# How good are the drivers in you country generally



## Alex Von Königsberg (Jan 28, 2007)

In the USA, the grade would depend on geography. In Oregon, I would give them 4 while in California - 3. Washington state is about 3.5. In Ukraine, I would give drivers 2, and in Russia - 1.5 (I lived and drove in both). While in the USA drivers are too relaxed (hogging left lane, not thinking about others on the road), in Ukraine and Russia driver always seem to be in a hurry with tailgating, illegal overtaking, speeding, etc.


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## H123Laci (Dec 6, 2007)

heres a numero uno driver :lol: :cheers:


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Very dangerous driving.


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## ImBoredNow (Jul 2, 2008)

THe question is ambiguous.
If you mean do they follow the rules appropriately then Indians recieve 1.5
If you mean how good they are in terms of the actual physical driving, then I'd give Indians 4.5
Don't believe me, watch this vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjrEQaG5jPM


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## Olympios (Oct 13, 2007)

1.


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## pijanec (Mar 28, 2007)

Verso said:


> Very dangerous driving.


Look at how many people are using left/overtaking lane for no reason.


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## Timon91 (Feb 9, 2008)

Olympios said:


> 1.


That's a brief reply


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

Looks like Eastern European drivers aren't that good, but at least you guys have alternatives to getting around you city.


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## Skyprince (May 2, 2006)

Malaysia - 4 for drivers, 3 for taxi
UAE - 4 for drivers, 4 for taxis
Thailand - 3 for drivers, 4 for taxis
Japan - 5 for drivers, 3 for taxi
Oman - 4 for drivers, 4 for taxis


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

Timon91 said:


> That's a brief reply


I read bad things about Greek drivers.


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## Timon91 (Feb 9, 2008)

I see  I've been to Crete, five years ago. I don't really remember how the drivers were, but I do remember that Heraklion was a big mess.

By the way, is Thailand the only country where taxi drivers drive better then normal drivers?


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## Olympios (Oct 13, 2007)

Timon91 said:


> That's a brief reply





LtBk said:


> I read bad things about Greek drivers.


Well, 1657 deaths in 2006.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

That accident could happen anywhere.


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## Olympios (Oct 13, 2007)

LtBk said:


> That accident could happen anywhere.


Of course, but it says much more...Despite that she violated the traffic light, the guy with the motorcycle didn't even have a crash helmet.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

LtBk said:


> Looks like Eastern European drivers aren't that good, but at least you guys have alternatives to getting around you city.


I very much doubt drivers in say Moscow are so bad that you'd have to use PT not to get killed or injured on the road. It's not _that_ bad, or else Moscow would vanish in a few days.


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

Some examples of how Estonians drive:


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## ElviS77 (Aug 3, 2007)

It depends a bit on what you evaluate Norwegian drivers. Since motorway experience is limited, I'd rate it 3.5, possibly 4. Highways and urban driving, somewhat better. 4-4.5.


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## ir desi (Dec 9, 2007)

The US varies way too much to give a broadbase grade.
In Boston, the grade is again different based on following rules versus skilled driving
Following rules/avoiding aggressive driving and road rage: 2/10
Being skilled: 6/10
I have twice seen an out of state driver freak out when they see a rotary for the first time and miss the whole "bear right" part, driving directly into the forested area inside the rotary.


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## Jeroen669 (Nov 29, 2006)

Safety-wise: I'd say about 4 - 5, outside of the biggest cities.
Traffic-wise: 2, since people don't seem to care a sh*t about other roadusers who want to drive faster, while the speed limit is already very low...


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## Cicerón (May 15, 2006)

As for Spain, it depends on the area and especially the age. According to my experience, I'd say:

Madrid area: 2/5. Too many left lane hoggers on motorways, tailgating is also practiced by stupid guys with tuned cars :lol: Inside the city, motorbikes usually drive between two rows of cars when stopping at a traffic light. Still, traffic is not that bad for its size.

Mediterranean area: 2.5/5. People tend to drive better than in Madrid on motorways, but sometimes you see insane incorporations and overtaking manoeuvres on normal roads. Sometimes you find a very dense traffic, as it's a touristic area. In some Andalusian cities you still can see people driving mopeds with no helmet.

Center and North-West: 3.5/5. People seem to be more calm here.


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## 187cc (Jun 9, 2009)

In Auckland, New Zealand generally 1 or 2, people get mean road rages and engage in offensive driving (me included heh). Any other place in NZ probably 4.


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

Generally pretty good here in the UK. 

Traffic lights and pedestrian crossings are respected 99% of the time, lane discipline on motorways is generally good, there's very little honking and angry gesticulating compared to other countries i've driven in. Most people will flash their lights to let you past a tight spot in a narrow road or to come out of a side road into a queue of traffic. Speed limits are generally observed pretty well except on motorways where it's normal to travel at 80-90mph when the limit is 70mph. Drink driving is socially frowned upon and most people would never do it.

We have some of the best road death stats in Europe along with Sweden and the Netherlands I think so we must be doing ok.

Of course there are exceptions, people who drive like idiots but most people are fine.


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## Morjo (Sep 10, 2006)

Australia I would give 2 out of 5. I get very frustrated when driving on our roads, especially motorways. On our motorways it's a free-for-all, motorists are all over the place doing all sorts of different speeds, plus you get motorists hogging the overtaking lane and motorists pulling into ones breaking zone without giving sufficient warning.
Also not many drivers turn on their head lights when raining, dark conditions during the day or when there is a lot of sun glare.

There isn't much of an emphasis on safe and smart driving in this country and it's far to easy to obtain a drivers license. If the road authorities don't teach motorists to drive safely and in a smart manner, then this is what you get.
I'm not a perfect driver, I make mistakes from time to time, I'm human after all, but I'm just dissatisfied with the style of driving in Australia.

I've been to Europe, but have only driven in the UK and Ireland, the drivers in the UK are very good, I'd rank them 4 out of 5, though they're hot heads. Ireland I'd rank a 3, they're a bit better than Aussie drivers. I think the reason why the Ireland road toll is quite high it because of all the little narrow roads the have in rural area's, was a scary experience driving on some of those roads.

I thought Italians were crazy though, I didn't drive on their roads but from what I could see, I'd give them a 1 out of five, though most of the crazy dangerous driving was down south.


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## Morjo (Sep 10, 2006)

gramercy said:


> Hungarians: 2
> - NOBODY keeps a safe following distance. NO-BODY
> - nobody gives way for pedestrians @ crossings
> - at least 1/3rd dont use the safety belt
> ...


lol, I remember seeing overhead signs on Hungarian motorways saying to put on your safety belt, I thought that was a bit strange. 
I thought I was going to die when I was getting a taxi ride to the airport, the driver was a nutter :lol:

I loved Hungary though, beautiful women there :cheers:


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## piotr71 (Sep 8, 2009)

In Poland there is getting better and better every year. Though, still may be noticed anger showed by drivers who "must" drive faster than others. Politeness is not a rule. Putting pressure on other drivers with flashing lights is still quite common. In built-up areas we drive 20% over speed limit. Quite a number of us still do not respect "no overtaking" signs. 

We have virtues too  We can react pretty fast facing changes on the roads, unlike drivers in some countries where I have had pleasure to drive. We know what winter is and during snowy time our streets are not paralyzed.






Jonesy55 said:


> Generally pretty good here in the UK.
> 
> Traffic lights and pedestrian crossings are respected 99% of the time, lane discipline on motorways is generally good, there's very little honking and angry gesticulating compared to other countries i've driven in. Most people will flash their lights to let you past a tight spot in a narrow road or to come out of a side road into a queue of traffic. Speed limits are generally observed pretty well except on motorways where it's normal to travel at 80-90mph when the limit is 70mph. Drink driving is socially frowned upon and most people would never do it.
> 
> ...


I mostly agree with all You said, but I let myself to add 2 things which are those I do not like on British roads.

1. One of characteristic driving behaviour of British motorists is keeping up driving on middle lane for no reason, on 3 lane motorways. It happens even if left lane is utterly clear for half a mile.
2. 3 of 5 drivers have problems to merge motorway traffic. Instead of speeding-up, they just slowing down. Probably, a shape of the merging lanes is to blame.

Basically though, I recognize British drivers as most patient and polite people all over Europe (considering about 15 European countries I have driven in)


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## Maxx☢Power (Nov 16, 2005)

Southern France (06):

Driving skills: 3.5/5
Following rules: 2.5/5

* People are generally impatient and drive aggressively, but are courteous towards other drivers. They will let you through to get to your exit, enter a busy road, etc.

* Motorway driving is good. People stay in the right lane (except for when there are 3 lanes, when of course they will stay in the middle lane, leaving the rightmost entirely free), and don't undertake. Indicating lane change is rare though. If it happens, the driver is usually halfway across to the next lane already.

* Traffic laws serve more as a guide than rules written in stone. There exists a second set of unwritten rules on top of this (for example, people will invariably pull to the sides at the lights to let the ever-present scooters and motorcycles through), and as long as you're aware of these it works out kind of ok.

* Park anywhere you want as long as you leave the emergency blinkers on. Parking space is more precious than gold here.

* People are generally alert and quick to respond to changing circumstances. This is really more of a requirement because of the driving style.

* There are of course exceptions. Lots of young drivers with no regard for rules, lanes or common sense. The same young drivers who end their lives in a ditch or smeared all over the road. Road rage exists, and the southern temper can really take this to a new level.


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## Scion (Apr 26, 2008)

China..........I'll let these videos do the talking


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## mubd (Oct 14, 2009)

Australia:3.5 (taxi drivers and truck are a very big exception).
It says left turn on red for a reason, asshole!

For the taxi drivers:1. Of course, Mr Taxi Driver, let the passenger off in the right lane right in front of the bus at the bus stop.
Of course, Mr Taxi Driver, please pick your passenger up at the intersection with the green light.
For truck drivers:0. Of course, Mr Truck Driver, please load your truck in front of the hospital exit.
Of course, Mr Truck Driver, please cut me off in the suicide lane on the Sydney Harbour Bridge and almost push me half a lane into oncoming traffic and then speed off before I can catch a licence plate.
Of course, Mr Truck Driver, please go like a bat out of hell on the 70km/h freeway with your 'SPEED LIMITED 100' truck and go 100km/h in the right lane on a 110km/h freeway.


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## Ban.BL (Dec 26, 2008)

^^what is with Chinese and red lights?


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## Ban.BL (Dec 26, 2008)

*Bosnia *i would say 2,5 
*Croatia *2,5 too much speeding on the motorways
*Serbia *2 generally no respect to other drivers 
*Macedonia *1,5 rules as if non existent 
*Montenegro *1 the craziest and the most irresponsible drivers

But i would increas for all this countries 1p (except Montenegro) when i see all those videos.


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## style (Dec 29, 2006)

Morjo said:


> I thought Italians were crazy though, I didn't drive on their roads but from what I could see, I'd give them a 1 out of five, though most of the crazy dangerous driving was down south.


it's true!! not like asian megalopolis, but very dangerous!
I am a criminal driver in Milan!:lol:


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## IRELAND (Jan 21, 2010)

Has anyone here ever driven in Ireland? We are very bad, i'd give us a 0, you would swear everyone was a learner driver!


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## x-type (Aug 19, 2005)

i think we could easily rename this thread into "do people overall drive for 1 or 2"


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

As somebody said a few pages back, it depends on the state(of the US)you live in. In my state Maryland, I rate it 2/5 or less.

1.Less and less people are using turn signals.
2.Cutting people is common.
3.Drivers pulling in front of you from a side st into an major rd despite high speeds, forcing you to brake hard is common.
4.Left lane hoggers oblivious
5.Cars drive along each other at same speeds, blocking people from passing
6.Almost nobody stops for pedestrians at crosswalks(I admit I did it before)
etc.


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## Morjo (Sep 10, 2006)

piotr71 said:


> 1. One of characteristic driving behaviour of British motorists is keeping up driving on middle lane for no reason, on 3 lane motorways. It happens even if left lane is utterly clear for half a mile.


I like that system, it leaves the left lane for merging and exit traffic and the right lane for overtaking. Though this would only work well in light traffic.


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

You can observe this phenomenon on virtually any motorway that has 3 or more lanes per direction.


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## Morjo (Sep 10, 2006)

ChrisZwolle said:


> You can observe this phenomenon on virtually any motorway that has 3 or more lanes per direction.


Not in Australia hno:
Heck you can sometimes get three trucks abreast on a three lane motorway, the frustration!


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## KiwiGuy (Jul 9, 2009)

For specifically Nelson in New Zealand, I'd say about a 2.5-3. Driving is bad here, as many multilane roundabouts and roads confuse many driver (especially older drivers). The worse case I'd seen was where the road split for a lane to go to a roundabout and the other continued onto a "motorway". There was this woman on the median strip in an 80kph zone patiently waiting for someone to stop, yes STOP to let her in. Pedestrians here are the worst. They are French. They just wander out on a courtesy crossing like it is their right and wonder why the driver blows up with rage.

French drivers: 2. Very scary, as in "grip the seat OH MY GOD WE ARE GOING TO DIE!!!!" scary.


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## Greg95100 (Oct 2, 2009)

Northern France :3
Southern France :2
Paris :1,5


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## piotr71 (Sep 8, 2009)

Morjo said:


> I like that system, it leaves the left lane for merging and exit traffic and the right lane for overtaking. Though this would only work well in light traffic.


Yes, as long as cars on middle lane are moving faster than on left one, leaving enough space to be overtaken, it is, let's say ok. Although, in the UK people very often drive in the middle with lower speed to those keeping left. Such way of driving, forces left lane drivers, who want overtake, to go around slower moving vehicles across whole width of carriageway. This sort of behaviour works against lane discipline, courtesy, logic and traffic code and may be a factor causing traffic jams.



ChrisZwolle said:


> You can observe this phenomenon on virtually any motorway that has 3 or more lanes per direction.


I do agree indeed. Nowhere else though, I have noticed that scale of intensity of the phenomenon. Even overnight it goes in this way.


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## Morjo (Sep 10, 2006)

piotr71 said:


> Yes, as long as cars on middle lane are moving faster than on left one, leaving enough space to be overtaken, it is, let's say ok. Although, in the UK people very often drive in the middle with lower speed to those keeping left. Such way of driving, forces left lane drivers, who want overtake, to go around slower moving vehicles across whole width of carriageway. This sort of behaviour works against lane discipline, courtesy, logic and traffic code and may be a factor causing traffic jams.
> 
> 
> 
> I do agree indeed. Nowhere else though, I have noticed that scale of intensity of the phenomenon. Even overnight it goes in this way.


It's must just be the way they are taught to drive in regards to motorways, which I admire. Though having their inside lane traffic move faster than the middle lane is hazardous.


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## Des (Nov 10, 2005)

crap


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## Wilhem275 (Apr 7, 2006)

I think the "middlesticking" issue should deserve a proper 3d. Seems like the whole world suffers of this bad motoring illness.

Well, I cannot find a cause for this phenomenon, but we can start explaining that in Italy many drivers still apply an outdated Driving Law, which imposed the outer lane on a 2x3 motorway being used only by trucks traffic.

It's been years since the law has been changed to the more logical "keep on the right if lane is free", but only a few, mostly younger people, got the new rule.

So, since in the weekends freight traffic is not allowed, and the worst drivers decide to get on the move all together, any 2x3 italian motorway turns automatically in a "2x2 with overgrown emergency shoulder" 

This is pretty annoying, of course: traffic is generally slowed down with no reason, and sometimes you see some absurd behaviours on the road.
If you're in the middle lane and are being overtaken, and in front of you a slower car is overtaking the air in the right lane, you'll discover that nothing, nothing can make that driver move away. You can flash light, sound horn, praise God... nothing. Probably they would not move even if kicked in the arse :nuts: It's like the extra lane simply doesn't exist.
The air-overtaker will then reluctantly push himself to the edge of the middle lane, as if instead of the right lane there is a dark and deep pit. But just as a courtesy, ok?

Young people call it "the Shame Lane". I've heard that, putting your wheels on that, you'll get Ebola. Some say it will drain out your fuel tank. Some say you get a mandatory sex change, driving on it. Some say it is just a hologram drawn on the emergency lane.
Good Lord. :bash:

Sometimes you will feel the urge to overtake on the right, but please don't allow yourself. Chaos is not an answer to chaos.

The new Driving Law includes fines for those not respecting the "right rule", but nobody is really monitoring the traffic dynamics.
But since we are talking about Italy, we -of course- have found a brilliant backdoor solution! :banana:

Our Police say, on its website, that a special rule applies in this case. In fact, who wrote that has made a widely personal interpretation of a couple of rules.
Btw, the magic rule is: if you're in the middle lane and move right to overtake a vehicle, it is an effective overtake and you get fined.
BUT! If you are travelling on the right lane yet, and you meet a slower vehicle on your left, you are allowed to pass it without changing lane.

Crazy :nuts: Please, don't ask me how you can determine "how much before" you have to move to the right during your travel, to be considered as "yet on the right", since I have no answer. Crazy! :nuts:

Actually they're not so wrong: overtaking on the Shame Lane is much less dangerous than cutting three lanes to and fro. During the maneuver you have to carefully check the movements of just one idiot, instead of the whole motorway.

So, the standard arrangement of a 2x3 on a Sunday is: a crowd of cars tailgating each other, willing to go faster than limit but stuck in the slow jam, then a bunch of daydreaming middlestickers, and then me and some lonely trucker allowed to drive.


Our standard 2x3 motorway. Please note the non-existent safety distance.









Some weeks ago I was driving on the A4 between Verona and Brescia, on a Sunday afternoon, and I was the witness of a phenomenon too absurd to be real.

The cars on the left lane were so much, all willing to overtake everyone, that the lane started to slow down for congestion. And I mean - seriously slowing down, maybe at 80 km/h or so. In the middle, many middlestickers at 100-110. On the right, me and some others at 130 (the limit).

After driving many km on a so arranged motorway, I started asking myself if I had missed a junction and got on the UK M4 instead of the Italian A4 :lol:


Anyway, so much text to say that Italians don't know how to properly use a motorway.
And on standard roads things are not that better, indeed.

Main problem is that the license is given to anyone, with no effort. Just ask and you'll get one, you can't fail even if you're blind. Because people MUST have the right to move around, and since car is the only solution, you cannot deny freedom.

Having probably the worst safety stats in the EU... mmh, who cares? I'm surely the next-gen Schumacher, get out of my way!


Points in real life / Points as perceived by the average driver.

Ability to control the machine: 2 / 4.
Obedience to basic rules: 3 / 5.
Amount of danger on the roads: 4 / 1.
Respect for unprotected users: 0 / 4.
Knowledge and practice of the Law: 1 / _who?_


And they want even higher speed limits.


God bless the truckers. Everyone blames them, while in fact they are the only drivers who know what they're doing, and driving on a 2x3 with trucks is fairly better.


I love to drive following safety and Law rules, but sometimes I feel like an alien down here hno:

Maybe I can make some videos of a standard, everyday trip. Who counts all the mistakes depicted, wins a free walk in Venice. At least there you don't risk to be overrun by a car.

:bash:


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## Richie D. (Feb 6, 2010)

OK, I've been lurking around here for quite a while, but now I felt compelled to register because of this thread.

Anyway, I currently live in Costa Rica, and the drivers in Costa Rica are beyond terrible. On a scale from 1 to 5, they get a zero. They don't respect anything or anyone. Most of the time, when in front of a traffic light, they creep forward in such a way that they're unable to view the lights anymore, which causes a short traffic jam once the lights switch to green (and they try to find the clutch and the stick to shift into first gear). I personally don't do this and simply stay behind the stop line until the light turns green, and people often start honking their horns at me because I don't do what others do. People in Costa Rica only shift into first gear at the last moment, which is another reason for the traffic jams in front of a traffic light.

On a motorway, they are either too slow or too fast. I don't mind fast people as long as they can drive properly and are sober, but they simply don't watch out for any hazards; and in the case of those who are slow, they don't go to the right lane (where they belong, as Costa Rica has right-hand traffic) and fill the left and middle lanes, forcing us to pass them through the right lane (vehicles that tend to jam up the motorways are mostly busses, small transports and lorries).

And to get the driver's licence, you have to learn a whole booklet by memory to pass the theoretical test. And even if you practice with a driving teacher (real driving schools like in Europe and the US don't exist at all), once you get to the stage of the practical test, you're at the mercy of government corruption. Some people may even get forced to pay a bribe to pass the test. In my case, I had to repeat the practical test because the first driving instructor said that I invaded a lane, even though the lanes were NOT properly marked (markings were so faded out, I couldn't see them) and because of lack of signs and markings, I didn't even know if it was a one-way street or not. At the second attempt, I got lucky that I passed because I was the last guy to do the test (and subsequently, the instructor's shift ended with my test). Being the last one and despite shaking out of fear that I may fail again (because of the prior test, where I actually drove perfectly), the guy told me that I passed.

The practical tests consists of an enclosed circuit, where you have to first drive between about four or six cones (at a distance of 6 to 7 metres each), then doing an eight with a Give Way marking and a Stop marking, finally concluding with going in a straight line in reverse. The second part is on the street (when you exit the enclosed circuit, there's a Stop marking that people tend to ignore and because of it fail the exam before it starts). Important to note is that automatic transmission cars are not allowed for the practical driving exam except in certain exceptions, e.g. physical disability. If you're not included in the exception, you have to do the test with a manual transmission.

Bottom line, you learn absolutely nothing during the driver's tests. Driver's Education is basically very rudimentary, if not non-existent. But I believe that even with proper driver's ed, the typical local attitude of not taking certain things seriously is still a reason why driving in Costa Rica can be an adventure, and why I give drivers here a zero. I personally try to abide as much as possible to the way people in Germany drive under the StVO, but even I get provoked a bit of breaking the rules a bit, particularly by my father, who doesn't allow me to even drive alone. He often demands that I drive as aggressively as he does, not allowing people any space, and he yells at me if I don't drive as he says. The only thing I don't have from him is the road rage, and although my father is actually a very good driver, his road rage got worse in Costa Rica, when he previously only sweared at idiot drivers, like I sometimes do. I'm by no means an outstanding driver (I'd consider myself more between decent and mediocre for German standards), but you can't blame me for making an effort to drive as good as possible.

Since Costa Rican driver's licences are not accepted in Germany, as once I'm in Germany, I can only drive another 6 months with my current B1 driver's licence (which is like the Führerschein-Klasse B in Germany) at most, I'll have to go through a proper driver's school or Fahrschule when I return to Germany in two weeks, and have sufficient money to afford going to driver's school (I still need to get a job before I can even think about it  ). So, whatever you've experienced as far as horrible driver's is concerned, come to Costa Rica, where you'll see things that you never thought were even possible (at least as far as bad driving is concerned).


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## CptSchmidt (Jan 7, 2010)

I can't really speak for Canada outside of the Maritimes, but people here are generally pretty good. I'd give them 3.5-4. When I think of what a good driver is, though, I'm thinking how safe they are. 

When it comes to being an all-around 'good' driver, I'd give them a 3 at the most. 

People like to drive ten below the speed limit or go _exactly_ the speed limit in perfect driving conditions. This is very frustrating when most trunk roads and NS routes are only two-lane with passing zones. It's common winding up stuck behind somebody going 85-90kmph in a 100kmph zone. 

People also like to brake when it's unnecessary. If you just skim through any of my driving videos, you'll see what I'm talking about. People don't seem to understand that the second you lift your foot from the pedal you'll start to slow down. Another thing they like to do is brake on the highway, which can be very dangerous. When you're going 100+ and so are the people around you, unless something is in the middle of the road or has jumped in your way, do not not brake - you'll cause an accident. 

Still on highways; a lot of people fluctuate their speed, which can be even more annoying that driving below the speed limit consistently. Sometimes I'll be stuck behind someone going 90 or 100 only to have them speed up to 120, _brake_ down to 110, go to 115 and then brake down to 90 again. And this goes on until I can get around them... I don't understand. 

People are pretty good at signalling, but one thing I notice a lot (and I'm sometimes guilty of myself) is not signalling until you actually start turning. For example, at an intersection I'll indicate into the turning lane but turn it back off until the light turns green; unless I am the first car waiting to turn, I'll keep it on. Most of the time I keep it on the entire time, but sometimes if what I'm listening to is good or interesting the indicator can be annoying. 

Generally on dual carriageways and highways, people will keep to the right letting faster drivers pass them and it's greatly appreciated when people are conscious of this. It's still common, though, to have people camping in the left lane going the speed limit or below, causing a backup of faster drivers who start getting impatient and try to manoeuvre, often unsuccessfully, into the right lane and back into the left in front of the camper. 

When I see New Brunswick, PEI or Newfounland plates I know to stay away from them. Not to knock on people from those provinces, but Halifax is the biggest and closest 'real' city to any of them. When they come here they're often not accustomed to driving in a city and they don't signal, don't go the speed limit, don't know where they're going and randomly change lanes without looking at who's around them. I've noticed, for instance, that PEI drivers like to drive 10-20 below the speed limit - especially on the Halifax Peninsula. I don't know what it is with drivers from PEI, but good lord... I don't know how they do it. 


One thing that I do like about the Maritimes and our drivers is that while there are a lot of idiot drivers, there are a lot more considerate ones. You never have to wait long to turn left across traffic because people will flash their lights at you, letting you turn. Often at stop signs people will wave you through. If you're waiting to turn to join traffic, it's never long before somebody will wave you in. When people block driveways or don't wave thanks to you or refuse to let you in, it's actually considered very rude. I've been told that to expect such treatment in bigger cities is craziness, so I'm glad that even though everybody on the road can be off in their own little world frustrating me by going under the speed limit,

The most annoying thing for me on the road is being stuck behind a left lane camper, seconded by those who can't pick a speed.


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## transport21 (May 6, 2009)

Ireland: 1.5

The main issues are merging onto a motorway, tailgating, blocking the outside lane on a motorway/dual carrigeway, front fog lights on in any condition, rear fogs on sometimes and driving over the limit.


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## Blackraven (Jan 19, 2006)

Philippines: -1 (probably)

Sure there are good drivers that follow rules, are respectful etc etc......but these are less than 10% IMHO. For more than 90% of drivers here, you can expect all forms of disobedience and negligence:

-Certain fucking drivers who still go even at a fully-visible red light
-Certain drivers that do not stay on-course (as if lanes don't exist)
-Slow drivers on fast/passing/overtaking lane
-Fast drivers on speed lanes and emergency shoulder lanes (very dangerous).
-Most drivers here do not know what "YIELD" sign is
-Swerving (as far as moving from leftmost lane to rightmost lane & vice-versa; sometimes even without using turn signals, hand signals or indicators)
-A lot of drivers do not know how to use (or rather don't use) turn signals 
-Public utility vehicles hogging the passenger terminals and waiting areas
-Tricycles and pedicabs that traverse on main roads (even when it's illegal)
-Certain drivers who do not use headlamps at all at night (especially the jeepney drivers); very dangerous safety hazard
-Public utility vehicle drivers that load/unload passengers EVEN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD:bash:
-Reckless bus drivers that race with other buses to compete in getting most number of passengers (and there have been a few motorists that have paid the ultimate price for their selfishness and negligence).

And the list goes on and on

Of course there are many reasons for this.....but imho, one of the main reasons lies in how drivers licenses are issued.

Heck a fellow pinoy SSC forumer was telling us in another thread on how much stricter the driving test in Dubai is compared to ours. He said that he actually had to take the driving test caused he failed even after three takes.

Yet when he took the philippine driving exam, he got a perfect score :lol:.

That and one of the driving tests here (hands-on) only requires you to:
1) Start engine of vehicle
2) move the car forward
3) Stop the vehicle.

And you're done 

Or if you are really lazy, you can bribe the employees of the LTO and/or hire 'fixers' that will do all the paperwork and resort to cheating and deceit so that you don't have to take any driving exam at all (as long as you pay the fixers with good sum of money)

Heck, it's no wonder why there are tons of undisciplined and reckless drivers on Philippine roads today


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## Newropean (Jan 15, 2010)

*Switzerland* I guess a 4,5 would do, the best drivers I've known so far. Thanks to radars and police around everywhere (really everywhere), the rules are followed by nearly all of the drivers, pedestrians and bicycles are respected, and the highways are quite relaxing actually. The big exception are rich guys who test their new Ferraris/Porsches/Jaguars on the motorways, they drive way too fast.

*Germany* 4, they're doing nearly as well, but as I see it, drunk driving is more of a problem there, especially for youth after parties. 

*Czech Republic* 3,5. The improvements of the last years are enormous IMO, they have calmed down a lot and are now quite good. 

*Italy* 3 Not as bad as everyone says, a bit chaotic but I didn't feel in real danger anytime.


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## X236K (Mar 3, 2007)

Newropean said:


> *Switzerland* I guess a 4,5 would do, the best drivers I've known so far. Thanks to radars and police around everywhere (really everywhere), the rules are followed by nearly all of the drivers, pedestrians and bicycles are respected, and the highways are quite relaxing actually. The big exception are rich guys who test their new Ferraris/Porsches/Jaguars on the motorways, they drive way too fast.
> 
> *Germany* 4, they're doing nearly as well, but as I see it, drunk driving is more of a problem there, especially for youth after parties.
> 
> ...


Improvements of driving skills in Czech...? Really...?


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

I haven't seen crazy behavior due to Czechs yet. But I haven't been to CZ recently (apart from the quick tour to Cheb in August), but they drive normally in the Netherlands. Most Polish and Hungarian drivers behave as well. Of course there are incidentally crazy drivers, but you have those everywhere.


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## x-type (Aug 19, 2005)

in HR we often make comments on PL, SK, CZ, H drivers. CZ are the best among them imo. the largest problem i see about them is they are too relaxed. like they think "so what if i overtake that truck on motorway with 100 km/h and make a row behind me". they never drive too fast here like for instance Germans do. the largest problem is they don't feel they could bother somebody with their style of driving.
probably because of slower driving i have noticed overaverage sudden and sharp moves with wheel.

i agree with Newropean about Italians - they are mad in cities, but on motorway probably i haven't seen better drivers!


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## Random_Guy (Dec 14, 2008)

I'd give 2.5 for Polish drivers. The situation has been getting better and better since last few years, but there are still many bad drivers. The main problem, imo, is the dangerous overtaking and excessive speeding. Most of our drivers are way too "wild". I also noticed that they behave way better abroad than in Poland.






hno::lol:


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## X236K (Mar 3, 2007)

To be honest, my personal multiple experince from Croatia is that despite driving 5% over the speed limit, I'm always the slowest making the row behind me. What I personaly feel is a major problem of driving in Czech is lack of respect => dangerous overtiking, speeding, sticking to the left lane. And also trucking since there are many not experienced yound truck drivers.

My most pleasant driving experience comes from Sweden... They've got "5" from me.

Denmark: 4 1/2
Germany, Austria, UK: 4
Czech, Italy: 3
Slovakia, Croatia, most of south countries: 2
Poland: 1 1/2
China: 1

I need to admit that I have never been to US, Switzerland and lets say Costa Rica on the other hand...


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## X236K (Mar 3, 2007)

--


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## Random_Guy (Dec 14, 2008)

About Czech drivers - I remember one funny situation. On Polish A4 between Katowice and Krakow, there was this old Skoda Favorit with Czech plates driving 100km/h (or even slower) on the left line for almost the whole distance (krk-ktw). A line of cars has formed behind him, all barely going 100km/h. Trucks were overtaking them at the right line and Favorit wouldn't leave it. Hilarious.


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## piotr71 (Sep 8, 2009)

If I had to compare Czechs to Poles, I would say our southern neighbours are definitely more disciplined driving in their country as well as abroad. We, Polish drivers, are tend to keep to the traffic rules on foreign roads, not particularly on our own ones. Reason for that is a penalty's weight abroad, in particular when they are calculated in Euros and have to be paid for straight away. I do not know what is the base of the comments in Croatia, however can imagine there are not too high fines for drivers breaking rules in Croatia, what makes Poles plucky enough to drive over the limits.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

New Jerseyites and New Yorkers are sleek , fast , ignorant , rude , drivers :lol: i know i just put down my 2 states , but thats the truth.


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## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

People in the UK are pretty good drivers. People do speed quite a lot, but no one crashes much...


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## JohnnyFive (Jul 28, 2008)

Blackraven said:


> Philippines: -1 (probably)
> 
> Sure there are good drivers that follow rules, are respectful etc etc......but these are less than 10% IMHO. For more than 90% of drivers here, you can expect all forms of disobedience and negligence:
> 
> ...



Yip, I agree on the -1 and even then it could be less like -2 or -3. Having driven all over Metro Manila for a few months I am still amazed, shocked and dumbfounded regarding all traffic every minute I am in the car.

I have driven in countries thoughout Europe, North America and even Asia (Thailand, Taiwan etc) but Philippines wins hands down for the worst drivers.

No rule gets observed or is enforced and in fact the Police also don't observe any rules either. hno:

Driving here has to be one of the scariest experiences you will ever have. It truely is wacky races with terrible, inconsiderate, kamikaze, selfish drivers along with loads of unroadworthy cars, buses and trucks.

It has to be seen to be believed and I literally laugh out loud may times as I cannot believe what I have just witnessed.

:nuts:

Beautiful country and really friendly people who morph into evil assassins behind the wheel :lol:


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## Ban.BL (Dec 26, 2008)

x-type said:


> in HR we often make comments on PL, SK, CZ, H drivers. CZ are the best among them imo. the largest problem i see about them is they are too relaxed. like they think "so what if i overtake that truck on motorway with 100 km/h and make a row behind me". they never drive too fast here like for instance Germans do. the largest problem is they don't feel they could bother somebody with their style of driving.
> probably because of slower driving i have noticed overaverage sudden and sharp moves with wheel.
> 
> i agree with Newropean about Italians - they are mad in cities, but on motorway probably i haven't seen better drivers!


In Bosnia people also comment H, PL, CZ and SK drivers and they are often seen as a bed drivers, very reckless.


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## piotr71 (Sep 8, 2009)

Ban.BL said:


> In Bosnia people also comment H, PL, CZ and SK drivers and they are often seen as a bed drivers, very reckless.


Would you tell what is a main issue with them?


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## shutkaro (Mar 8, 2010)

*Indians are the best drivers in the world*

We Indians are probably the best worst drivers in the world.

On a scale you will have to put us at minus -1000 or something. I dont know if i still be true to myself.

Government only not provides roads with potholes, no road signs.

Highest accident rates in world. One thing we top the chinese for developing world.

Who wants to take any driving lessons when you can bribe/buy one from local agent.

Bad governance of the country, corrupt politicians/officials itsquite shamefull we cannot provide decent services.

But coming back to topic of driving as we are in minus we are pretty cool then....


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## diz (Nov 1, 2005)

People in Oregon in the U.S. are probably one of the safest drivers I've ever seen, considering I used to live in California.

However, seeing as how driving is so simple here, Californians tend to be more experienced and can therefore handle difficult situations easier than Oregonians can.

For example, most Oregonians I know don't know how to parallel park... even with a lot of room. Whereas, people from San Francisco that I know can parallel park in spots that seem to be impossible.

Also, when compared to Oregonians, Californian drivers are total assholes. You can go for a whole month in Oregon without ever hearing a single honk.

---

Oregon: 4.5/5
California: 2.5/5


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## mccol (Sep 11, 2009)

Crazy Korean Drivers 

Series 1-5 , its very interesting.


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## Dr.Mabuse (Jun 6, 2009)

UTHA drivers maybe?


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## CarltonHill (Dec 11, 2011)

*PHILIPPINES*

it actually sucks when it comes to drivers of public vehicles especially buses and jeepneys.. with many of them doesn't know the proper overtaking...


*PUBLIC:* 2/5
*PRIVATE:* 4/5


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

ChrisZwolle said:


> I wonder which drivers deserve truly a 5? Maybe Germans? Though I don't like the fact you're almost being pushed by some bigass car behind you when you overtake a truck with 130 km/h. I guess no one drives perfectly.


Passing a truck with a lousy 130 kmh is pretty dangerous in Germany, hahaha.

Germans themselves think they deserve a 5 generally (there's yearly polls by the ADAC that annually come to that conclusion) but I think it's more of a 3 really. There's a pretty wide spread "Deputy"-mentality which I find supremely annoying. Other countries are much better in that aspect.

On German motorways I get routinely annoyed by Dutch (They actually call them "Die Gelbe Gefahr" around here...), Belgians and Danish drivers who just have a really hard time getting used to the realities of life around here. I have to admit that when I drive in their respective countries and adjust to the general way of driving there it is pretty relaxed (and sometimes even enjoyable) but then, Germany is not a country you can cross in 2 hours in every direction so we need to go a bit faster around here. I mean, The Czech and Austrians have a pretty small country too and they simply adjust when on a german motorway. I've never been held up by one of those (or Swiss for that matter) and there's plenty of those up and down the A 3 as well. 

My favourite country to drive in is Italy though. I generally like driving in southern Europe (I also include France, Portugal and Spain here) because people are going faster in general and they also have a habit of getting out of each other's way. That may get hectic at times but I guess I like that when I'm driving. Sue me... 

As for overseas, I've only driven in the USA (several 10000 miles though) and they have a similar style than Germans, just at half speed. They hog lanes, they think they are always in the right and never make way. It's less annoying because they have more than 2 lanes per direction most of the time and their trucks go as fast as the regular traffic and in most areas the population density is just WAY lower. At least passing on the right isn't illegal in the US or I'd probably be on Death Row by now...


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

X236K said:


> My most pleasant driving experience comes from Sweden... They've got "5" from me.
> 
> Denmark: 4 1/2


Seriously...?  I guess you also like to watch DVDs or read a book or take a nap while you drive ?


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

Comfortably Numb said:


> - Tailgating (even at 70mph)
> - Weaving in/out of lanes like crazy
> - Talking on cellphones while driving on the expressway
> - Exiting right at the last minute, cutting across 3+ lanes
> ...


You are describing my Boston experience there


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## DanielFigFoz (Mar 10, 2007)

transport21 said:


> Ireland: 1.5
> 
> The main issues are merging onto a motorway, tailgating, blocking the outside lane on a motorway/dual carrigeway, front fog lights on in any condition, rear fogs on sometimes and driving over the limit.


That's harsh, even in my short life I've noticed a big difference in Irish driving standards, its gotten much better than it used to be. What I like about the Irish is that they sort of pull into the hard shoulder on single carriageways so you can overtake


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

DanielFigFoz said:


> That's harsh, even in my short life I've noticed a big difference in Irish driving standards, its gotten much better than it used to be. What I like about the Irish is that they sort of pull into the hard shoulder on single carriageways so you can overtake


They do that also in Italy, but it annoys me. Doing something illegal (occupying the shoulder when there's no emergency) in lieu of letting some body else do something illegal (overtake with the continuous line) is not the way to go.


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## Penn's Woods (Apr 8, 2010)

Stahlsturm said:


> ...At least passing on the right isn't illegal in the US or I'd probably be on Death Row by now...


Actually, it is (at least in some states); it's just that no one knows it because it's unenforced.

New Jersey's threatening to start enforcing it - or rather the other side of that coin, the keep-right-except-to-pass principle - but I'll believe it when I see clear left lanes.


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## verreme (May 16, 2012)

Compared to what I have seen in other European countries, driving in Spain is just OK for me. Sure there is plenty of middle-lane hogging, tailgating or bad use of indicators (when none at all) in roundabouts or in lane changes, but I've seen that everywhere, so I take it for granted. Most (95%) people don't drive recklessly, adjust their speed to road conditions and observe a high percentage of the rules. Driving in big cities, especially in Barcelona, may be more hazardous than usual because of the high amount of motorcycles and scooters, but it only takes you an hour or so to get used to it.

So, I think that compared to other Euro drivers, we are just average. No big surprises to expect when you come to Spain from another country.


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

^^ My experience with Spain drivers is twofold: polite and unobjectionable in motorways, aggressive and undisciplined within city limits (at least in Granada).


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

verreme said:


> Compared to what I have seen in other European countries, driving in Spain is just OK for me. Sure there is plenty of middle-lane hogging, tailgating or bad use of indicators (when none at all) in roundabouts or in lane changes, but I've seen that everywhere, so I take it for granted. Most (95%) people don't drive recklessly, adjust their speed to road conditions and observe a high percentage of the rules. Driving in big cities, especially in Barcelona, may be more hazardous than usual because of the high amount of motorcycles and scooters, but it only takes you an hour or so to get used to it.
> 
> So, I think that compared to other Euro drivers, we are just average. No big surprises to expect when you come to Spain from another country.


I agree with you on every word.

Netherlands: better then it used to be, since they have introduced harsh law enforcement on lane hogging.

Belgium: Average

Germany: Used to be fast but disciplined, but these days are long gone now. Although driving habits differs from region to region, to many Germans drive either aggressive, leaving no distance, or slow on an overtaking lane. On the Bundestraßen Germans have fully lost the plot. No good driving to be found in Germany on secondary roads. Extremely slow, with sudden breaking and distracted drivers, makes Germany one of the worst countries to drive in off the motorway. Of course there won't be a single German driver agreeing with me here...

England: A mixture of bad and good drivers. And they are miles apart from each other. Has one of the worst lane disciplines in Europe.

Sweden: Ok, not much traffic, but Swedes often forget to switch back to the inside lane after overtaking. They move swiftly when a faster car approaches.

France: Best country to drive in. Metropolitan areas excepted, French have the best lane discipline and steady speeds. Minor irritation is the French leaving indicators on when overtaking, and not switching them off when moving back to lane one. Major irritation, when this overtaking vehicle does it on the middle lane. 

Italy: Either slooooow on the middle lane, or aggresively fast on the overtaking lane. Italians love headlights flashing, wanting you to get out of the way, even when your are on somebody's ass yourself. Slight improvement in lane discipline in northern Italy.

Denmark: Slow and unsure. Lane discipline nihil. Not a very nice driving style.

Switzerland: See Denmark.

Austria: Major improvement in lane discipline. No clues on roundabouts, and major irritation: First breaking, then indicating. 


Poland, Czech, Romania, Slovakia: Aggressive or slow. Will never ever give way to you, they will not let you in and due to using maximum road space, they will leave an inch behind you. Skoda´s, made in Poland Fiats's, Lada`s and Trabants of course excepted, and there are a few of those about. No lane discipline. 

These are my comments as a European express delivery driver in a van, speaking out of my own experience.


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## DanielFigFoz (Mar 10, 2007)

g.spinoza said:


> They do that also in Italy, but it annoys me. Doing something illegal (occupying the shoulder when there's no emergency) in lieu of letting some body else do something illegal (overtake with the continuous line) is not the way to go.


It's done in Ireland even if there is a broken line. It's not like they continuously occupy the shoulder, its just for a minute, even the Garda does it. In Ireland it's not illegal on single carriageways anyway


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

I did it in Ireland. In Greece it appears to be a way of life, driving on the shoulder.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Stahlsturm said:


> On German motorways I get routinely annoyed by Dutch (They actually call them "Die Gelbe Gefahr" around here...), Belgians and Danish drivers who just have a really hard time getting used to the realities of life around here. I have to admit that when I drive in their respective countries and adjust to the general way of driving there it is pretty relaxed (and sometimes even enjoyable) but then, Germany is not a country you can cross in 2 hours in every direction so we need to go a bit faster around here.


Do you think they only go to the first town across the border? Many of them cross the entire Germany, unlike Germans.


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## hofburg (Jun 27, 2009)

my thought when I exit Germany for Austria or France: thank god for speed limits!  Germany could be fun for about 1h of driving, then its just annoying.


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## snowdog (Mar 27, 2011)

ChrisZwolle said:


> I wonder which drivers deserve truly a 5? Maybe Germans? Though I don't like the fact you're almost being pushed by some bigass car behind you when you overtake a truck with 130 km/h. I guess no one drives perfectly.


That never happens to be, guess I'm always the one in someone's mirror :lol:.

I love German drivers and absolutely hate Dutch on unlimited sections of the autobahn, who love to create trains of blocked traffic by throwing their city car into the left lane without mirroring at dangerous low speeds.


Generally speaking I dislike most 45+ drivers, and prefer to be on the road with people between 20 and 30 years old, they generally ( always exceptions) have the best lane discipline, and know what the throttle is.


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

^^Read my post about Germans.


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## snowdog (Mar 27, 2011)

Road_UK said:


> ^^Read my post about Germans.


Don't care about ''small distance'' or ''aggressive driving''.
Haven't noticed the poor lane discipline yet, usually no problems holding 180km/h on average on the unlimited sections if it's calm traffic.


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## solchante (Jan 6, 2010)

A German roundabout


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## snowdog (Mar 27, 2011)

Why hard if you can do it easy, if there's nobody else around (or if I'm not hindering anyone) I'd do the same...


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## musiccity (Jan 5, 2011)

Americans are generally decent drivers, I'd give us a 3.8/5. There are enough crazy drivers to bring the score down.

I've lived in a country with some of the highest traffic fatality rates in the World (Qatar) so I know first hand when a country has bad drivers. Qatar definitely gets a 1.

From what I've experienced, the best drivers in the World are in Western Europe particularly Germany. I've been on the German autobahns and Germans are amazing!


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

snowdog said:


> Why hard if you can do it easy, *if there's nobody else around (or if I'm not hindering anyone)* I'd do the same...


That's not what's going on in the video though.


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## Blackraven (Jan 19, 2006)

JohnnyFive said:


> Yip, I agree on the -1 and even then it could be less like -2 or -3. Having driven all over Metro Manila for a few months I am still amazed, shocked and dumbfounded regarding all traffic every minute I am in the car.
> 
> I have driven in countries thoughout Europe, North America and even Asia (Thailand, Taiwan etc) but Philippines wins hands down for the worst drivers.
> 
> ...


Indeed

We have dangerous swervers that don't even use signal lights when turning, some public utility vehicles (i.e. jeepneys, buses, pedicabs, etc.) that DO NOT EVEN USE HEADLAMPS at night :bash:.... and often than not, lanes DO NOT exist here. In fact, other slacker drivers just 'create' their own lanes (i.e. their vehicle in-between two marked vehicular lanes).

We definitely have driving environments that will scare off any foreigner.:lol:

In short:
Driving here in Metro Manila is like going into a warzone. You are like a soldier that has to stay alive in a battle amongst other vehicles. 

Anyways, here's a video that you might find interesting. It's a BBC documentary featuring a man from the United Kingdom (works as a London bus driver) who comes to Manila to experience what it's like to drive a jeepney in the chaotic streets of our capital........as well to experience the extreme poverty that is faced by millions of local Filipinos each day.


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## Jeroen669 (Nov 29, 2006)

solchante said:


> A German roundabout


Most german roundabouts are larger and have a physical inner circle, so they're not that chaotic as in this video.


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

Roundabouts are in all sizes and shapes, even in Germany.


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## european_driver (Sep 1, 2010)

In my opinion:

Polish drivers:
Generally: 2-2.5 
6-8 years ago: 1.5 (visible progress)
Lot of young drivers: 1.5 (recklessness, to fast driving, showing off, inexperience)
Lot of sales representatives or business car driver: 1 (bitterness, recklessness, too fast driving)

Majority people driving correctly (80%), but some lower rate (20%)

The greatest Polish drivers sins:
- to risky overtaking
- breaking rules
- too high speed
- still too little kindness (but visible progress)
- blocking left lane large distance from narrowing (during trafic jam)
- no signal maneuver
- sit on rear bumper (too little distance from the preceding car)
- flash lights on rear (rarer than some years ago)

I think that major cause of unsafe driving in Poland are too mild penalties (too low tickets rates) for road offenses

Another countries:

Montenegro: 1 (The most crazy drivers whenever I see. Additionaly difficult mountains roads)
Lithuanian truck drivers: 1 (too high speed, risky overtaking)
Italy: 3
Austria: 5
Croatia: 4
Germany: 4 (no restricts on highways causes that some people drive too fast)
Slovakia: 2.5
Czech Republic: 3.5
Netherlands: 5
France: 3
Hungary: 3.5
Slovenia: 4


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## hofburg (Jun 27, 2009)

that crossroad must have been recently changed to roundabout.


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## DanielFigFoz (Mar 10, 2007)

There's plenty of driving over mini roundabouts in the UK, there's one near where I live where if try to go around it, the chances are, that you'd drive into a brick wall, because it s simple too tight to drive around.


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

Quite interestingly, yesterday during my entire trip Brescia-Bologna-Brescia, vast majority of bad drivers (in terms of lane discipline and breaking speed limits) were Germans and Austrians. Especially during my return trip in the night: I suspect foreign drivers just cannot resist empty motorways


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## CarltonHill (Dec 11, 2011)

A sample video of driving in the *Philippines*

*Bay City Metro Manila (Reclamation Area)*
(The area is split between Pasay City on the north side and Parañaque City on the south side.)





^^ those white vehicles with yellow license plates are taxis..


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## verreme (May 16, 2012)

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ My experience with Spain drivers is twofold: polite and unobjectionable in motorways, aggressive and undisciplined within city limits (at least in Granada).


I've never driven in Granada, but as for the rest of Andalusia and Spain, I don't think drivers are _particularly_ aggressive and/or undisciplined in cities. I mean, not more aggressive or undisciplined than in other countries I've been on. Madrid or Barcelona are of course different.

Driving on Spanish motorways is pretty relaxed and safe, although many people don't just understand that they have to keep some distance with the car in front. Middle-lane clogging is also an issue. But as I said in my previous post, you will find that everywhere in the known universe.



hofburg said:


> my thought when I exit Germany for Austria or France: thank god for speed limits!  Germany could be fun for about 1h of driving, then its just annoying.


I think the other way round :lol:

Love driving in Autobahnen. It sure has its drawbacks (traffic, construction zones with 4 lanes in a single carriageway, low speed limits at night for noise reasons), but the fact that you can safely drive 180+ km/h with the cooperation of other drivers that are used to it wipes them all.



CarltonHill said:


> A sample video of driving in the *Philippines*
> 
> *Bay City Metro Manila (Reclamation Area)*
> (The area is split between Pasay City on the north side and Parañaque City on the south side.)
> ...


Those boulevards, and that way to navigate roundabouts, remind me of Valencia.


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## snowdog (Mar 27, 2011)

verreme said:


> I think the other way round :lol:
> 
> Love driving in Autobahnen. It sure has its drawbacks (traffic, construction zones with 4 lanes in a single carriageway, low speed limits at night for noise reasons), but the fact that you can safely drive 180+ km/h with the cooperation of other drivers that are used to it wipes them all.


I agree. 

Speed limits are not of these times anyhow, cars are more n more safe yet we're stuck 20-30 years in the past with the current speed limits. Sometimes locally even worse limits now than 30 years ago.

We don't live in 1980 ffs, we have safer and faster cars now!
Speed limits on the motorway are only ''financial advisatory speeds'' imho, unless there's a camera/speedtrap/section control, I will always ignore the limit gladly and drive what I consider safe, this easily means 170-180km/h in the late hours even in Holland. 120 km/h ( or even 100 km/h) at 3am is quite frankly retarded. I find the war against speed in some countries ( cough Switzerland) barbaric and unnecessary abuse of power by the state, and I have no idea how people can support that kind of crap when they're bordering to a country which still has a normal idea about car traffic.


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

I disagree. Although speed limits in some countries are too low, there is a road safety issue involved as well. It has nothing to do with safety of cars, but more about controlling your vehicle, and it is a proven fact that a lot of road deaths are due to excessive speeds. Italy for example is desperate to reduce road deaths by stricter enforcements of its speed limits. France has done the same, and deaths on their roads have reduced massively . And what you consider safe, may not be safe to others at all. Speed limits are there for a reason. Germany is the only country with stretches of motorway without speed limits. Do you think other countries can handle the same, in particular in area's where people cannot be trusted to drive as fast as they want?


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## snowdog (Mar 27, 2011)

Road_UK said:


> I disagree. Although speed limits in some countries are too low, there is a road safety issue involved as well. It has nothing to do with safety of cars, but more about controlling your vehicle, and it is a proven fact that a lot of road deaths are due to excessive speeds.


Your opinion: A lot 
My opinion: A small minority. You don't try to reduce deaths by lowering speed when the reason for the accident is something else, you enforce the reasons why an accident happens in the first place ( like not respecting the right of way). I know reducing speed reduces the amount of deaths even if the accident is caused by a different reason, but imho it's unacceptable to lower the speed limit for this reason, enforce the actual CAUSE of accidents instead, rather than a factor in the accident.



> Italy for example is desperate to reduce road deaths by stricter enforcements of its speed limits. France has done the same, and deaths on their roads have reduced massively.


Where do you draw the line between mobility&freedom VS safety ?
I highly doubt the ''massively reduced deaths'' are only because of speed enforcement.


> And what you consider safe, may not be safe to others at all. Speed limits are there for a reason.


Imho the wrong reasons.

You don't see the same whingers in Poland where the road safety is far worse yet they increased 130>140 km/h...



> Germany is the only country with stretches of motorway without speed limits. Do you think other countries can handle the same, in particular in area's where people cannot be trusted to drive as fast as they want?


Most motorways in the Randstad in Holland can easily yes, you are driving on 2x3/2x4/2x5 empty flat&straight roads, well lit, nowhere near any wildlife...

You can literally see miles ahead and even put one extra (or more) lane(s) as an overtake buffer...

Examples:
A16 Rotterdam>Breda
A15 Rotterdam>Spijkenisse
A12 All the way from The Hague to Utrecht & beyond.
A4 Den Haag>Amsterdam
A13 in it's whole.
A2 's Hertogenboch>Amsterdam


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

snowdog said:


> Your opinion: A lot
> My opinion: A small minority.


No, it's a fact that high speed is the leading cause of road accidents, followed by alcohol.


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## hofburg (Jun 27, 2009)

is the high speed also the main cause on motorways?


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

Road_UK said:


> Italy for example is desperate to reduce road deaths by stricter enforcements of its speed limits.


No, this is just for administrations to get money with speed controls. In Italy the company owner of a highway has the possibility to increase the speed limit from 130 Km/h to 150Km/h on highways with at least 3x2+emergency lane and with safety tutor system (even if nobody never increased it so far). Fatalities in Italy have as first cause alcohol and drugs. A drunkard driving at 80 Km/h is much more dangerous than somebody driving at 150-160 km/h. It's simply statistic: in 2009 the 76% of crashes was on urban roads, causing 72,6% of injured and 44,7% of deaths. 
Of course, with higher speed limit you must have also good driving skills...and in a country where still you can buy your drive license with "right friendships" without do any exams, this is still not possible here.....


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## snowdog (Mar 27, 2011)

Verso said:


> No, it's a fact that high speed is the leading cause of road accidents, followed by alcohol.


No it is not:

http://www.swov.nl/cognos/cgi-bin/p...gevallen,%20bestuurders%20en%20slachtoffers&L

In 2009 in Holland,
124 of the 19,378 accidents were caused by an excessive speed.
only 21 out of 597 casualties, died due to excessive speed.

Sure speed plays a big factor in most accidents regardless of course, but saying a lot of accidents are caused by speeding is nonsense. Propaganda by all kinds of organisations and governments. By far the largest single cause of deaths is not giving/getting right of way.


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

Road_UK said:


> On the Bundestraßen Germans have fully lost the plot. No good driving to be found in Germany on secondary roads. Extremely slow, with sudden breaking and distracted drivers, makes Germany one of the worst countries to drive in off the motorway. Of course there won't be a single German driver agreeing with me here....


Well, I'd love to disagree but unfortunately there are a large number of drivers here just like you describe them. Especially on Sunday afternoons.


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

Verso said:


> No, it's a fact that high speed is the leading cause of road accidents, followed by alcohol.


You are wrong. The cause is not "high speed", it's inappropriate speed for a particular situation. There's a VAST difference here.


Add...: And how did this mutate into another discussion about speed limts ?


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## CarltonHill (Dec 11, 2011)

*Metro Manila Skyway & South Luzon Expressway, PHILIPPINES*


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

snowdog said:


> Your opinion: A lot
> My opinion: A small minority. You don't try to reduce deaths by lowering speed when the reason for the accident is something else, you enforce the reasons why an accident happens in the first place ( like not respecting the right of way). I know reducing speed reduces the amount of deaths even if the accident is caused by a different reason, but imho it's unacceptable to lower the speed limit for this reason, enforce the actual CAUSE of accidents instead, rather than a factor in the accident.
> 
> 
> ...


Not even in Germany have they got unlimited speed limits in areas with high volumes of traffic. In the Ruhrgebiet I can only think of the A2 between Oberhausen and Dortmund, all other motorways are limited to between 80 and 130. 
In the Netherlands it is impossible to apply unlimited speed limits on their motorways. High volumes of traffic, compared with this weird Dutch ambition to jump on an overtaking lane without looking would reduce life expectancy in the Netherlands. You sound like a boy racer to me, but many Dutch citizens are drivers who are not too sure on how to handle themselves behind the wheel. I see them in Germany everyday, and the phrase "das Gelbe Gefahr" is not without reason. 

*Top Causes Of Car Accidents*

Car accidents don't happen out of the blue, as there is always a cause for affect. Even with today's safety technology, millions of people die each year in car accidents. 
*Some of the most common causes for car accidents are listed below:*
*Speeding *- Despite the law and increased awareness, speeding is still the top cause of car accidents. As long as humans want to get to places fast, and car manufacturers make automobiles that can break speed limits, then speed will continue to be a killer. The faster the car, then the more time it takes to stop and the more deadly the impact. If a car crashes at 60mph, the force released is more than double what it would be at 40mph.
*Weather *- Something we have little control over is the weather. Conditions such as fog, rain and snow increase the chances of an accident, obscuring driver's sight and making it harder to stop in time. When driving in bad weather you should take all the recommended and necessary precautions to remain safe.
*Drunk Driving* - Being drunk whilst driving puts yourself and everybody around you in danger. It impairs your judgment, so you are likely to take more risks  and you'll probably become more aggressive towards other motorists. The main problem with drunk driving is your reflexes. It can take the brain more than twice the amount of time to send messages to your limbs so simple things like turning corners become problematic.
*Sleepiness* - Being tired at the wheel is selfish and stupid. Drivers, who crash their vehicles when falling asleep at the wheel, account for more than 100,000 US car accidents per year. (National Traffic Safety Administration). If you have a long journey to make then share driving duties with another person and take regular breaks. If it becomes too much hit a motel for a nap, or pull over at a truck stop.
*Distractions* - Driving should take your full attention, looking away for a split second can cause an accident. This includes things like changing the stereo, using a mobile phone, interacting with passengers and even slowing down to look at scenery or other accidents.
Abiding by the law and using your common sense can prevent all of these causes of car accidents. And remember, just because you are a responsible driver doesn't mean other people are so stay alert.


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

Weather has little to do with accidents. Weather+speeding does. But it's not weather fault: it just lowers the speed limits, but it is still speeding that kills you, not the weather.


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

Speed is usually a factor, not necessarily a cause. Very few fatal accidents are directly the result of speeding (i.e. it is not the leading cause).


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

ChrisZwolle said:


> Speed is usually a factor, not necessarily a cause. Very few fatal accidents are directly the result of speeding (i.e. it is not the leading cause).


As I wrote before, it is when speed is inappropriate in any given situation when there's a problem.


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

I disagree with Chris. For me speeding is the key factor. If you die in a 40 km/h accident, you should have driven at 30.


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

g.spinoza said:


> I disagree with Chris. For me speeding is the key factor. If you die in a 40 km/h accident, you should have driven at 30.


You can die even stumbling while walking, also you don't have to walk anymore?


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

Satyricon84 said:


> You can die even stumbling while walking, also you don't have to walk anymore?


Usual reductio ad absurdum.
We're talking about car accidents, not silly things.


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

g.spinoza said:


> I disagree with Chris. For me speeding is the key factor. If you die in a 40 km/h accident, you should have driven at 30.


Yes, but there are situations where you reasonably can drive 40 and there are those where you should drive slower because of traffic, weather and a bunch of possible other reasons. That is what I mean by speed that's inappropriate for a situation. And as an experienced driver one has to constantly assess the situation and make sure that speed and the surrounding match. That is how you get home safely and isn't that what we all want ?


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

g.spinoza said:


> We're talking about car accidents, not silly things.


"If you die in a 40 km/h accident, you should have driven at 30". This is silly, cause you just generalize on a thing that has too many variables, giving blame just at speed. Maybe driving at 30 km/h you die the same, having bad luck to find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong moment.


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

I'm not talking about speed limits set by authorities. I'm talking about speed appropriate to the conditions (traffic, road layout, weather). If you go too fast considering all these, an accident is much more likely to kill you than if you go slower.


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

g.spinoza said:


> I'm not talking about speed limits set by authorities. I'm talking about speed appropriate to the conditions (traffic, road layout, weather). If you go too fast considering all these, an accident is much more likely to kill you than if you go slower.


This is what we are saying, that speed has to be appropriate to the conditions and not set by authorities. 130 Km/h driving a Ferrari is not the same than 130 Km/h with 1988 Fiat Panda, but for the law there's no difference.


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

^^ What you say may be correct, but we were talking about weather, not Ferrari&Pandas.


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ What you say may be correct, but we were talking about weather, not Ferrari&Pandas.


Yeah, but you can drive curves at a rather different speed with a Ferrari than with a Panda. Same with braking skills. Not that I'd know just what you can do with a Ferrari but I know the difference just between my Audi 80 and my Alfa 156. There are things I can do safely with one but certainly not with the other.


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

^^ I never said otherwise, I never mentioned Audis, Ferraris, Pandas and I do not care about them. I was talking about weather, and the fact that to me weather does not kill while driving (unless you're hit by a lightning), but speeding does. Do not quote my sentences talking about other things because I do not care.


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ What you say may be correct, but we were talking about weather, not Ferrari&Pandas.


It's the same thing, lately models of cars have technologies that permit to drive in bad conditions almost as in good conditions, while there are cars that shouldn't be on road neither if the road is empty, drove by people that should drive only a mower. But authorities give blame always to speeding, just cause is the most simple thing to punish and the most remunerative. Germany is the example, with no speed limits on the 45% of the highways, higher speed on extraurban roads and in general worse weather conditions especially in winter, has less fatalities than Italy with all his speed limits, safety tutors, radar controls and all these stuff... http://www.omniauto.it/magazine/17877/sicurezza-stradale-lo-spread-con-la-germania-e-di-439-vite


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

g.spinoza said:


> Do not quote my sentences talking about other things because I do not care.


I was trying to explain (maybe not well enough...) that with different cars you can drive differently under adverse conditions because they are better equipped to deal with such. And, that knowing how your car handles makes a great deal of difference.

Plus, in principle we are all agreeing with you so quit being such a disagreeable grump


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

Stahlsturm said:


> Plus, in principle we are all agreeing with you so quit being such a disagreeable grump


I'm not a disagreeable grump :nuts::troll:


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## verreme (May 16, 2012)

ChrisZwolle said:


> Speed is usually a factor, not necessarily a cause. Very few fatal accidents are directly the result of speeding (i.e. it is not the leading cause).


That's the point. In Spain, #1 cause are distractions. Speed, of course, makes accidents worse. But it is hardly the cause.

I think governments enforce speed limits not because speeding is the main cause of accidents or tickets make money, but because it's easy to control. Current technology makes it really cheap. Pursuing dangerous driving requires a lot of policemen on the roads, and this is really expensive compared to a speed camera.


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

g.spinoza said:


> [...] weather does not kill while driving (unless you're hit by a lightning)[...]


Slightly off-topic, but you'll almost certainly survive a lightning hit on your car. It's the Faraday cage principle 

As for speed: more speed will almost always make an accident worse. The only exception I can think of now would be a rock falling which you'd evade due to your speed being higher or so. Pretty much everything else results in a higher chance in damage, injuries or casualties.

On the other hand, speed isn't very likely to cause an accident on quiet motorways. Only the speed difference between cars can become an issue. On almost all other roads however, it will require inhuman reaction times for many situations, which could cause accidents just due to the relatively excessive speed.

So I guess I agree with most that has been said here.


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

Glodenox said:


> Slightly off-topic, but you'll almost certainly survive a lightning hit on your car. It's the Faraday cage principle


I am a physicist, I know


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## snowdog (Mar 27, 2011)

Road_UK said:


> Examples:
> A16 Rotterdam>Breda A16 Breda to Moerdijk has been upgraded to 130 km/h. --- After that tunnels, merger lanes and traffic is deemed too dangerous
> A15 Rotterdam>Spijkenisse --- High volumes of traffic and tunnel
> A12 All the way from The Hague to Utrecht & beyond. ---Volume of traffic and noise reduction in build up areas
> ...


Sorry forgot to repeat, I meant at night, as per the post before that. When traffic volumes are extremely low.
I don't care about day speed limits as regardless of speed limits it's often physically impossible to go much faster anyhow.
All the examples I give were assuming 11pm>5am...

Secondly, what is your source ? I want numbers or an objective source, not some rubbish propaganda...
''some of the most common causes'' is vague. What percentage of accidents (and in what country) is caused by speeding ?
Again, I understand speed is a factor in accidents, but it is not the cause, that is propaganda by stupid organisations and misinformed government.

Only ''noise reduction in build up areas'' is rubbish, that should not be a factor.
Aside from that, I meant at night in all my examples. I mostly travel at night anyhow for the longer journeys, makes a FAR more relaxing drive.




g.spinoza said:


> Usual reductio ad absurdum.
> We're talking about car accidents, not silly things.


He is making a just as silly statement as you. 


g.spinoza said:


> I'm not talking about speed limits set by authorities. I'm talking about speed appropriate to the conditions (traffic, road layout, weather). If you go too fast considering all these, an accident is much more likely to kill you than if you go slower.


Yeah, so what ? Do something about the cause of an accident rather than the speed factor.


> I disagree with Chris. For me speeding is the key factor. If you die in a 40 km/h accident, you should have driven at 30.


''key factor'' is not the same as cause.

Regardless that speed is a key factor, you should reduce the CAUSE of an accident, not a factor in the accident. 
By your logic we should make cars drive at speeds that kills are highly unlikely, like 30 km/h.


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

A key leads to a cause. This is a load of bullshit I am reading here. Speed kills. It's a tag line in the UK. I speed myself at times, especially at night. In Germany I will go up 170 km in my van, in France. Italy and Austria 140... But speed kills.

A driver drives at 140 km/h through a narrow street in a 30 km/h zone. It's a dead end street, and at the end of it is a brick wall. He crashes and dies. By your logic, it's not the speed that killed him, but that brick wall.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

> There's a pretty wide spread "Deputy"-mentality which I find supremely annoying.


Please explain this.


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

snowdog said:


> ''key factor'' is not the same as cause.


Talking about silly statements... hno:


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

I'm with you, G...


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

Road_UK said:


> I'm with you, G...


Yes, I noticed  
One of the few times we agree on something


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

Road_UK said:


> A driver drives at 140 km/h through a narrow street in a 30 km/h zone. It's a dead end street, and at the end of it is a brick wall. He crashes and dies. By your logic, it's not the speed that killed him, but that brick wall.


"Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you". Jeremy Clarkson


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

Satyricon84 said:


> "Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you". Jeremy Clarkson


LOL I like that!


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## seem (Jun 15, 2008)

Slovakia -


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## european_driver (Sep 1, 2010)

^^ unfortunately similar sceners quite often are visible also in Poland


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Stahlsturm said:


> You are wrong. The cause is not "high speed", it's inappropriate speed for a particular situation. There's a VAST difference here.


Yeah, if you drive 5 km/h through a curve, you might get hit by someone coming with 40 km/h from behind not seeing you because of the curve, but usually it's about driving too fast, not too slowly. "Inappropriate speed" is just a more proffesional expression, but it almost always means a "too high speed" (unless you're talking about speed limits, which may be too high in a certain situation, in which case I agree with you).


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## hofburg (Jun 27, 2009)

I think he meant more like high speed isn't always inappropriate, if it corresponds to the road and driving conditions.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

^^ I meant _too_ high speed.  At first I wanted to write just "speed". I guess some people would be asking me what kind of speed I'm talking about. :lol:


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## snowdog (Mar 27, 2011)

There's a great difference what is appropriate for the conditions and what the government wants you do drive...

eg.
https://maps.google.nl/?ll=51.86064...=TxwPylqK1hsP1CbjbGtSDg&cbp=12,320.58,,0,2.75
100km/h there at night is just idiotic.


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## DanielFigFoz (Mar 10, 2007)

One thing which people do a lot in Portugal and is good, is when something happens on a motorway at night, and people start to break, they also turn their hazard lights on, which sends a message to the cars behind who also turn their hazard lights down and then get to slow down more slowly. It does happen in the UK too, but not as much


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

Also somebody mentions German driving depends on region. Which states has better drivers? Bavaria? Hessen? NRW? Saxony?


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## gabyyy (Nov 16, 2011)

If you think you are bad driver, take look at this, it will make you feel better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAZCmaDm-2o&feature=player_embedded


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

snowdog said:


> There's a great difference what is appropriate for the conditions and what the government wants you do drive...
> 
> eg.
> https://maps.google.nl/?ll=51.86064...=TxwPylqK1hsP1CbjbGtSDg&cbp=12,320.58,,0,2.75
> 100km/h there at night is just idiotic.


And who should be deciding what is appropriate? You?


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

LtBk said:


> Please explain this.


I'm referring to people who are glued to the left lane going 5 under the speed limit even though there'd be plenty of space to let someone pass. But they think "We're not allowed so you're staying behind me". It's a good thing I'm not in power anywhere or I'd come down on that like a ton of bricks. Not having that option I simply pass them on the right (which is illegal too but MUCH less sanctioned than tailgating) and they can flash their high beams at me in frustration as they disappear in my rearview mirror.


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

Road_UK said:


> And who should be deciding what is appropriate? You?


Who else ? I'm the one who IS in the situation, not some stocky buerocrat who has likely never even seen the stretch of road I'm on.


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

LtBk said:


> Also somebody mentions German driving depends on region. Which states has better drivers? Bavaria? Hessen? NRW? Saxony?


I think that's actually too general still. I notice that drivers with big city plates usually drive more aggressive but also a LOT more skillful while drivers from rural areas (which you can usually spot easily by them having 3 letters before the dash on their licence plate) are a lot more relaxed but easily panic and do weird things when in a tight situation. I think it has to do with the environment they usually drive in.

Warning young and inexperienced drivers of the so-called "Drei Buchstaben Fahrer" is equivalent to warning them of the "Gelbe Gefahr". Both indicate not necessarily a bad driver but one unused to the conditions that apply on an Autobahn and thus, prone to reactions one might not exactly anticipate. After a few years you actually develop a sense for them.


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

g.spinoza said:


> I'm not a disagreeable grump :nuts::troll:


You're not ?  :angel:


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

Stahlsturm said:


> Who else ? I'm the one who IS in the situation, not some stocky buerocrat who has likely never even seen the stretch of road I'm on.


Right, that's it then. Abolish all speed limits! 

Question: How old are you and your Dutch friend?


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

Road_UK said:


> Right, that's it then. Abolish all speed limits!
> 
> Question: How old are you and your Dutch friend?


I don't even know my "Dutch friend" to be honest but I'm going to be 45 next month and I've been driving (accident free) since I was 18 so rest assured, I know what I'm talking about. 

And nobody said to abolish ALL speed limits, I know plenty of those that make a LOT of sense but I also feel that in many instances the urge to regulate by an overboarding buerocracy just goes way too far (and that's actually a rather global observation, not just limited to traffic) and should be questioned a lot more.


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

I question a lot of speed limits, but you and that flying Dutchman give the impression that hardly any accidents are speed related, and you both feel you can put your foot down wherever you want. Boy racers if you ask me, and these are the sickos that wind up in hospital in the first place!


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

Road_UK said:


> I question a lot of speed limits, but you and that flying Dutchman give the impression that hardly any accidents are speed related, and you both feel you can put your foot down wherever you want. Boy racers if you ask me, and these are the sickos that wind up in hospital in the first place!


I doubt I still count as a boy, racer or otherwise at my ripe age but have it your way 

I think it is an oversimplification to blame accidents on speed. Of course speed is involved but the real problem is the not paying attention to what's going on. In my experience you only end up in situations where you suddenly are way too fast for the situation by not having paid attention beforehand. And people who are used to always have a limit set before them stop paying attention. Why do you think it is that the Autobahn is still the safest road there is (at least that is what German traffic statistics tell us). It's not because we can go 250 kmh, it's because we pay attention. Less and less, sadly but still more than many others. I recall a study in Denmark where they raised the speed limit on certain stretches of motorway and the accident numbers actually went DOWN instead of the carnage that was prophecized by the media and the Green Party.

I hope you can understand that to me speed limits are just one facet of a much grander problem.


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## Galro (Aug 9, 2010)

Road_UK said:


> And who should be deciding what is appropriate? You?


The driver already have to decide for himself what speed is appropriate for the journey despite what ever the speed limit may say. If you aren't capable of doing that, then you aren't capable of driving.


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

Stahlsturm said:


> Why do you think it is that the Autobahn is still the safest road there is (at least that is what German traffic statistics tell us). It's not because we can go 250 kmh, it's because we pay attention. Less and less, sadly but still more than many others.


I think this is the principle that makes the "shared space" project works. You take off signals and traffic lights and leave drivers free to drive according own conscience. In towns like Bohmte in Germany this worked well and accidents dropped a lot. No signals means more attention, more attention means less crashes.


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## snowdog (Mar 27, 2011)

Galro said:


> The driver already have to decide for himself what speed is appropriate for the journey despite what ever the speed limit may say. If you aren't capable of doing that, then you aren't capable of driving.


+1

The government stops allowing drivers to think for themselves these days.


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

Verso said:


> (unless you're talking about speed limits, which may be too high in a certain situation, in which case I agree with you).





hofburg said:


> I think he meant more like high speed isn't always inappropriate, if it corresponds to the road and driving conditions.


I mean, you can't trust a posted limit either way. You need to pay attention to what's going on around you. You need to know your car and how it handles under different conditions and then drive accordingly. Speed and Speed limits is just one of many factors.


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

snowdog said:


> +1
> 
> The government stops allowing drivers to think for themselves these days.


And that summs it up. THAT is my main complaint. It also goes much further than just driving. Warning labels, labels on food etcetc. Regulations where you look and I always wonder, "My God, how did we survive all these millenia without ? "


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## Surel (May 5, 2010)

Stahlsturm said:


> And that summs it up. THAT is my main complaint. It also goes much further than just driving. Warning labels, labels on food etcetc. Regulations where you look and I always wonder, "My God, how did we survive all these millenia without ? "


The point is, that we did not. The society looked much worse all those millenia than it looks now. Most of the population was just screwed all that time...


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

Surel said:


> The point is, that we did not. The society looked much worse all those millenia than it looks now. Most of the population was just screwed all that time...


Point of views. In my opinion this society is just more materialist than in past, often based on "what you have" and not on "what you are"; just slaves of goverments that want us all the same and see us like a herd of sheeps, saying you even what you have to think and say in the name of a "political correctness"


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Stahlsturm said:


> labels on food


I wouldn't buy food without that. But we're drifting away from the topic.


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

Surel said:


> The point is, that we did not. The society looked much worse all those millenia than it looks now. Most of the population was just screwed all that time...


I partly agree. Of course, due to the (more or less working) rule of law we do live much better and more safe than a century ago. But, in order to achieve that, is it really necessary to over regulate ?

I mean, I'm a convinced European and I think that the many states of Europe growing together is a great thing after all those centuries of being at each other's throats, usually at the whim of some noble blue-blooded bastard or (in more recent times) at the call of some Austrian with a funny moustache. BUT to get there, is it really necessary to regulate by law the size of bananas ? I think not...

Or, different example. In recent times (the last 2 years) 3 different family breweries from around here, who each have been in business for several centuries had to be closed down because in order to keep running they had to invest over 100000 EUR each, not because their equipment was broken but because their equipment did not comply with EU regulations and thus went out of business.

In the end all these regulations which supposedly make us all safe and healthy will decimate the variety of life and will leave us with nothing but mediocracy.

Sorry for going so completely off topic by now  I'm just trying to explain the motivation behind my somewhat controversial (to some at least) opinion.


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## Surel (May 5, 2010)

Satyricon84 said:


> Point of views. In my opinion this society is just more materialist than in past, often based on "what you have" and not on "what you are"; just slaves of goverments that want us all the same and see us like a herd of sheeps, saying you even what you have to think and say in the name of a "political correctness"


So you would prefer to actually live in e.g. 15th century when majority of the population were literally slaves? The government allways sees its subjects as sort of sheep. The difference between past and now is that the government is formed not by few but by many and is quite limited in its actions by law. By the same law that you criticize. Exactly due to the laws that bind us to certain conducts.

There is huge difference between regulation, law and dictatorship. You are puting an equal sign in between which is wrong. No regulation lands like e.g. Somalia are great examples of the rule of power (thats sort of natural regulation if you like) and in fact the country is formed by small dictatorships, just like as the early mediavel Europe. On the other side countries like North Korea are full with laws and regulation (many of which are again sort of shadowy unwritten), but their purpose is not to provide the society with some framework, but to sustain and support the ruling hegemony.

Thus as you can notice, it is very important to distinguish to whom the laws and regulation serves. In general, laws that serve only to the tiny fraction of population are contraproductive, backwards and destabilizing.

The assumptions that no laws and regulation on the road would actually provide better driving experience for everyone are faultly and equaled to assumptions that society without e.g. constitution would be better than a society with it. No, it wouldn't, it would be masacre.

Seemingly "no regulation" situations can exists in very small groups. The point is that very small group evolves its own unwritten code of conduct which it keeps to. The misbehaveour is recognized very fast and punished severly very fast.

I understand that it seems not very attractive having to bow ones head and accept certain code of conduct. The prospect of not obeying and getting more personal profit is very strong and actually purpoted by the general popular culture. Not obeying makes sence when there is clear unjustice going on, because yes, in this case not obeying directs into the abolishing of the unjustice and improving ones situation. However, not obeying to generally accepted principles may bring in short term personal profit, but in most of the times worsening of ones situation and also worsening the situation of the whole society.

The history of the human race is a history of cooperation versus parasiting on that cooperation. It only depends on which side one want to stay. Just note that parasite cannot survive without a host and cannot parasite on another parasite. Thus population of parasites is directed to extiction, whereas cooperating population will thrive. The problem of every population though is that parasites that dont respect the rules allways emerge. Maybe it brings some evolutionary advantage... who knows.


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

Verso said:


> I wouldn't buy food without that. But we're drifting away from the topic.


Have you never bought fresh food from a farmer's market ?


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

Stahlsturm said:


> And that summs it up. THAT is my main complaint. It also goes much further than just driving. Warning labels, labels on food etcetc. Regulations where you look and I always wonder, "*My God, how did we survive all these millenia without *? "


Wanna compare death rates today and two thousand years ago? :nuts:


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

Stahlsturm said:


> Have you never bought fresh food from a farmer's market ?


Yes, and in Italy they have to clearly state where and when they are grown/fished/butchered.


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

Surel said:


> The problem of every population though is that parasites that dont respect the rules allways emerge. Maybe it brings some evolutionary advantage... who knows.


I agree with most of your points. The real problem however is that a growing number of people feel that those regulations aren't made for the benefit of all of us but to sustain those who are buddy buddy with politicians.

When a community places speed traps (after artificially reducing the posted limit) on 4 lane through roads instead in front of schools then you know something is terribly wrong.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Stahlsturm said:


> Have you never bought fresh food from a farmer's market ?


Only fruits and vegetables. I wouldn't buy meat without a label (unless I bought it from a friend).


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

g.spinoza said:


> Wanna compare death rates today and two thousand years ago? :nuts:


Well, there were probably less deaths caused by reasons of people's stupidity than today and way more by war and execution. Your point is ?


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## Surel (May 5, 2010)

Stahlsturm said:


> I partly agree. Of course, due to the (more or less working) rule of law we do live much better and more safe than a century ago. But, in order to achieve that, is it really necessary to over regulate ?
> 
> I mean, I'm a convinced European and I think that the many states of Europe growing together is a great thing after all those centuries of being at each other's throats, usually at the whim of some noble blue-blooded bastard or (in more recent times) at the call of some Austrian with a funny moustache. BUT to get there, is it really necessary to regulate by law the size of bananas ? I think not...
> 
> ...


There certainly exists ridiculous regulations. The point is, that whenever there is a regulation to be made or abolished you should be looking at QUI BONO... those people that profit from certain regulation the most are most likely also behind it. So if there is regulation that gets small family breweries out of business I would expect it is becuase there is big business behind this... e.g.


When the food labels were already mentioned I could mention also very strict food legal standards that were in power in e.g. communist Czechoslovakia but had to be abolished in order to be accepted by the "free markets". In the end everything boils down to do fact of strengt and influence.

But to stay on roads, this whole is applicable to the traffic regulations, norms, standards etc. Let it be car making industry, or safety road features.


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

Stahlsturm said:


> Well, there were probably less deaths caused by reasons of people's stupidity than today and way more by war and execution. Your point is ?


I haven't got the statistics in front of me, but the amount of people getting killed on the roads are definitely dropping, as it has done for decades...
Don't get me wrong, I find some of the downgradings as ridiculous as you do, but I agree with crack-downs on accidents...


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

Surel said:


> There certainly exists ridiculous regulations. The point is, that whenever there is a regulation to be made or abolished you should be looking at QUI BONO...


I know... And our politicians who supposedly are making decisions for the good of all of us stand around with their dicks in their hands (bad) or let themselves bribe by lobbyists into going along (worse) and we, the people get to suffer the consequences. Doesn't that make you want to throw up your hands and scream in frustration ? It certainly does that to me...


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

Road_UK said:


> I haven't got the statistics in front of me, but the amount of people getting killed on the roads are definitely dropping, as it has done for decades...
> Don't get me wrong, I find some of the downgradings as ridiculous as you do, but I agree with crack-downs on accidents...


As do I. Accidents cause traffic jams. Traffic jams cause annoyance to me. But limits are no replacement for applied intelligence or vice versa, if someone is an idiot no limit is going to fix that.

When I went to work this morning someone had just managed to pile his car on top of a guard rail right in the exit of the Autobahn. I don't know just how the guy did that but I'm pretty sure that it had to do with slipping on wet asphalt (it had been raining for some time) and the exit is a (not exactly sharp) 90 ° right turn. Must've been too fast. But was the reason speed or idiocy ? Do we need a limit there now ?

http://maps.google.de/maps?hl=de&ll=48.991229,12.103436&spn=0.007237,0.013711&t=h&z=16


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

Verso said:


> Only fruits and vegetables. I wouldn't buy meat without a label (unless I bought it from a friend).


Yeah, with raw meat I'd be careful too but I have bought many a salami on italian, french or spanish markets over the past 25 years and I'm still alive. I don't think we need a law from Brussles exactly regulating how long and how thick the sausage has to be, or do we ?


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

A combination of speed, stupidness and a wrong view of the situation perhaps. There is a Mr Bean in all of us, and no authority or God or Allah can do anything about that...


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## Surel (May 5, 2010)

Verso said:


> Only fruits and vegetables. I wouldn't buy meat without a label (unless I bought it from a friend).


Yeah. Notice, how you implicitely assume that the label on that package actually contains right information. That is vital, because what you don't know what is it you are buying, you dont have any way how to find out, unless you inspected the whole process of getting that piece of meat into the shelfs, which is absurd.

Thus, your ability to buy is based on the trust in the seller. If there would not be any regulation, you wouldnt have any guarantee that you are actually buying what you are thinking you are buying. The whole business would not be possible and everyone would be worse off. This whole is thus only possible because of trust that is between the buyer and the seller. This trust is guaranteed by the punishment implied by the law. The law should create such a sanctions and control mechanisms that the seller is not tempted to cheat on you in what he puts on the label (or in the package) because it would be to him more costly than the profit he would made by cheating. Sure, the whole thing could also be different. You would have your private lab where you would examine the food you buy. But this arrangement would be terribly ineffective.

This trust could be created e.g. in a small community where you get your daily groceries from you neigbours garden and in return you provide him with the meat from your pigs. The trust would be created by the fact, that you both know that you depend on each other for the life. In modern society this is not possible. The more productive society cannot offer such arrangement. It has to be institutionalized.


The same logic applies to the roads. A driver on a road has to have certain trust to the other drivers, that they will behave in a way that doesnt endanger him and that allows comfortable using of the infrustructure. The only way how you can establish such a trust are sever sanctions for misbehaviour, which make it clear for everyone that if he doesnt adhere to the rules he would be worse off. Such arrangement persuades you that others behave in appropriate way and thus you dont need to worry using the infrustructure. It makes using the infrustructure possible without much additional costs on your side (e.g. buying huge tanks and drive them to feel safe, etc) similarly to the food example.


In both cases the regulation actually makes the innovation (infrastructure or supermarket) feasible.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Stahlsturm said:


> I don't think we need a law from Brussles exactly regulating how long and how thick the sausage has to be, or do we ?


There's no regulation from Brussels about that. And I never said I agreed with regulations about cucumbers having to be straight (which is for easier transportation, btw).


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

Surel said:


> So you would prefer to actually live in e.g. 15th century when majority of the population were literally slaves? The government allways sees its subjects as sort of sheep. The difference between past and now is that the government is formed not by few but by many and is quite limited in its actions by law. By the same law that you criticize. Exactly due to the laws that bind us to certain conducts.
> 
> There is huge difference between regulation, law and dictatorship. You are puting an equal sign in between which is wrong. No regulation lands like e.g. Somalia are great examples of the rule of power (thats sort of natural regulation if you like) and in fact the country is formed by small dictatorships, just like as the early mediavel Europe. On the other side countries like North Korea are full with laws and regulation (many of which are again sort of shadowy unwritten), but their purpose is not to provide the society with some framework, but to sustain and support the ruling hegemony.
> 
> ...


I have to say that living in the 15th would have its charm, certainly it would have positive and negative things. Some valors that there were at that time now they are gone and this is bad. About your sentence "government is formed not by few but by many and is quite limited in its actions by law. By the same law that you criticize" makes me understand you not live in Italy  ...here government change laws as it want, is enough to see that we have a prime minister that nobody elected, old ministers that made laws to save own ass, judges that should be guarantors of the law but they use it according their own mood and so on, i could continue all day long. 

Back to the topic about road, I'm fully convinced that no regulations on road would be better cause you obligate drivers to take much attention while driving and this is showed in those cities where they experiment the "shared spaces" project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space. This experiment showed that drivers can regulate themselves in abscence of signs better than when there were traffic lights and signals. You said that it would be a massacre a road without regulation; statistics in these towns where the road is not regulated by any law give you not right


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

Stahlsturm said:


> Well, there were probably less deaths caused by reasons of people's stupidity than today and way more by war and execution. Your point is ?


My point is "how did we survive these millennia without" is one of the most nonsensical statements ever. Whose answer is "Worse than with".


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

Verso said:


> There's no regulation from Brussels about that. And I never said I agreed with regulations about cucumbers having to be straight (which is for easier transportation, btw).


I was asking a rethorical question, hence the wording and smiley  I in no way meant to imply you agreed with such regulations.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Satyricon84 said:


> I have to say that living in the 15th would have its charm


I seriously doubt.


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## Surel (May 5, 2010)

Stahlsturm said:


> I know... And our politicians who supposedly are making decisions for the good of all of us stand around with their dicks in their hands (bad) or let themselves bribe by lobbyists into going along (worse) and we, the people get to suffer the consequences. Doesn't that make you want to throw up your hands and scream in frustration ? It certainly does that to me...


It makes me want to do :evil: things... .

But the point is that we as humanity are on a good way. This was much worse in the past wherever you look. And good laws and regulation that bring us certain institutions are the most important factor in why it got better.


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

Satyricon84 said:


> Maybe you go/went to SummerBreeze or Wacken too?


The last Wacken I was at was in 2002 and the last Summerbreeze in 2004 I think. I prefer smaller festivals, that way it doesn't take me 2 days to get off the parking lot after it's over. Because (to get back to the original topic...  ) if you think Germans drive bad on country roads, check them out after 5 days of drinking on a Metal festival. It's a nightmare.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Satyricon84 said:


> I'm metaller, 15th century atmosphere would be home sweet home. :lol: Dark Medieval times as Surel said :rock:


You would've probably been burnt at the stake. :lol:


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## Surel (May 5, 2010)

Satyricon84 said:


> I'm not talking of no regulations in a way of complete anarchy, but regulation written by the good sense that most of people have (who doesn't have good sense won't be stopped neither by written laws). Talking about governments would be a very complex argument and too much offtopic, speaking about it concerning roads, giving the right, roundabout rules, etc are set by the good sense of driving... a sort of "10 commandments" for the driver. All the rest for me should be just indicative and not a rule according to own conscience and skills. We don't need a rule to know that you can't drive 100Km/h into a town cause there are people and you can kill somebody besides yourself or park the car in the middle of way.... if somebody does such things is simply stupid, with or without laws.


If we dont need them, they probably would have never been introduced... The written or unwritten laws create good sense. You are not born with it, although you are born with certain predispositions to more or less accept it.

If one argues so much for no need for rules, because we know them already and conduct according to them, why would one feel in any way limited by them? That doesnt make simply sense to me.

One either thinks that the rules are not proper and ones judgement is better. Because ones judgment is at even with the rules, ones judgement constitute the rules.... something that is not true, nor good.

Or one just cheat on himself and one doesnt like the rules limiting him, although he knows one should not be doing this or that with his car.


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## Stahlsturm (Mar 30, 2012)

Satyricon84 said:


> Well, as the proverb says "better to live a day as lion than 100 as sheep". Just the end is the same for everybody so what makes the difference, is what your did when you were alive


That sounds like something one of those (for some strange reason) revered 19th century German philosophers has written. One of those who never travelled outside of their native village except when transported to the local lunatic asylum in their mid 30s where they died of syphilis.


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## Surel (May 5, 2010)

Satyricon84 said:


> Well, as the proverb says "better to live a day as lion than 100 as sheep". Just the end is the same for everybody so what makes the difference, is what your did when you were alive


You would have most probably been born, lived and and died as a bondservant. And that would have meant you had been lucky already.

The point is, you would have had very little chance of living like a lion as opposed to today...


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

Surel said:


> If we dont need them, they probably would have never been introduced... The written or unwritten laws create good sense. You are not born with it, although you are born with certain predispositions to more or less accept it.


This reminds me some strange american laws I read like "in Forth Thomas, KY, dogs cannot molest vehicles" or that in Arizona is forbidden to have at home more than two dildos :doh:


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

Stahlsturm said:


> That sounds like something one of those (for some strange reason) revered 19th century German philosophers has written. One of those who never travelled outside of their native village except when transported to the local lunatic asylum in their mid 30s where they died of syphilis.


I dont know who has written it, but the concept in general is not so much wrong. At least for me


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

Surel said:


> You would have most probably been born, lived and and died as a bondservant. And that would have meant you had been lucky already.


Who knows, maybe I could be a knight or a brigand or a merchant  Maybe I could have more chance in life than now, or ....who knows, we can talk all day long about these hypothesis, just doesn't change anything. In the doubt, I find those times charming the same even my favourite historic period is the american far west :banana:


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## verreme (May 16, 2012)

Just the chances of dying a slow death (in the 15th century) with no morphine to calm your pain should creep you out. Sure there were less regulations, but development has its drawbacks too.


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## italystf (Aug 2, 2011)

Satyricon84 said:


> I dont know who has written it, but the concept in general is not so much wrong. At least for me


Don't know the origin, but it was a famous fascist slogan used by Mussolini to justify our young boys dying like "heroes" while fighting for a "noble patriotic cause".


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## italystf (Aug 2, 2011)

Stahlsturm said:


> And that summs it up. THAT is my main complaint. It also goes much further than just driving. Warning labels, labels on food etcetc. Regulations where you look and I always wonder, "My God, how did we survive all these millenia without ? "


What kind of argument is this? When the world was simpler, less regulations were required because there were less thing that needed to be regulated. Technological progress must be followed by law progress.
How could food labels existed when meat, fruit and vegetables were sold directly from farmers to customers within the same village and no packed food existed?
To stay on topic, Italian highways had no speed limit until 1973 simply because few vehicles could do more than 130 back then.


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## Skyprince (May 2, 2006)

Road accident deaths & injuries are on decline in Malaysia..


* Kematian = Deaths
* Cedera parah = Severe injuries
*Cedera ringan = Minor injuries
* Jumlah = total 












Source: Malaysian Police Facebook page 
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...76632521.42335.161086313901684&type=1&theater


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

Good to see roads getting safer there. kay:

Here are UK road deaths over the past 80 years.










The latest figure for 2011 was 1,901 fatalities including 883 car occupants, 453 pedestrians, 362 motorcyclists and 107 cyclists. This was actually a slight rise compared to 2010 after several years of steep falls, this was possibly due to some very bad winter weather.


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

UK drivers are generally ok, but the worst in the world on motorways though.


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

In the world???


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

Well, perhaps not in the world, but lane discipline is not a problem in the UK. Because there isn't any...


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

In the SE especially where the motorways are usually very busy I find that people often don't pull in as soon as they should after overtaking, probably because they might not be able to get back out again with the constant stream of passing cars!

Outside the SE though I think it's much better


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## Penn's Woods (Apr 8, 2010)

Jonesy55 said:


> Good to see roads getting safer there. kay:
> 
> Here are UK road deaths over the past 80 years.
> 
> ...


What constitutes "very bad winter weather" in the UK? ;-)


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

Let me put it this way:
One 0.0000001 inch of snow in the UK and:

-Kids don't go to school
-Heathrow closes
-Trains stop running
-People abandon their cars on the hard shoulder


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

:lol: Not quite, we had plenty of snow and night time temps down below -20c for several weeks round my way, my kids school didn't close at all and I had to go to work every day as the trains were not cancelled once.


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