often, or turbulence, or era poping  The seats are more comfortable, you can walk to the dining car and eat or chill. You can even be a inconsiderate a** and talk on the phone really loud.


There is no official announcement yet. Assuming 8 hours is right, then
perhaps it will be cut down further after a new RW minister takes over.
Hopefully in a several years, a maglev line is built, which will make the travel
time (around 4 hours) really competitive.

Laojang


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Beijing-Xian*

Has a schedule for Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Xian also become known?


----------



## hmmwv

laojang said:


> There is no official announcement yet. Assuming 8 hours is right, then
> perhaps it will be cut down further after a new RW minister takes over.
> Hopefully in a several years, a maglev line is built, which will make the travel
> time (around 4 hours) really competitive.
> 
> Laojang


With the current 350km/h lines capable of 380km/h service, once that becomes a reality (after 2015, at least), then the travel time may be cut down to less than 7 hours.


----------



## hmmwv

Hangzhou-Huangshan PDL has been approved and construction will start next year. 

287km, 250km/h, RMB 36.8 billion, total travel time reduce to less than 90 minutes.

http://zjnews.zjol.com.cn/05zjnews/system/2012/12/12/019012375.shtml?utm_source=weibolife


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> With the current 350km/h lines capable of 380km/h service, once that becomes a reality (after 2015, at least), then the travel time may be cut down to less than 7 hours.


8 hoursx300 km/h=2400 km (Beijing-Guangzhou South is 2105 km, but the stops and ceceleration/acceleration takes time).
7hoursx350 km/h=2450 km.

It seems that cutting the time to under 7 hours would not require 380 km/h service - 350 km/h could be enough.

Would it also be useful if 300 km/h trains could be run at night, so that 8...10 time spent on train would not be wasted at waking time?


----------



## Qtya

^^Where can I find a timetable for the Shenzhen-Guangzhou–Wuhan HSR line?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> 8 hoursx300 km/h=2400 km (Beijing-Guangzhou South is 2105 km, but the stops and ceceleration/acceleration takes time).
> 7hoursx350 km/h=2450 km.
> 
> It seems that cutting the time to under 7 hours would not require 380 km/h service - 350 km/h could be enough.
> 
> Would it also be useful if 300 km/h trains could be run at night, so that 8...10 time spent on train would not be wasted at waking time?


380km/h service will enable a travel time less than 6.5 hrs, that'd be sweet. I think it'll be entirely doable to have sleeper trains, but so far the only one (CRH1E) available is 250km/h. But if it's a direct train then it'll still make it in 8.5 hrs. IIRC those trains are mostly idling after the discontinuation of the Chengdu-Shanghai service.


----------



## big-dog

CRH in snow (Harbin-Dalian HSR photos)





































--weibo.com


----------



## big-dog

hmmwv said:


> Hangzhou-Huangshan PDL has been approved and construction will start next year.
> 
> 287km, 250km/h, RMB 36.8 billion, total travel time reduce to less than 90 minutes.
> 
> http://zjnews.zjol.com.cn/05zjnews/system/2012/12/12/019012375.shtml?utm_source=weibolife


This line will connect the famous tourist sites such as Mount Huang, Thousand Islands Lake, Fuchun River and Hangzhou. :cheers:


----------



## laojang

It is announced by CCTV that the Beijing-Guangzhou HSR will officially open December 26th, with the fastest trains covering the trip in 7 hours 59 minutes. 
There are also rumors that between December 21 and December 25, there will be "unofficial"
runs.

Cheers,
Laojang


----------



## yaohua2000

*Latest map*


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> Hangzhou-Huangshan PDL has been approved and construction will start next year.
> 
> 287km, 250km/h, RMB 36.8 billion, total travel time reduce to less than 90 minutes.


Besides the tourist destinations, it also seems to reach Hefei-Fuzhou high speed railway.


----------



## greenlion

长城网12月14日讯(张天虎)记者从北京铁路局获悉，为了迎接京广高铁的开通，北京铁路局日前公布了京广高铁列车运行图：

　　一、“G”字头动车组列车62对

　　1.北京西～深圳北1对：G71/G72；并套跑广州南～深圳北1对；

　　2.北京西～广州南2对：G81/G80、G82/79；

　　3.北京西～长沙南4对：G83/G506、G501/G504、G505/G84、G502/G503；

　　4.北京西～武汉(汉口)12对：G509/G520、G511/G522、G507/G86、G513/G524、G515/G526、G517/G528、G508/G85、G510/G519、G512/G521、G514/G523、G516/G525、G518/G527，经由京广高铁运行；

　　5.北京西～信阳东2对：G572/G573、G571/G574，经由京广高铁运行；

　　6.北京西～郑州东2对：G89、 G90、G564/G565，经由京广高铁运行；

　　7.北京西～郑州2对：G566/G561、G562、 G563，经由京广高铁运行；

　　8.北京西～安阳东1对：G567/G568；

　　9.北京西～邯郸东3对：G6731/G6734、G6732、G6735、G6733/G6736；

　　10.北京西～石家庄7对：G6705/G6710、G6703/G6714、G6702/G6709、G6706/G6711、G6713、G6704、G6701/G6708、G6707/G6712；

　　11.石家庄～广州南1对：G531/G532；

　　12.石家庄～邯郸东1对：G6751、G6752；

　　13.北京西～西安北10对：G651/G88、G653/G662、G655/G664、G657/G666、G659/G668、G652/G87、G654/G661、G656/G663、G658/G665、G660/G667，经由京广、郑西高铁运行；

　　14.北京西～太原9对：G91/G604、G609/G614、G603/G606、G605/G608、G611/G616、G615/G602、G601/G612、G92/G607、G610/G613，经由京广高铁、石太客专运行；

　　15.太原～广州南1对：G622/3、G624/1，太原～武汉2对：G632/3 、G638/5、G636/7、G634/1，太原～郑州东1对: G628/5、G626/7，经由京广高铁、石太客专运行。

　　二、“D”字头动车组列车7对

　　1.北京西～武汉1对：D2031/D2032，经由京广高铁运行；

　　2.北京西～郑州东1对：D2022、D2021，经由京广高铁运行；

　　3.北京西～太原3对：D2001/D2002、D2003/D2004、D2005/D2006，经由京广高铁、石太客专运行；

　　4.石家庄～太原2对：D2010/D2007、D2008/D2009，经由石太客专运行。


----------



## greenlion

记者从郑州铁路局获悉，该局公布了京广高铁及调整后的郑西高铁等线列车运行图。据悉，本月26日京广高铁北京至郑州段开通后，郑州局共开行动车组列车70对，其中京广本线35对、郑西本线9对、跨线26对。具体方案如下：



郑州局管内京广高铁本线开行方案

京广高铁本线共安排开行动车组列车35对。其中“G”字头动车组列车32对，“D”字头动车组3对，全部按300公里/时运行。

1.北京西—广州南2对，车次G79—G82。

2.北京西—长沙南4对，车次G83/4、G501—G506。

3.北京西—武汉、汉口13对。“G”字头动车组列车12对，车次G85/6、G507—G528；“D”字头动车组列车1对，车次D2031/2。

4.北京西—郑州（东）5对。“D”字头动车组列车4对，车次G89/90、G561—G566；“D”字头动车组列车1对，车次D2021/2。

5.北京西—信阳东2对，车次G571—G574。

6.北京西—安阳东1对，车次G567/8。

7.石家庄—广州南1对，车次G531/2。

8.郑州（东）—广州南5对，车次G93/4、G541—G548。

9.郑州—武汉1对，车次G641/2。

10.郑州东—信阳东1对，车次D2023/4。



郑州局管内跨石太客专开行方案

跨石太客专开行4对，均为“G”字头列车。

1.太原—广州南1对，车次G624/1 G622/3。

2.太原—武汉2对，车次G634/1 G632/3、G638/5 G636/7。

3.太原—郑州东1对，车次G628/5 G626/7。



郑州局管内跨广深高铁开行方案

跨广深高铁开行5对，均为“G”字头列车。

1.北京西—深圳北1对，车次G71/2。

2.郑州东—深圳北2对，车次G73—G76。

3.西安北—深圳北2对，车次G824/1 G822/3、G828/5 G826/7。



郑西高铁开行方案

郑西高铁安排动车组列车28对。其中“G”字头25对，均按300公里/时运行，“D”字头动车组3对，均按250公里/时运行。

1.北京西—西安北10对，车次G87/8、G651—G668。

2.西安北—广州南5对，车次G98/5 G96/7、G831—G846。

3.西安北—武汉1对，车次G858/5 G856/7。

4.西安北—长沙南1对，车次G854/1 G852/3。

5.西安北—深圳北2对，车次G824/1 G822/3、G828/5 G826/7。

6.郑州（东）—西安北9对。其中：时速300km动车组列车6对，车次G2001—G2012，时速250km动车组列车3对，车次D1001—D1006。


----------



## greenlion

京广高铁全线开通后，郑西高铁将实行新的列车运行图，共安排动车组列车30对，其中：直通动车组列车28对，包括“G”字头25对和“D”字头3对；管内动车组列车2对，均为“D”字头。

直通动车组列车28对具体开行情况是：

①西安北～北京西高铁动车组列车10对：由西安局担当5对，北京局担当5对。经由郑西、京广高铁运行，全程运行最短时间为4小时40分。具体为：G652/G87次、G654/ G661次、G656/ G663次、G658/G665次、G660/G667次、G88 /G651次、G662/ G653次、G664/ G655次、G666/G657次、G668/G659次。

②西安北～深圳北高铁动车组列车2对：由西安局担当1对，广铁集团担当1对，具体为：G824/1 G826/7次、G828/5 G822/3次。

③西安北～广州南高铁动车组列车5对：由西安局担当3对，广铁集团担当2对，具体为：G98/5 G832/3次、G834/1 G96/7次、G838/5 G836/7次、G842/39 G840/1次、G846/3 G844/5次。

④西安北～长沙南高铁动车组列车1对：由广铁集团担当，具体为：G854/1 G852/3次。

⑤西安北～武汉高铁动车组列车1对：由武汉局担当，具体为：G858/5 G856/7次。

⑥西安北～郑州（东）高铁动车组列车9对：由西安局担当4.5对，具体为：郑州—西安北 G2001 次，西安北～郑州 G2006/G2007次，G2012/G2011次，G2004/G2005次，G2010/G2009 次。郑州局担当4.5对，具体为：西安北～郑州东 G2002/3次，西安北—郑州 G2008次，郑州～西安北 D1001/6次、D1003/4 次、郑州东～西安北D1005/2次。

管内动车组列车2对具体开行情况是：西安北～延安列车2对：D5090/89次、D5092/1次。


----------



## greenlion

据广铁集团客运部门介绍，武广、广深港高铁调图后，共安排开行动车组列车117对，其中直通动车组列车68对，管内动车组列车列车49对。各区段对数为：武汉～岳阳东间68对，岳阳东～长沙南间70对，长沙南～广州南间89对，广州南～深圳北间48对。 

直通动车组列车68对

1、北京西～深圳北1对，车次：G71/2。这是我国目前运行里程最远的高铁列车，行驶距离超过3000公里。 

2、西安北～深圳北2对，车次：G824/1 G822/3、G828/5 G826/7。

3、郑州东～深圳北2对，车次：G73～G76。

4、武汉～深圳北10对，车次：G77/8、G1001～G1018。

5、北京西～广州南2对，车次：G79～G82。

6、西安北～广州南5对，车次：G98/5 G96/7、G831～G846。

7、太原～广州南1对，车次：G624/1 G622/3。

8、石家庄～广州南1对，车次：G531/2。

9、郑州（东）～广州南5对，车次：G93/4、G541～G548。

10、信阳东～广州南2对，车次：G551～G554。

11、武汉～广州南32对（含“D”字头2对），车次：G1101～G1160、D2101～D2104。 

12、北京西～长沙南4对，车次：G83/4、G501～G506。

13、西安北～长沙南1对，车次：G854/1 G852/3。

管内动车组列车49对

1、长沙南～深圳北10对，车次：G6001～G6020。

2、广州南～深圳北23对，车次：G6201～G6246。

3 、岳阳东～广州南2对，车次：G6131～G6134。

4、长沙南～广州南14对（含“D”字头2对），车次：G6101～G6124、D7801～D7804。


----------



## greenlion

Trainsets will be serving in Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Wuhan-Guangzhou-Shenzhen HSR

北京局使用CRH380BL型动车组6组，CRH380AL型动车组12组，CRH380A型动车组10组。
太原局使用CRH5A型动车组4组。
郑州局使用CRH380AL型动车组13组
西安局使用CRH380AL型动车组9组，CRH2C型动车组8组
武汉局使用CRH380AL型动车组22组，CRH2C型动车组18组
上海局使用CRH380BL型动车组6组，CRH380AL型动车组11组
广铁集团使用CRH380BL型动车组15组，CRH3C型动车组45组


----------



## hmmwv

Seems that the previously leaked schedule is largely accurate, it's interesting to see Zhengzhou railway bureau opt for running 300km/h D trains.


----------



## AlexNL

Do CRH trains offer features like WiFi and power sockets on board the trains? If they do, what is the price and quality of these features?


----------



## big-dog

Power socket on the train is convenient but I don't think they provide wifi, I was using my 3G to surf on the train.


----------



## Heludin

FM 2258 said:


> I'm not too sure about the electromagnetic radiation pollution either, I remember people saying the same thing about high voltage power lines but I'm not sure what those studies produced.


I used to live in San Diego, California, for some reason even though there are no conclusive studies about this issue, people don't want to live near HVPL, specially down wind. There's also this talk all over the internet from many sources(none scientific) warning of the potential effects from high voltage power lines, it creates fear.


----------



## Heludin

big-dog said:


> Power socket on the train is convenient but I don't think they provide wifi, I was using my 3G to surf on the train.


Wouldn't be nice to be able to surf while seating for hours to your destination? Too bad it's not even an option.


----------



## Heludin

dodge321 said:


> A CNY 200 fine? It should have been 10 times that! In HK eating and drinking on the metro can carry penalty of HKD 5,000, and eating and drinking in no way is a safety hazard. There really need to be much more severe fines and penalties for smoking and eating & drinking where not allowed as well as spitting and littering.
> 
> [Rant\]
> 
> (But seriously...)


+1 I totally agree on that.


----------



## Heludin

big-dog said:


> In ten days of Harbin-Dalian HSR opening, the long distance bus fare along the line has dropped up to 30%.
> 
> source


Someone will take a plunge when the whole system becomes fully operational


----------



## hmmwv

Heludin said:


> Wouldn't be nice to be able to surf while seating for hours to your destination? Too bad it's not even an option.


Most people do it on their smartphone anyway, or tether their tablets/laptops to the smartphone. Charging people for WIFI probably won't be that popular.


----------



## Pansori

big-dog said:


> Power socket on the train is convenient but I don't think they provide wifi, I was using my 3G to surf on the train.


On the Shanghai-Hangzhou train there were at least two Wi-fi networks to choose from. I could connect to them but Internet didn't work. I'm not sure why they were there and if it was a temporary connectivity issue or they were intended for a purpose other than public use. The networks were named CRH380-something.


----------



## mrmoopt

In train communications use only (like for CB radios)?


----------



## hmmwv

^^Nope train radio don't run on Wifi's 2.4 or 5Ghz frequency, nor is CTCS which is GSM based. It's probably for the first class and dinning car where you have to pay to get access.


----------



## :jax:

hmmwv said:


> Most people do it on their smartphone anyway, or tether their tablets/laptops to the smartphone. Charging people for WIFI probably won't be that popular.


If there is competition WiFi tends to become free. The one airline with WiFi I have used (Norwegian), most rail connections are free, all bus lines are free , there were some for a charge, but not any more.

It makes no sense to invest in the necessary infrastructure if few people are using it. Better use it as a competitive advantage. 

Norwegian is the first I know of doing the next logical step, testing an inflight entertainment system over WiFi, streaming movies and the rest to your own devices. It didn't work with my Android tablet though. 

If CRH doesn't do it, they risk competing airlines to do so, reversing the traditional train vs plane argument, with train having the disadvantage.


----------



## hmmwv

^^ I agree, if there are competition then they should provide free WIFI as a way to attract passengers. However I don't think any Chinese airlines offer inflight WIFI, let along a free one. One advantage HSR has over flying in China is allowing people to continue to make phone calls or surf the internet on their smart phones or tablets.


----------



## Pansori

It's true about the smartphones. If you're living in a country where you have your mobile phone with free or cheap Internet access the whole wi-fi argument is irrelevant (for most part). It is important, however, for those who may be not using mobile internet or foreigners who don't have local mobile phone number. Installing wi-fi on trains is not expansive and not complicated from a technological point of view. It takes a wi-fi router connected to a mobile signal receiver which will use mobile internet and transfer it over wi-fi for passengers to use on their wi-fi devices. You can even make one using 'household' conditions: a router and a mobile phone/dongle with USB cable. As it was said, it could be a competitive advantage and it's really surprising it's still not working on CRH trains yet. They should do it asap.


----------



## phoenixboi08

Ture, although China's Telecom's still don't have a very extensive 4G/LTE network yet (the 3G is still a little sluggish) so WiFi still makes excellent business sense. 

I'm shocked that they haven't instituted the similar entertainment systems that you see on planes. THAT would be awesome.
Or even having a "cinema" car.


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## hkskyline

I thought 3G data plans in China are super cheap, so there is less need for Wifi to begin with?


----------



## hmmwv

Pansori said:


> As it was said, it could be a competitive advantage and it's really surprising it's still not working on CRH trains yet. They should do it asap.


Well it's a competitive advantage CRH doesn't need right now, it's not like they are struggling with ridership. Maybe in the future when some other means of transportation is actually competing with CRH then they will try those value added services.



phoenixboi08 said:


> I'm shocked that they haven't instituted the similar entertainment systems that you see on planes. THAT would be awesome.
> Or even having a "cinema" car.


Some do have TVs showing movies, but the problem is there is no headphone jacks on the seats so they blast the audio through the speakers, I was very annoyed once because I had to endure it the whole trip from Nanjing to Shanghai.



hkskyline said:


> I thought 3G data plans in China are super cheap, so there is less need for Wifi to begin with?


It's not super cheap but pretty reasonable, and it's super easy to get a prepaid phone card with data plan, so most foreigner traveling to China will opt to get a local SIM.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> Well it's a competitive advantage CRH doesn't need right now, it's not like they are struggling with ridership. Maybe in the future when some other means of transportation is actually competing with CRH then they will try those value added services.


How are the existing 6+ hour G train routes like Beijing-Hangzhou and Xian-Shenzhen so far competing against flights?


----------



## FM 2258

BarbaricManchurian said:


> No.


No as in "it's not the first in China" or no for "This will not serve conventional trains as well as CRH"


----------



## binhai

FM 2258 said:


> No as in "it's not the first in China" or no for "This will not serve conventional trains as well as CRH"


The former.


----------



## dodge321

Travel time between Xi'an and Beijing will be reduced to 4:40 after December 26. Fastest train makes only 1 stop, at Zhengzhou East. Pretty sweet!


----------



## TheZoolooMaster

I heard on the news that the completion/opening of the Beijing-Guangzhou line was celebrated today (22nd). Is this true, or is it in fact still slated for Boxing Day?


----------



## big-dog

*12.22 Beijing-Guangzhou HSR opens to media*

8-hour experience 










--weibo


----------



## Pansori

Thanks for posting the photos big-dog. Now waiting for the official oipening on the 26th.

Also in one of the videos it is shown that the train is going at 310km/h. I wonder what is the actual 'hard' limit of the speed where it is supposedly limited to 300km/h.


----------



## skyridgeline

big-dog said:


> *12.22 Beijing-Guangzhou HSR opens to media*
> 
> 8-hour experience
> 
> ...
> 
> --weibo


Those escalators looked scary to ride on..


----------



## :jax:

skyridgeline said:


> Those escalators looked scary to ride on..


Fortunately they are not high-speed escalators...


----------



## stoneybee

big-dog said:


> *12.22 Beijing-Guangzhou HSR opens to media*
> 
> 8-hour experience
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --weibo


I don't think there are any so called hard limit or system generated "hard stop" to the speed limit. I have ridden a lot of CRH trains that exceeded the "300 km" limit for a period of time. Some of them for more than 10 minutes.


----------



## FM 2258

Can't wait for these high speed limits to be over....


----------



## Pansori

stoneybee said:


> I don't think there are any so called hard limit or system generated "hard stop" to the speed limit. I have ridden a lot of CRH trains that exceeded the "300 km" limit for a period of time. Some of them for more than 10 minutes.


I'm sure there is some sort of hard limit or at least some strict and very clear rules regarding speed. It shouldn't necessarily mean automatic stop of the train or emergency brakes but perhaps alert the central headquarters and then start investigation or discipline the train driver. Violation of a hard established speed limit in railways (let alone high speed ones) is a serious misconduct and a safety issue. Therefore it looks like the present limit of 300km/h is very much a 'soft' limit which can be ignored in many cases as shown in this case and many other cases where trains run well over 300km/h. I thought the deviation from the known limit was 5km/h or so but now we see that it is at least 10km/h. Could it be more than that?

Does anyone have more knowledge of this?


----------



## yaohua2000

The hard limit is 315 km/h on Beijing–Shanghai Line. The onboard software would auto brake the train if the driver tried to hit the limit. And the driver himself would also risk being fired by Mr. Sheng Gaozu in this case.


----------



## Pansori

^^
Thanks fir explaining. That makes good sense. Although I wonder when are they going to increase the limits altogether? There was some talk about 320km/h recently but nothing since then.


----------



## laojang

Here is a short clip in Chinese on the demonstration run for the media from Guanzhou to Beijing 
in 8 hours, starting +20 degree C ending at -10 degree C. 

http://www.56.com/redian/MTIwOTI4Mw/ODI0OTkyNjM.html

Laojang


----------



## foxmulder

laojang said:


> in 8 hours, starting +20 degree C ending at -10 degree C.
> 
> Laojang


That's cool


----------



## Peloso

foxmulder said:


> That's cool


Yup. Bordering on cold :lol:


----------



## China Hand

hmmwv said:


> CRH is steadily grabbing more passengers from the airline industry that the airlines are forced to slash prices to compete, CRH doesn't need to provide more onboard services to keep the trains full right now, what they need is more train so the damn tickets are not that hard to get. During normal hours in weekdays it seems to me that everyone is riding it now that I can no longer just walk in and expect to be able to find a seat on the next train.


I can still walk on from Xian to Zhengzhou to Wuhan, and in SZX and CAN on the way back.

Local flights to SZX are very low now. 1000 Yuan round trip, there and back. This goes up only for CNY week. Xian to SZX is 1000 to 1300 r/t to fly.

That's much cheaper than taking the train (1500-1800 r/t) and much faster. But, again, if you like leg room then the train cannot be beat.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> That's much cheaper than taking the train, and much faster. But, again, if you like leg room then the train cannot be beat.


You could buy first class tickets on plane. How does the legroom compare against CRH?

The railway is to open today. Have the ticket prices been disclosed for, say, Shenzhen-Beijing?


----------



## hmmwv

coth said:


> It doesn't really matter whatever it's -10 or -20. Unless it just for a first winter just to be sure it works as intended to work.


Of course it matters, there is significant difference in terms of material's properties when temperature drops from -20 to -40. I think it's perfectly reasonable to run HSR at different speeds according to seasons. The line's design speed is 250km/h in the winter and 350km/h in the summer, but due to the nationwide speed reduction everything is artifically lowered by 50km/h.


----------



## hmmwv

China Hand said:


> I can still walk on from Xian to Zhengzhou to Wuhan, and in SZX and CAN on the way back.
> 
> Local flights to SZX are very low now. 1000 Yuan round trip, there and back. This goes up only for CNY week. Xian to SZX is 1000 to 1300 r/t to fly.
> 
> That's much cheaper than taking the train (1500-1800 r/t) and much faster. But, again, if you like leg room then the train cannot be beat.


Vast majority of the passengers on those trains don't ride the whole way anyway.


----------



## foxmulder

Another significant aspect of high speed network. 



> BEIJING, Dec. 26 (Xinhuanet) -- With the Spring Festival around the corner, many migrant workers are planning to go back home to celebrate with their families. Every year it’s hard to get a ticket. With the Beijing to Guangzhou high-speed rail coming to service, will the situation improve?
> 
> There are more migrant workers in Guangzhou than any other city in China. Its railway station has faced severe capacity problems.
> 
> 230，000 passengers use Guangzhou station each day during the travel peak. It’s normal capacity is only 40, 000. 32 million journeys are expected to be made here during the Spring Festival. And migrant workers have always found it extremely hard to buy a ticket.
> 
> Now, with the Beijing to Guangzhou high-speed rail coming to service, people say it’s much more easier for them to go back home during the Spring Festival.
> 
> Migrant worker in Guangzhou said, "In the past, it took more than 20 hours for me to go home. And it’s hard to buy tickets. Now booking tickets is very convenient. And if I get on the train in the morning, I can have dinner with my family in the afternoon."
> 
> The Beijing to Guangzhou high-speed rail will also help cargo transport.
> 
> Cargo delivery has always suffered significant delays to make way for passengers.
> 
> Li Zhiyong, Logistics Dep’t, Shaoguan Steel Company, said, "The railways have only met 40% of our company’s transport needs. We had to rely heavily on roads and highways."
> 
> This year, 33 trains will be used for cargo each day. *Annual cargo capacity is expected to reach around 88 million tons, five times the amount last year.*


----------



## big-dog

*12.26 Beijing-Guangzhou HSR opens for operation: First G801 train departs from Beijing West at 9am quietly*










Source


----------



## hmmwv

I wish I can see the larger version of these pics.











Workers struggle to repair the Beijing-Guangzhou railway washed away by flood in 1960.


----------



## hmmwv

Some more pictures from today's Beijing-Guangzhou HSR maiden voyage.

Beijing

















At Zhengzhou East









Over the Yellow River Bridge near Zhengzhou


----------



## hmmwv

The two spans of the Anqing Yangtze River Bridge was successfully joined on Dec 19th, it has the longest span for any four track suspension bridges in the world. It serves as a crucial river crossing point of the 257km Nanjing-Anqing ICL, which is set to open in July 2014.


----------



## hmmwv

Reference chart of models of trains used on Beijing-Guangzhou HSR.


----------



## hmmwv

Construction of the Zhengzhou-Xuzhou PDL officially started today without any ceremony, staff pledged to maintain schedule and quality control then proceeded to start their various duties.

The line is 361.9km long with a design speed of 350km/h, construction time frame is 48 months. It has no tunnels but over 90% of the line will be on viaducts.

http://finance.chinanews.com/cj/2012/12-26/4438892.shtml


----------



## Obuyama

Which will be next opened after Kwangchow-Peking? Who knows some info?
To Urumchi?


----------



## zjl625

hmmwv said:


> I wish I can see the larger version of these pics.
> 
> Larger pics.


----------



## hmmwv

Obuyama said:


> Which will be next opened after Kwangchow-Peking? Who knows some info?
> To Urumchi?


Nanjing-Hangzhou.


----------



## Sunfuns

BBC is reporting a major collapse in one of a soon to be opened HSR lines. Any extra info available about it already - how, why and for how long it will delay the works?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-17336130


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Beijing-Shenzhen:* 1 train daily. G71 takes 10:05 (8:00 to 18:05), the return G72 is 10:25 (7:56 to 18:21). The price is RMB 940 in second class, RMB 1483 in first class.
*Beijing-Guangzhou:* 3 trains daily. Starting with G71 (in Guangzhou 17:26), the fastest is the express G79 (trip time 7:59 from 10:00 to 17:59), with 4 stops (Shijiazhuang, Zhengzhou, Wuhan, Changsha), last is G81 (13:05 to 22:22). Price RMB 865/1383.
*Beijing-Changsha:* 7 G trains daily. Fastest G79 (5:38), total 2 expresses (the other, G83, is 9:00 to 14:40) and 3 milk runs terminating at Changsha (G501 to G505 taking 6:42 to 6:51). Price RMB 651 second class, RMB 1040 first class - but unlike Guangzhou trains, a VIP seat is offered at RMB 1237.
*Beijing-Wuhan:* seem to be 13 G trains. But what is G801, that seems to have zero headway with G83? The expresses take 4:17, milk trains 5:05 to 5:40. Wuhan terminating G trains are named G5xx, like the ones to Changsha. 
Price RMB 522 in second class, RMB 834 in first class, RMB 992 in VIP seat where offered. 
Also 4 D trains Beijing-Wuhan. D2031 covers the distance in 7:25, making 17 intermediate stops. Price RMB 381 in second class, RMB 608 in first class. The other 3 D trains, D121 to D125 take 10:07 to 10:13 and also make only 7 to 9 stops, but are cheaper, RMB 267 in second class and RMB 333 in first class.


----------



## Norge78

SunFuns 

Old news, March 2012!


And that day I wasn't even surprised to know that what happened was 
different from what was reported by BBC.


----------



## Sunfuns

Sorry, I didn't look at the date... It appeared today together with an article about Beijing-Guangzhou HSR opening so I assumed it's recent as well


----------



## Traceparts

Sunfuns said:


> BBC is reporting a major collapse in one of a soon to be opened HSR lines. Any extra info available about it already - how, why and for how long it will delay the works?
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-17336130


that's line collapsed by 2mm,it's aready opened.


----------



## China Hand

Traceparts said:


> That's line "collapsed" by 2mm, it's already opened.


That was a translation problem, the word was closer to 'sank', 'subsided' or 'settled'.

CRH lines have, no surprise, close tolerances. A rail bed can settle 2 or 4 mm before problems occur. That bed settled 2mm and the MOR decided to mobilise and get it re-graded asap.


----------



## phoenixboi08

Interesting. We always talk about prices being a huge determining factor in modal share, but never confidence. I'd be interested to see just _how_ common these views are? I'd hazard a guess that, for most travelers, it's convenience > confidence, no?

Also, the price is definitely low (in the context of China, I guess it's not), but I think a Boston - D.C. ticket on the Acela is closer to $150-170, right? 

I guess the logic is that, if you have high _volume_, you can set fares much lower than the actual cost.


----------



## China Hand

hmmwv said:


> Construction of the Zhengzhou-Xuzhou PDL officially started today without any ceremony, staff pledged to maintain schedule and quality control then proceeded to start their various duties.


This is THE major bottle neck of Eastbound Shanghai-bound traffic. In order to train to Shanghai one can CRH to Zhenghou and then one must wait for the only daily D-train that is always booked solid a week or more in advance, and travels at 'only' 200kph, or take an N, K, T or Z train. Or the sleeper bus. hno:

Currently easiest and cheapest to just hop on a plane from points west.

@hmmv,
Any updated word on the progress of the Xian-Datong PDL completion date? I hear rumours construction has stopped, but the sites appear to me to be finished with pylons, rail bed and safety railings. Next would be ballast-less and rail laying.


----------



## gramercy

what the hell is a milk train?


----------



## Obuyama

hmmwv said:


> Nanjing-Hangzhou.


Ok, that is small, if there will be more robust?


----------



## foxmulder

Obuyama said:


> Ok, that is small, if there will be more robust?


It is almost 300km. That's small?


----------



## Obuyama

foxmulder said:


> It is almost 300km. That's small?


So so... I am used such length: Kwangchow-Shenzam-Hong Kong & other
I meant like Peking-Shanghoi or some smaller. 500-1000 around..
Urumchi, Kummin, Fookchow, Chongking directions..


----------



## skytrax

Congrats China!


----------



## chornedsnorkack

gramercy said:


> what the hell is a milk train?


What I meant as "milk train" or "milk run" is multistop, non-express trains, as opposed to express trains.

Examples from the routes:
*Beijing-Xian: * 8 trains daily. 1 express G87 with a single stop at Zhengzhou (skipping even Shijiazhuang) takes 4:40, 14:00 to 18:40. The 7 milk trains, numbered G651 to G667, make 6 to 10 stops, travel time 5:27 to 5:58, leave 7:05 to 17:38 and arrive 12:48 to 23:05. Second class RMB 517, first class RMB 826, VIP seat RMB 983.
*Beijing-Zhengzhou: * 29 G trains daily. 1 nonstop (G87) to Xian covers the distance in 2:24, 4 single stop (Shijiazhuang) trains, G79, G83, G85 and G89 take between 2:30 and 2:34 and arrive 11:30 to 16:00. The 24 milk runs make 3 to 6 stops, take between 2:58 and 3:27. Second class RMB 310, first class RMB 496, VIP seat where offered RMB 596. 
Also 2 D trains daily - D2031 and D2021 make 10 and 11 stops respectively, take 4:44 and 4:58, and cost RMB 215 second class, RMB 343 in second class.
*Beijing-Shijiazhuang: * 48 G trains daily. 5 nonstops - the 4 expresses to Zhengzhou and also G91 to Taiyuan, take 1:07 for 281 km. The milk runs make 1 to 3 stops and take 1:19 to 1:33, leaving 7:00 to 22:03 and arriving 8:19 to 23:22. Price second class RMB 129, first class RMB 207.
Also 5 D trains daily: besides D2021 and D2031 to Zhengzhou and beyond, also D2001 to 2005. These make 2 to 5 intermediate stops and take 1:54 to 2:38. Price RMB 87 in second class, RMB 139 in first class.


----------



## China Hand

Obuyama said:


> So so... I am used such length: Kwangchow-Shenzam-Hong Kong & other
> I meant like Peking-Shanghoi or some smaller. 500-1000 around..
> Urumchi, Kummin, Fookchow, Chongking directions..


Many intercity lines of short distances are acting as CRH but on a local rail basis, major city as the hub.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#High-speed_intercity_Railway


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Obuyama said:


> I meant like Peking-Shanghoi or some smaller. 500-1000 around..
> Urumchi, Kummin, Fookchow, Chongking directions..


Beijing-Nanjing is 1023 km. It is served by 38 G trains taking between 3:39 and 4:24. Also by 5 daily D trains taking between 6:16 and 6:58. (The other 3 D trains travel nightly on slow speed railway).

Beijing-Shanghai is 1318 km via Nanjing. The 37 G trains via Nanjing take 4:48 to 5:38. The 4 daily D trains take between 8:07 and 9:08.

Beijing-Hangzhou G and D trains now go by detour via Shanghai - the detour via Xuancheng is on slow speed lines. The 7 G trains take between 6:18 and 6:40, and cover 1487 km - 464 km Nanjing-Hangzhou via Shanghai. The 1 D train D365 goes extra 15 km to Hangzhou South, and takes 9:41.

D365 goes on to slow speed railway Hangzhou-Ningbo, and then to 250 km/h railway Ningbo-Fuzhou. 

The 2223 km train D365 is still the longest high speed train, for Beijing-Longhua actual distance is said to be just 2206 km. And neither the 10:05 trip time of G71 nor the 10:25 trip time of G72 comes even close to the 15:10 trip time of D365, let alone 15:31 trip time of D366.

When Nanjing-Hangzhou high speed railway shall open, Hangzhou shall be closer to Beijing than Shanghai, at just 1276 km away. How many trains daily shall connect Beijing and Hangzhou under 5 hours? And shall any G trains continue past Hangzhou to 250 km/h lines to Fuzhou and beyond, like Xiamen and Longyan?

Is it by now known which year shall Nanjing-Hangzhou high speed railway open - in Dragon Year or in Snake Year?


----------



## coth

hmmwv said:


> Of course it matters, there is significant difference in terms of material's properties when temperature drops from -20 to -40. I think it's perfectly reasonable to run HSR at different speeds according to seasons. The line's design speed is 250km/h in the winter and 350km/h in the summer, but due to the nationwide speed reduction everything is artifically lowered by 50km/h.


I didn't said anything about -40. It happens very very rare, once per several tens of years.

Minimum recorded temperature in Harbin is past 10 years was -26.
It was on 30 and 31 December 2009, 1 January 2010, 15 January 2011, 23 December 2012. All on nights.


----------



## coth

By the way, is there any GPX tracks from new Beijing - Guangzhou line?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Beijing-Taiyuan: * 9 G trains daily. 1 express, G91, makes single stop in Shijiazhuang, and takes 2:30. The milk trains, numbered G601 to G615, make 3 or 4 stops, take 2:45 or 2:53 and arrive from 10:20 to 23:13. Price second class RMB 195, first class RMB 286, VIP seat where offered RMB 365.
Also 3 D trains, D2001 to D2005, make 4 to 6 stops, take 3:23 to 3:26 and arrive 10:33 to 18:45. Price second class RMB 153, first class RMB 218.
*Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan: * 13 G trains daily. The nonstop, G91, takes 1:20. The others make single stop and take 1:22 to 1:25. Price second class RMB 66, first class RMB 79, VIP seat where offered RMB 119.
Also 5 D trains, the range D2001 to D2005 and also Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan trains D2007 and D2009. The 2 nonstops (D2003 and D2009) take 1:17, the others 1:22 or 1:23, with the single stop in Yangquan North. Price also second class RMB 66, first class RMB 79
*Taiyuan-Zhengzhou: * 4 G trains daily - G62x and G63x ranges. These make 3 or 5 stops and take 3:24 to 3:45. Price second class RMB 256 and first class RMB 382.


----------



## Obuyama

chornedsnorkack said:


> Beijing-Nanjing is 1023 km. It is served by 38 G trains taking between 3:39 and 4:24. Also by 5 daily D trains taking between 6:16 and 6:58. (The other 3 D trains travel nightly on slow speed railway).
> Beijing-Shanghai is 1318 km via Nanjing. The 37 G trains via Nanjing take 4:48 to 5:38. The 4 daily D trains take between 8:07 and 9:08.
> Beijing-Hangzhou G and D trains now go by detour via Shanghai - the detour via Xuancheng is on slow speed lines. The 7 G trains take between 6:18 and 6:40, and cover 1487 km - 464 km Nanjing-Hangzhou via Shanghai. The 1 D train D365 goes extra 15 km to Hangzhou South, and takes 9:41.
> D365 goes on to slow speed railway Hangzhou-Ningbo, and then to 250 km/h railway Ningbo-Fuzhou.
> The 2223 km train D365 is still the longest high speed train, for Beijing-Longhua actual distance is said to be just 2206 km. And neither the 10:05 trip time of G71 nor the 10:25 trip time of G72 comes even close to the 15:10 trip time of D365, let alone 15:31 trip time of D366.
> When Nanjing-Hangzhou high speed railway shall open, Hangzhou shall be closer to Beijing than Shanghai, at just 1276 km away. How many trains daily shall connect Beijing and Hangzhou under 5 hours? And shall any G trains continue past Hangzhou to 250 km/h lines to Fuzhou and beyond, like Xiamen and Longyan?
> Is it by now known which year shall Nanjing-Hangzhou high speed railway open - in Dragon Year or in Snake Year?


Most I know, as the plans from 2007 year.
I asked first on newcoming, but not opened, the second for distance 500-1000.
Cause, this data is not true: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China
They said Harbin-Peking was not opened, but I went by in 2011.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Taiyuan-Wuhan: * 3 G trains daily, making 7 to 10 stops and taking 5:34 to 6:12. Price second class RMB 482, first class RMB 744.
*Taiyuan-Changsha: * 1 G train G624 daily, making 10 stops and taking 7:12 from 10:46 to 17:58. Price second class RMB 618, first class RMB 961.
*Taiyuan-Guangzhou: * the 1 G train G624, making 14 stops and taking 10:02 from 10:46 to 20:48. Price RMB 854 second class, RMB 1338 first class.

Regarding connections from Shanghai inland - yes, they are poor.
Shanghai-Wuhan, via Nanjing and Hefei - 18 D trains, taking 4:47 to 6:33, and 7 slow trains.
Shanghai-Zhengzhou - 4 D trains daily, taking 6:52 to 7:03, and 13 slow trains.
Shanghai-Shijiazhuang - no D trains, 4 slow trains taking 11:01 to 19:12.
Shanghai-Xian - 1 D train D306 nightly, taking 10:40, and 9 slow trains.
Shanghai-Changsha - 1 D train D105 daily, taking 9:16, and 3 slow trains.
Shanghai-Guangzhou - no D trains, 4 slow trains taking 15:57 to 22:33.


----------



## yaohua2000

I was on the first train G801 yesterday:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

yaohua2000 said:


> I was on the first train G801 yesterday:


Can you explain the trains G801 and G83 then? They seem to leave Beijing together at 9:00, have zero headway till leaving Zhengzhou 11:33, then in Wuhan G83 is 1 minute behing, in Changsha 2 minute behind but G801 terminates, G83 continues to Guangzhou... what is the matter?


----------



## hmmwv

China Hand said:


> Any updated word on the progress of the Xian-Datong PDL completion date? I hear rumours construction has stopped, but the sites appear to me to be finished with pylons, rail bed and safety railings. Next would be ballast-less and rail laying.


AFAIK the construction is going on, haven't heard anything about completion date besides the original estimate of 2014.



Obuyama said:


> Ok, that is small, if there will be more robust?


Well, not even China can open 1000km HSR lines every few months. :lol:



coth said:


> I didn't said anything about -40. It happens very very rare, once per several tens of years.
> 
> Minimum recorded temperature in Harbin is past 10 years was -26.
> It was on 30 and 31 December 2009, 1 January 2010, 15 January 2011, 23 December 2012. All on nights.


Interesting, Harbin city's temperature already dropped to -32C yesterday, I assume in areas outside the city along the line the temperature may go even lower. Anyway I think this discussion is pretty pointless, the train have to go slower in winter due to low temperature, icing, wind gust and heavy snow so it has greater safety margin, I don't see anything wrong with that. You gave example of Sapsan, Harbin-Dalian's designed speed in winter is the same at 250km/h. Like every single HSR lines in China the maximum operating speed was artificially lowered by 50km/h for political and economics reasons.


----------



## yaohua2000

chornedsnorkack said:


> Can you explain the trains G801 and G83 then? They seem to leave Beijing together at 9:00, have zero headway till leaving Zhengzhou 11:33, then in Wuhan G83 is 1 minute behing, in Changsha 2 minute behind but G801 terminates, G83 continues to Guangzhou... what is the matter?


G801 runs only on the opening day.


----------



## Pansori

yaohua2000 said:


> G801 runs only on the opening day.


Any more pics or text?


----------



## oliver999

hmmwv said:


> AFAIK the construction is going on, haven't heard anything about completion date besides the original estimate of 2014.
> 
> 
> Well, not even China can open 1000km HSR lines every few months. :lol:
> 
> 
> Interesting, Harbin city's temperature already dropped to -32C yesterday.


Mo He city ,also in heilongjiang province, -43degree several days ago.


----------



## hmmwv

yaohua2000 said:


> I was on the first train G801 yesterday:


Beijing West sure looks crowded, overall how did you like the trip?


----------



## luhai

hmmwv said:


> Interesting, Harbin city's temperature already dropped to -32C yesterday, I assume in areas outside the city along the line the temperature may go even lower.


looks like the entire first week of January will be below -35C.... would not like to be there... And that's with global warming..


----------



## luhai

hmmwv said:


> Beijing West sure looks crowded, overall how did you like the trip?


I believe it's Beijing South. Beijing West is the station for the regular train service, and it doesn't have subway connection. (it does though, some a space reserved for a sub station for more than 20 years now. Rumor has it some military stuff underground have prevented a subway link that that station.)


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Guangzhou-Xian: * First morning train G832, 7:18 to 16:21. Price second class RMB 816. First morning train reachable from Zhuhai is G96, 9:00 to 16:40. Last train is G826, 13:42 to 22:33, connecting from D7622, 12:35 to 13:33. Is a 9 minute connection convenient and safe at Guangzhou South station?
Slow trains take 21:35 to 1:06:05. Price hard seat RMB 238, hard sleeper RMB 401-430, soft sleeper RMB 710-743
*Guangzhou-Shijiazhuang: * First morning train G622, 7:53 to 15:56. Price second class RMB 788. G80 express train, 10:00 to 16:50, connects from D7606, 8:15 to 9:18. Last train is G82, 12:43 to 20:54, connecting from D7618, 11:38 to 12:31.
Slow trains take 18:24 to 1:01:41. Price hard seat RMB 226, hard sleeper RMB 409, soft sleeper RMB 713, luxury soft sleeper RMB 1314.
*Guangzhou-Beijing: * First morning train G72, 8:30 to 18:21. Price second class RMB 865. The G80 express train arrives 17:59. Last train G82 arrives 22:23.
Slow trains take 20:39 to 1:05:10. Price hard seat RMB 253, hard sleeper RMB 428-458, soft sleeper RMB 752-786, deluxe soft sleeper RMB 1385-1447. 
*Guangzhou-Taiyuan: * The only G train, G622, travels 7:53 to 17:41, and is therefore unreachable from Zhuhai. Price second class RMB 854. There is only one slow train K238/K239, travelling 1:10:36 over two nights, from 20:05 till 6:41. Price hard seat RMB 251, hard sleeper RMB 426-456, soft sleeper RMB 738-773.


----------



## Sunfuns

Are HSR lines shut at night because of maintenance or just because there would be no demand? I guess appropriate rolling stock for it doesn't exist at the moment, but the new Beijing-Guangzhou line would be suitable for a high speed sleeper train taking 10-12 h. It could presumably take some part of the business market (possibility to be in the office at the other end at 8 am) and would be popular with tourists whishing to go from North China to South or vice versa with minimum time wasted for travel.


----------



## gdolniak

Qtya said:


> Could someone help me out?
> 
> If I land at HKG at 20:45 which is the easyest (and / or cheapest) way to get to Guangzhou South Railway Station, and in your opinion which is the first train bound for Wuhan I could catch?


Why not go to Wuhan from Shenzhen North Station? Get to Lok Ma Chau MTR station on Hong Kong side, cross the border, and then from there you have a direct subway to Shenzhen North Station with plenty of trains either to Guangzhou South or directly to Wuhan.


----------



## Gaeus

* 

China Opens Longest High-Speed Rail Line*

​ 








_
European Pressphoto Agency
China’s high-speed trains at a maintenance area in Wuhan. _
​ 
*By KEITH BRADSHER*

*Published: December 26, 2012 *​ 
HONG KONG — China began service Wednesday morning on the world’s longest high-speed rail line, covering a distance in eight hours that is about equal to that from New York to Key West, Fla., or from London across Europe to Belgrade, Serbia. 

Trains traveling 300 kilometers, or 186 miles, an hour, began regular service between Beijing and Guangzhou, the main metropolis in southeastern China. Older trains still in service on a parallel rail line take 21 hours; Amtrak trains from New York to Miami, a shorter distance, still take nearly 30 hours. 

Completion of the Beijing-Guangzhou route — roughly 1,200 miles — is the latest sign that China has resumed rapid construction on one of the world’s largest and most ambitious infrastructure projects, a network of four north-south routes and four east-west routes that span the country. 

Lavish spending on the project has helped jump-start the Chinese economy twice: in 2009, during the global financial crisis, and again this autumn, after a brief but sharp economic slowdown over the summer. 

The hiring of as many as 100,000 workers for each line has kept a lid on unemployment as private-sector construction has slowed because of limits on real estate speculation. The national network has helped to reduce air pollution in Chinese cities and helped to curb demand for imported diesel fuel by freeing capacity on older rail lines for goods to be carried by freight trains instead of heavily polluting, costlier trucks. 

But the high-speed rail system has also been controversial in China. Debt to finance the construction has reached nearly 4 trillion renminbi, or $640 billion, making it one of the most visible reasons total debt has been surging as a share of economic output in China, and is approaching levels in the West. 

Each passenger car taken off the older, slower rail lines makes room for three freight cars because passenger trains have to move so quickly that they force freight trains to stop frequently. But although the high-speed trains have played a big role in allowing sharp increases in freight shipments, the Ministry of Railways has not yet figured out a way to charge large freight shippers, many of them politically influential state-owned enterprises, for part of the cost of the high-speed lines, which haul only passengers. 

The high-speed trains are also considerably more expensive than the heavily subsidized older passenger trains. A second-class seat on the new bullet trains from Beijing to Guangzhou costs 865 renminbi ($139) one way, compared with 426 renminbi ($68) for the cheapest bunk on one of the older trains, which also have narrow, uncomfortable seats for as little as 251 renminbi ($40). 

Worries about the high-speed network peaked in July 2011, when one high-speed train plowed into the back of another near Wenzhou in southeastern China, killing 40 people. 

A subsequent investigation blamed flawed signaling equipment for the crash. China had been operating high-speed trains at 350 kilometers an hour (about 218 m.ph.), and it cut the top speed to the current rate in response to that crash. 

The crash crystallized worries about the haste with which China has built its high-speed rail system. The first line, from Beijing to Tianjin, opened a week before the 2008 Olympics; a little more than four years later, the country now has 9,349 kilometers, or 5,809 miles, of  high-speed lines. 

China’s aviation system has a good international reputation for safety, and its occasional deadly crashes have not attracted nearly as much attention. Transportation safety experts attribute the public’s fascination with the Wenzhou crash partly to the novelty of the system and partly to a distrust among many Chinese of what is perceived as a homegrown technology, in contrast with the Boeing and Airbus jets flown by Chinese airlines. 

Japanese rail executives have complained, however, that the Chinese technology is mostly copied from them, an accusation that Chinese rail executives have strenuously denied. 

The main alternative to trains for most Chinese lies in the country’s roads, which have a grim reputation by international standards. Periodic crashes of intercity buses kill dozens of people at a time, while crashes of private cars are frequent in a country where four-fifths of new cars are sold to first-time buyers, often with scant driving experience. 

Flights between Beijing and Guangzhou take about three hours and 15 minutes. But air travelers in China need to arrive at least an hour before a flight, compared with 20 minutes for high-speed trains, and the airports tend to be farther from the centers of cities than the high-speed train stations. 

Land acquisition is the toughest part of building high-speed rail lines in the West, because the tracks need to be almost perfectly straight, and it has been an issue in China as well. Although local and provincial governments have forced owners to sell land for the tracks themselves, there have been disputes over suddenly valuable land near rail stations, with the result that surprisingly few stores and other commercial venues have sprung up around some high-speed stations used by tens of thousands of travelers every day. 

Zhao Xiangfeng, a farmer in Henan Province, said a plan to build a mini-mall on his and six other farmers’ land near a station had been shelved indefinitely after he and three of the other farmers refused to lease the land for any price close to what the village leadership offered. He said he worried that local leaders might try stronger tactics on the farmers to force them to lease the land and revive the project. 

The 664-mile southern segment of the new high-speed rail line, from Guangzhou as far as Wuhan, has been open for nearly three years. The trains, which come every four to 12 minutes, are often packed, which could limit the number of seats available for travel to Beijing. 


 _Mia Li in Beijing contributed research._​ 

*A version of this article appeared in print on December 27, 2012, on page B1 of the New York edition with the headline: On Longest Bullet Train Line, Chinese Ride 1,200 Miles in 8 Hours.*​

*Source*​


----------



## coth

hmmwv said:


> Interesting, Harbin city's temperature already dropped to -32C yesterday


I was talking about half day averages. What you talking are daily extremes. Highest point was -23C and lowest -32C back in that day. In anyway - those are night/early morning extremes.



luhai said:


> looks like the entire first week of January will be below -35C.... would not like to be there... And that's with global warming..


Summer becomes hotter, winter becomes stronger. Same here, in Moscow.



So, guys, any GPX tracks from new lines?


----------



## Tommy Boy

When will USA WAKE UP and start building HSR across the country? America is falling behind the rest of the world and thats a fact unfortinately.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

Tommy Boy said:


> When will USA WAKE UP and start building HSR across the country? America is falling behind the rest of the world and thats a fact unfortinately.


NO NO NEVERMIND ALL THE ECONOMIC BENEFITS -- THAT THING IS GOING THROUGH MY BACKYARD AND IS REALLY EXPENSIVE! SMART USA WILL SAY NO TO THIS BOONDOGGLE BECAUSE ALL THIS WILL DO IS EAT TAXPAYER MONEYYY!

_Sarcasm at its finest._


----------



## Pansori

chornedsnorkack said:


> What is the top speed of D trains Zhuhai North-Guangzhou South? 250 km/h, 200 km/h or 160 km/h?


If we rely on information which is in Wikipedia the design speed is 200km/h. Therefore technically it should not count as HSR. But that is just a technicality I guess. 
I wonder why they didn't make it at least 250km/h though? Perhaps because due to the nature of the line (rather short line with many intermediate stops which would normally kill the average speed regardless of the maximum speed).


----------



## laojang

I don't know if it is posted already, here is a short video on the BJ-GZ run by the 
first commercial G train.

http://video.sina.com.cn/p/news/c/v/2012-12-26/174561957871.html

Laojang


----------



## skyridgeline

Tommy Boy said:


> When will USA WAKE UP and start building HSR across the country? America is falling behind the rest of the world and thats a fact unfortinately.


Not anytime soon. 'America' is not falling behind yet since most of the things are still working as expected. 



Silver Swordsman said:


> NO NO NEVERMIND ALL THE ECONOMIC BENEFITS -- THAT THING IS GOING THROUGH MY BACKYARD AND IS REALLY EXPENSIVE! SMART USA WILL SAY NO TO THIS BOONDOGGLE BECAUSE ALL THIS WILL DO IS EAT TAXPAYER MONEYYY!
> 
> _Sarcasm at its finest._


What and whose economic benefits? 

That's right! Not near my backyard. 

And it will be expensive is a certainty in 'America'.


----------



## dodge321

big-dog said:


> *12.26 Xi'an-Beijing G808 HSR starts operation*
> 
> With Beijing-Guangzhou HSR opening, Xi'an-Beijing HSR now only takes 3 hours 40 minutes to complete the trip.
> 
> by MOR


The shortest travel time between Xi'an and Beijing on HSR is 4 hours 40 mins. I wish it was 3 hours 40 mins :cheers:

It really does make travel between Xi'an and Beijing so much easier though. Before the best option was to take an 11-12 hour sleep train, which isn't that bad itself (as the train is quite comfortable).


----------



## hmmwv

Pansori said:


> If we rely on information which is in Wikipedia the design speed is 200km/h. Therefore technically it should not count as HSR. But that is just a technicality I guess.
> I wonder why they didn't make it at least 250km/h though? Perhaps because due to the nature of the line (rather short line with many intermediate stops which would normally kill the average speed regardless of the maximum speed).


Guangzhou-Zhuhai ICL is not a high speed line, it's an intercity line like what we see in operation or under construction in Shanghai, Nanjing, Wuhan, and Chengdu. It's essentially a commuter rail line, it's also where the first CRH6 train will serve.


----------



## hmmwv

big-dog said:


> More Beijing-Gangzhou HSR opening pictures
> 
> Wuhan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --sina.com


Not trying to nitpick but if the architecture is not a dead giveaway the station sign that says Zhengzhou East should be.:lol::lol::lol:

An awesome set of pictures, Thanks!


----------



## big-dog

^^ yes its Zhengzhou East. chornedsnorkack also pointed out the mistake.I didnt expect Zhengzhou East statio is as grand as Wuhan HSR Station.


----------



## FM 2258

hmmwv said:


> Guangzhou-Zhuhai ICL is not a high speed line, it's an intercity line like what we see in operation or under construction in Shanghai, Nanjing, Wuhan, and Chengdu. It's essentially a commuter rail line, it's also where the first CRH6 train will serve.


I thought they run CRH1 trains at 200km/h "high speed" 

It seems like there is confusion on what high speed is. From what I've read and what's burned into my head right now, 124+ mph (200+ km/h) is high speed.


----------



## laojang

skyridgeline said:


> Not anytime soon. 'America' is not falling behind yet since most of the things are still working as expected.
> 
> 
> 
> What and whose economic benefits?
> 
> That's right! Not near my backyard.
> 
> And it will be expensive is a certainty in 'America'.


Civilian infrastructures in the US are indeed falling behind. The airports, bridges, tall buildings, railways and roads used to be far ahead of the rest of the world. But now, as Skyscrapercity forumers, we all know that this is no longer true. IMHO, the main problem is that the US spends too much on the 
military. Taking away military spending, medicare/caid, there is hardly much left in the budget for those civilian things.

Laojang


----------



## Norge78

A milestone for China
A milestone for the World


----------



## :jax:

big-dog said:


> you are right. Now all Beijing's railway stations (Beijing Railway Station, Beijing West, Beijing South, Beijing North) are connected by subways.
> 
> A underground rail connection is being constructed between Beijing Railway Station and Beijing West. After competed Beijing Railway and Beijing West will be virtually one station.


Not quite. Beijing West may have had a metro station for a year, but it hasn't been connected with the rest of the system. Until later today, Beijing time, that is. Even then the connection isn't fast or convenient, with no direct metro lines, even with the proposed R-lines.

The tunnel will help for connecting Beijing West and Beijing Railway. Anyone knows the specs? However it will not improve the situation for the other high speed stations. Beijing Railway is supposed to get links with the airport(s), so at least that part of the system may be integrated.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> I wonder why they didn't make it at least 250km/h though? Perhaps because due to the nature of the line (rather short line with many intermediate stops which would normally kill the average speed regardless of the maximum speed).


Chengdu-Dujiangyan-Qingchengshan is 65 km, yet it has 220 km/h top speed and mixes some single stop trains (trip time 0:36) with trains of up to 4 intermediate stops (trip time up to 0:50). Changchun-Jilin, 111 km, comparable to Guangzhou-Zhuhai distance, has 250 km/h top speed (in Manchurian winter, too), and mixes nonstop trains (trip time 0:40) with trains making 1 intermediate stop (trip time 0:45). Many of these trains are direct trains originating beyond Changchun, like Harbin, Dalian or Beijing.


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> I thought they run CRH1 trains at 200km/h "high speed"
> 
> It seems like there is confusion on what high speed is. From what I've read and what's burned into my head right now, 124+ mph (200+ km/h) is high speed.


China accepts the international definition of high speed, that is 200km/h on upgraded existing lines and 250km/h on new build lines. Furthermore in Chinese only 300km/h or above G trains are called "HSR" while the rest CRH trains simply EMU.


----------



## Pansori

hmmwv said:


> China accepts the international definition of high speed, that is 200km/h on upgraded existing lines and 250km/h on new build lines. Furthermore in Chinese only 300km/h or above G trains are called "HSR" while the rest CRH trains simply EMU.


I remember the prerecorded onboard audio message in English on the the Shanghai-Hangzhou G train I was taking (it was CRH380B). It was something like "welcome onboard Harmony, the EMU train..."


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## big-dog

:jax: said:


> Not quite. Beijing West may have had a metro station for a year, but it hasn't been connected with the rest of the system. Until later today, Beijing time, that is. Even then the connection isn't fast or convenient, with no direct metro lines, even with the proposed R-lines.


In that sense yes, as of today Line 9 only connects with Fangshan Line. In a week's time Line 9 (and Beijing West) is supposed to be connected with Line 4, Line 6, Line 1, Line 10 and Fangshan Line.


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## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> In that sense yes, as of today Line 9 only connects with Fangshan Line. In a week's time Line 9 (and Beijing West) is supposed to be connected with Line 4, Line 6, Line 1, Line 10 and Fangshan Line.


Remember that Shijiazhuang Airport refunds the second class ticket price for any air passenger arriving by high speed train from Beijing or a few other stations.

On G6701, Shijiazhuang Airport can be reached in 1:17.

How many connections shall be needed this week to travel from Beijing West across the city to Beijing International Airport on the other side of the city? What would the trip time be? And which airport is therefore easier to reach from Beijing - the Beijing one or the Shijiazhuang one?


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## China Hand

Delete


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## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> The high speed railways shut for night. The last G train for Wuhan, G1178, shall have departed at 19:20.
> 
> Your options are:
> a) sleep on ground in Hong Kong or Guangzhou, catch first morning train. This is G1102, leaving 7:00, arriving 11:10.
> b) get to Guangzhou instead of Guangzhou East, get on slow speed overnight train, arrive next morning.
> T180, leaving 21:20, is probably too early to catch. Next is K437/K436, leaving Guangzhou 23:06, also stopping Dongguan East, leaving 21:46. But it is slow, arriving in Wuhan 11:26. It is passed by T38/T35, leaving Guangzhou 23:53, arriving in Wuhan 10:42.


It would be fastest to fly from HKG to WUH, but I am sure you wish to try the ZGT. Flights are 300 Euros r/t, 2 hours one way.

The Pearl River Delta is very very large and Guangzhou is a very large metropolitan area. It takes several hours by ground transportation to get from HKG to Guangzhou. Minimum one hour to get to Shenzhen to then take the CRH from Shenzhen to Guangzhou South in 35 minutes. Once there, though, the station is not nearby any hotels and taxis may be hard to find. Bus services in China tend to stop after 1800 or so.

So you won't be at the Guangzhou South Station until *at least* 2 hours after your flight lands. Possibly 4 hours later.

Fastest way for the CRH is to take the shuttle bus to Shenzhen, take the CRH to Guangzhou South and then get a hotel room nearby after you purchase your ticket for the first train the next day.

Get up at 0600, leave at 0700, you will arrive Wuhan by 1115 the next morning.

If you have never traveled in China before, keep in mind that once you get off a plane or fast CRH train, travel times can rise to near infinity. You can easily travel to Wuhan in 4 hours but then spend 6 hours traveling the last 250kms of your journey over local short haul buses to small, out of the way cities.

Until the Beijing-GZ line was finished I would go to Wuhan (60% of my trip) in 4 hours and then spend *18 HOURS* to travel the last 40% of my trip.


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## Sunfuns

18 hours??? Could you have traveled faster than that if you had a car waiting in Wuhan? The new HSR is really great and I've also read about thousands of kilometers of new highways being built, but evidently there is still a long way to go....

Living in Switzerland I could probably get to any point in Europe West of Russia in less than 12 h (except, perhaps, some remote islands or the far north).


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## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> How many connections shall be needed this week to travel from Beijing West across the city to Beijing International Airport on the other side of the city? What would the trip time be? And which airport is therefore easier to reach from Beijing - the Beijing one or the Shijiazhuang one?


Im afraid that's a time consuming trip. The best subway ride from Beijing West might be Line 9->Line 10->Airport line with 2 interchanges (see map below). It may take 1.5 hours. I wonder if there's airport shuttle from Beijing West to Airport (bus is better when you have luggage to carry). I was taking airport shuttle from Beijing South to airport and it's quite cheap and convenient.

Beijing subway map


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## big-dog

Beijing-Guangzhou HSR










by 中华火车迷部落


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## foxmulder

Awesome picture. 

:dance:


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## hmmwv

^^ Second that, right click to save as wallpaper!


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## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> If you have never traveled in China before, keep in mind that once you get off a plane or fast CRH train, travel times can rise to near infinity. You can easily travel to Wuhan in 4 hours but then spend 6 hours traveling the last 250kms of your journey over local short haul buses to small, out of the way cities.
> 
> Until the Beijing-GZ line was finished I would go to Wuhan (60% of my trip) in 4 hours and then spend *18 HOURS* to travel the last 40% of my trip.


It follows that what China really needs is a dense network of medium speed railways with frequent stops, to reach the countryside between the 350 km/h lines and the outskirts of large cities. Not 300+ km/h - the straight lines are too expensive to build everywhere and they cannot reach such speed between frequent stops - rather 160-200 km/h, and good acceleration.

In which months of 2013 shall the Wuhan-Huangshi, Wuhan-Xianning and Wuhan-Huangshi railways open?


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## hhzz

渝利铁路明年建成通车 重庆10小时到上海
Is it possible to take only 10 hours to travel from shanghai to chongqing by train next year?Since the Shanghai-Wuhan-Chengdu HSR is so low to compare with Beijing-Guangzhou HSR when comes to their designed speed!!


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## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> 渝利铁路明年建成通车 重庆10小时到上海
> Is it possible to take only 10 hours to travel from shanghai to chongqing by train next year?Since the Shanghai-Wuhan-Chengdu HSR is so low to compare with Beijing-Guangzhou HSR when comes to their designed speed!!


No.

The fastest train Shanghai-Yichang is D3006/D3007, which takes 7:04, with 3 stops (Wuhan, and the others are oddly Macheng and Jingzhou, not Nanjing and Hefei).

Although Yichang-Lichuan-Wanzhou railway has been built, it is slow in the Three Gorges mountains, and no D trains travel there. The fastest train Yichang-Lichuan is T6716/6717, which takes 2:56.

Even when Lichuan-Chongqing high speed railway is opened, Lichuan-Shanghai alone should take at least 10 hours and therefore Chongqing-Shanghai in 10 hours shall remain impossible.

In which month shall Chongqing-Lichuan high speed railway open?


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## hhzz

chornedsnorkack said:


> In which month shall Chongqing-Lichuan high speed railway open?


It doesnot mention in the news.The shanghai-wuhan section is too slow compared to other HSR.


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## China Hand

Sunfuns said:


> 18 hours??? Could you have traveled faster than that if you had a car waiting in Wuhan? The new HSR is really great and I've also read about thousands of kilometers of new highways being built, but evidently there is still a long way to go....
> 
> Living in Switzerland I could probably get to any point in Europe West of Russia in less than 12 h (except, perhaps, some remote islands or the far north).


If I had a driver then it would have been 11 hours to travel the last 960kms. Things just take longer in China. The roads are crowded, you cannot drive faster than 110 kph, everyone stops all the time to eat, tolls, construction that is unannounced at best, detours that occur spontaneously, anything and everything.

Major cities have legendary traffic jams during peak hours that are unmatched in any other nation. You truly have no idea. Mexico City is easy compared to any of several score Chinese big cities. I have taken city buses that took 2 hours to traverse 11.5kms. That's *walking speed* and that's common.

Even though there are modern, 4/6/8 land freeways/tollways/highways as you see in Europe or North America or Japan, the avg speed is 90kph as the Chinese are relentless money savers. Drive slow to save fuel. Take non-tollways to save on tolls, etc. If you traveled with a group, they would find any reason to stop and eat and delay. They soak up huge amounts of time doing nothing. You cannot 'make good time' as you think of it and rive fast for long stretches without stopping. Something always delays you.

93 khp are what long haul seated, not sleeper, buses average during the day. So you would avg the same velocity but pay for gas, the car, the driver, his meals, and all tolls.

Really good example is that it is 6h10-40m from Zhengzhou to Guangzhou (1450 km) but if you take a shuttle or bus to get to Hong Kong from the Guangzhou South Station it will take you 2.75 or more hours in the massive traffic to travel the 130km to the border.

Now you know why we are so excited about CRH - you can actually GET SOMEWHERE without delays or nonsense.

When one lives in China and travels to just about any other nation, asides India, it feels empty. North America feels abandoned. Europe is decidedly UN crowded compared to China.


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## Sunfuns

Plenty of reasons to be excited about HSR that I understand! By the way 93 kph average for a long distance traffic is not that bad really. There are few places in Europe where more would be possible, but mostly it would be the same or even less. 960 km is just a very long distance for driving..

I have been to China (Beijing and nearby, 1995) and know a bit how crowded it could be. It was, however, a long time ago and in those days cars were few and it was mostly about bicycles and public transport. West China is fairly empty, though. 

By the way is it possible now for Chinese citizens to rent a car to drive themselves? I know foreigners can't do that in China.


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## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> Really good example is that it is 6h10-40m from Zhengzhou to Guangzhou (1450 km)


Actually, it is 5:26-39 - with the 3 expresses (G93, G95, G79).

The other 15 are, yes, G81 6:02 and the rest 6:12 (G821) to 6:34 (G839).



China Hand said:


> but if you take a shuttle or bus to get to Hong Kong from the Guangzhou South Station it will take you 2.75 or more hours in the massive traffic to travel the 130km to the border.


Instead, you can take CRH, and end up in Shenzhen North, less than 10 km to the border.

Problem here: just 5 out of the 18 trains to Guangzhou continue to Shenzhen. And since none of the 3 expresses is among the 5 direct trains, Zhengzhou-Shenzhen takes 6:52 (G821) to 7:04 (G75).


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## China Hand

Sunfuns said:


> Plenty of reasons to be excited about HSR that I understand! By the way 93 kph average for a long distance traffic is not that bad really. There are few places in Europe where more would be possible, but mostly it would be the same or even less. 960 km is just a very long distance for driving.


Several times I have driven 1300kms in one day, at speeds of 130 to 140 kph, stopping twice for only 3o minutes each time. Took me 11 hours. That's a long day behind the wheel.

But that's North America. Montana, Wyoming and such.

Parts of the Freeway between Los Angeles and Phoenix I have traveled at 161 kph. Flat open road, visibility to the horizon, few vehicles. Put foot to floor and go. Done that 6 or more times.


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## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> Instead, you can take CRH, and end up in Shenzhen North, less than 10 km to the border.


My point was about time, traffic and very low avg transit speeds and my anecdote predates that line's operation.

It can be applied to any large city in China.


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## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> In which months of 2013 shall the Wuhan-Huangshi, Wuhan-Xianning and Wuhan-Huangshi railways open?


I think you mean Wuhan-Huangshi/Huanggang? It's over 95% completed but stuck on environmental impact study of a small section just outside Wuhan, where a residential complex was built illegally a few years ago thus making it too close to the railway line. They have been negotiating a way out of this but short of demolishing a building there seem to be no way to do it. The authority is too afraid to anger that many residents so the line sits idle for the time being.

Wuhan-Xianning is going very well, all infrastructure construction should be concluded in Feb, I assume after the Chinese New Year because otherwise they will have to get it done in mid Jan to allow migrate workers time to go home. Trial runs are set for May and commercial operation in mid summer.



chornedsnorkack said:


> In which month shall Chongqing-Lichuan high speed railway open?


Chongqing-Lichuan is not a high speed railway, it's a conventional China Railway Level 1 Trunk Line （国铁一级干线）that runs EMUs, conventional passengers trains, and freight. It's set to open before the end of 2013, so I assume it will follow other lines and have a conservative schedule of trial runs in Sept and commercial operation in Dec.



hhzz said:


> The shanghai-wuhan section is too slow compared to other HSR.


I agree, I hope they come to their senses and in the future upgrade that line to 350km/h.



Sunfuns said:


> I have been to China (Beijing and nearby, 1995) and know a bit how crowded it could be. It was, however, a long time ago and in those days cars were few and it was mostly about bicycles and public transport. West China is fairly empty, though.
> 
> By the way is it possible now for Chinese citizens to rent a car to drive themselves? I know foreigners can't do that in China.


Well I think the crowd in 1995 is not even comparable with today, just imagine half the bicycles are replaced with cars, public transport is just as crowded today. My advise is avoid travelling at rush hours at all cost, you will be stuck, either in traffic on the road or between two guys in a subway. 

There are tons of car rental outfit in China now and foreigners can get a rental as long as you have a foreign driver's license that's recognized in China, I believe US licenses are. China Auto Rental is the biggest domestic rental company, you can also go with established Western brands such as AVIS or Hertz.


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## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> My point was about time, traffic and very low avg transit speeds and my anecdote predates that line's operation.
> 
> It can be applied to any large city in China.


Yes, and since Pearl River delta has nowhere near enough CRH service to remove congestion from roads, it remains relevant.

2,75 hours for 130 km means 47 km/h average. Not bad in a city. What is the top speed on streets? 50 km/h?

For comparison, consider CRH services:
Guangzhou South - Shenzhen North (102 km) - 37 G trains daily
nonstops (6 daily) - 0:29 (average 211 km/h)
1 all-stop train daily - G6205, 3 stops (Qingcheng, Humen, Guangming) - 0:51 (average 120 km/h)
Guangzhou-Shenzhen (147 km) - 25 D trains daily
all make same 4 stops (Guangzhou East, Shilong, Dongguan, Zhangmutou)
travel time 1:31 to 1:44 (97 km/h to 85 km/h).
Guangzhou South - Zhuhai North (93 km) - 25 D trains daily
fastest D7601 (3 stops, 0:48, 116 km/h), slowest D7645 (8 stops, 1:13, 76 km/h).


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## sasalove

News on the new opening


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## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> 2,75 hours for 130 km means 47 km/h average. Not bad in a city. What is the top speed on streets? 50 km/h?


On the freeway? No, those speeds are terrible.

My long distance driving experience is North America and Europe.

Whilst the newer roads here APPEAR to be just like those, the cultural aspects mean that your effective avg speed is not 140kph but 80 or 90.

Since you save no time owning a car in China, and spend additional large sums of money on gas, tolls, the car, insurance and the Foreigner Liability Risk Premium, it makes sense to not have a car here. Unless you are a Director and a driver is part of your package.


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## zjl625

Beijing-Guangzhou HSR by 罗春晓 source









November 19th, 2012. Beijing.









December 8th, 2012. Beijing.









October 30th, 2012. Zhengzhou, Henan province.









November 11th, 2012. Luohe, Henan province.









November 13th, 2012. Xinyang, Henan province.









November 14th,2012. Xiaogan, Hubei province.









August 15th, 2010. Wuhan, Hubei province.









December 26th, 2009. Xianning, Hubei province.









Novemeber, 2009. Hengyang, Hunan province.









March 1st, 2010. Shaoguan, Guangdong province.









February 28th, 2010. Qingyuan, Guangdong province.


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## FM 2258

^^

Great pictures and my favorite CRH train!!! Definitely some rough terrain these lines seem to go through. 

China is really working hard to make sure public transport around the country is fast and efficient. I was able to move around the country efficiently back in 2010 before most of these CRH lines were in operation. I can only imagine how much better getting around will be now and into the future.


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## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> Since you save no time owning a car in China, and spend additional large sums of money on gas, tolls, the car, insurance and the Foreigner Liability Risk Premium, it makes sense to not have a car here. Unless you are a Director and a driver is part of your package.


And if the driver is free, why use him? A chauffeured limousine is no faster than the other cars stuck in the traffic, and no safer. All the director gets by hiring the chauffeur, in package or out of pocket, is get free of the work driving the car and be able to do something else on the back seat.

Do the Directors prefer buying first class and VIP tickets on CRH, and charging the tickets on the firm?


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## China Hand

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Great pictures and my favorite CRH train!!! Definitely some rough terrain these lines seem to go through.
> 
> China is really working hard to make sure public transport around the country is fast and efficient. I was able to move around the country efficiently back in 2010 before most of these CRH lines were in operation. I can only imagine how much better getting around will be now and into the future.


The line south of Changsha is especially picturesque. It really looks like a painting or post card most of the way to Guangzhou as the photos above show. I am certain this was quite intentional to appeal to tourism.


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## foxmulder

I liked the "December 8th, 2012. Beijing" one. 380A is so predominant in front of a washed background. Good photo.


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## hhzz

zjl625 said:


> Beijing-Guangzhou HSR by 罗春晓 source
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great picture.


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## FM 2258

China Hand said:


> The line south of Changsha is especially picturesque. It really looks like a painting or post card most of the way to Guangzhou as the photos above show. I am certain this was quite intentional to appeal to tourism.


I have to say that China is a beautiful country all over, I'd love to see this part of the line south of Changsha. Looks great. 




Question about the Beijing-Guangzhou G train...it looks like it starts at Beijing West, does it also run through Beijing South? For some reason I thought all the G trains would run from Beijing South. 

One day, hopefully, I'll come to truly understand what's going on with China's rail system. :cheers:


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## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> Question about the Beijing-Guangzhou G train...it looks like it starts at Beijing West, does it also run through Beijing South? For some reason I thought all the G trains would run from Beijing South.


Nope, not all G trains go to Beijing South. Beijing-Guangzhou and Beijing-Shanghai really don't share any tracks, but they are connected physically. There is a branch line connecting the two, but if you look at the map you'll see that both stations depart towards southwest and then the one to Guangzhou will take a slightly western turn while the one to Shanghai takes an eastern route. A train coming from Shanghai will not pass Beijing West, and a train from Guangzhou will not pass through Beijing South, this is just like Shanghai Station and Hongqiao. They probably did this so that Beijing South is not overloaded, the two stations are pretty close to each other, the straight line distance is only about 5 km, once a direct shuttle train is available between the two they will essentially become one station. Having going through both stations I have to say Beijing really should start thinking about either expanding South or build a new one.


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## big-dog

*12.31 Guangzhou-Zhuhai HSR opens*

First CRH train D7603 completes Guangzhou South to Zhuhai (Gongbei) trip in 68 minutes.


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## greenlion

hmmwv said:


> Nope, not all G trains go to Beijing South. Beijing-Guangzhou and Beijing-Shanghai really don't share any tracks, but they are connected physically. There is a branch line connecting the two, but if you look at the map you'll see that both stations depart towards southwest and then the one to Guangzhou will take a slightly western turn while the one to Shanghai takes an eastern route. A train coming from Shanghai will not pass Beijing West, and a train from Guangzhou will not pass through Beijing South, this is just like Shanghai Station and Hongqiao. They probably did this so that Beijing South is not overloaded, the two stations are pretty close to each other, the straight line distance is only about 5 km, once a direct shuttle train is available between the two they will essentially become one station. Having going through both stations I have to say Beijing really should start thinking about either expanding South or build a new one.


The plan of New Fengtai Station


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## FM 2258

hmmwv said:


> Nope, not all G trains go to Beijing South. Beijing-Guangzhou and Beijing-Shanghai really don't share any tracks, but they are connected physically. There is a branch line connecting the two, but if you look at the map you'll see that both stations depart towards southwest and then the one to Guangzhou will take a slightly western turn while the one to Shanghai takes an eastern route. A train coming from Shanghai will not pass Beijing West, and a train from Guangzhou will not pass through Beijing South, this is just like Shanghai Station and Hongqiao. They probably did this so that Beijing South is not overloaded, the two stations are pretty close to each other, the straight line distance is only about 5 km, once a direct shuttle train is available between the two they will essentially become one station. Having going through both stations I have to say Beijing really should start thinking about either expanding South or build a new one.


I see, Beijing West -> Guangzhou South, Beijing South -> Shanghai Hongqaio. 

I can also see how this works on the map. Good to see that not everyone needs to go to one station to take all trains south. What's the progress on this shuttle train? Do new tracks need to be laid for it? 




big-dog said:


> *12.31 Guangzhou-Zhuhai HSR opens*
> 
> First CRH train D7603 completes Guangzhou South to Zhuhai (Gongbei) trip in 68 minutes.


What's the distance between the two stations and how long does the non-stop train take? Wikipedia shows a value of 116 for distance but no measurement. Another article mentions 142 km (88 miles) in 48 minutes http://tinyurl.com/bj2ch6x , probably express which is pretty damn fast, beats the hell out of driving.


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## hmmwv

^^ The distance between Guangzhou South and Zhuhai (Gongbei) is 116km, right now there are no non-stop train, the quickest one takes 72 minutes.


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## China Hand

I scored a VIP 1st Class Sight Seeing seat for my trip back today.


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## NCT

hmmwv said:


> ^^ The distance between Guangzhou South and Zhuhai (Gongbei) is 116km, right now there are no non-stop train, the quickest one takes 72 minutes.


It's almost one Yuan for every minute.


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## hmmwv

China Hand said:


> I scored a VIP 1st Class Sight Seeing seat for my trip back today.


My understanding is that on CRH380A there are no seats directly behind the driver so you can see through the glass wall and view out of the main windshield. Only on CRH3/380B.


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## Woonsocket54

hmmwv said:


> the straight line distance is only about 5 km, once a direct shuttle train is available between the two they will essentially become one station.


is that shuttle train in any way related to this long-delayed boondoggle?

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=18739618&postcount=22









http://www.cctv.com/english/special/news/20091029/103579.shtml


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## FM 2258

hmmwv said:


> ^^ The distance between Guangzhou South and Zhuhai (Gongbei) is 116km, right now there are no non-stop train, the quickest one takes 72 minutes.


Thanks for the clarification. What was the best way to get to Zhuhai before this line was opened? Car/Bus? 

Interesting that this train pretty much goes a mile per minute. Although I wish it was a faster line like the Shanghai -> Hangzhou or Beijing -> Tianjin line, this is probably a hell of a lot better than the previous transport options. 




Woonsocket54 said:


> is that shuttle train in any way related to this long-delayed boondoggle?
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=18739618&postcount=22
> 
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> http://www.cctv.com/english/special/news/20091029/103579.shtml


Why would a connector project be a boondoggle?

Also...is there going to be a similar connector to Beijing South? Maybe a triangle of rapid transit connections is in order.


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## Pansori

hmmwv said:


> My understanding is that on CRH380A there are no seats directly behind the driver so you can see through the glass wall and view out of the main windshield. Only on CRH3/380B.


Are you sure? What about this? http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/crh380a-high-speed-china/crh380a-high-speed-china6.html


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## urbanfan89

Woonsocket54 said:


> is that shuttle train in any way related to this long-delayed boondoggle?
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=18739618&postcount=22
> 
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> http://www.cctv.com/english/special/news/20091029/103579.shtml


Ah, yes. That was supposed to have been ready for the 2008 Olympics, and is *now* scheduled for June 2013.


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## foxmulder

China Hand said:


> I scored a VIP 1st Class Sight Seeing seat for my trip back today.


More pictures, or it did not happen


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## China Hand

hmmwv said:


> My understanding is that on CRH380A there are no seats directly behind the driver so you can see through the glass wall and view out of the main windshield. Only on CRH3/380B.


There was frosted glass between me and the driver's compartment.

The driver's compartment began at my feet.

The in-armrest touch screen offered movies, and mp3's, and travelogues of China...but no video cameras front, back or sides to see the exteriors...:rant:

The two front seats are exactly as 1st Class international flights. They have a full range of motorised settings including lying flat so that one may sleep.


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## feisibuke

China Hand said:


> There was frosted glass between me and the driver's compartment.


The glass is controllable by passengers. You'll find five buttons on one of the windowsills (in my case, besides seat 01A), press the bottom-right button to make it transparent:


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## China Hand

My panel had only 3 buttons and none for de-frosting or speaker.

There was no seat 1A in my compartment.


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## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> It's almost one Yuan for every minute.


For comparison: 

Guangzhou-Shenzhen - 91 minutes, second class 79 Yuan 5 Jiao
Nanchang-Jiujiang - 70 minutes, second class 39 Yuan 5 Jiao
Chengdu-Du Jiangyan - 28 minutes, soft seat 15 Yuan
Changchun-Jilin - 40 minutes, second class 31 Yuan 5 Jiao.


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## AlexNL

On the German ICE 3 high speed trains, the frosting of the glass can be controlled by the driver. Some prefer to have passengers not looking over their shoulder as they do their job, others don't mind.


----------



## FM 2258

The defrosting feature looks very cool. Tap on the window if the engineer falls asleep  ....


----------



## hmmwv

Woonsocket54 said:


> is that shuttle train in any way related to this long-delayed boondoggle?


This could be part of it, but I was referring to a shuttle train between Beijing West and Beijing South, not between Beijing West and Beijing (East). 



FM 2258 said:


> Thanks for the clarification. What was the best way to get to Zhuhai before this line was opened? Car/Bus?
> 
> Interesting that this train pretty much goes a mile per minute. Although I wish it was a faster line like the Shanghai -> Hangzhou or Beijing -> Tianjin line, this is probably a hell of a lot better than the previous transport options.
> 
> Why would a connector project be a boondoggle?
> 
> Also...is there going to be a similar connector to Beijing South? Maybe a triangle of rapid transit connections is in order.


The fastest way before is using the expressway, either drive or ride motor coaches. The current line is not an HSR but a intercity commuter train, it will be using CRH6 and have frequent stops, maybe when the full line is in service (including the connection to Zhuhai Sanzhao Airport) then an express service will be offered.

Regarding the shuttle train, currently there are physical tracks connecting the three stations, especially considering the one between Beijing West and Beijing South is a direct connection. Beijing (east) Station is a terminal station so if a shuttle is setup it will have to go from East --> South --> West, if a connection line is built between East and West then the shuttle can run in a loop.



Pansori said:


> Are you sure? What about this? http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/crh380a-high-speed-china/crh380a-high-speed-china6.html


I stand corrected.


----------



## Woonsocket54

is the BWRS-BSRS shuttle train opening this year? is it above ground on the existing mainline tracks?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> Regarding the shuttle train, currently there are physical tracks connecting the three stations, especially considering the one between Beijing West and Beijing South is a direct connection. Beijing (east) Station is a terminal station so if a shuttle is setup it will have to go from East --> South --> West, if a connection line is built between East and West then the shuttle can run in a loop.


Just shuttles, with connection on both ends? Or through trains?

I see that there are 5 trains Shenyang-Beijing that pass through Beijing:
T12/T13 Shenyang-Guangzhou, next stop after Beijing is Shijiazhuang
T158/T155 Harbin-Taizhou in Jiangsu, next stop after Beijing is Xuzhou
1714/1711 Shenyang North-Baotou, next stop after Beijing is Xuanhua
K1114/K1111 Shenyang-Datong, next stop after Beijing is Zhangjiakou South
1174/1171 Harbin-Taiyuan, next stop after Beijing is Baijian.

How do these trains pass through Beijing East station?

Where should D and G trains passing through Beijing be routed and make stops?


----------



## hmmwv

Woonsocket54 said:


> is the BWRS-BSRS shuttle train opening this year? is it above ground on the existing mainline tracks?


Don't know yet, if they want they can open the shuttle any time since all infrastructure is in place. There is an above ground connection line between West and South, total travel time is probably ten minutes or so. If it's me I'd put a few CRH6 on there and run them nonstop throughout the day.

The underground line is a EMU rated tunnel linking Beijing West and Beijing Railway Station (East). It's being under construction since 2005 and right now the estimated completion time is June of this year.




chornedsnorkack said:


> Just shuttles, with connection on both ends? Or through trains?
> How do these trains pass through Beijing East station?
> 
> Where should D and G trains passing through Beijing be routed and make stops?


I believe the shuttles are dedicated trains that just run back and forth. The "through" trains at Beijing (East) Railway Station drives into the terminal and then back out to continue their journeys. Very few D trains go through Beijing (East), I can think of D191/2/3/4 between Taiyuan and Shenyang, most D trains there are either ones to the Northeast and Tianjin, or to Shanghai using the upgraded conventional line. In terms of D and G trains, in general Beijing West handles traffic towards Guangzhou, Beijing South handles trains to Shanghai and Tianjin, I'm pretty sure Beijing (East) Railway Station doesn't handle G trains, Beijing North doesn't handle CRH trains at all.


----------



## Woonsocket54

Then there must be a reason why there is no direct shuttle between BWRS and BSRS, since the assumption is that Chinese railway administrations act rationally and respond to passenger needs. Perhaps it is a scheduling issue, lack of equipment, lack of electrification on the line?


----------



## saiho

hmmwv said:


> Don't know yet, if they want they can open the shuttle any time since all infrastructure is in place. There is an above ground connection line between West and South, total travel time is probably ten minutes or so. If it's me I'd put a few CRH6 on there and run them nonstop throughout the day.
> 
> The underground line is a EMU rated tunnel linking Beijing West and Beijing Railway Station (East). It's being under construction since 2005 and right now the estimated completion time is June of this year.


I would rather have the shuttles be unified under the the Beijing suburban railway S series lines. Instead of being a shuttle it would just be a continuation of an existing route from the suburbs. Imagine S3, S4, S5, and S6 though operating into each other via the BWRS-BERS tunnel while being the shuttle.


----------



## FM 2258

hmmwv said:


> The fastest way before is using the expressway, either drive or ride motor coaches. The current line is not an HSR but a intercity commuter train, it will be using CRH6 and have frequent stops, maybe when the full line is in service (including the connection to Zhuhai Sanzhao Airport) then an express service will be offered.
> 
> Regarding the shuttle train, currently there are physical tracks connecting the three stations, especially considering the one between Beijing West and Beijing South is a direct connection. Beijing (east) Station is a terminal station so if a shuttle is setup it will have to go from East --> South --> West, if a connection line is built between East and West then the shuttle can run in a loop.


I'm surprised there was no old railway between Zhuhai and Guangzhou before this line, hell even a line between GZ and Macau. As for Beijing a free loop connector would be nice. I'm not sure how often people need to transfer stations though. 


moving on...

I've found some interesting articles about new intercity lines Guangzhou -> Foshan, Guangzhou -> Huizhou and it was mentioned somewhere before about another intercity line between Guangzhou and Shenzhen? Anyone know more about these new CRH intercity lines? 

* Regional integration makes headway in Pearl River Delta*
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2012-11/10/content_15907654.htm


> Wang Jianhui, an associate professor at South China Normal University in Guangzhou, recently bought a new apartment in the city of Zhongshan, about 80 km away from where he works.
> 
> "I made my purchase decision for two key reasons: the house there is much cheaper than in Guangzhou, and the transportation is extremely convenient."
> 
> "I can either drive to my new house via the expressways or take the intercity light rail there."
> 
> Almost for the same reasons, many people who work in Guangzhou have chosen to buy houses in other Pearl River Delta cities outside Guangzhou and more people will follow suit, analysts said.
> 
> "The integration of the delta cities has brought about the improvement of traffic conditions. Otherwise, that would not have been possible," they said.
> 
> Guangdong began to promote regional integration in 2009 after gaining the approval of the State Council to implement the Outline of the Plan for the Reform and Development of the Pearl River Delta in late 2008.
> 
> "Great changes have in fact taken place, and the work of promoting regional integration is forging ahead right on track," according to a recent report released by the Guangdong Academy of Social Sciences.
> 
> According to the report, the nine Pearl River Delta cities form three economic circles. One covers Guangzhou, Fo-shan and Zhaoqing; the second is among Shenzhen, Dongguan and Huizhou, and the third is Zhuhai, Zhongshan and Jiangmen. ........


and 


*Guangzhou-Foshan Inter-city Railway to Be Completed in 2016 *
http://english.gz.gov.cn/publicfiles/business/htmlfiles/gzgoven/s4171/201208/953547.html


> According to the Department of Environmental Protection of Guangdong Province, the Guangzhou-Foshan Inter-city Railway "Foshan West Railway Station–Guangzhou South Railway Station" project, an infrastructure project with the biggest investment so far since the launching of the Guangzhou-Foshan Integration strategy, has passed the environmental assessment on July 31, 2012. Commenced in 2012, the 36-kilometer line is predicted to be finished in 2016, when the distance between Foshan and Guangzhou will be shortened to an 11-minute trip by metro.
> 
> In the rail transit network of the Pearl River Delta, this section is connected to the Foshan-Zhaoqing Intercity Railway in the west and the Foshan-Panyu-Dongguan-Huizhou Intercity Railway in the east while intersecting with the Guangzhou-Foshan-Jiangmen-Zhuhai Intercity Railway as well.


----------



## FM 2258

More in the Intercity Railways,

here is a map of the Guangzhou South -> Foshan Intercity Railway








source: http://e.rgd.com.cn/home/guangdongnow/2012-08-03-422.html


map of Foshan to Zhaoqing Intercity Railway:








source: http://www.lifeofguangzhou.com/node_10/node_34/node_280/2009/07/26/124859138467747.shtml

I assume these lines will be running CRH1 and CRH6 trains. I love the idea of the integrated Intercity CRH rail.


----------



## hmmwv

^^ The Guangzhou-Zhuhai line is just the first of a number of intercity commuter train lines planned. This including the Guangzhou-Foshan-Zhaoqin line, Guangzhou-Dongguan-Shenzhen line, Guangzhou-Foshan Loop line, and Dongguan-Huizhou line. All those lines are under construction with various opening dates around 2016.


----------



## hmmwv

Woonsocket54 said:


> Then there must be a reason why there is no direct shuttle between BWRS and BSRS, since the assumption is that Chinese railway administrations act rationally and respond to passenger needs. Perhaps it is a scheduling issue, lack of equipment, lack of electrification on the line?


I don't know, actually the real reason might be the lack of demand, afterall people traveling to those stations to board trains going to two completely different directions, so transferring between the two stations is not that common.



saiho said:


> I would rather have the shuttles be unified under the the Beijing suburban railway S series lines. Instead of being a shuttle it would just be a continuation of an existing route from the suburbs. Imagine S3, S4, S5, and S6 though operating into each other via the BWRS-BERS tunnel while being the shuttle.


If Beijing fully develops a intercity commuter train system and use Beijing West and Beijing Station, then that's probably what's gonna happen. I doubt a localized shuttle between Beijing West and Beijing South will be connected to outside lines, it'll affect D and G trains coming in and out of those stations.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> I don't know, actually the real reason might be the lack of demand, afterall people traveling to those stations to board trains going to two completely different directions, so transferring between the two stations is not that common.


Also... on Shenyang-Beijing, there are just 5 trains through Beijing (listed above) and something like 13 terminating slow trains. Whereas Shenyang-Tianjin... Just 8 trains which terminate in Tianjin. And 34 which do not. 5 are for Beijing via Tianjin. But the remaining 29... The routes include
Yanji-Qingdao (K1053/K1056)
Dandong-Shanghai (K187/K190)
Harbin-Hankou (T181/T184)
Harbin-Shanghai (K55/K58)
Harbin-Shijiazhuang (1523/1526)
Dalian-Zhengzhou (K715/K718)
Changchun-Shanghai (K515/K518)
Changchun-Xian (K125/K128)
Harbin-Qingdao (K701/K704)
Harbin-Dezhou (K1545/K1548)
Harbin-Wuchang (K973/K976)
Harbin-Wenzhou
Harbin-Chongqing
Tonghua-Qingdao
Qiqihaer-Xian
Dandong-Qingdao
Mudanjiang-Rizhao
Shenyang-Fuzhou
Changchun-Ningbo
Shenyang-Shenzhen
Harbin-Nanchang
Harbin-Guangzhou (2x daily: K1121/K1124B and T235/T238)
Harbin-Jinan
Shenyang-Taiyuan
Jiamusi-Yantai
Shenyang-Chengdu
Harbin-Hefei
Harbin-Zhengzhou
Shenyang-Wenzhou
Harbin-Nanjing
Changchun-Guangzhou
Tumen-Shanghai.

Routing via Tianjin rather than Beijing is fine for slow trains. But a problem with CRH. There are only 4 daily D trains Shenyang-Tianjin, and rather more on Shenyang-Beijing East. Also, while Tianjin is on high speed line Beijing-Jinan, and onwards to Qingdao, Hefei, Shanghai, Hangzhou, Fuzhou, Xiamen and Longyan, Tianjin is poorly connected to Shijiazhuang, Taiyuan, Xian, Guangzhou and Shenzhen.

What is the best way to route G trains between Tianjin and Shijiazhuang? Via Beijing, or elsewhere?

As of now, the D trains from Manchuria need to use slow railway from Qinhuangdao to Tianjin or Beijing. In which year shall the high speed railway Tianjin-Qinhuangdao be opened, whereupon the whole route from Tianjin to Harbin, Jilin and Dalian shall be no less than 250 km/h?


----------



## Pansori

hmmwv said:


> ^^ The Guangzhou-Zhuhai line is just the first of a number of intercity commuter train lines planned. This including the Guangzhou-Foshan-Zhaoqin line, Guangzhou-Dongguan-Shenzhen line, Guangzhou-Foshan Loop line, and Dongguan-Huizhou line. All those lines are under construction with various opening dates around 2016.


Is Guangzhou-Dongguan-Shenzhen going to be an all new line along the Guangshen line? In that case Guangzhou and Shenzhen will have 3 railway lines connecting both cities. I love the fact that they are developing fast commuter services in the PRD. The infrastructure already looks damn impressive in that part of China and once all of that gets done it will be pretty much out of this world.

Is there a map showing all commuter rail line plans in the PRD?


----------



## China Hand

hmmwv said:


> ^^ The Guangzhou-Zhuhai line is just the first of a number of intercity commuter train lines planned. This including the Guangzhou-Foshan-Zhaoqin line, Guangzhou-Dongguan-Shenzhen line, Guangzhou-Foshan Loop line, and Dongguan-Huizhou line. All those lines are under construction with various opening dates around 2016.


Thank goodness. Pearl River Delta is massive and getting around is very time consuming.


----------



## laojang

chornedsnorkack said:


> What is the best way to route G trains between Tianjin and Shijiazhuang? Via Beijing, or elsewhere?
> 
> As of now, the D trains from Manchuria need to use slow railway from Qinhuangdao to Tianjin or Beijing. In which year shall the high speed railway Tianjin-Qinhuangdao be opened, whereupon the whole route from Tianjin to Harbin, Jilin and Dalian shall be no less than 250 km/h?


There is a Tianjin-Baoding line under construction, which merges into Beijing Guangzhou HSR near the city of Baoding which is just north of Shijiazhuang. The design speed is
250km/h. It is scheduled to open in 2013 or 2014, after which there is no need to detour to Beijing. This line perhaps is the most difficult to build in China, not for technical reasons but for political ones. It was approved some 20 years ago and still not finished.
Tianjin-Qinhuangdao line is supposed to open 2013.

Laojang


----------



## saiho

Pansori said:


> Is Guangzhou-Dongguan-Shenzhen going to be an all new line along the Guangshen line? In that case Guangzhou and Shenzhen will have 3 railway lines connecting both cities. I love the fact that they are developing fast commuter services in the PRD. The infrastructure already looks damn impressive in that part of China and once all of that gets done it will be pretty much out of this world.
> 
> Is there a map showing all commuter rail line plans in the PRD?


With some planned metro and HSR lines etched in but very vague ATM but still gives you an idea of the beast that's emerging.


----------



## China Hand

Wow.

I was looking at a map and noticed the Strait of Taiwan. 70m deep.

That could be a tunnel.


----------



## Pansori

saiho said:


> With some planned metro and HSR lines etched in but very vague ATM but still gives you an idea of the beast that's emerging.


Thanks. Looks impressive. Any chance to get it translated into english? At least the meanings of colored lines?


----------



## gdolniak

saiho said:


> With some planned metro and HSR lines etched in but very vague ATM but still gives you an idea of the beast that's emerging.
> [...]


From which year is the map? Some things look a bit outdated.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Black and white lines are slow speed railways; pure white lines must be HSR lines, existing and future.

Are there any plans specifying the opening dates of the suburban lines? Guangzhou-Zhuhai is open and seems black... what shall be the next to open?


----------



## wlama

laojang said:


> There is a Tianjin-Baoding line under construction, which merges into Beijing Guangzhou HSR near the city of Baoding which is just north of Shijiazhuang. The design speed is
> 250km/h. It is scheduled to open in 2013 or 2014, after which there is no need to detour to Beijing.


On Google Earth imaginary I can trace construction of Xushui - Bazhou railroad but it forks from classic Baoding - Xushui - Beijing line and looks like continuation of Bazhou - Tianjin classical line which at its end merges into classical Tianjin - Beijing line. 

Even on newest pictures from 2012 I cannot find any trace of other Baoding - Tianjin rail. Are you sure there is HSR link under construction?


----------



## laojang

wlama said:


> On Google Earth imaginary I can trace construction of Xushui - Bazhou railroad but it forks from classic Baoding - Xushui - Beijing line and looks like continuation of Bazhou - Tianjin classical line which at its end merges into classical Tianjin - Beijing line.
> 
> Even on newest pictures from 2012 I cannot find any trace of other Baoding - Tianjin rail. Are you sure there is HSR link under construction?


Yes. It is well underway. Google earth is not up to date.
Here is a picture onsite from summer 2012. The text is in Chinese.

http://www.lfnews.cn/viewnews-389506.html




Laojang


----------



## Bannor

phoenixboi08 said:


> Also, the price is definitely low (in the context of China, I guess it's not), but I think a Boston - D.C. ticket on the Acela is closer to $150-170, right?


Depends on what you compare it with. If you look at Europe and compare it to Ryanair's airtravel fares, this is still extremely expensive. I fly from Oslo to Berlin next week for 11 euro(!)
Only hand baggage included though.


----------



## -TDN-

Bannor said:


> Depends on what you compare it with. If you look at Europe and compare it to Ryanair's airtravel fares, this is still extremely expensive. I fly from Oslo to Berlin next week for 11 euro(!)
> Only hand baggage included though.


what kind of airplane ticket cost 11 euro? I want to join too.


----------



## Pansori

-TDN- said:


> what kind of airplane ticket cost 11 euro? I want to join too.


A couple of years ago I paid something like 5 Euros for a Ryanair flight. Nowadays 10 Euro tickets are not common but for 30-40 Euros you can easily get return flights to many destinations.


----------



## China Hand

-TDN- said:


> what kind of airplane ticket cost 11 euro? I want to join too.


The flight is for cargo. That's the money maker. Passengers have no luggage, only a few kgs. So all the cargo hold earns revenue and the seats are an afterthought.


----------



## urbanfan89

Pansori said:


> Thanks. Looks impressive. Any chance to get it translated into english? At least the meanings of colored lines?


Black - Under Construction (you can tell this is already outdated)
Red - To be built soon
Blue - Planned
Green - Long term wish list


----------



## Bannor

^^ Search Oslo Rygge to Berlin Shonefeld. You'll find alot of tickets for that price the comming few months. However, they are not that common. true.

However, if you add luggage, the price of one bag adds about another 20 euro 
ANd then they have an expensive insurance available. And expensive cancellation charges (sometimes pricier than the cost of the ticket itself, lol)


----------



## saiho

gdolniak said:


> From which year is the map? Some things look a bit outdated.


don't know but definitely not current and the alignments are very general but it gives a good idea of whats going on.


----------



## Bannor

Very interesting map, although I wish there were more and easier connection between some of the lines. Between Guangzhou East and South in particular. Taking the metro between the two stations takes about 45 minutes, so some underground connection there would be great.
And where does the black new intercity line between shenzhen and guangzhou end up? DOes it both have a stop at guangzhou south as well as guangzhou airport? And how about that yellow dot north west of guangzhou airport? Is that a stop for both the HSR train, the old low speed rail and the intercity red upcomming circle line?


----------



## urbanfan89

Bannor said:


> ^^ Search Oslo Rygge to Berlin Shonefeld. You'll find alot of tickets for that price the comming few months. However, they are not that common. true.
> 
> However, if you add luggage, the price of one bag adds about another 20 euro
> ANd then they have an expensive insurance available. And expensive cancellation charges (sometimes pricier than the cost of the ticket itself, lol)


In parts of Europe and Japan, low cost airlines have won back market share from high speed trains through ultra-low fares. The Chinese government does not permit a RyanAir in China, and I wonder whether the high speed rail network will further discourage them from deregulating the airline sector.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

urbanfan89 said:


> Black - Under Construction (you can tell this is already outdated)


Yes - two branches of Guangzhou-Zhuhai have been opened.

The other blacks are Guangzhou-Shenzhen, Guangzhou-Huizhou and Guangzhou-Zhaoqing.

How is the construction progress and when shall these three lines be opened for traffic?


----------



## hhzz

China Hand said:


> Note in the photo that the track is NOT ballast-less.


The designed speed is only 250km/h and the ballastless track is not necessary.


----------



## FlyAkwa

Hello !

It's my first message here, but I read occasionally this forum. I'm an active participant of high-speed pages on Wikipedia.

Since 1st July 2011, I know that all high-speed line in China was lowered by 50 km/h, with a maximum speed of 300 km/h.

But, I discovered recently (in the message "July 24th, 2012", page 212 of this topic) that it was planned that speed may be raised to 320 km/h 
(such as in France).

I saw some videos taken in CRH trains with speed displayed on inboard screens between 300 and 310 km/h.

In the last messages in this topic : 


hhzz said:


> The trains on this line can run at 310km/h in maximum,and their average speed is around 220~280km/h which depend on which train you take.


it seems that some lines have been raised to 310 km/h.

Do you know what lines (Canton-Pekin ?), and what trains, are now authorized to 310 km/h ? (with sources if possible).
Thank you.


----------



## China Hand

Pansori said:


> Yes it's kinda realistic that a train maxing out at 300-310km/h would go at an average speed of around 280km/h with no intermediate stops but 309km/h sounds a bit unrealistic.


Many trains do not stop. G79, etal. So the termini are Changsha and Guangzhou South. No stops. Push throttle forward and go. 707 kms is the distance between the two.

When I take the train on that line the average speed is very high, very consistent, with few or no slowdowns. The train just cruises at top velocity for the entire duration.

When I rode that line in 2010 it was traveling at over 355kph in places for the 922km journey and we arrived from Wuhan in 3h14m after stopping at many stations and an avg velocity of 285. I think it very likely that a non-stop to Guangzhou would average 309 from Changsha with the current top velocities of 314 which I have seen in this train since the slowdowns.


----------



## binhai

How will the Ministry of Transport do things differently going forward? I hope to see a more holistic approach to transport with not just exclusive focus on one type, but this might just be bureaucratic reshuffling.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> Many trains do not stop. G79, etal. So the termini are Changsha and Guangzhou South. No stops. Push throttle forward and go. 707 kms is the distance between the two.
> 
> When I take the train on that line the average speed is very high, very consistent, with few or no slowdowns. The train just cruises at top velocity for the entire duration.
> 
> When I rode that line in 2010 it was traveling at over 355kph in places for the 922km journey and we arrived from Wuhan in 3h14m after stopping at many stations and an avg velocity of 285. I think it very likely that a non-stop to Guangzhou would average 309 from Changsha with the current top velocities of 314 which I have seen in this train since the slowdowns.


But the official distance Guangzhou North-Wuhan is 1022 km, not 922.

924 is the real distance.

While Guangzhou South-Changsha is officially 707, the real distance is 621 km. 
As of now, the fastest train Wuhan-Guanghou North (924 km) take 3:47 with 3 to 4 intermediate stops
fastest trains Wuhan-Guangzhou South (969 km) take 3:39 with 1 intermediate stop at Changsha, average 265 km/h
fastest trains Changsha-Guangzhou South (621 km) take 2:18 nonstop, average 270 km/h.


----------



## FM 2258

big-dog said:


> *Jan-7 Nanning-Qinzhou HSR completes test run, opening in 2013*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the 1st HSR rail in Guangxi Province. The new rail is a passenger/freight mix one, 159.813km long with design speed of 250km/h.
> 
> Source


Always good to see more High Speed Rail expansion. Is this line going to continue on southeast to Zhanjiang? It looks like most of the smaller lines are 200-250km/h lines. Why not make them all designed for 350km/h to "future proof" the lines. Maybe it's too expensive or the shorter distances won't make much more of a time savings with a 100-150km/h increase in speed.


----------



## hmmwv

FlyAkwa said:


> Hello !
> 
> It's my first message here, but I read occasionally this forum. I'm an active participant of high-speed pages on Wikipedia.
> 
> Since 1st July 2011, I know that all high-speed line in China was lowered by 50 km/h, with a maximum speed of 300 km/h.
> 
> But, I discovered recently (in the message "July 24th, 2012", page 212 of this topic) that it was planned that speed may be raised to 320 km/h
> (such as in France).
> 
> I saw some videos taken in CRH trains with speed displayed on inboard screens between 300 and 310 km/h.
> 
> In the last messages in this topic :
> 
> it seems that some lines have been raised to 310 km/h.
> 
> Do you know what lines (Canton-Pekin ?), and what trains, are now authorized to 310 km/h ? (with sources if possible).
> Thank you.


The speed limit has not been officially risen, but apparently it's not as strictly enforced as before. I have seen trains go as fast as 312km/h on a 300km/h line. Different railway bureaus have different policies regarding overspeeding, in the past Wuhan Railway Bureau being one of the stricter one will fine drivers who went more than 5km/h over speed limit.


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> Always good to see more High Speed Rail expansion. Is this line going to continue on southeast to Zhanjiang? It looks like most of the smaller lines are 200-250km/h lines. Why not make them all designed for 350km/h to "future proof" the lines. Maybe it's too expensive or the shorter distances won't make much more of a time savings with a 100-150km/h increase in speed.


This line will eventually extend to Fangchenggang, but not Zhanjiang. It's capped at 250km/h because it's not a PDL, but rather conventional railway shared with freight traffic.


----------



## Silly_Walks

China Hand said:


> I think it very likely that a non-stop to Guangzhou would average 309 from Changsha with the current top velocities of 314 which I have seen in this train since the slowdowns.


Very, very unlikely.


Much more likely is they use the old, longer distance for calculating the price, and then display that distance as it is more 'impressive'.

However, to calculate the average speed, you need the REAL, actual distance.

An average of 309 km/h when cruising speed is 300 km/h, with occasional excesses towards 310 or 314 km/h is just not plausible.

Even if the train was going direct with no stops, and accelerated and decelerated quickly and had a constant speed of 314 km/h (which is not the case), it would be VERY difficult to get to a 309 km/h average speed.


Occam's razor applies here: the simplest and most obvious answer is most likely to be true.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

There is one month left of the year. The tickets for year end travel have been sold.

Has it become known by now whether Nanjing-Hangzhou high speed railway shall open this year or in Snake Year?


----------



## FM 2258

hmmwv said:


> This line will eventually extend to Fangchenggang, but not Zhanjiang. It's capped at 250km/h because it's not a PDL, but rather conventional railway shared with freight traffic.


I see, just a little bit longer. 

So are all Passenger Dedicated Lines (PDL's) built to 350km/h design? I would imagine they would be 250km/h if they go through rough terrain.


----------



## hhzz

FlyAkwa said:


> Hello !
> 
> It's my first message here, but I read occasionally this forum. I'm an active participant of high-speed pages on Wikipedia.
> 
> Since 1st July 2011, I know that all high-speed line in China was lowered by 50 km/h, with a maximum speed of 300 km/h.
> 
> But, I discovered recently (in the message "July 24th, 2012", page 212 of this topic) that it was planned that speed may be raised to 320 km/h
> (such as in France).
> 
> I saw some videos taken in CRH trains with speed displayed on inboard screens between 300 and 310 km/h.
> 
> In the last messages in this topic :
> 
> it seems that some lines have been raised to 310 km/h.
> 
> Do you know what lines (Canton-Pekin ?), and what trains, are now authorized to 310 km/h ? (with sources if possible).
> Thank you.


The G-trains(those track with a ≥350km/h speed designed) have run at a top speed around 300~310km/h since 1st July,2011.


----------



## big-dog

FM 2258 said:


> Always good to see more High Speed Rail expansion. Is this line going to continue on southeast to Zhanjiang? It looks like most of the smaller lines are 200-250km/h lines. Why not make them all designed for 350km/h to "future proof" the lines. Maybe it's too expensive or the shorter distances won't make much more of a time savings with a 100-150km/h increase in speed.


Apart from cost and distance this is also a freight rail. It's currently not economically feasible to have freight trains running on 300kmph tracks.


----------



## hhzz

FM 2258 said:


> I see, just a little bit longer.
> 
> So are all Passenger Dedicated Lines (PDL's) built to 350km/h design? I would imagine they would be 250km/h if they go through rough terrain.


No,not all the PDL lines have a 350km/h speed designed,they also have 250 and some are even lower(200km/h).
Right,take the Shanghai-Kunming HSR for example,Shanghai-Changsha section has a 350km/h speed designed compared to 250km/h Changsha-Kunming section,which will get through many mountainous and high altitude areas.It's difficult to build HSR there.


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> I see, just a little bit longer.
> 
> So are all Passenger Dedicated Lines (PDL's) built to 350km/h design? I would imagine they would be 250km/h if they go through rough terrain.


No, not all PDLs are 250km/h but all 350km/h lines are PDL. Notable example will be the PDL between Shenzhen North and Kowloon is a 200km/h line.


----------



## Pansori

hmmwv said:


> No, not all PDLs are 250km/h but all 350km/h lines are PDL. Notable example will be the PDL between Shenzhen North and Kowloon is a 200km/h line.


Large part of the HK section will go in an underground tunnel, right?


----------



## feisibuke

Pansori said:


> Large part of the HK section will go in an underground tunnel, right?


Replace "large" with "all", and it would be right.


----------



## kw0943

Regarding to 2015, some sources say a 40000 km network while some say a 18000 km network. What is the exact measures used by both. My guess is
18000 (Includes only 300-350 km trains and 200-250 km trains)
40000 (Also includes z-trains, trains that has been lowered to 160 kmh from 200 kmh from wenzhou)


----------



## China Hand

kw0943 said:


> Regarding to 2015, some sources say a 40000 km network while some say a 18000 km network. What is the exact measures used by both. My guess is
> 18000 (Includes only 300-350 km trains and 200-250 km trains)
> 40000 (Also includes z-trains, trains that has been lowered to 160 kmh from 200 kmh from wenzhou)


When I look at the planned CRH map and the extant map of regular rail in China, it occurs to me that they may upgrade half of the 'normal' rail in China to 200kmh to get to that 40000 km figure.

I have read several stories where they state that once they finish the CRH PDL's they will then take that expertise and knowledge and use it to upgrade the slower 76kmh normal rail to 200.

20000 PDL CRH 200, 250, 350 kmh
20000 upgraded passenger and freight lines
60000 old style passenger and freight lines


----------



## Pansori

China Hand said:


> I have read several stories where they state that once they finish the CRH PDL's they will then take that expertise and knowledge and use it to upgrade the slower *76kmh* normal rail to 200.


76km/h? What is that about? Do you mean 120-160km/h non-hispeed lines?


----------



## China Hand

Pansori said:


> 76km/h? What is that about? Do you mean 120-160km/h non-hispeed lines?


That is the average speed of a Knnn or Nnnn train from point to point.

SLOW.

http://www.chinatrainguide.com/xian-railway-station/guangzhou.html

K1295/K1298

01:55	Xian Shaanxi
08:27	Guangzhou

Time, distance, hard seat/soft, hard sleeper, soft sleeper
30h32m, 2176km, 243/- , 413/427/442, 645/674

2176 / 30.533= 71.26 kph avg speed.

1085	Xian Shaanxi
00:38	Urumqi
10:08	33h30m	2568	
76.66 kph

K1354/K1351	Xian Shaanxi
02:18	Urumqi
12:00	33h42m	2568	
76.20 koh


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> That is the average speed of a Knnn or Nnnn train from point to point.
> 
> SLOW.
> 
> http://www.chinatrainguide.com/xian-railway-station/guangzhou.html
> 
> K1295/K1298
> 
> 01:55	Xian Shaanxi
> 08:27	Guangzhou
> 
> Time, distance, hard seat/soft, hard sleeper, soft sleeper
> 30h32m, 2176km, 243/- , 413/427/442, 645/674
> 
> 2176 / 30.533= 71.26 kph avg speed.


You are comparing apples and oranges. Maximum speeds with average.
But let us compare average with average.

Tianjin-Beijing.

High speed trains include C trains. 120 km Tianjin to Beijing South. 33 minutes. Average speed 218 km/h.

Another high speed railway line has G trains. 122 km Tianjin South to Beijing South. Also 33 minutes. Average speed 222 km/h.

D trains are slower - slightly. D320 and D342 travel Tianjin South to Beijing South in just 36 minutes. Average speed 203 km/h.

Now have a look at the slow speed railways.
The fastest is Z81/Z80. 137 km Tianjin-Beijing. 
Travel time 1:16 (4:37 to 5:53). Average speed 108 km/h.

But this is nonstop. Have a look at the one (sic!) train daily that offers service.

This is 6452.
Travel time 3:20 - sic!, 6:28 to 9:48.
Average speed is NOT 76 km/h.
It is 41 km/h.
And it still manages to serve just 8 stops in these 137 km. 

And the main railway magistral across China, train 1462, the Shanghai-Beijing train, ALSO manages to somehow spend 3:18 (sic!, 7:22 to 10:40) on the 148 km Tianjin West-Beijing - despite making mere 2 intermediate stops. Average speed 45 km/h.

Compare say, Helsinki-Toijala.

It is NOT a new high speed railway. Most of the line was built by 1862, the rest by 1876. It is also in sparsely settled Finland. And it has to carry, and does carry, freight trains too. Most of the line is just two tracks.

147 km Helsinki-Toijala...
Milk runs cover the distance in 1:40. On 147 km, it means average speed 88 km/h. 

And at 88 km/h, the train manages 11 intermediate stops.

7 milk run daily, at Finnish population density. (BTW, the stopping patterns and travel times are standard between these 7 milk runs). 

Expresses take 1:24, meaning 105 km/h, with 4 intermediate stops. These expresses run also at a strict hourly schedule - 17 trains daily. AND while they all go to Tampere, most of them continue beyond - to different destinations.


----------



## Sunfuns

Why are we comparing with Finland, now? It's hardly a secret that before the current building/improvement boom Chinese rail was well below world standard.


----------



## -TDN-

Sunfuns said:


> Why are we comparing with Finland, now? It's hardly a secret that before the current building/improvement boom Chinese rail was well below world standard.


Except that Chinese old rail transported the mass in the billions throughout the years and was always better quality than Switzerland's. It's a fact.


----------



## Sunfuns

-TDN- said:


> was always better quality than Switzerland's. It's a fact.


Is that supposed to be funny?


----------



## Sopomon

-TDN- said:


> Except that Chinese old rail transported the mass in the billions throughout the years and was always better quality than Switzerland's. It's a fact.


Eh?:nuts:


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> You are comparing apples and oranges. Maximum speeds with average.
> But let us compare average with average.
> 
> Tianjin-Beijing.
> 
> High speed trains include C trains. 120 km Tianjin to Beijing South. 33 minutes. Average speed 218 km/h.
> 
> Another high speed railway line has G trains. 122 km Tianjin South to Beijing South. Also 33 minutes. Average speed 222 km/h.
> 
> D trains are slower - slightly. D320 and D342 travel Tianjin South to Beijing South in just 36 minutes. Average speed 203 km/h.


We are in agreement. Newer trains travel at 3 times, or greater, the average speeds of older trains. In many cases travel times are reduced by a factor of 6 !


----------



## China Hand

-TDN- said:


> Except that Chinese old rail transported the mass in the billions throughout the years and was always better quality than Switzerland's. It's a fact.


Chinese nationalists. They are even worse than the Americans.


----------



## Pansori

China Hand said:


> Chinese nationalists. They are even worse than the Americans.


They're not that bad. In fact they're harmless but at the same time are very funny.


----------



## stoneybee

Pansori said:


> They're not that bad. In fact they're harmless but at the same time are very funny.


Sorry, I am confused with this discussion. Are we talking pre or post 1949 here when we reference to " Chinese nationalists"


----------



## Pansori

stoneybee said:


> Sorry, I am confused with this discussion. Are we talking pre or post 1949 here when we reference to " Chinese nationalists"


I mean the post 1949 ones


----------



## kw0943

"Back to topic"

In regarding to the z-series upgrade to 200 km/h, it has already been started. That is why china had 12,000 km of high speed rail before it mysteriously dropped to about 7000 km. Some trains of the z-series was downgraded to 160 km/h from 200 km/h.

Thanks for the 18,000/40,000 km explanation

Hope china makes the length of its high speed rail more transparent.


----------



## Pansori

kw0943 said:


> Regarding to 2015, some sources say a 40000 km network while some say a 18000 km network. What is the exact measures used by both. My guess is
> 18000 (Includes only 300-350 km trains and 200-250 km trains)
> 40000 (Also includes z-trains, trains that has been lowered to 160 kmh from 200 kmh from wenzhou)


There is a good article in IRJ which, among many other things, mentions the length of the network by 2015


*China’s high-speed programme back on track*
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/chinas-high-speed-programme-back-on-track.html



> According to MOR, the length of high-speed lines with a design speed of *300-350km/h will be 6700km and that with a design speed of 200-250km/h will be 11,300km by 2015.*


If we go by the wording of this article this means that the HSR network (200-350/380km/h) will be in total 18 000km long (it needs clarification regarding the new/upgraded 200km/h lines but I guess this is not very important). Therefore the 18K figure seems clear. 


I have no idea what the 40 000km figure represents. But I did some web searches and the 40 000km is mentioned rather often albeit with no clarification what exactly it means. Could it be the total length of new railways to get built during 2011-2015?

And personally I believe the best practice would be to only count 250km/h+ lines when measuring the total length of the HSR network. Just to avoid any misunderstandings and discussions what the HSR definition is and similar bullshit.


----------



## -TDN-

Sunfuns said:


> Is that supposed to be funny?


It' not to be funny. Just to show that anyone can make ignorant assumption.


----------



## foxmulder

A video with some nice footage. 

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Rwip6L8UCfA


----------



## laojang

Just for the record. The speed of passenger trains in many old lines in China is restricted mainly by the traffic rather than the technical conditions of the tracks or the trains. Many of the K and N trains must yield to T, K and other K trains. They have to stop in the stations for long time. There are K trains
which average around 30 km/h on sections of tracks near Tianjin, like the
new K train from Changchun to Kunming.
Technically the tracks can comodate 200km/h D trains, and 160km/h Z trains from Beijing to Shanghaibefore they were terminated.

Laojang




chornedsnorkack said:


> You are comparing apples and oranges. Maximum speeds with average.
> But let us compare average with average.
> 
> Tianjin-Beijing.
> 
> High speed trains include C trains. 120 km Tianjin to Beijing South. 33 minutes. Average speed 218 km/h.
> 
> Another high speed railway line has G trains. 122 km Tianjin South to Beijing South. Also 33 minutes. Average speed 222 km/h.
> 
> D trains are slower - slightly. D320 and D342 travel Tianjin South to Beijing South in just 36 minutes. Average speed 203 km/h.
> 
> Now have a look at the slow speed railways.
> The fastest is Z81/Z80. 137 km Tianjin-Beijing.
> Travel time 1:16 (4:37 to 5:53). Average speed 108 km/h.
> 
> But this is nonstop. Have a look at the one (sic!) train daily that offers service.
> 
> This is 6452.
> Travel time 3:20 - sic!, 6:28 to 9:48.
> Average speed is NOT 76 km/h.
> It is 41 km/h.
> And it still manages to serve just 8 stops in these 137 km.
> 
> And the main railway magistral across China, train 1462, the Shanghai-Beijing train, ALSO manages to somehow spend 3:18 (sic!, 7:22 to 10:40) on the 148 km Tianjin West-Beijing - despite making mere 2 intermediate stops. Average speed 45 km/h.
> 
> Compare say, Helsinki-Toijala.
> 
> It is NOT a new high speed railway. Most of the line was built by 1862, the rest by 1876. It is also in sparsely settled Finland. And it has to carry, and does carry, freight trains too. Most of the line is just two tracks.
> 
> 147 km Helsinki-Toijala...
> Milk runs cover the distance in 1:40. On 147 km, it means average speed 88 km/h.
> 
> And at 88 km/h, the train manages 11 intermediate stops.
> 
> 7 milk run daily, at Finnish population density. (BTW, the stopping patterns and travel times are standard between these 7 milk runs).
> 
> Expresses take 1:24, meaning 105 km/h, with 4 intermediate stops. These expresses run also at a strict hourly schedule - 17 trains daily. AND while they all go to Tampere, most of them continue beyond - to different destinations.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> If we go by the wording of this article this means that the HSR network (200-350/380km/h) will be in total 18 000km long (it needs clarification regarding the new/upgraded 200km/h lines but I guess this is not very important). Therefore the 18K figure seems clear.


Let´s sum up the existing state.

350 km/h railways open by 2013:
Harbin-Shenyang-Dalian - unknown whether 200 or 350 km/h, length 904 km
Beijing-Shanghai - 1302 km
Bengbu-Hefei - 131 km
Beijing-Longhua - 2206 km
Zhengzhou-Xian - 455 km
Shanghai-Nanjing - 301 km
Shanghai-Hangzhou - 150 km
Beijing-Tianjin - 115 km

Total - 4660 km plus arguably the 904 km Harbin-Dalian would be 5564 km.

This leaves 1136 km railways of 300...350 km/h by 2015.

Which lines?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Let´s sum up the existing state.
> 
> 350 km/h railways open by 2013:
> Harbin-Shenyang-Dalian - unknown whether 200 or 350 km/h, length 904 km
> Beijing-Shanghai - 1302 km
> Bengbu-Hefei - 131 km
> Beijing-Longhua - 2206 km
> Zhengzhou-Xian - 455 km
> Shanghai-Nanjing - 301 km
> Shanghai-Hangzhou - 150 km
> Beijing-Tianjin - 115 km
> 
> Total - 4660 km plus arguably the 904 km Harbin-Dalian would be 5564 km.
> 
> This leaves 1136 km railways of 300...350 km/h by 2015.
> 
> Which lines?


Harbin-Dalian is a 350km/h HSR.

The following 300-350 G train lines are suppose to open before 2015, please feel free to add if I have missed anything.

Nanjing-Hangzhou 249km
Hangzhou-Ningbo 150km
Panjin-Yingkou 89km
Tianjin-Qinghuangdao 261km
Xian-Baoji 148km
Chongqing-Wanzhou Intercity 239km

Total 1136km

Hangzhou-Changsha 921km but I'm not sure it will be finished before 2015, but at least the section in Jiangxi Province is set to open in 2014, the rest of the line should be completed within 2015.

Also could potentially add Harbin-Qiqihar PDL 286km (250km with option to upgrade to 300km/h)


----------



## 33Hz

Could the 40000km come from counting the track rather than lines? Wouldn't be the first time I've seen that done.


----------



## Pansori

33Hz said:


> Could the 40000km come from counting the track rather than lines? Wouldn't be the first time I've seen that done.


That's what I though. Since all HSR lines have at least double tracks you instantly get 36000km. That would be a bit stupid though.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> The diagram is not showing duplicate lines on some routes?


One duplicate route (Beijing-Tianjin). And 3 separate routes I listed.


----------



## :jax:

Would a metro map do that? If it hadn't been for Tianjin having several stations, Beijing-Tianjin could be considered a short route/express stop on the Beijing-Shanghai route.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

laojang said:


> Nice diagram. May I add one thing. A line from Nanjing to Hangzhou
> will open this year.


There are only 15 days left of the year, people are already buying tickets and travelling for New Year.

Has the Nanjing-Hangzhou high speed line been confirmed to open before Dragon Year ends?


----------



## gnatho

chornedsnorkack said:


> There are only 15 days left of the year, people are already buying tickets and travelling for New Year.
> 
> Has the Nanjing-Hangzhou high speed line been confirmed to open before Dragon Year ends?


It definitely won't be open before and shortly after the Spring Festival. Gaotie.cn reports "first half of 2013" 

source


----------



## Hasea

*CHINA|CRH China Railway Highspeed*








Very High Speed Test Train 更高速度试验列车


----------



## feisibuke

dup should rm moderator where


----------



## Hasea

Who can I upload some pics in my post?


----------



## Hasea

CRH1A 8 class
CRH1B 16 Class


----------



## Hasea

CRH2A Max Speed 250km/h


----------



## Hasea

CRH3 MAXSPEED 300KM/H


----------



## Silver Swordsman

Dood, there is already a thread for CRH. 

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1265631

You should've read this before making this thread:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1341913


----------



## Hasea

CRH5


----------



## Hasea

Some CRH family. And some special CRH









very high speed test train 600km/h on Test platform

http://bbs.hasea.com/thread-449360-1-1.html


----------



## Hasea

Primitive name CRH400A, Now：CRH380A-001 we called CIT400A













































More Information
http://bbs.hasea.com/thread-466220-1-1.html


----------



## Hasea

CRH6 CSR 120KM\160KM\200KM\ 3 speed platform


----------



## Hasea

CRH380B-002 TEST TRAIN


----------



## Sopomon

This thread is useless, please delete. There are 4 other threads discussing railways of various kinds in China


----------



## 3737

^^ We can't see them


----------



## China Hand

Anyone know if these lines will be built or approved or funded? I was looking over the CRH wikipaedia page and the drawing has some of these redlined in, but they do not have any other data on the page that refers to them. In the case of the HohHot or Xian-Datong line it is not on either of the maps but it seems to be U/C. Some would make sense, some are pro but not on maps, some are on maps but no details, some are U/C but not on maps.

Zhangjiakou-Ulanqab-Hohhot (does not make sense to build this isolated from the network)
Haerbin-Jiamusi/Shuangyashan
Haerbin-Mudanjiang
Haerbin-QiQihar (U/C)
Datong-Ulanqab
Datong-Zhangjiakou
Zhangjiakou-Beijing (mountains likely mean this track will be 200kph or much less)
Taiyuan-Yinchuan
Taiyuan-Zhongwei
Hohot-Yinchuan
Zhongwei-Langzhou

I realise these are the poorer provinces and some of these segments are highly speculative and any timeframe would be 2017-2022.


----------



## CoCoMilk




----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> Zhangjiakou-Beijing (mountains likely mean this track will be 200kph or much less)


Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan is Taihangshan mountains, too, but it is 250 km/h.


----------



## big-dog

*1.27 Qingdao-Jinan will build 350km/h HSR*

It's approved by Shandong government and MOR. Project preparation will start in 2013.










The current 250km/h "D" train between the two cities can not satisfy the growing traffic volume. The new "G" CRH will take 1.5 hours travelling between the two major cities of Shandong Province.

source


----------



## gramercy

nice

i always thought those 'early' sub-300kph projects will have to be complemented by new lines given the huge population


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan is Taihangshan mountains, too, but it is 250 km/h.


Those trains often are at 80 to 140kph when going through multiple mountain tunnels. They do it for the Xian-Zhengzhou run.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> There are only 15 days left of the year, people are already buying tickets and travelling for New Year.
> 
> Has the Nanjing-Hangzhou high speed line been confirmed to open before Dragon Year ends?


"This year" means within 2013, not within Year of the Dragon.


----------



## FM 2258

big-dog said:


> *1.27 Qingdao-Jinan will build 350km/h HSR*
> 
> It's approved by Shandong government and MOR. Project preparation will start in 2013.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The current 250km/h "D" train between the two cities can not satisfy the growing traffic volume. The new "G" CRH will take 1.5 hours travelling between the two major cities of Shandong Province.
> 
> source


This is great news. Will this count as an intercity line like the Shanghai-Nanging or Beijing-Tianjin? I wonder if this was part of the 4+4 plan. 



China Hand said:


> Those trains often are at 80 to 140kph when going through multiple mountain tunnels. They do it for the Xian-Zhengzhou run.


Why is that? Will changing air pressure cause damage to the train if it went any faster?


----------



## big-dog

FM 2258 said:


> This is great news. Will this count as an intercity line like the Shanghai-Nanging or Beijing-Tianjin? I wonder if this was part of the 4+4 plan.


From the planning the new 350km/h HSR when completed will be merged into national HSR nework while the exiting 250km/h will serve as intercity line.


----------



## China Hand

FM 2258 said:


> Why is that? Will changing air pressure cause damage to the train if it went any faster?


I do not know and can only speculate.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

I compiled a selection of long high speed lines:

1) 2223 km Beijing-Fuzhou
1 pair daily; 2nd class 673 yuan, upper soft sleeper 1162 yuan, lower soft sleeper 1309 yuan
there D365, 15:10, 23 stops
back D366, 15:31, 23 stops
2) 2202 km Beijing-Shenzhen
1 pair daily; 2nd class 936 yuan 5 jiao, 1st class 1479 yuan 5 jiao
there G71, 10:16, 15 stops
back G72, 10:25, 15 stops
3) 2100 km Beijing-Guangzhou
2 pairs daily, + includes Beijing-Shenzhen 1 pair; 2nd class 862 yuan, 1st class 1380 yuan
there G79, 7:59, 4 stops
and G81, 9:27, 12 stops
and G71, 9:48, 14 stops
back G80, 7:59, 4 stops
and G82, 9:40, 15 stops
and G72, 9:51, 13 stops 
4) 2043 km Taiyuan-Guangzhou
1 pair daily; 2nd class 851 yuan, 1st class 1335 yuan
there G624/G621, 10:02, 14 stops
back G622/G623, 9:48, 12 stops
5) 2012 km Xian-Shenzhen
1 pair daily; 2nd class 890 yuan, 1st class 1405 yuan, VIP seat 1672 yuan
there G824/G821, 9:34, 12 stops
back G826/G827, 9:33, 13 stops
6) 2003 km also Xian-Shenzhen (what is the difference?)
another 1 pair daily; 2nd class 888 yuan, 1st class 1401 yuan, no VIP seat on that pair
there G822/G823, 9:42, 14 stops
back G828/G825, 9:23, 13 stops
7) 1901 km Xian-Guangzhou
4 pairs daily, +includes Xian-Shenzhen 2 pairs; 2nd class 813 yuan 5 jiao, 1st class 1301 yuan 5 jiao. VIP seat offered on 1 pair of the 4 namely G842/G839 and G840/G841, price 1548 yuan 5 jiao.
there fastest G98/G95, 7:40, 3 stops
slowest G842/G839, 12 stops
back fastest G96, 7:40, 3 stops
slowest G840/G841, 9:09, 13 stops
8) 1819 km Shijiazhuang-Guangzhou
1 pair daily, +includes 2 pairs Beijing-Guangzhou, 1 pair Beijing-Shenzhen and 1 pair Taiyuan-Guangzhou; 2nd class 785 yuan 5 jiao, 1st class 1256 yuan 5 jiao
there G531, 8:31, 11 stops
back G532, 8:13, 12 stops
9) 1580 km Nanjing-Nanjing-Longyan
1 pair daily; 2nd class 467 yuan, 1st class 561 yuan
there D3135/D3138, 12:49, 32 stops
back D3137/D3136, 12:36, 28 stops
10) 1538 km Zhengzhou-Shenzhen
2 pairs daily, +includes 1 pair Beijing-Shenzhen and 2 pairs Xian-Shenzhen; 2nd class 727 yuan 5 Jiao, 1st class 1145 yuan 5 jiao, VIP seat offered on 1 pair G73 and G76 price 1363 yuan 5 jiao
there G73, 6:57, 9 stops
and G75, 7:04, 11 stops
back G76, 6:41, 8 stops
and G74, 7:07, 10 stops
11) 1503 km Xian-Shanghai, unknown route Zhengzhou-Nanjing
1 pair nightly; 2nd class 338 yuan, upper soft sleeper 741 yuan, lower soft sleeper 834 yuan
there D308/D305, 10:46, 7 stops
back D306/D307, 10:40, 7 stops
12) 1487 km Beijing-Hangzhou
7 pairs daily, +includes 1 pair Beijing-Fuzhou; 2nd class 629 yuan, 1st class 1056 yuan
there fastest G35, 6:18, 6 stops
slowest G33, 6:40, 9 stops
same number of stops made in 6:31 by G37 and G41
back fastest G42, 6:24, 8 stops
slowest G34, 6:41, 9 stops
most stops G44, 6:38, 10 stops
13) 1482 km Beijing-Changsha
4 pairs daily, +includes 1 pair Beijing-Shenzhen and 2 pairs Beijing-Guangzhou; 2nd class 649 yuan, 1st class 1038 yuan, VIP seat offered on all 4 pairs, price 1235 yuan
there fastest G83, 5:40, 3 stops
slowest G505, 6:51, 11 stops
back fastest G84, 5:40, 3 stops
slowest G506, 6:37, 10 stops
14) 1454 km Beijing-Shanghai
3 pairs nightly; 2nd class 309 yuan, upper soft sleeper 615 yuan, lower soft sleeper 696 yuan
there fastest D313, 11:41, 2 stops
slower D311 and D321, 11:42, 2 stops
back fastest D312, 11:37, 2 stops
slower D314 and D322, 11:38, 2 stops
15) 1445 km Zhengzhou-Guangzhou
1 pair daily, +includes 4 pairs Xian-Guangzhou and 1 pair Xian-Shenzhen; second class 656 yuan, first class, 1050 yuan
there G93, 5:39, 2 stops
back G546, 6:51, 9 stops
16) 1436 km Zhengzhou East-Guangzhou
4 pairs daily +includes 1 pair Xian-Shenzhen, 2 pairs Zhengzhou-Shenzhen, 1 pair Beijing-Shenzhen, 2 pairs Beijing-Guangzhou, 1 pair Taiyuan-Guangzhou, 1 pair Shijiazhuang-Guangzhou; second class 653 yuan, first class 1046 yuan, VIP seat offered on 2 pairs of 4, price 1244 yuan
there fastest G545, 6:13, 7 stops
slowest G543, 6:32, 10 stops
same number of stops is done in 6:28 by G547
back fastest G94, 5:28, 2 stops
slowest G542, 6:39, 9 stops
most stops G548, 6:34, 10 stops


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> Why is that? Will changing air pressure cause damage to the train if it went any faster?


Multiple tunnels in close proximity means tunnel booms can't be dissipated fully so it will not only increase air resistance but potentially induce damages to the tunnel entrance. This is especially bad when the tunnels are long so more pressure can be build up inside. It's less of an issue when tunnel is stand alone, on the Beijing-Shanghai line the trains routinely go through tunnels at close to 300km/h.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

hmmwv said:


> Multiple tunnels in close proximity means tunnel booms can't be dissipated fully so it will not only increase air resistance but potentially induce damages to the tunnel entrance. This is especially bad when the tunnels are long so more pressure can be build up inside. It's less of an issue when tunnel is stand alone, on the Beijing-Shanghai line the trains routinely go through tunnels at close to 300km/h.


I've travelled on HSR where parts of the line are in "multiple tunnels", and they were at full speed (300kmh). Not very sure what's going on here. Could it be that the bore diameter for these tunnels are tighter, making the tunnel boom more serious?


----------



## big-dog

CRH in Chongqing










[email protected]天下火车


----------



## makita09

hmmwv said:


> Multiple tunnels in close proximity means tunnel booms can't be dissipated fully so it will not only increase air resistance but potentially induce damages to the tunnel entrance. This is especially bad when the tunnels are long so more pressure can be build up inside. It's less of an issue when tunnel is stand alone, on the Beijing-Shanghai line the trains routinely go through tunnels at close to 300km/h.


No, tunnel boom concerns only area of tunnel cross-section vs the pressure impulse given by a function of speed and the shape of the train nose.

Trains routinely go through tunnels at 300km/h all over the world.

I don't know how you think a boom wouldn't dissipate due to an adjacent tunnel?


----------



## FM 2258

^^

I was surprised to see that a high speed train will have to slow down to 80km/h for tunnels on the Xian-Zhengzhou line. I've read that trains do slow down for tunnels like in Spain but nothing extremely slow. 


Thanks *big-dog* for the Chongqing picture with the CRH1E. I'm happy to how that the Chongqiing-Chengdu Intercity Railway will be a 350 km/h line according to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu–Chongqing_Intercity_Railway . I somehow thought it would be a 250 km/h line due to the terrain but faster is always better when it comes to trains in my opinion.


----------



## feisibuke

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> I was surprised to see that a high speed train will have to slow down to 80km/h for tunnels on the Xian-Zhengzhou line. I've read that trains do slow down for tunnels like in Spain but nothing extremely slow.


It's not true. Last time I was on the Xi'an–Zhengzhou line, it was 280+ km/h. Perhaps he was not lucky on that day.


----------



## Nyuszi

I know this a development thread, but I would like to ask - hopefully - one last question about traveling with Chinese bullet trains.

I heard that the bullet trains are usually overcrowded, especially in the peek hours. So it's recommended to buy the tickets in advance. 

My question is, how advance my purchase should be if I'd like to have a sure seat on the G1102 7:00 Guangzhou South - Wuhan, and the D3088 12:15 Wuhan - Shanghai trains?

Since I haven't been to China yet, I'm sadly not familiar with the ticketing system. Is it possible buying a ticket in advance for the previous CRH trains e. g. at the Zhuhai "Gongbei" Railway Station (or in Macau / HKG)?

Or my concern is absolutely unnecessary, and I should just walk up to the counter on the day of my travel at Guangzhou South a few hours before my trains leaves and I would be able to buy my tickets?


----------



## makita09

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> I was surprised to see that a high speed train will have to slow down to 80km/h for tunnels on the Xian-Zhengzhou line. I've read that trains do slow down for tunnels like in Spain but nothing extremely slow.


There are lots of misapprehensions out there about tunnels and HSR speed. In the UK many people still think the trains have to slow down for all the tunnels, when they don't - only the ones near London are restricted below linespeed, so a smaller tunnel cross-section can be used without affecting journey times.

Where it would affect journey times however, they just build a bigger tunnel


----------



## feisibuke

Nyuszi said:


> My question is, how advance my purchase should be if I'd like to have a sure seat on the G1102 7:00 Guangzhou South - Wuhan, and the D3088 12:15 Wuhan - Shanghai trains?


Not possible to answer, as you didn't tell us what date you'd like to travel. Watch http://yupiao.info/ for the remaining ticket count, if the numbers become critical low, it might be wise to get yours as soon as possible.


----------



## hmmwv

Silver Swordsman said:


> I've travelled on HSR where parts of the line are in "multiple tunnels", and they were at full speed (300kmh). Not very sure what's going on here. Could it be that the bore diameter for these tunnels are tighter, making the tunnel boom more serious?


Multiple short tunnels are fine, but multiple long tunnels is more likely to cause problem. I have to agree though, that slowing to 80km/h is extremely unlikely to be caused by tunnels, actually I doubt it will slow to that speed at all, probably from 300km/h to 200km/h, but 80? No.



makita09 said:


> No, tunnel boom concerns only area of tunnel cross-section vs the pressure impulse given by a function of speed and the shape of the train nose.
> 
> Trains routinely go through tunnels at 300km/h all over the world.
> 
> I don't know how you think a boom wouldn't dissipate due to an adjacent tunnel?


Of course trains routinely go 300km/h through tunnels around the world, but do they do that when the tunnel is a few kilometers long and the next tunnel is only a couple of hundred meters away? With tunnels of the same diameter, the longer it is the higher pressure will build up inside, similar to a gun barrel


----------



## Nyuszi

feisibuke said:


> Not possible to answer, as you didn't tell us what date you'd like to travel. Watch http://yupiao.info/ for the remaining ticket count, if the numbers become critical low, it might be wise to get yours as soon as possible.


Two months from now. Thx for the link.


----------



## big-dog

CRH pics




























by 迷途小民警


----------



## Silver Swordsman

hmmwv said:


> Multiple short tunnels are fine, but multiple long tunnels is more likely to cause problem. I have to agree though, that slowing to 80km/h is extremely unlikely to be caused by tunnels, actually I doubt it will slow to that speed at all, probably from 300km/h to 200km/h, but 80? No.
> 
> 
> Of course trains routinely go 300km/h through tunnels around the world, but do they do that when the tunnel is a few kilometers long and the next tunnel is only a couple of hundred meters away? With tunnels of the same diameter, the longer it is the higher pressure will build up inside, similar to a gun barrel


I'd still disagree. Tunnel air is considered high pressure, high drag air; even if there was a significant tunnel boom at the end of the tunnel, it would radiate outwards and not into the second tunnel. If we were to do that, the tunnels would have to be less than 50m apart, not hundreds. 

Second, tunnel boom intensity is not determined by the length of the tunnel, but the geometry of the tunnel entrance. Tunnel boom is generated when a train enters the tunnel, the air that was previously pushed aside by the train is suddenly pressurized, and this creates a shockwave that travels down the tunnel at the speed of sound. It is this shockwave that creates "true" tunnel boom. 

That being said, the length of the tunnel is irrelevant. You are right in comparing a tunnel boom to a "gun", a longer barrel doesn't make a louder report. I've stood near tunnel entrances (within 7m), and heard no "true" tunnel boom because European-style tunnel entrances are specifically designed to mitigate such issues. Therefore, the only reason why the trains would slow down in tunnels due to concerns about tunnel boom would be because the tunnel entrance geometry hasn't been optimized.


----------



## makita09

hmmwv said:


> Of course trains routinely go 300km/h through tunnels around the world, but do they do that when the tunnel is a few kilometers long and the next tunnel is only a couple of hundred meters away? With tunnels of the same diameter, the longer it is the higher pressure will build up inside, similar to a gun barrel


If that was a problem and you were the engineer designing it would you handicap your own creation in that way? It would be cheaper to build deeper and in one long tunnel, or cover the open section to be a tunnel, to avoid the revenue loss associated with unnecessary speed restrictions.

And the answer is yes - plenty of ICE lines do this.

I've noticed a slight misunderstanding - multiple tunnels (in succession) vs dual-tube tunnels. So I now get you mean the former.

And +1 to Silver Swordsman - the length of tunnel does not cause a build up. In fact it serves to lower the frequency of the impulse as it exits. (Both the ports in your speakers and organ pipes use this fact as the impulse characteristic is determined by the same physics that determines the resonant frequency of the tube, the larger the length/cross-section the longer the wavelength). The air molecules in the tunnel don't like going from zero to high acceleration, necessary to sustain a high-frequency. The impulse will change over distance/time as a result, the energy is not lost, but is converted to lower grade energy, with a higher entropy i.e. lower frequency and longer wavelength. (Same as earth radiates infra red because it would need to be like an air molecule that likes accelerating quickly in order to re-radiate the sun's energy as UV)

Or another way to look at it is to map all the possible vectors within the tunnel from the source of the impulse. There is one direct journey to the other entrance, but a large number requiring one bounce of the wall, more with two, even more with three, etc. The longer the tunnel the bigger this disparity between the direct and indirect, spreading the energy over time at the exit, resulting in the lower frequency of the impulse.


----------



## FM 2258

big-dog said:


> CRH pics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> by 迷途小民警


This picture is mighty interesting....any idea why a conventional train is hooked up to a high speed train?


----------



## dumbfword

delivering it to the depot for final works?


----------



## makita09

FM 2258 said:


> This picture is mighty interesting....any idea why a conventional train is hooked up to a high speed train?


Most likely because it has a fault, or it is not yet a fully functioning and network-authorised unit.


----------



## saiho

FM 2258 said:


> This picture is mighty interesting....any idea why a conventional train is hooked up to a high speed train?


Conventional passenger carriages were too boring and lack the "cool" factor so they now use trailer CRH carriages on select conventional routes. You should see the ones pulled by diesel trains.


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> This picture is mighty interesting....any idea why a conventional train is hooked up to a high speed train?


This also happens during a HSR's cold rolling test (冷滑试验) where the EMU is pulled to traverse the line without powering itself up.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Cold rolling test? Interesting. What's the point of a cold rolling test?


----------



## stoneybee

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Cold rolling test? Interesting. What's the point of a cold rolling test?


I am no expert here, but I think it is to field test specification and tolerance level. No different than the initial sea trial or shake-down cruise for newly launched ships. 

You can only find out the truth when the "rubber hits the road" so to speak.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

stoneybee said:


> I am no expert here, but I think it is to field test specification and tolerance level. No different than the initial sea trial or shake-down cruise for newly launched ships.
> 
> You can only find out the truth when the "rubber hits the road" so to speak.


Wouldn't they have testing tracks for that?


----------



## big-dog

CRH passing Cangshan, Sichuan Province










by B-Rok小火车


----------



## makita09

Silver Swordsman said:


> Wouldn't they have testing tracks for that?


Test tracks only help so much.


----------



## admns

can someone provide me latest update regarding 600 km/hr CIT500 trains. When they will announce it for public opening.
Additional details can be found here : http://www.carnewschina.com/2011/12...ighty-crh-500-chinas-new-500kmh-record-train/


----------



## Sopomon

admns said:


> can someone provide me latest update regarding 600 km/hr CIT500 trains. When they will announce it for public opening.
> Additional details can be found here : http://www.carnewschina.com/2011/12...ighty-crh-500-chinas-new-500kmh-record-train/


It seems to have slipped off the radar for the time being, this is the place where any news on that kind of develpoment is quickly posted.


----------



## FM 2258

admns said:


> can someone provide me latest update regarding 600 km/hr CIT500 trains. When they will announce it for public opening.
> Additional details can be found here : http://www.carnewschina.com/2011/12...ighty-crh-500-chinas-new-500kmh-record-train/


I really want to know more about this project as well. I hope they've been able work with physics to have a train that runs economically at 500km/h. At this point I can only hope and dream. I'm not an engineer so I have no answers. :cheers:


----------



## hkskyline

By *荆棘鸟* from a Chinese photography forum :


----------



## admns

hi , can someone also provide me latest update regarding 1000 km/hr chinese maglev trains. 
Additional details can be found here : http://blog.chinatravel.net/planes-trains/1000km-per-hour-maglev-train-3d-express-coach.html


----------



## admns

http://blog.chinatravel.net/planes-trains/1000km-per-hour-maglev-train-3d-express-coach.html
 double post


----------



## timo9

greenlion said:


> 据广铁集团客运部门介绍，武广、广深港高铁调图后，共安排开行动车组列车117对，其中直通动车组列车68对，管内动车组列车列车49对。各区段对数为：武汉～岳阳东间68对，岳阳东～长沙南间70对，长沙南～广州南间89对，广州南～深圳北间48对。
> 
> 直通动车组列车68对
> 
> 1、北京西～深圳北1对，车次：G71/2。这是我国目前运行里程最远的高铁列车，行驶距离超过3000公里。
> 
> 2、西安北～深圳北2对，车次：G824/1 G822/3、G828/5 G826/7。
> 
> 3、郑州东～深圳北2对，车次：G73～G76。
> 
> 4、武汉～深圳北10对，车次：G77/8、G1001～G1018。
> 
> 5、北京西～广州南2对，车次：G79～G82。
> 
> 6、西安北～广州南5对，车次：G98/5 G96/7、G831～G846。
> 
> 7、太原～广州南1对，车次：G624/1 G622/3。
> 
> 8、石家庄～广州南1对，车次：G531/2。
> 
> 9、郑州（东）～广州南5对，车次：G93/4、G541～G548。
> 
> 10、信阳东～广州南2对，车次：G551～G554。
> 
> 11、武汉～广州南32对（含“D”字头2对），车次：G1101～G1160、D2101～D2104。
> 
> 12、北京西～长沙南4对，车次：G83/4、G501～G506。
> 
> 13、西安北～长沙南1对，车次：G854/1 G852/3。
> 
> 管内动车组列车49对
> 
> 1、长沙南～深圳北10对，车次：G6001～G6020。
> 
> 2、广州南～深圳北23对，车次：G6201～G6246。
> 
> 3 、岳阳东～广州南2对，车次：G6131～G6134。
> 
> 4、长沙南～广州南14对（含“D”字头2对），车次：G6101～G6124、D7801～D7804。


Oh ok i understand now


----------



## chornedsnorkack

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Do these *D* trains run on the 350km/h line from Shanghai to Nanjing or the slower freight line next to the high speed line? I remember seeing a video on Youtube with a CRH1 and CRH2 running on the Shanghai-Nanjing line showing the 350km/h railway still under construction.


They run on all 3 lines.

For there are 3 parallel lines between Shanghai and Nanjing:
Old railway, opened in 1908. By the 6th Speedup Campaign in 2007, parts of it were upgraded to 250 km/h, other sections were under 200 km/h.
An "intercity" railway between Shanghai and Nanjing. Built for 350 km/h - actually operated at that speed from opening in July 2010 till 1st Slowdown Campaign in July 2011.
Shanghai-Nanjing South section of Shanghai-Beijing High Speed Railway. Built for 380 km/h, has never been faster than 300 km/h.


----------



## Busfotodotnl

Recently, i was looking for a timetable of the CRH-services. Unfortunately, is wasn't able to find it on the internet. Someone?


----------



## China Hand

FM 2258 said:


> Do these *D* trains run on the 350km/h line from Shanghai to Nanjing or the slower freight line next to the high speed line? I remember seeing a video on Youtube with a CRH1 and CRH2 running on the Shanghai-Nanjing line showing the 350km/h railway still under construction.


Yeah, they run on all three lines. Sometimes G trains will run on D tracks at 200 kph or lower. For example the line from ShiJiaZhuang to Taiyuan is only 250kph rated and has D trains as well as G trains. The G trains run at 300kph to SJZ and then slow on the way west to Taiyuan. The D trains run slower the entire way and also slow on the way west to Taiyuan.

When D and G trains get close in, for example to Zhengzhou old station, sometimes they run on the same plain vanilla rail as everything else at slow speeds up to the station.

Other times, Wuhan, they run on G only lines and cruise into the station on 350 kph rail up to the platform.

These fast trains can run on any 1435mm gauge in the country. They just have to slow down to do it.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Busfotodotnl said:


> Recently, i was looking for a timetable of the CRH-services. Unfortunately, is wasn't able to find it on the internet. Someone?


What type of schedule?

It is not a general overview, but I find this informative:
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/china-trains/


----------



## China Hand

Busfotodotnl said:


> Recently, i was looking for a timetable of the CRH-services. Unfortunately, is wasn't able to find it on the internet. Someone?


Many sites.

ChinaTrainGuide.com
yupiao.info
12306.cn


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*D train top speed*

What is the actual top speed of D trains?

I have some suspicions.

For example, on Beijing-Jinan

All nonstop G trains (16 of them) cover the distance in 1:32.
1 stop is often done in 1:38 or 1:39, but sometimes takes longer.
The only G train that makes all 4 stops takes 2:16!

Among the D trains one (D331) covers the distance in 1:46 with 2 stops - quite reasonable for a G train. And 3 trains - D401 to D405 - manage to make all 4 stops in 1:59!

The other D trains travel 2:10 to 2:47.

Considering the examples of D331 and D401-D405, do D trains actually travel any slower than G trains?


----------



## feisibuke

chornedsnorkack said:


> What is the actual top speed of D trains?
> 
> I have some suspicions.
> 
> For example, on Beijing-Jinan
> 
> All nonstop G trains (16 of them) cover the distance in 1:32.
> 1 stop is often done in 1:38 or 1:39, but sometimes takes longer.
> The only G train that makes all 4 stops takes 2:16!
> 
> Among the D trains one (D331) covers the distance in 1:46 with 2 stops - quite reasonable for a G train. And 3 trains - D401 to D405 - manage to make all 4 stops in 1:59!
> 
> The other D trains travel 2:10 to 2:47.
> 
> Considering the examples of D331 and D401-D405, do D trains actually travel any slower than G trains?


Last month I was on D404, the top speed was 311 km/h.


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> What is the actual top speed of D trains?


200 kph, 80%-85% of the rated speed, just like the 350/380kph lines at 294-310. On tunnels, mountains and such perhaps slower, 145-150.

250 rated lines often max out right at 199-200, precisely.
350 rated lines often max out right at 299-300, precisely. They get some leeway and can increase up to 310 but not for long and not often. Usually 300, exactly, on (one example) the run from Shanghai to Beijing. Think of it as automobile cruise control. The software permits 300, the driver puts it up to speed and cruises as he and the other two in the cab watch the railway ahead.

G trains often run slower as well in tunnels. The Xi'an-Zhengzhou G trains often slow to 80 - 140 kph between Weinan and SanMenXia and then push it all the way to 304 to Luoyang and Zhengzhou.

It's a simple matter to GPS the trip or just time it and look at the distance on a timetable. The trains travel at the speed you see displayed in the cars, nothing suspicious about it. I have timed many trips in detail using a stopwatch, mobile phone and then looking at timetable distances later.

It all matches up as they claim.

2 years ago the G trains to Guangzhou were at 347-355 on the early runs and then the wear and tear and electricity bills came due (!). They can go that fast, easily, quietly and smoothly. I took 2 rides at that time. Smooth, flawless, so fast!

I was on one of the Wuhan-Guangzhou South trains at 355. 3h13minutes, an AVERAGE speed of 300kph on the dot. Wow. It was quite the experience to do that.

These trains can go that fast, but as has been mentioned so many times, rail wear, wheel wear, bogie wear, pantograph and catenary wear, and the electricity bill all raise the cost too high to run at those speeds. The French, Germans, Spanish, Japanese, Koreans and Italians all have the same issues. Physics. Over 310-320, problems.


----------



## feisibuke

China Hand said:


> G trains often run slower as well in tunnels. The Xi'an-Zhengzhou G trains often slow to 80 - 140 kph between Weinan and SanMenXia and then push it all the way to 304 to Luoyang and Zhengzhou.


No. It's not due to tunnels. Zhengzhou–Xi'an line has recently suffered some technical difficulties and speed limit on some sections has been cut down for safety reasons. Tunnels do not have impact on speed.

Here is a record on February 15, Xi'an North to Beijing West:


----------



## foxmulder

I love speed profiles like that, do you have more of them for other routes?

It is great to see almost constant maximum speed.


----------



## FM 2258

feisibuke said:


> No. It's not due to tunnels. Zhengzhou–Xi'an line has recently suffered some technical difficulties and speed limit on some sections has been cut down for safety reasons. Tunnels do not have impact on speed.
> 
> Here is a record on February 15, Xi'an North to Beijing West:


I'm curious....what are the safety reasons?


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> I'm curious....what are the safety reasons?


Right before the Chinese New Year there were a series of delays due to technical problems caused by weather, there were reports saying smog is the issue but I fail to see the relationship.


----------



## China Hand

That graph is what I experienced, too. Speed is fine to Weinan and then as it approaches Huashan North it slows and does not get back up to speed until it passes SanMenXia South.

Notice the dip to ~80, I can vouch that is indeed the speed at that section of rail.

That section runs through many tunnels along the Yellow River as it skirts Shanxi Province. Note the slow grind down from SMX to Zhengzhou as well. I experienced the same as the train slows on to conventional rail into some Zhengzhou terminii.

In reverse it will gradually speed up from 240 to 300 if you ride it westbound.

Very odd and unknown why this is.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> 200 kph, 80%-85% of the rated speed, just like the 350/380kph lines at 294-310. On tunnels, mountains and such perhaps slower, 145-150.
> 
> 250 rated lines often max out right at 199-200, precisely.
> 350 rated lines often max out right at 299-300, precisely. They get some leeway and can increase up to 310 but not for long and not often. Usually 300, exactly, on (one example) the run from Shanghai to Beijing. Think of it as automobile cruise control. The software permits 300, the driver puts it up to speed and cruises as he and the other two in the cab watch the railway ahead.





China Hand said:


> 2 years ago the G trains to Guangzhou were at 347-355 on the early runs and then the wear and tear and electricity bills came due (!). They can go that fast, easily, quietly and smoothly. I took 2 rides at that time. Smooth, flawless, so fast!
> 
> I was on one of the Wuhan-Guangzhou South trains at 355. 3h13minutes, an AVERAGE speed of 300kph on the dot. Wow. It was quite the experience to do that.
> 
> These trains can go that fast, but as has been mentioned so many times, rail wear, wheel wear, bogie wear, pantograph and catenary wear, and the electricity bill all raise the cost too high to run at those speeds. The French, Germans, Spanish, Japanese, Koreans and Italians all have the same issues. Physics. Over 310-320, problems.


But not between 200 and 250.

Could it make sense to speed up the 250 km/h lines from 200 km/h back to 250 km/h, even if the 350 km/h lines stay at 300 km/h or are sped up to 320 km/h only? Like it was between First Slowdown Campaign and Second Slowdown Campaign?


----------



## joseph1951

hmmwv said:


> Right before the Chinese New Year there were a series of delays due to technical problems caused by weather, there were reports saying smog is the issue but I fail to see the relationship.


From the graph posted the train speed drops from 300 km/h to about 80 km/h, 110/120- km/h, 150 km/h , in 100km stretch. 
This is not good for a fast train, running on HS line.

Every time the trains drop the speed from 300 km/h to below 200km/h (lets's say 80 km/h) there is an increase in the travelling time of about 10 minutes (5 minutes to accelerate from 100 to 300 and five minutes to slow down from 300 to 100).

Perhaps, on this HS line there are some temporary speed restrictions due to some kind of work/modifications......


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> But not between 200 and 250.
> 
> Could it make sense to speed up the 250 km/h lines from 200 km/h back to 250 km/h, even if the 350 km/h lines stay at 300 km/h or are sped up to 320 km/h only? Like it was between First Slowdown Campaign and Second Slowdown Campaign?


I suspect that towards the end (2018) of this phase of the MOR CRH rollout, that the MOR will then submit their upgrade plan for the rest of the railways and that a large part of that will be to upgrade the rails, stations and trainsets of the N, K, L, T and Z trains.

Pushing those trains from 120/160 up to 200/250 would make perfect sense in light of what the MOR have learned with the 380/350/310/300's etc.

It will not look good when China has 16k kms of 320 rail and they still have trainsets, stations and track that looks like it is from the 1950's.

My guess is after they rollout the CRH that they then take that knowledge and upgrade the rest of the system. All or most of it...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> I suspect that towards the end (2018) of this phase of the MOR CRH rollout, that the MOR will then submit their upgrade plan for the rest of the railways and that a large part of that will be to upgrade the rails, stations and trainsets of the N, K, L, T and Z trains.
> 
> Pushing those trains from 120/160 up to 200/250 would make perfect sense in light of what the MOR have learned with the 380/350/310/300's etc.
> 
> It will not look good when China has 16k kms of 320 rail and they still have trainsets, stations and track that looks like it is from the 1950's.


I am afraid that a lot of lines are not suitable for 200/250.

But even at 120/160, they could do far better!

Beijing-Shanghai:
D319 - 1318 km, 9:08 makes 144 km/h, 17 stops makes 73 km distance
D313 - 1454 km, 11:41 makes 124 km/h, 2 stops makes 485 km distance
T109 - 1463 km, 14:22 makes 102 km/h, 9 stops makes 146 km distance
1461 - 1463 km, 20:10 makes 72 km/h, 28 stops makes 50 km distance

But the top speed of 200 km/h... even with a stop each 50 km, a train could do better than 72 km/h average!


----------



## admns

*Average speed of trains*

to summerise the speed of trains i have done some research to find average speed all catagories of trains:

*K trains* ( aka ordinary express ) have average speed of *50km/hr*.

*T trains *(aka superfast express ) have average speed of *80km/hr*.

*D trains*( aka slow speed hsr ) have average speed of *160km/hr*.

*G trains* ( aka high speed hsr ) have average speed of *250-300km/hr* [according to routes and specific trains.][*ONLY AVAILABLE IN SOME SPECIFIC ROUTES]

lines constructed for 350km/hr -10,000.
Lines under construction for 350km/hr -10,000.
(Approx.)


----------



## admns

China Hand said:


> It will not look good when China has 16k kms of 320 rail and they still have trainsets, stations and track that looks like it is from the 1950's.
> .


I agree with this statement. And this is an example station.


----------



## Peloso

China Hand said:


> It will not look good when China has 16k kms of 320 rail and they still have trainsets, stations and track that looks like it is from the 1950's.


On the contrary, they often look cool


----------



## chornedsnorkack

admns said:


> I agree with this statement. And this is an example station.


Compare with some modern stations - low speed, not high speed - in Germany:

Rickling (population 3300)
http://zierke.com/shasta_route/picpages/rickling-3-o.html

And another station:
http://zierke.com/shasta_route/picpages/3476.html

How many stations like these does China need, in villages/small towns of a few thousand inhabitants?

These stations generally have at least one train per hour - often two. Not one or two trains per day. But the trains themselves - you can see the train of a single car and two doors a side....


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## gramercy

it won't look good, until they refocus on those rail projects, and also thousands and thousands of kms of subways and tramways


----------



## laojang

admns said:


> to summerise the speed of trains i have done some research to find average speed all catagories of trains:
> 
> *K trains* ( aka ordinary express ) have average speed of *50km/hr*.
> 
> *T trains *(aka superfast express ) have average speed of *80km/hr*.
> 
> *D trains*( aka slow speed hsr ) have average speed of *160km/hr*.
> 
> *G trains* ( aka high speed hsr ) have average speed of *250-300km/hr* [according to routes and specific trains.][*ONLY AVAILABLE IN SOME SPECIFIC ROUTES]
> 
> lines constructed for 350km/hr -10,000.
> Lines under construction for 350km/hr -10,000.
> (Approx.)


The average speed for most K trains including stops is around 60km-70km/h. See for example http://www.huochepiao.com/.

Laojang


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Compare with some modern stations - low speed, not high speed - in Germany:
> 
> Rickling (population 3300)
> http://zierke.com/shasta_route/picpages/rickling-3-o.html
> 
> And another station:
> http://zierke.com/shasta_route/picpages/3476.html
> 
> How many stations like these does China need, in villages/small towns of a few thousand inhabitants?
> 
> These stations generally have at least one train per hour - often two. Not one or two trains per day. But the trains themselves - you can see the train of a single car and two doors a side....


Here are some small stations in Heilongjiang, a lot of those villages are served by primitive commuter trains, often a couple in the morning and a couple in the afternoon to bring people to and from larger townships, the train tickets are extremely cheap but they use those stripped out old Type 25 carriages that look like trains in India.
http://xuefengshi2000.blog.163.com/blog/static/665895201272602310945/


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> Here are some small stations in Heilongjiang, a lot of those villages are served by primitive commuter trains, often a couple in the morning and a couple in the afternoon to bring people to and from larger townships,


This is the region where train traffic starts to get useful, yes.


hmmwv said:


> http://xuefengshi2000.blog.163.com/blog/static/665895201272602310945/


Two questions:
What is the most common standard for train floor height on these commuter railways?
What are these small station buildings used for, currently? Like - ticket sales desk? Waiting halls? Toilets open to public? Working rooms for railway personnel?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Two questions:
> What is the most common standard for train floor height on these commuter railways?
> What are these small station buildings used for, currently? Like - ticket sales desk? Waiting halls? Toilets open to public? Working rooms for railway personnel?


Those are simply old 25B carriages retired from mainstream service used as commuter rail, they are primitive trains for the peasants, so there is no special consideration whatsoever to make them suitable as commuter trains. From what I know the station house are usually used as ticket office and railway personnel's offices, most of them also has a small counter to sell snacks and drinks, I'm not sure whether they have restrooms, I assume the passengers probably can just do their business outside the station wall in the field.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> What is the actual top speed of D trains?
> 
> I have some suspicions.
> 
> For example, on Beijing-Jinan
> 
> All nonstop G trains (16 of them) cover the distance in 1:32.
> 1 stop is often done in 1:38 or 1:39, but sometimes takes longer.
> The only G train that makes all 4 stops takes 2:16!
> 
> Among the D trains one (D331) covers the distance in 1:46 with 2 stops - quite reasonable for a G train. And 3 trains - D401 to D405 - manage to make all 4 stops in 1:59!
> 
> The other D trains travel 2:10 to 2:47.
> 
> Considering the examples of D331 and D401-D405, do D trains actually travel any slower than G trains?


I think D trains used on Beijing-Shanghai line are all capable of doing 300km/h, and they do travel at that speed. So it only depends on the number of stations they stop, if they stop at the same number of stations with the same durations, then they will match G trains' speed, in occasions may even exceed G trains.


----------



## China Hand

Peloso said:


> On the contrary, they often look cool


They look cool and Retro, but the trains travel at 60 kph and people will want faster travel.


----------



## China Hand

admns said:


> to summerise the speed of trains i have done some research to find average speed all catagories of trains:
> 
> *K trains* ( aka ordinary express ) have average speed of *50km/hr*.
> 
> *T trains *(aka superfast express ) have average speed of *80km/hr*.
> 
> *D trains*( aka slow speed hsr ) have average speed of *160km/hr*.
> 
> *G trains* ( aka high speed hsr ) have average speed of *250-300km/hr* [according to routes and specific trains.][*ONLY AVAILABLE IN SOME SPECIFIC ROUTES]
> 
> lines constructed for 350km/hr -10,000.
> Lines under construction for 350km/hr -10,000.
> (Approx.)


My estimates based upon riding trains are a bit higher.

*K, L and N trains* have average speed of *65-75km/hr*.

*T trains *(aka superfast express ) have average speed of *90km/hr*.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> Those are simply old 25B carriages retired from mainstream service used as commuter rail, they are primitive trains for the peasants, so there is no special consideration whatsoever to make them suitable as commuter trains.


Where specifically in Heilongjiang are these stations?

Heilongjiang is generally a poor province, but Daqing is one of the richest cities in China.

There is already a high speed railway Harbin-Changchun-Dalian. Between Harbin and Changchun, Fuyu North, 98 km from Harbin West, is already outside Heilongjiang border in Jilin, but Shuangcheng North, 40 km from Harbin West, is in Heilongjiang. 

What is Shuangcheng North station like?

It is late February now. The sun is getting higher, and days longer.

Has it been disclosed when exactly in Spring shall the Harbin-Shuangcheng-Dalian high speed railway be sped up from 200 km/h to 300 km/h?

Also, on the old railway, Harbin-Qiqihar is 288 km. Daqing is 159 km from Harbin, and 129 km from Qiqihar.

How is the current state of progress of Harbin-Qiqihar high speed railway?

In which year shall Harbin-Qiqihar high speed railway open for service? How many stations shall it have, and what is the design speed? Shall the line be suitable for CRH6?


----------



## big-dog

Nanjing HSR dept










by 中华火车迷部落@weibo


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## UD2

Just one quick comment

I think the T (Te Kuai)in T trains stand for Special or Especially, as opposed to Super or Very. So the best translation for Special Fast would actually be Express.

And the K in K trains I think is just Fast.


----------



## UD2

China Hand said:


> I
> 
> It will not look good when China has 16k kms of 320 rail and they still have trainsets, stations and track that looks like it is from the 1950's.


Why not? If all that the old tracks are going to run are regular speed trains or slow freight trains, I would suspect that the tracks that "look like" they are from the 1950's would serve its purpose fine. No point spending money on something that works. 

If you think 1950 is bad, here in Canada we not only have tracks that "looks like" it is from the 1900's, We actually have tracks (especially signal's) that are from the 1900's.


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## hmmwv

A major expansion of the existing Nanjing Station is underway with planned completion in 2014. It integrates the six tracks dedicated to Shanghai-Nanjing ICL with a new station house, subway connection, underground parking, and a long distance bus terminal.

It's one of the few downtown stations in a major Chinese city that still has room to expand, the new station house separate boarding of HSR and conventional trains, allow the ICL more room to grow. A large underground transit hall will be build for Metro Line 3 and Line 9. The existing Nanjing East Bus Terminal will also be moved to this new location.

After completion next year the new Nanjing Station will sit at the bottom of the Hongshan Zoo and face Xuanwuhu Lake, arguably one of the most scenic railway stations in China.


----------



## China Hand

UD2 said:


> Why not? If all that the old tracks are going to run are regular speed trains or slow freight trains, I would suspect that the tracks that "look like" they are from the 1950's would serve its purpose fine. No point spending money on something that works.
> 
> If you think 1950 is bad, here in Canada we not only have tracks that "looks like" it is from the 1900's, We actually have tracks (especially signal's) that are from the 1900's.


Well, frankly, comparing Western Hemisphere rail (trainset and railway stock often 60-120+ years old) to NE Asia HSR is not very wise.

China and Japan and Korea have modern, sometimes state of the art, rail and the USA, Mexico and Canada have...museum pieces that function. That's great with wide open spaces but China has crowded right of ways and upgrading those 19th C. travel speeds to above 60kph average would be very smart considering the modern CRH travels at 4 to 5 X that avg speed.

They are NOT working and most slower trains get stuck behind (very necessary) freight and dry bulk haul loads.

China needs to double regular rail handling due to the wealth effect and more citizens traveling more often. How they will do this is currently unknown but would logically be the next step after this round of CRH winds down in 3 to 5 years.


----------



## hkskyline

China Hand said:


> Well, frankly, comparing Western Hemisphere rail (trainset and railway stock often 60-120+ years old) to NE Asia HSR is not very wise.
> 
> China and Japan and Korea have modern, sometimes state of the art, rail and the USA, Mexico and Canada have...museum pieces that function. That's great with wide open spaces but China has crowded right of ways and upgrading those 19th C. travel speeds to above 60kph average would be very smart considering the modern CRH travels at 4 to 5 X that avg speed.
> 
> They are NOT working and most slower trains get stuck behind (very necessary) freight and dry bulk haul loads.
> 
> China needs to double regular rail handling due to the wealth effect and more citizens traveling more often. How they will do this is currently unknown but would logically be the next step after this round of CRH winds down in 3 to 5 years.


I think the current CRH tracks can handle far more capacity. So far, frequencies on the major lines can still be bunched up further, like what I've seen in Taiwan (departures every 10-20 minutes).


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> I think the current CRH tracks can handle far more capacity. So far, frequencies on the major lines can still be bunched up further, like what I've seen in Taiwan (departures every 10-20 minutes).


Like or even further. THSR is not full. For example, at morning rush hour, between 9:00 and 10:00, there are 5 trains in the hour from Taibei towards Taichung - departing 9:00, 9:18, 9:30 (express), 9:36 and 9:54 (the second express).

During the same rush hour, Tokaido Shinkansen has 10 trains from Tokyo towards Nagoya:
9:00 - Nozomi to Osaka
9:03 - Hikari to Okayama
9:10 - Nozomi to Hakata
9:20 - Nozomi to Osaka
9:26 - Kodama to Nagoya
9:30 - Nozomi to Hakata
9:33 - Hikari to Osaka
9:40 - Nozomi to Osaka
9:50 - Nozomi to Hiroshima
9:56 - Kodama to Osaka

Tokaido Shinkansen widely is regarded as full. Since all Tokaido Shinkansen trains are 16 cars while all THSR cars are 12 cars, THSR has 60 cars at rush hour, but Tokaido Shinkansen 160.

Beijing-Jinan has 3 trains departing between 9:00 and 10:00, and 7 trains departing between 8:00 and 9:00:
8:00 (express), 8:05, 8:10, 8:15, 8:22 (D), 8:38 and 8:53 (D).
Beijing-Shijiazhuang has just 4 between 8:00 and 9:00:
8:00, 8:21, 8:30 and 8:43.

So, the main lines of China do have some spare space, and frequencies could be increased.

But this still does not serve enough stations!
And even if infill stations were built on existing CRH lines, this does not serve destinations off the CRH lines.

So speeding up the slow lines is still necessary.


----------



## hhzz

China's high - speed railway line linking Beijing and Shanghai has recorded over 100 million passenger trips since it started operation in June 2011, railway authorities announced on Thursday.
Built with an investment of 217.6 billion yuan (34.7 billion US dollars), the 1,318-kmrailway linking Beijing and Shanghai has shortened the travel time between the two major cities to about five hours from the previous eight hours or more.


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## hhzz

Delete


----------



## FM 2258

admns said:


> I agree with this statement. And this is an example station.







big-dog said:


> Nanjing HSR dept
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> by 中华火车迷部落@weibo


Both beautiful pictures, I feel that the old looks just as good as the new!


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## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> China's high - speed railway line linking Beijing and Shanghai has recorded over 100 million passenger trips since it started operation in June 2011, railway authorities announced on Thursday.


Meaning 1 year 8 months.

Tokaido Shinkansen needed over 2 years, from October 1964 till sometime in 1967, to record 100 million passengers.


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## China Hand

hkskyline said:


> I think the current CRH tracks can handle far more capacity. So far, frequencies on the major lines can still be bunched up further, like what I've seen in Taiwan (departures every 10-20 minutes).


True, I think this will be a case of learn, increase frequency, learn, repeat.

Still, the old slow trains need to double up on capacity for those who cannot afford them. Double decker cars, more frequent trains, speed increases would all help but freight bottlenecks it all.


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## Silver Swordsman

chornedsnorkack said:


> Meaning 1 year 8 months.
> 
> Tokaido Shinkansen needed over 2 years, from October 1964 till sometime in 1967, to record 100 million passengers.


So, there is a possibility that Beijjing-Shanghai will become the most heavily-used HSR line in the world...


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## foxmulder

It is more like an eventuality.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

Silver Swordsman said:


> So, there is a possibility that Beijjing-Shanghai will become the most heavily-used HSR line in the world...





foxmulder said:


> It is more like an eventuality.


It depends on the frequency of how many trains can depart within a certain amount of time.
Shinkansen has 13 trains depart within an hour or one per 4 and a half minutes. When the Shinkansen inaugurated in 1964 it was less then one per 15 minutes so there has been a giant leap there.


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## chornedsnorkack

SamuraiBlue said:


> It depends on the frequency of how many trains can depart within a certain amount of time.
> Shinkansen has 13 trains depart within an hour or one per 4 and a half minutes.


Which station, direction and hour?

From Tokyo towards Nagoya I find at most 11 trains, between 18:00 and 19:00 - the usual 10 hourly trains, plus an extra Kodama at 18:37. But where do you find 13 trains?


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## hkskyline

A viaduct is seen over farmland in Huzhou, east China's Zhejiang Province, Feb. 28, 2013. The 150-kilometer Hangzhou-Ningbo high-speed railway linking Hangzhou and Ningbo, two hub cities in Zhejiang, commenced its integration test here on Friday. Once put into operation on July 2013 as expected, the high-speed railway that designed at a top speed of 350km/h, would reduce the travel time to 36 minitues, a quarter time of the current two-hour journey. (Xinhua/Tan Jin) 










Engineers from China Academy of Railway Sciences collect data for the integration test in Huzhou, east China's Zhejiang Province, Feb. 26, 2013. The 150-kilometer Hangzhou-Ningbo high-speed railway linking Hangzhou and Ningbo, two hub cities in Zhejiang, commenced its integration test here on Friday. Once put into operation on July 2013 as expected, the high-speed railway that designed at a top speed of 350km/h, would reduce the travel time to 36 minitues, a quarter time of the current two-hour journey. (Xinhua/Tan Jin) 










Construction workers and engineers examine rail tracks in the Huzhou Railway Station in Huzhou, east China's Zhejiang Province, March. 16, 2012. The 150-kilometer Hangzhou-Ningbo high-speed railway linking Hangzhou and Ningbo, two hub cities in Zhejiang, commenced its integration test here on Friday. Once put into operation on July 2013 as expected, the high-speed railway that designed at a top speed of 350km/h, would reduce the travel time to 36 minitues, a quarter time of the current two-hour journey. (Xinhua/Tan Jin)


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## luhai

Silver Swordsman said:


> So, there is a possibility that Beijjing-Shanghai will become the most heavily-used HSR line in the world...


I contributed to 4 such trips. However, I believe Beijing-Zhengzhou-Wuhan-Changsha-Guangzhou-Hong Kong will be more popular. More big city along the way than Beijing-Tianjin-Jinan-Nanjing-Shanghai.


----------



## Silly_Walks

luhai said:


> I contributed to 4 such trips. However, I believe Beijing-Zhengzhou-Wuhan-Changsha-Guangzhou-Hong Kong will be more popular. More big city along the way than Beijing-Tianjin-Jinan-Nanjing-Shanghai.



But I think there will be more passengers to do the entire Beijing-Shanghai, then will do the entire Beijing-Guangzhou or Beijing-Hong Kong, because travel time for those distances is just too high.


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## FM 2258

hkskyline said:


> http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2013-03/01/132201750_11n.jpg
> 
> A viaduct is seen over farmland in Huzhou, east China's Zhejiang Province, Feb. 28, 2013. The 150-kilometer Hangzhou-Ningbo high-speed railway linking Hangzhou and Ningbo, two hub cities in Zhejiang, commenced its integration test here on Friday. Once put into operation on July 2013 as expected, the high-speed railway that designed at a top speed of 350km/h, would reduce the travel time to 36 minitues, a quarter time of the current two-hour journey. (Xinhua/Tan Jin)
> http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2013-03/01/132201750_51n.jpg
> 
> Engineers from China Academy of Railway Sciences collect data for the integration test in Huzhou, east China's Zhejiang Province, Feb. 26, 2013. The 150-kilometer Hangzhou-Ningbo high-speed railway linking Hangzhou and Ningbo, two hub cities in Zhejiang, commenced its integration test here on Friday. Once put into operation on July 2013 as expected, the high-speed railway that designed at a top speed of 350km/h, would reduce the travel time to 36 minitues, a quarter time of the current two-hour journey. (Xinhua/Tan Jin)
> http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2013-03/01/132201750_61n.jpg
> 
> Construction workers and engineers examine rail tracks in the Huzhou Railway Station in Huzhou, east China's Zhejiang Province, March. 16, 2012. The 150-kilometer Hangzhou-Ningbo high-speed railway linking Hangzhou and Ningbo, two hub cities in Zhejiang, commenced its integration test here on Friday. Once put into operation on July 2013 as expected, the high-speed railway that designed at a top speed of 350km/h, would reduce the travel time to 36 minitues, a quarter time of the current two-hour journey. (Xinhua/Tan Jin)


Cool pictures. Why are they showing pictures of Huzhou when that town isn't between Hangzhou and Ningbo? Huzhou is north west of Hangzhou according to Google maps.


----------



## Bannor

^^ Maybe they are confusing it with the Nanjing - Hangzhou line?


----------



## big-dog

*3.1 Hangzhou-Ningbo HSR starts testing run with CRH380D*

Length: 149.89km, 7 stations
Design speed: 350km/h
Cost: 21.2 bln yuan
Construction: April 2009 ~ March 2013

The new constructed HSR will open in July 2013.



















metrofans.sh.cn


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## Silver Swordsman

luhai said:


> I contributed to 4 such trips. However, I believe Beijing-Zhengzhou-Wuhan-Changsha-Guangzhou-Hong Kong will be more popular. More big city along the way than Beijing-Tianjin-Jinan-Nanjing-Shanghai.


You also have to consider the purchasing power of the population. China has a very small middle class and upper class compared to the lower class. Beijing-Shanghai has good market value because most of the purchasing power is there.


----------



## FM 2258

big-dog said:


> *3.1 Hangzhou-Ningbo HSR starts testing run with CRH380D*
> 
> Length: 149.89km, 7 stations
> Design speed: 350km/h
> Cost: 21.2 bln yuan
> Construction: April 2009 ~ March 2013
> 
> The new constructed HSR will open in July 2013.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> metrofans.sh.cn



This is awesome! I wonder if they plan to start running the CRH380D on this line. I bet it's nice to have an entire line free of traffic for a few months to test new trains.


----------



## luhai

Silly_Walks said:


> But I think there will be more passengers to do the entire Beijing-Shanghai, then will do the entire Beijing-Guangzhou or Beijing-Hong Kong, because travel time for those distances is just too high.


Indeed, bulk of Beijing-Guangzhou travel will be from central province cities to and from Beijing or Guangzhou. There is a lot of travel needs in that area, and it makes the bulk of spring time travel rush.


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## hkskyline

Silver Swordsman said:


> You also have to consider the purchasing power of the population. China has a very small middle class and upper class compared to the lower class. Beijing-Shanghai has good market value because most of the purchasing power is there.


Small in proportion but huge in absolute numbers. The size of China's middle class is around 300 million, which is a gigantic number. Considering Beijing and Shanghai are the key government and economic centres amongst the 300 million, I'm not at all surprised the HSR line will become the busiest in the world.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/04/25/news/economy/china-middle-class/index.htm


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## China Hand

hkskyline said:


> Small in proportion but huge in absolute numbers. The size of China's middle class is around 300 million, which is a gigantic number.


It is also growing at a visible pace year over year. I can see this from 5 years ago to present, with ease.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> Small in proportion but huge in absolute numbers. The size of China's middle class is around 300 million, which is a gigantic number. Considering Beijing and Shanghai are the key government and economic centres amongst the 300 million, I'm not at all surprised the HSR line will become the busiest in the world.
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/2012/04/25/news/economy/china-middle-class/index.htm


Especially since the third centre, Shenzhen, is somewhat more distant from either Beijing or Shanghai.

What would the distance be Guangzhou-Changsha-Nanchang-Hangzhou-Shanghai when Changsha-Nanchang-Hangzhou high speed railway shall have opened?


----------



## China Hand

Drove by the Datong line today and scores of workers ascending to the track bed to work on ballast-less installs (I believe). Articulated concrete pumper trucks at the ready. No rail being laid that was visible.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

Pics or it didn't happen.


----------



## Sunfuns

Silver Swordsman said:


> You also have to consider the purchasing power of the population. China has a very small middle class and upper class compared to the lower class. Beijing-Shanghai has good market value because most of the purchasing power is there.


Hong Kong is probably richer than both Shanghai and Beijing. Are there still some restrictions for mainland Chinese for travel there?


----------



## Silver Swordsman

Sunfuns said:


> Hong Kong is probably richer than both Shanghai and Beijing. Are there still some restrictions for mainland Chinese for travel there?


Hong Kong's house pricing went up due to the mass influx of Mainlanders (btw, it's very easy to go to HK now, from the Mainlaind), but Hong Kong is probably still not as rich as Beijing and Shanghai. Those two cities are the financial and economic hubs of the entire nation. True, Hong Kong is an international trade hub, but it is one city compared to a country. Besides, it seems that most HongKongers seem reluctant to go into China. 

*Observations from a newcomer...


----------



## Sunfuns

Silver Swordsman said:


> Hong Kong's house pricing went up due to the mass influx of Mainlanders (btw, it's very easy to go to HK now, from the Mainlaind), but Hong Kong is probably still not as rich as Beijing and Shanghai. Those two cities are the financial and economic hubs of the entire nation. True, Hong Kong is an international trade hub, but it is one city compared to a country. Besides, it seems that most HongKongers seem reluctant to go into China.
> 
> *Observations from a newcomer...


Right, but how about average incomes in Hong Kong versus Shanghai or Beijing (including migrant workers)? Never been to Hong Kong, but my understanding was that the percentage of middle class is significantly higher there.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Sunfuns said:


> Hong Kong is probably richer than both Shanghai and Beijing. Are there still some restrictions for mainland Chinese for travel there?


Hong Kong might be rich, but that doesn't mean a train from Hong Kong-Beijing will be busier than Shanghai-Beijing, which is basically what this discussion was about: which will be the busiest HSR corridor in China?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Silly_Walks said:


> Hong Kong might be rich, but that doesn't mean a train from Hong Kong-Beijing will be busier than Shanghai-Beijing, which is basically what this discussion was about: which will be the busiest HSR corridor in China?


Which will be longer - Hong Kong-Beijing or Hong Kong-Shanghai? And which will be busier?


----------



## Sunfuns

Silly_Walks said:


> Hong Kong might be rich, but that doesn't mean a train from Hong Kong-Beijing will be busier than Shanghai-Beijing, which is basically what this discussion was about: which will be the busiest HSR corridor in China?


That's true. My bet would be on Beijing-Shanghai.


----------



## Silly_Walks

chornedsnorkack said:


> Which will be longer - Hong Kong-Beijing or Hong Kong-Shanghai? And which will be busier?


I think both those routes aren't very good territory for HSR. Someone wanting to go from Hong Kong to Beijing or Shanghai will take the airplane.


----------



## Bannor

Yes, Beijing - Shanghai is just inside the limit for when you normally would pick train over flight travel. Just considering how long it takes getting to the airport and stand in line there as opposed to jumping on a train. However, as it is right now the price on the tickets will be a key indicator too, as the train ride still takes up to an hour more for the average traveller. However, once they bump up the train speed a bit more, I have no doubt that this line will get smack full to the brink of the when the government is considering a second line. Just like how Japan is making a new line between Tokyo and Osaka. Perhaps China will start on a maglev line, or something even more futuristic, like an evacuated tube? That would blow my mind away!

In fact, these evacuated tubes needs to see the light of day soon! They will make PDL trainlines obsolete, but who cares?

Evacuated tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92dK_yxaKvk

Or a Gravity train:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EapvQ3ALYJY


----------



## dodge321

I was in Xi'an/Baoji for Chinese New Year. Travelling from Xi'an to Baoji by road I saw that the viaducts for the Xi'an-Baoji HSR line was finished, but electrification installations remain incomplete. Hopefully they can have the line up and running in the middle of the year.


----------



## hkskyline

Sunfuns said:


> Right, but how about average incomes in Hong Kong versus Shanghai or Beijing (including migrant workers)? Never been to Hong Kong, but my understanding was that the percentage of middle class is significantly higher there.


Hong Kong's average income is at First World levels and is still significantly higher than even the richest Chinese cities. GDP per capita, per World Bank, was USD 35,156. (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD)

The key question is whether it makes sense to switch to HSR than to continue flying. At 2000 km, I think flying to Beijing still has a significant advantage, and is very affordable given the high incomes.

What I think will change is how people reach the rest of Guangdong. It will no longer make sense to take a bus to, say, Guangzhou, so train use between Guangzhou - Hong Kong will likely increase dramatically.


----------



## FM 2258

Bannor said:


> Yes, Beijing - Shanghai is just inside the limit for when you normally would pick train over flight travel. Just considering how long it takes getting to the airport and stand in line there as opposed to jumping on a train. However, as it is right now the price on the tickets will be a key indicator too, as the train ride still takes up to an hour more for the average traveller. However, once they bump up the train speed a bit more, I have no doubt that this line will get smack full to the brink of the when the government is considering a second line. Just like how Japan is making a new line between Tokyo and Osaka. Perhaps China will start on a maglev line, or something even more futuristic, like an evacuated tube? That would blow my mind away!
> 
> In fact, these evacuated tubes needs to see the light of day soon! They will make PDL trainlines obsolete, but who cares?
> 
> Evacuated tube:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92dK_yxaKvk
> 
> Or a Gravity train:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EapvQ3ALYJY


Back in 2010 I flew from Shanghai(Hongqiao) to Beijing and from hotel to hotel with 1 hr flight delay I would say the whole trip was 6 hrs at least.


----------



## big-dog

D644 near Changsha Station










by 紫金岁月


----------



## foxmulder

Now, that's a nice picture. Zigzag train


----------



## big-dog

*Nanchang-Ganzhou HSR to start construction at the end of 2013*

Location: Jiangxi Province
Length: 421km
Design speed: 350km/h
Cost: 44 bln yuan
It's on early stage survey now.

link


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> *Nanchang-Ganzhou HSR to start construction at the end of 2013*
> 
> Location: Jiangxi Province
> Length: 421km
> Design speed: 350km/h
> Cost: 44 bln yuan
> It's on early stage survey now.


This is, unusually, longer than the parallel low speed railway, which is 412 km.

Also, on a low speed railway, Ganzhou is just 396 km from Huizhou.

Would it make sense to also build a 350 km/h high speed railway Huizhou-Ganzhou?


----------



## hmmwv

dodge321 said:


> I was in Xi'an/Baoji for Chinese New Year. Travelling from Xi'an to Baoji by road I saw that the viaducts for the Xi'an-Baoji HSR line was finished, but electrification installations remain incomplete. Hopefully they can have the line up and running in the middle of the year.


It won't happen in the middle of the year, in fact they haven't even started track laying, which is scheduled for April, so my guess is that infrastructure construction will be done by late summer like August-Sept, testing will take a few months and opening in late Dec.


----------



## FM 2258

big-dog said:


> *Nanchang-Ganzhou HSR to start construction at the end of 2013*
> 
> Location: Jiangxi Province
> Length: 421km
> Design speed: 350km/h
> Cost: 44 bln yuan
> It's on early stage survey now.
> 
> link


Is this line part of a longer Guangzhou or Shenzhen to Shanghai(via Hangzhou) high speed railway? 




chornedsnorkack said:


> This is, unusually, longer than the parallel low speed railway, which is 412 km.
> 
> Also, on a low speed railway, Ganzhou is just 396 km from Huizhou.
> 
> Would it make sense to also build a 350 km/h high speed railway Huizhou-Ganzhou?


That would make sense and have the line extend down to Shenzhen.


----------



## dodge321

hmmwv said:


> It won't happen in the middle of the year, in fact they haven't even started track laying, which is scheduled for April, so my guess is that infrastructure construction will be done by late summer like August-Sept, testing will take a few months and opening in late Dec.


Ah I see, thanks. That's quite a bit behind earlier schedules as the line was said to begin trial runs by the end of 2012. 

Btw, it seems from this article that the design speed of the Baoji-Lanzhou section of the Xuzhou-Lanzhou HSR line will be 250kph (instead of 350kph). What's the latest plan for the Baoji-Lanzhou section? Any idea?

http://www.ha.xinhuanet.com/hnxw/2012-10/24/c_113471102.htm


----------



## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> This is, unusually, longer than the parallel low speed railway, which is 412 km.
> 
> Also, on a low speed railway, Ganzhou is just 396 km from Huizhou.
> 
> Would it make sense to also build a 350 km/h high speed railway Huizhou-Ganzhou?


This is part of the Nanchang-Ji'an-Ganzhou-Shenzhen HSR line. Per initial plan Nanchang-Ganzhou HSR is 398km, the first survey adjusted it to 421km, it doesn't follow the existing rail and passes Wan'an on its route. However this is only the first survey so the route/length is subject to change.



FM 2258 said:


> Is this line part of a longer Guangzhou or Shenzhen to Shanghai(via Hangzhou) high speed railway?


This line is designed to ease the traffic of Beijing-Kowloon(Hong Kong) railway so it should be part of Beijing-Kowloon rail.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> The 150-kilometer Hangzhou-Ningbo high-speed railway linking Hangzhou and Ningbo, two hub cities in Zhejiang, commenced its integration test here on Friday. Once put into operation on July 2013 as expected, the high-speed railway that designed at a top speed of 350km/h, would reduce the travel time to 36 minitues, a quarter time of the current two-hour journey. (Xinhua/Tan Jin)


As of March, the fastest train Hangzhou-Ningbo actually takes 1:55 for 176 km. This is D377.

The other existing fastest times:
Hangzhou-Wenzhou - 3:47 for 446 km (D5587)
Hangzhou-Fuzhou - 5:58 for 740 km (D3231)
Hangzhou-Xiamen - 7:28 for 966 km (D3231)
Hangzhou South-Longyan - 8:34 for 1095 km (D3135)

Shanghai-Ningbo - 2:52 for 333 km (2 trains)
Shanghai-Wenzhou - 4:30 for 603 km (D5455)
Shanghai-Fuzhou - 6:59 for 897 km (D3205)
Shanghai-Xiamen - 8:44 for 1154 km (D3201)
Shanghai-Longyan - 10:17 for 1279 km (D3135)

Nanjing-Ningbo - 4:35 for 628 km (D365)
Nanjing-Wenzhou - 6:19 for 898 km (D365)
Nanjing-Fuzhou - 8:32 for 1200 km (D365)
Nanjing-Xiamen - 11:39 for 1424 km (D3135)
Nanjing-Longyan - 12:49 for 1580 km (D3135)

Beijing-Ningbo - 11:13 for 1651 km (D365)
Beijing-Wenzhou - 12:57 for 1921 km (D365)
Beijing-Fuzhou - 15:10 for 2223 km (D365)
Beijing-Xiamen - no D trains
Beijing-Longyan - no D trains

What shall these trip times be in July, when Hangzhou-Ningbo high speed railway shall have opened?
Is Nanjing-Hangzhou high speed railway on schedule to open before Hangzhou-Ningbo high speed railway?


----------



## China Hand

Sunfuns said:


> Right, but how about average incomes in Hong Kong versus Shanghai or Beijing (including migrant workers)? Never been to Hong Kong, but my understanding was that the percentage of middle class is significantly higher there.


PPP GDP Per Capita Per Year
HK 50 to 55k USD
Shanghai ~30k USD
Beijing ~20k USD

Shanghai is trying to be HK v2.0, Shenzhen-Guangzhou and most of Guangdong are close behind, and various other large cities and provincial capitals are ~10 to ~15k USD.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> PPP GDP Per Capita Per Year
> HK 50 to 55k USD
> Shanghai ~30k USD
> Beijing ~20k USD
> 
> Shanghai is trying to be HK v2.0, Shenzhen-Guangzhou and most of Guangdong are close behind, and various other large cities and provincial capitals are ~10 to ~15k USD.


Nominal data have a bit different values, and a bit different order:

Hong Kong - 37 352 in 2011

Shenzhen - 19 806
Guangzhou - 16 840
Foshan - 14 773
but
Dongguan - 9655
Guangdong average - 8580

Wuxi - 18 814
Suzhou - 18 181
Hangzhou - 14 209
Nanjing - 14 074
Ningbo - 13 590
and only then
Shanghai - 13 306

Tianjin - 14 445
Beijing - 13 628 
Tangshan - 12 021

Other large cities and provincial capitals:
Dalian - 15 863
Changsha - 14 393
Qingdao - 13 273
Shenyang - 13 094
Wuhan - 12 957
Jinan - 11 189
Zhengzhou - 10 186


----------



## FM 2258

big-dog said:


> This is part of the Nanchang-Ji'an-Ganzhou-Shenzhen HSR line. Per initial plan Nanchang-Ganzhou HSR is 398km, the first survey adjusted it to 421km, it doesn't follow the existing rail and passes Wan'an on its route. However this is only the first survey so the route/length is subject to change.
> 
> 
> 
> This line is designed to ease the traffic of Beijing-Kowloon(Hong Kong) railway so it should be part of Beijing-Kowloon rail.


Interesting...looking at a map do we expect this line to go north to Hefei-Xuzhou-Jinan to Beijing? It's interesting to see 350km/h lines that aren't part of the High Speed 4+4 plan.


----------



## Sunfuns

China Hand said:


> PPP GDP Per Capita Per Year
> HK 50 to 55k USD
> Shanghai ~30k USD
> Beijing ~20k USD


Does that include migrant workers or only those with an official residence permit in Beijing/Shanghai? I suspect there would be a big difference between both modes of accounting. 

But of course this is a bit off-topic...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Some distances to get the reference framework

Changsha-Guangzhou, on old railway - 707 km
Changsha-Shenzhen, on old railway - 854 km
Wuchang-Guangzhou, on old railway - 1069 km
Wuchang-Shenzhen, on old railway - 1216 km

Nanchang-Changsha, on old railway - 419 km
Nanchang-Hangzhou, on old railway - 629 km
Nanchang-Shanghai, on old railway - 813 km
Changsha-Hangzhou, on old railway - 989 km (passing Nanchang)
Changsha-Shanghai, on old railway - 1173 km

Ningbo East-Xiamen, on new railway - 821 km

Nanchang-Shenzhen, on old railway - 923 km
Nanchang-Guangzhou, on old railway - 956 km


----------



## China Hand

Sunfuns said:


> Does that include migrant workers or only those with an official residence permit in Beijing/Shanghai? I suspect there would be a big difference between both modes of accounting.
> 
> But of course this is a bit off-topic...


Various anecdotal observations strongly support that China is moving into the lower developed area of 10k to 13k PPP GDP USD at this moment, this year. Kids buying lots of sodas, more trash, more trash workers picking it up, buying clothes based upon style preferences, the enormous increase in autos on the roads, smartphones, laptops; hi-rise, skyscraper and Super/Mega-tall buildings everywhere, the increasing height of young boys and young men, and most importantly the nonplussed nature of the response when I mention this.

Apathetic Teens? You are developed!


----------



## hmmwv

dodge321 said:


> Ah I see, thanks. That's quite a bit behind earlier schedules as the line was said to begin trial runs by the end of 2012.
> 
> Btw, it seems from this article that the design speed of the Baoji-Lanzhou section of the Xuzhou-Lanzhou HSR line will be 250kph (instead of 350kph). What's the latest plan for the Baoji-Lanzhou section? Any idea?
> 
> http://www.ha.xinhuanet.com/hnxw/2012-10/24/c_113471102.htm


Correct, the Baoji-Lanzhou PDL has been adjusted to 250km/h with a minimum curve radius of 4500m. The interesting bit is that this line is 68% tunnel and 25% bridge/viaduct, so it's essentially a huge subway. This is necessary to negotiate the complicated terrain of the Loess Plateau. The line is fair straight except a turn near Tianshui, so if they want I don't see why can't they increase the operating speed to 300km/h, which will match nicely with Lanzhou-Urumqi's 300km/h design speed.


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

China Hand said:


> PPP GDP Per Capita Per Year
> HK 50 to 55k USD
> Shanghai ~30k USD
> Beijing ~20k USD
> 
> Shanghai is trying to be HK v2.0, Shenzhen-Guangzhou and most of Guangdong are close behind, and various other large cities and provincial capitals are ~10 to ~15k USD.


Those numbers are not correct. Shanghai and Beijing are on about the same level of GDP per capita. Almost all the big cities on the east coast are on a similar level of GDP per capita. Even some inland cities are on a similar level.

PPP GDP per capita for Shanghai and Beijing are about 21K and 20 USD respectively and for Guangzhou and Shenzhen about 23K and 25K USD respectively.

Here is a GDP per capita list for 2012.


----------



## phoenixboi08

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> PPP GDP per capita for Shanghai and Beijing are about 21K and 20 USD respectively and for Guangzhou and Shenzhen about 23K and 25K USD respectively.
> 
> Here is a GDP per capita list for 2012.


I think you were looking at the wrong column...or I'm mis-reading it?

From what I see, per capita gdp is 16,000 for Guangzhou, almost 20,000 for Shenzhen, and 13,000 for Shanghai and Beijing.


----------



## Scion

^^ The numbers listed in the table are nominal values. The numbers written out in his post are in Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) terms.


----------



## phoenixboi08

Scion said:


> ^^ The numbers listed in the table are nominal values. The numbers written out in his post are in Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) terms.


Well then, that would make sense. Thanks.


----------



## hkskyline

Guangzhou South


Guangzhou South Station (236B/365) by nicoyangjie, on Flickr


Guangzhou South Station (236A/365) by nicoyangjie, on Flickr


Guangzhou South Station (240B/365) by nicoyangjie, on Flickr


----------



## China Hand

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> Those numbers are not correct. Shanghai and Beijing are on about the same level of GDP per capita. Almost all the big cities on the east coast are on a similar level of GDP per capita. Even some inland cities are on a similar level.
> 
> PPP GDP per capita for Shanghai and Beijing are about 21K and 20 USD respectively and for Guangzhou and Shenzhen about 23K and 25K USD respectively.
> 
> Here is a GDP per capita list for 2012.


These figures appear to be pulled from an analyst's spreadsheet, so I will demur to vectro's info above.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

In Japan it is reported that there is a bill that will be voted during this years national assembly that the Ministry of Railroad will be dismantled and operation will be turned into a private company and planning and future construction will be absorbed into the Ministry of transportation.


----------



## foxmulder

Guangzhou South is my very favorite, thanks for the pictures hkskyline.


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

China Hand said:


> These figures appear to be pulled from an analyst's spreadsheet, so I will demur to vectro's info above.


No I don't think they are made up since the numbers are in line with 2011's and 2010's figures.

Look here for 2011's and 2010's GDP per capita numbers.

*2011*

*2010*


----------



## dao123

SamuraiBlue said:


> In Japan it is reported that there is a bill that will be voted during this years national assembly that the Ministry of Railroad will be dismantled and operation will be turned into a private company and planning and future construction will be absorbed into the Ministry of transportation.


It is already a done deal. Google "china ministry of railways", and you will find many reports.

BTW, Guangzhou South is fantastic with a broad open view and much of daylighting.


----------



## Geography

It's official: the Ministry of Railways will be broken up and merged with the Ministry of Transport.

Reuters



> The Railways Ministry and Family Planning Commission have been particularly unpopular, and their restructuring was widely expected.
> 
> The Railways Ministry has faced numerous problems over the past few years, including heavy debts from funding new high-speed lines, waste and fraud.
> 
> Railways planning will be coordinated under the broader transport ministry. The government has pledged to open the rail industry to private investment on an unprecedented scale.


----------



## China Hand

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> No I don't think they are made up since the numbers are in line with 2011's and 2010's figures.
> 
> Look here for 2011's and 2010's GDP per capita numbers.


I think you misunderstand. An analyst's figures would not be made up, they would be more accurate and up to date based upon collecting the data in house for whatever investment house the analyst works for. Since they are close, but not identical, and have a column for Share.

Unless these are just yours and you did the spreadsheet yourself...:lol:


----------



## Norge78

@Hmmwv

Is there any information about the current status and opening date 
of these 3 HSR lines?


- Lanxin HSR

- Beijing - Shenyang HSR

- Shanghai - Kunming HSR

Thx


----------



## China Hand

Norge78 said:


> @Hmmwv
> 
> Is there any information about the current status and opening date
> of these 3 HSR lines?
> 
> 
> - Lanxin HSR
> 
> - Beijing - Shenyang HSR
> 
> - Shanghai - Kunming HSR
> 
> Thx


With the MOR moved, I think all completion dates may change...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Harbin-Shenyang-Dalian schedule*

There are 20 days left on March 2013.

What shall the schedule of Harbin-Shenyang-Dalian high speed rail be like in this spring?

Are there any plans to change its top speed from the current 200 km/h?


----------



## hmmwv

Norge78 said:


> @Hmmwv
> 
> Is there any information about the current status and opening date
> of these 3 HSR lines?
> 
> 
> - Lanxin HSR
> 
> - Beijing - Shenyang HSR
> 
> - Shanghai - Kunming HSR
> 
> Thx


Lanxin is well on its way to open in 2014, which is a fairly rigid target. Basic infrastructure construction should be concluded at the end of this year, which is good because there will be less chance for its speed to be downgraded now.

Beijing-Shengyang is rumored to have started construction a few months ago, public opposition by several apartment complexes in Beijing has yet to be resolved, opening is set in 2017-18.

Shanghai-Kunming's Hangzhou-Changsha section should start track laying at the end of this year and opening in 2014. Changsha-Kunming section will open sometime in 2015.


----------



## big-dog

*3.11 13:54 Nanjing-Hangzhou-Ningbo HSR started trial run*



















Video

by 高铁见闻


----------



## hkskyline

^ hmm .. so the entire Nanjing - Hangzhou - Ningbo section is under testing at the same time? Someone asked about my earlier post on Huzhou test photos, which the article referred to as testing for Hangzhou - Ningbo only.


----------



## big-dog

^^ yesterday two CRH trains were testing on Nanjing-Hangzhou and Hangzhou-Ningbo respectively.


----------



## hmmwv

hkskyline said:


> ^ hmm .. so the entire Nanjing - Hangzhou - Ningbo section is under testing at the same time? Someone asked about my earlier post on Huzhou test photos, which the article referred to as testing for Hangzhou - Ningbo only.


Huzhou got to be a typo or misuse of photo, it's not on the Hangzhou-Ningbo line.


----------



## FM 2258

hkskyline said:


> ^ hmm .. so the entire Nanjing - Hangzhou - Ningbo section is under testing at the same time? Someone asked about my earlier post on Huzhou test photos, which the article referred to as testing for Hangzhou - Ningbo only.


I asked about it. Pictures showed the line between Hangzhou and Ningbo but said picture was taking in Huzhou which is not between Hangzhou and Ningbo but between Nanjing-Hangzhou.


----------



## FM 2258

big-dog said:


> *3.11 13:54 Nanjing-Hangzhou-Ningbo HSR started trial run*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video
> 
> by 高铁见闻


I didn't know there was an existing rail line between Hangzhou and Ningbo. It surprised me that there wasn't a direct Nanjing-Hangzhou railway before this brand new line was built. 

Did CRH trains run on this parallel line before the 350km/h line was opened? I ask because before the 350km/h Nanjing-Shanghai railway was opened CRH trains ran on the old line...not sure if they do anymore.

Edit: 

It looks like Wikipedia answered my question. Will CRH services stop when the new line is open? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiaoshan–Ningbo_Railway


----------



## Xtartrex

It looks like trains are the future in China, in the long run it does make perfect sense, one day fuel price will skyrocket, we have to look for alternatives now, before we come close to that day.


----------



## big-dog

*Longyan-Xiamen railway* (in Fujian Province)

140km, opened July 1st 2012










by Luo chunxiao


----------



## luhai

Can anyone find English language version of this documentary? This is probably the most comprehensive documentary on Chinese HSR I have seen so far, and completely politics free! It covers development of CHR380 and construction of the Beijing-Shanghai HSR line.

It supposed to be from the Man Made Marvel series from Discovery channel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qv1KgaBsRY


----------



## Obuyama

Who knows, is there direct train Tsingtao-Shahnghai? Start' terminal in Shanghai?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Obuyama said:


> Who knows, is there direct train Tsingtao-Shahnghai?


Yes, there are 4 such trains daily. They are all G trains, travelling at 200 km/h on the 250 km/h railway Qingdao-Jinan, then at 300 km/h on the 380 km/h railway Jinan-Shanghai. Trip time is between 6:32 (G228) and 6:46 (G232).


Obuyama said:


> Start' terminal in Shanghai?


The 4 daily trains Shanghai-Qingdao all start at Shanghai Hongqiao, where also all 4 daily trains Qingdao-Shanghai end. While slow speed railways exist all the way between Shanghai and Qingdao, no direct trains run there.


----------



## Obuyama

chornedsnorkack said:


> Yes, there are 4 such trains daily. They are all G trains, travelling at 200 km/h on the 250 km/h railway Qingdao-Jinan, then at 300 km/h on the 380 km/h railway Jinan-Shanghai. Trip time is between 6:32 (G228) and 6:46 (G232).
> 
> The 4 daily trains Shanghai-Qingdao all start at Shanghai Hongqiao, where also all 4 daily trains Qingdao-Shanghai end. While slow speed railways exist all the way between Shanghai and Qingdao, *no direct trains run there*.


No direct high-speed or low speed? So, plain is better, if 6 & a half hours on route by train?
Is there Web Site of high speed train timetable official (even in Mandarin)?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Obuyama said:


> No direct high-speed or low speed?


No direct low speed trains. All 4 direct trains are high speed.


Obuyama said:


> So, plain is better, if 6 & a half hours on route by train?


Faster, yes. Better, depends on what the actual schedules and prices of planes are.
G train tickets are 518 yuan in second class, 818 in first.


Obuyama said:


> Is there Web Site of high speed train timetable official (even in Mandarin)?


There certainly is an official website in Mandarin. 

There are also unofficial English websites. A fairly good one is this:
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/china-trains/display.aspx?tp=1&to1=Shanghai&from1=Qingdao (this link is an example search result)


----------



## Obuyama

ye, the same - http://www.tielu.org/


----------



## China Hand

Is not a coastal line from Qingdao to Shanghai in the long term MOR plan?


----------



## hkskyline

Xian North


Platform cleaner by Ciaobrian, on Flickr


Inspector by Ciaobrian, on Flickr


Boarding the bullet train by Ciaobrian, on Flickr


----------



## big-dog

March 2013










by 铁路小亨


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> Is not a coastal line from Qingdao to Shanghai in the long term MOR plan?


Qingdao-Rizhao-Lianyungang and Shanghai-Nantong are under construction, but they are both 200 km/h.


----------



## Sunfuns

Found this article about Harbin-Dalian high speed line: http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1198216/speed-increase-harbin-dalian-rail-line-delayed

Looks like weather is not the only factor to be blamed for suboptimal performance of this route compared to other lines.


----------



## :jax:

> But Wang Mengshu, deputy chief engineer at the China Railway Tunnel Group who was familiar with the railway's construction, said yesterday that the line had suffered from poor management that led to some serious quality concerns.
> 
> The line was not suitable to run at its designed speed until those problems were resolved, he said.
> 
> "The construction management was desperate to cut costs," Wang said. "They cancelled the construction of many bridges and tunnels, laying the rails directly on ground that was vulnerable to ice."
> 
> The expansion of ice in soil can stretch and twist rail lines beyond their safety limit, he said. About a fourth of the line was laid on such soils.


Ouch. Frost heaving is serious business, though if they have done it with a proper foundation it should be safe. Low speed trains can manage.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

And pinning it on Liu Zhijun would solve everything, wouldn't it? 

:\ 

This is sad. When I read about the Dalian-Harbin HSR opening, I thought they would have taken such measures. Guess I was wrong.


----------



## Sunfuns

Part of the reason why Chinese could build their HS lines cheaper than elsewhere is an inexpensive workforce and economies of scale, but sadly the other part is lax attitude to safety and building standards. That will need to be tackled otherwise another accident is just waiting to happen...


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## Silly_Walks

Silver Swordsman said:


> This is sad. When I read about the Dalian-Harbin HSR opening, I thought they would have taken such measures. Guess I was wrong.


It's not strange that you were thinking that, since they SAID at the opening, with great fanfare, that this was the first high speed rail line for 'arctic temperatures' and such claims.

Seems it was just empty boasting, once more. hno:


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## foxmulder

""They cancelled the construction of many bridges and tunnels, laying the rails directly on ground that was vulnerable to ice.""

Above line simply not believable and sounds like only bashing. Most of the line (~70%) is already on bridges or consists of tunnels.


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## Silly_Walks

foxmulder said:


> ""They cancelled the construction of many bridges and tunnels, laying the rails directly on ground that was vulnerable to ice.""
> 
> Above line simply not believable and sounds like only bashing. Most of the line (~70%) is already on bridges or consists of tunnels.


"About a fourth of the line was laid on such soils."


So 25%, and you say about 70% is on bridges or tunnels... those numbers seem to match up.


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## Sopomon

foxmulder said:


> ""They cancelled the construction of many bridges and tunnels, laying the rails directly on ground that was vulnerable to ice.""
> 
> Above line simply not believable and sounds like only bashing. Most of the line (~70%) is already on bridges or consists of tunnels.


Is any critical opinion on China 'bashing' now?


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## Sunfuns

The source cited is Chinese as well, so...


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## foxmulder

Sopomon said:


> Is any critical opinion on China 'bashing' now?



I gave the reasoning why I found the "report" as bashing. Its main reasoning is hilarious. Almost the whole route is elevated anyway... If it was about materials used, I might have believed it.


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## foxmulder

Silly_Walks said:


> "About a fourth of the line was laid on such soils."
> 
> 
> So 25%, and you say about 70% is on bridges or tunnels... those numbers seem to match up.


Well, they don't. Permafrost is not a feature of 100% of that route.


----------



## foxmulder

Sunfuns said:


> The source cited is Chinese as well, so...


yeah, so.. ? 

Do you believe everything in Chinese about China, now?


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## Silly_Walks

foxmulder said:


> Well, they don't. Permafrost is not a feature of 100% of that route.


Permafrost is not a problem. Water freezing is a problem. That can happen along the entire route.


----------



## hkskyline

*Vice premier stresses safe operation of railways*

ZHENGZHOU, March 25 (Xinhua) -- China's railway sector that is experiencing a massive reshuffle should always prioritize safe operation, Vice Premier Ma Kai said Monday.

Ma made the remarks during an inspection in Zhengzhou, capital of central China's Henan Province. He said safety is an important measurement of railway reform.

The government earlier this month announced to divided the Ministry of Railways into two parts to carry out administrative and commercial functions, respectively.

The former ministry was both a policymaker and service provider and has long been criticized for ticketing problems, bureaucracy and deadly rail accidents.

Ma said the reforms are conducive to resolving the structural problems that have hampered the development of railways, as well as improving their efficiency and service quality.

Ma toured the Beijing-Zhengzhou section of the Beijing-Guangzhou high-speed railway and inspected railway construction sites in the province.

He urged railway departments at all levels to eliminate major traffic accidents and ensure the safety of the country's high-speed railways.


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## FM 2258

^^

Moving forward I hope the Chinese can have a safety record as good as the Japanese.


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## feisibuke

*Daily ridership of Beijing–Shanghai HSR at Beijing South Station*

Beijing–Shanghai HSR Line Beijing South Station Departures

Monthly average:
• June 2012: ~ 40,000 (data missing on 2 of 30 days)
• July 2012: 50,658
• August 2012: 50,286
• September 2012: 43,672
• October 2012: 44,240
• November 2012: 37,915
• December 2012: 37,317
• January 2013: 37,634
• February 2013: 39,636
• March 2013: 41,627 (as of March 26)

June 2012:









July 2012:









August 2012:









September 2012:









October 2012:









November 2012:









December 2012:









January 2013:









February 2013:









March 2013:


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## skyridgeline

Sunfuns said:


> Found this article about Harbin-Dalian high speed line: http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1198216/speed-increase-harbin-dalian-rail-line-delayed
> 
> Looks like weather is not the only factor to be blamed for suboptimal performance of this route compared to other lines.


A tunnel builder complaining about the lack of tunnels - that's creative. 



Silly_Walks said:


> Permafrost is not a problem. *Water freezing is a problem*. That can happen along the entire route.


Actually, _thawing _is the problem.


----------



## dao123

Sunfuns said:


> Found this article about Harbin-Dalian high speed line: http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1198216/speed-increase-harbin-dalian-rail-line-delayed
> 
> Looks like weather is not the only factor to be blamed for suboptimal performance of this route compared to other lines.


-------------------------
2 days later, this piece of news was released: http://www.ln.xinhuanet.com/newscenter/2013-03/26/c_115155097.htm

speed increase schedule is:
1. beginning of April: test train running at 300 km/h;
2. mid April: empty trains running at 300 km/h;
3. 21st April:all trains in service run at 300 km/h.


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## foxmulder

dao123 said:


> -------------------------
> 2 days later, this piece of news was released: http://www.ln.xinhuanet.com/newscenter/2013-03/26/c_115155097.htm
> 
> speed increase schedule is:
> 1. beginning of April: test train running at 300 km/h;
> 2. mid April: empty trains running at 300 km/h;
> 3. 21st April:all trains in service run at 300 km/h.


Thanks for the link.


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## chornedsnorkack

China is building high speed railways many years after others. There are many things to bring as examples.

For example, the first. Tokaido Shinkansen.

Tokaido Shinkansen has 17 stations between Tokyo and Osaka.

13 of the 17 are existing low speed railway stations.

Only 4 Tokaido Shinkansen stations were new. Of them, the terminus, Shin-Osaka was built on the existing Tokaido main line where the 13 existing stations already were, on an empty stretch of the line 3 km from old Osaka station. Shin-Yokohama was built 8 km away from old Yokohama station - but it was built at an empty stretch of an existing suburban railway, so high speed station was built with a low speed station included. Gifu-Hashima and Shin-Fuji were the only stations that were not interchanges from the beginning, and later a branch line was built specifically to connect Gifu-Hashima station.

How many stations of Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway are served by low speed rail?


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## foxmulder

chornedsnorkack said:


> How many stations of Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway are served by low speed rail?


I believe it will be quite easy to add additional tracks to these new stations if needed. They are very spacious. If I remember correctly Hongqiao rail station had 9 "slots" for future maglev lines, already.


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## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> How many stations of Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway are served by low speed rail?


I don't think any of them does
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing–Shanghai_High-Speed_Railway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinghu_Railway

Edit: However, the old Jinghu Railway does run 200km/h (250km/h before slowdown) D trains. Actually the overnight (10 hr) D trains is the preferred run for people traveling direct from Beijing to Shanghai and vice versa, since you don't really loose travel time and save a night at the hotel.


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## saiho

chornedsnorkack said:


> China is building high speed railways many years after others. There are many things to bring as examples.
> 
> For example, the first. Tokaido Shinkansen.
> 
> Tokaido Shinkansen has 17 stations between Tokyo and Osaka.
> 
> 13 of the 17 are existing low speed railway stations.
> 
> Only 4 Tokaido Shinkansen stations were new. Of them, the terminus, Shin-Osaka was built on the existing Tokaido main line where the 13 existing stations already were, on an empty stretch of the line 3 km from old Osaka station. Shin-Yokohama was built 8 km away from old Yokohama station - but it was built at an empty stretch of an existing suburban railway, so high speed station was built with a low speed station included. Gifu-Hashima and Shin-Fuji were the only stations that were not interchanges from the beginning, and later a branch line was built specifically to connect Gifu-Hashima station.
> 
> How many stations of Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway are served by low speed rail?


ATM China's low speed rail your referring to takes or plans to take the form of subways.


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## 1772

CNN's Business Traveller makes a short piece on China HSR 

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/11/travel/china-high-speed-rail/index.html?sr=sharebar_twitter


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## Sopomon

^^
Richard Quest: Utterly Insufferable

Interesting comparison otherwise


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## 1772

Sopomon said:


> ^^
> Richard Quest: Utterly Insufferable
> 
> Interesting comparison otherwise


Right on. Could someone please get him to an asylum? The man obviously has some sort of mental issue...


----------



## :jax:

While not in China, the Europe entry is useful as well. A major issue in Europe, fragmentation, is not one that is likely to concern China rail any time soon (though it does for airline and integrated travel).

It all comes down to time, price, and aggravation. As far as aggravation goes nothing compares with Chunyun travel. Leaving that aside, the part of travelling that consists of actually sitting in a long-distance bus, train, boat or plane is usually quite fine these days. It is everything around it that can be stressful, getting tickets, getting to the station/airport, transferring, getting from the station/airport, delayed or missed vehicles. Here Europe can do better, as can China.


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## hkskyline

1772 said:


> CNN's Business Traveller makes a short piece on China HSR
> 
> http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/11/travel/china-high-speed-rail/index.html?sr=sharebar_twitter


I would not dare to arrive with only 30 minutes to spare and hope to make it through the long lines to pick up my train ticket!

Can locals use the automated machines to pick up pre-booked tickets? I was a bit surprised I couldn't do that with my Hong Kong return home permit.

But I do agree the train experience would still be far better than the delay-prone flights.

But then, USD 85 is quite a hefty sum considering Wuhan's lower working classes won't likely make more than USD 300 a month.


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## Bannor

You should have been able to order it online, and just needing to bring your credit card to the trainstation where they should have automated kiosks ready for you to print out your ticket!

I see China is much at the forefront of high speed rail, but when it comes to this, they are several years behind the western world in ticketing systems. Such a shame though! That is alot of time wasted right there when they spend billions on fast trains in order to save some time!

Those kiosks are a very small investment, so it is very depressing to know that its still not there yet...

by the way, I find Richard Quest funny sometimes, and he is refreshingly open with his questions. But he can also be annoying and narcissistic.


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## Sunfuns

Why even bother with kiosks? Should be possible to just print a ticket at home or even simply store in a smartphone. 

Of course that can't be the only option for obvious reasons, but I fail to see why that can't be one of the options...


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## chornedsnorkack

saiho said:


> ATM China's low speed rail your referring to takes or plans to take the form of subways.


6 of the 17 Tokaido Shinkansen stations are served by subways. But all these 6 are served by zairaisen as well.


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## Bannor

Sunfuns: Smartphones or tablets is another great idea. But printing tickets at home doesn't really work. You normally have to change it into a ticket at the station anyway. For the magnetic strip etc. So it would still require a kiosk.


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## Sunfuns

Bannor said:


> Sunfuns: Smartphones or tablets is another great idea. *But printing tickets at home doesn't really work. You normally have to change it into a ticket at the station anyway. For the magnetic strip etc. So it would still require a kiosk.*


That is not true. I'm traveling with German ICE from time to time and usually print the ticket at home (or at work). The ticket includes a bar code which could be scanned with a laser just like an airplane boarding card plus you also have to show your ID on the train since tickets are not anonymous.


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## Bannor

^^ Thats exactly what I mean, but have to scan it to get the boarding card... And for that you need a kiosk!

Otherwise you need conductors running round on the train all the time. And that seems like useless mumbo jumbo to me. Might just as well save the job and invest in kiosks instead!


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## Sunfuns

Bannor said:


> ^^ Thats exactly what I mean, but have to scan it to get the boarding card... And for that you need a kiosk!
> 
> Otherwise you need conductors running round on the train all the time. And that seems like useless mumbo jumbo to me. Might just as well save the job and invest in kiosks instead!


Conductors are going through the train checking everyone's tickets anyway! The other option is to check/scan tickets at the station. 

And by the way the paper you print at home is your boarding card for the flight, no need to get another one. You must not have flown anywhere recently or at least not in Europe/US...


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## Silly_Walks

Bannor said:


> ^^ Thats exactly what I mean, but have to scan it to get the boarding card... And for that you need a kiosk!
> 
> Otherwise you need conductors running round on the train all the time. And that seems like useless mumbo jumbo to me. Might just as well save the job and invest in kiosks instead!



When I travelled on the Thalys to Paris, I had my A4 print-out that I printed myself at home, and it had a big, complicated QR code which the conductors could scan with their little scanning device. 
Very easy and convenient. Sure beat my Chinese ticket-buying experience where I had to wait in line for an hour for a ticket from A to B, only to be told that I would have to wait in line another hour at my transfer stop at B , because I couldn't buy the ticket for my next destination from B to C at station A hno:

But the ride was a lot smoother once I was actually on the train :lol:


----------



## Pansori

Silly_Walks said:


> When I travelled on the Thalys to Paris, I had my A4 print-out that I printed myself at home, and it had a big, complicated QR code which the conductors could scan with their little scanning device.
> Very easy and convenient. Sure beat my Chinese ticket-buying experience where I had to wait in line for an hour for a ticket from A to B, only to be told that I would have to wait in line another hour at my transfer stop at B , because I couldn't buy the ticket for my next destination from B to C at station A hno:
> 
> But the ride was a lot smoother once I was actually on the train :lol:


Software issues.


----------



## stoneybee

Silly_Walks said:


> When I travelled on the Thalys to Paris, I had my A4 print-out that I printed myself at home, and it had a big, complicated QR code which the conductors could scan with their little scanning device.
> Very easy and convenient. Sure beat my Chinese ticket-buying experience where I had to wait in line for an hour for a ticket from A to B, only to be told that I would have to wait in line another hour at my transfer stop at B , because I couldn't buy the ticket for my next destination from B to C at station A hno:
> 
> But the ride was a lot smoother once I was actually on the train :lol:


Be patient, friends. It will come. I am sure train ticketing will follow the airline industry's model of DIY ticketing in the future. China does not have the infrastructure to do this yet but I am sure it will come.


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## Sunfuns

stoneybee said:


> Be patient, friends. It will come. I am sure train ticketing will follow the airline industry's model of DIY ticketing in the future. China does not have the infrastructure to do this yet but I am sure it will come.


I'm also sure it will happen one day, but I'd also like to add that solving this issue would cost less than one of their high speed lines which seem to be growing like mushrooms after a rain :lol:

The real reason probably is that there is no serious competition, occupancy rates are high and they don't particularly care about maximising profits.


----------



## hkskyline

Bannor said:


> You should have been able to order it online, and just needing to bring your credit card to the trainstation where they should have automated kiosks ready for you to print out your ticket!
> 
> I see China is much at the forefront of high speed rail, but when it comes to this, they are several years behind the western world in ticketing systems. Such a shame though! That is alot of time wasted right there when they spend billions on fast trains in order to save some time!
> 
> Those kiosks are a very small investment, so it is very depressing to know that its still not there yet...
> 
> by the way, I find Richard Quest funny sometimes, and he is refreshingly open with his questions. But he can also be annoying and narcissistic.


There are automated machines. I believe locals with their national ID card can order online and pick up their tickets at these machines, or buy the tickets there on the spot without going through any lines.

_Guangzhou ticket machine_









Foreigners, including Hong Kong ID holders, would still need to do it the manual way.


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## k.k.jetcar

> Foreigners, including Hong Kong ID holders, would still need to do it the manual way.


What's the reasoning behind this? Shouldn't anybody be allowed to buy a ticket through a TVM?- money for fare is money, regardless of national origin of the person paying. Also, having more TVM utilization reduces labor costs, though perhaps reducing costs is not a priority in this organization.


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## SamuraiBlue

k.k.jetcar said:


> What's the reasoning behind this? Shouldn't anybody be allowed to buy a ticket through a TVM?- money for fare is money, regardless of national origin of the person paying. Also, having more TVM utilization reduces labor costs, though perhaps reducing costs is not a priority in this organization.


You're forgetting that PRC is still a communist country and would want to monitor where foreigners are going at all time.


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## hkskyline

k.k.jetcar said:


> What's the reasoning behind this? Shouldn't anybody be allowed to buy a ticket through a TVM?- money for fare is money, regardless of national origin of the person paying. Also, having more TVM utilization reduces labor costs, though perhaps reducing costs is not a priority in this organization.


All purchasers must show their ID card upon purchase. This was a new measure introduced a while back to prevent scalping. For these automated machines, passengers need to place their ID card on a scanner during purchase. I suspect the scanner cannot pick up non-Chinese ID cards.



SamuraiBlue said:


> You're forgetting that PRC is still a communist country and would want to monitor where foreigners are going at all time.


This has nothing to do with the "communist party" and the supposed "red scare". All ticket purchasers must have a valid ID card and that identification will be on the ticket itself, just as all airline passengers around the world, including those in the West, need to show proper identification prior to boarding. Any airliner flying into the US will need to submit the passenger list beforehand so the US can monitor which foreigners are coming in.


----------



## foxmulder

SamuraiBlue said:


> You're forgetting that PRC is still a communist country and would want to monitor where foreigners are going at all time.


Well, kioks machines cannot monitor people huh? Get real 

Also China is as much communist as Japan. I find some European countries more "communist" than China


----------



## :jax:

I have used most to all of these payment schemes in Europe.

While I don't mind print-your-own-ticket like Ryanair, Wizz and Deutsche Bahn do, I hate that for at least the former two it is the only option, you have to find a printer or pay a huge fine. Finding a printer is not always such an easy task, and if you are not prepared you might have to find a printer with internet access, in other words an internet cafe. In some cities there are plenty, in others there are almost none. If you are at home it is easier (I had to buy a printer just because of print-your-own, but printers are practically free), but you should remember it. 

SMS tickets are convenient, and there is nothing to remember (except checking that you got that message), but they are slow to check manually by the ticket inspector. In the vanilla version I don't think they would work in China because of the greater number of passengers. Combined with something like NFC it could work. 

Credit cards work fine, both for kiosks, and at an airport train where you swipe your credit card when entering the platform and when exiting the train/platform. In the first case the ticket is there and prepaid, you just use the credit card to identify yourself to the kiosk. The second is really quick, a couple seconds on each end, but if you forget to swipe on the way out you will pay the maximum ticket price. The Chinese equivalent would be the ID card and Yikatong (or similar) respectively. 

Some airport kiosks can handle newer passports for same use as credit card to pick up the ticket, but it is a lesser option because while credit cards are quick and almost flawless, passport recognition is slower and sometimes fail. 

Entering a ticket code (from SMS or web) is the least favourite. the number is long and slow and it is easy to make a mistake, and if you do that once or twice you can feel the queue growing behind you. 

So tickets registered to Chinese ID card numbers might be most convenient (though the ID card readers I have encountered have taken some seconds to process, they are less ideal than RFID/NFC type cards for big crowds). The advantage is that everyone got one, except us foreigners, and everyone would have to bring it on travel anyway. Since most foreigners have a credit card, ID+CC could solve identification for 99% of the travellers. 

A "National travel card" would be even better, a hypothetical card that would identify you for prepaid ticket, carry some cash like a yikatong/octopus card, and could use that for travel in public transport in cities with RFID gates like Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen.


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## Pansori

The ID system makes sense (remember there is a problem of scalping in China due to high demand of tickets, especially during the New Year travel period). Foreigners have to show the ID and get their name printed on the ticket just like anybody else with a Chinese ID. The difference is that automated ticket machines in train stations won't read foreign IDs or passports. And that is really strange and inexcusable. I don't understand why this is so because technically there shouldn't be a problem to read any ID/Passport which has biometric data chip.

Does anyone have reasonable explanation why foreign IDs cannot be used with ticket machines?


----------



## Sunfuns

Pansori said:


> *The ID system makes sense (remember there is a problem of scalping in China due to high demand of tickets, especially during the New Year travel period).* Foreigners have to show the ID and get their name printed on the ticket just like anybody else with a Chinese ID. The difference is that automated ticket machines in train stations won't read foreign IDs or passports. And that is really strange and inexcusable. I don't understand why this is so because technically there shouldn't be a problem to read any ID/Passport which has biometric data chip.
> 
> Does anyone have reasonable explanation why foreign IDs cannot be used with ticket machines?


It's not a problem for airlines, is it? Nothing truly new needs to be invented here. Buy your ticket online, pay with your credit/debit card (if needed the system could put a limit to the number of tickets one can buy with one card), print your ticket with your name and a bar code on it, show your ID upon boarding a train. I don't see how scalpers would get around it easily...


----------



## SamuraiBlue

hkskyline said:


> This has nothing to do with the "communist party" and the supposed "red scare". All ticket purchasers must have a valid ID card and that identification will be on the ticket itself, just as all airline passengers around the world, including those in the West, need to show proper identification prior to boarding. Any airliner flying into the US will need to submit the passenger list beforehand so the US can monitor which foreigners are coming in.


Not for domestic flights you don't. 
I have traveled all around the world and I do not recall a single nation asking for my passport information when traveling domestically after I had passed immigration. 
Sorry your argument doesn't fly.


----------



## hkskyline

Sunfuns said:


> It's not a problem for airlines, is it? Nothing truly new needs to be invented here. Buy your ticket online, pay with your credit/debit card (if needed the system could put a limit to the number of tickets one can buy with one card), print your ticket with your name and a bar code on it, show your ID upon boarding a train. I don't see how scalpers would get around it easily...


That's essentially what they have implemented for the trains. Instead of having the name appear on the ticket, the ID number is displayed, which cannot be changed. The scalpers go away. 



SamuraiBlue said:


> Not for domestic flights you don't.
> I have traveled all around the world and I do not recall a single nation asking for my passport information when traveling domestically after I had passed immigration.
> Sorry your argument doesn't fly.


They will ask for your ID to check it matches the ticket at security and/or at boarding. Your credit card payment information can be surrendered to the government and they can track you down.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

hkskyline said:


> They will ask for your ID to check it matches the ticket at security and/or at boarding. Your credit card payment information can be surrendered to the government and they can track you down.


Which nation are you talking about?
The ticket owner is the ticket owner period. Democratic nations do not track foreigners without a reason and if you buy through cash there is no way a nation can track you.


----------



## foxmulder

^^ :nuts:

What is being discussed here? I cannot follow anymore


----------



## :jax:

SamuraiBlue said:


> Which nation are you talking about?
> The ticket owner is the ticket owner period. Democratic nations do not track foreigners without a reason and if you buy through cash there is no way a nation can track you.


On that side track, democratic and capitalistic countries do. Twenty-some years back what you said was true. As long as you had an airline ticket you were good to go, whether or not your name and the ticket name matched. You had to show your ID through security, but not at check-in. This was actually a thriving business as return tickets were almost half the price of an one-way ticket, in a some cases it would be cheaper to buy a return ticket and throw away the return. For instance India-Europe-India could be dramatically cheaper than Europe-India-Europe. And so on. So there was a good market in "matching tickets" to save on travel cost. 

The war on terror put an end to all that. Now you have to match your name with the ticket both with the airline and with security. If you want to change the name of the ticket you have to pay a surcharge that in some cases may be higher than the price of the ticket. Everybody wins except the consumer. 

I am not sure which country started registering rail tickets, it definitely wasn't China, possibly Spain. The reason seems to have been airline envy. Back in the days a ticket was valid for one person from point of origin to point of destination. Anyone could use a ticket using any train of that company/country at any time (depending on the train there could be a surcharge) with an unlimited number of stopovers on the way. Most of that is gone now, what's not gone is going. If I am not mistaken ID for train tickets is about to become the law in Europe. 

It has been for a while on ships, including ferries. The reason this time is in case of accidents. When a ship has sunk if there were no passenger list it was hard to know who were the survivors and who are still missing. 

Buses are the hangout, but not for long. The only truly ID-free long distance buses I have travelled with lately have been in China. With European buses you mostly give a name. Unlike air travel and sometimes train travel they don't actually check your name as long as you have a ticket, so bus travel is de facto anonymous. 

Which driving a car or renting a car isn't. You have to give an ID. Riding a taxi is still ID-free everywhere though, but few travel intercity with a taxi. Or by bicycle or walking. Anonymous travel is becoming a thing of the past, all the while travelling has become more common and more necessary. This seems to become an increasing problem for groups like e.g. illegal immigrants.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

:jax: said:


> On that side track, democratic and capitalistic countries do. Twenty-some years back what you said was true. As long as you had an airline ticket you were good to go, whether or not your name and the ticket name matched. You had to show your ID through security, but not at check-in. This was actually a thriving business as return tickets were almost half the price of an one-way ticket, in a some cases it would be cheaper to buy a return ticket and throw away the return. For instance India-Europe-India could be dramatically cheaper than Europe-India-Europe. And so on. So there was a good market in "matching tickets" to save on travel cost.
> 
> The war on terror put an end to all that. Now you have to match your name with the ticket both with the airline and with security. If you want to change the name of the ticket you have to pay a surcharge that in some cases may be higher than the price of the ticket. Everybody wins except the consumer.


I believe you are talking about international air travel, the question is about domestic travel.



:jax: said:


> I am not sure which country started registering rail tickets, it definitely wasn't China, possibly Spain. The reason seems to have been airline envy. Back in the days a ticket was valid for one person from point of origin to point of destination. Anyone could use a ticket using any train of that company/country at any time (depending on the train there could be a surcharge) with an unlimited number of stopovers on the way. Most of that is gone now, what's not gone is going. If I am not mistaken ID for train tickets is about to become the law in Europe.
> 
> It has been for a while on ships, including ferries. The reason this time is in case of accidents. When a ship has sunk if there were no passenger list it was hard to know who were the survivors and who are still missing.
> 
> Buses are the hangout, but not for long. The only truly ID-free long distance buses I have travelled with lately have been in China. With European buses you mostly give a name. Unlike air travel and sometimes train travel they don't actually check your name as long as you have a ticket, so bus travel is de facto anonymous.
> 
> Which driving a car or renting a car isn't. You have to give an ID. Riding a taxi is still ID-free everywhere though, but few travel intercity with a taxi. Or by bicycle or walking. Anonymous travel is becoming a thing of the past, all the while travelling has become more common and more necessary. This seems to become an increasing problem for groups like e.g. illegal immigrants.


Again mostly about cross border situation which does not apply for pure domestic travel.


----------



## :jax:

No, long distance travel (regional, not municipal or intercity). Whether you cross a border or not is almost incidental, especially in Europe after Schengen. Low-speed domestic regional trains may be different, I haven't taken one for a very long while, and I am sure it is possible to travel anonymously, but it is getting harder every year. 

The questions to ask are: Do they require you to register yourself when buying a ticket, do they check your ID against the name on the ticket, do they charge a significant fee to change the name on the ticket (to match your ID)? I don't think ground travel is quite there yet. On ferries they require your name, in case you drown, but not that the name matches the ticket. 

I have had to show my ID in China no more often than in many European countries or in the US. I do prefer to present my credentials on the train or bus instead of at a gate before it, airport style. Sitting down relaxed beats getting squeezed in a crowd possibly carrying luggage, but I can see why the transport companies prefer the gate. 

Who you are shouldn't be the transport company's concern, they are paid to get you from A to B, but they and the government both benefit from requiring that information.


----------



## hkskyline

Domestic air travelers need to present their ID at check-in and / or security to validate they are indeed the person on the ticket.

Whether a name or a passport ID is on the ticket is irrelevant. Either way, the transport company will have a way to identify you, and if the government requires that information, it will be surrendered to them.

Especially for air travel, there is no such thing as an anonymous passenger.


----------



## Sunfuns

That is true for airlines, but most domestic train travel in Europe could still be done anonymously. You only need to make sure that you buy your ticket using a ticket machine or at a ticket window and pay with cash.


----------



## Pansori

foxmulder said:


> ^^ :nuts:
> 
> What is being discussed here? I cannot follow anymore


The guy is clearly trolling. Reported to mods.


----------



## Sopomon

Pansori said:


> The guy is clearly trolling. Reported to mods.


You people have no idea what trolling is. An opinion that isn't the same as yours is not trolling, however ridiculous it may be.

In his opinion, communism means incessant ID checks (lol wat). It's really irritating watching easily-upset members of this forum claiming other parties are trolling when in actuality, they're just ignorant.


----------



## Pansori

Sopomon said:


> You people have no idea what trolling is. An opinion that isn't the same as yours is not trolling, however ridiculous it may be.
> 
> In his opinion, communism means incessant ID checks (lol wat). It's really irritating watching easily-upset members of this forum claiming other parties are trolling when in actuality, they're just ignorant.


The topic of this thread is HSR in China, not political systems or Communism. If it goes to such offtopic call it what you want (if not trolling) but it's not meant to be discussed here which is why it has been brought to the attention of forum moderators.


----------



## admns

*Nanjing-Hangzhou High-Speed Railway test run*


----------



## big-dog

admns said:


> When xiamen shenzen section will open?
> 
> Anyone?


October 2013


----------



## chornedsnorkack

admns said:


>


Last time it was said to open in July 2013. But what would the trip time be after opening?


----------



## Huti

Win XP?????


----------



## Sopomon

Huti said:


> Win XP?????


XP is actually a pretty robust OS.


----------



## hmmwv

SamuraiBlue said:


> Not for domestic flights you don't.
> I have traveled all around the world and I do not recall a single nation asking for my passport information when traveling domestically after I had passed immigration.
> Sorry your argument doesn't fly.


You still need a form of government issued photo ID to travel on domestic flights, for example in the US you are required to present your driver's license or state ID card, if you are a foreign national then you'll have to show TSA your passport.



luhai said:


> Buy something with a credit card in China... Have you even being to China? I know more people pay stuff using Q Coins than those that has and use credit cards, or have checking accounts. Majority of people's interaction with Banks are CDs (定期存款) and possibly savings accounts (活期存款). Outside of few shops and foreign owned business in big cities like Beijing and Shanghai, credit cards are not accepted, and when they are used, it's often the foreigners that's using it.
> 
> okay, let's go back HSR.


Credit card is pretty widely used in China now, almost all checking accounts now comes with a UnionPay debit card, most employers direct deposit paychecks to employees' checking accounts which are linked to the UnionPay cards. Visa, Master, and Amex are all very common in cities, but UnionPay is pretty much universal everywhere. Even small family owned restaurants in smaller towns have a POS machine that accepts UnionPay cards.


----------



## hmmwv

Huti said:


> Win XP?????


There are many Fortune 500 companies that are still using Windows 2000.

Shoe covers, seriously? :nuts:


----------



## luhai167

hmmwv said:


> Credit card is pretty widely used in China now, almost all checking accounts now comes with a UnionPay debit card, most employers direct deposit paychecks to employees' checking accounts which are linked to the UnionPay cards. Visa, Master, and Amex are all very common in cities, but UnionPay is pretty much universal everywhere. Even small family owned restaurants in smaller towns have a POS machine that accepts UnionPay cards.


UnionPay are not credits cards (no debt), it is linked to 活期存款 (which I see as saving accounts, since you can't write a check against it, or transfer it between individuals), you also needs to enter a pin every time you use. From from what I have seen, out of wealth people and people of the professional class (maybe 20-30% of urban population) people just use plain cash and CD in banks. If you look are online purchases, where credit card would make the most sense, it barely even registers.

http://chineseseoshifu.com/blog/online-payment-methods-china.html

In any case, you can't expect government to replie only on credit/debt to identify people when purchasing ticket to get around the scalper. (which is the post I'm responding to) Doing so will shut out vast majority of people, since most people in China doesn't own credit cards.


----------



## China Hand

-China has the largest installed base of XP in the world. If it is not broken, do not fix it.

-Shoe booties are for cleanliness as the train is on a test run and not for the public, yet. Those people are high rollers and the connected.



luhai167 said:


> From from what I have seen, out of wealth people and people of the professional class (maybe 20-30% of urban population) people just use plain cash and CD in banks. If you look are online purchases, where credit card would make the most sense, it barely even registers. Doing so will shut out vast majority of people, since most people in China doesn't own credit cards.


Many Chinese do not trust credit cards or any online transaction.

Some have a wallet full, to impress, but as a rule cash and CD's are used mostly. To buy online you can put money in the bank and it is transferred to the ebay like account and purchases made that way as a cash wire transfer.

99% of purchases are made face-to-face using cash.


----------



## phoenixboi08

luhai167 said:


> UnionPay are not credits cards (no debt), it is linked to 活期存款


Fun fact: I obviously can't speak for what he was thinking when he said it, but I can point out that often, we (maybe just in the US?) use "credit cards" for anything plastic. Even if it is a debit card (which can often still be used as credit cards).


----------



## China Hand

hmmwv said:


> You still need a form of government issued photo ID to travel on domestic flights, for example in the US you are required to present your driver's license or state ID card, if you are a foreign national then you'll have to show TSA your passport.


This used to not be the case. But after 2001...:storm:


----------



## hmmwv

luhai167 said:


> UnionPay are not credits cards (no debt), it is linked to 活期存款 (which I see as saving accounts, since you can't write a check against it, or transfer it between individuals), you also needs to enter a pin every time you use. From from what I have seen, out of wealth people and people of the professional class (maybe 20-30% of urban population) people just use plain cash and CD in banks. If you look are online purchases, where credit card would make the most sense, it barely even registers.
> 
> http://chineseseoshifu.com/blog/online-payment-methods-china.html
> 
> In any case, you can't expect government to replie only on credit/debt to identify people when purchasing ticket to get around the scalper. (which is the post I'm responding to) Doing so will shut out vast majority of people, since most people in China doesn't own credit cards.


You are right about UnionPay is not credit, but in its current form it's a debit card, just like we have Visa and MasterCard debit cards. So it can be used in the same way as a credit card. The issue at hand is whether the ticketing system can be modified in a way so it's easier to purchase tickets via kiosk or online, since UnionPay is already accepted as a payment method all the necessary infrastructure is there, all they have to do is to accept Visa, MC, and Amex. 

Obvious Chinese citizens can already purchase tickets online because they can enter their second gen ID number and pick up the tickets at the railway station kiosk by swiping their ID. It'll be more difficult for foreigners since there is no easy way to remotely validate our identities. Funny thing is that when I purchase a ticket in person all the ticket counter agent does is inputting my name and passport#, they are not checking it against any sort of database anyway. Thankgod there are so many ticketing offices around most Chinese cities so I have never had to travel to the railway station to purchase a ticket. 



phoenixboi08 said:


> Fun fact: I obviously can't speak for what he was thinking when he said it, but I can point out that often, we (maybe just in the US?) use "credit cards" for anything plastic. Even if it is a debit card (which can often still be used as credit cards).


Yeah I should have said plastic, since UnionPay is used in the same fashion as a Visa Debit Card.



China Hand said:


> Many Chinese do not trust credit cards or any online transaction.
> 
> Some have a wallet full, to impress, but as a rule cash and CD's are used mostly. To buy online you can put money in the bank and it is transferred to the ebay like account and purchases made that way as a cash wire transfer.
> 
> 99% of purchases are made face-to-face using cash.


I wouldn't say 99% because from what I have observed in cities at least a quarter of purchases are made using UnionPay cards. Chinese people are also very open to online purchases nowadays due to the availability of Alipay, it's often linked to their UnionPay account to transfer money, exactly like how PayPal works here in the States.

I think the only one complaining about the ticket buying experience are non Chinese citizens, because for Chinese they can just go to a railway kiosk, swip their ID and UnionPay card and get the ticket right there, a station often have 50 or so kiosks so a line is only five minute long. If they buy online and pick up at the station it's even quicker. I think even at large stations such as Hongqiao if you have the ticket in hand arriving 15 minutes before departure time is plenty to catch the train, if you bought it online and need to pick it up you should prepare 20 minutes, if you need to buy one right there then leave at least half an hour (well in a lot of cases it's too late anyway because it's sold out).


----------



## Sunfuns

phoenixboi08 said:


> Fun fact: I obviously can't speak for what he was thinking when he said it, but I can point out that often, we (maybe just in the US?) use "credit cards" for anything plastic. Even if it is a debit card (which can often still be used as credit cards).


That's absolutely true. When I wrote credit cards I meant any plastic cards with which it is possible to pay online and not exclusively Visa & Mastercard. Online marketplace might still be undeveloped in China, but unless there is a big crisis on horizon this is bound to change. 

And let me reiterate that no one here is advocating that being the only or even the main way of paying for tickets and validating one's identity. I was only suggesting it as one of the options! 


On a more "train" subject - when is HSR scheduled to reach Chongqing? Quick inspection of the map indicates that it is currently the biggest Chinese city without such a service. Will there be a direct service from there to Shanghai or Guangzhou?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Sunfuns said:


> On a more "train" subject - when is HSR scheduled to reach Chongqing? Quick inspection of the map indicates that it is currently the biggest Chinese city without such a service.


High speed railways Chongqing-Suining and Chongqing-Lichuan are under construction. How is the progress, and when are they due for opening?


Sunfuns said:


> Will there be a direct service from there to Shanghai or Guangzhou?


Not clear.

Yichang has direct service to Shanghai - but for some reason, none to Guangzhou, Changsha or Zhengzhou.


----------



## Banu22elos

This station looks so massive, it resembles a stadium.


----------



## phoenixboi08

E-commerce is HUGE in China...
It's a bigger market than in the US, last I heard.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> High speed railways Chongqing-Suining and Chongqing-Lichuan are under construction. How is the progress, and when are they due for opening?


Chongqing-Suining Railway Second Line was opened on Dec 30, 2012. Chongqing-Lichuan is under construction and on schedule, it's set to be completed by August 31st, 2013. Static acceptance review will be on Sept 25th, joint calibration and testing on Oct 1st, commercial operation starts on Dec 31st.


----------



## Xtartrex

One thing I really dislike in China is the protectionism(I mean no offense, we also do it in the states at some degree), can't they act normal just like the rest of the world? Visa, Amex and MasterCard are accepted worldwide, with very little exceptions, these setbacks are counter productive rather than helping.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

From
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=102202208&postcount=5160



> On March 14, the CRC, which took over the commercial functions of the former MOR, went into business.
> 
> The corporation said it is mobilizing resources to ensure the completion of key projects on schedule. The passenger lines between Nanjing and Hangzhou, Hangzhou and Ningbo, Tianjin and Qinhuangdao and Panjin and Yingkou have gone through technical examinations.
> 
> According to the national plan, China will invest 520 billion yuan in railway infrastructure this year and 5,200 km of new lines will be put into use.


How is the current progress of Tianjin-Qinhuangdao, and when is that high speed line due to open?


----------



## hmmwv

Xtartrex said:


> One thing I really dislike in China is the protectionism(I mean no offense, we also do it in the states at some degree), can't they act normal just like the rest of the world? Visa, Amex and MasterCard are accepted worldwide, with very little exceptions, these setbacks are counter productive rather than helping.


What part are they not acting normally as the rest of the world? Visa, Amex and MC are accepted in China, they are issued by many Chinese banks. They charge higher fees than local solutions such as UnionPay that's why most merchants use that. Since UnionPay is not accepted everywhere in the US, should the US be called protectionist because they are helping Visa and Amex? Speaking of protectionism there is no clearer example than US blocking Huaiwei and ZTE, but that's completely OT.




chornedsnorkack said:


> From
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=102202208&postcount=5160
> 
> 
> 
> How is the current progress of Tianjin-Qinhuangdao, and when is that high speed line due to open?


This line is progressing nicely, static acceptance was completed on March 29th, so it's still ontime for opening in August.


----------



## phoenixboi08

Xtartrex said:


> One thing I really dislike in China is the protectionism(I mean no offense, we also do it in the states at some degree), can't they act normal just like the rest of the world? Visa, Amex and MasterCard are accepted worldwide, with very little exceptions, these setbacks are counter productive rather than helping.


There was a WTO ruling not too long ago that they have to open that market more (they agreed to it when they joined back in the early aughties, but haven't done much since then). At this point, though, UnionPay is pretty much the de facto force. 

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, I guess. But I think they're learning that stifling competition hurts consumers, and in this next iteration of the economic growth, the consumer will be king.


----------



## Xtartrex

Hmm I live in China, it was hard for me to make payments for my internet and phone service locally without getting ripped, they only accepted Unionpay unconditionally which made me open an account and start using that service, but if you try paying anything outside China there's no deals with outsiders. So yes they are acting way different than the rest of the world.

When I talk about protectionism, I meant to say a different kind yet the same thing, as a matter of fact almost every nation does it some way or another, but in China is extremely obvious and there's no end in sight for now.

Cheers everyone :cheers:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

dao123 said:


> -------------------------
> 2 days later, this piece of news was released: http://www.ln.xinhuanet.com/newscenter/2013-03/26/c_115155097.htm
> 
> speed increase schedule is:
> 1. beginning of April: test train running at 300 km/h;
> 2. mid April: empty trains running at 300 km/h;
> 3. 21st April:all trains in service run at 300 km/h.


That´s on this Sunday, in 2 days. Any updates?


----------



## China Hand

Xtartrex said:


> One thing I really dislike in China is the protectionism(I mean no offense, we also do it in the states at some degree), can't they act normal just like the rest of the world? Visa, Amex and MasterCard are accepted worldwide, with very little exceptions, these setbacks are counter productive rather than helping.


The idea is to incubate Chinese business and industry, but there is a factor that precedes the 20th C. and has been common in Chinese culture for millennium.

Anyways, back to the trains!


----------



## China Hand

hmmwv said:


> This line is progressing nicely, static acceptance was completed on March 29th, so it's still ontime for opening in August.


How is progress on the Xi'an - Datong line coming along?


----------



## hmmwv

China Hand said:


> How is progress on the Xi'an - Datong line coming along?


Datong-Xi'an has kept a low profile and there isn't much news about it, AFAIK it's still on time and schedule to open next year. The bridge girder erection machine accident they had last year didn't seem to have affected the progress.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Then what are the high speed railways due to open this year?

Tomorrow - speeding up Harbin-Dalian high speed railway
July - Nanjing-Hangzhou-Ningbo high speed railway
August - Tianjin-Qinhuangdao high speed railway
October - Panjin-Yingkou high speed railway
Xiamen-Shenzhen high speed railway
December - Lichuan-Chongqing high speed railway

Is the list correct?


----------



## luhai

phoenixboi08 said:


> Fun fact: I obviously can't speak for what he was thinking when he said it, but I can point out that often, we (maybe just in the US?) use "credit cards" for anything plastic. Even if it is a debit card (which can often still be used as credit cards).


Unfortunately years of accounting / economics have drilled debt, credit, deposit and demand deposit in me, so not only credit card / debt card is different; cash card (also include the so call gift cards), debit card, ATM cards etc are all different animal to me as well. (However cash card, paypal, Alipay, SMS payments are the same, while Paypal, Alipay is different from QQ coin and BitCoin)

Also Visa, Master Card and union pay don't issue cards, they offer transaction processing services while the cards are issued by banks. (AMEX does both, which also do cash cards)

Back to HSR, has the reforms to MoR made any impact yet? I love to see purchasing window widened and being able to book tickets on travel websites (Like ctrip or qunar, or even in the future travelocity) rather than that online system that only works properly in Internet Explorer.


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> Then what are the high speed railways due to open this year?
> 
> Tomorrow - speeding up Harbin-Dalian high speed railway
> July - Nanjing-Hangzhou-Ningbo high speed railway
> August - Tianjin-Qinhuangdao high speed railway
> October - Panjin-Yingkou high speed railway
> Xiamen-Shenzhen high speed railway
> December - Lichuan-Chongqing high speed railway
> 
> Is the list correct?


What about Changsha-Kunming? Is not that scheduled to open this year also?


----------



## Huti

I was hoping to see some Linux goodies in China


----------



## dao123

chornedsnorkack said:


> That´s on this Sunday, in 2 days. Any updates?


here it comes.
Right now I can only find reports in Chinese. One of them by China Daily:http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/hqgj/jryw/2013-04-21/content_8821737.html

First 300km/h trains have set off at 9:20 in the morning , Beijing time.

The summer schedule will save passengers 1hr48min from Harbin to Dalian. The shortest travel time between these two places is now 3hr30min.


----------



## hmmwv

China Hand said:


> What about Changsha-Kunming? Is not that scheduled to open this year also?


Changsha-Kunming PDL (Part of Shanghai-Kunming HSR) didn't start construction until Sept 2010, and it's set to open late 2015.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Harbin-Dalian:
fastest 3:30 (G66 and G68), no D service left
Harbin-Shenyang:
fastest 1:58 (G66 and G68), fastest D train 2:22 (D602)
Harbin-Changchun:
fastest 0:54 (G66 and G68), fastest D train s 1:03 (D30 and D602)

Harbin-Jilin:
fastest 1:47 (G386), no D service left
Harbin-Beijing:
fastest 7:09 (D602)


----------



## Silly_Walks

^^

Does:

"Harbin-Beijing:
fastest 7:09 (D602)"

use the new 300 km/h line? If so: does the D train actually go 300 km/h on that section?

If no: why is there no G train from Beijing to Harbin, which partly runs on the upgraded track from Beijing to Shenyang, and then uses the full speed of the new line between Shenyang and Harbin?

The D train does seem to be faster than before, because when I took the D train nearly 2 years ago, it was about 8 hours for the fastest service.


----------



## foxmulder

^^ You kind of answered your own question, because of Beijing to Shenyang part.


----------



## Silly_Walks

foxmulder said:


> ^^ You kind of answered your own question, because of Beijing to Shenyang part.


D trains have a maximum speed of 200 km/h (used to be 250 km/h). However, the part from Shenyang to Harbin is capable of 300 km/h, so D trains don't take advantage of this.

That's why I asked whether there is a train from Beijing to Harbin that uses the upgraded track at 200 or 250 km/h, and then uses the new track from Shenyang to Harbin at 300 km/h.

I certainly did not answer that question myself :nuts:


----------



## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> Then what are the high speed railways due to open this year?
> 
> Tomorrow - speeding up Harbin-Dalian high speed railway
> July - Nanjing-Hangzhou-Ningbo high speed railway
> August - Tianjin-Qinhuangdao high speed railway
> October - Panjin-Yingkou high speed railway
> Xiamen-Shenzhen high speed railway
> *December - Lichuan-Chongqing high speed railway*
> 
> Is the list correct?


I'm expecting Lichuan-Chongqing HSR opening so I can take the HSR all along from Shanghai to Chengdu :cheers:


----------



## big-dog

4.21 Harbin-Dalian HSR start summer time-space diagram










by @CNR轨道交通前线


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Silly_Walks said:


> ^^
> 
> Does:
> 
> "Harbin-Beijing:
> fastest 7:09 (D602)"
> 
> use the new 300 km/h line? If so: does the D train actually go 300 km/h on that section?


It covers Harbin West-Changchun West-Shenyang North in 2:22, and the distance is 538 km. This is impossible at 200 km/h.
Schedule does not show actual top speed, though.


Silly_Walks said:


> If no: why is there no G train from Beijing to Harbin, which partly runs on the upgraded track from Beijing to Shenyang, and then uses the full speed of the new line between Shenyang and Harbin?


Not sure why, but I think there are no G trains on slow lines elsewhere in China either.


Silly_Walks said:


> The D train does seem to be faster than before, because when I took the D train nearly 2 years ago, it was about 8 hours for the fastest service.


D602 runs only Harbin-Beijing. In the direction Beijing-Harbin, fastest D trains seem to be 7:52 still.


----------



## katzberg

It looks pretty good...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> While it needs denser freight lines in central and eastern provinces, it won't need as many freight lines that span across the whole country.


Spanning across Tibet is not particularly efficient because of mountains - only serving Tibet itself needs a crossing. But the 22 million population of Xinjiang means that all natural resources extracted from Xinjiang must be transported to east overland - except what is exported, also overland, to Kazakhstan or through Kazakhstan to Russia or Europe. And all supplies to Xinjiang must also be transported there overland.

As for, say, Kashgar-Hotan railway, note that the 3 prefectures it serves - Kashgar, Hotan, Kizilsu Autonomous - have a combined population of 6,5 millions. As much as the whole State of Arizona.

It is true that due to Kunlun and Gobi, the best railway route to connect the whole Xinjiang with eastern China is through Gansu corridor, branching westwards to serve the various parts of Xinjiang, whereas the similarly populous American Desert is served by multiple transcontinental railways crossing the Rockies at several points. Yet China does plan a parallel railway Golmud-Korla, undertaking for some reason to cross the Altyn-Tagh mountains.


----------



## d_rk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS39K0dzi2U


----------



## hhouse

gdolniak said:


> I won't argue about it, but the above photo was taken at the beginning of January (see the dates on the board) during the Chinese New Year rush. Please remember, that any other period of the year, the lines aren't that long.


Well, when I was last July in China it also looked like this on a Monday at Harbin Railway station (on the upper floor it was exactly the same as on the ground floor in the pic):










In Beijing, Shanghai and Fuzhou it was much easier to buy tickets, there were almost no queues.


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> As well as places needing 4 tracks just for passengers.
> 
> How does the capacity of a 4 track line compare with capacity of two parallel but distant railways of 2 tracks each?


It really depends on the traffic on each set of track. Mixed traffic reduces capacity a lot, so the current HSR buildout is designed to remove a lot of passenger traffic from the existing network which is mixed freight/passenger.

Here are some ballpark figures for China

*Dedicated High Speed Rail*
200-350km/h
150 trains per day
1000 passengers per train

*Daqin Dedicated Freight*
120km/h
60 trains per day
20000 tonnes per train

*Mixed Traffic Conventional Trunkline (eg. Shanghai-Beijing)*
200km/h max
60 passenger trains per day
1000 passengers per train
15 freight trains per day
5000 tonnes per train


----------



## luhai

gdolniak said:


> I won't argue about it, but the above photo was taken at the beginning of January (see the dates on the board) during the Chinese New Year rush. Please remember, that any other period of the year, the lines aren't that long.


You can tell me that when I was traveling in June and watch tickets been sold out right in front of my eyes.... Don't say stuff when you have not experienced it, not everything you saw on TV is true.


----------



## big-dog

foxmulder said:


> Frankly, I am very suprised to see the change on this forum regarding Chinese rail investment. People used to claim China was over-investing to rail. Now, apparently, most people think China is not investing enough and should reach #1 in even per capita rail  What a turn around!


Per new National Urban Planning by the government, the 2020 rail operational length target is set at *146,000 km*, up by 26,000 km from previous planning. Commuter rail and city cluster rail will replace HSR to become the investment focus. i.e. Pearl River Delta's total rail projection is 370 bln yuan ($59.2 bln), 118 bln ($18.88bln) wll be completed between 2012 and 2020.

link


----------



## gdolniak

luhai said:


> You can tell me that when I was traveling in June and watch tickets been sold out right in front of my eyes.... Don't say stuff when you have not experienced it, not everything you saw on TV is true.


In my earlier post I said that I don't argue about the pictures or the situation and I still confirm that lines in any other period of a year, outside of Chinese New Year, are not as long as during the holidays.

China needs to invest in their transportation network, either highway or railway, and is doing so. I don't argue against it. I know, that after many years of neglect, this needs to be still improved.

Dear luhai - following your post - I live in China and I know about it. I have experienced that multiple times. I have also experience situations, when, for example I couldn't buy a ticket from Jingjiang, Fujian to Ningbo, Zhejiang, because "there were no seats left", so the only ticket I got was to Wenzhou. Interesting enough, after Wenzhou, when I prepared to stand the rest of the way, I realized that the train was empty. Go figure. Such situations happened many times.

You show a picture of a full car. Very nice. You look quite handsome on the photos. Computer ticketing system in China sells the tickets from the 1st seat in the 1st car up, so you can have 4 cars full of people and the next 4 cars virtually empty. Some other internal restrictions don't allow for better allocation of seats (see my description above). On this forum, several pages earlier was a photo of an empty high speed car from Shanghai to Hangzhou, with the same situation. Someone snapped a picture of an empty car, when behind him were full ones. At that time they claimed that the trains run empty.

Sometimes, efficiency is not in building more, but running it better. You will also agree that requiring IDs for some short train routes (i.e. Shenzhen - Guangzhou, Zhuhai - Guangzhou, etc.) creates a nuisance and frustration to the passengers, since the ticket clerks cannot work as fast as they could. Lo Wu station is probably the best example, having to deal with not only foreigners but also Hong Kong people (yes, their IDs do not work in the ticket machines). Please note that the ticket scalping simply doesn't exist on lines with trains running every 15 minutes or so.

Another example: buying train tickets in advance in China. What is it now? 10 days? How about any other country in the world? 3 months or more? Would allowing people, especially migrant workers, to buy tickets 3 to 6 months in advance shorten the queues at the train stations? I bet it would. But then, they couldn't show on the TV how the government with the army truly works very hard to accommodate their people.

Enough said.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

Chinese planners have realized the true monetary costs of traffic congestion while American politicians are still in denial of such truths...

If the American public (and politicians) could grasp the underhand costs incurred of not building the system, they would not object to spending $100 billion dollars to build an HSR network.


----------



## sacto7654

Silver Swordsman said:


> Chinese planners have realized the true monetary costs of traffic congestion while American politicians are still in denial of such truths...
> 
> If the American public (and politicians) could grasp the underhand costs incurred of not building the system, they would not object to spending $100 billion dollars to build an HSR network.


Here's the problem: it would cost a *HUGE* amount of money just to get the right of way for a high-speed rail system here in the USA. For example, to get the right of way to get the _Acela_ trains to consistently run over 120 mph between Washington, DC and Boston would require buying right of way and doing current right of way improvements that could run into the several tens of billions of US dollars. And that's not including building sound walls and/or soundproofing buildings near the tracks when you have trains blasting by with noise levels like this:






China, because of its Communist rule, can build their CRH system because the government will have their way to where to construct the line--something the USA doesn't have.


----------



## luhai

gdolniak said:


> In my earlier post I said that I don't argue about the pictures or the situation and I still confirm that lines in any other period of a year, outside of Chinese New Year, are not as long as during the holidays.
> 
> China needs to invest in their transportation network, either highway or railway, and is doing so. I don't argue against it. I know, that after many years of neglect, this needs to be still improved.
> 
> Dear luhai - following your post - I live in China and I know about it. I have experienced that multiple times. I have also experience situations, when, for example I couldn't buy a ticket from Jingjiang, Fujian to Ningbo, Zhejiang, because "there were no seats left", so the only ticket I got was to Wenzhou. Interesting enough, after Wenzhou, when I prepared to stand the rest of the way, I realized that the train was empty. Go figure. Such situations happened many times.
> 
> You show a picture of a full car. Very nice. You look quite handsome on the photos. Computer ticketing system in China sells the tickets from the 1st seat in the 1st car up, so you can have 4 cars full of people and the next 4 cars virtually empty. Some other internal restrictions don't allow for better allocation of seats (see my description above). On this forum, several pages earlier was a photo of an empty high speed car from Shanghai to Hangzhou, with the same situation. Someone snapped a picture of an empty car, when behind him were full ones. At that time they claimed that the trains run empty.
> 
> Sometimes, efficiency is not in building more, but running it better. You will also agree that requiring IDs for some short train routes (i.e. Shenzhen - Guangzhou, Zhuhai - Guangzhou, etc.) creates a nuisance and frustration to the passengers, since the ticket clerks cannot work as fast as they could. Lo Wu station is probably the best example, having to deal with not only foreigners but also Hong Kong people (yes, their IDs do not work in the ticket machines). Please note that the ticket scalping simply doesn't exist on lines with trains running every 15 minutes or so.
> 
> Another example: buying train tickets in advance in China. What is it now? 10 days? How about any other country in the world? 3 months or more? Would allowing people, especially migrant workers, to buy tickets 3 to 6 months in advance shorten the queues at the train stations? I bet it would. But then, they couldn't show on the TV how the government with the army truly works very hard to accommodate their people.
> 
> Enough said.


I was traveling in June on my rail trips in China, the cars are indeed full and I constantly have trouble buying tickets. (Often not getting the train I want, because it's all sold out. I started just after the college entrance exams are done... I guess lots of people travel afterwards) This is before I have neither Union Pay or National ID card. I did the best I could with ticket windows, but no luck. Also there was lots of confusion about tickets, sometimes the all sold out ticket are not truly all sold out if you go to the window in person rather than through an agent at the hotel. But then, that never happend to me. Just stories when I travel, people keeps telling different things. Actually, one of the lady from Tai'an station told me there might be tickets in Jinan's windows (So I actually get a standing ticket to Jinan, never knew there was such as thing as standing ticket for HSRs), but on her system it shows all sold out. Which is the origins of that picture.

For short route, I think it's would be better if they can integrate metro-card into the mix and use unreserved seating. (Essentially running it as a inter-city metro) After all, it's just a 30 minute trip, not a cross country train trip. 

I did buy Amtrak tickets before, I don't think it's possible to do it 3 month prior. I believe it was two weeks, when I booked it. And I need to show my driver's clients to exchange my online print out with an actual tickets. However, it's not a pure train trip, it's train-bus-train trips with most of the time spent on a bus. (5 hours for just 250 miles, but I have no other choice. I don't own a car back then.)


----------



## foxmulder

big-dog said:


> Per new National Urban Planning by the government, the 2020 rail operational length target is set at *146,000 km*, up by 26,000 km from previous planning. Commuter rail and city cluster rail will replace HSR to become the investment focus. i.e. Pearl River Delta's total rail projection is 370 bln yuan ($59.2 bln), 118 bln ($18.88bln) wll be completed between 2012 and 2020.
> 
> link



Well, that's the next logical and expected step for rail development. Once the backbone is in place these additional developments will be bonuses 

This decade will be remembered in the future for infrastructure development. Not only high speed rail but with other big impact projects in energy and urbanization...


----------



## Silly_Walks

sacto7654 said:


> . And that's not including building sound walls and/or soundproofing buildings near the tracks when you have trains blasting by with noise levels like this:


None of the modern, light weight, high speed trains on new track I have come across have come close to the noise production of the heavy, slow speed Amtrak colossi on worn down freight tracks I have experienced.


----------



## hmmwv

luhai said:


> I was traveling in June on my rail trips in China, the cars are indeed full and I constantly have trouble buying tickets. (Often not getting the train I want, because it's all sold out. I started just after the college entrance exams are done... I guess lots of people travel afterwards) This is before I have neither Union Pay or National ID card. I did the best I could with ticket windows, but no luck. Also there was lots of confusion about tickets, sometimes the all sold out ticket are not truly all sold out if you go to the window in person rather than through an agent at the hotel. But then, that never happend to me. Just stories when I travel, people keeps telling different things. Actually, one of the lady from Tai'an station told me there might be tickets in Jinan's windows (So I actually get a standing ticket to Jinan, never knew there was such as thing as standing ticket for HSRs), but on her system it shows all sold out. Which is the origins of that picture.
> 
> For short route, I think it's would be better if they can integrate metro-card into the mix and use unreserved seating. (Essentially running it as a inter-city metro) After all, it's just a 30 minute trip, not a cross country train trip.
> 
> I did buy Amtrak tickets before, I don't think it's possible to do it 3 month prior. I believe it was two weeks, when I booked it. And I need to show my driver's clients to exchange my online print out with an actual tickets. However, it's not a pure train trip, it's train-bus-train trips with most of the time spent on a bus. (5 hours for just 250 miles, but I have no other choice. I don't own a car back then.)


I agree with what you are saying, but just for the record Amtrak allows booking up to 11 months in advance.


----------



## China Hand

luhai said:


> This is before I have neither Union Pay or National ID card. I did the best I could with ticket windows, but no luck. Also there was lots of confusion about tickets, sometimes the all sold out ticket are not truly all sold out if you go to the window in person rather than through an agent at the hotel.


Tickets are sold beginning 20 to 10 days prior to the date of travel. This happens on 12306 as well as the windows and agents and train ticket offices all over China.

You have to plan ahead, especially after June 8 when the students finish exams and then after June 30 when all other students are done with school and go home and families travel.

If you were to fly, you would want to book your trip and hotel this week for early July.


----------



## skyridgeline

sacto7654 said:


> ...
> 
> ...
> 
> *China, because of its Communist rule, can build their CRH system because the government will have their way to where to construct the line--something the USA doesn't have*.


I wonder how the "Interstate" was built :dunno: .


----------



## luhai

China Hand said:


> You have to plan ahead, especially after June 8 when the students finish exams and then after June 30 when all other students are done with school and go home and families travel.
> 
> If you were to fly, you would want to book your trip and hotel this week for early July.


Actually my philosophy with traveling is to book the ticket the day of or the day before the ride. This way, my travel is around my sightseeing, rather than the other way around.

It would be great if there are special cars with metrol style seating, and ticketing for short distance trips. It would be benefited a lot for my little trip.


----------



## big-dog

sacto7654 said:


> China, because of its Communist rule, can build their CRH system because the government will have their way to where to construct the line--something the USA doesn't have.


Not always. I heard the Beijing-Shenyang HSR has to change route and delay schedule due to the protests from local residents.


----------



## big-dog

Nanjing-Hangzhou and Hangzhou-Ningbo HSR opening date disclosed, *June 30th 2013*



by @东南商报


----------



## chornedsnorkack

What shall the trip time be Nanjing-Hangzhou-Ningbo from 30th of June?


----------



## hmmwv

luhai said:


> Actually my philosophy with traveling is to book the ticket the day of or the day before the ride. This way, my travel is around my sightseeing, rather than the other way around.
> 
> It would be great if there are special cars with metrol style seating, and ticketing for short distance trips. It would be benefited a lot for my little trip.


They always sell standing tickets, so for very short trips (<30 min) I'll jump on the first train available regardless whether a seat is available, and for vast majority of them there are open seats, if not I can always sit in the dining car.


----------



## big-dog

CRH6 at Guangzhou South Station










by 高铁见闻


----------



## ddes

Sometimes I wish China could do away with the black strip along the window line. I think they'd look better without it. But then again, if they removed it, it'd look too much like the Japanese ones.


----------



## Sopomon

The black line is the rail equivalent of sports cars being painted 'go faster red'


----------



## hmmwv

CRH2 and CRH5 don't have the black strip, but I think they look kinda boring.


----------



## foxmulder

In an artist' s hands these trains may look great. I think they should run a competition for these trains' paint job. Not for all trains but for some of them on select routes for promotion


----------



## FM 2258

Interestingly enough there's something I really love about the CRH5. Is the CRH6 already in service or is it just doing test runs from Guangzhou South Railway Station?


----------



## hmmwv

I'm fairly certain it's not in commercial service.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Thanks *hmmwv*. I assume this CRH6 will do runs between Guangzhou and Zhuhai? I have a feeling they will keep CRH1's for the Guangzhou to Shenzhen (Guanzhen Railway).


----------



## hmmwv

Yes Guangzhou-Zhuhai Intercity is suppose to be CRH6's maiden line.


----------



## China Hand

Xi'an - Datong has begun laying rail and installation of infrastructure. Poles to hold the caternary can be seen.


----------



## saiho

hmmwv said:


> Yes Guangzhou-Zhuhai Intercity is suppose to be CRH6's maiden line.


What other lines will use the CRH6 other than the PRD intercity network? Shanghai's Jinshan? Chendu's Chengdu–Dujiangyan? Changchun–Jilin?


----------



## Huti

So CRH6 is a fully domestic product? No foreign licenses?


----------



## foxmulder

Is there a foreign company that produce CRH6?


----------



## Silly_Walks

foxmulder said:


> Is there a foreign company that produce CRH6?


Depends what country you are from :lol:


----------



## k.k.jetcar

ddes said:


> Sometimes I wish China could do away with the black strip along the window line. I think they'd look better without it. But then again, if they removed it, it'd look too much like the Japanese ones.


Hmm, look at this (700 series Hikari Railstar, in use since _2000_):


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> What are the interiors of these trains like?


They are nice. Gloved attendants. 2nd class seats are comfortable but a bit crowded and has families on event trips. It's a big deal. Finding room for your luggage may be an issue in 2nd class, but only sometimes. Other classes this is not an issue.

Business/1st class has very spacious seats, much like business class in an airplane. It's quiet seasoned travelers sleeping in those classes. Leg room to cross your legs and stretch out, wide seats.

Principle/Special class is the top and only on a few trains on some lines. Single Seat Pods that recline to full flat beds, tv screen at the seat, free meal included.

Sound reduction, wind and rail noise is still good after 3+ years of the older trainsets. They don't pitch from side to side, the ride is smooth and quiet, and they leave on time and arrive a minute or two early.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

I see that a few D trains which travel at a high speed in daytime nevertheless have soft sleepers. Notably the trains D315, Beijing-Shanghai, and D365, Beijing-Shanghai-Fuzhou.

What CRH trainsets have sleeper cabins?


----------



## FM 2258

How is the food on CRH trains? I've only been on a CRH1 from Guangzhou East to Shenzhen in 2010 but did not visit a dining car.


----------



## urbanfan89

FM 2258 said:


> How is the food on CRH trains? I've only been on a CRH1 from Guangzhou East to Shenzhen in 2010 but did not visit a dining car.


From what I've experienced, the food is better than airline meals, but average. The price is exorbitant and is about 3 to 4 times what you'd expect at a hole-in-the-wall place in Beijing or Shanghai.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

urbanfan89 said:


> From what I've experienced, the food is better than airline meals, but average. The price is exorbitant and is about 3 to 4 times what you'd expect at a hole-in-the-wall place in Beijing or Shanghai.


Are the hole-in-the wall places referring to the places somewhere in the city, or hole-in-the-wall places within the buildings of high speed railway stations?

Do any amenities whatsoever exist on the platform side of ticket and security checks in high speed railway stations?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> What CRH trainsets have sleeper cabins?


CRH1E, CRH2E



chornedsnorkack said:


> Are the hole-in-the wall places referring to the places somewhere in the city, or hole-in-the-wall places within the buildings of high speed railway stations?
> 
> Do any amenities whatsoever exist on the platform side of ticket and security checks in high speed railway stations?


Compare to normal place in the city, the food vendors are pretty reasonably priced because there are always choices right outside the stations. I don't know any HSR stations that offers any kind of food services after passing the ticketing gates. I've seen vending machines though. It's not necessary though since you are only allowed on the platform minutes before departure so no one is suppose to linger on the platform, thus no time to purchase any food. There are plenty in the waiting room anyway.


----------



## philip

sacto7654 said:


> Here's the problem: it would cost a *HUGE* amount of money just to get the right of way for a high-speed rail system here in the USA. For example, to get the right of way to get the _Acela_ trains to consistently run over 120 mph between Washington, DC and Boston would require buying right of way and doing current right of way improvements that could run into the several tens of billions of US dollars. And that's not including building sound walls and/or soundproofing buildings near the tracks when you have trains blasting by with noise levels like this:
> 
> 
> China, because of its Communist rule, can build their CRH system because the government will have their way to where to construct the line--something the USA doesn't have.


So you are saying Europe and Japan are *communist* too.


----------



## gdolniak

philip said:


> So you are saying Europe and Japan are *communist* too.


Don't forget Taiwan ;-)


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Night originating trains*

I discovered that in addition to D overnight stains, sometimes making some stops at night, which still make sense, China also has D trains originating at odd hours of the night.

For example, destined for Shanghai:
D672, Nanchang-Hongqiao, originates 1:32, arrives 9:28
D636, Yingtan-Hongqiao, originates 2:40, arrives 9:23
D638/D644, Yingtan-Hongqiao, originates 3:04, arrives 9:51
D629/D632, Zhengzhou-Hongqiao, originates 3:50, arrives 10:46.

What kind of trains serve these routes?
And what is the goal of such scheduling?


----------



## China Hand

urbanfan89 said:


> From what I've experienced, the food is better than airline meals, but average. The price is exorbitant and is about 3 to 4 times what you'd expect at a hole-in-the-wall place in Beijing or Shanghai.


Agreed. It's ok food but not great. To get good food at good prices you need to buy something before you arrive at the CRH train station. These stations are often out of the way and do not have many local amenities as the older train stations do. The food is standard airport corporate contract bidding fare, and it's absurdly overpriced.

If you can get a meal and eat at your local restaurant before the trip, and bring a bag of snacks you buy before you arrive at the station, you can save 100Yuan easily. They have lessened restrictions so bringing liquids in should be ok, now. Should. Don't hold me to that.

Anything you buy in the ZHGT CRH train or station will be very overpriced. Just like any airport, anywhere.

So plan ahead and eat before you leave and pick up some snacks before you leave home. You will save YYY


----------



## China Hand

philip said:


> So you are saying Europe and Japan are *communist* too.


He probably means Dirigiste with very limited private property rights.

_France_ is more Socialist than the PRC at this stage but has more property rights.

The USA is not very Dirigisme and has very strong property rights but those are weakening.


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> Are the hole-in-the wall places referring to the places somewhere in the city, or hole-in-the-wall places within the buildings of high speed railway stations?
> 
> Do any amenities whatsoever exist on the platform side of ticket and security checks in high speed railway stations?


No. Once you go from the terminal through the ticket scanner, you go to the train. There are no amenities other than stairs, elevators and escalators.

The terminals, however, are equipped with modern food court chain restaurants and more than ample seating while you wait. Many LED tv's, newstands, the usual.


----------



## urbanfan89

China Hand said:


> Agreed. It's ok food but not great. To get good food at good prices you need to buy something before you arrive at the CRH train station. These stations are often out of the way and do not have many local amenities as the older train stations do. The food is standard airport corporate contract bidding fare, and it's absurdly overpriced.


Not just that. The rail stations are so huge that it's almost impossible to walk to a local restaurant, have lunch, and walk back in time.


----------



## Cosmicbliss

urbanfan89 said:


> Not just that. The rail stations are so huge that it's almost impossible to walk to a local restaurant, have lunch, and walk back in time.


Here in India, a lot of people pack food and take it, as they dont like/trust the railway food. How is the situation in China? Do people prefer to pack food?
Also, in terms of passengers ridership is the China railways now the biggest railway in the world?


----------



## urbanfan89

Cosmicbliss said:


> Here in India, a lot of people pack food and take it, as they dont like/trust the railway food. How is the situation in China? Do people prefer to pack food?
> Also, in terms of passengers ridership is the China railways now the biggest railway in the world?


High speed journeys are in most cases too short to require meals.

Regular trains are another matter. Those lucky enough to obtain a sleeper can use the restaurant cars, which are actually fairly decent.

In the lower classes, as many people as possible are pushed into the train, so it's literally impossible to move. The only chance for respite is during a station stop, where platform attendants sell snacks at a marked up price. Until the railways ministry banned access to platforms by non-passengers, hundreds of locals would sell treats through windows.

Inside the train, attendants carry hot water bottles to fill up tea cups and instant noodle bowls. So much so that by the end of the journey, the train stinks of instant noodles.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Are any packaged meals, such as bento boxes, produced and sold in China?


----------



## Cosmicbliss

urbanfan89 said:


> High speed journeys are in most cases too short to require meals.
> 
> Regular trains are another matter. Those lucky enough to obtain a sleeper can use the restaurant cars, which are actually fairly decent.
> 
> In the lower classes, as many people as possible are pushed into the train, so it's literally impossible to move. The only chance for respite is during a station stop, where platform attendants sell snacks at a marked up price. Until the railways ministry banned access to platforms by non-passengers, hundreds of locals would sell treats through windows.
> 
> Inside the train, attendants carry hot water bottles to fill up tea cups and instant noodle bowls. So much so that by the end of the journey, the train stinks of instant noodles.


So in regular trains, nobody packs food? Is there a culture of sharing food with other passengers? Also, how far in advance do you have to book tickets to get them? Here in India, sometimes even a month in advance tickets get booked.

One thing I am curious about is the impact of the rapid modernization of railways on the ordinary person. Due to this rapid development, has tourism/study movement increased a lot within China? Prior to this modernisation, was there very little movement within the country?


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> Are any packaged meals, such as bento boxes, produced and sold in China?


On the sleeper trains, you could buy bento-type boxes with rice/noodles/veg/meat etc


----------



## China Hand

Old trains routinely have carts that sell instant noodles, soup, snacks, soda, juice and tea. Over priced but not very. Hot water on a cart and at the ends of most cars to cook instant noodles with, and many people bring instant noodles.

CRH not so much, but some do. As others posted the trips are too short. Longer trips they serve you a meal.

"Over priced" in China means that noodles that are 2 or 3 RMB are sold for 5 or 6 RMB. Increases from .3 Euro to .6 Euro so it is very inexpensive by most other nation's standards.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> CRH not so much, but some do. As others posted the trips are too short. Longer trips they serve you a meal.


How short is too short? Remember, time spent on moving train is time otherwise wasted... opportunity to consume a meal during movement (and not mess up the train) would be useful.


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> Remember, time spent on a moving train is time otherwise wasted.


Any train trip of fewer than 3 hours will not serve a meal and time spent on a moving train is NEVER wasted time.

You need to slow down.


----------



## gdolniak

China Hand said:


> Any train trip of fewer than 3 hours will not serve a meal and time spent on a moving train is NEVER wasted time.
> 
> You need to slow down.


Guangzhou East - Shenzhen (Luo Hu) - they serve (boxed) meals, coffee-like liquid and tea (haven't had a pleasure to taste it yet). Time travel ~1:20


----------



## chornedsnorkack

gdolniak said:


> Guangzhou East - Shenzhen (Luo Hu) - they serve (boxed) meals, coffee-like liquid and tea (haven't had a pleasure to taste it yet). Time travel ~1:20


Almost always 1:19 for East - Shenzhen. Usually 1:31...1:32 from Guangzhou.

There is, for example, only one train grom Guangzhou arriving in Shenzhen before 8. The first train, D7001, departs Guangzhou at 6:03, Guangzhou East 6:15, arrives Luohu 7:34.
The second train, D7021, originates Guangzhou East 6:30, arrives Luohu 7:49. The second train from Guangzhou, D7043, departs 6:38, Guangzhou East 6:51 - and arrival in Luohu is 8:10 already. And you still need to navigate Shenzhen itself from Luohu to whatever your destination is.

What are the typical times that the businesses and schools open in Shenzhen in the morning and require workers and pupils to report for duty?

And when do the restaurants in Guangzhou Station open in the morning? Can you consume a breakfast in Guangzhou Station before catching the 6:03 train?
Even if you could, you could still sleep longer by catching the train without breakfast and consuming your breakfast in these otherwise wasted 1:31 on the moving train.


----------



## luhai

D3206 broke down in a tunnel, and it stuck there for 5 hours. Passengers has to broke the windows for air. The train was finally towed into station by a the common DF4
http://politics.gmw.cn/2013-05/30/content_7796438_2.htm#Content_Title
http://news.ifeng.com/mainland/detail_2013_05/30/25875207_0.shtml
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/dfpd/fujian/2013-05-30/content_9174942.html


----------



## gdolniak

luhai said:


> D3206 broke down in a tunnel, and it stuck there for 5 hours. Passengers has to broke the windows for air. The train was finally towed into station by a the common DF4
> http://politics.gmw.cn/2013-05/30/content_7796438_2.htm#Content_Title
> http://news.ifeng.com/mainland/detail_2013_05/30/25875207_0.shtml
> http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/dfpd/fujian/2013-05-30/content_9174942.html
> [...]


Train braking down is one thing, but the problem with the air inside such train when the A/C is not working must be awful. See article from Spiegel about broken down air-conditioning systems on German high-speed trains from 2010: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/the-world-from-berlin-deutsche-bahn-is-soft-boiling-its-customers-a-706889.html

How it is done in Japan, France or other countries? Do passengers also are suffering in such situation?


----------



## gdolniak

*Bullet Train Construction Bidding to Pick-up*

*Bullet Train Construction Bidding to Pick-up*
New, page 2

~ Invitations to bid on for freight train production will be sent to locomotive producers in June, followed soon after by invitations to bid on bullet train production. However, the specific date for the latter is still unknown.
~ Bullet train production has been at a virtual standstill for the two years since the train crash in Wenzhou on July 23, 2011 that killed 40 people. Most railway lines and carriages under construction were delayed for safety concerns, which worried suppliers of railway equipment.
~ Because of speed reductions mandated after the crash, the number of bidding invitations issued for bullet trains has declined in recent years, while invitations for other kinds of carriages remained flat. 
~ Assessment of bidding companies for their technological research and development ability, quality assurance and technology management have now been stopped. The coming bid invitations are expected to give many private companies new opportunities.
~ The biggest change for the coming bidding is that who will be invited to bid will now be decided by local railways bureaus. This is because under new railway reforms, local railways bureaus now have more management, investment and construction rights. After these bureaus decide on who can bid, China Railway Corporation will collect the information and then release the invitations.
~ It's estimated that the bidding will affect construction of over 400 new trains. 
Original article: [Chinese]

http://www.eeo.com.cn/ens/2013/0603/244872.shtml


----------



## big-dog

*Hangzhou-Changsha HSR (U/C)*

933km, crossing Zhejiang, Jiangxi and Hunan Provinces, open in 2014.










by 中国铁路


----------



## foxmulder

gdolniak said:


> *Bullet Train Construction Bidding to Pick-up*
> New, page 2
> 
> ~ Invitations to bid on for freight train production will be sent to locomotive producers in June, followed soon after by invitations to bid on bullet train production. However, the specific date for the latter is still unknown.
> ~ Bullet train production has been at a virtual standstill for the two years since the train crash in Wenzhou on July 23, 2011 that killed 40 people. Most railway lines and carriages under construction were delayed for safety concerns, which worried suppliers of railway equipment.
> ~ Because of speed reductions mandated after the crash, the number of bidding invitations issued for bullet trains has declined in recent years, while invitations for other kinds of carriages remained flat.
> ~ Assessment of bidding companies for their technological research and development ability, quality assurance and technology management have now been stopped. The coming bid invitations are expected to give many private companies new opportunities.
> ~ The biggest change for the coming bidding is that who will be invited to bid will now be decided by local railways bureaus. This is because under new railway reforms, local railways bureaus now have more management, investment and construction rights. After these bureaus decide on who can bid, China Railway Corporation will collect the information and then release the invitations.
> ~ It's estimated that the bidding will affect construction of over 400 new trains.
> Original article: [Chinese]
> 
> http://www.eeo.com.cn/ens/2013/0603/244872.shtml



Come on CRH500


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> *Hangzhou-Changsha HSR (U/C)*
> 
> 933km, crossing Zhejiang, Jiangxi and Hunan Provinces, open in 2014.


Which month of 2014?

Does the railway go through central Nanchang, or elsewhere?

When the railway opens, which shall be the shorter route Nanchang-Beijing: Nanchang-Changsha-Wuhan-Beijing, or Nanchang-Hangzhou-Nanjing-Beijing?


----------



## Xtartrex

hmmwv said:


> The train is an EMU trainset so there will be multiple power cars with at one driving car at each end of the train, if it's two 8-car trainsets linked together there will be four driving cars. It's the same for almost all EMUs worldwide.


I will have to spy on them to make sure I'm not wrong, thanks for clarifying.



hmmwv said:


> I don't think that window is completely intact, the windows are designed to prevent penetration, not 100% shatterproof, so as long as the bird didn't go through the window met its design specification.


That's exactly what I was thinking, most of the times the layer inside the vehicle(in cars) is intact or hardly cracked.


----------



## hmmwv

gdolniak said:


> *Bullet Train Construction Bidding to Pick-up*
> 
> Original article: [Chinese]
> 
> http://www.eeo.com.cn/ens/2013/0603/244872.shtml


So according to the article MOR ordered around 1300 high speed EMU trainsets since 2004, with 2009 at the highest with bidding for 770 trainsets, 2010 and 2011 were the lowest with 50 and 40 trainsets respectively. Orders picked up in 2012 with 230-240 trainsets. They are predicting that the next bidding will be for around 400 trainsets. Also estimated is the delivery schedule for the next three years (2013-2015) at 315, 225, and 114 trainsets.


----------



## traveler

Nice.


----------



## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> Which month of 2014?
> 
> Does the railway go through central Nanchang, or elsewhere?
> 
> When the railway opens, which shall be the shorter route Nanchang-Beijing: Nanchang-Changsha-Wuhan-Beijing, or Nanchang-Hangzhou-Nanjing-Beijing?


1. The end of 2014.

2. It'll stop at Nanchang South Station.

3. Good question. I don't know but it seems the same distance either way.


----------



## gdolniak

*Japan tests 310mph bullet train*



> *Japan tests 310mph bullet train*
> Japan's "floating" trains of the future, designed to travel at speeds of 311mph, have undergone their first test tracks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new train, designed by Central Japan Railway Co (JR Tokai), will initially link central Tokyo with Nagoya station
> 
> By Danielle Demetriou, Tokyo1:08PM BST 04 Jun 2013
> 
> The new generation L0 Series trains, which employ the latest magnetic levitation technology instead of conventional wheels, will begin commercial services in 2027.
> 
> The first five cars of the new train, which has a distinct aerodynamic "nose" at the front, were displayed on a test track in Yamanashi Prefecture.
> 
> The carriages, which are propelled by magnetic forces, were pulled along the track by a special maintenance vehicle as part of preliminary trials, with wide-scale tests due to commence in September.
> 
> The new train, designed by Central Japan Railway Co (JR Tokai), will initially link central Tokyo with Nagoya station, cutting current bullet train journey times by more than half, from 90 to 40 minutes.
> 
> The final train will consist of 16 carriages carrying up to 1,000 passengers at a time, with plans under way to extend the line to Osaka by 2045. The plan is ultimately to create a high-speed mass transit maglev network across the country.
> 
> It was in 1964 that Japan was propelled to the forefront of transport technology after it unveiled its first bullet train – known as "shinkansen" – to coincide with its hosting of the Olympic ames.
> 
> Since then, Japan has become famous as home to the world's most sophisticated rail network system, with bullet trains travelling at speeds of up to 199mph across more than 1,400 miles of tracks.
> 
> Shinzo Abe, the prime minister, is currently pushing for a surge in sales of Japanese road, railway and power station technology to emerging nations such as India, which is expected to use Japan's bullet train technology for a new Mumbai to Ahmedabad line.
> 
> Today, with close to 60 years passing since the first bullet train was launched, Japan is investing heavily in maglev technology in order to remain at the forefront of rail engineering.
> 
> Competition with China is already strong, with the Shanghai maglev train capable of travelling at a top speed of 268mph – although its average speed is 152.5mph due to the limited length of the track.


I know it is OT, but just look at that! I wonder what would be the reply from China? Another announcement of the extension of Shanghai's Maglev?


----------



## FM 2258

^^

An extension would be awesome. I remember seeing in previous posts there is fear among residents that maglev is harmful to peoples heath.

It makes me wonder why Japanese would go for maglev at 311mph(500km/h) when technology like the CRH500 exist, same speed.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Let´s count the distances Shanghai-Guangzhou

On existing lines:
Hongqiao-Nanjing South - 311 km (via Suzhou and Zhenjiang), 300 km/h; via Suzhou North would be 295 km
Nanjing South-Wuhan - 516 km, 200 km/h
Wuhan-Guangzhou South - 968 km
total, at least 1779 km, of which 1263 km is 300 km/h and 516 km 200 km/h.

From end of 2013:
Shanghai-Hangzhou - 169 km, 300 km/h
Hangzhou-Ningbo East - 150 km (?), 300 km/h
Ningbo East-Xiamen - 821 km, 200 km/h
Xiamen-Longhua - 502 km, 200 km/h
Longhua-Guangzhou South - 102 km, 300 km/h
total looks like 1744 km, of which 1323 km is 200 km/h and 421 km is 300 km/h

From end of 2014:
Shanghai-Hangzhou - 169 km, 300 km/h
Hangzhou-Changsha - 933 km, 300 km/h
Changsha-Guangzhou South - 621 km, 300 km/h
total 1723 km, 300 km/h throughout.

Can anyone check the real terminus of Hangzhou-Ningbo high speed railway in Hangzhou, and what shall be the distances Ningbo-Shanghai and Ningbo-Nanjing on 30th instant?

There are 25 days left to 30th instant. Has anything been disclosed of the Nanjing-Hangzhou-Ningbo high speed railway schedule?


----------



## k.k.jetcar

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> An extension would be awesome. I remember seeing in previous posts there is fear among residents that maglev is harmful to peoples heath.
> 
> It makes me wonder why Japanese would go for maglev at 311mph(500km/h) when technology like the CRH500 exist, same speed.


Basically, conventional high speed rail (steel wheel on steel rail) maxes out at about 220mph- above that speed, aerodynamic drag takes it toll and operating costs become too high to run a viable service. Unless Chinese engineers somehow are able to cheat physics, we will not see 311mph high speed trains anytime in regular revenue service.


----------



## big-dog

^^ so are you saying 500kmph train could never put into commercial service as long as steel wheel/rail are being used?


----------



## gdolniak

chornedsnorkack said:


> [..]
> From end of 2013:
> Shanghai-Hangzhou - 169 km, 300 km/h
> Hangzhou-Ningbo East - 150 km (?), 300 km/h
> Ningbo East-Xiamen - 821 km, 200 km/h
> Xiamen-Longhua - 502 km, 200 km/h
> Longhua-Guangzhou South - 102 km, 300 km/h
> total looks like 1744 km, of which 1323 km is 200 km/h and 421 km is 300 km/h
> 
> [..]


They will open the complete line from Shenzhen North (Lonhua) to Xiamen later this year? Many of the viaducts are not even completed yet in Shenzhen...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> So according to the article MOR ordered around 1300 high speed EMU trainsets since 2004,





hmmwv said:


> Also estimated is the delivery schedule for the next three years (2013-2015) at 315, 225, and 114 trainsets.


How many trainsets were delivered and in service by the end of 2012?

How do the lengths of new opened railways in 2013, 2014 and 2015 compare with lengths of existing railways at the end of 2012?

And shall the new delivered trainsets be sufficient to serve the new opened railways in 2015, and leave enough over to increase frequencies on already opened railways?


----------



## Sopomon

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> An extension would be awesome. I remember seeing in previous posts there is fear among residents that maglev is harmful to peoples heath.
> 
> It makes me wonder why Japanese would go for maglev at 311mph(500km/h) when technology like the CRH500 exist, same speed.


Not to be mean, but have you been reading anything at all in this forum?

It's been discussed to great leangth the extent to which high speeds with conventional technologies are possible due to the limitations of several factors.
Things like wire wear, trackbed stabilizing etc. (Not to mention the horrible, HORRIBLE centrifugal forces the wheels would be going through at those high speeds. It's possible, but just scary to think of))


----------



## foxmulder

k.k.jetcar said:


> Basically, conventional high speed rail (steel wheel on steel rail) maxes out at about 220mph- above that speed, aerodynamic drag takes it toll and operating costs become too high to run a viable service. Unless Chinese engineers somehow are able to cheat physics, we will not see 311mph high speed trains anytime in regular revenue service.



lol. Aerodynamic drag is same for maglev, too. 

Also, technological development will always surprise you. It is not "cheating physics", it is *understanding it* better. 


In the long term (min 30+ years), next step should be "vactubes".. we will see.


----------



## maldini

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> An extension would be awesome. I remember seeing in previous posts there is fear among residents that maglev is harmful to peoples heath.
> 
> It makes me wonder why Japanese would go for maglev at 311mph(500km/h) when technology like the CRH500 exist, same speed.


People just wonder whether the new maglev in Japan will be financially viable.


----------



## Xtartrex

Holy crap that look like a platypus with a very long beak.....










I wonder what will be like to add some canards to help alleviate the weight on high speed trains, will they go airborne if they suddenly hit a gush of wind in the opposite direction?


----------



## hmmwv

gdolniak said:


> I know it is OT, but just look at that! I wonder what would be the reply from China? Another announcement of the extension of Shanghai's Maglev?


Nothing, China and Japan are not engaged in any type of HSR arms race. The current CRH trainset meet China's needs so that's what China will be working on for the foreseeable future. The original proposal was an extension of the Shanghai Maglev to Hangzhou, but it was first stalled due to public opposition, and now made moot by the Shanghai-Hangzhou conventional HSR.

Regarding higher speed conventional trains, the CRH500 was made specifically for the engineers to understand the physics involved at very speed better. A conventional train probably will never operate commercially at 500km/h, but CRH500 will allow engineers to develop technologies that one day may enable them to run trains at speed such as 380 and 400km/h economically.


----------



## luhai

Sopomon said:


> Why use the 700 shinkansen as the image? Surely they must have hundreds of stock images of their own trains by now? Wouldn't that be seen as an embarassment?


Oh you should have seen all the pictures of US, Russian and French aircraft carriers been used for headline news when Liaoning was commissioned as China's first aircraft carriers. The truth is, outside of a few nerds of otakus, all trains, buildings, ships and airplane are essentially the same for the general populous. 700 shinkansen is a bullet train, CRH380 is bullet train; to the average Joe, just knowing the difference between bullet trains and regular trains is an accomplishment.


----------



## ddes

^^ Really? Perhaps it might be harder to discern differences between aircraft carriers for the common man, but I was under the impression that the CRH was a matter of national pride, and therefore known to most Chinese.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

Screw it: they both got a blue stripe.


----------



## FM 2258

When I first rode on a CRH1 back in 2010, at the time I didn't know it was a CRH1. I just know I was getting on a high speed train from Guangzhou East to Shenzhen, only after the trip did I realize what I was on after viewing these forums.


----------



## doc7austin

So last week I took the train G79 from Beijing Xi to Guangzhou Nan Railway Station. The train took just 7 hours and 59 minutes to cover a whopping 2,298 kilometers and leads to an average speed of 287 kph.

Enjoy the videos!

The first section is Beijing Xi - Shijiazhuang (the video includes commentary about the track and trains):




Second section is Shijiazhuang - Zhengzhou Dong:




Third section is Zhengzhou Dong - Wuhan:




Fourth section is Wuhan - Changsha Nan:




Fifth section is Changsha Nan - Guangzhou Nan:


----------



## hmmwv

Restless said:


> Huh?
> 
> I thought the old SH-BJ was only upgraded to 200km/h because it still has to run 100km/h freight trains as well.


The line is mostly 200km/h but the Anting section is 250km/h since 2007.



doc7austin said:


> So last week I took the train G79 from Beijing Xi to Guangzhou Nan Railway Station. The train took just 7 hours and 59 minutes to cover a whopping 2,298 kilometers and leads to an average speed of 287 kph.
> 
> Enjoy the videos!


Thanks for the excellent coverage!


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> The line is mostly 200km/h but the Anting section is 250km/h since 2007.


After the Sixth Speedup Campaign, in April 2007, the parts of the line fit for 200 km/h were as follows:
Zhoulizhuang–Qingxian - 56,4 km
Jiedi–Changzhuang - 102,8 km
Gaojiaying–Fuliji - 48,4 km
Sùzhou–Tangnanji - 41 km
Zhenjiang South–Benniu - 51,4 km
Kunshan–Shanghai - 47,3 km incl. the 250 km/h section

total - 347,3 km out of 1450
the remaining 1102,7 km were 160 km/h or slower.

How much of Beijing-Shanghai railway has been upgraded from 160 km/h or slower to 200 km/h since 2007?


----------



## foxmulder

doc7austin, that's an awesome trip report, tnx for sharing.


----------



## ANR

doc7austin said:


> So last week I took the train G79 from Beijing Xi to Guangzhou Nan Railway Station. The train took just 7 hours and 59 minutes to cover a whopping 2,298 kilometers and leads to an average speed of 287 kph.
> 
> Enjoy the videos!


Thanks for taking the time to post. I just finished watching your first video & it was excellent quality. I especially appreciated the comments added to the video explaining locations, opposing trains etc. Once again thanks.


----------



## flowerandy610

I too want to visit china..And High speed rail structure is fab just because Chinese are very hard working and very gud in technology...Gud work guys


----------



## El_Greco

doc7austin said:


> So last week I took the train G79 from Beijing Xi to Guangzhou Nan Railway Station. The train took just 7 hours and 59 minutes to cover a whopping 2,298 kilometers and leads to an average speed of 287 kph.
> 
> Enjoy the videos!
> 
> The first section is Beijing Xi - Shijiazhuang (the video includes commentary about the track and trains):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Second section is Shijiazhuang - Zhengzhou Dong:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third section is Zhengzhou Dong - Wuhan:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fourth section is Wuhan - Changsha Nan:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fifth section is Changsha Nan - Guangzhou Nan:


Impressive. But what about ticket prices?


----------



## China Hand

El_Greco said:


> Impressive. But what about ticket prices?


Information about ticket prices can be found at 12306.cn, http://chinatrainguide.com/, or http://www.chinatraveldepot.com/ChinaTrains/.


----------



## El_Greco

Thanks. 696 yuan does seem reasonable, cheap even.


----------



## Bannor

great film doc7austin.

I just watched all of it now! One thing though. The separated smaller videos are better than the 1-part film due to the comments. Perhaps you can ad comments to the large one too?


----------



## FM 2258

*doc7austin* those videos are awesome!!!! I find it interesting that the English recorded announcements have an American accent.


----------



## China Hand

doc those videos are incredibly thorough with your description of which trains are leaving and which train-sets are being relocated.

An amazing job!


----------



## China Hand

El_Greco said:


> Thanks. 696 yuan does seem reasonable, cheap even.


It is expensive when compared to the old classic N, K, L, T and Z trains. Those can be so cheap it is nearly free, but the cost is low because you spend so much time on them.

Most trips via CRH are 3 to 8 hours and the previous old classic train would take 12 to 36 hours. 18 hours in most cases. Just such a long time.

When a train CRH ZHGT line opens the airfares on that route drop to 120% of the train ticket price.

Fast trains are doubly good in that aspect as cheap discount air fares are now available all over China.


----------



## Pansori

@doc7austin

What an epic video report. It was a great pleasure to watch. I'm planning to do a rail trip from Lithuania all the way to Shenzhen next year which will include the Trans Siberian and the Beijing-Guangzhou line. I guess I'll watch this video many more times.


----------



## binhai

Awesome video report. CRH has to be one of the biggest and most awesome achievements of humanity ever to date.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> Information about ticket prices can be found at 12306.cn, http://chinatrainguide.com/, or http://www.chinatraveldepot.com/ChinaTrains/.


These give contradictory information.

http://www.chinatraveldepot.com/ChinaTrains/City2City.aspx?DepCityID=1&ArrCityID=838

finds no G trains whatsoever - only 4 T and one K train.

http://chinatrainguide.com/stntostn.php

duly finds the same 4 T and 1 K train - but also 3 G trains.

But these 696 yuan are NOT the price of CRH train! They are the price of the slow trains - in lower soft sleeper. You can travel Beijing-Guangzhou cheaply, for 251 yuan - in hard seat if you are willing to sit from 20:31 (T15) to 1:05:25 (K599) there.

Chinatrainguide reports the CRH train price as 791 yuan - in second class. And 949 in first class. To recall later, the other prices of slow trains are 426/441/456/666.

Now this:
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/china-trains/display.aspx?tp=1&to1=Guangzhou&from1=Beijing

gives the same 5 slow and 3 fast trains, and same schedule.

But prices are different.
The lower prices are the same: 251 yuan for hard seat, 426/441/456 for hard sleeper.
But travelchinaguide gives the prices of soft sleepers as 750/784 - not 666/696, as chinatrainguide

Who is right?

On G trains, likewise. chinatrainguide reports 791/949 for second and first class while travelchinaguide reports 862 for second class, 1380 for first class, and also 2724 for business class.

So what are the real prices?


----------



## El_Greco

China Hand said:


> It is expensive when compared to the old classic N, K, L, T and Z trains. Those can be so cheap it is nearly free, but the cost is low because you spend so much time on them.
> 
> Most trips via CRH are 3 to 8 hours and the previous old classic train would take 12 to 36 hours. 18 hours in most cases. Just such a long time.
> 
> When a train CRH ZHGT line opens the airfares on that route drop to 120% of the train ticket price.
> 
> Fast trains are doubly good in that aspect as cheap discount air fares are now available all over China.


That's an amazing contrast. There's still a lot of countries in Europe where 12-18 hour trips are the norm. Not to mention the prices are pretty high, which, as I see it, is the biggest problem with train travel in Europe. It is often far cheaper to fly than take the train.


----------



## gnatho

*Hangzhou East* 06/13/13





*Ningbo South* 06/13/13













------

crappy quality though :/


----------



## China Hand

El_Greco said:


> That's an amazing contrast. There's still a lot of countries in Europe where 12-18 hour trips are the norm. Not to mention the prices are pretty high, which, as I see it, is the biggest problem with train travel in Europe. It is often far cheaper to fly than take the train.


Here is a good example of a random N train, old style, in China.

Train No. Type Station Station No. Arrives Departs Day Distance(km)
6045 A/C Slow Train Linfen 1 / 11:40 1 0
6045 A/C Slow Train Xiangfen 2 12:02 12:04 1 26
6045 A/C Slow Train Houma 3 12:41 12:51 1 60
6045 A/C Slow Train Xinjiang 4 13:09 13:11 1 76
6045 A/C Slow Train Jishan 5 13:32 13:35 1 96
6045 A/C Slow Train Hejin 6 14:05 14:08 1 122
6045 A/C Slow Train Hancheng 7 15:16 / 1 165

Distance of 165kms in 3h 36m, 3.6 hours.
This is an average speed of 45.83 kms/hour.
That's how fast intercity small buses are.
That's SLOWER than a small 50cc motobike.

That line won't get CRH anytime soon, but a comparable velocity increase would have that trip time reduced to 45 to 60 minutes with a D train at 200 kms/hour.


----------



## Pansori

El_Greco said:


> That's an amazing contrast. There's still a lot of countries in Europe where 12-18 hour trips are the norm. Not to mention the prices are pretty high, which, as I see it, is the biggest problem with train travel in Europe. It is often far cheaper to fly than take the train.


It's hard to compare it to Europe. Firstly, there aren't any HSR lines (or, in fact any lines) in Europe that would have direct services going for such long distances. France or Germany have good national services but if you want to get, say, from Madrid to Berlin... ehm. It's not really that great I suppose. You can't just hop on a 300km/h HSR train and forget the rest.

The distance between Beijing and Guangzhou equals distance between Barcelona and Warsaw. Or Madrid and Berlin.

The reality is that China has leapfrogged Europe (and pretty much everything else) in long distance passenger rail transport. In 1990 it was like 30 years behind. Today it's 30 years ahead.


----------



## El_Greco

Yeah the progress in China is simply amazing.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Besides a great long term vision and perseverance, China also has had a few 'lucky breaks' when it came to implementing HSR. For example, electrification was already at 25kV and the gauge was already 1435 mm. Just some small factors that helped speed things along (no pun intended).


----------



## gdolniak

Pansori said:


> It's hard to compare it to Europe. Firstly, there aren't any HSR lines (or, in fact any lines) in Europe that would have direct services going for such long distances.


True. Probably the only comparable international train service would be Eurostart or DB ICE.



Pansori said:


> The reality is that China has leapfrogged Europe (and pretty much everything else) in long distance passenger rail transport. In 1990 it was like 30 years behind. Today it's 30 years ahead.


Yes, and no. Remember, Europe has different countries with different rail systems, as it comes with different voltage, gauge, signalling, laws, budgets, etc. Think about it. China is one country. One voltage, one gauge, same signalling, same laws, one budget, etc.

Looking at it from this perspective, we could also assume, that Europe is still 30 years AHEAD of China if it comes for international local and long-distance rail services. I think you can agree on this.


----------



## Pansori

gdolniak said:


> Yes, and no. Remember, Europe has different countries with different rail systems, as it comes with different voltage, gauge, signalling, laws, budgets, etc. Think about it. China is one country. One voltage, one gauge, same signalling, same laws, one budget, etc.
> 
> Looking at it from this perspective, we could also assume, that Europe is still 30 years AHEAD of China if it comes for international local and long-distance rail services. I think you can agree on this.


I'm not saying Europe doesn't have all those difficulties but I'm just stating it as a matter of fact. As a passenger that's all I care about. And the EU and common market has been around for a while. What was the reason things didn't improve? Utter lack of political will. Hardly an excuse if you want to stay competitive.


----------



## hmmwv

gnatho said:


> *Ningbo South* 06/13/13
> 
> crappy quality though :/


Not much progress on Ningbo South.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> It is expensive when compared to the old classic N, K, L, T and Z trains. Those can be so cheap it is nearly free, but the cost is low because you spend so much time on them.
> 
> Most trips via CRH are 3 to 8 hours and the previous old classic train would take 12 to 36 hours. 18 hours in most cases. Just such a long time.


Up to over 37, yes
The longest CRH routes:
Shenzhen-Beijing: 1 G at 10:25
1 T at 23:48 and 1 K at 19:24
Shenzhen-Xian: 2 G at 9:42 and 9:33
2 K at 37:24 and 30:12
Guangzhou-Taiyuan: 1 G at 9:48
1 K at 34:36
Beijing-Fuzhou: 1 D at 15:10
1 Z at 19:42 and 1 K at 34:35
Shanghai-Longyan: 1 D at 10:17
1 K at 20:24
BUT these are routes where even CRH takes over 8 hours.

If you specify only routes where at least some CRH trains travel under 8 hours, the picture is a bit different.
Guangzhou-Beijing: 1 G at 7:59, the other 2 at 9:40 and 9:51
4 T at 20:39 to 21:50, 1 K at 29:10
Guangzhou-Xian: 1 G at 7:40, the other 5 from 8:51 to 9:09
2 T at 21:35 and 23:07, 5 K from 25:52 to 30:05
Beijing-Harbin: 3 D from 7:52 to 7:59, the fourth at 8:12
2 Z at 9:49 and 10:01, 3 T from 10:27 to 12:29, 4 K from 14:50 to 18:22, and one number train at 17:21.


----------



## Sunfuns

Pansori said:


> The reality is that China has leapfrogged Europe (and pretty much everything else) in long distance passenger rail transport. In 1990 it was like 30 years behind. *Today it's 30 years ahead*.


Not sure Europe is moving in the same direction at all nor does it necessarily need to. I have an impression that our aviation market is far more developed than the one in China. No good reason to take a train from Madrid to Berlin and spend an entire day doing it it even if HS all the way instead of taking a cheap flight lasting just 2-3 hours. Chinese system is great for China, but I question the need for exactly the same here.


----------



## gdolniak

Pansori said:


> I'm not saying Europe doesn't have all those difficulties but I'm just stating it as a matter of fact. As a passenger that's all I care about. And the EU and common market has been around for a while. What was the reason things didn't improve? Utter lack of political will. Hardly an excuse if you want to stay competitive.


Don't forget the main issue here - money! Compare the average budget of an average European country with Chinese government budget. Especially pay attention on the proportion of the budget that goes into education (yes, China spend very little on education) and on social services. I'm sure that if EU could lower these spending to Chinese levels, it can build all the railway they want. But, well... You are right. Utter lack of political will.


----------



## Attus

Don't forget that Madrid and Berlin, although being both in TOP10 cities in Europe have even together significantly less inhabitants than Sheznzhen, Guangzhou, Wuhan, etc. Passenger traffic between those European cities is significantly less than in China. Less than a dozen flight services daily are usually far enough. 
Where it is not enough (e.g. Madrid-Barcelona, Milan-Rome) there are HSLs available.


----------



## Sunfuns

Attus said:


> Don't forget that Madrid and Berlin, although being both in TOP10 cities in Europe have even together significantly less inhabitants than Sheznzhen, Guangzhou, Wuhan, etc. Passenger traffic between those European cities is significantly less than in China. Less than a dozen flight services daily are usually far enough.
> Where it is not enough (e.g. Madrid-Barcelona, Milan-Rome) there are HSLs available.


Even if they had more inhabitants than the Chinese cities you mentioned they would still be in different countries which don't even border each other and international traffic is inherently less dense. It would be more proper to compare with Beijing-Seoul or Gungzhou-Hanoi.


----------



## binhai

Well I sure wish that would be the case. But China doesn't border any developed Asian countries with a high population density necessitating HSR.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

BarbaricManchurian said:


> But China doesn't border any developed Asian countries with a high population density necessitating HSR.


Korea and Vietnam both have high population density.

How is the progress of Shenyang-Dandong high-speed railway? And are there any plans for Dandong-Pyongyang?


----------



## Sunfuns

Guangzhou-Hanoi would make some sense on paper, but in reality perhaps the traffic flow doesn't justify it yet. 

By the way is the HS line from Guangzhou to Nanning already in operation? It would constitute more than a half of line to Hanoi.


----------



## urbanfan89

chornedsnorkack said:


> How is the progress of Shenyang-Dandong high-speed railway? And are there any plans for Dandong-Pyongyang?


Shenyang to Dandong is scheduled to open in 2015. It's claimed that the HSR lines to Dandong, Hunchun, and Mudanjiang are designed in part to allow the rapid movement of troops into North Korea.

North Korea has been seeking Chinese private investments for BOT infrastructure projects, which includes HSR. But who in their right mind invests in North Korea?


----------



## Restless

urbanfan89 said:


> Shenyang to Dandong is scheduled to open in 2015. It's claimed that the HSR lines to Dandong, Hunchun, and Mudanjiang are designed in part to allow the rapid movement of troops into North Korea.
> 
> North Korea has been seeking Chinese private investments for BOT infrastructure projects, which includes HSR. But who in their right mind invests in North Korea?


I'd ignore the claims about using HSR for moving troops into North Korea.

The troops are going to end up in trucks or armoured vehicles when they reach the border anyway. So it's just easier and faster to drive to North Korea from Shenyang or Harbin.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Restless said:


> The troops are going to end up in trucks or armoured vehicles when they reach the border anyway. So it's just easier and faster to drive to North Korea from Shenyang or Harbin.


Well, with HSR you could transfer about a thousand troops per train over night from anywhere in China to the North-Korean border.

Have a couple hundred trains do this and in one night you'll have an entire army at that border... can't do that with trucks.


----------



## foxmulder

I have huge doubts that HK has anything natural left that's worth mentioning under "environmental" issues. 

Environmental opposition against high speed rail is like being against fluorescent lamps anyway.

It all comes to politics.


----------



## Sopomon

Given that 60% or so of Hong Kong's land is green space or national parkland, you may want to revise your statement.


----------



## gdolniak

*The Yangtze Delta Iron Triangle*

*The Yangtze Delta Iron Triangle*
2013-06-18 13:01










By Ye Jingyu (叶静宇)
Issue 623, June 10, 2013
Nation, page 9
Translated by Zhu Na
Original article: [Chinese]

On the west shore of Taihu Lake in Yixing (宜兴), Jiangsu, Cheng Chao (程超) sits clasping a purple clay tea pot as he looks on at the misty Hengshan (横山) Reservoir with anticipation. 

Within just the past few years, resorts and convention centers have sprouted up around the reservoir playing on the area’s well-known Dajue Temple. It’s all part of a drive to build the Yunhu (云湖) scenic area in preparation for the new Nanjing-Hangzhou high-speed railway.

Cheng Chao owns a tea house in Hangzhou and now he’s planning on opening a branch in Yunhu in order to get closer to Yixing’s tea plantations and resources. But more importantly, he believes that after the Nanjing-Hangzhou high-speed railway opens at the end of June, Yixing, which lies right between the two cities, will become a very popular tourist destination.

In preparation for the railway, the city of Yixing has also invested 250 million yuan in the Shanjuandong (善卷洞) and Yangxian (阳羡) eco-tourism scenic areas. Local leaders believe that it will be the perfect getaway for Shanghai, Nanjing and Hangzhou residents who were previously unable to conveniently travel to the city.

Yixing isn’t the only city expecting big changes from the new railway. It will complete what’s been deemed the “Iron Triangle” of high-speed transport in the Yangtze River Delta. Shanghai, Hangzhou and Nanjing will be connected, and soon after will be joined by Ningbo. 

Liu Zhibiao (刘志彪), head of the Jiangsu Provincial Academy of Social Science, says that opening the Nanjing-Hangzhou line will strengthen Nanjing and Hangzhou’s economic activity in the short term and further improve Shanghai’s status as the center of the Yangtze River Delta region in the long-term.

The “Weak Side” of the Triangle

As far back as the early 1990s, Yixing had planned to raise funds for a passenger railway line. However, this railway eventually became a freight line instead. And although Yixing had a developed road network, it didn’t provide the convenience needed to transport large numbers of people. This has presented an obstacle for the city’s development.

In fact, the whole area between Nanjing and Hangzhou has remained relatively underdeveloped because of transportation issues, making it the “weak side” of the Iron Triangle. This area includes the cities of Yixing, Huzhou (湖州), Liyang (溧阳) and Jurong (句容), as well as the five counties of Lishui (溧水), Gaochun (高淳), Changxing (长兴), Anji (安吉) and Deqing (德清). There are also 283 smaller towns in the area.

In 2004, the area between Nanjing and Hangzhou accounted for 34 and 23 percent of the population and land area in the Yangtze River Delta respectively. However, its GDP and fiscal revenue accounted for just 20 and 14 percent respectively, demonstrating that its economic performance has been lower than average for the region. 

Shi Jinchuan (史晋川), director of the social sciences department of Zhejiang University, says that the Yangtze River Delta region has always had the structure of a “V-shape,” confining most economic interaction between the two cities and Shanghai, but not with one another. Now that the railway will turn the V-shape into a triangle, Nanjing and Hangzhou will become closer economically and drive new industries. Zhang Zhaoan (张兆安), vice chairman of the Shanghai Committee of China National Democratic Construction Association, says that human resources, technology, logistics and information industries all stand to benefit.

On Yixing’s online forums, residents have been talking about what businesses might gain after the railway opens. One resident surnamed Zhang is banking on business picking up for his car rental company after the line brings an influx of travelers.

The tourism industry may indeed become the first beneficiary of the new line. When it opens, it will only take half an hour to get from Yixing to Nanjing or Hangzhou. Some local tourism companies have already formed agreements with agencies in the two cities. Outside of Yixing, there are also tourism hotspots like the Grand Canal, Tianmu Lake and West Lake that are expecting a new surge in visitors. 

Shanghai’s Status

The new Nanjing-Hangzhou line will undoubtedly divert passengers who previously had to transit through Shanghai. But Zhang Zhaoan believes that in the long-term, this is also an opportunity for Shanghai’s development as the region’s flagship city.

In the future, high-speed railway services will be increased between Shanghai and other cities, making everyone more interconnected. Currently, there’s about one train leaving for Shanghai from Hangzhou every 50 minutes during peak periods. That frequency will be increased in the future, making the Iron Triangle’s other nickname - “the one hour economic circle” – a reality.

Zhou Hongyun (周红云), deputy director and engineer at the Shanghai Railway Bureau, reported that the construction of the high-speed railway network in the Yangtze River Delta region will speed up and reach 3,200 kilometers of track by 2015.

_http://www.eeo.com.cn/ens/2013/0618/245432.shtml_


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Nice article. I like how the high speed railways will make more places "local" than long distance.


----------



## FM 2258

China Hand said:


> Tunneling is the most expensive thing to do, irregular soil, layers of unknown substance appear out of nowhere, and HK has rules and regulations to follow that the mainland does not.
> 
> I have stayed in SZ and traveled back-forth to HK Island and it's time consuming and not convenient. Even with a fast rail link it is a long long walk through the various border controls.
> 
> Also HK is not eager to become part of Guangdong for so many reasons.


Why doesn't Hong Kong want to become part of Guangdong? I think I have some ideas but not really sure. I've taken the train from Kowloon to the border with Shenzhen and it seemed to take forever...12-14 minutes will be amazing.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

gdolniak said:


> By Ye Jingyu (叶静宇)
> Issue 623, June 10, 2013
> Nation, page 9
> Translated by Zhu Na
> Original article: [Chinese]
> Shanghai, Hangzhou and Nanjing will be connected, and soon after will be joined by Ningbo.


Does it mean that Hangzhou-Ningbo high speed railway has become delayed?


gdolniak said:


> Zhou Hongyun (周红云), deputy director and engineer at the Shanghai Railway Bureau, reported that the construction of the high-speed railway network in the Yangtze River Delta region will speed up and reach 3,200 kilometers of track by 2015.
> 
> _http://www.eeo.com.cn/ens/2013/0618/245432.shtml_


What is the list of high speed railways in Yangtze River Delta that are under construction and shall open after June 2013, yet before January 2015?


----------



## Silver Swordsman

FM 2258 said:


> Why doesn't Hong Kong want to become part of Guangdong? I think I have some ideas but not really sure. I've taken the train from Kowloon to the border with Shenzhen and it seemed to take forever...12-14 minutes will be amazing.


Hong Kong isn't exactly on the best of terms with the PRC both in terms of politics and people.


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

silent_dragon said:


> Cannot wait for this link to open. Why is it takes too long to open a less than 30km tunnel in HK?
> 
> Subway trips via Louhu from Kowloon is just pain. I am almost ready to rent or buy an apartment in SZ near the SZ North station and goes to work to HK via high speed train. HK apartment prices just sucks. When the high speed rail will be open, probably 25% of the HK people will relocate to Shenzhen.
> 
> Please God let them dig faster..


Where is is the visa controls going to be? At the station on the mainland side or after arrival in Hong Kong or onboard the train?


----------



## silent_dragon

On HK side at U/C West Kowloon terminal


----------



## foxmulder

Sopomon said:


> Given that 60% or so of Hong Kong's land is green space or national parkland, you may want to revise your statement.


The green space left is mostly there because it is hard to build on steep hills. The places suitable for urbanization is 100% filled in HK. Otherwise, they wouldn't build an airport in the middle of an ocean or build those walls of buildings or fill the sea. they didn't build those skyscrapers or the "airport in the sea" to save the environment.  Do you honestly think high speed rail can hurt the environment, especially if it is elevated like Chinese are constructing.. :|


----------



## FM 2258

^^

That's good and makes sense. Passengers can go all the way to Beijing without having to get off the train. How far will MTR trains go into mainland China?


----------



## silent_dragon

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> That's good and makes sense. Passengers can go all the way to Beijing without having to get off the train. How far will MTR trains go into mainland China?


There is a separate slow train from Hong Kong(Kowloon) all the way to Beijing, Shanghai etc.. If you mean the HK MTR subway trains, they just travel up to the border only + 20 minutes walk + 10 minutes queue at the border control.

TheWest Kowloon terminal will be probably one of the most beautiful land marks in Hong Kong and prettiest terminal in all of China ones completed. Hk people though complained with the price tag.


http://www.aedas.com/Express-Rail-Link-West-Kowloon-Terminus-Hong-Kong


----------



## silent_dragon

Some rendeer of West Kowloon Terminal

Park + high speed terminal hybrid









Interior


----------



## skyridgeline

Possible budget and contruction delay problems for the Express Rail Link project.


----------



## gdolniak

*China's high-speed rail expands ticket discount*



> *China's high-speed rail expands ticket discount*
> English.news.cn 2013-06-22 23:33:37
> 
> BEIJING, June 22 (Xinhua) -- China's high-speed rail will start a summer discount for business cabins, state cabins and first-class seats on certain railway lines, the country's national railway operator announced Friday.
> 
> It is the first time for the high-speed rail discount to cover first-class tickets, but second-class ones, the hard-to-get tickets for some popular lines, are still excluded from this round of special offer.
> 
> According to China Railway Corporation, the discount, starting July 10 through August 31 and with variable rates of up to 20 percent, is implemented to "adapt to market demand."
> 
> The discounted tickets will be available for certain sections of the Beijing-Guangzhou and Beijing-Shanghai high-speed rails, some of which are discounted for the first time.
> 
> A faster way of travel, China's high-speed train services often receive complaints about its stubbornly high prices and transport capability unmatched with market demand.
> 
> Tickets around busy travel season, specially those of the economy class, often sold out soon after available, whereas some costly trains suffered low attendance.
> 
> "It is a good start, but I hope high-speed rails can be like the subway, running more in busy season and fewer in off season and not wasting on resources while claiming a deficit," said netizen "phils" on Sina Weibo, China's twitter-like microblogging service.
> 
> While some netizens complained that it provides little benefits to the price sensitive group targeting only second-class tickets, Wang Ming, deputy head of the Institute of Comprehensive Transportation of National Development and Reform Commission, said the discount is designed to adjust between demands of different market segments.
> 
> "Some passenger flows are stable. Some can be attracted by lower prices. The railway department has enough data to back up its decision and expects the price to balance the demand." Wang said in an interview with a local newspaper.
> 
> According to Guangzhou Railway Group, the national network's local operator in the southern transportation hub Guangzhou, this round of discount can provide a price reduction as much as 500 yuan (81 U.S. dollars) for business class.
> 
> Under the discount, prices for some short-distance first-class tickets will be marked down to almost the same as the second-class, the railway operator added.
> 
> _http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2013-06/22/c_124896357.htm_


To anyone of you, who want to travel in style this summer...


----------



## _Night City Dream_

D trains stand for what?


----------



## gnatho

_Night City Dream_ said:


> D trains stand for what?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_rail_transport_in_China#Classes


----------



## Bannor

chornedsnorkack said:


> What is the list of high speed railways in Yangtze River Delta that are under construction and shall open after June 2013, yet before January 2015?


I think I recall having read about plans for a line between Suzhou and Jiaxing too. And perhaps one crossing the the river east of hangzhou. Though I'm not sure how far out it will cross.


----------



## China Hand

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> Where is is the visa controls going to be? At the station on the mainland side or after arrival in Hong Kong or onboard the train?


Speculating that it will be before boarding. You go through customs/visa/passport/immigration control, then you are able to buy a ticket, then board.


----------



## Silly_Walks

China Hand said:


> Speculating that it will be before boarding. You go through customs/visa/passport/immigration control, then you are able to buy a ticket, then board.


I think you won't go through customs/immigration BEFORE being able to buy you ticket, because that would mean you would have to go through all that, only to be told your train tickets have been sold out.

You can probably buy a ticket months/days ahead of time, as with all train journeys, and on the day of your travels go through customs 60-30 minutes before train departure.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

There are 4 days left till 30th of June.

Have any more details been disclosed of the Hangzhou-Nanjing train schedules this Sunday?


----------



## doc7austin

Bookings for high-speed trains, using the Nanjing-Hangzhou and Hangzhou-Ningbo HSR are still blocked from July 1st - that would include all trains Shanghai-Xiamen.


----------



## gnatho

doc7austin said:


> Bookings for high-speed trains, using the Nanjing-Hangzhou and Hangzhou-Ningbo HSR are still blocked from July 1st - that would include all trains Shanghai-Xiamen.


Not anymore. http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/kyfw/ypcx/


----------



## xinxingren

or more simply http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/zxdt/201306/t20130627_719.html


----------



## chornedsnorkack

So what is the best train time Beijing-Hangzhou this Sunday?


----------



## gnatho

chornedsnorkack said:


> So what is the best train time Beijing-Hangzhou this Sunday?


Sunday (30th)

G31 - 6:20 h

Monday (1st)

G31 - 5:02 h


----------



## big-dog

*7.1 Nanjing-Hangzhou-Ningbo HSR opens*


A train run out of Hangzhou East.

by news.cn


----------



## China Hand

Anyone know when AliPay will be able to accept payments on 12306.cn? They were awarded the contract last month.


----------



## Traceparts

Nanjing south from ourail.com


----------



## foxmulder

Awesome updates Traceparts, thanks for sharing. Does anyone know what is the "extra" elevated line for? Which railroad?


----------



## hmmwv

^^Could be for the suburban intercity lines originated from Nanjing South.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

Dem Chinese b*stards have stolen my jaw. 

Give it back.


----------



## Woonsocket54

*Some intermediate stations on Hangzhou-Ningbo HSR*

*Shaoxing North Station*








http://www.shaoxing.com.cn/news/content/2013-07/01/content_1130293.htm

*Yuyao North Station*




























knock-off CVS pharmacy?























































Source: http://bbs.zxip.com/read.php?tid=1654434


----------



## Woonsocket54

*Nanjing South Station*









http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2013-07/01/c_124937859.htm









http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2013-07/01/c_124937859_2.htm









http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2013-07/01/179181811189414349941n.jpg
First class on Hangzhou-Nanjing HSR









http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2013-07/01/c_124937859_4.htm









http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2013-07/01/c_124937859_5.htm









http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2013-07/01/c_124937859_6.htm


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Is chinatrainguide.com reliable and up to date?

For example see the schedule Beijing-Fuzhou:
http://www.chinatrainguide.com/stntostn.php

it now shows both D365 and G55.

Is it correct that D365 is still running alongside G55?


----------



## FM 2258

It's good to see that the Nanjing-Hangzhou-Ningbo HSR is now opened. 

Which railway station in Hangzhou will serve this line? In Nanjing is only Nanjing South going to be served by this line?


----------



## Woonsocket54

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is chinatrainguide.com reliable and up to date?
> 
> For example see the schedule Beijing-Fuzhou:
> http://www.chinatrainguide.com/stntostn.php
> 
> it now shows both D365 and G55.
> 
> Is it correct that D365 is still running alongside G55?





big-dog said:


> *Beijing-Fuzhou “G” HSR will open on July 1*
> 
> The current Beijing-Fuzhou D366 (15.5 hours) will change to G56, *bypassing Shanghai*. Max speed will upgrade from 200kmph to 300kmph and travel time will be reduced to 10 hours.


If D366 was replaced with G56, then would it be reasonable to assume that D365 was replaced with G55?


----------



## xinxingren

G55 stops at 19 stations, D365 stops at 24, and there are non overlaps ...
e.g. to get to Shaoxing Bei you take G55
to get to Shanghai Hongqiao you take D365


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> It's good to see that the Nanjing-Hangzhou-Ningbo HSR is now opened.
> 
> Which railway station in Hangzhou will serve this line? In Nanjing is only Nanjing South going to be served by this line?


Hangzhou East will serve this line, and yes Nanjing South is the only one in Nanjing.


----------



## big-dog

Wuhan-Guangzhou HSR










by 中国铁路


----------



## big-dog

Nice picture. I never know Dazhou is connected by HSR.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> Nice picture. I never know Dazhou is connected by HSR.


HSR goes from Dazhou via Suining to Chengdu.

When is Suining-Chongqing branch due to open?


----------



## hkskyline

big-dog said:


> Nice picture. I never know Dazhou is connected by HSR.


From CTrip, I see D trains to Chengdu.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

hkskyline said:


> A new round of heavy rainfall battered Dazhou on Friday morning, making several trains suspended and late. (Xinhua/Deng Liangkui)



Why. 

:bash:


----------



## FM 2258

I didn't know rain could cause train delays. Why is that?


----------



## foxmulder

Couple trains are late due to quite terrible rain storms and you guys are rebelling ?  Sh*t happens on a continent size land mass guys, take it easy  Next time they will be more ready for it, hopefully. 

And, there is always a solution lol


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Interesting picture, hope most people are ok. I was wondering if heavy downpours cause electric trains to lose contact with the overhead wires or if it was due to flooding over the tracks...or something else. :cheers:


----------



## hkskyline

This is a severe weather event that caused landslides. You can't safely run high-speed trains if rains have washed out the tracks.

News item for a nearby county :
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/video/2013-07/06/c_132517525.htm


----------



## China Hand

Silver Swordsman said:


> Why.
> 
> :bash:


Probably the same reason you cannot drive as fast in the rain...


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> HSR goes from Dazhou via Suining to Chengdu.


I think this was supposed to be the first part of a Chengdu-Suining-Dazhou-Xi'an route that has now been canceled.


----------



## laojang

chornedsnorkack said:


> They´ve been slowed down! G20 used to be 4:55, now it is 5:09. G12 and G22 were also 4:55, but they are 5:16 now!


Hi:
That is because they added 2 or 3 extra stops such as Wuxi and Taian. 
These 2 used to stop only at Nanjing and Jinan. One stop adds 7 minutes.

Laojang


----------



## Northwood-3179

http://www.youtube.com/user/periskopspb/videos
Here are some videos from G1 HS-train by russian traveller.

And there is his blog with photos(on russian).
http://periskop.livejournal.com/1043888.html


----------



## hmmwv

xinxingren said:


> I observe that the G number doesn't allow it to go over D train speeds on the coastal route,
> the first 800km from Fuzhou to Huzhou are held back to average 152km/hr including stops.
> It cranks up to 236km/hr including stops for the 1023km Nanjing to Beijing.


Yes because Coastal HSR is built as a 250km/h line while Nanjing-Beijing was 380km/h.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

I'm sure this has been asked before (probably by me), is the coastal route at a slower speed because of the terrain?


----------



## xinxingren

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> I'm sure this has been asked before (probably by me), is the coastal route at a slower speed because of the terrain?


Compared to the North China plain, or the land between the rivers, this coastal route is definitely more mountainous, with wide tidal bays and almost fiord-like rivers. Sure the line could have been made faster, but at a cost. There's not a great deal here outside the river ports of Wenzhou and Fuzhou, so most people now have a train where there was nothing before. 200km/hr max sure beats a dirt road bus.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Thanks for the explanation. I agree that 200km/h is still some serious speed. I've taken some long distance buses in China (example Sanya to Haikou) and they do run pretty slow, at least the one I took was slow.


On a different topic, what is the significance of the city Baoji? From what I've read it seems that the high speed railway between Xi'an and Baoji is significant enough to have it's own construction segment.


----------



## xinxingren

Baoji is located on the ancient North Silk Road, controlling the strategic Qinling Pass southwards to the Han River basin. So it was a logical place during the great railway expansion of the 1950s to place a junction on the main west line with a line south to Sichuan. The country towards Xi'an to the east is open and easy construction, but westwards starts to rise into hills, so it's just a convenient place to stage HSR line construction.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

xinxingren said:


> There's not a great deal here outside the river ports of Wenzhou and Fuzhou,


There are a number of stations. Between Wenzhou and Fuzhou there are 
Ruian
Pingyang
Cangnan
Fuding
Taimushan
Xiapu
Fuan
Ningde
Luoyuan
Lianjiang
Mawei


xinxingren said:


> so most people now have a train where there was nothing before. 200km/hr max sure beats a dirt road bus.


Yes, but how efficiently does it compete with a bus on a paved highway?


----------



## Silver Swordsman

chornedsnorkack said:


> Yes, but how efficiently does it compete with a bus on a paved highway?


Irrelevant when the said paved highway is flooded. 

HSR should have good drainage, that's why I'm asking.


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> xinxingren said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's not a great deal here outside the river ports of Wenzhou and Fuzhou
> 
> 
> 
> There are a number of stations. Between Wenzhou and Fuzhou there are
> Ruian, Pingyang, Cangnan, Fuding, Taimushan, Xiapu, Fuan, Ningde, Luoyuan, Lianjiang, Mawei
Click to expand...

"Not a great deal" was supposed to mean no major centers of commerce or industry. Most of those stations are at mere villages by comparison with the HSR stations out in the China heartland. Also at only 30km apart most trains do not stop at the smaller ones. Because this line is virgin railway territory it is designated as a Mixed Freight and Passenger HSR. Will the major new ports being built at Luoyuan Bay and Fuqing serve local industry, or just be terminii for inland commerce?



chornedsnorkack said:


> Yes, but how efficiently does it compete with a bus on a paved highway?


 Funny you should ask that, because in a fit of evenhandedness the Chinese have built a flash new expressway down this coast parallel to and at the same time as the HSR. Maybe the old roads were better than dirt, but still secondary, winding and hilly. Now modern China gives the people a choice of fast bus or fast train.


----------



## hkskyline

CRH2A highspeed train was leaving Wuchang station by Qin, Zong, on Flickr


----------



## chornedsnorkack

xinxingren said:


> "Not a great deal" was supposed to mean no major centers of commerce or industry. Most of those stations are at mere villages by comparison with the HSR stations out in the China heartland.


Even if a station is at a village rather than at a neighbourhood, villages exist not only in townships, but also in towns and subdistricts. Fuding and Fuan are both cities, while being parts of Ningde city.
There is a great deal of people. Ningde has 2,82 million people.
Does Ningde have any major centres of people? Or are these 2,82 million people scattered evenly in villages, so that very few of them can reach a station?


xinxingren said:


> Also at only 30km apart most trains do not stop at the smaller ones. Because this line is virgin railway territory it is designated as a Mixed Freight and Passenger HSR.


30 km apart is a lot. For a village in between stations, 15 km walk in either direction.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> 30 km apart is a lot. For a village in between stations, 15 km walk in either direction.


And people have plenty of means of transportation to get to either stations.


----------



## hkskyline

哈尔滨西站及京哈既有线全景接片 Harbin west station and Beijing-harbin railway by 哈局巡道工, on Flickr


----------



## xinxingren

*HSR Cancellations by Typhoon*

Typhoon "Suli" has caused cancellations of D & G trains between Wenzhou and Xiamen. Without a thorough check the list looks like total closure to passenger traffic.
http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/zxdt/201307/t20130712_744.html


----------



## Traceparts

from ourail.com

4 high speed trains in a single picture


----------



## big-dog

^^ wow that's not a common scene. Where is it?


----------



## foxmulder

Traceparts said:


> from ourail.com
> 
> 4 high speed trains in a single picture


Nice... :eek2:


----------



## big-dog

Hard to believe it's Fuzhou from the satellite picture, where no HSR exists not long ago.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Traceparts said:


> from ourail.com
> 
> 4 high speed trains in a single picture


I have reported your post to the admins for containing porn :lol:


----------



## Traceparts

Silly_Walks said:


> I have reported your post to the admins for containing porn :lol:


it's ok:banana:


----------



## xinxingren

Traceparts said:


> from ourail.com
> 
> 4 high speed trains in a single picture


I'm a wet rag. I hate these studio mockup photos. They could have shown us one more train on the center double track. I'll let them off the sixth line of the junction 'cos that's invisible in a tunnel under the photographer's feet. There's nothing in the current timetable has two northbounds departing Fuzhou South at the same time. And certainly nothing that has two inbounds at the same time occupying the single track into Fuzhou Central. :cripes:


----------



## big-dog

big-dog said:


> My train is G128 and G3, their travel time are quite different.
> 
> G128 Shanghai-Beijing: 5:23
> G3 Beijing-Shanghai: 4:48
> 
> I guess it depends on which stations they stop and the train schedule.


It turned out that G128 stopped at 7 stations and G3 stopped at one (Nanjing South) on the trip.

*G128 Shanghai Hongqiao to Beijing South*







Arrived Beijing


*G3 Beijing South to Shanghai Hongqiao*

Subway at Beijing South


HSR map at Beijing South




Arrived Shanghai


----------



## chornedsnorkack

A problem with shops in the exit waiting halls of HSR stations accessible with departing tickets alone is that unless the purchases are eaten at the station, they need to be carried as luggage on the HSR.

Are the shops in the generally accessible parts of HSR stations convenient in their choice of goods and pricing, compared to the shops elsewhere around the city?

And are the metro lines 2, 10 and 4 comfortable with luggage?


----------



## hkskyline

Shanghai's subway trains are not equipped with luggage racks. Line 2 is especially crowded since it is a major artery running W-E, passing through Nanjing East Road and the financial district in Pudong.


----------



## hmmwv

xinxingren said:


> They could have shown us one more train on the center double track.:


You mean the expressway there?


----------



## xinxingren

hmmwv said:


> You mean the expressway there?


Thanks for that :banana: 
I was thinking of the video publicity for HSR that shows swooping shots of opposing trains passing on double tracks. Some of those shots must have been posed or contrived, or else somebody spent an awful long time perched on a cherrypicker camera trigger finger itching ...


----------



## China Hand

Traveler's tip:
Shanghai is always very crowded near the entrance, far side of this photo. 

For more room and shorter food lines, go to the far side of the station up on the mezzanine.



big-dog said:


> It turned out that G128 stopped at 7 stations and G3 stopped at one (Nanjing South) on the trip.
> 
> *G128 Shanghai Hongqiao to Beijing South*


----------



## hkskyline

800px-Beijing_South_Station by anshanjohn, on Flickr


----------



## luhai

China Hand said:


> Traveler's tip:
> Shanghai is always very crowded near the entrance, far side of this photo.
> 
> For more room and shorter food lines, go to the far side of the station up on the mezzanine.


proof that people are lazy and don't want to walk far. Perhaps a reason to have entrances on both sizes to distribute the load.


----------



## Peloso

chornedsnorkack said:


> How much of these 100 milliard go to building new high speed railways, and how much go to building new high speed trains?
> 
> Do the existing high speed railways have any space left for more high speed trains, and are there any plans to increase frequencies on existing high speed rail lines?


Er... you should be asking this the Chinese MOR, not me :lol:
I was just countering a funny claim by Sopomon.


----------



## foxmulder

gdolniak said:


> Welcome to the club, Pansori ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> Not that stupid, Pansori. Read this recent article, from no-one else but the almighty China Daily quoting Xinhua:
> 
> 
> 
> :cheers:


This is about management though not related to investment.

This happens all the time with China HSR discussion. With each reply subject distort to smt else from the original point 

Also, I am pretty sure if prices become like airline tickets it will create fluctuations which will result in higher prices and during holiday season it will affect the poor the most.


----------



## hmmwv

xinxingren said:


> 听说 gossip from other forums that the total number of seats available is divided into pools between outside agents, self-service machines, and the station ticket seller windows. At some short time (30 minutes?) before departure, any remaining tickets suddenly appear on the station clerks' machines. Might be urban legend ...


Not the case between Shanghai and Nanjing, if I arrive at the ticket kiosk half an hour earlier almost all tickets for the next couple of hours are gone.


----------



## Sopomon

foxmulder said:


> This is about management though not related to investment.
> 
> This happens all the time with China HSR discussion. With each reply subject distort to smt else from the original point
> 
> Also, I am pretty sure if prices become like airline tickets it will create fluctuations which will result in higher prices and during holiday season it will affect the poor the most.



Not sure if you've flown very often, but there's a simple workaround to that: buying your tickets in advance.

Flying between London and Australia, you know that it's going to be busy in December, so you book your tickets in March to get the best prices.

This can easily be applied to the ticket vending system for CHSR.

Although, there are many other issues that need to be fixed, such as the requirement of government ID (not too bad for Chinese citizens, terrible for foreigners, adds much unnecessary complexity to proceedings). The ticket allocation methods which seem to leave 6/8 carriages on the train packed and the others entirely empty are problematic too, not least that the government allocates set amounts to travel agencies etc. which reduces flexibility, meaning that demand can't be adequately met.

In time the ticketing issues can easily be sorted out.

In terms of investment, it's less a case of over-investment as it is poorly managed projects and the build timeframes being far too short. Corners have been cut and some of the viaducts may need some serious repairs in a shorter time than expected. This will add a large cost later on in the period, especially with the size and scale of the network.


----------



## gdolniak

foxmulder said:


> This is about management though not related to investment.[...]


The management needs to get some extra kuai to pay off the debt, right? So, if they could not do it, any future railway investment will be affected by that, because who will want to lent money for project that transports air 300km/h?

The article I quoted, is the response to The Economist article. In the China Daily article, Chinese government in the mean of Railway authorities, have concluded that: (1) the price tickets are too high for ordinary people, (2) on some lines the trains run empty, while on some there simply isn't enough for them, and (3) "liberalize" (in some way) prices for the 1st class and above. So The Economist was in some way right in their article. It wasn't negative about CHR.

In a way, this is very interesting. China has now redesigned Railways (get rid off the Ministry of Railways) and by the means of a massive debt over their head (railway construction, etc.) they are forced now to reform themselves. Small steps with the tickets, but let's wait and see how it will turn out on the global scale.


----------



## gdolniak

Some serious commitment from the Chinese government toward the railways:



> *China Unveils "Mini Stimulus" Targeting Small Companies*
> 07-25 14:41 Caijing
> 
> China's State Council on late Wednesday unveiled a tax break plan for small companies in the country, as part of a broader plan to inject momentum into the world's second-largest economy.
> 
> The State Council, the cabinet, said it will scrap all value-added and operating taxes on businesses with monthly sales of less than CNY20, 000 ($3,250). It said the tax cut, which takes effect on August 1, would benefit over 6 million small companies, which employ tens of millions of people.
> 
> The announcement did not give a time span that the new measure will last, but analysts are expecting it to become a norm.
> Some 12 billion yuan of revenue will be exempted for the companies in the rest months this year, according to a calculation by the Ministry of Finance.
> 
> "The policy shift will benefit the small and micro-sized companies directly, encouraging business start-ups, and reviving confidence on the development of such companies," the Ministry of Finance said in a statement published on its website, "It can also make the companies function better in stabilizing growth and creating jobs."
> 
> Yang Zhiyong, a researcher with the Chinese Academy of Sciences, applauded the move for its role in supporting a "comprehensive" development in the economy, and expected that it could be a long-standing policy.
> 
> A "healthy" development of China's economy and society should "never rely solely on big companies," he added, referring to mostly the state-owned enterprise.
> 
> Although more than 90 percent of companies in China are SMEs (small and medium-sized enterprises), the economy is still dominated by state-owned enterprises (SOEs), which are typically large in scale, low in efficiency and lavish in spending due to easy credit.
> 
> But it seems that the government has become more aware of the importance of SEMs in rejuvenating the world's second-largest economy, especially that in the job market.
> 
> While contributing 60 percent of GDP and half of tax revenue, SMEs in China provide jobs to over 90 percent of employees in the country, government data showed.
> 
> That echoes a concern of Li Keqiang, the premier, that a slowdown in the economy below 7.0 percent could deal a heavy blow to the employment, a potential source of social unrest.
> 
> Addressing a series of economic meetings in recent days, the premier said the government still maintained an official target of 7.5 percent in growth, but a growth of below 7.0 percent will be intolerable.
> 
> China's slowdown is still deepening with manufacturing activity shrinking to an 11-month low in July, according to a preliminary survey conducted by HSBC. Growth in the country sank further to 7.5 percent in the second quarter.
> 
> While hailed by some economists, the tax cut is "not big enough" in the eyes of company owners. The number of businesses is quite limited falling within the range of below 20,000 yuan in monthly sales, especially in the manufacturing sector, the Beijing News reported, quoting one of the business owners.
> 
> Tax cut could be more fined tuned targeting different kinds of companies, the state-run newspaper said.
> "The tax cut is slightly small in terms of scale," said Yang Zhiyong, "Authorities should continuing hiking the threshold of related taxes to make more taxpayers involved."
> 
> His argument was also based on the fact that tax burden for business in China is higher than its peers, with tax rate at roughly 40 percent, compared with an average of 24-27 percent in the OECD countries in the past 30 years, according to a report issued by the Ministry of Finance.
> 
> Wednesday's tax cut was the most important part of a three-pronged program nailed at that meeting to support the economy. Others include a reduction of costs for exporters and guarantee of funds for the construction of railways.
> 
> Also on Wednesday, the National Development and Reform Commission, the top economic planning agency, announced plans allowing easier access to financing by small companies. Measures published in a statement on the NDRC's website including the expansion of a pilot program for small companies to issue collective corporate bonds.
> 
> http://english.caijing.com.cn/2013-07-25/113087394.html


----------



## hkskyline

wuhan by anshanjohn, on Flickr


----------



## foxmulder

Sopomon said:


> Not sure if you've flown very often, but there's a simple workaround to that: buying your tickets in advance.
> 
> Flying between London and Australia, you know that it's going to be busy in December, so you book your tickets in March to get the best prices.
> 
> This can easily be applied to the ticket vending system for CHSR.


Yeah... That's why I don't like flying.




Sopomon said:


> In terms of investment, it's less a case of over-investment as it is poorly managed projects and the build timeframes being far too short. Corners have been cut and some of the viaducts may need some serious repairs in a shorter time than expected. This will add a large cost later on in the period, especially with the size and scale of the network.


We will see that.


----------



## stoneybee

Fellows :

What do you think about this article???? Especially the point on the price/cost of HSR which has been the major negative sentiments of a lot of western articles regarding the Chinese HSR network and investment.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


China's New Bullet Trains Won't Eat Up Airline Profits
Beth Gardiner, Journalist 18.07.2013 
China is already home to the world's longest high-speed rail line and some of its fastest bullet trains, and the government is pouring billions of yuan into building new capacity. In fact, China plans to add more than 3,100 miles of high-speed rail track by 2015, bringing the total length of the system to about 9,000 miles. Meanwhile, China's airlines are also growing rapidly, with nearly 100 new airports planned by 2020.


"Can Airlines Beat High-Speed Rail?"
The turbocharged expansion of ultra-fast train networks has led some investors to question whether bullet trains could poach passengers and profits from airlines, Credit Suisse transportation analysts Davin Wu and Timothy Ross explained in a report called "Can Airlines Beat High-Speed Rail?" "The major concern of the market is that the airlines will cut airfare to protect their market shares, and that load factors (a measure of how full flights are) could be substantially lower than the levels before the launch of high-speed rail," they wrote. However, the analysts go on to say that such fears are probably unfounded. China's fast-growing middle class is more mobile than ever, and should do enough traveling in the future to keep both sectors healthy. In addition, the competition will be most heated on short routes, a realm in which airlines have already shown a willingness to cut their losses early and avoid costly price wars.

Travel Increasing Despite Economic Slowdown
Current data suggest the possibility that the growth of the middle class doesn't have to result in a zero-sum fight-to-the-death between the two forms of transport. According to the International Air Transport Association, China's domestic passenger travel rose by 13.4 percent in May, the healthiest growth rate of any country despite a continuing slowdown in the Chinese economy. Meanwhile, more than 1.7 billion passengers rode the train last year, up nearly 5 percent from the year before, according to Bloomberg. "There is enough room in that internal market for everybody to have a piece of the pie," said Amir Sharif, an operations management professor at Brunel Business School in London, calling the threat of airlines losing out to rail "a red herring." That's not to say that high-speed rail won't have a marked effect on certain parts of domestic airline's business. Credit Suisse analysts concluded that airlines stand to lose about 6 percent of their passenger traffic on 25 key domestic travel routes between 2013 and 2015 due to competition with the railroads. The highest attrition rates will occur on routes of less than 310 miles, where train travel tends to be faster, more convenient and cheaper.

Airlines Adapting Rapidly
Chinese airlines have already showed a canny knack for maintaining profit margins by quickly responding to increased competition. Last December, when China's newest high-speed rail line opened – a 572-mile high-speed line connecting the northeastern cities of Harbin and Dalian – most airlines simply left the market, cutting routes that overlapped with the rail corridor and shifting planes to other, less competitive routes. "We see this swift capacity adjustment, instead of cutting their airfares and profit, as a good sign that airlines can be nimble in competing [with bullet trains]," Credit Suisse analysts wrote. "While rail will remain a major competitor in the domestic market, its impact has largely been reflected in airline fleet planning strategies."

Service Expansion Will Boost Capacity
Air China, which does most of its business on international and long-haul domestic routes, is likely to be the airline least affected by high-speed rail competition, Credit Suisse analysts said. China Southern Airlines, the country's largest carrier, will suffer a greater loss of passengers, particularly along the new Beijing-Guangzhou train line, but should be able to adapt quickly. The airline's high-growth western hubs of Urumqi and Chongqing, along with an expansion of service to the United States, Europe and Australia, will help boost capacity by about 9 percent annually over the next three years, Credit Suisse said, offsetting losses in domestic routes competing with high-speed rail. Assuming that western China and international travel continue to grow quickly enough to fill the new seats, profit growth should rise steadily too.

Taiwan Setting a Precedent
The caveat: Chinese consumers have shown themselves to be very price-sensitive, and a high-speed rail fare cut could pose a serious risk to airlines, Credit Suisse warned. Taiwan offers an interesting precedent. In 2007, the year high-speed rail lines opened for business in Taiwan, air carriers pared back capacity on the critical route from Taiwan city to Kaohsiung, the territory's second-largest city, by nearly 44 percent. In an effort to undercut train prices that were 15 to 32 percent lower than airplane tickets, airlines cut fares by an average of 36 percent. Not to be outdone, high-speed train operators responded by slashing their prices an additional 20 percent. At that point, the airlines cried mercy: By the end of 2008, every airline with the exception of Mandarin Airlines had stopped flying the route. And Mandarin eventually conceded defeat in 2012.

Lowest Rates in the World
For now, a major move to cut rail ticket prices doesn't seem likely, the analysts said. For one thing, though bullet trains are significantly more expensive than China's highly subsidized "slow trains," the rates are still relatively affordable – an average worker's monthly income buys 24 tickets on a fast train in China, higher than the 23-ticket global average. In fact, Chinese high-speed rail fares are the lowest in the world, with an average price that is 36 percent lower than the cost of an airline ticket. What's more, the Chinese government has no interest in allowing a hard-fought price war and officials will be able to keep a closer eye on price competition now that officials have dissolved the Ministry of Railways and merged railway regulation into the Ministry of Transportation, which also regulates airlines, shipping and road travel.

In the longer-term, says Sharif of Brunel Business School, airline carriers need to understand the segmentation of the market and try to serve both the wealthy business passengers who likely already prefer flying and draw in the less affluent customers who might otherwise choose to save money by taking the train, even on longer trips. And how can they do that without having to resort to margin-destroying price cuts? The same way that every service business retains its customers, whether it's an airline or a bank: by providing the best customer service possible. "Those airlines that have tight relationships with customers will continue to hold them," he said.

https://www.credit-suisse.com/ch/en...ullet-trains-wont-eat-up-airline-profits.html


----------



## Sopomon

foxmulder said:


> Yeah... That's why I don't like flying.


Well it's a choice between paying higher prices, or the chanec of having no available tickets at all.
I'd prefer to pay more if I really needed to get somewhere, as opposed to the knowledge that I could be paying less, but that all the tickets have sold out.

^^
Stoneybee, the important thing to consider is that, due to the fact that the PLA controls most of China's airspace, China has the worst incidence of air travel delays in the world. This is mainly due to the fact that there are only a few narrow corridors that commercial flights are allowed to fly on through these PLA zones.

Until some kind of negotiation is made with the PLA, air travel is at a fundamental disadvantage.


----------



## foxmulder

@stoneybee

In my opinion, It is a solid article. 

Segmentation between HSR and airlines will be at ~900km, in my opinion as Harbin to Dalian line shows. And if speed increases, naturally it will be a longer distance. For example if speed to be 380km/h in Beijing-Shanghai line, I think train will win even at there at ~1300km.


----------



## luhai

Pansori said:


> Oh wow it's TE's readers club here. I happen to be one too... For the past 10 years at least
> 
> 
> OK, take this for example.
> http://www.economist.com/node/21542420
> 
> I mean cooooooome oooon. They do try to put some points there but are they really giving us any detail or insight? No. Jut general, vague and 'fits anything' kind of arguments that you could use for absolutely anything. Is that how a well written article should look like? The author clearly has zero knowledge on the topic yet 'hat to write something'. Its almost literally blah blah blah blah it's kinda bad what China is doing blah blah blah.
> 
> The article is clearly negative yet it doesn't provide any concrete and strong points besides the vague and repetitive ideas of safety (Wenzhou accident.... By that time it had been discussed like a million times and concrete measures taken).
> 
> Or this
> http://www.economist.com/node/18488554
> 
> One article claims that fares are too high for 'ordinary people' yet another one says that fares need to be 'liberalized' to help cover costs (read increased).
> 
> OK that might not be such utter bullshit with five factual mistakes in one sentence as that Reuters article citing Roubini but the points made by TE are vague, provide no evidence or details, are uninsightful, unprofessional , cite unnamed 'experts' and are very much empty blah blah blah'ing and yet ALWAYS have a strong negative note to them.


TE was much better under Bill Emmott, then it is now. It was much more focus on economics content rather than politics, and it does do on the ground journalism rather than Standard Form* when reporting on China. 

I found this as the most insightful article written on China by any western media. It's from Economist's old day, when is gone forever with the wind.
http://www.economist.com/node/5660833


* Copy the first 2 paragraph from other Chinese news sources (and for some reason they all like to use "Chinese State Media" rather than cite specific source), then write the body of the article as the author's reaction and opinion to that news, and finished article with references of all recent bad events/statics in China, relevant or not.


----------



## Norge78

"The [subprime] economist" and other _anglo-pornographic _ newspapers are not just pathetic, 
but sometimes a true *cancer* for us, westerners, first.


----------



## stoneybee

Sopomon said:


> ^^
> Stoneybee, the important thing to consider is that, due to the fact that the PLA controls most of China's airspace, China has the worst incidence of air travel delays in the world. This is mainly due to the fact that there are only a few narrow corridors that commercial flights are allowed to fly on through these PLA zones.
> 
> Until some kind of negotiation is made with the PLA, air travel is at a fundamental disadvantage.


It was true in the good old days, but do we have firm evidence that this is still the case? I am not sure. Do share if you have more evidence. 

My understanding of the cause of frequent delay has more to do with basic management effectiveness and the lack of an integrated air traffic control network that China is still in the process of building.


----------



## gdolniak

stoneybee said:


> It was true in the good old days, but do we have firm evidence that this is still the case? I am not sure. Do share if you have more evidence.
> 
> My understanding of the cause of frequent delay has more to do with basic management effectiveness and the lack of an integrated air traffic control network that China is still in the process of building.


This news was on recently. Check out here.


----------



## :jax:

Norge78 said:


> "The [subprime] economist" and other _anglo-pornographic _ newspapers are not just pathetic


Not that it has relevance to this thread, but TE was critical to the US housing market early on. At least that was where I heard of it first, well before the crisis.


----------



## Sunfuns

TE is a good magazine, but they aren't Gods and can't always predict the future.


----------



## Norge78

Sunfuns said:


> TE is a good magazine, but they aren't Gods and can't always predict the future.


Nope, good toilet paper. Anyway, you can find easily these "_gods_" bash drunk in phuket (reports from asia)


"TE was *critical* to the US" hno: 

what a joke


----------



## foxmulder

*"It feels like a time warp"
*
Nice take on the project.





> "High-speed Silk Road" to enliven NW China
> 
> July 28, 2013
> 
> 
> A high-speed railway that will enable passengers to travel the 1,900 km between the northwest Chinese cities of Lanzhou and Urumqi in eight hours upon completion in 2014 has been hailed for the trade boost it will bring.
> 
> The line has been dubbed a "high-speed Silk Road" for the role it will play in transporting goods and people along the historical network of trade routes which still play such a huge part in local commerce. In ancient times, it would have taken two months on camel-back to traverse the branch between the cities now known as Lanzhou and Urumqi.
> 
> "It feels like a time warp," says Wu Hanfei, an engineer with the high-speed railway construction project.
> 
> Wu came to the construction site at Gaotai County in Zhangye City, Gansu Province, in June 2010 to join thousands of workers.
> 
> In his spare time, Wu would look at a nearby railway track which opened to traffic in 1962. The track immediately became important for its ability to shuttle passengers from Lanzhou to Urumqi in 20 hours, and it will continue to operate.
> 
> When the new railway opens to traffic in October next year, however, the high-speed line will mostly serve passenger trains while the old one will serve cargo trains. At that point, the old railway will be freed up to transport 424 million tonnes of goods annually, twice as many as at present.
> 
> "This will significantly improve the transport capacity in northwest China," says Wu Tianyun, head of the Lanzhou Railway Bureau.
> 
> In ancient times, the tough travel conditions made journeying west a painful decision. It was often a one-way trip, with many people finding it impractical to return to the Central Plains.
> 
> The new railway will be linked to the country's railway network from Lanzhou after operation. Traveling from Beijing to Urumqi, which are more than 3,000 km apart, will take less than one day.
> 
> "By then, traveling west will be enjoyable for people living in central and eastern China, once the ancient Central Plains, because they will get to see historical relics, beautiful scenery, and exotic tradition without fearing they can never come back," says Wu Tianyun.
> 
> Cutting the journey time from months to hours, the high-speed Silk Road will change not only people's ways of traveling, but also northwest China's economic structure.
> 
> Starting from the ancient city of Chang'an, now known as Xi'an, the Silk Road extends to the Mediterranean region in the west and the Indian subcontinent in the south. Its total length is over 10,000 km, with 4,000 km located within China.
> 
> The cities now known as Lanzhou, Dunhuang, and Urumqi are all important stops on the route.
> 
> While silk continues to be the key trade good, agriculture, tourism, and the new energy and logistics industries have all boomed along the present-day Silk Road.
> 
> In the first four months of 2013, Dunhuang, which holds historical relics relating to the early Silk Road, received 750,000 tourists and a total revenue of 690 million yuan (112.5 million U.S. dollars).
> 
> And Wei Zhizhong, director of the Dunhuang Tourism Bureau, predicts, "After the operation of the high-speed railway, we'll see skyrocketing numbers of tourists."
> 
> While tourists are an important commodity traveling predominantly east to west along this route, grapes are a big deal going in the other direction.
> 
> The fruit used to be restricted largely to west China, with only wealthy families in the Central Plains able to afford it. Nowadays, more than 100,000 tonnes of grapes are transported each year from Dunhuang to central and east China. Some 120,000 mu (8,000 hectares) of land in Dunhuang are dedicated to growing the juicy orbs, and this is expected to expand.
> 
> "In ancient times, it would take 5,000 camels walking nearly two months to transport 100,000 tonnes of grapes from the west to central and eastern China," explains Niu Xinjun, a farmer in Qili County of Dunhuang.
> 
> In fact, wherever one looks along the Silk Road there are foundations for healthy growth that the new railway will surely build upon. While the Gobi Desert used to mean toil and death, everything seems lively today.
> 
> In the suburbs of Yumen City in Gansu, 1,100 wind towers stand along 40 km of desert. Enterprises are transporting steel and iron through railways to Yumen and building bases for new energy and manufacturing industries.
> 
> "By 2015, annual sales for these industries will reach 15 billion yuan," beams Yumen mayor Song Cheng.


----------



## sacto7654

The Xinjiang Autonomous Region has tremendous economic potential because there are known mineral riches and is very productive agricultural region anywhere near a water oasis. Small wonder why they are building that high-speed line from Urumqi to Lanzhou.


----------



## dao123

Anyone knows if it is possible to get a high speed train ticket for the day or the next day at a station in Beijing or Shanghai during chunyun (rush period around the chinese new year)?


----------



## hkskyline

dao123 said:


> Anyone knows if it is possible to get a high speed train ticket for the day or the next day at a station in Beijing or Shanghai during chunyun (rush period around the chinese new year)?


I thought the migrants would be taking the cheap trains. They cannot afford G/D comfort. That being said, the middle class will also be on the move, so best to buy a ticket as early as possible (although they only release tickets within a set time frame beforehand, so cannot book now).


----------



## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> *"It feels like a time warp"
> *
> Nice take on the project.





> A high-speed railway that will enable passengers to travel the 1,900 km between the northwest Chinese cities of Lanzhou and Urumqi in eight hours upon completion in 2014





> The new railway will be linked to the country's railway network from Lanzhou after operation. Traveling from Beijing to Urumqi, which are more than 3,000 km apart, will take less than one day.


This would require that travel from Beijing to Lanzhou should take less than 16 hours.

Not possible in 2014. The fastest train from Beijing to Lanzhou now is T27, via Taiyuan, that takes 17:02.

How is the progress of high speed railways between Beijing and Lanzhou?


----------



## hmmwv

hkskyline said:


> I thought the migrants would be taking the cheap trains. They cannot afford G/D comfort. That being said, the middle class will also be on the move, so best to buy a ticket as early as possible (although they only release tickets within a set time frame beforehand, so cannot book now).


When I made the mistake of taking CRH during Chunyun in 2012 it was packed with migrant workers. I don't think purchasing ticket a day in advance is gonna work, I'd suggest at least a week.


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> Not possible in 2014. The fastest train from Beijing to Lanzhou now is T27, via Taiyuan, that takes 17:02.


Fastest single train is T27. There are several possibilities to change trains in Xi'an and reduce the total time Beijing - Lanzhou to 14 hours, but



chornedsnorkack said:


> How is the progress of high speed railways between Beijing and Lanzhou?


One problem seems to be in Xi'an where they are missing a HSR connection between Xi'an Bei and Xi'an Shaanxi. :horse:


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## China Hand

Caternary is being installed on Datong-Xian.


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## FM 2258

^^

That's a long line, according to Wikipedia it will be a 250km/h line, why not 350km/h? Terrain? Either way 16.5 hours to over 3 hrs is a huge improvement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datong–Xian_Passenger_Dedicated_Railway_Line


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## China Hand

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> That's a long line, according to Wikipedia it will be a 250km/h line, why not 350km/h? Terrain? Either way 16.5 hours to over 3 hrs is a huge improvement.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datong–Xian_Passenger_Dedicated_Railway_Line


Realistically that time will be 4 hours not 3. The terrain is mostly flat loess plain except for some mountains on the way to Datong. North of Datong is mountainous and in the south it crosses the Yellow River ~70kms north of the current rail bridge, then tunnels under a mountain to connect up with the line from Xian to Zhengzhou at Weinan.

It will likely be a 250 line traveling at 200kph, so the trip from Datong to Xian will be 3.75 to 4.25 hours to cover the 859kms. Not 3 hours.

250 because of money, that province is poor, and justifying 380 speed on that line is not currently politically viable. Most of the inner party come from Beijing or Shanghai. One is from Shanxi, and that's why this line got built.

CE's here tell me that those 250 lines can be tweaked up to increase speed, but wear, maintenance and other issues arise. But it can be done if the caternary is spaced and tensioned correctly. Those are the main issues - tolerances on the rail, and the oscillations in the wire overhead. The rest is how much money you want to spend on energy, maintenance, and wearing out the trains and infrastructure.

You *could* go 400 on a 250 line, but it would wear out very fast and be dangerous in places as curves are not graded properly and the caternary/pantograph and wheel/track interfaces will wear rapidly. You also would set up standing waves in the power lines and that would be bad.


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## xinxingren

*Typhoon Jebi halts Hainan East HSR*
Details at www.12306.cn and www.accuweather.com


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## China Hand

dao123 said:


> Anyone knows if it is possible to get a high speed train ticket for the day or the next day at a station in Beijing or Shanghai during chunyun (rush period around the chinese new year)?


Possible? Yes.
Likely? No.

Buy them 20 or 21 days in advance. Get there early, first in line. Demand is huge, supply gone quickly.

If you are a foreigner, the clerk may take pity on you for being stupid, and find a way to squeeze you on the train if you just walk up that day or the previous.

If you live in China, book at a train ticket storefront, the station, or online.

If you are visiting, spend the extra money and have someone buy them for you. Yes, they will 4x charge you, but there is NO WAY you will get a ticket at that time.


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## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> This would require that travel from Beijing to Lanzhou should take less than 16 hours.
> 
> Not possible in 2014. The fastest train from Beijing to Lanzhou now is T27, via Taiyuan, that takes 17:02


Beijing-Xian, 5 or 6 hours
Xian-Lanzhou 6.5 to 8 hours

Once the Baoji leg is completed that will shorten the trip time about two hours.

It will be that last leg, to be completed in 2017, that connects Lanzhou to Xian, that will remove the final slow section. Then the time will not be 8 hours, but 2.5 hours.


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## FM 2258

China Hand said:


> Realistically that time will be 4 hours not 3. The terrain is mostly flat loess plain except for some mountains on the way to Datong. North of Datong is mountainous and in the south it crosses the Yellow River ~70kms north of the current rail bridge, then tunnels under a mountain to connect up with the line from Xian to Zhengzhou at Weinan.
> 
> It will likely be a 250 line traveling at 200kph, so the trip from Datong to Xian will be 3.75 to 4.25 hours to cover the 859kms. Not 3 hours.
> 
> 250 because of money, that province is poor, and justifying 380 speed on that line is not currently politically viable. Most of the inner party come from Beijing or Shanghai. One is from Shanxi, and that's why this line got built.
> 
> CE's here tell me that those 250 lines can be tweaked up to increase speed, but wear, maintenance and other issues arise. But it can be done if the caternary is spaced and tensioned correctly. Those are the main issues - tolerances on the rail, and the oscillations in the wire overhead. The rest is how much money you want to spend on energy, maintenance, and wearing out the trains and infrastructure.
> 
> You *could* go 400 on a 250 line, but it would wear out very fast and be dangerous in places as curves are not graded properly and the caternary/pantograph and wheel/track interfaces will wear rapidly. You also would set up standing waves in the power lines and that would be bad.


It's better than what we have in the US :lol: ..... for future proofing the line I thought it would make sense build it capable of 350km/h now and run it at 200km/h then if things get better in the region, run it faster. Thanks for the explanation...


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## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> It will likely be a 250 line traveling at 200kph, so the trip from Datong to Xian will be 3.75 to 4.25 hours to cover the 859kms. Not 3 hours.


Besides, Taiyuan-Shijiazhuang is also 250 km/h, not faster.

In which month of 2014 does Datong-Taiyuan-Xian high speed railway open for service?

When it does, what shall the trip time be Datong-Taiyuan-Shijiazhuang-Beijing on high speed railways throughout? And how shall it compare with the trip time direct Datong-Kalgan-Beijing, but on the slow speed railway?


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## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> Besides, Taiyuan-Shijiazhuang is also 250 km/h, not faster.


Speeds on those sections are 140 to 200kph, not 250kph.


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## China Hand

FM 2258 said:


> It's better than what we have in the US :lol: ..... for future proofing the line I thought it would make sense build it capable of 350km/h now and run it at 200km/h then if things get better in the region, run it faster. Thanks for the explanation...


There are actually downsides to being a first adopter.

In Africa people are jumping straight to 3G and 4G mobile phone networks, without even having 2G or POTS phones first.

Without an existing infrastructure, a contractor can come in and install the most recent technology and the poorest of nations can have access to the best technology quicker and at a lower price/cost than a more developed nation that spent money 20 years ago to install what is now an outdated network.

The USA has physical copper wire to most of its houses and buildings, work done in the first half of the 20th C. The businesses that installed that are resistant to putting in the new tech, as it costs them money and cuts into profits.

Many parts of rural North America still have no internet access or cable tv and must do it with satellite dishes as the companies that have the telecommunication monopoly for their community simply won't wire up the houses.

Villagers in an undeveloped nation may in fact have access to a more modern network.


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## FM 2258

^^

I'm sorry, I don't see how that relates to building a 350km/h capable line instead of a 250km/h capable line in a certain part of the country because it is poor. My understanding is that this line was built to slower standards because it's a poor part of the country. I feel like they should have built it to higher standards because in the future faster transport will be more feasible. They can run trains at 200km/h now on a 350km/h line and when the financial situation improves in the region, start running at 300km/h+. 

Then again, just the fact that they're building a high speed PDL in the area is a good thing.


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## Sunfuns

China Hand said:


> Possible? Yes.
> Likely? No.
> 
> Buy them 20 or 21 days in advance. Get there early, first in line. Demand is huge, supply gone quickly.
> 
> If you are a foreigner, the clerk may take pity on you for being stupid, and find a way to squeeze you on the train if you just walk up that day or the previous.
> 
> If you live in China, book at a train ticket storefront, the station, or online.
> 
> *If you are visiting*, spend the extra money and have someone buy them for you. Yes, they will 4x charge you, but there is NO WAY you will get a ticket at that time.


It's a lousy timing for a visit unless you have relatives there who otherwise wouldn't have any time to spend with you.


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## xinxingren

FM 2258 said:


> My understanding is that this line was built to slower standards because it's a poor part of the country. I feel like they should have built it to higher standards because in the future faster transport will be more feasible.


I believe the slower standards are cheaper and thus more affordable, or politically justifiable, in a poor part of the country. The next question is will in the future faster transport be more affordable in this same part of the country?


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## Restless

xinxingren said:


> I believe the slower standards are cheaper and thus more affordable, or politically justifiable, in a poor part of the country. The next question is will in the future faster transport be more affordable in this same part of the country?


Look at the geography of Taiyuan - Shijiazhuang.

The extra speed doesn't make much difference to journey times.
Plus the route is probably doesn't have enough traffic to justify the extra cost.


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## hmmwv

xinxingren said:


> I believe the slower standards are cheaper and thus more affordable, or politically justifiable, in a poor part of the country. The next question is will in the future faster transport be more affordable in this same part of the country?


I think this likely the reason, a 250km/h line running D trains is easier to be approved by NDRC than a proper Gaotie line running G trains. It's also a lower profile project that will likely attract less public opposition.


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## big-dog

Sunfuns said:


> Are there currently any HS lines in operation or under construction going from Guangzhou towards Nanning and Vietnamese border?


FYI. Most U/C HSR lines will open either this year or early next year.

The Nanning-Vietnam traditional rail is u/c as part of Pan-Asia Rail. The HSR is only at pro/prep stage.



RockAss said:


> four u/c lines:
> 1. Guangzhou-Nanning Railway, 577km, designed speed 250 km/h
> 2. Yunnan–Guangxi High-speed railway (Kunming–Nanning), 710km, designed speed 200-250 km/h
> 3. Liuzhou–Nanning Intercity Railway, 223km, designed speed 250 km/h
> Hunan–Guangxi Railway (Hengyang–Liuzhou), 498km, designed speed 200-250 km/h
> 4. Guangxi Coastal Railway, 261km, designed speed 250 km/h
> Nanning–Qinzhou (99km)
> Qinzhou–Fangchenggang (100km)
> Qinzhou–Beihai (63km)
> 
> two pro/prep lines:
> 1. Nanning–Pingxiang High-Speed Line
> 2. Nanning-Hechi line
> 
> Source: people.com.cn Nanning railway hub special plan was approved six high-speed rail lines (《南宁枢纽铁路专项规划》获批复 六条高铁入南宁)
> 
> Around Nanning
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> few more pictures Nanning-Qinzhou line
> 
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> 
> images by ljnd from gaoloumi


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## Jerrodwhite

The aerial view looks so neat..i guess these high speed trains are pretty amazing in both in speed and efficiency.


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## big-dog

HSR and traditional train in Daxing, Beijing Suburb



by 扈军


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## China Hand

FM 2258 said:


> I'm sorry, I don't see how that relates to building a 350km/h capable line instead of a 250km/h capable line in a certain part of the country because it is poor. My understanding is that this line was built to slower standards because it's a poor part of the country. I feel like they should have built it to higher standards because in the future faster transport will be more feasible.


Projects are done based upon persuasion, sales and engineering. At the national level, that means politics.

Politics will always trump all other concerns, and what was politically possible was 250kph in a poor province that had one benefactor fall from grace and one in the inner circle.


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## China Hand

Blue is a cheaper pigment and reflects sunlight. Supposedly they are saving white for something else.


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## damndynamite

At the end of 2012, the high speed rail network was 9300 km in route length.

Big milestone question: On what date in 2013, will it reach 10,000 km?


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## hkskyline

*Solving the Railway Financing Dilemma*
14 August 2013
Caixin

Current funding options are not working, meaning it is time for changes that can bring in trillions of yuan As excessive production capacity has been seen in many industries, the railway sector has become the major target for investment and is expected to support more steady growth. A July 24 State Council executive meeting even tackled the issue of railway investment reform.

Yet the China Railway Corp. (CRC) was saddled with debt of 2.84 trillion yuan by March, unprofitable new railroads and costly projects. It must raise enormous funds to cover the operational deficits, service existing debt and pay for new projects. Where will the money come from? At present, none of the existing financing options are viable.

Debt financing will be difficult. The CRC has a debt-to-asset ratio of 62.31 percent and is facing a debt maturity peak. Continuing to take on large-scale bonds or loans, even with interest subsidies by local governments, will further increase the burden and may also accelerate funding breaks.

Equity financing has limited appeal. The CRC tried to encourage more social funds to participate in the railway construction fund with few results. The reason is that railroads, especially high-speed projects, have not been profitable. There is no exit strategy for investors. In fact, Ping An Insurance Group and National Social Security Fund, which invested in the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway line in 2007, have asked the CRC to buy back their shares. Alternatively, despite government policies to encourage direct private investment in railroad projects, the market reaction has been lukewarm.

The dilemma requires more drastic reforms than simple investment and financing changes. Rather, it requires deeper levels of government and market interaction in railroad transport development strategy and management.

The central government needs to separate public policy objectives from market-oriented railroad operations. The government has long used the railroads to carry out policy objectives such as keeping passenger fares low and providing service to remote and impoverished areas. Profit from freight transport is used to fund those objectives, but the diversion of freight income depresses overall profitability and attractiveness to investors. Central authorities should directly fund their public policy objectives and allow the railways to be operated like enterprises. Profitable operations will attract more capital. The railroad construction strategy needs to be revised. The "Great Leap Forward" in high-speed construction under former minister Liu Zhijun created massive debt. The projects have failed to generate revenue as railroads suffer from overcapacity, low ridership and high costs.

Expansion should move away from building costly high-speed lines in sparsely populated western regions, and focus on building commuter rail in urban and suburban areas. In Tokyo, for example, there is 1,134 kilometers of commuter rail and 312 kilometers of subway track. This is fairly standard in cities around the world. Commuter rail construction could be financed from the sale of land near rail stations that rise in value, a winning situation for all parties. This financing model will require changes to local governments' tax and land sales models. Railroad organization management needs to be overhauled. The 18 rail bureaus under the CRC are holdovers of the previous Ministry of Railways. The bureaus are much too fragmented for effective management and independent operation as autonomous market actors. Most of the freight handled by any given bureau must be shipped through other bureaus and requires centralized management from the CRC. They are incapable of setting their own rates or raising their own funds, and depend on centralized accounting and funding outlays. This organizational structure is the biggest impediment to attracting investments from society at large. The CRC should organize the bureaus into subsidiaries – perhaps three in all – one for the north, central and south part of the country. Each company would be a legal person capable of issuing bonds and controlling its own finances. The CRC would act as the controlling shareholder and outside investors can own stakes in these companies. The subsidiaries would also be more responsive to market forces.

There are other ways to bring in market forces and private capital. The CRC can consider selling unprofitable lines to the private sector as new management may be able to turn these around. The CRC should also allow private railroad operators to access to the national network. Currently, privately and locally financed railroads and trains in operation are not permitted to connect to the CRC's national network. Granting access will increase investments in privately and locally owned rail projects. The CRC might also be able to rent out its large idle rolling stock to private companies.

These deeper reforms can unlock the potential for trillions of yuan to flow into the sector and directly enhance economic growth and societal development. The author is a professor of economics and management at Beijing Jiaotong University


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## xinxingren

Guangzhou - Shenzhen discount fares to continue till the end of October, except for Golden Week.
12306.cn


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## Pansori

hkskyline said:


> *Solving the Railway Financing Dilemma*
> 14 August 2013
> Caixin
> 
> ...Expansion should move away from building costly high-speed lines in sparsely populated western regions, and focus on building commuter rail in urban and suburban areas....


Is he saying to stop building HSR and build commuter networks around major cities instead? That would be a little stupid. China _desperately_ needs to continue HSR expansion _AND_ build commuter railways. There is no need to 'move away' from anything.


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## foxmulder

No, he is just trying to create excuses to privatize the rail system.


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## Pansori

The perception I've got is that Caixin usually doesn't even try to mask its open and straightforward support for private corporate agenda. Not that it's always a bad thing but I think infrastructure and especially railways should neither be tools for private corporations nor politicians seeking popularity or irrational political goals. It should be something that benefits economy in the long term through making people more mobile and land more attractive for living and economic activities. It looks like this is pretty much what has been happening through the rapid expansion of HSR system. Or am I wrong and it's all just a political show-off?

I'm not sure how privatization of railways would make it better. Examples show that it may go horribly wrong in some cases (e.g. Britain).


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## Silly_Walks

hkskyline said:


> *Solving the Railway Financing Dilemma*


I don't really understand this. Just about a year or so ago, maybe more, I read articles about China desperately needing places to invest their vast surplus of money... rail seems to be a very solid long-term investment, even for currently 'poor' inner sections of the country. If I had money to invest I would totally invest in Chinese HSR. All the HSR I used in China was PACKED, and not cheap for Chinese standards. Surely a long-term profit is almost a certainty. Granted, I only used rail between big cities, but those should be able to bring in so much money to actually also be able to help fund the 'smaller' HSR lines in more rural areas.


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## foxmulder

Pansori said:


> It should be something that benefits economy in the long term through making people more mobile and land more attractive for living and economic activities.



Absolutely! Once you got that you can see there is almost no way China can over-invest in rail for medium term (~10 years). 

There may be some exceptions of course but vast majority of investment on rail system is justified, in my opinion.


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## hkskyline

Silly_Walks said:


> I don't really understand this. Just about a year or so ago, maybe more, I read articles about China desperately needing places to invest their vast surplus of money... rail seems to be a very solid long-term investment, even for currently 'poor' inner sections of the country. If I had money to invest I would totally invest in Chinese HSR. All the HSR I used in China was PACKED, and not cheap for Chinese standards. Surely a long-term profit is almost a certainty. Granted, I only used rail between big cities, but those should be able to bring in so much money to actually also be able to help fund the 'smaller' HSR lines in more rural areas.


Well, the tides have turned and there are suspicions of a looming debt crisis in China. You are right to say the long-term viability of HSR is sound, but they spent hundreds of billions building these things and the interest costs alone cannot be sustained by today's full trains.


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## skyridgeline

hkskyline said:


> Well, the tides have turned and there are suspicions of a looming debt crisis in China. You are right to say the long-term viability of HSR is sound, but *they spent hundreds of billions building these things and the interest costs alone cannot be sustained *by today's full trains.


That's why 'investors' should stay away :wink2: .


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## xinxingren

Pansori said:


> [/url]
> IMG_2105 -1 by jo.sau, on Flickr
> I bought my ticket at around 11.50. The first train I could take was 16:05
> Maybe it was just that time? So you say it won't happen like this from GZ South to Gongbei?





Silly_Walks said:


> All the HSR I used in China was PACKED, and not cheap for Chinese standards. Surely a long-term profit is almost a certainty. Granted, I only used rail between big cities, but those should be able to bring in so much money to actually also be able to help fund the 'smaller' HSR lines in more rural areas.





hkskyline said:


> Well, the tides have turned and there are suspicions of a looming debt crisis in China. You are right to say the long-term viability of HSR is sound, but they spent hundreds of billions building these things and the interest costs alone cannot be sustained by today's full trains.


It's a problem alright. _Silly_Walks_ found the trains are so packed; _Pansori_ couldn't even get a ticket; I'm not an accountant, but I do read newspapers who agree with _hkskyline_ on the repayment of interest. So why in the inscrutable orient are nonexistent tickets for packed trains being discounted?


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## skyridgeline

xinxingren said:


> It's a problem alright. _Silly_Walks_ found the trains are so packed; _Pansori_ couldn't even get a ticket; I'm not an accountant, but I do read newspapers who agree with _hkskyline_ on the repayment of interest. So why in the inscrutable orient are *nonexistent tickets for packed trains being discounted*?


To alleviate congestion and maximize revenues :dunno: .


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## silent_dragon

Any idea when is the Xiamen-Shenzhen high speed line will start service?


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## hkskyline

xinxingren said:


> It's a problem alright. _Silly_Walks_ found the trains are so packed; _Pansori_ couldn't even get a ticket; I'm not an accountant, but I do read newspapers who agree with _hkskyline_ on the repayment of interest. So why in the inscrutable orient are nonexistent tickets for packed trains being discounted?


I tried this exact Shenzhen North - Guangzhou South route recently (G trains). They were all sold out. I had to wait 6 hours for the next available departure in Deluxe Class (not Second, not First, but one above First). I ended up taking a bus but secured the return for the next day in First Class.

My return trip left with a full First Class.

Shenzhen - Guangzhou East sees far more D trains and the ticket situation is a lot better.


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## silent_dragon

I wonder how this line gets even busier when it is extended to Hong Kong. I hope there is an express train from HK to SZ standing room only similar to subway trains and does not need to line up to buy tickets. Just use the Octopus or Shenzhen Tong cards.


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> *Solving the Railway Financing Dilemma*
> 14 August 2013
> Caixin
> 
> Expansion should move away from building costly high-speed lines in sparsely populated western regions, and focus on building commuter rail in urban and suburban areas. In Tokyo, for example, there is 1,134 kilometers of commuter rail and 312 kilometers of subway track. This is fairly standard in cities around the world. Commuter rail construction could be financed from the sale of land near rail stations that rise in value, a winning situation for all parties.
> This financing model will require changes to local governments' tax and land sales models. Railroad organization management needs to be overhauled. The 18 rail bureaus under the CRC are holdovers of the previous Ministry of Railways. The bureaus are much too fragmented for effective management and independent operation as autonomous market actors. Most of the freight handled by any given bureau must be shipped through other bureaus and requires centralized management from the CRC.
> 
> The CRC should organize the bureaus into subsidiaries – perhaps three in all – one for the north, central and south part of the country. Each company would be a legal person capable of issuing bonds and controlling its own finances. The CRC would act as the controlling shareholder and outside investors can own stakes in these companies. The subsidiaries would also be more responsive to market forces.
> 
> The CRC should also allow private railroad operators to access to the national network. Currently, privately and locally financed railroads and trains in operation are not permitted to connect to the CRC's national network. Granting access will increase investments in privately and locally owned rail projects.


Some of these arguments are contradictory.

IF China needs to build commuter railway networks THEN it makes perfect sense to control and finance them locally. In which case the number of about 18 railway bureaus makes perfect sense! It seems to me that many urban regions in China cross prefecture level city boundaries (prefectures, autonomous prefectures and leagues are usually not urbanized) so a railway bureau of about province size could plan and run a commuter rail network. The exceptions being the two transborder urban regions of capital (spanning Beijing, Tianjin and Hebei) and Yangtze Delta (spanning Shanghai, Jiangsu, Zhejiang and Anhui). And that is where a single railway bureau spanning several provinces would do nicely.

Yes, there is a need for overarching organization handling the long-distance freight and passenger transportation. But I do not see natural borders of "north, centre and south" here - there would still be a need to coordinate transborder traffic and route planning, so that is what is best done on the central level of Railway Corporation.


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## Traceparts

chornedsnorkack said:


> Some of these arguments are contradictory.
> 
> IF China needs to build commuter railway networks THEN it makes perfect sense to control and finance them locally. In which case the number of about 18 railway bureaus makes perfect sense! It seems to me that many urban regions in China cross prefecture level city boundaries (prefectures, autonomous prefectures and leagues are usually not urbanized) so a railway bureau of about province size could plan and run a commuter rail network. The exceptions being the two transborder urban regions of capital (spanning Beijing, Tianjin and Hebei) and Yangtze Delta (spanning Shanghai, Jiangsu, Zhejiang and Anhui). And that is where a single railway bureau spanning several provinces would do nicely.
> 
> Yes, there is a need for overarching organization handling the long-distance freight and passenger transportation. But I do not see natural borders of "north, centre and south" here - there would still be a need to coordinate transborder traffic and route planning, so that is what is best done on the central level of Railway Corporation.


Caixi has huge aviation background, the west region has several big aviation hubs such as Chengdu, Kunming, that's is the reason why it said:"*Expansion should move away from building costly high-speed lines in sparsely populated western regions, and focus on building commuter rail in urban and suburban areas*"  , no need to take it seriously


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## China Hand

undefined


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## Traceparts

when talk about west china, you may think it like this, 90% of chinese population live in East part of China, west part of China is sparsely populated 









but when we talk about high speed railway, the West china definition is quite different








so to call "west china" as "sparsely populated western regions" is misleading, for example sichuang province , Chongqing city, shaanxi province, Yunnan province are all densely populated region, they all deserve high speed railway as the east coast region


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## Pansori

hkskyline said:


> I tried this exact Shenzhen North - Guangzhou South route recently (G trains). They were all sold out. I had to wait 6 hours for the next available departure in Deluxe Class (not Second, not First, but one above First). I ended up taking a bus but secured the return for the next day in First Class.
> 
> My return trip left with a full First Class.
> 
> Shenzhen - Guangzhou East sees far more D trains and the ticket situation is a lot better.


This is a little strange given that Shenzhen North is quite some distance away from the main urban core of Shenzhen (there are plans for a new 'CBD' there of course but that is still just a plan). It takes time to get there from most central places. Whereas Shenzhen station is at one of the busiest central spots of the city. So why is that?

However I noticed that they were using 8 car trains (at least some of them), not 16. My guess is that at the moment they simply don't have enough 16 car trainsets which would increase capacity during the busy times?


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## Woonsocket54

Traceparts said:


> when talk about west china, you may think it like this, 90% of chinese population live in East part of China, west part of China is sparsely populated


Xian is considered northwest China - maybe at one time it was.

It is interesting that Northwestern University of USA and Northwestern University PRC are both located near the center of the country.


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## silent_dragon

Pansori said:


> This is a little strange given that Shenzhen North is quite some distance away from the main urban core of Shenzhen (there are plans for a new 'CBD' there of course but that is still just a plan). It takes time to get there from most central places. Whereas Shenzhen station is at one of the busiest central spots of the city. So why is that?


The current u/c Futian station further south is nearer to the city center. The north station site was probably chosen for economic reasons as it is a large station with intersection for the future Maoming and Xiamen lines.


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## silent_dragon

In my opinion, one of unwritten reason why the Chinese gov is willing to expend resources in building high speed rails in sparsely populated areas(the lanzhou to urumqi line for example) is for defense/military purpose.

If we look back history it is pretty clear repeating pattern. Only this time the Chinese is very clever and forward thinking.

In the 1930s, Germany was leading in technology revolution. They just lost WW1 but quickly re industrialize in just 15+ years. Then Adolf Hitler created autobahns, with straight roads and no intersections and there were only a handful of vehicles at that time. These roads were even designed so straight that it was possible to land an aircraft. This project did indeed stimulate the German economy at that time. Unfortunately the hidden agenda was for preparation for war to transport troops efficiently.

When the Germans were defeated in WW2 in 1945, Americans occupied west germany saw the immense strategic military and economic value of the autobahns. So impressed that Eisenhower signed the immediate construction of the American Interstate system in the early 1950s. This project required very huge investment and very little return. It indeed stimulate the American economy and became an industrial superpower in 1950-1980s.

Fast forward to 21th century. The Chinese replicated the autobahn concept but with a twist. They added the high speed rails to efficiently transport people. And in case oil runs out or scarcely available, efficient transport shall still be possible. The economic results are clearly visible. So in an event of war or even disasters these lines will be highly valuable to transport troops and materials. And IMO this is probably one of the strategic reason.

The Chinese high speed rail strategy is very clever. They dont have any viable technology from the start. They just buy whats already working and developed it further. And the disgraced MOR minister Liu Zhijun made one good point to build High speed rails very fast to beat inflation and while the resources are still cheap. His point was so good, in fact the MOR ministry received the second highest budget, just behind the military.

Who would be willing to build high speed rail in 2020s forward when the materials will be expensive, particularly copper and steel? It just make sense build them now while resources are still cheap.


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## xinxingren

silent_dragon said:


> So in an event of war or even disasters these lines will be highly valuable to transport troops and materials. And IMO this is probably one of the strategic reason.


I wonder what type of war or disaster the Chinese might have in mind when making this provision. ISTR when they were heading west to Chongqing the last train pulled up the rails behind and carried them away, while sappers dynamited the bridges. Most of the HSR network seems to be built fairly rugged, but it hasn't had a real earthquake/flood test yet, and in armed conflict what remained would be reduced fairly quickly to diesel haulage.


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## China Hand

> sichuan province , Chongqing city, shaanxi province, Yunnan province are all densely populated region, they all deserve high speed railway as the east coast region undefined


They are not densely populated in Chinese terms. Sichuan and Yunnan have vast areas of open rural mountainous countryside. Shaanxi is also sparsely populated when compared to Hebei and Henan.

The rail is going where the people are.



> Xian is considered northwest China - maybe at one time it was.


It still is from the Chinese perspective. You are looking at a map. The Chinese look at where they are, where people live, and they aren't west of Xi'an. Xi'an was the end of the Silk Road - IOW it was the western most trading post in China. This is still true today. It is the first large city when you come from the West - all other cities to the west are smaller than Xi'an. It's where dates (the fruit) come into the country. Still.

Sichuan, Shaanxi, Yunnan, Inner Mongolia, and anything north or east of Beijing is all considered 'far away and distant' in Chinese thinking. China, the core, is the remaining provinces to the south and east of those I mention. 1.05 billion people live in those provinces. <30% of the landmass of China.

The country is mostly empty with everyone crowded into the eastern coastal provinces.


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## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> They are not densely populated in Chinese terms. Sichuan and Yunnan have vast areas of open rural mountainous countryside. Shaanxi is also sparsely populated when compared to Hebei and Henan.


Population densities over the entire borders of province:
Henan - 582
Chongqing - 379
Hebei - 363
Sichuan - 180
Shaanxi - 180
Yunnan - 112.

But these vast areas of open mountains are in western parts of Sichuan - actually, the old Xikang Province. The Red Basin of Eastern Sichuan, east of Dujiangyan and Yibin at the foot of Daxue mountains, is pretty densely settled.


China Hand said:


> It still is from the Chinese perspective. You are looking at a map. The Chinese look at where they are, where people live, and they aren't west of Xi'an.


Xian is the heart of Zhou, Qin, Han and Tang. And Guanzhong extends both east and west of Xian - as far as Baoji.



China Hand said:


> Xi'an was the end of the Silk Road - IOW it was the western most trading post in China. This is still true today. It is the first large city when you come from the West - all other cities to the west are smaller than Xi'an.


True by comparison. But the Chinese sedentary dry farming goes on across Loess Plateau of western Shaanxi into eastern Gansu. It may be more logical to count Lanzhou as the first large city - counting the bulk of Gansu corridor as a real desert, finally.


China Hand said:


> Sichuan, Shaanxi, Yunnan, Inner Mongolia, and anything north or east of Beijing is all considered 'far away and distant' in Chinese thinking. China, the core, is the remaining provinces to the south and east of those I mention. 1.05 billion people live in those provinces. <30% of the landmass of China.
> 
> The country is mostly empty with everyone crowded into the eastern coastal provinces.


Liaoning is east of Beijing, yet it also is eastern coastal. Population density 289 is bigger than e. g. Jiangxi (257). Of course, it is Manchukuo, not China Proper.


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## China Hand

Red is where the dense part of China exists.

Book knowledge and the real world differ.

If you drive from Shanghai to Xi'an or Shaanxi, the decrease in density is obvious. If you included the 5 large population centres in the border provinces, you only gain their eastern portions.

In the image below, Chongqing and Chengdu and Xian are the three large areas west of the broader density. It's easy to see the Henan border with Shanxi and Shaanxi as density drops there.


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## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> Red is where the dense part of China exists.


Not according to your second map.


China Hand said:


> In the image below, Chongqing and Chengdu and Xian are the three large areas west of the broader density. It's easy to see the Henan border with Shanxi and Shaanxi as density drops there.


Yes, on the mountain front of Taihangshan.

But it is easy to see the Henan and Anhui border with Hubei, Jiangxi and Fujian as well - because the population density drops on Dabeishan and Nanling as well. Guangzhou is far away to the south of the broader density, separated by wide and sparsely settled Nanling.


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## China Hand

chornedsnorkack you obviously are basing your opinions on book/internet knowledge. 60 years of life has taught me that books miss 99.9% of life as it truly exists.

I live in China.

Others can decide who is correct.


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## Restless

These maps are more detailed and offer a useful comparison between China and Europe.

You can see that the Paris-Lyon HSR works because they are large cities, even though it is mostly empty countryside between them.

You can also see that there is a population corridor from Xian-Lanzhou-Urumqi.

And if I look at Lanzhou-Jiuquan, I see a 700km population corridor with 15-20million people.
So a HSR to complement the conventional track looks reasonable as there will be a demand from the people living there and also from through traffic.


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## silent_dragon

>


This is really an interesting map. Majority of the Indians are living at the foot of the Himalayas mountain range. And majority of the Chinese in the coastal region.

From this it can be deduced that the Indians are highly dependent to the Himalayas water run off. I wonder why the Indians are not densely populated in the coastal regions like in China or US.


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## hkskyline

Pansori said:


> This is a little strange given that Shenzhen North is quite some distance away from the main urban core of Shenzhen (there are plans for a new 'CBD' there of course but that is still just a plan). It takes time to get there from most central places. Whereas Shenzhen station is at one of the busiest central spots of the city. So why is that?
> 
> However I noticed that they were using 8 car trains (at least some of them), not 16. My guess is that at the moment they simply don't have enough 16 car trainsets which would increase capacity during the busy times?


Shenzhen North is about the same distance from the Futian CBD as the Lo Wu station, and the line is new for G trains that will eventually reach Kowloon.


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## :jax:

Probably more a dependency on the monsoon, though the Himalayan run-off will no doubt be important. The map of Indian potential high-speed lines matches the density map somewhat.










More in the Pan-Asian high-speed thread.


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## chornedsnorkack

:jax: said:


> Probably more a dependency on the monsoon, though the Himalayan run-off will no doubt be important.


IMO mainly dependency of relief. The broad Ganges plain lies on the feet of Himalayas. Due to monsoon, its most densely settled part is coastal - Bangladesh and West Bengal. The upper plain, towards Delhi, is slightly less densely settled - but the hills of Deccan are much less dense. There are very densely settled parts on narrow coastal plains - but these are narrow and small clusters around the coast. Much like southern China, which also is sparsely settled for the same reason - hills, and narrow though sometimes very densely settled coastal plains.


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## xinxingren

China Hand said:


> Sichuan and Yunnan have vast areas of open rural mountainous countryside. Shaanxi is also sparsely populated when compared to Hebei and Henan.
> 
> The rail is going where the people are.


A lot of rail in the past went where the politicians told it to go. An example is the Chengdu - Kunming line surveyed in the 1950s. The shortest route went through the easiest construction country, but the western route was chosen. Detailed survey had revealed that the Panzhihua mineralization was so important the route is the longest and through the most difficult mountains. 
过山车成昆铁路
ISRC:CNA030700410
DVD of a CCTV Documentary 
Of course the construction techniques of modern HSR are somewhat improved, but I believe the politics of route choice are still much the same.


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## hkskyline

Sopomon said:


> Surely if your ticket gives you a seat, it's expected that that is the seat you'll take? Or is the general populace happier simply dashing for whichever suits their needs, regardless of when they actually booked it for?


If there are no specific boarding gates for each train, then you need more people to check and sort out any seating confusions on board. There will be people that will try to take an earlier or later train than their ticket, which will create a lot of problems on board as the G trains do not allow standees.


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## hmmwv

Sunfuns said:


> You'd find it much less of a joke if someone were to build a line (not a station) on a high viaduct just 100 m from your apartment.
> 
> Seriously looks like the easy and fast era of infrastructure building in China is about to be over. Overall probably a good thing and a sign of more advanced society.


Most of those "concerned residents" are just there trying to get more money out of the government. A lot of the so called concerns are bogus claims such as electromagnetic radiation like what stopped the Shanghai-Hangzhou maglev. If they are really concerned they should have suited their property developers, who knowingly built residential complexes too close to the planned railway lines. This line may be delayed further if CRC doesn't just suck up and pay.


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## China Hand

undefined


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## _Night City Dream_

I have a question. Why did it happen that almost on all lines in shanghai, Hangzhou, Nanjing and even Guangzhou and Shenzhen there are only Siemens Velaro trains? Seems like all Kawasaki and Hitachi trains were written off? Where are they now?

In late 2011 I noticed Kawasaki trains were more spread in Shanghai railway stations than all the other CRH trains. Where did they go?


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## Restless

_Night City Dream_ said:


> I have a question. Why did it happen that almost on all lines in shanghai, Hangzhou, Nanjing and even Guangzhou and Shenzhen there are only Siemens Velaro trains? Seems like all Kawasaki and Hitachi trains were written off? Where are they now?
> 
> In late 2011 I noticed Kawasaki trains were more spread in Shanghai railway stations than all the other CRH trains. Where did they go?


It's better for a railway track to operate the same type of train, so I guess they've finally got enough trains to segregate by region.

The Kawasaki and Hitachi?? trains are slower than the Velaros.


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## Pansori

Restless said:


> It's better for a railway track to operate the same type of train, so I guess they've finally got enough trains to segregate by region.
> 
> The Kawasaki and Hitachi?? trains are slower than the Velaros.


Some CRH2 are designed for 350km/h. Just like CRH3 right?


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## Restless

Pansori said:


> Some CRH2 are designed for 350km/h. Just like CRH3 right?


I think so.
But they'll have different operating characteristics, so it's better for them to be segregated off.


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## _Night City Dream_

Restless said:


> It's better for a railway track to operate the same type of train, so I guess they've finally got enough trains to segregate by region.
> 
> The Kawasaki and Hitachi?? trains are slower than the Velaros.


Slower? Some models are Japanese but they can reach 380. And then, Japanese-based trains are quieter than Velaros when speeding up from the start.

I understand segregation but in this case where did all Japanese trains go?

UPD:

Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railways_CRH380A they say trains can reach 380 km/h and all the pictures show trains based on Japanese Shinkansen. These are my favorite high speed trains in China and I wonder where they disappeared.

Test have shown their potential as 486 km/h against 487 for Velaros. I don't think it is too much as a difference.

Then, as for Velaros, we read:



> All 54 CRH380BL trainsets were recalled in mid-August 2011 due to operational problems on the new Beijing–Shanghai High-Speed Railway. The new trains were reported as being "too sensitive" and the subject of frequent breakdowns in stormy weather. They will be temporarily replaced by the CRH380A and CRH380AL


.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railways_CRH3

As. Can understand it means that Velaros were replaced by Kawasakis, right?


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## Silly_Walks

_Night City Dream_ said:


> As. Can understand it means that Velaros were replaced by Kawasakis, right?


Where do you read this?


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## _Night City Dream_

I gave the source in the previous post.

Sorry, they WILL be replaced by Kawasakis temporarily.

Still, where did almost all Japanese trains go, I didn't find the answer. They are not slower and they seem to be more reliable.


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## Restless

_Night City Dream_ said:


> I gave the source in the previous post.
> 
> Sorry, they WILL be replaced by Kawasakis temporarily.
> 
> Still, where did almost all Japanese trains go, I didn't find the answer. They are not slower and they seem to be more reliable.


The Beijing-Shanghai line is almost a self-contained railway line - so any train breakdowns won't ripple onto the rest of the network.

So I suspect that the 250km/h Kawasaki CRH2 and it's faster derivatives have been deployed to Beijing-Guangzhou and the other interior lines - because they have longer distances and a network configuration which means train breakdowns cause more disruption.


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## big-dog

hkskyline said:


> If there are no specific boarding gates for each train, then you need more people to check and sort out any seating confusions on board. There will be people that will try to take an earlier or later train than their ticket, which will create a lot of problems on board as the G trains do not allow standees.


yes this is not a big issue for small stations but for large ones with many platforms and the crowds it'll be very frustrating.


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## hmmwv

_Night City Dream_ said:


> I have a question. Why did it happen that almost on all lines in shanghai, Hangzhou, Nanjing and even Guangzhou and Shenzhen there are only Siemens Velaro trains? Seems like all Kawasaki and Hitachi trains were written off? Where are they now?
> 
> In late 2011 I noticed Kawasaki trains were more spread in Shanghai railway stations than all the other CRH trains. Where did they go?


I never noticed that those lines only run Velaro based trains, there are plenty of CRH380As running on Beijing-Shanghai, and the Shanghai-Nanjing ICL has the bulk of CRH2C (350km/h capable) rolling stock. The older CRH2s are not on those lines because they are only rated at 250km/h, so they are now deployed to 200-250km/h lines.


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## hmmwv

_Night City Dream_ said:


> Slower? Some models are Japanese but they can reach 380. And then, Japanese-based trains are quieter than Velaros when speeding up from the start.
> 
> I understand segregation but in this case where did all Japanese trains go?
> 
> UPD:
> 
> Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railways_CRH380A they say trains can reach 380 km/h and all the pictures show trains based on Japanese Shinkansen. These are my favorite high speed trains in China and I wonder where they disappeared.
> 
> Test have shown their potential as 486 km/h against 487 for Velaros. I don't think it is too much as a difference.
> 
> Then, as for Velaros, we read:
> 
> .
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railways_CRH3
> 
> As. Can understand it means that Velaros were replaced by Kawasakis, right?


China did not import any 350-380km/h very high speed trainset technology from Japan. The only Japanese origin design that's capable of such speed is the CRH2C, which is more of an unsanctioned domestic effort.

The test you were referring to actually shows the 380As were quicker, the 486km/h record was achieved by an unmodified train, 380B's 487km/h was done with a shortened trainset.

The 380Bs were temporarily replaced by 380As and after the corrections have been implemented they are returned to serivce. No one replaced the other.


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## phoenixboi08

It boggles my mind that people insist that they aren't making advancements in technology...

I mean, they are building a thousands of km of lines! They're bound to discover a few things others haven't been able to perfect yet...


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## China Hand

Datong-Xian has caternary tensioning weights attached to the infrastructure at 50m spacings as they tighten the wire overhead.


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## M-NL

phoenixboi08 said:


> It boggles my mind that people insist that they aren't making advancements in technology...


They are making progress, but they are trying to leap from nothing to state of the art in a timespan that nobody has achieved before. 

Japan, France and Germany have spent decades to get to their current designs and we all know they're still not flawless. People will get wary when China buys those high speed trains from abroad and claims within 2 years to have produced an improved version that is capable of much higher speeds.


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## China Hand

Question for everyone:

Anyone have speed profiles BY TIME, not BY DISTANCE IN KM?

Anyone know what the time it is to take to accelerate on G/D trains to a given speed is?

Example:
1 minute to accelerate to 60kph, 2 min to 120, 3 min to 150, etc.

I am attempting to figure out possible maximum speeds for new PDL's that will have many stations that are close together. Trying to figure out that if two stations are 15km's apart, what the max speed will be due to acceleration and deceleration times; if stations are 20km's apart, 25km's apart, etc.


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## hmmwv

^^ Yaohua2000 most likely has the profile, if he posted them in terms of km maybe he can go back to the raw data to find out the time equivalent.


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## foxmulder

M-NL said:


> They are making progress, but they are trying to leap from nothing to state of the art in a timespan that nobody has achieved before.
> 
> Japan, France and Germany have spent decades to get to their current designs and we all know they're still not flawless. People will get wary when China buys those high speed trains from abroad and claims within 2 years to have produced an improved version that is capable of much higher speeds.


You are assuming China started from zero which is wrong. China has a solid research background in rail technology. Also the money China is investing is orders of magnitude higher than those countries combined. Don't you think it will have some results?

The main reason for higher speeds is the infrastructure not the trains themselves necessarily.


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## Restless

M-NL said:


> They are making progress, but they are trying to leap from nothing to state of the art in a timespan that nobody has achieved before.
> 
> Japan, France and Germany have spent decades to get to their current designs and we all know they're still not flawless. People will get wary when China buys those high speed trains from abroad and claims within 2 years to have produced an improved version that is capable of much higher speeds.


As an example, let me outline the situation with the Siemens Velaro / CRH3 / CRH380B/CRH380C

China has fully digested the blueprints as more high-speed trains are produced every year - than Siemens has produced in the last 30years combined.
Some of the components of the CRH3/CRH380B/CRH380C are still obtained from Siemens, but they're working to replace these with cheaper/better alternatives.

I suspect that Changchun Railways actually has a larger R&D complex than Siemens has for the Velaro. This is based on the limited information available from each company, and the fact that the Chinese know they're being charged a premium for anything they buy from Siemens.

It's a similar situation in Qingdao with the CRH2/CRH380A (Kawasaki) and the CRH1/CRH380D (Bombardier). But it looks like they're a lot more self-sufficient in terms of technology and have a larger R&D complex than Changchun.


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## Sopomon

@foxmulder



> You are assuming China started from zero which is wrong.


In terms of HSR, he isn't far from being right. China Star was the fastest pre-import set, but was rapidly withdrawn from service. Most likely the reason being reliability-related.



> The main reason for higher speeds is the infrastructure not the trains themselves necessarily.


Correct, but as mentioned on many occasions before, the wear and tear at those speeds necessitates better technologies, or else the maintenance budget skyrockets/ things begin to break. Perhaps the engineers realised that the higher speeds were not ready to be implemented. Zhou Yimin, ex-director of HSR had the following to say: 
“through the acquisition of foreign technology, pushed the system beyond the limits of reliability". 

Perhaps this, or the justifiable fears of poor quality infrastructure after such massive scale and speed of construction (not to mention a corruption scandal) were what lead to the drop in top speeds, rather than the popular scapegoat of 'politics'.

Worth a read in regards to the speed drop: http://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/techn...gh-speed-rail-programme-case-too-far-too-fast

From: http://www.railway-technology.com/features/feature124824

The corruption scandal, as well as the speed with which the tracks have been built, sparked not only an outcry in the industry but also fears over the poor quality of the lines, which were meant to carry trains travelling at up to 380km/hr. Chinese and foreign engineers alike started questioning the long-term strength of the tracks, especially of the concrete used in bridges and viaducts under contracts awarded during the term of Liu Zhijun.


@Restless


> China has fully digested the blueprints as more high-speed trains are produced every year - than Siemens has produced in the last 30years combined.
> Some of the components of the CRH3/CRH380B/CRH380C are still obtained from Siemens, but they're working to replace these with cheaper/better alternatives.


"Fully Digested" appears to be a relative - rather than an absolute - term when describing such matters. A quick read of this paper (which doesn't really say anything that isn't already broadly obvious) may help: http://digitalcommons.wcl.american.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1034&context=ipbrief



> I suspect that Changchun Railways actually has a larger R&D complex than Siemens has for the Velaro. This is based on the limited information available from each company, and the fact that the Chinese know they're being charged a premium for anything they buy from Siemens.
> 
> It's a similar situation in Qingdao with the CRH2/CRH380A (Kawasaki) and the CRH1/CRH380D (Bombardier). But it looks like they're a lot more self-sufficient in terms of technology and have a larger R&D complex than Changchun.


If they had such impressive R&D complexes, would you not argue that they would be proud of the innovation they foster and as such, impress upon the industry the size and scale of the complexes?


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## foxmulder

Sopomon, I can tell you this about Chinese high speed tech: 380D will be last imported high speed train for China and 380A is a Chinese design. There is also "crh500" which is probably the prototype for the next generation high speed rail. It is very safe to say China has a very solid high speed technology right now and it is actively developing it. Rest is irrelevant.


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## hmmwv

Sopomon said:


> @foxmulder
> 
> 
> 
> In terms of HSR, he isn't far from being right. China Star was the fastest pre-import set, but was rapidly withdrawn from service. Most likely the reason being reliability-related.


There is no question in terms of experience China is not in the same league as the more established players. However China Star is just one of many Chinese domestic HSR projects, China has a 16 year history of developing commercial HSR technology and has been operating high speed and quasi-high speed rail for 15 years. The history is short compare to Japan and France, but hardly starting from zero. Many domestic efforts were successful, such as DJJ1 Blue Arrow and DJF2 Pioneer who saw commercial service for ten years. Too bad they became available too late and MOR under the mandate to rapidly deploy HSR network in China couldn't afford to wait for their maturity, therefore opted for foreign imports. Sure it took China a while to develop those trainsets and many view them as opportunities wasted, but they provided China extremely valuable experience in designing and operating HSR, enabling China to quickly absorb foreign technologies and develop subsequent CRH trains.



Sopomon said:


> Correct, but as mentioned on many occasions before, the wear and tear at those speeds necessitates better technologies, or else the maintenance budget skyrockets/ things begin to break. Perhaps the engineers realised that the higher speeds were not ready to be implemented. Zhou Yimin, ex-director of HSR had the following to say:
> “through the acquisition of foreign technology, pushed the system beyond the limits of reliability".
> 
> Perhaps this, or the justifiable fears of poor quality infrastructure after such massive scale and speed of construction (not to mention a corruption scandal) were what lead to the drop in top speeds, rather than the popular scapegoat of 'politics'.
> 
> Worth a read in regards to the speed drop: http://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/techn...gh-speed-rail-programme-case-too-far-too-fast
> 
> From: http://www.railway-technology.com/features/feature124824
> 
> The corruption scandal, as well as the speed with which the tracks have been built, sparked not only an outcry in the industry but also fears over the poor quality of the lines, which were meant to carry trains travelling at up to 380km/hr. Chinese and foreign engineers alike started questioning the long-term strength of the tracks, especially of the concrete used in bridges and viaducts under contracts awarded during the term of Liu Zhijun.


There is no question that China has learned from practice that running trains at very high speed will incur significantly higher maintenance cost, and that will eat into railway operator's profitability. It was deemed acceptable compromise when China was seeking prestige in its HSR achievement, but in today's political environment it's no longer endorsed. There is no evidence suggest that there are widespread quality issues with HSR infrastructure in China, the fear of poor quality IMO is more of an uninformed one. Mr. Liu's personal greed aside, the man takes great pride in his work, that's why when the trains were doing record breaking high speed test runs he liked to stand right behind the driver. Not many railway officials in the world have the courage to do that, it means he has confidence in the train and the line his men built, does this sound like the person who will knowingly allow substandard viaducts to be build in exchange of money? The speed reduction was prompted by a drive to reduce operating cost as well as political pressure to adhere to President Hu's scientific development message. Many so called experts (mostly from western media outlets or airline industry backed publications such as Caixin) have spelled doom of Chinese HSR for two and half years now, yet the system continue to grow and have been providing the Chinese people with safe, reliable, and efficient means of transportation. The packed CRH trains and a huge drop in domestic air travel this year is the best testimony to Chinese HSR's success.




Sopomon said:


> @Restless
> 
> "Fully Digested" appears to be a relative - rather than an absolute - term when describing such matters. A quick read of this paper (which doesn't really say anything that isn't already broadly obvious) may help: http://digitalcommons.wcl.american.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1034&context=ipbrief
> 
> If they had such impressive R&D complexes, would you not argue that they would be proud of the innovation they foster and as such, impress upon the industry the size and scale of the complexes?


I too wouldn't say China has fully digested all imported foreign technologies, but the Chinese are not aiming at merely reverse engineer the product, but rather learn from its design philosophy and inspire ideas to solve similar problems faced by the local effort. They are also taking a very practical view at this issue, for components that don't have a domestic equivalent they are still purchasing directly from the OEMs.


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## xinxingren

On the safety question, why do they shutdown the east coast HSR line, and Hainan, when a typhoon comes by? What are the crosswind limits for these trains? How much water can they tolerate on the rails? Or is soil liquifaction the fear?


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## Silly_Walks

What I would do, and what I think China is doing, is to learn from all the stuff you imported, and just change it SLIGHTLY, not even improve it necessarily, just so you can make a full domestic product without needing to pay royalties for train sets or parts you produce domestically.

The 380A is an example of this approach, I think, because it is based mostly on imported Japanese technology, but the Chinese often stress that it is mostly a new train.

Of course, the foreign companies whose technology they imported in the first place tend to see things differently as they are gonna be losing out on a lot of income while products very similar to their own are still being produced.


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## silent_dragon

xinxingren said:


> On the safety question, why do they shutdown the east coast HSR line, and Hainan, when a typhoon comes by? What are the crosswind limits for these trains? How much water can they tolerate on the rails? Or is soil liquifaction the fear?


It maybe because the train may topple over strong winds. The train is long thus wide surface area for the wind to slam. And besides it is a passenger train; so its relatively lighter than a freight train.


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## M-NL

It will not topple over, except maybe in really extreme typhoons. The real problem with cross winds is actually that it pushes the train sideways on the tracks. The wheels of a train are tapered and on a solid axle. Normally on a straight track the train will run with the wheels touching the track at an equal radius for both wheels. However with strong winds when the train is pushed sideways the wheel on the windward side runs with a slightly smaller radius and on the leeward side with a slightly bigger radius. It's like continuously driving through a corner without an actual corner. This causes both extra friction on the train and extra wear on the tracks. If the wind is strong enough the leeward side wheelflange may even touch the rail.


----------



## M-NL

foxmulder said:


> You are assuming China started from zero which is wrong. China has a solid research background in rail technology.


Then answer this: Why still buy much more expensive foreign equipment when you have all that R&D and could have done the same yourself within a few years? The reality seems to be that they knew no amount of research could bring them up to scratch within a few years and opted to buy foreign to quickly learn the tricks.

It takes time to transition from a 'copy and improve' industry to a 'design from scratch' industry. China is still somewhere in between and for realising that and acting accordingly China has nothing to be ashamed of. All industrialising nations have gone through this same process.


----------



## Sopomon

foxmulder said:


> Sopomon, I can tell you this about Chinese high speed tech: 380D will be last imported high speed train for China and 380A is a Chinese design. There is also "crh500" which is probably the prototype for the next generation high speed rail. It is very safe to say China has a very solid high speed technology right now and it is actively developing it. Rest is irrelevant.


I don't doubt it. Why buy expensive foreign goods when you can make your own flavour of those technologies and produce it below cost? True, you could consider the 500 as next-gen, but it's little more than a test train, and strangely, I don't think anyone has seen it running in the year or so since it was unveiled? (I may be wrong)

However, the rest isn't really all that irrelevant when only a few years after construction finished on some lines, entire sections of railway are having to be replaced due to rushed construction and poor quality. This, and the lack of next gen tech, are actively limiting train speeds and preventing the goal of 380 km/h running from happening in the near future.


----------



## Sopomon

> There is no question in terms of experience China is not in the same league as the more established players. However China Star is just one of many Chinese domestic HSR projects, China has a 16 year history of developing commercial HSR technology and has been operating high speed and quasi-high speed rail for 15 years. The history is short compare to Japan and France, but hardly starting from zero. Many domestic efforts were successful, such as DJJ1 Blue Arrow and DJF2 Pioneer who saw commercial service for ten years. Too bad they became available too late and MOR under the mandate to rapidly deploy HSR network in China couldn't afford to wait for their maturity, therefore opted for foreign imports. Sure it took China a while to develop those trainsets and many view them as opportunities wasted, but they provided China extremely valuable experience in designing and operating HSR, enabling China to quickly absorb foreign technologies and develop subsequent CRH trains.


While I agree, my original argument was that such a rapid development of domestic tech, to the extent that trains can be labeled export-worthy, is very unfeasible, thus most of the tech even in the latest domestically designed sets is at least a tweaked version of what they had purchased a few years ago.

While I disagree with your second paragraph, there isn't much one can do but agree to disagree, as the affairs of the railways ministry and HSR are very murky and anyone outside of those circles can only guess. However, in terms of infrastructure quality I would point out a few articles that hint otherwise (Although I'm sure you're aware of these): 
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/china-high-speed-rail-collapse
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/speculation-investment-scandals-fraud.html
(The second one is only worth reading the first couple of quoted articles)


----------



## Restless

M-NL said:


> Then answer this: Why still buy much more expensive foreign equipment when you have all that R&D and could have done the same yourself within a few years? The reality seems to be that they knew no amount of research could bring them up to scratch within a few years and opted to buy foreign to quickly learn the tricks.
> 
> It takes time to transition from a 'copy and improve' industry to a 'design from scratch' industry. China is still somewhere in between and for realising that and acting accordingly China has nothing to be ashamed of. All industrialising nations have gone through this same process.


In 2009, Siemens only supplied components for 18% of the order value for the CRH380B. And they need the trains now, rather than in a few years.

This is what I've found that is readily available on R&D staffing levels.

Siemens Krefeld - 2000 staff in design, development and production of the Velaro
CSR Sifang Qingdao - 2000 R&D staff in + 7000 production staff for the CRH380A

My read on the situation is that Qingdao have gotten everything they wanted from Kawasaki and are now self-sufficient.
But Changchun are somewhat behind with Siemens, so to catch up, they built a comparable R&D facility 2years ago

And remember that the railway ministry values competition between them, because then they get better/cheaper trains.


----------



## Norge78

Both these issues were discussed years ago.

Even if the inselaffe didn't know it, yet.


----------



## foxmulder

Sopomon said:


> I don't doubt it. Why buy expensive foreign goods when you can make your own flavour of those technologies and produce it below cost?


huh?? China is exactly doing that. No one can claim any IP on 380A. And 380B/C is mostly produced by China.



Sopomon said:


> True, you could consider the 500 as next-gen, but it's little more than a test train, and strangely, I don't think anyone has seen it running in the year or so since it was unveiled? (I may be wrong)


Yeah, it is broken and not functioning since it is made in China.




Sopomon said:


> However, the rest isn't really all that irrelevant when only a few years after construction finished on some lines, entire sections of railway are having to be replaced due to rushed construction and poor quality.


This sounds to me more like a wish. We will see what will happen. Also I meant China has the technology and if it has it, it has it. We were discussing technology China possessed and developing. Not whether the lines will require repairs or not....



Sopomon said:


> This, and the lack of next gen tech, are actively limiting train speeds and preventing the goal of 380 km/h running from happening in the near future.


We will see this too. I least China has a target.


----------



## Restless

Norge78 said:


> Both these issues were discussed years ago.
> 
> Even if the inselaffe didn't know it, yet.


Yup. It's like deja vu for me


----------



## xinxingren

M-NL said:


> However with strong winds when the train is pushed sideways the wheel on the windward side runs with a slightly smaller radius and on the leeward side with a slightly bigger radius. It's like continuously driving through a corner without an actual corner. This causes both extra friction on the train and extra wear on the tracks. If the wind is strong enough the leeward side wheelflange may even touch the rail.


I'd figured that much. I just wondered if anybody had any numbers for crosswind operating limits for these trainsets. I'm assuming that the design process might have included some testing, because there's not only the eastern seabord typhoons, some of the desert winds in the north and west get fairly brisk.


----------



## Sopomon

foxmulder said:


> huh?? China is exactly doing that. No one can claim any IP on 380A. And 380B/C is mostly produced by China.
> 
> Yeah, it is broken and not functioning since it is made in China.
> 
> This sounds to me more like a wish. We will see what will happen. Also I meant China has the technology and if it has it, it has it. We were discussing technology China possessed and developing. Not whether the lines will require repairs or not....
> 
> We will see this too. I least China has a target.


Of course not. Nothing can prevent the 380A from being sold in China. Only if it were to be exported would an IP suit have any effect. Kawasaki does believe otherwise, though.

It may well have the technology, fantastic, great news. But if it can't be used, then it's all for nothing. Like a Ferrari in Jersey (40 mph speed limit), it's a bit of a waste of effort. At the same time, you're misunderstanding many of my points and I suggest you look over the debate again before replying.


----------



## hmmwv

Sopomon said:


> While I agree, my original argument was that such a rapid development of domestic tech, to the extent that trains can be labeled export-worthy, is very unfeasible, thus most of the tech even in the latest domestically designed sets is at least a tweaked version of what they had purchased a few years ago.
> 
> While I disagree with your second paragraph, there isn't much one can do but agree to disagree, as the affairs of the railways ministry and HSR are very murky and anyone outside of those circles can only guess. However, in terms of infrastructure quality I would point out a few articles that hint otherwise (Although I'm sure you're aware of these):
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/china-high-speed-rail-collapse
> http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/speculation-investment-scandals-fraud.html
> (The second one is only worth reading the first couple of quoted articles)


I agree that currently exporting Chinese HSR is difficult especially when facing competition from established brands, one of the reason is also Chinese HSR are not that much cheaper than foreign ones, part due to the increasing labor cost and part due to strong domestic demand. You are right that we as outsiders can only express our own opinions because ultimately we do not have access to all the facts. Regarding the articles I think the first one has been discussed in length here at the conclusion was that The Guardian was sensentionizing the story by using the term "collapse" since what really happened was that the foundation sunk for a few millimeters which actually exceeded the extremely tight quality control tolerance. If that's considered collapse I guess railways are collapsing everyday here in the US.




Sopomon said:


> However, the rest isn't really all that irrelevant when only a few years after construction finished on some lines, entire sections of railway are having to be replaced due to rushed construction and poor quality. This, and the lack of next gen tech, are actively limiting train speeds and preventing the goal of 380 km/h running from happening in the near future.


I'm curious as to which "entire sections" of HSR have been replaced due to poor construction quality? Also which next gen tech that China doesn't have to run the trains at 380km/h? China safely operated 350km/h trains for a couple of years, and everything was in place to start 380km/h service. The issues CRC faced regarding very high speed service were operating cost related, problems not yet conquered by Western OEMs.



M-NL said:


> Then answer this: Why still buy much more expensive foreign equipment when you have all that R&D and could have done the same yourself within a few years? The reality seems to be that they knew no amount of research could bring them up to scratch within a few years and opted to buy foreign to quickly learn the tricks.
> 
> It takes time to transition from a 'copy and improve' industry to a 'design from scratch' industry. China is still somewhere in between and for realising that and acting accordingly China has nothing to be ashamed of. All industrialising nations have gone through this same process.


They bought those foreign brands because they could not wait a few years. As I have pointed out a number of China HSR projects were set to become commercially available in 2004 when the decision was made to deploy nationwide HSR network. However they wanted to be able to finish most of the network while labor and land acquisition cost are still low, waiting a few years for the domestic trains to become available was not affordable.



Norge78 said:


> Both these issues were discussed years ago.
> 
> Even if the inselaffe didn't know it, yet.


Yeah I remember the discussions back then, but this is still a interesting topic and warrants periodical revisits.


----------



## hmmwv

Sopomon said:


> Of course not. Nothing can prevent the 380A from being sold in China. Only if it were to be exported would an IP suit have any effect. Kawasaki does believe otherwise, though.
> 
> It may well have the technology, fantastic, great news. But if it can't be used, then it's all for nothing. Like a Ferrari in Jersey (40 mph speed limit), it's a bit of a waste of effort. At the same time, you're misunderstanding many of my points and I suggest you look over the debate again before replying.


Honest question, when did Kawasaki raise IP issue with CSR about CRH380A? Japan never exported >350km/h very high speed train technology to China and I don't think China can make a 250km/h train (max tested speed 362km/h) go 380km/h (max tested speed 486km/h) while continuingly use the same Japanese technology. If China wants to export CRH2, sure Kawasaki is justified to be mad, but not so for the 380A.


----------



## foxmulder

Sopomon said:


> Of course not. Nothing can prevent the 380A from being sold in China. Only if it were to be exported would an IP suit have any effect. Kawasaki does believe otherwise, though.
> 
> It may well have the technology, fantastic, great news. But if it can't be used, then it's all for nothing. Like a Ferrari in Jersey (40 mph speed limit), it's a bit of a waste of effort. At the same time, you're misunderstanding many of my points and I suggest you look over the debate again before replying.


I think it is a little bit faster than "a ferrari in jersey"











As a side note, make your point clear if you can, what is your point? Do you think China does not have the technology or is not developing it or does not have the ip of the tech it has or its infrastructure is bad???? What is it  oo wait... all of above, right? 

When you spend 1 trillion dollar on a sector, you lead it. There are no two ways about it. No other country, even though their lines are much shorter, do not have high speed trains *averaging* 300km/h.


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## chornedsnorkack

admns said:


> Construction is completed in august 15 and expected to open in the end of this year or before the next spring festival.
> 
> Fare: Xiamen to Shenzhen full fare 190 yuan. Hangzhou and Shenzhen full fare is about 440 yuan.


What shall be the trip time Shenzhen-Shanghai?


----------



## China Hand

Wonderful! Soon it will be easy to go from Hong Kong to Shanghai by rail.

The distance will be ~1745kms, 250kph trains running at 200kph avg speeds, about 8 hours 45m.

The long distance legs of PDL in China are all timed to be done in one day, 10 hours 16m are the current max for many of the long train trips on the CRH high speed lines. Xian-Shenzhen, Xian-Guangzhou, Shanghai-Shenzhen, Beijing-Guangzhou, etc. are 8 to 9 hours. 

I really hope they can budget more money and get these lines up to 300/350 so that the times drop.


----------



## silent_dragon

China Hand said:


> Wonderful! Soon it will be easy to go from Hong Kong to Shanghai by rail.
> 
> The distance will be ~1745kms, 250kph trains running at 200kph avg speeds, about 8 hours 45m.
> 
> The long distance legs of PDL in China are all timed to be done in one day, 10 hours 16m are the current max for many of the long train trips on the CRH high speed lines. Xian-Shenzhen, Xian-Guangzhou, Shanghai-Shenzhen, Beijing-Guangzhou, etc. are 8 to 9 hours.
> 
> I really hope they can budget more money and get these lines up to 300/350 so that the times drop.


It is really more reasonable the coastal line shanghai to shenzhen to run up to 350 kph. The cities along this line are very rich and dynamic. Therefore will contribute much in economic integration and expansion.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> Wonderful! Soon it will be easy to go from Hong Kong to Shanghai by rail.


Only after the high speed railway Kowloon West-Futian-Longhua shall have opened for service.


China Hand said:


> The distance will be ~1745kms, 250kph trains running at 200kph avg speeds, about 8 hours 45m.


How shall this be possible? The distance Xiamen-Hongqiao is 1140 km now. And the fastest train, D3204, takes 8:24.


China Hand said:


> The long distance legs of PDL in China are all timed to be done in one day, 10 hours 16m are the current max for many of the long train trips on the CRH high speed lines. Xian-Shenzhen, Xian-Guangzhou, Shanghai-Shenzhen, Beijing-Guangzhou, etc. are 8 to 9 hours.


Longyan-Nanjing D3137/D3136 is 1566 km, and 12 hours 9 m.


----------



## bearb

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> A 250km/h line with CRH5's?


probably CRH1A or CRH3C


----------



## bearb

chornedsnorkack said:


> What shall be the trip time Shenzhen-Shanghai?


8 or 9 hours


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## xinxingren

bearb said:


> chornedsnorkack said:
> 
> 
> 
> What shall be the trip time Shenzhen-Shanghai?
> 
> 
> 
> 8 or 9 hours
Click to expand...

Hmmm, D3119 seems currently fastest Shanghai Hongqiao - Xiamen Bei 8h23'
It's gonna take another few hours to truck on down the coast to Shenzhen.
You can do Shanghai - Shenzhen now in 10 hours by changing trains at
Wuhan or Changsha.


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## Silly_Walks

xinxingren said:


> Hmmm, D3119 seems currently fastest Shanghai Hongqiao - Xiamen Bei 8h23'
> It's gonna take another few hours to truck on down the coast to Shenzhen.
> You can do Shanghai - Shenzhen now in 10 hours by changing trains at
> Wuhan or Changsha.


Perhaps a Shenzhen - Shanghai service along the coast will have fewer stops than the current Xiamen - Shanghai service along the coast?


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## xinxingren

Silly_Walks said:


> Perhaps a Shenzhen - Shanghai service along the coast will have fewer stops than the current Xiamen - Shanghai service along the coast?


Note that on this section of track such a train would also be e.g. Shenzhen - Linhai and/or Raoping - Shanghai. 
The intermediate stops are shared amongst the available trains to minimise leapfrogging.

Even G55 Beijing - Fuzhou slows down on the coast. It does Bj - Nanjing S 1023km, 6 stops, 235km/hr;
Nanjing S - Ningbo E 416km, 5 stops, 168km/hr; Ningbo - Fuzhou 572km, 7 stops, 148km/hr

The coastal line is providing a local service to places that never had trains before. 
If you want big city long distance, you're better taking the 350km/hr trunk lines.


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## doc7austin

I have made some calculations regarding the new timetable between Shanghai and the Pearl River Delta (Guangzhou/Shenzhen), once the new high speed lines are open. This would include the Xiamen - Shenzhen Coastal and the Hangzhou - Changsha lines.
Travelling via Changsha will be close to 2 hours faster than via Xiamen.

If one day the high speed line between Shenzhen and Hong Kong is completed, it is feasible to travel between Shanghai and Kowloon in less than 8 hours (via Changsha).



Code:


Shanghai - Guangzhou/Shenzhen via Changsha

G502

Shanghai Hongqiao - Hangzhou East   10:00 - 10:45   (159 km in 0 h 45 min)
Hangzhou East - Nanchang                 10:49 - n/a
Nanchang - Changsha South           n/a   - 14:29   (926 km in 3 h 40 min)
Changsha South - Guangzhou South    14:34 - 16:52   (707 km in 2 h 18 min)
Guangzhou South - Shenzhen North    16:56 - 17:25   (102 km in 0 h 29 min)


Shanghai - Shenzhen/Guangzhou via Xiamen

G500
Shanghai Hongqiao - Hangzhou East   09:00 - 09:45   (159 km in 0 h 45 min)
Hangzhou East - Ningbo East         09:49 - 10:42   (160 km in 0 h 53 min)
Ningbo East - Fuzhou South          10:45 - 13:56   (564 km in 3 h 11 min) * reduced by 20 min from the fastest train currently
Fuzhou South - Xiamen North         14:00 - 15:13   (226 km in 1 h 13 min) * reduced by 10 min from the fastest train currently
Xiamen North - Shantou              15:17 - n/a
Shantou - Shenzhen North            n/a   - 18:16   (502 km in 2 h 59 min)
Shenzhen North - Guangzhou South    18:20 - 18:49   (102 km in 0 h 29 min)

Summary:

Shanghai Hongqiao - Guangzhou South
- Air Distance 1209 km
- via Changsha 1792 km in 6 h 52 min  (avg. speed 261 km/h)
- via Xiamen   1713 km in 9 h 49 min  (avg. speed 175 km/h)

Shanghai Hongqiao - Shenzhen North
- Air Distance 1195 km
- via Changsha 1894 km in 7 h 25 min  (avg. speed 255 km/h)
- via Xiamen   1611 km in 9 h 16 min  (avg. speed 174 km/h)


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*D line speeds*

For comparison, let´s see the 250 km/h lines.

Beijing-Shenyang - part of the route is 160 km/h:
Fastest D trains - 4 equal at 4:48, with equally 3 stops, but different ones.
Slowest D train - D101, 5:03 again with 3 stops
D train with most stops - D9 with 6 stops and 5:01.

Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan:
Fastest D trains - 2 nonstops at 1:17
Slowest G train - G613, 1:25 with 1 stop

Jinan-Qingdao:
Fastest G train - G187, 2:33 with 1 stop
Slowest D train - D339, 3:03 with 5 stops
Maximal stops fastest - D6003, 5 stops in 2:51

Shanghai-Hefei:
Fastest G train - G576, 2:36 with 5 stops
Slowest D train - D5466, 4:08 with 12 stops

Shanghai-Wuhan:
Fastest - the lone G train G576, 4:56 with 6 stops
The second fastest - D3046, 5:41 with 7 stops
Slowest D train - D3022, 6:32 with 12 stops
Most stops - D3064, 6:15 with 14 stops

Nanjing-Wuhan:
Fastest - G577, 3:28 with 2 stops
Slowest - D3069, 4:08 with 6 stops
Most stops - D3065, 3:59 with 7 stops

Wuhan-Yichang:
Fastest - D5821, 1:44 with 1 stop
Slowest - D5882, 2:33 with 5 stops
Most stops - D5833, 6 stops in 2:21

Hangzhou-Fuzhou:
Fastest - G55, 4:57 with 7 stops
Slowest - D3207, 6:04 with 15 stops 
Fastest with most stops - D3111, 16 stops in 5:50

Ningbo-Fuzhou:
Fastest - D3103, 3:31 with 3 stops
Slowest - D3207, 4:41 with 12 stops
Fastest with most stops - 2 trains equally 13 stops in 4:22

Fuzhou-Xiamen:
Fastest - 3 trains equally 1:23 with 2 stops. These include Quanzhou, but the other varies.
Slowest - D6209, 2:18 with 6 stops
Fastest with most stops - D6331 and D6333, both 2:02 with 6 stops.

In view of these examples, how would it be reasonable to provide faster express services on the existing lines adhering to existing restrictions (200 km/h on 250 km/h lines)?


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> how would it be reasonable to provide faster express services on the existing lines adhering to existing restrictions (200 km/h on 250 km/h lines)?


What's an express service? IOW how big or important does an intermediate stop have to be to make it worth stopping there yet still be an "express" service? And the timetable needs careful massaging to make sure "slower" trains are stopped at a station to allow the express past.

Comparing D3205 and D3231 Ningbo - Xiamen Bei, suggests 3 minutes saving per intermediate stop eliminated. So an express Ningbo - Xiamen B. that stopped only at Taizhou, Wenzhou, Fuzhou, could in theory shave 40 minutes off present running time, provided all the slower trains were properly lined up at the passing points. I'd rather not think about the complications of crossing the slow trains onto the other track to pass ...


----------



## hmmwv

^^ Non-stop services between major cities, such as Nanjing-Wuhan, Shanghai-Wuhan, or Shanghai-Hefei.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> ^^ Non-stop services between major cities, such as Nanjing-Wuhan, Shanghai-Wuhan, or Shanghai-Hefei.


Not only.
But look at the G train lines.
1318 km Beijing-Shanghai - expresses include 1 stop (Nanjing, 4:48) and 2 stop services (Nanjing and Jinan, 4:55) - the 3 digit non-expresses are from 5:24 (6 stops) to 5:44 (8 stops)
2104 km Beijing-Guangzhou - express has 4 stops (Shijiazhuang, Zhengzhou, Wuhan, Changsha, 7:59), the non-expresses are 9:27 (12 stops) and 9:38 (14 stops)
Beijing-Xian - express G87 has 1 stop at 4:40, the G6xx non-expresses are from 5:27 (6 stops) to 5:59 (10 stops)
Guangzhou-Xian - express G96 has 3 stops (Changsha, Wuhan, Zhengzhou, 7:40), the G8xx non-expresses are from 8:51 (11 stops) to 9:09 (13 stops).

So - say there were express trains Hangzhou-Xiamen with stops at Ningbo, Wenzhou and Fuzhou, but skipping all others.
What would the reasonable time be?


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> Not only.
> So - say there were express trains Hangzhou-Xiamen with stops at Ningbo, Wenzhou and Fuzhou, but skipping all others.
> What would the reasonable time be?


My guesstimate 6h +- 10m.
Your examples from the G lines might not extrapolate cleanly because stops will be designed further apart than on a D line. Of course no train stops at all stations, but the running distance can affect the time a "slow" train has to wait for a "fast" train to pass. Also as traffic density builds up controlling mixed speed trains gets trickier.

Your example of Beijing - Xi'an is comparable in distance and number of stops to the coastal route. You didn't mention G2507 which has only 12 stops but takes 6h 31m having one 4 minute stop (Shijiazhuang), one 9 minute stop (Xingtai East), and one 18 minute stop (Zhengding Jichang). It does an average speed of 230 - 233 km/hr start to stop, on several sections of the trip, but only 187km/hr overall. 

There's the dilemma for railway managers, what's the balance between competing with flying on the Beijing - Xi'an route, or providing highspeed service to those cities from as many intermediate stops as practical?


----------



## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> Not only.
> But look at the G train lines.
> 1318 km Beijing-Shanghai - expresses include 1 stop (Nanjing, 4:48) and 2 stop services (Nanjing and Jinan, 4:55) - the 3 digit non-expresses are from 5:24 (6 stops) to 5:44 (8 stops)
> 2104 km Beijing-Guangzhou - express has 4 stops (Shijiazhuang, Zhengzhou, Wuhan, Changsha, 7:59), the non-expresses are 9:27 (12 stops) and 9:38 (14 stops)
> Beijing-Xian - express G87 has 1 stop at 4:40, the G6xx non-expresses are from 5:27 (6 stops) to 5:59 (10 stops)
> Guangzhou-Xian - express G96 has 3 stops (Changsha, Wuhan, Zhengzhou, 7:40), the G8xx non-expresses are from 8:51 (11 stops) to 9:09 (13 stops).
> 
> So - say there were express trains Hangzhou-Xiamen with stops at Ningbo, Wenzhou and Fuzhou, but skipping all others.
> What would the reasonable time be?


It's unfair that, the fastest train and slowest train, despite the large travel time difference, are priced the same :nuts:


----------



## big-dog

The "Big yellow duck" and HSR










by Luo Chunxiao


----------



## Dazon

what is thatt...? only a statue or something else? so weird.. :lol:


----------



## big-dog

^^ Rubber Duck 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_Duck_(sculpture)


----------



## chornedsnorkack

xinxingren said:


> My guesstimate 6h +- 10m.
> Your examples from the G lines might not extrapolate cleanly because stops will be designed further apart than on a D line. Of course no train stops at all stations,


But that is not "of course".
Compare the G line Wuhan-Guangzhou.
There are 14 stations in total between Wuhan and Guangzhou South (Wulongquan East and Lechang East are not open to any trains at all. When shall they open for service?).
The 2 D trains on the line, D2101 and D2103 DO exactly stop in all 14 stations. And take 6:01 and 6:31.
The G trains are:
4 express trains with 1 stop (Changsha) take 3:39 and 3:41.
The G trains start from 4 stop ones (from 4:03 to 4:17) and go on to 7 stop trains (4:33 and 4:37).


xinxingren said:


> There's the dilemma for railway managers, what's the balance between competing with flying on the Beijing - Xi'an route, or providing highspeed service to those cities from as many intermediate stops as practical?


Wuhan-Guangzhou manages to mix expresses, with the lone stop at Changsha, with all-stop trains.
Should Hangzhou-Xiamen do the same?


----------



## Huhu

What is with the stupid duck popping up everywhere...


----------



## silent_dragon

Huhu said:


> What is with the stupid duck popping up everywhere...


It looks cute. and people are seizing the oppurtunity fast in selling souvenirs and making fake copies.:cheers:


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> Wuhan-Guangzhou manages to mix expresses, with the lone stop at Changsha, with all-stop trains.
> Should Hangzhou-Xiamen do the same?


Well, for whatever reason there appear to already be no "stops all stations" trains on the coastal route. It's even worse, there are pairs of stations that have no direct train, it is necessary to go part way, get off, and continue to destination on another train. It may even be quicker to go past the intended stop, and get a train back from a more distant changing place. The first randomish pair I selected, Yandangshan - Hanjiang, is in this category.

It's just my ignorant bystander guess that the coastal route, built to 200-250km/hr standards, with closer together stations, will not be operated with high speed express as a priority, like the 350km/hr lines. Most web train searches for Hangzhou-Xiamen will also offer you K1209 ^^


----------



## chornedsnorkack

xinxingren said:


> Well, for whatever reason there appear to already be no "stops all stations" trains on the coastal route.





xinxingren said:


> It's just my ignorant bystander guess that the coastal route, built to 200-250km/hr standards, with closer together stations, will not be operated with high speed express as a priority,


Compare Tokaido Shinkansen, built to 270 km/h standards, with closer together stations. In 515 km Tokyo-Shin-Osaka, there are 15 intermediate stations, of which in the 342 km Tokyo-Nagoya there are 11. Well, there is an all-stop Kodama train to Shin-Osaka each hour, taking 3:54, of which 2:48 to Nagoya, and another all-stop Kodama terminating at Nagoya in 2:48 as well. Each such Kodama train to Shin-Osaka is passed by 8 Nozomi expresses and 2 Hikaris.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Nanchang-Fuzhou has an opening date!!!
http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/news32635.html
26th instant.
So in which month shall Xiamen-Shenzhen open?


----------



## big-dog

^^ Xiamen-Shenzhen testing run is scheduled in October so I guess the opening date is in December this year.


----------



## XAN_

big-dog said:


> It's unfair that, the fastest train and slowest train, despite the large travel time difference, are priced the same :nuts:


Well, slower trains may actully ''burn" more electricity, due to frequent stopping and starting.


----------



## Arnorian

Not if it has regenerative braking. It converts kinetic energy back to electric using motors as generators and returns it back to the grid. CRH380A returns up to 95% of the energy.


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> Nanchang-Fuzhou has an opening date!!!
> http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/news32635.html
> 26th instant.


_Please accept our apologies for fouling up ticket sales, these new trains have tangled our timetables._
http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/dgsxx/201309/t20130913_927.html


----------



## big-dog

September 12 2013

*Yingkou-Panjin HSR opens*

Yingkou-Panjin HSR, located in Liaoning Province, connects Harbin-Dalian HSR and Tianjin-Shenyang rail, 90km, design speed of 350kmph.

Construction: May 31 2009 ~ September 12 2013

The opening will cut the travel time between Beijing and Dalian from 7 hours 39 minites to 6 hours 4 minutes (don't have to pass Shenyang).

Map 


G55 Dalian-Tianjin, using the new HSR route


peoplerail.com


----------



## China Hand

Xian-Datong infrastructure installation continues. Tensioning of the caternaries is progressing with the removal and relocation of tensioning weights. Many poles, insulators, wires, guys, and supports on many lengthy stretches of the line.

Projected test runs are to commence ~January of 2014.


----------



## Sunfuns

Beijing-Dalian geography seems to be uniquely unfavourable for train. It's only 1 h hop over the water...


----------



## Silly_Walks

Sunfuns said:


> Beijing-Dalian geography seems to be uniquely unfavourable for train. It's only 1 h hop over the water...


Once the Beijing-Shenyang is finished and the whole trip can be done at 300 km/h, it shouldn't be too bad.


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

Sunfuns said:


> Beijing-Dalian geography seems to be uniquely unfavourable for train. It's only 1 h hop over the water...


...then build a bridge!


----------



## Obuyama

big-dog said:


> September 12 2013
> 
> *Yingkou-Panjin HSR opens*
> 
> Yingkou-Panjin HSR, located in Liaoning Province, connects Harbin-Dalian HSR and Tianjin-Shenyang rail, 90km, design speed of 350kmph.
> 
> Construction: May 31 2009 ~ September 12 2013
> 
> The opening will cut the travel time between Beijing and Dalian from 7 hours 39 minites to 6 hours 4 minutes (don't have to pass Shenyang).


Cool! Good work! Why China do not build HSR to Vladivostok? I want to change Sai Gengpeng for stupid Mr. Putin!


----------



## FM 2258

big-dog said:


> September 12 2013
> 
> *Yingkou-Panjin HSR opens*
> 
> Yingkou-Panjin HSR, located in Liaoning Province, connects Harbin-Dalian HSR and Tianjin-Shenyang rail, 90km, design speed of 350kmph.
> 
> Construction: May 31 2009 ~ September 12 2013
> 
> The opening will cut the travel time between Beijing and Dalian from 7 hours 39 minites to 6 hours 4 minutes (don't have to pass Shenyang).
> 
> Map
> <snip>
> 
> G55 Dalian-Tianjin, using the new HSR route
> 
> 
> peoplerail.com


Is that D55 or G55? I've never seen a CRH5 run a G route. Just curious


----------



## Obuyama

May be there are G & D on the same route.


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## chornedsnorkack

Obuyama said:


> Why China do not build HSR to Vladivostok?


A HSR to Haishenwei would also serve Mudanjiang and Suifenhe.

Is China building a HSR between Harbin and Mudanjiang?


----------



## feisibuke

chornedsnorkack said:


> A HSR to Haishenwei would also serve Mudanjiang and Suifenhe.
> 
> Is China building a HSR between Harbin and Mudanjiang?


HSR to Hunchun is under construction. I was travelling from Haishenwei and Shuangchengzi to Hunchun and Yanji last month, many sections has already completed or near complete seen from the nearby expressway.


----------



## Obuyama

Are there any info on it? Cause, local people told me before, that province wants to build only traditional railway. & there were no even passenger trains to Funchun. & there is good idea via Girin province, not via Haklonggong.


----------



## feisibuke

Obuyama said:


> Are there any info on it? Cause, local people told me before, that province wants to build only traditional railway. & there were no even passenger trains to Funchun. & there is good idea via Girin province, not via Haklonggong.


I only got a couple of images. The railway is 250 km/h design from Jilin to Hunchun.


----------



## Obuyama

Not clear, that is HSR, may of being cargo rail.


----------



## hmmwv

Obuyama said:


> Not clear, that is HSR, may of being cargo rail.


That's the Jilin-Huichun PDL, construction started in Nov 2011 and is scheduled to be completed by Oct 2014. Design speed 250km/h with upgrade option for 300km/h. Its Jilin-Dunhua section is suppose to open next month but is delayed.


----------



## Obuyama

hmmwv said:


> That's the Jilin-Huichun PDL, construction started in Nov 2011 and is scheduled to be completed by Oct 2014. Design speed 250km/h with upgrade option for 300km/h. Its Jilin-Dunhua section is suppose to open next month but is delayed.


Any official proves? Cause no info found. Funchun (Hunchun) is like a village compared to ordinary Chinese towns. Yonggei (Yanji, http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/延吉市) - is good as to be connected, as I know, 've been there in early 2000 years. Mt. Baktu - is tourist attractions district.


----------



## :jax:

Sunfuns said:


> Beijing-Dalian geography seems to be uniquely unfavourable for train. It's only 1 h hop over the water...


Dalian is almost perfectly at the midpoint between Beijing and Seoul, but it would be hard for the city to benefit directly from that. 1h to Seoul or Beijing is short for an airhop (long waits at airport, much fuel in takeoff and landing), and water and North Korea is in the way for rail. Sure, it would make a natural stop on a Tianjin-Dalian-Incheon boat line, but the current boats are slow and not very profitable.

As for bridges/tunnels, Lüshun (Port Arthur) - Penglai would be the one to beat across Bohai.


----------



## hkskyline

*Low-profile Bombardier riding the rails to success*
11 September 2013
Copyright 2013 China Daily Information Company. All Rights Reserved.










Though President of Bombardier China, Zhang Jianwei is a low-profile businessman. He is rarely in the limelight as he leads the company from strength to strength.

A Canadian manufacturer of both trains and planes, Bombardier Inc is recognized as "one of the most successful foreign companies in the industry" yet it rarely publicizes itself in China.

"We speak less and do more," said Zhang, a native of Shandong province in East China.

The down-to-earth attitude has been the foundation of the company's fast track to success in the world's second-largest economy.

Zhang was sent to develop Bombardier's rail business in China in 1999, four years after he joined the Montreal-based corporation and 12 years after he had left China.

"At that time, I did not have any employee, or even an office in the first months. So I spent days negotiating with customers and nights calling my colleagues back in Canada in my 6-year-old daughter's bedroom.

"My daughter complained because she could not fall asleep. But when I finally moved out my 'office' in her room several months later, she came to complain that she could not fall asleep at night without my telephone conversations in French with colleagues back in Montreal, which had already become her lullaby," said Zhang.

Fourteen years later, Bombardier has four manufacturing joint ventures and seven wholly owned enterprises with more than 4,000 employees across the country, and signs billions of dollars in contracts yearly.

By July, it had already won 13 railway orders this year with more contracts expected, Zhang said. The deals were inked despite the fact the Ministry of Railways, Bombardier's major customer, was dismantled in early 2013.

"China has a huge market for rail transport. So the dismantlement has little impact on our performance as long as we can do well our homework of understanding customer needs and coming up with the solutions."

Zhang stressed the importance of "homework", noting that at least 50 percent of the problems in the Sino-foreign cooperation are caused by miscommunication and misunderstanding instead of conflicts of interest.

'Local roots' strategy

"It is difficult to understand the business practices if we use a Western way," he said. "The culture, the political context, and the business practices are different, let alone the languages."

That was why Bombardier established its "local roots" strategy in 2009, said Zhang. "We form our local team and train local talent. With the local team, we can understand better customer needs and respond faster to market changes."

Along with localization, Zhang said the most important factors for success in China are his company's advanced technology, proven product and respect to commitment.

He added that transfer of technology "is a hot topic in the cooperation between Chinese and Western companies".

"But our cooperation with Chinese partners is much beyond a simple technology transfer. Instead, we have been jointly developing world-class technology with our Chinese partner."

Zhang gave a long list of technology co-development projects in China including the very high-speed train CRH380D produced with Chinese manufacturer CSR in Qingdao, the CSeries fuselage with Aviation Industry Corp of China in Shenyang and the C919 and CSeries with Commercial Aircraft Corp of China in Shanghai.

"Frankly speaking, in the field of railways, Chinese customers are more demanding than their Western peers, but the most important for us is to do well our homework and satisfy their requests."

Zhang admitted that the competition in China is tougher. "We are facing more challenges here than in the international markets, both technically and commercially. But the market is big enough for the coexistence of many players.

"There are so many potential business opportunities, we work very hard to develop the opportunities by focusing on supplying better solutions to the customers."

Partners and rivals

He also talked about cooperation with the competitors.

"In the rail transportation industry, our main partners are also our main competitors. Cooperation and competition coexist.

"For example, both (rail equipment makers) CSR and CNR are our main partners in our joint ventures and in our consortium. They are also our most important competitors in China.

"But we work very well together, we compete with each other, and we seek for complementary advantages, common interests and win-win results in most cases."

Looking ahead, Zhang is very confident in Bombardier's sustainable success in China.

"The market is big - the opportunities are there. We need to understand better and better our customers' needs and focus on satisfying their requests.

"We have a very strong local management team, we have our local technical talent and we have our facilities in China. We are ready to face more challenges."


----------



## China Hand

undefined


----------



## hmmwv

Obuyama said:


> Any official proves? Cause no info found. Funchun (Hunchun) is like a village compared to ordinary Chinese towns. Yonggei (Yanji, http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/延吉市) - is good as to be connected, as I know, 've been there in early 2000 years. Mt. Baktu - is tourist attractions district.


http://hc.jl.cn/a/20110804/526.htm

http://hc.jl.cn/a/20130330/2196.htm


----------



## big-dog

by @chineserailway


----------



## Obuyama

hmmwv said:


> http://hc.jl.cn/a/20110804/526.htm
> 
> http://hc.jl.cn/a/20130330/2196.htm


Funny, slim (simple) characters & mainland Chinese, "that said many, but nothing, main idea is some imagine by yourself".  Can anybody help?


----------



## China Hand

undefined


----------



## hmmwv

Obuyama said:


> Funny, slim (simple) characters & mainland Chinese, "that said many, but nothing, main idea is some imagine by yourself".  Can anybody help?


???


----------



## dao123

Train tickets are hard to purchase around this period because of the mid-autumn holiday and the national day holiday.


----------



## Obuyama

hmmwv said:


> ???


Used to traditional Chinese.


----------



## xinxingren

Tickets now on sale for ChangFu line (Nanchang - Fuzhou) and YongPu (Yongtai - Putian)
http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/zxdt/201309/t20130920_952.html


----------



## FM 2258

I saw a someone mention the Shenzhen-Dongguan-Guangzhou Regional rapid transit line on another thread and was curious about where it would be built. 
Poking around online I found this and wanted to share. So now there will be like 4 fast ways to get from Hong Kong to Guangzhou. 3 by rail and 1 by air. 

http://www.legco.gov.hk/yr06-07/chinese/panels/tp/tp_rdp/papers/tp_rdp0105cb1-573-4-c.pdf


----------



## big-dog

HSR passing Hankou of Wuhan, Hubei Province



dean87 said:


> CRH5A highspeed train was approaching Hankou station by Qin, Zong, on Flickr
> 
> 
> CRH5A highspeed train was leaving Hankou station by Qin, Zong, on Flickr
> 
> 
> CRH5A highspeed train (dual units) was leaving Hankou station by Qin, Zong, on Flickr
> 
> 
> CRH2A highspeed train (dual units) was running on up line of Wuhan-Yichang railway to enter Hankou station by Qin, Zong, on Flickr
> 
> 
> Empty CRH5A highspeed train was passing by Hankou passenger car depot with the destination of Wuchang station by Qin, Zong, on Flickr
> 
> 
> CRH5A highspeed train (dual units) was running on up line of Wuhan-Yichang railway to enter Hankou station by Qin, Zong, on Flickr
> 
> 
> CRH5A highspeed train (dual units) was running in downtown of Hankou to enter Wuhan-Yichang railway by Qin, Zong, on Flickr


----------



## FM 2258

^^

I love these shots, following the train through the city. China's rail network is excellent and just keeps getting better!


----------



## stingstingsting

^^^

Amazing pictures! And so many blue roofs!


----------



## Restless

*Speedy Trains Transform China*

CHANGSHA, China — The cavernous rail station here for China’s new high-speed trains was nearly deserted when it opened less than four years ago.

Not anymore. Practically every train is sold out, although they leave for cities all over the country every several minutes. Long lines snake back from ticket windows under the 50-foot ceiling of white, gently undulating steel that floats cloudlike over the departure hall. An ambitious construction program will soon nearly double the size of the 16-platform station.

Just five years after China’s high-speed rail system opened, it is carrying nearly twice as many passengers each month as the country’s domestic airline industry. With traffic growing 28 percent a year for the last several years, China’s high-speed rail network will handle more passengers by early next year than the 54 million people a month who board domestic flights in the United States.

continued
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/24/b...huge-success-for-china.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Hilda Wang said:


> *Speedy Trains Transform China*
> 
> CHANGSHA, China — The cavernous rail station here for China’s new high-speed trains was nearly deserted when it opened less than four years ago.
> 
> Not anymore. Practically every train is sold out, although they leave for cities all over the country every several minutes. Long lines snake back from ticket windows under the 50-foot ceiling of white, gently undulating steel that floats cloudlike over the departure hall. An ambitious construction program will soon nearly double the size of the 16-platform station.
> 
> continued
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/24/b...huge-success-for-china.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0


What is the bottleneck at Changsha now? 

Not enough platforms at Changsha Station to add more trains, not enough trains completed to put into service, or not enough space on railway lines to run more trains?


----------



## timeandspace

*The New York Times*

*Despite a Deadly Crash, Rail System Has Good Safety Record*




*By KEITH BRADSHER*

*Published: September 23, 2013 *


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> What is the bottleneck at Changsha now?
> 
> Not enough platforms at Changsha Station to add more trains, not enough trains completed to put into service, or not enough space on railway lines to run more trains?


Given that they're building more platforms, that would likely be the issue.

At the moment, it looks like there are 80 trains per day, so the headways are about every 10minutes.

But the signalling system should be able to cope with a train every 5minutes.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> Given that they're building more platforms, that would likely be the issue.


When is Changsha-Nanchang-Hangzhou high speed railway due to open?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> When is Changsha-Nanchang-Hangzhou high speed railway due to open?


It's set to be finished and start testing by the end of next year, so opening will be sometime in 2015.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> At the moment, it looks like there are 80 trains per day, so the headways are about every 10minutes.


On the route Changsha-Wuhan (347 km) I count 57 now:
1 at 7:30
1 at 8:10
3 during 9:xx
3 during 10:xx
4 during 11:xx
6 during 12:xx
7 during 13:xx
5 during 14:xx
5 during 15:xx
5 during 16:xx
4 during 17:xx
4 during 18:xx
3 during 19:xx
4 during 20:xx
2 during 21:xx


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> On the route Changsha-Wuhan (347 km) I count 57 now:
> 1 at 7:30
> 1 at 8:10
> 3 during 9:xx
> 3 during 10:xx
> 4 during 11:xx
> 6 during 12:xx
> 7 during 13:xx
> 5 during 14:xx
> 5 during 15:xx
> 5 during 16:xx
> 4 during 17:xx
> 4 during 18:xx
> 3 during 19:xx
> 4 during 20:xx
> 2 during 21:xx


Did you count direct Wuhan-Guangzhou trains that don't stop at Changsha, but which still have to pass the station?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

^^

Such trains once existed, but stopped long ago. All trains Guangzhou-Wuhan stop in Changsha - expresses stop only there, all non-expresses have at least 2 more stops.

For comparison, there are 56 trains Taipei-Zuoying (339 km):
2 during 6:xx
6 during 7:xx
6 during 8:xx
6 during 9:xx
5 during 10:xx
3 during 11:xx
4 during 12:xx
4 during 13:xx
4 during 14:xx
5 during 15:xx
5 during 16:xx
5 during 17:xx
6 during 18:xx
6 during 19:xx
5 during 20:xx
4 during 21:xx
1 at 22:12
though many of them run on some weekdays only, and they do not all run at any weekday.
There are also 147 daily trains Nagoya-Tokyo (342 km).


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Can this line reach the capacity and frequency like Japan? I thought 57 seemed like a lot yet 147 is like wow-a lot. :cheers:


----------



## xinxingren

The extra platforms will be not only for eastbound Changsha-Nanchang-Shanghai traffic,
but the track layout must be devised for these trains to continue westwards Changsha-Guiyang-Kunming.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Nagoya-Tokyo:
6 trains during 6:xx
9 trains during 7:xx
10 trains during 8:xx
10 trains during 9:xx
10 trains during 10:xx
9 trains during 11:xx
8 trains during 12:xx
8 trains during 13:xx
8 trains during 14:xx
8 trains during 15:xx
9 trains during 16:xx
10 trains during 17:xx
10 trains during 18:xx
10 trains during 19:xx
8 trains during 20:xx
5 trains during 21:xx
1 train at 22:10.

Which way shall Nanchang-Guiyang railway cross Guangzhou-Wuhan railway at Changsha? Specifically, which turns shall require reversal of trains, and which shall not?


----------



## hmmwv

I'm surprised at how few trains run during the supposedly morning rush hour, only 8 trains between 7:30 and 11:00?! They could easily double the current 57 trains by running more frequent trains during those hours, and extend service time to 0600 and 2300.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> I'm surprised at how few trains run during the supposedly morning rush hour, only 8 trains between 7:30 and 11:00?!


Compare Guangzhou-Changsha:
7 trains during 7:xx
5 trains during 8:xx
7 trains during 9:xx
7 trains during 10:xx
5 trains during 11:xx
7 trains during 12:xx
5 trains during 13:xx
5 trains during 14:xx
5 trains during 15:xx
4 trains during 16:xx
5 trains during 17:xx
4 trains during 18:xx
2 trains during 19:xx
1 train at 20:25
1 train at 21:00
total 70 trains
Out of the morning rush hour 7 trains between 7:00 and 7:53, 4 arrive at Changsha 9:40 to 9:56, 2 at 10:06 and 10:34 and 1 at 12:11. Out of these 4, just 2 continue to Wuhan - 1 terminates at Changsha, and 1 (G6132) for some reason terminates at Yueyang East!

So for some reason Changsha-Wuhan is not a popular trip to begin at Changsha - few trains originate at Changsha during convenient morning rush hour.


----------



## coth

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Can this line reach the capacity and frequency like Japan? I thought 57 seemed like a lot yet 147 is like wow-a lot. :cheers:


Tokyo - Nagoya is just 342 km. Connects 35mln city with 8mln city, with at least two 1mln+ in between. That's why it has 3 min frequency in peak hour. And that's why they want to build a separate express line - Chuo Shinkansen.

Guangzhou - Wuhan is almost 1000 km. It would be more correct to compare Tokyo - Nagoya with Hong Kong - Guangzhou.


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> Which way shall Nanchang-Guiyang railway cross Guangzhou-Wuhan railway at Changsha? Specifically, which turns shall require reversal of trains, and which shall not?


Disclaimer: I haven't been on the ground to check, Google Earth is showing tracks from Nanchang and eastwards come thru Pinxiang and Liling and swing northwards, passing some 20km to the east of Zhuzhou, then doing a 180 degree curve to come into Changsha South station from the north, and on the east side of the Beijing-Guangzhou line (unless they jump thru a lot of points hno. A train eg. Shanghai-Kunming would continue southwards thru Changsha then about 11km south of the station the line peels off the east side and curves out then westwards over the N-S line.

So any train needing to reverse would be Nanchang to the North, or Guiyang to the South.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

coth said:


> Tokyo - Nagoya is just 342 km. Connects 35mln city with 8mln city, with at least two 1mln+ in between. That's why it has 3 min frequency in peak hour. And that's why they want to build a separate express line - Chuo Shinkansen.
> 
> Guangzhou - Wuhan is almost 1000 km. It would be more correct to compare Tokyo - Nagoya with Hong Kong - Guangzhou.


Hong Kong-Guangzhou is under 200 km. 184 km by slow speed railway and 142 km by high speed railway.

Shanghai-Nanjing is 295 km. Shanghai municipality alone is under 24 million people, but Shanghai plus the prefecture level city of Suzhou would be over 34 millions, on a similar area as the Tokyo capital and the three prefectures.

On Shanghai-Nanjing, two high speed railways already exist.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

For Shanghai-Nanjing, is the conventional rail line still used for passenger rail? There are some older Youtube videos showing CRH1 and CRH2's running on the conventional line before the 350km/h lines were completed. I wonder if CRH trains still run on that conventional line if passenger rail service exists.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> For Shanghai-Nanjing, is the conventional rail line still used for passenger rail?


Certainly.
I count:
3 Z trains
7 T trains
35 K trains
3 number trains


FM 2258 said:


> There are some older Youtube videos showing CRH1 and CRH2's running on the conventional line before the 350km/h lines were completed. I wonder if CRH trains still run on that conventional line if passenger rail service exists.


Not sure. There is a train number D306, that departs Shanghai at 22:00 and arrives in Nanjing at 00:31, and goes on via Zhengzhou to Xian North. Is it using the slow speed railway or a high speed railway between Shanghai and Nanjing?


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> Compare Guangzhou-Changsha:
> 7 trains during 7:xx
> 5 trains during 8:xx
> 7 trains during 9:xx
> 7 trains during 10:xx
> 5 trains during 11:xx
> 7 trains during 12:xx
> 5 trains during 13:xx
> 5 trains during 14:xx
> 5 trains during 15:xx
> 4 trains during 16:xx
> 5 trains during 17:xx
> 4 trains during 18:xx
> 2 trains during 19:xx
> 1 train at 20:25
> 1 train at 21:00
> total 70 trains
> Out of the morning rush hour 7 trains between 7:00 and 7:53, 4 arrive at Changsha 9:40 to 9:56, 2 at 10:06 and 10:34 and 1 at 12:11. Out of these 4, just 2 continue to Wuhan - 1 terminates at Changsha, and 1 (G6132) for some reason terminates at Yueyang East!
> 
> So for some reason Changsha-Wuhan is not a popular trip to begin at Changsha - few trains originate at Changsha during convenient morning rush hour.


I'm guessing that it might be faster for most people to drive for 2-3hours directly between Changsha-Wuhan, rather than take the train and change on either end.


----------



## Restless

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> For Shanghai-Nanjing, is the conventional rail line still used for passenger rail? There are some older Youtube videos showing CRH1 and CRH2's running on the conventional line before the 350km/h lines were completed. I wonder if CRH trains still run on that conventional line if passenger rail service exists.


I suspect that there are still a few passenger services left, but that it is mostly used for freight trains now.


----------



## Restless

coth said:


> Tokyo - Nagoya is just 342 km. Connects 35mln city with 8mln city, with at least two 1mln+ in between. That's why it has 3 min frequency in peak hour. And that's why they want to build a separate express line - Chuo Shinkansen.
> 
> Guangzhou - Wuhan is almost 1000 km. It would be more correct to compare Tokyo - Nagoya with Hong Kong - Guangzhou.


I actually see the Changsha-Guangzhou/HK section of the HSR as comparable to the Tokaido Shinkansen between Tokyo-Osaka, and therefore potentially being overloaded in the future.

The 700km Changsha-Guangzhou/HK section of the HSR covers a lot more people when you look at similar journey times.

Eg.

It will run from Hong Kong, through Shenzhen, Dongguan and Guangzhou at the southern end. There are in excess of 40million people within 30minutes of these stations via public transport. That is more than Greater Tokyo.

The journey time from Guangzhou-Changsha is 2h18minutes which is slightly faster than Tokyo-Osaka.

Changsha is a city with 7million people which is about the same as Osaka.

Then there are lots cities inbetween like:

Zhuzhou: 3million
Hengyang: 7million
Leiyang: 1million
Qingyuan: 3million
etc (10+ stations)

And the cities along these stations will grow larger and also richer because of the the presence of the HSR.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> I'm guessing that it might be faster for most people to drive for 2-3hours directly between Changsha-Wuhan, rather than take the train and change on either end.


It is 347 km. Compare the 342 km Tokyo-Nagoya and 339 km Taipei-Zuoying. Are private cars serious competitors of HSR on these routes?


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> It is 347 km. Compare the 342 km Tokyo-Nagoya and 339 km Taipei-Zuoying. Are private cars serious competitors of HSR on these routes?


Think about it.

A door-to-door journey is around 2h30min to 3hours by car.

A door-to-door train journey could take around the same time.

The HSR sweet spot generally starts at a 3-4hour car journey and stops at around 1000km where it is faster to take a plane.
But given the level of congestion in Chinese airspace, the distance is longer as we can see on the Beijing to Shanghai route where travellers are completely fed up with air delays.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> Think about it.
> 
> A door-to-door journey is around 2h30min to 3hours by car.


2:30 by car for 340 km?


----------



## ampera00

chornedsnorkack said:


> 2:30 by car for 340 km?


They MUST ONLY drive those expensive German cars in that route ..... or they drive like a maniac.


----------



## saiho

Restless said:


> *Speedy Trains Transform China*
> 
> CHANGSHA, China — The cavernous rail station here for China’s new high-speed trains was nearly deserted when it opened less than four years ago.
> 
> Not anymore. Practically every train is sold out, although they leave for cities all over the country every several minutes. Long lines snake back from ticket windows under the 50-foot ceiling of white, gently undulating steel that floats cloudlike over the departure hall. An ambitious construction program will soon nearly double the size of the 16-platform station.
> 
> Just five years after China’s high-speed rail system opened, it is carrying nearly twice as many passengers each month as the country’s domestic airline industry. With traffic growing 28 percent a year for the last several years, China’s high-speed rail network will handle more passengers by early next year than the 54 million people a month who board domestic flights in the United States.
> 
> continued
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/24/b...huge-success-for-china.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0


What a huge shift in tone, rewind 5 years ago and this is the complete opposite of what most western media would say.


----------



## doc7austin

> For Shanghai-Nanjing, is the conventional rail line still used for passenger rail? There are some older Youtube videos showing CRH1 and CRH2's running on the conventional line before the 350km/h lines were completed. I wonder if CRH trains still run on that conventional line if passenger rail service exists.


There are three railway lines between Shanghai and Nanjing:

1) Traditional Jinghu Railway, used by CRH2 trains for overnight routes
2) Huning High-Speed Railway (opened 2010), used for trains, mainly to Hefei/Wuhan
3) Jinghu High-Speed Railway (opened 2011), used for trains, mainly to Beiing, Jinan, Qingdao


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> I actually see the Changsha-Guangzhou/HK section of the HSR as comparable to the Tokaido Shinkansen between Tokyo-Osaka, and therefore potentially being overloaded in the future.


There are 170 million people in Guangdong and Hunan combined. But the route between Guangzhou and Changsha is not so urbanized as Tokaido corridor.


Restless said:


> The 700km Changsha-Guangzhou/HK section of the HSR covers a lot more people when you look at similar journey times.


763 km Changsha to Kowloon West.


Restless said:


> Eg.
> 
> It will run from Hong Kong, through Shenzhen, Dongguan and Guangzhou at the southern end. There are in excess of 40million people within 30minutes of these stations via public transport.


It runs through Dongguan, but not through Dongguan station. Its only station in Dongguan is Humen.
Which public transport serves Humen station? And how many people are within 30 minutes of Humen station?


Restless said:


> That is more than Greater Tokyo.


Yes, and Shinkansen has 5 stations in less than 60 km in Tokyo. Of which 3 are in an 11 km stretch.
Getting to destinations between these 3 is not a problem because that 11 km corridor is shared by 3 railways. On Tokaido side, Tokaido main line has the additional station of Shimbashi, and Yamanote has 3 more in these 6,8 km. On Tohoku side, Yamanote line has 3 stations in 3,6 km to Ueno, and Tohoku main line is followed by Shinkansen to Omiya, with 4 intermediate stations on 26,7 km.
There is a 47 km distance between Guangzhou North and Guangzhou South. Which other railways follow that HSR stretch, and how many stations do they have there?


Restless said:


> The journey time from Guangzhou-Changsha is 2h18minutes which is slightly faster than Tokyo-Osaka.


That 2:18 is nonstop. No nonstops exist on Tokyo-Osaka - all of them stop at Shinagawa, Shin-Yokohama, Nagoya and Kyoto. Trains Guangzhou-Changsha that do make 4 intermediate stops take at least 2:47.


Restless said:


> Changsha is a city with 7million people which is about the same as Osaka.
> 
> Then there are lots cities inbetween like:
> 
> Zhuzhou: 3million
> Hengyang: 7million
> Leiyang: 1million
> Qingyuan: 3million
> etc (10+ stations)


Not 10+! Just 9:
Zhuzhou West
Hengshan West
Hengyang East
Leiyang West
Chenzhou West
Shaoguan
Yingde West
Qingyuan
Guangzhou West
Would be 10 if Lechang East were completed, but even then not 10+.
These 9 stations are in 5 prefecture level cities:
Zhuzhou
Hengyang
Chenzhou
Shaoguan
Qingyuan
Also, Leiyang, Yingde and Lechang are county level cities in prefecture level cities of Hengyang, Qingyuan and Shaoguan respectively.


Restless said:


> And the cities along these stations will grow larger and also richer because of the the presence of the HSR.


Not if Hengyang has 7 million people.
That is the population of the prefecture level city - on 15 279 square km of countryside it makes just 470 per square km.

Most of these 7 millions live far, far away from any of the 3 stations there.

Compare Tokaido/Sanyo Shinkansen.
Tokyo-Aioi is 621 km, like Guangzhou-Changsha.
Over that distance, I count 19 intermediate stations, compared to the 9 of Guangzhou-Changsha.
Out of these 21, 17 are shared with Tokaido/Sanyo main line. Anyone wishing to travel to a place between Shinkansen stations can get off at a nearby Shinkansen station and connect to a zairaisen station in the same station building.

Which stations of Guangzhou-Changsha high speed railway besides Guangzhou North are shared with slow speed railway?


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> 2:30 by car for 340 km?


Lots of people do that in the UK and in Germany.


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> There are 170 million people in Guangdong and Hunan combined. But the route between Guangzhou and Changsha is not so urbanized as Tokaido corridor.
> 
> 763 km Changsha to Kowloon West.
> 
> It runs through Dongguan, but not through Dongguan station. Its only station in Dongguan is Humen.
> Which public transport serves Humen station? And how many people are within 30 minutes of Humen station?
> 
> Yes, and Shinkansen has 5 stations in less than 60 km in Tokyo. Of which 3 are in an 11 km stretch.
> Getting to destinations between these 3 is not a problem because that 11 km corridor is shared by 3 railways. On Tokaido side, Tokaido main line has the additional station of Shimbashi, and Yamanote has 3 more in these 6,8 km. On Tohoku side, Yamanote line has 3 stations in 3,6 km to Ueno, and Tohoku main line is followed by Shinkansen to Omiya, with 4 intermediate stations on 26,7 km.
> There is a 47 km distance between Guangzhou North and Guangzhou South. Which other railways follow that HSR stretch, and how many stations do they have there?
> 
> That 2:18 is nonstop. No nonstops exist on Tokyo-Osaka - all of them stop at Shinagawa, Shin-Yokohama, Nagoya and Kyoto. Trains Guangzhou-Changsha that do make 4 intermediate stops take at least 2:47.
> 
> Not 10+! Just 9:
> Zhuzhou West
> Hengshan West
> Hengyang East
> Leiyang West
> Chenzhou West
> Shaoguan
> Yingde West
> Qingyuan
> Guangzhou West
> Would be 10 if Lechang East were completed, but even then not 10+.
> These 9 stations are in 5 prefecture level cities:
> Zhuzhou
> Hengyang
> Chenzhou
> Shaoguan
> Qingyuan
> Also, Leiyang, Yingde and Lechang are county level cities in prefecture level cities of Hengyang, Qingyuan and Shaoguan respectively.
> 
> Not if Hengyang has 7 million people.
> That is the population of the prefecture level city - on 15 279 square km of countryside it makes just 470 per square km.
> 
> Most of these 7 millions live far, far away from any of the 3 stations there.
> 
> Compare Tokaido/Sanyo Shinkansen.
> Tokyo-Aioi is 621 km, like Guangzhou-Changsha.
> Over that distance, I count 19 intermediate stations, compared to the 9 of Guangzhou-Changsha.
> Out of these 21, 17 are shared with Tokaido/Sanyo main line. Anyone wishing to travel to a place between Shinkansen stations can get off at a nearby Shinkansen station and connect to a zairaisen station in the same station building.
> 
> Which stations of Guangzhou-Changsha high speed railway besides Guangzhou North are shared with slow speed railway?


Remember that we're talking about whether the HSR will ever become overloaded, so we have to look to the future when the population has increased and also has become 95% urbanised.

Any developed city with 1million people will have transport connections - even if it is only local buses - which can cover the majority of the population within 30minutes.

And you're missing the point of the comparison. It's not really about distance, but the economic geography.

Tokyo has 35million people and is the primate city for all of Japan (127million).
It dominates the country from an economic, industrial, political, educational, media perspective.
Tokyo also fulfils the function of a regional centre for the Eastern half of the country, so there isn't very much from Tokyo to Aomori.

===

Now, Guangdong province + HK have a similar population to the island of Honshu, which is where Tokyo and Osaka are located.

And the Hong Kong to Guangzhou agglomeration has a similar population to Tokyo, and also dominate the rest of the area from an economic, industrial, political, educational, media perspective.

Now, this is where the difference starts.

Osaka lives in the shadow of Tokyo, because Japan is a centralised unitary state, so Tokyo makes the decisions for Osaka.
So Osaka functions as a regional centre for the Western half of the country, and only has some industries and institutions situated there.

In comparison, Changsha is the capitol for Hunan province with its 66million people. Note that the UK and France have a similar population as Hunan Province, but are not as densely populated. Osaka/Western Japan is somewhat smaller.
And Changsha is not just a regional centre like Osaka, but is already a primate city which is well on its way to creating more world-class centres of excellence in various fields like London/Paris.

So once Changsha and the province develop, I expect to see something similar to London and Paris with 8million+ people.
Changsha can also make all of its own political decisions and policies - unlike Osaka. Of course, this is subject to distant light-touch oversight from the Central Government in Beijing like all the other provinces in China.

===

So this is why I use the comparison of Tokyo-Osaka, because Changsha-Guangzhou/HK should end up busier once it develops.
This due to factors such as population, journey times, lower ticket prices and the need for individuals to travel between their respective centres of expertise.

===

As for journey times, I say they're comparable because if a train is already full, does it matter if a train makes a stop or not?

What matters is the overall journey time, how reliable the service is, and its frequency. I suspect that we'll only be looking at a maximum of a 10minute wait instead of 5minutes due to eventual service patterns. 

===


As for passengers transferring to slow speed tracks, that doesn't apply to China because all the spare capacity on the slow tracks is needed to provide additional freight capacity.

Commuter services in Japan are generally loss-making like everywhere else in the world. But they run because they have spare capacity on the old line, and can cross-subsidise from profitable long-distance services.

Studies have also shown that buses are normally much cheaper, more flexible and actually have faster door-to-door journey times for most people.
And for longer commuter distances, it's better to build new subway-type lines rather than run commuter train services.

So this is what many Chinese cities will be developing in the future.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> Remember that we're talking about whether the HSR will ever become overloaded, so we have to look to the future


And my point is that the HSR is overloaded already.


Restless said:


> when the population has increased


Not expected to increase over 5% from the present.


Restless said:


> and also has become 95% urbanised.


Just 52 or so % now.


Restless said:


> Any developed city with 1million people will have transport connections - even if it is only local buses - which can cover the majority of the population within 30minutes.


Not necessarily the case for a city of 8 millions. Yes, Humen is a town (not city) of 640 000 people over 178 square km, and neighbouring Changan (the most populous town) has 660 000 people over 98 square km. So that makes 1,3 millions over 276 square km. But how long would it take from Humen station to Guancheng district?


Restless said:


> And you're missing the point of the comparison. It's not really about distance, but the economic geography.
> 
> Tokyo has 35million people and is the primate city for all of Japan (127million).
> It dominates the country from an economic, industrial, political, educational, media perspective.
> Tokyo also fulfils the function of a regional centre for the Eastern half of the country, so there isn't very much from Tokyo to Aomori.
> 
> ===
> 
> Now, Guangdong province + HK have a similar population to the island of Honshu, which is where Tokyo and Osaka are located.
> 
> And the Hong Kong to Guangzhou agglomeration has a similar population to Tokyo, and also dominate the rest of the area from an economic, industrial, political, educational, media perspective.
> 
> Now, this is where the difference starts.
> 
> Osaka lives in the shadow of Tokyo, because Japan is a centralised unitary state, so Tokyo makes the decisions for Osaka.
> So Osaka functions as a regional centre for the Western half of the country, and only has some industries and institutions situated there.
> 
> In comparison, Changsha is the capitol for Hunan province with its 66million people. Note that the UK and France have a similar population as Hunan Province, but are not as densely populated. Osaka/Western Japan is somewhat smaller.
> And Changsha is not just a regional centre like Osaka, but is already a primate city which is well on its way to creating more world-class centres of excellence in various fields like London/Paris.
> 
> So once Changsha and the province develop, I expect to see something similar to London and Paris with 8million+ people.
> Changsha can also make all of its own political decisions and policies - unlike Osaka. Of course, this is subject to distant light-touch oversight from the Central Government in Beijing like all the other provinces in China.


In China, there are 3 major regional centres. Guangzhou, Shanghai and Beijing. The legal position is different - Beijing is capital, Shanghai is not a capital but is a municipality, Guangzhou is a legally ordinary provincial capital - but these 3 overshadow all other regional centres whether provincial capitals or municipality of Chongqing.
While Changsha is the legal capital of Hunan in contrast to Osaka that has no legal control over Kyoto or Hyogo prefecture, Hunan is a neighbour of Hubei. On HSR, Changsha-Wuhan is just 347 km, compared to the 621 km Guangzhou-Changsha. A comparable issue in Japan may be Nagoya: Nagoya-Osaka is 173 km by Shinkansen, compared to 342 km Tokyo-Nagoya.


Restless said:


> So this is why I use the comparison of Tokyo-Osaka, because Changsha-Guangzhou/HK should end up busier once it develops.
> This due to factors such as population, journey times, lower ticket prices and the need for individuals to travel between their respective centres of expertise.
> 
> ===
> 
> As for journey times, I say they're comparable because if a train is already full, does it matter if a train makes a stop or not?


I suspect it does. The passengers in the various suburbs of Tokyo and Osaka do not only have to find their way to Tokyo and Shin-Osaka stations: they have the option to go to Shinagawa, Shin-Yokohama or Kyoto stations and catch the train there. Or is it an useless option because the train is already full out of Tokyo and Shin-Osaka and has no space for more passengers?


Restless said:


> What matters is the overall journey time, how reliable the service is, and its frequency. I suspect that we'll only be looking at a maximum of a 10minute wait instead of 5minutes due to eventual service patterns.


Look at the service patterns of Tokyo station.
There is a Nozomi every 10 minutes from 6:50 till 11:10, and then 15:30 to 21:20. Plus some extra Nozomis. On the off-peak period, 4 of the 6 hourly Nozomis still run - :00, :10, :30 and :50 - so wait grows to 20 minutes.
Still, the schedule is fairly easy to memorize.
Compare Guangzhou-Changsha. Yes, some are at sharp hours... 7:00, 8:00, 9:00, 10:00, 14:00, 15:00, 17:00, 19:00, 21:00. But there is no simple rule as to stopping patterns, nor as to when the intermediate trains depart. Expresses are 3 of the sharp hour trains - 8:00, 9:00 and 10:00 - and also 14:33 and 15:33. A total of 5 trains daily... all others begin from 2:33.


Restless said:


> And for longer commuter distances, it's better to build new subway-type lines rather than run commuter train services.


Is Guangzhou-Zhuhai a subway, a commuter rail or a high speed rail?


----------



## hmmwv

Restless said:


> Lots of people do that in the UK and in Germany.


Realistically that journey will take 3 and half hours, and even that's a stretch because you have to consider traffic, slow trucks, and one after another toll stations. It's hard to average close to 100km/h for the whole trip.


----------



## FM 2258

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is Guangzhou-Zhuhai a subway, a commuter rail or a high speed rail?


Last time I checked they were running CRH1 trains on this line. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlreImlMR7E


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou high speed railway seems to have opened.

It is 101 km Nanchang to Fuzhou, and 446 km Fuzhou to Fuzhou.

The D trains seem to be:
D6501 Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou, 3:33 for Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou
D6503 Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou, 3:37 for Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou
D6521 Jiujiang-Nanchang-Fuzhou-Xiamen, 5:50 total, 4:48 for 719 km Nanchang-Fuzhou-Xiamen
D6523 Nanchang-Fuzhou-Xiamen North, 4:23 for 688 km Nanchang-Fuzhou-Xiamen North
D6505 Jiujiang-Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou, 4:41 total, 3:37 for Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou
D3262/D3263 Wuhan-Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou, 7:06 total, 3:35 for Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou
D3276/D3277 Wuhan-Nanchang-Fuzhou-Xiamen, 7:51 total, 4:28 for Nanchang-Fuzhou-Xiamen
D6525 Nanchang-Fuzhou-Xiamen, 5:00 for Nanchang-Fuzhou-Xiamen
D6507 Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou, 3:12 for Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou
D6509 Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou, 3:27 for Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou
D295/D298 Zhengzhou-Wuhan-Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou, 10:20 total, 3:33 for Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou
D3272/D3273 Wuhan-Nanchang-Fuzhou-Xiamen, 7:55 total, 4:30 for Nanchang-Fuzhou-Xiamen North
D3265 Wuhan-Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou, 6:24 total, 3:33 for Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou
D6511 Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou, 3:31 for Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou

Total 9 trains Nanchang-Fuzhou-Fuzhou, best time 3:12, 5 trains Nanchang-Fuzhou-Xiamen, best time 4:23 to Xiamen North and 4:48 to Xiamen.


----------



## laojang

Yes, thanks for posting. Here is a picture from Xinhuanet.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2013-09/26/c_125451148.htm
I am not sure it is a highspeed line in strict sense since the 
max speed is 200km/h and freight trains also run on it. But according to 
the schedule the average speed is around 170-180km/h, which is quite good for mountainous region.
Laojang


----------



## Restless

The original question was whether the HSR would be overloaded at some point in the future. 

They can always build more platforms and put more trains on, but the limit is set by the physics of running a trains on a dual-track 300km/h+ railway.
The tokaido shinkansen has demonstrated the practical limit is around 150 train services per day.

I compare HK/GZ to Tokyo and Changsha to Osaka, because the populations are close enough, and journey times are similar because of faster trains in China.

Now, I find it very hard that you can't contemplate the possibility that Hunan will become wealthy and developed, and for Changsha to develop local transportation networks for an urban population of 8million+.

Changsha's population of 7million is already at $14242 per capita, which is which compares well with Beijing and Shanghai. And note that Hunan province is growing a lot faster than Guangdong because the overall province is a lot poorer, and has only recently been connected to the coast by expressway and convenient passenger rail.

Being next to the coast is a major reason why Shanghai, Beijing and Guangzhou are wealthy, because seaborne freight means they can trade with every other port in the world at rock-bottom rates. 

And remember the whole idea of all those expressways, high-speed railways and airports was to spur the interior regions to develop by connecting them to coastal ports and areas.

A good example is seen in the development history of the USA which also once had a huge and undeveloped interior.

I would expect Changsha to continue growing and getting richer, because it is the capitol of a region with 65million people in total. You only have to look at Europe to see how big the capitol city can grow, based on a similar country population and land area.

Then we have Wuhan City and Hubei province, which is very similar in terms of capitol city size and provincial population. The same dynamics apply to its development, and it also a generates a significant passenger flow to Guangzhou.

So that is the big picture - which certainly leaves enough room for the Changsha section of the HSR to become overloaded in 15+ years time.

Everything else is nitpicking.



chornedsnorkack said:


> And my point is that the HSR is overloaded already.
> 
> Not expected to increase over 5% from the present.
> 
> Just 52 or so % now.
> 
> Not necessarily the case for a city of 8 millions. Yes, Humen is a town (not city) of 640 000 people over 178 square km, and neighbouring Changan (the most populous town) has 660 000 people over 98 square km. So that makes 1,3 millions over 276 square km. But how long would it take from Humen station to Guancheng district?
> 
> In China, there are 3 major regional centres. Guangzhou, Shanghai and Beijing. The legal position is different - Beijing is capital, Shanghai is not a capital but is a municipality, Guangzhou is a legally ordinary provincial capital - but these 3 overshadow all other regional centres whether provincial capitals or municipality of Chongqing.
> While Changsha is the legal capital of Hunan in contrast to Osaka that has no legal control over Kyoto or Hyogo prefecture, Hunan is a neighbour of Hubei. On HSR, Changsha-Wuhan is just 347 km, compared to the 621 km Guangzhou-Changsha. A comparable issue in Japan may be Nagoya: Nagoya-Osaka is 173 km by Shinkansen, compared to 342 km Tokyo-Nagoya.
> 
> I suspect it does. The passengers in the various suburbs of Tokyo and Osaka do not only have to find their way to Tokyo and Shin-Osaka stations: they have the option to go to Shinagawa, Shin-Yokohama or Kyoto stations and catch the train there. Or is it an useless option because the train is already full out of Tokyo and Shin-Osaka and has no space for more passengers?
> 
> Look at the service patterns of Tokyo station.
> There is a Nozomi every 10 minutes from 6:50 till 11:10, and then 15:30 to 21:20. Plus some extra Nozomis. On the off-peak period, 4 of the 6 hourly Nozomis still run - :00, :10, :30 and :50 - so wait grows to 20 minutes.
> Still, the schedule is fairly easy to memorize.
> Compare Guangzhou-Changsha. Yes, some are at sharp hours... 7:00, 8:00, 9:00, 10:00, 14:00, 15:00, 17:00, 19:00, 21:00. But there is no simple rule as to stopping patterns, nor as to when the intermediate trains depart. Expresses are 3 of the sharp hour trains - 8:00, 9:00 and 10:00 - and also 14:33 and 15:33. A total of 5 trains daily... all others begin from 2:33.
> 
> 
> Is Guangzhou-Zhuhai a subway, a commuter rail or a high speed rail?


----------



## Restless

hmmwv said:


> Realistically that journey will take 3 and half hours, and even that's a stretch because you have to consider traffic, slow trucks, and one after another toll stations. It's hard to average close to 100km/h for the whole trip.


Fair enough.

So that would push more passengers from their cars to the railway.


----------



## bearb

Test trains will be sent to Shenzhen North Station on 30th of September during night time. Xiamen-Shenzhen Line will start the 'trains on track test' from 1st of October.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Hm... what are the other major lines approaching opening now? Tianjin-Qinhuangdao, Guangzhou-Wuzhou-Nanning, Nanning-Hengyang, Nanning-Beihai?


----------



## xinxingren

Another question, are the D trains currently running Hangzhou Shangrao Nanchang on standard track? They seem to manage 120km/hr ...


----------



## silent_dragon

So animals boarding CRH are ok like dogs and cats? how about goats? :nuts: :banana:


----------



## big-dog

Duplicate


----------



## Silly_Walks

big-dog said:


> read the full article
> Speedy Trains Transform China


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=107357457&postcount=6483


----------



## China Hand

Restless said:


> Speedy Trains Transform China
> 
> CHANGSHA, China — The cavernous rail station here for China’s new high-speed trains was nearly deserted when it opened less than four years ago.
> 
> Not anymore. Practically every train is sold out, although they leave for cities all over the country every several minutes. Long lines snake back from ticket windows under the 50-foot ceiling of white, gently undulating steel that floats cloudlike over the departure hall. An ambitious construction program will soon nearly double the size of the 16-platform station.
> 
> Just five years after China’s high-speed rail system opened, it is carrying nearly twice as many passengers each month as the country’s domestic airline industry. With traffic growing 28 percent a year for the last several years, China’s high-speed rail network will handle more passengers by early next year than the 54 million people a month who board domestic flights in the United States.
> 
> continued
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/24/b...huge-success-for-china.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0


Ghost Cities.

Whilst there is a great deal of accuracy to building something where no one will move, in Zhengzhou NC the story differs. This area E and NE of downtown, was gleaming, new and totally deserted 4 years ago when I visited. I was dropped off at a bus station, many cities in China have 3-6 bus stations, in the middle of nowhere. Dust blew across the completely empty 8 lane by 6 lane intersection as I walked 500m to catch the bus that went E, then N, then W and finally into downtown.

It was, however, also 500 m from the new CRH junction.

That was before the ZGO CRH station opened with the line from Xian-ZGO and Beijing-Shenzhen.

Fast forward to this year and the empty buildings and streets are no longer as the massive CRH station has attracted hundred's of thousands of people to the NC area E and NE of Zhengzhou.

Traffic, businesses and people living in those empty buildings.


----------



## China Hand

laojang said:


> Here is a link to a picture which, in my opinion, symbolizes the sharp
> contrast of China's economy today. One can see not only a HSL (perhaps 350km/h standard) near completion, but also a donkey pulling a cart with supplies. Credit bbs.railcn.
> 
> http://bbs.railcn.net/thread-1154220-1-1.html
> 
> Laojang


It's overstated. I would have to travel 2 or 3 hours, go up in the hills, and specifically look for very small villages to possibly find a donkey pulling a cart. More likely is that the family has one, or several, e-Trikes or gas powered, 3 wheeled motorbikes up to 30 feet long, like a 3-wheel truck.

Anyone who could afford a draft animal could afford to buy a vehicle, and if they could not afford an animal they are still ploughing the fields by hand themselves, one person yoked and one guiding the plough.

Not fiction, seen it once or twice but it is rapidly disappearing.

Very rapidly.


----------



## foxmulder

Silly_Walks said:


> Are you saying the Maglev is a grand succes now compared to 2007?


The point is people starting to drop white elephant claim.


----------



## billwe

foxmulder said:


> The point is people starting to drop white elephant claim.


yes, "A white elephant is an idiom for a valuable but burdensome possession of which its owner cannot dispose and whose cost (particularly cost of upkeep) is out of proportion to its usefulness or worth."

Most of the western media love to over emphasize "empty" to train and "ghost" to city and over emphasize the "white elephant" and missing the part of "positive" outlook. Certainly, they are not totally wrong in empty train or ghost city however over time people will use it and ghost city will become filled again as China government start to build high speed train station into that city.


----------



## Silly_Walks

foxmulder said:


> The point is people starting to drop white elephant claim.


Mentioning the maglev is _not_ what you should do to make _that_ point. It is still a prestige waste of billions as long as they don't extend it to Lujiazui, the center, and Hongqiao.


----------



## xinxingren

China Hand said:


> Anyone who could afford a draft animal could afford to buy a vehicle, and if they could not afford an animal they are still ploughing the fields by hand themselves, one person yoked and one guiding the plough.


I suspect that pic was specially posed. What is the guy doing at the back of the trolley? Even the caption says in Chinese WTF?




laojang said:


> Here is a link to a picture which, in my opinion, symbolizes the sharp
> contrast of China's economy today.


And IMO symbolises the sharp wit of Chinese bloggers.


----------



## foxmulder

Silly_Walks said:


> Mentioning the maglev is _not_ what you should do to make _that_ point. It is still a prestige waste of billions as long as they don't extend it to Lujiazui, the center, and Hongqiao.


Its not cool you are only focusing on maglev and ignoring the point. The point stands. 

If you want to talk about positives and negatives of the maglev, we can talk about that too, but still that is not the point.


----------



## billwe

Silly_Walks said:


> Mentioning the maglev is _not_ what you should do to make _that_ point. It is still a prestige waste of billions as long as they don't extend it to Lujiazui, the center, and Hongqiao.


yes, I somewhat agree mentioning "the maglev" opening a "hole" in a debate that allow other to attack on it and thanks for mentioning it. However I do agree with foxmulder the point is stand.

The reason i use the maglev link because I don't want to spend too much time in finding the right article link from the "authority source" (new york times, cnn, forbes etc) around that time "2007-2008". All I can remember, they "love" to dampen the "spirit" of high speed train by over emphasize "empty" train.

So, both of you guys are right


----------



## China Hand

billwe said:


> yes, "A white elephant is an idiom for a valuable but burdensome possession of which its owner cannot dispose and whose cost (particularly cost of upkeep) is out of proportion to its usefulness or worth."
> 
> Most of the western media love to over emphasize "empty" to train and "ghost" to city and over emphasize the "white elephant" and missing the part of "positive" outlook. Certainly, they are not totally wrong in empty train or ghost city however over time people will use it and ghost city will become filled again as China government start to build high speed train station into that city.


There is also the Sunk Cost Fallacy, whereby someone says:

"Well, I have spent this much money and time on this I may as well continue a little while longer, see it through, and get some small return."

Instead cutting and starting over is best.

However as we see, CRH and the GaoTie is packed and latent demand rears its head again.


----------



## China Hand

xinxingren said:


> I suspect that pic was specially posed. What is the guy doing at the back of the trolley? Even the caption says in Chinese WTF?
> 
> And IMO symbolises the sharp wit of Chinese bloggers.


May have been posed, but I have seen twice just that scene. Dad or Mom pulling the plough yoked in, and the other guiding it.

Not often, but once or twice in my travels all over China.


----------



## FM 2258

Very interesting picture *laojang*, love it http://bbs.railcn.net/thread-1154220-1-1.html


----------



## Silly_Walks

foxmulder said:


> Its not cool you are only focusing on maglev and ignoring the point.


YOU mentioned the Maglev.


----------



## :jax:

The press on Chinese HSR has been all over fair, with some more critical (e.g. WSJ) and others more enthusiastic (like this NYT). After Wenzhou there was an increased concern on safety.

Yes, there is a subtext, particularly in the US. This period has overlapped with Obama's presidential period, initially with plans to build HSR in the US as well. The articles ostensibly about China were really strikes in a proxy war on domestic transport affairs. Likewise any report on the British National Health System would picture it as a death trap or miracle cure, not based on the system's qualities, but the writer's stance on Obamacare.

That said, both the positive reports (fast, shiny, modern) and the negative ones (expensive) have had their points, at least the well-researched ones. The criticism (again the good one) wasn't that nobody would use it, but that the money could be spent more effectively in a developing society with substandard infrastructure and above standard needs.


----------



## Pansori

:jax: said:


> The press on Chinese HSR has been all over fair, with some more critical (e.g. WSJ) and others more enthusiastic (like this NYT). After Wenzhou there was an increased concern on safety.
> 
> Yes, there is a subtext, particularly in the US. This period has overlapped with Obama's presidential period, initially with plans to build HSR in the US as well. The articles ostensibly about China were really strikes in a proxy war on domestic transport affairs. Likewise any report on the British National Health System would picture it as a death trap or miracle cure, not based on the system's qualities, but the writer's stance on Obamacare.
> 
> That said, both the positive reports (fast, shiny, modern) and the negative ones (expensive) have had their points, at least the well-researched ones. The criticism (again the good one) wasn't that nobody would use it, but that the money could be spent more effectively in a developing society with substandard infrastructure and above standard needs.


The press was mainly negative prior to 2011-2012. Virtually all so-called 'analytical' reports were negative for sure: Too expensive, too much debt, empty trains, empty stations, unaffordable for the poor (as if it is elsewhere??), revenues from tickets too low (somewhat contradicting the 'unaffordable' argument) and so on and so forth. Almost every aspect of China's HSR boom was 'bad'. After the Wenzhou accident it became the 'core' of the whole anti-Chinese-HSR media tirade. They kept repeating it in EVERY single article for at least a year or so. And there were quite a few of those.

After that (around late 2012 I suppose) there was almost complete silence on China's HSR expansion in the Western media. This was most probably due to the fact that most of the lines (let alone the main ones) were actually very busy (if not completely packed) and the revenues from tickets were quite good. That is not mentioning the fact that it almost literally transformed travel in China overnight and demonstrated what was perhaps the biggest leapfrog in the history of transportation as such. There simply was no way to post anything negative once this became way too evident even to a Western reader. Hence the silence. Now some newspapers might well drop an occasional 'positive' article in an 'as if nothing happened' fashion. :|

The reality is that the HSR development in China over the past 8 years or so was a _colossal_ success unprecedented in the history of transportation and it was too clear from the very beginning.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Pansori said:


> The press was mainly negative prior to 2011-2012. Too expensive, too much debt, empty trains, empty stations, unaffordable for peasants (as if it should be??), revenues from tickets too low (somewhat contradicting the 'unaffordable' argument) and so on. After the Wenzhou accident it became the 'core' of the whole anti-Chinese-HSR media tirade. They kept repeating it in EVERY single article for at least a year or so. And there were quite a few of those.
> 
> After that (around late 2012 I suppose) there was almost complete silence on China's HSR expansion. This was most probably due to the fact that most of the lines (let alone the main ones) were actually very busy (if not completely packed) and the revenues from tickets were quite good. That is not mentioning the fact that it almost literally transformed travel in China overnight and demonstrated what was perhaps the biggest leapfrog in the history of transportation as such. There simply was no way to post anything negative once this became way too evident even to a Western reader. Hence the silence. Now some newspapers might well drop an poccasional 'positive' article as 'if nothing happened'. :|


What a wonderfully skewed world view, where the (Western) media are evil, spiteful monsters out to get the poor, poor Chinese.

Come on, grow a pair.

There were plenty of journalists writing negative things about Chinese HSR, because
1. It's journalist's job to be critical. Just blindly praising doesn't do people any good.
2. Negative news sells. Yes, no matter how horrible this is, 'journalists' publish negative news, often without much knowledge about the subject matter, because they want to make money.

Now, there have been some negative stories on Chinese HSR in some Western media, stories which I, because I know a bit about HSR, knew were largely nonsense, but there were also critical stories that had good points and still do (mainly surrounding the enormous amounts of debt because of all the building, etc., which are points to be careful with). But I have also seen many, many, many EXTREMELY positive stories about Chinese HSR in all kinds of Western media. 
Why some people here might think the Western media are/were unfairly negative about Chinese HSR is probably because there have been some people here who continually posted every single negative/critical story ever published in Western media, but never any of the positive ones, and this is how you get a skewed world view.
It seems extremely popular with some people on this forum to think that China is this poor little kitten that is totally mistreated by the evil pit-bull that is the Western media. You gotta wake up and realize China is no longer the "sick man of Asia", but just a very smart, powerful country. China doesn't need to be treated with silk gloves, and journalists SHOULD be critical. If you gather proper information yourself, you can easily weed out the bullshit sensationalist articles by journalists trying to sell product, and perhaps you can steer away from this weird thinking that everybody is conspiring against China.


----------



## particlez

^lolz

That Maglev is somehow symbolic of failure--the various xenophobes, transit haters, and austerians will forever dredge it up. In reality, the Maglev works, but was derailed (no pun intended) by irrational Nimbyism. I'm not sure if the opposition was sincere or was the product of an astroturf campaign, and it's a very small issue in the long run.

Re: the western media and Chinese HSR. You guys are delusional if you think the mainstream media in the US (and any number of aligned foreign nations) was going to be objective regarding the Chinese HSR. Media companies like the NYTimes and the WSJ are de facto PR outlets for their various sponsors. Banks, real estate, insurance, pharmaceuticals, oil, military. Why else would the mainstream media clamor for war, clamor for bank bailouts, yet ignore or dismiss calls for infrastructure or social spending? Mind you, plenty of media in the US does have the greater good in mind, but we're talking about the NYTimes and the WSJ and any number of high-profile, outwardly glamorous companies. Amy Goodman and Matt Taibbi just aren't quoted here.

The latest NYTimes article is a 180 degree turnaround, but it comes AFTER the Chinese HSR's implementation and empirical value. *It's easy to say a proposal won't work. It's difficult to cite a functioning, efficient, and productive investment and twist it into a negative.*

Take a gander at this old NYTimes article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/23/world/asia/23iht-letter.html

Do some advanced searches on the internet. Look for articles more than a few years old. They're overwhelmingly *negative*.

This brings up another point: Why the hell would the WSJ and the NYTimes focus on a foreign HSR project? After all, they won't have any influence in China. In this case, _they harnessed their domestice audience's latent xenophobia, economic miseducation, and historical amnesia to disparage some irrelevant foreign subject._ The writer of the article is Michael Pettis, former d_____bag for disgraced Bear Stearns. There are many domestic opponents of HSR in the US. Oil companies and airlines are obvious vested interests. The finance industry (of which M. Pettis was a glorified salesman) wanted US bailout money in the hands of "wealth creators" who could then use that money to flip commodities and pay themselves. Spending valuable resources to actually help plebeians goes against their economic sensibilities.

And really now, would the US have developed properly without its historically large investments in railways, interstates, etc.? It's as if the WSJ, NYTimes, and a bunch of other supposedly "objective" media outlets are banking on their audience being amnesiacs and idiots.

You can get angry at the media. They've subverted the ideals of the fifth estate and exchanged them for advertising dollars. You should get even more angry at the credulous audience for lapping up these instances of bad journalism. The articles were never about railways in China. The articles were about influencing their domestic audience's attitudes.


----------



## hmmwv

foxmulder said:


> As far as I know, 200km/h lines are not included.


I think they actually include those newly constructed 200km/h lines, because the vast majority of them are designed as 250km/h lines and only artificially limited to 200km/h. So by definition they are proper HSRs.


----------



## bluemeansgo

It's sad that the media is overly negative, however two points:


Journalists are still human, and therefore influenced by the religion of nationalism
It goes both ways... but fewer westerners can read Chinese news than vice-versa

Negativity from China about Western issues is likely just as biased, or perhaps more so... given that western media has more "corporate control" and less "government corporate controlled" and many US based multi-national corporations have a vested interest in China.


----------



## particlez

You can't be too angry at the journalists. They want to get paid, and thus they tow the line. You'd rather be a disingenuous journalist than a waiter with good language skills.

There's no shortage of idiot nationalism in China. But the social flaws in China are a lot more overt, thus the propaganda isn't nearly as effective. No "sane" person sees the US Social Security System as a boondoggle, and emblematic of a foreign cultural flaw.

There's also plenty of domestic anti-HSR, anti-subway, anti-infrastructure articles in the Chinese media. Caixin.com is bankrolled by real estate and airline barons, and surprise surprise, it's published plenty of austerity arguments.

Regarding multinational companies (everywhere, not just in the US or China)--they just want to make the biggest ROI. If that doesn't occur through producing better products and services, they'll just resort to tax loopholes, further exploiting their workers, diverting gov't funds to themselves--basically keeping their profits and externalizing their expenses. 

You just want the readers to see things with skepticism, and not just line up via their tribal allegiances.


----------



## Pansori

Silly_Walks said:


> What a wonderfully skewed world view, where the (Western) media are evil, spiteful monsters out to get the poor, poor Chinese.


What? Where did I ever say that? :lol:
I merely stated a fact.



> There were plenty of journalists writing negative things about Chinese HSR, because
> 
> 2. Negative news sells. Yes, no matter how horrible this is, 'journalists' publish negative news, often without much knowledge about the subject matter, because they want to make money.


True.




> China doesn't need to be treated with silk gloves, and journalists SHOULD be critical. If you gather proper information yourself, you can easily weed out the bullshit sensationalist articles by journalists trying to sell product, and perhaps you can steer away from this weird thinking that everybody is conspiring against China.


Journalists should provide us with information which is as close to reality as possible. Publishing information which is distorted on purpose is not called journalism. It's called sham journalism. And no I didn't gather my information from SSC. In fact I read pretty much every single article in English on Chinese HSR that was posted between 2009 and now and make my conclusions based on that, not what has been posted on SSC.


----------



## Pansori

particlez said:


> *It's easy to say a proposal won't work. It's difficult to cite a functioning, efficient, and productive investment and twist it into a negative.*


Precisely! And that is what I wrote myself too. The peak of the criticisms in the Western media was during the time when first major trunk lines were constructed. Even before most of them opened it was already 'clear' that it was all going to end badly... most probably. By now once a good chunk of the system is actually up and running there is simply no way to draw doomsday scenarios because all available empirical evidence suggests the contrary i.e. that system is, in fact, working like a charm and already benefiting the people.


----------



## Sopomon

What is confirmation bias: The Thread.


----------



## foxmulder

Silly_Walks said:


> YOU mentioned the Maglev.


 No, I haven't. It wasn't my post Silly


----------



## foxmulder

hmmwv said:


> I think they actually include those newly constructed 200km/h lines, because the vast majority of them are designed as 250km/h lines and only artificially limited to 200km/h. So by definition they are proper HSRs.


Yes, they are, you are right. I understood the question more on a pure speed based way. There are upgraded lines that let 200km/h speed which, I believe, cannot be included in this because it was over 6000km even in year 2007.


----------



## particlez

Sopomon said:


> What is confirmation bias: The Thread.


Ironic, coming from you.

You've long cited crappy articles to justify your biases. 'Cept your editorials don't stand up to scrutiny. 

The negative tone of WSJ, NYTimes, and your editorials could have been directed against the previous infrastructure projects of numerous other places. Inveighing against the wasteful, unaffordable London Tube (as opposed to XXX project in XXX foreign locale) makes just as much sense. But it's always easier to scapegoat some foreign entity and overlook similar occurrences at home.


----------



## China Hand

Pansori said:


> Precisely! And that is what I wrote myself too. The peak of the criticisms in the Western media was during the time when first major trunk lines were constructed.


I live in China and one of the trillion adjustments those in the rest of the world need to make is this:

The Chinese refer to 'The West'. However, what they mean is essential the rest of the planet, except for the other two Confucian NE Asian nations and Russia. Maybe.

When you write 'The West' you mean the EU, England, Anglo Oceania, North America and possibly South America.

The Chinese use it to refer to the set of all non-Chinese excluding SOME Asian nations and MAYBE Russia.


----------



## Svartmetall

Can we please keep this thread:

a) To topic

b) Less hostile and confrontational. 

Next person who levies a personal insult gets infracted. If it continues you get brigged/banned. 

Criticism and asking questions of projects and hearing responses from locals on the ground is what we are here for, but when we allow too many "feelings" about things into the mix it becomes unproductive. If one feels that sources are biased, then have some facts/figures to balance the claims so that we can all learn rather than simply being demeaning and disparaging with responses - that goes for all sides of this ongoing debate regarding China and development in China.

We can use these forums to learn, or we can use them to argue unproductively. I prefer the former condition. I thank all of the meaningful contributors as I (on a personal note) really enjoy seeing the developments in the system. 

Carry on.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Back to topic then:



bearb said:


> Test trains will be sent to Shenzhen North Station on 30th of September during night time. Xiamen-Shenzhen Line will start the 'trains on track test' from 1st of October.


It is 1st.
How is the progress of tests?


----------



## Sopomon

particlez said:


> Ironic, coming from you.
> 
> You've long cited crappy articles to justify your biases. 'Cept your editorials don't stand up to scrutiny.
> 
> The negative tone of WSJ, NYTimes, and your editorials could have been directed against the previous infrastructure projects of numerous other places. Inveighing against the wasteful, unaffordable London Tube (as opposed to XXX project in XXX foreign locale) makes just as much sense. But it's always easier to scapegoat some foreign entity and overlook similar occurrences at home.


You're confusing supporting your point for confirmation bias.

I am aware of the multitude of positive articles avaiable out there.


----------



## Restless

particlez said:


> You can't be too angry at the journalists. They want to get paid, and thus they tow the line. You'd rather be a disingenuous journalist than a waiter with good language skills.
> 
> There's no shortage of idiot nationalism in China. But the social flaws in China are a lot more overt, thus the propaganda isn't nearly as effective. No "sane" person sees the US Social Security System as a boondoggle, and emblematic of a foreign cultural flaw.
> 
> There's also plenty of domestic anti-HSR, anti-subway, anti-infrastructure articles in the Chinese media. Caixin.com is bankrolled by real estate and airline barons, and surprise surprise, it's published plenty of austerity arguments.
> 
> Regarding multinational companies (everywhere, not just in the US or China)--they just want to make the biggest ROI. If that doesn't occur through producing better products and services, they'll just resort to tax loopholes, further exploiting their workers, diverting gov't funds to themselves--basically keeping their profits and externalizing their expenses.
> 
> You just want the readers to see things with skepticism, and not just line up via their tribal allegiances.


I'd actually say that the average British/US journalist just doesn't understand what is happening in China and why. So that ignorance just leads to confirmation bias of their personal stereotypes and prejudices.

It also doesn't help that they lack the knowledge about economic development paths that various countries have taken.

The same applies vice-versa, with Chinese journalists writing about the UK/US.


----------



## China Hand

Restless said:


> It also doesn't help that they lack the knowledge about economic development paths that various countries have taken.


One reason The Chinese Model may work, in China and not elsewhere, is that Chinese people often prefer and defer to being told what to do.

Other cultures people aren't going to just jump because the .Gov says so, in China I hear so often a variation upon:

"We have to follow the rules and do what X says.".

I also am asked constantly about various personal behaviours:

"Well what does the .Gov think?"

Then I inform them that what people do is not the .Gov's concern and everyone expresses disapproval.

So what may be happening is that in other nations where economic incentives would have people expressing disapproval by moving or not participating, in China the people may simply do what they are told.

That's what I have heard from many people here in the last 5 years, and it's why their top-down, Dirigiste model may work for them.


----------



## Restless

China Hand said:


> One reason The Chinese Model may work, in China and not elsewhere, is that Chinese people often prefer and defer to being told what to do.
> 
> Other cultures people aren't going to just jump because the .Gov says so, in China I hear so often a variation upon:
> 
> "We have to follow the rules and do what X says.".
> 
> I also am asked constantly about various personal behaviours:
> 
> "Well what does the .Gov think?"
> 
> Then I inform them that what people do is not the .Gov's concern and everyone expresses disapproval.
> 
> So what may be happening is that in other nations where economic incentives would have people expressing disapproval by moving or not participating, in China the people may simply do what they are told.
> 
> That's what I have heard from many people here in the last 5 years, and it's why their top-down, Dirigiste model may work for them.


What you've said is true.

But in the context of high speed rail, I'm referring to how US journalists don't have any experience with HSR, because the USA doesn't have HSR lines nor of passenger railway lines for that matter.

And they're also ignorant that with China's population density, the situation is more like a London-Manchester route which needs the following:

2x slow-speed tracks
2x upgraded 200km/h tracks
2x dedicated 300km/h HSR tracks (still to be built even though the current lines are overloaded)

This is basic development economics that applies when you have:
1. a given population
2. a given density
3. a certain route corridor of certain length
4. a mid-upper wealth levels


----------



## particlez

HSR is just a technological development. HSR delivers similar productivity gains as the previous build out of conventional rail and the interstate network. 

It's very difficult to argue against the efficacy and the productivity gains of these previous infrastructure investments. Yet a lot of ire is still directed towards future infrastructure. Last week I paid $400 for a 1-hour flight between two hub airports. Safe to say, the airlines have been lobbying hard against any rail link.

Thus when myriad stories about "wasteful" Chinese HSR planning came out in the domestic US media, I was annoyed. Half a decade later, we've moved on from China, yet we still see skeptical stories about the futility of rail investment in the US.


----------



## particlez

Restless said:


> I'd actually say that the average British/US journalist just doesn't understand what is happening in China and why. So that ignorance just leads to confirmation bias of their personal stereotypes and prejudices.
> 
> It also doesn't help that they lack the knowledge about economic development paths that various countries have taken.
> 
> The same applies vice-versa, with Chinese journalists writing about the UK/US.


Planning theory and economic history can be learned. With the exception of available technology, China's present build out of its road and rail networks (in both the built aspect and financing) is very similar to what occurred in the US between the 1870s and the New Deal. Journalists covering the subject SHOULD know this. Being ignorant of some foreign place is already pretty bad. Being ignorant of your own history is even worse.

But instead we saw plenty of doom 'n gloom articles, interviews with investment bankers who said it was a simple waste of money. Why would a rational journalist with half a brain want a finance industry's perspective on infrastructure? If there were high interest loans and carrying charges involved, would the bankers be happier?

There's NO shortage of very competent, principled journalists. But the big media outlets themselves have been consolidated and reflect a very narrow range of viewpoints. Unfortunately the WSJ and NYTimes are quoted. They argued for war, they argued for bank bailouts, and they think government spending on plebeians is a waste of money, so they're "critical" of public infrastructure. 

No one is quoting dimwit, xenophobe Chinese journalists about _____ foreign place. Because of its authoritarian nature, people are cognizant of the biases in Chinese journalism itself. Yet the media in the US is theoretically free, and people expect objectivity. They often get something else, but don't question it (i.e. a banker's negative stance on gov't funded infrastructure). So in a roundabout way, it's more insidious and more effective.


----------



## Restless

particlez said:


> HSR is just a technological development. HSR delivers similar productivity gains as the previous build out of conventional rail and the interstate network.
> 
> It's very difficult to argue against the efficacy and the productivity gains of these previous infrastructure investments. Yet a lot of ire is still directed towards future infrastructure. Last week I paid $400 for a 1-hour flight between two hub airports. Safe to say, the airlines have been lobbying hard against any rail link.
> 
> Thus when myriad stories about "wasteful" Chinese HSR planning came out in the domestic US media, I was annoyed. Half a decade later, we've moved on from China, yet we still see skeptical stories about the futility of rail investment in the US.


Well, most of the USA just doesn't have the population density and population clusters for HSR to make sense.

I think there are some corridors that do, but there's still that huge bias that anything done by the government is automatically a bad thing.


----------



## Restless

particlez said:


> Planning theory and economic history can be learned. With the exception of available technology, China's present build out of its road and rail networks (in both the built aspect and financing) is very similar to what occurred in the US between the 1870s and the New Deal. Journalists covering the subject SHOULD know this. Being ignorant of some foreign place is already pretty bad. Being ignorant of your own history is even worse.
> 
> But instead we saw plenty of doom 'n gloom articles, interviews with investment bankers who said it was a simple waste of money. Why would a rational journalist with half a brain want a finance industry's perspective on infrastructure? If there were high interest loans and carrying charges involved, would the bankers be happier?
> 
> There's NO shortage of very competent, principled journalists. But the big media outlets themselves have been consolidated and reflect a very narrow range of viewpoints. Unfortunately the WSJ and NYTimes are quoted. They argued for war, they argued for bank bailouts, and they think government spending on plebeians is a waste of money, so they're "critical" of public infrastructure.
> 
> No one is quoting dimwit, xenophobe Chinese journalists about _____ foreign place. Because of its authoritarian nature, people are cognizant of the biases in Chinese journalism itself. Yet the media in the US is theoretically free, and people expect objectivity. They often get something else, but don't question it (i.e. a banker's negative stance on gov't funded infrastructure). So in a roundabout way, it's more insidious and more effective.


Remember that the key thing is the overall cost-benefit ratio of a project, and benefits are more than just whether it is profitable.

After all, it is the government funding the project, and the government that is accruing all the benefits.

It be would be nice if it could be done with private money, but the purely financial benefits over the 30year lifecycle aren't enough to justify the hude financial risk as it would sink any private investor.

Yeah, the thing is that many journalists just don't even realise the biases that they have. I actually worked at BBC for a while lol


----------



## Sopomon

> I'm referring to how US journalists don't have any experience with HSR, because the USA doesn't have HSR lines nor of passenger railway lines for that matter.


Are there any forummers able to summarise French, German or Japanese commentary on the subject then? 
The latter would be likely to have nationalistic bias, but I'm sure French and German commentators who are used to dealing with arguments over their own nations' HSR systems would have more insight than most commentators from the US.


----------



## foxmulder

Sopomon said:


> You're confusing supporting your point for confirmation bias.
> 
> I am aware of the multitude of positive articles avaiable out there.


I am not trying to be ironic etc. but can you share some of them, I would like to read them especially if they are from more known media outlets. Most of the time (almost always) I end up reading some ill informed reporter bashing high speed rail.


----------



## FM 2258

Restless said:


> Well, most of the USA just doesn't have the population density and population clusters for HSR to make sense.
> 
> I think there are some corridors that do, but there's still that huge bias that anything done by the government is automatically a bad thing.


I think HSR will work perfectly here in Texas. Link Austin, Dallas, Houston and San Antonio at least to get started. Then again you said "most" I can see your point.


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> Back to topic then:
> It is 1st. (October)
> How is the progress of tests? (Xiamen-Shenzhen)


You asking for test results on a Holiday week?
Better go read the irresponsible tabloids everybody else is nagging about :banana:


----------



## particlez

Restless said:


> Remember that the key thing is the overall cost-benefit ratio of a project, and benefits are more than just whether it is profitable.
> 
> After all, it is the government funding the project, and the government that is accruing all the benefits.
> 
> It be would be nice if it could be done with private money, but the purely financial benefits over the 30year lifecycle aren't enough to justify the hude financial risk as it would sink any private investor.
> 
> Yeah, the thing is that many journalists just don't even realise the biases that they have. I actually worked at BBC for a while lol


Considering railroads are a natural monopoly and result in higher overall productivity, it's something that should be undertaken by government. Akin to public education, or public medicine, the highway system, or pensions.

Go back to the past, and you'd see VERY SIMILAR development patterns in other areas of the world. The HSR-bashers in the media are either willfully ignorant, or flat-out incompetent.

Many of the "intellectual" criticisms stem from Austrian economic theory. Sadly Austrian economic theory doesn't comport with empirical evidence. Could the US have developed without its railways and interstates? Could London, Paris, et al. function properly without its expensive investment in public transit?


----------



## particlez

FM 2258 said:


> I think HSR will work perfectly here in Texas. Link Austin, Dallas, Houston and San Antonio at least to get started. Then again you said "most" I can see your point.


LOLZ. I hate I-45. You can enjoy the traffic between various large cities, or you can check the flight schedules between said cities. It's another reason to question the motivation of the HSR-haters. Building HSR between Duluth and North Dakota doesn't make sense, yet these potentially inefficient projects are seen as an inevitability.

Now that the HSR in China is grudgingly acknowledged to make sense, the anti-investment crowd has to find new reasons to bolster their argument.


----------



## Restless

Sopomon said:


> Are there any forummers able to summarise French, German or Japanese commentary on the subject then?
> The latter would be likely to have nationalistic bias, but I'm sure French and German commentators who are used to dealing with arguments over their own nations' HSR systems would have more insight than most commentators from the US.


In the UK, the proposed HS2 project gets compared to the Chinese HSR build out all the time.

That comes from both the supporters and detractors of the project.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Back to topic then:
> It is 1st.
> How is the progress of tests?


The line has finished static acceptance and joint calibration and testing will commence sometime early October. There is no solid date so no one knows when exactly that will happen. I'd suppose there will be some delays due to the typhoons they experienced, especially the tragic loss of six workers when their dorm was destroyed during the storm.


----------



## Sopomon

foxmulder said:


> I am not trying to be ironic etc. but can you share some of them, I would like to read them especially if they are from more known media outlets. Most of the time (almost always) I end up reading some ill informed reporter bashing high speed rail.


Google News search: Chinese high speed rail

Then look at the top four most recent stories.


----------



## foxmulder

Sopomon said:


> Google News search: Chinese high speed rail
> 
> Then look at the top four most recent stories.



Thanks but this wasn't helpful. You see only mentioned NYTimes blog post, some no name blogs then English Chinese newspaper sites, mostly hongkong based etc. Nothing else.

however, I liked this one (from an undergrad - he might be a member here  ):

http://qz.com/116190/high-speed-rail-is-at-the-foundation-of-chinas-growth-strategy/

I read generally British outlets. BBC, Economist, Reuters etc. and some American ones such Atlantic, CNN, NYTimes.. I have yet to see smt positive about Chinese high speed rail (except the last months - which was the point of the first post). 

Anyhow, not that important.


----------



## Sopomon

^^

That was the easiest and fastest example. There are clearly a dearth of positive stories about it.
I don't understand why this is being treated as some kind of propaganda war. I'm an avid reader of the economist and they provide a balanced view on HSR in China, as one would expect.

I don't understand what your point is nor am I going to continue this conversation any further.


----------



## foxmulder

Sopomon said:


> ^^
> 
> That was the easiest and fastest example. There are clearly a dearth of positive stories about it.


Share some please, I seriously would like to read them. 

Above example does not work so it is not an example. 

When I look at even old posts here citing those sources I see nothing positive. 



Sopomon said:


> I'm an avid reader of the economist and they provide a balanced view on HSR in China, as one would expect.


That says a lot.  For your own good, do not trust economist as an objective source.



Sopomon said:


> I don't understand what your point is nor am I going to continue this conversation any further.


Point is very clear, media is changing its tone because they cannot look at the usage of the trains and say "white elephants".


----------



## Pansori

Sopomon said:


> Google News search: Chinese high speed rail
> 
> Then look at the top four most recent stories.


Is there a way to do the same for 2009, 2010, 2011?


----------



## billwe

Pansori said:


> Is there a way to do the same for 2009, 2010, 2011?


you can search by date range. Search Tools -> Custom Range


----------



## chornedsnorkack

xinxingren said:


> You asking for test results on a Holiday week?


Well, I did notice with some surprise that the tests were scheduled on holiday, but I believed that news.


----------



## China Hand

particlez said:


> Considering railroads are a natural monopoly and result in higher overall productivity, it's something that should be undertaken by government. Akin to public education, or public medicine, the highway system, or pensions.
> 
> Go back to the past, and you'd see VERY SIMILAR development patterns in other areas of the world. The HSR-bashers in the media are either willfully ignorant, or flat-out incompetent.
> 
> Many of the "intellectual" criticisms stem from Austrian economic theory. Sadly Austrian economic theory doesn't comport with empirical evidence.


You are wrong, but this forum isn't about economics. The West is melting down, crushed by debt, due to Keynesianism. Fact. Empirical evidence. Austrians are right, Keynesians are irresponsible children ruining The West as we speak and the MMT crowd are simply delusional and insane. Some debt is manageable, too much is not and Keynesians just keep spending until you get 30% UE (Greece) or unworkable "public healthcare" (USA).

"public medicine" is bankrupting all nations who use it, and going to accelerate the USA's dive to the bottom.

"pensions" are being stolen by governments to balance their budgets and pay for the "public medicine" and deficit spending.

That said, spending money ONE HAS, as the USA did on the Interstate and Railway systems, is very wise indeed. Going into crushing debt to build it, is not.

China has $3 Trillion Euros of national savings and another $5 Trillion Euros of personal household savings. China has the money.

Whilst they are issuing debt, China has the money to spend on projects like this and thus it is a good investment as it does not saddle current and future generations with crushing debt as in Greece, Italy, Spain, USA, Japan...

Thus the money China is spending on trains, money it earned, saved, and set aside to invest, will be well spent and will enable the economy to grow for decades to come. The point is that one must SACRIFICE EARN SAVE and SET ASIDE FIRST.

Keynesians would just issue debt, and spend.


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ Despite how much I would love to respond to that, I'd rather debate in the correct setting. Please keep this thread to topic. Final warning to everyone. If you want to discuss economics there is the "In The News" section for that.


----------



## flankerjun




----------



## flankerjun

The pictures following are collected from internet, thanks for the author


----------



## _Night City Dream_

Hogqiao railway station, Shanghai.


http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/night-city-dream/view/690583/

Hongqiao railway station is located right beyond the Outer ring road next to the Hongqiao international airport. As I can see, the station accomodates only high-speed rail trains.


One of the "Harmony" trains. All the HSR trains carry this name. I am especially fond of the way they say "Welcome aboard Harmony" very sweet and sexy. 

Japanese-based trains are getting less and less numerous in China, at least it feels that way. This one can reach 350 km/h.


http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/night-city-dream/view/690584/

A "slow" Bombardier train (max 250 km/h):


http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/night-city-dream/view/690585/


http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/night-city-dream/view/690586/

Finally our train to Hangzhou arrives, a Siemens Velaro or CRH-3, if I am right. These trains are now the majority in all parts of China. EMUs may come in 18 or even more cars


http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/night-city-dream/view/690588/

Short movie:







http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/night-city-dream/view/690590/


http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/night-city-dream/view/690591/

6 .07. 2013.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

China's high speed rail system is so impressive. Large network, great speeds, beautiful stations and a good variety of train types and I like the uniform color of the CRH brand. On top of that they've decided to put the China Railways logo on all CRH trains. The CRH3 is still my favorite type followed by the CRH5. Great pictures!


----------



## HunanChina

He said, this feeling is so great.

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/XTG--kQ-H4E/?resourceId=0_06_02_99


----------



## FM 2258

^^

I've only been on CRH1 from Guangzhou to Shenzhen, I cannot wait to try the faster trains. Hopefully by the time I visit China again the trains will be running regularly at 350km/h.


----------



## flankerjun

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> I've only been on CRH1 from Guangzhou to Shenzhen, I cannot wait to try the faster trains. Hopefully by the time I visit China again the trains will be running regularly at 350km/h.


In China we call crh1 "BIG METRO",because crh1is like a metro train,it has a very low fault rate,but the comfort level is too low,especially through tunnels,it is horrible.CRH380AL is an impressive train.super quiet,stable and an outstanding gas tightness.your ears will not feel uncomfortable when through tunnels.


----------



## feisibuke

flankerjun said:


> In China we call crh1 "BIG METRO",because crh1is like a metro train,it has a very low fault rate,but the comfort level is too low,especially through tunnels,it is horrible.CRH380AL is an impressive train.super quiet,stable and an outstanding gas tightness.your ears will not feel uncomfortable when through tunnels.


CRH3 and CRH380B are very bad. (CRH5 is the worst, I would prefer to be in a hard seat of a normal train than in a CRH5. I am not going to talk about it.) I can never lock with the GPS satellites in the train cars, and there are no window sills or other facilities to place my GPS receiver. I have only once in CRH380C, it seems to be better designed. Anyway, the Japanese influenced CRH2 and CRH380A are the best.

So, CRH2/CRH380A >> CRH380C > CRH3/CRH380B > CRH1 >> CRH5


----------



## FM 2258

^^

I haven't ridden on them yet but from looks alone the CRH3(380B) and the CRH5 are my favorites.


----------



## Sopomon

^^

Gotta say that having problems with a vehicle due to being unable to set up a personal GPS system is hardly something that'd bother the average traveler though


----------



## xinxingren

feisibuke said:


> I can never lock with the GPS satellites in the train cars,


Have they now legalised the use of GPS?


----------



## maldini

How are these horizontal segments attached to the pillars? Do they just fit together nicely so that no glue is needed?


----------



## big-dog

*Harbin-Tianjin HSR to open on December 1st*

G412/409, G410/411

The whole trip will take about 7 hours.










by 中华火车迷部落


----------



## M-NL

chornedsnorkack said:


> And Shinkansen E4 16 car sets have 1634, being the biggest high speed trains anywhere.


That high seat count is also the result of 3+3 seating in unreserved standard class, which greatly reduces travel comfort. This together with the limited top speed are the main reasons for the accelerated withdrawal of these sets.


----------



## hmmwv

I'm sure they can fit a duplex but instead of engineering and testing a brand new car it's probably easier to just increase the frequency.


----------



## Silly_Walks

big-dog said:


> *Harbin-Tianjin HSR to open on December 1st*
> 
> G412/409, G410/411
> 
> The whole trip will take about 7 hours.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> by 中华火车迷部落


Do you know why it takes so long? The D train from Beijing only takes 8 hours. How come a 300 km/h G train to Tianjin is only 1 hour faster?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

What shall be the speed of Harbin-Shenyang-Yingkou-Dalian high speed railway this and next month?

It was opened in December 2012. Its speed was then 200 km/h.
It was only sped up to 300 km/h on 22th of April, 2013.

Shall Harbin-Shenyang high speed railway keep operating at full speed through the winter 2013/2014, or shall it be slowed down?
If so, when?

The distance Shenyang-Beijing is 703 km. Of which 404 km, Shenyang-Qinhuangdao, is a high speed railway of 200 km/h, and the remaining 299 km Qinhuangdao-Beijing is slow speed railway. The distance Shenyang-Tianjin is 689 km, of which 285 km, Qinhuangdao-Tianjin, is slow speed railway.

At present I see 18 D trains Shenyang-Beijing. Of these the fastest is D20 from Changchun, 4:41 with 1 stop (Suizhong North), and slowest is D52, 5:51 with 8 stops. Also 1 slow train is faster than D, namely T158, Harbin-Taizhou, takes just 5:34 - the next fastest slow train Shenyang-Beijing is T48 with 6:11.

There are now 4 D trains Shenyang-Tianjin, taking from 5:01 (D178 from Harbin, 4 stops) to 5:17 (D164 from Changchun, 6 stops). 2 of these 4 (D164 and D158) go on 10 km to Tianjin West - but although lots of trains originate from Tianjin West towards Jinan and beyond, for some reason neither of the trains from Shenyang continues there.

As of 1st of December, what shall be the best train time Shenyang-Tianjin, with 200 km/h to Qinhuangdao and 300 km/h Qinhuangdao-Tianjin?
At the same day, what shall be faster - Qinhuangdao-Beijing direct but on slow speed railway throughout, or Qinhuangdao-Tianjin-Beijing 300 km/h all the way?


----------



## hmmwv

Silly_Walks said:


> Do you know why it takes so long? The D train from Beijing only takes 8 hours. How come a 300 km/h G train to Tianjin is only 1 hour faster?


The section opened is only the Tianjin-Qinhuangdao PDL, you still have to travel through the older Qinhuangdao-Shenyang section and connecting to the already 350km/h Shenyang-Harbin line. So the only time saved is that ~260km section.


----------



## gdolniak

*Faster than a speeding bullet*

Newest article from The Economist about the High-speed railway in China.



> High-speed railways
> *Faster than a speeding bullet*
> 
> China’s new rail network, already the world’s longest, will soon stretch considerably farther
> Nov 9th 2013 | XINING |From the print edition
> 
> THE new high-speed railway line to Urumqi climbs hundreds of metres onto the Tibetan plateau before slicing past the valley where the Dalai Lama was born. It climbs to oxygen-starved altitudes and then descends to the edge of the Gobi desert for a final sprint of several hundred windblown kilometres across a Martian landscape. The line will reach higher than any other bullet-train track in the world and extend what is already by far the world’s longest high-speed rail network by nearly one-fifth compared with its current length. The challenge will be explaining why this particular stretch is necessary.
> 
> Record-breaking milestones have become routine in the breathtaking development of high-speed railways in China, known as gaotie. In just five years, since the first one connected Beijing with the nearby port of Tianjin in 2008, high-speed track in service has reached 10,000 kilometres (6,200 miles), more than in all of Europe. The network has expanded to link more than 100 cities. In December the last section was opened on the world’s longest gaotie line, stretching 2,400km from Beijing to Shenzhen, on the border with Hong Kong (see map). The network has confounded some sceptics who believed there would not be enough demand. High-speed trains carry almost 2m people daily, which is about one-third of the total number of rail passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most of China’s gaotie construction has focused on the country’s densely populated east and centre. The Beijing-Shenzhen line, which is due to be extended into Hong Kong by 2015, links half a dozen provinces and 28 cities. In 2009 work began on the section that will connect the north-west of the country, a line that could hardly be more different from those that criss-cross the booming east. It stretches 1,776km from Lanzhou, the capital of the western province of Gansu, to Urumqi, the capital of Xinjiang, an “autonomous region” bordering on Central Asia. Officials put the cost at 144 billion yuan ($24 billion); cheap perhaps compared with the 400-billion-yuan line from Beijing to Shenzhen, but it traverses such a vast stretch of barely inhabited terrain that land and rehousing costs are negligible.
> 
> Officials have given the project the ponderous name of the Lanxin Railway Second Double-Tracked Line. This is to distinguish it from a conventional line from Lanzhou to Xinjiang (the first syllables of which form the name Lanxin) that was completed in 1962. Oddly, however, it does not follow the same route. Instead of heading north from Lanzhou along the old Silk Road through Gansu, it detours into adjacent Qinghai province on the Tibetan plateau and opts for a far tougher route through the snowy Qilian Mountains before re-entering Gansu 480km later and picking up the old trail into Xinjiang.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reports in the official media about the new Lanxin line are for the most part silent about the reasons for this diversion. There is little economic pull between Qinghai and Xinjiang. Just one flight a day takes off from Xining, the capital of Qinghai, to Urumqi. There are as many as eight a day from Lanzhou. In 2011 China Daily, an English-language newspaper in Beijing, quoted an unnamed researcher from the China Academy of Railway Sciences as saying it would be difficult to make any money from the line. “It’s more of a political thing,” he said. “It’s more about national defence and ethnic unity.” State-controlled media sometimes refer to it as “a political line, an economic line and a line of happiness”. The order is important.
> 
> Officials often talk of the line’s intended role in promoting ethnic harmony. But it appears to be more about knitting the country together. Tibetan exiles regard Qinghai as part of historical Tibetan territory. Some Uighurs want to make Xinjiang an independent “East Turkestan”. Officials say terrorist threats have been directed at the Xinjiang leg, and a recent incident in Beijing’s Tiananmen Square has been blamed on Uighur “terrorists” (see article). When the gaotie line opens, which is expected in late 2014, it will incorporate into the network three provinces covering about 30% of China’s land area. It will be a grand statement of the network’s, and the government’s, reach. Within a few years, Tibet is likely to be the only province without a high-speed line. But this is because even the government appears to reckon that a bullet train to Lhasa would be too costly. Tibet was connected to the conventional network only in 2006 after a remarkable feat of engineering involving track laid on permafrost.
> 
> Even some residents of Qinghai and Xinjiang seem unclear about the new rail line, most of which looks almost complete. East of Xining in Hongya village, where the Dalai Lama was born, a farmer describing himself as a relative of the exiled Tibetan leader says he believes the elevated track at the bottom of the valley 40 minutes’ drive away leads to Lhasa. In Xinjiang some residents seem unaware that the track will go through Qinghai. Few talk of the possible delights of sitting on a bullet train for eight hours between Urumqi and Lanzhou. Even though it will cut the journey time from 22 hours, it will still be far quicker to fly. Only one large city—Xining—lies between. Other stops are mostly remote towns.
> 
> One obvious benefit for Qinghai, or at least its image-obsessed officials, is an excuse to spend lots of money on the construction of business parks and apartment blocks around lavish new railway stations. The county surrounding the Dalai Lama’s ancestral home is engaged in an orgy of construction in what it calls a “high-speed rail new district”. Another benefit will be easier access for tourists to vast fields of rape that bloom in July in an explosion of photogenic yellow in Menyuan county north of Xining. Menyuan’s new station will disgorge passengers into the middle of such a field that is tended by inmates of a nearby prison (its function disguised by the name “Haomen farm”).
> 
> In the Qilian Mountains in the north of Menyuan 2,000 workers are toiling in plummeting temperatures on a 16km-stretch of tunnels, joined by a bridge, at an altitude of more than 3,600 metres (nearly 12,000 feet), the highest point of any high-speed track in the world. The official media have called this the most difficult tunnel project in Chinese railway history, owing to the area’s unstable geology. In September a 5.1-magnitude earthquake suspended work for a day. Construction of this segment is due to finish in early 2014 after more than three years. Beyond the mountains, on the fringe of the Gobi desert, workers face another problem: winds so strong that they derailed a train on the existing railway line in 2007. China Daily said gusts hurled grit so violently that it shattered the windows of engineers’ cars when they inspected the area three years ago. In one stretch, affected by gale-force winds 250 days of the year, the bullet train will pass through a concrete tunnel built to protect it.
> 
> Of the three provinces traversed by the line, Xinjiang has the most reason to celebrate, its excitement evident in the building of a colossal airport-style bullet-train station just outside Urumqi, with a vast new development zone around it. The province has 40% of the country’s reserves of coal. Bottlenecks on the conventional Lanxin line have frustrated efforts to exploit huge demand for coal in the east. Once the bullet trains are running, the plan is to dedicate the old line to freight. Zhao Jian of Beijing Jiaotong University is sceptical. “It’s preposterous”, he says. “Why not just build a new freight line?” To China’s rail planners, ever in pursuit of grandiose modernity, that would be too simple.
> 
> The Economist: http://www.economist.com/news/china/21589447-chinas-new-rail-network-already-worlds-longest-will-soon-stretch-considerably-farther-faster


----------



## FM 2258

^^

I enjoyed reading that article. I think this rail line can only be a good thing for China. Proud of them for achieving such a feat.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> The section opened is only the Tianjin-Qinhuangdao PDL, you still have to travel through the older Qinhuangdao-Shenyang section and connecting to the already 350km/h Shenyang-Harbin line. So the only time saved is that ~260km section.


There are 10 trains daily Qinhuangdao-Beijing. 4 nonstops are 2:14 to 2:17 for 299 km. 5 stopping trains are 2:19 to 2:29 with 1 or 2 stops. D4538 goes to Beijing South, 308 km, in 2:31, and continues to Shijiazhuang (but originated in Qinhuangdao). 
There are 2 trains Qinhuangdao-Tianjin, D176 and D58, both with 1 stop at Tangshan and take 2:27 and 2:30 for 285 km.
A 300 km/h railway would still take over an hour. So the time saving would be less than a hour and a half.

Saving 1 hour to cut Harbin-Beijing from 8 to 7 hours would still take 7 hours. Saving 1 hour from under 5 hour Shenyang-Beijing or Shenyang-Tianjin would cut the time from 5 to under 4 or 3 and a half hours. And that might make a difference for someone from Shenyang...


----------



## Pansori

Does the HSR railway to Xinjiang really go to 3600m in altitude? That would be just... wow!


----------



## flankerjun

I have a China Rail map,update to 25 Oct, 2013, how can i upload,the file is 18 MB.super clear


----------



## Restless

flankerjun said:


> I have a China Rail map,update to 25 Oct, 2013, how can i upload,the file is 18 MB.super clear


Do you have anywhere to host it on the web?


----------



## xinxingren

hhzz said:


> The news said that it takes only 4 hours from Hengyang to Nanning,I really doubt it.


Another wild guess, Beijing - Guangzhou looks at a quick glance on a map, the same distance as Beijing-Liuzhou, and depending on number of stops the G trains get to Guangzhou between 8 and 9.5 hours. You only need another hour for a non-stop express (260km on the old line Liuzhou - Nanning).



kunming tiger said:


> From : Author : Time：2009-03-23
> The construction of Yun-Gui railway will get started within the year, the operation line being 754 kilometers from Kunming east station to Nanning station,
> ...
> The construction of Yun-Gui high-speed railway is to start at the end of this year, with construction period of 6 years and a total investment of 89.9 billion yuan.


Must take time to build those flash new stations in all the little wayside villages :nuts: 
It was only 5 years for 1400km Golmud - Lhasa thru some of the hardest construction conditions ^^


----------



## chornedsnorkack

xinxingren said:


> Another wild guess, Beijing - Guangzhou looks at a quick glance on a map, the same distance as Beijing-Liuzhou,


Hengyang-Guangzhou by old railway - 521 km, by new railway - 473 km. Actually, Hengyang-Guangzhou North on old railway - 494 km; Hengyang East-Guangzhou North on new railway - 428 km

Hengyang-Nanning by old railway - 793 km
Hengyang-Liuzhou by old railway - 538 km
Hengyang-Guilin by old railway - 362 km.


----------



## xinxingren

Another oddity: the HSR line from Hengyang forks southwestwards from the main north-south line 4km south of Hengyangdong, then just before crossing the Xiangjiang it is merged with lines from the old Hengyang central station. Will this line be clogged with local D trains?


----------



## hhzz

Simulation of the real load test run begins in Guangxi Coastal HSR Nanning-Qinzhou-Beihai-Fangchenggang on November 22.


----------



## foxmulder

hhzz said:


> Lanzhou-Xinjiang(Urumqi) HSR in Menyuan,3000 metres above sea level,Qinghai province.



They should use this line for speed record with CRH500. Due to high elevation, air resistance should be significantly less


----------



## Vertigo

Where can one find CRH train times online? I am looking for schedules on the Harbin - Shenyang high speed line. But when I try various online rail planners, I can only find trains which seem much too slow for a high speed line, taking more than 5 hours for about 500 kilometers. Is my assumption correct that CRH trains are not included in those planners?

Can one recognize high speed trains by the train number?

Are there also high speed trains already running between Shenyang and Beijing, on the conventional line?

Thanks a lot.


----------



## augst6

Highspeed train bears a prefix 'G' or 'C' (For intercity) before the train number (eg. G1)

There are also 'D' trains, which are about 200km/h



Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk


----------



## xinxingren

Vertigo said:


> Where can one find CRH train times online?


Everybody has their own favorite. I find these useful,
http://www.cnvol.com/
http://www.chinatrainguide.com/
http://train.huochepiao.com/

The first two give a list in order of departure time, the fast G trains jumbled in amongst the ordinary. 

Edit: I thought huochepiao sorts the list by speed so G trains appear first, but now they're back online it seems not. I have seen one that does.
The official China Rail site is at http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/ but even if you've passed the imperial exam their user interface is somewhat inscrutable...


----------



## fanspy

xinxingren said:


> Everybody has their own favorite. I find these useful,
> http://www.cnvol.com/
> http://www.chinatrainguide.com/
> http://train.huochepiao.com/
> 
> The first two give a list in order of departure time, the fast G trains jumbled in amongst the ordinary.
> 
> Edit: I thought huochepiao sorts the list by speed so G trains appear first, but now they're back online it seems not. I have seen one that does.
> The official China Rail site is at http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/ but even if you've passed the imperial exam their user interface is somewhat inscrutable...


 Right now there's maintenance on the website, so it says that I should go all the way to a ticket window to get what I want. lol


----------



## fanspy

Vertigo said:


> Where can one find CRH train times online? I am looking for schedules on the Harbin - Shenyang high speed line. But when I try various online rail planners, I can only find trains which seem much too slow for a high speed line, taking more than 5 hours for about 500 kilometers. Is my assumption correct that CRH trains are not included in those planners?
> 
> Can one recognize high speed trains by the train number?
> 
> Are there also high speed trains already running between Shenyang and Beijing, on the conventional line?
> 
> Thanks a lot.


 I just had a look at that website. You must have selected the older main stations, so you're getting the slower, older trains. The high speed trains stop at new stations like Harbin West.


----------



## xinxingren

If I type in just Harbin and Shenyang *trains.china.org* is listing trains between Harbin and Harbin East to/from Shenyang and Shenyang North, but missing all the G and D trains from Harbin West. Yet if I type in just Beijing and Guangzhou it gives me all the correct trains from Beijing west/central to Guangzhou south/central/east, with a bonus of some double listings for Guangzhou Nan and for Guangzhou South :bash:

If I type in just Harbin and Shenyang *huochepiao* gives me all the slow trains plus all the D trains from Harbin West, but no G trains. These train finders all seem to be a bit dodgy, which is why it pays to keep a few on hand to crosscheck ^^


----------



## doc7austin

My favourite is:
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/china-trains/
This site gives you also information about how many seats/berth are available.
Although the numbers are not always 100% correct (there seems to be a timelag), it is a good indicator.


----------



## _Night City Dream_

Beijing South railway station.

All pics were taken in the very late December 2012.

A small part of tracks.





My favorite CRH 380. Pity that I see them so rarely this time. Only Siemens trains are everywhere. 



My train was also Japanese-based but simpler.



All Japanese-based trains have screens protecting the pantographs of the trains from the side wind. That's not the case for Siemens trains by the way.





My train, front part:





Again my Kawasaki or Hitachi (?)



380th:



Leaving the platform.



Exit.



29.12.2013.


----------



## flankerjun

Tianjin to Tianjin West tunnel will open on December 1,and Tianjin to Qinhuangdao HSR will open on the same day.At the end of Dec,trains from Northeast to East will be on service.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> Tianjin to Tianjin West tunnel will open on December 1,and Tianjin to Qinhuangdao HSR will open on the same day.At the end of Dec,trains from Northeast to East will be on service.


Where in the East? Will trains travel Harbin-Shenyang-Qinhuangdao-Tianjin-Nanjing-Hangzhou-Fuzhou-Xiamen-Shenzhen next month?


----------



## foxmulder

> China, Romania to launch high-speed railway cooperation
> 
> BUCHAREST, Nov. 25 (Xinhua) -- Chinese Premier Li Keqiang and his Romanian counterpart Victor Ponta agreed on Monday that their two countries would cooperate in building high-speed railways in Romania.
> 
> After their talks, the two leaders also witnessed the signing of series of cooperation agreements, covering such fields as trade, investment and telecommunication, as well as electricity generation.
> 
> Li arrived here Monday for an official visit to Romania and a summit with leaders of Central and Eastern European (CEE) countries.


Chinese HSR development is an opportunity for developing countries to have reasonably priced modern transportation infrastructure. I hope more countries take advantage of it.


----------



## Galactic

xinxingren said:


> Edit: I thought huochepiao sorts the list by speed so G trains appear first, but now they're back online it seems not. I have seen one that does.
> The official China Rail site is at http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/ but even if you've passed the imperial exam their user interface is somewhat inscrutable...


Huochepiao does allow you to sort the the list by travel time; you just click the "Travel Time" column header. Likewise, you can sort by departure time by clicking the "Dept. Time" header and so on.


----------



## FM 2258

foxmulder said:


> Chinese HSR development is an opportunity for developing countries to have reasonably priced modern transportation infrastructure. *I hope more countries take advantage of it.*


*cough* ...like the United States... *cough*
:cheers:


----------



## kunming tiger

FM 2258 said:


> *cough* ...like the United States... *cough*
> :cheers:


 An American friend recently told me that HSR in the United States would face strong opposition from vested interests there, would that be true?


----------



## flankerjun

chornedsnorkack said:


> Where in the East? Will trains travel Harbin-Shenyang-Qinhuangdao-Tianjin-Nanjing-Hangzhou-Fuzhou-Xiamen-Shenzhen next month?


From Shenyang, Changchun or Harbin to Jinan ,Qingdao,Nanjing,Shanghai and Hangzhou


----------



## Sopomon

Is the rebar at the base of the pillars supposed to be visible like that?


----------



## xinxingren

doc7austin said:


> *Update on the Dali - Chuxiong - Kunming High Speed Railway*


Looks like typical lack of cordination between the railway planners and some other (expressway? irrigation?) planners :bash:
I'd say the visible rebar has been put there after as a downward extension of the square collar that's supposed to protect the actual pier at ground level.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

chornedsnorkack said:


> What shall be the schedule of high speed trains Tianjin-Shenyang in the beginning of December, like this Sunday?


Something appeared.
Is it correct that there shall be no D trains, but 4 G trains daily?
2 to Shenyang, 1 to Changchun, 1 to Harbin. Fastest time Tianjin West-Shenyang North 4:03 with 7 stops incl. Tianjin. Distance 671 km, of which 5 km are Tianjin West-Tianjin.


----------



## foxmulder

Sopomon said:


> Is the rebar at the base of the pillars supposed to be visible like that?


Obviously, they decided to change something there. They moved some earth after the construction of the pillar and now they are "updating" the structure according new earth level. If you look carefully, the new rebar is not the part of the pillar at all.


----------



## China Hand

phoenixboi08 said:


> Because someone asked a question...like 3 posts ago...calm down. hno:


No, it's the mockery and derision that always accompanies the topic.

If you all asked the simplest of questions:

"In the USA, would end-point to end-point travel times be shorter? Would travelers save money and time? Would they be able to reach their destination of choice one they disembark, and do so in a cheap and timely fashion?"

You would instantly find out why HSR won't work in the USA.

HSR won't work in the USA, because Americans don't want it.

I don't understand this intolerance of differing societal values. The Americans don't want HSR, so leave them be.


----------



## phoenixboi08

China Hand said:


> No, it's the mockery and derision that always accompanies the topic.
> 
> If you all asked the simplest of questions:
> 
> "In the USA, would end-point to end-point travel times be shorter? Would travelers save money and time? Would they be able to reach their destination of choice one they disembark, and do so in a cheap and timely fashion?"
> 
> You would instantly find out why HSR won't work in the USA.
> 
> HSR won't work in the USA, because Americans don't want it.
> 
> I don't understand this intolerance of differing societal values. The Americans don't want HSR, so leave them be.


That's fine. I just don't think it's the end of the world if someone asked one question is all. It'd be different if it was an entire page of comments.


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> Something appeared.
> Is it correct that there shall be no D trains, but 4 G trains daily?
> 2 to Shenyang, 1 to Changchun, 1 to Harbin.


5 D trains have been replaced with G trains.
According to my timetables these were the only D trains running those routes. There are still a couple of dozen K and T trains running these routes.
A quick and dirty translation of the official notice says

D177 Tianjin - Harbin West replaced with G410 Tianjin West - Harbin West.
D175 Tianjin - Shenyang replaced with G416 Tianjin West - Shenyang North*
D157 Tianjin - Shenyang replaced with G420 Tianjin West - Shenyang North*
D162 Tianjin West - Changchun replaced with G426 Tianjin West - Changchun
D56 Tianjin West - Dalian North replaced with G430 Tianjin West - Dalian North

* the two new G trains to Shenyang North run approx 4 hours earlier in the day.
All new G trains journey time approx 1 hour faster than the old D train. 
There are corresponding changes to trains coming back the other way. Finding these is left as an exercise for the gentle reader.

You can quibble over a few minutes here or there, I prefer to quibble over the standard of the bar service.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

China Hand said:


> "In the USA, would end-point to end-point travel times be shorter? Would travelers save money and time? Would they be able to reach their destination of choice one they disembark, and do so in a cheap and timely fashion?"


1. Yes. 
2. Yes.
3. Yes. 

Example? The Acela. 

The fact that rail now has 70% of the market share along the NEC shows that HSR can work in America. 

Yes, many Americans don't "want" HSR, because I can assure you that most Americans 1) have never seen an actual HSR and experienced its benefits 2) somehow believe that bullet-trains are simply steam-locos on crack. 

This isn't an intolerance of societal values--it is simply ignorance, and ignorance of such degree is bound to attract mockery.


----------



## kunming tiger

Silver Swordsman said:


> 1. Yes.
> 2. Yes.
> 3. Yes.
> 
> Example? The Acela.
> 
> The fact that rail now has 70% of the market share along the NEC shows that HSR can work in America.
> 
> Yes, many Americans don't "want" HSR, because I can assure you that most Americans 1) have never seen an actual HSR and experienced its benefits 2) somehow believe that bullet-trains are simply steam-locos on crack.
> 
> This isn't an intolerance of societal values--it is simply ignorance, and ignorance of such degree is bound to attract mockery.


 
So the perception of Chinese HSR in America is it's 18 century steam train technology with a new coat of paint?


----------



## FM 2258

Silver Swordsman said:


> 1. Yes.
> 2. Yes.
> 3. Yes.
> 
> Example? The Acela.
> 
> The fact that rail now has 70% of the market share along the NEC shows that HSR can work in America.
> 
> Yes, many Americans don't "want" HSR, because I can assure you that most Americans 1) have never seen an actual HSR and experienced its benefits 2) somehow believe that bullet-trains are simply steam-locos on crack.
> 
> This isn't an intolerance of societal values--it is simply ignorance, and ignorance of such degree is bound to attract mockery.


Very true....ignorance. I was the same way before I experienced clean, efficient and fast public transportation/high speed rail in China, Italy, Germany, Spain, Belgium and France. 

The skill and speed at which China has been implementing their high speed rail and local public transportation system is evidence that people do not have to wait 40 years for decent infrastructure to be built. As a U.S. citizen I'd like to see it here, the way China is building their high speed rail looks closest to what I feel will work here in the U.S.




kunming tiger said:


> So the perception of Chinese HSR in America is it's 18 century steam train technology with a new coat of paint?



Due to ignorance, people here have no idea what's going on in China.


----------



## xinxingren

FM 2258 said:


> As a U.S. citizen I'd like to see it here, the way China is building their high speed rail looks closest to what I feel will work here in the U.S.


Pity the US High Speed Rail thread has collapsed into a political slanging match




FM 2258 said:


> Due to ignorance, people here have no idea what's going on in China.


Due to ignorance the people in China have no idea what's going on in China. The current state of HSR in China appears to me to be a weird mix of 1950s socialist saviours with 19th century US railroad barons. What I fear is the condition of the tracks and rolling stock twenty, even ten years from now.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

xinxingren said:


> Due to ignorance the people in China have no idea what's going on in China. The current state of HSR in China appears to me to be a weird mix of 1950s socialist saviours with 19th century US railroad barons. What I fear is the condition of the tracks and rolling stock twenty, even ten years from now.


One new high speed railway has been running for ten years by now, although only six of them at high speed. Qinhuangdao-Shenyang was opened in 2003, and sped up in 2007.

What is the condition of Qinhuangdao-Shenyang tracks now?


----------



## phoenixboi08

xinxingren said:


> Pity the US High Speed Rail thread has collapsed into a political slanging match


Because all the "conversation" is happening elsewhere...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

xinxingren said:


> There are corresponding changes to trains coming back the other way. Finding these is left as an exercise for the gentle reader.


Shenyang-Tianjin West:
3 trains from Shenyang North, all in the morning
G418, 4:03 from 7:52 to 11:55
G428, 4:15 from 8:40 to 12:55
G412, 4:06 from 9:35 to 13:41
Tianjin all arrivals 9 minutes before Tianjin West.
1 train from Shenyang after noon:
G422, 4:18 from 14:24 to 18:42
G422 and G418 originate from Shenyang, the two later morning trains beyond:
G428 origin Changchun 6:40, arrival after 6:15 
G412 depart Changchun West 8:01, arrival after 5:40
G412 origin Harbin 6:34, arrival after 7:07
1 train from Dalian:
G429, depart 6:53, arrive 12:12 after 5:19


xinxingren said:


> You can quibble over a few minutes here or there, I prefer to quibble over the standard of the bar service.


Well, how is it?
As you note - most trains are early morning ones. Harbin - only train 6:34. Dalian - only train 6:53. Changchun - last train from Changchun West 8:01.
Can you have a good breakfast on the train?
Prices are
Dalian-Tianjin West second class 279 yuan 5 jiao, first class 458 yuan, VIP seat 548 yuan 5 jiao
Changchun-Tianjin West second class 338 yuan, first class 505 yuan 5 jiao, VIP seat 621 yuan 5 jiao
Harbin-Tianjin West second class 408 yuan 5 jiao, first class 618 yuan, VIP seat 748 yuan 5 jiao.

So, when you have to get up early, cold, hungry and sleepy from reaching the station through the dark, empty and cold city before the winter sunrise - can you eat a good breakfast in the restaurant car and resume comfortable sleep in VIP seat?


----------



## Sopomon

FM 2258 said:


> Due to ignorance, people here have no idea what's going on in China.


I'd probably replace China with 'the rest of the world at large'.


----------



## kunming tiger

Sopomon said:


> I'd probably replace China with 'the rest of the world at large'.


 It's not a problem confined to America either it pretty much is true for most people in most places. Over riding ignorance of things outside their limited personal experience. 

"Ignorance is bliss"

Be warned those who intend to distrub this blissfulness. 

You're neither wanted or needed.


----------



## hightower1

Nothing like travel to broaden the mind...


----------



## hhzz

The total length of 287 km Tianjin-Qinhuangdao HSR begins to operate in North China on December 1, 2013.
The travel time between two cities is expected to be reduced to one hour and 11 minutes from 2.5 hours previously.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> The total length of 287 km Tianjin-Qinhuangdao HSR begins to operate in North China on December 1, 2013.


Funny, I see the length quoted as 261 km.


hhzz said:


> The travel time between two cities is expected to be reduced to one hour and 11 minutes from 2.5 hours previously.


The expectation did not come true: the fastest train is G431, and it takes 1:18, not 1:11.
The fastest slow train now is Z193, which travels 285 km by old railway, and takes 2:32.


----------



## kunming tiger

hightower1 said:


> Nothing like travel to broaden the mind...


It's ABOUT THE ONLY THING THAT WORKS EVERY TIME.


----------



## doc7austin

> In the past year there have been *deadly high speed railway crashes in France* and Spain.


Could you please elaborate about this deadly high speed railway crash in France.
When and where did this happen? I am not aware of any. Suicide does not count.


----------



## Sopomon

urbanfan89 said:


> In the past year there have been deadly high speed railway crashes in France and Spain. Is this proof that the French and Spanish regimes are corrupt and incapable of delivering high quality? :weird:


That's a very shallow analysis of the situation and a cheap analogy. One needs to examine the reason for the crashes occurring, before making statements like that. Plus, both crashes in Europe were on non high speed lines.


----------



## fanspy

doc7austin said:


> Could you please elaborate about this deadly high speed railway crash in France.
> When and where did this happen? I am not aware of any. Suicide does not count.


It wasn't a high speed train crash, but a train crash nonetheless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brétigny-sur-Orge_train_crash


----------



## fanspy

Sopomon said:


> That's a very shallow analysis of the situation and a cheap analogy. One needs to examine the reason for the crashes occurring, before making statements like that. Plus, both crashes in Europe were on non high speed lines.


 The Spanish one was at a junction between high speed rail and normal rail, which means that it did happen on a high speed line.


----------



## doc7austin

> It wasn't a high speed train crash, but a train crash nonetheless


Well, I can list you many deadly train crashes in France over the last 150 years. The mentioned crash was on a traditional rail line. We are - however - speaking about High Speed Rail. 
France has a very good safety record when it comes to High Speed Rail.
A crash (like in Spain) would most likely not have happened in France.


----------



## hhzz

hi all,please stop these useless arguments in this thread.:bash:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> hi all,please stop these useless arguments in this thread.:bash:


Right, back to the more useful questions.
On 28th instant, which destinations shall have direct trains using Shenzhen-Xiamen high speed railway? Shall there be any trains whatsoever travelling Shenzhen-Fuzhou or Xiamen-Guangzhou?


----------



## hhzz

chornedsnorkack said:


> Right, back to the more useful questions.
> On 28th instant, which destinations shall have direct trains using Shenzhen-Xiamen high speed railway? Shall there be any trains whatsoever travelling Shenzhen-Fuzhou or Xiamen-Guangzhou?


shenzhen-fuzhou,shenzhen-xiamen,shenzhen-shanghai,guangzhou-fuzhou¡*¡*
The news said about it.we won't know about it exactly until the end of this year.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Regarding the unlisted lines, does anyone know the state of progress of Xian-Baoji high speed railway?


----------



## hhzz

chornedsnorkack said:


> Regarding the unlisted lines, does anyone know the state of progress of Xian-Baoji high speed railway?


Xi'an-Baoji HSR has been put into trial operation since December 2013.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Now that it is December, I´d list the lines which were supposed to open in 2013. I suppose some of them may be delayed and no one got around to updating the data, but I´d like to present the list so that someone could check which of them have been heard from

Xiamen-Shenzhen - *expected on 28th instant*
Xian-Baoji - *under testing*
Lichuan-Chongqing - *delayed to 2014*
Nanning-Qinzhou - *reported delayed*
Qinzhou-Fanchenggang
Qinzhou-Beihai
Maoming-Zhanjiang
Tianjin-Baoding
Guangzhou-Nanning - *also reported delayed*
Jiangyou-Chengdu-Leshan
Liuzhou-Nanning - *also reported delayed*
Wuhan suburban HSR:
Xianning
Huangshi
Huanggang
Zhengzhou suburban HSR:
Jiaozuo
Xuchang
Kaifeng
Beijing-Tangshan - *no due date*

Any others?


----------



## Norge78

doc7austin said:


> Could you please elaborate about this deadly *high speed railway crash* in France.
> When and where did this happen? I am not aware of any. Suicide does not count.


*Germany* and *Spain*. Both developed countries.

2013 rail accidents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_accidents_(2010%E2%80%93present)


----------



## hhzz

chornedsnorkack said:


> Now that it is December, I´d list the lines which were supposed to open in 2013. I suppose some of them may be delayed and no one got around to updating the data, but I´d like to present the list so that someone could check which of them have been heard from
> 
> Xiamen-Shenzhen - *expected on 28th instant*
> Xian-Baoji - *under testing*
> Lichuan-Chongqing - *delayed to 2014*
> Nanning-Qinzhou - *reported delayed*
> Qinzhou-Fanchenggang
> Qinzhou-Beihai
> Maoming-Zhanjiang
> Tianjin-Baoding
> Guangzhou-Nanning - *also reported delayed*
> Jiangyou-Chengdu-Leshan
> Liuzhou-Nanning - *also reported delayed*
> Wuhan suburban HSR:
> Xianning
> Huangshi
> Huanggang
> Zhengzhou suburban HSR:
> Jiaozuo
> Xuchang
> Kaifeng
> Beijing-Tangshan - *no due date*
> 
> Any others?


first of all,"Under testing"is not the Same as "trial operation".(Under testing-trail operation -officially operation )
Here is the list as I Know.
xiamen-shenzhen---Trail operation
xian-baoji---Trail operation 
liuzhou-nanning---Trail operation
hengyang-liuzhou---Trail operation
Guangxi Coastal HSR(nanning-qinzhou-fangcheng,qinzhou-beihai)---Trail operation


----------



## fanspy

Norge78 said:


> *Germany* and *Spain*. Both developed countries.
> 
> 2013 rail accidents
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_accidents_(2010–present)


From that list, it looks like the US has the most unsafe system and India has improved significantly.


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> Now that it is December, I´d list the lines which were supposed to open in 2013. [...] I´d like to present the list so that someone could check which of them have been heard from
> ...
> 2. Xian-Baoji - *under testing*
> ...


To which I'd add has anybody been to Baoji recently? I was there in 2012 May and can confirm this Google image of 2012 October 30 as being substantially correct. My brief ground searches also confirm what is not visible on this map, ie. no line construction towards the west. If Xi'an - Baoji and Xining (Lanzhou?) - Zhangye open about the same time we'll end up in the same situation as the Wuhan-Chongqing "HSR line open" with a section of classic rail in the middle. hno:


----------



## :jax:

According to Wikipedia the opening is expected in 2017. "The excluded middle" seems quite common paradigm for rail and metro (but the metros have the excuse of city centres being more tricky to pass through). Anyway according to these plans it is only a three years delay.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

So, to repeat the lines that have been heard of, and omitting for the moment the unheard of ones:

Shenzhen-Xiamen: trial operation, open 28th instant
Chongqing-Lichuan: trial operation, open 2014
Hengyang-Liuzhou: trial operation, suspected open 2014
Liuzhou-Nanning: trial operation, suspected open 2014
Nanning-Qinzhou: trial operation, suspected open 2014
Qinzhou-Beihai: trial operation, suspected open 2014
Qinzhou-Fanchenggang: trial operation, suspected open 2014
Xian-Baoji: trial operation

Are there any more specific news of Xian-Baoji?


----------



## dodge321

^^ I'll be going to Xi'an and Baoji in two weeks. Hope to ride on the new line then.


----------



## doc7austin

> open 2014


In China this normally means that a line open on December 30 of that particular year.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

doc7austin said:


> In China this normally means that a line open on December 30 of that particular year.


What could be appropriate wording to describe a line that opens on unspecified month between January and December 2014, inclusive?


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> What could be appropriate wording to describe a line that opens on unspecified month between January and December 2014, inclusive?


中国天机 
(translation for those whose browser doesn't show chinese characters： the inscrutable orient)


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Now the list of high speed rail lines due to open sometime in 2014:

Longhua-Futian
Lichuan-Chongqing - due in Snake year
Hangzhou-Changsha
Changsha-Kunming - reputed delayed
Guangzhou-Guiyang
Guiyang-Chengdu
Datong-Taiyuan-Xian
Zhangjiakou-Huh-hoto
Lanzhou-Ürümqi
Hefei-Fuzhou
Longyan-Nanping
Changsha-Xiangtan
Nanjing-Anqing
Harbin-Qiqihar
Hankou-Xiaogan
Dongguan-Huizhou
Foshan-Zhaoqing
Qingdao-Rongcheng
Chengdu-Chongqing


----------



## aquaticko

^^What's the planned speed for Lanzhou-Urumqi? It's a very long line.


----------



## hhzz

chornedsnorkack said:


> Now the list of high speed rail lines due to open sometime in 2014:
> 
> Longhua-Futian
> Lichuan-Chongqing - due in Snake year
> Hangzhou-Changsha
> Changsha-Kunming - reputed delayed
> Guangzhou-Guiyang
> Guiyang-Chengdu
> Datong-Taiyuan-Xian
> Zhangjiakou-Huh-hoto
> Lanzhou-Ürümqi
> Hefei-Fuzhou
> Longyan-Nanping
> Changsha-Xiangtan
> Nanjing-Anqing
> Harbin-Qiqihar
> Hankou-Xiaogan
> Dongguan-Huizhou
> Foshan-Zhaoqing
> Qingdao-Rongcheng
> Chengdu-Chongqing


I dont know where you get the news from.Only a few of lines you listed will open in 2014.


----------



## hhzz

aquaticko said:


> ^^What's the planned speed for Lanzhou-Urumqi? It's a very long line.


I think it's a line of ballastless track with 350km/h designed speed and 250km/h commercial speed.


----------



## diz

Took this last summer -- Shanghai-Hongqiao to Nanjing South


----------



## kunming tiger

hhzz said:


> I dont know where you get the news from.Only a few of lines you listed will open in 2014.


 Agreed forget about Changsha/Kunming HSR opeing in 2014 more like 2016.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> I dont know where you get the news from.Only a few of lines you listed will open in 2014.


From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China

Yes, I know it is out of date. But I do not know any better overview either.


----------



## flankerjun

hangzhou to changsha PDL，in jiangxi province，almost completed.


----------



## hhzz

Harbin-Dalian HSR in Jilin province,Northeast China.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> hangzhou to changsha PDL，in jiangxi province，almost completed.


Has it reached "trial operation"?
Is it on schedule to open within 2014?


----------



## flankerjun

chornedsnorkack said:


> Has it reached "trial operation"?
> Is it on schedule to open within 2014?


NOT YET.This pictures are about Changsha to Nanchang,Progress of this part is the fastest,still in electrical construction ,such as wires and signal system.Test will begin after the Chinese New Year,will open in September,Nanchang to Hangzhou will open at the end of 2014.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> NOT YET.This pictures are about Changsha to Nanchang,Progress of this part is the fastest,will open in September,Nanchang to Hangzhou will open at the end of 2014.


So Hangzhou-Kunming opens in at least 3 sections. Middle, Nanchang-Changsha in September 2014, then Hangzhou-Nanchang in December 2014, then Changsha-Guiyang-Kunming some time or several times after 2014?


----------



## flankerjun

chornedsnorkack said:


> So Hangzhou-Kunming opens in at least 3 sections. Middle, Nanchang-Changsha in September 2014, then Hangzhou-Nanchang in December 2014, then Changsha-Guiyang-Kunming some time or several times after 2014?


Changsha to Kunming will open in 2015 even 2016,digging tunnels which are more than 20km in west china is not a joke. Guizhou Yunan and other provinces in South-west china are the most Inaccessible,Karst is horrible for construction.


----------



## :jax:

But it will look stunningly beautiful on pictures when done...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> Changsha to Kunming will open in 2015 even 2016,digging tunnels which are more than 20km in west china is not a joke. Guizhou Yunan and other provinces in South-west china are the most Inaccessible,Karst is horrible for construction.


The Three Gorges are no joke either. Yichang-Lichuan is not served by any D trains - one T and the rest K.
What kind of trains can get though the Chongqing-Lichuan "high" speed railway when it opens the next month?


----------



## flankerjun

chornedsnorkack said:


> The Three Gorges are no joke either. Yichang-Lichuan is not served by any D trains - one T and the rest K.
> What kind of trains can get though the Chongqing-Lichuan "high" speed railway when it opens the next month?


There will be D,T and K trains,but D trains only for short distance,long distance such as shanghai to chengdu will open after lunar new year,Because Yichang TO Wanzhou line,part of shanghai to Chengdu,the signal system is for the normal trains,not the high speed trains,Changing signal is under construction.this work will complete after the lunar new year.


----------



## hhzz

The travel time from Hangzhou to Shenyang will cut to about 9.5 hours from 28 hours previously by the end of this year.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> There will be D,T and K trains,but D trains only for short distance,long distance such as shanghai to chengdu will open after lunar new year


Will there be any Z trains?


----------



## flankerjun

chornedsnorkack said:


> Will there be any Z trains?


I think there may be.NOW Z124/Z121 from chengdu to shanghai may change the route to this line,because it is shorter.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> The travel time from Hangzhou to Shenyang will cut to about 9.5 hours from 28 hours previously by the end of this year.


Shall Hangzhou have any direct trains to Dalian this year?


----------



## flankerjun

:jax: said:


> But it will look stunningly beautiful on pictures when done...


I think one reason is that Ballastless track in China HSR is quite common,it is clean,beautiful than the Ballast track.


----------



## hhzz

chornedsnorkack said:


> Shall Hangzhou have any direct trains to Dalian this year?


Not Sure about that.


----------



## foxmulder

hhzz said:


> Harbin-Dalian HSR in Jilin province,Northeast China.


Lovely picture, :cheers:


----------



## big-dog

New HSR routes will open from Shanghai Hongqiao Station on December 28th 2013

Shanghai Hongqiao - Harbin, "G" train 1 pair, fastest 12 hours 57 minutes
Shanghai Hongqiao - Changchun, "G" train 1 pair, fastest 11 hours 27 minutes
Shanghai Hongqiao - Shenyang North 4 pairs, fastest 9 hours 21 minutes
Shanghai Hongqiao - Shenzhen North, "D" train 4 pairs, fastest 11 hours 51 minutes










--metrofans


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> New HSR routes will open from Shanghai Hongqiao Station on December 28th 2013
> Shanghai Hongqiao - Harbin, "G" train 1 pair, fastest 12 hours 57 minutes


Now - 1 pair, K56 taking 1:07:43


big-dog said:


> Shanghai Hongqiao - Changchun, "G" train 1 pair, fastest 11 hours 27 minutes


Now - 4 pairs, all K. Fastest K56 to Harbin, 1:04:49 to Changchun. The other 3 are K516 to Changchun, K2084 to Tumen and K76 from Ningbo.


big-dog said:


> Shanghai Hongqiao - Shenyang North 4 pairs, fastest 9 hours 21 minutes


Now - 5 pairs, fastest K56 at 1:01:32. The fifth is K188 to Dandong.


big-dog said:


> Shanghai Hongqiao - Shenzhen North, "D" train 4 pairs, fastest 11 hours 51 minutes


Now - 3 pairs, namely 2 T trains, faster T211, 18:19, the third a K.
There are now 4 trains Shanghai-Guangzhou, fastest T99, at 15:57.
Shall there be any D trains Shanghai-Guangzhou South via Shenzhen this year?


----------



## ranshining

Today one can buy tickets for Dec 28th online, but the new trains don't seem to be in the system yet. Fastest trains to northeast are still the Ks.


----------



## gdolniak

big-dog said:


> New HSR routes will open from Shanghai Hongqiao Station on December 28th 2013
> 
> 
> [...]
> Shanghai Hongqiao - Shenzhen North, "D" train 4 pairs, fastest 11 hours 51 minutes
> 
> [...]
> 
> --metrofans


Is this really Shenzhen North Station in Shenzhen Longdong District (深圳北站) or Shenzhen Longgang Station (深圳龙岗站)? During the summer, many viaducts between those two stations weren't even build, so I'm a bit puzzled about the current situation.


----------



## xinxingren

big-dog said:


> New HSR routes will open from Shanghai Hongqiao Station on December 28th 2013


Chinese press is buzzing with the story, New Timetable 28 December includes 30 new or extended EMU trains G & D; 69 adjusted running times for ordinary trains, AFAICT just for the Shanghai bureau. Add in new mobile phone ticket ordering, new rules for Spring Festival bulk buying (including 20% refund fee) and the last days of 2013 could be interesting.

Singled out for special mention is Wuhan-Chongqing HSR -not- opening December 28 and no projected date.

And the Shenzhen station is quoted as 深圳北


----------



## gnatho

chornedsnorkack said:


> Now - 1 pair, K56 taking 1:07:43


From December 29th there will be a new pair. T72 will depart from Shanghai at 13:52 and arrive in Harbin at 14:15. The total time of the journey will be reduced to 24h23m.


----------



## hhzz

*Pictures from hongdou*

1.Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR constructions in duyun,Guizhou province.









2.Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR constructions in Guilin,Guangxi Autonomous Region.
(1).








(2).









3.Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR constructions in Hezhou,Guangxi Autonomous Region.
(1).








(2).









4.Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR constructions in Huanji,Guangdong province.


----------



## doc7austin

> T72 will depart from Shanghai at 13:52 and arrive in Harbin at 14:15.


Would the T-Train use any high-speed tracks?
I would guess old tracks between Shanghai and Tianjin and new tracks from Tianjin to Shenyang and old tracks Shenyang - Harbin.


----------



## silent_dragon

the vehicle with very huge load is incredible“
! i wonder how it was even to move that kind of load.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

doc7austin said:


> Would the T-Train use any high-speed tracks?
> I would guess old tracks between Shanghai and Tianjin and new tracks from Tianjin to Shenyang and old tracks Shenyang - Harbin.


Then why should it be called T? Overnight D trains do exist.


----------



## flankerjun

>


this picture is so wired，as far i know, i have not seen this type of girder,girder for 350km HSR weighs 900T,and far more stronger than this, this is half of a girder.


----------



## hhzz

flankerjun said:


> this picture is so wired，as far i know, i have not seen this type of girder,girder for 350km HSR weighs 900T,and far more stronger than this, this is half of a girder.


It's not wired at all.


----------



## hhzz

Delete


----------



## xinxingren

hhzz said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


*


flankerjun said:



this picture is so wired，as far i know, i have not seen this type of girder,girder for 350km HSR weighs 900T,and far more stronger than this, this is half of a girder.

Click to expand...


Yup, it's half a girder, see the tie bar ends on the left side. Look at the camber, maybe a tight curve ahead where the two track beds are laid separate, or a single track turnout.*


----------



## hhzz

Haven't heard from Yunnan-Guangxi HSR for a long time.There's a news here.

After three years' effort ,the total length of 18.2km Shilin tunnel in Yunnan-Guangxi HSR has been successfully run through on December 10th,2013 in Yunnan province,Southwest of China.
1.








2.








3.








4.


----------



## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> The Three Gorges are no joke either. Yichang-Lichuan is not served by any D trains - one T and the rest K.
> What kind of trains can get though the Chongqing-Lichuan "high" speed railway when it opens the next month?


Per today's Chongqing Commerce newspaper Chongqing-Lichuan railway will open on *Dec 28th*.

CRH2 will serve the new line with max speed 250 kmph.


----------



## xinxingren

Chengdu - Lichuan D2262
Chongqing North - Lichuan D2266
Chongqing North - Lichuan D2268
http://news.wuhan.soufun.com/2013-12-11/11654551.htm
Also story at Chongqing Morning News


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Does Chengdu-Lichuan go through Chongqing first or are there two separate lines for Chongqing-Lichuan and Chengdu-Lichuan?


----------



## xinxingren

Short answer, I don't know.
The longer answer involves most of the news media who have a copy of the new timetable but steadfastly refuse to tell us which stations the new trains stop at; and the fact that the 20 day prebuy period for tickets should tell us, but none of the booking systems I know how to work have yet heard of the new trains...


----------



## hhzz

Beijing-Guilin in 10 hours by high speed train on December 28th.


----------



## ranshining

The G trains from Shanghai to northeast China now appear on 12306 website for online booking after Dec 28.

https://kyfw.12306.cn/otn/leftTicket/init

Choose Shanghai (上海) for departure point (出发地) and say Shenyang (沈阳) for destination point (目的地), then pick a date after Dec 28. Only one of the five trains appears on Dec 28 though, perhaps some of the first runs will be reserved for the media/VIPs.

Shenzhen-Xiamen, Chengdu-Lichuan, Beijing-Guilin can't be seen yet.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> Beijing-Guilin in 10 hours by high speed train on December 28th.


Shall the trains terminate at Guilin this month, or continue to Liuzhou, Nanning, Qinzhou or Beihai?


----------



## hhzz

chornedsnorkack said:


> Shall the trains terminate at Guilin this month, or continue to Liuzhou, Nanning, Qinzhou or Beihai?


Only Guilin,no mention about Liuzhou and Nanning.
Qinzhou or Beihai,that's impossible for them.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> Per today's Chongqing Commerce newspaper Chongqing-Lichuan railway will open on *Dec 28th*.
> 
> CRH2 will serve the new line with max speed 250 kmph.


Is that the first 250 km/h railway since the Second Slowdown Campaign?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is that the first 250 km/h railway since the Second Slowdown Campaign?


The max designed speed is 250km/h but operating speed is limited to 200km/h just like any other none-G lines. Also interestingly it'll run 160km/h freight trains, and it's designed to have clearance to allow double stacked container cars.


----------



## xinxingren

hhzz said:


> Beijing-Guilin in 10 hours by high speed train on December 28th.


The Empire is controlled from Beijing.
We merchants and peasants are waiting for better speed Guangzhou-Guilin or Chengdu-Guilin.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

xinxingren said:


> The Empire is controlled from Beijing.
> We merchants and peasants are waiting for better speed Guangzhou-Guilin or Chengdu-Guilin.


There is still no train Beijing-Xiamen.


----------



## Pansori

hmmwv said:


> The max designed speed is 250km/h but operating speed is limited to 200km/h just like any other none-G lines. Also interestingly it'll run 160km/h freight trains, and it's designed to have clearance to allow double stacked container cars.


160km/h freight trains? Are there any pictures? I'd like to see what such a creation looks like.


----------



## big-dog

ranshining said:


> Today one can buy tickets for Dec 28th online, but the new trains don't seem to be in the system yet. Fastest trains to northeast are still the Ks.


it's now available on 12306.cn, i.e.

Shanghai Hongqiao - Harbin West, *2287 km*, 2nd class, RMB 898
Shanghai Hongqiao - Dalian North, 2nd class, RMB 787
Shanghai Hongqiao - Shenyang North, 2nd class, RMB 732
Shanghai Hongqiao - Changchun West, 2nd class, RMB 824
... ...

The official explanation for no sleeper class for the long haul HSRs:

1. Current cold weather train CRH380B doesn't have sleeper coach;
2. Passenger attendance concern for sleeper train's higher price;

source


----------



## hhzz

big-dog said:


> it's now available on 12306.cn, i.e.
> 
> Shanghai Hongqiao - Harbin West, *2287 km*, 2nd class, RMB 898


Beijing West-Guangzhou South *
2298 km,travel time 8 hours*,2nd class,RMB 862.
Why the ticket price is higher than the Beijing-Guangzhou?


----------



## big-dog

^^ I think it's the weather factor.

From project perspective it costs more to build the tracks under Northeast's frigid weather. From operation perspective trains are built to tolerate extremely cold weather and more electricity are used on a running training under the same weather.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> Beijing West-Guangzhou South *
> 2298 km,travel time 8 hours*,2nd class,RMB 862.
> Why the ticket price is higher than the Beijing-Guangzhou?


That 2298 km is the official distance.
Beijing West-Shenzhen North - official distance 2400 km, travel time 10 hours 16 minutes, 2nd class price 936 yuan 5 jiao.


----------



## hhzz

chornedsnorkack said:


> That 2298 km is the official distance.
> Beijing West-Shenzhen North - official distance 2400 km, travel time 10 hours 16 minutes, 2nd class price 936 yuan 5 jiao.


So what?They're all official distance.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> So what?They're all official distance.


On Beijing-Shanghai, the official distance Beijing South-Shanghai Hongqiao is 1318 km. Whereas Beijing-Shanghai is 1463 km. The official distance on HSR is much shorter because it is the real distance.

On Beijing-Guangzhou, the official distance Beijing West-Guangzhou is 2294 km. The official distance Beijing West-Guangzhou South is 2298 km. This suggests that this official distance is false.


----------



## hhzz

chornedsnorkack said:


> On Beijing-Shanghai, the official distance Beijing South-Shanghai Hongqiao is 1318 km. Whereas Beijing-Shanghai is 1463 km. The official distance on HSR is much shorter because it is the real distance.
> 
> On Beijing-Guangzhou, the official distance Beijing West-Guangzhou is 2294 km. The official distance Beijing West-Guangzhou South is 2298 km. This suggests that this official distance is false.


 Please tell me the real distance and the official distance of Shanghai hongqiao-Harbin West.There's nothing to do with Beijing South-Shanghai hongqiao.


----------



## hhzz

More Pictures of Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR from* hongdou*.

1.Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR constructions in duyun,Guizhou province.
(1).








(2).








(3).









2.Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR constructions in Guilin,Guangxi Autonomous Region.
(1).








(2).








(3).








(4).








(5).








(6).








(7).









3.Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR constructions in Hezhou,Guangxi Autonomous Region.
(1).








(2).








(3).








(4).








(5).








(6).









4.Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR constructions in Huanji,Guangdong province.
(1).








(2).


----------



## foxmulder

Thanks for the great pictures hhzz. That geography should be quite difficult to build a high speed rail route.


----------



## hhzz

foxmulder said:


> Thanks for the great pictures hhzz. That geography should be quite difficult to build a high speed rail route.


Right.China is very mountainous and no a high speed rail is easy to be built.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> it's now available on 12306.cn, i.e.
> 
> Shanghai Hongqiao - Harbin West, *2287 km*, 2nd class, RMB 898
> Shanghai Hongqiao - Dalian North, 2nd class, RMB 787
> Shanghai Hongqiao - Shenyang North, 2nd class, RMB 732
> Shanghai Hongqiao - Changchun West, 2nd class, RMB 824


Shanghai Hongqiao - Tianjin West, G216 and G218, like
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/chi...Shanghai Hongqiao&e=Tianjin West&d=2013-12-15

*1213 km*, 2nd class RMB 513 yuan 5 jiao

Tianjin West - Harbin West, G410, at
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/chi...410&s=Tianjin West&e=Harbin West&d=2013-12-15

*1209 km*, 2nd class RMB 408 yuan 5 jiao

total *2422 km*, not 2287, price RMB 922.


----------



## hhzz

chornedsnorkack said:


> Shanghai Hongqiao - Tianjin West, G216 and G218, like
> http://www.travelchinaguide.com/chi...Shanghai Hongqiao&e=Tianjin West&d=2013-12-15
> 
> *1213 km*, 2nd class RMB 513 yuan 5 jiao
> 
> Tianjin West - Harbin West, G410, at
> http://www.travelchinaguide.com/chi...410&s=Tianjin West&e=Harbin West&d=2013-12-15
> 
> *1209 km*, 2nd class RMB 408 yuan 5 jiao
> 
> total *2422 km*, not 2287, price RMB 922.


No doubt the ticket price is 898,not 922(513.5+408.5)


----------



## xinxingren

hhzz said:


> More Pictures of Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR from* hongdou*.
> Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR constructions in duyun,Guizhou province.


Thanks for the pix hhzz. I've been tracking this line on Google Earth through some gnarly country. Those photos really bring it to life.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

What is expected to be first high speed railway to Guiyang to open? Guiyang-Guangzhou, Guiyang-Changsha, Guiyang-Chongqing, Guiyang-Chengdu or Guiyang-Kunming?


----------



## urbanfan89

It's scarcely believeable, but the day after Jang Song Taek was led away, China and North Korea signed a deal to form Special Economic Zones along the border. The deal also includes upgrades to North Korean highways, and a 200km/h high speed railway from Shinuiju to Kaesong. Instead of calling them CRH the North Koreans will probably call their trains the Juche and claim the Dear Leader personally oversaw their design. Can anyone imagine the CRH1 in North Korean livery?


----------



## Sopomon

> North Korean livery?


Hundreds of photos of the dear leaders taken from different angles all over the sides of the train?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

urbanfan89 said:


> It's scarcely believeable, but the day after Jang Song Taek was led away, China and North Korea signed a deal to form Special Economic Zones along the border. The deal also includes upgrades to North Korean highways, and a 200km/h high speed railway from Shinuiju to Kaesong.


What are the opening dates of Shenyang-Dandong and Dandong-Kaesong high speed railways respectively?


----------



## urbanfan89

Shenyang to Dandong is scheduled for late 2015. And who knows what's going on in North Korea?


----------



## :jax:

urbanfan89 said:


> It's scarcely believeable, but the day after Jang Song Taek was led away, China and North Korea signed a deal to form Special Economic Zones along the border. The deal also includes upgrades to North Korean highways, and a 200km/h high speed railway from Shinuiju to Kaesong.


Yes, that was surprising. And just short of the grand prize, Shenyang-Seoul. Will this be a people/cargo line?

Any plans for HSR Dalian-Dandong?


----------



## urbanfan89

Doubtful North Korea will publish information about such large projects. State secrets, you see. North Korea even steals the rail cars used by China to deliver aid, and resells them back as scrap metal. How long until a high speed train is pilfered for valuable parts?

Dalian to Dandong is also scheduled to open in 2015. For both passengers and freight, with top speed of 250.


----------



## xinxingren

hhzz said:


> Please tell me the real distance and the official distance of Shanghai hongqiao-Harbin West.There's nothing to do with Beijing South-Shanghai hongqiao.


The *real* distance is the number of km the train wheels roll. The *official* distance is a number that CNR's computer spits out based on where it thinks the stations are, and this is the number used for calculating ticket prices. 

Several maps and timetables I posess suggest the difference in distances quoted above may be in large part due to the distance betweem Tianjin South and Tianjin West. They also suggest a HSR train should be able to go Shanghaihongqiao - Harbinxi without passing thru Tianjinxi. 12306.cn is the only online source I can so far find with the schedule for G1204. No distances are quoted, but it claims to go thru Tianjinxi. Go figure :weird:


----------



## kunming tiger

chornedsnorkack said:


> What is expected to be first high speed railway to Guiyang to open? Guiyang-Guangzhou, Guiyang-Changsha, Guiyang-Chongqing, Guiyang-Chengdu or Guiyang-Kunming?


 I would rate the Guiyang/Kunming HSR as the last to open on that list.


----------



## _Night City Dream_

Big-dog has written in the thread about Shanghai public transport that on December 28 China will get more new CRH lines. What will be the figure in kms for the new lines? I guess it's somwhat in the neighborhood of 3000 km of tracks?


----------



## _Night City Dream_

big-dog said:


> it's now available on 12306.cn, i.e.
> 
> Shanghai Hongqiao - Harbin West, *2287 km*, 2nd class, RMB 898
> [/URL]


David, is this figure for a brand new line?


----------



## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> Shanghai Hongqiao - Tianjin West, G216 and G218, like
> http://www.travelchinaguide.com/chi...Shanghai Hongqiao&e=Tianjin West&d=2013-12-15
> 
> *1213 km*, 2nd class RMB 513 yuan 5 jiao
> 
> Tianjin West - Harbin West, G410, at
> http://www.travelchinaguide.com/chi...410&s=Tianjin West&e=Harbin West&d=2013-12-15
> 
> *1209 km*, 2nd class RMB 408 yuan 5 jiao
> 
> total *2422 km*, not 2287, price RMB 922.


2287 km is the official distance by Harbin Railway Bureau (source)



_Night City Dream_ said:


> David, is this figure for a brand new line?


Not a new built line but some new connections. It goes with existing sections of Beijing-Shanghai, Tianjin-Shanhaiguan, Beijing-Harbin, Harbin-Dalian.


----------



## _Night City Dream_

I see. And is there any info on how many new lines in km are expected on December 28?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

_Night City Dream_ said:


> Big-dog has written in the thread about Shanghai public transport that on December 28 China will get more new CRH lines. What will be the figure in kms for the new lines? I guess it's somwhat in the neighborhood of 3000 km of tracks?


How do you get that?
Tianjin West-Qinhuangdao opened on 1st instant already.

On 28th instant, mentioned have been:
Xiamen-Shenzhen (502 km)
Lichuan-Chongqing

What are the last news about the lines:
Hengyang-Guilin-Liuzhou-Nanning-Qinzhou-Beihai
Xian-Baoji

Can any part of these open this month?


----------



## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> How do you get that?
> Tianjin West-Qinhuangdao opened on 1st instant already.
> 
> On 28th instant, mentioned have been:
> Xiamen-Shenzhen (502 km)
> Lichuan-Chongqing
> 
> What are the last news about the lines:
> Hengyang-Guilin-Liuzhou-Nanning-Qinzhou-Beihai
> Xian-Baoji
> 
> Can any part of these open this month?


Hengyang-Liuzhou and Liuzhou-Nanning HSR have connected on November 18 at Liuzhou Station. 

Guilin-Beijing HSR will open on December 28th and Guilin-Nanning HSR will open on December 30th.

Travel time of Beijing-Nanning will be shortened from 26-hour to around 10-hour.

Xinhua news


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> Current maintenance procedures and schedules dictates that passenger service at night is limited. I wonder what are other major HSR players' practices regarding running HSR at night.


No other major HSR player has the distances that would need them. Japan might, but instead it is 3 separate sections.


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

big-dog said:


> 2287 km is the official distance by Harbin Railway Bureau (source)
> 
> 
> 
> Not a new built line but some new connections. It goes with existing sections of Beijing-Shanghai, Tianjin-Shanhaiguan, Beijing-Harbin, Harbin-Dalian.


Is the Harbin - Beijing HSR open yet?


----------



## xinxingren

kunming tiger said:


> The production of passenger planes per year is limited and I'm guessing that while the same rule applies to HSR trains you can make them cheaper and faster.


One big difference in the operation, regulation, and hence manufacture, is that if something goes wrong with a plane you can't just stop and get out and fix it, or wait for a maintenance crew to come and tow you into the depot. But then Wenzhou showed us this isn't infallible even for HSR.


----------



## foxmulder

ampera00 said:


> kunming tiger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Demand for air travel is outpacing the supply of avaliable aircraft and will continue to do so until the C919 can enter the market. The production of passenger planes per year is limited and I'm guessing that while the same rule applies to HSR trains you can make them cheaper and faster.
> 
> As you pointed out there is already congestion at airports and airspace.
> 
> 
> 
> There is NO indication that C919 has anything to do with the supply and demand of aircraft worldwide (if there is a 'supply of aircraft issue', which I DO NOT believe). The C919 is several years away from production (3-5 years away) and that is NOT including international certification. (BTW Bombardier or Embraer will be happy to take order from China for their new planes which compete directly with C919, but ALREADY FLYING + CERTIFIED).
> 
> Chinese HSR should be considered part of infrastructure solution for China, no more no less. It has to live side by side with highway and airways.
Click to expand...

CSeries did not got the certificate yet. And Embraer does not have anything in C919 class. Even E195-E2 is scheduled for 2018 (and actually not a completely new design) will have capacity of ~140 at max.

Also c919 certification will include simultaneous certification for China and international users.

But I agree that there is not shortage of aircraft or aircraft producers 

Chinese HSR will kill regional airliners, no chance. Of course there will always be a niche market for them but compared to what is carried by HSR it will be insignificant in the future.


----------



## hhzz

The track laying has completed in Hangzhou-Changsha section of Shanghai-Kunming HSR in December 2013.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

I looked at the destinations from Hongqiao. Some of them raise serious eyebrows:
Wenzhou, with China Eastern, Juneyao and Shanghai
Jinan, with Shanghai 
Xuzhou, with Shanghai
Why are these lines flown?


----------



## kunming tiger

ampera00 said:


> kunming tiger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Demand for air travel is outpacing the supply of avaliable aircraft and will continue to do so until the C919 can enter the market. The production of passenger planes per year is limited and I'm guessing that while the same rule applies to HSR trains you can make them cheaper and faster.
> 
> As you pointed out there is already congestion at airports and airspace./QUOTE]
> 
> There is NO indication that C919 has anything to do with the supply and demand of aircraft worldwide (if there is a 'supply of aircraft issue', which I DO NOT believe). The C919 is several years away from production (3-5 years away) and that is NOT including international certification. (BTW Bombardier or Embraer will be happy to take order from China for their new planes which compete directly with C919, but ALREADY FLYING + CERTIFIED).
> 
> Chinese HSR should be considered part of infrastructure solution for China, no more no less. It has to live side by side with highway and airways.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a shortage of wide bodied/long distance aircraft to connect the emerging markets of West China to everywhere else . C919 in itself would not change that but its successors would. Having to fly eastwards to get a connecting flight westwards again is not optimal.
> 
> After the C919 enters service in China it would hopefully free up some of the larger aircraft so they could be relocated westwards.
> 
> Most of the SW is off the grid as far as long distance international routes are concerned. That is to say there are around 250 million people living here but getting a direct flight to anywhere except Asia was next to impossible until Si Chuan Airlines starting services a year ago. Even then they are flying out of just two cities.
> 
> When pressed on the issue the airlines always respond that they cannot or will not spare aircraft that would enable such routes to be set up and running. Apparrently you can fly to Vancouver, Sydney and Melbourne from Cheng Du and Chong Qing hardly small cities. Not ideal but a vast improvement.
Click to expand...


----------



## kunming tiger

hhzz said:


> The track laying has completed in Hangzhou-Changsha section of Shanghai-Kunming HSR in December 2013.


 Good news indeed so when can we expect the route to open?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

kunming tiger said:


> There is a shortage of wide bodied/long distance aircraft to connect the emerging markets of West China to everywhere else . C919 in itself would not change that but its successors would. Having to fly eastwards to get a connecting flight westwards again is not optimal.
> 
> After the C919 enters service in China it would hopefully free up some of the larger aircraft so they could be relocated westwards.


No, it cannot. A C919, CS300 or A320 congests an airport just as much as a bigger widebodied plane would. 

The only way widebody planes can be released to open new long distance routes is if they are now used to fly shorthaul routes, that can be cancelled because passengers move to HSR. Are there any such routes?

Are Shenzhen-Xiamen and Shenzhen-Fuzhou now flown by narrowbody or widebody planes?


kunming tiger said:


> Most of the SW is off the grid as far as long distance international routes are concerned. That is to say there are around 250 million people living here but getting a direct flight to anywhere except Asia was next to impossible until Si Chuan Airlines starting services a year ago. Even then they are flying out of just two cities.
> 
> When pressed on the issue the airlines always respond that they cannot or will not spare aircraft that would enable such routes to be set up and running.


Regarding international routes, look at this:
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=KMG&[email protected],[email protected]&MS=wls&DU=nm

2950 nm is the range of CSeries.


----------



## ampera00

kunming tiger said:


> ampera00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a shortage of wide bodied/long distance aircraft to connect the emerging markets of West China to everywhere else . C919 in itself would not change that but its successors would. Having to fly eastwards to get a connecting flight westwards again is not optimal.
> 
> After the C919 enters service in China it would hopefully free up some of the larger aircraft so they could be relocated westwards.
> 
> 
> 
> My point is: Why do you have to 'single out' C919 as 'the' solution ? Is it because it is Chinese-made/assembled aircraft?
> Just buy from established aircraft manufacturers (Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer, Sukhoi etc) if you believe more aircraft is a solution. They will be happy to get the BIG order. And BTW Airbus A320 is already assembled in China anyway ....
> 
> PS: we still have to see if C919 can compete with aircraft from established manufacturers. Well, we still have to see what 'the planned' C919 will look like anyway ....
Click to expand...


----------



## xinxingren

hhzz said:


> The track laying has completed in Hangzhou-Changsha section of Shanghai-Kunming HSR in December 2013.


A posed photo like that usually rates a paragraph somewhere, but Google News hasn't been told yet. I know it doesn't really matter, but my idle curiosity asks, Where was that "driving the last spike"?


----------



## _Night City Dream_

chornedsnorkack said:


> Something China needs, and misses, is high speed railways open at night.


I was coming back to Shanghai from Hangzhou one late evening. It was the last train. I have to say throughout the day the line is usually very very busy, tickets often get quickly sold out.

So, we were going back to Shanghai and I noticed 6 cars all one after another were empty. Several cars had some 10 persons.

I guess it would be to costly and not at all economically viable to run trains at night given that they consume too much power compared to ordinary trains.


----------



## _Night City Dream_

Can anyone still answer my question about the total of tracks in km to be added to the HSR network in China for this year?


----------



## hhzz

_Night City Dream_ said:


> Can anyone still answer my question about the total of tracks in km to be added to the HSR network in China for this year?


we won't know it until the official figures to be released.Here is my personal calculation.

Nanjing-Hangzhou-Ningbo 398km
Xiangtang-Putian 632km
Tianjin-Qinhuangdao 257km
Shenzhen-Xiamen 502km
Xi'an-Baoji 138km
Hengyang-Liuzhou 497km
Liuzhou-Nanning 226km
Nanning-Qinzhou-Fangchenggang 161km
Qinzhou-Beihai 99km
Chongqing-Lichuan 264km

Total:3174km


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> we won't know it until the official figures to be released.Here is my personal calculation.
> Total:3174km


Would you count Panjin-Yingkou?


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> I looked at the destinations from Hongqiao. Some of them raise serious eyebrows:
> Wenzhou, with China Eastern, Juneyao and Shanghai
> Jinan, with Shanghai
> Xuzhou, with Shanghai
> Why are these lines flown?


Presumably they were being flown before HSR, and now there is still sufficient demand to keep them flying, perhaps with less planes per day, or planes at different times from HSR. I just noticed people asking the same question for Nanchang - Fuzhou & Xiamen


----------



## FM 2258

^^

I notice there is still a flight from Shanghai Pudong to Nanjing. I have a feeling once high speed rail reaches capacity, airlines will get more business. I might be wrong but it seems like people in China are getting wealthier as the years go on.


----------



## hhzz

chornedsnorkack said:


> Would you count Panjin-Yingkou?


Ok,I'll add it in.


> we won't know it until the official figures to be released.Here is my personal calculation.
> 
> Nanjing-Hangzhou-Ningbo 398km
> Xiangtang-Putian 632km
> Tianjin-Qinhuangdao 257km
> Shenzhen-Xiamen 502km
> Xi'an-Baoji 138km
> Hengyang-Liuzhou 497km
> Liuzhou-Nanning 226km
> Nanning-Qinzhou-Fangchenggang 161km
> Qinzhou-Beihai 99km
> Chongqing-Lichuan 264km
> 
> Total:3174km


Panjin-Yingkou 89km
Wuhan-Xianning 90km

Total:3174 +89 +90=3353km


----------



## _Night City Dream_

Man, this is much more than all Japan has got now, twice more than that in Germany and 30% more than what France can boast!!


----------



## _Night City Dream_

hhzz said:


> we won't know it until the official figures to be released.Here is my personal calculation.
> 
> Nanjing-Hangzhou-Ningbo 398km
> Xiangtang-Putian 632km
> Tianjin-Qinhuangdao 257km
> Shenzhen-Xiamen 502km
> Xi'an-Baoji 138km
> Hengyang-Liuzhou 497km
> Liuzhou-Nanning 226km
> Nanning-Qinzhou-Fangchenggang 161km
> Qinzhou-Beihai 99km
> Chongqing-Lichuan 264km
> 
> Total:3174km


Are those brand new lines?
Talking about the first line you've mentioned - Nanjing - Hangzhou - Ningbo, is it a brand new line all in all or does it include the existing line between Nanjing and Hanzghou via Shanghai?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> Ok,I'll add it in.
> 
> Panjin-Yingkou 89km
> Wuhan-Xianning 90km
> 
> Total:3174 +89 +90=3353km


Should Pi county west-Pengzhou high speed railway also be counted in 2013?


----------



## hhzz

Slagathor said:


> That's great news. I was in Guilin and Yangshuo in July 2012 and it was a bit tricky to get there. A high speed train would be a huge improvement!


Guilin will have high speed trains operation at the end of this month,and Yangshuo have to wait until Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR completion.



chornedsnorkack said:


> Should Pi county west-Pengzhou high speed railway also be counted in 2013?


Which line is it?Never heard about it.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> Which line is it?Never heard about it.


It is a new branch of Chengdu-Pi county west-Dujiangyan high speed railway.


----------



## big-dog

^^ it's called Chengdu-Pengzhou fast rail, a 21 km fast commuter rail, design speed 200kmph, initial speed 120 kmph.


----------



## foxmulder

hhzz said:


> Datong-Xi'an HSR constructions in North China,December 2013.
> 1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---*From peoplerail.com*



This line will be great for the connection between these two points. It will be a five fold decrease from ~16hr to ~3hr.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> This line will be great for the connection between these two points. It will be a five fold decrease from ~16hr to ~3hr.


It shall also connect both via Taiyuan. 
I see that there are now 9 trains Taiyuan to Xian, taking between 8:17 and 11:51, and 7 trains Taiyuan to Datong, taking between 5:24 and 6:10. What shall be the trip time Taiyuan-Xian by high speed railway?
Also, how is the progress of Xian-Baoji?


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> Also, how is the progress of Xian-Baoji?



This story says running speed tests were OK as of December 17


----------



## 33Hz

What's the design lifetime of the many concrete viaducts that are being built on these lines?


----------



## foxmulder

33Hz said:


> What's the design lifetime of the many concrete viaducts that are being built on these lines?


100 years.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

xinxingren said:


> This story says running speed tests were OK as of December 17


Are they advanced far enough to allow opening for scheduled service this month?


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

So after 100 years they will tear down everything?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> So after 100 years they will tear down everything?


What happens to railways at the end of their design lifetime?
The whole Beijing-Shanghai railway save the Nanjing bridge was completed by 1912. Have the bridges and viaducts reached their end of design lifetime? And is China tearing it down?


----------



## big-dog

^^ the Nanjing Yangtze River railway/road bridge was built in Dec 1968. I don't think I can see a railway bridge/viaduct in China which was built in 1912.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> ^^ the Nanjing Yangtze River railway/road bridge was built in Dec 1968.


As I said. It was built long after all the rest.


big-dog said:


> I don't think I can see a railway bridge/viaduct in China which was built in 1912.


The mainlines are like:
Beijing-Tianjin built 1897-1900
Beijing-Hankou built 1897-1906
Shanghai-Nanjing built 1905-1908
Tianjin-Pukou built 1908-1912

These must have had many bridges and viaducts because it was only Yangtze that was unbridged and crossed by ferries. For example both Beijing-Hankou and Tianjin-Pukou had to have bridges over Huanghe.

What happened to the original bridges and viaducts?
How old are the bridges and viaducts that now stand on the old railways?
And how were they built?


----------



## DvW

Not sure if someone heard of it before, I just read about it today:



> DEC. 22, 2013, 11:45 AM
> 
> *This Insane Chinese Concept Train Doesn't Need To Stop At Stations To Pick Up Passengers*
> 
> Atrain in motion is a train carrying out its purpose. So why bother stopping at stations?!
> 
> That's the idea behind this concept train from China. Check out the video below which demonstrates how it works: Passengers step onto a compartment platform above an incoming train, which is then snagged by the train as it moves through the platform. At the next station, anyone wanting to get off moves up into the compartment, which is then snagged by the station. The train itself never stops, it simply trades embarkation capsules as its moves through a station, giving passengers a window of time to board without the train needing to stop.


Source: http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-train-doesnt-stop-at-stations-2013-12


----------



## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> The mainlines are like:
> Beijing-Tianjin built 1897-1900
> Beijing-Hankou built 1897-1906
> Shanghai-Nanjing built 1905-1908
> Tianjin-Pukou built 1908-1912
> 
> These must have had many bridges and viaducts because it was only Yangtze that was unbridged and crossed by ferries. For example both Beijing-Hankou and Tianjin-Pukou had to have bridges over Huanghe.
> 
> What happened to the original bridges and viaducts?
> How old are the bridges and viaducts that now stand on the old railways?
> And how were they built?


Even they were originally built around 1912 all the bridges had to be replaced long time ago.


----------



## doc7austin

Hmmm, today is December 23.
The Changsha-Guilin and Shenzhen-Xiamen are supposed to open on December 28/30.
So, does anyone know when the new train schedules are released?


----------



## Sunfuns

Well built railway infrastructure often lasts far longer than the design lifetime, some of the tunnels and viaducts built in England in the late 19th century are still in heavy use. Of course maintenance is needed and from time to time parts of the line need to be rebuilt completely. Long periods of insufficient maintenance tends to lead to accumulating speed restrictions. I see no particular reason to think it will be different in China.


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> The whole Beijing-Shanghai railway save the Nanjing bridge was completed by 1912. Have the bridges and viaducts reached their end of design lifetime? And is China tearing it down?


Since 1912 there were nearly forty years of war in that region of China. Railways were blown up, and sabotaged by all factions to prevent the "enemy" using them. One of the first jobs of the PRC government in the early 1950s was to rebuild the railways. So a lot of that infrastructure is maybe only fifty years old.

Before the current craze for HSR took hold CNR had been upgrading many main lines to 160km/hr standard. This ended up with many small bridges and tunnels being replaced by new ones a little distance away. Tearing down and rebuilding cannot be part of the life of a working railway in China because their running schedules are full.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

xinxingren said:


> Since 1912 there were nearly forty years of war in that region of China. Railways were blown up, and sabotaged by all factions to prevent the "enemy" using them. One of the first jobs of the PRC government in the early 1950s was to rebuild the railways. So a lot of that infrastructure is maybe only fifty years old.


But a lot of the infrastructure was rebuilt in a hurry, to get it running. For example Shanghai-Hangzhou railway, that had been built 1906 to 1909, was damaged by war in 1949 - but the railway was rebuilt in 1950. 
So a lot of the infrastructure was built over 60 years ago, before 1953, in a hurry to get the traffic through and repair infrastructure that was already then 40 year old.


xinxingren said:


> Before the current craze for HSR took hold CNR had been upgrading many main lines to 160km/hr standard. This ended up with many small bridges and tunnels being replaced by new ones a little distance away. Tearing down and rebuilding cannot be part of the life of a working railway in China because their running schedules are full.


Yes, the schedules have been full for 60 years. So how did the Chinese manage to upgrade the railways while they were full all the time?
Also, have any old railways been upgraded after Sixth Speedup Campaign in 2007?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> As I said. It was built long after all the rest.
> 
> 
> The mainlines are like:
> Beijing-Tianjin built 1897-1900
> Beijing-Hankou built 1897-1906
> Shanghai-Nanjing built 1905-1908
> Tianjin-Pukou built 1908-1912
> 
> These must have had many bridges and viaducts because it was only Yangtze that was unbridged and crossed by ferries. For example both Beijing-Hankou and Tianjin-Pukou had to have bridges over Huanghe.
> 
> What happened to the original bridges and viaducts?
> How old are the bridges and viaducts that now stand on the old railways?
> And how were they built?


The Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge built in 1968 is the first railway bridge over Yangtze.

The first railway bridge over Yellow River is the Pinghan Railway Zhenzhou Yellow River Bridge is the first railway crossing and was built in 1905, it was converted to automobile bridge in 1969 and torn down in 1987. Earliest currently standing bridge is the Lanzhou-Urumqi Railway Yellow River Bridge which was built in 1955.


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> Yes, the schedules have been full for 60 years. So how did the Chinese manage to upgrade the railways while they were full all the time?


They built new lines out to one side. If the new line was full double track electrified replacement, they then abandoned the old line. Otherwise you end up with a "double" track, the two lines up to a kilometre apart.



chornedsnorkack said:


> Also, have any old railways been upgraded after Sixth Speedup Campaign in 2007?


Has all the work of the Sixth Speedup Campaign been finished? Perhaps not. Xining - Golmud was supposed to be doubled, electrified, and straightened to 160km/hr for the opening of the line to Lhasa in 2006. Except for the Guanjiao tunnel which still isn't finished AFAICT.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> The Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge built in 1968 is the first railway bridge over Yangtze.


And the Wuhan bridge built in 1957 is?


hmmwv said:


> The first railway bridge over Yellow River is the Pinghan Railway Zhenzhou Yellow River Bridge is the first railway crossing and was built in 1905, it was converted to automobile bridge in 1969 and torn down in 1987.


So that´s an example of a bridge that was abandoned, then demolished.
Is its 1960s railway replacement in use, or has it been replaced in its turn?


hmmwv said:


> Earliest currently standing bridge is the Lanzhou-Urumqi Railway Yellow River Bridge which was built in 1955.


The Binzhou Bridge on Transmanchurian Railway, over Sungari in Harbin, is built in 1901 and is standing. Also, the whole Transmanchurian is double track now, and was not such in 1901.

An example of high speed mainline: Kowloon-Canton railway.
It was originally built 1906 to 1911 - as single track, unelectrified line.

The section Kowloon to Lo Wu was turned to double track electric railway 1982-1984. The section Lo Wu to Canton was double tracked 1984-1987, but was NOT at the time electrified. It was then the first double track line in Guangdong (but apparently not in China).
The northern section started to be tripled from 1991 (do not now find when tripling was completed). It was electrified by 1998. And then it was quadrupled 2005-2007 - being then the first quadruple railway in China.

Being more than double line was supposed to have been highly useful to speed up traffic on the railway, because getting express trains past slow freight or passenger trains is somewhat complicated on double tracks. Guangzhou-Shenzhen section was sped up to 200 km/h 1998 when the line was certainly not quadruple - at most triple. It has since fallen victim to Second Slowdown Campaign.

Have any other formerly double track lines been upgraded to three or more tracks after 2007?

China certainly has single track lines remaining. Like Nanjing-Qidong railway, which is due to be doubled and electrified soon... and the speed is supposed to more than double thereby. Or Pinghu-Nanshan railway that also is single track unelectrified railway.


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> China certainly has single track lines remaining.


Like Chengdu - Kunming. Not completed until 1971, electrified 2001, double tracking started on the easy bits, then abandoned when HSR proposed. Double tracking abandoned that is, the line itself is too important for access to the Panzhihua mines, and the Xichang satellite launch center. The first HSR plan I saw was straight down the middle line of the old 1953 plans, Leshan, Yibin, Suijiang, Dongchuan, Songming. Since then however, this line seems to have been sucked back into the four up and four across plan, then lost in the mountains of Guizhou ...


----------



## dimlys1994

Today on Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...view/view/chinese-rail-projects-approved.html
> 
> *Chinese rail projects approved*
> 24 Dec 2013
> 
> CHINA: The final 527 km of the Southern Xinjiang line between Aksu and Korla opened for traffic on December 5 with the departure of a freight train from Aksu. The 1449 km line has been built in stages with the fiorst phase opening in 1984. It is designed for 160 km/h operation.
> 
> Construction of the Yancheng – Lianyungang railway will start soon. Expected to cost 26bn yuan, it will include 234 km of double track and 76 km of single-track branch, with 12 stations and 90 bridges and viaducts totalling 149 km. Primarily intended for passenger services, the line will be designed for 200 km/h running. Opening is planned for the end of 2017, along with the Qingdao – Lianyungang and
> 
> Shanghai – Nantong lines which will together form a coastal route linking the Shandong peninsula with the Yangtse delta.
> 
> The National Development & Reform Commission has confirmed plans for the 224 km Huanghua – Dajiawa line to improve links around the Bo Hai coast for passenger and coal transport. The route starts at Huanghua Nan and runs through Cangzhou, Bingzhou and Dong-ying, crossing the Yellow River at Datianjia and heading east to Weifang and Dajiawa.
> 
> A Lianyungang – Zhenjiang line will run for 312 km along the coast of Jiangsu province. The planned 420 km Nanchang – Ganzhou line would have stations at Xiangtang, Fengcheng, Zhangshu, Xingan, Xiajiang, Ji’an, Taihe, Wan’an and Xingguo.
> 
> A 574 km line would run from Yinchuan to Xi’an, and include double tracking of sections of the 266 km line from Pingliang to Xi’an.
> 
> A 366 km line between Quzhou and Ningde costing 30·5bn yuan has been approved, as well as work to enhance capacity of the E’mei to Mi’yi section of the Chengdu – Kunming railway.


----------



## ranshining

Shenzhen - Xiamen tickets are finally up for sale, 20 pairs of D trains in total. Most go to Fuzhou, some continue further to Wenzhou or Hangzhou.

4 of them continue all the way to Shanghai for a total travel time of 12 hours or more. Running slightly faster the other way with D2287 leaving Shanghai Hongqiao at 6:25 reaching Shenzhen North at 18:16. 

There is also one pair D2289/90 to Nanjing bypassing Shanghai with total time a bit under 13 hours.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> And the Wuhan bridge built in 1957 is?
> 
> So that´s an example of a bridge that was abandoned, then demolished.
> Is its 1960s railway replacement in use, or has it been replaced in its turn?
> 
> The Binzhou Bridge on Transmanchurian Railway, over Sungari in Harbin, is built in 1901 and is standing. Also, the whole Transmanchurian is double track now, and was not such in 1901.


You are correct I forgot about the Wuhan bridge. After the old Zhenzhou bridge was demolished a new one was built as its replacement.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

ranshining said:


> Shenzhen - Xiamen tickets are finally up for sale, 20 pairs of D trains in total. Most go to Fuzhou, some continue further to Wenzhou or Hangzhou.
> 
> 4 of them continue all the way to Shanghai for a total travel time of 12 hours or more.
> There is also one pair D2289/90 to Nanjing bypassing Shanghai with total time a bit under 13 hours.


Do any of the 20 continue to Guangzhou?


----------



## Sunfuns

I just came upon this map of Chinese high speed rail lines on a Spanish rail blog: http://ravch.geotren.es

Current as of December 1st 2013 (only lines in operation shown). The best map I've seen anywhere.


----------



## Pansori

Sunfuns said:


> I just came upon this map of Chinese high speed rail lines on a Spanish rail blog: http://ravch.geotren.es
> 
> Current as of December 1st 2013 (only lines in operation shown). The best map I've seen anywhere.


Isn't there a better map in Wikipedia? Unlike the map you linked to it does show existing paralel lines (such as Shanghai-Nanjing or Beijing-Tianjin). Guangshen line is missing altogether. It's not a great map.

Here is Wikipiedia map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Rail_map_of_China.svg


----------



## Sunfuns

Pansori said:


> Isn't there a better map in Wikipedia? Unlike the map you linked to it does show existing paralel lines (such as Shanghai-Nanjing or Beijing-Tianjin). Guangshen line is missing altogether. It's not a great map.
> 
> Here is Wikipiedia map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Rail_map_of_China.svg


I wasn't aware of the map you posted. Which wikipedia article is it from? All the rail information (particularly about China) is so fragmented there with multiple similar articles… hno:

As for the map I posted I think it's useful to also have a look at new HS lines only. Easier to see where the gaps are and which routes are completed already.

Guangshen line runs from which city to which city and at what speed?


----------



## Pansori

Sunfuns said:


> I wasn't aware of the map you posted. Which wikipedia article is it from? All the rail information (particularly about China) is so fragmented there with multiple similar articles… hno:
> 
> As for the map I posted I think it's useful to also have a look at new HS lines only. Easier to see where the gaps are and which routes are completed already.
> 
> Guangshen line runs from which city to which city and at what speed?


The map is from the main China HSR article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China

Guangshen line is runs from Shenzhen to Guangzhou via Dongguan at up to 200km/h. I guess they didn't include it due to the same reason as other parallel lines even though it's a completely separate line and is not even near the new 350km/h line.


----------



## xinxingren

Pansori said:


> The map is from the main China HSR article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China
> 
> Guangshen line is runs from Shenzhen to Guangzhou via Dongguan at up to 200km/h. I guess they didn't include it due to the same reason as other parallel lines even though it's a completely separate line and is not even near the new 350km/h line.


I thought that "old" Guangshen line was just a "standard" line that had been upgraded in one of the early Speedup programs, so it wouldn't now rate as HSR.

Problem with most Wikimedia maps, they are historic documents. E.g. this one shows a number of lines in orange as "upgraded and other" lines with CRH service. Certainly they were in the Speedup programs, but upgrading work stopped in many places when new HSR lines started to be built parallel.


----------



## Pansori

xinxingren said:


> I thought that "old" Guangshen line was just a "standard" line that had been upgraded in one of the early Speedup programs, so it wouldn't now rate as HSR.


What is the precise definition of HSR in China?

If I'm not mistaken Gaungshen line was the first HSR line in China with service speeds up to 200km/h. Therefore it should be shown on the map as a 200km/h line.

Not sure if it's the same in China but according to EU definition of HSR it is any *new* line designed for 250km/h speeds and above or any *upgraded* line capable of 200km/h speeds and above. So according to this definition Guangshen would actually count as a HSR while new lines capable of 200km/h (such as Guangzhou-Zhuhai ICL) would not count as HSR. It may be slightly different in China though. Not that it makes any difference in real life.


----------



## hmmwv

Pansori said:


> What is the precise definition of HSR in China?
> 
> If I'm not mistaken Gaungshen line was the first HSR line in China with service speeds up to 200km/h. Therefore it should be shown on the map as a 200km/h line.
> 
> Not sure if it's the same in China but according to EU definition of HSR it is any *new* line designed for 250km/h speeds and above or any *upgraded* line capable of 200km/h speeds and above. So according to this definition Guangshen would actually count as a HSR while new lines capable of 200km/h (such as Guangzhou-Zhuhai ICL) would not count as HSR. It may be slightly different in China though. Not that it makes any difference in real life.


Guangshen wasn't China's first HSR, it was officially named quasi high speed railway (准高速铁路) due to its 160km/h normal operating speed. Qinhuangdao-Shenyang is China's first HSR. 

Since all 200km/h upgraded conventional lines have been downgraded to 160km/h none of those lines count as HSR in China anymore. Currently high speed rail's definition in China is passenger dedicated lines with speed greater than 200km/h, however some passenger/freight mix lines which met that speed requirement have also been called HSR too.


----------



## Sunfuns

200 km/h lines are a grey area both in China and elsewhere. Also we need to be sure that there are actually trains running at that speed on the line not just it being theoretically possible. 250 km/h or more is a safer definition because generally speaking it's not possible to upgrade an old classical line to that speed without major rebuilding and if that is done almost surely there are also trains using this feature.


----------



## Pansori

hmmwv said:


> Guangshen wasn't China's first HSR, it was officially named quasi high speed railway (准高速铁路) due to its 160km/h normal operating speed. Qinhuangdao-Shenyang is China's first HSR.
> 
> Since all 200km/h upgraded conventional lines have been downgraded to 160km/h none of those lines count as HSR in China anymore. Currently high speed rail's definition in China is passenger dedicated lines with speed greater than 200km/h, however some passenger/freight mix lines which met that speed requirement have also been called HSR too.


Was Guangshen railway downgraded to 160km/h too?


----------



## doc7austin

> Guangshen line is runs from Shenzhen to Guangzhou via Dongguan at up to 200km/h.


I have travelled on that line quite often. 
The train never really accelerated above 120 km/h.


----------



## Silly_Walks

When I took that train from Guangzhou back to Shenzhen in 2009 it traveled at 200km/h.

Don't know what happened to it after the speed downgrade, and the opening of the 380km/h spec line between Guangzhou and Shenzhen.


----------



## ranshining

chornedsnorkack said:


> Do any of the 20 continue to Guangzhou?


No, Shenzhen North is the last stop on all trains from Xiamen.

There will be just two G trains Guangzhou - Chaoshan (roughly halfway between Shenzhen and Xiamen).

It's probably not economical to run the faster trainsets on the slower Shenzhen - Xiamen line. The opposite option is trying to fit a 200 km/h train on the very busy 300 km/h Shenzhen - Guangzhou line.

So, for now no direct Guangzhou - Xiamen (aside from the K trains that take the old railways).


----------



## :jax:

Nobody is doing it, but ideally I would see real travel speed based on a straight line distance (great circle) between the stations, and the shortest travel time between them with a regularly running train. As a passenger that would be the primary concern. Chinese HSR seem straighter than most so in most cases they should come well off in such a comparison.


----------



## big-dog

^^ like Xinjiang-Gansu HSR case, where tracks are almost all straight lines and I guess it's hard not reaching 300 kmph


----------



## FM 2258

doc7austin said:


> I have travelled on that line quite often.
> The train never really accelerated above 120 km/h.


I thought CRH1 trains run at 200km/h on that line. I last rode that line back in 2010 though.


----------



## Pansori

doc7austin said:


> I have travelled on that line quite often.
> The train never really accelerated above 120 km/h.


In 2011 it was accelerating to 200km/h. However the downgrades were taking place short after I rode it so I suppose it might have been affected.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

I observe that there also is 1 daily train Nanchang-Shenzhen, D2321, taking 8:14 and costing 352 yuan 5 jiao in second class, 423 yuan in first class.


----------



## itfcfan

dimlys1994 said:


> CHINA: The final 527 km of the Southern Xinjiang line between Aksu and Korla opened for traffic on December 5 with the departure of a freight train from Aksu. The 1449 km line has been built in stages with the fiorst phase opening in 1984. It is designed for 160 km/h operation.


I saw this too - but looking on a map, this section has been open ever since Urumqi - (Turpan) - Kashgar was opened, so what's the news here?


----------



## hhzz

Chengdu-Guiyang HSR constructions has begun on December 25th,2013.It will take about 8 hours from Chengdu to HongKong by the end of 2019.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> Chengdu-Guiyang HSR constructions has begun on December 25th,2013.It will take about 8 hours from Chengdu to HongKong by the end of 2019.


Is Guiyang-Guangzhou high speed railway under construction?

I see that Beijing-Shenzhen HSR shall be sped up - as of 28th of December, there shall be 2 daily G trains Beijing-Shenzhen, not 1 any longer, and G79 shall cover the distance in 8:33, compared to 10:16 of G71.

Shenzhen-Beijing HSR shall NOT be sped up appreciably - there shall also be 2 G trains on the route, but the faster (G80) shall still take 10:15.


----------



## hhzz

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is Guiyang-Guangzhou high speed railway under construction?


#6883,#6963


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> #6883,#6963


Sorry - should have remembered.
So, Guiyang-Chengdu opens 2019... when does Guangzhou-Guiyang?

The trip time is still very hard to tell - as shown by the difference between Beijing-Shenzhen 8:33 and Shenzhen-Beijing 10:15.


----------



## hhzz

chornedsnorkack said:


> Sorry - should have remembered.
> So, Guiyang-Chengdu opens 2019... when does Guangzhou-Guiyang?
> 
> The trip time is still very hard to tell - as shown by the difference between Beijing-Shenzhen 8:33 and Shenzhen-Beijing 10:15.


1.By the end of 2014.
2.why is it hard to tell?The fastest train G79 will take 8 hours and 33 minutes from Beijing to Shenzhen.


----------



## ranshining

Beijing - Guilin G529 tickets now up for sale. Leave 7:46, arrive 18:18; 806 yuan for 2nd class, 1249.5 for 1st class. Also, two G trains Changsha - Guilin.

Chongqing - Lichuan two D trains and Chengdu - Lichuan are also up.

It seems that finally all of the announced openings for Dec 28 are in the system.


----------



## xinxingren

itfcfan said:


> I saw this too - but looking on a map, this section has been open ever since Urumqi - (Turpan) - Kashgar was opened, so what's the news here?


That was my first reaction too. But I guess the story is that the Great Speedup Program has got that far west, and old 1950's line designs with grades and curves for steam engines, have now been double tracked to 160km/hr. Not much chance of electric out there, but this is China, electric gets to Urumqi with HSR :check:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> 1.By the end of 2014.


Shall any other high speed railways to Guizhou open in 2014? Like Guizhou-Changsha, or Guizhou-Kunming?


hhzz said:


> 2.why is it hard to tell?The fastest train G79 will take 8 hours and 33 minutes from Beijing to Shenzhen.


Because it is unknown how many stops fastest trains of Guangzhou-Chengdu railway shall make. Beijing-Shenzhen high speed railway used not to have any express trains. Now there is one express train, only in one direction, 8:33. The other three, incl. both trains Shenzhen-Beijing, take at least 10:15.


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> The trip time is still very hard to tell - as shown by the difference between Beijing-Shenzhen 8:33 and Shenzhen-Beijing 10:15.


Errm, trying very hard to resist the obvious quip that northbound is going uphill on the map ^^

G71 leaves early, takes all day and stops at 17 (seventeen) places, including 8 minutes at Changshanan, 10 min. at Leiyangxi, and 8 min. at Shaoguan.
G79 leaves later, in a hurry stops at only 7 (seven) places, longest stop is 5 min at Guangzhounan.

BTW, if I take G576 from Shanghaihongqiao, change to G79 at Changshanan (25 mins layover), I get to Shenzhen in 10 hours flat. Beats those D trains down the seaside. :lol:

Edit: No, I don't know the reason why both northbound trains, G72 and G80 stop at 18 places. Maybe it'll change after the spring holiday.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

xinxingren said:


> Errm, trying very hard to resist the obvious quip that northbound is going uphill on the map ^^
> 
> G71 leaves early, takes all day and stops at 17 (seventeen) places, including 8 minutes at Changshanan, 10 min. at Leiyangxi, and 8 min. at Shaoguan.
> G79 leaves later, in a hurry stops at only 7 (seven) places, longest stop is 5 min at Guangzhounan.


Express train G66 takes 8:00 Guangzhou-Beijing - only 1 minute longer than G79. The difference is that it does not serve Shenzhen.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Is G66 completely non-stop from Guangzhou South to Beijing West? If so does G66 run through the large cities (ex. Changsha, Wuhan, Zhengzhou, Shijiazhuang) at full speed?


----------



## xinxingren

According to 12306.cn G66 stops for 3 minutes at each of Changshanan, Wuhan, Zhengzhoudong, Shijiazhuang. Presumably it would go through all other stations at the operational speed for non-stop trains.


----------



## big-dog

There is an official definition in Railway Safety Management Regulations (《铁路安全管理条例》). HSR is the rail with design speed of 250 kmph or more, including those 250 kmph rails on which trains run at 200 kmph initially. By this definition Xiamen-Shenzhen is NOT a HSR since it's design speed is 200 kmph.



Pansori said:


> What is the precise definition of HSR in China?
> 
> If I'm not mistaken Gaungshen line was the first HSR line in China with service speeds up to 200km/h. Therefore it should be shown on the map as a 200km/h line.
> 
> Not sure if it's the same in China but according to EU definition of HSR it is any *new* line designed for 250km/h speeds and above or any *upgraded* line capable of 200km/h speeds and above. So according to this definition Guangshen would actually count as a HSR while new lines capable of 200km/h (such as Guangzhou-Zhuhai ICL) would not count as HSR. It may be slightly different in China though. Not that it makes any difference in real life.


----------



## hhzz

Experiencing the high speed train from Nanning to Guilin which will be officially operated on December 30.

1.








2.









*From chinanews.com*


----------



## big-dog

^^ is the red-dot used for glass breaking? I didn't see that from my HSR experience.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Considering what is connected to the red dot above, could it be the handle of a window curtain?


----------



## doc7austin

Glassbreaker; the same can be seen on German ICE trains.


----------



## Traceparts

chornedsnorkack said:


> Considering what is connected to the red dot above, could it be the handle of a *window curtain*?


no, here is the window curtain


----------



## xinxingren

big-dog said:


> ^^ is the red-dot used for glass breaking? I didn't see that from my HSR experience.


This might be post-Wenzhou rolling stock. They must have the glass firmly fixed so it doesn't pop out on impact...


----------



## hhzz

*Several new lines open on December 28th,2013.*
1.Xi'an-Baoji
2.Maoming-Zhanjiang
3.Chengdu East-Lichuan(Chongqing-Lichuan)
(1).








*From Chinanews.com*

(2).








*From Chinanews.com*

4.Xiamen-Shenzhen
(1).








*From Chinanews.com*

(2).








*From Chinanews.com*

5.Guilin-Beijing West(Hengyang-Liuzhou)
(1).








*From Chinanews.com*

(2).








*From guilinlife.com*

(3).








*From guilinlife.com*


----------



## XAN_

Is there any HS services with sleeper places in China?


----------



## xinxingren

hhzz said:


> *Several new lines open on December 28th,2013.*


I like the regional variations in uniform. Those red Dongbei mandarin suits were getting a bit boring :cheers:


----------



## doc7austin

> Is there any HS services with sleeper places in China?


Yes, however, only in daytime services.
HS-lines are closed at night.


----------



## FM 2258

Does Guilin have a new station for high speed operations or does it use an existing railway station. Where is Guilin's railway station located in the city and what is it's name(ex. Guilin East?)? 

I've been to Guilin but arrived by air.


----------



## big-dog

hhzz said:


> *Several new lines open on December 28th,2013.*


*1951km new rail were built and opened on Dec 28&30 2013*

All of them are running 200+ kmph.


Xi'an-Baoji HSR, 167km, opening speed 250 kmph;
Chongqing-Lichuan Rail, 287 km, opening speed 200 kmph;
Xiamen-Shenzhen, 514km, opening speed 200 kmph;
Liuzhou-Nanning HSR, 223km, opening speed 200 kmph;
Hengyang-Liuzhou rail, 498km, opening speed 200 kmph;
Nanning-Qinzhou-Fangchenggang rail, 162km, opening speed 200 kmph;
Qinzhou-Beihai rail, 99.5km, opening speed 200 kmph;


----------



## xinxingren

FM 2258 said:


> Does Guilin have a new station for high speed operations or does it use an existing railway station. Where is Guilin's railway station located in the city and what is it's name(ex. Guilin East?)?
> 
> I've been to Guilin but arrived by air.


There are two stations in Guilin, the "central" one is Guilin, at the south end of the central city area. Guilin North is ~7 km north. There probably is some special Chinese rule about which trains on the Hengyang - Nanning line stop or terminate at either station, but I don't get it... Then ~4km northwest of Guilin North is a bit of construction which looks to me like it could be Guilin West. Newest satellite image appears to be 2011November12. From all the crossovers and turnouts (see also the photo numbered (6) from this post) I'm guessing all thru trains will go via Guilin West, and trains terminating at Guilin might run into the central city. Wild guess tho', just looking at the bottom three pics, or is a hick town like Guilin compelled to use its grubby old station while only the big northern cities get shiny new marble palaces?


----------



## hhzz

big-dog said:


> *1937km new rail were built and opened on Dec 28 2013*
> 
> All of them are running 200 kmph.
> 
> 
> Xi'an-Baoji HSR, 167km, opening speed 250 kmph;
> Chongqing-Lichuan Rail, 287 km, opening speed 200 kmph;
> Xiamen-Shenzhen, 514km, opening speed 200 kmph;
> Liuzhou-Nanning HSR, 223km, opening speed 200 kmph;
> Hengyang-Liuzhou rail, 498km, opening speed 200 kmph;
> Nanning-Beihai rail, 197km, opening speed 200 kmph;


*Open on December 30,2013:*Nanning-Liuzhou-Guilin
Nanning-Qinzhou-Fangchenggang
Nanning-Beihai



FM 2258 said:


> Does Guilin have a new station for high speed operations or does it use an existing railway station. Where is Guilin's railway station located in the city and what is it's name(ex. Guilin East?)?
> 
> I've been to Guilin but arrived by air.


It uses an existing station called Guilin railway station(also known as South station) which located in downtown Guilin.Right now,all the trains including the high speed trains start from or stop in Guilin railway station(South station).
Another existing station called North station located in the suburb of Guilin city,I think it will be put into operation again after Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR completed.


----------



## XAN_

doc7austin said:


> Yes, however, only in daytime services.
> HS-lines are closed at night.


Thanks! What types of trains have such coaches? Are there any shots of interior?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

doc7austin said:


> Yes, however, only in daytime services.
> HS-lines are closed at night.


Lines are. However, for example between Beijing and Shanghai, there are 3 D trains each night, taking 11:41 and 11:42. For comparison the T train takes 14:48.


----------



## Pansori

Could somebody clarify if there is a plan to connect Guangzhou-Nanning with HSR? Would it use Guiyang-Guangzhou PDL?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> Could somebody clarify if there is a plan to connect Guangzhou-Nanning with HSR? Would it use Guiyang-Guangzhou PDL?


There is certainly some plan to build a high speed railway Nanning-Wuzhou-Guangzhou. How is its progress?


----------



## Pansori

chornedsnorkack said:


> There is certainly some plan to build a high speed railway Nanning-Wuzhou-Guangzhou. How is its progress?


 I can't see it in Wikipedia amon the list of planned HSR lines. Is there more info on it?

I checked on Chinatrainguide.com and if it's not lying the current fastest train from Guangzhou to Nanning is K365 and K1232 which take approximately 12.5 hours at an average speed of 65km/h. This is quite bad even for the K trains. Also I wonder why there are no T trains on this route? They normally go at 90-100km/h average speed which would be much more reasonable. We're talking of a city of several million inhabitants which has good links with neighboring Vietnam.


----------



## hhzz

Pansori said:


> Could somebody clarify if there is a plan to connect Guangzhou-Nanning with HSR? Would it use Guiyang-Guangzhou PDL?


Guangxi section has completed.And there's a CRH2 train under test run between Nanning and Wuzhou several days ago.
Guangdong section is still under construction.


----------



## xinxingren

Pansori said:


> I can't see it in Wikipedia amon the list of planned HSR lines. Is there more info on it?


Yeah, I get those days when Google & Wikipedia just won't tell me what I want to know :doh:
High-speed_rail_in_China describes Guangzhou-Nanning as a Class 1 high speed railway, design speed 250km/hr. There's construction visible on satellite images from as early as 2010, thru Qintang, Guigang, Pingnan.



Pansori said:


> Also I wonder why there are no T trains on this route? They normally go at 90-100km/h average speed which would be much more reasonable.


if the line is capable of that speed ...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

I cannot find schedules or news of Maoming-Zhanjiang high speed railway actually having opened for scheduled ticketed service in 2013. Can anyone confirm or deny its progress?


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> What would they have to do to upgrade to 350km/h(I'm guessing the overhead wires)? I always wonder how much more it costs to build a like to 350km/h standards vs 250km/h standards.


If it's listed as upgradable to 350km/h that means the basic infrastructure are built to 350km/h standard, such as turning radius and viaducts. They need different overhead wires, signaling, and possibly new sleepers at sections that are not ballastless.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Interesting, it seems like it would be more expensive to disrupt the line and upgrade than to start off at the highest rated speed.


----------



## hmmwv

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Interesting, it seems like it would be more expensive to disrupt the line and upgrade than to start off at the highest rated speed.


China is very good at this, just looking at all the speed up campaigns, many of which are way more disruptive than this. They only need to shut down a section of one of the tracks to do the work, and a lot of work can be done at night when neither line is in operation. If they can upgrade the old but extremely busy Shanghai-Nanjing Railway to 200km/h without taking it offline they can do the 350km/h upgrade with ease.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

You're right, another good example is the Guangshen Railway.


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> I cannot find schedules or news of Maoming-Zhanjiang high speed railway actually having opened for scheduled ticketed service in 2013. Can anyone confirm or deny its progress?


Interesting :dunno: there's a ton of news releases saying it opened December 28. Now the best I can find for ticketing is e.g. T202 Sanya - Beijing, which for the timing and speeds quoted looks like it runs on the Hainan eastern HSR line to Haikou, 363km at 99km/hr including one stop. But from ZhanJiangXi-Maomingdong 93km at 74km/hr, no stops, looks like they're not even running "slow" trains on this HSR sector.


----------



## hhzz

*January 2014*

Shanghai-Kunming HSR(Hangzhou-Changsha section ) constructions in Jiangxi province,Central China.








*From jx.chinanews.com*


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> *HSR network map 2014*
> 
> I did some translation job on a HSR map posted on local forum by 二十八号生
> 
> 
> Red lines: 300+ km/h
> Blue lines: 200+ km/h
> Dotted lines: to be opened in 2014


Listing the lines to be opened:
Shown on the map as due in 2014:

Harbin-Qiqihar 300 km/h
Tianjin-Yujiapu 300 km/h
Tianjin-Baoding 200 km/h
Qingdao-Yantai-Rongcheng 200 km/h
Hangzhou-Jinhua-Nanchang-Changsha 300 km/h
Wenzhou-Jinhua 200 km/h
Longyan-Ganzhou 200 km/h
Guangzhou-Zhaoqing-Wuzhou 200 km/h
Guangzhou-Zhaoqing-Guilin-Guiyang 300 km/h
Wuhan-Xiaogan 200 km/h
Wuhan-Huanggang 200 km/h
Wuhan-Huangshi 200 km/h
Chengdu-Leshan 200 km/h
Chengdu-Jiangyou 200 km/h
Zhengzhou-Kaifeng 200 km/h
Zhengzhou-Jiaozuo 200 km/h
Xian-Yuncheng-Taiyuan-Yuanping 300 km/h
Yuanping-Datong 200 km/h
Lanzhou-Urumqi 300 km/h
Shown as open, but not reported to be so - hoped to actually open in 2014:

Wuzhou-Nanning 200 km/h
Maoming-Zhanjiang 200 km/h
Is that all correct?
Are there any lines missing on the map that also are due in 2014?


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> I cannot find schedules or news of Maoming-Zhanjiang high speed railway actually having opened for scheduled ticketed service in 2013. Can anyone confirm or deny its progress?


http://news.southcn.com/d/2013-12/30/content_88646149.htm
says most of the old K and T trains are running at 120km/hr max. on this piece of HSR. There will be no EMUs until there is connecting HSR line to the main system.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

So, railway lines which I find reported as due for 2014, but which are NOT depicted on the map:

Longhua-Futian
Zhangjiakou-Huh-hoto
Hefei-Fuzhou
Zhengzhou-Xuchang
Changsha-Zhuzhou-Xiangtan
Nanjing-Anqing
Dongguan-Huizhou
Foshan-Zhaoqing

How is the progress of these lines?


----------



## Sunfuns

Is Lanzhou-Urumqi really built at 300+ km/h standard? I remember reading somewhere that it's built mostly at 250 km/h level.


----------



## gdolniak

*CSR Train Cars, Parts Shipped to Australia Tainted with Asbestos*

*CSR Train Cars, Parts Shipped to Australia Tainted with Asbestos*
By Staff reporters Wu jing and Lu Bingyang










(Beijing) – Train cars and parts exported by CSR Corp. Ltd., China's biggest train maker, to Australia have been found to contain hazardous materials, and CSR is working to make sure the news is contained.

The exports were sent to Bradken Ltd., an Australian mining products group.

The Australian customs officials have isolated the cars and equipment containing asbestos, which can cause cancer and other diseases if exposure is prolonged. They are continuing to investigate.

It is unclear how many cars are involved.

The Economic and Commercial Section of China's consulate in Melbourne announced a probe was underway on January 7. The website of China's Ministry of Commerce posted the news a day later.

However, information regarding the episode has been removed from both websites. A source close to CSR said the company negotiated with relevant departments immediately after the incident to limit publicity.

CSR said the news release by the Ministry of Commerce was removed from the website because some aspects were not entirely accurate, but declined to say what exactly was inaccurate.

This is not the first time that a CSR export has been found to contain asbestos, the source at the company said.

Australia banned the use of asbestos in 2004 and importers are required to ensure and declare on import documents that their goods do not contain the material.

Sources in the railway industry say that Chinese manufacturers sometimes use banned materials to keep costs low and make their exports more competitive.

The report on the Ministry of Commerce website that was removed said that a spokesman at Bradken said this was the first time the company had imported CSR products. He added that although an examination showed train cars contained white asbestos, employees faced no health hazards and the episode would not affect future cooperation with Chinese companies.

A spokesman for Australian customs said Bradken is likely to be fined AU$ 850,000 or up to three times the value of the locomotive.

A CSR spokesman said earlier that the subway cars it sells domestically are better quality than the ones its exports.

http://english.caixin.com/2014-01-09/100627064.html


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> So, railway lines which I find reported as due for 2014, but which are NOT depicted on the map:
> (LIST)
> 
> How is the progress of these lines?


Aah, the joy of maps is finding the mistakes

_4. Zhengzhou-Xuchang _appears to have opened 2013 September 28, plenty of D trains listed between 2h30' & 3h travel time, vs 3h53' for fastest K246.

_5. Changsha-Zhuzhou-Xiangtan_ as part of the Changsha-Hangzhou line, has the difference that Xiangtang was dropped in favor of looping the line north thru NanChang. There are D trains running Changsha-Nanchang. There are also D trains Changsha-Hangzhou but these do not stop at Nanchang nor Nanchangxi, nor Xiangtang. I suspect they might be running for parts of the journey on upgraded standard rails.


----------



## hhzz

*Shanghai-Kunming HSR,January 12th 2014*

The main structural construction of Beipanjiang River bridge completed in Guizhou Province,Southwest China. 








*From xinhuanet.com*


----------



## hmmwv

I wonder if anyone here has experience of train travel during Chunyun, how easy would it be to purchase CRH tickets for short routes in more developed areas. For example a couple of days before New Year Eve between Shanghai and Nanjing or between Beijing and Tianjin.
Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## ranshining

hmmwv said:


> I wonder if anyone here has experience of train travel during Chunyun, how easy would it be to purchase CRH tickets for short routes in more developed areas. For example a couple of days before New Year Eve between Shanghai and Nanjing or between Beijing and Tianjin.
> Any help would be appreciated.


I know Shanghai - Beijing as a whole still has lots of tickets days after it's open for sale unlike many other destinations which would sell out within minutes. You obviously shouldn't rely on getting a ticket at the station on the day of travel, but there is no such big rush that you need to book 20 days in advance.


----------



## hmmwv

^^ I see, I'll be doing some local travels between Shanghai and Nanjing and hoping that I can get tickets a day in advance. I know longer routes are easily booked but I'm just not sure how busy those short intercity runs will be. I know there isn't a lot of migrate worker traffic between two eastern cities but then again many people traveling from Shanghai to their final destinations may connect through Nanjing.


----------



## Traceparts

A busy train station: Shijiazhuang train station


----------



## FM 2258

^^ 

I love seeing High Speed and Conventional trains running in the same area.


----------



## Pansori

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> I love seeing High Speed and Conventional trains running in the same area.


I thought it was just me 
It gives the station some feeling of life going on. Or something like that.


----------



## China Hand

Sunfuns said:


> It's mostly a question of money and time. 50-60 km tunnels below mountains or sea have been built elsewhere and most likely could be built here as well.


China will have a labour pool advantage for many decades to come, this allows costs to be lower for many aspects of construction.


----------



## China Hand

foxmulder said:


> This line will be great for the connection between these two points. It will be a five fold decrease from ~16hr to ~3hr.


With 200km/h speeds the actual travel time will be 4+hours.

Still no speed tests seen on the Datong-Xian line. Perhaps they will begin after the holiday. Opening date is scheduled for June - August this summer.


----------



## urbanfan89

China Hand said:


> China will have a labour pool advantage for many decades to come, this allows costs to be lower for many aspects of construction.


I don't think so. Wages in the construction sector have been rising 15-20% per year for a decade now, the fastest wage raise in human history. The sooner the constuction is done, the better.


----------



## RockAss

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is any high speed railway under construction between Nanning and Guiyang, or shall high speed trains Nanning-Guiyang run on Nanning-Hengyang high speed railway and turn to Guangzhou-Guiyang high speed railway at Guilin station?


there is 200km/h (250km/h) line between Nanning and Hechi (金南铁路) part of Nanning - Guiyang proposed 
gx.people.com.cn


> ...Kim Nam Railway: Gold (City River) to south (Ning) north of Hechi railway line Jinchengjiang Dianqiangui station, south of Nanning East Station. By cargo and passenger line standard, the target speed 200km / h, aside 250km / h, has completed the feasibility study design... google translate












but it hasn't been approved yet (http://news.xinhuanet.com/fortune/2014-01/10/c_125983069.htm)


----------



## ranshining

China Hand said:


> With 200km/h speeds the actual travel time will be 4+hours.
> 
> Still no speed tests seen on the Datong-Xian line. Perhaps they will begin after the holiday. Opening date is scheduled for June - August this summer.


I thought (based on information shared in the local forum) that Datong-Xian won't be complete until 2015, only the Taiyuan-Xian section may open this year. Is this from a news source or official announcement?


----------



## flankerjun

A construction above the shanghai-wuhan-chengdu high speed rail


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## flankerjun

I am in Wuhan now,the air congdition is horrible,much worse than norther city in China,Wuhan now has more than 10 thousand construction sites.


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## hmmwv

flankerjun said:


> A construction above the shanghai-wuhan-chengdu high speed rail


Badass overpass rotation is badass! Apparently this is the largest such rotation in China at 17000t, they did it so the overpass can be casted as a single piece parallel to the railway to minimize space needed and service interruptions.


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## foxmulder

That is really an amazing scene. I hope they are shooting a documentary. 


It is worth the selfie that construction guys is shooting, lol.


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## CarlosBlueDragon

flankerjun said:


> A construction above the shanghai-wuhan-chengdu high speed rail


wow......!! :eek2::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:


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## FM 2258

flankerjun said:


> A construction above the shanghai-wuhan-chengdu high speed rail


What station is that in the background? For a minute I thought the bridge was an HSR bridge, not a road bridge. I'm sure it will make a lot of people's travel time a lot shorter.


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## flankerjun

foxmulder said:


> That is really an amazing scene. I hope they are shooting a documentary.
> 
> 
> It is worth the selfie that construction guys is shooting, lol.


I love the documentary about megastructure,such as NG megastructure and megafactory.But China is so crazy in building infrastructure,if the NG wanted to record them,,i am afraid that NG can't keep pace with China


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## flankerjun

FM 2258 said:


> What station is that in the background? For a minute I thought the bridge was an HSR bridge, not a road bridge. I'm sure it will make a lot of people's travel time a lot shorter.


It's Hankou railway station in Wuhan,In China, non-elevated railways in city centre always cut the city into many parts,this is bad for city developement,this construction is one of the methods to overcome the problem.


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## chornedsnorkack

So, trying to date 2014 high speed line openings:

Harbin-Qiqihar 300 km/h
Tianjin-Yujiapu 300 km/h
Tianjin-Baoding 200 km/h
Qingdao-Yantai-Rongcheng 200 km/h - allegedly may be delayed into 2015
Hangzhou-Jinhua-Nanchang-Changsha 300 km/h
Wenzhou-Jinhua 200 km/h
Longyan-Ganzhou 200 km/h
Guangzhou-Zhaoqing-Wuzhou 200 km/h
Guangzhou-Zhaoqing-Guilin-Guiyang 300 km/h
Wuhan-Xiaogan 200 km/h
Wuhan-Huanggang 200 km/h
Wuhan-Huangshi 200 km/h
Chengdu-Leshan 200 km/h
Chengdu-Jiangyou 200 km/h
Zhengzhou-Kaifeng 200 km/h
Zhengzhou-Jiaozuo 200 km/h
Xian-Yuncheng-Taiyuan-Yuanping 300 km/h - allegedly due sometime June-August
Yuanping-Datong 200 km/h
Lanzhou-Urumqi 300 km/h
Wuzhou-Nanning 200 km/h
Maoming-Zhanjiang 200 km/h
Can anyone supply the missing months?


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## big-dog

foxmulder said:


> That is really an amazing scene. I hope they are shooting a documentary.
> 
> 
> It is worth the selfie that construction guys is shooting, lol.


There's a video on the rotation Video link.

After the rotation they still need to fill the gap with concrete. How could that be done without scaffold?


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## Silly_Walks

big-dog said:


> After the rotation they still need to fill the gap with concrete. How could that be done without scaffold?


I don't know how they will do it, but I would use some kind of mold that can be hung/attached between the two parts.


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## Traceparts

China's infrastructure development


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## hmmwv

big-dog said:


> There's a video on the rotation Video link.
> 
> After the rotation they still need to fill the gap with concrete. How could that be done without scaffold?


Most likely they will fill the gap with a smaller piece of prefabricated concrete section, which can be done from the completed section of the bridge. 

Also note a smaller scale rotation was completed not long ago on the left hand side, so this is a double rotation to form the whole overpass. The other side is tiny so it's probably only about 10,000t. :lol:


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## FM 2258

Traceparts said:


> China's infrastructure development


Nice little video. Getting the rail system to be faster and more efficient is definitely helping the country grow.


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## FM 2258

I love watching these China high speed rail videos, here's a recent nicely documented one from Shanghai Railway Station to Suzhou:








> Published on Dec 10, 2013
> 
> A short ride on the China High Speed Rail, from Shanghai to Suzhou onboard a China Railways CRH3 trainset. The portion of track we are travelling on is the Shanghai--Nanjing Intercity Railway, much of it running parallel to the conventional Nanjing-Shanghai Railway as you will see in the video.
> 
> Train: China Railways CRH3
> Railway: Shanghai--Nanjing Intercity Railway
> Recorded segment: Shanghai (上海) to Suzhou (苏州)
> Date: Nov 2013
> 
> Train No.: G7236 (高速动车)
> Origin: Shanghai Railway Station / 上海
> Destination: Hefei Railway Station / 合肥
> Enroute stops: 苏州, 无锡新区, 无锡, 常州, 镇江, 南京南
> Total distance: 465km
> Total travelling time: 3hr05min
> 
> Observations:
> 00:00 Shanghai Railway Station
> 04:08 Mainline train
> 04:45 Passing Shanghai West Railway Station / 上海西
> 07:25 CRH3 passes by
> 07:50 Glimpse of train depot
> 08:07 Passing Nanxiang North Railway Station / 南翔北站
> 09:34 Passing underneath branch line to Shanghai Hongqiao / 上海虹桥站
> 11:47 Passing Anting North Railway Station / 安亭北站
> 13:40 CRH2 passes by
> 14:14 Passing Huaqiao Railway Station / 花桥‎站
> 16:20 Passing Kunshan South Railway Station / 昆山南‎‎站
> 17:18 CRH2 passes by
> 18:31 Passing Yangchenghu Railway Station / 阳澄湖‎‎‎站
> 21:59 CRH2 passes by
> 22:01 Passing Suzhou Industrial Park Railway Station / 苏州园区‎‎‎‎站
> 26:02 Entering Suzhou Railway Station / 苏州站 with CRH2 leaving station


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## Svartmetall

Pansori said:


> China, on the other hand has done it's network to a seemingly even higher spec than any of those countries (perhaps except Spain?).


Japan? I think their technology and specifications for the true Shinkansen lines (not necessarily for the mini-Shinkansen) are very good indeed. Especially with all the safety features they have, not to mention the punctuality and lack of deaths in all of their years of running. Very enviable indeed.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Just compare the convenience of CRH against Shinkansen.

Out of the 17 stations of Tokaido Shinkansen, 12 are old stations on Tokaido main line. 2 (Shin-Osaka and Mikawa-Anjo) are new stations on the old Tokaido mainline, and out of the only 3 that are not served by Tokaido main line, 2 (Shin-Yokohama and Gifu-Hashima) are on branch lines (and stations thereof). Shin-Fuji is the only Tokaido Shinkansen station out of 17 that is not served by zairaisen.

How many CRH stations are on slow speed railway and old, existing stations?

They tend to be at inaccessible and also unserved places in distant suburbs. Inconvenient.


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## flankerjun

chornedsnorkack said:


> Just compare the convenience of CRH against Shinkansen.
> Out of the 17 stations of Tokaido Shinkansen, 12 are old stations on Tokaido main line. 2 (Shin-Osaka and Mikawa-Anjo) are new stations on the old Tokaido mainline, and out of the only 3 that are not served by Tokaido main line, 2 (Shin-Yokohama and Gifu-Hashima) are on branch lines (and stations thereof). Shin-Fuji is the only Tokaido Shinkansen station out of 17 that is not served by zairaisen.
> How many CRH stations are on slow speed railway and old, existing stations?
> They tend to be at inaccessible and also unserved places in distant suburbs. Inconvenient.


what are the average speed of CRH and shinkansen?CHR has an average speed of 320km/h in wuhan to Guangzhou line before 2011,acess to the old station is at the price of speed,in downtown,you can not pass the station at the speed of 300km/h.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> what are the average speed of CRH and shinkansen?CHR has an average speed of 320km/h in wuhan to Guangzhou line before 2011,acess to the old station is at the price of speed,in downtown,you can not pass the station at the speed of 300km/h.


Tokaido Shinkansen top speed is 270 km/h. Nozomi stop at 5 of the 17 stations - they pass without stopping through major old downtown stations like Shizuoka:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzvgIOOjHdI


----------



## flankerjun

chornedsnorkack said:


> Tokaido Shinkansen top speed is 270 km/h. Nozomi stop at 5 of the 17 stations - they pass without stopping through major old downtown stations like Shizuoka:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzvgIOOjHdI


Top speed is not average speed,average speed of other countries is far behind China.China HSR has a minimum curve radius of 7000m,if you pass the downtown,you can not fit for the condition,when you pass the station,you must slow down the speed.Harbin to Dalian HSR is an example,when you pass the downtown of Shenyang the speed slow down from 300 to 80km/h.for China HSR,when you stop at a station,you will add 5min to the whole journy.BUT if the station is in the downtown,the time will be at least 15min.


----------



## Svartmetall

flankerjun said:


> Top speed is not average speed,average speed of other countries is far behind China.China HSR has a minimum curve radius of 7000m,if you pass the downtown,you can not fit for the condition,when you pass the station,you must slow down the speed.Harbin to Dalian HSR is an example,when you pass the downtown of Shenyang the speed slow down from 300 to 80km/h.for China HSR,when you stop at a station,you will add 5min to the whole journy.BUT if the station is in the downtown,the time will be at least 15min.


Nozomi #40 speed between Tokyo and Hakata, a distance of 1174.9km covered in 308 minutes. Average speed of 228.8km/h. 

If China can manage an average speed of 320km/h, that's very impressive sure, though of course, as distance goes up and stations per km goes down, then of course average speed will be greater, so it stands to reason the longest CRH lines will have a better average speed compared to the more frequent stops of the Shinkansen (even the fastest ones make a good number of stops). But speed isn't everything. When talking about specifications one needs to consider, frequency, positioning, safety, reliability, comfort etc. It's not just about raw speed.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Svartmetall said:


> Nozomi #40 speed between Tokyo and Hakata, a distance of 1174.9km covered in 308 minutes. Average speed of 228.8km/h.


What is the number of intermediate stops, 9?
Beijing-Shanghai no G train makes 9 intermediate stops. A few make 8, and the fastest of those is G153, 345 minutes for 1318 km. Average speed 229,2 km. So basically no difference here... and the other 8 stop G are slower.


Svartmetall said:


> If China can manage an average speed of 320km/h, that's very impressive sure,


Nowhere even close!
Beijing-Shanghai 1318 km, best time (1 stop) 4:48, so average 274,6 km/h. Beijing-Guangzhou real distance 2104 km, best time (4 stops) used to be 7:59, but seems to have vanished! So now the fastest time Beijing-Guangzhou is 9:14, G69 with 11 stops, average speed 227,9 km/h. Worse than Nozomi, and less stops, too. And stations in wrong places, as stated before.


----------



## Gadiri

FM 2258 said:


> I've always wondered, what are these concrete protrusions next to the tracks? (circled in *red)*I don't see them on HSR in other countries.





flankerjun said:


> their function is to fix the position of the track plate.There are 4 kinds of unballasted track.this kind is from Germany,called Boegl plate,is widely used in 300+km/h hsr.Boegl plate has Superior performance,but is difficult to produce,and so expensive.So after 2010,a new kind of track plate replaced the Boegl plate.


Concrete tracks for HSR are safe ? Since they are used (maybe since a decade), are there any problems of usury ?


----------



## flankerjun

chornedsnorkack said:


> What is the number of intermediate stops, 9?
> Beijing-Shanghai no G train makes 9 intermediate stops. A few make 8, and the fastest of those is G153, 345 minutes for 1318 km. Average speed 229,2 km. So basically no difference here... and the other 8 stop G are slower.
> Nowhere even close!
> Beijing-Shanghai 1318 km, best time (1 stop) 4:48, so average 274,6 km/h. Beijing-Guangzhou real distance 2104 km, best time (4 stops) used to be 7:59, but seems to have vanished! So now the fastest time Beijing-Guangzhou is 9:14, G69 with 11 stops, average speed 227,9 km/h. Worse than Nozomi, and less stops, too. And stations in wrong places, as stated before.


In JP,they take nearly all the measues to raise the speed,but after all the line is too old,top speed 320km/h is so difficult.In China,the infrastructure is so superior,line condition of 250km/h line is better than that 300km/h line in JP.for China,to reach an average speed over 300km/h is not a technology problem but a political problem.In 2009,the train from Guangzhou north to Whuhan run 1068km within 2h 46min,an average speed of 341km/h.


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## Svartmetall

flankerjun said:


> In JP,they take nearly all the measues to raise the speed,but after all the line is too old,top speed 320km/h is so difficult.In China,the infrastructure is so superior,line condition of 250km/h line is better than that 300km/h line in JP.for China,to reach an average speed over 300km/h is not a technology problem but a political problem.In 2009,the train from Guangzhou north to Whuhan run 1068km within 2h 46min,an average speed of 341km/h.


:lol: China strong, yes everything is inferior and old in Japan. :nuts:

It's not that the line is too old. It was decided that it was uneconomical to run trains at 360km/h due to the amount of wear and tear that results on the overhead wires, the tracks and due to noise concerns - especially from tunnel boom. As the TGV showed, you can run trains at over 500km/h on regular tracks, however, the amount of damage done to those said tracks really does mitigate any advantages to be gained from higher speeds. Why on earth would you risk profitability for status? 

The Shinkansen - especially the Tokaido line, runs an incredibly dense schedule, and the network transports 300 million per year across it. Given these figures, one has to consider economics and the cost-benefit ratio for increasing speed. Sure, in some cases there has been a drive for improvements in speed following the introduction of the next generation of rolling stock (for example between Tokyo and Shin-Aomori), but overall it's more about clever utilisation of resources to maximise profit vs. maintenance costs and environmental impact. If they can capture a market share from airlines on key routes within Japan at present, then they're doing their job well enough. The only other change will be the introduction of the maglev between Tokyo and Osaka (Chuo Shinkansen project). The technology used there mitigates the maintenance issues one faces with conventional steel wheel + rail when one increases speeds beyond 320km/h, thus this is the solution to the problem of wear and tear. 

But if it makes you feel better, China is superior in every measure.


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## Silly_Walks

doc7austin said:


> Just take another seat!


You can only sit at the seat on your ticket.


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## flankerjun

Svartmetall said:


> :lol: China strong, yes everything is inferior and old in Japan. :nuts:
> 
> It's not that the line is too old. It was decided that it was uneconomical to run trains at 360km/h due to the amount of wear and tear that results on the overhead wires, the tracks and due to noise concerns - especially from tunnel boom. As the TGV showed, you can run trains at over 500km/h on regular tracks, however, the amount of damage done to those said tracks really does mitigate any advantages to be gained from higher speeds. Why on earth would you risk profitability for status?
> 
> The Shinkansen - especially the Tokaido line, runs an incredibly dense schedule, and the network transports 300 million per year across it. Given these figures, one has to consider economics and the cost-benefit ratio for increasing speed. Sure, in some cases there has been a drive for improvements in speed following the introduction of the next generation of rolling stock (for example between Tokyo and Shin-Aomori), but overall it's more about clever utilisation of resources to maximise profit vs. maintenance costs and environmental impact. If they can capture a market share from airlines on key routes within Japan at present, then they're doing their job well enough. The only other change will be the introduction of the maglev between Tokyo and Osaka (Chuo Shinkansen project). The technology used there mitigates the maintenance issues one faces with conventional steel wheel + rail when one increases speeds beyond 320km/h, thus this is the solution to the problem of wear and tear.
> 
> But if it makes you feel better, China is superior in every measure.


I think you may misunderstand what i mean.What are the determinant of the speed? curve radius and tunnels,in stations in China may be a little far from the downtown,but their aim is to keep the curve radius,to get a high average speed.just so simple.For JP HSR ,the cost is not the problem but the infrastructure.if they want to reduce the cost,they should not to speed up every few years.The cost to speed up even higher than to built a new line.infrastructure is really the key problem.maximum curve radius is just 4500m,most are 2000 to 3000m,in China the minimum is 7000m.most are 9000 to 12000m.running 320km/h at the line that has a curve radius 4000m,they need so many extra measures,so the cost is so high,but for China,they need not take those measures.


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## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> I think you may misunderstand what i mean.What are the determinant of the speed? curve radius and tunnels,in stations in China may be a little far from the downtown,but their aim is to keep the curve radius,to get a high average speed.just so simple.


And they do not get the high average speed, after all.


flankerjun said:


> For JP HSR ,the cost is not the problem but the infrastructure.if they want to reduce the cost,they should not to speed up every few years.The cost to speed up even higher than to built a new line.infrastructure is really the key problem.maximum curve radius is just 4500m,most are 2000 to 3000m,


No, only Tokaido Shinkansen has 2500 m curves. Sanyo and Tohoku Shinkansen have 4000 m curves, yet they get into many old central city stations.


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## Sunfuns

flankerjun said:


> Top speed is not average speed,average speed of other countries is far behind China.China HSR has a minimum curve radius of 7000m,if you pass the downtown,you can not fit for the condition,when you pass the station,you must slow down the speed.Harbin to Dalian HSR is an example,when you pass the downtown of Shenyang the speed slow down from 300 to 80km/h.for China HSR,when you stop at a station,you will add 5min to the whole journy.*BUT if the station is in the downtown,the time will be at least 15min.*


It might still be worth it because I don't think you can get from some of those suburban stations to downtown in just 10 min. That might be the only disadvantage of Chinese HS rail vs that in some other countries. 

I've personally used French, German (kind of) and Italian systems. No complaints in either case. In Italy though there is a huge contrast between shiny new HS trains and their fast and reliable connections and the rest of the system which is plagued by delays and in some areas is pretty decrepit…


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## xinxingren

doc7austin said:


> Just take another seat!


hno: He was in France mate, not China. In China the person whose seat got taken would complain, not abt the taken seat, but abt the broken window.


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## Sopomon

> I think you may misunderstand what i mean.What are the determinant of the speed? curve radius and tunnels,in stations in China may be a little far from the downtown,but their aim is to keep the curve radius,to get a high average speed.just so simple.For JP HSR ,the cost is not the problem but the infrastructure.if they want to reduce the cost,they should not to speed up every few years.The cost to speed up even higher than to built a new line.infrastructure is really the key problem.maximum curve radius is just 4500m,most are 2000 to 3000m,in China the minimum is 7000m.most are 9000 to 12000m.running 320km/h at the line that has a curve radius 4000m,they need so many extra measures,so the cost is so high,but for China,they need not take those measures.


It's funny, both you and another forummer seem to love parroting these statistics as some kind of winning blow in a technological dick-waving battle.


----------



## Pansori

Svartmetall said:


> Japan? I think their technology and specifications for the true Shinkansen lines (not necessarily for the mini-Shinkansen) are very good indeed. Especially with all the safety features they have, not to mention the punctuality and lack of deaths in all of their years of running. Very enviable indeed.


Sorry for not making myself very clear.

Japan, of course, has a more adequate system as a whole (China's system is still very much in progress and will take at least another decade to mature). As perhaps almost any European system. But I meant actual technical specs on a micro level i.e. such things as ballastless elevated tracks, 7000m curve radiuses for 300+km/h lines and state of the art railway stations. Does Japan have all of that on a consistent basis? I really don't think so.

As for the overall efficiency and adequacy it is way too early to compare (at least by another 10 years or so). Some stations have been built 'in the middle of nowhere' not because of large curve radiuses or incompetence of the planners but simply because in many (most?) such cases the city/city district itself was not built there in the first place. Just use the historical imagery of Google Earth and try to observe Shenzhen North station. It's an emerging new modern high-density residential area. Just a few years ago it was an empty land. Plain fields and hills! 

So China not only needs to fully complete its CRH network but also complete its urbanization. After that happens we'll be able to have a fair comparison of overall adequacy and efficiency of the system. For the time being, however, we can only compare individual technical specs like radiuses, technologies used for tracks, stations, rolling-stock etc and this is where China stands out even if compared to Japan.


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## Svartmetall

Rolling stock superior - that's arguable. As for technologies signalling systems, I rate the Japanese as higher as it is proven technology that has allowed very high frequencies of trains to run - especially on the Tokaido Shinkansen without collision. Not only that, but their safety systems have been tested under extreme conditions on numerous occasions (earthquakes). 

If you're talking about the fact that China has been able to engineer its system better as it is new and they can reap the benefits of previous experience from other countries, then yes, I agree that the way they're building their system is definitely best practice in terms of track and the curves, however, the superiority you speak of should be tempered with the knowledge that there has been a severe accident already on the system where technology was blamed, whereas there has not on the Japanese system despite it being the oldest high speed rail system in the world.


----------



## Pansori

Svartmetall said:


> Rolling stock superior - that's arguable. As for technologies signalling systems, I rate the Japanese as higher as it is proven technology that has allowed very high frequencies of trains to run - especially on the Tokaido Shinkansen without collision. Not only that, but their safety systems have been tested under extreme conditions on numerous occasions (earthquakes).
> 
> If you're talking about the fact that China has been able to engineer its system better as it is new and they can reap the benefits of previous experience from other countries, then yes, I agree that the way they're building their system is definitely best practice in terms of track and the curves, however, the superiority you speak of should be tempered with the knowledge that there has been a severe accident already on the system where technology was blamed, whereas there has not on the Japanese system despite it being the oldest high speed rail system in the world.


Will be able to make a fair comparison in perhaps 10 years once China completes its HSR system and urbanization.

As for the Wenzhou accident, I think it is important to see the broader picture. The main question here is whether the Chinese made conclusions and took relevant actions after the accident. They seemingly did. It would be very hard to underestimate the progress of the know-how when you build ten thousand km of HSR routes in a few years time and launch 1000 trainsets on them. Time is always a factor when it comes to having an overall good system (as Japan demonstrates as so does France) but it would be crazy to underestimate China's system given the context in which it is happening (scale of the system, money put in it, technologies acquired from _all_ possible sources). Yet the raw technical specs of the network actually _are_ better than those of Japan despite the fact that they have not achieved their full utilization yet. Signalling is part of that, however this is something you can tune up. On the other hand, you cannot tune up tracks with ballast to accommodate speeds of 350-380km/h. Or you cannot tune tracks with 4000m radius to act like ones with 7000m turn radius.

I do understand your point but I think we are talking slightly different things here and in essence they do not contradict each other.


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

gdolniak said:


> Has anybody noticed the (lack of) safety for the railway workers? I'm talking about simple things, like helmet, reflective work uniform, gloves, shoes...


Why do you need it? Save money and be a man.


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## Sunfuns

It still remains to be seen if any conventional trains are going to run at 350-380 km/h in China or elsewhere. As far as I understand costs in maintenance and energy consumption do not justify small amounts of extra time gained. Not with the current technology at least. 

There have been only three major HS rail accidents anywhere (right?) and of course lessons were learned from them. Still that doesn't erase them from existence...


----------



## foxmulder

Svartmetall said:


> :lol: China strong, yes everything is inferior and old in Japan. :nuts:
> 
> It's not that the line is too old. It was decided that it was uneconomical to run trains at 360km/h due to the amount of wear and tear that results on the overhead wires, the tracks and due to noise concerns - especially from tunnel boom. As the TGV showed, you can run trains at over 500km/h on regular tracks, however, the amount of damage done to those said tracks really does mitigate any advantages to be gained from higher speeds. Why on earth would you risk profitability for status?
> 
> The Shinkansen - especially the Tokaido line, runs an incredibly dense schedule, and the network transports 300 million per year across it. Given these figures, one has to consider economics and the cost-benefit ratio for increasing speed. Sure, in some cases there has been a drive for improvements in speed following the introduction of the next generation of rolling stock (for example between Tokyo and Shin-Aomori), but overall it's more about clever utilisation of resources to maximise profit vs. maintenance costs and environmental impact. If they can capture a market share from airlines on key routes within Japan at present, then they're doing their job well enough. The only other change will be the introduction of the maglev between Tokyo and Osaka (Chuo Shinkansen project). The technology used there mitigates the maintenance issues one faces with conventional steel wheel + rail when one increases speeds beyond 320km/h, thus this is the solution to the problem of wear and tear.
> 
> But if it makes you feel better, China is superior in every measure.



You gotta accept infrastructure is superior in China. Numbers do not lie. Average Japanese high speed railway is 40 years old. In China it is not even 4. Minimum turn radius, ballastless and elevated lines, larger diameter tunnels are the main parameters of the high speed line and numbers all favor Chinese network. 

Ask yourself this: If the Tokaido line built now, what standards it would have followed?


----------



## foxmulder

Pansori said:


> What lines did you use in Germany?
> 
> If Wikipedia is being accurate then there are only two 300km/h HSR lines in Germany at the moment:
> 
> - Ingolstadt to Nuremberg stretch of Nuremberg-Munich HSR
> - Cologne-Frankfurt (130km/h near Cologne where it joins conventional rail junction)
> 
> In general German HSR network looks a little patchy with only a few all-new lines while most being upgraded with speeds varying in different stretches.
> 
> France, Spain, Japan (Italy, South Korea too?) have complete HSR networks or varying size and density with continuous dedicated tracks which is why it would be more fair to mention those countries when talking about HSR. As silly walks mentioned Germany has a somewhat conservative approach to HSR. And, to be honest, I don't understand it. Perhaps because it was cheaper to upgrade old lines? Then again, Germany largely paid for Spain's brand new HSR network which is why such argument probably wouldn't make sense.
> 
> China, on the other hand has done it's network to a seemingly even higher spec than any of those countries (perhaps except Spain?).


Hannover-Frankfurt


----------



## Pansori

foxmulder said:


> Hannover-Frankfurt


That makes it clear. Part of the journey is on the Hanover–Würzburg HSR which is a 250-280km/h line while a good part of it (Fulda to Frankfurt) is on a conventional sub 160km/h (?) line. Hence inconsistency in speed.


----------



## flankerjun

Gadiri said:


> Concrete tracks for HSR are safe ? Since they are used (maybe since a decade), are there any problems of usury ?


advantage: 
stable,very low cost for maintaining.could run above 300km/h.
disadvantage: expensive to build,you need CNC to make track plate.once broken,difficult to repaire.


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## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> You gotta accept infrastructure is superior in China. Numbers do not lie. Average Japanese high speed railway is 40 years old.


You mean, average 1974?
Not so.
Opening dates:
Before 1974:
Tokaido Shinkansen, 1964, 515 km
Osaka-Okayama section of Sanyo Shinkansen, 1972, 161 km
total 676 km

Since 1974:
Okayama-Hakata section of Sanyo Shinkansen, 1975, 393 km

Omiya-Morioka section of Tohoku Shinkansen, June 1982, 465 km
Joetsu Shinkansen, 1982, 269 km
Nagano Shinkansen, 1997, 117 km
Morioka-Hachinohe section of Tohoku Shinkansen, 2002, 97 km
Kagoshima-Shin-Yatsushiro section of Kyushu Shinkansen, 2004, 127 km
Hachinohe-Shin-Aomori section of Tohoku Shinkansen, 2010, 82 km
Hakata-Shin-Yatsushiro section of Kyushu Shinkansen, 2011, 130 km
total: 1680 km



foxmulder said:


> Ask yourself this: If the Tokaido line built now, what standards it would have followed?


The curve radii were increased from 2500 m to 4000 m with the Sanyo Shinkansen of 1972, and have stayed there since. The lines now built, like Kyushu, Tohoku, Hokuriku or Hokkaido Shinkansens, have the same. The fastest Shinkansen, Utsunomiya-Morioka section of Tohoku Shinkansen, whose 320 km/h speed no Chinese railway matches, was opened back in 1982. 

Chuo Shinkansen being built now does have 8000 m curve radii - but it also plans 505 km/h speed.


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## augst6

Actually it's meaningless comparing apples with oranges.
Different terrain, different technology, different demand.
One bring superior in an aspect doesn't imply that it's superior in all and vice versa.
There is no best bullet trains or best high speed rail, just how beneficial they are to the people.
Really don't have to focus on comparing and determining who the winner is. Enjoy! 

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk


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## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> Chuo Shinkansen being built now does have 8000 m curve radii - but it also plans 505 km/h speed.


That's not HSR, that's a bragging match. :bash:


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## Pansori

augst6 said:


> Actually it's meaningless comparing apples with oranges.
> Different terrain, different technology, different demand.
> One bring superior in an aspect doesn't imply that it's superior in all and vice versa.
> There is no best bullet trains or best high speed rail, just how beneficial they are to the people.
> Really don't have to focus on comparing and determining who the winner is. Enjoy!
> 
> Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk


It's perfectly meaningful to compare various parameters of HSR in a topic dedicated to HSR including infrastructure specs, reliability, efficiency etc. What is indeed meaningless is the attempt to make this topic a politically correct one. 

I think over the last few dozens of posts we established a number of things which are just good to know for those who are interested in the HSR topic in China and elsewhere. If we'll stick to the "all HSR systems are equally good" then it will make it harder to actually improve our knowledge and understanding.


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## Sopomon

> all HSR systems are equally good


Except exactly no one said, nor inferred that.


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## Silly_Walks

xinxingren said:


> That's not HSR, that's a bragging match. :bash:


It's high speed, and it's on a rail :bash:


:lol:


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## Pansori

Sopomon said:


> Except exactly no one said, nor inferred that.


It's a reference to implications that we shall not discuss anything because it's all 'apples and oranges' anyway.

My point is that pretty much everything can be compared and we shall do that.


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## Sopomon

^^
Making broad comparisons of the whole system between two of them isn't helpful though, but comparisons of specific parts - passenger numbers, speed, safety record, profit margins, etc - is certainly viable. It's just dumb to claim an entire system is outright "better" than another - as you then have to start discussing what constitutes "better" and the weighting of individual factors that comprise "better".


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## GroßerMeister

i like the new chinese trainsets :cheers:


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## Pansori

Sopomon said:


> ^^
> Making broad comparisons of the whole system between two of them isn't helpful though, but comparisons of specific parts - passenger numbers, speed, safety record, profit margins, etc - is certainly viable. It's just dumb to claim an entire system is outright "better" than another - as you then have to start discussing what constitutes "better" and the weighting of individual factors that comprise "better".


Of course. Absolutely agree on that and I already explained myself in my previous posts.


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## doc7austin

> Originally Posted by doc7austin View Post
> Just take another seat!
> You can only sit at the seat on your ticket.


@Silly_Walks: If there are free seats, each passenger is free to relocate to that seat - thats certainly true for daytime trains in French, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany (and even China).
The conductor wont care, as long as you have ticket+reservation for right train and class.

I thought you are an experienced train traveller.
When you seat is sh*t and the train is empty - you think - you are not allowed to move?
And I hardly have seen a train, where really 100% of all seats were occupied.


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## :jax:

While I have been in Japan, I haven't used their HSR and cannot compare, besides it is too much like nation vs nation contests that quickly get boring.

But on the parametres new vs old I would say old (prerequisite: well-maintained, functioning) has a slight edge. New is shinier, more pleasing, and usually has fresher technology. Older is experienced, with startup gremlins fixed, but the real edge is that in a decade the new system will be old(er) too. 

In other words if we had two rail networks, identical in all aspects except that one is an average of two years old and the other twenty, I would say that the latter is a little better.


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## :jax:

Rail systems could be compared on technical specifications (highest operating speed, highest average speed, length of track, energy efficiency, or what have you), or on its practical functionality (actual travel time, reliability, comfort, ease of orientation, ease of getting tickets, affordability, integration, locations, usability...), economy (for the traveller, the transporter, society), impact on the environment...

On some of these criteria the Chinese HSR system is the best in the world, on others it does less well.


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## Attus

I think this discuss has no sense at all. 
Rail system are very different. But the nations, towns, population densities, population distributions, etc., are very different. I'm 100% sure that Deutsche Bahn would in Chine build a rail system which is very similar to the existing one, and CRH would in Germany build an ICE-network which is very similar to the existing one. 
The rail system differ not because Chinese are good and German are bad or vice versa but because German needs differ heavily from Chinese needs.


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## kunming tiger

Attus said:


> I think this discuss has no sense at all.
> Rail system are very different. But the nations, towns, population densities, population distributions, etc., are very different. I'm 100% sure that Deutsche Bahn would in Chine build a rail system which is very similar to the existing one, and CRH would in Germany build an ICE-network which is very similar to the existing one.
> The rail system differ not because Chinese are good and German are bad or vice versa but because German needs differ heavily from Chinese needs.


 
That's an understatement.


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## foxmulder

Sopomon said:


> ^^
> Making broad comparisons of the whole system between two of them isn't helpful though, but comparisons of specific parts - passenger numbers, speed, safety record, profit margins, etc - is certainly viable. It's just dumb to claim an entire system is outright "better" than another - as you then have to start discussing what constitutes "better" and the weighting of individual factors that comprise "better".



Who is doing that whole system comparison?

Min curve radii, line being elevated or not, tunnel diameters, ballastless or not... These are quite specific and measurable technical specifications. These numbers are not opinions.


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## Pansori

foxmulder said:


> Who is doing that whole system comparison?
> 
> Min curve radii, line being elevated or not, tunnel diameters, ballastless or not... These are quite specific and measurable technical specifications. These numbers are not opinions.


Precisely! For whatever reason some find it 'pointless' to compare. I actually find it very interesting.


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## Svartmetall

foxmulder said:


> Who is doing that whole system comparison?
> 
> Min curve radii, line being elevated or not, tunnel diameters, ballastless or not... These are quite specific and measurable technical specifications. These numbers are not opinions.


But you can have all bells and whistles but still have a bad system. I think :Jax: summed this point up quite succinctly. In any case, each HSR system has been adapted for local needs. One of the key points for me at least is that the system is profitable, successful in capturing transport mode, operates reliably, operates safely and operates a good schedule. These to me are hallmarks of "advanced" and "successful" systems. 

Anyway, I think this discussion has been hashed out quite a bit. There are those in my camp on this, and there are those that consider technical specifications and potential to be the most important factors for the railway. Neither argument is wrong or right.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Svartmetall said:


> Nozomi #40 speed between Tokyo and Hakata, a distance of 1174.9km covered in 308 minutes. Average speed of 228.8km/h.


That distance is official, but wrong. 1174,9 km is the official distance because it is the distance on the zairaisen main line.
The distance along shinkansen is different, and shorter. It is 1069,1 km.
Fastest Nozomi takes 296 minutes for the distance - but it is the fists morning train. Over the day, Nozomis take at least 304 minutes. So the top speed is 216,7 km/h.
Comparable CRH distances might be Beijing-Nanjing, 1023 km, and Beijing-Wuhan, real distance along CRH 1136 km.


Svartmetall said:


> though of course, as distance goes up and stations per km goes down, then of course average speed will be greater, so it stands to reason the longest CRH lines will have a better average speed compared to the more frequent stops of the Shinkansen (even the fastest ones make a good number of stops).


Nozomi makes standard 10 intermediate stops. 
On Beijing-Nanjing, G33 has 7 stops and takes 4:28. But D315, that makes 11 stops, takes 7:59; D319 has 13 stops yet arrives in 7:13.
On Beijing-Hankou, G525 makes 11 stops and takes 5:38.


Svartmetall said:


> But speed isn't everything. When talking about specifications one needs to consider, frequency, positioning, safety, reliability, comfort etc. It's not just about raw speed.


My point is that Shinkansen actually stop at a lot of places - and mostly do so in established central city stations, where people work and public transport go. And still sustain high average speeds.


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## Sunfuns

In my opinion one of the most important things is integration of HS rail with other modes of transport. Not sure how good or not so good it currently is in China. For example if one arrives with HS rail in Beijing ending up in Beijing South station, how much extra time would be needed on average to reach city centre from there? 

Rail systems are indeed adapted to host country needs, but what those needs are is not so obvious. Germans could have built more dedicated lines bypassing smaller cities and it would still be fine, same with Chinese building slightly slower system but taking care to stop in the city centre as much as possible.


----------



## Pansori

Sunfuns said:


> In my opinion one of the most important things is integration of HS rail with other modes of transport. Not sure how good or not so good it currently is in China. For example if one arrives with HS rail in Beijing ending up in Beijing South station, how much extra time would be needed on average to reach city centre from there?


Beijing South is about 5km from Tiananmen Square. Shouldn't take more than 15 minutes by metro. This is indeed very close by Chinese standards. Shanghai Hongqiao and Guangzhou South would be around 15km (30 min.) while Shenzhen North about 8km (15min.). Shenzhen, however, is building an underground Futian CRH station which will be right under the main CBD.



> Rail systems are indeed adapted to host country needs, but what those needs are is not so obvious. Germans could have built more dedicated lines bypassing smaller cities and it would still be fine, same with Chinese building slightly slower system but taking care to stop in the city centre as much as possible.


Problem is that to build a station the size of Beijing South (or any of the large stations that they built over the past few years) it would take a good chunk of the city center to be wiped off the map. That would be too much.

I have posted this before but I think it's relevant to this point: pictures from Google Earth which give some idea about the size of those stations









Compare it to some stations in Europe to have a better perception of the scale:










Another option could be building underground stations. However that would probably be too much of an engineering challenge and not very cost effective. Shenzhen seems to be one of the few cases where they are actually building such a station (Futian). But Shenzhen is a new city in itself and it's probably much easier to do it there than it would be in most other cities. And even in spite of that it's nowhere near on the scale of the vast new overground stations.

Some CRH services do serve some old more centrally located stations but I guess their capacity is very limited.


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## Sunfuns

It doesn't really belong here, but there is no better place. According to rail journal.com currently 60% of high speed trains (capable of 200 km/h or more) are located in Western Europe and 38% in East Asia. China has the single largest number with about 20%. It is expected that by 2020 it will be about 50-40 between these two hotspots as some other areas also get into the game.


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## Pansori

Sunfuns said:


> It doesn't really belong here, but there is no better place. According to rail journal.com currently 60% of high speed trains (capable of 200 km/h or more) are located in Western Europe and 38% in East Asia. China has the single largest number with about 20%. It is expected that by 2020 it will be about 50-40 between these two hotspots as some other areas also get into the game.


What does is measure? Number of actual trainsets? Length of routes? Passenger kilometers? :?
Do you have a link?


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## Sunfuns

You have a valid point, although smaller sizes of stations in Paris and London are deceiving because both cities have multiple terminal stations of similar size. No chance whatsoever of fitting all Parisian train traffic in just Gare du Nord...


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## Sunfuns

Pansori said:


> What does is measure? *Number of actual trainsets?* Length of routes? Passenger kilometers? :?


Number of train sets capable of 200 km/h or more. It was an article about trends in rolling stock market.


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## Pansori

Sunfuns said:


> Number of train sets capable of 200 km/h or more. It was an article about trends in rolling stock market.


According to Wikipedia article on CRH, in 2011 China should have had 744 CRH trainsets most of which are capable of at least 200km/h. 

How many 200+ km/h trainsets there are in Europe? Japan?

I just find it a little strange that China, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea would only account for 38% of all trainsets.


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## Sunfuns

Pansori said:


> According to Wikipedia article on CRH, in 2011 China should have had 744 CRH trainsets most of which are capable of at least 200km/h.
> 
> How many 200+ km/h trainsets there are in Europe? Japan?
> 
> I just find it a little strange that China, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea would only account for 38% of all trainsets.


There are a lot of train sets in Europe capable of 200 km/h in places which do not have any 250 km/h+ traffic. In UK, for example, there are hundreds, many trains in Scandinavia are also capable of this speed. Of course France has an enormous fleet, all German ICE's can go that fast. It wasn't divided further among countries, but the total number they cite world-wide is about 3,200 train sets.


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## Sunfuns

Pansori said:


> I just find it a little strange that China, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea would only account for 38% of all trainsets.


I think Korea and Taiwan is small potatoes here, from those 38% (assuming they counted accurately) 36% is probably just China and Japan.


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## Pansori

Sunfuns said:


> I think Korea and Taiwan is small potatoes here, from those 38% (assuming they counted accurately) 36% is probably just China and Japan.


My very rough calculation gives a number of HS trainsets in Japan somewhere in the range of 500 (is that anywhere near correct?). if so, then Japan, China, Korea and Taiwan combined should have something like 1500 trainsets. It's just hard for me to see where all the trainsets in Europe come from? There are 550+ in France, 200+ in UK, a hundred or so in Germany, 100+ in Spain. Italy? Russia? Still it probably makes it just over a 1000 trainsets.


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## phoenixboi08

I keep having this argument with a friend (and neither of us can find an answer though I think I'm right ): is there any data/figure for the percentage of new, PDL that are on viaducts? 

He seems to think there was a decision to simply throw them up since maintenance would be less, which on its face seems silly. More importantly, I tend to view the decision to use viaducts - at least in the vast majority of systems around in the world - is a product of design and engineering (i.e. if we have to climb a mountain in another 100km, we either tunnel through it or cross it. If we do the latter, why not spend the last 150-200km climbing a gradual gradient than trying to scale it once we get there?)

This is going to go on until I can figure out some way to determine what the official design of the system seems to be.


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## Silly_Walks

doc7austin said:


> @Silly_Walks: If there are free seats, each passenger is free to relocate to that seat - thats certainly true for daytime trains in French, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany (and even China).
> The conductor wont care, as long as you have ticket+reservation for right train and class.
> 
> I thought you are an experienced train traveller.
> When you seat is sh*t and the train is empty - you think - you are not allowed to move?
> And I hardly have seen a train, where really 100% of all seats were occupied.


Carriage was full, assigned seats were mandatory.


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## flankerjun

the reason why the stations are located in suburbs is various

1. to get a bigger curve radius,to get a higher average speed.as i post several days ago,if stations are located in downtown ,you will need extra 15min.if there are too many stations,you will waste too much time.
BUT now,the number of stations has no influence on the average speed.

2. land in suburbs is much cheap,they have enough space to build a rail port.
the old stations have been built for decades,there are no space for new CRH trains.new stations are indeed a practical demand.

3.to develop a new CBD.stations always located in the core area of a city,they need new core aread.


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## Silver Swordsman

Sunfuns said:


> Is there really a country with unreliable and inconvenient high speed rail? I can't think of any. Complaints are mostly about non-existing HS rail...


Taiwan. 

Before they built the spur lines connecting the downtown region to the station (usually built in unpopulated areas to save alignment costs), it could take up to 40 minutes to get to stations like Chiayi, Tainan, or Hsinchu. Since taking HSR only shaves off 2-3 hours of travel time (except for end-to-end trips) on intermediate trips, it becomes absurd to pay over twice the railfare to save little over an hour. 

Example: Hsinchu to Tainan (Before Liujia and Shalun lines opened)

40min (to HSR station)
70min (HSR ride)
40min (to destination)

110 min (little under 2 hrs)
Price: 1160NT


10min (to TRA station)
140min (TRA train ride)
10min (to destination)

160min (2hrs 40min)
Price: 560NT


This is why THSR suffered from extremely low ridership in the beginning. It just didn't make sense at the time; and yet, despite all Republican beliefs that such a system would never work, THSR managed to kick out the airlines and break even.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> Problem is that to build a station the size of Beijing South (or any of the large stations that they built over the past few years) it would take a good chunk of the city center to be wiped off the map. That would be too much.
> 
> Some CRH services do serve some old more centrally located stations but I guess their capacity is very limited.


How big is Tokyo Station, for comparison?


----------



## doc7austin

> Carriage was full,


In Thalys trains there are usually a number of non-reserved seats.



> assigned seats were mandatory.


Well, for almost all Thalys trains you need a reservation to enter.
It is mandatory to have a reservation(e.g. assigned seat).
However, it is not mandatory to sit at the reserved seats. Thats a big difference.



> Carriage was full,


Maybe you car was full.
Having travelled a number of times with Thalys, it is hard to believe that all seats in your class were occupied.


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## hmmwv

Pansori said:


> In that case the total in Asia should be something nearer to 1700?


Going with Wikipedia number I counted 34 700T, 386 Shinkansen and 66 KTX trainsets in service, so the total Asian HSR trainsets is right around 1500.

In Europe I counted 506 TGV, 259 ICE, 60 in Italy, and 96 in Spain. I didn't count other countries but I find it hard to believe HSR trainsets in Europe is anywhere near 1500.


----------



## Pansori

hmmwv said:


> Going with Wikipedia number I counted 34 700T, 386 Shinkansen and 66 KTX trainsets in service, so the total Asian HSR trainsets is right around 1500.
> 
> In Europe I counted 506 TGV, 259 ICE, 60 in Italy, and 96 in Spain. I didn't count other countries but I find it hard to believe HSR trainsets in Europe is anywhere near 1500.


Don't forget another major player UK. It may not be famous for HSR like France or Japan but trains do go at 200km/h there. I quickly ran through Wikipedia and counted at least 435 trainsets in UK which are doing 200km/h or more in regular service. Should be a couple of hundred more in the rest of Europe. So I guess we're looking at something in the range of 1600-1700 trainsets.


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## Sunfuns

hmmwv said:


> Going with Wikipedia number I counted 34 700T, 386 Shinkansen and 66 KTX trainsets in service, so the total Asian HSR trainsets is right around 1500.
> 
> In Europe I counted 506 TGV, 259 ICE, 60 in Italy, and 96 in Spain. I didn't count other countries but I find it hard to believe HSR trainsets in Europe is anywhere near 1500.


It depends where you put a limit. The numbers I posted earlier where for *200 km/h+ trains*, the ones you are posting now are for 250 km/h+ (300?) and that makes a difference.


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## Pansori

Sunfuns said:


> It depends where you put a limit. The numbers I posted earlier where for *200 km/h+ trains*, the ones you are posting now are for 250 km/h+ (300?) and that makes a difference.


I wonder what is going to be the rollout rate of new 200+ km/h capable CRH trains in China over the next few years (say until 2018)? 

Given the amount of new lines to be put online during 2014-2016 the numbers should be pretty damn big. Unless other countries would rollout new trainsets at a crazy rate too? But that doesn't look very likely because no other place has such a high amount of new lines coming online or even train building capacity.


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## hmmwv

I agree that if we count all 200km/h trainsets the number will be different.

As for Chinese HSR fleet they probably need another 1000 before 2020 to satisfy new lines as well as increase frequencies on existing ones. Japan has a quarter of China's HSR network but 1/2 of the number of trainsets. The other thing is CRH6, most of it won't count as HSR trainset because they are 160km/h, but mass transit agencies around China will be ordering massive numbers of that train too, We are probably looking at 200-300 trainsets of various CRH6 variants.

As more long lines are putting into service they will need more trainsets, simply because the turnaround time is going to be so long. Also I really, really, really hope they start overnight services (I was stuck in NKG for 9 hrs on CNY eve, wish we had an overnight CRH train to Sichuan), that'll significant increase demand for HSR sleeper trains. Taking into consideration of possible exports and replacement of older trains I think we can expect CNR and CSR to run at the current production rate for the next ten years.


----------



## Pansori

hmmwv said:


> I think we can expect CNR and CSR to run at the current production rate for the next ten years.


What is the production rate at the moment? Even if approximate?


----------



## hmmwv

Pansori said:


> What is the production rate at the moment? Even if approximate?


I don't have specifics but I know at the height of the buildup (~2010-11) the production rate is well over 200 trainsets a year. Then they didn't order anything until early 2013, so the rate dropped dramatically. What I've heard is that currently the production rate is between 120-140 trainsets. Considering several new facilities came online since 2010 such as CSR Jiangmen the current capacity should be around 250 trainsets.


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## Sunfuns

Pansori said:


> Given the amount of new lines to be put online during 2014-2016 the numbers should be pretty damn big. Unless other countries would rollout new trainsets at a crazy rate too? But that doesn't look very likely because no other place has such a high amount of new lines coming online or even train building capacity.


Other countries won't have a massive rollout of new trainsets for obvious reasons however in the more established user countries some of the newly built rolling stock will be for replacement of old trains not just to serve new lines. 

As for brand new lines there is not a lot by Chinese standards in the next 5-6 years, but it isn't nothing either. I'd estimate about 500 km in France, 200 in Germany, 700 in Spain, ca 400 (?) in Turkey, 150 in Morocco, ca 150 in Denmark, some small stretches in Austria/Switzerland. Total in Europe and surrounding regions could be 2,000-2,500 km of 250 km/h+ of newly built lines.


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## Pansori

I made another couple of charts showing the length of China's HSR network by year.

I used numbers (including years on which relevant lines were/will be put in operation) which are provided in English Wikipedia. While 300-350km/h data seems to be reliable I got some confusion over 200km/h. Not least because 200km/h lines are a mix of upgraded and new railways. Anyway I think the numbers should be more or less correct.

Another thing i wasn't sure about was the Lanzhou-Urumqi railway. I included it in the 300+ km/h stats because that's what it's supposedly going to be. In Wikipedia (and elsewhere) it is marked as a 300km/h railway (as opposed to 350km/h for most other trunk lines lines). Does that means they are actually intending to run trains at 300km/h on that line? Or will they go at perhaps 250km/h? I draw such a question from the fact that after the slowdown campaign trains are running 300km/h on 350km/h lines and 200km/h on 250km/h lines.


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## flankerjun

Changchun factory


----------



## China Hand

Pansori said:


> Does that means they are actually intending to run trains at 300km/h on that line? Or will they go at perhaps 250km/h? I draw such a question from the fact that after the slowdown campaign trains are running 300km/h on 350km/h lines and 200km/h on 250km/h lines.


Look to the Haerbin line. It has cold weather issues similar to the one out to Ulumuqi, which also has elevation and tunnel issues.


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## Pansori

China Hand said:


> Look to the Haerbin line. It has cold weather issues similar to the one out to Ulumuqi, which also has elevation and tunnel issues.


That is understandable. However I would still like to get more clarification on whether trains will actually run at 300km/h there (even if not all year long).


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## China Hand

My understanding is that they will. Lanzhou to Urumuqi is going to be a 300/350kph line. 7000m turn radius means 350. There is a lot of CRH finalising this year and next, just keep reading the board and updates will appear. When the timetables come out you can do the Maths on avg velocity.


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## Pansori

Ok thanks. This actually IS the best English language source on Chinese HSR 

I also wondered if there are any services in China running at 250km/h on 250km/h lines (NOT on 350km/h lines) these days? Most 'slow' HSR lines in China are 250km/h but my understanding is that after the 2011 slowdown they're only operating at 200 (maybe up to 210)km/h?


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## Cosmicbliss

Why do CRH trains not run at night? Do trains in general in China not run at night? Any reasons for the same?


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## urbanfan89

High speed tracks require daily maintenance, carried out at night. As more high speed trains are introduced, sleeper trains are reduced to permit more profitable freight trains.

Strange fact: Chinese railway ticket prices have been frozen since 1996 by government fiat. To circumvent this, trains are relabelled express, super express, etc to allow higher ticket prices. Replacing sleepers with high speed trains allow further ticket price hikes while officially maintaining the freeze on fares.


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## Pansori

Can somebody explain me why the train schedule on 12306.cn does not show the G79 Beijing to Guangzhou train on any of the days before February 26th? Is it not running at this time of year or what?


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## chornedsnorkack

Cosmicbliss said:


> Why do CRH trains not run at night? Do trains in general in China not run at night? Any reasons for the same?


Trains in general in China do run at night. Slow speed railway lines surely must need maintenance, yet long distance slow speed trains run through day and night. For example, there are 2 daily slow speed trains Beijing-Shanghai, namely 1461, that takes 20 hours 14 minutes departing 11:54, and arriving 8:08 next morning, and T109 that takes 14 hours 48 minutes departing 19:33 and arriving 10:21 next day.
But there are also 3 D trains nightly, numbers D313, D311 and D321. These take 11:41 to 11:42, departing 19:34, 21:16 and 21:23 and arriving 7:15, 8:58 and 9:04 next morning. They offer soft sleepers, but also second class seats not hard seats, so looks like they are CRH trains. Yet tey cover 1454 km Beijing South to Shanghai - so looks like they run on slow speed railway at night, not on high speed line.


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## laojang

Pansori said:


> Can somebody explain me why the train schedule on 12306.cn does not show the G79 Beijing to Guangzhou train on any of the days before February 26th? Is it not running at this time of year or what?


It is said that they have some scheduling problem
due to the CNY rush. They have to sacrifice this one
since it has the fewest stops. Hopefully it will be ok
next year.

Laojang


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## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Trains in general in China do run at night. Slow speed railway lines surely must need maintenance, yet long distance slow speed trains run through day and night.


The conventional lines do not need daily inspection, high speed rail tracks in China are designed with such high of precision that daily CIT (comprehensive inspection train) are required to run daily to check any possible deformation on tracks and wires. If any errors are detected a sleeper tender train will follow to perform calibration. Conventional rail has a much higher error tolerance so a millimeter of track sink won't be an issue.


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## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> The conventional lines do not need daily inspection, high speed rail tracks in China are designed with such high of precision that daily CIT (comprehensive inspection train) are required to run daily to check any possible deformation on tracks and wires. If any errors are detected a sleeper tender train will follow to perform calibration.


Even if the inspection on slow speed lines is less frequent than daily, it does need to be carried out sometimes. At which times?


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> Even if the inspection on slow speed lines is less frequent than daily, it does need to be carried out sometimes. At which times?


At any and all times. You'll notice ordinary trains slow down while passing trackside maintenance crews. Sometimes ordinary trains are held up for a couple of hours, or rescheduled to a diferent time of day for a week to allow work on the line. By having inspections and maintenance all night every night on HSR they avoid (so far) disruptions to the train running schedules.


----------



## Anders_W

Maby a silly question, but I post it anyway: Do the tail lights of HSR-trains flash or are they steady?

(I'm installing lights in a stationary model of a CRH 380A.)

Best regards


----------



## Silver Swordsman

steady.


----------



## foxmulder

Anders_W said:


> Maby a silly question, but I post it anyway: Do the tail lights of HSR-trains flash or are they steady?
> 
> (I'm installing lights in a stationary model of a CRH 380A.)
> 
> Best regards


where did you find the model? Can you share some info-scale/pictures?


----------



## hmmwv

This is old news but I didn't see it posted here, first CRH6A has started service on the Chengdu-Dujiangyan ICL.


----------



## Silly_Walks

What is that train's max speed, and what is the max speed it currently runs at on that line?


----------



## Pansori

Silly_Walks said:


> What is that train's max speed, and what is the max speed it currently runs at on that line?


CRH6A is a 200km/h trainset. I wonder about the second part of your question though.


----------



## Fan Railer

Pansori said:


> CRH6A is a 200km/h trainset. I wonder about the second part of your question though.


A quick wiki search answers your question fairly painlessly. You should try doing that some time 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu–Dujiangyan_Intercity_Railway

http://news.sina.com.cn/o/2014-02-12/045929440790.shtml

Also, a clip of the CRH6A arriving at a station:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjcxOTk4Mzk2.html


----------



## Pansori

Fan Railer said:


> A quick wiki search answers your question fairly painlessly. You should try doing that some time
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu–Dujiangyan_Intercity_Railway
> 
> http://news.sina.com.cn/o/2014-02-12/045929440790.shtml
> 
> Also, a clip of the CRH6A arriving at a station:
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjcxOTk4Mzk2.html



The question was:



> what is the max speed it *currently runs* at on that line?


Could you be kind and cite exact part from your sources where it mentions the actual max speed that CRH6A runs at on that line? It's either not there or my eyes are letting me down.


----------



## Fan Railer

Pansori said:


> The question was:
> 
> 
> 
> Could you be kind and cite exact part from your sources where it mentions the actual max speed that CRH6A runs at on that line? It's either not there or my eyes are letting me down.


Logic would dictate that the answer to the question would be in the very first link I posted. Try reading through the material again.

Otherwise, I am quite sure if the top speed of the CRH1As on that line are higher than the top speed of the CRH6A, there is no reason for them to be running the CRH6A at a lower speed than it is designed for, unless they are limiting it for the short term until it clears a certain amount of revenue kilometers without failure. This is what they do in the US when new stock is introduced, but I am not familiar if China practices the same standards.


----------



## hmmwv

Pansori said:


> The question was:
> 
> 
> 
> Could you be kind and cite exact part from your sources where it mentions the actual max speed that CRH6A runs at on that line? It's either not there or my eyes are letting me down.


I believe the train actually runs at 160km/h, and the quickest one with one stop will take 41 minutes to complete the 65km long trip.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

I thought a train had to hit at least 200km/h before it could be classified as a "D" train. Maybe I'm wrong? 


The CRH6A looks nice but I kinda miss it having the CRH logo like the CRH1 trains do. 

Will the CRH6A replace the CRH1's or is the plan to run them at the same time?


----------



## hmmwv

The current train number system is kind of messed up, technically they should be C trains as intercity services. This is the case for suburban lines such as Shanghai-Jinshanwei, but also on main very high speed intercity lines such as Beijing-Tianjin. So count me surprised that they carry D numbers. The previous 200km/h upgraded line D trains were slowed to 160km/h in 2011, so D trains can definitely go slower.

I think eventually they will all get a dedicated number for suburban commuter lines, once the lines are widespread enough across China. And those services will be handed over to local mass transit operator instead of CRC.


----------



## Pansori

Fan Railer said:


> Logic would dictate that the answer to the question would be in the very first link I posted. Try reading through the material again.
> 
> Otherwise, I am quite sure if the top speed of the CRH1As on that line are higher than the top speed of the CRH6A, there is no reason for them to be running the CRH6A at a lower speed than it is designed for, unless they are limiting it for the short term until it clears a certain amount of revenue kilometers without failure. This is what they do in the US when new stock is introduced, but I am not familiar if China practices the same standards.


I am very well aware of that Wikipedia Article (as well as all other articles on China's railway system). However it doesn't answer the question. And it was a very simple one and should be taken literally. Assumptions don't count. Do we know what speed those trains *actually run* on that line or not? If yes, we need a source clearly showing that. If not why even bother to reply?


----------



## Pansori

hmmwv said:


> I believe the train actually runs at 160km/h, and the quickest one with one stop will take 41 minutes to complete the 65km long trip.


Is Dujiangyan not spelled 都江堰 in Chinese?

Ok I got it. Qingchengshan is two stops away from Dujiangyan on the same railway.


----------



## FM 2258

Pansori said:


> I am very well aware of that Wikipedia Article (as well as all other articles on China's railway system). However it doesn't answer the question. And it was a very simple one and should be taken literally. Assumptions don't count. Do we know what speed those trains *actually run* on that line or not? If yes, we need a source clearly showing that. If not why even bother to reply?


I noticed the Wikipedia article only shows the max speed for CRH1 trains. Other than improved power efficiency I thought they might run faster than CRH1 trains...really not sure.


----------



## richard fischer

Pansori said:


> Beijing South is about 5km from Tiananmen Square. Shouldn't take more than 15 minutes by metro. This is indeed very close by Chinese standards. Shanghai Hongqiao and Guangzhou South would be around 15km (30 min.) while Shenzhen North about 8km (15min.). Shenzhen, however, is building an underground Futian CRH station which will be right under the main CBD.
> 
> 
> 
> Problem is that to build a station the size of Beijing South (or any of the large stations that they built over the past few years) it would take a good chunk of the city center to be wiped off the map. That would be too much.
> 
> I have posted this before but I think it's relevant to this point: pictures from Google Earth which give some idea about the size of those stations
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compare it to some stations in Europe to have a better perception of the scale:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another option could be building underground stations. However that would probably be too much of an engineering challenge and not very cost effective. Shenzhen seems to be one of the few cases where they are actually building such a station (Futian). But Shenzhen is a new city in itself and it's probably much easier to do it there than it would be in most other cities. And even in spite of that it's nowhere near on the scale of the vast new overground stations.
> 
> Some CRH services do serve some old more centrally located stations but I guess their capacity is very limited.


*Berlin is such a station. Most tracks are underground. That is why you only see 4 tracks from birds view.*


----------



## phoenixboi08

richard fischer said:


> Berlin is such a station. Most tracks are underground. That is why you only see 4 tracks from birds view.


It's also influenced by the way platforms are arranged. I think it makes sense for many busy stations in China in terms of passenger flow (and they still have the room to build them that wide).


----------



## hmmwv

Pansori said:


> Is Dujiangyan not spelled 都江堰 in Chinese?
> 
> Ok I got it. Qingchengshan is two stops away from Dujiangyan on the same railway.


Yeah Qingchengshan is the terminus of the line but belongs to the city of Dujiangyan.


----------



## foxmulder

richard fischer said:


> *Berlin is such a station. Most tracks are underground. That is why you only see 4 tracks from birds view.*


Well, we see 6 of them and there are 8 underground so total 14.


----------



## China Hand

hmmwv said:


> This is old news but I didn't see it posted here, first CRH6A has started service on the Chengdu-Dujiangyan ICL.


This is a commuter line that services the tourist area around DjJiangYan hydraulic works.

160+kms/hour. ~60kms.


----------



## keber

foxmulder said:


> Well, we see 6 of them and there are 8 underground so total 14.


And there are two additional tracks of U-Bahn line between both platforms (still underground).


----------



## foxmulder

keber said:


> And there are two additional tracks of U-Bahn line between both platforms (still underground).


Many train stations have metro connections...


----------



## cfredo

^^
Exactly most (all?) of those Chinese stations have underground metro connections.


----------



## China Hand

cfredo said:


> ^^
> Exactly most (all?) of those Chinese stations have underground metro connections.


Usually. It's a joint build, those mega-stations are built in cities with a metro and so far they all have been next to metro stations. Wuhan has a station, but the subway not built yet - station is there, though. Zhengzhou, Guangzhou South, Shanghai, Shenzhen North, Beijing South, Xi'an North all have subways adjacent or in the building.

Xiamen I do not know. Planned, perhaps.

Nanjing has an extensive metro, so probably.


----------



## drezdinski

The common practice of Chinese station building is to construct a metro station, which will be put in use once the tube passes by, in case it isn't already there.


----------



## ramakrishna1984

China's Beijing-Guangzhou high-speed line, which opened in December 2012, is currently the world's longest high-speed railway line with a total length of 2,298km


Check the list of Longest High speed Lines in the world and Did you know China Holds Six out of top ten list 

http://www.railway-technology.com/f...lds-longest-high-speed-railway-lines-4149752/


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> Usually. It's a joint build, those mega-stations are built in cities with a metro and so far they all have been next to metro stations. Wuhan has a station, but the subway not built yet - station is there, though. Zhengzhou, Guangzhou South, Shanghai, Shenzhen North, Beijing South, Xi'an North all have subways adjacent or in the building.
> 
> Xiamen I do not know. Planned, perhaps.
> 
> Nanjing has an extensive metro, so probably.


"Most" of which stations?
Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway has 23 stations on main line, including termini.

Beijing South - 13 platforms, Metro line 4
Langfang - 2 platforms, no metro
Tianjin South - 2 platforms, supposedly Metro Line 3
Cangzhou West - 2 platforms, no metro
Denzhou East - 3 platforms, no metro
Jinan West - 8 platforms, no metro
Taian - 2 platforms, no metro
Qufu East - 2 platforms, no metro
Tengzhou East - 2 platforms, no metro
Zaozhuang - 2 platforms, no metro
Xuzhou East - 7 platforms, no metro
Suzhou East - 2 platforms, no metro
Bengbu South - 5 platforms, no metro
Dingyuan - 2 platforms, no metro
Chuzhou - 2 platforms, no metro
Nanjing South - 15 platforms, Metro line 1
Zhenjiang South - 2 platforms, no metro
Danyang North - 2 platforms, no metro
Changzhou North - 2 platforms, no metro
Wuxi East - 2 platforms, no metro
Suzhou North - 2 platforms, supposedly Metro Line 2
Kunshan South - 2 platforms, no metro
Shanghai Hongqiao - 16 platforms, Metro Lines 2 and 10
5 out of the 23 have metro - 18 out of 23 have not.
Stations as big as Jinan West, 8 platforms, and Xuzhou East, 7 platforms, have no metro.
What do Jinan West or Xuzhou East look like?


----------



## Pansori

chornedsnorkack said:


> "Most" of which stations?
> Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway has 23 stations on main line, including termini.
> 
> [*]Beijing South - 13 platforms, Metro line 4
> [*]Langfang - 2 platforms, no metro
> [*]Tianjin South - 2 platforms, supposedly Metro Line 3
> [*]Cangzhou West - 2 platforms, no metro
> [*]Denzhou East - 3 platforms, no metro
> [*]Jinan West - 8 platforms, no metro
> [*]Taian - 2 platforms, no metro
> [*]Qufu East - 2 platforms, no metro
> [*]Tengzhou East - 2 platforms, no metro
> [*]Zaozhuang - 2 platforms, no metro
> [*]Xuzhou East - 7 platforms, no metro
> [*]Suzhou East - 2 platforms, no metro
> [*]Bengbu South - 5 platforms, no metro
> [*]Dingyuan - 2 platforms, no metro
> [*]Chuzhou - 2 platforms, no metro
> [*]Nanjing South - 15 platforms, Metro line 1
> [*]Zhenjiang South - 2 platforms, no metro
> [*]Danyang North - 2 platforms, no metro
> [*]Changzhou North - 2 platforms, no metro
> [*]Wuxi East - 2 platforms, no metro
> [*]Suzhou North - 2 platforms, supposedly Metro Line 2
> [*]Kunshan South - 2 platforms, no metro
> [*]Shanghai Hongqiao - 16 platforms, Metro Lines 2 and 10
> 
> 5 out of the 23 have metro - 18 out of 23 have not.
> Stations as big as Jinan West, 8 platforms, and Xuzhou East, 7 platforms, have no metro.
> What do Jinan West or Xuzhou East look like?


He wrote mega-stations. Like Hongqiao 
, Shenzhen North, Guangzhou South, Beijing South etc. Stations with 4 or 8 platforms are not really mega stations.


----------



## particlez

Linking mass transit with long distance rail is just common sense. Urban centers located on small islands would be the obvious exception. Someone is bound to come along and complain about the lack of long distance rail in Okinawa, or Oahu, or whatever.

@chorned, several minutes on websearch would reveal info about Jinan West or Xuzhou East.

http://baike.baidu.com/picview/3406...0ed7912397dd8c0a.html#albumindex=0&picindex=0

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/济南轨道交通#R3.E7.BA.BF


They're in the process of being built.


----------



## timeandspace

afaik it is a development and planning policy guideline that all large HSR stations in large cities/areas with metro will (have to be) connected to the underground with their own stations.


----------



## Highest Bridges

*World's 10 Highest Railway and Road Bridges Trip*

I'm excited to announce my 4th annual 2014 High Over China Bridge Trip!

This amazing 3 week trip will be an adventure to visit the World's 10 Highest Railway Bridges. None of these jaw-dropping structures has ever been seen by a foreign railway fan! We will visit the construction sites of all of these spans as well as visits to the world's 10 highest road bridges that are on highways within the same region as the railway lines.

It would be great to have some real railway fans come along on this engineering and photo tour. We will travel along 8 of the world's greatest high speed railway lines nearing completion including Yichang-Chongqing, Guiyang-Kunming, Nanning-Kunming, Guiyang-Kaiyang, Guiyang-Chongqing and Dali-Burma. Check out more of the details at the link below.

http://highestbridges.com/wiki/index.php?title=China_2014_Bridge_Trip


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> "Most" of which stations?
> Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway has 23 stations on main line, including termini.
> 
> Beijing South - 13 platforms, Metro line 4
> Langfang - 2 platforms, no metro
> Tianjin South - 2 platforms, supposedly Metro Line 3
> Cangzhou West - 2 platforms, no metro
> Denzhou East - 3 platforms, no metro
> Jinan West - 8 platforms, no metro
> Taian - 2 platforms, no metro
> Qufu East - 2 platforms, no metro
> Tengzhou East - 2 platforms, no metro
> Zaozhuang - 2 platforms, no metro
> Xuzhou East - 7 platforms, no metro
> Suzhou East - 2 platforms, no metro
> Bengbu South - 5 platforms, no metro
> Dingyuan - 2 platforms, no metro
> Chuzhou - 2 platforms, no metro
> Nanjing South - 15 platforms, Metro line 1
> Zhenjiang South - 2 platforms, no metro
> Danyang North - 2 platforms, no metro
> Changzhou North - 2 platforms, no metro
> Wuxi East - 2 platforms, no metro
> Suzhou North - 2 platforms, supposedly Metro Line 2
> Kunshan South - 2 platforms, no metro
> Shanghai Hongqiao - 16 platforms, Metro Lines 2 and 10
> 5 out of the 23 have metro - 18 out of 23 have not.
> Stations as big as Jinan West, 8 platforms, and Xuzhou East, 7 platforms, have no metro.
> What do Jinan West or Xuzhou East look like?


There are a number of metro lines or BRT lines under construction or in planning.

Wikipedia has a list of some of these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_rail_transit_in_China#Under_construction


----------



## Sunfuns

ramakrishna1984 said:


> China's Beijing-Guangzhou high-speed line, which opened in December 2012, is currently the world's longest high-speed railway line with a total length of 2,298km
> 
> 
> Check the list of Longest High speed Lines in the world and Did you know China Holds Six out of top ten list
> 
> http://www.railway-technology.com/f...lds-longest-high-speed-railway-lines-4149752/


Are those really the longest lines one could draw? I don't know Chinese lines well enough to judge, but in Spain there is a continuous HS line Perpignan-Barcelona-Madrid bypass-Cordoba-Sevilla. Around 1,200 km total and there are a couple of direct Barcelona-Sevilla trains every day.


----------



## flankerjun

Zhengzhou to Xuezhou HSR line


----------



## flankerjun




----------



## flankerjun




----------



## flankerjun

Harbin to Dalian HSR line before Chinese year


----------



## flankerjun

*Hangzhou to Changsha in zhejiang Province*


----------



## FM 2258

*flankerjun* the pictures you posted are amazing!!!! China HSR looks so awesome!


----------



## foxmulder

flankerjun, you are the man. Nice updates..


----------



## Pansori

Great update indeed.

When is the Hangzhou to Changsha opening again?


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> "Most" of which stations?
> 
> Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway has 23 stations on main line, including termini.


The mega-stations in that post with the photos, that's what.

I will explicate:

Most of the terminal stations for new CRH 250+km/hour railway PDL lines have a subway metro built into the station.

For examples see the photos posted in the post referenced of the large stations compared to European stations.

Xian, Guangzhou South, Shenzhen, Wuhan, Zhengzhou, Shanghai, Suzhou, etc. hno:


----------



## China Hand

particlez said:


> Linking mass transit with long distance rail is just common sense. Urban centers located on small islands would be the obvious exception. Someone is bound to come along and complain about the lack of long distance rail in Okinawa, or Oahu, or whatever.


At this date, China has an odd hybrid system.

If you wish to travel cheaply you can. It will take you 18 to 37 hours, it will cost you only 200Yuan but you will be able to get a seat on an old train NNNN moving at 55-72 kms per hour *average* speed. These are the trains from the 'speed up' campaigns of the 1990's.

You can also take local and inter/intra city buses. These travel at 30 to 40 kms per hour *average* speed. Bigger buses between large cities in the day, 93kms/hour avg. Sleeper buses at night are 72 kms/hour *average* speed like the old NNNN trains.

Then you can hop onto a CRH, travel the same distance in 1/6th the time. An 18 hour trip becomes 3 hours. And so on.

You can then disembark and get onto the local Metro and in 35 minutes be in the centre of the city.

Prior to 2008 that trip would have taken you 5 hours. With the CRH/Metro pairing it will take fewer than 90 minutes. Bus or train trips from the North to Guangzhou were 37 hours prior to 2008, now they can be done in 8 or 9 hours.

This results in odd situations where a trip of 975kms consumes 3 hours and 14 minutes but then the final 325 kms of your journey takes another DAY.

So everything is fast, IF you stay on CRH and Metro or Fly.

But the instant you get onto local ground transport, speeds can drop to very low levels.

These speeds were all measured by me on trips I took, using roadside markers, ChinaTrainGuide rail distances, Baidu maps, and a timer.

Do the buses go faster? Well, of course. But due to many factors the *average* speed is very slow.

Driving, private auto driving, *average* speed on the freeways, highways and toll roads is 55-65kms per hour *average* speed. Also for a variety of reasons.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> If you wish to travel cheaply you can. It will take you 18 to 37 hours, it will cost you only 200Yuan but you will be able to get a seat on an old train NNNN moving at 55-72 kms per hour *average* speed. These are the trains from the 'speed up' campaigns of the 1990's.
> 
> Then you can hop onto a CRH, travel the same distance in 1/6th the time. An 18 hour trip becomes 3 hours. And so on.
> 
> Prior to 2008 that trip would have taken you 5 hours. With the CRH/Metro pairing it will take fewer than 90 minutes. Bus or train trips from the North to Guangzhou were 37 hours prior to 2008, now they can be done in 8 or 9 hours.
> 
> This results in odd situations where a trip of 975kms consumes 3 hours and 14 minutes but then the final 325 kms of your journey takes another DAY.


Example times North to Guangzhou:
Harbin-Guangzhou:
K1124 - 51 hours
T238 - 35 hours
Tianjin-Guangzhou:
K1124 - 34 hours
3 T trains: 24 to 26 hours
Beijing-Guangzhou:
K599 - 30 hours
4 T trains: 20:36 (T15) to 21:46 (T13)
4 G trains: 10:01 (G67) to 9:14 (G69). But an express train (7:59) has vanished!
Baotou-Guangzhou - 42 hours (K599)
Taiyuan-Guangzhou:
2 K trains 32-34 hours
G624 - 10:01
Shijiazhuang-Guangzhou:
2 K trains 26 to 30 hours
6 T trains 18:34 to 21:04
6 G trains 7:52 to 8:36
Zhengzhou-Guangzhou:
3 K trains 20:44 to 21:07
11 T trains 14:57 to 17:10
20 G trains, of which 18 take 5:59 to 6:34, and 2 expresses take 5:37 and 5:39
Wuhan-Guangzhou:
1 train K922 takes 18:26, with detour via Ganzhou
the other 15 K trains take 12:11 to 14:36
14 T and 1 Z train take 10:21 to 11:35
2 D trains take 6:15 and 6:17
non-express G trains take 4:02 to 4:56
3 express G trains take 3:39 to 3:41


----------



## China Hand

flankerjun said:


> Zhengzhou to Xuezhou HSR line


This segment is one that will fill the gap from Central China to the Coast.

Now one must get onto NNNN rail if one wants to travel from Urumqi to Xian, from Xian to Shanghai, from ShiJiaZhuang to Shanghai and this leg, from Zhengzhou to XueZhou and SE to Shanghai. 

Going south to Wuhan to transfer makes the trip noncompetitive with flying.


----------



## flankerjun

CRH380D update

Germany guys


----------



## xinxingren

flankerjun said:


>


Great zooming sequence 
Where?


----------



## flankerjun

*Changsha-Kunming HSR line*


----------



## flankerjun

some pictures I taken last year with my cell phone

*Shenyang North railway station*
















*Shenyang raiway station*









*Shijiazhuang railway station*








Hankou railway station


----------



## FM 2258

^^

I just love the extensive use of bridges for the high speed railway system. Fascinated by it. I don't see any downsides for using bridges almost everywhere for high speed railways as long as the country can afford it.


----------



## hhzz

flankerjun said:


> *Changsha-Kunming HSR line*


Typical terrain of Guizhou Province


----------



## Silly_Walks

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> I just love the extensive use of bridges for the high speed railway system. Fascinated by it. I don't see any downsides for using bridges almost everywhere for high speed railways as long as the country can afford it.


I also like it, but if they were to do this in my country, people would be up in arms because they would say it is "polluting the view".


----------



## hhzz

*Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR*

Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR in Gansu Province,Western China.

Left side:The qilian mountains
Righ side:Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR


----------



## flankerjun

*News update*
After 5 years’ debate and consultation,Beijing-Shenyang HSR line will begin to construct the first 3 long tunnels of all the 110 tunnels on Mar 5,and land expropriation will finish before May,construction of the whole line will begin after the labor day.When finished in 2019,time from shenyang to Beijing will be cut into 2.5 hours from 5 hours.Beijing-Shenyang HSR line is a very important main line of the whole HSR network,which should have opened in 2013,but due to enviroment problem,construction has been delayed for almost 5 years.
This line located in the northeast of Hebei province and northwest of Liaoning province,not the usual line along the coast.Because this area already has a 250KM/H Qinhuangdao to Shenyang line.The northeast of Hebei province and northwest of Liaoning now is far behind other areas in the province,They only have a line almost 100 years old,built by JP,with a top speed of 80km/h.This HSR line will be benefit for the devopment of these areas.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> *News update*
> After 5 years’ debate and consultation,Beijing-Shenyang HSR line will begin to construct the first 3 long tunnels of all the 110 tunnels on Mar 5,and land expropriation will finish before May,construction of the whole line will begin after the labor day.When finished in 2019,time from shenyang to Beijing will be cut into 2.5 hours from 5 hours.


That time already is 4.5 hours, on G382.


flankerjun said:


> Beijing-Shenyang HSR line is a very important main line of the whole HSR network,which should have opened in 2013,but due to enviroment problem,construction has been delayed for almost 5 years.
> This line located in the northeast of Hebei province and northwest of Liaoning province,not the usual line along the coast.Because this area already has a 250KM/H Qinhuangdao to Shenyang line.


Was it excempted from Second Slowdown Campaign?
Also, at what top speed shall Beijing-Chengde-Shenyang high speed railway operate in winter 2019/2020?
200 km/h?
250 km/h?
300 km/h?
350 km/h?


flankerjun said:


> The northeast of Hebei province and northwest of Liaoning now is far behind other areas in the province,They only have a line almost 100 years old,built by JP,with a top speed of 80km/h.This HSR line will be benefit for the devopment of these areas.


----------



## Silly_Walks

If people in Beijing were the problem, I never understood why they didn't just start building 90% of the line 5 years ago and figure the last bit into Beijing out later.


----------



## flankerjun

> Was it excempted from Second Slowdown Campaign?
> Also, at what top speed shall Beijing-Chengde-Shenyang high speed railway operate in winter 2019/2020?
> 200 km/h?
> 250 km/h?
> 300 km/h?
> 350 km/h?


It is a purely 350km/h line,the operating speed i think may be 350km/h,these areas are not so cold comparing to Harbin.
China has 5 lines which are extremly busy,and they are the hear of the whole railway net work,they are Beijing-Guangzhou,Beijing-Shanghai,Beijing-Harbin,Xuezhou-Xian,Shanghai-Changsha,so you will find there is a parallel 350km/h line along these line,and they are all built earlier then other lines.
Target of Slowdown Campaign are mainly lines in the west,this line is in the east,one of the 5 bus5 lines,one is the capital of China, the other is the biggest city in northeast,it is a 350km/h line wihout any suspicion.


----------



## hhzz

flankerjun said:


> It is a purely 350km/h line,the operating speed i think may be 350km/h,these areas are not so cold comparing to Harbin.
> China has 5 lines which are extremly busy,and they are the hear of the whole railway net work,they are Beijing-Guangzhou,Beijing-Shanghai,Beijing-Harbin,Xuezhou-Xian,Shanghai-Changsha,so you will find there is a parallel 350km/h line along these line,and they are all built earlier then other lines.
> Target of Slowdown Campaign are mainly lines in the west,this line is in the east,one of the 5 bus5 lines,one is the capital of China, the other is the biggest city in northeast,it is a 350km/h line wihout any suspicion.


350km/h is designed Speed not operating Speed.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Now back to actual present question.
In Spring 2013, Harbin-Shenyang-Dalian high speed railway was sped up from 200 km/h to 300 km/h on 21st of April.
But as of Spring 2013, Harbin-Dalian railway had never been operated over 200 km/h.
As of Spring 2013, Dalian-Yingkou-Harbin high speed railway and Yingkou-Panjin high speed railway both have been operated at 300 km/h, in summer and autumn of 2013.

On which specific day of 2014 shall Dalian-Yingkou-Panjin and Yingkou-Harbin high speed railways be sped up over 200 km/h? Shall it be 21st of April again, or some different day this year?


----------



## flankerjun

chornedsnorkack said:


> What do you claim the time and distance were?


In Dec 2009 when the Guangzhou South is still under construction,the first train of this line from Guangzhou North to Wuhan running １０６９km in *2 hours and 46 mins*. Maybe the real distance is not that one. today the fatest train takes *3 hours and 39 mins*.That time the train has a top speed slightly above 350KM/H, about 355KM/H.Since the new Guangzhou South is finished,the trains spend too much time running from Guangzhou South to the North station.

Today the average speed is much slower than those days.there are 3 main reasom.
the first is that the speed has been limited to 310km/h.not the 355km/h.and when they arrange the timetable,for example,when you can finish the journy with 3 hours,they will write 3 hour and 15 mins in the table,and the drivers will follow the timetable,they will drive slightly above 290KM/H,and coud reach the destination on time.thus when a delay is happened they will drive a little faster at aroud 300+km/H,so you can see the train running at 310 km/h some time.we call this phenomenon that the timetable is too loose.

the second is that now the trains have too many stops,in past the train could pass the capital cities,and it is quite common.todayseldom.And several months ago,a ridulous rule has been send the drivers tha they can not accelerate the train too fast,to reduce the feeling tha pushing the back!!!! so absurd.

the last is that the time wasted in some mega cities in too much.Such as from Guangzhou South to Guangzhou North,from Shenyang north to the real high speed line.this problem has been discussed on this thread about the position of the new railway station.

Some pictures


----------



## flankerjun

Here is video from Chinese website that the train passing the station with a speed of 355km/h,ONLY 11 sec,the train is missing.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzE2OTA5Mjk2.html


----------



## Pansori

flankerjun said:


> In Dec 2009 when the Guangzhou South is still under construction,the first train of this line from Guangzhou North to Wuhan running １０６９km in 2 hours and 46 mins. Maybe the real distance is not that one. today the fatest train takes 3 hours and 39 mins.That time the train has a top speed slightly above 350KM/H, about 355KM/H.Since the new Guangzhou South is finished,the trains spend too much time running from Guangzhou South to the North station.
> 
> Today the average speed is much slower than those days.there are 3 main reasom.
> the first is that the speed has been limited to 310km/h.not the 355km/h.and when they arrange the timetable,for example,when you can finish the journy with 3 hours,they will write 3 hour and 15 mins in the table,and the drivers will follow the timetable,they will drive slightly above 290KM/H,and coud reach the destination on time.thus when a delay is happened they will drive a little faster at aroud 300+km/H,so you can see the train running at 310 km/h some time.we call this phenomenon that the timetable is too loose.
> 
> the second is that now the trains have too many stops,in past the train could pass the capital cities,and it is quite common.todayseldom.And several months ago,a ridulous rule has been send the drivers tha they can not accelerate the train too fast,to reduce the feeling tha pushing the back!!!! so absurd.
> 
> the last is that the time wasted in some mega cities in too much.Such as from Guangzhou South to Guangzhou North,from Shenyang north to the real high speed line.this problem has been discussed on this thread about the position of the new railway station.
> 
> Some pictures


Real distance between Wuhan and Guangzhou North is 922km which means at 2 hours 46 minutes the average speed would have been 333km/h. But did trains actually run between Wuhan and Guangzhou North in 2:46 as scheduled (I.e. NOT some kind if test or trial service) service? Is there any reliable source such as timetable from 2009?


----------



## flankerjun

Pansori said:


> Real distance between Wuhan and Guangzhou North is 922km which means at 2 hours 46 minutes the average speed would have been 333km/h. But did trains actually run between Wuhan and Guangzhou North in 2:46 as scheduled service?


YEP, these train are those with no stop,on Dec 26,2009,the first train leave Guangzhou North staiton at 9:00 and reach Wuhan at 11:46. Those have more stops are slower
TEST run has a top speed 394KM/H


----------



## FM 2258

flankerjun said:


> <snip>


It will be nice to see those type of numbers again. :cheers:


----------



## foxmulder

Pansori said:


> Judging from that speed profile average speed is certainly not 310km/h. Perhaps around 275-280km/h. This is matching with known fastest average speeds between Beijing and Shanghai or Beijing and Guangzhou where fastest services do something in the range of 265-280km/h average.
> 
> At 350km/h max for longer distances with few stops it's realistic to achieve 310-320km/h average. With 380km/h max it could be up to 340-350km/h average at the most. It's virtually impossible to achieve 370km/h average with 380km/h max or 340km/h with 350km/h respectively.


The drops in speed on that plot is due to GPS losing the signal in the tunnels. So average speed is 310km/h. 

Also, even if the drops were stops, this does not change the point I am trying to make. Trains do not slow down drastically in any section of the line and keep the speed around 310km/h. 

Anyhow, it is not that important. When we have non-stop 380km/h trains between Beijing and Shanghai, we will see the speed profile.


----------



## foxmulder

flankerjun said:


>


Amazing picture, thanks for sharing, any chance higher res?


----------



## hmmwv

Pansori said:


> Judging from that speed profile average speed is certainly not 310km/h. Perhaps around 275-280km/h. This is matching with known fastest average speeds between Beijing and Shanghai or Beijing and Guangzhou where fastest services do something in the range of 265-280km/h average.
> 
> At 350km/h max for longer distances with few stops it's realistic to achieve 310-320km/h average. With 380km/h max it could be up to 340-350km/h average at the most. It's virtually impossible to achieve 370km/h average with 380km/h max or 340km/h with 350km/h respectively.


I think your original question was whether the train can *sustain* the declared operating speed, we are not talking about the average speed for the whole trip, which includes stops. Yaohua's speed profile shows that it can, since the train was able to run at 310km/h for more than an hour at a time. When we had non stop 350km/h trains on Shanghai-Nanjing ICL for the most part of the trip the speed was above 340km/h, peaking at 355km/h.


----------



## Pansori

hmmwv said:


> I think your original question was whether the train can *sustain* the declared operating speed, we are not talking about the average speed for the whole trip, which includes stops. Yaohua's speed profile shows that it can, since the train was able to run at 310km/h for more than an hour at a time. When we had non stop 350km/h trains on Shanghai-Nanjing ICL for the most part of the trip the speed was above 340km/h, peaking at 355km/h.


I am well aware that trains in China can sustain 350km/h on any of the 350km/h line but that was not part of my question. My question was whether same applies to 380km/h. 

From Wikipedia on CRH380A


> The CRH380A is designed to operate at a cruise speed of 350 km/h (217 mph) and a maximum of 380 km/h (236 mph) in commercial service


Wikipedia on Jinghu line


> According to Zhang Shuguang, then deputy chief designer of China's high-speed railway network, the *designed continuous operating speed is 350 km/h* (217 mph), with a *maximum speed of up to 380 km/h* (236 mph).


Also


> The average commercial speed from Beijing to Shanghai was planned to be 330 km/h


I don't know exactly what this means but I assume that 350km/h is the continuous sustained speed while 380km/h is a peak speed for limited periods of time and not a continuous sustained speed (or cruise speed).


Yaohua's speed profile shows that currently trains can run continuously at 310km/h which we already know and noone's been questioning that. We are also well aware about the sustainability of 350km/h speeds and that is indeed well documented since as early as 2008. However that has nothing to do with my question about sustained speed of 380km/h which is not documented and some sources (such as ones I quoted) imply that 380km/h is something other than 'continuous operating speed' (read NOT continuous operating speed). The proposed average speed (330km/h) is also indicating that typical max speed would be in the range of 350km/h rather than 380km/h. If a train between Shanghai and Beijing would run at sustained 380km/h maximum speed with no stops the average speed should be somewhere around 350-360km/h.

Therefore all the data that we know points to a reasonable assumption that 380km/h was indeed not intended to be the cruise speed but merely max speed for certain cases such as necessity to catch up with timetable while 350-360km/h would be the typical cruise speed for most of the trip.

I am pretty sure it should be possible to run trains at sustained max speed of 380km/h (or even faster) all the way from Beijing to Shanghai but would that be practical due to wear and tear?


----------



## FM 2258

^^

I have the same exact question. I hear about wear and tear but what exactly is being worn so much at 380km/h vs 300km/h. 

Still waiting on the CRH500 to see the open rails! :cheers:


----------



## Pansori

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> I have the same exact question. I hear about wear and tear but what exactly is being worn so much at 380km/h vs 300km/h.


Wheels perhaps?


----------



## mrmoopt

Pansori said:


> Wheels perhaps?


It's not just that, the overhead lines, rails and panto all need to be checked.


----------



## Pansori

cal_t said:


> It's not just that, the overhead lines, rails and panto all need to be checked.


Yes of course. I forgot about that. Anything that has increased friction due to higher speeds.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Are there any plans for any high speed trains to ever get through Guilin, to connect Changsha and Nanning?


----------



## keber

Pansori said:


> Yes of course. I forgot about that. Anything that has increased friction due to higher speeds.


And this wear and tear is not just 25% (3800 vs 300 km/h) more but much more as wear is rising exponentially with speed not linear. That was proven numerous times in other countries therefore trains still don't run faster than 320 km/h although many lines allow 350 km/h operation or even more.


----------



## sujith85

*Occupancy in HSR*

What is the occupancy percentage of the high speed trains?


----------



## Silly_Walks

chornedsnorkack said:


> Are there any plans for any high speed trains to ever get through Guilin, to connect Changsha and Nanning?


This?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunan–Guangxi_Railway
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...of_China.svg/2000px-Rail_map_of_China.svg.png


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Silly_Walks said:


> This?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunan–Guangxi_Railway
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...of_China.svg/2000px-Rail_map_of_China.svg.png


Railway line exists. Services don´t.
There are 3 daily G trains Changsha-Guilin (G535, G537, G529) - all of which terminate at Guilin and none gets through. There are 8 daily D trains Nanning-Guilin (D8202...8210, D8214, D8252, D8254) all of which terminate at Guilin and none gets through.
So are there any plans for any high speed train to ever get through Guilin?


----------



## hmmwv

Pansori said:


> I am well aware that trains in China can sustain 350km/h on any of the 350km/h line but that was not part of my question. My question was whether same applies to 380km/h.


I think the same applies to 380km/h because before CRH380A existing models (CRH2C, CRH3C) can already run at sustained 350km/h speed. Since they decided to design a whole new train with a 380 designation that implies it should be able to sustain that speed. Now to the second part of your question about whether it's practical or economical to run at that speed, my opinion would be no, the wear and tear plus maintenance cost of both the rolling stock and the tracks will be too much to bear. Remembered CRH380A was developed as a 400km/h CRH400A, but the planners backed down from that goal and artificially lowered the operating speed, the train can sustain that speed, but the railway bureau can't.


----------



## kunming tiger

Any dates on the next round of HSR line openings?


----------



## flankerjun

Today a US diplomat said that high speed train is one of the reasons that he likes working in China,in 2012,it took 4 hours from Wuhan to Zhengzhou,BUT it is less than 2 hours today.
pictures from weibo of US consulate in Wuhan.


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## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> Today a US diplomat said that high speed train is one of the reasons that he likes working in China,in 2012,it took 4 hours from Wuhan to Zhengzhou,BUT it is less than 2 hours today.


Indeed. Some times:
Wuhan-Changsha 1:18 on 6 different G trains; fastest slow train is T15 at 3:12
Wuhan-Guangzhou 3:39 on 2 different G trains; fastest slow train is T15 at 10:21
Wuhan-Shenzhen 4:13 on G79; fastest slow train is Z23 at 12:13
Wuhan-Guilin 5:16 on G529; fastest slow train is T5 at 9:22
Wuhan-Nanchang 2:42 on 2 different D trains; fastest slow train is T127 at 3:32
Wuhan-Hefei 2:11 on G578; fastest slow train is Z124 at 3:08
Wuhan-Nanjing 3:17 on G578; fastest slow train is Z124 at 4:33
Wuhan-Shanghai 4:59 on G578; fastest slow train is Z124 at 7:07
Wuhan-Hangzhou 5:08 on G588; fastest slow train is Z45 at 8:26
Wuhan-Jinan 5:18 on G258; fastest slow train is T180 at 10:51
Wuhan-Zhengzhou 1:45 on 3 different G trains; fastest slow train is T58 at 4:17
Wuhan-Shijiazhuang 3:09 on 2 different G trains; fastest slow train is T58 at 7:40
Wuhan-Beijing 4:19 on G66; fastest slow train is Z4 at 9:48
Wuhan-Taiyuan 5:31 on G622; fastest slow train is K904 at 20:58
Wuhan-Xian 4:00 on G96; fastest slow train is T264 at 11:08
Wuhan-Yichang 1:54 on G587 and 4 different D trains; fastest slow train is Z3 at 2:13

BUT
Wuhan-Chongqing no high speed service - fastest train T57 takes 8:15

Are there any plans to improve matters?


----------



## flankerjun

chornedsnorkack said:


> Indeed. Some times:
> Wuhan-Changsha 1:18 on 6 different G trains; fastest slow train is T15 at 3:12
> Wuhan-Guangzhou 3:39 on 2 different G trains; fastest slow train is T15 at 10:21
> Wuhan-Shenzhen 4:13 on G79; fastest slow train is Z23 at 12:13
> Wuhan-Guilin 5:16 on G529; fastest slow train is T5 at 9:22
> Wuhan-Nanchang 2:42 on 2 different D trains; fastest slow train is T127 at 3:32
> Wuhan-Hefei 2:11 on G578; fastest slow train is Z124 at 3:08
> Wuhan-Nanjing 3:17 on G578; fastest slow train is Z124 at 4:33
> Wuhan-Shanghai 4:59 on G578; fastest slow train is Z124 at 7:07
> Wuhan-Hangzhou 5:08 on G588; fastest slow train is Z45 at 8:26
> Wuhan-Jinan 5:18 on G258; fastest slow train is T180 at 10:51
> Wuhan-Zhengzhou 1:45 on 3 different G trains; fastest slow train is T58 at 4:17
> Wuhan-Shijiazhuang 3:09 on 2 different G trains; fastest slow train is T58 at 7:40
> Wuhan-Beijing 4:19 on G66; fastest slow train is Z4 at 9:48
> Wuhan-Taiyuan 5:31 on G622; fastest slow train is K904 at 20:58
> Wuhan-Xian 4:00 on G96; fastest slow train is T264 at 11:08
> Wuhan-Yichang 1:54 on G587 and 4 different D trains; fastest slow train is Z3 at 2:13
> 
> BUT
> Wuhan-Chongqing no high speed service - fastest train T57 takes 8:15
> 
> Are there any plans to improve matters?


There are no direct line from Wuhan to Chongqing,so the newly built Wuhan-Chongqing line is a 200KM/H line with freight and passenger.Because there are some problem existing in some tunnels,and the maintance is under construction,There will be D trains this summer.


----------



## hhzz

High speed railway has made China become a "small" country,and it's not far away any more between cities and cities.


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## hhzz

*Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR,March 2014*

Qilianshan tunnel 2,the World's highest high-speed railway tunnel,3600~4300m above sea level.
1.








2.








*From Chinanews.com*


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## FM 2258

^^

I love that they went ahead with this very ambitious high speed rail line. 



hhzz said:


> High speed railway has made China become a "small" country,and it's not far away any more between cities and cities.


Could the same be said for air travel before HSR in China? Is HSR much cheaper than flying in China?


----------



## flankerjun

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> I love that they went ahead with this very ambitious high speed rail line.
> 
> 
> 
> Could the same be said for air travel before HSR in China? Is HSR much cheaper than flying in China?


air travel is not so common in China,and most airports in China are located in capital cities.so for most Chinese,shuttle bus,train or car are the most common vehicles.for the distance no more than 1000km, high speed train has an absolutely advantage over other vehicles.like travel between Shanghai and Nanjing or Hangzhou,Beijing to Shenyang,Tianjin or Shijiszhuang and so on.High speed train makes those bus or air company have a quite hard time.

来自我的 HTC One 上的 Tapatalk


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## Pansori

flankerjun said:


> air travel is not so common in China,and most airports in China are located in capital cities.so for most Chinese,shuttle bus,train or car are the most common vehicles.for the distance no more than 1000km, high speed train has an absolutely advantage over other vehicles.like travel between Shanghai and Nanjing or Hangzhou,Beijing to Shenyang,Tianjin or Shijiszhuang and so on.High speed train makes those bus or air company have a quite hard time.
> 
> 来自我的 HTC One 上的 Tapatalk


I am currently planning a HS rail trip around China (Shenzhen-Shanghai-Beijing-Guangzhou) in order to have an extensive first-hand experience of the system including fast (300+ km/h) and slower (200+ km/h) lines. I have previously traveled on D and G trains on some short inter-city distances. I did some research on schedules, speeds, stations, fares and types of trains and even before I even did it is simply mind-boggling how much land travel in China has been transformed over the past few years (even one year ago I could have not done such a trip...). It's without any doubt the biggest passenger transport revolution that has ever happened anywhere. Travel in China is becoming easy peasy including for foreigners who speak no Chinese or have no extensive knowledge of the country or transport system. What has been happening towards this goal over the past few years is absolutely remarkable.


----------



## flankerjun

High speed train in China is cheaper than bus and air.and a another reason is that Chinese people have very great confidence in China railway for the safety.in 2013,China railway has transported 2 billion people with 1 died,when people travel two province,especially neighbour provinced,high speed train is always the first choice.

来自我的 HTC One 上的 Tapatalk


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## flankerjun

recently i find a report in the 1990s that MOR found that short distance line had a significant decline in passenger transport,they had no idea how to solve the problem,but today i think they have find the way,it is the high speed train.But i think raising the speed to 250 and 350,cancel some stop would be more convenient,like the wuhan guangzhou line in 2009,with a average speed above 320km/h

来自我的 HTC One 上的 Tapatalk


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## chornedsnorkack

Does anyone know why Guilin Station is impassable, and when any high speed trains shall get through Guilin?


----------



## Colorica

:cheers:


----------



## big-dog

*Datong-Xi'an HSR scheduled to open by the end of June*

Datong-Xi'an HSR: 859km, top speed 250kmph



flankerjun said:


> *Datong to Xian line also begin.....*


----------



## hhzz

chornedsnorkack said:


> Does anyone know why Guilin Station is impassable, and when any high speed trains shall get through Guilin?


Guilin station is not impassable.Some constructions between Nanning station and Nanning East station have not finished yet,so the CRH380A cannot reach Nanning station.There will be high Speed Trains start From Nanning run on Beijing-Guangzhou HSR via Guilin station in this August.


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## FM 2258

^^

Where will the train branch off of the Beijing-Guangzhou High Speed Railway to Nanning?


----------



## hhzz

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Where will the train branch off of the Beijing-Guangzhou High Speed Railway to Nanning?


Hengyang East station in Hunan Province.


----------



## kunming tiger

The new railway station of Kunming will be put into service by 2016
Kunming's new railway station is located under Longtan Mountain(龙潭山) of Chenggong District, at a distance about 7 kilometers away from Dianchi Lake and around 28 kilometers away from the present Kunming Railway Station.
Its construction was started from November last year, and is estimated to be completed along with the construction of the being-built Yunnan-Guilin Railway by the year of 2016.
The new railway station will be an integrated transport hub gathering railways, metro lines, buses and taxis together. According to Liu, the new railway station will connect with several newly constructed railways, including Yunnan-Guilin High-speed Railway, Shanghai-Kunming High-speed Railway and Kunming-Yuxi Railway, etc. It will also connect with urban Kunming by Metro Line 1, 4 and 9.
After its constuction, all passengers can take inter-city trains and bullet trains there. By then, the new railway station is estimated to receive 4,693 passengers within a year, with 303 pairs of trains and 128,000 passengers passing by per day.
Construction of Yuxi-Mengzi Railway and the mprovement project of Kunming Railway Station will be completed in the year.
Yunnan has 13 railway projects under construction now, which has been invested with 1.509 billion yuan this year so far. The total investment is aimed to be 30 billion yuan in 2014.
According to Liu, Yuxi-Mengzi Railway will be put into service within the year, connecting the present Kunming-Yuxi Railway and Mengzi-Hekou Raiway. At that time, residents can go to Hekou by trains.
Yunnan will see its first bullet train in 2016
Shanghai-Kunming high-speed railway, with a length of 2,066 kilometers, is the first and the only high-speed railway in Yunnan.
The railway passes 6 provincial capitals, namely Kunming, Guiyang, Changsha, Nanchang, Hangzhou and Shanghai.
Its construction was started from September of 2010, and is estimated to be finished in 2016. By then, it will only take 8 hours for passengers to travel through the Kunming-Shanghai railway, which will save 27 hours for passengers to take the present Shanghai-Kunming railway.


----------



## RockAss

hhzz said:


> Guilin station is not impassable.Some constructions between Nanning station and Nanning East station have not finished yet,so the CRH380A cannot reach Nanning station.There will be high Speed Trains start From Nanning run on Beijing-Guangzhou HSR via Guilin station in this August.


So CRH2A Guilin to Nanning and Beihai can pass Nanning East but CRH380A cannot?


----------



## hhzz

RockAss said:


> So CRH2A Guilin to Nanning and Beihai can pass Nanning East but CRH380A cannot?


That's right.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> That's right.


Then why cannot CRH2A pass Guilin to travel Nanning-Changsha?


----------



## FM 2258

^^

I'm confused about this Nanning and Nanning East thing.


----------



## Cosmicbliss

Pansori said:


> I am currently planning a HS rail trip around China (Shenzhen-Shanghai-Beijing-Guangzhou) in order to have an extensive first-hand experience of the system including fast (300+ km/h) and slower (200+ km/h) lines. I have previously traveled on D and G trains on some short inter-city distances. I did some research on schedules, speeds, stations, fares and types of trains and even before I even did it is simply mind-boggling how much land travel in China has been transformed over the past few years (even one year ago I could have not done such a trip...). It's without any doubt the biggest passenger transport revolution that has ever happened anywhere. Travel in China is becoming easy peasy including for foreigners who speak no Chinese or have no extensive knowledge of the country or transport system. What has been happening towards this goal over the past few years is absolutely remarkable.


Countries in Africa, Asia and Latin America can learn from how good connectivity makes a difference from China. :cheers: Especially India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.


----------



## China Hand

kunming tiger said:


> Any dates on the next round of HSR line openings?


Nothing more than what is known. Datong opening up this summer, other lines and intercities opening up this year and next.

The big km count increases will come from the line to Kunming and the one to Urumqi.



flankerjun said:


> High speed train in China is cheaper than bus and air.


Only sometimes. Long distance buses are about 80-95% of the price of a 2nd class CRH ticket. This includes overnight sleeper buses as well as daytime long haul routes between large cities. Air discount fares can sometimes be found that match or are lower than CRH tickets.

Many Chinese think that the long haul buses are too expensive and prefer the slower trains, so having those consumers ride CRH is unlikely as they already think the current options are too pricey.



FM 2258 said:


> I'm confused about this Nanning and Nanning East thing.


Most Chinese cities have multiple major bus stations and train stations. Even cities of 250,000 will have 3 bus stations.

The CRH lines are usually far outside of cities to save on land acquisition costs, so they often have a station far away from the city and other train stations. Beijing South, Xi-an North, Guangzhou North/South, and so on.


----------



## Pansori

Cosmicbliss said:


> Countries in Africa, Asia and Latin America can learn from how good connectivity makes a difference from China. :cheers: Especially India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.


They can but they don't. And dare I say they won't. I wish I was wrong though. This is a showcase of what a difference can be made by a competent and dedicated government which actually wants the country to move forward.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> Only sometimes. Long distance buses are about 80-95% of the price of a 2nd class CRH ticket. This includes overnight sleeper buses as well as daytime long haul routes between large cities.


2nd class G train, or 2nd class D train?


----------



## foxmulder

Pansori said:


> I am currently planning a HS rail trip around China (Shenzhen-Shanghai-Beijing-Guangzhou) in order to have an extensive first-hand experience of the system including fast (300+ km/h) and slower (200+ km/h) lines. I have previously traveled on D and G trains on some short inter-city distances. I did some research on schedules, speeds, stations, fares and types of trains and even before I even did it is simply mind-boggling how much land travel in China has been transformed over the past few years (even one year ago I could have not done such a trip...). It's without any doubt the biggest passenger transport revolution that has ever happened anywhere. Travel in China is becoming easy peasy including for foreigners who speak no Chinese or have no extensive knowledge of the country or transport system. What has been happening towards this goal over the past few years is absolutely remarkable.


Take some pictures and share them


----------



## big-dog

There are rumors that Beijing-Shanghai and Beijing-Guangzhou HSR will raise speed to 330kmph in this year. Let's cross the finger and see.


----------



## China Hand

China Hand said:


> Only sometimes. Long distance buses are about 80-95% of the price of a 2nd class CRH ticket.
> 
> 
> chornedsnorkack said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2nd class G train, or 2nd class D train?
Click to expand...

Cost per km in Yuan, Zhengzhou-Guangzhou or Xian example route:
G-train
2nd Class 0.373
1st Class 0.448

D-train
2nd Class .263
1st Class .337

Long haul day buses are about 80Y per 250kms
.32 to .37 per km

Overnight sleeper buses are .20 to .24 per km.


----------



## Pansori

foxmulder said:


> Take some pictures and share them


Not just pictures but I'm planning to buy a GoPro cam for that purpose too. I'm looking for someone to travel together as well.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> Cost per km in Yuan, Zhengzhou-Guangzhou or Xian example route:


Actual yuan, Zhengzhou-Xian routes:
Zhengzhou East-Xian North 523 km
Zhengzhou-Xian North 505 km
Zhengzhou-Xian 511 km


China Hand said:


> G-train
> 2nd Class 0.373


Zhengzhou-Xian North 229 yuan, Zhengzhou East-Xian North 239 yuan


China Hand said:


> 1st Class 0.448


Zhengzhou-Xian North 369 yuan, Zhengzhou East-Xian North 382 yuan
trip time 2:02 to 2:52


China Hand said:


> D-train
> 2nd Class .263


Zhengzhou-Xian North 154 yuan, Zhengzhou East-Xian North 159 yuan


China Hand said:


> 1st Class .337


Zhengzhou-Xian North 249 yuan, Zhengzhou East-Xian North 259 yuan
trip time 2:50 to 3:21


China Hand said:


> Long haul day buses are about 80Y per 250kms
> .32 to .37 per km
> 
> Overnight sleeper buses are .20 to .24 per km.


What are the actual prices?
On D train, soft sleeper 336 yuan
On T and K trains:
hard seat 72 yuan
hard sleeper 136 yuan
soft sleeper 204 yuan
luxury soft sleeper where offered 372 yuan
trip time 5:54 to 9:04
on number trains
hard seat 63 yuan
hard sleeper 127 yuan
soft sleeper 195 yuan
trip time 6:44 to 6:48
on L27
hard seat 35 yuan
trip time 9:05

Hard sleepers on slow trains are from almost twice the price of hard seat to over twice that price.
Why are overnight sleeper buses actually cheaper than daytime buses?


----------



## flankerjun

*the third CRH380D was found in Guangzhou,this means CRH380D will be put in use soon*


----------



## Cosmicbliss

Are railways in China the cheapest form of travel? In India, railways often keep prices lower than normal to ensure the poorest of the poor can travel by train. How is the situation in Mainland China? Are rail fares subsidized? What is the cheapest Beijing Shanghai ticket?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Cosmicbliss said:


> What is the cheapest Beijing Shanghai ticket?


156 yuan 5 jiao. Hard seat on 1461 (20:14, overnight).


----------



## hhzz

*Shangqiu-Hefei-Hangzhou HSR*

Another new line with 350km/h designed speed,Shangqiu-Hefei-Hangzhou get approved and will begin to be constructed in 2015.It connects Shangqiu city in Central China and Hangzhou in the Eastern,with a total length of 770km,of which 587km are newly built.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> Another new line with 350km/h designed speed,Shangqiu-Hefei-Hangzhou get approved and will begin to be constructed in 2015.It connects Shangqiu city in Central China and Hangzhou in the Eastern,with a total length of 770km,of which 587km are newly built.


How different is the Hefei-Hangzhou section from the existing Hefei-Nanjing and Nanjing-Hangzhou high speed railways?


----------



## hhzz

chornedsnorkack said:


> How different is the Hefei-Hangzhou section from the existing Hefei-Nanjing and Nanjing-Hangzhou high speed railways?


It won't need to pass through Nanjing when you take a high speed train from Hefei to Hangzhou.Besides,Hefei-Nanjing Line designed Speed is only 200km/h.


----------



## kunming tiger

Travelling from Kunming to Mengzi will only take 1 hour in future
By : InKunming | Published: 2014-March-14
[InKunming--New Kunming Construction] Mile(弥勒)-Mengzi(蒙自) Railway is estimated to start construction in the year, according to the Development and Reform Commission of Honghe Hani & Yi Autonomous Prefecture.
After its construction, trains connecting Kunming and Mengzi will run with a speed of 200 kilometers per hour. By then, it will only take 1 hour from Kunming to Mengzi by the new inter-city train.
According to the project plan, the 208-kilometer-long railway will cost an investment of 18 billion Yuan. It will depart from Kunming and end at Mengzi, passing by Shilin(石林), Mile(弥勒), Kaiyuan(开远) along the way.
Click here to view Chinese report.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

kunming tiger said:


> After its construction, trains connecting Kunming and Mengzi will run with a speed of 200 kilometers per hour. By then, it will only take 1 hour from Kunming to Mengzi by the new inter-city train.
> According to the project plan, the 208-kilometer-long railway


How is that possible? At 200 km/h, it is not possible to cover 208 km in 1 hour!


kunming tiger said:


> Click here to view Chinese report.


Click where?


----------



## Sunfuns

flankerjun said:


> *Datong to Xian line also begin.....*


This particular picture illustrates very clearly cultural differences and approach to infrastructure construction between China and the West. It's a spectacular viaduct, but no way an analogous structure would have been approved in Europe. 


On another note, is it likely that aviation industry in China ups its game in the next 5-10 years and gives a more serious competition to HSR for routes longer than 600-700 km?


----------



## worldwide70rm

^^^
I agree in Europe would be impossible to see something of similar considering all the laws existing about environmental assessment...


----------



## flankerjun

Rencently I found that diplomats in China seem to love the HSR very much.this picture is from weibo of Embassy of Sweden


----------



## phoenixboi08

Is there any reason they shouldn't?


----------



## Sopomon

Sunfuns said:


> This particular picture illustrates very clearly cultural differences and approach to infrastructure construction between China and the West. It's a spectacular viaduct, but no way an analogous structure would have been approved in Europe.
> 
> 
> On another note, is it likely that aviation industry in China ups its game in the next 5-10 years and gives a more serious competition to HSR for routes longer than 600-700 km?


European politicians wouldn't allow it for a host of reasons, most of which are based around cultural heritage and 'spoiling the view'. Given that China threw away most of its cultural heritage during the cultural revolution, they can start from the ground up, and create a new kind of national image, a kind of post industrial forest of infrastructure.

The aviation industry can only really improve in China if the PLA cedes control of the nation's airspace. The reason for the horrible domestic on-time record is due to planes queuing to get through narrow greenlit corridors.


----------



## foxmulder

Sunfuns said:


> This particular picture illustrates very clearly cultural differences and approach to infrastructure construction between China and the West. It's a spectacular viaduct, but no way an analogous structure would have been approved in Europe.
> 
> 
> On another note, is it likely that aviation industry in China ups its game in the next 5-10 years and gives a more serious competition to HSR for routes longer than 600-700 km?


Not really... That is the *flood area of the river*, you *have to* build it like that no matter where you are, if you want to have 350km/h train line.


----------



## foxmulder

worldwide70rm said:


> ^^^
> I agree in Europe would be impossible to see something of similar considering all the laws existing about environmental assessment...




2 seconds google search, Spain:










As a side note, I have to say that opposing a high speed rail line due to environmental concerns is mental *especially *if it is on viaducts.


----------



## Sunfuns

Perhaps it was not the best chosen example, but the point is still valid. Most of what is built in China on viaducts in Europe would be built at grade, in a tunnel, in a cutting or not at all.


----------



## Surel

foxmulder said:


> Not really... That is the *flood area of the river*, you *have to* build it like that no matter where you are, if you want to have 350km/h train line.


Yes, and therefore it could face the fate of not being built at all in Europe.


----------



## hmmwv

Sunfuns said:


> Perhaps it was not the best chosen example, but the point is still valid. Most of what is built in China on viaducts in Europe would be built at grade, in a tunnel, in a cutting or not at all.


One of the major reason for China to build in on viaduct is to minimize environmental impact, so it doesn't cut off waterways, migration routes, wetlands, floodplains, etc. The other reason being reducing land acquisition cost.


----------



## Sunfuns

hmmwv said:


> One of the major reason for China to build in on viaduct is to minimize environmental impact, so it doesn't cut off waterways, migration routes, wetlands, floodplains, etc. The other reason being reducing land acquisition cost.


I know that, but what apparently doesn't come into discussion, but would in Europe is the visual impact. For cultural reasons people here prefer that the infrastructure is less "visible"... Sometimes that's not possible, but then it is that is the direction taken.


----------



## foxmulder

Sunfuns said:


> I know that, but what apparently doesn't come into discussion, but would in Europe is the visual impact. For cultural reasons people here prefer that the infrastructure is less "visible"... Sometimes that's not possible, but then it is that is the direction taken.


I find elevated railways extremely pleasing scene. I wish I had them as the view from my windows. 

I don't buy the visual impact reasoning for Europe either, anyway. Europe is full of autobahns etc. Frankly, I think only real reason can be the budget. Anyhow, it is not that important. If Europe does not want to build them for any reason, they shouldn't. But, Chinese building them is not a sign of "distaste" or "environmental neglect".


----------



## Sunfuns

foxmulder said:


> I find elevated railways extremely pleasing scene. I wish I had them as the view from my windows.
> 
> I don't buy the visual impact reasoning for Europe either, anyway. Europe is full of autobahns etc. Frankly, I think only real reason can be the budget. Anyhow, it is not that important. If Europe does not want to build them for any reason, they shouldn't. *But, Chinese building them is not a sign of "distaste" or "environmental neglect".*


I never claimed it is, just made a point about apparent cultural differences. As for analogous structures here I assure you budget is not the main reason.


----------



## Sopomon

> Europe is full of autobahns etc


Just criss-crossing the sky, miles high!

lol.


----------



## particlez

^Troll Failure

Google ANY country + railroad + viaduct. You'll see plenty of relevant results.

Thus when you guys say these viaducts are a product of a cultural desert, or environmental negligence, you're either ignorant or willfully ignorant. 

Why are viaducts built elsewhere? 

Why does the iconic photo of the Shinkansen with the Mt. Fuji backdrop contain a viaduct? 

Why are other railways (worldwide) being upgraded to viaducts now?

The "objective" reasons for viaducts are relatively simple:

-higher density and cross traffic underneath
-a need to avoid crossing accidents
-water or floodplain underneath
-undulating terrain underneath


----------



## foxmulder

Sunfuns said:


> I never claimed it is, just made a point about apparent cultural differences. As for analogous structures here I assure you budget is not the main reason.


I am not sure which Western country you are talking about but all I see budget cuts etc... Last thing they want to spend on is infrastructure. 

And I also know that all countries glorify their engineering achievements. If even one these 350km/h lines were, for example, in England they would be writing Epics about it.


----------



## Sunfuns

foxmulder said:


> I am not sure which Western country you are talking about but all I see budget cuts etc... Last thing they want to spend on is infrastructure.
> 
> And I also know that all countries glorify their engineering achievements. If even one these 350km/h lines were, for example, in England they would be writing Epics about it.


There is a fair bit of infrastructure spending despite constant moaning about lack of money. It's not at Chinese levels, but it doesn't need to be because unlike in China infrastructure was already pretty good 15 years ago. 

Some of the grandest projects currently in construction, recently finished or about to start: Gotthard Base tunnel in Switzerland (longest in the world), Tours-Bordeaux HS line in France (300 km), many HS lines in Spain and Italy, Crossrail project in London, bridge between Sweden and Denmark and Denmark and Germany, Brenner Base tunnel in Austria. Less sexy but still a lot of money being spent on massive rail electrification programs in UK and Denmark, huge autobahn building programs in Eastern Europe (particularly Poland). I bet if you put it all together there are hundreds of billions being spent on various road and rail project across EU and associated countries.


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> How is that possible? At 200 km/h, it is not possible to cover 208 km in 1 hour!
> 
> Click where?


It's likely that speed with be increased and real speeds are greater.

It's very common to ride on a 250kms/h train that is at 256kms/h. Speeds are displayed, usually they are a bit over the stated max velocity.

200 at 208 is within tolerances and I would expect, given the recent trend to increase many lines' speeds 10% or so, that 'A 200km/h CRH line' would actually run at up to 210 to 220.

Average speeds are anything from 82% to 96% of claimed official rated maximum. This depends on the line, before/after early 2011, number of stops, length of the line, "express", and whether the engineer has more or less leeway to exceed a figure.

Source:
First and second class tickets and watching the velocity display on trips across China. Timing the trip, and using official CRH line lengths.


----------



## flankerjun

*Update ：Hangzhou to Nanchang section
*


----------



## flankerjun




----------



## flankerjun

an article about China HSR from foreignpolicy
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/12/high_speed_empire_chinese_trains


----------



## hmmwv

Cosmicbliss said:


> What about the following key concerns:
> 1. Can poor people afford HSR?
> 2. The financial burden of it?


I think that depends on the definition of "poor" people, migrant workers who have jobs in large cities can generally afford the infrequent travels on HSR. The 2-300 million in poverty mostly live in remote villages or western cities that don't have HSR service anyway. During my recent trip to China I find that the trains carry a significant percentage of what appear to be migrant workers or manual labour, to a point that it's no longer a very comfortable ride, thus most people travel on business opt for the first class seating. The guy sitting next to me is from Liuan in Anhui, he works in Shanghai as an appliance repair person, his family are all back in Liuan so every couple of months he travels back via HSR, he doesn't think the RMB 180 or so ticket is a huge issue, he said it used to cost half as much but the journey is so much longer it's completely worth it, because for most migrant workers time off is much harder to come by.

Regarding the financial burden, we cannot simply looking at direct revenue from ticket sales or station storefront leases. As a government infrastructure project the HSR network is also generating economic benefit in cities and towns along the line, boosting business and real estate values. By itself CRC is in the red, but if we counting the overall return I believe it's a firm plus.


----------



## drezdinski

Chinese HSR is one of the cheapest in the world (if not the cheapest), considering the vast infrastructure and network.


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Easily, and in a significant sense. People´s Republic of China does NOT have a free movement of labour.
> 
> It is true that, since 2003, people are not arrested and forcibly returned home (or beaten to death, like Sun Zhigang) for the mere fact of being found outside of their hukou residence. But neither are they legal migrants!
> 
> Legal migrants exist - it is possible to get hukou of a new place. Shenzhen had 300 000 inhabitants in 1979, so probably under 400 000 natives (people who lived in Shenzhen back in 1979, and their descendants), yet 3 million legal residents with Shenzhen hukou. So most Shenzhen citizens, over 2,5 millions, are legal immigrants (or their descendants).
> And yet, only 3 million of the 10 million residents of Shenzhen have Shenzhen hukou. The rest, over 7 millions, are illegal immigrants.
> 
> A person away from the place where he or she has hukou is not entitled to a lot of services! Cannot get unemployment benefits - if he does lose his job and runs out of money then he is sent home by police, though usually not beaten to death - cannot get medical care, cannot educate his children.
> 
> China habitually hunts down and forcibly shuts down private schools founded to educate illegal immigrant children. Which is why large numbers of children are left behind at home with grandparents attending school, while parents go to city for work.
> 
> And that´s a strong incentive to go home as often as possible.
> 
> The legal position of these workers without hukou is in a very significant way that of "illegal immigrant". True, not exactly - like they are not arrested randomly merely for being found. But their ineligibility to social benefits, whether without hukou or by asking and getting the hukou, means that it is important to distinguish them from legal migrants who do get hukou.
> 
> And "illegal immigrant" is in a significant sense applicable to that position.
> 
> Now, back to the implications.
> 
> If migrant workers came as legal migrants, entitled to iron rice bowl, social benefits in case of unemployment, medical care in illness and putting their children to the city schools, then they could more easily settle down in cities where they find employment, and lose contact with their places of origin.
> 
> They are by force of law and public policy prevented from settling in the cities. 18 % of all Chinese are illegal immigrants, whereas the total of bourgeois, including the legal immigrants, is 36 %.
> 
> This policy of forcibly preventing them from settling gives them a big incentive to keep contact with their place of hukou. An incentive which does not apply in other countries that do have free movement of labour and where migrant workers can get the same social benefits in cities as they did or would get back home.


I guess you never heard of temporary resident permit? It's easily obtainable for anyone who can produce a proof of employment in the city. People with hukou are no longer immigrant, they are considered resident. Also keep in mind although those guys have their families back home they still can't travel back frequently because they simply cannot get time off from their employers, or they choose to work instead of travel to earn more money. I don't buy the myth that migrant workers can't afford to travel, a typical waitress in Shanghai earns as much or more money than an entry level college graduated office worker.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> I guess you never heard of temporary resident permit? It's easily obtainable for anyone who can produce a proof of employment in the city.


I´ve heard of it. But what does it give? Is it equal to hukou in case of unemployment, illness or school age children?


hmmwv said:


> People with hukou are no longer immigrant, they are considered resident. Also keep in mind although those guys have their families back home they still can't travel back frequently because they simply cannot get time off from their employers, or they choose to work instead of travel to earn more money.


People with hukou still have their parents and siblings back home, even if their own child does live with them and goes to school in the city.

Checked your neighbour from Liuan, too. The route has 3 K trains per day, trip time 7:12 to 7:59, hard seat 91 yuan. Sleepers are available but none of the 3 travels overnight - they go beyond and that´s overnight, but last train reaches Liuan at 0:29 and Xinyang at 5:15, so no good sleeping to Liuan. By contrast the 19 D trains take 3:22 to 4:28, and cost 178 or 184 yuan second class.

So, even migrant workers can afford the D train price, and the time is worth it. It would make a big difference if people who now get the time and money to go home each 2 months could afford to do so each month, or actually 4 times a month. Because for a weekend... Last train Friday evening, D3046, leaves Shanghai 17:47, after work, and arrives 21:46. First train Saturday morning, D2202, leaves 6:30 and arrives Liuan as early as 9:52. On the way back, D3062 leaves Luan at 18:25 and arrives in Hongqiao 22:32.



hmmwv said:


> The 2-300 million in poverty mostly live in remote villages or western cities that don't have HSR service anyway.


And many migrant workers come from these places. And can only go home twice a year by slow train or bus.

When HSR is opened to these western cities or nearby small towns, these migrant workers can start going home more than twice a year. And some people from these places who did not want to become migrant workers to go home only twice a year can then become migrant workers.


----------



## China Hand

Restless said:


> If we define failure for HSR as operating at a financial loss for their entire lifetime, then we're looking at a number of lines in the UK and Spain.
> 
> If we define failure for HSR as costing more than the overall economic benefit it delivers, again we have a few in the UK and Spain.
> 
> In the case of the UK, construction costs are so high that they can't hope to recoup the initial investment.
> 
> In the case of Spain, they overbuilt and have some lines where there simply isn't enough passenger traffic and economic benefit to recoup the initial investment.
> 
> The new Dutch line looks like a disaster as well.


The lines still have a benefit, but losses must be taken, write-downs must occur, bond holders lose money. There is no such thing as free money - it comes from someone being productive.

Yet, if a country is willing to write off the loss it's good to have HSR rather than not. But convincing people to pay for it is a challenge especially when better alternatives exist such as in The Western Hemisphere.

Spain, especially, has HSR rail and stations To Nowhere after their RRE bubble popped.


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> When HSR is opened to these western cities or nearby small towns, these migrant workers can start going home more than twice a year. And some people from these places who did not want to become migrant workers to go home only twice a year can then become migrant workers.


Chorned they CAN but they WILL NOT. I know these people, I have friends who live in western cities and small towns, I live there, and whilst they like HSR it's just too expensive for them to use. They don't travel much and consider travel a luxury, even with long distance day time buses to nearby big cities.

Just too expensive to the average person.

When I discuss it with them, they like it, but it's out of their reach and so they are indifferent to it because they can't afford the bus to go to Big City now. CRH rail is beyond their budgets.

So those migrant workers who earn 1800 to 3500 a month won't be spending it on returning home more often when the trip costs 500 to 900 one way. That's a very expensive trip to most Chinese, and they would rather not travel and save the money.

Stories are common of the worker who got stuck buying a HSR ticket home and spent too much, they always mention how expensive the ticket price is to them. They would rather save the money, return one per year, use the slow train, consume 3 days in travel time, spend 200 Yuan, than spend 800 Yuan and save 2.5 days travel time.

Chinese also work up to 28 days of 30 a month. There is no 'weekend' in China. Banks are open nearly every day of the year. Sunday is like any other day.

They also do not get time off to travel. National Week and Spring Festival are all the holidays most workers get and with cheap train tickets they can only afford to go once per year and usually choose Spring Festival. The CRH at 5X times the price won't have them returning home.

The middle class and above, on the other hand, appreciate and use the HSR often. Shanghai and the large cities nearby resemble any European city with HSR and multiple hub lines leading into the biggest city. People there use it twice a day.

There have been constant Chinese media articles about the HSR being too expensive, these stories began back in 2008, so the migrant workers won't be using it more than once a year maybe twice when they earn more money.

So in theory, yes. 
In reality, no.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> So those migrant workers who earn 1800 to 3500 a month won't be spending it on returning home more often when the trip costs 500 to 900 one way. That's a very expensive trip to most Chinese, and they would rather not travel and save the money.
> 
> Stories are common of the worker who got stuck buying a HSR ticket home and spent too much, they always mention how expensive the ticket price is to them. They would rather save the money, return one per year, use the slow train, consume 3 days in travel time, spend 200 Yuan, than spend 800 Yuan and save 2.5 days travel time.


Example - Guilin.
If Guilin citizen works in Beijing then a hard seat costs 236 yuan and takes 21 to 27 hours. Second class seat in G529 costs 806 yuan, and takes 10:32. So it makes sense that Guilin citizens in Beijing cannot go home or go home by slow train.
But if a Guilin citizen works in Nanning then hard seats cost 62 yuan 5 jiao to 64 yuan 5 jiao, and take from 5:09 to 5:47. Whereas second class seats in D trains cost 111 yuan, and take 2:39 to 2:51.

So, if the migrant workers in faraway coastal cities cannot afford HSR, the migrant workers in nearby western province capitals might.


China Hand said:


> The middle class and above, on the other hand, appreciate and use the HSR often. Shanghai and the large cities nearby resemble any European city with HSR and multiple hub lines leading into the biggest city. People there use it twice a day.


It is possible only for short distances. And expensive even then. Nanjing-Shanghai can be done in 1:07 one way by the nonstop G trains. But in second class, it is 134 yuan 5 jiao - so 269 yuan each day, and 7532 yuan over the 28 working days of month.


China Hand said:


> so the migrant workers won't be using it more than once a year maybe twice when they earn more money.


But when they earn more money and can start going home for National Day in addition to New Year, it adds a lot of travellers.


----------



## China Hand

Chorned - You are posting based upon research you read online and I am re-telling you the conversation I had with a coworker today, we live in a small city in western China, about the new train and she tells me it's expensive. I mention the bus, she tells me that's expensive also. Her opinion is very common here. 

*Many here think that it is too expensive.*

I know people who worked in the coast or other cities distant and travel home and they do it once a year and they are middle class and can afford the train. Migrant workers are going to take the slow train, 3 days, and save the money - just as they have for years.

You are arguing using abstractions and I am telling you what people in China say and do.

You can continue being argumentative and citing websites and timetables, or you could accept 1st and 2nd hand accounts.


----------



## drezdinski

People will generally complain how everything is expensive. Even if free, it would have been too expensive for some. OK, let's say that HSR in China is relatively costly compared to the average income. True, but for all the infrastructure and service provided by China Rail, it is still quite cheap, and practically free compared to Europe.


----------



## timeandspace

China Hand said:


> Chorned - You are posting based upon research you read online and I am re-telling you the conversation I had with a coworker today, we live in a small city in western China, about the new train and she tells me it's expensive. I mention the bus, she tells me that's expensive also. Her opinion is very common here.
> 
> *Many here think that it is too expensive.*
> 
> I know people who worked in the coast or other cities distant and travel home and they do it once a year and they are middle class and can afford the train. Migrant workers are going to take the slow train, 3 days, and save the money - just as they have for years.
> 
> You are arguing using abstractions and I am telling you what people in China say and do.
> 
> You can continue being argumentative and citing websites and timetables, or you could accept 1st and 2nd hand accounts.



people in china also believe foreign governments shower one with benefits, money and rights abroad or other such misconceptions, so i wouldn't get a socioeconomic quantitative and qualitative analysis of the price impact based solely on informal surveying. 

with a diversified offer, travelers will find the suitable options as you say, unfortunately sometimes speed can be out of reach.


----------



## binhai

Chinese people genuinely believe America + Canada is this wonderful land, and put down China in comparison. It obviously depends on your place in life, but little do they know lol. I guess I'm glad for the inferiority complex because it keeps pushing Chinese to advance further, even if they are in reality doing better than they realize.


----------



## Geography

All this talk about ticket prices is missing one important point: what is the objective of the HSR company? Is it to maximize profit? If not, then what?


----------



## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> It is possible only for short distances. And expensive even then. Nanjing-Shanghai can be done in 1:07 one way by the nonstop G trains. But in second class, it is 134 yuan 5 jiao - so 269 yuan each day, and 7532 yuan over the 28 working days of month.


Actually China Hand is incorrect to state that they work 28 days a month, the vast majority don't, the reason that most places open during the weekend is because they have different shifts. And people rarely commute between Shanghai and Nanjing on a daily basis, for those who do their employer will reimburse the travel expense. The more common HSR commuters are between Shanghai and Kunshan, which cost about RMB17 IIRC.


----------



## Silly_Walks

chornedsnorkack said:


> Easily, and in a significant sense. People´s Republic of China does NOT have a free movement of labour.
> 
> It is true that, since 2003, people are not arrested and forcibly returned home (or beaten to death, like Sun Zhigang) for the mere fact of being found outside of their hukou residence. But neither are they legal migrants!
> 
> Legal migrants exist - it is possible to get hukou of a new place. Shenzhen had 300 000 inhabitants in 1979, so probably under 400 000 natives (people who lived in Shenzhen back in 1979, and their descendants), yet 3 million legal residents with Shenzhen hukou. So most Shenzhen citizens, over 2,5 millions, are legal immigrants (or their descendants).
> And yet, only 3 million of the 10 million residents of Shenzhen have Shenzhen hukou. The rest, over 7 millions, are illegal immigrants.
> 
> A person away from the place where he or she has hukou is not entitled to a lot of services! Cannot get unemployment benefits - if he does lose his job and runs out of money then he is sent home by police, though usually not beaten to death - cannot get medical care, cannot educate his children.
> 
> China habitually hunts down and forcibly shuts down private schools founded to educate illegal immigrant children. Which is why large numbers of children are left behind at home with grandparents attending school, while parents go to city for work.
> 
> And that´s a strong incentive to go home as often as possible.
> 
> The legal position of these workers without hukou is in a very significant way that of "illegal immigrant". True, not exactly - like they are not arrested randomly merely for being found. But their ineligibility to social benefits, whether without hukou or by asking and getting the hukou, means that it is important to distinguish them from legal migrants who do get hukou.
> 
> And "illegal immigrant" is in a significant sense applicable to that position.
> 
> Now, back to the implications.
> 
> If migrant workers came as legal migrants, entitled to iron rice bowl, social benefits in case of unemployment, medical care in illness and putting their children to the city schools, then they could more easily settle down in cities where they find employment, and lose contact with their places of origin.
> 
> They are by force of law and public policy prevented from settling in the cities. 18 % of all Chinese are illegal immigrants, whereas the total of bourgeois, including the legal immigrants, is 36 %.
> 
> This policy of forcibly preventing them from settling gives them a big incentive to keep contact with their place of hukou. An incentive which does not apply in other countries that do have free movement of labour and where migrant workers can get the same social benefits in cities as they did or would get back home.


You are confusing "not the preferred way to migrate" with "illegal". Hukou's are a way to limit the higher social expenses having to be paid to all city dwellers. They allow cities to welcome tons of cheap labor, without requiring the cities to immediately pay the expensive (city standard of living) care that a local hokou would entitle those labor migrants to.


----------



## hhzz

*Beijing-Fuzhou HSR,March 2014*

Constructions in Anhui province.
1.








2.








3.








4.








*From gov.cn*


----------



## China Hand

Silly_Walks said:


> You are confusing "not the preferred way to migrate" with "illegal".


It's illegal and those without papers have few rights.


----------



## China Hand

hmmwv said:


> Actually China Hand is incorrect to state that they work 28 days a month, the vast majority don't, the reason that most places open during the weekend is because they have different shifts.


I have other priorities in life than convincing someone thousands of kms distant of a conversation I had yesterday.

1 - Many work 6 days a week and 13 days of 14 - I speak with them. Friends and acquaintances. These are people in the western cities that we are discussing using the train.

2 - HSR prices are too expensive, the Chinese who live in western small cities tell me this to my face, in person, one this week when I mentioned if they would take the train.

I live in a Chinese western small city surrounded by villages. I don't live in Shanghai, or Europe doing online research on schedules arguing minutae.

This is 1st hand reporting of the attitudes of end consumers.

Continue to argue with me if you must, but I have other things to do.


----------



## Silly_Walks

China Hand said:


> It's illegal and those without papers have few rights.


They have the rights their Hukou gives them, in the place their Hukou is issued. What exactly is illegal?


----------



## particlez

@Surel: I've been (relatively) busy. Thus my responses have been slow. My posts were mostly directed toward the other guy. Equating HSR viaducts with a disregard for aesthetics or the environment is a bad argument for several reasons. 

I cannot agree with your new point. Infrastructure and a consumer society are not a zero sum game. Both economic theory and historical evidence lead to the opposite conclusion. The theory goes like this; infrastructure leads to increased efficiency and higher productive capacity (multiplier effect), whereas simple consumption is the end of the economic chain. Think of all the high-income places in the world. They started from a lower base. Their investment in infrastructure allowed for faster/higher capacity transport of people/goods--Each one of them became wealthier AFTER investing/spending money on infrastructure. Conversely, think of all the places which haven't invested in infrastructure. How many of these places have half-decent living standards? There's a verified causal (via actual history) relationship--infrastructure spending leads to higher living standards.

Now, people may argue that the working class cannot afford HSR. Maybe so at this time. Yet the existing trains are already packed, and living standards are increasing, and have been increasing. But "good" infrastructure always has to plan ahead. A mere 15 years ago, grade separated mass transit in the largest Chinese cities was often seen as an unaffordable, unnecessary folly--does anyone still make that assertion?

The graph pitting present day China infrastructure investment should be pitted against historical statistics of the now-developed nations. When the New Deal was taking place in 1930s America and Marshall Plan Postwar European reconstruction, contemporary critics argued that large scale infrastructure investment was wasteful because the then-poor population could not afford to use it. They had a point too--for a while. The old Soviet Union and its Warsaw Pact satellites undertook a similar program.

There's a much higher need for infrastructure investment in China, as the present system (despite nonstop investment) is nowhere close to satisfying demand. The nations listed in your graph went through a similar stage several decades ago. The technology may have changed, but the underlying economic impetus has not. Germany (and others) went through a similar stage many years ago. 

Now, you could argue that infrastructure investment could be done incorrectly. Infrastructure inevitably becomes outdated, and it can become obsolete (e.g. shipping canals being replaced by railroads, regional airports being replaced by HSR.) But they still provide utility in the meantime. There are very few cases of flat out infrastructure futility. The Charleroi Metro? Pointless to have something so elaborate go through such a small city. Montreal Mirabel Airport? Unused because there was a perfectly good Dorval in a much better location, and Montreal was undergoing political turmoil. Ride a subway in China. Ride a train in China. You'll realize the system is nowhere close to finished.

Getting back to the examples of New Deal America and Marshall Plan European construction, BOTH of these were paid for by PRINTING fiat money. Chicago school/Austrian economists warn that increasing money supply leads to hyperinflation. Yet these cases proved them wrong. Government can also incur debt to finance infrastructure. When you go to New York or Paris or Moscow or Tokyo, do you appreciate the convenience and efficiency of their infrastructure spending, do you think it was worth the effort?


----------



## Sunfuns

Not sure what exactly we are arguing about here. So where are still hundreds of millions of Chinese, particularly in the west, who can't afford HSR. Fine, but there are hundreds of millions of others who can. The system is busy and it would be difficult to argue now that the idea to build it was erroneous.


----------



## Restless

INGBN said:


> Hi folks,
> I am having a project about the HSR in China, and I am looking for (official) statistics for the ridership, distance of both conventional and HSR tracks and passenger-kilometers of the Chinese railway for each year. I tried looking up on the ministry of transport website (using google translate though), to no avail.
> 
> Does anybody here know where to find some or all of the above figures? Or other official statistics like financial performance, environmental benefits, operational efficiency compared to conventional trains? I would deeply appreciate any help.


Official statistics can be found from the UIC below

http://www.uic.org/spip.php?rubrique1449

A World Bank paper on the overall effect of HSR is below

http://www-wds.worldbank.org/extern...d/PDF/667980BRI0P12500Speed0Rail0Final0EN.pdf


----------



## Woonsocket54

Silly_Walks said:


> If I am not mistaken:
> 
> Train drivers do the same thing in Taiwan. It is based on Japanese security precautions, and the idea is that if a driver has to acknowledge signals in this way, there is less risk of the driver missing/ignoring a signal.


These Japanese procedures even made their way to the NYC subway:

http://new.mta.info/news/2013/11/12/subway-conductors-point-way-safety

NYC subway and China HSR agree - safer to point than not to point.


----------



## augst6

INGBN said:


> Hi folks,
> I am having a project about the HSR in China, and I am looking for (official) statistics for the ridership, distance of both conventional and HSR tracks and passenger-kilometers of the Chinese railway for each year. I tried looking up on the ministry of transport website (using google translate though), to no avail.
> 
> Does anybody here know where to find some or all of the above figures? Or other official statistics like financial performance, environmental benefits, operational efficiency compared to conventional trains? I would deeply appreciate any help.


The official data for 2013 is on the web by the Chinese ministry of Railways

http://www.nra.gov.cn/zwzc/xwdt/xwlb/201403/t20140305_5385.htm

Most of the passage is gibberish bragging about the network and how it benefits, but here's the gold:

2013年，全国铁路完成旅客发送量21.06亿人次，其中高铁线发送旅客5.3亿人次，比重超过25%

So 530 million rode the high speed rail, which is "more than 25%" of the total township of railways being 2.106 billion.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk


----------



## big-dog

Shanghai Spring







by 开心包子铺


----------



## Attus

^^
China does not only have great railways but great photographers as well!


----------



## flankerjun

*Railway station ：Loudi station,Loudi and Shaoyang are two cities that are very close in Hunan province,in 2008 -2011,to compete for a station,citizens,government officials of these two cities tried lots of ways,from Internet forum to drum up support from higher officials,finally Loudi wins.*


----------



## augst6

I don't understand. If the technology allows Loudi or Shaoyang, why would they choose Loudi. Shaoyang is a much more historical and famous city (Never heard of Loudi), the economy is much greater by GDP and it has more than twice the population of Loudi...

If only one can exist, couldn't they build one in between the two cities (Maybe closer to Shaoyang) to serve them both like how Beijing Intl Airport serves Tianjin and Langfang too?

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk


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## flankerjun

*In 2009,citizens of Shaoyang step to the street,express their desire for Shanghai-Kunming HSR.
*









*they said we need the Shanghai Kunming HSR,we need to survive*


----------



## flankerjun

*Forgive my ugly characters,to go throug Loudi,the line will be more straight,Shaoyang has more people, but for GDP per capita,Loudi wins,so they want a HSR to improve the communication to other cities,this will be benefit for economy,to make up for the Shaoyang,MOR build a 200KM/H to connet to the Shanghai-Kunming HSR.
This is a typical Chinese politician.*


----------



## augst6

flankerjun said:


> *Forgive my ugly characters,to go throug Loudi,the line will be more straight,Shaoyang has more people, but for GDP per capita,Loudi wins,so they want a HSR to improve the communication to other cities,this will be benefit for economy,to make up for the Shaoyang,MOR build a 200KM/H to connet to the Shanghai-Kunming HSR.
> This is a typical Chinese politician.*


Wow impressive! I see, maybe it'll make Loudi much more favourable for development and eventually grow the city. youre right, for a 350kmh line, keeping a good radius wins. Thanks.

I thought the Shanghai Kunming HSR is due 2014... well... apparently not if it's still planning.

Ps I've always been wondering why the Kunming HSR and Urumqi HSR has to be 350, they are surely going to lose money esp. the Urumqi one. Are they planning to connect them to other countries in the near future? Even if that's the case, I don't see how it's profitable given that people could get from Singapore to Shanghai and Moscow to Beijing by flight much much more faster.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk


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## foxmulder

flankerjun said:


>


Look at this site! It is only one out of possibly more than hundred churning out high speed rail bridges in China.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

augst6 said:


> I thought the Shanghai Kunming HSR is due 2014... well... apparently not if it's still planning.


No. As mentioned, it was planned back in 2008...2011. Then the plans were decided and the railway has been under construction on final route for years.
The whole line was due in 2014, but now it has been delayed. Especially the western part Changsha-Kunming, in mountains, is delayed and cannot open in 2014. The eastern section, Hangzhou-Changsha, is progressing better and is hoped to open later in 2014.


augst6 said:


> Ps I've always been wondering why the Kunming HSR and Urumqi HSR has to be 350, they are surely going to lose money


Hangzhou-Changsha is obvious: it connects Shanghai and Guangzhou, and the existing railways between them, Nanjing-Wuhan and Ningbo-Shenzhen, are only 200 km/h.


augst6 said:


> Even if that's the case, I don't see how it's profitable given that people could get from Singapore to Shanghai and Moscow to Beijing by flight much much more faster.


Beijing-Shenzhen by G train takes 8:33, and costs 936 yuan 5 jiao. Beijing-Shenzhen by plane takes about 2 and a half hours. Is the train profitable?


----------



## Sunfuns

chornedsnorkack said:


> Beijing-Shenzhen by G train takes 8:33, and costs 936 yuan 5 jiao. Beijing-Shenzhen by plane takes about 2 and a half hours. Is the train profitable?


What percentage of passengers take it all the way instead of boarding/departing at one of the intermediate stations? Most likely very small unless the plane costs a lot more.


----------



## China Hand

hmmwv said:


> And believe or not "Chinese who live in western small cities" is not a very representative group of current or potential HSR consumers.


When lines are opening up near small western cities in the poorer provinces, they most definitely ARE potential HSR customers and asking them if they can afford it (they can't) is very pertinent.


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## hhzz

*CRH2 in Guilin*


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## augst6

chornedsnorkack said:


> Hangzhou-Changsha is obvious: it connects Shanghai and Guangzhou, and the existing railways between them, Nanjing-Wuhan and Ningbo-Shenzhen, are only 200 km/h.
> 
> Beijing-Shenzhen by G train takes 8:33, and costs 936 yuan 5 jiao. Beijing-Shenzhen by plane takes about 2 and a half hours. Is the train profitable?


Thanks for the info  However, I meant, once Chinese HSR connects to Europe thru Urumqi, to make maybe Moscow to Beijing in 15 hrs, how does this compare to flight? The same applies to Singapore.

I read somewhere that China is trying to connect London thru HSR, which makes the journey take 2 days, how is it economically viable? 

Even connecting to Urumqi is a bad decision in my opinion, obviously a political decision. Section Urumqi to Lanzhou is so sparsely populated, the money to build 350kmh there could make a lot other improvements elsewhere.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk


----------



## flankerjun

augst6 said:


> Thanks for the info  However, I meant, once Chinese HSR connects to Europe thru Urumqi, to make maybe Moscow to Beijing in 15 hrs, how does this compare to flight? The same applies to Singapore.
> 
> I read somewhere that China is trying to connect London thru HSR, which makes the journey take 2 days, how is it economically viable?
> 
> Even connecting to Urumqi is a bad decision in my opinion, obviously a political decision. Section Urumqi to Lanzhou is so sparsely populated, the money to build 350kmh there could make a lot other improvements elsewhere.
> 
> Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk


the price of 350KM/H and 250KM/H is nearly the same,if you built the line on the land,they will save lots of money,BUT they are most on the viaducts,the price of viaducts are the same for 250KM/H and 350KM/H.Section Urumqi to Lanzhou with the hardware to run at 350KM/H but it has been adjusted to 250KM/H in track ultrahigh.
passenger line does not have too much benefit for economy, freight and passenger line work together will help.the reason why China built so many HSR is because they need to free the old lines to run more freight trains.High speed passenger line is only part of the China railway development.and most foreigners have only seen the HSR.Freight trains are the most important Economic source to suport the Operations of the HSR.In the past decade,the weight of freight has rise from 5500-tons to more than 20,000-tons,last week China run a train with totally 31,600-tons,the power of locomotive now in China,most are 7200KW,in main lines they are 9600KW.and more and more sing line become double-lines,Electrified railway also become more and more.


----------



## kunming tiger

Exactly HSR freight to EU is more viable, faster and cheaper than the sea routes.


----------



## Sunfuns

Faster certainly, cheaper I doubt it. Sea transport has such vast economies of scale that it tends to be cheaper than anything else pretty much anywhere.


----------



## Restless

kunming tiger said:


> Exactly HSR freight to EU is more viable, faster and cheaper than the sea routes.


Rail freight fits a gap between sea freight and air freight for the China-Europe route as:

Rail freight is faster than the sea route, but is more expensive .
Rail freight is slower than air freight, but a lot less expensive.


----------



## INGBN

flankerjun said:


> *China railway Corporation release some data about railway update to 2013.*
> 
> locomotive：20,835, electrical loco:52.1%,Disel loco:47.8%.HX serises :7017
> passenger coach:58,820
> freight coach:688,042
> total railway length:103,144 KM （64,090.7 miles）
> double track lines:48,274 KM (29,996 miles)
> Electrified lines: 55,811 KM (34679.3 miles)
> amount of bullet train: 1308


Hi，I have four questions.

_1. I wonder if you could give me the source of this information?_

As you guys may know, I am writing a cost/benefit analysis about China HSR and would be deeply grateful for any help. 

As Flankerjun wrote above, China now has 1308 bullet trains, but when I compare this to this Rolling_stock wikipedia link, I can only find orders for 1050 sets of trains. 

_2. Do you guys know where I can find how many trains China has now (1308 I assume) and how many they intend to have when the HSR system is largely finished by 2020, and the cost of them?_

_3. Can anyone of you share a copy of China Statistics Yearbook 2013? I found its website, but it seems like one has to buy it in China or so. _


I am also trying to find a good cost-driver (a factor that best explains variation in operating costs) for operating costs (salary, maintenance etc). A reasonable assumption would be two split operating costs into two - salary is driven by number of employees, maintenance by number of trains and all other costs by number of stations (maybe). But I need more detailed information about this, like how many people work at CRH, how many they plan to hire by 2020. 

_4. Where can one find more information about the operating costs? Doesn´t China Railways have a financial report?_

Thanks in advance!


----------



## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> Rearrange the list:
> 
> Where are the 16 railways of Wuhan? I count just 3 (1 opened, 2 planning).


Not all planned intercity rails are on my list. The planned 16 intercity rails around Wuhan are,


Wuhan-Xiangyang-Shiyan
Tianhe Airport-Huangpi
Wuhan-Tianmen
Jingmen-Jingzhou
Tianmen-Jingmen
Yichang-Jingmen
Xianning-Chibi
Yunmeng-Yingcheng
Huangpi-Xinzhou-Huangzhou
Gedian-Jiangxia-Hannan-Hanchuan-Xiaogan
Huangzhou-Luotian-Yingshan-Anqing
Wuhan-Qianjiang
Yichang-Jingzhou-Qianjiang
Xiangyang-Jingmen
Chibi-Yueyang
Jingzhou-Changde



chornedsnorkack said:


> And if Shanghai-Nanning has opened, is it short distance?


it should be Shanghai-Nanjing, a typo.


----------



## flankerjun

INGBN said:


> Hi，I have four questions.
> 
> _1. I wonder if you could give me the source of this information?_
> 
> As you guys may know, I am writing a cost/benefit analysis about China HSR and would be deeply grateful for any help.
> 
> As Flankerjun wrote above, China now has 1308 bullet trains, but when I compare this to this Rolling_stock wikipedia link, I can only find orders for 1050 sets of trains.
> 
> _2. Do you guys know where I can find how many trains China has now (1308 I assume) and how many they intend to have when the HSR system is largely finished by 2020, and the cost of them?_
> 
> _3. Can anyone of you share a copy of China Statistics Yearbook 2013? I found its website, but it seems like one has to buy it in China or so. _
> 
> 
> I am also trying to find a good cost-driver (a factor that best explains variation in operating costs) for operating costs (salary, maintenance etc). A reasonable assumption would be two split operating costs into two - salary is driven by number of employees, maintenance by number of trains and all other costs by number of stations (maybe). But I need more detailed information about this, like how many people work at CRH, how many they plan to hire by 2020.
> 
> _4. Where can one find more information about the operating costs? Doesn´t China Railways have a financial report?_
> 
> Thanks in advance!


I get this information from China railway Corpration,if you can read Chinese,http://www.nra.gov.cn/fwyd/zlzx/hytj/201404/t20140410_5830.htm

Sadly,there are no open Financial Report,I find a detail report but it needs USD4500.
I have to tell you that the information in WIKI is quite out of date.the number i post is updating to 2013,and every single day there are new trains,locos and others put in use.
last year,to meet the demand for the spring festival,Rolling stocks in China produced more than 200 sets of bullet train in 2 months.
there are no "intend" for 2020,to pedict what will happen in China in 2020 is quite stupid,so many experts to predict things in China,they are all wrong,China is a country Changing so fast,we do not know the demand in 2020,so there is no "intend" but it depands on the situation in 2020.


----------



## foxmulder

INGBN said:


> Hi，I have four questions.
> 
> _1. I wonder if you could give me the source of this information?_
> 
> As you guys may know, I am writing a cost/benefit analysis about China HSR and would be deeply grateful for any help.
> 
> As Flankerjun wrote above, China now has 1308 bullet trains, but when I compare this to this Rolling_stock wikipedia link, I can only find orders for 1050 sets of trains.
> 
> _2. Do you guys know where I can find how many trains China has now (1308 I assume) and how many they intend to have when the HSR system is largely finished by 2020, and the cost of them?_
> 
> _3. Can anyone of you share a copy of China Statistics Yearbook 2013? I found its website, but it seems like one has to buy it in China or so. _
> 
> 
> I am also trying to find a good cost-driver (a factor that best explains variation in operating costs) for operating costs (salary, maintenance etc). A reasonable assumption would be two split operating costs into two - salary is driven by number of employees, maintenance by number of trains and all other costs by number of stations (maybe). But I need more detailed information about this, like how many people work at CRH, how many they plan to hire by 2020.
> 
> _4. Where can one find more information about the operating costs? Doesn´t China Railways have a financial report?_
> 
> Thanks in advance!


I don't know about the 2013 one but 2011 and 2012 editions are sold at amazon.


----------



## Restless

foxmulder said:


> I don't know about the 2013 one but 2011 and 2012 editions are sold at amazon.


I remember downloading some excel tables from the NBS yearbooks, but I remember it was a hassle as I had to use Internet Explorer 6. Link to the latest one below

http://www.stats.gov.cn/tjsj/ndsj/2013/indexee.htm


----------



## Restless

INGBN said:


> Hi，I have four questions.
> 
> _1. I wonder if you could give me the source of this information?_
> 
> As you guys may know, I am writing a cost/benefit analysis about China HSR and would be deeply grateful for any help.
> 
> As Flankerjun wrote above, China now has 1308 bullet trains, but when I compare this to this Rolling_stock wikipedia link, I can only find orders for 1050 sets of trains.
> 
> _2. Do you guys know where I can find how many trains China has now (1308 I assume) and how many they intend to have when the HSR system is largely finished by 2020, and the cost of them?_
> 
> _3. Can anyone of you share a copy of China Statistics Yearbook 2013? I found its website, but it seems like one has to buy it in China or so. _
> 
> 
> I am also trying to find a good cost-driver (a factor that best explains variation in operating costs) for operating costs (salary, maintenance etc). A reasonable assumption would be two split operating costs into two - salary is driven by number of employees, maintenance by number of trains and all other costs by number of stations (maybe). But I need more detailed information about this, like how many people work at CRH, how many they plan to hire by 2020.
> 
> _4. Where can one find more information about the operating costs? Doesn´t China Railways have a financial report?_
> 
> Thanks in advance!


There are fairly good cost/revenue/passenger details for the SJ-BJ and BJ-TJ lines, but I haven't seen anything similar for the other lines.

I'd go to John Scales at the World Bank below, as he is probably working on something similar already.

http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/pr...ines-chinas-experience-in-railway-development
http://documents.worldbank.org/cura...il-regional-economics-urban-development-china

But remember that the main cost driver of a railway is the huge upfront investment which results in interest and repayment costs. These dwarf the ongoing operating costs.

And I'd disregard the 2020 date, as the network will still be expanding and adding trains to match growing demand.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> Not all planned intercity rails are on my list. The planned 16 intercity rails around Wuhan are,
> 
> 
> ...
> Wuhan-Tianmen
> Jingmen-Jingzhou
> Tianmen-Jingmen
> Yichang-Jingmen
> ...
> Wuhan-Qianjiang
> Yichang-Jingzhou-Qianjiang


Sounds there are 3 high speed railways Wuhan-Yichang:
Wuhan-Tianmen-Jingmen-Yichang
Wuhan-Qianjiang-Jingzhou-Yichang
the existing Wuhan-Yichang

Is the existing high speed railway Wuhan-Yichang also an Intercity railway?


----------



## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> Sounds there are 3 high speed railways Wuhan-Yichang:
> Wuhan-Tianmen-Jingmen-Yichang
> Wuhan-Qianjiang-Jingzhou-Yichang
> the existing Wuhan-Yichang
> 
> Is the existing high speed railway Wuhan-Yichang also an Intercity railway?


The existing Wuhan-Yichang rail is part of Shanghai-Chongqing HSR. The planned intercity rails between Wuhan-Yichang mainly serve the intermediary cities and provincial areas.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> Not all planned intercity rails are on my list. The planned 16 intercity rails around Wuhan are,
> 
> 
> ...
> Tianhe Airport-Huangpi
> ...
> Huangpi-Xinzhou-Huangzhou
> ...
> Huangzhou-Luotian-Yingshan-Anqing
> ...


And intercity railway Nanjing-Anqing is under construction.

Does it mean that an intercity railway Shanghai-Nanjing-Anqing-Yingshan-Luotian-Huangzhou-Xinzhou-Huangpi-Tianhe airport should be built?


----------



## big-dog

I don't know. Intercity rails are designed to resolve point-to-point traffic issues. It's not necessarily interconnected to each other. So they may or may not be linked together.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

The under construction "intercity" lines are:


Changsha-Zhuzhou-Xiangtan Inter-city Rail (U/C)
Chengdu-Chongqing Inter-city Rail (U/C)
Chengdu-Mianyang-Leshan Inter-city Rail (U/C)
Chongqing-Wanzhou Inter-city Rail (U/C)
Dandong-Dalian Inter-city Rail (U/C)
Dongguan-Huizhou Inter-city Rail (U/C)
Guangzhou-Foshan-Zhaoqing Inter-city Rail (U/C)
Harbin-Qiqihar Inter-city Rail (U/C)
Nanjing-Anqing Inter-city Rail (U/C)
Qingdao-Rongcheng Inter-city Rail (U/C)
Wuhan-Huangshi-Huanggang Inter-city Rail (U/C)
Wuhan-Xiaogan Inter-city Rail (U/C)
Shenyang-Dandong Inter-city Rail (U/C)
Tianjin-Baoding Inter-city Rail (U/C)
Zhengzhou-Jiaozuo Inter-city Rail (U/C)
Zhengzhou-Kaifeng Inter-city Rail (U/C)

Are the opening due dates of these lines known?


----------



## big-dog

^^ Not all of them. Most of them will open this year or next year.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> Per wiki "Inter-city rail services are express passenger train services that cover longer distances than commuter or regional trains."
> 
> Inter-city rails works best in densely populated city clusters. In China almost all inter-city rails are high-speed rails. Due to lack of commuter rails some inter-city lines often serve the purpose of commuter rails with city metros.
> 
> The existing and planning inter-city HSR rails are,


You say "almost all" inter-city rails are high-speed rails. Almost all. Not all.
Are there any inter-city rails which are not high-speed rails?
The list you provide is just inter-city HSR rails, so any slow-speed intercity rails are excluded from the list. Now looking at the existing railways:


Beijing-Tianjin Inter-city Rail (Opened)
Changchun-Jilin Inter-city Rail (Opened)
Chengdu-Dujiangyan Inter-city Rail (Opened)
Guangzhou-Zhuhai Inter-city Rail (Opened)
Liuzhou-Nanning Inter-city Rail (Opened)
Nanchang-Jiujiang Inter-city Rail (Opened)
Nanjing-Hangzhou Inter-city Rail (Opened)
Wuhan-Xianning Inter-city Rail (Opened)
Shanghai-Nanjing Inter-city Rail (Opened)
Shenyang-Fushun Inter-city Rail (Opened)

A quite diverse bunch! Little in common to underlie a common designation as "intercity".
Look at Nanjing-Hangzhou, called "intercity". Yet it is, in fact, a key link of long distance network. Consider the schedule Hangzhou-Jinan! 14 G trains, of which just 2 make the huge detour via Shanghai - the other 12 go direct via Hangzhou-Nanjing railway.
Or take Nanning-Liuzhou. Supposedly an intercity railway. Liuzhou-Guilin is not in your list. Yet there are 10 trains daily Nanning-Liuzhou, and only 1 of them does not go on to Guilin, late in the evening. In what sense is Nanning-Liuzhou intercity and Liuzhou-Guilin not?

Also, where is the supposed Shenyang-Fushun intercity railway? I could find only K and number trains on that line.
By contrast to Nanning-Liuzhou, Zhuhai-Guangzhou looks thoroughly disconnected. Although it terminates at Guangzhou South station, all trains do - not a single train from Zhuhai appears to continue direct to Changsha or Shenzhen.


----------



## gdolniak

chornedsnorkack said:


> You say "almost all" inter-city rails are high-speed rails. Almost all. Not all.
> Are there any inter-city rails which are not high-speed rails?
> The list you provide is just inter-city HSR rails, so any slow-speed intercity rails are excluded from the list. Now looking at the existing railways:
> 
> 
> Beijing-Tianjin Inter-city Rail (Opened)
> Changchun-Jilin Inter-city Rail (Opened)
> Chengdu-Dujiangyan Inter-city Rail (Opened)
> Guangzhou-Zhuhai Inter-city Rail (Opened)
> Liuzhou-Nanning Inter-city Rail (Opened)
> Nanchang-Jiujiang Inter-city Rail (Opened)
> Nanjing-Hangzhou Inter-city Rail (Opened)
> Wuhan-Xianning Inter-city Rail (Opened)
> Shanghai-Nanjing Inter-city Rail (Opened)
> Shenyang-Fushun Inter-city Rail (Opened)
> 
> [...]


One more line: Guangzhou East - Shenzhen. One of the first Inter-city Rails opened in China.


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## chornedsnorkack

gdolniak said:


> One more line: Guangzhou East - Shenzhen. One of the first Inter-city Rails opened in China.


Another very different example:
It is indeed one of the first intercity rails opened in China... in 1911
It has been 200 km/h. Never 200+ km/h... and I understand included in the Second Slowdown Campaign to 160 km/h.

What is the minimum distance for intercity rail, so that shorter rails are regional?


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## hhzz

*Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR,April 23rd,2014*

Constructions in Qinghai province,Western China.
1.








2.








3.








4.








5.








6.








*From chinanews.com*


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## hamstergogogo

Found some rather interesting charts in this article[link fail] comparing the market shares of transportation modes in China. Since the overall traffic volume of Chinese passenger transport is growing, a steady market share of a particular mode indicates its growth is on par with the overall growth rate.




























in short, HSR mostly absorbed the growth potential from conventional rail. overall neither highway nor aviation was affected by HSR, unless we assume that there would have been a drastic decline in conventional rail's market share had HSR not been introduced. 

hmm, tried to add some of my comments regarding the charts but the system keeps telling me to check for forbidden words. wonder what they are actually


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## mad1910

Interesting charts!


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## big-dog

^^ regular railway is the only one being squeezed.


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## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> You say "almost all" inter-city rails are high-speed rails. Almost all. Not all.
> Are there any inter-city rails which are not high-speed rails?
> The list you provide is just inter-city HSR rails, so any slow-speed intercity rails are excluded from the list. Now looking at the existing railways:
> 
> A quite diverse bunch! Little in common to underlie a common designation as "intercity".
> Look at Nanjing-Hangzhou, called "intercity". Yet it is, in fact, a key link of long distance network. Consider the schedule Hangzhou-Jinan! 14 G trains, of which just 2 make the huge detour via Shanghai - the other 12 go direct via Hangzhou-Nanjing railway.
> Or take Nanning-Liuzhou. Supposedly an intercity railway. Liuzhou-Guilin is not in your list. Yet there are 10 trains daily Nanning-Liuzhou, and only 1 of them does not go on to Guilin, late in the evening. In what sense is Nanning-Liuzhou intercity and Liuzhou-Guilin not?
> 
> Also, where is the supposed Shenyang-Fushun intercity railway? I could find only K and number trains on that line.
> By contrast to Nanning-Liuzhou, Zhuhai-Guangzhou looks thoroughly disconnected. Although it terminates at Guangzhou South station, all trains do - not a single train from Zhuhai appears to continue direct to Changsha or Shenzhen.


As for inter-city rail definition, per wiki, "There is no precise definition of inter-city rail; its meaning may vary from country to country. Most broadly, it can include any rail services that are neither short-distance commuter rail trains within one city area, nor slow regional rail trains calling at all stations and covering local journeys only. Most typically, an inter-city train is an express train with limited stops and comfortable carriages to serve long-distance travel." 

In China inter-city rails are mostly built separately from long distance HSRs and designed to serve heavily populated area and resolve point-to-point traffic issue. Inter-city rails are mostly passenger/freight mixed rails while HSRs are passenger only rails.

Even in locally recognized standard of 200kmph some intercity rails are not high speed ones, i.e. Shenyang-Fushun is a 120kmph rail.

Hangzhou-Nanjing inter-city rail was built separately from Beijing-Shanghai HSR, it's not long distance. Of course due to its special geographic convenience a connection rail was built to link it with Beijing-Shanghai HSR, many other routes were added to use this line. But still in the network it doesn't belong to any long distance HSR routes.


----------



## :jax:

The article was presumably How did high-speed rail transform China’s regional transport sector? I found it while looking for a graph of transport in passenger-kilometers. The best of which so far has been this one (but it ends in 2008, the year the other graphs begin).


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## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> As for inter-city rail definition, per wiki, "There is no precise definition of inter-city rail; its meaning may vary from country to country. Most broadly, it can include any rail services that are neither short-distance commuter rail trains within one city area, nor slow regional rail trains calling at all stations and covering local journeys only. Most typically, an inter-city train is an express train with limited stops and comfortable carriages to serve long-distance travel."


But then it is the property of an individual train - not of railway line.
After all, say trains Cangzhou-Tianjin all run on the same Pukou-Tianjin railway line. Train 4446 stops at 4 intermediate stops and also offers only hard seats - by contrast T132 is nonstop and has hard and soft sleeper. So which of the trains is "regional" and which "intercity"? And is the railway line itself "intercity"?



big-dog said:


> Even in locally recognized standard of 200kmph some intercity rails are not high speed ones, i.e. Shenyang-Fushun is a 120kmph rail.


But how is it "intercity"? It is just 65 km. What makes it "intercity", not "commuter" or "regional" line?


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## INGBN

According to China Statistics Yearbook 2013, the p-km (in 100 millions) for railways were:

2009: 7878,9 
2010: 8762,2
2011: 9612,3
2012: 9812,3

For HSR, the respective numbers were:

2009: 162,2
2010: 463,2
2011: 1058,4
2012: 1446,1

I got the excel files here, but don't know how to upload it as a picture.


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## hamstergogogo

yeah, thanks for posting the link(seems my account was forbidden to do so due to newbie status)

this chart clearly shows the "dark age" for Chinese railways in the early 90s; the outdated railways were unable to compete with the buses on the newly built expressways( interestingly I think the situation in India is or will be kinda similar to that). 

I was interested in seeing how the 'generated trips'(trips that would have never happened if HSRs were not built) by HSR grow, but it was hard for the world bank researchers to estimate that in the early years, and it becomes even harder now. I believe there are a lot of such trips, but they are just not significantly obvious to show up in any chart yet.

another thing is the freight capacity(darn, who could have thought f r e e d - u p freight capacity are forbidden words...), an important goal for HSRs. but due to the confounding economic impact on cargo rails, the statistics so far are quite disappointing.



:jax: said:


>


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## hmmwv

The problem with the whole high speed intercity is that now Chinese cities start to call true commuter rail "intercity." The word "intercity/城际" is used to describe lines that are both connecting two cities, as well as connecting the downtown core to satellite towns. For example Nanjing's three commuter rail lines are all called intercity lines but they are pretty much metro company operated commuter rail trains (subway/light rail style, 100km/h).


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## Pansori

Which pretty much sums up that there's no point in looking for clear logic in such definitions. Because there doesn't seem to be any.


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## China Hand

^^


hmmwv said:


> The problem with the whole high speed intercity is that now Chinese cities start to call true commuter rail "intercity." The word "intercity/城际" is used to describe lines that are both connecting two cities, as well as connecting the downtown core to satellite towns. For example Nanjing's three commuter rail lines are all called intercity lines but they are pretty much metro company operated commuter rail trains (subway/light rail style, 100km/h).


Just to add more detail, Shaanxi Province is funding and building an 'Intercity' rail link from Xian south to Ankang and Chongqing Municipality is building an 'Intercity' rail link north to Dazhou along the same right of way adjacent to the G65. With some political wrangling and agreements it would be easy for each to then build up to a mid-way point and connect these two lines.

Both projects are local, not national. But the combined rail line would have the same infrastructure and would effectively be a National Level PDL from Xian to Chongqing.


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## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> But then it is the property of an individual train - not of railway line.
> After all, say trains Cangzhou-Tianjin all run on the same Pukou-Tianjin railway line. Train 4446 stops at 4 intermediate stops and also offers only hard seats - by contrast T132 is nonstop and has hard and soft sleeper. So which of the trains is "regional" and which "intercity"? And is the railway line itself "intercity"?
> 
> But how is it "intercity"? It is just 65 km. What makes it "intercity", not "commuter" or "regional" line?


Inter-city rails are built separately from long distance ones and they don't belong to part of the later. People may call Shenyang-Fuzhun commuter rail but they are two heavily populated cities though they are close in distance.

This is how China's future commuter rail looks like,



flankerjun said:


> *Look at this new train！！
> it can run both at national rail line or metro line in cities.national rail line in China is AC 25KV,the metro line is DC 1.5KV.*


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## China Hand

big-dog said:


> Inter-city rails are built separately from long distance ones and they don't belong to part of the later. People may call Shenyang-Fuzhun commuter rail but they are two heavily populated cities though they are close in distance.
> 
> This is how China's future commuter rail looks like,


^^Some of these 'Intercity Rail' are not commuter rail but instead are local projects that connect cities with PDL level CRH line at 200kph. Similiar to the LIRR in New York, that is just a rail line for commuters on regular rail with full sized trainsets.

Cities in China are very closely spaced. Very.Closely.Spaced.

65kms can easily entail 3 cities in some parts of the country, 2 being much more likely.

65kms is also a long distance to the Chinese. Many people, often a majority, who live in the smaller cities never travel more than 25kms from their home. Ever. Big cities differ, but 30 million live in Shanghai and 1305 million do not...


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## kunming tiger

China Hand said:


> ^^Some of these 'Intercity Rail' are not commuter rail but instead are local projects that connect cities with PDL level CRH line at 200kph. Similiar to the LIRR in New York, that is just a rail line for commuters on regular rail with full sized trainsets.
> 
> Cities in China are very closely spaced. Very.Closely.Spaced.
> 
> 65kms can easily entail 3 cities in some parts of the country, 2 being much more likely.
> 
> 65kms is also a long distance to the Chinese. Many people, often a majority, who live in the smaller cities never travel more than 25kms from their home. Ever. Big cities differ, but 30 million live in Shanghai and 1305 million do not...



Some interesting claims there so lets assume that the majority of people in small cities never travel more than 25 kms in any direction then the function of bus stations, train stations expressways and airports in those cities would be to transport the minority in those cities beyond the 25 km limit. Essentially the same people flying, driving, taking the train or bus. 

In other words the average Chinese wouldn't travel any distance further than he or she could reasonably expected to walk in a single day. Essentially those born in small cities for the most part would never leave them under any circumstances. 

These are presented as claims of fact so they either true or untrue. I don't have any facts to support either side of the argument but I would be interested in hearing from anybody that does. In claims of fact one needs facts surely there must be such a question on the last national census to this effect. It's the only way to canvass the entire population at the same time to gather the evidence to make such a claim.


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## foxmulder

China Hand said:


> ^^Some of these 'Intercity Rail' are not commuter rail but instead are local projects that connect cities with PDL level CRH line at 200kph. Similiar to the LIRR in New York, that is just a rail line for commuters on regular rail with full sized trainsets.
> 
> Cities in China are very closely spaced. Very.Closely.Spaced.
> 
> 65kms can easily entail 3 cities in some parts of the country, 2 being much more likely.
> 
> 65kms is also a long distance to the Chinese. Many people, often a majority, who live in the smaller cities never travel more than 25kms from their home. Ever. Big cities differ, but 30 million live in Shanghai and 1305 million do not...


I fail to grasp your point. Could elaborate on it? Are you trying to say people do not travel in China hence investment in transportation is not good or smt?


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## INGBN

Hi China HSR fans ,
I am almost finished with the cost-benefit analysis, and I would like to share it with those who want to read it. It is based on my interpretation and on my findings. Since much data is limited, and my Chinese is highly limited as well, I have taken some assumptions. It has about 5-6000 words. Note that I am just a university student, not a professional researcher.

Just PM me if you want to read it. If you find something wrong or suggestions to improvements in my report, I would be most delighted to hearing from you.


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## flankerjun

INGBN said:


> Hi China HSR fans ,
> I am almost finished with the cost-benefit analysis, and I would like to share it with those who want to read it. It is based on my interpretation and on my findings. Since much data is limited, and my Chinese is highly limited as well, I have taken some assumptions. It has about 5-6000 words. Note that I am just a university student, not a professional researcher.
> 
> Just PM me if you want to read it. If you find something wrong or suggestions to improvements in my report, I would be most delighted to hearing from you.


Good job！I am looking forward to read it.

来自我的 HTC One 上的 Tapatalk


----------



## flankerjun

INGBN said:


> Hi China HSR fans ,
> I am almost finished with the cost-benefit analysis, and I would like to share it with those who want to read it. It is based on my interpretation and on my findings. Since much data is limited, and my Chinese is highly limited as well, I have taken some assumptions. It has about 5-6000 words. Note that I am just a university student, not a professional researcher.
> 
> Just PM me if you want to read it. If you find something wrong or suggestions to improvements in my report, I would be most delighted to hearing from you.


and I am curious what is your major?why do you do such a report?

来自我的 HTC One 上的 Tapatalk


----------



## Restless

INGBN said:


> Hi China HSR fans ,
> I am almost finished with the cost-benefit analysis, and I would like to share it with those who want to read it. It is based on my interpretation and on my findings. Since much data is limited, and my Chinese is highly limited as well, I have taken some assumptions. It has about 5-6000 words. Note that I am just a university student, not a professional researcher.
> 
> Just PM me if you want to read it. If you find something wrong or suggestions to improvements in my report, I would be most delighted to hearing from you.


If you post a summary of the key assumptions and figures, I'll check it against some of the figures I've got.


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## flankerjun

Wuhan train yard


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## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> Cities in China are very closely spaced. Very.Closely.Spaced.
> 
> 65kms can easily entail 3 cities in some parts of the country, 2 being much more likely.


Um, there are fewer than 700 cities in China. And most Chinese live in big cities. Because there are fewer than 50 prefectures, autonomous prefectures and leagues taken together, and these tend to be in sparsely settled areas so have small population compared to the prefecture level cities.


China Hand said:


> 65kms is also a long distance to the Chinese. Many people, often a majority, who live in the smaller cities never travel more than 25kms from their home. Ever. Big cities differ, but 30 million live in Shanghai and 1305 million do not...


China has about 1500 counties. The most populous county, Renshou County, has 1,57 million people. It spans 2600 square km. Which means it is more than 25 km from centre to border. 

Do people in villages and towns need to go to county town sometimes for official business, or for shopping? Or are government powers and shops widely distributed so that a peasant never needs to leave the township or town neither on government business nor for shopping?


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## INGBN

flankerjun said:


> and I am curious what is your major?why do you do such a report?


My major is economics and business administration. We were given a task to write about an project of your own choice. Then I chose China HSR, because I like HSR and I am excited about how it's developing in China  Even though my major is economics, I have been an engineering buff since I was a child.


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## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> Um, there are fewer than 700 cities in China. And most Chinese live in big cities. Because there are fewer than 50 prefectures, autonomous prefectures and leagues taken together, and these tend to be in sparsely settled areas so have small population compared to the prefecture level cities.


You do not know what you are talking about.

You need to stop reading things online and posting from a position of knowing what you are talking about. You really don't know this subject, and that is the polite version of my assessment.

Most Chinese live in villages, towns and cities that have populations under a few hundred thousand.

When the phrase 'largest migration from rural to city in human history' is written, what you don't know is that when someone moves from their rural village to 'the city' that the move may consist of no more than crossing the street, and at most putting everything into the back of a three-wheeled one-cylinder 'truck' and driving a few kms at most. This consists of staying in the same 'county' as you reference them.

Those 'counties' that you read about on a webpage, all consist of what you would think of as a 'city' and surrounded by a large area of rural farmland dotted by villages, towns and small cities spaced apart by about 1 or 2 kms all across the eastern third of China.

You think everyone is moving a great distance from the countryside into one of the few large cities. They are not.

I do not recommend that any other forum members take Chorneds posts as being informed wrt China. He is clearly not. 

You obvious don't live in China, you clearly read things online and take the position that the information you are reading reflects reality, and your lack of experience in China whilst projecting what a city and county is from your country onto China, reveals that you think you understand.

Stop posting as though you understand this topic.


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## kunming tiger

China Hand said:


> You do not know what you are talking about.
> 
> You need to stop reading things online and posting from a position of knowing what you are talking about. You really don't know this subject, and that is the polite version of my assessment.
> 
> Most Chinese live in villages, towns and cities that have populations under a few hundred thousand.
> 
> When the phrase 'largest migration from rural to city in human history' is written, what you don't know is that when someone moves from their rural village to 'the city' that the move may consist of no more than crossing the street, and at most putting everything into the back of a three-wheeled one-cylinder 'truck' and driving a few kms at most. This consists of staying in the same 'county' as you reference them.
> 
> Those 'counties' that you read about on a webpage, all consist of what you would think of as a 'city' and surrounded by a large area of rural farmland dotted by villages, towns and small cities spaced apart by about 1 or 2 kms all across the eastern third of China.
> 
> You think everyone is moving a great distance from the countryside into one of the few large cities. They are not.
> 
> I do not recommend that any other forum members take Chorneds posts as being informed wrt China. He is clearly not.
> 
> You obvious don't live in China, you clearly read things online and take the position that the information you are reading reflects reality, and your lack of experience in China whilst projecting what a city and county is from your country onto China, reveals that you think you understand.
> 
> Stop posting as though you understand this topic.


 1. The official urbanization rate is 52.5% Urban and that leaves 47.5% Rural that figure is from the China daily.

2. Now define the word "Urban" by Chinese standards.

3. Most Chinese live in villages, towns and small cities aka rural areas ,not according the official stats they don't

4. Where did you get the figure of 700 cities from?

5 There was a national census done in 2010 I assume the figure urbanization rate comes from that in fact right after that census was compiled the government claimed that they urbanization rate had reached 50% in China. 

6. I do agree that unless you live in China one can't easily distinguish between reality and perception. But how is it possible to accurately convey the reality of a situation without being there yourself. 


There is an old Indian parable of a King testing the wisdom of his wise men so he blindfolded each one and led them into a courtyard. In the courtyard there was an elephant and each wise man felt a piece of the elephant in his hand, one took the trunk, the other the tail another a leg and so on. After a time he took each wise man inside and asked each one to describe in detail what the animal looked like in reality. Each one gave a different version of the beast leading to many never ending arguments between them.

The moral of this story is each of us is blinded to some degree by our own ignorance and bais firmly believing their own version of reality sometimes at the exclusion of all others. Just because one version is right doesn't mean all others are wrong. Reality is a large beast nobody could touch all the beast . Each of us takes a small piece by putting smaller pieces together maybe we can understand the whole better.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

kunming tiger said:


> 1. The official urbanization rate is 52.5% Urban and that leaves 47.5% Rural that figure is from the China daily.
> 
> 2. Now define the word "Urban" by Chinese standards.


And that´s a bigger problem. Chinese government may know WHERE people live, but this does not mean that their classification of these places as "urban" or "rural" is what you would agree with.


kunming tiger said:


> 3. Most Chinese live in villages, towns and small cities aka rural areas ,not according the official stats they don't


A large part Chinese who live in towns ALSO live in villages, because large fraction of villages are parts of towns. (The rest of villages of China are parts of townships and of subdistricts).
However, many Chinese who live in towns also live in neighbourhoods instead of villages. 
Notably, Changan in city of Dongguan is the biggest town. As of 2010 census, 664 000 people on less than 98 square km.
Does Changan consist of villages or of neighbourhoods? And would you call Changan a "rural area" just because it is a town and not a subdistrict?


kunming tiger said:


> 4. Where did you get the figure of 700 cities from?


From the approximate number of about 300 prefecture level cities and 400 county level cities.
On closer examination, both had been slightly upwards rounded. The true total, current as of April 2014, is 657:
286 prefecture level cities
365 county level cities
4 municipalities
2 special administrative regions


kunming tiger said:


> The moral of this story is each of us is blinded to some degree by our own ignorance and bais firmly believing their own version of reality sometimes at the exclusion of all others. Just because one version is right doesn't mean all others are wrong. Reality is a large beast nobody could touch all the beast . Each of us takes a small piece by putting smaller pieces together maybe we can understand the whole better.


Agreed!
Now, another example of what "villages" are:
the richest village of China, Huaxi.
It is NOT a city. It is a part of prefecture level city - Suzhou. It also is a part of a county level city - Jiangyin. 

Jiangyin consists of subdistricts and towns. But Huaxi is NOT a town, nor a subdistrict.
It is a part of one of towns in Jiangyin city.
The population of Huaxi village is counted as:
2000 citizens
20 344 "migrant workers"
28 240 "nearby villagers"
Total over 50 000
With population above 50 000, do you feel Huaxi Village is a rural area?
Yet it is a village. NOT a neighbourhood. Nor a town.

What kind of entity is "Great Huaxi"?


----------



## China Hand

kunming tiger said:


> 3. Most Chinese live in villages, towns and small cities aka rural areas, not according the official stats they don't.


The stats lie.

If you live here, then you know that 'counties' in China often have a city at the centre, one that is not referred to as 'a city'. That county may also have several large towns or smaller cities spread about, in addition to the hundred's of villages that are spaced out every 500 - 2500 metres all over China.

You know that these 'towns' are not rural but urban in feel, with local city bus routes, many large public parks, multiple shopping malls, and such.

Villages I would concede as being rural, but a city of 20,000 to 60,000 in the middle of a rural area I would not.

Those villagers are moving the 2 kms into that 'city', even though it is not listed anywhere as being 'a city', but instead listed as a county, county-level city, direct administrative division, district or just an un-labeled part of a prefecture, province or other area.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> The stats lie.


Indeed. They describe certain official classifications, which do not exactly match what you or I want to know.


China Hand said:


> If you live here, then you know that 'counties' in China often have a city at the centre, one that is not referred to as 'a city'. That county may also have several large towns or smaller cities spread about, in addition to the hundred's of villages that are spaced out every 500 - 2500 metres all over China.


Indeed.
China has 623 669 villages (and 80 717 neighbourhoods). Since these belong to 2853 county level divisions (1456 counties, 169 autonomous counties and banners, 369 county level cities, 857 districts), an average of a few hundred villages is reasonable.
Since most of these 600 000 villages are in about 4 million square km of China Proper, a couple of km between villages is reasonable.
These 623 669 "villages" are administrative areas which span territory (xingzhengcun). But administrative division does not necessarily mean that all farmhouses are in one cluster and the rest of the village territory is empty fields. There might be houses scattered around the territory of the village - or clustered in several groups within a single administrative village, which may be called "natural village" (zirancun). Then these... "hamlets" may indeed be even closer to each other than villages, line 500 m.


China Hand said:


> You know that these 'towns' are not rural but urban in feel, with local city bus routes, many large public parks, multiple shopping malls, and such.
> 
> Villages I would concede as being rural, but a city of 20,000 to 60,000 in the middle of a rural area I would not.


And I´d already call a concentrated settlement of 6000 people as something else than rural... whether it is a single populous "village" or several neighbouring villages making up an urban centre between them.

Of course, that I or you would call them urban does not mean Chinese government does.

So one type of urban areas that the government may not acknowledge is local centres... "boroughs" in countryside.
Another might be suburbs? "Villages" in outskirts of bigger cities might in fact function as suburbs already but not be recognized by government as "urban"?

Some official statistics, back from 2011:
City; Peasants, myriads; Total residents, myriads; Peasants, %
Dongguan; 94; 825; 11,4
Shenzhen; 0; 1047; 0
Guangzhou; 202; 1275; 15,8
Foshan; 37; 723; 5,1
Zhuhai; 19; 158; 12
Zhongshan; 38; 314; 12,1
Huizhou; 175; 463; 37,8
Jiangmen; 167; 447; 37,4
Zhaoqing; 227; 395; 57,5

Shanghai; 251; 2347; 10,7
Suzhou; 302; 1052; 28,7
Ningbo; 237; 763; 31,1
Hangzhou; 208; 874; 23,8
Nanjing; 164; 811; 20,2
Wuxi; 178; 643; 27,7 

Total of China: 65656; 134735; 48,7

But something that rings warning bells for me: total lack of peasants in Shenzhen, while 940 000 peasants are found in Shenzhen. It is not just rounding because the 370 000 peasants of Foshan and 190 000 of Zhuhai are duly counted. I admit that Shenzhen may have fewer peasants than Dongguan, but none at all is suspicious.


----------



## big-dog

*4.29 Construction of first Inner Mongolia HSR starts*

Hohhot-Zhangjiakou HSR: 

Length: 286.8km (211.3km in Inner Mongolia, 75.5km in Hebei Province)
Speed: 250kmph
Bridge/Tunnel: 62% of total length
Cost: CNY 29.597 bln
Duration: 4 years

source


----------



## China Hand

Cool. There have been many delays with the Beijing-Zhangjiakou HSR due to neighbourhoods and towns not wanting the HSR through their area. It seems this was just recently settled and thus the location of the Zhangjiakou station is known and can be built to from both ends.


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> But administrative division does not necessarily mean that all farmhouses are in one cluster and the rest of the village territory is empty fields. There might be houses scattered around the territory of the village - or clustered in several groups within a single administrative village, which may be called "natural village" (zirancun).


If you lived here and were not posting only based upon from what you read online, but instead from what you have seen, then you would know exactly what those houses densities were.

A city is a city if you know it when you see it, not from quoting online figures and definitions pulled from a machine translation.


----------



## phoenixboi08

China Hand said:


> The stats lie.


Stats can't "lie," but they _can_ be misinterpreted, which is often the case.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> *4.29 Construction of first Inner Mongolia HSR starts*
> 
> Hohhot-Zhangjiakou HSR:
> 
> Length: 286.8km (211.3km in Inner Mongolia, 75.5km in Hebei Province)
> Speed: 250kmph
> Bridge/Tunnel: 62% of total length
> Cost: CNY 29.597 bln
> Duration: 4 years


Does Zhangjiakou-Hohhot HSR go through Datong like Zhangjiakou-Hohhot LSR does?


----------



## :jax:

big-dog said:


> *4.29 Construction of first Inner Mongolia HSR starts*
> 
> Hohhot-Zhangjiakou HSR:
> 
> Bridge/Tunnel: 62% of total length


Those 62% would mostly be viaducts along the valleys, much like the existing roads, or will the line plough straight through the mountains?


----------



## Galactic

I have again compiled a list of average speeds along HSR lines. Data are from Wikipedia, http://train.huochepiao.com/ and http://chinatrainguide.com/.


Code:


Route                 Length        Fastest train  Time Avg speed
=================================================================
Harbin W–Dalian N        904        G48             3:30      258
Panjin–Yingkou E          89        G8087/G8086     0:27      198
Beijing S–Shanghai H    1303        G1              4:48      271
Bengbu S–Hefei           131        G260/G257       0:38      207
Beijing W–Shijiazhuang   281        G79             1:07      252
Shijiazhuang–Wuhan       838        G79             3:08      267
Wuhan–Guangzhou S        969        G79             3:39      265
Guangzhou S–Shenzhen N   102        G79             0:29      211
Hangzhou E–Ningbo        152        G7505           0:50      182
Ningbo–Wenzhou S         275        G7561           1:39      167
Wenzhou S–Fuzhou S       294        D3107           1:53      156
Fuzhou S–Xiamen N        226        D2283           1:18      174
Xiamen N–Shenzhen N      502        D2301           3:34      141
Qingdao N–Jinan          347        G1248/G1245     2:24      145
Shijiazhuang–Taiyuan     194        D2003           1:18      149
Zhengzhou–Xi’an N        455        G96/G97         1:57      233
Xi’an N–Baoji S          148        G671            1:01      146
Nanjing S–Hefei          166        D3010/D3011     1:01      163
Hefei–Hankou             350        D3090/D3091     2:22      148
Hankou–Yichang E         292        D5821           1:44      168
Yichang E–Lichuan        275        K1096/K1097     2:19      119
Lichuang–Chongqing N     264        D2261           2:27      108
Chongqing N–Suining      167        D5123           1:15      134
Suining–Chengdu          148        D5133           1:01      146
Shanghai H–Hangzhou E    159        G7505           0:45      212
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Tianjin–Qinhuangdao      261        G381            1:11      221
Qinhuangdao–Shenyang N   404        G1204/G1201     2:26      166
Nanning–Beihai           199        D8253           1:39      121
Qinzhou–Fangchenggang N   42        D8251           0:21      120
Maoming E–Zhanjiang W     93        T201            1:11       79
Longyan–Xiamen N         156        D3133/D3132     1:09      136
Xiangtang–Putian         548        D6523           3:24      161
Hengyang E –Guilin*      342        G535            2:27      140
Guilin–Liuzhou*          156        D8201           1:02      151
Nanning–Wuzhou S         328        D8271           2:28      133
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beijing S–Tianjin        115        C2001           0:33      209
Chengdu–Dujiangyan        65        D6107           0:31      126
Shanghai–Nanjing         301        G7002           1:39      182
Nanchang W–Jiujiang      138        D6374           0:54      153
Haikou E–Sanya           284        D7309           1:34      181
Changchun–Jilin          111        G8003           0:40      167
Guangzhou S–Zhuhai       116        D7615           0:59      118
Xiaolan–Xinhui            26        D7701           0:24       65
Nanjing S–Hangzhou E     251        G588/G585       1:14      204
Liuzhou–Nanning          223        D8201           1:34      142
Wuchang–Xianning S        90        C5001           0:46      117

Interestingly, since the previous compilation, travel times have increased considerably on the Shanghai–Nanjing ICL (from 1:19 to 1:39).

I also made a map to illustrate the average speeds. Visuals are not my forte, so it doesn't look pretty!









Will there be faster trains running between Hengyang and Liuzhou or Wuhan and Chongqing in the near future?

EDIT: Although there are no direct high-speed trains between Hengyang and Liuzhou, there are services Hengyang–Guilin and Guilin–Liuzhou. Changed the table and map to reflect that.


----------



## foxmulder

Galactic said:


> I have again compiled a list of average speeds along HSR lines. Data are from Wikipedia, http://train.huochepiao.com/ and http://chinatrainguide.com/.
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Route                 Length        Fastest train  Time Avg speed
> =================================================================
> Harbin W–Dalian N        904        G48             3:30      258
> Panjin–Yingkou E          89        G8087/G8086     0:27      198
> Beijing S–Shanghai H    1303        G1              4:48      271
> Bengbu S–Hefei           131        G260/G257       0:38      207
> Beijing W–Shijiazhuang   281        G79             1:07      252
> Shijiazhuang–Wuhan       838        G79             3:08      267
> Wuhan–Guangzhou S        969        G79             3:39      265
> Guangzhou S–Shenzhen N   102        G79             0:29      211
> Hangzhou E–Ningbo        152        G7505           0:50      182
> Ningbo–Wenzhou S         275        G7561           1:39      167
> Wenzhou S–Fuzhou S       294        D3107           1:53      156
> Fuzhou S–Xiamen N        226        D2283           1:18      174
> Xiamen N–Shenzhen N      502        D2301           3:34      141
> Qingdao N–Jinan          347        G1248/G1245     2:24      145
> Shijiazhuang–Taiyuan     194        D2003           1:18      149
> Zhengzhou–Xi’an N        455        G96/G97         1:57      233
> Xi’an N–Baoji S          148        G671            1:01      146
> Nanjing S–Hefei          166        D3010/D3011     1:01      163
> Hefei–Hankou             350        D3090/D3091     2:22      148
> Hankou–Yichang E         292        D5821           1:44      168
> Yichang E–Lichuan        275        K1096/K1097     2:19      119
> Lichuang–Chongqing N     264        D2261           2:27      108
> Chongqing N–Suining      167        D5123           1:15      134
> Suining–Chengdu          148        D5133           1:01      146
> Shanghai H–Hangzhou E    159        G7505           0:45      212
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Tianjin–Qinhuangdao      261        G381            1:11      221
> Qinhuangdao–Shenyang N   404        G1204/G1201     2:26      166
> Nanning–Beihai           199        D8253           1:39      121
> Qinzhou–Fangchenggang N   42        D8251           0:21      120
> Maoming E–Zhanjiang W     93        T201            1:11       79
> Longyan–Xiamen N         156        D3133/D3132     1:09      136
> Xiangtang–Putian         548        D6523           3:24      161
> Hengyang–Liuzhou         498        T5              5:46       86
> Nanning–Wuzhou S         328        D8271           2:28      133
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Beijing S–Tianjin        115        C2001           0:33      209
> Chengdu–Dujiangyan        65        D6107           0:31      126
> Shanghai–Nanjing         301        G7002           1:39      182
> Nanchang W–Jiujiang      138        D6374           0:54      153
> Haikou E–Sanya           284        D7309           1:34      181
> Changchun–Jilin          111        G8003           0:40      167
> Guangzhou S–Zhuhai       116        D7615           0:59      118
> Xiaolan–Xinhui            26        D7701           0:24       65
> Nanjing S–Hangzhou E     251        G588/G585       1:14      204
> Liuzhou–Nanning          223        D8201           1:34      142
> Wuchang–Xianning S        90        C5001           0:46      117
> 
> Interestingly, since the previous compilation, travel times have increased considerably on the Shanghai–Nanjing ICL (from 1:19 to 1:39).
> 
> I also made a map to illustrate the average speeds. Visuals are not my forte, so it doesn't look pretty!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will there be faster trains running between Hengyang and Liuzhou or Wuhan and Chongqing in the near future?


I love this, great job!


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Galactic said:


> I have again compiled a list of average speeds along HSR lines.


Thanks for good job... though I would not waste page area and data volume to quote all pictures only to praise them!

Trying to put in some my work, too:



Galactic said:


> Data are from Wikipedia, http://train.huochepiao.com/ and http://chinatrainguide.com/.


I am using http://travelchinaguide.com/ instead.




Code:


Origin             HSR Length       Fastest train  Time  2nd class price 
=================================================================
Wuzhou         328        D8278             2:28              96  
Tengxian        303        D8278             2:13             89
Pingnan          244        D8278             1:48            71,5
Guiping           209        D8278             1:30            61,5
Guigang          151        D8278             1:04            44

The stations between Wuzhou and Guigang are not on any low speed railway. Guigang has LSR, 174 km to Nanning, fastest slow reain 2:15. Hard seat price 28 yuan 5 jiao, so HSR is only costs extra 15 yuan 5 jiao and saves at least over a hour and over half the travel time. From Wuzhou, the LSR is 442 km long, fastest train (T289) takes 6:11 and costs 63 yuan 5 jiao. So HSR halves the trip time at only about 50 % higher price, and often LSR does not exist in the first place.

Teng is a county, in Wuzhou city, 930 000 people in 3943 square km. 15 towns and 1 township, of which Tengzhou is county town.
Pingnan is a county in Guigang, area 1502 square km, population 350 000.
Guiping is a county level city in Guigang city. Area 4074 square km, population 1 700 000. Despite being a city, contains no subdistricts, only 21 towns and 5 townships, of which Mule town is a seat of... what?
Guigang is a prefecture level city. Area 10 595 square km, population 4,4 millions. Contains Pingnan county, Guiping county level city and 3 districts (Gangbei, Gangnan and Qintang).

PS: the code does not appear to work for me - cannot see what actually made the table align properly.


----------



## RockAss

Galactic said:


> I have again compiled a list of average speeds along HSR lines. ...


Excellent,, Have you tried to list ALL crh services (end to end), if so, there is direct service from Guilin to Beihai - D8253 - 4h44m
I hope one day to make a map of direct crh services, to make it easy to see from where to where we can take crh train without changing


----------



## Galactic

RockAss said:


> Excellent,, Have you tried to list ALL crh services (end to end), if so, there is direct service from Guilin to Beihai - D8253 - 4h44m
> I hope one day to make a map of direct crh services, to make it easy to see from where to where we can take crh train without changing


Rather than making a list of services, my goal was more line-oriented; that is, to illustrate how the different railways are exploited. There are lines where operating speeds are something other than what the maximum speed would suggest: maximum speeds for Suining–Chengdu and Maoming–Zhanjiang are both 200 km/h, but the actual service is very different.

Your example did make me realize that my approach of using only the endpoints of railway( project)s can be misleading, as there is a section of the Hengyang–Liuzhou railway with faster train service.



chornedsnorkack said:


> PS: the code does not appear to work for me - cannot see what actually made the table align properly.


I didn't do anything fancy, I just used spaces to create fixed-width columns (different amounts of spaces after words of different lengths).


----------



## chornedsnorkack

The nominal division of the line is, for some reason, at Liuzhou; actually no high speed trains get through Guilin for some reason.



Code:


Route                 Length        Fastest train  Time Avg speed
=================================================================
Hengyang–Liuzhou         498        T5              5:46       86
Liuzhou–Nanning          223        D8201           1:34      142
...
Hengyang-Guilin           342       G535             2:27      140
Guilin-Nanning              379       D8255           2:39      143

On one to one basis, seeing which lines link:



Code:


Route                 Length        Fastest train  Time Avg speed
=================================================================
Harbin W–Dalian N        904        G48             3:30      258
Panjin–Yingkou E          89        G8087/G8086     0:27      198
Qinhuangdao–Shenyang N   404        G1204/G1201     2:26      166
Changchun–Jilin          111        G8003           0:40      167
...
Panjin-Dalian N           295       G391              1:26      206
Harbin W-Qinhuangdao 943      G382               4:50      195
Harbin W-Jilin              351     G406                1:49      193
Dalian N-Jilin               804     G8011               3:57      204
Dalian N-Qinhuangdao   575    G389                 3:08      184
Qinhuangdao-Jilin         826    G383                 4:46      173

The problem is that columns that align in edit box do not align when posted.


----------



## Galactic

chornedsnorkack said:


> The nominal division of the line is, for some reason, at Liuzhou; actually no high speed trains get through Guilin for some reason.


Thanks, I edited my post to show that there actually is high-speed service between Hengyang and Liuzhou, just not direct.



chornedsnorkack said:


> On one to one basis, seeing which lines link:


Those examples are the opposite: instead of splitting a line, you've combined them. If you take a train that runs on both 250 km/h and 300 km/h lines, it's likely to have a higher average speed than one that only runs on 250 km/h lines. Also, on a longer route there is proportionately less time spent running at a lower speed.



chornedsnorkack said:


> The problem is that columns that align in edit box do not align when posted.


The edit box has a regular font, while the code is formatted with a fixed-width one. Your best bet is to do the editing in a text editor using a fixed-width font and then paste it to the message editor. You can also use a spreadsheet program and export the table to a fixed-width file.


----------



## hmmwv

Galactic said:


> Interestingly, since the previous compilation, travel times have increased considerably on the Shanghai–Nanjing ICL (from 1:19 to 1:39).


Interesting, when I rode it the last time (Feb 2014) it was still 1:19. Did they add a stop or something?


----------



## flankerjun

hmmwv said:


> Interesting, when I rode it the last time (Feb 2014) it was still 1:19. Did they add a stop or something?


yes,they add more stops.but the shortest time from Nanjing to shanghai is 1h14m


----------



## Galactic

flankerjun said:


> yes,they add more stops.but the shortest time from Nanjing to shanghai is 1h14m


Yes, but I was referring to trains that run on the intercity line. 1:14 is on the Beijing–Shanghai line, right?


----------



## flankerjun

*some news*
New 380KM/H bullet train for cold weather from CSR will come out few months later,now only CNR have this kind of trains.there are also bullet trains with new Permanent magnet motors,they can save more engergy,trains that made with Chinese standard,such as unified Interior,same Cockpit and Operating method,if a driver can drive a kind of trains in China then they can drive any other trains in China.and new trains for Exporting.


----------



## flankerjun

Beijing-Shenyang high speed rail,350KM/H,the construction of tunnel,this tunnel is 8888m,the longest on this line.


----------



## foxmulder

That's lots of 8s


----------



## Pansori

foxmulder said:


> That's lots of 8s


I wonder if engineers of the tunnel adjusted the length a bit?


----------



## flankerjun

someone has post the list of project in 2014 in Chinese forum,nearly 200 projects,investment is 505056260000 yuan,about 80,960,518,478 USD.


----------



## phoenixboi08

flankerjun said:


> someone has post the list of project in 2014 in Chinese forum,nearly 200 projects,investment is 505056260000 yuan,about 80,960,518,478 USD.


Interesting.
All expenditures made in 2014, or were some of them projects that were begun in previous years?


----------



## flankerjun

phoenixboi08 said:


> Interesting.
> All expenditures made in 2014, or were some of them projects that were begun in previous years?


this is the investment for the whole 2014,including all the projects,the new,and that were begun in previous years.including all kind of construction,hsr,heavy freight lines,electrified old lines,single track to double track,xian，Harbin old Station renovation,hub renovation.and more.....


----------



## foxmulder

flankerjun said:


> someone has post the list of project in 2014 in Chinese forum,nearly 200 projects,investment is 505056260000 yuan,about 80,960,518,478 USD.


Couple more years like this and China will have the best rail infrastructure on Earth.


----------



## flankerjun

foxmulder said:


> Couple more years like this and China will have the best rail infrastructure on Earth.


hope this,but still quite a hard job,some construction are a little conservative,especially in freight area,in US,the trains more than 20,000tons are everywhere,but in west and southern China,a 7200kw loco can only pull ,5000tons.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

If I recall correctly, "8" is considered a lucky number in Chinese, so your probably right.


----------



## Cosmicbliss

foxmulder said:


> Couple more years like this and China will have the best rail infrastructure on Earth.


Yes and no. HSR yes. But even now, China on a per km area basis, has less railway network than India. So still a way to go. :cheers:


----------



## phoenixboi08

flankerjun said:


> this is the investment for the whole 2014,including all the projects,the new,and that were begun in previous years.including all kind of construction,hsr,heavy freight lines,electrified old lines,single track to double track,xian，Harbin old Station renovation,hub renovation.and more.....


Are appropriations made on an annual basis (I imagine it's a longer term budget)?


----------



## flankerjun

phoenixboi08 said:


> Are appropriations made on an annual basis (I imagine it's a longer term budget)?


yes,the budge is only for 2014,the investment for national railway is about 600 billion yuan（100 billion USD） every year.


----------



## flankerjun

Cosmicbliss said:


> Yes and no. HSR yes. But even now, China on a per km area basis, has less railway network than India. So still a way to go. :cheers:












this is very interesting line that 94% of Chinese people live on the east of this line,and also the railway,so actually the railway is quite concentrated in the populous area,and the hard job for China,is not the density but the upgrading work,they have lots of work to replace the old locos,upgrade the old line.


----------



## big-dog

May 23
*Wuhan-Huangshi, Wuhan-Huanggang Inter-city Rails start trial operation*

Wuhan-Huangshi Intercity: 96.78km, 9 stations, 250kmph (yellow in map)
Wuhan-Huanggang Intercity: 35.99km, 7 stations, 200kmph (orange in map)

The two intercity rails will officially open on June 9th.





source


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> May 23
> *Wuhan-Huangshi, Wuhan-Huanggang Inter-city Rails start trial operation*
> 
> Wuhan-Huangshi Intercity: 96.78km, 9 stations, 250kmph (yellow in map)


How long is the Wuhan circle HSR line?
Does that 96,78 km length also count all three sides of the triangle where the Huangshi line branches off from the circle line?


----------



## big-dog

^^ The triangle line has not completed. Wuchang, Hankou and other stations in the triangle have not been ready yet so they will not open in June. 

Now Wuhan station is the only starting point of the two lines.


----------



## dimlys1994

What section of Wuhuang Intercity is not opened yet?


----------



## big-dog

^^ The yellow/orange loop in above map.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> May 23
> *Wuhan-Huangshi, Wuhan-Huanggang Inter-city Rails start trial operation*
> 
> Wuhan-Huangshi Intercity: 96.78km, 9 stations, 250kmph (yellow in map)


That 9 matches the count on the map:

Wuhan
hieroglyphs
hieroglyphs
hieroglyphs
Ezhou
Ezhou East
hieroglyphs
Huangshi North
Daye North
Do these 4 stations in hieroglyphs only have any name that could be rendered in pinyin?


----------



## Attus

big-dog said:


> Wuhan-Huanggang Intercity: 35.99km, 7 stations, 200kmph (orange in map)


Well, 36km, 7 stations, it means an average station distance of 6km. In Europe such a line could be called as commuter railway. 
Can the trains in such a short distance reach their top speed?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

mavis_dark said:


> Yes, but look at the map. Japan's geography is very different and challenging.
> And most of the countries you mentioned are geographically bigger than Japan.


Most are, but Italy is not.


----------



## foxmulder

mavis_dark said:


> I wasn't comparing, just explaining that he misunderstood what he was responding to.
> No one was comparing actually, so you are the one being absurd here.


I wasn't even talking to you.

Saying "Yes, but China also has less railways on area basis than Japan." has given comparison meaning in it. And, yeah, it is absurd.

Funny thing is, in your next post you responded a similar comparison. lol


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China is also almost as big as Europe, and more populous.
What do you think WOULD be a proper comparison?


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

Take Europe and double it.

Europe pop 700 mil

China pop 1400 mil


----------



## hkskyline

*China shrugs off security concerns on new link to restless west*
3 June 2014

TURPAN China (Reuters) - China showed off its first high-speed rail link to the restive far western region of Xinjiang on Tuesday, promising that it could guarantee the security of an important economic project despite a recent serious escalation in violence.

Officials are still testing the line, which will run from the central western city of Lanzhou to Xinjiang's capital Urumqi, drastically reducing travel times to the energy-rich region located strategically on the borders of Central Asia.

If tests go to plan, Xinjiang's first high-speed rail could be open to passengers within a year, officials told reporters on a government-organized tour of the train.

Li Suping, the Urumqi Railway public security bureau vice chief, said that ensuring security over the line was a challenge police could handle, even as the government says it faces a growing threat from Islamist militants.

"We have confidence and the ability to guarantee the security of our lines and the security of our passengers. We adopted measures at stations and on the lines. We believe these measures are effective and are suited to the reality facing us," Li told reporters as the train cut through rugged, high-wind desert terrain east of Urumqi on the way to the oasis city of Turpan.

Xinjiang has been beset by violence for years, which has pitted members of the Muslim Uighur people who call Xinjiang home against the Han Chinese who make up the majority of China's population.

Many Uighurs, who speak a Turkic-language, chafe at Chinese government controls on their culture and religion and complain at being left out of Xinjiang's development, though Beijing says they are granted wide-ranging freedoms and that it is generous in supporting the region's minority peoples.

Last month, five suicide bombers hit an Urumqi market, killing 39 people in the deadliest attack ever in Xinjiang. A few weeks earlier, a bomb went off at an Urumqi railway station, killing one person and wounding 79.

As well as massively stepping up security, China has been pouring money into Xinjiang's development in an implicit recognition of the economic causes of some of the unrest, and the new rail line is part of that strategy.

Vice Xinjiang governor Aierken Tuniyazi said the rail link would reduce the current 40-hour train ride from Beijing by more than 10 hours.

"The construction and operation of this rail line will greatly ... benefit the further opening of the west and will provide a firm foundation for the establishment of the Silk Road economic belt," he said, referring to Beijing's plans to better integrate development with Central Asia.

However, he avoided a question about whether the new train would only speed the arrival of Han migrants into Xinjiang, another cause of Uighur discontent.

Portions of the 710-km Xinjiang stretch of the track run through wide-open and easily accessible grazing lands or desert, making protection of the line a daunting challenge for authorities that have struggled to get a handle on the spate of attacks over the past year or more.

"It's a challenge for us, but we feel that through our effective measures we can absolutely handle and respond to these challenges," security official Li said.

All trains have armed personnel on board, the numbers - often two or three - depending on the length of the line and the number of passengers, he added.

Li said there would be no delay in opening the line due to security concerns.

"Once construction is complete ... on the security aspect, there is no problem," he added. "If there was any impact (from the recent attacks), it's that we are now even more cautious."


----------



## hhzz

*Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR,June 3rd,2014*

Test run began in Xinjiang section.
1.








2.








3.








4.








5.








6.








7.








8.








9.









*From chinanews.com*


----------



## flankerjun

The first uighur Crew and the first uighur bullet train driver


----------



## hhzz

*Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR,June 3rd,2014*

There's about 462 kilometers of route is installed with the windbreak facilities to protect the trains in the strong wind regions.
1.








2.








3.








4.









*From cnr.cn*


----------



## RockAss

I thought the line was designed for 300-350 km/h speed, so why they use CRH2 trains, having in mind that line is not connected to the rest of the network it means they shipped those trains there and planing to use them for regular services, or are they going to run them on conventional lines down east of Lanzhou?


----------



## foxmulder

chornedsnorkack said:


> China is also almost as big as Europe, and more populous.
> What do you think WOULD be a proper comparison?


The least that can be done is pointing out that half of the China is basically empty whereas Europe is fairly populated in all of its area. 

It is not an easy thing to do comparison of the whole system based on a single variable. For example in case of rail length, two cities can be connected by regular rail or high speed rail. High speed rail obvious advantages we all know compared to regular one, chiefly higher speed and as a consequences higher capacity. Electrification of the lines can be another example. Weight/load capacity of the lines another, other built standards such as vertical and horizontal curve radius etc...

The point is, you cannot say China has double the population or area so it should have double the rail length of that of Europe.


----------



## foxmulder

RockAss said:


> I thought the line was designed for 300-350 km/h speed, so why they use CRH2 trains, having in mind that line is not connected to the rest of the network it means they shipped those trains there and planing to use them for regular services, or are they going to run them on conventional lines down east of Lanzhou?




Those are not vanilla CRH2, they are CRH2C which are capable of 350km/h.


----------



## Pansori

According to Xinhua:


> A CRH2-061C high-speed train ran through the 300-km Urumqi-Shanshan section at speeds of 160 km to 277 km per hour. *The designed speed is 250 km per hour*, but the train must slow down when passing through windy areas.


Can somebody confirm that this is true/untrue? Some sources say it's 350km/h, others 300km/h and now we see 250km/h.

Could it be that originally it was planned as 350km/h but later for some reason decided to make it 300km/h while the actual operating speed will be 250km/h?


----------



## Restless

foxmulder said:


> The least that can be done is pointing out that half of the China is basically empty whereas Europe is fairly populated in all of its area.
> 
> It is not an easy thing to do comparison of the whole system based on a single variable. For example in case of rail length, two cities can be connected by regular rail or high speed rail. High speed rail obvious advantages we all know compared to regular one, chiefly higher speed and as a consequences higher capacity. Electrification of the lines can be another example. Weight/load capacity of the lines another, other built standards such as vertical and horizontal curve radius etc...
> 
> The point is, you cannot say China has double the population or area so it should have double the rail length of that of Europe.


You can take the densely populated core provinces of China, which from memory comes to about 1100million and around 3million km2. So that is kindof equivalent to 2 Europes.

Then add the outlying provinces which aren't as densely populated.

It's in one of my old posts somewhere.


----------



## keber

foxmulder said:


> High speed rail obvious advantages we all know compared to regular one, chiefly higher speed and as a consequences higher capacity.


Capacity has nothing to do with speed. Usually a subway line has bigger passenger capacity than highspeed railway.


----------



## flankerjun

*I should point out some information：*
During the period of planning this line,some officials considered 200 or 250 at first,but former minister Liuzhijun make a big decision,350KM/H, curve radius 7000m,and finally this line began construction at 350KM/H.
after the 7.23 accident in 2011,,many lines had been adjusted from 350km/h to 250km/h,all of them are in west China,and this is one of these lines.
the bridges and tunnels and most important the curve radius are still in 350KM/H standard.
but there is also a big spec is that the Track Ultra-high,










we all know that the track actually is declining in the turns,this design makes the Gravity produce a force pointing to the inside of the curve,to provide the Centripetal force,and if the Track Ultra-high is not enough ,the train can not run at 350KM/H,and the design for Track Ultra-high is to meet the condition at 250KM/H,so this is a 250KM/H line.
and also there will many normal trains to run at this line,several month ago the railway corporation bought about 1700 25T cars and 651 locos that runs at 160KM/H.the normal train at old lines will decrease.
I do not know how to evaluate this design,in fact this line is quite cheaper compared to the lines in the east,and the change of design from 350KM/H to 250KM/H do not save any money,and in Chinese forum,there are all the anger,and the big slope in this line makes the locos cross the slope quite a hard job,After all it is a 3% slop.


----------



## flankerjun

keber said:


> Capacity has nothing to do with speed. Usually a subway line has bigger passenger capacity than highspeed railway.


Speed and Capacity are Closely related,higher speed means higher Frequency of trains,and more important is the Efficiency of train.
AT a 1000 KM line,if you only have a train and run at 350KM/H,and 18 hours a day,there will 3 pairs of trains,but if you run 200KM/H,3 pairs means you need more trains.


----------



## foxmulder

keber said:


> Capacity has nothing to do with speed. Usually a subway line has bigger passenger capacity than highspeed railway.


Dude, speed is an integral part of capacity calculations.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> Speed and Capacity are Closely related,higher speed means higher Frequency of trains,and more important is the Efficiency of train.
> AT a 1000 KM line,if you only have a train and run at 350KM/H,and 18 hours a day,there will 3 pairs of trains,but if you run 200KM/H,3 pairs means you need more trains.


Yes - you need more trains. But so what?

If you are, say, limited to 6 minute headways on your high speed railway then you can only have 10 trains per hour. Of course, you may not have these trains. But if you have, say, 1000 km line (like Beijing-Nanjing) and you have 30 trains then you are serving the 10 trains per hour and you have no space on the railway for any additional trains. Whereas, if you could shorten headways to 4 minutes if the speed were 250 km/h, then you could have 15 trains per hour. Sure, you´d need 60 trains to do so; but you can use all these 60 and still get 15 trains per hour, so more passengers than at the 350 km/h speed.


----------



## Sunfuns

foxmulder said:


> The least that can be done is pointing out that half of the China is basically empty whereas Europe is fairly populated in all of its area.


Not that it matters, but Europe has some very thinly inhabited areas. Norther Scandinavia and Northern Russia most obviously.


----------



## foxmulder

chornedsnorkack said:


> Yes - you need more trains. But so what?
> 
> If you are, say, limited to 6 minute headways on your high speed railway then you can only have 10 trains per hour. Of course, you may not have these trains. But if you have, say, 1000 km line (like Beijing-Nanjing) and you have 30 trains then you are serving the 10 trains per hour and you have no space on the railway for any additional trains. Whereas, if you could shorten headways to 4 minutes if the speed were 250 km/h, then you could have 15 trains per hour. Sure, you´d need 60 trains to do so; but you can use all these 60 and still get 15 trains per hour, so more passengers than at the 350 km/h speed.


You and keber do not know what exactly railroad capacity means. It means "...maximum number of trains that would be able to operate on a given railway infrastructure, during a specific time interval, given the operational conditions."

Let's say you have a 10km rail line. If you had a single train just sitting in the middle of the line it would have been using the whole capacity. If train is running at 10km/h it will take it 1 hour to "use" that stretch. If it is running at 100km/h it will take 6 minutes so you can have 9 more trains. 

Something like this:



>


----------



## maldini

China Hand said:


> This is typical in China. All forms of regular transport average 30 to 60 kph. Bus, train, car on highways. The HSR, connecting subways, and aircraft of course, eliminate the massive slowdown in transit speeds.
> 
> Once you exit the HSR system your travel speeds will plummet and be much lower than any other country.
> 
> Being within 50kms of a HSR line and/or station will reduce much of this.
> 
> I recall a trip from Guangzhou to Wuhan in early 2010 that took 3.25 hours and then the trip from Wuhan to Xian took 17 hours by bus.
> 
> For those of you who may visit China and want to ride the HSR, you need to prepare for the *very* slow travel velocities once you disembark.
> 
> You will be able to take an HSR trip of 550kms in 2.5 hours and when you get on the connecting bus at the train station you will then consume 90 minutes to travel 50kms.


That's not true anymore. More recently, the speed of most forms of transportation has been vastly improved.


----------



## foxmulder

maldini said:


> That's not true anymore. More recently, the speed of most forms of transportation has been vastly improved.


As can be seen from this topic.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> Please do not post about something you know nothing about.
> 
> You are posting from reading a webpage


You did not bother illustrating exactly how slow the parallel slow speed train was. Well, I cannot easily now check how much a slow train would have taken back in early 2010, but the 15 hours of some K trains is not much faster than the 17 hours of bus.


China Hand said:


> , and you have never set foot in China.


That´s literally false, incidentally.


----------



## stingstingsting

flankerjun said:


> *Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR,250km/h-300km/h,this is a milestone line for Guizhou Province,it is the first HSR in Guizhou,will cut thetime from 20-22 hours to about 4 hours.*


I notice those concrete sleepers by the track. They are not being used nor are they the same profile as the ballastless track. 

Any idea why there's so many there?


----------



## China Hand

foxmulder said:


> As can be seen from this topic.


You guys are wrong.

You post pictures of a freeway, and you have dozens of assumptions about the traffic flow on that road. 

You are wrong about your assumptions.


----------



## China Hand

chornedsnorkack said:


> You did not bother illustrating exactly how slow the parallel slow speed train was. Well, I cannot easily now check how much a slow train would have taken back in early 2010, but the 15 hours of some K trains is not much faster than the 17 hours of bus.


*Why do I have to illustrate this? You claim to be familiar with the topic, you claimed to have visited China or lived in China or travelled in China. If you HAD then I would not have to explain this. You would know it.*

Chorned you don't know what you are talking about. You are posting tables you pull down, but nothing is from real experience because if you had any experience you would be able to tell the truth about times and travel and why it is so slow to travel in China when the speeds you quote are so fast.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Please stop posting on this topic.



> but the 15 hours of some K trains is not much faster than the 17 hours of bus.


You are wrong, again.

Here are some of the reasons why the times are different:
1) Trains often leave at odd hours. Please spare me your compulsoin of pulling table times. I live here. Trains leave at odd hours in many places. How do I know? because I have been on those 3 am K trains that are slower than a bus. Those trains travel at 60phn average speed.

*How do I know they are slower than a bus? Because I timed the trips myself when I rode them and used published as well as personally calculated distances. Me, on a train, stopwatch function of my phone, a calculator. Not some webpage.*

2) One has to wait from 2pm until 3am to catch that train. Connecting fast trains get one to town at odd hours, then it's the local bus (very slow) or a taxi if you can find one to pick you up. In winter. In cold miserable conditions. If you knew the subject (you don't) you would know what travel in China is like. I would not have to post that it's cold, miserable and a nasty experience to wait for those 3 am trains to arrive in Winter, that the nearby hotels will be booked solid and one has no choice but to encamp in the station lobby. This is a miserable experience. No mention of that from you - not a surprise. You are posting fiction.

3) Trains will often be booked beyond standing room capacity. This isn't an adventure, or fun - it's pure misery that no one should ever experience.

So we have here myself who has actually arrived at a train station at 2pm, saw the next train left in 12 hours, it was February, cold and all the hotels were booked solid, and decided to take a long distance sleeper bus because that was the only way to get home.

Then there is the fiction posted by chorned and others.


----------



## China Hand

11 Trains will operate on the Datong line in a few weeks.

8 to from Xian Taiyuan daily
2 to from Baoji Taiyuan daily
1 to from Xian Yucheng weekends only

Live testing with full trainsets to be done next week and the following, 35 failure safety tests performed last week. 

Scheduled opening remains as July 1


----------



## jaysonn341

^^ You seem to be having quite a sour experience travelling in China. My experiences have been completely fine. I've taken the bus from Shanghai to Changzhou/Hangzhou no problems and overnight trains to Beijing that leave within 1 minute of their scheduled departure time. I will admit I haven't traveled into the western areas, but I wouldn't have a high expectation on travel times in those areas anyway.


----------



## flankerjun

stingstingsting said:


> I notice those concrete sleepers by the track. They are not being used nor are they the same profile as the ballastless track.
> 
> Any idea why there's so many there?


there are used on the lines that used for parking trains in stations


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> 11 Trains will operate on the Datong line in a few weeks.
> 
> 8 to from Xian Taiyuan daily
> 2 to from Baoji Taiyuan daily
> 1 to from Xian Yucheng weekends only
> 
> Live testing with full trainsets to be done next week and the following, 35 failure safety tests performed last week.
> 
> Scheduled opening remains as July 1


And how many of these trains have you travelled with, as of today?
Nobody has. That´s even more fiction than the schedules of trains that are reported to actually operate. You read it somewhere, like us. Unless you are personally working at China Railways Corporation, and your boss told you orally.



> Why do I have to illustrate this?


You don´t. Maginn (who is from China, just not mainland) asked a question about the ordinary trains; his supposition that they would be "much faster" than buses was something I could check and illustrate.


> you claimed to have visited China or lived in China or travelled in China.


I claim to have visited China. It was false of you to claim that I have "never set foot" there.
I don´t claim to have "lived" in China. When I travelled in China, it was by group bus, not public transport (except trolleybus).


> Trains often leave at odd hours. Please spare me your compulsoin of pulling table times. I live here. Trains leave at odd hours in many places. How do I know? because I have been on those 3 am K trains


But trains which leave at odd hours are in timetables, too. I have noticed it myself. And sometimes commented on it.



> that are slower than a bus. Those trains travel at 60phn average speed.


Yes. From the timetables, I have noticed several trains that travel at 60 kph, and slower - sometimes below 40 kph. I quite believe that buses are often faster than these trains. But I also believe you that buses are not very fast either. I know that I don´t know how fast buses usually are in China. That´s why I read and listen when those who know bother to tell something.



> No mention of that from you - not a surprise. You are posting fiction.


Just how does not knowing your exact time of arrival make the schedules "fiction"?

But asking about these schedules and connecting trains at odd hours: Are the schedules fiction? Do these trains run on time usually? When you get up to get to a station at 3 am, does the train actually leave at 3 am? Or are you usually left waiting for the delayed train in the cold with no idea whether it shows up at 4 am or 5 am, or worse, hear that it ran ahead of schedule and already left at 2:30 am?

Again - just because a train time is inconvenient does not mean that it´s slow. It can be both slow and odd timed, but it´s perfectly reasonable to prefer a slower vehicle at a time that suits you to a faster vehicle at a bad time. If there HAD been a G train leaving at 3 am and taking 4 hours to bring you to Xian in 4 hours by 7 am (there isn´t), wouldn´t you still have taken the bus rather than wait 13 hours in the cold and with all hotels full? Let alone the choice between 17 hour bus right now or 15 hour K train sometime at night. Or maybe it was 18 hour K train back in 2010. Was it?

And asking the question about places: you say that the K trains are often sold full and standing places are miserable. Are sleeper buses ever sold full? And are the high speed trains often left with standing passengers?


----------



## maginn

chornedsnorkack said:


> And how many of these trains have you travelled with, as of today?
> Nobody has. That´s even more fiction than the schedules of trains that are reported to actually operate. You read it somewhere, like us. Unless you are personally working at China Railways Corporation, and your boss told you orally.
> 
> 
> 
> You don´t. Maginn (who is from China, just not mainland) asked a question about the ordinary trains; his supposition that they would be "much faster" than buses was something I could check and illustrate.
> 
> I claim to have visited China. It was false of you to claim that I have "never set foot" there.
> I don´t claim to have "lived" in China. When I travelled in China, it was by group bus, not public transport (except trolleybus).
> 
> 
> But trains which leave at odd hours are in timetables, too. I have noticed it myself. And sometimes commented on it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. From the timetables, I have noticed several trains that travel at 60 kph, and slower - sometimes below 40 kph. I quite believe that buses are often faster than these trains. But I also believe you that buses are not very fast either. I know that I don´t know how fast buses usually are in China. That´s why I read and listen when those who know bother to tell something.
> 
> 
> 
> Just how does not knowing your exact time of arrival make the schedules "fiction"?
> 
> But asking about these schedules and connecting trains at odd hours: Are the schedules fiction? Do these trains run on time usually? When you get up to get to a station at 3 am, does the train actually leave at 3 am? Or are you usually left waiting for the delayed train in the cold with no idea whether it shows up at 4 am or 5 am, or worse, hear that it ran ahead of schedule and already left at 2:30 am?
> 
> Again - just because a train time is inconvenient does not mean that it´s slow. It can be both slow and odd timed, but it´s perfectly reasonable to prefer a slower vehicle at a time that suits you to a faster vehicle at a bad time. If there HAD been a G train leaving at 3 am and taking 4 hours to bring you to Xian in 4 hours by 7 am (there isn´t), wouldn´t you still have taken the bus rather than wait 13 hours in the cold and with all hotels full? Let alone the choice between 17 hour bus right now or 15 hour K train sometime at night. Or maybe it was 18 hour K train back in 2010. Was it?
> 
> And asking the question about places: you say that the K trains are often sold full and standing places are miserable. Are sleeper buses ever sold full? And are the high speed trains often left with standing passengers?


I can tell you for sure that riding Chinese sleeper buses is a nightmare experience, they are a terrible way to travel... 
If an overnight train runs along the same route, even if it's slightly slower, far more people are going to prefer it over the bus ride (these conventional trains are often cheaper than buses as well).


----------



## China Hand

jaysonn341 said:


> ^^ You seem to be having quite a sour experience travelling in China. My experiences have been completely fine. I've taken the bus from Shanghai to Changzhou/Hangzhou no problems and overnight trains to Beijing that leave within 1 minute of their scheduled departure time. I will admit I haven't traveled into the western areas, but I wouldn't have a high expectation on travel times in those areas anyway.


You guys in the rich major cities will not believe that 95% of China is as I describe.

In fact I assumed long ago that those of you who disagree with my posts, lived and travelled only in the major, rich, or coastal, cities.

Of course this assessment was correct.

You live in a bubble. ""into the western areas,"". Yeah, such as west of Nanjing. Clueless. /s

I know and accept that most of China differs from Changzhou/Hangzhou, BSG, etc.

However you do not know or accept that Changzhou/Hangzhou differs from 95% of China.

This is the typical and default attitude of those in the major, rich, coastal cities.

You guys are posting how great Chinese infrastructure is when in fact you take the CRH from Shanghai to Changzhou and declare it modern.

What a joke.


----------



## HunanChina

DaXi (Datong-Xi'an) line test video. Open this month.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjg4NzUzODEy.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzIyOTI3OTA4.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzA2NzQ0NDk2.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzA3MTQ4NTA4.html

http://me.cztv.com/video-1495743.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzE2NzY4MDc2.html?from=y1.2-1-176.4.4-1.12-1-2-3


----------



## binhai

China Hand said:


> You guys in the rich major cities will not believe that 95% of China is as I describe.
> 
> In fact I assumed long ago that those of you who disagree with my posts, lived and travelled only in the major, rich, or coastal, cities.
> 
> Of course this assessment was correct.
> 
> You live in a bubble. ""into the western areas,"". Yeah, such as west of Nanjing. Clueless. /s
> 
> I know and accept that most of China differs from Changzhou/Hangzhou, BSG, etc.
> 
> However you do not know or accept that Changzhou/Hangzhou differs from 95% of China.
> 
> This is the typical and default attitude of those in the major, rich, coastal cities.
> 
> You guys are posting how great Chinese infrastructure is when in fact you take the CRH from Shanghai to Changzhou and declare it modern.
> 
> What a joke.


I don't doubt you're right, but you might want to shape up on your attitude. Just a hint.


----------



## Pansori

China Hand said:


> You guys are posting how great Chinese infrastructure is when in fact you take the CRH from Shanghai to Changzhou and declare it modern.


I am planning to take this route later this year. What should my expectations be?


----------



## binhai

I'd get a little bored myself with only fast trains. Obviously they will be fast and on-time. Ride some sleeper busses or K trains 

(And you should stop in Tianjin! Check out Goldin Finance 117 - close to Tianjin South Railway Station, and Yujiapu/Xiangluowan if you have more time, about a 45 minute subway ride)

(Possibly also stop in Shantou, the Paris of Asia)


----------



## RockAss

^^ good advice 
Your coastal trip can get a bit boring, of course, first few hours will be quite exciting, but 12 hours on the train either high-speed or not.. you may feel sorry, that you cannot get out of the train. You could brake your trip into few and visit places like Xiamen, famous coastal city and resort. I've done 28 hour train ride once, that was torture never gona do that again, sleeper trains are good to save on the hotel and arrive to your destination in the morning. Sleeper coaches also good where the train cannot take you and/or if the trip time is shorter, but now they have new regulation, and sleeper coaches cannot travel in the hours between 2-5am (or something like that) so they stop extending your trip time..


----------



## foxmulder

China Hand said:


> You guys are wrong.
> 
> You post pictures of a freeway, and you have dozens of assumptions about the traffic flow on that road.
> 
> You are wrong about your assumptions.


I don't get you. Highway and railroad maps are lying? Of course there are thousands of villages and towns without adequate transport infrastructure but still both highway and rail coverage in China is quite good and getting better everyday. If the cheap local buses are not using express-roads not to pay tolls, it is not infrastructure's fault, is it?

If you are talking about traffic jams, well... that happens everywhere and it is a problem of population, season and certain times of the day as much as it is a problem of infrastructure.


----------



## foxmulder

Pansori said:


> I am planning to take this route later this year. What should my expectations be?


Do it!  If I could, I would have split Beijing-Guangzhou and Shanghai-Shenzhen into 2.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

BarbaricManchurian said:


> they will be fast and on-time. Ride some sleeper busses or K trains


So repeating my question: are these K and number trains usually on their slow scheduled time?


----------



## Pansori

foxmulder said:


> Do it!  If I could, I would have split Beijing-Guangzhou and Shanghai-Shenzhen into 2.


No no no. No splits. It has to be 100% train and 100% CRH. That's the whole idea.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> No no no. No splits. It has to be 100% train and 100% CRH. That's the whole idea.


But why Beijing-Guangzhou? That train actually is the longest high speed train. it reaches Shenzhen in 8:33 from Beijing. You could thus do a nearly full circle by CRH... only the gap between Beijing West and South cannot be crossed by HSR.


----------



## Pansori

chornedsnorkack said:


> But why Beijing-Guangzhou? That train actually is the longest high speed train. it reaches Shenzhen in 8:33 from Beijing. You could thus do a nearly full circle by CRH... only the gap between Beijing West and South cannot be crossed by HSR.


Because why the f%$& not.


----------



## jaysonn341

China Hand said:


> You guys in the rich major cities will not believe that 95% of China is as I describe.
> 
> In fact I assumed long ago that those of you who disagree with my posts, lived and travelled only in the major, rich, or coastal, cities.
> 
> Of course this assessment was correct.
> 
> You live in a bubble. ""into the western areas,"". Yeah, such as west of Nanjing. Clueless. /s
> 
> I know and accept that most of China differs from Changzhou/Hangzhou, BSG, etc.
> 
> However you do not know or accept that Changzhou/Hangzhou differs from 95% of China.
> 
> This is the typical and default attitude of those in the major, rich, coastal cities.
> 
> You guys are posting how great Chinese infrastructure is when in fact you take the CRH from Shanghai to Changzhou and declare it modern.
> 
> What a joke.


I get what you're trying to say. 
Apart from Melbourne, the rest of the state of Victoria isn't that great. It's the same concept. 
If everything east of Nanjing is good, that's big enough area for me. I'll be looking forward to the western regions catching up on the development.


----------



## :jax:

Pansori said:


> No no no. No splits. It has to be 100% train and 100% CRH. That's the whole idea.


It would still be 100% train and 100% CRH if you split Beijing-Guangzhou into e.g. Beijing-Wuhan and Wuhan-Guangzhou, and actually spent some hours or a day in Wuhan.


----------



## foxmulder

Pansori said:


> No no no. No splits. It has to be 100% train and 100% CRH. That's the whole idea.


You misunderstood me. Instead of taking whole Beijing-Guangzhou route at once, you can take Beijing-Wuhan, visit Wuhan for couple days then take Wuhan-Guangzhou.. 

edit: I didn't see :jax: post


----------



## :jax:

Yours was more realistic though. Except for stretching your legs on a non-moving platform, and that you could add Wuhan to the list of visited cities, a few hours wouldn't make much of a difference, except turning a 10 hour trip into a 13-16 hour one. Spend the night in a hotel and you would feel rested when arriving in Guangzhou where you likely would have a long metro ride in front of you, unless you are hardcore 100% train and nothing else. A 10 hour trip feels more than twice as long as a 5 hour trip.

(Yes, in context of the other discussion, this is a matter of luxury given the travails of "real" long-distance travel. I too have done multi-day journeys through China on regular trains and busses, but it is still something I would try to avoid if I can.)


----------



## binhai

You can still do the whole thing with CRH, but you should stop at unique places like Shantou and Xiamen. Few other places worldwide have such an amazing old town, and in the case of Xiamen, its own little historic island. But of course it depends what you want. I feel that China is developing so fast that I prefer to see the less-developed and/or historic areas before they are transformed forever. Guangdong/Fujian are unique on earth. The rest of China is somewhat more uniform.


----------



## Pansori

foxmulder said:


> You misunderstood me. Instead of taking whole Beijing-Guangzhou route at once, you can take Beijing-Wuhan, visit Wuhan for couple days then take Wuhan-Guangzhou..
> 
> edit: I didn't see :jax: post


No you don't get me. When I say 100% train I mean 100% train. Only stops at major hubs (Shanghai, Beijing) and origin/destination (Shenzhen/Guangzhou). The whole point of Beijing-Guangzhou is to ride the fastest 7:59 hour service in one go. Same with Shenzhen-Shanghai with the fastest service at 12:00 hours.

It's not a sightseeing trip but a rail trip with nothing but CRH at the core. Plus, of course, I simply won't have enough time to stop at secondary cities even if I wanted to. I'll have a total of two weeks which will have to include my flights from Europe (2 days), some relaxation time in Macau (2-3 days), hiking and sightseeing in Hong Kong (2-3 days) sightseeing in Beijing (my first time there).

Of course I'll do the other option with stopovers at some point. There's loads I need to see in China. Perhaps this could be my next China rail trip which would include cities like Wuhan, Chengdu and Chongqing. Or ancient cities and landscapes. Of course all by rail.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> No you don't get me. When I say 100% train I mean 100% train. Only stops at major hubs (Shanghai, Beijing) and origin/destination (Shenzhen/Guangzhou). The whole point of Beijing-Guangzhou is to ride the fastest 7:59 hour service in one go. Same with Shenzhen-Shanghai with the fastest service at 12:00 hours.
> 
> It's not a sightseeing trip but a rail trip with nothing but CRH at the core. Plus, of course, I simply won't have enough time to stop at secondary cities even if I wanted to.


Beijing-Guangzhou is not the longest HSR train, tough. Beijing-Shenzhen is longer, and can be done in 8:33.


----------



## flankerjun

the news for JULY 1st new schedule

passenger trains reach 2447 pairs,and 1330 pairs are high speed train,more than half of all the passenger trains,new freight train 118 pairs,including 3 China-EU freight trains.


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## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> the news for JULY 1st new schedule
> 
> passenger trains reach 2447 pairs,and 1330 pairs are high speed train,more than half of all the passenger trains


Meaning 1117 pairs of slow speed trains. Is that an increase, too?


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

To be honest China is sometimes shockingly backwards and underdeveloped outside of Yangtze River Delta, Beijing, Pearls River Delta. It's really like two different world's comparing Yangtze River Delta to the inland. I lived in China and traveled through the country so I know what I'm talking about.


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## flankerjun

chornedsnorkack said:


> Meaning 1117 pairs of slow speed trains. Is that an increase, too?


not change much.lots of short distance train cancelled and add many new long distance train.

来自我的 HTC One 上的 Tapatalk


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> lots of short distance train cancelled


And that´s very bad.


----------



## China Hand

Taiyuan Railway Bureau Announcement from today:

Yesterday, from the Taiyuan Railway Bureau, the adjustment Atlantic high-speed rail (Taiyuan - Xian segment) of open operations EMU 27 pairs, including Taiyuan South - Xi'an North 8 pairs, Taiyuan South - Baoji South 2 pairs, Taiyuan South - Yuncheng North 10 pairs Taiyuan South - Linfen West 1 pair. Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan passenger dedicated line Taiyuan newly opened South - Beijing West Rail trains 6 pairs.

Looks as though they are adding more trains from Taiyuan to Beijing to handle the increased throughput.

Note, again, that no trains will direct Xian-Taiyuan-Beijing at this time due to the different line design speeds.

Also add one Yuncheng to Xian weekend train, that from the Xian Bureau and why omitted from this press release.

Scheduled opening remains July 1. Dynamic acceptance and trial operations continuing with 7+1 trainsets.


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## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> Note, again, that no trains will direct Xian-Taiyuan-Beijing at this time due to the different line design speeds.


A bad reason. The line design speed of Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan is already different from the line design speed of Shijiazhuang-Beijing and Shijiazhuang-Guangzhou, yet both carry direct trains.


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## China Hand

As yet another example of what travel within China is like;

Buses from City A to City C stopped running at 520pm. Some routes run to 700pm but that is the latest. This is normal in many parts of the country and the norm outside of Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen and similar. The last bus of the day on many routes will leave between 5 and 6pm.

This route often 60 minutes to 105 minutes. One way. 52kms.

So a trip from City A to City B was required, then a trip from City B to City C.
I set out from my starting point at 540pm and arrived at my destination at 8:45pm.

3 hours 5 minutes, two legs of a journey, 81kms. Bus station to bus station. 26 kms per hour average travel speed, the norm for travel in China.

I fully expect everyone in this thread to post numerous examples of their massive denial, but the fact is that once you travel the one hour from Shanghai to Changzhou and move beyond that small bubble that your travel times will explode higher. It can, and does, and will, take 2 hours to travel the last 60kms of a journey when one disembarks at a CRH station after traveling 600kms in 2hours.

*This reality must be acknowledged*, because visitors to China will read the lies here and think that they can zip around the country and that is simply not true. These travel times will easily add DAYS to an itinerary and must be factored into any trip in China.

Even within a city, it can take 2 hours to travel above ground 12 kms in bad rush hour traffic in any of the major cities that lack a subway, and almost all cities in China do at this date.

12 kms in 2 hours is 6kph. That is walking speed and that is from sitting in a city bus stuck in legendary gridlock that one can find in most Chinese cities.

The only way to avoid this is to fly to all points or to hire a driver - but you and that driver will be stuck in the gridlock with everyone else.

One could restrict your travel to cities will built-out subways that connect to built-out PDL CRH HSR but it should be obvious that 90+% of China does not meet those critieria.

Again, I expect everyone to tell me that this is not so.

What do I know, I only have lived here for 6+ years and I take the bus on a weekly basis.


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## maginn

China Hand said:


> As yet another example of what travel within China is like;
> 
> Buses from City A to City C stopped running at 520pm. Some routes run to 700pm but that is the latest. This is normal in many parts of the country and the norm outside of Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen and similar. The last bus of the day on many routes will leave between 5 and 6pm.
> 
> This route often 60 minutes to 105 minutes. One way. 52kms.
> 
> So a trip from City A to City B was required, then a trip from City B to City C.
> I set out from my starting point at 540pm and arrived at my destination at 8:45pm.
> 
> 3 hours 5 minutes, two legs of a journey, 81kms. Bus station to bus station. 26 kms per hour average travel speed, the norm for travel in China.
> 
> I fully expect everyone in this thread to post numerous examples of their massive denial, but the fact is that once you travel the one hour from Shanghai to Changzhou and move beyond that small bubble that your travel times will explode higher. It can, and does, and will, take 2 hours to travel the last 60kms of a journey when one disembarks at a CRH station after traveling 600kms in 2hours.
> 
> *This reality must be acknowledged*, because visitors to China will read the lies here and think that they can zip around the country and that is simply not true. These travel times will easily add DAYS to an itinerary and must be factored into any trip in China.
> 
> Even within a city, it can take 2 hours to travel above ground 12 kms in bad rush hour traffic in any of the major cities that lack a subway, and almost all cities in China do at this date.
> 
> 12 kms in 2 hours is 6kph. That is walking speed and that is from sitting in a city bus stuck in legendary gridlock that one can find in most Chinese cities.
> 
> The only way to avoid this is to fly to all points or to hire a driver - but you and that driver will be stuck in the gridlock with everyone else.
> 
> One could restrict your travel to cities will built-out subways that connect to built-out PDL CRH HSR but it should be obvious that 90+% of China does not meet those critieria.
> 
> Again, I expect everyone to tell me that this is not so.
> 
> What do I know, I only have lived here for 6+ years and I take the bus on a weekly basis.


Which city in China do you live?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> As yet another example of what travel within China is like;
> 
> Buses from City A to City C stopped running at 520pm. Some routes run to 700pm but that is the latest. This is normal in many parts of the country and the norm outside of Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen and similar. The last bus of the day on many routes will leave between 5 and 6pm.
> 
> This route often 60 minutes to 105 minutes. One way. 52kms.
> 
> So a trip from City A to City B was required, then a trip from City B to City C.
> I set out from my starting point at 540pm and arrived at my destination at 8:45pm.
> 
> 3 hours 5 minutes, two legs of a journey, 81kms. Bus station to bus station. 26 kms per hour average travel speed, the norm for travel in China.
> 
> I fully expect everyone in this thread to post numerous examples of their massive denial, but the fact is that once you travel the one hour from Shanghai to Changzhou and move beyond that small bubble that your travel times will explode higher. It can, and does, and will, take 2 hours to travel the last 60kms of a journey when one disembarks at a CRH station after traveling 600kms in 2hours.


Nice example.


China Hand said:


> *This reality must be acknowledged*, because visitors to China will read the lies here and think that they can zip around the country and that is simply not true. These travel times will easily add DAYS to an itinerary and must be factored into any trip in China.


Pansori is planning to zip around the country. He can - but that´s exactly AROUND the country - Shenzhen-Shanghai-Beijing-Wuhan-Shenzhen, or something like that. It is true that he can zip around the country - but he cannot get into the country. Even Nanchang is hard to get to, let alone somewhere in a village in a remote county.

I´ll counter with an example from my country.
I need to be in a certain village this Saturday (Funeral of a relative).
The map will tell me that the village is 33 km from the nearest town, and a hard road goes there.
The map does not *lie*. I have travelled the distance many times, and the road is hard.

The bus goes from the village to town in 48 minutes. Average speed thus 41 km/h. Actually a pretty good time (see below).

The problem?
On Saturday, the only bus to the town leaves the village at 8:32! No way to get back from the funeral!

This is not the case on Sunday - 2 buses... both in the evening. It is also not the case on Friday - 5 buses around the day. But Saturday - no way to get to the village and back.

It used not to be the case a few years ago, when travelling there and back was possible any day.

Also: as stated 41 km/h is a good speed for a hard road. That 48 minutes is better than the other times. The buses I mentioned on Sunday and Friday take either 50...55 minutes (the said 33 km hard road) or else as much as 1:20 (for longer, circuitous routes that serve other villages and are partly on gravel roads).

So: I quite imagine that moving off the HSR network to countryside gets slow. The question is, how long that last stretch needs to be.

Also: webpages may lie. But very often they simply do not tell you what you do not think to look for.


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## Highcliff

hey, everyone
china proposes a tunnel for high speed rail under the bohai strait








http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Túnel_do_Estreito_de_Bohai


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## China Hand

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> To be honest China is sometimes shockingly backwards and underdeveloped outside of Yangtze River Delta, Beijing, Pearls River Delta. It's really like two different world's comparing Yangtze River Delta to the inland. I lived in China and traveled through the country so I know what I'm talking about.


You all continue to miss the salient point.

One can have shiny new freeways and tollways as was posted in a link, but what you are assuming is that if the infrastructure is modern and looks like that of a developed country, that travel times will be similar.

They will not.

There are many *behavioural and culture factors* that will affect travel times, so that instead of driving.1200 kms in one day as one can in North America, in China on limited access roadways with the same technology level one will be able to drive only 400 kms in one day.

This is necessary to accurately calculate travel times.

If one were to attempt to drive from Shanghai to Kunming, and the entire route has Autobahn like 4-lane modern roadways, one would need to assume that after 400kms you would be stopping to get a hotel room. It does not matter that the left hand lane is rated to 120kph, you won't be traveling at that speed.

Using any online mapping and trip calculators will tell you a flat out lie and delusional trip time for long distance driving trips in China. Any time will need to be doubled to get close to the reality of how long it will take.

I have done this and Chinese drivers simply do not behave as you assume.

Only flying and CRH and subways will get you about quickly. The instant you leave those networks and get onto anything with wheels, average speed can plummet to 30kph.


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## jaysonn341

^^ Which city/town/village do you have to travel to for such a journey? 

It should be fair to assume that travel between major cities is most important at this stage. If you want to get to some unknown village or small city the cheapest way possible, then I guess you'll have to contend with longer travel times by a bus.


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## foxmulder

China Hand said:


> You all continue to miss the salient point.
> 
> One can have shiny new freeways and tollways as was posted in a link, but what you are assuming is that if the infrastructure is modern and looks like that of a developed country, that travel times will be similar.
> 
> They will not.
> 
> There are many *behavioural and culture factors* that will affect travel times, so that instead of driving.1200 kms in one day as one can in North America, in China on limited access roadways with the same technology level one will be able to drive only 400 kms in one day.
> 
> This is necessary to accurately calculate travel times.
> 
> If one were to attempt to drive from Shanghai to Kunming, and the entire route has Autobahn like 4-lane modern roadways, one would need to assume that after 400kms you would be stopping to get a hotel room. It does not matter that the left hand lane is rated to 120kph, you won't be traveling at that speed.
> 
> Using any online mapping and trip calculators will tell you a flat out lie and delusional trip time for long distance driving trips in China. Any time will need to be doubled to get close to the reality of how long it will take.
> 
> I have done this and Chinese drivers simply do not behave as you assume.
> 
> Only flying and CRH and subways will get you about quickly. The instant you leave those networks and get onto anything with wheels, average speed can plummet to 30kph.


By this post you lost whatever left from your credibility in my eyes. First, it was infrastructure now it is cultural and behavioral stuff...

Did you ever try to drive around New York or LA or San Fran...? You will experience similar traffic jams. Moscow, Istanbul, London.. every large city is the same. Google says for New York to Boston 3h40min, it sometimes takes more 2 hours to get out of the city! Pretty much same story...

And, China has the high speed rail so you can zoom around the country. And when there is no traffic jam (i.e out of metropolitan areas), since there is highways, you can drive with relative comfort, too. You are talking like all those highways do not exist.


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## saiho

China Hand said:


> You all continue to miss the salient point.
> 
> One can have shiny new freeways and tollways as was posted in a link, but what you are assuming is that if the infrastructure is modern and looks like that of a developed country, that travel times will be similar.
> 
> They will not.
> 
> There are many *behavioural and culture factors* that will affect travel times, so that instead of driving.1200 kms in one day as one can in North America, in China on limited access roadways with the same technology level one will be able to drive only 400 kms in one day.
> 
> This is necessary to accurately calculate travel times.
> 
> If one were to attempt to drive from Shanghai to Kunming, and the entire route has Autobahn like 4-lane modern roadways, one would need to assume that after 400kms you would be stopping to get a hotel room. It does not matter that the left hand lane is rated to 120kph, you won't be traveling at that speed.
> 
> Using any online mapping and trip calculators will tell you a flat out lie and delusional trip time for long distance driving trips in China. Any time will need to be doubled to get close to the reality of how long it will take.
> 
> I have done this and Chinese drivers simply do not behave as you assume.
> 
> Only flying and CRH and subways will get you about quickly. The instant you leave those networks and get onto anything with wheels, average speed can plummet to 30kph.


I don't understand how behavioral factors more than halve the speeds achieved on an expressway. When I visit China for relatives the expressway speeds in the countryside seem more in line with America.


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## Pansori

saiho said:


> I don't understand how behavioral factors more than halve the speeds achieved on an expressway. When I visit China for relatives the expressway speeds in the countryside seem more in line with America.


It is true that average speeds on an expressway/motorway in most European countries (primarily Germany) may be considerably higher than in China. After all lane discipline in China is virtually nonexistent (as opposed to Europe). However US is not much different in this respect. Therefore I would not be surprised that average speeds on US interstates aren't much higher than they are on China's expressways. 

Lane discipline _IS_ a good thing though.


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## :jax:

To some extent it applies even to us first tier people in first tier cities. The whole infrastructure package has to work if the intent is to zip effortlessly from A to B. 

The HSR time from Beijing to Tianjin is 30 minutes. Currently I live very conveniently to the South station, but I still have to estimate one hour (40 minutes with metro, 15-60 minutes with taxi depending on traffic, plus walking time in station and gates closing). Next year I'll have moved and the estimated travelling time is two hours. Then add whatever time I'd need in Tianjin. HSR still beats slow but direct buses, if not by much. 

If you have an HSR ticket into Beijing, and another one out of it, you would most likely have to transfer stations. Then you'd have to set off at least one hour transfer time, and better not have much luggage, because the transfer will not be comfortable.


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## China Hand

That above trip today, 100 minutes 51 kms. 30kph. One segment he was at 17 kph for 15 minutes. This has nothing to do with the road - other vehicles drive past quickly.

This is cultural and behavioural.

I estimate that once anyone travels more than 10 kms away from a HSR line that travel velocities will drop to ~30kph. In fact we drive under an HSR line at these velocities.

I suppose the trick would be to never venture beyond those areas.


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## Sopomon

:jax: said:


> To some extent it applies even to us first tier people in first tier cities. The whole infrastructure package has to work if the intent is to zip effortlessly from A to B.
> 
> The HSR time from Beijing to Tianjin is 30 minutes. Currently I live very conveniently to the South station, but I still have to estimate one hour (40 minutes with metro, 15-60 minutes with taxi depending on traffic, plus walking time in station and gates closing). Next year I'll have moved and the estimated travelling time is two hours. Then add whatever time I'd need in Tianjin. HSR still beats slow but direct buses, if not by much.
> 
> If you have an HSR ticket into Beijing, and another one out of it, you would most likely have to transfer stations. Then you'd have to set off at least one hour transfer time, and better not have much luggage, because the transfer will not be comfortable.


That is the exact problem that occurs when you treat HSR stations like small domestic airports, out of the city. The city may well grow around the stations, but there will still be the 90% who have to spend an hour or more on public tranport - losing the benefit of ease of use.


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## big-dog

^^ yes for now. But Chinese cities are far from settled as of now. Almost all of them are under turbulence of rebuild or people movement. Given 10 years 30% may have lived closer to new stations and new settlement is accelerating when more facilities are being built up.

I was taking HSR to visit parents on Thursday. My parents have moved to new apartment near the station. The reason is simple, cheaper housing, better environment, not much traffic, close to work (government are moving to new areas too).

So traditional reasoning may not apply to a fast changing scenario, esp for Tier II/III mainland cities.


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## Sunfuns

Is there really a place in Beijing (for example) which could be accessed by >90% of inhabitants with public transport in less than an hour? I'm not familiar with the city, but my guess would be no.


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## Sopomon

big-dog said:


> ^^ yes for now. But Chinese cities are far from settled as of now. Almost all of them are under turbulence of rebuild or people movement. Given 10 years 30% may have lived closer to new stations and new settlement is accelerating when more facilities are being built up.
> 
> I was taking HSR to visit parents on Thursday. My parents have moved to new apartment near the station. The reason is simple, cheaper housing, better environment, not much traffic, close to work (government are moving to new areas too).
> 
> So traditional reasoning may not apply to a fast changing scenario, esp for Tier II/III mainland cities.



Well yes and no, a cursory glance at the latest Google Earth imagery (all 2013/2014) shows little to no development around Wuhan, Changsha, Shaoguan and Hengyang. Absolutely no development around Leiyang station was seen.


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## jaysonn341

:jax: said:


> The HSR time from Beijing to Tianjin is 30 minutes. Currently I live very conveniently to the South station, but I still have to estimate one hour (40 minutes with metro, 15-60 minutes with taxi depending on traffic, *plus walking time in station* and gates closing).


The time it took me to walk from the metro exit to the platform for the bullet train in Tokyo station was 20 minutes. It was a 400m walk with luggage :nuts: and this was the SAME station.


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## foxmulder

Sopomon said:


> That is the exact problem that occurs when you treat HSR stations like small domestic airports, out of the city. The city may well grow around the stations, but there will still be the 90% who have to spend an hour or more on public tranport - losing the benefit of ease of use.



They are more like big international airports  :cheers:


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## hkskyline

Beijing South


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## :jax:

hkskyline said:


> Beijing South


Ah, if I had known about these pictures a week ago, I would have saved myself some trouble. I had seen somebody off at the South station and was going down the escalator to the metro when I saw these huge posters and decided to take pictures of them. However they had redesigned this mezzanine into kind of a demilitarised zone, so when I took the escalator back up I had to go through the security to the trains and as so happens I was carrying a rather large pair of scissors. When discovered I was able to explain I was actually going to the metro, and if I were a lunatic scissor killer that would be the metro's problem, not theirs.

There was a third poster on display IIRC, I could post it if any interest.

Incidentally the blue lines in the bottom picture is the coming 14 line station (as labelled), to be opened next year and relieving the 4 line (the red lines).


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## binhai

^^Mixed the two up.


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## :jax:

Yes, sorry. Fixed now.


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## chornedsnorkack

jaysonn341 said:


> The time it took me to walk from the metro exit to the platform for the bullet train in Tokyo station was 20 minutes. It was a 400m walk with luggage :nuts: and this was the SAME station.


And yet people here bring Japanese HSR stations as examples of compactness for China.

Every train arriving in Tokyo by Tokaido Shinkansen, even the express Nozomi trains, makes 3 stops: Shin-Yokohama (25,5 km from Tokyo), Shinagawa (6,8 km from Tokyo) and Tokyo.

And Shinagawa and Tokyo are both old, slow speed railway stations. The whole 7 km viaduct from Shinagawa to Tokyo has both high speed railway and very dense slow speed railway service including Yamanote Line, which makes 4 stops on these 6,8 km (Tamamachi, Hamamatsucho, Shimbashi, Yurakucho).
On the northern suburbs, Tohoku, Joetsu and Nagano Shinkansen share a 31,3 km section also with 3 stations (Tokyo, Ueno 3,6 km away, Omiya), also with many other lines - Yamanote line stations on these 3,6 km are Kanda, Akihabara, Okachimachi.

A distance of about 4 km is on the railway from Shanghai West to Shanghai station. Should the long distance HSR trains be made to stop at Shanghai West and Shanghai stations, not Hongqiao, and should they share the corridor with commuter trains having several stations between Shanghai and Shanghai West?


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## China Hand

Nice new station, I like the general design of most of these.

This one is on the small side, however. Well, for China it is...


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## chornedsnorkack

Another big news - some G trains run not over night but originate at night!

G2583 originates at Beijing South at 2:32 (sic!), reaches Tianjin South at 3:07, departs 3:10 and goes on to reach Shenyang North at 6:37, Changchun West at 7:54 and Harbin West at 9:04!

How do the metros and trolleybuses of Beijing and Tianjin operate at the odd hours of 2...4 AM in order to get on such originating trains?


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## hkskyline

Shanghai Hongqiao


Flickr 上 xfhofficial 的 Shanghai Hongqiao Railway Station


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## doc7austin

> How do the metros and trolleybuses of Beijing and Tianjin operate at the odd hours of 2...4 AM in order to get on such originating trains?


Well, passengers would need to take a taxi. But if it rains in Beijing -> no taxi!


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## big-dog

^^ nowadays people use cellphone apps (滴滴 or 快的) to call taxi. you can add a couple of bucks on a busy day so in theory you cannot have a no-taxi day if you use apps.


----------



## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> Among new connections, Xiamen now has high speed train to Beijing (G166, 12:42, compare K308, 33:14) as well as Chongqing (D2232, 14:57, compare K336, 34:09).
> 
> There now seems to be one high speed train Chengdu-Zhengzhou (D2202, 13:30, compare 10 slow trains, 17:36 to 25:55), among the total of 9 D trains Chengdu-Wuhan. D2244 goes to Fuzhou (in 15:47), D2224 to Hangzhou (in 15:00), D628 to Shanghai (in 16:15), as does D2208 (in 14:58), D2238 to Nanchang (in 12:36), D2256 to Nanjing (in 13:15), D2260 and D368 terminate at Wuhan.


The completion of *Yichang-Wanxian HSR* renovation project enabled D trains from East/central China to Chongqing/Chendu. D2251 from Wuhan-Chongqing takes 6 hour 49 minutes, cutting the travel time half.


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## China Hand

big-dog said:


> Nobody walks 10km after getting off a train  and if people travel long distance they will save more time by taking HSR.


I know people who have walked from the interstate 4kms into the old town of Pingyao.

Most people alight and have someone pick them up, or they take the city bus, or they take the local shuttles, but occasionally they will walk. I see this on the roadside on occasion. Rice sack full of possessions on back, walking along the road.


----------



## China Hand

big-dog said:


> ^^ nowadays people use cellphone apps (滴滴 or 快的) to call taxi. you can add a couple of bucks on a busy day so in theory you cannot have a no-taxi day if you use apps.


You are describing Shanghai, not all of China.

People direct dial their taxi in rural China, jitney with 3 others to save money.

There is no app for the smaller tiered cities.

The larger provincial capitals and Tier 2, perhaps most. Below Tier 2, no.


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## hkskyline

*Bullet train networks growing at high speed*
2 July 2014
China Daily	

China's high-speed bullet trains now make up more than half of the country's railway services.

China Railway Corp, the State-owned rail operator, introduced a new service schedule on Tuesday to meet the booming demand from the public.

The new plan, marking the most significant changes since 2007, puts the number of Chinese passenger trains in service at 4,894, of which 2,660 are CRH high-speed bullet trains running at speeds of more than 200 km per hour.

China has the longest high-speed railway network in the world, with more than 10,000 km in operation. It is also actively promoting Chinese high-speed railway technology to other countries, including Turkey, Thailand, and the United Kingdom.

Workers with the China Railway Corp's transportation bureau have replaced the old plan with the new one in their main servers, and local railway bureaus and stations will rearrange their services and personnel based on the new plan, said Zhu Jianping, deputy head of the bureau's dispatch department.

"The fact that China Railway Corp adjusts its operation plan every six months shows that the nation's rail network is expanding at an unprecedented speed," said Ji Jialun, a railway expert at Beijing Jiaotong University. "Compared with the past, now almost all of the major parts used on our bullet trains are developed and manufactured by Chinese engineers."

He said China has long commanded key technologies in the high-speed rail sector and can produce reliable parts as good as the imported ones.

However, other analysts also warned security must be a top priority.

"Railway operators and authorities must pay more attention to the operational safety as they continue boosting the rail network," said Xu Guangjian, deputy dean of the School of Public Administration and Policy at Renmin University of China.

"In the near future, a bullet train will travel from the ultracold northeastern provinces to eastern coastal regions that have warm and wet weather, which will pose a huge challenge to planning, maintenance and control personnel."

"The new operation plan prioritizes the market's demands and diversifies the services provided for ordinary days and peak periods," Zhu said. "The daily transport capacity of high-speed lines would be increased by 70,000 travelers, 3.8 percent higher than in the past."

The Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway, the busiest route in China, has transported 220 million passengers in the past three years, largely due to the high-speed service.

The country's railways registered 199.7 million passenger trips in May, 20 percent more than in April, marking the biggest monthly rise this year, figures from China Railway Corp showed.

All 18 branches of the company reported growth in passenger traffic, with the Nanning branch in the Guangxi Zhuang autonomous region ranking the highest with a rise of 46.8 percent.


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## foxmulder

Mind boggling. 10 years ago, there was nothing. This progress indicates China's future potential.


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## hkskyline

It's a great transformation, and hopefully that means less people flying, so less delays in the congested air corridors.


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## teddybear

I never thought China will have high speed train development this fast. This is very good for China. Development of safe, fast transport is very much needed for a large country with many population such as China. Very great job indeed.


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## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> The completion of *Yichang-Wanxian HSR* renovation project enabled D trains from East/central China to Chongqing/Chendu. D2251 from Wuhan-Chongqing takes 6 hour 49 minutes, cutting the travel time half.


Not half!

The D trains Wuhan-Chongqing take 6:41 (D2242) to 7:44 (D2236).

Slow speed trains begin at 8:34 (T57).
K trains are, yes, from 14:44 (K1153) to 19:07 (K1268).

Although that T57 runs on the Yichang-Wanzhou high speed railway.


----------



## Giresun

*China-Turkey high-speed railway*

*New Silk Road between Europe,Central Asia and China *



> The 6,000-km link will start in Xinjiang and pass through Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Iran and Turkey to Bulgaria, said Zhao Xiaogang, former chairman of China South Locomotive and Rolling Stock Co (CSR), a leading Chinese industrial manufacturer and exporter.
> 
> Zhao is also an adviser to the China Institute for Innovation and Development Strategy.
> 
> Passenger train speeds will reach 200 kph and freight trains 160 kph, Zhao told the daily.
> 
> *Investment in the line will be about $150 billion, Zhao said, adding that it could be largely finished in 2020 and fully completed by 2030.*
> 
> "It can be regarded as a new Silk Road," he said.
> 
> The pace of railway construction in Xinjiang has increased significantly since September, when Chinese President Xi Jinping raised the idea of a Silk Road economic belt. He proposed reviving the ancient trade route connecting China, Central Asia and Europe.
> 
> *Zhao also said China is considering a 3,000-km line from Yunnan province that would pass through Laos, Thailand and Malaysia to Singapore.*
> 
> Total investment would be about $75 billion and the project would boost the GDP of China and related countries by $375 billion. The project could be largely finished in 2020 and fully completed in 2025, he said.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/mo...ilway.aspx?pageID=238&nID=68715&NewsCatID=359


----------



## kunming tiger

What are the expected new HSR lines to open in 2014?


----------



## Sopomon

> Passenger train speeds will reach 200 kph and freight trains 160 kph, Zhao told the daily.


200km/h newly built is not high speed.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> I know people who have walked from the interstate 4kms into the old town of Pingyao.
> 
> Most people alight and have someone pick them up, or they take the city bus, or they take the local shuttles, but occasionally they will walk. I see this on the roadside on occasion. Rice sack full of possessions on back, walking along the road.


Is it along the verge of the road, or does a sidewalk/light traffic road exist along the road for pedestrians and bicycles? 
Same question about the 10 km distance between Pingyao and Pingyao HSR station.

Also, what kind of bicycle parking arrangements are available in new HSR stations like Pingyao?


----------



## Geography

What's the financial situation of the high speed railways? Are they making an operating profit, at least?

Taiwan's HSR makes a large operating profit but its high debt service puts it into red.


----------



## :jax:

Giresun said:


> *China-Turkey high-speed railway*
> 
> *New Silk Road between Europe,Central Asia and China *
> 
> http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/mo...ilway.aspx?pageID=238&nID=68715&NewsCatID=359


Reposted it in ASIA | Pan Asian Railway


----------



## nayaad.nadeem

*Pakistan Railways*

can any one write review on our (Pakistan ) railways?


----------



## China Hand

Sopomon said:


> 200km/h newly built is not high speed.


By definition it is, whether you agree or not.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

As of 1st of September, what shall be the best travel times Nanchang-Guangzhou and Nanchang-Beijing respectively?


----------



## hamstergogogo

luhai said:


> Interesting that Changsha-Nanchang would open first. I guess this make visiting "in-laws" easier, don't know if that's a good thing or not.


lol finally a post cracked me up

maybe the world bank should start studying that


----------



## hmmwv

China Hand said:


> Although we should all be grateful Pre-2004 travel times by truck from Beijing would average 20kph on winding 1.5 lane mountain roads. Imagine 3 days to get from Beijing to ShiJiaZhuang.


Oh you are so funny with your exaggerated claims, I'm sure you are aware that the highway linking Beijing and Shijiazhuang was one of the first modern highways in China, right? I have personally taken long distance bus rides in 95 or 96, and again in early 2000s, both cases the trip lasted about 3 hours.


----------



## China Hand

hmmwv said:


> Oh you are so funny with your exaggerated claims, I'm sure you are aware that the highway linking Beijing and Shijiazhuang was one of the first modern highways in China, right? I have personally taken long distance bus rides in 95 or 96, and again in early 2000s, both cases the trip lasted about 3 hours.


ShiJiaZhuang is not in northern Shanxi, which is the route the drivers were taking of the story I recount. Twisting mountain roads, 1.5 lanes sometimes, with bumper to bumper traffic, from Beijing to Datong and on south. 40kph at best, 25kph is what they told me. Late 90's up till they built out the tollroads ~2008. I have taken trips that duplicate this and the winding, narrow, low speed mountain roads with trucks lined up happen on many roads today.

I merely repeat what local truckers relatives have told me.

Take up your complaint with them and keep in mind that even today, non-toll road traffic (where I live no one will take a toll road if they can avoid it and that includes trucks - why? it costs money) travels at the customary 40kph average. Huge single file lines of traffic on national and provincial level roads that are stacked up.

I would tell you I know this because I get stuck in traffic behind these trucks either in a bus or on my moto, but you are from Shanghai so you know everything about all of China. All of that semi-truck traffic at 40kph single file or looking to pass must be an illusion, I tell ya.

Then there are the local provincial rules that forbid large truck and bus traffic past 8pm, but you are from Shanghai and I am *sure* you know this also and how that would affect travel times.
This also something I just made up rather than observe and are told and read the regulations online in Chinese and notice that all buses leave last trip at 6pm because they cannot be on the road past 8pm and have been in an auto at 8pm and notice that all the trucks are gone.

You east coast people are arrogant know-it-alls who apply your experience to the rest of China and to do so is dishonest. Oddly enough this trait affects both the locals, who hold the interior in contempt, and expats, who think they know China when in fact they know about 100 sq kms of either Beijing or Shanghai.

Really I cannot figure out how I am able to understand that Shanghai is different from the interior of China, but you seem to think that because you know the east coast of China then you know all of China.

Must be big city syndrome. Think you know it all.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

China Hand said:


> Then there are the local provincial rules that forbid large truck and bus traffic past 8pm, but you are from Shanghai and I am *sure* you know this also and how that would affect travel times.
> This also something I just made up rather than observe and are told and read the regulations online in Chinese and notice that all buses leave last trip at 6pm because they cannot be on the road past 8pm and have been in an auto at 8pm and notice that all the trucks are gone.


Sounds like another edge for trains. While the CRH network does shut down for night, that´s after 11 pm, not 8 pm as with buses. Taking the example of Taiyuan, late evening trains Beijing-Taiyuan are G621 (17:57-20:54), G623 (18:23-21:30), G625 (18:56-22:02), T7 (17:10-22:47) and G627 (20:21-23:24).

If you arrive at Taiyuan South after 8 pm as G621 to G627 do, are there any local buses from Taiyuan South to your destination?


----------



## foxmulder

China Hand said:


> Take up your complaint with them and keep in mind that even today,* non-toll road traffic* (where I live no one will take a toll road if they can avoid it and that includes trucks - why? it costs money) travels at the customary 40kph average.



It is funny that you wrote this here now... I wrote to same thing as a response to one of your previous absurd claims which could have been only partially true on non-toll roads. It is *not *infrastructure's fault if some people prefer to use these secondary backroads instead of highways. Also, these "observation" will hold everywhere... what's special for China? If you use a route instead of freeway, you will be way slow in USA, too.


----------



## kunming tiger

Yunnan railway stations implement real-name ticket verification system

[InKunming--Yunnan] According to the Kunming Railway Bureau, and in line with the requirements of the China Railway Corporation, starting from August 15, four train stations in Yunnan province - Kunming, Qujing, Dali, and Lijiang implemented a real-name ticket verification system.
Passengers taking intercity trains are required to bring their ID cards for the journey.
The trains that follow the real-name system are: Kunming - Qujing - Sherwin intercity trains (Kunming and Qujing stations), Kunming - Mengzi North intercity trains (Kunming station), Kunming - Liupanshui No. 6062, Kunming - Panzhihua No. 6162, Kunming – Hongguo No.7452 (Kunming, and Qujing stations), Kunming - Dali – Lijiang daytime train (Kunming, Dali, and Lijiang stations). All temporary additional trains departing from these stations also follow this same ruling.
Railway authorities say that travelers without IDs can apply for a temporary ID card at a dedicated counter in the railway stations, where they will be required to report their name, ID number, and provide a valid proof of identity, such as a marriage certificate, or a proof of residence. After data verification, the staff will then print out a temporary proof of identification which will enable the applicant to buy tickets, return tickets, or make a transfer during the journey.


----------



## China Hand

I thought the Real-ID was nearly universal in China for train travel since 2011?


----------



## luhai

China Hand said:


> I thought the Real-ID was nearly universal in China for train travel since 2011?


That's true for most areas, however for yunnan, there are many remote areas there such thing is impossible to implement and they are using the old system.


----------



## hkskyline

*Chengdu-Guiyang high-speed railway to open by 2019*
China Daily
26 August 2014 

The Chengdu-Guiyang high-speed railway is expected to open by December 2019, the Chengdu railway bureau announced on Monday.

Starting from Chengdu South Station, the railway route covers Sichuan, Yunnan and Guizhou province. With a total investment of 78 billion yuan ($12.67 billion), the railway stretches 632.6 km and runs 250 km per hour.

The Chengdu-Guiyang high-speed railway began construction on December 25 last year. After the high-speed railway goes into use, it will take only 2 hours to go from Guiyang to Chengdu, benefiting 36 million people along the railway.


----------



## erkantang

hkskyline said:


> *Chengdu-Guiyang high-speed railway to open by 2019*
> China Daily
> 26 August 2014
> 
> The Chengdu-Guiyang high-speed railway is expected to open by December 2019, the Chengdu railway bureau announced on Monday.
> 
> Starting from Chengdu South Station, the railway route covers Sichuan, Yunnan and Guizhou province. With a total investment of 78 billion yuan ($12.67 billion), the railway stretches 632.6 km and runs 250 km per hour.
> 
> The Chengdu-Guiyang high-speed railway began construction on December 25 last year. After the high-speed railway goes into use, it will take only 2 hours to go from Guiyang to Chengdu, benefiting 36 million people along the railway.



Why just 250km per hour?And how long does the journey takes now?


----------



## stoneybee

erkantang said:


> Why just 250km per hour?And how long does the journey takes now?



My guess is that this is mostly the result of geological condition and landscape pattern of the area. If you have been to that part of China, you will have noticed that the entire terrain is made up of steep mountains and deep valleys, plus the primary rock formation is limestone.

So building any kind of high speed railway is going to be challenging. 300KM plus per hour route will be extremely costly and I am not even sure it will be safe to use based on today's technologies.

This is also only the southern part of the western link centering around Sichuan which will eventually get extended to Kumming, and the northern link from Chengdu to Lanzhou is also under construction now. Once completed, this will dramatically improve the transportation network of the western part of China. I will even call it a game changer if you ask me.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

erkantang said:


> And how long does the journey takes now?


From 10:59 (T8898) to 20:26 (K1271).

So the under construction railways to Guiyang are:
Chengdu-Guiyang - 2019
Changsha-Guiyang - date?
Guangzhou-Guiyang - date?
Kunming-Guiyang - date?

Also, are there any other direct lines under construction?
Chongqing?
Wuhan?
Nanning?


----------



## flankerjun

erkantang said:


> Why just 250km per hour?And how long does the journey takes now?


it used to be a 350km/H line.and slow dowm to 250km/h in 2012,but still have a curve of 7000m.


----------



## flankerjun

*Shanghai bullet train yard.
*


----------



## big-dog

^^ I can see this yard everytime the train is about to run into Hongqiao Station.


----------



## flankerjun

some pictures,Shenyang


----------



## flankerjun

and the Beijing-moscow train


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> and the Beijing-moscow train


The problem is that it is not high speed.


----------



## Slagathor

I would say the problem is that it's going to Moscow.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

These 7 stations appear to count both termini:

Nanchang West
Gaoan
Xinyu North
Yichun East
Pingxiang North
Liling North
Changsha South


----------



## kunming tiger

What is the expected opening date of the Changsha to Gui Yang section of the line?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

The 348 km Wuhan-Changsha high speed railway now has 9 express G trains daily, taking 1:18 or 1:19. Also 58 non-express G trains at up to 1:47, and 1 D train.

So how many daily trains shall operate Nanchang-Changsha from 17th of September?


----------



## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> The 348 km Wuhan-Changsha high speed railway now has 9 express G trains daily, taking 1:18 or 1:19. Also 58 non-express G trains at up to 1:47, and 1 D train.
> 
> So how many daily trains shall operate Nanchang-Changsha from 17th of September?





> 据了解，开通运营初期，铁路部门将开行13对列车，含“D”字头动车组列车2对，“G”字头动车组列车11对。其中，长沙南至南昌西站开行4对;广州南(经长沙南)至南昌西站2对，深圳北(经长沙南)至南昌西站2对，另有北京方向经长沙至南昌的高铁2对，西安方向经长沙至南昌的高铁1对，长沙至福州、厦门方向开行动车各1对。





> It is understood that the opening of the initial operation , the railway sector will open the line 13 pairs of trains, including "D" prefix EMU train two pairs , "G" prefix EMU trains 11 pairs. Among them, Changsha, Nanchang Railway Station south CDB four pairs ; Guangzhou South ( via long Shanan ) to Nanchang West Station 2 right, Shenzhen North ( via long Shanan ) to Nanchang West Station 2 pairs , while Beijing to Nanchang, Changsha direction by the high-speed rail two pairs , Xi'an , Changsha and Nanchang direction by one pair of high-speed rail , Changsha to Fuzhou, Xiamen direction of opening action car each one right.


13 pairs, 2 pairs of D and 11 pairs of G.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

luhai said:


> 13 pairs, 2 pairs of D and 11 pairs of G.


There already are 2 pairs of D trains from Nanchang to Changsha, on old railway.
Also there are 2 pairs of D trains Changsha-Guangzhou.
Shall there be any D train Nanchang-Guangzhou?


----------



## FM 2258

chornedsnorkack said:


> There already are 2 pairs of D trains from Nanchang to Changsha, on old railway.
> Also there are 2 pairs of D trains Changsha-Guangzhou.
> Shall there be any D train Nanchang-Guangzhou?


It's cool/interesting to see that when these 350km/h lines open up there usually seems to be high speed rail already running on the conventional line. My question always is, will they still run D trains on the conventional line after the G line opens?


----------



## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> There already are 2 pairs of D trains from Nanchang to Changsha, on old railway.
> Also there are 2 pairs of D trains Changsha-Guangzhou.
> Shall there be any D train Nanchang-Guangzhou?


Don't know about D trains, but there will be 4 pairs of G trains. two pairs of Guangzhou-Nanchang, 2 pairs of Shenzhen-Nanchang



> 沪昆高铁南昌至长沙段运行初期部分列车时刻表
> 
> 广州南站至南昌西站开行2趟
> 
> G632次
> 
> 13:06广州南站开，15:55到长沙南站，17:32终到南昌西站
> 
> G636次
> 
> 6:53广州南站开，9:34到长沙南站，11:20终到南昌西站
> 
> 南昌西站至广州南站开行2趟
> 
> G631次
> 
> 8:14南昌西站开，9:47到长沙南站，12:47终到广州南站
> 
> G635次
> 
> 19:30南昌西站开，21:04到长沙南站，23:47终到广州南站
> 
> 深圳北站至南昌西站开行2趟
> 
> G634次
> 
> 16:32深圳北站开，20:00到长沙南站，21:44终到南昌西站
> 
> G638次
> 
> 18:38深圳北站开，22:01到长沙南站，23:32终到南昌西站
> 
> 南昌西站至深圳北站开行2趟
> 
> G633次
> 
> 11:02南昌西站开，12:43到长沙南站，16:05终到深圳北站
> 
> G637次
> 
> 7:47南昌西站开，9:35到长沙南站，13:11终到深圳北站


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Yes! Found the data.
Trip time Nanchang-Changsha 1:33 to 1:51. No express trains.
Trip time Nanchang-Guangzhou 4:17 to 4:43
Trip time Nanchang-Shenzhen via Changsha 5:03 and 5:24.


----------



## foxmulder

> Nearly 8,300 tons of cement and steel twisted through the air as two sections of a swivel bridge along the high-speed rail route linking Shanghai and Kunming joined on Wednesday afternoon. Watch this time-lapse video recording of the fascinating feat of engineering.







:cheers:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

^^ Which section of Shanghai-Kunming high speed railway has bridges still under construction? Nanchang-Changsha must open in 5 days.

Various routes:
Nanchang-Changsha: now 4 trains total, 2 D trains running on slow railway, 419 km long, fastest D205, 3:30, 122 yuan 5 jiao second class
by 17th, 13 trains total, 11 G trains on new line, from 1:33 to 1:51 (no expresses), 157 yuan second class

Nanchang-Guangzhou: now 9 trains total, fastest T159, 10:47, hard seat 124 yuan
by 17th, 4 G trains, from 4:17 to 4:43, second class 472 yuan

Nanchang-Shenzhen: now fastest D2321 via Xiamen, 8:31 to Longhua Station, second class 352 yuan 5 jiao
by 17th, 2 G trains at 5:03 and 5:24, second class 546 yuan 5 jiao

Nanchang-Wuhan: the 690 km high speed railway makes a big detour via Changsha. Now fastest on old railway D2242, Fuzhou-Chengdu, 2:31 for 344 km Nanchang-Wuhan, second class 100 yuan 5 jiao
by 17th, D trains still fastest, 3 G trains take 3:14 to 3:46 for the detour, second class 323 yuan

Nanchang-Zhengzhou: now fastest D296, 6:39, second class 280 yuan
by 17th, 3 G trains from 5:02 to 6:10, second class 551 yuan

Nanchang-Xian: now fastest T306, 15:34, hard seat 152 yuan 5 jiao
by 17th, G641, 8:33, second class 748 yuan

Nanchang-Beijing: now fastest Z68, 11:37, hard seat 173 yuan 5 jiao
by 17th, 2 G trains at 7:48 and 9:34, second class 806 yuan


----------



## flankerjun

*CRH2H,for lanzhou to Urumqi line.*


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Thanks for the information !! 
It is assumed (although do not think so) that these trains would be night to travel the 1,756 km from Lanzhou or 3,450 km from Beijing (put in Wikipedia that would travel in 12 hours at 288 km / h on average, but has since changed, although continue putting in German, also here: #*4455*). 

Note: I guess the previous post should be in CHINA | High Speed ​​Trainsets
...............................................
Gracias por la información!!
Se supone (aunque no me lo parece) que estos trenes iban a ser nocturnos para recorrer los 1.756 km desde Lanzhou o los 3.450 km desde Beijing (en la Wikipedia ponía que se recorrerían en 12 horas a 288 km/h de media, pero ya se ha cambiado, aunque lo siga poniendo en alemán y aquí).

Nota: supongo que el anterior post debería estar en CHINA | High Speed Trainsets


----------



## big-dog

kunming tiger said:


> What is the expected opening date of the Changsha to Gui Yang section of the line?


May 2015


----------



## big-dog

September 16

*Nanchang-Changsha HSR opens today *

Nanchang-Changsha HSR is part of Shanghai-Kunming HSR
Crossing Hunan and Jiangxi Provinces
342km, 7 stations, max speed: 350km/h



















(xinhuanet)


----------



## hhzz

*Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR,September 16th, 2014*

CRH2 test run in Xinjiang,Northwest of China.
1.








2.









-----
xinhuanet


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> CRH2 test run in Xinjiang,Northwest of China.


When is the Silk High Speed Railroad due to open for scheduled service?


----------



## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> When is the Silk High Speed Railroad due to open for scheduled service?


Urumqi-Hami: October 2014
Other sections: December 2014


----------



## Pansori

big-dog said:


> Urumqi-Hami: October 2014
> Other sections: December 2014


What is the actual service speed going to be? 300 or 250 km/h? It wasn't fully clarified so far.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> Urumqi-Hami: October 2014


Which specific day of next month?

On Old Silk Railway, Urumqi-Kumul is 553 km. Travel time is between 5:11 (T36) and 10:55 (7552).
Also, how is the progress of Lanzhou-Baoji high speed railway?


----------



## ilovecoffee

from china daily

train tickets reach record high as holidays near!!

last Friday 9.69 million tickets were sold on Friday, the most one day ever.

between Sept 9 and 12 an average of 8.3 million a day were sold also a record high!:bash:


----------



## Pansori

Gusiluz said:


> A question:
> If the maximum speed allowed on trains is 300 km / h, why are photos of the display to 305/307 km / h ?.
> Delays ?


They routinely go at 306-307, sometimes 310km/h even if no delays. We were discussing that previously and someone mentioned that the actual 'hard limit' is 315km/h. Not sure why it's officially 300km/h. Perhaps because it's a round number.


----------



## itfcfan

I maintain this map to keep track of Chinese HSR route development - I thought I'd share it. I know there are many other maps, but using an interactive map allows data (such as year of opening and design speed) to be stored against each line.
http://goo.gl/RnxEWp


----------



## flankerjun

itfcfan said:


> I maintain this map to keep track of Chinese HSR route development - I thought I'd share it. I know there are many other maps, but using an interactive map allows data (such as year of opening and design speed) to be stored against each line.
> http://goo.gl/RnxEWp


I would say that there are too manny wrong lines


----------



## itfcfan

flankerjun said:


> I would say that there are too manny wrong lines


I'm happy for people to point out the errors. Lines open that aren't open yet? Lines classified as HSR that aren't HSR? Missing lines?

The base of the map is the main long lines (Beijing - Shanghai, Beijing - Guangzhou, Harbin - Dalian, Ningbo - Shenzhen). The other lines are based on reports (I've tried to use more than Wikipedia, but in some places I've relied on Wikipedia for routing / design speed).

I've taken any line with a design speed of 200kph or above as my definition of a HSR line.

I've left off some lines which are duplicated by others (e.g. Beijing - Tianjin, Shanghai - Nanjing, etc). I've also left off some of the upgraded lines around Chengdu/Chongqing which are due to be superseded by the direct link in construction.


----------



## Gusiluz

Pansori said:


> They routinely go at 306-307, sometimes 310km/h even if no delays. We were discussing that previously and someone mentioned that the actual 'hard limit' is 315km/h. Not sure why it's officially 300km/h. Perhaps because it's a round number.


Thanks for the information !. On internet I can not find much on the 315 km / h. 

In April 2011, when the policy was changed speeds, in all media spoke of 300 km / h.

Puts Brakes on High-Speed Trains April 15, 2011
China slows down showcase bullet trains April 17, 2011
World's longest high-speed train to decelerate a bit April 15, 2011


----------



## flankerjun

itfcfan said:


> I'm happy for people to point out the errors. Lines open that aren't open yet? Lines classified as HSR that aren't HSR? Missing lines?
> 
> The base of the map is the main long lines (Beijing - Shanghai, Beijing - Guangzhou, Harbin - Dalian, Ningbo - Shenzhen). The other lines are based on reports (I've tried to use more than Wikipedia, but in some places I've relied on Wikipedia for routing / design speed).
> 
> I've taken any line with a design speed of 200kph or above as my definition of a HSR line.
> 
> I've left off some lines which are duplicated by others (e.g. Beijing - Tianjin, Shanghai - Nanjing, etc). I've also left off some of the upgraded lines around Chengdu/Chongqing which are due to be superseded by the direct link in construction.


missing lots of lines.for example,in northest of China,Beijing-Shenyang,Shenyang-Dandong,Dandong-Dalian,Harbin-Qiqihaer,Habin-Mudanjing,Harbin-Jiamusi are in construction,if you conclud lines that planned,well,there are tooooooo many lines.


----------



## itfcfan

flankerjun said:


> missing lots of lines.for example,in northest of China,Beijing-Shenyang,Shenyang-Dandong,Dandong-Dalian,Harbin-Qiqihaer,Habin-Mudanjing,Harbin-Jiamusi are in construction,if you conclud lines that planned,well,there are tooooooo many lines.


I've got Beijing - Chengde - Shenyang down as planned, but I've seen different reports as to whether construction has started. So many things are in planned (and it's difficult to determine which are concrete and which are more speculative) so I'm not including most of them, unless they're very close to construction.

I've tried to make sure I've got all lines in later stages of construction (i.e. due to open by the end of this year) - for other lines it's sometimes harder to determine the route the line is taking. I don't know the geography of northern / north-east China so well. I've travelled more in eastern & southern China.

Thanks for listing those lines - I'll try to find the routes/dates and add them.


----------



## flankerjun

itfcfan said:


> I've got Beijing - Chengde - Shenyang down as planned, but I've seen different reports as to whether construction has started. So many things are in planned (and it's difficult to determine which are concrete and which are more speculative) so I'm not including most of them, unless they're very close to construction.
> 
> I've tried to make sure I've got all lines in later stages of construction (i.e. due to open by the end of this year) - for other lines it's sometimes harder to determine the route the line is taking. I don't know the geography of northern / north-east China so well. I've travelled more in eastern & southern China.
> 
> Thanks for listing those lines - I'll try to find the routes/dates and add them.


you can find the construction pictures of BJ-SY,i post them several days ago.and Harbin Qiqihaer will open this year,and Shenyang-Dangdong,Dangdong-Dalian are also nearly complete,and will open in 2015.


itfcfan said:


> I've got Beijing - Chengde - Shenyang down as planned, but I've seen different reports as to whether construction has started. So many things are in planned (and it's difficult to determine which are concrete and which are more speculative) so I'm not including most of them, unless they're very close to construction.
> 
> I've tried to make sure I've got all lines in later stages of construction (i.e. due to open by the end of this year) - for other lines it's sometimes harder to determine the route the line is taking. I don't know the geography of northern / north-east China so well. I've travelled more in eastern & southern China.
> 
> Thanks for listing those lines - I'll try to find the routes/dates and add them.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> and Harbin Qiqihaer will open this year


Is it know in which month?


----------



## Pansori

Gusiluz said:


> Thanks for the information !. On internet I can not find much on the 315 km / h.
> 
> In April 2011, when the policy was changed speeds, in all media spoke of 300 km / h.
> 
> Puts Brakes on High-Speed Trains April 15, 2011
> China slows down showcase bullet trains April 17, 2011
> World's longest high-speed train to decelerate a bit April 15, 2011


Even before the speed reduction it actually wasn't 350km/h. Trains routinely went 355km/h or even faster. I think they usually leave a 'buffer' between declared maximum speed and the actual hard limit which can be achieved without setting off emergency alarms.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ On trains then, except CRH380A briefly, clearly put 350 km/h. 

A greeting and thanks


----------



## flankerjun

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is it know in which month?


Official statement is that test begin on 20 Otc,and open end of Dec,but i think around the Chinese New Year is more realistic


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> Official statement is that test begin on 20 Otc,and open end of Dec,but i think around the Chinese New Year is more realistic


Meaning that various high speed railways are due to open in December 2014:

Lanzhou-Hami
Hangzhou-Nanchang
Harbin-Qiqihar, sometime in end
Guangzhou-Wuzhou, on 30th
Guangzhou-Guiyang, on 30th
Which other high speed railways shall open in December 2014, and on which specific days?

Also, Hami-Urumqi high speed railway shall open in October 2014. That month comes in three days. On which specific day of October 2014 shall Hami-Urumqi high speed railway open for scheduled service?


----------



## China Hand

flankerjun said:


> missing lots of lines.for example,in northest of China,Beijing-Shenyang,Shenyang-Dandong,Dandong-Dalian,Harbin-Qiqihaer,Habin-Mudanjing,Harbin-Jiamusi are in construction,if you conclud lines that planned,well,there are tooooooo many lines.


Yeah it is getting out of control in a good way. Future plans appear to include running ""X"' lines between NS and EW lines in many areas, connecting most major cities in a variety of ways. Xian-Chongqing, Xian-Wuhan, Chongqing-Zhengzhou, and so on.


----------



## GZ-zhang

chornedsnorkack said:


> Chengdu-Daye and Chengdu-Pengzhou high speed railways also run D trains. Wuhan-Xianning, Wuhan-Huangshi, Wuhan-Huanggang and Shanghai-Jinshanwei high speed railways run C trains. What is different about Chengdu high speed railway that it has D not C trains, and shall C trains be introduced on Guangzhou-Zhuhai high speed railway?


I have no idea about the intercity rail systems in Sichuan or Hubei, sorry. 

As for the Guangzhou-Zhuhai line, eventually the trains may not be either D or C because they will not be operated by a national rail bureau, but by the PRD intercity rail company. A new ticketing system will be implemented, separate to national rail, with a high level of automated fare collection (IC cards), and the system will be operated more like a metro.

There will be two types of train service on the line - express and commuter. Express trains will travel at 200 km/h, stopping only at Guangzhou South, Zhongshan and Zhuhai. The journey time will be shorter than it is currently, passengers will be assigned a specific train/seat and the fares will be fairly high. This service will be comparable to national HSR.

Commuter trains will be frequent, travel at 160 km/h, stop at all stations like a metro and passengers will not be allocated a specific train/seat. Most passengers will use IC card to pay the fare and transfers will be possible between lines without buying separate tickets. The fare will be lower than the express train, even for exactly the same journey. All PRD intercity rail lines will have commuter service, but not all will have express service. 

This will be a totally new system of operation for China and these high-specification local lines are the next generation in commuter rail. 

Here is the route map for PRD intercity rail (phase 1) 2020:



PS: if a moderator can help me fix this map to its normal size, it would be much appreciated, thanks!


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Is Guangfojiangzhu line the one that is not yet under construction?


----------



## GZ-zhang

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is Guangfojiangzhu line the one that is not yet under construction?


Yes, that line is the only one that has not yet commenced construction in some form. However, the western section of Guangfo circle line between Foshan West and Guangzhou North has also not yet commenced construction. Nor have the inner sections of lines to Guangzhou and Guangzhou East which are actually upgrades of existing lines and will be completed as part of the station expansion projects.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

GZ-zhang said:


> Nor have the inner sections of lines to Guangzhou and Guangzhou East which are actually upgrades of existing lines and will be completed as part of the station expansion projects.


How many tracks now exist between Guangzhou East and Xintang, and how many will exist after upgrade?


----------



## GZ-zhang

chornedsnorkack said:


> How many tracks now exist between Guangzhou East and Xintang, and how many will exist after upgrade?


Four tracks now (two fast, two slow) and still four after the upgrade of the two slow tracks. However, a new freight line will be constructed from Guangshen Railway (before Xintang) to Jingguang Railway north of Guangzhou to divert a lot of freight trains away. Plus speed will be increased and signals upgraded to allow intercity EMU trains to share tracks with regular passenger trains on this section.


----------



## augst6

Is the Guangzhou-Hangzhou PDL a thing yet?
I'm really suprised that there is no existing plan of connecting the two most populous metropolis in China. Considering Pearl River Delta which inhabits more than 100 million people, connecting it with Shanghai seems more demanded than Beijing and Shanghai. Or alternatively, would it be feasible if a shortcut line is made to connect Guangzhou to Shanghai via the existing Hangzhou-Changsha line? Maybe meeting at Nanchang? I can see that 4-5 hr commute between the two metropolis feasible and very attractive to business, competitive to aviation industry too.
Any thoughts?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

augst6 said:


> Is the Guangzhou-Hangzhou PDL a thing yet?
> I'm really suprised that there is no existing plan of connecting the two most populous metropolis in China. Considering Pearl River Delta which inhabits more than 100 million people, connecting it with Shanghai seems more demanded than Beijing and Shanghai.


It exists - but direct trains don´t. All trains Xiamen-Shenzhen terminate at Shenzhen North station. 
There are 8 daily G trains that travel from Guangzhou South to Chaoshan via Shenzhen North - but all of them terminate there, and none continue to Xiamen, Fuzhou, Hangzhou or Shanghai.


augst6 said:


> Or alternatively, would it be feasible if a shortcut line is made to connect Guangzhou to Shanghai via the existing Hangzhou-Changsha line? Maybe meeting at Nanchang? I can see that 4-5 hr commute between the two metropolis feasible and very attractive to business, competitive to aviation industry too.
> Any thoughts?


Hangzhou-Changsha line does not exist. A slow speed railway does go Hangzhou-Zhuzhou. But it takes a minimum of 7:39 (D105). Add Shanghai-Hangzhou (a minimum 45 minutes to Hangzhou East, 1:11 to Hangzhou) and Zhuzhou-Guangzhou (at least 2:19) - and you are speaking of 11 hours, not 4-5.


----------



## GZ-zhang

chornedsnorkack said:


> Hangzhou-Changsha line does not exist. A slow speed railway does go Hangzhou-Zhuzhou. But it takes a minimum of 7:39 (D105). Add Shanghai-Hangzhou (a minimum 45 minutes to Hangzhou East, 1:11 to Hangzhou) and Zhuzhou-Guangzhou (at least 2:19) - and you are speaking of 11 hours, not 4-5.


Later this year the Nanchang-Hangzhou HSR will open, which will allow high-speed service from Guangzhou to Shanghai/Hangzhou/Nanjing via the Guangzhou-Changsha and Changsha-Nanchang-Hangzhou lines. These are both fast PDL lines so the journey time will be fairly fast despite the non-direct route.



augst6 said:


> Or alternatively, would it be feasible if a shortcut line is made to connect Guangzhou to Shanghai via the existing Hangzhou-Changsha line? Maybe meeting at Nanchang?


A new high-speed line from Shenzhen North to Nanchang via Ganzhou is expected to begin construction in 2015 for completion in 2020. This line is planned to be a 350 km/h PDL and allow the journey time between the PRD and Shanghai/Hangzhou to be further reduced. 

At Huizhou East, this line will intersect with a new Guangzhou East-Shanwei HSR, which will allow direct trains from Guangzhou East to access the Shenzhen-Nanchang HSR line too, in addition to those that will join the Shenzhen-Xiamen line at Shanwei. Guangzhou East is being expanded to accommodate these HSR services.


----------



## kunming tiger

GZ-zhang said:


> Yes, that line is the only one that has not yet commenced construction in some form. However, the western section of Guangfo circle line between Foshan West and Guangzhou North has also not yet commenced construction. Nor have the inner sections of lines to Guangzhou and Guangzhou East which are actually upgrades of existing lines and will be completed as part of the station expansion projects.


Any idea as to when the project might commence?


----------



## kunming tiger

The Guangfojiangzhu project?


----------



## :jax:

I presume that is the light blue line going Guangzhou-Foshan-Jiangmen-Zhuhai Airport. 

That said I am fairly sure Zhuhai-Zhuhai airport hasn't started yet either, as the critical bridge Hengqin-airport has been somewhat delayed.


----------



## GZ-zhang

:jax: said:


> That said I am fairly sure Zhuhai-Zhuhai airport hasn't started yet either, as the critical bridge Hengqin-airport has been somewhat delayed.


The bridge you mention has been delayed, but the rest of the project phase 1 (Zhuhai-Changlong Park) is under construction since January 20th 2014. Phase 2 (Changlong Park-Zhuhai Airport) will commence construction before the end of the year.



kunming tiger said:


> Any idea as to when the project might commence?
> The Guangfojiangzhu project?


No, unfortunately that line has no construction schedule yet. It was supposed to be started before 2016 but was pushed back. At the same time the Guangzhou station expansion project was brought forward to allow intercity lines to serve the centre of Guangzhou. This was considered more important than the Guangfojiangzhu project, which may end up pushed into phase 2 of the PRD intercity network (completed after 2020).


----------



## chornedsnorkack

GZ-zhang said:


> Four tracks now (two fast, two slow) and still four after the upgrade of the two slow tracks. However, a new freight line will be constructed from Guangshen Railway (before Xintang) to Jingguang Railway north of Guangzhou to divert a lot of freight trains away.


What´s "before" Xintang? Is it the direction between Xintang and Nantang, or the direction between Xintang and Shapu?

Also, a lot of freight will be diverted - is that railway under construction?
Another thing: Yunlu station is supposed not to be for passenger service. Yet it was built in 1911. Was it not for passenger service in 1911 either?


----------



## GZ-zhang

chornedsnorkack said:


> What´s "before" Xintang? Is it the direction between Xintang and Nantang, or the direction between Xintang and Shapu?


The direction of Shapu, but the line will actually intersect with the Guangshen Railway at Shitan station.



chornedsnorkack said:


> Also, a lot of freight will be diverted - is that railway under construction?


No, not yet under construction. It has just received its final environmental impact report and a firm construction date will be set after some small changes are made to the plan. The period of construction will be 4 years for this line.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

I note that the stations of Suiguanshen railway from Guangzhou East to Xintang exist. Shipai and Jishan are both old stations on Kowloon-Canton railway.

I also note that two stations on Kowloon-Canton railway are NOT on Suiguanshen railway. Xiayuan and Nangang.
Now, the map shows that on the 27 km distance between Guangzhou and Guangzhou North, Guanqing Railway shall have 2 stations, namely Tangxi and Jianggao.
Do these 2 stations already exist on the Guangzhou-Shaoguan railway?


----------



## GZ-zhang

chornedsnorkack said:


> I note that the stations of Suiguanshen railway from Guangzhou East to Xintang exist. Shipai and Jishan are both old stations on Kowloon-Canton railway.


Yes, that branch of the Suiguanshen line is the old Kowloon-Canton railway tracks III and IV (slow tracks), which are being upgraded. Those 2 stations will be re-constructed to allow intercity passenger service. The other stations will not be upgraded and intercity trains will not stop there.



chornedsnorkack said:


> Now, the map shows that on the 27 km distance between Guangzhou and Guangzhou North, Guanqing Railway shall have 2 stations, namely Tangxi and Jianggao.
> Do these 2 stations already exist on the Guangzhou-Shaoguan railway?


I think there is/was an old freight station called Tangxi in a similar location, but these 2 intercity stations will actually be new stations. That line will have new intercity tracks constructed parallel to the old tracks because the old lines are already saturated. So it needs new stations too.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

I see that Guangqin railway has a railway station named Qingyuan.
Now, on Guangzhou-Wuchang slow speed railway, the next station attested after Guangzhou North is Yuantan, 41 km after Guangzhou North. On Guangzhou-Wuhan high speed railway, the next station attested after Guangzhou North is Qingyuan, 36 km after Guangzhou North.

Is Qingyuan Station on Guanqin Line the same station where Guangzhou-Wuhan high speed railway stops?


----------



## GZ-zhang

chornedsnorkack said:


> I see that Guangqin railway has a railway station named Qingyuan.
> Now, on Guangzhou-Wuchang slow speed railway, the next station attested after Guangzhou North is Yuantan, 41 km after Guangzhou North. On Guangzhou-Wuhan high speed railway, the next station attested after Guangzhou North is Qingyuan, 36 km after Guangzhou North.
> 
> Is Qingyuan Station on Guanqin Line the same station where Guangzhou-Wuhan high speed railway stops?


No, it's a different station. The Guangzhou-Wuhan HSR Qingyuan station is quite far from Qingyuan itself and is not convenient for short-distance trips. The Guangzhou-Qingyuan intercity station is going to be close to the city centre.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

I´d expect the old Guangzhou-Shaoguan slow speed railway to have been built near existing city centres back in 1916, and city centres to have grown up around stations in the almost century since.
Does the Yuantan station on Guangzhou-Wuchang slow speed railway have a significant city centre around it?


----------



## GZ-zhang

chornedsnorkack said:


> I´d expect the old Guangzhou-Shaoguan slow speed railway to have been built near existing city centres back in 1916, and city centres to have grown up around stations in the almost century since.
> Does the Yuantan station on Guangzhou-Wuchang slow speed railway have a significant city centre around it?


Qingyuan city has some really rugged terrain closely surrounding it to the north. If the old line had gone into the city centre, they would have to either continue through the mountains (probably not possible or way too costly back then) or make a significant deviation backwards to go around them.

The Guangzhou-Wuhan HSR makes a bend to brush the outer eastern edge of Qingyuan before going around the terrain.

The Guangqing intercity line ends in Qingyuan so it can go right into the heart of the city centre and then end just before it reaches the mountains.

Looking on street view, Yuantan does have some urban areas around it too, but nowhere near the extent of Qingyuan city. I have never been there myself.


----------



## hhzz

*Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR*

Test runs have completed in Xinjiang section,which will officially open in October 2014.

1.CRH5 train in Hami,Xinjiang,Northwest of China.









2.CRH2 train in Hami









---------
xinhuanet


----------



## chornedsnorkack

GZ-zhang said:


> 1. Guangfozhao line (Guangzhou - Foshan - Zhaoqing)
> 
> The first of these to open will be the main section (Foshan - Zhaoqing) of the Guangfozhao line on 30th June, 2015.


There already is a railway line Guangzhou-Foshan-Zhaoqing, that is 109 km long and makes a stop at Sanshui. It continues from Zhaoqing to Maoming and beyond, and the 49 km section Guangzhou-Sanshui has been operating since 1903.
Does the Guangfozhao line that opens in 2015 follow the same route?


----------



## GZ-zhang

chornedsnorkack said:


> There already is a railway line Guangzhou-Foshan-Zhaoqing, that is 109 km long and makes a stop at Sanshui. It continues from Zhaoqing to Maoming and beyond, and the 49 km section Guangzhou-Sanshui has been operating since 1903.
> Does the Guangfozhao line that opens in 2015 follow the same route?


No, it's a totally different line. The route is similar in parts and actually crosses over the original line a few times, but it's all new HSR tracks and stations. The original line is a low-capacity single track diesel line. Some stations on the new intercity line have the same name as stations on the original line (like Sanshui and Zhaoqing) but they are totally different.

The second section (Guangzhou-Foshan West) will mostly follow the old route and Foshan station in the intercity system is the original, current Foshan station.

The Guangzhou-Nanning HSR will also stop in Zhaoqing, but that will be a different station too. This line will serve Sanshui South, which is less convenient than either the original or new intercity Sanshui stations.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

GZ-zhang said:


> Therefore, trains will temporarily terminate at Guangzhou South instead, using the Nanning-Guangzhou HSR line between Foshan and Guangzhou South.


Does it mean that the old (in service since 1903) Fatsan Station, now served by 2 slow speed railways (Canton-Fatsan, double track since opening in 1903, and Fatsan-Samsui, open since 1904 but still single track), shall in December also be the intersection station of 3 high speed railways: Foshan-Guangzhou South, Foshan-Wuzhou via Zhaoqing, and Foshan-Guilin via somewhere?


----------



## GZ-zhang

chornedsnorkack said:


> Does it mean that the old (in service since 1903) Fatsan Station, now served by 2 slow speed railways (Canton-Fatsan, double track since opening in 1903, and Fatsan-Samsui, open since 1904 but still single track), shall in December also be the intersection station of 3 high speed railways: Foshan-Guangzhou South, Foshan-Wuzhou via Zhaoqing, and Foshan-Guilin via somewhere?


No, Foshan West will be the main HSR hub and intersection of all those lines. It's a new station under construction and until it's completed, there will be no stop in Foshan and all trains will go direct to Guangzhou South. Only the intercity line will go to old Foshan station, and not until the Guangzhou station upgrade is complete, which will take several years. Also, the first phase of Guangfozhao intercity line will only open in 2015.

I should have said "using the Nanning-Guangzhou HSR line between Foshan WEST and Guangzhou South"


----------



## chornedsnorkack

So the state of lines this December shall be as follows:
Foshan West under construction
Guangzhou-Wuzhou and Guangzhou-Guilin high speed railways both open, passing through the under construction station nonstop?
Also I note that Foshan West to Guangzhou South shall also be served by Guangfo Circle Line and Foguan Line sometime.


----------



## saiho

chornedsnorkack said:


> So. What the hell is "world class" about a local rail system of that 61 km section between Guangzhou East and Shilong?


They can easily change that. The track, electrical infrastructure and freight rail platforms are there. All they have to do is realize it.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

saiho said:


> They can easily change that. The track, electrical infrastructure and freight rail platforms are there. All they have to do is realize it.


When they do it, getting homes and shops to actually be located and concentrated at the stations will not be as easy as building the stations.


----------



## FM 2258

chornedsnorkack said:


> Um, what´s "world class" about it?
> 
> Look at the Kowloon end of Kowloon-Canton railway.
> At the 34 km stretch of the double track railway Hung Hom-Lo Wu, I count 10 intermediate stations:
> 
> Mong Kok East
> Kowloon Tong
> Tai Wai
> Sha Tin
> Fo Tan
> University
> Tai Po Market
> Tai Wo
> Fanling
> Sheung Shui
> All of these receive frequent passenger train service to each other. The line also carries long distance passenger trains.
> Compare the Canton end.
> On the 39 km stretch Guangzhou-Xintang, I count just 6 stations:
> 
> Yunlu
> Guangzhou East
> Shipai
> Jishan
> Xiayuan
> Nangang
> But more importantly: find the passenger train schedules for any of these stations besides Guangzhou East!
> In fact, find the passenger train schedules for any station between Guangzhou East and Shilong! On the 30 km section between Xintang and Shilong, I find 4 more:
> 
> Shapu
> Xiancun
> Shitan
> Honghai
> So. What the hell is "world class" about a local rail system of that 61 km section between Guangzhou East and Shilong?


I said it is "going to be"....yet even when I visited back in 2010 my public transportation experience within the PRD was smooth and simple. Clean subways in Guangzhou, Shenzhen and Hong Kong, airports HKG and CAN had impressive terminals(SZX at the time was on par with maybe JFK), and being able to take a high speed train from Guangzhou East to Shenzhen Luohu was a really nice ride. Turbojet between Hong Kong and Macau was a really nice ride as well. 

With these new projects coming online I can't think of any other place in the world that will be as well connected as the PRD. Maybe places Japan. Whatever I saw back in 2010 public transport infrastructure-wise was better than I've seen here in the U.S. with our big cities New York, Los Angeles, Chicago and Houston. 

That section from Guangzhou East to Shilong is better than from say New York Grand Central Terminal to New Haven Union Station in my opinion. 

I guess in other words, I was impressed with what I saw 2010, seeing that they are doing even more call me super-impressed.

Edit: Sorry if my post seems rude, didn't mean to be. Just saying what I saw was awesome and what is coming is going to be more awesome!


----------



## Jordantimber

Shanghai South heaps better


----------



## Sopomon

FM 2258 said:


> I guess in other words, I was impressed with what I saw 2010, seeing that they are doing even more call me super-impressed.


The density just isn't there yet though. There are metro trains and HSR but in terms of commuter railways there are only a few dispersed lines running on old main lines.


----------



## big-dog

chornedsnorkack said:


> Meaning that various high speed railways are due to open in December 2014:
> 
> Lanzhou-Hami
> Hangzhou-Nanchang
> Harbin-Qiqihar, sometime in end
> Guangzhou-Wuzhou, on 30th
> *Guangzhou-Guiyang, on 30th*


*Guangzhou-Guiyang HSR starts speed test*

Joint testing was started on Guizhou section from September 18. A CRH380AJ will conduct the speed test from October 4th.


(@高铁见闻)


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> *Guangzhou-Guiyang HSR starts speed test*
> 
> Joint testing was started on Guizhou section from September 18. A CRH380AJ will conduct the speed test from October 4th.


What shall be the trip time Giangzhou South-Zhaoqing East by Guangzhou-Guiyang HSR and Guangzhou-Nanning HSR, respectively, this year?


----------



## Pansori

A bit of a silly question about train tickets. I am planning a journey on various CRH services later this month and want to make sure I get my planning right. Schedule will be very tight so cannot afford any errors.

Can I buy CRH train tickets for Shanghai-Beijing or Beijing-Guangzhou trip in a different location some days in advance? For example Shznehen North station?


----------



## urbanfan89

Yes, though a five yuan surcharge applies to tickets bought outside the city of origin.


----------



## Pansori

urbanfan89 said:


> Yes, though a five yuan surcharge applies to tickets bought outside the city of origin.


Thanks. That clarifies it all.


----------



## saiho

chornedsnorkack said:


> When they do it, getting homes and shops to actually be located and concentrated at the stations will not be as easy as building the stations.


Well they can build additional ones where the railway runs through the old village centers.


----------



## Grunnen

And there is the question if it is even desirable at all.

For example, the 光明城 HSR station in Shenzhen is located more or less at the border of the urban area and protected nature/countryside. So they can develop a high-density 'gateway area' directly around the station, which they are planning right now. But it would be a bad thing if pressure for more development near to the station leads to the loss of natural areas.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Grunnen said:


> And there is the question if it is even desirable at all.
> 
> For example, the 光明城 HSR station in Shenzhen is located more or less at the border of the urban area and protected nature/countryside. So they can develop a high-density 'gateway area' directly around the station, which they are planning right now. But it would be a bad thing if pressure for more development near to the station leads to the loss of natural areas.


If a HSR station is in a place that is undesirable to develop then it is undesirable situation in the first place. The station should in the first place have been built in a place that either already was developed, or else that was desirable to develop.

Which HSR station of Shenzhen are you referring to? Futian, Longhua, Guangmingcheng or Pingshan?


----------



## Grunnen

^^ Guangmingcheng. The area to the east of the high speed rail line is designated as green area in the urban land use plans, except for a little area directly near the station.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Grunnen said:


> ^^ Guangmingcheng. The area to the east of the high speed rail line is designated as green area in the urban land use plans, except for a little area directly near the station.


Is that area supposed to be wilderness protected from human impact, or a public park?


----------



## Grunnen

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is that area supposed to be wilderness protected from human impact, or a public park?


As far as I know, a small part of it should become a park, but it also has a lot of water reservoirs and some agricultural use which they want to preserve.

These are the locations of the HSR stations in Shenzhen:








Futian station is bulls-eye, I think. The other stations are all on the border of green areas. I'd guess you don't really want to have too much pressure for real estate development there. The Guangming station is also not connected to any existing or planned metro lines.

Much more useful for the metropolitan/regional transport, I think, is the metro line 11 which they are building right now (blue line in my map); which will function like an express metro with few stops and continue as one of the Pearl River Delta rapid transit lines. It passes straight through important places like the airport and the new Qianhai CBD - places where they really want much development to happen.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

There have been several maps of Shenzhen metro, but I have never seen any depicting both metro and distribution of built-up and green areas.

Also, where is the Guangzhou-Shenzhen slow speed railway on that map?


----------



## Grunnen

chornedsnorkack said:


> Also, where is the Guangzhou-Shenzhen slow speed railway on that map?


I have not marked it, but it is the thin black line coming from Hong Kong near the 'n' from 'Futian' and going straight to the north.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

The stations of Kowloon-Canton railway in Shenzhen are:
Shenzhen
Sungang (3 km)
Shenzhen East (8 km)
Pinghu (20 km)
That´s all. Shigu (28 km) is over the border in Dongguan.
Where is the intersection of Guangzhou-Shenzhen slow speed and Shenzhen-Xiamen high speed railways?


----------



## Grunnen

Ok, I have now also painted the Kowloon-Canton Railway on the map. The station Sungang is only freight; Pinghu does not have any passenger trains anymore but I have made a dot on the map anyways.

Shenzhen East, by the way, is only used as a starting point for some night trains. The rapid trains to Guangzhou start at Luohu and don't stop anywhere else within Shenzhen.


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## chornedsnorkack

Note that a major long-distance railway in Shenzhen is just 75 km/h top speed, single track and unelectrified.

Is there any prospect to upgrade Pinghu-Shenzhen West railway? And where is Shenzhen West station relative to Qianhai central business district?


----------



## Pansori

Guys is it reasonable to expect to get a seat (either 2nd or 1st class) on the 7:00a.m. D2282 Shenzhen North-Shanghai Honqiao train while booking 2 days in advance? I'm going to take this train and just wonder if 2 days is enough for the booking. Or should I not worry?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> Guys is it reasonable to expect to get a seat (either 2nd or 1st class) on the 7:00a.m. D2282 Shenzhen North-Shanghai Honqiao train while booking 2 days in advance?


Right now, I see that for 9th, 1st class is sold out and 2nd available.


----------



## GZ-zhang

chornedsnorkack said:


> Note that a major long-distance railway in Shenzhen is just 75 km/h top speed, single track and unelectrified.
> 
> Is there any prospect to upgrade Pinghu-Shenzhen West railway?


Yes, in the latest version of the Shenzhen railway development plan, it was decided that the Pinghu-Shenzhen West line will be made into a double-track, electrified railway, which will become part of the PRD intercity rail network. That section will form part of a longer line which begins in Huizhou city centre then via Chenjiang, Longgang district (Shenzhen), Pinghu, Shenzhen North, Qianhai Bay and eventually through a tunnel across the PRD to Zhuhai. The Huizhou section has 8 stations in the early plan but Shenzhen stations are not yet determined, only that there will be 7-8 of them including:

1. interchange with the Humen-Longgang intercity line in Longgang district 
2. interchange with Metro line 3 and express metro line 14 at Longcheng Square
3. interchange with Guangshen Railway at Pinghu
4. interchange with HSR, metro line 4 and metro line 5 at Shenzhen North
5. Qianhai Bay or Shenzhen West, which is located in Qianhai Bay area. Qianhai Bay will become a major development zone with an integrated major transport hub.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

GZ-zhang said:


> but Shenzhen stations are not yet determined, only that there will be 7-8 of them including:
> 
> 1. interchange with the Humen-Longgang intercity line in Longgang district
> 2. interchange with Metro line 3 and express metro line 14 at Longcheng Square
> 3. interchange with Guangshen Railway at Pinghu
> 4. interchange with HSR, metro line 4 and metro line 5 at Shenzhen North
> 5. Qianhai Bay or Shenzhen West, which is located in Qianhai Bay area. Qianhai Bay will become a major development zone with an integrated major transport hub.


The Shenzhen stations now are:
that 3) Pinghu
4) Mugu (3)
5) Bantian (17)
a planned Tanglang Station
6) Xili (28)
7) Shenzhen West (35)
then branches to
Mawan (40,4)
Shekou West (41,1)

So I am curious about that 4). Does the Pinghu-Shekou railway go through the Shenzhen North high speed railway station?

Also, Pinghu Station already is in the middle of four railways. Kowloon-Canton railway goes through in two directions, Pinghu-Shekou railway, but also Pinghu-Yantian railway. So will a fifth railway branch be built Pinghu-Huizhou?
Also, how many passenger station does or should Pinghu-Yantian railway have?


----------



## GZ-zhang

chornedsnorkack said:


> So I am curious about that 4). Does the Pinghu-Shekou railway go through the Shenzhen North high speed railway station?


It passes through a tunnel directly beneath the station building, at right angles to the HSR tracks above. There is currently no platform/station there for that line but space is reserved to construct an underground platform for the above mentioned intercity rail project.



chornedsnorkack said:


> Also, Pinghu Station already is in the middle of four railways. Kowloon-Canton railway goes through in two directions, Pinghu-Shekou railway, but also Pinghu-Yantian railway. So will a fifth railway branch be built Pinghu-Huizhou?


Yes, an additional line will be built from Pinghu to Huizhou.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Should a new station be built on Kowloon-Canton low speed railway and Shenzhen-Xiamen high speed railway on their crossing, between Shenzhen East and Pinghu on Kowloon-Canton low speed railway and between Shenzhen North and Pingshan on Shenzhen-Xiamen high speed railway? What is the place now like?


----------



## GZ-zhang

chornedsnorkack said:


> Should a new station be built on Kowloon-Canton low speed railway and Shenzhen-Xiamen high speed railway on their crossing, between Shenzhen East and Pinghu on Kowloon-Canton low speed railway and between Shenzhen North and Pingshan on Shenzhen-Xiamen high speed railway? What is the place now like?


I like the idea, but I have not heard about any plans to implement it. It seems a logical thing to have an interchange there, so maybe it will happen some time.

At the intersection currently, the Shenzhen-Xiamen HSR is elevated fairly high on a viaduct which passes over the Kowloon-Canton railway (which is at ground level). There is a major expressway about 100 m to the north of the intersection (parallel to the HSR and also elevated), but not much else in the immediate area. Just waste land.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Concerning that Guangzhou-Zhaoqing high speed railway: it is the longest quadruple track high speed railway in China!

Beijing-Tianjin has 2 parallel high speed double track railways, namely Beijing-Tianjin and Beijing-Shanghai railway, but these are separate several kilometres away, going to Tianjin and Tianjin South respectively. Shanghai-Nanjing has a quadruple track railway only for 50 km section Hongqiao-Kunshan South. For Kunshan-Nanjing section, the Shanghai-Nanjing high speed railway and Shanghai-Beijing high speed railway Shanghai-Nanjing section again diverge by several kilometres.

So the around 110 km section Guangzhou-Zhaoqing will be the longest four track high speed railway on the same route. Correct?


----------



## GZ-zhang

chornedsnorkack said:


> Concerning that Guangzhou-Zhaoqing high speed railway: it is the longest quadruple track high speed railway in China!
> 
> Beijing-Tianjin has 2 parallel high speed double track railways, namely Beijing-Tianjin and Beijing-Shanghai railway, but these are separate several kilometres away, going to Tianjin and Tianjin South respectively. Shanghai-Nanjing has a quadruple track railway only for 50 km section Hongqiao-Kunshan South. For Kunshan-Nanjing section, the Shanghai-Nanjing high speed railway and Shanghai-Beijing high speed railway Shanghai-Nanjing section again diverge by several kilometres.
> 
> So the around 110 km section Guangzhou-Zhaoqing will be the longest four track high speed railway on the same route. Correct?


I don't think it will be as far as 110 km from Guangzhou South to Zhaoqing East, but should be more than the 50 km section in Shanghai. Zhaoqing East is about 20-30 km away from the city centre of Zhaoqing.

The PRD intercity Guangfozhao line will provide interchange with HSR at Zhaoqing East so passengers can reach the city centre easily by changing trains. 

Also, the first 15 km from Guangzhou South will be 6 HSR tracks because the HSR to Wuhan, Nanning and Guiyang are all directly beside each other!


----------



## chornedsnorkack

GZ-zhang said:


> Also, the first 15 km from Guangzhou South will be 6 HSR tracks because the HSR to Wuhan, Nanning and Guiyang are all directly beside each other!


Foshan West will be further from Guangzhou Station than the 22 km or so of Foshan Station. But what will be the distance Foshan West-Guangzhou South by 4 tracks of the HSR?


----------



## China Hand

Pansori said:


> Guys is it reasonable to expect to get a seat (either 2nd or 1st class) on the 7:00a.m. D2282 Shenzhen North-Shanghai Honqiao train while booking 2 days in advance? I'm going to take this train and just wonder if 2 days is enough for the booking. Or should I not worry?


2 days when? This week? Forget it.

You must plan far in advance for National Week. Most trains are completely sold out past the 10th, including SRO tickets.

Buy as far in advance as you can.


----------



## Pansori

China Hand said:


> 2 days when? This week? Forget it.
> 
> You must plan far in advance for National Week. Most trains are completely sold out past the 10th, including SRO tickets.
> 
> Buy as far in advance as you can.


28th-30th of this month.


----------



## foxmulder

How is this for the long term planning:


----------



## flankerjun

foxmulder said:


> How is this for the long term planning:


As far as I know,it is just a idea from a Chinese expert,and a freight line is more feasible.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> How is this for the long term planning:


Complicated geological conditions indeed! Under Fram Strait from Spitsbergen to Greenland, and then right over Greenland Ice Sheet!


----------



## flankerjun

*Shenyang-Dandong HSR*
this is the best autumn scence in north China.










HSR and Shenyang-Dandong highway


----------



## flankerjun

this is the Dandong Station,and on the other side of the river is North Korea.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

When does Shenyang-Dandong high speed railway open?

And how about Dandong-Pyongyang high speed railway?


----------



## flankerjun

chornedsnorkack said:


> When does Shenyang-Dandong high speed railway open?
> 
> And how about Dandong-Pyongyang high speed railway?


you can tell from the pictures that now is the construction of track,and the timetable is Aug 2015.for the Pyongyang,i think,impossile.


----------



## xeror

Myouzke said:


> Not really that confusing I mean Japan and South Korea does it too with romaji and romaja foreigners gets by fine with it.


Using pinyin, romaji and romaja is perfectly fine as long as they are consistent with the city name and do not concatenate with other words. BTW, Japanese railway station naming isn't any less confusing either.



FM 2258 said:


> I thought it would be easier for foreigners when asking locals for directions to the station.


Considering Mandarin is a tonal language it isn't easy at all to ask for directions to the station even with the pinyin. Best way would be using a map and body languages when you ask.


----------



## :jax:

Which is another reason for always using accents/tone marks in Pinyin. In this case the sign isn't Pinyin, but English "Wulumuqinan Railway Station", instead of "Wūlǔmùqínán zhàn". For that reason "Urumqi South Railway Station" might have been the better (English) sign. 

I would prefer a consistent Pinyin transcription rather than the more common mix of Pinyin and English on signs. That of course becomes more difficult if the original name isn't Standard Chinese (Mandarin). Speaking of which, is the name on top in Uyghur language or an Arabic-like transcription of the Chinese name?


----------



## kunming tiger

xeror said:


> Using pinyin, romaji and romaja is perfectly fine as long as they are consistent with the city name and do not concatenate with other words. BTW, Japanese railway station naming isn't any less confusing either.
> 
> 
> Considering Mandarin is a tonal language it isn't easy at all to ask for directions to the station even with the pinyin. Best way would be using a map and body languages when you ask.


 Just copy the name of the destination in Chinese onto your phone or whatever device your are using. Better still use a route finder or other apps. Download and install them on your mobile if need be. Wechat app might be useful for pin pointing your location and the location of your destination.


----------



## GZ-zhang

chornedsnorkack said:


> When in December Nanchang-Hangzhou high speed railway shall open, what shall be the trip time and ticket price Shenzhen-Shanghai via Changsha?





Pansori said:


> Will there be any G services between Shenzhen and Shanghai via the same new route?


The official timetable has still not been published, but according to the provisional schedule (subject to approval), there will be 4x daily ‘G’ trains from Guangzhou South to Shanghai Hongqiao via Changsha South. The fastest train will stop only at Changsha South, Nanchang West and Hangzhou East and complete the journey in 6 hr, 51 min. It looks like there will be no through trains from Shenzhen to Shanghai via Changsha initially, although this may change if the folks in Shenzhen complain enough!

The latest update for the Guiyang-Guangzhou and Nanning-Guangzhou lines is that both are still on track for opening by the end of this year. 

Provisionally, there will be 16x daily 'D' trains between Guangzhou and Nanning, with 10 ending at Nanning East, 2 continuing to Nanning Station and 4 continuing down the Guangxi coastal railway to Beihai. Additionally there will be 2x daily Guangzhou South-Liuzhou trains, not via Nanning. Initially, it looks like no trains will operate through to/from Shenzhen North to Nanning either.

For the Guangzhou-Guiyang line, there will be 10x daily trains from Guangzhou South-Guiyang North via Guilin West, and a further 10x daily trains from Guangzhou South-Guilin North, 3 of which operate through to/from Shenzhen North.

According to a spokesman, it is expected that a small number of trains will be added from Shenzhen to Guiyang and Nanning in the future, after traffic patterns have been analysed. The provisional schedule is a little disappointing for Shenzhen with very few through trains to the new lines. For Guangzhou South, it is good news, with over 50 additional daily departures. 

The Changsha South-Huaihua South section of line should also open in this timetable period, with Huaihua South-Guiyang North following later in May 2015. 

Also, all services on the Guangzhou-Zhuhai/Jiangmen line and all EMU services on the Guangshen Railway are expected to be changed to ‘C’ trains.

All of the above is subject to change until confirmation in the next week or so.


----------



## Pansori

^^
Thanks for that. Really informative. Really strange about lack of G services between Shenzhen and Shanghai though. Perhaps even unacceptable I would say.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

GZ-zhang said:


> The official timetable has still not been published, but according to the provisional schedule (subject to approval), there will be 4x daily ‘G’ trains from Guangzhou South to Shanghai Hongqiao via Changsha South. The fastest train will stop only at Changsha South, Nanchang West and Hangzhou East and complete the journey in 6 hr, 51 min. It looks like there will be no through trains from Shenzhen to Shanghai via Changsha initially,


As of the existing schedule:

Guangzhou South-Beijing 5 G trains daily
fastest G66, 8:00
from Shenzhen North 2 G trains daily
price from Guangzhou second class 862 yuan

Guangzhou South-Taiyuan 1 G train, G682, not from Shenzhen
price second class 853 yuan

Guangzhou South-Shijiazhuang 7 G trains daily
fastest G66, 6:50, stopping at Changsha South, Wuhan and Zhengzhou East
from Shenzhen North 3 G trains daily
price from Guangzhou second class 785 yuan 5 jiao

Guangzhou South-Xian 5 G trains daily
fastest G836, 9:09
from Shenzhen North 2 G trains daily
price from Guangzhou second class 813 yuan 5 jiao

Guangzhou South-Nanchang West 4 G trains daily
fastest G638, 4:12
from Shenzhen North 2 G trains daily
price from Guangzhou second class 472 yuan

Also, now that Huaihua South-Guiyang South has an opening date (May 2015), is anything known about Shenzhen North-Futian high speed railway?


----------



## GZ-zhang

chornedsnorkack said:


> is anything known about Shenzhen North-Futian high speed railway?


Unfortunately, no further information. I suspect the lack of news means that it is unlikely to open at the end of the year - early 2015 is more likely IMO.

The opening HSR schedule for Guiyang has now been approved and finalised. There will be 16x trains per day to begin with, including:

8x Guiyang North-Guangzhou South
2x Guiyang-Guangzhou South
2x Guiyang North-Nanning East via Guilin, Liuzhou [via Nanning-Hengyang HSR]
1x Guiyang North-Guilin North
1x Guiyang-Guilin North
1x Guiyang North-Duyun East
1x Guiyang-Duyun East

These do not include Guangzhou-Guilin trips, which do not serve Guiyang. I will post the full timetable after the Guangzhou-Guilin trips are confirmed.

All of the above trains will be ‘D’ trains operated by CRH2A. The fastest trip will be 4hr, 52 min from Guiyang North to Guangzhou South (D2809), including a 20 min stop at Guilin North. This train stops only at Guiyang, Guilin North, Zhaoqing East and Guangzhou South.

The line is designed for 300+ km/h operation and test trains have successfully operated at this speed. However, the initial operating speed will be 200 km/h. In the future, this is expected to be increased with the introduction of CRH380 series trains to the line.

I guess Guilin West station (on the main line) will not open on schedule because all trains are now listed as serving Guilin North only (with a 20 min stop!), which means they will have to leave the main line and probably reverse out again, accounting for the longer stoppage.

This will be the first HSR service to Guizhou province. Over the next few years, Guiyang will become a major HSR hub at the junction of 5 main lines (Guangzhou, Changsha, Kunming, Chengdu, Chongqing and Nanning). Accordingly, the new Guiyang North Station is a very large facility with over 30 HSR platforms.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Another bad news for 10th of December: High Speed South Manchuria Railway shall be slowed down again.
At present, the fastest trains Dalian-Harbin are G47 and G49, equally taking 3:30 with 2 stops (Shenyang and Changchun).
These shall vanish from 10th of December, 2014, after which the fastest train shall be D1301 taking 5:22.

What is an improvement is that in autumn 2013, Manchurian railway was slowed down on 1st of December, but in 2014, G trains continue till 9th of December, inclusive.


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## Gusiluz

^^ It will be this year's cold starts later


----------



## ilovecoffee

China approves more railway projects
English.news.cn 2014-11-26 15:50:28 More 
BEIJING, Nov. 26 (Xinhua) -- China has approved construction of four railway lines worth 66.24 billion yuan (10.79 billion U.S. dollars) as the government steps up infrastructure investment to boost growth.

It is the third time this month that China approved new railway projects.

The new railway lines will run in northeastern Jilin Province, southwestern Chongqing, Shaanxi Province and Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region, the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC) said in a statement on its website (www.ndrc.gov.cn).

By the end of October, the country had invested 590 billion yuan in railway projects, or 74 percent of the total earmarked for railways this year, Fei Zhirong, head of NDRC's infrastructure bureau, said at a press conference on Wednesday.

Fei said the 800 billion yuan railway investment target for this year will be achieved.

China plans to operate 7,000 kilometers of new railway lines this year. However, only about 32 percent was in use as of October, he said.

The country stepped up its pace of infrastructure investment in recent months to bolster the cooling economy, which is pressured by a slowdown in the manufacturing sector and an ongoing property downturn.

China's economy grew at its slowest pace since the global financial crisis in the third quarter and is likely to register its weakest annual growth rate in more than 10 years.

xinhua.net


----------



## chornedsnorkack

GZ-zhang said:


> The opening HSR schedule for Guiyang has now been approved and finalised. There will be 16x trains per day to begin with, including:
> 
> 8x Guiyang North-Guangzhou South
> 2x Guiyang-Guangzhou South


Thus 10 trains to Guangzhou, 6 elsewhere.


GZ-zhang said:


> All of the above trains will be ‘D’ trains operated by CRH2A. The fastest trip will be 4hr, 52 min from Guiyang North to Guangzhou South (D2809), including a 20 min stop at Guilin North. This train stops only at Guiyang, Guilin North, Zhaoqing East and Guangzhou South.


At present, there are 5x daily trains Guiyang-Guangzhou, all of them K.
The fastest trip is 19:55 (K912), the longest stop is 13 minutes in Hengyang. There are 10 stops between Guiyang and Guangzhou. Hard seat costs 189 yuan 5 jiao, lower soft sleeper 586 yuan 5 jiao.

What does a second class ticket Guiyang-Guangzhou on D2809 cost?


GZ-zhang said:


> This will be the first HSR service to Guizhou province. Over the next few years, Guiyang will become a major HSR hub at the junction of 5 main lines (Guangzhou, Changsha, Kunming, Chengdu, Chongqing and Nanning).


How is this possible??

Guangzhou - December 2014
Changsha - May 2015
Kunming - ?
Chengdu - ?
Chongqing - ?
Nanning -?
I count 6, not 5.
Also, what are the opening dates of these other 4 lines?


----------



## GZ-zhang

chornedsnorkack said:


> What does a second class ticket Guiyang-Guangzhou on D2809 cost?


The fares are not published yet; I will post again when they are known.



chornedsnorkack said:


> How is this possible??
> 
> Guangzhou - December 2014
> Changsha - May 2015
> Kunming - ?
> Chengdu - ?
> Chongqing - ?
> Nanning -?
> I count 6, not 5.
> Also, what are the opening dates of these other 4 lines?


Yes, I meant to say 6. However, the Nanning line will run parallel to the Guangzhou line between Guiyang North and Duyun East, and has not yet commenced construction.

Guiyang-Kunming is part of the Shanghai-Kunming PDL HSR corridor. It commenced construction in September 2010 and is expected to partly open in December 2015, although the whole line may only open in mid-2016.

Guiyang-Chongqing is a 200 km/h mixed-use HSR project, expected to open in October 2017.

Guiyang-Chengdu is a PDL extension of the Guangzhou-Guiyang line. It commenced construction in December 2013 and the expected opening date is December 2019. The long construction time is due to the difficult terrain.

The Nanning-Guiyang line has not yet started construction. It will run parallel to the Guangzhou-Guiyang line between Guiyang North and Duyun East, then via Hechi to Nanning. This will be a 300 km/h PDL also. It is planned to commence construction in mid-2015 and open in 2019, probably December.


----------



## kunming tiger

What do you mean exactly when you said the Guiyang to Kunming HSR might partially open by December 2015?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

ilovecoffee said:


> The new railway lines will run in northeastern Jilin Province, southwestern Chongqing, Shaanxi Province and Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region, the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC) said in a statement on its website (www.ndrc.gov.cn).


So what are the specific endpoints?


----------



## GZ-zhang

kunming tiger said:


> What do you mean exactly when you said the Guiyang to Kunming HSR might partially open by December 2015?


I mean a limited service on part of the line, specifically the Guizhou section. The last update I received was that most work on the Guizhou section, including the key Beipanjiang bridge, is expected to be completed by the end of 2015. However, other sections will probably only finish in early to mid-2016. Therefore the target for the whole line to enter service is mid-2016, although there may be a limited service on the Guizhou section before then. This info was current in June 2014, but may change.

Here is the opening timetable for Guangzhou South - Guiyang line. The opening date will likely be rolled forward to 26th December 2014:

[img=http://s27.postimg.org/gm2z02cwf/GYGZ.jpg]

[img=http://s27.postimg.org/4ixnci1u7/GZGY.jpg]

For this line, Chengdu railway bureau will provide 8x units, Nanning bureau will provide 2x units and Guangzhou bureau will provide 5x units. This does not include the G trips to/from Shenzhen, which will be operated by Guangzhou bureau CRH3C units, and interworked with Guangzhou-Shenzhen operations. The operating diagrams are below:

Chengdu bureau – 9x EMU / 24 trips
501/CRH2A
D3551 06:39 Guiyang North	09:08	Guilin North
D3552 09:30	Guilin North 11:50	Guiyang
D2809 12:10	Guiyang 17:02	Guangzhou South
D2818 18:00	Guangzhou South	22:58	Guiyang North

502/CRH2A
D2801 07:13	Guiyang North	12:54	Guangzhou South
D2810 13:30	Guangzhou South	18:39	Guiyang
D3553 19:00	Guiyang 21:04	Guilin North
D3554 21:25	Guilin North 23:51	Guiyang North

503/CRH2A
D2803 07:59	Guiyang North	13:30	Guangzhou South
D2812 14:00	Guangzhou South	19:23	Guiyang
D5403 19:45	Guiyang 20:40	Duyun East
D5404 21:00	Duyun East 22:02	Guiyang North

504/CRH2A
D5401 08:13	Guiyang North	09:24	Duyun East
D5402 09:40	Duyun East 10:27	Guiyang
D2807 10:50	Guiyang 16:31	Guangzhou South
D2816 16:55	Guangzhou South	22:47	Guiyang North

505/CRH2A
D3521 08:34	Guiyang North	14:02	Nanning East
D3524 14:45	Nanning East 20:11	Guiyang North

506/CRH2A
D2805 09:00	Guiyang North	14:47	Guangzhou South
D2814 15:10	Guangzhou South	21:01	Guiyang North

507/CRH2A
D2811 12:14	Guiyang North	17:50	Guangzhou South
D2820 18:20	Guangzhou South	23:31	Guiyang North

508/CRH2A
D2817 17:10	Guiyang North	22:56	Guangzhou South

509/CRH2A
D2802 07:00	Guangzhou South	12:29	Guiyang North

Nanning bureau – 2x EMU / 6 trips
701/CRH2A
D3522 07:50	Nanning East 13:19	Guiyang North
D3523 13:38	Guiyang North	19:15	Nanning East

702/CRH2A
D2831 08:00	Guilin North 10:42	Guangzhou South
D2836 11:05	Guangzhou South	13:44	Guilin North
D2839 14:05	Guilin North 16:55	Guangzhou South
D2842 17:15	Guangzhou South	20:06	Guilin North

Guangzhou bureau – 5x EMU / 16 trips
601
D2804 07:35	Guangzhou South	12:54	Guiyang North
D2813 13:20	Guiyang North	19:06	Guangzhou South
D2844 20:00	Guangzhou South	22:57	Guilin North

602
D2833 08:30	Guilin North 11:16	Guangzhou South
D2808 11:35	Guangzhou South	17:12	Guiyang North
D2819 17:38	Guiyang North	23:11	Guangzhou South

603
D2832 08:45	Guangzhou South	11:30	Guilin North
D2835 11:50	Guilin North 15:21	Guangzhou South
D2838 15:50	Guangzhou South	18:41	Guilin North
D2841 19:15	Guilin North 22:02	Guangzhou South

604
D2806 09:30	Guangzhou South	15:17	Guiyang North
D2815 15:49	Guiyang North	21:10	Guangzhou South

605
D2834 10:00	Guangzhou South	12:40	Guilin North
D2837 13:10	Guilin North 16:02	Guangzhou South
D2840 16:25	Guangzhou South	19:22	Guilin North
D2843 19:45	Guilin North 22:38	Guangzhou South


----------



## hhzz

*Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR,November 29th 2014*

Guiyang-Guangzhou high speed rail is expected to open on December 26th,2014.

It's the longest high speed railway to cross the karst mountainous area in South&South-west China.
There're 238 tunnels and 504 bridges along this line.

total length:857 km
designed speed:300 km/h
construction:2008~2014

1.A CRH2 test run in Rongjiang,Guizhou Province.









2.A bridge in Guilin,Guangxi









---------
xinhuanet


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Is the length of the railway Hangzhou-Nanchang known? It should open in ten days....


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ 591 km. Designed speed: 300 km/h.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ 591 km. Designed speed: 300 km/h.


With the 159 km section Hangzhou East - Shanghai Hongqiao, does that total to 750 km distance Nanchang West-Shanghai Hongqiao?


----------



## China Hand

NDRC is, as many suspected, ''filling in'' many of the gaps in the national map in the Eastern third of the country.

Inner Mongolia has lines to connect to Beijing, Datong and perhaps SW to Lanzhou
Chongqing has yet another line to the SE
Xian has a regional line in the direction of Chongqing
Zhengzhou has a line to the SW to connect with the Changsha-CQ line and perhaps the another line to Xian

Basically they are going to fill in the entire grid with boxs and then ''X'' braces in the boxes.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> China, in fact, has far better opportunities to implement more flexible fare system than any country in Europe. And it doesn't have to be extremes of any kind. It just makes better sense to introduce some flexibility for those who are able to plan their time.


The reason to discount the off-peak trains is obvious. If off-peak trains are now travelling empty but could be filled by discounted tickets then discounting off-peak tickets would allow more people to travel.

Of course, it is not clear it is the appropriate action. Would the train cover costs at discounted prices? Or should the empty off-peak trains be cancelled rather than discounted?

However, what is the real advantage in discounting tickets bought in advance?


----------



## Sunfuns

ccdk said:


> I thought so
> But I find HST tickets are very expensive in European countries, even with gov subsidies, and more expensive than budget airlines, is that a demotivating factor for people to opt for flights rather than HSTs?


Average incomes are still quite a bit higher than in Chinas as well. It is true however that budget airlines are often cheaper and they do take some of the more budget conscious customers. For key routes rail is faster though and more pleasant. Also deals for budget airlines need to be sought even more in advance than for trains and timing is often very inconvenient. Business travellers also tend not to use them. 

Anyway population density, distances and sheer numbers is nothing like in China so it's difficult to compare…


----------



## Sunfuns

Pansori said:


> Because European nations don't have a HSR network on even remotely comparable scale as China. *There isn't a unified EU-wise HSR network.* Only some individual countries built their networks (France and Spain most notably).


There isn't, but it's also not a unified country like China is. International traffic is important, but it's almost always just a fraction of a national one. People simply don't have as much reason to travel abroad for business or pleasure.


----------



## Sunfuns

chornedsnorkack said:


> Of course, it is not clear it is the appropriate action. Would the train cover costs at discounted prices? Or should the empty off-peak trains be cancelled rather than discounted?
> 
> However, what is the real advantage in discounting tickets bought in advance?


It's all part of a strategy to maximise profits by filling trains as much as possible. Even if they end up losing money on a particular ticket it's still better than an empty seat.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Sunfuns said:


> It's all part of a strategy to maximise profits by filling trains as much as possible. Even if they end up losing money on a particular ticket it's still better than an empty seat.


Yes, but a train that does not depart and does not lose energy, wear and tear, worker time, is better than a train that runs at a loss either because it is empty or because it is filled with discounted tickets.

Looking across the straits, a Standard Class ticket of THSR, Taipei-Zuoying
http://www5.thsrc.com.tw/en/ticket/tic_time_result.asp
costs 1630 T$, which at the exchange rate 0,1972 is about 321 yuan. For a 339 km trip. On mainland, a similar stretch is 342 km Changsha-Nanchang, whose price is second class 157 yuan, first class 264 yuan 5 jiao (and business class 496 yuan).


----------



## ccdk

From the July data I found, there is 101 pairs of trains run between BJ and SH on a daily basis, let's say 100, and suppose 1000 passengers per train for a 16-car train, that gives us 100,000 daily ridership. But from the news link I posted, the average daily ridership for 2014 is 294,000, give or take the number of passengers get on/off the train at stations between SH and BJ

Keep in mind that the news mentioned the peak daily ridership is at 30th September, 2014, at 416k on that day!!

So from this I would say, BJ SH line is almost at its full capacity and even flexible tickets wouldn't help much? How do you guys think? Have I miscalculated anything?


----------



## Sunfuns

chornedsnorkack said:


> Yes, but a train that does not depart and does not lose energy, wear and tear, worker time, is better than a train that runs at a loss either because it is empty or because it is filled with discounted tickets.


Yes, but it's a combination of full price and discounted tickets in any particular train. Target is for every train to make a profit even if every individual ticket does not. 

Let's look at a following imaginary example (don't argue with absolute numbers, they don't matter):

Train running costs from point A to B: 20,000 euros
Seats in the train: 400
Break even point for 100% occupancy: 50 euros/ticket

For simplicity reasons assume there is only one class and last minute ticket costs 70 euros. If you could sell 400 tickets for that price every day then there is no problem, you are making 8,000 euros in pure profit and laughing all they way to the bank. But let's now assume that the competition from buses and planes is tough and you could on average sell only 250 tickets at this price. That leaves you 2,500 in the red on every train. What to do now? One option is to raise the price above 80 euros so that you make a profit even with 250 passengers, but how many further passengers will abandon your train in favour of competing modes of travel (or staying home)? Most likely a better option is to offer discounted tickets. Let's say the same 250 full price passengers and another 100 paying only 30 euros (below 50 euro break even point!). Now you end up making a small profit again. 

Of course all this is a lot more complicated with various tickets types (flexible and not), business class (higher profit margin on them), peak and off-peak days etc. There needs to be a proper balance between discounted and full price tickets and so on.


----------



## ccdk

ccdk said:


> From the July data I found, there is 101 pairs of trains run between BJ and SH on a daily basis, let's say 100, and suppose 1000 passengers per train for a 16-car train, that gives us 100,000 daily ridership. But from the news link I posted, the average daily ridership for 2014 is 294,000, give or take the number of passengers get on/off the train at stations between SH and BJ
> 
> Keep in mind that the news mentioned the peak daily ridership is at 30th September, 2014, at 416k on that day!!
> 
> So from this I would say, BJ SH line is almost at its full capacity and even flexible tickets wouldn't help much? How do you guys think? Have I miscalculated anything?


And from my personal experience, I took the Shenyang-Changchun D train a couple of times, mostly after 8pm, I would say it's far from the peak hours, and it was 85-95% full. From that I would say, not only the trunk lines are in dire need of capacity expansion, but also regional lines.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

ccdk said:


> From the July data I found, there is 101 pairs of trains run between BJ and SH on a daily basis, let's say 100, and suppose 1000 passengers per train for a 16-car train, that gives us 100,000 daily ridership. But from the news link I posted, the average daily ridership for 2014 is 294,000,


Is it one way, or both directions?


----------



## sponge_bob

Question. 

China was supposed to open a tranche of 1000s of KMs of new HSR last week...on the 10th I think. 

Did the Lanzhou - Urumqi/Xinjiang Railway open on that date. I know it was being tested since the summer????? 

http://en.people.cn/n/2014/0605/c90882-8736950.html

It was announced as being imminent a few weeks back.

http://en.people.cn/business/n/2014/1125/c90778-8813384.html



> BEIJING, Nov. 24 -- High-speed train services will expand to China's western regions including Gansu, Guizhou and Qinghai provinces as well as the Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region starting from Dec. 10, the China Railway Corporation said on Monday.
> New high-speed links connecting Lanzhou-Urumqi, Jining-Baotou, and Guiyang-Guangzhou, will see bullet trains span less developed regions for the first time, the company said.


[EDIT] I since found out that Urumqi - Hami opened a few weeks back but the Hami - Lanzhou section including the tunnel @ 3500 Metres altitude has not opened yet. 

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2014-11/16/content_18923037.htm


----------



## xinxingren

*Chengdu Local "HSR" Lines*



xinxingren said:


> Are these all now officially "Intercity"?


I'll have to assume that Chengdu-Deyang-Mianyang is not, as it is part of Chengdu-Xi'an. The line appears complete to Mianyang with concrete track bed, ie. design speed 300+km/hr. At Mianyang the dead end of the tracks is merged with the standard rail just north of the station, presumably to allow access for test and maintenance. There are pillars in place for about 90% of the route Mianyang-Guangyuan. Some parts of this section are running on earth embankments. Again at Guangyuan there is provision for running the dead ends onto the old standard track. There are very few beams laid on this section yet, but beam factories are in production at Guangyuan and near Luomiaozhen, with beam laying machines starting work. 

North of Guangyuan there are pillars being constructed for crossing the Jialingjiang and there is a hole in the side of the hill that doesn't look as busy as I expected a tunnel in progress to look. My train was going to Baoji, so I didn't see any more...


----------



## xinxingren

__


----------



## xinxingren

ccdk said:


> With the missing pieces (Shijiazhuang-Jinan, Zhengzhou-Xuzhou) of the original plan (4 east-west lines, 4 north-south lines) close to completion, more capacity is definitely needed for the BJ-SH, BJ-GZ lines.


More capacity is needed all over the place. The fastest train now Beijing-Chengdu is T7. It has seven YZ hard seat coaches and these are full, full, full with wuzuo tickets being sold for most of the distance. Please come back a year after Xian-Chengdu HSR opens and tell me they are no longer selling 无座 tickets on T7.

For long distances there are still millions of Chinese who choose not, or can't afford, to fly or hsr. So we have trains like K546, previously Xi'an-Qiqiha'er, now running from Chengdu. Will this be withdrawn when the HSR opens? I think not.


----------



## big-dog

*Changsha-Huaihua HSR opened on December 16*

Location: Hunan Province, part of Shanghai-Kunming HSR
Length: 416km, 9 stations
Speed: 300km/h




(rednet)


----------



## Pansori

big-dog said:


> *Changsha-Huaihua HSR opened on December 16*
> 
> Location: Hunan Province, part of Shanghai-Kunming HSR
> Length: 416km, 9 stations
> Speed: 300km/h


Is this a 350km/h design line with 300km/h operational speed or is it the same case as Urumqi-Hami with actual speed of 200km/h? I always assumed the entire Shanghai-Kunming line will be a 350km/h one.


----------



## CrazySerb

So it looks like the very first Chinese-led "HSR" project in Europe will be in Serbia/Hungary, connecting the capitals of Belgrade & Budapest. :cheers:




> * Belgrade-Budapest high-speed rail ready in 2017*
> 
> 17 December 2014
> 
> Serbia reached an agreement Tuesday with China for the construction of a high speed railway between Belgrade and Budapest.
> 
> Serbian Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic and Chinese Minister of Transport of the People's Republic of China Yang Chuantang met at the summit of government officials from China and countries in Central and Eastern Europe.
> 
> A statement released Tuesday said that Vucic and Chuantang had agreed on the details of the project including the timetable for research which is to be completed by June 2015, as well as on the means to finance the project and on the date for completing the project which is set for June 2017. Negotiations for the project began on Vucic's visit to the People's Republic of China in September 2014.
> 
> The high-speed railway is to run on a double track for rolling stock that can travel at 124 miles per hour (200 kilometers per hour).
> 
> Chinese Prime Minister Li Keqiang is expected to hold talks with Vucic and his Hungarian counterpart Viktor Orban about high-speed train construction.
> 
> Sixteen nations were represented at the summit, including many of the former Yugoslav states, the Baltic countries and EU members Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic.
> 
> The initiative is part of Serbia's plan to become China's gateway to the Balkans and to Europe.
> 
> The summit was initiated three years ago in Budapest, and meetings were held in Warsaw in April 2012 and in Bucharest in November of last year.


http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/177318/belgrade-budapest-high-speed-rail-ready-in-2017.html


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> *Changsha-Huaihua HSR opened on December 16*
> 
> Location: Hunan Province, part of Shanghai-Kunming HSR
> Length: 416km, 9 stations


It is not to Huaihua - it goes through Huaihua South to some destination 88 km beyond Huaihua.

As for speed: most trains there are G trains, but a few D trains exist. Also there is one express train (Huaihua-Changsha) that covers 332 km in 1:18, suggesting that it does operate at 300 km/h.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Pansori said:


> Is this a 350km/h design line with 300km/h operational speed or is it the same case as Urumqi-Hami with actual speed of 200km/h? I always assumed the entire Shanghai-Kunming line will be a 350km/h one.



I also would like to know this. I thought it would be a 380 km/h designed line.


----------



## big-dog

Pansori said:


> Is this a 350km/h design line with 300km/h operational speed or is it the same case as Urumqi-Hami with actual speed of 200km/h? I always assumed the entire Shanghai-Kunming line will be a 350km/h one.


300km/h is the operational speed; The design speed is at least 350km/h.


----------



## Galactic

chornedsnorkack said:


> It is not to Huaihua - it goes through Huaihua South to some destination 88 km beyond Huaihua.


According to the Chinese Wikipedia article (http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/沪昆客运专线) that destination is Xinhuang West in Xinhuang Dong Autonomous County, Huaihua.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Huaihua-Shenzhen is served by 1 train daily (G6144), travel time 5:07.
Huaihua-Guangzhou has 2 trains daily, travel times 4:33 and 4:39, price second class 467 yuan 5 jiao, first class 760 yuan 5 jiao, VIP seat 890 yuan.
Huaihua-Nanchang has 4 trains daily, travel times 3:11 to 3:25, price second class 301 yuan 5 jiao, first class 507 yuan 5 jiao, business class seat 952 yuan.
Huaihua-Hangzhou has the same 4 trains daily via Nanchang, travel times 6:06 to 6:18, price second class 530 yuan, first class 893 yuan, business class seat 1674 yuan 5 jiao.
Huaihua-Shanghai has 3 trains daily, travel times 7:01 to 7:24, price second class 603 yuan, first class 1010 yuan, business class seat 1894 yuan.
Huaihua-Wuhan has 2 trains daily, travel times 3:08 and 3:27, price second class 318 yuan 5 jiao, first class 522 yuan 5 jiao, VIP seat 606 yuan 5 jiao, business class seat 1006 yuan 5 jiao.
Huaihua-Beijing has 1 train daily (G442), travel time 8:57, price second class 801 yuan 5 jiao, first class 1295 yuan, VIP seat 1525 yuan 5 jiao.
Huaihua-Jinan has 1 train daily (G286), travel time 9:07, price second class 669 yuan 5 jiao, first class 1062 yuan 5 jiao, business class 2098 yuan.

Total 8 G trains daily from Huiaihua through Changsha, of which 4 towards Hangzhou, 2 towards Guangzhou, 2 towards Wuhan.

Huaihua-Changsha has 17 G trains daily - the 8 through Changsha and 9 that terminate at Huaihua, travel times 1:18 to 1:46, price second class 152 yuan 5 jiao, first class 256 yuan 5 jiao, VIP seat 290 yuan, business class seat 481 yuan 5 jiao.
Also 1 D train Huaihua-Changsha, namely D7812, travel time 1:53, price second class 102 yuan 5 jiao, first class 123 yuan, business class 307 yuan 5 jiao.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

This link:
http://news.163.com/14/1220/01/ADSETUPQ00014Q4P.html
is supposed to be about high speed sleeper trains, but is all Chinese for me. 

Can anyone understand anything here?


----------



## augst6

chornedsnorkack said:


> This link:
> http://news.163.com/14/1220/01/ADSETUPQ00014Q4P.html
> is supposed to be about high speed sleeper trains, but is all Chinese for me.
> 
> Can anyone understand anything here?


A very rough translation. This is very poorly written and constructed, like most Chinese articles. Here it is:

Sleeper high speed trains from Guangzhou to Beijing and Shanghai available for sale today, 30 days advance booking.

The sleeper cabin has:
- Bed 10cm wider than normal train beds.
- Controllable air conditioner
- Individual LED TV
- Electric sockets (220V)
- Free dinner
- Hot water
- Reading light
- Hanger
- Slippers
- Earphones

However, there will be no WIFI, no twins room, nor private toilets.
From 1st Jan 2015 to 15th Mar, 8 night trains will be added between BJ-GZ/SZ, SH-GZ/SZ everyday . Max 30 days booking in advance.

Mon-Thur, Sat: Normal price
Fri, Sun: Weekend price
Holidays: Holidays price

BJ-GZ: 1780 upper deck, 2000
lower
BJ-SH: 1200, 1350
BJ-SZ: 1990, 2200
(I think this is the holidays price, not explicitly explained in context)

A car has 10 rooms, separated by sliding doors with a corridor in the middle. Each room hosts 4 people. The 8th car is the dining car, operating 24 hrs and provides free dinner, however, mainly serves cold food.

Attendants patrol the corridor
every 15 minutes throughout the night.

From 2nd Jan 2015, 8 pairs of sleeper trains will be added between Guangzhou S and Nanning E, Guilin N; Shenzhen N and Xiamen N, Jiuquan. But not high class soft sleeper.

Timetable for SZ-SH&BJ
(Train no.; Departure; Destination; Departure Time; Arrival Time)
D921 BJW-GZS 2000 0705
D922 GZS-BJW 2000 0708
D923 BJW-GZS 2005 0710
D924 GZS-BJW 2005 0713
D931/4 SHHQ-GZS 1956 0708
D933/2 GZS-SHHQ 1923 726
D935/8 SHHQ-GZS 2002 0718
D937/6 GZS-SHHQ 1930 0732


----------



## chornedsnorkack

augst6 said:


> Sleeper high speed trains from Guangzhou to Beijing and Shanghai available for sale today, 30 days advance booking.
> From 1st Jan 2015 to 15th Mar, 8 night trains will be added between BJ-GZ/SZ, SH-GZ/SZ everyday . Max 30 days booking in advance.
> 
> BJ-GZ: 1780 upper deck, 2000
> lower
> BJ-SH: 1200, 1350
> BJ-SZ: 1990, 2200
> (I think this is the holidays price, not explicitly explained in context)
> 
> Timetable for SZ-SH&BJ


Shall there be any additional sleeper trains Beijing-Shanghai then?


----------



## xinxingren

augst6 said:


> Timetable for SZ-SH&BJ
> (Train no.; Departure; Destination; Departure Time; Arrival Time)
> D921 BJW-GZS 2000 0705
> ...


All night sleepers to be D trains then? For comfort? safety?


----------



## xinxingren

Short snippet on last night's CCTV13 noting the opening December 20 of the ChengMianLe line, an awkward construction for the line from Leshan thru Chengdu East to Mianyang. Most trains start/finish at Chengdu East but a couple each day do the full length Emeishan - Jiangyou. Tickets went on sale Friday at Chengdu (central, now unofficially called north) for all C trains on this line. TV stated running speed is 200km/hr.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

There already are overnight D trains Beijing-Shanghai. D311, D313 and D321.
Trip time 11:42 to 11:53, ticket price second class seat 309 yuan, soft sleeper upper bunk 667 yuan, lower bunk 696 yuan.


----------



## FM 2258

^^ For some reason I expected the upper bunk to be more preferable. Interesting to see that the lower bunk costs a little more. I haven't been on one of these trains so maybe I'll notice the reason for the price difference when I finally ride on one.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

chornedsnorkack said:


> Huaihua-Shenzhen is served by 1 train daily (G6144), travel time 5:07.


Price second class 542 yuan, first class 860 yuan, VIP seat 1009 yuan 5 jiao.


----------



## :jax:

CrazySerb said:


> So it looks like the very first Chinese-led "HSR" project in Europe will be in Serbia/Hungary, connecting the capitals of Belgrade & Budapest. :cheers:


Reposted this in the EUROPE | Eurostar and Inter-country Railways thread, where it more properly belongs.


----------



## hhzz

*Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR open on December 26th 2014*

It is the longest high speed rail through karst mountains area in South &Southwest China.

length:857 km
top speed:250 km/h
travel time:4 hours and 9 minutes~5 hours and 35 minutes








-------
南宁铁路


The whole lines of Naning-Guangzhou and Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR will also open on December 26th 2014.


----------



## Silly_Walks

hhzz said:


> It is the longest high speed rail through karst mountains area in South &Southwest China.
> 
> length:857 km
> top speed:250 km/h
> travel time:4 hours and 9 minutes~5 hours and 35 minutes


Is this part of the Guangzhou-Chengdu line? Because I thought that would be built at 380 km/h standard.


----------



## Pansori

Silly_Walks said:


> Is this part of the Guangzhou-Chengdu line? Because I thought that would be built at 380 km/h standard.


Are you sure you're not mistaking anything?


----------



## flankerjun

Silly_Walks said:


> Is this part of the Guangzhou-Chengdu line? Because I thought that would be built at 380 km/h standard.


you are right,It is part of Chengdu-Guangzhou line,it is a typical standard in West China,with 300 or 350 standard but the top speed of 250.
Chengdu-Guiyang line has a radius of 7000m,Guiyang-guangzhou line is 5500m.


----------



## hmmwv

Guiyang-Guangzhou is a line with infrastructure designed to be 300km/h ready, but right now both designed and operational speed are 250km/h. Upgrade to 300km/h is very easy though.


----------



## flankerjun

*From weibo,new CRH1A,or a mini version of CRH380D*


----------



## hhzz

*China extends high speed rail network,December 26th 2014*

There're three high speed rails open today.

1.*Lanzhou-Urumqi (1776km)*
This's the first high speed rail on Qinghai-Tibet Plateau,and also the highest one in the world.








---*gansudaily*

2.*Nanning-Guangzhou (577km)*








---*Southcn.com*

3.*Guiyang-Guangzhou (857km)*
This's the first high speed rail through karst mountains area.








---*南宁铁路*


----------



## Pansori

hmmwv said:


> Guiyang-Guangzhou is a line with infrastructure designed to be 300km/h ready, but right now both designed and operational speed are 250km/h. Upgrade to 300km/h is very easy though.


Is commercial service going to be 250km/h or 200km/h?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hhzz said:


> There're three high speed rails open today.
> 
> 1.*Lanzhou-Urumqi (1776km)*
> This's the first high speed rail on Qinghai-Tibet Plateau,and also the highest one in the world.


2 high speed trains daily. Trip time 11:54 and 11:58. Ticket price second class 548 yuan 5 jiao, first class 658 yuan. Also 15 slow speed trains daily, of which the fastest is Z105, trip time 16:03, price hard seat 206 yuan, hard sleeper 377 yuan, soft sleeper 582 yuan.


----------



## FM 2258

Pansori said:


> Is commercial service going to be 250km/h or 200km/h?


After all this time on the forum I'm still royally confused about the speed of D trains...200 or 250km/h? 

All G trains have an official limit of 300km/h so that's easier to remember.


----------



## Pansori

FM 2258 said:


> After all this time on the forum I'm still royally confused about the speed of D trains...200 or 250km/h?
> 
> All G trains have an official limit of 300km/h so that's easier to remember.


D trains most commonly go at 200km/h. Some D trains go at 160km/h (e.g. Shenzhen-Guangzhou on Guangshen Railway). However on 350km/h lines (e.g. Ningbo-Hangzhou or Hangzhou-Shanghai) D trains may go at 250km/h. 

So technically the limit is 250km/h and they do go at this speed on some lines but usually they stick to 200km/h.

Or so I witnessed during my travels.

The setting of speed limits for D trains is indeed a bit of a mystery to me though.

Take the Coastal HSR (Shenzhen-Ningbo-Hangzhou) for example. The Shenzhen-Ningbo stretch is designed for 250km/h commercial operation (or so says the data on Wikipedia). But the D train I was taking peaked at 204km/h.

However between Ningbo and Hangzhou (which is designed for 350km/h) it sped up to 250km/h.

Why wouldn't it go 250km/h all the way from Shenzhen to Hangzhou? Does this have to do with technical specs or is purely a matter of policy? If it's the latter why does it go at 250km/h specifically on the 350km/h stretch and not on any part of the 250km/h stretch? In theory it shouldn't make much difference where to go at 250km/h because the entire line is suitable for this speed and not just the 350km/h stretch.


----------



## hmmwv

Pansori said:


> Is commercial service going to be 250km/h or 200km/h?


250km/h, this line reflects the new operational speed after the speed reduction of 2011, so both it's designed and operational speed are 250km/h. The fastest train IIRC takes a little over four hours to cover the ~850km distance, therefore it confirms the 250km/h operating speed.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

There is now a train Shanghai-Nanning. G1501, travel time 11:34. Departs 10:06, arrives 21:40. Price second class 767 yuan 5 jiao, first class 1178 yuan 5 jiao, business class 2378 yuan.


----------



## hhzz

hmmwv said:


> 250km/h, this line reflects the new operational speed after the speed reduction of 2011, so both it's designed and operational speed are 250km/h. The fastest train IIRC takes a little over four hours to cover the ~850km distance, therefore it confirms the 250km/h operating speed.


No,Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR is a passenger dedicated line uses ballastless tracks,with a designed speed of 300km/h.And the operational speed is 250km/h,so the D trains on this line are faster than many D trains on other lines,such as Shenzhen-Xiamen,Nanning-Guangzhou.


----------



## hhzz

*Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR*

1.a high speed train runs on the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau.








2.








---------
xinhuanet


----------



## hmmwv

hhzz said:


> No,Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR is a passenger dedicated line uses ballastless tracks,with a designed speed of 300km/h.And the operational speed is 250km/h,so the D trains on this line are faster than many D trains on other lines,such as Shenzhen-Xiamen,Nanning-Guangzhou.


That's incorrect, the line's current designed speed is 250km/h, with infrastructures in place for future upgrades to 300km/h. 

http://www.chinanews.com/sh/2014/09-30/6647697.shtml


> 贵广铁路是我国西南地区第一条山区高速铁路，也是广西第一条采用无砟轨道的高铁线路，线路运营速度为250公里/小时，预留300公里/小时提速条件。


----------



## hhzz

hmmwv said:


> That's incorrect, the line's current *designed speed is 250km/h*, with infrastructures in place for future upgrades to 300km/h.
> 
> http://www.chinanews.com/sh/2014/09-30/6647697.shtml





hmmwv said:


> 贵广铁路是我国西南地区第一条山区高速铁路，也是广西第一条采用无砟轨道的高铁线路，线路*运营速度为250公里/小时*，预留300公里/小时提速条件。


250km/h is operational speed not designed speed.

For example,the designed speed of Beijing-Guangzhou HSR is 350km/h,but the operational speed is 300km/h,they're not the same.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

From 2nd of January, 2015, the 2 nightly D trains Shanghai-Guangzhou shall be D931 (leaves 19:56, trip time 11:12, arrives 7:08) and D935 (leaves 20:02, trip time 11:16, arrives 7:18). Ticket price for second class seat 525 yuan 5 jiao. For comparison, fastest slow train takes 16:03, and daily G trains take 6:51 to 8:35.


----------



## Pansori

hhzz said:


> 250km/h is operational speed not designed speed.
> 
> For example,the designed speed of Beijing-Guangzhou HSR is 350km/h,but the operational speed is 300km/h,they're not the same.


Are you saying trains can go 300km/h there just as they can go 350km/h (and they did before July 2011) on Wuhan-Guangzhou line? Or is it a case where core infrastructure (such as tracks) is suited for 300km/h but there are other technical limitations such as signalling?

Those would be two different things. In the first case we could say it's a 300km/h line even if speed is reduced to 250km/h for political or economic reasons while in the second case it would not be 300km/h line because trains cannot actually go at 300km/h for technical reasons.

Which one is it?


----------



## :jax:

The distinction is important for future considerations, but in my view a 300 km/h line is a line with trains running at 300 km/h on them, not a line capable of having trains running at that speed. The reasons why there would be no such trains is less interesting.

(Personally I'd prefer lines measured in something like maximum average speed on the line segment, but usually only top speed is reported, even if that would only be on a small part of the journey.)


----------



## flankerjun

Pansori said:


> Are you saying trains can go 300km/h there just as they can go 350km/h (and they did before July 2011) on Wuhan-Guangzhou line? Or is it a case where core infrastructure (such as tracks) is suited for 300km/h but there are other technical limitations such as signalling?
> 
> Those would be two different things. In the first case we could say it's a 300km/h line even if speed is reduced to 250km/h for political or economic reasons while in the second case it would not be 300km/h line because trains cannot actually go at 300km/h for technical reasons.
> 
> Which one is it?


the first one.it is a truly 300km/h line,neither 350 or 250.


----------



## Pansori

:jax: said:


> The distinction is important for future considerations, but in my view a 300 km/h line is a line with trains running at 300 km/h on them, not a line capable of having trains running at that speed. The reasons why there would be no such trains is less interesting.
> 
> (Personally I'd prefer lines measured in something like maximum average speed on the line segment, but usually only top speed is reported, even if that would only be on a small part of the journey.)


We're talking of technical standards there. Actual running speed is important but it's a different measurement.


----------



## foxmulder

hhzz said:


> There're three high speed rails open today.
> 
> 1.*Lanzhou-Urumqi (1776km)*
> This's the first high speed rail on Qinghai-Tibet Plateau,and also the highest one in the world.
> 
> ---*gansudaily*
> 
> 2.*Nanning-Guangzhou (577km)*
> 
> 3.*Guiyang-Guangzhou (857km)*
> This's the first high speed rail through karst mountains area.
> 
> ---*南宁铁路*



Just to put it in perspective, the total length of these three lines, 3210km, would make them second largest high speed network on the World. Longer than what Spain or Japan has. Nice news.


----------



## Pansori

flankerjun said:


> the first one.it is a truly 300km/h line,neither 350 or 250.


Thanks. This is precisely what I wanted to know.

What about Lanzhou-Urumqi? It was meant to be a 300km/h line too wasn't it?


----------



## binhai

What happened to Futian Station? Seems to be very delayed. Same with Yujiapu Station.


----------



## 孟天宝

Found this on Xinhua today.

I always take these with a grain of salt, since it is a mouthpiece for the government. Though considering China started their high-speed line building binge just a decade ago, it is impressive that they have so much trackage now.



> *Xinhua Insight: High speed rail brings development opportunities to western interior*
> 
> XINING, Dec. 26 (Xinhua) -- Three new high speed railway lines officially opened on Friday, the bullet trains' maiden journeys may have transported passengers but they also brought economic opportunities to China's underdeveloped western interior.
> 
> The Lanxin high speed railway -- which links Xinjiang's Urumqi with Xining, capital of Qinghai Province; and Lanzhou, capital of Gansu Province -- is the first of its kind to be built on the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau.
> 
> The Guiguang high-speed railway, meanwhile, links the southwestern Guizhou Province and Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region in the south to the economic hub of Guangdong Province. The designed speed is 250 km per hour on this route.
> 
> The 574-km Nanguang high-speed railway links Nanning, capital of Guangxi, to Guangzhou, capital of Guandong.
> 
> The new railways are marvels of advanced modern engineering, as the west of China is infamous for its challenging environment.
> 
> *DISTANCE AND TIME*
> 
> China's western regions are rich in natural resources and home to dozens of ethnic moronities. However, for a long time, development has been stagnant.
> 
> Thus, the three lines will not only benefit the local people in terms of transportation but will also help the local economy.
> 
> Wang Dongwei, 51, a businessman who lives in Zhangye City in Gansu Province, jumped at the opportunity to take the high speed train from Zhangye to Lanzhou.
> 
> "In the 1980s, it would take 21 hours to travel from Zhangye to Lanzhou.Even today, the normal train takes more than six hours, but now, the trip is a mere three hours," he said.
> 
> Meng Yinzhi, an agricultural worker in Gugua Village in Sandu Autonomous County, which is southwest of Guizhou, said the railway would change her life.
> 
> "I will find a job in Guangzhou after the Spring Festival, as the new railway reduces the trip from two days to just three hours, meaning I will be able to change my work/life balance," said Meng, 36.
> 
> She explained that she had worked in Guangzhou for several years, but had returned home five years ago to take care of her elderly parents and baby, leaving her husband in the coastal city.
> 
> *BRIGHTER FUTURE*
> 
> Wang Yuanlai, head of Ping'an County in Qinghai, said: "The high-speed railway will help western regions monetize their natural resources and will bring industrial advantages with it."
> 
> According to Xinjiang's development and reform commission, due to human traffic swapping to the new railway, freight volume on the old Lanxin railway will increase, to 150 million tonnes a year compared to 78.5 million tonnes in 2013.
> 
> Director of the tourism bureau of Datong Hui and Tu Autonomous County in Qinghai, Sun Jing, said the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau will see a tourism boom thanks to the new Lanxin high speed line.
> 
> "The new network will bring more tourists to the region," he said, adding that in the past, travel around the area was difficult and time-consuming.
> 
> The Lanxin railway, which follows part of the ancient Silk Road route, is also expected to play a key role in the Silk Road Economic Belt program by boosting cooperation with central and western Asian nations.
> 
> "It will allow livestock, Tibetan blankets, dresses and other products to be shipped to Central Asia and Europe," said Wei Xiaojun, who works at the Xining City customs department.
> 
> Researcher with the Guizhou Academy of Social Sciences, Huang Yong, said the Guiguang high speed railway will facilitate the transfer of technology and experience from eastern coastal areas to the southwestern interior.
> 
> *A MODERN LEGEND*
> 
> China has achieved a string of high-speed railway mileage and technological milestones and boasts more than 10,000 km of high speed railway lines.
> 
> The Gobi Desert, which the Lanxin high speed railway crosses, had long been a technical conundrum for infrastructure projects.
> 
> Chief engineer of the railway project, Wang Zhengbang, explained that the area that the line crosses is known for devastating gales, which in the past have caused derailments, so special wind-breaking structures had to be designed.
> 
> "It is the first time that technology [like this] has been used on such a large scale," Wang said.
> 
> Guiguang high-speed railway, which runs through faults, rivers, valleys and downtown areas, has been hailed a "super railway" after its construction team had to overcome many difficulties.
> 
> The Karst region, general manager of Guiguang High-Speed Railway Co., Zhang Jianbo, explained was an especially difficult area for construction, due to the area's geology, such as fragile limestone.
> 
> Technology developed especially for the Guiguang high speed railway represents another landmark in China's high-speed railway history, and with China's high-speed trains run on five continents, the sector is fast becoming an attractive business magnet for foreign buyers.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Xinhua said:


> China's western regions are rich in natural resources and home to dozens of ethnic *moronities*.


Bolding mine.


----------



## 孟天宝

chornedsnorkack said:


> Bolding mine.


Wow, there's an awkward typo for you. >.<

... and its still on the main page. I wonder how long before someone tells them.


----------



## Cosmicbliss

Moronities? How can someone make such a mistake?

By the way, what happens to the old lines when HSR opens? Can anyone tell me? Does the patronage drop or stay the same, with airline passengers shifting to HSR?


----------



## abcpdo

foxmulder said:


> Just to put it in perspective, the total length of these three lines, 3210km, would make them second largest high speed network on the World. Longer than what Spain or Japan has. Nice news.


wow.


----------



## Sunfuns

ccdk said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu–Guangzhou_High-Speed_Railway
> Apparently there is a Chengdu - Guangzhou HSR (in which the *Guangzhou - Guiyang section was just opened*) under construction, I presume this line will pass through Chongqing. Some forum posts mentioned this line will be operational in 2015.
> 
> Consider also the Chengdu - Chongqing Intercity line will also become operational in 2015


I thought that line would continue to Kunming or perhaps it would do that as well.


----------



## ccdk

^^ sadly not a HSR but a conventional line will be built in addition to the existing one. It has just passed the environmental study and construction has yet to start.

It is expected that this new line will be built and operational before 2020. The existing Chengdu - Kunming line is 1098km, but the new line will only be 737km with effective rerouting. Designed speed is 160km/h, and will take 5 hours from Chengdu to Kunming 

http://news.gaotie.cn/tielu/2014-10-12/189658.html


----------



## chornedsnorkack

big-dog said:


> *Dec 28
> Jimo-Rongcheng HSR opened*
> 
> Jimo-Rongcheng HSR is the major part of Qingdao-Rongcheng HSR. Now only Qingdao-Jimo part is under construction (opening early 2015). Connetion line to Qingdao-Jinan HSR is opened on the same day.
> 
> Qingdao-Rongcheng HSR:
> Length: 299.18km
> Design speed: 250km/h


Looks like there are 6 high speed trains daily Jinan-Rongcheng: 4 D trains originate at Jinan, 2 G trains from 1 from Beijing and 1 from Shanghai. Trip time from Jinan 4:21 to 4:43, price second class 196 yuan 5 jiao, first class 236 yuan, business class where offered 589 yuan 5 jiao.


----------



## ccdk

*HSR Futian station*

http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2015-01/02/c_127353593.htm


----------



## ccdk

*Plunging fuel price (as in airlines) vs HSR*

Here is an interesting news: http://hzdaily.hangzhou.com.cn/mrsb/html/2015-01/04/content_1873940.htm

Because of the plunge of the oil price, authorities/airlines have adjusted the airline fuel surcharge downwards 5 times since September 2014, and the fifth adjustment will be applied 5 January, 2015 at:

travel distance > 800km: 60 yuan (Sept 2014, adjusted from 120 to 110 yuan)
travel distance < 800km: 30 yuan (Oct 2014, adjusted from 60 to 50 yuan)

Then they take the cheapest air ticket on 6th January and compare with same day HSR ticket from Hangzhou to Beijing, price of the air ticket is less than half of the HSR ticket:

HSR 2nd class ticket HZ - BJ: 538.5 yuan
Cheapest air ticket HZ - BJ: 230 yuan (ticket 150, airport tariff 50, and fuel surcharge 30)

Apparently they made a mistake when calculating air ticket price. HZ - BJ is >1300km, and they applied fuel surcharge price of <800km. If correct fuel surcharge is applied, it should be 150+50+60 = 260 yuan

It's interesting to see how long the oil price will stay this low and if it will affect people's travel patterns and choices in terms of air/HSR.









Upper half of the picture: fuel surcharge adjustments in 2013 and 2014
Lower half: comparison of HSR and air ticket prices as of November 2014, green is cheapest air ticket available, light green is 2nd class HSR tickets, from left to right: Beijing - Nanjing, Beijing - Hefei, Beijing - Shanghai, Beijing - Wuhan, Beijing - Changsha, Beijing - Shenzhen


----------



## greenlion

The plan of second HSR between Beijing and Shijiazhuang announced, the Beijing - Shijiazhuang PDL will be operate at speed of 300km/h, from Beijing West to New Zhengding station


----------



## chornedsnorkack

greenlion said:


> The plan of second HSR between Beijing and Shijiazhuang announced, the Beijing - Shijiazhuang PDL will be operate at speed of 300km/h, from Beijing West to New Zhengding station


What are the red striped lines?


----------



## Woonsocket54

Is it safe to say that the underground connection between Beijing Railway Station and Beijing West Railway Station did not open in 2014?

http://www.thenanfang.com/blog/beijing-to-open-metro-line-7-and-intercity-train-express/


----------



## ccdk

*Western HSR*

Initial discussion of a new HSR through the western region, possible route:
Baotou (Inner Mongolia) - Yan'an (Shaanxi) - Xi'an (Shannxi) - Zhangjiajie (Hunan) - Guilin (Guangxi) - Hankou (Hainan)

http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2015-01-05/020631359422.shtml
http://city.ifeng.com/a/20150106/416820_0.shtml


----------



## Silly_Walks

^^

On that route you could take a train from Yulin to Yulin ^_^


----------



## FM 2258

Woonsocket54 said:


> Is it safe to say that the underground connection between Beijing Railway Station and Beijing West Railway Station did not open in 2014?
> 
> http://www.thenanfang.com/blog/beijing-to-open-metro-line-7-and-intercity-train-express/


I'm don't seem to fully understand how this underground connection is supposed to work. Are CRH and conventional trains supposed to use it to continue through Beijing or is it a short metro line connecting the two stations?


----------



## Woonsocket54

FM 2258 said:


> I'm don't seem to fully understand how this underground connection is supposed to work. Are CRH and conventional trains supposed to use it to continue through Beijing or is it a short metro line connecting the two stations?


It's not known how this is marketed or if it's even a hoax like the straddle bus. It pops up in the media now and then and was supposed to open 3 years ago:









http://www.cctv.com/english/special/news/20091029/103579.shtml

The following was also written not too long ago:



> Tip: The underground direct line connecting Beijing Railway Station and Beijing West is scheduled to open on December 26th, 2014. Then passengers will be able to transfer between the two stations in about 10 minutes. Trains running on Beijing-Guangzhou and Beijing-Kowloon Railways can stop at either station, so do those to/from northeast China. Measuring 5.69 miles (9.15 kilometers) long, the line runs westward from Beijing Railway Station, goes under ground at the end of Chongwen Gate Triangle Land, passes by Qianmen, Xuanwu Gate, Heavenly Tranquility Temple (Tianning Temple) and East Lianhuachi Road, and finally reaches West Railway Station.


http://www.travelchinaguide.com/china-trains/beijing-west-station.htm

If true, then this is nearly on the scale of London's Crossrail, but the radio silence suggests that something has gone horribly wrong.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Thanks for the informative post, now I understand why I was confused!


----------



## ccdk

greenlion said:


> The plan of second HSR between Beijing and Shijiazhuang announced


It would make a lot of sense if this line runs through the Bejing New Airport that is under construction


----------



## feisibuke

Silly_Walks said:


> ^^
> 
> On that route you could take a train from Yulin to Yulin ^_^


You can already take a train from Suzhou to Suzhou.


----------



## Pansori

My video of Beijing-Guangzhou on G79 (taken in November 2014)


----------



## foxmulder

A cool toy: Maintenance train for high speed rail lines:


----------



## Silly_Walks

^^ 

Cool! Is it diesel + electric?


----------



## Maadeuurija

Silly_Walks said:


> ^^
> 
> Cool! Is it diesel + electric?


I would guess it's diesel only... the pantograph should be there only for maintenance


----------



## Pansori

What's the top speed? 160km/h I suppose?


----------



## ccdk

Grunnen said:


> Usually the official railway maps


I dont believe that's the official map, it was probably made by HSR enthusiasts. And here is the source, which I forgot to paste in that post.
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/china-trains/railway-map.htm

but agreed, there should be insets for those regions with high HSR density such as the PRD and Shanghai/Nanjing/Hangzhou region.


----------



## ccdk

*BJ-SH high speed rail makes first annual profit*

BJ - SH HSR made 1.2 billion yuan in profit in 2014

http://www.ecns.cn/video/2015/01-27/152397.shtml


----------



## ccdk

http://english.cntv.cn/2015/01/27/VIDE1422303478599552.shtml


----------



## hhzz

China's high speed rail network in operation has reached 16,000 km by the end of 2014.

1.Congjiang,Guizhou Province









2.Zhangye,Gansu Province









---------
xinhuanet


----------



## ccdk

*Fastest Operational Trains*

http://www.guancha.cn/GuanChaZheWang/2015_01_31_308141.shtml

A Chinese media compared the speed of fastest operational trains from different countries. It did not specify whether it is the top speed, or average speed, but I am guessing it's average speed on the route, or a section of the route they are comparing. For example, G1/2 they took the speed of Bejing - Nanjing section, rather than the whole route BJ-SH.

For a few of the routes, they mentioned the average speed of the whole route, I believe they meant the speed is consistent along the whole route/section for all trains, that's why they did not specify train numbers. For example, the first row, it is said "24 trains" from Shaoguan - Leiyang West has an average speed of 316.6km/h

Columns from left to right:

Train #, start station, end station, distance, speed


----------



## Silly_Walks

How can you have an average speed of 316.6 km/h, when the official top speed is 300 km/h, and the top speed in practice is around 311-314 km/h?


----------



## Pansori

Silly_Walks said:


> How can you have an average speed of 316.6 km/h, when the official top speed is 300 km/h, and the top speed in practice is around 311-314 km/h?


They either don't know what average speed is or did not specify what they actually meant. They probably meant average top speed between a sample of trains. 316 is still a bit high. As you said they would usually top at around 310km/h. Unless on this particular route they go a bit faster for some reason.

This still looks strange because numbers for other countries do seem to show average speed rather than top speed.


----------



## Svartmetall

Indeed. When I took G1 and G2, the speed never went above 301km/h, and we arrived at our scheduled times.


----------



## Pansori

Svartmetall said:


> Indeed. When I took G1 and G2, the speed never went above 301km/h, and we arrived at our scheduled times.


The fastest I saw in person was 308km/h. And on some TV broadcast 310km/h. It's a routine to go at anything up to 310 or 311km/h. Not 316km/h though.

It was mentioned before by somebody (in this or some other China HSR thread) that the actual hard limit is 315km/h i.e. when alarm would go off or some other automatic emergency action would be taken.


----------



## ccdk

Another factor not mentioned is the time span they took the samples. If the samples were only taken for the calendar year of 2014, 316km/h does sound unrealistic. But if they sampled the data for the whole period since the line commenced operation, it might be possible. Notice the top 3 (Shaoguan - Leiyang West, Hengyang East - Shaoguan, Guangzhou South - Changsha South) are all along the Wuhan-Guangzhou line, which were opened beginning of 2010, and it was running 350km/h back then. The speed was reduced to 300 in August 2011. So with a longer time span the average speed of 316km/h does sound possible.


----------



## Pansori

ccdk said:


> Another factor not mentioned is the time span they took the samples. If the samples were only taken for the calendar year of 2014, 316km/h does sound unrealistic. But if they sampled the data for the whole period since the line commenced operation, it might be possible. Notice the top 3 (Shaoguan - Leiyang West, Hengyang East - Shaoguan, Guangzhou South - Changsha South) are all along the Wuhan-Guangzhou line, which were opened beginning of 2010, and it was running 350km/h back then. The speed was reduced to 300 in August 2011. So with a longer time span the average speed of 316km/h does sound possible.


This is what I thought as well. If they measured average speeds prior to July 2011 speed reduction then average speeds of 316km/h (with the maximum speed of around 355km/h) are completely realistic. However they are not relevant today. Still the top spot would probably still belong to the Chinese network? Beijing-Shanghai is 271km/h average. Any faster lines?

Edit: if my calculation is correct then G79 beyween Shujiazhuang and Wuhan goes at an average speed of 273km/h.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Perhaps they also use the distances that are used to calculate ticket prices, which are generally the older, less direct routes, instead of the new, more direct HS lines.


----------



## foxmulder

> Woman gives birth to a baby girl in curtained-off passageway on a high-speed train in S China.


----------



## flankerjun

the real distance of wuhan-Guangzhou line is shorter than they claimed,this is the reason.


----------



## ccdk

^^ but the speed were measured in different sections along the route. Have they inflated the distance of those sections as well?


----------



## Silly_Walks

From all we've seen now, we can pretty much throw that table in the bin, as it makes no sense.


----------



## Svartmetall

A brief panoramic video I made in the centre of Beijing south station. I took a LOT of videos of the CRH system and my journeys on the trains. I'll be uploading them over time so I hope you guys don't mind if I post videos and pictures here.


----------



## Cosmicbliss

Are the brands at chinese railway stations local or foreign?


----------



## Pansori

Cosmicbliss said:


> Are the brands at chinese railway stations local or foreign?


Both.


----------



## hkskyline

*Magic of the bullet trains*
13 February 2015
China Daily _Excerpt_ 

High-speed services carry passengers in comfort and style for Spring Festival

China's growing high-speed rail network has made life a lot easier for people traveling back home during the annual Spring Festival holiday rush, passengers say. 

"I clearly remember 20 years ago, when I first came to Beijing to procure goods, I had to spend more than 50 hours on a train when returning to my hometown in Guangzhou," said Ding Mingyao, a food wholesaler who has been doing business in Beijing since 1994.

For many Chinese, returning home for Spring Festival, the most important holiday of the year, is like a sacred ritual they must perform. The long-held tradition creates an annual travel rush that is perhaps the world's largest recurring human migration. This year, Spring Festival falls on Feb 19.

"Young people cannot imagine how we endured sitting on uncomfortable seats for as long as 50 hours," Ding laughed.

"To be honest, it felt really bad staying two days on a train, but we didn't have any choice, a bullet train was like something from the Arabian Nights for Chinese people, and most ordinary people couldn't afford an air ticket."

Pointing at the spearhead-shaped power unit of the train he was about to take at Beijing West Railway Station, Ding said the time of his train journey to Guangdong province has been greatly reduced.

"Now I get on the high-speed train at 10:30 am and arrive in Guangzhou at about 8 pm, which means I can have dinner with my two daughters at home," he said. "After the girls graduate from the university and move to Beijing, I plan to take the high-speed trains with them during every Spring Festival."

Last year, Chinese passengers made more than 3.6 billion trips during the Spring Festival - 3.3 billion by road, 266 million by train, 44 million by air, and 42 million by boat - the Ministry of Transport says.

For office employees, migrant workers and students who have a long distance to travel to get to their hometowns, rail travel is the most convenient and fastest option.

"I'm willing to stand in a line and wait two hours for a train ticket," said Li Chengxin, a construction worker in Guangzhou who hails from Guizhou province.

"It's virtually impossible to take a bus home because there is usually heavy traffic on the roads during the holiday rush, and flying is too expensive for me."

With the new Guiyang-Guangzhou high-speed railway, Li can reach his hometown in less than five hours, instead of the 21 hours it used to take him.


----------



## foxmulder

ccdk said:


> ...



Great pictures, but what is with the used cell phones?


----------



## flankerjun

I think the train you ride may be CRH3C,the oldest HST in China,they are terrible..


----------



## Pansori

dodge321 said:


> Well we must have different definitions of "as smooth as it gets". I think while cruising on a flight when there is no turbulence is as smooth as it gets, you get long stretches where you don't feel anything. However, there were noticeable vibrations on the train.


Of course I'm not comparing it to airplanes or other modes of transport but to railways.


----------



## ddes

I've ridden multiple Velaros, and I must say the ride quality is the worst but I'm just nitpicking. The TGV and CRH380A are the smoothest IMO.


----------



## stoneybee

foxmulder said:


> Great pictures, but what is with the used cell phones?


I don't know for sure but I believe no un-official communication with outside is allowed while you are on duty so you have to submit your phone while you are on your station. Which is actually quite common in China than one might think. Railway control is still considered as semi-military operation in China and there are PLA representatives/liaison officers in each railway control room in China.

Anyone with further insight on this would be appreciated.


----------



## Grunnen

^^ Don't the Chinese also have the habit of *always* answering the phone, even if you are in a business meeting giving an important presentation? I can imagine that such behaviour is unwanted for traffic controllers.


----------



## ccdk

foxmulder said:


> Great pictures, but what is with the used cell phones?


I am guessing it's simply for communication purposes when the control room needs to stay in contact with dispatchers on the platforms, maybe replacing the commonly used walkie talkies.

for those chinese characters marked under each phone, the first part indicates the route, fx. Beijing - Guangzhou line, Bejing - Harbin line, etc. and the last character "台“, for communication purposes, it could mean channel, or station. 

and answering the phone during a meeting or negotiation could be a tactic to gain bargaining power, think out of the box! :lol:


----------



## ccdk

*Guiyang - Nanning HSR commences construction end of 2015*

http://www.gz.xinhuanet.com/2015-02/25/c_1114425932.htm

Expected operational: 2021
Total length: 533km
Travel time: 2 hours
Designed speed: 350km/h (operational speed should be 300)


----------



## kunming tiger

Another missing link


----------



## kunming tiger

Beijing-Tianjin HSR will extend into Tianjin airport T2 which makes Tianjin Airport within easy reach of Beijing.

When will the HSR open?


----------



## FM 2258

flankerjun said:


> I think the train you ride may be CRH3C,the oldest HST in China,they are terrible..





ddes said:


> I've ridden multiple Velaros, and I must say the ride quality is the worst but I'm just nitpicking. The TGV and CRH380A are the smoothest IMO.


These are my favorite trains when it comes to looks, I can't wait to ride one to see what you guys are talking about. I've only ridden on a CRH1A, I thought those were the oldest on the CRH trains.


----------



## flankerjun

*North-East,Harbin-Dalin.*


----------



## TacPack

nice :cheers:


----------



## flankerjun

the average distance that Chinese people ride train is over 500km in 2014.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> the average distance that Chinese people ride train is over 500km in 2014.


And that´s a huge problem.
What is being done to add stations?


----------



## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> And that´s a huge problem.
> What is being done to add stations?


Not really, adding a whole bunch of stations would just slow the trains down to stop a lot, which is pretty bad when you travel long distance. From my own travel experience, I find myself take the express train (T train or HSR when available) to major station, then take medium haul bus (which always have a huge hub near train stations) to the more locations (small townships usually) to be a faster and more convenient option rather than taking slow train that stops everywhere.


----------



## flankerjun

chornedsnorkack said:


> And that´s a huge problem.
> What is being done to add stations?


just the habit,train still a main choice for long distance travel in China.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

luhai said:


> Not really, adding a whole bunch of stations would just slow the trains down to stop a lot, which is pretty bad when you travel long distance.


It would slow down those trains that stop.


luhai said:


> From my own travel experience, I find myself take the express train (T train or HSR when available) to major station, then take medium haul bus (which always have a huge hub near train stations) to the more locations (small townships usually) to be a faster and more convenient option rather than taking slow train that stops everywhere.


How about, take express train to a major station and there walk across platform to a medium haul train, to go to the small station which is your destination?


----------



## 孟天宝

chornedsnorkack said:


> How about, take express train to a major station and there walk across platform to a medium haul train, to go to the small station which is your destination?


The closest I've seen to that is here in Chengdu with the Cheng-Mian-Le intercity line. [成绵乐城际铁路] You can take the "high-speed" Huhanrong Line [沪汉蓉高铁] from Shanghai and interchange at Chengdu East with the intercity line if you want to get to Mianyang, Deyang, Leshan or Meishan. I believe Wuhan and Nanning has a similar thing with their intercity lines as well as Zhengzhou later this year.

The only problem with this set up is when they build these stations, they are always outside of town. Currently the only new station (that comes to mind) for the high speed lines that's anywhere near downtown is at Shijiazhuang - Futian is the only other but it's not open yet. The slow trains often operate out of centrally located stations but the fast trains rarely do, instead going to greenfield stations which don't have local trains.

As well, time tables for the intercity trains are often less frequent that buses. I can go to my local county (县）bus station and take buses all around the city to other counties and townships (镇) usually within 10 to 15 minutes. I know countries like Japan and Germany have a huge rail density (Germany has 10 times the density!) so for China to be able to reach all the cities and the bigger counties would require something like a million kilometres of trackage.

Buses might not be the sexiest or fleetest of modes of transport, but I think for China its a necessity for as long as people (and their families) live in the rural townships. Besides, you get to meet a lot of funny characters whilst busing!


----------



## chornedsnorkack

孟天宝;122029755 said:


> I believe Wuhan and Nanning has a similar thing with their intercity lines


Wuhan I´ve heard of, but where do Nanning "intercity" lines go?


孟天宝;122029755 said:


> as well as Zhengzhou later this year.


So, which is the first local HSR to open in Zhengzhou? And in which month?


孟天宝;122029755 said:


> The only problem with this set up is when they build these stations, they are always outside of town. Currently the only new station (that comes to mind) for the high speed lines that's anywhere near downtown is at Shijiazhuang - Futian is the only other but it's not open yet. The slow trains often operate out of centrally located stations but the fast trains rarely do, instead going to greenfield stations which don't have local trains.


And that´s the problem.
If they can build a huge greenfield station out of town, they should be able to also build a branch line from the existing centrally located station to the greenfield station, and put local stations on that line. Or even better, put the greenfield station right on an existing line, and just add the local trains´ platforms to that old line.
They don´t seem to have done much of it.


孟天宝;122029755 said:


> As well, time tables for the intercity trains are often less frequent that buses. I can go to my local county (县）bus station and take buses all around the city to other counties and townships (镇) usually within 10 to 15 minutes. I know countries like Japan and Germany have a huge rail density (Germany has 10 times the density!) so for China to be able to reach all the cities and the bigger counties would require something like a million kilometres of trackage.


China needs a million kilometres of trackage, sure. But to reach all the "bigger counties" takes much less than that. And the problem is, China is not making a good use of the existing 100 000 km either.


孟天宝;122029755 said:


> Buses might not be the sexiest or fleetest of modes of transport, but I think for China its a necessity for as long as people (and their families) live in the rural townships.


Yes, but what China also needs is trains which actually stop in rural townships.


----------



## ccdk

chornedsnorkack said:


> And that´s the problem.
> If they can build a huge greenfield station out of town, they should be able to also build a branch line from the existing centrally located station to the greenfield station, and put local stations on that line. Or even better, put the greenfield station right on an existing line, and just add the local trains´ platforms to that old line.
> They don´t seem to have done much of it.
> 
> China needs a million kilometres of trackage, sure. But to reach all the "bigger counties" takes much less than that. And the problem is, China is not making a good use of the existing 100 000 km either.
> 
> Yes, but what China also needs is trains which actually stop in rural townships.


I believe those are plans for the next steps. There are plans in many cities to connect the old and the new stations by subway lines and buses, or in the case of Beijing, they are building an underground tunnel to connect major stations.

It all comes down to how to efficiently allocate resources, and I agree with one of the previous posts, putting too many stations will slow the trains. 

But from my personal experience visiting relatives living in a village in northeastern China, there is a train station there, where the village is! We always took the super slow train to the village (one administrative level below township), last trip was three years ago and the station was still there, just like how it looked 20 years ago. And I dont believe northeastern China is the only region that villages are covered by railways.

Granted, old and new stations that are intended to serve different purposes in cities may be less well connected currently, but the township/village coverage is entirely another discussion, and not sure how you reached to your conclusion.


----------



## ccdk

flankerjun said:


> *North-East,Harbin-Dalin*


*

The line will adjust to summer schedule from 21st April, which means all G trains will run at 300km/h again, and D trains at 250km/h :carrot::carrot:*


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## chornedsnorkack

ccdk said:


> It all comes down to how to efficiently allocate resources, and I agree with one of the previous posts, putting too many stations will slow the trains.


I disagree. It slows the trains that stop in those stations.


ccdk said:


> But from my personal experience visiting relatives living in a village in northeastern China, there is a train station there, where the village is! We always took the super slow train to the village (one administrative level below township), last trip was three years ago and the station was still there, just like how it looked 20 years ago. And I dont believe northeastern China is the only region that villages are covered by railways.


Precisely. Then why is the average trip length so long?


ccdk said:


> Granted, old and new stations that are intended to serve different purposes in cities may be less well connected currently, but the township/village coverage is entirely another discussion, and not sure how you reached to your conclusion.


That´s what is needed for useful rail network. Good connections to villages/suburbs.
Also... There is a railway between Shanghai South and Jinshanwei.
The trains there are called C - not number or K trains.
Is that railway therefore HSR? Or is it a metro line, Shanghai Metro Line 22?


----------



## maginn

chornedsnorkack said:


> I disagree. It slows the trains that stop in those stations.
> 
> Precisely. Then why is the average trip length so long?
> 
> That´s what is needed for useful rail network. Good connections to villages/suburbs.
> Also... There is a railway between Shanghai South and Jinshanwei.
> The trains there are called C - not number or K trains.
> Is that railway therefore HSR? Or is it a metro line, Shanghai Metro Line 22?


The Shanghai South - Jinshanwei trains use HSR rolling stock and operate independently of both the metro network and the national HSR network, this is why it is called 'C': for City-level. Xinzhuang station (terminal of metro lines 1 and 5) is a planned stop on the line but has yet to start construction. 
The vast majority of people take the non-stop service all the way from Shanghai S to Jinshanwei, the stops in between serve suburban/rural areas in southwestern Shanghai and are not well connected to other modes of transport.


----------



## ccdk

chornedsnorkack said:


> I disagree. It slows the trains that stop in those stations.
> 
> Precisely. Then why is the average trip length so long?
> 
> That´s what is needed for useful rail network. Good connections to villages/suburbs.
> Also... There is a railway between Shanghai South and Jinshanwei.
> The trains there are called C - not number or K trains.
> Is that railway therefore HSR? Or is it a metro line, Shanghai Metro Line 22?


It comes down to what trains/lines you want to add stops. Those trains are super slow because they already stop at many stations, adding one does not explicitly reduce the efficiency. But adding one station on a HSR line probably takes out a lot of the time for HSRs.

Thatwas just a one sentence statement, we are not sure if it meant for HSR, or conventional trains, or the mix.

C is for Chengji (intercity). Beijibg - Tianjin, Shanghai - Nanjing are both intercity trains. And with the integration of pearl delta region, there will be more C trains come into service.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

ccdk said:


> But adding one station on a HSR line probably takes out a lot of the time for HSRs.


For some reason, it does take a lot of time for Line 22. 
C36xx trains travel a total of 55 km, they make 6 intermediate stops from Chunshen to Jinshanyuanqu, and the travel time is...
1:00

So, an average speed of 55 km/h is HSR!


----------



## akademi

I know this railway, I liked it wery much, but this pictures is deleted


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## 孟天宝

chornedsnorkack said:


> Wuhan I´ve heard of, but where do Nanning "intercity" lines go?


 Nanning is connected to towns on Guangxi's coast - Fangchengguang, Qinzhou and Beihai. As well, the Nanning to Liuzhou and Liuzhou to Henyang are classed as intercity railway lines.



chornedsnorkack said:


> So, which is the first local HSR to open in Zhengzhou? And in which month?


 Supposedly the Zhengzhou-Kaifeng intercity line [郑开城际铁路] has already opened according to Baike - on December 28th of last year. I never saw anything about it in the papers though and it appears to stop *just* before Kaifeng. The entire network is quite wordily named "中原城市群城際軌道交通" or Central Plains Metropolitan Intercity Railway. Lines are supposed to head off towards Jiaozuo, Xuchang, Luoyang and Xinxiang.



> And that´s the problem. If they can build a huge greenfield station out of town, they should be able to also build a branch line from the existing centrally located station to the greenfield station, and put local stations on that line. Or even better, put the greenfield station right on an existing line, and just add the local trains´ platforms to that old line.
> They don´t seem to have done much of it.


I'm not sure if building more stations is the right solution though. Train tickets are invariably more expensive than the bus - doubly so for the new high-speed lines; even this year many of my friends took the bus not because there were no trains but because it was cheaper and more ... traditional? It's like because they've always taken the bus, that's what they are comfortable with. I know more about where the new lines go and where the new stations than they do! 

I wonder if before stations start sprouting all over the country side, that there needs to be a paradigm shift in how people approach transportation. It's one thing to build stations, but if nobody uses them then it's a bit silly. I know some of the lines (Beijing-Shanghai for example) are many money hand over first, but there are some lines that have been built are derisively called "lines to nowhere." People still equate train travel with 1980s time where you sat on a hard bench (unless you have a 无座 ticket) and shared the train with pigs and goats.


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## chornedsnorkack

孟天宝;122049736 said:


> Nanning is connected to towns on Guangxi's coast - Fangchengguang, Qinzhou and Beihai.


None of which are towns: all three are prefecture-level cities.
Also, this railway connects no towns whatsoever. No station stops exist on the 117 km stretch between Nanning and Qinzhou East.

For comparison, Guangzhou South-Zhuhai is also 116 km - but C trains make as many as 7 stops in between, and as they skip different stations, the total number of stations with real service is yet larger.


----------



## 孟天宝

chornedsnorkack said:


> None of which are towns: all three are prefecture-level cities.
> Also, this railway connects no towns whatsoever. No station stops exist on the 117 km stretch between Nanning and Qinzhou East.
> 
> For comparison, Guangzhou South-Zhuhai is also 116 km - but C trains make as many as 7 stops in between, and as they skip different stations, the total number of stations with real service is yet larger.


A quick look on Baike's entry for county-level divisions [县级行政区] gives me;



Baike said:


> 截至2013年12月31日，全国县级行政区划单位有2853个，其中市辖区872个、县级市368个、县1442个、自治县117个、旗49个、自治旗3个、特区1个、林区1个.





Translation by me said:


> As of Dec. 31 2013, there are 2853 county-level divisions in the country; 872 city districts, 368 county-level cities, 1442 counties, 117 autonomous counties, 49 banners [divisions in Inner Mongolia], 3 autonomous banners, 1 special district and 1 forestry district


I guess for a country the size of China, having 3000-odd stations for *every* county might be possible. But considering how much stations tend to go for these days, that might be a tad excessive. Even if such a thing were possible, counties are not always small units like in America or Europe. My county is just over 400 sq km which puts it on the smaller end; next door Dujiangyan is 1200 sq km. As China is 9.5 million sq km, you're looking at an average county of over 3000 sq km.

Going back to concrete examples in Guangxi; while not strictly "intercity" trains - these are D trains - the Liuzhou-Nanning and Guangzhou-Nanning line has stops at counties. The Chengdu to Dujiangyan line (with branches to Pengzhou and Qingcheng Mtn.) and Wuhan Megapolis Intercity Lines are the only ones I can think that almost exclusively go to counties.

And I have to admit when I take the train to Dujiangyan or Qingcheng Mtn. I am a bit annoyed when the train stops at intermediate stations. I noticed they don't quite have services like Japan with things Special-Rapid Express, Rapid Express, Express, Semi-Express, and Local. Nor do they have the frequency that many Japanese lines seem to have. So while it might be theoretically possible for China to build a profusion of lines; I'm not sure at this stage they would be able to manage it so you have some trains that speed through, some that stop at a select few and others that go to each county.

I'm still waiting for the high-speed trains to connect to the cities in a some-what logical manner! The Lanzhou to Xi'an and Shijiazhuang to Taiyuan gaps are the most glaring.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

孟天宝;122057685 said:


> I guess for a country the size of China, having 3000-odd stations for *every* county might be possible.


Um, no. Not even for China - because then you are talking of far over 9 000 000 stations!


孟天宝;122057685 said:


> But considering how much stations tend to go for these days, that might be a tad excessive.


Indeed that tendency is excessive! 
Look at the bottom category of German railway stations. 870 of 5400.
Duisburg-Entenfang station:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...es#mediaviewer/File:BF_Duisburg-Entenfang.jpg
Could something like this, in every county, be affordable?


孟天宝;122057685 said:


> Even if such a thing were possible, counties are not always small units like in America or Europe. My county is just over 400 sq km which puts it on the smaller end; next door Dujiangyan is 1200 sq km. As China is 9.5 million sq km, you're looking at an average county of over 3000 sq km.


I´m in Europe, and my county is over 4000 square km.
As for Sichuan, I note that Sichuan´s population as of 2010 census, 81,1 millions, is pretty close to that of Germany.
Sichuan consists of 48 districts, 14 county level cities, 117 counties and 4 autonomous counties. But once you substract the 3 autonomous prefectures of Sichuan, and Panzhihua prefecture level city, how many counties, square kilometres and people are left in eastern Sichuan?


孟天宝;122057685 said:


> And I have to admit when I take the train to Dujiangyan or Qingcheng Mtn. I am a bit annoyed when the train stops at intermediate stations. I noticed they don't quite have services like Japan with things Special-Rapid Express, Rapid Express, Express, Semi-Express, and Local. Nor do they have the frequency that many Japanese lines seem to have. So while it might be theoretically possible for China to build a profusion of lines; I'm not sure at this stage they would be able to manage it so you have some trains that speed through, some that stop at a select few and others that go to each county.


Which is why they should forthwith start learning how to do it, and do it well.


孟天宝;122057685 said:


> I'm still waiting for the high-speed trains to connect to the cities in a some-what logical manner! The Lanzhou to Xi'an and Shijiazhuang to Taiyuan gaps are the most glaring.


Agreed. But they also do not connect to central cities in logical manner. Which is another glaring gap to fill.


----------



## 孟天宝

chornedsnorkack said:


> Um, no. Not even for China - because then you are talking of far over 9 000 000 stations!


Oops, I meant 1 station per county. So 3000 stations for the entire country.



> Indeed that tendency is excessive!
> Look at the bottom category of German railway stations. 870 of 5400.
> Duisburg-Entenfang station:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...es#mediaviewer/File:BF_Duisburg-Entenfang.jpg
> Could something like this, in every county, be affordable?


Something like that, sure. But when this is the local train station for my township (one step below a county), I would assume they wouldn't build something so simple.



> I´m in Europe, and my county is over 4000 square km.
> As for Sichuan, I note that Sichuan´s population as of 2010 census, 81,1 millions, is pretty close to that of Germany.
> Sichuan consists of 48 districts, 14 county level cities, 117 counties and 4 autonomous counties. But once you substract the 3 autonomous prefectures of Sichuan, and Panzhihua prefecture level city, how many counties, square kilometres and people are left in eastern Sichuan?


 East Sichuan has 128 counties in an area of about 180,000 sq km with a population of about 73.4 million. So I guess the average county runs at like 1500 sq km. So I guess doable if they keep costs down, put stations near the county centres and have decent service (a mix of express and local). I'm somewhat jaded though, so I doubt this will happen in the current administration or even the next. hno:


----------



## maginn

孟天宝;122057685 said:


> A quick look on Baike's entry for county-level divisions [县级行政区] gives me;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess for a country the size of China, having 3000-odd stations for *every* county might be possible. But considering how much stations tend to go for these days, that might be a tad excessive. Even if such a thing were possible, counties are not always small units like in America or Europe. My county is just over 400 sq km which puts it on the smaller end; next door Dujiangyan is 1200 sq km. As China is 9.5 million sq km, you're looking at an average county of over 3000 sq km.
> 
> Going back to concrete examples in Guangxi; while not strictly "intercity" trains - these are D trains - the Liuzhou-Nanning and Guangzhou-Nanning line has stops at counties. The Chengdu to Dujiangyan line (with branches to Pengzhou and Qingcheng Mtn.) and Wuhan Megapolis Intercity Lines are the only ones I can think that almost exclusively go to counties.
> 
> And I have to admit when I take the train to Dujiangyan or Qingcheng Mtn. I am a bit annoyed when the train stops at intermediate stations. I noticed they don't quite have services like Japan with things Special-Rapid Express, Rapid Express, Express, Semi-Express, and Local. Nor do they have the frequency that many Japanese lines seem to have. So while it might be theoretically possible for China to build a profusion of lines; I'm not sure at this stage they would be able to manage it so you have some trains that speed through, some that stop at a select few and others that go to each county.
> 
> I'm still waiting for the high-speed trains to connect to the cities in a some-what logical manner! The Lanzhou to Xi'an and Shijiazhuang to Taiyuan gaps are the most glaring.


Actually there are high-speed train services running between Shijiazhuang and Taiyuan, perhaps you're thinking of Shijiazhuang to Jinan?
As for the line west to Xi'an, trains only run as far Baoji and will eventually link up with the Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR line once construction has finished.


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## chornedsnorkack

孟天宝;122061556 said:


> Something like that, sure. But when this is the local train station for my township (one step below a county), I would assume they wouldn't build something so simple.


The next rank of German railway stations. There are 2500 such stations - 870 in the lower rank, 2000 in the 5 higher ranks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loxstedt_station#mediaviewer/File:Loxstedt_Bahnhof.jpg
And the whole Sichuan has a grand total of 238 subdistricts, 1865 towns, 2586 townships and 93 ethnic townships.


孟天宝;122061556 said:


> East Sichuan has 128 counties in an area of about 180,000 sq km with a population of about 73.4 million. So I guess the average county runs at like 1500 sq km. So I guess doable if they keep costs down, put stations near the county centres and have decent service (a mix of express and local).


By my count, in 3 autonomous prefectures and 1 prefecture level city of Western Sichuan, there are 
in Ngawa, only counties, 13 of them
in Garze, only counties, 18 of them
in Liangshan, 1 county level city
15 counties
1 autonomous county
in Panzhihua, 3 districts and 2 counties
leaving in Eastern Sichuan
45 districts
13 county level cities
69 counties
3 autonomous counties
For comparison, Germany has
357 000 square km area
as of 2011 census, 80,2 million residents
divided into 16 States


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## ccdk

*Hefei - Fuzhou HSR undergoing tests and set to be operational by June 2015*










The railway is being examined from its foundations and will undergo a debugging process in January. If everything goes right, a trial run will be carried out in May before the railway goes into official service in June, said the authority.

The railway stretches 808 kilometers, connecting Hefei in Anhui province with Fuzhou in Fujian province. About 467 kilometers are in Jiangxi and Fujian provinces, threading by many tourism destinations such as the Yellow Mountain, Sanqing Mountain and Wuyi Mountain.

The railway is part of the Beijing-Fuzhou High-speed Railway. With a projected speed of 300 km/h, the railway will cut travel times between Fuzhou and Beijing from 20 hours to 7 hours.

It will also shorten the time by train from Fuzhou to Wuyi Mountain, Yellow Mountain and Hefei to 50 minutes, 2.5 hours and 3 hours, respectively.

The construction of the railway kicked off on Sept 30, 2010.


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## chornedsnorkack

ccdk said:


> The railway is being examined from its foundations and will undergo a debugging process in January.


That´s impossible, because January is over and so is February.


ccdk said:


> The railway is part of the Beijing-Fuzhou High-speed Railway. With a projected speed of 300 km/h, the railway will cut travel times between Fuzhou and Beijing from 20 hours to 7 hours.


That´s also impossible, because G56 already travels Fuzhou-Beijing in 10:36.


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## ccdk

^^ see the difference between G56 and Hefei-Fuzhou HSR?


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## Silly_Walks

^^

He's saying G56 doesn't take 20 hours.


So they're going from 10:36 to 7:00 hours.


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## 孟天宝

Nice to see another section finishing up.

Any particular reason why this one is rated for 350kph but the Hangzhou-Fuzhou-Shenzhen railway is rated at 250kph (except for the tiny Hangzhou to Ningbo part)? Both are crossing new terrains, and I would have guessed crossing the mountains was more difficult that hugging the coast. I've taken the latter and it did not seem terribly mountainous.

Is this not the railway that will theoretically cross the channel to Taipei? I remember seeing maps that featured an undersea tunnel to connect Fuzhou with Taipei.

Also aren't the eastern provinces getting nicely dense with high-speed track? Fujian already has the Xiangpu Railway[向莆铁路] going from Putian to Nanchang and Longxia Railway [龙厦铁路] going from Xiamen to Longyan; Jiangxi has the Changjiu Intercity Railway [昌九城际铁路] that connects Nanchang and Jiujiang as well as parts of the Hangchang High-Speed Railway [杭长高铁] that stretches from Hangzhou to Changsha traversing Changsha and Huangshan.

I'm sure plenty of county-level communities are being joined up by the new railways. :lol:


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## Silly_Walks

孟天宝;122089349 said:


> Any particular reason why this one is rated for 350kph but the Hangzhou-Fuzhou-Shenzhen railway is rated at 250kph (except for the tiny Hangzhou to Ningbo part)? Both are crossing new terrains, and I would have guessed crossing the mountains was more difficult that hugging the coast. I've taken the latter and it did not seem terribly mountainous.


I share your scepticism. Wikipedia actually says Hefei-Fuzhou is a 250 km/h line, with 200 km/h operation planned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hefei–Fuzhou_High-Speed_Railway


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## foxmulder

With high speed rail network, it is planned that "travel time to Beijing" will be decreased significantly. There was a map with circles centered around Beijing with targeted travel times. It was shared in this thread, too. So, what I am trying to say, lines between Beijing and other significant cities tend to be 350km/h standard. I guess we just have to wait and see. There are news articles saying different speeds for the line.


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## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> With high speed rail network, it is planned that "travel time to Beijing" will be decreased significantly. There was a map with circles centered around Beijing with targeted travel times. It was shared in this thread, too. So, what I am trying to say, lines between Beijing and other significant cities tend to be 350km/h standard.


Could somebody compile a map of "travel time to Shanghai", too?

Hangzhou-Shanghai - 0:45, G86
Nanchang-Shanghai - 3:03, G86
Fuzhou-Shanghai - 6:16, D3208
Changsha-Shanghai - 4:26, G86
Shenzhen-Shanghai - 11:08, D908 (overnight!)
Guangzhou-Shanghai - 6:50, G86
Nanning-Shanghai - 11:59, G1502
Guiyang-Shanghai - 1:01:43, K80
Haikou-Shanghai - 1:09:19, K512
Kunming-Shanghai - 1:09:40, K80
Nanjing-Shanghai - 1:07, G1 and others
Hefei-Shanghai - 2:40, G9338
Wuhan-Shanghai - 4:52, G600
Chongqing-Shanghai - 12:50, D638 and D2208
Chengdu-Shanghai - 14:55, D638
Zhengzhou-Shanghai - 6:43, D294
Xian-Shanghai - 10:56, D306 (overnight!)
Lanzhou-Shanghai - 22:33, Z166
Xining-Shanghai - 1:01:25, Z166
Lhasa-Shanghai - 2:01:03, Z166
Urumqi-Shanghai - 1:21:19, T206
Shijiazhuang-Shanghai - 11:16, Z198
Taiyuan-Shanghai - 13:51, Z198
Yinchuan-Shanghai - 1:03:29, K1331
Jinan-Shanghai - 3:21, G13 and G15
Tianjin-Shanghai - 4:59, G115
Beijing-Shanghai - 4:48, G1 and G3
Hohhot-Shanghai - 21:20, Z284
Shenyang-Shanghai 9:27, G1256
Changchun-Shanghai 11:21, G1256
Harbin-Shanghai 13:15, G1202


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## CarlosBlueDragon

From Wuhan to Nanjing by CRH
How much price (First Class and Second Class)??


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## chornedsnorkack

CarlosBlueDragon said:


> From Wuhan to Nanjing by CRH
> How much price (First Class and Second Class)??


Second Class 165 yuan 5 jiao
First Class 197 yuan 5 jiao
Business Class 494 yuan


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## 2015te bugar udario

:cheers:


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## 孟天宝

Silly_Walks said:


> I share your scepticism. Wikipedia actually says Hefei-Fuzhou is a 250 km/h line, with 200 km/h operation planned.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hefei–Fuzhou_High-Speed_Railway


Interesting, Baike's page; 合福客运专线  lists the top speed as 350kph.



> 是继京津、武广、郑西高铁之后，设计时速350公里的又一条双线电气化高速铁路。


----------



## chornedsnorkack

孟天宝;122089349 said:


> Any particular reason why this one is rated for 350kph but the Hangzhou-Fuzhou-Shenzhen railway is rated at 250kph (except for the tiny Hangzhou to Ningbo part)? Both are crossing new terrains, and I would have guessed crossing the mountains was more difficult that hugging the coast. I've taken the latter and it did not seem terribly mountainous.
> I'm sure plenty of county-level communities are being joined up by the new railways. :lol:


The coastal railway has quite a lot of stations.
On the section Fuzhou-Shanghai, my count is:

Mawei, Mawei District
Lianjiang, Lianjiang *County*-Shanghai - 5:56, D3208
Luoyuan, Luoyuan *County*-Shanghai - 6:04, D3104
Ningde, Jiaocheng District
Fuan, _there is a_ Fuan country level city 
Xiapu, Xiapu *County*-Shanghai - 5:09, D3208
Taimushan, Fuding county level city
Fuding, Fuding county level city
Cangnan, _there is a_ Cangnan *County*-Shanghai - 4:23, G7516
Pingyang/Aojiang?, _there is a_ Pingyang *County*-Shanghai - 4:23, G7588
Ruian, _there is a_ Ruian county level city 
Wenzhou South, Ouhai District
Yongjia?, _there is a_ Yongjia *County*, but no service found
Yueqing, Yueqing county level city
Shengfang, _no data_
Yandangshan, _no data_
Wenling, _there is a_ Wenling county level city
Taizhou, Huangyan District
Linhai, _there is a_ Linhai county level city
Sanmen, apparently Sanmen *County*-Shanghai - 2:57, G7596
Ninghai, _there is a_ Ninghai *County *-Shanghai - 2:21, G7504
Fenghua, _there is a_ Fenghua county level city
Yunlong?
Ningbo East, Jiangdong District
Ningbo, Haishu District
Zhuangqiao, _no data_
Yuyao North, _no data_
Shangyu North, _there is a_ Shangyu District
Shaoxing North, _no data_
Hangzhou East, Jianggan District
Yuhang, Yuhang District
Haining West, Haining county-level city
Tongxiang, Tongxiang county-level city
Jiaxing South, _no data_
Jiashan South, Jiashan* County*-Shanghai - 0:23, G7302 and others
Jinshan North, Jinshan District
Songjiang South, Songjiang District


----------



## ccdk

*Costal HSRs all profitable*

http://news.chinaso.com/detail/20150306/1000200003269961425638749538783661_1.html

The news listed the HSR lines that saw profits last year:

Beijing - Tianjin, yoy growth 12%
Beijing - Shanghai, yoy growth 26%
Shanghai - Nanjing, yoy growth 12%
Shanghai - Hangzhou, yoy growth 32%
Hangzhou - Shenzhen, yoy growth 69%
Shenzhen - Guangzhou, yoy growth 48%

Overall the HSR network carried 908million passenger trips, a 35.1% increase. The Beijing - Tianjin, pearl river delta and yangtze river delta HSRs are all close to full capacity. It is mentioned that, if a 100 pairs of trains run on a given HSR line, the line is basically at its full capacity. Currently there are 108 pairs run on Beijing - Tianjin line, BJ - SH 113 pairs, BJ - GZ 126 pairs (in some sections), SH - HZ 108 pairs, all 'over the capacity'.
Therefore it is vital to plan future constructions, and some key regions will plan the 2nd, or even 3rd HSR lines.
Number of passengers taking HSR has grown from 4.8% in 2007 to 38.5% in 2014.
------------------------------------------
So it's the # of trains run on a line that is taken into consideration when they discuss "full capacity". What about # of passengers carried on the trains? If they run a 100 pairs of trains at 70% full each train, why not run 70 pairs of trains each at 100% full?


----------



## Pansori

ccdk said:


> http://news.chinaso.com/detail/20150306/1000200003269961425638749538783661_1.html
> 
> The news listed the HSR lines that saw profits last year:
> 
> Beijing - Tianjin, yoy growth 12%
> Beijing - Shanghai, yoy growth 26%
> Shanghai - Nanjing, yoy growth 12%
> Shanghai - Hangzhou, yoy growth 32%
> Hangzhou - Shenzhen, yoy growth 69%
> Shenzhen - Guangzhou, yoy growth 48%
> 
> Overall the HSR network carried 908million passenger trips, a 35.1% increase. The Beijing - Tianjin, pearl river delta and yangtze river delta HSRs are all close to full capacity. It is mentioned that, if a 100 pairs of trains run on a given HSR line, the line is basically at its full capacity. Currently there are 108 pairs run on Beijing - Tianjin line, BJ - SH 113 pairs, BJ - GZ 126 pairs (in some sections), SH - HZ 108 pairs, all 'over the capacity'.
> Therefore it is vital to plan future constructions, and some key regions will plan the 2nd, or even 3rd HSR lines.
> Number of passengers taking HSR has grown from 4.8% in 2007 to 38.5% in 2014.
> ------------------------------------------
> So it's the # of trains run on a line that is taken into consideration when they discuss "full capacity". What about # of passengers carried on the trains? If they run a 100 pairs of trains at 70% full each train, why not run 70 pairs of trains each at 100% full?


Besides the number of trains we should keep in mind that some trains are made of 8 cars while others have 16. There probably is some capacity still.


----------



## Silly_Walks

ccdk said:


> Number of passengers taking HSR has grown from 4.8% in 2007 to 38.5% in 2014.


4.8% of what? Total population? All train travel?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

ccdk said:


> So it's the # of trains run on a line that is taken into consideration when they discuss "full capacity". What about # of passengers carried on the trains? If they run a 100 pairs of trains at 70% full each train, why not run 70 pairs of trains each at 100% full?


Because filling these last 30 % would create a lot of problems:

20 % seats are unwanted middle seats - the last of 5. People value these less, so if all they can get for the same price is a middle seat, many although not all will fly or not travel.
The trains will NOT be all equally 70 % full. Some will be over 70 %, some under. If you cancel trains, the load of the most wanted trains will get closer to 100 %
The less wanted trains are also serving as overflow for the people who find their preferred trains full. If you cancel the emptier trains, then when the preferred trains get full, people looking for second choice trains will find that these have been cancelled or are also full.

Now listing the stations of Beijing-Shanghai railway:

Beijing South, Fengtai District
Langfang, Guangyang District
Tianjin South, Xiping District
Cangzhou West, Yunhe District
Dezhou East, Decheng District
Jinan West, Huaiyin District
Taian, Taishan District
Qufu East, Qufu county level city
Tengzhou East, Tengzhou county level city
Zaozhuang, _no data, but only Districts exist_
Xuzhou East, Gulou District
Suzhou East, Yongqiao District
Bengbu South, Longzihu District
Dingyuan, Dingyuan *County*
Chuzhou, Langya District
Nanjing South, Yuhuatai District
Zhenjiang South, Jingkou District
Danyang North, Danyang county level city
Changzhou North, Tianning District
Wuxi East, Xishan District
Suzhou North, Xiangcheng District
Kunshan South, Kunshan county level city
Now consider how practical it is to serve county.
Municipalities and provincial capitals to Shanghai are as follows:

Beijing South-Shanghai: fastest 4:48, G1 and G3; 38 G trains daily; departures 7:00 to 17:50, arrivals 12:37 to 23:28; longest gap in departures 0:54, 13:06 to 14:00
Tianjin South-Shanghai: fastest 4:59, G115; 11 G trains daily, departures 8:19 to 17:58, arrivals 13:21 to 23:08; longest gap in departures 2:24, 13:42 to 16:06
Jinan West-Shanghai: fastest 3:21, G13 and G15; 48 G trains daily, departures 7:26 to 19:37, arrivals 11:28 to 23:28; longest gap in departures 0:48, 7:52 to 8:40
Nanjing South, fastest 1:07, G1 and others; 134 G and D trains daily, departures 3:00 to 23:34, arrivals 4:22 to 0:57; longest gap in departures 2:54, 3:00 to 5:54
But compare services from Dingyuan County:

Dingyuan-Shanghai: fastest 1:50, G411; 6 G and D trains daily, departures 8:34 to 19:04, arrivals 11:11 to 22:04; longest gap in departures 3:28, 8:58 to 12:26
Dingyuan-Kunshan South: fastest 2:15, D5431; 2 D trains daily, departures 8:34 and 19:04, arrivals 19:04 and 21:44
Dingyuan-Suzhou North: fastest 1:22, G411; 6 G and D trains daily, departures 8:34 to 19:04, arrivals 10:35 to 21:30; longest gap in departures 3:28, 8:58 to 12:26
Dingyuan-Wuxi East: fastest 1:32, G7291; 3 G and D trains daily, departures 8:34 to 19:04, arrivals 10:22 to 21:13; longest gap in departures 10:06, 8:58 to 19:04
Dingyuan-Changzhou North: fastest 1:05, G111; 5 G and D trains daily, departures 8:34 to 19:04, arrivals 10:02 to 20:53; longest gap in departures 3:39, 12:26 to 16:05
Dingyuan-Danyang North: fastest 0:58, G1227; 3 G and D trains daily, departures 8:34 to 19:04, arrivals 9:48 to 20:40; longest gap in departures 7:31, 8:34 to 16:05
Dingyuan-Zhenjiang South: only D5431, 1:02, departs 8:34, arrives 9:36
Dingyuan-Nanjing South: fastest 0:31, G111 and others; 7 G and D trains daily, departures 8:34 to 19:04, arrivals 9:14 to 20:11; longest gap in departures 3:28, 8:58 to 12:26
Dingyuan-Chuzhou: fastest 0:18, G7291; 3 G and D trains daily, departures 8:58 to 19:04, arrivals 9:16 to 19:24; longest gap in departures 9:39, 8:58 to 18:37

Dingyuan-Beijing South: fastest 3:39, G118; 2 G trains daily (?), departures 8:16 and 12:05, arrivals 12:07 and 15:44
Dingyuan-Langfang: fastest 3:29, G108; 2 G and D trains daily, departures 9:55 and 12:24, arrivals 13:24 and 18:03
Dingyuan-Tianjin South: fastest 3:09, G108; 2 G and D trains daily, departures 9:55 and 12:57, arrivals 13:04 and 18:32
Dingyuan-Cangzhou West
Dingyuan-Dezhou East
Dingyuan-Jinan West
Dingyuan-Taian
Dingyuan-Qufu East
Dingyuan-Tengzhou East
Dingyuan-Zaozhuang
Dingyuan-Xuzhou East
Dingyuan-Suzhou East
Dingyuan-Bengbu South


----------



## foxmulder

Silly_Walks said:


> 4.8% of what? Total population? All train travel?


"the proportion of railway passenger traffic volume"





Another interesting stats is, 2014 brake the record by witnessing construction of *8427 km* of new railways.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> "the proportion of railway passenger traffic volume"


Passenger count, or passenger-km?


----------



## foxmulder

foxmulder said:


> With high speed rail network, it is planned that "travel time to Beijing" will be decreased significantly. There was a map with circles centered around Beijing with targeted travel times. It was shared in this thread, too. So, what I am trying to say, lines between Beijing and other significant cities tend to be 350km/h standard. I guess we just have to wait and see. There are news articles saying different speeds for the line.


I found that map:










So, if this map is anything to go by, Beijing-Hefei is targeted to be around 7 hours which is very ambitious and doable only with 350km/h. The Beijing-Hefei part is already 350km/h standard due to being part of Beijing-Shanghai high speed rail. 

And, apparently, the budget for it was around 110 billion yuan which sounds about right for 350km/h standard.


----------



## Sunfuns

I've seen this map or very similar before. I believe it's from before the general slowdown of Chinese HSR and indeed relies on 350 km/h operations.


----------



## ccdk

Adjust the speed back to 350km/h is not in the short term plan. The boss of CRC, Sheng Guangzu, recently said in an interview that 300km/h is 'appropriate for this stage of the development'.
http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2015-03-06/043831574067.shtml?cre=sinapc&mod=g&loc=30&r=h&rfunc=-1


----------



## ccdk

foxmulder said:


> So, if this map is anything to go by, Beijing-Hefei is targeted to be around 7 hours which is very ambitious and doable only with 350km/h. The Beijing-Hefei part is already 350km/h standard due to being part of Beijing-Shanghai high speed rail.
> 
> And, apparently, the budget for it was around 110 billion yuan which sounds about right for 350km/h standard.


According to that map Beijing - Hefei is within the 4-hour circle.


----------



## foxmulder

ccdk said:


> According to that map Beijing - Hefei is within the 4-hour circle.


I meant* Beijing to Fuzhou*.


----------



## foxmulder

Sunfuns said:


> I've seen this map or very similar before. I believe it's from before the general slowdown of Chinese HSR and indeed relies on 350 km/h operations.


Yes, but that is not the point. I am speculating on Hefei-Fuzhou standard based on it.


----------



## dodge321

Hefei-Fuzhou is 350km standard and will be operating at 300km, I think we can be pretty sure about that.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Sunfuns said:


> I've seen this map or very similar before. I believe it's from before the general slowdown of Chinese HSR and indeed relies on 350 km/h operations.


Indeed. Beijing-Shanghai is 4 hours on map. Actual time is currently 4:48.


----------



## Pansori

Can someone confirm what is the actual maximum operating speed on Guiyang-Guangzhou line? On the timetable I see there is one non-stop service (D211) between Guiyang and Guangzhou which takes 4:09 to complete the 846km journey. That means it goes at an average speed of 205km/h which suggests that the maximum speed should be in the range of 250km/h. Is this the case? If so this might be one of the few (the only?) lines where D trains actually go at a maximum design speed.

Or is this line actually designed as a 300km/h line but after the slowdown made into a 250km/h line?


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## voyager221

*248km/h displayed on CRH2A running on this line been photoed*



Pansori said:


> Can someone confirm what is the actual maximum operating speed on Guiyang-Guangzhou line? On the timetable I see there is one non-stop service (D211) between Guiyang and Guangzhou which takes 4:09 to complete the 846km journey. That means it goes at an average speed of 205km/h which suggests that the maximum speed should be in the range of 250km/h. Is this the case? If so this might be one of the few (the only?) lines where D trains actually go at a maximum design speed.
> 
> Or is this line actually designed as a 300km/h line but after the slowdown made into a 250km/h line?


New to SkyscraperCity community, been following CRH on a few chinese railway fans forums (mainly on bbs.ourail.com) for years. 
Found one post on bbs.hasea.com(海子网) may be helpful
bbs.hasea.com/thread-525988-1-1.
Add html at the end


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## voyager221

Guiyangbei(贵阳北)--Guiyang(贵阳)-----Longlibei(龙里北)----------------------------------Sanshuinan(三水南)---Guangzhounan(广州南)

From what i read from a post on ourail.com, the speed limit between Guiyangbei(贵阳北) to Guiyang(贵阳) is 80km/h to 100km/h;
The speed limit between Guiyang(贵阳) to Longlibei(龙里北) is 160km/h
Actual traveling speed without stopping between Guiyangbei(贵阳北) to Longlibei(龙里北) section (42km) is about 100km/h;
The speed limit between Longlibei(龙里北) to Sanshuinan(三水南) is 250km/h, traveling speed without stopping varis between 210km/h to 230km/h;
Then last section (about 52km) from Sanshuinan(三水南) to Guangzhounan(广州南) has a speed limit below 100km/h, and takes 36mins, so traveling speed about 87km/h;
There you go, i believe it's not too far from what's actually happening right now.
After a few mouths of running, when CRH gets more confidence, they should be able to lift the cap of speed limit of those two slow sections.
When there's a huge demand for the higher speed, they may even increase the speed limit of the majority section to 300km/h with some work(maybe signalling, superelevation...)
We can only hope.


----------



## voyager221

Pansori said:


> Or is this line actually designed as a 300km/h line but after the slowdown made into a 250km/h line?


I would say yes and no.
The track centres, curve radius, area section of tunnels all comply to requirements for 300km/h, but the signalling and superelevation have all been cut down for 250km/h halfway the construction.
So without the upgrade, the line is stuck at 250km/h, you can understand why there're a lot people not happy with those who made the decision.:bash:


----------



## Pansori

voyager221 said:


> I would say yes and no.
> The track centres, curve radius, area section of tunnels all comply to requirements for 300km/h, but the signalling and superelevation have all been cut down for 250km/h halfway the construction.
> So without the upgrade, the line is stuck at 250km/h, you can understand why there're a lot people not happy with those who made the decision.:bash:


A bit of a weird decision then. That doesn't sound like a good saving cost-wise since almost all of the most expensive technical attributes are in place anyway. Even the 350km/h rolling stock wouldn't make much difference int terms of cost compared to 250km/h.


----------



## voyager221

Pansori said:


> A bit of a weird decision then. That doesn't sound like a good saving cost-wise since almost all of the most expensive technical attributes are in place anyway. Even the 350km/h rolling stock wouldn't make much difference int terms of cost compared to 250km/h.


Unfortunately GuiGuang line is not the only line got this treatment.
Lanzhou(兰州)Xinjing(新疆) second line was desighed and built as 350km/h initially.
With hundreds miles of straight track, It could have been the perfect place to let CIT500 really have a go. A lot hardcore high speed railway fans even could see it beating French 574km/h record.
Right now most trains on the line are rarely running beyond 200km/h.
The decision had something to do with political necessity at the moment, nowadays people are still speculating who were actually behind it.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

voyager221 said:


> Then last section (about 52km) from Sanshuinan(三水南) to Guangzhounan(广州南) has a speed limit below 100km/h, and takes 36mins, so traveling speed about 87km/h;


Guangzhou South-Sanshui South, 51 km, is covered in 31 minutes by D2842.
Guangzhou South-Guangzhou North, 47 km, is covered in 17 minutes by many G trains.

Why is Guangzhou-Sanshui high speed railway so slow?


----------



## voyager221

chornedsnorkack said:


> Guangzhou South-Sanshui South, 51 km, is covered in 31 minutes by D2842.
> Guangzhou South-Guangzhou North, 47 km, is covered in 17 minutes by many G trains.
> 
> Why is Guangzhou-Sanshui high speed railway so slow?


My guess, new line, safety redundency mindset, etc.

Permissible line speed between SanshuiSouth and GuangzhouSouth is 200km/h except at 10(11 on the other direction) places with speed limits 135km/h to 170km/h due to small radius curves.

Non stopping trains should be able to go through FoshanWest station without slowing down if I read the diagram of FoshanWest station correctly.

There's huge potential for improving traveling speed.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Overnight high speed trains*

The overnight high speed trains were announced for New Year, till 15th instant.

How has the experience of overnight high speed trains been?
Has any consideration been given to continue any overnight high speed trains after the holidays?


----------



## kunming tiger

China steps up weaving high-speed railway network

In the report on the work of the government this year, Premier Li Keqiang said that the central government will invest over 800 billion yuan ($127.76 billion) in railway construction and open over 8,000 kilometers to railway traffic.

All cities with more than 500,000 population will be connected by high-speed railway by 2015, it said.

As an important part of China's railway network plan, the high-speed railway which connects Zhengzhou and Xuzhou will connect Beijing-Shanghai railway and Beijing-Guangzhou railway together and also connect China's central city Zhengzhou to Xinjiang, CCTV reported.

The Zhengzhou-Xuzhou high-speed railway covers a distance of 361.9 km and has nine stations. The speed of the trains will reach 350 km per hour and the investment in this project will total 49.7 billion yuan, according to the reports.

Liu Guanying, the deputy commander of the project, said 61 percent of the construction with 29.5 billion yuan investment has finished. "The construction of this project will connect the central and the western area with the central and the eastern area which will contribute to the transportation in Europe and Asia," Liu said.

Sun Gongxin, the president's special assistant of China Railway Construction Corporation, said that the focus this year is on the ongoing project that connects Shanghai and Kunming covering more than


----------



## kunming tiger

China's high-speed rail traffic to grow within 20 years

BEIJING -- By focusing on passenger needs, and efficient operations, China's high-speed rail (HSR) traffic is expected to continue rapid growth over the coming two decades, said a World Bank paper.

China has the world's largest HSR network, but passenger numbers have been the subject of debate.

A World Bank paper released Friday finds initial traffic volumes are promising, with traffic growing from 128 million trips in 2008 to 672 million trips in 2013. In 2013, China's high-speed rail lines carried more passenger-kilometers (214 billion) than the rest of the world combined, about 2.5 times the volume in Japan and four times the volume in France.

China is a very large country with a high population density, widely spaced large cities, and economic rebalancing strategies go for the long-term success of HSR.

A survey by the World Bank, China Railway Corporation and the Third Railway Survey and Design Institute indicates that a large proportion of high-speed train passengers are between the ages of 25 and 55, with many using the HSR for business travel.

The survey shows the average income of high-speed train passengers was 35 to 50 percent higher than that of conventional train passengers.

"Understanding and addressing passenger needs are critical to achieving the full impact of the HSR network. While initial results are encouraging, HSR remains a major investment that requires high traffic density to be justified economically and financially," said Gerald Ollivier, a World Bank senior transport specialist and co-author of the paper.

"This can be achieved by working closely with cities to develop areas around stations in a way that leverages the gain in accessibility that HSR provides," Ollivier said.

It is important to optimize train frequencies and city pairing, introduce flexible ticket prices reflecting peak and off-peak periods, and introduce convenient e-ticketing services. "By focusing on these aspects, and on the efficient and effective operation of the network, HSR in China can continue to experience substantial growth for many years to come," he added.

The World Bank has provided loans to support six railway projects in China.

The Lanxin (Lanzhou-Urumqi) High-Speed Railway crosses a vast expanse of the Gobi Desert and windy areas -- a major technical feat -- and is the first high-speed railway of Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region.

With this railway, travel time between Lanzhou,capital of Gansu province and Urumqi,capital of Xinjiang will be cut from the current 21 hours to 8 hours or less.

The operation of the new line will complement the current railway networks and greatly improve Xinjiang's transport capabilities to Central Asian and European countries and strengthen its role of being the transportation hub along the Silk Road Economic Belt.


----------



## dodge321

chornedsnorkack said:


> The overnight high speed trains were announced for New Year, till 15th instant.
> 
> How has the experience of overnight high speed trains been?
> Has any consideration been given to continue any overnight high speed trains after the holidays?


Actually the overnight D trains that were opened for CNY will continue running after 15 March. Also new overnight high speed routes including Beijing-Nanning and Beijing-Guiyang will be introduced, though these two will run four days a week.


----------



## dodge321

Opps actually all overnight D trains will run four days a week. (S M - - - F S).

Also Nanjing will open overnight D trains to Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Dalian and Harbin, according to this article.

http://news.xdkb.net/society/2015-03/10/content_823607.htm


----------



## voyager221

kunming tiger said:


> China steps up weaving high-speed railway network
> 
> In the report on the work of the government this year, Premier Li Keqiang said that the central government will invest over 800 billion yuan ($127.76 billion) in railway construction and open over 8,000 kilometers to railway traffic.
> 
> *All cities with more than 500,000 population will be connected by high-speed railway by 2015, it said.*
> 
> As an important part of China's railway network plan, the high-speed railway which connects Zhengzhou and Xuzhou will connect Beijing-Shanghai railway and Beijing-Guangzhou railway together and also connect China's central city Zhengzhou to Xinjiang, CCTV reported.
> 
> The Zhengzhou-Xuzhou high-speed railway covers a distance of 361.9 km and has nine stations. The speed of the trains will reach 350 km per hour and the investment in this project will total 49.7 billion yuan, according to the reports.
> 
> Liu Guanying, the deputy commander of the project, said 61 percent of the construction with 29.5 billion yuan investment has finished. "The construction of this project will connect the central and the western area with the central and the eastern area which will contribute to the transportation in Europe and Asia," Liu said.
> 
> Sun Gongxin, the president's special assistant of China Railway Construction Corporation, said that the focus this year is on the ongoing project that connects Shanghai and Kunming covering more than


Strange claim. If the number hasn't been messed up, then either a different way to calculate city population was used or our "Salesman" premier knows little about ongoing HSR construction and planning.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

voyager221 said:


> Strange claim. If the number hasn't been messed up, then either a different way to calculate city population was used or our "Salesman" premier knows little about ongoing HSR construction and planning.


All options are likely.

About that city population... take the city Li Keqiang should know about. His home is the only county with a station on Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway.

Chuzhou prefecture level city. As of 2010 census, 7 260 240 citizens.
And just 3 937 868 inhabitants.
Now, the "metro" and "urban" population of Chuzhou is classified as 562 321 people.
But the "urban density" of 400 per square km shows it is not actually urban.
Now my analysis - population from now on rounded to thousands:

Langya District - 310 000, 1715 per sq km
Nanqiao District - 252 000, 212 per square km
Tianchang sub-prefecture level city - 603 000, 341 per square km
Mingguang county level city - 533 000, 228 per square km
Laian County - 432 000, 292 per square km
Quanjiao County - 384 000, 244 per square km
Dingyuan County - 779 000, 260 per square km
Fengyang County - 645 000, 331 per square km

I see no reason to classify Nanqiao District as urban - the population is less dense than any county in Chuzhou.
This leaves Chuzhou with population under 300 000, all in Langya.
And Dingyuan County is more populous than the two Districts combined.


----------



## voyager221

chornedsnorkack said:


> All options are likely.
> 
> About that city population... take the city Li Keqiang should know about. His home is the only county with a station on Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway.
> 
> Chuzhou prefecture level city. As of 2010 census, 7 260 240 citizens.
> And just 3 937 868 inhabitants.
> Now, the "metro" and "urban" population of Chuzhou is classified as 562 321 people.
> But the "urban density" of 400 per square km shows it is not actually urban.
> Now my analysis - population from now on rounded to thousands:
> 
> Langya District - 310 000, 1715 per sq km
> Nanqiao District - 252 000, 212 per square km
> Tianchang sub-prefecture level city - 603 000, 341 per square km
> Mingguang county level city - 533 000, 228 per square km
> Laian County - 432 000, 292 per square km
> Quanjiao County - 384 000, 244 per square km
> Dingyuan County - 779 000, 260 per square km
> Fengyang County - 645 000, 331 per square km
> 
> I see no reason to classify Nanqiao District as urban - the population is less dense than any county in Chuzhou.
> This leaves Chuzhou with population under 300 000, all in Langya.
> And Dingyuan County is more populous than the two Districts combined.


Good point.
The problem is there are still too many big cities won't see the HSR service by the end of this year. Some of them will be lucky to see the beginning of the construction this year. And they all look like to me having urban population more than half million .
Just name a few:
淮安(Huai'an) 襄阳(Xiangyang) 临沂(Linyi) 阜阳(Fuyang) 银川(Yinchuan) 赣州(Ganzhou) 遵义(Zunyi) 常德(Changde) 南阳(Nanyang) 宜宾(Yibin)


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## voyager221

Do I need to have more than 10 posts before posting the link of a video?
Found some very detailed videos taken on board CRH2A first day in service on GuiyangGuangzhou(贵广) HSR line.


----------



## ccdk

*GuangZhou - Shenzhen - HongKong HSR*

http://news.takungpao.com.hk/paper/q/2014/0325/2376536.html









- Black marking: GZ - SZ railway
- Green marking: GZ - SZ intercity HSR
- Red marking: GZ - SZ - HK HSR (purple: HK section)

brief translation:
- Futian station can be operational by year end 2015
- tunnel construction has entered HK from SZ
- by year end next year the line to Kowloon can be operational (detail plan TBD)

-----------------------
A bit sceptical on the progress of the HK section, as the news posted in Hong Kong/China HSR says there could be further delays into 2017.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

voyager221 said:


> Good point.
> The problem is there are still too many big cities won't see the HSR service by the end of this year. Some of them will be lucky to see the beginning of the construction this year. And they all look like to me having urban population more than half million .
> Just name a few:
> 淮安(Huai'an)


Checking from that:
Yes.
As for population:
Qinghe District - 530 000 people, density 4071
Qingpu District - 330 000 people, density 1120
Clearly over half a million in a genuine urban centre.

As for rail: Huaian is on Xinyi-Changxing railway.
Single track. Opened in 2005. Crosses Yangtze by ferry between Jingjiang and Jiangyin.

Hm... would the Changxing-Xinyi route be a sensible path for a second parallel Shanghai-Beijing high speed railway?


----------



## hhzz

*Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR,March 10,2015*

CRH380A train comes to Xinjiang. 

This's the CRH380A train runs on Lanzhou-Urumqi line for the first time. 

1.Hami,Xinjiang








2.








3.









---------
xinhuanet


----------



## voyager221

chornedsnorkack said:


> Checking from that:
> Yes.
> As for population:
> Qinghe District - 530 000 people, density 4071
> Qingpu District - 330 000 people, density 1120
> Clearly over half a million in a genuine urban centre.
> 
> As for rail: Huaian is on Xinyi-Changxing railway.
> Single track. Opened in 2005. Crosses Yangtze by ferry between Jingjiang and Jiangyin.
> 
> Hm... would the Changxing-Xinyi route be a sensible path for a second parallel Shanghai-Beijing high speed railway?


Too early to tell about JingHu second HSR, although there are several 250km/h HSR already under construction or will start the construction very soon in north JiangSu Province, namely XuSuHuaiYan(徐宿淮盐), LianHuaiYangZhen(连淮扬镇), LianYan(连盐), YanTong(盐通), HuTong(沪通).
Don't know if they will mainly serve for regional traffic or be able to divert some traffic away from XuzhouBengbu(徐州蚌埠) section of JingHu HSR.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

voyager221 said:


> although there are several 250km/h HSR already under construction or will start the construction very soon in north JiangSu Province, namely XuSuHuaiYan(徐宿淮盐), LianHuaiYangZhen(连淮扬镇), LianYan(连盐), YanTong(盐通), HuTong(沪通).


Which of these five are already under construction, and where do they go?


voyager221 said:


> Don't know if they will mainly serve for regional traffic or be able to divert some traffic away from XuzhouBengbu(徐州蚌埠) section of JingHu HSR.


Trains, or passengers?

Will there be people who now travel a long way to the nearest HSR station, who will be diverted when HSR is opened nearby?


----------



## voyager221

chornedsnorkack said:


> Which of these five are already under construction, and where do they go?


2,3,5 started, 1,4 this year

When all fininshed, they will connect most towns and cities in north Jiansu Province with Shanghai and Zhenjiang(镇江)(then Nanjing).




chornedsnorkack said:


> Trains, or passengers?
> 
> Will there be people who now travel a long way to the nearest HSR station, who will be diverted when HSR is opened nearby?


All these new railways are dedicated passenger lines.
Xuzhou to Bengbu section is the most congested section along Jinghu HSR, whether these new lines will create more new passengers for the Jinghu HSR or divert some existing passenger to the new lines still to be seen.


----------



## voyager221

*"On board Guiguang(贵广) HSR CRH2A train" copyright Chan Louis*






Video covering Zhaoqing East(肇庆东) to Huaiji(怀集)

Date：2014/12/26
Train：D2806次（Guangzhou South→Guiyang North）

Aided by Google Map, the timeline as follows:
https://goo.gl/maps/abDe3
During the first minute, 200km/h NanGuang(南广) railway running alongside then turning away to the southwest
01:48 entering 8051 metres long Beilingshan(北岭山) tunnel at 140km/h
you can skip to 04:25
04:25 exiting the tunnel, average speed 185km/h
06:58 Chan Louis anouncing current speed 242km/h
A few short tunnels and two long(3km+) tunnels

https://goo.gl/maps/oEUAC
11:26 Shijian(石涧) viaduct over G55 expressway(二广高速), running alongside till 12:12
13:08 crossing over Xunjiang(绥江) river

https://goo.gl/maps/CrOjR
14:16 passing through Guangning(广宁) station

https://goo.gl/maps/2qKHt
15:21 - 15:36 passing southern edge of Guangning city(can't see from this side the train), 15:29 passing over S350 road leading to citycentre
15:43 entering a short tunnel then 3km long Jinding(金顶) tunnel? followed by 5.2km tunnel

after 5 short tunnels

https://goo.gl/maps/KTdfz
18:53 crossing over Gushui(古水) river

13 short tunnels closely followed by each other

https://goo.gl/maps/lPyQh
21:90 passing Aozai(坳仔) town crossing over S263 road
9 short tunnels

https://goo.gl/maps/HHWfe
22:47 crossing over Xuijiang(绥江) river second time
5 short and close-followed tunnels

https://goo.gl/maps/CAo0a
24:48 approuching Huaiji(怀集) station, 25:03 crossing over the slip road linking G55 and S263(leading to Huaiji towncentre)

28:24 fully stopped at Huaiji station, 
Last 4.5km took over 3.5 minutes, maybe a very relaxing timetable was adopted at the early stage of the service.


----------



## voyager221

*"On board Guiguang(贵广) HSR CRH2A train" copyright Chan Louis*






Huaiji(怀集) to Hezhou(贺州)
Date：2014/12/26
Train：D2806次（Guangzhou South→Guiyang North）


----------



## voyager221

*"On board Guiguang(贵广) HSR CRH2A train" copyright Chan Louis*






Hezhou(贺州) to somewhere halfway between Zhongshan West(钟山西) and Gongcheng(恭城)
Seems most time the train's running at about 245km/h
Date：2014/12/26
Train：D2806次（Guangzhou South→Guiyang North）


----------



## voyager221

*"On board Guiguang(贵广) HSR CRH2A train" copyright Chan Louis*

Return journey






Guilin North(桂林北) to Yangshuo(阳朔)
Date：2014/12/29
Train：D2805次（Guiyang North→Guangzhou South）


----------



## voyager221

*"On board Guiguang(贵广) HSR CRH2A train" copyright Chan Louis*

Return journey






Hezhou(贺州) to Guangning(广宁)
Date：2014/12/29
Train：D2805次（Guiyang North→Guangzhou South）


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Videos like these are the best part of these threads. I've taken a bus from Yangshuo to Guilin, I'm sure the train is much safer and less scary than the bus!


----------



## luhai

voyager221 said:


> Strange claim. If the number hasn't been messed up, then either a different way to calculate city population was used or our "Salesman" premier knows little about ongoing HSR construction and planning.


Except it's not true, just media been stupid. Here is from the actual report



> ....
> 增加公共产品有效投资。确保完成“十二五”规划重点建设任务，启动实施一批新的重大工程项目。主要是：棚户区和危房改造、城市地下管网等民生项目，中西部铁路和公路、内河航道等重大交通项目，水利、高标准农田等农业项目，信息、电力、油气等重大网络项目，清洁能源及油气矿产资源保障项目，传统产业技术改造等项目，节能环保和生态建设项目。
> 
> 今年中央预算内投资增加到4776亿元，但政府不唱“独角戏”，要更大激发民间投资活力，引导社会资本投向更多领域。铁路投资要保持在8000亿元以上，新投产里程8000公里以上，在全国基本实现高速公路电子不停车收费联网，使交通真正成为发展的先行官。重大水利工程已开工的57个项目要加快建设，今年再开工27个项目，在建重大水利工程投资规模超过8000亿元。棚改、铁路、水利等投资多箭齐发，重点向中西部地区倾斜，使巨大的内需得到更多释放。
> 
> 加快推进农业现代化。坚持“三农”重中之重地位不动摇，加快转变农业发展方式，让农业更强、农民更富、农村更美。
> 
> 今年粮食产量要稳定在1.1万亿斤以上，保障粮食安全和主要农产品供给。
> ....


http://finance.sina.com.cn/china/hgjj/20150305/105721651935.shtml
And you can what the video of the report, the bit about railroad is at 1:00:30






No where in there was the and there claims about connecting all cities above 500,000.

So where did that thing come from.....

Here is a news article"summarizing" the work report:



> 根据政府工作报告规划，今年我国的铁路投资要保持在8000亿元以上，新投产里程8000公里以上，2015年中国高铁将连通所有人口50万以上城市，形成一张覆盖全国的高速铁路网。


Here is where connecting all cities above 500,000 came from a "summary" that add things that wasn't in the report itself. Which is understandable for someone making this mistake. Since it's long boring ass report, and I would made that mistake too had I been tasked to fish out sound bites from it, however what's bad is it's been cited all over the place, even though it was never in the report itself. This just shows how many journalists actually read/listened through the full report to fact check before hitting the copy-paste buttons.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

voyager221 said:


> 2,3,5 started, 1,4 this year
> 
> When all fininshed, they will connect most towns and cities in north Jiansu Province with Shanghai and Zhenjiang(镇江)(then Nanjing).


"Lianhuaiyangzhen", "Lianyan", "HuTong". Where specifically do they go?



voyager221 said:


> All these new railways are dedicated passenger lines.
> Xuzhou to Bengbu section is the most congested section along Jinghu HSR, whether these new lines will create more new passengers for the Jinghu HSR or divert some existing passenger to the new lines still to be seen.


How can they create more passengers to Jinghu? Where do they go to Jinghu HSR?


----------



## voyager221

luhai said:


> Except it's not true, just media been stupid. Here is from the actual report
> 
> 
> http://finance.sina.com.cn/china/hgjj/20150305/105721651935.shtml
> And you can what the video of the report, the bit about railroad is at 1:00:30
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No where in there was the and there claims about connecting all cities above 500,000.
> 
> So where did that thing come from.....
> 
> Here is a news article"summarizing" the work report:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is where connecting all cities above 500,000 came from a "summary" that add things that wasn't in the report itself. Which is understandable for someone making this mistake. Since it's long boring ass report, and I would made that mistake too had I been tasked to fish out sound bites from it, however what's bad is it's been cited all over the place, even though it was never in the report itself. This just shows how many journalists actually read/listened through the full report to fact check before hitting the copy-paste buttons.


Thanks for the clarification. It beggars belief the media not only put words into the premier's mouth also lacks basic knowledge and common sense.


----------



## voyager221

chornedsnorkack said:


> "Lianhuaiyangzhen", "Lianyan", "HuTong". Where specifically do they go?











A picture is worth a thousand words
It's bit outdated, but giving you a basic idea.


----------



## voyager221

voyager221 said:


> Video covering Zhaoqing East(肇庆东) to Huaiji(怀集)
> 
> Date：2014/12/26
> Train：D2806次（Guangzhou South→Guiyang North）
> 
> Aided by Google Map, the timeline as follows:


Updated timeline and Google Map references.


----------



## ccdk

*All provinces will be covered by HSR, Yinchuan - Xi'an HSR to commence construction later this year*

http://www.nx.xinhuanet.com/2015-03/14/c_1114637901.htm

NDRC approved the project:
Length: 595 km
Investment: 16 billion yuan
Designed speed: not mentioned
Expected completion date: not mentioned


----------



## voyager221

ccdk said:


> http://www.nx.xinhuanet.com/2015-03/14/c_1114637901.htm
> 
> NDRC approved the project:
> Length: 595 km
> Investment: 16 billion yuan
> Designed speed: not mentioned
> Expected completion date: not mentioned


From a lot information floating around on the web, it's most likely 250km/h with ballasted tracks.
I suspect 16 billion yuan investment only covering 185km within Ninxia.


----------



## kunming tiger

Sino-Thai accord reached on rail project engineering

Sino-Thai accord reached on rail project engineering
By ZHAO YANRONG (China Daily)
Updated: 2015-03-14 08:32
CommentsPrintMail
LargeMediumSmall
Sino-Thai accord reached on rail project engineering
A view of a railway track in Honghe Prefecture, Yunnan province, in a 2014 file photo. The station dating back to 1910s is said to be one of China's oldest railway stations. [Photo/IC]


China and Thailand are to cooperate on a prominent form of contracting agreement relating to building a railway linking the two countries.
The agreement, known as an engineering procurement construction pattern, will cover a standard gauge dual-track system.

Further details on investment and funding are likely to be finalized in May, Thai officials said.

The two delegations met this week in Nong Khai in northeastern Thailand for the third round of talks on the Sino-Thai railway cooperation project.

Reports said officials visited Nong Khai to inspect locations for the project. Nong Khai province has high potential to become an interchange for passengers connecting between trains from Kunming in southwestern China to services running to Vientiane, the capital of Laos.

The long-anticipated project, which will see trains running at up to 180 km an hour, has been postponed because of political turbulence in Thailand.

The signing of the latest agreement was witnessed by Premier Li Keqiang and his Thai counterpart, Prayut Chan-o-cha, in December during the fifth Greater Mekong Subregion Economic Cooperation summit in Bangkok.

Under the agreement, Chinese companies will also design and build rail routes to ease transportation into and out of Bangkok－the second-largest city in Southeast Asia after Jakarta. The 734-km project will connect Nong Khai province with the Thai capital. A 133-km branch line will be built to the eastern Thai province of Rayong.

Prajin Juntong, Thailand's transport minister, said the Thai and Chinese governments agreed to cooperate on an engineering procurement construction pattern at the meeting and also discussed issues including investment, human resource development and technology transfer.

Thailand will carry out an environmental impact assessment and be in charge of land acquisition for the construction work, Bangkok Post reported.

The two countries also reached agreement on sharing the work. Details of this will be discussed again at the fourth meeting of the joint working group in Kunming, Yunnan province, from May 6 to 8, Prajin said.

An official source familiar with the project said that under the engineering procurement agreement, Thailand will be responsible for the civil engineering work and infrastructure, while China will be in charge of systems and technical issues.

Thai media reports had said that the Thai government is the project owner, with China responsible for designing, constructing and buying track systems and equipment.

International affairs observer Zheng Xin said reports in Thailand before the meeting that stated China had insisted on lending money to Thailand at a high interest rate did not make any sense.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Note that Ningxia is an autonomous region, not a province.

Which high speed railway would be most needed for Yinchuan?
Yinchuan-Xian?
Yinchuan-Lanzhou?
Yinchuan-Wuwei?
Yinchuan-Taiyuan?
Yinchuan-Baotou?


----------



## kunming tiger

International affairs observer Zheng Xin said reports in Thailand before the meeting that stated China had insisted on lending money to Thailand at a high interest rate did not make any sense.[/QUOTE]

The inference here is that such claims were nothing more than dis information designed to cause public blacklash against the bid.


----------



## hhzz

*High speed trains in Guangxi,March 2015*

Spring time in Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region,Southern China. 
1.








2.








3.








4.








5.








6.









---------------------
*cnr.cn(央广网 唐一志)*


----------



## chornedsnorkack

voyager221 said:


> A picture is worth a thousand words
> It's bit outdated, but giving you a basic idea.


It also has no words, just hieroglyphs.
About that "Lianhuaiyangzhen" - does it go to Zhenjiang?


----------



## voyager221

chornedsnorkack said:


> It also has no words, just hieroglyphs.
> About that "Lianhuaiyangzhen" - does it go to Zhenjiang?


Yes.

And there's a wiki link of "Hu-Tong railway"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai–Nantong_Railway


----------



## voyager221

I couldn't help myself going back to watch the video of two high speed trains running parallel again and again.

It's also got me thinking, all these videos are from Jing-Hu(Shanghai to Nanjing section) HSR against Hu-Ning Intercity Railway.
Are there any this kind of the events happening on other parallel running HSRs, like Jing-Guang(Wuhan to Xianning section) HSR against Wu-Xian Intercity Railway,
or Liu-Nan Passenger Railway and Nan-Guang HSRs (running parallel closely from Nanning East to Litang West)?
How about world wide, both trains running parallel at 250km/h+?

Here are the videos:
Apologise if they've been posted before





by twubird2010





by keiichiro akaiwa





by kamome457


----------



## 孟天宝

voyager221 said:


> A picture is worth a thousand words
> It's bit outdated, but giving you a basic idea.





chornedsnorkack said:


> It also has no words, just hieroglyphs.
> About that "Lianhuaiyangzhen" - does it go to Zhenjiang?


 

The thick blue lines are "Keyun Zhuanxian" or "Passenger Dedicated Line"
The thin red lines are "Chengji Tielu" or Intercity Railways
The red-white lines are "Zaijian Chengji" or Intercity Lines Under Construction. I only see two; one from Shanghai to Nanjing, the other from Nanjing to Anqing. The former is already finished, the latter is called the "宁安城际铁路" or Ning'an Chengji Tielu which Baike says will be complete at the end of Sept. this year.
The red lines w/ blue dots are "Kuaisu Tielu" or High-Speed rail line.
Reading a little bit on Baike seems to indicate the PDL (or Gaotie) are any lines that go over 250kph (or maybe 300kph - I think the article contradicts itself) whereas the Kuaisu Tielu are lines that go at 200kph. As well, it appears that by the end of the year there should be 40,000km of the latter and 18,000km of the former.

You mentioned three lines;

Lianhuaiyangzhen = Lianyungang to Zhenjiang via Huai'an and Yangzhou. This line starts at the top middle at "连云港" which the terminus for two of the Kuaisu Tielu and follows the left one down to "镇江" which is almost in the middle, just right of the big circle for Nanjing/南京.

Lianyan = This is the right line from Lianyungang and goes to Yancheng "盐城" about an inch or two down.

Hutong = "Hu" or 沪 is a short name for Shanghai; this line goes from Shanghai "上海" to Nantong "南通" and appears as the short line on the right of the map. Baike has some nice diagrams and pictures at "胡同铁路"


----------



## Cosmicbliss

Guys, are there ever incidents of passengers being looted in trains in China? Or crime in railway journeys like unreserved passengers coming and occupying the seats?


----------



## ccdk

Yinchuan - Xi'an planned route








http://news.ifeng.com/a/20150315/43344293_0.shtml?f=hao123


----------



## 孟天宝

Cosmicbliss said:


> Guys, are there ever incidents of passengers being looted in trains in China? Or crime in railway journeys like unreserved passengers coming and occupying the seats?


Of course.

I had a Canadian friend go out of the soft-sleeper cabin to use the washroom and when he came back, his passport and money was missing. No one in the sleeper (a grandmother and her daughter) claimed responsibility and said someone else came in but they didn't see.

Also had a local friend lose her laptop because someone slipped something in her drink and she had to be woken up at the station.

I don't see people "stealing" seats though. Usually someone will try and take a vacant seat, but if the ticket holder shows up they will usually move out of the way.


----------



## voyager221

Cosmicbliss said:


> Guys, are there ever incidents of passengers being looted in trains in China? Or crime in railway journeys like unreserved passengers coming and occupying the seats?


Haven't read any news about organized crimes on trains in China for 20 or 30 years. Thieving sometime happens but very rare. Generally it's quite safe traveling by train in China. The latest major incident AFAIK was someone with mental heath problem hurt three or four people with a fire extinguisher.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

孟天宝;122419698 said:


> The thick blue lines are "Keyun Zhuanxian" or "Passenger Dedicated Line"
> The thin red lines are "Chengji Tielu" or Intercity Railways
> The red-white lines are "Zaijian Chengji" or Intercity Lines Under Construction. I only see two; one from Shanghai to Nanjing, the other from Nanjing to Anqing. The former is already finished, the latter is called the "宁安城际铁路" or Ning'an Chengji Tielu which Baike says will be complete at the end of Sept. this year.
> The red lines w/ blue dots are "Kuaisu Tielu" or High-Speed rail line.
> Reading a little bit on Baike seems to indicate the PDL (or Gaotie) are any lines that go over 250kph (or maybe 300kph - I think the article contradicts itself)


Perhaps the Chinese are confused - how to call lines with top speed over 250 but below 300 kph?


孟天宝;122419698 said:


> whereas the Kuaisu Tielu are lines that go at 200kph. As well, it appears that by the end of the year there should be 40,000km of the latter and 18,000km of the former.


End of 2015? Does it mean 58 000 km high speed railways combined?


孟天宝;122419698 said:


> You mentioned three lines;
> 
> Lianhuaiyangzhen = Lianyungang to Zhenjiang via Huai'an and Yangzhou. This line starts at the top middle at "连云港" which the terminus for two of the Kuaisu Tielu and follows the left one down to "镇江" which is almost in the middle, just right of the big circle for Nanjing/南京.


But I note that the red dotted line does not end in Zhenjiang! It goes on to somewhere in southeast Anhui.


----------



## Qtya

*"Business always demands more speed."*

*Are superfast trains speeding down the tracks?*

At the time the UK was completing its first stretch of high-speed rail in 2007, China had barely left the station.

Nearly a decade on, Britain still has only that same 68-mile (109km) stretch of track, but China has built itself the longest high-speed network in the world.

At more than 12,000km (7,450 miles) in total, it is well over double the combined length of the European and Japanese networks combined.

So if you want to get a sense of what the future of rail travel might look like, China would seem to be the place to come.

...

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31608679


----------



## voyager221

Qtya said:


> *Are superfast trains speeding down the tracks?*
> 
> At the time the UK was completing its first stretch of high-speed rail in 2007, China had barely left the station.
> 
> Nearly a decade on, Britain still has only that same 68-mile (109km) stretch of track, but China has built itself the longest high-speed network in the world.
> 
> At more than 12,000km (7,450 miles) in total, it is well over double the combined length of the European and Japanese networks combined.
> 
> So if you want to get a sense of what the future of rail travel might look like, China would seem to be the place to come.
> 
> ...
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31608679


Saw this earlier, couldn't believe my eyes at first. There's no mention of the crash or the corruption or the build qulity etc. That's not very "BBC".


----------



## foxmulder

voyager221 said:


> Saw this earlier, couldn't belive my eyes at first. There's no mention of the crash or the corruption or the build qulity etc. That's not very "BBC".


LOL.. so true.


----------



## Kot Bazilio

Chinese new trains looks awesome!


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Qtya said:


> Nearly a decade on, Britain still has only that same 68-mile (109km) stretch of track, but China has built itself the longest high-speed network in the world.
> 
> At more than 12,000km (7,450 miles) in total, it is well over double the combined length of the European and Japanese networks combined.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31608679


So what is the CRH length?
12 000 km?
18 000 km?
40 000 km?
58 000 km?


----------



## 孟天宝

chornedsnorkack said:


> Perhaps the Chinese are confused - how to call lines with top speed over 250 but below 300 kph?


Actually, it looks like I was more confused.

Here are the pages for reference;
高速铁路 "Gaosu Tielu" or High Speed Railway
快速铁路 "Kuaisu Tielu" or Rapid [Speed] Railway
客运专线 "Keyun Zhuanxian" or Passenger Dedicated Railway (PDL)

It appears PDLs aren't designated as such due to speed, but rather through use. So you can have a PDL designed for 200kph or 250 or 300 or 350. When it comes to the Kuaisu Tielu it looks like anything over 200kph applies, this just refers to speed limit. Not quite sure what would be a proper translation though - as Gaotie is often used for the High Speed and 300+



chornedsnorkack said:


> End of 2015? Does it mean 58 000 km high speed railways combined?


From the Kuaisu Tielu page;



Baidu Baike said:


> *高铁2015年底达1.8万公里*
> 
> “铁总：2015年我国快速铁路网将覆盖50万人以上城市”[1] 报道：国务院新闻办公室在河北省唐山市举行发布会，会上，中国铁路总公司宣传部负责人表示，截止2014年底，中国铁路营业里程突破11.2万公里，其中高速铁路运营里程达到1.6万公里，高铁成为铁路客运的主力军。*预计到2015年末，中国高速铁路营业里程达1.8万公里*以上，以高速铁路为骨架。
> *快铁2015年底达4万公里*
> 
> “铁总：2015年我国快速铁路网将覆盖50万人以上城市”报道：预计到2015年末，包括*区际快速铁路、城际铁路及既有线提速线路等构成的快速铁路网*将达*4万公里*以上，基本覆盖50万人口以上城市。


Without translating everything, the two paragraph heads state "At the end of 2015, High Speed [Gaotie] will exceed 18,000 km" and "At the end of 2015, Rapid Speed will exceed 40,000 km." Of course there are no sources, so take it with a grain of salt.



chornedsnorkack said:


> But I note that the red dotted line does not end in Zhenjiang! It goes on to somewhere in southeast Anhui.


Correct, it continues onwards towards to Ningguo [宁国] in Anhui passing through Danyang [丹阳], Jintan [金坛] and Liyang [溧阳] which are all in Jiangsu.

The other dotted line beside it starts at Wuhu [芜湖] and goes to Huangshan [黄山]. 

The third dotted line(s) over to the south and east in Zhejiang province start at Jinhua [金华], the northern branch goes to Zhoushan [舟山] via Ningbo [宁波] and the southern branch goes to Wenzhou [温州] via Lishui [丽水]. This one exists on Baike as "New Jin-Li-Wen Railway" and apparently it began constructing in 2010 and will be finished at the end of this year. It cost 17.9 billion RMB, is 189km long and will run at 200kph. Go figure! :nuts:


----------



## Pansori

UK had 200km/h railways for a long time. And quite a few of them. By definition used in either EU or China those are HSR too. In terms or average speeds they are comparable to China's D services.

For PR and marketing purposes, however, UK decided to use the term HSR only for new lines that are capable of 300km/h+ operation.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

孟天宝;122450454 said:


> The third dotted line(s) over to the south and east in Zhejiang province start at Jinhua [金华], the northern branch goes to Zhoushan [舟山] via Ningbo [宁波] and the southern branch goes to Wenzhou [温州] via Lishui [丽水]. This one exists on Baike as "New Jin-Li-Wen Railway" and apparently it began constructing in 2010 and will be finished at the end of this year. It cost 17.9 billion RMB, is 189km long and will run at 200kph. Go figure! :nuts:


Figure what?
Does it mean that a bridge or a tunnel between Zhoushan and Ningbo is under construction and shall be open for scheduled passenger services at 200 km/h by December 2015?


----------



## voyager221

Pansori said:


> UK had 200km/h railways for a long time. And quite a few of them. By definition used in either EU or China those are HSR too. In terms or average speeds they are comparable to China's D services.
> 
> For PR and marketing purposes, however, UK decided to use the term HSR only for new lines that are capable of 300km/h+ operation.


In China's case, it can argue the permissible speed of all these HSR lines are 250km/h+ except one Nanguang(南广) railway which needs a upgrade(it already has 3500m minimum radius of curves), as we all know all the 250km/h lines are only allowed to run at up to 210km/h after the Wenzhou(温州) crash. Before the large scale construction of HSRs China has upgraded 6000km conventional trunk lines to 200km/h by the end of 2007 and now these lines only run up to 160km/h. There's so much saftey margin of these new lines, with little upgrade JR probably would be happy to run their trains at 300km/h on 250km/h lines and 400km/h on 350km/h line.


----------



## voyager221

Overnight 250km/h high speed sleeper train from Beijing to Guangzhou seem to be very popular. Thinking about it, 11 hours(20pm to 7am next morning) on a sleeper train to cover 2200km for the price of not too much over flight and you've got a whole day at either city without the need for a hotel. No wonder it's popular.


----------



## voyager221

*By 武~T6774 from bbs.outrail.com*

38464567201503231220142616820457364_024 by simonyang126, on Flickr


----------



## voyager221

*By 武~T6774 from bbs.outrail.com*

38464567201503231220142616820457364_035 by simonyang126, on Flickr

CRH380A approaching Huashan North Station


----------



## voyager221

*By 武~T6774 from bbs.outrail.com*

38464567201503231220142616820457364_033 by simonyang126, on Flickr


----------



## voyager221

*By 武~T6774 from bbs.outrail.com*

38464567201503231220142616820457364_031 by simonyang126, on Flickr


----------



## voyager221

*By 武~T6774 from bbs.outrail.com*

38464567201503231220142616820457364_026 by simonyang126, on Flickr

CRH2A with Huashan in the background


----------



## voyager221

*By 武~T6774 from bbs.outrail.com*

38464567201503231220142616820457364_023 by simonyang126, on Flickr

Huashan North in the sunset


----------



## foxmulder

Silly_Walks said:


> Imagine is the key word there.


So? That is how it starts.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

lookback718 said:


> I personally can't wait to see this happen, and with Shanghai-Beijing HSR getting close to capacity, a second line is going to be needed, and I would add Guangzhou to Shanghai being only mid speed HSR - it could be a good candidate.
> 
> Probably worth remembering that in the 1990s the MOR had a huge debate whether Beijing-Shanghai should be maglev or conventional rail, and this debate ragged for years, slowing down the start date of the line.


And now Japan is needing a second line Tokyo-Osaka - and building air pressure, 505 km/h maglev.


----------



## foxmulder

flankerjun said:


> This test is the new 350KM/H train 500KM/H test.
> new 350KM/H,or called standard bullet train,with the same cockpit and most of parts,to reduce the cost for maintain.


So, it is this baby?


----------



## kunming tiger

kunming tiger said:


> Changsha to pilot its maglev by year-end
> 
> Changsha maglev project, the first low-speed maglev line in China that has independent intellectual property rights, will be completed and go into trial operation by the end of 2015.
> 
> Upon its completion, the distance between Changsha South High-speed Railway Station and the T2 terminal in Huanghua Airport will be reduced to 10 minutes. The project will transform the Changsha South Station into a comprehensive transportation hub, ensuring seamless transfer among maglev, subway, and high-speed rail.
> 
> More importantly, it means that the city of Changsha will take the lead in building itself into a modern integrated transportation hub with high-speed rail, air traffic, inter-city rail, low-speed maglev, subway, as well as highway.
> 
> “The Changsha maglev project will draw on the management experience from similar projects in Shanghai, Hong Kong, Japan, and South Korea. And advanced technologies from both home and abroad will be put into use for its construction,” said Wu Xiangming, chief adviser to the Changsha maglev project, who used to be the head of Shanghai maglev project.
> 
> Wu said that the low-speed maglev has the advantages of being safer and quieter, with smaller turning radius, better climbing ability, as well as low cost. At present, the Changsha maglev project has completed accumulative investments of 1.5 billion yuan ($ 241.44 million).
> 
> The project has established strong scientific research and consulting teams and carries out close technological cooperation with several institutions and universities in conquering multiple technical difficulties.
> 
> When completed, it will be the first low-speed maglev line in China completely built by Chinese engineering. It is also expected to be the flag bearer of the maglev industry in Central China’s Hunan province.
> 
> Maglev is a transport method that uses magnetic levitation that gives it its name to move vehicles without touching the ground. With maglev, a vehicle travels along a railway using magnets to create both lift and propulsion, thereby reducing friction and allowing higher speeds.
> 
> By Zhang Qiong, edited by Mevlut Katik
> Source: Changsha Evening News


Here is the link

http://en.changsha.gov.cn/news/Loca...a7793a9062544274300c7dba21427439354_156421275


----------



## ccdk

*Jilin - Hunchun HSR to commence operation October, 2015*

It will be a 250km/h line stretching 360km, connecting to the existing Changchun - Jilin HSR. When opened, travel time from Changchun to Hunchun will be cut to 3 hours.

http://www.peoplerail.com/rail/show-475-220504-1.html


----------



## ccdk

A drunken passenger on the Taiyuan - Beijing G614 broke the window glass using the emergency hammer on the HSR train. But he was quickly controlled by the steward(ess).
The train arrived in Beijing safely.


----------



## Cosmicbliss

What the hell??


----------



## sacto7654

lookback718 said:


> I personally can't wait to see this happen, and with Shanghai-Beijing HSR getting close to capacity, a second line is going to be needed, and I would add Guangzhou to Shanghai being only mid speed HSR - it could be a good candidate.


I think the best solution--especially given how China does things--is to widen the right of way on the current Beijing-Shanghai line and add an additional track per direction, one dedicated for a _very_ limited stop--if not non-stop!--service between Beijing and Shanghai using one of the new CRH380 trainsets running at speeds as high as 340-350 km/h most of the way.


----------



## voyager221

CRH380D at Nanxiang EMU Depot(南翔动车所)

http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=MjM5MDk3MjA5Ng==&mid=205062747&idx=4&sn=a22c1bca01ebd6287315255f16972e60&scene=2&from=timeline&isappinstalled=0#rd
a_003 by simonyang126, on Flickr
a_002 by simonyang126, on Flickr
a by simonyang126, on Flickr
a by simonyang126, on Flickr
a_004 by simonyang126, on Flickr


----------



## coth

pics won't load


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## big-dog

coth said:


> pics won't load


I can see them.



ccdk said:


> A drunken passenger on the Taiyuan - Beijing G614 broke the window glass using the emergency hammer on the HSR train. But he was quickly controlled by the steward(ess).
> The train arrived in Beijing safely.


I was always wondering if the small hammer can actually break the HSR window. Finally there is a real case test


----------



## Sopomon

Why the whole-seat covers? They look very tacky


----------



## chornedsnorkack

sacto7654 said:


> I think the best solution--especially given how China does things--is to widen the right of way on the current Beijing-Shanghai line and add an additional track per direction, one dedicated for a _very_ limited stop--if not non-stop!--service between Beijing and Shanghai using one of the new CRH380 trainsets running at speeds as high as 340-350 km/h most of the way.


Remember that the existing line is already built for 380 km/h, not 350.


----------



## sacto7654

chornedsnorkack said:


> Remember that the existing line is already built for 380 km/h, not 350.


While true, I haven't heard of any Chinese-built trainset actually achieving 380 km/h in actual operational service.


----------



## voyager221

chornedsnorkack said:


> How can the turns northbound be performed? Or turns coming from north, like Hefei-Shangrao-Nanchang?


Hefei to Nanchang trains were supposed to run on Hefu HSR to TonglineNorth(铜陵北) than get on Nanjing(南京)-Anqing(安庆) HSR to Chizhou(池州), then Chizhou-Jiujiang(九江) HSR and Jiujing-Nanchang dedicated passenger line.

Nanjing-Anqing HSR(also called Ning'an HSR) will open by the end of this year, hopefully. But Chizhou-Jiujiang HSR is still at planning stage.

The connecting tracks between Hefu HSR and Ning'an HSR near TonglingNorth on Googlemap, you can see the intention here.

https://goo.gl/maps/1Wxgu


----------



## chornedsnorkack

So, the stations between Hefei and Shangrao are:

Hefei
Changlinhe
Chaohu
a Wuwei (is there a Wuwei in Gansu?)
Tongling - the junction with Nanjing-Tongling-Anqing railway
Nanling
Jingxian
Jingde
Jixi
Huangshan
Wuyuan
Dexing
Shangrao


----------



## voyager221

chornedsnorkack said:


> How can the turns northbound be performed? Or turns coming from north, like Hefei-Shangrao-Nanchang?


Since Chizou-Jiujiang HSR won't be ready in a few years, I suppose trains crossing between Hefu HSR northbound and Hangchang HSR can still be run, just need to take bit longer in Shangrao station involving going through crossover, rotating all the seats around, etc.


----------



## voyager221

chornedsnorkack said:


> So, the stations between Hefei and Shangrao are:
> 
> Hefei
> Changlinhe
> Chaohu
> a Wuwei (is there a Wuwei in Gansu?)
> Tongling - the junction with Nanjing-Tongling-Anqing railway
> Nanling
> Jingxian
> Jingde
> Jixi
> Huangshan
> Wuyuan
> Dexing
> Shangrao


Yes. Wuwei(无为) in Anhui province and Wuwei(武威) in Gansu province.


----------



## Pansori

ccdk said:


> Chongqing - Guiyang line will be operational in 2017, connecting the Guiyang - Guangzhong line.
> 
> depending on your schedule, your best bid currently is to take G train from GZ to Wuhan (Hankou), then transfer to Beijing - Chongqing/Chengdu G train departing from Hankou station (another station in Wuhan). Hankou - Chongqing is about 7 hours by that train. I believe the GZ - BJ trains have a stop at Hankou
> 
> The direct Beijing - Chongqing G train takes a bit more than 12 hours if you start your journey from Beijing
> 
> If you start your journey from Shanghai, there are a few Shanghai - Chengdu (through Chongqing) D trains


Thanks. I checked those options. However my journey will have to start from Guangzhou and it has to end in Nanning. The first leg would be ok but the second leg seems not viable with slow trains.


----------



## voyager221




----------



## chornedsnorkack

The first high speed train Chongqing-Wuhan, G316, arrives in Wuhan at 13:03 - in Hankou. The first train to travel to Wuhan Station, D2234, arrives in Wuhan only in 15:12.
The last high speed train Wuhan-Nanning, G433, having departed Wuhan at 14:49.

Is there any way to travel Hankou-Wuhan in 1 hour 46 minutes?


----------



## ccdk

Pansori said:


> Thanks. I checked those options. However my journey will have to start from Guangzhou and it has to end in Nanning. The first leg would be ok but the second leg seems not viable with slow trains.


does that mean we won't be expecting a China By Train 2015 report? :?


----------



## Pansori

ccdk said:


> does that mean we won't be expecting a China By Train 2015 report? :?


Yes but perhaps not as big as it could have been. My plan is to get from Guangzhou to Hanoi by train via Nanning. I wanted to detour to Chongqing but since it's not really possible I'll probably stick to Shenzhen-Guangzhou-Nanning.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> I wanted to detour to Chongqing but since it's not really possible


So how about that crossing Wuhan?

Looks like it might be done by 2 trips on Wuhan Metro.


----------



## voyager221

We know you're cute, but we're more interested in the train behind you.









What's this? Soft sleeper coach? A sleeper EMU with top speed 380km/h?


----------



## ccdk

- please no copying of whole articles, thanks


----------



## voyager221

*Mean machines, found on the internet*


----------



## chornedsnorkack

What is the maximum age (or height?) of males allowed in women-only carriages?


----------



## voyager221

chornedsnorkack said:


> What is the maximum age (or height?) of males allowed in women-only carriages?


I don't think there's any compartments or coaches designated as women-only, what ticket centre's doing is to put women passengers into same compartment as much as possible when this option's ticked online, it's not guaranteed any woman passenger ticks the option will definately be in a compartment without men.
The only way to ensure that is to buy the whole compartment.


----------



## voyager221

New 250km/h CJ1(Will be called CRH3A?) and CRH1A(Bombardier Zefiro 250) in testing at Shenyang Huanggutun(沈阳皇姑屯) EMU depot. Photographed by Anytrain.


----------



## Kenni

***When quoting, or uploading articles, please remember to keep it at 100 or less, and more importantly, do not publish the whole article, never. Add source link.


----------



## ccdk

Kenni said:


> *** 100 or less ......


100 or less of? Words? Lines? Or?


----------



## mrsmartman

^^ Words as it appears to be.


----------



## ccdk

*HSR Express Delivery services available in 151 cities*
http://finance.ifeng.com/a/20150406/13609852_0.shtml

- China Railway Express (CRE) added more cities to their network of express delivery services
- CRE has price advantage in comparison with other express delivery companies such as Shunfeng
- Though CRE now covers 151 cities, they are not able to offer full range of services in all cities as they are still expanding their local delivery networks, so user experience is not as good as competitors
- Dedicated freight HSR trains are in development. Once launched, it could boost services offered by CRE


----------



## Julito-dubai

Cuthbert 80 said:


> Beautiful pics ^^
> 
> Do any of you know if the CRH G trains from Beijing - Shenzhen have plug sockets(power outlets) for second class?
> 
> If not, I'm guessing it's only first/business class :/
> 
> Will be getting the 10am G79 service next week from Beijing Xi West.


usually they have one under or in front of the seat. Even second class


----------



## UD2

Cuthbert 80 said:


> Beautiful pics ^^
> 
> Do any of you know if the CRH G trains from Beijing - Shenzhen have plug sockets(power outlets) for second class?
> 
> If not, I'm guessing it's only first/business class :/
> 
> Will be getting the 10am G79 service next week from Beijing Xi West.


if you're actually taking it from Beijing to Shenzhen, I think first class would be a good choice to make. Costs more but it won't bankrupt you and it will definitely be worth your money.


----------



## Cuthbert 80

Julito-dubai said:


> usually they have one under or in front of the seat. Even second class


Ah ok, cool. Thanks



UD2 said:


> if you're actually taking it from Beijing to Shenzhen, I think first class would be a good choice to make. Costs more but it won't bankrupt you and it will definitely be worth your money.


Too late, tickets bought for second class


----------



## hmmwv

Cuthbert 80 said:


> Do any of you know if the CRH G trains from Beijing - Shenzhen have plug sockets(power outlets) for second class?


At least on CRH380As you can look for a box like this under the seat (one per row regardless the three seat side or the two seat side). Chances are it's not directly under your seat though.


----------



## Svartmetall

Some more Chinese HSR videos from me. 


Firstly we have the CRH entering Nanjing on service G1 from Beijing to Shanghai on 2015 01 03.










Then the outskirts of Shanghai (or at least suburban cities surrounding the mega city anyway). The urbanisation seemed to go on, and on, and on! Again, this was on the G1 service from Beijing to Shanghai.











And finally, a long video showing the approach into Shanghai Hongqiao station on service G1 again.


----------



## traveler

Nice pics!


----------



## voyager221

A group pictures of CRH2A trains on Nanning-Qinzhou(南钦) 250km/h HSR

By Z9_Z10_SWQ

Shown on Googlemap: https://goo.gl/maps/nFaO9


----------



## ccdk

HSR on the Hainan East Ring









Campaign on better etiquette during train ride. Picture taken on D5843


----------



## ccdk

Ballastless track production



















http://www.huaxia.com/jx-tw/zjjx/jrjx/2015/04/4358964.html


----------



## ccdk

A pre-fabricated HSR bridge section








http://zj.sina.com.cn/news/m/2015-04-15/detail-iavxeafs5499294.shtml


----------



## ccdk

Scenery along the Wuhan - Guangzhou line when a photographer takes the HSR


----------



## voyager221

What these CRHs look like :lol:


----------



## flankerjun

Beijing-Shenyang HSR


----------



## NCT

lookback718 said:


> in 2010 it was reported that Jiaotong University was working on low pressure underground tube maglev, which would travel at 600-1000kmph.
> 
> price was reported at being 10-20million yuan more per km than comparable HSR.
> 
> I can't post links, but if you google "China Developing Maglev Train That Can Go 1000kph" it's the first result.
> 
> I personally can't wait to see this happen, and with Shanghai-Beijing HSR getting close to capacity, a second line is going to be needed, and I would add Guangzhou to Shanghai being only mid speed HSR - it could be a good candidate.
> 
> Probably worth remembering that in the 1990s the MOR had a huge debate whether Beijing-Shanghai should be maglev or conventional rail, and this debate ragged for years, slowing down the start date of the line.


Shanghai - Beijing HSL is not getting close to capacity. It'll only be at capacity when the line operates 18 trains per hour at peak times (theoretical maximum is 20 tph, but 18 in practice for resilience) and all of them are 16 cars and full.

Timetabling on Chinese HSLs (or any other railway line) is just awful. There's absolutely no regularity, and slow and fast trains mix when they don't have to. The Shanghai - Beijing HSL should not have had stations other than Shanghai/Hongqiao, Nanjing South, Bengbu South, Xuzhou East, Jinan West, Tianjin South and Beijing South. All other locations should be served on the classic lines via interchanges at nodes, or using HS services that turn off onto classic lines.

The current market can support a regular hour 'uniform path' timetable like this

2 tph Shanghai Hongqiao - Beijing South, calling at Nanjing South only
1 tph Shanghai Hongqiao - Tianjin, calling at Nanjing South, Xuzhou East and Tianjin West
1 tph Shanghai Hongqiao - Jinan (and Qingdao), calling at Nanjing South and Bengbu South
1 tph Shanghai Hongqiao - Xuzhou, calling at Nanjing South, Bengbu South, Bengbu, and other principal stations on the Jinpu Line

1 tph Beijing South - Hangzhou, calling at Jinan West and Nanjing South
1 tph Beijing South - Hefei, calling at Tianjin South and Nanjing South
1 tph Beijing South - Xuzhou, calling at Jinan West and Xuzhou East
2 tph Beijing South - Jinan and Qingdao, calling at Tianjin South

In the near future the following services will be possible

1 tph Shanghai Hongqiao - Zhengzhou
1 tph Shanghai Hongqiao - Shijiazhuang

This is already a significant increase from current service levels, and is only 9 tph at the busiest point, well below capacity. There is plenty of scope for additional services serving other city centre to city centre pairs (e.g. Tianjin - Jinan), as well as additional HS-classic services that could be enabled through additional junctions (e.g. Beijing South - Cangzhou - Dezhou - Jinan).


----------



## doc7austin

Here is a video from my recent ride between Guilin North and Guangzhou South Railway station on the Guiguang HSR with CRH2 train D2813:


----------



## FM 2258

^^

These videos are my favorite part of this thread. Full visual experience of Chinese craftsmanship.



flankerjun said:


> Beijing-Shenyang HSR



Is that another high speed rail line in the distance? If so where will that one go? I imagine it will be hard to tell if someone else took the picture.


----------



## flankerjun

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> These videos are my favorite part of this thread. Full visual experience of Chinese craftsmanship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that another high speed rail line in the distance? If so where will that one go? I imagine it will be hard to tell if someone else took the picture.


the rail line in the distance is the old Beijing-Harbin line.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> Timetabling on Chinese HSLs (or any other railway line) is just awful. There's absolutely no regularity,


Emphatically agreed.


NCT said:


> and slow and fast trains mix when they don't have to. The Shanghai - Beijing HSL should not have had stations other than Shanghai/Hongqiao, Nanjing South, Bengbu South, Xuzhou East, Jinan West, Tianjin South and Beijing South.


Disagreed.
Beijing-Shanghai 1302 km
21 intermediate stations
average 59 km interstation distance
Tokaido Shinkansen Tokyo-Shin-Osaka 515 km
15 intermediate stations
average 32 km interstation distance
Taiwan HSR Taipei-Zuoying 339 km
6 intermediate stations
average interstation distance 48 km
Beijing-Shanghai HSR already has too few stations.


NCT said:


> All other locations should be served on the classic lines via interchanges at nodes, or using HS services that turn off onto classic lines.


The services on classic lines should indeed be improved, and tied to HSR. And HS services that turn off onto classic lines are an option in China (same gauge) which they are not in Japan and Taiwan (classic lines narrow gauge).
Out of the 17 stations on Tokaido Shinkansen, only 3 are not also on the narrow gauge Tokaido Main Line, and of these 3 only Shin-Fuji is not a narrow gauge railway station.


NCT said:


> The current market can support a regular hour 'uniform path' timetable like this
> ...
> 1 tph Shanghai Hongqiao - Xuzhou, calling at Nanjing South, Bengbu South, Bengbu, and other principal stations on the Jinpu Line
> ...
> 1 tph Beijing South - Xuzhou, calling at Jinan West and Xuzhou East


Disagreed. What´s the point of terminating in Xuzhou?


----------



## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> Emphatically agreed.
> 
> Disagreed.
> Beijing-Shanghai 1302 km
> 21 intermediate stations
> average 59 km interstation distance
> Tokaido Shinkansen Tokyo-Shin-Osaka 515 km
> 15 intermediate stations
> average 32 km interstation distance
> Taiwan HSR Taipei-Zuoying 339 km
> 6 intermediate stations
> average interstation distance 48 km
> Beijing-Shanghai HSR already has too few stations.
> 
> The services on classic lines should indeed be improved, and tied to HSR. And HS services that turn off onto classic lines are an option in China (same gauge) which they are not in Japan and Taiwan (classic lines narrow gauge).
> Out of the 17 stations on Tokaido Shinkansen, only 3 are not also on the narrow gauge Tokaido Main Line, and of these 3 only Shin-Fuji is not a narrow gauge railway station.


You have answered for yourself why Chinese and Japanese situations are not comparable. The fact that the Japanese are building a Tokaido Maglev is a reflection that the Shinkansen has too many stations and mix running is eating too much capacity. Once the Maglev is operational the express trains will all migrate there from the Shinkansen and the existing Shinkansen will become a regional railway.

Shanghai - Beijing already had a 200 km/h regional railway, so the new line only ever needed to be express.



> Disagreed. What´s the point of terminating in Xuzhou?


It's so that 'classic' city centre stations receive regular HS services and longer distance HS services don't have to call there. Remember at 300 km/h each station call adds about 8 minutes to the journey time, and they all add up. Xuzhou is not an insignificant market and I believe it will fill up 1 tph to Beijing and 1 tph to Shanghai.

The Shanghai - Xuzhou service is to serve Bengbu (Central) and Suzhou (Central). This at least negates the need for Suzhou East station.

The Xuzhou - Beijing service should be time to connect with the Xuzhou East (ex Tianjin) - Shanghai service, and these services combined, together with the Xuzhou - Shanghai should be timed to provide a 2 per hour opportunity to travel to Xuzhou to Shanghai.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> You have answered for yourself why Chinese and Japanese situations are not comparable. The fact that the Japanese are building a Tokaido Maglev is a reflection that the Shinkansen has too many stations


Nozomis make just 4 stops between Tokyo and Osaka.


----------



## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> Nozomis make just 4 stops between Tokyo and Osaka.


I know that, and I was referring to the infrastructure, not the services. Mixing fast and slow services severely limits line capacity. The Japanese understand that and realise the market is now big enough to support separate express and regional infrastructure.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> I know that, and I was referring to the infrastructure, not the services. Mixing fast and slow services severely limits line capacity. The Japanese understand that and realise the market is now big enough to support separate express and regional infrastructure.


Yes. But the point is, the regional infrastructure was and is needed.



NCT said:


> Shanghai - Beijing already had a 200 km/h regional railway,


And no longer have - since Second Slowdown Campaign, just 160 km/h.


----------



## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> And no longer have - since Second Slowdown Campaign, just 160 km/h.


Which is just completely stupid.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Note that all Nozomis make 3 stops within 26 km of Tokyo. Tokyo, Shinagawa and Shin-Yokohama. There used to be trains which skipped either Shinagawa or Shin-Yokohama, but no more are.
Taiwan HSR also has all express trains stopping in Banqiao Station, 7 km from Taipei.

How many stops should express CRH trains make in Shanghai? In Beijing?


----------



## FM 2258

flankerjun said:


> the rail line in the distance is the old Beijing-Harbin line.


Thank you so much. I didn't think I would really get an answer but you came out with so much more! :cheers:


----------



## Sopomon

I noticed that Cantonese announcements occur on the Guangzhou subway system. 
Do they occur on trains in and out of Guangdong as well?


----------



## maginn

Sopomon said:


> I noticed that Cantonese announcements occur on the Guangzhou subway system.
> Do they occur on trains in and out of Guangdong as well?


Probably not because there are large parts of Guangdong where the dominant language isn't Yue Chinese (Cantonese and related dialects). 
The Shenzhen and Foshan metro systems also have announcements in Cantonese however.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Haven't been able to find a taxi driver in Shenzhen that understands Cantonese in while now 

</off-topic>


----------



## hkskyline

Sopomon said:


> I noticed that Cantonese announcements occur on the Guangzhou subway system.
> Do they occur on trains in and out of Guangdong as well?


Not on the CRH trains though from my trips between Guangzhou and Shenzhen.


----------



## jaysonn341

hkskyline said:


> Not on the CRH trains though from my trips between Guangzhou and Shenzhen.


That's strange. Just came back from the Canton fair. Took trains to Shenzhen and Zhongshan. All had announcements in Cantonese.


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## maginn

jaysonn341 said:


> That's strange. Just came back from the Canton fair. Took trains to Shenzhen and Zhongshan. All had announcements in Cantonese.


You are correct, the local trains in the delta region all have announcements in both Mandarin and Cantonese, followed by English of course.


----------



## maginn

Silly_Walks said:


> Haven't been able to find a taxi driver in Shenzhen that understands Cantonese in while now
> 
> </off-topic>


The vast majority of taxi drivers in Shenzhen are migrants who hail from areas that are outside the Pearl River Delta region so it's unlikely they are able to communicate in Cantonese.


----------



## voyager221

Hefei-Bengbu(合蚌) HSR over Gaotang Lake(高塘湖)

By 铁路小亨

Where on the map
https://goo.gl/maps/cpJqW


----------



## GZ-zhang

flankerjun said:


> the rail line in the distance is the old Beijing-Harbin line.


 Do you have a link for the entire map (ie. whole of China)? I have seen an earlier version of it (excellent!) but not as recent as this edition.


----------



## GZ-zhang

According to the new timetable (from May), it appears there will be a new Guangzhou South-Chengdu East "G" train via Wuhan and Chongqing.


----------



## voyager221

GZ-zhang said:


> Do you have a link for the entire map (ie. whole of China)? I have seen an earlier version of it (excellent!) but not as recent as this edition.


Map made by cjian0732

http://bbs.ourail.com/space-uid-15762.htmlhttp://pan.baidu.com/s/1i3tdu5n 
password：udnu


----------



## GZ-zhang

voyager221 said:


> Map made by cjian0732
> 
> http://pan.baidu.com/s/1i3tdu5n
> password：udnu


 Thanks for that!  I think that map is the best one I've seen of the whole network.


----------



## voyager221

By 铁路小亨


----------



## keber

voyager221 said:


> Map made by cjian0732
> 
> http://pan.baidu.com/s/1i3tdu5n
> password：udnu


Thanks for this excellent map, but what do the colors mean?


----------



## voyager221

keber said:


> Thanks for this excellent map, but what do the colors mean?


Blue - opened since 2008
Dark red - laying tracks and testing
Red - under construction
Orange - preparation for construction
Green - planning

Wider the line is, higher the speed it's designed for

Single line - single track non electrified
Single line with dots - single track electrified

Double black line with no colour in between - double track non electrified
With red dots - electrifying underway

All other double lines are electrified


----------



## xjtyou

Pansori said:


> No seats? Do they sell standing tickets?


Yes,they sell seatless tickets,but the number of seatless tickets is limited i think


----------



## voyager221

Pansori said:


> No seats? Do they sell standing tickets?


Although it's not recommended selling standing tickets on G train, in reality up to 30% overloading on D trains and G trains are normal practice on some busy lines, 
There have been quite a few news that some passengers had to be persuaded to get off due to the trains refused to move when the sensor detected too much overload.


----------



## hkskyline

voyager221 said:


> Although it's not recommended selling standing tickets on G train, in reality up to 30% overloading on D trains and G trains are normal practice on some busy lines,
> There have been quite a few news that some passengers had to be persuaded to get off due to the trains refused to move when the sensor detected too much overload.


Standing tickets are available on only select lines. You can also get one for the C trains between Tianjin and Beijing South and there are limited quotas per train.


----------



## voyager221

A couple of cab view pictures of Lanzhou-Xinjing PDL, quite old but don't think been posted


----------



## stoneybee

voyager221 said:


> TGV had a few level crossing accidents, low speed collisions, and high speed derailments, seatbelts would save a lot people from getting injuries.
> But these accidents were very rare and most of them happened not on the HSR section, so will be even rarer on newly built HSR with no level crossings nor mixed running low speed trains.
> Assuming seatbelts were installed, even the most cautious people after a few trips would think it's pointless to strap yourselves everytime just for the one in a million chance.


My point exactly !


----------



## voyager221

Qiantangjiang railway new bridge(four-track high speed) and Qiantangjiang railway second brideg(two-track passenger and freight mixed, right behind),
The new bridge carries high speed passenger services on Hangzhou-Changsha HSR and Hangzhou-Ningbo HSR.

On map:https://goo.gl/maps/mo5OV


----------



## voyager221

*I hope this qualifies as high speed rail*

You know what this is, it's been around for years, almost got forgotten.

Flying on the ground by 洛杉矶特警


----------



## CarlosBlueDragon

Hello

ask you...

From Wuhan Railway Station to Nanjing South Railway Station 
Have Timetable?? please tell let me know! Thank You brother

Wuhan Railway









Nanjing South Railway


----------



## ccdk

I filtered out the G/D trains from Wuhan to Nanjing South on a random date, and the results show in below link. if the link doesn't work, you can always go on english.ctrip.com, and filter the options you want.

http://english.ctrip.com/trains/lis...(南京)&TrainNo=&searchboxArg=t#ctm_ref=hp_sb_tn


----------



## ccdk

*CRH380D on Shanghai - Nanjing route*
http://www.gov.cn/xinwen/2015-04/29/content_2855401.htm


----------



## ccdk

An employee at CSR started a crowd funding project to publish a picture album illustrating the history of HSR. Apparently he has collected sufficient fund for the first edition of his book. It is coming out in August!
This guy also organizes annual visit for railway enthusiasts to CSR production facilities, anyone in China who is interested, you can find his Weibo info by clicking the link below the picture.








http://www.guancha.cn/Project/2015_04_24_317205.shtml


Here is a hillarious video he made on the history of HSR, only in Chinese though


----------



## ccdk

*China CNR, CSR Said to Weigh Bombardier Train Unit Purchase*
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-to-weigh-purchase-of-bombardier-s-train-unit

Chinese locomotive makers CSR Corp. and China CNR Corp. are considering the acquisition of a controlling stake in Bombardier Inc.’s train business, said a person familiar with the matter.

Deliberations are preliminary and the state-owned companies may decide not to proceed, said the person, who asked not to be identified because the information is private. Any deal to buy Bombardier’s rail operations would come after CNR and CSR complete their planned merger, the person said.

Bombardier hired UBS Group AG and Citigroup Inc. to advise on a possible sale or initial public offering of the rail unit, people familiar with the matter said this month. That step followed Executive Chairman Pierre Beaudoin’s February announcement that Bombardier “will explore” initiatives such as “potential participation in industry consolidation” to reduce debt.
Bombardier won’t comment “on any public speculation as to what may or may not happen as a result of this evaluation,” Isabelle Rondeau said Wednesday. She also said the rail unit “is not for sale.”

Beaudoin himself had delivered a similar message, according to Quebec Economy Minister Jacques Daoust, who said earlier this month that the executive had ruled out an outright sale of the business.

$5.4 Billion

Bombardier may fetch as much as $5.4 billion if it decides to sell the rail unit, which has played a “stabilizing role” amid the struggles at the company’s aerospace business, according to AltaCorp Capital.

Bombardier’s Class B shares rose 2.1 percent to C$2.47 by the close of trading in Toronto. The stock has lost 40 percent of its value this year.

A spokesman for CSR said he had no information on the matter, while a call to CNR’s press office wasn’t answered outside regular business hours.

Acquiring the rail unit would give the Chinese companies an international presence and enable them to take advantage of surging exports.

The two Chinese companies announced a plan in December to combine in a $12.3 billion share swap. Shares of CNR have surged 380 percent and CSR 418 percent in Shanghai trading this year. That would make the combination the world’s biggest railway company and the second-largest industrial company by market value, lagging behind only General Electric Corp.

China’s political leaders have touted the capabilities of their railway companies during overseas trips, helping them post record profits and win billions of dollars worth of orders. Chinese companies signed $24.7 billion of contracts for overseas rail projects last year, Commerce Ministry official Zhi Luxun said at a Feb. 5 briefing in Beijing.

Train Business

Citing people it didn’t identify, Reuters reported earlier Wednesday that the Chinese trainmakers are exploring buying control of Bombardier’s train business and have been in discussions with the Canadian company.

Bombardier’s transportation unit, which builds locomotives, is worth as much as C$3.50 a share, giving negative value to the aerospace business, Chris Murray, an analyst at AltaCorp, said in an interview earlier this month.

A breakup could be the best way for Bombardier to overcome the struggles facing its aerospace business, analysts and investors have said. The rail unit, which includes subway cars and signaling and control equipment, is the healthier part of the company, with 2014 earnings before interest and taxes of $429 million compared with a loss of $995 million at the aerospace unit.

Bombardier has pushed back the commercial debut of the CSeries aircraft to 2016 from 2013 because of repeated delays that have raised the development cost of its largest-ever plane to $5.4 billion, at least $2 billion over budget.


----------



## voyager221

Shanghai-Kunming HSR Beipanjiang Railway Bridge latest progress
Construction of the steel and concrete main arch has been fininshed, the bridge's looking good to be ready on time in 2016.






More information of the bridge:
http://www.highestbridges.com/wiki/index.php?title=Beipanjiang_Railway_Bridge_Qinglong


----------



## Silly_Walks

^^

Not to be confused with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beipanjiang_River_Railway_Bridge

Also, Kunming, not Hunming


----------



## krisu99

I think the main interest of CSR/CNR in Bombarider rail division is to get in control of the wide patent portfolio. The problem for China now is that all of they HSR trains rely heavily on foreign patents. While all foreign manufacturers had to agree on technology transfer to chine, the accompanying agreements forbid Chine to sell the transferred technology abroad...
With the acquisition of Bombardier, China could for example bid for the US High Speed project without running into troubles ...

That won't make traditional European and Japanese manufacturers happy, after all it is them who developed the know-how over many decades. 

That's capitalism at its best. The Zefiro Platform (CRH380D and its derived trains are basically Zefiro) has mainly been developed in Europe, its biggest stake is from Germany. 
Various Bombarider facilities in Europe developed and built key components then shipped to China, together with a technology transfer deal as always(!) required by China. In other cases (Siemens, Alstom...) the first trains have been built in Europe, then the (money making but industry-destroying) technology-transfer deals enabled China to build those HSR trains domestically and continue development from that high starting point. 

Subsequent trains are thus built in China, but still with the restriction of not selling that technology abroad. That's big money for Bombardiers stockholders, but employment is been lost in Europe. But for now at least engineering and development is still here (for example the Italian ETR1000 is part of the Zefiro family).

Now, Bombardiers stockholders could make even more money again by selling Bombardiers rail business to China, enabling China to basically take the world's export market as production in China takes place at a fraction of the labor cost of Europe or Japan. 

Bombardier Germany amongst others then are f*** up. 
They have developed key technologies over decades, but will as it seems lose their engineering intellectual property if the takeover by CSR/CNR will happen. Chinese will produce and sell that stuff to the entire world market at lowest costs.

Again, capitalism at its best. Those who make money with the deal are not those who have really worked for it for year...

Ok, I know China has another more proud national version of HSR history, claiming that almost all HSR technology is being developed in China anyway. Let's start the traditional flame war


----------



## tonii

Well by developing its own technology it wont be fast enough to catch up with the rest. I see no problem with that and the Chinese can still be pround. Archieve one thing it doesnt need to do it in one way. And who cares where the technology originate from. The only thing that matter is your ability to transform it and continue and develop as your own. Money only wont make this happen. Obviously you also need smart people to make the plan. Both business wise and engineer wise. The only loser will make noise regarding to technology. But who cares. If the chinese is not capable of building the technology. Buying bombardier wont do much.


----------



## Cosmicbliss

What about extending the Kunming HSR to the Myanmar border?


----------



## voyager221

Silly_Walks said:


> ^^
> 
> Not to be confused with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beipanjiang_River_Railway_Bridge
> 
> Also, Kunming, not Hunming


Thanks :cheers:


----------



## kunming tiger

To what purpose?

Without an agreement to run it through Burma to the port it would make sense.


----------



## voyager221

krisu99 said:


> I think the main interest of CSR/CNR in Bombarider rail division is to get in control of the wide patent portfolio. The problem for China now is that all of they HSR trains rely heavily on foreign patents. While all foreign manufacturers had to agree on technology transfer to chine, the accompanying agreements forbid Chine to sell the transferred technology abroad...
> With the acquisition of Bombardier, China could for example bid for the US High Speed project without running into troubles ...
> ......
> Ok, I know China has another more proud national version of HSR history, claiming that almost all HSR technology is being developed in China anyway. Let's start the traditional flame war


The rumour is CSR's trying to increase their share in BST(A joint venture between Bombardier Transportation and CSR Sifang) which is producing CRH1 and CRH380D.
The reason behind this is probably to have more say in the further development of CRH1 and CRH380D. So no need to panic yet.:duck:
CRH380A can be said to be all chinese as all the patents of CRH380A are owned by CSR. That's why a model of CRH380A rather than any of the others was presented everytime chinese Premier's promoting CRH abroad.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ I guess that means CRH1A 250 NG, which is the Bombardier Zefiro 250 NG (the CRH1A is a Bombardier Regina, very different and older).


The three HS Bombardier designs (Zefiro 250, Zefiro 380 and V300 Zefiro with AnsaldoBreda) are almost simultaneous.


From left to right: CRH1A 250 NG, CRH380D, CRH1E (from Zefiro 250) and CRH1A (from Regina)


----------



## k.k.jetcar

> The CRH380D looks cool but I keep seeing the old CRH1 when I look at the rest of the train. Am I wrong to think the CRH1 is old high speed rail technology? From what I understand the CRH380D is an upgraded CRH1.


It's nonsense to judge high speed trainsets on cosmetic appearance. Yes, the CRH1 is an older design, based on the Bombardier (ex-Adtranz) Regina trainset used in Sweden, and was likely selected as it has a wider carbody profile to better utilize the Chinese loading gauge. The CRH380D is a thoroughly modern design based on the Zefiro 380- it shares a family resemblance with the Regina on the carbody sides, but the innards are likely quite different.


----------



## Gusiluz

To complete the comparison of the Bombardier Zefiro family it lacked the next ETR 1000 to begin circulating between Rome and Milan on June 14.


----------



## meomix

Very good!


----------



## krisu99

BTW, what is the outcome of the CRH500 /CRH-X Cobra) train with its hight ambitions as a test train? I think one of the aims was to make it beat the TGV world record...

When googling, I mostly find news articles from 2011-2012 announcing this powerful train, but there seem to be no more recent news about the achievements and further developments or successor trains. Any ideas? 


http://singularityhub.com/2012/01/18/chinas-newest-train-hits-500-kmh-only-a-taste-of-whats-to-come/

Also something I could not find out: Do the maximum train and line speeds have been restored to their designed operational speed of 350-380km/h? Those limits which were lowered in 2011 to 300km/h and less?


----------



## Pansori

krisu99 said:


> Also something I could not find out: Do the maximum train and line speeds have been restored to their designed operational speed of 350-380km/h? Those limits which were lowered in 2011 to 300km/h and less?


No. If this was to happen we can be sure that it would be announced and celebrated in this thread.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

^Iron Man 4 detected.


----------



## FM 2258

Pansori said:


> No. If this was to happen we can be sure that it would be announced and celebrated in this thread.


I cannot wait for this day to come. :cheers:


----------



## FM 2258

k.k.jetcar said:


> It's nonsense to judge high speed trainsets on cosmetic appearance. Yes, the CRH1 is an older design, based on the Bombardier (ex-Adtranz) Regina trainset used in Sweden, and was likely selected as it has a wider carbody profile to better utilize the Chinese loading gauge. The CRH380D is a thoroughly modern design based on the Zefiro 380- it shares a family resemblance with the Regina on the carbody sides, but the innards are likely quite different.


Thanks for the link, yeah the car sides look the same but as mentioned the insides are much different . I thought it the CRH380D was somehow an upgraded CRH1.


----------



## Gusiluz

krisu99 said:


> ...
> Also something I could not find out: Do the maximum train and line speeds have been restored to their designed operational speed of 350-380km/h? Those limits which were lowered in 2011 to 300km/h and less?


Since it seems that no one answered, I will with my bad English. Sorry

The current maximum speed is 309 km/h, and was never circulated to 380 in commercial service.

Following the resignation (February 2011) for corruption of former Minister of Railways announced in April his successor a change in policy on HS: the speed of the HSR will be reduced from 350 to 300 km/h in July, and the rest of PDL from 250 to 200. The reasons given were: reducing energy consumption, lowering prices to fill the trains and for safety !!. Shortly after an "adjunct" nuance the words of his boss: the speed reduction would be only on lines with low occupancy and "of course" had nothing to do with security.

Meanwhile, on June 30, the Beijing-Shanghai line was inaugurated. It is the only projected to 380 km/h, but after many problems during testing was commissioned in 300, announcing the 350 "before year end" and 380 "some time later". In July presented problems of signaling and new trains CRH380A.
July 1 became effective speed reduction on lines with low occupancy.
23 of the same month the accident Wenzhou. In this accident he had nothing to do speed, so they have told: there was a storm, the first train (CRH1B # 46) stopped by a failure in a substation, signals broke down, it was getting dark ... and the second train ( the CRH2E No. 139, both entitled to 250 km/h) hit the first train.
In that vein, the SE Coastal PDL, full speed before July 1 was 250, and at that time was reduced, so the accident occurred in a limited line and 200 km/h. I do not know how fast the scope occurred, although it would not be too high: they derailed the last 2 and the first 4 cars; the problem is that it was on a viaduct and 3 of them fell into the void.
After the accident nor the maximum speed of 350 km/h was reduced immediately, but in stages: during August fell at least between Beijing and Tianjin (16), Shanghai-Hangzhou and Wuhan-Guangzhou (the 28). Also in August, but nothing seems to indicate a relationship, all trains were 380A factory to make changes, since continued to fail.

Sources (in English, although the entrance is in Spanish)
................................................
Ya que parece que nadie te contesta, lo haré con mi mal inglés. Lo siento.
La velocidad máxima actual es de 309 km/h, y nunca llegó a circular a 380 en servicio comercial.
Tras la dimisión (febrero de 2011) por corrupción del anterior ministro de FFCC su sucesor anuncia en abril un cambio en la política sobre la AV: la velocidad de las HSR se reducirá en julio desde los 350 a los 300 km/h, y la del resto de PDL desde los 250 a los 200. Los motivos aducidos fueron: reducir el consumo energético, bajar los precios para llenar los trenes y ¡¡por seguridad!!. Poco después un “adjunto” matizó las palabras de su jefe: la reducción de velocidad sería solo en las líneas con baja ocupación y, “por supuesto”, no tenía nada que ver con la seguridad.
Mientras, el 30 de junio se inauguraba la línea Beijing-Shanghai. Es la única proyectada para 380 km/h, pero, tras muchos problemas durante las pruebas se puso en servicio a 300, anunciándose los 350 “antes de fin de año” y los 380 “algún tiempo después”. En julio ya presentó problemas de señalización y de los nuevos trenes CRH380A.
El 1 de julio entró en vigor la reducción de velocidad en las líneas con baja ocupación.
El 23 del mismo mes se produjo el accidente de Wenzhou. En este accidente nada tuvo que ver la velocidad, por lo que han contado: hubo una tormenta, el primer tren (CRH1B nº 46) se detuvo por un fallo en una subestación, se averiaron las señales, estaba anocheciendo … y el segundo tren (el CRH2E nº 139, ambas series autorizadas a 250 km/h) alcanzó al primero.
En esa línea, la SE Coastal PDL, la velocidad máxima antes del 1 de julio era de 250, y en esa fecha se redujo hasta 200, así que el accidente se produjo en una línea limitada ya a 200 km/h. No sé a qué velocidad se produjo el alcance, aunque no sería demasiado elevada: descarrilaron los 2 últimos y los 4 primeros coches; el problema es que fue en un viaducto y 3 de ellos cayeron al vacío.
Después del accidente tampoco se redujo la velocidad máxima de 350 km/h de forma inmediata, sino de manera escalonada: a lo largo de agosto se redujo al menos entre Beijing y Tianjin (el 16), Shanghai-Hangzhou y Wuhan-Guangzhou (el 28). También en agosto, aunque nada parece indicar una relación, todos los trenes 380A fueron a fábrica para realizar cambios, ya que continuaban fallando.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Gusiluz said:


> Since it seems that no one answered, I will


Pansori already answered.


----------



## hightower1

^^
Now where is the dislike a comment button...


----------



## Pansori

FM 2258 said:


> Thanks for the link, yeah the car sides look the same but as mentioned the insides are much different . I thought it the CRH380D was somehow an upgraded CRH1.


How a 380km/h trainset can be an 'upgraded' 200/250km/h trainset? 

You probably mixed up CRH380D with the new Zefiro 250 design.


----------



## krisu99

Thanks for the answers about the speed reductions still in place on the HSL. 
But what about the mentioned CRH500 train which was much mediatized during 2011/2012?
It's roll-out was on December 23, 2011. Its shape had positive reception in this forum too...

_" the aerodynamic CRH series train can deliver 22,800 kW of power to its load, allowing it to set speed records in China "
_

If one tries a "google news" search, last results of this test train are from 2012. 
https://www.google.com/search?q=crh500&num=100&source=lnms&tbm=nws

Also a standard search gives no recent hints of the achievements of this train...

_"China's sword-train truly was a national production. CSR collaborated with both the Ministry of Science and Technology and the Ministry of Railways, the locomotive was produced after more than two years of research with 21 academics and engineers from the Institute of Mechanics, Chinese Academy of Sciences, China Academy of Railway Sciences, Southwest Jiaotong University, Beijing Jiaotong University, and Tongji University. It features materials new to China's railways including advanced carbon fibers, magnesium alloys, and nanometer sized sound insulating particles. "_

I understand that the test train should help understand dynamics of commercial train operation at 400 or 500km/h. It would be interesting to learn a bit more about this train that is said to have twice as much power as for example the Zefiro trains.

Though, google.com reveals no link later than 2012. Or has this train been renamed? 

(quotes from http://singularityhub.com/2012/01/18/chinas-newest-train-hits-500-kmh-only-a-taste-of-whats-to-come/ )


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ I obviate that part because I do not know news about the prototype. 
The only thing that is perhaps not well known, is that it has two separate front, one similar to CRH380A and another like the beak of a flamingo, It is the same case as the Japanese prototype FASTECH 360S.




By the way, this old image of Bombardier on CRH1-380, which eventually was the CRH380D:


----------



## Silly_Walks

hightower1 said:


> ^^
> Now where is the dislike a comment button...


It's the little thumb in the lower right.


----------



## luhai167

krisu99 said:


> .
> 
> Though, google.com reveals no link later than 2012. Or has this train been renamed?
> 
> (quotes from http://singularityhub.com/2012/01/18/chinas-newest-train-hits-500-kmh-only-a-taste-of-whats-to-come/ )


Train's engineering name is CIT500, external name is CRH380AM. This is its official webpage.
http://www.csrgc.com.cn/g2148/s4916/t67314.aspx

It is part of project 973 to conduct R&D on HSR research, so it more of a technology demostrator than a prototype for an actual product.

http://www.51crh.com/thread-131155-1-1.html


As discussed on this thread before, the train recently underwent speed test on Shanghai-Cha gsha aimming to break 600km/h, but appear to be speed limited to just 385 km/h.

http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3243945948?pn=0&


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Could somebody update the progress of the following high speed railways:

Longhua-Futian high speed railway
Xinhuang-Guiyang-Kunming high speed railway
Taiyuan-Datong high speed railway
Tianjin-Baoding high speed railway
Hefei-Shangrao-Fuzhou high speed railway
Jilin-Hunchun high speed railway
Ganzhou-Longyan railway second track
Dongguan-Huizhou high speed railway
Foshan-Zhaoqing high speed railway
Hankou-Xiaogan high speed railway
Chengdu-Pujiang high speed railway
Changsha-Zhuzhou-Xiangtan high speed railway
Nanjing-Anqing high speed railway
Harbin-Qiqihar high speed railway
Chengdu-Chongqing high speed railway
Shenyang-Dandong high speed railway
Dandong-Dalian high speed railway


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Might be a silly question but are these like the last lines to be constructed before the CRH network is complete? Not that it will ever be complete but will these complete the initial High Speed railway plan?


----------



## xjtyou

chornedsnorkack said:


> Could somebody update the progress of the following high speed railways:
> 
> Longhua-Futian high speed railway
> Xinhuang-Guiyang-Kunming high speed railway
> Taiyuan-Datong high speed railway
> Tianjin-Baoding high speed railway
> Hefei-Shangrao-Fuzhou high speed railway
> Jilin-Hunchun high speed railway
> Ganzhou-Longyan railway second track
> Dongguan-Huizhou high speed railway
> Foshan-Zhaoqing high speed railway
> Hankou-Xiaogan high speed railway
> Chengdu-Pujiang high speed railway
> Changsha-Zhuzhou-Xiangtan high speed railway
> Nanjing-Anqing high speed railway
> Harbin-Qiqihar high speed railway
> Chengdu-Chongqing high speed railway
> Shenyang-Dandong high speed railway
> Dandong-Dalian high speed railway


2.Xinhuang-Guiyang will operate on 1st July,2015
5.Hefei-huangshan-shangrao-Fuzhou will operate on 1st July,2015
13.Nanjing-Anqing rail will operate at the end of this year,hopefully.
15.Chengdu-chongqing high speed railway will operate in October 2015


----------



## voyager221

Third day, Huangshan North to Wuyishan East(into Fujian province)
By 西安赵建强

Huangshan North Station




































A simple birthday party for one of the attendents


















Arrived at Wuyishan East


----------



## chornedsnorkack

voyager221 said:


> First 300km/h+ HSR in Fujian and Southern Anhui, two of the top ten tourist attractions in China(Huangshan, Wuyishan) and the most scenic county(Wuyuan) in the country are along the line, and it connects with several other HSRs making these places become reachable from most part of the country by fast, safe, comfortable and all weather means of transportation.


When on 1st of July Shangrao-Fuzhou high speed railway opens, what shall be the fastest way to travel Hangzhou-Fuzhou? Detouring inland via Shangrao, but 300 km/h all the way, or on the existing high speed railway via Ningbo but limited to 200 km/h between Ningbo and Fuzhou?


----------



## voyager221

chornedsnorkack said:


> When on 1st of July Shangrao-Fuzhou high speed railway opens, what shall be the fastest way to travel Hangzhou-Fuzhou? Detouring inland via Shangrao, but 300 km/h all the way, or on the existing high speed railway via Ningbo but limited to 200 km/h between Ningbo and Fuzhou?


3.5 hours via inland route vs 5+ hours along coastline

----------------------------------------------------
Fourth day, Wuyishan East to Shangrao, a quick visit to Nanchan West EMU Depot
By 西安赵建强

Wuyishan East Station



























Shangrao Station Hefei-Fuzhou HSR elevated platforms


















Looking up from Shanghai-kunming HSR platform









Going to Nanchang West


















Red line--Hefei-Fuzhou HSR, pink line--Shanghai-Kunming HSR, black line--Shanghai-Kunming conventional railway









Nanchang West EMU Depot quick vist


----------



## Cosmicbliss

Whats an elevated platform?


----------



## voyager221

Cosmicbliss said:


> Whats an elevated platform?


On a viaduct, same as those Mumbai Metro station platforms.
The tracks and platforms of Hefei-Fuzhou HSR are at a higher level above those of Shanghai-Kunming HSR, this way both HSRs can keep their track alignments straight, non-stop trains don't need to slow down when passing through the station.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

How are the high speed rail lines and stations arranged around the junction of Hangzhou-Fuzhou-Shenzhen high speed railway with Hefei-Fuzhou high speed railway in Fuzhou?


----------



## :jax:

Sunfuns said:


> I'm not an expert of course, but my educated guess would be that NE China will be a big loser from such a transition. Will be difficult to compete for knowledge workers with areas further South. Who would willingly choose the climate of Harbin over that of Guangzhou?


I see the climate as the strongest argument against Guangdong, Hong Kong and Macau. Too hot, too wet, too stormy. Harbin is too hot too (in the summer), and the Siberian hinterlands don't help much either for climate or business. Geographically Shenyang is better placed. I think the Bohai bay has about the best climate in China, not too hot, not too cold, not too wet too often. 

Eventually Dandong will be all about Seoul/South Korea (and Japan). It is hard to say when or how that will happen, but it will. Now it is all about North Korea trade and services.


----------



## Cosmicbliss

Why would South Korea need Dandong? First Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia need to attract SEZs from China and build railways just across the border. NK itself can have manufacturing but only across the border not deep inside. Influx of PRC tourists will boost the economy. Japan is too far away from Dandong.  I really wish that the PRC can play the role HK did not the PRC in 1970s/80s. Use Dandong/Kunming/Dali/Hhotot/Xinjiang to attract manufacturing across the border and have SEZs with workers from those regions but Chinese companies building infra/promoting Chinese language/ and creating a bi or even trilingual population. Win win for all sides.

Even historically China was like a gateway, the old silk road between the Stans and Europe and Asia. A road-rail network across China fuelled by HSR could on the one hand lead to a huge Chinese tourist influx into those regions creating prosperity and on the other, nfra opportunities for Chinese companies and employment for locals.


----------



## tiger24

Awesome plan!


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Cosmicbliss said:


> First Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia need to attract SEZs from China and build railways just across the border.


Cambodia cannot, having no border with China.

Burma, India, Bhutan, Nepal, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Russia and Mongolia do have border with China.


----------



## :jax:

Dandong itself is merely a border town, though one with a significant port, but one day North Korea will not be isolated, and isolating, the way it is now. That day Seoul and the rest of South Korea will have a land route to China and the rest of Eurasia. That route will go through Dandong (there are other routes, but they are longer and less convenient). 

HSR will go Dandong-Shenyang-Beijing and beyond, and maybe one day Dandong-Dalian-Yantai-(Qingdao)-Shanghai and beyond.


----------



## voyager221

Guizhou-Guangzhou HSR, such a unique blend of Karst landscape, picturesque villages, and sleek HSR tracks

Old picture just before it's officially opened


----------



## Cosmicbliss

How are toilets maintained on CRH?

Also, what plans to speed up NON-CRH trains??


----------



## voyager221

Cosmicbliss said:


> How are toilets maintained on CRH?
> 
> Also, what plans to speed up NON-CRH trains??


All CRH trains are fitted with vacuum toilets, all CRH EMU Depots and big stations have waste collecting facilities.
All the 25T, 25K and most 25G carriages are fitted with vacuum toilets, the ones without are being phased out.

No plan yet. 160km/h top speed for normal passenger trains is sufficient at the moment considering some CRH trains are only running at 200km/h to 210km/h. Better timetable scheduling is more befeficial to the passengers since the base price of the ticket is directly related to the top speed.


----------



## biesiadnik

^^
Look very impressive


----------



## ren0312

Why have sleeper carriages for HSR, for journeys that will take that long people will just choose to fly/


----------



## ren0312

Is there a need for such a dense HSR network, because it looks like some lines are underused right now, if you look at Germany its HSR is really not that extensive, and a lot of people will still prefer driving or flying to riding a train.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

ren0312 said:


> Why have sleeper carriages for HSR, for journeys that will take that long people will just choose to fly/


China is the only country with HSR long enough to test this.
People do ride HSR sleepers, not only fly.


----------



## xjtyou

ren0312 said:


> Why have sleeper carriages for HSR, for journeys that will take that long people will just choose to fly/


 HSR with sleeper carriages are quite economical, as they run at night and you can save the hotel fees for one night. From GUangzhou to Beijing, an HSR sleeper is 700 CNY which is cheaper than most flight.


----------



## foxmulder

ren0312 said:


> Is there a need for such a dense HSR network, because it looks like some lines are underused right now, if you look at Germany its HSR is really not that extensive, and a lot of people will still prefer driving or flying to riding a train.


I think one needs to compare whole Europe to China. And China has many many more people. So, no, I don't agree with you on this one. If anything, some lines will require parallel ones sooner than later.


----------



## kunming tiger

ren0312 said:


> Is there a need for such a dense HSR network, because it looks like some lines are underused right now, if you look at Germany its HSR is really not that extensive, and a lot of people will still prefer driving or flying to riding a train.


 So the German HSR system should be the model for the rest of the world to follow?

If Germany doesn't have an extensive and dense system due to the lack of a need then China should follow suit.

In other words China shouldnt build anything Germany doesn't already have in terms of infrastruture so on. 

What is true for a country of 80 million is equally true anywhere else?

Exactly where do economies of scale , population . population density come into play ? 

If China's HSR system is underused then you have set a high benchmark because no other country comes close in terms of passenger volume.


----------



## Cosmicbliss

When will the China Laos railway start building?


----------



## Cosmicbliss

ren0312 said:


> Is there a need for such a dense HSR network, because it looks like some lines are underused right now, if you look at Germany its HSR is really not that extensive, and a lot of people will still prefer driving or flying to riding a train.


Germany is as small as Hunan, Guangdong or any province of China. Which province has the same HSR network as Germany?


----------



## urbanfan89

Cosmicbliss said:


> How are toilets maintained on CRH?


They're stored in a septic tank emptied at the end of the journey. The traditional method is too filthy.



> Also, what plans to speed up NON-CRH trains??


Most major lines have already been upgraded to at least 160 km/h (some with 200 km/h). But, the master plan is to shift most passenger trains to high speed lines, creating more room for profitable freight trains.


----------



## Cosmicbliss

No, I meant how CLEAN are the toilets generally?


----------



## Fan Railer

Cosmicbliss said:


> No, I meant how CLEAN are the toilets generally?


LOL... it's hit or miss, really.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> If anything, some lines will require parallel ones sooner than later.


Do you know which ones?


----------



## Wbnemo1

*New to board....I need help, looking for references on CRH380D*

I'm new to this board, Hi everyone  

I need some help in finding drawings, plans or anything that will help me to build a highly detailed model of the exterior of the CRH380D.. I've been scouring the internet for what ever I can find, but so far, not much luck. Perhaps I'm not searching the right area, so any help in the department would be greatly appreciated... Thank you

Will


----------



## voyager221

Wbnemo1 said:


> I'm new to this board, Hi everyone
> 
> I need some help in finding drawings, plans or anything that will help me to build a highly detailed model of the exterior of the CRH380D.. I've been scouring the internet for what ever I can find, but so far, not much luck. Perhaps I'm not searching the right area, so any help in the department would be greatly appreciated... Thank you
> 
> Will


A couple of people in China are trying to come up with an illustrated handbook of CRH trainsets in the near future. CRH380D will be included in the handbook. I think that's the best bet to get anything as detailed as those 3-way aircraft drawings.


----------



## Wbnemo1

Thank you for the reply...
that may be just what I need...I have seen the Harmony 1:160 scale collection piece on several websites, but everybody is out of them, so unless someone has any better idea, I'm gonna have to do a cad drawing and have my 3d modeller make it
Will


----------



## urbanfan89

chornedsnorkack said:


> Do you know which ones?


Another Beijing to Tianjin HSR is already being planned. Another line between Shanghai and Nanjing is near construction. In both cases the lines will relieve the existing HSR while providing service to areas without any railways.

Also, a "proper" HSR is planned between Jinan and Qingdao, and between Nanjing and Sichuan. The detailed route of the latter is still under consideration.


----------



## FM 2258

urbanfan89 said:


> Another Beijing to Tianjin HSR is already being planned. Another line between *Shanghai and Nanjing* is near construction. In both cases the lines will relieve the existing HSR while providing service to areas without any railways.
> 
> Also, a "proper" HSR is planned between Jinan and Qingdao, and between Nanjing and Sichuan. The detailed route of the latter is still under consideration.


So there will be pretty much 4 high speed lines between Shanghai and Nanjing! Wow. I call the conventional line high-speed since CRH trains used to run on it.


----------



## doc7austin

> People do ride HSR sleepers, not only fly.


Domestic flights are usually severely delayed in China due to congested airports and airways. 
Take a route like PEK-CAN.
If weather rolls into PEK (in the summer-time) or CAN, you are SOL.


----------



## BEE2

urbanfan89 said:


> Another Beijing to Tianjin HSR is already being planned. Another line between Shanghai and Nanjing is near construction. In both cases the lines will relieve the existing HSR while providing service to areas without any railways.
> 
> Also, a "proper" HSR is planned between Jinan and Qingdao, and between Nanjing and Sichuan. The detailed route of the latter is still under consideration.




What is the speed limit of the prospective Beijing-Tianjin line????:nuts:
300 or 350 km/h?? or lower?


----------



## Pansori

Another line between SHanghai and Nanjing? So 3 HSR lines plus one upgraded semi-HSR line? Wow!


----------



## doc7austin

Here is my video report from my recent journey on the Nanning - Guangzhou High-Speed Railway with train D3602 in an (empty) First Class cabin. The journey took 4 hours and 4 minutes on 563 km long track between Guangzhou South and Nanning East Railway Station. The train never exceeded a speed of 200 km/h.
During the first part of the journey rain was settling in. However, the further were travelling towards the West (towards Nanning, Guangxi Province) the more the weather cleared up and we had the chance the marvelous tropical karst landscape and rice fields.






It took me some time to compile this video. I would like to give people outside of China a feeling of Chinese high-speed railway system, hence, I was filming from different angles (outside to the right, outside to the left, outside cockpit view, inside).
Feedback is much appreciated.


----------



## Pansori

^^
Thanks alot. I am planning to go from Guangzhou to Nanning (part of my Hong Kong to Saigon railway journey) later this year. This is _very_ useful. kay:


----------



## sebass123

how many kms of HSR does china have now, and how many are being planned? can someone show me a map of the existing lines pls


----------



## BEE2

Pansori said:


> ^^
> Thanks alot. I am planning to go from Guangzhou to Nanning (part of my Hong Kong to Saigon railway journey) later this year. This is _very_ useful. kay:


hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:

Bullet train vacation again??? What a super rich Lithuanian ! :nuts:


----------



## BEE2

The journey took 4 hours and 4 minutes on 563 km long track between Guangzhou South and Nanning East Railway Station. The train never exceeded a speed of *200* km/h.


Can they still claim it is 'bullet' train with speed lower than 200km/h?????


----------



## Pansori

BEE2 said:


> hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:
> 
> Bullet train vacation again??? What a super rich Lithuanian ! :nuts:


Actually not rich at all. Just loving to get around here and there abit. Life's too short to stay in one place all the time. 

But yes another train vacation. I'll try to document it as much as I can with a few bits of new equipment that I got specifically for this purpose. 



BEE2 said:


> Can they still claim it is 'bullet' train with speed lower than 200km/h?????


It's a D service which means it's limited to 200km/h (even if technically could go faster). Although in some instances D trains do speed up to 250km/h on some specific stretches of railway.


----------



## DigiTonny

sebass123 said:


> how many kms of HSR does china have now, and how many are being planned? can someone show me a map of the existing lines pls


After 2015,more than 20000km


----------



## voyager221

By 1st of July this year, there will be 9200+km HSR with 300km/h operational speed, over 1100 300km/h+ 8-car high speed trains put into services.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

voyager221 said:


> Not 100% certain, the official timetable hasn't been revealed yet, the original plan was to open this section at the end of this month, since the trial run proved to be very successful, the openning was moved to 16th, not sure if all the stations on this section are ready or not by the time.


16th is tomorrow.
Has the timetable been revealed?


----------



## voyager221

chornedsnorkack said:


> 16th is tomorrow.
> Has the timetable been revealed?


Not yet. Rumour is that only a handful temporary services will run between Guiyang North to Changsha South from 17th till 30th. Official opening day will be 1st of July.


----------



## voyager221

chornedsnorkack said:


> 16th is tomorrow.
> Has the timetable been revealed?


Latest rumour, tickets selling for the temorary services between Guiyang North and Changsha South on 17th, the services running from 18th to 30th.

Shanghai-Kunming HSR Guizhou section, from "People's Daily"


----------



## winterfell04

voyager221 said:


> Guizhou-Guangzhou HSR, such a unique blend of Karst landscape, picturesque villages, and sleek HSR tracks
> 
> Old picture just before it's officially opened


OMG in love. Is there a HD version of this picture somewhere? Or a poster I can buy??!


----------



## Cosmicbliss

We have to, HAVE TO, make a China High Speed Railway calendar!!


----------



## augst6

Does anyone know whether Xinghuo station will be connected to other major HSR stations in Beijing?

As Beijing-Shenyang is slated to terminate at Xinghuo, Wouldn't integrated services with other lines be impossible? I would like to have a Guangzhou-Harbin ride in the future!

I wonder if they could build an underground line such as the one connecting Beijing station and BJ west. Thus dismissing the noise pollution concerns of residents.

Please please please make it happen. It would be pretty dumb to take the subway between HSR rides...


----------



## Cosmicbliss

Hi Chinese knowing guys, this is a video https://www.facebook.com/shanghaiist/videos/10152781709771030/. It shows Deng Xiaoping travelling by HSR for the first time and looking quite awed and impressed. What exactly is he saying? And what comments is he making? Please help. There are only Chinese subtitles. But its impossible for me.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

He would be thoroughly impressed with his home country if he were alive today. China has the most impressive high speed rail network in the world.


----------



## Cosmicbliss

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> He would be thoroughly impressed with his home country if he were alive today. China has the most impressive high speed rail network in the world.


But I feel its not as dense yet as Japan. Considering that, at least in the south and east-PRD/YRD it should be at least as dense as Japan and speeds accelerated. :banana:

And yeah, I'm waiting for some translation.


----------



## hamstergogogo

augst6 said:


> Does anyone know whether Xinghuo station will be connected to other major HSR stations in Beijing?
> 
> As Beijing-Shenyang is slated to terminate at Xinghuo, Wouldn't integrated services with other lines be impossible? I would like to have a Guangzhou-Harbin ride in the future!
> 
> I wonder if they could build an underground line such as the one connecting Beijing station and BJ west. Thus dismissing the noise pollution concerns of residents.
> 
> Please please please make it happen. It would be pretty dumb to take the subway between HSR rides...


In the long run it has to be, but there isnt any short term plan for it due to NIMBYs.

Its ironic how some NIMBYs in Beijing organized multiple demonstrations to protest again Jing-Shen HSR and successfully handicapped it , while IMBYs in other provinces demanded HSR in bloody clashes.


----------



## hamstergogogo

Cosmicbliss said:


> Hi Chinese knowing guys, this is a video https://www.facebook.com/shanghaiist/videos/10152781709771030/. It shows Deng Xiaoping travelling by HSR for the first time and looking quite awed and impressed. What exactly is he saying? And what comments is he making? Please help. There are only Chinese subtitles. But its impossible for me.


he was asked how he liked shinkansen after riding it, and he replied, "i felt its fast, sort of urging people to run. that is why it is the most appropriate time for us to ride such a train." i guess he was referring to speeding up reform/growth.


----------



## hkskyline

*Kaifeng Songchenglu 开封宋城路 *


----------



## voyager221

doc7austin said:


> Does anyone have some detailed information about the safety systems of Chinese high speed trains, esp. if the train is moving too fast?
> 
> While riding the high speed train G68 between Guangzhou and Shanghai, a very loud alarm sound was activated and from that we began to slow down even more.


Have consulted an experienced CRH driver, the beeping sound in the carriage was definately from smoke alarm. In early years, every time the smoke alarm was triggered, the ATP braked the train to a full stop, every time the culprit was found out to be someone smoking in the toilet, so the procedure has been revised to slow down from 300km/h to 160km/h first, when the source was found to be smoker, ATP cancelled the alarm and returned the train to normal speed.

So what will ATP do if the train is speeding?
When the train is speeding, ATP will warn the driver by highlighting some region in orange/red colour on the DMI(Driver Machine Interface) screen as well as beeping sound and a female voice warning - "减速,减速"(reduce the speed), when the train is travelling in CSM(ceiling speed monitoring) region, if the speed is 5km/h over the ceil, ATP will activate maximum service brake to bring the train back to the allowed speed, if 10km/h over the ceil, ATP will activate maximum emergency brake to bring the train to a halt, this could happen only when ATP in "Driver in control supervised by ATP" mode.
When the train is travelling in TSM(target speed monitoring) region, when ATP detects the speed is over the SBI(serive brake intervention) curve, ATP will activate maximum service brake to bring the speed back to the curve. When ATP detects the speed is over the EBI(emergency brake intervention) curve, ATP will activate maximum emergency brake to bring the train to stop. Again the latter only happens when ATP in "Driver in control supervised by ATP" mode. CRH trains have all been set up as "ATP in full control" mode as default.

Here is an example what it sounds like in the cab when speeding, the video was shot in the cab when doing test run on Hefei-Fuzhou HSR, obviously ATP main function has been disabled except the warning.
http://video.weibo.com/show?fid=1034:8d1b675577df3a82c8723833cf63a69f&utm_source=weibolife

Here's a picture of ATP screen showing the train is travelling in CSM region. What we know from MRSP(Most Restrictive Speed Profile, the diagram on top right of the screen) is the speed ceiling of next 8km of track is 300km/h. 









BTW, the speed displayed in the carriages is not accurate. It's calculated with the data from the axle speed sensor without recalibration, the wheel diameter is decreasing gradually by wear and tear, so the shown speed is always slightly faster that the real speed. You can test this with GPS app on the phone.

I hope I got the description right, still trying to understand the principles of CTCS/ETCS and how they are applied under different circumstances.


----------



## ren0312

Has anybody looked into the hyperloop? How will customers respond to 3 hours inside a sealed tube w/o windows.


----------



## ren0312

Is the HSR network making money or losing money overall, beside the Beijing to Shanghai corridor, is it at least taking in enough revenue to cover operating costs plus new investments?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

voyager221 said:


> Latest rumour, tickets selling for the temorary services between Guiyang North and Changsha South on 17th, the services running from 18th to 30th.


Have any tickets been sold?


----------



## voyager221

chornedsnorkack said:


> Have any tickets been sold?





















Shown on Ctrip
http://english.ctrip.com/trains/Lis...贵阳&ArrivalStation=长沙南&TrainNo=&searchboxArg=t

They are ready to entertain you. Flashmob in Guiyang North station main hall



























Full timetable of all the trains depart from and arrive at Guiyang North from 1st of July


----------



## xjtyou

ren0312 said:


> Has anybody looked into the hyperloop? How will customers respond to 3 hours inside a sealed tube w/o windows.


You should ask this question in the thread of United states high speed railway


----------



## ren0312

xjtyou said:


> You should ask this question in the thread of United states high speed railway


No I mean should the Chinese government look into using the hyperloop in China, perhaps sponsoring a test track for Musk?


----------



## voyager221

Additional 286-kilometre stretch of high speed railway line added to CRH network


----------



## chornedsnorkack

How many stations are between Guiyang and Xinhuang?
Shall any trains terminate or originate in these stations and thus serve the railway section, but not Guiyang?


----------



## Silver Swordsman

^^That last picture is so picturesque...

On another note, why does the CRH380A in the above pic have its headlights on? To my knowledge, China runs its trains on the left track, which means, unless the station at which the picture was taken is the terminus station and the train is about to reverse back (the thoroughfare lines are visible on the right), the train nose in question should be displaying the tail lights. 

Someone please enlighten me.


EDIT: Checked the timetables above. The station at which the picture was taken is Guiyangbei, which is a terminus station.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Silver Swordsman said:


> EDIT: Checked the timetables above. The station at which the picture was taken is Guiyangbei, which is a terminus station.


How does Xinhuang-Guiyang high speed railway connect to Guiyang-Guangzhou high speed railway in Guiyang?


----------



## hkskyline

*New railways get integration underway*
China Daily _Excerpt_
2015-06-19

Construction of a high-speed railway connecting Beijing and nearby Tangshan, Hebei province, will start within the year, said Liu Bozheng, deputy director of the Beijing Development and Reform Commission, during a recent forum on Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei integration.

The railway is considered a key line of the "one-hour-trip zone" in and near Beijing. To support the integration process, authorities hope to build ample infrastructure to make it possible to travel in the region within one hour.

According to Wang Mengshu, an academic from the Chinese Academy of Engineering and an experienced railway engineer, several high-speed railways connect Beijing and Tianjin but none serve Hebei; the Beijing-Tangshan line will be the first.

As well as the Beijing-Tangshan line, the second environmental impact evaluation has started on another inter-city railway listed in the plan, the Beijing-Zhangjiakou line. If passed, construction could start on one part of it, at the Badaling Mountain area, within months.

In a guiding document on transportation facility development issued by the National Commission of Development and Reform on May 27, authorities vowed to build "a region on rails" and raised the plan of more intercity railways. Surveys are being done on the lines that link Beijing and Chengde and Hengshui, in Hebei province, and more train lines are expected.

"The first high-speed railway linking Beijing and Tianjin was designed for passengers only and hardly helps cargo transportation," said Wang.

"The new lines will serve both passengers and goods transportation, thus meeting both demands among the three regions."

A research report by China International Capital Corp Ltd shows that passenger and goods transportation facilities in the Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei region are far from enough to meet the demand. The CICC report compares the region with the Yangtze River Delta and Pearl River Delta, two traditionally prosperous regions in China with relatively better infrastructure, and found there is still a gap.


----------



## voyager221

Hefei South EMU Depot maintenance shed
Got to love the modern look of all these new facilities

By CREC王轩


----------



## hkskyline

*Zhengzhou East*


----------



## luhai

ren0312 said:


> No I mean should the Chinese government look into using the hyperloop in China, perhaps sponsoring a test track for Musk?


Unless Musk starts to share technology, no. Even if he's willing to share, he'll probably need to have some working models before China will chip in. Fancy drawing usually doesn't impress Chinese investors.


----------



## hkskyline

*High-speed rail keeps Guangxi growth on track*
23 June 2015
China Daily _Excerpt_

A new service is providing the first express link between Beijing and a badly disadvantaged area. The service, primarily designed to aid the development of the Guangxi Zhuang autonomous region, has been successful so far, and there are now plans to extend its coverage, as Huo Yan and Xin Dingding report from Nanning.

A high-speed rail network that stretches almost 2,500 kilometers across a single country is not a common phenomenon. 

In Japan, such a network would be impossible - the train would simply have to pull up at the island nation's Pacific coast - and in Europe, pan-continental high-speed railways have yet to take shape, although many European countries have built their own networks.

In September, a high-speed rail service opened between Beijing and Nanning, the capital of the Guangxi Zhuang autonomous region, a distance of 2,489 km. The line is now the longest in China, and makes Guangxi the first of the country's five autonomous regions to be linked to the capital by high-speed rail.

Guangxi, in South China, is home to 12 ethnic groups. The region borders Vietnam, and its long coastline with Southeast Asia means it's regarded as a major gateway to member countries of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations.

Despite those advantages, more than 30 years after the start of the reform and opening-up policy Guangdong province has become China's economic powerhouse, while Guangxi's GDP is worth just a fifth of that of its smaller neighbor.

Poor infrastructure

Many observers have blamed the disparity on the region's immature transport infrastructure, which was so poor that before December, there were no direct rail connections between Nanning and nearby Guangzhou, the capital of Guangdong. Every year as the Spring Festival holiday approached, the expressways would be clogged with hundreds of thousands of migrant workers riding motorbikes from their workplaces in Guangdong to their homes in Guangxi.

Now, things are changing and a high-speed railway network is being planned that would crisscross China's 9.63 million square kilometers of territory. An extended network of this type would enable passengers to zip between major cities such as Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou and other parts of the country within half a day.

The ambitious plan has already been realized in Guangxi, where more than 1,000 km of high-speed rail came into use in 2013. Now, the trip from Beijing to Nanning takes 13 hours and 30 minutes, cutting the journey time by half. Passengers can depart from North China in the morning, and arrive in South China in the evening.

The streamlined train departs Beijing West Railway Station at 7:30 am and initially uses the Beijing-Guangzhou high-speed line, reaching a top speed of 300 km/h. When the train reaches Hengyang in Hunan province, it slows to a maximum 200 km/h and switches track to the Hengyang-Liuzhou line. The last change in the journey comes when the train switches again, this time to the Liuzhou-Nanning high-speed line.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

No direct rail between Nanning and Guangzhou....they really got an awesome upgrade! Congratulations to Nanning.


----------



## doc7austin

There has been a classic non-electrified direct rail link between Guangzhou and Nanning via Maoming. Several K-trains travel on this route each day.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

doc7austin said:


> There has been a classic non-electrified direct rail link between Guangzhou and Nanning via Maoming. Several K-trains travel on this route each day.


Sure. It´s fairly indirect, though - 809 km via Maoming vs. 563 km via HSR.


----------



## :jax:

hkskyline said:


> *New railways get integration underway*
> China Daily _Excerpt_
> 2015-06-19
> 
> Construction of a high-speed railway connecting Beijing and nearby Tangshan, Hebei province, will start within the year, said Liu Bozheng, deputy director of the Beijing Development and Reform Commission, during a recent forum on Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei integration.
> 
> The railway is considered a key line of the "one-hour-trip zone" in and near Beijing. To support the integration process, authorities hope to build ample infrastructure to make it possible to travel in the region within one hour.
> 
> According to Wang Mengshu, an academic from the Chinese Academy of Engineering and an experienced railway engineer, several high-speed railways connect Beijing and Tianjin but none serve Hebei; the Beijing-Tangshan line will be the first.


There are several HSR lines going to/through Hebei, but my Guangdong envy is for the Pearl River Delta intercity network they are building, with a connected network integrated with other networks (metro, HSR). 

As I have gotten the new line described, *Liyuan (Tongzhou) - Xianghe (Langfang/Hebei)-Baodi (Tianjin)- ? - Tangshan (Hebei)*, it is not too auspicious. 

Notice the Liyuan terminus. By the look of it the number of disconnected Beijing termini has just increased by one. The rule seems to be "new line, new disconnected station", connecting these stations into a Beijing network is not. 

Getting to Beijing(-ish) is quick and easy. Getting from there to anywhere is a challenge.

Speaking of PRD intercity, does anyone have a full-size updated map? The one I've used has turned into a thumbnail.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> *High-speed rail keeps Guangxi growth on track*
> 23 June 2015
> China Daily _Excerpt_
> 
> A new service is providing the first express link between Beijing and a badly disadvantaged area. The service, primarily designed to aid the development of the Guangxi Zhuang autonomous region, has been successful so far, and there are now plans to extend its coverage, as Huo Yan and Xin Dingding report from Nanning.


Since the article has been cross-posted, I´ll cross-post my responses as well.


hkskyline said:


> A high-speed rail network that stretches almost 2,500 kilometers across a single country is not a common phenomenon.
> 
> In Japan, such a network would be impossible - the train would simply have to pull up at the island nation's Pacific coast


False.
Shinkansen is 2000 km from Kagoshima to Aomori.
It does pass under Pacific Ocean between Honshu and Kyushu.
When Hokkaido Shinkansen opens, it shall be almost 2500 km.


hkskyline said:


> In September, a high-speed rail service opened between Beijing and Nanning, the capital of the Guangxi Zhuang autonomous region, a distance of 2,489 km. The line is now the longest in China, and makes Guangxi the first of the country's five autonomous regions to be linked to the capital by high-speed rail.


Yes. Despite the proximity of Inner Mongolia to Beijing, there is no link.


hkskyline said:


> Now, things are changing and a high-speed railway network is being planned that would crisscross China's 9.63 million square kilometers of territory. An extended network of this type would enable passengers to zip between major cities such as Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou and other parts of the country within half a day.


... that is 12 hours


hkskyline said:


> The ambitious plan has already been realized in Guangxi, where more than 1,000 km of high-speed rail came into use in 2013. Now, the trip from Beijing to Nanning takes 13 hours and 30 minutes, cutting the journey time by half.


But not to half a day.


----------



## Sunfuns

I find it funny that the selling point of this new infrastructure is a train to Beijing even though it takes half a day anyway. This new line is probably quite important, but not for that trip. Would be much more useful to advertise how much faster and more conveniently one can now get to Guangzhou. Any idea how much is it? Google says a bit more than 6 h by car.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Sunfuns said:


> Would be much more useful to advertise how much faster and more conveniently one can now get to Guangzhou. Any idea how much is it?


Nanning East-Guangzhou South
1 daily express train, D202, nonstop 3:19
26 daily non-express trains, 3 (D3695) to 9 (D3635) intermediate stops, trip time 3:44 (D3695) to 4:17 (D3685)
price second class 169 yuan, first class 202 yuan 5 jiao, business class offered on 2 daily G trains at 506 yuan 5 jiao


----------



## Sunfuns

That's more like it. Still within a sweet zone for HSR an going to an important commercial centre in China. 

Incidentally what's so special about that G train business class that it would cost more than twice as much a first class?


----------



## voyager221

CRH380B doing trial run on Hefei-Fuzhou HSR according to the operational timetable

Hefei South station



























Cab visit 
Thers's five MMIs, four are shown in this picture, the one at the far left outside of the picture is ATP backup.
From left to right in the picture, braking system, ATP, doors(at station)/traction system(moving), CIR(Cab Integrated Radio communication system, via GSM-R)









First MMI from the left showing all 8 carriages are applying brakes,
Third MMI showing all the doors at left side are open









Left Hefei South station, hard accelerating, brake handle fully foward(no brake), throttle handle fully foward(full traction), 
ASC(Automatic speed control) handle(next to throttle handle) should be at fully foward position as well(vmax-300km/h)
From ATP, speed restrictions between 200km/h and 250km/h next 8km









Passing Changlinghe station, hand gesture means "Caution while passing"









Temporary stop on Tongling Yangtze river bridge, no idea why
From ATP, the permitted speed on the bridge is 250km/h,
Traction MMI showing voltage of overhead cable(27500v), traction current(0A), traction from each traction unit(two units both at 0%) 









Another big bridge over Yangtze river, four railway tracks, six(?) lanes highway









Passing another small station









Reaching 298km/h, signal given by track circuit is green5, meaning seven free blocks ahead, given each block is over 2km, that's 14km track ahead with no other trains.
speed profile diagram showing 300km/h constant speed ceiling next 4km









Arrived at Huangshan North


----------



## voyager221

By Arles猫段

Beijing-Shanghai HSR through 600mm lens, about 5km south of Bengbu station









Hefei-Bengbu HSR southbound track overpassing Beijing-Shanghai HSR, both trains just left Bengbu station going southbound


----------



## foxmulder

Those last two pictures are epic.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Sunfuns said:


> That's more like it. Still within a sweet zone for HSR an going to an important commercial centre in China.
> 
> Incidentally what's so special about that G train business class that it would cost more than twice as much a first class?


Compare and contrast fairly similar distance: Changsha South-Guangzhou South.
96 high speed trains daily:
5 express trains, nonstop, trip time 2:22 to 2:24
90 stopping G trains, 1 to 6 intermediate stops, trip time 2:30 (G93) to 3:02 (G6145)
ticket price second class 314 yuan, first class 504 yuan, VIP seat 600 yuan, business class seat 995 yuan
1 D train D2101, 9 stops, trip time 4:22
ticket price second class 219 yuan, first class 349 yuan, business class 654 yuan


----------



## krisu99

Thanks for the gerat posts, voyager, impressive!

I noticed the hand gesture image you described with
_"Passing Changlinghe station, hand gesture means "Caution while passing""_

So the driver is taught to rise his hand forming a hollow fist when passing a station, I guess the idea is to increase awareness of the train driver himself in order "to do the right things" according to the situation he just recognized?

This is interesting, I have not heard of such procedures for train drivers in Europe (I think the idea originates in Japan?). 

What is the psychological background of this kind of safety measures? 
What set of gestures or other kind of expression do train drivers practice? 

Would be very curious to learn more ...


----------



## flankerjun

weibo @Satishu http://weibo.com/satishu

New 350KM/H train,this one is from the former CNR Changchun,and there will be one from CSR,too.it will be a milestone for China HSR,there will be a "Chinese Standards" for HSR,it has Unified the passenger UI,driver UI,main parts(like wheels,CRH380B's wheel is larger than CRH380A).they have the same height,width(CRH380B is higer than CRH380A,CRH380A is wider than CRH380b,BUT they will the same for the NEW 350KM/H train)


----------



## kunming tiger

exactly for the past few decades


----------



## Sunfuns

chornedsnorkack said:


> Compare and contrast fairly similar distance: Changsha South-Guangzhou South.
> 96 high speed trains daily:
> 5 express trains, nonstop, trip time 2:22 to 2:24
> 90 stopping G trains, 1 to 6 intermediate stops, trip time 2:30 (G93) to 3:02 (G6145)
> ticket price second class 314 yuan, first class 504 yuan, VIP seat 600 yuan, business class seat 995 yuan
> 1 D train D2101, 9 stops, trip time 4:22
> ticket price second class 219 yuan, first class 349 yuan, business class 654 yuan


Those G train prices are not that far off European HSR prices any more. What is interesting to me is that you have more classes than we do (4 instead of our normal 2).


----------



## voyager221

krisu99 said:


> Thanks for the gerat posts, voyager, impressive!
> 
> I noticed the hand gesture image you described with
> _"Passing Changlinghe station, hand gesture means "Caution while passing""_
> 
> So the driver is taught to rise his hand forming a hollow fist when passing a station, I guess the idea is to increase awareness of the train driver himself in order "to do the right things" according to the situation he just recognized?
> 
> This is interesting, I have not heard of such procedures for train drivers in Europe (I think the idea originates in Japan?).
> 
> What is the psychological background of this kind of safety measures?
> What set of gestures or other kind of expression do train drivers practice?
> 
> Would be very curious to learn more ...


Yes, this kind of procedure did originate from Japan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhUdMYI5PAM

I suppose the idea behind it is human beings are bound to make errors, so when the machines are not intelligent enough to prevent human errors from happening, then make human beings act like machines.
It may be harsh to the drivers, but when thousands people's lives in their hands, it made sense. 
Did Europe take a different approach? That DSD(Driver Safety Device) system is really a pain in the neck.
Just imagine CRH drivers have to press the DSD pedal every 30 secs and do all those hand gestures at the same time, luckily there's plenty long stretches of straight tracks, just need to set up the cruise control then try not to fall asleep.

There's two more hand gestures, pointing foward to the windsreen with two fingers to acknowledge the lineside signals.
Also, in this picture, the driver pointed to the MMI to acknowledge the receipt of the instruction.


----------



## abcpdo

flankerjun said:


> weibo @Satishu
> 
> New 350KM/H train,this one is from the former CNR Changchun,and there will be one from CSR,too.it will be a milestone for China HSR,there will be a "Chinese Standards" for HSR,it has Unified the passenger UI,driver UI,main parts(like wheels,CRH380B's wheel is larger than CRH380A).they have the same height,width(CRH380B is higer than CRH380A,CRH380A is wider than CRH380b,BUT they will the same for the NEW 350KM/H train)


Wow! What an exciting train! Looks like CRH interior design finally caught up! No more of that generic China blue! Not to mention the front looks a lot nicer and "futuristic" than the 380A. 

From what you say, it seems like the train is finally resolving the various standards caused by some trains being German in origin, and others being based off the Shinkansen E2 (380A included). Terrific.


----------



## BEE2

The new multi-colored interior design looks much more pleasant than the previous uniformly colored interior. Thumb up!


----------



## voyager221

abcpdo said:


> Wow! What an exciting train! Looks like CRH interior design finally caught up! No more of that generic China blue! Not to mention the front looks a lot nicer and "futuristic" than the 380A.
> 
> From what you say, it seems like the train is finally resolving the various standards caused by some trains being German in origin, and others being based off the Shinkansen E2 (380A included). Terrific.


What could be the Chinese standard(Just copying, don't understand much personally):

Traction and power: 4M4T(2 traction units) + higher power IGBT + 600kw plus traction motors(synchronous permanent magnet?)

Train communication network: WTB + MVB + ETB

Bogie: 920mm wheel + H frame + Bombardier style motor mounting + better suspension combination

Body: Light weight body structure + rectangle shaped(25000L,3360W,4050H) + more aerodynamic(no intruded A/C or cables)

Others: Long nose with crash zone + better passenger interface + emergency auxiliary power + improvements regarding high voltage units, maintenance etc


----------



## foxmulder

abcpdo said:


> Wow! What an exciting train! Looks like CRH interior design finally caught up! No more of that generic China blue! Not to mention the front looks a lot nicer and "futuristic" than the 380A.
> 
> From what you say, it seems like the train is finally resolving the various standards caused by some trains being German in origin, and others being based off the Shinkansen E2 (380A included). Terrific.


I still find 380A and also CIT500 more attractive. This will be my #4, after 380A, CIT500 and CRH380D.


----------



## abcpdo

foxmulder said:


> I still find 380A and also CIT500 more attractive. This will be my #4, after 380A, CIT500 and CRH380D.


The 380D is my personal top too, but the CIT500 looks "unfinished " (since it is), like it could use a layer of white paint. And imo the 380A's shape just looks undynamic, as if they decided to make it a long simple wedge and go home.


----------



## 孟天宝

Hefei-Fuzhou PDL [合福高铁] opened today.



Xinhuanet said:


> The Hefei-Fuzhou high-speed railway was put into operated on Sunday, which spans east China's Anhui, Jiangxi Provinces and also southeast China's Fujian Province and shortens the travel hours from Hefei to southeast China's Fuzhou to within four hours.


Hefei-Fuzhou High-Speed Railway put into operation









The G5602 high-speed train departs from Fuzhou in southeast China's Fujian Province, June 28, 2015. [From Xinhuanet]









The G2621 high-speed train departs from the Hefei South Railway Station in Hefei, capital of east China's Anhui Province, June 28, 2015. [From Xinhuanet]



Jiangxi Xinhua said:


> 新华网江西频道6月28日电（吴亚芬）6月28日，有最美铁路之称的合福高铁正式通车了！它的通车使闽赣皖三省的武夷山——上饶——婺源——黄山等旅游城市形成“半小时交通圈”，开启了“省际同城生活”。本网在通车首日上午8点57分在福州站登上G2626次福州至合肥南的高铁列车，体验一次“追风之旅”。
> ...


合福高铁今正式通车 开启赣闽皖“省际同城生活”



















More pictures from Anhui Xinhua at 合福高铁正式开通运营


----------



## flankerjun

More pics ,NEW 380KM/H train,[email protected]


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Are there any direct trains between Beijing and Fuzhou via Hefei?


----------



## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> Are there any direct trains between Beijing and Fuzhou via Hefei?


Yes, the trains goes from Beijing to Xiamen, tickets goes on sale 7/1



> 北京南～厦门北G321/G326次、G323/G322次、G325/G324次；


http://news.qq.com/a/20150529/026006.htm


----------



## luhai

ren0312 said:


> Is the HSR network making money or losing money overall, beside the Beijing to Shanghai corridor, is it at least taking in enough revenue to cover operating costs plus new investments?


Losing money overall, in fact, the entire rail company as a whole lost 6 billion yuan Q2015, mainly due to decrease in cargo transport. 

Passanger travel is never meant to make money, it's made to boost the economy, hence tax revenue. This is true for HSR, and even more so for regular passenger rail. In fact, if you just look at operation cost (i.e. discount interested payments for HSR construction loan) regular passenger rail loses even more money, because the ticket prices are still capped at essentially 1990s levels with hardseats routinely at 15 -20 fen / km range. (1.3 - 1.8 US cents per mile). However it's low prices that these that enables poor farmers to travel thousands of miles to work at coastal factories. Chinese passenger rail could introduce yield management price the tickets the same way the airliners does, it will drastically reduced losses and may even turn a profit. However i doubt it's gonna happen, since raising train ticket prices is one of few things that will set off a mass rebellion in China.


----------



## ll2800116

flankerjun said:


> More pics ,NEW 380KM/H train,[email protected]
> 
> 
> 
> Omg they are so impressive , China just go on!!


----------



## Proxynes107

What's the quickest way to get from Nanjing to Huangshan? I dont think there is a direct HSR link yet?


----------



## luhai

Proxynes107 said:


> What's the quickest way to get from Nanjing to Huangshan? I dont think there is a direct HSR link yet?


合福高铁开通后，南京市民要去黄山和婺源就可以乘坐高铁了。从南京南站出发，在合肥南站可实现“零换乘”。即无需出站，直接由站台层上至候车层，而后再由相应的检票口乘坐接续列车。铁路部门推荐去黄山，可在南京南站乘坐至长沙南的G579次，在合肥换乘G1601次，全程运行3小时07分即可到达黄山北站，3小时44分即可到达婺源站。

The recommendation is G579 then G1601, 3 hours and 7 minutes travel time.

For comparesion: long distance bus will take ~5 hours depends on traffic. While the quickest train is K25, 5 hours 45 minutes.


----------



## foxmulder

flankerjun said:


> More pics ,NEW 380KM/H train,[email protected]


Are these pictures showing two different heads of the same train? Or two completely different trains.

The first head is beautiful. :cheers:


----------



## flankerjun

foxmulder said:


> Are these pictures showing two different heads of the same train? Or two completely different trains.
> 
> The first head is beautiful. :cheers:


two trains,one is CNR Changchun,the other is CSR Sifang.


----------



## hightower1

foxmulder said:


> I still find 380A and also CIT500 more attractive. This will be my #4, after 380A, CIT500 and CRH380D.


 I agree 100% with your list and order  380A all the way:cheers:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

luhai said:


> Passanger travel is never meant to make money, it's made to boost the economy, hence tax revenue. This is true for HSR, and even more so for regular passenger rail. In fact, if you just look at operation cost (i.e. discount interested payments for HSR construction loan) regular passenger rail loses even more money, because the ticket prices are still capped at essentially 1990s levels with hardseats routinely at 15 -20 fen / km range. (1.3 - 1.8 US cents per mile). However it's low prices that these that enables poor farmers to travel thousands of miles to work at coastal factories. Chinese passenger rail could introduce yield management price the tickets the same way the airliners does, it will drastically reduced losses and may even turn a profit. However i doubt it's gonna happen, since raising train ticket prices is one of few things that will set off a mass rebellion in China.


Do China´s roads make a profit?
Do airports?

Some comparable distances:
Shenzhen-Xinyang nominally 1370 km. Fastest train G76, trip time 5:26, second class ticket 609 yuan
Shenzhen-Ningbo 1309 km. Fastest train D2282, trip time 9:13, second class ticket 388 yuan 5 jiao
Shenzhen-Macheng 1288 km. Fastest non-G train T398, trip time 13:59, hard seat ticket 156 yuan 5 jiao.

Small differences exist in these distances of around 1300 km. As you can see, taking D train rather than T saves about 5 hours at a cost of 232 yuan over the T train price. Taking G saves additional 3 and a half hours, for about 220 yuan extra.


----------



## voyager221

Two CRH350 prototypes will be officially unveiled today.

Some sneak peeks before the ceremony
First, CRH350 prototype from CRRC(CSR) Sifang
By 铁路小亨


----------



## voyager221

The other CRH350 prototype from CRRC(CNR) Changchun
By 铁路小亨


----------



## voyager221

Ceremony preparation
This set pictures were posted by 铁路小亨 before those detail shots


----------



## voyager221

The weather has cleared up. It's a big day for everyone who's involved in the project. 
(Have some fun before the bosses and VIPs here.)


----------



## foxmulder

Preview, huh....  Nice updates.


----------



## voyager221

foxmulder said:


> Preview, huh....  Nice updates.


Plenty live updates about this event on weibo.com

Can't help but share my excitement here.


----------



## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> Do China´s roads make a profit?
> Do airports?
> 
> Some comparable distances:
> Shenzhen-Xinyang nominally 1370 km. Fastest train G76, trip time 5:26, second class ticket 609 yuan
> Shenzhen-Ningbo 1309 km. Fastest train D2282, trip time 9:13, second class ticket 388 yuan 5 jiao
> Shenzhen-Macheng 1288 km. Fastest non-G train T398, trip time 13:59, hard seat ticket 156 yuan 5 jiao.
> 
> Small differences exist in these distances of around 1300 km. As you can see, taking D train rather than T saves about 5 hours at a cost of 232 yuan over the T train price. Taking G saves additional 3 and a half hours, for about 220 yuan extra.


off topic:

Not sure about airports, but most of the road do make a profit. There they seem to have freedom to make toll prices rather high compared average income etc. I just took a car trip just around my only home province last week, just driving around the prefecture and prefecture next to ours visiting villages and towns. And toll comes at more than 350 yuan, which is quite amazing compared to cost of everything else.

Another thing is bridges, in my hometown, they had the audacity to charge 15 yuan per crossing of a 1960s bridge (which was costs nothing to city to build, constructed by during the revolutionary period when no one was asking money.) since the 1990. The bridge was a major artery connecting two halfs of the city, and since 2000 something like 300k cars crosses it every day. As you can imagine, the city made huge bank on it and the bridge don't look like it had or really need too much maintenance either. God knows where the money went.


-----

On ticket prices, yes indeed there is marginal payoff for time savings per margin cost of the tickets. Some someone at Chinese rail actually have nice charts for marginal benefit of timing saving (express in term of income, urgency [such seeing loved ones]) vs costs of tickets for Beijing-Shanghai route. It's probably some good clean fun for some econ forum members over there.





























*There is a flaw in their analysis though, since for Beijing Shanghai, D train overnight sleeper is probably more to G trains despite longer running time. Since overnight sleeping time is essentially free traveling time.
http://bbs.railcn.net/thread-1487316-1-1.html


----------



## chornedsnorkack

luhai said:


> I just took a car trip just around my only home province last week, just driving around the prefecture and prefecture next to ours visiting villages and towns. And toll comes at more than 350 yuan, which is quite amazing compared to cost of everything else.
> 
> Another thing is bridges, in my hometown, they had the audacity to charge 15 yuan per crossing of a 1960s bridge


15 yuan per which crossing? Car? Pedestrian? Passenger found inside car?


----------



## voyager221

CRRC(CNR) Changchun CRH-0503
By 铁路小亨


----------



## saiho

It doesn't matter if roads and expressways make money in the traditional sense. When you factor in the external costs per passenger-km traveled in both HSR and roads, the road's much greater environmental and social costs will probably make it less profitable than HSR. So roads should make lots of money. If you are going to make a lower capacity, less efficient, space hogging and polluting mode of transport it should at least give you lots of profit.


----------



## voyager221

CRRC(CSR) Sifang CRH-0207
By 铁路小亨


----------



## lolantha2

Why doesn't China use any other colour except white for HSR trains?


----------



## mrsmartman

^^ Clean and tidy. Interesting that gold is one of the favorite colors of Chinese.


----------



## lolantha2

mrsmartman said:


> ^^ Clean and tidy. Interesting that gold is one of the favorite colors of Chinese.


It would be more interesting and add some diversity if they use more colours. At least one specific colour for a line? Or advertisement just like in the UK to increase revenue? Or use paradigmatic paint.


----------



## DEsl

lolantha2 said:


> .......


Aren't you supposed be in the brig?
It would be a big joke if everyone was allowed to post using a 2nd account across SSC every time they get inside the brig:nuts:


----------



## foxmulder

voyager221 said:


> Plenty live updates about this event on weibo.com
> 
> Can't help but share my excitement here.


Awesome, keep going


----------



## FM 2258

Both of those CRH350 trains look awesome and the interiors look much better than current trains. They must have gotten an new interior designer? The brown and tan colors look cozy compared to the cold blue colors in the current interiors. 

I love how China standardizes HSR trains with white but are they moving away from the blue cheatline and incorporating new colors? I think it's cool to have standard colors for CRH trains so when you see a white train you know it's high speed at a glance. 

The only other train I've noticed to move away from the blue cheatline is one of the CRH6 trains. Anyone know what the status of the CRH6 trains are? I haven't seen any new pictures or of where they'll be running. I just love the variety of high speed trains China has. So glad they didn't decide to stick with one type.


----------



## voyager221

FM 2258 said:


> Both of those CRH350 trains look awesome and the interiors look much better than current trains. They must have gotten an new interior designer? The brown and tan colors look cozy compared to the cold blue colors in the current interiors.
> 
> I love how China standardizes HSR trains with white but are they moving away from the blue cheatline and incorporating new colors? I think it's cool to have standard colors for CRH trains so when you see a white train you know it's high speed at a glance.
> 
> The only other train I've noticed to move away from the blue cheatline is one of the CRH6 trains. Anyone know what the status of the CRH6 trains are? I haven't seen any new pictures or of where they'll be running. I just love the variety of high speed trains China has. So glad they didn't decide to stick with one type.


Hopefully most techs and designs used in these prototypes will be incorporated into the production version.

CRH6A(200km/h version) has finished 300,000km operational evaluation and successfully got the certificate, will be put into service first in the pearl river delta area in a couple months' time. 

CRH6F(160km/h version) is still going through this evaluation.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

voyager221 said:


> CRH6A(200km/h version) has finished 300,000km operational evaluation and successfully got the certificate, will be put into service first in the pearl river delta area in a couple months' time.


Sometime in September 2015? Is specific line known?


----------



## voyager221

chornedsnorkack said:


> Sometime in September 2015? Is specific line known?


Dongguan-Huizhou intercity, not sure when now, there seems to be a dispute with the local environment agency.

Other lines in the area have also been mentioned to be the potential users, like under construction Foshan-Zhaoqing intercity(2017?) and existing Guangzhou-Zhuhai intercity.


----------



## stingstingsting

voyager221 said:


> CRRC(CNR) Changchun CRH-0503
> By 铁路小亨


Apologies for being pedantic, but it looks to me like those window blinds cannot be pulled down the whole way. Am I correct?

But hey that is one beautiful train


----------



## voyager221

stingstingsting said:


> Apologies for being pedantic, but it looks to me like those window blinds cannot be pulled down the whole way. Am I correct?
> 
> But hey that is one beautiful train


If they can be pulled all the way down in second class, don't think there should be a problem in VIP class


----------



## Pansori

Those designs look incredible! Pure Love!


----------



## BEE2

Pansori said:


> Those designs look incredible! Pure Love!


hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:
The interior design, especially the upholstery ( in the last pic : dark blue),
still needs to be improved. The last one looks so boring and depressing.

I would rather choose some brighter colors for the uphosltery than dark blue

:no::no::no:


----------



## BEE2

I got a question here. How many drivers do they have on a single bullet train? One or two? I am wondering what if the driver needs to use toilet or get sick suddenly during the trip.


----------



## flankerjun

BEE2 said:


> I got a question here. How many drivers do they have on a single bullet train? One or two? I am wondering what if the driver needs to use toilet or get sick suddenly during the trip.


only one,they have a shift every 2-3 hrs.there is a pedal in the cockpit to make sure the driver is awake,the driver must keep pedaling,otherwise the train will brake Automatically.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

voyager221 said:


> Dongguan-Huizhou intercity, not sure when now, there seems to be a dispute with the local environment agency.
> 
> Other lines in the area have also been mentioned to be the potential users,


Has Dongguan-Huizhou high speed railway been opened?


----------



## voyager221

chornedsnorkack said:


> Has Dongguan-Huizhou high speed railway been opened?


By the end of this year hopefully, this line has drawn some interest since it will be the first line operating CRH6A commercially and the first line adopting CTCS2 + ATO signalling system.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Hefei-Fuzhou high speed railway seems to have opened.
There seem to be 5 daily G trains Beijing-Fuzhou via Hefei, 1 of which, G27, is express taking 7:44 with 7 stops. The other 4 make 16 to 21 stops and take 8:52 to 9:32. 
Ticket price second class 719 yuan, first class 1210 yuan 5 jiao, VIP seat 1368 yuan 5 jiao, business class 2270 yuan.
G55 also still runs via Nanjing and Hangzhou, taking 10:50.


----------



## hmmwv

BEE2 said:


> hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:hno:
> The interior design, especially the upholstery ( in the last pic : dark blue),
> still needs to be improved. The last one looks so boring and depressing.
> 
> I would rather choose some brighter colors for the uphosltery than dark blue
> 
> :no::no::no:


I like brighter color too but it's simply not practical here, it'll get dirty easily and require constant replacement, not something feasible considering how many trains are running and how many people are riding.

On a side note, all those discussion about the new trainset ideally should be in the Chinese HSR Trainset thread.


----------



## Pansori

> World Speed Survey 2015: China remains the pacesetter
> 
> This year, the results show a general coalescence where frequency is the main driver of performance on many routes, with maximum speeds reaching something of a plateau at or slightly above 300 km/h. Our survey finds that the ‘blue riband’ award for the world’s fastest point-to-point rail journey is taken by China Railways Corp’s G66/79, which sprint between Shijiazhuang and Zhengzhou Dong in 81 min at an average speed of 283·4 km/h in each direction. Second in the list is a pair of express trains between Beijing and Nanjing, a distance of 1 021·9 km which is covered in 219 min at an average of 280 km/h.


Full article: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...survey-2015-china-remains-the-pacesetter.html


----------



## drezdinski

Those new Chinese CRHs are quite impressive.


----------



## augst6

Yep, Hefei-Fuzhou HSR opened.

With this opening, now its possible to take a train from Fuzhou to Fuzhou. Yep.

CRH350 looks neat, can't wait to take a ride on it!


----------



## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> 15 yuan per which crossing? Car? Pedestrian? Passenger found inside car?





> 橘子洲大桥是湖南省长沙市境内第一座跨湘江的大桥，习惯上称为“湘江大桥”或“湘江一桥”。位于长沙城区五一路西端、经橘子洲到溁湾镇之间，于1971年9月6日正式开工，1972年10月1日建成通车。其总投资1800万元人民币，费用主要用于购置原料和建材、设备，建设用工主要来自于居民的义务投入。该桥为一座大型钢筋混凝土双曲拱公路桥，全长1250米，主桥21跨，其中正桥17跨、最大宽径76米，桥面净宽20米，其中车行道14米，两边人行道各3米。共有18个台墩，大河的墩身为砼浇筑，小河的墩身用块片石嵌砌。


Per car, Bridge 1 across Xiang river, build in 1971 and opened in 1972 at cost of 18 million Yuan. All labor for construction and design of the bridge was free voluntary, cause that's how people in the revolutionary times. And from 1972 to early 1970s crossing the bridge was free as well.

Despite its age, it's still the most frequently used bridge across the Xiang river, due to its location at city center.










btw, this dicussion should really be in China road infrastructure thread.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Changsha-Fuzhou G1692 via Shangrao-Fuzhou high speed railway takes 5:01 for 923 km, with 11 stops (goes on to Xiamen). Ticket price second class 404 yuan 5 jiao, first class 681 yuan, business class 1277 yuan.
There is also D2602 via Nanchang-Putian high speed railway, which takes 6:05 for 889 km, with 9 stops. Ticket price second class 266 yuan, first class 361 yuan 5 jiao.

For that line, oddly, no slow trains exist.

What could be the cost and trip time of a bus?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

k.k.jetcar said:


> The main reason the E1/E4 were/are being withdrawn (other than reaching end-of-service life) is their design purpose no longer exists- which was to transport long-distance commuters from far outer suburbs and housing developments to the center city. With real estate being more affordable in central Tokyo, people are moving back into the city rather than settling for a tract home in some boondock town in one of the rural Kanto prefectures.


Are there any outer suburbs in China?


----------



## Sopomon

^^
I don't think China is going through the same kind of asset bubble that Japan did when the E1/4s were getting built, it's not so impossible to live near the city centre (in the current climate at least).


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Sopomon said:


> ^^
> I don't think China is going through the same kind of asset bubble that Japan did when the E1/4s were getting built, it's not so impossible to live near the city centre (in the current climate at least).


Which city centre, though?
Is it easy to put children to school in Shanghai with e. g. a Wuxi hukou?


----------



## Sopomon

The hukou system is unrelated to that, it affects city development patterns in different ways.


----------



## Wbnemo1

any models of the 380-D out there? 3d or physical?


----------



## foxmulder

urbanfan89 said:


> It's such a shame that the railway specifications don't allow for double decker high speed rail, which exists in France and Japan. It would have doubled capacity at almost no cost.:bash:


There are some negatives of double deckers. They do *not *double the capacity because of stair space you need and more importantly they need to be shorter for the same axle load, so maybe 50%... They have higher center of gravity and their cross section is bigger, too, so, have somewhat larger friction. All translates into negatives for high speed. I think having longer trains is just the better solution and China went with 16 car trains for big part of its high speed train sets.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Sopomon said:


> The hukou system is unrelated to that, it affects city development patterns in different ways.


Different way, yes, but does that diffent way create demand for commuting?


----------



## Pansori

foxmulder said:


> There are some negatives of double deckers. They do *not *double the capacity because of stair space you need and more importantly they need to be shorter for the same axle load, so maybe 50%... They have higher center of gravity and their cross section is bigger, too, so, have somewhat larger friction. All translates into negatives for high speed. I think having longer trains is just the better solution and China went with 16 car trains for big part of its high speed train sets.


I would assume all new and most older (perhaps modernized) stations can accommodate 16 car trains. Maximum capacity (assuming train intervals of no more than 3-4 minutes) has also not been (and is not anywhere near) reached on any line.

It may be a problem for France or Japan to retrofit station platforms to accommodate longer trains which is why solutions like double-decker trains may be viable in some cases there. China doesn't have any such problems it seems.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> I would assume all new and most older (perhaps modernized) stations can accommodate 16 car trains. Maximum capacity (assuming train intervals of no more than 3-4 minutes) has also not been (and is not anywhere near) reached on any line.


Chengdu-Dujianyan high speed railway normally uses 8 car trains.
Are all stations of Chengdu-Dujiangyan high speed railway built to accommodate 16 car trains?


----------



## flankerjun

I love the model


----------



## voyager221

chornedsnorkack said:


> Chengdu-Dujianyan high speed railway normally uses 8 car trains.
> Are all stations of Chengdu-Dujiangyan high speed railway built to accommodate 16 car trains?


They all have standard 450-metre long platforms like all the other CRH stations, even Chengdu-Dujiangyan line is mostly regarded as a standalone fast metro.


----------



## voyager221

Beijing-Shanghai HSR near Tianjin, CRH380Ds being used for long distance services.
By 刘俊俊良良

G35 Beijing South - Hangzhou East









G34 Hangzhou East - Beijing South









G58 Ningbo - Beijing South


----------



## foxmulder

Thanks!:cheers:


----------



## kolnidur

Hi all,

I've read many of your informative posts -- thank you for sharing your expertise! I have some basic questions I am still struggling to see if we have any consensus/new understanding about China's technologies. 

Let's take the CRH380A, which is specifically an example model that I want to understand how China made the breakthrough. I have heard theories that the bogie is the core innovation, but is this something that Siemens or others couldn't easily replicate? What is the most difficult bottleneck or 'secret sauce' that you think made the CRH380A faster than others? 

I understand there are many moving parts (no pun intended) -- but which areas have China made true innovations in and how impressive are those breakthroughs from technological perspective?

Thanks for any help!


----------



## abcpdo

kolnidur said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've read many of your informative posts -- thank you for sharing your expertise! I have some basic questions I am still struggling to see if we have any consensus/new understanding about China's technologies.
> 
> Let's take the CRH380A, which is specifically an example model that I want to understand how China made the breakthrough. I have heard theories that the bogie is the core innovation, but is this something that Siemens or others couldn't easily replicate? What is the most difficult bottleneck or 'secret sauce' that you think made the CRH380A faster than others?
> 
> I understand there are many moving parts (no pun intended) -- but which areas have China made true innovations in and how impressive are those breakthroughs from technological perspective?
> 
> Thanks for any help!


imo, I don't believe the 380A is any more technologically superior than say, the Shinkansen E5. The E5 can probably safely run 380kph with no issues. Economic viability and Japanese-level safety margins is what keeps the speed down. At 380kph, the 380A would've used far more electrical power, since aerodynamic resistance increases quadratically. Which is why the government was so eager to do the slowdown after wenzhou... saves $$$. In addition, the Chinese tracks are less curvy, which certainly helps speed. 

The 380A, wasn't it based off Shinkansen E2 technologies? Chinese engineers took that train and beefed it up...

As for these new fancy CRH prototype trains, who knows?


----------



## flankerjun

E2 can not run over 300km/h,CRH380A get some technology and ideas from ICE3.


----------



## flankerjun

The most important parts for HSR is electric elements,this is the reason why Siemens is a leader in HST.but after 10 years experience,we find that bombardier is the No.1,their ideas are really advanced,for example,the bogie,bombardier's bogie is really simple,that means less parts and less faults.the train is more stable than any other trains.and The drivers give higher evaluation for Bombardier cockpit(CRH2 is the worst).the new CRH train gets many ideas from Bombardier.JP is good at Interior design,their train is more comfortable than others.Siemens' electric elements is good.
and we all rely on KNORR and Faville.


----------



## foxmulder

abcpdo said:


> ..Economic viability and Japanese-level safety margins is what keeps the speed down...


If Japan had current Chinese high speed rail network, they would have been running the trains at 380km/h as we speak.


----------



## foxmulder

kolnidur said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've read many of your informative posts -- thank you for sharing your expertise! I have some basic questions I am still struggling to see if we have any consensus/new understanding about China's technologies.
> 
> Let's take the CRH380A, which is specifically an example model that I want to understand how China made the breakthrough. I have heard theories that the bogie is the core innovation, but is this something that Siemens or others couldn't easily replicate? What is the most difficult bottleneck or 'secret sauce' that you think made the CRH380A faster than others?
> 
> I understand there are many moving parts (no pun intended) -- but which areas have China made true innovations in and how impressive are those breakthroughs from technological perspective?
> 
> Thanks for any help!


Is is not that easy to find public documents about this. However, if you go CSR, the company which produces CRH380A, official webpage they say:

"In 2010, CRH380A high-speed EMU passed the patent retrieval by Davis Wright Tremaine LLP and the United States Patent and Trademark Office. More than *900 high-speed train-related patents* were retrieved and none of them involved in patent infringement, so that CRH380A high-speed EMU is deemed to be China’s proprietary intellectual property right."

What that 900 patent include... one may want to check the google scholar for specific patents, if you can understand them...

Broadly speaking they say;

"The complete locomotive design reflects 10 technology innovation highlights: mechanics-flow thread type, excellent body vibration mode, high-gas-tight strength and air tightness body, large load and high security truck, advanced noise vibration technology, strong power green traction system, active control and low flow disturbance dual-pantograph technology, high safety low wear composite brake, humane, diversified and personalized services, and intelligent control, diagnosis and monitoring. "

Also, frankly I find wiki page informative for 380A. 




> Technical features[edit]
> According to CSR, the overall design of CRH380A reflects ten major goals.[2][8][9]
> 
> Low-resistance, streamlined head. The nose of the train has a resistance coefficient of less than 0.13, aerodynamic resistance was reduced by 6.1%, aerodynamic noise by 7%, aerodynamic lift by 51.7% and the lateral force acting on the head by 6.1%.
> 
> Vibration mode system matching. The CRH380A uses a lightweight aluminum alloy body whose total weight is no more than 9 t (8.9 long tons; 9.9 short tons), less than 17% of the entire vehicle; CSR has comprehensively improved the body structure, adopting a large number of new vibration damping materials. It also designed the bogie to match the performance of the body and optimized the train body's natural frequencies, which helps reduce structural vibrations at high speeds and improves ride comfort.
> 
> Highly pressurized tight body. The pressure change rate inside the train is less than 200 Pa (0.029 psi)/s, with the maximum pressure change inside the train remaining below 800 Pa (0.12 psi) compared with the standard value of 1,000 Pa (0.15 psi). This ensures good ride quality at high speed.
> 
> Safe and reliable high-speed bogies. The train is equipped with SWMB-400/SWTB-400 bolster-less bogies. These are a redesign of the SWMB-350/SWTB-350 bogies used by CRH2C; their critical instability speed is 550 km/h (342 mph). The new train's derail coefficient is 0.34 at a speed of 386 km/h (240 mph) while the maximum derail coefficient of the CRH2A is 0.73.[10]
> 
> Advanced noise control technology. By reducing sources of noise and adopting new sound absorbing and insulating materials, CSR has been able to control noise inside the train. The noise level is at 67dB - 69dB when running at 350 km/h (217 mph), which is similar to the CRH2A running at 250 km/h (155 mph).[10]
> 
> High-performance traction system, with YQ-365 motors manufactured by CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co., Ltd and CI11 Traction converters by Zhuzhou times electric co.,Ltd. The CRH380A has a new power unit configuration to maximize traction power. This allows the train to accelerate to 380 km/h (236 mph) in 7 minutes.
> 
> Regenerative braking with a maximum energy feedback rate of 95%. With each stop nearly 800 kWh of electric power can be fed back to the electric grid.


----------



## voyager221

kolnidur said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've read many of your informative posts -- thank you for sharing your expertise! I have some basic questions I am still struggling to see if we have any consensus/new understanding about China's technologies.
> 
> Let's take the CRH380A, which is specifically an example model that I want to understand how China made the breakthrough. I have heard theories that the bogie is the core innovation, but is this something that Siemens or others couldn't easily replicate? What is the most difficult bottleneck or 'secret sauce' that you think made the CRH380A faster than others?
> 
> I understand there are many moving parts (no pun intended) -- but which areas have China made true innovations in and how impressive are those breakthroughs from technological perspective?
> 
> Thanks for any help!


The Wiki page of CRH380A has summarised it quite well.

I have read something like even Minitry of Railways(now China Railway Corporation) own the full patents of CRH380A, 10% of the parts still need to be imported. 
Don't really have the details what parts still need to be imported, as far as I know the development of indigenous gearbox for CRH380A has only been completed by CSR Qishuyan recently.

China has started the development of high speed railway rolling stock way before importing the technologies from Japan, Germany and France. Acturally a few prototypes have achieved over 300kph top speed, but the integration of own design and some foreign parts turned out to be unreliable.
After technology transfers from above countries, China had two proven platfroms to work with, CRH2A(based on E2-1000) and CRH3C(based on Velaro E). Then technology breakthroughs in different departments were achieved one by one and tested on these platforms. That's how CRH2C stage I and CRH2C stage II came out as prototype models before fully developed version, ie. CRH380A.

The officals from MOR may have claimed all the technologies were developed indigenously and China has become one of the leading countries in HSR technology for propaganda and marketing purposes, while we can pour scorn on that all day long, at the meantime the claim is getting closer to be justified each day.

As for technology breakthroughs, apart from integrating R&D departments, universities and manufactures into a team working together and throwing in endless funds, acquisiton can also play a important part in technology breakthroughs.
Here's one example of how to become one of the leading manufactures via acquisition.

http://www.drivesncontrols.com/news/fullstory.php/aid/4502/$240m_Chinese_IGBT_plant_uses_UK_technology.html



> A Chinese semiconductor manufacturer, Zhuzhou CSR Times Electric Co, has inaugurated a $240m IGBT (insulated gate bipolar transistor) production plant – said to be the first of its kind in China, and the second worldwide – incorporating technology developed by its UK subsidiary, Dynex Semiconductor.
> 
> The new plant, located in Zhuzhou, will make high-power IGBT chips and modules using eight-inch silicon wafers. In the first phase of operation, output is expected to reach 120,000 wafers and 1 million IGBT modules per year.
> 
> The new IGBT line is being operated by CSR’s newly formed semiconductor business. Dynex is its European subsidiary.


----------



## Oasis-Bangkok

Shanghai Maglev by memos to the future, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

^ That is not a CRH train.


----------



## abcpdo

hkskyline said:


> ^ That is not a CRH train.


Nice catch. Technically it's a high speed magnetically levitated monorail.


----------



## Silly_Walks

hkskyline said:


> ^ That is not a CRH train.


It might not be CRH-branded, but it's most definitely High Speed Rail. Not steel wheel, not dual rail. But High Speed Rail nonetheless.

The topic of this thread is not CRH. It is High Speed Rail in China. The Shanghai Maglev falls in that category, whether you like it or not :lol:


----------



## Cosmicbliss

That's the maglev which is apparently only going to the airport and nowhere else.


----------



## _Night City Dream_

Taken from CCTV Facebook page in Russian



> Witness of a miracle!
> A foreigner has taken a HSR train from Beijing to Shanghai and decided to carry out an experiment. He took a coin and put it on the sill in the upward position. At a speed of 300 km/h the coin was standing for 8 minutes. Neither did i fall when tre train started slowinf down while approaching Changzhou North station. It only fell when the train swapped to another track.


Translation is mine.

I don't know how to put the movie here, so I just give you a link:

https://www.facebook.com/cctvrussian/videos/860982150638786

I really think Chinese HSR is now the best in the world.


----------



## xjtyou

_Night City Dream_ said:


> Taken from CCTV Facebook page in Russian
> 
> 
> 
> Translation is mine.
> 
> I don't know how to put the movie here, so I just give you a link:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/cctvrussian/videos/860982150638786
> 
> I really think Chinese HSR is now the best in the world.


Ah,the original one is here on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUtS8M90Fto


----------



## hkskyline

Silly_Walks said:


> It might not be CRH-branded, but it's most definitely High Speed Rail. Not steel wheel, not dual rail. But High Speed Rail nonetheless.
> 
> The topic of this thread is not CRH. It is High Speed Rail in China. The Shanghai Maglev falls in that category, whether you like it or not :lol:


Intra-city maglev goes in this thread.


----------



## Silly_Walks

^^


That's not for High Speed maglev, just for rapid transit maglev.

The Shanghai maglev is just as at home here as it is there.


----------



## Pansori

The thread is titled 'High speed Rail in China'. Is Shanghai Maglev 'high-speed rail'? The answer is 'yes'. Therefore it does belong in this thread.


----------



## hkskyline

Silly_Walks said:


> ^^
> 
> 
> That's not for High Speed maglev, just for rapid transit maglev.
> 
> The Shanghai maglev is just as at home here as it is there.





Pansori said:


> The thread is titled 'High speed Rail in China'. Is Shanghai Maglev 'high-speed rail'? The answer is 'yes'. Therefore it does belong in this thread.




Urban maglev projects are also operating at much higher speeds than typical urban rail, but belong to the _ Subways and Urban Transport_ section for obvious reasons.

If the Shanghai maglev were to extend to Hangzhou, connecting 2 different cities, rather than 2 stops within the same district, then it belongs in here.

If both of you had read the front page to the Infrastructure and Mobility section, you will immediately realize that the Railways section has this sub-header : _(Inter)national commuter and freight trains_. This means a much broader network of high-speed rail that has much wider implications than urban / intra-city transport.

You will also see the Subways and Urban Transport section includes _local transport systems_.

Think the distinction is very obvious and clear.


----------



## Silly_Walks

hkskyline said:


> Urban maglev projects are also operating at much higher speeds than typical urban rail, but belong to the _ Subways and Urban Transport_ section for obvious reasons.


Oh? The ones I've seen go about 80-120 km/h. Not at all High Speed.


The name of the thread is "CHINA | High Speed Rail". Shanghai Maglev fits the thread title.

It was meant to be a longer distance line to Hangzhou. It is an unfinished longer distance line. It is NOT rapid transit at ALL.

Think the distinction is very obvious and clear.


----------



## hkskyline

Silly_Walks said:


> Oh? The ones I've seen go about 80-120 km/h. Not at all High Speed.
> 
> 
> The name of the thread is "CHINA | High Speed Rail". Shanghai Maglev fits the thread title.
> 
> It was meant to be a longer distance line to Hangzhou. It is an unfinished longer distance line. It is NOT rapid transit at ALL.
> 
> Think the distinction is very obvious and clear.


This is a thread about high-speed rail in China under the _Railways_ section with sub-header that it is intended for _(Inter)national commuter and freight trains_.

Shanghai maglev *was not* designed to be an intercity, national, international, or even commuter line to fit the sub-header description. It was a demonstration line built by Transrapid. Their intention was to sell maglev technology for the Beijing-Shanghai line but *not* by extending the Pudong airport link.

This intra-city line belongs to the _Subways and Urban Transport_ section. You yourself had raised some posts on this maglev in the Subways and Urban Transport section already. Not sure why you are being inconsistent with your posts now when you recently had believed maglev discussions belonged there and not here. Let's not create duplication and redundant posts. One project cannot belong to 2 separate and distinct sections.


----------



## hkskyline

By *chwgch* from dcfever :


----------



## Silly_Walks

hkskyline said:


> Their intention was to sell maglev technology for the Beijing-Shanghai line but *not* by extending the Pudong airport link.


What TransRapid's reason was for building the line doesn't really matter much in this 'discussion'.

What does matter is that the line *was* supposed to be extended to Hongqiao (the platforms are/were already there to receive the new Maglev lines) and Hangzhou. It just turned out to be too expensive, and the regular HSR turned out to be good enough for Shanghai-Hangzhou.



> This intra-city line belongs to the _Subways and Urban Transport_ section. You yourself had raised some posts on this maglev in the Subways and Urban Transport section already. Not sure why you are being inconsistent with your posts now when you recently had believed maglev discussions belonged there and not here. Let's not create duplication and redundant posts. One project cannot belong to 2 separate and distinct sections.


I was pretty consistent, because if you see my post a little bit to the top:
"The Shanghai maglev is just as at home here as it is there."


I know this blows your world view enough to keep you occupied for many posts now already, but the Shanghai Maglev is at home in both topics. 

Oasis-Bangkok posted a beautiful picture of a High Speed Train, and you are being nit-picky about it. There is such a thing as taking it too far. Now if it was a picture of a tram, I would have corrected him myself, but in this specific case I suggest you go do something other than making a mountain out of a molehill.

Cheers!


----------



## hkskyline

Silly_Walks said:


> What TransRapid's reason was for building the line doesn't really matter much in this 'discussion'.
> 
> What does matter is that the line *was* supposed to be extended to Hongqiao (the platforms are/were already there to receive the new Maglev lines) and Hangzhou. It just turned out to be too expensive, and the regular HSR turned out to be good enough for Shanghai-Hangzhou.


By now, we all know now it is not going to be extended, and hence is a local transit line, which belongs to the _Subways and Urban Transport_ section for local transport systems.



Silly_Walks said:


> I was pretty consistent, because if you see my post a little bit to the top:
> "The Shanghai maglev is just as at home here as it is there."


We should avoid duplicating content across different subsections of the _Infrastructure and Mobility Forums_. It does not belong here because it is not an _(Inter)national commuter and freight train_ as described as a sub-header to this section. *You have not addressed why a local transit line should be considered a national train system for discussion in this thread.*

If people have lovely pictures of the maglev system, put it in the right place and we can discuss it there.


----------



## voyager221

Less than three weeks before the inauguaration day of Harbin-Qiqihar PDL, doubled-up CRH5As spotted passing through wetland nature reserve just outside Daqing city - the oil capital of China

By 大谷DF11G


----------



## foxmulder

That is a fantastic picture. Seriously, maybe the best. Please, share hi-res version of it if you find it.

Great picture.


----------



## Pansori

What on earth is that factory?


----------



## Innsertnamehere

likely an oil refinery.


----------



## flankerjun

Pansori said:


> What on earth is that factory?


Daqing is an oil city,all those factories are oil refinery


----------



## FM 2258

voyager221 said:


> Less than three weeks before the inauguaration day of Harbin-Qiqihar PDL, doubled-up CRH5As spotted passing through wetland nature reserve just outside Daqing city - the oil capital of China
> 
> By 大谷DF11G


I love that bridge!!!! Minimal impact to the land, wildlife and people can cross the railroad freely.


----------



## BEE2

Great pic


----------



## BEE2

That must have consumed enomous amount of concrete to construct that bridge


----------



## Silly_Walks

Can somebody point to the location of the picture on Google Maps?


----------



## hkskyline

_The street under the flyover becomes a river, in Jinhua, East China's Zhejiang province on July 21, 2015. [Photo/CFP]










A man, surnamed Peng, carries his wife to wade across the flood under a flyover to catch a train in Jinhua, East China's Zhejiang province on July 21, 2015. [Photo/CFP]_










_Leaving his wife in a safe place, Peng then carries his child across the flood in Jinhua, East China's Zhejiang province on July 21, 2015. He said that it is the first time he has had to "swim to catch a train". [Photo/CFP]_


----------



## Silver Swordsman

Love how integrated that station is with the local infrastructure, but that drainage ditch obviously needs some work. That joke cracked by that swimmer... gotta appreciate Chinese humor.


----------



## voyager221

foxmulder said:


> That is a fantastic picture. Seriously, maybe the best. Please, share hi-res version of it if you find it.
> 
> Great picture.


Original photo
http://tuchong.com/429866/12642055/
Need to contact owner to get higher resolution version



Pansori said:


> What on earth is that factory?


A huge petrochemical plant



Silly_Walks said:


> Can somebody point to the location of the picture on Google Maps?


https://goo.gl/maps/9tX87


----------



## Silly_Walks

^^

Thanks, I can't seem to find the huge petrochemical plant on the map, though.


----------



## voyager221

Silly_Walks said:


> ^^
> 
> Thanks, I can't seem to find the huge petrochemical plant on the map, though.


the complex south of the wetland park, look like a normal village from above, need to picture the height of the buildings in the brain from the length of their shadows


----------



## Silly_Walks

Thanks, I see many of the towers in that 'village' indeed!


----------



## voyager221

Just a simple achievement for the others, but a milestone for the engineers to make it happen


----------



## hmmwv

hkskyline said:


> The street under the flyover becomes a river, in Jinhua, East China's Zhejiang province on July 21, 2015. [Photo/CFP]


Good think the artwork is above water, with a nice blue line indicating the water line. :bash::banana::cheers:


----------



## FM 2258

voyager221 said:


> Just a simple achievement for the others, but a milestone for the engineers to make it happen




Is CRH now going to add "gold" to the color of their trains? The first departure from blue seems to be the orange line on the CRH6F. I wonder why the reason for the color change on the CRH6F.


----------



## Pansori

FM 2258 said:


> Is CRH now going to add "gold" to the color of their trains? The first departure from blue seems to be the orange line on the CRH6F. I wonder why the reason for the color change on the CRH6F.


Ir CRH6F already in revenue service or still in a testing phase?


----------



## hmmwv

Pansori said:


> Ir CRH6F already in revenue service or still in a testing phase?


6F started trial revenue operation between Nanning and Beihai as D9671/2, D9673/6, and D9675/4 on July 11th.


----------



## voyager221

Construction progress of Nanjing(南京)-Anqing(安庆) PDL near Yijiang(弋江) station
The PDL is scheduled to start test run in August and open by the end of this year
By 小黑想做摄影师

Nanjing-Anqing PDL two main tracks and two platform tracks


















South throat of the station









Looking back at the the station









Further down south, four tracks, from left to right: Hefei-Hangzhou, Nanjing-Anqing, Anqing-Nanjing, Hangzhou-Hefei









Since Nanjing-Anqing PDL and planned Hefei-Hangzhou HSR run side by side from Wuhu(芜湖) statio to Yijiang station, even Hefei-Hangzhou HSR hasn't officially started the construction phase, the main construction of this section has nearly been finished to minimise the interruption.

The view of these two lines winding though Wuhu city towards Yijiang station









Goolgemap position of this section, Yijiang station just a couple kilometres down south
https://goo.gl/maps/TvtfD


----------



## voyager221

CRH5 on Lanzhou-Xinjiang PDL near Menyuan(门源) station with Lenglongling(冷龙岭, 5254m) in the background
By 旅行家灰灰


----------



## hmmwv

Some Guiyang-Guangzhou HSR pics.


----------



## Silver Swordsman

^^Those pictures make me want to whip out Simcity again.


----------



## voyager221

Fast foward to 15/07, working on the turnout at the throat of Dangtu(当涂) East station
Early moring at Dangtu East


No.18 turnout, permitted speed 80kph, the biggest turnout no.62 with permitted speed of 220kph was intalled on Harbin-Dalian HSR


Swing nose


Three motors moving the point rails


Five motors needed for the swing nose


Needless to say it's a huge job and an important job


----------



## voyager221

Some kind of measuring tool


Apparently this is the method used on HSR, very different from the method used on conventional railways




Electric fastening tool


Took three days to finish one turnout


----------



## voyager221

19/07, working on the turnouts at Ma'anshan(马鞍山) East station with three other teams


A lot going on


Schedule's tight, different teams need to accommodate each other


Not for faint-hearted


Tamping machine joining in


----------



## voyager221

Some close look pictures of the tamping machine


----------



## voyager221

Ma'anshan East




Joint task force




Ballasted platform tracks


----------



## voyager221

Fast forward to 28/07, still working on the turnouts at Ma'anshan East


Installing noise barriers


Next morning


Two more to do


Mid day, rail temperature


----------



## voyager221

01/08, track doube-check, rail temperature first


History record, date, time, position, rail temperature before work and after work, name of the person in charge


Track geometry trolley


Track information, ZH k30+515.550: starting postion of the transition curve, R 5000: curve radius in metres, L 2489.399: curve length in metres, H 110: cant in millimeters, need help with the meaning of I 450 and F 10.0


----------



## voyager221

09/08 typhoon landed in Fujian province bring heavy rain to east of china, work continues




Inside the headquarter, a big board showing the working progress


----------



## voyager221

12/08 beautiful day after typhoon, all the adjustment work to be done before 15/08




To be continued


----------



## foxmulder

EPIC update, thanks a ton! 



:cheers:


----------



## binhminh01

Great . so so so Awesome


----------



## hmmwv

Kudos to people who do the hard work so we can travel safely and comfortably.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

voyager221 said:


> No.18 turnout, permitted speed 80kph, the biggest turnout no.62 with permitted speed of 220kph was intalled on Harbin-Dalian HSR


Is that the speed applicable to diverging track?


----------



## voyager221

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is that the speed applicable to diverging track?


Yes. I suppose the straight track has the same designed speed as main line or sometime higher for future speed upgrade.
It seems all the turnouts used on this line have 250kph permitted speed on straight tracks. 
On the other hand, the turnouts installed on Shenyang-Dandong PDL and Harbin-Qiqihar HSR(just changed name from PDL to HSR) have 350kph permitted speed on straight tracks.


----------



## FM 2258

I'm amazed at the skill of these workers to build the network so fast without mistakes. Who ever is the project manager(s) for this is doing a great job coordinating everything. :cheers:


----------



## gramercy

what is this "cushion" between the two layers of concrete?


----------



## flankerjun

gramercy said:


> what is this "cushion" between the two layers of concrete?


a bag filled with asphalt and other material,it is a buffer unit.


----------



## gramercy

so do the block move or they stay and its just shock absorption?


----------



## ccdk

*Jilin - Hunchun HSR commences trial operation*
http://news.xwh.cn/2015/0813/340676.shtml#g340616=1

connecting the existing Changchun - Jilin HSR line. Travel time between Changchun, the capital city of Jilin province, and the border city of Hunchun is around 2.5 hours. Top speed is 250km/h. total length 360km with 9 stations.


----------



## flankerjun

gramercy said:


> so do the block move or they stay and its just shock absorption?


the block move just very Very slightly,you can understand they stay.and the bag absorb vibration.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Exactly when is the opening for scheduled passenger service of Shenyang-Dandong and Jilin-Hunchun high speed railways respectively?
How is the progress of Dalian-Dandong high speed railway?


----------



## gramercy

So I ask again, are there any European-like services, where the train runs on HSL for a time and then goes back to the old line to serve small cities?

Also, is there an up-to-date high-resolution map somewhere?


----------



## flankerjun

gramercy said:


> So I ask again, are there any European-like services, where the train runs on HSL for a time and then goes back to the old line to serve small cities?
> 
> Also, is there an up-to-date high-resolution map somewhere?


trains runing on a 200-250KM/H line then going back to 300-350km/H line is quite common in China,some 200-250KM/H lines are old line,so this is what you said?

there are two maps
this one is update to June,but it is quite amazing.
http://pan.baidu.com/s/1jGnBnBS
and this one has all the details,updates to September(though it is August now )
http://pan.baidu.com/s/1c0pssxE


----------



## FM 2258

gramercy said:


> what is this "cushion" between the two layers of concrete?
> http://s2.postimg.org/685t0r9a1/20471914846_5256ceef9f_b.jpg


Interesting....I have never noticed that before.


----------



## voyager221

FM 2258 said:


> Interesting....I have never noticed that before.


It's a derivative of Shinkansen slab track system, one of the slab track systems widely used in China.
Other systems include ZÜBLIN(latest version), Rheda 2000, Bögl and China own developed CTRS III.

Here a picture of Shinkansen slab track popped up when googling, it's the version with cut out in the middle to reduce cost.
DSC04058 JR Shinkansen floating slab resilient track mounting 3k by Recliner, on Flickr

Acturally, the youtube video you posted two pages back, doesn't the slab track look just like that?


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ernmost-high-speed-rail-line.html?channel=523
> 
> *China opens northernmost high-speed line*
> Monday, August 17, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _CHINA launched passenger services on its most northerly high-speed line on August 17 with the start of commercial operations on the Harbin - Qiqihar line in Heilongjiang province_
> 
> The completion of the 281km line has reduced the journey time between the two cities to 1h 25min
> 
> ...


----------



## foxmulder

*China to accelerate railway investment in H2*

English.news.cn 2015-08-17 10:54:27	

China has hastened efforts to build high speed rails as annual investment targets are still far from complete.

On Monday, China's northernmost high-speed railway started operation in Heilongjiang Province. The trip from Harbin City, the provincial capital, to Qiqihar City was reduced from three hours to 85 minutes.

Last week, a railway linking Jinan City and Qingdao City in east China's Shandong Province broke ground. Local governments will raise 80 percent of the 60 billion yuan (9.4 billion U.S. dollars) investment, while all previous projects were primarily funded by the China Railway Corporation.

China has invested more than 265.1 billion yuan in domestic railway construction in the first half of 2015, up 12.7 percent. An additional 2,226 km of new rail lines were put into service.

At the start of the year, China set targets to invest more than 800 billion yuan in railway construction this year, creating 8,000 km of new track.

This means the country must spend more than 500 billion yuan on railways and service 5,000 km of new lines by the end of the year.

"The government is pushing ahead with railway development with great efforts. The construction will boom in the latter half of the year," said Wang Mengshu, a railway expert with the Chinese Academy of Engineering.


----------



## voyager221

Pictures of Harbin-Qiqihaer HSR from various sources


----------



## voyager221

Harbin-Qiqihar HSR promotional video


----------



## conc.man

A good view of YiWan line.


----------



## shashpant

What kind of signaling China HSR uses? Since it has a mix of railway from different manufacture like Alstom, Simens, Bombardier and so on.

Also whats the average speed of those Pendolinos? Top is 243kmph?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

From
http://www.chinahighlights.com/china-trains/search-result.asp
I get 17 daily D trains Harbin-Qiqihar.
Is that number correct?


----------



## voyager221

shashpant said:


> What kind of signaling China HSR uses? Since it has a mix of railway from different manufacture like Alstom, Simens, Bombardier and so on.
> 
> Also whats the average speed of those Pendolinos? Top is 243kmph?


CTCS 2/3, slightly tweaked versions of ETCS 1/2

Average speed varies from 197kph to 153kph with one stop to five stops, top speed is 250kph though probably rarely reached during the journey at this stage due to excessive slack time in the timetable.



chornedsnorkack said:


> From
> http://www.chinahighlights.com/china-trains/search-result.asp
> I get 17 daily D trains Harbin-Qiqihar.
> Is that number correct?


News was saying 20 trains each way from opening, I could only find 17 trains each way as well.


----------



## Vertigo

Is there any place where you can find which type of rolling stock is used on which routes? I will make some trips with CRH next month and am curious what which types of trains I can expect. I will be doing Urumqi - Turpan, Chongqing - Wuhan and Hankou - Beijing by high speed train. :cheers:


----------



## cmoonflyer

Nice thread,keep up the good work !


----------



## Pansori

Vertigo said:


> Is there any place where you can find which type of rolling stock is used on which routes? I will make some trips with CRH next month and am curious what which types of trains I can expect. I will be doing Urumqi - Turpan, Chongqing - Wuhan and Hankou - Beijing by high speed train. :cheers:


Can you please report us back after your. With photos, if you can. It's really interesting to hear people's experiences on CRH.

I myself will do Shenzhen-Guangzhou-Nanning in October.


----------



## flankerjun

Vertigo said:


> Is there any place where you can find which type of rolling stock is used on which routes? I will make some trips with CRH next month and am curious what which types of trains I can expect. I will be doing Urumqi - Turpan, Chongqing - Wuhan and Hankou - Beijing by high speed train. :cheers:


CRH5 CRH2 AND CRH380AL,for Urumqi - Turpan, Chongqing - Wuhan line,train will only run 160-200km/h,and Hankou - Beijing you will take a 300+km/h train


----------



## BEE2

Pansori said:


> Can you please report us back after your. With photos, if you can. It's really interesting to hear people's experiences on CRH.
> 
> I myself will do Shenzhen-Guangzhou-Nanning in October.



Please post your photos of another HSR trip after your trip, too.:nuts::nuts:
By the way, are you working in a field related to transportation or engineering?
Otherwise I cannot imagine why you are so enthusiastic about HSR travelling. So far, I have not had any experience in riding high speed train, which is a pity. But I think myself prefer to travel by driving a car around
since I will have more freedom and flexibility along the trip. Just my personal
peference. :grass:


----------



## voyager221

Lanzhou-Xinjiang(Urumuqi) PDL by 铁路小亨


----------



## BEE2

What a fabulous view as riding on high speed trains!


----------



## flankerjun

*Shenyang-Dandong HSL,top speed 250KM/h.Open on 3 Sep.*

* the same position *


----------



## Menshommes

skytrax said:


> I think China has one of the most developed railway system.


yes, it is cheaper and more environment friendly than building lots of airports and creating low cost domestic airline carriers.


----------



## Menshommes

skytrax said:


> I think China has one of the most developed railway system.


i forgot to say. one thing that worry me after looking at europe is the vulnerability to terrorism


----------



## Peloso

Menshommes said:


> i forgot to say. one thing that worry me after looking at europe is the vulnerability to terrorism


Terrorism in China usually just brings the Chinese to unite even more and hate even more the international supporters of it, so if it will be used, it will be very sparingly.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Menshommes said:


> i forgot to say. one thing that worry me after looking at europe is the vulnerability to terrorism


Why look all the way over at Europe? Why not look at Kunming?

Not to mention Xinjiang...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China


----------



## FM 2258

Menshommes said:


> i forgot to say. one thing that worry me after looking at europe is the vulnerability to terrorism


Everything is vulnerable. Personally I feel that all "terrorist" attacks are government created to strike fear in citizens and encourage people to give over freedom for security. 

I love that the CRH system is completely grade separated from roads and from what I've seen all fenced in. No hitting wild animals at 300km/h. That's security to me.


----------



## Yellow Fever

^^ thanks for clarify that!


----------



## flankerjun

*More pictures,Shenyang-Dandong line
*


----------



## Peloso

FM 2258 said:


> Everything is vulnerable. Personally I feel that all "terrorist" attacks are government created to strike fear in citizens and encourage people to give over freedom for security.


Well, that is exactly what happened in the US after 9/11 with the Patriot act and the attacks that soon followed in Europe etc. etc. but in China things are a bit different. There is the Xinjiang national question and terrorism, as any Chinese well knows, is funded from abroad.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> *More pictures,Shenyang-Dandong line
> *


How far is the terminus from Yalu river?


----------



## flankerjun

chornedsnorkack said:


> How far is the terminus from Yalu river?


only 1km,5 mins' walk.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Does Shenyang now have a new CRH station, different from "Shenyang" and "Shemyang North"?


----------



## flankerjun

*this map shows the position of Dandong City,Dandong Railway Station and North Korea*


----------



## flankerjun

chornedsnorkack said:


> Does Shenyang now have a new CRH station, different from "Shenyang" and "Shemyang North"?


Another super large station,Shenyang South or Shenyang Nan,12 platforms and 22 lines.but it just open a half to the public,


----------



## flankerjun




----------



## chornedsnorkack

The distance Shenyang-Shenyang South is quoted as 15 km.
Fastest train Shenyang-Dandong is D7623 and takes 1:10 for 223 km nonstop. Second class ticket price 70 yuan.
Fastest train Shenyang North-Dandong is D7609 and takes 1:14 for 228 km nonstop. Second class ticket price 70 yuan.
Several trains Shenyang South-Dandong take 1:15 for 208 km with 2 stops. Second class ticket price 64 yuan.


----------



## FM 2258

These new Chinese railway stations are absolutely incredible. China really thought large when it came to this new railway system.


----------



## Cosmicbliss

FM 2258 said:


> These new Chinese railway stations are absolutely incredible. China really thought large when it came to this new railway system.


My worry is maintenance. hno: In India we often see good infra being built up but it is simply not maintained at all. Hope they maintain it well.


----------



## india

^^

Lay your worries to rest because China isn't India. Catch my drift?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

india said:


> ^^
> 
> Lay your worries to rest because China isn't India. Catch my drift?


The eldest high speed railway of China is Qinhuangdao-Shenyang. Opened in 2003, ran at 250 km/h from Sixth Speedup Campaign in 2007 till Second Slowdown Campaign in 2011.

So a total 12 years of service, 4 of which were operated at 250 km/h.
Does Qinhuangdao-Shenyang high speed railway show any signs of wear or of deferred maintenance?

Incidentally, it can be seen on the way to Dandong. There are 3 G trains daily Tianjin-Dandong, of which G395 and G397 originate in Beijing and G1229 in Shanghai. Trip time Tianjin-Dandong is 5:17...5:41, departures 10:04...14:49, arrivals 15:45...20:08.


----------



## Grunnen

From what I have seen, the railway infrastructure in China seems to be well-maintained. Not just the high speed corridors, but also non-electified single track lines such as Guilin - Changsha.


----------



## FM 2258

I was under the impression that China had and still has a very well maintained railway infrastructure before CRH. Also aren't ballastless tracks like on the high speed railway bridges much easier to maintain? I know very little about maintenance of railway track.


----------



## hmmwv

I think no one really doubts China's ability to maintain technical infrastructure on the railways, however the station is one concern, often the stations are still perfectly functional but will show various cosmetic wear. Hongqiao for example is considerably dirtier than five years ago.


----------



## Cosmicbliss

india said:


> ^^
> 
> Lay your worries to rest because China isn't India. Catch my drift?


Well China may not be India but the population of the two countries is almost the same. With the kind of load stations have to deal with, it is tough to keep things clean. hno:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Cosmicbliss said:


> Well China may not be India but the population of the two countries is almost the same. With the kind of load stations have to deal with, it is tough to keep things clean. hno:


China has much fewer passengers.


----------



## foxmulder

chornedsnorkack said:


> China has much fewer passengers.


That is simply not true. This is a clear example of apples and oranges comparison. India's passenger numbers include commuter rail which colossal. It is like including metro passenger numbers for China.


----------



## Pansori

foxmulder said:


> That is simply not true. This is a clear example of apples and oranges comparison. India's passenger numbers include commuter rail which colossal. It is like including metro passenger numbers for China.


This merely shows that commuter rail in China is still underdeveloped. This means of transportation was not being developed until very recently (not sure why). This is starting to change and China's rail passenger numbers are likely to eclipse those of India at some point but there's nothing wrong in making such comparisons. For instance Shanghai and Beijing have very small/nonexistent commuter rail systems. Even small cities in Germany have overall larger commuter rail systems for comparison. 

As for maintenance I understand the concerns about maintenance of stations. There are reasons to be concerned given the track record of poor maintenance of large public buildings (not necessarily stations or infrastructure) even in first tier cities in China. Look no further that Zaha Hadid's Opera House in Guangzhou. Sometimes even fairly new buildings look like as if they are not cleaned, fixed or maintained properly and I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice this.


----------



## foxmulder

Pansori said:


> This merely shows that commuter rail in China is still underdeveloped. This means of transportation was not being developed until very recently (not sure why). This is starting to change and China's rail passenger numbers are likely to eclipse those of India at some point but there's nothing wrong in making such comparisons. For instance Shanghai and Beijing have very small/nonexistent commuter rail systems. Even small cities in Germany have overall larger commuter rail systems for comparison.


I somehow disagree because you need to consider the other modes of transport. Huge explosion of metro construction in Chinese cities is partially inhibiting commuter rail development. In other words, for example, Beijing metro is so big, some lines can be easily considered as commuter rail lines.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> India's passenger numbers include commuter rail which colossal. It is like including metro passenger numbers for China.


While several HSR stations of China do have metro service, they tend to be in suburbs and not be main interchanges of metro. Which still means that rail stations in India or Japan which are interchanges of both long distance and commuter rail have to deal with much bigger passenger numbers.


----------



## Pansori

foxmulder said:


> I somehow disagree because you need to consider the other modes of transport. Huge explosion of metro construction in Chinese cities is partially inhibiting commuter rail development. In other words, for example, Beijing metro is so big, some lines can be easily considered as commuter rail lines.


Metro systems in China are very much like metro systems everywhere else. They are extensive, convenient, typically travel at up to 80km/h (with exceptions) and generally do not carry attributes of commuter rail. No major city in China has a proper commuter rail system and no metro system substitutes it. There simply isn't any commuter rail system.

Commuter rail may duplicate metro lines in some cases but generally have less frequent stops, faster maximum and average speeds and reach out much further outside city core. 

Some perfect examples of metro and commuter rail can be found in Germany. 

The bottom line is that China's rail passenger numbers are deservedly low compared to India because China doesn't have commuter rail systems while India does (even if they're shabby, overcrowded and are generally not up to very high standards). Numbers are correct and there's nothing to question there.


----------



## Grunnen

^^ Do you know how the PRD Intercity lines will be classified? The only finished line, Guangzhou - Zhuhai, appears on the schematic high speed rail map, but the current construction in Shenzhen is called "Metro line 11" if I remember it correctly.

(That network will be the first large-scale commuter rail network in China, I think.)


----------



## 孟天宝

Pansori said:


> No major city in China has a proper commuter rail system and no metro system substitutes it. There simply isn't any commuter rail system.


 What about;

Shanghai: Jinshan Line
Wuhan: Wuxian, Wuhang and Wuxiao Lines as part of the Megapolis Area Lines
Zhengzhou: Zhengkai (as well a three or four more under construction)
Chengdu: Chengguan Line (to Dujiangyan and branch to Pengzhou)

And then there are intercity lines;

Jilin: Changchun to Jilin
Guangdong: Guangzhou to Zhuhai
Yangtze River: Shanghai to Nanjing, Shanghai to Hangzhou and Hangzhou to Nanjing
Jiangxi: Nanchang to Jiujiang

These are all greater than a metro system in terms of length and stopping frequencies, but less than part of the high-speed rail due to their short lengths. I've used the Chengguan numerous times for the explicit purpose *of* commuting between Chengdu and its suburbs; the transfer station at Xipu is insanely full during morning and evening rush hours with people using the Chengguan line. I know you use the quantifier "proper," what exactly do you define as a commuter line?


----------



## Pansori

孟天宝;127020581 said:


> I know you use the quantifier "proper," what exactly do you define as a commuter line?


Something like this? And I don't mean _line_. I mean _system_ which is sufficient to serve the city and its surroundings. In Shanghai's case this should be many times larger with even bigger gaps between stations.


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## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> Metro systems in China are very much like metro systems everywhere else. They are extensive, convenient, typically travel at up to 80km/h (with exceptions) and generally do not carry attributes of commuter rail. No major city in China has a proper commuter rail system and no metro system substitutes it. There simply isn't any commuter rail system.
> 
> Commuter rail may duplicate metro lines in some cases but generally have less frequent stops, faster maximum and average speeds and reach out much further outside city core.
> 
> Some perfect examples of metro and commuter rail can be found in Germany.


How about East Rail of Hong Kong? Is it not a "commuter rail"?


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## Grunnen

Actually, the necessity of extensive commuter rail networks can also be seen as a failure to create chances for people to live near their work (or to find work near their home).


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## chornedsnorkack

Grunnen said:


> Actually, the necessity of extensive commuter rail networks can also be seen as a failure to create chances for people to live near their work (or to find work near their home).


So can necessity of freeways.


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## dbhaskar

Having gone through the misery of commuting for 2 hours to work every day during morning rush hour last year, I'm not a big fan of commuter networks. It is certainly a failure to provide reasonable housing near work.

However, with rapid development of high-speed links in Pearl River Delta, Yangtze River Delta and Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei regions, I suppose these will become commuter networks in the future. With correct pricing structure in place, these high speed links could be spacious, comfortable and provide good wifi throughout the commute.


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## chornedsnorkack

dbhaskar said:


> It is certainly a failure to provide reasonable housing near work.
> 
> However, with rapid development of high-speed links in Pearl River Delta, Yangtze River Delta and Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei regions, I suppose these will become commuter networks in the future.


The problem is failure to use the existing infrastructure.


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## dbhaskar

chornedsnorkack said:


> The problem is failure to use the existing infrastructure.


It will come about. It takes time for people's attitude to change. A lot depends on real estate prices, quality of life in satellite cities, connectivity between high-speed stations and local metro networks, service quality (wifi, cellular network, ability to get work done while on commute) etc. I am optimistic that the infrastructure will see better use in the future.


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## Sunfuns

Those commuter networks, in Europe at least, are not used exclusively for people to go to work and back. Where I live they are also close to full on weekends and in evening. People use them to go to city for shopping and entertainment and to countryside for visiting friends, hiking etc. A lot higher population density in coastal China so one would expect even more patronage.


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## foxmulder

chornedsnorkack said:


> Building a dedicated subway that overlaps an existing rail line is not a good use of valuable resources either.
> Look at your own East Rail. Built back in 1910. NOT a "dedicated rail line" - it carries a lot of trains between Hung Hom and Lo Wu, but the tracks are shared with long distance trains to Guangzhou and Beijing.


???

Subways carries many more passengers hence they are different. If you have the passenger number then yes, you should build parallel ones.

China entered a new league when it comes to rail transport last decade. Traditional commuter rails operating in Europe are subways in China, they have the same reach. Larger commuter rails like, for example New York one, they are build as high speed rail in China as in High-speed intercity railways. So, comparing should be done accordingly. The below map shows these planned lines. I think it is a little bit out of date.


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## chornedsnorkack

孟天宝;127079331 said:


> I would dearly love an interconnected commuter/metro system. But the reality is that I'm not sure how many would actually use it. Most of my friends use the metro infrequently yet they live right beside it. Everyone wants to get their drivers licenses and test their mettle on the roads. Perhaps the mentality of utilizing public transport hasn't seeped in yet.


I suspect that the neglect of commuter rail is something that takes time to fix. Chengdu Metro was opened only in 2010. How many suburbs of Chengdu have been built in places which were not built up when metro opened? 


孟天宝;127079331 said:


> The vast majority see train travel as something that's done during Golden Week and at no other times. If you want to travel somewhere, the first thing that comes to mind is a bus or driving yourself.


Chengdu is at the crossing of 3 old railways:
Chengdu-Chongqing. Opened 1952. I see the list of stations beginning:

Chengdu
Bali
Longtansi
Shibantan
Honganxiang
Chenjiawan
Honghuatang
Wufengxi
Lingxianmao
Yangmahe
Shiqiaozhen
Jianyang
...
Chengdu-Baoji. Opened 1961. Station list beginning:

Chengdu
Tianhuizhen
Xindu
Qingbaijiang
Guanghan - 38 km
Xinxinchang
Deyang - 61 km
Huangxuzhen
Baimaguan
Luojiang - 85 km
...
Chengdu-Kunming. Completed 1970, but sections opened before. Station list begins:

Chengdu
Bali
Chengdu East
Chengdu South
Shuangliu
Gongxing
Hualongmen
Xinjin
Huilongan
Qinglongchang
Pengshan
Taihe
Meishan
Xiantan
Simeng
Wuchang
...
that far seems to have been opened by 1965.
So, how much are these three lines used? Are Bali Station or Tianhuizhen Station important destinations in Chengdu?


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## Sunfuns

What about the upper 25% in the coastal cities? Would they not travel a lot more even when they don't absolutely have to? 25% of Shanghai or Beijing is still a lot of people... Every year I see more and more Chinese tourists in Europe so there are plenty of people even for expensive hobbies like that.


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## hkskyline

Rents in general are quite low in China, so the advantage of living far to save is less. They won't get a big house anyway, but live in a larger apartment perhaps. The housing market in driven by speculators, so rents are not in-sync with actual mortgage rates as owners chase capital returns. They will even leave units empty so not to bother with the rental paperwork. 

Those that live in the outskirts are oftentimes the poor that once were allocated homes in the city centre, but have since been forced out for redevelopment. A subway line often comes with these new developments in the outskirts, so why would there be a need for a separate commuter line? In Europe, commuter lines don't necessarily overlap with subways. The two serve different purposes. I don't see how China has to follow that model. The population densities are high enough to build subways.

For the rich that are able to afford expensive hobbies and fly around the world, they can easily afford drivers and avoid the crushing crowds altogether, and live in the city centre and not have to worry about a long commute. These are the people buying up the redevelopments anyway.

This is why the high-speed network is primarily designed for intercity travel, targeted at the middle class who can afford an occasional trip.


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## oliver999

my god,shanghai-chengdu 350KM/H highspeed rail approved.


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## oliver999

my small county will have 3 highspeed rail (200KM/H) by 2020.to shanghai,nanjing,jiaxing,nantong


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## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> ???
> 
> Subways carries many more passengers hence they are different. If you have the passenger number then yes, you should build parallel ones.


Um. More than what?
Have a look at Yamanote line.
First section opened in 1885.
First section double-tracked, and electrified, in 1909.
Completed in 1925, as double track.
At present, the eastern side of Yamanote line is 8 tracks. 6 tracks of narrow gauge plus 2 tracks of broad gauge Shinkansen.
Yamanote line has 11 car trains. Runs 21 hours per day. 15 trains per hour off-peak, as much as 24 trains per hour peak times. And that does not count the frequencies of the other 4 narrow and 2 broad gauge tracks.


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## 孟天宝

chornedsnorkack said:


> I suspect that the neglect of commuter rail is something that takes time to fix. Chengdu Metro was opened only in 2010. How many suburbs of Chengdu have been built in places which were not built up when metro opened?


 Line 1, none.
Line 2, difficult to say. 

Parts of Xipu are being "redeveloped;" i.e. the old tenements are being bulldozed to make way for new concrete jungles. However the rents on the new places are far from "cheap." They would only be accessible to the burgeoning middle/upper-middle class. By definition they don't use metro for commuting as they have cars they want to show off. Those that might possibly use it are being pushed towards housing that is the most distant from the metro. Same goes with the other end of Line 2 in Longquanyi. There are about four stations in the middle of nowhere. I'm sure in a decade it will fill up with new skyscrapers but whether or not the homeowners will use Line 2 or the Chengmianle to commute is to be seen.



chornedsnorkack said:


> Chengdu is at the crossing of 3 old railways:
> 
> *list of train stations that no one visits*
> 
> So, how much are these three lines used? Are Bali Station or Tianhuizhen Station important destinations in Chengdu?


 Short answer; No

Long answer:

Bali is a marshalling yard for Chengdu "North/Main" station if I remember correctly, whilst Tianhuizhen is virtually non existant. There is a possibility they are used for freight these days but I am unsure. I remember going over a bridge in Tianhui that went over a train track but it was largely overgrown so not sure how much it was used. 

In your list for the 1952 Cheng-Yu line none of the stations except for Jianyang (简阳) are accessible via 12306.cn. If you want to go there, it'll cost ¥14.5 for a seat for the 80 to 90 minutes trip in one of four trains. The 1961 Cheng-Bao line has no stations show up, I suspect Deyang (德阳) or Miangyang (绵阳) are the first stops now. Heading south on the Cheng-Kun railway will see to either Pengshan (彭山) on the K9483 1h 16m away for ¥12.5 or Meishan (眉山) on four trains at ¥15.5 for either a 77m or 90m ride.

Many of the other cities *do* have stations (Xindu, Qingbaijiang, etc. on the Cheng-Bao Line or Xinjing, Shaungliu, etc. on the Cheng-Kun line) but they are at new stations recently built for the Cheng-Mian-Le "commuter rail." The vast majority of those are outside of town and tend to be poorly connected.

The closest thing to a commuter rail system is Wuhan's regional rail system that has 2 of 3 lines finished and Zhengzhou's "Central Plains" system that has only 1 line finished and a bunch more under construction. Ideally it would be nice if they functioned as a commuter line, but the reality will likely be far from it. Even Chengdu's ICR is not used often due to few trains and the need to buy tickets. My friend in Deyang doesn't use it because it's easier to catch the bus; when I asked her if she would commute she just laughed.


----------



## particlez

foxmulder said:


> You might missed my point. Beijing and Shanghai metros are two of the largest metro systems and their *reach *is about the same as the commuter rail map you showed for Munich, both around 60km diameter. So, these metro systems can indeed hinder need for a commuter rail system especially when you consider regional high speed rail systems start running in these cities. I mean, one can easily think Beijing-Tianjin HSR is commuter rail.
> 
> Also, again you may missed my point with Indian rail passenger numbers. I am not saying it is false. I am saying it includes ridership for people who are commuting daily, around 20km or so to the city centers because of a lack of *proper metro system*. Shanghai and Beijing metro is doing the same thing so should we include their passenger numbers to China National Rail?


Ideally every large urban agglomeration would have readily accessible, grade separated rapid transit. The nomenclature does not really matter. It could be subway, commuter rail, some made-up term. 

If people are going to argue about numbers, they should add the numbers for subway rides in addition to commuter rail rides. Or they could add up the total distance traveled by customers. 

Munich is a very good example of commuter rail done right. Electrified trains, ROWs, etc. If I remember correctly, they're also tunneling under the city to add speed/capacity. Unfortunately there's a LOT of bad commuter rail, especially in places large and wealthy enough to warrant better options. Diesel trains, shared tracks with cargo trains, often a subservient relationship to the cargo trains, at-grade crossings.


----------



## particlez

Pansori said:


> Metro systems in China are very much like metro systems everywhere else. They are extensive, convenient, typically travel at up to 80km/h (with exceptions) and generally do not carry attributes of commuter rail. No major city in China has a proper commuter rail system and no metro system substitutes it. There simply isn't any commuter rail system.
> 
> Commuter rail may duplicate metro lines in some cases but generally have less frequent stops, faster maximum and average speeds and reach out much further outside city core.
> 
> Some perfect examples of metro and commuter rail can be found in Germany.


Even the impressively large subway systems in China today are woefully inadequate in terms of coverage. There are still many large swaths of high density urban areas that are still NOT served by mass transit. These areas should get their own lines before express/reliever lines are built. The long term plans (assuming the cities do not undergo major population/footprint growth) have the mass transit systems maybe 3-4X their current size?

So we'll have to wait a decade or two. Hopefully the politicos won't implement infrastructure austerity policies.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> A subway line often comes with these new developments in the outskirts, so why would there be a need for a separate commuter line? In Europe, commuter lines don't necessarily overlap with subways. The two serve different purposes. I don't see how China has to follow that model. The population densities are high enough to build subways.


In Hong Kong, commuter lines don´t overlap with subways either, because the two serve the *same* purpose. Subways only go parallel to East Rail Line as far as Kowloon Tong Station, and parallel to West Rail Line as far Tsuen Wan West. The railway was already there, so were some of the stations (Sha Tin, University, Fanling, Sheung Shui, Lo Wu) - so rather than build a new dedicated subway parallel to East Rail and desert the stations of East Rail, (big waste of infrastructure and effort) you added second track and electrification to previously single track line, and extra stations (Kowloon Tong, Tai Wai, Fo Tan, Racecourse, Tai Po Market, Tai Wo) between the old ones.

Like most reasonable countries do. Like mainlanders should have done, and should still do.


----------



## particlez

hkskyline said:


> Because people don't live in Dongguan and work in Shenzhen, or live in Zhongshan and work in Guangzhou. Intercity commutes are rare in China. The difference in housing costs are more than offset by the train tickets.
> 
> Shenzhen to Guangzhou on the CRH costs about 80 RMB. When an average urban worker makes only 4000 RMB a month, clearly such long-distance commutes are unaffordable even if the cost halves with a slower train.


Short response: You just ignored the basics of transit planning.

Detailed response: In order to rebut your assertions, I'll point to the relatively recent history of urban planning. In postwar Europe, the UK diverged from Continental Europe when it came to building much-needed new urban centers. Like China today, additional urban areas were developed to accommodate the then-burgeoning populations and to ameliorate the severe overcrowding.

The UK purposely chose to locate its New Towns far away from existing population centers, and it chose to not extend railway connections from the New Towns to each other and to the older, larger cities. New Towns were supposed to be self-contained and self-sufficient. Postwar Europe had very low car ownership rates (similar to China today), and people would live and work in their self-contained cities.

Continental Europe had its New Towns connected to its legacy cities via commuter rail. Guess which policy better suited its population? By the late 50s/early 60s, the results were clear. People WANT to move about, and even if they don't drive, they'll endure long, tedious, and congested public transit to reach their destination.

So you could argue that China =/= Postwar Europe. Well, let's take another example. You should be familiar with Hong Kong. Its nine New Towns were originally intended to be self-sufficient, and mass transit connections were intentionally omitted, as these urban areas were large enough, and each provided enough factory workers from their own batches of high density towers. Safe to say, each one of these New Towns inevitably had students, white collar workers, shoppers, and even factory workers enduring long, impossibly tedious commutes on cars, public transit, etc. to neighboring cities. And just like Postwar UK and 1970s Hong Kong, the factory workers in China don't have cars and don't have an absolute need to seek employment or even visit neighboring locales.

If you were to take public transit in any of the factory towns throughout Northern Shenzhen and Dongguan, you'd realize that the buses are overcrowded and the roads are overburdened. Doesn't this dismiss your notions of intercity transit being an unnecessary luxury? Even in Dongguan, there are more than just factory workers, and the factory workers themselves are not incarcerated. Even they want to visit the surrounding places in their spare time. 

If you take the Shenzhen Red Line through the gritty industrial areas, you'll realize the subway cars are still impossibly packed, even though the vast majority of the population is composed of out-of-province factory workers. If you go to the pathetically empty New South China Mall in Dongguan, you'll notice that it's actually not very far away from Guangzhou itself. It will soon be connected to Guangzhou and Shenzhen via rail. Maybe that's why its owners keep up with mall maintenance.


----------



## particlez

chornedsnorkack said:


> In Hong Kong, commuter lines don´t overlap with subways either, because the two serve the *same* purpose. Subways only go parallel to East Rail Line as far as Kowloon Tong Station, and parallel to West Rail Line as far Tsuen Wan West. The railway was already there, so were some of the stations (Sha Tin, University, Fanling, Sheung Shui, Lo Wu) - so rather than build a new dedicated subway parallel to East Rail and desert the stations of East Rail, (big waste of infrastructure and effort) you added second track and electrification to previously single track line, and extra stations (Kowloon Tong, Tai Wai, Fo Tan, Racecourse, Tai Po Market, Tai Wo) between the old ones.
> 
> Like most reasonable countries do. Like mainlanders should have done, and should still do.


Actually, they do. There are four lines linking the scattered New Towns to Kowloon and Hong Kong; Tung Chung, West Rail, East Rail, and Ma On Shan Line. Tung Chung and West Rail are completed. They stop in Western Kowloon before reaching city center. East Rail and Ma On Shan aren't completed, but they too will have intermediate stops before reaching city center. 

If you absolutely have to make a comparison, these lines are akin to the Paris RER. They serve as commuter rail to far off suburbs, and they serve as express lines in the inner city.


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## Pansori

Good point about RER. I was going to give this example. A city the size of Shanghai or Beijing absolutely needs this kind of transportation. How long does it take to cross the city on a normal metro line? How crowded does it get?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

particlez said:


> Ideally every large urban agglomeration would have readily accessible, grade separated rapid transit. The nomenclature does not really matter. It could be subway, commuter rail, some made-up term.





particlez said:


> Munich is a very good example of commuter rail done right. Electrified trains, ROWs, etc. If I remember correctly, they're also tunneling under the city to add speed/capacity. Unfortunately there's a LOT of bad commuter rail, especially in places large and wealthy enough to warrant better options. Diesel trains, shared tracks with cargo trains, often a subservient relationship to the cargo trains, at-grade crossings.


*Fortunately* there is a lot of bad commuter rail.

My city is probably not a "large" urban agglomeration. And the railway is grade separated only for 4 km or so.
3 railways branching out of the terminal station. 
1 branch, double tracked and electrified for 57 km (and double track continues beyond). After the first 4 km shared section (3 grade separated crossings), it has in the first 10 km or so, 5 grade separated road crossings and 1 at grade crossing.
Second branch, double tracked and electrified for 11 km, and continues there as a single track electrified line. After the first 2 km with 3 grade separated crossings, the next 9 km have 1 grade separated road crossing and 3 at grade crossings.
Third branch, single track unelectrified. After first 4 km shared section (4 grade separated crossings), only at grade crossings (I think 3 of them in next 6 km).
The first branch is shared with diesel trains. And the first two are shared with cargo. (The third, practically not at present).

My point: there are a lot of midsized (or, in China, big but poor) cities that cannot now afford good commuter rail.
Bad commuter rail is much better than no commuter rail. Bad commuter rail can be improved piecemeal. It is hard to attract people and buildings to a line built where there was previously no commuter rail.
And large cities should have good commuter rail PLUS a lot of bad commuter rail to places which do not warrant good commuter rail.


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## particlez

^Name a good mass transit system. Odds are much/most of it was built when the city was relatively poor. A good, efficient mass transit system improves overall efficiency and productivity, and adds to the overall wealth of the city. Go back to the largest expansion of transit in Moscow, Tokyo, Seoul, London, Paris, New York, etc. It's called the multiplier effect. If you want to go into boring details, Historical school economists like Friedrich List and Henry Carey explain the impact of infrastructure.

Sure a lousy commuter rail system is better than nothing at all. But if a city is building a transit system from scratch, it makes sense to build something that won't need to be upgraded right away. Running diesel trains and building at-grade, and then upgrading to electric trains and grade separation basically means starting from scratch.

Conversely, you REALLY, REALLY need to visit some places that are wealthy, and have been wealthy for a long time, yet still operate outdated commuter rail systems. Then you'll modify your editorial stance.


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## chornedsnorkack

particlez said:


> Sure a lousy commuter rail system is better than nothing at all. But if a city is building a transit system from scratch, it makes sense to build something that won't need to be upgraded right away. Running diesel trains and building at-grade, and then upgrading to electric trains and grade separation basically means starting from scratch.


Not scratch. The route of railway, the stations and the habit of people to use the railway remains in place unless the service is shut down.

Around me, the electrification was built piecemeal. First 11 km back in 1924, then next 16 km in 1947, then next 20 or so km in 1960, then additional branches...


----------



## hkskyline

particlez said:


> Short response: You just ignored the basics of transit planning.
> 
> Detailed response: In order to rebut your assertions, I'll point to the relatively recent history of urban planning. In postwar Europe, the UK diverged from Continental Europe when it came to building much-needed new urban centers. Like China today, additional urban areas were developed to accommodate the then-burgeoning populations and to ameliorate the severe overcrowding.
> 
> The UK purposely chose to locate its New Towns far away from existing population centers, and it chose to not extend railway connections from the New Towns to each other and to the older, larger cities. New Towns were supposed to be self-contained and self-sufficient. Postwar Europe had very low car ownership rates (similar to China today), and people would live and work in their self-contained cities.
> 
> Continental Europe had its New Towns connected to its legacy cities via commuter rail. Guess which policy better suited its population? By the late 50s/early 60s, the results were clear. People WANT to move about, and even if they don't drive, they'll endure long, tedious, and congested public transit to reach their destination.
> 
> So you could argue that China =/= Postwar Europe. Well, let's take another example. You should be familiar with Hong Kong. Its nine New Towns were originally intended to be self-sufficient, and mass transit connections were intentionally omitted, as these urban areas were large enough, and each provided enough factory workers from their own batches of high density towers. Safe to say, each one of these New Towns inevitably had students, white collar workers, shoppers, and even factory workers enduring long, impossibly tedious commutes on cars, public transit, etc. to neighboring cities. And just like Postwar UK and 1970s Hong Kong, the factory workers in China don't have cars and don't have an absolute need to seek employment or even visit neighboring locales.
> 
> If you were to take public transit in any of the factory towns throughout Northern Shenzhen and Dongguan, you'd realize that the buses are overcrowded and the roads are overburdened. Doesn't this dismiss your notions of intercity transit being an unnecessary luxury? Even in Dongguan, there are more than just factory workers, and the factory workers themselves are not incarcerated. Even they want to visit the surrounding places in their spare time.
> 
> If you take the Shenzhen Red Line through the gritty industrial areas, you'll realize the subway cars are still impossibly packed, even though the vast majority of the population is composed of out-of-province factory workers. If you go to the pathetically empty New South China Mall in Dongguan, you'll notice that it's actually not very far away from Guangzhou itself. It will soon be connected to Guangzhou and Shenzhen via rail. Maybe that's why its owners keep up with mall maintenance.


You are ignoring how China's economy works and how its workers live and travel. 

We don't care how the UK evolved post-war. What we see in China today are large migrant populations that don't travel around the city for fun because their basic necessities are all taken care of by their employer and they save as much as they can for their impoverished families far away. This type of demographic dictates how the transport infrastructure is planned and built. Don't think any European city can be a proper model for China at all.

Even comparisons with Hong Kong are grossly inaccurate and inappropriate based on demographics and work patterns alone. Period.

You have to understand who is riding the buses between cities - middle class folks who find CRH too expensive, or actual migrants moving around because they changed jobs, needed to make a home visit, etc. Keep in mind buses have a big discount compared to the CRH trains so even the wealthier folks will be attracted to them. Shenzhen North to Guangzhou South costs about 80 RMB, which is a substantial chunk of money for the upper middle class that makes more than the 4000 RMB urban worker average. Even for me, taking the bus from Hong Kong to Guangzhou costs less, guarantees me a seat, and is less of a hassle than taking the CRH out of Shenzhen.

Are you saying packed trains = the migrants are commuting, and hence commuter rail is required? The fact that trains are packed may also mean people do short trips and trains fill up once they empty out, so an express line ferrying passengers from far suburbs to the city centre may not even make sense. Keep in mind not everyone works in Futian and Lowu. For a city of 10+ million, even with the average 40% migrant population, the rest of the population is sizeable and I won't expect to see empty trains.

With empirical data, we see a study clocked Beijing's average commute distance was 19km, which means people don't live far from work (halve the amount for the actual distance from work) : http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1692839/beijingers-lead-chinas-pack-longest-daily-commute

Beijing already topped the list for longest commutes.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> You have to understand who is riding the buses between cities - middle class folks who find CRH too expensive, or actual migrants moving around because they changed jobs, needed to make a home visit, etc. Keep in mind buses have a big discount compared to the CRH trains so even the wealthier folks will be attracted to them. Shenzhen North to Guangzhou South costs about 80 RMB, which is a substantial chunk of money for the upper middle class that makes more than the 4000 RMB urban worker average. Even for me, taking the bus from Hong Kong to Guangzhou costs less, guarantees me a seat, and is less of a hassle than taking the CRH out of Shenzhen.


Does taking a bus from Hong Kong to Lo Wu also cost less than taking MTR for the same distance?

For example, prices out of Wuhan:
Wuhan-Xianning North, 85 km, by G train - 24 minutes, nonstop, second class 39 yuan 5 jiao
Wuhan-Xianning North, by D train - 26 minutes, nonstop, second class 24 yuan 5 jiao
Wuchang-Xianning, by T369 - 44 minutes, nonstop, hard seat 13 yuan

How does bus trip price compare?


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Does taking a bus from Hong Kong to Lo Wu also cost less than taking MTR for the same distance?
> 
> For example, prices out of Wuhan:
> Wuhan-Xianning North, 85 km, by G train - 24 minutes, nonstop, second class 39 yuan 5 jiao
> Wuhan-Xianning North, by D train - 26 minutes, nonstop, second class 24 yuan 5 jiao
> Wuchang-Xianning, by T369 - 44 minutes, nonstop, hard seat 13 yuan
> 
> How does bus trip price compare?


You will need to understand whether people actually will make that trip in the first place. 

13 RMB a trip on a hard seat equates to 520 RMB a month, which is a substantial amount of money considering an average urban salary of 4000 RMB. Keep in mind a subway ride in a large city would not typically cost more than half of that. Why would people move so far away?

From the data I presented, the Beijing commute is the longest at 19km, so I really wonder whether a 85km commute makes sense in the Chinese context. I don't understand why you are randomly throwing city pairs and train ticket prices without assessing whether that pair makes sense from a commuting perspective in the first place.

There is no bus service to Lo Wu, which is home to few villagers, but a major transit point for cross-border traffic. Buses do compete against the MTR for the Lok Ma Chau crossing and buses are considerably cheaper.


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> Current schedule shows rush hour frequencies of 4.5-6 minutes while weekends may be up to 10 minutes per train.


But it exploded.
Has it been repaired?


----------



## gincan

foxmulder said:


> That is the thing... China is *"there".* Instead of commuter rail lines in traditional sense (no grade separation, large distances between stops, very low frequency, long reach from city center), it has been building metro lines (grade separation, smaller distance between stops, high frequency and long reach from city center).
> 
> If you guys think, for example Beijing subway needs even longer reach then that is *High-speed intercity railways*.
> 
> If you guys think there should be less stops and faster trains in parallel to existing subway lines, that is simply an *express metro line *which we may see in the future indeed.


It does feel like a compromise though, Beijing, Shanghai and the other cities will ultimately lack the dense transit coverage combined with sparse transit coverage you get with the Paris Metro/RER/Transilien system combination.

I'm still convinced that if there were adequate transit options available, Chinese middle class would be more inclined to buy a house in the suburbs, in the end you can't get away from the fact that no matter the culture, people want as much living space as they can afford, that is the reason people put up with commuting 2-3 hours a day regardless if they live in London or Seoul.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Hong Kong has very successful commuter rail lines. The West Rail Line and East Rail Line are so popular, that they run at metro frequencies.

Property prices and living space will make people live further away from the city. Commuting every day by commuter rail line is cheaper than getting an apartment if the same size in the city.

I know so many people in Shanghai who would love a commuter rail line alternative to their regular metro line.

Commuter rail lines strengthen the metro network. It's not either/or, but and/and.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> For the larger cities such as Beijing, Shanghai, and Guangzhou, subway connections are available, but they are still a reasonably long ride away but it is nearly impossible to run a new line through densely-built city centres underground. They are trying to do this in Shenzhen and it caused quite some disruption over the past few years.


Which is why existing railway corridors ought to be used first.
How is the current state of progress of Futian Station?


hkskyline said:


> I personally hated to get to Hongqiao to catch a train, especially since I liked living on the Pudong side. If one was available out of the more urban Shanghai station, I would go for that instead.


Some CRH trains do use Shanghai station - as well as Shanghai West station.


----------



## dbhaskar

*China approves another 900km of new lines*

Source: International Railway Journal | September 28, 2015

CHINA's National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC) approved the construction of three new lines representing a total investment of Yuan 109.3bn ($US 17.2bn) on September 28, as the government seeks to reverse a slowdown in economic growth by boosting spending on infrastructure projects.

New Lines:

1) Wuhan to Shiyan in Hebei province

2) Xuzhou East to Huai'an and Yancheng in Jiangsu province

3) Xuyong in Sichuan province to Bijie in neightbouring Guizhou (mixed line)

Read further: http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/asia/china-approves-another-900km-of-new-lines.html?channel=540

Although I am a big fan of the high speed network in China, I am skeptical of these new plans. They don't seem to run through many major cities (excluding Wuhan) where people will be able to regularly afford these services. Almost looks like malinvestment to try to overcome the economic downturn...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

dbhaskar said:


> 3) Xuyong in Sichuan province to Bijie in neightbouring Guizhou (mixed line)
> 
> Although I am a big fan of the high speed network in China, .


Not only mixed, but top speed 120 km/h... and, for some reason, only 8 passenger trains daily.
Single or double track?


----------



## flankerjun

dbhaskar said:


> Source: International Railway Journal | September 28, 2015
> 
> CHINA's National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC) approved the construction of three new lines representing a total investment of Yuan 109.3bn ($US 17.2bn) on September 28, as the government seeks to reverse a slowdown in economic growth by boosting spending on infrastructure projects.
> 
> New Lines:
> 
> 1) Wuhan to Shiyan in Hebei province
> 
> 2) Xuzhou East to Huai'an and Yancheng in Jiangsu province
> 
> 3) Xuyong in Sichuan province to Bijie in neightbouring Guizhou (mixed line)
> 
> Read further: http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/asia/china-approves-another-900km-of-new-lines.html?channel=540
> 
> Although I am a big fan of the high speed network in China, I am skeptical of these new plans. They don't seem to run through many major cities (excluding Wuhan) where people will be able to regularly afford these services. Almost looks like malinvestment to try to overcome the economic downturn...


Wuhan to Shiyan line is part of Wuhan-Xian HSL.Xuzhou East to Huai'an and Yancheng line is to solve the lack of railway in North Jiangsu province.Jiangsu is a developed province in China,but there are nearly no railway in North Jiangsu.
and also,the demand for HST in "small city" is huge,too ,like the dandong-Shenyang line,Dandong is a city with 2 million,there are almost 40 pairs of HST between these two cities.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> Xuzhou East to Huai'an and Yancheng line is to solve the lack of railway in North Jiangsu province.Jiangsu is a developed province in China,but there are nearly no railway in North Jiangsu.


The schedule is stated as 4 years, so opening in 2019.
How are the plans to connect North Jiangsu with South Jiangsu?


----------



## flankerjun

chornedsnorkack said:


> The schedule is stated as 4 years, so opening in 2019.
> How are the plans to connect North Jiangsu with South Jiangsu?


there will be a line from Yancheng to Shanghai along the coast,and a line from Huaian to Zhenjiang.
yellow Line are all planned


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> there will be a line from Yancheng to Shanghai along the coast,and a line from Huaian to Zhenjiang.
> yellow Line are all planned


But black lines all exist! The line from Huaian and Yancheng to Wuxi, and to Xuzhou via the Xuzhou-Lianyungang railway.
How fast is the blue line west of Huaian?


----------



## flankerjun

chornedsnorkack said:


> But black lines all exist! The line from Huaian and Yancheng to Wuxi, and to Xuzhou via the Xuzhou-Lianyungang railway.
> How fast is the blue line west of Huaian?


black lines are conventional lines,they need HSR now.the blue line you point out is a coal railway,single line,top speed 120km/h and disel.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> black lines are conventional lines,they need HSR now.


The fastest train Huaian-Xuzhou is currently Z52, covering 220 km and taking 2:23.


----------



## big-dog

Cosmicbliss said:


> One thing I don't get is if the HSR stations are far from the city, how do you get from the station to the city? Private taxi or bus? Does this not lead to profiteering? Also, doesn't that indirectly reduce the efficiency of the HSR if a lot of time has to be spent commuting after getting down at the station.


Another role of the HSR station is to expand the city area and promote new area economy, though the effect will take years to be visualized.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pansori said:


> To my understanding the idea is that HSR stations are/will be connected to metro network if one is available in the city. I'm travelling to Nanning on the newly opened HSR line in a couple of weeks time and the only viable solution to get from the Nanning East to the center is by taxi. Metro line will get there next year.


Compare Shin-Yokohama - built on an existing commuter railway.


----------



## Hidden Dragon

chornedsnorkack said:


> But it exploded.
> Has it been repaired?


The explosion center


----------



## feisibuke

*(deleted)*

(deleted)


----------



## flankerjun

*today is National Day,Lots of people get around by train*


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Which station is this? Thanks for posting.


----------



## Pansori

flankerjun said:


> *today is National Day,Lots of people get around by train*


Tell me about it 
I'm in Shenzhen right now and bought my tickets for Guangzhou and Nanning yesterday. Holy Jesus! Shenzhen North station is crowded as hell, queue for tickets took about 1 hour, crowd management in place with countless security and police officers ( including riot police with their armored vehicle parked near the main entrance). Even with online booking system and ticket machines (massive queues there too) it's a bit of a hassle by the looks of it. I couldn't get the tickets I wanted for specific service between Guangzhou and Nanning 5 days in advance so was more than happy to take another service on that day which was still not fully booked (luckily). What a bad time to take a train in China 
Even the new mega-stations and even high-speed CRH services seem to be barely coping with demand around this time. I really can't imagine (and don't even want to think about it) how it used to be when there was no CRH service and no big modern stations. Must have been an utter nightmare for people trying to travel anywhere.


----------



## big-dog

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Which station is this? Thanks for posting.


Zhengzhou Station, Henan Province. Thanks to google image search


----------



## hamstergogogo

flankerjun said:


> some pictures of Beijing-Shenyang HSL,Progress is very fast.


is this similar to the wind/sand proof tunnel used on Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR?


----------



## hamstergogogo

chornedsnorkack said:


> Compare the boarding procedure of Shenzhen or Guangzhou Subway. How do they manage the crowds of stowaways and terrorists?


short distance or urban rapid rail transportation are quite different from long distance rail transportation. if you compare the average passenger mileage per trip, then you would find stark difference among these patterns. there is definitely room for improvement in the current CRH boarding procedures, but I don't think it can be changed or even compared to the subway mode. take safety for instance, due to the much longer distance a passenger travels on average, if all passengers are allowed on the platform at any time, much higher number of passengers will spend much more time (or be exposed) on the platform. the efforts for crowd control can be exponentially increased. 

of course average distance a passenger travels is only one such factor, there are many more other important factors such as ridership and number of lines interconnected at the station etc.

fyi, using data from wiki, the average distance a passenger travels per trip is about 500km in China, 140km in India, 75 km in France, 39 km in Germany and 36 km in Japan. 



flankerjun said:


> the average passenger mileage per trip in China is still increasing


then it is catering to long distance travelers. it is understandable though, as longer distance are 'shortened' by higher speed. 



foxmulder said:


> Not at all. Comparing the average passenger mileage per trips in Japan or European countries to geographically many times bigger China is misleading.
> 
> I actually see the very high average passenger mileage per trip in China as a very very good thing because alternatives have much more environmental damage (car/bus and planes) and from a personal perspective significantly less comfortable.


i wasn't arguing which mode is better, but simply stating the fact that the Chinese system is quite different from the European or Japanese ones(and looks like they will not be in the foreseeable future).


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> Currently, the fastest G trains take 4 hours. So what will be the expected travel time once this line is completed?


In which season?
The current best times are:
Beijing-Shenyang: 786 km, 2 trains in 3:58 with 1 stop at Tianjin; 295 yuan second class
Beijing-Dalian: 956 km, G387 in 4:59; 400 yuan second class
Beijing-Dandong: 1009 km, G397 in 6:13; 369 yuan second class
Beijing-Changchun: 1091 km, G381 in 5:48; 433 yuan second class
Beijing-Jilin: 1214 km, G383 in 7:23; 471 yuan 5 jiao second class
Beijing-Hunchun: dubious, D21 in 10:05; 369 yuan 5 jiao second class
Beijing-Harbin: 1404 km, G393 in 7:07; 541 yuan 5 jiao second class
Beijing-Qiqihar: 1527 km, D29 in 10:17; 406 yuan 5 jiao second class


----------



## foxmulder

flankerjun said:


> some pictures of Beijing-Shenyang HSL,Progress is very fast.


Does anyone know more info about or pictures of this monster?


----------



## foxmulder

dodge321 said:


> This is another line that will kill off a lot of flights.


Isn't that great? Suck it airlines!!


----------



## Pansori

hkskyline said:


> Currently, the fastest G trains take 4 hours. So what will be the expected travel time once this line is completed?


Currently the fastest service takes 4 hours at an average speed of 210km/h. 

The new line will be entirely 300km/h right? So assuming that distance will be similar and average speed will be somewhere in the range of 260km/h for the fastest services it should be around 3 hours.


----------



## Sunfuns

Pansori said:


> The new line will be entirely 300km/h right? *So assuming that distance will be similar* and average speed will be somewhere in the range of 260km/h for the fastest services it should be around 3 hours.


That might be wrong. Cursory glance at the map indicates that a shorter line would be possible. 

Does anyone have a map with the new route and a distance for it?


----------



## flankerjun

Pansori said:


> Currently the fastest service takes 4 hours at an average speed of 210km/h.
> 
> The new line will be entirely 300km/h right? So assuming that distance will be similar and average speed will be somewhere in the range of 260km/h for the fastest services it should be around 3 hours.


698km,and 2h30m


----------



## dodge321

Big news if turns out to be true, posted on feeyo.com, a Chinese aviation forum:

多方可靠消息，铁路总公司昨日(10.12日)开会，讨论中国高铁恢复运行时速350等问题。预计明年初（可能是16.1.10），从京沪高铁开始逐步恢复350公里运行时速，另外最小发车间隔改为3分钟，也就是说还增会加不少车次。按350跑的话，北京到上海最快的车大概4小时多一点点。大家讨论一下，如果京沪高铁按此方案实施，会不会对中国第一航线京沪线产生大的影响？

http://bbs.feeyo.com/posts/571/topic-0011-5719697.html

Basically, according to multiple reliable sources, railway officials had a meeting on 12 October discussing raising the speed of HSR to 350km/h, starting with the Beijing-Shanghai line. Expected time is early next year.


----------



## dodge321

foxmulder said:


> Isn't that great? Suck it airlines!!


It's wonderful!


----------



## chornedsnorkack

dodge321 said:


> Basically, according to multiple reliable sources, railway officials had a meeting on 12 October discussing raising the speed of HSR to 350km/h, starting with the Beijing-Shanghai line. Expected time is early next year.


Early 2016, or early Monkey Year?


----------



## hkskyline

_Excerpt_
*New line to complete Hainan's high-speed loop* 

HAIKOU, Oct. 13 (Xinhua) -- South China's Hainan Province moves a step closer to have the world's first high-speed train circling an island when technicians began testing the second half of the loop on Tuesday.

The Western Ring Railway should have been connected with Hainan's existing Eastern Ring Railway by the end of 2015 after a trial run, said a spokesperson with the railway's operator, Yuehai Railway.

With an investment of 27 billion yuan (4.27 billion U.S. dollars), the Western Ring has been under construction for two years. Trains will run at 200 km per hour on the 345-km new stretch, with 16 stops in six cities and counties.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

For some reason I thought this Western Ring Railway was already open. I would ask why only 200km/h but I guess going to 350km/h won't make much of a difference in time considering the distance around the island. Back in 2010 I took a bus from Sanya to Haikou, took 4 hours so 200km/h is a dream compared to that. Are there flights between Sanya and Haikou?



dodge321 said:


> Big news if turns out to be true, posted on feeyo.com, a Chinese aviation forum:
> 
> 多方可靠消息，铁路总公司昨日(10.12日)开会，讨论中国高铁恢复运行时速350等问题。预计明年初（可能是16.1.10），从京沪高铁开始逐步恢复350公里运行时速，另外最小发车间隔改为3分钟，也就是说还增会加不少车次。按350跑的话，北京到上海最快的车大概4小时多一点点。大家讨论一下，如果京沪高铁按此方案实施，会不会对中国第一航线京沪线产生大的影响？
> 
> http://bbs.feeyo.com/posts/571/topic-0011-5719697.html
> 
> Basically, according to multiple reliable sources, railway officials had a meeting on 12 October discussing raising the speed of HSR to 350km/h, starting with the Beijing-Shanghai line. Expected time is early next year.


This will be awesome if it comes about.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> For some reason I thought this Western Ring Railway was already open. I would ask why only 200km/h but I guess going to 350km/h won't make much of a difference in time considering the distance around the island.


And Western Ring only connects west side of Hainan... which is connected to slow speed railway anyway.
Are there any plans to connect Haian with, for example, Guangzhou?


----------



## hmmwv

dodge321 said:


> Big news if turns out to be true, posted on feeyo.com, a Chinese aviation forum:
> 
> 多方可靠消息，铁路总公司昨日(10.12日)开会，讨论中国高铁恢复运行时速350等问题。预计明年初（可能是16.1.10），从京沪高铁开始逐步恢复350公里运行时速，另外最小发车间隔改为3分钟，也就是说还增会加不少车次。按350跑的话，北京到上海最快的车大概4小时多一点点。大家讨论一下，如果京沪高铁按此方案实施，会不会对中国第一航线京沪线产生大的影响？
> 
> http://bbs.feeyo.com/posts/571/topic-0011-5719697.html
> 
> Basically, according to multiple reliable sources, railway officials had a meeting on 12 October discussing raising the speed of HSR to 350km/h, starting with the Beijing-Shanghai line. Expected time is early next year.


Like I said before, building another line between Beijing and Shanghai to satisfy demand won't happen within this decade. So that leaves us with three options: running faster trains, more frequency, and increase capacity per train (double decker, all 16 car trainsets, etc). If the journey can be shortened to just over 4 hours it'll be only a hour longer than the total travel time flying (including security, travel to airport, etc). This is not counting flight delays, though this may get better when Daxing opens. I expect a significant portion of airline passengers will choose HSR, as the latter is more comfortable, more reliable, and allow them to stay connected the whole way.


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> And Western Ring only connects west side of Hainan... which is connected to slow speed railway anyway.
> Are there any plans to connect Haian with, for example, Guangzhou?


http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/08/travel/china-high-speed-north-south-rail/


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hmmwv said:


> Like I said before, building another line between Beijing and Shanghai to satisfy demand won't happen within this decade. So that leaves us with three options: running faster trains,





hmmwv said:


> If the journey can be shortened to just over 4 hours it'll be only a hour longer than the total travel time flying (including security, travel to airport, etc). This is not counting flight delays, though this may get better when Daxing opens. I expect a significant portion of airline passengers will choose HSR,


Increasing speed does not increase line capacity/supply at all. It does, as pointed out, increase demand. If demand already exceeds supply, increasing speed will make a bad situation worse.


----------



## jaysonn341

^^ Slightly off topic, but was just browsing the alignment of the Sanya-Haikou line on google maps when I came across this thing:
https://www.google.com.au/maps/@18.6140866,110.2054456,17z/data=!3m1!1e3

Wut is it.


----------



## flankerjun

hamstergogogo said:


> is this similar to the wind/sand proof tunnel used on Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR?


Just the entrance of the tunnel.


----------



## flankerjun




----------



## flankerjun

delete


----------



## foxmulder

chornedsnorkack said:


> Increasing speed does not increase line capacity/supply at all. It does, as pointed out, increase demand. If demand already exceeds supply, increasing speed will make a bad situation worse.


Speed* is* major part of the formula that determines a line's capacity so speed increase generally means increased capacity. 

To simply put it, for a given time you can run more trains with higher speed so capacity increases.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> Speed* is* major part of the formula that determines a line's capacity


Where?


foxmulder said:


> so speed increase generally means increased capacity.
> 
> To simply put it, for a given time you can run more trains with higher speed so capacity increases.


Do you mean increase of speed directly decreases headways?


----------



## Sunfuns

Mathematics here is pretty simple - in theory speed has no impact on the line capacity. What does have a huge impact is trains with different speeds.


----------



## Grunnen

^^ No, it's not that easy. With higher speeds, braking distance increases quadratically whereas the time that a section remains occupied only decreases linearly, so that the capacity is decreased.


----------



## Peloso

Capacity decreases with speed... LOL


----------



## Grunnen

^^ Eh, yes?

To put it simple: with subways, it is not much of a problem to run with 90s headways. But a HSR train travelling at 350 km/h already needs more than 90 seconds to come to a full stop, plus the inefficiency of fixed-block train detection. Thus, 90s headways are absolutely not feasible in HSR traffic. (Except if one were to use moving-block train detection in combination with relative rather than absolute braking distance calculation in the interlocking, but all of that is still in the future, AFAIK.)

But on the other hand, higher speed does mean that you can transport more people with the same amount of vehicles and staff.


----------



## flankerjun

the higher speed means more trains in one hour,so it increases the,capacity


----------



## CxIxMaN

those brown accent trains look better then the blue


----------



## Pansori

flankerjun said:


> the higher speed means more trains in one hour,so it increases the,capacity


Why? You can dispatch similar amount of trains regardless of their speed. It may have some affect on capacity but overall it's quite minimal. It's not a major factor.

A major factor for capacity would be train size (how many passengers can fit in one train), signalling, boarding procedures etc. Speed in itself doesn't play much of a role.


----------



## hkskyline

For a long line such as Beijing - Shanghai, a marginal increase in speed (50 km/h) can create a huge time savings, which means the train can be turned around for more trips. That's the capacity increase.

With huge cities along that line, and Beijing and Shanghai being large themselves, I see a need to build duplicate lines, not just to create redundancy in case the other line goes down, but also to push the frequencies up. You can speed up the existing trains but the capacity that can be squeezed in won't be too significant.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> For a long line such as Beijing - Shanghai, a marginal increase in speed (50 km/h) can create a huge time savings, which means the train can be turned around for more trips. That's the capacity increase.


Only if there is a shortage of trains.
If, for example, Beijing-Shanghai takes 5 hours and there are 12 trains per hour at 5 minute headways, then there are 60 trains on the tracks between Beijing and Shanghai at any time.
Now suppose that these 60 trainsets are all that are available. Then if the line is sped up so that the trip now takes 4 hours, these 60 trainsets might start to travel at 15 per hour, 4 minute headways.
But this does not work if the line is full. Then the trains cannot travel at 4 minute headways because they would get in the way of each other and collide. Assuming 5 minute headways are still possible, the line capacity remains unchanged at 12 trains per hour (as pointed out, it might decrease instead) and only 48 trains can occupy the line at a time. The remaining 12 then become surplus to requirements and must be parked at depot, or sold off and their crews fired, or reassigned to other lines which are not yet full.

Is Beijing-Shanghai line full, or not?


----------



## Sunfuns

Pansori said:


> Why? You can dispatch similar amount of trains regardless of their speed. It may have some affect on capacity but overall it's quite minimal. It's not a major factor.
> 
> A major factor for capacity would be train size (how many passengers can fit in one train), signalling, boarding procedures etc. *Speed in itself doesn't play much of a role.*


That is true unless as mentioned above we go to extreme densities and need to take into account braking distances. However allowing just a single train capable of only 200 km/h on that line every hour would drastically reduce capacity (for simplicity assume no passing loops). So in that sense a speed does have an impact on capacity. 

In the real world capacity of high speed line is also higher because you can use daytime more efficiently. For example if it takes 1 h to cover the distance between city A and B the last train might be at 11 pm there as if it takes 3 h the last one might be at 9 pm since is not that desirable to arrive somewhere at 3 am.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Sunfuns said:


> In the real world capacity of high speed line is also higher because you can use daytime more efficiently. For example if it takes 1 h to cover the distance between city A and B the last train might be at 11 pm there as if it takes 3 h the last one might be at 9 pm since is not that desirable to arrive somewhere at 3 am.


Although slow speed trains do.
On Beijing-Shanghai, there are 4 trains that are not G.
Of these, D313 arrives at Nanjing 4:54 and Changzhou 5:58. Note that D trains Beijing-Shanghai run on slow speed railway.
T109 arrives at Xuzhou 3:01.
1461 arrives at Bengbu 0:49, Chuzhou North 2:14, Nanjing 3:01, Zhenjiang 3:48, Danyang 4:10, Changzhou 4:43, Wuxi 5:14.

How should overnight high speed trains be scheduled?


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Only if there is a shortage of trains.
> If, for example, Beijing-Shanghai takes 5 hours and there are 12 trains per hour at 5 minute headways, then there are 60 trains on the tracks between Beijing and Shanghai at any time.
> Now suppose that these 60 trainsets are all that are available. Then if the line is sped up so that the trip now takes 4 hours, these 60 trainsets might start to travel at 15 per hour, 4 minute headways.
> But this does not work if the line is full. Then the trains cannot travel at 4 minute headways because they would get in the way of each other and collide. Assuming 5 minute headways are still possible, the line capacity remains unchanged at 12 trains per hour (as pointed out, it might decrease instead) and only 48 trains can occupy the line at a time. The remaining 12 then become surplus to requirements and must be parked at depot, or sold off and their crews fired, or reassigned to other lines which are not yet full.
> 
> Is Beijing-Shanghai line full, or not?


You can easily search the schedule and see headways are nowhere near 5 minutes. Rolling stock is not an issue. There is a huge domestic manufacturer than can churn them out.


----------



## flankerjun

*Some pictures of Jilin-Hunchun HSR,copyright @铁路小亨*


----------



## Pansori

Damn those are beautiful views. I want to get there myself and take some photos


----------



## doc7austin

Some impressions from a short ride between Shenzhen North and Guangzhou South railway station.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Sunfuns said:


> That is true unless as mentioned above we go to extreme densities and need to take into account braking distances. However allowing just a single train capable of only 200 km/h on that line every hour would drastically reduce capacity (for simplicity assume no passing loops).


That´s the description of Jilin-Hunchun high speed railway. Speed 200 km/h, 10 trains daily departing from 7:12 to 18:46.


----------



## Sunfuns

chornedsnorkack said:


> That´s the description of Jilin-Hunchun high speed railway. Speed 200 km/h, 10 trains daily departing from 7:12 to 18:46.


Are there some trains doing 300 km/h and some others 200 km/h? If not then your example is not a good one.


----------



## Silly_Walks

hkskyline said:


> You need to consider the passenger flow and whether the largest cities have sufficient redundancy. Those city pairs should get the first priority in any capacity increase. It is simple economics.
> 
> With that, it is clear Beijing to Shanghai can sustain a second, different rail line.


I think you responded to the wrong post, because you didn't answer his question at all :lol:


----------



## flankerjun

FM 2258 said:


> Great explanation....still kinda confused as to why there is a new train with no designation. Also which is the CRH0207 you're talking about? I see the brown train and the CRH5 in the picture.


I mean the other 350km/h train


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> I gave one example already in my post. Would Beijing - Shanghai take less priority than a redundancy for small city pairs such as Jinan - Xuzhou? To frame the discussion back to what we have been discussing, it is a parallel line for Beijing - Shanghai to cater for growth.


And my point is that there may be a choice between capacity and redundancy. Which of them is more important?


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> And my point is that there may be a choice between capacity and redundancy. Which of them is more important?


You need both. Cannot look in isolation. The best is to get the two in one solution.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> You need both. Cannot look in isolation. The best is to get the two in one solution.


You still need to choose.
Four or more tracks on the same corridor are the best solution for capacity. It also has most efficient redundancy for single track failure, like a single stalled or slow moving train - because of frequent interconnections, the other trains can easily pass around on the neighbouring tracks, and still serve all the same stations (if unusual platforms) almost on schedule.

However, fires, spills and explosions can affect multiple tracks on the same line. The viaduct from Shimbashi to Tokyo station carries 8 (sic!) tracks - 6 (six) narrow gauge and 2 Shinkansen ones... and when Yurakucho station caught fire, this shut all eight tracks.

By comparison, parallel lines distant from each other cannot be obstructed by a common cause... except when it is at points where the lines meet. On the other hand, if one line is shut or just jammed, going around via the other line is a huge detour. If Beijing-Shanghai line is shut down between Jinan-Xuzhou, will the trains en route from Jinan to Xuzhou reverse to Beijing, reach Shanghai via Lianyungang and then travel Shanghai-Xuzhou via Nanjing?


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> You still need to choose.
> Four or more tracks on the same corridor are the best solution for capacity. It also has most efficient redundancy for single track failure, like a single stalled or slow moving train - because of frequent interconnections, the other trains can easily pass around on the neighbouring tracks, and still serve all the same stations (if unusual platforms) almost on schedule.
> 
> However, fires, spills and explosions can affect multiple tracks on the same line. The viaduct from Shimbashi to Tokyo station carries 8 (sic!) tracks - 6 (six) narrow gauge and 2 Shinkansen ones... and when Yurakucho station caught fire, this shut all eight tracks.
> 
> By comparison, parallel lines distant from each other cannot be obstructed by a common cause... except when it is at points where the lines meet. On the other hand, if one line is shut or just jammed, going around via the other line is a huge detour. If Beijing-Shanghai line is shut down between Jinan-Xuzhou, will the trains en route from Jinan to Xuzhou reverse to Beijing, reach Shanghai via Lianyungang and then travel Shanghai-Xuzhou via Nanjing?


The best redundancy is entirely separate infrastructure. If a fire, spill, or derailment occurs, all 4 tracks that you mention could be unusable. This redundancy would be useless.

Beijing and Shanghai are sufficiently large cities for an entirely separate line that originates and ends at different stations, offering enhanced connectivity for passengers from both cities.


----------



## nossiano

flankerjun said:


> I mean the other 350km/h train


Can someone tell me the names of these two new trains, please?


----------



## Silly_Walks

hkskyline said:


> The best redundancy is entirely separate infrastructure. If a fire, spill, or derailment occurs, all 4 tracks that you mention could be unusable. This redundancy would be useless.
> 
> Beijing and Shanghai are sufficiently large cities for an entirely separate line that originates and ends at different stations, offering enhanced connectivity for passengers from both cities.


You're not saying anything he isn't already saying himself. You never answer his questions, however: "On the other hand, if one line is shut or just jammed, going around via the other line is a huge detour. If Beijing-Shanghai line is shut down between Jinan-Xuzhou, will the trains en route from Jinan to Xuzhou reverse to Beijing, reach Shanghai via Lianyungang and then travel Shanghai-Xuzhou via Nanjing?"


----------



## Sunfuns

The best is indeed to have an entirely different route because of the side benefit that it allows to serve different intermediate destinations and thus reach an even larger potential market.


----------



## LaoTze

FM 2258 said:


> I see the new train says *CRH-0503* but what type is it? I love that CRH is introducing new colors to their trains other than blue. I'm also glad they're staying with the overall white color scheme.


It's a new train prototype under testing. After operating imported models for the past few years, China now wants to design new high-speed train sets with common sub-systems based on their own standard.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> Beijing and Shanghai are sufficiently large cities for an entirely separate line that originates and ends at different stations, offering enhanced connectivity for passengers from both cities.


Beijing and Shanghai, and several others, are also sufficiently large cities for several HSR stations on the same line.
Compare:
Taibei has Banqiao station, 7,2 km from Taibei, and all high speed trains, even expresses, stop in both.
Tokyo has Shinagawa and Ueno stations
Shinagawa, 6,8 km from Tokyo, is a stop of all expresses
Ueno, 3,6 km from Tokyo, is a stop for a lot of trains.

How is the current state of progress of Futian Station? When shall Beijing-Shenzhen trains start serving both Shenzhen North and Futian station on each trip?


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Beijing and Shanghai, and several others, are also sufficiently large cities for several HSR stations on the same line.
> Compare:
> Taibei has Banqiao station, 7,2 km from Taibei, and all high speed trains, even expresses, stop in both.
> Tokyo has Shinagawa and Ueno stations
> Shinagawa, 6,8 km from Tokyo, is a stop of all expresses
> Ueno, 3,6 km from Tokyo, is a stop for a lot of trains.
> 
> How is the current state of progress of Futian Station? When shall Beijing-Shenzhen trains start serving both Shenzhen North and Futian station on each trip?


As I have said before, Japan's incomes means train use and train line planning serve completely different purposes from China, so it is not a model for comparison.

I don't see how multiple stops in the same city on the same line would make connectivity better if anywhere along that single line goes down. It means everyone gets stranded whereas those that take a different line from a different station in the same city can move on. That is what redundancy is supposed to achieve.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> As I have said before, Japan's incomes means train use and train line planning serve completely different purposes from China,


Tokaido Shinkansen was opened in 1964, and planned before 1964, when Japan´s incomes were something else than what they are in 2015.


hkskyline said:


> I don't see how multiple stops in the same city on the same line would make connectivity better if anywhere along that single line goes down.


Mainly, it makes connectivity better at normal times.


hkskyline said:


> It means everyone gets stranded whereas those that take a different line from a different station in the same city can move on. That is what redundancy is supposed to achieve.


Actually these multiple stops meant redundancy exactly during the line failure through Yurakucho station fire! When the line went down, Tokaido Shinkansen did NOT close: the trains terminated and turned round at Shinagawa Station.


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Tokaido Shinkansen was opened in 1964, and planned before 1964, when Japan´s incomes were something else than what they are in 2015.
> 
> Mainly, it makes connectivity better at normal times.
> 
> Actually these multiple stops meant redundancy exactly during the line failure through Yurakucho station fire! When the line went down, Tokaido Shinkansen did NOT close: the trains terminated and turned round at Shinagawa Station.


You were talking about Ueno being a stop for a lot of trains. The Tokaido Shinkansen doesn't stop there. You were confusing commuter services with high-speed trains.

I wouldn't expect ending my journey at Cangzhou West, the next stop on the line 200 km south of Beijing, is better when Beijing South goes down compared to riding an alternative high-speed line that can take me to another inner city Beijing train station.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> You were talking about Ueno being a stop for a lot of trains. The Tokaido Shinkansen doesn't stop there.


No, but Tohoku Shinkansen does.


hkskyline said:


> You were confusing commuter services with high-speed trains.


Kodama trains, inter alia, are precisely both.


hkskyline said:


> I wouldn't expect ending my journey at Cangzhou West, the next stop on the line 200 km south of Beijing, is better when Beijing South goes down


Cangzhou West is not the stop next to Beijing South. Langfang is, and it is 59 km south of Beijing South, not 200.
And I´m arguing that this 59 is also too much - Beijing, like Tokyo, Taibei and Shenzhen, needs more high speed stations than just Beijing South.


hkskyline said:


> compared to riding an alternative high-speed line that can take me to another inner city Beijing train station.


How about, diverting at Tianjin West to Tianjin-Baoding High Speed Railway, and riding that line and then via Zhuozhou to Beijing West?
How is the current progress of Tianjin-Baoding High Speed Railway?


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> And I´m arguing that this 59 is also too much - Beijing, like Tokyo, Taibei and Shenzhen, needs more high speed stations than just Beijing South.
> 
> How about, diverting at Tianjin West to Tianjin-Baoding High Speed Railway, and riding that line and then via Zhuozhou to Beijing West?
> How is the current progress of Tianjin-Baoding High Speed Railway?


The point is China's HSR stations are far apart. This makes any issues on the line very problematic and will ripple through the entire line with significant inconvenience. Adding tracks would not improve the redundancy in case a major accident renders all the tracks useless. We should not be adding journey time by inserting many stations in between for an already long line hoping to make a bad redundancy case more relevant. A second separate line can recycle other lines rather than building everything new.

The CRH network is not meant to be an express commuter rail alternative. This is especially true for Beijing - Shanghai.


----------



## FM 2258

A video on these new train sets by *tjrgx*
*

China's New Standardized 350kph Train-Set Promo--中车350kph标准动车组*


----------



## Sopomon

Ah yes, the bucolic Chinese countryside...


----------



## hamstergogogo

Sopomon said:


> Ah yes, the bucolic Chinese countryside...


thanks for nitpicking with your toxic eyes. regarding that picture, it could be a render of European countryside, after all it's a potential market.


----------



## luhai

Sopomon said:


> Ah yes, the bucolic Chinese countryside...


You mean like these ones?




voyager221 said:


> Branch lines in northeast of china and soon to open Harbin-Qiqihar HSR
> By 做奥迪的王大师


----------



## Sopomon

I am well aware that China has countryside.
I am well aware that England isn't in China (yet).


----------



## luhai

Sopomon said:


> I am well aware that China has countryside.
> I am well aware that England isn't in China (yet).


So you can tell that's England? I must commend you on your ability to identify featureless terrain, with not even one identifying dark satanic mills found among these pleasant pastures seen! Personally i could have guessed Wisconsin, Southern Russia, or Las Pampas.


----------



## hmmwv

Sopomon said:


> I am well aware that China has countryside.
> I am well aware that England isn't in China (yet).


Why do you think scene in the video has to be China? It's perfectly clear the trainset has export customers in mind, and if it's England like you said, then it makes sense because it's a target market CRC is actively working on.


----------



## Svartmetall

As someone who has travelled through England, the hedgerows like that do look quite English to me, but really? Why so angsty in this thread everyone? Can we not tone it down somewhat?


----------



## Sopomon

luhai said:


> So you can tell that's England? I must commend you on your ability to identify featureless terrain, with not even one identifying dark satanic mills found among these pleasant pastures seen! Personally i could have guessed Wisconsin, Southern Russia, or Las Pampas.


Yes I can.

It's the Ouse Valley Viaduct in Sussex, on the London-Brighton main line.


----------



## luhai

Sopomon said:


> Yes I can.
> 
> It's the Ouse Valley Viaduct in Sussex, on the London-Brighton main line.


I bow to your photographic memory of terrain.


----------



## Saint Nazaire

del


----------



## hkskyline

The massive Shenzhen North Railway Station by Martyn Fordham, on Flickr


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> The massive Shenzhen North Railway Station


So, any updates about the progress of Shenzhen Futian railway station?


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> So, any updates about the progress of Shenzhen Futian railway station?


No news on opening. Everyone seems delayed. This one was originally scheduled to open in 2014 : http://szdaily.sznews.com/html/2013-07/24/content_2562036.htm


----------



## dodge321

chornedsnorkack said:


> So, any updates about the progress of Shenzhen Futian railway station?


Should be open before the end of the year.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/gangao/2015-10/31/c_128378616.htm

The two-month testing of tracks between Futian and Shenzhen North began a few days ago.


----------



## dodge321

Also according to the article Futian railway station will not reserve resources for customs/border facilities, probably due to uncertainty of when and even if the Hong Kong section of the line will be completed.


----------



## Pansori

dodge321 said:


> Also according to the article Futian railway station will not reserve resources for customs/border facilities, probably due to uncertainty of when and even if the Hong Kong section of the line will be completed.


How come? Hongqiao has even reserved space for maglev platforms even though the chance of it ever reaching Hongqiao is now probably equal to zero. Hong Kong on the other hand will almost certainly complete its part of the HSR. Only question is when. 2018?


----------



## dbhaskar

*High-speed railway project kicks off construction in central China*

Source: Xinhua | Date: 2015-10-31

Construction of a high-speed railway began on Saturday to connect central China's Henan and Hubei provinces with southwestern Chongqing Municipality.

The 818-km electrified railway links Zhengzhou, provincial capital of Henan, with Wanzhou District of Chongqing, with a designed speed of 350 km per hour. The total investment is estimated at around 120 billion yuan. When completed, the railway will cut the travel time between Zhengzhou and Chongqing from 17 hours to four hours.

Link: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-10/31/c_134769937.htm


----------



## Sunfuns

dbhaskar said:


> Source: Xinhua | Date: 2015-10-31
> 
> Construction of a high-speed railway began on Saturday to connect central China's Henan and Hubei provinces with southwestern Chongqing Municipality.
> 
> The 818-km electrified railway links Zhengzhou, provincial capital of Henan, with Wanzhou District of Chongqing, with a designed speed of 350 km per hour. The total investment is estimated at around 120 billion yuan. When completed, the railway will cut the travel time between Zhengzhou and Chongqing from 17 hours to four hours.
> 
> Link: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-10/31/c_134769937.htm


Any idea about the route and where would the major intermediate stations be?


----------



## Pansori

dbhaskar said:


> Source: Xinhua | Date: 2015-10-31
> 
> Construction of a high-speed railway began on Saturday to connect central China's Henan and Hubei provinces with southwestern Chongqing Municipality.
> 
> The 818-km electrified railway links Zhengzhou, provincial capital of Henan, with Wanzhou District of Chongqing, with a designed speed of 350 km per hour. The total investment is estimated at around 120 billion yuan. When completed, the railway will cut the travel time between Zhengzhou and Chongqing from 17 hours to four hours.
> 
> Link: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-10/31/c_134769937.htm


Good news. There is very little information on this one in Wikipedia or other English language sources. I can only see that it's listed as a 770km length line in Wiki article. No separate page and no indication of designed speed. Is it going to be a real 350km/h line? I.e. not one of those 'with possibility to upgrade in the future' while 'initially will run at 200km/h'?



Sunfuns said:


> Any idea about the route and where would the major intermediate stations be?


From Wikipedia:


> HSR linking Zhengzhou, Xiangyang, Badong and Wanzhou


----------



## dodge321

Pansori said:


> How come? Hongqiao has even reserved space for maglev platforms even though the chance of it ever reaching Hongqiao is now probably equal to zero. Hong Kong on the other hand will almost certainly complete its part of the HSR. Only question is when. 2018?


Space for border facilities can prob be made once there is a clearer timeline for the Hong Kong section. Pushing the completion date back by three-four years in 2015 when the project was originally meant to be done in 2016 creates a lot of uncertainty. If Hongqiao still has that space reserved, it should make better use of it.


----------



## GZ-zhang

The plan has always been for co-location of Hong Kong and Mainland customs and immigration controls at West Kowloon Terminus in Hong Kong. Passengers will officially “enter” the Mainland (ie clear customs and immigration) in West Kowloon before they board the train, so that no such facilities are required at Futian or any other station. This will mean that service can be offered from Hong Kong to dozens of cities throughout the mainland without the need for immigration control at all of them.

Recently, Hong Kong has started saying that there are legal and constitutional issues with allowing Mainland officers to carry out their duties on Hong Kong territory. But this has always been an essential feature of the project and is the only sensible and realistic solution to adding Hong Kong to the national HSR network. The Mainland stations are already substantially completed with no space for immigration and it is not feasible to create and staff control points at many other stations across the country just for Hong Kong service. 

At Shenzhen Bay Port (car and person crossing), the Mainland already agreed an arrangement where Hong Kong laws are applied on their side of the checkpoint, and their staff can carry out their duties, even though it is physically in Shenzhen. So I hope they will be able to resolve the issues and reach an agreement for Mainland officers to do the same at West Kowloon.


----------



## flankerjun

SLJ900/32 Bridge Girder Erection Mega Machine


----------



## moon993

GZ-zhang said:


> The plan has always been for co-location of Hong Kong and Mainland customs and immigration controls at West Kowloon Terminus in Hong Kong. Passengers will officially “enter” the Mainland (ie clear customs and immigration) in West Kowloon before they board the train, so that no such facilities are required at Futian or any other station. This will mean that service can be offered from Hong Kong to dozens of cities throughout the mainland without the need for immigration control at all of them.
> 
> Recently, Hong Kong has started saying that there are legal and constitutional issues with allowing Mainland officers to carry out their duties on Hong Kong territory. But this has always been an essential feature of the project and is the only sensible and realistic solution to adding Hong Kong to the national HSR network. The Mainland stations are already substantially completed with no space for immigration and it is not feasible to create and staff control points at many other stations across the country just for Hong Kong service.
> 
> At Shenzhen Bay Port (car and person crossing), the Mainland already agreed an arrangement where Hong Kong laws are applied on their side of the checkpoint, and their staff can carry out their duties, even though it is physically in Shenzhen. So I hope they will be able to resolve the issues and reach an agreement for Mainland officers to do the same at West Kowloon.


This scheme is similar to US border preclearance they have in Canadian airports, just that you replace the USA with mainland China and Canada with Hong Kong.


----------



## Kutsuit

*Photographer records night-shift "doctors" examining high-speed trains in NW China's #Xinjiang* 

https://twitter.com/XHNews/status/664350425538170880


----------



## hkskyline

Hangzhou, Oct-2015 by Mitch Altman, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

This report indicates Shenzhen North to Guiyang North service will begin next Jan. 10 : http://www.sznews.com/news/content/2015-11/14/content_12478357.htm

2nd class tickets will cost 342 yuan.


----------



## Kutsuit

*1. High-speed Train for Adverse Weather, Low Temperature to Run by End of Year*

http://en.yibada.com/articles/84976...e-weather-low-temperature-run-end-of-year.htm












> CRRC is set to launch the operation of CRH2G high-speed train that can run on adverse weather conditions and extreme low temperatures by the end of the year. (Photo : www.railjournal.com)


*2. Xinjiang's New High Speed Train (Urumqi to Lanzhou)*


----------



## Sunfuns

I wonder if this new train could also be used to run from Beijing to Harbin at full speed also in winter.


----------



## ccdk

*Nanjing - Anqing HSR to enter official operation in December*
http://www.mnw.cn/news/shehui/1031992.html


----------



## ccdk

*300km/h all year round for HSR in the northeast*
http://www.china-railway.com.cn/xwdt/mtktl/201510/t20151027_51525.html

Don't know if anyone noticed this, from this year, there will be no speed reduction to 200km/h following the winter schedule. Harbin - Dalian & Panjin - Yingkou HSR will run at 300km/h all year round!


----------



## ccdk

http://www.china-railway.com.cn/xwdt/rdzt/zxhh/


----------



## Pansori

http://www.china-railway.com.cn/xwdt/rdzt/zxhh/201511/W020151112549056552197.jpg

What the??? Where is this?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

ccdk said:


> *300km/h all year round for HSR in the northeast*
> http://www.china-railway.com.cn/xwdt/mtktl/201510/t20151027_51525.html
> 
> Don't know if anyone noticed this, from this year, there will be no speed reduction to 200km/h following the winter schedule. Harbin - Dalian & Panjin - Yingkou HSR will run at 300km/h all year round!


I´ve seen it mentioned, but without a link given.


----------



## ll2800116

Very beautiful pics


----------



## CarlosBlueDragon

ccdk said:


> http://www.china-railway.com.cn/xwdt/rdzt/zxhh/


wow , where place??


----------



## hkskyline

Source : http://pic.feeyo.com/posts/627/6273913.html


----------



## foxmulder

Pansori said:


> http://www.china-railway.com.cn/xwdt/rdzt/zxhh/201511/W020151112549056552197.jpg
> 
> What the??? Where is this?


Seriously...


----------



## t2contra

foxmulder said:


> Seriously...


The railway to heaven.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> The point is China's HSR stations are far apart. This makes any issues on the line very problematic and will ripple through the entire line with significant inconvenience. Adding tracks would not improve the redundancy in case a major accident renders all the tracks useless. We should not be adding journey time by inserting many stations in between for an already long line hoping to make a bad redundancy case more relevant.


Taiwan is doing exactly that - inserting many stations. Which is not slowing down the line at all. The trains with 2 stops still take 1:36 as before. The trains with 6 stops still take 2:00 as before. It is just the trains with all stops that now take 2:18.

How many stations should be inserted between Beijing and Tianjin?


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Taiwan is doing exactly that - inserting many stations. Which is not slowing down the line at all. The trains with 2 stops still take 1:36 as before. The trains with 6 stops still take 2:00 as before. It is just the trains with all stops that now take 2:18.
> 
> How many stations should be inserted between Beijing and Tianjin?


Taiwan incomes are far higher so they can draw commuters in to use the HSR. Cannot blindly compare against the mainland. Adding the 3 new stations has slowed the overall journey time, although they still maintain some skip-stop services. Also keep in mind Taipei and Kaohsiung are not far apart, so the incremental time difference would be relatively small. You can't extrapolate that to the much longer Beijing - Shanghai or Beijing - Guangzhou services.


----------



## flankerjun

New CRH train reach 385km/h in test


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> Also keep in mind Taipei and Kaohsiung are not far apart, so the incremental time difference would be relatively small.


1:36 vs. 2:18. 42 minutes difference, on top of 96 minutes.


hkskyline said:


> You can't extrapolate that to the much longer Beijing - Shanghai or Beijing - Guangzhou services.


But China has a lot of short distances.
Taipei-Zuoying 339 km
Shanghai-Nanjing 301 km
Beijing-Shijiazhuang 281 km
Beijing-Jinan West 406 km.


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> But China has a lot of short distances.
> Taipei-Zuoying 339 km
> Shanghai-Nanjing 301 km
> Beijing-Shijiazhuang 281 km
> Beijing-Jinan West 406 km.


I refer back to what was previously discussed - average urban incomes are not enough to sustain commutes on the CRH. So what is the purpose of adding stations even if you myopically chop up city pairs along these long lines?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> Looking at the average incomes, that is not the case - not for everyday use. They may be able to afford an occasional weekend trip, but a peasant or migrant cannot afford routine, regular use. These people move to the cities and are provided housing already because their wages are so low, so I doubt they even consider using CRH unless in the worst case scenario they cannot secure the slow train or bus trickets for their annual CNY hometown.


You are mentioning just "everyday" and "annual" travel. There is a huge difference between 1 and 240 return trips per year.
People who travel by CRH 3 times per year or 30 times per year are a huge number of trips taken together. 
As are people who could secure slow train or bus tickets no problem, but the return travel time would eat away too much of the weekend or workday they can spare for going home or a business trip. What is "routine" and "regular" for you? Would using CRH rather than slow train or not travelling once a year each Tomb Sweeping Day be "regular"?


hkskyline said:


> The other aspect which I have raised in a previous discussion of this same topic in this same thread is why would people want to spend a fortune commuting on CRH when average urban rents are low? Would you half of your rent on public transport? What kind of rental savings can you realistically achieve by moving far with CRH transport costs?


Why would people want to spend a fortune going home for New Year? What kind of rental savings do the migrants achieve by having a hometown, rather than moving to city once in life and never going back?


hkskyline said:


> I don't see the purpose of chopping the lines for a myopic analysis. Are you suggesting people commute between Fukuoka and Tokyo on a daily basis?


No. I´m suggesting they never have, and particularly did not do so back in 1975.


hkskyline said:


> Not really a big issue since Hongqiao is directly connected to 2 subway lines that will get you into town in about 30-40 minutes - a reasonable amount of time although not ideal.


Yes, but people who choose to fly in the first place can use these same subway lines.


----------



## skyridgeline

ChinaBRICS said:


> TGV is also too expensive for daily use for middle class in France.
> Even more expensive for middle class in Germany or Spain.


Beijing-Tianjin costs about US $10. I think the toll would cost ~ US $5 - $10 on the road :lol:.


----------



## skyridgeline

ChinaBRICS said:


> TGV is also too expensive for daily use for middle class in France.
> Even more expensive for middle class in Germany or Spain.


... Duplicate


----------



## hkskyline

skyridgeline said:


> Trucks and buses combined for a total of ~10%?
> 
> Why daily? Maybe once a week? There are a lot of people living in the areas along the route.


For migrants, they get housing by their employer and make very low wages so they won't likely splurge on the weekend with a CRH outing when their families back in the rural areas need the money for useful things. 

For the middle class, it makes little sense to rent a place in the city for the work week only and then commute back for the weekend. While rents are cheap by international standards, they eat into a significant portion of their income and CRH just eats away even more of whatever little disposable income they have left.

Hence, out-of-town commutes are not common in Chinese cities. You rent in town and stay in town and go home for major festivals such as CNY. Instead, the middle class would be occasional travelers who take the CRH for an outing, or for a longer vacation during a golden week holiday. Hence, providing CRH commuter service isn't the smartest thing to do economically at this point.

Keep in mind while the population centres along the major lines, such as Beijing-Guangzhou, are huge, intercity commuter travel is still uncommon given the cost concerns. It is actually more economical to rent in town than to commute by CRH. The commuting cost can easily equate to the rental itself.



chornedsnorkack said:


> You are mentioning just "everyday" and "annual" travel. There is a huge difference between 1 and 240 return trips per year.
> People who travel by CRH 3 times per year or 30 times per year are a huge number of trips taken together.
> As are people who could secure slow train or bus tickets no problem, but the return travel time would eat away too much of the weekend or workday they can spare for going home or a business trip. What is "routine" and "regular" for you? Would using CRH rather than slow train or not travelling once a year each Tomb Sweeping Day be "regular"?


The average private sector urban income in Beijing is 36k RMB, or about 3k RMB a month. A roundtrip C train ticket to Tianjin costs 110 RMB. I probably would balk to spend 4% of my monthly gross salary for *one* outing to a nearby city. That's why even the middle class would be occasional travelers, and not CRH commuters. Looking at these figures, I would interpret occasional to be not even once a month.

Tomb-sweeping day is not a week-long "golden week" holiday, so it is unlikely most of the urban middle class can head back to their hometowns for the ritual ceremonies. 




chornedsnorkack said:


> Why would people want to spend a fortune going home for New Year? What kind of rental savings do the migrants achieve by having a hometown, rather than moving to city once in life and never going back?


The migrants don't have much of a choice for CNY. Not only is it a traditional family get-together festival, factories where these migrants work shut down for much of the month around CNY, so they have no work to do anyway. Hence, this mass migration takes place. But then, the slow trains are cheap so spending a little to get home isn't a big deal for them, while the middle class can fight for a CRH ticket and maybe even fly abroad for the golden week.

The tradition is migrants head home once a year around CNY. This is not a cost concern, but a cultural one. That being said, it is not a head home at any cost solution, but rather a slow trip back using economic (non-CRH) means.


----------



## Pansori

hkskyline said:


> The operator would have needed a state bailout or gone through bankruptcy paying all the interest on the debt incurred to build extravagant projects that are not used by the passengers they were built for. You plan for 2050 by building new lines but you don't build and commission all the stations 35 years before they are realistically viable.
> 
> In these days of austerity, white elephants like your "long-term planning" fantasies are no longer encouraged. China has enough of these white elephants on display already.
> 
> I still see a lot of hand-waving "economics" and no realistic analysis of incomes, rents, and train ticket prices - the drivers of passenger use, and why CRH was designed and operates in this way today.


You're mixing up developed economies (like US or UK) with an economy that is in the middle of urbanization. If your model was applied to China since 1979 then China wouldn't be what it is today but perhaps something more comparable to Bangladesh i.e. without any infrastructure, housing or transport system because of insufficient 'income levels'. This is the problem with such view. It's too limited and ignoring too many core factors to be sensible.

Amazingly some 'experts' and 'analysts' were calling CRH just that, white elephant, a few years back. They were proven wrong by now. Your rationalization about incomes and commuting is clearly wrong too. Entire China's development was based on long-term planning. Shenzhen is a result of that too. Short-termism is not the way to go if you want a country to get somewhere.


----------



## hkskyline

Pansori said:


> You're mixing up developed economies (like US or UK) with an economy that is in the middle of urbanization. If your model was applied to China since 1979 then China wouldn't be what it is today but perhaps something more comparable to Bangladesh i.e. without any infrastructure, housing or transport system because of insufficient 'income levels'. This is the problem with such view. It's too limited and ignoring too many core factors to be sensible.
> 
> Amazingly some 'experts' and 'analysts' were calling CRH just that, white elephant, a few years back. They were proven wrong by now. Your rationalization about incomes and commuting is clearly wrong too. Entire China's development was based on long-term planning. Shenzhen is a result of that too. Short-termism is not the way to go if you want a country to get somewhere.


The infrastructure is there for the long-term, and can be recalibrated to adapt to changing usage patterns. But services need to cater for *present demand*, not some hypothetical in 30-50 years. That's the key point.

Adding commuter services now when there is no income argument to support it is silly. It has nothing to do with a long-term view. Do you run an empty line and make it a white elephant then justify that's the long-term future?

Luckily, the builders of the CRH network realized the high-speed lines should cater for long-distance travel, so it didn't become a white elephant.


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## flankerjun

*Shanghai-Kunming HSR,Beipanjing Bridge close today.*


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## oliver999

hkskyline said:


> Looking at the average incomes, that is not the case - not for everyday use. They may be able to afford an occasional weekend trip, but a peasant or migrant cannot afford routine, regular use. These people move to the cities and are provided housing already because their wages are so low, so I doubt they even consider using CRH unless in the worst case scenario they cannot secure the slow train or bus trickets for their annual CNY hometown.
> 
> .


construct workers(no skill) earn at least 10000USD a year. yangtz river delta constructer workders (no skill) can earn 20000USD a year. costs is not a problem.


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## skyridgeline

hkskyline said:


> For migrants, they get housing by their employer and make very low wages so they won't likely splurge on the weekend with a CRH outing when their families back in the rural areas need the money for useful things.
> 
> For the middle class, it makes little sense to rent a place in the city for the work week only and then commute back for the weekend. While rents are cheap by international standards, they eat into a significant portion of their income and CRH just eats away even more of whatever little disposable income they have left.
> 
> Hence, out-of-town commutes are not common in Chinese cities. You rent in town and stay in town and go home for major festivals such as CNY. Instead, the middle class would be occasional travelers who take the CRH for an outing, or for a longer vacation during a golden week holiday. Hence, providing CRH commuter service isn't the smartest thing to do economically at this point.
> 
> Keep in mind while the population centres along the major lines, such as Beijing-Guangzhou, are huge, intercity commuter travel is still uncommon given the cost concerns. It is actually more economical to rent in town than to commute by CRH. The commuting cost can easily equate to the rental itself.
> ....


If 200 million migrants made four "commuting distance" trips annually at say US $20 per trip, that would be US $16 billion in revenue for the CRH. 

I think connectivity ( therefore, travelling time ) is a major problem for everyone. For a lot of people, more so than the price of CRH tickets. 

I actually think daily commute (> 50km one way) to a typical job is silly regardless. However, there should be enough unique/special circumstances to demand "commuting" services ( if not now, then in the near future). Urban planning policies will have a big impact.



oliver999 said:


> construct workers(no skill) earn at least 10000USD a year. yangtz river delta constructer workders (no skill) can earn 20000USD a year. costs is not a problem.


They all have skills. It's just some are more valued than others.


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## hamstergogogo

oliver999 said:


> construct workers(no skill) earn at least 10000USD a year. yangtz river delta constructer workders (no skill) can earn 20000USD a year. costs is not a problem.


1. most of them don't have benefits other than salary. not very good benefit packages to say the least.

2. they are skilled construction workers. I think you are trying to equate 'no skill'='no college education and doesn't know how to work in an office on a computer', which is ironic since nowadays fresh college graduates with computer knowledge only earn a fraction of what construction workers do.



anyway, it seems quite outdated to discuss whether people can afford HSR in China, especially considering the latest news that over 60% of trains in service will be HST starting January 2016.

edit: just noticed the debate is about HSR commuting. The definition of HSR and ICL are somewhat ambiguous in China, and since commuter rail was almost nonexistent before, this creates some confusion. I think the next phase is the construction of ICLs, which by definition may cater to some commuters while by standard they are also HSRs.


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> For migrants, they get housing by their employer and make very low wages so they won't likely splurge on the weekend with a CRH outing when their families back in the rural areas need the money for useful things.
> 
> For the middle class, it makes little sense to rent a place in the city for the work week only and then commute back for the weekend. While rents are cheap by international standards, they eat into a significant portion of their income


And the difference of costs, between renting a place in a worker dormitory or renting or buying a house adequate for wife, child and grandparents, and paying for child´s education and grandparents´ medical care (which they aren´t getting free at public cost because they don´t have city hukou) also eats into a significant portion of income.


hkskyline said:


> The average private sector urban income in Beijing is 36k RMB, or about 3k RMB a month. A roundtrip C train ticket to Tianjin costs 110 RMB. I probably would balk to spend 4% of my monthly gross salary for *one* outing to a nearby city. That's why even the middle class would be occasional travelers, and not CRH commuters. Looking at these figures, I would interpret occasional to be not even once a month.


A roundtrip T, K or number train ticket costs 37 to 43 yuan.
And trip time, one way, exceeds 2 hours for several slow trains.

When an urban professional in Tianjin needs a business trip to Beijing and back, a slow train means spending 4 hours +time at destination. CRH means slightly over 1 hour + time at destination.
Is saving these 70 yuan worth taking 3 extra hours out of a working day?
Note that a return trip by D train costs 79 yuan, and takes 48 minutes one way. 
Unfortunately, only 1 D train daily.
Should more D trains be operated between Beijing and Tianjin?


hkskyline said:


> Tomb-sweeping day is not a week-long "golden week" holiday, so it is unlikely most of the urban middle class can head back to their hometowns for the ritual ceremonies.


If the trip time is 10 hour either way, it makes little sense to spend 2 days travelling to be at destination for a few hours. However, spending 2...4 hours in a high speed train is a more attractive proposal for a special weekend.



hkskyline said:


> The migrants don't have much of a choice for CNY. Not only is it a traditional family get-together festival, factories where these migrants work shut down for much of the month around CNY, so they have no work to do anyway. Hence, this mass migration takes place.


Peasants do not mass migrate out of their villages when fields shut down for winter.


hkskyline said:


> golden week.
> 
> The tradition is migrants head home once a year around CNY. This is not a cost concern, but a cultural one. That being said, it is not a head home at any cost solution, but rather a slow trip back using economic (non-CRH) means.


National Day is also a golden week, but unlike New Year, not a cultural tradition. Do migrants stay in cities for the National Day golden week, or go home?


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## hamstergogogo

flankerjun said:


> *Shanghai-Kunming HSR,Beipanjing Bridge close today.*


awesome. Beipan Jiang (Beipan River) is already home to several impressive bridges, including a couple of world's highest bridges and the current world's highest railway bridge. Upon completion, this new bridge will be the world's highest railway bridge.


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## hmmwv

Silly_Walks said:


> I prefer the record of the CRH380BL at 487.3 km/h.


True, but that CRH380BL trainset was a test train with added motor cars, while the CRH380AL was a commercial train with normal configuration.


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## FM 2258

flankerjun said:


>


I love the look of this CRH350. Is it a ground up design or is it based on one of the European or Japanese train models? 

CRH3(380B) > CRH350 > CRH5 > CRH500. Love these looks the best.


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## naimabep

FM 2258 said:


> I love the look of this CRH350. Is it a ground up design or is it based on one of the European or Japanese train models?
> 
> CRH3(380B) > CRH350 > CRH5 > CRH500. Love these looks the best.


looks alike like Bombardier Zefiro with a shorter head lamp.


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## hkskyline

oliver999 said:


> construct workers(no skill) earn at least 10000USD a year. yangtz river delta constructer workders (no skill) can earn 20000USD a year. costs is not a problem.


Please provide a credible source for the figures. Also, I suggest you calculate how much a Tianjin construction worker would spend commuting to Beijing on a C train daily and you will be amazed how unaffordable such a journey would be.





skyridgeline said:


> I think connectivity ( therefore, travelling time ) is a major problem for everyone. For a lot of people, more so than the price of CRH tickets.
> 
> I actually think daily commute (> 50km one way) to a typical job is silly regardless. However, there should be enough unique/special circumstances to demand "commuting" services ( if not now, then in the near future). Urban planning policies will have a big impact.


That's why Chinese cities are on a subway building spree. That's how the masses can get to work in an affordable and efficient way. Luckily, Chinese cities are not as sprawled out as their Western counterparts yet due to more dense planning practices.



chornedsnorkack said:


> And the difference of costs, between renting a place in a worker dormitory or renting or buying a house adequate for wife, child and grandparents, and paying for child´s education and grandparents´ medical care (which they aren´t getting free at public cost because they don´t have city hukou) also eats into a significant portion of income.


That is exactly why adding stations on existing long HSR lines to cater for commutes is more than silly. 



chornedsnorkack said:


> When an urban professional in Tianjin needs a business trip to Beijing and back, a slow train means spending 4 hours +time at destination. CRH means slightly over 1 hour + time at destination.
> Is saving these 70 yuan worth taking 3 extra hours out of a working day?
> Note that a return trip by D train costs 79 yuan, and takes 48 minutes one way.
> Unfortunately, only 1 D train daily.
> Should more D trains be operated between Beijing and Tianjin?


Business travel is not the same as regular commuting. The CRH network has been very beneficial to the business traveler, especially between Beijing and Shanghai where there is so much business traffic and flights are unpredictable these days. 

There are plenty of CRH trains between Beijing and Tianjin. They are the "C" trains.



chornedsnorkack said:


> Peasants do not mass migrate out of their villages when fields shut down for winter.


Peasants don't go anywhere unless they migrate to the cities. Period. The migrants that were formerly from these farming villages go home during CNY. That's the mass migration. You should research some news reports on the sheer numbers of this annual migration.



chornedsnorkack said:


> National Day is also a golden week, but unlike New Year, not a cultural tradition. Do migrants stay in cities for the National Day golden week, or go home?


The country does not shut down for as long during the other golden weeks. The middle class can now start to go abroad, while the migrants don't likely have enough time to make a home visit.


----------



## flankerjun

FM 2258 said:


> I love the look of this CRH350. Is it a ground up design or is it based on one of the European or Japanese train models?
> 
> CRH3(380B) > CRH350 > CRH5 > CRH500. Love these looks the best.


groundup design,crh350 is getting rid of the shadow of Germany and JP


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## chornedsnorkack

hamstergogogo said:


> anyway, it seems quite outdated to discuss whether people can afford HSR in China, especially considering the latest news that over 60% of trains in service will be HST starting January 2016.


And that´s a problem.
Could you give details? How many slow speed trains are in service?


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## hamstergogogo

chornedsnorkack said:


> Could you give details? How many slow speed trains are in service?


starting January 2016, there will be 1980.5 pairs of CRH trains out of a total of 3142 pairs.

For comparison, in July 2014, there were 1330 pairs of CRH trains out of a total of 2447 pairs. The total number of trains in 2009 was 1551 pairs. The number of slow trains has not changed much over the years.


----------



## Grunnen

^^ Interesting. That's really a quick growth. But I suppose there has also been a lot of 'room upwards'. In a small country like the Netherlands there are already about 2750 train pairs per day, and in India even more than 6000.


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## chornedsnorkack

Grunnen said:


> ^^ Interesting. That's really a quick growth. But I suppose there has also been a lot of 'room upwards'. In a small country like the Netherlands there are already about 2750 train pairs per day, and in India even more than 6000.


Yes. That´s the problem with Chinese rail.
July 2014 - 1117 pairs
January 2016 - 1161,5 pairs
India - over 6000 pairs.


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## Sunfuns

I'm a bit lost... What exactly is a train pair? Is that just number of services in both directions or is it related to actual train sets?


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## hkskyline

Grunnen said:


> ^^ Interesting. That's really a quick growth. But I suppose there has also been a lot of 'room upwards'. In a small country like the Netherlands there are already about 2750 train pairs per day, and in India even more than 6000.


That's comparing apples to oranges. Chinese cities have far more extensive subway systems and people don't commute far and hence won't be likely to use regional trains, which drives a lot of the European figures.

China's slow trains are typically for cheap intercity travel for the migrants and lower classes. This is also why despite significant growth in CRH lines and services, the traditional slow trains cannot be axed too much for fear of upsetting the rural poor.


----------



## flankerjun

Grunnen said:


> ^^ Interesting. That's really a quick growth. But I suppose there has also been a lot of 'room upwards'. In a small country like the Netherlands there are already about 2750 train pairs per day, and in India even more than 6000.


in China,1 pair train maybe means this train will run more than 3000km


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> That's comparing apples to oranges. Chinese cities have far more extensive subway systems


No, they don´t.
Netherlands has 17 million people on 41 500 square km.
And 2 cities with subway systems: Rotterdam and Amsterdam.
Hebei has 73 million people on 188 000 square km.
And no cities with metro systems!
In proportion, not only Shijiazhuang, but most prefecture level cities of Hebei should have metro systems. None of them do.


hkskyline said:


> and people don't commute far and hence won't be likely to use regional trains, which drives a lot of the European figures.
> 
> China's slow trains are typically for cheap intercity travel for the migrants and lower classes. This is also why despite significant growth in CRH lines and services, the traditional slow trains cannot be axed too much for fear of upsetting the rural poor.


But the problem is, they aren´t "axed too much" implying they ARE axed some. They certainly are badly neglected, rather than significantly expanded and improved.


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> No, they don´t.
> Netherlands has 17 million people on 41 500 square km.
> And 2 cities with subway systems: Rotterdam and Amsterdam.
> Hebei has 73 million people on 188 000 square km.
> And no cities with metro systems!
> In proportion, not only Shijiazhuang, but most prefecture level cities of Hebei should have metro systems. None of them do.
> 
> But the problem is, they aren´t "axed too much" implying they ARE axed some. They certainly are badly neglected, rather than significantly expanded and improved.


They are building a subway system in Shijiazhuang right now, with the first line opening in a few years. Across the country, there is a subway building spree happening and we see coverage significantly increase in the larger cities such as Beijing and Shanghai. 

Are you implying the people of Hebei live, travel, and work like a high-income country eg. the Netherlands? Why aren't you looking at a national level when comparing the Netherlands against Hebei, a province which represents < 10% of the national population? Are you also saying transport patterns are comparable between these 2 entities?

I don't think China's slow railways are badly neglected or even unsafe. We don't have the frequency and types of accidents that India experiences. Perhaps you can provide some statistics to back yourself up?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> Are you implying the people of Hebei live, travel, and work like a high-income country eg. the Netherlands? Why aren't you looking at a national level when comparing the Netherlands against Hebei, a province which represents < 10% of the national population?


Um, because China us much bigger in area.


hkskyline said:


> Are you also saying transport patterns are comparable between these 2 entities?
> 
> I don't think China's slow railways are badly neglected or even unsafe. We don't have the frequency and types of accidents that India experiences. Perhaps you can provide some statistics to back yourself up?


That statistic we just quoted above. 
China has under 1200 train pairs on slow railways. India has (slightly) smaller poulation, much lower income, and only slow railways, yet over 6000 train pairs.
China´s slow railways may be safe, but they are obviously badly neglected because they are failing to provide service they could and should be providing.


----------



## China Hand

gaoanyu said:


> Maybe I was mistaken. I thought China has been developing its high speed trains for years now, why wouldn't they just use our own technology?


All Chinese HSR is derived from German, French, Spanish, Italian and Japanese tech sharing agreements. This is neither speculation, nor opinion. The only indigenous from the start trainset was scrapped and then sharing agreements began.

Slight modifications are made to all of the train designs, just enough to warrant a patent, and then it is claimed as Made in China.

Those newly imported trainsets will be 'improved' upon soon enough.


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Um, because China us much bigger in area.
> 
> That statistic we just quoted above.
> China has under 1200 train pairs on slow railways. India has (slightly) smaller poulation, much lower income, and only slow railways, yet over 6000 train pairs.
> China´s slow railways may be safe, but they are obviously badly neglected because they are failing to provide service they could and should be providing.


Once again, you are myopically chopping up land areas at random to make comparisons that make little sense.

You also need to consider why India needs so much rail service, albeit at a loss because they can't get pricing right, and prone to accidents. Your superficial "analysis" fails to take into consideration several blaring points :

1. Indian cities have very small subway systems relative to their size and passengers rely on rail transport to get around.
2. China has a far better highway network compared to India, so buses can effectively compete with cheap / slow rail.
3. In general, China has far better transport infrastructure than India, so the fact that India may run more train pairs than China is not indicative of which one is better. It just shows India relies on trains more than China.
4. Suburban rail in Mumbai, which is used by commuters, is operated by Indian Railways, while Chinese subway networks are not part of the national intercity train system (eg. K, Z, C, D, G trains). So you can't compare train schedules directly between the 2.


----------



## Grunnen

flankerjun said:


> in China,1 pair train maybe means this train will run more than 3000km


Hmm that's true.
This summer I was in Taiyuan and we did a day trip to Pingyao. It's only 1,5 hours by train and there are more than 10 trains per day - but almost all of those trains are trains with sleeper cars running over long distances. If you'd cut up those services in smaller regional shuttle trains, the number of train pairs would increase a lot.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> Once again, you are myopically chopping up land areas at random to make comparisons that make little sense.


No, making a lot of sense.


hkskyline said:


> 2. China has a far better highway network compared to India, so buses can effectively compete with cheap / slow rail.


And China does not have good enough rail network that it could effectively compete with buses.


hkskyline said:


> 3. In general, China has far better transport infrastructure than India, so the fact that India may run more train pairs than China is not indicative of which one is better. It just shows India relies on trains more than China.


But China does not have good enough train infrastructure that people could rely on trains.
Pingyao is a good example.
Pingyao-Beijing by slow train is at least 676 km, takes at least 8:41 (K610) and costs at least 93 yuan hard seat.
Pingyao Ancient Town-Beijing West by CRH is 606 km. By D train it takes 4:13 or 4:23, and costs 183 yuan second class. By G train it takes 3:51 and costs 225 yuan 5 jiao second class.
There may be a lot of migrants from Pingyao who work in Beijing, but even for successful businessmen the 4 hour trip one way is unattractive.
But look at Pingyao-Taiyuan.
Pingyao-Taiyuan by slow train is 108 km. 
Trip times by slow trains are from 1:31 to 1:54. Hard seat cost is 14 yuan 5 jiao or 16 yuan 5 jiao. 
By high speed train, Pingyao Ancient Town to Taiyuan South is 93 km. Trip time is 33 to 47 minutes. Second class seat costs 28 yuan 5 jiao.
Do poor migrants from Pingyao to Taiyuan find the 16 yuan one way ride cheap enough to ride each week? Every day?

Even if people who leave Pingyao and find work in Taiyuan already rather than in Beijing are fewer in number than those who go all the way to Beijing, Shanghai or Shenzhen, they can afford the time and money to go home far more often. They should therefore be much more numerous as train passengers.


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> No, making a lot of sense.
> 
> And China does not have good enough rail network that it could effectively compete with buses.
> 
> But China does not have good enough train infrastructure that people could rely on trains.
> Pingyao is a good example.
> Pingyao-Beijing by slow train is at least 676 km, takes at least 8:41 (K610) and costs at least 93 yuan hard seat.
> Pingyao Ancient Town-Beijing West by CRH is 606 km. By D train it takes 4:13 or 4:23, and costs 183 yuan second class. By G train it takes 3:51 and costs 225 yuan 5 jiao second class.
> There may be a lot of migrants from Pingyao who work in Beijing, but even for successful businessmen the 4 hour trip one way is unattractive.
> But look at Pingyao-Taiyuan.
> Pingyao-Taiyuan by slow train is 108 km.
> Trip times by slow trains are from 1:31 to 1:54. Hard seat cost is 14 yuan 5 jiao or 16 yuan 5 jiao.
> By high speed train, Pingyao Ancient Town to Taiyuan South is 93 km. Trip time is 33 to 47 minutes. Second class seat costs 28 yuan 5 jiao.
> Do poor migrants from Pingyao to Taiyuan find the 16 yuan one way ride cheap enough to ride each week? Every day?
> 
> Even if people who leave Pingyao and find work in Taiyuan already rather than in Beijing are fewer in number than those who go all the way to Beijing, Shanghai or Shenzhen, they can afford the time and money to go home far more often. They should therefore be much more numerous as train passengers.


Actually, the CRH network effectively competes against buses on shorter distance trips, such as Zhengzhou - Kaifeng and Zhengzhou - Luoyang, but the 2 go after different clientele. Buses are considerably cheaper so the lower classes can afford them, while CRH is for middle class and above who are willing to pay a premium. The CRH network should be better compared against airplanes. For the middle class and above, they have a good range of choices between cheap buses, not-so-cheap CRH, and delay-prone airplanes.

You forgot to look at demand. Long-distance commutes in China are not common. It is cheaper to rent in the city of work rather than pay for the long-distance train. Do you have figures as to how many commute from Pingyao daily before concluding train service is inadequate?

You still don't understand China's income profile and why CRH was built for long-distance intercity travel and commutes. 

Poor migrants get housing by the employer. They don't need to commute. They can save the 32 yuan roundtrip.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> Actually, the CRH network effectively competes against buses on shorter distance trips, such as Zhengzhou - Kaifeng and Zhengzhou - Luoyang, but the 2 go after different clientele. Buses are considerably cheaper so the lower classes can afford them, while CRH is for middle class and above who are willing to pay a premium.


Taking Zhengzhou-Kaifeng.
72 km.
I find that D train second class seats are 18 yuan 5 jiao.
Slow train hard seat most 12 yuan 5 jiao, some 10 yuan 5 jiao.
What do buses cost?


hkskyline said:


> The CRH network should be better compared against airplanes. For the middle class and above, they have a good range of choices between cheap buses, not-so-cheap CRH, and delay-prone airplanes.


And airplanes do not compete for short distances.


hkskyline said:


> It is cheaper to rent in the city of work rather than pay for the long-distance train. Do you have figures as to how many commute from Pingyao daily before concluding train service is inadequate?
> 
> Poor migrants get housing by the employer. They don't need to commute. They can save the 32 yuan roundtrip.


Asking again. Do employers provide their cheap workers just dormitory rooms, or housing adequate for wife and children (now two allowed for everybody and their dog) and grandparents, and entitlement to put children to public school and give elder parents medical care in the city?

For a worker in Taiyuan with wife, child and parents back in Pingyao... Would they spend these 32 yuan roundtrip just once a year for New Year, and not get laid for 11 months per year? Or would they go home and get laid more often, like each weekend? It would still be just 140 yuan per month.
Going home every night would be 700 yuan per month, but save the cost of renting the room in Taiyuan.


----------



## easyna

chornedsnorkack said:


> Um, because China us much bigger in area.
> That statistic we just quoted above. China has under 1200 train pairs on slow railways. India has (slightly) smaller poulation, much lower income, and only slow railways, yet over 6000 train pairs.
> China´s slow railways may be safe, but they are obviously badly neglected because they are failing to provide service they could and should be providing.


You should consider also other means of transport. Civil aviation market in India is about 25% of China's so the share of long distance trains in China is lower on the total demand. Neverthless aviation rise almost in the same pace as in India even the competition from HSR system, which is 0 in India.
You need to see holistic view about all transportation system. Have been in both countries and thats huge difference.


----------



## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> Asking again. Do employers provide their cheap workers just dormitory rooms, or housing adequate for wife and children (now two allowed for everybody and their dog) and grandparents, and entitlement to put children to public school and give elder parents medical care in the city?
> 
> For a worker in Taiyuan with wife, child and parents back in Pingyao... Would they spend these 32 yuan roundtrip just once a year for New Year, and not get laid for 11 months per year? Or would they go home and get laid more often, like each weekend? It would still be just 140 yuan per month.
> Going home every night would be 700 yuan per month, but save the cost of renting the room in Taiyuan.


You seriously need to visit China and see how people live rather than asking this weird questions. 

1. Early visits are for people who travel to the coast (Shenzhen, Shanghai etc rather than just the nearest large city. What important here is time needed to take off, companies in China typically don't off vacations (and if they do, people usually don't use it and exchange it for money instead). So your travel time + time together exceed a weekend or a typical holiday break, you will not go back.

2. Entitlement only work well in the places you're registered. Policies differ. A typical government health plan covers 70% of costs he goes to the hospitals in his city of registration, and 30% in the province of registration and 0% outside of the province. If you're outside of your area, you'll need to pay out of pocket or purchase private health insurance. Both of which costs a pretty penny. So unless you have to, you don't move outside of your area of registration.

3. It cost 450 yuan to rent a one bedroom apartment in Taiyuan.

4. There is a express bus service connecting Pingyao and Taiyuan, every 15 minutes. it costs 25 Yuan, and take only 2 hours.


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Taking Zhengzhou-Kaifeng.
> 72 km.
> I find that D train second class seats are 18 yuan 5 jiao.
> Slow train hard seat most 12 yuan 5 jiao, some 10 yuan 5 jiao.
> What do buses cost?


Why aren't you looking at the new C train that goes from Zhengzhou East? Frequencies seem higher. The bus is only 7 yuan, by the way. So clearly the bus and CRH clientele would be different. The migrants can probably afford an occasional ticket, while the middle class gets a choice.



chornedsnorkack said:


> And airplanes do not compete for short distances.


As I said before, the CRH network is designed for long-distance intercity travel, with the first key line being Beijing - Shanghai, where they can effectively compete against airplanes. The network is generally not geared towards short distance travel except in very limited cases such as close city-pairs (Beijing - Tianjin), but these are not for the commuter crowd.



chornedsnorkack said:


> Asking again. Do employers provide their cheap workers just dormitory rooms, or housing adequate for wife and children (now two allowed for everybody and their dog) and grandparents, and entitlement to put children to public school and give elder parents medical care in the city?


Migrants don't bring their kids to cities as they don't have hukou so the family doesn't have access to social benefits, including schooling. Employers provide dormitories, and migrants don't earn enough to realistically rent on their own. This won't change even if migrants' wages go up as it doesn't change the social welfare entitlement.



chornedsnorkack said:


> For a worker in Taiyuan with wife, child and parents back in Pingyao... Would they spend these 32 yuan roundtrip just once a year for New Year, and not get laid for 11 months per year? Or would they go home and get laid more often, like each weekend? It would still be just 140 yuan per month.
> Going home every night would be 700 yuan per month, but save the cost of renting the room in Taiyuan.


Sex life is probably the last thing in these people's minds when their families still lack the basic needs back home. Look again at average migrant income figures and it will be silly to pay 140 yuan on transport for sex with a meagre 2290 yuan monthly income. You still don't see how silly such occasional commute is for the migrant class?

Again, migrants get housing so they are not spending anything on rent. Makes no sense for them to go home on the weekend to "save" on housing.


----------



## Grunnen

luhai said:


> You seriously need to visit China and see how people live rather than asking this weird questions.
> 
> 4. There is a express bus service connecting Pingyao and Taiyuan, every 15 minutes. it costs 25 Yuan, and take only 2 hours.


That means that the train is both cheaper and quicker. Being an electric railway line, the train would also be better for the environment.

So then it would actually make quite a lot of sense to have a frequently running regional express train on this relation, rather than those express buses. The infrastructure is basically already there, as is apparently(!) the demand.


----------



## hamstergogogo

Grunnen said:


> ^^ Interesting. That's really a quick growth. But I suppose there has also been a lot of '*room upwards*'. In a small country like the Netherlands there are already about 2750 train pairs per day, and in India even more than 6000.


There definitely is. But the numbers can be deceiving sometimes and may not be comparable. 

China Railways focuses on medium-long distance transportation. They do offer limited short distance trips but those are almost always intervals on long distance trains. No doubt CR has done a pretty good job in this particular market especially after HSR is introduced. In 2014, CR transported 2.3 billion passengers, only 1/3-1/4 of Indian Railways' 8.4 billion, but the passenger-km of CR is 1160.4 billion, which is the same as IR's 1110.0 billion. CR has long been complaining about its clogged systems, now HSRs finally liberate it. Most of the added CRH trains are still targeted at this market.

That short-medium distance market has been dominated by intercity buses thanks to the expressway boom and rural highway extension. The intercity buses transported 19 billion passengers with 1208 billion passenger-km in 2014 (more passengers but same passenger-km compared to railways). So average mileage per trip per person is about 60km by intercity bus and 500km by train. However, HSRs have successfully grabbed some share from intercity buses, and with more ICLs under consideration, more trains such as CRH6 will be added and this might boost CR's statistics quite a lot too. 

Commuting in China normally occurs only within cities. We do see people commute on intercity HSRs but it's limited. The cities are building rapid transport systems like crazy which are completely independent of CR, but they can not build any commuter rails unless CR completely loses its current control on commuter rails. This is not a major target market for CR or CRH in the conceivable future. Although this part of traffic has been growing at an explosive pace, it will not contribute to CR's statistics book.

In short, the number of trains in service will definitely keep increasing rapidly but commuter trains will still remain scarce.


----------



## hamstergogogo

Grunnen said:


> So then it would actually make quite a lot of sense to have a frequently running regional express train on this relation, rather than those express buses. The infrastructure is basically already there, as is apparently(!) the demand.


It's not possible to add more regional trains on the old line since it is part of a heavily-used long distance line, as it will significantly affect the overall efficiency.

Pingyao is also on Datong-Xi'an HSR. The Taiyuan-Xi'an part began service in July last year and currently there are about 15 pairs of D/G trains connecting Taiyuan and Pingyao daily, so that will meet some of the demand.


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## chornedsnorkack

hamstergogogo said:


> That short-medium distance market has been dominated by intercity buses thanks to the expressway boom and rural highway extension.


How many rural branch railway lines have been built recently?


hamstergogogo said:


> Commuting in China normally occurs only within cities. We do see people commute on intercity HSRs but it's limited. The cities are building rapid transport systems like crazy which are completely independent of CR, but they can not build any commuter rails unless CR completely loses its current control on commuter rails. This is not a major target market for CR or CRH in the conceivable future.


Which means that short distance intercity commuter rail is being neglected.


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## ccdk

*call this "special livery"? ;-) *
- Our Prime Minister Li Keqiang, aka. HSR super salesman, takes leaders of 16 central and eastern European countries on a HSR ride from Suzhou to Shanghai
http://news.6park.com/newspark/index.php?app=news&act=view&nid=133186


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## Silly_Walks

ccdk said:


>


^^
:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## hkskyline

^ For the 4th Summit of China and Central and Eastern European Countries (CEECs)?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

luhai said:


> 1. Early visits are for people who travel to the coast (Shenzhen, Shanghai etc rather than just the nearest large city. What important here is time needed to take off, companies in China typically don't off vacations (and if they do, people usually don't use it and exchange it for money instead). So your travel time + time together exceed a weekend or a typical holiday break, you will not go back.


Agreed. I´ve been saying it all the time.
I argue that a lot of people do travel to nearby large cities. And they could afford the time to go home and back in a weekend.


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## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Agreed. I´ve been saying it all the time.
> I argue that a lot of people do travel to nearby large cities. And they could afford the time to go home and back in a weekend.


Not the migrants, and only some of the better-off middle class or above. But you need to show the income figures to prove affordability.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

luhai said:


> What important here is time needed to take off, companies in China typically don't off vacations (and if they do, people usually don't use it and exchange it for money instead). So your travel time + time together exceed a weekend or a typical holiday break, you will not go back.
> 
> 2. Entitlement only work well in the places you're registered. Policies differ. A typical government health plan covers 70% of costs he goes to the hospitals in his city of registration, and 30% in the province of registration and 0% outside of the province. If you're outside of your area, you'll need to pay out of pocket or purchase private health insurance. Both of which costs a pretty penny. So unless you have to, you don't move outside of your area of registration.


In other words, it is not just the actual distance nor travel time that favours people migrating short distance. It is also the location and level of administrative boundaries. Someone whose home is in Huaqiao, right across the border of Shanghai, 30 km from central Shanghai and 60 km from central Suzhou, is better off finding a job in central Suzhou, same prefecture level city, than walking across the border to a different province where he has no health coverage.
Also, someone from Kunshan has more rights in Xuzhou (still Jiangsu province) than across the border in Shanghai.

Sum: a lot of people would be expected to migrate short distances, like to a nearby midsized city.


----------



## dobrija

serbian pm next to chinese


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> In other words, it is not just the actual distance nor travel time that favours people migrating short distance. It is also the location and level of administrative boundaries. Someone whose home is in Huaqiao, right across the border of Shanghai, 30 km from central Shanghai and 60 km from central Suzhou, is better off finding a job in central Suzhou, same prefecture level city, than walking across the border to a different province where he has no health coverage.
> Also, someone from Kunshan has more rights in Xuzhou (still Jiangsu province) than across the border in Shanghai.
> 
> Sum: a lot of people would be expected to migrate short distances, like to a nearby midsized city.


The migrant population refers to those from the impoverished countryside, not people living in richer cities that move around the country from rich city A to rich city B.


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/asia/hainan-high-speed-line-goes-full-circle.html?channel=540
> 
> *Hainan Island high-speed line goes full circle*
> Friday, November 27, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _THE construction of a high-speed line encircling Hainan reached a key milestone on November 26 when the first test train ran on the 344km Western High-Speed Ring Railway, completing the 652km loop around the Chinese island_
> 
> Construction began on the Yuan 27bn ($US 4.23bn) project in September 2013 and the 344km line is due to open next month, linking the provincial capital Haikou with Sanya, a popular tourist destination in the south of the island. The line has a design speed of 200km/h
> 
> ...


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## Silly_Walks

What type of service will they have on the line? Will they have a continuous circle line, such as Beijing's Metro lines 2 and 10, or will there be termini?


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## sponge_bob

hkskyline said:


> The CRH network should be better compared against airplanes.


Exactly.



> You still don't understand China's income profile and why CRH was built for long-distance intercity travel and commutes.


AVERAGE migrants got home once a year ( at CHINESE new year) on a slow train...we are talking 2006 or 2007 here. It took days there and back.

AVERAGE migrants pay is twice ( or more) as high as it was then and the HSR network PLUS the higher pay means they might go home twice a year now, once at New Year and one other time in summer. 

Importantly the migrant will be there and back in a few days with some time at home nowadays. 

HSR ridership is very high on some routes, the official pretence that the trains are 'Chinese' rather than the European and Japanese knockoffs they are has made the Chinese very proud of 'their' trains and very supportive of the rail business. 

The alternative for many is a 'foreign' plane which might not be much faster unless the trip is over 1000km and might not be much cheaper than HSR either.


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## skyridgeline

Silly_Walks said:


> *What type of service *will they have on the line? Will they have a continuous circle line, such as Beijing's Metro lines 2 and 10, or will there be termini?


Leisure :lol:?

dailymail.co.uk


----------



## hkskyline

*China to spend $438b on new rails over the next five years*
Updated: 2015-11-27 
China Daily _Excerpt_

China sets to invest a total of at least 2.8 trillion yuan ($438 billion) in railway construction during the 13th Five-Year Plan period (2016-2020), reported Economic Information Daily.

National railway network will grow by more than 23,000 kilometers over the next five years, with intercity projects and ones in Midwest regions being priority, said the newspaper citing people familiar with the matter.

China's railway construction has been on a fast track, as the country saw the annual investment surge by 11.3 percent from 580 billion yuan in 2011 to 800 billion yuan in 2014.

During the 12th Five-Year Plan period, China spent a combined 3.47 trillion yuan on new rails, exceeding the original target of 2.8 trillion yuan by far, according to the newspaper.

High-speed railway remains as one of the key infrastructure projects, according to the 13th Five-Year plans released by local governments.

Projects that are expected to be underway include lines from Yinchuan to Lanzhou, Baotou to Xi'an, Chongqing and Guiyang, Datong to Taiyuan and Zhanjiang, and Xiamen to Changsha and Chongqing.

Beijing plans to expand its suburb rail lines by 800 kilometers, and urban transits by 900 kilometers, according to its 13th Five-Year Plan proposal.


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## dbhaskar

Great to see more focus on western regions in the next five years. For continued growth, it is important to close the gap between western/inland regions and east coast. 

As economy grows and livelihoods improve, violence and fundamentalism should decrease in far western regions. I hope that in about 2 or 3 decades from now Urumqi will be a transport and trading hub driving the revitalization of former USSR and Central Asian states.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

luhai said:


> A typical government health plan covers 70% of costs he goes to the hospitals in his city of registration, and 30% in the province of registration
> 
> 3. It cost 450 yuan to rent a one bedroom apartment in Taiyuan.


So, a daily commute to Taiyuan would avoid the rental cost if one way ticket cost is 10 yuan or less, correct? 22 workdays per month, so 44 trips.
Train number 4611 has 6 stops between Taiyuan and Jiexiu, 139 km distance (And actually terminates in Jiexiu).
Of which Taiyuan South, 8 km from Taiyuan, is in Taiyuan City. But the next station, just 27 km from Taiyuan, is Yuci - and that´s already intercity, in city of Jinzhong, Yuci District.
Taigu Station, 63 km from Taiyuan, is in Taigu County
Qixian Station, 86 km from Taiyuan, is in Qi County
Pingyao Station, 108 km from Taiyuan, is in Pingyao County
Zhanglan Station is 119 km from Taiyuan
Jiexiu Station is in Jiexiu County Level City.
So... does it make sense to commute by train between Yuci and Taiyuan at least?


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## dbhaskar

While the original technology is not Chinese, the trains are manufactured, maintained and adapted for climate in China. The infrastructure is Chinese and it employs a significant number of high skill well-paid Chinese workers. I think this in itself is a good enough reason to be "proud". Furthermore, the system functions at a scale not seen in other countries. 

I think there are many tangible and intangible attributes that make a high-speed rail system desirable:

> Eco-friendly: Increasingly, this is in itself a good reason to choose HSR over air transport.

> Ability to move more luggage/cargo: I have personally benefited from this. While attending a tech conference, I was able to carry a lot of hardware that would cause problems in air travel.

> Ancillary services: Better wi-fi, power outlets, cellular service throughout, less waiting time (no de-icing, less security hassle), more legroom, more customer service, etc.

> Desire for upward social mobility: This is often ignored, but I think it plays an important role. While it is true that many migrant workers etc. cannot afford to travel in HSR today, it nevertheless evokes a desire in many to be successful and motivates technological progress.

I don't think HSR is wasted effort and it will be consigned to history books like the Concorde. It is here to stay. Since building a network takes time and considerable investment, it is better to start now (even if many cannot afford it) rather than waiting too late when land/labor is too expensive or cost of relocation is too high.


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## chornedsnorkack

dimlys1994 said:


> From Rail Journal:


About that Hainan - the bigger obvious missing link is the one between Guangzhou and Haian.
Are there any plans for a Guangzhou-Maoming-Zhanjiang-Haian high speed railway?


----------



## ccdk

*China wants to build a high-speed rail link to a newly open Iran*
http://qz.com/557009/chinas-next-big-idea-is-a-high-speed-railway-to-iran/

China Railway, the state-owned rail-building behemoth, has proposed a high-speed rail link that will carry both passengers and cargo between China and Iran, according to the state-controlled China Daily.









http://www.globalconstructionreview.com/news/china-proposes-high-speed-r8a8i8l-link-direct/

The proposed route, put forward last week at a meeting of the China Civil Engineering Society, would take advantage of the easing of global sanctions against Iran, while also bring Iran closer in to China’s widening economic orbit.

China’s economic influence has been expanding along with president Xi Jinping’s efforts to install a large-scale infrastructure network that connects economies as far apart as Southeast Asia and Western Europe. This is essentially aimed at increasing cross-border trade but, handily, the network puts China at the center of the newly imagined trade map.
The most recently proposed route would begin in Urumqi, the capital of China’s western Xinjiang province, and end in Tehran, the Iranian capital some 3,200 km (2,000 miles) away. Along the way it would stop in Kazakstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan:
The route of the proposed China-Iran railway.

Central Asia already has rail infrastructure that can move goods between China and the region, but a major problem is that Central Asian countries use a different width of track than China and most of the rest of the world. That means goods can be transported across borders, but that trains must wait for days on certain crossings to change their gauges.
China’s plan is to build a single rail line that relies on a uniform gauge along the whole route. That would cut down the time needed to transport goods and increase the route’s competitiveness against ocean freight alternatives. The trains themselves would run at up to 300 km per hour (185 miles per hour) for passenger trains and 120 km/h for freight trains.

China is not the only country making grand plans for Iran’s soon-to-be liberated economy. Aerospace giant Boeing has discussed its intention to open an office in Tehran once sanctions are lifted, and one unnamed German company has already agreed to build solar power powers in Iran, according to Bloomberg. Oil majors have long been talking with Iran’s oil ministry; it’s conceivable that China’s proposed rail link could also be put to use exporting Iranian oil.

But while the government in Beijing has a strong reputation for getting things done at home, it has a less-than-stellar record of completion when it comes to international projects. Recently, local governments have scrapped a hydro-power project in Myanmar and a high-speed rail link in Mexico, to name just two.

One analyst told the China Daily that a project such as the rail route to Tehran could suffer the same fate as those above, due to geopolitics out of China’s control. But while projects in other nations are nice-to-haves, routes that connect to China directly, such as the proposed line to Iran, are generally seen as key strategic goals for Beijing.

That’s partly because the other side of China’s great rail plans involve expanding the network through Southeast Asia, to countries as far as Laos, Thailand, and Malaysia. Another even more fantastic idea is a rail line from Beijing to the continental US. Should such train routes prove successful, China will have placed itself right at the center of a very significant network.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

ccdk said:


> China’s plan is to build a single rail line that relies on a uniform gauge along the whole route. That would cut down the time needed to transport goods and increase the route’s competitiveness against ocean freight alternatives. The trains themselves would run at up to 300 km per hour (185 miles per hour)


And then it´s just 200 km/h Urumqi to Lanzhou. Where the railway stops dead.


ccdk said:


> for passenger trains and 120 km/h for freight trains.


How do the 300 km/h passenger trains pass the 120 km/h freight trains?


----------



## sponge_bob

chornedsnorkack said:


> Urumqi to Lanzhou
> 
> How do the 300 km/h passenger trains pass the 120 km/h freight trains?


Entirely new HSR is built from Urumqi to Lanzhou with the worlds highest HSR tunnels.They would share share west of this section only where your problem will occur. There is talk of continuing from Urumqi into Kazakhstan with new HSR tracks.


----------



## tjrgx

chornedsnorkack said:


> About that Hainan - the bigger obvious missing link is the one between Guangzhou and Haian.
> Are there any plans for a Guangzhou-Maoming-Zhanjiang-Haian high speed railway?


not in the near term, as there are national security concerns on Hainan Strait tunnel/bridge, but Guangzhou-Maoming is already under construction (open in 2017-18), Maoming-Zhanjiang section already finished


----------



## tjrgx

*US$438bn rail spend in Chinese 13th five-year plan*

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/policy/single-view/view/28tr-yuan-rail-spend-in-chinese-five-year-plan.html

CHINA: Proposals for a total investment of 2·8tr yuan (US$438bn) in new railway construction have been included in the country’s 13th Five Year Plan covering the 2016-20 period, the Economic Information Daily announced on November 27.

More than 23 000 km of new line would be constructed, with priority going to inter-city rail networks serving the main conurbations and routes to open up the mid-western provinces. Around 250bn yuan is to be invested in 4 600 km of new line serving Shaanxi province, while a further 160bn is envisaged to add 1 374 km in Fujian.

Further high speed routes are envisaged to complement the expanding network of Passenger-Dedicated Lines, including links from Yinchuan to Lanzhou, Baotou to Xi'an, Chongqing and Guiyang, Datong to Taiyuan and Zhanjiang, and Xiamen to Changsha and Chongqing.

Urban railway expansion in the Beijing – Tianjin – Hebei conurbation is expected to add no less than 1 700 route-km over the five year period, including 800 km of metro and 900 km of suburban railways. Beijing’s Municipal Transport Commission recently adopted a long-term plan for the development of a ‘one-hour transport grid’ radiating up to 70 km from the capital. This envisages the construction of 23 new railways totalling 3 453 km by 2050, of which eight routes totalling 1 012 km are to be completed by 2020.

The proposed national railway investment over the next five years is similar to the 2·8tr yuan target set for 2011-15 in the 12th Five-Year Plan. However, following a State Council decision to increase rail spending as an economic stimulus, actual spending in that plan period is now expected to total almost 3·5tr yuan. In the current year Chinese spending on new railway construction is expected to reach 800bn yuan, having increased by 11·3% per annum from the 580bn spent in 2011. This year is due to see around 8 000 km of new line put into service with the culmination of various projects in the 12th plan.

In conjunction with the ‘Belt & Road Initiative’ to improve connectivity between Asia, Europe and Africa, announced earlier this year, the five-year plan sets specific targets for Chinese exports of railway technologies and products. By 2020 exports for the high speed, conventional and metro sectors expected to account for more than 30% of total railway equipment sales exceeding 650bn yuan, and for 15% of railway-related services.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Sunfuns said:


> There was a long discussion here with many posters claiming that China doesn't need a commuter rail network. Beijing government at least doesn't agree:
> 
> _Beijing’s Municipal Transport Commission recently adopted a long-term plan for the development of a ‘one-hour transport grid’ radiating up to 70 km from the capital. This envisages the construction of 23 new railways totalling 3 453 km by 2050, of which eight routes totalling 1 012 km are to be completed by 2020._
> 
> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...uan-rail-spend-in-chinese-five-year-plan.html


8 lines totalling 1012 km, Meaning average 126 km per line.
Does anyone have a list of these 8?


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## hkskyline

Need to distinguish which ones are slow trains, subway lines, and CRH lines.


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## chornedsnorkack

tjrgx said:


> not in the near term, as there are national security concerns on Hainan Strait tunnel/bridge,


Even if railway does not cross the strait, it would be useful to ride CRH all the way to ferry port in Haian rather than have to connect to a local train in Zhanjiang.


----------



## ccdk

http://www.china-railway.com.cn/xwdt/tpxw/201512/t20151201_52177.html


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## ccdk

*From 2016, >60% passengers trains will be D or C trains*
http://www.china-railway.com.cn/xwdt/mtktl/201511/t20151124_52050.html


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## Norge78

Any news about the opening of the Chengdu-Chongqing HSR? Thx


----------



## tjrgx

Norge78 said:


> Any news about the opening of the Chengdu-Chongqing HSR? Thx


open before Jan 10th 2016 as the latest


----------



## hkskyline

Untitled by Simon Desmarais, on Flickr


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## ccdk

all cities connected by HSR by 2020 in Guangdong province (Pearl River Delta region)
in Mandarin: http://house.baidu.com/gz/scan/0/6077969772501582078/?utm_campaign=baidu_xinwen_fcdt

black lines: under construction
red lines: construction commences in the near future
blue lines: planned lines
green lines: long-term plans
(apologies if there are misinterpretation as the picture gets really vague when zoomed so difficult to read these notes)


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## chornedsnorkack

ccdk said:


> all cities connected by HSR by 2020 in Guangdong province (Pearl River Delta region)
> in Mandarin: http://house.baidu.com/gz/scan/0/6077969772501582078/?utm_campaign=baidu_xinwen_fcdt
> 
> black lines: under construction
> red lines: construction commences in the near future
> blue lines: planned lines
> green lines: long-term plans


What is the colour of lines now in service?


----------



## prangar

Hey! Do you know some great promo videos for China's HSR system?

Thanks, prangar
ps.: It would be for people who are completely unaware of HSR's current status in China. Language doesn't matter, I just want to impress.


----------



## stoneybee

prangar said:


> Hey! Do you know some great promo videos for China's HSR system?
> 
> Thanks, prangar
> ps.: It would be for people who are completely unaware of HSR's current status in China. Language doesn't matter, I just want to impress.


Well, not sure what your internet access is like but here are three. Although a bit dated but I believe still represent the best promotional videos on Chinese HSR that one can find on the Internet.

The last one could be a bit difficult to watch as it tend to load very slowly but it gives you a better perspective on the manufacturing/technological capability of the Chinese company that makes the trains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43yWhj2th_E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0pvxKMNBpE&list=PLNA9PPcel3gQ02CyTYAB_cUfM7kDLva8C

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzMwOTgyOTcy.html

The added beauty is that they all have English Subtitle. Enjoy!


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## Sopomon

prangar said:


> Hey! Do you know some great promo videos for China's HSR system?
> 
> Thanks, prangar
> ps.: It would be for people who are completely unaware of HSR's current status in China. Language doesn't matter, I just want to impress.


Don't you worry, I can assure you that this forum is acutely aware of its status.


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## hmmwv

chornedsnorkack said:


> Even if railway does not cross the strait, it would be useful to ride CRH all the way to ferry port in Haian rather than have to connect to a local train in Zhanjiang.


I agree, also add fast (>30kt) passenger ferry service so passengers can quickly connect to Hainan West Ring HSR to their final destination. Preferably the ferry service schedule is matched with CRH's.


----------



## ccdk

Norge78 said:


> Any news about the opening of the Chengdu-Chongqing HSR? Thx


Currently in trial operation, official commencement date is NOT accounced yet.
source in Mandarin: http://sc.sina.com.cn/news/m/2015-12-03/detail-ifxmifzc0760600.shtml

But CRH380D trainsits are in place, and here are some pics:



















































































































































































http://sc.sina.com.cn/news/m/2015-12-04/detail-ifxmifzc0803637.shtml


----------



## gowallstmichael

*New high-speed railway to open in eastern China*
Updated: 2015-12-05 20:11
(Xinhua)

BEIJING - A new high-speed railway will open on Sunday in eastern China to boost regional traffic in the booming Yangtze River Delta, according to China Railway Corporation (CRC).
It will link *Nanjing*, capital of Jiangsu province, and *Anqing* in Anhui province, cutting the rail travel time from nearly six hours to about two.
It will extend 257 kilometers with ten stations. The train will run at a speed of 200 kilometers per hour at the initial stage. The project broke ground in April 2009 and started trial operation in August this year.
The new railway is expected to boost regional integration in the Yangtze River Delta and the economic development in Jiangsu and Anhui provinces, according to the CRC.


----------



## prangar

Thanks for your reply. The first two videos are really good, these are excellent for my purposes.

However I couldn't manage to watch the youku one, or almost any youku video for that matter (maybe 1 in 10 does play, there are probably geographical restrictions), but it's kind of off-topic here, I try to find a solution in the pertinent forums.



stoneybee said:


> Well, not sure what your internet access is like but here are three. Although a bit dated but I believe still represent the best promotional videos on Chinese HSR that one can find on the Internet.
> 
> The last one could be a bit difficult to watch as it tend to load very slowly but it gives you a better perspective on the manufacturing/technological capability of the Chinese company that makes the trains.
> 
> <links>
> 
> The added beauty is that they all have English Subtitle. Enjoy!


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## gowallstmichael

prangar said:


> Thanks for your reply. The first two videos are really good, these are excellent for my purposes.
> 
> However I couldn't manage to watch the youku one, or almost any youku video for that matter (maybe 1 in 10 does play, there are probably geographical restrictions), but it's kind of off-topic here, I try to find a solution in the pertinent forums.


Outside mainland China you can not watch youku videos. However, you can use VPN to help you achieve this aim.


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## gowallstmichael

allanni said:


> I'm planning to take China high speed train early next year.


You had better not take a trip in China during the Spring Festival Travel Period unless necessary.:lol:
Imagining the crowd...haha
Wish you lucky!


----------



## stoneybee

Well, not sure whether this video link has been posted here before or whether anyone has seen it.

This is the official "China Standard HSR Trainset" promotional video. It is pretty neat, so enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7IFQUkgchc

I also attached the CRH6 promotional video below for anyone interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyftTGcWii4


----------



## luhai

Zinan said:


> I've heard rumors that China is planning on putting back the old speed limits (from before the Wenzhou crash)
> 
> Can anyone confirm or deny?


Being in the rumor mill for a long time now, the reason is the president of China Railway Construction Corporation and representative make a statement in the March session of China's congress, "most of China's HSR is built for 350 k/m operational speed and have shown to be safe*. However, the speed has reduced in recent year, it is a waste of resources.

http://news.ifeng.com/a/20151015/45064111_0.shtml
http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2015-03-07/080231579018.shtml


在2015年3月全国两会期间，全国政协委员、中铁建总裁赵广发提出，中国很多高铁的规划、设计、建设基本都是按350公里的时速，但近两年降速了，“这是浪费”。

However, there is no statement from China Railway Corporation.


* Ironically, Wenzhou crash occurred on 250 km/h D trains going at 99 km/h.


----------



## Sopomon

> * Ironically, Wenzhou crash occurred on 250 km/h D trains going at 99 km/h.


Which lends credence to the argument that the real reason for the slowdown was that it was uneconomical rather than unsafe to run at those speeds.


----------



## Pansori

Sopomon said:


> Which lends credence to the argument that the real reason for the slowdown was that it was uneconomical rather than unsafe to run at those speeds.


To my best memory the slowdown was announced (or shall we say implied) before the crash anyway. Almost certainly nothing to do with safety but most likely due to reasons such as cost management and reduction of wear and tear of trains and track (where 50km/h indeed make a significant difference).

The main purpose of 350km/h services (as opposed to 300km/h) was to demonstrate that China can sustain services and technology of this kind (i.e. faster trains than elsewhere). It achieved that goal without problems. After that there wasn't much of a need to do that while reasons not to do that were pretty significant.


----------



## sponge_bob

Pansori said:


> most likely due to reasons such as cost management and reduction of wear and tear of trains and track (where 50km/h indeed make a significant difference).
> 
> The main purpose of 350km/h services (as opposed to 300km/h) was to demonstrate that China can sustain services and technology of this kind


I would see a few headline lines like Beijing to Shanghai getting a speed increase, not all of them. China is not quite as short on electricity now as it was back then either. 

I agree with all the above bar those two observations. It was prudent to dial back speeds anyway and probably not driven by the crash itself.


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## flankerjun

Zhengzhou-Xuzhou HSR,construction began on Dec 26,2012,the day that Beijing-Guangzhou line open


hhzz said:


> Zhengzhou-Xuzhou HSR construction in Henan Province,central China.
> 1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------
> xinhuanet


----------



## Neb81

tjrgx said:


> not in the near term, as there are national security concerns on Hainan Strait tunnel/bridge, but Guangzhou-Maoming is already under construction (open in 2017-18), Maoming-Zhanjiang section already finished


Do we know what the concerns are? I always assumed Hainan was a pretty stable area.


----------



## tjrgx

Neb81 said:


> Do we know what the concerns are? I always assumed Hainan was a pretty stable area.


South China Sea is not..... there is Chinese navy presence there in Hainan


----------



## urbanfan89

Neb81 said:


> Do we know what the concerns are? I always assumed Hainan was a pretty stable area.


Sanya is a major naval base, so the railway tunnel is extremely important.


----------



## luhai

Neb81 said:


> Do we know what the concerns are? I always assumed Hainan was a pretty stable area.


China has long refrained from put assets in Hainan because the location is extremely vulnerable to air strikes. (American Carriers, Soviet Bases in Vuetnam, American Bases the Philippines).It's there isn't a lot of infrastructure in Fujian in the oast as well.

However, in the past years, thing has changed. Either China either thinks likelihood of War has decreased or their are more confident about protecting their assets. They has so far put a space port in Hainan, a major naval base there, now this HSR route. So I don't see a bridge being put off due to security concerns, especially consdiering the expensive space port.


----------



## Restless

luhai said:


> China has long refrained from put assets in Hainan because the location is extremely vulnerable to air strikes. (American Carriers, Soviet Bases in Vuetnam, American Bases the Philippines).It's there isn't a lot of infrastructure in Fujian in the oast as well.
> 
> However, in the past years, thing has changed. Either China either thinks likelihood of War has decreased or their are more confident about protecting their assets. They has so far put a space port in Hainan, a major naval base there, now this HSR route. So I don't see a bridge being put off due to security concerns, especially consdiering the expensive space port.


Well, rockets launched closer to the equator at Hainan benefit from a greater speed (and therefore payload) boost when they launch.

And China needs a new naval base anyway as they've been increasing the size of the fleet. Plus China now needs to cover the South China Sea and provide a long-distance presence in the Indian Ocean, so Hainan is the closest major landmass. The ships based there have significant air defence capabilities.

And they've recently built yet another airbase on Hainan as well.

So I'd say it is a combination of better protection for Hainan and greater need for better space capabilities and railway transport. Plus I would say that the risk of a war has reduced, partly because China has become a more fearsome opponent, but which still focuses on economic development as the first priority.


----------



## Restless

Pansori said:


> To my best memory the slowdown was announced (or shall we say implied) before the crash anyway. Almost certainly nothing to do with safety but most likely due to reasons such as cost management and reduction of wear and tear of trains and track (where 50km/h indeed make a significant difference).
> 
> The main purpose of 350km/h services (as opposed to 300km/h) was to demonstrate that China can sustain services and technology of this kind (i.e. faster trains than elsewhere). It achieved that goal without problems. After that there wasn't much of a need to do that while reasons not to do that were pretty significant.


Energy consumption is velocity squared, so going from 300km/h to 350km/h results in a 17% speed increase, but 36% more electricty

And from what I recall, track wear models are based on velocity squared as well.

I also suspect that the speed increase is related to the need to provide more capacity. Aren't the trains getting full now?

And with the speed increase, I reckon it will shave off around 37min from current fastest journey time of 4h48m.


----------



## Pansori

Restless said:


> Energy consumption is velocity squared, so going from 300km/h to 350km/h results in a 17% speed increase, but 36% more electricty
> 
> And from what I recall, track wear models are based on velocity squared as well.
> 
> I also suspect that the speed increase is related to the need to provide more capacity. Aren't the trains getting full now?
> 
> And with the speed increase, I reckon it will shave off around 37min from current fastest journey time of 4h48m.


Speed increase won't improve capacity. Or improve it marginally.

However the boarding procedure in Chinese HSR stations is beyond absurd. It is and will remain the main capacity constraint and bottleneck if no changes will be made.


----------



## Surel

sponge_bob said:


> I would see a few headline lines like Beijing to Shanghai getting a speed increase, not all of them. China is not quite as short on electricity now as it was back then either.
> 
> I agree with all the above bar those two observations. It was prudent to dial back speeds anyway and probably not driven by the crash itself.


They could indeed try to squeeze in some extra super fast direct connections for the extra buck to pay the costs of the extra speed.

But I guess the line capacity won't allow it easily.

Maybe going Maglev seems a better option for those kind of services.


----------



## BEE2

Pansori said:


> To my best memory the slowdown was announced (or shall we say implied) before the crash anyway. Almost certainly nothing to do with safety but most likely due to reasons such as cost management and reduction of wear and tear of trains and track (where 50km/h indeed make a significant difference).
> 
> The main purpose of 350km/h services (as opposed to 300km/h) was to demonstrate that China can sustain services and technology of this kind (i.e. faster trains than elsewhere). It achieved that goal without problems. After that there wasn't much of a need to do that while reasons not to do that were pretty significant.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
There is a rumor saying domestic politics was involved with the speed 
reduction of Chinese HSR.hno:hno:hno:


----------



## flankerjun

CNR Changchun,they produce a train very two days


----------



## luhai

Pansori said:


> Speed increase won't improve capacity. Or improve it marginally.
> 
> However the boarding procedure in Chinese HSR stations is beyond absurd. It is and will remain the main capacity constraint and bottleneck if no changes will be made.


Agreed, the boarding procedure is a holdover from an era where train tickets are a scarce resource and people routinely try to sneak on trains. (Not to fault them, as it was impossible to obtain train tickets due to huge demand for transports.) Well, the problem is train tickets are still a scarce resource now, and if the control are relaxed it's hard to say if the chaos and crowded trains of the 1980s and early 1990s would not return. 


*I remember being about to walk onto the platform without anything, and tickets on only checked on the train itself, there was no one checks ticket on station exits as well*; (1985, I believe) Later, they added ticket checks on station exists, then guests [people without pre-purchased tickets] are required to purchase platform tickets; then only people with tickets are allowed on platforms, which made it impossible to board a train without a ticket, and purchase it later on the train. i.e 补票. (*Remember the problem is not trying to get money from people to pay tickets, but to keep crowd control on the trains so people will not end up in the area between carriages, hallways, luggage rails or worse.*) ; then tickets are check while entering the station itself (I believe it that happen after the Kunming terror attack last year, I believe. Since I didn't need to do that in 2012, but had to in 2015). Perhaps when Chinese people are rich enough, and tickets are easier enough to obtain, there would be no need to gate people to do ticket checks all the times, but just like the ticket checks are gradually increased over a period of 30 years, I don't see the practice and scarcity issue to suddenly go away.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

luhai said:


> Perhaps when Chinese people are rich enough, and tickets are easier enough to obtain, there would be no need to gate people to do ticket checks all the times, but just like the ticket checks are gradually increased over a period of 30 years, I don't see the practice and scarcity issue to suddenly go away.


People getting richer does not diminish demand for travel. What would be needed is actual expansion in the number of train services provided, and seats available.


----------



## Sopomon

^^
Or airline-style demand-management pricing.


----------



## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> People getting richer does not diminish demand for travel. .


 But they would have more alernatives, also perhaps have more flexiable vacation plans rather than crowd around national holidays. People right now would actualy give up their vacation day for more money, perhaps in the future, vacation days to be actually used as vacation days would be more valuable. Additionally, they will be less willing to sleep in the area between carriages, and on luggage rails.




Sopomon said:


> ^^
> Or airline-style demand-management pricing.


I can see that in the future when regular joe can afford to travel at anytime. (perhaps when China becomes a post-industrial society). Right now, if that is done, it would mean the only time people are able to travel, they will be priced out of that opportunity. That's the stuff that will lead to another revolution. The the mad rush, first come first serve system as crappy as it is, have a certain sense of fairness to it.


----------



## Sunfuns

luhai said:


> But they would have more alternatives, also *perhaps have more flexible vacation plans rather than crowd around national holidays.* People right now would actually give up their vacation day for more money, perhaps in the future, vacation days to be actually used as vacation days would be more valuable.


I think that would help, particularly if people could and would take at least 4 weeks per year off.


----------



## luhai

Sunfuns said:


> I think that would help, particularly if people could and would take at least 4 weeks per year off.


A lot people already have that, yet they don't use it. They would trade it for money at end of year. The bottomline is people are still too poor to value time off vs just money.


----------



## Sunfuns

luhai said:


> A lot people already have that, yet they don't use it. *They would trade it for money at end of year.* The bottomline is people are still too poor to value time off vs just money.


Why do most (?) companies allow it? Is it somehow cheaper to give extra money instead of distributing the work to fewer employees temporarily?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

How did Japanese, back in 1964 when they were relatively poor and hardworking, stop people from crowding into Shinkansens without or with paying for tickets?


----------



## foxmulder

chornedsnorkack said:


> How did Japanese, back in 1964 when they were relatively poor and hardworking, stop people from crowding into Shinkansens without or with paying for tickets?



They are so good.


----------



## foxmulder

flankerjun said:


> CNR Changchun,they produce a train very two days


Awesome pictures. This type of production pictures are my favorites. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## The Chemist

Pansori said:


> Speed increase won't improve capacity. Or improve it marginally.
> 
> However the boarding procedure in Chinese HSR stations is beyond absurd. It is and will remain the main capacity constraint and bottleneck if no changes will be made.


What's wrong with the boarding procedure? I was on 6 HSR trips this week alone (Shanghai - Beijing- Panjin - Beijing - Shanghai, Shanghai - Ningbo - Shanghai), and a bunch of other times in the last few months, and I haven't had anything to complain about as far as train boarding goes. How should they be doing it?


----------



## Gusiluz

*Reducing speed limits in China and no relationship with Wenzhou accident*

Posted in this thread over a year ago:



Gusiluz said:


> From Wikipedia (in spanish, sorry, but sources are in english):
> 
> “In April 2011, the new Minister of Railways Sheng Guangzu said that due to corruption, safety may have been compromised on some construction projects and completion dates may have to be pushed back.[44] Sheng announced that all trains in the high speed rail network would operate at a maximum speed of 300 km/h (186 mph) beginning on July 1, 2011
> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4cd5723e-6685-11e0-ac4d-00144feab49a.html?ftcamp=rss#axzz1Jn3JecpQ
> http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9MJ64RO0.htm
> http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90882/7351162.html
> This was in response to concerns over safety, low ridership due to high ticket prices,
> http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-high-speed-rail-dilemma-2011-1
> and high energy usage.
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703983104576262330447308782.html
> On June 13, 2011, the MOR clarified in a press conference that the speed reduction was not due to safety concerns but to offer more affordable tickets for trains at 250 km/h (155 mph) and increase ridership. Higher speed train travel uses greater energy and imposes more wear on expensive machinery. Railway officials lowered the top speed of trains on most lines that were running at 350 km/h (217 mph) to 300 km/h (186 mph)”.
> ..........
> The Wenzhou train collision was July 23, 2011 on a reduced to 200 km/h line.
> ..........
> In China it is commercially circulated to 350 km/h between 01/08/2008 (Beijing-Tianjin) and at least 28/08/2011 (Wuhan-Guangzhou), to my knowledge. From 01/07/2011 was reduced line-to-line speed. CRH2C-2, CRH3C and CRH380A circulated at that speed were.



What I do believe is that the accident may have caused the delay in return to previous peak speed


----------



## Pansori

The Chemist said:


> What's wrong with the boarding procedure? I was on 6 HSR trips this week alone (Shanghai - Beijing- Panjin - Beijing - Shanghai, Shanghai - Ningbo - Shanghai), and a bunch of other times in the last few months, and I haven't had anything to complain about as far as train boarding goes. How should they be doing it?


It doesn't go fast enough and is fundamentally very inefficient with artificial bottlenecks along the way.

I had a chance to take CRH services twice during the Golden week holidays and once they just about managed to complete boarding on time while the other time they didn't and train departed about 8 minutes late having affected other services on the same platform. Staff and passengers seemed very stressed too. It's clearly a very flawed boarding system.

The very fact that they only have 10 or so minutes to let 1200 people through those narrow platform gates shows a fundamental inefficiency of passenger flow handling.

It may be less of a problem during off-peak times or while the demand generally isn't too high on some lines. But once the system will start filling up with more passengers that will result in serious constraints and capacity limitations to the entire operation of the system even if other parts of the chain work perfectly well.


----------



## Neb81

Given the scarcity of seats, could CR introduce double-deck trainsets on CRH routes - or is the loading gauge restricted? Given they went for 3+2 high density seating from the outset, I'm surprised the initial roll-out wasn't for double deck trains, at least on the the trunk routes like Beijing-Shanghai.


----------



## The Chemist

Pansori said:


> It doesn't go fast enough and is fundamentally very inefficient with artificial bottlenecks along the way.
> 
> I had a chance to take CRH services twice during the Golden week holidays and once they just about managed to complete boarding on time while the other time they didn't and train departed about 8 minutes late having affected other services on the same platform. Staff and passengers seemed very stressed too. It's clearly a very flawed boarding system.
> 
> The very fact that they only have 10 or so minutes to let 1200 people through those narrow platform gates shows a fundamental inefficiency of passenger flow handling.
> 
> It may be less of a problem during off-peak times or while the demand generally isn't too high on some lines. But once the system will start filling up with more passengers that will result in serious constraints and capacity limitations to the entire operation of the system even if other parts of the chain work perfectly well.


But Golden Week traffic flows are WAY higher than typical flows, and it'd be very difficult to come up with an efficient way of handling such an enormous passenger load. They do add additional trains as much as they can, but there's only so much they can do. For typical weekly loads, even on the busiest of routes (ex. Shanghai-Beijing) in my experience the current system works just fine. At terminal stations the boarding starts early to make sure there's enough time for everyone to get on. 

I do like the idea of double-deck trains, though - certainly some routes could definitely use the extra capacity, though I'm not sure the trains would have enough power to pull a 16 double-deck car train at HSR speeds.


----------



## Pansori

The Chemist said:


> But Golden Week traffic flows are WAY higher than typical flows, and it'd be very difficult to come up with an efficient way of handling such an enormous passenger load. They do add additional trains as much as they can, but there's only so much they can do. For typical weekly loads, even on the busiest of routes (ex. Shanghai-Beijing) in my experience the current system works just fine. At terminal stations the boarding starts early to make sure there's enough time for everyone to get on.


It's not about additional trains. There are no problems with that. It's about letting 1200 people (or 2 times that if there are TWO 16 coach trains departing from the same isle platform at the same time). It becomes obvious what I mean once you board the train during a busy time. I really don't see what's there not to understand. Many people have to go through a narrow platform gate. That means a bottleneck. It affects capacity.

Don't get me wrong. I do admire and love Chinese HSR system. It's the best in the world. But boarding procedure is just wrong. It's obvious why and I state that based on my personal experience and simply logic of passenger flow management. 1200 people who have to pass through a 4 meter-wide area means capacity issues. Simple as that.

I understand that they do it for a reason: security and behavior of passengers which isn't always great in China. But that is a serious obstruction for an efficient and smooth service. It will have to be changed.


----------



## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> How did Japanese, back in 1964 when they were relatively poor and hardworking, stop people from crowding into Shinkansens without or with paying for tickets?


Japan in 1964 is actually more than twice as wealthy per capita compared to China in 2014, when you take inflation and currency swings into consideration. Though I don't think the difference is that as much as the chart suggest*, China is very much a "third world" country with many "third world" country problems, despite it having a "first world" infrastructure. Like I said before, people need to get wealthier and China still have a long way to go.











*It would be nicer if they had PPP to adjusted international dollar, but unfortunately data does not go back that far. In either case, China is a lot poorer than Japan, even compared to 1960s Japan. Just compare the family in this video vs the family of a typical blue collar worker in China today (remember, the wife of that Japanese Man is a housewife and needs to support 3 kids as well, and typical Chinese families are dual income and need to only support 1 kid.


----------



## flankerjun

*CRH2G, Lanzhou Station*


----------



## flankerjun

*Beijing-Shenyang get ahead of the schedule for 2 years,from 2019 to 2017,*


----------



## Sunfuns

On average China is indeed still poor, but in absolute numbers there are many wealthy people. Swiss economy derives a substantial percentage of income from rich Chinese buying our luxury products. Chinese tourists in Europe aren't rare anymore either. 

And rail infrastructure looks nothing like third world.


----------



## CarlosBlueDragon

flankerjun said:


> *CRH2G, Lanzhou Station*


wow .....:eek2: so beautiful !! kay:kay:


----------



## luhai

Sunfuns said:


> On average China is indeed still poor, but in absolute numbers there are many wealthy people. Swiss economy derives a substantial percentage of income from rich Chinese buying our luxury products. Chinese tourists in Europe aren't rare anymore either.
> 
> And rail infrastructure looks nothing like third world.


Indeed, if swissland opens it doors not just to rich Chinese tourist, but also Chinese economic migrants as well, then you will see the poor people. Migration policy can be a great filter to get rid of the 99% and their problems.

Indeed, China did manage to built many first world infrastructures and some first world industries. Hopefully these investments will be useful in upgrading China's economy, allow China to hike up the value chain and generally people more wealthy in the future.


----------



## Sunfuns

luhai said:


> Indeed, if swissland opens it doors not just to rich Chinese tourist, but also Chinese economic migrants as well, then you will see the poor people. Migration policy can be a great filter to get rid of the 99% and their problems.


It's ok, if I want to see some poor people then I can always take a vacation outside the developed world. :lol:

But seriously just like you we prefer people who come, leave some money and then go to their own homes again. There are some Chinese living here (I know one at work), but very few compared with USA.


----------



## luhai

Sunfuns said:


> Why do most (?) companies allow it? Is it somehow cheaper to give extra money instead of distributing the work to fewer employees temporarily?


Well, the alternative is to let unused vacation expire without compensation. In that case, it is seen as the same as not offering any vacation at all and perceived to have lower quality benefits package (since if someone have 3 weeks of unused vacation, they essentially have almost 1 extra month of pay per year). Some companies are nice enough to offer sponsored company trips as team building events, but those are few in numbers. 

United States actually have a similar problem but as severe as China, which people does not take vacation they accure. And some companies in the US forces employee to burn their vacations by having company shutdowns around Christmas time when business is slow anyways.


----------



## gowallstmichael

Nanning—Baise section(223km，7 stations) of Nanning—Kunming HSR opened on December 11，2015. Operational speed is 200km/h in the near term(designed speed 250km/h).


----------



## kunming tiger

when I see people trying to explain reality from graphs using stats it tells me they have little understanding of reality .

Think of China as a three tier society with a small wealthy elite as the first tier the largest middle class in the world as a second tier the remainder as the third tier, roughly 1%, 20% and 79% or so. How rich the country is depends on where you are, the urban areas are more second world than third and completely third world countries don't need first world transportation systems.

In short people living outside of China little understand the country so resort to abstract data to demonsrrate their knowledge of the place which actually has the opposite effect. 

I often hear people referring to China as a country of poor, uneducated peasants lving on a dollar a day (Those who have never been tp the place) when in reality education in China is mandatory and free up to year nine. Nowhere is education taken more seriously as an instrument of social mobility than in the land of Confucious. At any one time they have more people enrolled at every level of education than any other country. The majoirty of people live in cities not villages and they don't survive on a dollar at day either.

In fairnesss it was much like the former when I first arrived three decades ago, while the reality has changed the perception hasn't. 

" The only real wisdom in the world comes from actual firt hand experience."


----------



## chornedsnorkack

kunming tiger said:


> I often hear people referring to China as a country of poor, uneducated peasants lving on a dollar a day (Those who have never been tp the place) when in reality education in China is mandatory and free up to year nine. Nowhere is education taken more seriously as an instrument of social mobility than in the land of Confucious. At any one time they have more people enrolled at every level of education than any other country.


Is education also free for hukou-less second children and children of migrants?


----------



## BEE2

kunming tiger said:


> when I see people trying to explain reality from graphs using stats it tells me they have little understanding of reality .
> 
> Think of China as a three tier society with a small wealthy elite as the first tier the largest middle class in the world as a second tier the remainder as the third tier, roughly 1%, 20% and 79% or so. How rich the country is depends on where you are, the urban areas are more second world than third and completely third world countries don't need first world transportation systems.
> 
> In short people living outside of China little understand the country so resort to abstract data to demonsrrate their knowledge of the place which actually has the opposite effect.
> 
> I often hear people referring to China as a country of poor, uneducated peasants lving on a dollar a day (Those who have never been tp the place) when in reality education in China is mandatory and free up to year nine. Nowhere is education taken more seriously as an instrument of social mobility than in the land of Confucious. At any one time they have more people enrolled at every level of education than any other country. The majoirty of people live in cities not villages and they don't survive on a dollar at day either.
> 
> In fairnesss it was much like the former when I first arrived three decades ago, while the reality has changed the perception hasn't.
> 
> " The only real wisdom in the world comes from actual firt hand experience."



SEEING IS BELIEVING. :nuts::nuts::nuts:

Let them think what they think.


----------



## Sunfuns

luhai said:


> Well, the alternative is to let unused vacation expire without compensation. In that case, it is seen as the same as not offering any vacation at all and perceived to have lower quality benefits package (since if someone have 3 weeks of unused vacation, they essentially have almost 1 extra month of pay per year). Some companies are nice enough to offer sponsored company trips as team building events, but those are few in numbers.


The other alternative is to force everybody to take their vacations in full. This is what most companies in Switzerland do including mine (I think min 2 weeks is also mandatory by law). So I have 5 weeks off whether I want them or not. I'm not crying about that one. :lol:

As for company trips one Chinese company (forgot which one) recently sponsored a trip to Paris and Nice for their entire workforce of several thousand people. That was a bit funny from our perspective.


----------



## Sunfuns

Another general note: many of us who comment here but don't live in China do have a fair knowledge of the place (much better than the average in the West) from travel, reading and speaking with Chinese abroad. Sure, it's not the same as living somewhere in inland China but remember that outside perspective is sometimes good to have. Difficult to evaluate yourself if you've never been elsewhere. Refers to other countries as well obviously.


----------



## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is education also free for hukou-less second children and children of migrants?


Everyone has hukou in China, even migrant Children. The issue is, their hukou is attach to where they are born and benifits (healthcare and education support) decreased as they move away from their villiage, township, city, province. (I believe after the kast round of reforms, benifits is shared across townships. Which lead to unintended effect of people enroll in better quality schools in urban township proper and had student communte kilometers to go to those schools instead of a school in their villiage.) Similar to how people need to pay out of state tuition, except moving from on place of residence to another is very elaborate and time consuming process. So people either take kids with them and attend private school instead. (they often has lower qualify than publuc schools), or leave the kid behind in the home village or township and attends public school there Those school are free, though some like to change extra activity fees or "donations". Both are illegal, but schools often still do it due to either under funding or just plain corruption.


----------



## luhai

Sunfuns said:


> The other alternative is to force everybody to take their vacations in full. This is what most companies in Switzerland do including mine (I think min 2 weeks is also mandatory by law). So I have 5 weeks off whether I want them or not. I'm not crying about that one. :lol:
> 
> As for company trips one Chinese company (forgot which one) recently sponsored a trip to Paris and Nice for their entire workforce of several thousand people. That was a bit funny from our perspective.


China being China, if government forces people take vacation in full rather take the money. It's very likely people will still work when their are supposed to be on vacation, and will instead take the money under the table (and un taxed).

On the trip to Nice, that's actually more common can you think, though it more often to go to a locaoe in China. (My Aunt's company did take the entire engineering team to Germany (Munich, Berlin, some castles) for free after completetion of a big project, but that's only ~50 people, so it didn't make the news).


----------



## chornedsnorkack

luhai said:


> benifits (healthcare and education support) decreased as they move away from their villiage, township, city, province. (I believe after the kast round of reforms, benifits is shared across townships. Which lead to unintended effect of people enroll in better quality schools in urban township proper and had student communte kilometers to go to those schools instead of a school in their villiage.)


Are any HSR stations well located (and scheduled) to carry significant loads of schoolchildren commuting?


----------



## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> Are any HSR stations well located (and scheduled) to carry significant loads of schoolchildren commuting?


Nope, remember *villages *to *townships*. Many of these only got electricity 20 years ago, and paved roads 10 years ago. the current focus is to get school buses for these children, so they don't have to ride on overloaded tractors and trucks such these. In fact, a few years ago China donated some school buses to Macedonia as part of goodwill diplomacy, and at the same time there was a profile accident of these trucks and there was a huge backlash on the internet saying those bus should've gone to Chinese children instead.



















These are being replace by school buses such as these. 












In case you don't know what a village or township means.

A village looks like this, it typically houses 50 to 200 household that farms the nearby lands. Larger villages will sport an elementary school. Villages governments are informal, and interestingly most are elected by the entire village.










This is a township, it's basically a small town with a single main street that near by villager will gather for market days once or twice a month. It typically has stuff like fertilizer/seed shop, cellphone shop, a small hospital and a middle school. Township is also the lowest level of formal government in China. Some town/townships on in the coastal region often are industrial based, but often specialize in one product. For example, a town that make only socks, millions of them each year and exports them worldwide. 








https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towns_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Townships_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China

Going one level up is rural county seats, which are basically the urban center of a rural county. However, under Chinese definition, these are not considered cities. They will typically have at least one high school, a hub for long distances transportation (typically buses and slow trains), hospital that can offers most services and operations, shopping center with fancier items, some industry for urban employment etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counties_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China










Some county seat can be converted into a city (and the county into a county level city) once they are deemed urbanized, and many of these cities do have HSR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County-level_city

In any case, this is off topic. mods, feel free to move these posts to China sub-forum. However, I feel some basic background knowledge is needed here. Having HSR between a ~50 household village to a ~1500 household township is bit absurd.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

luhai said:


> Nope, remember *villages *to *townships*.
> In case you don't know what a village or township means.
> 
> A village looks like this, it typically houses 50 to 200 household that farms the nearby lands. Larger villages will sport an elementary school.
> 
> This is a township, it's basically a small town with a single main street that near by villager will gather for market days once or twice a month.


No. Villages are in townships, unless they are in towns or subdistricts.
For example, the Municipality of Shanghai consists of 14 districts and 1 county (Chongming)
These consist of 99 subdistricts, 109 towns and 2 townships.
And these consist of 3640 neighbourhoods and 1722 villages.
1722 villages in Shanghai. How do the inhabitants of these villages commute? Like, are stations of Nanxiang North and Anting North located in neighbourhoods, or in villages?
Huaxi is a village, not a neighbourhood. With 50 000 inhabitants. Apparently no rail station, though.


----------



## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> No. Villages are in townships, unless they are in towns or subdistricts.
> For example, the Municipality of Shanghai consists of 14 districts and 1 county (Chongming)
> These consist of 99 subdistricts, 109 towns and 2 townships.
> And these consist of 3640 neighbourhoods and 1722 villages.
> 1722 villages in Shanghai. How do the inhabitants of these villages commute? Like, are stations of Nanxiang North and Anting North located in neighbourhoods, or in villages?
> Huaxi is a village, not a neighbourhood. With 50 000 inhabitants. Apparently no rail station, though.


You need to distinguish political boundaries and the actual township itself. Politically a township includes all villages boundaries (which are typically the villages that goes to market in that township), however the actual market town itself is small. For example, Sanxi township (note: due to the status of google in china, the map label locations are inaccurate vs sat image. In this region, the label is offset ~300 meters to north of its actual location.)  with its market town at Wujiawan/Sanxicun (also note the track field for the school there), and small villages that near by connected a primative roads. Wujiawan/Sanxicun has access to 114 country road, then eventually connects to S103 and then G42. Which mean the farmer in those villages can obtain goods from outside that way and sell it produce there to be transported outside. Also notice, the farms in the area. They are farmer, even though they reside officially in the City of Chongqing, in it Wushan county, 1 of 17. Yet, they do not commute to the city of Chongqing. If they find work in Chongqing (or more likely the county seat of Wushan, Wuxia [also note, the county is the entire blog land in the region, while the county seat is the bit of buildings by the river. same logic applies to the townships] near by), they will go to Chongqing or Wushan and wishes they'll never need to move back. Because to move back, it mean they failed at city life, to move back, it mean they will once again live off the land with their face toward the dusty earth and their backs toward the blazing sun.

---

Urban village of the Shanghai or any urban village is China is an artifact of bad policy in China in handling urban sprawl. The only reason they are called a village and not a neighbourhoods is due to special treatment of rural property rights compared to urban one. (The Urban villages of Beijing is notorious for this in providing ant tribe housing)

----

Huaxi is a village, a special showcase one to be specially. It only have 2000 villager living in a artificial communist paradise. The rest are migrant worker that does not officially reside in the said paradise, and the relationship is no different than the Emiratis of Dubai vs. its foreign workers. It would get a rail station if the Wu dynasty of that rule that village can pull enough strings to make the the showcase even showier, it won't get one if the power-at-be realized the showcase is actually an embarrassment.


------

In any the system in China is different, and how cities are planned and administed are different as well. But Chinese people, their system is normal and ours is weird. I would have a hard time explaining the relationship between Naperville, Du Page Country, The City of Chicago (Chicago vs Cook Country would be fun to explain) and the State of Illinois to my relatives in China. Or how The City of Chicago is a good place to work, to shop and find entertainment, but a terrible place to live and raise children. Or how I could put up with commute an hour and half commuting to Chicago (or the fact that people would actually commute from Indiana, entirely different state*), even though Naperville is actually more expansive to live compare the city itself. Those things are very difficult to explain unless you actually experience it yourself. *Yes there people live in hebei and commute to Beijing or live in Jiangsu and commute to Shanghai, but they do it for entirely different reasons, their prices out of market and force to take that option. Hell, my cousin turned down free company housing in Tongzhou, and would rather actually pay expensive rent to live in inner Beijing.


btw, I think we're really going off topic here, perhaps these should be moved to China urbanization thread.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

luhai said:


> Having HSR between a ~50 household village to a ~1500 household township is bit absurd.


How is "HSR" defined in China?


----------



## tjrgx

chornedsnorkack said:


> How is "HSR" defined in China?


design speed >=250km/h


----------



## chornedsnorkack

tjrgx said:


> design speed >=250km/h


Then yes - HSR at that speed should better have somewhat bigger destinations.
For comparison, stations of Tohoku Shinkansen, operating speed 320 km/h:
Tokyo - 0 - Tokyo city - 13 185 000 - 2188
Ueno - 3,6 - Tokyo city - 13 185 000 - 2188
Omiya - 31,3 - Saitama city - 1 232 000 - 217
Oyama - 80,6 - Oyama city - 166 000 - 172
Utsunomiya - 109,0 - Utsunomiya city - 518 000 - 417
Nasu-Shiobara - 152,4 - Nasushiobara city - 117 000 - 593
Shin-Shirakawa - 178,4 - Nishigo *village* - 19 800 - 192
Koriyama - 213,9 - Koriyama city - 329 000 - 757
Fukushima - 255,1 - Fukushima city - 290 000 - 746
Shiroishi-Zao - 286,2 - Shiroishi city - 35 600 - 286
Sendai - 325,4 - Sendai city - 1 063 000 - 788
Furukawa - 363,8 - Osaki city - 134 000 - 797
Kurikoma-Kogen - 385,7 - Kurihara city - 70 400 - 805
Ichinoseki - 406,3 - Ichinoseki city - 120 000 - 1256
Mizusawa-Esashi - 413,3 - Oshu city - 119 000 - 383
Kitakami - 448,6 - Kitakami city - 93 300 - 438
Shin-Hanamaki - 463,1 - Hanamaki city - 97 600 - 908
Morioka - 496,5 - Morioka city - 299 000 - 886
Iwate-Numakunai - 527,6 - Iwate *town* - 14 100 - 361
Ninohe - 562,2 - Ninohe city - 28 500 - 420
Hachinohe - 593,1 - Hachinohe city - 231 000 - 305
Shichinohe-Towada - 628,2 - Shichinohe *town* - 16 300 - 337
Shin-Aomori - 674,9 - Aomori city - 288 000 - 825

Nishigo is a village. Iwate and Shichinohe are towns but have even smaller populations. And over the 361 square km of Iwate town, how many of the 14 000 inhabitants actually live near Iwate-Numakunai station?


----------



## abcpdo

tjrgx said:


> South China Sea is not..... there is Chinese navy presence there in Hainan


The Chinese navy presence in the South China Sea has nothing to do with stability...


----------



## abcpdo

luhai said:


> Everyone has hukou in China, even migrant Children. The issue is, their hukou is attach to where they are born and benifits (healthcare and education support) decreased as they move away from their villiage, township, city, province. (I believe after the kast round of reforms, benifits is shared across townships. Which lead to unintended effect of people enroll in better quality schools in urban township proper and had student communte kilometers to go to those schools instead of a school in their villiage.) Similar to how people need to pay out of state tuition, except moving from on place of residence to another is very elaborate and time consuming process. So people either take kids with them and attend private school instead. (they often has lower qualify than publuc schools), or leave the kid behind in the home village or township and attends public school there Those school are free, though some like to change extra activity fees or "donations". Both are illegal, but schools often still do it due to either under funding or just plain corruption.


I wouldn't say everyone. Border region disputed populations, "illegal" children in violation of the one child policy (who can't afford fines), etc. obviously don't have hukous. So really they don't exist as far as legality is concerned. IMO the hukou system is designed to keep migrant workers migrating, so 80 million people and their families can't just move to the east provinces and settle down. Has its ethical drawbacks, but benefits the economy.


----------



## tjrgx

*Newly Designed CRH 2E sleeper train start to serve on Beijing-Shanghai Route*

http://news.xinhuanet.com/tech/2015-12/15/c_1117470520.htm (in chinese)

13 sleeping berths can be transformed to seats


----------



## Sunfuns

Chinese system of organising cities, towns and villages is a bit strange to our eyes, but it's not incomprehensible if you invest a bit of time reading about it. 

The American one is weird too with there being no villages at all and even 10 houses being called a town.


----------



## tjrgx

*Zhengzhou Station-Airport Section opened today*

Zhengzhou Station-Airport Section opened today

200kph, part of Zhengzhou-Xuchang HSR

Some trail run pics


----------



## tjrgx

*China's railway construction robust*

China's railway construction robust

http://www.china.org.cn/business/2015-12/31/content_37432012.htm

Investment in China's railways in 2015 is still growing despite an economic slowdown.

China spent 820 billion yuan ($126 billion) on rail projects in 2015 and put more than 9,000 kilometers of new track into operation, meeting its annual targets of 800 billion yuan investment and 8,000 kilometers of new lines, according to China Railway Corporation.

With a newly completed high-speed railway track in the southern Hainan province, China now has 19,000 kilometers of high-speed rail.

The fast growth of railway construction projects came at a time when the country is enduring continuous deceleration in the growth of fixed-asset investment. In the first 11 months of 2015, fixed-asset investment grew 10.2 percent year on year, slowing from 13.9 percent of growth seen at the beginning of this year.

--

New Lines opened in 2015: 9531km
Investment: 823.8bln RMB (128.7bln US dollars)

2011-2015
New Line: ~30500km
Investment:3.58tln RMB (559.3bln US dollars)


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> Ganzhou-Longyan railway(200KM/H,290Km),Wuhan Metro line 3 will open on Dec 28.


There seem to be 4 daily D trains Ganzhou-Longyan. Fastest time 2:00, with 4 stops. Second class 99 yuan, first class 155 yuan 5 jiao.


----------



## Sunfuns

Have any of you counted how many kilometres of HSR have been opened in China this year?


----------



## saiho

dimlys1994 said:


> ^^Excluding Japan, this is the world's only station with platform screen doors:cheers:


No, Meilian Station on the Hainan Eastern Ring High-Speed Railway also has PSDs. Where does Japan have mainline station PSDs?


----------



## Short

chornedsnorkack said:


> The trip time Chengdu-Chongqing seems to be 1:28 nonstop.
> Ticket price second class 154 yuan, first class 246 yuan 5 jiao, business class 462 yuan 5 jiao.


The travel time should reduce slightly once Shapingba station opens in Chonging later this year. This would also reduce congestion at Chongqing North.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

chornedsnorkack said:


> Which is now faster: Hangzhou-Wenzhou via Yiwu, or Hangzhou-Wenzhou via Ningbo?


Hangzhou East-Wenzhou South via Lishui is 337 km. Trip time 2:04 by G9333. Second class 138 yuan, first class 226 yuan, business class 424 yuan.
Hangzhou East-Wenzhou South via Ningbo is 430 km. Trip time 2:31 by G7567. Second class 153 yuan, first class 218 yuan 5 jiao, business class 469 yuan 5 jiao.


----------



## xjtyou

dimlys1994 said:


> ^^Excluding Japan, this is the world's only station with platform screen doors:cheers:


I saw the screen doors at the stations along Guangzhou South -Zhuhai rail.


----------



## Wbnemo1

Hello,
I'm still trying to find a model of the CRH380D. Harmony makes a replica of it in 1:160 scale, my understanding is that it's sold at a train station, I've tried as many of the online retailers as i can find, no one seems to have it or can get it from there vendors. Any help sure would be appreciated, maybe a finders fee would be appropriate here, please help me, not sure where else to turn. I sincerely hope this is the right place to post this
Cheers,
Will


----------



## WdoubleUweb

You can buy the CRH380D on AliExpress online which sell for $480.80 USD with free shipping to USA. Another seller sells it at a 14% discount for $370.49 USD.


----------



## Wbnemo1

don't suppose you have a link, as I can't find it on their site


----------



## WdoubleUweb

Don't have enough post count to include a link. But just Google AliExpress for their websire, then search for CRH380D or CRH380.


----------



## dbhaskar

Wbnemo1 said:


> don't suppose you have a link, as I can't find it on their site


Here you go:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/CRH380-the-three-section-of-the-EMU-the-power-train-model-1-87/32503654115.html?spm=2114.40010708.4.15.V96r2p

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/CRH3...32502458952.html?spm=2114.40010708.4.2.LL6ZNc


----------



## Wbnemo1

well, those links worked, but, unfortunately, that is not the CRH380D, that is the A, thank you for trying for me all the same

Will


----------



## Wbnemo1

the 380D is also known as the Zefiro by Bombardier


----------



## Wbnemo1




----------



## WdoubleUweb

Wbnemo1 said:


> well, those links worked, but, unfortunately, that is not the CRH380D, that is the A, thank you for trying for me all the same
> 
> Will


Found CRH380D on Taobao website, mentions Zefiro 380. It's in Chinese.
Price is 1380 rmb, or $210.93 USD. Not sure about the shipping but I think it's 90rmb/kg from Beijing to US.


----------



## Wbnemo1

So, these are the places i have been trying since june with no success... I even had one of these companies tell me they had it, so i ordered it, only to have them try to switch trains models on me saying they can't get the CRH380D




http://world.taobao.com/item/42237136277.htm?fromSite=main&spm=2014.21554143.0.0

http://www.sgbuy4u.com/taobao/view/id/42237136277

http://www.offerany.com/p-45191595566.html


----------



## Pansori

Wbnemo1 said:


>


I wonder how often those trains are getting washed? Many CRH train photos that we see show dirty trains. Don't they have washing facilities? Are they trying to save on that? Or perhaps there are other reasons?


----------



## tjrgx

Pansori said:


> I wonder how often those trains are getting washed? Many CRH train photos that we see show dirty trains. Don't they have washing facilities? Are they trying to save on that? Or perhaps there are other reasons?


It washes daily

https://www.zhihu.com/question/22653063


----------



## hkskyline

Short said:


> I agree that it is a bad time to travel. I got caught out once on July 1st, because it was the first day of Summer holidays and students were heading home from colleges everywhere, I was forced to stand from Beijing to Shanghai.


Yikes ... they sell standing tickets between Beijing and Shanghai? I thought that was for short shuttle trips only like Beijing - Tianjin.


----------



## Short

hkskyline said:


> Yikes ... they sell standing tickets between Beijing and Shanghai? I thought that was for short shuttle trips only like Beijing - Tianjin.


There are standing tickets for the longest of journeys if all hard seats sell out. That is why some innovative people bring extra fold up stools to sell to other standing customers on long distance journeys, as people try to walk over and around you. Had a standing ticket from Lanzhou to Beijing once but managed to upgrade my ticket once onboard. 

However, my trip in 2010 was so packed, it was literally standing room only. I had the space I stood and that was it, no moving about for anyone. No conductors checked tickets even once and definitely no food trolleys. Was 12 hours of hell, but still enjoyable in that sadistic adventuring way. There was a great camaraderie amongst passengers, with a seeming endless passage of instant noodles and tea urns to be filled with hot water, passed from person to person back and forth without complaint or murmur.

At the end of it, on arrival in Shanghai with no sleep, I simply crashed out for the day in my hotel room. However, it is not as taxing as a 38+ hour hard seat ride which I have also done on a couple of occasions too.


----------



## hkskyline

Short said:


> There are standing tickets for the longest of journeys if all hard seats sell out. That is why some innovative people bring extra fold up stools to sell to other standing customers on long distance journeys, as people try to walk over and around you. Had a standing ticket from Lanzhou to Beijing once but managed to upgrade my ticket once onboard.
> 
> However, my trip in 2010 was so packed, it was literally standing room only. I had the space I stood and that was it, no moving about for anyone. No conductors checked tickets even once and definitely no food trolleys. Was 12 hours of hell, but still enjoyable in that sadistic adventuring way. There was a great camaraderie amongst passengers, with a seeming endless passage of instant noodles and tea urns to be filled with hot water, passed from person to person back and forth without complaint or murmur.
> 
> At the end of it, on arrival in Shanghai with no sleep, I simply crashed out for the day in my hotel room. However, it is not as taxing as a 38+ hour hard seat ride which I have also done on a couple of occasions too.


Oh ... was this a G or D train? I was a bit confused you stood on the high-speed train for such a long journey. If it is a slow train like the K ones then it makes sense.


----------



## Short

hkskyline said:


> Oh ... was this a G or D train? I was a bit confused you stood on the high-speed train for such a long journey. If it is a slow train like the K ones then it makes sense.


Sorry, I did not clarify that. It was a K train from Beijing to Shanghai, basically because I could not get a G or D train (sold out), because I could not buy a ticket until I got to Beijing under the system that was then.

The standing ticket from Lanzhou to Beijing was for a T train.


----------



## Fabb

Short said:


> Personally I use the Ctrip website for all my travel in China and there has been constant improvements for rail travel.
> http://english.ctrip.com


@Short & gowallstmichael, thanks a lot !

I'll do my best to book early. 
I'm looking forward to this trip. I did Guangzhou-Shenzhen once (in 2013), but it wasn't a high speed train.


----------



## doc7austin

According to my knowledge, standing-only tickets are also sold on high speed G and D trains.
This is one of the reasons why you should buy a first class seat in these trains. 
In the second class trains, the aisles are jam-packed by these standing-only passengers. Those pax are not allowed into the first class car.
Moreover, when there are too many people onboard, the trolley food service is not operated.


----------



## CarlosBlueDragon

Short said:


> Personally I use the Ctrip website for all my travel in China and there has been constant improvements for rail travel.
> http://english.ctrip.com


ask you!
*Ctrip website is real or fake??* I feel trouble about it after I read Ctrip website caught in fake ticket scandal about CCTVNews by facebook!! 
hno:


----------



## Short

CarlosBlueDragon said:


> ask you!
> *Ctrip website is real or fake??* I feel trouble about it after I read Ctrip website caught in fake ticket scandal about CCTVNews by facebook!!
> hno:


Trust me, it is a legit website. It is a major huge corporation. It would deal in millions of transactions everyday. So a single incident is not a true reflection on the whole company. Whatever the glitch was that caused the incident in Japan, they were upfront and corrected the problem, the passenger was delayed but never stranded. 

Personally I can vouch for the their call service. They have have always been easy to deal with. The only hassle I have had was when I was trying to circumvent the system, booking into a hotel not registered for Foreigners (had stayed there previously, booked by a local). Ctrip cancelled the booking because I was trying to do the wrong thing but after calling them, they put me in touch directly with the hotel management and acted as a translator to make the booking. So in the end, problem solved.


----------



## Short

News from the State Reform and Development Commission and the Ministry of Transport. Beijing, Hebei and Tianjin are seeking to emulate the national policy of 4 vertical and 4 horizontal high-speed railways for regional travel to be completed by 2050. Some lines are already in operation but with extra infill stations being built, such as the Beijing-Tianjin line. Some of the new lines will serve the new Beijing Daxing Airport, to allow it to act as a central airport for Beijing, Hebei and Tianjin.

4 Vertical North-South lines are:-


Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Handan
Beijing-Bazhou-Hengshui
Qinhuangdao-Tangshan-Tianjin-Huanghua
Chengde-Tianjin-Changzhou

4 Horizontal East-West lines are:-


Beijing-Tianjin-Tanggu
Beijing-Tanshan-Qinhuangdao
Tianjin-Baoding
Shijiazhuang-Changzhou-Huanghua


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Short said:


> Beijing, Hebei and Tianjin are seeking to emulate the national policy of 4 vertical and 4 horizontal high-speed railways for regional travel to be completed by 2050.


That´s a long time...


Short said:


> Some lines are already in operation but with extra infill stations being built, such as the Beijing-Tianjin line. Some of the new lines will serve the new Beijing Daxing Airport, to allow it to act as a central airport for Beijing, Hebei and Tianjin.
> 
> 4 Vertical North-South lines are:-
> 
> 
> Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Handan


Exists, goes on to Shenzhen.


Short said:


> Beijing-Bazhou-Hengshui
> Qinhuangdao-Tangshan-Tianjin-Huanghua
> Chengde-Tianjin-Changzhou


Changzhou is in Jiangsu.


Short said:


> 4 Horizontal East-West lines are:-
> 
> 
> Beijing-Tianjin-Tanggu


Exists.


Short said:


> Beijing-Tanshan-Qinhuangdao
> Tianjin-Baoding


Exists.


Short said:


> Shijiazhuang-Changzhou-Huanghua


----------



## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> That´s a long time...
> 
> Exists, goes on to Shenzhen.
> 
> Changzhou is in Jiangsu.
> 
> Exists.
> 
> Exists.



These are probably additional C lines, which runs on different tracks than long haul system. (Hopefully it will follow a metro like ticketing and boarding process)

I think he means cangzhou, many Chinese people confused c and ch in pinyin.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Note how this is geared to "Hebei"!
Handan is in Hebei. 
It also is 175 km from Shijiazhuang, 237 km from Zhengzhou and 456 km from Beijing.
Look at another direction.
Beijing-Jinan is 406 km.
Jinan is a rather more important city than Handan.
And also just 301 km from Tianjin, which is a rather more important city than Baoding.
Should rail connectivity be improved between Beijing-Tianjin-Jinan, rather than cut it short at Cangzhou?


----------



## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> Note how this is geared to "Hebei"!
> 
> Handan is in Hebei.
> 
> It also is 175 km from Shijiazhuang, 237 km from Zhengzhou and 456 km from Beijing.
> 
> Look at another direction.
> 
> Beijing-Jinan is 406 km.
> 
> Jinan is a rather more important city than Handan.
> 
> And also just 301 km from Tianjin, which is a rather more important city than Baoding.
> 
> Should rail connectivity be improved between Beijing-Tianjin-Jinan, rather than cut it short at Cangzhou?


There more to infrastructure than just geography, politics, history and economics is at play as well. 

Hebei is a much poorer province than shandong, in large part because regional economy is overshandowed by Beijing and tianjin. Jinan and standong is once of the stronger provinces of China, and it will probably do its own thing regarding regional rail, they probably don't want to be sucked into beijing's orbit anyway. 


For a province, hebei is in away crippled, since as Beijing and Tianjin was cut out it, back when the province was known as Zhili, so now its economy is basically a one trick pony in steel making and its capital is literally China's largest village. (Shijiazhuan literally means village of the shi family), so Jingjinji integration we see now is really just recreating the historical Zhili. While shandong has a real local economy with nice deep water ports, famous tourism sites, centers for both light and heavy industry as well a center of finance, additionally standong already have a very nice local highway jetway supporting an extensive intercity bus system that pushing slow trains out of business. Jinan would prefer to be the center of that rather than just peripheral city for beijing, so for it a long haul connection to Beijing make more sense. And perhaps later there will c train running to put up some competition to the intercity buses.



As for Handan, it used to be capital of zhao state and historically a extremely important in northern China way before Jinan, and historically shandong was centered around zibo and xuzhou.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

luhai said:


> Hebei is a much poorer province than shandong, in large part because regional economy is overshandowed by Beijing and tianjin. Jinan and standong is once of the stronger provinces of China, and it will probably do its own thing regarding regional rail, they probably don't want to be sucked into beijing's orbit anyway.


Yes, but for example Wuqiao is much closer to Jinan (140 km by slow speed railway) than to Beijing (355 km by slow speed railway). A good rail connection or several between Beijing and Jinan serving destinations in between could suck parts of Hebei into Jinan´s orbit instead.
Or for example, Dongying is a rich city - oil and port. Is a railway needed between Dongying and Huanghua?


----------



## CarlosBlueDragon

Short said:


> Trust me, it is a legit website. It is a major huge corporation. It would deal in millions of transactions everyday. So a single incident is not a true reflection on the whole company. Whatever the glitch was that caused the incident in Japan, they were upfront and corrected the problem, the passenger was delayed but never stranded.
> 
> Personally I can vouch for the their call service. They have have always been easy to deal with. The only hassle I have had was when I was trying to circumvent the system, booking into a hotel not registered for Foreigners (had stayed there previously, booked by a local). Ctrip cancelled the booking because I was trying to do the wrong thing but after calling them, they put me in touch directly with the hotel management and acted as a translator to make the booking. So in the end, problem solved.


ok!! Thank You, brother!


----------



## CarlosBlueDragon

I want know
From Wuhan Railway Station to Nanjing South Railway Station
timetable?? only G??


----------



## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> Yes, but for example Wuqiao is much closer to Jinan (140 km by slow speed railway) than to Beijing (355 km by slow speed railway). A good rail connection or several between Beijing and Jinan serving destinations in between could suck parts of Hebei into Jinan´s orbit instead.
> Or for example, Dongying is a rich city - oil and port. Is a railway needed between Dongying and Huanghua?



Well, you have be careful in stealing cities across provincial lines, Jiangsu already have problems with Suzhou and wuxi being too closely integrated with shanghai than the rest of the province, (provincial fund allocated to them does nothing in lifting the poorer region of the province) and the constant tension between north and south regarding development priorities. Anhui also has the same problem with Hefei integrates too closely with Jiangsu than the rest of Anhui, despite it being its capital.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

luhai said:


> Anhui also has the same problem with Hefei integrates too closely with Jiangsu than the rest of Anhui, despite it being its capital.


Maanshan is just 42 km from Nanjing South - much closer than Suzhou. Should Wuhu and Tongling integrate with Jiangsu?


----------



## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> Maanshan is just 42 km from Nanjing South - much closer than Suzhou. Should Wuhu and Tongling integrate with Jiangsu?



Then all the richer region of anhui will effectively be jiangsu and zhejiang, and places like fuyang and anqing will be completely screwed.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

luhai said:


> Then all the richer region of anhui will effectively be jiangsu and zhejiang, and places like fuyang and anqing will be completely screwed.


Why is Anqing a terminus of Nanjing-Anqing high speed railway, rather than continue to, say, Jiujiang or Wuhan?


----------



## Short

My mistake, I did mean Cangzhou. Yes, some of the lines are in existence but will see extra infill stations being built (9 proposed new stations between Beijing and Tianjin for example) and a regional fast commuter service installed.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Short said:


> My mistake, I did mean Cangzhou. Yes, some of the lines are in existence but will see extra infill stations being built (9 proposed new stations between Beijing and Tianjin for example) and a regional fast commuter service installed.


On which lines are these 9 stations to be built?
There are 3 lines now between Beijing and Tianjin.
1 is the old line, with stations like Huangcun, Yangcun, Weishanzhuang and Huangtupo.
1 is Beijing-Tianjin intercity line, with 1 existing station (Wuqing) and 2 under construction (Yizhuang and Yongle)
1 is Beijing-Tianjin section of Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway, with 1 existing station (Langfang).
So where do the 9 infill stations and fast commuter services go?


----------



## Short

chornedsnorkack said:


> On which lines are these 9 stations to be built?
> There are 3 lines now between Beijing and Tianjin.
> 1 is the old line, with stations like Huangcun, Yangcun, Weishanzhuang and Huangtupo.
> 1 is Beijing-Tianjin intercity line, with 1 existing station (Wuqing) and 2 under construction (Yizhuang and Yongle)
> 1 is Beijing-Tianjin section of Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway, with 1 existing station (Langfang).
> So where do the 9 infill stations and fast commuter services go?


Actually a newer article has clarified the situation better, it is none of the above and a new additional Beijing-Tianjin Intercity Railway is to be built with nine stations. The difference is the starting point will be Beijing East Railway Station, through Baodi to Tianjin's airport and the Binhai area. So effectively running to the east of the existing Intercity routes.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Meaning there shall be 4 parallel railways Beijing-Tianjin?


----------



## tjrgx

*Nanpanjiang Bridge of Nanning-Kunming Railway Close to Completion*

Bridge of Nanning-Kunming Railway Close to Completion

http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2016-01/15/c_128633717.htm


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...link-for-new-beijing-airport.html?channel=540
> 
> *High-speed rail link for new Beijing airport*
> Friday, January 15, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _CHINA's National Development and Reform Commission has approved plans for the 78.2km Beijing - Bazhou high-speed line, which will serve the city's new international airport at Daxing, 46km south of the capital_
> 
> The line will include four new stations, including an underground station at the airport, and is expected to cost Yuan 27.4bn ($US 4.2bn), including Yuan 800m for rolling stock. Construction is expected to take around three-and-a-half years
> 
> ...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

dimlys1994 said:


> From Rail Journal:


Does the line reach Bazhou West station on Tianjin-Baoding high speed railway?


----------



## Short

chornedsnorkack said:


> Meaning there shall be 4 parallel railways Beijing-Tianjin?


Yes, roughly speaking, although this new line will be upto roughly 70km eastwards of the current Beijing-Tianjin Intercity Railway, serving a completely different area. From Beijing eastwards to Tongzhou and Xianghe, then southwards from Baodi to Tianjin Airport and Binhai. It makes logical sense as part of the announced regional network.

The line will be extended eastward from Baodi to Tangshan, as part of the Beijing-Tangshan Intercity Railway. It will also be extended northward via Pinggu and Miyun as part of the Chengde-Tianjin segment of the announced network.




chornedsnorkack said:


> Does the line reach Bazhou West station on Tianjin-Baoding high speed railway?


It will interchange with that line to allow access from Tianjin and Shijiazhuang to the new airport. This line will be further extended to Hengshui in the future as part of the 4 x 4 regional network.


----------



## Short

The Sixth Plenary Session of the Chengdu Municipal Government has announced that the new Chengdu Tianfu Airport will be connected with High-Speed Rail upon opening in 2019. The new rail terminal will become the third major rail station, together with Chengdu and Chengdu East Railway Stations, with Chengdu South and Chengdu West designated as auxiliary stations. It will form part of an expanded Sichuan regional high-speed rail network, allowing connection to air travel in a similar manner to Shanghai Hongqiao.


----------



## gowallstmichael

> On which lines are these 9 stations to be built?


*New Beijing East Station新北京东站*(former Tongzhou Station), *Yanjiao Station燕郊站*(Hebei), *Xianghe Station香河站*(Hebei), *Dachang Station大厂站*(Hebei), *Baodi South Station宝坻南站*(Tianjin) will be shared by Beijing-Tangshan Railway and Beijing-Tianjin Binhai New District Railway.
*Jingjinxincheng Station京津新城站*(Beijing & Tianjin New Town Station), *Beibuxinqu Station北部新区站*(Northern New District Station),*Binhai Airport Station滨海机场站*, *Binhai Station滨海站(in use)* is on Beijing-Tianjin Binhai New District Railway. *Yahongqiao Station鸦鸿桥站*, *Tangshan Station唐山站(In use)* is on Beijing-Tangshan Railway.

Designed speed: Baodi South-Beibuxinqu 350km/h, Beibuxinqu-Binhai 250km/h.New Beijing East-Baodi South-Tangshan 350km/h.
Beijing - Binhai New District Railway EIA Report(in Chinese)


----------



## ccdk

*More high-speed services to be added in 2016*
http://www.ecns.cn/business/2016/01-11/195335.shtml

China will increase the number of passenger train services by 571 this year, including 563 high-speed services, according to the latest adjustment to the national railways plan.

According to the data released by China Railway Corp on Sunday, *6,284 passenger train services now run every day nationwide, with more than 60 percent of them high-speed.*

The latest adjustment will further increase the capacity of high-speed links between Beijing and Shenyang in Liaoning province, Beijing and Hangzhou in Zhejiang province, and Guiyang in Guizhou province and Shenzhen, among others, chinanews.com reported.

Capacity pressure on regular services will also be relieved by additional express trains, the report added, such as between Shanghai and Shaoguan in Guangdong province, Shenzhen and Luoyang in Henan province, Lanzhou in Gansu province and Hefei in Anhui province.

According to China Railway Corp, the country was forecast to have 18,000 kilometers of high-speed railway in operation by the end of 2015, linking all the cities with populations larger than 500,000.

From January to August, 1.72 billion journeys were made on the rail network.

"In 2014, the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway transported more than 100 million people, with more than 250 trains running every day," Cai Qinghua, former chairman of Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway Corp, was earlier quoted as saying by Shanghai-based The Paper.

"Even that capacity cannot meet demand in peak periods. If demand keeps growing at speed, we may need a second Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway someday," he said.

However, He Huawu, chief engineer for China Railway Corp, dismissed concerns about capacity.

"There is still enough space to improve," he said. "In the near future, the passenger flow will be split by new railway lines; for example, the Beijing-Kowloon line will ease some of the pressure on the Beijing-Guangzhou and Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railways."

In addition, the *Beijing-Shanghai line was designed for speeds of up to 350 kilometers an hour, but now the operating speed is only 250 to 300 km/h.

"We have to calculate the economic feasibility if we increase the speed," he said. "We're collecting data to calculate the additional costs ... and we'll try to figure out an optimal speed that is both economic and meets the increasing demand."*


----------



## chornedsnorkack

ccdk said:


> *More high-speed services to be added in 2016*
> http://www.ecns.cn/business/2016/01-11/195335.shtml
> 
> China will increase the number of passenger train services by 571 this year, including 563 high-speed services, according to the latest adjustment to the national railways plan.


Meaning just 8 slow speed services.


ccdk said:


> According to the data released by China Railway Corp on Sunday, *6,284 passenger train services now run every day nationwide, with more than 60 percent of them high-speed.*
> 
> According to China Railway Corp, the country was forecast to have 18,000 kilometers of high-speed railway in operation by the end of 2015, linking all the cities with populations larger than 500,000.


Kunming is a counterexample.


----------



## Sunfuns

chornedsnorkack said:


> Kunming is a counterexample.


It's probably not the only one if we are going down all the way to half a million. When is Nanning-Kunming HSR scheduled to be finished?


----------



## tjrgx

Sunfuns said:


> It's probably not the only one if we are going down all the way to half a million. When is Nanning-Kunming HSR scheduled to be finished?



Yinchuan.

2016.12


----------



## luhai

Sunfuns said:


> It's probably not the only one if we are going down all the way to half a million. When is Nanning-Kunming HSR scheduled to be finished?



Well hence the use of "was forecasted“ rather than actually complete.


----------



## Sunfuns

luhai said:


> Well hence the use of "was forecasted“ rather than actually complete.


Sure, but the forecast was unrealistic since the date was end of 2015.


----------



## tjrgx

*Aerial view of the brand new Chengdu-Chongqing high speed railway*

Aerial view of the brand new Chengdu-Chongqing high speed railway


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

When is the Kunming Guiyang going to open?


----------



## luhai

Sunfuns said:


> Sure, but the forecast was unrealistic since the date was end of 2015.



At least it's more updated than the original date of 2014 when the project got started.


----------



## gowallstmichael

Sunfuns said:


> It's probably not the only one if we are going down all the way to half a million. When is Nanning-Kunming HSR scheduled to be finished?


*Shanghai-Kunming HSR* Guiyang North-Kunming South Section: at the end of 2016
*Nanning-Kunming HSR* Baise-Kunming South Section：mid 2016


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Are any HSR-s planned to open in Sheep Year?


----------



## Sunfuns

gowallstmichael said:


> *Shanghai-Kunming HSR* Guiyang North-Kunming South Section: at the end of 2016
> *Nanning-Kunming HSR* Baise-Kunming South Section：mid 2016


So just a bit more patience and Kunming will be well connected HSR network.


----------



## tjrgx

*The longest bridge on the Lianyungang Yancheng Railway completes joining*


----------



## xinxingren

ccdk said:


> "In 2014, the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway transported more than 100 million people, with more than 250 trains running every day," Cai Qinghua, former chairman of Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway Corp, was earlier quoted as saying by Shanghai-based The Paper.
> 
> "Even that capacity cannot meet demand in peak periods. If demand keeps growing at speed, we may need a second Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway someday," he said.


Allowing for the "more than"s, taking a crude annual average, that's 1095 passengers per train. Now an old train of mixed YW, YZ, and WZ could take up to twice that number. But since they're stuck with the harmonious design principle of 8/16 cars per HSR unit, increasing passengers per train is an interesting exercise. Stacked bunk sleepers, like the old YW? Double decking could be tricky with the subfloor mechanics.


----------



## xinxingren

*Five Days Administrative Detention*
for attempting to carry kerosene onto an EMU. Seems like those baggage scanners can tell real mineral water from other substances
http://news.gaotie.cn/yishi/2016-01-04/295710.html


----------



## luhai

Not Sure where to post this. So Hyperloops in China? CRRC building Hyperloops in the US?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-hyperloop-talks-as-musk-vision-moves-closer

China's CRRC Said in Hyperloop Talks as Musk Vision Moves Closer



> CRRC Corp., China’s biggest maker of railway equipment, is in talks for a potential investment in Hyperloop Technologies Inc., one of the startups trying to develop Elon Musk’s idea for a high-speed transportation system, according to people familiar with the matter.
> The companies are discussing opportunities including collaboration and investment, the people said, asking not to be named because the details are private. The talks are in an an initial stage and no decisions have been made, the people said.
> Musk, the billionaire founder of Tesla Motors Inc. and Space Exploration Technologies Corp., in 2013 outlined his vision for a transit system that could connect San Francisco and Los Angeles. Using low-pressure metal tubes with aluminum capsules, or pods, the concept would be able to support commuting speeds of more than 700 miles (1,100 kilometers) per hour.
> CRRC, formed last year from the merger of two Chinese state-owned trainmakers, plans to double overseas sales in five years as it targets major orders.
> 
> ...


----------



## dbhaskar

*HSR Network Maps*

I found some cool maps of China's high speed network on http://www.travelchinaguide.com/ Images are too big to insert here, so I provide URL instead:

High speed lines (opened): http://www.travelchinaguide.com/images/map/train/high-speed-railway.jpg

High speed lines (opened + planned): http://www.travelchinaguide.com/images/map/train/high-speed.jpg

The scale of this network is amazing! 

Some (fantasy) lines that I wish existed (maybe around 2035): 

Dalian-Yantai (Across Bohai Strait)
Urumqi-Kashgar
Dandong-Pyongyang-Seoul
Nanning-Chongzuo-Hanoi
Jilin-Hunchun-Vladivostok
Harbin-Jiamusi-Khabarovsk


----------



## Olbrzym

*High speed rail books*

Please, advise me on books about high-speed railways, trains or high-speed railway network development or projects in the world, everything that concerns high speed rail transport and rail project management. Where can I download these books? I've spent much time searching for these books and found just a couple of books but only articles. Thank you!


----------



## chornedsnorkack

dbhaskar said:


> I found some cool maps of China's high speed network on http://www.travelchinaguide.com/ Images are too big to insert here, so I provide URL instead:
> 
> High speed lines (opened): http://www.travelchinaguide.com/images/map/train/high-speed-railway.jpg
> 
> High speed lines (opened + planned): http://www.travelchinaguide.com/images/map/train/high-speed.jpg
> 
> The scale of this network is amazing!
> 
> Some (fantasy) lines that I wish existed (maybe around 2035):
> 
> Dalian-Yantai (Across Bohai Strait)


I´d first want Zhanjiang-Haian-Haikou. Qiongzhou strait is easier than Bohai one, and there is no alternative overland route.
Oh, and Zhanjiang-Beihai as well. Otherwise Zhanjiang is a dead end.


dbhaskar said:


> Urumqi-Kashgar


Parallel to existing Turpan-Kashgar slow speed railway?
I´d also want Urumqi-Yining-Khorgos-Almaty.


dbhaskar said:


> Dandong-Pyongyang-Seoul


Agreed.


dbhaskar said:


> Nanning-Chongzuo-Hanoi


Where is Chongzuo?
Note that the map does not have Qinzhou-Fanchenggang high speed railway.


----------



## Wisarut

chornedsnorkack said:


> I´d first want Zhanjiang-Haian-Haikou. Qiongzhou strait is easier than Bohai one, and there is no alternative overland route.
> Oh, and Zhanjiang-Beihai as well. Otherwise Zhanjiang is a dead end.
> 
> Parallel to existing Turpan-Kashgar slow speed railway?
> I´d also want Urumqi-Yining-Khorgos-Almaty.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> Where is Chongzuo?
> Note that the map does not have Qinzhou-Fanchenggang high speed railway.


Chongzuo (崇左市) is a prefect border to Vietnam with the main city of Pingxiang city (凭祥市) nearest to the border point to Vietnam [about 7 km from the Border] opposite to Lạng Sơn (諒山) - border town on Vietnam side

There is already mixed gauge rail link between Nang Ning and Gia Lâm (rural District [suburb] on the Northern section of Hanoi - 5 km North of Hanoi (河內) station) - but current max speed is 70 kph - up from 40 kph - electrified double track would be pleased
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lạng_Sơn
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chongzuo

BTW, It seems to me that you are western born Chinese rather than Chinese from the places other than the Mainland though.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Wisarut said:


> Chongzuo (崇左市) is a prefect border to Vietnam with the main city of Pingxiang city (凭祥市) nearest to the border point to Vietnam [about 7 km from the Border] opposite to Lạng Sơn (諒山) - border town on Vietnam side
> 
> There is already mixed gauge rail link between Nang Ning and Gia Lâm (rural District [suburb] on the Northern section of Hanoi - 5 km North of Hanoi (河內) station) - but current max speed is 70 kph - up from 40 kph - electrified


Oh, sure. Pingxiang I remembered as the border crossing.
My point is that high speed railway via Chongzuo and Pingxiang would double an existing slow speed rail route, whereas an obvious alternative route exists that has no railway. A high speed railway already exists to Fangchenggang, so it could be better to build a HSR along the coast to Hanoi, through places that have no railway now, yet deserve one.


----------



## Wisarut

chornedsnorkack said:


> Oh, sure. Pingxiang I remembered as the border crossing.
> My point is that high speed railway via Chongzuo and Pingxiang would double an existing slow speed rail route, whereas an obvious alternative route exists that has no railway. A high speed railway already exists to Fangchenggang, so it could be better to build a HSR along the coast to Hanoi, through places that have no railway now, yet deserve one.


Hard to day if Vietnamese railway flatly refuse to make a rail connection to Fangchenggang as they would prefer to either double track or high speed on existing route which they are familiar with.


----------



## lookback718

dbhaskar said:


> Some (fantasy) lines that I wish existed (maybe around 2035):
> 
> Urumqi-Kashgar
> 
> I don't think you will have to wait that long for that line.
> 
> It looks like China is planing on building Kashgar - Karakoram railway in the 2016 - 2020 five year plan. Me think this railway is not stopping on the border, and will go through to Pakistan - Gwadar. No mean feat to build a railway through the Karakoram Range...
> 
> There is also plans to link Kyrgyzstan - Uzbekistan (Fergena valley) and Kyrgyzstan - Tajikistan - Afghanistan, both from Kashgar.
> 
> With 3 major international links converging on Kashgar, a HSR may not be long away.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

lookback718 said:


> Some (fantasy) lines that I wish existed (maybe around 2035):
> 
> Urumqi-Kashgar


At present, Urumqi-Kashgar slow speed railway has just 3 trains daily, trip time 19 to 26 hours.
A comparable distance Urumqi-Zhangye has 21 slow trains daily, trip time 12:30 to 18:26, and 5 high speed trains daily, trip time 8:24 to 8:34.
Should Turpan-Kashgar railway frequency and speed be improved?
Should Kashgar be served by direct trains to China?


----------



## xinxingren

dbhaskar said:


> I found some cool maps of China's high speed network
> ...
> High speed lines (opened + planned): http://www.travelchinaguide.com/images/map/train/high-speed.jpg


IIRC I saw maybe four years ago a HSR planning map that had the Cheng-Kun HSR line following roughly the "central" of the three routes originally proposed for the slow trains in 1950. A bit like the new Baise-Kunming HSR section, relatively easy country, but with no significant population centres. Now the map linked above shows Cheng-Kun HSR following the existing slow line. There will be demand northbound from Panzhihua and Xichang, but what HSR traffic would there be Guangtong-Panzhihua?

Part of the mystery may be in the new line/upgrade Kunming-Guangtong. To my untrained eye that seemed to be a 250km/hr design, but all slow traffic is now routed onto it, except a few local goods services.

Another part of the mystery is what I thought was a Potemkin HSR on the northern outskirts of Miyi between Panzhihua and Dechang. You can see the works on Google Earth at 26°54'06"N 102°07'19"E. I travelled by bicycle the length of the Cheng-Kun line from south to north, and in the 800 odd km between Guangtong and Emeishan I saw nothing else that looked vaguely like HSR.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*Shenzhen-Futian "high speed railway"*

There seem to be 23 daily trains Longhua-Shenzhen, all of which originate from Guangzhou South for some reason, possibly because Guangzhou Railway Bureau consists of swine.

Travel time Longhua-Shenzhen 11 minutes... meaning 49 km/h. Plenty of slow speed railways are faster on such short nonstops.

Travel time Guangzhou-Futian is between 0:42 and 1:05.


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Travel time Guangzhou-Futian is between 0:42 and 1:05.


Still an improvement over the C trains from the Luohu terminus.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Haikou and Sanya seem to be connected by:
1 train on Western slow railway;
3 trains on Western High Speed Railway;
8 trains on Eastern High Speed Raolway.
Correct?


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> Haikou and Sanya seem to be connected by:
> 1 train on Western slow railway;
> 3 trains on Western High Speed Railway;
> 8 trains on Eastern High Speed Raolway.
> Correct?


On a random day, Wednesday February 17 both 12306.com and huochepiao are showing me 42 D trains and the Z201. This includes trains from Haikou via Haikoudong to the eastern loop, and trains from Haikoudong via Haikou to the western loop. How many of each is left as an exercise for the gentle reader. Note the Beijing-Sanya Z201 takes the train ferry from the mainland, then goes down the eastern HSR line. This train used to have a T number.


----------



## tjrgx

*World's biggest maintenance center ready for travel rush*






The Shanghai Hongqiao maintenance center is a “home” for high-speed trains. Nighttime gets busy here, as about 70 sets of trains are waiting for maintenance check. At least 2.5 hours are needed for each set. The mandatory body-check comes after 4,000 kilometers of travel, or 48 hours on rails.

Shanghai railway section takes one third of the nation's high-speed railway carriages. During the 40-day spring festival travel rush, an estimated 8 million passengers will be traveling by high-speed railways. Their safety is the priority for the mechanics working here.

Gong Yufeng is among the first batch of high-speed railway carriage inspectors since 2008. Tonight, his team of four inspectors will be checking five sets of trains. The first one turns out to be a problem.

“The lubricating oil for the axial bearing wheel gear box is creaming; the low temperature might be the reason. We have to drain the oil from all axial bearings of this carriage, keep samples for further examination, and replace it with good oil,” Gong said.

This problem, even though a minor one, takes them two extra hours. And given the Spring Festival travel rush, the mechanics have limited time for offline reparation. But the good news is this set of carriages is good to hit the trails tomorrow.

The Shanghai high-speed railway section is the first and the biggest in China. Nearly half of its 540 sets of carriages are sent to seven subordinated maintenance bases every day.

“I walk at least 6 or 7 kilometers every night on shift. I have to go back and forth like 3 times to complete the checking procedure, and four to five trains a night. And that’s the minimum distance when nothing goes wrong,” Gong said.

More than 70 percent of departures from Shanghai railway stations are high-speed railway lines, an increase of 30 percent year-on-year. Safety and convenience make it the first choice of passengers, especially those who will come home for the holidays.


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Have any passenger count records been set on the way home for New Year?


http://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2016-02/15/content_23491206.htm

Keep in mind the numbers are not only CRH.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> http://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2016-02/15/content_23491206.htm
> 
> Keep in mind the numbers are not only CRH.





Xinhua said:


> Chinese passengers made a record number of trips by train on Sunday as people returned to work after a week-long Lunar New Year holiday, according to China Railway Corporation (CRC) on Monday.


Is this then the record over and above the number reached on the way to New Year?


----------



## bluemeansgo

For those CRH2C/CRH3C are they running any trains at 350km/h again anywhere? It's been almost 5 years since the accident in 2011... is it just an ROI thing running them that fast? 

I'd imagine that for some of the longer express routes, it would cut a considerable amount of time off the journey.


----------



## skyridgeline

bluemeansgo said:


> For those CRH2C/CRH3C are they running any trains at 350km/h again anywhere? *It's been almost 5 years since the accident in 2011*... is it just an ROI thing running them that fast?
> 
> I'd imagine that for some of the longer express routes, it would cut a considerable amount of time off the journey.



I think they are still working on operational experiences. The lack of it was the major cause of that disaster.


----------



## ccdk

*Producing high-speed rail tracks*
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2016-02/18/content_23538210.htm

Shibantan factory is China's largest rail track welding factory in Chengdu, the capital city of Sichuan province. The factory can produce the single 500-meter long seamless track used in laying high-speed railways.

Trains running on high-speed railways, which are made of seamless tracks, can improve safety, and won't make as much noise as common railways .

Since the factory was founded in 2008, it has produced 11,908 kilometers of rail tracks which have been laid on the railway network in China's southwestern provinces.

Workers clean rust from the rail tracks in the factory in Chengdu, Sichuan province, Feb 17, 2016









A man works in the factory in Chengdu, Sichuan province, Feb 17, 2016









Welders work in the factory in Chengdu









A worker heats the joints of a rail track in the factory in Chengdu, Sichuan province









Workers polish a rail track in the factory









Technicians work in the factory









Quality inspectors work in the factory









A man monitors the process of tracks moving in the factory


----------



## foxmulder

^^ That is a great post, thanks..


----------



## bluemeansgo

skyridgeline said:


> I think they are still working on operational experiences. The lack of it was the major cause of that disaster.


Sorry, yes I understand that... but the trains were running slowly for that accident. I don't think it really affected high speed operation, so I was just curious if trains were running at 350km/h again or if there are any plans to do so. I had heard from a friend they were, but i hadn't heard any news on it.

If not running, I was wondering if it's a cost-saving measure preventing 350km/h or a technical one. 

I imagine it would save considerable time on the long express routes but add additional wear. What is the practical speed limit on conventional HSR? 320? 350? 380km/h? I guess that's not a question of China specifically, but given China has LONG straight runs of new track, I'd imagine that they should be able to set the standard for highest speeds. USA is huge but mostly car-culture, France is nice and flat, but relatively small, Japan and Taiwan are compact but have challenging geography, Korea is small.

When you have lines between Beijing and Hong Kong, there should be opportunity for very fast trains, assuming they don't make too many stops. But if it's just not cost effective, certainly China will be one of the first countries to show the limitations of conventional HSR.


----------



## skyridgeline

bluemeansgo said:


> Sorry, yes I understand that... but the trains were running slowly for that accident. *I don't think it really affected high speed operation*, so I was just curious if trains were running at 350km/h again or if there are any plans to do so. I had heard from a friend they were, but i hadn't heard any news on it.
> 
> If not running, I was wondering if it's a cost-saving measure preventing 350km/h or a technical one.
> 
> I imagine it would save considerable time on the long express routes but add additional wear. What is the practical speed limit on conventional HSR? 320? 350? 380km/h? I guess that's not a question of China specifically, but given China has LONG straight runs of new track, I'd imagine that they should be able to set the standard for highest speeds. USA is huge but mostly car-culture, France is nice and flat, but relatively small, Japan and Taiwan are compact but have challenging geography, Korea is small.
> 
> When you have lines between Beijing and Hong Kong, there should be opportunity for very fast trains, assuming they don't make too many stops. But if it's just not cost effective, certainly China will be one of the first countries to show the limitations of conventional HSR.


The lower speed limits were implemented network wide. It does give the decision makers more time to think/prepare things over when trouble strikes. 

Right now - reliable, dependable and smooth operation is much more important. 

Eventually, the max/average speeds will be increased due to the competitions from the airlines and less tolls on roads. Maybe that's when they'll introduce this bad boy ...


----------



## dixiadetie

*CRH5E and CJ1 in Huanggutun Depot (皇姑屯动车所)*

*photoed by @CRHEMU*

CRH5E (new shape) , 250km/h , 8-car sleeper train .


















CJ1 , the one with double blue strip , is the inner city type train .


----------



## dixiadetie

*Riding CJ1*

*photoed by @CRHEMU*

The shape of it's head is a little bit similar to CRH5 , but shorter and smoother .


















Rings beside the seat for holding , so it is the commuter type train , but none line (except CRH trains form Guangzhou East to Shenzhen) operated by China Rial Company is in commute-way operation (now you have to aboard a train right according to your ticket , another train to the same destination ? NO WAY!!) 









Hand rail and space near the door for standing.


















luggage panel









Unavailable to adjust the angle of seats. 









This part is similar to CRH3C









Car number


----------



## luhai

skyridgeline said:


> The lower speed limits were implemented network wide. It does give the decision makers more time to think/prepare things over when trouble strikes.
> 
> 
> 
> Right now - reliable, dependable and smooth operation is much more important.
> 
> 
> 
> Eventually, the max/average speeds will be increased due to the competitions from the airlines and less tolls on roads. Maybe that's when they'll introduce this bad boy ...



In the context of the wenzhou accident, the train are going barely over 100 km/hr. It's the ill- advised use of manual override coupled with fail-dangerous visual signals that caused the accident. And the root cause is the management has put punctuality over caution and safety, and that can happen anywhere at any speed.


----------



## FM 2258

Great pictures and posts *dixiadetie *and *ccdk*.

Never knew about the CJ1 train and I can't seem to keep up with all the CRH train variants. 

Edit: I just found this page (in Chinese) that seems to list all the variants with pictures:

http://www.360doc.com/content/15/0716/12/22751255_485255653.shtml



Curious, is this version of the CRH6 ever going to run?


----------



## dixiadetie

This page has almost full kind of CRH train sets , but it left some . I found a more complete one here.
More and more versions of CRH train are coming up , so the list will be refreshed frequently.

Only after seeing that page I know the former "CRH-G"(deep cold resistance) and "CRH-H"(anti-sandstorm) is combine together as the "CRH-G"

For the pic , that is the initial prototype of CRH6 , just the first car , but the shape was changed when commercial production started and the car in the pic never became a complete set of CRH6 train.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ @ *dixiadetie*
Thank you very much for the photos!

The CJ1 (CJ1002) is the CRH3A, right ? It is based on the CRH5A but manufactured by CNR Tangshan rather than CNR Changchun. It has 202 meters instead of 211,5; 5,120 kW instead of 5,500 and flows 200 km/h instead 250; as I pointed.

I am very surprised that the CRH5E only have 8 cars being sleeper, you will have about 315 passengers?

Of CRH3A did they only 8 train ?, and how many will be the CRH5E ?, is there any more or less updated list although it stay the next day old?

Anyway, the SSC Thread over China HS trains are here.


Moreover, in connection with the accident in Wenzhou, I remember the chronology of events.

*Reducing the maximum speed in China and (null) regarding the accident of Wenzhou
*


Gusiluz said:


> Since it seems that no one answered, I will with my bad English. Sorry
> 
> The current maximum speed is 309 km/h, and was never circulated to 380 in commercial service.
> 
> Following the resignation (February 2011) for corruption of former Minister of Railways announced in April his successor a change in policy on HS: the speed of the HSR will be reduced from 350 to 300 km/h in July, and the rest of PDL from 250 to 200. The reasons given were: reducing energy consumption, lowering prices to fill the trains and for safety !!. Shortly after an "adjunct" nuance the words of his boss: the speed reduction would be only on lines with low occupancy and "of course" had nothing to do with security.
> 
> Meanwhile, on June 30, the Beijing-Shanghai line was inaugurated. It is the only projected to 380 km/h, but after many problems during testing was commissioned in 300, announcing the 350 "before year end" and 380 "some time later". In July presented problems of signaling and new trains CRH380A.
> July 1 became effective speed reduction on lines with low occupancy.
> 23 of the same month the accident Wenzhou. In this accident he had nothing to do speed, so they have told: there was a storm, the first train (CRH1B # 46) stopped by a failure in a substation, signals broke down, it was getting dark ... and the second train ( the CRH2E No. 139, both entitled to 250 km/h) hit the first train.
> In that vein, the SE Coastal PDL, full speed before July 1 was 250, and at that time was reduced, so the accident occurred in a limited line and 200 km/h. I do not know how fast the scope occurred, although it would not be too high: they derailed the last 2 and the first 4 cars; the problem is that it was on a viaduct and 3 of them fell into the void.
> After the accident nor the maximum speed of 350 km/h was reduced immediately, but in stages: during August fell at least between Beijing and Tianjin (16), Shanghai-Hangzhou and Wuhan-Guangzhou (the 28). Also in August, but nothing seems to indicate a relationship, all trains were 380A factory to make changes, since continued to fail.
> 
> Sources (in English, although the entrance is in Spanish)
> ................................................
> Ya que parece que nadie te contesta, lo haré con mi mal inglés. Lo siento.
> La velocidad máxima actual es de 309 km/h, y nunca llegó a circular a 380 en servicio comercial.
> Tras la dimisión (febrero de 2011) por corrupción del anterior ministro de FFCC su sucesor anuncia en abril un cambio en la política sobre la AV: la velocidad de las HSR se reducirá en julio desde los 350 a los 300 km/h, y la del resto de PDL desde los 250 a los 200. Los motivos aducidos fueron: reducir el consumo energético, bajar los precios para llenar los trenes y ¡¡por seguridad!!. Poco después un “adjunto” matizó las palabras de su jefe: la reducción de velocidad sería solo en las líneas con baja ocupación y, “por supuesto”, no tenía nada que ver con la seguridad.
> Mientras, el 30 de junio se inauguraba la línea Beijing-Shanghai. Es la única proyectada para 380 km/h, pero, tras muchos problemas durante las pruebas se puso en servicio a 300, anunciándose los 350 “antes de fin de año” y los 380 “algún tiempo después”. En julio ya presentó problemas de señalización y de los nuevos trenes CRH380A.
> El 1 de julio entró en vigor la reducción de velocidad en las líneas con baja ocupación.
> El 23 del mismo mes se produjo el accidente de Wenzhou. En este accidente nada tuvo que ver la velocidad, por lo que han contado: hubo una tormenta, el primer tren (CRH1B nº 46) se detuvo por un fallo en una subestación, se averiaron las señales, estaba anocheciendo … y el segundo tren (el CRH2E nº 139, ambas series autorizadas a 250 km/h) alcanzó al primero.
> En esa línea, la SE Coastal PDL, la velocidad máxima antes del 1 de julio era de 250, y en esa fecha se redujo hasta 200, así que el accidente se produjo en una línea limitada ya a 200 km/h. No sé a qué velocidad se produjo el alcance, aunque no sería demasiado elevada: descarrilaron los 2 últimos y los 4 primeros coches; el problema es que fue en un viaducto y 3 de ellos cayeron al vacío.
> Después del accidente tampoco se redujo la velocidad máxima de 350 km/h de forma inmediata, sino de manera escalonada: a lo largo de agosto se redujo al menos entre Beijing y Tianjin (el 16), Shanghai-Hangzhou y Wuhan-Guangzhou (el 28). También en agosto, aunque nada parece indicar una relación, todos los trenes 380A fueron a fábrica para realizar cambios, ya que continuaban fallando.


----------



## Pansori

It is a well know fact that speed reductions were announced (or at least implied) well before Wenzhou accident. It was a coincidence that the accident happened around the same time.


----------



## dixiadetie

Thank you for telling me the appropriate Thread for China HSR train set ! 

Medias in China attacked the HSR in China at that time , not only complain about the way to deal with the accident . The train in the accident removed form the track without carefully survey , just for reopen the line , and tore the car into fragment (this was proved in the accident survey report to be a approach for the heavy machine like crane came into the site to work in the mud land and they have no choice but did this).
And the government was blamed for concealing the number of death (which was proved as a rumor soon).

Argue about " whether China should continue developing more HSR plan ? " or "Were the HSR in operation safe?" were the main topic of the medias in August , worrying the security of HSR . 

Finally , today HSR has become the popular and decent way to travel in China , safer than the plane I can say , and the administrator of HSR in China approved a lot form the Wenzhou accident . I think China HSR has an optimistic future .


----------



## drezdinski




----------



## luhai

drezdinski said:


>



Interesting, the way it translates is more Bing like rather than google. Who the hell uses bing these days.


----------



## drezdinski

Google is blocked in China, although translate works most of the time. However, this is probably Baidu translate or some other domestic software.


----------



## Wisarut

luhai said:


> Interesting, the way it translates is more Bing like rather than google. Who the hell uses bing these days.


I have full trust on Bing translate rather than Google Translate though


----------



## BEE2

Pansori said:


> It is a well know fact that speed reductions were announced (or at least implied) well before Wenzhou accident. It was a coincidence that the accident happened around the same time.



That is true for sure.:cheers:
No matter what, China has made a great achievement on HSR network development.
I don't dare to say Chinese HSR network is the best BUT I have to admit China has done
a great job!


----------



## tjrgx

*Aerial view: China's bullet train cross the breathtaking winter scenery near the Great Wall*


----------



## dixiadetie

*Trains on JiaoJi Line (胶济线)*

*Photoed by @幺三铁线*

CRH380BL









CRH380CL


















CRH2









CRH5


















CRH3C (I suppose)









CRH380A


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## foxmulder

That is a nice view from one's apartment windows...


----------



## Silly_Walks

tjrgx said:


>


That's not HSR.


----------



## flankerjun

Average travel distance by train in China is 472.75KM in 2015,reduced by 3.86%. totally Turnover Volume is 1196 billion passenger person-kilometres.


----------



## flankerjun




----------



## ccdk

Infographic about CRH
http://p1.pstatp.com/large/214000d7f31019aae49


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

> *Proposal emerges for high-speed rail line connecting Beijing with Taiwan*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China is studying the possibility of a railway link between the mainland and Taiwan, the government’s latest idea to use its high-speed train know-how to bridge a stubborn political divide.
> The proposal for a transit link across the 180-kilometer (110-mile) Taiwan Strait to the self-ruled island was referred to only in passing in the draft of the 2016-20 development plan released Saturday in Beijing. The document mentions the Taiwanese capital, Taipei, as a potential rail destination by 2030 and features a map of the train system, with a proposed rail line connecting the city with the mainland city of Fuzhou.
> 
> Even if such a project were technically feasible, it would face huge challenges politically. Taiwan and the mainland have been governed separately since Kuomintang leader Chiang Kai-shek fled to Taiwan at the end of the Chinese civil war in 1949 and have occasionally exchanged fire over the decades, with China test-firing missiles into the strait in the mid-1990s. Although the two sides have seen expanding economic ties in recent years, Taiwan voters in January ousted the more mainland-friendly Kuomintang government in favor of the Democratic Progressive Party.
> Taiwan’s Mainland Affairs Council said Saturday that such a rail link would concern national security and public opinion and wasn’t up to China alone, the Taipei-based United Daily News reported, without naming any officials. President-elect Tsai Ing-wen, the DPP’s chairwoman, doesn’t take office until May 20.
> 
> ‘Secessionist Activities’
> 
> Chinese President Xi Jinping on Saturday warned against any push by Taiwan to formalize it’s split from the mainland. "We will resolutely contain ‘Taiwan independence’ secessionist activities in any form," Xi told a meeting of Shanghai delegates during the the National People’s Congress in Beijing, according to the official Xinhua News Agency. His remarks echoed earlier comments in Premier Li Keqiang’s annual report to the legislative body.
> China, which built the world’s largest high-speed rail network over the past two decades, is trying to leverage its expertise to build diplomatic clout globally and in 2014 even floated the idea of a 13,000-kilometer link to the U.S. via Siberia and Alaska. Such projects have faced political resistance from people wary of closer ties with China, with a proposed train link between Hong Kong and the mainland bogged down over concerns about stationing mainland immigration officers in the semi-autonomous city.
> 
> The draft of China’s 13th five-year-plan proposed completing the rail connection between Hong Kong and Beijing by 2020. It also called for building a second link to the restive region of Tibet by the end of the next decade.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...high-speed-railway-link-with-rivals-in-taipei


----------



## foxmulder

That is not new. I remember a similar plan from 4-5 years ago.


----------



## ccdk

http://en.yibada.com/articles/108008/20160306/china-worlds-largest-high-speed-rail-network.htm


----------



## BEE2

ccdk said:


> http://en.yibada.com/articles/108008/20160306/china-worlds-largest-high-speed-rail-network.htm



I got a question about the viaduct. If we look at the viaduct in the distance(see the picture), why the top of the viaduct is NOT level? Does
it affect the speed of HSR???? Am I right : The more level the rails are, the higher speed HSR can go?


----------



## foxmulder

^^ In theory, you are absolutely right. But it this picture the curvature is very subtle that it does not have any effect on the speed. I am pretty sure, for the whole section we see in this picture, train can go at max design speed.


----------



## dixiadetie

*Testing CRH6 train on GuangFoZhao Inter City line*

*Photoed by @冇影冇踪*

The testing is ongoing , but we have no idea when the line start commercial running , so just wait ........









The GuangFoZhao Inter City line link Guangzhou(广州) , Foshan（佛山） and Zhaoqing（肇庆） . From center to the west of Pearl River Delta .









The train will run 200km/h.


----------



## loefet

BEE2 said:


> I got a question about the viaduct. If we look at the viaduct in the distance(see the picture), why the top of the viaduct is NOT level? Does
> it affect the speed of HSR???? Am I right : The more level the rails are, the higher speed HSR can go?


There are limits to both vertical and horizontal curves, and as long as they are over these limits then it won't be any issues with passenger comfort. I also suspect that the image itself makes these undulations look way more severe than they are in reality, most likely shot with a long telephoto lens at a distance.

The curve radius for vertical curves are usually a lot larger than the horizontal ones, as an example then UK HS1 section 2 which have a top speed of 230 km/h have a horizontal radius of about 2500 meters where as the vertical one is 10000 meters, and for UK HS2 which is designed for speeds up to 400 km/h, it will have a horizontal radius of 7000 m where as the vertical radius at those speeds needs to be 56000 meters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_railway_curve_radius

I believer that most people are able to accept more forces in the lateral direction than feeling nauseated with rapid changes in weight that would happen if the vertical radius in too tight, the effect is very similar to that you would feel on a roller coaster.


----------



## BEE2

What is the max operational speed of CRH6 on the intercity lines???


----------



## dixiadetie

BEE2 said:


> What is the max operational speed of CRH6 on the intercity lines???


It depends on the track condition and take noise into consideration near the urban area . Form 80 to 180 in reality .


----------



## BEE2

dixiadetie said:


> It depends on the track condition and take noise into consideration near the urban area . Form 80 to 180 in reality .


If so, the CRH6 (intercity train) cannot be categorized as HSR since its speed < 250 km/h. Am I right?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ There are several trains CRH6:

CRH6A: 200 km/h 5,520 kW 4R 4M 24 trains manufactured
CRH6F: 160 km/h 5,152 kW 4M 4R
CRH6S: 140 km/h 2,200 kW 2M 2R

CRH means China Railway High-speed, ie: for China itself are HST.


----------



## ccdk

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2016-03/10/content_23806223.htm


----------



## ccdk

*.....*

duplicate


----------



## erkantang

Sry if obvious but are there plans to connect Mainland with Hainan through a tunnel and Mainland and Macao?


----------



## foxmulder

I believe there were plans/rumors but don't know about whether there were any real feasibility studies about it.


----------



## Short

erkantang said:


> Sry if obvious but are there plans to connect Mainland with Hainan through a tunnel and Mainland and Macao?


As for a connection to Macau it is just a symbolic notion that realistically can not be economically justified. The rail line goes right up to the border control point at Gongbei in Zhuhai. So there is little need and motivation to have a station inside Macau itself. Macau does not have any vacant land to accommodate a station, let alone the rest of the line, regardless of if it was in a tunnel or not. Even the small Macau people mover has been fraught with hassles. You only have to look at the issues in housing dual border controls at West Kowloon Terminus in Hong Kong to understand that it would also be a major issue in the gambling mecca. A very expensive exercise for the sake of an extension of a few km of the fast regional Zhuhai-Guangzhou line that is unlikely to host long distance high speed services either. It will be just as convenient to get the fast train to West Kowloon and then fast ferry to Macau from the nearby wharf, than change trains at Guangzhou South on to Zhuhai.


----------



## erkantang

Short said:


> As for a connection to Macau it is just a symbolic notion that realistically can not be economically justified. The rail line goes right up to the border control point at Gongbei in Zhuhai. So there is little need and motivation to have a station inside Macau itself. Macau does not have any vacant land to accommodate a station, let alone the rest of the line, regardless of if it was in a tunnel or not. Even the small Macau people mover has been fraught with hassles. You only have to look at the issues in housing dual border controls at West Kowloon Terminus in Hong Kong to understand that it would also be a major issue in the gambling mecca. A very expensive exercise for the sake of an extension of a few km of the fast regional Zhuhai-Guangzhou line that is unlikely to host long distance high speed services either. It will be just as convenient to get the fast train to West Kowloon and then fast ferry to Macau from the nearby wharf, than change trains at Guangzhou South on to Zhuhai.


Ok thanks


----------



## Woonsocket54

more photos of GuanHui Intercity Railway, which opened end of March










http://www.huizhou.cn/zt2016/ghcgkt/jdt/201603/t20160331_1077747.htm










http://www.huizhou.cn/zt2016/ghcgkt/jdt/201603/t20160331_1077747.htm










http://www.huizhou.cn/zt2016/ghcgkt/jdt/201603/t20160331_1077747.htm










http://bbs.sun0769.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1590661










http://bbs.sun0769.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1590661










http://bbs.sun0769.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1590661










http://bbs.sun0769.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1590661










http://bbs.sun0769.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=159066










http://bbs.sun0769.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=159066










http://bbs.sun0769.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=159066










http://bbs.sun0769.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=159066










http://bbs.sun0769.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1590661










http://bbs.sun0769.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1590661










http://bbs.sun0769.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1590661










http://bbs.sun0769.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1590661










http://bbs.sun0769.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1590661










http://bbs.sun0769.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1590661










http://hz.southcn.com/content/2016-03/30/content_145010563.htm










http://hz.southcn.com/content/2016-03/30/content_145010563_2.htm










http://bbs.sun0769.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1590661


----------



## doc7austin

Detailing my recent journey on the EMU Harmony train between Nanning and Guilin, Guangxi Province.
南宁东站 - 桂林北站


Here is the timetable:












The train takes 2 hours and 55 minutes to cover the distance of 376 km.

During the journey the train will be using the Liuzhou - Nanning Intercity Railway and the Hengyang - Liuzhou Intercity Railway (both opened in Dec 2013). 衡柳铁路 湘桂铁路
Classical T- and K-trains are also travelling on this newly-built line between Nanning and Guilin to relieve the old Hunan–Guangxi Railway.

The train took 2 hours and 55 minutes to cover a distance of 376 km;

Around Nanning East Railway Station:












Inside Nanning East Railway Station:





















Our CRH2A trainset (CRH2A-2378), operated by the Nanning Railway Bureau 南寧鐵路局 :






























Getting on the way:





















Parallel Nanning - Guangzhou High-Speed Railway:












Beautiful Guangxi Province (the windows were very dirty and the weather bad, hence the photo quality suffers a lot):







































The old Hunan–Guangxi Railway can be seen here 湘桂铁路 :












Laibin North Railway Station:












Getting closer to Liuzhou, the half-way point between Nanning and Guilin:












Liuzhou Railway Station:












Getting closer to Guilin:
















































Guilin North Railway Station:







































Here is the video of this exciting journey:








If the video does not load, here is the direct link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAfk14kdI6k



Enjoy!


----------



## chornedsnorkack

So which are the open stations of Huizhou-Dongguan high speed railway?
I get:

Xiaojinkou
Yunshan
West Lake East
Longhu
Huihuan
Zhongkai
Lilin North
Yinping
Zhangmutou East
Changping East
Is that correct?


----------



## xinxingren

erkantang said:


> Sry if obvious but are there plans to connect Mainland with Hainan through a tunnel and (...)?


The Hainan connection has been on again - off again for donkeys years, sometimes a tunnel, sometimes a bridge, the latest is a combo a bit like the HK-Macau road crossing currently being built. Every now and then a newspaper short of stories will pick up the latest PR from some study and emphasise "plans nearing completion" or "feasible budget". It's still a sideshow.


----------



## xinxingren

*Yunnan's first high-speed railway completed*

Just picked up this minor milestone http://english.cctv.com/2016/04/28/VIDEEEy2JA6seOuBDM8vQ9rt160428.shtml
If the video doesn't work outside China then it's at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsN-35puLRU
I guess "completed" must be read in context with "Yunnan" in the village mentality of provincial administrations. How is the rest of the line doing?


----------



## Gusiluz

*Number of high-speed passenger*

*Passengers in CRH trains on HSR* (millions)
2007: 86,500
2008: 127,400
2009: 179,580
2010: 290,540
2011: 440,000
2012: 485,500
2013: 530,000 (672 M in CRH trains on any line)
2014: ¿?.........(893,2 M in CRH trains on any line)
2015: ¿?.........(910 M in CRH trains on any line)

*Passengers-kilometers in CRH trains on HSR* (billions)
2007: 13,000
2008: 25,500
2009: 46,300
2010: 65,200
2011: 98,100
2012: 144,606
2013: 214,100 (221 in CRH trains on any line)
2014:
2015:
TOTAL: 606,806

Source: 
2007/2012: Performance and efficiency of high-speed rail systems 
2013: High-Speed Railways in China: A Look at Traffic
2015

Passengers and Passengers-kilometers world data, and explanation of the fact that the operators and the UIC count -in some cases- the number of passengers on high-speed trains, not on high-speed lines.


----------



## Short

A new high speed station has been announced to be constructed in Shenzhen's Xili District. With 11 platforms serving 20 tracks were said to be part of the plan. 

This will be on a similar scale to Shenzhen North railway station and would most likely replace the conventional rail Shenzhen West railway station, serving the Nanshan region and the new Qianhai development zone. How this station will be connected to the rest of the Chinese high speed network was not mentioned. However I would expect the conventional rail corridor to Shenzhen West and port might provide a basis for a route.


----------



## Pansori

Short said:


> A new high speed station has been announced to be constructed in Shenzhen's Xili District. With 11 platforms serving 20 tracks were said to be part of the plan.
> 
> This will be on a similar scale to Shenzhen North railway station and would most likely replace the conventional rail Shenzhen West railway station, serving the Nanshan region and the new Qianhai development zone. How this station will be connected to the rest of the Chinese high speed network was not mentioned. However I would expect the conventional rail corridor to Shenzhen West and port might provide a basis for a route.


Good news. I have been wondering for a while now if Qianhai would get a HSR station.


----------



## NCT

I must say 2 hours 55 mins for 376 km is pretty poor. Those 4 intermediate stops must have cost around 40 minutes in total.


----------



## Pansori

NCT said:


> I must say 2 hours 55 mins for 376 km is pretty poor. Those 4 intermediate stops must have cost around 40 minutes in total.


130km/h average speed. That's normal considering the number of intermediate stops and distance. The fastest service takes 2:40 with two intermediate stops at an average speed of 141km/h. This is in line with other 200km/h D routes.


----------



## laojang

The current railway boss Mr. Sheng Guangzu is an extremely cautious guy. He has reduced the speed for all 
lines in the last few years, especially newly opened ones.
He has taken a lot of blames for doing so.
However, the speed would be increased over time, even under Mr. Sheng. For example, starting 2016 May 15th, the fastest D train from Lanzhou to Urumqi will take 10:34 to cover the 1776 km distance with 11 stops. That is already comparable with many high speed train service from 
Tokyo to Fukuoka 5-6 hours covering about 1000km.

When the line from Xian to Lanzhou is finished, the time will be cut again partly because longer distance trains will make fewer stops.


----------



## NCT

I see that the 12:45 off Nanning East is one of the slower ones that call at all stations. Even then, it seems to me that the timetabling still leaves a lot to be desired.

At busy times there are up to 5 trains per hour, but passengers don't actually get a high-frequency regular timetable, because there is no pattern and no clear distinction between fast and slow services.

There ought to be an half-hourly Nanning - Guilin non-stop (other than calling at Nanning East) service, which by my estimation should be possible in around 2hr30m (note this is from Naning, from Naning East it would only be 2hr17m), and a half-hourly service calling at Liuzhou, which would add about 4-5 minutes (at 200km/h). These combined would provide a clockface 4 tph service between Nanning and Guilin.

Only 1 tph needs to call at all stations. Given how closely the new line hugs the old one, there really ought to be more (grade separated) connections between the two lines, allowing trains to use the fast main line but the existing well located stations. Savings from the new parkway stations from new lines would more than offset the additional expenditure of the connections.

Also, for a brand new line, there are sections with very low turning radii. Especially perplexing is that curve after the junction west of Guilin Station on the Guilin bypassing line. Given there's a tunnel immediately after the curve anyway, is there any reason why a gentler curve was not chosen (the tunnel would need to start south of Wanfu Road, going underneath a built-up area before hitting the mountains, so twice as long as the one that got built, but China isn't exactly known for penny pinching...)?


----------



## Pansori

^^
You meant Nanning not Nanjing, right?


----------



## NCT

Oops, corrected now, thanks for pointing them out!


----------



## Short

> *Xili rail station plan sparks debate*
> _Shenzhen Daily 12th May 2016_
> 
> A DRAFT plan to build a high-speed railway station in Xili Subdistrict in Nanshan District to replace the existing Shenzhen West Railway Station has sparked debate.
> 
> During a recent meeting on rail transportation planning in Nanshan District, the Shenzhen Urban Transportation Planning and Research Institute put forward a plan to build a high-speed railway station in Xili. The station would have 11 platforms and 20 tracks.
> 
> The plan got support from the Nanshan District Government, which said it could stimulate development in its northern areas. However, residents doubt the necessity of building so many high-speed railway stations in the city. These is also another high-speed station planned for the Airport on the Shenzhen-Maoming HSR but this will be mostly for regional commuter services.
> 
> In a survey conducted by www.sznews.com, 70 percent of respondents disapproved of building a high-speed railway station in Xili.
> 
> A netizen said he objected to the plan because Shenzhen already has several high-speed railway stations. “The Shenzhen East Railway Station now operates 14 pairs of long distance trains, only 20 percent of its full capacity. At present, high-speed railway stations have been built in Futian, Pingshan and Guangming. Is it necessary to build another station when the facilities aren’t fully used?” he said.
> 
> But some netizens said Xili has become a new high-tech center and has many universities. One netizen said Xili station should be built underground to save land.
> 
> Zhao Fake, vice president with Shenzhen Urban Transportation Planning and Research Institute, said Shenzhen should make full use of the North Railway Station. Xili Station could serve as a station for regular trains, not high-speed trains.
> 
> Shenzhen has already planned to move the passenger service of Shenzhen West Railway Station in Qianhai to the existing Xili station, a cargo station. The rail in Qianhai will go underground to make way for the development of Qianhai.
> 
> Shenzhen rail construction officials said the plan is still under discussion and it will invite experts to review the overall layout of Shenzhen’s high-speed railway stations. It said it will seek public opinion about the plan.  (Han Ximin)


This is interesting news and I can see merit in the argument and debate. It would depend on if this station is destined to serve long-distance services or regional high-speed commuter services instead. There is a market to be served in the Nanshan district, despite constantly being under threat, Shenzhen West has managed to survive with several long distance conventional services.


----------



## hkskyline

*High-speed trains to get Wi-Fi in 3-5 years*
June 22, 2016
China Daily _Excerpt_

WiFi services are expected to be offered on China's high-speed trains in three to five years.

It was revealed that China Railway Rolling Stock Corporation (CRRC) is testing WiFi services on high-speed trains at the Modern Railways 2016, a railway technology and equipment expo held in Beijing from June 20 to 22.

Such WiFi services offer an integrated wireless platform for both passengers and the train crew, said a staff worker of CRRC.

WiFi services on high-speed trains are rather different from what is used in homes and offices.


----------



## Short

chornedsnorkack said:


> Also China is short of railway stations. How about the other stations between Shenzhen and Guangzhou?


It certainly is needed in regards to having a regional high-speed commuter railway across the Pearl River Delta & Guangdong. Quite a different from the national CRH long distance network.


----------



## flankerjun

today is 5 years anniversary of Beijing-Shanghai HSR.
450 million passengers in the past 5 years.


----------



## flankerjun




----------



## SSMEX

^^^ Was this a test run? 422 kph is significantly higher than anything planned or in operation and the guy is wearing a CRRC shirt.


----------



## flankerjun

SSMEX said:


> ^^^ Was this a test run? 422 kph is significantly higher than anything planned or in operation and the guy is wearing a CRRC shirt.


Zhengzhou-Xuzhou HSR test run


----------



## xjtyou

flankerjun said:


>


标准动车组测试


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flankerjun said:


> Zhengzhou-Xuzhou HSR test run


Is there a known due date for scheduled service on Xuzhou-Zhengzhou?


----------



## SamuraiBlue

luhai said:


> CRC chief responded there is no technical or safety reasons holding back return to 350 km/hr operation and and whether to return to 350km/hr operation will be a business case review.
> 
> http://news.xinhuanet.com/fortune/2016-06/07/c_1119007353.htm
> 
> 
> there is quite a few high profile news on this front, first NPC congress this year, then Xi, then this. Perhaps we'll see 350 km/hr again later this year?


I hear the Chinese HSR trainset are facing various mechanical failures which is straining their operation schedules.
Is this fact or just another rumor?


----------



## xjtyou

SamuraiBlue said:


> I hear the Chinese HSR trainset are facing various mechanical failures which is straining their operation schedules.
> Is this fact or just another rumor?


Where did you hear that?


----------



## SamuraiBlue

xjtyou said:


> Where did you hear that?


DuoWei News, I believe they ran an article on March 22nd reporting about the various problems the Chinese HSR trainset are having.

I read a Japanese translation of the article.


----------



## flankerjun

Beijing-Shenyang HSR is undergoing construction very quicly


----------



## luhai

SamuraiBlue said:


> DuoWei News, I believe they ran an article on March 22nd reporting about the various problems the Chinese HSR trainset are having.
> 
> 
> 
> I read a Japanese translation of the article.




Considering DuoWei news is the same boat as Epoch Times, I wouldn't use it as a source of information about China.


----------



## hkskyline

*Urumqi Station first in Xinjiang to use face recognition*
7 July 2016
China Daily


AJY_9541 by akira yamamoto, on Flickr

Train No D8802 departed Urumqi Railway Station on July 3, beginning trial operation of Xinjiang's biggest and most advanced railway station.

Construction of the station, located in Urumqi's economic and technological development zone, started in 2013. The north station building has now opened but the south one is still being built. Its highest passenger count per day is expected to reach 240,000.

During the trial period, six trains will head to Xinjiang's Hami city from Urumqi carrying over one thousand passengers each day.

The station is the first in Xinjiang to launch face identification for security screening and its ticket checking process is fully automatic.

Lu Yanhong, assistant station master, said there are enough service staff in the station answering passengers' questions to complement the many directional signs. The service counter is also available to assist travelers with train schedules or other matters.

She added that more service people will join the team when the trains increase. The counter will later use the "internet plus" to provide a more detailed search and reserve ticket service.


----------



## tjrgx

*World’s fastest crossing test of bullet trains*

https://www.facebook.com/XinhuaNewsAgency/videos/1327322300628544/




































China conducts first test of bullet trains running in opposite directions crossing each other at a relative speed over 800 kph, the world’s fastest for trains to be put into operation.

The test is held at a section of high-speed railway line in central China's Henan Province, which links Zhengzhou in Henan and Xuzhou in east China's Jiangsu Province. Each of the two trains in test is running at 420 kph at the time of crossing.

The crossing, which lasts for just a few seconds, is regarded as the ultimate challenge for bullet trains, experts say.

China has the world's longest high-speed rail network with over 19,000 km of track in service by the end of 2015.


At present, the fastest trains are operating at speeds of up to 310 kph in China


----------



## Sunfuns

What is the total length of a standard CRH train?


----------



## foxmulder

That is just cool. Fantastic achievement.


----------



## skyridgeline

tjrgx said:


> https://www.facebook.com/XinhuaNewsAgency/videos/1327322300628544/
> 
> China conducts first test of bullet trains running in opposite directions crossing each other at a relative speed over 800 kph, the world’s fastest for trains to be put into operation.
> 
> The test is held at a section of high-speed railway line in central China's Henan Province, which links Zhengzhou in Henan and Xuzhou in east China's Jiangsu Province. *Each of the two trains in test is running at 420 kph at the time of crossing.
> *
> The crossing, which lasts for just a few seconds, is regarded as the ultimate challenge for bullet trains, experts say.


----------



## SSMEX

I thought the record for conventionally-wheeled trains is the AGV at 575 kph and the record for two passing vehicles is the Japanese L0 Maglev at something like 1200 kph.


----------



## foxmulder

SSMEX said:


> I thought the record for conventionally-wheeled trains is the AGV at 575 kph and the record for two passing vehicles is the Japanese L0 Maglev at something like 1200 kph.


Two passing vehicles record belongs to two F-16s passing next to each other opposing directions by Thunderbirds team... :nuts::nuts:


----------



## Short

Went to visit a friend who just had a baby near E'bian, Sichuan. While there, they invited me to walk through the ancestral village and fields down to where a new high speed railway is commencing to build a tunnel. It is part of an extension of the Chengdu-E'mei Shan Line. However we had to beat a hasty retreat because they were blasting at the time.


----------



## hkskyline

*China's bullet trains make five billion trips*
Xinhua _Excerpt_
1 August 2016

There have been more than 5 billion passenger trips on China's world-renowned bullet trains in eight years, according to new data from the national rail operator. Since its debut in 2008, China's high-speed railway has seen an average annual growth of over 30 percent in passenger trips, the China Railway Corporation said on Thursday, the day after China announced plans to double its length of HSR by 2025.

In 2015 alone, over 1.1 billion trips were made on bullet trains in China, representing more than 45 percent of the country's total railway passenger delivery.

For a nation as large and populous as China, the HSR is charged with overcoming the "bottleneck" in the development of the railway, which is vital for mass transportation, said transportation expert Gu Zhongyuan.

Some 4,200 bullet trains operate on the HSR every day, facilitating over 4 million passenger trips, according to an employee with the official train ticketing website 12306.com.

One of the countless people to benefit is Wang Liya, a mother of two who lives in Guiyang, southwest China's Guizhou province, which used to be a 21-hour train trip away from her husband and the children's father's workplace of Guangzhou in south China's Guangdong province.

"It's now much more convenient to visit their dad," said Wang of a high-speed train service launched in late 2014 that cut the journey down to only four hours, enabling far more frequent family reunions.

There are many other reasons behind the stellar growth in passenger trips besides the speed, including accessibility, safety and punctuality, all of which have enabled the CRC to find more and more customers worldwide.

China's 19,000 km of high-speed track represents 60 percent of the world's total. It is part of a domestic network of more than 120,000 km of track, which now connect almost all the provincial capital cities and cities with over 500,000 residents.

"China is the world's largest HSR builder and operator, the best all-rounder in technical know-how and the most experienced manager," said Sun Zhang, a professor at Shanghai's Tongji University.

In July, the National Development and Reform Commission said that China would aim to have 38,000 km of HSR by 2025.

By 2020, one-fifth of the country's 150,000-km railway network will be HSR, connecting over 80 percent of major cities nationwide, said the NDRC.


----------



## Slartibartfas

1772 said:


> A European federation would probably not put alot of money into rail in remote parts of Sweden, while a swedish government has a bigger incentive to do this.


Nonsense. First of all, a European federation would consist of states which would still have the same priorities regarding regional public traffic. Secondly the EU invests a lot of money in rail infrastructure which are of greater European interest but would not be as much of a priority for the states themselves. Both layers together ansure pretty solid investment in all sorts of rail lines. 

Pretty much the same goes for the US of A. The reason why their passenger rail system is a joke is not founded in the political system. It is something that is rooted more in ideology and the aversion to public (co-)funding of rail infrastructure. China is different for sure to both the US and Europe in the way it takes a mountain of money into its hands to rocket start a 21st century rail network in a mere 2 decades. The US and Europe probably wouldn't even be able to pull that off even they wanted to. That is not all bad, after all, stiff rules, environmental protection etc do have some purpose after all, even if they are an obstacle for development.


----------



## Slartibartfas

孟天宝;134510680 said:


> I thought the Chengdu-Chongqing railway was making money. All the times I've been on it, it was full to the gills and even the standing room tickets were sold out. Why else would you build a third line (the Chengdu-Chongqing Intercity Line) if the first one wasn't making money? :bash: It's like a 90 minute trip so it far outweighs flying and Chengdu East is connected to the metro as is Chongqing's terminus.


Because you don't build railways to make money but to establish a proper infrastructure which is necessary for becoming a developed country. Of course, you have to build to meet demand but rail lines usually will be not very profitable, or profitable at all, even if they are needed and used heavily. 

Same goes for road infrastructure in many areas btw. If only profitable roads were built road infrastructure would be quite bad.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

For comparison, US Interstate Highway network is 77 000 km.
But it does not make up the whole road network of USA.


----------



## 1772

Slartibartfas said:


> Nonsense. First of all, a European federation would consist of states which would still have the same priorities regarding regional public traffic. Secondly the EU invests a lot of money in rail infrastructure which are of greater European interest but would not be as much of a priority for the states themselves. Both layers together ansure pretty solid investment in all sorts of rail lines.
> 
> Pretty much the same goes for the US of A. The reason why their passenger rail system is a joke is not founded in the political system. It is something that is rooted more in ideology and the aversion to public (co-)funding of rail infrastructure. China is different for sure to both the US and Europe in the way it takes a mountain of money into its hands to rocket start a 21st century rail network in a mere 2 decades. The US and Europe probably wouldn't even be able to pull that off even they wanted to. That is not all bad, after all, stiff rules, environmental protection etc do have some purpose after all, even if they are an obstacle for development.


What? US investments in roads/rail is mostly on a federal level. 
If every state was a country, the smaller states would have better infrastructure.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Germany is also federal and fairly big, and has good rail.


----------



## Slartibartfas

1772 said:


> What? US investments in roads/rail is mostly on a federal level.
> If every state was a country, the smaller states would have better infrastructure.


I am not an expert on the US in this regard but I would find it extremely weird if constructing municipal or local roads would be mostly decided on federal level.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Slartibartfas said:


> I am not an expert on the US in this regard but I would find it extremely weird if constructing municipal or local roads would be mostly decided on federal level.


Certainly the total length of US road network is quoted as 6 600 000 km, of which just 77 000 km is interstate highways. Who runs the rest?


----------



## Rayancito

dbhaskar said:


> Date: Aug 02, 106 | Source: ECNS Wire
> 
> 
> 
> It makes sense to build lines in Central and Western China before prices (labour, resettlement, infrastructure costs, etc.) get too high. Profit making lines in the east can offset some of the losses in other regions. However, I did expect HSR between Chongqing, Chengdu and Wuhan to be making a profit by now.


 When splittting the loss/profits of lines is a common mistake to forget about fiber optic revenue as well as profits coming from Stations. It happens that the addition of the result of the different lines makes a loss, while the company that operates the whole business makes a profit. The amount of money that comes from fiber optic and stations is relevant. I do not know if train stations in China are extremely profitable or not an if the fiber optic business is big or not, but i would not be surprised if it was the case.


----------



## Gusiluz

chornedsnorkack said:


> More details about the plans:
> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-network-to-double-in-latest-master-plan.html
> Some absurdities:
> 
> 
> But a list of the 16 main lines intended:


Thanks for the info!

There is a map with the new lines?
Because, for example, I can not imagine where will the Harbin-Hong Kong PDL (previously: Harbin-Beijing Jingha PDL) there are also the Jingguang PDL (Beijing-Hong Kong). Or is not it?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Gusiluz said:


> Thanks for the info!
> 
> There is a map with the new lines?
> Because, for example, I can not imagine where will the Harbin-Hong Kong PDL (previously: Harbin-Beijing Jingha PDL) there are also the Jingguang PDL (Beijing-Hong Kong). Or is not it?


I've seen a map somewhere.
But it would do little good if the names are all Chinese for us - and need Rectification of Names even in original Chinese.

Basically there are now 2 major routes between Beijing and Pearl River Delta: one goes via Wuhan, the other further east, via Nanchang.
Both of them go to Hong Kong, so picking just one of them to call after Hong Kong is causing confusion. Also, if there is a railway Harbin-Beijing, picking just one of the Beijing-Hong Kong routes as the Harbin-Hong Kong one is likewise confusing.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Thank you
I could find this page of Wikipedia in Chinese:
https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/“八纵八横”高速铁路主通道
Translated:
https://translate.google.es/transla...u=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/“八纵八横”高速铁路主通道
and has a map.



Tomorrow I will put my lines list with the new numbering for verification.


----------



## Gusiluz

*8 PDL North → South + 8 East → West*



In a somewhat hasty, but this is my list of the detailed route of each PDL line for verification.
Tomorrow I hope to put each section inaugurated indicating the line to which it belongs.

*North → South:*

01- Coastal PDL Dalian-Beihai (light blue): Dandong-Dalian-Shenyang-Qinhuangdao-Tianjin E.-Dongying-Weifang-Qingdao-Lianyungang-Yancheng-Nantong-Shanghai-Ningbo-Fuzhou-Xiamen-Shenzhen-Zhanjiang-Beihai (near Vietnam)

02- Harbin-Hong Kong PDL (dark green): Harbin-Changchun-Shenyang-Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Wuhan-Changsha-Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong and branch Guangzhou-Zhuhai (Macao). 

03- Beijing-Hong Kong PDL (red): Beijing-Hengshui-Heze-Shangqiu-Fuyang-Huanggang -Hefei-Nanchang-Jiujiang-Ganzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong (Kowloon) with another branch: Hefei-Fuzhou-Putian-Taipei (Taiwan).

04- Beijing-Shanghai PDL (yellow): Beijing-Tianjin W.-Jinan-Xuzhou-Nanjing-Shanghái; branch Nanjing-Hangzhou and branch Xuzhou-Bengbu-Hefei-Hangzhou. There is another yellow parallel line: Dongying-Weifang-Linyi-Huai'an-Yangzhou-Nantong-Shanghai.

05- Hohhot (Huhhot, west of Beijing)-Nanning (near Vietnam) PDL (purple): Hohhot-Datong-Taiyuan-Zhengzhou-Changde-Yiyang-Shaoyang-Xiangyang-Yongzhou-Guilin-Nanning. 

06- Beijing-Kunming PDL (deep purple): Beijing-Taiyuan-Xi'an-Chengdu-Chongqing-Kunming. 

07- Baotou/Yinchuan (west of Beijing)-Haikou (in Hainan) PDL (dark blue): branch Yinchuan-Xi'an and main line Baotou-Yan'an-Xi'an-Chongqing-Guiyang-Nanning-Zhanjiang-Haikou.

08- Xining-Guangzhou PDL (light purple): Xining-Lanzhou-Chengdu-Chongqing-Guiyang-Guangzhou. 


*East → West:*

09- Qingdao-Yinchuan PDL (light green): Qingdao-Jinan-Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan-Yinchuan. 

10- Lianyungang-Urumqi PDL (brown): Lianyungang-Xuzhou-Zhengzhou-Xi'an-Lanzhou-Xining-Urumqi. 

11- Shanghai-Kunming PDL (light blue): Shanghai-Hangzhou-Nanchang-Changsha-Guiyang-Kunming.

12- Shanghai-Chengdu PDL (greenish blue): Shanghai-Nanjing-Hefei-Wuhan-Chongqing-Chengdu. Branches: Anqing-Jiujiang, Yichang-Chongqing, Lichuan-Wanzhou and Chengdu-Suining.

13- Suifenhe (Russian border East)-Manzhouli (Russian border in Inner Mongolia) PDL (light blue): Suifenhe-Mudanjiang-Harbin-Qiqihar-Hailar-Manzhouli. 

14- Beijing-Lanzhou PDL (brown green): Beijing-Hohhot-Yinchuan-Lanzhou. 

15- Xiamen-Chongqing PDL (pink): Xiamen-Longyan-Ganzhou-Changsha-Chongqing

16- Guangzhou-Kunming PDL (dark gray): Guangzhou-Nanning-Kunming


The numbers are not official; the first four lines of each class are those known so far.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Gusiluz said:


> In a somewhat hasty, but this is my list of the detailed route of each PDL line for verification.
> *North → South:*
> 05- Hohhot (Huhhot, west of Beijing)-Nanning (near Vietnam) PDL (purple): Hohhot-Datong-Taiyuan-Zhengzhou-Changde-Yiyang-Shaoyang-Xiangyang-Yongzhou-Guilin-Nanning.


Looks more like orange?


----------



## foxmulder

So 4+4 has been upgraded to 8+8... I like it.


----------



## hkskyline

High Speed Train - China. by Harry 1010, on Flickr


----------



## hightower1

Gusiluz said:


> In a somewhat hasty, but this is my list of the detailed route of each PDL line for verification.
> Tomorrow I hope to put each section inaugurated indicating the line to which it belongs.
> 
> *North → South:*
> 
> 01- Coastal PDL Dalian-Beihai (light blue): Dandong-Dalian-Shenyang-Qinhuangdao-Tianjin E.-Dongying-Weifang-Qingdao-Lianyungang-Yancheng-Nantong-Shanghai-Ningbo-Fuzhou-Xiamen-Shenzhen-Zhanjiang-Beihai (near Vietnam)
> 
> 02- Harbin-Hong Kong PDL (dark green): Harbin-Changchun-Shenyang-Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Wuhan-Changsha-Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong and branch Guangzhou-Zhuhai (Macao).
> 
> 03- Beijing-Hong Kong PDL (red): Beijing-Hengshui-Heze-Shangqiu-Fuyang-Huanggang -Hefei-Nanchang-Jiujiang-Ganzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong (Kowloon) with another branch: Hefei-Fuzhou-Putian-Taipei (Taiwan).
> 
> 04- Beijing-Shanghai PDL (yellow): Beijing-Tianjin W.-Jinan-Xuzhou-Nanjing-Shanghái; branch Nanjing-Hangzhou and branch Xuzhou-Bengbu-Hefei-Hangzhou. There is another yellow parallel line: Dongying-Weifang-Linyi-Huai'an-Yangzhou-Nantong-Shanghai.
> 
> 05- Hohhot (Huhhot, west of Beijing)-Nanning (near Vietnam) PDL (purple): Hohhot-Datong-Taiyuan-Zhengzhou-Changde-Yiyang-Shaoyang-Xiangyang-Yongzhou-Guilin-Nanning.
> 
> 06- Beijing-Kunming PDL (deep purple): Beijing-Taiyuan-Xi'an-Chengdu-Chongqing-Kunming.
> 
> 07- Baotou/Yinchuan (west of Beijing)-Haikou (in Hainan) PDL (dark blue): branch Yinchuan-Xi'an and main line Baotou-Yan'an-Xi'an-Chongqing-Guiyang-Nanning-Zhanjiang-Haikou.
> 
> 08- Xining-Guangzhou PDL (light purple): Xining-Lanzhou-Chengdu-Chongqing-Guiyang-Guangzhou.
> 
> 
> *East → West:*
> 
> 09- Qingdao-Yinchuan PDL (light green): Qingdao-Jinan-Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan-Yinchuan.
> 
> 10- Lianyungang-Urumqi PDL (brown): Lianyungang-Xuzhou-Zhengzhou-Xi'an-Lanzhou-Xining-Urumqi.
> 
> 11- Shanghai-Kunming PDL (light blue): Shanghai-Hangzhou-Nanchang-Changsha-Guiyang-Kunming.
> 
> 12- Shanghai-Chengdu PDL (greenish blue): Shanghai-Nanjing-Hefei-Wuhan-Chongqing-Chengdu. Branches: Anqing-Jiujiang, Yichang-Chongqing, Lichuan-Wanzhou and Chengdu-Suining.
> 
> 13- Suifenhe (Russian border East)-Manzhouli (Russian border in Inner Mongolia) PDL (light blue): Suifenhe-Mudanjiang-Harbin-Qiqihar-Hailar-Manzhouli.
> 
> 14- Beijing-Lanzhou PDL (brown green): Beijing-Hohhot-Yinchuan-Lanzhou.
> 
> 15- Xiamen-Chongqing PDL (pink): Xiamen-Longyan-Ganzhou-Changsha-Chongqing
> 
> 16- Guangzhou-Kunming PDL (dark gray): Guangzhou-Nanning-Kunming
> 
> 
> The numbers are not official; the first four lines of each class are those known so far.



Any chance of the people in taipai agreeing to a HSR line connecting them to the mainland?


----------



## Gusiluz

*Sections in service each PDL*

I just upgraded my list of sections based on the UIC list. Comments and corrections are welcome.

I prefer to put an image to be better understood. The header means: 
Lines in service - Km/h (according to UIC / according to media) - Opened (day / month / year) - Km line - PDL to which it belongs.





In Wikipedia (In Spanish) it is the same and also can be copied in Calc / Excel format. There is also the detail of each PDL line and there are some changes from what I wore yesterday: the Beijing-Tianjin line (not on the map) and some branches. There are many more data (passengers, trains) and, I repeat: comments and corrections are welcome.


In this table the amount of km opened each year and their proportion of the total appears; it is not a year on the previous one, but each year the total.
For example: the largest number of km to 350 km/h was in 2012, but to 250 was in 2014.


----------



## flankerjun

Gusiluz said:


> In a somewhat hasty, but this is my list of the detailed route of each PDL line for verification.
> Tomorrow I hope to put each section inaugurated indicating the line to which it belongs.
> 
> *North → South:*
> 
> 01- Coastal PDL Dalian-Beihai (light blue): Dandong-Dalian-Shenyang-Qinhuangdao-Tianjin E.-Dongying-Weifang-Qingdao-Lianyungang-Yancheng-Nantong-Shanghai-Ningbo-Fuzhou-Xiamen-Shenzhen-Zhanjiang-Beihai (near Vietnam)
> 
> 02- Harbin-Hong Kong PDL (dark green): Harbin-Changchun-Shenyang-Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Wuhan-Changsha-Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong and branch Guangzhou-Zhuhai (Macao).
> 
> 03- Beijing-Hong Kong PDL (red): Beijing-Hengshui-Heze-Shangqiu-Fuyang-Huanggang -Hefei-Nanchang-Jiujiang-Ganzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong (Kowloon) with another branch: Hefei-Fuzhou-Putian-Taipei (Taiwan).
> 
> 04- Beijing-Shanghai PDL (yellow): Beijing-Tianjin W.-Jinan-Xuzhou-Nanjing-Shanghái; branch Nanjing-Hangzhou and branch Xuzhou-Bengbu-Hefei-Hangzhou. There is another yellow parallel line: Dongying-Weifang-Linyi-Huai'an-Yangzhou-Nantong-Shanghai.
> 
> 05- Hohhot (Huhhot, west of Beijing)-Nanning (near Vietnam) PDL (purple): Hohhot-Datong-Taiyuan-Zhengzhou-Changde-Yiyang-Shaoyang-Xiangyang-Yongzhou-Guilin-Nanning.
> 
> 06- Beijing-Kunming PDL (deep purple): Beijing-Taiyuan-Xi'an-Chengdu-Chongqing-Kunming.
> 
> 07- Baotou/Yinchuan (west of Beijing)-Haikou (in Hainan) PDL (dark blue): branch Yinchuan-Xi'an and main line Baotou-Yan'an-Xi'an-Chongqing-Guiyang-Nanning-Zhanjiang-Haikou.
> 
> 08- Xining-Guangzhou PDL (light purple): Xining-Lanzhou-Chengdu-Chongqing-Guiyang-Guangzhou.
> 
> 
> *East → West:*
> 
> 09- Qingdao-Yinchuan PDL (light green): Qingdao-Jinan-Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan-Yinchuan.
> 
> 10- Lianyungang-Urumqi PDL (brown): Lianyungang-Xuzhou-Zhengzhou-Xi'an-Lanzhou-Xining-Urumqi.
> 
> 11- Shanghai-Kunming PDL (light blue): Shanghai-Hangzhou-Nanchang-Changsha-Guiyang-Kunming.
> 
> 12- Shanghai-Chengdu PDL (greenish blue): Shanghai-Nanjing-Hefei-Wuhan-Chongqing-Chengdu. Branches: Anqing-Jiujiang, Yichang-Chongqing, Lichuan-Wanzhou and Chengdu-Suining.
> 
> 13- Suifenhe (Russian border East)-Manzhouli (Russian border in Inner Mongolia) PDL (light blue): Suifenhe-Mudanjiang-Harbin-Qiqihar-Hailar-Manzhouli.
> 
> 14- Beijing-Lanzhou PDL (brown green): Beijing-Hohhot-Yinchuan-Lanzhou.
> 
> 15- Xiamen-Chongqing PDL (pink): Xiamen-Longyan-Ganzhou-Changsha-Chongqing
> 
> 16- Guangzhou-Kunming PDL (dark gray): Guangzhou-Nanning-Kunming
> 
> 
> The numbers are not official; the first four lines of each class are those known so far.


actually there are far more PDL lines except 8+8 HSR


----------



## flankerjun




----------



## Gusiluz

*Map 8 + 8 PDL translated*

Well I pretend to know and put in place all I can.




_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The light green line parallel to the 12 is also, in some sections, line 12


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Gusiluz said:


> *North → South:*
> 
> 06- Beijing-Kunming PDL (deep purple): Beijing-Taiyuan-Xi'an-Chengdu-Chongqing-Kunming.


It appears not to go Chengdu-Kunming via Chongqing, but rather have a branch to Chonqing from some point between Chengdu and Kunming.


----------



## hkskyline

Urumqi's new railway station for high-speed rails in Urumqi on Aug 12, 2016. The station, which is the railway junction with the largest scale and the most advanced facilities in Xinjiang, was put into use on Friday. 

Xinhua


----------



## Gusiluz

chornedsnorkack said:


> It appears not to go Chengdu-Kunming via Chongqing, but rather have a branch to Chonqing from some point between Chengdu and Kunming.


Yeah right.
I think in the last map just above your message perfectly see that the line is Chengdu-Yibin-Kunming, and Chongqing-Yibin branch.

With the translated map were some changes.
The new list based on the map and not translated from Chinese Wikipedia is this:


----------



## Gusiluz

*8 PDL North → South + 8 East → West:*



*PDL North → South:*

01- Coastal PDL Dalian-Beihai (light blue): Dandong-Dalian-Yingkou-Shenyang-Panjin-Qinhuangdao-Tianjin East-Dongying-Weifang-Qingdao-Lianyungang-Yancheng-Nantong-Shanghai-Hangzhou-Ningbo-Fuzhou-Xiamen-Shenzhen-Zhanjiang-Beihai-Fangchenggang (near Vietnam). Branches: Yingkou-Panjin, Tianjin East-Beijing (Pekín) and Weifang/Qingdao-Yantai.

02- Harbin-Hong Kong PDL (dark green): Harbin-Changchun-Shenyang-Beijing (Pekín)-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Wuhan-Changsha-Guangzhou (Cantón)-Zhuhai (Macao). Branches: Changchun-Jilin-Hunchun (frontera con Rusia and Corea) and Guangzhou- Shenzhen. 

03- Beijing-Hong Kong PDL (red): Beijing (Pekín)-Hengshui-Heze-Shangqiu-Fuyang-Huanggang-Jiujiang-Nanchang-Ganzhou-Shenzhen-Futian-West Kowloon (Hong Kong). Branches: Nanchang-Putian/Fuzhou, Hefei-Jiujiang and Fuyang-Hefei-Nanping-Fuzhou-Taipei (Taiwan).

04- Beijing-Shanghai PDL (yellow): Beijing (Pekín)-Tianjin West-Jinan-Xuzhou-Nanjing-Shanghai; branche Nanjing-Hangzhou and branche Bengbu-Hefei-Hangzhou. There will also be a second parallel line: Weifang-Linyi-Huai'an-Yangzhou-Nantong.

05- Hohhot-Nanning PDL (purple): Hohhot (Huhhot, west of Beijing)-Datong-Taiyuan-Zhengzhou- Xiangyang-Changde-Yiyang-Shaoyang-Yongzhou-Guilin-Liuzhou-Nanning (near Vietnam).

06- Beijing-Kunming PDL (deep purple): Beijing (Pekín)-Datong-Taiyuan-Xi'an-Chengdu-Yibin-Kunming. Branches: Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan and Chongqing-Yibin.

07- Baotou/Yinchuan-Haikou PDL (dark blue): Baotou (west of Beijing)-Yan'an-Xi'an-Chongqing-Guiyang-Nanning-Qinzhou-Beihai-Zhanjiang-Haikou-Hainan circle (Hainan) and branche Yinchuan-Xi'an.

08- Xining-Guangzhou PDL (light purple): Xining-Rongwo-Chengdu-Guiyang-Guangzhou (Cantón) and branche Lanzhou-Rongwo. 

*PDL East → West:*

09- Qingdao-Yinchuan PDL (light green): Qingdao-Jinan-Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan-Yinchuan. 

10- Lianyungang-Urumqi PDL (brown): Lianyungang-Xuzhou-Zhengzhou-Xi'an-Baoji-Lanzhou-Hami-Urumqi.

11- Shanghai-Kunming PDL (light blue): Shanghai-Hangzhou-Nanchang-Changsha-Xinhuang-Guiyang-Kunming.

12- Shanghai-Chengdu PDL (greenish blue): Shanghai-Nanjing-Hefei-Wuhan-Yichang-Chongqing-Chengdu. Branches: Nanjing-Anqing-Jiujiang, Lichuan-Wanzhou and Chengdu-Suining.

13- Suifenhe-Manzhouli PDL (light blue): Suifenhe (Russian border East)-Mudanjiang-Harbin-Qiqihar-Hailar-Manzhouli (Russian border in Inner Mongolia). 

14- Beijing-Lanzhou PDL (brown green): Beijing (Pekín)-Hohhot-Yinchuan-Lanzhou.

15- Xiamen-Chongqing PDL (pink): Xiamen-Longyan-Ganzhou-Changsha-Yiyang-Changde-Chongqing.

16- Guangzhou-Kunming PDL (dark gray): Guangzhou (Cantón)-Nanning-Kunming.




_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The light green line parallel to the 12 is also, in some sections, line 12


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Gusiluz said:


> *PDL North → South:*
> 05- Hohhot-Nanning PDL (purple): Hohhot (Huhhot, west of Beijing)-Datong-Taiyuan-Zhengzhou- Xiangyang-Changde-Yiyang-Shaoyang-Yongzhou-Guilin-Liuzhou-Nanning (near Vietnam).


It still looks orange rather than purple.


----------



## ccdk

*Two strikes, you're out (for a while)! China's high-speed rails to smokers*
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1000827.shtml

Train passengers caught smoking two times on China's high-speed rails now face a temporary ban from buying tickets.

Since August 15, riders aboard high-speed trains who are spotted puffing in non-designated smoking areas not only face an up to 2,000 yuan ($320), on-the-spot fine, but also will be flagged for the violation in China's ticketing database, according to the new China Railway Engineering Corporation regulation.

The first-time offenders will be required to sign an "agreement" at a railway service center in order to purchase their next ticket.

A second offense results in a ban from high-speed (G, D, C class train) ticket purchases both at station windows and online.

The length of the ban was not reported.

The rule does not apply to travel on conventional rail (Z, T, K class trains).

The regulation sparked debate on social media, particularly over the length of the ban.

Some suggested incremental bans based on severity of the case between one and 10 years.

Numerous smoke detectors are installed throughout high-speed rail trains, including cabins, toilets and dining cars, a railway insider told the Yangtze Evening News.


----------



## hkskyline

Plenty smoke on the platform after getting off trains. I presume that area should be non-smoking as well?


----------



## :jax:

Gusiluz said:


> Well I pretend to know and put in place all I can.


The little kink below Beijing at line 3 (the red line), does that mean that it will have a station at the new Daxing airport?


----------



## Gusiluz

*8 + 8 PDL*

Update of my previous posts.

I did not have time to translate, sorry, but I think it is understood that basically means is to count only the sections included in the 8 + 8 PDL and Beijing-Tianjin West and Yingkou-Panjin.



Gusiluz said:


> Según el XIII Plan Quinquenal aprobado recientemente, la Comisión Nacional de Desarrollo y Reformas (NDRC) espera que la longitud de las líneas dedicadas únicamente al transporte de viajeros (PDL) pase de los 19.000 km de finales de 2015 (en todo el mundo hay 31.951 según la UIC) a los 30.000 en 2020, y alcance los 38.000 en 2025, llegando a todas las ciudades de más de cinco millones de habitantes. La concepción de la red pasará de la actual, con cuatro corredores principales Norte-Sur y otros cuatro Este-Oeste, a otra con el doble de corredores:
> 
> *NORTE→SUR*
> 01– Dalian-Beihai Coastal PDL (azul claro): Dandong-Dalian-Yingkou-Shenyang-Panjin-Qinhuangdao-Tianjin West-Dongying-Weifang-Qingdao-Lianyungang-Yancheng-Nantong-Shanghái-Hangzhou-Ningbo-Fuzhou-Xiamen-Shenzhen-Zhanjiang-Beihai-Fangchenggang (cerca de Vietnam). Ramales: Yingkou-Panjin, Tianjin West-Beijing (Pekín) y Weifang/Qingdao-Yantai.
> 02– Harbin-Hong Kong PDL (verde oscuro): Harbin-Changchun-Shenyang-Beijing (Pekín)-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Wuhan-Changsha-Guangzhou (Cantón)-Zhuhai (Macao). Ramal: Guangzhou-Shenzhen.
> 03– Beijing-Hong Kong PDL (rojo): Beijing (Pekín)-Hengshui-Heze-Shangqiu-Fuyang-Huanggang-Jiujiang-Nanchang-Ganzhou-Shenzhen-Futian-West Kowloon (Hong Kong). Ramales: Nanchang-Putian/Fuzhou, Hefei-Jiujiang y Fuyang-Hefei-Nanping-Fuzhou-Taipéi (en la isla de Taiwán).
> 04– Beijing-Shanghái PDL (amarillo): Beijing (Pekín)-Tianjin South-Jinan-Xuzhou-Nanjing-Shanghái; ramal Nanjing-Hangzhou y ramal Bengbu-Hefei-Hangzhou.
> También habrá una segunda línea paralela: Weifang-Linyi-Huai'an-Yangzhou-Nantong.
> 05– Hohhot-Nanning PDL (marrón claro): Hohhot (Huhhot, al oeste de Beijing)-Datong-Taiyuan-Zhengzhou- Xiangyang-Changde-Yiyang-Shaoyang-Yongzhou-Guilin-Liuzhou-Nanning (cerca de Vietnam).
> 06– Beijing-Kunming PDL (morado): Beijing (Pekín)-Datong-Taiyuan-Xi'an-Chengdu-Yibin-Kunming. Ramales: Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan y Chongqing-Yibin.
> 07– Baotou/Yinchuan-Haikou PDL (azul oscuro): Baotou (al oeste de Beijing)-Yan'an-Xi'an-Chongqing-Guiyang-Nanning-Qinzhou-Beihai-Zhanjiang-Haikou-Hainan circle (en la isla de Hainan) y ramal Yinchuan-Xi'an.
> 08– Xining-Guangzhou PDL (lila): Xining-Rongwo-Chengdu-Guiyang-Guangzhou (Cantón) y ramal Lanzhou-Rongwo.
> 
> *ESTE→OESTE*
> 09– Qingdao-Yinchuan PDL (verde claro): Qingdao-Jinan-Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan-Yinchuan.
> 10– Lianyungang-Urumqi PDL (marrón): Lianyungang-Xuzhou-Zhengzhou-Xi'an-Baoji-Lanzhou-Hami-Urumqi.
> 11– Shanghái-Kunming PDL (azul): Shanghái-Hangzhou-Nanchang-Changsha-Xinhuang-Guiyang-Kunming.
> 12– Shanghái-Chengdu PDL (dos líneas entrelazadas centrales: verde oscuro y verde claro): Shanghái-Nanjing-Hefei-Wuhan-Yichang-Chongqing-Chengdu.
> También habrá una segunda línea entrelazada: Nanjing-Anqing-Jiujiang-Wuhan-Xiangyang-Wanzhou-Suining-Chengdu.
> 13– Suifenhe-Manzhouli PDL (azul claro, al norte): Suifenhe (frontera rusa al este)-Mudanjiang-Harbin-Qiqihar-Hailar-Manzhouli (frontera rusa en Mongolia interior).
> 14– Beijing-Lanzhou PDL (marrón verdoso): Beijing (Pekín)-Hohhot-Yinchuan-Lanzhou.
> 15– Xiamen-Chongqing PDL (rosa): Xiamen-Longyan-Ganzhou-Changsha-Yiyang-Changde-Chongqing.
> 16– Guangzhou-Kunming PDL (gris oscuro): Guangzhou (Cantón)-Nanning-Kunming.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tramos duplicados: Beijing-Tianjin y Shanghái-Nanjing, todos ellos a 309 km/h; además, durante los primeros 15 km desde Guangzhou South hasta Foshan (hacia el norte) hay 3 PDL juntas (6 vías): hacia Wuhan, Guiyang y Nanning. Tramos a duplicar: Beijing-Kalgan, Beijing-Shijiazhuang, Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan, Datong-Taiyuan, Weifang-Qingdao, Shanghái-Hangzhou, Chengdu-Yibin y Zhanjiang-Beihai. Está previsto construir líneas desde el continente hasta las islas de Hainan y de Taiwán.
> 
> *Tramos en servicio de cada corredor principal (PDL):*
> 01– Dalian-Beihai Coastal PDL: Dalian-Beijing, Yingkou-Panjin, Hangzhou-Shenzhen y Maoming-Zhanjiang: 3.287 km
> 02– Harbin-Hong Kong PDL: Harbin-Shenyang y Beijing-Zhuhai: 2.830 km
> 03– Beijing-Hong Kong PDL: Jiujiang-Nanchang, Hefei-Fuzhou, Nanchang-Fuzhou y Shenzhen-Futian: 1.498 km
> 04– Beijing-Shanghái PDL: Beijing-Shanghái, Bengbu-Hefei y Nanjing-Hangzhou: 1.698 km
> 05– Hohhot-Nanning PDL: Guilin-Nanning: 368 km
> 06– Beijing-Kunming PDL: Taiyuan-Xi’an: 599 km
> 07– Baotou/Yinchuan-Haikou PDL: Nanning-Beihai y Hainan Circle: 858 km
> 08– Xining-Guangzhou PDL: Guiyang-Guangzhou: 857 km
> 09– Qingdao-Yinchuan PDL: Qingdao-Jinan y Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan: 552 km
> 10– Lianyungang-Urumqi PDL: Zhengzhou-Baoji y Lanzhou-Urumqi: 2.382 km
> 11– Shanghái-Kunming PDL: Shanghái-Guiyang: 1.793 km
> 12– Shanghái-Chengdu PDL: Shanghái-Chengdu; 2ª línea: Nanjing-Anqing, Huangshi-Wuhan-Xiaogan y Suining-Chengdu: 2.531 km
> 13– Suifenhe-Manzhouli PDL: Harbin-Qiqihar: 281 km
> 14– Beijing-Lanzhou PDL: ninguno
> 15– Xiamen-Chongqing PDL: Longyan-Xiamen: 171 km
> 16– Guangzhou-Kunming PDL: Guangzhou-Baise: 799 km
> 
> *Total*: 20.504 km de PDL (9.334 para 309 km/h y 11.170 para 250 km/h). Según la UIC: 19.057.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Estos son los *km inaugurados cada año*. Se puede apreciar, por ejemplo, que el mayor número de km para 300 km/h fue en 2012, mientras que para 250 km/h fue en 2014.
> 
> 
> 
> Mapa interactivo actualizado al 20/05/2016:
> 
> 
> 
> Más información (viajeros, trenes y servicios hasta el 31/12/2015), fotografías de los nuevos trenes, incluyendo el Tren Chino Estándar de AV (en servicio desde hace ayer) y fuentes en la Wikipedia.


----------



## Pansori

Does the coastal line Shenzhen-Shanghai have G services?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Just because a train is designated G does not mean it operates at 300 km/h everywhere. My understanding is that trains which run at 300 km/h for part of the route, and on 200 km/h lines limited to 200 km/h for another part of the route are designated G.


----------



## gaz2424

What's the price of a ticket for a train ride from Beijing to Harbin and how long does it take to get there?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

gaz2424 said:


> What's the price of a ticket for a train ride from Beijing to Harbin and how long does it take to get there?


Slow trains take from 10:03 (Z17) to 20:37 (K4729). Hard seat mostly 152 yuan 5 jiao.
D train takes 8:39, second class seat 313 yuan 5 jiao.
G trains take 7:06-7:07, second class seat 541 yuan 5 jiao.


----------



## gaz2424

Okay... how much is that in Euros? I want to compare the ticket price with prices in Europe.


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## chornedsnorkack

1€=7 yuan 4 jiao 7 fen


----------



## foxmulder

I am always amazed how cheap the tickets are..


----------



## hkskyline

The ticket prices are set relative to local incomes, and longer distance trips are unaffordable for the masses.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> The ticket prices are set relative to local incomes, and longer distance trips are unaffordable for the masses.


Relative to Chinese, not local incomes.
Consider a trip from Guizhou - till 2014, the poorest province of China - to Shanghai, like migrating to work, or back to work after a New Year.
Guiyang-Shanghai by slow train is 2022 km.
5 K trains run - but not a single number, T or Z train.
Trip time 1:02:10 to 1:05:49.
Hard seat for 26...30 hours is 229 yuan, which is €30 and some cents.
Guiyang North-Shanghai Hongqiao by CRH is 1789 km
5 G trains run - but no D trains.
Trip time 8:57 to 9:45.
Second class seat for 9...10 hours is 734 yuan 5 jiao, which is €98 and some cents.

So, can masses travel longer distance by train?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

SSMEX said:


> . . . and it runs only once per day with sleeper cars.


And?
Beijing-Moscow runs, with sleeper trains, twice a week, once via Manchuria and once via Mongolia.
Transmanchurian takes 146 or so hours.
There is now no train Beijing-Urumqu-Alashankou-Astana or Beijing-Urumqi-Khorgos-Almaty.
So, if there were a high speed sleeper train Beijing-Urumqi-Astana-Moscow, arriving in 2 days not 6, how often should it run?


----------



## hkskyline

Pansori said:


> So you only meant routes with no realistic alternatives such as Shanghai-Qingdao route which has no direct railway between them? You should have clarified that from the beginning because I thought you were applying this as a general rule. Admittedly that's a strange example to give. Comparing bus to a railway which isn't used by anyone, not only 'migrant workers' for very obvious geographical (not pricing) reasons.
> 
> But what about realistic routes that have alternative modes of transport that are comparable by distance?
> 
> Which option do masses choose to go on Beijing-Xi'an? Guangzhou-Nanning? Shanghai-Chiongqing?
> 
> a) Bus
> a) G train
> b) D train
> 
> How do price options compare for those routes between different modes of transport?


There are direct G trains running between Shanghai and Qingdao without any need for changes. They take 6.5 hours and go via Jinan then out towards the coast.

6.5 hours is probably a stretch to the limit for HSR vs. flying with minimal time savings although that is considering no delays at the airport.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> There are direct G trains running between Shanghai and Qingdao without any need for changes. They take 6.5 hours and go via Jinan then out towards the coast.
> 
> 6.5 hours is probably a stretch to the limit for HSR vs. flying with minimal time savings although that is considering no delays at the airport.


Yes, no need for changes. 
But since they make a long detour, while a road makes a shortcut, that affects the price of buses.
Compare a fairly direct HSR route. Beijing-Changsha.
There are 4 G trains taking from 5:38 (G79) to 6:01 (G487), and further 12 take from 6:29 (G69 and G503) to 7:28 (G491).
Second class seat all 649 yuan.
How do buses compare?


----------



## Pansori

chornedsnorkack said:


> How do buses compare?


I suppose hkskyline will answer this question regarding Guangzhou-Changsha and Shanghai-Chongqing routes.


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Compare a fairly direct HSR route. Beijing-Changsha.
> There are 4 G trains taking from 5:38 (G79) to 6:01 (G487), and further 12 take from 6:29 (G69 and G503) to 7:28 (G491).
> Second class seat all 649 yuan.
> How do buses compare?


You can try this search engine : http://www.keyunzhan.com 

Beijing to Changsha bus for 320RMB.

Use it for your other city combinations.


----------



## Pansori

hkskyline said:


> You can try this search engine : http://www.keyunzhan.com
> 
> Beijing to Changsha bus for 320RMB.
> 
> Use it for your other city combinations.


Let's have a look.

Guangzhou-Nanning

Bus: ¥150-¥202, takes 8-10 hours
D train: ¥169-¥175, takes about 4 hours

My question to you: which option do migrant masses take from Guangzhou to Nanning - bus or high-speed train?


----------



## luhai

Pansori said:


> Let's have a look.
> 
> Guangzhou-Nanning
> 
> Bus: ¥150-¥202, takes 8-10 hours
> D train: ¥169-¥175, takes about 4 hours
> 
> My question to you: which option do migrant masses take from Guangzhou to Nanning - bus or high-speed train?




none of us here actually knows unless we start to conduct surveys...


----------



## Pansori

luhai said:


> none of us here actually knows unless we start to conduct surveys...


Some people here made explicit claims about their knowledge of the matter. Therefore we are awaiting their comment on Guangzhou-Nanning route.


----------



## hkskyline

You can refer to this article to get some context on how dependent migrants are on buses during the annual CNY rush : http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2013-01/27/c_132130148.htm

A simple google search can yield lots of useful information if you don't know enough about the topic.

I suggest you do some research yourself on pricing and come back when you find anomalies that you would like to discuss.


----------



## Pansori

hkskyline said:


> You can refer to this article to get some context on how dependent migrants are on buses during the annual CNY rush : http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2013-01/27/c_132130148.htm
> 
> A simple google search can yield lots of useful information if you don't know enough about the topic.
> 
> I suggest you do some research yourself on pricing and come back when you find anomalies that you would like to discuss.


No answer to the below question then?



Pansori said:


> Let's have a look.
> 
> Guangzhou-Nanning
> 
> Bus: ¥150-¥202, takes 8-10 hours
> D train: ¥169-¥175, takes about 4 hours
> 
> My question to you: which option do migrant masses take from Guangzhou to Nanning - bus or high-speed train?


----------



## hkskyline

I'm here for a constructive and meaningful discussion with people who are knowledgeable of at least the basics on this topic - who rides these trains, where the network is going, their impact on the national transport grid, etc. I'm not here to be a pricing search engine. Do it yourself.


----------



## Short

It should be good to see this new renovated station. I am glad they did not bulldoze it for a modern building in typical style. Together with the east-west railway across Shenzhen to Nanshan and Qianhai, it will be very convenient.



> *Pinghu station to be put into operation soon*
> _Shenzhen Daily
> September 22nd 2016
> Han Ximin_
> 
> PINGHU Railway Station, after a two-year facelift, will be put into operation Monday, serving 148 intercity bullet trains between Shenzhen and Guangzhou every day, sources from Guangzhou Railway Group Corp. said.
> 
> Travelers can book train tickets for intercity trains through www.12306.cn., ticket booking hotlines, or at ticket counters and outlets starting from yesterday.
> 
> The railway station will serve travelers to Shantou, Chaozhou and Xiamen through the Xiamen-Shenzhen High-speed Railway.
> 
> The Huizhou-Shenzhen intercity rail, which is now under planning, will be linked with Pinghu Station through Nanping railway. The Shenzhen section of the rail runs 70 kilometers with 10 stations. A trip to Nanshan and Qianhai will take about 30 minutes when the rail is put into operation.
> 
> Pinghu station will be expanded into a transport hub, where Metro Line 10, which links to Futian Checkpoint, and Metro Line 17, which links to Luohu, will meet.
> 
> In 2014, the Guangzhou-Shenzhen Railway Co. decided to renovate the century-old station that had been inactive for eight years. The opening of the station will benefit about 1.7 million people in Pinghu and neighboring Fenggang and Guanlan.
> 
> The station was put into use in October 1911, when the Guangzhou-Kowloon Railway was put into operation. Service was suspended in 2006.
> 
> The Pinghu subdistrict government has budgeted 50 million yuan (US$7.49 million) in 2016 to improve the urban environment, landscaping and infrastructure around the railway station.





> *Work on new railway to accelerate*
> _Shenzhen Daily
> September 22nd 2016
> _
> Shenzhen and Guangzhou Railway Group Corp. will speed up construction on the eastern section of the Shenzhen-Maoming High-speed Railway, according to an agreement signed recently.
> 
> The eastern section will run between Shenzhen and Jiangmen, spanning over the Pearl River.
> 
> Work on the western section of the line, between Jiangmen and Maoming, is going smoothly with the 1,000th Y-shape beam successfully erected Sept. 19, paving the way for the opening of the west section in 2018.
> 
> The Shenzhen-Maoming rail, which runs 388 kilometers from Shenzhen North Station to Maoming East Station, is part of China’s coastal railway network.
> The western section runs 266 kilometers and covers Jiangmen, Yangjiang and Maoming in western Guangdong. The section has 15 stations and is designated for a speed of 200 kilometers per hour.
> 
> Work on the Shenzhen-Jiangmen section proceeds slower than the western section because it involves the huge undertaking of constructing a bridge over the Pearl River.


----------



## Pansori

hkskyline said:


> I'm here for a constructive and meaningful discussion with people who are knowledgeable of at least the basics on this topic - who rides these trains, where the network is going, their impact on the national transport grid, etc. I'm not here to be a pricing search engine. Do it yourself.


Reason I'm asking those questions is because so far you failed to provide a single valid argument or piece of data to support your claims. Therefore 'meaningful discussion' was out of reach.


----------



## hkskyline

Pansori said:


> Reason I'm asking those questions is because so far you failed to provide a single valid argument or piece of data to support your claims. Therefore 'meaningful discussion' was out of reach.


I noted long-distance bus travel is cheaper than rail, which is why the migrant classes prefer so, and the actual usage figures show it. Anyone who knows how to get around in China and have done so would agree. That is a basic fact that you have not grasped. Hope you have read the link I had just posted to understand how these migrants travel.

And feel free to do your research and find data points to prove me wrong. I will be delighted to see what you can find.


----------



## Pansori

hkskyline said:


> I noted long-distance bus travel is cheaper than rail, which is why the migrant classes prefer so, and the actual usage figures show it.


Indeed you made such claim and then failed to prove it. Moreover, just a few posts back the opposite was proven.



> Anyone who knows how to get around in China and have done so would agree. That is a basic fact that you have not grasped. Hope you have read the link I had just posted to understand how these migrants travel.


So far your 'facts' have been along the lines of 'I know' or 'everyone knows'. Yet you failed to provide a single data point to actually demonstrate that. Not only that, you refuse to address questions that clearly demonstrate that you are wrong.


----------



## luhai

Pansori said:


> Indeed you made such claim and then failed to prove it. Moreover, just a few posts back the opposite was proven.
> 
> 
> 
> So far your 'facts' have been along the lines of 'I know' or 'everyone knows'. Yet you failed to provide a single data point to actually demonstrate that. Not only that, you refuse to address questions that clearly demonstrate that you are wrong.




fyi, buses tend to be sleepers and allows for large luggage without checked-in fee. While HSR is quicker, but there restrictions that will make buses for attractive. They also serve routes and make stops where HSR does not. The fact that buses exist and their ridership far exceed rail or air on spring rush speaks to their utility.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Han Ximin said:


> The station was put into use in October 1911, when the Guangzhou-Kowloon Railway was put into operation. Service was suspended in 2006.


Are there plans to reopen any other deserted stations?


----------



## Pansori

luhai said:


> fyi, buses tend to be sleepers and allows for large luggage without checked-in fee. While HSR is quicker, but there restrictions that will make buses for attractive. They also serve routes and make stops where HSR does not. The fact that buses exist and their ridership far exceed rail or air on spring rush speaks to their utility.


That certainly is true (and not only in China). Buses are a different mode of transport and have advantages and disadvantages over trains. For instance buses cannot go on rails while trains cannot go on roads, etc.

We however are trying to address some particular statements made here by hkskyline which he so far failed to back by any kind of data or logic and attempted to use a completely flawed example of pricing of high-speed trains vs buses as a base for his argument.


----------



## hkskyline

Pansori said:


> That certainly is true (and not only in China). Buses are a different mode of transport and have advantages and disadvantages over trains. For instance buses cannot go on rails while trains cannot go on roads, etc.
> 
> We however are trying to address some particular statements made here by hkskyline which he so far failed to back by any kind of data or logic and attempted to use a completely flawed example of pricing of high-speed trains vs buses as a base for his argument.


You need to find data points to prove me wrong. Fact is fact. Logic is logic. Not my problem you can't grasp that.

Migrants prefer buses over high-speed trains because of price. Simple logic. Don't understand why you can't see this obvious reality.

More bed-time reading for your ignorance : http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/epaper/2012-08/29/content_15715655.htm

Your belief that high-speed trains are better priced per km is quite a damning contrast to how migrants decide how they travel, and the statistical distribution of bus travel proves you very, very wrong.


----------



## Pansori

hkskyline said:


> Migrants prefer buses over high-speed trains because of price. Simple logic. Don't understand why you can't see this obvious reality.





> Train tickets for the route cost around 150 yuan ($23.50), that's 100 yuan less than the cost of the bus, but the price differential fails to give the rail companies an advantage, because it's often extremely difficult to buy train tickets during peak travel seasons such as Spring Festival or the summer holiday.


According to the article the key reasons for the popularity of buses are:

a) availability
b) lack of alternatives (like Shanghai-Qingdao route that you mentioned)

Those are fair points as the rail infrastructure in China is still very limited for most part.

No mention of price though. On the contrary, the article actually states that buses are more expensive. If I recall correctly, your argument was that buses are cheaper which is why migrant workers prefer them over hi-speed trains? Have you changed your opinion since that statement or are you once again completely lost in your arguments?

Let's go back to the Guangzhou-Nanning route. So what are migrant workers choosing when they travel from Guangzhou to Nanning? More expensive buses (based on the source that you provided) or cheaper high-speed trains on the same route? I know that may sound like a silly question when the answer is pretty obvious but grasping your logic is indeed complicated based on the contradicting statements and sources that you provide that go against your own claims.


----------



## hkskyline

Pansori said:


> So what are migrant workers choosing when they travel from Guangzhou to Nanning? More expensive buses (based on the source that you provided) or cheaper high-speed trains on the same route?


Did you search the bus fares to understand the price difference?

By the way, have you thought the bulk of the migrants come from poorer *farming* communities and not city-to-city movements? This is exactly luhai's point on sleeper buses getting to where trains can't.


----------



## Pansori

hkskyline said:


> Did you search the bus fares to understand the price difference?


I did indeed. I used the website for bus fares that you provided a few posts back.



> By the way, have you thought the bulk of the migrants come from poorer *farming* communities


Such as Shanghai to Qingdao?


----------



## Jiangwho

My own experience tells that sometimes its much easy to jump on a bus than a train, bus stations are normally located in the center of a city, but train stations especially these newly built CRH stations are far from city center, sure this does not really save time if you compare the speed between a CRH train and a bus, but hey you forget as a migrant I need to bring five sacks of homemade smoked pork/fish, otherwise I will be homesickhno:, you can image that could be a nightmare if I try to board the train with all my sacks, but its not really a problem for the bus. Another important reason is that during CNY, you can hardly buy a train ticket, but you can easily buy a bus ticket, sorry to say this is also my own experience. :lol: it is simply nothing to do with the price, sometimes you just have no options.


----------



## luhai

Jiangwho said:


> My own experience tells that sometimes its much easy to jump on a bus than a train, bus stations are normally located in the center of a city, but train stations especially these newly built CRH stations are far from city center, sure this does not really save time if you compare the speed between a CRH train and a bus, but hey you forget as a migrant I need to bring five sacks of homemade smoked pork/fish, otherwise I will be homesickhno:, you can image that could be a nightmare if I try to board the train with all my sacks, but its not really a problem for the bus. Another important reason is that during CNY, you can hardly buy a train ticket, but you can easily buy a bus ticket, sorry to say this is also my own experience. :lol: it is simply nothing to do with the price, sometimes you just have no options.




indeed, during CNY lots and lots of buses got commandeered for long distance duties. I have seen tour buses with their tour company logos on them at service and long distance transport bus. For HSR trains, you simply can't mobilize like that. (for slow rail mothballed trained got mobilized as L train, but that's a different discussion.

From my personal experience, people normally take the train for long distance (>500 km) to the nearest city with frequent train service (say more than 10 a day). then take bus to cover the last 100 km or so. 

Location of train station is less of a factor, since long distance bus stations also tends in the outskirts of major city, so it will avoid city traffic going in and out of town. Also the migrant tend not to live in the city center as well, as they tend to live in dormitories near their factory or cheap housing outside of the city center.

The only reason i have people who would actually very long distances bus is 1) it a sleeper overnight bus, since overnight sleeper train ticket is hard to get and tend to. e expensive. 2) they need to transport lots of stuff as buses are more generous with what people can bring how much they can bring. (and if you do violate those rules you can easily bribe to the bus driver and it almost impossible to do the same to the train conductor.) on the flip side, long distance buses are perceived as dangerous, ever year there are dozens of high profile bus accidents that kills more than 20 people, while for trains, they tend to be once every decade.


----------



## hkskyline

Pansori said:


> Such as Shanghai to Qingdao?


You are taking that comparison out of context. My reply was to chornedsnorkack for intercity travel. Go back and read the original post on 8/29. The conclusion is trains are not cheap in general and hence migrants don't use them since they are even poorer than those who can afford intercity travel.

High-speed trains are not able to reach the rural farming communities where these migrants come from anyway. They are for the middle class folks and business travelers who need intercity travel. By the way, you do realize there are migrants who move between cities, right? These are the wealthier folks who are more closer to middle class than the farming migrants and hence may consider flying or CRH trains.

But then, you are not able to understand this distinction and the discussion then morphed into a tangent looking at cost per unit of distance, which is completely irrelevant to consumer behaviour. I suggest you re-read how the discussion changed from its beginnings in late August.


----------



## Pansori

hkskyline said:


> You are taking that comparison out of context. My reply was to chornedsnorkack for intercity travel. Go back and read the original post on 8/29. The conclusion is trains are not cheap in general and hence migrants don't use them since they are even poorer than those who can afford intercity travel.
> 
> High-speed trains are not able to reach the rural farming communities where these migrants come from anyway. They are for the middle class folks and business travelers who need intercity travel. By the way, you do realize there are migrants who move between cities, right? These are the wealthier folks who are more closer to middle class than the farming migrants and hence may consider flying or CRH trains.
> 
> But then, you are not able to understand this distinction and the discussion then morphed into a tangent looking at cost per unit of distance, which is completely irrelevant to consumer behaviour. I suggest you re-read how the discussion changed from its beginnings in late August.


I am not referring to your latest shift in arguments but to your original post that you failed to back up and provided a flawed example.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

And I directly inquired about your mention:


hkskyline said:


> the masses travel on K trains or even cheaper highway buses.


I´ve provided an example of K train pricing. I could not provide bus pricing, because these are all Chinese to me. Have you?


----------



## hkskyline

Pansori said:


> I am not referring to your latest shift in arguments but to your original post that you failed to back up and provided a flawed example.


Have you not read the news articles I had posted, or conveniently ignored them since they all prove your line of thought wrong?

There is plenty of literature out there on China's Spring festival rush.

You still haven't provided empirical evidence on why my points are wrong. You should work on that.


----------



## Pansori

hkskyline said:


> Have you not read the news articles I had posted, or conveniently ignored them since they all prove your line of thought wrong?


I actually quoted articles and data sources provided by yourself to prove that your claims were wrong 



> You still haven't provided empirical evidence on why my points are wrong. You should work on that.


I have. You failed to address any of them. Your 'empirical evidence' on the other hand was limited to 'I know', 'everyone knows' or 'how can a foreigner know better than us (who?)' and a flawed example of a 700km journey being compared to a 1300km journey. Such evidence does not stand any criticism and therefore was easily rebuffed.


----------



## hkskyline

Pansori said:


> I actually quoted articles and data sources provided by yourself to prove that your claims were wrong
> 
> I have. You failed to address any of them. Your 'empirical evidence' on the other hand was limited to 'I know', 'everyone knows' or 'how can a foreigner know better than us (who?)' and a flawed example of a 700km journey being compared to a 1300km journey. Such evidence does not stand any criticism and therefore was easily rebuffed.


Your flawed conclusions come from a per km pricing mechanism that consumers don't consider in their transport decisions and utter ignorance that migrants may even consider using airport buses in their journeys.

Here is yet another chart that shows buses are the primary mode of transport for that huge annual migration during the Spring festival :










Same story as before.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> Your flawed conclusions come from a per km pricing mechanism that consumers don't consider in their transport decisions


Indeed they don't. The consumers care about total price.
But the thing was that your chosen comparison was a case where road is direct but rail makes a big detour and also has only G trains, not D nor K trains.
I do not speak for Pansori, but always agreed that G trains are expensive.
What we've been asked is to look at routes which DO have fairly direct D train service. Such as Guangzhou-Nanning.
We have a search result that on this specific route, D train is about as cheap as a bus and also much faster.
Is this typical? And how do migrant workers travel on the routes where this applies?

Also: next Saturday is 1st of October - followed by a whole Golden Week.
Shall there be a large number of L trains to bring migrant workers home for 1st of October? Or only for New Year?


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Indeed they don't. The consumers care about total price.
> But the thing was that your chosen comparison was a case where road is direct but rail makes a big detour and also has only G trains, not D nor K trains.
> I do not speak for Pansori, but always agreed that G trains are expensive.
> What we've been asked is to look at routes which DO have fairly direct D train service. Such as Guangzhou-Nanning.
> We have a search result that on this specific route, D train is about as cheap as a bus and also much faster.
> Is this typical? And how do migrant workers travel on the routes where this applies?
> 
> Also: next Saturday is 1st of October - followed by a whole Golden Week.
> Shall there be a large number of L trains to bring migrant workers home for 1st of October? Or only for New Year?


Good. This is far more insightful. The cheaper trains are definitely on the migrants' radar. However, tickets are hard to come by and capacity cannot easily be ramped up significantly across the network. They try, but it is easier to mobilize buses than trains.

I personally think D trains are still too expensive for migrants going back to the rural areas. The big issue that has arisen is the schedule cuts on the really cheap K -type trains following the opening of many G and D lines.

October Golden Week is not a typical time for migrants to go home. They typically go home only once a year during the Spring festival due to cultural reasons. 

As for Guangzhou - Nanning, G and D trains are priced at about CNY 170. K sleeper trains cost significantly less if seat-only. I can find bus tickets going for CNY 140 on CTrip. However, migrants often bring a lot of cargo with them for the trip home, and trains (especially CRH) enforce bag limits, but they more likely can pass by taking a bus. The 30 yuan disparity would be several meals worth, so even though we may consider it immaterial from a Western yardstick, that small amount goes a long way in a migrant's life. Then you need to also consider the trip does not end in another city, but in some rural area further out from Nanning.


----------



## Pansori

hkskyline said:


> Your flawed conclusions come from a per km pricing mechanism that consumers don't consider in their transport decisions and utter ignorance that migrants may even consider using airport buses in their journeys.
> 
> Here is yet another chart that shows buses are the primary mode of transport for that huge annual migration during the Spring festival :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same story as before.


You are once again confusing capacity and availability vs pricing which was your initial claim that you so far failed to address.

Edit: I see you finally addressed the Guangzhou-Nanning route. Wasn't that difficult, was it?


----------



## hkskyline

Pansori said:


> You are once again confusing capacity and availability vs pricing which was your initial claim that you so far failed to address.
> 
> Edit: I see you finally addressed the Guangzhou-Nanning route. Wasn't that difficult, was it?


You need to do your research if you are trying to prove me wrong.

I hope you realize pricing is correlated with supply and demand _even_ if prices seem to be "fixed".


----------



## Pansori

hkskyline said:


> I hope you realize pricing is correlated with supply and demand _even_ if prices seem to be "fixed".


Surely so. Yet you provided a completely flawed example of that and then kept getting rebuffed when attempted to recover by shifting the discussion. Which suggests that your claims of knowledge and 'research' that you claim to have done are not valid.

Trying to jump to another (even if related) subject won't save that. Admit it already, your knowledge of the topic is patchy and insufficient and most certainly not competent to make claims that you do.


----------



## hkskyline

Pansori said:


> Surely so. Yet you provided a completely flawed example of that and then kept getting rebuffed when attempted to recover by shifting the discussion. Which suggests that your claims of knowledge and 'research' that you claim to have done are not valid.
> 
> Trying to jump to another (even if related) subject won't save that. Admit it already, your knowledge of the topic is patchy and insufficient and most certainly not competent to make claims that you do.


What flawed example? List it.


----------



## Pansori

hkskyline said:


> What flawed example? List it.


This has already been mentioned numerous times by more than one person taking part in the discussion.


----------



## hkskyline

Pansori said:


> This has already been mentioned numerous times by more than one person taking part in the discussion.


The example where you employed the wrong logic of a per distance unit price having any impact on consumer behaviour. Migrants need to save money. They are willing to take a longer trip, regardless of direct or not, if they can make significant savings. That's the reality you cannot grasp, yet you still dwell on the per unit distance number as if that means anything to the consumer.

Yes. That is your flawed example.


----------



## Pansori

hkskyline said:


> The example where you employed the wrong logic of a per distance unit price having any impact on consumer behaviour. Migrants need to save money. They are willing to take a longer trip, regardless of direct or not, if they can make significant savings. That's the reality you cannot grasp, yet you still dwell on the per unit distance number as if that means anything to the consumer.
> 
> Yes. That is your flawed example.


The absurdity of that example was not to do with total price but with the route specifics and your choice to use it to make a point (why not Guangzhou-Nanning?). It's like saying that people don't take trains from Shanghai to Ningbo via Changsha because it would cost them 1500 Yuan as opposed to 100 Yuan on the bus. And you would be right. But if you can't pick up what's wrong with such an example _other than_ total price, then it makes it very difficult to explain the rest. You need to understand the context, the extensiveness of the infrastructure and pricing per distance unit and put it all in a common picture. For some reason I see that I made you very upset by pointing out the gaps in your understanding of how transport works. I apologize for that and hope we can finish it here.


----------



## hkskyline

Pansori said:


> The absurdity of that example was not to do with total price but with the route specifics and your choice to use it to make a point (why not Guangzhou-Nanning?). It's like saying that people don't take trains from Shanghai to Ningbo via Changsha because it would cost them 1500 Yuan as opposed to 100 Yuan on the bus. And you would be right. But if you can't pick up what's wrong with such an example _other than_ total price, then it makes it very difficult to explain the rest. You need to understand the context, the extensiveness of the infrastructure and pricing per distance unit and put it all in a common picture. For some reason I see that I made you very upset by pointing out the gaps in your understanding of how transport works. I apologize for that and hope we can finish it here.


You can never make direct comparisons on distances between trains and buses because they run on different alignments. Customers don't care about that difference. They care about price and how long it is going to take. So I don't see what relevance is that train line through Jinan vs. the highway along the coast. People see the price and pay for it.

By the way, if you are trying to prove a longer journey means a higher price so my argument doesn't make sense, then you better learn more about how CRH is priced. You may not realize that CRH prices are not truly correlated to distance. Shanghai to Qingdao (CNY 518) is a longer journey than Wuhan to Shenzhen (CNY 538) by over 10%, yet the former actually costs less!

This disparity magnifies for some intercity pairs (Beijing-Tianjin and Guangzhou-Shenzhen). That's why I've said all along be very careful using a per distance measure on any pricing.

Who is absurd now?


----------



## Wisarut

Woonsocket54 said:


> A 10-hour journey from Shanghai to Kunming will not be competitive with commercial air travel. By the time you make it out to Hongqiao, you may as well fly the rest of the way.


The increasingly restriction of aviation services that upset the passengers have compelled many passengers to look for High speed train as the alternative while some prefer compromises - slightly slower but getting scenic along the routes.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> *New high-speed railway to connect East and West China*
> Oct. 17, 2016
> China Daily _Excerpt_
> 
> The Hukun (Shanghai-Kunming) High-Speed Railway (HSR), completed this June, will open to traffic on Nov 30, shortening the distance between Shanghai and Kunming from more than 40 hours to around 10.


Cannot find such trains. The slowest of the 3 trains Shanghai-Kunming is T381, and it takes 39 hours 51 minutes to cover 2899 km Shanghai South-Kunming.
39:51 is not more than 40 hours. It is less than 40 hours.
K79 covers the distance, of 2660 km, in 35:34.


----------



## Short

Woonsocket54 said:


> A 10-hour journey from Shanghai to Kunming will not be competitive with commercial air travel. By the time you make it out to Hongqiao, you may as well fly the rest of the way.


The main market would be for points in between Shanghai and Kunming. However for end to end users, the attraction is not for overall travel time but that it runs to a dependable timetable. Chinese airlines are notoriously running late due to the rigid military control of the airspace and not being able to fly around bad weather or other issues. Once the delays start in the morning, the snowball across the country, meaning that evening flights can be delayed for hours or cancelled outright.

So pending on the need and certainty of being in the right place at the right time, rail is the winner for many Chinese business people and families.


----------



## Randyat

Impressive.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> *New high-speed railway to connect East and West China*
> Oct. 17, 2016
> China Daily _Excerpt_
> 
> The Hukun (Shanghai-Kunming) High-Speed Railway (HSR), completed this June, will open to traffic on Nov 30, shortening the distance between Shanghai and Kunming from more than 40 hours to around 10.


What shall be the travel time Guiyang-Kunming?


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> What shall be the travel time Guiyang-Kunming?


I can't find the schedules on CTrip. 昆明南 (Kunmingnan) station isn't even loaded in there.

From this source : http://www.huoche.net/gaotie_10353/

贵阳到昆明有465公里，按照350公里的时速，至少要70分钟左右

The travel time between Guiyang and Kunming will be about 70 minutes at speeds of 350 km/h.


----------



## Sunfuns

Isn't that railway already 80% operational with only Guyiang-Kunming section still missing?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Sunfuns said:


> Isn't that railway already 80% operational with only Guyiang-Kunming section still missing?


Hongqiao-Guiyang is 1789 km. How long shall Guiyang-Kunming high speed railway be?


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Hongqiao-Guiyang is 1789 km. How long shall Guiyang-Kunming high speed railway be?


From the same source : http://www.huoche.net/gaotie_10353/

贵阳到昆明有465公里，按照350公里的时速，至少要70分钟左右。

Guiyang is 465km from Kunming.


----------



## ashish9612

Always a step ahead


----------



## chornedsnorkack

For comparison:
Guiyang-Xupu 435 km
Guiyang-Xinhua 492 km

Fastest travel time Guiyang North-Xupu South is 2:09. Fastest time Guiyang North-Xinhua South is 2:19.


----------



## Woonsocket54

Tracking China
http://en.trackingchina.com/2016/10/18/20161018-1125/



> *Track Laying Begins on Sichuan Part of Xi’an-Chengdu High Speed Railway*
> BY DAVID FENG · 18 OCTOBER 2016
> 
> The Sichuan part of the Xi’an-Chengdu HSR is now well on its way to being reality, with track-laying begun on this stretch. With works beginning in March 2013 and scheduled to last for 4 years and 9 months, the new line, 509.4 km (318⅓ mi) in length, should be ready and open to the public in late 2017. Part of the new route is the Mianyang-Chengdu-Leshan HSR, which has already opened to public rail traffic.
> 
> This means that, along with the Shaanxi part beginning track-laying as early as September 2016, this line should be opened to the public in the not too distant future. The route goes through the greater Qinling Mountain Range, thus it travels through relatively mountainous terrain. Maximum speeds were originally planned at 350 km/h (217 mph), but have since been downgraded, unfortunately, to 250 km/h (157 mph).
> 
> However, the new line will still be a major “speedbump” for rail traffic between Chengdu, southwestern central China, and the capital, Beijing. Right now, the fastest regular rail train service, Train Z50, takes 22 hours and 19 minutes; when overnight sleeper HSR services were briefly available around 2011, travel times were 16 hours or so. Currently, the fastest HSR services take 14 hours and 23 minutes to go between the two cities. With the new HSR line in operation, trains will travel from Chengdu via Xi’an, using only approximately 8 hours — almost twice as fast as today’s fastest trains. Regional traffic will also see a boost: HSR will mean that travel between Chengdu and Xi’an will only take 3 hours.


----------



## FM 2258

hkskyline said:


> *New high-speed railway to connect East and West China*
> Oct. 17, 2016
> China Daily _Excerpt_
> * <snip>*
> 
> 
> 
> The new trains will be different from the current HSR trains which are usually white. The new HSR trains will be grey and bullet-shaped, hence the nickname "bullet trains".
> 
> A variety of conveniences for passengers will also be available on the new trains, including microwave ovens and refrigerators to allow passengers more ways to store and heat their own food, as at present they can only use the boiling water to cook instant noodles.


Curious, any idea what train models these would be? The only grey and "bullet" shape train I can think of is the CRH380A. Even the brand new CRH-0207 and CRH-0503?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Are two prototypes (the Golden Phoenix and the Blue Dolphin).

Which it is on the right circulates in commercial service since August 15, 2016. 
I call it CRH350A because it is initially manufactured by Qingdao Sifang (CSR), so it is on the left, manufactured by China North Rolling Stock (CNR), will be the CRH500B.

All CRH train series and more.


----------



## doc7austin

Hefei-Fuzhou High Speed Railway between Shangrao and Nanping North:












A CRH380A train at Wuyishan East Railway Station, Fujian Province on the Hefei-Fuzhou High Speed Railway:


----------



## doc7austin

Departure From: Shanghai Hongqiao Railway Station
Arrival To: Xiamen North, Fujian Province
Train No: G1653
Travel Class: First Class
Distance: 1,085 km
Duration: 6 hours 25 minutes
Top speed: 312 km/h
Route: Hangzhou East, Jinhua, Shangrao, Nanping North, Fuzhou, Putian, Quanzhou
Operator: China Railway High-Speed, Shanghai Railway Bureau
Trainset: CRH380B-3645 (8-car set)
Family: Siemens Velaro
Manufacturer: CNR Tangshan Railway Vehicle Co. Ltd.



Schematic map of the journey (blue-line):












Shanghai Hongqiao Railway Station:












Departure board, with the train G1653 to Xiamen listed:













Our CRH380B high speed train:












Business Class:












First Class section in Car no. 1 (booked by me):





















Our max speed on the Shanghai-Kunming High-Speed Railway is 312 km/h:












Approaching Hangzhou, Zhejiang Province:












Nanjing–Hangzhou Passenger Railway in the background:












Another two coupled CRH380B trainsets:





















A CRH380A trainset at Hangzhou East Railway Station:












Crossing the Qiantang River:





















Hangzhou–Ningbo High-Speed Railway is forking off to the east:












Between Hangzhou and Jinhua on the Shanghai-Kunming High-Speed Railway:































Between Jinhua and Shangrao on the Shanghai-Kunming High-Speed Railway:






























Yushan South Railway Station, Jiangxi Province:












Shangrao Junction in Jiangxi Province:
Turning from the Shanghai–Kunming to the Hefei–Fuzhou High-Speed Railway:






























Shangrao Railway Station (upper part):












Driving south towards the coast on the Hefei–Fuzhou High-Speed Railway:












The train is pretty empty, at least in First Class:












Minjiang River near Nanping:












Nanping North Railway Station on the Hefei–Fuzhou High-Speed Railway:












Fuzhou Railway Station:












Putian Railway Station on the Fuzhou–Xiamen Railway, Fujian Province:












Quanzhou Railway Station on the Fuzhou–Xiamen Railway, Fujian Province:












Xiamen North Railway Station in Southern Fujian Province:





















Departure area of Xiamen North:












Here again is the video trip report:






Here is the direct link to Youtube.



Enjoy!


----------



## AlexAvdeed

Chinese are very enthusiastic about building railways worldwide, they are also engaged in Moscow - Kazan high speed rail line construction. Veeery expensive project.:cheers:


----------



## Woonsocket54

"*New high-speed railway in N. China begins construction*"

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1013052.shtml



> Construction has begun on a new high-speed railway linking the northern coal-rich Shanxi province to the central province of Henan.
> 
> The 358-km-long railway starts in Taiyuan, capital of Shanxi, and ends in Henan's Jiaozuo City. Construction began on a 33-km stretch in Henan on Friday.
> . . .


----------



## Norge78

Any news about the *Baoji-Lanzhou HSR*? It should be *350 km/h* and not 250 km/h...


Any plans about a *350 km/h Shanghai- Wuhan - Chongqing HSR* line?



Thanks


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Woonsocket54 said:


> "*New high-speed railway in N. China begins construction*"
> 
> http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1013052.shtml


Jiaozuo-Zhengzhou high speed railway is now served by C trains, that now take 34 minutes to cover 78 km nonstop.


----------



## hkskyline

FM 2258 said:


> How are Chinese airlines coping with all this HSR expansion?


http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2016-07/13/content_26069048.htm


----------



## Anchan

A new rail route from Kashghar China to Gwader pakistan coming soon The highest train route would be


----------



## foxmulder

hkskyline said:


> http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2016-07/13/content_26069048.htm


It could have been much larger, though... :cheers:


----------



## foxmulder

Anchan said:


> A new rail route from Kashghar China to Gwader pakistan coming soon The highest train route would be


That will be something, isn't it? Passing through that geography by a train.


----------



## hkskyline

Shenzhen, Oct-2016 by Mitch Altman, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

*Qingdao-Rongcheng high-speed rail gets rolling*
18 November 2016
China Daily _Excerpt_

A high-speed railway connecting the three major cities of Qingdao, Yantai, and Weihai, across the Shandong Peninsula opened on Nov 16, forming a one-hour city-to-city loop.

With construction starting in 2011, and costing 37 billion yuan ($5.5 billion), the railway runs for 300 kilometers, traversed by trains at an average speed of 250 kilometers per hour, peaking out at 300 kph.

Starting at Qingdao North Railway Station, the line goes northeast through Jiaodong Peninsula and ends at Rongcheng Railway Station in Weihai, stopping at 14 stations.

Journey times between Qingdao and Yantai will be reduced from four and a half hours to just one, according to an official from Yantai railway bureau.

Travel times between Qingdao and Weihai will also be cut to less than two hours.

Nearly 20 million people will benefit from the new service, which covers an area of 30,000 square kilometers.

The railway will help to eliminate the transport bottlenecks in the northeastern area of Shandong Peninsula, improving regional cooperation and boosting economic development.

"The speed of transport is key to allowing labor markets to function effectively in ever-expanding cities," said one expert on urban studies.


----------



## ccdk

High Speed Trains used to deliver Singles' Day parcels (pictures from different sources)
这很中国：高铁送快递助力双十一(双语)
http://edu.sina.com.cn/en/2016-11-14/doc-ifxxsmif2963853.shtml

高铁将加入今年双十一货运大战，大大减少送货时间。在中国真正神奇的不是电子商务，而是中国迅猛发展的物流。

　　High Speed Railway (HSR) trains are joining the battle to deliver goods for the Singles' Day (Nov. 11) shopping spree, in Beijing from Friday.

　　从上周五开始，北京高铁已经加入了双十一购物节之后的送货大战中。

　　According to Beijing Railway Bureau (BRB), four daily trains will be running at 160 km per hour to carry goods from Beijing to Shanghai and Guangdong in the next 10 days, shortening each trip to 15 hours, including loading and unloading time.

　　据北京铁路局表示，未来10天将每天派出4列车，以每小时160公里的速度将货物从北京运到上海和广东，将每趟列车包括上下货的时间缩短到15个小时。

　　"Each train has 15 compartments, and can carry 340 tonnes of goods," said Zhang Jinchao, deputy director at the BRB logistics center. "A total of 1,837 tonnes of goods have been transported today, with one of the trains carrying goods sold on JD.com and delivered by SF express," Zhang said Friday.

　　北京铁路局物流中心副主任张金超（音）表示说：“每列车有15个车厢，可以运送340吨货物。”张金超在上周五时透露说：“今天已经一共运输了1837吨货，其中有一列车装的是京东出售、顺丰承运的快递包裹。”

　　According to BRB, the center expects to send around 13,500 tonnes of goods and receive 14,000 tonnes during the Nov. 11-20 period, both 80 percent increases compared with a year earlier.

　　据北京铁路局表示，从11月11日到20日期间，物流中心预计将发出13500吨货物，接收货物达到14000吨，都同比去年增长80%。

　　According to China Express Association, over one billion packages are estimated to be transported for the Singles' Day shopping spree, double last year's figure.

　　据中国快递协会表示，今年双十一购物节期间需要运送的包裹估计将会超过10亿件，是去年两倍。

　　Nearly 14 billion packages were delivered in China in 2014, exceeding the United States for the first time.

　　2014年中国运送的包裹数量达到了近140亿件，第一次超过美国。

　　"People say that e-commerce in China is a miracle, but in my opinion, the fast development of express services in China is the real miracle," said Jack Ma, president of the nation's e-commerce giant Alibaba.

　　电商巨头阿里巴巴总裁马云说道：“人们都说电子商务在中国是一个奇迹，但是在我看来，中国快递服务的高速发展才是真正的奇迹。”

　　Online shoppers in China reached 447 million by June this year, according to a China Internet Network Information Center report.

　　据中国互联网络信息中心的报告，今年6月中国网购人数达到了4.47亿人。

　　"We are selling more goods and delivering them faster. Delivering goods was a headache during Singles' Day five years ago, but now shoppers can receive what they bought in two or three days," said Zhang Yong, Alibaba's CEO.

　　阿里巴巴CEO张勇表示说：“我们卖出去的商品越来越多，送快递的速度也越来越快。五年前在双十一期间送快递是一件令人头疼的事情，但是现在买家们可以在2、3天内就收到他们买的东西。”


----------



## SSMEX

ccdk said:


> High Speed Trains used to deliver Singles' Day parcels (pictures from different sources)
> 这很中国：高铁送快递助力双十一(双语)


Honestly this seems incredibly stupid. The use of passenger trains to transport parcels means (A) an incredibly inefficient use of volume, (B) slow load/unload times because unlike passengers, packages can't walk themselves on/off and the lack of pallets means each bag has to be grabbed by hand and walked off, (C) the lack of cargo handling infrastructure in the stations means they literally grab a bag and put it on the platform, and they have to be carted off to a truck manually, (D) loading and unloading takes up precious platform time.

Furthermore, the math seems really off. The longest trains in the system are 16 carriage consists, which is about 1200 seats total. If each train can carry 340 tons, that's 261 kilograms per seat, which seems outrageously high given what we see in the images (are seats even rated to carry that much mass?). Finally, these trains are only going at 160km, which is not even that much faster than conventional freight trains that don't have any of the costs and logistics inefficiencies associated with transporting parcels on high speed passenger trainsets.


----------



## luhai

SSMEX said:


> Honestly this seems incredibly stupid. The use of passenger trains to transport parcels means (A) an incredibly inefficient use of volume, (B) slow load/unload times because unlike passengers, packages can't walk themselves on/off and the lack of pallets means each bag has to be grabbed by hand and walked off, (C) the lack of cargo handling infrastructure in the stations means they literally grab a bag and put it on the platform, and they have to be carted off to a truck manually, (D) loading and unloading takes up precious platform time.
> 
> 
> 
> Furthermore, the math seems really off. The longest trains in the system are 16 carriage consists, which is about 1200 seats total. If each train can carry 340 tons, that's 261 kilograms per seat, which seems outrageously high given what we see in the images (are seats even rated to carry that much mass?). Finally, these trains are only going at 160km, which is not even that much faster than conventional freight trains that don't have any of the costs and logistics inefficiencies associated with transporting parcels on high speed passenger trainsets.




Dude, chill.It's only a few days during a time when parcel capacity in the country is incredibly strained and those are night off hour trains that don't carry passengers anyway. (inspect track condition, transport rail staff, position trains into their starting schedule location etc)

As for weight, if you look at the pictures, most of the parcels are on the floor, in the isles very few of them are actually on seat. I suspect this request came rather late so it was not plan very well. Or else they would have just taken the seats off and stack them on top of the parcels.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> *Qingdao-Rongcheng high-speed rail gets rolling*
> 18 November 2016
> China Daily _Excerpt_
> 
> A high-speed railway connecting the three major cities of Qingdao, Yantai, and Weihai, across the Shandong Peninsula opened on Nov 16, forming a one-hour city-to-city loop.
> 
> With construction starting in 2011, and costing 37 billion yuan ($5.5 billion), the railway runs for 300 kilometers, traversed by trains at an average speed of 250 kilometers per hour, peaking out at 300 kph.
> 
> Starting at Qingdao North Railway Station, the line goes northeast through Jiaodong Peninsula and ends at Rongcheng Railway Station in Weihai, stopping at 14 stations.
> 
> Journey times between Qingdao and Yantai will be reduced from four and a half hours to just one, according to an official from Yantai railway bureau.
> 
> Travel times between Qingdao and Weihai will also be cut to less than two hours.


The railway is running, but no service to Qingdao or even Qingdao North. Just Jinan and beyond.


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> The railway is running, but no service to Qingdao or even Qingdao North. Just Jinan and beyond.


? 

Jinan is in the opposite direction from Yantai.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ I believe that what has been inaugurated is the Qingdao-Jimo 33 km section (250 km/h) and that the rest: Jimo-Haiyang-Rongcheng 299 km was inaugurated at 250 km/h on 12/29/2014 and cost 16.44 M € x km.

On 12/29/2014 the Jinan to Rongcheng service it took 4 hours 21 minutes and now take 4 h 10 m. http://www.chinatrainguide.com/ http://www.chinahighlights.com/china-trains/search-result.asp
Qingdao to Haiyang 1 h 1 m 144 km
Qingdao to Yantai 1 h 14 m 201 km
Qingdao to Rongcheng 2 h 13 m 316 km


----------



## SSMEX

luhai said:


> Dude, chill.It's only a few days during a time when parcel capacity in the country is incredibly strained and those are night off hour trains that don't carry passengers anyway. (inspect track condition, transport rail staff, position trains into their starting schedule location etc)
> 
> As for weight, if you look at the pictures, most of the parcels are on the floor, in the isles very few of them are actually on seat. I suspect this request came rather late so it was not plan very well. Or else they would have just taken the seats off and stack them on top of the parcels.


The whole process is just inefficient. 14,000 tons total is like one freight train, maybe two. I get that there's a surge but surely the way to address it isn't to send a bunch of people to a passenger station to cart them off trucks, onto the platform, onto the train, off the train, back onto carts, back on trucks, all to save a few hours?

The aisle argument is something I thought about, but the math still doesn't pencil out. Assuming 1200 seats total, that's no more than 240 rows total, which translates to 1,400kg per row, including the aisle. There's no way the few bags that fit in each row weigh as much as a medium-sized family car.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ I believe that what has been inaugurated is the Qingdao-Jimo 33 km section (250 km/h) and that the rest: Jimo-Haiyang-Rongcheng 299 km was inaugurated at 250 km/h on 12/29/2014 and cost 16.44 M € x km.
> 
> On 12/29/2014 the Jinan to Rongcheng service it took 4 hours 21 minutes and now take 4 h 10 m. http://www.chinatrainguide.com/ http://www.chinahighlights.com/china-trains/search-result.asp


Thanks! Looks like the problem was with a schedule site: https://www.travelchinaguide.com does not see any Qingdao-Yantai links, while 
http://www.chinatrainguide.com/ does.


----------



## saiho

SSMEX said:


> The whole process is just inefficient. 14,000 tons total is like one freight train, maybe two. I get that there's a surge but surely the way to address it isn't to send a bunch of people to a passenger station to cart them off trucks, onto the platform, onto the train, off the train, back onto carts, back on trucks, all to save a few hours?


I mean if it relieves demand it is efficient. What is better: 
A) having a backlog of parcels sitting in a warehouse and a bunch of empty high speed trains sitting in a yard while railways have open slots with no trains running on them producing no revenue.
B) using all these idle resources you already paid for albeit not as effectively compared to a purpose built system which may or may not exist or is tied up at the moment.

I don't know what you define as efficient but B looks really efficient to me. Anyways China Railways has experimented shipping some parcels via high speed rail for quite some time now. It would be nice for them to use the idle high speed rail capacity in the off peak to run a service similar to TGV's La Post. Based on what I have seen in China the conventional lines are very congested. Anything you can move to the PDLs without degrading service is better.


----------



## Sergey Olenin

Does anybody know if there are any concrete standarts for high-speed rolling stock in China (like TSI in directive 96/48/EC in Europe or Technical regulatory standarts for Shinkansen in Japan)? As my understanding is, there are Gb and TB standarts, but I could find only standarts (wheels, passenger doors, brakes and etc.) for the maximum speed 200 km/h...


----------



## SSMEX

saiho said:


> I mean if it relieves demand it is efficient. What is better:
> A) having a backlog of parcels sitting in a warehouse and a bunch of empty high speed trains sitting in a yard while railways have open slots with no trains running on them producing no revenue.
> B) using all these idle resources you already paid for albeit not as effectively compared to a purpose built system which may or may not exist or is tied up at the moment.
> 
> I don't know what you define as efficient but B looks really efficient to me. Anyways China Railways has experimented shipping some parcels via high speed rail for quite some time now. It would be nice for them to use the idle high speed rail capacity in the off peak to run a service similar to TGV's La Post. Based on what I have seen in China the conventional lines are very congested. Anything you can move to the PDLs without degrading service is better.


The correct way to deal with a surge, especially one that is known well in advance, is to rearrange the maintenance and tracks schedule such that a maximum number of freight trains can run during the surge period. The incorrect way of dealing with a surge is to deploy dozens of people across three cities in the middle of the night to manually shuffle a few parcels between seats, the platform, and the truck.

Each of those bags can't be more than 25kg and there can't be more than 11 per row (two per seat, one in the aisle). That's only 66 tons of freight per train, which is literally two tractor trailers. Are you telling me that it's more efficient to deploy dozens of people all night in three cities to load/unload trains instead of sending eight trucks a night, point to point? Trucks are still needed to move the parcels between the distribution center and the train station, and vice versa. Just think about moving those parcels from the platform to the mezzanine level using the passenger elevators. How long will that take?

Using PDLs to move freight is something worth looking into, but you can't half a** it like this. You either go all in by building freight trainsets, a la the TGV La Poste, or you don't do it at all.


----------



## saiho

SSMEX said:


> The correct way to deal with a surge, especially one that is known well in advance, is to rearrange the maintenance and tracks schedule such that a maximum number of freight trains can run during the surge period. The incorrect way of dealing with a surge is to deploy dozens of people across three cities in the middle of the night to manually shuffle a few parcels between seats, the platform, and the truck.


That is assuming you have the rolling stock available to run the freight train. Also I doubt it was known well in advance. Everyone knows singles day is China's black Friday but no one knows how quickly product sales on e-commerce will increase. Package delivery volume this year doubled over last year. 



SSMEX said:


> Each of those bags can't be more than 25kg and there can't be more than 11 per row (two per seat, one in the aisle). That's only 66 tons of freight per train, which is literally two tractor trailers. Are you telling me that it's more efficient to deploy dozens of people all night in three cities to load/unload trains instead of sending eight trucks a night, point to point? Trucks are still needed to move the parcels between the distribution center and the train station, and vice versa. Just think about moving those parcels from the platform to the mezzanine level using the passenger elevators. How long will that take?


Using HSR is faster than trucks even if the trucks use a point to point model. Beijing to Guangzhou (assumed) the truck would still arrive 7 hours later (takes 22 hours) keeping in mind the train has already stopped and unloaded in Shanghai and I did not include breaks for the truck drivers and loading and unloading time. So in reality the disparity is even larger. You would have to employ dozens of people to drive the trucks (at least 2 per truck) and pay highway tolls all the way. Not to mention you would get stuck in China's traffic if you arrive at the destination city during day time. 



SSMEX said:


> Using PDLs to move freight is something worth looking into, but you can't half a** it like this. You either go all in by building freight trainsets, a la the TGV La Poste, or you don't do it at all.


No you don't, you could, like what CRH just did and spend 0 dollars in sunk costs using the infrastructure and rolling stock you have now. You could even call this R&D and they are testing the concept of using HSR as freight. I really don't see why you are making such a fuss over this minor temporary program.


----------



## flankerjun

short message：200→
250KM/H 300→
350KM/H 2017 Junuary


----------



## hkskyline

Guangzhou South Railway Station by Qicong Lin, on Flickr


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...view/hainan-gets-first-crh1a-a-trainsets.html
> 
> *Hainan gets first CRH1A-A trainsets*
> 24 Nov 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CHINA: The first CRH1A-A high speed trains supplied by Bombardier Sifang (Qingdao) Transportation Ltd entered service with China Railway Corp on November 18, operating from the city of Sanya on Hainan Island.
> 
> Designated Zefiro 250NG by the manufacturer, the 250 km/h eight-car trainsets were ordered in 2012 as part of a variation order on an earlier contract. This saw the number of 380 km/h Zefiro 380 (CRH380D) vehicles ordered by the former Ministry of Railways reduced in favour of more 250 km/h trains
> 
> ...


----------



## flankerjun

dimlys1994 said:


> From Railway Gazette:


Hainan ring line will be the first line to recover the speed 250Km/h in 2017 January,other lines will recover in 2017 April


----------



## Gusiluz

> Qingdao-Rongcheng high-speed rail gets rolling
> 18 November 2016
> China Daily Excerpt
> 
> A high-speed railway connecting the three major cities of Qingdao, Yantai, and Weihai, across the Shandong Peninsula opened on Nov 16, forming a one-hour city-to-city loop.
> 
> With construction starting in 2011, and costing 37 billion yuan ($5.5 billion), the railway runs for 300 kilometers, traversed by trains at an average speed of 250 kilometers per hour, peaking out at 300 kph.
> 
> Starting at Qingdao North Railway Station, the line goes northeast through Jiaodong Peninsula and ends at Rongcheng Railway Station in Weihai, stopping at 14 stations.
> 
> Journey times between Qingdao and Yantai will be reduced from four and a half hours to just one, according to an official from Yantai railway bureau.
> 
> Travel times between Qingdao and Weihai will also be cut to less than two hours.





Gusiluz said:


> ^^ I believe that what has been inaugurated is the Qingdao-Jimo 33 km section (250 km/h) and that the rest: Jimo-Haiyang-Rongcheng 299 km was inaugurated at 250 km/h on 12/29/2014 and cost 16.44 M € x km.
> 
> On 12/29/2014 the Jinan to Rongcheng service it took 4 hours 21 minutes and now take 4 h 10 m. http://www.chinatrainguide.com/ http://www.chinahighlights.com/china-trains/search-result.asp
> Qingdao to Haiyang 1 h 1 m 144 km
> Qingdao to Yantai 1 h 14 m 201 km
> Qingdao to Rongcheng 2 h 13 m 316 km


The final 32 km section of the Qingdao – Rongcheng Intercity Railway opened on November 16.


> The Passenger-Dedicated Line starts from the Qingdao Bei station in the north of the city and runs to Yantai, Weihai and Rongcheng.
> 
> Construction of the line on the Shandong peninsula was approved in 2008 and began in 2011. The initial Rongcheng – Jimo Bei section opened for regional services on December 28 2014. The 37bn yuan project included the construction of a 299 km route suitable for 250 km/h operation, plus 36 km of connecting lines and 14 stations.
> 
> There are 18 trains each way per day, taking around 150 min.


As I was convinced that they were 33 km 
I´m sorry  

On the other hand, thanks *flankerjun *for the news of the increase of speeds.
Is there a calendar by lines? As it seems that they will do the same as when they were lowered: each line on a date.
Thank you!


----------



## voyager221

*CRH-0305 manufactured by CRRC Tangshan arrived at National Railway Track Test Centre in Beijing*

By 1435mm的距离


----------



## voyager221

*CRH-0305 and CRH-0507 both at National Railway Track Test Centre in Beijing*

By 魔光老徐


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Great pictures. What is the difference between the CRH-0305 and CRH-0507? Are these official names for these trains or just a working "name/number?" Are they going away from the CRH-1/2/3/5/6/380A/380B/380C/380D naming conventions? 

I love seeing these new entries, the trains are beautiful yet I feel like I know very little about them.


----------



## flankerjun

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Great pictures. What is the difference between the CRH-0305 and CRH-0507? Are these official names for these trains or just a working "name/number?" Are they going away from the CRH-1/2/3/5/6/380A/380B/380C/380D naming conventions?
> 
> I love seeing these new entries, the trains are beautiful yet I feel like I know very little about them.


CRH-0305 and CRH-0507 are two trains that made by different manufacture,CNR Tangshan and CNR Changchun,the train is designed by CNR Changchun,like the difference between ICE3 and CRH3C.they are not official names but name for prototype trains,mainly used for test or technology experiment.for example CRH0201 0202 0203 are comprehensive inspection trains,or CIT trains,CRH0204 is CIT500,CRH0205 is a 250km/h test train,CRH0206 is a CRH380A with Permanent magnet motor.
I have some details about this train,and I will reply in this thread later


----------



## Woonsocket54

"*Chongqing-Wanzhou Railway Opens; Train Services Begin*"

http://en.trackingchina.com/2016/11/28/20161128-1214/


----------



## voyager221

*Shanghai-Kunming HSR Kunming section test run onboard CRH380AJ*






ps. CTCS3 (equivalent to ETCS2) DMI planning area reads from left to right unlike ETCS2 from bottom to top, and it's really a shame the train simulation CRH380A/AJ addons don't have this feature


----------



## hkskyline

*High-speed trains delayed by rail malfunctions*
29 November 2016
China Daily 

Railway service of the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway was restored at noon today after it was forced to a standstill this morning due to an explosion in Jinan, capital city of Shandong province, according to the official micro-blog of Jinan Railway Bureau.

A plant which is said to produce methanol materials exploded at 9:30 am this morning at Huaiyin District of Jinan, local media reported.

Fire caused by the explosion at the plant was put out one hour after the explosion took place and there are no known casualties as of noon, Jinan Times reported.

The explosion caused circuit breakdown which caused trains running on the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway to go out of service, according to Jinan Railway Bureau. The railway is about 100 meters away from the plant.


----------



## voyager221

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Great pictures. What is the difference between the CRH-0305 and CRH-0507? Are these official names for these trains or just a working "name/number?" Are they going away from the CRH-1/2/3/5/6/380A/380B/380C/380D naming conventions?
> 
> I love seeing these new entries, the trains are beautiful yet I feel like I know very little about them.


They've been nicknamed as the Blue Dolphin and the Golden Phoenix by the media.

As I understand, CRRC enlisted european and australian industrial design studios helping design the exterior and interior of both the prototypes. They certainly have done a good job.


----------



## flankerjun




----------



## tjrgx

*First High-speed train runs through China's Three Gorges region*


----------



## voyager221

Chengdong-Wanzhou CRH inauguration, regional food been brought onboard to add bit more flavour

By 黄尚斐_牛黄制造


----------



## kunming tiger

when is the Guiyang - Kunming HSR scheduled to open?


----------



## hkskyline

*Part of Guangzhou-Kunming High-speed Railway to open*
Dec. 2, 2016
Shenzhen Daily _Excerpt_

A SECTION of the Guangzhou-Kunming High-speed Railway will be opened Dec. 26, and when the whole rail line is completed, the trip from Shenzhen to Kunming, Yunnan Province, by high-speed train will be shortened from 29 hours to about 10 hours, the Shenzhen Evening News reported Thursday.

The soon-to-open section between Kunming and Nanning covers 710 kilometers, with 434 kilometers passing through Yunnan Province. The railway is designed for travel at a speed of 250 kilometers per hour. Construction of the rail line started in December 2009.

The other section of the Guangzhou-Kunming High-speed Railway — from Nanning in Guangxi to Guangzhou — has been listed in China’s mid- and long-term railway network plan for construction between 2016 and 2030. It will have a designed speed of 350 kilometers per hour.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> *Part of Guangzhou-Kunming High-speed Railway to open*
> Dec. 2, 2016
> Shenzhen Daily _Excerpt_
> 
> A SECTION of the Guangzhou-Kunming High-speed Railway will be opened Dec. 26, and when the whole rail line is completed, the trip from Shenzhen to Kunming, Yunnan Province, by high-speed train will be shortened from 29 hours to about 10 hours, the Shenzhen Evening News reported Thursday.
> 
> The soon-to-open section between Kunming and Nanning covers 710 kilometers, with 434 kilometers passing through Yunnan Province.


Then what are the due opening dates of railways:
Kunming-Guiyang?
Kunming-Nanning?


----------



## kunming tiger

Pert of? FRom where to where exactly?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

kunming tiger said:


> Pert of? FRom where to where exactly?


There have been planned railways:

Shanghai-Hangzhou-Nanchang-Changsha-Huaihua-Guiyang-Kunming, of which Shanghai-Guiyang has been opened
Guangzhou-Wuzhou-Nanning-Baise-Kunming, of which Guangzhou-Baise has been opened


----------



## voyager221

Hainan Eastern Ring HSR and CRH1A-A

By 动车摄影迷


----------



## voyager221

In northwest China























































By 李宁5525


----------



## VITORIA MAN

too big pics !!!


----------



## Gusiluz

chornedsnorkack said:


> Then what are the due opening dates of railways:
> Kunming-Guiyang?
> Kunming-Nanning?


Both are planned for this year:

Guiyang–Kunming 350 km/h 30/11/2016 368 o 461 km PDL 11
Baise–Kunming 200/250 km/h 06/2016 487 km PDL 16


----------



## voyager221

Shanghai-Kunming HSR Beipanjing Railway Bridge
Located in Qinglong, Guizhou, China


----------



## hkskyline

*More high-speed trains available in Jan.*
8 Dec. 2016
Shenzhen Daily

SHENZHEN travelers will be able to take a high-speed train to Kunming, Yunnan Province starting Jan. 5, when the new national train operation schedule takes effect.

According to the schedule released by Shenzhen North Railway Station, a new pair of high-speed trains, G2924/1 and G 2922/3, between Shenzhen North Railway Station and Kunming South Railway Station will be added to the new schedule.

The trip will take about seven hours, cutting 22 hours off the trip that regular express trains take between the two cities.

Train G2918/7, between Shenzhen and Guiyang, will be extended to Kunming and will be renamed G2926/7 and G2928/5.

The rail line between Guiyang and Kunming, which is scheduled to open Jan. 5, marks the completion and operation of the whole Shanghai-Kunming High-speed Railway that runs a total of 2,266 kilometers.

China Railway Corp. will add 135 pairs of new trains to the new schedule to increase the capacity of the Hangzhou-Shenzhen High-speed Railway and the Shanghai-Kunming High-speed Railway.

Starting Jan. 5, travelers will be able to take high-speed trains G71/2 and G80/79 between Futian Station and Beijing West Station. Futian Station will also operate inter-provincial trains between Shenzhen and Hunan cities in the new schedule.


----------



## voyager221

CRH2G at Baoji South

By John不是Jon


----------



## tjrgx

*Construction starts on 246km-long line in Hunan Province*


----------



## FM 2258

VITORIA MAN said:


> too big pics !!!


Perfect for my 30 inch screen! :cheers:


----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> There have been planned railways:
> 
> Shanghai-Hangzhou-Nanchang-Changsha-Huaihua-Guiyang-Kunming, of which Shanghai-Guiyang has been opened
> Guangzhou-Wuzhou-Nanning-Baise-Kunming, of which Guangzhou-Baise has been opened


_The railway linking Shanghai in east China and Kunming, capital of southwest China's Yunnan Province, is planned to be put into operation at the end of this month. _ 
Some nice scenic pics of test trains in Guizhou at http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2016-12/22/c_135925906.htm


----------



## hkskyline

_DSC5529 by Steven Hoober, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

*Work on Ganzhou-SZ rail line kicks off*
Dec. 23, 2016
Shenzhen Daily 

WORK on the Guangdong section of a high-speed rail that will link Ganzhou in Jiangxi Province and Shenzhen was officially initiated in Heyuan City on Thursday.

The 436-km high-speed rail line, with an estimated investment of 62 billion yuan (US$8.93 billion), will cut the trip from Shenzhen to Heyuan to 40 minutes when it is put into operation in 2020. The whole line will have 14 stations and the trip to Ganzhou will be cut to two hours.

The railway runs through about 300 kilometers of Guangdong, passing Heyuan, Huizhou and Dongguan and ending in Shenzhen. It will have a maximum speed of 350 kilometers per hour.

The Guangdong section will cost about 45.8 billion yuan, which will be jointly funded by the Guangdong Provincial Government and China Railway Corp.

The Guangdong Party chief, Hu Chunhua, said at the launch ceremony that the rail line will enhance ties between cities around the Pearl River Delta and northeastern Guangdong cities.

Work on the Shenzhen section of the railway was simultaneously initiated in Guangming New Area on Thursday.

The civil engineering work will start in May next year.

“This rail line is very important for Guangming New Area, where construction of urban complexes and industrial parks are under way,” said Wang Yan, deputy director with Guangming Urban Development Promotion Center.

The rail line will form part of a longer proposed high-speed rail link to Nanchang, Jiangxi and will be connected with the Xiamen-Shenzhen Railway to allow access to coastal Fujian cities.

The Ganzhou-Shenzhen high-speed rail line is the southern part of the Beijing-Kowloon high-speed railway.


----------



## Gusiluz

*China's first PPP financed high-speed railway starts construction*

China's first PPP financed high-speed railway starts construction



> China's first public-private partnership (PPP) funded high-speed railway project started construction in eastern province of Zhejiang Friday.
> The 269-km-long Hangzhou-Taizhou Intercity Passenger Line has a total investment of 44.9 billion yuan ($6.46 billion), with private capital contributing 51 percent of the investment.
> Private investors including Fosun Group, Zhejiang Geely Holding Group and Wanfeng Auto Holding Group will have a 30 year franchise period, with four years for construction and 26 years for operation.
> Local governments will offer subsidies to ensure the project's smooth operation, and take ownership of the project after the franchise expires.
> Giving holding status to private investors helps improve the project's management and operation and encourages more private enterprises to invest in infrastructure development, said Xu Kunlin, head of the investment department of the National Development and Reform Commission.
> Over 1,000 PPPs, with a total investment of about 1.8 trillion yuan, have been inked so far this year, with private firms playing the leading role.


----------



## hkskyline

*High-speed Kunming rail link opens*
Shanghai Daily _Excerpt_
December 27, 2016 

THE first high-speed train services from Shanghai to Kunming, capital of southwest China’s Yunnan Province, will begin next Thursday, the Shanghai Railway Bureau said yesterday.

The recently-completed Shanghai-Kunming high speed line will cut the travel time between the two cities by two thirds to only 10 hours and 36 minutes — a big relief to many local travelers going to the popular travel resort city famous for its beautiful scenery.

Kunming is also known as the Spring City due to its nice weather.

The journey on regular trains previously took 35 hours and 34 minutes.

The first three high-speed train services from Shanghai are scheduled to depart next Thursday and Friday from Hongqiao Railway Station.

Ticket sales were launched last night, priced at 879 yuan (US$126) for second class seats and 1,475 yuan for first class seats.

Running through six provinces — Shanghai, Zhejiang, Jiangxi, Hunan, Guizhou and Yunnan — the 2,252-kilometer railway is the longest east-west high-speed railroad and covers more provinces than any other service.


----------



## tjrgx

*2,252-km journey in 11 hours by train! China's longest east-west high-speed railway starts operation*





2,252-km journey in 11 hours! A high-speed railway linking Shanghai in east China and Kunming, capital of southwestern Yunnan Province, starts full operation. The Shanghai-Kunming line is the longest east-west high-speed railway in China. The launch of the line means China's high-speed rail grid has taken shape, connecting almost all provinces on the Chinese mainland.


----------



## tjrgx

*Shanghai-Kunming high-speed rail in full operation*

http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2016-12/28/content_27801706.htm

A major national high-speed railway line, Shanghai-Kunming high-speed rail, which links China's coastal and inland areas, began operating fully on Wednesday.

The 2,264-kilometer railway, stretching from the coastal city of Shanghai in the east, to Kunming, capital of Southwest China's Yunnan province, boasts the longest high-speed railway spanning the country.

The Guizhou west section between Kunming and Guiyang, the last section of the Shanghai-Kunming high-speed railway, began operating on Wednesday, marking the completion of the entire railway project.

The Shanghai-Kunming high-speed railway, or Hukun high-speed railway, is made of three sections: the Shanghai-Hangzhou high-speed railway, Hangzhou-Changsha high-speed railway and Changsha-Kunming high-speed railway.

The high-speed rail connects a dozen tourist destinations, including Shanghai, Hangzhou, Nanchang, Changsha, Guiyang and Kunming.

The high-speed rail cuts Shanghai-Kunming travel time from 34 to 11 hours.


----------



## gemsuresh

Kunming line is amazing piece of infra


----------



## foxmulder

Shanghai to Kunming... fantastic.


----------



## Gusiluz

The line Shanghai – Kunming has been designed for 350 km/h operation, with trains initially running at up to 330 km/h according to China Railway Corp.:cheers:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...anghai-kunming-high-speed-line-completed.html


----------



## Pansori

Gusiluz said:


> The line Shanghai – Kunming has been designed for 350 km/h operation, with trains initially running at up to 330 km/h according to China Railway Corp.:cheers:
> 
> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...anghai-kunming-high-speed-line-completed.html


Are trains actually going to run at 330km/h on the line or is it yet another false news and trains won't exceed 310km/h just like on all other 350km/h design lines?


----------



## tjrgx

*China starts building Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway*

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2016-12/29/content_27816904.htm

BEIJING -- Construction began Thursday on the Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway, part of broader efforts to develop the China's less prosperous southwest region.

With a length of 482 km, the railway line will cut travel time from Nanning to Guiyang from over 10 hours to 2 and a half hours, said Ding Rongfu, chairman of China Railway Airport Construction Group Co.

With a maximum speed of 350 km per hour, the line is expected to go into service in 2022.

Construction will be difficult due to complicated geography and landform, Ding said, adding that 106 tunnels have to be excavated along the line.

China has more than 20,000 km of high-speed railways. According to a government plan, mileage will increase to 45,000 km by 2030.


----------



## tjrgx

*China's Major East-West High-Speed Railway Starts Operation*






China on Wednesday put into operation one of the world's longest high-speed railways, linking the country's prosperous eastern coast to the less-developed southwest.

The Shanghai-Kunming high-speed railway -- 2,252 km in length -- traverses the five provinces of Zhejiang, Jiangxi, Hunan, Guizhou and Yunnan and cuts travel time from Shanghai to Kunming from 34 to 11 hours, according to China Railway Corporation.

The maximum speed is 330 km per hour, said Wang Jinda, a train driver.

The line is also the longest east-west high-speed railway in China. A longer rail line stretching north to south is the 2,298-km Beijing-Guangzhou line, put into operation in 2012.

China has built more than 20,000 km of high-speed rail lines. According to the government's plan, the mileage will reach 45,000 km by 2030. The launch of the Shanghai-Kunming line means the country's high-speed rail grid has taken shape, connecting almost all provinces on the Chinese mainland.


----------



## tjrgx

*New high-speed rail Kunming-Nanning line in SW China launched*






A high-speed rail line linking Kunming in Yunnan and Nanning in Guangxi was launched on Wednesday.


----------



## Oasis-Bangkok

Beijing-Shanghai high-speed rail Beijing departure station2 by Dionisos Olympian, on Flickr










Beijing-Shanghai high-speed rail Beijing departure station1 by Dionisos Olympian, on Flickr


----------



## Sunfuns

tjrgx said:


> http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2016-12/29/content_27816904.htm
> 
> BEIJING -- Construction began Thursday on the Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway, part of broader efforts to develop the China's less prosperous southwest region.
> 
> With a length of 482 km, the railway line will cut travel time from Nanning to Guiyang *from over 10 hours* to 2 and a half hours, said Ding Rongfu, chairman of China Railway Airport Construction Group Co.
> 
> With a maximum speed of 350 km per hour, the line is expected to go into service in 2022.
> 
> Construction will be difficult due to complicated geography and landform, Ding said, adding that 106 tunnels have to be excavated along the line.
> 
> China has more than 20,000 km of high-speed railways. According to a government plan, mileage will increase to 45,000 km by 2030.


Looking at the map there is already an indirect HS route between those two cities (Guiyang-Guilin and Guilin-Nanning). Does it really take 10 h to cover that distance (ca 800 km)?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ No, they are comparing what the current trains take by the same route, through Guilin it takes 5 hours and a half.





Pansori said:


> Gusiluz said:
> 
> 
> 
> The line Shanghai – Kunming has been designed for 350 km/h operation, with trains initially running at up to 330 km/h according to China Railway Corp.:cheers:
> 
> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...anghai-kunming-high-speed-line-completed.html
> 
> 
> 
> Are trains actually going to run at 330km/h on the line or is it yet another false news and trains won't exceed 310km/h just like on all other 350km/h design lines?
Click to expand...

Well, the news is from the Railway Gazette:


> The line has been designed for 350 km/h operation, with trains initially running at up to 330 km/h according to China Railway Corp.


In addition there was already news in this Thread about the speed increase.
Otherwise I would not have taken it for granted.

A little higher up a train driver also says.


----------



## Pansori

Would be great to see some evidence of actual speed once the revenue service begins.


----------



## conc.man

tjrgx said:


>


Amazing video, basically some skylights between tunnels


----------



## tjrgx

*30,000 km and $504 billion: China sets another target for its high-speed rail network*






The Chinese government seeks to expand the country's high-rail speed network to 30,000 kilometers by 2020, with an investment of 3.5 trillion yuan, or 504 billion U.S. dollars.


----------



## General Huo

This is 20 fold faster video and it is only Yunnan section from Kunming to border of Guizhou province. There are 39 tunnels, 76kms in total, in this section alone, including the 14.8km long Bibanpo tunnel.



tjrgx said:


>


----------



## dbhaskar

*Xinjiang section of HSR linking Urumqi, Xining*

Source: ECNS | Retrieved: Dec 30, 2016 PST










The Xinjiang section of high-speed railway linking Urumqi with Xining, capital of Qinghai Province, and Lanzhou, capital of Gansu Province, has carried more than 7.56 million passengers in the first two years of its operation.


----------



## Gusiluz

*New PDL inaugurated in 2016*

New PDL inaugurated in 2016 that I know:
Xuzhou–Zhengzhou 350 km/h 10/09/2016 362 km PDL 10
Wanzhou–Chongqing 250 km/h 28/11/2016 247 km PDL 12 B
Guiyang–Kunming 380 km/h 28/12/2016 461 km PDL 11 (Full PDL Shanghai-Kunming complete)
Baise–Kunming 250 km/h 28/12/2016 487 km PDL 16 (Full PDL Guangzhou-Kunming complete)
Total: 22.061 km (300/380 km/h: 10.157 km / 250 km/h: 11.904 km)







This is simply a local medium, but ...
The highest speed on the Shanghai-Kunming HSR is projected to be 380 kilometers per hour, with an average speed of 300 kilometers per hour.


----------



## tjrgx

*Longest high-speed train service launched in China*

China's longest high-speed train trip takes less than 13 hours. The 2,760-km route links the southwestern province of Yunnan to Beijing.


----------



## hkskyline

*Big update of train networks cuts travel time in China*
CRIENGLISH.com 
_Excerpt_
Jan. 6, 2017

China Railway Corporation (CRC), China's national railway operator, says that a large number of railway lines have started operation on Thursday.

135 pairs (two trains that go in opposite directions for the same line between two destinations) of passenger trains would go down the new lines.

A highlight of the update is that the operation of the high-speed rail from Beijing to southwest China's Kunming, the country's longest high-speed railway line, will cut down travel time between the two cities from 33 hours to about 13 hours.

The Beijing-Kunming high-speed line is 2,760 km in length, which is about the distance from Manchester, England to Athens, Greece (2,637 km).

The route passes through 6 provinces in China, making it the longest rail in the country, and takes a travel time of 12 hours and 53 minutes.

Other high-speed trains that connect big cities such as Guangzhou, Zhengzhou, Wuahan to Kunming southwest China would also be opened, shortening travel time significantly.

Meanwhile, Shanghai-Kunming high-speed railway, which opened in last December, has also reduced the traveling time between the two cities to about 11 hours from about 34 hours.

Apart from building new railway lines, the CRC is also going to extend some old lines. For example, a pair of trains that connect southeast China's Fuzhou and northeast China's Harbin would be extended to Jiamusi (located in the north of Harbin).


----------



## chornedsnorkack

On Kunming-Shanghai route, there seem to be 4 G trains daily. Trip time 11:15 to 12:12. Ticket price second class 879 yuan, first class 1475 yuan, business class 2765 yuan.
On the same route, there are 3 slow trains daily, all of them over 2 nights. Trip time 1:10:08 to 1:15:46. Ticket price hard seat 278 yuan 5 jiao or 293 yuan 5 jiao, hard sleeper 532 yuan or 561 yuan 5 jiao, soft sleeper 846 yuan or 890 yuan 5 jiao.

Kunming-Beijing has 2 G trains daily. Trip time 12:11 and 13:13. Ticket price second class 1147 yuan 5 jiao, first class 1877 yuan 5 jiao.
On the same route, there are 4 slow trains daily, 3 of them over 2 nights and Z54 overnight. Trip time 1:09:22 to 1:23:38. Ticket price hard seat 302 yuan 5 jiao or 317 yuan, hard sleeper 549 yuan 5 jiao or 575 yuan, soft sleeper 851 yuan 5 jiao or 887 yuan.

Kunming-Guangzhou has 2 G trains daily via Guiyang. Trip time 6:13 and 6:17. Ticket price second class 480 yuan, first class 679 yuan, VIP seat 886 yuan, business class 1474 yuan. There are also 12 D trains daily via Nanning. Trip time 8:52 to 9:36. Ticket price second class 434 yuan 5 jiao, first class 626 yuan 5 jiao.
On the same route there are 3 slow trains overnight. Trip time 1:00:39 to 1:04:03. Ticket price hard seat 192 yuan, hard sleeper 351 yuan or 370 yuan 5 jiao, soft sleeper 583 yuan.


----------



## hkskyline

For Kunming - Shanghai, I can easily find last-minute one-way flights for CNY 600. Seems the train is not cheaper.


----------



## Gusiluz

*2016 passengers in CRH trains*

China Railway sets out 2017 targets. IRJ January 04, 2017



> In 2016 the network carried a record 2.7 billion passengers, an increase of 11.2% year-on-year, with 1.44 billion of these trips on its high-speed network, which now exceeds 20,000km. Internet tickets accounted for 60% of total sales, with mobile phone tickets accounting for 40% of the total.


1.44 billion refers to passengers transported on CRH trains (+31.3%), both conventional and HSR lines. In 2015 they were 1.1 billion (0.91 circulated only for HSR).

Thousands of passengers in CRH trains:
2013	672,000 
2014	893,200 
2015	1,100,000 
2016	1,444,000 

Thousands of passengers in HSR lines:
2007	86,500 
2008	127,400 
2009	179,580 
2010	290,540 
2011	440,000 
2012	485,500 
2013	530,000 
2014	
2015	910,000 
2016 

Chinese Maps of all types updated to January 2017.


On this page it says that the G1373 train takes 10 h 36 m between Shanghai and Kunming.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

The total number of G trains Kunming-Guiyang seems to be 19.
Kunming-Changsha has 12 G trains, trip time 5:00 to 6:23.


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS




----------



## flankerjun

*Ticket Warehouse*


----------



## Ghostpoet

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...zhuzhou-xiangtan-intercity-railway-opens.html



> CHINA: The Changsha – Zhuzhou – Xiangtan Intercity Railway in Hunan Province opened for passenger services on December 26. There are 21 stations on the 95·5 km Y-shared route from Changsha to the two termini. Services are operated using eight-car CRH6F electric trainsets from CRRC Qingdao Sifang.
> The alignment is designed for 200 km/h operation, although trains are initially limited to 160 km/h. This gives a journey time of around 39 min from Changsha to Zhuzhou or Xiangtan, which is expected to be reduced to around 30 min when operating speeds are raised to the full design speed.


Ghostpoet


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Ghostpoet said:


> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...zhuzhou-xiangtan-intercity-railway-opens.html
> 
> 
> 
> Ghostpoet


What is the actual end to end distance, like Changsha-Zhuzhou?


----------



## Short

VECTROTALENZIS said:


>


The Guangyuan - Minxian section of the Chongqing to Lanzhou high speed railway has opened as of last month.

As for high speed railways under construction, there is an undocumented project that I have not seen published or reported on anywhere. It is an extension of the Emei Shan branchline that runs south into the mountains. I know it exists simply because I have been to the construction site just south of Ebian, Sichuan where they were blasting a tunnel under a friend's village during August 2016. It is a CRH line but I have no idea about the extent of the project. My friend's family could not tell me anything except for what was happening locally.


----------



## xinxingren

Short said:


> The Guangyuan - Minxian section of the Chongqing to Lanzhou high speed railway has opened as of last month.


I noticed Xinhua News photos about this showing happy travellers getting into green and yellow coaches at Longnan 



Short said:


> As for high speed railways under construction, there is an undocumented project that I have not seen published or reported on anywhere. It is an extension of the Emei Shan branchline that runs south into the mountains. I know it exists simply because I have been to the construction site just south of Ebian, Sichuan where they were blasting a tunnel under a friend's village during August 2016. It is a CRH line but I have no idea about the extent of the project. My friend's family could not tell me anything except for what was happening locally.


In November 2014 I followed most of the ChengKun line by bicycle. I saw piers for a HSR bridge across a small valley with a split of the lines at the northwest outskirts of Miyi, between Xichang - Panzhihua. I looked hard but did not see any other signs of HSR south of Emei. So it sounds like a low priority project at least from Chengdu to Panzhihua, the junction probably at Leshan. All mainline regular trains from Kunming to Guangtong had by then (Nov. 2014) switched to a new upgraded route, difficult to tell with so much of it inside mountains whether it's HSR-200km/hr or one of the Normal-160km/hr lines.

The latest "official" news I have is from 2012 that the ChengKun HSR would go straight down the middle. Maybe there's a strategic reason for going to Panzhihua, then turning right up onto the Tibetan plateau. 

I can't get the pic to link but it's the top one on this page https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=tS&page_id=398124


----------



## Short

xinxingren said:


> I noticed Xinhua News photos about this showing happy travellers getting into green and yellow coaches at Longnan
> 
> 
> 
> In November 2014 I followed most of the ChengKun line by bicycle. I saw piers for a HSR bridge across a small valley with a split of the lines at the northwest outskirts of Miyi, between Xichang - Panzhihua. I looked hard but did not see any other signs of HSR south of Emei. So it sounds like a low priority project at least from Chengdu to Panzhihua, the junction probably at Leshan. All mainline regular trains from Kunming to Guangtong had by then (Nov. 2014) switched to a new upgraded route, difficult to tell with so much of it inside mountains whether it's HSR-200km/hr or one of the Normal-160km/hr lines.
> 
> The latest "official" news I have is from 2012 that the ChengKun HSR would go straight down the middle. Maybe there's a strategic reason for going to Panzhihua, then turning right up onto the Tibetan plateau.
> 
> I can't get the pic to link but it's the top one on this page https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=tS&page_id=398124


I had made that same assumption, however with the Chengdu-Kunming Railway being such a famous and iconic line, I would have imagined a high-speed duplication to have some more prestige and promotion as a project. I can see how minor high speed lines within or near a major city could be constructed with little fanfare as a local commuter project. However this project is a major undertaking, running through some extreme mountainous terrain.

The new high speed line is being built north-south through Ebian, while the Chengdu-Kunming Railway travels east-west along the river. To the north, it will connect to the Emei Shan branch, but I have no idea where it expected to go heading south.


----------



## flankerjun

*Wuhan High speed train Yard.Taken on Jan 13*


----------



## YKC

*The lure of speed - China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network*

Interesting article from the Economist about the massive rewards and challenges that China has gained from HSR

economist.com/news/china/21714383-and-theres-lot-more-come-it-waste-money-china-has-built-worlds-largest



> The lure of speed
> China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network
> And there’s a lot more to come. But is it a waste of money?
> Jan 14th 2017 | SUZHOU, ANHUI PROVINCE
> 
> “THESE are fields of hope,” says Gu Zhen’an, gesturing at a barren scene. A burly chain-smoker, he spent 25 years overseeing road-building crews in central China. But three years ago, when he finished paving a highway to a new high-speed railway station in this quiet corner of Anhui province, he decided it was time to switch industries. The land still looks empty, served by first-rate infrastructure but home to few people and fewer businesses. Mr Gu, however, sees things differently: he expects a city to sprout up around the train station. In anticipation, he has built an old-age home, with plans to expand it into a complex for 5,000 people.
> 
> To appreciate the extent of China’s high-speed rail ambitions, take Mr Gu’s dreams and multiply them many times over. Less than a decade ago China had yet to connect any of its cities by bullet train. Today, it has 20,000km (12,500 miles) of high-speed rail lines, more than the rest of the world combined. It is planning to lay another 15,000km by 2025 (see map). Just as astonishing is urban growth alongside the tracks. At regular intervals—almost wherever there are stations, even if seemingly in the middle of nowhere—thickets of newly built offices and residential blocks rise from the ground.
> 
> China’s planners hope these will be like the railway towns that sprouted (at a slower pace) in America and Britain in the 19th century. In their rush to build, waste is inevitable. The question is whether gains will outweigh losses. Five years after the busiest bullet trains started running (the Beijing-Shanghai line opened in 2011), a tentative verdict is possible. In the densest parts of China, high-speed rail has been a boon: it is helping to create a deeply connected economy. But further inland, risks are mounting of excessive investment.
> 
> In China’s three big population centres—the areas around Beijing in the north, Shanghai in the east and Guangzhou, the capital of Guangdong province, in the south—life and work have started to follow the sinews of the high-speed rail system. Trains were previously too infrequent, too slow and too crowded to allow for daily commutes. Now, each of these three mega-cities is developing commuter corridors.
> 
> Little wonder: house prices in satellite towns and cities tend to be much cheaper. In Kunshan, for example, homes cost about 70% less than in nearby Shanghai. But the bullet train between the two cities takes just 19 minutes and costs a mere 25 yuan ($3.60). And Kunshan is just one of many options for those seeking to escape Shanghai’s high costs. There are now about 75m people living within an hour of the city by high-speed rail.
> 
> Surveys show that more than half of passengers on the busiest lines are “generated traffic”—that is, people making trips that they would not have made before. This is unquestionably good for the economy. It means the trains are expanding the pool of labour and consumers around China’s most productive cities, while pushing investment and technology to poorer ones. Xu Xiangshang, a dapper businessman, oversees sales of apartments built next to high-speed railway stations in less well-off parts of Anhui. These are less than half an hour from Nanjing, a prosperous city of 8m that is the capital of Jiangsu province. “Bullet trains are becoming just like buses,” he says.
> 
> The economic benefits are hard to measure precisely. Traditional analyses focus on the financial performance of high-speed rail lines, plus indirect results such as reduced road congestion (see article). But bullet trains are more than just a mode of transport. China wants to build a “high-speed rail economy”. It is a twist on the theory of urban agglomeration—the idea that the bigger the city, the wealthier and more productive its people tend to be. The idea is to cap the size of mega-cities, but achieve the agglomeration effect with the help of bullet trains. China reckons that the resulting network of large, but not oversize, cities will be easier to manage. The World Bank, for one, is optimistic. In a report published in 2014 it said the benefits of high-speed rail would be “very substantial”, potentially boosting the productivity of businesses in China’s coastal regions by 10%.
> 
> *Not all are aboard*
> But might regular, reliable, fast-enough trains around big cities have been almost as good as high-speed rail, at a fraction of the price? The OECD, a rich-country think-tank, reckons it costs 90% more to build lines for trains that reach 350kph than it does to lay ones that allow speeds of 250kph. For longer lines with more than 100m passengers a year and travel times of five hours or less—such as the one between Beijing and Shanghai—the more expensive type may be justifiable.
> 
> It is less so for journeys between commuter towns, during which trains only briefly accelerate to top speeds. For longer journeys serving sparse populations—a description that fits many of the lines in western and northern China—high-speed rail is prohibitively expensive.
> 
> The overall bill is already high. China Railway Corporation, the state-owned operator of the train system, has debts of more than 4trn yuan, equal to about 6% of GDP. Strains were evident last year when China Railway Materials, an equipment-maker, was forced to restructure part of its debts. Six lines have started to make operating profits (ie, not counting construction costs), with the Beijing-Shanghai link the world’s most profitable bullet train, pulling in 6.6bn yuan last year. But in less populated areas, they are making big losses. A state-run magazine said the line between Guangzhou and the province of Guizhou owes 3bn yuan per year in interest payments—three times more than it makes from ticket sales.
> 
> Many had thought China would rein in its ambitions after the fall of Liu Zhijun, a railway minister who was once revered as the father of the bullet-train system. In 2011 he was removed for corruption. Shortly after, a high-speed rail crash caused by a signalling failure killed 40 people. The mighty railway ministry was disbanded and folded into the transport ministry. China slowed its fastest trains down from a world-beating 350kph to a safer 300kph. The bullet trains have run with few glitches since the tragic crash.
> 
> But the network expansion now under way is even bolder than Mr Liu had envisaged. China has a four-by-four grid at present: four big north-south and east-west lines. Its new plan is to construct an eight-by-eight grid by 2035. The ultimate goal is to have 45,000km of high-speed track. Zhao Jian of Beijing Jiaotong University, who has long criticised the high-speed push, reckons that only 5,000km of this will be in areas with enough people to justify the cost. “With each new line, the losses will get bigger,” he says.
> 
> Making matters worse, China has often placed railway stations far from city centres. Bigger cities should eventually grow around their stations, but suburban locations will not produce the same economic dividends as central locations. In smaller cities, prospects are even bleaker. In Xiaogan in Hubei province, the station was built 100km from the city. The decision to base stations so far away reflects the realities of high-speed rail: for trains to run fast, tracks need to be straight. But that limits potential gains from lines as they traverse China. Wang Lan of Tongji University in Shanghai says the government should turn isolated stations into transportation hubs by adding new rail connections to other nearby places. That, though, would be another big expense.
> 
> Dangers are all too visible in the city of Suzhou in Anhui province (not to be confused with the successful example of Suzhou in Jiangsu). Its station is 45km from the city centre in the barren landscape where Mr Gu lives in hope. The government thought it would spark development. It paved eight-lane roads to serve a vast industrial park on one side of the station. Investors built clothing, food and pharmaceutical factories. But all are closed, except for a paper mill. Undeterred, the government is building a commercial district on the other side of the station.
> 
> Nearby, Mr Gu’s old-age home is off to a good start, with help from a local hospital. Down the road there is a drab collection of stores, restaurants and houses. This was meant to be the kernel of the new railway town: people were resettled here to make way for the tracks. Two older residents say they are sure that better days are just around the corner. They have heard that the government will move in 100,000 people from a part of western China plagued by landslides. Suzhou will provide the new arrivals with a place to live and they, in turn, will provide the town with the population it needs to thrive. But it is impossible to confirm the rumour—one more article of hope in what China likes to call its “high-speed rail dream”.


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## Short

YKC said:


> Interesting article from the Economist about the massive rewards and challenges that China has gained from HSR
> 
> economist.com/news/china/21714383-and-theres-lot-more-come-it-waste-money-china-has-built-worlds-largest


This is an interesting article but I feel flawed. However given the short timespan, it is harsh to judge some parts of the high speed network as it does. This whole network is about a new way of thinking and development. I understand that there will be hits and misses too but it will take time for a whole new ecology to develop around the high speed network.

The Guangzhou-Guiyang HSR is three years younger than the Beijing-Shanghai HSR, so it should not be as developed or as profitable as the older project. Plus this line is only a short segment of a larger network connecting Chengdu, the whole of Sichuan and Chongqing with Guangzhou. It would be like trying to judge the older project just on the Nanjing-Shanghai segment.

To have not built a high speed rail network, the existing conventional rail would have not been able to cope. Many parts of it were already maxed out and not capable of handling increased services. Where as now, freight traffic can expand as fast passenger traffic is taken off the older network, plus has sped up other time sensitive services where freight trains can share the high speed network. This has enabled the economy to expand greatly in many areas, while it it is still early days yet for the whole network.

It has reduced a reliance on air travel across China where the airports could not have expanded at the same rate (to keep up with travel demand that the HSR has created) and airspace is heavily regulated and congested.

The other benefits to society has also seen the need to duplicate medical, educational and economic services in every third or fourth tier city. The pressure has been reduced as patients, students and business people can quickly and more easily access services in larger neighbouring cities. For example, expensive MRI machines are not needed to be provided in every hospital in order to receive first class modern medical care, taking pressure off the health budget, as patients from a satellite town can make a day visit to a larger city for their medical procedure.

While China has a quirky system of funding the railways through loans, rather than taxation, the question of how is China going to pay for this HSR network should be balanced with what is the cost if China had not build it. Economic stagnation and a reduction in the quality of life is my opinion.

It is still very early days, it remains to be seen how the ecology evolves in China around high speed rail over the next decade and beyond.


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## chornedsnorkack

Economist said:


> It is planning to lay another 15,000km by 2025 (see map).





Economist said:


> And Kunshan is just one of many options for those seeking to escape Shanghai’s high costs. There are now about 75m people living within an hour of the city by high-speed rail.


How many stations exist within an hour of Shanghai?


Economist said:


> But might regular, reliable, fast-enough trains around big cities have been almost as good as high-speed rail, at a fraction of the price?
> The OECD, a rich-country think-tank, reckons it costs 90% more to build lines for trains that reach 350kph than it does to lay ones that allow speeds of 250kph.


Emphatically agreed.
For the price of 15 000 km of 350 km/h lines, China might instead build 28 000 km 250 km/h lines.

And lines designed for 200 km/h or 160 km/h or 120 km/h would be even cheaper...



Economist said:


> The decision to base stations so far away reflects the realities of high-speed rail: for trains to run fast, tracks need to be straight. But that limits potential gains from lines as they traverse China. Wang Lan of Tongji University in Shanghai says the government should turn isolated stations into transportation hubs by adding new rail connections to other nearby places. That, though, would be another big expense.


Agreed. For a price of 1000 km of 350 km/h line, China could build twice as much 250 km/h lines, with 4 times as many stations, and these closer to existing towns.
But another obvious suggestion: build high speed stations on existing slow speed lines!
Think of it. The high speed line needs to avoid detours, so it skips through the suburbs of existing cities.
But some slow speed railways exist through suburban landscape.
Therefore pick a point in generally empty countryside where a high speed line has to cross an existing slow speed line. And build there a station on both lines. And put frequent commuter trains on the old slow speed line, to connect the existing centre.


Short said:


> The other benefits to society has also seen the need to duplicate medical, educational and economic services in every third or fourth tier city. The pressure has been reduced as patients, students and business people can quickly and more easily access services in larger neighbouring cities. For example, expensive MRI machines are not needed to be provided in every hospital in order to receive first class modern medical care, taking pressure off the health budget, as patients from a satellite town can make a day visit to a larger city for their medical procedure.


Meaning that people who are by definition sick already have to make their way from their homes, concentrated in central parts of a fourth tier city, to a remote station in the middle of nowhere, and then from the station also in the middle of nowhere to a hospital somewhere in the second tier city...


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## Gusiluz

^^ Too many words, so we'll have to put some data:


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## skyridgeline

YKC said:


> Interesting article from the Economist about the massive rewards and challenges that China has gained from HSR
> 
> economist.com/news/china/21714383-and-theres-lot-more-come-it-waste-money-china-has-built-worlds-largest


Speculative and with a touch of "the glass is half full" ranting. Economists are time challenged. Transport infrastructures have a lifespan of 25 -75 years. An honest economist's view about time ...












chornedsnorkack said:


> How many stations exist within an hour of Shanghai?
> 
> Emphatically agreed.
> For the price of 15 000 km of 350 km/h lines, China might instead build 28 000 km 250 km/h lines.
> 
> And lines designed for 200 km/h or 160 km/h or 120 km/h would be even cheaper...
> 
> 
> Agreed. For a price of 1000 km of 350 km/h line, China could build twice as much 250 km/h lines, with 4 times as many stations, and these closer to existing towns.
> But another obvious suggestion: build high speed stations on existing slow speed lines!
> Think of it. The high speed line needs to avoid detours, so it skips through the suburbs of existing cities.
> But some slow speed railways exist through suburban landscape.
> Therefore pick a point in generally empty countryside where a high speed line has to cross an existing slow speed line. And build there a station on both lines. And put frequent commuter trains on the old slow speed line, to connect the existing centre.
> 
> Meaning that people who are by definition sick already have to make their way from their homes, concentrated in central parts of a fourth tier city, to a remote station in the middle of nowhere, and then from the station also in the middle of nowhere to a hospital somewhere in the second tier city...



1- what will happen in 25 - 40 years?
2- ~ 250 km/h is for commuting and might not sell well for long distance travel
3- ~ 600 km/h may be the new "high speed" in the near future
4- traveling over long distances for various special services is to be expected


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## chornedsnorkack

skyridgeline said:


> Speculative and with a touch of "the glass is half full" ranting. Economists are time challenged. Transport infrastructures have a lifespan of 25 -75 years. An honest economist's view about time ...
> 
> 1- what will happen in 25 - 40 years?


What is China doing with 25-75 old infrastructure?
Kowloon-Canton railway was opened in 1910. It then had 3 stations in Hong Kong.
By 1956, there were 5 stations.
By 1980, the railway was 70 years old, single track and unelectrified.
In 1980s, Hong Kong double tracked the railway, electrified it - and also added 6 stations.
As a result, Hong Kong has a rapid, electrified commuter railway with 2 tracks, 12 or so stations in 36 km, frequent passenger service - and shared with long distance rail.
What has mainland done with their section of Kowloon-Canton railway? How many passenger stations operate between Guangzhou and Nangang? Shanghai and Anting?


skyridgeline said:


> 2- ~ 250 km/h is for commuting and might not sell well for long distance travel


No, it´s too fast. 160 km/h is better to keep people off buses and private cars on roads.


skyridgeline said:


> 3- ~ 600 km/h may be the new "high speed" in the near future


Chuo Shinkansen, 505 km/h, is to open in 2027. What are Chinese building?


skyridgeline said:


> 4- traveling over long distances for various special services is to be expected


Um, no. The alternative was building special services where people are, remember.
But the distance home to service includes not just the rapid trip station to station, but the long and slow trips both ends to the stations in the middle of nowhere.


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## hightower1

chornedsnorkack said:


> But the distance home to service includes not just the rapid trip station to station, but the long and slow trips both ends to the stations in the middle of nowhere.


Will the stations be in the middle of nowhere in 20-30 years when Chinas urban population is expected to increase by -according to some estimates - 400 million people?


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## chornedsnorkack

hightower1 said:


> Will the stations be in the middle of nowhere in 20-30 years when Chinas urban population is expected to increase by -according to some estimates - 400 million people?


Maybe not. But then you have 700 million people in the old towns, left behind by high speed railway, and just 400 millions in the new towns built next to HSR stations.


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## foxmulder

Hahahaa, even The Economist has to write something *positive* in their China High Speed Rail articles now! Even 2 years ago it was all gloom and doom, lol.


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## foxmulder

chornedsnorkack said:


> Maybe not. But then you have 700 million people in the old towns, left behind by high speed railway, and just 400 millions in the new towns built next to HSR stations.


"By" not "to" 400 million. Chinese urban population is already way more than 400 million more like 700 million now. It is all connected with metro lines anyway, too.


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## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> "By" not "to" 400 million. Chinese urban population is already way more than 400 million more like 700 million now. It is all connected with metro lines anyway, too.


Precisely - I quoted 700 million people to be left behind in old towns.

How many people now live in China in cities that don´t have metro?


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## Sunfuns

Vast majority, I'd guess but that's completely normal isn't it?


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## saiho

chornedsnorkack said:


> Precisely - I quoted 700 million people to be left behind in old towns.
> 
> How many people now live in China in cities that don´t have metro?


Well intercity (actually regional) HSR lines and suburban metro lines will fill in the gap. Its better right now for China to build new corridors when acquiring property is still easy just like the US, Europe and Japan was back in the day. Upgrading the existing can be done when China develops more and greenfield subway and HSR costs get too high. A lot of the intercity lines are basically just paralleling the slow speed railways anyways.


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## chornedsnorkack

Sunfuns said:


> Vast majority, I'd guess but that's completely normal isn't it?


What isn´t normal is absence of functioning commuter rail network.

Japan has 9 cities with subways.
Japan also has 27 000 km of railways. 
Tokyo metro has 304 km of lines and 274 stations.
Yet the metro stations make up just 274 out of 882 stations in Tokyo - meaning that Tokyo has over 600 non-metro rail stations.
How many non-metro rail stations are receiving passenger service in Shanghai? Beijing? Guangzhou?


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## Sunfuns

In large cities metro could conceivably replace suburban rail entirely. In any case the distinction between metro and suburban rail is a bit fuzzy. A more relevant question to ask is how many total rail (whatever kind) stations there are in Shanghai or Beijing. If the answer 500-600 then I see no problem.


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## ccdk

KillerZavatar said:


> that Dalian - Yantai bridge is nuts!
> 
> edit: apparently it will be a tunnel, not a bridge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohai_Strait_tunnel


Thanks for pointing that out, corrected :cheers:


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> I hope you can do some research on Shenzhen's history before posting so many ignorant remarks here.
> 
> A "city" cannot be defined based on population alone. The area where Shenzhen sits today was populated by numerous villages that numbered less than 30,000 people. It was not one big town. People were not commuting within this "city", but getting by with their everyday lives on the basic within their village clusters.


Oh, sure. The population of the 2050 square km of Baoan County in 1978 was about 300 000.
Most of these were rural people - scattered across the landscape in small villages at walking distance of their fields.
But not all these 300 000 people were evenly spread. Central places did exist. Such as Shenzhen and Nantong.
Shenzhen of 1978 had about 20 000 people within 3 square km. That many could not be fed by farming these 3 square km, nor by fields within walking distance. They must have been doing something else than farming, even in 1978.


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## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Oh, sure. The population of the 2050 square km of Baoan County in 1978 was about 300 000.
> Most of these were rural people - scattered across the landscape in small villages at walking distance of their fields.
> But not all these 300 000 people were evenly spread. Central places did exist. Such as Shenzhen and Nantong.
> Shenzhen of 1978 had about 20 000 people within 3 square km. That many could not be fed by farming these 3 square km, nor by fields within walking distance. They must have been doing something else than farming, even in 1978.


What makes you think they were only farming? If you look at a map, you will easily see the area borders a big river, which leads to the great big South China Sea. Fishing villages and pirates dotted the coastline.

Agricultural families are traditionally big, and China already had over 900 million people when Deng Xiaopeng announced economic reforms in the late 1970s. At the time, over 80% of the population lived in rural areas, so a sprinkle of a couple tens of thousands is nothing in the grand scheme of things. The area was a rural outpost, and not a major urban centre.

The key urban focal point at the time was Guangzhou, which had developed into a major trading centre between the West and China for hundreds of years prior to modern Shenzhen's creation by Deng Xiaopeng. 

Suggest you do some researching on the area, such as this decent article : https://www.theguardian.com/cities/...ral-village-to-the-worlds-largest-megalopolis


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## chornedsnorkack

xinxingren said:


> Otherwise if it's just one of the 160km/hr upgrades they've been doing on some trunk lines, then it's a faster slow speed railway, with the advantage of double track but limited by most of the rolling stock to 120km/hr.


You mean there are now a total of 3 slow speed tracks between Kunming and Guangtong - 1 track on the old slow line and 2 tracks on the new slow line?


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## voyager221




----------



## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> You mean there are now a total of 3 slow speed tracks between Kunming and Guangtong - 1 track on the old slow line and 2 tracks on the new slow line?


Well, yes, in a manner of speaking. The old line was single track, with passing loops at wayside stations. The new line is double-track, also with passing loops at Lufeng and Guangtong. We don't have any useful information whether it is slow speed (160km/hr), or maybe a true HSR (250 or 350km/hr) that's just waiting for a.) the connection to the main lines east at Kunming South station that happened just a month ago, and b.) The connection thru the suburbs of Kunming between Anning and Kunming South. 

BTW it's now over 2 years since I travelled on a slow speed train at 94km/hr on what was touted as the "newly opened High Speed Rail" link between Zhanjiang and Maoming. How's that doing now? Is it any closer to the main grid yet? Running slow trains on sections of line like this is good for train running times and track maintenance. But what will happen to the slow traffic when a full HSR schedule starts running?


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> What makes you think they were only farming?





hkskyline said:


> The area was a rural outpost...





hkskyline said:


> Agricultural families are traditionally big, and China already had over 900 million people when Deng Xiaopeng announced economic reforms in the late 1970s. At the time, over 80% of the population lived in rural areas, so a sprinkle of a couple tens of thousands is nothing in the grand scheme of things.


In the grand scheme of things, just a thousand towns of couple tens of thousands sprinkled around China would be tens of millions of people taken together.


hkskyline said:


> The area was a rural outpost, and not a major urban centre.


The area was countryside sprinkled with small urban centres.


hkskyline said:


> The key urban focal point at the time was Guangzhou, which had developed into a major trading centre between the West and China for hundreds of years prior to modern Shenzhen's creation by Deng Xiaopeng.


Yes. Guangzhou was the biggest urban centre - 150 km away.
Did the towns of Nantou and Shenzhen function as centres of trade, services and transportation for surrounding villages?


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## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Yes. Guangzhou was the biggest urban centre - 150 km away.
> Did the towns of Nantou and Shenzhen function as centres of trade, services and transportation for surrounding villages?


Nothing significant. Period.


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> Nothing significant. Period.


Insignificant like this:
https://encounteringurbanization.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/picture3.png



xinxingren said:


> I travelled on a slow speed train at 94km/hr on what was touted as the "newly opened High Speed Rail" link between Zhanjiang and Maoming.


Another problem with Chinese slow speed rail. All they have for single track unelectrified lines is diesel locomotives.
In my area, a single track unelectrified line first built in 1870 still means DMU service, top speed 120 km/h for most stretches.


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## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Insignificant like this:
> https://encounteringurbanization.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/picture3.png


You don't know much about Chinese history. Look up Beijing a few hundred years before and Shanghai a few decades before. Those are what we consider significant.

This link contained the photo you showed, which you did not source : https://encounteringurbanization.wordpress.com/2011/06/22/shenzhen-the-instant-city/

The text included : 

_Since the establishment of the Special Economic Zone in the late 1970’s, Shenzhen has seen unprecedented growth from a village of 30,000 to a city of over 325 times that._

A village. That's what that was.


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## saiho

*Guangzhu Intercity Railway orders CRH6F*

The start of "Metroization" of the Guangzhu Intercity Railway.










Source

Picture Source


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## chornedsnorkack

How many stations exist in 116 km between Guangzhou and Zhuhai?
I see reported 15:

Bijiang 5
Beijiao 11
Shunde 15
Shunde College 23
Ronggui 32
Nantou 37
Xiaolan 45
Dongsheng 52
Zhongshan North 64
Zhongshan 70
Nanlang 83
Zhuhai North 93
Tangjiawan 97
Mingzhu 109
Qianshan 113
Also, for some reasons Cuiheng has not been completed.
How well are these served?
Edit: finding some data

Guangzhou-Bijiang 6/day
Guangzhou-Beijiao 6/day
Guangzhou-Shunde 37/day
Guangzhou-Shunde College 5/day
Guangzhou-Ronggui 39/day
Guangzhou-Nantou 10/day
Guangzhou-Xiaolan 58/day
Guangzhou-Dongsheng 4/day
Guangzhou-Zhongshan North 35/day
Guangzhou-Zhongshan 12/day, of which 4 are long haul
Guangzhou-Nanlang 5/day
Guangzhou-Zhuhai North 4/day
Guangzhou-Tangjiawan 8/day
Guangzhou-Mingzhu 16/day
Guangzhou-Qianshan 3/day
Guangzhou-Zhuhai 43/day, of which 4 are long haul


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## abcpdo

xinxingren said:


> Well, yes, in a manner of speaking. The old line was single track, with passing loops at wayside stations. The new line is double-track, also with passing loops at Lufeng and Guangtong. We don't have any useful information whether it is slow speed (160km/hr), or maybe a true HSR (250 or 350km/hr) that's just waiting for a.) the connection to the main lines east at Kunming South station that happened just a month ago, and b.) The connection thru the suburbs of Kunming between Anning and Kunming South.



From my visual experience the high speed rail line between Kunming and Dali is still u/c, thereby by deduction the current "new" double track cannot be true high speed rail.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> You don't know much about Chinese history. Look up Beijing a few hundred years before and Shanghai a few decades before. Those are what we consider significant.


Um? Both were the largest cities of China.


hkskyline said:


> This link contained the photo you showed, which you did not source : https://encounteringurbanization.wordpress.com/2011/06/22/shenzhen-the-instant-city/
> 
> The text included


Yes. That´s why. The text distracts from the obvious evidence of the photo.


hkskyline said:


> :
> 
> _Since the establishment of the Special Economic Zone in the late 1970’s, Shenzhen has seen unprecedented growth from a village of 30,000 to a city of over 325 times that._
> 
> A village. That's what that was.


Manifestly false.
Huaxi had 2000 people once upon a time, and then it was a village in truth. Even though Huaxi has not been administratively reclassified into anything else now that 50 000 immigrants live there, it is no longer a village in the main meaning of the word - any more than Yuzovka was.

Look again at the picture of Shenzhen in 1970. A lot of multistorey buildings that are obviously not single family residences. That´s an urban centre, not a rural area or "village".


----------



## saiho

chornedsnorkack said:


> Um? Both were the largest cities of China.
> 
> Yes. That´s why. The text distracts from the obvious evidence of the photo.


Pretty sure its just a stock photo of Shenzhen. We have no way of telling when it was taken. Considering 5 years makes a big difference in Shenzhen any guesswork based on this image is pure speculation. 



chornedsnorkack said:


> Manifestly false.
> Huaxi had 2000 people once upon a time, and then it was a village in truth. Even though Huaxi has not been administratively reclassified into anything else now that 50 000 immigrants live there, it is no longer a village in the main meaning of the word - any more than Yuzovka was.
> 
> Look again at the picture of Shenzhen in 1970. A lot of multistorey buildings that are obviously not single family residences. That´s an urban centre, not a rural area or "village".


Steering this a bit closer to on topic. The point is (and everyone seems to get it) railways play a much less pronounced role in determining where large settlements and population congregate in China so there is really no urgency to provide these rural local services when there are much greater priorities in the development of the rail network. Also it is not like there are no plans to get suburban rail in the old lines. I have seen plans to put more local services on old main lines and the existing/future ICRs are gradually becoming more S-bahn like.


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Um? Both were the largest cities of China.
> 
> Yes. That´s why. The text distracts from the obvious evidence of the photo.
> 
> Manifestly false.
> Huaxi had 2000 people once upon a time, and then it was a village in truth. Even though Huaxi has not been administratively reclassified into anything else now that 50 000 immigrants live there, it is no longer a village in the main meaning of the word - any more than Yuzovka was.
> 
> Look again at the picture of Shenzhen in 1970. A lot of multistorey buildings that are obviously not single family residences. That´s an urban centre, not a rural area or "village".


You obviously don't understand how people live in China. A cluster of multistory buildings does not make a city. In the West, there are more defined legal structures such as incorporation that can make this distinction. In the Chinese context, this part of China was never a "city" by any means. Hence, the text caption in your source is entirely correct.

What part of the world would use such flimsy visual evidence to classify urban and rural areas?

I hope you realize that tall structures existed in ancient China. Clusters of them. They included temples and pagodas. The "multistorey" buildings in that photo are not highrises anyway.


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## chornedsnorkack

chornedsnorkack said:


> Bijiang 5
> Beijiao 11
> Shunde 15
> Shunde College 23
> Ronggui 32
> Nantou 37
> Xiaolan 45
> Dongsheng 52
> Zhongshan North 64
> 
> Guangzhou-Bijiang 6/day
> Guangzhou-Beijiao 6/day
> Guangzhou-Shunde 37/day
> Guangzhou-Shunde College 5/day
> Guangzhou-Ronggui 39/day
> Guangzhou-Nantou 10/day
> Guangzhou-Xiaolan 58/day
> Guangzhou-Dongsheng 4/day
> Guangzhou-Zhongshan North 35/day


The distance Guangzhou East-Dongguan is also 64 km, just like Guangzhou South-Zhongshan North.
Over the 64 km distance Guangzhou South-Zhongshan North, there are 3 stations that receive 37+ trains per day: Shunde, Ronggui and Xiaolan.
Between them, there are also 5 stations that receive 4-10 trains per day: Bijiang, Beijiao, Shunde College, Nantou and Dongsheng.
These stations at least do receive those 4-10 trains per day, rather than be altogether abandoned.
What does Dongsheng Station look like?
For contrast, I could not find any trains stopping anywhere in the 64 km distance between Guangzhou East and Dongguan.
The eastern bank of Pearl River is more populous and developed than west bank. Why then is it so ill served compared to Guangzhou-Zhuhai railway?


----------



## Short

chornedsnorkack said:


> The distance Guangzhou East-Dongguan is also 64 km, just like Guangzhou South-Zhongshan North.
> Over the 64 km distance Guangzhou South-Zhongshan North, there are 3 stations that receive 37+ trains per day: Shunde, Ronggui and Xiaolan.
> Between them, there are also 5 stations that receive 4-10 trains per day: Bijiang, Beijiao, Shunde College, Nantou and Dongsheng.
> These stations at least do receive those 4-10 trains per day, rather than be altogether abandoned.
> What does Dongsheng Station look like?
> For contrast, I could not find any trains stopping anywhere in the 64 km distance between Guangzhou East and Dongguan.
> The eastern bank of Pearl River is more populous and developed than west bank. Why then is it so ill served compared to Guangzhou-Zhuhai railway?


You can not compare a century old mixed use rail line on the East Bank with a recently constructed commuter orientated line on the West Bank of the Pearl River. The train traffic patterns are completely different and can not be compared. Also both are just small pieces of a larger Pearl River Delta network. You can not compare these rail lines in isolation.

The East Bank has many more lines in total compared to the Western side, when you consider all High Speed Rail, Conventional Rail and Metro lines. Plus more are being constructed. 

Guangzhou East to Dongguan Line is today running near capacity with a mix of High Speed trains, freight services and conventional passenger trains. It is why there have been many projects built or planned to handle the commuter needs of this side of the river.

Dongguan also is not a single urban centre, rather than a collection of cities. So the new commuter services are serving new urban areas that the old Canton Railway was never able to serve. That said, there have been some rejuvenation of other parts of the old Canton Railway with former stations being reused in commuter roles, just not yet in Dongguan.

Before the Guangzhou-Zhuhai Intercity Railway was built recently, there was no passenger rail services, just a freight line to serve that side of the river.

Once the Dongguan Metro is fully operational, it will link with both the Shenzhen and Guangzhou Metro systems, meaning more services than anything on the Western side of the river. That is with including the new high speed lines and other planned services.


----------



## saiho

chornedsnorkack said:


> The distance Guangzhou East-Dongguan is also 64 km, just like Guangzhou South-Zhongshan North.
> Over the 64 km distance Guangzhou South-Zhongshan North, there are 3 stations that receive 37+ trains per day: Shunde, Ronggui and Xiaolan.
> Between them, there are also 5 stations that receive 4-10 trains per day: Bijiang, Beijiao, Shunde College, Nantou and Dongsheng.
> These stations at least do receive those 4-10 trains per day, rather than be altogether abandoned.
> What does Dongsheng Station look like?
> For contrast, I could not find any trains stopping anywhere in the 64 km distance between Guangzhou East and Dongguan.
> The eastern bank of Pearl River is more populous and developed than west bank. Why then is it so ill served compared to Guangzhou-Zhuhai railway?


The Guangshen Railway has a private railway operator. Given the limited track capacity and that they have a monopoly on rail travel in the east bank, the company most likely deduced that the most profitable service is a intercity express service as opposed to a local service. That will probably change when the Guangzhou-Dongguan-Shenzhen ICR opens, offering another competing link between the cities the Guangshen Railway serves. This may force the Guangshen Railway to adapt its service to changing market conditions.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Short said:


> You can not compare a century old mixed use rail line on the East Bank with a recently constructed commuter orientated line on the West Bank of the Pearl River. The train traffic patterns are completely different and can not be compared. Also both are just small pieces of a larger Pearl River Delta network. You can not compare these rail lines in isolation.
> 
> The East Bank has many more lines in total compared to the Western side, when you consider all High Speed Rail, Conventional Rail and Metro lines.


List the other East Bank lines, then.


----------



## tjrgx

*Testing of high speed train technology in the laboratory*






This clip shows testing of high speed train technology in the laboratory of the Institute of Mechanics at the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Beijing. The experimental platform is 274 meters long, the world’s largest platform of its kind to conduct tests and experiments on aerodynamics of high speed trains traveling at 500 kilometers per hour. Check the video to experience a train being tested at 250 km per hour along the experiment platform.


----------



## flierfy

chornedsnorkack said:


> The distance Guangzhou East-Dongguan is also 64 km, just like Guangzhou South-Zhongshan North.
> Over the 64 km distance Guangzhou South-Zhongshan North, there are 3 stations that receive 37+ trains per day: Shunde, Ronggui and Xiaolan.
> Between them, there are also 5 stations that receive 4-10 trains per day: Bijiang, Beijiao, Shunde College, Nantou and Dongsheng.
> These stations at least do receive those 4-10 trains per day, rather than be altogether abandoned.
> What does Dongsheng Station look like?
> For contrast, I could not find any trains stopping anywhere in the 64 km distance between Guangzhou East and Dongguan.
> The eastern bank of Pearl River is more populous and developed than west bank. Why then is it so ill served compared to Guangzhou-Zhuhai railway?


I don't know how you count. There are 10 intermediate stations between Guangzhou Est and Dongguan. They are all on the classic Guangshen Line though and not on the newly added fast Guangshen Line.



saiho said:


> The Guangshen Railway has a private railway operator. Given the limited track capacity and that they have a monopoly on rail travel in the east bank, the company most likely deduced that the most profitable service is a intercity express service as opposed to a local service. That will probably change when the Guangzhou-Dongguan-Shenzhen ICR opens, offering another competing link between the cities the Guangshen Railway serves. This may force the Guangshen Railway to adapt its service to changing market conditions.


I don't think that the arrival of the Guangzhou-Dongguan-Shenzhen ICR will mean much to the Guangshen Line as both serve different areas and purposes.


----------



## hkskyline

National Rail by Sijie Bu, on Flickr


----------



## chornedsnorkack

flierfy said:


> I don't know how you count. There are 10 intermediate stations between Guangzhou Est and Dongguan. They are all on the classic Guangshen Line though and not on the newly added fast Guangshen Line.


I see references to stations:

Shipai
Huangpu
Jiuyunhui
Jishan
Xiayuan
Nangang
Xintang
Shapu
Tangmei
Xiancun
Shitan
Honghai
Shilong
But I could not find any schedules to these stations, causing suspicion that they are deserted.


----------



## Short

chornedsnorkack said:


> List the other East Bank lines, then.


This is part of the web of railways built, under construction or planned to serve Dongguan for passenger service only.

Guangshen Railway
Guangzhou - Shenzhen - Hong Kong XRL
Foshan - Dongguan ICR
Dongguan - Huizhou ICR
Guangzhou - Dongguan - Shenzhen ICR

Dongguan Metro Line 1


----------



## flierfy

chornedsnorkack said:


> I see references to stations:
> 
> Shipai
> Huangpu
> Jiuyunhui
> Jishan
> Xiayuan
> Nangang
> Xintang
> Shapu
> Tangmei
> Xiancun
> Shitan
> Honghai
> Shilong
> But I could not find any schedules to these stations, causing suspicion that they are deserted.


Neither do I. But I wouldn't conclude that there were no local services. China as country isn't very open. There could very well be services whose timetables are hard to come by for non-Chinese.


----------



## hkskyline

CRH380B at Huangshan North Railway Station. by Airbus A380-800, on Flickr


----------



## stingstingsting

I'm not sure if this has been posted before but I came across an amazing CCTV documentary about China's High Speed Railways. If you need English subtitles, just switch on closed captioning.

I found the segment on manufacturing of IGBT converters particularly fascinating. It just shows how the minutest factors are critical to the success of the entire Chinese HSR system on such a colossal scale.


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## aim11086

I wonder how many passengers everyday using all these HSR?


----------



## maginn

flierfy said:


> Neither do I. But I wouldn't conclude that there were no local services. China as country isn't very open. There could very well be services whose timetables are hard to come by for non-Chinese.


There are no passenger services on those stations. They are freight stations.:bash:


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## hkskyline

aim11086 said:


> I wonder how many passengers everyday using all these HSR?


Source : http://www.chinadailyasia.com/nation/2016-08/01/content_15471224.html

>4 million a day


----------



## kunming tiger

hkskyline said:


> Source : http://www.chinadailyasia.com/nation/2016-08/01/content_15471224.html
> 
> >4 million a day


So much for the hard to come by argument.:nuts:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Short said:


> This is part of the web of railways built, under construction or planned to serve Dongguan for passenger service only.
> 
> Guangshen Railway
> Guangzhou - Shenzhen - Hong Kong XRL


Only these two exist, right?
And Guangzhou-Shenzhen HSR has only 4 stations in 116 km:

Qingsheng
Humen
Guangmingcheng
Shenzhen North
Compare against the 15 stations in the 116 km Guangzhou-Zhuhai.


Short said:


> Foshan - Dongguan ICR
> Dongguan - Huizhou ICR
> Guangzhou - Dongguan - Shenzhen ICR
> 
> Dongguan Metro Line 1


----------



## hkskyline

Enroute Kunming to Fenghuang, China on high speed train by Bagush, on Flickr


----------



## aim11086

hkskyline said:


> Source : http://www.chinadailyasia.com/nation/2016-08/01/content_15471224.html
> 
> >4 million a day


WOW!! never thought tats much.
should be so affordable that most citizen can enjoy it.

i think i wanna try someday


----------



## dodge321

stingstingsting said:


> I'm not sure if this has been posted before but I came across an amazing CCTV documentary about China's High Speed Railways. If you need English subtitles, just switch on closed captioning.
> 
> I found the segment on manufacturing of IGBT converters particularly fascinating. It just shows how the minutest factors are critical to the success of the entire Chinese HSR system on such a colossal scale.


This is a great documentary. I watched the other three in the series after seeing this one.


----------



## Short

chornedsnorkack said:


> Only these two exist, right?
> And Guangzhou-Shenzhen HSR has only 4 stations in 116 km:
> 
> Qingsheng
> Humen
> Guangmingcheng
> Shenzhen North
> Compare against the 15 stations in the 116 km Guangzhou-Zhuhai.


The Guangdong government has planned the whole Pearl River Delta as an intergrated network, not just one line either side of the river. Most of the lines and construction is concentrate on the Eastern side, while the Zhuhai railway was built first as there was no passenger railway service at all on the Western side and also to create a link to the Macau border. While the Guangshen Railway is over a century old, the Guangzhou - Zhuhai ICR is just 6 years old in comparison.

The Dongguan - Huizhou ICR is partially completed from Changping East, with 3 stations serving the Dongguan area with additional 7 once fully completed.

The Dongguan Metro Line 1 will have 26 stations serving Dongguan.

Foshan - Dongguan ICR, being built, will have two stations in Dongguan, 4 in Guangzhou. As well as connecting with the Dongguan - Huizhou ICR

The Guangzhou - Dongguan - Shenzhen ICR will have 10 stations in Dongguan.

There are also proposals for some of those freight stations on the Guangshen Railway to be renovated and opened up to commuter passenger service once again, such as Pinghu station in Shenzhen.

So it does not take too much effort to see that that there is a much greater density of stations on the Eastern bank of the Pearl River once completed. Certainly more than the Western bank's 15 stations, patience is called for until all the projects are completed.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Short said:


> While the Guangshen Railway is over a century old, the Guangzhou - Zhuhai ICR is just 6 years old in comparison.


The problem is that Guangshen railway is deserted.


Short said:


> The Dongguan Metro Line 1 will have 26 stations serving Dongguan.
> 
> Foshan - Dongguan ICR, being built, will have two stations in Dongguan, 4 in Guangzhou. As well as connecting with the Dongguan - Huizhou ICR
> 
> The Guangzhou - Dongguan - Shenzhen ICR will have 10 stations in Dongguan.


Plans.


Short said:


> There are also proposals for some of those freight stations on the Guangshen Railway to be renovated and opened up to commuter passenger service once again, such as Pinghu station in Shenzhen.


Proposals. Some.
The problem is that these stations were not kept open for commuter service, continuously and all of them, until they could be renovated/upgraded/supplemented with additional lines.


Short said:


> So it does not take too much effort to see that that there is a much greater density of stations on the Eastern bank of the Pearl River once completed. Certainly more than the Western bank's 15 stations, patience is called for until all the projects are completed.


It does not take much effort to see that there is much smaller density of stations just now. Patience could be justified if all the old stations were in use. Abandoning old stations while new stations are vapourware expected in decades does not warrant patience. People do not make decisions to build businesses, build homes or not get cars based on vague plans in ten years.


----------



## saiho

chornedsnorkack said:


> The problem is that Guangshen railway is deserted.


No it isn't, it has intercity trains running very 5 to 10 min.



chornedsnorkack said:


> Plans.


Reality. All the aforementioned lines are under construction and will be complete by 2022. 



chornedsnorkack said:


> It does not take much effort to see that there is much smaller density of stations just now.


Ya so? Its not like China is doing nothing about it now.



chornedsnorkack said:


> Patience could be justified if all the old stations were in use.


Only in the eyes of someone really eager to reopen those stations. If your goal is to expand the network with new construction while greenfield construction costs are low, you could care less. You can get back to it when building subways are getting too expensive.



chornedsnorkack said:


> Abandoning old stations while new stations are vapourware expected in decades does not warrant patience.


Who said they are "vapourware" the new lines better hit the population centers than the old line.



chornedsnorkack said:


> People do not make decisions to build businesses, build homes or not get cars based on vague plans in ten years.


I have never read something so ridiculous. If you are buying a house or starting a business and you don't account for what will happen in the next 10 years then you truly don't know what you are doing. If you are worried about more people using cars in China, don't be. Cities are very dense and car ownership rates are still very low despite years of high growth. The next five years will see about 3,000 kilometers of new urban transit lines being constructed. This is how you fight private automobile usage and provide urban mobility. Which pining for nostalgic surface railways does not do.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

saiho said:


> No it isn't, it has intercity trains running very 5 to 10 min.


But no commuter trains.


saiho said:


> Reality. All the aforementioned lines are under construction and will be complete by 2022.


By which time people will have had to make do without for how many years?


saiho said:


> Ya so? Its not like China is doing nothing about it now.


China has obviously failed to do the obvious. 


saiho said:


> Only in the eyes of someone really eager to reopen those stations. If your goal is to expand the network with new construction while greenfield construction costs are low, you could care less. You can get back to it when building subways are getting too expensive.


Wrong order of costs.
The cost of building a surface railway through a green field is relatively cheap. The cost of cutting a surface railway through a built up area is much more expensive.
The cost of digging a subway is expensive even under a green field. Digging a subway under a built up area is even more costly than digging under a green field, but not so much relative difference, because digging the subway is so expensive to begin with.


saiho said:


> Who said they are "vapourware" the new lines better hit the population centers than the old line.


But they do not today exist.
And there are *some* people on old line. They should be served, but are not.


saiho said:


> I have never read something so ridiculous. If you are buying a house or starting a business and you don't account for what will happen in the next 10 years then you truly don't know what you are doing.


 What happened to people who built houses in, oh, 2007, based on the Shanghai Transrapid extension?
The construction plans 10 years ahead are heavily subject to changes of plans. Physically present lines are somewhat more reliable.


saiho said:


> The next five years will see about 3,000 kilometers of new urban transit lines being constructed. This is how you fight private automobile usage and provide urban mobility. Which pining for nostalgic surface railways does not do.


Surface railways are not just "nostalgic".
They are, for one, quick, cheap and cost effective for many purposes. And for another, in many places already in place.
Look right across border to Hong Kong.
Hong Kong, in 1979, had 34 km of single track, unelectrified surface railway with 7 stations.
What did Hong Kong do?
Hong Kong built 134 km of completely new subways, serving concentrations of people not served by existing rail.

But Hong Kong did not abandon surface railway or its stations.
Rather, Hong Kong electrified and double tracked those 34 km. And added 6 new stations to the existing 7. And also built a new, 7 km long Lok Ma Chau line which is a branch of Kowloon-Canton railway.
And the East Rail continues to also carry long distance trains.
By all means, construct all new urban transit line. But this should not be exclusive of upgrading the existing lines and adding infill stations - let alone failure of public service to any existing station.


----------



## saiho

:jax: said:


> I made a Google map of Pearl River infrastructure, with high-speed rail, intercity rail (existing and planned) and the two Pearl River crossings (HK-Macau/Zhuhai and Shenzhen-Zhongshan).
> 
> The HSR and IC lines are partially based on incomplete information (stations marked with ? or ??).


You can see the path of the Foshan Dongguang and Guangzhou Dongguang Shenzhen ICs under construction in satellite view. That should help. Also the Dongguang Huizhou IC does not go to Guangzhou via the Gunagshen railway. It tunnels under Dongguang and will connect with the Foshan Dongguang IC. Also you are missing the Qingyuan Guangzhou IC.


----------



## ccdk

not sure if this was posted here before - *life of a bullet train driver* (only in Chinese)


----------



## ccdk

Photos taken along the Hukun line (Shanghai - Kunming), near Anshun, Guizhou


























http://country.cnr.cn/xtxq/20170317/t20170317_523663645.shtml


----------



## dodge321

Has it been said already that a lot of lines are going to raise speed to 250km from the current 200km in April?


----------



## Pansori

dodge321 said:


> Has it been said already that a lot of lines are going to raise speed to 250km from the current 200km in April?


Is this really going to happen? Source? If so it would be a fantastic news.


----------



## ccdk

haven't noticed about that, but it is confirmed that the top speed is not going to be raised to 350km/h in the near future. Multiple Chinese news sources have reported, citing a press conference speech by Wang Mengshu from the Chinese Academy of Engineering during the National Congress.


----------



## dodge321

Pansori said:


> Is this really going to happen? Source? If so it would be a fantastic news.


It's been widely reported in Chinese media. According to Caixin, citing a source from the operating company of the Shanghai-Shenzhen high speed railway line, prices of second and first class tickets on the Ningbo-Shenzhen segment will increase by up to 30% and 70% from April 21, and speed will increase to 250km. Now this information should confirmed with all the buzz going on. Plus, you can only book tickets for April 21 and beyond from March 21 right now.

The below information is from Railcn.net in end-Feb and I'm not sure whether it's proposal or confirmed.

There will be several speed upgrades this year. The first batch happens in April and applies to Ningbo-Shenzhen, Nanjing-Anqing, Nanjing-Wuhan (raise to 250km) and Xi'an-Baoji (raise to 300km).

The second batch happens in July and applies to Guangzhou-Nanning, Chengdu-Mianyang-Leshan, Chongqing-Wanzhou, Changchun-Hunchun, Tianjin-Bazhou, Nanning-Kunming and a few others.


----------



## Pansori

That's very good news then. Should cut travel times considerably.


----------



## Himara

:cheers:


----------



## tjrgx

*Picturesque aerial view of China's high-speed train passes through the golden rapeseed fields*


----------



## ccdk




----------



## bearb

ccdk said:


> *Tunnel boring starts next month for the Wangjing Tunnel on the Beijing - Shenyang HSR line*
> http://news.ifeng.com/a/20170210/50674492_0.shtml
> http://travel.cnr.cn/list/20170210/t20170210_523582889.shtml
> 
> An 8-km tunnel will be built on the Beijing - Shenyang HSR line to connect with Beijing's Main railway station. The Wangjing HSR tunnel, will start near the Xinghuo railway station on the outskirt of Beijing, connecting the main station in the city center. This will be the first underground HSR tunnel passing through a city center in China.


Apparently The HSR from Shenzhen North - West Kowloon already has a significantly large sector underneath the city centre of Shenzhen. and from both of the links you provided, not a single word mentioned about "the first underground HSR tunnel passing through a city center in China" and you are misleading the thread.


----------



## bearb

Short said:


> The present tense was for the present planning and construction work, it was not meant to represent a complete whole line. The western segment is under construction between Maoming and Jiangmen (due for completion in 2018) and the geotechnical work has begun for the tunnel beneath the Pearl River and associated preliminary works relating to Airport North station's construction. Full scale construction of the tunnel and trackage, from Shenzhen to Jiangmen, is expected to start in 2018.


However, the termini for this railway in Shenzhen have been re-configured. 

There is no more HSR station in Shenzhen Airport North, and Shenzhen North will no longer be the terminal for Shenzhen-Maoming Railway.

Instead, the two major termini for this line will be Shenzhen Airport East and Shenzhen Xili, with a link from Shenzhen Xili to Shenzhen North for trains go pass through towards Xiamen and Ganzhou.


----------



## ccdk

bearb said:


> Apparently The HSR from Shenzhen North - West Kowloon already has a significantly large sector underneath the city centre of Shenzhen. and from both of the links you provided, not a single word mentioned about "the first underground HSR tunnel passing through a city center in China" and you are misleading the thread.


From the CNR news: 望京隧道是*国内首条高铁城市地下盾构隧道*，隧道全长为8公里。位于北京五、六环之间，大致沿京承高速公路走向。

I am well aware of the underground station/tunnel on the SZ - Kowloon section and had my own doubts as well, but just trying to be neutral in the translation. maybe I mis-interpreted?


----------



## bearb

ccdk said:


> From the CNR news: 望京隧道是*国内首条高铁城市地下盾构隧道*，隧道全长为8公里。位于北京五、六环之间，大致沿京承高速公路走向。
> 
> I am well aware of the underground station/tunnel on the SZ - Kowloon section and had my own doubts as well, but just trying to be neutral in the translation. maybe I mis-interpreted?


国内首条高铁城市地下盾构隧道

where is the word for 'city centre'?


----------



## xinxingren

*Construction for the new Fuzhou-Xiamen PDL begins*



> Published：2017-02-13
> The new Fuzhou-Xiamen passenger dedicated line is located in the most developed coastal economic belt in Fujian Province. It begins from Fuzhou in the north, passes Putian and Quanzhou, and goes all the way to Xiamen and Zhangzhou in the south. The line between Fuzhou Station and Zhangzhou Station is 290 km long, with a design speed of 350 km/h. Located in the core area of fast-developing Haixi Economic Zone, Fuzhou-Xiamen Corridor is looking at continually growing demands for both passenger and freight transport, which cannot be satisfied by the transport capacity of the existing Fuzhou-Xiamen Railway. After the completion of the new Fuzhou-Xiamen passenger dedicated line, it will greatly ease the conflict between supply and rapidly-growing demand of passenger and freight transport, and give play to comprehensive benefits of the railway network.


China Railway Corpn News-Center 

So, is this an admission that the 200-250km/hr line was a mistake? or an admission that linking some freight spur lines onto it was a mistake?


----------



## Lucasfsolari

Nice


----------



## foxmulder

xinxingren said:


> China Railway Corpn News-Center
> 
> So, is this an admission that the 200-250km/hr line was a mistake? or an admission that linking some freight spur lines onto it was a mistake?


I would say the demand is more than they expected. If the corridor can support an older line + 250km/h + 350km/h line that shows the demand. Also Eastern parts of the country have parallel lines like this already due to "intercity" high speed lines next to 8+8 long haul trunk network. 

So, yeah maybe not estimating the demand was a mistake. But then increasing the whole plan from 4+4 to 8+8 was a admitting 4+4 was a mistake :lol:


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## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> I would say the demand is more than they expected. If the corridor can support an older line + 250km/h + 350km/h line that shows the demand.


Wasn't that a corridor which _didn't_ have an older line?


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## lookback718

chornedsnorkack said:


> Wasn't that a corridor which _didn't_ have an older line?


Yes I believe so, and think that was part of the reason they went mixed use line rather than PDL.

Maybe they will turn the 'old' 250km line into mostly or all freight once a 350kmph PDL is built.


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## Short

xinxingren said:


> China Railway Corpn News-Center
> 
> So, is this an admission that the 200-250km/hr line was a mistake? or an admission that linking some freight spur lines onto it was a mistake?


No, it was always a long term plan to build the second line. There was no coastal line at all, unlike most other regions of China where a conventional railway is in place. For security reasons, the railways only went from the coast to inland regions, which made for many inefficient logistic flows.

So the first line was purposely intended to serve double duty, so freight could utilise the coastal route and spur economic development across the region. The new line will be then be built as a Passenger Dedicated Line, while the old line can remain for local passenger and freight traffic.


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## xinxingren

Short said:


> ...
> So the first line was purposely intended to serve double duty, so freight could utilise the coastal route and spur economic development across the region. The new line will be then be built as a Passenger Dedicated Line, while the old line can remain for local passenger and freight traffic.


Ah, that makes sense. That and the rapid increase in demand, forcing the "8+8" plan, of which at least some of the 8 verticals are intended to "open up the coast" :shifty:


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## komi592

*review*

missing some pics


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## komi592

*review*

missing some pics


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## xinxingren

*CCTV10 3 part doco on CHR*

No pics here either sorry, I've disable embedding to avoid arguments with YT who always seem to find some snippet of somebody else's music...

I've put some English subtitles on those in the subject line, 
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsHI_OiKyXl89GLlI4eAICW0o6-X3zGA6


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## xinxingren

Short said:


> As for high speed railways under construction, there is an undocumented project that I have not seen published or reported on anywhere. It is an extension of the Emei Shan branchline that runs south into the mountains. I know it exists simply because I have been to the construction site just south of Ebian, Sichuan where they were blasting a tunnel under a friend's village during August 2016. It is a CRH line but I have no idea about the extent of the project. My friend's family could not tell me anything except for what was happening locally.


Google Earth is slowly revealing in new updates: significant HSR work north and south of Yanbian on the Yalong R. just north of Panzhihua. Also to the east of Miyi town. But I can't see anything yet round Xichang, and I'd expect that to be a major target. I see what looks like stations at Yuexi and Lugu.

There is a big chunk of line works visible south of Panzhihua, northwest of Yuanmou, so maybe it's going to connect at Guangtong.


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## kunming tiger

Chengdu-Kunming HSR?


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## xinxingren

kunming tiger said:


> Chengdu-Kunming HSR?


Well, yes, but the supposed route of that line has been all over the place, so it's nice to see some spades in the ground. :banana:


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## Gusiluz

Can this be?


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## xinxingren

Gusiluz said:


> Can this be?


Yes, that segment of 06 between Yibin-Kunming I have seen on other maps. I've also seen plans that make it share the same route as 08 from Chengdu-Leshan-Yibin. But now it seems the mines at Panzhihua are forcing the decision just like 60 years ago. Back then the slow train was intended to go directly on that 06 line via Yibin. Until the iron/chrome/titanium were discovered at Panzhihua. And now we have a cosmodrome at Xichang pulling the line westwards. Important enough to have a daily train K117/118 Beijing-Panzhihua. So that map you show is out of date. We can see the HSR line going via Panzhihua. 

For extra points tell us the route and timetable to replace the current Kunming-Urumqi slow train.


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## chornedsnorkack

xinxingren said:


> For extra points tell us the route and timetable to replace the current Kunming-Urumqi slow train.


What is the due date to open Lanzhou-Baoji?


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## FM 2258

chornedsnorkack said:


> What is the due date to open Lanzhou-Baoji?


That's a good question. What is this portion taking so long? Interesting how the Lanzhou-Urumqi seemed to be built much faster than this much shorter line.


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## Gusiluz

^^ What I have pointed out: Baoji–Lanzhou: 250 km/h year 2017 401 km PDL 10




xinxingren said:


> ...
> So that map you show is out of date.
> ...


The map is from July 20, 2016, when the Chinese government presented its new plans (8 + 8 PDL) for 2030 modified from Wikipedia.


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## chornedsnorkack

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ What I have pointed out: Baoji–Lanzhou: 250 km/h year 2017 401 km PDL 10


It is 2017.
Which month?


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## xinxingren

FM 2258 said:


> That's a good question. What is this portion taking so long? Interesting how the Lanzhou-Urumqi seemed to be built much faster than this much shorter line.


http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-04/06/c_136187910.htm says rail laying is complete, but, the photos they show could rail laying anywhere. Also in one of those doco clips I linked above the engineers were moaning about the loess country as needing major subground stabilization where the line ran on earth embankments, and too many short tunnels and bridges.

Also news to me http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-03/31/c_136174237.htm is reporting that Xi'an-Chengdu is 250km/hr Intercity. I thought that was s'posed to be one of the big 4x4 lines, not just an infill on the 8x8. hno:


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## Gusiluz

chornedsnorkack said:


> It is 2017.
> Which month?


Long ago announced its completion in 2017 without further precision.


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## lookback718

xinxingren said:


> tell us the route


I found this article "Chengdu-Kunming Double Line Railway Expected to Open in 2020"

Which says

_The whole section is divided into Chengdu-Emei section, Emei-Miyi section, Miyi-Panzhihua section, Yongren-Guangtong section, and Guangtong-Kunming section (completed)._

http://www.sc.gov.cn/10462/10758/10760/10765/2016/5/5/10379147.shtml



Chengdu-Kunming Double Line Railway Expected to Open in 2020
　　If you like traveling, going by train from Chengdu to Kunming might be a good choice for you. From Sichuan Basin to Hengduan Mountains, passing through Yunnan-Guizhou Plateau, the scenery is showing slowly like a beautiful picture scroll as the train roaring on.

　　Now, it takes about 18 hours by train from Chengdu to Kunming. While 4 years later, this journey will be shorted to 7 hours.

　　On April 28th, reporters learned from relevant railway departments that Chengdu-Kunming railway expansion project (Chengdu-Kunming Double Line Railway) construction has been achieved new progress. On April 26th, the longest section with the most difficulties in construction, namely Emei-Miyi Section expansion project, has been officially initiated to construct.

　　Chengdu-Kunming Double Line Railway, which is expected to be completed and opened in 2020, will greatly shorted the distance between Sichuan and Yunnan. By 2020, it will only take 3 hours by train from Chengdu to Panzhihua, reduced by 10 hours. While it will only take about 7 hours from Chengdu to Kunming by train. Traveling experience will be more comfortable.

Most difficult: Bridges and channels accounting for 70% by passing through faults and valleys 
　　
　　Chengdu-Kunming railway expansion project aims to construct new railways and expand current railways on the basis of current Chengdu-Kunming Railway. It links Chengdu and Kunming together with the total length of about 900 km. There is 632 km in Sichuan.

　　The whole section is divided into Chengdu-Emei section, Emei-Miyi section, Miyi-Panzhihua section, Yongren-Guangtong section, and Guangtong-Kunming section (completed). After opening, it will enhance the passenger capacity of Chengdu-Kunming Railway as an important corridor and channel linking Sichuan and Southwest China, linking Chengdu Plain Economic Zone, Panxi Economic Zone, Daliangshan Yi Minority Zone and Xiaoliang Yi Minority Zone.

　　Emei-Miyi section, 386 km in total, is the most difficult and the longest section in constructing Chengdu-Kunming Double Line Railway. “We have to pass through several geographical faults. The section pass through mountainside, valleys with terrible geographical and meteorological conditions. Therefore, we are faced with severe construction difficulties.” Relevant responsible officials from No. 2 Engineering Company of China Railway No.8 Engineering Group Co., Ltd introduced, “There will be about 140 bridges and 40 channels to be constructed in Emei-Miyi section with the percentage of channel and bridges of 73%. That is to say, over 70% of Emei-Miyi section is either bridge or channel.”

　　Fastest speed: 3 hours from Chengdu to Panzhihua by train

　　Mr. Li Gang, aged 27 and born in Panzhihua, is now working in Chengdu. His mother is living in Xichang. When he is free, he often communicate from Chengdu, Panzhihua, and Xichang. On holidays or weekends, He finds that it is always difficult to book a train ticket between Chengdu, Xichang, and Panzhihua. The journey lasts for over 10 hours. “It is too exhausting.”

　　By 2020, it is expected to changed this situation. By 2020, when Chengdu-Kunming Double Line Railway is opened, traveler communicating from Chengdu, Panzhihua and Xichang like Li Gang will find it more convenient. It will take 2.5 hours from Chengdu to Xichang, passing through Meishan, Jiajiang, Emei, and Yuexi. 1 hour later, it will arrive in Panzhihua. 3.5 hours later, the train will go into Yunnan and arrive in Kunming, the spring city. 18-hour journey from Chengdu to Kunming will be shorted to 7 hours.

　　Most beautiful scenery: the attractive scenery on the whole journey

　　”Starting from Chengdu, I take the train to the south. The traveling scenery is like a beautiful picture scroll displaying in my eyes.” Such sentences often appear in the dairies of travelers.

　　Actually, Chengdu-Kunming Railway, as a major channel in Southwest China, enjoys significant strategic meaning and economic meaning. But for ordinary travelers, when the train passes through various scenes, it is really an expected visual feast.

　　When Chengdu-Kunming Double Line Railway is completed, it will be more convenient for Chengdu citizens who are fond of traveling to play in the south direction. Whenever they want to enjoy the sunshine in Panzhihua and Xichang, they could start in the morning and arrive at noon. If they want to play in Kunming, taste the stone forests, feed birds by the side of Dianchi, it will only take 3.5 hours.

　　In fact, there are more beautiful scenes. From Chengdu to Emei, the train goes on Chengdu Plain and travelers could enjoy the booming rape flowers in spring and feel relaxed. When the train arrives in Emei, if it is sunny, travelers could overlook the top of Mount Emei. Later, the train will pass through the barrier of Sichuan Basin, travelers could see Dadu River and feel the shaking streams. When the train goes on and arrives in Panxi zone where it is still sunny and warm even in winter, travelers could enjoy a comfortable sunshine bath. When the train passes through Yunnan-Kunming Plateau and arrives in Yunnan, travelers could start to enjoy the spring city.

　　Driving economic development: combining passenger and cargo together and driving economic development along the train 

　　Chengdu-Kunming Double Line Railway will enjoy great significance in driving special resource development, industrial development, assisting the precise poverty alleviation in Daliang Mountain and Xiaoliang Mountain region, and promoting national unity.


　　It is introduced that after the completion of Chengdu-Kunming Double Line Railway, it will focus on passenger transportation and cover freight as much as possible. While the current Chengdu-Kunming Railway will mainly focus on freight and short trip. Chengdu-Kunming Double Line Railway will link Chengdu, Emei, Xichuang, Panzhihua, and Kunming more closely and bring the minerals and ethnic fruits and specialties in Panxi region into the whole county and even the world. The new and previous railways will jointly drive the economic development and promote the regional coordinated economic development in Panxi region.


----------



## foxmulder

xinxingren said:


> http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-04/06/c_136187910.htm says rail laying is complete, but, the photos they show could rail laying anywhere. Also in one of those doco clips I linked above the engineers were moaning about the loess country as needing major subground stabilization where the line ran on earth embankments, and too many short tunnels and bridges.
> 
> Also news to me http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-03/31/c_136174237.htm is reporting that Xi'an-Chengdu is 250km/hr Intercity. I thought that was s'posed to be one of the big 4x4 lines, not just an infill on the 8x8. hno:


no, no, Xi'an-Chengdu was never part of the original 4+4 plans.


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## Norge78

It looks like The Shanghai-Wuhan line has been upgraded to 350 km/h (?)... I'm not sure..

Anyway the wikipedia map is not updated https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_high-speed_railway_lines_in_China


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## Pansori

Norge78 said:


> It looks like The Shanghai-Wuhan line has been upgraded to 350 km/h (?)... I'm not sure..
> 
> Anyway the wikipedia map is not updated https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_high-speed_railway_lines_in_China


Source?


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## xinxingren

ccdk said:


> *Welding of HSR tracks*
> http://news.ifeng.com/a/20170428/51021864_0.shtml


The rails, welds and QC must be somewhat higher grade than for slow tracks. I saw 500 metre lengths of rail for the Xining-Golmud 160km/hr upgrade. A trainload of them stacked up on standard flat-wagons going down Guanjiao Pass. In 31km of track there are 9 curves of over 180 degrees at 300 metres radius. Those rails just went round like they were cooked noodles...


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## tjrgx

*Guanjiao pass*



xinxingren said:


> The rails, welds and QC must be somewhat higher grade than for slow tracks. I saw 500 metre lengths of rail for the Xining-Golmud 160km/hr upgrade. A trainload of them stacked up on standard flat-wagons going down Guanjiao Pass. In 31km of track there are 9 curves of over 180 degrees at 300 metres radius. Those rails just went round like they were cooked noodles...


Yep, now I think that spiral loop is gone as there is a new Guanjiao tunnel （32km）


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## chornedsnorkack

xinxingren said:


> All the stories I've been reading say the big city interchanges will be HSR,Intercity and Metro, and the migrant workers will all ride the HSR, making their own connections somewhere out in the countryside to/from slow trains, minibuses etc.


Why would they?
Many would. But 2 problems:

Slow trains are still cheaper and more comfortable than HSR. With enough time and convenient schedule, many migrant workers would still choose slow train.
Slow train/HSR interchanges are remarkably rare in Chinese HSR network. Since connecting to HSR is difficult, many passengers would ride slow train all the way.


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## Short

While this article about the vehicles themselves is interesting, I am curious about the HSR Beijing-Shenyang line being built to a higher standard to allow this faster running.



> *Trains capable of 400 km/h to run in 2020
> Shenzhen Daily
> 4th May 2017*
> 
> CHINA is working on next-generation bullet trains with a maximum operational speed of 400 kilometers per hour that will be ready by 2020 for markets linked to the Belt and Road Initiative’s vision, the country’s top railway vehicle maker said.
> 
> “We will apply new materials in the research and production of the future high-speed trains, such as carbon fiber and aluminum alloy, which will help reduce weight and enhance energy efficiency,” said Qiao Feng, a senior engineer at the CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicles Co., a subsidiary of China Railway Rolling Stock Corp.
> 
> The new trains will be available in Belt and Road Initiative markets, and will be able to reduce per passenger energy consumption by 10 percent compared with high-speed trains that can run 350 km/h. The CRRC will be the manufacturer and exporter, according to Qiao.
> 
> Once available, by around 2020, the new trains are expected to promote regional connectivity and create new business for China and overseas economies through the Belt and Road Initiative, Qiao added.
> 
> Feng Hao, a rail transportation researcher at the National Development and Reform Commission, said that the 400 km/h high-speed train project would help many heavily populated countries change their commuter transportation from a long dependence on automobiles.
> 
> “Because many markets along the Belt and Road Initiative, especially in Central Asia, Southeast Asia, the Middle East and Eastern Europe countries, are planning to build high-speed rail lines or to upgrade their existing systems, they are eager to gain technological support from China to assist in daily operations, maintenance and staff training.”
> 
> China will test the new bullet train alongside a portion of the Beijing-Shenyang high-speed railway line, Qiao said. The test railway line is to be completed by 2019.
> 
> Liu Youmei, an academician at the Chinese Academy of Engineering, said it is still not cost-effective to run a high-speed train at 400 km/h domestically because elements such as bearings, electric contacts and track must be replaced more often.
> 
> But, he said, with new railway lines and lower costs for parts and service, it will not be a problem.
> 
> In the past decade, China has built the world’s largest high-speed rail network and become a leader in offering high-speed train products and services. The country has passenger train services running at operational speeds of 200 to 250 km/h and currently has the technology to produce trains with a top speed of 350 km/h, according to the National Railway Administration.
> 
> Qiao said that once the project is completed and with improvements in technologies and equipment, China can also adopt the new technology at home. (China Daily)


Sadly the article immediately below this one was about a blast in a railway tunnel killing 12 workers in Guizhou. The Qishanyan Railway was tunnelling near Liulong township in Dafang county, which necessitated passing through a coal seam. It is suspected that gases from the coal seam ignited, causing the blast and delaying any rescue until 14 hours later.


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## luacstjh98

I think it fair to say the Chinese ought to start running everything at 350kph before even thinking about 400kph.


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## t2contra

I think the 400kph trains will be better bespoke for that speed than the 350kph were at this speed. 



> “We will apply new materials in the research and production of the future high-speed trains, such as carbon fiber and aluminum alloy, which will help reduce weight and enhance energy efficiency,” said Qiao Feng, a senior engineer at the CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicles Co., a subsidiary of China Railway Rolling Stock Corp.


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## skyridgeline

luacstjh98 said:


> I think it fair to say the Chinese ought to start running everything at 350kph before even thinking about 400kph.


It was suggested that the reason for the speed reduction was not technical (software/human issue). 

Running at 400km/h + will be a technical challenge.

"But, he said, with *new railway lines* and lower costs for parts and service, it will not be a problem."


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## dekechemist

skyridgeline said:


> It was suggested that the reason for the speed reduction was not technical (software/human issue).
> 
> Running at 400km/h + will be a technical challenge.
> 
> "But, he said, with *new railway lines* and lower costs for parts and service, it will not be a problem."


I think it somewhat got to do with technical which manifest into cost increase to run the train at 400kph +. First is the amount of wears incur on the equipment and infrastructure which would be in much faster rate. Then, at certain speed the power needed to overcome the friction begin to increase exponentially in altogether contribute the unjustifiable increment of operating cost.


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## hkskyline

China Railway CRH2A-2001, Xinzhuang by Howard Pulling, on Flickr


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## xinxingren

skyridgeline said:


> Running at 400km/h + will be a technical challenge.
> 
> "But, he said, with *new railway lines* and lower costs for parts and service, it will not be a problem."


I assumed the 420km/hr tests run in July 2016 Zhengzhou-Xuzhou must have been for some serious purpose, not just to say "we did it". The only report I have to hand says they were regular scheduled operational trains, doesn't say, but maybe implies, carrying farepaying pax?


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## FM 2258

^^

I would love to see at least a video of this run.


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## abcpdo

chornedsnorkack said:


> Why would they?
> 
> Many would. But 2 problems:
> 
> 
> Slow trains are still cheaper and more comfortable than HSR. With enough time and convenient schedule, many migrant workers would still choose slow train.
> 
> Slow train/HSR interchanges are remarkably rare in Chinese HSR network. Since connecting to HSR is difficult, many passengers would ride slow train all the way.




Not quite sure how slow trains are more comfortable.


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## skyridgeline

dekechemist said:


> I think it somewhat got to do with technical which manifest into cost increase to run the train at 400kph +. First is the amount of wears incur on the equipment and infrastructure which would be in much faster rate. Then, at certain speed the power needed to overcome the friction begin to increase exponentially in altogether contribute the unjustifiable increment of operating cost.


The initial slow down (after the Wenzhou incident) applies to all the trains not just the fastest ones.



xinxingren said:


> I assumed the 420km/hr tests run in July 2016 Zhengzhou-Xuzhou must have been for some serious purpose, not just to say "we did it". The only report I have to hand says they were regular scheduled operational trains, doesn't say, but maybe implies, carrying farepaying pax?



I think the 380km/h max operational trains are capable of 400 km/h+ but outside the "safety factor" and/or not feasible. The article suggests there are a few upgrades before the 400km/h+ services are commercially viable.


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## Gusiluz

skyridgeline said:


> The initial slow down (after the Wenzhou incident) applies to all the trains not just the fastest ones.
> ...


"Everyone" believes that, but it does not mean it's true. I will with my bad English. Sorry

Reducing the maximum speed in China and (null) regarding the accident of Wenzhou:

Following the resignation (February 2011) for corruption of former Minister of Railways, his successor announced in April a change in policy on HS: the fastest routes will be cut from 350 kph (220 mph) to 300 kph (190 mph) as of July 1, 2011, and the rest of PDL from 250 to 200. The reasons given were: reducing energy consumption, lowering prices to fill the trains and for safety !!. Shortly after, an "adjunct" nuance the words of his boss: the speed reduction would be only on lines with low occupancy and "of course" had nothing to do with security.

Meanwhile, on June 30, the Beijing-Shanghai line was inaugurated. It is the only projected to 380 km/h, but after many problems during testing was commissioned in 300, announcing the 350 "before year end" and 380 "some time later". In July presented problems of signaling and problems with the new CRH380A trains.
July 1 became effective speed reduction on lines with low occupancy.
23 of the same month the accident Wenzhou. In this accident he had nothing to do speed, so they have told: there was a storm, the first train (CRH1B # 46) stopped by a failure in a substation, signals broke down, it was getting dark ... and the second train ( the CRH2E No. 139, both entitled to 250 km/h) hit the first train.

In that vein, the SE Coastal PDL, full speed before July 1 was 250, and at that time was reduced, so the accident occurred in a limited line to 200 km/h. I do not know how fast the scope occurred, although it would not be too high: they derailed the last 2 and the first 4 cars; the problem is that it was on a viaduct and 3 of them fell into the void.

After the accident the maximum speed of 350 km/h was not reduced immediately, but in stages: during August fell at least between Beijing and Tianjin (the 16), Shanghai-Hangzhou and Wuhan-Guangzhou (the 28). Also in August, but nothing seems to indicate a relationship, all trains were CRH380A to factory to make changes, since continued to fail.

Sources (in English, although the entrance is in Spanish: Alta velocidad ferroviaria en China)


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## chornedsnorkack

abcpdo said:


> Not quite sure how slow trains are more comfortable.


Because sleeper cabins are available at much lower price than the few HSR sleepers, and on many routes where HSR sleeper would not make sense for time reasons anyway.


----------



## skyridgeline

Gusiluz said:


> "Everyone" believes that, but it does not mean it's true. I will with my bad English. Sorry
> 
> Reducing the maximum speed in China and (null) regarding the accident of Wenzhou:
> 
> Following the resignation (February 2011) for corruption ...
> 
> Sources (in English, although the entrance is in Spanish: Alta velocidad ferroviaria en China)


"Corruption" and/or speed did not killed those people. It was human decisions/errors that killed them. They were incompetent in managing the high-speed rail _*system*_.


----------



## foxmulder

chornedsnorkack said:


> Because sleeper cabins are available at much lower price than the few HSR sleepers, and on many routes where HSR sleeper would not make sense for time reasons anyway.


I think you meant "affordable". High speed trains are more comfortable because they are more silent and have less vibration in spite of being faster.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

foxmulder said:


> I think you meant "affordable". High speed trains are more comfortable because they are more silent and have less vibration in spite of being faster.


But sitting up in a high speed train is less comfortable than lying down in a slow speed one.
For example, for Changsha-Guangzhou, the first train, G6011, departs Changsha only at 7:00, and arrives at Guangzhou North 9:26, Guangzhou South 9:51. Then add the time to navigate Guangzhou to your actual destination/workplace... 

For comparison, there are 10 slow trains arriving at Guangzhou between 4:02 and 7:51, having departed Changsha between 19:51 and 23:04. And further 6 slow trains arrive in Guangzhou or Guangzhou East between 8:16 and 9:22, having departed Changsha between 23:44 and 1:46.

You cannot get to work in a morning by HSR from any long distance because most HSR lines only open at 7:00. And even if they did open earlier, you´d have to get up early and arrive tired.


----------



## :jax:

I think that's about a sleeper giving you a full night's sleep is always more comfortable than one where you enter late at night or arrive before dawn. It's no fun staggering out of the train groggy and cold five in the morning and nothing is open, not even transport. 

There is one solution, remember it was used in Norway. The train from Oslo left something like 23:00 and arrived the city of Bergen something like 7:00 in the morning, which was pretty good by sleeper standards. In theory you could get close to eight hours sleep, though in practice it would be more like six hours. And at seven in the morning the city is marginally awake, the transport network is at full, some cafes and stores are open. It's still less than ideal though. 

So they let you enter the train at 21:00 and leave at 8:00. That gave you up to 11 hours. Plenty time to unpack and pack, and to unwind, maybe a stay at the restaurant car (ensuring more income), read, talk and relax, and still get a full night sleep. You could also order a breakfast at the station restaurant next morning.

For whatever reason they stopped, while still providing sleeper service. The disadvantage would be that the train would stand still for three hours, providing no income (except for the restaurant car). That was not such a big issue, as the sleeper cars had no use at daytime, and as there is much less train traffic at night there were no shortage of platforms either. 

I'm not sure how many routes that would be applicable in China though. Beijing-Guangzhou is already about 10 hours, already long enough, while Beijing-Shanghai or Beijing-Harbin would be too short. That would primarily be interesting for end-to-end journeys of 6-8 hours (or a bit shorter, if there are train sets to spare).

Letting people sleep for up to an hour after arrival could be beneficial for many though, including those who got on after the initial station.


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## chornedsnorkack

For long distance trains arriving at Tangxi, Guangzhou or Guangzhou East - what could be a good target time period to arrive in morning, so that people can navigate Guangzhou transit and report to their actual workplace around Pearl River Delta?


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## Pansori

lawdefender said:


> *Infographic: Bullet trains set new standards*
> 
> 
> By Ma Chi | chinadaily.com.cn | 2017-06-26 18:11 [​IMG]
> 
> http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2017-06/26/content_29892314.htm
> 
> http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/images/attachement/jpg/site1/20170627/f8bc126d97c41abbf3f501.jpg
> 
> 
> http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/images/attachement/jpg/site1/20170627/f8bc126d97c41abbf3f501.jpg


I think they got the train photos wrong. Like VERY wrong


----------



## lawdefender

*Chinese high speed rail way map 2017*

http://crh.gaotie.cn/CRHMAP.html


https://www.travelchinaguide.com/images/map/train/high-speed-railway.jpg


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## SSMEX

Pansori said:


> I think they got the train photos wrong. Like VERY wrong


I was getting so confused looking at the photos. :nuts:


----------



## prangar

""The Fuxing class trains are designed to travel at 350 kilometers per hour on average with a maximum speed of 400 km/h," designers at the China Academy of Railway Sciences, or CARS, revealed in a statement."

Does this mean that the current 300 km/h top speed limit will be relaxed for the new CRH400 trains?


----------



## tjrgx

*Pics of Beijing-Shenyang HSR construction*

Taken on July, 15th, 2017

http://vip.people.com.cn/do/userbuy.jsp?aId=1075685


----------



## SSMEX

prangar said:


> ""The Fuxing class trains are designed to travel at 350 kilometers per hour on average with a maximum speed of 400 km/h," designers at the China Academy of Railway Sciences, or CARS, revealed in a statement."
> 
> Does this mean that the current 300 km/h top speed limit will be relaxed for the new CRH400 trains?


I very much doubt revenue service will exceed 300 km/h anytime soon. First, the previous generation designed for 380 km/h and never saw anything above 300 km/h in service. Second, there is no commercial service in the world that significantly exceeds 300 km/h, and that includes many services that are in a stronger financial position on the operations side (Chinese HSR tickets are by far the cheapest in the world and receive significant subsidies).

300 km/h is probably the fastest the current generation of HSR technology will get us in revenue service, and it's remained at that level for decades now. It'll probably take maglevs to make any economic sense to go faster.


----------



## t2contra

SSMEX said:


> I very much doubt revenue service will exceed 300 km/h anytime soon. First, the previous generation designed for 380 km/h and never saw anything above 300 km/h in service. Second, there is no commercial service in the world that significantly exceeds 300 km/h, and that includes many services that are in a stronger financial position on the operations side (Chinese HSR tickets are by far the cheapest in the world and receive significant subsidies).
> 
> 300 km/h is probably the fastest the current generation of HSR technology will get us in revenue service, and it's remained at that level for decades now. It'll probably take maglevs to make any economic sense to go faster.


Your words are speculative vis-a-vis theirs, which was an official announcement. If you had read into theirs, they made claims of improvement in technology that make 350kmh realistic rather than hype.


----------



## foxmulder

SSMEX said:


> I very much doubt revenue service will exceed 300 km/h anytime soon. First, the previous generation designed for 380 km/h and never saw anything above 300 km/h in service. Second, there is no commercial service in the world that significantly exceeds 300 km/h, and that includes many services that are in a stronger financial position on the operations side (Chinese HSR tickets are by far the cheapest in the world and receive significant subsidies).
> 
> 300 km/h is probably the fastest the current generation of HSR technology will get us in revenue service, and it's remained at that level for decades now. It'll probably take maglevs to make any economic sense to go faster.


First, it is already 310km/h. I know it may be just 10km/h but still 300km/h is not the maximum. Second, and more significant, Chinese high speed trains run at *350km/h literally for years* until the infamous Wenzhou train accident after which speeds were lowered not because of economics but more due to politics/management. 

I bet with the new trains, after a certain operational period, we will see 350km/h. I give it ~one years.


----------



## saiho

SSMEX said:


> 300 km/h is probably the fastest the current generation of HSR technology will get us in revenue service, and it's remained at that level for decades now. It'll probably take maglevs to make any economic sense to go faster.


Maglevs make no economic sense. CRH has demonstrated that +300 running on conventional tech is viable if you want it.



foxmulder said:


> First, it is already 310km/h. I know it may be just 10km/h but still 300km/h is not the maximum. Second, and more significant, Chinese high speed trains run at *350km/h literally for years* until the infamous Wenzhou train accident after which speeds were lowered not because of economics but more due to politics/management.
> 
> I bet with the new trains, after a certain operational period, we will see 350km/h. I give it ~one years.


Economics did play a role in the slowdown. Running significantly over 300km/h really increases operating costs but the Chinese were willing to swallow it for bragging rights. After Wenzhou, bragging doesn't really cut it when your image was that tarnished. Plus the government needed to show the people that they have done something in response to the accident. I could see them raise it back to 350-380km/h given that confidence in the CRH system is quite high now. Today, the Beijing-Shanghai HSR operates at a huge profit. They could push speeds higher for more capacity and attractive travel times. Other lines also operate at a profit but given that they are shorter intercity lines running those at a higher speed really does not make a big difference to a regular traveler.


----------



## flankerjun

*hi guys,today Beijing-Shanghai HSR have tested 350KM/h commercial run,with CR400A/BF ,here are the pictures.350km/h is not far from us.
the train number is G9/G10,no passengers on the train,the fastest time is 4h12min.with 2 stops at City Xuzhou and Nanjing.
*


----------



## ccdk

*Ordering favorite food for your HSR ride? NO PROBLEM!*
http://epaper.bjnews.com.cn/html/2017-07/18/content_688680.htm?div=-1
http://www.yueyang.gov.cn/nanhu/29509/29515/29520/content_884249.html
http://news.ifeng.com/a/20170718/51448578_0.shtml#p=8


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## Gusiluz

It has already been seen that the reduction of speed was previous to the accident. 
But really the current top speed is 309 km / h?
Shanghai – Kunming high speed line completed. Railway Gazette 28 Dec 2016. 


> The line has been designed for 350 km/h operation, with trains initially running at up to 330 km/h according to China Railway Corp.


On the other hand, what does it mean that the CR400AF has a top speed of 400 and an average of 350? 
In order to homologate to 400 it is necessary to circulate of sustained form to 440 with slope of 5 mm, the average speed depends on the stops and the design of the line.


----------



## abcpdo

ccdk said:


> *Ordering favorite food for your HSR ride? NO PROBLEM!*
> http://epaper.bjnews.com.cn/html/2017-07/18/content_688680.htm?div=-1
> http://www.yueyang.gov.cn/nanhu/29509/29515/29520/content_884249.html
> http://news.ifeng.com/a/20170718/51448578_0.shtml#p=8




The train attendants look pissed that they might have do this for many passengers at each station from now on.


----------



## Icefer

prangar said:


> ""The Fuxing class trains are designed to travel at 350 kilometers per hour on average with a maximum speed of 400 km/h," designers at the China Academy of Railway Sciences, or CARS, revealed in a statement."
> 
> Does this mean that the current 300 km/h top speed limit will be relaxed for the new CRH400 trains?


Speed depends not only on the train but on the curves of the line. Certain segments of newly-built lines allow cruising at 400, for instance the almost-started-construction Russian HSL2 eastbound from Moscow to Kazan and later to Yekaterinburg. Existing Chinese lines allow at some segments cruising at 380, but to my knowledge no regular commercial services do it. In part because even though the line allowed, the trains that could sustain it didn't exist before. Which, in turn, shows that infrastructure engineers were wise enough to look a little bit into the future.

As for the economic sense of maglev - well, at any given level of technology development it allows 50% greater cruising speed. For instance, when the shanghai line was built which can stand 450 km/h [although yes, for a brief dozen seconds after which it's time to slow back down] the typical crusing speed of conventional HSL was 300 and there were some talks about 320.
Now, as far as i understand, the almost-completed Japanese maglev is designed for circa 525-540 km/h cruising speed while conventional lines do 350-360. The profitability, including the relative one against conventional HSL, remains to be seen.


----------



## luhai

flankerjun said:


> *hi guys,today Beijing-Shanghai HSR have tested 350KM/h commercial run,with CR400A/BF ,here are the pictures.350km/h is not far from us.
> the train number is G9/G10,no passengers on the train,the fastest time is 4h12min.with 2 stops at City Xuzhou and Nanjing.
> *



From the rumor mill, 350km/h will happen by the end of the year at the latest and autumn schedule refresh at the earliest. I wonder if the speed up will be a blanket roll out that applied to all G trains or will be slowly rolled out on a line by line basis. Also If D train will go back to running at 250km/h as well.

Rail Corp supposably will roll out airline like differential pricing and yield management as well, I guess they will have give out some benefit rather than just blankly increase price. 

Looks like HSR in China is finally growing back it confidence and profitability.


----------



## Silly_Walks

flankerjun said:


> *hi guys,today Beijing-Shanghai HSR have tested 350KM/h commercial run,with CR400A/BF ,here are the pictures.350km/h is not far from us.
> the train number is G9/G10,no passengers on the train,the fastest time is 4h12min.with 2 stops at City Xuzhou and Nanjing.
> *


Can we have one with just a stop at Nanjing? Pretty please?


----------



## tjrgx

*High-speed train to reach Shanghai from Beijing in 4 hours*

http://www.ecns.cn/2017/07-19/265957.shtml

Trains on the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway will be traveling at up to 350 kilometers per hour around this year's National Day, Beijing-based Caixin online reported.

The speeds of "Hexie" and "Fuxing" class bullet trains will both improve, and the time required for the G1 train to run between Beijing and Shanghai will be shortened by 49 minutes to 4 hours.

China Railway is currently preparing for the speed increases with multiple departments.

A China Railway Signal & Communication Corp member noted that staffers are testing tracks, train vehicles and signals.

China's high-speed rail system began to slow down from July 1, 2011. All the high-speed trains that could reach a top speed of 350 km/h were slowed to 300 km/h except for the ones running between Beijing and Tianjin.

He Huawu, chief engineer of the China Railway Signal & Communication Corp, noted that the decision to limit the top speed to 300 km/h was mainly based on operating and maintenance costs, which increase with higher speeds.

But there are always voices calling for more speed.

After the limit of the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway is boosted to 350 km/h, the Xuzhou to Xi'an section of the Lianyungang-Lanzhou passenger line, the Beijing to Wuhan section of the Beijing-Guangzhou high-speed railway, and the Shanghai-Hangzhou section of the Shanghai-Kunming passenger line will also increase train speed to that level.

The Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway is 1,318-kilometre long and connects two major economic zones in China, the Bohai Economic Rim and the Yangtze River Delta. Construction began on April 18, 2008, and the line opened to the public for commercial service on June 30, 2011. The rail line is the world's longest high-speed line ever constructed in a single phase.


----------



## Pansori

Could this FINALLY be the time when we'll be seeing trains running 350km/h again?

Can we expect most current 200km/h lines to be increased to their design speed of 250km/h too? Like the Coastal HSR from Shenzhen towards Ningbo?


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Are the coastal lines maxed out at 200km/h currently?



tjrgx said:


> http://www.ecns.cn/2017/07-19/265957.shtml
> 
> Trains on the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway will be traveling at up to 350 kilometers per hour around this year's National Day, Beijing-based Caixin online reported.
> 
> The speeds of "Hexie" and "Fuxing" class bullet trains will both improve, and the time required for the G1 train to run between Beijing and Shanghai will be shortened by 49 minutes to 4 hours.
> 
> China Railway is currently preparing for the speed increases with multiple departments.
> 
> A China Railway Signal & Communication Corp member noted that staffers are testing tracks, train vehicles and signals.
> 
> China's high-speed rail system began to slow down from July 1, 2011. All the high-speed trains that could reach a top speed of 350 km/h were slowed to 300 km/h except for the ones running between Beijing and Tianjin.
> 
> <snip>



Very exciting news! :cheers:


----------



## Pansori

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Are the coastal lines maxed out at 200km/h currently?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very exciting news! :cheers:


Trains go 200km/h (up to 210km/h or so in reality) on the coastal line.


----------



## tjrgx

*Cross-platform interchange system put into use in China's Sichuan*

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-07/25/c_136471957.htm









Passengers pass the entrance of the Xipu station in Chengdu, capital of southwest China's Sichuan Province, July 25, 2017. The station, providing a cross-platform interchange system between Line 2 of Chengdu Metro and Chengguan Railway, was put into use on Tuesday.


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## luacstjh98

It's not exactly cross-platform, is it?

Such arrangements would probably have worked better in Europe where there's a high degree of integration between long-distance and local service (subway, commuter rail) than in China where they hold everyone in a waiting area until the long distance trains arrive.


----------



## saiho

luacstjh98 said:


> It's not exactly cross-platform, is it?
> 
> Such arrangements would probably have worked better in Europe where there's a high degree of integration between long-distance and local service (subway, commuter rail) than in China where they hold everyone in a waiting area until the long distance trains arrive.


Well you still walk across the platform to change trains.


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## Sopomon

foxmulder said:


> Fixed it for you. Your welcome. :cheers:


I'm sure China Daily would appreciate your edits.


----------



## mrmoopt

Do the c trains take metro fare cards for ticketing?


----------



## tjrgx

*China railway current status-20170725*

From [email protected]

update: 20170725
PDF: http://docdro.id/qWEe4vN

red: in construction
brown: testing phase
yellow: feasbility study
green: long-term plan
blue: in operation

thin line: <160kph
thick line: HSR
dot-line: electrification


----------



## KillerZavatar

^^
they don't seem to show the bridge between HK and Zhuhai that is under construction. And I thought there was a rail tunnel planned from Dalian southwards thru to Shandong


----------



## Transhumanista

*350 km/h!*





































https://twitter.com/HenriKenhmann/status/890444069612118016


----------



## wedonttalkanymore99

A vactrain is a proposed, as-yet-unbuilt design for future high-speed railroad transportation. This would entail building maglev lines through evacuated (air-less) or partly evacuated tubes or tunnels. Though the technology is currently being investigated for development of regional networks, advocates have suggested establishing vactrains for transcontinental routes to form a global network. The lack of air resistance could permit vactrains to use little power and to move at extremely high speeds, up to (4000-5000 mph (6400–8000 km/h) or 5-6 times the speed of sound at sea level and standard conditions


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## Short

cal_t said:


> Do the c trains take metro fare cards for ticketing?


No, that is why there are two different sets of barrier gates set close together. The first one in the photo is for CRH services and the second one is for Chengdu Metro.


----------



## tjrgx

KillerZavatar said:


> ^^
> they don't seem to show the bridge between HK and Zhuhai that is under construction. And I thought there was a rail tunnel planned from Dalian southwards thru to Shandong


That is not a railway bridge; the tunnel is really long long term plan :bash:


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## KillerZavatar

Oh ok, thanks for clearing that up


----------



## tjrgx

*Liaoning section of Beijing-Shenyang HSR to be completed by end of 2018*









^^Photo taken on July 11, 2017 shows the construction site of Xinglongdian grand bridge in northeast China's Liaoning Province. The Beijing-Shenyang high-speed railway, linking China's capital Beijing and the Liaoning provincial capital Shenyang, is about 700 km long and is designed with a speed of 350 km per hour. Work on the Beijing-Shenyang railway project started in 2014. And Liaoning section is expected to be completed by the end of 2018. (Xinhua/Yang Qing)









^^Photo taken on May 23, 2017 shows the construction site of railway station in Fuxin, northeast China's Liaoning Province.









^^Photo taken on July 18, 2017 shows a railway construction site of Shenyang west station section, northeast China's Liaoning Province. 









^^Photo taken on June 17, 2017 shows a railway construction site of Shenyang west station section in northeast China's Liaoning Province.









^^Photo taken on July 12, 2017 shows a construction site of the Beijing-Shenyang high-speed railway in Fuxin, northeast China's Liaoning Province.









^^Photo taken on Jan. 10, 2017 shows the construction site of Liaoxi Tunnel of the Beijing-Shenyang high-speed railway, in northeast China's Liaoning Province. 









^^Photo taken on July 11, 2017 shows the construction site of Fuxin section of the Beijing-Shenyang high-speed railway, northeast China's Liaoning Province.









^^Photo taken on July 11, 2017 shows the construction site of Heishan north railway station of the Beijing-Shenyang high-speed railway in northeast China's Liaoning Province. 









^^Photo taken on July 12, 2017 shows a bridge construction site of the Beijing-Shenyang high-speed railway in Fuxin, northeast China's Liaoning Province.


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## tjrgx

*Railway linking Changchun, Baicheng and Ulanhot in test operation*

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-07/27/c_136478055.htm









^^An inter-city bullet train is seen on the railway linking Changchun, Baicheng, both in northeast China's Jilin Province, and Ulanhot in north China's Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region, on July 13, 2017. The 412-km-long railway is now in a test operation. (Xinhua/Huo Chunguang)



















^^An inter-city bullet train is seen in Changchun Station in Changchun, capital of northeast China's Jilin Province, July 26, 2017


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## tjrgx

*China's Fuxing bullet trains to restore 350 km/h speed on Beijing-Shanghai HSR in Sept*

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-07/27/c_136478028.htm

BEIJING, July 27 (Xinhua) -- China started tests Thursday to restore the maximum speed of the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed bullet train to 350 kilometers per hour, six years after it was reduced to 300.

Departing Beijing South Railway Station at 8:38 a.m., a Fuxing bullet train completed the round-trip from Beijing to Xuzhou in east China's Jiangsu Province, about 700 kilometers away, in about four hours.

The speed hike will cut the Beijing-Shanghai journey to about 4.5 hours, about half an hour faster than the current minimum.

The test will pave way for a new schedule on the Beijing-Shanghai railway starting mid-September.

Connecting the Chinese capital with its major financial and trade hub, the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway is one of the busiest in the country, carrying over 100 million passengers a year.

The test on Thursday showed that energy consumption on the Fuxing decreased to 10 percent less than on the Hexie train (CRH380) when running at a speed of 350 kilometers per hour.

"The Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway is built to the highest standard, while the Fuxing is designed and manufactured with an operating speed of 350 kilometers per hour. It is out of question for Fuxing to run on the Beijing-Shanghai line at such a speed from the point of view of technical safety, reliability and comfort," said Lu Dongfu, general manager of China Railway Corporation.

China started to run its first 350-kmh high speed train between Beijing and Tianjin in Aug. 2008 and opened at least three more such high speed lines nationwide in the following years, until the authorities ordered speeds to be cut to between 250-300kmh in 2011.

China's Fuxing bullet trains were unveiled in June and are capable of top speeds of 400 kmh.

China will open seven Fuxing trains in either direction of the Beijing-Shanghai line in its initial stage. The ticket price will not change.

The authorities will gradually increase the number of the new bullet train and adjust ticket prices in future, He said.

China has the world's longest high-speed rail network, 22,000 kilometers at the end of last year, or about 60 percent of the world's total.

About one-third of China's high-speed railways were designed to run at a speed of 350 kmh, according to He.


----------



## Pansori

Prep test for the restoration of 350km/h service speed


----------



## FM 2258

I would like to understand how the Chinese pulled off this high speed railway project so successfully. Obviously a combination of good project management, people management, engineering and something else I have no idea. I also don't understand how railways really work to keep track of all the different trains and coordinating all of them to work flawlessly. Probably have to railroad school to understand it all. All in all this project is amazingly impressive. :cheers:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

tjrgx said:


> http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-07/27/c_136478028.htm
> 
> BEIJING, July 27 (Xinhua) -- China started tests Thursday to restore the maximum speed of the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed bullet train to 350 kilometers per hour, six years after it was reduced to 300.
> 
> The speed hike will cut the Beijing-Shanghai journey to about 4.5 hours, about half an hour faster than the current minimum.
> 
> The test will pave way for a new schedule on the Beijing-Shanghai railway starting mid-September.
> 
> The test on Thursday showed that energy consumption on the Fuxing decreased to 10 percent less than on the Hexie train (CRH380) when running at a speed of 350 kilometers per hour.
> 
> China will open seven Fuxing trains in either direction of the Beijing-Shanghai line in its initial stage. The ticket price will not change.


How shall these 7 Fuxing trains get past Hexie trains?


----------



## foxmulder

Pansori said:


> Prep test for the restoration of 350km/h service speed


Turn up the volume, lol.. hahahha


----------



## tjrgx

chornedsnorkack said:


> How shall these 7 Fuxing trains get past Hexie trains?


Result in delays... until pattern change in September


----------



## saiho

chornedsnorkack said:


> Partly due to Chinese administrative terminology.
> Tohoku Shinkansen serves the following prefectures:
> Aomori Prefecture - area 9606 square km, population 1,373 millions
> Iwate Prefecture - 15 278 square km, 1,332 millions
> Miyagi Prefecture - 7285 square km, 2,321 millions
> Fukushima Prefecture - 13 783 square km, 1,928 millions
> Tochigi Prefecture - 6408 square km, 1,969 millions
> Saitama Prefecture and Tokyo City are parts of Tokyo metropolis.
> 
> For comparison: Chengde prefecture level "city"
> area 39 519 square km
> population 3,610 millions
> The area is about as big as the four prefectures of Tochigi, Fukushima, Miyagi and Iwate combined. But those 4 combine to a population of 7,5 millions.
> Chaoyang prefecture level "city" - area 19 698 square km, population 3,045 millions
> Fuxin prefecture level "city" - 10 445 square km, 1,819 millions
> Jinzhou prefecture level "city" - 10 111 square km, 3,07 millions
> Shenyang prefecture level "city" - 12 942 square km, 8,106 millions.



If you normalize it by density the picture changes a bit.

Aomori Prefecture - 143 ppl/km^2
Iwate Prefecture - 87 ppl/km^2
Miyagi Prefecture - 319 ppl/km^2
Fukushima Prefecture - 140 ppl/km^2
Tochigi Prefecture - 307 ppl/km^2

Chaoyang prefecture level "city" - 91 ppl/km^2
Fuxin prefecture level "city" - 154 ppl/km^2
Jinzhou prefecture level "city" - 174 ppl/km^2
Shenyang prefecture level "city" - 626 ppl/km^2

However a better comparison would be to count the pop within 50km or something of a station. I could imagine that most of the population density in the Japanese Prefectures hug their respective HSRs more closely than the Chinese ones given the geography. The Beijing Shenyang PDL just skirts over the top of Jinzhou in Heishan County while most of Jinzhou's population is located in the south. Of course comparison between those two corridors are not perfect. With the Beijing Shenyang PDL being anchored by two large cities (from a global perspective) on both ends while the Joetsu Shinkansen just has Tokyo on one end.


----------



## tjrgx

*China is building high-speed railway station under Great Wall*

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2017-07/31/content_30305505.htm










Chinese workers are building the world's deepest and Asia's largest underground high-speed railway station beneath the Great Wall at the Badaling section in Beijing.

The station under construction will be 3-story high and have a 36,000 square meters floor area, including platform, entrance and exit. The railway tracks will be 102 meters underground.

The station is an important part of a 12.01 kilometers long tunnel section of the 174-kilometer Beijing–Zhangjiakou high-speed railway line. The tunnel is the longest one of the railway line.

"Passengers will enter and exit the station about 100 meters underground, and it will be very safe," said Dai Longzhen, a senior manager of the construction company China Railway No 5 Engineering Group Co Ltd.

An escalator would raise passengers 62 meters at vertical height, and inclined elevators will also be used in the station for the first time.

To secure the safety of passengers, the station will change the inclined shafts that are used to build the station as permanent rescue channels.

The underground burrowing work is the country's most complicated, because the station has to contain 78 caverns and lots of intersections, said Chen Bin, a commander-in-chief of the project.

Starting from the construction of the tunnel on April 15, 2016, workers have known how tough the work will be, however the hardness of the rocks still exceeded their expectations, said Jiang Si, a manager of the company.

According to its initial plan, workers could excavate the tunnel 6 to 8 meters a day, but the tough rock meant workers could dig only about 2 meters a day.

Large–size shield tunneling machines could not be used, and workers could only use the blasting method in the construction, Dai said.

"The No 1 shaft has a 80-degree turn, and the No 2 shaft has a 135-degree turn, which prohibits the machines more than 100 meters long from working there," Dai said.

Workers have to develop new blasting technology to explore the tunnel carefully, because just above it are the Great Wall and the railway line linking Beijing and Zhangjiakou first independently designed and built by Chinese 100 years ago.

Workers have carried out more than 4,500 explosions. They use the electronic detonators to control the vibrations in batches of small explosions to reduce the impacts on the inside of hills and the Great Wall. At the Qinglongqiao station of old Beijing-Zhangjiakou railway line, worker used expansive agents to dig the tunnel, only 4 meters beneath.

Another problem in the tunneling is the underground water, and every day, workers have to pump at least 19,000 cubic meters of water, which equals about 10 swimming pools.

The Bejing-Zhangjiakou high-speed railway is expected to get through by the end of 2019, allowing passengers to travel between the two cities in one hour. It is an important project for the 2022 Winter Olympic Games.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

saiho said:


> However a better comparison would be to count the pop within 50km or something of a station.


Stations outside Beijing:
*Xinlong West - Xinglong County contains as 2 enclaves Yingzhouyingzi Mining District. Combined area 3264 square km, population 390 000
*Chengde South - the 2 districts of Shuangqiao and Shuanglian have combined area 561 square km, population 390 000
*Pingquan North - Pingquan county level city has area 3297 square km, population 470 000
*Lingyuan South - Lingyuan county level city has area 3297 square km, population 650 000
*Kazuo - Harqin Left Wing Mongol Autonomous County has area 2240 square km, population 420 000
*Chaoyang North - the 2 districts of Longcheng and Shuangta have combined area 557 square km, population 480 000
*Beipiao East - Beipiao county level city has area 4583 square km, population 620 000
*Fuxin North - the 4 districts of Haizhou, Xinqiu, Taiping and Xihe have combined area 459 square km, population 710 000
*Heishan North - Heishan county has area 2436 square km, population 630 000
*Xinmin North - Xinmin county level city has area 3297 square km (?), population 691 000
*New Shenyang North - the 5 districts of central Shenyang have combined area 571 square km, population 3 775 000


----------



## tjrgx

*China's high-speed trains becoming the preferred choice for travelers*

Not only does China have more people than any other country on the earth, it also has the largest migrant population.


----------



## tjrgx

*Jiangsu to Build High-Speed Rail Network to Foster City Cluster Development Along Yangtze River*

https://www.yicaiglobal.com/news/ji...-city-cluster-development-along-yangtze-river

(Yicai Global) Aug. 1 -- Jiangsu, East China’s economically advanced province, is building high-speed rail network to form a more connected city cluster among its major cities along the Yangtze River. The Jiangsu Provincial Development and Reform Commission and relevant departments in eight cities along the Yangtze River are drafting an implementation plan, Yicai Global learned.

The planned rail network will form a high-speed rail connection in the city cluster along the Yangtze River to create "one-hour commuting circle” in the region.

The Yangtze city cluster covering eight cities along the Yangtze River, namely, Nanjing, capital of Jiangsu province, Zhenjiang, Changzhou, Wuxi, Suzhou, Yangzhou, Taizhou, and Nantong, has a per capita GDP of more than CNY120,000 (USD17,647), contributing about 80 percent of the total provincial economy in Jiangsu and is one of the regions with strongest comprehensive competitiveness in China.

Building Yangtze River city cluster will be conducive to economic integration and transformation and upgrading between South Jiangsu in the south of the Yangtze River and Central Jiangsu in the north of the River, Wang Shuhua, associate research fellow at the Institute of Regional Modernization Research at Jiangsu Provincial Academy of Social Sciences, told Yicai Global.

Due to insurmountable constraints of the Yangtze River and other reasons, exchanges of personnel and elements between the two shores of the Yangtze River proved to be highly inconvenient in the past, resulting in the differences in the economic development of South Jiangsu, and Central and North Jiangsu, Wang said. High-speed rail network construction will provide the necessary ground for economic integration in these areas.


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## chornedsnorkack

tjrgx said:


> Due to insurmountable constraints of the Yangtze River and other reasons, exchanges of personnel and elements between the two shores of the Yangtze River proved to be highly inconvenient in the past,


Other reasons such as negligence.
Runyang Bridge
Taizhou Bridge
Jiangyin Bridge
Sutong Bridge
Chongming tunnel-bridge complex
all of them lack railway.


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## tjrgx

*Hankou-Shiyan HSR over Beijing-Guangzhou railway*

http://vip.people.com.cn/do/userbuy.jsp?picId=7154765&aId=1079029

Pics taken on Aug, 1st, 2017


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## tjrgx

*Hohhot-Ulanqab section of Zhangjiakou-Hohhot HSR set to open on Aug 3*

http://vip.people.com.cn/do/userbuy.jsp?aId=1079152

Pics taken on Aug 2 2017


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## saiho

chornedsnorkack said:


> Other reasons such as negligence.
> Runyang Bridge
> Taizhou Bridge
> Jiangyin Bridge
> Sutong Bridge
> Chongming tunnel-bridge complex
> all of them lack railway.


Chongming tunnel-bridge complex has provision for some sort of railway.
Plus, the Shanghai–Nantong Railway and the Lianyungang–Zhenjiang railway is under construction with both featuring new crossings on the Yangtze. I agree there needs to be additional rail crossings for pairs such as Jiangyin/Jingjiang and Yangzhong/Gaogang.


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## tjrgx

*China’s First Local Government-Controlled HSR to Enter Operations Next Year*

https://www.yicaiglobal.com/news/ch...high-speed-railway-enter-operations-next-year

(Yicai Global) Aug. 3 -- China's northeastern Shandong provincial government has started work to install tracks for what will be China’s first local-government controlled high-speed railway line. The Jinan-Qingdao is expected to enter operation in 2018, reports the local Qilu Evening News.

The local government started track-laying four months ahead of schedule, with construction set to be completed by the end of December, the report said.

Once operational, the train line, with a total length of 307.9 kilometers, will facilitate a two-hour commute time between two of Shandong's major cities, the provincial capital Jinan and the key port city of Qingdao.

The local government provided 80 percent of total funding needed for the project, while China Railway Group Ltd. contributed the remaining 20 percent.

Construction began at the end of 2015, with work carried out by companies including China Railway, China Railway Construction Corp Ltd. and China State Construction Engineering Corp Ltd.


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## tjrgx

*Inner Mongolia high speed line opens*

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/inner-mongolia-high-speed-line-opens.html

CHINA: Revenue services on the 126 km Hohhot – Ulanqab section of the future Hohhot – Zhangjiakou high speed line in Inner Mongolia began on August 3. Trial running had begun on June 29.

Construction of the 287 km Hohhot –Zhangjiakou line started in April 2014, and revenue services on the whole route are expected to start in March 2018. The alignment is designed for trains running at up to 250 km/h, and now offers a Hohhot – Ulanqab journey time of 39 min, down from 56 min on the older line which had a maximum operating speed of 160 km/h.

A 174 km line between Beijing Bei and Zhangjiakou is scheduled to be opened in 2019, completing a high speed corridor from Beijing to Hohhot which would cut journey times from more than 9 h to around 3 h.


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## tjrgx

*First high-speed rail in China's Inner Mongolia starts operation*

^^


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## flankerjun

*CR400AF*


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## Gusiluz

Inner Mongolia high speed line opens


> The alignment is designed for trains running at up to 250 km/h, and now offers a Hohhot – Ulanqab journey time of 39 min, down from 56 min on the older line which had a maximum operating speed of 160 km/h.


126 km Ulanqab-Hohhot in 39 minutes it is an average of 194 km/h, ie: top speed of 250 km/h.



> The remainder of the line from Ulanqab to Zhangjiakou in neighbouring Hebei province is due to open in 2018.
> ...
> A 174 km line between Beijing Bei and Zhangjiakou is scheduled to be opened in 2019, completing a high speed corridor from Beijing to Hohhot which would cut journey times from more than 9 h to around 3 h.


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## chornedsnorkack

Gusiluz said:


> Inner Mongolia high speed line opens
> 
> 
> 126 km Ulanqab-Hohhot in 39 minutes it is an average of 194 km/h, ie: top speed of 250 km/h.


The fastest trains Jining-Hohhot seem to be 

Z183 - 68 minutes
D6773 - 70 minutes
D6771 - 71 minutes
D6769 - 77 minutes


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## Gusiluz

^^ Well, in the media say 39 minutes, and in these webs 
http://www.chinatrainguide.com/stntostn.php
http://english.ctrip.com/trains/

also:

39 m D6961
40 m D6962
46 m D6963
47 m D6964
39 m D6965
40 m D6966

Z trains run at 160 km/h.

They appear when looking for Jining-Hohhot, although in the name of station it puts "null" instead of Jining.

Maybe the new station is called "Ulanqab" and still have not changed the name on the webs.


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## hkskyline

bullet train at luoyang high speed rail station by eikzilla, on Flickr


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## Slartibartfas

FM 2258 said:


> I would like to understand how the Chinese pulled off this high speed railway project so successfully. Obviously a combination of good project management, people management, engineering and something else I have no idea. I also don't understand how railways really work to keep track of all the different trains and coordinating all of them to work flawlessly. Probably have to railroad school to understand it all. All in all this project is amazingly impressive. :cheers:


Just like others said here, HSR is a very mature technology. Leading companies involved in this business for decades sold out their know how for good money, hoping they'd stay ahead of the curve. Because of the whole dimension of the HSR program in China the Chinese could afford to raise a whole new industry branch around it, first producing for those established companies, than copying their designs on their own and nowadays they are making the step towards own developments, becoming proper competitors in the market. 

Of course, it helped that NIMBYs don't stand much chance in China and that there is also no ideological opposition against HSR like in the US, where some see the communist devil in public transportation of any kind.


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## hkskyline

A lot of the technology is refined from foreign companies who had to operate in China under a JV / partnership, so some technology transfer took place.


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## RonnieR

I'm impressed with the high speed rails in China. :cheers:


----------



## Short

The maps and list shown are all missing the Guangyuan-Longnan section of the Chongqing-Lanzhou HSR. This opened in January 2017. Although only conventional trains are using the section, I believe, until the rest of the line is completed at the end of this year.


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## Gusiluz

^^ Thank you very much!

It effectively entered into service on 12/26/2016 and the list is the first section: Chongqing-Guangyuan (12/26/2015). Here they explain it:
http://scnews.newssc.org/system/20161226/000735349.htm

There are two K-trains, the fastest one takes 1 h 31 m to cover 139 km. From Chongqing it is 7 h 25 m to 516 km with 9 stops. Very slow.


Does anyone know when the section *Loudi (and Loudi South)-Shaoyang* started?

Thanks in advance


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## tjrgx

Gusiluz said:


> Does anyone know when the section *Loudi (and Loudi South)-Shaoyang* started?
> 
> Thanks in advance


2016.01.06

http://www.enghunan.gov.cn/news/Localnews/LTourism/201601/t20160107_2873938.html


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## tjrgx

*Aerial view of Jilin-Hunchun HSR in NE China*






Aerial view of "most beautiful high-speed rail" in NE China. The Jituhun line links Jilin with Hunchun, which borders Russia and North Korea. It has carried around 35 million passengers since it went into operation two years ago.


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## flankerjun

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Thank you very much!
> 
> It effectively entered into service on 12/26/2016 and the list is the first section: Chongqing-Guangyuan (12/26/2015). Here they explain it:
> http://scnews.newssc.org/system/20161226/000735349.htm
> 
> There are two K-trains, the fastest one takes 1 h 31 m to cover 139 km. From Chongqing it is 7 h 25 m to 516 km with 9 stops. Very slow.
> 
> 
> Does anyone know when the section *Loudi (and Loudi South)-Shaoyang* started?
> 
> Thanks in advance


YOUR MAP miss lots of HS line


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## Gusiluz

^^ It is not MY MAP, I "just" translated the names of cities from the Chinese language, numbered the lines and made the summary of the top left corner. Do you have a better one? Thank you!
It is the official map of the XIII Five Year Plan, at least that is said in Wikipedia in Chinese: Https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CRHS_zhs.svg 
and English: Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CRHS_zhs.svg
That's why I added a 17 "line" formed by "Liaison, branches, metropolitan and other sections". And it has not been easy at all.


On the other hand I have updated the last sections openings, some of them have not appeared in this thread:





Now I'll take some-I think- *well-deserved vacations*.


----------



## Short

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Thank you very much!
> 
> It effectively entered into service on 12/26/2016 and the list is the first section: Chongqing-Guangyuan (12/26/2015). Here they explain it:
> http://scnews.newssc.org/system/20161226/000735349.htm
> 
> There are two K-trains, the fastest one takes 1 h 31 m to cover 139 km. From Chongqing it is 7 h 25 m to 516 km with 9 stops. Very slow.
> 
> 
> Does anyone know when the section *Loudi (and Loudi South)-Shaoyang* started?
> 
> Thanks in advance


The full length of the Lanzhou-Chongqing High Speed Railway is under the last few days of testing. With acceptance being expected by September 10th and operations to begin around October 20th. However some freight operations could be running by September 29th.


----------



## mingrady

High Speed Railways in China 

From Economists:


----------



## tjrgx

*China’s high-speed trains are back on track*

^^

https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/09/daily-chart

CHINA’S high-speed rail system, just a decade old, is now one of the biggest infrastructure projects in history. The government in Beijing has spent an estimated 2.4trn yuan ($360bn) building 22,000km (13,670 miles) of high-speed rail lines, more than the rest of the world combined. This month, six years after a maximum speed limit was lowered following a deadly crash, China's trains are getting ready to accelerate.

China’s path from railway laggard to leader has been bumpy. In 2011 the head of the country’s railways ministry was sacked for his role in a massive bribery scandal. Months later, two high-speed trains collided near the eastern city of Wenzhou, killing 40 people and injuring some 200 more. In the wake of the deadly crash, Beijing temporarily halted new rail projects and reduced the maximum speed of its high-speed trains from 350kph to 300kph. The crash outraged many members of the Chinese public, as did the government’s censorship of critical media coverage of the accident. Some internet users began referring to the high-speed railway line, called Hexie or “harmony”, as Hexue or “drinking blood”.

Today, Chinese high-speed rail appears to be back on track. The government’s five-year plan calls for 3.5trn yuan in railway investment between 2016 and 2020. By then, if all goes to plan, the network will stretch 30,000km connecting more than 80% of the country’s major cities. With ever more passengers riding the speedy trains, many of the rail lines are now profitable. Their international reputation has also improved. In 2014 a group of World Bank researchers lauded the country’s trains as “world-class” and described the development of the railway network as “remarkable”.

In yet another sign of China’s confidence in its railways, on September 21st bullet trains traveling on the flagship Beijing-Shanghai line will once again whizz down the tracks at speeds of 350kph. The new trains, which can reach speeds of 400kph, will be branded with the word Fuxing or “rejuvenation”.


----------



## Norge78

*High-Speed Rail to halve SHANGHAI-CHENGDU travel time*






Authorities have started researching feasible plans on building a *high-speed railway line from Shanghai to Chengdu* in Sichuan province along the Yangtze River, one of the country's eight important east-to-west high-speed railway tracks.
China Railways Corp, the country's rail operator, and Anhui provincial government are likely to submit a plan to the central government on constructing the Hefei-Nanjing section of the line by the end of August.

The two have agreed to jointly build the section during the 13th Five-Year Plan period (2016-2020), the official WeChat account of Chengdu Hi-Tech Industrial Development Zone reported on Wednesday.

Hubei provincial government has also drawn up plans on building the sections in the Central China's province of the east-to-west line to link cities to the coastal area.

Hubei plans to build a high-speed railway to link Macheng and Enshi as part of the Shanghai-Chengdu line. The Jingmen-Yichang section will be the same line linking Xiangyang, Jingmen and Yichang, which will start construction next year.

According to a medium- and long-term plan to expand railway network approved by the State Council, China's Cabinet, last year, China will build eight rail lines north to south, and eight lines east to west.

The high-speed railway line along the Yangtze River will connect 22 cities from Shanghai to Chengdu. The train will have a maximum speed of *350 km/h*.

"The line starting from Shanghai, en route Nanjing, Hefei, Wuhan, Chongqing to Chengdu, will be built with the standard of 350 km/h, paralleling a passenger-dedicated line from Shanghai to Chengdu," a railway official said.

At the end of 2013, China completed a passenger-dedicated railway line from Shanghai to Chengdu, which takes 14 hours to complete the journey.

The high-speed railway will shorten the time from Chengdu to Wuhan to about three hours and from Chengdu to Shanghai to about seven hours.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2017-08/24/content_31046177.htm


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## doc7austin

When will some trains between Beijing and Shanghai be speed up to 350km/h?
Some news reports mentioned September. I cannot see any improved times on this route in the timetables - neither for trains in late September or early October.


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## YKC

The trains begin running at 350km/h from Sept 21 with no price increases compared to the slower HSR trains. Also recent news...

*Beijing Shanghai Second High Speed Railway* (350km/h)
Planned route is
Beijing - Tianjin - Dongying - Weifang - Linyi - Huai'an - Yangzhou - Nantong - Shanghai East

Shanghai East station will be located in Zhuqiaozhen, near to Pudong Airport. It will have 10 platforms and 22 lines. Construction to begin in Q4 2017 and completed in 2022.

Journey times
Beijing-Qingdao reduced to 2hrs
Qingdao-Shanghai reduced to 3hrs
Beijing-Shanghai reduced to 4hrs

Source: ​http://news.gaotie.cn/guihua/2017-08-30/417385.html


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## YKC

Also found this article from a tourism perspective, if you fancy it.

China's most epic high-speed rail journeys
https://www.lonelyplanet.com/china/travel-tips-and-articles/chinas-most-epic-high-speed-rail-journeys/40625c8c-8a11-5710-a052-1479d2768596


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## tjrgx

*China railway current status-20170901*



tjrgx said:


> From [email protected]
> 
> 
> red: in construction
> brown: testing phase
> yellow: feasbility study
> green: long-term plan
> blue: in operation
> 
> thin line: <160kph
> thick line: HSR
> dot-line: electrification


update: 20170901
PDF: http://docdro.id/42p8rXo


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## CarlosBlueDragon

when will complete high speed railway from Xi'an to Chengdu ??

and

how much RMB price per-ticket??


----------



## lawdefender

*China researches 600 km/h maglev train*

http://www.ecns.cn/cns-wire/2017/09-04/272064.shtml

1 2017-09-04 16:17Ecns.cnEditor: Mo Hong'e ECNS App Download
(ECNS) -- China's high-speed railcar maker CRRC has started a special project to research high-speed rail vehicles that can reach speeds up to 600 kilometers per hour, according to Sun Bangcheng, deputy director of CRRC Industrial Research Institute.

The project, one of 18 national key research and development plans set by the Ministry of Science and Technology in 2016, is researching both high-speed passenger and freight trains, Sun said. The project will be completed by 2021 at a total investment of over 9 billion yuan ($580 million).

The project includes six types of trains -- three for freight, one high-speed passenger train and two types of maglev trains, according to Chinese-language Science and Technology Daily.

Freight trains with speeds of 250 km/h can transport seafood from Haikou in South China's Hainan Province to Beijing in north China in one day, according to a project officer at CRRC.

Research into maglev includes a train that can reach 600 km/h and another that travels at 200 km/h. Research is to prepare for "the post-high-speed rail age" in technology, said Sun.

The cost of a 600 km/h maglev train is almost the same as a 400 km/h version, according to recent research.

So far, Japanese-made maglev trains can travel 603 km/h at its maximum speed and German-designed maglevs can hit 505 km/h. The operating speed of maglev trains in Shanghai, which use German technology, is 430 km/h.

The first Chinese-made high-speed maglev train will roll off the operation line in 2018, the report said.

At a forum in Wuhan, capital of Hubei Province, Liu Shiquan, deputy general manager at CASIC, said China will research ultra-speed trains that can "fly" at 4,000 km/h.


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## tjrgx

*China lays track for longest high-speed railway in high latitude area*

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/06/c_136589197.htm

China lays track for longest high-speed railway in high latitude area

HARBIN, Sept. 6 (Xinhua) -- Track laying of the 343 km Harbin-Jiamusi high-speed railway, China's longest high-speed railway in a high latitude area, has been finished, according to China Railway on Wednesday.

According to the company, the high-speed railway is planned to open in June 2018.

Running at 200 kilometers per hour, the railway will cut travel time between Harbin, capital of northeast Heilongjiang Province, and Jiamusi in the same province to 1.5 hours from 7 hours.

The railway has 14 stops, including Binxi, Fangzheng, Demoli and Yilan.

The line is expected to increase freight and passenger capacity between cities along the route and facilitate China's trade with Russia, as Jiamusi is near the border.

The high latitude railway runs through four tunnels and on 120 bridges, according to Yuan Zhengguo, director of the railway's engineering headquarters.

China has the world's longest high-speed rail network, about 22,000 kilometers at the end of last year, about 60 percent of the world's total.


----------



## :jax:

Yeah, but not as far north and only slightly longer than Harbin-Qiqihar, and wouldn't seem as strategic as the Suifenhe–Manzhouli section. Though it will be halfway from Harbin to Khabarovsk.


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## Norge78

*China to build world's most challenging railway*










CHENGDU — Breathtaking scenery and breathtaking dangers - both will face Chinese engineers as they embark on building the world's most difficult railway.

The Sichuan-Tibet Railway will be the second railway into Southwest China's Tibet autonomous region after the Qinghai-Tibet Railway. The line will go through the southeast of the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau, one of the world's most geologically active areas.

"The construction and operation of the Sichuan-Tibet Railway must overcome the biggest risks in the world," said You Yong, chief engineer of the Institute of Mountain Hazards and Environment of the Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS), who is leading a scientific and technological support team to avoid disasters in the mountains.

China Railway Eryuan Engineering Group Co Ltd, which is designing the line, said it will run from Chengdu, capital of Southwest China's Sichuan province, through Ya'an and Kangding, and enter Tibet via Qamdo. It will then go through Nyingchi and Shannan prefectures before arriving at Lhasa, capital of Tibet. The total construction length will be about 1,700 kilometers and it will cost 250 billion yuan (about $36.88 billion).

Construction has begun on the two ends of the railway. The section between Chengdu and Ya'an is expected to open in June 2018. The feasibility study on the section between Ya'an and Kangding has been completed. The section between Lhasa and Nyingchi is under construction.

However, the section from Kangding to Nyingchi - the most difficult and the longest section - is still under design. Its construction is expected to begin in 2019 and could take about seven years, according to the China Railway Eryuan Engineering Group Co Ltd.

The Sichuan-Tibet Railway will be a major line in the western China rail network, connecting Tibet and more developed central and eastern regions. The design speed is from 160 km per hour to 200 km per hour. On completion, the travel time by train from Chengdu to Lhasa will be cut from 48 hours to about 13 hours.

You Yong, who has spent almost 30 years studying mountain hazards, said the line will traverse the eastern Qinghai-Tibet Plateau, which has sharp changes in terrain.

The active geological structure of the region causes strong earthquakes. The railway will go through earthquake zones such as the Longmen Mountain and Yarlung Zangbo River seismic belts, You said.

You said the Sichuan-Tibet Railway has four major environmental characteristics: significant terrain elevation differences, strong plate activities, frequent mountain disasters, and a sensitive ecological environment.

Mountain hazards were a major challenge. "The regions along the Sichuan-Tibet Railway have the most developed, most active, most diverse and most serious mountain hazards in China," You said.

"Constructing a railway in such a complicated geological environment will face a lot of scientific and technological difficulties. And the prevention and control of mountain hazards will be key to its success," said You.

The CAS began in 2014 to analyze the mountain hazard distribution patterns and risks, and experiment on disaster prevention along the route.

To date, scientists have identified the basic distribution and activities of mountain hazards, and set up a data bank for the hazards along the route.

Based on analysis of the risks, researchers offered their advice on the route selection and technologies to prevent and control the landslides and debris flows.

The government is also planning to build an expressway connecting Sichuan and Tibet. The scientific findings will also be applied in that construction.

Experts say the railway and expressway will push forward the opening up and economic development of Tibet.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-07/05/content_30001792.htm

***




Any news about the Beijing - Kowloon HSR?

Thx


----------



## Gusiluz

*Metropolitan HSR*

When it comes to developing my own list of inaugural HSR sections in China (Sections placed in service in chronological order) i always doubt if I should put the new lines of short distance around large conurbations and that are not part of the major 8 + 8 axes. Finally I think it's always better to put everything I find and to take away what I believe is not HS.

New sections with high-speed trains and speeds of 200/250 km/h only occur in China, since the rest are used lines and long-distance trains. Except in Spain, where there are three series of trains (104 114 and 121) for 250 km/h and specialized in that type of traffic up to 300 km away under the trade name Avant; but long-distance lines are used, except in the case of Toledo, which has a short branch of 21 km from the LAV Madrid-Seville. Also Avant squares are marketed in Alvia and Ave trains.

These are the lines I have found; I appreciate corrections, additions and more information.

Notes: I put the current maps to locate the stations. Color red for 300/350 km/h, yellow for 200/250.

*Beijing: Jing-Jin-Ji plan*
China’s National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC) gave the go-ahead for a Yuan 247bn ($US 36bn) project to improve 1,104 km rail links between Beijing and surrounding towns and cities due to be completed by 2020.


> The project encompasses nine lines:
> 
> Km Line
> 160 Capital Airport-Daxing New Airport via Tongzhou, Yizhuang and Langfang (09/2019) (NE → E→ SE → S)
> 078 Beijing-Bazhou (09/2019) (→ S)
> 149 Beijing-Tangshan (→ E)
> 098 Beijing-Tianjin Binhai New Area (→ SE)
> 067 Chongli Railway (→ NW)
> 065 Lanfang-Zhuozhou (SE → SW)
> 088 Ring Line Langfang-Pinggu section (NE → SE)
> 106 Gu’an-Baoding (S → SW)
> 293 Beijing-Shijiazhuang (→ S)




The nine lines form the first phase of an eventual 3,453 km network serving a conurbation of around 130 million inhabitants.
There is also the Tianjin-Yujiapu line (45 km) inaugurated on 09/20/2015 although it is for 350 km/h.


*Guangzhou: Pearl River Delta Metropolitan Region Intercity Railway System*
93 07/01/2011 Guangzhou South- Zhuhai North (→ S)
71 07/01/2011 Xiaolan-Xinhui (→ SW) 
23 31/12/2012 Zhuhai North-Zhuhai (→ S)
25 30/12/2015 Shenzhen North-Futian
97 30/03/2016 Dongguan-Huizhou (E → E)
82 30/03/2016 Foshan West (W of Guangzhou)-Zhaoqing (→ W)



*Wuhan*: 
92 28/12/2013 Wuhan-Xianning South (→ S)
85 18/06/2014 Wuhan-Huangshi (→ SE)
65 18/06/2014 Wuhan-Huanggang East (→ E)
62 01/12/2016 Hankou-Xiaogan (→ NW)



*Changsha*
98 26/12/2016 Changsha-Zhuzhou/Xiangtan (→ SE / SW)



*Zhengzhou*
50 17/12/2014 Zhengzhou East-Songchenglu (Kaifeng) (→ E)
78 26/06/2015 Nanyangzhai-Jiaozuo (→ NW)
30 31/12/2015 Zhengzhou East-Zhengzhou Xingzheng Airport (→ S)
There are 14 lines operating, under construction or planned around Zhengzhou.



Also interesting are these areas with many lines:

*Chengdú-Lichuan*



*Shanghai*


----------



## ccdk

*Workers who build the HSR lines*
http://news.ifeng.com/a/20170910/51941668_0.shtml


----------



## tjrgx

*High-speed rail trips get easier as network expands*

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2017-09/11/content_31837680.htm

Passengers can now reach most of China's major cities by bullet train, thanks to a network that includes linkages of a number of rail routes, as well as efficient major transfer hubs.

According to China Railway Corp, the national rail operator, direct high-speed train services have been arranged between cities with a large number of passengers, including Beijing-Kunming, Harbin-Shanghai and Chengdu-Guangzhou. Those direct services link big cities in different regions by taking more than one rail route.

Service between Dalian, Liaoning province, and Xi'an, Shaanxi province, involves eight high-speed rail routes that link 18 medium-size and large cities.

Running the network is no easy task. A high-speed rail route must not only carry out bullet train services running only on a single line but also on multiple lines.

The major transfer hub design allows easy transfers to other bullet trains. Passengers can make travel plans and buy connected tickets in advance. When they arrive at the transfer station, they can use a transfer gateway to board the next service, with no need to exit the gate and enter again. The major transfer hub design offsets the lack of direct service in some areas, providing more convenient travel choices.

Lanzhou West station, the major transfer hub linking the Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region with the rest of China, is expected to receive more than 5,000 transfer passengers a day, said Wang Jian, the deputy head of the station. The Baoji-Lanzhou rail route opened in July, and Wang estimates daily passengers will reach 25,000. The route links Lanzhou with the high-speed rail network.

No direct service links Xinjiang with most cities beyond Lanzhou. A passenger from Beijing can take a direct service to Lanzhou and then transfer at Lanzhou West station to Xinjiang.

China's high-speed rail network has surpassed 20,000 kilometers, spanning all provincial level regions except Tibet and the Ningxia Hui autonomous region. Hub cities are scattered around the country and linked by the high-speed network.

The world's longest high-speed rail service in operation is the 2,760-kilometer Beijing-Kunming service, according to China Railway Corp. Beijing has a distinct spring, summer, fall and winter, whereas Kunming has been called "the spring city" because the weather never gets very cold.

Like the Beijing-Kunming service, departure and arrival cities are different, requiring a different model of bullet train to adjust to diverse local environment.

In the northeastern region's winter, when the lowest temperature can hit -40 C, bullet trains need to adjust. In the northwest region's deserts, featuring strong winds and sandstorms, such as along the Lanzhou-Xinjiang line, bullet trains have stormproof designs.

According to a plan released by the National Development and Reform Commission in July 2016, China will expand the high-speed rail network to 30,000 km by 2020, linking 80 percent of major cities. By 2030, the network will link all cities with populations of more than 500,000.

China's high-speed rail network stretched 22,000 kilometers as of 2016, accounting for 65 percent of the world's total high-speed railway.

The world's longest bullet train service reaches 2,760 kilometers from Beijing to Kunming, Yunnan province.

The world's longest continuous high-speed rail track reaches 2,298 kilometers between Beijing and Guangzhou, Guangdong province.


----------



## tjrgx

*First PPP financing deal signed for China's high-speed railway*

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/11/c_136601502.htm

First PPP financing deal signed for China's high-speed railway

HANGZHOU, Sept. 11 (Xinhua) -- China's first public-private partnership (PPP) funded high-speed railway saw its financing contract signed on Monday.

Fosun Group leads the consortium of eight private firms that hold 51 percent stake in the Hangzhou-Shaoxing-Taizhou project. State-owned China Railway, Zhejiang Communications Investment Group, and local government hold the rest.

The 269-km railway project is estimated to cost 44.9 billion yuan (6.9 billion U.S. dollars). Construction will take four years.

The share-holders will be responsible for managing the railway for 30 years before they hand it to the government for free.

Fang Jianhong, executive president of Sunvision Equity Investment and Management Co, a Fosun subsidiary, said the fees to be charged on railway users and the government's viability gap funding scheme will help private investors get stable returns from the project.

Officials with Zhejiang Provincial Development and Reform Commission said the project will herald a new era for railway project financing and play an exemplary role.

China has been redoubling its efforts to build the world's most extensive and sophisticated railway network. By 2020, China will have 150,000 km railway including 30,000 km high-speed railway, according to the government's plan.


----------



## saiho

tjrgx said:


> http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/11/c_136601502.htm
> 
> First PPP financing deal signed for China's high-speed railway
> 
> HANGZHOU, Sept. 11 (Xinhua) -- China's first public-private partnership (PPP) funded high-speed railway saw its financing contract signed on Monday.
> 
> Fosun Group leads the consortium of eight private firms that hold 51 percent stake in the Hangzhou-Shaoxing-Taizhou project. State-owned China Railway, Zhejiang Communications Investment Group, and local government hold the rest.
> 
> The 269-km railway project is estimated to cost 44.9 billion yuan (6.9 billion U.S. dollars). Construction will take four years.
> 
> The share-holders will be responsible for managing the railway for 30 years before they hand it to the government for free.
> 
> Fang Jianhong, executive president of Sunvision Equity Investment and Management Co, a Fosun subsidiary, said the fees to be charged on railway users and the government's viability gap funding scheme will help private investors get stable returns from the project.
> 
> Officials with Zhejiang Provincial Development and Reform Commission said the project will herald a new era for railway project financing and play an exemplary role.
> 
> China has been redoubling its efforts to build the world's most extensive and sophisticated railway network. By 2020, China will have 150,000 km railway including 30,000 km high-speed railway, according to the government's plan.


Alignment


----------



## tjrgx

*Beijing-Zhangjiakou HSR for 2022 Olympic Winter Games makes first big step*






The Beijing-Zhangjiakou Intercity Railway for the 2022 Olympic Winter Games took a step forward on Sunday, as construction workers swiveled two sections of the bridge, over 3,503 meters long, together, shortening the travel time between Beijing and Zhangjiakou from 3.5 hours to one hour.


----------



## ccdk

*China begins to restore 350 kmh bullet train*
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/21/c_136626345.htm










BEIJING, Sept. 21 (Xinhua) -- China on Thursday increased the maximum speed of bullet trains on the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway to 350 kilometers per hour, six years after it was reduced to 300 kmh.

A bullet train named Fuxing (meaning "rejuvenation" in Chinese), which will travel at the new high speed, departed Beijing South Railway Station at 9:00 a.m. for Shanghai.
The speed increase will cut the Beijing-Shanghai journey to 4 hours and 28 minutes.
Starting Thursday, 14 Fuxing trains will run in both directions between Beijing and Shanghai at a maximum speed of 350 kilometers per hour.









"These trains are so popular that the tickets for today already sold out a week ago," said Huang Xin, an official with the China Railway Corporation, on Thursday.
Connecting the Chinese capital with the major financial and trade hub, the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway is one of the busiest in the country, carrying more than 100 million passengers a year.

China has the world's longest high-speed rail network, with 22,000 kilometers in operation so far.


----------



## ccdk




----------



## tjrgx

*China begins to restore 350 kmh bullet train*

http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2017-09/21/c_1121703717.htm


----------



## tjrgx

*New high-speed railway line opens in China*

NANCHANG - Operation of a new high-speed railway line started Thursday, linking two major railway lines in China.

The Wuhan-Jiujiang line, connecting Hubei's provincial capital Wuhan and Jiujiang city in East China's Jiangxi province, stretches 224 km, with 17 stations along the line.

Currently, there are 26 round trips available on the line each day, including eight high-speed round trips, said an official with the Nanchang railway bureau.

The line links the Beijing-Guangzhou and Beijing-Jiujiang high-speed railway lines, helping to cut travel time from Jiangxi province to major cities like Beijing and Guangzhou.

It now takes only six hours and 17 minutes to travel from Nanchang, capital of Jiangxi, to Beijing, compared with eight hours in the past.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

ccdk said:


> *China begins to restore 350 kmh bullet train*
> http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/21/c_136626345.htm
> BEIJING, Sept. 21 (Xinhua) -- China on Thursday increased the maximum speed of bullet trains on the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway to 350 kilometers per hour, six years after it was reduced to 300 kmh.
> 
> A bullet train named Fuxing (meaning "rejuvenation" in Chinese), which will travel at the new high speed, departed Beijing South Railway Station at 9:00 a.m. for Shanghai.
> The speed increase will cut the Beijing-Shanghai journey to 4 hours and 28 minutes.
> Starting Thursday, 14 Fuxing trains will run in both directions between Beijing and Shanghai at a maximum speed of 350 kilometers per hour.


Actually, the fastest train Beijing-Shanghai is G7, leaving 19:00, arriving 23:24.
In the direction Beijing-Shanghai the trains that are faster than the previous top time 4:48 are
G5 7:00 4:34 11:34
G1 9:00 4:28 13:28
G13 10:00 4:28 14:28
G3 14:00 4:28 18:28
G17 15:00 4:28 19:28
G7 19:00 4:24 23:24
G9 19:05 4:34 23:39


----------



## foxmulder

Has anyone here been on it yet? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq3R_49sMoQ

350km/h is back. I was off with my guess only by 4 years.. lol.


----------



## Oasis-Bangkok

00048e88 by Jean Bosco SIBOMANA, on Flickr


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## tjrgx

*Xi'an-Chengdu railway to come on stream within 2017*

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/22/c_136630300.htm









^^
A test high-speed train pulls into the Foping Station on the Xi'an-Chengdu railway in Foping County, northwest China's Shaanxi Province, Sept. 20, 2017. The 643-km Xi'an-Chengdu railway, which links Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province, and Chengdu, capital of southwest China's Sichuan Province, will come on stream within this year. By then, trains will run at a designed speed of 250 km per hour, slashing travel time between the two cities from 16 hours to three hours. (Xinhua/Tang Zhenjiang)









^^A test high-speed train pulls into the Epanggong Station on the Xi'an-Chengdu railway in Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province, Sept. 20, 2017.

















^^Photo taken on Sept. 21, 2017 shows the Yangxian West Station on the Xi'an-Chengdu railway in Hanzhong City, northwest China's Shaanxi Province.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^


tjrgx said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They are also testing new trains:cheers:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

tjrgx said:


> http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/22/c_136630300.htm
> 
> ^^
> A test high-speed train pulls into the Foping Station on the Xi'an-Chengdu railway in Foping County, northwest China's Shaanxi Province, Sept. 20, 2017. The 643-km Xi'an-Chengdu railway, which links Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province, and Chengdu, capital of southwest China's Sichuan Province, will come on stream within this year. By then, trains will run at a designed speed of 250 km per hour, slashing travel time between the two cities from 16 hours to three hours. (Xinhua/Tang Zhenjiang)


At present, the fastest train Beijing-Xian, G87, takes 4:23 via Zhengzhou. The fastest train Beijing-Chengdu, G309, goes via Yichang and takes 14:46.
When Xian-Chengdu high speed railway shall open, what shall be the travel time Beijing-Chengdu?


----------



## tjrgx

*How Faster Trains Draw China’s Cities Ever Closer*

http://www.sixthtone.com/news/1000893/how-faster-trains-draw-chinas-cities-ever-closer

Thursday’s 8:01 a.m. train from Nanjing to Beijing was the start of a new era for China’s high-speed rail network. The string of cars darted north at 350 kilometers per hour — the world’s highest operating speed — for the first time since 2011, when a railway corruption scandal led to a 300 kph cap.

For now, only the 14 high-speed trains that run on the railway between Beijing and Shanghai will see speed increases. Throughout history, the railroad between China’s two biggest cities has been at the frontier of fast. Since the first large-scale speed increases in 1997, the time it takes to go from Beijing to Shanghai has been reduced from nearly seventeen hours to around four and a half hours. Other cities in eastern China, too, are now just a few hours away from the capital.









(Travel times between Beijing and the provincial capitals of East China, relative to other provincial capitals (gray lines). By Qin Zhaoying and Liu Chang/Sixth Tone)

Over the past decade, most time reductions have come from the large-scale expansion of China’s high-speed rail network. By the end of 2016, the total operating length of China’s high-speed rail system had reached 22,000 kilometers — long enough to stretch halfway around the world.










As a result, traveling from Beijing to far-flung cities across the country has become less time-consuming. Guangzhou in the south, for example, is now much “closer” to the capital, as are other cities that lie along the track.









(Travel times between Beijing and cities on the Beijing-Guangzhou line, relative to provincial capitals not along that route (gray lines). By Qin Zhaoying and Liu Chang/Sixth Tone)

Relative to other parts of the country, travel to Northeast China has improved the least. Development of high-speed railways has been slower in this region, and rail travel was better there to begin with, in part due to colonial powers Russia and Japan.









(Travel times between Beijing and the provincial capitals of Northeast China, relative to other provincial capitals (gray lines). By Qin Zhaoying and Liu Chang/Sixth Tone)

In 1949, the year the People’s Republic of China was founded, traveling from Beijing to Zhengzhou about 600 kilometers to the south, took 10 hours longer than traveling from Beijing to Shenyang — an equal distance to the north. Now, however, a trip to Zhengzhou takes just two and a half hours, while traveling to Shenyang takes four.

































(Travel times between Beijing and China’s provincial capitals, grouped by distance from Beijing. By Qin Zhaoying and Liu Chang/Sixth Tone)

All graphical data from “National Train Timetable of China” (1959-2016) and “Train Timetable, Vol. 4” (Nov. 15, 1949).

Editor: Kevin Schoenmakers.


----------



## tjrgx

*Scenery of high-speed rail networks in south China's Guangxi*

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/25/c_136636152.htm


----------



## KavirajG

The level and extent of high speed railway development in China is simply mind-blowing! :cheers:

Any update or recent development on the proposed link to Moscow?


----------



## ccdk

*Trip Report on the new sleeper train*


----------



## Oasis-Bangkok

00048ffb by Jean Bosco SIBOMANA, on Flickr


----------



## KavirajG




----------



## tjrgx

*Railway linking Shangqiu, Hefei, Hangzhou under construction*

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/28/c_136644999.htm









^^The Shanghehang high-speed railway is under construction in Huzhou, east China's Zhejiang Province, Sept. 27, 2017. The 793.4-kilometer railway will link Shangqiu in central China's Henan Province, Hefei, capital of east China's Anhui Province, and Hangzhou, capital of Zhejiang.


----------



## tjrgx

*Track laying work completed at Liaoning section of Beijing-Shenyang HSR On Sept 28, 2017*

https://www.toutiao.com/a6470744345540608270/


----------



## lechevallierpatrick

It is just amazing to see what the People's Republic of China has achieved in matter of railways within the last 10 years (I am not Chinese....).Not to mention what they have done in Africa (Ethiopia,Kenya....).


----------



## tjrgx

*Aerial view of largest high-speed train maintenance base in central China*


----------



## abcpdo

ccdk said:


> *Trip Report on the new sleeper train*




This is a true innovation in passenger comfort. This is, to my knowledge, the only high density sleeper configuration with one person occupancy per “room”. The privacy of an amtrak roomette... at economy prices. This could seriously disrupt the low cost red eye flying market...


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## X666

abcpdo said:


> ....the privacy of an amtrak roomette... at economy prices. This could seriously disrupt the low cost red eye flying market...


Disagree somewhat - Amtrak's Roomette has a lot more space but privacy & peace and quiet is far better with a physical door to close.


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## abcpdo

X666 said:


> Disagree somewhat - Amtrak's Roomette has a lot more space but privacy & peace and quiet is far better with a physical door to close.



Indeed... which is why I only said privacy. Privacy as in nobody can look at you from outside, which I think is equivalent to the roomette. Peace and quiet is worse, but that’s always the case in such a crowded country.


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## tjrgx

*Fuzhou-Xiamen 350kph HSR starts construction on Sept. 30th, 2017*


----------



## kunming tiger

ｅｓｔ　ｔｉｍｅ　ｏｆ　ｃｏｍｐｌｅｔｉｏｎ?


----------



## tjrgx

kunming tiger said:


> ｅｓｔ　ｔｉｍｅ　ｏｆ　ｃｏｍｐｌｅｔｉｏｎ?


2022


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## KavirajG

China is in another league!


----------



## General Huo

General Huo said:


> Newly built railway from Jiujiang-Jingdezhen-Quzhou. It will open to traffic in Nov 2017.
> 
> This is the video shot of whole route by drone.


The speed is 200km/h.


----------



## xinxingren

ccdk said:


> *Trip Report on the new sleeper train*


21st century 硬卧, they've gotta keep the speed down for passenger comfort - that is in terms of departure and arrival times. Of course the "dining" car offered slim pickins: everyone takes their own noodle pot & pickled chicken feet. I wonder if we'll see many more of these disrupting the nighttime track maintenance crews.


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## chornedsnorkack

xinxingren said:


> 21st century 硬卧, they've gotta keep the speed down for passenger comfort - that is in terms of departure and arrival times.


Beijing-Shanghai at 1318 km is too short for a high speed overnight trip. How does Beijing-Guangzhou compare?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ What what is the distance traveled by the fastest trains between Beijingnan and Shanghai Hongqiao? 
In the wikipedia in English it put (until a few days ago) 1302,890 km, now: 1302 and in Chinese 1318 km.
where can you look?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## ccdk




----------



## ScientisT.bass

A little bit chessy. But that is okay.


----------



## ccdk

*HSR Train open day in Hong Kong*
http://finance.ifeng.com/a/20171007/15710761_0.shtml#p=5


----------



## hkskyline

October 6, 2017 
*China pays a high price for world's fastest train*
Breakneck pace of railway expansion leads to mountain of debt
Nikkei Asian Review _Excerpt_

TOKYO -- When China recently reclaimed the title of having the world fastest train, it might have been a moment of national celebration. Instead, there were worries about whether the cost was worth it.

The "Fuxing" (rejuvenation) high-speed train service between Beijing and Shanghai returned to operating at 350kph on Sept. 21. For six years, it had been limited to 300kph following a crash in 2011 when two high-speed trains collided, killing 40 people and injuring about 200.

Soon after the Beijing-Shanghai line returned to full speed, the internet began buzzing with rumors that train fares would also rise in line with the higher speed.

Perhaps people would have been more enthusiastic -- as the country heads into the Communist Party's congress in October -- if concerns were not so great about the mountain of debt that the country's ambitious railway program has built up.

China Railway Group -- the state-owed company that operates high-speed trains -- now groans with over $700 billion in debt.

Speculation is rife that fares must rise to service the debt. High-speed train fares for the route between Shanghai and Shenzhen did in fact rise 20-60% in April.

But there has been no fare increase for the Beijing-Shanghai route yet. First- and second-class fares have stayed at 933 yuan ($140) and 553 yuan, respectively.

More : https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Ec...a-pays-a-high-price-for-world-s-fastest-train


----------



## Norge78

*High speed travel time from Guangzhou to HK: 48 minutes:cheers:*

A single trip from Guangzhou to Hong Kong will be reduced to 48 minutes when the high-speed rail connecting Hong Kong, Shenzhen and Guangzhou opens in 2018.

The nine bullet trains manufactured by China Railway Rolling Corporation (CRRC) for the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL) were delivered to Hong Kong early last month, Securities Times reported.

XRL is a high-speed railway that connects Beijing with Hong Kong via Guangzhou and Shenzhen.

Spanning 26 kilometers, the construction of the final phase of XRL, which connects Shenzhen to Hong Kong, was completed on Nov 18, 2016. It has a design speed of 250 kilometers per hour.

It is scheduled to be open to traffic by the third quarter of 2018, according to Deng Weiyong, general manager of the high speed rail section of Mass Transit Railway, HK's rail company.

The Guangzhou–Shenzhen section of XRL starts at Guangzhou South Railway Station and ends at Shenzhen Futian Railway Station. It went into operation on Dec 26, 2011 and is one of the busiest railways in China.

With a design speed of 350 km/h, it only takes 29 to 50 minutes for people to commute between the two cities, depending on the number of stops.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2017-11/01/content_33982188.htm


*Bombardier should consider rail deal with China's CRRC: Caisse CEO*

TORONTO (Reuters) - Bombardier Inc (BBDb.TO) should look at all options for its transportation business including partnering with China’s state-owned CRRC (601766.SS), 
one of Bombardier’s biggest shareholders said on Wednesday. “I think we have to look at everything. Every opportunity that comes up ought to be looked at,” 
Caisse de depot et placement du Quebec [CDPDA.UL] Chief Executive Officer Michael Sabia told reporters when asked about a deal with CRRC.

Germany’s Siemens (SIEGn.DE) and France’s Alstom (ALSO.PA) said they are merging their train manufacturing operations in September. The move will leave Bombardier competing in a market dominated by CRRC, the world’s largest train maker, and a combined *Siemens Alstom* group as the second biggest.

Sabia said Bombardier should consider a partnership with CRRC rather than selling the business to the Chinese.

“I think the transportation business is a long-run asset of Bombardier. I don’t see an opportunity or reason to go down the sale path,” he said.

French Finance Minister Bruno Le Maire has said that the combination of Siemens and Alstom could be expanded to include Bombardier and create a business capable of competing with CRRC but Sabia said such a combination would be difficult.

“A three-party dance is a complicated dance. It’s hard not to step on people’s toes,” he said.

“If a door opened and there were an interesting transaction to be done, would we have any objections in principle? No. But those are very difficult to get done.”

The Caisse, which invests on behalf of workers and retirees in the Canadian province of Quebec, took a 30 percent stake in Bombardier’s money-generating rail division in November 2015.

Sabia welcomed an agreement last month for Airbus (AIR.PA) to take a majority stake in Bombardier’s CSeries jetliner program, securing the plane’s future and giving the Canadian firm a possible way out of a damaging trade dispute with Boeing (BA.N) in the U.S. market.

“I think the Airbus transaction was a very positive step. I think it does stabilize the company and I think it gives it a much more powerful platform to continue the development of the CSeries,” he said.

The deal , however, will see Bombardier lose control of a project it developed at a cost of $6 billion.

“The sales machine that is Airbus is something that’s very important in giving that aircraft access to the markets that it needs to have in order for it to be a big commercial success,” Sabia said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...eal-with-chinas-crrc-caisse-ceo-idUSKBN1D15NP


----------



## hkskyline

ccdk said:


> Alright, the whole discussion stemmed from a news piece in a Japanese media without any valid sources and full of "speculations". Granted, the debt problem for CRC cannot be overlooked. Yet you brought the discussion up a notch by assuming the Chinese gov. and policy makers will somehow decide to go against the current HSR development because the debt issue, which might subsequently lead to the busting of CRC.
> 
> If, as you argued, the Chinese gov. is really that irresponsible and created one after another bad projects on the national level, and as soon as they see problems, they will just ditch it and projects after projects will become blackholes, the gov. would have already gone busted. In addition, if the policy makers already saw the debt problem, why do they still making plans to extend the HSR network to 30K by 2020?
> 
> I am looking at the issue from another angle, if the CRC is trying to reform and shed it's unprofitable business units, isn't that a good thing in the long term and will make the CRC more competitive? Actually that's the exact purpose of the merger between CSR and CNR, to be more competitive on the international market!
> 
> As for the property market, as many forumers pointed out, it's private sector driven by demand. The gov. tried multiple attempts to curb the housing price from rising further but each time it only worked for a very brief period of time, hence I do not believe the gov. policy is in favor of the property market. China is in a rapid urbanization period thus the demand for housing is quite high in the cities, the gov. is trying to restrict housing price as a way to help its people, but this is a dilemma.
> 
> HSR development is infra work and directed by policies, and I do not see any policies against this development. You can compare on the policy level but not between policy and market.


I haven't predicted an implosion, but noted the government policy support is not perpetual, and can reverse any time as China's development progresses to the next stage. We both agree the ballooning debt load is not sustainable.

While the economic impact of the HSR network has been tremendous, the business case is highly questionable. China Railway Corporation was indeed restructured recently to make it more internationally competitive, while it continues to raise funds through bond offerings to overseas investors, further reducing its reliance on government subsidies (hopefully). 

So while there are plans to expand the network, at the same time there is restructuring happening behind the scenes. The government knows the status quo is not sustainable. These are 2 separate things that don't cause and effect each other, but some forumers think the expansion strategy is a safety net that all is good, fine and rosy. That is simply not the case upon a further deep dive into the company.

Shedding unprofitable units is a great thing, but will that make these segments profitable? Who will support them going forward? If these areas go under in the end, CRC will inevitably be impacted negatively. The whole supply and demand chain can't afford to lose its parts.

China's property sector is directly driven by government policy to use real estate to fuel economic growth. It is incorrect to assume it is entirely private sector only on the basis of the developers. The whole industry is supply, not demand-driven. That's why there are so many empty cities. The biggest problem is there are insufficient investment products for savings, so speculative money pours into real estate (hence the comment in the recent party congress), and now government policy has reversed to no longer rely on real estate to fuel growth. In fact, slower growth is no longer frowned upon.



ccdk said:


> Also, some posts ago you cited an article from China Daily, which clearly mentioned the profit rose >10% for CRC, but debt is going up at a slightly faster pace than profitability. You are clearly contradicting yourself. There is no point to argue for the sake of argue.


Are you referring to this article : https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-08/25/content_31082631.htm

Revenue is not the same as profit. 

_CRC saw its total debt swell to 4.72 trillion yuan ($708.5 billion) in the first quarter in 2017, up 14 percent year-on-year.

It generated 224.5 billion yuan in revenue between January and March, up 11.16 percent year-on-year. Of this, freight transport generated 77.4 billion yuan in operating revenue, up 19.41 percent year-on-year, the first uptick since 2013, while passenger transport services made 76 billion yuan in revenue, up 11.37 percent._


----------



## tjrgx

*Beijing-Shenyang high-speed railway under construction*

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-11/02/c_136721777.htm

Workers are seen at the construction site of a bridge over Chengde-Tangshan highway, a key project of Hebei section of Beijing-Shenyang high-speed railway, in north China's Hebei Province, Nov. 1, 2017. With a designed speed of 350 km per hour, the railway is expected to slash travel time between Beijing and Shenyang to 2.5 hours.


----------



## tjrgx

*Zhengpantai tunnel construction at Beijing-Zhangjiakou HSR*

12.974km

http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2017-11/02/c_1121897154.htm


----------



## ccdk

hkskyline said:


> While the economic impact of the HSR network has been tremendous, the business case is highly questionable.[/I]


Questionable? care to explain?

For CRC, I don't see conflicts undertaking restructuring and HSR network expansion at the same time. They are reallocating resources to prioritized projects. Suppose, they planned 30K km HSR network and they complete that target by 2020, then from 2020 on, there will be no major investment in HSR and the focus will be debt payment, operation and maintenance of the network. The outlook will be much less worrisome. There is no perpetual gov policy support to invest nonsensically in HSR. The gov had a target, and when their target is completed, they will move on and carry out the next project.

Has the debt for CRC reached a critical level that could lead to bankruptcy? I'd say not. If HSR is isolated as a separate business lasting a hundred years, it's perfectly reasonable to invest heavily in the first 10 years to lay the foundation for the business, then manage the business to grow and turn profitable. If your own funding is not sufficient, you borrow through different channels.

I'd worry less and be more optimistic.


----------



## ccdk

I wonder why ballastless tracks were not used for some of the latest projects?



ccdk said:


> Near Zhengzhou East station


ChongQing West Station


----------



## hkskyline

ccdk said:


> Questionable? care to explain?
> 
> For CRC, I don't see conflicts undertaking restructuring and HSR network expansion at the same time. They are reallocating resources to prioritized projects. Suppose, they planned 30K km HSR network and they complete that target by 2020, then from 2020 on, there will be no major investment in HSR and the focus will be debt payment, operation and maintenance of the network. The outlook will be much less worrisome. There is no perpetual gov policy support to invest nonsensically in HSR. The gov had a target, and when their target is completed, they will move on and carry out the next project.
> 
> Has the debt for CRC reached a critical level that could lead to bankruptcy? I'd say not. If HSR is isolated as a separate business lasting a hundred years, it's perfectly reasonable to invest heavily in the first 10 years to lay the foundation for the business, then manage the business to grow and turn profitable. If your own funding is not sufficient, you borrow through different channels.
> 
> I'd worry less and be more optimistic.


A few posts back I commented expansion into rural areas (Lanzhou-Urumqi) wasn't well thought-out and will likely remain loss-making for years. 

Looking at the financials, the debt to EBITDA ratio is ... scary. So how to convince a bank that the loan and its interest are repayable in the long run? Luckily, the state subsidies are still flowing through. But refinancing their international bonds will likely get much more expensive, not just because of this reason, but also because global rates are rising.

I'm not saying an implosion is imminent. The international ratings agencies still have them as investment-grade. I'm highlighting the uncertain nature of government support. There are many recent examples of policy U-turns and surprises in Chinese financial markets to make everyone a bit more cynical these days.


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## ccdk

Have you seen many profit-making public infrastructure projects? The purpose of infra projects are to benefit people and brings wider economic benefits to the society. As long as they are self sufficient it's fine, making money is not their primary purpose. 

Also, I see Lanzhou-Urumqi line being a long term profit generator rather than a loss-making line. With Russia pushing the high speed connection with China in the hope of establishing high speed freight service to Europe. Once all dots are connected along the HSR route to Europe, Lanzhou-Urumqi line could well benefit from it.(http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/rzd-develops-plans-for-high-speed-rail-freight.html)


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## hkskyline

ccdk said:


> Have you seen many profit-making public infrastructure projects? The purpose of infra projects are to benefit people and brings wider economic benefits to the society. As long as they are self sufficient it's fine, making money is not their primary purpose.
> 
> Also, I see Lanzhou-Urumqi line being a long term profit generator rather than a loss making line. With Russia pushing the high speed connection with China, if China decides to turn the Lanzhou-Urumqi line into a passenger/freight line and ship goods along the route, it could well benefit from it.(http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/rzd-develops-plans-for-high-speed-rail-freight.html)


Well, the financials show the current network is not self-sufficient. The fact that it is funded through loans and bonds and not directly from the public purse means they can't be so loss-making for such a long time and is not purely a public infrastructure project but with private sector elements.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/econ...atise-one-its-crown-jewels-state-rail-company

The link to Russia is not going to materialize any time soon. Urumqi is still a long way to Kazakhstan, which is also a long way to Russia from there. Besides, if for freight, there is no need to use an expensive HSR line. Just run conventional rail and save a few billion.


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## ccdk

I fail to understand why your conclusion comes so easily. Why is there no need for HSR freight service? The air freight is so expensive and the conventional freight train is so time consuming. Currently it takes between 15-18 days for products to be shipped from China to Eu countries. If they can achieve 7-day or shorter shipping time, it could be a very competitive alternative.

Making up some points just to defend or prove yourself is not at the best interest of discussion. / Peace out


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## hkskyline

ccdk said:


> I fail to understand why your conclusion comes so easily. Why is there no need for HSR freight service? The air freight is so expensive and the conventional freight train is so time consuming. Currently it takes between 15-18 days for products to be shipped from China to Eu countries. If they can achieve 7-day or shorter shipping time, it could be a very competitive alternative.
> 
> Making up some points just to defend or prove yourself is not at the best interest of discussion. / Peace out


There has never been any policy discussion of HSR freight travel. If you found any, share it here. If cargo is in a hurry to go to Europe, fly it. It doesn't make sense to build expensive G/D-speed rails through the desert and steppes to reach Europe let alone convince all the countries west of Xinjiang to play along. 

The fact that cargo goes by train or ship means they are not time-critical. Perishables would never have made it by these methods, and would still not even if they ride HSR in the grand scheme of things. Do you know how far is Urumqi from Berlin? 5300km on a straight line. It wouldn't take rocket science to figure out the cost of any HSR link over that sort of distance would be astronomical. Not for a 7-day savings.


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## DCUrbanist

ccdk said:


> I fail to understand why your conclusion comes so easily. Why is there no need for HSR freight service? The air freight is so expensive and the conventional freight train is so time consuming. Currently it takes between 15-18 days for products to be shipped from China to Eu countries. If they can achieve 7-day or shorter shipping time, it could be a very competitive alternative.
> 
> Making up some points just to defend or prove yourself is not at the best interest of discussion. / Peace out


Just throwing my hat in the ring to say that high speed freight is a very challenging proposition logistically and financially. The economics have not panned out in the past; specifically, France tried it, and the only product they could make the economics work for was mail service. Why? A few reasons.

1. *Train physics.* You just can't have the same kinds of potentially uneven loads you can with slower trains. The kind of product that can withstand those forces without also crashing an HSR train when it might shift around is pretty limited.
2. *Existing high speed rail infrastructure doesn't connect industrial centers, it connects dense population centers. As such, it is already better equipped for transporting (some) consumer goods.* For mail, this worked to their advantage, as it's a consumer product that is directly connected to population density. Furthermore, it is pretty expensive on a shipping/postage-per-kilogram level, which is also why it specifically worked. Other types of consumer products would just be too bulky to ship competitively with costly (though faster) HSR.
3. *For lots of other industry, HSR just doesn't go where they need it yet, and building that would be costly.* Tons of industry flourishes in places where lots of people _aren't_ teeming in the immediate environs and requires a pretty dispersed land use. The cost of getting those products to/from their origins and destinations would cut into the time/cost benefit of a faster train pretty quickly.
4. *Containerization has revolutionized shipping time/cost, and it simply wasn't designed for HSR compatibility.* It's way cheaper (and possibly faster) to remain containerized and take a bit longer than to de-containerize for a faster train.

Some of these challenges could be fixed, but others are pretty immutable or immediately present additional problems. For example, adding in slower trains on HSR lines to make freight easier immediately cuts capacity. There could be a niche market for small consumer goods that are costly to produce and transport already, but we're likely not looking at transforming train freight anytime soon.

These points are largely based off of the conversations folks had when Hyperloop folks recently suggested that their technology could be used for freight, since most of those problems already existed for HSR in France decades ago. This article by Alon Levy about Hyperloop Freight is a great resource that explains most of these problems.


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## Shenkey

I think most people here forget that train prices are rising or will soon start to rise, as ordinary citizens earn more.

This will greatly increase EBITDA and make it easier to repay loans.

I do agree though with some users, that China is starting to construct high-speed rail to parts it does not need to and will not need to in the future, at least over 200km/h and this is incurring huge costs.

CRC on wiki says it has 1tn yuan revenue, which makes it €120bn 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railway

while EBITDA is scary, the 5tn yuan debt is manageable.


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## tigerleapgorge

tjrgx said:


> 12.974km
> http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2017-11/02/c_1121897154.htm


Any idea what those multi-armed machines are called? Looks sci fi.


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## tjrgx

tigerleapgorge said:


> Any idea what those multi-armed machines are called? Looks sci fi.


Tunnel jumbo drilling rig


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## hkskyline

Shenkey said:


> CRC on wiki says it has 1tn yuan revenue, which makes it €120bn
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railway
> 
> while EBITDA is scary, the 5tn yuan debt is manageable.


I don't think wiki is a good source for reliable data.

From their 2016 annual report, total revenues for the year reached only 224 billion RMB.

http://www.crrcgc.cc/g5251.aspx


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## RonnieR

ccdk said:


> Near Zhengzhou East station


Amazing....:cheers:


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## skyridgeline

Shenkey said:


> I think most people here forget that train prices are rising or will soon start to rise, as ordinary citizens earn more.
> 
> This will greatly increase EBITDA and make it easier to repay loans.
> 
> I do agree though with some users, that China is starting to construct high-speed rail to parts it does not need to and will not need to in the future, at least over 200km/h and this is incurring huge costs.
> 
> CRC on wiki says it has 1tn yuan revenue, which makes it €120bn
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railway
> 
> while EBITDA is scary, the 5tn yuan debt is manageable.





hkskyline said:


> I don't think wiki is a good source for reliable data.
> 
> From their 2016 annual report, total revenues for the year reached only 224 billion RMB.
> 
> http://www.crrcgc.cc/g5251.aspx



CRC and CRRC are two different entities :lol: .


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## hkskyline

Shouldn't the analysis be strictly on CRRC, which operates the high-speed trains? That's the entity making loans and issuing bonds for the high-speed expansion.


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## Norge78

*Bullet-Train Maker Puts Freight Plans Back on Track*

China’s leading train maker, CRRC Corp., has revived plans to develop high-speed freight trains at speeds of up to 250 kph (155 mph),





 
aiming to take advantage of a national network of tracks for bullet passenger trains.
Two such similar plans petered out in 2014 and 2015, either because of a lack of demand or due to miscommunications with China Railway Corp. (CRC), the nation’s railroad operator, according to sources close to the CRRC.
With the new plan, CRRC hopes to develop a new source of revenue with high-speed freight trains as China’s logistics industry grows more modern, one source close to the company told Caixin.
Because freight trains require fewer parts, they cost less to manufacture than passenger bullet trains, the source added.
CRRC has said that only high-valued cargo such as e-commerce deliveries, rather than bulk commodities like coal, will be transported over high-speed rail lines.
However, industry experts are skeptical about whether there is enough demand for high-speed freight services in a country where planes and trucks dominate the logistics industry. Railways account for only 20% of the country’s logistics traffic.
“Before making any decisions, CRRC should do more market research to figure out the costs. It also needs to work with CRC to determine which bullet-train lines to offer freight service on,” said Xu Yong of cecss.com, an online industry service provider.
Xu said it would be workable to run a freight service only on the busy Beijing-Shanghai and Beijing-Guangzhou lines.
Last month, sources from CRRC told Caixin that the company will shutter half of its freight-car manufacturing capacity to deal with excess capacity. CRRC currently operates 10 freight-car production subsidiaries with total annual production capacity of more than 80,000 vehicles.
In China, most freight trains run on rail lines designed for much slower speeds. The nation’s fastest freight trains, which were put into service starting in 2014, can run up to 160 kph.
The French have been running freight trains at 160 kph since 1984. In 2012, France and Germany unveiled freight trains that can travel at speeds up to 300 kph.
Contact reporter Mo Yelin ([email protected])

https://www.caixinglobal.com/2017-11-03/101165540.html










Probably in the next decades, this *transport *network in a *developing country* of *1.4 BILLION* People will not be even enough.. not to mention the pollution issues..

We're not talking about the dimensions of a very small fiscal paradise created by the West in China and I doubt that We built our Big infrastructures in Europe and North America, making them already profitable..

Anyway I agree that in a World full of Debt, even this Chinese infrastrucure debt, specially in the long term, should to be closely watched..


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## cheehg

I read all those 600 pages in two weeks. Great thread.


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## Gusiluz

*Cost per km of the lines*

^^ 600 pages in two weeks, wow :cheers: :banana: 
I hope that now you read every little while, it will be better for your health. :lol:

I have my own list with, in this case, the average speeds and the cost per km in €uros calculated with the change that was at the time of the announcement of its construction or, when they reported it, when it was inaugurated.
It is very dislocated and without order to group to put a single image and because the original has more data (previous and subsequent time and number of trains) and I had to remove columns.
In blue are the lines that are not yet in service.



And here, in another format, the lines under construction.

Route / Speed / Estimated date / Km / Situation

Harbin-Jiamusi (de 5:49 a 2 h) (12,07 M € mixta)	200	06/2018	343	13→N
Wuzhong (al Sur de Yinchuan)-Zhongwei (13,45 x km, no UIC)	250	31/08/2018	134,75	14
Xuzhou East-Huai'an-Yancheng (17,85 M €)	250	2019	316 UIC/314	04
New Beijing East-Baodi South-Tangshan (40,18/36,73 M €)	350 149/163	01 R
Wuhan Hankou-Xiangyang-Shiyan (17,92 M €) (no UIC)	350	2019	395/399	12 y R
Taiyuan-Zhengzhou (17,19 M €) o Jiaozou (358 km)	(no UIC)	2020	391	05
Ganzhou-Shenzhen (18,77 M €)	350	2020	436	03
Kazuo-Chifeng (2→O de Shenyang 14,39 M €)(no UIC)	250	2020	157,4	—
Hangzhou-Shaoxing-Taizhou (23,05 M €) (no UIC) 2021	269	11→01
Zhengzhou-Hangzhou (de 8 h 14 m a 3 h 40 m por 18,64 M €)	350	2021	818	Centro→SE
Zhengzhou-Xiangyang-Wanzhou (19,40 M €)	350	2022	785 (UIC)/818	05 y 12
Nanchang-Huangshan (21,70 M €)	350	2022	286	→NE
Yinchuan-Xi´an (18,29 M €) (no UIC) 618	07
Mudanjiang-Jiamusi HSL (13,08 M €) 375	13→N
Zhangjiajie-Jishou-Huaihua HSL (19,16 M €)	350 247	05


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## tjrgx

*Bullet train runs for trial operation on Yelang River Bridge in SW China*

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-01/12/c_136891142.htm









^^Photo taken on Jan. 11, 2018 shows the Yelang River Bridge at Tongzi County of Zunyi City, southwest China's Guizhou Province. The bridge is an important part of a railway connecting two major cities in southwest China, Chongqing Municipality and Guiyang, capital of Guizhou. The bridge and the railway are both put into a test run. (Xinhua/Liu Chan)


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## ccdk

*Watch Out, Airlines. High Speed Rail Now Rivals Flying on Key Routes*
https://www.bloombergquint.com/busi...d-rail-now-rivals-flying-on-key-global-routes










(Bloomberg) -- Across Asia and Europe, high-speed rail is providing a competitive alternative to air travel on the same routes, in terms of price and the all-important barometer of time. Put that together with the environmental benefits that flow from not burning jet fuel, and staying on the ground begins to make more sense for travelers who would otherwise trudge to the airport.

Speedy trains and planes are generally competitive until your travel plans extend beyond 1,000 kilometers (621 miles), at which point travelers consider flying superior for time savings, according to an overview of academic research by the Journal of Advanced Transportation. But new technologies may push that boundary in the years and decades to come. The chart below gives examples of key global routes where the two are currently comparable.










“Travel time is critical for the competitiveness of different transport modes,” researchers from Beijing’s Beihang University and the University of South Florida in Tampa wrote last year, buttressing a 2014 European study (PDF) that found more air service on routes for which trains take longer. While this supports the theory that trains can supplant air travel if door-to-door time and price are equal or better, that doesn’t turn out to be the case in reality. It’s not a zero-sum game after all.In general, the advent of fast, affordable train service in China, Japan, South Korea and western Europe has eroded such preconceptions as to how airlines and railroads compete. The entry of high-speed rail in markets dominated by airlines doesn’t always lead to fewer available flights—there’s evidence that, in many places, affordably priced train tickets actually spur new travel demand, much the way ultra-low-cost airlines in Asia, Europe and the Americas have affected bargain fares. That helps both trains and planes.










The new rail industry is seeing its most vibrant growth in China, which also has the world’s largest high-speed network, the fastest trains and the greatest ambitions for future expansion. One of the world’s busiest routes, Beijing to Shanghai, features the new domestically built Fuxing high-speed train, now with a top allowed speed of 218 miles per hour (351 kilometers per hour). That speed increase cut the 775-mile (1,247 kilometer) trip to 4 hours, 28 minutes on a route that has about 100 million rail passengers annually, according to Chinese news service Xinhua.

Japan’s high-speed shinkansen, or bullet trains, date to the 1960s and have become a staple of domestic travel, with speeds of about 199 mph (320 km), making for a 2 1/2 hour trip between Tokyo and Osaka, one of the most heavily trafficked routes. That same city pairing, however, has hourly airline service by both of Japan’s largest carriers—with each using a mix of wide-body Boeing Co. 767s, 777s and 787s for the 70-minute flight. While adding station/airport dwell time and the time spent getting from city center to the platform/gate doesn’t change the result in this case, such calculations sometimes make the difference when it comes to travel time. 










In 2015, 910 million Chinese traveled by all forms of rail—more than twice the 415.4 million who flew, according to the journal article. Unsurprisingly, the future of train technology resides in China. The first magnetic-levitation, or maglev train, which can travel as fast as 267 mph (430 kph), operates in Shanghai; engineers are researching future maglev trains that could travel at a stunning 373 mph (600 kph), an achievement that could thoroughly upend the current dynamic between air and ground travel.










Over time, Chinese airlines and high-speed trains have generally evolved so that fares and service classes are comparable, said Yu Zhang, an assistant professor of civil and environmental engineering at the University of South Florida and one of the journal report’s authors. In their early days, Chinese high-speed rail operators sought to emulate airlines in terms of attendant training, with fares that were generally too high to spur much demand, she said. Since then, train fares have dropped.

“Air service is impacted, but we do not see a significant reduction of passengers, either,” Yu said of the Chinese market. “It’s really dependent on the particular route.”










In Europe, the Eurostar high-speed rail from London to Paris and Brussels served 10 million riders last year, the fourth since it first topped that mark. The service began in November 1994 and drew 2.9 million passengers the following year. Current Eurostar fares begin at 29 pounds ($39), down from initial fares of 79 pounds in the system’s early days. 

Again, the different modes of transport that might seem to be rivals for the same passengers are in many way complementary. Low-cost airlines focused on short-haul routes and European high-speed rail options that would seem to compete are generally not rivals, given their vast differences on other counts. The trains generally serve city centers, while the air carriers tend to use secondary airports further afield as a way to lower their costs.

On the Paris-Bordeaux line, high speed rail is “by far the most competitive travel offer with a real traffic growth of 70 percent since its launch in July,” the French railway SNCF said in an emailed statement. “In November, we reached 82 percent of the Paris-Bordeaux travel market share,” SNCF official Rachel Picard said. “This high speed benefits all customers, including professional travelers whose number has doubled compared to 2016.”










And what happened to the big airlines on the continent such as Air France-KLM? They have ceded traffic on the shorter routes to low-cost rivals, including Ryanair Holdings Plc and EasyJet Plc. Many major U.S. airlines are following suit, abandoning smaller regional jets and reducing service to less-populated cities.

“The way airlines think of trips that are short-haul has changed,” said Holly Reed, an executive with Texas Central Partners LLC, which is raising money to build a bullet train between Dallas and Houston.

By now, you may have noticed the absence of one large country from this discussion. After a century of neglect, U.S. transit infrastructure has more in common with the developing world than with China or Western Europe. While Asia rail systems measure their passengers in the hundreds of millions, in the U.S., Amtrak had 31.3 million riders in its 2016 fiscal year.

America’s fastest train, the Acela, travels on the Boston-New York-Washington corridor with a speed capability of only 150 mph (241 kph)—but the trains rarely exceed 100 mph (161 kph) due to congestion—and then only for short periods on aging tracks. With the rails often running parallel with the busy Interstate 95, it’s not uncommon to see cars outpacing locomotives.

Flight and train ticket prices are the lowest average prices including taxes for travel dates Prices that appeared at least twice per day were included. Flight ticket prices were obtained from Skyscanner in USD. Budget airlines were not considered. Train ticket prices were obtained from operator booking sites, except for train tickets in China which were from ctrip.com. Transit time is the fastest metro or commuter transportation to the airport, excluding airport express unless necessary. The cost of transit is the sum of all one-way tickets on the transit route. Transit times and costs were obtained from official transportation and operator websites, Google Maps and Baidu Maps. All prices not obtained in USD were converted. Ticket price research and conversion were performed on


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## chornedsnorkack

China´s high speed rail has a problem competing with accessibility, compared to airplanes and compared to Japanese or French HSR.

Unlike Japanese or French HSR, and like airports, CRH tends to not serve established stations in central cities, nor are new stations on old established transit routes. Rather the CRH stations are new, huge, in distant suburbs and hard to get to. This removes one advantage of CRH over air.


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## tjrgx

*Chongqing-Guiyang railway under trial run*

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-01/13/c_136893427.htm









^^Photo taken on Jan. 12, 2018 shows the Loushanguan South Railway Station, southwest China's Guizhou Province. A railway connecting two major cities in southwest China, Chongqing and Guiyang is under trial run. Designed for passenger trains running at a speed of 200 kilometers per hour, the railway will improve traffic between China's southwest and northwestern, eastern, southern areas. (Xinhua/Han Ye)









^^A bullet train runs on Chongqing-Guiyang railway near Zunyi, southwest China's Guizhou Province, Jan. 12, 2018.


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## saiho

chornedsnorkack said:


> China´s high speed rail has a problem competing with accessibility, compared to airplanes and compared to Japanese or French HSR.
> 
> Unlike Japanese or French HSR, and like airports, CRH tends to not serve established stations in central cities, nor are new stations on old established transit routes. Rather the CRH stations are new, huge, in distant suburbs and hard to get to. This removes one advantage of CRH over air.


CRH has an advantage over air because airports in China are even more distant. The only city I know off the top of my head where the airport is closer to the population centroid of a city than the main new high speed station is Xiamen and maybe Dalian and both those cities airport's days are numbered, as they are being moved quite far away from the city. Also there is Shanghai which has a tie (Hongqiao). Also the notion that CRH stations are new, inaccessible in distant suburbs is quite a myth in big cities. Most of the main stations in Teir I and II Chinese cities are in now in the urban area or have become new established city cores. The real competitor is in the Teir III and IV cities were the new railway stations are built really far away and urban growth is not that strong. However the competitor is not planes, its long distance buses.


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## Gusiluz

*Modal split between HST and plane*

Modal split between HST and plane, taking into account the time and average speed. Some data is something old, and I'm missing Korea.
China's data is also old, taken from a World Bank report. 





Any new information would be appreciated, if possible with its source.
Thanks!


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## Silly_Walks

^^

The high speed service Paris-Amsterdam is very popular, and nearly everyone I know from Amsterdam who travels to Paris, takes the train. 
I think the modal split % is still so low, because many Air France-KLM destinations first fly you to Paris CDG, where you can change aircraft for the next part of your journey.


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## xinxingren

ccdk said:


> *Watch Out, Airlines. High Speed Rail Now Rivals Flying on Key Routes*
> https://www.bloombergquint.com/busi...d-rail-now-rivals-flying-on-key-global-routes


I heard Bloomberg were sometimes a bit slack on accuracy, but Beijing-Shanghai HSR, even if you took a tricab to & from stations, and walked up 23 floors to your apartment, surely you could do better than 7 hours hno:


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## aquaticko

The most recent numbers I've seen for Korea are probably around 60% modal share for HSR from Seoul to Busan, but that was in 2008; I'd imagine it's higher now. By contrast, planes are down to about 20% (again, circa 2008).


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## ccdk

A real HSR fan 



































http://news.163.com/18/0115/21/D87KVJJR00018AOQ.html


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## cheehg

chornedsnorkack said:


> China´s high speed rail has a problem competing with accessibility, compared to airplanes and compared to Japanese or French HSR.
> 
> Unlike Japanese or French HSR, and like airports, CRH tends to not serve established stations in central cities, nor are new stations on old established transit routes. Rather the CRH stations are new, huge, in distant suburbs and hard to get to. This removes one advantage of CRH over air.


I agree some stations are too far from city center, such as Guangzhou south. most of the terminal stations are ok in China. some of them are actually very close to center, such as Beijing, Shenyang, Hangzhou, Ningbo, Shijiazhuang, Zhengzhou,etc. there are reasons HSR cannot enter the center stations. limited land and limited space for upgrade the old stations. If you know the old stations in China normally are very small in term of platforms. 
also station locations have to decided together with local gov. a lot of them have plan to develop the new areas so they want the stations to be in the planned new area. but now the situation is changed when the HSR become very popular in China and they realized this problem. 
Guangzhou has plan to convert old Guangzhou station to HSR and move all the conventional routes to a new station located between Guangzhou and Guangzhou North. which is now a freight only station.
Shanghai has similar plan to move the long distance low speed terminal station to new Songjiang and change Shanghai South to a HSR and commuter station. Beijing will do the same for Beijing West and move the low speed routes to new Fengtai station. 


HSR lines in France are also cannot bring to all the existing stations either. TGV est has stations in the mid of nowhere or between two cites, where they built new connection lines to cities. 
it is not good plan like Japanese first HSR line Tōkaidō Shinkansen while the line connected to the old stations but most of the trains are not even stopped on those stations. the speed limit has to change very frequently. they have to make the train set to automatically programmed the speed limit changes according to the line. It is easier for Tōkaidō Shinkansen to connect the old station because the speed limit was designed for 210 k/h only. 

The good solution is to connect those suburban stations to center stations with connection lines. Feeder connection trains can be timing with the main line service. so the seamless connections can be made. 

Chinese center gov. is pushing railway to serve the urban commuters so new commuter railway lines will be connected to those HSR stations.


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## Sunfuns

There are no Chinese airline routes among the top 5 busiest in the world. I bet there would be without HSR playing such a prominent role.


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## chornedsnorkack

cheehg said:


> I agree some stations are too far from city center, such as Guangzhou south. most of the terminal stations are ok in China. some of them are actually very close to center, such as Beijing, Shenyang, Hangzhou, Ningbo, Shijiazhuang, Zhengzhou,etc. there are reasons HSR cannot enter the center stations. limited land and limited space for upgrade the old stations. If you know the old stations in China normally are very small in term of platforms.





cheehg said:


> it is not good plan like Japanese first HSR line Tōkaidō Shinkansen while the line connected to the old stations but most of the trains are not even stopped on those stations.


How big is Tokyo Station compared to Shanghai Station? Because Tokyo Station is shared by Shinkansen, zairaisen and also Yamanote Line. And opened in 1914!
And I understand Shanghai Station is not good for trains passing through, so CRH trains won´t pass through without stopping there...


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## Pansori

One major issue with Chinese stations is not the stations themselves but rather boarding procedures. They are inefficient and have a pre-programmed risk of delaying the trains (albeit admittedly the staff usually do a good job coping with this). This is not something that can be changed easily because it's got more to do with people's culture and manners rather than infrastructure. But it probably explains, at least in part, why Japan is managing to achieve such incredible efficiency AND punctuality with its trains. Boarding is far more efficient and passengers are better behaved. Chinese stations have extremely large reserve capacity provided they start using less restrictive boarding rules.


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## Sopomon

Sunfuns said:


> There are no Chinese airline routes among the top 5 busiest in the world. I bet there would be without HSR playing such a prominent role.


Or the military shutting off the vast majority of airspace to commercial use, causing near constant delays.


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## chornedsnorkack

In Taiwan, Nangang, Taibei, Banqiao and Zuoying Stations are all shared with slow speed rail.


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## ccdk

*Harbin-Mudanjiang HSR progress*
http://www.gov.cn/xinwen/2018-01/16/content_5257145.htm#3

Total length: 293km, designed speed: 250km/h, operational: end of 2018


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## General Huo

Chinese bridge
Published on Jan 16, 2018


First half is Nanchang to Ganzhou high speed railway,located in Jiangxi province,southern China:

second half is Harbin to Mudanjiang high speed railway,located in Heilongjiang province,northern China:

前半部分是位于江西省的南昌到赣州高铁，后半部是位于黑龙江的哈尔滨到牡丹江高铁，可以看出中国南北方高速铁路的不同风貌


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## tjrgx

*Train number and time required for the fastest direct passenger railway service between major cities in mainland China*

Train number and time required for the fastest direct passenger railway service between major cities in mainland China 

https://m.weibo.cn/status/4198422300879024


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## dbhaskar

Xining to Urumqi, even on a high speed D-series train, takes 10 hours (9.5 hrs in the other direction). I wonder who uses this service. Especially since there are not too many big cities in the middle.


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## Short

dbhaskar said:


> Xining to Urumqi, even on a high speed D-series train, takes 10 hours (9.5 hrs in the other direction). I wonder who uses this service. Especially since there are not too many big cities in the middle.


It is a well used and patronised service. Some of the cities in the middle are bigger than you realise. I have travelled along the line to Zhangye (over 300,000 people) for the last seven years, plus Jiayuguan (over 230,000), Jiuquan (over 950,000), Hami (over 540,000) and Turpan (over 500,000). Large cities by many standards. 

Plus Xining is not the desired terminal, as opposed to Lanzhou. The journey has been halved or more with the opening of the High Speed Railway. Zhangye has grown and improved incredibly over this time, with new hotels and improved amenities. Because of the long distances between these desert communities, the high speed rail line has been great for my friends and the way they conduct business out there. It has also improved tourism along the 'Silk Road Route', with people hopping from city to city in an hour or so, unlike the all day bus rides or long conventional trains they had to face before.


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## chornedsnorkack

Short said:


> Plus Xining is not the desired terminal, as opposed to Lanzhou.


Indeed. Xining is conspicuously neglected, although it is capital of a province.
Beijing has direct service to Nanning (13:27). Shanghai has service to Harbin (12:14). Guangzhou has service to Tianjin (11:11).

Trip times to Lanzhou are Beijing-Lanzhou 9:11, Shanghai-Lanzhou 10:32, Guangzhou-Lanzhou 10:29.
Lanzhou-Xining takes just 1:12.
It should be easy to run direct trains Beijing-Xining under 10:30, and Shanghai-Xining and Guangzhou-Xining under 11:45.
Instead, the best times are Beijing-Xining 19:01, Shanghai-Xining 24:44, Guangzhou-Xining 31:26.


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## dbhaskar

I didn't quote Lanzhou-Urumqi, because I presumed that the Lanzhou-Xining part of the line must be well patronized - I was more concerned with the remainder. I bet most of the reservations for routes that take longer than 5 hrs must be for intermediate destinations rather than the whole journey.

What is the cut-off point where it makes more sense to take a flight than HSR? With Wi-Fi, better legroom, pantry and punctuality, I would be willing to spend up to 5 hrs on a HSR journey. Anything beyond that, I'd prefer a flight.


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## t2contra

OT, but need to ask the boffins here.

For freight trains traveling from China to Europe, in particular, Hungary, do the trains have to change wheels to fit the different gauge and how long does it take?


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## Short

t2contra said:


> OT, but need to ask the boffins here.
> 
> For freight trains traveling from China to Europe, in particular, Hungary, do the trains have to change wheels to fit the different gauge and how long does it take?


The whole wheel bogies are swapped out in massive sheds at various places along the border, where they go from standard gauge to Russian gauge and back again. The capability of the individual site can determine the length of time, from 10-15 minutes per wagon individually or whole rakes of wagons being lifted and the wheels swapped out all at once. Another factor is down to the workforce, customs officials, security and practices in certain countries, be it China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus, Moldova or wherever.


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## Short

dbhaskar said:


> I didn't quote Lanzhou-Urumqi, because I presumed that the Lanzhou-Xining part of the line must be well patronized - I was more concerned with the remainder. I bet most of the reservations for routes that take longer than 5 hrs must be for intermediate destinations rather than the whole journey.
> 
> What is the cut-off point where it makes more sense to take a flight than HSR? With Wi-Fi, better legroom, pantry and punctuality, I would be willing to spend up to 5 hrs on a HSR journey. Anything beyond that, I'd prefer a flight.


It is only about 90 minutes or less between the intermediate stops, so it is good for going from one city to the next. Air travel in the region is mostly either to Urumqi or Lanzhou, if not further away to Xi'an or Beijing. There are few flights hopping to the next city along the Silk Road Route, leaving only buses or conventional rail to compete with. Thus it has radically changed the way many people get about in that area. It is used by thousands of people daily between the intermediate stops, not always endpoint to endpoint. Which is why all the high speed services have many stops and there are no express high speed trains between Xinjiang and Gansu/Qinghai.

For myself, last July I hopped from Lanzhou to Zhangye in 3 hours, then onto Jiayuguan in another 1.5 hours, plus 5 hours from to Turpan, finally 1 hour to Urumqi. All because there was no alternative air travel options and it would have been much longer on a bus or sleeper train, requiring a full travel day in between these cities. All trains were full and well patronised.

As a side note, if you have a chance, I do highly recommend travelling along this line. From the crossing of the snow capped Qinghai Mountains and golden canola fields to the vast desert landscapes, it is well worth the effort. Plus the food in this region is fantastic as you get a mix of Chinese and Middle Eastern style cuisines.


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## General Huo

TBM for Beijing Zhangjiakou hsr


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## General Huo

Manufacture wheels for her


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## xinxingren

t2contra said:


> OT, but need to ask the boffins here.
> 
> For freight trains traveling from China to Europe, in particular, Hungary, do the trains have to change wheels to fit the different gauge and how long does it take?


China-Europe freight is mostly containers, so it's easier to lift the containers onto different gauge wagons alongside. A 41 car train is transhipped in under an hour at Alashankou.


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## chornedsnorkack

Short said:


> It is used by thousands of people daily between the intermediate stops, not always endpoint to endpoint. Which is why all the high speed services have many stops and there are no express high speed trains between Xinjiang and Gansu/Qinghai.


Yes, but it would make sense to run overnight high speed trains, and run them as expresses at night between Urumqi and Xining.


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## ccdk

*Nanchang-Ganzhou Line Construction*


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## tjrgx

*Get an insider's view of China's railway track laying*


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## hkskyline

Short said:


> It is only about 90 minutes or less between the intermediate stops, so it is good for going from one city to the next. Air travel in the region is mostly either to Urumqi or Lanzhou, if not further away to Xi'an or Beijing. There are few flights hopping to the next city along the Silk Road Route, leaving only buses or conventional rail to compete with. Thus it has radically changed the way many people get about in that area. It is used by thousands of people daily between the intermediate stops, not always endpoint to endpoint. Which is why all the high speed services have many stops and there are no express high speed trains between Xinjiang and Gansu/Qinghai.
> 
> For myself, last July I hopped from Lanzhou to Zhangye in 3 hours, then onto Jiayuguan in another 1.5 hours, plus 5 hours from to Turpan, finally 1 hour to Urumqi. All because there was no alternative air travel options and it would have been much longer on a bus or sleeper train, requiring a full travel day in between these cities. All trains were full and well patronised.
> 
> As a side note, if you have a chance, I do highly recommend travelling along this line. From the crossing of the snow capped Qinghai Mountains and golden canola fields to the vast desert landscapes, it is well worth the effort. Plus the food in this region is fantastic as you get a mix of Chinese and Middle Eastern style cuisines.


Not full when I took it last October. There were empty *cars*. Not sure how economical it is to run so much capacity for tourists in this vast stretch of land, but given the frequencies are so low the authorities probably know it's a tough line to keep going.


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## cheehg

chornedsnorkack said:


> A node at Tianjin...
> 
> Note that it is parallel to another line section.
> 
> And that´s another parallel.
> 
> So so summarize, for example, Shanghai:
> 2 directions, 3 lines.
> In Nanjing direction:
> Beijing-Shanghai line
> Nanjing-Shanghai 102 pairs
> Shanghai-Chengdu line
> SH-Nanjing 110
> combined - 212 pairs
> first shared station - Kunshan South, which all the 212 pass, but many do not stop in
> In Hangzhou direction:
> Shanghai-Kunming line
> Shanghai-hangzhou 134
> 
> I understand that Hongqiao is a through station, so some trains can and do pass through Shanghai; however, since Shanghai is at a tip of a peninsula, it would be a detour, and few do. Correct?


yes. Actually there are many trains pass through Hongqiao to give direct connection between cities on SH-NJ lines to south of SH (Hangzhou direction). there are 1-2 pairs actually make a circle from NJ-SH-HZ-NJ. If i check the timetable of Jan.23, There are 27 pairs From Suzhou to Hangzhou direct, passing through Hongqiao.


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## cheehg

hkskyline said:


> Not full when I took it last October. There were empty *cars*. Not sure how economical it is to run so much capacity for tourists in this vast stretch of land, but given the frequencies are so low the authorities probably know it's a tough line to keep going.


This line was designed originally as 200 km/h and then changed to 350 km/h. during the mid of construction changed to 200-250 km/h. There are some T/Z/K non-CHR trains on this line too. Top speed is 160 km/h.


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## Short

cheehg said:


> This line was designed originally as 200 km/h and then changed to 350 km/h. during the mid of construction changed to 200-250 km/h. There are some T/Z/K non-CHR trains on this line too. Top speed is 160 km/h.


Only a handful of D trains run the full length of the line. Most D trains are for provincial level service, from Lanzhou to Jiayuguan for example. The opening of this line has allowed for many much faster conventional rail sleepers for destinations from Xinjiang to eastern Chinese cities. Urumqi-Chengdu is about 35 hours as opposed to 48-50 hours previously. It has also relieved the congestion for freight use from the Lanzhou-Urumqi conventional line.


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> Not full when I took it last October. There were empty *cars*. Not sure how economical it is to run so much capacity for tourists in this vast stretch of land, but given the frequencies are so low the authorities probably know it's a tough line to keep going.


Does China need smaller CRH trains? Like 6 or 4 cars, not just 8?


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## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> Does China need smaller CRH trains? Like 6 or 4 cars, not just 8?


Probably on lines like XinLan they need a modern version of the old style mixed trains, ie. 4 new style HSR freight cars for airline pallet/containers, and 4 pax cars.


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## ccdk

*Shanghai Hongqiao Maintenance Base*
http://news.ifeng.com/a/20180124/55423273_0.shtml#p=10


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## cheehg

Short said:


> Only a handful of D trains run the full length of the line. Most D trains are for provincial level service, from Lanzhou to Jiayuguan for example. The opening of this line has allowed for many much faster conventional rail sleepers for destinations from Xinjiang to eastern Chinese cities. Urumqi-Chengdu is about 35 hours as opposed to 48-50 hours previously. It has also relieved the congestion for freight use from the Lanzhou-Urumqi conventional line.


The conventional trains are heavy so CR Lanzhou doesn’t allow more those on the track although CR Urumqi prefer more conventional long distance trains to move on hsr line. It increases the maintenance cost because the tracks are wore fast.


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## tjrgx

*China's Chongqing-Guiyang high-speed railway to open on Thursday*


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## cheehg

i like the new digital train # info and especially car # info on the platform.


----------



## Benyo

*Taking the High-speed train from Guangzhou to Shenzhen*


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## binhai

Plenty of empty cars on US trains, too. Plus the Xinjiang-Lanzhou line is essential for connecting the "empire", very important line to keep running. Not everything is run for purely utilitarian economic reasons, in fact I'd say most passenger rails aren't.


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## Pansori

BarbaricManchurian said:


> Plenty of empty cars on US trains, too. Plus the Xinjiang-Lanzhou line is essential for connecting the "empire", very important line to keep running. Not everything is run for purely utilitarian economic reasons, in fact I'd say most passenger rails aren't.


China is yet to adopt dynamic pricing. Something many European rail operators did long time ago in order to maximize efficiency. You can actually get from London to Glasgow (642km) for 30GBP. Or from Frankfurt to Paris (~550km) for 45EUR which is comparable to prices on Chinese HSR. China should use dynamic pricing to encourage people travel on less popular lines.


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## urbanfan89

Pansori said:


> China is yet to adopt dynamic pricing. Something many European rail operators did long time ago in order to maximize efficiency. You can actually get from London to Glasgow (642km) for 30GBP. Or from Frankfurt to Paris (~550km) for 45EUR which is comparable to prices on Chinese HSR. China should use dynamic pricing to encourage people travel on less popular lines.


Maybe in theory, but what about during peak season (e.g. upcoming Lunar New Year)? Adapting dynamic pricing would restrict rail travel (which is the only viable form of travel for most of the working class) into the wealthy minority. And that would definitely cause bad words to be said about a Party that supposedly was founded by the workers, for the workers.

So for that reason, there should be at least a cap on dynamic pricing to allow everyone to travel even at uncomfortable congestion.


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## tjrgx

*New railway links major SW China cities*

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-01/25/c_136922970.htm






CHONGQING/GUIYANG, Jan. 25 (Xinhua) -- A railway connecting Chongqing and Guiyang, two major cities in southwest China, started operation Thursday.

A bullet train left Chongqing Municipality for Guiyang, capital of Guizhou Province, at 8:50 a.m.

Designed for trains running at a speed of 200 km per hour, the 347-km rail line will cut travel time between Chongqing and Guiyang from the current 10 hours to 2 hours, and shorten travel time between Chengdu, capital of Sichuan, and Guiyang to 3.5 hours.

The railway will improve traffic between China's southwest and booming southern areas.


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## ccdk

*HSR Track production*
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/interface/toutiaonew/53002523/2018-01-24/cd_35572838.html


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## Sopomon

*G281 from Qingdao to Hangzhou abruptly catches fire:*

http://www.epochtimes.com/b5/18/1/25/n10086261.htm

(Google translated)


> 【Epoch January 25, 2018】 January 25 11:53, Hangzhou, Hangzhou G281 high-speed rail train bound for the second compartment sudden fire, violent fire, the scene is black smoke billows, the rapid withdrawal of passengers on board, No casualties.
> 
> According to the comprehensive information reported on the Railways, at the time of the incident, G281 train bound for Hangzhou, Hangzhou, running to the station in Anhui Province, Dingyuan stop, electrical equipment suddenly failed, the 2nd suddenly emerge a heavy fire and rolling black smoke.


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## tjrgx

*New railway links major SW China cities*

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-01/25/c_136924405.htm






CHONGQING/GUIYANG, Jan. 25 (Xinhua) -- A railway connecting Chongqing and Guiyang, two major cities in southwest China, started operation Thursday.

A bullet train carrying 552 passengers left Chongqing Municipality for Guiyang, capital of Guizhou Province, at 8:50 a.m., according to the Chengdu railway bureau.

Forty-six pairs of bullet trains will run on the 347-km rail line, which was designed for trains running at a speed of 200 km per hour.

The line cuts travel time between Chongqing and Guiyang from the current 10 hours to 2 hours, and shortens travel time between Chengdu, capital of Sichuan, and Guiyang to 3.5 hours.

Passenger Li Xiaoqiang said he loved the natural scenery in Guizhou and that he made the trip to prepare for a family journey.

"We want to spend summer there," Li said.

Li Jie, who makes several business trips to Zunyi of Guizhou from Chongqing every month, said the new train service would shorten his travel time from 3.5 hours to less than 1.5 hours.

"In fact, I came here today just to experience the train's maiden run," he said.
The new line is expected to replace the primitive Sichuan-Guizhou railway constructed between the 1950s and 1970s. Low design standards, in addition to towering cliffs and ravines along the route, shackled its traffic speed, according to Dai Xu with the Chongqing railway station.

A total of 209 bridges, 115 two-way tunnels and 12 stations were built for the new railway, which will improve traffic between China's southwest, a major source of migrant workers, and booming southern areas.


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## Short

cheehg said:


> The conventional trains are heavy so CR Lanzhou doesn’t allow more those on the track although CR Urumqi prefer more conventional long distance trains to move on hsr line. It increases the maintenance cost because the tracks are wore fast.


There are increasing pressure with the conventional rail freight, especially with the growth of Eurasian transcontinental services. I can see the angst between the two railway bureaus. As the highest High Speed Railway, I would bet that there are plenty of maintenance issues. While I was at the Great Wall at Jiayuguan, I saw one train pass through the wall and thought I better be quick to take a photo. I need not have hurried as there was plenty of conventional traffic of all types of freight and passenger trains passing both ways on this line in the hour I was there.


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## mingrady

More info on the high speed train fire incident from a Chinese site. It's very fortunate everyone's got out fine and there's no injury reported so far. 

If someone can translate it into English, that'd be great: 

结合视频可见，停车时车下冒烟，有少量明火，工作人员用灭火器灭火未能控制火势，但即使疏散乘客未造成伤亡。
结合动车组操作手册可见，遇故障维持运行至下一车站非常必要，对疏散旅客，加强救援都发挥了作用。更重要的是停在车站配线可不至于影响其他列车行车。这也让出现火灾事故后3小时京沪高铁恢复行车成为可能。
最后说说火灾本身，着火的2车是变压器车。目前无法明确判断事故原因维修还是设备原因，亦不能排除降雪对设备带来的影响。事故预案避免了人员伤亡，对行车影响降低值得庆幸。但动车组火灾隔离，阻燃和设备防火处置希望通过事故能够得到进一步加强。

注：图片和以下文字均为转发。

“1月25日，青岛北所担当的G281次CRH380BL-5522列，运行至徐州东站至南京南区间时主断自动断开，HMI屏显示1车牵引丢失，报故障代码25EF(接地故障监控起作用)，通知司机切除1车牵引，1车牵引切除后，HMI屏报故障代码68C4、68C5、631F、63CE等故障代码，自动限速200km/h,维持运行至前方站处理，定远站停车发现2车车下冒烟，正在处置中。”


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## cheehg

Pansori said:


> China is yet to adopt dynamic pricing. Something many European rail operators did long time ago in order to maximize efficiency. You can actually get from London to Glasgow (642km) for 30GBP. Or from Frankfurt to Paris (~550km) for 45EUR which is comparable to prices on Chinese HSR. China should use dynamic pricing to encourage people travel on less popular lines.


They do but not on system wise. there are discounts on some morning and late evening trains on some lines. They are still pretty much trying to catch up the demands on most lines. so the focus is not on this yet. When Baoji-Lanzhou line opened, CR Lanzhou run out of the trains so they have to take some from Lanzhou-Xinjiang and airport lines. 

CRRC are also making new trains with more flexible car combination. each unit may have 2 cars so it could be 4-car and 6-car sets instead of now all at 8 and 16 car sets. so those lines may have more services by smaller format train sets.


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## cheehg

Short said:


> There are increasing pressure with the conventional rail freight, especially with the growth of Eurasian transcontinental services. I can see the angst between the two railway bureaus. As the highest High Speed Railway, I would bet that there are plenty of maintenance issues. While I was at the Great Wall at Jiayuguan, I saw one train pass through the wall and thought I better be quick to take a photo. I need not have hurried as there was plenty of conventional traffic of all types of freight and passenger trains passing both ways on this line in the hour I was there.


Yes Lanzhou-Xinjiang line is a very busy freight line. and with increasing China-Europe scheduled freight trains, it is getting busier every day. The Lan-Xin HSR line was approved as 200 km/h Class I but MOR upgraded it to a 350 KM/H High speed line. so the CHR train can run from Urumqi to Beijing under 12 hours. It is still able to upgrade to 350-400 km/h in the future. for now it is a bit wasted.


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## chornedsnorkack

cheehg said:


> The Lan-Xin HSR line was approved as 200 km/h Class I but MOR upgraded it to a 350 KM/H High speed line. so the CHR train can run from Urumqi to Beijing under 12 hours. It is still able to upgrade to 350-400 km/h in the future. for now it is a bit wasted.


Urumqi-Lanzhou is 11:06. Lanzhou-Beijing is 9:01. So Urumqi-Beijing would be over 20 hours.


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## FM 2258

cheehg said:


> Yes Lanzhou-Xinjiang line is a very busy freight line. and with increasing China-Europe scheduled freight trains, it is getting busier every day. The Lan-Xin HSR line was approved as 200 km/h Class I but MOR upgraded it to a 350 KM/H High speed line. so the CHR train can run from Urumqi to Beijing under 12 hours. It is still able to upgrade to 350-400 km/h in the future. for now it is a bit wasted.


I'm confused now. I thought The Lanzhou-Urumqi line was rated at 200-250km/h. 


350km/h makes more sense for such a long line in my opinion.


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## aquaticko

FM 2258 said:


> I'm confused now. I thought The Lanzhou-Urumqi line was rated at 200-250km/h.
> 
> 
> 350km/h makes more sense for such a long line in my opinion.


Maybe, but consider operations. Relatively fewer people are going to use the line than 350km/h lines in other areas, due to lower population density (among other reasons), so there is less need to run trains faster to allow more and quicker service. Also, even on the newest EMU's globally, it takes time to reach 350km/h, and considering that few people will use the line end-to-end, and instead stop somewhere in between, 350km/h isn't going to be reached as easily. I.e., I don't imagine there's much demand for a Xinjiang-Lanzhou express. There are also, of course, higher maintenance costs on lines with higher speed.

For such a long line through such a relatively-sparsely populated area, HSR really isn't the best fit.


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## cheehg

FM 2258 said:


> I'm confused now. I thought The Lanzhou-Urumqi line was rated at 200-250km/h.
> 
> 
> 350km/h makes more sense for such a long line in my opinion.


200-250 km/h is a later change when all the basic civil engineering works are already constructed. If you check the line specific you will find everything from inter-track line distance to curves are designed for 350 km and up. It is the most straight hsr line in China. All curves are above 9000 and most of them 12000. It was a crazy ambitious decision made by then MOR Mr. Liu.


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## ccdk

*Qingdao Base*
http://www.sohu.com/a/222125509_163726


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## ScientisT.bass

ccdk said:


> Major railway bureaus around the country is preparing for the upcoming Chinese New Year travel rush
> 
> *Nanchang Depot*
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> *Hefei Depot*
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> http://sztqb.sznews.com/PC/content/201802/01/c296695.html
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> *Beijing Depot*
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> *Wuhan Depot*
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> http://user.guancha.cn/main/content?id=3824



This is EPIC. :lol:


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## Xtartrex

I found this video of new soft sleepers, it looks very classy


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## ccdk

*Jinan - Qingdao Line, to be put into operation by year end*
http://news.iqilu.com/shandong/shandonggedi/20180218/3840459.shtml


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## tjrgx

*You can get food delivered on China's bullet trains*






Train passengers in China have long complained about the expensive and often not so tasty meals on the trains, a result of monopoly in selling food and drinks by railway firms. The latest round of reforms has opened the market to other companies in a bid to provide a wider selection of hungry passengers and boost the local economy. For delivery firms, it's literally a race against the world's fastest trains, which now move at a speed of 350 km/h.


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## xinxingren

ccdk said:


> Major railway bureaus around the country is preparing for the upcoming Chinese New Year travel rush


So, there are yards full of CHR trainsets. I saw somewhere that 9M tickets had been sold for Monday February 12. The interesting number will be what fraction of total train travel for Spring Festival was still on old ordinary trains...


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## hkskyline

Well, high-speed train ticket prices are out of reach for the migrant masses trying to get home in the countryside for the holidays. Most of the country will be priced out.


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## FM 2258

Might be a weird question, is China's conventional railway system still massively bigger than the CRH railway network? Not sure what percentage of China's railway network is high-speed vs conventional.


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## hkskyline

FM 2258 said:


> Might be a weird question, is China's conventional railway system still massively bigger than the CRH railway network? Not sure what percentage of China's railway network is high-speed vs conventional.


Source is a bit dated but you can get a picture of the high-speed network in the grand scheme of things : https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ay-network-to-150000-km-by-2020-idUSKCN1000IK

_China will expand its railway network to 150,000 km (93,200 miles) by 2020, including 30,000 km of high-speed rail, the country’s top economic planner said on Wednesday.

The plan will mean a 24 percent increase in the length of China’s railway network from 2015 and a 58 percent expansion in high-speed rail.

_


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## xinxingren

hkskyline said:


> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ay-network-to-150000-km-by-2020-idUSKCN1000IK
> 
> _China will expand its railway network to 150,000 km (93,200 miles) by 2020, including 30,000 km of high-speed rail, the country’s top economic planner said on Wednesday.
> _


I'd seen that before, and I've also seen random quotes from China Rail "spokespersons" that the HSR being PDL means more trains more often, which will draw traffic away from the old lines; and if they get passenger traffic off these lines they claim they can double their freight volumes. :hmm:


----------



## hkskyline

xinxingren said:


> I'd seen that before, and I've also seen random quotes from China Rail "spokespersons" that the HSR being PDL means more trains more often, which will draw traffic away from the old lines; and if they get passenger traffic off these lines they claim they can double their freight volumes. :hmm:


That theoretic assumption is true, and likely the final state once the country reaches First World status with people earning higher incomes, making high-speed rail affordable for leisure trips to the masses.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Does the number of tickets per train/seat rise or drop during holidays?


----------



## saintm




----------



## ccdk

xinxingren said:


> So, there are yards full of CHR trainsets. I saw somewhere that 9M tickets had been sold for Monday February 12. The interesting number will be what fraction of total train travel for Spring Festival was still on old ordinary trains...



According to a Forbes news, out of the 390 million rail trips during the Spring Festival Travel Rush, 58% are estimated to be on HSR, that leaves 42% conventional train journey.


----------



## ccdk

chornedsnorkack said:


> Does the number of tickets per train/seat rise or drop during holidays?


Max 20% overcapacity is allowed for 2nd class, none allowed for 1st and business class. Some D trains always sell standing tickets. During holiday rush they normally put additional trains into services.



chornedsnorkack said:


> 针对高铁是否会有超员超载这一情况，工作人员回应称，高铁动车组列车 ，二等座最高允许超员20%，但一等座和商务座是不允许超员的。


source


----------



## chornedsnorkack

ccdk said:


> Max 20% overcapacity is allowed for 2nd class, none allowed for 1st and business class. Some D trains always sell standing tickets. During holiday rush they normally put additional trains into services.


Yes, but the same seat on same train may be occupied by one ticket or many.
T204 travels 52 hours 5 minutes Shanghai to Yining. With 31 intermediate stops, Kunshan to Kuitun.

So a seat of T204 on weekday might carry 16 different ticketed passengers Shanghai to Kunshan, Suzhou to Wuxi etc... till Kuitun to Yining, yet be empty half of the voyage. (Or be full and carry 32 different passengers.) The same seat on holiday might carry a single migrant worker going home to Yining for holidays all the way (at the price of 433 yuan 5 jiao hard seat) and not carry the commuters who normally ride it, both because they are not working and because the seats normally available for commuters are full of long distance passengers.


----------



## Make_TT

*China develops 400 kph high-speed train*

2018-02-27 08:47 Xinhua Editor: Gu Liping

China is developing new bullet trains with a speed up to 400 kph, said a leading figure in the country's high-speed railway technology development.

Ding Rongjun, an academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, said that China was also researching the next generation magnetic-levitation train with a top speed of 600 kph, at a press conference Monday.

"We are now focusing on how to link TV signals to the trains so that passengers will be able to enjoy films on window-turned screens," Ding said.

A permanent magnet drive system has been added to trains and is undergoing assessment, he said, adding that automatic and unmanned drive technology will be used in the future.

The maximum speed of China's bullet trains rose to 350 kph, when the Fuxing (Rejuvenation) bullet trains started operation between Beijing and Shanghai on Sept. 21, 2017.

The Fuxing trains are a substantial upgrade on the previous Hexie (Harmony) bullet trains. Entirely designed and manufactured in China, the Fuxing train is more spacious and energy-efficient, with longer service life and better reliability.

http://www.ecns.cn/m/business/2018/02-27/293691.shtml


----------



## General Huo

Jinan to Qingdao HSR 2017济青高铁轨道铺设


----------



## tjrgx

*Who's on the 1st high-speed train of the day*


----------



## tjrgx

*Construction begins on Beijing-Xiongan rail link*






Construction starts on a rail link between Beijing and Xiongan New Area, an economic zone that will take over some of Beijing's non-capital functions.


----------



## FM 2258

Make_TT said:


> *China develops 400 kph high-speed train*
> 
> 2018-02-27 08:47 Xinhua Editor: Gu Liping
> <snip>
> 
> "We are now focusing on how to link TV signals to the trains so that passengers will be able to enjoy films on window-turned screens," Ding said.
> 
> 
> http://www.ecns.cn/m/business/2018/02-27/293691.shtml


I hope this doesn't mean having to watch a movie when I'd rather look outside. Personally I'm on the ride to enjoy the high speed train experience, not a movie but maybe I'm in the minority.


----------



## ccdk




----------



## ccdk

chornedsnorkack said:


> Yes, but the same seat on same train may be occupied by one ticket or many.
> T204 travels 52 hours 5 minutes Shanghai to Yining. With 31 intermediate stops, Kunshan to Kuitun.
> 
> So a seat of T204 on weekday might carry 16 different ticketed passengers Shanghai to Kunshan, Suzhou to Wuxi etc... till Kuitun to Yining, yet be empty half of the voyage. (Or be full and carry 32 different passengers.) The same seat on holiday might carry a single migrant worker going home to Yining for holidays all the way (at the price of 433 yuan 5 jiao hard seat) and not carry the commuters who normally ride it, both because they are not working and because the seats normally available for commuters are full of long distance passengers.


Yes, single seat is sold by sections as long as it's available for the section a passenger wishes to travel, at least for high speed trains, not quite sure about conventional trains thgouh.


----------



## ccdk

ccdk said:


> According to a Forbes news, out of the 390 million rail trips during the Spring Festival Travel Rush, 58% are estimated to be on HSR, that leaves 42% conventional train journey.


For the whole year of 2017, China Railways carried over 3 billion passengers, of which 1.713 billion were rides on the high speed railway, account for 56.4%. Since the first high speed line was launched in 2008 till end of 2017, the total ridership exceeded 7 billion.

By the end of 2017, the total mileage of railways has reached 127000km, of which 25000 are HSR
2013-2017, 29400km new tracks were added to the network, of which 15700 are HSR









http://news.sina.com.cn/o/2018-03-01/doc-ifyrzinh1040770.shtml


----------



## Peloso

FM 2258 said:


> I hope this doesn't mean having to watch a movie when I'd rather look outside. Personally I'm on the ride to enjoy the high speed train experience, not a movie but maybe I'm in the minority.


I subscribe to that. I'd rather enjoy the views. But since this is China we're talking about, just imagine how cool it would be if they installed polarized LCDs so that one could either watch a movie on the window by wearing special glasses, or enjoy the panorama without the glasses.


----------



## General Huo

China working on 400 kph high-speed bullet trains


----------



## Gusiluz

ccdk said:


> For the whole year of 2017, China Railways carried over 3 billion passengers, of which 1.713 billion were rides on the high speed railway, account for 56.4%. Since the first high speed line was launched in 2008 till end of 2017, the total ridership exceeded 7 billion.
> 
> By the end of 2017, the total mileage of railways has reached 127000km, of which 25000 are HSR
> 2013-2017, 29400km new tracks were added to the network, of which 15700 are HSR
> ...


With this data (thanks!) We can make this summary:
Millions / Iin HSR / In CRH trains
2007 / 86,500 / 61,210 
2008 / 127,400 / 127,730 
2009 / 179,580 / 179,580 
2010 / 290,540 / 290,540 
2011 / 440,000 / 440,000 
2012 / 485,500 / 486,000 
2013 / 530,000 / 672,000 
2014 / ¿??????? / 893,200 
2015 / 910,000 / 1.100,000 
2016 / 1.180,000 / 1.440,000 
2017 / ¿???????? / 1.710,000 
TOTAL / ¿?????? / 7.404,260


----------



## ccdk

*New De-icing facility put into service to fight the harsh snowy/icy winter of the northeast*
http://www.stdaily.com/cxzg80/kebaojicui/2018-03/02/content_643425.shtml

Basically spraying pressurised warm water onto the trains


----------



## FM 2258

I've always been curious about the effects high speed rail in China has had on domestic flights. Will the high speed rail system eventually eliminate the need for domestic flights in China? From the little research I've done it seems like both high speed rail and domestic flights are increasing.


----------



## Gusiluz

The distances in China are huge, even with trains at 400 km / h or more there will still be planes.
There are certain routes where the train can not compete for time with the plane.

The graph shows the number of passengers on any train, in my previous message are those of only HS.


----------



## ccdk

It would make sense to break down the data of the air transport market, and there are a few possible scenarios:

1. domestic short/mid haul: difficult to see if air transport is on the rise or on the decline in this sector, as this is the area potentially most affected by HSR services. But that doesn't mean HSR has completely replaced air travels along these routes, maybe both HSR and air travel are on the rise because the demand is rising faster. Notice some second tier city airports has >10% growth rate.

2. domestic long haul: probably not so much affected as HSR is less competitive in comparison with air travel in this sector.

3. international to domestic transfer: this sector is not likely affected, or affected far less than above two scenarios as not many airports have direct connection with HSR network, yet.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

ccdk said:


> It would make sense to break down the data of the air transport market, and there are a few possible scenarios:
> 
> 1. domestic short/mid haul: difficult to see if air transport is on the rise or on the decline in this sector, as this is the area potentially most affected by HSR services. But that doesn't mean HSR has completely replaced air travels along these routes, maybe both HSR and air travel are on the rise because the demand is rising faster. Notice some second tier city airports has >10% growth rate.
> 
> 2. domestic long haul: probably not so much affected as HSR is less competitive in comparison with air travel in this sector.


How are the second tier city services broken down between domestic short haul, domestic long haul and international? (I understand China does not yet have international short haul HSR-s).


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Some time ago, the Dutch airline KLM eliminated its connecting flights by changing them for seats on Thalys trains between Amsterdam, Brussels and Paris (and other destinations in France), thanks to the partnership between the national railway operators of Belgium, Germany, Holland and KLM: HSA (High Speed Alliance).


----------



## cheehg

From April 10 new timetable CR will add more 350 km/h trains on Beijing-Shanghai HSR, including 10 pairs Beijing-Shanghai, 3 pairs Beijing-Hangzhou and 2 pairs Beijing-Hefei. Those 10 pairs will run 350 km/h on BJ-SH HSR but 300 km/h on other lines (Bengbu-Hefei HSR and Nanjing-Hanzhou HSR). the fastest BJ-SH will be G17 in 4h18m calling only at Nanjing south. 1318 km in 4h18m means average travel speed of 306.5 km/h. G39 Beijing-Hangzhou also takes 4h18m calling at Nanjing south only. 
CR have the plan to replace all the trains on BJ-SH HSR with CR400 max speed at 350 km/h. We may see more in next timetable change.


----------



## ccdk

chornedsnorkack said:


> How are the second tier city services broken down between domestic short haul, domestic long haul and international? (I understand China does not yet have international short haul HSR-s).





ccdk said:


> break down the data of the *air transport market*


I meant to break down the air transport market data and compare with HSR data.


----------



## :jax:

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Some time ago, the Dutch airline KLM eliminated its connecting flights by changing them for seats on Thalys trains between Amsterdam, Brussels and Paris (and other destinations in France), thanks to the partnership between the national railway operators of Belgium, Germany, Holland and KLM: HSA (High Speed Alliance).


It hasn't been quite feasible as the airport/railway integration has been mostly poor, but it is improving now. I think Shanghai Hongqiao was the first airport HSR station. Changchun has one. Beijing Daxing will have one, as will Shenzhen Bao'an. There will be a station "nearby" Shanghai Pudong airport, while the nearest station in Guangzhou is pretty far away.


----------



## skyridgeline

Possibly a maglev test track (400/600 km/h) @ 0:45 ...


----------



## foxmulder

FM 2258 said:


> I've always been curious about the effects high speed rail in China has had on domestic flights. Will the high speed rail system eventually eliminate the need for domestic flights in China? From the little research I've done it seems like both high speed rail and domestic flights are increasing.


Below 1,000km, no contest. Trains are great. Frankly for me, I wouldn't even consider planes until the distance is around 1,500km. I would not fly from Beijing-Shanghai even if I am in a hurry. G-trains rules.


----------



## cheehg

ccdk said:


> I meant to break down the air transport market data and compare with HSR data.


I don't see any comparable date released. but it is very common when HSR lines opened the airlines stopped the domestic flights. recent example is Xi'an to Chengdu. It was one of the busiest routes but now only 1 or 2 flights left a day for connection flights. In China if the train takes less than 4 hours, airlines have very little chance to compete with. 

but China is a big country so airlines still have good grown over the years. new routes and international routes still grown fast. I just saw a recent report on public transportation date in China. railway and airlines increase 12%-13% while long distance and intercity buses decreases. average travel distance by train is still over 400 km but it is also shorted over the years. that means railway is gaining in intercity and middle distance travelling. back to 10 years ago before the HSR this section was dominated by express bus. 

so Chinese HSR gains the passengers mainly from bus, air and car drivers, as well as shafted from conventional railway.


----------



## tjrgx

*High-speed train technology purifies rural waste water*


----------



## Silly_Walks

^^

Would love to see a map of the approximate alignment.


----------



## ccdk

Gusiluz said:


> Fuxing Trains? I think there are two CRH380A.
> Besides the line is only for 250 kmh.
> 
> Anyway, the photos are very nice.


Ones on the 2nd picture are Fuxing trains. Look at the long black nose. Some Fuxing trains were added on the Beijing-Chengdu line for the spring festival travel rush.


----------



## ccdk

Silly_Walks said:


> ^^
> 
> Would love to see a map of the approximate alignment.


some sources point to this blueprint:


----------



## Silly_Walks

^^

Thanks! Do you know what the design speed will be?


----------



## General Huo




----------



## ccdk

Silly_Walks said:


> ^^
> 
> Thanks! Do you know what the design speed will be?


The plan is to connect existing (in use and under construction) lines with different configurations together, some sections are designed for 200km/h, other section 300, or 350/h. Only 170km of completely new tracks need to be added for this route. The bottom right corner on the picture actually listed each section separately, translation as below:

- Hangzhou - Jiangshan section: approx. 230km, designed speed 350km/h
- Jiangshan - Wuyishan section: approx. 150km, no existing HSR tracks
- Wuyishan - Nanping section: approx. 110km, will use existing Hefei - Fuzhou line, designed speed 300km/h
- Nanping - Longyan section: approx 246km, construction started mid 2013, expected in service 2018, designed speed 200
- Longyan - Meizhou - Longchuan section: approx 260km, Longyan-Meizhou will have a designed speed of 250km/h, Meizhou-Longchuan is 350km/h. Construction will start some time this year, and complete in 2022
- Longchuan - Shenzhen section: approx. 230km, use existing line, standard designed speed 350km/h


----------



## ccdk

This woman carried with her 2.5kg of home made rice wine, and was stopped at the security check at Suzhou HSR station because of the restrictions. She didn't want to waste the rice wine and started drinking at the security check point. That bottle can hold up to 2.5kg of liquid, and half of it was drunk by her. Mind you Chinese rice wine normally have high alcohol percentage. LMAO :nuts::nuts:


----------



## mingrady

Rice wine is not rice liquor. Rice wine is sweet and mild, not strong at all, probably has less alcohol content by volume than beer.


----------



## xinxingren

hkskyline said:


> *2nd SZ-HZ high-speed rail proposed*
> Mar 14, 2018
> Shenzhen Daily _Excerpt_
> 
> A SECOND high-speed rail, planned to run almost in parallel with the existing Shenzhen-Hangzhou coastal high-speed rail, should be constructed, eight deputies proposed at the ongoing session of the 13th National People’s Congress.
> ...
> “One high-speed rail linking Shenzhen and Hangzhou isn’t enough. The Shenzhen-Hangzhou Inland High-Speed Rail will run in parallel at a distance of 200-500 km from the coastal rail,
> ...
> According to the proposal, the rail covers a distance of 1,200 kilometers, 300 kilometers shorter than the coastal high-speed rail...


If this 2nd line is PDL, maybe they can also reduce or slow passenger service on the existing line, and start using those freight spurs that currently go to phantom Free Trade Zones in the wilderness :wink2:


----------



## hkskyline

CR400BF“FUXING”China standard EMU by Su Zhenyuan 苏振源, on Flickr


----------



## General Huo

京张高铁官厅水库特大桥拱型八孔钢桁梁落梁成功

Beijing-Zhangjiakou HSR Guanting Reservoir Bridge U/C


----------



## General Huo

Xian-Chengdu HSR





































Baoji-Chengdu Regular Railway


----------



## General Huo

More high speed rail depots

Qingdao


















Tianjin









Guiyang North


















Xi'an


















Wuhan









Chengdu


----------



## General Huo

一列高铁列车行驶在宝兰高铁甘肃天水段南河川大桥上









由昆明开往贵阳的G4136次列车经过贵州省安顺市境内的水桶木寨特大桥









郑州东站附近一处京广、徐兰高铁交汇的立体枢纽


----------



## Gusiluz

*China National Railway Test Centre*

The China National Railway Test Centre (Wikipedia in chinese) it is 15 km northeast of the center of Biejing, in the suburb of Dongjiao, and is called Huanxing Tielu ( 环形铁路, literally "the loop railway track") in chinese.
It has a total of 38 km of tracks, the outer ring is 9 km long with a curve radius of 1852 m. There is also the China Railway Museum. 

I believe that most of the tests (Fuxing trains, without machinist, etc.) are carried out in the PDL under construction.



Someone has more information?


----------



## ccdk

*Track laying work commences for Yinchuan-Xi'an Line (Yinchuan-Wuzhong section). Designed speed 250km/h, this section will also serve as part of the Beijing-Baotou-Yinchuan-Lanzhou trunk line*
http://news.ifeng.com/a/20180323/56974940_0.shtml
http://news.ifeng.com/a/20180322/56970597_0.shtml


----------



## ccdk

*Construction of Guiyang-Nanning HSR in full speed*
http://news.sina.com.cn/o/2018-03-19/doc-ifyskzti5471793.shtml

With the tendering process came to an end, the construction for the Guiyang-Nanning HSR is in full speed. The line has designed speed of 350km/h, and is expected to be put into operation in 2022. The 482km planned route will cost 75.76 billion yuan. The route will pass through distinctive geographical regions hence will have 188 bridges and 106 tunnels totalling 430km, 89% of the entire route.

Upon completion, Guiyang will be connected to all provincial capitals in neighbouring provinces, and Chongqing. Guiyang to Nanning will take less than 2 hours.


----------



## ccdk

*Shiyan-Xi'an HSR to commence construction within 2018*
http://news.sina.com.cn/c/nd/2018-03-19/doc-ifysmfri8282672.shtml

As part of the Wuhan-Xi'an HSR line, the Shiyan-Xi'an section is aiming to start construction within 2018. Upon completion, it will take less than 3 hours from Wuhan to Xi'an.


----------



## Oasis-Bangkok

Pont Danyang-Kunshan by photopoésie, on Flickr


----------



## Kintoy

I took the Shanghai-Beijing HST last week


----------



## General Huo

Chengdu-Guiyang HSR U/C, total length 632.6km


----------



## General Huo

Besides Zhengzhou East HSR Station, Zhengzhou South HSR Station is going to be built.

郑州南站衔接的有郑万铁路、郑阜铁路、郑登洛城际铁路、郑州至新郑机场至郑州南站城际铁路，未来与新郑机场三期工程陆空衔接，也预示着郑州航空港经济综合实验区将成为河南经济发展最活跃和最具潜力的地区之一。


----------



## xinxingren

*Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link testing*



> An MTR staff member found some wheels of the last car of an XRL train stabled at the maintenance shed of the Shek Kong Stabling Sidings had shifted out of position while he was conducting an inspection at about 9:15 pm on Tuesday


https://www.chinadailyasia.com/articles/183/116/34/1522821311547.html


----------



## ccdk

*Track Laying work completed for Hangzhou-Huangshan line*
https://news.lmjx.net/2018/201804/2018040413470713.shtml


----------



## General Huo

High Speed Railway in Sichuan 2017四川高速铁路建设


----------



## General Huo

Changlingguan Railway Bridge合武高铁长岭关大桥

Changlingguan Railway Bridge is a beam bridge in Hefei to Wuhan HSR,guess about 65m high, located in Macheng county,Hubei Province:
N31.297275 E115.434531
Can see nearby Shanlinhe reservoir from this bridge:


----------



## General Huo

Chengdu to Guiyang HSR(Bijie section)航拍成贵高铁毕节段

Chengdu to Guiyang high speed railway near Bijie city,Guizhou province.
From this video 00:29-00:40 we can see 142m high Diaolanhe Railway Bridge:
http://www.highestbridges.com/wiki/in...
parallel this bridge a new Xuyong to Bijie railway Diaolanhe bridge has start,can see it's construction tower.
01:16-01:31 can see 90m high Gangou Railway Bridge:
http://www.highestbridges.com/wiki/in...
which just cross above a small railway bridge in Zhijin to Bijie railway.
There are many other high railway bridges in Chengdu to Guiyang HSR,such as Yachihe,Xixihe,Xiangbahe,Jinshajiang,etc.It will become high railway bridge museum in the world.


----------



## General Huo

Yinchuan to Xi'an HSR(Gansu section)银西高铁甘肃段航拍

Yinchuan to Xi'an highspeed railway near Qingyang city,Gansu province


----------



## cheehg

thanks for the videos and pictures. what's the point of Zhenzhou South station? the location is awful. It will be better at the airport or more close to the city center.


----------



## Munwon

The amount of construction is mind numbing


----------



## Gusiluz

Thanks for the videos and photos, but considering the immense amount of lines and structures I would like to distinguish between what is under construction and what is already in operation. Just put U/C.

Thanks in advance


----------



## ccdk

*Haozhou section of Shangqiu-Hefei-hangzhou HSR *


----------



## General Huo

Wuhan-Shiyan HSR Han River Bridge U/C
汉十高铁汉江特大桥进入关键施工阶段


----------



## General Huo

Many new HSR routes are U/C now. Here are some

Wuhan-Shiyan HSR at Shiyan are


----------



## General Huo

Shangqiu-Hefei-Hangzhou HSR at Fuyang area




















at Chaohu area


----------



## General Huo

Lianyungang-Huai'an-Yangzhou-Zhenjiang HSR at Huai'an area


----------



## General Huo

Zhengzhou-Wanzhou HSR is building bridges crosses over Zhengzhou-Xian HSR

郑万高铁跨越郑西高铁16500吨转体斜拉桥


----------



## General Huo

Southern Sichuan Intercity HSR, speed 250-250km/h

在建的高速客运专线川南城际铁路为国铁Ι级，设计时速250公里双线（自贡至宜宾段时速350公里）。项目起自成渝客专内江北站，经自贡至泸州站，全线约130公里，总投资约190.7亿元


----------



## foxmulder

Holy cow, that is one of the largest scaffolding I have ever seen.


----------



## General Huo

Meizhou-Shantou PDL U/C

梅汕客专铁路


----------



## General Huo

Nanping-Longyan PDL (200km/h) U/C


----------



## mingrady

> By 2025, China's high-speed rail system will increase to 38.000 kilometers in a total length.


Source: CRRC


----------



## General Huo

HSR in Guangdong


----------



## General Huo

Zhengzhou-Wanzhou HSR U/C at Nanyang area


----------



## krisu99

It is funny that the poles for the electric catenary have already been set up on top of the bridge pylons before even the bridge beams have been put in place (on the right part of the image). Surely not an easy task, a high crane was necessary for that. Maybe there were in a hurry?

But apparently this was not a good idea because it looks like they had to remove them anyway in order to reach the pylons with the red crane vehicle


----------



## ccdk

*Construction of Zhengzhou-Jinan HSR Yellow River Super Bridge is in full swing*
http://www.gov.cn/xinwen/2018-04/17/content_5283427.htm#5


----------



## General Huo

The first high-speed railway that connects northwest China's Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region with other parts of the country will be put into service by 2020. The 618-km railway is expected to inject new vitality into the less developed region.


----------



## General Huo

High speed railway for 2022 Winter Olympics in construction

China’s new high-speed railway for the 2022 Winter Olympic Games is at a critical stage in construction. Travel between Beijing and the Winter Olympics Village will take just 50 minutes with the new Jing-Zhang high-speed railway. When completed, the line will be 174 kilometers long, connecting Beijing and the city of Zhangjiakou in Hebei Province.


----------



## General Huo

Railroad maintenance at night on Hohhot-Zhangjiakou HSR


----------



## General Huo

Taiyuan-Jiazuo HSR u/c, speed 250km/h, 358.8km long.


----------



## General Huo

Xi'an-Yinchuan HSR laying tracks
西银高铁铺轨已至银川


----------



## General Huo

Badong Tunnel of Zhengzhou-Wanzhou HSR u/c


----------



## General Huo

Liujing Yu River Bridge new bridge on Liuzhou-Nanjing Expressway set to open soon. It expends to 8 lanes in this section
六景郁江特大桥承载南宁往柳州方向车流，旧六景大桥承载柳州至南宁方向车流，形成双向八车道的通行条件，双桥并用将极大缓解柳南高速六景段的拥堵情况。


----------



## Gusiluz

*Lines inaugurated in 2017 and planned in 2018*

With news from the media, Wikipedia, UIC data and messages from this thread (thank you very much everyone!) I keep making my own list of Chinese HSR. My criteria is that they are lines only for passengers (PDL), although a metropolitan only has a maximum speed of 200 km/h. Sometimes there is contradictory news about whether it is mixed use (Jiujiang-Jingdezhen-Quzhou) in case of doubt I prefer to add the line to the list.

It consoles me to think that the UIC list has much less criteria than me, each year its list starts from scratch, so there are lines now appear that were not on the list when they were inaugurated years ago, and others were inaugurated and disappear; it also changes its origin or destination (Chongqing-Banbishan block station, Jinhua-Tangyasuo block station, Yangxin-K23 block station, Taishansuo block station-Liuzhou or Taigemu block station-Baotou) and its length. It includes lines that only have CRH trains (correct me if I'm wrong: Suining-Chengdu, Taigemu-Baotou and Ulanqab-Hohhot, Changping East-Xiaojinkou not even that: their trains are conventional at 160 km/h), says Jinan-Qingdao has 393 km (other years were 362), Hangzhou-Ningbo (now 155 but other years were 255), Zhengzhou-Xi'an 553 km, Guangzhou-Zhuhai North 143 km and Beijing-Zhengzhou 676 to cite only a few cases, and does not include Yichang- Lichuan, Chongqing-Suining, Guiyang-Kaiyang, Lanzhou-Zhongchuan, Changchun-Ulan Hot and Jiujiang-Yangxin, among others.

According to the UIC last year a section between Changsha West and Changsha was inaugurated, but I only find Changsha and Changsha South (?).



The list of upcoming openings is based on the same sources (thanks again!), If the UIC does not consider it or has not yet found out, I will write "No UIC".
The columns indicate the lines, the design speed, the date (dd/mm/yyyy), the length and the trunk line to which it belongs or, at least, where it is (O = West). M € indicates the investment per km.





................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................



In the table you can see how, after the Changes in the Policy of Speeds and Prices (April 2011) there are more and more % of lines designed for 250 km/h (last column).

I would appreciate any correction. A greeting.


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## aquaticko

I've always wondered why the line arriving westbound into Changsha (the Shanghai-Kunming PDL?) seems to purposely skirt Zhuzhou. Was it a matter of not wanting to bother with building a line through a metro area, as opposed to around it like most other high speed stations/lines in China? Or, were there geographic concerns, cost concerns, etc., to prevent the line from going through Zhuzhou? I'm not imagining that it'd be a concern of serving the bigger city (Changsha) vs. the smaller one, as there's no apparent reason why the line couldn't have gone through and connected both cities.


----------



## cheehg

aquaticko said:


> I've always wondered why the line arriving westbound into Changsha (the Shanghai-Kunming PDL?) seems to purposely skirt Zhuzhou. Was it a matter of not wanting to bother with building a line through a metro area, as opposed to around it like most other high speed stations/lines in China? Or, were there geographic concerns, cost concerns, etc., to prevent the line from going through Zhuzhou? I'm not imagining that it'd be a concern of serving the bigger city (Changsha) vs. the smaller one, as there's no apparent reason why the line couldn't have gone through and connected both cities.


New HSR lines often have less limits geographically than conventional lines with mixed traffic. Xi'An to Chengdu HSR line has a 40 km long 2% up cross Qinling mountain . It was impossible for freight trains. Yes the reason SH-KM line made detour to connect Nanchang and Changsha just because they are bigger cities.


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## General Huo

Zhengzhou-Fuyang HSR u/c
郑阜铁路扶华特大桥跨永登高速连续梁顺利合龙


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## General Huo

Nanchang-Ganzhou HSR in Jiangxi u/c
4月25日上午10时18分，随着最后一榀900吨箱梁稳稳落座到昌赣铁路庙下特大桥上，标志着中铁上海工程局圆满完成了昌赣客专CGZQ-5标段771孔箱梁架设任务。目前，该标段的线下工程全部结束，接下来转向线上无砟轨道施工。通讯员 芦徐文摄


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## General Huo

Tongliao-Xinming HSR and Chifeng-Kazuo HSR u/c in eastern Inner Mongolia

通辽至新民北客运专线全长196.9 公里，赤峰至喀左客运专线全长155.9公里。


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## General Huo

Lianyungang-Zhenjiang HSR u/c
连淮扬镇铁路


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## General Huo

Beijing-Shenyang HSR Wangjing Tunnel u/c, The tunnel is 8km long
京沈高铁望京隧道成功穿越位于朝阳区的无基础密集房屋群特级风险源


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## General Huo

Zhengzhou-Wanzhou HSR Xiaosanxia Tunnel u/c. It is 18,954 meters long, the longest tunnel in the world for 350km/h HSR.

郑万高铁小三峡隧道全面进入正洞施工阶段


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## Gusiluz

^^ Thanks for the news!

The trains circulate at 300 km/h through the Guadarrama tunnels (two tubes) of 28,377 meters long in the Madrid-Valladolid HSR because there are only ETCS 1. Soon they will level 2, although I do not think that the speed increases.


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## ccdk

Shangqiu-Hefei-Hangzhou Line under construction


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## Gusiluz

General Huo said:


> Zhengzhou-Wanzhou HSR Xiaosanxia Tunnel u/c. It is 18,954 meters long, the longest tunnel in the world for 350km/h HSR.
> 
> 郑万高铁小三峡隧道全面进入正洞施工阶段


The news (郑万高铁小三峡隧道全面进入正洞施工阶段) says:


> The Zhengdong High-speed Railway, which was constructed by China Railway Tunnel, has a total length of 18,954 meters. It is the longest tunnel with a speed of 350 kilometers per hour in Asia.


Yes now.


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## General Huo

Lianyungang-Yancheng HSR will finish construction soon 
连盐铁路


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## General Huo

Another bridge on Xuzhou-Yancheng HSR rotated successfully.
徐盐铁路最重连续梁转体成功 徐盐铁路为全长316公里、设计时速250公里的高速铁路









































































Last year, another bridge on this railroad rotated preciously
徐盐铁路淮沭新河特大桥跨新长铁路转体梁


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## General Huo

Yichang-Wanzhou HSR, one of most difficult railway in the world


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## General Huo

Datong-Xi'an HSR will open this year


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## Gusiluz

^^ Thank you, but it will not be that what you are going to open in June is Yuanping-Taiyuan, and Datong-Yuanping in 2018 or 2019? 
Because Taiyuan-Xi'an did it on july 1, 2014.


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## General Huo

China is expected to open its longest high-speed railway in northeastern Heilongjiang Province neighboring Siberia.


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## General Huo

Longest high-speed railway in China's cold northeastern region is expected to open by the end of August.


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## General Huo

HSR goes through Foshan


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## General Huo

HSR in Guizhou


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## General Huo




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## General Huo

The pylon of Apengjiang Bridge of Qianjiang-Zhangjiajie-Changde HSR t/o. It is the highest cable-stayed bridge for HSR in China. 

Qianjiang-Zhangjiajie-Changde HSR is 336.3km long, speed 200km/h

我国第一高跨高速铁路斜拉桥——阿蓬江特大桥主跨桥墩塔柱封顶 

黔张常铁路阿蓬江特大桥位于重庆市黔江区舟白镇县坝社区，全长1360.45米，由预应力混凝土筒支T梁、埃塔斜拉桥、刚构连续梁组成，最大跨度240米，主塔高度173.7米，是我国第一高跨高速铁路斜拉桥，建设总工期38个月。阿蓬江特大桥自2015年7月28日开工以来，建设进展顺利。

黔张常铁路跨重庆、湖北、湖南三省市，全长336.3公里，设计时速200公里，为客货共线国家一级双线电气化铁路。


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## chornedsnorkack

General Huo said:


> Longest high-speed railway in China's cold northeastern region is expected to open by the end of August.


Manifestly absurd.
Harbin to Jiamusi is not in any sense high altitude. It is in low altitudes of Sungari valley.


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## t2contra

chornedsnorkack said:


> Manifestly absurd.
> Harbin to Jiamusi is not in any sense high altitude. It is in low altitudes of Sungari valley.


I believe they meant high latitude.


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## Sopomon

Even that makes no sense.

Harbin itself is 45.5 degrees North. At the same latitude as Lyon.


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## General Huo

The whole western and Northern Europe are warm because of North Atlantic Current. The comparison to Harbin should be the eastern side of a continent like North America. Harbin is more like Montreal in Canada. However, due to the powerful Siberia cold current, it feels much colder in winter in Harbin. 



Sopomon said:


> Even that makes no sense.
> 
> Harbin itself is 45.5 degrees North. At the same latitude as Lyon.


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## Sopomon

General Huo said:


> The whole western and Northern Europe are warm because of North Atlantic Current. The comparison to Harbin should be the eastern side of a continent like North America. Harbin is more like Montreal in Canada. However, due to the powerful Siberia cold current, it feels much colder in winter in Harbin.


Oh no, I totally understand the weather dynamics. There is no denying that Harbin is far colder than European cities on the same latitude. Just that if that was their error, it wouldn't make too much sense, as it is still a relatively low latitude.


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## KavirajG

*China to open its longest high-speed railway in cold NE region*

China is expected to open its longest high-speed railway in a northeastern area neighboring Siberia.

The 343-kilometer line links Harbin, the provincial capital of Heilongjiang, with Jiamusi, also in Heilongjiang. It has been undergoing tests since Tuesday. 









_Construction workers on the tracks of the high-speed railway linking Harbin with Jiamusi in Heilongjiang Province _

It is designed for both passenger and freight transportation with a speed of 200 km per hour. It will shorten the travel time between Harbin and Jiamusi by train to 110 minutes from about 360 minutes.

Passenger and cargo testing trains were used to examine systems and projects including power supply, subgrades, and bridges to ensure they all meet requirements.

The line is scheduled to undergo a pilot run in July before full operation one month later.

Construction on the high-speed railway started in July 2014 as one of the key projects included in China's mid- and long term railway network scheme. The railway is entirely located in a high-altitude cold area, which is challenging both for builders and future train operators. Local temperatures can dip to minus 35 degrees Celsius in winter.

http://chinaplus.cri.cn/news/china/9/20180501/125348.html


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## KavirajG

> *No worries about strikes as driverless trains on the way*
> 
> In China, 200km/h self-driving trains will start service by year-end, and 350km/h automatic trains in the works
> 
> By ASIA TIMES STAFF MAY 2, 2018 7:25 PM (UTC+8)
> 
> hina’s first fully automatic high-speed intercity rail line is set to be up and running between Dongguan and Huizhou, two boom towns in Guangdong province where driverless bullet trains will start cruising at 200km/h by the end of 2018.
> 
> Xinhua also reported on Monday that the state-owned China Railway Signal & Communication Corporation had finished laboratory tests for the world’s first 350km/h automatic high-speed railway signaling system and road tests could start in the second half of the year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Artist’s impression of the future automatic trains first to run on a high-speed line between Beijing and the ski resort of Zhangjiakou during the 2022 Beijing Winter Olympic Games. Photo: Xinhua
> _
> 
> The company said railway operators in China no long had to depend on imported operation and control systems to monitor and marshal trains on the nation’s sprawling high-speed network.
> 
> The report quoted an official with the State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission as saying that with the breakthrough, intercity through trains, metro and subway trains and other medium to low speed trains could all be driverless to enhance safety and efficiency.
> 
> The report also added that while rail and subway transportation in such countries as France and the United States are often marred by driver strikes, passengers and commuters in China wouldn’t need to worry about industrial actions or manpower shortages as more trains are set to become driverless.
> 
> Fully automatic trains and automatic people movers have been serving commuters on metro lines in Shanghai and Chongqing, and the 8.25-kilometer automatic maglev S1 line in Beijing was also opened last December.
> 
> Trains on the future Beijing-Zhangjiakou high-speed line to shuttle athletes and spectators between the capital city and the ski resort will have no driver’s cabins either. The lead project of the 2022 Beijing Winter Olympics is a 174km artery where automatic trains galloping at 350km/h will reduce the current four-hour journey to a 30-minute hop.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Commuters flock to the first compartment of a driverless train to peep into the tunnel on Hong Kong’s South Island Line. Photo: WikiMedia/Wpcpey_


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## ccdk

*Workers lay tracks for Wuhan-Shiyan high-speed railway in C China's Hubei*
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-05/05/c_137158379_7.htm

Workers lay tracks at the construction site of Wuhan-Shiyan high-speed railway in Zaoyang, central China's Hubei Province, May 5, 2018. The 399-km-long line will operate in 2019. (Xinhua/Du Huaju)


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## General Huo

Sopomon said:


> Oh no, I totally understand the weather dynamics. There is no denying that Harbin is far colder than European cities on the same latitude. Just that if that was their error, it wouldn't make too much sense, as it is still a relatively low latitude.


It is the Siberian cold temperature in Harbin in winter. It is even much colder than Montreal.










Montreal:
http://www.holiday-weather.com/montreal/averages/

Lyon is just too warm in winter
http://www.holiday-weather.com/lyon/averages/


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## chornedsnorkack

KavirajG said:


> *China to open its longest high-speed railway in cold NE region*
> 
> China is expected to open its longest high-speed railway in a northeastern area neighboring Siberia.
> 
> The 343-kilometer line links Harbin, the provincial capital of Heilongjiang, with Jiamusi, also in Heilongjiang. It has been undergoing tests since Tuesday.
> 
> It is designed for both passenger and freight transportation with a speed of 200 km per hour. It will shorten the travel time between Harbin and Jiamusi by train to 110 minutes from about 360 minutes.
> 
> Passenger and cargo testing trains were used to examine systems and projects including power supply, subgrades, and bridges to ensure they all meet requirements.
> 
> The line is scheduled to undergo a pilot run in July before full operation one month later.


How long is Harbin-Shenyang?
When in August 2018, Jiamusi-Harbin shall open, what shall be the trip time Jiamusi-Beijing? How many trains daily Jiamusi-Beijing?
What shall be the trip time Jiamusi-Shanghai? Jiamusi-Guangzhou?


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## Sopomon

General Huo said:


> It is the Siberian cold temperature in Harbin in winter. It is even much colder than Montreal.


I think we're in agreeance vis-a-vis the weather? But thank you for the data nonetheless.


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## :jax:

Arguably* the Northernmost HSR is the Bothnia line (63.8°N). Even if that line is disqualified, there are other HSR lines in Northern Europe north of the northernmost point in China, so "Northernmost HSR" is one HSR record China will never have. 

Coldest ambient temperature HSR is one China might hold for a while. Countries like Russia could beat them, but they probably won't.


* Arguably because (1) it is single-track, and some definitions of HSR require a double track line, and worse (2) while the line is designed for HSR traffic (250 km/h) no trains are currently going at that speed.


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## General Huo

Shangqiu-Hefei-Hangzhou HSR U/C around Xuancheng
商合杭高铁宣城郎溪路段航拍


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## tjrgx

*Cuijiaying Hanjiang River Bridge under construction in C China*

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-05/08/c_137164555_2.htm

Aerial photo taken on May 8, 2018 shows the construction site of Cuijiaying Hanjiang River Bridge of Wuhan-Shiyan high-speed railway in central China's Hubei Province. Construction of the 13-kilometer-long bridge is scheduled to be finished at the end of 2019. (Xinhua/Du Huaju)


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## tjrgx

*Yujiashan Tunnel successfully holed through in China's Hubei*

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-05/08/c_137164658.htm

Constructors work in the Yujiashan Tunnel in Shiyan, central China's Hubei Province, May 8, 2018. Part of the Wuhan-Shiyan high-speed railway, the 10,125-meter-long tunnel was successfully holed through on Tuesday and is to be opened to traffic by the end of 2019. (Xinhua/Xu Yunhua)


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## General Huo

Chengdu-Dujiangyan Intercity Rapid Line. Opened in 2010, speed 200km/h
主线全长65公里的成灌铁路


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## General Huo

Danjiangkou station on Wuhan-Shiyan HSR u/c
5月8日下午，汉十高铁丹江口南站建设现场，工人正在加快施工。该项目于2017年2月16日开工建设，地处土关垭镇金山村，建有南、北两个广场，规划范围约1.73平方公里，一期概算投资8亿元。汉十高铁起于武汉汉阳站，西北止于十堰北站，全长399公里，设计时速为350公里/小时，开通后从武汉到十堰仅需2个小时。图/记者 吴忠斌 特约记者 周家山 通讯员 冯友平


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## General Huo

Lianyungang-Yancheng HSR to open soon. Speed 200km/h

连云港至盐城铁路开始静态验收 
新建连云港至盐城铁路位于江苏省东北部，线路全长约234公里，共设赣榆北、赣榆、连云港、海州、董集、杨集、响水、滨海县、阜宁东、射阳及盐城北共11个车站，速度目标值200公里/小时。


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## tjrgx

*Track-laying completed for new high-speed railway in NE China*


----------



## ccdk




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## ccdk

Taiyuan - Jiaozuo PDL


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## Oasis-Bangkok

1AA-4 by wmteng, on Flickr

DSC01773_1525158939734 by wmteng, on Flickr


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## Ghostpoet

According to the Russian sources, 5 km tunnel was constructed on the Zhengzhou-Wanzhou high-speed railway. Any additional news?

http://www.gudok.ru/news/?ID=1419515

Ghostpoet


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## tjrgx

*Qifengshan tunnel at Henan section of Zhengzhou-Wanzhou HSR holed through*

http://www.xinhuanet.com/photo/2018-05/14/c_129872093.htm


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## General Huo

Ganjiang Bridge for Nanchang-Ganzhou HSR is closed
昌赣高铁泰和赣江特大桥顺利合龙

5月16日，南昌至赣州铁路客运专线（简称“昌赣高铁”）泰和赣江特大桥顺利合龙、全桥贯通，这标志着昌赣高铁建设又一重点控制性工程被攻克。昌赣高铁泰和赣江特大桥位于江西泰和县境内，全长6.839公里，共203跨，主桥416米。它与既有京九线相距仅25米，且处于通航河道上方施工，具有施工难度大、安全风险高等特点，是全线的控制性工程之一。刘占昆 摄


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## General Huo

Zhengzhou-Wanzhou HSR u/c
郑万高铁河南禹州段无砟轨道正在展开大面积施工


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## General Huo

Jiaozhouwan Bridge for Qingdao-Lianyungang HSR. The bridge is 8.9 km long.
胶州湾跨海铁路大桥顺利合龙


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## lawdefender

On June 27, 2017, the “Tracking Rating Report of Hebei Jiantou Traffic Investment Co., Ltd. in 2017” issued by China Chengxin Rating Company showed that *as of the end of 2016, the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway transport revenue was 26.308 billion yuan and the profit was 9.527 billion yuan.*

http://new.qq.com/omn/20180417/20180417A1G5TN.html


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## lawdefender

Jiangsu Communications Holdings Co., Ltd. holds 17% and 10.72% of the shares of Shanghai-Nanjing high-speed rail and Nanjing-Hangzhou high-speed rail respectively.* According to its 2014-2015 financial data disclosure, the operating income of Shanghai-Nanjing high-speed railway in 2014 was 3.135 billion yuan and net profit was 1.42 billion yuan. In 2015, the operating income was 3.361 billion yuan and the net profit was 641 million yuan. After a loss of 380 million yuan in 2014, the Nanjing-Hangzhou high-speed rail company turned losses into profits and its net profit was 101 million yuan in 2015.*

http://www.nbd.com.cn/articles/2016-07-22/1024290.html


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## lawdefender

*China Railway Corporation Income Statement 2017*

https://www.shclearing.com/xxpl/cwbg/nb/201805/t20180503_377251.html

Freight Revenues : RMB 316.028 billions
Passengers Revenues: RMB 319.746 billions

*Profit after Tax: RMB 1.819 billions*
-----------------------------------------------------

*Total Assets : RMB 7648.387 billions
Total Liabilities: RMB 4987.850 billions*


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## General Huo

Hefei-Anqing HSR u/c
合安高铁


----------



## General Huo

Zhengzhou-Wanzhou HSR u/c in Hubei


----------



## ccdk




----------



## Pansori

Traveled with a CR400AF Fuxing train on the Beijing-Shanghai HSR couple of weeks ago. Here's my attempt to do the coin trick at top speed with a Lithuanian €1 coin. I couldn't believe it actually worked. The coin would drop at a slightest interuption such as passing points or another train from the opposite direction, or sometimes at random. But the point is that it can actually stay up unsupported from any side for an extended period of time which could not be replicated on any other train anywhere in the world outside China.






I must say I was really impressed with the train. Comfort, interior (and exterior) design, speed, noise level, everything. Without a doubt the best high-speed railway service in the world today.

P.S. I actually forgot the coin in the train. If anyone by any chance found it, you can keep it


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## cheehg

Pansori said:


> Traveled with a CR400AF Fuxing train on the Beijing-Shanghai HSR couple of weeks ago. Here's my attempt to do the coin trick at top speed with a Lithuanian €1 coin. I couldn't believe it actually worked. The coin would drop at a slightest interuption such as passing points or another train from the opposite direction, or sometimes at random. But the point is that it can actually stay up unsupported from any side for an extended period of time which could not be replicated on any other train anywhere in the world outside China.
> 
> 
> 
> I must say I was really impressed with the train. Comfort, interior (and exterior) design, speed, noise level, everything. Without a doubt the best high-speed railway service in the world today.
> 
> P.S. I actually forgot the coin in the train. If anyone by any chance found it, you can keep it


looks like you travel to China often. From July 1, CR will add more express HS services with less stops and also increases the speed limit of few lines designed for 250 km/h top but now limited to 200 km/h. The fastest service from Shanghai to Wuhan now is less than 4 hours, cutting 30 mins.


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## ccdk

Yinchuan-Xi'an / 银西铁路甘宁段马坊沟特大桥正在加紧施工
http://www.nx.xinhuanet.com/2018-05/28/c_1122900468.htm


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## weikiat82

ccdk said:


> Yinchuan-Xining / 银西铁路甘宁段马坊沟特大桥正在加紧施工
> http://www.nx.xinhuanet.com/2018-05/28/c_1122900468.htm


I couldn't seem to find this project route, and it seems the 西 in 银西铁路 might refer to Xi'an instead of Xining. The reference to 甘宁段 probably refers to the provinces the route runs through (Gansu and Ningxia). Anyone can confirm?


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## ccdk

^^ You are absolutely correct. Mistake amended


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## cheehg

weikiat82 said:


> I couldn't seem to find this project route, and it seems the 西 in 银西铁路 might refer to Xi'an instead of Xining. The reference to 甘宁段 probably refers to the provinces the route runs through (Gansu and Ningxia). Anyone can confirm?


I think because Gansu and Ningxia belong to CR Lanzhou so sometimes different media use the different project names. and also this bridge happens on the borders of the two provinces.


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## General Huo

Beijing-Xiong'an Intercity HSR u/c
京雄城际铁路


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## General Huo

Datong Zhangjiakong HSR starts laying tracks
6月1日，山西天镇,随着首对500米长轨安全平稳铺设到轨道道床上，大同至张家口高速铁路（大张高铁）全线进入铺轨阶段。


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## FM 2258

All this HSR construction makes me wonder if this will completely kill the domestic flight industry in China.


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## General Huo

High-speed railway bridge swivels into position in Henan, China

28,000 tons! High-speed railway bridge swivels into position in Henan, China within an hour. The 40 m-high bridge is constructed above two other busy railway lines.


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## General Huo

Don't worry. China is also building and expanding airports everywhere. :cheers:

http://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/Pages/2018-02-01-01.aspx



FM 2258 said:


> All this HSR construction makes me wonder if this will completely kill the domestic flight industry in China.


----------



## t2contra

mingrady said:


> re: #12358
> 
> 
> There must be a sudden and enormous pressure change when two high speed trains pass each other. That got be an engineering challenge considering there are over a thousand lives on the line.


It can't be so heavy as to topple a train. And so long as the doors are strongly secured, there should not be any risk to the passengers.


----------



## X666

mingrady said:


> re: #12358
> 
> 
> There must be a sudden and enormous pressure change when two high speed trains pass each other. That got be an engineering challenge considering there are over a thousand lives on the line.


As I understand it, there is a few extra inches in the loading gauge of high speed trains making a reasonable gap as they pass compared with conventional speed trains. You will also notice the shape of tunnels to be wider and more oval-shaped, to prevent creating a pressure vortex as the train enters or passes another.


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## xinxingren

*Kunming - Dali line to open July*



> Costs aside, a bullet train trip from Kunming's South Station to Dali will now be three times faster than by conventional railway. Cruising speeds for the electric multiple unit trains are expected to reach 200 kilometers per hour as they shuttle through eight stations — including a stop in Chuxiong (楚雄) — before eventually arriving at Dali Station, which is in the city of Xiaguan (下关).


https://www.gokunming.com/en/blog/item/4144/bullet_train_to_dali_to_begin_running_july_1

When is a bullet train not an HSR? And who's going to fill 30 trains/day on this route? Some wag in the blog noted 2hrs Kunming-Dali, but 2hrs plus Kunming suburbs - Kunming HSR station.


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## kunming tiger

45 minute ride from the center of the city to Kunming HSR station via metro.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

How many trains daily shall travel from Dali to beyond Kunming, to Guiyang, Shanghai, Beijing and Guangzhou?


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## Gusiluz

xinxingren said:


> https://www.gokunming.com/en/blog/item/4144/bullet_train_to_dali_to_begin_running_july_1
> 
> When is a bullet train not an HSR? And who's going to fill 30 trains/day on this route? Some wag in the blog noted 2hrs Kunming-Dali, but 2hrs plus Kunming suburbs - Kunming HSR station.


Each one has a criterion, for example the UIC includes this line as HSR. However it is a line for mixed traffic and 200 km/h, and I consider that 8 stations and two hours to travel 165 or 174 km (I do not know, it may be the new HSR and the distance) does not deserve to be considered HSR. I don't.
The line begins in Guangtong, north of Kunming.


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## General Huo

Zhengzhou-Wanzhou HSR u/c
郑万铁路经开2号特大桥正架梁施工

http://hn.chinaso.com/dyp//detail/20180622/1000200033078121529630545462453388_1.html


----------



## General Huo

Datong-Zhangjiakou high-speed railway under construction in N China

China's high-speed rail on fast track: Check out the amazing machine capable of laying 500-meter-long rails.


----------



## General Huo

Jinan-Shijiazhuang HSR and Jinan-Qingdao HSR meets at Jinan East Railway Staion which is u/c
http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2018-06-24/doc-iheirxye9740309.shtml


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## General Huo

Hefei-Anqing HSR u/c. Speed 350km/h
https://www.xuehua.us/2018/06/24/合安高铁跨319省道开始架梁/


----------



## ccdk

Informative video


----------



## ccdk

*Testing Begins on Driverless High-Speed Rail in Advance of 2022 Beijing Olympics*
https://www.thebeijinger.com/blog/2...high-speed-rail-advance-2022-beijing-olympics

Although we're still years away from the 2022 Winter Games, China has already begun testing a driverless high-speed rail system that will be put in place around the Beijing region in time for the Olympics.

China Railroad corporation conducted the automated test using a high-speed train leaving Shenyang, Liaoning bound for Heishan, Hebei on the Beijing-Shenyang railway line last Thursday. 

Similar to trials currently being conducted on self-driving cars, *a human driver is required to monitor the automated train in case of emergencies*. 

Train driver Zhang Kai likened himself to the train's "backup," telling China Daily that the automated system has freed up his hands so that he only has to look over the train's operation.










Described as "China's first smart railroad," the railway linking Beijing and Zhangjiakou – the twin host cities of the 2022 Olympic Games – will feature the new technology as well as a staff of service robots designed to carry luggage for passengers.

As seen in a CCTV livestream video, the automated test was performed on one of the 16 new models of the "Revival" high-speed train series, each measuring 414-meters-long and scheduled to begin servicing the public on Jul 1.

Experts say the new technology will improve safety on China's vast high-speed railway network.

"As the train speed will be raised to 350 kilometers per hour or even faster in the future, it requires a higher standard for safety control," said Institute of Railway and Urban Rail Transit of Tongji University professor Sun Zhang. "Man is not as reliable as machine in train operation, since man can be distracted by his emotions, health conditions, and other unexpected situations, which may pose a great danger to travelers' safety." 

*The driverless trains are reported to begin welcoming public passengers as early as next year with more tests to be performed up until September.*

China's first automated subway began operation in Beijing on the last day of 2017. The 14.4-kilometer-long Yanfang Line services nine stations in Beijing's southwestern area.

Meanwhile, other forms of automated public transportation have been appearing throughout China. Shanghai began testing its own driverless subway back in March while a new Chinese 30-meter-long automated hybrid bus/tram/train designed to drive itself on city roads made its debut last year.


----------



## General Huo

Nanchang-Ganzhou HSR u/c
http://www.797sun.com/html/news/201806/5162489_1.html


----------



## General Huo

Hongzhou-Huangshan HSR Fuyang Station u/c
http://www.zjol.com.cn/yuanchuang/201806/t20180626_7631898.shtml#p=1


----------



## chornedsnorkack

cheehg said:


> looks like you travel to China often. From July 1, CR will add more express HS services with less stops and also increases the speed limit of few lines designed for 250 km/h top but now limited to 200 km/h. The fastest service from Shanghai to Wuhan now is less than 4 hours, cutting 30 mins.


3:56. But only for trains terminating in Wuhan. The fastest train via Wuhan, G1772 to Changsha, still takes 4:21.


----------



## General Huo

Nanchang to Ganzhou HSR Aerial
航拍江西泰和高铁建设


----------



## General Huo

Aerial video: 90-meter-long high-speed railway bridge swivels into position

Two sections of a 4,500-ton railway bridge on Wednesday swiveled into position within 82 minutes in Xiangyang City, central China’s Hubei Province. The 90.1-meter bridge sections are part of a railway linking Zhengzhou in central China's Henan Province with Wanzhou in the southwestern municipality of Chongqing.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

A high speed railway has been opened between Guangzhou and Zhanjiang.
The 26 high speed trains take 2:57 to 3:38 to travel Guangzhou South to Zhanjiang West. 5 of the trains originate at Foshan West, and just 1 (G6127, trip time 6:05) in Changsha. No high speed train seems to proceed past Zhanjiang.
4 slow trains take 5:21 to 6:26, and these do proceed to Sanya and Haikou.


----------



## Woonsocket54

Shangqiu-Hangzhou HSR under construction









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/..._Shangqiu-Hangzhou_HSR_under_Construction.jpg

Tiaoxi Bridge North









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...SR_Tiaoxi_Bridge_North_under_Construction.jpg

Tiaoxi Bridge South









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...SR_Tiaoxi_Bridge_South_under_Construction.jpg


----------



## Gusiluz

chornedsnorkack said:


> A high speed railway has been opened between Guangzhou and Zhanjiang.
> The 26 high speed trains take 2:57 to 3:38 to travel Guangzhou South to Zhanjiang West. 5 of the trains originate at Foshan West, and just 1 (G6127, trip time 6:05) in Changsha. No high speed train seems to proceed past Zhanjiang.
> 4 slow trains take 5:21 to 6:26, and these do proceed to Sanya and Haikou.


Thanks for the news!

As I read here (May 8, 2018):


> The Jiangmen-Maoming section of the Jiangmen-Zhanjiang high-speed rail line was put on a test run in April.
> The Jiangmen-Zhanjiang section of the Shenzhen-Zhanjiang High-speed Railway runs 495 kilometers.
> The trip from Guangzhou to Zhanjiang will be cut to three hours from the present eight hours.
> The Jiangmen-Maoming section will be put into operation at the end of June, while the construction of the Shenzhen-Jiangmen section is still under way.


According to this news: Guangdong Chamhan Railway put into operation in the Cham Shan section:


> To Maoming Section, Maoming to Zhanjiang Railway Maoming to Huangliu, which has undergone electrification, and the newly constructed Zhanjiang Dongdao Railway Huangliao to Zhanxiong Section, with a total length of 357 kilometers and a design speed of 200 kilometers per hour.
> ...
> the first phase of the construction of the Shenzhen-Mao Railway was 266 kilometers long from Jiangmen to Maoming, with a total investment of approximately 29 billion yuan. Construction began on June 28th. After less than four years of intensive construction, it was completed in March this year. The Shenzhen-Mingmao section of the new Shenzhen-Mao Railway Phase II project is currently under construction and the project is currently under way.
> ...
> According to reports, after the opening of the Shenzhen-Zhanjiang section of the Shenzhen-Zhanjiang Railway, it will greatly reduce the time to reach Guangzhou in the western region. The fastest trains from Guangzhou to Maoming and Zhanjiang will run from the original 4 hours, 53 minutes, 7 hours and 56 minutes to 2 hours, 27 minutes and 2 hours and 59 minutes respectively.


I do not understand anything:


> According to reports, after the opening of the Shenzhen-Zhanjiang section of the Shenzhen-Zhanjiang Railway


I imagine it refers to the Shenzhen-Jiangmen section of the Shenzhen-Zhanjiang PDL, in about 2022.

I have pointed out that the Maoming-Zhanjiang section opened at 200 km/h for mixed traffic on december 28, 2013
Shenzhen-Jiangmen will be about 120 km.
I have pointed out that Jiangmen-Maoming are 265 km at 200 km/h and Maoming-Zhanjiang were 103 km (now they will be less) also at 200.



> The Jiangmen-Zhanjiang section of the Shenzhen-Zhanjiang High-speed Railway runs 495 kilometers.


I understand that the 495 km are between Shenzhen and Zhanjiang, even so 168 km/h for a line that is only new half, and only for 200 km/h does not seem possible. Something is wrong.

I add:
Here it says instead:


> The Jiangmen-Zhanjiang railway, measuring 357 kilometers in length with a designed speed of 200 kilometers per hour.
> ...
> The trips from Guangzhou to Maoming and Zhanjiang will be reduced to two hours and 27 minutes and two hours and 59 minutes from the present five hours and eight hours.


This seems more logical, although the average speed still seems too high.


----------



## lawdefender

Guangzhou south to Maoming, 336 kilometers, ticket cost :181 yuan, speed: 200 kilometers / hour.

Guangzhou south to the Chaoshan, 416 kilometers, ticket cost :179.5 yuan; speed : 250-300 km / h.

 Guangzhou south to Guilin North, 502 kilometers, ticket cost : 137.5 yuan; speed :250-300 km / h.

Shenzhen to Xiamen, 594 kilometers , ticket cost : 180 yuan; speed :300 kilometers / hour


----------



## damndynamite

At the end of 2017, there was 25,000 km of high speed rail in China. Is there any official source for what are the individual components counted towards this total.

Does it count upgraded track? Or does it only count newly constructed high speed rail lines?


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## Gusiluz

^^ Yes, well, I do not know official sources but I have my own list with new lines only for passengers (PDL) designed for 250 or 350 km/h; I also include metropolitan lines for 200 km/h with CRH trains. I do not include lines for mixed traffic at 200 km/h, and even less the upgraded lines (2,902 km on 12/31/2010).
According to my list at the end of 2017 there were 27,528 km.

Today there are 28,138 km: 10,155 km for 350 km/h and 17,983 km for 250 km/h.

Here is my last version of the month of June.


----------



## cheehg

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Yes, well, I do not know official sources but I have my own list with new lines only for passengers (PDL) designed for 250 or 350 km/h; I also include metropolitan lines for 200 km/h with CRH trains. I do not include lines for mixed traffic at 200 km/h, and even less the upgraded lines (2,902 km on 12/31/2010).
> According to my list at the end of 2017 there were 27,528 km.
> 
> Today there are 28,138 km: 10,155 km for 350 km/h and 17,983 km for 250 km/h.
> 
> Here is my last version of the month of June.


Changchun-Ulan Hot line is not a HS line. the line speed limit is 160 km/h.


----------



## damndynamite

Gusiluz said:


> Here is my last version of the month of June.


Thanks for this really detailed and accurate response. I became confused after scanning the Wikipedia page on the HSR network in China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#Upgraded_railways

As you can see the reader gets the impression that a significant part of the HSR network is upgraded track.


----------



## cheehg

damndynamite said:


> Thanks for this really detailed and accurate response. I became confused after scanning the Wikipedia page on the HSR network in China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#Upgraded_railways
> 
> As you can see the reader gets the impression that a significant part of the HSR network is upgraded track.


Gusiluz's list is all new built railways. some of them are 200km/h mixed new lines. but non of them is upgraded railway. If includes this, the total will be at least 4-5000 kms more. 

Hangzhou-Zhuzhou section of Hukun railway was almost built new by upgrading. The speed limit was 200 km/h back 2010. It is actually built same or better than Jinan-Qindao PDL, Which was also the part of upgrading program. But Jinan-Qindao line keeps the old lines so it became a PDL. Hangzhou-Zhuzhou upgrading demolished the old lines (part of them used for new line) to compensate the land. You can see in Zhejiang province section, all the stations were relocated. The line is very straight. Later when they built Shanghai-Kunming HSR, those stations are also used as HSR station instead of building new. 

After Hangzhou-Zhuzhou upgrading, Chinese railway realized it is very costly to upgrading an old line. with not much more money they can build a new line. So they start to build PDL or HSR instead of fixing the old lines.


----------



## ccdk

Aerial photo taken on July 14, 2018 shows the construction site of the Hanjiang River Bridge of Wuhan-Shiyan high-speed railway in Xiangyang City, central China's Hubei Province. The high-speed line will be put into operation in 2019. (Xinhua/Xie Yong)
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-07/15/c_137325827_5.htm


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## krisu99

(delete - wrong thread)


----------



## ccdk

*Operator of Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway Preparing for Listing*
https://www.caixinglobal.com/2018-0...-railway-preparing-for-listing-101305761.html

* China Railway Corp., the rail line’s largest shareholder, is using the listing as a pilot project to push forward its “asset securitization” plan amid Beijing’s national deleveraging campaign to reduce corporate debt
* Pressure from two other large shareholders also was a factor in the decision to float the unit

(Beijing) — The unit of the country’s railway operator responsible for the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed rail line is preparing for a listing, as the operator looks for funds to solve its debt problem, Caixin has learned.

Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway Co. Ltd., in which China Railway Corp. (CRC) is the largest shareholder with a 46% stake, has started to prepare a public flotation, multiple sources familiar with the matter told Caixin. It is not yet clear where the listing might take place.

Previously, CRC was not interested in listing the unit, as the Beijing-Shanghai rail line — one of the nation’s busiest — was not short of capital, the sources said. But CRC has now decided to use the unit as a pilot project to push forward its “asset securitization” plan amid Beijing’s national deleveraging campaign to reduce corporate debt, according to the sources.

China’s railway sector has seen a massive expansion over the last decade, as the nation built the world’s largest high-speed network. As of December, China has a total of 127,000 kilometers (78,900 miles) of tracks, of which 20% are high-speed lines.

However, this investment-led development has led to the rail operator accumulating large quantities of debt. As of March, CRC reported a total of 5.04 trillion yuan ($753.4 billion) in debt — up from 4.72 trillion yuan a year before, putting its debt-ratio to hit as high as 65%.
The Beijing-Shanghai rail line, which started operations in 2011, is one of the country’s few high-speed routes that have turned a profit. As the end of 2015, Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway recorded a net profit 6.5 billion yuan, with revenue of 23.4 billion yuan, according to Tianjin Railway Construction Investment Corp. Ltd., one of its shareholders.
CRC’s decision to float the unit was also due to pressure from two of its other shareholders — Ping An Asset Management Co. Ltd. and a national social security fund — which have a combined 20% stake in the company, according to the sources.

In April, CRC signed an agreement (link in Chinese) with the Shanghai Stock Exchange in which the latter said it will help CRC to carry out plans including “bond issuance and asset securitization.” That came just two months after CRC reached a similar deal with the Shenzhen stock exchange.


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## damndynamite

The Wikipedia article (excerpt below) explicitly lists upgraded lines as part of the commonly understood high speed rail network (the network of about 25,000 km of routes). Gusiluz's data shows pretty clearly that upgraded track couldn't possibly be part of the high speed rail network as commonly understood because newly built lines even exceed 25,000 km. But does anyone have a reference link that shows the high speed rail network as is commonly understood doesn't include upgraded rail? I'm asking because I'll fix the Wikipedia article but need a reference.



> China's conventional high-speed railway network is made up of five components:
> 
> upgraded pre-existing regular-speed rail lines to accommodate high-speed train sets,
> a national grid consisting of mostly passenger dedicated HSR lines (PDLs),
> regional HSR lines that connect major cities and national HSR lines,
> "intercity" HSR lines that connect cities and suburban townships within large metropolitan areas
> other newly built conventional rail lines, mostly in western China, that can carry high-speed passenger trains.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ It seems to me that you fix the Wikipedia, I did it too but I got tired of the trolls. 
Here is the page in Spanish, which I did almost completely, although I have not edited for a while: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alta_velocidad_ferroviaria_en_China

Here is the list of the UIC, sometimes we do not agree because it forgets some PDL and puts some new line for 200 and mixed traffic, but does not put conventional lines renewed. Of course that can only be known by comparing the list of renewed lines of Wikipedia and UIC list, but I think it will be enough.

UIC High Speed lines in the world. Updated 12th June 2018: https://uic.org/IMG/pdf/20180612a_high_speed_lines_in_the_world.pdf


----------



## cheehg

Chinese Railway Cor. only counts new built 200 km/h and up as HSR lines. Gusiluz's is closer to this "official" number. All the conventional railways, no matter the line condition are all limited to 160 km/h top speed. Although many lines were operating at 200 km/h before 2011, it is not considered HSR for CRC.


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## damndynamite

cheehg said:


> Chinese Railway Cor. only counts new built 200 km/h....


But do you have a reference for this? With Wikipedia, every statement has to be supported by a reference. A news link perhaps?


----------



## cheehg

damndynamite said:


> But do you have a reference for this? With Wikipedia, every statement has to be supported by a reference. A news link perhaps?



Gusiluz listed all the new lines put into service since the first one in 2003. He did add them up and I am sure he spent a lot time to get those information online. His list shows the total more than 27K kms. I just find one line should be not on the list but the others are fine. 

I won't trust media as most reporters just copy and paste.


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## Gusiluz

^^ Thanks for the confidence.
In fact, it has taken me a long time, and I did it because I got tired of erroneous lists.
My list, except that section that you discovered (thank you!) And some more that I have been able to escape, it only has larger metropolitan lines for 200 kmh that, in some cases, CRH does not count because they are not part of any of the 8 + 8 main lines.

In my previous message is the UIC as a source, although there are some divergences between your list (which start again every year, adding and subtracting lines that were in previous lists) and mine, which may have some error, but try to be consistent.


----------



## hkskyline

July 18, 2018 
*Test trains make trial runs in Heilongjiang*
China Daily _Excerpt_

Early on Monday, test train No 55001 left Harbin West Railway Station in Heilongjiang province to begin trial runs on the longest high-speed rail line in China's cold zone.

The new line, designed for trains that run up to 200 km/h, cuts travel time between Harbin and Jiamusi from seven hours to about two

The 343-kilometer line with 19 stops links Harbin to Jiamusi.

Construction began in July 2014 as one of the key projects in China's medium and long-term railway network plan. The country's railway network is expected to hit 175,000 km by 2025, up significantly from 127,000 km of operating track last year.

The line must withstand extreme low temperatures in winter, which poses major challenges to railway construction and the trains themselves.

"The railway builders looked into the experiences of high-speed railway line construction in relatively cold areas and used all the measures that they could come up with to ensure the safety of this project," said Cai Kelin, a China Railway Harbin Group official. "The CRH5A high-speed trains on the line are designed to withstand the climate in areas that may be hit by blizzards and temperatures as low as-40 C.

"Some sections of the bullet trains have been transformed," he said. "Then they can withstand adverse weather, such as strong winds, heavy rain, snow and fog."

"Different from the existing high-speed railway lines in the province－such as the Harbin-Dalian and Harbin-Qiqihar lines－the Harbin-Jiamusi high-speed railway is built through a mountainous area, which brings some difficulties for operating trains," said Yu Hailian, assistant engineer at the group's locomotive depot. "There are more curves, bridges and tunnels on the line."

"A total of 28 drivers participated in the test, which started on May 1," he said. "After repeated operations on the line, they have become quite familiar with it and can keep the train steady even through a 3,410-meter tunnel without slowing down."

The new line, designed for trains that run up to 200 km/h, cuts travel time between Harbin and Jiamusi from seven hours to about two. 

"The line is expected to go into service in September, which will greatly improve transportation and economic development in Harbin, Jiamusi and surrounding counties, especially for the three counties of Binxian, Yilan and Fangzheng," Cai said. "Residents in the three counties will welcome trains for the first time."


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> The new line, designed for trains that run up to 200 km/h, cuts travel time between Harbin and Jiamusi from seven hours to about two
> 
> The 343-kilometer line with 19 stops links Harbin to Jiamusi.
> 
> "The line is expected to go into service in September, which will greatly improve transportation and economic development in Harbin, Jiamusi and surrounding counties, especially for the three counties of Binxian, Yilan and Fangzheng," Cai said. "Residents in the three counties will welcome trains for the first time."


What shall be the travel time between Beijing and Jiamusi?
How does the route of Harbin-Jiamusi high speed railway compare with the route of Harbin-Jiamusi slow speed railway?


----------



## cheehg

For 343 km express train should be about 2h20m with 2 or 3 stops.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

cheehg said:


> For 343 km express train should be about 2h20m with 2 or 3 stops.


Yes, but Beijing-Harbin is 1249 km.
I see that there are now 20 slow trains daily Harbin-Jiamusi. Of which 3 come from Beijing.

How many direct high speed trains will be operating between Beijing and Jiamusi in September?


----------



## cheehg

You will know when it opens. At least 1.


----------



## ccdk

*Donghuayuan Tunnel Bored through along the Beijing-Zhangjiakou Line*
https://www.thepaper.cn/newsDetail_forward_2285793


----------



## Zaz965

bohai strait tunnel

















https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2095809917307865


----------



## Zaz965

^^
how many tunnel boring machine are they going to deploy? :dunno::dunno:








https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_boring_machine


----------



## Zaz965

high speed rail crossing xian








https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railway_High-speed


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## General Huo

China’s first 350 kph high-speed rail line turns 10 years old. Watch what has changed during the past decade on the line linking Beijing with Tianjin


----------



## General Huo

Tracklaying for a high-speed railway in China’s Inner Mongolia was completed on Tuesday. The tracks link the region’s capital of Hohhot with Zhangjiakou in north China’s Hebei Province. The line, which will enter service by the end of this year, will feature trains traveling up to 287 kilometers per hour. The use of bullet trains will reduce the journey time between Hohhot and Beijing from nine


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## General Huo

The Wufengshan Yangtze River Bridge is the world's first high-speed rail suspension bridge that also has the largest load capacity ever built. Expected to open to traffic in August 2020, the bridge is of great significance to further implementation of the One Belt And One Road initiative and the coastal development strategy.


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## General Huo

China launched its first homegrown high-speed railway 10 years ago, which links the capital Beijing to the northern port city of Tianjin. Now the country has the world's biggest high-speed railway network, totalling 25,000 kilometers. The figure will be increased further to 30,000 kilometers by 2020.


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## cheehg

There is an articular in RJ about this too.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...rates-a-decade-of-high-speed.html?channel=523


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## juicycoconuts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2xWrhGK90I


----------



## luhai

General Huo said:


> China launched its first homegrown high-speed railway 10 years ago, which links the capital Beijing to the northern port city of Tianjin. Now the country has the world's biggest high-speed railway network, totalling 25,000 kilometers. The figure will be increased further to 30,000 kilometers by 2020.




Well, I guess Qinshen PDL wasn’t counted towards HSR then. It was opened in 2003 at 200 km/h (increased to 250 km/hr in 2007), during testing, the ChinaStar trainset at archived 321 km/hr max speed on the tracks.


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## cheehg

luhai said:


> Well, I guess Qinshen PDL wasn’t counted towards HSR then. It was opened in 2003 at 200 km/h (increased to 250 km/hr in 2007), during testing, the ChinaStar trainset at archived 321 km/hr max speed on the tracks.


Qinshen is 250km/h HSR by design.
And the Chinese standard normally is higher than other HSR.
For distance between two tracks:
Chinese standard:
200km/h---4.4 m
250km/h---4.6 m
300km/h---4.8 m
350km/h---5.00 m
also the min. curve is larger. 

so they can upgrade at least 50km/h more if needed. I heard they are changing the standard to closer to international to reduce the construction cost. So it will be more comparable with other countries.


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## Gusiluz

luhai said:


> Well, I guess Qinshen PDL wasn’t counted towards HSR then. It was opened in 2003 at 200 km/h (increased to 250 km/hr in 2007), during testing, the ChinaStar trainset at archived 321 km/hr max speed on the tracks.


I can understand, to a certain extent, that they consider the HSR Shenyang-Qinhuangdao to be a test line and that the real HS started in 2008. 
Only up to a point, because the trains carried passengers.

But they have also forgotten about the Nanjing-Hefei, which entered service on April 18, 2008.


----------



## cheehg

Gusiluz said:


> I can understand, to a certain extent, that they consider the HSR Shenyang-Qinhuangdao to be a test line and that the real HS started in 2008.
> Only up to a point, because the trains carried passengers.
> 
> But they have also forgotten about the Nanjing-Hefei, which entered service on April 18, 2008.


The official claim is 10 years of 300km/h up high speed railway.
They had the technology to build the 200-250km/h level railways before this line but Beijing-Tianjin line is the first one designed for 300-350km/h. It was built with help of German.


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## FM 2258

^^

For some reason I thought the GuangShen Railway was the first high speed line in China. I took my first CRH ride on a CRH1 from Guangzhou East to Shenzhen(Luohu) back in 2010. Lovely ride.


----------



## Gusiluz

cheehg said:


> The official claim is 10 years of 300km/h up high speed railway.
> They had the technology to build the 200-250km/h level railways before this line but Beijing-Tianjin line is the first one designed for 300-350km/h. It was built with help of German.


Well, really started directly at 350 km/h, exceeding the 320 of France; at that time the maximum speed in Japan was 300 km/h (320 in 2013). On August 8 will return to 350.
On the occasion of the anniversary, they have not published something like this PDF of 84 pages in English on the 25th anniversary of the AVE in Spain?

My little contribution, PDL inaugurated every year:


It includes 861 km of metropolitan PDL for 200 km/h, although some are part of the 8 + 8 axes.

Comparison of traffic worldwide according to the UIC:


The number of passengers from Germany, Korea, France and Trenitalia (does not include Italo, exNTV, and the data are not updated since 2013: in 2016 there were 15.2 of Frecce and 4.8 of Italo) is the total made with the HS trains (ICE, KTX, TGV and Frecce) although the route is carried out by conventional lines; Japan includes Mini Shinkansen.
In the case of China, it is only the traffic on PDL, not counting the CRH trains on conventional lines; there were 65.2 in 2010 and 221.7 in 2013.


----------



## cheehg

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> For some reason I thought the GuangShen Railway was the first high speed line in China. I took my first CRH ride on a CRH1 from Guangzhou East to Shenzhen(Luohu) back in 2010. Lovely ride.


Guangshen railway is not a hsr. It is the upgrade of conventional railway. The 3,4th tracks maximum was 200 km/h at that time. But it is not all the way. Only a small section of the route is capable of 200km/h. Now it is limited to 160km/h as all the conventional railways.

But this railway was the test ground of Chinese hsr.


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## General Huo




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## General Huo

On Aug. 1, 2008, China inaugurated its first high-speed railway service, which was the Beijing-Tianjin high-speed railway line. By far, Zhang Ying, a train conductor, has been working on the intercity railway for ten years.


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## General Huo

Tracks have been laid completely for a new high-speed railway in north China. It will become another major high-speed passenger line in the country upon completion in 2019.


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## General Huo




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## keber

^^ And where is that?


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## General Huo

Zhengzhou, Henan. 

The new line is Zhengzhou-Wanzhou HSR. The existing line is Zhengzhou-Xi'an HSR. I guess the place is here. 34°41'25.94"N 113°45'59.34"E


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## xinxingren

General Huo said:


> New railway in south China province will benefit some 22 million people
> 
> A 357-km Jiangmen-Zhanjiang railway has commenced operations in south China's Guangdong Province.
> ......


I have on my Android phone an app called "Metroman" which displays maps of all the subway services in China, by city. A recent update added to the Settings menu an item "China Railway Map" which is a map of all HSR lines, current and planned or under construction. It includes all the InterCity (which I take as a misspelling of IntraCity) lines. I don't know how often this map is updated, but it still has Jiangmen-Zhaojiang greyed out as "future". It does however show the line Guigang-Xingye-Yulin as operational. 

It appears to show only PDL lines with an operating speed of 200km/hr minimum. Thus there is a line Kunming-KunmingNan-Yuxi, but nothing else west or northwest of Kunming. i.e. the line to Dali-Lijiang, and the new link Guangdong-Panzhihua-Emeishan are either not rated for 200km/hr running, or will be carrying mixed traffic, or both. There is no direct Chengdu-Kunming proposed line shown, but there is a line from Leshan-Xingwen-Guiyang.


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## cheehg

Your app cannot keep up the pace of hsr in China.


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## General Huo




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## General Huo




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## foxmulder

Amazing.


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## xinxingren

*HSR on Belt and Road?*



> The issue of creating the nearly 1,800-kilometer bullet line between the cities was discussed by China's consul general in Kolkata, Ma Zhanwu. He told reporters that if built, "It would only take a few hours to reach Kolkata from Kunming". Cost, environmental impact and the necessity of such a project were left undiscussed by the consul general.


https://www.gokunming.com/en/blog/item/4160/chinese_diplomat_proposes_bullet_train_to_india
https://www.businesstoday.in/curren...between-kunming-and-kolkata/story/282338.html


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## Short

xinxingren said:


> https://www.gokunming.com/en/blog/item/4160/chinese_diplomat_proposes_bullet_train_to_india
> https://www.businesstoday.in/curren...between-kunming-and-kolkata/story/282338.html


This is not too surprising, as it would be in line with developments to connect China with Myanmar. However this should be posted and be more suited in the ASIA | Pan Asian Railway Thread.


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## Ghostpoet

https://www.railjournal.com/passenger/main-line/china-completes-new-harbin-jiamusi-line




> China completes new Harbin – Jiamusi line
> A new 343km line from Harbin to Jiamusi in China’s Heilongjiang province has been completed, and is set to open on September 30.
> The line, which has a maximum speed of 200km/h, will reduce travel time between the two cities from six hours to two, with 19 stops along the route. Construction began in July 2014, with testing starting in May.
> Services will be operated by CRH5A EMUs, adapted for operation in severe weather and high altitude, as the region can be hit with blizzards and temperatures as low as -40oC.



Ghostpoet


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## chornedsnorkack

Ghostpoet said:


> Services will be operated by CRH5A EMUs, adapted for operation in severe weather and high altitude, as the region can be hit with blizzards and temperatures as low as -40oC.


The adaptation to high altitude will be not used. Sungari Valley is at a low altitude.

What will be the trip time Beijing-Jiamusi?


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## General Huo




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## Sopomon

General Huo said:


>


Nothing quite like a tangle of giant concrete viaducts to really spruce up the natural beauty of those mountains!


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## xinxingren

chornedsnorkack said:


> The adaptation to high altitude will be not used. Sungari Valley is at a low altitude.


CHR often describe these north-eastern lines as "alpine" because of the low temperatures :storm:


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## General Huo




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## General Huo




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## General Huo

https://news.xmnn.cn/xmnn/2018/09/28/100432609.shtml


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## General Huo




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## General Huo




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## Sunfuns

That's an impressive map, but is there also one which clearly differentiates between lines in service, lines under constructions and lines in planning?


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## tjrgx

Sunfuns said:


> That's an impressive map, but is there also one which clearly differentiates between lines in service, lines under constructions and lines in planning?


There is one in Chinese: https://docdro.id/ERcF25e

From [email protected]: https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/lbN3CdfnQIO1Q4pTvyQ-uQ


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## cheehg

Sunfuns said:


> That's an impressive map, but is there also one which clearly differentiates between lines in service, lines under constructions and lines in planning?


I saw this kind of map every year. I think someone will update it after Jan.05. Here is the list of the sections UC and Planned. Other sections or lines is in service.
1 Tianjing-Weifang, Yancheng-Shanghai(UC), Shanghai-Hangzhou, Zhanjiang-beihai(UC)

3 Chende-Beijing (UC)

4 Branch line: Hefei-Hangzhou (UC), Weifang-huaian, Huaian-Nantong (UC)
5 Hohhot-Xiangyang(UC), Xiangyang-Yongzhou
6 Beijing-Shijiazhou, Chengdu-Yibin(UC), Kunming-Chongqing(UC)
7 Baotou-Chongqing, Yinchuan-Xi'an(UC), Guiyang-Nanning(UC), Beihai-Haikou
8 Xining-Chengdu(UC), Yibin-Guiyang(UC)
10 Lianyungang-Xuzhou(UC)
11 branch: Dazhou-Wanzhou, Wanzhou-Wuhan(UC), Jiujiang-Anqing(UC), Nanjing-Shanghai(UC)
13 Manzhouli-Qiqihar
14 Baotou-Lanzhou, Beijing-Zhangjiakou(UC)
15 Chongqing-Changsha(UC), Changsha-Ganzhou

above UC sections should be in service before 2023 and other before 2030.
But this map doesn't including all the HSR lines. It is the map for 16 main corridors. Many other under province plans are not showing.


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## Sunfuns

Helps a bit, but I wish someone were to make a true map in English with all HSR in operation right now regardless of under which plan they were built plus those under construction and to be finished within 3-4 years. 2030 is of lesser interest, lots of things can still change before then...


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## cheehg

Sunfuns said:


> Helps a bit, but I wish someone were to make a true map in English with all HSR in operation right now regardless of under which plan they were built plus those under construction and to be finished within 3-4 years. 2030 is of lesser interest, lots of things can still change before then...


I will post a link if I see an updated one.


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## Short

cheehg said:


> I saw this kind of map every year. I think someone will update it after Jan.05. Here is the list of the sections UC and Planned. Other sections or lines is in service.
> 1 Tianjing-Weifang, Yancheng-Shanghai(UC), Shanghai-Hangzhou, Zhanjiang-beihai(UC)
> 
> 3 Chende-Beijing (UC)
> 
> 4 Branch line: Hefei-Hangzhou (UC), Weifang-huaian, Huaian-Nantong (UC)
> 5 Hohhot-Xiangyang(UC), Xiangyang-Yongzhou
> 6 Beijing-Shijiazhou, Chengdu-Yibin(UC), Kunming-Chongqing(UC)
> 7 Baotou-Chongqing, Yinchuan-Xi'an(UC), Guiyang-Nanning(UC), Beihai-Haikou
> 8 Xining-Chengdu(UC), Yibin-Guiyang(UC)
> 10 Lianyungang-Xuzhou(UC)
> 11 branch: Dazhou-Wanzhou, Wanzhou-Wuhan(UC), Jiujiang-Anqing(UC), Nanjing-Shanghai(UC)
> 13 Manzhouli-Qiqihar
> 14 Baotou-Lanzhou, Beijing-Zhangjiakou(UC)
> 15 Chongqing-Changsha(UC), Changsha-Ganzhou
> 
> above UC sections should be in service before 2023 and other before 2030.
> But this map doesn't including all the HSR lines. It is the map for 16 main corridors. Many other under province plans are not showing.


To complicate things further, the already built line (but not mapped) between Chongqing and Lanzhou, has had high speed service only between Chongqing and Guangyuan since it was built, where this line meets the Chengdu-Xian HSR.

The rest of the line was used mostly for conventional passenger trains and long distance freight. However as of January 5th, 2019 there will be two pairs D trains (D751-D754) running the full length of the line between Chongqing and Lanzhou. The intended rolling stock will be CR200J sets.

Fares and timetable are still TBA.


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## cheehg

Short said:


> To complicate things further, the already built line (but not mapped) between Chongqing and Lanzhou, has had high speed service only between Chongqing and Guangyuan since it was built, where this line meets the Chengdu-Xian HSR.
> 
> The rest of the line was used mostly for conventional passenger trains and long distance freight. However as of January 5th, 2019 there will be two pairs D trains (D751-D754) running the full length of the line between Chongqing and Lanzhou. The intended rolling stock will be CR200J sets.
> 
> Fares and timetable are still TBA.


Lanzhou to Guangyuan section speed limit is 160km/h because there are many freight trains, especially those from Chengdu and Chongqing to Europe. no.15 corridor supposed from Lanzhou via Chongqing to Xiamen. CR200J is to replace the classical loco-coach format. The chair cars will be more comfortable. the layout is same as CRH. The price should be between Z and D.


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## Short

cheehg said:


> Lanzhou to Guangyuan section speed limit is 160km/h because there are many freight trains, especially those from Chengdu and Chongqing to Europe. no.15 corridor supposed from Lanzhou via Chongqing to Xiamen. CR200J is to replace the classical loco-coach format. The chair cars will be more comfortable. the layout is same as CRH. The price should be between Z and D.


Regardless, it will certainly be better than the trains I have had to take on this route before and previous to it being built. I will be able to get to western Gansu from Chongqing, in the same time that I originally needed to get there from Lanzhou itself.

Once the Chengdu-Xining and Chengdu-Lanzhou lines come into full effect, I am sure there will be further improvements.


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## NCT

cheehg said:


> China is a big country and also many low income population. Long distance classical trains are still needed for many more years. Chinese passengers still prefer direct trains than transfer. most people still rather waiting for a few direct trains. It needs time when they are more sophisticated and understand the the method of logistic efficiency of the Points and nods system.
> 
> Last year I made a trip from Beijing to Pingyao in Shanxi. I went to Beijing railway station to buy ticket. They told me all the trains to Pingyao and Taiyuan were sold. So I asked if there were tickets available from BJ-shijiazhuang, SJZ-Taiyuan and Taiyuan to Pingyao. She was amazed I could find this way and the tickets were all available if I used this method. The train for The last section from Tiayuan to Pingyao was actually the direct train from Beijing to Pingyao. Because I took the two express trains from BJ-JSZ and JSZ-TY, I still had time for my connection. You see even the railway employees had no such idea of connection.
> 
> recently the China Railway online ticket app has the routing planing to suggest the possible connections if there is no direct train or sold out. you can walk up stairs from platform to entry the waiting hall for your next trains in most stations.
> 
> Guangdong is the place where most trains terminal in Guangzhou. There are many complains and local government keeping push for more direct trains from Zhuhai and Shenzhen to the North.
> 
> CR Shanghai had a plan before to push all the classical trains terminal in Hangzhou and Nanjing so they can use Shanghai and Shanghai South for HSR. But the resistance are huge. The new plan is to convert Songjiang south station as a terminal for classical trains from Hangzhou direction. Re-route conventional railway from Songjiang station to Songjiang south. Songjing south to Shanghai south part of railway will be converted to HSR. with branch to Pudong airport.
> 
> In Europe, we see more and more direct train routing, such as from south France to north bypass Paris.


It's all very well talking about local preferences towards direct trains, but this has to be accompanied with an acknowledgement that this comes at a cost.

There is clearly a lot of latent demand and there are enough parts of the network that are operating well below infrastructure capacity. Surely, the ultimate aim of the railway is to maximise ridership and facilitate maximum economic transformation? People need to be made clear that there is a choice between changing passenger behaviour, or spending more billions on new infrastructure for the same uplift in capacity, or even forgoing that capacity altogether.

Passenger behaviour can be changed - and that change has to come from the rail industry itself. People don't like change because this is not facilitated or encouraged by the industry. It's only the soft aspects that are lacking - signs and departure boards on platforms designed for interchange passengers, and flexible and accessible route planning algorithms to the end user. These things are trivial to implement compared with the huge progress China has made in hard engineering. The rapid expansion of HSR has shown that Chinese passengers are very adaptable - cultural change around changing trains in my view is a minor hurdle to overcome. Timetable rationalisation with enabling changes is guaranteed to increase ridership.

The new infrastructure that is already there is capable of handling much higher volumes than it's currently handling. 10+ trains per hour per direction per line, 16 cars (1000 passengers) per train, platform space and circulation space per platform at new Chinese stations are all well in line with, and in most cases much more generous than typical European parameters. We are well past the point where the physical infrastructure is the major constraint. Culture and mindset are now well behind the physical infrastructure capability, and the conversation needs to start now to address that issue. 

I had already addressed the issue of low-income population. Low prices don't have to come in the form of an inferior product. The best way to offer low prices is maximise supply and reduce unit costs, and rationalising the timetable achieves just that. The practicalities around pricing strategies are are again a trivial matter.


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## Short

NCT said:


> It's all very well talking about local preferences towards direct trains, but this has to be accompanied with an acknowledgement that this comes at a cost.
> 
> There is clearly a lot of latent demand and there are enough parts of the network that are operating well below infrastructure capacity. Surely, the ultimate aim of the railway is to maximise ridership and facilitate maximum economic transformation? People need to be made clear that there is a choice between changing passenger behaviour, or spending more billions on new infrastructure for the same uplift in capacity, or even forgoing that capacity altogether.
> 
> Passenger behaviour can be changed - and that change has to come from the rail industry itself. People don't like change because this is not facilitated or encouraged by the industry. It's only the soft aspects that are lacking - signs and departure boards on platforms designed for interchange passengers, and flexible and accessible route planning algorithms to the end user. These things are trivial to implement compared with the huge progress China has made in hard engineering. The rapid expansion of HSR has shown that Chinese passengers are very adaptable - cultural change around changing trains in my view is a minor hurdle to overcome. Timetable rationalisation with enabling changes is guaranteed to increase ridership.
> 
> The new infrastructure that is already there is capable of handling much higher volumes than it's currently handling. 10+ trains per hour per direction per line, 16 cars (1000 passengers) per train, platform space and circulation space per platform at new Chinese stations are all well in line with, and in most cases much more generous than typical European parameters. We are well past the point where the physical infrastructure is the major constraint. Culture and mindset are now well behind the physical infrastructure capability, and the conversation needs to start now to address that issue.
> 
> I had already addressed the issue of low-income population. Low prices don't have to come in the form of an inferior product. The best way to offer low prices is maximise supply and reduce unit costs, and rationalising the timetable achieves just that. The practicalities around pricing strategies are are again a trivial matter.


You are correct to say that people's habits and thoughts can be changed, but you have to remember that this entire network is only 10 years old. For most of the system, it is much less than that, both for the passengers and the staff running the whole network. It is in this light that, old habits, thoughts and feelings will prevail. You can not impose changes that run counter to these, not without pushback and failing consumer sentiment. Plus add to this, various levels of government and other bureaucratic influences on all railway services, change will always take a long time to occur.

The business scene in China is littered with the carcasses of many Western businesses, who thought China would be easy money. To impose a business model from their homeland, ready to reap in the cash, only to fail because they did not factor in Chinese habits and feelings. Such as Lowes, setting up massive hardware stores, when the average person does not do DIY because it is simpler to hire a local labourer.

There are many things that drive me crazy when I am travelling around China. Local habits and different logic in thinking that baffles me. It is easy for myself to see solutions, outside of the square. However as I have been told many times, this is China! So in the end, it is for themselves to sort out and I become more flexible in my acceptance.


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## Rixos

very good map :cheers:


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## cheehg

Short said:


> You are correct to say that people's habits and thoughts can be changed, but you have to remember that this entire network is only 10 years old. For most of the system, it is much less than that, both for the passengers and the staff running the whole network. It is in this light that, old habits, thoughts and feelings will prevail. You can not impose changes that run counter to these, not without pushback and failing consumer sentiment. Plus add to this, various levels of government and other bureaucratic influences on all railway services, change will always take a long time to occur.
> 
> The business scene in China is littered with the carcasses of many Western businesses, who thought China would be easy money. To impose a business model from their homeland, ready to reap in the cash, only to fail because they did not factor in Chinese habits and feelings. Such as Lowes, setting up massive hardware stores, when the average person does not do DIY because it is simpler to hire a local labourer.
> 
> There are many things that drive me crazy when I am travelling around China. Local habits and different logic in thinking that baffles me. It is easy for myself to see solutions, outside of the square. However as I have been told many times, this is China! So in the end, it is for themselves to sort out and I become more flexible in my acceptance.


Well said. I often discuss the issues with Chinese but then I realized that old habits are not that easy to change. Eventually they will but it takes time. 
Also there is no other country in the world has similar travel pattern. UK is centered in London. China is a bit like Germany but in bigger scale. Chinese typically much accept longer travel hours. There are many passengers travel by HSR for more than 5 hour trip. 

I remember once CRC made a transfer arrangement in Tianjin because in the winter the cold climate special train sets are needed to go to North East. They want maximum the usage of cold-climate train-set. The train run from Shanghai to Harbin but everybody has to change the train in Tianjin West station at the same platform. Shanghai-Tianjin train used regular train set and Tianjin to Harbin used special train-set. But it stopped short because too many passengers complained. the ridership of this train was also decreased.

I know CRC has similar arrangement in Xining for the trains go to Lhasa. This is relatively well accepted. The reason is they don't have other choice. So maybe when the time comes there is no other choice. The passengers have to accept it.


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## NCT

The Chinese aren't some sort of mythical creatures with mythical habits that others don't understand, and don't automatically assume I speak as an outsider.

That the system is only 10 years old and HSR already has such a strong market speaks volumes about just how adaptable the Chinese are to change. The rapid withdrawal of classic services (i.e. removal of cheap fares) represented a much more significant disruption than anything I'm proposing here. What we know is this:

- Relatively few trains call at the intermediate stations on the HSLs
- The number of direct journey opportunities beyond the immediate provincial capital for each origin-destination pair from such stations is at best half a dozen a day (see Jiashan Nan to anywhere west of Hangzhou)
- Many lines have trains operating at 100% capacity at nearly all times
- Not only that, there is clear suppressed demand as it's common for tickets to be booked up weeks in advance - the Shanghai - Kunming line being the prime example.

In the examples given above, if the only change is introducing a further interchange then of course passengers are going to moan. The prizes for rationalising services include:
- at least a 50% uplift in capacity
- regular, identical travel opportunities every half hour
- Journey times sped up by typically 1 hour
- Booking platforms and stations designed for interchange passengers
I do not see how Chinese passengers would not see these as a massive improvement in quality. 

Yes, there will always be those with their stubborn preferences, but they are very small in numbers, and the pool of new passengers waiting in the wings who will take up the new capacity and vastly superior journey qualities will be an order of magnitude larger.

So I think that the 'old habits die hard' line is massively overcooked. The next reason is political inteference. This is not a justification - it is a defence.

If the defence is that 'I don't disagree with your vision for the end state, this is simply a transition phase we are going through', then the question has to be is the infrastructure appropriately configured for the end state, and whether we are moving towards this end state. I'm not sure the answer to these questions are yes. The longer we leave it the more difficult it will be to return to the path towards that end state.

The timetable should be at the heart of infrastructure design - building infrastructure based on ill-informed political wrangling and only later working out what kind of timetable you can operate is fundamentally the wrong order of doing things, as any railway planner worth their salt will tell you. We are deviating from the optimal path from day 0 and not even recognising the problem.


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## cheehg

I am saying this not because I prefer this way. For me the Japanese way is much better combination of 3 different type of trains. 
I think the resistance is mainly from the railway company. They used to ignore the small stations and prefer using long distance trains to cover the short distance needs. It is not the most efficient way in logistics.


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## Short

NCT said:


> The Chinese aren't some sort of mythical creatures with mythical habits that others don't understand, and don't automatically assume I speak as an outsider.
> 
> That the system is only 10 years old and HSR already has such a strong market speaks volumes about just how adaptable the Chinese are to change. The rapid withdrawal of classic services (i.e. removal of cheap fares) represented a much more significant disruption than anything I'm proposing here. What we know is this:
> 
> - Relatively few trains call at the intermediate stations on the HSLs
> - The number of direct journey opportunities beyond the immediate provincial capital for each origin-destination pair from such stations is at best half a dozen a day (see Jiashan Nan to anywhere west of Hangzhou)
> - Many lines have trains operating at 100% capacity at nearly all times
> - Not only that, there is clear suppressed demand as it's common for tickets to be booked up weeks in advance - the Shanghai - Kunming line being the prime example.
> 
> In the examples given above, if the only change is introducing a further interchange then of course passengers are going to moan. The prizes for rationalising services include:
> - at least a 50% uplift in capacity
> - regular, identical travel opportunities every half hour
> - Journey times sped up by typically 1 hour
> - Booking platforms and stations designed for interchange passengers
> I do not see how Chinese passengers would not see these as a massive improvement in quality.
> 
> Yes, there will always be those with their stubborn preferences, but they are very small in numbers, and the pool of new passengers waiting in the wings who will take up the new capacity and vastly superior journey qualities will be an order of magnitude larger.
> 
> So I think that the 'old habits die hard' line is massively overcooked. The next reason is political inteference. This is not a justification - it is a defence.
> 
> If the defence is that 'I don't disagree with your vision for the end state, this is simply a transition phase we are going through', then the question has to be is the infrastructure appropriately configured for the end state, and whether we are moving towards this end state. I'm not sure the answer to these questions are yes. The longer we leave it the more difficult it will be to return to the path towards that end state.
> 
> The timetable should be at the heart of infrastructure design - building infrastructure based on ill-informed political wrangling and only later working out what kind of timetable you can operate is fundamentally the wrong order of doing things, as any railway planner worth their salt will tell you. We are deviating from the optimal path from day 0 and not even recognising the problem.


I fully agree with the need for reforms and changes, but you are shouting against the wind to expect anything soon. It is like wishing for the USA to introduce an effective and more than needed reform in their passenger rail network, it is not going to happen in a hurry.

While the current situation may not make sense for some people, it conforms to the accepted logic of the nation. Another factor to consider is the need to rapidly build the mammoth network, using cookie cutter designs and standards. Thus what is thought out at the beginning, this is soon replicated across the whole of the network. It also makes changes harder to implement because the effort and cost becomes greater, regardless of what mistakes are found out.


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## cheehg

They actually try to run some express such as 350km/h Beijing to Shanghai/Hangzhou stopping only 1-2 stations. But without clear stopping pattern, it actually create a very complicated system for dispatchers. So they have to smooth the running time in certain blocks so the result is although you may see 60 plus trains a day in one direction but every one takes about same amount of time. 
Smaller stations have very irregular stopping pattern. sometime 3 trains in 1 hour and sometimes no train in 3 hours. 

Also it is less flexible for passengers. when there are massive delay, it is less flexible for passengers to switch to next trains. 

CRC is a very old fashion institution. It used to be managed as semi-military style. So it is always a bit slow in change. Their management style is still based on how to easy their operation than how to serve the passenger better. 

With big data and modern technology, it is not that difficult to analyse the passenger flow and then create train routes with fixed interval and stop pattern.


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## chornedsnorkack

cheehg said:


> I remember once CRC made a transfer arrangement in Tianjin because in the winter the cold climate special train sets are needed to go to North East. They want maximum the usage of cold-climate train-set. The train run from Shanghai to Harbin but everybody has to change the train in Tianjin West station at the same platform. Shanghai-Tianjin train used regular train set and Tianjin to Harbin used special train-set. But it stopped short because too many passengers complained. the ridership of this train was also decreased.


What was the outcome then? Direct trains to Shanghai, cold climate trains travelling to Shanghai after all, or service stopped altogether?


cheehg said:


> I know CRC has similar arrangement in Xining for the trains go to Lhasa. This is relatively well accepted. The reason is they don't have other choice. So maybe when the time comes there is no other choice. The passengers have to accept it.


They have a choice. Use a plane for Lhasa rather than the deliberately inconvenient trains.

Use the advantages of trains. Unlike a plane, a train can be direct and make intermediate stops at small stations at modest cost.


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## cheehg

chornedsnorkack said:


> What was the outcome then? Direct trains to Shanghai, cold climate trains travelling to Shanghai after all, or service stopped altogether?
> 
> They have a choice. Use a plane for Lhasa rather than the deliberately inconvenient trains.
> 
> Use the advantages of trains. Unlike a plane, a train can be direct and make intermediate stops at small stations at modest cost.


You always ask wired questions. 

In the winter time the HSR from Shanghai to Harbin will be shorten to Shenyang. 

People take trains to Lhasa to experience the train travel and also the scene of the plateau.


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## NCT

I just put a few hours of Shanghai - Nanjing timetables into some spreadsheets to see what they looked like (times in italics and grey are estimated passing times):

Beijing - Shanghai High Speed Line (Shanghai to Nanjing section);

Jinghu SH_NJ_1 by Constant Invader, on Flickr

Jinghu SH_NJ_2 by Constant Invader, on Flickr

Jinghu SH_NJ_3 by Constant Invader, on Flickr

Jinghu SH_NJ_4 by Constant Invader, on Flickr

Jinghu SH_NJ_5 by Constant Invader, on Flickr

Shanghai Nanjing Passenger Dedicated Line:

Huning SH_NJ_1 by Constant Invader, on Flickr

Huning SH_NJ_2 by Constant Invader, on Flickr

Huning SH_NJ_3 by Constant Invader, on Flickr


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## Negjana

Where do you gather information for these spreadsheets?


Are there any european-style timetables for chinese high speed rail lines?


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## General Huo




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## General Huo




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## General Huo




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## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> Just for a bit of fun - my alternative standard hour Shanghai - Beijing line timetable:
> 
> Red and blue shading denote trains leaving and joining the Beijing - Shanghai HSL respectively.
> 
> Only stops shown on the main line are served - most trains make minimal intermediate stops. All trains stop at Nanjing South and Xuzhou East if passing through. Stops off the main line are not generally shown.
> 
> Requires some infrastructure modifications - mainly connector tracks to the classic lines at Cangzhou and Taishan, and 4-tracking between Tianjin South station and the connector to Tianjin West (without which the parts of the timetable highlighted by red boxes don't work).


Would you explain - which service pattern has most stops and longest travel time?


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## NCT

Service pattern is as follows:

Departing Nanjing South (using Nanjing South as Shanghai has different departure points. All call at Xuzhou East so not listed below):

xx09/39 Beijing South
xx12/42 Tianjin, calling at Tianjin South, Tianjin West. Extended to northeastern China as appropriate
xx15/45 Shijiazhuang or Qingdao, calling at Tianjin West where the service leaves the main line, onto Shiji or Jiqing lines
xx19/49 Jinan, may be extended to Qingdao via Jiaoji line
xx22 Zhengzhou, calling at Zhengzhou East
xx25 Xuzhou East via Bengbu South (diverging from main line), Bengbu, Guzhen, Su(4)zhou and Xuzhou (reversal before continuing to Xuzhou East)
xx52 Xi'an, calling at Zhengzhou East
xx55 Lanzhou, calling at Zhengzhou East and Xi'an North. Precise pattern west of Xi'an north may vary by hour for such a long-distance service
xx29/32/35 paths and those in the opposite half hour go off at Nanjing in the Hefei/Wuhan direction.

Arriving into Beijing South:
xx03/33 from Shanghai
00/30 from Hangzhou East (back extended from Ningbo or Wenzhou)
xx57 from Hefei (central) calling at Bengbu South
xx27 from Fuzhou (back extended from Xiamen etc), calling pattern not yet determined, but principal stations only (but could be one hour fast, one hour semi-fast)
xx53 from Bengbu South, calling at Bengbu, Guzhen, Suzhou, Xuzhou and Xuzhou East
xx50/20 from Xuzhou East, calling at Xuzhou, Zaozhuang West, Tengzhou, Yanzhou, Taishan (needs a connecting spur)
xx47/17 from Jinan (may be backextended from Qingdao via Jiaoji), calling at Jinan West before joining the main line
xx43/13 from Qingdao via Jiqing, calling at Jinan East
xx40/10 from Jinan, via the classic route, calling at Dezhou and Cangzhou (needs new spur)

The path that would get into Beijing South at xx23 is used for Zhengzhou - Jinan movements which are fairly popular at the moment. Same path may also be used for Jinan - Tianjin movements.

Journey times wise, Shanghai - Beijing is 4h33, Tianjin is similar, Jinan West is just over 3 so Qingdao should be just under 5. Xi'an is just shy of 6, Lanzhou about 8.

I've recently learnt that 3-minute headways are not a given on the Shanghai - Beijing line (currently observed minimum planning headway is 4 minutes). Also the points are only capable of 160km/h meaning diverging and converging train paths have to decelerate/accelerate for a significant distance on the main line, so they cannot be pathed just minimum headway away from neighbouring through paths. My timetable may have to be pared down to just 1 tph for some of the destination pairs ...


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## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> Journey times wise, Shanghai - Beijing is 4h33, Tianjin is similar, Jinan West is just over 3 so Qingdao should be just under 5. Xi'an is just shy of 6, Lanzhou about 8.


Do you mean same travel time for all trains between the same destinations?


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## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> Do you mean same travel time for all trains between the same destinations?


For the core services on the core route / network yes, for this is a clock-face timetable repeated every hour. All Beijing - Shanghai trains would be 4h33.

At the extremities of the network (out to Lanzhou for example) there may be more variations. Also because those journeys take such a long time the first paths of the day only arrive after mid-day (4am departure), meaning there is flexibility on how those morning paths are used. For example, before the first Lanzhou or Xi'an path arrives at Zhengzhou, those paths may be used by Zhengzhou peak extras. Or alternatively those early Lanzhou paths might come in as sleepers that departed from Lanzhou the night before on classic tracks and only joined HSL at Xuzhou when the overnight engineering window is over.


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## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> For the core services on the core route / network yes, for this is a clock-face timetable repeated every hour. All Beijing - Shanghai trains would be 4h33.


"Yes", but not actually required by "clockface timetable".

Some comparisons of what I mean...
Existing stations, counting from Beijing end - km from chosen starting point:

Beijing West - 0
Langfang - 59
Tianjin South - 131
Cangzhou South - 219
Dezhou East - 327
Jinan West - 419
And what I do next - though it´s the same line, restart numbering, for better comparability:

Jinan West - 0
Taian - 43
Qufu East - 114
Tengzhou East - 170
Zaozhuang - 206
Xuzhou East - 269
Suzhou East - 348
Bengbu South - 425
Dingyuan - 478
Chuzhou - 540
Nanjing South - 599
Again for the final stretch:

Nanjing South - 0
Zhenjiang South - 69
Danyang North - 94
Changzhou North - 126
Wuxi East - 183
Suzhou North - 209
Kunshan South - 241
Shanghai Hongqiao - 284
And some comparable lines:
Taiwan High Speed Rail:

Nangang - 0
Taipei - 9
Banqiao - 16
Taoyuan - 45
Hsinchu - 75
Miaoli - 108
Taichung - 169
Changhua - 197
Yunlin - 222
Chiayi - 255
Tainan - 317
Zuoying - 348
Tokaido Shinkansen

Tokyo - 0
Shinagawa - 7
Shin-Yokohama - 26
Odawara - 77
Atami - 95
Mishima - 111
Shin-Fuji - 135
Shizuoka - 167
Kakegawa - 211
Hamamatsu - 239
Toyohashi - 274
Mikawa-Anjo - 313
Nagoya - 342
Gifu-Hashima - 367
Maibara - 408
Kyoto - 476
Shin-Osaka - 515


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## NCT

Sorry, I don't get the point you are making?? What do those numbers represent? km from Station 1?


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## chornedsnorkack

And now getting to the point...
Look at the schedule from, say, Nangang to Zuoying.
The trip times after 7:00 are:
7:00 803 2:25
7:20 109 1:45
7:35 609 2:10
7:40 205 1:50
8:00 809 2:25
8:10 613 2:10
8:20 113 1:45
8:35 615 2:10
8:40 1209 1:50

Note - there are 4 different trip times, from 1:45 to 2:25 - but they recur next hour. And: all trains with same trip time make the same stops.


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## NCT

I see. The difference here is that the Taiwan and Japanese examples are both purely linear cases - there is only one major settlement at either end so only one major city - city OD pair to contend with. On the other hand Beijing - Shanghai line is one spine with many tentacles - it's many linear markets superimposed onto one.

Kyoto - Tokyo has 6 fast tph in the peaks, Nangang - Zuoying has 4 fast tph (2 fast at 1:45 and 2 semi-fast with 1:50). This is the extent of their fast markets - those line have the space to, and need to serve non-homonegous intermediate markets to pay for themselves. A mixed-running HSL can handle up to 12 tph.

Beijing - Shanghai is different. All the large city pairs I'm only giving 2 tph which in the long run is actually on the stingy side. These homogeneous markets leave absolutely no space for additional non-homogeneous markets (i.e. the intermediate stations). If you try inserting even one stop into any of my trains you'll see trains crashing into each other or you'll have to remove 2 trains in the process. Unless you have everything stopping absolutely everywhere which defeats the purpose of an HSL.


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## NCT

Shanghai - Nanjing PDL alternative standard (peak) hour timetable:

Huning_Example_1 by Constant Invader, on Flickr

Huning_Example_2 by Constant Invader, on Flickr


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## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> Kyoto - Tokyo has 6 fast tph in the peaks, Nangang - Zuoying has 4 fast tph (2 fast at 1:45 and 2 semi-fast with 1:50). This is the extent of their fast markets - those line have the space to, and need to serve non-homonegous intermediate markets to pay for themselves. A mixed-running HSL can handle up to 12 tph.
> 
> Beijing - Shanghai is different. All the large city pairs I'm only giving 2 tph which in the long run is actually on the stingy side. These homogeneous markets leave absolutely no space for additional non-homogeneous markets (i.e. the intermediate stations). If you try inserting even one stop into any of my trains you'll see trains crashing into each other or you'll have to remove 2 trains in the process. Unless you have everything stopping absolutely everywhere which defeats the purpose of an HSL.


One double track line is completely inadequate for your goal of "2+ tph for every large city pair".
My suggested approach:
Note the example of, say, THSR. Departing from Nangang, 
809 departs Nangang 8:00, Taichung 9:17, arrives Zuoying 10:25
613 departs Nangang 8:10, Taichung 9:25, arrives Zuoying 10:20
113 departs Nangang 8:20, Taichung 9:20, arrives Zuoying 10:05
Obviously the trains get past each other. Tokaido Shinkansen has mixed traffic too, and gets 6 Nozomi trains hourly past the 2 hourly Kodamas.

The Japanese acknowledge that the real answer to Tokaido Shinkansen capacity problem is building a full parallel line. Chuo Shinkansen. On a shorter route, and designed from start for even higher speed.

As for the first two tracks: look at the capacity, at say 6 express trains per hour. And then allocate it to different routes. E. g. if the departures of express trains from Beijing towards Nanjing are scheduled to be at 8:00, 8:10 etc. because they have to pass local trains at Chuzhou Station, then not all 6 have to actually go to Shanghai. You could have Beijing-Hangzhou train on same schedule. Etc.


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## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> One double track line is completely inadequate for your goal of "2+ tph for every large city pair".
> My suggested approach:
> Note the example of, say, THSR. Departing from Nangang,
> 809 departs Nangang 8:00, Taichung 9:17, arrives Zuoying 10:25
> 613 departs Nangang 8:10, Taichung 9:25, arrives Zuoying 10:20
> 113 departs Nangang 8:20, Taichung 9:20, arrives Zuoying 10:05
> Obviously the trains get past each other. Tokaido Shinkansen has mixed traffic too, and gets 6 Nozomi trains hourly past the 2 hourly Kodamas.
> 
> The Japanese acknowledge that the real answer to Tokaido Shinkansen capacity problem is building a full parallel line. Chuo Shinkansen. On a shorter route, and designed from start for even higher speed.
> 
> As for the first two tracks: look at the capacity, at say 6 express trains per hour. And then allocate it to different routes. E. g. if the departures of express trains from Beijing towards Nanjing are scheduled to be at 8:00, 8:10 etc. because they have to pass local trains at Chuzhou Station, then not all 6 have to actually go to Shanghai. You could have Beijing-Hangzhou train on same schedule. Etc.


Your model only gives me 12 tph absolutely maximum, whereas mine gives 18.

When capacity is at a premium you organise your network to maximise the number of seats that can be carried every hour, not minimise it.

A high intensity high-speed line has to be organised differently. When on the trunk route you can only be express, then you go off the trunk route to become a collector to mop up passengers from a string of intermediate stations _off the trunk route_.

In my example above there is a train from Bengbu South mopping up passengers from Bengbu, Guzhen, Suzhou, Xuzhou before joining the main line at Xuzhou East.

Then there's the Xuzhou East starter that calls at Xuzhou, Zaozhuang West, Tengzhou, Yanzhou and Taishan before joining the main line to Beijing

Similarly my Jinan starter that mops up passengers at Dezhou and Cangzhou before going to Beijing.

You'll also notice that these services all start from HSR nodes where there's opportunity to interchange to/from a wide range of locations.

This is a much more capacity-efficient way of serving both main and intermediate markets, than trying to serve everyone through an intermediate station on the trunk route.

What is more, those intermediate stations are sited in awkward locations with no mass transit. Buses are patchy, taxis clog up the roads and unlicenced vehicles are everywhere.


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## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> Your model only gives me 12 tph absolutely maximum, whereas mine gives 18.


Still just 18. Which is still not enough. You still need to build more parallel high-speed lines.


NCT said:


> When capacity is at a premium you organise your network to maximise the number of seats that can be carried every hour, not minimise it.


You need to allocate the capacity to needs. Which include service to intermediate stations.


NCT said:


> A high intensity high-speed line has to be organised differently. When on the trunk route you can only be express, then you go off the trunk route to become a collector to mop up passengers from a string of intermediate stations _off the trunk route_.
> 
> You'll also notice that these services all start from HSR nodes where there's opportunity to interchange to/from a wide range of locations.
> 
> This is a much more capacity-efficient way of serving both main and intermediate markets, than trying to serve everyone through an intermediate station on the trunk route.
> 
> What is more, those intermediate stations are sited in awkward locations with no mass transit. Buses are patchy, taxis clog up the roads and unlicenced vehicles are everywhere.


Yes, an obvious problem
Compare with Tokaido Shinkansen

Tokyo - 0 - *Tokaido Line*
Shinagawa - 7 - *Tokaido Line*
Shin-Yokohama - 26 - Yokohama Line
Odawara - 77 - *Tokaido Line*
Atami - 95 - *Tokaido Line*
Mishima - 111 - *Tokaido Line*
Shin-Fuji - 135 - _no service_
Shizuoka - 167 - *Tokaido Line*
Kakegawa - 211 - *Tokaido Line*
Hamamatsu - 239 - *Tokaido Line*
Toyohashi - 274 - *Tokaido Line*
Mikawa-Anjo - 313 - *Tokaido Line*
Nagoya - 342 - *Tokaido Line*
Gifu-Hashima - 367 - Meitetsu-Hashima Line
Maibara - 408 - *Tokaido Line*
Kyoto - 476 - *Tokaido Line*
Shin-Osaka - 515 - *Tokaido Line*
Of the 17 stations in 515 km, only 3 are not shared with Tokaido line. These are actual shared stations, walk across platform to the collector line. Longest sections without stations of both are Shinagawa-Odawara 70 km, Mishima-Shizuoka 56 km, Nagoya-Maibara 66 km, Maibara-Kyoto 68 km.


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## krisu99

Hi,
I am planning in the first phases of planning my trip through Chinas HSR networtk Since I know more or less nothing about the "train culture", I do have a question for those who are used to travel onboard of Chinese HSR trains, and I'd be glad to learn the "basics" for better planning:

I.) How many minutes is it "good advice" to arrive at the train station prior to departure, (already owning the ticket)?
a.) in a large city during peak traffic?
b.) in a smaller city off-peak?

II.) How much additional time would I need if I would have to buy the ticket at the station?
a.) in a large city during peak traffic?
b.) in a smaller city off-peak?


III.) For my further curiosity: Is access to the platform closed prior to train departure, or can I "run" to catch the right before doors close?

IV.) Are security checks compulsory on all stations, or only on some? How much time do I need to calculate...
a.) ... in a large city during peak traffic?
b.) ... in a smaller city off-peak?


V.) Also, what is the best "strategy" to buy tickets online cost-wise? Do prices change depending on when the (same) ticket is being bought? If yes, roughly, how significant is it? 



VI.) Lets say I'd like to buy tickets "last minute" in order to be flexible: Is there a significant price penalty when buying right before departure at the station?


VII.) Which are the best online sites to buy train tickets? If I am not wrong the official site is https://www.12306.cn , but it is only(!?) in Chinese and requires a Chinese bank-issued card to pay, so no way for me (Otherwise I would have tried google translate...).
I need to pay with Mastercard, and it would be nice not having to pay foreigner's premium (agent) fees, but instead being able to get the normal Chinese prices plus maybe a little(!) surcharge. 
Which are valid sites that provide all the informations necessary? (timetables, booking with credit cards, no scam). As far as I have seen so far, this seems to be really difficult...

VIII.) Last but not least: Are trains sold out frequently for longer periods (let say more trains available for entire days?). I imagine that on special holidays this may happen, but does it happen also off-season?

Thanks in advance to the experts


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## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> Still just 18. Which is still not enough. You still need to build more parallel high-speed lines.
> 
> You need to allocate the capacity to needs. Which include service to intermediate stations.


A 50% uplift in capacity is not to be sniffed at. Plus I'm giving every major group of intermediate stations their dedicated capacity in at least one direction (the dominant direction). For the major city pairs 2 tph just about matches the current unconstrained demand - the further distances and lower trip rates mean 2 tph for Shanghai - Beijing is comparable to the 6 tph between Tokyo and Kyoto. The Beijing Shanghai line needs separate trains for separate markets because the stations on the main line are far away from population centres with inadequate onward connection links. To serve Jinan you have to get off the main line into the central Station, so Jinan trains have to be separate from Beijing trains. We are talking here about a scenario where capacity no longer has to be rationed *for everybody*.

Compare that with the current situation or your max 12 tph world where
- passengers from intermediate stations have to fight for the same and lower capacity on the through trains;
- tickets to/from intermediate stations are severely restricted despite a seemingly generous number of calls - Shanghai - Zaozhuang is sold out well in advance because the operator knows it can get more money by allocating this seats to the higher yielding Shanghai - Beijing passengers;
- a train carrying 1000 people loses 7 minutes at Zaozhuang just for about at best 50 people alighting and joining - this is grossly unfair.

A max 12tph model is worse for passengers, worse for railway finances, and worse for the economy.

Yes, more lines will need to be constructed. Once the second Beijing Shanghai line is constructed, Jinan and Qingdao can probably move over to that line, then both lines can probably operate on a 20-minute cycle with 3-tph between major city pairs.

Along the current Beijing - Shanghai HSL there will need to be either improvements to the existing line or a new passenger line connecting the centres of settlements, especially between Jinan and Xuzhou through Qufu. Essentially more corridors need to emulate the Shanghai - Nanjing and the Jinan - Qingdao model where you have one express line connecting the extremities and another (slightly slower) one through the centres of intermediate stations. What's important however is that one should add as a feeder for the other, rather than both lines trying to be all things and everything at the same time (which the Shanghai - Nanjing corridor is suffering from at the moment).


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## NCT

krisu99 said:


> Hi,
> I am planning in the first phases of planning my trip through Chinas HSR networtk Since I know more or less nothing about the "train culture", I do have a question for those who are used to travel onboard of Chinese HSR trains, and I'd be glad to learn the "basics" for better planning:


I. 30 minutes regardless - I had done it in 15-20, it was fine but felt a bit like a mini-mathathon - these days you don't really get 'stuck' in a queue but there are a lot of queues to get through and you are sent via roundabout routes - off the metro to the outside the station - station entry ID check - luggage security check - walk across the station concourse to your platform (this bit can actually feel quite long at your 24-platform stations)

II. Another 30 minutes - ticket offices are not always in the same building / through the same entrance as the station itself - queues are not usually too bad - but be sure you are on those ultra-frequent routes (e.g. along the Shanghai - Nanjing line) where ticket on departure tends to be available

III. At larger stations boarding closes 5 minutes before departure. At smaller ones I have witness people being sold a ticket for departure in 3 minutes and the passenger was advised to 'just run for it' - I wouldn't recommend it personally.

IV. Yes - at normal times that 30 minute window should be sufficient to cover this

V. In most cases prices do not vary according to how far in advance you purchase (on some lines they have started trialling discounted advance purchase I think but the difference tends to be slight)

VI. There is little to no price penalty. The only risk is availability. I left my Emei - Chengdu ticket purchase to last minute (couldn't estimate when I'd make it off the mountain) and all the trains for that day were sold out!!

VII. Forget 12306 - it's the crappest site on earth. Trip.com (the English site of Ctrip) is pretty good and you can use most international cards. Make sure you enter your passport details accurately as you will need to present your passport at a staffed ticket window to collect your booked tickets.

VIII. Yes. Tickets are released in tranches 30 days before departure (sometimes releases are suspended for timetable changes). The direct long distance trains (the fastest trains that make few to no stops but only run 3-5 times a day but are no more expensive than the rest) are always sold out. For these trains I'd recommend paying ￥20 on Trip to pre-order before the 30-day window and their algorithms and superfast broadband try to get you to the front of the queue - full refund if not successful. 

The above applies to normal seasons only. During Chinese New Year or other long holidays (Labour Day season in May and National Day season in October) things will become slightly hopeless (and add extra padding in whatever way you can - you will have to resort to coaches or flying in some instances).

Final note: You MUST collect your tickets from a staffed ticket window. If you have a relatively fixed schedule I suggest you book all tickets in advance and collect them in one go. Therefore for your first train journey get to the station at least an hour before, or collect your tickets on a previous day for insurance. It must be from a station ticket office not those other retail offices on the streets as those will not be able to process your passport. You might be charged ￥5 for each ticket for travel not from the station of collection.


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## cheehg

krisu99 said:


> Hi,
> I am planning in the first phases of planning my trip through Chinas HSR networtk Since I know more or less nothing about the "train culture", I do have a question for those who are used to travel onboard of Chinese HSR trains, and I'd be glad to learn the "basics" for better planning:
> 
> I.) How many minutes is it "good advice" to arrive at the train station prior to departure, (already owning the ticket)?
> a.) in a large city during peak traffic? 30mins
> b.) in a smaller city off-peak? 15 mins
> 
> II.) How much additional time would I need if I would have to buy the ticket at the station?
> a.) in a large city during peak traffic? 45-60 mins
> b.) in a smaller city off-peak? 30 mins
> 
> 
> III.) For my further curiosity: Is access to the platform closed prior to train departure, or can I "run" to catch the right before doors close? Most station close the boarding gate 3-5 mins before departure time.
> 
> IV.) Are security checks compulsory on all stations, or only on some? How much time do I need to calculate... YES. The time could be very short.
> a.) ... in a large city during peak traffic? 10-15 mins
> b.) ... in a smaller city off-peak? 5 mins
> 
> 
> V.) Also, what is the best "strategy" to buy tickets online cost-wise? Do prices change depending on when the (same) ticket is being bought? If yes, roughly, how significant is it?
> 
> Better to buy online to make sure you have the seat/ticket. Chinese HSR could be filled very fast. You can change the ticket online before print the ticket in station. Otherwise you can change it in station.
> No advantage in price if you buy online or on the spot. There are some off time trains with some kind of discount but it has nothing to do if you buy in advance or on spot.
> 
> VI.) Lets say I'd like to buy tickets "last minute" in order to be flexible: Is there a significant price penalty when buying right before departure at the station?
> NO. The price is fixed. For foreigners, most of us buy from travel agent(C-trip and other), so there is a fee from the agent. Check online to make sure the tickets are available.
> 
> VII.) Which are the best online sites to buy train tickets? If I am not wrong the official site is https://www.12306.cn , but it is only(!?) in Chinese and requires a Chinese bank-issued card to pay, so no way for me (Otherwise I would have tried google translate...).
> I need to pay with Mastercard, and it would be nice not having to pay foreigner's premium (agent) fees, but instead being able to get the normal Chinese prices plus maybe a little(!) surcharge.
> Which are valid sites that provide all the informations necessary? (timetables, booking with credit cards, no scam). As far as I have seen so far, this seems to be really difficult...
> 
> I used Ctrip. I booked the hotel and transportation through them. They have CSRs speaking English. They can deliver the ticket to your hotel or you can go to any railway station to print the ticket. There maybe some changes in 2019 to eliminate printing tickets. Say, you can use the e-ticket to process the boarding.
> 
> VIII.) Last but not least: Are trains sold out frequently for longer periods (let say more trains available for entire days?). I imagine that on special holidays this may happen, but does it happen also off-season?
> Off-season normally is ok to buy the ticket one day in advance. But weekends and some fast trains can be sold out very quickly. And sometimes the small stations have less tickets available for long distance trains (they have kind of quota). Also you can use the waiting list if you really want to take a specific train. Or you can try to break the trips to use connections.
> 
> Thanks in advance to the experts


here you go. 
try to answer your questions.


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## cheehg

NCT said:


> Service pattern is as follows:
> 
> Departing Nanjing South (using Nanjing South as Shanghai has different departure points. All call at Xuzhou East so not listed below):
> 
> xx09/39 Beijing South
> xx12/42 Tianjin, calling at Tianjin South, Tianjin West. Extended to northeastern China as appropriate
> xx15/45 Shijiazhuang or Qingdao, calling at Tianjin West where the service leaves the main line, onto Shiji or Jiqing lines
> xx19/49 Jinan, may be extended to Qingdao via Jiaoji line
> xx22 Zhengzhou, calling at Zhengzhou East
> xx25 Xuzhou East via Bengbu South (diverging from main line), Bengbu, Guzhen, Su(4)zhou and Xuzhou (reversal before continuing to Xuzhou East)
> xx52 Xi'an, calling at Zhengzhou East
> xx55 Lanzhou, calling at Zhengzhou East and Xi'an North. Precise pattern west of Xi'an north may vary by hour for such a long-distance service
> xx29/32/35 paths and those in the opposite half hour go off at Nanjing in the Hefei/Wuhan direction.
> 
> Arriving into Beijing South:
> xx03/33 from Shanghai
> 00/30 from Hangzhou East (back extended from Ningbo or Wenzhou)
> xx57 from Hefei (central) calling at Bengbu South
> xx27 from Fuzhou (back extended from Xiamen etc), calling pattern not yet determined, but principal stations only (but could be one hour fast, one hour semi-fast)
> xx53 from Bengbu South, calling at Bengbu, Guzhen, Suzhou, Xuzhou and Xuzhou East
> xx50/20 from Xuzhou East, calling at Xuzhou, Zaozhuang West, Tengzhou, Yanzhou, Taishan (needs a connecting spur)
> xx47/17 from Jinan (may be backextended from Qingdao via Jiaoji), calling at Jinan West before joining the main line
> xx43/13 from Qingdao via Jiqing, calling at Jinan East
> xx40/10 from Jinan, via the classic route, calling at Dezhou and Cangzhou (needs new spur)
> 
> The path that would get into Beijing South at xx23 is used for Zhengzhou - Jinan movements which are fairly popular at the moment. Same path may also be used for Jinan - Tianjin movements.
> 
> Journey times wise, Shanghai - Beijing is 4h33, Tianjin is similar, Jinan West is just over 3 so Qingdao should be just under 5. Xi'an is just shy of 6, Lanzhou about 8.
> 
> I've recently learnt that 3-minute headways are not a given on the Shanghai - Beijing line (currently observed minimum planning headway is 4 minutes). Also the points are only capable of 160km/h meaning diverging and converging train paths have to decelerate/accelerate for a significant distance on the main line, so they cannot be pathed just minimum headway away from neighbouring through paths. My timetable may have to be pared down to just 1 tph for some of the destination pairs ...


Actually it doesn't have to use the old line. If the whole net has more clear types of the trains, there are still capacity. All the lines should classify the stations into 3 classes. 

Express: natioanl net. Beijing to shanghai, shanghai to xi'an etc. only stop on biggest cities and key junctions. Bj-jn-xz-nj-sh. 8tph
Fast: stop few more important cities. Add tianjin dezhou, qufu, bengbu, changzhou, wuxi, suzhou, kunshan. 8tph. 
Regional: inside railway zone. Stop at all stations. 2tph. 

All the long distance should be express.


----------



## NCT

The split of responsibility between BJ/SH and SH/NJ lines should be the type of traffic (express vs regional) and not from which compass direction the services are from. The infrastructure allows things to be organised according to the former.

Well, one day something will have to give. We can either continue with this highly unscientific one-station-per-county blanket approach and wasting ￥billions of resources in the process, or politicians can start making more enlightened decisions. 

Things have already started to give anyway. As exemplified by Shanghai - Nanjing HSR, every time the timetable is rejigged (read. intensified) the smaller stations get squeezed more and more and become all but ghost stations. Zijinshan has never been opened. It's only a matter of time before they turn around and accept the inevitable ...


----------



## cheehg

Sadly even the new fuzhou to xiamen 350 line will stay have smaller stations instead of just putian and quanzhou.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Germany has a lot of experience running multicentric, nonlinear network.


----------



## Negjana

What actually is the maximum speed on the Nanjing-Shanghai Intercity line?


Some sources quote 350 km/h, although there are tight curves in Zhenjiang, Danyang, Changzhou, Wuxi, and Suzhou. What is the max speed in between these restricted curves?


----------



## cheehg

Negjana said:


> What actually is the maximum speed on the Nanjing-Shanghai Intercity line?
> 
> 
> Some sources quote 350 km/h, although there are tight curves in Zhenjiang, Danyang, Changzhou, Wuxi, and Suzhou. What is the max speed in between these restricted curves?


Originally it was designed for 200-250 km/h. On the straight section it should be 300 and a few kms of 350 km/h.


----------



## General Huo




----------



## cheehg

NCT said:


> The split of responsibility between BJ/SH and SH/NJ lines should be the type of traffic (express vs regional) and not from which compass direction the services are from. The infrastructure allows things to be organised according to the former.
> 
> Well, one day something will have to give. We can either continue with this highly unscientific one-station-per-county blanket approach and wasting ￥billions of resources in the process, or politicians can start making more enlightened decisions.
> 
> Things have already started to give anyway. As exemplified by Shanghai - Nanjing HSR, every time the timetable is rejigged (read. intensified) the smaller stations get squeezed more and more and become all but ghost stations. Zijinshan has never been opened. It's only a matter of time before they turn around and accept the inevitable ...


according to jiangsu 2019-2025 railway plan, there is a line from changzhou to shanghai. This one will be between jinghu legacy line and sh-nj hsr line. Not sure the line specific. It will be great if the new will be big stations only and replace the huning hsr. So give back huning as original planned regional line because they can use the existing small stations.


----------



## Gusiluz

chornedsnorkack said:


> Are the existing 17 cars one deck or two?


Only one, because they have capacity for 1,283 passengers and the equivalents of 16 cars have 1,193.

The CR400BF-E of 16 cars with bunk beds does have two levels.


----------



## cheehg

Bi-level trains will have problem in China because all the platforms are 1.2 meter high. Passengers have to go down stairs first. CRRC Zhuzhou made one but CRC won't give Zhuzhou the license to run on it track.


----------



## NCT

The vestibule ends can still be of the single deck design - with staircases going up and down to upper and lower saloons. Your restaurant car can remain single deck and include wheelchair accommodation.

This kind of design will obviously result in a lower capacity than the continuous double deck design that's common in places like Switzerland.


----------



## cheehg

NCT said:


> If you have to slow down on the main line then the passing train behind you needs to be spaced a further distance back, so that it doesn't go into the back of you running full pelt as you slow. If you have 230km/h turnouts and ~2km platform loops, then by the time you leave the main line at 230km/h the train behind you running at 350 km/h can still be pathed 3 minutes behind, as you slow down further you are on the loop and don't have to worry about the train behind crashing into you.
> 
> HS2 in the UK is designed with 230km/h turnouts and 2km platform loops (either side).


I try to get info on HS2 design but came cross this research. 18tph is not likely to achieve and if you have 230km/h turn out, the loop line needs to be 11km. This is way too long. Average distance of two stations in Chinese HSR is less than 35km. Even just a few key stations have 230km/h turnout, it is still too expensive. 

http://www.railway-technical.com/books-papers--articles/high-speed-railway-capacity.pdf


----------



## xinxingren

General Huo said:


>


Hmm, back to the classic green & yellow for the Mengzi line? Or is this some requirement for a future extension to Hanoi?


----------



## cheehg

xinxingren said:


> Hmm, back to the classic green & yellow for the Mengzi line? Or is this some requirement for a future extension to Hanoi?


This is nothing to do with V.N. All CR200J train sets are in green now.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

cheehg said:


> I try to get info on HS2 design but came cross this research. 18tph is not likely to achieve and if you have 230km/h turn out, the loop line needs to be 11km. This is way too long. Average distance of two stations in Chinese HSR is less than 35km. Even just a few key stations have 230km/h turnout, it is still too expensive.
> 
> http://www.railway-technical.com/books-papers--articles/high-speed-railway-capacity.pdf


Shanghai-Beijing and Shanghai-Nanjing high speed railways are true 4 track line for about 50 km, Shanghai to Kunshan South. After that, the remaining 250 km to Nanjing, there are 4 tracks, but they are a few km apart. Meaning that trains cannot cross where needed.

Are there any other sections of Chinese HSR lines that should be made true 4 track or more lines for 20 or more km? Like Beijing-Tianjin, Guangzhou-Shenzhen, onwards Kunshan towards Suzhou...?


----------



## NCT

cheehg said:


> I try to get info on HS2 design but came cross this research. 18tph is not likely to achieve and if you have 230km/h turn out, the loop line needs to be 11km. This is way too long. Average distance of two stations in Chinese HSR is less than 35km. Even just a few key stations have 230km/h turnout, it is still too expensive.
> 
> http://www.railway-technical.com/books-papers--articles/high-speed-railway-capacity.pdf


All the points are answered in this paper from Bombardier:

https://webarchive.nationalarchives...ombardier transportation hs2 final_121011.pdf

HS2's timetabling approach and design standards take into account all these considerations so it will have the 18-tph capability.

The question is therefore to what extent does the Beijing - Shanghai line meet the HS2 characteristics to enable 18tph operation.

In terms of the small stations - they were doomed to fail from the start so the only answer is to close them.

You don't need to modify Nanjing South or Xuzhou South as all trains stop, so they only need to be configured like Old Oak Common (no need for 230km/h turn-outs)

At most other main stations and turn-offs (Bengbu South, Jinan West) etc, I've ordered the trains such as when a train turns off the main line, the path behind it is empty (because it turns off at an earlier junction).

The only things needed to run my timetable are:
- New connector lines to Taishan
- New connector lines to Cangzhou
- Modifications in the Tianjin South area
Only three pieces of work all in rural areas.

It won't be completely disruption free, but it's much less disruptive than any alternative.


----------



## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> Shanghai-Beijing and Shanghai-Nanjing high speed railways are true 4 track line for about 50 km, Shanghai to Kunshan South. After that, the remaining 250 km to Nanjing, there are 4 tracks, but they are a few km apart. Meaning that trains cannot cross where needed.
> 
> Are there any other sections of Chinese HSR lines that should be made true 4 track or more lines for 20 or more km? Like Beijing-Tianjin, Guangzhou-Shenzhen, onwards Kunshan towards Suzhou...?


You don't seem to understand what a 4-track railway actually means.

Thinking within the realm of a 4-track railway with all 4 tracks next to each other. There are two common configurations: pair by use and pair by direction.

Pair by use: up slow / down slow / up fast / down fast. This is the Japanese approach - the slow and fast lines are completely operationally independent - trains do not cross between the two, only passengers do.

Pair by direction: up slow / up fast / down fast / down slow. This is common in many other parts of the world. There are two common ways of organising services:
1) operationally independent services on fast and slow lines, with island platforms at key stations where passengers can interchange between the two
2) each train stops at about 5-10 stations to 'hoover up' passengers on the slow line, before crossing onto the fast line. Note there are strict touch points where trains are allowed to cross.

A 4-track railway does NOT mean trains darting across the two lines willy nilly. This is how you should NEVER run a railway.


----------



## cheehg

NCT said:


> All the points are answered in this paper from Bombardier:
> 
> https://webarchive.nationalarchives...ombardier transportation hs2 final_121011.pdf
> 
> HS2's timetabling approach and design standards take into account all these considerations so it will have the 18-tph capability.
> 
> The question is therefore to what extent does the Beijing - Shanghai line meet the HS2 characteristics to enable 18tph operation.
> 
> In terms of the small stations - they were doomed to fail from the start so the only answer is to close them.
> 
> You don't need to modify Nanjing South or Xuzhou South as all trains stop, so they only need to be configured like Old Oak Common (no need for 230km/h turn-outs)
> 
> At most other main stations and turn-offs (Bengbu South, Jinan West) etc, I've ordered the trains such as when a train turns off the main line, the path behind it is empty (because it turns off at an earlier junction).
> 
> The only things needed to run my timetable are:
> - New connector lines to Taishan
> - New connector lines to Cangzhou
> - Modifications in the Tianjin South area
> Only three pieces of work all in rural areas.
> 
> It won't be completely disruption free, but it's much less disruptive than any alternative.


This 230km/h turnout is only for barmingham junction. After branched out the train continue the journey. I cannot find the same layout in Chinese HSR. The chinese HSR normally branch out from the stations. 
Also the 18tph is the maximum designed with automatic driving trains. So it is for future. 

Uk is always trying to save money on those things. Their loading gauge on legacy line is smaller and platforms are shorter. HS2 will be same as Europe standard but the branchs will be in classic lines so they need smaller trains. 18tph will open to chaos. It will be much safer and in the end saving money to build a new line for middle of England.


----------



## NCT

cheehg said:


> This 230km/h turnout is only for barmingham junction. After branched out the train continue the journey. I cannot find the same layout in Chinese HSR. The chinese HSR normally branch out from the stations.
> Also the 18tph is the maximum designed with automatic driving trains. So it is for future.


The spurs to Jinan and to Tianjin West coming from the South.



> Uk is always trying to save money on those things. Their loading gauge on legacy line is smaller and platforms are shorter. HS2 will be same as Europe standard but the branchs will be in classic lines so they need smaller trains. 18tph will open to chaos. It will be much safer and in the end saving money to build a new line for middle of England.


Nah, you are mistaking being precise for being stingy. There's sometimes a subtle but always an important difference.

18tph does not rely on ATO, but ATO will help with reliability (larger margin for recovering from delays, as ATO can enable operation closer to technical headway which is shorter than planning headway). China has already unveiled its ATO Fuxing Class so by the time HS2's second phase opens ATO will most certainly be a mature technology.

18tph capability has been confirmed by many industry partners not least Bombardier who has extensive rolling stock and infrastructure experience. They even cite Beijing - Shanghai as an example!

Anyway, we are diverting from the main point. Whether the precise number is 18 tph or something else, once you have your planning headway defined, you should timetable in such a way that deviation from this headway is kept to a minimum.


----------



## General Huo




----------



## saiho

Chinese HSR network as of Jan 5, 2019 (click image for larger image)

Posted by chensiqiongjz of Ditiezu


----------



## Gusiluz

Make_TT said:


> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China
> 
> In the China HSR Map on Wikipedia on I don't see these Lines, yet:
> 
> - Harbin-Jamusi HSR line,
> - Harbin-Mudanjiang HSR line,
> - Shenyang-Chengde HSR line,
> - Jinan-Qingdao HSR line (350 km/h),
> - Chongqing-Wanzhou HSR line,
> - Chongqing-Guiyang HSR line,
> - Shenzhen-Zhanjiang HSR line.
> 
> Are these Lines already open?


According to my own list of lines opened in 2018:


There are all by which questions, except Shenzhen-Zhanjiang that I don't have pointed as inaugurable currently. I have pointed Shenzhen-Jiangmen for 2023. There to Maoming is 200 since 2018 and up Zhanjiang also 200 mixed since 2013. May have service with CRH trains.


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



You can appreciate the policy change price and speeds April 2011 affecting lines opened since 2017.


----------



## General Huo




----------



## Gusiluz

*Maps updated to January 5*

Here is the updated map of Chinese AV lines.
This is how it looks in small:


These colors are from another map that is in Chinese, but I think they are useful for this one:


----------



## cheehg

Sunfuns said:


> That's an impressive map, but is there also one which clearly differentiates between lines in service, lines under constructions and lines in planning?


here is a link. there is a post with a map. the map shows the planed and UC as well as opened but there is no clear indicating for UC and Planing. 

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/china-hsr-news-and-information-original-translation.363685/page-226


----------



## xinxingren

To celebrate 40 years since Deng Xiaoping's economic reforms CCTV have broadcast a series of short programs "Forty Years, Forty Firsts". Episode 27 deals with the history of Chinese HSR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GuGMtPLTCQ


----------



## Zaz965

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=590458&page=292
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuxing_(train)


----------



## Тень_леса

Отсюда


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Thanks!
In green how it was at the end of 2017 and in blue color the new 2018 lines.

Adding something else.

A map with the PDL planned for 2020:


Another updated, but underground type, already taught in this Thread (Thanks: *saiho*):




Here is in size 5 megabytes.

And here is the page with all the updated maps, including conventional rail.


----------



## jonathanNCJ

Wuxi East by Mickoo737, on *Flickr*


----------



## gao7

*High speed trains maintained for 2019 Spring Festival travel rush*



















> Aerial photo taken on Jan. 20, 2019 shows high speed trains after maintaining in Nanjing, capital of east China's Jiangsu Province. The 2019 Spring Festival travel rush, known as Chunyun, will start on Jan. 21. The Spring Festival, or Chinese Lunar New Year, falls on Feb. 5 this year.


http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-01/20/c_137759595.htm


----------



## foxmulder

gao7 said:


> *High speed trains maintained for 2019 Spring Festival travel rush*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-01/20/c_137759595.htm




Love this maintenance center:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2sEVs8Ttqc


----------



## lawdefender

https://news.mydrivers.com/1/582/582184.htm


By 2020, China's high-speed railways will reach 30,000 kilometers, covering more than 80% of cities with population of more than 1 million. The total length of expressways will reach 150,000 kilometers, covering most of the cities with population of more than 200,000. 

According to the new Medium and Long-Term Railway Network Plan, by 2030, the scale of China's high-speed railway network will reach 45,000 kilometers, and the scale of the railway network will reach 200,000 kilometers.


----------



## cheehg

Original plan was done in 2008. It only had 8 HSR for most important corridors. The new plan changed to cover all the cities with 50000 population and more. Some east provinces will have all the cities covered.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Thanks!
> In green how it was at the end of 2017 and in blue color the new 2018 lines.
> 
> Adding something else.
> 
> A map with the PDL planned for 2020:


Is it just the lines open by start of 2020 (opening in 2019) or also the lines open by end of 2020 (opening in 2020)?


----------



## Transhumanista

Fuxing vs Hexie


----------



## cheehg

chornedsnorkack said:


> Is it just the lines open by start of 2020 (opening in 2019) or also the lines open by end of 2020 (opening in 2020)?


This is just an old planing map of 2005 version. Many things changed after. According to this map only 10k HSR network planned for 2020. Now it is 30k.


----------



## abcpdo

Transhumanista said:


> Fuxing vs Hexie




The video is entertaining but sooo misleading.


----------



## Gusiluz

*PDL under construction or planned (Update: January, 2019)*

Here is a map updated this month with the lines under construction or planned (colorless). If someone wants to ask for a certain line ...








It's too big, but it's the only way to appreciate the details.

On the other map for 2020, there was even a tunnel line to the island of Taiwan.


----------



## cheehg

Nice map although it is not very accurate in some detail and missing some lines already in construction such as shaoxin to taizhou,fuzhou to xiamen and hangzhou to wenzhou.


----------



## General Huo

Hangzhou-Huangshan HSR is one of most scenic route in China.


----------



## General Huo

2 渝湘高铁重庆至黔江
Yuxiang High-speed Railway Chongqing to Qianjiang

Full length: 500 km, 260 km for section from Chongqing to Qianjiang

Speed: 350km / h

Total investment: 53.5 billion

Starting time: end of 2018

Along the line: Chongqing - Qianjiang


----------



## General Huo

3. 沪苏湖高铁
Hu-su-hu (Shanghai-Suzhou-Huzhou) High Speed ​​Rail

Full length: 163.54 km

Speed: 350km / h

Total investment: 36.8 billion

Starting time: end of 2018

Along the line: Huzhou-Suzhou


----------



## General Huo

4. 郑济高铁山东段
Zhengji High Speed ​​Rail Shandong Section

Full length: 169.694 km

Speed: 350km / h

Total investment: 54.7 billion

Starting time: 2019

Along the line: Zhengzhou-Jinan


----------



## General Huo

5. 渝昆高铁
Chongqing-Kunming HSR

Full length: 720 kilometers

Speed: 350km / h

Total investment: 117 billion

Starting time: end of 2018

Along the line: Chongqing - Kunming


----------



## General Huo

6. 昌景黄高铁

ChangJingHuang (Nanchang-Jingdezhen-Huangshan) High Speed ​​Rail

Full length: 289.807 km

Speed: 350km / h

Total investment: 47 billion

Start-up time: early stage at the end of 2018

Along the line: Nanchang-Jingdezhen-Huangshan


----------



## General Huo

7. 宁淮城际铁路

Ninghuai Intercity Railway

Full length: 203 km

Speed: 250km/h

Total investment: 28.4 billion

Starting time: 2019

Along the line: Nanjing - Huai'an


----------



## General Huo

8. 宜张高铁

Yizhang high-speed rail

Full length: 261.35 km

Speed: 350km / h

Total investment: 27.6 billion yuan

Starting time: end of 2018

Along the line: Yichang-Zhangjiajie


----------



## General Huo

9. 长赣高铁

Changsha-Ganzhou high-speed rail

Full length: 450 km

Speed: 350km / h

Total investment: 59.5 billion yuan

Starting time: 2019

Open time: 2025

Along the line: Changsha-Ganzhou


----------



## General Huo

10. 昌九高铁

Changjiu High Speed ​​Rail

Full length: 120 km

Speed: 350km / h

Total investment: 20.9 billion yuan

Starting time: 2019

Opening time: 2021

Along the line: Nanchang-Jiujiang


----------



## General Huo

11. 襄常高铁

Xiangyang-Changde HSR

Full length: 380 km

Speed: 350km / h

Total investment: 66.2 billion yuan

Starting time: 2019

Open time: 2021

Along the line: Xiangyang-Changde


----------



## General Huo

12. 杭临绩高铁

Hangzhou - Lin'an - Jixi High Speed ​​Rail

Full length: 141 km

Speed: 350km / h

Total investment: 21.93 billion yuan

Starting time: 2019

Along the line: Hangzhou - Lin'an - Jixi


----------



## General Huo

13. 雄商高铁

Xiongshang High Speed ​​Rail

Full length: 540 km

Speed: 350km / h

Starting time: 2019

Along the line: Xiong'an-Shangqiu


----------



## General Huo

14. 合新高铁

Hexin High Speed ​​Rail

Full length: 343.5 km

Speed: 350km / h

Total investment: 31.7 billion

Starting time: 2019

Along the line: Hefei-Xinyi


----------



## General Huo

15. 杭温高铁富阳至义乌

Hangwen high-speed rail Fuyang to Yiwu

Full length: 218 km

Speed: 350km / h

Total investment: 36.17 billion yuan

Starting time: 2019

Open time: 2021

Along the line: Fuyang-Yiwu


----------



## General Huo

16. 深圳至江门

Shenzhen to Jiangmen HSR

Full length: 116 km

Speed: 250km/h

Total investment: 65.2 billion yuan

Starting time: 2019

Along the line: Shenzhen - Jiangmen


----------



## General Huo

17. 延榆高铁

Yanyu high-speed rail

Full length: 234 km

Speed: 350km / h

Total investment: 41.5 billion

Starting time: 2019

Along the line: Yan'an - Yulin


----------



## General Huo

18. 西康高铁

Xikang High Speed ​​Rail

Full length: 174 km

Speed: 350km / h

Total investment: 31.4 billion yuan

Starting time: 2019

Along the line: Xi'an - Ankang


----------



## snow is red

My god ! At this current rate, how long it will take for the whole of China to be connected by high speed rail???


----------



## General Huo

19. 广湛高铁

Guangzhan High Speed ​​Rail

Full length: 413 km

Speed: 350km / h

Total investment: 84 billion yuan

Starting time: January 2019

Opening hours: August 2022

Along the line: Guangzhou - Zhanjiang


----------



## General Huo

20. 通苏嘉甬高铁

TongSuJiaYong High Speed ​​Rail

Full length: 186.1 km

Speed: 350km / h

Total investment: over 30 billion yuan

Starting time: 2019

Along the line: Nantong-Suzhou-Jiaxing-Ningbo


----------



## General Huo




----------



## General Huo

> China's 1st cross-sea high-speed railway project reaches a milestone with the installation of a prestressed concrete box girder on a bridge


----------



## saiho

by 铁路小亨


----------



## General Huo

Shangqiu-Hefei-Hangzhou HSR laying tracks





And Beijing-Xiong'an-Shangqiu HSR will start construction 3Q 2019. Section of Beijing-Xiong'an is under-construction now. It will make a new high speed rail corridor from Beijing to Shanghai area.


----------



## Vavol123

*How to get new version of this map?*



General Huo said:


> Shangqiu-Hefei-Hangzhou HSR laying tracks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Beijing-Xiong'an-Shangqiu HSR will start construction 3Q 2019. Section of Beijing-Xiong'an is under-construction now. It will make a new high speed rail corridor from Beijing to Shanghai area.


How to get new version of this map?


----------



## General Huo

> Huanghe Railway Bridge Jinsha'an belong Datong to Xi'an high speed railway,total length 9969m,has 175 piers,most of them more than 40m high,tallest pier 50m.
> Located in
> N35.043900 E110.310942
> https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E6%99%8...
> Railway in China:
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...


----------



## General Huo

> New China TV
> Published on May 30, 2019
> 
> Smarter and 2.75 times faster! Shanghai has introduced robots to help with bullet train maintenance work to improve efficiency and safety.


----------



## gao7

*Zhangjiakou Station under construction*





































> Photo taken on May 30, 2019 shows the construction site of the Zhangjiakou Station of the Beijing-Zhangjiakou high-speed railway in Zhangjiakou. The main structure of the Zhangjiakou Station has been basically completed.


http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-05/31/c_138104109_2.htm


----------



## General Huo

> CGTN
> Published on Jun 3, 2019
> 
> Testing of a high-speed railway section connecting north China's Inner Mongolia and Hebei Province began on June 1, ahead of being put into operation in late 2019. The line will cut the travel time from Hohhot, the capital city of Inner Mongolia, to Beijing to three hours from the current 10 hours.


----------



## General Huo

Nanchang-Ganzhou HSR sets to open this year


----------



## General Huo

> New China TV
> Published on Jun 4, 2019
> 
> Track laying has been completed for a new high-speed railway in Jiangxi, China. It's part of a high-speed rail artery that will eventually link Beijing with Hong Kong.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

What is the due date to open Ganzhou-Shenzen?

What route is preferred for Nanchang-Beijing?


----------



## General Huo

chornedsnorkack said:


> What is the due date to open Ganzhou-Shenzen?


2021



chornedsnorkack said:


> What route is preferred for Nanchang-Beijing?


----------



## saiho

by 做奥迪的王太师


----------



## cheehg

Only China has such diversified landscape.


----------



## gao7

*Track-laying work for Zhengzhou-Fuyang Railway completed*




























> Workers lay the track on the Zhengzhou-Fuyang Railway in Fuyang City, east China's Anhui Province, June 11, 2019. The last pair of 500-meter-long track were laid on the Zhengzhou-Fuyang Railway on Tuesday, marking the completion of the track-laying work for the 267-kilometer Railway, which links Zhengzhou of central China's Henan and Fuyang of east China's Anhui. The railway is expected to be put into operation at the end of 2019, with a designed speed of 350 kilometers per hour.


http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-06/11/c_138134413_10.htm


----------



## General Huo

> New China TV
> Published on Jun 12, 2019
> 
> Track laying has been completed for a new high-speed railway linking Beijing with Zhangjiakou, two host cities for the 2022 Winter Olympics.


----------



## General Huo

> CGTN
> Published on Jun 12, 2019
> 
> 40-year-old Losong Tsering was born in a remote area of Chamdo city in Tibet Autonomous Region. As Tibet's first high-speed train driver, he is working for the Lanzhou-Xining section of the Lanzhou-Qinghai high-speed railway now. However twenty years ago, Losong had no idea what he wanted to do, and had never thought about becoming a train driver.


----------



## saiho

by 做奥迪的王太师


----------



## General Huo

> New China TV
> Published on Jun 17, 2019
> 
> High-speed trains undergo check-ups by robots at a major maintenance center in Chengdu. The maintenance center is the largest of its kind in SW China, which is equipped with three maintenance robots.


----------



## gao7

*1st box girder in Henan section of new Taiyuan-Jiaozuo high-speed railway installed*





































> Photo taken on June 16, 2019 shows a box girder installation site on new Taiyuan-Jiaozuo high-speed railway in Shangtun Village of Boai County in Jiaozuo, central China's Henan Province. The first box girder in the Henan section of the railway was installed here Sunday, marking an important progress in the construction of the new high-speed railway linking Taiyuan, north China's Shanxi Province, and Jiaozuo in Henan. The 362-km railway line is expected to start service in 2020 with a designed speed of 250 kilometers per hour.


http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-06/17/c_138148631_4.htm


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## General Huo

> New China TV
> Published on Jun 21, 2019
> 
> How are mega bridges built for China's high-speed railway?
> Most high-speed railway tracks in China are built on bridges.
> Experts say high-speed railway bridges make sure railway operation is safe, smooth and stable.
> Bridges have a considerable advantage in the fact that they occupy much less ground space than subgrade engineering, so they are vital in developed regions that are densely populated.


----------



## General Huo




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## A Chicagoan

I find it funny that when this thread was started, China was only planning its high-speed rail network. Now, high-speed rail in China is taken for granted.


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## saiho

Yard outside of Kunming by 昆明铁路


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## cheehg

A Chicagoan said:


> I find it funny that when this thread was started, China was only planning its high-speed rail network. Now, high-speed rail in China is taken for granted.


Yes, in matter of 14 years? It spread faster than we thought.
Many lines have no financial future. But I think Chinese mean to replace the mid-short distance domestic airlines and intercity express buses.


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## A Chicagoan

^^ The trains are certainly more comfortable than airplanes and buses. On my last trip to China, I was staggering out of the airport with several paper bags in hand, but the next day I was able to enjoy a two-hour long high speed rail trip with no difficulty. The views were nice!


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## General Huo

Affordable high speed rail is human right! :lol:


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## cheehg

A Chicagoan said:


> ^^ The trains are certainly more comfortable than airplanes and buses. On my last trip to China, I was staggering out of the airport with several paper bags in hand, but the next day I was able to enjoy a two-hour long high speed rail trip with no difficulty. The views were nice!


That's right. I always take trains if possible. Most lines the intervene is only 10-15 minutes. It becomes the preferred method of transportation in China.
This year they started e-ticket. You don't need to print the ticket on the machine or from ticket window. Next step should be no-reservation for short to mid distance trains. They need to separate the Intercity service from long distance. Hongkong is push CR to eliminate the reserved seat system for the trains from HK to Shenzhen and Guangzhou.


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## luhai

A Chicagoan said:


> I find it funny that when this thread was started, China was only planning its high-speed rail network. Now, high-speed rail in China is taken for granted.


Indeed, another day, another HSR line opens. nothing to see or get excited about, just another regular daily news. Hell, I don't even know how many lines are under construction, as none of the list are up to date, especially for 250kmh lines, which I guess isn't even counted as HSR anymore in China.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news.../view/leshan-yibin-high-speed-line-opens.html


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## gao7

^^ Leshan – Yibin high speed line opens









https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/asia/single-view/view/leshan-yibin-high-speed-line-opens.html?sword_list[]=CHINA&no_cache=1


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## :jax:

For your nostalgic needs, some quotes from page 1...



hkskyline said:


> China currently operates a short Maglev line linking Shanghai's new airport to the city.
> 
> China planned last year to invest some 130 billion yuan (16 billion dollars) to build a high speed link between Shanghai and Beijing -- a top priority project for the nation.
> 
> China has invited tenders from German, Japanese and French firms to build the 1,300-kilometer (810-mile) link.





hkskyline said:


> Shenzhen has invited tenders from Chinese and international design institutes and companies for a new train station, local media reported yesterday.
> 
> The new station, to be located in the Longhua area of Baoan district, will serve as a transport hub for the city, linking three major mainland railway lines.
> 
> The new station will serve as a point of convergence for the Beijing-Guangzhou-Shenzhen line, the Hangzhou-Fuzhou-Shenzhen line and the new Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong express line. For local traffic, it will be linked with the Shenzhen subway system.
> 
> 
> Mr Ma said the location of some stations on the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong express line is still being discussed by officials from the Ministry of Railways and Shenzhen and Hong Kong authorities.
> 
> "The ending station for the line must be set up in the Kowloon area, but how the line exactly goes has not been decided yet," he said.






RFonline said:


> The Chinese government has approved the building of 3,000 km of railways, said Chinese Vice Minister of Railways Lu Dongfu.
> 
> All the railways will transport trains that run above 200 km per hour, but the track from Wuhan to Guangzhou and Zhengzhou to Xi'an will carry trains traveling at 300 km per hour.
> 
> He Huawu, chief engineer of the ministry, noted that the designed speed of the railways is 350 km per hour and the operating speed in initial stages will be 300 km per hour and 200 km when passing flyovers.
> 
> According to the ministry's program, China will build 10,000 km of special passenger railways and 2,000 km of high speed railways at the end of 2020.





duskdawn said:


> Complete construction 5/29/2006 and will be functional in later June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Not recovered:]
> http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/4873/c7d4873a83c9a74ddae99f2e0cd063.jpg
> http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3639/4c1f80cdf6a9d9b6808e3eb18302b4.jpg
> http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/2315/dea562325d9ccf6d99566a6425663e.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3820/068e17eda2587ff0a3d88fb2ce7bfc.jpg
> http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3403/ed0212ab006d4018a92e61754f6011.jpg


(Like with all old post, the images go missing. Recovered the first from the Internet Archive. Explains the following "UFO!" comment.)


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## chornedsnorkack

cheehg said:


> That's right. I always take trains if possible. Most lines the intervene is only 10-15 minutes. It becomes the preferred method of transportation in China.
> This year they started e-ticket. You don't need to print the ticket on the machine or from ticket window. Next step should be no-reservation for short to mid distance trains. They need to separate the Intercity service from long distance.


Separate in which sense? In some sense they are now too separated...


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## mingrady

Didn't Yibin just have a major earthquake a couple weeks ago? and a dozen people died ? 



gao7 said:


> ^^ Leshan – Yibin high speed line opens
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/asia/single-view/view/leshan-yibin-high-speed-line-opens.html?sword_list[]=CHINA&no_cache=1


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## General Huo

> CGTN
> Published on Jun 30, 2019
> 
> A mega service station for high-speed trains was put into operation in Kunming City after nine months of construction. The station covers an area of 900,000 square meters, making it the largest of its kind in southwestern China, and it looks like an aircraft carrier from above.


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## Gusiluz

*China´s High Speed Rail Development*

From the very very interesting and recent World Bank study: China´s High Speed Rail Development

*Executive Summary*


> Since 2008 to 2017 China has put into operation over 25,000 kilometers (km) of dedicated high-speed railway (HSR) lines, far more than the total high-speed lines operating in the rest of the world. The World Bank has provided financing for some 2,600 km of these lines, beginning in 2006. Since then, the World Bank has evaluated and monitored seven projects, five of which are already in service. This report builds on a report prepared by China Railway Design Corporation, together with analysis and experience gained during the World Bank’s work. It summarizes China’s experience with HSR and presents key lessons for other countries that may be considering high-speed rail investments.
> China was the first country with a gross domestic product (GDP) per capita below US$7,000 to invest in developing an HSR network. China is unique in many ways, including size (9.6 million km2); long distances between North and South, and East and West; the current stage in its economic development (GDP of US$7,590 per capita in 2017); and substantial population density (141 people per km2). China has many large cities with population greater than 500,000, located at distances (between 200 and 500 km) that are well suited for HSR.
> In 2008 the first fully HSR line in China was opened, between Beijing and Tianjin, coinciding with the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games. Since then, China has opened 25,162 km of high-speed lines (as of end-2017) with design speeds ranging from 200 to 350 km per hour (kph). It is by far the largest passenger-dedicated HSR network in the world and currently operates over 2,600 pairs of China Rail Highspeed (CRH) trains each day.
> The high-speed services represent a radical change in the provision of passenger services by China Railways. Not only have travel times been markedly reduced, but capacity has also significantly expanded. For the first time, passengers on most HSR routes can now “turn up and go,” except at peak periods. Over 10 years, the CRH service has carried over 7 billion high-speed passengers, second only to the 11 billion carried by the Japanese Shinkansen over the past 50 years. CRH currently carries 56 percent of the 8.3 million passengers using the China nonurban rail network each day.
> The current level of demand, at 1.7 billion passengers per year, confirms the strong need for such service along core corridors and the willingness of many to pay substantially higher fares than charged for conventional intercity trains. The total annual volume carried is already far larger than on the French TGV services and the Japanese Shinkansen services. It will continue to grow rapidly as the many lines under construction are completed and as urban incomes and population in China continue to rise. Traffic on conventional rail services has continued to grow despite diversion to high-speed services, but at a very slow pace (0.5 percent per year). Compared with other leading countries with HSR services, China has achieved a strong start with good traffic densities at an early stage of implementation.
> A broad range of travelers of different income levels select the HSR for its short travel time, comfort, convenience, safety, and punctuality. It facilitates labor mobility, family visits, tourism, and expansion of social networks. Nearly half of the passengers travel for business purposes.
> By offering a new service quality at a very different price point, China has broadened the range of intercity options, enabling a better matching of supply and demand. This has freed up considerable capacity on conventional trains, on which tickets were formerly very difficult to secure, for lower-income groups who are more price sensitive.
> During the past decade, China has accumulated considerable experience in planning, constructing, and operating high-speed lines. This report summarizes key lessons from this experience that may be applicable in other countries.


Growth of High-Speed Rail in China


> The first chapter outlines the background to the development of HSR in China and the key role played by the Medium- and Long-Term Railway Plan (MLTRP). This plan, first approved in 2004 with revisions in 2008 and 2016, looks up to 15 years ahead and is complemented by a series of Five-Year Plans, prepared as part of the general planning cycle. These plans are rarely changed once approved. The initial Medium and Long Term Development Plan planned for an HSR network of 12,000 km by 2020. The 2016 revision is now aiming for a network of 30,000 km by 2020, 38,000 km by 2025, and 45,000 km by 2030 (NDRC 2016). The development of a well-analyzed long-term plan, strongly supported by government, provides a clear framework for development of the system.
> The lines have been constructed from the start through special-purpose asset construction and management companies. These companies are normally joint ventures between the central and provincial governments. This structure secures the active participation of local government in planning and financing the projects. Cooperation among rail manufacturers, universities, research institutions, laboratories, and engineering centers enables capacity development, rapid technological advancement, and localization of technology.






On page 11 is the map with the future network according to NDRC 2016 and on page 13 there are maps of the annual advance of the HSR.

Service Design


> The second chapter discusses the key choices in service design. Service frequency must balance operating cost and use of line capacity with attractiveness to potential passengers. Most HSR lines have at least an hourly service between 7:00 a.m. and midnight, and more than 70 train pairs are operated on busy routes. This level of service requires an average load of 4 million to 6 million passengers per year throughout its route to be operated efficiently. On most lines, the China Railway Corporation (CRC) operates a mixture of express and stopping services. Few services stop at all intermediate stations. The choice of service frequency is matched to the volume of passengers using the station. Line speed is determined by balancing the line’s role in the network, market demand, and engineering conditions with investment cost. Inter-running of conventional services on HSR lines and vice versa occurs but is not widespread.
> To be competitive, HSR service must operate with high punctuality, frequency, and speed. In China the HSR service has a punctuality rate of over 98 percent for departures and 95 percent for arrivals, with Fuxing trains having even better punctuality. Fares are competitive with bus and airfares. Chinese HSR fares are low compared to other countries, which enables HSR to attract passengers from all income groups.






Markets


> The third chapter analyzes the market for HSR. It gives examples of HSR’s ability to attract passengers from other modes (including conventional rail). In corridors in China, HSR typically captures up to half of the conventional rail traffic, most of the intercity bus traffic (except for short distances), and a large share of air traffic up to 800 km. Because of its high speed and service frequency the 350 kph service is
> competitive up to 1,200 km. In China, HSR also generates 10–20 percent new trips that were not previously made by any mode. Although half of the trips are made for business purposes, the low fares enable HSR to attract passengers for all trip purposes and from all income groups. Conventional services are still heavily used— they are much cheaper than HSR (by 3:1 or 4:1) and provide services to stations not served by HSR. Shifting passengers has freed capacity on conventional services, which can now serve pent-up demand.


On page 29 there are tables with the evolution of passenger transport, both conventional and HSR, as well as traffic density.













Construction


> The fourth chapter describes the procedures China has adopted when constructing new lines. One of the most striking lessons for other countries is the speed with which public sector organizations can build high-quality infrastructure when given clear guidance and responsibilities. The Chinese HSR network has been built at an average cost (including signaling, electrification, and facilities) of Y 139 million/km (US$20.6 million/ km) for 350 kph lines, about Y 114 million/km (US$16.9 million/km) for 250 kph lines, and about Y 104 million/km (US$15.4 million/km) for a 200 kph HSR line—about twothirds of the cost in other countries—even though many Chinese lines have a high proportion of their route on viaducts or in tunnels.
> Although labor costs are lower in China, a key factor in the lower cost and rapid and efficient HSR construction has been the standardization of designs and procedures. The steady stream of projects has also encouraged the creation of a capable, competitive supply industry. The large HSR investment program, which does not change once approved, has also encouraged the development of innovative and competitive capacity for equipment manufacture and construction and the ability to amortize the capital cost of construction equipment over multiple projects.
> HSR project managers have clear responsibilities and delegated authority to carry them out. They typically stay for the full duration of the project, ensuring a clear chain of responsibility for the implementation of the project. Their compensation includes a significant component of incentive compensation related to performance.


Page 40 TABLE 4.1 HSR technical standards by maximum speed.



Testing, commissioning, and safety


> The fifth chapter discusses the procedures China has adopted when commissioning new lines and its approach to ensuring operational safety. China manages safety risks throughout the project life cycle by assuring appropriate technology in the design phase, quality construction in the building phase, and thorough inspection and maintenance in the operational phase. Under the regulation and supervision of NRA (National Railway Administration), CRC is responsible for implementation of safety management through setting internal standards. It delegates the day-to-day implementation to the joint ventures and Regional Administrations throughout the construction phase and the operation phase.
> To ensure safe operation, China collects asset condition data through a mix of physical inspection and dynamic testing with instrumented equipment. These data are analyzed centrally to identify maintenance requirements. A four-hour window is provided every night for maintenance, and the first train on each HSR line each day is the “confirm train,” which checks that the HSR equipment is in good condition to operate the first passenger train. Comprehensive inspection trains (“Doctor Yellow”) run every 10 days to carry out a physical examination of HSR infrastructure (track, signals and communications, catenaries, and wheel–rail interaction).




Finance


> The sixth chapter explains the financing of the system. As might be expected, the financial picture varies from line to line. Heavily used 350 kph lines with average traffic densities of more than 40 million passengers per year and average revenue per passenger-kilometer (pkm) of Y (chinese yuan) 0.50 (US$0.074) are able to generate enough ticket revenue to pay for train operations, maintenance, and debt service.
> In contrast, many lines in China with traffic density of 10 million to 15 million passengers per year, especially 250 kph lines with average pkm revenue of Y 0.28 (US$0.041), can barely cover train operations and maintenance, and will be unable to contribute toward their debt service costs for many years. These results should not be interpreted as demonstrating that a 350 kph line is inherently more financially viable than a comparable 250 kph line. The main reason for the disparity in financial viability is the pricing policy that has been adopted in China. This issue has been recognized, and greater pricing flexibility is now being allowed.
> HSR prices need to be set at levels that are competitive with other modes and affordable for the population. In China, HSR prices are about onefourth of HSR prices in Europe (Note: 2017 France: US$0.24–0.31/km; Germany: US$0.34/km; Japan: US$0.29–0.31/km; Taiwan, China: US$0.13/km), but three to four times the cost of conventional rail tickets in China—including the very cheap “hard seat” tickets that are a public service of the China Railway Corporation (CRC).
> HSR prices are low enough that a broad range of income groups patronize the high-speed trains, representing now more than half of all intercity rail passengers and 1.7 billion passenger trips in 2017. The strong growth in HSR traffic indicates that many consumers in China are willing to pay substantially more for a higher-quality service. Continued strong patronage of conventional services also indicates a continued strong demand for lower-cost/lower-quality services and the need to offer a range of services at different price points to meet different passenger needs.
> 
> Options to improve cost coverage for loss-making lines include (i) increasing fares for 250 kph lines where traffic demand permits, (ii) increasing nonfare revenue, and (iii) providing government subsidy. Financial restructuring actions include (i) grouping feeder lines with main lines to pool revenues and costs and (ii) reprofiling principle repayments to shift payments to later years when traffic volumes are greater. Overall, the financial rate of return for the network as it was at end-2015 is estimated at 6 percent, a return on par with the cost of financing of CRC.




Page 61 Line financial performance.


> Only five 200–250 kph of the 16 lines are above the dark blue line, showing that they can cover their operating and maintenance costs. None of them is above the light blue line—that is, able to pay interest. The primary reason for this is the low fare, which had little adjustment since 2007. In 2016, CRC was given authority to adjust fares on lines with speeds higher than 200 kph and has adjusted fares in many such cases.
> The situation with the 300–350 kph HSR lines is more promising. All can cover their operating and maintenance costs. Nine out of the 15 lines can pay interest, and 5 of the eastern lines can repay the loan principal.


Economics


> The seventh chapter discusses the economic impact of the HSR services. These services provide major benefits to users in terms of reduced travel time, increased service frequencies, greater availability of seats, and improved comfort.
> Economic benefits also accrue from reductions in operating cost as users of higher-cost modes such as automobile and air transfer to HSR. These transfers also generally reduce externalities (accidents, highway congestion, and greenhouse gases). Benefits also derive from the deferral of the need to invest in expanding the capacity of other modes as a result of demand transferring to HSR.
> Other economic benefits are associated with improved regional connectivity. HSR can contribute to rebalancing growth geographically to reduce poverty and enhance inclusiveness. HSR is more attractive to customers when well connected to the cities it serves. In China, HSR stations are often built outside the downtown area for cost and urban development reasons. This placement increases the cost to customers of HSR (in terms of both time and money) and reduces its competitiveness. Improving links to the urban transport system can help overcome this disadvantage. Integrated urban development around the new stations brings the economic benefits of HSR to the local community.
> Overall, the economic results appear positive, even at this early stage. The economic rate of return of the network as it was in 2015 is estimated at 8 percent, well above the opportunity cost of capital adopted in China and most other countries for such major long-term infrastructure investments. There is thus a reason to be optimistic about the long-term economic viability of the major trunk railways of the HSR program in China.






> How much of this experience is replicable and potentially instructive for other countries considering investment in HSR? Potential lessons and replicable practices include
> • A well-analyzed Long-Term Plan, supported by government, with minimal changes once approved;
> • Standardization of designs;
> • Competitive supply industry;
> • Partnering with local government;
> • Project management structure with clear responsibilities and decision-making authority, managers who stay for the duration of the project, and significant incentive compensation for managers;
> • Safety system that identifies and manages risk during all project phases;
> • Service with high punctuality, frequency, and speed;
> • Value of good connectivity with conventional rail and urban transport;
> • High-volume, medium-distance markets;
> • Pricing that is affordable and competitive with other modes, and finds the “sweet spot” that maximizes revenue while not substantially discouraging ridership; and
> • Offering a range of services (high speed and conventional) at different price points to meet different passenger needs.





> The Chinese HSR story is not complete. China is continuing its ambitious plans to build out the systems to connect all regions. The financial viability of the existing network will continue to improve as traffic grows, but some lines with less traffic and lower prices will continue to face challenges. The use of more flexible demand-based tariffs and regular fare adjustments have a potential role to play. Opportunities to enhance the HSR experience through improved urban connectivity beckon. And the world will continue to learn from China’s highspeed rail experience.


China vs the world:


----------



## General Huo

> New China TV
> Published on Jul 7, 2019
> 
> China's busiest high-speed railway, linking Beijing with Shanghai, saw over 350,000 passenger trips made each day on average in the past eight years.


350,000 per day, that's about 1000 flights per day if 350 people per plane!!! And this is the peak day, it is the average in 8 years.

Beijing and Shanghai will have 2nd (east through Dongyin-Rizhao-Lianyungang-Nantong) and 3rd (west from Xiong'an-Shangqiu-Hefei-Hangzhou) high speed rail lines in near future.


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## cheehg

Gusiluz said:


> From the very very interesting and recent World Bank study: China´s High Speed Rail Development


Thanks. although I know a lot of stuff already, but it is interesting to read this report.


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## xinxingren

General Huo said:


> New China TV
> Published on Jul 7, 2019
> 
> China's busiest high-speed railway, linking Beijing with Shanghai, saw over 350,000 passenger trips made each day on average in the past eight years.


from Gusiluz above, Table 2.1: Beijing - Shanghai 44 trips per day each way, ie. total 88 trains =~ 4000 pax per train ??!! Now the notes to Table 2.1 do imply that it doesn't count shorter distance trains on the same line, but still ....

Elsewhere I have seen that at peak hours departures are every 3 minutes on this line. That 44 trips looked wrong the first time I read it hno:


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## General Huo

^^^^
I guess it also includes train starts in intermediate stations like G204 Nanjing to Beijing, or some trains partially use this line, like trains between Beijing to Hefei, Beijing to Hangzhou or Beijing to Fuzhou etc. 88 trains are simply those start and end at Beijing and Shanghai only.


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## foxmulder

General Huo said:


> CGTN
> Published on Sep 4, 2019
> 
> The track-laying process for the Chengdu-Guiyang Railway, one of China's most important railways in the country's southwest, was completed on Tuesday.


Is the railway passing through a cave?? Very interesting.


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## General Huo

foxmulder said:


> Is the railway passing through a cave?? Very interesting.


Yes, it is Yujingshan Tunnel. There is a big cave inside the tunnel. It takes 3 years to solve this problem. Basically a bridge is built inside the tunnel to cross the cave.

http://www.sohu.com/a/335767374_115423

With a total length of 6,306 meters, the Yujingshan Tunnel is a tunnel that integrates complex geological conditions such as gas outburst, large cave, soft surrounding rock and extraordinarily large water. It is also a high-risk tunnel of the whole line, and it encounters a giant karst hall during the construction. After many on-site explorations by domestic experts, it is agreed that this cave is the largest in the history of high-speed railway construction in China, the most complex in geology and hydrology, and the most difficult to treat.

According to the on-site measurement, the cave has a lateral length of about 230 meters and a width of about 93 meters. It is roughly rectangular, and the top of the cave is braided. The vertical height of the hall is about 45 to 130 meters. A dark river is also developed at the bottom of the slope of the karst hall. The width of the river is about 5 to 15 meters, and the water flow is urgent. "The size of such a cave is equivalent to three football fields, and the height is close to 50 floors." said the head of the project department of the China Railway Fifth Bureau.

After the expert meeting, the overall plan for the treatment of the cave was finally determined, “Dark River Reversal + Full Cave Filling + Bridge Leap”. On June 15, 2018, the backfilling tasks of the 1.42 million squares of the giant dark river caves in the Yujingshan Tunnel were completed, providing favorable conditions for the final “bridge crossing”. On June 28, 2019, the Yujingshan Tunnel giant cave continuous beam bridge was closed. The spectacle of "building a bridge in the cave" not only ignited the reputation and brand of the ace of the high-risk tunnel construction of the China Railway Five, but also provided a practical model for the treatment of the giant dark river cave in China's railway tunnel.


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## cheehg

General Huo said:


> Yes, it is Yujingshan Tunnel. There is a big cave inside the tunnel. It takes 3 years to solve this problem. Basically a bridge is built inside the tunnel to cross the cave.
> 
> http://www.sohu.com/a/335767374_115423
> 
> With a total length of 6,306 meters, the Yujingshan Tunnel is a tunnel that integrates complex geological conditions such as gas outburst, large cave, soft surrounding rock and extraordinarily large water. It is also a high-risk tunnel of the whole line, and it encounters a giant karst hall during the construction. After many on-site explorations by domestic experts, it is agreed that this cave is the largest in the history of high-speed railway construction in China, the most complex in geology and hydrology, and the most difficult to treat.
> 
> According to the on-site measurement, the cave has a lateral length of about 230 meters and a width of about 93 meters. It is roughly rectangular, and the top of the cave is braided. The vertical height of the hall is about 45 to 130 meters. A dark river is also developed at the bottom of the slope of the karst hall. The width of the river is about 5 to 15 meters, and the water flow is urgent. "The size of such a cave is equivalent to three football fields, and the height is close to 50 floors." said the head of the project department of the China Railway Fifth Bureau.
> 
> After the expert meeting, the overall plan for the treatment of the cave was finally determined, “Dark River Reversal + Full Cave Filling + Bridge Leap”. On June 15, 2018, the backfilling tasks of the 1.42 million squares of the giant dark river caves in the Yujingshan Tunnel were completed, providing favorable conditions for the final “bridge crossing”. On June 28, 2019, the Yujingshan Tunnel giant cave continuous beam bridge was closed. The spectacle of "building a bridge in the cave" not only ignited the reputation and brand of the ace of the high-risk tunnel construction of the China Railway Five, but also provided a practical model for the treatment of the giant dark river cave in China's railway tunnel.


China has built so many railway lines cross the karst regions. The whole Guizhou, Guangxi, Chongqing areas are full of them. too bad such important trunk line was downgraded to 250 km/h. 2011-2013 were the dark years of Chinese HSR. Xi'an-Chengdu, Guanzhou-Guiyang, Chengdu-Guiyang, Taiyuan-Xi'an, Lanzhou-Baoji lines were downgraded. Although by Japanese standard, those lines are perfectly for 300 km/h or higher.


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## General Huo

Nanchang-Ganzhou HSR starts joint test

http://www.sohu.com/a/339313899_441345


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## WdoubleUweb

*Beijing to Guangzhou High Speed Rail*

Images from https://baike.baidu.com and modified by PhotoShop to add English annotations.


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## General Huo

Chongqing-Kunming HSR is approved

http://www.sina.com.cn/midpage/mobi...a.cn/2019-09-10/detail-iicezzrq4896717.d.html

The project starts from Chongqing West Hub of Chongqing Hub, via Jiangjin District and Yongchuan District of Chongqing, Zhangzhou City of Yizhou City, Yibin City, Bijie City of Guizhou Province, Zhaotong City of Yunnan Province, Kunming South Station of Qujing City to Kunming Hub. The high-speed railway is connected to form a high-speed railway corridor from Chengdu to Kunming. The project is designed according to the double-line speed of 350 kilometers per hour. There are 20 stations (1 reserved station), the mileage of the line is about 699 kilometers, the total investment estimate is 141.6 billion yuan, and the construction period of the whole line is 6 years.


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## General Huo

Zhengzhou-Wanzhou HSR in Baokang county. Baokang section of total mileage of 63.2 kilometers has 11 bridges, 12 tunnels. Bridges and tunnels are 99.6% length of this section! It is expected that the whole line will be completed and opened in 2022.

http://www.ysxyapp.com/news/detail/no/i1568342524caiji00000000001870.html
http://slide.hb.sina.com.cn/n/slide_34_21128_572452.html#p=1


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## General Huo




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## Make_TT

Looks like it will take years to update the HSR map on Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#/media/File%3ARail_map_of_PRC.svg


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## General Huo

Nanchang-Ganzhou HSR has a designed operational speed of 350 km/h. Every new line in China before opening will be under testing with higher speed. Currently, this new HSR is under test run at 380 km/h.

http://sj.jxnews.com.cn/index.php/Index/Index/news/id/55030


----------



## General Huo

Jinan-Laiwu HSR starts construction today. Laiwu just merged into Jinan metropolitan a year ago.

http://sd.ifeng.com/a/20190918/7727375_0.shtml

the Ji-Lai high-speed rail construction project will hold a groundbreaking ceremony. the length of the main line of the Zile High Speed ​​Rail is 117.155 kilometers, 52 main bridges, accounting for 41.87% of the total length of the line. There are 23 tunnels in the whole line, accounting for 35.47% of the length of the main line. Jinan East Station and Port are set along the line. There are 6 stations in Ditch Station, Zhangqiu South Station, Xueye Station, Laiwu North Station and Gangcheng East Station. After opening to traffic, Ji-Lai is the fastest 22.5 minutes.


----------



## indianrailfan

cheehg said:


> China has built so many railway lines cross the karst regions. The whole Guizhou, Guangxi, Chongqing areas are full of them. too bad such important trunk line was downgraded to 250 km/h. 2011-2013 were the dark years of Chinese HSR. Xi'an-Chengdu, Guanzhou-Guiyang, Chengdu-Guiyang, Taiyuan-Xi'an, Lanzhou-Baoji lines were downgraded. Although by Japanese standard, those lines are perfectly for 300 km/h or higher.


Did they only downgrade their operating speed or were their design speed was lowered as well? Operating speed can be increased later but if the PDL was redesigned for lower speed that can't be changed later.


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## chornedsnorkack

It is 1st of October, 2019, soon. Will any new high speed railways open for those holidays?


----------



## General Huo

chornedsnorkack said:


> It is 1st of October, 2019, soon. Will any new high speed railways open for those holidays?


Before Oct 1, 
1) Beijing-Daxing Airport, 36km, 250km/h
2) Meizhou-Chaoshan, 123km, 250km/h
3) Yinchuan-Wuzhong-Zhongwei, 212km, 250km/h
4) Xintang-Shenzhen airport, 76km, 160km/h
5) Haolebaoji-Ji'an, 1814km, 120km/h, heavy-duty coal freight transportation
6) Golmud-Korla Qinghai section, 506km, 160km/h
7) Dunhuang-Golmud (Subei-Mahai), 173km, 120km/h

Many more on December.

https://www.wxnmh.com/thread-5730473.htm


----------



## chornedsnorkack

How long are public holidays this year?
Are they any longer than usual because 2019 is 70th anniversary and therefore rounder than usual years?
How many Chinese travel long distance for 1st of October holidays? How have the crowds for 1st of October holidays compared to the crowds for New Year in previous years?
Does Chinese HSR network have space on rails for special holiday trains and free high speed trains available?


----------



## General Huo

New China TV
495K subscribers

What is the "heart" of China's 600 kph maglev train? Key components of the high-speed maglev train have been unveiled in Zhuzhou.


----------



## General Huo

Nanjing-Huai'an HSR starts construction today

http://www.sohu.com/a/342262303_349956

The Ninghuai Intercity Railway starts from Huai'an and passes through Hongze, Jinhu, Anhui Tianchang to Nanjing. The length of the Jiangsu section is 156.3 kilometers, and the design speed target is 350 km/h. The Nanjing section is located south of Yeshan in Liuhe District, and is adjacent to the North Yanjiang High-speed Railway near Ma'an Airport. It is located at Liuhe West Station and then introduced to Nanjing North Station in parallel with the North Yanjiang High-speed Railway. The total length of the line is about 60 kilometers, and the estimated investment is about 21.5 billion yuan. The first to start today is the pilot section of the Huanglou to Hongze Bridge.

A schematic diagram of the Ninghuai Intercity Railway. Provincial Development and Reform Commission for the map









A simple schematic diagram of the Ninghuai Intercity Railway. Profile picture









Newly built location map of Nanjing to Huai'an Railway. Profile picture









Schematic diagram of the general layout of the Nanjing Railway Hub. City Transportation Bureau


----------



## General Huo

Beijing-Daxing Intercity rail
http://www.chinanews.com/tp/hd2011/2019/09-20/903126.shtml#nextpage


----------



## General Huo

Beijing West to Daxing Airport

http://www.sohu.com/a/342430566_114731


----------



## General Huo

Beijing West to Daxing Airport
http://www.sohu.com/a/342292223_162645


----------



## General Huo

http://slide.news.sina.com.cn/slide_1_2841_397048.html#p=1


----------



## General Huo

http://www.sohu.com/a/342292316_120209831


----------



## NCT

General Huo said:


>


Ridiculous fortification.

For an airport express passengers should be let through into the paid area and onto the platforms just like a metro system.

Thanks for the pictures.


----------



## General Huo

NCT said:


> Ridiculous fortification.
> 
> For an airport express passengers should be let through into the paid area and onto the platforms just like a metro system.
> 
> Thanks for the pictures.


There is a separate metro line from city (Caoqiao) to airport. And a new line to PEK which hasn't been built yet.


----------



## SoapKa

NCT said:


> General Huo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ridiculous fortification.
> 
> For an airport express passengers should be let through into the paid area and onto the platforms just like a metro system.
> 
> Thanks for the pictures.
Click to expand...

I don't think Beijing-Xiong'an intercity railway count as "Airport Express", it is just an intercity railway from Beijing to Xiong'an, although the Daxing Airport to Xiong'an section will only open in 2020. There is another line, "Daxing Airport Express of Beijing Subway" from Caoqiao to Daxing Airport, that's really an Airport express.

Actually some people are saying there are only 6 trains per day on Beijing-Xiong'an intercity railway from Beijing West to Daxing Airport. And another 6 trains only run from Beijingdaxing (located near Huangcun) to Daxing Airport. For comparison, the frequency for the Daxing Airport Express of Beijing Subway is 8 minutes.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Will there be a line connecting Beijing South HSR to Daxing airport?


----------



## Make_TT




----------



## General Huo




----------



## ccdk




----------



## saiho

Wuguang HSR by Tokibobo


----------



## zergcerebrates

What is up with this hideous looking facade? What station is this? This is a new station for the airport?!!


----------



## zergcerebrates

How many different types of platforms does the Beijing airport have? The other Daxing airport platform pics I saw doesn't look like this. Its white with a higher ceiling and a much wider floor area. Is one for HS rail and one for metro?


----------



## zergcerebrates

How many Beijing stations will have trains to Daxing Airport?


----------



## maginn

zergcerebrates said:


> How many Beijing stations will have trains to Daxing Airport?


Only the new line from Beijing West to Daxing International Airport (via a newly-constructed Beijing Daxing railway station). 
This is the first phase of the Beijing-Xiong’an intercity HSR line, the rest of it is in Hebei province.


----------



## SoapKa

zergcerebrates said:


> What is up with this hideous looking facade? What station is this? This is a new station for the airport?!!


This is Beijing West Railway Station, if you can read Chinese language, there is text in the photo says : 北京西站欢迎您 (Beijing West Railway Station welcomes you)


----------



## foxmulder

maginn said:


> Only the new line from Beijing West to Daxing International Airport (via a newly-constructed Beijing Daxing railway station).
> This is the first phase of the Beijing-Xiong’an intercity HSR line, the rest of it is in Hebei province.



There will be also Tianjin to Daxing HSR.


----------



## Bhurki18

Can somebody post an updated list of china hsr in operation and under construction? Also, is there data for total track of hsr( as opposed to total route of hsr)?


----------



## Make_TT

Almost two years and the HSR map on Wikipedia is NOT even updated..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#/media/File%3ARail_map_of_PRC.svg


----------



## Gusiluz

*My list of lines since 2003 and under construction*

Since the beginning of the HSR I have my own list (also from the rest of the countries with HST), try to compile all the new construction lines for speeds of 200 km/h or more as long as they are not mixed lines. 
There are exceptions (marked as "Mixta") if they are part of the 8 + 8 PDL main axes. I also indicate if they are not on the UIC list ("No UIC"). At the end I include a list of lines that I did not include, and the reasons; for example: many times they announce already existing conventional mixed lines where CRH trains start to run ("Solo servicio CRH").
The file is in Spanish, and the dates are day/month/year. In blue the lines are under construction.

The list is at this link.

A visual summary updated September 26, 2019:

It can be seen that the year with the highest number of inaugurations was 2014 (also 2013 and 2015) and how, after the dismissal of the Minister of Railways Liu Zhijun (February 2011) and the change in the policy of prices and speeds (April 2011 by the new minister, Sheng Guangzu, as we see: before the fatal accident in Wenzhou), decreases the number of lines to 350 km/h and increases the 250 km/h (is checked since 2013). In 2014 Lanzhou-Hami was inaugurated at 250 km/h (and 200 in the Qilian Mountains) although it was planned for 300.


----------



## lookback718

*Work on China’s 1,000km maglev railway “to begin next year”*

Work on China’s 1,000km maglev railway “to begin next year”



> Work on building a 1,000km-long, super-fast magnetic levitation (maglev) railway in China between Guangzhou and Wuhan is expected to start next year, according to local media.
> Trains would travel at between 600km/h and a theoretical maximum of 1,000 km/h, cutting the travel time between the two cities from about 10 hours to two.
> 
> The maglev system keeps rolling stock hovering above rails, allowing high speeds by removing friction.
> 
> The line will be built by the Wuhan-based China Railway Siyuan Survey and Design Group, a subsidiary of China Railway Construction Corporation, the Wuhan Evening News reported, according to the English-language China news site, Thatsmag.com.
> 
> Jing Shiyuan, an engineer with Siyuan, told the newspaper that the project was initiated in 2015 and a train model was readied for testing the following year.
> 
> Work will start in Hubei province, of which Wuhan is the capital.
> 
> China started operating its first maglev railway in 2002, a 30-km-long line between Shanghai Pudong International Airport and Longyang Road Station, but has since concentrated on conventional high-speed rail.
> 
> Now, more ambitious maglev plans are taking shape. In May, China Railway Rolling Stock Corporation completed a factory to make maglev rolling stock in Qingdao, and the body of a prototype that could reach speeds of 600km/h was revealed to media. The company hopes to begin serial production of the unit some time in 2021.
> 
> And last week a set of technical standards for maglev rail was released by the National Railway Administration, with a view to implementation at the beginning of next year. The standards unify basic technical requirements including track gauge and clarified main specifications of maglev trains.
> 
> Image: Guangzhou, pictured, is a city of about 10.6 million, and Wuhan has around 7.5 million people (Chensiyuan/CC BY-SA 4.0)


http://www.globalconstructionreview.com/news/work-chinas-1000km-maglev-railway-begin-next-year/


----------



## Bhurki18

@Gusiluz - Only 188 km opened until sept'19? Seems highly unlikely..


----------



## General Huo

One year and 3 months after Jiangmen-Zhanjiang Railway (200km/h, both passenger and freight transportation) opened, new 350km/h Guangzhou-Zhanjiang HSR started construction on September 30, 2019. It sets to open by 2024.

http://www.sohu.com/a/344665180_174529
http://www.sohu.com/a/344578779_365592
http://www.sohu.com/a/344646411_178533















































New Baiyun Railway Station









And new station will built with new Pearl River Delta Airport.

Maoming South Station


----------



## Gusiluz

Bhurki18 said:


> @Gusiluz - Only 188 km opened until sept'19? Seems highly unlikely..


I don't rule out in any way out missing lines on my list (I'm less and less interested in entering these forums, and your message reaffirms me on it), you could have researched other years in my document instead of simply criticizing. Although it is true that the latter is simpler and more comfortable. Also: it was you who asked for information in your first message in this Forum; you do start well! :troll: :bash:

Until September 30, in 2018 was inaugurated 28% of the annual total, 35% in 2017 and 32% in 2016. If we also removed September (another month with enough openings), it would be reduced to 23 28 and 14%. And this is because the bulk of openings in China occur during the December schedule change.


----------



## Bhurki18

I didn't mean to convey any critical criticism in my reply and express regret if I wasn't successful. I've been following the list for a long time now and appreciate your diligence in maintaining it.
Thank you for clarifying.


----------



## General Huo

railroad is not like highway, you can't just open a route and the traffic can come naturally. You need to make timetable for railroad, especially for large country, a super-large network like China and there are so many passenger HSR, non-HSR lines. It will be simpler to make new timetable as few as possible. China chooses the end of each year, so most of new lines are open all together.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

lookback718 said:


> Work on China’s 1,000km maglev railway “to begin next year”
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.globalconstructionreview.com/news/work-chinas-1000km-maglev-railway-begin-next-year/


The link contains an absurd quote - the link´s, not poster´s:


> Trains would travel at between 600km/h and a theoretical maximum of 1,000 km/h, cutting the travel time between the two cities from about 10 hours to two.


Which is absurd.
Z36 does indeed take 10:36 for 1069 km.
But G80 already covers 968 km in 3:38!


----------



## General Huo




----------



## damndynamite

There's no info on the Internet it seems on when the Beijing-Chengde HSR will be completed. This is probably the longest delayed HSR in China. The main reason is NIMBYs in affluent parts of Beijing have protested construction and compelled redesign. But I would think the problems are resolved by now?

In any case it goes to show what a good idea construction of maybe 50,000 km of HSR by 2030 is. If it's not done now, then rising affluence and awareness of individual rights at the expense of general prosperity will make sure these projects could never get done.


----------



## General Huo

^^^^
https://news.sina.com.cn/c/2019-06-28/doc-ihytcitk8346231.shtml

It is said by the end of 2020. The station in Beijing is top-out. 95% tunnel work is done and 69% bridge work is done. Should be no problem now.


----------



## Silly_Walks

damndynamite said:


> There's no info on the Internet it seems on when the Beijing-Chengde HSR will be completed. This is probably the longest delayed HSR in China. The main reason is NIMBYs in affluent parts of Beijing have protested construction and compelled redesign. But I would think the problems are resolved by now?
> 
> In any case it goes to show what a good idea construction of maybe 50,000 km of HSR by 2030 is. *If it's not done now, then rising affluence and awareness of individual rights at the expense of general prosperity will make sure these projects could never get done.*


8 years ago I pleaded in front of a classroom of Nanjing college students to 'beware the NIMBY', and make sure their metro plans are realized as quickly as possible, or otherwise it will not be possible to do so in the future.

I still think that's largely true, but I also think Xi's China cares less about such frivolous things as NIMBY's, so it might be less of an issue nowadays.


----------



## General Huo

hangjiajie to Huaihua high speed railway
航拍张吉怀高铁


----------



## ddes

damndynamite said:


> There's no info on the Internet it seems on when the Beijing-Chengde HSR will be completed. This is probably the longest delayed HSR in China. The main reason is NIMBYs in affluent parts of Beijing have protested construction and compelled redesign. But I would think the problems are resolved by now?
> 
> In any case it goes to show what a good idea construction of maybe 50,000 km of HSR by 2030 is. If it's not done now, then rising affluence and awareness of individual rights at the expense of general prosperity will make sure these projects could never get done.


Chengde? The city that hosts Chengde Puning Airport?

I thought they mentioned somewhere that it was delayed because it was subject to further planning? After Xiong'an, Tongzhou developments were done, the next phase to expand the capital, would be towards Chengde, and eastwards/ northeastward towards Tangshan and Qinhuangdao.


----------



## gao7

*Bullet train conducts test run on Xingwen-Guiyang section of Chengdu-Guiyang railway*



















> Staff members work aboard a bullet train during a test run on the Xingwen-Guiyang section of the Chengdu-Guiyang railway, Oct. 9, 2019. The 632-kilometer Chengdu-Guiyang railway is a key constituent of China's high-speed railway network, linking the capital of Sichuan Province and the capital of Guizhou Province with a design speed of 250 kilometers per hour. Sections of the railway in Sichuan are already in use, while the whole line will be in operation by the end of this year.


http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-10/09/c_138458998_3.htm


----------



## General Huo

Meizhou-Chaoshan High Speed Rail opens to traffic today
http://www.sohu.com/a/346110399_100175962
http://www.sohu.com/a/346030493_100175962


----------



## General Huo

Red lines are those passenger railroad (most of them HSR) open in 2019









Beijing-Zhangjiakou









Chengdu-Guiyang


----------



## Woonsocket54

"*Xiongan Station's underground major structure to be completed*"

http://www.china.org.cn/photos/2019-10/11/content_75290204.htm









Railway builders work at the construction site of Xiongan Station of Beijing-Xiongan intercity high-speed railway in Xiongan New Area, north China's Hebei Province, October 10, 2019. Covering an area of 470,000 square meters, Xiongan Station is consisted of three floors above ground and two floors beneath ground. (Photo/Xinhua)









Aerial photo taken on October 10, 2019 shows the Xiongan Station of Beijing-Xiongan intercity high-speed railway under construction in Xiongan New Area, north China's Hebei Province. The major structure underground will soon be completed and workers now move to the construction above ground. (Photo/Xinhua)


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## laojang

does not look likely so soon. the current travel time is around 4 hours by high spped train. the maglev only saves 1 and at most 2 hours. they may have some short test tracks in the near future.


----------



## General Huo

Lunan (souther Shandong) HSR sets to open in Nov 26, 2019

http://www.sohu.com/a/345823997_99968569

Linyi North Station



































































































Mengshan station


















Feixian North station


















Lvnan North Station


















Lijiazhai Station


----------



## cheehg

I like Linyi North station. At least it is not square.


----------



## foxmulder

Great updates Huo, thanks!


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## chornedsnorkack

cheehg said:


> This is official reason but I think the main reason is that they don't need to run the HS trains in the legacy lines anymore since almost all the main corridors already have parallel HSR.


That´s on countryside, though. Cutting brand new corridors through existing central cities is difficult, though it was done for Futian Station. So how about getting high speed trains at slow speed into existing central city stations? Would not be possible with maglev.


----------



## FM 2258

foxmulder said:


> A little bit old but still a nice CRH porn  CRH trains passing stations at full speed:


I've been looking for this video and couldn't find it again until now. Thank you.


----------



## General Huo




----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Thanks for the video!
I see that it does not finally resemble 


... either of the two initial proposals:




Nor the high side lights of the front.


----------



## cheehg

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Thanks for the video!
> I see that it does not finally resemble
> 
> 
> ... either of the two initial proposals:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nor the high side lights of the front.


I think this is the same one they tested on Shenyang-Chengde line last year. The 2022 winter Olympic ones should be introduced later.


----------



## hkskyline

Guangzhou South Train Station by 张越东, on Flickr


----------



## General Huo




----------



## damndynamite

Is the Beijing to Chengde scheduled to be completed? It seems to be the most delayed HSR ever. Were the delays due to NIMBY issues in Beijing?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Yes, by the end of 2020. 
And my first date of completion is 2012 :bash: :nuts:


----------



## cheehg

damndynamite said:


> Is the Beijing to Chengde scheduled to be completed? It seems to be the most delayed HSR ever. Were the delays due to NIMBY issues in Beijing?


Yes. NIMY. But I think most trains will still go to Beijing station instead of suburban Xinghuo station. Most legacy line trains will be moved to Fengtai station in 2020.


----------



## cheehg

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Yes, by the end of 2020.
> And my first date of completion is 2012 :bash: :nuts:


Not bad compare to others but bad by Chinese standard.


----------



## General Huo

14 HSR lines set to open in 2019
http://www.sohu.com/a/355270287_682294


















red lines are HSR open in 2019


----------



## General Huo

QianZhangChang HSR (200km/h)


----------



## General Huo

Rizhao-Qufu section of Rizhao-Lankao high-speed railway starts operation in E China


----------



## General Huo

China sets to have 139,000 km rail, including 35,000 km HSR, running by end of 2019.


----------



## General Huo

Wuhan-Shiyan HSR opens to traffic.
http://hb.ifeng.com/a/20191129/7891598_0.shtml


----------



## General Huo

izhao-Qufu section of Rizhao-Lankao high-speed railway
http://sd.ifeng.com/a/20191125/7842870_0.shtml


----------



## General Huo

Nanchang to Ganzhou High-speed Railway
航拍昌赣高铁


----------



## Bhurki18

General Huo said:


> China sets to have 139,000 km rail, including 35,000 km HSR, running by end of 2019.


Total at end of 2018 was 29200 km. This year addition will be 3700km. Shouldn't the total be 32900km?


----------



## cheehg

General Huo said:


> Wuhan-Shiyan HSR opens to traffic.
> http://hb.ifeng.com/a/20191129/7891598_0.shtml


Good to see they turn the big square to parking lot.


----------



## General Huo

New high-speed railway put into operation in Hubei, China


----------



## General Huo

Three high-speed railways linking China's Henan with other cities start operation Sunday.


----------



## General Huo

Zhengzhou-Wanzhou HSR in Henan section


----------



## NCT

cheehg said:


> Good to see they turn the big square to parking lot.


Even better if they had a human-scaled station in the population centre connected by public transport with good cycle parking facilities with minimal parking.


----------



## General Huo




----------



## General Huo




----------



## chornedsnorkack

General Huo said:


> Three high-speed railways linking China's Henan with other cities start operation Sunday.


Absurd. Henan is a province, and not in any sense a city.


----------



## General Huo

Chengdu-Guiyang HSR sets to open soon


----------



## General Huo

Shangqiu to Hefei High-speed Railway
航拍商合杭高铁通车


----------



## damndynamite

What were the specific issues that caused Chengde HSR to be delayed by 8 years?


----------



## General Huo

damndynamite said:


> What were the specific issues that caused Chengde HSR to be delayed by 8 years?


Main reason is the residents in Beijing don't want this HSR passing by their houses. This can't be settled for years. The house price in Beijing is sky high, so it is impossible to compensate all these residents. After several years delay, this HSR will stop at Xinghuo station, not Beijing Railway Station as original plan. The line connect Xinghuo to Beijing Railway Station will use current low speed railroad. Half of trains will just stop at Xinghuo. In addition, a long tunnel is built between Beijing suburban to Xinghuo Station to minimize noise influence to residents, where much less dense now comparing to where between Xinghuo and Beijing Station.

minor reasons may be the weaker economy in NE China, and there is also old Beijing-Harbin Rail which can run 160km/h and Qinghuangdao-Shenyang PDL which can run 250km/h. So it is not that urgent to build a new line.


----------



## damndynamite

@General Huo Thanks that clear up a lot. It shows why it makes so much sense to in this decade build so much HSR. If it's not done now then most of the envisioned projects will never be completed because of high real estate prices and the increase capacity of affluent city people to resort to protest and legal challenges.


----------



## damndynamite

The Yantai to Dalian undersea rail tunnel and bridge system across the Bohai Sea is in advanced planning. The price tag for the project is 300 billion RMB comparable to the 216 billion for completing the middle section of the Sichuan-Tibet railway. I think the Yantai-Dalian tunnel should definitely be built before the Sichuan-Tibet railway. Reportedly, construction should have started this year on the middle section of the Sichuan-Tibet railway but I haven't seen confirmation yet.

Anyways, here's what Caixin Global (English edition of Caixin) has to say about the tunnel/bridge project:



> The planned tunnel, spanning 125 kilometers beneath the sea, would surpass the combined length of the world’s two longest underwater tunnels — Japan’s Seikan Tunnel and the Channel Tunnel between the U.K. and France.
> 
> Construction would cost 300 billion yuan ($43 billion) based on preliminary estimates, more than double the cost of the world's longest sea bridge linking Hong Kong, Zhuhai and Macao, which was completed last year, according to Sun. If construction starts in 2020, the project would be likely to reach completion by 2039, Sun said.












https://www.caixinglobal.com/2019-0...ct-the-longest-undersea-tunnel-101418352.html


----------



## Sunfuns

damndynamite said:


> It shows why it makes so much sense to in this decade build so much HSR. If it's not done now then most of the envisioned projects will never be completed because of high real estate prices and the increase capacity of affluent city people to resort to protest and legal challenges.


This is true however much richer countries still do build HSR (France, Spain, Japan). Not on Chinese scale for sure, but there is no need either in these much smaller countries.


----------



## TER200

Sunfuns said:


> This is true however much richer countries still do build HSR (France, Spain, Japan). Not on Chinese scale for sure, but there is no need either in these much smaller countries.


I don't know how they do in Spain and Japan, but here in France we just don't build new tracks in cities, only through the countryside.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

TER200 said:


> I don't know how they do in Spain and Japan, but here in France we just don't build new tracks in cities, only through the countryside.


In France, unlike Spain and Japan, TGV has the same track gauge as slow speed rail. Therefore there is little need to build new tracks into cities, because TGV can share tracks with slow speed trains and approach existing stations on existing tracks, at appropriately slow speed.

China HSR shares slow speed rain track gauge, too. How well does China HSR do sharing existing station tracks with slow speed trains?


----------



## General Huo

Zhengzhou-Fuyang HSR


----------



## Sunfuns

chornedsnorkack said:


> In France, unlike Spain and Japan, TGV has the same track gauge as slow speed rail. Therefore there is little need to build new tracks into cities, because TGV can share tracks with slow speed trains and approach existing stations on existing tracks, at appropriately slow speed.
> 
> China HSR shares slow speed rain track gauge, too. How well does China HSR do sharing existing station tracks with slow speed trains?


In China there is a different approach to this - they usually build new stations a fair distance from the city center and then connect them with a subway. It results in superb average speeds for the HSR lines, but overall average speed city center to city center probably not that different from France where stations tend to be much closer to the real center and HS services share the last kilometers with regular rail.


----------



## General Huo

Nanchang-Ganzhou HSR test run


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Sunfuns said:


> In China there is a different approach to this - they usually build new stations a fair distance from the city center and then connect them with a subway. It results in superb average speeds for the HSR lines, but overall average speed city center to city center probably not that different from France where stations tend to be much closer to the real center and HS services share the last kilometers with regular rail.


The Chinese approach is useful when the service does not terminate in the city, but continues to different cities. This way, the long distance trips are not slowed down by passage through central cities. Whereas in the terminus, forcing passengers to transfer to subway is extra inconvenience.

How well is Shenyang-Qinhuangdao HSR in Beijing connected with the other HSR-s in Beijing?

I mean, since Beijing-Zhangjiakou-Hohhot HSR is to open soon, how are the 4 HSR-s into Beijing routed through and around suburbs of Beijing, and which suburban stations do they stop in?

The 4 HSR directions are:

Beijing-Zhangjiakou-Hohhot
Beijing-Qinhuangdao-Shenyang
Beijing-Tianjin-Shanghai
Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou

Where in Beijing would a direct train Zhangjiakou-Shenyang stop and pick up passengers? Where would Zhangjiakou-Shanghai stop? Zhangjiakou-Guangzhou?


----------



## damndynamite

OK - would it be possible to post a screenshot?


----------



## cheehg

damndynamite said:


> OK - would it be possible to post a screenshot?


😄Still don't know how. It doesn't allow to attach from my computer files.


----------



## General Huo

Beijing-Zhangjiakou HSR teaser
視頻日期：2019年12月17日
列車車型：CR400BF-G-5114


----------



## General Huo

Wuhan-Shiyan HSR testing footage


----------



## General Huo

Nanchang-Ganzhou HSR testing footage shot at 9/10/2019


----------



## General Huo

Zhengzhou-Xiangyang HSR


----------



## Make_TT

Mega road-rail bridge planned to connect Hainan

Bridge spanning the turbulent Qiongzhou Strait will link the resort island to Guangdong province

Another mega project is in the making as Beijing aims to marshall bullet trains across a 33-kilometer strait to bring the tropical resort island of Hainan into the national sprawling high-speed rail network

The centerpiece of the multibillion-yuan rail link is a double-decked road-rail sea-crossing bridge between Haikou, Hainan's provincial capital, and Zhanjiang in Guangdong province, which will traverse the Qiongzhou Strait, a billowing channel usually battered by typhoons in summer.

China Railway Co has reportedly convened a feasibility study for the bridge and Beijing is expected to give its go-ahead. Chinese engineers look to replicate their expertise and experience gained from building other mega projects during the decade-long infrastructure bonanza, from the 36-km sea-crossing bridge linking Ningbo to Shanghai in eastern China to the 55-km Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macau Bridge commissioned in October.

The major challenges facing constructors, however, are strong gales and waves which may dislodge bridge piers, a complex terrain and a trench on the bottom of the strait, which will mean extra piling work.


The train-ferry service across the Qionghai Strait. Photos: Xinhua
Tourists who flock to the sea-locked Hainan, dubbed China's Hawaii, can now only travel in planes or ferries, despite the fact that the island operates its ring express railway network.

And, as a stopgap measure in the absence of a bridge, trains heading for Guangdong and elsewhere must be detached into separate passenger compartments and towed aboard purpose-built, 23,000-ton ferries to cross the strait before continuing their journey to their final destinations. Still, storms in the typhoon season between April and October and winter mist can easily snarl the train-ferry service.

Hainan saw a huge tailback of vehicles with tens of thousands of passengers and tourists stranded at Haikou's ferry pier during last year's Chinese New Year break when heavy fog sealed off the strait for almost a week.

Last year was hailed as a banner year in Hainan's development, when Beijing unveiled ambitious policy initiatives to transform the economic backwater into a free trade zone and financial hub, a backdrop against which the massive strait bridge project was proposed.


https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/03/article/mega-road-rail-bridge-planned-to-plug-connect-hainan/


----------



## chornedsnorkack

So the current preference is for a bridge over a tunnel?
How is the progress of Zhenjiang-Haian high speed railway?


----------



## maginn

The Zhenjiang-Hai’an high-speed railway hasn’t even begun construction yet, and probably won’t until there is a finalized plan for the bridge over to Haikou.


----------



## General Huo

I think he meant to ask Zhenjiang-Huai'an, not Zhanjiang-Hainan.

Zhenjiang-Huai'an HSR should open in 2020. The Wufengshan Yangtse River Bridge used for Zhenjiang-Huai'an HSR set to be built in July, 2020.


----------



## dbhaskar

*New model of high-speed inter-city trains operational in Central China*

Source: ECNS | Dec 24 2019

A new model of high-speed trains designed for inter-city transportation was put into operation Tuesday in Central China's Hunan province.

With a design speed of 160 kph, the CJ6 trains were jointly developed by an inter-city railway company in Hunan and CRRC Zhuzhou Locomotive Co., Ltd.

The new trains are versatile, as they can run in four-car formations during non-rush hours and eight or 16-car formations during rush hours, said Zhou Qinghe, chairman of CRRC Zhuzhou Locomotive.

Using light-weight materials and equipped with a braking system powered by recycled energy, the new model is also energy-conserving and environmentally friendly, according to Zhou.

Industry analysts said the operation of the new trains will help boost the integration of cities in Hunan.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

General Huo said:


> I think he meant to ask Zhenjiang-Huai'an, not Zhanjiang-Hainan.


Sorry - I did mean Zhanjiang-Haian.
Does in mean HSR passengers to Hainan must connect to slow speed railway at Zhanjiang, then to ship at Haian, then to train at Haikou? Or do high speed trainsets use slow speed lines at slow speed where needed, so passengers can just connect from HSR train to ship at Haian?
Is Zhanjiang-Haian slow speed railway electrified, or do EMU-s have to be dragged by diesel locomotives over that branch?


----------



## maginn

All I know is that high-speed trains terminate at Zhanjiangxi station and don’t continue further south on the old line. 
There are however regular buses from Zhanjiangxi to Hai’an port for the ferries, and long-distance bus routes that travel onwards into various parts of Hainan province as well.


----------



## Bhurki18

Its about time now.. Someone should upload the updated hsr map and new added lines...
@Gusiluz..?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ You'll have to be patient, I told you that most of the new lines that will be put into service will be during the timetable change on 30 December.

The last update I have:



China Eight-by-eight PDL north:

China Eight-by-eight PDL south:



On the other hand, I remind you that there are *specific Threads for Maglev trains*:

China Maglev
Japan Maglev
MISC | Maglev or Conventional Rail?


----------



## Bhurki18

*High-speed railway to "cradle of Chinese revolution" opens*
















NANCHANG, Dec. 26 (Xinhua) -- A high-speed railway opened on Thursday threading Nanchang, capital of east China's Jiangxi Province, Jinggangshan, the "cradle of the Chinese revolution," and China's rare earth base of Ganzhou.

The high-speed railway with a design speed of 350 km per hour shortens the former train trip of more than 4 hours to less than 2 hours on the 418-km line.

The railway is connected with both China's vertical artery of the Beijing-Hong Kong High-speed Railway and the horizontal artery of the Shanghai-Kunming High-Speed Railway.

Jinggangshan has become a famous tourist destination for visitors from home and abroad, which boasts both pristine natural scenery and the cultural heritage of the revolution.

The first railway was laid to the city in 2006, and in May 2004, the Jinggangshan Airport opened, injecting great vitality into the mountainous area.

"The opening of the high-speed railway service has further accelerated the development of the old revolutionary base," said Chen Shenghua, professor at the China Executive Leadership Academy Jinggangshan.

An economic development zone has been planned near the Ji'an West Railway Station in Jinggangshan, which has a planned area of 7.6 square km.

Xiao Xin, chairman of Ji'an City Investment Holding Group Co., Ltd., said the development zone with an investment of more than 15 billion yuan (around 2.14 billion U.S. dollars) will feature exhibitions and tourism.

"The high-speed railway has opened up a new channel for Jinggangshan. Many enterprises from the coastal provinces are eyeing the mountain tourist resources in the area," said Xiao.


----------



## Bhurki18

*High-speed rail connects southwest, central China regions*
Source: Xinhua| 2019-12-26 13:15:25|
CHONGQING, Dec. 26 (Xinhua) -- A high-speed railway line was put into operation Thursday, connecting southwest China's Chongqing Municipality and a city in central Hunan Province.

The 335-km-long rail line links Qianjiang district of Chongqing and the city of Changde in Hunan, passing seven railway stations with a maximum speed of 200 kph in its initial phase of operation.

The railway is part of a major high-speed rail line connecting Chongqing; Changsha, capital of Hunan; and Xiamen in southeast China's Fujian Province.


----------



## General Huo

Qianjiang-Zhangjiajie-Changde railway opens today

http://www.sohu.com/a/362635758_346081


----------



## General Huo




----------



## General Huo

Hefei-Anqing HSR laying tracks


----------



## hkskyline

2000 more km of high-speed lines to be built this year : https://www.chinadailyhk.com/articles/179/91/174/1578018266297.html?newsId=117407


----------



## Bhurki18

Bhurki18 said:


> Why is there no confirmation by xinhua about total length of hsr network as they do every year?
> Effect of trade war? (Stay low, dont show?)


Finally, some stats..
https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202001/03/WS5e0e4d2fa310cf3e35582272.html

In 2019, *802.9 billion yuan was spent on railways in China and 8,489 km of new track became operational*, surpassing the annual targets of 800 billion yuan for investment and 6,800 km of new lines.

As a result, the nation's fast-expanding *railway network reached a total length of 139,000 km by the end of last year, while the high-speed rail network exceeded 35,000 km*, a year ahead of China's plan to build a total of 30,000 km of high-speed railway lines by 2020

Lu also told the conference that the *total revenue of the rail transport sector increased 6.1 percent year-on-year in 2019 to 818 billion yuan*, and it is expected to reach 868 billion yuan by the end of 2020.


----------



## cheehg

CNGL said:


> I knew Chinese HSR plans were massive thanks to excerpts, but now that I can see the whole map it has blown my mind! However I read there were plans to build some regional lines in "the northern slopes of Tian Shan" (i.e. the Mori-Ürümqi-Kuytun corridor out in Xinjiang), and that map shows nothing yet, so maybe it's planned for after 2030.
> 
> 
> Bellows . Even better, the Spanish word for what one does with a bellows has also the far better known meaning of a f-bomb.


Tian Shan slope line is already finished if you mean from Urumqi to the north. Those are normal speed lines not on this HSR map.


----------



## General Huo

Beijing-Zhangjiakou HSR to Chongli


----------



## Short

General Huo said:


> Beijing-Zhangjiakou HSR to Chongli


Definitely an oversight to not take the storage of oversized ski equipment for the rollingstock servicing this route.

As for Badaling being the largest underground station, I believe that still is Futian Station in Guangdong. Maybe it is the deepest?


----------



## cheehg

Short said:


> Definitely an oversight to not take the storage of oversized ski equipment for the rollingstock servicing this route.
> 
> As for Badaling being the largest underground station, I believe that still is Futian Station in Guangdong. Maybe it is the deepest?


The train has the storage for ski equipment. I saw it in other video. I guess it is not opened yet.


----------



## General Huo

China bullet trains line up for world's biggest travel rush


----------



## General Huo

Aerial view of bullet train maintenance center in Shenyang, China


----------



## General Huo

First high-speed railway in China's Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region


----------



## General Huo

China's Winter Olympic high-speed railway opens


----------



## General Huo

China's mega projects 2019: Year in review


----------



## hkskyline

Robust demand for the Beijing - Shanghai line's IPO : https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-...ion-ipo-highlights-investor-confidence-worlds


----------



## gao7

*Fuxing bullet trains start to run on Panzhihua-Kunming high-speed railway*



















> A passenger takes selfies with a Fuxing bullet train at Kunming Railway Station in southwest China's Yunnan Province, Jan. 9, 2020. The CR200J Fuxing (Rejuvenation) bullet trains started to run on the high-speed railway linking Panzhihua and Kunming on Thursday. As the train goes into service, travel time between the two cities is slashed from about 5.5 hours to about two. (Ding Yiquan)


http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-01/10/c_138692390_7.htm


----------



## Silly_Walks

Short said:


> As for Badaling being the largest underground station, I believe that still is Futian Station in Guangdong. Maybe it is the deepest?


Yup, Futian's bigger. Every time a news article or video is posted, that same inaccuracy is repeated, and every time I correct them. To no avail, I'm afraid.


----------



## General Huo




----------



## General Huo




----------



## General Huo

Beijing-Zhangjiakou HSR


----------



## General Huo

Xixi River bridge, China's new engineering wonder in railway construction


----------



## Make_TT

^^Is the HSR map on Wikipedia accurate (now)?


----------



## BankingGazette

If you think wikipedia map is outdated, just send message to the author on wikipedia / commons.wikimedia.org. Don't repeat it again and again in skyscrapercity.


----------



## WuhanMilitaryOlympics19

Are there any plans to build a Beijing-Shanghai Maglev Line, just like the Japanese are building the Chuo Shinkansen between Tokyo and Nagoya(Osaka)?


----------



## Gusiluz

*China introduces new high-speed services*. IRJ today


> CHINA National Railway (CR) has increased the number of trains it operates per day by 2.7% and introduced new high-speed services with the start of its new timetable on April 10.
> The total number of trains operating per day has risen by 130.5 per direction to 4970.5 per direction across the national network.





> CR says the opening of the high-speed line linking Beijing with Zhangjiakou, Hohhot, and Datong on December 30 2019 has been successful with strong demand. CR is now operating 44 round trips per day, with seven additional services per direction at weekends and 19 extra trains during peak periods.
> CR is taking advantage of the completion of the triangular high-speed network linking Chengdu, Chongqing and Guiyang to introduce a new East Sichuan – Chongqing – Guizhou service. The train will run three times per day and will take around eight hours to complete the full circuit.
> In addition, CR has increased the number of one-stop and non-stop high-speed trains operating between Chengdu and Chongqing. The number of one-stop between the two cities has been stepped up one round trip per day to three.


It may seem like a small increase in services after the pandemic, but they do not refer to 130 more trains than last week or last month, but to the last general change in schedules in December:

IRJ dec 30, 2019


> A new national timetable was introduced in China on December 30 2019 which increases the number of passenger trains by 263.5 per day to reach 4816.5 daily round trips.


----------



## saiho

by ARLES_


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ If all the pictures are from the same place, and that's what it looks like...
There are CR400BF, CRH2A, CRH380A, CRH380D and CR400BF trains.


----------



## saiho

By 乌龟吃蘑菇91871


----------



## saiho

SS7E0133


----------



## saiho

炉桥站外勤


----------



## WuhanMilitaryOlympics19

When will they open the Beijing-Shenyang line and the Zhengzhou-Wanzhou line? 

I mean the missing parts..


----------



## Gusiluz

Well, you didn't make the question easy: the missing parts have names.

Shenyang-Chengde went into service on dec 29, 2018 and Chengde-Xinghuo (Beijing) was scheduled for 4Q2020 before the pandemic. 192 km to 350 kmh from PDL 02.
There are recent photos of the new station in the Chinese station Thread.

The second question concerns two different lines:
PDL 05 Zhengzhou-Xiangyang went into service on dec 1, 2019
PDL 12 Xiangyang-Wanzhou is planned for 2022 (429 km to 350 kmh)


----------



## General Huo

Jiangsu South Yangtze River HSR, 350km/h u/c. It is the 3rd HSR between Shanghai and Nanjing.


----------



## DarkShark

What is the latest news on the Shenzen to Jiangmen HSR with the new Pearl River tunnel? Did they already start construction?

Also I heard there is another HSR planned between Zhanjiang/Maoming and Guangzhou? What is the status on this one?


----------



## erkantang

General Huo said:


> Jiangsu South Yangtze River HSR, 350km/h u/c. It is the 3rd HSR between Shanghai and Nanjing.


From where to where is this HSR to? I couldn’t find information on google.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Yes, it's Shanghai-Jiangying-Changzhou-Nanjing 350 kmh 278.33 km



DarkShark said:


> What is the latest news on the Shenzen to Jiangmen HSR with the new Pearl River tunnel? Did they already start construction?
> 
> Also I heard there is another HSR planned between Zhanjiang/Maoming and Guangzhou? What is the status on this one?


Yes: Shenzhen North-Jiangmen (73,06 M €/km no UIC) 250 kmh scheduled for 2023 115.6 km PDL 01

Jiangmen South-Maoming East 200 kmh 01/07/2018 265 km PDL 01
Maoming-Zhanjiang (mixed traffic, CRH trains in 2018 no UIC) 200 kmh 28/12/2013 103 km.


----------



## General Huo

erkantang said:


> From where to where is this HSR to? I couldn’t find information on google.


Here is the map


----------



## foxmulder

Really cool vid that shows the huge amount of effort spent on navigating a high speed rail line through a highly populated and geographically complex country:


----------



## Gusiluz

From Wuhan to Lanzhou? Not that I know of.

Xi'an-Shiyan is under construction for 2 h 55 m between Xi'an and Wuhan, I don't know how long it will take between Lanzhou and Wuhan.
PDL 350 kmh year 2022 and just under 300 km in length.


----------



## CNGL

The huge map posted a few pages ago shows a Shiyan-Lanzhou high-speed line under planning and expected to start construction before 2030. I see they are also planning a Lu'an-Xianyang line, so there will be a direct Shanghai-Lanzhou line at 350 km/h avoiding all major cities after Hefei.


----------



## Zaz965

my cute Gusiluz, what is the longest high speed rail route?


----------



## Gusiluz

Well, you don't have to ask me directly, there can always be (sure there is) someone who knows better than me.

I recently read on a Chinese travel website what the longest train journey was, a conventional night train that took almost three days.

According to my notes:
.....
EDITED:
Updated in the following message


----------



## maginn

I believe that the London - Marseille Eurostar service is the extension of the summer-only London - Avignon train, and it is also run as a seasonal service.


----------



## General Huo

The HSR routes in Yangtse Delta Area are going to open in 2020









The new HSR routes in Yangtse Delta Area are going to start construction in 2020.


----------



## General Huo

Southern Shandong HSR Heze-Lankao section is u/c


----------



## General Huo

Liupanshui-Anshun Intercity Rail (250km/h) is under test and will open soon


----------



## General Huo

Beijing-Xiong'an intercity rail u/c


----------



## General Huo

Liupanshui-Anshun intercity testing


----------



## foxmulder

Nice pictures, tnx for sharing!


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Are the ticket numbers and locations restricted to provide distancing of passengers?


----------



## maginn

No they are not ^


----------



## General Huo

Miliangchuan Bridge of Lanzhou-Zhongwei HSR (中兰客专) u/c


----------



## General Huo

Xindun Bridge crossing G6 Beijing-Lhasa Expressway in Gansu, swirled successfully.


----------



## General Huo

Hefei-Anqing HSR (合安高铁)


----------



## General Huo

Chifeng-Kazuo HSR (赤峰至喀左高速铁路) in Liaoning and Inner Mongolia will open soon.


----------



## General Huo

Chifeng-Kazuo HSR


----------



## General Huo

Ganzhou-Shenzhen HSR u/c


----------



## General Huo

Yancheng-Nantong HSR (盐通高铁)


----------



## General Huo

Ganzhou-Shenzhen HSR





速看!赣深高铁塘厦段、深圳段迎来新进展!_施工


楼村特大桥是赣深铁路重点控制性工程，该桥全长2.874公里，跨越村庄、市区、水库等，地形条件复杂，施工难度大。赣深铁路东莞段长约30公里，途经谢岗、清溪、樟木头、塘厦、黄江5个镇，唯一站点是东莞南站（塘…




www.sohu.com


----------



## General Huo




----------



## Gusiluz

Thank you very much for the photos!


General Huo said:


> Chifeng-Kazuo HSR
> ...


I am surprised by the track configuration of Kazuo station, and it would be much better the same picture but in the opposite direction (towards Beijing).


It's on the Shenyang-Beijing line, whose Chengde-Xinghuo (Beijing) section will be opened at the end of the year, if the schedule is met.
The central tracks are for Shenyang-Beijing, from which the tracks for Kazuo-Chifeng are separated (outwards). The tracks for the platforms are separated from each other (that is why the tracks for Kazuo-Chifeng return to the centre). After the station to Beijing there are four tunnels: the outer ones to Chifeng and the inner ones to Beijing. After passing the mountain, the outer tracks are diverted to Chifeng (the track in the direction of Chifeng passes under the Shenyang-Beijing PDL.










Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com






By the way, I have noted that the *Hefei-Huzhou* section to be opened at the end of June is for 350 km/h, the same as the Shangqiu-Hefei already in service since 1 December 2019 and the Huzhou-Hangzhou planned for 2021.
In the video, although they talk about the whole line, they say that the tests are done at 350 km/h, but in the map you put up a few messages ago it says that it is for 250 km/h; I think the latter will be wrong.


----------



## erkantang

When will Zhongwei Lanzhou open and has construction started on Xining - Baotou line ?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Zhongwei-Lanzhou is planned for 2022 (250 kmh, 218 km).

Xining - Baotou? (Northwest PDL 08 / PDL 14) 


Baotou-Yinchuan and Zhongwei-Lanzhou is scheduled for 2022 and I have nothing else in mind.


----------



## General Huo

You are right. The map is wrong.



Gusiluz said:


> By the way, I have noted that the *Hefei-Huzhou* section to be opened at the end of June is for 350 km/h, the same as the Shangqiu-Hefei already in service since 1 December 2019 and the Huzhou-Hangzhou planned for 2021.
> In the video, although they talk about the whole line, they say that the tests are done at 350 km/h, but in the map you put up a few messages ago it says that it is for 250 km/h; I think the latter will be wrong.


----------



## Zaz965

high speed rail train made specially for Xi to meet some president


----------



## Zaz965

I like this photo, they cut the hill in half to make a passage for high speed rail


----------



## General Huo

^^^^
That's an entrance to tunnels. The tracks to Chifeng make the branch inside the tunnel.











The picture should be shot on the hill, top of the tunnel entrance


----------



## General Huo

Zhangjiajie-Jishou-Huaihua HSR in Hunan


----------



## tigerleapgorge

Just noticed 米易 Miyi to 攀枝花 Panzhihua section of the New Chengdu Kunming Railway will be open tomorrow.


最新




成昆复线米攀段月底开通



FYI, Kungming to Panzhihua section is already open and takes 2 hours. The northern section (Miyi to Chengdu) will be done around 2022.


----------



## erkantang

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Zhongwei-Lanzhou is planned for 2022 (250 kmh, 218 km).
> 
> Xining - Baotou? (Northwest PDL 08 / PDL 14)
> 
> 
> Baotou-Yinchuan and Zhongwei-Lanzhou is scheduled for 2022 and I have nothing else in mind.


Oh sorry I meant Yinchuan to Baotou but I assume it will start in 2022 as well along with the Zhongwei Lanzhou line


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ This does make sense.

Beijing-Lanzhou PDL is in service between Beijing and Hohhot and between Yinchuan and Zhongwei. 
Hohhot-Baotou has had CRH trains since January 8, 2015 but I believe there is no new line or that, in any case, it is a line for mixed traffic at 200 km/h (it's not on my list). 
The maximum speed to Zhangjiakou (Kalgan) is 350 kmh, and the rest of the line to Lanzhou is 250 kmh.

Baotou-Yinchuan and Zhongwei-Lanzhou are scheduled for 2022.


----------



## lawdefender

*Official Data from Transport Ministry :*

By the end of 2019,

*the national railway operating mileage was 139,000 kilometers*, an increase of 6.1% over the previous year.

Among them, *the operating mileage of high-speed railway reached 35,000 kilometers.*

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is estimated that by the end of 2020,

*the total mileage of national railway operations will reach 146,000 kilometers, *covering approximately 99% of cities with a population of 200,000 and above.

Among them, *the high-speed railway (including intercity railway) is about 39,000 kilometers*







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auto.people.com.cn


----------



## General Huo

Nantong-Shanghai new HSR (通沪铁路)


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## erkantang

What’s that under construction line (the pillars ) for ? Looks amazing


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## General Huo

These pillars are for Nantong-Suzhou-Jiaxing-Ningbo HSR. The Hutong Yangtse River Bridge is a double deck bridge. The upper deck is for an 6-lane expressway (S19). The lower deck is for 4-track HSR. 2 of them for Nantong-Shanghai HSR, 2 of them for Nantong-Suzhou-Jiaxing-Ningbo HSR (通苏嘉甬铁路)











erkantang said:


> What’s that under construction line (the pillars ) for ? Looks amazing


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## General Huo

Shangqiu-Hefei-Hangzhou south section from Hefei to Huzhou are going to open soon.


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## General Huo




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## General Huo

Chifeng-Kazuo HSR


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## General Huo




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## General Huo

Shanghai-Nantong HSR


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## General Huo

Huzhou-Hangzhou HSR (湖杭铁路, 350 km/h) sets to open by 2022


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## General Huo

Shanghai-Nantong HSR


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## saiho

坐普速去影高铁


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## Gusiluz

Misunderstanding


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## maginn

^^ I think he’s talking about the line from Xinghuo station in Beijing to Hebei’s Chengde. 
The section from Chengde to Shenyang has opened already.


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## Gusiluz

^^ Ah, yes.
Thank you!

By the end of this year, although it was scheduled for 2012 and was up to Beijing East Station
They say it's all because of the NIMBY


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## EightFive

nimby, in china?


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## saiho

NIMBYs are everywhere in China.


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## M-NL

Those NIMBYs must be somewhere in the government, because I don't see an average Joe delaying plans that long in China. The delay was probably caused by something like a (failed?) lobby to get a local station on the HSL.


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## luhai

Nah, those thing are really common. I have an uncle that did similar thing for a major ring road in my home town, and he is just a regular shop owner with little connection. (Wants better deal for compensation) The key is the actually purchase the property in question rather than just renting it. This is especially true for older housing where rent from SOE work unit where where rent was very cheap via work point discounts. 

My grandma for example, did not purchase the house she was during 90s reforms (price was only ~10k RMB) and the property was ultimately taken back. Since the rent was only 50 RMB due to my grandpa's 4 decades of work points, she used to boast about how smart she was not taken the deal and sublease the rooms for 800 RMB apiece for nearly 1500 RMB of pure profit. However, once the company (former work unit) decide to develop the area, the house is gone and she didn't get any compensation and have little grounding to fight it despite living in there for decades.


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## saiho

HXD3C0745


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## gao7

*Technical studies for Ningbo – Zhoushan high-speed line completed*
TECHNICAL studies for the 77km Ningbo – Zhoushan high-speed line, which will include the longest undersea rail tunnel in China, have been completed following two years of development.
The core technical proposal for the 16.2km tunnel passed an assessment by a panel of experts headed by Mr Qian Qihu, an academic from the Chinese Academy of Engineering.

The line will run through the tunnel and several bridges via Jintang Island, with separate bores providing road and rail connections. With a maximum depth of 78m and a diameter of 14m, the tunnel will require a 10.87km shield.

Trains on the line will operate at speeds of 250km/h, reducing Ningbo – Zhoushan travel times from 1h 30min by road to 30 minutes by rail. Hangzhou – Zhoushan travel times will be reduced to 1h 20min.

Construction is expected to start later this year, with the project due to take six to seven years to complete.

https://www.railjournal.com


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## Bhurki18

*China has 36,000 km of high-speed railways by July*





__





China has 36,000 km of high-speed railways by July- China.org.cn






www.china.org.cn





China's railway network had a total length of 141,400 km by the end of July, among which 36,000 km were high-speed railways, the national railway operator said Saturday.

The country invested 67.1 billion yuan (about 9.67 billion U.S. dollars) in rail fixed asset in July, up 3.6 percent year on year, according to a statement on the website of the China Railway Corporation.

Investment on big and medium-sized rail projects hit 49.9 billion yuan last month, representing a year-on-year growth of 11.3 percent.

During the first seven months, 1,310 km of new railway lines had been put into service, including 733 km of high-speed railway, the statement said.


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## hkskyline

* China Doesn't Need 125,000 Miles of Track *
Bloomberg _Excerpt_
August 18, 2020

The building of China’s high-speed rail network counts as one of the greatest transportation success stories so far this century. That doesn’t mean the country can repeat the trick.

When plans for a nationwide network of trains traveling at up to 350 kilometers per hour (220 miles per hour) were first hatched in 2004, it was thought such projects could only be viable in rich countries. Beijing’s economic planners proved those naysayers wrong. Now, two-thirds of the world’s high-speed rail is in China and passengers take 3.7 billion rides every year, more than half of that number on high-speed trains.

Those achievements look modest next to what’s planned for the coming decades. China State Railway Group Co. this week put out the sequel to the 2004 plan, promising a network 200,000 kilometers (125,000 miles) long by 2035, up from 141,000 kilometers now. High-speed tracks will comprise 70,000 kilometers of the total — roughly double their current length. 

For all the nation-building pride that can attach to such ambitions, it's a bad idea.

China’s high-speed rail network is already bigger than it ought to be. The entire route from Beijing in the north to Guangzhou in the south is barely more than 2,000 kilometers. A 70,000-kilometer network would have to extend deep into the backwoods, to cities like Kashgar in Xinjiang and Shigatse in Tibet. Already, too much spending has gone on serving areas where the population is too small and low-income to make high-speed rail viable. Further extending train lines to yet smaller cities will make that problem worse. 

More : China Doesn't Need 125,000 Miles of Track


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## tipa34

Indeed, they doesn't need to desserve small cities with people which can't afford a train ticket. In my opinion, it would be better to concentrate the efforts in metropolitan networks + finish the high speed corridor to Russia, at least to the kazakh border.


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## otternase

hkskyline said:


> * China Doesn't Need 125,000 Miles of Track *
> Bloomberg _Excerpt_
> August 18, 2020
> ...
> 
> For all the nation-building pride that can attach to such ambitions, it's a bad idea.
> 
> China’s high-speed rail network is already bigger than it ought to be. The entire route from Beijing in the north to Guangzhou in the south is barely more than 2,000 kilometers. A 70,000-kilometer network would have to extend deep into the backwoods, to cities like Kashgar in Xinjiang and Shigatse in Tibet. Already, too much spending has gone on serving areas where the population is too small and low-income to make high-speed rail viable. Further extending train lines to yet smaller cities will make that problem worse.
> 
> More : China Doesn't Need 125,000 Miles of Track


I would disagree:
while the total length of network in China is indeed impressive and seems to be just too much, in fact the more relevant indicators are in my understanding the density of high speed network in track length per area or in track length per number of inhabitants.
And in both of these indicators China has still a long way to go before reaching a value barely close to that of classic high speed countries.

Examples:
Germany: 1571km (new) and 2070km (upgraded) high speed track, that is 10,2m/km^2 or 45km per 1 mio. inhabitants
France: 2734km, this is 4,25m/km^2 / 40,8km/1mio inhabitants
Spain: 2852km, 5,64m/km^2 / 60km/1mio inhabitants

China: 35.000km, 3,64m/km^2 / 25km/1mio inhabitants

Thus by doubling the network length China would just about reach the level already present in Europe.

And when considering the conventional rail as well, numbers are not much different: for example Germany has (already after extensive dismantling of lines in the 80s (west) and 90s (east)) still a network of 38,000km rail in total, which is 106m/km^2 or 475km/1mio inhabitants, China has by now 141,000km network, so just 14,7m/km^2 or 101km/1mio inhabitants.
Doubling the network length would not even come anywhere close to the standard density of rail in Europe...

One might argue that comparing track length per square area is not valid, because the population of China is not equally distributed over the country, with large areas having just a very small numbers of inhabitants.
But even when totally ignoring the sparsely populated provinces Xinjiang, Neimeng, Tibet, Qinghai und Gansu (with combined 77mio inhabitants), the remaining part of China is more than 4mio km^2 or roughly half of the total area of China with just over 1.3 billion inhabitants.


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## JaJaWa

30-min rail link operates to link Gongbei with Hengqin in Zhuhai
Newsgd.com GDToday

On August 18th, the Zhuhai Airport Urban Rail Transit Phase I from Intercity MRT Zhuhai Station in Gongbei to Hengqin Chimelong Station officially opens, and it takes about 30 minutes one way with a designed speed of 100 km/h. In the initial period, there will be 21 trains every day to provide travel services for both Zhuhai and Macao residents.

The 39.48-km Zhuhai Airport Urban Rail Transit is an extension of the Guangzhou-Zhuhai Intercity MRT which is important for the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao transport network.

The length of the Zhuhai Airport Urban Rail Transit Phase I is 16.86 km, with the stops including Zhuhai, Wanzai North, Wanzai (not open yet), Shizimen, Hengqin North, and Hengqin stations. Except for Zhuhai Station, the others are built underground.

As for Hengqin Station, which is the largest in Phase I, covering an area of 60,000 square meters, with a total of 12 entry and exits, plus 10 evacuation entrances.

Exit 4 and Exit 5 are opposite to the new Hengqin Port, which was opened on August 18th, and passengers can reach the port only by walking a few steps from the exits.
What's more, the station sets up the ports for connection with the light rail system of Macao. In the future, Zhuhai and Macao will realize the connection of high-speed rail, intercity rail and light rail at Zhuhai Station as well as Hengqin Station.

Urban rail electronic tickets are now on sale (11 yuan, one way) starting from 9:30 pm, August 17th, which brings convenience for passengers that have no need to exchange for additional paper tickets when arriving at the station.

Regarding the Zhuhai Airport Urban Rail Transit Phase II, running 23 km from Hengqin Chimelong Station to Zhuhai (Jinwan) Airport, it is estimated to be completed by 2023.

According to China Daily, it will take only 30 minutes travel from Gongbei to the airport at that time. The line will link up the intercity mass rail transit systems of Zhuhai, Guangzhou, and Foshan to form a comprehensive transportation network in the Pearl River Delta, which will also reach Macao.

Source: 30-min rail link operates to link Gongbei with Hengqin in Zhuhai


----------



## saiho

hkskyline said:


> * China Doesn't Need 125,000 Miles of Track *
> Bloomberg _Excerpt_
> August 18, 2020
> 
> The building of China’s high-speed rail network counts as one of the greatest transportation success stories so far this century. That doesn’t mean the country can repeat the trick.
> 
> When plans for a nationwide network of trains traveling at up to 350 kilometers per hour (220 miles per hour) were first hatched in 2004, it was thought such projects could only be viable in rich countries. Beijing’s economic planners proved those naysayers wrong. Now, two-thirds of the world’s high-speed rail is in China and passengers take 3.7 billion rides every year, more than half of that number on high-speed trains.
> 
> Those achievements look modest next to what’s planned for the coming decades. China State Railway Group Co. this week put out the sequel to the 2004 plan, promising a network 200,000 kilometers (125,000 miles) long by 2035, up from 141,000 kilometers now. High-speed tracks will comprise 70,000 kilometers of the total — roughly double their current length.
> 
> For all the nation-building pride that can attach to such ambitions, it's a bad idea.
> 
> China’s high-speed rail network is already bigger than it ought to be. The entire route from Beijing in the north to Guangzhou in the south is barely more than 2,000 kilometers. A 70,000-kilometer network would have to extend deep into the backwoods, to cities like Kashgar in Xinjiang and Shigatse in Tibet. Already, too much spending has gone on serving areas where the population is too small and low-income to make high-speed rail viable. Further extending train lines to yet smaller cities will make that problem worse.
> 
> More : China Doesn't Need 125,000 Miles of Track


I sort of agree on HSR I don't think China needs 70,000 km of high speed rail. However, I disagree with the article's premise and do think the China does need +200,000km of rail in general. They should focus on 140-200km/h regional and freight lines feeding the HSR network and maybe a ~10,000km maglev system between Jing-Jin-Ji, Yangtze and Pearl Deltas.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

saiho said:


> I sort of agree on HSR I don't think China needs 70,000 km of high speed rail. However, I disagree with the article's premise and do think the China does need +200,000km of rail in general. They should focus on 140-200km/h regional and freight lines feeding the HSR network and maybe a ~10,000km maglev system between Jing-Jin-Ji, Yangtze and Pearl Deltas.


The real problem is that what China does not currently have is 140-200 km/h regional lines classified as conventional rather than high speed rail.

How much of the current 36 000 km "high speed rail" is 200 km/h and how much is faster?
Of the current 105 000 km non-high-speed rail, how much is freight-only? Of the rest, how much is under 100 km/h?

How many stations does China have?


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## saiho

chornedsnorkack said:


> The real problem is that what China does not currently have is 140-200 km/h regional lines classified as conventional rather than high speed rail.


They do have that, many ICRs such as Changzhutan ICR and Pearl River Delta ICRs would be fall as 140-200 km/h regional lines.



chornedsnorkack said:


> Of the rest, how much is under 100 km/h?
> 
> How many stations does China have?


~100 km/h lines are handled by metro systems.


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## chornedsnorkack

saiho said:


> They do have that, many ICRs such as Changzhutan ICR and Pearl River Delta ICRs would be fall as 140-200 km/h regional lines.


So are they counted in or out of the 36 000 km "high speed rail"?


saiho said:


> ~100 km/h lines are handled by metro systems.


Are "metro systems" counted into the 141 000 km total, or outside?
What is the speed of the really rural and remote branch lines like Kashgar-Hotan or Lhasa-Shigatse?


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## saiho

chornedsnorkack said:


> So are they counted in or out of the 36 000 km "high speed rail"?


No idea, if someone has a breakdown of HSR Lines in China we would know but IFAIK some Pearl River Delta ICRs are not classed as high speed rail 



chornedsnorkack said:


> Are "metro systems" counted into the 141 000 km total, or outside?


Metro systems are not counted.


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## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> The real problem is that what China does not currently have is 140-200 km/h regional lines classified as conventional rather than high speed rail.
> 
> How much of the current 36 000 km "high speed rail" is 200 km/h and how much is faster?
> Of the current 105 000 km non-high-speed rail, how much is freight-only? Of the rest, how much is under 100 km/h?
> 
> How many stations does China have?


If you are building new, you might as well build it to 250km/h standards and call it 'high-speed rail'.

A lot of lines China are building today are what would have been built in Europe 100 years ago as conventional rail. On the one hand China 'cheats' by not going into cities and towns, on the other hand on more rural lines these days you just blast through mountains instead of meandering around the contours like the Europeans did back then.


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## Gusiluz

How?
This is a mixed traffic line at 200 km/h that I do not include in my list:









This is an HSR for 250 km/h:









Very few make new lines (of course: not high speed) to enter the cities, if there is no new station it links to the current one outside the city

I only include lines only for passenger traffic for 250 km/h or, rarely, 200 km/h prepared for 250 or within the 8+8 corridors:








Hefei-Hangzhou 350 28/06/2020 417 04 R
Kazuo-Chifeng (Ulanhad) (no UIC) 250 01/07/2020 156 2→N
Liupanshui-Anshun (SO de Guiyang) 250 08/07/2020 124 Paralela 08


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## indianrailfan

chornedsnorkack said:


> How much of the current 36 000 km "high speed rail" is 200 km/h and how much is faster?


From a 2017 WB study - ~10,000 km 300-350 kph, ~12,000 km 250 kph, ~3,000 km 200 kph. 

http://documents1.worldbank.org/cur...16/pdf/Chinas-High-Speed-Rail-Development.pdf - Page 12 and 24.

Since then the network has added another 11,000 km. Don't have the latest figures right now.



NCT said:


> If you are building new, you might as well build it to 250km/h standards and call it 'high-speed rail'.
> 
> A lot of lines China are building today are what would have been built in Europe 100 years ago as conventional rail. On the one hand China 'cheats' by not going into cities and towns, on the other hand on more rural lines these days you just blast through mountains instead of meandering around the contours like the Europeans did back then.


Err...250 km/h _is _HSR. Isn't it?


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## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> If you are building new, you might as well build it to 250km/h standards and call it 'high-speed rail'.
> 
> A lot of lines China are building today are what would have been built in Europe 100 years ago as conventional rail. On the one hand China 'cheats' by not going into cities and towns, on the other hand on more rural lines these days you just blast through mountains instead of meandering around the contours like the Europeans did back then.


Those 250 km/h standards rather thn 160 km/h or 100 km/h standards cost.
Cost in terms of construction cost. But also cost in terms of difficulties meandering into cities - and towns and villages.


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## Bhurki18

chornedsnorkack said:


> The real problem is that what China does not currently have is 140-200 km/h regional lines classified as conventional rather than high speed rail.
> 
> How much of the current 36 000 km "high speed rail" is 200 km/h and how much is faster?
> Of the current 105 000 km non-high-speed rail, how much is freight-only? Of the rest, how much is under 100 km/h?
> 
> How many stations does China have?


All of 'high speed rail' is over 200 km/h.

Afaik, there are 2 kinds of classifications, 250/200km/h and 350 km/h.
Out of 36,000 km, some 22,000 km is 250 km/h while rest 14,000 km is 350km/h.

@Gusiluz may have more accurate data.

Edit- Didn't see the latest posts, there might be repetition.


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## chornedsnorkack

Bhurki18 said:


> All of 'high speed rail' is over 200 km/h.
> 
> Afaik, there are 2 kinds of classifications, 250/200km/h and 350 km/h.
> Out of 36,000 km, some 22,000 km is 250 km/h while rest 14,000 km is 350km/h.
> 
> @Gusiluz may have more accurate data.
> 
> Edit- Didn't see the latest posts, there might be repetition.


I see. I wondered whether any lines with top speed of just 200 km/h rather than 250 or e. g 220 count into the 22 000 km or 200/250 km/h or into the 105 000 km of up to 200 km/h.


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## Bhurki18

chornedsnorkack said:


> I wondered whether any lines with top speed of just 200 km/h rather than 250 or e. g 220 count into the 22 000 km


Yes they do, because 250km/h is the design limit. Trains oftrn run at 220/200 kmph for myriad of reasons, route timings, efficiency etc.




chornedsnorkack said:


> into the 105 000 km of up to 200 km/h.


105k? What do you mean?


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## chornedsnorkack

Bhurki18 said:


> 105k? What do you mean?


The present totals are given as 141 000 km "railways", 36 000 km HSR. That would make 105 000 km slow speed railways.


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## WuhanMilitaryOlympics19

When the Beijing Shenyang line will be put in service in 2020?


----------



## hkskyline

* China planning high-speed rail freight network to help e-commerce sector*
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_ 
August 23, 2020

China’s state-owned railway operator is planning to accelerate the development of a high-speed freight network in the hope of bolstering the e-commerce network.

A development plan published in mid-August also includes plans to further expand the passenger network and build an advanced control system that will integrate home-grown technologies such as 5G telecommunications, the Beidou satellite navigation system and artificial intelligence.

China has ambitions to become a world leader in rail transport and earlier this month the Ministry of Transport indicated that it would redouble its efforts to develop a network of maglev trains, which can reach speeds of up to 600km an hour (370mph).

More : China planning high-speed rail freight network


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## damndynamite

*



China Doesn't Need 125,000 Miles of Track

Click to expand...

*


> Bloomberg _Excerpt_
> August 18, 2020


I don't know if 70,000 km is too much high speed rail for China. However, the announcement mentions every city with more than 500,000 people will get a high speed rail station. This implies a high speed rail line from Urumqi to Kasghar (urban area of about 700,000) will be constructed. What an absolutely terrible idea. The Lanzhou to Urumqi line was built at a cost of 140 billion RMB. It opened in December 2014 and is not even covering electricity costs because there are so few passengers on only a few pair of trains running the entire ~1,8000 km route daily. The Kashgar line will do no better. Well over 100 billion RMB will be wasted to build it. Many much more useful projects will not be funded because of the diversion by Kasghar.

A project of comparable waste is the mostly conventional speed Sichuan to Tibet line under construction.









Sichuan Tibet Railway


This project is so colossal that it is worth its own thread. The railway is over 1,600km from Chengdu to Lhasa. The section to the east from Lhasa to Nyingchi is under construction. The section going west from Chengdu to Kangding is also under construction. (A small segment from Chengdu to Ya'an...




www.skyscrapercity.com





I believe only the opposite ends are currently under construction. If the extremely difficult middle section hasn't yet commenced construction, maybe the planners realize it's a really wasteful project and have delayed it. So there is hope that the Kashgar line can be stopped too after people come to their senses.


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## Gusiluz

^^ Don't just look at the extremes (you seem to like it)

At a glance, you can see 26 trains in each direction for tomorrow between Lanzhou and Zhangye:
:


Train Search: No Record



Your "data" on income and cost of electricity can be saved for you.


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## damndynamite

It makes sense to look at extremes because less extreme issues are difficult to assess without extensive knowledge and data. I don't know if 70,000 km by 2035 is too much high speed rail. That's a highly technical question so I will refrain from certain opinions. However, I do know the Lanzhou to Urumqi and Sichuan to Tibet lines are very bad, wasteful project because the projects are at the extreme end. So there is clarity in discussions about extremes.

As I said "only a few pair of trains running the *entire* ~1,8000 km route daily". But you bring up a good point. Some segments of the line are redeemable. At most two segments should have been built. A line from Urumqi to Hami (Yizhou) because there is at least some passenger traffic and for symbolism (HSR in Xinjiang) and a line from Zhangye to Lanzhou because it looks like there is a good deal of tourism traffic. That would mean half of the line should have never been built and is a huge waste. 

Lastly, why are you dismissive about looking at extremes? Is it because the amounts of money involved are perceived to not matter? 140 billion for the Urumqi-Lanzhou line, at least 100 billion for the Kashgar-Urumqi line and 250 billion for the Sichuan-Tibet line. For a middle income country like China with many other pressing projects does waste on this scale matter? Of course it does.


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## damndynamite

Gusiluz said:


> At a glance, you can see 26 trains in each direction for tomorrow between Lanzhou and Zhangye:


It is more useful to see data for high speed trains only. According to the website you provided there are 10 high speed trains (D trains) running from Lanzhou to Zhangye on Saturday.

Edit:

Also for reference there are only 2 high speed trains running from Lanzhou to Urumqi on Saturday.


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## chornedsnorkack

damndynamite said:


> I don't know if 70,000 km is too much high speed rail for China. However, the announcement mentions every city with more than 500,000 people will get a high speed rail station. This implies a high speed rail line from Urumqi to Kasghar (urban area of about 700,000) will be constructed. What an absolutely terrible idea. The Lanzhou to Urumqi line was built at a cost of 140 billion RMB. It opened in December 2014 and is not even covering electricity costs because there are so few passengers on only a few pair of trains running the entire ~1,8000 km route daily. The Kashgar line will do no better. Well over 100 billion RMB will be wasted to build it.


High speed rail to Kashgar is needed.
Does not mean that an actual new high speed line is needed.
Look at the existing conventional Turpan-Kashgar railways (plural!)
By my count, the distance is:
143 km Urumqi-Turpan;
334 km second Turpan-Korla railway 
988 km Korla-Kashgar
total 1465 km Urumqi-Kashgar
I see exactly 1 daily train on the route.
A number only train. 7556.
Which takes 24:44 for the trip.
Average speed comes as 59 km/h.
The top speed is quoted as 160 km/h. Which is plausible. Most of the line is in flat desert, and the mountain section between Turpan and Korla has, on the new line, big tunnels keeping summits and gradients low.

What Kashgar needs is not necessarily a brand new 1400 km line at 200 km/h, but perhaps an upgrade of existing line so that there would be Z trains that actually achieve 120 km/h average speed for 12 hour trip time.


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## damndynamite

chornedsnorkack said:


> What Kashgar needs is not necessarily a brand new 1400 km line at 200 km/h, but perhaps an upgrade of existing line so that there would be Z trains that actually achieve 120 km/h average speed for 12 hour trip time.


This is the ideal outcome of a discussion. Thinking of alternatives. It looks like the existing line should be upgraded and a new line definitely should not be built. In fact there are several upgraded conventional rail lines in Xinjiang that carry high speed rail trains (CRH) running onward from the Urumqi line (Korla is one of the destinations for CRH services).

But it looks like planners are considering building a new line. HSR network means trains running on newly built track at a design speed of 200km/h or faster. High speed trains that run on upgraded track are not considered part of the HSR network.


----------



## hkskyline

damndynamite said:


> It makes sense to look at extremes because less extreme issues are difficult to assess without extensive knowledge and data. I don't know if 70,000 km by 2035 is too much high speed rail. That's a highly technical question so I will refrain from certain opinions. However, I do know the Lanzhou to Urumqi and Sichuan to Tibet lines are very bad, wasteful project because the projects are at the extreme end. So there is clarity in discussions about extremes.
> 
> As I said "only a few pair of trains running the *entire* ~1,8000 km route daily". But you bring up a good point. Some segments of the line are redeemable. At most two segments should have been built. A line from Urumqi to Hami (Yizhou) because there is at least some passenger traffic and for symbolism (HSR in Xinjiang) and a line from Zhangye to Lanzhou because it looks like there is a good deal of tourism traffic. That would mean half of the line should have never been built and is a huge waste.
> 
> Lastly, why are you dismissive about looking at extremes? Is it because the amounts of money involved are perceived to not matter? 140 billion for the Urumqi-Lanzhou line, at least 100 billion for the Kashgar-Urumqi line and 250 billion for the Sichuan-Tibet line. For a middle income country like China with many other pressing projects does waste on this scale matter? Of course it does.


I have actually ridden on parts of the Lanzhou-Urumqi line back in 2017. Distances are vast so travel times are long. This part of the country is quite empty and desolate although there are many tourist attractions scattered around this vast section. Tourist sights were very crowded although my train was nowhere near full. While I won't be surprised at all this is a huge loss-making venture right now, I think the tourism industry in this quadrant of China has enormous potential, so they'll need time to build patronage. Driving takes much longer so the train is absolutely necessary to efficiently visit the various sights en route. They're only running the slower D trains right now which makes sense given the patronage and low frequencies.


----------



## damndynamite

hkskyline said:


> While I won't be surprised at all this is a huge loss-making venture right now, I think the tourism industry in this quadrant of China has enormous potential, so they'll need time to build patronage.


The "just give it 10 years" answer means building the line was a terribly inefficient use of capital. If it takes time to build patronage and for the tourism market to develop then it should have been built later, opening in 2034 rather than 2014. Imagine if the same capital for railway construction was used in 2009-14 to build factories. The country would be wealthier because of better use of resources. A high level of inefficient capital allocation contributes to the premature death of the Chinese economic miracle. Planners should respect the country's limited resources and not repeat such mistakes. 



> Driving takes much longer so the train is absolutely necessary to efficiently visit the various sights en route.


I'm not sure which is more practical for boosting large scale tourism in the area. (Option A) Riding the high speed rail line to several stops along the way and finding transportation at each station. (Option B) Getting on a long distance tour bus from Urumqi that makes stops along the way in Eastern Xinjiang. My feeling is that tourism operators will now and in the future favor Option B. In any case HSR is not "absolutely necessary" to efficiently visit the sites. There are decent alternatives like driving. In policy discussions I would try to use more measured language. The goal is to have a clear understanding of the situation and find the best approach. The mentality should not resemble defending a sports team.


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## Bhurki18

damndynamite said:


> If it takes time to build patronage and for the tourism market to develop then it should have been built later, opening in 2034 rather than 2014.


Constantly increasing wages and cost of construction would've ensured this line to cost atleast 4 times to construct in 2034 than 2014.
The loss this line would make was percieved early on, however, the construction was justified on basis of using Economies-of-Scale while HSR construction was in high gear, in a way, that the effective loss to the network over a longer time period could be negated. 
Also, there was a political impetus to connect urumqi to the rest of the country by the same esteemed connectivity system.


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## otternase

Bhurki18 said:


> political impetus to connect


indeed, and I think you cannot overestimate the importance of this!

While on the short term investments in the industry in the already well developed eastern / coastal regions might have paid off much better, implying a better value-for-money ratio, the investment in infrastructure in the rather underdeveloped regions such as Lanzhou-Urumqi or even to Kashgar might in the long-term be the better decision as it opens the potential for even much more future chances of development. And it is one of many factors binding the western regions closer to the east heartland.
Political decisions in China are often based on very long-term development plans, far exceeding the regular political periods common in democratic systems, where most decisions need to show at least a glimpse of effect within the election period.


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## hkskyline

damndynamite said:


> I'm not sure which is more practical for boosting large scale tourism in the area. (Option A) Riding the high speed rail line to several stops along the way and finding transportation at each station. (Option B) Getting on a long distance tour bus from Urumqi that makes stops along the way in Eastern Xinjiang. My feeling is that tourism operators will now and in the future favor Option B. In any case HSR is not "absolutely necessary" to efficiently visit the sites. There are decent alternatives like driving. In policy discussions I would try to use more measured language. The goal is to have a clear understanding of the situation and find the best approach. The mentality should not resemble defending a sports team.


My tour company used a mix of HSR and local coaches to visit the sites.

To give a sense of how vast the distances are, my trip's easternmost point was Zhangye and Urumqi was the westernmost. Heading from east to west :

from Zhangye to Jiayuguan is 200+km (1.5 hour D train)
from Jiayuguan west to Dunhuang is another 370km (2.5 hour D train)
from Dunhuang to Turpan was the longest stretch at almost 900km (3.5 hour D train)
finally, from Turpan to Urumqi is another 200km (<1 hour D train)
That long section from Dunhuang to Turpan is probably a scenic drive but the train offers substantial time savings. Despite the 900km distance, a 2nd class seat is only a modest USD $30. The introduction of HSR has made the region much more accessible to tourists from Zhangye all the way to Urumqi (1600+km total).


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## gao7

*Hefei-Anqing high-speed railway under construction*

















> Railway builders work at a construction site of the Hefei-Anqing high-speed railway in east China's Anhui Province in the early morning hours on Aug. 25, 2020. The high-speed railway links the cities of Hefei and Anqing with a designed speed of 350 kilometers per hour. Acceptance testing of the project will start in September. (Xinhua/Liu Junxi)


Hefei-Anqing high-speed railway under construction - Xinhua | English.news.cn


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> The introduction of HSR has made the region much more accessible to tourists from Zhangye all the way to Urumqi (1600+km total).


And locals?

I note that something sorely lacking here is overnight HSR. No train goes from Urumqi beyond Lanzhou.


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## maginn

chornedsnorkack said:


> And locals?
> 
> I note that something sorely lacking here is overnight HSR. No train goes from Urumqi beyond Lanzhou.


The local Chinese people usually travel within a province more often than across provincial lines. 
There isn’t much population flow between Xinjiang and Gansu, other than tourists following the old Silk Road.


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## chornedsnorkack

maginn said:


> The local Chinese people usually travel within a province more often than across provincial lines.
> There isn’t much population flow between Xinjiang and Gansu, other than tourists following the old Silk Road.


Which is why the services existing on the "Urumqi-Lanzhou line" are limited usefulness.
There is NO high speed train Xining-Beijing, even.


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## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> And locals?
> 
> I note that something sorely lacking here is overnight HSR. No train goes from Urumqi beyond Lanzhou.


There actually isn't much of a local population here beyond Urimqo and Turpan. It's a fairly empty corner of the country. Even Dunhuang, the major tourist destination in Gansu, has under 200,000 people. 

Given how far Urumqi is from the rest of the country, I'd imagine flying is the only sensible option to the east coast cities. Even Xian is a bit far to do by train.


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> There actually isn't much of a local population here beyond Urimqo and Turpan. It's a fairly empty corner of the country. Even Dunhuang, the major tourist destination in Gansu, has under 200,000 people.
> 
> Given how far Urumqi is from the rest of the country, I'd imagine flying is the only sensible option to the east coast cities. Even Xian is a bit far to do by train.


There are 8 daily slow trains Urumqi-Lanzhou. Just 1 of which terminates at Lanzhou (T296). Most of the others go to coast: K596 to Hangzhou, T308 to Fuzhou, Z42 and Z306 to Shanghai, Z136 to Guangzhou. Trip time Urumqi-Lanzhou is as little as 16:38 for Z42.
After reaching Lanzhou in 16:38, Z42 then takes 23:50 to reach Shanghai (including 17 minutes in Lanzhou).
D2706 takes 12:06 for Urumqi-Lanzhou. And Lanzhou-Shanghai can actually be done in 10:48 (G1972).
Whic is why I suggest Urumqi-Lanzhou needs overnight trains. So they´d cross the empty desert between Turpan and Xining at night and passengers would get off either at termini (Shanghai, Shenzhen) next evening or intermediate stations (Xian, Zhengzhou, Hefei, Wuhan, Changsha...) over the next day.


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## Transhumanista

damndynamite said:


> I don't know if 70,000 km is too much high speed rail for China. However, the announcement mentions every city with more than 500,000 people will get a high speed rail station. This implies a high speed rail line from Urumqi to Kasghar (urban area of about 700,000) will be constructed. What an absolutely terrible idea. The Lanzhou to Urumqi line was built at a cost of 140 billion RMB. It opened in December 2014 and is not even covering electricity costs because there are so few passengers on only a few pair of trains running the entire ~1,8000 km route daily. The Kashgar line will do no better. Well over 100 billion RMB will be wasted to build it. Many much more useful projects will not be funded because of the diversion by Kasghar.
> 
> A project of comparable waste is the mostly conventional speed Sichuan to Tibet line under construction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sichuan Tibet Railway
> 
> 
> This project is so colossal that it is worth its own thread. The railway is over 1,600km from Chengdu to Lhasa. The section to the east from Lhasa to Nyingchi is under construction. The section going west from Chengdu to Kangding is also under construction. (A small segment from Chengdu to Ya'an...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.skyscrapercity.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe only the opposite ends are currently under construction. If the extremely difficult middle section hasn't yet commenced construction, maybe the planners realize it's a really wasteful project and have delayed it. So there is hope that the Kashgar line can be stopped too after people come to their senses.


These lines, Kashgar - Urumqi, and Chengdu - Lhasa are strategically important and are going to be built sooner than you can expect, especially Chengdu - Lhasa. Having a railway connection is one of the most important thing while you need to supply the army at the border or in the case of the conflict. Chengdu is the headquarter of the entire Western Theater Command


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## chornedsnorkack

Transhumanista said:


> These lines, Kashgar - Urumqi, and Chengdu - Lhasa are strategically important and are going to be built sooner than you can expect,


As a segregated HSR?
The existing Urumqi-Kashgar railway is double-track electrified Urumqi to Korla (600 km), then unelectrified double track Korla-Aksu (526 km) then unelectrified single track Aksu-Kashgar (472 km). Are there any plans to electrify or/and double track additional sections of Korla-Kashgar railway? Or Kashgar-Hotan (485 km)?

How is the progress of connecting Hotan with Ruoqiang and Golmud?


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## damndynamite

Transhumanista said:


> Having a railway connection is one of the most important thing while you need to supply the army at the border


The border situation has changed permanently with India launching an attack on Saturday night. That still doesn't make a 2nd railway "strategic". That's a word that should be analyzed thoroughly before being used. Can you answer specific questions about supplying war? How large is the army at war in Tibet? I think it's a limited battleground and logistics might not be overstretched. Why is the network of roads and existing railway not adequate in terms of volume and redundancy? 

And to flip the script, let's consider what is strategic. The word doesn't exclusively mean lines of communication, it can also mean hearts and minds. It is not widely reported but the unit used in the Saturday assault by India is the Special Frontier Force, which is actually a Tibetan unit under India's spy agency. The Indian war plan would be to send Tibetan infiltrators into TAR to sabotage and wage insurgency. SFF would sustain themselves by living off the local population. Do you think building the railway is going to directly help inspire loyalty of the people? Or rather will spending a fraction of the money for railway construction on boosting the income of farmers bring people closer to the country and join in the fight against an Indian sponsored insurgency?

Read more about India's war plans from one of its defense analysts and think about the concept of "strategic". 



> As the SFF’s role evolved, it was decided they would be infiltrated in wartime into Tibet, or para-dropped deep inside that territory. There, they would operate in small groups, disrupting and sabotaging People’s Liberation Army (PLA) columns. They would live off the land, dependent for food, shelter and security on a restive Tibetan populace that remains intensely hostile to the Chinese.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Broadsword by Ajai Shukla - Strategy. Economics. Defence.
> 
> 
> YOUR DESCRIPTION HERE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ajaishukla.blogspot.com


And finally what about the HSR line to Kashgar? What makes an entirely new line strategic as opposed to just upgrading the existing really slow conventional line?


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## chornedsnorkack

chornedsnorkack said:


> As a segregated HSR?
> The existing Urumqi-Kashgar railway is double-track electrified Urumqi to Korla (600 km), then unelectrified double track Korla-Aksu (526 km) then unelectrified single track Aksu-Kashgar (472 km). Are there any plans to electrify or/and double track additional sections of Korla-Kashgar railway? Or Kashgar-Hotan (485 km)?
> 
> How is the progress of connecting Hotan with Ruoqiang and Golmud?


Found the last.
Golmud-Ruoqiang-Korla had some section from Golmud open in June. The rest is to open sometime this year (when?)
Ruoqiang-Hotan is under construction, to open in 2022, as a single track line, top speed 120 km/h.


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## NCT

China is a big place. Those railway projects might be extravagant by normal standards, but they are a drop in the ocean in the context of the fiscal capacity of a 1bn+ population.

As for what this 'strategic' means ... this is a transport board and, and I doubt any informed conclusions would emerge from us mere mortal civilians, and quite frankly I don't really want to go there.

Back to transport economics - as for upgrading the existing 'really slow conventional line' - well such upgrades usually consist of cut-offs to straighten very curved tracks, and if the whole route consists of really curvy tracks that follow contours, then building a new line is actually cheaper - you are not building any more route km but you are not constrained by an operational railway.


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## damndynamite

Reported on September 7: China to complete key rail project in Tibet amid tensions with India



> Construction work to complete the middle section of the Sichuan-Tibet railway link will begin in the upcoming weeks.


Do you have figures for cost of building a new line compared to upgrading the slow conventional line?



NCT said:


> Back to transport economics - as for upgrading the existing 'really slow conventional line' - well such upgrades usually consist of cut-offs to straighten very curved tracks, and if the whole route consists of really curvy tracks that follow contours, then building a new line is actually cheaper - you are not building any more route km but you are not constrained by an operational railway.


I'm asking because the figures used in the discussion thread can be way off. For example: "Constantly increasing wages and cost of construction would've ensured this line to cost at least 4 times to construct in 2034 than 2014." But according to the World Bank study from 2018 "costs are at least 40 percent cheaper than construction costs in Europe". If we are to make informed conclusions about transport economics at least, we should base analysis on rigorous data.


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## NCT

We are talking about a country where the railway is part of a planned economy. Talk of academic rigour at the level you advocate is frankly pi$$ing in the wind.

The economic reality of China is this:

there is a huge pool of low-skilled labour looking for employment
many existing settlements have widespread poor living conditions so resistance to being rehoused is comparatively low (low compensation bill)
opportunities for new developments are higher than at a more economically developed stage
If China pursued a more consumption driven economy fuelled by the demand of the coastal and urban middle classes then there'd be more imports and higher unemployment in the low-skilled workforce. In terms of the broad economics of bringing investment early:

diverting money away from private consumption to early investment and employment (keeping people employed for the sake of it with HSR as a by-product) buys you some short-term social cohesion
the financing burden upon future generations will be lower than if the infrastructure needs to be built in their lifetime (things like Crossrail in the UK are so expensive because there are so few construction workers and multiple projects bid up their wages to astronomical levels).


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## saiho

一度不會停車


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## saiho

SS-287


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## xizhimen

*Xinjiang HSR Bullet trains and railway stations













































































*


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## xizhimen

*Xinjiang HSR Bullet trains and railway stations




















































































*


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## xizhimen

*Xinjiang HSR Bullet trains and railway stations 



























































































*


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## xizhimen

*Xinjiang HSR Bullet trains and railway stations *


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## xizhimen

*Xinjiang HSR Bullet trains and railway stations*


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## chornedsnorkack

Rather more than that.
Present best times:
Urumqi-Lanzhou: 10:21 (D2708)
Lanzhou-Beijing: 7:14 (G438)
Urumqi-Beijing: no high speed train. Best time 30:04 (Z70), where a real high speed sleeper should be under 18 hours.
What should be trip times Beijing-Almaty and Beijing-Astana?


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## maginn

Well there are currently (before COVID-19) trains from Urumqi to both Astana and Almaty, but they take something like 30-40 hours...
It would make more sense to connect either Hanoi or Pyongyang to China’s HSR grid since both of those cities are much closer to the border with China than Astana or Almaty!


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## hkskyline

*Beijing-Shanghai high-speed trains to have quiet carriages*
_Excerpt_

BEIJING, Oct. 26 (Xinhua) -- High-speed trains between Beijing and Shanghai will have quiet carriages by the end of this year. The facility is aimed at providing a more tranquil and comfortable ambience for travelers.

Passengers willing to obey the rules can choose the "quiet carriage" while booking tickets on the website or mobile app 12306, according to the Beijing-Shanghai High Speed Railway Co. Ltd.

In a quiet carriage, onboard videos will be muted, and announcements made at a lower volume. Doors at the ends of the carriage will be kept closed to reduce noise from the vestibule.

Rules on passenger conduct in such carriages will be further specified.

The company will also initiate a flexible pricing mechanism, offering preferential ticket prices for commuters and frequent travelers.

More : http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-10/26/c_139468657.htm


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## coth

Canucklehead83 said:


> File:III железнодорожный съезд РЖД Москва 2017 4.jpg - Wikimedia Commons
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moscow-Kazan high-speed railway - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


Cancelled. Or postponed. Instead Russia returned to Moscow - Saint Petersburg HSR ideas. But very early ideas.


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## 33Hz

coth said:


> Cancelled. Or postponed. Instead Russia returned to Moscow - Saint Petersburg HSR ideas. But very early ideas.


They still have a project website. Project Profile - High-speed Railway


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## saiho

High speed rail allows you to see all of China by 星球研究所


----------



## gao7

*Meizhou Bay cross-sea bridge of Fuzhou-Xiamen high-speed railway under construction*
















































> Laborers work at the construction site of Meizhou Bay cross-sea bridge of the Fuzhou-Xiamen high-speed railway in Fujian Province, Nov. 2, 2020. The bridge is part of the province's Fuzhou-Xiamen high-speed railway, the first cross-sea high-speed railway in China, which is expected to be put into operation in 2022. (Song Weiwei)


Meizhou Bay cross-sea bridge of Fuzhou-Xiamen high-speed railway under construction - Xinhua | English.news.cn


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## gao7

*Trial operation of Xi'an-Yinchuan high-speed railway conducted in Shaanxi*
























> A bullet train participating in a trial operation of the Xi'an-Yinchuan high-speed railway pulls in at Xi'an North Railway Station in Xi'an, Shaanxi Province, Nov. 3, 2020. A 618-kilometer passenger dedicated rail line, the Xi'an-Yinchuan high-speed railway is expected to shorten travel time between Xi'an and Yinchuan from a dozen or so hours to just three. (Photo by Zhang Xin)


Trial operation of Xi'an-Yinchuan high-speed railway conducted in Shaanxi - Xinhua | English.news.cn


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## saiho

铁打的老young


----------



## gao7

*High-speed railway bridge over Tangxi River under construction in Chongqing*
























> Photo taken on Nov. 8, 2020 shows the construction site of a highspeed railway bridge over Tangxi River in Yunyang Township in southwest China's Chongqing. The 472.7-meter-long bridge, which finished its final stage for closure on Nov. 8, is part of the 818-kilometer-long highspeed railway linking Zhengzhou, provincial capital of Henan, with Wanzhou District of Chongqing. (Tang Yi)


High-speed railway bridge over Tangxi River under construction in Chongqing - Xinhua | English.news.cn


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## saiho

闫中楷


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## gao7

*Huanggang-Huangmei high-speed railway under construction*
























> Aerial photo taken on Nov. 18, 2020 shows the construction site of Zhuogang Grand Bridge of the Huanggang-Huangmei high-speed railway in Huangmei County, Hubei Province. The 125.12-km Huanggang-Huangmei high-speed railway in Hubei Province, is designed to run at a speed of 350 km per hour. (Du Huaju)


Zhuogang Grand Bridge of Huanggang-Huangmei high-speed railway under construction - Xinhua | English.news.cn


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## saiho

CR400Cs at Beijing North and Qinghe Stations by 大辽201512


----------



## [email protected]




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## gao7

*Weifang-Laixi high-speed railway put into operation







*










> A puppet show is held in a waiting room before the inauguration of the Weifang-Laixi high-speed railway at the Pingdu Railway Station in Pingdu City, east China's Shandong Province, Nov. 26, 2020. The 125.97-kilometer-long high-speed railway line linking Weifang, Pingdu and Laixi, with a designed speed of 350 kilometers per hour, was put into operation on Thursday. (Xinhua/Li Ziheng)


Weifang-Laixi high-speed railway put into operation - Xinhua | English.news.cn


----------



## gao7

*In pics: construction site of Sanhe section of Beijing-Tangshan intercity railway*
































> Aerial photo taken on Nov. 30, 2020 shows the construction site of the Sanhe section of the Beijing-Tangshan intercity railway in Langfang City, north China's Hebei Province. The 148.74-kilometer intercity railway linking Beijing, capital of China, and Tangshan, a port city in north China's Hebei Province is under construction with a designed speed of 350 kilometers per hour. (Xing Guangli)


In pics: construction site of Sanhe section of Beijing-Tangshan intercity railway - Xinhua | English.news.cn


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## saiho

中国铁路


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## Gusiluz

Own article on the web *Geotrén* (in Spanish) about the high speed in China: its immensity, its first class technology, its brutal development and its spectacularity. 
It is generally only known that it has the largest HSR in the world, but almost everything else is ignored.








Alta velocidad en China


(Última actualización: 26/12/2022) En poco más de una década, China ha pasado de inaugurar su primera línea de alta velocidad a tener el 68% del total de la red mundial, el 52% de los trenes y el 7…



www.geotren.es


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## saiho

桂菊荷段


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## saiho

SS-287


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## saiho

Testing on the last section of the Beijing Shenyang HSR.


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## Omotola

Chinese - Ebute Metta Lagos Railway Terminal #Train #Terminal #Tracks


----------



## gao7

*In pics: Girders erection work for Meizhou Bay cross-sea bridge continues amid low temperature*













































> Workers work at the construction site of girders erection for the Meizhou Bay cross-sea bridge of the Fuzhou-Xiamen high-speed railway in Fujian Province, Jan. 8, 2021. The girders erection work here continues amid low temperature and icy wind brought by a cold wave. (Song Weiwei)


Girders erection work for Meizhou Bay cross-sea bridge continues amid low temperature - Xinhua | English.news.cn


----------



## hkskyline

* China debuts bullet train that can operate in extremely cold temperatures *
CNN _Excerpt_ 
Jan 11, 2021

China has unveiled a new high-speed bullet train designed for extremely cold climates.

The CR400AF-G train, which can operate at speeds of up to 350 kilometers per hour (217 mph) in temperatures as low as -40 degrees Celsius (-40 degrees Fahrenheit), is part of the Fuxing series of high-speed electric multiple-unit (EMU) trains developed and operated by the state-owned China State Railway Group.

The train, rolled out in Beijing on January 6, will run on a new high-speed line connecting the Chinese capital with northeastern destinations including cities Shenyang and Harbin -- the latter of which is famed for its annual snow and ice festival.

Officials have yet to announce when the train will begin operations.

In a post on Chinese social media site WeChat, the China Railway Beijing Group -- part of the China State Railway Group Company -- ran through several of the train's optimized components that aid its ability to withstand cold temperatures.

More : China debuts bullet train that can operate in extremely cold temperatures


----------



## WuhanMilitaryOlympics19

Beijing-Harbin high-speed rail runs through the northeast, adding a new high-speed rail channel

On January 22, the first G908 Fuxing train from Shenyang to Beijing left Shenyang North Station and headed for Beijing Chaoyang Station. The Beijing-Harbin high-speed rail was fully connected on the same day, and a high-speed rail channel was added to the northeast. Beijing to Shenyang can be reached in 2 hours and 44 minutes.









Beijing-Harbin high-speed rail runs through the northeast, adding a new high-speed rail channel


On January 22, the first G908 Fuxing train from Shenyang to Beijing left Shenyang North Station and headed for Beijing Chaoyang Station. The Beijing-Harbin high-speed rail was fully connected on the same day, and a high-speed rail channel was added to the northeast. Beijing to Shenyang can be...




www.tellerreport.com














Map on wikipedia should be updated, seriously


----------



## gao7

*Beijing to Inner Mongolia: It's a flash by train*
A high-speed rail line connecting Chaoyang Station in Beijing with Chifeng Station in the Inner Mongolia autonomous region officially opened to the public on Friday. Travel time is a mere 2 hours and 40 minutes — a big improvement over the 8 to 10 hours required before.

According to the railway, two pairs of trains will shuttle between the cities daily, with stops at Pingzhuang and Ningcheng stations in Inner Mongolia, Jianping Station in Liaoning province, and Pingquan North and Chengde South stations in Hebei province.










> High-speed trains between Beijing's Chaoyang Station and Chifeng Station in the Inner Mongolia autonomous region began operations on Friday. [Photo by Xu Yingjia]


Beijing to Inner Mongolia: It's a flash by train


----------



## MelcToxic

WuhanMilitaryOlympics19 said:


> Map on wikipedia should be updated, seriously


I've spent my winter holyday/lockdown season doing precisely that. Using the data available on Wikipedia (both English and Chinese articles using translate), Openrailwaymap and several Chinese news outlets, I tried to map the entire HSR network in Goole Earth by line design speed and year of opening. 










I am sure that things are omitted because mapping an ever growing >36000km rail network in your free time is almost impossible. 
All the data is gathered into one .kmz file organized by year of opening. For each year there is a folder including lines, stations and misc. elements needed in drawing the map (connecting lines, junctions, etc). Whenever possible, clicking on a line shows you the corresponding en.wikipedia article. The same is true for all the stations marked on the map. Where an english article was not available or had insufficient info, the link to the Chinese version was added instead. I tried to map all new lines with a design speed of 200km/h or more, active, under construction or planned. 

Here is a download link for the .kmz file: *Filebin :: bin dsqjyeubv761xoeh*
I will try to refresh this link when the initial 14 days expire. 

If anyone is so inclined, we could use this file to add constant updates and improvements to the map and re-share it here. Since this network is constantly growing I think it would be useful for those of us interested in HSR development to have this tool to follow and track this growth. Feel free to correct any mistakes (I'm sure there are plenty) and re-upload it here if you make additions or updates. I used filebin because that's the first thing I found for sharing non-image files. If you have better alternatives, go ahead.


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## GojiMet86

MelcToxic said:


> I've spent my winter holyday/lockdown season doing precisely that. Using the data available on Wikipedia (both English and Chinese articles using translate), Openrailwaymap and several Chinese news outlets, I tried to map the entire HSR network in Goole Earth by line design speed and year of opening.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a download link for the .kmz file: *Filebin :: bin dsqjyeubv761xoeh*
> I will try to refresh this link when the initial 14 days expire.


That is such a great resource! I got it already. And the good thing is that it's not affected by GCJ-02 (for those who wonder, that's why streets and roads, latitude and longitude are all offset).


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## MelcToxic

GojiMet86 said:


> And the good thing is that it's not affected by GCJ-02 (for those who wonder, that's why streets and roads, latitude and longitude are all offset).


It's not, because I'm a maniac and all the mapping was done by hand 😄 tracing over existing satellite imagery.
But yes the offsetting thing is a pain when you are looking for places by coordinates.


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## GojiMet86

MelcToxic said:


> It's not, because I'm a maniac and all the mapping was done by hand 😄 tracing over existing satellite imagery.


Same, I did some for Guatemala and El Salvador; not high speed, but long abandoned, hence I had to resort to historical maps and any tattletale signs for right-of-ways.

I would recommend naming the station icons instead of putting them in the descriptions.


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## MelcToxic

GojiMet86 said:


> I would recommend naming the station icons instead of putting them in the descriptions.


That was the first choice. When zoomed out all the map was simply cluttered by text. I wanted to make that animated map showing the network expansion over the last decade, so I moved the names to the description and that's where they remained. If people find the initial version better I could make an alternative file that way. Please note that not all important railway stations are mapped. Most of the stations marked on the map are at the beginning/end of new HSR segments.


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## GojiMet86

MelcToxic said:


> That was the first choice. When zoomed out all the map was simply cluttered by text. I wanted to make that animated map showing the network expansion over the last decade, so I moved the names to the description and that's where they remained. If people find the initial version better I could make an alternative file that way. Please note that not all important railway stations are mapped. Most of the stations marked on the map are at the beginning/end of new HSR segments.


Ah, I see. Either way it's an incredible job.


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## MelcToxic

Thank you!


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## Bhurki18

∆∆∆
Not all heroes wear capes.


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## Coryza

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1qJI4z7ZT81mjToctwhUVeWUZo9KIQMCl&usp=sharing - Also a world high speed map.


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## WuhanMilitaryOlympics19

THX 4 the maps! anyway there r some missing lines too
Hope the maps on wikipedia will be updated


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## Coryza

WuhanMilitaryOlympics19 said:


> THX 4 the maps! anyway there r some missing lines too
> Hope the maps on wikipedia will be updated


Which ones are missing?


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## 欲望的火花

WuhanMilitaryOlympics19 said:


> When will the Zhengzhou - Wanzhou line open?


The end of 2021 does not rule out postponing to the end of 2022


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## 欲望的火花

As a Chinese, I’m really proud to see you praise China’s high-speed rail so much.


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## hkskyline

WuhanMilitaryOlympics19 said:


> Beijing-Harbin high-speed rail runs through the northeast, adding a new high-speed rail channel
> 
> On January 22, the first G908 Fuxing train from Shenyang to Beijing left Shenyang North Station and headed for Beijing Chaoyang Station. The Beijing-Harbin high-speed rail was fully connected on the same day, and a high-speed rail channel was added to the northeast. Beijing to Shenyang can be reached in 2 hours and 44 minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beijing-Harbin high-speed rail runs through the northeast, adding a new high-speed rail channel
> 
> 
> On January 22, the first G908 Fuxing train from Shenyang to Beijing left Shenyang North Station and headed for Beijing Chaoyang Station. The Beijing-Harbin high-speed rail was fully connected on the same day, and a high-speed rail channel was added to the northeast. Beijing to Shenyang can be...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tellerreport.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Map on wikipedia should be updated, seriously


I thought there was already a HSR connection between Harbin and Beijing? I recall taking it 2 years ago on my Harbin trip, although I did get off in Changchun along the way and stayed a for a bit.


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## NCT

chornedsnorkack said:


> Now that a new and faster line has been opened between Beijing and Shenyang, how do the high speed railways from various directions go in Beijing?
> How should a direct train Harbin-Shenyang-Chengde-Beijing-Guangzhou-Shenzhen pass through Beijing?


The current Covid timetable probably doesn't provide a full picture - I can only see two G trains a day doing things such as Shenyang - Wuhan, and both trains go via Tianjin.

The line south of Beijing Chaoyang is only single line so I think cross-Beijing capacity would be extremely limited. I don't see why such traffic would go via Beijing to be honest.


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## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Now that a new and faster line has been opened between Beijing and Shenyang, how do the high speed railways from various directions go in Beijing?
> How should a direct train Harbin-Shenyang-Chengde-Beijing-Guangzhou-Shenzhen pass through Beijing?


The fastest G trains from Harbin to Beijing take just under 5 hours with no stops after Shenyang. The fastest G trains from Beijing to Guangzhou take about 8 hours. I suppose it is possible to run an overnight train along the entire length of the country but not sure how many passengers they can entice north of Beijing to make the economics work. Beijing to Guangzhou alone seems a bit short to do a proper sleeper train with meal service.


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## Gusiluz

The problem is at the Beijing Chaoyang station, which seems to have no other exit. If the train entered at Beijing South there would be no problem.

A Harbin train south of Beijing (Beijing South station) has to go via Tianjin, and take two hours longer.
The new double-decker trains CR400BF-E with capsules are intended for very long runs, and I understand daytime, because their top speed is 350 km/h.








The target routes, according to them, are Beijing-Kunming and Harbin-Shanghai.
All the cars are double-deckers, so it looks like it will stop in very few places.

More (in Spanish) in my post on Geotrén:









Alta velocidad en China


(Última actualización: 26/12/2022) En poco más de una década, China ha pasado de inaugurar su primera línea de alta velocidad a tener el 68% del total de la red mundial, el 52% de los trenes y el 7…



www.geotren.es


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## NCT

High speed rail occupies an awkward space in the market for journeys of more than 5 to 6 hours. The convenience advantage over planes is well eroded by the journey time and there's no price advantage. Slow trains taking 20 hours exist as a heavily subsidised good for those who can't afford airline tickets.

Given everywhere will have fast and frequent trains to Beijing, is there a need for cross-Beijing trains? North East to Central China should just be routed via Tianjin and Baoding East. Fastest Shenyang to Beijing Chaoyang is 2h45, and fastest Shenyang to Tianjin by my calculation is around 3h10, so not going via Beijing would be at least no slower even if a cross-Beijing route were to exist.


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## Short

NCT said:


> High speed rail occupies an awkward space in the market for journeys of more than 5 to 6 hours. The convenience advantage over planes is well eroded by the journey time and there's no price advantage. Slow trains taking 20 hours exist as a heavily subsidised good for those who can't afford airline tickets.
> 
> Given everywhere will have fast and frequent trains to Beijing, is there a need for cross-Beijing trains? North East to Central China should just be routed via Tianjin and Baoding East. Fastest Shenyang to Beijing Chaoyang is 2h45, and fastest Shenyang to Tianjin by my calculation is around 3h10, so not going via Beijing would be at least no slower even if a cross-Beijing route were to exist.


The entire length of the service and line should not be the major factor in judging these services. Rather than looking at it as a single end to end 6 hour plus journey, it should be viewed as a series of 3 to 4 hour services between intermediate stops which are competitive with air travel. This helps to space out services across the timetable with a newly arrived train between A-B going on to serve B-C at more convenient intervals. The local train depot will not have to have as many trains ready on hand to start a new service, if a neighbouring railway bureau train can do the same job. The short stationary times for each continuing service is much less than a terminating service which then needs to reverse direction. The train continuing from a neighbouring bureau can give added capacity and/or flexibility when scheduled with local services on certain routes within their area. I can certainly see why operationally, it makes sense to have these long distance services across the entire network, but their patronage is mostly on shorter intermediate routes.

I have rarely used the long Chinese high speed services from end-to-end, but I have certainly used many of them for shorter sections in between the terminating stations. Such as along the coast of Fujian and the Urumqi-Lanzhou line. Most end-to-end HSR services have been on high demand, high capacity short routes, which cater to that need. Such as Chengdu-Chongqing and Beijing-Shanghai.


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> The fastest G trains from Harbin to Beijing take just under 5 hours with no stops after Shenyang. The fastest G trains from Beijing to Guangzhou take about 8 hours. I suppose it is possible to run an overnight train along the entire length of the country but not sure how many passengers they can entice north of Beijing to make the economics work. Beijing to Guangzhou alone seems a bit short to do a proper sleeper train with meal service.


To think of, maybe it would make sense to schedule a train via Baoding-Tianjin terminating Shenzhen-Harbin. Stopping at Shenzhen, Guangzhou, maybe picking up passengers elsewhere in Pearl River like Humen, in the evening - then travelling overnight with minimal stops to Tianjin, and in the morning between Tianjin and Harbin depositing the passengers in their various destinations in Manchuria. The migrant workers from Manchuria working in Pearl River would be logical.


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## cheehg

Gusiluz said:


> The problem is at the Beijing Chaoyang station, which seems to have no other exit. If the train entered at Beijing South there would be no problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alta velocidad en China
> 
> 
> (Última actualización: 26/12/2022) En poco más de una década, China ha pasado de inaugurar su primera línea de alta velocidad a tener el 68% del total de la red mundial, el 52% de los trenes y el 7…
> 
> 
> 
> www.geotren.es


Beijing Chaoyang station is connected with Beijing station, and then West station. There is train from Shijiazhuang to Chengde now using this way.


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## 33Hz

Gusiluz said:


> The new double-decker trains CR400BF-E with capsules are intended for very long runs, and I understand daytime, because their top speed is 350 km/h.


I don't think these are necessarily for daytime trips. I can see a scenario where they use their 350 km/h top speed for a few hours in the evening (to mix with other traffic), then they slow down to ~150 overnight, then they speed back up to 350 km/h in the morning (say, 6 AM) once the passengers have slept and they need to mix with the morning peak traffic. I am pretty sure the 250 km/h sleeper trains do a similar thing now.


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## NCT

Short said:


> The entire length of the service and line should not be the major factor in judging these services. Rather than looking at it as a single end to end 6 hour plus journey, it should be viewed as a series of 3 to 4 hour services between intermediate stops which are competitive with air travel. This helps to space out services across the timetable with a newly arrived train between A-B going on to serve B-C at more convenient intervals. The local train depot will not have to have as many trains ready on hand to start a new service, if a neighbouring railway bureau train can do the same job. The short stationary times for each continuing service is much less than a terminating service which then needs to reverse direction. The train continuing from a neighbouring bureau can give added capacity and/or flexibility when scheduled with local services on certain routes within their area. I can certainly see why operationally, it makes sense to have these long distance services across the entire network, but their patronage is mostly on shorter intermediate routes.
> 
> I have rarely used the long Chinese high speed services from end-to-end, but I have certainly used many of them for shorter sections in between the terminating stations. Such as along the coast of Fujian and the Urumqi-Lanzhou line. Most end-to-end HSR services have been on high demand, high capacity short routes, which cater to that need. Such as Chengdu-Chongqing and Beijing-Shanghai.


Joining services together makes sense in specific and limited ways - when both legs meet at a central station and it's genuinely more operationally efficient to run through than to turn trains around.

The most obvious example I can think of is Shanghai - Tianjin trains where the line naturally extends to Shenyang. I would still expect an extended dwell in the schedule at Tianjin (probably split between Tianjin West and Tianjin) for cleaning, restocking, and service recovery.

The bare minimum time for turning a 400m train around should just be the time for the driver to walk from one end of the train to the other plus shutdowns and resets, and doesn't need to be more than 15 minutes. Anything more than 15 is for the other reasons (cleaning, restocking and recovery) that you would apply just as much to a 'break-point' in a through journey.

There's an over-reliance in China on long train services to serve shorter passenger flows, and this comes at a price of too many trains using parkway stations and too few going into central stations. On Beijing to Guangzhou for example a more efficient operation would be to provide point-to-point services, and only relatively few services (max 1tph) doing the full Beijing - Guangzhou, calling at major parkway stations (Zhengzhou East, Wuhan, Changsha South) to make up the numbers. 

Of course for very substantial markets, even a minority end-to-end market share + intermediate parkway calls will fill a train, like Chengdu - Beijing, especially if the end-to-end travel time is still respectable even if to the right of the magic 4/5 hours mark.

Things like Harbin - Guangzhou are really an entirely different matter and shouldn't be prioritised over flows where rail have a distinct advantage, and cross-Beijing routing should be the least of anyone's worries.


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## NCT

cheehg said:


> Beijing Chaoyang station is connected with Beijing station, and then West station. There is train from Shijiazhuang to Chengde now using this way.


The chord from Chaoyang to Beijing East is a single line. The line between Beijing and Beijing East is only a double track railway that needs to handle all the regional traffic to the east. This means any Chaoyang - Beijing service will be no more than tokenistic.

Somebody's drawn a track diagram covering the whole of Beijing






［摊大饼］北京铁路枢纽配线图 [完工！]-北 京 区-地铁族


［摊大饼］北京铁路枢纽配线图 [完工！]




www.ditiezu.com


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## chornedsnorkack

NCT said:


> On Beijing to Guangzhou for example a more efficient operation would be to provide point-to-point services, and only relatively few services (max 1tph) doing the full Beijing - Guangzhou, calling at major parkway stations (Zhengzhou East, Wuhan, Changsha South) to make up the numbers.


The present service Beijing-Guangzhou is:
3 daily trains, of which 1 express and 2 milk runs. 1 per day, not 1 per hour. Trip trime 8:05 for express, 9:21 and 9:51 for milk runs. Departure times 10:00, 10:33, 13:07.
3 nightly trains, taking 10:08 to 10:23. All three depart between 20:15 and 20:35 and arrive between 6:33 and 6:48.
All three also pass Guangzhou - 2 to Shenzhen, 1 to Zhuhai.
Tianjin-Guangzhou has 1 daily train - originates Tianjin West 10:57, terminates Kowloon West.
Existing Shenyang-Tianjin is slow compared to Shenyang-Beijing. First morning train Shenyang-Tianjin takes 4:10; the fastest is 3:22. Fastest train Shenyang-Beijing is 2:45. Which is 37 minute difference. How does the trip time through Beijing on single track line compare?


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## foxmulder

This is really awesome. Viaduct factory! Only in China:


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## lawdefender

*Guangzhou-Shenzhen second High Speed Railway proposed (Brown Line) :*

Guangzhou North Station - Baiyun Airport - Huangpu - Songshan Lake(Dongguan) - Shenzhen Airport East

*Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong High Speed Maglev Line (600 km/h) proposed (Light Brwon Line) : 20 mins ( GZ to HK)*

Guangzhou East Station - Nansha - Shenzhen ( Xili or North Station) - Hong Kong ( Kowloon)

*Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong High Speed Railway in operation (Black Line): 47 mins (GZ to HK)*

Guangzhou South Station - Qingsheng - Humen(Dongguan) - Guangming City(Shenzhen) - Shenzhen North - Futian - Hong Kong( Kowloon)

----------------------------------------

Guangzhou GDP (nominal ) 2019 : 347 billion USD , Population: 15.3059 million , GDP per capita (nominal ) : 22,676 USD

Shenzhen GDP (nominal ) 2019 : 428.524 billion USD , Population: 13.4388 million , GDP per capita (nominal ) : 31,887 USD

Hong Kong GDP (nominal ) 2020 : 341.319 billion USD , Population: 7.5 million , GDP per capita (nominal ) : 45,176 USD







未来广深港磁悬浮线路压缩 或20分钟抵达九龙 _大公网







www.takungpao.com















Guangzhou-Zhongshan-Zhuhai-Macao High Speed Railway proposed















“广深地铁”真来了！22号线延至深圳，打造30分钟交通圈


南都讯“广深地铁”首次得到官方确认！地铁22号线将延伸到深圳...




c.m.163.com






Great Bay Area :

including 11 cities : Guangzhou, Foshan, Zhaoqing, Zhongshan,Jiangmen,Zhuhai,Dongguan,Huizhou,Shenzhen, HongKong, Macau.

Total population 2019: 70 million 

Total GDP 2020 : RMB 11595.5 billion (USD 1,783.92 billion), ranking 9th in the world by country.


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## hkskyline

I can't imagine the HK public would be willing to build a 2nd tunnel under the city for the light brown line after the first one blew the budget so badly!


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## Munwon

I can't believe Guangzhou has a larger economy than Hong Kong


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## lawdefender

Munwon said:


> I can't believe Guangzhou has a larger economy than Hong Kong


It is just a matter of time. Nothing special.


----------



## 欲望的火花

4.10 China Railway will usher in a new round of map adjustment. . . The Xiamen-Shenzhen Railway is determined to be restored to a speed of 250KM/H, and the price will also be increased to 0.43 RMB/KM

In addition, there is news that Yuwan high-speed rail is determined to return to the speed of 250KM/H, and the price will also increase to 0.43 RMB/KM. The Wanzhou-Wushan section of the Zhengzhou-Wanzhou high-speed railway will be opened at the end of the year. . . The Chongqing-Wushan high-speed rail will be compressed to 2 hours (now it takes 6 hours to drive the full high-speed in the car)


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## chornedsnorkack

欲望的火花 said:


> 4.10 China Railway will usher in a new round of map adjustment. . . The Xiamen-Shenzhen Railway is determined to be restored to a speed of 250KM/H, and the price will also be increased to 0.43 RMB/KM


The best time Shenzhen North-Xiamen North is 3:05 now. What will it be in April?
Also, what was population, per capita GDP and total GDP in 2019 of Dongguan?


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## 欲望的火花

chornedsnorkack said:


> The best time Shenzhen North-Xiamen North is 3:05 now. What will it be in April?
> Also, what was population, per capita GDP and total GDP in 2019 of Dongguan?


At present, the fastest time for the train from Shenzhen North to Xiamen North is 3 hours and 29 minutes (190CNY). It takes 3 hours and 5 minutes (210CNY) for sleeping cars....
Starting from 4.10, the fastest time is 2 hours and 30 minutes (219 CNY)~
Do you still know Dongguan? Are you an Estonian? Or a Chinese studying in Estonia?


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## chornedsnorkack

Estonian.
What is the point of such short-distance very high speed lines that have few stops and are not well integrated into other lines?


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## 欲望的火花

chornedsnorkack said:


> Estonian.
> What is the point of such short-distance very high speed lines that have few stops and are not well integrated into other lines?


Not all cars take 2 and a half hours... the fastest one is this time~


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## chornedsnorkack

欲望的火花 said:


> Not all cars take 2 and a half hours... the fastest one is this time~


Sorry. Short-distance very high speed lines I critizised was not Shenzhen-Xiamen - that´s fine, long enough - but the plans for new Guangzhou-Shenzhen lines.
Are there any plans to speed up the rest of the line Xiamen-Fuzhou-Wenzhou-Hangzhou?
I find that the fastest trains Shenzhen-Shanghai are 10:36, and these are overnight. The fastest day train Shenzhen-Shanghai is 11:43. Yet Guanzhou-Shanghai takes mere 6:48, via Changsha and Nanchang. 
Shenzhen has bigger GDP than Guangzhou.
Why is there not a single direct train Shenzhen-Shanghai via Guangzhou and Changsha? It should be feasible in under 8 hours!


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## Adilox

I guess if you really want to take a train precisely from Shenzhen to Hangzhou or Shanghai then you will be willing to change in Guangzhou as well


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## 欲望的火花

chornedsnorkack said:


> Sorry. Short-distance very high speed lines I critizised was not Shenzhen-Xiamen - that´s fine, long enough - but the plans for new Guangzhou-Shenzhen lines.
> Are there any plans to speed up the rest of the line Xiamen-Fuzhou-Wenzhou-Hangzhou?
> I find that the fastest trains Shenzhen-Shanghai are 10:36, and these are overnight. The fastest day train Shenzhen-Shanghai is 11:43. Yet Guanzhou-Shanghai takes mere 6:48, via Changsha and Nanchang.
> Shenzhen has bigger GDP than Guangzhou.
> Why is there not a single direct train Shenzhen-Shanghai via Guangzhou and Changsha? It should be feasible in under 8 hours!


Hangzhou to Wenzhou, Fuzhou to Zhangzhou, the three sections of 350KM/H line from Guangzhou to Shantou are under construction... and then the inter-provincial Wenzhou to Fuzhou and Zhangzhou to Shantou sections are still being planned. . .
The last question is very sensitive. . . . Issues involving China's railway bureau. . . Can we not discuss ?


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## NCT

Those issues shouldn't sensitive on an international board.


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## 欲望的火花

chornedsnorkack said:


> Sorry. Short-distance very high speed lines I critizised was not Shenzhen-Xiamen - that´s fine, long enough - but the plans for new Guangzhou-Shenzhen lines.
> Are there any plans to speed up the rest of the line Xiamen-Fuzhou-Wenzhou-Hangzhou?
> I find that the fastest trains Shenzhen-Shanghai are 10:36, and these are overnight. The fastest day train Shenzhen-Shanghai is 11:43. Yet Guanzhou-Shanghai takes mere 6:48, via Changsha and Nanchang.
> Shenzhen has bigger GDP than Guangzhou.
> Why is there not a single direct train Shenzhen-Shanghai via Guangzhou and Changsha? It should be feasible in under 8 hours!


The Ganzhou~Shenzhen high-speed rail (350KM/H), which will open to traffic at the end of this year... After the opening of this high-speed rail, Shenzhen will have a direct high-speed rail linking Ganzhou and Nanchang to Shanghai.


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## 欲望的火花

拉林铁路全线接触网贯通，计划今年6月30日建成通车


人民网林芝2月7日电：近日，在林芝市巴宜区川藏铁路拉萨至林芝段(拉林铁路)林芝车站，伴随着接触网落锚结束时放




mp.weixin.qq.com














More than 90% of the sections of the Lalin Railway are located at high altitudes above 3000 meters. It is the first electrified railway in the Tibet Autonomous Region. The road environment of the entire line is complex, the natural environment is harsh, and the construction environment is harsh. There are no cases and experience references for plateau electrification construction.

The main line of the Lalin Railway is 435.5 kilometers long. The newly-built main line is 403.1 kilometers. It is a single-track electrified Class I railway with a design speed of 160 kilometers per hour. There are 34 new stations on the whole line, and 17 stations will be opened initially. The whole line is planned to be completed and opened to traffic on June 30, 2021.

After the completion of the Lalin Railway, the existing Qinghai-Tibet Railway and Lari Railway will further improve the Tibet regional railway network and improve Tibet's traffic conditions. At the same time, the high-altitude electrified railway construction experience accumulated during the construction process will also provide an important reference and reference for the construction of the Yalin section of the Sichuan-Tibet Railway.


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## chornedsnorkack

欲望的火花 said:


> More than 90% of the sections of the Lalin Railway are located at high altitudes above 3000 meters.


That is Lhasa-Nyingchi.


欲望的火花 said:


> It is the first electrified railway in the Tibet Autonomous Region. The road environment of the entire line is complex, the natural environment is harsh, and the construction environment is harsh. There are no cases and experience references for plateau electrification construction.
> 
> The main line of the Lalin Railway is 435.5 kilometers long. The newly-built main line is 403.1 kilometers.


Because the first 32 km out of Lhasa is on existing Lhasa-Shigatse railway.


欲望的火花 said:


> It is a single-track electrified Class I railway with a design speed of 160 kilometers per hour.


Which means it is not a high speed rail.


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## luhai

NCT said:


> Those issues shouldn't sensitive on an international board.


Sensitive means it's flamewar bait on most many chinese forum, sometimes it devolves into hundreds of useless posts between just a couple of people and stink the pot for everyone. (Another popular one is why Suzhou has no international airport when it has bigger GDP than Nanjing) but I doubt people here care enough to flame.


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## chornedsnorkack

luhai said:


> Sensitive means it's flamewar bait on most many chinese forum, sometimes it devolves into hundreds of useless posts between just a couple of people and stink the pot for everyone. (Another popular one is why Suzhou has no international airport when it has bigger GDP than Nanjing)


In case of Suzhou, a logical reason might be that international airports of Shanghai are nearby.
But continuing the long distance trains from Guangzhou South on existing Guangzhou-Shenzhen high speed line to Senzhen should be easy. Why is this not done? There are a lot of people in Shenzhen needing to travel, and forcing them to connect at Guangzhou South is illogical.


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## 欲望的火花

luhai said:


> Sensitive means it's flamewar bait on most many chinese forum, sometimes it devolves into hundreds of useless posts between just a couple of people and stink the pot for everyone. (Another popular one is why Suzhou has no international airport when it has bigger GDP than Nanjing) but I doubt people here care enough to flame.


Let me say a sentence in Chinese:官高一级压死人
If you understand Chinese, you will understand the meaning of this sentence. . . It is also the best way to explain~


----------



## 欲望的火花

郑万高铁重庆段全面进入铺轨阶段，年底开通在即


中国铁建消息：3月1日上午，在重庆市万州区天城隧道施工现场，郑州至万州高铁（以下简称郑万高铁）重庆段第一组5




mp.weixin.qq.com












The Zhengwan High-speed Railway is connected to the Beijing-Guangzhou High-speed Railway and the Xulan High-speed Railway in the east, and to the Chengdu-Chongqing High-speed Railway, the Yuwan Railway and the Yu-Kun High-speed Railway under construction in the west, forming an express railway passage from Southwest China to Central Plains and North China. After the entire line is completed and opened to traffic, it will further open up railway transportation channels and improve the layout of the regional road network. It will promote the implementation of the country’s western development and the construction of the Chengdu-Chongqing double-city economic circle, increase the supply of southwest railway products, and promote local economic and social development along the line. It has very important practical significance.
According to the overall node construction period target of the Chengdu Bureau Group, it is required to open the Wanzhou North Station to Wushan Station at the end of 2021, and to complete the static acceptance of the section from Wushan Station to the provincial boundary. The Zhengwan high-speed rail line (Xiangyang-Wushan section) is expected to be completed and opened to traffic in July 2022. By then, it will only take 7 hours from Beijing to Chongqing at the fastest.


It also means that it only takes 4 hours to pass from Chongqing to Wuhan through the high-speed rail~

So here comes the problem. . . If the final price is 450CNY (350KM/H) high-speed rail takes 4 hours... 450CNY airplane takes 1 hour... 260CNY train (200KM/H) 6 hours... which one would you choose? ?And talk about your reasons


----------



## luhai

欲望的火花 said:


> Let me say a sentence in Chinese:官高一级压死人
> If you understand Chinese, you will understand the meaning of this sentence. . . It is also the best way to explain~


Exactly, but don't tell that to Guangzhou fan. Since talk of tax contribution and 哪个地区在吸哪个地区的血 will come back very quickly. However guangdong does seem to be more united in term of 地域黑 than Jiangsu.


----------



## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> In case of Suzhou, a logical reason might be that international airports of Shanghai are nearby.
> But continuing the long distance trains from Guangzhou South on existing Guangzhou-Shenzhen high speed line to Senzhen should be easy. Why is this not done? There are a lot of people in Shenzhen needing to travel, and forcing them to connect at Guangzhou South is illogical.


Guangzhou is the capital as well as the central location of its rail admin means it will do everything in its power to keep economic benefit inside. Shenzhen is also a weird case in that it is a SEZ, which means while it is part of gruandong province, it keep much of its tax revenue (and have lower effective tax rates due to various SEZ incentives), thus it's GDP factor very little in regional boss calculations. With that in mind, having Shenzhen having stronger transportion links with a outside economic hub like Shanghai, bypassing it's capital is not something regional bosses wants to encourage. Having greater bay area should reduce this type of rivalry, however, political concentration of Guangzhou and SEZ status of Shenzhen as well rivalary between the two does get in the way. (And that not even considering the cultural sphere, as Shenzhen is not very Cantonese and see as an outsider colony)

Jiangsu us even more of a basket case, since Nanjing is more integrated with Anhui (it is joking referred to as the real capital of Anhui), with rest of Jiangsu doing its own thing separately.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

luhai said:


> With that in mind, having Shenzhen having stronger transportion links with a outside economic hub like Shanghai, bypassing it's capital is not something regional bosses wants to encourage. Having greater bay area should reduce this type of rivalry, however, political concentration of Guangzhou and SEZ status of Shenzhen as well rivalary between the two does get in the way. (And that not even considering the cultural sphere, as Shenzhen is not very Cantonese and see as an outsider colony)


Precisely.
In 2019: population of Guangzhou 15,3 millions, Shenzhen 13,4 millions.
In 1980: population of Guangzhou 5,0 millions, Shenzhen 0,3 millions.
Much bigger fraction of the people of Shenzhen have homes, families and graves somewhere else. So they need to be able to get home quickly - not only for New Year holidays but also for Tomb Sweeping Day. Which lasts just 3 days.
It would make sense to schedule direct overnight high speed trains out of Shenzhen, so the migrants can embark Friday evening, pick up passengers from elsewhere in Bay Area from Guangzhou South, maybe Humen... and then disembark to their respective homes far away Saturday morning.


----------



## luhai

chornedsnorkack said:


> Precisely.
> In 2019: population of Guangzhou 15,3 millions, Shenzhen 13,4 millions.
> In 1980: population of Guangzhou 5,0 millions, Shenzhen 0,3 millions.
> Much bigger fraction of the people of Shenzhen have homes, families and graves somewhere else. So they need to be able to get home quickly - not only for New Year holidays but also for Tomb Sweeping Day. Which lasts just 3 days.
> It would make sense to schedule direct overnight high speed trains out of Shenzhen, so the migrants can embark Friday evening, pick up passengers from elsewhere in Bay Area from Guangzhou South, maybe Humen... and then disembark to their respective homes far away Saturday morning.


Yes, however, what make sense in practical sense does not make sense in political sense. Especially when it comes to resource allocation like this and can be seen as an indicator of hub status in the region.

If it is up to me, there should a lot more of overnight HSR trains, as many as the numerous T and Z trains HSR has replaced. Since these trains like short holiday trips and business trip more practical as "dead" time at night is used for travel rather than more useful day time. But since this sort of thing is rare rather than common.


----------



## 欲望的火花

luhai said:


> Exactly, but don't tell that to Guangzhou fan. Since talk of tax contribution and 哪个地区在吸哪个地区的血 will come back very quickly. However guangdong does seem to be more united in term of 地域黑 than Jiangsu.


It’s not the same...Jiangsu quarrels on the Internet...“通婚”is still possible in real life~The problem of the Guangdong ethnic group is unsolvable, the kind that doesn’t communicate with each other. This involves a term called “宗族”


----------



## 欲望的火花

luhai said:


> Guangzhou is the capital as well as the central location of its rail admin means it will do everything in its power to keep economic benefit inside. Shenzhen is also a weird case in that it is a SEZ, which means while it is part of gruandong province, it keep much of its tax revenue (and have lower effective tax rates due to various SEZ incentives), thus it's GDP factor very little in regional boss calculations. With that in mind, having Shenzhen having stronger transportion links with a outside economic hub like Shanghai, bypassing it's capital is not something regional bosses wants to encourage. Having greater bay area should reduce this type of rivalry, however, political concentration of Guangzhou and SEZ status of Shenzhen as well rivalary between the two does get in the way. (And that not even considering the cultural sphere, as Shenzhen is not very Cantonese and see as an outsider colony)
> 
> Jiangsu us even more of a basket case, since Nanjing is more integrated with Anhui (it is joking referred to as the real capital of Anhui), with rest of Jiangsu doing its own thing separately.


In fact, after the opening of the high-speed rail. . . . The pursuit of Anhui people is also improving. The most and highest-level people who stay in the country are all in Shanghai. At this stage, there may be fewer Anhui people in Nanjing than Anhui people in Hangzhou...
In fact, Shenzhen is also the largest city in Hunan Province...a high-speed rail allows many people to find job opportunities~


----------



## chornedsnorkack

欲望的火花 said:


> In fact, Shenzhen is also the largest city in Hunan Province...a high-speed rail allows many people to find job opportunities~


Changsha-Guangzhou has 102 high speed trains daily.
Changsha-Shenzhen has just 49.
For example, in a morning from 7:00 to 8:00, the high speed trains Changsha-Guangzhou are:

7:00 G6011 to Shenzhen North
7:10 G6109
7:16 G6101
7:28 G6013 to Shenzhen North
7:33 G6007 via Shenzhen North to Shantou
7:38 G6195 to Shenzhen North
7:49 G6105
7:55 G6015 to Shenzhen North
8:00 G6127 to Zhanjiang West
So 5 out of 9 go to Shenzhen, and 3 terminate at Guangzhou.


----------



## NCT

Silly politics aside, it's actually a bit difficult to turn trains around in Shenzhen from Guangzhou South.

At Shenzhen North you can't turn around anything from the north.

If a a train from Wuhan wants to go through Guangzhou South onto Shenzhen you have basically three options:
1. Send it onwards to Hong Kong
2. Send it onwards towards Shantou
3. Terminate it at Futian

1. Border control issues - you don't want to run more cross-border trains than you need to
2. It's an awful long way to go before you have a terminating opportunity. That's a lot of extra mileage for a 400m trainset which may well end up carrying a lot of fresh air.
3. There are 4 terminating platforms at Futian, but according to wikipedia they are only 325 metres long, which rules out the standard 400m train length. Looks like they are only intended for Shenzhen North - Futian shuttles.

This probably explains why most trains doing Guangzhou South - Shenzhen North tend to operate the Wuhan - Shantou route calling at several intermediate stations.


----------



## Adilox

chornedsnorkack said:


> In the urban, heavily curved and therefore necessarily slow speed sections, is there any technical difference between high speed rail and slow speed rail, or any technical obstacle to them sharing tracks?


Well usually the Chinese high speed rail has dedicated stations that are not in the direct downtown area. As a result the route is not really that curvy when approaching the station. Theoretically speaking though, I do not see why they wouldn’t be able to share tracks


----------



## avishar

saiho said:


> HXD3C0745


The landscaping is gorgeous.


----------



## Stressless

chornedsnorkack said:


> In the urban, heavily curved and therefore necessarily slow speed sections, is there any technical difference between high speed rail and slow speed rail, or any technical obstacle to them sharing tracks?


Possible technical differences:

Power supply: HSR use high power overhead lines, for example the TGV has two different pantographs, one for HSR tracks and one for local train tracks
Signaling: HSR sometimes can`t communicate with safety equipment on local tracks
track gauge: in Japan HSR have wider track gauge than local trains
minimum track curvature and track inclination: like cars, trains have a minimum track curvature, old urban rail sometimes are to curvy for HSR or are too steep for HSR (in Zurich Mainstation a TGV from a standstill could not climb the exitramp from the underground platforms)
clearance: Sometimes the lines are designed for smaller local trains. the HSR could run on the tracks but would hit into objects close to the track (bridges, walls, ...)


----------



## dyonisien

Stressless said:


> Possible technical differences:
> 
> Power supply: HSR use high power overhead lines, for example the TGV has two different pantographs, one for HSR tracks and one for local train tracks
> Signaling: HSR sometimes can`t communicate with safety equipment on local tracks
> track gauge: in Japan HSR have wider track gauge than local trains
> minimum track curvature and track inclination: like cars, trains have a minimum track curvature, old urban rail sometimes are to curvy for HSR or are too steep for HSR (in Zurich Mainstation a TGV from a standstill could not climb the exitramp from the underground platforms)
> clearance: Sometimes the lines are designed for smaller local trains. the HSR could run on the tracks but would hit into objects close to the track (bridges, walls, ...)


Track gauge in China is clearly the same on the HSL and the 'normal' network. 
Signaling might be a problem IF no HST ever runs on ANY portion of the ''historical' network. Is it the case in China ? It seems not, as this picture of a CRH380A in Shanghai shows.
Track curvature and clearance might be a problem on SOME rare parts of the network (any network has those characteristics listed and circulation of SOME trains can be forbidden on SOME parts of the network, allowing circulation on the rest). For example all TGVs since the TGV Atlantique are allowed on most of the 'historical' network in France, but slightly too broad to run on a few lines (not considered anayway). By the way all TGVs must be able to restart on a 35 ‰ ramp on the Paris-Lyon HSL (even the TGV Atlantique with 10 trailers cars; all recent TGVs have just 8 trailers and the same power and amount of motor axes), is the ramp out of the deep station in Zurich that steeper?
Modern pantographs can be adapted to different mechanical characteristics of the catenary (save for its broadth), so it should not be a problem.
The main reason for the Chinese railways not to share (or to share less and less?) tracks between HST and 'normal trains' must be capacity.


----------



## cheehg

Stressless said:


> Possible technical differences:
> 
> Power supply: HSR use high power overhead lines, for example the TGV has two different pantographs, one for HSR tracks and one for local train tracks
> Signaling: HSR sometimes can`t communicate with safety equipment on local tracks
> track gauge: in Japan HSR have wider track gauge than local trains
> minimum track curvature and track inclination: like cars, trains have a minimum track curvature, old urban rail sometimes are to curvy for HSR or are too steep for HSR (in Zurich Mainstation a TGV from a standstill could not climb the exitramp from the underground platforms)
> clearance: Sometimes the lines are designed for smaller local trains. the HSR could run on the tracks but would hit into objects close to the track (bridges, walls, ...)


the only problem for Chinese HST to run on legacy line is the signaling. But even this is just part. 250 km per hour or less trainsets equiped with LKJ system, so they can run on legacy lines. Some legacy lines equiped with C2 system so all the HST can run on those lines if they needed.


----------



## cheehg

dyonisien said:


> Track gauge in China is clearly the same on the HSL and the 'normal' network.
> Signaling might be a problem IF no HST ever runs on ANY portion of the ''historical' network. Is it the case in China ? It seems not, as this picture of a CRH380A in Shanghai shows.
> Track curvature and clearance might be a problem on SOME rare parts of the network (any network has those characteristics listed and circulation of SOME trains can be forbidden on SOME parts of the network, allowing circulation on the rest). For example all TGVs since the TGV Atlantique are allowed on most of the 'historical' network in France, but slightly too broad to run on a few lines (not considered anayway). By the way all TGVs must be able to restart on a 35 ‰ ramp on the Paris-Lyon HSL (even the TGV Atlantique with 10 trailers cars; all recent TGVs have just 8 trailers and the same power and amount of motor axes), is the ramp out of the deep station in Zurich that steeper?
> Modern pantographs can be adapted to different mechanical characteristics of the catenary (save for its broadth), so it should not be a problem.
> The main reason for the Chinese railways not to share (or to share less and less?) tracks between HST and 'normal trains' must be capacity.


Yes the capacity is the main reason. That's why China builds massive HSR net to release the capacity for more freight trains on legacy lines. another reason is the safety. I think they have the rules that a freight train should not meet with a HST on route. So HST trains only run on some legacy lines now, much less than before 2012.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Are there any objections to slow speed passenger trains sharing lines with high speed trains?


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Are there any objections to slow speed passenger trains sharing lines with high speed trains?


On the main trunk lines that'll create bottlenecks, such as Beijing - Shanghai which runs at every 15-30 minutes.


----------



## M-NL

chornedsnorkack said:


> Are there any objections to slow speed passenger trains sharing lines with high speed trains?


How fast should the high speed trains run? How fast will the slow speed trains be? How often do the slow speed trains need to stop at stations? How many stations will there be? How are those stations constructed? Is the track properly constructed to handle the higher axle loads of locomotives (a LGV isn't for instance)? Do the slow trains need to be pressure sealed to handle high speed encounters or do high speed trains have to slow down? What is the service pattern?
Mixing will usually either slow down the faster trains or severely reduce line capacity.


----------



## saiho

hkskyline said:


> On the main trunk lines that'll create bottlenecks, such as Beijing - Shanghai which runs at every 15-30 minutes.


 Beijing - Shanghai HSR runs closer to every 5-15 min depending on time of day.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

saiho said:


> Beijing - Shanghai HSR runs closer to every 5-15 min depending on time of day.


How many of those actually proceed to Shanghai rather than terminate at Shanghai Hongqiao? Some high speed trains do go to Shanghai, but so do slow speed trains - thus the section Shanghai-Shanghai West is clearly a shared urban line.


----------



## Negjana

There are 4 tracks between Shanghai West and Shanghai.


----------



## saiho

chornedsnorkack said:


> Are there any objections to slow speed passenger trains sharing lines with high speed trains?


 Generally no objection in principle but from a capacity standpoint they prefer giving exclusive tracks.


----------



## lawdefender

中国高速铁路网2020_km


2020中国高铁新线“成绩单”： 2020年，从6月28日商合杭高铁合航段通车，到12月30日盐通高铁正式开启商业运营，中国铁路先后建成高速铁路16条。此外， 广清城际线及广州东环城际线成为首条由地…




www.sohu.com





Data updated :2020-12-31

Operating speed 300-350 km/h HSR in China

Total length: 14363 km

HSR name--Project name—Starting/Ending Station- Length-Open time-Design Speed-Operating speed


----------



## lawdefender

中国高速铁路网2020_km


2020中国高铁新线“成绩单”： 2020年，从6月28日商合杭高铁合航段通车，到12月30日盐通高铁正式开启商业运营，中国铁路先后建成高速铁路16条。此外， 广清城际线及广州东环城际线成为首条由地…




www.sohu.com







Data updated :2020-12-31

Operating speed 200-250 km/h HSR in China

Total length: 23150 km

HSR name--Project name—Starting/Ending Station- Length-Open time-Design Speed-Operating speed


----------



## lawdefender

中国高速铁路网2020_km


2020中国高铁新线“成绩单”： 2020年，从6月28日商合杭高铁合航段通车，到12月30日盐通高铁正式开启商业运营，中国铁路先后建成高速铁路16条。此外， 广清城际线及广州东环城际线成为首条由地…




www.sohu.com






By 2020-12-31

Total length of HSR in China : 37900 km

2020 China HSR Map












2030 China HSR Map


----------



## lawdefender

中国高速铁路网2020_km


2020中国高铁新线“成绩单”： 2020年，从6月28日商合杭高铁合航段通车，到12月30日盐通高铁正式开启商业运营，中国铁路先后建成高速铁路16条。此外， 广清城际线及广州东环城际线成为首条由地…




www.sohu.com






By 2020-12-31

Total length of Intercity Railway of operating speed 200km/h in China : 850 km

Urban area-Intercity Railway name-Project name—Starting/Ending Station- Length-Open time-Design Speed-Operating speed


----------



## Coryza

Anyone care to translate these 2 tables? :$


----------



## foxmulder

lawdefender said:


> 中国高速铁路网2020_km
> 
> 
> 2020中国高铁新线“成绩单”： 2020年，从6月28日商合杭高铁合航段通车，到12月30日盐通高铁正式开启商业运营，中国铁路先后建成高速铁路16条。此外， 广清城际线及广州东环城际线成为首条由地…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sohu.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By 2020-12-31
> 
> Total length of HSR in China : 37900 km
> 
> View attachment 1290297


Beautiful.


----------



## Zaz965

is Chengdu-Xi'an the route that links the biggest chinese inland cities or not?













Xi'an - Chengdu High Speed Train: Schedule, Bullet Train Route, Tickets


About 45 Chengdu–Xi'an High Speed Trains operate from 07:00 to 19:00 every day, and charge CNY263 for second class seat. The total travel time is about 3-4.5 hours.



www.travelchinaguide.com


----------



## luhai

Zaz965 said:


> is Chengdu-Xi'an the route that links the biggest chinese inland cities or not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xi'an - Chengdu High Speed Train: Schedule, Bullet Train Route, Tickets
> 
> 
> About 45 Chengdu–Xi'an High Speed Trains operate from 07:00 to 19:00 every day, and charge CNY263 for second class seat. The total travel time is about 3-4.5 hours.
> 
> 
> 
> www.travelchinaguide.com


If going by size of the city, then Wuhan - Chongqing is bigger. However, that line is more like Wuhan - Yichang and Yichang - Chongqing rather than Wuhan - Chongqing.


----------



## saiho

*China looks to slow growth of struggling high-speed rail*



> China is introducing guidelines to limit new high-speed rail construction along underused routes as it seeks to drop projects that give short-term boosts to local economies but add to the huge debts of regional governments.
> 
> If a route is operating at less than 80% of capacity, then a second line should not be built covering the same route, according to guidelines released by the country's top economic planner and the transport authority on Monday.


I actually agree with this even though Caixin is generally has an anti-rail stance ("struggling" WTF?). The 8+8 network is really good when complete no need for redundant high speed railway lines. Maybe the money would be better spent on a Maglev network and improving regional railway lines.


----------



## foxmulder

saiho said:


> *China looks to slow growth of struggling high-speed rail*
> 
> 
> 
> I actually agree with this even though Caixin is generally has an anti-rail stance ("struggling" WTF?). The 8+8 network is really good when complete no need to redundant high speed railway lines. Maybe the money would be better spent on a Maglev network and improving regional railway lines.



Seriously..? they will never get tired of creating smearing/apocalyptical stories about everything China does. Even if the growth slowing (it is not by the way, the focus is changing from trunk routes to more regional/commuter ones) it is very much normal anyway at this mature level. Word "struggling" is just overcompensating by jealous parties


----------



## WuhanMilitaryOlympics19

What are the HSR lines scheduled to be opened in 2021?


----------



## saiho

皮特伦


----------



## Zaz965

^^^^^^^^
what city is this?


----------



## AlecC281

Zaz965 said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> what city is this?


Ningbo, Zhejiang (south of Shanghai)


----------



## cheehg

AlecC281 said:


> Ningbo, Zhejiang (south of Shanghai)


I can see the 3rd and 4th tracks are underconstruction now. Those should be used for S1 and Ningbo-Zhoushan HSR..


----------



## hkskyline

* Offshore survey ends for cross-sea rail bridge *
Apr 15, 2021
China Daily _Excerpt_ 

China has completed an offshore survey for a cross-sea high-speed railway bridge in Zhejiang province that will become the world's longest such bridge upon completion.

The 29.2-kilometer Hangzhou Bay bridge, with a designed speed of 350 km per hour, will be part of the railway line linking Nantong in Jiangsu province and Ningbo in Zhejiang.

It is unclear when construction will begin.

The offshore survey that was completed on Monday took five months, two and a half months less than scheduled, said Zhang Peng, an engineer from China Railway Design Corporation, the bridge's designer.

With gales of up to 140 km/h and waves nearly 7 meters high, it was a big challenge and very risky to conduct the survey, he added.

More : Offshore survey ends for cross-sea rail bridge


----------



## hkskyline

* Hong Kong airport lounge firm Plaza Premium sets sights on China’s high-speed rail stations amid uncertain recovery in air travel *
Apr 22, 2021
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_ 

Hong Kong-based airport lounge operator Plaza Premium Group has diversified to high-speed rail lounges with the launch of its first facility in Changsha in mainland China.

The Dragon Pass x Plaza Premium Lounge at the Changsha south high-speed railway station can accommodate as many as 290 guests at a time. The 700 square metre lounge can be accessed for a walk-in fee of 68 yuan (US$10.4) for a four-hour stay. Launched in January, the lounge has high-speed internet, a nursing room and a playroom for passengers with children.

“We have been in the airport lounge business for 22 years, and the revenues we have for the rail lounge now are less than 1 or 2 per cent of our entire revenue. But with the number of people in China, it can give us quite an interesting contribution to our group revenues,” said Song Hoi See, Plaza Premium’s founder and chief executive. The company was hammered by the coronavirus pandemic, which dragged its annual revenue down by 95 per cent last year. Before the pandemic, Plaza Premium served more than 20 million passengers in 49 international airports around the world annually.

More : Hong Kong airport lounge firm eyes China’s high-speed rail stations


----------



## Short

hkskyline said:


> * Hong Kong airport lounge firm Plaza Premium sets sights on China’s high-speed rail stations amid uncertain recovery in air travel *
> Apr 22, 2021
> South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
> 
> Hong Kong-based airport lounge operator Plaza Premium Group has diversified to high-speed rail lounges with the launch of its first facility in Changsha in mainland China.
> 
> The Dragon Pass x Plaza Premium Lounge at the Changsha south high-speed railway station can accommodate as many as 290 guests at a time. The 700 square metre lounge can be accessed for a walk-in fee of 68 yuan (US$10.4) for a four-hour stay. Launched in January, the lounge has high-speed internet, a nursing room and a playroom for passengers with children.
> 
> “We have been in the airport lounge business for 22 years, and the revenues we have for the rail lounge now are less than 1 or 2 per cent of our entire revenue. But with the number of people in China, it can give us quite an interesting contribution to our group revenues,” said Song Hoi See, Plaza Premium’s founder and chief executive. The company was hammered by the coronavirus pandemic, which dragged its annual revenue down by 95 per cent last year. Before the pandemic, Plaza Premium served more than 20 million passengers in 49 international airports around the world annually.
> 
> More : Hong Kong airport lounge firm eyes China’s high-speed rail stations


This would be fantastic. The so-called VIP/business lounges in Chinese high-speed rail stations are very poor compared to airport lounges. Often just a segregated fenced-off soft seating area in the vast waiting hall with maybe some tea and soft drinks available. Not convenient for anyone wanting to actually conduct business, with no dedicated business services. Let alone have a true international sense of VIP treatment. There is plenty of vacant space in many stations too, especially in the upper mezzanine restaurant levels found in many stations.


----------



## luhai

Short said:


> This would be fantastic. The so-called VIP/business lounges in Chinese high-speed rail stations are very poor compared to airport lounges. Often just a segregated fenced-off soft seating area in the vast waiting hall with maybe some tea and soft drinks available. Not convenient for anyone wanting to actually conduct business, with no dedicated business services. Let alone have a true international sense of VIP treatment. There is plenty of vacant space in many stations too, especially in the upper mezzanine restaurant levels found in many stations.


I don't know, the cost seems to be a bit stiff. For that amount money, you might as well sit at one of the restaurants or coffee shops. Although, other than missed trained or sold out tickets, I don't see why would people spend more than 30 minutes sitting at the station. You'll need line up at the gate 15 minutes before departure anyways.


----------



## Short

luhai said:


> I don't know, the cost seems to be a bit stiff. For that amount money, you might as well sit at one of the restaurants or coffee shops. Although, other than missed trained or sold out tickets, I don't see why would people spend more than 30 minutes sitting at the station. You'll need line up at the gate 15 minutes before departure anyways.


To follow your argument, you could do the same at many airports too and have no need for any lounge especially when travelling domestically. For the piece and quiet in what can be a very crowded and noisy environment. Plus the ability to access a legitimate business work area would be attractive. Trying to access power sockets in some stations is a nightmare with everyone trying to recharge their phones and such. Like wise, I have had some lengthy transfers at Chinese Highspeed Rail stations, or was dropped off early by business associates as it was convenient to them. There would certainly be a market for their service, especially considering the numbers of travellers. The proposed cost is not too high in that respect either.


----------



## foxmulder

hkskyline said:


> * Offshore survey ends for cross-sea rail bridge *
> Apr 15, 2021
> China Daily _Excerpt_
> 
> China has completed an offshore survey for a cross-sea high-speed railway bridge in Zhejiang province that will become the world's longest such bridge upon completion.
> 
> The 29.2-kilometer Hangzhou Bay bridge, with a designed speed of 350 km per hour, will be part of the railway line linking Nantong in Jiangsu province and Ningbo in Zhejiang.
> 
> It is unclear when construction will begin.
> 
> The offshore survey that was completed on Monday took five months, two and a half months less than scheduled, said Zhang Peng, an engineer from China Railway Design Corporation, the bridge's designer.
> 
> With gales of up to 140 km/h and waves nearly 7 meters high, it was a big challenge and very risky to conduct the survey, he added.
> 
> More : Offshore survey ends for cross-sea rail bridge



This will be an epic bridge  Cannot wait for the documentary about it!


----------



## gao7

*Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway under construction*










> Aerial photo taken on April 21, 2021 shows workers carry out construction on the grand bridge of Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway in Dushan County, southwest China's Guizhou Province. Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway is designed with a maximum speed of 350 km per hour. (Liu Xu)


Grand bridge of Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway under construction - Xinhua | English.news.cn


----------



## Kintoy

*inside China High Speed Train CR400AF Shanghai to Beijing*


----------



## saiho

Series500


----------



## itfcfan

It's not perfect, but Yandex have an image translator (Translate text from photos from English and other languages – Yandex.Translate) and I've used it to process the tables shared by @lawdefender into English as requested by @Coryza .



lawdefender said:


> 中国高速铁路网2020_km
> 
> 
> 2020中国高铁新线“成绩单”： 2020年，从6月28日商合杭高铁合航段通车，到12月30日盐通高铁正式开启商业运营，中国铁路先后建成高速铁路16条。此外， 广清城际线及广州东环城际线成为首条由地…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sohu.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data updated :2020-12-31
> 
> Operating speed 300-350 km/h HSR in China
> 
> Total length: 14363 km
> 
> HSR name--Project name—Starting/Ending Station- Length-Open time-Design Speed-Operating speed





lawdefender said:


> 中国高速铁路网2020_km
> 
> 
> 2020中国高铁新线“成绩单”： 2020年，从6月28日商合杭高铁合航段通车，到12月30日盐通高铁正式开启商业运营，中国铁路先后建成高速铁路16条。此外， 广清城际线及广州东环城际线成为首条由地…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sohu.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data updated :2020-12-31
> 
> Operating speed 200-250 km/h HSR in China
> 
> Total length: 23150 km
> 
> HSR name--Project name—Starting/Ending Station- Length-Open time-Design Speed-Operating speed






















Clearly some of the (literal) translations of place names, etc are hard to follow (e.g. "It's found in the United States" !!). But better than nothing. If anyone has time to put in a proper (human powered!) translation I'm sure a lot of us would appreciate it!


----------



## Coryza

You, are absolutely amazing. Much appreciated!


----------



## CNGL

It appears some translations are from Japanese! See, for example, _Kyotsu_ instead of Jingjin for the Beijing-Tianjin ICR. At least I took my time to learn some basic Chinese and I recognize many characters used in place names.


----------



## luhai

The visual map in the same article.










Also the translations are very funny. For example, I don't under the logic for why 呼张客运专线 (hohhot-Zhangjiakou PDL) would be translated as customer service hotline. Perhaps it read PDL as 客服专线 while completely ignored 呼张 part?


----------



## Zaz965

video about tack-laying machine


----------



## lawdefender

On February 24 this year, the State Council issued the "National Comprehensive Three-dimensional Transportation Network Planning Outline" (hereinafter referred to as the "Outline"). The "Outline" stated that by 2035, the total scale of the physical line network of the national comprehensive three-dimensional transportation network will total about 700,000 kilometers, of which about 200,000 kilometers of railways, including 70,000 kilometers of high-speed railways.

This means that in the next 15 years (2021-2035), China will build 53,700 kilometers of railways:

The high-speed rail : 32,100 kilometers,
The normal speed railway : 21,600 kilometers,

The average annual growth of high-speed railways : 2,140 kilometers, and the normal speed railway : 1,440 kilometers.

　　Compared with the previous 13 years (2008-2020), the pace of China's high-speed railway and normal-speed railway construction will slow down significantly.




中国高铁建设“减油门”：重点是调整高铁与普铁的投产比例_中国经济网――国家经济门户


----------



## saiho

saiho said:


> EIA for the Jinan-Zaozhuang railway, a high speed railway that essentially parallels the Jinghu HSR between Jinan and Zaozhuang. I don't know if that is the good idea. It might be better if this was built as a slow speed railway or freight railway to free up space on the Jinghu conventional line for regional services. Source
> 
> View attachment 631087
> 
> 
> View attachment 631091


So I posted about this a way back and it seems the Central Government agrees. Apparently, this project is halted because it just duplicates the Jinghu HSR. FYI a regional railway network around Xi'an was also halted, but that project is not as dumb.

Source by Nikkei with contributions from Caixin which have a slight anti-china and anti-rail stance respectively.


----------



## lawdefender

China high-speed rail time map

produced by China Railway Time Research Association (Japan)

Red line: High Speed Railway
Blue line: Normal Speed Railway
Number: Riding time between the two cities (hour)













https://www.guancha.cn/internation/2021_05_19_591266.shtml



In the past two days, a "China High Speed Rail Time Map" became popular on the Internet. Although it is an "imported map" from Japan, the Chinese characters in Japanese leaves Chinese netizens no obstacle to understand.

After checking , this time chart called "Time Required between Chinese Railway Cities" was produced by the "China Railway Time Research Association" in Japan.

On May 16, the "China Railway Moment Research Association" released this map on Twitter.


----------



## CNGL

I see they write Lhasa, Ürümqi, Hohhot and, most notably, Harbin in katakana instead of kanji (hanzi). The same is true for Inner Mongolia and Tibet regions. Also note the different "Guang" in Guangzhou, which is neither "unsimplified" (traditional) or simplified Chinese (and indeed, it doesn't appear in the Pleco Chinese dictionary at all).


saiho said:


> So I posted about this a way back and it seems the Central Government agrees. Apparently, this project is halted because it just duplicates the Jinghu HSR. FYI a regional railway network around Xi'an was also halted, but that project is not as dumb.
> 
> Source by Nikkei with contributions from Caixin which have a slight anti-china and anti-rail stance respectively.


The planned regional rail network around Xi'an apparently is a bit overkill for what the area had been designated. It appears to be a full regioneal network when it was approved for a basic one. On the other hand, some other areas seem to be lagging behind, like the area around Wuhan, which I haven't seen anything beyond the current radial lines and is approved for a full regional network. It's the most delayed area approved for a full regional network (although I haven't seen overview plans for Chengdu-Chongqing or the Yangtze Delta I know about many planned lines in these areas).


----------



## lawdefender

CNGL said:


> I see they write Lhasa, Ürümqi, Hohhot and, most notably, Harbin in katakana instead of kanji (hanzi). The same is true for Inner Mongolia and Tibet regions. Also note the different "Guang" in Guangzhou, which is neither "unsimplified" (traditional) or simplified Chinese (and indeed, it doesn't appear in the Pleco Chinese dictionary at all).


Check out the translation of the news link.


----------



## saiho

CNGL said:


> I see they write Lhasa, Ürümqi, Hohhot and, most notably, Harbin in katakana instead of kanji (hanzi). The same is true for Inner Mongolia and Tibet regions. Also note the different "Guang" in Guangzhou, which is neither "unsimplified" (traditional) or simplified Chinese (and indeed, it doesn't appear in the Pleco Chinese dictionary at all).


Yes Kanji can be a bit different than Hanzi (or completely different) For example Hiroshima Station (広島駅 vs 廣島站 vs 广岛站)



CNGL said:


> The planned regional rail network around Xi'an apparently is a bit overkill for what the area had been designated. It appears to be a full regioneal network when it was approved for a basic one.


Well I felt that some of those lines can be used as freight bypasses. This I think is a broader issue with China's Railways, increasingly the legacy lines are being saturated by freight or sleeper traffic but most small settlements cluster around the legacy lines. Regional railway services would work better on those lines rather than a new build regional line a few km away. For example a freight bypass line with some passenger service following the alignment of the proposed new build Xi'an regional railway line north of the Xian Baoji Mainline will allow for more regional services on Xian Baoji Mainline which are serving more populated areas anyways.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

saiho said:


> Well I felt that some of those lines can be used as freight bypasses. This I think is a broader issue with China's Railways, increasingly the legacy lines are being saturated by freight or sleeper traffic but most small settlements cluster around the legacy lines. Regional railway services would work better on those lines rather than a new build regional line a few km away. For example a freight bypass line with some passenger service following the alignment of the proposed new build Xi'an regional railway line north of the Xian Baoji Mainline will allow for more regional services on Xian Baoji Mainline which are serving more populated areas anyways.


Precisely. A modest upgrade to speed up a legacy line with existing small settlements plus a new parallel line for freight and sleeper services would work better than crowding the legacy line with trains that do not stop.


----------



## cheehg

saiho said:


> Yes Kanji can be a bit different than Hanzi (or completely different) For example Hiroshima Station (広島駅 vs 廣島站 vs 广岛站)
> 
> 
> 
> Well I felt that some of those lines can be used as freight bypasses. This I think is a broader issue with China's Railways, increasingly the legacy lines are being saturated by freight or sleeper traffic but most small settlements cluster around the legacy lines. Regional railway services would work better on those lines rather than a new build regional line a few km away. For example a freight bypass line with some passenger service following the alignment of the proposed new build Xi'an regional railway line north of the Xian Baoji Mainline will allow for more regional services on Xian Baoji Mainline which are serving more populated areas anyways.


Hangzhou to Ningbo regional line uses this method. They planed a new freight line north of the existing line connect the main industral zones on the south of the Qindangjiang river. The legacy line is coverting to regional line. Ningbo S1 and Shaoxing S1 are operating now but with limited trains. Those two cisties even run a few through service. They share the trainsets. All of them are CRH6F, two 8 car sets and 4 4 car sets right now. Hangzhou will need to build a new line from Hangzhou station to South station. Right now, some trains terminal at Hangzhou South. After Ningbo to Yiwu railway open to serive, the freight trains will be reduced on this line so they can put more trains. As for Ningbo S1, they are building new line from Ningbo to Zhuangqiao station so they can increase the franqence. Right now they have to share the tracks with HSR. Also Ningbo east station will be the new terminal in the future.


----------



## saiho

Ya I think this will be the next big thing for China's Railways, all the key corridors that need high speed rail at this point got it or will be getting it soon. There is no need for redundant 350km/h capable lines. I would say now is the time to start look into optimizing the network for more local services on the conventional network by separating out the freight and long distance trains. Same for intra city networks. If you look at what's in the pipeline for subway construction in every tier one or strong tier two city, large sections of the those cities will be very well served by 2025-2030. Maybe it is time to start thinking about a JR or RER style regional network using conventional lines to start serving other urban transport markets and compliment the local metro system.


----------



## cheehg

saiho said:


> Ya I think this will be the next big thing for China's Railways, all the key corridors that need high speed rail at this point got it or will be getting it soon. There is no need for redundant 350km/h capable lines. I would say now is the time to start look into optimizing the network for more local services on the conventional network by separating out the freight and long distance trains. Same for intra city networks. If you look at what's in the pipeline for subway construction in every tier one or strong tier two city, large sections of the those cities will be very well served by 2025-2030. Maybe it is time to start thinking about a JR or RER style regional network using conventional lines to start serving other urban transport markets and compliment the local metro system.


It`s already in prograss. Because it will be not under CR so we don't hear much about it. At least in regions near Guangzhou-Shenzhen, Shanghai-Nanjing-Hangzhou and Beijing-Tianjin, more than 5k kms lines will be built in next 10 years. They are also pushing CR to co-op with local governments to use the existing railways to operate suburban trains or regional trains. Local governments pay to CR for the services. Hainan East HSR was built to let Haikou run regional trains. There are some small stations in the city. It will be extended to west coast railway too. Sanya is using the same method. They need to build some facilities and connecting sections so it can use both west HSR and west coast legacy line.


----------



## lawdefender

Guangdong Province Railway Construction Plan (2021-2035)


Remarks: same color line, thick line : HSR, thin line: Ordinary Speed Railway

All the lines marked with Chinese Name in the map.

1. HSRs ,Intercity Railways and Ordinary Speed Railways in operation
2. HSRs / OSRs under construction
3. HSRs / OSRs starting construction in 2019
4. HSRs / OSRs starting construction in 2020-2022
5. HSRs / OSRs starting construction in 2023-2035















广东省2020年铁路计划_最新资讯_资讯_肇庆优房网-肇庆房地产-肇庆房地产综合门户网站


广东省2020年&




www.f0758.com


----------



## CNGL

Unsurprisingly I'm still finding new high speed rail lines. This is the first time I see Heyuan-Shantou, Longchuan-Meishan and Meishan-Shantou lines.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Note that existing ordinary speed railways are shown but under construction and future ordinary speed railways are not.


----------



## saiho

chornedsnorkack said:


> Note that existing ordinary speed railways are shown but under construction and future ordinary speed railways are not.


What under construction and future ordinary speed railways are not shown?


----------



## Bikes




----------



## chornedsnorkack

saiho said:


> What under construction and future ordinary speed railways are not shown?


I see that the post is now edited. The accompanying text now specifies that under construction and future ordinary speed railways are also shown.


----------



## lawdefender

The full track laying of Ganzhou-Shenzhen high-speed railway is completed

2021-06-13 14:05

At 10 o'clock on the 12th, at the construction site in Heping County and Yi Village, Heyuan City, Guangdong Province, with the laying of the last 500-meter rail section of the Guangdong section in place, the full track laying of the Ganzhou-Shenzhen High-speed Railway was successfully completed, laying a solid foundation for the opening of the entire line at the end of the year .

The Ganzhou-Shenzhen high-speed railway starts from Ganzhou in the north and connects to Shenzhen in the south. It has a total length of 436.3 kilometers and a designed maximum speed of 350 kilometers per hour. It has 14 stations, of which the Guangdong section is 301.8 kilometers long. The southernmost line of the high-speed rail corridor is also a high-speed rail artery that shortens the time and space distance between Guangdong and Jiangxi.

According to reports, the Ganzhou-Shenzhen high-speed rail is expected to be put into operation by the end of this year. After opening to traffic, the running time of the trains between Jiangxi and Shenzhen will be reduced from about 7 hours to about 2 hours at the fastest. 















赣深高铁全线轨道铺设完成_广东


赣深高铁广东河源与江西赣州交汇处的连绵隧道（无人机照片） 新华社发 羊城晚报讯 记者李志文、王磊报道：12日10时许，在广东省河源市和平县和一村的施工现场，随着广…




www.sohu.com


----------



## chornedsnorkack

lawdefender said:


> According to reports, the Ganzhou-Shenzhen high-speed rail is expected to be put into operation by the end of this year. After opening to traffic, the running time of the trains between Jiangxi and Shenzhen will be reduced from about 7 hours to about 2 hours at the fastest.


Not possible.
G638, originates Shenzhen North 18:08, travels via Changsha, terminates Nanchang 22:45, trip time 4:37.
D728, originates Shenzhen 14:16, arrives Ganzhou 20:03, trip time 5:47.


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## maginn

D728 is the fastest train between Shenzhen and Ganzhou as it’s an overnight HSR train, normally trains on this route aren’t ‘D’ trains and do take up to 7 hours (some even longer).


----------



## chornedsnorkack

maginn said:


> D728 is the fastest train between Shenzhen and Ganzhou as it’s an overnight HSR train, normally trains on this route aren’t ‘D’ trains and do take up to 7 hours (some even longer).


Yes. But my point is that there already are high speed trains that take less than 7 hours.
I have spotted such errors with other announcements of HSR openings before - the quoted "improvement" of trip time turns out to omit already existing high speed trains.
Precisely how does Ganzhou-Shenzhen HSR go and join existing HSR routes around Pearl estuary?


----------



## maginn

The line will connect to Shenzhenbei railway station, so from there trains can continue on towards Guangzhounan/West Kowloon/Chaoshan, etc.


----------



## gao7

*Yanjiazhai tunnel of Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway drilled through*

















> Staff members work inside the Yanjiazhai tunnel of the Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway in Dushan County, Guizhou Province, June 14, 2021. The 1.67-km-long tunnel was drilled through on Monday, enabling further construction work for the Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway, which will run with a design speed of 350 km per hour.


Yanjiazhai tunnel of Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway drilled through - Xinhua | English.news.cn


----------



## chornedsnorkack

maginn said:


> The line will connect to Shenzhenbei railway station, so from there trains can continue on towards Guangzhounan/West Kowloon/Chaoshan, etc.


At present, the fastest train Guangzhou-Nanchang is G86. Taking 3:44, with one stop at Changsha.
When Shenzhen-Ganzhou opens, how long shall Guangzhou-Nanchang via Ganzhou take?


----------



## maginn

It definitely won’t be quicker from Guangzhou to Nanchang via Ganzhou on the new line…
I doubt there will be services running like that either, most likely you’ll see Guangzhounan to Ganzhouxi services via Shenzhenbei (I also think most services will probably terminate in the province at the new Heyuan HSR station).


----------



## cheehg

maginn said:


> It definitely won’t be quicker from Guangzhou to Nanchang via Ganzhou on the new line…
> I doubt there will be services running like that either, most likely you’ll see Guangzhounan to Ganzhouxi services via Shenzhenbei (I also think most services will probably terminate in the province at the new Heyuan HSR station).


there is a link line from Huizhou to Guangzhou east via Shanwei HSR. this link is part of the Guang-Shan project. So it is not ready yet.
also there a full set of link lines in Tangxia linking Guangshen l and ii lines both Shenzhen station and Guangzhou station directions. so both Shenzhen station and Guangzhou east station can have trains to Ganzhou. It is also possible for Chaoshan to Ganzhou and Nanchang trains.


----------



## canarias50

Hi, I have seen many trains in Shandong are cancelled from end June to begin July, mainly from Qingdao. Any idea? Maybe maintenance working. Thanks


----------



## cheehg

canarias50 said:


> Hi, I have seen many trains in Shandong are cancelled from end June to begin July, mainly from Qingdao. Any idea? Maybe maintenance working. Thanks


CR will have a timetable chang on June 25. This maybe the reason.


----------



## canarias50

cheehg said:


> CR will have a timetable chang on June 25. This maybe the reason.


Ok, but the service is stopped during two weeks 🤔


----------



## cheehg

canarias50 said:


> Ok, but the service is stopped during two weeks 🤔


I think it is not stopped but just not online yet. you can check it later. or use another online source to check.
I just checked Ctrip and CR websites. all those trains you cannot buy ticket now are starting and terminaling within CR Jinan. Ctrip shows the tickets will be sold on June 24 for June 25 trains.


----------



## cheehg

canarias50 said:


> Ok, but the service is stopped during two weeks 🤔


I just saw the news from Chinese websites that CR may not allow high-speed trains to run on the mixed lines. Many of the trains from Qingdao go on the Qingdao-Lianyungang lines will be affected because part of this line near Qingdao port has freight trains. Many trains will be affected. This is not a good idea. I think if a lot of people protesting online, they may abolish this idea.


----------



## boblol76

saiho said:


> *China looks to slow growth of struggling high-speed rail*
> 
> 
> 
> I actually agree with this even though Caixin is generally has an anti-rail stance ("struggling" WTF?). The 8+8 network is really good when complete no need for redundant high speed railway lines. Maybe the money would be better spent on a Maglev network and improving regional railway lines.


Does this mean this long-term planned HSR network map from cjian0732 of ditiezu is inaccurate? That would be a real shame, because there is no continuous 350 km/h HSR lines between Shanghai-Guangzhou, Shanghai-Chengdu, or Guangzhou-Chengdu, despite these being among the core major cities of the mainland. IIRC the Shanghai-Chengdu 350 km/h line has been approved for construction, but I am unsure about the other main trunk lines I listed if they are going to be built. The map says those new lines will be built, but IDK how this policy directive from the central gov't affects these plans.


----------



## saiho

Yes and no. A lot of those lines are going to be constructed but plans will be most likely be modified. For example, the Shanghai-Guangzhou corridor there are already numerous 350 km/h capable segments under construction. However, some of the more ridiculous plans will get axed. For example, the quad tracking of 350km/h lines between Zaozhuang and Jinan shown on cjian0732's map will most likely not get built. Good, that was stupid anyway. 

Additionally, a lot of the mid (Yellow lines, to start construction in 2025) to long (Green lines, to start construction in 2030) term lines will be modified. Especially the 350km/h rated ones (thick lines). Does Xiushui, Jiangxi need six 350 km/h PDLs radiating in each direction? I would say no. But if they are 160km/h to 200km/h mixed passenger and freight, ya that's a better plan.


----------



## boblol76

saiho said:


> Yes and no. A lot of those lines are going to be constructed but plans will be most likely be modified. For example, the Shanghai-Guangzhou corridor there are already numerous 350 km/h capable segments under construction. However, some of the more ridiculous plans will get axed. For example, the quad tracking of 350km/h lines between Zaozhuang and Jinan shown on cjian0732's map will most likely not get built. Good, that was stupid anyway.
> 
> Additionally, a lot of the mid (Yellow lines, to start construction in 2025) to long (Green lines, to start construction in 2030) term lines will be modified. Especially the 350km/h rated ones (thick lines). Does Xiushui, Jiangxi need six 350 km/h PDLs radiating in each direction? I would say no. But if they are 160km/h to 200km/h mixed passenger and freight, ya that's a better plan.


So it's basically like most of the planned 350 km/h segments between major Tier-1/New Tier-1 cities like Chengdu will be constructed, but not between the smaller cities like Jinan?


----------



## WuhanMilitaryOlympics19

Any news about Shanghai-Chengdu 350 km/h line?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

boblol76 said:


> there is no continuous 350 km/h HSR lines between Shanghai-Guangzhou, Shanghai-Chengdu, or Guangzhou-Chengdu, despite these being among the core major cities of the mainland. IIRC the Shanghai-Chengdu 350 km/h line has been approved for construction, but I am unsure about the other main trunk lines I listed if they are going to be built.


There is continuous 350 km/h Shanghai-Changsha-Guangzhou. And in this year, there will be continuous 350 km/h Shanghai-Nanchang-Ganzhou-Shenzhen-Guangzhou. Which line do you mean?


----------



## cheehg

boblol76 said:


> Does this mean this long-term planned HSR network map from cjian0732 of ditiezu is inaccurate? That would be a real shame, because there is no continuous 350 km/h HSR lines between Shanghai-Guangzhou, Shanghai-Chengdu, or Guangzhou-Chengdu, despite these being among the core major cities of the mainland. IIRC the Shanghai-Chengdu 350 km/h line has been approved for construction, but I am unsure about the other main trunk lines I listed if they are going to be built. The map says those new lines will be built, but IDK how this policy directive from the central gov't affects these plans.
> View attachment 1668425


Guangzhou-Guiyang line is under renovation to upgrade to 300km/h, and there is planned Guiyang to Chongqing 350km/h line. 
Shanghai to Guangzhou 350km/h will be: Nantong-Ningbo 350km/h, Ningbo-Fuzhou 350km/h (long term plan), Fuzhou to Zhangzhou 350km/h (underconstruction), Zhangzhou to Shantou (plan) and Shantou to Shanwei to Guangzhou (underconstruction).
another routing is Shanghai-Hangzhou-Nanchang-Ganzhou-Huizhou-Guangzhou.


----------



## foxmulder

boblol76 said:


> Does this mean this long-term planned HSR network map from cjian0732 of ditiezu is inaccurate? That would be a real shame, because there is no continuous 350 km/h HSR lines between Shanghai-Guangzhou, Shanghai-Chengdu, or Guangzhou-Chengdu, despite these being among the core major cities of the mainland. IIRC the Shanghai-Chengdu 350 km/h line has been approved for construction, but I am unsure about the other main trunk lines I listed if they are going to be built. The map says those new lines will be built, but IDK how this policy directive from the central gov't affects these plans.
> View attachment 1668425




LOL. NO. There is a huge difference between "looking to slow growth of struggling high-speed rail" vs the reality "*very successful high speed network built up coming to conclusion*". Also there is no slow down anyway 

*Ridership on High-speed EMU train sets in China*

Year million riders ±% p.a.
2007 61 — 
2008 127 +108.20%
2009 179 +40.94%
2010 290 +62.01%
2011 440 +51.72%
2012 486 +10.45%
2013 672 +38.27%
2014 893 +32.89%
2015 1,161 +30.01%
2016 1,440 +24.03%
2017 1,713 +18.96%
2018 2,001 +16.81%
2019 2,290 +14.44%


Total length of high speed rail network:









It is just jealous people spewing misinformation. It is also good April's fool joke from Nikkei


----------



## boblol76

cheehg said:


> Guangzhou-Guiyang line is under renovation to upgrade to 300km/h, and there is planned Guiyang to Chongqing 350km/h line.
> Shanghai to Guangzhou 350km/h will be: Nantong-Ningbo 350km/h, Ningbo-Fuzhou 350km/h (long term plan), Fuzhou to Zhangzhou 350km/h (underconstruction), Zhangzhou to Shantou (plan) and Shantou to Shanwei to Guangzhou (underconstruction).
> another routing is Shanghai-Hangzhou-Nanchang-Ganzhou-Huizhou-Guangzhou.


Per this map, I thought Guangzhou-Guiyang was already at 350 km/h; the remaining section of Guiyang-Chengdu is only at 250 km/h.









You are right that there is a planned 350 km/h route between Guiyang and Chongqing, which would also connect up with the 350 km/h Chengdu-Chongqing lne, thus creating a continuous 350 km/hr route between the PRD and Chengdu-Chongqing. But @saiho mentioned that the yellow-colored lines that are planned to start construction by 2025 are by no means guaranteed given recent changes in policy directives from the central gov't. Having said that, its possible that this Guiyang-Chognqing 350 km/h line has already been approved by the gov't and is set to happen, but I just can't find any official news confirming it.


----------



## lawdefender

*Chinese Cities Ranking by HSR Services

Shanghai has almost 700 HSR trains per day.

Beijing has HSR train services connecting to 190 Chinese cities.*


Remarks:

Red Line: Number of Cities connecting by High Speed Train Service
Blue Line: High Speed Train frequency/per day in the City











From left to right:

*Shanghai-Beijing-Nanjing-Zhengzhou-Hangzhou-Changsha-Wuxi-Suzhou-Guangzhou-Changzhou-Wuhan-Xuzhou











339座城市，谁的高铁站最多？谁的高铁站最繁忙？


339座城市，谁的高铁站最多？谁的高铁站最繁忙？




news.sina.com.cn




*


----------



## RyukyuRhymer

Tibet's first bullet train line enters service


A 435-kilometer (250-mile) rail line connecting Tibetan capital Lhasa with the city of Nyingchi has entered into service, giving all 31 provincial-level regions of mainland China access to high-speed train travel.




edition.cnn.com


----------



## boblol76

RyukyuRhymer said:


> Tibet's first bullet train line enters service
> 
> 
> A 435-kilometer (250-mile) rail line connecting Tibetan capital Lhasa with the city of Nyingchi has entered into service, giving all 31 provincial-level regions of mainland China access to high-speed train travel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edition.cnn.com


Wouldn't quite call it a bullet train, it runs only at 160 km/h (could qualify as higher-speed rail at best)


----------



## gao7

*World's first 600 km/h high-speed maglev train rolls off assembly line*
























> Photo taken with a mobile phone on July 20, 2021 shows China's new maglev transportation system in Qingdao, Shandong Province. China's new high-speed maglev train rolled off the production line on Tuesday. It has a designed top speed of 600 km per hour -- currently the fastest ground vehicle available globally. The new maglev transportation system made its public debut in the coastal city of Qingdao. It has been self-developed by China, marking the country's latest scientific and technological achievement in the field of rail transit, according to the China Railway Rolling Stock Corporation. (Wang Kai)


World's first 600 km/h high-speed maglev train rolls off assembly line - Xinhua | English.news.cn


----------



## boblol76

gao7 said:


> *World's first 600 km/h high-speed maglev train rolls off assembly line*
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> World's first 600 km/h high-speed maglev train rolls off assembly line - Xinhua | English.news.cn


Have they tested it for such speeds yet? AFAIK the Chuo Shinkansen is the only maglev that has been demonstrably tested to go faster than 600 km/h.


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## Adilox

boblol76 said:


> Have they tested it for such speeds yet? AFAIK the Chuo Shinkansen is the only maglev that has been demonstrably tested to go faster than 600 km/h.


No it hasn’t been afaik. I guess they call it the fastest, because the Chuo Shinkansen will operate only at ~500 km/h, while China plans on day-to-day operations at 600 km/h


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## dekechemist

According to the interview in CGTN, their next step is to build a test track where they will find out how fast this train could go. The construction of the test track alone would take between 1 to 1.5 years followed by at least another year of testing. I guess we will be looking at least another 5 years before you can buy ticket and ride one of them.


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## gao7

*Chaoyang-Linghai high-speed railway officially put into operation*

























> Aerial photo taken on Aug. 3, 2021 shows passenger train No. G9147 from Jinzhou North to Dalian operating along the newly opened Chaoyang-Linghai high-speed railway in northeast China's Liaoning Province. The 107-kilometer Chaoyang-Linghai high-speed railway which connects Chaoyang and Linghai in Liaoning Province was officially put into operation Tuesday.


Chaoyang-Linghai high-speed railway officially put into operation - Xinhua | English.news.cn


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## gao7

*Deqing tunnel of Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway drilled through







*
























> Aerial photo taken on Aug. 2, 2021 shows an external view of the Deqing tunnel of the Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway in Hechi. The 6.61-km-long Deqing tunnel was drilled through on Tuesday. It is a critical control project in the construction of the Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway, which is expected to put into operation by the end of 2023.


Deqing tunnel of Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway drilled through - Xinhua | English.news.cn


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## lawdefender

The first private owned high-speed rail project starts static acceptance

The Hangzhou-Shaoxing-Taizhou high-speed railway is an important part of the national coastal railway fast passenger transport corridor, connecting Hangzhou, Shaoxing and Taizhou, with a design speed of 350 kilometers per hour and a total length of about 266.9 kilometers.

The Hangzhou-Shaoxing-Taizhou Railway is one of the first eight social capital investment railway demonstration projects in China. It is also the first private-owned high-speed railway in China. Private capital accounts for 51%.

The project adopts the "build-own-operate-transfer" model. The government authorizes the project company to be responsible for investment, construction, operation, maintenance, and transfer. After the expiration of the operation period, the project company transfers all project assets to the government free of charge. The project cooperation period is 34 years, of which the construction period is 4 years and the operation period is 30 years.


What is static acceptance?

Static acceptance refers to the process of inspecting the construction project to confirm whether the project is completed according to the design and the quality is qualified, whether the system equipment has been installed and debugged. The content of the acceptance includes professional on-site acceptance and static integrated system acceptance. After the completion of the acceptance, it will be dynamic Inspection, joint commissioning, joint test and operation test to prepare for the opening and operation of the line.







我国首条民营控股高铁项目开始静态验收-中国科技网


我国首条民营控股高铁项目开始静态验收




www.stdaily.com


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## lawdefender

At 7:50 on August 15th, the first CR400BF-G Fuxing EMU at the Mujia High-speed Rail Joint Commissioning and Testing Site slowly drove out of Mudanjiang Station. This is the first time the Fuxing EMU participated in the Mujia High-speed Railway Joint Commissioning. The test is also the first test run of the Fuxing Alpine EMU on the easternmost Alpine high-speed rail line in China.

Mujia High-speed Railway is located in the eastern part of Heilongjiang Province, passing through Mudanjiang City, Jixi City, Qitaihe City, Shuangyashan City, Jiamusi City and other places along the line. The total length of the line is more than 370 kilometers, and the design speed is 250 kilometers per hour. It is the longest mileage in Heilongjiang Province. Long high-speed rail line. According to the Mujia High-speed Rail Joint Commissioning and Test Headquarters, the 350 km/h Fuxing high-cold EMU used for this test run has the “stunning skills” that can withstand low temperatures, ice and snow, and can operate in an environment of minus 40 degrees Celsius.






复兴号高寒动车组首次试跑中国最东端高铁 _ 经济参考网 _ 新华社《经济参考报》官方网站







www.jjckb.cn


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## lawdefender

The following HSR will be opened to public at the end of 2021


1. Mujia High Speed Rail

From July 31st, the Mujia high-speed rail joint commissioning test will enter the signal system test stage. The relevant test will last for nearly a month. After the signal system test is completed, it will be officially transferred to the trial operation stage, laying the foundation for the opening and operating conditions during the year.

Mujia High-speed Railway is located in the eastern part of Heilongjiang, passing through Mudanjiang City, Linkou County, Jixi City, Qitaihe City, Huanan County, Shuangyashan City and Jiamusi City. The total length of the line is 371.6 kilometers and the design speed is 250 kilometers per hour.

It is a key railway project in the national "13th Five-Year Plan" and "Medium and Long-term Railway Network Planning". After the opening of the Mujia High-speed Railway, it will form the Eastern Heilongjiang Express Rail Link with the Ha-Mu High-speed Railway and the Ha-Jia Railway. The running time of the Mudanjiang-Jiamusi train will be shortened from the current 7 hours to less than 2 hours, and all cities along the line will be included in Harbin. In the two-hour and three-hour economic circle, eight prefecture-level cities in the province will realize high-speed rail connections.

2. Dunbai High Speed Rail

The Dunbai High-speed Railway is located in the Yanbian Korean Autonomous Prefecture in Jilin Province and is an important part of my country's "eight vertical and eight horizontal" high-speed railway network. The line starts from Dunhua City, passes through Antu County, and ends at Erdaobaihe Town. It has a total length of 113 kilometers and a design speed of 250 kilometers per hour. It has 4 stations in Changbai Mountain, Yongqing, Dunhua South, and Dunhua (existing). The first high-speed railway to Changbai Mountain, a famous tourist attraction, is also the most convenient railway transportation route to Changbai Mountain from Jilin, Changchun and the north.

At present, the Dunbai High-speed Railway has entered the static acceptance stage and is expected to be fully opened within this year. After the line is connected with the Beijing-Harbin High-speed Railway, a fast passenger transport network from Northeast China to all parts of the country will be formed.

3. Anjiu High Speed Rail

On August 4, the callback construction of the Wujiu Passenger Dedicated Main Line at Lushan Station of the Anjiu High-speed Railway was successfully completed, creating important conditions for the Anjiu High-speed Railway to carry out joint commissioning and joint trials and open and operate on schedule. On August 10th, the Anqing-Huangmei section of the Anjiu high-speed railway started static acceptance, marking that this section of the line has officially entered the completion acceptance stage.

The Anjiu high-speed railway starts from Anqing West Station in Anhui in the north and ends at Lushan Station in Jiangxi in the south. The main line is 198 kilometers long and has a design speed of 350 kilometers per hour. Taiwan) an important part of the channel. After the completion of this high-speed railway, an east-west large capacity, fast and convenient passenger transport corridor will be added between the east China region along the Yangtze River and Central China, South China, and Southwest China.

4. Zhang Jihuai High Speed Rail

On the morning of August 6, the Zhangjihuai High-speed Railway officially launched the joint debugging and joint test, and the countdown was counted down to the opening of the whole line.

The main line of Zhangjihuai high-speed railway is 246.9 kilometers long and has a design speed of 350 kilometers per hour. The line starts from Zhangjiajie City in the north, passes through Jishou City in Xiangxi Tujia and Miao Autonomous Prefecture, and connects to Huaihua City in the south. Along the line there are 7 passenger stations in Zhangjiajie West, Furong Town, Guzhang West, Jishou East, Phoenix Ancient City, Mayang West, and Huaihua South Station. It connects with Qianzhang-Chang Railway at Zhangjiajie West Station, and connects with Shanghai-Kunming High-speed Railway and Huaishoheng Railway at Huaihua South Station.

After this line is completed and opened to traffic, the train running time from Huaihua to Zhangjiajie will be greatly shortened, which is of great significance for improving the traffic conditions along the line, promoting the development of tourism resources, assisting rural revitalization, and promoting the economic and social development of the central and western regions. By then, the Tujia and Miao Autonomous Prefecture of Xiangxi will end its history of not being able to connect to high-speed rail, and will be connected to the national high-speed rail network.

5. Ganshen High Speed Rail

Recently, the Ganshen high-speed rail is undergoing fine-tuning of its tracks in an orderly manner, and will soon start a joint test of the entire line, laying the foundation for the opening of operations at the end of this year.

The Ganshen high-speed railway is an important part of the China-Beijing-Hong Kong channel of my country's "eight vertical and eight horizontal" high-speed railway network. The line runs through the five cities of Ganzhou, Heyuan, Huizhou, Dongguan and Shenzhen in Jiangxi and Guangdong. It is about 297 kilometers long and has a design top speed of 350 kilometers per hour.

The Ganshen high-speed rail is expected to be put into operation at the end of 2021. After the opening to traffic, the running time of the trains between Jiangxi and Shenzhen will be reduced from about 7 hours to about 2 hours, which will promote the deep integration of the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area and play a leading role in the radiation of the Pearl River Delta region.




这些铁路预计今年内开通！看一看你最期待哪条？_中国国情_中国网


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## NCT

Zhangjihuai should help enormously. Last time I went to Zhangjiajie from Hangzhou with a few friends we had to fly. From next year it'll just be one change at Huaihua South. Makes Fenghuang much more accessible too.


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## foxmulder

Never bored to look into CRH construction pictures, love them


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## 欲望的火花

It’s been a long time since I came to the forum, hurry up and write a reply.


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## gao7

*Construction of train depot breaks ground in Changsha*

















> A ceremony is held to kick off the construction of a bullet train operation depot for the Changde-Yiyang-Changsha High-Speed Railway in Changsha, Central China's Hunan province, on Aug 18, 2021. The high-speed railway has a length of 157 kilometers, and a designed speed of 350 kilometers per hour.


Construction of train depot breaks ground in Changsha


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## Zaz965

high speed train depot wuhan


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## chornedsnorkack

lawdefender said:


> The following HSR will be opened to public at the end of 2021
> 
> 3. Anjiu High Speed Rail
> 
> On August 4, the callback construction of the Wujiu Passenger Dedicated Main Line at Lushan Station of the Anjiu High-speed Railway was successfully completed, creating important conditions for the Anjiu High-speed Railway to carry out joint commissioning and joint trials and open and operate on schedule. On August 10th, the Anqing-Huangmei section of the Anjiu high-speed railway started static acceptance, marking that this section of the line has officially entered the completion acceptance stage.
> 
> The Anjiu high-speed railway starts from Anqing West Station in Anhui in the north and ends at Lushan Station in Jiangxi in the south. The main line is 198 kilometers long and has a design speed of 350 kilometers per hour. Taiwan) an important part of the channel. After the completion of this high-speed railway, an east-west large capacity, fast and convenient passenger transport corridor will be added between the east China region along the Yangtze River and Central China, South China, and Southwest China.


Only east-west?
How, if at all, is Anqing connected by HSR to Hefei, Bengbu and beyond to Beijing?
Given that Jiujiang-Nanchang is opened some time ago, can HSR trains go Nanchang-Jiujiang-Anqing-Hefei-Beijing?



lawdefender said:


> 5. Ganshen High Speed Rail
> 
> Recently, the Ganshen high-speed rail is undergoing fine-tuning of its tracks in an orderly manner, and will soon start a joint test of the entire line, laying the foundation for the opening of operations at the end of this year.
> 
> The Ganshen high-speed railway is an important part of the China-Beijing-Hong Kong channel of my country's "eight vertical and eight horizontal" high-speed railway network. The line runs through the five cities of Ganzhou, Heyuan, Huizhou, Dongguan and Shenzhen in Jiangxi and Guangdong. It is about 297 kilometers long and has a design top speed of 350 kilometers per hour.
> 
> The Ganshen high-speed rail is expected to be put into operation at the end of 2021. After the opening to traffic, the running time of the trains between Jiangxi and Shenzhen will be reduced from about 7 hours to about 2 hours, which will promote the deep integration of the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area and play a leading role in the radiation of the Pearl River Delta region.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 这些铁路预计今年内开通！看一看你最期待哪条？_中国国情_中国网


The trip time of D727, Ganzhou-Shenzhen, is already 5:35, not 7 hours. Once both Shenzhen-Ganzhou and Lushan-Anqing open, what will be trip time Shenzhen-Beijing via Ganzhou and Anqing?


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## lawdefender

chornedsnorkack said:


> Only east-west?
> How, if at all, is Anqing connected by HSR to Hefei, Bengbu and beyond to Beijing?
> Given that Jiujiang-Nanchang is opened some time ago, can HSR trains go Nanchang-Jiujiang-Anqing-Hefei-Beijing?
> 
> 
> The trip time of D727, Ganzhou-Shenzhen, is already 5:35, not 7 hours. Once both Shenzhen-Ganzhou and Lushan-Anqing open, what will be trip time Shenzhen-Beijing via Ganzhou and Anqing?


Any new HSR trains service based on new opened lines will be decided by National Railway Group.

We had to wait and see.


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## lawdefender

Data from the Ministry of Transport of China shows: by the end of 2020

1. Railway operating mileage reached 146,000 kilometers,

2. Among them, the operating mileage of high-speed railways is 38,000 kilometers, and the coverage rate of high-speed railways in cities with a population of more than one million exceeds 95%;

3. The national railway electrification rate reached 74.9%.







交通运输部：中国高速公路通车里程居世界第一-中新网


(记者 刘亮)中国交通运输部24日披露的数据显示，截至2020年底，中国高速公路通车里程达16.10万公里，居世界第一。在综合立体交通网方面，目前，中国以铁路为主干、以公路为基础、水运和民航比较优势充分发挥的国家综合立体交通网日益完善。



www.chinanews.com


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## cheehg

Finished sections of lines in 8x8 plan
Part 3 North-South 









3.1 Yuanping-Xi'an HSR
3.2 XI'an-Chengdu HSR
3.3 Chengdu-Guiyang HSR
3.4 Huiyang-Guangzhou HSR
3.5 Beijing-Xiong'an Intercity
3.6 Beijing-Hongkong HSR
3.7 Hefei-Fuzhou HSR

Part 4 West-East 









4.1 Mudanjiang-Suifenghe line 
4.2 Mudanjiang-Harbin HSR
4.3 Harbin-Qiqihar HSR
4.4 Beijing-Baotou HSR
4.5 Yinchuan-Wuzhong HSR
4.6 Lanzhou-Zhongchuan airport HSR
4.7 Zhuangzhou-Longyan PDL
4.8 Ganzhou-Longyan PDL
4.9 Qianjiang-Changde PDL
4.10 Nanning-Guangzhou PDL
4.11 Naning-Kunming PDL


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## cheehg

other lines (I think some lines are part of 8x8 plan):
North China:








5.1 Beijing-Tianjin Intercity HSR
5.2 Tianjin-Qinhuangdao HSR
5.3 Tianjin-Pazhou PDL
5.4 Pazhou-Xushui line
5.5 Yanqing-Badaling HSR (Branch of Beijing-Baotou HSR)
5.6 Xiahuayuan-Chongli HSR (Branch of Beijing-Baotou HSR, to 2022 Beijing WO Ski sites)
5.7 Datong-Zhangjiakou HSR
5.8 Zengzhou-Taiyuan HSR
5.9 sections of Beijing-Harbin line (Beijing-Qinhuangdao line (160km/h) and Qinhuangdao-Shenyang PDL)
5.10 Yinkou-Panjin HSR
5.11 Shenyan-Dalian HSR
5.12 Shenyan-Dandong HSR
5.13 Dalian-Dandong line
5.14 Xinming-Tongliao HSR (branch of Beijing-Harbin HSR)
5.15 Kazuo-Chifeng HSR (branch of Beijing-Harbin HSR)
5.16 Changchun-Yunchun Intercity HSR
5.17 Harbin-Jiamushi line 

East China (North of The River):









6.1 Qingdao-Rongcheng intercity HSR
6.2 Weifang-Laixi HSR
6.3 Qingdao-yancheng Line
6.4 Yancheng-Nantong HSR
6.5 Shanghai - Nantong line
6.6 Xuzhou-Yancheng HSR
6.7 Lianyungang-Zhenjiang HSR
6.8 Nanjing-Nantong line
6.9 Rizhao-Lankao HSR
6.10 Huaibei-Xiaoxian line (connect line to Xuzhou-Lanzhou HSR)
6.11 Hefei-Bengbu HSR

East China (South of The River):









7.1 Nanjing-Anqing Intercity HSR
7.2 Nnajing-hangzhou HSR
7.3 Hefei-Hangzhou HSR
7.4 Hangzhou-Nanchang HSR
7.5 Jinhua-Wenzhou line
7.6 Quzhou-Jiujiang line
7.7 Nanchang-Jiujiang Intercity HSR
7.8 Nanchang-Fuzhou line
7.9 Yongtai-Putian line
7.10 Nanping-Longyan line
7.11 Fuzhou-Pingtan line

Center China:









8.1 Zhengzhou-Kaifeng Intercity
8.2 Zhengzhou-Airport intercity
8.3 Zhengzhou-Chongqing HSR (zhengshou-Xiangyang)
8.4 Zhengzhou-Fuyang HSR
8.5 Wuhan-Jiujiang HSR
8.6 Wuhan-Xianning intercity HSR
8.7 Wuhan-Huanggang intercity HSR
8.9 Wuhan-Xiaogan Intercity HSR
8.10 Wuhan-Xi'an HSR (Xiaogan-Shiyan)
8.11 Changsha-Zhuzhou intercity (160km/h)
8.12 Muyun-Xiangtan intercity (160km/h)
8.13 Loudi-Shaoyang line
8.14 Huaihua-Hengyang line
8.15 Hengyang-Liuzhou PDL

South China:










9.1 Guangzhou-Shenzhen I II line (160km/H)
9.2 Guangzhou-Shenzhen intercity (via Shenzhen airport)
9.3 Guangzhou-Zhuhai intercity
9.4 Zhuhai-ZH airport intercity
9.5 Xiaolan-Jiangmen intercity
9.6 Shenzhen-Zhanjiang line (Jiangmen-Zhanjiang)
9.7 Meizhou-Shantou HSR
9.8 Guangzhou-Zhaoqing intercity 
9.9 Guangzhou-Huizhou intercity 
9.10 Guangzhou-Qingyuan intercity
9.11 Guangzhou east ring intercity (huadu-Baiyun airport)
9.12 Hainan Ring HSR (Haikou-Sanyan-Haikou)
9.13 Liuzhou-Nanning HSR
9.14 Nanning-Beihai HSR
9.15 Qingzhou-Fangchenggang line
9.16 Taiwan HSR

West China:









10.1 Chengdu-Chongqing HSR
10.2 Chongqing-Wanzhou Intercity HSR
10.3 Chengdu-Dujiangyan intercity
10.4 Shima-Litui Park (branch of CD-DJY intercity)
10.5 Pidu-Pengzhou (branch of CD-DJY intercity)
10.6 Chengdu-Puzhou intercity
10.7 Leshan-Emeishan HSR
10.8 Lanzhou-Chongqing line section of Chongqing-Guangyuan
10.9 Chongqing-Guiyang PDL
10.10 Neijiang-Zigong-Luzhou HSR
10.11 Tongren-Yuping HSR
10.12 Guiyang-Kaiyang intercity
10.13 Anshun-Liupanshui HSR
10.14 Kunming-Yuxi PDL
10.15 Kunming-Chusiong PDL
10.16 Chuxiong-Dali PDL
10.17 Xi'an-Yinchuan HSR


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## TER200

If my reading is good, the colmumns in the middle are for different dates ? 210718 = 18h july 2021, etc ?
Then the blue column is the difference between the last period and the previous one, apparently.

So there are a handful of lines with more than 100 train pairs per day, and up to 150 one some parts of the Beijing-Shanghai line.


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## DarkShark

Does e.g. 150 "pairs of train" mean there are each 150 journeys in each direction of the railway line per day?


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## cheehg

TER200 said:


> If my reading is good, the colmumns in the middle are for different dates ? 210718 = 18h july 2021, etc ?
> Then the blue column is the difference between the last period and the previous one, apparently.
> 
> So there are a handful of lines with more than 100 train pairs per day, and up to 150 one some parts of the Beijing-Shanghai line.


yes you are right. It has the info from 2015-2021. Many lines started with very small numbers of trains but increased to more.


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## cheehg

DarkShark said:


> Does e.g. 150 "pairs of train" mean there are each 150 journeys in each direction of the railway line per day?


Yes. 150 each direction per day. The min. headway in CR is 4 mins in departure but 3 mins on the line. It means when a train follows a passing train, it only needs to wait for 3 mins.


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## gao7

Mudanjiang-Jiamusi
*China's easternmost high-speed railway starts operation*
























> A train runs on the Mudanjiang-Jiamusi Railway in northeast China's Heilongjiang Province, Dec. 6, 2021. The country's easternmost high-speed railway, linking the cities of Mudanjiang and Jiamusi in Heilongjiang Province, started operation on Monday, stretching 372 km in the frigid zone.


China's easternmost high-speed railway starts operation


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## lawdefender

The Ganzhou-Shenzhen high-speed rail opens tomorrow! The fastest train from Ganzhou to Shenzhen is 1 hour 49 minutes, and the fare is 264 yuan

The reporter learned from China National Railway Group Co., Ltd. that the Ganzhou-Shenzhen section of the Beijing-Hong Kong high-speed rail (hereinafter referred to as the Beijing-Hong Kong high-speed rail Ganshen section) will be opened on December 10, 2021. The fastest travel times from Nanchang and Ganzhou to Shenzhen are respectively Compressed from 4 hours 42 minutes, 5 hours 32 minutes to 3 hours 30 minutes, 1 hour 49 minutes,

According to the reporter's query, as of the time of writing at 12:00 noon, the 12306 website can already buy train tickets from Ganzhou to Shenzhen. The second-class ticket from Ganzhou west to Shenzhen North is 264 yuan, the first-class seat is 422 yuan, and the business seat is 924 yuan; the Nanchang west to Shenzhen North second-class seat is 482.5 yuan, the first-class seat is 772 yuan, and the business seat is 1579 yuan.

After the opening of the Ganshen high-speed rail to traffic, the goal of “connecting high-speed rail from city to city” in Guangdong Province will be achieved. Four stations in Heyuan, Hepingbei, Longchuan West, Heyuanbei, and Heyuan East, opened and operated simultaneously. According to the information on the 12306 website, the fares for the second-class seats in Heping North, West Longchuan, Heyuan North, Heyuan East to Shenzhen North are 166 yuan, 132 yuan, 115 yuan, and 93 yuan respectively.






赣深高铁明日开通！赣州至深圳最快1小时49分钟 ，票价264元_高铁赣_运营_河源


记者今日从中国国家铁路集团有限公司获悉，京港高铁赣州至深圳段（以下简称京港高铁赣深段）将于2021年12月10日开通运营，南昌、赣州至深圳的最快旅行时间分别由4小时42分、5小时32分压缩至3小时30分、1小…




www.sohu.com


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## gao7

* Ganzhou-Shenzhen high-speed railway starts operation





















*

















> SHENZHEN, Dec. 10, 2021 -- The first high-speed train leaves from Shenzhen North Station of south China's Guangdong Province to Nanchang West Station of east China's Jiangxi Province, Dec. 10, 2021. A new high-speed railway linking the city of Ganzhou in east China's Jiangxi Province and the southern metropolis of Shenzhen in Guangdong Province started official operation on Friday. The Ganzhou-Shenzhen high-speed railway, with a total length of 434 km and designed speed of 350 km per hour, shortens the existing train journey of more than five hours to one hour and 49 minutes at the top speed.


New high-speed railway to bolster travel between Ganzhou, Shenzhen


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## General Huo

chornedsnorkack said:


> How many such cities were in China, and what was the list of the under 5 % without HSR?


There are 93 cities having population over 1 million in China by 2019. Under 5% are 4 cities. They are
1. Fushun, Liaoning, won't have HSR until Shenyang-Baishan HSR built. However, Fushun is very close to Shenyang.
2. Jining, Shandong, will have HSR when Rizhao-Lankao HSR open this year. Qufu as part of Jining has HSR already.
3. Yibin 4. Zigong, both in Sichuan, both had HSR in the middle of 2021 when Chengdu-Zigong-Yibin HSR opened.


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## cheehg

General Huo said:


> There are 93 cities having population over 1 million in China by 2019. Under 5% are 4 cities. They are
> 1. Fushun, Liaoning, won't have HSR until Shenyang-Baishan HSR built. However, Fushun is very close to Shenyang.
> 2. Jining, Shandong, will have HSR when Rizhao-Lankao HSR open this year. Qufu as part of Jining has HSR already.
> 3. Yibin 4. Zigong, both in Sichuan, both had HSR in the middle of 2021 when Chengdu-Zigong-Yibin HSR opened.


Yibin has Chengdu-Guiyang HSR already. I think other big cities (not over million) are Yuling, Liaocheng, Dazhou,Ankang,Yan'an after 2021.


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## General Huo

cheehg said:


> Yibin has Chengdu-Guiyang HSR already. I think other big cities (not over million) are Yuling, Liaocheng, Dazhou,Ankang,Yan'an after 2021.


It should be Luzhou (1.7m pop) in Sichuan. Its HSR opened in middle of 2021.

Fushun


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## lawdefender

The Zhangjiaji-Jishou- Huaihua high-speed railway passes through the Wuling mountainous area and multiple water systems. There are many nature reserves and scenic spots along the way. The mountainous climate is changeable and construction is difficult.

Since the start of construction in December 2016, China National Railway Group Co., Ltd. has organized participating units to overcome various difficulties, strengthen construction organization, and open up a batch of long and large tunnels such as the Jishou Tunnel, a single-hole double-track tunnel, which is 12 kilometers long. A number of key bridges such as the Youshui Bridge, an asymmetric deck concrete-filled steel tube arch bridge with a height of about 150 meters and a main span of 292 meters, have been erected to ensure the completion of the project on schedule. There are 162 newly built bridges and 118 tunnels across the line, with a total length of 223.9 kilometers, accounting for 90.7% of the total length of the line, and less than 10% of the line on flat ground.

According to statistics from the Guangzhou Railway Passenger Transport Department, as of 15:00 on December 6th, 24,000 tickets had been sold, and the tickets were basically sold out during some periods. More than 8,000 passengers arrived and departed from five newly built stations, Furong Town Station, Guzhang West Station, Jishou East Station, Fenghuang Ancient City Station, and Mayang West Station.


















































“湘西最美高铁”通车受热捧！5.5小时广州南直达张家界！


----------



## foxmulder

lawdefender said:


> ... There are 162 newly built bridges and 118 tunnels across the line, with a total length of 223.9 kilometers, accounting for *90.7% *of the total length of the line, and less than 10% of the line on flat ground.
> ...


That is incredible. Amazing.


----------



## kunming tiger

Similar stats can be seen across the border, it's the prevailing geography in that region. Nevertheless it's a tremendous feat of engineering to say the least.


----------



## cheehg

General Huo said:


> It should be Luzhou (1.7m pop) in Sichuan. Its HSR opened in middle of 2021.
> 
> Fushun


On this list, only Foshun, Luzhou and Dazhou don't have HSR line yet.


----------



## General Huo

cheehg said:


> On this list, only Foshun, Luzhou and Dazhou don't have HSR line yet.


Luzhou has HSR already this year, opened in July, 2021
绵泸高铁内自泸段线路全长约130公里，设计速度为250km/h，*共设内江北、内江东、白马北、自贡、富顺、泸县、泸州7个车站*，除内江北为既有车站外，其他均为新建车站。 

Dazhou has Chengdu-Suining-Dazhou 200km/h rail, which can be called HSR.


----------



## cheehg

foxmulder said:


> That is incredible. Amazing.


New railways in China use viaducts to pass the flat land, so only on the open cuts between montains and flat lands they lay the track on the ground. You can see it in this picture. From left, it is an open cut and the a small tunnel, then viaduct rightway, and an open cut to connect another tunnel.


----------



## cheehg

General Huo said:


> Luzhou has HSR already this year, opened in July, 2021
> 绵泸高铁内自泸段线路全长约130公里，设计速度为250km/h，*共设内江北、内江东、白马北、自贡、富顺、泸县、泸州7个车站*，除内江北为既有车站外，其他均为新建车站。
> 
> Dazhou has Chengdu-Suining-Dazhou 200km/h rail, which can be called HSR.


this line is already limited to 160km/h becasue there are freight trains on the line. Only CR200J and other loco hauled trains on this line now.


----------



## CaliforniaJones

I saw it on Twitter.


----------



## cheehg

CaliforniaJones said:


> I saw it on Twitter.


Those two should not be compared. The 2020 map includes all the railways instead of just HSR. But it is true more than 30k kms HSR were built during last 12 years.


----------



## kunming tiger

cheehg said:


> Those two should not be compared. The 2020 map includes all the railways instead of just HSR. But it is true more than 30k kms HSR were built during last 12 years.


I am afraid you are right that map includes both HSR and MSR .


----------



## Arnorian

cheehg said:


> Those two should not be compared. The 2020 map includes all the railways instead of just HSR. But it is true more than 30k kms HSR were built during last 12 years.


Just ignore the gray lines.


----------



## gao7

*Huzhou-Hangzhou high-speed railway under construction*









> Aerial photo taken on Dec. 16, 2021 shows workers of the China Railway No.4 Engineering Group laying the track of the Huzhou-Hangzhou high-speed railway in Yuhang District, Hangzhou City of east China's Zhejiang Province. The construction of Huzhou-Hangzhou high-speed railway with designed speed of 350 kilometers per hour officially entered track-laying phase here Thursday. The line, which connects cities of Huzhou and Hangzhou, both in Zhejiang, is also a key auxiliary project to the 19th Asian Games Hangzhou 2022. (Huang Zongzhi)


Huzhou-Hangzhou high-speed railway under construction


----------



## gao7

*Construction of Xi'an-Shiyan high-speed railway kicks off*










> The commencement ceremony of the Xi'an-Shiyan high-speed railway is held in Shiyan, Hubei Province, Dec. 15, 2021.



























> Photo taken on Dec. 15, 2021 shows the construction site of the Xi'an-Shiyan high-speed railway in Shiyan, central China's Hubei Province. Construction of the Xi'an-Shiyan high-speed railway, linking Xi'an City in northwest China's Shaanxi Province and Shiyan City in central China's Hubei Province, kicked off on Wednesday. The 255.76-km-long railway, with a designed speed of 350 kilometers per hour, is expected to be completed and put into operation in 2026.


 Construction of Xi'an-Shiyan high-speed railway kicks off


----------



## WuhanMilitaryOlympics19

Any news about the opening of the Zhengzhou - Wanzhou HSR Line?


----------



## Zaz965

oh mother of god, what huge network in less than 20 years


----------



## WuhanMilitaryOlympics19

The map on Wikipedia is not updated for years.. Now anyway something has changed. Taiwan is not on the map



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Rail_map_of_China_%28high_speed_highlighted%29_WP.svg/1024px-Rail_map_of_China_%28high_speed_highlighted%29_WP.svg.png



What a shame


----------



## tjrgx

High-speed train reaches Changbai Mountains in northeast China


High-speed train reaches Changbai Mountains in northeast China-



english.news.cn




CHANGCHUN, Dec. 24 (Xinhua) -- A new high-speed railway line reaching the foot of the Changbai Mountains in northeast China's Jilin Province was put into operation on Friday.

At 7:35 a.m., a bullet train numbered G9127 departed from the Changchun railway station in the provincial capital Changchun for the station of Changbaishan, or Changbai Mountains, marking the start of official operations of the railway line.

The fastest train takes passengers only two hours and 18 minutes to travel from Changchun to the newly-built Changbaishan station more than 300 km away.

The railway, with a designed speed of 250 km per hour, will shorten the travel time between Beijing and Changbai Mountains to eight hours.

"It's a high-speed railway station with a great scenic view. Standing in the waiting hall, I can see the vast primeval forest," said Wang Peng, a tourist from Changchun after getting off at the Changbaishan station.

Changbai Mountain resort, located in southeastern Jilin, is famous for the stunning crater lake of Tianchi, primeval forests, and several renowned ski fields. Last year, the resort received over 700,000 tourists.

Geng Deyong, a tourism official with the management committee for the mountain protection and development, said the new high-speed railway line will attract more tourists, with some 10 million visitors expected every year.


----------



## tjrgx

WuhanMilitaryOlympics19 said:


> Any news about the opening of the Zhengzhou - Wanzhou HSR Line?


In May 2022


----------



## General Huo

Lines in red are those opened in Dec 2021


----------



## tjrgx

New high-speed railway line opens in east China


New high-speed railway line opens in east China-



www.news.cn




JINAN, Dec. 26 (Xinhua) -- A new high-speed railway section went operational on Sunday in east China's Shandong Province, bringing the city of Heze into the country's high-speed rail network.

The 199-km new rail section connects the city of Qufu and Zhuangzhai Township, Heze's Caoxian County, said the China Railway Jinan Group Co., Ltd.

The fastest train takes passengers only one hour and 23 minutes from Heze to the provincial capital Jinan and less than three hours to Beijing.

The newly opened section is part of the high-speed railway between Shandong's Rizhao City and Lankao, Henan Province, with a designed train speed of 350 km per hour.


----------



## gao7

* Zhengzhou-Wanzhou high-speed railway under construction*

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474303848479137793


----------



## YKC

*Shanghai-Shenzhen rail trip cut to less than 7 hours*

With the updating of the train timetable on 10th January 2022, the shortest journey time between Shanghai and Shenzhen will be reduced to six hours and 50 minutes. To my knowledge, the current shortest journey time takes 10h 28 mins (night trains).

I think this will make a huge impact for millions of people including myself (I have recently relocated to HK). Although obviously flight time is still considerably shorter, I personally take into account the overall door-to-door time, making it a competitive and more comfortable choice. Although the night trains are still great for anyone wanting to be efficient and take advantage of sleeping on the trains, ready for the next day.

Shanghai-Shenzhen rail trip cut to less than 7 hours


----------



## foxmulder

YKC said:


> *Shanghai-Shenzhen rail trip cut to less than 7 hours*
> 
> With the updating of the train timetable on 10th January 2022, the shortest journey time between Shanghai and Shenzhen will be reduced to six hours and 50 minutes. To my knowledge, the current shortest journey time takes 10h 28 mins (night trains).
> 
> I think this will make a huge impact for millions of people including myself (I have recently relocated to HK). Although obviously flight time is still considerably shorter, I personally take into account the overall door-to-door time, making it a competitive and more comfortable choice. Although the night trains are still great for anyone wanting to be efficient and take advantage of sleeping on the trains, ready for the next day.
> 
> Shanghai-Shenzhen rail trip cut to less than 7 hours


No reason to take planes in _any_ domestic routes for me


----------



## gao7

Anqing-Jiujiang
*New high-speed railway line operational in east China*












































> Aerial photo taken on Dec. 30, 2021 shows a train of the Anqing-Jiujiang high-speed railway pulling out of the Huangmei East Railway Station in Huangmei County, Hubei Province. A new high-speed railway section linking Anqing City in Anhui Province, with Jiujiang City in Jiangxi Province began operation Thursday. The 176-km line, with seven stations along its route, will reduce travel time between Anhui's capital Hefei and Jiangxi's capital Nanchang to two hours and 22 minutes, according to China Railway Shanghai Group Co., Ltd. The Anqing-Jiujiang high-speed railway has a designed speed of 350 km per hour and is connected to China's vertical artery of the Beijing-Hong Kong Railway.


New high-speed railway line operational in east China


----------



## gao7

*High-speed rail network expands past 40,000 km*








The Anqing-Jiujiang section of the planned Beijing-Hong Kong high-speed railway started operation on Thursday, bringing the total length of high-speed railway network in China to more than 40,000 kilometers-equivalent to the length of the equator.

Linking Anqing in Anhui province with Jiujiang in Jiangxi province, the new section started trial runs on Dec 1.

The 176-km line, with seven stations along its route, will reduce travel time between Anhui's capital Hefei and Jiangxi's capital Nanchang to two hours and 22 minutes, according to China Railway Shanghai Group.

The Anqing-Jiujiang high-speed railway has a design speed of 350 km per hour and is a section of China's planned vertical artery of the Beijing-Hong Kong high-speed railway.

There were five pairs of trains plying the railway on its first day of operation, and the number will increase to 24 pairs per day starting Jan 10.

The new line passes populated areas with abundant tourism resources, including Lushan Mountain in Jiujiang, and will greatly facilitate the travel of people along the route, said the company.

With the operation of the new section, the country's total railway network stretches more than 150,000 km.

China has more high-speed rail tracks than anywhere else in the world. It has built a high-speed railway network accounting for nearly 70 percent of the high-speed railway network in the world.

About 6.5 million passenger trips were handled per day by the high-speed railway network in 2019, while the number was 350,000 in 2008. Last year, 3.58 billion metric tons of cargo were transported via railway, 920 million tons more than in 2016.

The country's rapidly expanding transport network offers faster, cheaper, as well as more convenient and pleasant journeys, and plays a crucial role in social and economic development.

Transport Minister Li Xiaopeng said earlier that the railway network has reached 99 percent of the cities with a population of more than 200,000 while about 95 percent of cities with populations of more than 1 million have access to the high-speed railway network.

The network will continue to expand, according to a guideline released by several departments in 2016, which announced the building of a high-speed network of eight major north-south and eight east-west high-speed railway lines.

Construction is currently underway to complete the grid.

According to guidelines released by the China State Railway Group earlier this year, a total of 70,000 km of high-speed rail lines will be built by 2035, to reach every area that has a population of more than 500,000.


High-speed rail network expands past 40,000 km


----------



## Yellow Fever




----------



## WuhanMilitaryOlympics19

probably it's time to update the map now https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#/media/File:Rail_map_of_China_(high_speed_highlighted)_WP.svg


----------



## General Huo

On Dec 25, 2021, the TBM for Zhujiangkou (Pearl River Estuary) Tunnel of Shenzhen-Jiangmen High Speed Rail (East part of Shenzhen-Zhanjiang High Speed Rail) started digging. This tunnel is the deepest under water tunnel in China, 115 meters under the water. The tunnel is 13.69 km long and will take 56 months to complete.






水下115米穿越珠江入海口！珠江口隧道“大湾区号”盾构始发_广州日报大洋网


12月25日，经过中铁隧道局建设者4个月的艰苦奋战，应用于我国最深海底隧道——深江铁路珠江口隧道的“大湾区号”盾构机在广州南沙成功始发，正式开启水下115米穿越珠江入海口的施工挑战。



news.dayoo.com


----------



## Short

General Huo said:


> On Dec 25, 2021, the TBM for Zhujiangkou (Pearl River Estuary) Tunnel of Shenzhen-Jiangmen High Speed Rail (East part of Shenzhen-Zhanjiang High Speed Rail) started digging. This tunnel is the deepest under water tunnel in China, 115 meters under the water. The tunnel is 13.69 km long and will take 56 months to complete.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 水下115米穿越珠江入海口！珠江口隧道“大湾区号”盾构始发_广州日报大洋网
> 
> 
> 12月25日，经过中铁隧道局建设者4个月的艰苦奋战，应用于我国最深海底隧道——深江铁路珠江口隧道的“大湾区号”盾构机在广州南沙成功始发，正式开启水下115米穿越珠江入海口的施工挑战。
> 
> 
> 
> news.dayoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 2619839
> 
> 
> View attachment 2619838
> 
> 
> View attachment 2619828
> 
> View attachment 2619830
> 
> View attachment 2619831
> 
> View attachment 2619837


How many TBMs are in operation on this line? With the landside route under Dongguan and past Shenzhen Airport, the Y-junction is interesting. I thought this line was only to travel through Bao'an to Shenzhen North station but there is another route through Nanshan but then misses Futian station??? The pictures are too low-res to make out the intent and read the notes.


----------



## tjrgx

China approves two new railway projects


China approves two new railway projects-



english.news.cn




BEIJING, Jan. 15 (Xinhua) -- China's top economic planner has approved two railway projects, with a combined investment of 238.26 billion yuan (about 37.4 billion U.S. dollars).

The projects include one high-speed rail track connecting north China's Tianjin and Weifang in east China, and one linking Xi'an in the northwest and Chongqing in the southwest, according to the National Development and Reform Commission.

Earlier data showed a total of 4,208 kilometers of new rail lines were put into service in 2021, including 2,168 kilometers of high-speed tracks.


----------



## foxmulder

Xi'an-Chongqing was a route I was expecting for along time.


----------



## hkskyline

*China plans expansion of high-speed railway equal to combined length of next 5 largest countries by network size by 2025 *
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
Jan 20, 2022

China will extend its high-speed rail line nearly 32 per cent by 2025, roughly equal to the combined length of the next five largest countries by network size, amid an emerging consensus that Beijing is again leaning on infrastructure investment to curb an economic slowdown.

The country also plans to widen use of its Beidou satellite navigation system at home and abroad, while tightening control of transport data, as technological self-reliance and national security have become government work priorities.

China, which has the world’s largest high-speed railway network, will expand its length to 50,000km by 2025, 12,000km longer than the end of 2020, according to the new five-year transport plan issued on Tuesday by the State Council, the country’s cabinet.

More : China to boost economy with 12,000km expansion of high-speed railway by 2025


----------



## General Huo

China has over 40,000 kilometers high speed rail. Here are some opened in 2021


----------



## General Huo

*China's tailor-made high-speed train for the 2022 Beijing Winter Olympics*


----------



## General Huo

*The world's first 5G+4K/8K+AI live-streaming studio on high-speed train*


----------



## paulps99

General Huo said:


> *The world's first 5G+4K/8K+AI live-streaming studio on high-speed train*


I'm getting confused with the speeds for genuine High Speed Rail. How much of the 40,000km is on new dedicated tracks of 250km/hr & more? Some previous maps I saw had new tracks of 200km/hr mixed up with 250km/hr + lines which may not be considered proper HSR.


----------



## 499towersofchina

Here are 6 Xigua video screenshots of the under construction Jiangyin High Speed Station on the Third Shanghai - Nanjing High Speed Line. 
The line's alignment and route is very different to that of the Shanghai - Nanjing High Speed Intercity Line and the Beijing - Shanghai Jinghu High Speed Line built in 2010 and 2011 respectively. 
Unlike the two former lines, this line avoids the core districts of the big cities located between Shanghai and Nanjing of Suzhou, Wuxi, Changzhou and Zhenjiang and instead serves their respective satellite cities and districts which are Changshu and Zhangjiagang for Suzhou, Jiangyin for Wuxi, Jintan for Changzhou and Jurong for Zhenjiang. This line is scheduled to open in 2023.

As a further note, there certainly needs to be way more updates of High Speed Rail Line construction in China on Skyscrapercity forums, especially of station construction. 
There has also been a bunch of new dedicated high speed lines that have started construction in the 8-12 months.



https://www.ixigua.com/7061887861733523998?logTag=108705d6716afe65eace


----------



## gao7

*Construction of Yukun high-speed railway in acceleration after Spring Festival holidays*























> Aerial photo taken on Feb. 9, 2022 shows the site of a grand bridge project for the Yukun high-speed railway in Chongqing Municipality. The construction of the Yukun high-speed railway linking Chongqing and Kunming, capital of southwest China's Yunnan Province, is in acceleration after the Spring Festival holidays. The railway is expected to slash the travel time between the two cities from five hours to two hours.


Construction of Yukun high-speed railway in acceleration after Spring Festival holidays


----------



## hkskyline

*China’s Fastest Olympics Entrant? Climb Aboard. *
New York Times _Excerpt_
Feb 18, 2022

We hurtle past rows of new apartment blocks on the outskirts of Beijing. The train glides into a tunnel 1,400 feet beneath the Great Wall of China, and emerges onto a plain where the 110-foot-long blades of hundreds of wind turbines tower over rows of newly planted pines.

This is the passing panorama on the high-speed train from Beijing to the Taizicheng mountain venue for the 2022 Winter Olympics, and like the Games itself, this 50-minute journey has been designed to impress with a story of China’s progress.

Journalists covering these Olympics have been escorted from hotel to media center to sports venue in special buses, taxis and train carriages, in line with China’s zero-Covid strategy of trying to eliminate infections. Unable to venture around, we peer out of sealed windows, hungry for scenes of life, especially on the train line of about 110 miles to Taizicheng, near where many of the ski events have taken place.

While China has sought to wow global audiences with its gold medal count, it has also used these Games to promote its broader economic, environmental and technological ambitions. The high-speed rail line is a centerpiece, displaying several goals that China’s Communist Party leaders have promised: urban growth, clean energy and less pollution, and — above all — impeccable, on-time order.

More : China’s Fastest Olympics Entrant? Climb Aboard.


----------



## WuhanMilitaryOlympics19

Any news about the Wanzhou - Zhengzhou high speed rail? 🙃


----------



## General Huo

start alignment joint-test 4 weeks ago. Set to open by May 1st.









郑万高铁重庆段，开启联调联试！


郑万高铁重庆段，开启联调联试！




news.sina.com.cn







WuhanMilitaryOlympics19 said:


> Any news about the Wanzhou - Zhengzhou high speed rail? 🙃


----------



## gao7

*Railway linking Beijing with Binhai New Area of Tianjin under construction*





































> People work at Zhouliang Station of a railway linking Beijing with the Binhai New Area of Tianjin, Feb. 26, 2022. With a length of about 172 kilometers and a designed speed of 350 kilometers per hour, the second intercity express railway linking Beijing with the Binhai New Area of Tianjin is expected to cut travel time between the two areas to 57 minutes. (Sun Fanyue)


Railway linking Beijing with Binhai New Area of Tianjin under construction


----------



## hkskyline

*Track-laying begins on China's first sea-crossing high-speed railway*
_Excerpt_

FUZHOU, March 18 (Xinhua) -- A pair of 500-meter steel rails were successfully laid on a concrete bed at Putian railway station Thursday in east China's Fujian Province, marking the beginning of track-laying work on the country's first sea-crossing high-speed railway.

The 277-km railway links the provincial capital of Fuzhou with the port city of Xiamen. With a designed speed of 350 km per hour, it is expected to slash the travel time between the two cities within one hour.

Using an advanced machine, workers are able to lay the left and right tracks at the same time and nearly double their efficiency, said Zhang Xiaofeng, a project manager with China Railway 11th Bureau Group Co., Ltd.

More : GLOBALink | Track-laying begins on China's first sea-crossing high-speed railway


----------



## gao7

*Tunnel under construction on Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway in Guangxi*

















> Workers work at a tunnel under construction on the Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway in Hechi City, March 30, 2022. With a length of 482 km, the railway line will cut travel time from Nanning to Guiyang from over 10 hours to 2 and a half hours. (Zhang Ailin)


Tunnel under construction on Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway in Guangxi


----------



## Scion

Short said:


> How many TBMs are in operation on this line? With the landside route under Dongguan and past Shenzhen Airport, the Y-junction is interesting. I thought this line was only to travel through Bao'an to Shenzhen North station but there is another route through Nanshan but then misses Futian station??? The pictures are too low-res to make out the intent and read the notes.


The terminus of this line at the Shenzhen side is in fact at Nanshan, the upgraded Xili Station to be precise, and not at SZ North. SZ North is already at capacity so planners generally avoid designating a new line's terminus to it. The northern "Y" branch connecting to SZ North is for more convenient rolling stock rearrangment in the network.


----------



## Zaz965

Aerial photo taken on March 30, 2022 shows a tunnel under construction on the Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway in Hechi City, south China's Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region.

With a length of 482 km, the railway line will cut travel time from Nanning to Guiyang from over 10 hours to 2 and a half hours. (Xinhua/Zhang Ailin)





Tunnel under construction on Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway in Guangxi


Tunnel under construction on Guiyang-Nanning high-speed railway in Guangxi-



english.news.cn


----------



## 499towersofchina

Hello, fans of Chinese High Speed Rail development. I'm going to start regularly posting articles, information, construction updates on China's High Speed Rail system in this thread now. It's far too dormant. There's too much that needs to be covered. I'll start with a construction updates on one future line.


----------



## 499towersofchina

Here's a construction update. Some of you probably already know that my usual way of posting updates is collecting screenshots of videos capturing construction development on Chinese streaming site, Xigua.
In this update, I've posted two screenshot images of a a high speed rail station in the city of Jinan. This is station's name is Ganggou. (港沟 is how it is written in Chinese characters). it is located in the south-western part of the city on the Jinan - Laiwu - Linyi High Speed Rail Line. The section between Jinan and Laiwu is at an advanced stage of construction as seen from these screenshots. The remaining section to the city of Linyi in South Shandong Province is still under planning.
I‘ve searched for a decent quality rendering of the station building on Baidu and Weibo but I've been successfully here.


https://www.ixigua.com/7083931766087483937?logTag=e7f39882aefb7e09148d


----------



## 499towersofchina

Also, a brand new 127km line with a designed top operational speed of 350km/h just opened in Hubei province a few days ago. This new line connects the two cities of Huanggang and Huangmei which are both located on the north banks of the Yangtze River between West of Wuhan but East of Nanjing, Wuhu and Anqing. 


http://en.hubei.gov.cn/news/newslist/202204/t20220422_4094444.shtml


----------



## 499towersofchina

Here's a brand new article on the testing being currently carried out on the virtually complete and almost ready for service Zhengzhou - Jinan and Zhengzhou - Chongqing High Speed Rail Lines.
The primary highlight is that two sets of the latest version and iteration of China's Fuxing High Speed train series models both hit a top speed of 435km/h whilst passing each other on the Zhengzhou - Jinan High speed line in prototype form. The secondary highlights are two-fold, the first is the fact that one of the prototype sets hit a speed of 403km/h whilst going through a tunnel on the New Line to Chongqing. By section of the line line from Zhengzhou to Chongqing that's opening this summer literally has 11 tunnels over 10km in length, and the longest one called the Xiaosanxia Tunnel (小三峡隧道 in Chinese characters) 18.954km long!
The second is that in a few years time, possible 2 years, there will be a pair of even faster and more aerodynamic versions of the Fuxing train series that currently go by the codenames CR450AF and CR450BF.
China's engineering keeps getting more amazing!
     😍 😍 😍 🗻 🗻 🚄 🚄 🚄 🚄 🚄 🚄 🚄 🚄








The new EMU of China Fuxing has a speed of 435 km/h--Seetao


China has set a world record for the speed of high-speed EMU trains crossing open lines and tunnels




www.seetao.com













🚅🚅🚅🚅🚅🚅🚅🚅


----------



## paulps99

499towersofchina said:


> Here's a brand new article on the testing being currently carried out on the virtually complete and almost ready for service Zhengzhou - Jinan and Zhengzhou - Chongqing High Speed Rail Lines.
> The primary highlight is that two sets of the latest version and iteration of China's Fuxing High Speed train series models both hit a top speed of 435km/h whilst passing each other on the Zhengzhou - Jinan High speed line in prototype form. The secondary highlights are two-fold, the first is the fact that one of the prototype sets hit a speed of 403km/h whilst going through a tunnel on the New Line to Chongqing. By section of the line line from Zhengzhou to Chongqing that's opening this summer literally has 11 tunnels over 10km in length, and the longest one called the Xiaosanxia Tunnel (小三峡隧道 in Chinese characters) 18.954km long!
> The second is that in a few years time, possible 2 years, there will be a pair of even faster and more aerodynamic versions of the Fuxing train series that currently go by the codenames CR450AF and CR450BF.
> China's engineering keeps getting more amazing!
> 😍 😍 😍 🗻 🗻 🚄 🚄 🚄 🚄 🚄 🚄 🚄 🚄
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new EMU of China Fuxing has a speed of 435 km/h--Seetao
> 
> 
> China has set a world record for the speed of high-speed EMU trains crossing open lines and tunnels
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.seetao.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 3107168
> 
> 
> 🚅🚅🚅🚅🚅🚅🚅🚅


So is that a test speed of 435kph & maybe operating speed of 400kph?? Will the test speeds get higher or will the operating speed be a bit lower? Is China pursuing regular higher speeds than that of the normal/common max. of 350kph? 

This is very interesting as I believed 350kph was about the safe max. for wheels on rail. There must be some breakthrough in technology to gain higher speeds or are they just reducing the safety margin to what they consider reasonable? I note that in some industries safety margins can be a tad over inflated for various reasons. They will have to do a lot of testing I would assume. 

Sorry I'm no expert just guessing based on some light reading of HSR. Please correct me where I'm wrong. 

Agree, this thread has be a bit quiet lately.


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## paulps99

paulps99 said:


> So is that a test speed of 435kph & maybe operating speed of 400kph?? Will the test speeds get higher or will the operating speed be a bit lower? Is China pursuing regular higher speeds than that of the normal/common max. of 350kph?
> 
> This is very interesting as I believed 350kph was about the safe max. for wheels on rail. There must be some breakthrough in technology to gain higher speeds or are they just reducing the safety margin to what they consider reasonable? I note that in some industries safety margins can be a tad over inflated for various reasons. They will have to do a lot of testing I would assume.
> 
> Sorry I'm no expert just guessing based on some light reading of HSR. Please correct me where I'm wrong.
> 
> Agree, this thread has be a bit quiet lately.


Ok, I should have read the article first before posting but... It's a little light on details and being early news it does sound like the reporter may not have a lot of detail himself, so most of my questions remain. Maybe we will have to wait and see.


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## OnRail123

That's a poorly written article. The CR450 designation implies a design speed of 450+ and an operating speed of 400.

However, the train in question is likely a CR400-based inspection train. In addition to its 350 inspection duties, it is used as the test-bed to carry out preliminary tests on technologies that will be used on the CR450. It is not itself a CR450 train.


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## 499towersofchina

OnRail123 said:


> That's a poorly written article. The CR450 designation implies a design speed of 450+ and an operating speed of 400.
> 
> However, the train in question is likely a CR400-based inspection train. In addition to its 350 inspection duties, it is used as the test-bed to carry out preliminary tests on technologies that will be used on the CR450. It is not itself a CR450 train.


I agree with everything you wrote, from all the English and Chinese language information there is, the CR450 is effectively a future second generation version of the Fuxing High Speed Train that will probably only be used on routes which either take recently completed and soon to be completed lines designe for 350km/h or older but heavily upgraded and resignalled 350km/h lines such as the Beijing - Shanghai High Speed Line.

I know that the article is fairly poor in how it's written but that's because it's been from Seetao which is a China-based online magazine focusing on development in China as well as Belt and Road projects internationally. They obviously doesn't seem to have editors or staff who can genuinely translate entire articles, books and sentences of written Chinese characters into English. I so hope that they improve and hire better linguists in future.


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## Gusiluz

Thank you very much for posting on this thread!

One of the trains in the test is Doctor Huang (yellow) CR400BF-J-0511 and I think it's the one implementing the new braking and motoring technologies, does it still have 4M 4T or -as they did on other prototypes- have they changed 2T for 2M?
The other train looks like a CR400BF-C Zhu Rong and I think it is the one implementing the new suspension and hermetic technologies. Do you know the number?


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## Josh_o

paulps99 said:


> So is that a test speed of 435kph & maybe operating speed of 400kph?? Will the test speeds get higher or will the operating speed be a bit lower? Is China pursuing regular higher speeds than that of the normal/common max. of 350kph?
> 
> This is very interesting as I believed 350kph was about the safe max. for wheels on rail. There must be some breakthrough in technology to gain higher speeds or are they just reducing the safety margin to what they consider reasonable? I note that in some industries safety margins can be a tad over inflated for various reasons. They will have to do a lot of testing I would assume.
> 
> Sorry I'm no expert just guessing based on some light reading of HSR. Please correct me where I'm wrong.
> 
> Agree, this thread has be a bit quiet lately.


Looking forward for more updates from you! Tks


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## OnRail123




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## gao7

*Section of Zhengzhou-Jinan high-speed railway starts trial run*






























> Aerial photo taken on April 29, 2022 shows a bullet train departing from Zhengzhou East Railway Station during a trial run in Zhengzhou, central China's Henan Province. The Zhengzhou-Puyang section of the Zhengzhou-Jinan high-speed railway started trial run on Friday. (Li An)


Section of Zhengzhou-Jinan high-speed railway starts trial run


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## lawdefender

According to news on April 30, 2022, China National Railway Group Co., Ltd. (“National Railway Group”) disclosed the final financial information for 2021 and the first quarter of 2022 on April 29.


In 2021, the National Railway Group achieved a revenue of 1,131.3 billion yuan, a year-on-year increase of 64.6 billion yuan, an increase of 6.1%; a net loss of 49.85 billion yuan, a year-on-year decrease of 5.6 billion yuan; the national railway passenger capacity reached 2.53 billion passengers, an increase of 16.9% year-on-year, and annual cargo tonnage reached 3.72 billion tons, an increase of 4.0% year-on-year.

In the first quarter of 2022, China Railway Group achieved revenue of 230.1 billion yuan, a year-on-year increase of 1.4%.


In 2021, the national railway completed a fixed asset investment of 748.9 billion yuan, and put into operation 4,208 kilometers of new lines, including 2,168 kilometers of high-speed rail. 

By the end of 2021, the national railway operating mileage exceeded 150,000 kilometers, of which high-speed rail exceeded 40,000 kilometers.






国铁集团：2021 年全国铁路投产新线 4208 公里，其中高铁 2168 公里 - IT之家


2021 年，全国铁路完成固定资产投资 7489 亿元，投产新线 4208 公里，其中高铁 2168 公里。截至 2021 年底，全国铁路营业里程突破 15 万公里，其中高铁超过 4 万公里。




www.ithome.com


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## 499towersofchina

Hey and Dajiahao, fans of China's High Speed Rail development.

Here are four xigua video screenshot images of Fuyang West High Speed Station, a new High Speed Rail station on a new line nearing which is nearing completion station and will serve one of the outer districts of the city of Hangzhou. 
Ironically there is also already another Chinese High Speed Station in Anhui Province between Hefei and Zhengzhou called 'Fuyang West' on the High Speed Line between Zhengzhou and Hefei that opened in 2019. It's confusing. That station serves the prefectural-level city of Fuyang and according to the most recent data that I've just checked, that city has an urban or built-up population of around 1.5 to 2 million people.
By contrast, this station only serves one of the few outer districts of the city of Hangzhou in which as of recent data has a population of 11 million.
Just like with so many pairs of different Chinese cities, districts and places which have the same pronunciation. The only difference between these two 'Fuyangs' is how the both names are written in Chinese characters.
The city of Anhui Province is written in Chinese as '阜阳市'
The district of Hangzhou in Zhejiang Province is written as '富阳区'

Even more confusing and ironic is that Fuyang District already has another High Speed Rail Station called simply 'Fuyang' located in the middle of this outer disitrct. That station serves the line from Hangzhou to the touristic mountain city of Huangshan in the South of Anhui Province. 

The rail line of which this almost complete and ready for operation 'Fuyang West' station serves is the First section of the Hangzhou - Yiwu - Wenzhou High Speed Line. According to latest plans, It should be operational by August or September this year. When, this line when it is fully completed in around the year 2024, it will be a fast one with a 350km/h operation design speed connect the city of Wenzhou in Zhejiang Province as well as the cities of Fuzhou and Xiamen in Fujian Province with Hangzhou on a much more direct alignment compared to the currently operational 250km/h and 350km/h lines by bypassing and avoiding cities such as Ningbo, Taizhou, Jinhua and Shangrao.

Also, for Chinese skyscraper fans, another great thing here is this station is the next on the line from the Hangzhou West High Speed Station, the main station on this new line where Hangzhou's future tallest skyscraper of around 390-400m as well as many other skyscrapers have just started basement excavation and full construction work.
🏯 🏯 🌺 🌺 😎 🌇 🚅 🚅 🚅 🚄 🚄   🗻 🗻


https://www.ixigua.com/7091653471057019426?logTag=3674952094f2966270e7


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## hkskyline

* What's behind China's new high-speed rail closing speed record? *
CGTN _Excerpt_
Apr 25, 2022

China set a new world record of the closing speed among two trains on April 21. This speed of 870 km/h is blisteringly fast for trains. But why is this record significant?

The record is about the speed of two "Fuxing" bullet trains running toward each other. But it's not a collision test in which the trains crash and get destroyed.

Instead, the trains run on two separate tracks side by side on parallel. So, no crashing took place in the test.

Each train ran at the speed of 435 km/h during the test. And when they passed each other, the combined speed doubled to 870 km/h. That's how the record was set.

It's widely known that high-speed railway (HSR) in China is fast. But why does it matter?

The difficult part of the test lies between the two trains. When they passed by each other at such a high speed, the air pressure between the trains became so high that they could be pushed off the rails, leading to disastrous accidents.

More : What's behind China's new high-speed rail closing speed record?


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## lawdefender

Beijing-Guangzhou high-speed rail operation speeded up, Beijing to Guangzhou reduced to 7 hours and 38 minutes

The reporter learned from China National Railway Group Co., Ltd. that it is expected that the operation speed between Beijing and Wuhan will be at 350 kilometers per hour from June 20, and the shortest running time between Beijing and Wuhan will be reduced to 3 hours and 48 minutes.






京广高铁京武段提速运营 北京到广州缩至7小时38分


北京至武汉间最短运行时间压缩至3小时48分。




news.ycwb.com


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## 499towersofchina

Hey everyone, I'm happy to hear about the increased operating speed on the Beijing - Wuhan High Speed Line.
I would just like to do an SSC post on a future Chinese High Speed Rail station.

Here are two screenshots from a xigua video filmed a day or few ago of the currently under construction Chongqing East High Speed Rail Station. 
This station will open in 2025 and will serve several new lines.

One of the new lines is the Chongqing - Qianjiang High Speed Railway that will connect the city of Chongqing to Qianjiang District on the border between Chongqing Municipality and Hunan Province. It's the final section of a partially completed future High Speed Line that directly connects Chongqing and Changsha. 

Another line served by this new station a second High Speed Line between the actual city of Chongqing and Wanzhou District on the Yangtze River in Northwest of the Municpality. There's already a 250km/h High Speed Intercity Line from Wanzhou to Chongqing North High Speed Rail Station. This new line has just started construction and is designed for a top operating speed of 350km/h.

The Chongqing East Station will also connect with the currently under construction Chongqing - Yibin - Kunming High Speed Railway.

According to Chinese websites, this station is massive, it will have 29 tracks served by 15 platforms.



https://www.ixigua.com/7098965877147730432?logTag=0960dc86572ecdaa804e



















Here are some renderings and info from English language website of Chongqing News.
I love the entrance and facade, there's loads of public space and the columns are like that of the terminal building of the new Beijing Daxing International Airport.
In fact the whole station looks like a mashup of Hangzhou East High Speed Rail Station and Daxing Airport terminal building.



Preview of Chongqing East Railway Station - Chongqing News - CQNEWS_English


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## hkskyline

*Zhengzhou-Wanzhou high-speed railway enters trial *
China Daily _Excerpt_
May 19, 2022

The Xiangyang East to Badong section of the Zhengzhou-Chongqing high-speed railway officially entered trial operation recently, marking the countdown to the opening of the whole line.

The railway that connects Zhengzhou of Henan province and Southwest China's Chongqing municipality is 1,063 kilometers long with designed speeds from 250 km per hour to 350 km/h.

It consists of the Zhengzhou-Wanzhou section and Wanzhou-Chongqing section.

The Zhengzhou-Wanzhou section is 818 km long with a designed speed of 350 km/h, and the Wanzhou-Chongqing section is 245 km long with a designed speed of 250 km/h.

Central Henan province, the Chengdu-Chongqing economic circle and the Yangtze River Economic Belt will be more closely connected once the whole line is opened, according to a news conference held by China Railway Chengdu Group in Chongqing on Tuesday.

More : https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202205/19/WS628596eca310fd2b29e5d9ea.html


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## lawdefender

All tunnels on the Guangzhou-Shanwei high-speed rail line have been completed and have entered the stage of comprehensive track laying


The reporter learned from the Guangzhou Railway Group on the 29th that at around 21:00 on May 28, after more than 1,100 days of intense construction, all 50 tunnels on the Guangzhou-Shantou high-speed railway line were fully connected, and the next step will be fully transferred to the track laying construction stage.

The *Guangzhou–Shanwei high-speed railway* is a high-speed railway currently under construction in China. The total length is 203.36 kilometers, with 7 stations. It will have a design speed of 350 kilometres per hour and is expected to open in 2023.

The New line will be constructed with an design speed of 250 km/h between Xintang to Zengcheng South. The rest of the line between Zengcheng South to Shanwei has a design speed of 350 km/h. The line will shorten the journey between Guangzhou and Shanwei to one hour by avoiding Shenzhen.






广汕高铁全线隧道全部贯通 转入全面铺轨阶段-中新网


(记者 郭军)记者29日从广铁集团获悉，5月28日21时许，在经历1100余天紧张施工后，由广铁集团广州工程建设指挥部(以下简称：广州指挥部)建设管理的广汕高铁迎牌山隧道顺利贯通。



www.chinanews.com.cn


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## 499towersofchina

In this post, I will share info and another future Chinese High Speed Rail Station.
This one is the Nanchang East High Speed Rail Station. The station building was designed by German architecture firm GMP and has a massive roof formed of three huge arches. Like with almost all large or major Chinese High Speed Rail stations. The roof cover the concourse which in situated directly above the platforms.








Competition won for Nanchang Eastern Railway Station, China - Press - gmp Architekten


Nanchang, a metropolis with about five million inhabitants located at the southern bank of the Poyang Lake in central China, will be given a new railway station to a design by Architects von Gerkan, Marg and Partners (gmp). The city is currently unde




www.gmp.de





















Construction on the station started last year and will be completed in 2024.
To begin with, it will serve a currently under construction High Speed Line between Nanchang and Huangshan via Jingdezhen. That new line will form a second High Speed route between Nanchang and Hangzhou bypassing Jinhua, Yiwu and Shangrao.
That line will also create a faster and more direct High Speed route from Nanchang to Nanjing as a another high line between Huangshan and the city of Xuancheng is also currently under construction and will be opened in around 2024 or 2025.
Both those lines are designed for operating speeds of 350km/h.
Further in the future, Nanchang East Station will serve a planned second line between Nanchang and Jinjiang on the Yangtze River. That line is part the planned second national high speed rail corridor between Beijing and Shenzhen and Hong Kong with this corridor bypassing Guangzhou and Wuhan.
I've posted these two 4k xigua video screenshots showing construction progress on the future station around 2 weeks ago.


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## Comunicación

*Heavy! 4 railways in the 14th Five-Year Plan to start bidding*

Heavy! 4 railways in the 14th Five-Year Plan to start bidding--Seetao


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## 499towersofchina

Here are three screenshots from two xigua videos capturing construction progress on a future High Speed Line in Hubei Province between Yichang, a large city on the Yangtze River and the town of Xingshan in in the Daba Mountains or Dabashan where it connects to the Zhengzhou - Chongqing High Speed Line. There is one intermediate station on the line inside some mountainous nature reserve which will almost certainly be used only really to transport tourists and hikers.
The line in roughly 109km and has 4 tunnels other 10km. The longest of which is around 16.8km long and is called the Xingshandong Tunnel (兴山东隧道 in Chinese characters) 
This line will provide a more direct High Speed route between Wuhan, Nanjing and Shanghai in Eastern China and Chengdu and Chongqing in Western China when it opens in around 2025. 
Very soon when the Zhengzhou - Chongqing Line section between Xiangyang in Hubei and Wanzhou District in Chongqing Municipality opens, the fastest High Speed services from Wuhan will go north via Xiangyang. 

When this line opens high speed services will probably take the medium speed 200km/h line from Wuhan and Yichang and then the fast line to Xingshan and then on to Wushan and Wanzhou in the Yangtze Three Gorges region and eventually Chongqing or Chengdu.

Further afield in the late 2020s, there will be a fully High Speed 350km/h designed line between Wuhan and Yichang that goes through different cities to the current line as well as another 350km/h line from Wanzhou District in Chongqing Municipality to Chengdu avoiding central Chongqing city.
Both these lines are currently in the early construction stages with earthwork and land clearing.
There are also currently in the planning stages a direct 350km/h line from Wanzhou to Chongqing and a more direct line from Chongqing to Yichang that parralels the G50 Shanghai - Chongqing Expressway.
All these lines will obviously make journey times between Shanghai, Nanjing, Hefei, Wuhan, Chongqing and Chengdu much faster and more efficient.


https://www.ixigua.com/7103064661603385856?logTag=00df61cec76777c42e9d













https://www.ixigua.com/7103076052855063081?logTag=47c6b5dcf35fce651086


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## General Huo

*Construction of two high-speed railways with a design speed of 350 kilometers per hour in the west started*
original2022-11-29 18:58·poster news
*Poster reporter Deng Bo reports from Chongqing*

On November 29, the poster news reporter learned from the official website of China National Railway Group Co., Ltd. that the Chengdu-Chongqing Middle Line high-speed railway and the Xi'an-Chongqing high-speed railway (referred to as the West-Chongqing high-speed railway) Ankang-Chongqing section started construction on the 28th and 29th respectively. The design speed is 350 kilometers per hour.

The construction of the Chengdu-Chongqing middle line high-speed railway started on November 28. The total length of the main line is 292 kilometers. It starts from Chongqing North Station, the hub of Chongqing, and goes westward through Yubei District, Shapingba District, Bishan District, Tongliang District, Dazu District of Chongqing City, Sichuan Ziyang City and Chengdu City in the province will introduce the Chengdu hub Chengdu Station, and some sections will be reserved for further speed-up conditions, and the construction period will be 5 years. The Chengdu-Chongqing Middle Line high-speed railway has 8 stations including Chongqing North, Chongqing Science City, Tongliang, Dazu Rock Carvings, Anyue, Lezhi, Jianzhou, and Chengdu. Among them, Chongqing North Station is an existing station, Chengdu Station is a reconstruction and expansion station, and others 6 stations are new stations.

The Ankang-Chongqing section of the West-Chongqing High-speed Railway started construction on November 29. The total length of the West-Chongqing High-speed Railway is 739 kilometers. It is divided into two sections from Xi'an to Ankang and Ankang to Chongqing. The main line of the section from Xi’an to Ankang is 171 kilometers long, and construction has started in June 2021, with a construction period of 5 years; the newly started construction of the main line from Ankang to Chongqing is 478 kilometers long, and the connecting line between Xi’an-Chongqing high-speed railway and Zhengyu high-speed railway The total length of the main line is 90 kilometers, and the construction period is 6 years.

The Ankang-Chongqing section of the West-Chongqing High-speed Railway starts from Ankang West Station, passes through Ankang City in Shaanxi Province, Chengkou County in Chongqing City, Dazhou City and Guang'an City in Sichuan Province, Hechuan District and Beibei District in Chongqing City, and is introduced into Chongqing West Station, the hub of Chongqing. Ankang West, Langao, Chengkou, Fankuai, Xuanhan South, Dazhou South, Dazhu, Guang'an East, Hechuan East, Beibei South, and Chongqing West 11 stations, of which Chongqing West is an existing station and the others are newly built stations; West-Chongqing High-speed Railway The connecting line with the Zhengyu high-speed railway starts from Fankuai Station of the Ankang-Chongqing section of the West-Chongqing high-speed railway, passes through Dazhou City, Sichuan Province, Kaizhou District and Wanzhou District of Chongqing City, and ends at the Wanzhou North Station of the Zhengyu High-speed Railway. A new Kaizhou station is built.

The Chengdu-Chongqing middle line high-speed railway is an important part of the "eight vertical and eight horizontal" high-speed railway network along the river. After the project is completed, it will cooperate with the Xi'an-Chengdu high-speed railway, Zhengzhou-Chongqing high-speed railway that has been completed and in operation, and the Xining-Chengdu high-speed railway, Chengdu-Dazhou-Wanzhou high-speed railway, Xi'an-Chongqing high-speed railway, Chongqing-Kunming high-speed railway, Chongqing-Wanzhou high-speed railway, etc. Multiple lines are connected.

The West-Chongqing high-speed railway is an important part of the "eight vertical and eight horizontal" high-speed rail network, the Beijing-Kunming channel from Beijing to Kunming and the Bao (Silver) Sea channel from Baotou and Yinchuan to Haikou. After the completion of the project, it will be connected with Chengdu-Chongqing high-speed railway, Zhengzhou-Chongqing high-speed railway, Chongqing-Kunming high-speed railway, Xi'an-Yan'an high-speed railway, Xi'an-Shiyan high-speed railway, etc. to further improve.


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## General Huo

*Xi'an-Chongqing high-speed railway started construction*
On November 29, the construction of the Ankang-Chongqing section of the Xi'an-Chongqing high-speed railway (hereinafter referred to as the Xi'an-Chongqing high-speed railway) started. This marks the start of construction on the entire line of the West-Chongqing High-Speed Railway, and further acceleration of the western railway construction, which will provide a new engine for rural revitalization and coordinated regional development.

The West-Chongqing High-speed Railway has a total length of 739 kilometers and a design speed of 350 kilometers per hour. It is divided into two sections from Xi'an to Ankang and Ankang to Chongqing. The connecting line between the West-Chongqing High-speed Railway and the Zhengyu High-speed Railway will be constructed simultaneously. The main line of the section from Xi’an to Ankang is 171 kilometers long, and construction has started in June 2021, with a construction period of 5 years; the newly started construction of the main line from Ankang to Chongqing is 478 kilometers long, and the connecting line between Xi’an-Chongqing high-speed railway and Zhengyu high-speed railway The total length of the main line is 90 kilometers, and the construction period is 6 years


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## General Huo

According to China National Railway Group Co., Ltd., on November 28, the construction of the Chengdu-Chongqing middle line high-speed railway started, and a new large channel will be added to the Chengdu-Chongqing economic circle.









The Chengdu-Chongqing middle line high-speed railway starts from Chongqing North Station, the hub of Chongqing, and passes through Yubei District, Shapingba District, Bishan District, Tongliang District, Dazu District of Chongqing City, Ziyang City and Chengdu City, Sichuan Province, and introduces Chengdu Station, the main line The total length is 292 kilometers, and the design speed is 350 kilometers per hour. Some sections are reserved for further speed-up conditions, and the construction period is 5 years.

The Chengdu-Chongqing Middle Line high-speed railway has 8 stations including Chongqing North, Chongqing Science City, Tongliang, Dazu Rock Carvings, Anyue, Lezhi, Jianzhou, and Chengdu. Among them, Chongqing North Station is an existing station, Chengdu Station is a reconstruction and expansion station, and others 6 stations are new stations.
















Elevation rendering of the new Chengdu Station building


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## Zaz965

everyone, please, take a look at this video. pure awesomeness


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## General Huo

*Construction of the Xi'an-Tongchuan section of the Xi'an-Yan'an high-speed railway started*
2022-11-30 14:58·China News Network

Chinanews.com, Xi'an, November 30th (Reporter Zhang Yuan) The Xi'an-Yan'an high-speed railway (hereinafter referred to as the Xi'an High-speed Railway) started construction on the Xi'an-Tongchuan section on the 30th, marking the start of the entire line of the Xi'an High-speed Railway, and the further acceleration of the western railway construction. Inject new impetus into the rural revitalization of old revolutionary areas.

Located in Shaanxi Province, the Xiyan high-speed railway has a total length of 299 kilometers and a design speed of 350 kilometers per hour. It will be constructed in two sections from Xi'an to Tongchuan and from Tongchuan to Yan'an. The Tongchuan-Yan'an section has a total length of 208 kilometers, and construction has started on May 1, 2021, with a construction period of 4.5 years.

The Xi'an-Tongchuan section under construction this time has a total length of 91 kilometers. It is drawn from Xi'an East Railway Station, passes through Gaoling District and Yanliang District of Xi'an City, Fuping County of Weinan City to Tongchuan City, and consists of Xi'an East, Port District East, Gaoling and Fuping There are 7 stations in South, Tongchuan, Xi'an North, and Port Area. Among them, Xi'an North Station is an existing station, and the others are newly built stations. The supporting projects such as the connecting line between Port Area East Station and Xi'an North Station will be constructed simultaneously. The construction period is 3 years.

The west-extended high-speed railway is an important part of China's "eight vertical and eight horizontal" high-speed railway network Baotou and the Bao (Yin) Haikou passage from Yinchuan to Haikou, and its position in the road network is very important. After the completion of the project, the running time from Xi'an to Yan'an will be shortened from the current 2.5 hours to about 1 hour, which will greatly facilitate the travel of people along the route, consolidate and expand the achievements of poverty alleviation in the old revolutionary areas, comprehensively promote rural revitalization, and form a new pattern of western development , is of great significance. (Finish)
















The picture shows the rendering of the Tongchuan high-speed railway station. Photo courtesy of National Railway Xi'an Bureau


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## General Huo

*Nantong-Ningbo high-speed railway starts construction*
2022-11-30 12:00·xinhuanet
November 30

Nantong-Ningbo high-speed railway starts construction

Will help the integrated development of the Yangtze River Delta

The Nantong-Ningbo high-speed railway line starts from Nantong West Station of Yancheng-Nantong high-speed railway, goes southward through Suzhou City, Jiangsu Province, Jiaxing City, Zhejiang Province, and Ningbo City, and introduces Ningbo Hub Ningbo Station. The new line is 301 kilometers long, with a design speed of 350 kilometers per hour. The construction period 5 years.









Schematic Diagram of Nantong-Ningbo High-Speed Railway

There are 10 stations on the whole line: Nantong West, Zhangjiagang, Changshu West, Suzhou North, Suzhou South, Jiashan North, Jiaxing South, Haiyan, Cixi, and Zhuangqiao, of which Changshu West, Suzhou South, Jiashan North, Haiyan, and Cixi are newly built. station, and others are existing stations.









Effect drawing of Changshu West Railway Station








Effect picture of Haiyan Station








Renderings of the North Channel Bridge across the Hangzhou Bay Bridge









Renderings of the South Channel Bridge across the Hangzhou Bay Bridge








Plane schematic diagram of the Tongsu Jiayong high-speed railway line. Photo courtesy of Jiangsu Railway Group








Rendering of Suzhou South Railway Station. With "connection" as the design concept, create a station building image in the new era of economic art. Photo courtesy of Jiangsu Railway Group


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## General Huo

*The Nanning-Chongzuo section of Nanping High-speed Railway in Guangxi was officially opened to traffic on December 5, 2022*
The Nanning-Chongzuo (Pingxiang) Passenger Dedicated Line is the first intercity high-speed railway independently invested and constructed by Guangxi in Guangxi. The line starts from Nanning Station in the Nanning hub in the east, passes through Wuxu Airport Station, Fusui South Station, and Qujiu Station (Reserved station), to Chongzuo South Station, long-term extension through Ningming County to newly establish Ningming East Station, via Longzhou County to newly establish Longzhou Station, and introduce Pingxiang City to newly establish Pingxiang East Station. The main line of the Nanchong section has a total length of 119.3 kilometers and a design speed of 250 kilometers per hour. It is an important part of Guangxi's realization of "city-to-city high-speed rail".


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## General Huo

*3+2, there will be 5 high-speed trains between these two cities!*
China Railway 2022-12-06 17:33:56
Shanghai and Nanjing, the two central cities in the Yangtze River Delta region, are more than 300 kilometers apart. During peak hours, more than 300 pairs of trains operate every day. The cities along the route are integrated into the Shanghai-Nanjing "1-hour high-speed rail circle". Since then, many tourists have begun to "use the high-speed rail as a bus "commuting life.
Passengers who often take the high-speed rail between Shanghai and Nanjing will find that starting from different stations in Shanghai and arriving at Nanjing Station or Nanjing South Station, the running distance and time are not the same. This is because the high-speed rail line between Shanghai and Nanjing is more than 300 kilometers More than one. When passengers take the high-speed railway between Shanghai and Nanjing, there are several ways to go. Different lines have different passing stations and running distances.

The Shanghai-Nanjing high-speed railway, the first high-speed railway between Shanghai and Nanjing, opened for operation in July 2010, with a total length of 301 kilometers and a maximum design speed of 350 kilometers per hour. There are 21 stations between Shanghai and Nanjing. It is the high-speed railway between Shanghai and Nanjing. The main force of train travel.


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## General Huo

^^^
There is the sixth HSR between Shanghai and Nanjing. It is on the south side of Taihu Lake. It goes through Shanghai-Huzhou-Nanjing. The Shanghai-Huzhou HSR is under construction now.


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## gao7

*Chongqing section of Chengdu-Dazhou-Wanzhou high-speed railway starts construction*
























> This aerial photo taken on Dec. 11, 2022 shows a bridge under construction at the Chongqing section of Chengdu-Dazhou-Wanzhou high-speed railway in southwest China's Chongqing Municipality. The Chongqing section of Chengdu-Dazhou-Wanzhou high-speed railway started construction on Sunday. (Tang Yi)


Chongqing section of Chengdu-Dazhou-Wanzhou high-speed railway starts construction


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## General Huo

*Yunnan Mimeng high-speed railway opened to traffic*
2022-12-16 22:05·Xinhua News Agency
On the same day, the Mile-Mengzi high-speed railway was put into operation.

The Mimeng high-speed railway is located in Honghe Hani and Yi Autonomous Prefecture. The line starts from Maitreya Station in the north and arrives at Honghe Station in Mengzi City in the south. It has a total length of 106 kilometers and a design speed of 250 kilometers per hour.


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## lookback718

General Huo said:


> *Yunnan Mimeng high-speed railway opened to traffic*
> 2022-12-16 22:05·Xinhua News Agency
> On the same day, the Mile-Mengzi high-speed railway was put into operation.
> 
> The Mimeng high-speed railway is located in Honghe Hani and Yi Autonomous Prefecture. The line starts from Maitreya Station in the north and arrives at Honghe Station in Mengzi City in the south. It has a total length of 106 kilometers and a design speed of 250 kilometers per hour.


This line has reduced the time from Kunming to Mengzi to 69 minutes according to this source:






New high-speed railway enters operation in China's Yunnan


New high-speed railway enters operation in China's Yunnan-



english.news.cn





I think the previous time from Kunming to Mengzi was about 3 hours and from Kunming to Hekou North was about 4.5 hours.

Does anyone know what the new time from Kunming to Hekou via Mile will be? I'm thinking about 1.5 hours from Mengzi to Hekou, so that would make it around 2hrs39mins plus a tad more.

That will make travel to Vietnam much more convenient in the future.


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## General Huo

*The Maitreya-Mengzi high-speed railway will be in operation on December 16! From Kunming South Railway Station to Honghe Station in 69 minutes at the fastest*
2022-12-15 18:06·China Railway
*On December 16, the Mitreya-Mengzi high-speed railway (hereinafter referred to as "Mitreya High-speed Railway") opened for operation.*








The Mimeng high-speed railway is located in Honghe Hani and Yi Autonomous Prefecture, Yunnan Province. The line starts from Nanning in the north to Kunming High-speed Railway Mile Station, passes through Mile City, Kaiyuan City, and Mengzi City in Honghe Hani and Yi Autonomous Prefecture, and arrives at Honghe Station in Mengzi City in the south *. 106 kilometers, with a design speed of 250 kilometers per hour. There are 5 stations on the whole line: Maitreya, Zhuyuan, Pengpu, Kaiyuannan, and Honghe* . Among them, Maitreya Station is an existing station and the others are new stations.








The geology along the Mimeng high-speed railway is complex and there are many bridges and tunnels. Since the start of construction in June 2018, the China National Railway Group has organized scientific construction of participating units to overcome difficulties and ensured that the project was completed on schedule.








At the initial stage of the opening and operation of the Mimeng high-speed railway, the railway department will arrange to run multiple trains. Kunming South Station to Honghe Station can be reached in 69 minutes at the fastest, and three places in Honghe Hani and Yi Autonomous Prefecture of Yunnan Province, such as Maitreya, Kaiyuan and Mengzi, can realize semi Hours accessible. The railway department will dynamically adjust the train operation plan according to the change of passenger flow.








Before the project was put into operation, the railway department meticulously organized relevant units to carry out joint debugging, joint testing, inspection and acceptance, and safety assessment of various professional equipment of the Mimeng high-speed railway in strict accordance with various regulations and standards. , communication signal system, etc. have been comprehensively optimized and adjusted. At present, the project fully meets the requirements for safe and stable operation of high-speed railways, and is ready for operation.








The Mimeng high-speed railway is connected to the Nanning-Kunming high-speed railway in the north and the Kunming-Hekou railway in the south. It is an important part of the railway channel from Southwest China to ASEAN countries. Its opening and operation *will further improve the road network structure in southeast Yunnan, greatly facilitate the travel of people of all ethnic groups along the route, and help the development of tourism and other industries. Significance.







*


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## General Huo

*This 350 km/h high-speed rail begins to lay tracks!*
2022-12-15 20:18·China Railway
On December 15, a pair of 500-meter-long steel rails were laid smoothly on the Jinxi Lake Bridge in Nanchang City, Jiangxi Province, *marking that the Changjing-Huangzhou High-speed Railway officially entered the track-laying stage of the entire line, and it was one step closer to opening and operation* .








The Changjing-Huangzhou high-speed railway is a high-speed railway regional connection line based on the "eight vertical and eight horizontal" main channels, and is an important channel connecting the two provinces of Jiangxi and Anhui. The line starts from Nanchang City in Jiangxi Province in the west, passes through Shangrao City and Jingdezhen City in Jiangxi Province, and ends in Huangshan City in Anhui Province in the east. The total length is about 290 *kilometers* . There are 7 stations in Leping North, Poyang South, Yugan, Junshan Lake, and Nanchang East. The line has crossed great rivers and lakes many times, across the Poyang Lake Plain, and through the Huangshan Mountains. It is a golden tourist line with very beautiful scenery.








The total length of bridges in the Jiangxi section of the Changjing-Huangzhou High-speed Railway is about 158 kilometers. In order to ensure the efficiency of track laying operations and construction safety, the construction unit set up a traffic dispatching center and introduced the most advanced dispatching system in China to realize intelligent visualization of on-site management and automatic safety warning. At the same time, the construction adopts advanced multi-line track-laying integrated machine, and the operation efficiency is increased by more than 50%.








After the opening of the Jiangxi section of the Changjing-Huangzhou high-speed railway, Jiangxi has added a high-speed railway artery connecting the Yangtze River Delta region, which is of great significance for promoting the development of the Poyang Lake Ecological Economic Zone, improving the regional high-speed rail transportation network, and accelerating Jiangxi's integration into the development strategy of the Yangtze River Economic Belt.


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## General Huo

*Many new lines and new stations will be opened in this area!*
original2022-12-16 18:38·China Railway
Recently, Jingtang and Jingbin intercity railways

Has entered the stage of full-line operation test

Two new lines will be added in the Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei region








▲ An EMU enters the Yanjiao Station of the Jingtang Intercity Railway. The expanded Yanjiao Station is about to usher in the era of high-speed rail. Photo by Li Xiaoqiang
Looking back to 2022

The railway construction in the Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei region has achieved fruitful results

*Taichong Section of Taixi Railway* opened

*Beijing Fengtai Station* officially put into operation

*The construction of Xiongshang and Xiongxin high-speed railway* started on schedule

*Beijing City Sub-Central Station, Jinxing Railway* , etc.

Key projects are speeding up construction









▲ Beijing Fengtai Station is the largest railway hub passenger station in Asia, with high-speed and normal-speed passenger double-decker depots. Photo by Jia Jia


The railway network in the Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei region is getting denser and denser

Achieved full coverage of cities with a population of more than 200,000

High-speed rail has covered Beijing and Tianjin

and 11 prefecture-level cities in Hebei Province

And 1 national-level new area——Xiongan New Area









Drawing: Zhang Yuntao
In recent years, with the Beijing-Zhangjiakou High-speed Railway, Chongli Railway, Jin-Qin High-speed Railway, Beijing-Harbin High-speed Railway Jingcheng Section, Beijing-Xiong Intercity Railway, etc. completed and opened to traffic, *the connecting railways between Hebei and Beijing-Tianjin have reached 23* , "Beijing-Tianjin on the track The main frame of "Ji" is basically formed.



*From China's first high-speed rail

To the "four-axis, eight-radiation" network layout



The Beijing-Tianjin Intercity Railway* is China's first high-speed railway with a design speed of 350 kilometers per hour. It was put into operation on August 1, 2008, shortening the distance between the two municipalities directly under the central government, Beijing and Tianjin, and having an important impact on the economic and social development of the two cities. The impact has provided technology accumulation and valuable experience for China's high-speed rail to lead the world.









▲ The Fuxing EMU is running on the Beijing-Tianjin Intercity Railway. Photo by Yang Baosen
The world's first intelligent high-speed rail with a speed of 350 kilometers per hour - *the Beijing-Zhangjiakou high-speed rail* opened on December 30, 2019. It is an important supporting project for the Beijing 2022 Winter Olympics and Winter Paralympics. An important part of Jinglan Passage.









▲The "Auspicious Snow Welcomes Spring" Fuxing intelligent EMUs flew close to the ground on the Beijing-Zhangjiakou high-speed railway, realizing the dream of a wonderful, extraordinary and outstanding Olympic event. Photo by Sun Lijun








▲ The Chongli Railway provides fast and convenient services for tourists who check in to the Zhangjiakou competition area of the Beijing Winter Olympics. Photo by Jia Jia
On June 20, 2022, the *Beijing-Wuhan section of the Beijing-Guangzhou high-speed railway* will be operated at a high speed of 350 kilometers per hour. So far, among the five safety standard demonstration lines in the country, the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway, the Beijing-Tianjin intercity railway, the Beijing-Zhangjiakou high-speed railway, and the Beijing-Guangzhou high-speed railway Four lines of the Beijing-Wuhan section of the high-speed rail pass through the Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei region.









▲ In Shijiazhuang City, Hebei Province, the Fuxing Intelligent EMU is driving on the Beijing-Guangzhou high-speed railway. Photo by Jia Jia








▲ Cangzhou West Station of Beijing-Shanghai High-speed Railway. Photo by Zhao Liwei
As of the end of November 2022, the *operating mileage of railways in the Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei region will reach 10,848 kilometers* , including 2,369 kilometers of high-speed railways. There are 71 high-speed railway stations dotted around, helping the rapid development of cities.









▲ The Fuxing EMU is running on the Shiji high-speed railway across the Shijiazhuang Development Zone Bridge. Photo by Jia Jia








▲ In Luanzhou City, EMUs are running on the Jinqin High-speed Railway. Photo by Zhao Liwei
During the "14th Five-Year Plan" period, the Beijing-Tangzhou Intercity Railway, the Jingbin Intercity Railway, the first-phase project of the intercity railway connection line, and the Jinxing Intercity Railway will be completed and opened. Projects such as Xinxin high-speed railway and Jinwei high-speed railway have started construction, and will gradually form the Beijing-Tianjin axis, Jingxiong (Shi) axis, Jingtang axis, and Jinxiong axis as the skeleton, connecting Taiyuan, Zhengzhou, Shangqiu, Jinan, Weifang, Qinhuangdao, and Shenyang The "four-axis, eight-radiation" road network layout in 8 directions of Hohhot and Hohhot.









▲ Chengde South Station of Beijing-Harbin High-speed Railway will become Chengde's urban "living room". Photo by Jia Jia
*Two intercity railways open soon

Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei coordinated development adds a new engine*



On the Jingtang and Jingbin intercity railways, the EMU trains are running fast, and the test phase of the entire line from Beijing Station to Tangshan Station, and from Beijing Station to Beichen Station has begun. At the same time, the pull-through test is carried out between Beijing and Qinhuangdao on the Tianjin-Qinqin High-speed Railway, which runs daily 9 Carry out the running test of the train according to the diagram.









▲ EMU trains are running on the Jingtang Intercity Railway. Photo by Yang Baosen
*The Beijing-Tangzhou Intercity Railway* is the backbone line of the intercity rail transit network in the Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei region. It starts from the Beijing City Sub-Center Station and ends at the existing Tangshan Station. The total length of the line is about 148.7 kilometers, and the design speed is 350 kilometers per hour.









▲ An EMU is running on the Beijing-Tangzhou intercity railway facing the rising sun. Photo by Wang Xinfeng
After the opening of the Beijing-Tangshan Intercity Railway, it will open up the intercity channel from the sub-center of Beijing to Tangshan, improve the level of channel transportation services, and greatly shorten the travel time between the capital Beijing and Tangshan City. At the same time, it will integrate tourism resources in the Bohai Rim region. Promote the development of tourism in areas along the route.









▲ Tangshan Station of Beijing-Tangzhou Intercity Railway. Photo by Dong Lian
*The Jingbin Intercity Railway* starts from Baodi Station of the Jingtang Intercity Railway. The total length of the main line is about 96 kilometers, and the design speed is 250 kilometers per hour.









▲ An EMU is running on the Keihin Intercity Railway. Photo by Li Jiajun
After the completion of the Jingbin Intercity Railway, it will become an important communication channel between Beijing and Tianjin Airport, Binhai New Area and other places, facilitating the travel of people along the line and further promoting the coordinated development of regional economy.









▲ Baodi Station, the intersection point of Jingtang and Jingbin intercity railways, is located in Baodi District, Tianjin. Photo by Yang Baosen
*Construction of two high-speed railways begins

Xiongan New District will become the new core of the road network*



On April 1, 2017, the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China and the State Council decided to establish the Xiongan New Area. In order to speed up the efficient integration of Xiong'an New District into "Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei on the track", the railway department quickly adjusted the pattern of the railway passenger transportation system in the Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei region to the "eight radiation" high-speed rail channels with Beijing-Tianjin-Xiong as the core and radiating the whole country, and Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei Tsuo's "triangular shape" is the skeleton of the intercity railway network.









▲ The Fuxing EMU entered Xiong'an Station. Photo by Sun Lijun
On December 27, 2020, the entire line of *the Beijing-Xiong Intercity Railway* opened for operation, and the Fuxing EMU entered the Xiong'an New District. The thousand-year-old capital and the "city of the future" are closely linked.









▲ The Xiong'an Station, which is integrated with the station and city, has become a landmark building in the "Future City" Xiong'an New District. Photo by Sun Lijun
In the golden autumn of 2022, after careful preparations, the Xiong’an New District to Shangqiu section of the Beijing-Xiong-Shanghai High-speed Railway and the Xiongxin High-speed Railway officially started construction.



*The Xiong’an New District-Shangqiu section* of the Beijing-Xiong-Shanghai High-speed Railway is an important part of the Beijing-Hong Kong (Taiwan) channel of China’s “eight vertical and eight horizontal” high-speed railway network. The main line has a total length of 552 kilometers and a* design speed of 350 kilometers per hour* . Xiong’an Station of the International Railway, and finally Shangqiu Station of the Shanghe-Hangzhou High-speed Railway, will connect the Shijiazhuang-Jinan High-speed Railway, Rizhao-Lankao High-speed Railway, and realize the interconnection with the Beijing-Guangzhou and Beijing-Shanghai High-speed Railways.









▲ On September 29, the construction of the Xiong’an New District-Shangqiu section of the Beijing-Xiong-Shanghai High-speed Railway officially started. Photo by Zhai Xianting
*The Xiongxin high-speed railway* is an important part of the Beijing-Kunming channel of China's "eight vertical and eight horizontal" high-speed railway network. The main line has a total length of 342 kilometers and a* design speed of 350 kilometers per hour* . The high-speed railway Xinzhou West Station will connect to the Beijing-Xiong-Shanghai high-speed railway in the east, the Beijing-Guangzhou high-speed railway and Jinbao railway in the middle, and the Datong-Xi'an high-speed railway in the west. The position of the road network is very important.









▲On October 1, construction of the Xiongan New Area-Xinzhou high-speed railway officially started. Photo by Fan Xuhui
After the completion of the Beijing-Xiong-Shanghai High-speed Railway from Xiong'an New District to Shangqiu and the Xiongxin high-speed railway project, the railway network structure in the Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei region will be further improved, which will greatly facilitate the travel of people along the line, promote economic and social development along the line, and better serve the Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei region. The implementation of the coordinated development strategy is of great significance.









Photo by Jia Jia
*The railway bravely acts as the locomotive of Chinese-style modernization construction

"Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei on track" will run faster and faster!*



Contributed by: "People's Railway" Newspaper Co., Ltd. Beijing Reporter Station (Media Center of Beijing Bureau Group Corporation)


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## General Huo

*"The cutest big country heavy weapon" successfully completed the task!*
2022-12-12 15:42·China Railway
*Remember this cute "giant panda"?

↓↓↓*










Its "big name" is called

*"Splendid" shield machine*

_It is also the largest diameter earth pressure balance shield machine made in China_










December 12

"Splendid" successfully completed

Splendid Tunneling Mission

*Chengdu to Zigong to Yibin high-speed rail

The tunnel runs through the whole line*










Chengdu-Ziyi High-speed Railway is a high-speed railway connecting Chengdu, Neijiang, Zigong and Yibin. The line is about 260 kilometers long and the design speed is 350 kilometers per hour. There are 11 stations including Xixi Station, Weiyuan Station, Zigong Station, Dengguan Station, Daguan Station, Lingang Station and Yibin Station, among which Chengdu East Station and Zigong Station are existing stations.










The Jinxiu Tunnel is a key control project of the Chengdu-Ziyi High-speed Railway. It is located in Jinjiang District, Chengdu City, Sichuan Province. It crosses from the south of Chengdu East Station to the outside of the South Third Ring Road. It has a total length of 3655 meters, of which the shield tunnel is 2620 meters long and is a single tunnel. Two-lane tunnel. The construction of this section of the tunnel passes through the bustling area of Chengdu. The geological cover along the line is shallow, there are many high-rise buildings on the ground, the existing railways are densely covered, and the pipelines are intricate, making the construction difficult.










In order to safely and quickly promote the construction of the project, relevant participating units jointly developed and built the largest diameter earth pressure balance shield machine "Jinxiu" with completely independent intellectual property rights in my country.










The cutter head of the shield machine is spray-painted with a pattern of a giant panda embracing tender bamboo, which *is called "the most adorable big country heavy weapon" by netizens* . "Splendid" has a total length of 135 meters and a total weight of 3,000 tons. After 14 months of uninterrupted excavation, it successfully completed the mission of excavating the Jinxiu Tunnel.










In the construction process, in order to improve the construction efficiency, the builders innovatively developed a combined bolt with positioning function, which not only improves the quality of segment assembly, but also reduces segment misalignment and ensures that the joint waterproof effect is "drip-proof". . At the same time, they also successfully developed a synchronous grouting reinforcement device for the shield tunnel, which greatly reduced the impact on the existing railway and achieved "zero settlement" under the existing railway.

It is understood that the Chengdu-Ziyi High-speed Railway is an important part of the Beijing-Kunming Passage, the main channel of the "eight vertical and eight horizontal" high-speed railways. After completion, it will further improve the high-speed railway network in Sichuan Province, and will contribute to the integrated development of southern Sichuan and Western Chongqing and the construction of a shipping hub in the upper reaches of the Yangtze River. Has a positive effect.


----------



## General Huo

Mile-Mengzi HSR


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## General Huo

*The opening of the Jinan-Laiwu high-speed railway is imminent! Preview of 5 new stations*
2022-12-24 08:41:50 Source: Jinan Press All Media
Author: Liu Wenzhong
Editor in charge: Ju Yueqin
At present, various projects of the new Jinan-Laiwu high-speed railway have entered the final stage. From November 23rd to December 22nd, the Jinan-Laiwu high-speed railway completed the driving test according to the map, during which 8 pairs of Fuxing EMUs operated according to the map every day.








Ji-Lai high-speed railway is an important part of Shandong high-speed railway network, and the construction of the whole line started on September 18, 2019. The length of the line is 117.49 kilometers, and there are 6 stations in total, namely Jinan East Station (existing station), Licheng Station, Zhangqiu South Station, Xueye Station, Laiwu North Station, and Gangcheng Station. The design speed is 350 kilometers /Hour.








The whole line will be open to traffic soon, and 5 new stations will also make a new appearance. 5 stations with different styles and characteristics, each with its own story.
*　　==Licheng Station==
　　Design theme: "Rising sun, peace in the world"*








The high-speed rail train departs from Jinan East Railway Station and arrives at Licheng Station at the first stop.
The scale of the parking lot is 3 stations and 7 lines (including the main line). The station area is 19,965.5 square meters, with 3,640 seats, 130 toilets, 6 service windows, 6 automatic ticket vending machines, and 36 entry gates.









The main façade of the station adopts a full arched structure, combined with curved glass curtain walls and metal curtain walls, giving the façade a sense of gradual change between virtual and real. The shape cooperates with light and shadow, reflecting the magnificent artistic conception of "seeing the sun through the clouds".
*　　==Zhangqiu South Station==
　　Design theme: "Chinese Longshan, Spring Rhyme Zhangqiu"*








Travel southeast from Licheng Station and enter Zhangqiu.
The scale of Zhangqiu South Railway Station is 2 stations and 4 lines. The area of the station building is 9989.38 square meters.









The waiting hall of the station building is mainly arranged. The left side of the waiting hall is the comprehensive service area, business waiting room, passenger service area, toilet, duty room, public security office, substation, power distribution room, and the right side of the waiting hall is the passenger service area, Toilets, passenger duty room and other rooms and exits. There are 4 automatic ticket vending machines near the entrance of the waiting hall, 4 service gates in the comprehensive service area, and 10 entry gates.
*　　==Xueye Station==
　　Design theme: "Sun, Moon, Stars, Han, Mountains, Rivers and Snowy Fields"*









When the train enters Laiwu, the first stop is Xueye Station.
The scale of the parking lot is 2 stations and 4 lines. The area of the station building is 9988.22 square meters. Public toilets are arranged on both sides of the waiting hall. There are two sets of gates for entering the station, each with 5 seats, 1,200 seats, 4 ticket vending machines, and 4 service windows.









Xueye area is a scenic spot with mountains and rivers interdependent, with beautiful lakes and mountains, and layers of mountains are reflected into the sparkling lake. Combining the functional attributes of the station building with the regional characteristics of the Xueye area, the scheme abstracts the shape of the station building into a "mountain" character symbol. The undulating roof forms a sense of rhythm, which is skillfully combined with the natural background of numerous mountains and mountains, like a landscape painting. , showing the fairyland charm of Xueye.
*　　==Laiwu North Station==
　　Design theme: "Win Qin Zuli, Spring and Autumn Ancient City"*









After Xueye Station is Laiwu North Station.
The scale of the yard is 2 sets of 6 lines (including the main line). The station covers an area of 19,769.4 square meters. There are 3 ticket vending machines at the window, 1 all-in-one ticket vending machine, 5 automatic ticket vending machines (non-cash), and 12 entry gates.









The waiting hall on the second floor of the station is connected with the distribution hall on the first floor, and there are comprehensive service area, police duty room, passenger duty room, passenger service area, business waiting room, VIP waiting room, key passenger waiting room, military waiting room, children's waiting room, Restrooms and equipment rooms in the waiting hall.
The outline of the station building is inspired by the Laiwu Qi Great Wall route map, abstracting its meandering features to reflect the unique local history and culture of Laiwu. The base of the station building adopts thick solid columns, which symbolize the city wall stacks, and at the same time reflect the profound and majestic characteristics of Laiwu. The horizontal partition is printed with dragon and phoenix patterns representing Yingqin culture, showing the unique local culture.
*　　==Steel City Station==
　　Design theme: "clank iron bones, modern steel city"*









Gangcheng Station is the terminal station of Jilai High-speed Railway.
The scale of the parking lot is 2 stations and 4 lines. The area of the station building is 9635.67 square meters. The left side of the waiting hall is the passenger service and ticket checking room, and the right side of the distribution hall is the passenger service, fire control room, comprehensive control room, power substation and other rooms. Number of entry gates: 10, number of exit gates: 5, number of service windows: 5.









The simple and elegant giant column structure props up the overhanging eaves, the overall momentum is majestic and powerful, and it provides more humane care for the flow of passengers entering and leaving the square and the flow of people resting in the square.


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## General Huo

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1605666327129395201


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## General Huo

*With a design speed of 350 kilometers per hour, this cross-sea high-speed rail has made new progress!*
2022-12-20 10:50·World Wide Web
Source: China Railway

Recently, the construction of Fuzhou-Xiamen high-speed railway has been reported again and again

construction of two stations

new progress










*The Fuzhou-Xiamen high- speed* railway starts from Fuzhou in the north and ends in Xiamen and Zhangzhou in the south. , Fuqing West, Putian, Quangang, Quanzhou East, Quanzhou South, Xiamen North, and Zhangzhou 8 passenger stations, of which Fuqing West, Quangang, Quanzhou East, and Quanzhou South are new stations.

*Fuzhou South Railway Station*

Recently, the new station building of Fuzhou South Railway Station

The construction of the main structure of the track layer has been completed

Currently under construction of canopy steel structure and decoration

The housing construction and supporting works of Fuzhou South Station of Fuzhou-Xiamen High-speed Railway is an expansion project. It is located on the east side of the existing Fuzhou South Station. There are 16 lines in Taiwan, and a total of 15 lines in 30 lines after completion.










The newly built station building adopts the "integrated design" strategy of the platform canopy and the old station building, forming a magnificent, stretched and flowing roof outline and skyline image. The old and new station canopies are integrated, and the traditional architectural axis symmetry is continued in terms of spatial relationship. The layout of the building forms a "three-entry courtyard style".










The existing east and west station buildings have added connecting passages at an elevation of 6.6 meters, so that the waiting halls of the existing station buildings and the newly built waiting halls are interconnected in the station, realizing the organic integration of the functions of the new and old station buildings. In the spatial structure design of the station, the station building adopts tree-shaped columns as the space elements, which not only highlights the open atmosphere of the space, but also highlights the urban context of "Rongcheng", presenting "the shade of the banyan gathers blessings, the Silk Road Ark" " design concept.










Effect drawing of Fuzhou South Railway Station

*Xiamen North Railway Station*

Xiamen North Station of Fuzhou-Xiamen High-speed Railway

After the steel structure construction is fully completed

Has been transferred to the metal roof of the main station building

and decoration construction stage

up to now

The metal roof and decoration of the main station building of the station

Completed 85% and 45% respectively










Xiamen North Station is the *most difficult station on the whole line* of Fuzhou-Xiamen High-speed Railway , with a total construction area of 250,000 square meters and a platform scale of 7 sets of 15 lines. After being put into use, the overall scale will reach *13 sets of 27 lines* after being merged with the existing Fujian-Xiamen Railway Xiamen North Station , the number of passengers sent annually can reach 50 million, which is 2.8 times that of the present.

















Rendering of the new Xiamen North Railway Station

During the construction of Xiamen North Station, the construction unit actively promoted the smart construction model, and continued to improve construction efficiency through measures such as deepening the use of BIM technology, promoting numerical control industrial production, and introducing intelligent tooling equipment.










The total amount of steel used in Xiamen North Station is 32,000 tons. The steel structure has the characteristics of large span, complex and changeable structure, and high welding precision requirements. In order to ensure the safety and quality of steel structure construction, the construction unit has developed a steel structure health monitoring system, which monitors the entire process of steel structure construction in real time through 136 chip monitoring points, and escorts the safe and stable construction of steel structures.










The Fuzhou-Xiamen high-speed railway is an important part of the coastal corridor in my country's "eight vertical and eight horizontal" high-speed railway network. After the line is completed and opened to traffic, it will form a "one-hour" economic circle and living circle in Fuzhou, Quanzhou and Xiamen, which will promote the development of the southeast coastal urban agglomeration. Rapid development is of great significance.

Material: "People's Railway" Newspaper Co., Ltd. Jiangxi Reporter Station (Nanchang Bureau Group Corporation Financial Media Center)

Text and picture: Zheng Bo, He Weidong, Yang Cunxing, Wang Wenchenglong, Zhang Guifeng, Wu Chong, Yuan Peng, Huang Yushan, Han Yi

Video: Ho Wai Tung The King and the Dragon


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## General Huo

*This high-speed rail with a design speed of 350 kilometers per hour has successfully "crossed the sea and entered the city"!*
December 24, 2022 at 16:00








The Guangzhou-Zhanjiang high-speed railway is located in Guangdong Province, with a total length of 400 kilometers and a design speed of 350 kilometers per hour. The line starts from Guangzhou Station and ends at Zhanjiang North Station, passing through Foshan, Zhaoqing, Yunfu, Yangjiang, Maoming and other cities.









　　The Zhanjiang Bay Subsea Tunnel with a total length of 9,640 meters is designed as a single-hole and double-track tunnel. It is the only tunnel on the entire line that adopts the shield construction method. The sea area section of the tunnel is 2,500 meters long and the maximum buried depth is 31 meters. The design and construction personnel planned in advance and carefully organized, and repeatedly demonstrated and optimized the special construction plan for the underpass sea area.









　　Before entering the sea, the participating units inspected the construction conditions for the preparations for entering the sea, and established a 24-hour monitoring and control system to monitor the working status of the shield machine in real time.









　　During the construction process, the construction unit built and applied an intelligent management system for shield tunneling to monitor the tunneling machine in real time, dynamically adjust the tunneling parameters, and strengthen the monitoring of the surrounding environment, laying a solid foundation for the shield tunneling machine to safely cross the sea area.









　　During the subsea excavation process, engineers and technicians optimized the tool material and type several times, and replaced the tool in time. Designers and construction technicians conducted in-depth research and analysis on the control of shield construction parameters and the force of the tunnel structure, and solved the problems of long mud and drilling slag transportation distances. After 9 months, the shield machine safely crossed the main channel of Zhanjiang Bay.









　　Up to now, the "Yongxing" shield machine has safely excavated 3,856 meters, more than half of the entire excavation, and will soon switch from "crossing the sea" to "crossing the city" mode.










　　further reading

　　The Zhanjiang Bay Submarine Tunnel of the Guangzhan High-speed Railway is a key control project of the Guangzhan High-speed Railway. The use of tunnels to cross the bay will minimize the impact on the urban landscape, and can avoid the impact of the project on the marine ecological environment and the passage of waterways. At the same time, Zhanjiang is a place where strong typhoons frequently occur. It is safer and more reliable for high-speed rail to cross the sea in tunnels.

　　The Guangzhan High-speed Railway is an important channel connecting the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area with the Hainan Free Trade Port and the Beibu Gulf urban agglomeration. After the line is opened to traffic, it will realize a 90-minute mutual connection between the central urban area of Guangzhou and the central urban area of Zhanjiang, which will play an important role in promoting the regional economic status of western Guangdong and upgrading and optimizing the traffic layout.


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## tjrgx

New high-speed railway operational in China's Hunan


New high-speed railway operational in China's Hunan-



english.news.cn




BEIJING, Dec. 26 (Xinhua) -- A 91-km high-speed railway line, linking the cities of Changde and Yiyang in central China's Hunan Province, entered operation on Monday.

With a designed speed of 350 km per hour, the new railway that connects the 63-km Yiyang-Changsha line has slashed the travel time between Changde and Changsha, the provincial capital, to 59 minutes.

The construction of the newly-opened railway started in June 2019. It is part of a major rail line connecting the southwestern Chongqing Municipality with the city of Xiamen in east China's Fujian Province. This railway is also connected with several high-speed railways and intercity railways in Hunan, serving as a prominent regional liaison line, said Zhang Changchun, a designer with the China Railway Siyuan Survey and Design Group Co., Ltd.


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## tjrgx

Beijing-Guangzhou high-speed railway handles 1.69 bln passenger trips in 10 yrs


Beijing-Guangzhou high-speed railway handles 1.69 bln passenger trips in 10 yrs-



english.news.cn




BEIJING, Dec. 26 (Xinhua) -- A total of 1.69 billion passenger trips have been made on the Beijing-Guangzhou high-speed railway since it went into operation 10 years ago, official data showed.

Thanks to the existence of this railway, travel time between the capital Beijing and the southern economic hub Guangzhou has been slashed from over 40 hours to about eight hours.

As the backbone of the high-speed rail network in China, the 2,298-km Beijing-Guangzhou high-speed railway is closely connected with 12 other high-speed railways in the country.

In June this year, the Beijing-Wuhan section of the railway raised its speed from 310 km/h to 350 km/h, reducing the shortest trip between Beijing and Wuhan, capital of central China's Hubei Province, by about half an hour to three hours and 48 minutes.

At present, China boasts some 3,200 km of high-speed railways with an operating speed of 350 km/h, on lines such as the Beijing-Shanghai High-speed Railway, the Beijing-Tianjin Intercity Railway, and the Beijing-Zhangjiakou High-speed Railway.


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## hkskyline

* High-speed railway links Beijing, Tangshan *
_Excerpt_ 

BEIJING, Dec. 30 (Xinhua) -- A 150-km intercity high-speed railway line, linking Beijing and Tangshan City in north China's Hebei Province, entered operation on Friday.

With a designed speed of 350 km per hour, the new railway line has slashed the travel time between the two cities to around one hour.

This intercity railway has not only facilitated travel for residents in areas close to Beijing but has also improved the development prospects of the city cluster, said He Jin, an engineer with the China Railway Design Corporation.

More : High-speed railway links Beijing, Tangshan


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## Ghostpoet

Xingguo-Quanzhou line opened



http://www.china-railway.com.cn/xwzx/ywsl/202212/t20221230_124888.html



Ghostpoet


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## gao7

Zhongwei-Lanzhou
*New high-speed railway operational in northwest China*
























> Train No. D2763 waits to depart at Zhongwei South Railway Station in Zhongwei City, northwest China's Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region, Dec. 29, 2022. A 219-km high-speed railway line, linking the cities of Zhongwei and Lanzhou, started operation on Thursday. With a designed speed of 250 km per hour, the new railway that connects the Yinchuan-Zhongwei line, has slashed the travel time between Yinchuan and Lanzhou, capitals of Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region and Gansu Province, respectively, to less than three hours. This high-speed railway also completes the final section of a railway loop line involving Shaanxi Province, Gansu and Ningxia. (Feng Kaihua)


New high-speed railway operational in northwest China


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## gao7

*Jinan-Laiwu intra-city high-speed railway put into operation*































> Staff members celebrate the opening of Jinan-Laiwu intra-city high-speed railway at Xueye railway station in Shandong Province, Dec. 30, 2022. The Jinan-Laiwu line, China's first intra-city high-speed railway with a designed speed of 350 km/h, was put into operation on Friday. (Guo Xulei)


Jinan-Laiwu intra-city high-speed railway put into operation


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## 33Hz

What do they mean by "intra-city"? I would take intra to mean inside the same city, but the photo clearly shows open countryside.


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## lechevallierpatrick

They probably mean "Inter-City"...


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## Wouter999

Chinese city areas are fairly large. Both Jinan and Laiwu are located within the same administrative city, which spans 10,000 km2 or about 1/3 of Belgium...


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## lawdefender

In 2022, China completed investment in railway fixed assets of 710.9 billion yuan, and put into operation 4,100 kilometers of new lines, including 2,082 kilometers of high-speed railways.

By the end of 2022, the national railway operating mileage will reach 155,000 kilometers, including 42,000 kilometers of high-speed rail.


In 2023, the main goals of national railways: More than 3,000 kilometers of new lines will be into operation, including 2,500 kilometers of high-speed rail.





全国高铁营业里程达到4.2万公里，今年投产新线2500公里


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## lawdefender

High-speed Railway mileage ranking by Chinese Provinces 2021

1. Guangdong (2458 km)
2. Anhui (2339 km)
3. Jiangsu (2216 km)
4. Shandong (2203 km)
5. Liaoning (2195 km)
6. Hunan (2137 km)
7. Jiangxi (2094 km)
8. Fujian (1904 km)
9. Henan (1886 km)
10. Guangxi (1769 km)







7省跨进高铁里程“2K俱乐部”，长三角和珠三角竟无直通高铁_上观新闻


7省跨进高铁里程“2K俱乐部”




www.shobserver.com


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## skyscraperFunVi

General Huo said:


> *This high-speed rail with a design speed of 350 kilometers per hour has successfully "crossed the sea and entered the city"!*
> December 24, 2022 at 16:00
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Guangzhou-Zhanjiang high-speed railway is located in Guangdong Province, with a total length of 400 kilometers and a design speed of 350 kilometers per hour. The line starts from Guangzhou Station and ends at Zhanjiang North Station, passing through Foshan, Zhaoqing, Yunfu, Yangjiang, Maoming and other cities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Zhanjiang Bay Subsea Tunnel with a total length of 9,640 meters is designed as a single-hole and double-track tunnel. It is the only tunnel on the entire line that adopts the shield construction method. The sea area section of the tunnel is 2,500 meters long and the maximum buried depth is 31 meters. The design and construction personnel planned in advance and carefully organized, and repeatedly demonstrated and optimized the special construction plan for the underpass sea area.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before entering the sea, the participating units inspected the construction conditions for the preparations for entering the sea, and established a 24-hour monitoring and control system to monitor the working status of the shield machine in real time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> During the construction process, the construction unit built and applied an intelligent management system for shield tunneling to monitor the tunneling machine in real time, dynamically adjust the tunneling parameters, and strengthen the monitoring of the surrounding environment, laying a solid foundation for the shield tunneling machine to safely cross the sea area.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> During the subsea excavation process, engineers and technicians optimized the tool material and type several times, and replaced the tool in time. Designers and construction technicians conducted in-depth research and analysis on the control of shield construction parameters and the force of the tunnel structure, and solved the problems of long mud and drilling slag transportation distances. After 9 months, the shield machine safely crossed the main channel of Zhanjiang Bay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Up to now, the "Yongxing" shield machine has safely excavated 3,856 meters, more than half of the entire excavation, and will soon switch from "crossing the sea" to "crossing the city" mode.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> further reading
> 
> The Zhanjiang Bay Submarine Tunnel of the Guangzhan High-speed Railway is a key control project of the Guangzhan High-speed Railway. The use of tunnels to cross the bay will minimize the impact on the urban landscape, and can avoid the impact of the project on the marine ecological environment and the passage of waterways. At the same time, Zhanjiang is a place where strong typhoons frequently occur. It is safer and more reliable for high-speed rail to cross the sea in tunnels.
> 
> The Guangzhan High-speed Railway is an important channel connecting the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area with the Hainan Free Trade Port and the Beibu Gulf urban agglomeration. After the line is opened to traffic, it will realize a 90-minute mutual connection between the central urban area of Guangzhou and the central urban area of Zhanjiang, which will play an important role in promoting the regional economic status of western Guangdong and upgrading and optimizing the traffic layout.


Are they planning the link to Haikou from Guangdong through Qiongzhou strait?


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