# [A] Austria | road infrastructure • Autobahnen in Österreich



## radi6404

Can someone please post pics of austrian highways, i could not find any topic with Austrian motorways here, why is that? I want see some Austrian motorways, Tunnels and also some great mountain pictures.


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## wyqtor

This would be a good place to start with - a very cool site IMO:

http://members.a1.net/wabweb


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## x-type

or who doesn't speak german - direct link to galleries: http://members.a1.net/wabweb/frames/abbilderf.htm


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## radi6404

Very impressive pics, very advanced motorways and tunnels, really good work the Austrians did.


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## ChrisZwolle

I've been to Austria 2 times, both in Tirol, but i don't like the Autobahn signage. The Germans and Swiss did better work there on the signage.


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## x-type

Austria has quite messy signage. not as much as France, but far from clear. font and arrows are extremely archaic. motorway intersections are mostly not lightened in night. quality of the roads is solid, but you can find bad sections, esp. at A2. often there are no names and lenghts of viaducts written. 
when they change those things, i'll appreciate them more. but till then - sorry


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## Bahnsteig4

*Vienna's S1 (Außenringschnellstraße)*

This might be the beginning of an "Austrian Motorways" thread. Though it might just as well not be.

*S1 (Außenringschnellstraße)*

The S1 is Austria's latest motorway. It was opened in April 2006 and has largely managed to attract a lot of transit traffic that earlier had to take the A23, straight through the city. It will be extended to total length of ultimately 57 km around the East/South-East of Vienna.


















Length: 16.2 km
Provinces:
*Lower Austria
Vienna*

A journey East-West (Schwechat-Vösendorf)

Since VIE airport is located in Schwechat, this motorway has become my best option to get there from where I live.

Still on A4, coming from SE, between the airport and Vienna:









Leaving A4 (Ostautobahn, Vienna-Hungarian border) at Schwechat interchange:









Accelerating and passing below A4:









The first major road signs, showing principal cities in Austria (Linz and St.Pölten via S1-A21-A1, Eisenstadt via S1-A2-A3, Graz via S1-A2), the country indications for SLO, D and I as well as the next exit (Mannswörth-OMV) and the next one (Schwechat-Ost):









Flexible speed limiting (80??? C'mon...)









Schwechat Süd exit, interesting for plane spotters:









Entering the tunnel below the town of Rannersdorf (1880m long):









Inside the tunnel:









Daylight again:









Once more, the next exit and the one after are indicated:









Shortly before the exit, additional communities served by this exit are shown as well:









Changing lanes is restricted before tunnels:









Pretty strange that nothing tells you that Altmannsdorf is actually Vienna-West and Favoriten is actually Vienna-South. Not good for strangers...









Announcing Vösendorf interchange:









Distances to major (and minor) destinations, however Vienna ("Wien") isn't mentioned with a single word. Who outside Vienna knows where Favoriten or Altmannsdorf are?hno: 









Entering Vösendorf tunnel. 









For A2 towards Vienna/A23 (Südosttangente/Altmannsdf/Favoriten) you have to leave the motorway inside of the tunnel and it's pretty hard to see the signs. The only thing that actually tells you where to go if you need to get into the city center is the white dot on the ground:









The left (!!!) lane takes you to the A2 (Südautobahn, southbound, I/SLO), the two others simply continue as the A21 (Außenringautobahn) which later merges with A1 (Westautobahn) that leaves Vienna in the central West and continues to the German border near Salzburg and on towards Munich:









A view facing North, the A2/Südautobahn that leads towards the A23 and the Wienerberg Towers in the background: 









Please comment!:cheers:


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## ChrisZwolle

Cool, i didn't know this road was finished already.

What are the exact differences between this S1 and an Autobahn?


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## Bahnsteig4

Technically, in this case, there is none. 
A Schnellstraße _can_ be built like an Autobahn but it doesn't have to. If it is, 130km/h apply, like on Autobahnen. Autobahnen, however don'talways automatically allow 130, especially not in or near cities. So, even though the S1 complies with all Austrian "Autobahn" standards, you've got a limit of 100km/h or even less.

A Schnellstraße can look like this:
S6:









S33:









like this:









or even like this:









So, shortly... there is no real rule.


PS:
I've found a good map of Vienna's motorways:


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## ChrisZwolle

Why didn't they gave the S1 an Autobahn number? Different types of roads which are the same just confuse people. And it's not like there is a shortage on A-numbers in Austria


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## x-type

great photos! i've been onterested how S1 looks like! Wien really needs ring around city!!


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## Verso

Modern expressway, with all the electronic portals. I'm surprised at how many concrete expressways/motorways there are in Austria. And I had no idea the interchange with the A2 was in tunnel, that always looked cool to me. And Vienna's skyline looks impressive from it! I wonder what the AADT is, it's quite a relief from going via A23.

Btw, that's an impressive future motorway/expressway network for Vienna! And could you tell me which expressway is depicted on the pic with a speed limit of 130 km/h? I always thought the max. on expressways was 100 km/h!


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## Billpa

Looks great! Nice ride.
Just one question- do you think perhaps they don't sign Wien because it's meant to go around the city and it's assumed the driver isn't trying to get into Wien but to the suburbs around it?
Just a thought.


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## Verso

^ My thought as well; no one would go to (the center of) Vienna via S1, if (s)he's coming from the A4 (airport/Budapest/Bratislava), so I don't think there's a need for writing it anyway.


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## Bahnsteig4

^^Both of you are probably correct. It just see it from another perspective as I am living far out in the west, so for me, the S1 actually is the motorway of choice towards A4. 

@Verso:
The 130km/h limit is on S33 that was upgraded to A-standard only recently. From what I can see, it's close to the town of Krems.
As I said, you can't compare each Schnellstraße to all others.


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## Verso

davidkunz/VIE said:


> ^^Both of you are probably correct. It just see it from another perspective as I am living far out in the west, so for me, the S1 actually is the motorway of choice towards A4.


Ok, now I remembered that you'd said you'd missed signs for Wien-West and Wien-Süd; actually I agree with you on that.



davidkunz/VIE said:


> The 130km/h limit is on S33 that was upgraded to A-standard only recently. From what I can see, it's close to the town of Krems.
> As I said, you can't compare each Schnellstraße to all others.


But did it stay *S*33 (Schnellstraße, so "only" its profile became Autobahn-like, or it's now also officially an Autobahn)?


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## radi6404

Verso said:


> Modern expressway, with all the electronic portals. I'm surprised at how many concrete expressways/motorways there are in Austria. And I had no idea the interchange with the A2 was in tunnel, that always looked cool to me. And Vienna's skyline looks impressive from it! I wonder what the AADT is, it's quite a relief from going via A23.
> 
> Btw, that's an impressive future motorway/expressway network for Vienna! And could you tell me which expressway is depicted on the pic with a speed limit of 130 km/h? I always thought the max. on expressways was 100 km/h!


I really get annoyed when driving on austrian motorways with the american concrete crashbarriers, they would look so much better without concrete.


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## Blijdorp

Looks good. I know the 80km/ph limit sucks we got that to.


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## ChrisZwolle

radi6404 said:


> I really get annoyed when driving on austrian motorways with the american concrete crashbarriers, they would look so much better without concrete.


:ancient: we know..


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## Bahnsteig4

> But did it stay S33?


It did.


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## radi6404

I like the asphalted sections of austria motorways, look way better and also feel better than the concrete sections.


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## Bahnsteig4

A trip through Vienna on city motorways.










Beginning on Altmannsdorfer Ast, a branch of A23 - Südosttangente in the southwest of Vienna: (the red appendix on the map)

Before entering A23 from an ordinary street:









Altmannsdorfer Ast (motorway) to the right, Altmannsdorfer Straße, an urban arterial road to the left, continuing south:









Passing under Altmannsdorfer Str.:









Passing below the U6 metro tracks:









Inzersdorf interchange:
A2 - Südautobahn to the left, A23 to the right:


















Onto the main part of A23:









A23 is infamous for its traffic jams, especially at rush hour:









The so-called Hansson-Kurve, named after the commieblock of the same name:









Favoriten exit:









Laaerbergtunnel, passing below a giant roundabout, know as "Verteilerkreis":









That's what it looks like up there, btw:


















Slowly approaching another (artificial) tunnel:



























Landstraße interchange:


















Prater interchange (A23/A4)









Crossing the green area of the Prater:









Crossing the Danube:









Leaving A23 at Kaisermühlen interchange for A22 (Donauuferautobahn = Danube bank motorway) that follows the Danube: 



























Kaisermühlen tunnel, passing below the high-rise cluster "Donaucity":


















Donauturm:









All these exits lead to Danube bridges:


















The end of lanterns marks the city limits:









Leaving Vienna, entering Lower Austria. Distance signs shows the following towns and cities:
Praha 280km
St.Pölten 75km
Krems 63km
Hollabrunn 41km
Stockerau 16km
Korneuburg-Ost 5km









Three lanes continue outside the city as well:










A return trip will follow next week together with a report on A2 (Vienna - Italy)!


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## radi6404

I like that in austria there are so many signs and stuff on their motorways, they have really much stuff on them.


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## ChrisZwolle

Too much.

Look at this sign. You can never read all this unless you are in a traffic jam.


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## x-type

really weird, but i allways liked slowly driving (you cannot drive fast there!) at Wien's city motorways! those crowds never make me nervous


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## wyqtor

Chris1491 said:


> Too much.
> 
> Look at this sign. You can never read all this unless you are in a traffic jam.


It would be somewhat better if they used the rule that motorway exits should be signed in white (or some other) color, while the rest blue. I would find it a bit easier to read. That's why I like signage in Switzerland, ex-Yugoslav countries and France: you can distinguish between destinations easily and automatically know if the next thing coming is an interchange between 2 motorways or a standard exit.


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## x-type

^^yeah, but in Austria you have this italic font for city exits. that should be enough (although it is not visible as different colour)


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## Jeroen669

Italics are making it just worse visible, especially with such a load of destinations. The signage is just way too small for such a huge amount of lanes and destinations. That results in small fonts, small symbols, destinations next to eachother (like here) etc. You can't take all that information at once, even not with only 80km/h.


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## wyqtor

Welcome to the land of yodels, beautiful mountains, cows and marmots: Tyrol! One the most civilized, clean and nice regions in Central Europe - and the world for that matter I guess!

A12 - Section Kufstein - Innsbruck:

I don't know exactly if the first pics are taken in Germany or Austria:









Castles everywhere around here:






















































Another castle:









Some repairs here on the opposite carriageway. Notice how one lane of incoming traffic is diverted to our carriageway, so that the road is still 2x2:


















Stupid concrete barriers... Austria has such a lovely scenery but you don't get to see much of it on the Autobahn hno: :









Approaching the really big mountains:









The Karwendel mountains in all their splendour, and exit Wattens. Unfortunately we didn't stop to visit the Swarovski crystal museum, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wattens:


















Approaching Innsbruck:









Tunnel near Innsbruck:









Hope you enjoyed, there's more on the way!


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## ChrisZwolle

Stunning scenery but awful signs.


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## Jeroen669

wygtor said:


> Stupid concrete barriers... Austria has such a lovely scenery but you don't get to see much of it on the Autobahn


It's a pity to say, but I think it is for your own safety; people would get distracted too much.


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## wyqtor

Jeroen669 said:


> It's a pity to say, but I think it is for your own safety; people would get distracted too much.


Yes, I know that; but when you're not driving and taking pictures instead, they are really annoying . It would be nice if they installed transparent barriers of sorts, but then the price would probably go way up. And, as you said, drivers would get more distracted.

Even with barriers, I wouldn't want to drive there, because I would probably crash in no time!


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## Jeroen669

wygtor said:


> It would be nice if they installed transparent barriers of sorts


Then they would become quite useless, don't you think? 



wygtor said:


> Even with barriers, I wouldn't want to drive there, because I would probably crash in no time!


Why?


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## wyqtor

Jeroen669 said:


> Why?


Because I just LOVE mountains  !


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## Verso

We're getting a nice sorted collection of Austrian motorways, great work all of you!


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## radi6404

wyqtor said:


> Yes, I know that; but when you're not driving and taking pictures instead, they are really annoying . It would be nice if they installed transparent barriers of sorts, but then the price would probably go way up. And, as you said, drivers would get more distracted.
> 
> Even with barriers, I wouldn't want to drive there, because I would probably crash in no time!


Yes yes, why don´t you consider visiting the Rila mountain man, it´s quite close for you and has on the right places more impressive peaks than these pics of the alps show. But anyway, yes, the austrian alpine Autobahns are awesome, I love mountains also and enjoy it really much to travel and watch out of the window.


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## Bahnsteig4

> It's a pity to say, but I think it is for your own safety; people would get distracted too much.


In fact, the opposite is the case: The less your view changes, the more easily you fall asleep, lose concentration, etc.
It's noise barriers, not view barriers. Interestingly, even fields and rivers are protected from noise. There must be some kind of Mafia that's building all this crap. Famous Austrian architects have started petitions against them and called "an attack on tourism in Austria", claiming that by obstructing the view, foreigners might not be attracted by the countryside as much as they used to, especially in flat areas, where there are no mountains to stick out.


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## Verso

Indeed, a boring motorway is a bigger threat to safety than an exciting one.


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## Wallaroo

Whats the with of a Austrian autobahn lane 3,5 m, or 3,75 m like in Germany?


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## Bahnsteig4

It's not as smooth as Struma, and we know that Austrian motorways are generally of lower quality (), but I present to you the 

*S31 (Burgenlandschnellstraße)*

Length: 46 km (66 planned)
Province: Burgenland

that links Eisenstadt in the north, the capital of Burgenland, Austria's easternmost and most exotic province and the town of Oberpullendorf in the south.
The northern part is a devided 2/2 section, while there is no lane divider (or whatever word the English language requires ) south of Mattersburg.










This is a trip from Eisenstadt interchange (A3/S31, if you come from Vienna) and Oberpullendorf. N-S









Leaving A3:










Eisenstadt is just a couple of mins to the north, we head south/left:









Something for Verso, Slovenian military in AT:









Pretty neat stretch:









Announcing Mattersburg interchange (S31/S4, back to A2/Wr.Neustadt)









Mattersburg interchange:









End of "Vollausbau", no divider from now on:









Still a good road:









Lovely landscape, very close to Hungary:


















Smooth and convenient:



























Nearing Oberpullendorf:









The rather complicated interchange at the southern end of S31:









An ordinary two-lane road takes you to a roundabout, the official end of S31:


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## radi6404

The motorway parts of it let me speechless, they also look fucking awesome


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## Verso

Some professional photos you made here. 

Are Austrian blue signs now lighter than before? Light blue on signs looks way better to me than dark blue; somehow cleaner. But why on earth would you go in direction Mattersburg (south) for Győr?

And thanks also for some nice forest pictures. 



davidkunz/VIE said:


> Something for Verso, Slovenian military in AT:


Ohh :devil:


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## x-type

Verso said:


> But why on earth would you go in direction Mattersburg (south) for Győr?


khm, only via Deutschkreuz. although i donßt see the reason why not to go via Klingenbach or even via Eisenstadt and Nickelsdorf


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## Verso

^ Nickelsdorf, definitely.


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## mojaBL

can someone tell me what those U signs stands for?
and once more if i got clear, there are no difference between S and A roads in Austria? and if not, where is that differnece, which routes?


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## Bahnsteig4

A roads (Autobahnen) _have_ to have at least 2+2 lanes and a barrier between them, S roads (Schnellstraßen) _can_ have 2+2+barrier, but they don't have to. As you can see with S31, it looks partly like an Autobahn, and thus has a limit of 130 kph, while the southern part does not and has a limit of only 100 kph.
But, in general, the difference are hard to explain and hard to understand, for me as well.


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## x-type

mojaBL said:


> can someone tell me what those U signs stands for?


which U signs? quote the photo, we don't know what do you think


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## mojaBL

the yellow one on exits. http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/7962/13gq9.jpg
and do u know how much is these 2x2+barrier and how much without it?


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## Bahnsteig4

^^ I'll check that.

BTW:
A2/Südautobahn will follow next week.


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## x-type

davidkunz/VIE said:


> BTW:
> A2/Südautobahn will follow next week.


i hope Graz - Arnoldstein (Graz - Wien is quite boring  )


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## ChrisZwolle

mojaBL said:


> the yellow one on exits. http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/7962/13gq9.jpg


Maybe it's a similar system like the Germans use. A permanent signed detourroute you can take in case of incidents and traffic jams.


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## Verso

^ Probably; after all, "U" could stand for Umleitung = detour.


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## snupix

U is most probably Umleitung, like in Germany.


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## Bahnsteig4

A2 will be Vienna-Arnoldstein. All of it.

What is it that you don't like about VIE-GRZ? It's a lovely motorway.
.


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## x-type

davidkunz/VIE said:


> What is it that you don't like about VIE-GRZ? It's a lovely motorway.
> .


it's a kinda boring. i like motorways with a lot of objects, and here we have a short tunnel and few viaducts which, actually, are really large. and 4x4 part Wien - Wr. Neustadt is interesting too. i prefer A9


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## Bahnsteig4

You'll see how nice/exciting it is when I post it.


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## x-type

i know, i travel there app. twice a year 
k'mon, why are you so hurt because i said that? it's not bad at all, but generally - it's the most boring austrian motorway. each country must have one which has that unpleasant title!


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ We have 95% boring motorways


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## x-type

98


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## Verso

A motorway can be much more boring than the A2 Vienna - Graz. It's just fine.


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## Verso

I like traffic jams in the middle of nowhere.


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## Bahnsteig4

> i think it because when i first traveled to Austria, i've been expecting thousands of tunnels and viaducts and alpine surrounding, and it was missing at my trip to Wien


If it's mountains, tunnels and viaducts you want, you should rather go via SI, Trieste, Brenner, A12-Germany-A1. The east of Austria is nice and cosy, but not (that) spectacular.

btw, I'm really looking forward to my A2 trip on Mon. Both because of the road and the destination: Venice! For the 13th time! Love it! You can expect a trip report in the CS&SL section, of course.


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## Verso

^ Will you please also take pictures of Italian motorways?  And if you'll by any chance drive all the way to Venice (not parking in Mestre and taking boat), please take photos of the **** (Straßendamm ) to Venice.


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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, detailed picture threads about Italian Autostrades are rare. Italian pics will be really appreciated!


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## Bahnsteig4

> Will you please also take pictures of Italian motorways? And if you'll by any chance drive all the way to Venice (not parking in Mestre and taking boat), please take photos of the **** (Straßendamm ) to Venice.


I know what a **** is...  C'mon...
I'll try my best.


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## x-type

oh yes, please, take photos from italian A23!!! and austrian A2 west from Graz is rare


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## Verso

^ Yeah, I miss photos of A2 west of Graz, haven't even driven there yet. 



Chriszwolle said:


> Yeah, detailed picture threads about Italian Autostrades are rare. Italian pics will be really appreciated!


What do you give me to picture Trieste bypass?


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## Bahnsteig4

delete


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## Bahnsteig4

As promised:

*A2 - Südautobahn*
(Vienna-Thörl-Maglern/Italian border)
Length: 377,3 km (longest motorway in AT)
Provinces: Vienna, Lower Austria, Burgenland, Styria, Carinthia










Entering A2 from Triester Straße in Vienna:









Just a few hundred m south of the northern end of A2:
Vösendorf interchange (S1 - Außenringschnellstraße/A21 - Außenringautobahn)









A little later, already outside of Vienna, the next interchange follows, in this case in Guntramsdorf (A3 - Süd-Ost-Autobahn)









Cruising through Lower Austria near Wr.Neustadt, approaching the hills and mountains:









Bruck a.d. Mur interchange (S6 - Semmering-Schnellstraße)









The so called Wechselgebiet, the hilly area between Lower Austria, Styria and Burgenland:




































Three lanes as we get closer to Graz:









Exit Graz-Ost (city center):









Graz-West interchange (A9 - Pyhrnautobahn)









Now Klagenfurt is the main destination:


















Herzogbergtunnel (2093m), one of many tunnels along this section between Styria and Carinthia, aka "Packabschnitt":









These crash barriers are so totally not shiny, even though the construction ended only in June:









Kalcherkogeltunnel (I think) (1993m):


















Weather in Carinthia couldn't compare to Styrian weather... (I never really liked Carinthia, anyway )









Only very few construction sites along A2 today:









A REALLY wide truck:









Klagenfurther Nordumfahrung (bypass), opened in the nineties, making it the youngest part of A2 features a lot of tunnels:



























West of Klagenfurt, the motorway follows the Wörthersee:









Making use of the rest area, one of the finest in Austria IMO:


















The view from the parking lot:









On the road again. The Karawanken mountains to the left mark the border to Slovenia:









Villach interchange (A10 - Tauernautobahn, A11 - Karawankenautobahn):


















The Dobratsch (you notice how big Slavic influence in Carinthia is. Dobratsch=Dobrač. Jörg, see that?), one of the most striking geographic points of interests along A2:









Arnoldstein, the last exit in Austria:









Already blinded by the Italian sun, only a hundred meters to go:









Benvenuti in Italia:


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## ChrisZwolle

Very nice stuff 

I think the designations "Italien" "Slowenien" etc are a bit outdated, the time of the iron curtain and extensive border checks are (almost) over, time to sign some real destinations! (Ljubljana and Údine/Venezia/Trieste). 

However, i'm still not too keen on the signage. Too many different fonts and sizes. However, it's still much better then the Italian signage.


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## mojaBL

great report! do u like more Austrian or italian motorways?


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## x-type

khm, i admit, A2 can be nice even at W-G section, especially when we have such a great reporter!! well done!!

btw, do you have some pics from italian side?


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## Bahnsteig4

Thanks all!

^^ I will post some Italian A23 pictures later.


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## snupix

Very nice pictures of a great section!


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## Verso

Super gut!! :banana: The Wien - Graz section is in no way boring, especially not in autumn/fall. :cheers: And thanks also for the section west of Graz, I know it's full of tunnels. I really appreciate your making of a big motorway picture of Austria!  (anyone understood this sentence? ) IIRC, the Klagenfurt bypass was concrete when it opened (I haven't driven there since), but it's obviously asphalt now. Btw, where's Jörg's Laibach?


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## x-type

Verso said:


> Btw, where's Jörg's Laibach?


well, he's been climbing on a crane and replacing Ljubljana with Slowenien, nicht? there was no Laibach


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## Verso

^ He threw out Udine too. Supposedly it didn't sound German enough.


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## Bahnsteig4

Perhaps "Udin" or even better "Odin" would be more of his taste?


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## Verso

^ In Friulian?


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## wyqtor

davidkunz/VIE said:


> Perhaps "Udin" or even better "Odin" would be more of his taste?


I guess so ... Vikings in Italy :rofl: !!! *Val Halla* also sounds suspiciously Italian to me! :lol:

Yeah, Udin is in Friulian... which is also a Romance language, so I guess Odin might indeed be a better alternative for Mr. Haider.


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## Verso

Qwert said:


> Why are you laughing? "Fúkal" means "it had blown," in infinitive "fúkať." If you don't like that word you can use also synonyms like "vial" or a bit expressive, what IMO fits in this case, "dul."


It means "to ****" in some other Slavic languages. :lol:


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## radi6404

keber said:


> And why do you mean that? How do you know, that this new motorway (*which has, frankly said, much superior road quality compared to Struma*) bumpy, if you even didn't see one single picture of finished surface?


Yes, man, you know it best.


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## keber

Seeing all the pictures up to now, Struma is worse than this A6.:yes:


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## Verso

Let's leave radi in his fairy tale; I remember how modern I felt my country was becoming after it finally started to get a decent motorway network in the previous decade (we got our first motorway in 1972, btw). I can't tell you how backwards it felt without a single kilometer of motorway from Ljubljana in direction Maribor only 6 years ago. :lol: But now, the whole distance is covered by motorway, and I have motorway anywhere I go (especially being from Ljubljana), so driving on motorway has become nothing special. :cheers:


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## radi6404

keber said:


> Seeing all the pictures up to now, Struma is worse than this A6.:yes:


Keber why did you hijack the ausrian thread with Struma motorway? I can accept you don´t find it the best motorway but you simply can´t say it´s a bad motorway.


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## keber

Actually, could you explain, how you think, that new A6 iz bumpy, if you didn't see one picture of it, yet drove over it.


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## Energy2003

did A12 tyrol "inntalautobahn" yesterday ... will get the photos in 2 days (made by nokia 2 mp) ... hope it´s ok enough to post 

drove till Linz ....


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## ChrisZwolle

Hmmm i have bad experiences making roadpics during this time of the year. They all get blurred, because of the lack of light.


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## Energy2003

Chriszwolle said:


> Hmmm i have bad experiences making roadpics during this time of the year. They all get blurred, because of the lack of light.


the season shouldn´t be the problem at the moment. 
the weather was bad at all. 
the problem is that nokia has bad cams (no autofocus)

but we´ll see ... i´ll tried to give my best


----------



## bgplayer19

Chriszwolle said:


> I've been to Austria 2 times, both in Tirol, but i don't like the Autobahn signage. The Germans and Swiss did better work there on the signage.


talking of signage you should come in Bulgaria and see what signage is!There are only three types of signs!No electrical!


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## ChrisZwolle

Signs powered by electricity are so 1970's. Nowadays, there is a much better alternative; retroreflective ones, especially diamond grade signs. You don't have the costs of maintenance, power, and it saves you a lot of inconvenience when they are broken.


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## mojaBL

Chriszwolle said:


> Signs powered by electricity are so 1970's. Nowadays, there is a much better alternative; retroreflective ones, especially diamond grade signs. You don't have the costs of maintenance, power, and it saves you a lot of inconvenience when they are broken.


can u show us a picture?


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## Jeroen669

picture

Left sign is Diamond Grade.


----------



## mojaBL

i think he thought 









these are multi functional showing all sort of informations.


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## ChrisZwolle

Those are VMS signs. (Variable Message Signs). I thought he meant signs which are lit from the inside. You see those a lot in Belgium, but hell they are 20 years behind the rest of Europe :lol:

(just kidding, no offense to my Belgium neighbors!)


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## Bahnsteig4

A trip from Vienna to Bratislava on A4 and A6:

Turning onto A4 from S1:









A4:









Passing the airport:













































Approaching Bruckneudorf interchange (A4 Ostautobahn/A6 Südostautobahn)




































A6, finally a new motorway in Austria:













































The old Bundesstraße to the right:









Kittsee, the last exit in AT:


















Viva Schengen!













































Welcome to Bratislava, only 35 minutes after leaving Vienna!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

So cool, now you can do shopping in Bratislava (or Wien) 









4 capitals on one overhead, how often does that happen! :cheers:


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## x-type

great photos!! few things remind me on italian motorways - those SOS lay-by (beside existing SOS lane), fog markers and exit lane at second slovakian photo (not counting border crossing) - it has typical italian shape


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## Qwert

Thank you davidkunz/VIE, nice photos. I wonder what is this structure supposed to be? I guess it has something with close airport, but I don't know exactly what.












Chriszwolle said:


> So cool, now you can do shopping in Bratislava (or Wien)


Clothes and electronics are cheaper in Vienna, other stuff ussually in Bratislava, enjoy!:cheers::lol:


----------



## Mateusz

I think, this A6 motorway is close to standard of polish expressways, but still very good road, and neeew


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## x-type

i don't know why it runs through Linz, why didn't they make real bypass for transit


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## Mateusz

I think this motorway was constructed long time age and fashion in building was a bit different


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## Bahnsteig4

^^ Exactly.

However, the A26 Linzer Autobahn will offer some sort of relief for the urban roads in Linz and the A7 when its first section opens in 2014.










Bigger picture:
http://www.asfinag.at/index.php?module=Pagesetter&type=file&func=get&tid=287&fid=ddownload1&pid=32


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## ChrisZwolle

> The population of the city proper is 189,343 (2007), and 271,000 in the agglomeration.


Larger than i thought, one main road is not very good in distributing traffic there then.


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## Mateusz

So A26 will be Motorway Bypass of Linz


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## Bahnsteig4

More or less. IMO it starts to close to the city. You can't directly connect to A1, you have to use A7 nonetheless...


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## Bahnsteig4

A crappy "visualization" of the new Danube crossing, Linz' fourth Danube bridge.









The red parts are tunnels:









North is to the right:
Note that all the red parts are underground! Will be pretty interesting I guess:


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## Bahnsteig4

This is what will be built:









And this is what would make sense IMO...









Perhaps I'd even add a western branch between N Linz and A1...?


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## SmarterChild

^ U sure thats a bypass? looks more like a city motorway. Perhaps the beginning of a ring moway? lol

Anyways, what are the lenght of Autobahn and Autostrassen being built in Austria currently and how much was opened 2007?


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## x-type

frankly, i don't like too much A26 route because it will be also partially city motorway and city will eat it in few years. imo the bypass should be done somewhere between Asten and Galneukirchen (as east option), or from knotwn Traun to to Linz nord (as western option, David also made this one as his option). but i prefer much more this eastern option


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## Bahnsteig4

^^ As I said, it doesn't make much sense.

(Don't be confused by my new username, it's still me, as you can tell by my avatar...)


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## ChrisZwolle

Bahnsteig4? I'd liked the other one better


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## Bahnsteig4

> Anyways, what are the lenght of Autobahn and Autostrassen being built in Austria currently and how much was opened 2007?


OK, I'll just compile a list of all A and S numbered motorways in AT, be they finished, u/c, planned or proposed and later make a conclusion.
However, the only motorway section that was opened in AT last year was A6 (22km). Only A5 (58km) and the S1 extension (23,5km) are u/c as we speak.

*A1 Westautobahn (E55/E60)*









Length: 292km
Vienna-St.Pölten-Linz-Salzburg-German A8
Provinces: Vienna, Lower Austria, Upper Austria, Salzburg

built: 1940s-1970s
Status: *finished*


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## Bahnsteig4

*A2 - Südautobahn (E59/E66)*









Length: 378km
Vienna-Wiener Neustadt-Wechsel-Graz-Packsattel-Klagenfurt-Villach-Italian A23
Provinces: Vienna, Lower Austria, Styria, Burgenland, Carinthia

built: 1959-1999
Status: *finished*


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## Bahnsteig4

*A3 - Südostautobahn (E59)*








red:finished
bluelanned


Length: 38km
Guntramsdorf interchange/A2-Ebreichsdorf-Pottendorf-Eisenstadt interchange/S31
Provinces: Lower Austria, Burgenland

built: ?-?
Status: *finished*


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## Bahnsteig4

I like this one:

White and black: in use
Red: planned or u/c:










At the moment, we have 1,696 km of motorways (Autobahnen - A) and 428 km of Schnellstraßen, out of which 260 km are up to Autobahn-standard.

92 km of A and 296 km of S are either planned or u/c by January 2008.


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## LtBk

Will there be connection between the A10 and A12 Autobahn or the mountainous 
terrain makes it impossible to build?


----------



## RawLee

LtBk said:


> Will there be connection between the A10 and A12 Autobahn or the mountainous
> terrain makes it impossible to build?


I suspect because of Schengen,there is no need for that...there is a connection through Germany I suppose.


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## Bahnsteig4

^^ You're both right.

Austria's highest mountains can be found in this area, the Hohe Tauern. Big parts of the area are protected and some areas are a National Park. It'd be hard to build anything at all there, let alone a motorway. Also, traffic volume doesn't justify wider roads. The B-street network does its job quite well.


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## Bahnsteig4

*A4 Ostautobahn E60*










Length: 66km
Vienna-Schwechat-VIE airport-Bruck/Leitha-Neusiedl-Nickelsdorf-Hungarian M1
Provinces: Vienna, Lower Austria, Burgenland

built: ?
Status: *finished*


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## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> Lately Chris has been laughing much more than usually, what's the deal with that?


It's just so funny here :lol: 



PLH said:


> ^^ Maybe this?


Nope, i do not smoke, even never had one cancer stick


----------



## Verso

The most diplomatic answer possible. :lol:


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## Energy2003

so, did a nice picture. where you can see where the 2nd Tunnel will be connected to the highway (A14 - Bregenz - Pfändertunnel)


----------



## Tauernautobahn

*Second tube of "Katschbergtunnel"*

On April 4th the second tube of Katschbergtunnel (length ~5400 m) on the A10 "Tauern"-motorway will be opened.
Unfortunately it will last until 2009 until traffic goes through both tubes because the old one has to be reconstructed.

Here are some pictures of the new tube (source:http://www.salzburg.com/sn/nwas/PictureGallery_scom3/PHP-Files/Gallery.php?PicNr=0&ref=vrui~lfsw$7e30ipo-8w9f9)

































When the works are finished in the end of 2009 there is only one single-tube-tunnel left, 6400m long "Tauerntunnel" of which the second tube should be finished in 2010 and the reconstruction of its second tube in 2011, so in that year the whole A10 should be s2x2s :banana:


----------



## x-type

has the works at Tauerntunnel allready started? and will Bosruck and Gleinalm also get second tubes?


----------



## Tauernautobahn

Yes, the construction of the secont Tauerntunnel-tube started in 2006, it lasts so long because of the different geology there.

The second tube of Bosrucktunnel is planned to be opened in 2014 but they're only building it because they have problems with water in the old tube AFAIK
For the Gleinalmtunnel there is nothing planned yet AFAIK but that's not a big Problem because there is not much traffic and when S35 expressway (with almost-motorway-characteristics) is opened in 2010 and even now you can bypass it, the detour is only ~20 kms longer and you're nearly as fast as via Gleinalm AND you save €7,50 tolls.
The really bad thing about the A9 in Austria is that the second tubes of the tunnels near Klaus are planned to be in operation in 2019 :nuts:hno::bash:


----------



## x-type

Tauernautobahn said:


> The really bad thing about the A9 in Austria is that the second tubes of the tunnels near Klaus are planned to be in operation in 2019 :nuts:hno::bash:


uf, really?! i thought it was allready under construction.


----------



## Tauernautobahn

They once promised to begin the construction when the firs carriageway was ready but then they found out that they don't have the money...


----------



## PLH

What is this viaduct over the highway? Is it a kind of runway's emergency extention? Or what?
From the ground it makes a breathtaking impresion as being around 20 m high

It is located on A4 higway by Schwechat Airport:


----------



## x-type

you allready have pics of that covered pass from motorway at this thread. it is there only in case of plane mistake during the landing or taking off so plane don't finnish on the motorway because it's landing zone. check out the page 12 of this thread


----------



## PLH

^^ Thanks very much. I wonder if it have been 'in use' in the past Probably no...


----------



## radi6404

Tauernautobahn said:


> On April 4th the second tube of Katschbergtunnel (length ~5400 m) on the A10 "Tauern"-motorway will be opened.
> Unfortunately it will last until 2009 until traffic goes through both tubes because the old one has to be reconstructed.
> 
> When the works are finished in the end of 2009 there is only one single-tube-tunnel left, 6400m long "Tauerntunnel" of which the second tube should be finished in 2010 and the reconstruction of its second tube in 2011, so in that year the whole A10 should be s2x2s :banana:


You forgot to mention the karavenkentunnel, because it has also only one tube and if another tube wil be build is dubious.


----------



## x-type

radi6404 said:


> You forgot to mention the karavenkentunnel, because it has also only one tube and if another tube wil be build is dubious.


Karawankentunnel is not at Tauernautobahn (A10), it is on A11


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## Tauernautobahn

radi6404 said:


> (....)and if another tube wil be build is dubious.


Unfortunately you're right. And the last thing I've heard is that they'll only build a safety-tunnel instead of a second tube and that until 2019 hno:

On the other hand the Karawankentunnel/Predor Karavanke is not so important because traffic jams there are not very often and if there are it's mostly because of the toll station.


----------



## keber

No, jams were mostly because of former border crossing. There were no jams in this year yet (border crossing doesn't exist anymore, but toll station does).

There was only 17% increase in traffic from 2001-2006, figure from 2006 shows traffic quantity only 6300 AADT. By that growth traffic would reach between 9.000 and 10.000 AADT by year 2019. Pretty low number. It is quite interesting, that more traffic goes off the motorway at last exit than it continues towards Austria.

On the other hand, Šentilj/Spielfeld border crossing experiences almost 22% traffic growth between 2001-2006 and could reach about 18.000 AADT in 2019. It is also a cheaper way to travel between Germany and Croatia in terms of tolls. 

I think, that München-Ljubljana-Zagreb transit route looses leading transit importance, so tunnel Karavanke could really see only service tube.


----------



## radi6404

keber said:


> No, jams were mostly because of former border crossing. There were no jams in this year yet (border crossing doesn't exist anymore, but toll station does).
> 
> There was only 17% increase in traffic from 2001-2006, figure from 2006 shows traffic quantity only 6300 AADT. By that growth traffic would reach between 9.000 and 10.000 AADT by year 2019. Pretty low number. It is quite interesting, that more traffic goes off the motorway at last exit than it continues towards Austria.
> 
> On the other hand, Šentilj/Spielfeld border crossing experiences almost 22% traffic growth between 2001-2006 and could reach about 18.000 AADT in 2019. It is also a cheaper way to travel between Germany and Croatia in terms of tolls.
> 
> *I think, that München-Ljubljana-Zagreb transit route looses leading transit importance[/ib], so tunnel Karavanke could really see only service tube.*


*

And that´s really strange, where does the traffic to the east go, it used to be the main transport route to the east. But many people might also be affraid of travelling through Serbia know since all countries accepted the independence of Kosovo, some Bulgairans for example are affraid of travelling through Serbia.*


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## ChrisZwolle

keber said:


> No, jams were mostly because of former border crossing. There were no jams in this year yet (border crossing doesn't exist anymore, but toll station does).


Even not in the summer months? The Karawankentunnel is the main throughfare for holiday-goers from western Europe to Istria, the main tourist destination on the Balkans. The Austrian A10 from Salzburg to Villach has huge traffic jams at the tunnels during the summer months.


----------



## keber

Do you know the meaning of "this year" phrase? :lol:

@radi:
>>> And that´s really strange, where does the traffic to the east go, it used to be the main transport route to the east.

Go in the middle of the day and count vehicles through Karav(w)anke. Pretty empty even for a national road. In summer many go through tunnel, but a lot of traffic diverges towards Italy. Queues were mostly induced because of border crossing. This Easter, for example, there were no considerable queues, in contrary to last Easter. At AT-SLO border, of course.


----------



## Bahnsteig4

Massive pile-up with up to 100 vehicles involved today in dense fog on A1:

(Link in German)
http://orf.at/080325-23278/index.html



















The accident happened between Seewalchen and St.Georgen in Upper Austria. Many injured, none killed.


----------



## Verso

^^ 1 killed actually. Really bad weather in Europe last few days.



radi6404 said:


> And that´s really strange, where does the traffic to the east go, it used to be the main transport route to the east.


What's more strange is people going from Salzburg to Zagreb over Graz/Maribor instead of Villach/Ljubljana.


----------



## x-type

yes, from personal experience (i work in transport company) people in last few years much more prefer to travel via Pyhrnautobahn rather then Tauernautobahn. 10-15 years ago was opposite situation


----------



## Verso

Why's that?


----------



## Bahnsteig4

It's really kinda strange, as the Slovenian part (MBX-ZAG) can be a pain in the ass.


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> Why's that?


well, while traveling from Croatia to Germany, Pyhrnautobahn is the shortest route. and A3 in Germany is one of the most important motorways, so the point is as soon as possible get onto it. if you are not going to München, then it is better to avoid A99 (München bypass) because of possible jams, and the result is again - Pyhrnautobahn. so, Tauernautobahn is popular only while traveling to München or west Bayern. to get to Salzburg many people also use A9 to Liezen and then 145 to Salzburg. in that way you avoid one austrian toll, and in Slovenia you have just symbolic toll (but in Croatia it is little higher). personaly, i wouldn't do it frequently and i think that Tauern is the best way to reach Salzburg.
also, when A9 was finnished (no matter for Klaus section), it became popular.


----------



## keber

And in few years, when Slovenian part will be finished, A9 will certainly be even more popular.


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## Bahnsteig4

^^ That's for sure. But somehow it's obvious why the Slovenians take their time to make access ot Rijeka easier.


----------



## Tauernautobahn

keber said:


> No, jams were mostly because of former border crossing. There were no jams in this year yet (border crossing doesn't exist anymore, but toll station does).


Ok, so I can hope to pass it without jams this year 



keber said:


> There was only 17% increase in traffic from 2001-2006, figure from 2006 shows traffic quantity only 6300 AADT. By that growth traffic would reach between 9.000 and 10.000 AADT by year 2019. Pretty low number. It is quite interesting, that more traffic goes off the motorway at last exit than it continues towards Austria.


You're right but IMO that's also because of the single-tubes of Tauern- and Katschbergtunnel that makes many people avoid the 'typical' Munich-Salzburg-Ljubljana-route and go via the A9.at
I think when the second tubes are opened there will be more traffic again.



keber said:


> On the other hand, Šentilj/Spielfeld border crossing experiences almost 22% traffic growth between 2001-2006 and could reach about 18.000 AADT in 2019. It is also a cheaper way to travel between Germany and Croatia in terms of tolls.


That's right but I don't think that's the main point b/c Karawanken-route is much shorter in many cases.


----------



## Verso

Tauernautobahn said:


> Ok, so I can hope to pass it without jams this year


Do you have relatives in the Balkans, or just going to the seaside? :stickingmynosewhereIshouldn't:<-


----------



## Tauernautobahn

Verso said:


> Do you have relatives in the Balkans, or just going to the seaside? :stickingmynosewhereIshouldn't:<-


Just going to the seaside :cheers2:


----------



## Verso

Ah, ok...


----------



## x-type

Tauernautobahn said:


> You're right but IMO that's also because of the single-tubes of Tauern- and Katschbergtunnel that makes many people avoid the 'typical' Munich-Salzburg-Ljubljana-route and go via the A9.at
> I think wh


but at A9 in the summere there are also jams, especially at Klaus section. i'm not sure for Bosrusk and Gleinalmtunnel, but i guess there could also be jams. but Tauern jams are larger


----------



## H123Laci

Bahnsteig4:

It's nice to see that Austria is building a long needed beltway around Wien.
S1 (between A2 and A4) is a great help for transit traffic.

(BTW: why is it S1, why not A21? Afterall it is the extension of A21...) 

But I think it is too close to the city.

This alignment is perfect for the suburban/agglomeration traffic, but not for the transit traffic.

A 2nd bypass would be better for transit traffic:









What is your opinion?


----------



## H123Laci

> What's more strange is people going from Salzburg to Zagreb over Graz/Maribor instead of Villach/Ljubljana.


Maybe they want to save money...


----------



## H123Laci

Bahnsteig4: 


> Now what's that??? Just a few kms to the south and the following changes have happened:
> St.Pölten has disappeared (WTF?)
> Linz and Vienna have appeared (finally)
> "A1" has disappeared. Now, I realize that both Linz and Vienna can be reached via A1, but does everybody know that? And do foreigners know that they are still on the right street for St.Pölten? (If anyone wants to go there...)


I used to have orientation problems.
But I have bought a PNA.
Since then I have no orientation problem. ;-)


----------



## Verso

H123Laci said:


> Maybe they want to save money...


Probably, the difference isn't so small after all: 12.85 EUR - 34 HRK = 8.17 EUR.


----------



## keber

... it's about 100-140 km distance of gasoline (depends on where you get it and what sort of gas guzzler you have.
x2 means in average 250 km of driven distances on round trip. Not so small after all.


----------



## Verso

^^ I don't know what you mean, but the difference is just (2×) 15 km. Of course there's more motorways by the Villach/Ljubljana route...


----------



## keber

Turn that money difference from tolls to cost of gasoline and then in driven kilometers.


----------



## Verso

^ So you're saying you're also in favor of the Graz/Maribor route?


----------



## keber

It is too far for me. But it is pretty viable option for anyone from/to Zagreb and beyond in southeast direction. Even from München it is only 50 km longer than over A10 and 9 € cheaper (18€ for roundtrip), if you take whole A9. If you take B320 passing Schladming it is only 20 km longer, but I don't know the condition of that B-road (all directions include bypassing Salzburg)

Tunnel tolls on A10 and A11 are pretty expensive and therefore not very attractive on cost side.


----------



## H123Laci

Qwert said:


> Yes, but this motorway would be furhter from the lake and next to railway as H123Laci mentioned.
> 
> If they really don't want to build it next to Neusidlersee they can build something like this. It will help a lot as well, although not as H123Laci's proposal: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...d=103736049826817828962.000449ba4fe28c3da40ad


Sorry, but I think it has no sense.
This is a "neither fish, nor flesh" alignment.

Maybe there is no need for S31 extension, this need can be satisfied by the earlier proposed A21 extension...


----------



## RawLee

Other solution would be to pays the same length this motorway would be in our M8(I mean on the austrian side)...that would have the same results,but the traffic wont even go near Vienna...after our part will be finished...


----------



## Energy2003

Chriszwolle said:


> I guess everbody went skiing?



yes, more than 50% are tourists

also have a look at the ski transport systems on the cars roofs


----------



## Qwert

H123Laci said:


> Sorry, but I think it has no sense.
> This is a "neither fish, nor flesh" alignment.
> 
> Maybe there is no need for S31 extension, this need can be satisfied by the earlier proposed A21 extension...


Yes, it's not ideal, but it's probably the only variant which is possible.hno:


----------



## Morsue

Is there any public discussion today on whether to connect the A10 and A12? I know you can go through Germany and never leave an autobahn, but doesn't the western part of Austria somehow feel cut off from the rest of the country? Or maybe it's just not economically justifiable to build a motorway past Kitzbühel.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't think it's ecologically feasible. The best they can do is build some bypass along some towns, but that's it. Besides that, heading for Wien, the German route is not that much longer.


----------



## Verso

Morsue said:


> Is there any public discussion today on whether to connect the A10 and A12? I know you can go through Germany and never leave an autobahn, but doesn't the western part of Austria somehow feel cut off from the rest of the country? Or maybe it's just not economically justifiable to build a motorway past Kitzbühel.


Come on, we're in united Europe, who cares if you go through Germany. And if you really don't wanna leave Austria, you have roads there.


----------



## wyqtor

Verso said:


> Come on, we're in united Europe, who cares if you go through Germany. And if you really don't wanna leave Austria, you have roads there.


Yeah, I'm all for building motorways in general, but this time flooding those beautiful valleys with trucks just feels wrong. But I do think the Germans should reconstruct their part, it doesn't even have any shoulder for many kms.


----------



## Tauernautobahn

Morsue said:


> Is there any public discussion today on whether to connect the A10 and A12? I know you can go through Germany and never leave an autobahn, but doesn't the western part of Austria somehow feel cut off from the rest of the country? Or maybe it's just not economically justifiable to build a motorway past Kitzbühel.


There was a connection (S11) planned but stopped it in 1983. There are three sections built:

bypass of Bischofshofen with Access to A10
bypass of Lend
bypass of Bruck an der Glocknerstraße.


----------



## Tauernautobahn

Chriszwolle said:


> I don't think it's ecologically feasible. The best they can do is build some bypass along some towns, but that's it. Besides that, heading for Wien, the German route is not that much longer.


The German route is even shorter (at least for most of the people)


----------



## x-type

Tauernautobahn said:


> There was a connection (S11) planned but stopped it in 1983. There are three sections built:
> 
> bypass of Bischofshofen with Access to A10
> bypass of Lend
> bypass of Bruck an der Glocknerstraße.


are those roads called S11, or are they also 311? and do you maybe know about road structures on that planned S11 road, would there be some large tunnels (larger than 5000 m)? i guess it would be neccessary to build one of those under Kitzbühler Alpen


----------



## thun

> The German route is even shorter (at least for most of the people)


And it (still) doesn't cost a cent...:2cents:

Btw. they should introduce tolls for cars going from Kufstein to Salzburg and finance the refurbishment of A 8 with this money...:runaway:


The pictures above show a traffic on the northbound lane, south of Bregenz, right. Fortunately, they started to dig the second hole there, and they finally started a one-day-toll sticker to pass Bregenz. Personally, I still don't would buy it as long as there is the Pfänder tunnel finished and a motorway connection to the Swiss A 13. For now, I'm not willed to buy a sticker only for the 2km of bypassing Bregenz.


----------



## Tauernautobahn

x-type said:


> are those roads called S11, or are they also 311? and do you maybe know about road structures on that planned S11 road, would there be some large tunnels (larger than 5000 m)? i guess it would be neccessary to build one of those under Kitzbühler Alpen


No, they are now called "311" and a part of the bypass is signed with "A10".

I'm sure there was at least one tunnel over 5 kms planned (bypass of Zell am See). They built a similiar tunnel (Schmittentunnel) then for B311 and I it is 5111 m's. There are also many other tunnels planned now on that route but only two-laned ones


----------



## Tauernautobahn

thun said:


> And it (still) doesn't cost a cent...:2cents:
> 
> Btw. they should introduce tolls for cars going from Kufstein to Salzburg and finance the refurbishment of A 8 with this money...:runaway:


I agree.



thun said:


> The pictures above show a traffic on the northbound lane, south of Bregenz, right. Fortunately, they started to dig the second hole there, and they finally started a one-day-toll sticker to pass Bregenz. Personally, I still don't would buy it as long as there is the Pfänder tunnel finished and a motorway connection to the Swiss A 13. For now, I'm not willed to buy a sticker only for the 2km of bypassing Bregenz.


Sorry but I think €2,50 is not that much for a over 7000m tunnel.


----------



## Nexis

Energy2003 said:


> so, friends of Austria, i did do *A14* _@Bregenz _ pics on Saturday afternoon for you:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> should be 9 km traffic jam


I think everybody decided to use the Bathroom or "Starbucks decided to give out free coffee"!?!

Or Chriszwolle tried direct traffic around an accident he saw when this happen


----------



## mojaBL

Starbucks in Bregenz i don´t think so


----------



## Tauernautobahn

mojaBL said:


> Starbucks in Bregenz...


:lol::nuts::scouserd:


----------



## thun

> Sorry but I think €2,50 is not that much for a over 7000m tunnel.


Yeah, sure. But for me personally it doesn't make much sense at all. If you want to go to Zurich immediately after the tunnel you enter Bregenz and have to go St. Margrethen through the villages where there's usually heavy traffic. Therefore, it doesn't save that much time passing only the city of Bregenz. So driving through Bregenz you usually aren't much slower. If you go to the south (Graubünden, Tessin) the sticker makes more sense because you can pass the whole agglomeration at the shore of Lake Constance easily via Dornbirn and you actually save much time.


Btw, there are other routes where such 1-day stickers would make (more) sense: Zirl-Ost - Innsbruck-Süd (from Garmisch to Brenner) or Imst - Landeck (from Fernpass to Reschen; thats also a stretch where I never use the Autobahn) or maybe Kufstein - Zillertal.


----------



## Tauernautobahn

thun said:


> Btw, there are other routes where such 1-day stickers would make (more) sense: Zirl-Ost - Innsbruck-Süd (from Garmisch to Brenner) or Imst - Landeck (from Fernpass to Reschen; thats also a stretch where I never use the Autobahn) or maybe Kufstein - Zillertal.


Damn right you are but this will never happen or if, maybe in some 30 years hno:. 
The ASFINAG was already rebelling against the one in Bregenz.

Also at the A1 around Salzburg it would make sense or better around every bigger town. I know several people living e.g. in Salzburg and they rather go via the city (with many traffic jams) than via the motorway (which would be much faster in most cases) just because it has no sense for them to buy a sticker. Not to mention all the people coming from south-eastern Bavaria for shopping who, if they come from Freilassing have to take a several-km-long detour instead of being on the motorway for ~300 m's (!) from Salzburg-Mitte to Salzburg-Kleßheim :nuts:


----------



## Energy2003

it´s still not for sure that Begenz gets special support by ASFINAG !

Kufstein is the only exit i know with special rights


----------



## Tauernautobahn

Energy2003 said:


> it´s still not for sure that Begenz gets special support by ASFINAG !


According to http://www.asfinag.at/index.php?idtopic=1042
it should definately start in late summer 2008.

Here is a Graphic:











Energy2003 said:


> Kufstein is the only exit i know with special rights


Not any longer, since last year there's no more Vignette-free access to Exit Kufstein-Süd.
They even removed the sign in Germany informing about it.
Since that you need the sticker from the state border to Germany


----------



## Verso

Is this corridor sticker valid only on this motorway? And is it sold everywhere as other stickers?


----------



## Energy2003

cool, but this means surely longer waiting time for ALL ... till they all stickers are bought & contolled  

for you guys ... ein bisschen Kunst ... a bit art


----------



## Timon91

^^You should post this one in the highway photographs thread.


----------



## Tauernautobahn

Verso said:


> Is this corridor sticker valid only on this motorway? And is it sold everywhere as other stickers?


Yes, the corridor sticker is only valid from the border near Hörbranz to Hohenems.

They only sell it at Hörbranz and at the border stations towards Switzerland AFAIK


----------



## thun

So on a weekend with heavy traffic it will not matter if you're jamming through Bregenz or be queuing at the sticker machine at the boarder...


----------



## Energy2003

thun said:


> So on a weekend with heavy traffic it will not matter if you're jamming through Bregenz or be queuing at the sticker machine at the boarder...


i don´t know if they will have machines for this. for a regular vignette you´ve to stop at former boarder D-A in Hörbranz, go out of the car and buy one in the shop.

in early days there where small houses between the lanes. they could have been good used now. but they did it away a lot of years ago.

but there´s enough space in Hörbranz to find a solution


----------



## Tauernautobahn

thun said:


> So on a weekend with heavy traffic it will not matter if you're jamming through Bregenz or be queuing at the sticker machine at the boarder...


If it were as you say then there would have to be queues at every former state border station but I've never heard of it. Maybe they'll also sell them at rest areas close to the border but I don't know exactly


----------



## thun

I've read at our home newspaper that they planned machines to sell. The Korridorvignette is a big thing in it because I'm living at the german side of Vorarlberg (Allgäu). I don't know if they sell it elsewhere but on the German side isn't a rest area between Illertissen or Landsberg and the boarder (which is way more than 60km). If will be sold only there it would be completely insane.

Of course you won't be able to buy the K-Vignette everywhere where the "Pickerl" is sold (which is almost every petrol station in Southern Bavaria).


----------



## Energy2003

thun said:


> I've read at our home newspaper that they planned machines to sell. The Korridorvignette is a big thing in it because I'm living at the german side of Vorarlberg (Allgäu). I don't know if they sell it elsewhere but on the German side isn't a rest area between Illertissen or Landsberg and the boarder (which is way more than 60km). If will be sold only there it would be completely insane.
> 
> Of course you won't be able to buy the K-Vignette everywhere where the "Pickerl" is sold (which is almost every petrol station in Southern Bavaria).



i was at your home today OA - RV 

by passing the former boarder i saw that they´re building something, but if they do what it looks like at the moment, the build it not on the main lanes, it´s on the side lanes on the right which was for trucks before i remember


----------



## thun

^^
Not quite at my home. I have OAL on my plate. 

It surely makes sense to build it on the side, there will still be lots of vehicles with a Vignette, GO Box or without anything passing by.


----------



## Energy2003

thun said:


> ^^
> Not quite at my home. I have OAL on my plate.
> 
> It surely makes sense to build it on the side, there will still be lots of vehicles with a Vignette, GO Box or without anything passing by.



they have to have a good look NOW what they do, cause when they want to build there something in future (gas station, hotel, or what else) like it´s planed since years they shouldn´t waste space now

and building something now and change it in a few years would be shurely wasting money.

but normally things here in Vorarlberg are done in high quality (thinking & building)

btw. KE OAL KF > me too


----------



## thun

^^
Don't worry, we all pay enough so that ASFINAG can afford such things.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Jetzt geht's los:



> Zwischen Lammertal und Tauerntunnel 20 km Stau, Wartezeit bis zu 2 Stunden, gesperrt wegen defektem Lkw im Tauerntunnel, dann wieder Blockabfertigung


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A10 Tauernautobahn. 100% stopped traffic, people walking outside their cars.









EDIT:

It get's worse:



> Zwischen Lammertal und Tauerntunnel 30 km Stau, Wartezeit bis zu 4 Stunden Ausweichen über Tauernschleuse Pöckstein - Malnitz


30km jammed, 4 hours delay.


----------



## ABRob

Chriszwolle said:


> Jetzt geht's los:
> 
> 
> 
> Zwischen Lammertal und Tauerntunnel 20 km Stau, Wartezeit bis zu 2 Stunden, gesperrt wegen defektem Lkw im Tauerntunnel, dann wieder Blockabfertigung
Click to expand...

The 'Blockabfertigung' started at 3 am this morning.


----------



## Verso

Don't you need more than 2 hours for 20 km, and more than 4 hours for 30 km?


----------



## radi6404

The landscape there is just to beautiful.


----------



## Timon91

^^That's why some people go there on holiday, and thus get stuck in traffic 
But yes, you're absolutely right, it's beautiful.


----------



## Energy2003

*one-day-vignette sales stations*

as an insider  i present you the new stations which are not yet in use, behind you can see that they are fully integrated to the highway enter in direction germany. they are between the boarder to swiss and the city centre of town hohenems


----------



## Verso

^^ Now you'll be able to buy it faster. It's for the corridor vignette in Vorarlberg, right?


----------



## Energy2003

not yet, starts on September. after the summer holidays


----------



## keber

Is this one-day vignette a sticker or only some sort of ticket?

Because I wouldn't like to stick something onto my windscreen for 10 minutes driving only.


----------



## Energy2003

it´s a ticket for 24h, you just have to have it with you in your car.

prefered visible behind the window from outside if there´s a control


----------



## Timon91

Idea for Slovenia?


----------



## x-type

Timon Kruijk said:


> Idea for Slovenia?


dream on


----------



## Timon91

Obviously


----------



## Bahnsteig4

If only...


----------



## Energy2003

... all people would be as nice as me ?!


----------



## Verso

Bahnsteig4 said:


> If only...


Nay.


----------



## Energy2003

*exclusive for SSC Members*

_so, whos the chief now :lol:_

*Hörbranz, one day sticker station, coming from Germany*



*including DETAIL view *


----------



## Verso

^^ No change! :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

How much does this corridor vignette costs? It's only a few kilometers, only a few cents would be reasonable.


----------



## Energy2003

2€ per way (so 4€ when you want to go back AFTER 24h)


----------



## Verso

^ One way it's 2 €, both directions it's 4 €.

EDIT: yes.


----------



## x-type

is this available only at Bregenz bypass?


----------



## Energy2003

one station at (D) boarder in Bregenz.

ine at (CH) Boarder in Hohenems 

as seen here:


----------



## x-type

this thing would be perfect for Maribor - Šentilj in Slovenia!


----------



## Rijeka

I agree, but I'm sure the Slovenians don't. Now they can have cheap stickers with the transit paying for them...


----------



## Energy2003

this is part of the highway enter system in my hometown.

maybe you like it 

here you can see the streets and the police/firemen see working


http://video.vol.at/members.VOL_Live/flv-20080731_vollive_unfall_feldkirch_hk.flv/viewer.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*6 hour* waiting time at the Tauerntunnel:



> Zwischen Knoten Pongau und Tauerntunnel Wartezeit bis zu 6 Stunden, 35 km Stau Blockabfertigung


----------



## thun

Hehe. The reason: Bavaria went on summer holidays yesterday, and some other Bundesländer are back to work on monday. So the holiday travellers to and from Jesolo meet in the tube. Normal travel chaos day on the transit routes, I would say.


----------



## H123Laci

Chriszwolle said:


> *6 hour* waiting time at the Tauerntunnel:


maybe it's time to bore the 2nd tube... :bash:


----------



## ABRob

H123Laci said:


> maybe it's time to bore the 2nd tube... :bash:


Construction started in 2006, opening of the new tube in 2010 and 2x2 in 2011 
-> http://www.asfinag.at/index.php?module=Pagesetter&func=viewpub&tid=287&pid=13&idtopic=29


----------



## H123Laci

^^ oops. Im ramming open gates... :nuts:


----------



## Energy2003

*Blockabfertigung – ein notwendiges Übel*

_für alle die was lernen wollen _


Bei einröhrigen Tunnels ab etwa 1.000 Fahrzeugen pro Stunde
Mit dem Höhepunkt des Sommerreiseverkehrs laufen beim ÖAMTC die Telefone heiß. Immer wieder langen Anrufe von erbosten Autofahrern ein, die vor dem Tauern Tunnel (A10) im Stau stehen und die Sinnhaftigkeit der Blockabfertigung hinterfragen. Doch so lästig es sein mag, sich stundenlang vor dem Tunnel anzustellen, der Nutzen dieser Regelung rechtfertigt die Maßnahme. 


Was bedeutet Blockabfertigung eigentlich? 

Blockabfertigung wird immer dann verhängt, wenn durch hohes Verkehrsaufkommen die Kapazität des Tunnels ausgeschöpft ist. Die Autos werden dann nur mehr in Schüben in die Röhre gelassen. 

Damit werden im Wesentlichen drei Ziele verfolgt: 

1. Die Staugefahr im Tunnel selbst wird minimiert
2. Die Unfallgefahr im Tunnel wird reduziert
3. Die Luftqualität im Tunnel wird verbessert

Kommen 2000 Fahrzeuge pro Stunde auf der zweispurigen Autobahn noch halbwegs zügig voran, müssen sich diese im Tunnel einen Fahrstreifen teilen. Die logische Folge ist ein Stau. Das Abfangen dieses Ansturms vor dem Portal erspart den Autofahrern also einen Verkehrszusammenbruch im Tunnel. Blockabfertigung vor dem Tauern Tunnel wird ab einer Verkehrsdichte von 900 bis 1.200 Fahrzeugen pro Stunde verhängt. Die Blockabfertigungsanlage in Fahrtrichtung Süden befindet sich laut ÖAMTC zudem vor dem rund fünf Kilometer langen Anstiegstücks zum Tauern Tunnel Nordportal. So wird zusätzlich fahrzeugstrapazierender und umweltbelastender Stop-and-Go-Verkehr auf der Steigungsstrecke verhindert. 


Höhere Verkehrssicherheit und Schutz vor Abgasen

Wie die Aufzeichnungen des ÖAMTC zeigen, passieren die meisten Unfälle in Tunnels mit Gegenverkehr im Bereich des Portals und dem Abschnitt davor, wo der Richtungsverkehr in den Gegenverkehr geleitet wird. Dichter Kolonnenverkehr und Stau erhöhen das Risiko eines Unfalls ebenfalls. Das Anhalten des Verkehrs vor dem Risikobereich entschärft die Gefahrensituation, es ereignen sich weniger Unfälle. Zudem wird die Arbeit der Rettungskräfte im Falle eines Unfalls durch leichtere Zufahrt zur Unglücksstelle erheblich erleichtert. 

Indem nur eine bestimmte Anzahl von Fahrzeugen den Tunnel passieren darf, wird auch die Luftqualität gewährleistet. Bei durchgehendem Stop-and-Go-Verkehr steigt die Schadstoffbelastung der Autofahrer durch die Abgase. 

Ein Trost für die Reisenden: Im Juni 2011 werden beiden Röhren des Tauern Tunnels für den Verkehr freigegeben. Dann ist hier die Blockabfertigung so gut wie passé. Lediglich bei extremer Verkehrsüberlastung, die sich dann aber auf wenige Tage beschränken dürfte, könnte auch nach dem Vollausbau von Tauern- und Katschberg Tunnel Blockabfertigung notwendig sein. Dies sieht man laut ÖAMTC auch beim Wolfsberg Tunnel: Obwohl dieser über zwei Röhren verfügt, wird der Verkehr hier in Einzelfällen nur mehr blockweise abgefertigt.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Makes sense. The last thing you want is massive traffic jams inside tunnels. Very dangerous, people could panic, bad air quality, etc.


----------



## thun

Hochinteressant. Vielen Dank fürs posten, wo hast Du das denn her?


----------



## Bahnsteig4

> maybe it's time to bore the 2nd tube...


Maybe it's (high) time our neighbours start to learn to organize their trips...


----------



## keber

Energy2003 said:


> Ein Trost für die Reisenden: Im Juni 2011 werden beiden Röhren des Tauern Tunnels für den Verkehr freigegeben. Dann ist hier die Blockabfertigung so gut wie passé. Lediglich bei extremer Verkehrsüberlastung, die sich dann aber auf wenige Tage beschränken dürfte, könnte auch nach dem Vollausbau von Tauern- und Katschberg Tunnel Blockabfertigung notwendig sein. Dies sieht man laut ÖAMTC auch beim Wolfsberg Tunnel: Obwohl dieser über zwei Röhren verfügt, wird der Verkehr hier in Einzelfällen nur mehr blockweise abgefertigt.


I don't understand pretty well: although in 2011 both tubes will be opened for traffic, Blockabfertigung is still to be considered. Why that? Why would traffic jams happen before tunnels, if they are built for same traffic density as incoming motorways?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Tunnels are capacity reducing objects. That way, the traffic can jam, and they want to avoid that with blockabfertigung. Obviously, the waiting lines would be much shorter with 2x2 lanes.


----------



## Verso

Yes, traffic also jams before the Croatian tunnels Mala Kapela and Sveti Rok, even when they make them one-way.


----------



## H123Laci

Chriszwolle said:


> ^^ Tunnels are capacity reducing objects.


why is that?
maybe b/c of the longer following distance?

what is the english for "blockabfertigung"?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

People take longer following distances because they have fewer overview on the traffic. 

Blockabfertigung = dosing traffic.


----------



## Energy2003

interesting question: 

when the cars just drive in one direction, there´s more air change or not ?! 

cause when to lanes drive in the same direction the wind goes >>>>>

in normal way ><><><> and so on ... 

but i think it´s veeeeeery minimum 

@H123Laci: i think tunnel driving has to do a lot with psychology


----------



## H123Laci

Chriszwolle said:


> Blockabfertigung = dosing traffic.


and does it mean "alternating traffic flow" too or only stopping traffic before the tunnel, when traffic in the tunnel starts slowing?

it seems to me that alternating traffic flow reduces the capacity significantly, b/c there are long delays between direction change...
the longer the tunnel the longer the delay...


----------



## thun

@ energy: I would say that the much more important effect than the wind by cars are the small traffic-free pauses (when changing the way-of-right) which allows to remove much more air from the tunnel than with constant traffic, but I'm not sure about that either.

Btw. Does anyone know how long one way-of-right (or how you would call it) at the Tauern-Blockabfertigung is?


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> Yes, traffic also jams before the Croatian tunnels Mala Kapela and Sveti Rok, even when they make them one-way.


well, they give them one way when jams are allready made. but it's true that jams appear at shorter tunnels with 2 tubes (for instance at Plasina). as Chris said - tunnels are just capaity reducing objects. good thing is that when you have 2 tubes, only speed is reduced, there is no waiting in lines (As when you have only 1 tube)


----------



## Tauernautobahn

On Sunday I made a trip from Donnersbachwald :nuts: in Styria to Bischofshofen in Salzburg.
Sorry for the bad quality but I only had my mobile phone with me.

My route was:

B75 Donnersbachwald-Trautenfels
B320/E651 Trautenfels-Schladming-Radstadt-Interchange Ennstal
A10/E55 Interchange Ennstal-Interchange Bischofshofen
B159 Interchange Bischofshofen Nord-Bischofshofen Center










Let's start in Donnersbachwald, a village of 350 inhabitants in the middle of nowhere 
We are on regional road (Landesstraße) B75 "Glattjoch Straße" which is a bit special because there are two seperated parts of it. In former times it was planned to connect the two parts by a tunnel under the "Glattjoch" but it has never been built.









B75 between Irdning and Trautenfels









At the northern End of the northern part of B75









Now we're on B320/E651 "Ennstal Straße", the main connection between Salzburg and Graz. Once there were plans to build an expressway (Schnellstraße) on that route but it has never been built because of a bird (Wachtelkönig, don't know the name in English) and so the traffic has to go on a normal road :bash:
















































































































































































Road works on the bypass of Schladming








































































































Horrible sign at the Interchange of B99 to Villach, Tamsweg and Obertauern and B320/E651
For the next few kms until we reach the A10 motorway B99 and B320 follow the same route
















Interchange Radstadt Ost (east) ahead
































Crossing Altenmarkt west, the last one before the motorway. 
B99 leaves us again.








Finally, we get to motorway A10 (Interchange Ennstal)
















Distance sign








Interchange Eben im Pongau ahead
















Interchange Hüttau (entrance only in this direction)








Interchange Ponagau/Bischofshofen in 2000 m
































Bischofshofen, the end of my journey


----------



## Verso

^^ Thanks for the photos! Lovely nature.  And the B320/E651 isn't that bad at all.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It'll probably increase the public debt. So our grandchildren pay the price of our dickin' around. 

Congestion is probably not seen as important enough to increase public debt. The Netherlands had a quite good policy in decreasing public debt, we're now in the 40 - 50% range (don't know exactly). Compare that to the extreme public debts of Belgium, Italy or Japan. The US isn't doing that bad though the absolute number is huge.


----------



## Bahnsteig4

> So our grandchildren pay the price of our dickin' around.


No, they won't. Just as little as we do. Debt is something no one ever pays back - it just keeps increasing without anyone really caring. But that's too much of an off-topic topic.


----------



## Timon91

^^The US thought the could lend money forever. Now they discovered they can't. So it's the children and grandchildren of the sixties and seventies paying the price now


----------



## Nukleusri

S31 near Wr.Neustadt

















somewhere on A2 (direction Graz)








:lol:


----------



## Dino S

Nukleusri said:


> S31 near Wr.Neustadt


WTF???


----------



## Bahnsteig4

Really, WTF???


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've heard about that? Isn't this near Neusiedler See?


----------



## Nukleusri

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've heard about that? Isn't this near Neusiedler See?


This was taken at Raststation Guntramsdorf (km 14 of A2 dir.Graz) after Wr.Neudorf exit, about 55 km of Neusidler See


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Okay  I thought the Neusiedler See surroundings were a favorable environment for snakes to live


----------



## Nukleusri

Well Wiener Neustädter Kanal is near so it could be possible  (I think that motorway passes over it)


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> Okay  I thought the Neusiedler See surroundings were a favorable environment for snakes to live


As I was reading in newspapers, this sign is not because of some snakes - and, c'mon, Austria does not have lethal snakes near water, only vipers in mountainous regions.

It is a try to prevent (look at first two languages) to take a pee in the bushes instead of taking a (paying) toilet on motorway service station.


----------



## RS.ban

^^hahah 
typical


----------



## enschede-er

If i ride on a austrian motorways , i see always they have good asphalts and shiny new barriers are those new motorways??? and when Austria have build there first motorway?


----------



## Verso

Geesh.


----------



## Verso

Huh? I was talking about the sign...


----------



## enschede-er

ow i tought you talked about me , excuse


----------



## RS.ban

enschede-er said:


> If i ride on a austrian motorways , i see always they have good asphalts and shiny new barriers are those new motorways??? and when Austria have build there first motorway?


There are many bad sections on Austrian motorways, especially A2.


----------



## Timon91

I never knew that Austria had some lethal snakes.


----------



## x-type

edit


----------



## x-type

keber said:


> It is a try to prevent (look at first two languages) to take a pee in the bushes instead of taking a (paying) toilet on motorway service station.


yeah, not putting german at first place means tha it has something with peeing, rubbish or stealing. interesting is lack of balkanian languages (which can be seen all way down A2 and A9 at "rubbish" signs) - croatian, serbian, romanian, bulgarian, turkish, albanian, greek


Timon91 said:


> I never knew that Austria had some lethal snakes.


i guess that Vipera Berus lives all round the Europe


----------



## x-type

i have heard that A9 between St. Pankraz and Klaus is finnished, is that right or wrong information?


----------



## Verso

All of A9 was completed a few years ago.


----------



## keber

Yes, but not in full profile.


----------



## x-type

i'm asking about full profile


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Aren't there some one-tubed tunnels?


----------



## x-type

2 longest ones, Gleinalm and Bosruck. but i remember 10 km long section in 2 directions with lots of tunnels (St. Pankraz - Klaus), aldo some longer than 2 km. we should get somebody who passed there recently to tell us. i tell you, some people told me that it has been upgraded, but somehow i don't believe it.


----------



## keber

Looking at Asfinag site (here and here), it will be finished no earlier than 2020. Considering only 500 milion euro for all remaining tunnels it is quite dissapointing, especially because you pay extra money for those tunnels.

And for Gleinalmtunnel I dind't find any plans or dates for completion. Probably not until 2020.
Ahh yes, also:








an accident 7 years ago from that tunnel - 5 death.


----------



## Radish2

rower2000 said:


> The most expensive option, i.e., an almost 10 km long tunnel under Danube and Lobau, is already what is planned. Even a special ventilation concept is planned to avoid the construction of ventilation shafts within the boundaries of the Danube floodplains national park.
> 
> The problem is, our greenies do not accept that traffic won't become less just because of not building roads. It has taken us in the Bregenz area almost 30 years to convince the politicians that a 2nd tube of Pfänder tunnel is necessary (current ADT: 28,000)...


Green parties are very important now, but not building roads is probably the wrong way as Chris mentioned.


----------



## Verso

Not counting safety issues etc., but only congestion, I wonder, if second tubes are really necessary until we have to stop to pay for them anyway.


----------



## x-type

keber said:


> Looking at Asfinag site (here and here), it will be finished no earlier than 2020. Considering only 500 milion euro for all remaining tunnels it is quite dissapointing, especially because you pay extra money for those tunnels.
> 
> And for Gleinalmtunnel I dind't find any plans or dates for completion. Probably not until 2020.
> Ahh yes, also:


tnx. i heard earlier about late completion of that section, but today somebody told me it was finnished. now i see he told me wrong.


----------



## Energy2003

*A14 traffic to A96 (Bavaria)*

*so, cause we´ve nothing better to do, traffic @ last Saturday *
_(same would be in the other direction but i took the special way around the traffic)_

direction Germany Bregenz to Lindau 













i tried to give you new impressions in 1km steps


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Ah the winter holiday traffic


----------



## thun

Hm. The Korridorvignette seems to work really good. I can't remember so little traffic in the towns (Lindau - Bregenz - Höchst) like this christmas. Just another reason not throwing money senseless to ASFINAG.


----------



## Energy2003

of course, for you all, on my way back i drove through Bregenz (cause i had a termin there), and the traffic was ok, but not really good.

still car-after-car through the whole town


----------



## X236K

Any update regarding the Wien - Brno stretch...?


----------



## rower2000

Radish2 said:


> Green parties are very important now, but not building roads is probably the wrong way as Chris mentioned.


In contrast to many others participating in road or plane or construction forums, I do see the necessity of environmental protection. However, my interpretation of that is to build the roads/railways/etc. as environmentally friendly as possible. Let's take the example of Bregenz: one-tubed Pfändertunnel (designed for ADT 16,000 to 18,000, currently 28,000 ADT) and no high-ranking connection to Switzerland (axis Munich - Zurich). Thus, traffic both in Bregenz and on the motorway in front of the tunnel is congested on an almost daily basis. Now I'm pretty sure the additional greenhouse gases emitted by the induced traffic due to expansion of the Pfändertunnel and building a connection to Switzerland is more than offset by the decrease of fuel consumed in the not-any-more congested corridor after opening the high-rank connections.



thun said:


> Hm. The Korridorvignette seems to work really good. I can't remember so little traffic in the towns (Lindau - Bregenz - Höchst) like this christmas. Just another reason not throwing money senseless to ASFINAG.


Yes, I recently read a report on ORF online about a 5% increase of traffic in Pfändertunnel since introduction of the Korridorvignette, compared to the same month the year before! A comparable reduction of traffic on L190 was observed.


----------



## PLH

X236K said:


> Any update regarding the Wien - Brno stretch...?


once again


----------



## Mateusz

Wien-Mikulov ?


----------



## PLH

Anyone knows what's the best way to get from Brno to Salzburg and further to Mayrhofen? I'm especially interested in passing by Vienna.


----------



## x-type

PLH said:


> Anyone knows what's the best way to get from Brno to Salzburg and further to Mayrhofen? I'm especially interested in passing by Vienna.


i'd go via Znojmo, Krems and St. Pölten


----------



## PLH

Have you ever driven there?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The main problem would be the area north of the A1, which has no diagonal routes, nor motorway-like roads. I think you need to get to Krems and then St. Pölten and then take the A1 west. The problem is to get from Brno to Krems. It's over 110 kilometers as the crow flies, but probably much longer taking regional roads.


----------



## Bahnsteig4

The stretch between Horn and Krems through the Kamp Valley (B34) is picturesque but hardly what you would like if your destination is Salzburg...
It's hard, really. Unfortunately there is no really good connection between Brno and Ceske Budejovice, either.
I would suggest Brno - Znojmo - Haugsdorf - Hollabrunn - Stockerau - S5 - Krems. Fastest solution, I would say - you will still spend pointless hours in Lower Austria, though.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Is detouring via motorways passing through Bratislava not possibly faster? It's a lot more kilometers though, and you'll need an extra vignette.


----------



## x-type

Bahnsteig4 said:


> I would suggest Brno - Znojmo - Haugsdorf - Hollabrunn - Stockerau - S5 - Krems. Fastest solution, I would say - you will still spend pointless hours in Lower Austria, though.


that's is exactly what i was suggesting. in each case i would avoid Wien. it doesn't have much more state roads than mostly and probably recomended route usind road 7 in A. other route to consider about for me would be Český Těšín -11- Jablunkov -D3- Čadca - Žilina - D1 - Bratislava - D4-A6 - Wien - A1 bla bla... but here we have passing through Žilina, Považska Bistrica, Bratislava and Wien, what is not good. btw, i guess he's coming from Łodž


----------



## Verso

Haha, that's exactly what I was wondering a few days ago.  I made a whole bunch of calculations.  But aren't S33 and S5 actually motorways?


----------



## vlker

PLH said:


> Anyone knows what's the best way to get from Brno to Salzburg and further to Mayrhofen? I'm especially interested in passing by Vienna.


I can recommend you this route http://maps.google.cz/maps?f=d&saddr=Brno&daddr=Brn%C4%9Bnsk%C3%A1+to:B303%2FGrund+to:A22+to:48.173412,15.848122&hl=cs&geocode=%3BFaBV6QId_Dr1AA%3BFXse5gIdYQf1AA%3BFYJI4gIdHur2AA%3B&mra=dme&mrcr=0&mrsp=4&sz=12&via=1,2,3&sll=48.203854,15.922279&sspn=0.110748,0.30899&ie=UTF8&ll=48.654686,16.655273&spn=1.75634,4.943848&z=8 When we drive to alps (Tyrol and Salzburgerland), we use this route. Problematic roads are Pohořelice-Znojmo (quite narrow road - but you pass only one village, so the route is fast) and Tulln - Neulengbach (you go through some villages where you must get 50kph). But Znojmo - Tulln is in good shape (bypasses, expressway in some stretches and 2+1 for overtaking in the rest of non expressway stretches.


----------



## Radish2

I need your help, can you tell me which exit to take on the motorway to Passau, when I want to drive the alternative route which is not motorway and pass the other bridge, not the motorway bridge but the bridge with the German motorway A 94? I want to drive that road instead of the Passau road because that road feels very great and very smooth, I like it a lot and it has a lot of roundabouds.

Edit:
I know hwo the road is called, it´s called B141, Riederbundesstrasse, a very good road.


----------



## rower2000

Radish2 said:


> I need your help, can you tell me which exit to take on the motorway to Passau, when I want to drive the alternative route which is not motorway and pass the other bridge, not the motorway bridge but the bridge with the German motorway A 94? I want to drive that road instead of the Passau road because that road feels very great and very smooth, I like it a lot and it has a lot of roundabouds.
> 
> Edit:
> I know hwo the road is called, it´s called B141, Riederbundesstrasse, a very good road.


That would be exit "Ried im Innkreis". As an alternative, you can also use the next exit "Ort im Innkreis" and take the B148 to Braunau. So you would spare yourself the mess around Ried.


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## SeanT

I´ve red in the hungarian news that 4 austrian villages have made protests against the future A3-M85 motorway. This motorway should connect A3 with the hungarian M85 at Sopron. The hungarian side should be ready around 2013 but the austrians don´t even have the path of the motorway, so is Sopron will ever be connected to A3 with a motorway?:bash:


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## SeanT

The 4 villages are Kligenbach,Siegendorf,Zagersdorf and Wulkaprodersdorf. If any of us is interrested!!??


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## SeanT

Well The last news from both sides are: The motorway reach the border in 2013 in Hungary(M85), but only in 2016 in Austria(A3).hno:


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## H123Laci

^^ fucking nimbies... :bash:


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## Qwert

SeanT said:


> Well The last news from both sides are: The motorway reach the border in 2013 in Hungary(M85), but only in 2016 in Austria(A3).hno:


That's nothing. Slovakian D4 reached the border in 1999 and adjacent Austrian A6 was finished in 2007.:nuts:


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## x-type

Qwert said:


> That's nothing. Slovakian D4 reached the border in 1999 and adjacent Austrian A6 was finished in 2007.:nuts:


but D4 is 2,5 km long


----------



## Qwert

x-type said:


> but D4 is 2,5 km long


It's 3 km long. But I don't understand your point here. Back then it was part of much longer motorway D61. It was built along with D2 as connection of Bratislava with Hungary and Austria in late 90's. Together there was built about 18 km of motorways to establish this connection, which IMO can be compared to 22 km long A6.


----------



## LtBk

Sounds like Austria is slow on building stuff, or maybe I'm wrong.


----------



## Verso

^ You aren't. How many kms of motorways has it built in the last decade? 100?


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## Mateusz

XXI century ? Maybe 

XX ? Their whole network


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## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> ^ You aren't. How many kms of motorways has it built in the last decade? 100?


Well, their network is pretty much completed by now...


----------



## woho

I believe you mean that:
http://www.oebb.at/bau/de/Servicebalken/Webcam_Teaser/Webcam_Koralmbahn/Webcam_Koralmbahn_3.jsp

This will become the new railway connection between Graz and Klagenfurt - called "Koralmbahn".


----------



## pijanec

^^Thanks for link.


----------



## Verso

Second tube of the Katschbergtunnel (A10) is opened!


----------



## Timon91

Good! Is there also a second tube for the Tauerntunnel planned?


----------



## Verso

^ I think it's already U/C.


----------



## bojc

^^
http://www.asfinag.at


> Vollausbau Tauerntunnel
> 
> Baubeginn:
> Juli 2006
> 
> Geplante Verkehrsfreigabe:
> Gesamtfertigstellung Talröhre: Sommer 2010
> Anschließend Sanierung 1. Röhre
> Vollbetrieb im Richtungsverkehr: Juni 2011


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## woho

Second tube for Tauerntunnel will be finished in June 2011.


----------



## Radish2

Why will it take so long?


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## thun

Because its wrong, as you can read above. 
The second tube will be finished in summer 2010, but afterwards they'll renovate the old one, so in June 2011 both will run.

Btw., 4 years for such a long tube isn't bad at all!


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## wdw35

Any plans to extend the A10 Spittal Autobahnzubringer further west? I really think there's a need for a connection between the two north - south axes A2 (Suedautobahn)/A23 and A22... Who will do it first, Austria or Italy??


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## keber

I'm wondering too, but I think, that this is far future (or even Neverdone). I would be more than happy with faster 2-lane expressway construction until Lienz (it is advancing veeeery slowly) and an appropriate bypass of Lienz.


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## Mateusz

Some kind of Schnellstrasse ?


----------



## keber

Yes. Some parts are already built, but it still takes quite a time from Spittal to Lienz because of many villages to pass. And passing Lienz is often very slow because of numerous traffic lights and intersections. Appropriate bypass could easily save at least 10 minutes of driving towards Felbertaurentunnel.


----------



## Rijeka

wdw35 said:


> Any plans to extend the A10 Spittal Autobahnzubringer further west? I really think there's a need for a connection between the two north - south axes A2 (Suedautobahn)/A23 and A22... Who will do it first, Austria or Italy??


I've seen on the Italian forum there is a long term project of constructing the A27 further north, and connecting it with A23 around Tolmezzo, with a possible connection to Austria. But I guess it's a far future.


----------



## keber

Found something about future modernization of Drautal Bundesstrasse B100 Spittal - Lienz:
http://www.go-lienz-osttirol.net/e66/oberkaernten/greifenburg-doerfler.htm



> Obergottesfeld - Kleblach 3,2 km - 6,9 Mio € 2,16 Mio €/km
> Lengholz Radlach (Umfahrung Steinfeld) 6,9 km - 15 Mio € 2.17 Mio €/km
> *Patsch Berg (Umfahrung Greifenburg beantragte Trasse (Tunnel) 6,4 km -35,5 Mio € 5,54 Mio €/km*
> _Berg - Dellach (Umfahrung Dellach) 5,7 km -14,5 Mio € 2,55 Mio _€/km


First two parts are already dinished and in use.
Third part with 3 cut-and-covers totaling 1,7 km in length (pretty much unnecessary in my opinion) should begin construction this year:
http://www.kleinezeitung.at/kaernten/oberkaernten/1608116/index.do

For about 9000 AADT forecasted traffic in 2020 no motorway is necessary. Good road without going through villages however doesn't hurt.


----------



## pijanec

If you continue your travel toward Felbertaurentunnel wouldn't it be faster to go through Salzburg?

_Some parts are already built, but it still takes quite a time from Spittal to Lienz because of many villages to pass. _

Don't all those villages mainly have 70 km/h speed limit?


----------



## keber

>>> If you continue your travel toward Felbertaurentunnel wouldn't it be faster to go through Salzburg?
Through Bischofshofen. It depends, where do you want to go. Most economic way to go to Tirol is through Lienz and Italy. With planned bypasses also the fastest way.

>>> Don't all those villages mainly have 70 km/h speed limit?
No.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Clearing of the Großglockner Hochalpenstraße:


----------



## janiss

^^ ufff, when was those pictures taken?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I found them on the WetterZentrale weather forum (German language), so I guess they're no more than a couple days old.


----------



## Energy2003

seems possible, its still very cold in the night ... even on 500m height


----------



## Timon91

There is also a lot of snow in Switzerland, so why not in Austria....


----------



## panda80

Timon91 said:


> There is also a lot of snow in Switzerland, so why not in Austria....


when i passed through bernina pass 17 days ago there were about 3-4 m of snow near the road.also fluela pass was closed, so i had to take a big detour to go from davos to bolzano.


----------



## keber

Having driven through A10 and A2 I must say, that concrete pavement on those two motorways is slowly showing its age. Although it is generally in good quality, I must for once agree with Radi (my oh my :lol, concrete on some older pavements is pretty bumpy, but not with potholes but with very short and fast bumps between plates, which becomes quite annoying after few hours of driving with my car, which has pretty stiff suspension (like most japanese cars have). Even just 10 years old section of A2 near Graz is quite bumpy. Asphalt still looks like to be better option for cars with stiff suspension. Driving with bus is however different story. Only newest concrete parts, like renovated 2x4 section of A2 south of Vienna have superb quality.

Also is there any major reconstruction planned for curvy, hilly and quite bumpy section of A2 south of Wiener Neustadt, which also has very narrow emergency lanes or even none at all?


----------



## mapman:cz

Cool photo of tunnel Tradenberg on S1 (in Bau) - H123Laci may "like" those huge cut&cover sections  :









- laabmayr.at

And another photo of S1 near Wien, seems like CZ territory is all around 








source: wikipedia commons


----------



## Verso

^^ Is A5 already U/C?! What about this S1, where is it being built?


I'd suggest to go to Hungary (or at least Budapest) over Maribor/Slovenia.  Unless you don't have a vignette. 








http://lupiros02.lu.funpic.de/s-2008-07c/s-2008-07c.html


----------



## H123Laci

mapman:cz said:


> H123Laci may "like" those huge cut&cover sections  :


not yet but Im starting to like it... :lol:


----------



## H123Laci

Verso said:


> ^^ Is A5 already U/C?! What about this S1, where is it being built?


check the source: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiener_Außenring_Schnellstraße


----------



## mapman:cz

Yes, A5 and S1 are pretty much U/C, check those ASFiNAG links:

A5
http://www.asfinag.at/index.php?module=Pagesetter&type=file&func=get&tid=287&fid=ddownload1&pid=8

S1
http://www.asfinag.at/index.php?module=Pagesetter&type=file&func=get&tid=287&fid=ddownload1&pid=11


----------



## mapman:cz

H123Laci said:


> not yet but Im starting to like it... :lol:


Whoa! That's some progress ))) 

I think that there are really unnecessary long cut&cover section, but Austrian planning after 2000 is very famous for that, just look at the S10 project and it will be as clear as fresh air


----------



## PLH

Where can I find pics of the Schwechat runway viadukt on A4?


----------



## BND

^^ google is our best friend 




























http://www.potocnik.net/data/content.php?year=1997&prj=A4 driving


----------



## Verso

^ Potočnik. :lol:



H123Laci said:


> check the source: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiener_Außenring_Schnellstraße





mapman:cz said:


> Yes, A5 and S1 are pretty much U/C, check those ASFiNAG links:
> 
> A5
> http://www.asfinag.at/index.php?module=Pagesetter&type=file&func=get&tid=287&fid=ddownload1&pid=8
> 
> S1
> http://www.asfinag.at/index.php?module=Pagesetter&type=file&func=get&tid=287&fid=ddownload1&pid=11


I had no idea, I just knew about the existing part of S1. What about Czechs, are they building anything from Brno towards Vienna?


----------



## mapman:cz

Verso said:


> ^ Potočnik. :lol:
> 
> I had no idea, I just knew about the existing part of S1. What about Czechs, are they building anything from Brno towards Vienna?


No, new stretches of R52 are in EIA phase, planned begin of construction in 2011. Half of R52 is in operation since 1996.


----------



## Mateusz

What about S1 Sussenbrunn-Schwechat ? This will complete Vienna's Bypass


----------



## pijanec

mapman:cz said:


> Cool photo of tunnel Tradenberg on S1 (in Bau) - H123Laci may "like" those huge cut&cover sections  :


Austrian's wildlife isn't really abundant so why are those cut&covers so long?


----------



## keber

Especially in the middle of cultivated land, where wild life is not welcome at all.
NIMBY's in Austria are one of the most powerful in whole world.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, where aren't NIMBY's strong these days... Our laws and legal situation gives these people too much influence. Input and compensation: OK, but it shouldn't be that a small group of individuals can delay very important projects for years or even decades.


----------



## Timoth12

Mateusz said:


> What about S1 Sussenbrunn-Schwechat ? This will complete Vienna's Bypass


The works should commence in 2011, completition date is 2018 due to the tunnel uder the Danube. Check out the leaflet from May:
http://www.asfinag.at/index.php?module=Pagesetter&type=file&func=get&tid=287&fid=ddownload5&pid=49


----------



## Mateusz

Cool info

I really like this whole PR of this organisation, detailed information about projects presented on leaflets in regular periods of time


----------



## wdw35

So I didn't see an organized, systematic analysis of what AT needs in terms of motorway development mostly.
I can only speak as a Romanian traveller who has bypassed the motorway system on few occasions recently, but this is what I found to be needed:
:cheers:

1. A wider motorway bypass of Wien.
From east to west. This should start at the A6/A4 interchange... follow west, south of the existing A4, reaching the A2/A3 interchange and finally reach A21 at Alland.
Of course, we may dream of this Wien extended bypass reaching A1 west of St. Polten, but that may be a bit too far fetched.

2. Immediately bring the route Innsbruck - Lochau to full motorway standards, including a direct motorway connection to Liechtenstein/Schweiz. I mean... wtf? no motorway connection to Switzerland?

3. The system north of Vienna to CZ... no comments needed.

What else? What do you guys think that the real motorway construction priorities of Austria are?


----------



## Radish2

That´s funny, 2 motorways to Slovenia and 1 toHungary, but no motorway to Switzerland.


----------



## bozata90

Radish2 said:


> you don´t get it, it is great for Romania, (and for Bulgaria Ljulin motorway) that they work at night and Saturdays/ Sundays, but in Austria if the employer hires people to work at those times, he will still have to pay extra money, even if he uses different people that work only those shifts, law is law and even if you hire a person only to work at Saturdays and Sundays you will have to pay the extra money.


The law is the same in Bulgaria... 
№ 94.ЙЙ/112 от 11.10.2004 г.

Съгласно чл. 6 от Наредбата за допълнителните и другите трудови възнаграждения за всеки отработен нощен час или за част от него между 22,00 и 6,00 ч. на работниците и служителите се заплаща допълнително трудово възнаграждение за нощен труд в размер, не по-малък от 0,072 лв.

Допълнителното трудово възнаграждение за нощния труд се заплаща за всеки отработен нощен час, независимо от начина за отчитане (изчисляване) на работното време (подневно или сумирано).

При подневно отчитане на работното време и при работа на смени, чиято нощна продължителност на работното време е по-малка от тази на дневното, трудовото възнаграждение, заработено по трудови норми, се увеличава с коефициент, равен на отношението между нормалната продължителност на дневното и нощното работно време (чл. 7, ал. 1 от наредбата).

При сумирано отчитане на работното време нощните часове се превръщат в дневни с коефициент, равен на отношението между нормалната продължителност на дневното и нощното работно време, установени за подневно отчитане на работното време за съответното работно място, а трудовото възнаграждение, заработено по трудови норми, се увеличава с коефициент, равен на отношението между часовете, получени след превръщането на нощните часове в дневни, и действително отработените часове през месеца или установения друг период (чл. 7, ал. 2 и 3 от наредбата).



Съгласно разпоредбата на чл. 150 от КТ (изм. ДВ, бр. 52 от 2004 г.), за положен извънреден труд се заплаща трудово възнаграждение в увеличен размер съгласно чл. 262, както следва:

Положеният извънреден труд се заплаща с увеличение, уговорено между работника или служителя и работодателя, но не по-малко от:

1. 50 на сто - за работа през работните дни;

2. 75 на сто - за работа през почивните дни;

3.100 на сто - за работа през дните на официалните празници;

4. 50 на сто - за работа при сумирано изчисляване на работното време.

Когато не е уговорено друго, увеличението се изчислява върху трудовото възнаграждение, определено с трудовия договор.

Let's end this endless off-topic.


----------



## Radish2

If you post it here, you should have spent 10 min and translated it, do you think others can read cirillic? :bash:


----------



## panda80

Radish2 said:


> If you post it here, you should have spent 10 min and translated it, do you think others can read cirillic? :bash:


i can read cirillic, but unfortunately i don't understand bulgarian.


----------



## Ban.BL

Radish2 said:


> That´s funny, 2 motorways to Slovenia and 1 toHungary, but no motorway to Switzerland.


one word Alps


----------



## Energy2003

^^ there are more Alps between Austria and Italy, than to Switzerland!


----------



## Ban.BL

It is/was more important for Austria to be connected with Süd Tirol than with SUI


----------



## Energy2003

^^ was this a question ?!


----------



## Verso

Ban.BL said:


> one word Alps


The short section between A14 and the Swiss border was meant. There are no Alps there, but a bird paradise.


----------



## DSzumaher

A13 Brenner Autobahn (see more pics, click above link)

Perhaps remove the border buildings and build a viaduct
























































































































Mautstelle Schönberg








































































Europabrücke
















































Little OT. Bergisel-Schanze.








Bergisel-Tunnel - 484 m

























to be continued...


----------



## DSzumaher

A12 Inntal Autobahn
Innsbruck-Amras - A/D border

































































































Whiff of freshness (surface, rails)








































ooh ... There is München (D)








Occasionally on the left side








And here without (D)








Ausfahrt, no Ausfahrt
























Strange mileage. One red, one white, it is different.








Service station in the german side








































Distinctive mark of the border. Limit to 100.

















the end.


----------



## toomee

Great pictures!


----------



## Radish2

Yes, the pics are awesome, awesome mountains.


----------



## Palance

DSzumaher said:


> Strange mileage. One red, one white, it is different.


Great pictures indeed!

This is not strange: The orange sign on the left is meant to been seen from the air, like helicopters (in case of traffic jams or accidents)


----------



## DSzumaher

Thanks for clarifying. I didn't see something like this before. Don't look nice, but turn out to be practical. On German A93 Inntal also seen. 

Only me wonders background color (white, red). They can be different. This is of some importance?

Does it apply mainly in wooded areas?


----------



## bozata90

DSzumaher said:


> Thanks for clarifying. I didn't see something like this before. Don't look nice, but turn out to be practical. On German A93 Inntal also seen.
> 
> Only me wonders background color (white, red). They can be different. This is of some importance?
> 
> Does it apply mainly in wooded areas?


No, in Austria they put these every 10 kms. The colour is orange, because it allows better visibility...


----------



## Verso

Why is Salzburg signed in Graz, whereas Linz very rarely? :weird:


----------



## Mateusz

I don't like old Austrian signs, they creep me out


----------



## TommyLopez

Yes, sometimes it´s really oldschool..:nuts: But though I don´t mind at all


----------



## snowman159

Verso said:


> Why is Salzburg signed in Graz, whereas Linz very rarely? :weird:


Maybe because foreigners are more likely to know Salzburg than Linz? I have no idea. But Salzburg is known all over the world and an important (2nd only to Vienna) tourist destination.

What cities are signed on the northbound A9 in Graz? Do you have pictures?


----------



## Verso

I'm not saying Salzburg shouldn't be signed, but Linz should be too. If I had to choose just one, it would be Linz. In the city I've only seen Salzburg signed; as for A9, I don't have pics, but if you come from Maribor, Linz isn't signed at all, when you can turn for Vienna. Only when you can turn for Klagenfurt, Linz also appears. I usually don't go for Linz/Salzburg there, so I didn't notice it before.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Both Salzburg and Linz are not directly on A9, but Salzburg is far more off the A9 route, so Linz would make more sense. Wels is probably too small to sign all the way from Graz.


----------



## Foolish Farmer

Radish2 said:


> That´s funny, 2 motorways to Slovenia and 1 to Hungary


In the near future we will have also a motorway heading to the czech republic!:cheers:

edit: you've forgot the A6 to Slovakia ^^


----------



## Verso

You don't necessarily have to continue on A8 or go to Germany anyway. There are people (particularly Austrians) who actually go to the city of Linz.


----------



## SeanT

Foolish Farmer said:


> In the near future we will have also a motorway heading to the czech republic!:cheers:
> 
> edit: you've forgot the A6 to Slovakia ^^


...and one more to Hungary, at least from Hungary to A border.


----------



## Foolish Farmer

SeanT said:


> ...and one more to Hungary, at least from Hungary to A border.


What do you mean exactly?


----------



## x-type

Foolish Farmer said:


> What do you mean exactly?


S7 Riegersdorf - Heiligenkreuz


----------



## Alle

I like this rail overpass. Altough the color may seem boring, but I guess its more economical to maintain it that way.


----------



## thun

On the Inntalautobahn near Rattenberg, if I remember right?


----------



## Energy2003

^^ joop. a few miles after innsbruck in direction kufstein


----------



## DSzumaher

It's here:


----------



## Timon91

A10 Salzburg-Villach, Tauernautobahn

Since there are hardly any alternatives for the Tauerntunnel when going to Bled we decided just to take it but pass through on a quiet moment. This was on a quiet fridaymorning, so no problems at all. The motorway itself wasn't busy anyway. 

Here we go:

1. I know, this isn't the A10 yet 










2. Unsharp, but enough to see that this wasn't a clear day.










3. 










4. Bridge ahead.










5. We're following Villach.










6. I like this kind of viaducts.










7. Again unsharp, but "Co ke" is still visible 










8. Baustelle










9. It's getting somewhat hilly 










10. 










11. Still climbing.










12. Almost driving in the clouds.










13. Raststation Lungau ahead. We had coffee over there.










14. The tollstation for the Tauern- and Katschbergtunnel. I forgot to make pictures of the Tauerntunnel :bash:










15. Northern entrance of the Katschbergtunnel. It has got two tubes now :banana:










16. South of the Katschbergtunnel,










17. Austrian and Slovene vignette. We bought the Austrian one in the Netherlands, and the Slovene one at the tollstation for the Tauern- and Katschbergtunnel.










18. 










19. Almost empty.










20. Houses on the slope.










21. Some blue sky 










22. 










23. Exit Gmünd, just north of Spittal.










24. Only a caravan and a truck in front of us.










25. Ah, as well as some cars 










26. Empty again.










27. Wolfsbergtunnel.










28. 










29. It can be busy on this motorway, but this morning it wasn't 










30. 










31. 










32. 










33. 










34. Knoten Villach 23 km










35. 










36. Caravan.










37. 










38. Knoten Villach. We follow "Slowenien" 










39. We turn right here.










That's it, I hope you liked it


----------



## snowman159

Thanks for the nice photos!

I was passing through on the A10 Sunday night and southbound Katschbergtunnel had a variable speed limit set to 60kph and the left lane closed for no apparent reason. About 1000ft before the exit the limit was raised back to 100kph on both lanes. :nuts:

Even at 3am there were delays at Tauerntunnel, so I took the scenic route and entered the A10 again at the main toll plaza.

(btw, if it weren't for the signs I could have sworn I was in .de or .nl)


----------



## Verso

^^ Mountains in the Netherlands? Germany isn't very mountainous either.

Nice pics, Timon, it's my favorite Austrian motorway.


Timon91 said:


> 38. Knoten Villach. We follow "Slowenien"


It's good you could read anything through such a windshield.


----------



## Timon91

Yeah  It was quite a coincidence that the largest piece of dirt was directly in front of "Slowenien". The windshield got worse though (wait for the A2 and A1 pics from Slovenia), because we hiked near Rudno Polje, and they were building a biathlon stadiom + hotel over there. The car was full of dirt and dust when we returned :lol:


----------



## Verso

Can't wait for dirty pics then.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> Can't wait for dirty pics then.


Excuse me?

This forum is about roads!


----------



## Verso

I didn't mean porn... says a lot about you.


----------



## Timon91

A11 Villach-Karawankentunnel, Karawankenautobahn

The A11 is a short (21 km) motorway that connects the Karawankentunnel to the Austrian motorway network. Usually it's quiet, but during holidays waiting times for the tunnel can reach a few hours. 

I've resized the pictures to 800×600 pixels, because I got some complaints on the Wegenforum. Different forumsoftware is used for that forum, so people with a small screen could only see part of the pictures. 

1. End of the A10, beginning of the A11.










2. Today is a quiet day.










3. Exit St. Niklas an der Drau. There are only two exits on this motorway, and a Raststätte.










4. No shoulder, but this is not as irritating as on the German A8, for example.










5. Some cars.










6. 










7. Second, and last, exit of the A11: St. Jakob im Rosental. 










8. Short section with a shoulder.










9. 










10. Do we really need a vignette for Slovenia? :doh: 










11. Tollstation ahead.










12. This is probably what used to be the border control.










13. €6,50 for us. We spent almost 90 euros on tolls this holiday.










14. Shortly after the tollstation.










15. Approaching the tunnel, 2×1 now.










16. Entrance of the tunnel. It's quite funny that even without signs in the tunnel the border would have been clearly visible: the Slovene side is much darker. Still it's not as dark as the Tauerntunnel, which was the most horrible tunnel of the holiday. The most beautiful tunnels were the new tunnels of the Trieste bypass.










That's it. Hope you liked it!


----------



## keber

Timon91 said:


> The A11 is a short (21 km) motorway that connects the Karawankentunnel to the Austrian motorway network. Usually it's quiet, but during holidays waiting times for the tunnel can reach a few hours.


Never heard about that since border control is gone.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, there was even a 2 hour waiting line two weekends ago according to the ÖAMTC.


----------



## Timon91

The fact that the tunnel is only 2×1 and the tollstation cause the jams. It's not as bad as the Tauerntunnel though. When waiting time for the Tauerntunnel was 7 hours, two weeks ago, waiting time for the Karawankentunnel was 'only' 2 hours.

-edit- Shit, Chris was quicker


----------



## Coccodrillo

> 16. Entrance of the tunnel. It's quite funny that even without signs in the tunnel the border would have been clearly visible: the Slovene side is much darker. Still it's not as dark as the Tauerntunnel, which was the most horrible tunnel of the holiday. The most beautiful tunnels were the new tunnels of the Trieste bypass.





> The fact that the tunnel is only 2×1 and the tollstation cause the jams. It's not as bad as the Tauerntunnel though. When waiting time for the Tauerntunnel was 7 hours, two weeks ago, waiting time for the Karawankentunnel was 'only' 2 hours.


I imagine that the Tauern tunnel is still single tube...but I think the second tube is under construction. Usually when second tube of a tunnel is opened the first is closed for renovation.


----------



## Verso

Timon91 said:


> It's quite funny that even without signs in the tunnel the border would have been clearly visible: the Slovene side is much darker.


It also has less and smaller ventilators.

Anyway, yeah, it doesn't make sense that there would be no queues in the summer. But does it even make sense to build second tubes of such tunnels, when there're queues because of toll stations?
Nice pics, of course.


----------



## Timon91

Coccodrillo said:


> I imagine that the Tauern tunnel is still single tube...but I think the second tube is under construction. Usually when second tube of a tunnel is opened the first is closed for renovation.


The second tube of the Tauerntunnel is supposed to be finished in autumn 2010. Hopefully they'll give the first tube a facelift. It won't solve the jams though. There is still a tollbooth in between both tunnels.


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yeah, there was even a 2 hour waiting line two weekends ago according to the ÖAMTC.


Oh, OK, two weeks ago I was waiting in some other waiting lines. :lol:
But except few weekends in the summer A11 is practically empty and very rarely happens, that you overtake more than 5 vehicles over whole route.


----------



## keber

Timon91 said:


> The second tube of the Tauerntunnel is supposed to be finished in autumn 2010. Hopefully they'll give the first tube a facelift. It won't solve the jams though. There is still a tollbooth in between both tunnels.


Facelift of first tunnel is planned so completion of Taurentunnel is planned for spring of 2011. I don't see tollbooth as major obstacle except for few weekends.

Actually it is amazing when all the people go to vacation and are complaining about occasional jams, but they are silent about everyday jams at commuting to their work.


----------



## snowman159

Verso said:


> ^^ Mountains in the Netherlands? Germany isn't very mountainous either.


What I meant was that 90% of all cars were either German or Dutch. I didn't see any mountains, because it was dark.


----------



## Falusi

I took these pics when I was in Germany ~2 weeks before.

1. From the Raststation St. Pölten looking west (A1).









2. On my way to back. A little traffic jam on the A21.









3. The empty side. With the colour of the bus...









4. Bridge repairing.









5.










Note:
The condition of A4 isn't good...
S1, A21 and A25 is good.
A1 has mostly 3 lanes but the concrete surface...
A8 is good but there are a lot of roadworks mostly shoulder widening (or adding olus 1 lane?) and noise barrier placing.


----------



## Coccodrillo

panda80 said:


> when i passed through bernina pass 17 days ago there were about 3-4 m of snow near the road.also fluela pass was closed, so i had to take a big detour to go from davos to bolzano.


There was the option of the Vereina Tunnel, then Zernez, Ofenpass, Mustair, if they were opened.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You gotta love going on vacation:


> A10 Tauern-Autobahn: Salzburg Richtung Villach Zwischen Knoten Pongau und Tauerntunnel 35 km Stau, Wartezeit bis zu 6 Stunden Blockabfertigung


----------



## Timon91

Seems like I chose the right days to pass through this tunnel


----------



## panda80

ChrisZwolle said:


> You gotta love going on vacation:


In this case I don't understand why people don't use the radstadter tauern pass road and prefer to stay stuck in that kind of traffic jam.In this case overhead automatic signalization should do the work and advise people to use parallel roads.


----------



## snowman159

panda80 said:


> In this case I don't understand why people don't use the radstadter tauern pass road and prefer to stay stuck in that kind of traffic jam.In this case overhead automatic signalization should do the work and advise people to use parallel roads.


Obviously the towns along the parallel roads don't want that traffic either. Tourism is very important in that region and especially Obertauern also caters to wealthier tourists. That's probably why Radstädter Tauern is such a well kept secret. Even on the radio they advise people to take huge detours (e.g. Felbertauern), but no mention of Tauern Pass.


----------



## Timon91

panda80 said:


> In this case I don't understand why people don't use the radstadter tauern pass road and prefer to stay stuck in that kind of traffic jam.In this case overhead automatic signalization should do the work and advise people to use parallel roads.


There aren't that many alternatives, unfortunately.


----------



## Palance

For the Karawankentunnel, there is a good alternative: The Loiblpass (Ljubelj) of Würzenpas (Korensko Sedlo). Cheaper, more quiet and great roads to drive on.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Würzenpass has a grade of 18%, which makes it not suitable for caravans.


----------



## Timon91

Palance said:


> For the Karawankentunnel, there is a good alternative: The Loiblpass (Ljubelj) of Würzenpas (Korensko Sedlo). Cheaper, more quiet and great roads to drive on.


Yeah, but this is not for the Tauerntunnel. I've got a nice picture of the border station of the Würzenpas btw, taken from a mountain ridge. I'll upload it later


----------



## keber

Even Loiblpass is not suitable for caravans. Although in the past truck trailers drove there - and made a journey from Austria to Yugoslavia very long. The best is to go to Tarvisio (Italy) and through Rateče and Kranjska Gora.


----------



## Palance

I did that last route last May. But that was because I had to be in Kranjska Gora - then i't much cheapter ans quicklier to avoid the tunnel (of passes) and drive through Italy.


----------



## keber

Today there was 35 km long traffic jam before Tauern tunnel on A10 resulting in 6 hours waiting time.


----------



## Verso

I saw that mega-jam yesterday. I couldn't believe my eyes, it just wouldn't stop. Of course I went in the other direction. :tongue2:


----------



## Energy2003

*A9 Phyrnautobahn*

*August 2009* part 1/4

*coming from Salzburg -> Graz *

_all photos done and (C) by me !_




*getting to A9*





left A1 goes on in direction Vienna
via a big, easy-to-drive curve we *get on A9 @ Voralpenkreuz*


----------



## Energy2003

*Part 2/4*



who thinks Tyrol has a lot of tunnels should drive the A9


----------



## Energy2003

*Part 3/4*


----------



## Energy2003

*Part 4 / 4*




































this one is done from the restside area ... you see how boring the surrounding area is 













getting to the end of my journey













for further informations and geographical informations: 
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyhrn_Autobahn


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice 

I think the Phyrnautobahn is far less travelled than the Tauernautobahn, especially outside the summer season.


----------



## Verso

Beautiful motorway. It's P*yh*rnautobahn, btw.



ChrisZwolle said:


> I think the Phyrnautobahn is far less travelled than the Tauernautobahn, especially outside the summer season.


I think just the opposite; A10 doesn't connect big cities, while in the summer you always hear of terrible traffic jams on A10, but not on A9.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ That's what I'm saying


----------



## Timon91

There seem to be quite many 2-laned tunnels on the A9. On the A10 there is only one left.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't think the summer traffic jams will be completely gone once there is a second tube on A10 Tauern. Even with 2x2 lanes, most of the A10 will flow near saturation point during summer saturdays. Since the big tunnel fires in the 90's, they are scared of tunnel congestion, so I think they will control the flow at the tunnels anyway by blockabfertigung. Congestion will be far less ofcourse, due to the fact that the capacity is twice as high. 

Although they don't seem to do that for, say, the Seelisbergtunnel (9.7 km, 2x2 lanes) in Switzerland.


----------



## Timon91

Yeah, still the tollbooth will slow down traffic and the lower speed limit in the tunnels also slow down traffic.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ That's what I'm saying


I think the Pyhrnautobahn is more travelled outside summer than the Tauernautobahn (or at least not far less), but in the summer, A10 is much busier. You said the difference was bigger outside summer.


----------



## Energy2003

The A10 is THE route for Germany <> Slovenia & Italy (so say the online route planers and the gps systems)

The A9 has not really a special need. But of course it connects the 2nd (GRaz) and 3rd biggest (Linz) City of Austria 

So it´s interesting to see the different traffic volumes


I will post special route from Slovenian boarder (Jesenice) to Tyrol soon .. then you see there´s no real need for using A10


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You can find some traffic counts of A9 here. Mostly between 8.000 and 15.000 with some spikes to 20.000 and 34.000 AADT


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> You can find some traffic counts of A9 here. Mostly between 8.000 and 15.000 with some spikes to 20.000 and 34.000 AADT


8,000 is minimum. Average of those numbers is even higher than 15,000, almost 18,000.



Energy2003 said:


> The A10 is THE route for Germany <> Slovenia


I'm not sure. If you mean literally Slovenia, then of course it's true, because most people live in the western part of the country, but if you add Croatia (except western Croatia), Bosnia and so on, I've heard most people use A9 even to get to Salzburg or Munich, because it's cheaper than A10. With completion of Slovenian A4 and Maribor bypass even more Croats and Bosnians will use it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> 8,000 is minimum. Average of those numbers is even higher than 15,000, almost 18,000.


keep in mind that the average doesn't say much... it could be around 10.000 for 90% of it's route and 100.000 for the remaining 10%, but that doesn't make the road busy for the most part. 

Even 34,000 is not much for a motorway around a big city.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> keep in mind that the average doesn't say much... it could be around 10.000 for 90% of it's route and 100.000 for the remaining 10%, but that doesn't make the road busy for the most part.


I know, but the median seems to be ~15,000. What you wrote looks more like minimum to me.


----------



## Energy2003

Verso said:


> I've heard most people use A9 even to get to Salzburg or Munich, because it's cheaper than A10. With completion of Slovenian A4 and Maribor bypass even more Croats and Bosnians will use it.



You have to pay toll 2times ... 

as i remember once 8€ and once 5€


so ... A10 wouldn´t be more expensive, or ?!


btw: when it comes to hours of traffic jams or something like this, i would not look for a few Euros more or less, i would keep my eyes open for free roads !


----------



## Timon91

The A9 is cheaper, but there isn't much difference. If you use the A11 and the A10 to get from Slovenia to Salzburg you have to pay toll twice, €9,50 for the Tauern- and Katschbergtunnel, and €6,50 for the Karawankentunnel. €16 or €13, the difference is one large beer :lol:


----------



## Energy2003

at the time i drove the route (last saturday)

we had absolutly no high traffic on the A9, even not near Graz.
At the toll stations there where maximum 5 cars per lane

As the radio speaker said at the same time on A10 there would have been 16km traffic jam (Blockabfertigung)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Energy2003 said:


> we had absolutly no high traffic on the A9, even not near Graz.
> At the toll stations there where maximum 5 cars per lane
> 
> As the radio speaker said at the same time on A10 there would have been 16km traffic jam (Blockabfertigung)


That's because people just follow the standard route, or their GPS. Only a few take some time to check if there are reasonable alternatives.

Heading towards Slovenia or Croatia, the Felbertauern could be a good alternative for waiting 3 - 6 hours in the traffic jam. Or even the A9 towards Graz.


----------



## Timon91

The A10 on a quiet day is no big deal. I passed it twice this summer, on a friday morning and on a tuesday afternoon. No congestion at all!


----------



## Energy2003

ChrisZwolle said:


> That's because people just follow the standard route, or their GPS. Only a few take some time to check if there are reasonable alternatives.



thats what i said in post #817



the Felbertauern has one advantage more:
you save the half route of "kleines deutsches eck" from salzburg to munich


----------



## keber

^^But it has disadvantage, that toward north road is not good (in terms of speed).


----------



## Energy2003

^^ for me it was no problem cause i had to drive to Vorarlberg, which saves time and the complete german track.

for people driving to Germany it´s not that good solution.


The average speed was ok, the landscape is nice ... but it needs a bit of time 


but wait till i post the photos


----------



## keber

Energy2003 said:


> but wait till i post the photos


No problem for me, I'm almost every year on that road (because of mountains - Hoche Tauern)
I'm rather waiting for road to Lienz becoming faster. I hope two bypasses, which are missing will be built soon. And Lienz bypass probably being only a longterm wish.


----------



## Timon91

A2 I/AT border - Knoten Villach

The A2 brings you from the Italian A23 to the Tauernautobahn (A10), in 25 km. The A2 itself continues to Vienna.

1. Just after the border.










2. Some roadworks.










3. 










4. Apparently there was nothing going on :lol:










5. Beautiful mountain ahead. From the tripoint (Mt. Peč) you have an excellent view on this mountain (and antenna )










6. 










7. Rusty shoulder, oh my :lol:










8. Getting closer to Villach.










9. Knoten Villach ahead.










10. We're leaving the A2 here. Sorry for the unsharp photo hno:










That's it again!


----------



## H123Laci

Timon91 said:


> 5. Beautiful mountain ahead. From the tripoint (Mt. Peč) you have an excellent view on this mountain (and antenna )


this is the dobratsch... (accesible on the villacher panorama road)

we were there last week...

and we've visited the Dreilanderek (border of three countries) too:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sou...1221,13.708534&spn=0.157689,0.307274&t=p&z=12


----------



## Verso

Timon91 said:


> (Mt. Peč)


Gipfel des Ofen.  Nice pics; I hate that 100-km/h speed limit on the whole Villach bypass, the city isn't big at all, and you can hardly see it from the bypass anyway.


----------



## keber

The same is valid for other nonsense 100 km/h speed limits on A10 (between both long tunnels and before Salzburg)


----------



## Verso

^ They are all over Austria (at least on mountainous sections and by cities), but I've noticed even Austrians don't follow them.


----------



## keber

Depends. Austrians follow those limits, foreigners don't. In my experience I never saw car with Austrian licence plate to go more than 10 km over the limit. I always turn on cruise control on those sections, because they are mostly straight and therefore boring as hell (especially before Salzburg) and you can easily go over the limit. 

I heard that going over those limits is sanctioned quite differently (read: much higher fines) than it is usual because of some environment legislation.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Yeah, I heard they fine those as an environmental offense.

Utter moronism of course hno:


----------



## Verso

When I went from Graz to Villach not long ago, Austrians didn't follow the 100-km/h speed limit, but were easily doing 120-130 km/h, only a few foreigners followed the limit. When I went to Germany, a lot of foreigners with personal cars (no trailer or anything) were driving 90 km/h, so we were overtaking them by bus all the time. :doh:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> When I went to Germany, a lot of foreigners with personal cars (no trailer or anything) were driving 90 km/h, so we were overtaking them by bus all the time. :doh:


I never understood those people. I mean, I know not everybody feels comfortable driving German-style with 120 - 180 - 120 all the time, but at least cruise like 120 - 130 km/h. 

I saw some trucks overtaking cars on the motorway recently too... I can completely understand those truckers, but such cars should be fined imo. The problem is this kind of stuff is not really enforcable.


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Yeah, I heard they fine those as an environmental offense.
> 
> Utter moronism of course hno:


I heard, that fines for even small speed offense can go over 500 €. That's why I'm always careful on Tauern Autobahn, because signage which tells you, what is normal speed limit and what environmental speed limit is, is insufficient and hardly legible.

Also did you know, that in the night speed limit on A10 is only 110 km/h. That tell you only some scarce billboards with pretty small letters.


----------



## LtBk

Is there a lot of enforcement on the A10?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I thought there was some 160 km/h limit on the A10 somewhere...


----------



## keber

Never seen one (except vignette controls). But people (locals and most foreigners) are respecting speed limits, something you wont find on Vienna motorway network.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> I thought there was some 160 km/h limit on the A10 somewhere...


That was just for a short time and ended a few years ago. At night the speed limit for trucks on A10 is just 60 km/h, btw!! That's what I call really dangerous!


----------



## keber

Verso said:


> That's what I call really dangerous!


Why? It is still the same difference in speed limits to personal cars as in the day.


----------



## Verso

Yeah, but not everyone drives 130 km/h. Just the thought of someone driving 60 km/h on a motorway gives me the shivers.


----------



## keber

^^ No, at night only 110 km/h is allowed. And I think vast majority of drivers don't speed on A10 at least when I'm driving there.

(I'll post a photo of this sign, posted every 50 km or so, when I'll get to other computer - funny I have it already a year and a quarter)


----------



## Verso

keber said:


> ^^ No, at night only 110 km/h is allowed.


I know, I said not everyone drives 130 km/h by day, so it's usually a smaller difference.


----------



## keber

I don't se that as a danger. On normal roads in Austria 100 km/h is allowed, so being on a wide and straight motorway (which is virtually empty in the night) it is not very hard to see a lightened truck going 60 km/h and therefore even safer.

There are countless motorway ascents, where truck with trailers can go only 40 km/h, and cars are easily going 130 or more (Germany) and yet I don't see much danger here.


----------



## Energy2003

The 160 km/h Test was in 2006; 130km/h at night 


I´ve to keep my eyes more open, but truck limit @ 40 or 60 km/h?

i know it exists but i´ve never seen it here 

... btw: Driving 60km/h is surely no problem for the driver (-> Tempomat) and also not for other users driving at regular speed


----------



## ChrisZwolle

110 at night is REALLY a falling-asleep-speedlimit. hno: They have never heard of drivers fatigue?


----------



## Energy2003

^^ it´s good for the police to see the young drivers on their way do disco <> home because - when drunken - they don´t keep the 110 - even not the 130, so it´s easy to select those people.

It´s dark - you don´t see them, but they see you 
(specialy when in civil)


btw: 110 is from 22 - 05 o´clock


----------



## Mateusz

I remember Tauern Autobahn back in 2001, does it still lacks hard shoulder ?


----------



## Verso

A10 has hard shoulders (and always had them), A11 doesn't (which I don't mind at all).


----------



## Timon91

A10 Villach-Salzburg, Tauernautobahn

The last set of pictures already. Only the border will follow, and that's it!

Anyway, we passed here on a quiet tuesday, so no jams at all at the tunnels. When we entered the Tauerntunnel our direction was completely empty!

1.










2. Speed limit 100 km/h for a tunnel.










3. Salzburg 170 km.










4. These rusty shoulders again 










5. Great!










6. Knoten Spittal-Millstätter See ahead.










7. For Lienz and Lendorf turn left...










8. ...and exit here 










9. Ugly concrete and concrete middle barrier.










10. Noise barriers in the middle of the motorway :nuts:










11. 










12. Nothing but a caravan 










13. The valley is narrowing down.










14. Some curve and a lorry. There weren't many of them on this motorway (tunnel restrictions).










15. Empty.










16. Wartezeit......heute nicht 










17. Ski area Rennweg am Katschberg.










18. Entering Katschbergtunnel.










19. Exit St. Michael, AFAIK the only exit between the Katschberg and Tauerntunnel.










20. Empty :banana:










21. Just a caravan 










22. Dirty windshield hno:










That's it for part one! Part two is coming up


----------



## Timon91

Part 2

23. At least a small part of this motorway is good 










24. 2×3 uphill.










25. No stau today 










26. 










27. Just before entering the Tauerntunnel.










28. The road narrows down to 2×1.










29. Entering the Tauerntunnel. This is also the highest point in the Tauernautobahn (1340m).










30. After the tunnel; 4% downhill.










31. 










32. Quite large roadworks near Flachauwinkel.










33. All traffic moved to one side.










34. After the roadworks.










35. 










36. Beautiful mountain.










37. Entering a small tunnel.










38. Going downhill.










39. 










40. Still going down.










41. A little bit more traffic.










42. Roadworks again. There was some congestion here (20 mins, not much).










43. Still 2 lanes each direction available.










44. Knoten Salzburg ahead.










45. End of the A10. We're following München here.










That's it. Hope you liked it


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice. I thought the Tauern Autobahn was more spectacular in terms of scenery though.


----------



## keber

Actually it also is, but you can't show it through a dirty windscreen.:lol:


----------



## Verso

Nice pix! You stalked a Slovenian truck. :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> Nice pix! You stalked a Slovenian truck. :lol:


That's a Prius eh, they won't go faster than trucks


----------



## keber

Here's that sign, posted every 50 kms or so, but not on entrances to A10.


----------



## Timon91

ChrisZwolle said:


> That's a Prius eh, they won't go faster than trucks


LOL no we had quite a long lunchstop near Golling


----------



## snowman159

Energy2003 said:


> i drove from Graz to Klagenfurt too last week and it´s not that bad.
> 
> it looks like a dangerours place to do construction work on the highway, cause there are a LOT of curves


You're right. It's nothing compared to what it used to be a few years ago. 
Extremely narrow lanes without shoulders, because only half of the freeway has been built which had to serve both directions. At some points there wasn't any kind of divider between opposing traffic. Accidents were very common on that stretch, afaik. And let's not forget the 2-lane tunnels that caused huge backups in the summer.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Is that why there is a left shoulder on A2? Which is closed with barriers.


----------



## snowman159

ChrisZwolle said:


> Is that why there is a left shoulder on A2? Which is closed with barriers.


I guess so, if it was on the uphill part after the nice 2x3 section. The southbound (uphill) side was used for both directions back then.


----------



## Energy2003

snowman159 said:


> You're right. It's nothing compared to what it used to be a few years ago.
> Extremely narrow lanes without shoulders, because only half of the freeway has been built which had to serve both directions. At some points there wasn't any kind of divider between opposing traffic. Accidents were very common on that stretch, afaik. And let's not forget the 2-lane tunnels that caused huge backups in the summer.



I drove from Liechtenstein to Hungarian Boarder and back to Klagenfurt at the same day .... driving this highway @ Pack needs full concentration.

I realized when i drove that specially this road is not good when you´re tired.


I think for people who come back from holidays in the south to (example) Vienna and they have young children in the car and are may tired there surely can happen dangerous situations


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah a lot of A2 is limited to 100 km/h in that area, lots of tunnels, and lots of tight curves. Actually, I think A2 goes higher than A9 and A10! I saw a sign with 958 m somewhere. I think at the border of Steiermark and Kärnthen.


----------



## Timon91

Nah, the A10 goes to 1340 m, I don't think that the A2 reaches that.


----------



## x-type

i was in Bruck an der Mur, i took some photos when i was going back.

S35 beginning in Bruck, just after knot with S6









it ends soon and becomes road 315









upgrade is u/c (i didn't know it). it will be very nice, 2 long tunnels are being built. this is green pass, construction site is just beside road 315









this is kinda bridge, but it doesn't cross the river Mur, but it goes along and over it (simply, the valley is so narrow)









one of those tunnels u/c


















again one section of 2way expressway









the second tunnel u/c



























and entering an existing expressway (with motorway standards)


















tunnel Mixnitz (680 m), exisdts only in derction Graz, not in opposite direction









130 km/h at so called expressway  there are also some 100 km/h sections and everyone keeps it because police is quite active there



























approaching knot Deutschffeistritz (S35-A9)









going under A9


----------



## x-type

A9


















northern Gratkorn tunnel









old black A plates 


















southern Gratkorn tunnel


















approaching Plabutsch tunnel, second longest double-tube tunnel in Europe









entrance









tunnel was quite crowded and after tunnel you have to merge with motorway from Graz centre direction. everybody is taking right lanes and it is not easy to merge
approaching intersection A9-A2



























A9 direction Spielfeld









some works near Wildon, they are reconstructing a dike


















the only service area between Graz and Spielfeld, Gralla









the last exit befopre border. sun was in bad angle









don't forget vignette in SLO!


















juest before the border









border crossing in appropriate thread


----------



## Verso

^^ Great pics; is that Sentilj on the last pic?  And Zlatten, quite a weird name.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> And Zlatten, quite a weird name.


Depends on what you're used to. I also find Celovec and Beljak weird names! :lol:


----------



## x-type

Verso said:


> ^^ Great pics; is that Sentilj on the last pic?  And Zlatten, quite a weird name.


yes, it's written Sentilj. that's why i took that one


----------



## Verso

^^ It reminds me of Skofije (instead of Škofije).



ChrisZwolle said:


> Depends on what you're used to. I also find Celovec and Beljak weird names! :lol:


'Beljak' means glair anyway. :lol: If it was pronounced [zlatten], it would be ok, but [tslatten] is quite weird IMO.


----------



## Palance

I always thought that Beljak had to do something with 'white' (Bjelo/Belo).

Nice pictures. I have been on the A9 when Yugoslavia still existed (and i think that therefore Slowenien is put on the signs where Jugoslawien could be found in those days. the A9 was not extended to the border by then.

Why should they put "Marburg" on it anyway?


----------



## Verso

Palance said:


> I always thought that Beljak had to do something with 'white' (Bjelo/Belo).


Isn't glair white (bel)? (when whisked, that is) "Marburg (an der Drau)" is German for Maribor.


----------



## Palance

I know that Marburg is German for Maribor, but why put it on the signs? On the A10/A11 there is no Laibach (but there is/was at the Felbertauerntunnel).


----------



## pijanec

x-type said:


> some works near Wildon, they are reconstructing a dike


They are building a high speed rail link under a motorway.


----------



## pijanec

Originally there was no "Marburg" at those signs. But when Austrian nationalists found out that there are a lot of signs in Slovenia that contains only Slovenian names for Austrian cities they added Marburg.


----------



## Palance

Aren't all Slovenian signs for Austrian namens bilangual? (except maybe the Salzburg-sign at the Karawankentunnel)


----------



## H123Laci

x-type said:


> i was in Bruck an der Mur, i took some photos when i was going back.


I made that route in the opposite direction...

very nice route and a fine alternative to the A2 between graz and wien...


----------



## x-type

H123Laci said:


> I made that route in the opposite direction...
> 
> very nice route and a fine alternative to the A2 between graz and wien...


it is also for direction Voralpenkreuz. it is 30 km more, but you save the toll for Gleinalm tunnel


----------



## snowman159

Here a new freeway will branch off towards St. Polten and the A1. 
Along with a new Danube River crossing, a big new interchange is under construction, as well as the widening of the existing S5.


8.









9.









10.









11.










View towards the new bridge, which will be completed in the couple of years
12.










13.










Between here and Krems the S5 narrows down to a single lane highway, but widening to freeway standards is planned sometime in the future.
14.









15.










In Krems the S5 is once again 2x2 until it hits traffic lights and changes its name to B3
16.









17.


----------



## snowman159

*B3 (Federal Highway 3) Westbound*


The relatively short 2x2 section in Krems:
1.









2.









3.









4.










In the town of Stein, just west of Krems
5.









6.










Entering famous Wachau Valley (UNESCO World Heritage)
7.









8.









9.










And I leave you with this shot of the Danube River










I hope you enjoyed the little trip!


----------



## Radish2

keber said:


> Wondering why does Austria (at least in Kärnten) have such precise signage for distances for limit/obey/warning signs. Like:
> 
> speed limit 100 km/h for 1120 m (on motorway)
> speed limit 60 km/h for 4,16 km
> warning, traffic light after 275 m
> no overtaking for next 842 m
> etc. etc.
> 
> It doesn't make any sense to me, it is written on old or new signs.


Hah, really funny.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice report. I haven't driven the A1 one yet, they say it's a boring drive.


----------



## Verso

Beautiful, I didn't know there was a valley protected by UNESCO there. I was looking at those signs in Vienna a little... What did they show in the Cold War? Were Budapest, Bratislava, Brno and Prague even shown on signs?


----------



## Timon91

Great report! I did Salzburg-Vienna by train in februari 2008, and that's really BORING


----------



## treichard

A few of the motorways have spurs that are themselves short motorways, such as the A22 spur in Wien, A2 spur in Graz, A2 spur in Klagenfurt, and a few more. Are they given the same number as the parent motorway (e.g. an A2 spur is also called A2), a different number, something else, or nothing at all? How are the designations signed?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The A2 in Klagenfurt is just signed as an exit with no road number:










This is on the A2 spur:


----------



## snowman159

treichard said:


> A few of the motorways have spurs that are themselves short motorways, such as the A22 spur in Wien, A2 spur in Graz, A2 spur in Klagenfurt, and a few more. Are they given the same number as the parent motorway (e.g. an A2 spur is also called A2), a different number, something else, or nothing at all? How are the designations signed?


As far as I know, they are assigned the same number.

The following picture of Nordbruecke, which is a spur of the A22, is a good example.
The exit on the right takes you to the mainline A22, while the spur, also signed as A22, continues into Floridsdorf towards B7:










I think the same is true in the other cases you mentioned.


----------



## snowman159

ChrisZwolle said:


> The A2 in Klagenfurt is just signed as an exit with no road number:


Interesting. But I think on these kinds of older signs the A number is generally not indicated. I'm pretty sure it is signed as A2 on the gantries at the beginning in Klagenfurt and around Minimundus at the Woerthersee on-ramp.


----------



## Mateusz

How's progress with S1 and A5, any pics ?


----------



## Timon91

AFAIK the short branch off the A10 near Spittal an der Drau is signed as A10.


----------



## Snowguy716

I've been to the ruins in photo 8 in the Wachau. Absolutely beautiful! 

We stayed overnight at the monastery in Melk and just enjoyed the town before moving onto Vienna. This was when I was studying in Salzburg for a year.


----------



## snowman159

Snowguy716 said:


> I've been to the ruins in photo 8 in the Wachau. Absolutely beautiful!
> 
> We stayed overnight at the monastery in Melk and just enjoyed the town before moving onto Vienna. This was when I was studying in Salzburg for a year.


Glad you enjoyed it. I really love that region.

Here are some photos of Durnstein I took earlier this year:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=31477178&postcount=9


----------



## Verso

Tomorrow they open parts of S2 (the last part) and S1 to Eibesbrunn (future junction with A5). They already symbolically opened them today. A few pics from Wikipedia:


----------



## Timon91

Typical Austrian habit: 4 different ovals on one sign. Just like on Knoten Salzburg


----------



## Verso

^ And the closest one (SK) is missing. :lol:


----------



## Timon91

Ah, yes  I wonder why they don't sign Liechtenstein here


----------



## Verso

I'm surprised they don't sign Zürich anywhere in Austria, just St. Gallen.


----------



## keber

Verso said:


> ^ And the closest one (SK) is missing. :lol:


Are you sure? :naughty:



Verso said:


>


----------



## Verso

keber said:


> Are you sure? :naughty:


Are you sure I meant that sign? :naughty:


----------



## keber

If you meant the other one, maybe Slovakia is not in the direction of that sign. :naughty:

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=48.264175,16.475862&z=13&t=h&hl=en


----------



## Verso

Dear keber. I meant _this_ sign:


Verso said:


>


----------



## keber

So? See posted link and check, where Slovakia could be located and where this sign.


----------



## Verso

I don't think there's any bridge over March (Morava) on the Austrian-Slovak border; I think the northernmost road between the countries is the old road between Vienna and Bratislava (B9×61), so Slovakia is in direction of Budapest. I think even Bratislava could be on the sign, not just SK.


----------



## keber

There is 20-25 km less distance (about 30%), if you take previous exit and go to Bratislava over bundesroads and Hainburg (according to Google maps).


----------



## Verso

If you mean B3, it's not previous exit, that exit is yet to come (after Hermann-Gebauer-Straße). Although, there doesn't seem to be an exit for it; perhaps it was sooner, but that means driving on city streets of Vienna to get to B3, which doesn't sound like a good idea. But if you mean B8 and B49, that doesn't sound like a good idea to me at all. Also, signs always keep you on motorways and expressways as much as they can, and even if the exit was already sooner, you still have to sign Slovakia over S2-A23-A4-A6.


----------



## Verso

Verso said:


> Although, there doesn't seem to be an exit for it


I found exit for B3 - it's Hirschstetten, and it's definitely after this sign (after exit for Hermann-Gebauer-Straße; also after exit for Rautenweg, which is also on the sign).


----------



## keber

Compare this
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sou...1123,16.809769&spn=0.353522,0.891953&t=h&z=11

to this
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sou...809769&sspn=0.35289,0.891953&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=11

and this
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sou...809769&sspn=0.35289,0.891953&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=11

Also future S2/S1 interchange will be built before above exit and traffic to SK here is almost certainly very minor.


----------



## Ban.BL

I have just noticed that between Austria and Slovakia in 90km borders,there are only three crossing and all in Bratislava, North from Bratislava you can only swim if you want to get to Slovakia.


----------



## Timon91

There are probably ferries. I'm looking at the border right now, from Bratislava up north. In Angern an der March is a ferry to Slovakia.


----------



## Verso

I'd choose motorways. If your average speed there is 125 km/h, you have to drive on average at least 100 km/h on ordinary roads, which is impossible (84.9 km ÷ 68.3 km = 1.24; 125 km/h ÷ 1.24 = 100.6 km/h).


----------



## Bobek_Azbest

Yes, one ferry in Angern and one more road crossing between Moravský Svätý Ján and Hohenau (although only for vehicles under 3.5 tonnes).


----------



## Qwert

Ban.BL said:


> I have just noticed that between Austria and Slovakia in 90km borders,there are only three crossing and all in Bratislava, North from Bratislava you can only swim if you want to get to Slovakia.


North of Bratislava there's a ferry between Záhorská Ves and Angern: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=...915730b:0x1d00f7d2cfb83d70,48.382193,16.83408 and little narrow bridge between Moravský Svätý Ján and Hohenau an der March: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=h...48.601956,16.934309&spn=0.010245,0.01929&z=16.

There's planned expressway between Vienna and Slovak border north of Danube. I hope it won't take 20 years to built it as it was in case of A6:nuts:.


----------



## snowman159

If you're approaching Vienna from the North, as in that picture, the fastet route to Bratislava would be via the ferry in Angern. Even if you went south to Hainburg (B9), which I wouldn't do unless the crossing at Angern is closed because of high water levels (which happens), it would still be faster than the A23-A4-A6 combo - under normal conditions, of course. 
So it makes sense that SK or Bratislava is missing from that sign. 
But the signs look like sh... anyway.


----------



## keber

Verso said:


> I'd choose motorways. If your average speed there is 125 km/h, you have to drive on average at least 100 km/h on ordinary roads, which is impossible (84.9 km ÷ 68.3 km = 1.24; 125 km/h ÷ 1.24 = 100.6 km/h).


Through Wien average 125? Maybe at 3 in the morning. :lol:


----------



## Verso

^ Average on S2+A23+A4+A6+D4+D2. Well, we still have Trieste signed on A1, even if you miss A3.  Ok, it doesn't matter.


----------



## Ban.BL

keber said:


> Through Wien average 125? Maybe at 3 in the morning. :lol:


not even than, speed limit 80


----------



## Ban.BL

Timon91 said:


> There are probably ferries. I'm looking at the border right now, from Bratislava up north. In Angern an der March is a ferry to Slovakia.


Here is ferry 




























And the bridge


----------



## Timon91

Thanks 

That bridge looks much better now, I found this picture on Google Earth:










source - made by borderbase from Panoramio.com


----------



## Qwert

snowman159 said:


> If you're approaching Vienna from the North, as in that picture, the fastet route to Bratislava would be via the ferry in Angern. Even if you went south to Hainburg (B9), which I wouldn't do unless the crossing at Angern is closed because of high water levels (which happens), it would still be faster than the A23-A4-A6 combo - under normal conditions, of course.
> So it makes sense that SK or Bratislava is missing from that sign.
> But the signs look like sh... anyway.


I hope you are just kidding. Not a single serious road authority could navigate to ferry in Angern. That's good for local traffic between villages close to the border, not as a connection between Bratislava and Vienna. That ferry is out of order almost everytime when it rains not to mention it's useless for freight traffic. Real connection of Slovakia and Austria (Bratislava and Vienna) are only B9 - I/61 and A6 - D4 both in Bratislava south of Danube and all signs should navigate you there. It could be changed when new connection: S8 - D4 north of Danube will be finished.

This is the best way how to get from S2 to Bratislava and this is what should be signed: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sou...48.164253,16.793976&spn=0.66134,1.234589&z=10


----------



## snowman159

Qwert said:


> I hope you are just kidding. Not a single serious road authority could navigate to ferry in Angern. That's good for local traffic between villages close to the border, not as a connection between Bratislava and Vienna. That ferry is out of order almost everytime when it rains not to mention it's useless for freight traffic. Real connection of Slovakia and Austria (Bratislava and Vienna) are only B9 - I/61 and A6 - D4 both in Bratislava south of Danube and all signs should navigate you there. It could be changed when new connection: S8 - D4 north of Danube will be finished.
> 
> This is the best way how to get from S2 to Bratislava and this is what should be signed: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sou...48.164253,16.793976&spn=0.66134,1.234589&z=10


I wasn't talking about truck traffic. And all I was saying is that if you're already east of Vienna, you're not that far from the border. I wouldn't drive the other way towards Vienna and one of the most congested roads in Austria and make a huge detour at that, but that's just me. Timewise, it'll probably be pretty much the same either way - except during rush hour in Vienna, when taking the backroads to the border may really save you some time.

You're probably right about the signage, though. Wouldn't be such a good idea to guide all the traffic through small towns, now that there's a freeway connection. I don't agree that it's necessarily the best way.


----------



## Verso

So I was right!  Besides, as I said, even if you miss the "right" exit (or "miss" it intentionally), you still have a possibility to go to Bratislava on motorways, and signs for Bratislava should only stop after the Vösendorf junction (A2×S1×A21), where it's the last possibility to turn to Bratislava. As I said, we also still sign Trieste on A1, even if you miss the exit for A3. 

Anyway, the new expressway sections are already open! :cheers:


----------



## snowman159

^^

They should just put "Alle Richtungen" on that sign, the way they do in France.  

Btw, are you sure SK isn't signed via S2-A23-A4, anyway? Maybe it's just missing from that particular sign, because they ran out of space? There's an SK oval on another sign you posted.


----------



## Verso

^ That other sign seems to be on the future A5×S1 junction (where the S1 currently ends since today), but probably there's SK on the A23×A22 junction. It was just funny to see Italy, but not Slovakia.


----------



## Timoth12

SK signs you can find frequently in the Vienna center, by the way. 

There will be at least three road/expressway bridges over Morava river AT-SK border. Existing one Moravský Svaty Jan/Hohenau, even existing ferry at Záhorská Ves-Angern will be replaced with a bridge, hopefully in the near future. Pedestrian and cyclists bridge Devínska Nová Ves/Marchegg is approved as well and already mentioned expressway bridge, probably copying the railway bridge, this is a matter of probably 8-9 years. 
More bridges will be probably not constructed in the next 10 years, although Vysoká pri Morave and Gajary are further options.


----------



## Ban.BL

Timoth12 said:


> SK signs you can find frequently in the Vienna center, by the way.
> 
> There *will be* at least three road/expressway bridges over Morava river AT-SK border. Existing one Moravský Svaty Jan/Hohenau, even existing ferry at Záhorská Ves-Angern will be replaced with a bridge, hopefully in the near future. Pedestrian and cyclists bridge Devínska Nová Ves/Marchegg is approved as well and already mentioned expressway bridge, probably copying the railway bridge, this is a matter of probably 8-9 years.
> More bridges will be probably not constructed in the next 10 years, although Vysoká pri Morave and Gajary are further options.


I hate future tense. 
We will wait and see, knowing Austrians you would have zillion information about that if there were any plans in next 5 years, that´s why i am sceptic and i think it is just wishful thinking.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

What is the status of the expressways north and east of Wien?

S1: Schwechat - Korneuburg
S3: Hollabrunn - Guntersdorf
S8: Deutsch-Wagram - Slovakian border


----------



## x-type

i allways thought that Morava was larger river


----------



## keber

x-type said:


> i allways thought that Morava was larger river


It is. Those pictures are surely not from SK-A border.


----------



## Verso

LOL, of course they are.


----------



## Mateusz

Any pics from newly opened S1 ?


----------



## Qwert

ChrisZwolle said:


> What is the status of the expressways north and east of Wien?
> 
> S1: Schwechat - Korneuburg
> S3: Hollabrunn - Guntersdorf
> S8: Deutsch-Wagram - Slovakian border


I would like to know that too. Some map showing built and U/C sections in Vienna area would be great as well.



x-type said:


> i allways thought that Morava was larger river


Morava is strongly dependant on current weather conditions. Sometimes it could be tiny calm river and in few days big floods may appear. Check e.g. this enormous flooded area at Google Maps: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=...83136,16.93182&spn=0.041238,0.077162&t=h&z=14 or this picture.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Morava is a typical river fed by rainfall, just like the Meuse in the Netherlands, or the Ems in Germany. Larger rivers like the Rhine, Danube, Sava or Rhône are fed by melting snow/glaciers in the Alps. Other rivers, like the Volga or Elbe have a significant drainage area, so they're not dependent on rainfall or melting snow, but the Morava is a smaller river.


----------



## Jaro25

ChrisZwolle said:


> What is the status of the expressways north and east of Wien?
> 
> S1: Schwechat - Korneuburg
> S3: Hollabrunn - Guntersdorf
> S8: Deutsch-Wagram - Slovakian border


S1: Schwechat - Sussenbrunn should be open in 2018
S1: Sussenbrunn - Eibesbrunn open today 
S1: Eibesbrunn - Korneuburg will be open in February 2010

S3: Hollabrunn - Guntersdorf, start of construction 2012, should be ready in 2014

S8: construction start in 2011, ready in 2018


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Jaro25 said:


> S1: Sussenbrunn - Eibesbrunn open today


http://www.ots.at/presseaussendung/OTS_20091030_OTS0240

:cheers:


----------



## Jaro25

ChrisZwolle said:


> http://www.ots.at/presseaussendung/OTS_20091030_OTS0240
> 
> :cheers:


first pictures Sussenbrunn - Eibesbrunn

http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/read.php?3,129833


----------



## ChrisZwolle

From Autobahn-online.de:



> Und wieder einmal hat man alles drauf geschrieben, was Platz hatte. Wer soll das bitte alles in wenigen Sekunden erfassen? Die Einheimischen brauchen die Namensflut nicht und die Fremden sind überfordert. Zum Glück gibt es heute Navis.


A very valid point. I never understood the flooding of destinations and numbers on Austrian signs. The font used only makes this worse (in my opinion, Austria uses one of the worst fonts in Europe).


----------



## Qwert

ChrisZwolle said:


> From Autobahn-online.de:
> 
> 
> 
> A very valid point. I never understood the flooding of destinations and numbers on Austrian signs. The font used only makes this worse (in my opinion, Austria uses one of the worst fonts in Europe).


This indeed looks weird (not to mention it doesn't include SK oval):


----------



## Ban.BL

x-type said:


> i allways thought that Morava was larger river


you´ve mixed it with Morava in Serbia 



keber said:


> It is. Those pictures are surely not from SK-A border.


off course they are


----------



## rarse

Vallex said:


> From Liezen to A10 there is no planned motorway. Well from Exit Liezen at the A9 (P.S. I think that exit is the only left-handed exit on Austria) to a roundabout it is a 1+1 road but it is classified as "Schnellstrasse". I think the motorway should be build there since it carries European Road Number (E5..).


I was driving there for couple of times and I remember this short stretch of S road, but in my memory it is 2+2.?

Anyway this short stretch was built before good connection trough Alps was made with A9.




Vallex said:


> And one last thing, for the A16 (Connector A1,A13,and A14) do somebody know where it would be built?


So it has name A16? Any map?

I thought this would never be build since German A8 + A93 is a very good alternative (at least for north Austria) (+ there is no border).


----------



## Coccodrillo

x-type said:


> i had no idea about this! interesting!


The two halves are about 10 and 4 km in lenght. I don't know to what connects the second covered bridge.

There are other similar interrupted tunnels.

This one is for a railway in Italy: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...2744,13.153124&spn=0.002493,0.004801&t=k&z=18 (Pontebbana, parallel to the A23)

On the SS 38 here there are three tunnels connected by snowsheds: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sour...0961,10.355355&spn=0.002493,0.004801&t=h&z=18

They are built mainly to protect the road or railway from snow, but noise reduction is a nice side effect.


----------



## ABRob

x-type said:


> i had no idea about this! interesting!


There's anotherone on S16:
http://maps.google.de/maps?f=q&sour...47.136012,10.51022&spn=0.001328,0.005493&z=18


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> Tunnels without advanced plans to be twinned:
> 
> * A11 Karawanken Tunnel
> * S16 Arlberg Tunnel


By EU directive all longer one-tube road tunnels (I think over 1 km length) have to get means of escape by year 2019, should that be 
1 - another parallel traffic tunnel, 
2 - a parallel service tunnel or 
3 - escape shafts every 500 m or so.
For Arlberg tunnel they have chosen option number 3 and connected it with parallel railway tunnel. In first phase those escape shafts are spaced 1700 m, in final phase they will be 425 m spaced.

Karawanken tunnel will certainly get a new tube until 2019, but it is still not know (at least not in public), if they will choose option 1 or 2.


----------



## rarse

Why is there no motorway connection between Austria and Switzerland?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It was planned as S18 the _Bodensee Schnellstraße_, however EU commissions fought in court against the Austrian government because it was too close to a bird habitat. 

The Austrian government now seems to be preparing another route further south. It's really a shame there isn't one yet, planning of S18 started 25 years ago.


----------



## x-type

which of those border crossings between A and CH are used the most for heavy traffic (trucks)?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Hohenems I think. The route through Bregenz is prohibited for trucks.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*S1 + A5 opened*

The S1 Eibesbrunn - Korneuburg and A5 Eibesbrunn - Schrick opened to traffic, north of Wien (Vienna). 

S1 is 15 km long, A5 is about 23 km long


----------



## rarse

ChrisZwolle said:


> It was planned as S18 the Bodensee Schnellstraße, however EU commissions fought in court against the Austrian government because it was too close to a bird habitat.
> 
> The Austrian government now seems to be preparing another route further south. It's really a shame there isn't one yet, planning of S18 started 25 years ago.


Thank you for this info. Anyway it's a shame that such developed countries have no 2 km motorway connection on a flat terrain.

I suppose there is no crowd on the border since nothing happened till now?



ChrisZwolle said:


> *S1 + A5 opened*
> 
> The S1 Eibesbrunn - Korneuburg and A5 Eibesbrunn - Schrick opened to traffic, north of Wien (Vienna).
> 
> S1 is 15 km long, A5 is about 23 km long


Great.  Any photos? Vallex?


----------



## Vallex

True.
Summary about the newly opened S1 and A5:
About S1:
From Knoten Eibesbrunn until Knoten Korneuburg is 13,5 km long. There are 4 new exits; Korneuburg/Leobersdorf , Korneuburg Nord, Hagenbrunn/Enzersfeld, and B7. There are 3 tunnels along the Autobahn. The longest tunnel is Unterflurstrasse Stetten (3,2 km). The S1,A21,A22, and other Schnellstrassen are part of Regionenring Wien.
Together with the older part of the S1 (Knoten Suessenbrunn until Knoten Eibesbrunn), the total cost is about 690 Million Euro.
About A5:
From Knoten Eibesbrunn until Exit Schrick is 23,5 km long. There are 4 Exits and 3 Halbanschlussstelle. 2 in direction to Vienna and 1 in direction to Drasenhofen (Brno). The 4 exits are: Wolkersdorf Nord, Wolkersdorf Sued, Hochleichten and Schrick. The 3 Halbanschlussstellen are: Ulrichskirchen, Gaweintal Mitte and Gaweintal Nord. Experts said that the A5 will make the transport easier from the Weinviertel (Northern Lower Austria) to Vienna. Before the motorway was built, the B7 is overcrowded. The first part of A5 costs 255 Million Euro and it took 3 years to built. After the first part of A5 was opened, the second part started. The second part of the Autobahn strech from Schrick until Drasenhofen. Later in the Czech Republic, it will goes to R52. The second part is 34 km long. It will open for traffic on 2013. It costs 250 Million Euro to built. There are 4 Exits and 2 Halbanschlussstellen. The 4 exits are: Wittersdorf Nord and Sued, Walterskirchen and Poysbrunn. The 2 Halbanschlussstellen are: Drasenhofen West and Drasenhofen Nord. It will cross the Mistelbach Region. This Motorway Construction Project will be in the highest priority of the Lower Austria Infrastructure.


----------



## Vallex

Nope. Currently no photos from me,rarse  I would get some if my mom wants to drive there


----------



## ABRob

ChrisZwolle said:


> *S1 + A5 opened*
> 
> The S1 Eibesbrunn - Korneuburg and A5 Eibesbrunn - Schrick opened to traffic, north of Wien (Vienna).
> 
> S1 is 15 km long, A5 is about 23 km long


Photos:
http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/read.php?3,133715


----------



## Mateusz

>


I found very interesting but old map


----------



## x-type

shouldn't S36 reach Klagenfurt?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

S37. I think that map is VERY old, probably over 30 years. Notice it still features Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia.

S4 was planned that way in the early 1960's.


----------



## Vallex

That map was the planned Schnellstrassen and Autobahn in Austria... ca.35 years ago


----------



## keber

Interesting, even at that time no fast connection was planned to Lienz and further to Italy, which would substantially shorten trips from south to Tirol and Switzerland.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, or to upgrade the Felbertauern route.


----------



## Vallex

1 thing I don't get about S34:
Why it's so short.
Why the Asfinag can't extend it..like to Mariazell


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yes, or to upgrade the Felbertauern route.


Actually that one is very good and doesn't need upgrading for such a light traffic. Felbertauern tunnel lost its transit importance long time ago. A faster connection between Lienz and Italian A22 would be much more useful (from A10 Tauern Autobahn to Lienz road is slowly being modernized) and probably also cheaper. That route has even European designation E66, which means it is pretty important route.

PS. Felbertauern tunnel opened in 1967 and it is not shown on the above map, that means map is even older than 43 years.


----------



## thun

Probably the Alps Convention stands against that? :dunno: they don't want to create new transit corridors in the mountains.

But I agree that the Pustertal road (Italian part of the E66) would need to be upgrated, though I don't think a full motorway would make much sense.


----------



## keber

I agree, motorway is not needed. A Felbertauern-style road would be more than enough.


----------



## Uyncior

How much do you pay for 1 day of motorways driving?


----------



## keber

Depends. 10 day vignette costs about 8 euro. There are some additional stretches with payment per use (longer tunnels and Brenner).


----------



## GarbageCollector

Bahnsteig4 said:


> *S33 - Kremser Schnellstraße*


What is the meaning of the orange shields above tables (U67 and U12)?


----------



## Energy2003

U = Umleitung (english: bypass)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Umfahrung or Umleitung?


----------



## snowman159

It means Umleitung (detour), not Umfahrung - two different things.

If the motorway is closed between two exits, the yellow U signs will guide you to the next on-ramp. Also, when there's an accident ahead, radio traffic reports sometimes advise drivers to exit the motorway and follow e.g. U12. Works the same way as in Germany.


----------



## x-type

what is the purpose of contiuning on motorway for umleitung (in this case U67)? shouldn't umleitung happen when motorway is closed (and in the case of U67 it is obvious that motorway is not closed)


----------



## snowman159

x-type said:


> what is the purpose of contiuning on motorway for umleitung (in this case U67)? shouldn't umleitung happen when motorway is closed (and in the case of U67 it is obvious that motorway is not closed)


That's when the motorway is part of the detour. e.g. when the A1 is closed.
Remember, the sign is NOT on the A1, but on the southbound S33 just before it merges with the A1. 

Look at a map of St Poelten and everything will be clear.


----------



## x-type

a so!! that makes sense


----------



## keber

When looking at St. Pölten map I don't get it. If A1 is closed, then what do they help above Umleitungen? Any example maybe?


----------



## rarse

If I understand correctly:

When driving on S33 towards south (A1) and want to go to Vienna via A1, which is temporary closed (or in some sections) you should follow U67 to get to Vienna.

I guess this sign has a sense if not all A1 is closed (so you can reach the 'Knoten S33/A1') or if this sign is before exit St. Pölten Ost.

Otherwise it makes no sense as keber said.


----------



## snowman159

rarse said:


> I guess this sign has a sense if not all A1 is closed (so you can reach the 'Knoten S33/A1') or if this sign is before exit St. Pölten Ost.


If both directions were closed you woulnd't even get to see this sign.

In practice, you follow the U numbers the minute you're diverted off the motorway. If the next exit is also closed, you follow the next U sign, and so forth. It's designed so you don't have to worry about these things.


----------



## snowman159

rarse said:


> If I understand correctly:
> 
> When driving on S33 towards south (A1) and want to go to Vienna via A1, which is temporary closed (or in some sections) you should follow U67 to get to Vienna.
> .


No! In this example, when you follow either one of them (u67 or u12), the sign is the LAST sign before you're back on the motorway you deviated from. You've been following U67 or U12 signs the minute you left the A1 and in the picture above you're just about to get back on it.


----------



## x-type

U67 makes sense if A1 is closed for instance between exits St Pölten süd and Knoten St Pölten.
U12 makes sense if A1 is closed between exits Böheimkirchen and Knoten St Pölten


----------



## Vallex

Just an update - on Google Maps the S1 and A5 are visible.


----------



## snowman159

Out of curiosity, were there ever any plans for extending the A22 Nordbrücke spur all the way to the S1?


----------



## Vallex

No..don't think so.


----------



## snowman159

a few random pics from my recent backcountry skiing trip:


----------



## snowman159




----------



## hofburg

where is that?


----------



## snowman159

hofburg said:


> where is that?


Sorry, forgot to mention that little detail. :doh: 

It's in the Wölzer Tauern mountains near Sölkpass, between St Peter am Kammersberg, Schöder, and the T-intersection with B96.


----------



## hofburg

so between S37/36 and tauern autobahn. which one did you use to get there?


----------



## snowman159

hofburg said:


> so between S37/36 and tauern autobahn. which one did you use to get there?


S36


----------



## hofburg

do you have photos of S36/6 too?


----------



## snowman159

hofburg said:


> do you have photos of S36/6 too?


nope, sorry.


----------



## snowman159

a few urban road pics: Vienna's Gürtel ring road B221


----------



## hofburg

lot of traffic there.  that's also a ring? is A22 also a part of that one? vienna street view is stunning.


----------



## Fargo Wolf

snowman159 said:


> a few random pics from my recent backcountry skiing trip:


Holy crap!!! Pics 2-5 look a LOT like a few places near where I live. Getting back on topic... DO LIKE!!!! the pics.:bow:



snowman159 said:


>


Again, both pics remind me of areas around here. Still awesome though. :happy:


----------



## snowman159

hofburg said:


> lot of traffic there.  that's also a ring? is A22 also a part of that one? vienna street view is stunning.


here's a map:









B221 is an important and often congested thoroughfare, but it's not limited access and there are traffic lights - lots of them. And as you can see, it covers only the western half of Vienna.


----------



## rarse

Hello all. I found some nice videos driving around and in Vienna.

A23:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c5PfB0VGro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ0TI9UbSUk

S1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZuM5FI8tcM

City:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBD6OkZv8Rc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS86f1LwBio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3dOG-qPEqM


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Since nobody mentioned it...

On April 30th, 2010, the second tube of the Tauern Tunnel came into operation. The old tube is now being renovated and will open halfway through 2011. If that happens, all of the A10 will feature 2x2 lanes throughout.


----------



## rarse

ChrisZwolle said:


> Since nobody mentioned it...
> 
> On April 30th, 2010, the second tube of the Tauern Tunnel came into operation. The old tube is now being renovated and will open halfway through 2011. *If* that happens all of the A10 will feature 2x2 lanes throughout.


I guess you meant "when" not "if" :dunno:

Anyway thanks for the info


----------



## hofburg

great.  those tunnels were always so smelly and smoky and hot that without internal air condition and cooling you didn't survive.


----------



## augmentedreality

snowman159 said:


> a few random pics from my recent backcountry skiing trip:


Approaching a popular ski-touring area (Greim 2474 m) in Styria, pretty close to the border of Salzburg (Preber 2740 m). Both are popular among ski tourers and mountaineers as well and offers a perfect training ground for touring in almost all conditions. To ski is to enjoy being alive or staying alive.


----------



## rheintram

We don't need any new motorways in Austria and twinning single tube tunnels is a big big waste of money. Unfortunately it's a mafia consisting of local politicians, the construction industry and the truck freight lobby, that manage to get money into their pockets and make taxpayers spend more money on roads, which mostly benefit the interest of others.

That's why the quality of life along the Brennerautobahn went down the drain, with all the transit traffic from Germany to Italy. And that's why the Arlberg region will be ruined, once all the remaining pieces will be upgraded to Autobahn standard, because then it will be an ideal transit route too.

And thanks God the damn S18 was abolished and no alternative will ever be constructed. It would have cut right through a nature reservation. And now they can't find an alternative corridor, so S18 is dead.


----------



## rheintram

ChrisZwolle said:


> Hohenems I think. The route through Bregenz is prohibited for trucks.


Wrong. Lustenau - Au is used for trucks. All toll checks are done at the main cargo trainstation in Wolfurt. From there trucks drive via A14 and L204 to the border station in Lustenau.


----------



## atrida02

*S35 is finished*

On May 29 the last part of the S35 opened. It's now completely finished. The opened section includes 2 2-tube tunnels.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice. I guess it's now very attractive to avoid the € 7,50 toll at the Gleinalmtunnel!


----------



## snowman159

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nice. I guess it's now very attractive to avoid the € 7,50 toll at the Gleinalmtunnel!


True, but the A9 is still a much faster, more pleasant, and smoother ride. Once you're out of Gleinalm Tunnel, you can comfortably cruise at 130km/h all the way to Graz. 

The S35 and S36 has lots and lots of tunnels, very tight curves, and more traffic around Leoben. I'm sure it also has a lower design speed than the A9 - though many parts are posted at 130km/h, which makes driving there even more unpleasant because of all the idiots who think they have to drive the speed limit + 10-20km/h no matter what the road looks like.


----------



## rarse

Nice!

Thank you for the info.



I remember I was driving on S6 here. As you can see it's pretty curvy. If I remember correctly the speed limit was 130 km/h. Even on those curves.

I wonder why (only in Austria?) ''highways'' / ''schnellstrassen'' have 130 km/h speed limit, instead of 100 or 110 km/h as in most other countries I know.

Or at least only on curvey parts, that could be lower.


----------



## rarse

snowman159 said:


> True, but the A9 is still a much faster, more pleasant, and smoother ride. Once you're out of Gleinalm Tunnel, you can comfortably cruise at 130km/h all the way to Graz.


True but Gleinalm Tunnel is one of the most unsafest tunnels in Austria!



snowman159 said:


> The S35 and S36 has lots and lots of tunnels, very tight curves, and more traffic around Leoben. I'm sure it also has a lower design speed than the A9 - though many parts are posted at 130km/h, which makes driving there even more unpleasant because of all the idiots who think they have to drive the speed limit + 10-20km/h no matter what the road looks like.


I definitely agree with you. As I wrote in my previous post.


----------



## x-type

i drove S35 last summer and i must say that i drove many motorways with much tighter curves. this one has many curves, but not actually so tight that you must reduce your speed significantly.


----------



## rarse

rheintram said:


> And thanks God the damn S18 was abolished and no alternative will ever be constructed. It would have cut right through a nature reservation. And now they can't find an alternative corridor, so S18 is dead.


*So no 2+2 connection between A and CH ever?*


----------



## hofburg

rarse said:


> *So no 2+2 connection between A and CH ever?*


that's something I don't understand. there are two paralel motorways so close to each other.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

S18 would make most sense as far north as possible, so Zürich - München traffic can also profit from it. There is no reasonable high-standard alternative through southern Germany, A8 via Stuttgart is as close as it gets. Otherwise you're stuck to Bundesstraßen north of the Bodensee (Lake Constance).


----------



## snowman159

The new twin-tube Katscheberg Tunnel is a real delight, compared to what tunnels in Austria used to look like.

The lighting is brigther, the road surface is impeccable, and I really like the reflective lane markings.

I took the following pics this weekend:



























(the pics appear darker than in reality and sorry for the misfocus)


----------



## snowman159

*B99* Northbound, Katschberg Pass 


South of Katschberg, B99 offers great views of the A10 viaducts





























The last exit/on-ramp before Katschberg Tunnel



















This may not look very steep, but the sign says 15% and that's what it feels like.



















Arriving at the northern entrance of Katschberg Tunnel










Through a different valley B99 takes us towards Radstädter Tauern Pass


----------



## seem

*Autobahn A12 / Hall West - Europabrücke Parkplatz*

_one year old pics_


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Today is one of the peak holiday traffic days of Austria.

At the Tauern tunnel (A10), the traffic meters that control traffic flow into the tunnel were activated shortly before 4 am, and around 8 am, the queue was already 20 kilometers long, and over 3 hours of uphill waiting time. 

These kind of traffic jams are the biggest strain for your car, as you are not in a stationary traffic jam, but it goes 50 meters every minute, so you have to go from a full stop to 1st or 2nd gear all the time, for 3 hours in a row, uphill. It's not a surprise many cars get overheated because there is no driving wind to cool the engine. Uphill stop-and-go for 3 hours in a row is especially a problem if you're towing a caravan.


----------



## Coccodrillo

At least, this will be the last summer with long jams. Some will remain because of the Blockabfertigung.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I wonder how the Katschbergtunnel toll plaza will be able to cope with the summer traffic once the Tauerntunnel is no major obstacle anymore. That toll plaza has only 6 or 7 gates southbound. French 2x2 toll routes cannot cope with traffic at 15 toll gates.


----------



## Coccodrillo

A solution would be a common European system like the Italian Telepass. Can we hope this will be done, one day?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A unified E-tag would be a great idea in Europe, but a problem remains; people from non-toll countries (Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, etc.) are unlikely to have such a tag because they only need it twice a year. And those people also happen to be the ones who create those massive traffic jams at the Tauern and Gotthard tunnels.


----------



## Coccodrillo

There are also systems that read registration plates. This may be an alternative.


----------



## snowman159

ChrisZwolle said:


> I wonder how the Katschbergtunnel toll plaza will be able to cope with the summer traffic once the Tauerntunnel is no major obstacle anymore. That toll plaza has only 6 or 7 gates southbound. French 2x2 toll routes cannot cope with traffic at 15 toll gates.


Does anyone know how well it has been able to cope with northbound traffic so far? Katschberg Tunnel is already 2x2 and the toll plaza looks freakishly small. Any delays and traffic would quickly back up into the tunnel. At which point, I guess, they would activate 'Blockabfertigung' again to reduce the risk of rear-end collisions mid-tunnel. Did that happen last summer?

Btw, you can pay the toll in advance (e.g. via internet, cell phones, etc.) and drive through Videomaut lanes without having to stop. A lot of German tourists use that service.
http://www.asfinag.at/maut/sonderma...s-3-5t-hzg/bezahlung-der-sondermaut/videomaut


----------



## FabriFlorence

snowman159 said:


> here's a map:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B221 is an important and often congested thoroughfare, but it's not limited access and there are traffic lights - lots of them. And as you can see, it covers only the western half of Vienna.


It's strange that a big city like Vienna doesn't have a full ring autobahn or at least a fast way without traffic lights and level crossings (like for example the Mittlerer Ring of Munich). 
Is it possible you don't have any traffic problems?


----------



## 3naranze

Coccodrillo said:


> A solution would be a common European system like the Italian Telepass. Can we hope this will be done, one day?


the EC project has a name: easyway


----------



## keber

^^ To make things even more complicated.

Really, that next exit is actually where A2 goes and it is an exit for Wien-center - defacto this is A2-S1-A21-A23 interchange. Maximize zoom in Google maps (only map) to see it better.


----------



## Verso

^^ But you can also continue straight forward and you'll still get to A23 (both directions, east and west). So really, what's the purpose of making two branches for the same destination?


----------



## keber

Verso said:


> ^^ But you can also continue straight forward and you'll still get to A23 (both directions, east and west). So really, what's the purpose of making two branches for the same destination?


Actually, going straight forward you get to A23, which continues northeast. Going right you stay on A2, which continues northwest. And as I remember (it's been one year, when I was travelling right there) you cannot turn to A2 after this exit anymore. This was probably done to avoid weaving of traffic from A2 with those from A21 and S1.

All OK, but bad signage makes navigating through all that spaghetti difficult.


----------



## lucaf1

Schnellstraße are roads identified always by the signal autostraße and Schnellstraße are tolled and dual carriageway is not mandatory. Schnellstraße are identified by the capital letter S. Always trumpet/Cloverleaf interchange.

By the way the signal autostraße can be identified other roads (≠ Schnellstraße).

Is that right?


----------



## Verso

lucaf1 said:


> Schnellstraße are roads identified always by the signal autostraße and Schnellstraße are tolled and dual carriageway is not mandatory. Schnellstraße are identified by the capital letter S. Always trumpet/Cloverleaf interchange.
> 
> By the way the signal autostraße can be identified other roads (≠ Schnellstraße).
> 
> Is that right?


Generally yes, except that some motorways are also signed as "S" roads, e.g. S33 (to fool NIMBYs).


----------



## ilyan

What about motorway A5 between Wien and checzian border? When it should be opened? I heard that it was planned to open this motorway in 2010 year.


----------



## philimonas

It is marked as "in planning" here.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There was some news recently:



> *Die A5 hat Priorität*
> 
> Ende November wird es offiziell bekannt gegeben: Die Nordautobahn wird weiter gebaut.
> 
> Möglicherweise war der Beschluss der tschechischen Regierung ausschlaggebend, der jetzt doch einen vierspurigen Ausbau der R52 bis Drasenhofen-Mikulov und nur einen zweispurigen Bau der R55 bei Breclav vorsieht.
> 
> Mikulov-Drasenhofen ist damit in Abkehr eines früheren Regierungsbeschlusses eindeutig als Grenzübertrittspunkt für die Autobahnverbindung Wien-Brünn festgelegt. Klar ist damit für die Straßenplaner, wie es auf tschechischer Seite weitergehen soll. Dem Vernehmen nach planen die Tschechen, bereits 2014 mit ihrer Autobahn an der Grenze bei Drasenhofen anzulanden. Und dieser Druck ist auch notwendig. Denn die Förderzusagen aus Brüssel für das Projekt laufen 2013 aus.


http://www.noen.at/lokales/noe-uebersicht/mistelbach/aktuell/art2689,11464

The construction of the A5 to the Czech border will be sped up - official plans will be unfolded in November. Reason is EU funding and the fact the CZ government is speeding up the construction of R55, which may reach the Austrian border by 2014. 

Traffic at this border crossing increased by 31% last year.


----------



## mapman:cz

ChrisZwolle said:


> The construction of the A5 to the Czech border will be sped up - official plans will be unfolded in November. Reason is EU funding and the fact the CZ government is speeding up the construction of R55, which may reach the Austrian border by 2014.


A5 will be connected to R52 (Brno - Mikulov). R55 is another project bypassing town of Břeclav a heading towards Hodonin and Uherske Hradiste.

The rest is more less true, R52 is being sped up because of the fact that it's EU priority axis (25 if I remember correctly).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, I meant R52.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The new Danube Bridge near Traismauer in the S33 expressway opened yesterday.

Location:









News:
http://noe.orf.at/stories/478819/


----------



## rarse

Nice


----------



## snowman159

ChrisZwolle said:


> The new Danube Bridge near Traismauer in the S33 expressway opened yesterday.


Actually, it was opened to traffic today. The opening ceremonies and speeches by politicians were held yesterday.


----------



## snowman159

http://diepresse.com/home/panorama/wien/605990/index.do?from=simarchiv

With the good news of the S33 bridge being completed, there's also some bad news: plans for the proposed Lobau Tunnel, the only remaining gap on Vienna's ring motorway, will be postponed. The 1.7 billion Euro (1700 million) price tag was the official reason given by the ASFINAG. Before the announcement of the delay, it was scheduled to open in 2018. Also the fact that the green party (outspoken opponents to the project) may gain some influence in city hall, will certainly not make matters any easier.


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## ilyan

How many stretches of motorways u/c in Austria? What about map of austrian motorways system? 
When are you going to begin built motorway S7 between Graz and hungarian border and part of motorway S31 in direction of hungarian border?


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## ChrisZwolle

ASFINAG, the Austrian motorway/expressway road authority, will invest € 6,5 billion in the 2011 - 2016 period. This is a rather drastic budget cut of € 2,8 billion or rougly 30%. (The rail budget cut is only some 10%).

Still, a large number of useful projects will be build. 

map with projects

1) A14: 2nd tube Pfänder Tunnel + renovation existing tube
2) S16: construction Dalaaser Tunnel
3) Arlberg Tunnel: safety projects
4) A12: Innsbruck - Amras: traffic safety projects
5) A10: 2nd tube Tauern Tunnel + renovation existing tube
6) A11: safety measures Karawanken Tunnel
7) A9: 2nd tube Bosrücktunnel
8) A9: 2nd tubes Tunnelchain Klaus
9) S10: construction Unterweitersdorf - Freistadt
10) S34: construction St. Pölten - Wilhelmsburg
11) S3: construction Hollabrunn - Guntersdorf
12) A5: construction Poysbrunn - CZ border
13) A5: construction Schrick - Poysbrunn
14) S1: construction Knoten Schwechat - Süßenbrunn
15) S8: construction Knoten Deutsch Wagram - Gänserndorf
16) S8: construction Gänserndorf - SK border
17) A3: construction Eisenstadt - H border
18) S7: construction Riegersdorf - H border
19: A23; construction Landstraße Eurogate

The most visual projects are the construction of the S1, which is the eastern bypass of Wien (Vienna), including a Danube tunnel. Another big project is the construction of A5 from Wien to the Czech border. S8 will run towards the Slovak border, and S7 and A3 will be constructed to the Hungarian border. 

This means the number of motorway border crossings in eastern Austria will be increased from 2 to 6.


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## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> ASFINAG, the Austrian motorway/expressway road authority, will invest € 6,5 billion in the 2011 - 2016 period. This is a rather drastic budget cut of € 2,8 billion or rougly 30%.


Are there any urgent road projects excluded from the plan? With the expansion of the EU, it became necessary to improve the road connections between Austria (especially Vienna) and countries such as the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, and Slovenia. That requires ramping the road budget up and then back down again once the major works have been completed.


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## ChrisZwolle

I think the Linz bypass has been scrapped, including an extension to the Czech border (which would connect to D3 towards Praha). I also think the expressway north of Hollabrunn has been scrapped.

The Karawankentunnel (Villach - Ljubljana) will receive safety upgrades, not a second tube although I believe there is some pressure to spend some more money for a second tube.


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## panda80

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think the Linz bypass has been scrapped, including an extension to the Czech border (which would connect to D3 towards Praha). I also think the expressway north of Hollabrunn has been scrapped.
> 
> The Karawankentunnel (Villach - Ljubljana) will receive safety upgrades, not a second tube although I believe there is some pressure to spend some more money for a second tube.


The extension of A7 towards the czech border isn't on that list as S10 (unfortunately only till freistadt, but from there on traffic isn't so unbearable)? Also I see on that list the expressway north of Hollabrunn, S3.


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## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think the Linz bypass has been scrapped, including an extension to the Czech border (which would connect to D3 towards Praha). I also think the expressway north of Hollabrunn has been scrapped.


Do you mean postponed or really scrapped? 

I thought it would be the A7 that would be extended to meet the D3 at the Czech border. You're not suggesting it would be the 126, are you?


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## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Karawankentunnel (Villach - Ljubljana) will receive safety upgrades, not a second tube although I believe there is some pressure to spend some more money for a second tube.


Pressure is rising, hopefully in the next timeframe after 2016 would be done more.
http://kaernten.orf.at/stories/481256/


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## ChrisZwolle

mcarling said:


> Do you mean postponed or really scrapped?


There is no such thing as "really scrapping" a road project. Something one government buries "for ever" could just as much be initiated again by the next government. 




> I thought it would be the A7 that would be extended to meet the D3 at the Czech border. You're not suggesting it would be the 126, are you?


There are two projects; one was the A26, which would act as a western bypass of Linz. The other one is the S10, which runs from the A7 north of Linz towards the Czech border. It is currently U/C until Freistadt, but it seems the rest to the CZ border has been scrapped from the 2011 - 2016 investment period. But the Czechs are also not really constructing D3/R3 at the speed of light, so to say.


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## snowman159

The much needed S1 in Vienna between Schwechat and Süssenbrunn has also been put on hold, as I wrote earlier. The ASFINAG is practically broke and Vienna's anti-car Green Party is now in charge of infrastructure - you do the math.


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## snowman159

The S36 project south of Judenburg is also dead and not even on the list anymore, even though works have already started.


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## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> But the Czechs are also not really constructing D3/R3 at the speed of light, so to say.


are they doing something on that route at all?
btw, i read that somewhere between České Budějovice and Dolní Dvořiště is one of the largest black points in CZ.


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## ChrisZwolle

snowman159 said:


> The much needed S1 in Vienna between Schwechat and Süssenbrunn has also been put on hold, as I wrote earlier. The ASFINAG is practically broke and Vienna's anti-car Green Party is now in charge of infrastructure - you do the math.


Yes, the green party chooses the well-being of some frogs over humans just like that. I don't understand why they always award infrastructure to green parties in local governments. Deterioration of traffic flow guaranteed.

However, S1 is included in the 2011 - 2016 investment programme.



> S1 Wiener Außenring Schnellstraße, Schwechat–Süßenbrunn
> • voraussichtlicher Baubeginn und Verkehrsfreigabe derzeit noch offen, abhängig von laufenden Gesprächen mit der Stadt Wien
> • Gesamtkosten: W 1,7 Mrd. (abhängig vom Zeitpunkt der Umsetzung)
> 
> Status:
> Die S 1 Wr. Außenring Schnellstraße als Teil des Regionenrings zählt verkehrspolitisch zu den prioritären Projekten im Bauprogramm des hochrangigen Straßennetzes. Für die Realisierung der S 1 laufen intensive konstruktive Gespräche und Verhandlungen zwischen der Stadt Wien und bmvit/Asfinag. Asfinag und bmvit werden daher umgehend entsprechende Planungen in Angriff nehmen und voran treiben. Die Einreichung von Einreichprojekt und Umweltverträglichkeitserklärung (UVE) der S 1 Wiener Außenring Schnellstraße im Abschnitt Schwechat bis Süßenbrunn zum 1. teilkonzentrierten Genehmigungsverfahren beim BMVIT erfolgte am 27. März 2009.
> 
> Anmerkung: Das Projekt Schwechat – Süßenbrunn ist im Rahmenplan Niederösterreich ebenfalls angeführt.


It's a bit ironic the green party opposes a tunnel under the Donau river, while there are huge industrial areas in the exact same location, heck a huge refinery is located on the bank of the Donau.


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## Surel

x-type said:


> are they doing something on that route at all?
> btw, i read that somewhere between České Budějovice and Dolní Dvořiště is one of the largest black points in CZ.


Well, they are doing something but that something is not enough anyway. So there is long missing part still.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=67195589&postcount=1352

The problem is what else then money. The new minister Vít Barta is not willing to spend more than 12 mld CZK for a bypass of České Budějovice long 7,2 km (That is around 70 mil Euro per km) where a tunnel under "football pitch" was planned. To be honest I dont wonder.

A PPP project for the whole D3-R3 is said to come... ...


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## Qwert

ChrisZwolle said:


> ASFINAG, the Austrian motorway/expressway road authority, will invest € 6,5 billion in the 2011 - 2016 period. This is a rather drastic budget cut of € 2,8 billion or rougly 30%. (The rail budget cut is only some 10%).
> 
> Still, a large number of useful projects will be build.
> 
> map with projects
> 
> 1) A14: 2nd tube Pfänder Tunnel + renovation existing tube
> 2) S16: construction Dalaaser Tunnel
> 3) Arlberg Tunnel: safety projects
> 4) A12: Innsbruck - Amras: traffic safety projects
> 5) A10: 2nd tube Tauern Tunnel + renovation existing tube
> 6) A11: safety measures Karawanken Tunnel
> 7) A9: 2nd tube Bosrücktunnel
> 8) A9: 2nd tubes Tunnelchain Klaus
> 9) S10: construction Unterweitersdorf - Freistadt
> 10) S34: construction St. Pölten - Wilhelmsburg
> 11) S3: construction Hollabrunn - Guntersdorf
> 12) A5: construction Poysbrunn - CZ border
> 13) A5: construction Schrick - Poysbrunn
> 14) S1: construction Knoten Schwechat - Süßenbrunn
> 15) S8: construction Knoten Deutsch Wagram - Gänserndorf
> 16) S8: construction Gänserndorf - SK border
> 17) A3: construction Eisenstadt - H border
> 18) S7: construction Riegersdorf - H border
> 19: A23; construction Landstraße Eurogate
> 
> The most visual projects are the construction of the S1, which is the eastern bypass of Wien (Vienna), including a Danube tunnel. Another big project is the construction of A5 from Wien to the Czech border. S8 will run towards the Slovak border, and S7 and A3 will be constructed to the Hungarian border.
> 
> This means the number of motorway border crossings in eastern Austria will be increased from 2 to 6.


I think you got it wrong (or perhaps me). If you look at tha map carefully there is "Autobahnprojekte nach 2016" which means "motorway projects after 2016". Cross-border sections (S10, S3, A5, S8 and A3) will be built after that year. The same applies for some sections of S34 and S16. Until 2016 plenty of Austrian Autobahns will approach the borders of CZ, SK and HU, but only S7 will actually reach the (HU) border.


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## mcarling

Qwert said:


> I think you got it wrong (or perhaps me). If you look at tha map carefully there is "Autobahnprojekte nach 2016" which means "motorway projects after 2016". Cross-border sections (S10, S3, A5, S8 and A3) will be built after that year. The same applies for some sections of S34 and S16. Until 2016 plenty of Austrian Autobahns will approach the borders of CZ, SK and HU, but only S7 will actually reach the (HU) border.


It looks like the solid yellow means by 2016 and the striped yellow/white means after 2016.


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## KingNick

snowman159 said:


> The much needed S1 in Vienna between Schwechat and Süssenbrunn has also been put on hold, as I wrote earlier. The ASFINAG is practically broke and Vienna's anti-car Green Party is now in charge of infrastructure - you do the math.


Who needs the S1? STRABAG, PORR or Alpine?


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## ChrisZwolle

Qwert said:


> I think you got it wrong (or perhaps me). If you look at tha map carefully there is "Autobahnprojekte nach 2016" which means "motorway projects after 2016". Cross-border sections (S10, S3, A5, S8 and A3) will be built after that year. The same applies for some sections of S34 and S16. Until 2016 plenty of Austrian Autobahns will approach the borders of CZ, SK and HU, but only S7 will actually reach the (HU) border.


Well, I just used the list on the lower right of that graph.


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## Qwert

mcarling said:


> It looks like the solid yellow means by 2016 and the striped yellow/white means after 2016.


Yes, I think so.



ChrisZwolle said:


> Well, I just used the list on the lower right of that graph.


It seems the list contains both projects for 2011 - 2016 period and projects after 2016. It's a pity not all those section will be built until 2016.


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## Moravian

KingNick said:


> Who needs the S1? STRABAG, PORR or Alpine?


Well, it might be so. The fact is that the capacity of the section by the Praterbruecke (A23) is almost over. I do not think that the real value of the National Park Donau-March-Auen at Lobau near Oil Habour Lobau would be so high (no so down the Danube stream).

No doubts that the participation of the local Green-Party at the goverment of Vienna now has to be considered (this party could play with such a political card...). However the key issue for the project of S1 in Lobau/Donau will be certainly the financing and the lack of money at ASFINAG. On the other hand the recommended route "CZ" etc. (S1/A4) noted at the juction Voesendorf (A2/A21/S1) has almost no sense - except of the "unloading" of the Wiener Suedosttangente A23.

The fact is that the delaying of the project of the S1 jeopardizes the project of S8 - the first section to Deutsch-Wagram included....


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## rheintram

A lot of wrong stuff is written here: These Autobahn projects have been scrapped by the federal government, which is a coalition between conservatives and social democrats. The green party of Vienna had nothing to do with cancelling these projects!

The true reason is, that Austria is in a financially difficult situation, just like the rest of Europe, ASFINAG is completely broke and has billions of depts and then some projects were simply deemed unnecessary.

The criterion for a federal street (Autobahn, Schnellstraße) is that it serves an interregional purpose. In the case of Linz the new street would only be of intra-city purpose. Hence the city or the state of Upper Austria should build a street there, not the federal government.

In the end there are still way to many useless projects on the list, that will hopefully get cut sooner or later too.


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## ChrisZwolle

> In the end there are still way to many useless projects on the list, that will hopefully get cut sooner or later too.


Such as? You don't think the Austrian highway system should be integrated with that of its neighbors?


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## rheintram

ChrisZwolle said:


> Such as? You don't think the Austrian highway system should be integrated with that of its neighbors?


Yes and no. Our system is already pretty well integrated with our neighbor countries, except maybe for the eastern neighbors. But there the necessity of decent rail connections prevails the need for new autobahns. 

However, most projects on the list have nothing to do with pan-European corridors, but mostly serve only a local purpose. Some are utterly useless, e.g. 



> A14: 2nd tube Pfänder Tunnel + renovation existing tube
> S16: construction Dalaaser Tunnel


The 2nd tube will not help anything at all. They claim there will be less traffic jams in Bregenz once it is finished. But the true reason for these jams are people who try to avoid Austrian autobahn tolls and just wanna transfer between Germany and Switzerland. In fact right now you can purchase a ticket for about 3,5€ that allows you to do just that. Once the 2nd tube will be completed, ASFINAG decided this option will not be available anymore. So in fact the 2nd tube will not do any good at all (except for maybe improving safety).

And the second project, Dalaaser tunnel, is stupid too, because S16 is already a very decent highway for cars. However recent measures have made it more and more attractive for trucks. Why is that bad? Because it will open a new North-South Alpine transit route. We already have the Brenner troubles, now we'll make it worse.


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## ChrisZwolle

The second tube in the Pfänder Tunnel is mainly a traffic safety feature I suppose. And the lack of trans-alpine routes is exactly why you have troubles (though not as big as the Gotthard) on the Brenner Pass..


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## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> And the lack of trans-alpine routes is exactly why you have troubles on the Brenner Pass..


The problem is that Italians drink Evian and French drink San Pellegrino :bash: (and other unnecessary transports)



ChrisZwolle said:


> (though not as big as the Gotthard)


Not really 

(except when thousand of Dutch and German decide to move together)


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## ChrisZwolle

Coccodrillo said:


> The problem is that Italians drink Evian and French drink San Pellegrino :bash: (and other unnecessary transports)


Such populist statements always seem to fare well in Switzerland and Austria, but fail to address the real problems... What they fail to see is that there is a major industrialized country with 60 million inhabitants south of the Alps that also has transportation needs.


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## Coccodrillo

Yes but there is no need to transport cream from Switzerland to Central Italy, pack it there into bottles, and then bring it back to Switzerland (I remember this example, shown by an environmentalist group).


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## ChrisZwolle

KingNick said:


> Public Transport with a cost-benefit ratio of 0.25? :lol:


The fact that you laugh about something like this proves already you're not really into these things. First of all, you need to be very cautious about what is included and what is not included in cost-benefit ratios. For example, a large portion of income for public transport authorities include subsidized travel. This can range from discounts for certain demographic groups to free travel for students or free or discounted travel for government workers. This is all paid by tax money, but is accounted as general revenue by transportation companies.

It's all about how you approach this. For example, the cost-benefit ratio for a new railway line Breda - Utrecht in the Netherlands ranged from 0.05 to 1.05 depending on the survey. Somebody who wants or do not wants this railway line to be constructed can pick the prefferred method which outcome suits him/her best. For example, the farebox recovery ratio for the New York City subway is often quoted around 60%. However, this is only their operational recovery ratio. If you include all expenses, it is closer to 35%.


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## ChrisZwolle

KingNick said:


> Well, this proves me that you have no clue what the situation north of Linz is like. Public transport simply does not exist there.


There are no large population centers north of Linz, which do not require an extensive transit north of the city. Maybe some bus lines for less fortunate groups, but building a new regional railway to places like Bad Leonfelden is really not going to solve traffic problems in Linz in a way a western bypass is not necessary anymore. 

Public transport improvements can always be necessary, but this absolutely does not eliminate the need for road improvements. Like I said, the shared target audience and subsequent potential for modal shift is very limited.


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## Surel

You guys should be using "benefit-cost" ratio (BCR), otherwise you are commenting the reciprocal and then your comments are just funny.


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## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> Cost-benefit analyses are often wrong by 30-50%, says Wikipedia citing some peer-reviewed articles.


Danish professor Bent Flyvbjerg did some interesting studies about this. "Megaprojects and risk". The main problem with road investment was underestimated usage and slightly underestimated cost, while rail investment had often (grossly) overestimated usage and (grossly) underestimated cost, which means it is financially risky from two sides. 

Also interesting is the study about cost escalation and demand forecast problems:
http://flyvbjerg.plan.aau.dk/Publications2007/URBANRAIL61PRINT.pdf










Excluding 2 statistical outliers, you get this:


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## rower2000

Surel said:


> You guys should be using "benefit-cost" ratio (BCR), otherwise you are commenting the reciprocal and then your comments are just funny.


LOL, you're right.



ChrisZwolle said:


> There are no large population centers north of Linz, which do not require an extensive transit north of the city. Maybe some bus lines for less fortunate groups, but building a new regional railway to places like Bad Leonfelden is really not going to solve traffic problems in Linz in a way a western bypass is not necessary anymore.
> 
> Public transport improvements can always be necessary, but this absolutely does not eliminate the need for road improvements. Like I said, the shared target audience and subsequent potential for modal shift is very limited.


Well, Bezirk Freistadt has 64,000 people, Bezirk Rohrbach has 57,000 people. Probably 40 or 50% of those commute to Linz. Regional bus lines plus improvements on the existing rail lines like Summerauerbahn and Mühlkreisbahn should definitely bring an advantage here. Both Freistadt and Rohrbach have only infrequent bus and rail connections to Linz in irregular intervals with travel times exceeding 1 hour for 50 km, which is ridiculous and of course cannot compete with cars for commuting. Plus, the bus options also have the problem with traffic jams in Linz and in the rush hour most probably will be delayed. Commuter lines are actually those where public transportation CAN bring the best results if the offers are reasonably matched to what the commuting people demand.


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## Moravian

rower2000 said:


> LOL, you're right.
> 
> 
> Well, Bezirk Freistadt has 64,000 people, Bezirk Rohrbach has 57,000 people. Probably 40 or 50% of those commute to Linz. Regional bus lines plus improvements on the existing rail lines like Summerauerbahn and Mühlkreisbahn should definitely bring an advantage here. Both Freistadt and Rohrbach have only infrequent bus and rail connections to Linz in irregular intervals with travel times exceeding 1 hour for 50 km, which is ridiculous and of course cannot compete with cars for commuting. Plus, the bus options also have the problem with traffic jams in Linz and in the rush hour most probably will be delayed. Commuter lines are actually those where public transportation CAN bring the best results if the offers are reasonably matched to what the commuting people demand.


IMO there are more issues concerning the A26-bypass in Linz. Please let me summarize that:


a)Linz is the third largest city (with heavy industry) in Austria, so it generates (itself) the large volume of the car traffic.
b)the commuting to Linz - first of all from Muehlviertel - is the real matter to be tackled,
c)the motorway A7 coming via Linz is very very busy road - in Austria jus behind the city motorways (sections) in Vienna.
d)it is tricky issue if the construction of the A26-motorway is the right step forward and if it is the (seeked) omnipotent remedy for traffic issues there. It is definitely no so easy to build-up any ring-road in that city located in Danube valley.
d)the motorway ("schnellstrasse) S10 between the current ending of the A7 and the county town Freistadt is just u/c. It will be surely step forward - first of all for the commuters...The national road B310 is a bit "old-fashioned" road there - many villages on the way, plenty of corners etc...The section between Freistadt and the Czech boarder (S1) will be built later on. It is not so urgent project. Anyway, it is not so easy to plan any infrastructure-project in region Muehlviertel - as the structure of the local settlement - so called "Versiedlung" there. Many small villages, mountain hamlets etc. (for planning of the motorway-junctions, bus-stops etc.),
e)there is quite good road No.126 between Linz and Bad Leonfelden (after its reconstruction (I do not know the national road No.127 to Rohrbach)
f)the savings project of ASFINAG in Austria has to be taken into the account - and the project of the A26 is definitely very expensive project,
h)the project of the A26 is the political issue - issue between the goverment in Vienna and local goverment in Linz (Upper Austria),
g)the fact is there is large agglomeration Linz-Traun-Wels, significantly developing(shopping centres, industrial zones etc.). The fact is that the local road like the national road No.1 or No.136 are improved and have been (partially) undergoing the widening-reconstruction....
h)the railway-connection between Linz and Muhlviertel is not fully able to compete - in comparison with car commuting.....


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## ChrisZwolle

Most industry of Linz is located on the east side of the city though (port on the Danube), where A7 already runs. The A26 will be extremely expensive, though I can see that after 2020 fewer new motorways are needed in Austria, which means funding may become available for "luxury" projects like A26 as a full-blown motorway. As far as I know, a "Sparautobahn" (discount autobahn) is also an option.


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## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> What many people fail to address is that public transport and road transport cater two different target audiences. Yes, there is some overlap, but not enough to argue a motorway is not necessary because there will be investment in public transport. Especially in Europe where public transport is already fairly extensive and frequent, the additional modal shift is extremely limited. For instance in the Rotterdam area, the investment of around € 1 billion in public transport instead of a motorway link would reduce road traffic by 0 - 1%.
> 
> This is even more evident in freight transport. For example they have the highest truck tolls in the world in Switzerland, which was introduced in 2001. They hoped freight traffic would shift to rail. However, in the last 20 years, there has been no more increase in rail-based tonnage km than could be called "autonomous growth" (10% in 20 years or only 0.5% per year on average). It is true truck traffic through Switzerland decreased somewhat after the implementation of the Schwerverkehrsabgabe, but no significant modal shift to rail has occurred. In the same time, trans-Alpine truck traffic through Austria increased over 30% between 2001 and 2004. Austria is simply getting trans-alpine truck traffic that otherwise would've driven through Switzerland.


I agree with the first part, except that sometimes people use cars (or trucks) because of laziness and not for lack of alternatives. If really there can't be public alternatives then roads may/should be built.

About the second part, swiss transalpine rail traffic rose around 34% between 2002 and 2008 (19 to 25.5 millions of tonnes), road traffic around 37% (10.5 to 14.4 millions of tonnes). Trucks were around the same number, 1.249.000 (2002) and 1.275.000 (2008) (truck weight limit increased from 28 to 40 tonnes). Further rail traffic increase is not probable until 2020 as railways are already saturated (Simplon-Lötschberg, even with the new tunnel) or with low height clearance that limit semitrailers to 3.80 m (Gotthard line - but it is not worth increase the profile on a line which will loose most traffic in the next 10 years - also other tunnels not replaced by this line are still too low, but it is hoped to enlarge them within them opening of the new line).

Also the Brenner railway has capacity problems for example around Innsbruck (these will partly be solved in 2012 with a new line). Remember that road transport got a lot of new multi-lane motorways, while most railways have still to concentrate all traffic on one track per direction, on lines of the original network (comparable to old national roads).

Beside that there is really no point to send 30 trucks with 30 semitrailers, as they can be grouped in a single train (when height and congestion problems - be they iNS witzerland, Austria, Germany or Italy - will be at least partially solved).


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## Moravian

ChrisZwolle said:


> Most industry of Linz is located on the east side of the city though (port on the Danube), where A7 already runs. The A26 will be extremely expensive, though I can see that after 2020 fewer new motorways are needed in Austria, which means funding may become available for "luxury" projects like A26 as a full-blown motorway. As far as I know, a "Sparautobahn" (discount autobahn) is also an option.


Yes, the story of the city motorway A7 in Linz is really similar to the troubles of the A23 in Vienna. The industrial part of Linz (the key point are steel works holding VOEST-Alpine) is just connected to the A7. The fact is that there have been huge investment into A7 in Linz in past 10 years. You are right - the idea of so called "Sparautobahn" is discussed in Austria again - as the previous statement of the Ministry of the transport that it is not necessary to build (always) the XXL-Autobahns :lol: everywhere and everytime - as there is lack of money at ASFINAG. Maybe, the part of project (of the A26) might be put through as the first stage (new Danube bridge, southern part of the motorway etc....).....


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## x-type

A7 actually has problem because it runs accross the middle of Linz, and it is actually transit motorway because traffic to CZ is not that small. so there should be real bypass of Linz for transit. i drove A7 and it was not too comfortable because it is crowded all the tme.


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## KingNick

ChrisZwolle said:


> The fact that you laugh about something like this proves already you're not really into these things. First of all, you need to be very cautious about what is included and what is not included in cost-benefit ratios. For example, a large portion of income for public transport authorities include subsidized travel. This can range from discounts for certain demographic groups to free travel for students or free or discounted travel for government workers. This is all paid by tax money, but is accounted as general revenue by transportation companies.
> 
> It's all about how you approach this. For example, the cost-benefit ratio for a new railway line Breda - Utrecht in the Netherlands ranged from 0.05 to 1.05 depending on the survey. Somebody who wants or do not wants this railway line to be constructed can pick the prefferred method which outcome suits him/her best. For example, the farebox recovery ratio for the New York City subway is often quoted around 60%. However, this is only their operational recovery ratio. If you include all expenses, it is closer to 35%.


Same accounts for building new roads. If you internalize all the costs created by road traffic (real cost transparency), you'll reach an percentage, which is also around 35 %. According to the austrian Federal Ministry for Transport, Innovation and Technology cost coverage was around 32 % in 2007. 1)

1) http://www.bmvit.gv.at/verkehr/gesamtverkehr/statistik/downloads/viz07_kap11.pdf, Page 220

But, and that is the very important part: New roads don't solve traffic problems, whereas public transport does, if planned well. One perfect example is the S-Bahn in Salzburg. State and federal State invested around € 250 Mio. in the project "S-Bahn Salzburg" and it turned out to be a total success. 3.4 Mio. riders every year alone on the S3.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

KingNick said:


> But, and that is the very important part: New roads don't solve traffic problems, whereas public transport does, if planned well. One perfect example is the S-Bahn in Salzburg. State and federal State invested around € 250 Mio. in the project "S-Bahn Salzburg" and it turned out to be a total success. 3.4 Mio. riders every year alone on the S3.


3.4 million per year = 9.300 per day. 

That's nothing compared to what roads in Salzburg carry. A1 carries 95.500 vehicles per day. At 1.2 persons per vehicle this translates to around 115.000 persons per day, compared to your "total success" of a mere 9.300 persons per day.

A motorway widening from 6 to 8 lanes will cost around € 20 million per km in a moderate dense urban area. Say this is for 10 kilometers. That's € 200 million to cater 115.000 people. Now compare this to the "total success" of € 250 million for the 9.300 people of the S-bahn. 

It's needless to say how much tax money is spent on a per-traveler basis when you compare it to roads, public transport comes out very bad. This doesn't mean we shouldn't cater public transport, but one has to be critical and skeptical, because we're talking about a lot of tax money that can only be spend once.


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> Beside that there is really no point to send 30 trucks with 30 semitrailers, as they can be grouped in a single train (when height and congestion problems - be they iNS witzerland, Austria, Germany or Italy - will be at least partially solved).


It depends on what cargo is being transported. For "critical" cargo and just-in-time operations, the opportunity costs of time lost in rail freight are far higher than any extra cost for diesel or truck drivers' wages.


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's needless to say how much tax money is spent on a per-traveler basis when you compare it to roads, public transport comes out very bad.


Not always, Milano-Seregno railway, from 15.000 to 40.000 daily trips only adding new train trips (not many new vehicles, no new infrastructure, mainly better organisation).



Suburbanist said:


> It depends on what cargo is being transported. For "critical" cargo and just-in-time operations, the opportunity costs of time lost in rail freight are far higher than any extra cost for diesel or truck drivers' wages.


Some trucks with air freight containers (that is something that have to be delivered quite quickly) are sent from an airport around Freiburg im Breisgau to Novara by train. But apart from exceptions, a lot of trucks could be grouped and shipped together.

Other statsitics for 2008. Of the 1.275.000 trucks crossing Swiss Alps 707.000 are in transit, 568.000 internal traffic or import-export. 6.410.000 crossed Austrian Alps, of them 3.229.000 were in transit (until Wechselpass/A2). For French Alps, 2.864.000 and 1.180.000 respectively (including Ventimiglia). "Transit" is intended (obviously) as from Italy to another nation different from France, Switzerland and Austria via one of them. Most transit in France is Italy-Spain-Portugal.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> 3.4 million per year = 9.300 per day.
> 
> That's nothing compared to what roads in Salzburg carry. A1 carries 95.500 vehicles per day. At 1.2 persons per vehicle this translates to around 115.000 persons per day, compared to your "total success" of a mere 9.300 persons per day.


What's the purpose of comparing a motorway long hundreds of kilometers, which serves a traffic mainly of long distance travelers, with a local city S-Bahn?



ChrisZwolle said:


> A motorway widening from 6 to 8 lanes will cost around € 20 million per km in a moderate dense urban area. Say this is for 10 kilometers. That's € 200 million to cater 115.000 people. Now compare this to the "total success" of € 250 million for the 9.300 people of the S-bahn.


This line of reasoning is also wrong. You should compare the _increased_ capacity of the widened road to the S-Bahn capacity, not the whole motorway.

And let me say this, you cannot measure "total success" only by number of people transported. It is an environmental and social success.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The 95.500 count is just in Salzburg itself, not the number of vehicles which use the entire motorway. That's also one of my pet peeves with toll road data, they often only provide information about the usage of the entire toll (sub)system instead of per road segment (between two junctions).

The highest confirmed traffic count in Austria is on A23 near Wien-Handelskai with 194.200 vehicles per day. However, this is the section between A4 (Wien-Prater) and Handelskai. It's likely the bridge section is slightly busier, probably around 200.000 - 210.000 vehicles per day.


----------



## KingNick

ChrisZwolle said:


> 3.4 million per year = 9.300 per day.
> 
> That's nothing compared to what roads in Salzburg carry. A1 carries 95.500 vehicles per day. At 1.2 persons per vehicle this translates to around 115.000 persons per day, compared to your "total success" of a mere 9.300 persons per day.
> 
> A motorway widening from 6 to 8 lanes will cost around € 20 million per km in a moderate dense urban area. Say this is for 10 kilometers. That's € 200 million to cater 115.000 people. Now compare this to the "total success" of € 250 million for the 9.300 people of the S-bahn.
> 
> It's needless to say how much tax money is spent on a per-traveler basis when you compare it to roads, public transport comes out very bad. This doesn't mean we shouldn't cater public transport, but one has to be critical and skeptical, because we're talking about a lot of tax money that can only be spend once.


How far are you actually thinking? Yeah widen the Autobahn and then? You can't do that in the city. Cities like Linz and Salzburg are already heavily congested and there is no freaking space left for extra lanes. So what's the point increasing road traffic capacity to the city limit? The only way you actually can reduce traffic in the city is by public transport. There is no other way, except everyone starting to ride their bikes to work. 

And I was just talking about one line (didn't find data about the other 4), which basically runs along the A10. The A10 at it's busiest part near Salzburg carries 53,435 cars/day and put that into perspective after 5 years of S-Bahn service and annual growth rates around 30 % and more. That is one big relieve to the city of Salzburg.

According to your calculation widening the A10 along the track of the S3 would cost around € 280 Mio (28 km x 10 Mio).


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## Suburbanist

^^ If you don't have space, you can:

(1) use eminent domain and torn down buildings near the highway to enlarge it

(2) build some elevated lanes

(3) build tunnels

In Europe, we need to come back with our terms of progress and accept the idea of urban elevated expressways. They are cheaper than tunnels and carry a hell lot of traffic.


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## cinxxx

I traveled in Austria this week, from border with Hungry, on A4, than S1, A21, A1, A8 Richtung Passau, not all of the road is perfect, but you can't compare it with the lack of motorways in Romania. Per total I was very pleased by the Austrian roads, also the traffic was not heavy.


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## KingNick

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ If you don't have space, you can:
> 
> (1) use eminent domain and torn down buildings near the highway to enlarge it
> 
> (2) build some elevated lanes
> 
> (3) build tunnels
> 
> In Europe, we need to come back with our terms of progress and accept the idea of urban elevated expressways. They are cheaper than tunnels and carry a hell lot of traffic.


You didn't read what I posted, right?


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ I did, and I meant to open new traffic expressways right into built-up inner-city area, sparing only its medieval core :cheers:


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## ChrisZwolle

You don't need inner city expressways in a city the size of Salzburg. Most jobs are not in the historic core anyway, most traffic will be around the center and in industrial areas on the edge of the city. However, apart from the A1 and A10, there are no good local roads bypassing Salzburg. To bypass the center, you need to get on all kinds of twisty roads not designed for through traffic. A10 is a bit far from Salzburg to carry local traffic and has only one exit to serve the area.


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## phiberoptik

Did someone made chronological progress of Austrian Autobahn and Schnellstrassenbahn network, just like TBoy made it for Croatia here? Or is there some site with history 
I'm just interested in A9, A10 and A11.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Yes:

http://www.wabweb.net/verkehr/austria/a_ab3.htm


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## phiberoptik

@ChrisZwole: Thank you for quick respond


----------



## Slartibartfas

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ I did, and I meant to open new traffic expressways right into built-up inner-city area, sparing only its medieval core :cheers:


Ah, great. Yes, lets dig out the plans of converting the Wien river into a highway connecting the States Opera right to the A1 and fully convert the Guertel into an inner ring highway. Instead of reviving the Guertel area into a vibrant urban quarter finally kill it off and with it entire neighbourhoods along it.

Sounds like the urban concept of the future.


----------



## Suburbanist

Slartibartfas said:


> Ah, great. Yes, lets dig out the plans of converting the Wien river into a highway connecting the States Opera right to the A1 and fully convert the Guertel into an inner ring highway. Instead of reviving the Guertel area into a vibrant urban quarter finally kill it off and with it entire neighbourhoods along it.
> 
> Sounds like the urban concept of the future.


You can always build new neighborhoods with all "vibrancy" (the most overrated attribute for an urban area IMO) you want.


----------



## Slartibartfas

Suburbanist said:


> You can always build new neighborhoods with all "vibrancy" (the most overrated attribute for an urban area IMO) you want.


Yes. Vienna could be a so much better place to live if they had built the Donaukanalautobahn, the Wientalautobahn and the Guertelautobahn, effectively crippling half of the centre and transforming it into some sort of hell hole with a small open air museum at its heart. 

Your kind of mindset had its heyday in the 1960s. In the meanwhile even in America most municipal governments figured out that lightheartedly destroying city centres and substituting them with more suburbia was not all that clever after all. 

Those who'd like to live in suburbia should do so but why are you so eager on destroying the urban centres? Do you hate them that much?


----------



## Suburbanist

Slartibartfas said:


> Those who'd like to live in suburbia should do so but why are you so eager on destroying the urban centres? Do you hate them that much?


I don't hate anything. I just don't like the sense we are living in a continent more and more paralyzed by sake of its architectural and urban development history. I think it is healthy that areas come in favor and then decay, and that metropolis have constantly changing centralities. It is not because somewhere was the center of life of a given city in 1400 that it should still be today! Sometimes, massive demolition and reconstruction helps that purpose.


----------



## JackFrost

Are there any plans to eliminate that terrible bottleneck at the interchanging of A2 and A3? I mean all these fancy projects, like tunnels here, bridges there, but nobody cares about the daily jams when coming from Eisenstadt to A2.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Suburbanist said:


> I don't hate anything. I just don't like the sense we are living in a continent more and more paralyzed by sake of its architectural and urban development history. I think it is healthy that areas come in favor and then decay, and that metropolis have constantly changing centralities. It is not because somewhere was the center of life of a given city in 1400 that it should still be today! Sometimes, massive demolition and reconstruction helps that purpose.


People usually like the historic centres of towns more than brand new large-scale concrete developments(including elevated motorways). 
It takes time to form a good public space and that is worth much more than any idea an architect or an urban planner has come up with.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> Sometimes, massive demolition and reconstruction helps that purpose.


Total madness.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Jack_Frost said:


> Are there any plans to eliminate that terrible bottleneck at the interchanging of A2 and A3? I mean all these fancy projects, like tunnels here, bridges there, but nobody cares about the daily jams when coming from Eisenstadt to A2.


The A2-A23 corridor is the busiest in Austria. However, most priorities seem to go to developing regional S-roads towards neighboring countries. One mistake in my opinion was to built S1 with 2x2 lanes. It should have been 2x3 lanes. Traffic volumes are already around 60.000 - 70.000 vehicles per day which means it is nearing its capacity.


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## keber

I think he meant this unfinished thing where whole motorway condenses into one lane:
http://goo.gl/maps/eSaN

There is more than enough lanes on A2 further up north (4+4)


----------



## rower2000

ChrisZwolle said:


> The A2-A23 corridor is the busiest in Austria. However, most priorities seem to go to developing regional S-roads towards neighboring countries. One mistake in my opinion was to built S1 with 2x2 lanes. It should have been 2x3 lanes. Traffic volumes are already around 60.000 - 70.000 vehicles per day which means it is nearing its capacity.


It was easier to press through wit only 2x2 lanes. However, the whole stretch including the tunnels have an extra-wide shoulder in the width of one full lane. I think the planners wanted to have a cheap upgrade possible via the back door. A normal 2,50 m shoulder can be added later at low cost and low planning risk...


----------



## JackFrost

ChrisZwolle said:


> The A2-A23 corridor is the busiest in Austria. However, most priorities seem to go to developing regional S-roads towards neighboring countries. One mistake in my opinion was to built S1 with 2x2 lanes. It should have been 2x3 lanes. Traffic volumes are already around 60.000 - 70.000 vehicles per day which means it is nearing its capacity.


I am using S1 every day, and its almost never crowded. Anyway, maybe there will be a 3rd lane needed in near future.

But Keber is right, I meant that section of A3 where it condenses into one lane before A2. Thats a very serious bottleneck there I tell you, and nobody seems to give a damn.


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## Slartibartfas

Suburbanist said:


> I don't hate anything. I just don't like the sense we are living in a continent more and more paralyzed by sake of its architectural and urban development history. I think it is healthy that areas come in favor and then decay, and that metropolis have constantly changing centralities. It is not because somewhere was the center of life of a given city in 1400 that it should still be today! Sometimes, massive demolition and reconstruction helps that purpose.


Who says that centres are fixed for all eternity? They are not in Vienna either. Public life nowadays centers a lot in the inner districts rather than the 1st district. The attempt to create a new center at the UN headquarters can be considered to be a half failed one so far. A new attempt is at the new main rail station which may have better chances because of IMO better planning and better location still within the dense parts of the city. 

But its a completely different issue than the one you were talking about above. What you were talking about was deliberate destruction of urban fabrics when it is much cheaper to bring what already is there up to date with the aim of optimizing life of quality in these parts of the city rather than building the perfect car optimized city. Why should one discard all the existing infrastructure for some massive planned new burb development somewhere in the middle of nowhere. Because its more expensive and while the destruction of the old quarters is pretty much for granted with what you suggest, the success of the new ones is definitely not. Not to forget that when I look to those communities in Germany which were so daring a few decades ago in doing exactly what you suggest its much more common to hear people from these cities complaining about that "progressive city replanning" rather than thinking positively of it.

If you want to mess up your city, just go ahead. But don't mess up the one I am living in.


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## Coccodrillo

How long are the summer queues on the Bosruck and Gleinalm tunnels?


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## wdw35

Knotten Schwechat. Check out the south-to-east ramp.










It took three iterations to "get it right" :lol:
(And this will change again when the bypass will be extended north)


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## ChrisZwolle

Knoten Schwechat was designed to be a cloverleaf. It may have been a regular exit for a while before S1 was constructed in this area. A4 is older than S1.


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## keber

Still, redesign could be done better. Last time there I missed exit from A4 to S1 because of bad signage. Also all curves are very tight.


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## snowman159

ChrisZwolle said:


> Knoten Schwechat was designed to be a cloverleaf. It may have been a regular exit for a while before S1 was constructed in this area. A4 is older than S1.


I think what he meant was that they screwed up the new ramp when they built the S1 and had to redesign it after a series of accidents. That's why there are three of them (2 new ones, 1 old one from before the S1)


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## Fargo Wolf

wdw35 said:


> Knotten Schwechat. Check out the south-to-east ramp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It took three iterations to "get it right" :lol:
> (And this will change again when the bypass will be extended north)


Looks like it was a Clover Leaf originally. I can see the route where the pavement used to be. That would explain the routing of the original entrance ramp at the bottom of the pic. Not sure what was going on with the one in the middle ans then the current ramp.


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## mcarling

keber said:


> Last time there I missed exit from A4 to S1 because of bad signage.


Motorway signs in Austria are generally atrocious. Try driving from the A2 to the A4. There are no clues that you need to take the A23 for several kilometers, nor any clues at all how to get to the A4 until you're already on the A23 -- if you make it onto the A23.


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## keber

mcarling said:


> Motorway signs in Austria are generally atrocious. Try driving from the A2 to the A4. There are no clues that you need to take the A23 for several kilometers, nor any clues at all how to get to the A4 until you're already on the A23 -- if you make it onto the A23.


I know that:


keber said:


> Still I took this picture of one of the more confusing interchanges I ever travelled (A2-S1-A21 south of Wien)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I almost missed direction to S1 and airport (I missed S1 from A4 later that day) even if I was there just three months ago. Redesigning signs in interchanges should really be done in Austria.


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## Moravian

Sometimes, really too many information signed.....
Anyway - what information might be a bit confusing that - just at the juction Voesendorf (A21/A2/S1). It concerns the situation you are coming from Graz/A2 and continue to CZ (Praha/Brno). 
The recommendation there is to turn to right and use the souther part of the outer ring S1 (and to past through that already discussed junction S1/A4 in Schwechat......But the point is that the S1-motorway is not finished. So the shortest way is to continue via the A23 (Wiener Sued-Ost-Tangente) as in the past. No doubts that the background of that misleading "official" suggestion is to push the traffic out of the A23 to push the traffic out of the city....For the opposite direction (from the Prater-Motorway-Danubebridge) there is not that suggestion (to go via A4 and S1)......Just after the opening of the S1 many drivers were puzzled and tried that way....After that experience they came back and drive via A23 again.....


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## tetova

awesome picture of the südosttangente vienna


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## Zagor666

A 12 Direction Innsbruck


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## hofburg

nice pics. I see you were coming from switzerland.



>


via reutte, there is a very nice road to germany, half of it is like 2-lane motorway.


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## Verso

They should add "Bolzano" and "Merano" IMO.


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## ChrisZwolle

Verona  No trouble about whether to pick a German or Italian name


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## Zagor666

Verso said:


> They should add "Bolzano" and "Merano" IMO.


Well,the Name´s sound very similar but i am wondering why they name only Bolzano/Bozen its not a very big or well known City.Better put something like Verona or Modena on the Table.But on the italian side its the smae thing,they dont name Inssbruck only Brenner/Brennero.


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## hofburg

Italians have different system. They normaly put just the name of border crossig. As for Bozen/Bolzano, Austrians are still angry for sudtirol/alto adige  and it is quite well known city.


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## CNGL

They should write "Bolzano/Bozen/Bulsan", as Timon91 saw in a sign once :rofl:


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## Bad_Hafen

Zagor666 said:


> Well,the Name´s sound very similar but i am wondering why they name only Bolzano/Bozen its not a very big or well known City.Better put something like Verona or Modena on the Table.But on the italian side its the smae thing,they dont name Inssbruck only Brenner/Brennero.


Because Bolzano is German speaking town in South Tyrol and they take it like German town not Italian.


----------



## Zagor666

Bad_Hafen said:


> Because Bolzano is German speaking town in South Tyrol and they take it like German town not Italian.


Well,lets say it was.Today over 60% of the population in Bozen are Italians.In the villages around austrians make more then 90% of the population but in the big cities the situation is a little bit differend.But foreigner dont realy know about Bolzano,they should write Garda on the Table


----------



## g.spinoza

Bad_Hafen said:


> Because Bolzano is German speaking town in South Tyrol and they take it like German town not Italian.


The city of Bolzano proper is 73% Italian-speaking.


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> Verona  No trouble about whether to pick a German or Italian name


If I remember correct, there is Verona sign on German A8 at interchange with A93


----------



## Slartibartfas

Zagor666 said:


> Well,lets say it was.Today over 60% of the population in Bozen are Italians.In the villages around austrians make more then 90% of the population but in the big cities the situation is a little bit differend.But foreigner dont realy know about Bolzano,they should write Garda on the Table


I could not care less. In Vienna signs are also monolingual showing names like "Bratislava", nothing else, and thats not the name which was traditionally used in German for that town. 

But I would not mind if all the signs were bilingual instead. Bozen clearly is a bilingual city so it would make sense. 

Bozen/Bolzano is nowadays a city with an Italian speaking majority. The claim that German speakers only live in villages is absolute BS however. Meran/Merano has a German speaking majority for example, like most of the rest of Suedtirol, 3/4 of the inhabitants of Suedtirol actually are German speaking.


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## ChrisZwolle

keber said:


> If I remember correct, there is Verona sign on German A8 at interchange with A93


You do remember that correctly! But only in the eastbound direction, in the westbound direction it says "Kufstein" and "Innsbruck".


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## snowman159

That's the last remaining 2x2 section on the A1 between A21 and A9, right?

A different question: 
On the A2 south of Baden, near Kottingbrunn, it looks like preparations for repaving the pretty beat up concrete and asphalt are under way. Are there any plans to widen it to 2x4 in the process? I noticed they already paved the median, probably to allow for 2x3 traffic when one side of the road is closed down for repaving. So, when they're done, they could probably fit in an extra full-width lane in each direction.


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## bogdymol

A21 / A2 / S1 motorway interchange:










Notice the A2 and S1 markings on the walls.


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## KingNick

ASFINAG published some great animations of how the renovation of the A23 will be done:

klick me

Also Anschlussstelle Landstraße (a major bottleneck every day) will be rebuild:

http://www.asfinag.at/c/document_li...709-16fe-4bba-8fe8-aa2896383b40&groupId=10136


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## mediar

*Karawanken Autobahn [ A11 ] & Tauern Autobahn [ A10 ]
Karawankentunnel - Lendorf
26 March 2011*

Part 1:


----------



## mediar

Part 2:


----------



## mediar

Part 3:


----------



## mediar

Part 4:


----------



## mediar

Part 5:


----------



## mediar

Part 6:


----------



## hofburg

nice pics. do you happen to have photos from before karawanken tunnel?


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## ChrisZwolle

Nice report!

Speaking of Tauern Autobahn, ASFiNAG announced today that they will add 5 extra southbound toll gates at the Sankt Michael toll plaza between the Tauern Tunnel and the Katschberg Tunnel. This will raise the number of SB toll gates to 13, which should be capable of handling the larger traffic flow when the second tube at the Tauern Tunnel is completed this summer.


----------



## mediar

hofburg said:


> nice pics. do you happen to have photos from before karawanken tunnel?


I do, but they're not ready to be uploaded. At the moment I have more than 500 photos, waiting to be prepared for uploading, so you might have to wait a little bit.


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nice report!
> 
> Speaking of Tauern Autobahn, ASFiNAG announced today that they will add 5 extra southbound toll gates at the Sankt Michael toll plaza between the Tauern Tunnel and the Katschberg Tunnel. This will raise the number of SB toll gates to 13, which should be capable of handling the larger traffic flow when the second tube at the Tauern Tunnel is completed this summer.


why they have divided existing gates to southbound and northbound? they can always change direction on few of them depending about intensity of traffic. also, out of season there are only 3 lanes per direction opened: videomaut, cash lane and card lane. i find it too modestly.


----------



## bogdymol

In February this year I had the chance to travel on some Austrian autobahns. Here it is what I captured on camera.





















The videos cover all the autobahn from the Hungarian border at Nickelsdorf to the German border near Salzburg.

More videos to come!


----------



## Moravian

mediar said:


> I do, but they're not ready to be uploaded. At the moment I have more than 500 photos, waiting to be prepared for uploading, so you might have to wait a little bit.


Creditable pictures, thanks! For example I would highlight the pictures of the motorway A11. The view of Villacher Alpen (in spite of the cloudy weather) is interesting. It is a bit different view when you come by (via A2 - Villach - Arnoldstein)....Or the pictures of the single-carriageway section just behind the Karawankentunnel.


----------



## mgk920

mediar said:


> Part 6:


What is (or was) the plan for this ghost end?

Mike


----------



## x-type

mgk920 said:


> What is (or was) the plan for this ghost end?
> 
> Mike


probably a set up for eventual extension of the motorway in direction Steinberg and Lienz


----------



## mediar

*West Autobahn [ A1 ] & Ost Autobahn [ A4 ]
German Border - Hungarian Border
2 April 2011*

Part 1:


----------



## mediar

Part 2:


----------



## mediar

Part 3:


----------



## Verso

^^ Austrians still have a beef, because they lost it.  There's Laibach somewhere on A10 or A11 (or used to be anyhow).


----------



## Tauernautobahn

At least at newer signs in Styria, e.g. the ones at Interchange Graz-West only say "Maribor SLO", so I think Maribor/Marburg will be gone sooner or later.
As for Carinthia, now that it seems they are going to find a compromise at the "Ortstafelstreit" (dispute about bilingual German/Slovenian village entrance signs, which nobody outside of Carinthia is able to understand) maybe the stupid "Slowenien" and "Italien" will be gone in future, too. At least it makes me hope.

This sign is, as nearly always in Austria overloaded with information. I can't see any sense in all those country ovals....
It should be more like this IMO


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Zagor666

I remember the time as the Linz-Wien Autobahn was the only we used cause the Passau-Linz part and the Wien-Nickelsdorf part wasnt existant.Oh boy,those days in the 80s it was a totaly differend form of travelling :cheers:


----------



## Zagor666

You put Graz on the wrong side and you can cancel Wien.To sign Slovakia and Hungary in Salzburg is realy too early.How you do that?I wanna make signs :lol:


----------



## Tauernautobahn

I made that sign with PowerPoint, marked all the objects and saved it as an image.

Ok, I forgot that they sign Graz via A1 now, anyway I'd rather like an expressway connection Radstadt-Liezen, so maybe that's why I made it wrong


----------



## hofburg

...or not, there is an exit for Graz near Flachau on A10. btw, Tauernautobahn, cool nickname.


----------



## Zagor666

Tauernautobahn said:


> I made that sign with PowerPoint, marked all the objects and saved it as an image.
> 
> Ok, I forgot that they sign Graz via A1 now, anyway I'd rather like an expressway connection Radstadt-Liezen, so maybe that's why I made it wrong


Yeah,its not necessary to drive to Wels when you go to Graz from Salzburg and if you drive a Motorcycle you choose anyway a nice beautiful mountain road.The Tauern road is big enough,you can drive 120km/h


----------



## Verso

Don't touch ovals. :guns1:


----------



## Tauernautobahn

Just to be clear, I like the ovals but only where they are senseful (from that point a foreign town is signed)


----------



## Bad_Hafen

^^agree. I like ovals as well, but only when they have purpose.


----------



## Verso

Tauernautobahn said:


> Just to be clear, I like the ovals but only where they are senseful (from that point a foreign town is signed)


Maybe SK and H are too much since there's Vienna on the way, but CZ, SLO and I (Italy, not me) make sense IMO.


----------



## Bad_Hafen

and two SLO?! So they could just leave it out.


----------



## hofburg

heh, it looks like slovenia is all around austria :tongue:


----------



## Moravian

Zagor666 said:


> Now that is a sign! 5 country´s and almost every major city in Austria(miss only Innsbruck) :cheers:


The motorway juction at Salzburg is certainly very important, so there are large signes....Anyway - from the direction Wien/Linz (A1), there are TR, GR as well (not only I or SLO!). Currently the recommended route to Graz is the northern motorway-route (from Salzburg) via A1 and A9 (no more via Ennstal - B320).
Anyway, there was an additional sign with TR, RO, SRB etc. at the juction A1/A21 /the previous collection contains the nice picture from that place as well/. It might already have been displaced....Austrians like propably those countries ovals marks and the Austrian role in the internatinal traffic is stressed by using of them.


----------



## Verso

Bad_Hafen said:


> and two SLO?! So they could just leave it out.


Because Villach is so terribly huge that everyone knows it. Fact is that the two largest Slovenian cities are in different directions, so you have to point it out somehow. And that is by signing SLO in both directions and adding Ljubljana (with smaller fonts) for A10, so you know, which SLO to follow to get there (however signing Maribor by Salzburg would be over the top, hence just SLO).


----------



## Bad_Hafen

it would be than better to write either Ljubljana and Maribor on different signs, or just to ignore both of them. This halfway-inconsistent solution is just stupid. 
What if I wanna go to Celje is it SLO or Ljubljana SLO (i know but just hypothetically) I think that if someone travels to Maribor he knows that he firste has to come to Graz, and if someone travels to Ljubljana he knows that he first has to come to Villach.


----------



## Verso

It's a logical solution and you can't just ignore Slovenia, particularly since ovals are widely used in Austria.


----------



## Bad_Hafen

Maybe it is logical to you, but not to me. Inconsistency can not be logical. 
BTW we can debate it when looking at the photo from our homes, but just imagine when doing 130 on the motorway.... you got my point.


----------



## Verso

Bad_Hafen said:


> What if I wanna go to Celje is it SLO or Ljubljana SLO


That's like asking how to get from Ljubljana to Innsbruck since only Graz and Villach are signed.


----------



## Bad_Hafen

No your "explanation" was more like "I have no clue but I still want to get to 15k posts"
BTW you accidentally left out the part that followed.


----------



## KingNick

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've seen many twin-tube tunnels in the Alps with an 80 km/h speed limit. For instance that tunnel in A2 around Klagenfurt. I believe it even has section control, but I'm not sure.


You're most likely talking about the Ehrentalerbergtunnel, which is equipped with section control. Speed limit is 100 km/h.


----------



## rower2000

lafreak84 said:


> I'd rather choose to go via Vienna than via A9 because very often you have speed limits of 80km/h or 100km/h, a lot of road works and tunnel works and long dusty tunnels with speed limits as low as 60km/h and you have to stop for toll twice.


Going via Vienna would be a huge detour if you come from SLO/Maribor, 443 compared to 256 km. The Gleinalm toll you can easily avoid by going from Deutschfeistritz via S35 to Bruck/Mur and then the S6 back to St. Michael where you get back onto A9 (S35 is meant as a cutoff for the Bruck/Mur-Leoben-Vienna bound traffic from Graz).



ChrisZwolle said:


> I've seen many twin-tube tunnels in the Alps with an 80 km/h speed limit. For instance that tunnel in A2 around Klagenfurt. I believe it even has section control, but I'm not sure.


Sometimes in high traffic conditions they limit the speed to 80 km/h with variable signs as the capacity is highest at 80 km/h. Usually, most if not all twin-tube tunnels in Austria have 100 km/h default speed limit. The 60 km/h speed limit was probably in a construction zone.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The following projects are canceled because of budget cuts. They will save € 1.4 billion with this.

* A23 Wien extension to A1 canceled (€ 436 million saved)
* A24 Wien connector between A23 and S1 canceled (€ 490 million saved)
* A26 Linz, northern branch canceled (€ 400 million saved)
* S31 southern extension to Hungarian border (Szombathely) cancelled (€ 83 million saved)


----------



## Jakub Warszauer

Budget austerity measures?


----------



## KingNick

Most likely. Austria has so many big infrastructure projects going on right now, or are about to start, that this step is just a logical consequence.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

In my opinion, these are the least worst to cut back on.


----------



## JackFrost

ChrisZwolle said:


> In my opinion, these are the least worst to cut back on.


Well, probably you right. But if you ever drove on A7 you will agree that Linz needs A26 badly. No day without massive traffic jams on A7.

BUT: the widening of A3xA2 intersection wasnt cancelled fortunately.


----------



## Falusi

Former Wien - Budapest international highway(B10) between Nickelsdorf and Parndorf




Road quality is excellent, and speed limit is 100km/h so it was quite a good drive.
(the shaking of the first 30-35 sec is my fault, sorry)


----------



## Danielk2

How do you make that graphic in the lower right corner?


----------



## lafreak84

He's using video editing software.


----------



## Falusi

Yes with a video editing software. Only put my googled pics into the timeline than rescaled and positioned it and played a bit with the opacity at the appearing and disappearing.


----------



## Danielk2

What software is that ?


----------



## Falusi

I will reinstall my computer and before that I wanted to try out adobe premiere pro so i downloaded a trial version of it (with after effects to stabilize the videos). Sometimes it's a bit too professional the stabilizer don't works always properly and eats up totally my memory... I only recommend to try it if you have 2GB+ RAM. But you can put these signs into the video with most of the video editing sofwares.


----------



## muc

Seen at Raststation Ampass on A12 near Innsbruck:


----------



## Coccodrillo

The rebuilt first tube of the Tauerntunnel will reopen on 30th June: http://www.asfinag.at/presse?p_p_id...ournalArticlesPress_INSTANCE_y5Qq_version=1.0


----------



## seem

*S1* in Vienna



















*A22*










I took these photos yesterday.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Coccodrillo said:


> The rebuilt first tube of the Tauerntunnel will reopen on 30th June: http://www.asfinag.at/presse?p_p_id...ournalArticlesPress_INSTANCE_y5Qq_version=1.0


Plus the tolls will be increased by € 0.50


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Last Saturday at Tauertunnel there was a 25 km queue...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, most crossings in the Alps were a disaster last Saturday (45 km queue for the San Bernardino Tunnel). However, once the two tubes of the Tauern Tunnel are in operation from June 30th, the multi-hour delays are a thing of the past. I think some congestion is still possible due to safety-related blockabfertigung, but that will cause minor delays compared to the 4-hour delays there used to be...


----------



## KingNick

Probably most delays will be caused by the toll station after June.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The toll station will be expanded from 8 to 13 gates in the southbound direction for that reason. Nevertheless, there are indeed chances of delays at the toll plaza.


----------



## g.spinoza

I starting to like toll plazas less and less. They're source of queues even when the traffic itself is not so dense. Last Saturday there was a 15 km queue from Brennerpass to the toll station in Vipiteno-Sterzing.


----------



## mcarling

Toll stations were appropriate when we were limited to 20th century technology. However, they are extremely inefficient. The electronic vignettes used in Hungary, for example, are a much better solution.

In my opinion, vignettes should be required for all roads, not just motorways. Giving drivers an economic incentive to use local roads rather than motorways is economically and environmentally perverse.

With the EU funding so much road construction, I would not oppose EU-level vignettes. However, an extra tax on fuel would be even more efficient than electronic vignettes.


----------



## czerwony_bo_szybszy

mcarling said:


> However, an extra tax on fuel would be even more efficient than electronic vignettes.


I can`t believe anybody is still for rising fuel taxes. Simply insane.


----------



## cinxxx

It seams people have large incomes, and nothing to spend on


----------



## rheintram

I agree that all roads should be tolled, however reasonably. This should start with tolling trucks, because they are usually the ones who use all kinds of tricks to avoid toll roads.


----------



## mcarling

rheintram said:


> I agree that all roads should be tolled, however reasonably. This should start with tolling trucks, because they are usually the ones who use all kinds of tricks to avoid toll roads.


Trucks also cause nearly all the wear and tear to the roads.


----------



## Bad_Hafen

rheintram said:


> I agree that all roads should be tolled, however reasonably.


:nuts:



mcarling said:


> In my opinion, vignettes should be required for all roads, not just motorways. Giving drivers an economic incentive to use local roads rather than motorways is economically and environmentally perverse.
> 
> With the EU funding so much road construction, I would not oppose EU-level vignettes. However, an extra tax on fuel would be even more efficient than electronic vignettes.


:nuts::nuts:


----------



## Corvinus

A bottleneck: Pfändertunnel (2 x 1 lane) as part of Rheintalautobahn
Images northbound from Feldkirch in direction of the German border

1. Before the tunnel - 3 lanes' traffic merges into one









2. The tunnel









3. Entering it...









Landscape around Feldkirch is impressive though


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The second Pfänder Tunnel tube will be put into service next year, after which the existing tube will be renovated. Full 2x2 capacity will be available from 2013 onwards.


----------



## Road_UK

Nobody noticed the bottleneck at Innsbruck yet? (70 km from where I live) 

They've built a new tunnel coming from Innsbruck Ost heading towards Italy/Bregenz. It's open now, but traffic still has to go through this tunnel both ways. They're doing something else now going Kufstein bound, not sure if they're building another tunnel or not. 

Also, Austria is in a process of changing its roadsigns. They are trying to make it more German style (just like they are doing in the Netherlands now) but somehow it's not really working, and still look just as twisted as it did before..... and confusing!


----------



## bogdymol

Road_UK said:


> Nobody noticed the bottleneck at Innsbruck yet? (70 km from where I live)
> 
> They've built a new tunnel coming from Innsbruck Ost heading towards Italy/Bregenz. It's open now, but traffic still has to go through this tunnel both ways. They're doing something else now going Kufstein bound, not sure if they're building another tunnel or not.
> 
> Also, Austria is in a process of changing its roadsigns. They are trying to make it more German style (just like they are doing in the Netherlands now) but somehow it's not really working, and still look just as twisted as it did before..... and confusing!


This one? 

































I drove through that one this winter. It was crowded but the traffic was moving....


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I hate this tunnel. I drive through very often on my way to Italy, and it seems to me that works never progress. I was there for the first time on january 2010 and I remember it just the way it is now... I hope I remember wrong.


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I hate this tunnel. I drive through very often on my way to Italy, and it seems to me that works never progress. I was there for the first time on january 2010 and I remember it just the way it is now... I hope I remember wrong.


You do. That tunnel only opened last winter, but the roadworks have been there for years now. Same as the ones on the Brenner road. They are building new tunnels there, linking Austria with Italy without having to go on high altitudes.....

They've now completed roadworks at Wörgl both ways, and are now starting at Kufstein. These are cross-border roadworks, as new surfacing are due to take place all the way to Rosenheim.


----------



## Road_UK

Great pictures by the way, thank you


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> You do. That tunnel only opened last winter, but the roadworks have been there for years now.


Then probably I remember the roadworks and the queues...



> Same as the ones on the Brenner road. They are building new tunnels there, linking Austria with Italy without having to go on high altitudes.....


Do you mean the Autobahn or the normal road?


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> Do you mean the Autobahn or the normal road?


Autobahn....


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Then probably I'm missing something. Are you saying that on Austrian Brennerautobahn they are building new tunnels to avoid going to high altitudes? I don't see how this is possible without reconstructing the whole road. Besides, you HAVE to go to high altitudes because you have to reach Brennerpass...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is no such project. They are building a noise tunnel at Innsbruck-Amras.


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## g.spinoza

^^ I know, this is the tunnel we were talking about and whose pictures were posted.


----------



## -Pino-

Road_UK said:


> Also, Austria is in a process of changing its roadsigns. They are trying to make it more German style (just like they are doing in the Netherlands now) but somehow it's not really working, and still look just as twisted as it did before..... and confusing!


What are they changing? They only thing that I have seen so far is the use of the TERN typeface instead of the 1970s DIN Mittelschrift.

My problem with Austrian signage has never really been in the system, but in its execution. Complete lack of consistency, motorway signs that are simply too small and too full. You can actually create something very decent out of the existing Austrian standards if only there was a refocus on content. Enlarge the signs, use the German fontface (not only current DIN, but also increased spacing and larger size), un-cram the gantry signs and the white signs in the approach of an exit and be consistent.


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Then probably I'm missing something. Are you saying that on Austrian Brennerautobahn they are building new tunnels to avoid going to high altitudes? I don't see how this is possible without reconstructing the whole road. Besides, you HAVE to go to high altitudes because you have to reach Brennerpass...


I've just looked it up, the tunnel I was talking about is for railway traffic only...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenner_Base_Tunnel


----------



## Road_UK

-Pino- said:


> What are they changing? They only thing that I have seen so far is the use of the TERN typeface instead of the 1970s DIN Mittelschrift.
> 
> My problem with Austrian signage has never really been in the system, but in its execution. Complete lack of consistency, motorway signs that are simply too small and too full. You can actually create something very decent out of the existing Austrian standards if only there was a refocus on content. Enlarge the signs, use the German fontface (not only current DIN, but also increased spacing and larger size), un-cram the gantry signs and the white signs in the approach of an exit and be consistent.


They are using German style script, but the letter are too far out, which gives it a whole new messy look. Arrows have improved. Instead of the long thin arrows, which took up half of the sign, they are now using the shorter ones, like they have in Germany....


----------



## -Pino-

^^ Interesting. Would be great to see some pictures.


----------



## Road_UK

-Pino- said:


> ^^ Interesting. Would be great to see some pictures.


I'll make some next time I'm passing. They are already there on the A1 between Salzburg and Linz and on the A12 Inntall Autobahn near Worgl.

Also here in the Zillertal they are changing the local white signs. They are actually not all that bad, looks a bit more modern. After all we're not in Eastern Europe or Belgium, and we ought to know better :lol:


----------



## Road_UK

Found some pictures:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ralf_herrmann/5154270870/in/set-72157603678544449

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ralf_herrmann/5154271610/in/set-72157603678544449


----------



## bogdymol

Here are some pictures taken by myself in Febrary this year on A1 Wien - Salzburg motorway showing the signage:
































































Sorry if some of the pictures are not very clear, but the weather was horrible most of the time.

Here are 2 videos showing almost all A1 motorway (from A21 to the German border):











I've just found 2 more picture taken in the other direction:


----------



## Road_UK

Yes, these are the old ones, they have changed them at around april. New signs start at or around Salzburg Airport exit.


----------



## -Pino-

Those newer signs posted use TERN, but the German typeface. I suspect that it is still "same old" Austrian signage rather than an attempt to renew. With the possible exception of the shorter arrows, wich I think are good, the differences compared to old appear due to inconsistency rather than renewal. But that's nothing new either: just spot the many differences between the gantry signs posted by bogdymol.


----------



## bogdymol

On A1 the signs were quite fine from my point of view. The big problem is around Wien. Pictures of roadsigns while driving on A4 - A23 - A2 - A21 - A1:























































On many signs there is are too many informations that you can't process fast enough while driving with high speed.


----------



## bogdymol

Here are some pictures made around Wien during the return trip (route: A1 - A21 - S1 - A4)



























^^ I like how they wrote A2 and S1 on the noise barriers.


----------



## g.spinoza

I agree, there are too many information to process. I wonder why put Budapest: if the route to Budapest pass through Wien, then just put Wien and from there put the nearest big city (Bratislava, maybe)


----------



## bogdymol

It seems that this evening I'm flooding this thread with pictures. On A13 near Innsbruck I noticed that there were many escape lanes for trucks:


----------



## g.spinoza

Brennerautobahn has indeed quite steep slopes (more than my 1.4 diesel car likes). In Italian Brennerautobahn there are just 2 escape lanes, one near Vipiteno (which is quite useless, because by then the road is almost flat) and another one between Vipiteno and Colle Isarco, i think.


----------



## bogdymol

Indeed, the slope is quite steep. *6%*:










In the Romanian construction code the maximum alowed slope for a motorway is 4%.

I also had some problems with my tiny 1.5 diesel engine while going up on A13.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I never had such problems with my 1.5 diesel. There are even some Autobahn sections with 7 - 8% grades in Germany.


----------



## g.spinoza

In Italy Autostrade have generally slopes less than 4%, even if few exceptions exist. From Vipiteno to Brennero maximum slope is 3.8%, while average between Bolzano and Brennero is 1.4%.
By Italian laws, speed limits for a 6% slope are less than 80 km/h...


----------



## hofburg

great pics, bogdymol


----------



## bogdymol

hofburg said:


> great pics, bogdymol


Thank you


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Is that it? Judging by the reputation of Austrian signage I was expecting it to be way worse than that.

Thanks bogdymol


----------



## hofburg

A2, A10


Salzburg - Berlin 023 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 024 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr

weird, because I came from Italien 

Salzburg - Berlin 026 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 027 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 028 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 030 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 031 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 033 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 034 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 035 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 036 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 037 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 038 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 039 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Salzburg - Berlin 040 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Pics won't show on my computer 

You also posted in Italian thread but I can't see the pictures  Refreshing dosen't help.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Flickr blocked SSC once again.


----------



## bogdymol

Use Picasa as I do


----------



## cinxxx

Stupid Flickr.
I tried using Picasa, but for some reason the pictures don't always show, maye there is some time access limitation or some sort.


----------



## bogdymol

Most of the time they show as they should be here, but if not, refreshing the page does the job.


----------



## CNGL

I can see the pics. I don't know why you no.


----------



## Verso

bogdymol said:


> Believe me, it's not photoshopped. I was driving the car and I asked my father to take this picture for me (and for SSC ). You can also see the sign in this video @11:27


I think it says SLO on all other signs, so I'm not sure what they were thinking by that sign. 



bogdymol said:


> And SG is Singapore


But those are 2-letter codes, like IT instead of I for Italy, or SI instead of SLO for Slovenia. I think these are correct.


----------



## CNGL

So the SG thing doesn't mean nothing. I like to see unofficial codes, the best one I saw was SVM. But that is off-topic.


----------



## Verso

hofburg said:


> weird, because I came from Italien
> 
> Salzburg - Berlin 026 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


Where exactly is that (link)?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Any plan to double this series of tunnels on the A9? The second Bosruck tunnel is planned for 2015-2020, but it seems useless alone.


----------



## hofburg

Verso said:


> Where exactly is that (link)?


eh, stupid flickr. 

the sign is for the road to the right.  it just seems to be on our road.
http://maps.google.si/maps?saddr=46...=0.004038,0.010568&mra=mift&mrsp=0&sz=17&z=17

I will try to upload to picasa. anyway I think you can see photos here. http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/collections/


----------



## Verso

^^ That was tricky. The signs aren't on your road at all, but on the road coming from Karawankentunnel.


----------



## ABRob

Coccodrillo said:


> Any plan to double this series of tunnels on the A9? The second Bosruck tunnel is planned for 2015-2020, but it seems useless alone.


Yes, it's planned for 2015-2019.
EDIT: But the second Bosruck tunnel is planned until 2015.


----------



## veteran

*Tauern Autobahn A10*, Werfen, Helbersbergtunnel









*Süd Autobahn A2*, Thörl-Maglern/Coccau (A/I)









*Süd Autobahn A2*, Raststation Pack, Kärnten


----------



## London Ig

Hi all; 

I'm driving through Austria en route Croatia next week; the last time waited forever at the Tauerntunnel [due road works] Can anyone confirm it's open both ways now?

Thanks!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, they opened the second tube on June 30th. No traffic congestion yet in the past 2 weekends.


----------



## bozata90

I can confirm too - it is a very smooth and nice ride. Sadly, I did not bring my camera with me...


----------



## veteran

*Pyhrn Autobahn A9*
Traboch, Steiermark (exit 129)









Trieben, Steiermark (exit 86).









*Ennstal Straße, B320*
Stainach bypass









*Salzkammergut Straße, B145*
Near by crossing with road to Unterburg, Pürgg-Trautenfels









Near by Pichl-Kainisch


----------



## rheintram

The latest plan to connect Austrian and Swiss motorway network:








red = proposed new connection "Z"
red dotted = underground sections
orange = option "E" which is not viable because it would harm a Natura 2000 area
crossed out red = existing road network which would be closed
green area = Natura 2000 area

I don't know what people think who come up with these plans. Maybe "How can we screw as many residential areas as possible"? There are far more logical spots where u can connect the two networks. Keep in mind this is mainly for trucks! Anyways it is probably not going to happen.


----------



## keber

rheintram said:


> I don't know what people think who come up with these plans.


Because, sadly, Natura 2000 is more important than people.


----------



## rheintram

keber said:


> Because, sadly, Natura 2000 is more important than people.


With this plan the problem is not Natura 2000, the problem is that people would be screwed over. There would be a location next to Mäder, where there are neither people nor a nature reservation. Not a single tunnel would be needed.

Look at this: http://maps.google.at/maps?q=Höchst...455719,9.658248&spn=0.007922,0.01929&t=h&z=16

it's the part where that "Z" road would go right through the neighborhood. Two houses would even have to be demolished. In the bottom you can already see the interchange to which it would aim.

this is the location at Mäder:
http://maps.google.at/maps?q=Mäder&...4189,9.656521&sspn=0.003961,0.009645&t=h&z=14


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Woudn't it be more logical to make it here (almost straight line between A and B)?


----------



## rheintram

Not really because that's a) a longer distance than north of Mäder and b) further south. Keep in mind that this would be mostly for trucks. People who just want to cross from Germany to Switzerland usually avoid the motorway, because they would need to pay. From next year on a daily toll sticker will NOT be available anymore and they would have to pay again for a whole week (really flawed system). Hence the only kind of relief inside the towns will be from trucks, because these can be forced to cross the border at a certain point.


----------



## keber

I would think that Switzerland wants connection to be as north as possible, which is pretty logical because of Germany-Switzerland traffic.


----------



## rheintram

keber said:


> I would think that Switzerland wants connection to be as north as possible, which is pretty logical because of Germany-Switzerland traffic.


Read what I wrote. I understand Switzerland, but already the A15 and the S18 project, which would go right there failed! Natura 2000 was only the last drop that spilled the glass for S18. There were tons of other problems. I don't understand why they insist on a corridor that cannot be realized for over 30 years already, when there is a much cheaper and doable solution in sight.


----------



## Verso

Such a southern variant doesn't seem appropriate to me. What about north of Natura 2000? And if there're urban areas, build tunnels under them.


----------



## Euroboyy

Why they didn't built a motorway connection between A and CH for so many years??


----------



## Road_UK

Euroboyy said:


> Why they didn't built a motorway connection between A and CH for so many years??


Probably not enough room, with Liechtenstein in the south and the urban areas of Feldkirch and Bregenz further north followed by Lake Konstanz. But coming from Innsbruck and getting off at Hohehems it's only a five minute drive onto the Swiss motorway towards St Gallen. And it's a nice change of pace as well.


----------



## Road_UK

I can't really see why they have to make it easier for trucks anyway. They are trying to keep mass freight traffic out of the alps. Freight traffic between Switzerland and Vorarlberg and Tirol are not all that high anyway, and the A14 Rheintal Autobahn functions as a corridor. That's fine, because through traffic to Germany out of Switzerland is blocked by a bloody big lake, so traffic HAS to go through Austria. But dedicated traffic for the St Gallen region only. Coming back or out of Germany there are the Basel and Schaffhausen options, coming out of Italy there is the Como-Chiasso option. So the question is: is it really necessary to upset a lot of local residents when the drive from motorway to motorway takes a mere 5 minutes anyway at Hohehems. Most freight traffic goes through Lauterach / St Margareten - so if they want to clog that up with freight traffic, then there are still plenty of other options to cross that border.


----------



## rheintram

Most freight traffic actually has to leave A14 at Dornbirn South, then goes via Lustenau to Au (CH) where it enters the motorway again.


----------



## g.spinoza

Personal rant against ASFINAG. It's unbelievable that on August 13th, Friday, just north of the Pfandertunnel near Bregenz, they reduced the carriageway from 3 lanes (2 regular + 1 acceleration lane) to 1 LANE. Endless queue. Had to exit at Hörbranz, enter Bregenz and take the E60 on my way to Konstanz. Madness.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

But the Pfänder Tunnel is already 1 lane per direction. The 2x2 section is only 1 km long before you reach the German border. Wouldn't it be a mess south of the Pfänder Tunnel as well?


----------



## Road_UK

It is always a mess there. All OE3 does is report the jams coming in and out of Germany.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> But the Pfänder Tunnel is already 1 lane per direction. The 2x2 section is only 1 km long before you reach the German border. Wouldn't it be a mess south of the Pfänder Tunnel as well?


Possibly, but at least you would give more time to merge.


----------



## Road_UK

A nice event that happened here in Tirol a few months ago. Right here in the beautiful Ziller Valley (exit Zillertal on the A12 between Woergl and Innsbruck) a guy not fully right in the mind stole a tractor, which was limited to 15 km/h. He drove out of the valley from Fuegen, and onto the A12 motorway heading towards Kufstein. Police were chasing him (!) for a good 15 km, before they finally stopped him between Kramsach and Woergl by shooting the tyres. It appeared that the man confessed stealing the tractor, and he was on his way to Vienna on it - a good 450 km away. If he sticked with the motorway, he would have gone through Germany as well.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ How difficult is to stop a tractor on a motorway? I guess cops would only want to check his vignette


----------



## -Pino-

^^ Depends on the cops' own means of transport I guess ... :angel1:


----------



## Schwarzpunkt

*E 66 - Austrian section*

previous section:


Schwarzpunkt said:


> Hungarian section


map



1. H Border Heiligenkreuz









2.









3.









4.









5. Welcome in Steiermark :nuts: 









6. A2 interchange


----------



## Schwarzpunkt

7. A2









8.









9. Big city, big font 









10.interchange A2 X A9









11. I have never seen in Austria signs with arrows pointing down









12.









13.









14.









15. down towards the Drava River









16.









17. Interchange A2 X (A10 - A11)


----------



## Verso

Awesome castle. I was there some 15 years ago.


----------



## bogdymol

Verso said:


> Awesome castle. I was there some 15 years ago.


Indeed, it's an awesome castle. I've posted more pictures with the castle here (splitted into 3 posts).


----------



## panda80

KingNick said:


> Guess that U stands for Umleitung. German for detour.


Yes, it's Umleitung. If there is an accident and the motorway is not drivable anymore, you can follow these U signs for Wien or Graz. These signs will lead you to the next motorway access interchange, in order to bypass the point where the motorway is blocked.


----------



## keber

bogdymol started with S37, I'll continue with it. This May I traveled from Wien to Slovenia on S6-S36-S37 route to see alternative (not advisable).

1 - S36 begins as continuation of S6 after interchange with A9 at Sankt Michael.









2 - After pretty busy S6 S36 gets pretty empty.









3 - S36 has normal motorway parameters.









4 - Signs have pretty inconsistent form. 









5 - Soon Gurktaler Alps are seen (I think) 









6 - Mountains / Hills on the border of Steiermark and Kärnten from rest station (gasoline here was cheaper than on A-roads).









7 - Traffic is low but with quite some trucks 









8 - It is really nice to see surroundings because there are not a lot of sound barriers.









9 - Here goes another alternative (even faster) from Wien to Klagenfurt.









10 - It was early afternoon.









11 - Judenburg is last town on S36.









12 - After just 38 km S36 ends here









13 - and continues as a normal Bundesstrasse 317 (can be still signed as S36 though)









14 - Because of many villages and towns overtaking is pretty limited.









15 - There are some short 1+2 sections









16 - or even 2+2


----------



## keber

17 - Town of Unzmarkt









18 - Short tunnel before Schleifling









19 - Schleifling, intersection with Bundesstrasse 96 which leads to A10, also a border between S36 and S37. Intersection and signage is a bit confusing.









20 - After Schleifling finally some overtaking becomes possible on 2+1 sections. There is a lot of truck traffic.









21 - Narrow passage









22 - "No S37" banner









23 - Through gorges it becomes pretty slow.









24 - 30 km/h limit through town center of Neumarkt in der Steiermark









25 - about 400 m long 2+2 section









26 - another gorge









27 - end of Steiermark, beggining of Kärnten - and better road too!









28 - Schnellstrasse will begin now (at Friesach).









29 - 2+2 configuration for several kilometers









30 - After that exit 2+2 configuration ends but as I read it will start construction in near future (about 3 km remains to be upgraded here).


----------



## keber

31 - Strange to see normal intersection accompanied with Schnellstrasse exit numbers.









32 - And here too.









33 - Tractors.









34 - From here 2+2 Schnellstrasse up to Klagenfurt (about 30 km).









35 - Some parts have narrower lanes









36 - other have normal width.









37 - After Hunnenbrunn exit on S37 vignette is obligatory.









38 - Center divider is painted green.









39 - Truck toll receivers









40 - Duke's Chair beside Schnellstrasse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke's_Chair









41 - More traffic before Klagenfurt (still 5 km)









42 - Going to center of the city or onto A2









43 - Only 1+1 until A2









44 - Traffic light on ramp entering A2.


----------



## cinxxx

Very nice non motorway reportage :cheers2:.

My parents when returning home from Germany, were mislead by the GPS through Passau and all the way on the road besides the Danube to Linz, because from some reason, it took them on toll free roads. After Linz, they corrected the problem and drove on the motorway.


----------



## panda80

cinxxx said:


> Very nice non motorway reportage :cheers2:.
> 
> My parents when returning home from Germany, were mislead by the GPS through Passau and all the way on the road besides the Danube to Linz, because from some reason, it took them on toll free roads. After Linz, they corrected the problem and drove on the motorway.


I also drove between Passau and Linz on that road near the Danube (not being misleaded by a GPS, I just wanted to drive on that bundesstrasse) and I can say they lost nothing by not driving on the motorway, the river bank road being quite spectacular.


----------



## il brutto

keber said:


> 31 - Strange to see normal intersection accompanied with Schnellstrasse exit numbers.


Google got confused as well  The whole S37 is named Klagenfurter Schnellstraße. S36 at least has both names on Schleifling-Judenburg section (Friesacher Bundesstraße and Murtal Schnellstraße).


----------



## hofburg

nice photos. Klagenfurter Schnellstrasse is sometimes (when without median, and when 1+1) worse than Klagenfurter Strasse in Ljubljana :lol:


----------



## panda80

Now I will post another mostly non-motorway photo report from Austria.
That's the route I took from Bad Hofgastein to the hungarian border at Nickelsdorf:


----------



## panda80

1. Between Huttau and Niederfritz, on 99 national road:









2.









3.









4. 166 national road between Niederfritz and Abtenau:









6. Under A10 motorway:









7. 









8.


----------



## panda80

9. Going towards Abtenau on 166 bundesstrasse:









10.









11.









12.









13.









14.









15.









16.


----------



## panda80

17. 166 national road between Abtenau and Bad Goisern:









18.









19.









20.









21.









22.









23.


----------



## panda80

24. Gschutt alpine pass:









25. Descending towards Halstatter see and Bad Goisern:









26.









27.









28.
A little detour to the upper Gosau valley. Dachstein massif can be seen in the background:









29.









30.









31.









32.


----------



## panda80

33. Back to Gosau:









34. 16km to Bad Goisern:









35.









36.









37. Near Bad Goisern, we turn right for Bad Aussee, Liezen:









38. Now we are on 145 national road:









39.


----------



## panda80

40. climbing Potschen alpine pass:









41.









42.









43.









44. Here is the pass:


----------



## radi6404

Picture 32 is incredible


----------



## panda80

radi6404 said:


> Picture 32 is incredible


Yes, that's the Dachstein massif, one of the most spectacular in the Alps. There are no roadworks there,the space on the left is reserved for the greatest mountain bike race in Austria, Salzkammergut Trophy,taking place on that Saturday.


----------



## panda80

45. Going down to Bad Aussee:









46.









47.









48. Nice winding road:









49.









50.


----------



## panda80

51. Bad Aussee:









52.









53.









54. Between Bad Aussee and Liezen:









55.









56.


----------



## panda80

57. Beginning of a "only for vehicles" section of road:









58.









59.









60.


----------



## hofburg

nice photos and interesting route. I see Austria has quite a few these 'motor' roads.


----------



## panda80

Continuing the photo report. 

61. On 145 national road towards Liezen:









62.









63.









64. Grimming mountain on the right:









65. Some works ahead:









66.


----------



## panda80

hofburg said:


> nice photos and interesting route. I see Austria has quite a few these 'motor' roads.


Thanks .Yes, these sections are mostly on small towns or villages bypass by a national quite important road.


----------



## panda80

67. 1+2 section:









68.









69. Tunnel:









70.









71. Intersection with national road 320:









72.









73. Now we continue our trip on road 320, to Liezen and A9:









74.


----------



## panda80

75. Another section of road only for vehicles:









76.









77.









78. End of the short section:









79.









80.









81. We go towards Graz:









82. Entering Liezen:


----------



## panda80

83. First sign of the motorway:









84. Commercial area:









85. Another sign for A9:









86. New pavement as we approach the motorway:









87. 2+2:









88. And we are on motorway:









89. Joining A9:


----------



## panda80

90. On A9 towards Graz:









91.









92.









93.









94.









95.









96.









97.









98.









99.









100.









101.


----------



## panda80

102. Some works ahead:









103. Tunnel Wald, over 2 km long:









104. Rest area:









105. Exit for Mautern:









106.









108. 10 minutes to St. Michael interchange, with S6 and S36:









109.


----------



## panda80

110. Another rest area:









111. Very good pavement:









112.









113.









114.









115. We take S6 from here:









116.









117.









118.


----------



## panda80

119. On S6 towards Wien:









120.









121.









122.









123. 3 lanes uphill:









124. 100km/h speed limit around tunnels:









125. S6 was not at all congested, it was a nice Saturday evening:









126.









127.


----------



## panda80

128. Interchange with S35, that goes to Graz, following the Mur river valley:









129. We continue on S6:









130. Another 3 lanes uphill section:









131. Rest area Kapfenberg:









132. Still on S6:









133.









134. Very precise distance sign:


----------



## panda80

135. S6 winding its way up Murz river valley:









136.









137. Another rest area:









138. First exit for Murzzuschlag:









139. A few long tunnels in the Semmering pass area:









140.









141.









142.









143.









144.









145.


----------



## panda80

146. We are already on the downhill from Semmering towards A2:









147.









148. Now we join A2 direction north:









149.









150. We drive on A2 for just 9km, to Wiener Neustadt interchange:









151. A2 is 3+3 on this section:









152. Wiener Neustadt interchange. We head towards Eisenstadt and hungarian border. This is a shortcut for A2-S1-A4 route to Nickelsdorf.


----------



## panda80

153. On S4:









154.









155.









156.









157.









From now on it was imposible to make photos, as it was darker and darker. That's all, I hope you liked it.


----------



## Verso

panda80 said:


> 149.


Nice photos. What's "TEM"?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Trans-European Motorway. Apparently, there are not enough road numbers on signs.


----------



## sotonsi

The TEM, of course, is a network, rather than simply one motorway (though wikipedia has it as E80 - which doesn't go through Austria). Which makes it meaningless.


----------



## Verso

Jesus.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think they should sign corridors and TEN-T networks as well. And maybe extend Asian Highways into Europe.


----------



## x-type

i have never realized these narrow shoulders at A9.

TEM :facepalm:


----------



## keber

Yesterday Slovenian transport minister and Carinthian governor discussed about second tube of Karawankentunnel. They agreed that second *traffic *tube should be built until 2019 and not only rescue tube (which would be about twice cheaper). 
Now only Austrian government in Wien must be persuaded because it is against second traffic tube.


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Here is a video with *Karawanken tunnel* recorded one month ago:





map
wiki

Bonus: Karawanken autobahn (A11) in Austria:





map


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://www.asfinag.at/presse?p_p_id...ournalArticlesPress_INSTANCE_y5Qq_version=1.0

A section control went operation in the Plabutschtunnel in the A9 near Graz. The speed limit is 100 km/h. It's the longest twin-tube tunnel of the Alps.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The final record of decision for the S1 on the east side of Wien (Vienna) will be put to public consultation tomorrow. A more detailed construction planning is also available. Unfortunately, the planning for the 8.8 km long Lobau Tunnel is somewhat disappointing, it won't be ready until the year 2025, a delay of 11 years developed in the past 18 months.


----------



## european_driver

When will a construction of A5 (Nord Autobahn) to Czech Border in Mikulov start according to present schedule (Sorry if this question appeared some pages ago)?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Also delayed, the opening date used to be 2013, but is now 2016/2017.


----------



## european_driver

^^ Thanks! Will Czechs plans build expressway connection (R52) from Pohorelice to Mikulov with this motorway nearby? If yes, what is schedule?


----------



## mcarling

european_driver said:


> Will Czechs plans build expressway connection (R52) from Pohorelice to Mikulov with this motorway nearby?


This sort of project is likely to be generously funded by the EU, especially once Austria have begun construction of the final phase on the Austrian side.



european_driver said:


> If yes, what is schedule?


I think we'll have to wait to see what the EU decide on funding for 2014-2020. Until then, I would not put any faith in planned dates.


----------



## KingNick

Lobau Tunnel is a big waste of money. EUR 1.4 billion now will equal EUR 3 billion once the tunnel is built. Also the major bottleneck on Vienna's Autobahn will still be there - Intersection A23/A22.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Lobau Tunnel will considerably more useful in terms of expenditure / usage than any long road tunnel in the Alps. It will cost € 1.4 billion but 60 000 vehicles will use it every day, which is far more than any Alpine tunnel.

Newspaper comments were also funny, traffic on the Tauern Autobahn increased by 27% during the summer period. They called it a "traffic avalanche". You can see journalists these days have no clue about traffic or statistics. While 27% is a large percentage, it's a volume of only 8 000 vehicles, which is very small. 27 000 vehicles per day is hardly worth the qualification of a "traffic avalanche", in fact it would qualify as a quiet motorway.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Umweltverträglichkeits-prüfung (record of decision with environmental impact assessment) can be viewed online:

http://www.bmvit.gv.at/verkehr/strasse/autostrasse/s1/verfahren/schwechat_suessenbrunn/index.html

Most interesting is this PDF:
http://www.bmvit.gv.at/verkehr/stra...en/schwechat_suessenbrunn/kundmachung/uve.pdf

The new tunnel will feature 2x2 lanes. 

Here are the 2025 traffic volumes:


----------



## rower2000

ChrisZwolle said:


> Newspaper comments were also funny, traffic on the Tauern Autobahn increased by 27% during the summer period. They called it a "traffic avalanche". You can see journalists these days have no clue about traffic or statistics. While 27% is a large percentage, it's a volume of only 8 000 vehicles, which is very small. 27 000 vehicles per day is hardly worth the qualification of a "traffic avalanche", in fact it would qualify as a quiet motorway.


The numbers were wrong too, coming from VCÖ - a notoriously anti-car traffic organization. The increase from Aug 2010 to Aug 2011 was actually 14%/4000 AADT, coupled with a decrease on A9, a detour for jams on A10, by 9%/2000 AADT, with the numbers from other detours (B99, B108, car transport via the Tauern train tunnel) not available. I'd take a bet that at least 80% of the increase is caused by traffic relocated from former detours due to the opening of the 2nd Tauern tube - actually reducing unnecessarily driven kilometers.


----------



## rower2000

ChrisZwolle said:


> Lobau Tunnel will considerably more useful in terms of expenditure / usage than any long road tunnel in the Alps. It will cost € 1.4 billion but 60 000 vehicles will use it every day, which is far more than any Alpine tunnel.


However, the location of the tunnel is pure stupid politics. With a more westerly route, the tunnel could have been built with 2 to 3 km length instead of the now needed 8 km, the river crossing could have been made as a bridge and the affected part of the national park would have been much smaller.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I agree. The tunnel is unnecessary long. I don't understand how they ever approved a big refinery there by the way.


----------



## rower2000

ChrisZwolle said:


> I agree. The tunnel is unnecessary long. I don't understand how they ever approved a big refinery there by the way.


I assume you don't mean the refinery on the South side of A4, but rather the oil storage facility right in the middle of the national park. This and the oil port were built in 1938 under NS administration - and they didn't care for environmental impact after all.


----------



## radi6404

About the Karavankel Tunnel, I think the second tube is indeet needed, traffiflow would be less and less cars would be in one tube, which would make the tunnel safer then it is now. It does not have the best rating right now.


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> Lobau Tunnel will considerably more useful in terms of expenditure / usage than any long road tunnel in the Alps.


Actually this is not right comparison. Imagine how Italy would be accesed without those long tunnels and how expensive would be to transfer goods north<->south of Alps.
And it would be also interesting to see, how muchg would traffic rise with normal priced tolls for those tunnels. If Lobau tunnel would have for example 7 € toll, there wouldn't be even 6,000 AADT let alone 60,000.


----------



## x-type

is that really national park or only some nature reserve? (although for both it is really weird location due to both refineries)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube-Auen_National_Park


----------



## bogdymol

Few pictures from that short branch of A2 near Klagenfurt (map):


















^^ I don't understand why here the traffic goes as 1+1 when the second carriage was not used at all (it was closed with no reason)...


----------



## bogdymol

And few pics from A2 Klagenfurt - Villach:

Interesting exit:










3 layers of mountains ahead:










Approaching knotten Villach. Notice that this signs gives directions towards 3 countries:


----------



## bogdymol

Next pictures are from *Villacher Alpenstraße*, a mountain road:



















The toll was 13 €:














































On the way there are several parking lots where you can enjoy the view:



















Villach seen from above:


----------



## bogdymol

The parking lot from the top of the road:










Altitude: 1742 m










Relax area on the top:










Villach and Lake Ossiach:


----------



## bogdymol

Going back:





































Villach again:


----------



## Verso

bogdymol said:


> ^^ I don't understand why here the traffic goes as 1+1 when the second carriage was not used at all (it was closed with no reason)...











http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%BCd_Autobahn#Klagenfurt

Great pics of the _Villacher Alpenstraße_, I haven't driven there yet.


----------



## hofburg

nice pics. why is that road tolled? Villach seems to be quite large.


----------



## bogdymol

hofburg said:


> nice pics. why is that road tolled? Villach seems to be quite large.


Villacher Alpenstraße is toled because I think it's mantained by a private company. It dosen't mak a connection between 2 towns, so it's only for tourists that want to go up the mountain for the panorama and the fresh air.


----------



## rower2000

bogdymol said:


> ^^ I don't understand why here the traffic goes as 1+1 when the second carriage was not used at all (it was closed with no reason)...


That's a remnant from the original planning of A2. The motorway was originally planned to pass right through Klagenfurt and the part coming from the West into Klagenfurt was built rather early. The original plan was then, understandably, dumped in favor of the Northern bypass of Klagenfurt. As the original route between August-Jankitsch-Straße and Wörthersee exit leads through a pretty densely populated area and only acts as a feeder by now the second carriageway was closed and decommissioned for noise abatement and money savings. This was easily possible as the AADT on this stretch doesn't need four lanes


----------



## keber

But it seems that was done quite recently, Google Earth image still shows old alignment.


----------



## Luki_SL

^^It`s possible that the second carriege was closed due to poor surface. So it became 1+1.


----------



## rower2000

keber said:


> But it seems that was done quite recently, Google Earth image still shows old alignment.


I remember reading the press release quite recently (last year or so). The section from Wörthersee to Klagenfurt center was given to the state of Carinthia in 2002. According to wiki, the AADT on this feeder now under state administration is only around 10,000 cars/24 h so they decided to make it 1+1 and use the Southern carriageway as parking lot which was needed near the lake anyway. Thus, they got a parking lot without having to find new space and without making any drastic deteriorations in traffic flow.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I drove there in 2009, can't remember that setup...


----------



## Verso

^^ You left the motorway right before that (direction Loibl/SLO).


----------



## bogdymol

*More videos from me:*





map: http://g.co/maps/xgvt4





map: http://g.co/maps/4q2z3





map: http://g.co/maps/9mxfu


----------



## hofburg

bogdymol was on the top:


18102011165 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr

just before Tauern tunnel


19102011196 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


----------



## rheintram

That's a very odd setup in Klagenfurt indeed. It seems to stem from the fact that during the construction of A2 the plans were changed and this already finished part became obsolete or rather a feeder for the new A2. Hence the additional two lanes weren't needed anymore. It still looks quite odd though.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*S10 Unterweitersdorf - Freistadt*

The construction of S10 between Unterweitersdorf to Freistadt in Oberösterreich began yesterday. It will connect Linz and the Austrian motorway network towards the Czech Republic. The S10 features a number of tunnels, out of which the 4.4 km long Tunnel Götschka is the longest. This is due to a steep valley gradient which needs to be tunneled through to keep road grades within acceptable standards. It is currently the largest new motorway project in all of Austria.


----------



## JackFrost

ChrisZwolle said:


> *S10 Unterweitersdorf - Freistadt*
> 
> The construction of S10 between Unterweitersdorf to Freistadt in Oberösterreich began yesterday. It will connect Linz and the Austrian motorway network towards the Czech Republic. The S10 features a number of tunnels, out of which the 4.4 km long Tunnel Götschka is the longest. This is due to a steep valley gradient which needs to be tunneled through to keep road grades within acceptable standards. It is currently the largest new motorway project in all of Austria.


why dont they call it A7???


----------



## ChrisZwolle

panda80 said:


> It's odd that officially works started just now. I was there about 1 year ago and there were some earth works on S10 and also some informing panels.


Apparently it was only the construction of the Freistadt bypass. The rest is already U/C.


----------



## rheintram

The difference between Autobahn and Schnellstraße is that the first fully adhere to Autobahn-standards as defined by the Austrian traffic regulation (Straßenverkehrsordnung) and the second don't necessarily do. However, Schnellstraßen may be Autobahnen as defined by the law. 

Schnellstraße is not a legal road category in its own right, it is only one of two types of federal streets in Austria. All other roads are owned by the provincial states or municipalities.

These days virtually all Schnellstraßen are built like Autobahnen, however you may have sections with smaller diameters or radii. Generally speaking many S streets are less homogenous than full Autobahns. This can be best seen with S16 Arlbergschnellstraße which changes its diameter and layout quite often. At some point it looks like a full Autobahn, at others it looks like a normal country road.

So yes, it is confusing indeed.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The prices of the 2012 vignettes are increased at inflation rate;

2011 / 2012

10-day vignette: € 7,90 > € 8,00
2-month vignette: € 23,00 > € 23,40
1-year vignette: € 76,50 > € 77,80


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A memorandum has been signed for the construction of a second Karawanken Tunnel tube on A11 at the Slovenian border:

http://www.ots.at/presseaussendung/...a-zu-zweiter-vollroehre-des-karawankentunnels

It will be a full traffic tube, not a safety tube. A safety tube would cost € 93 million, a second tube € 236 million, but a later expansion of the safety tube to a second tube would cost € 413 million, so it's cheaper to do it right at once. 

The current tunnel needs a renovation in 2019. It's common in Austria to construct a second tube and then renovate the existing tube. Maybe that's how it will work with the Karawanken Tunnel as well. This leaves us until 2014/2015 until a second tube has to be constructed.


----------



## PLH

Isn't the emergency tube still required? Or 2x2 tunnels don't need one?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't think it's necessary if you can reach the other tube. In case of an incident, traffic will be stopped in both tubes so people can go from one tube to the other safely.


----------



## mcarling

http://noe.orf.at/news/stories/2511819/

Construction of the A5 North Autobahn from Schrick to Poysbrunn has been approved. Construction is planned to start in 2013 and complete in 2016.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> A memorandum has been signed for the construction of a second Karawanken Tunnel tube on A11 at the Slovenian border:
> 
> http://www.ots.at/presseaussendung/...a-zu-zweiter-vollroehre-des-karawankentunnels
> 
> It will be a full traffic tube, not a safety tube. A safety tube would cost € 93 million, a second tube € 236 million, but a later expansion of the safety tube to a second tube would cost € 413 million, so it's cheaper to do it right at once.
> 
> The current tunnel needs a renovation in 2019. It's common in Austria to construct a second tube and then renovate the existing tube. Maybe that's how it will work with the Karawanken Tunnel as well. This leaves us until 2014/2015 until a second tube has to be constructed.


That's just a memorandum between Slovenia and Austrian Carinthia (Kärnten). The last word will have Vienna.


----------



## il brutto

^^ Yeah, this doesn't mean much yet. And no, emergency tube isn't needed if the two traffic tubes are linked.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I read they weren't going to build it because of low traffic...


----------



## il brutto

That's what Austrian govt says, but they have to reach an agreement with Slovenia who wants full traffic tube, so there's no final word yet.


----------



## keber

PLH said:


> Isn't the emergency tube still required? Or 2x2 tunnels don't need one?


In tunnels you always need means for escape. That could be service tube, other traffic tube or emergency exits to the safe place / surface. Therefore additional traffic tube works like a service tunnel.

About future of Karawanken tunnel: in 2019 it must be complemented with new tube, what sort will be depends mostly on Austrian side. The problem here is lack of traffic which averages about 7000 AADT, outside of holiday months traffic count can be even below 1000 vehicles per day (this is normal non-holiday daily traffic). However on some heavy holiday weekends it can reach almost 30,000.

Reconstruction of existing tube is needed because geology of Karawanken mountain range is more demanding than expected so most damaged sections of tunnel lining and tunnel are being renewed and fortified part by part but this process is too slow if you want to maintain at least alternating one way traffic.

Geology is now well known and I don't understand why saving 140 million € in short term if you will profit much more in long term especially in case of some extreme situation (example fire) which would demand longer closure of one tube. It is interesting to know that second tube will probably have to be more distant to original tube than it was foreseen (and even partially constructed) 20 years ago.

Also I'm sure that there would be much more traffic if tolls were lower or especially if the tolls would be abolished and vignettes would be used instead.


----------



## 3naranze

http://www.rettungsgasse.com/Content/_uploads/rettungsgasse/sputter/2011/November/5654c11f-97e9-4b6a-ad5f-fb34381e3a99/RG-InfofolderAllgemein-UK.pdf
I agree, but why when you have hard-shoulder?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are probably too many places where there is no shoulder or where the shoulder is blocked. The Austrians build fairly narrow shoulders.


----------



## 3naranze

I've got the flyer at a service station.
I guess it will be a problem to italian way of driving: serious fines in italy if you stay on hard-shoulder lane (emergency lane in italy).


----------



## bewu1

mcarling said:


> http://noe.orf.at/news/stories/2511819/
> 
> Construction of the A5 North Autobahn from Schrick to Poysbrunn has been approved. Construction is planned to start in 2013 and complete in 2016.


Great news. See plan http://www.asfinag.at/strassennetz/...ArticlesDevelopment_INSTANCE_7vB9_version=1.0


----------



## mcarling

^^
Is the section of the R52 in CZ from Perná to the AT border near Drasenhofen still scheduled to open in 2013?


----------



## Verso

3naranze said:


> http://www.rettungsgasse.com/Content/_uploads/rettungsgasse/sputter/2011/November/5654c11f-97e9-4b6a-ad5f-fb34381e3a99/RG-InfofolderAllgemein-UK.pdf


Hm, I've never driven half on driving lane, half on emergency lane even in case of congestion (unless ambulance had actually come and driven by).


----------



## il brutto

3naranze said:


> I've got the flyer at a service station.
> I guess it will be a problem to italian way of driving: serious fines in italy if you stay on hard-shoulder lane (emergency lane in italy).


This is how it's supposed to work in Slovenia - 2nd part of this video, which was shown also on TV a few years ago. So you should keep clear also the emergency lane if there's enough space in the middle, while in Austria you should indeed go all the way to the edge. I prefer the Slovenian way, it causes much less mess if a vehicle during traffic jam breaks down and needs to use the emergency lane ...


----------



## italystf

Is Arlberg schnellstrasse 2x2 all the way except the tunnel itself? Is planned a second tube of the Arlbergtunnel? And Karavankentunnel? Are there plans to build motorways connecting Austria with CH and CZ?


----------



## mcarling

No problem. I expect everyone guessed what you meant. I had planned to not post anything about it until you asked what's the difference.


----------



## hofburg

brrrr..

near Tauern rest area



039 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


036 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


034 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


032 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


030 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


029 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


----------



## KingNick

First picture is awesome!


----------



## geor

Is it possible to get some data about this and others snow picket; all measures, guidelines for instalation, types, colours....?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Incredible traffic congestion due to the winter holiday switch weekend. The delay over the Fernpass is at least 3 hours, and A12 is not much better.


----------



## daniel LNC

geor said:


> Is it possible to get some data about this and others snow picket; all measures, guidelines for instalation, types, colours....?


do not tell me that this picture is made on January 13?
I ask as I was about the same piece of A4 to Wienn when he started to snow ....

sorry off topic


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*More traffic, less congestion*

Traffic volumes in Austria increased in 2010; 1.1% more passenger traffic and 3.7% more freigt traffic on the Austrian Autobahn system. Yet traffic congestion fell by 10% nationwide. 

The congestion drop was most significant at the Tauern Tunnel, where congestion decreased by 70% in 2011, due to the opening of the second tube at June 30th, 2011. Overall congestion in Salzburg dropped by 30%. 

The only locations where congestion increased were in Wien and Tirol, both by 1%. Because Wien weighs in heavy in overall congestion, the nationwide drop was only 10%.

Congestion change by state:

Burgenland: -22 %
Kärnten: -10 %
Niederösterreich: -11 %
Oberösterreich: -18 %
Salzburg: -30 %
Steiermark: -5 %
Tirol: +1 %
Vorarlberg: -13 %
Wien: +1 %


----------



## ptscout

*Brenner*

How to save the 8€






... or not


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I did that the last time I came back to Italy from Munich. I left the Autobahn at Innsbruck Süd and drove out of the Autostrade all the way to Brescia. It took twice the time needed, but it was worthwile: beautiful landscapes, and 20€ saved.


----------



## hofburg

there isn't a single look on a Brennerautobahn from national road??


----------



## ptscout

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I did that the last time I came back to Italy from Munich. I left the Autobahn at Innsbruck Süd and drove out of the Autostrade all the way to Brescia. It took twice the time needed, but it was worthwile: beautiful landscapes, and 20€ saved.


The Austrian part is a rip-off with 25ct per km. Its also no problem to save the toll sticker because its 30km shorter - http://g.co/maps/2wb8q
At Sterzing, I paid nothing until last summer at a very short barrier which is replaced now. Next time I will take a 'mancato pagamento-ticket'.


----------



## ptscout

hofburg said:


> there isn't a single look on a Brennerautobahn from national road??


? 2:22 shows the 'Europabrücke'.


----------



## rheintram

italystf said:


> Is Arlberg schnellstrasse 2x2 all the way except the tunnel itself? Is planned a second tube of the Arlbergtunnel? And Karavankentunnel? Are there plans to build motorways connecting Austria with CH and CZ?


No, Arlberg Schnellstraße is not 2x2 all the way. There will be no second tube for the Arlbergtunnel. Instead they connected it to the railway tunnel which is almost exactly parallel to it and they will use that tunnel for evacuation (and vice versa).

Plans for linking the Austrian and Swiss motorway systems exist for decades but have never worked out so far and it won't happen within the next ten years.


----------



## Falusi

I'm curious about that: from where S6 begins?
B54 (so the first IC is a totso) or A2?


----------



## hofburg

ptscout said:


> ? 2:22 shows the 'Europabrücke'.


sorry, don't know how I missed that. motorway is very elevated.


----------



## Verso

Falusi said:


> I'm curious about that: from where S6 begins?
> B54 (so the first IC is a totso) or A2?


I'd say from B54, because if that's not S6, what is it then?


----------



## Coccodrillo

It could have another number, like the part between A4 and Venice airport in Italy. It is considered "A57 dir", not A27 as it would be logical.


----------



## bogdymol

Here are some pics I took last September on A2 Autobahn in Austria, from Villach to the Italian border (map)

Entering A2 autobahn from Villach:




























You're welcome 










Nice view 










Everytime I saw Arnoldstein on direction signs I was thinking at Arnie 



















Left lane closes ahead:










Italia - 1 km ahead










All vehicles directed through the parking lot:










This happened because ASFiNAG was checking the vignettes.










I will post the rest of the pics on the Italian thread.


----------



## Verso

^^ Nice pics.



Coccodrillo said:


> It could have another number, like the part between A4 and Venice airport in Italy. It is considered "A57 dir", not A27 as it would be logical.


Ok, but this one is even shorter (much shorter).

Funny thing is that this ramp is actually longer (2.6 km) than the remainder of the S6 (2.3 km).


----------



## rosulje

@bogdymol,great pictures.


----------



## cougar1989

About the accident
You can see the news at the Austrian Television. It is in German.
http://tvthek.orf.at/programs/70023-Tirol-heute/episodes/3762559-Tirol-heute/3764819-Von-Beton-erdrueckt


----------



## KingNick

What a horrible death. Poor guy.


----------



## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> A trucker was killed in a freak accident on A13 south of Innsbruck at the Schönberg toll plaza where a retaining wall collapsed onto a passing truck.


Strumatic! I feel sad for the victim's family and for the people who had to clean up the mess.


----------



## rower2000

According to the Austrian motorway administration the retaining wall in question was inspected in November 2011 and the structural integrity was found to be in spec. However, the higher-than-usual snow load resulted in the hill above A13 being soaked in melt water and the load on the wall exceeded its design load including safety margins, resulting in a breakup at the wall's foot.

The motorway will remain open, however, only one lane will be available southbound at the site of the accident. Significant traffic disruptions are expected during the Easter travel period.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

In the press release about the construction programme for 2012, ASFiNAG notes;



ASFiNAG said:


> Für den Karawankentunnel an der A 11 beabsichtigt die ASFINAG ebenfalls den Neubau einer zweiten Röhre und die Verwendung der Bestandsröhre als Fluchtweg – bis die Verkehrszahlen weitere Ausbauschritte erforderlich machen. Dieses Investitionsvorhaben um 235 Millionen Euro wird auf zwischenstaatlicher Ebene mit Slowenien abgestimmt. Die Kosten werden zwischen Slowenien und Österreich geteilt.


So it appears that the plan for the Karawankentunnel is to construct a new traffic tube and reverse the current traffic tube to an escape tube, while reverting it to a second traffic tube is still possible if traffic volumes warrant it. The cost is € 235 million.

That sounds much better than the earlier plan which provided a new escape tube which could only be reconstructed to a second traffic tube at high cost.


----------



## Verso

^^ Why wouldn't they just open both tubes for traffic? If there's a fire in one tube, you just close the other tube for traffic and let people escape through it. :dunno:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The original (current) tube likely requires large-scale renovation / modernization. It's better to postpone that until traffic volumes really warrant it. The current volumes in the tunnel are barely 7.000 vehicles per day on average. Although I'd rather see two traffic tubes too, it makes sense from an economic point of view.


----------



## Coccodrillo

What's the traffic and the queues on peak summer days?


----------



## Verso

^^ Nothing special really. @Chris: ah, you're right.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is some congestion on a few weekends in the summer, but the reported delays usually do not exceed 20 minutes. The claims that the new Tauern tubes would just move the 3 - 4 hour delay to the Karawankentunnel has not materialized.


----------



## Verso

No, apparently most people go to Italy, not Slovenia or Croatia.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Kärnten (Carinthia) itself is a pretty popular place too.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

ASFiNAG offers free wi-fi on several rest areas:


----------



## Vienna21

A3 near Ebreichsdorf closed due to a sandstorm!










more pics here:

http://noe.orf.at/news/stories/2527198/


----------



## mcarling

That's the effect of deforestation. Some of the agricultural land needs to be returned to forest.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nah, the lands are just plowed. It happens every spring. Sometimes with fatal endings, like a while ago in northern Germany.


----------



## mcarling

Yes, it happens every year, but it shouldn't. There has been too much deforestation in Europe and, as you point out, it sometimes leads to road fatalities (among other problems). There has been some progress since WWII in reforesting Europe, but more is needed.


----------



## keber

This is called progress. We need a lot of food so we need fields. 
A severe drought is currently in these parts of Europe, so small sandstorms on dried land are nothing unusual.


----------



## mcarling

keber said:


> This is called progress. We need a lot of food so we need fields.


Europe produces far more food than is needed due to massive subsidies. If you subsidize something, you'll get more of it. Most of Europe's excess food production is dumped in Africa, which puts African farmers out of business and leads to cyclical starvation.


----------



## keber

mcarling said:


> Most of Europe's excess food production is dumped in Africa, which puts African farmers out of business and leads to cyclical starvation.


I often hear that story. However when I was there I never saw any food coming from elsewhere than Africa.


----------



## mcarling

keber said:


> I often hear that story. However when I was there I never saw any food coming from elsewhere than Africa.


I wonder whether or not any food could possibly have been delivered from Europe to Africa while you were in Africa without you seeing it.


----------



## Surel

keber said:


> I often hear that story. However when I was there I never saw any food coming from elsewhere than Africa.


Well there is indeed international trade. The point being that agriculture sector comprise small part of GDP in EU, but higher part of GDP in Africa. And there is certainly comparative advantage of the sector in Africa due to the lower wages and lower living standards, cheap oil etc... Thus it would make more sense to import food from Africa in a terms of efficiency. But yeah, we rather import oil because that makes much more sense in the sense of our well being .

Also, whether or not you believe it, the EU agriculture subvences, tarrifs and quotas makes your meals and meals of people in africa more expensive.

But on the trade facts... The balance of Africa with EU is around 10 B euro in and out in the food and agriculture products.

just quickly: http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2007/december/tradoc_137129.pdf
and








More throughout analysis of EU exports imports: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/po...ts/ExtraIntraMonthlyEUTrade_ENVol12-20111.pdf


----------



## mcarling

I think we're starting to wander off-topic here. My point was just that these dust storms which create dangerous driving conditions are the result of deforestation. One of the effects the gradual reforestation (if it continues) will be to reduce the intensity and frequency of these dust storms and improve the safety of driving conditions.


----------



## Vienna21

mcarling said:


> I think we're starting to wander off-topic here. My point was just that these dust storms which create dangerous driving conditions are the result of deforestation. One of the effects the gradual reforestation (if it continues) will be to reduce the intensity and frequency of these dust storms and improve the safety of driving conditions.


In that area where this happened there hasn't been any forest since many decades (or centuries?). Flat land is rare in Austria compared to other countries, therefore most of it is used as farm land. 46% of Austria is forest!
I used to live just a few km away from this Autobahn. I can remember days when we had a lot of sand inside the house due to sandstorms.


----------



## mcarling

Vienna21 said:


> In that area where this happened there hasn't been any forest since many decades (or centuries?). Flat land is rare in Austria compared to other countries, therefore most of it is used as farm land. 46% of Austria is forest!


It's used to be about double that.


----------



## thun

In the early middle ages, when there were only a few hundred thousands of people and larger parts of the Alps haven't been settled yet? It doesn't make much sense to compare those two eras as the conditions totally changed.

Central Europe (Austria, Germany, Switzerland) together with Japan is the part of the first world with the largest share of forests by far as those are the regions where sustainable silviculture was invented. In fact, in some of those, the share of forests is growing (Southern Tyrol, Germany) for quite some time now.


----------



## Verso

thun said:


> Central Europe (Austria, Germany, Switzerland) together with Japan is the part of the first world with the largest share of forests by far


Switzerland (31%) and Germany (32%) aren't particularly forested, there're many rich countries with more forests.

http://www.blatantworld.com/feature/the_world/most_forested_countries.html


----------



## arnau_Vic

ChrisZwolle said:


> ASFiNAG offers free wi-fi on several rest areas:



cool map


----------



## bogdymol

Is there any proposed motorway/expressway connection between eastern and western Austrian motorways? I know that right now all the traffic from Salzburg to Innsbruck goes through German A8 & A91, but how about a connection inside Austria?


----------



## Tauernautobahn

There were plans in the 1970s but they were cancelled.
There would have been S11 (Bischofshofen - Lofer) and S12 (Wörgl - Unken)
as such a connection.

However nowadays there are no plans for such a connection.









(http://www.wabweb.net/verkehr/vkimages/BSG71plan.jpg)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Interestingly, no S37 to Klagenfurt. 

There's a lot of hassle about the S6/S36/S37, they're afraid it attracts too much traffic from A2. But given the fact traffic volumes on A2 are rather low, and an even lower percentage is traffic that drives several hundred kilometers, I think it's not much on real terms. 

Unfortunately, the old "through traffic will destroy our communities" still work fairly good in politics, even though they never come up with any data to back those arguments.

Traffic volumes on the quitest parts of A2 between Wien and Klagenfurt are only 20.000 - 30.000 vehicles per day. How much of that would drive all the way from Wien to Klagenfurt and further? Maybe a couple of thousand potential users for S6/S36/S37 instead of A2, that'll hardly make a difference. Unfortunately plans for high-standard roads accommodating 20.000 - 30.000 vehicles get shot down over the fact it may attract 2.000 or 3.000 vehicles from another route. We have a similar discussion about a project in the Netherlands currently.


----------



## keber

Not anytime soon, if ever. There was a proposal from Spittal to Tirol decades ago (and a small part at Spittal was built too) but with good working connection over German A9 (which is planned to be widened in the future) a motorway connection inside Austria is a science fiction.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Interestingly, no S37 to Klagenfurt.
> 
> There's a lot of hassle about the S6/S36/S37, they're afraid it attracts too much traffic from A2. But given the fact traffic volumes on A2 are rather low, and an even lower percentage is traffic that drives several hundred kilometers, I think it's not much on real terms.
> 
> Unfortunately, the old "through traffic will destroy our communities" still work fairly good in politics, even though they never come up with any data to back those arguments.
> 
> Traffic volumes on the quitest parts of A2 between Wien and Klagenfurt are only 20.000 - 30.000 vehicles per day. How much of that would drive all the way from Wien to Klagenfurt and further? Maybe a couple of thousand potential users for S6/S36/S37.


When I drove the road between Klagenfurt and Judenburg (current southern terminus of S36) I saw everywhere 'no motorway' billboards. Is this project already cancelled?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's scaled down as far as I know. They specifically stated it will not be a continuous motorway/expressway. It was presented at the ASFiNAG budget cut plans a few days ago.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's scaled down as far as I know. They specifically stated it will not be a continuous motorway/expressway. It was presented at the ASFiNAG budget cut plans a few days ago.


Part of the Klagenfurt - Judenburg road is already 4 lanes with no at-grade junctions, but it has no median (only a double solid line in the middle). Adding a median would be enough to made it an expressway.


----------



## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> It was presented at the ASFiNAG budget cut plans a few days ago.


Any other news from that presentation? I saw the news about the Karawanken tunnel. Anything else? We may have been distracted by the strumatic tollbooth accident.


----------



## italystf

Tauernautobahn said:


> There were plans in the 1970s but they were cancelled.
> There would have been S11 (Bischofshofen - Lofer) and S12 (Wörgl - Unken)
> as such a connection.
> 
> However nowadays there are no plans for such a connection.
> (http://www.wabweb.net/verkehr/vkimages/BSG71plan.jpg)


This connection made sense before Schengen. Now there is no need for it, the route between Vienna and Innsbruck is already direct although passing through Germany. The priority would be a motorway between Innsbruck and the Swiss border.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> This connection made sense before Schengen. Now there is no need for it, the route between Vienna and Innsbruck is already direct although passing through Germany. The priority would be a motorway between Innsbruck and the Swiss border.


There is already the Arlberg motorway-expressway.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

mcarling said:


> Any other news from that presentation? I saw the news about the Karawanken tunnel. Anything else? We may have been distracted by the strumatic tollbooth accident.


Not that much news. They found some co-financing with regional governments which they presented as a budget cuts (yes, it is for ASFiNAG). 

* A5 will be phased with first one carriageway, and later the second, pending the construction of R52 on the Czech side. 
* S3 Hollabrunn - Guntersdorf is scaled back to a 2+1 road
* A26 Linz will be executed with longer duration roadworks which would save some money
* S1 Wiener Außenring: postponed to after 2018 (specifically: tunnel Löbau)
* S36 Judenburg - St Georgen: postponed and scaled back to existing road improvement
* S36 St Georgen - Scheifling: scaled back to existing road improvement

Two projects are canceled:

* A24 Spange Wien (S1/A23 connection)
* A26 Linzer Ring, northern segment canceled for the time being.

Overall ASFiNAG cuts back € 2.8 billion during the next 4 years.


----------



## bogdymol

Tauernautobahn said:


> There were plans in the 1970s but they were cancelled.
> There would have been S11 (Bischofshofen - Lofer) and S12 (Wörgl - Unken)
> as such a connection.
> 
> However nowadays there are no plans for such a connection.


Thank you for your answer. Even if those express-ways would have been built, it still would be a better option to drive from Salzburg (Wien) to Innsbruck via Germany.



ChrisZwolle said:


> There's a lot of hassle about the S6/S36/S37, they're afraid it attracts too much traffic from A2. But given the fact traffic volumes on A2 are rather low, and an even lower percentage is traffic that drives several hundred kilometers, I think it's not much on real terms.


Traffic on A2 is fine. It's not an empty motorway, but it's not a crowded one. In fact, I noticed that around large towns there is some traffic, but there were sections between towns that were with very few traffic (especially before Graz, comming from the south). I don't think that much of the traffic from Wien to Klagenfurt would move to S6/S36/S37 because it's more confortable to drive on a motorway and the speed limit is higher.

Here is a video from A2 Klagenfurt-Graz. Check the traffic from the halfway.






And S37 near Graz:


----------



## Tauernautobahn

mcarling said:


> Thanks! Is the plan to build everything shown on the map above during 2013-2016?


The start of construction works on the section Schrick/Mistelbach - Poysbrunn is scheduled for 2013 and it should be in operation in 2016.

The works on the bypass of Drasenhofen should start 2015/16 and are planned to be completed in the year 2016/17


----------



## mcarling

Tauernautobahn said:


> The start of construction works on the section Schrick/Mistelbach - Poysbrunn is scheduled for 2013 and it should be in operation in 2016.
> 
> The works on the bypass of Drasenhofen should start 2015/16 and are planned to be completed in the year 2016/17


Thanks!


----------



## zsimi80

Tauernautobahn said:


> There were plans in the 1970s but they were cancelled.
> There would have been S11 (Bischofshofen - Lofer) and S12 (Wörgl - Unken)
> as such a connection.
> 
> However nowadays there are no plans for such a connection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (http://www.wabweb.net/verkehr/vkimages/BSG71plan.jpg)


How old is this map? Tschechlowakei? Jugoslawien?


----------



## Koesj

The filename says '71...


----------



## thun

Are there plans to build the S9 some day? I guess when the German A94 eventually will be finished (around the year 2437 or so), lots of traffic from Munich to Vienna would better go via Braunau and Ried i. I. instead of the crowded Irschenberg/Salzburg route (A8/A1).


----------



## Road_UK

A8 and A1 is not that crowded. Only on Saturday´s in tourist seasons perhaps, but even at peak hours it´s still flowing ok.


----------



## KingNick

Road_UK said:


> A8 and A1 is not that crowded. Only on Saturday´s in tourist seasons perhaps, but even at peak hours it´s still flowing ok.


On those Saturdays the A8 becomes a parking lot. Apart from that it can hardly deal with much more traffic due to it's layout between Salzburg and Munich.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's rather loaded for its substandard design. Widening and realigning A8 between Rosenheim and Salzburg basically means a complete new motorway.


----------



## thun

Therefore, splitting traffic between A8 (southbound) and A94-S9 (eastbound) would make perfect sense. However, a finished A94 still is quite far in the future.

Nevertheless, once finished, A94 will be the shortest connection between Munich and Linz/Vienna. That alone should result in a serious growth of traffic between Braunau and A1 near Ried (i.e. on the corridor the S9 was planned) no matter if A8 would be upgrated till then or not.


----------



## Tauernautobahn

thun said:


> Are there plans to build the S9 some day? I guess when the German A94 eventually will be finished (around the year 2437 or so), lots of traffic from Munich to Vienna would better go via Braunau and Ried i. I. instead of the crowded Irschenberg/Salzburg route (A8/A1).


With a bit of luck some S9 might be ready in 2437 :lol:
Instead of building S9 they did and will do some improvements on B148, like the bypass of Altheim or St. Peter am Hart.

I don't think traffic will increase all too much on B148 just because A94 is opened. I rather think that most of the traffic that is using A94 for getting to Linz will continue on A94 from Simbach to Pocking as it is not really that much longer.


----------



## Road_UK

Traffic from Munich to Vienna is relatively low. Agreed there is a lot of traffic from Munich to Salzburg, but a lot carries on to Villach and Graz from there. Most international traffic between Linz and Vienna comes from Mid and Northern Germany via Frankfurt, Nürnberg and Passau, and they don´t go anywhere near Munich. Other international traffic on A1 in Austria is what comes from Innsbruck via Rosenheim on that route.


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## ChrisZwolle

An A94-S9 motorway can cut some 50 kilometers off the München - Linz/Wien route compared to A8. That's quite significant.


----------



## Road_UK

Yes, but is it worth it.


----------



## thun

Well, it might be. That depends on how traffic will develop, and there's a good chance that traffic between southern Bavaria and Eastern Europe (i.e. everything behind Vienna) will grow.
I think they have to do some upgrates, but the oney mentioned on B148 imo aren't enough. I think there are a few more stretches on B141 that would need an upgrate (e.g. bypasses of Mehrnbach and Polling and a better connection between the Western bypass of Ried and A8). Ideally, you wouldn't have to go through any village.
Another option would be to build a completely new intersection free connection across the Inn, e.g. between Rotthalmünster and Kammer.


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## ChrisZwolle

It would serve one of the fastest growing corridors. There's traffic growth in central Europe as well as in the München metropolitan area, which is one of the fastest growing areas of Germany. 

By the way the planning of the construction of A94 between München and Altötting is now much more advanced than it was a couple of years ago. It wouldn't surprise me if A94 is finished to Braunau am Inn before 2017-2018. The last leg to Passau is another story.


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## hofburg

2 parallel motorways so close don't make any sens to me. what they should do is to build a new A8 between RO and S.


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> An A94-S9 motorway* can cut some 50 kilometers* off the München - Linz/Wien route compared to A8. That's quite significant.


30 km at most. This is around 15 minutes. Compared to almost 5 h of total driving time between München and Wien not a lot.


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## ChrisZwolle

No, almost 50 kilometers if you drive via Ried in Innkreis instead of via Salzburg. That's well over half an hour for trucks, plus a lower toll.


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## keber

Sorry, I counted from city center to city center, which is more logical. Transit traffic from northern parts of Bavaria would go over A3 however.


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## Road_UK

No, I fully agree with Hofburg on this, and they should make the A8 upgrade or renewal a priority, as this serves trafic from Munich and Innsbruck (I use it a lot). This new proposed motorway would only be useful to people on the East-West line from Karlsruhe to Munich. Anything else comes from Innsbruck, while anything north of Heilbronn and Nürnberg uses A3 via Passau avoiding Munich. The amount of people that would benefit from a new link from Munich to Vienna are at a bare minumum, and not worth upsetting local farmers and countryside. 

And there might be traffic growth around Munich, but this has more to do with Munich being a metropiltan city, and traffic transitting through Munich, heading for the Alps, Italy and Slovenia and beyond. Like I said, transit traffic to Vienna doesn`t go via Munich but Regensburg/Passau.


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## ChrisZwolle

You guys are finding out that European countries are not shaped like a square like U.S. states?


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## Road_UK

Since the 1st of January of this year, the Austrians have legislated the "Rettungsgasse". This means that in an event of congestion, on dual lane motorways, stationary and slow moving traffic has to move respectively to the far right and far left. On a triple lane motorway, traffic on the inside lane has to move to the far right, and lane 1 and 2 has to move to the far left. A similar thing was introduced in Germany, although nobody seem to be taken notice. In Austria they take this law very seriously, but the problem being with the high amount of foreigners on the road who are unaware of this new law, the practice is somewhat lacking progress on these new measures. ASFINAG has invested a lot of money to provide information on this new Rettungsgasse, by providing road signs, matrix signal notices and brochures in most European languages, available at any filling station. 
















A lot of people not aware creates this situation:


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## JackFrost

^^i know i will be probably virtually crucified now, but i think this new law of "rettungsgasse" is kind of unnecessary and annoying. in most of the cases the reason of the jam is simply due to the heavy traffic or some construction site. therefore it makes absolutely no sense to drive on the side if traffic still flows -and there is no accident. i mean you still can hear and see if a police car (or whatever) approaches + and of course they still can use the hard shoulders.

its another thing if you are forced to completely stop your vehicle, then of course its OK to go to the side. but driving on the side of the road for example on A23 in rush hour when you drive probably with not more than 30 km/h is completely pointless in my opinion. we have these fancy matrix signs on nearly all of our motorways, where you can see if its just a normal "stau" or is it really an accident. 

so i think it would be better if the slogan would be like: "bei Unfall, Rettungsgasse" and not "bei Staubildung, Rettungsgasse".


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## Road_UK

I fully agree with you. It's a total waste of time and money, especially in a country like Austria. And with the high volume of foreign traffic on the road, who are not educated on this, who is going to obey anyway...


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## JackFrost

yes, this idiotism is one of the few things i hope we will never see in eastern europe...


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## ChrisZwolle

That's where the wide and continuous shoulders come in handy. Some people claim it's a waste of money to construct 4 meter wide shoulders instead of 2.5 meters, but it's 1) much safer if a truck breaks down, 2) better for the flow of emergency vehicles and 3) allows for a 4-0 setup with a higher speed limit during roadworks, meaning roadworks last shorter and are more cost-effective.


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## Road_UK

Austrian shoulders appear to be wide enough, and are near-continuous anyway. And as Jack Frost quite rightly pointed out, most congestions in Austria are not accident related. Different story in countries like the Netherlands and the UK, where one incident can clog an entire network up. And they fully rely on hard shoulders...


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## hofburg

ChrisZwolle said:


> You guys are finding out that European countries are not shaped like a square like U.S. states?


we're just trying to find some fun stuff.


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## bogdymol

Why don't cars stay in their lanes and emergency vehicles go on the hard shoulder (emergency lane)? I've seen just once a motorway accident and everyone stopped the cars on lanes 1 & 2, and the emergency lane was left clear.

Pics from M5 motorway in Hungary (close to M43 interchange):


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## Road_UK

Not allowed in Austria anymore. They like to do things a little different...


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## seem

Austrian must learn to do things in Balkan way.. you can't be just perfectionist and prepered for everything.


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## JackFrost

bogdymol said:


> Why don't cars stay in their lanes and emergency vehicles go on the hard shoulder (emergency lane)? I've seen just once a motorway accident and everyone stopped the cars on lanes 1 & 2, and the emergency lane was left clear.


very good question. 

nobody can tell me that it is easier to drive a police/ambulance car between 2 rows of constantly moving vehicles as on the hard shoulder where you have to only watch your left side, since on your right there is the crash barrier. of course the police should fine the shit out of people using the hard shoulders illegally while waiting in a traffic jam (which is one possible explanation why austria introduced that horrible law).


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## thun

^^
1. If a broken vehicle actually blocks the emergency shoulder (as it has to do on a motorway) before the actual accident, the whole road is blocked for emergency vehicles which should go further. You'll hardly be able to go around that vehicle if there's a jam on the right lane.
2. In case of emergency, with the Rettungsgasse it is possible for emergency vehicles to directly access all vehicles in the jam (because the Rettungsgasse is in the middle of the road, the emergency shoulder on the side). Same is true for first aid during super-jams on those hot summer traffic peak days where lots of people are at potential risk of suffering heat strokes, etc.


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## JackFrost

as i said, its okay when an accident happened -although i think that a broken vehicle on the hard shoulder is quite rare. 
but its definately very annoying when its only an ordinary traffic jam.


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## KingNick

Austria's Autobahn operator (ASFINAG) also claims on it's website that studies from Germany have shown that rescue forces show up on site up to 4 minutes faster due to the Rettungsgasse, since they can drive much faster through the broader Rettungsgasse alley than on the rather narrow emergency shoulder.

BTW: Rettungsgasse is used in Austria, Switzerland, Germany, Czech Republic and Slovenia. So most countries surrounding Austria are already familiar with it.


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## KingNick

Jack_Frost said:


> as i said, its okay when an accident happened -although i think that a broken vehicle on the hard shoulder is quite rare.
> but its definately very annoying when its only an ordinary traffic jam.


Doesn't matter. You can't tell what's the reason for the jam and quite frankly you're not any slower due to the Rettungsgasse.


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## Road_UK

KingNick said:


> Austria's Autobahn operator (ASFINAG) also claims on it's website that studies from Germany have shown that rescue forces show up on site up to 4 minutes faster due to the Rettungsgasse, since they can drive much faster through the broader Rettungsgasse alley than on the rather narrow emergency shoulder.
> 
> BTW: Rettungsgasse is used in Austria, Switzerland, Germany, Czech Republic and Slovenia. So most countries surrounding Austria are already familiar with it.


No, they are not familiar with it at all. It might be law there, but nobody does it. Sitting in traffic in Germany is like a hobby of mine, and I only saw a Rettungsgasse being formed once, on the A3 at Würzburg, due to roadworks on the shoulder. I have never been stuck in traffic in Slovenia, have been at all other countries, and never saw a Rettungsgasse there. Poor attempts on the A12 Inntal Autobahn is the closest thing I saw... In any case, Austrians like to do things a little different, because it is silly and a waste of time and money. Congestion is very little in Austria, and mostly volume of traffic related. It should take a look at how countries where real congestions are and how they tackle the problem, and spend some money in changing road signs.


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## keber

devo said:


> Well, here I give you the longest road tunnel in the world. Could be any road tunnel in Norway. Other motorway-tunnels are similar of design, and nothing implies that the 25 km undersea Rogfast motorway tunnel would have any different entrance.
> 
> So at least here in Norway we don't make masterpieces out of tunnel entrances just because of importance.
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/mQAB


Where is machinery and electrical equipment housed? Also traffic expected in Karawankentunnel is much greater and intense than in Norwegian tunnels so there are more demands on safety and therefore more equipements is needed (and as we know, Norwewgian tunnels are not considered the safest in Europe). 

I agree that some lower profile portals could be made, but they didn't choose so. Second tube won't have such huge portals that's for sure.


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## JackFrost

KingNick said:


> Doesn't matter. You can't tell what's the reason for the jam and quite frankly you're not any slower due to the Rettungsgasse.


you really think it makes sense to do the rettungsgasse over and over again every morning and afternoon f.e. on A7 in Linz, A14 before pfändertunnel A22, A23, A2, A4 in vienna when there is only a simple little congestion??? i dont think so.


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## devo

@keber.

Typically there are small electrical rooms just inside the tunnel entrance, or just outside. It will only be a small box anyway. This controls closing the tunnels, fans, lighting and all other stuff. Fans are standard inside this and other new tunnels.

Also, we have a central traffic management building, so all the cameras and sensors are monitored somewhere else, not in an office next to the tunnel. They can remotely shut down the tunnel, or it might shut itself down if a fire is detected.

Regarding Norways rather bad reputation in tunnel safety:
There are A LOT of tunnels in Norway. They are hundreds of short, old tunnels. And some of the longer ones are in the middle of nowhere. They are also old and not anywhere near the safety levels that are demanded today. This pulls the statistic down. All new tunnels are built to european standards, and to the joy of us motorists, many of them are dualled, not because of traffic volumes, but because of safety demands an escape tunnel. Those are not built here, we just build another tube and get on with it. It all depends on traffic volumes anyway.

There's obviously a lot more to it than just this, but these are the main points. Also, there are statistically fewer accidents in tunnels.

@Rettungsgasse
I have to agree with @ChrisZwolle here. Proper shoulders are the backbone of getting quickly to an accident. It's there, it's supposed to be clear just because of this, it makes sense and people don't have to learn how to deal with a rettungsgasse. If there are vehicles blocking the road before the accident, well as you see in @seem's video, that can happen in any lane, not just the hard shoulder. It should be possible to pass it anyway.


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## cinxxx

AUT_B130 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B130 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B130 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B130 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B130 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B130 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B130 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B130 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B130 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B131 by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

AUT_B127 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B127 by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

*A7 from Linz to A1*
pictures taken on 17th of May 2012


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A7 (E55) by cinxxx, on Flickr


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## hofburg

I was hoping you would turn right.  donautal looks nice


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## cinxxx

hofburg said:


> I was hoping you would turn right.  donautal looks nice


It was from my trip to Romania.
I choose the Donautal road, because I knew it's nice, to do a change of scenery from the motorway, also ate at Schlögen (very good Schnitzel). Then a stop and a little walk through Linz. And after that motorwaz till Gyor, HU. Stayed there for the night and continued towards Timisoara.
I will post also pictures from A1, S33, S5, S1, S2, A23, A4


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## cinxxx

*A1, coming from A7 until S33*
Pictures taken on 17th May 2012


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr

Nice chair :lol:

AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr

short stop

AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A1 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


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## cinxxx

*The S33*


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S33 by cinxxx, on Flickr


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## vchira

@cinxxx nice pics. I think the last pics are from S5 Krems-Wien  i will never understand why it took so long to connect the S5 with the S33..and the construction took also like more than 1 year! and some think that in some other countries they don't build motroways so that fast


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## cinxxx

*Thanks, and we continue with the S5*


AUT - S5 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S5 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S5 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S5 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S5 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S5 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S5 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S5 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S5 by cinxxx, on Flickr


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## cinxxx

*and A22 from S5 till S1*


AUT - A22 (E49/E59) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A22 (E49/E59) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A22 (E49/E59) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A22 (E49/E59) by cinxxx, on Flickr


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## cinxxx

*S1-north + S2 + A23 until A4*


AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr


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## cinxxx

AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 (E461) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 (E461) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 (E461) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 (E461) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 (E461) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S1 (E461) by cinxxx, on Flickr


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## cinxxx

S2


AUT - S2 (E461) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S2 (E461) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S2 (E461) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S2 (E461) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S2 (E461) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S2 (E461) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S2 (E461) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - S2 (E461) by cinxxx, on Flickr


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## cinxxx

A23 til A4


AUT - A23 (E461) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A23 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A23 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A23 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A23 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A23 by cinxxx, on Flickr


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## cinxxx

AUT - A23 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A23 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A23 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A23 (E59) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A23 (E59) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A23 (E59) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A23 (E59) by cinxxx, on Flickr


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## cinxxx

*A4*


AUT - A4 (E58) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E58) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E58) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E58) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E58) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E58) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E58) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E58) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E58) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E58) by cinxxx, on Flickr


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## cinxxx

AUT - A4 (E58) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E58/E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E58/E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E58/E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E58/E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E58/E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E58/E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E58/E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


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## cinxxx

AUT - A4 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

AUT - A4 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT - A4 (E60) by cinxxx, on Flickr

and the end


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## Luki_SL

^^Awesome pictures  I think on the Autstrian road markings there is too many cities, especially on the A2, A22, A23 in Wien


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## bogdymol

Road markings fail :crazy:


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## hofburg

> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7105/7297924778_a7d5e8be57_b.jpg


only CH and CZ missing.


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## Attus

bogdymol said:


> Road markings fail :crazy:


Did you never drive there? These road markings were created several years ago when there was usually very long queue of heavy trucks before the border, far over the exit of Nickelsdorf, and, according to signals, they should have used the emergency land instead of the driving lanes. That was that made road marings in that area so strange.


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## Verso

cinxxx said:


> AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr


This is signed as if you have to turn right for Graz.


----------



## keber

Isn't it so?


----------



## Verso

No, definitely not. You don't wanna drive through Vienna to get to Graz.


----------



## cinxxx

You can also make right if you want :lol:
http://goo.gl/maps/uCGs


----------



## bogdymol

I would definately turn right if I were there and saw that sign... 

And I tought that only in Romania the road signs are bad :bash:


----------



## keber

I would think to turn right for Graz. Obviously I would be wrong. I must say that is the most confusing sign that I saw in Austria.


----------



## cinxxx

I'm glad you like my pictures :tongue2:


----------



## bogdymol

@cinxxx: don't you have a picture with the next sign, the one that's actually on the right lane for "Graz exit"?


----------



## cinxxx

bogdymol said:


> @cinxxx: don't you have a picture with the next sign, the one that's actually on the right lane for "Graz exit"?


This is the next one


AUT - S1 by cinxxx, on Flickr

And this next next (where S1 ends)


AUT - S1 (E461) by cinxxx, on Flickr

I didn't leave out pictures, I actually posted all of them


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## cougar1989

maybe some of you know this map
If you look at this map there were in the 70's plans to connect the western and eastern motorways of Austria with the S11 Pinzgauer Schnellstraße (Knoten Pongau A10 – Lofer) and the S12 Loferer Schnellstraße (Knoten Wörgl A12 – Staatsgrenze bei Unken)


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## KingNick

The S11 party exists between Bischofshofen and St. Johann im Pongau, Lend - Taxenbach and a rather shot section near Bruck an der Glocknerstraße. Further we got 2 x 1 bypasses without any intersections in Schwarzach (Schönbergtunnel) and Zell am See (Schmittentunnel).

After all it's a pretty decent connection.


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## Suburbanist

The major problem for Austria, road-wise, is the lack of a highway-grade connecting between Garmisch-Partkernkirchen, Fussen and Innsbruck in a Y-shaped network.


----------



## Road_UK

Mountains.


----------



## mapman:cz

Suburbanist said:


> The major problem for Austria, road-wise, is the lack of a highway-grade connecting between Garmisch-Partkernkirchen, Fussen and Innsbruck in a Y-shaped network.


Another step to partially solve this issue is the project of Tschirganttunnel, that'll connect A12 to B179 near Nassereith - and afaik it's pretty advanced. But what really is a challenge, that's some sort of Fernpass crossing - as many other know, Fernpass was created by a huge landslide thousands of years ago and it would be almost unreal to "bore" a tunnel there. Alternatives might include a tunnel under the side of a nearby mountains but I haven't seen anything more specific on that... Enviromental issues are pretty restrictive as well.


----------



## mcarling

mapman:cz said:


> Fernpass was created by a huge landslide thousands of years ago and it would be almost unreal to "bore" a tunnel there.


Tunnel boring technology is improving every year. Tunnel boring projects that were nearly impossible ten years ago are merely challenging today. I have no idea what about Fernpass would make tunnel boring difficult.


----------



## KingNick

mcarling said:


> Tunnel boring technology is improving every year. Tunnel boring projects that were nearly impossible ten years ago are merely challenging today. I have no idea what about Fernpass would make tunnel boring difficult.


Soft sediment stone and no, there was no tunnel boring revolution like you described within the last decade. A TBM would just get burried.


----------



## Singidunum

Suburbanist said:


> The major problem for Austria, road-wise, is the lack of a highway-grade connecting between Garmisch-Partkernkirchen, Fussen and Innsbruck in a Y-shaped network.


Indeed, another problem, there is not a single motorway connection to Germany from Kufstein to Bregenz. And although the distances are short, they are still mountain passes.


----------



## mcarling

KingNick said:


> Soft sediment stone and no, there was no tunnel boring revolution like you described within the last decade. A TBM would just get burried.


I didn't write that there has been a revolution in tunnel boring. I wrote that there have been improvements. 

The upper limit with current technology for tunnel boring in soft sediment stone is 60 to 100 meters of overburden (that's more or less depth below the surface) depending on the bore diameter and specific conditions. If the tunnel would have to be more than about 100 meters deep and the soil conditions are particularly soft, then tunnel boring is not yet feasible.


----------



## Road_UK

The locals are not complaining, why should those who live far away? They will not give up tourism for motorways, it is the most important source of income for Tirol.


----------



## KingNick

Road_UK said:


> The locals are not complaining, why should those who live far away? They will not give up tourism for motorways,* it is the most important source of income for Tirol.*


Well that is an exaggeration. The industrial and manufacturing sector easily doubles the numbers of tourism. Yet it is an highly important asset which is far more important then getting faster from Innsbruck to Klagenfurt.


----------



## Road_UK

There is hardly any industry here in Tirol. GE Capital in Jenbach, a few in Innsbruck, and some timbet trade, that's about it. The A12 functions as a transit route to Italy and commuter traffic in the Innsbruck region, but after Innsbruck it is virtually empty until you get to Bregenz. Here in the Zillertal nobody wants a motorway, that subject is long gone and dusted. And I don't think that people on the Achensee, in Gerlos, Seefeld or Reutte are keen to clear out hotels, cable cars, ski-lifts and wonderful scenery's for the sake of that little traffic that wants to go from Klagenfurt to Innsbruck. The motorway from Germany to Innsbruck via Kufstein is fast enough, and from Garmisch via Seefeld really doesn't take that long.


----------



## Singidunum

But it's not the question for Zillertal but for all those companies that would prospectively use the motorway for transit and pay millions every year in toll. It's not for the local companies from Tirol, but for many companies from Italy, Germany, Slovenia etc. Their financial interest outweighs the wishes of Zillertal residents. It's not like this area is 3km wide so that a motorway would ruin everything, it's NIMBY hysteria. Just take a look at Germany, it has a web of motorways yet I don't think it's landscapes are ruined. The motorway is same thing as the current road only wider.


----------



## KingNick

Singidunum said:


> But it's not the question for Zillertal but for all those companies that would prospectively use the motorway for transit and pay millions every year in toll. It's not for the local companies from Tirol, but for many companies from Italy, Germany, Slovenia etc. Their financial interest outweighs the wishes of Zillertal residents. It's not like this area is 3km wide so that a motorway would ruin everything, it's NIMBY hysteria. Just take a look at Germany, it has a web of motorways yet I don't think it's landscapes are ruined. The motorway is same thing as the current road only wider.


It's one thing to have a motorway on a plain field or in a alpine valley. The impact differs tremendously.

And for the companies: Just-in-time is the way to save money not as fast as possible. Everybody with solid business knowledge knows that.


----------



## KingNick

Road_UK said:


> There is hardly any industry here in Tirol. GE Capital in Jenbach, a few in Innsbruck, and some timbet trade, that's about it. The A12 functions as a transit route to Italy and commuter traffic in the Innsbruck region, but after Innsbruck it is virtually empty until you get to Bregenz. Here in the Zillertal nobody wants a motorway, that subject is long gone and dusted. And I don't think that people on the Achensee, in Gerlos, Seefeld or Reutte are keen to clear out hotels, cable cars, ski-lifts and wonderful scenery's for the sake of that little traffic that wants to go from Klagenfurt to Innsbruck. The motorway from Germany to Innsbruck via Kufstein is fast enough, and from Garmisch via Seefeld really doesn't take that long.


Industry in Tyrol:

http://tirol.signon.at/karte.html


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## Suburbanist

Road_UK said:


> The locals are not complaining, why should those who live far away? They will not give up tourism for motorways, it is the most important source of income for Tirol.


It is strange that you, who makes a living driving express cargo throughout Western Europe, would bow to NIMBYs that think they still live in the Late Medieval period.

Within the context of EU and large national states, people who live in critical communication routs have just to put up with through traffic, simple as that.

This doesn't mean using Euro 0 trucks without filters or filling river bed and drying them altogether, but people who live in areas that are natural thoroughfares for traffic need to accept the fact they will be "overrun" by passing traffic many times larger than local one.

Especially because without easy access to the valleys entrances in the Alps, those areas would be all economically dead and decaying. Just look at what happens to some rather isolated Italian Alpine valleys that are too steep to fir any sky activity or other tourist activities.


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## Road_UK

You've been on holiday in Mayrhofen recently, you know better than that...


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## Verso

Actually, if there were a motorway or an expressway between Villach and Innsbruck, it almost certainly wouldn't be direct, but going via Bischofshofen and Wörgl (like on that old map) and that wouldn't be any faster than through Germany now.


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## hofburg

it should go trough Italy. Drava valley, in Dobbiaco it would have junction with Autostrada d'Alemagna, and then join Brenner motorway.


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## mcarling

Verso said:


> Actually, if there were a motorway or an expressway between Villach and Innsbruck, it almost certainly wouldn't be direct, but going via Bischofshofen and Wörgl (like on that old map) and that wouldn't be any faster than through Germany now.


I would be happy with any improvements to the 164/178 between Wörgl and Bischofshofen.


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## Road_UK

hofburg said:


> it should go trough Italy. Drava valley, in Dobbiaco it would have junction with Autostrada d'Alemagna, and then join Brenner motorway.


It took me over two hours to get from Bruneck to the A22 last Saturday due to congestion.


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## italystf

Road_UK said:


> It took me over two hours to get from Bruneck to the A22 last Saturday due to congestion.


Brunico, it's Italy 

Anyway, I never heard of a plan of a motorway to Austria from A22 to Lienz through Val Pusteria and Dobbiaco. In the 60s they planned the Venice - Munich but later they decided to build the A22 and the A23.

The Salzburg - Innsbruck link is now useless after Schengen agreement, the route through Germany is fast. There are other similar situations in Europe, such driving from Cuneo to Ventimiglia across France or from Cividale to Tarvisio through Slovenia.


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## Road_UK

Bruneck, its Sudtirol.

There are more countries, where it is quicker to run through another country to get back to your own. Several routes from Holland into Germany, back into Holland for example. And if you want to travel from Metz in France to Calais, it takes just as long to drive through Luxembourg and Belgium, and back into France at Lille, but cheaper as there are no tolls.


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Bruneck, its Sudtirol.


Brunico-Bruneck, it's Alto Adige-Südtirol.


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## Road_UK

Local roadsigns gives the German version first. But who cares, its Italy all the same, even though citizens can soon decide to become Austrian as well.


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## hofburg

speaking of Bischofshofen...


DSC09955 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> The Salzburg - Innsbruck link is now useless after Schengen agreement, the route through Germany is fast.


Not Salzburg - Innsbruck, but Villach - Innsbruck.


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## mcarling

Verso said:


> Not Salzburg - Innsbruck, but Villach - Innsbruck.


In my opinion, the most realistic (of all the not very realistic) options to speed up Villach - Innsbruck would be to speed up Wörgl - Bischofshofen and make maximum use of the A10 and A12.


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## keber

I would rather see additional bypasses on B100 road with mostly important Lienz bypass and a tunnel under Thurn or Gerloss pass. Motorway is not needed. That would be enough cheap and still effective.


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## Singidunum

Are Italians planning to connect A22 and A23 for an example via Tolmezzo-Bolzano?


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## italystf

Singidunum said:


> Are Italians planning to connect A22 and A23 for an example via Tolmezzo-Bolzano?


No, it was never planned a such project. Just A27 and A23, but I doubt it will ever realized. A more realistic undergoing plan is connecting A28 and A23.
If we are lucky, we'll see the A31 towards Trento in the next 20-30 years.


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## Singidunum

That means basically no east-west motorway between Serenissima A4 and German A8


----------



## italystf

Singidunum said:


> That means basically no east-west motorway between Serenissima A4 and German A8


It's U/C the motorway-like road between the A31 and A28 parallel to A4 (Pedemontana Veneta).


----------



## Attus

Singidunum said:


> That means basically no east-west motorway between Serenissima A4 and German A8


Yes. Actually, there're the Alps there.


----------



## rarse

Hello guys. I was wondering is an extension of S31 planned to A4?


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## rower2000

rarse said:


> Hello guys. I was wondering is an extension of S31 planned to A4?


Not any more. It was the original plan in the 70s, but has long been scrubbed. The AADT between Eisenstadt-Ost and Winden is just 10,000 to 12,000 vehicles/24 hrs, thus an extension is not really necessary (http://www.burgenland.at/media/file/2139_T2_Taeglicher_Verkehr.pdf).


----------



## rarse

Thank you for reply.



rower2000 said:


> The AADT between Eisenstadt-Ost and Winden is just 10,000 to 12,000 vehicles/24 hrs


In Sweden that would be near to yes. 



rower2000 said:


> an extension is not really necessary


If there would be an extension, A2, S1 and A4 would be less congested. People who travel from Slovakia to south Austria and reverse wouldn't use them.


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## martin0102

rower2000 said:


> Not any more. It was the original plan in the 70s, but has long been scrubbed. The AADT between Eisenstadt-Ost and Winden is just 10,000 to 12,000 vehicles/24 hrs, thus an extension is not really necessary .


I thought that it could be shortcut for me and many other slovak people and it could help to reduce traffic on A4, S1 and A2. I use that shortcut despite the fact, that i need to go 25km through some villages.


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## mcarling

Extending the S31 to the A4 (or even a bit further to the A6) as a replacement for (or enhancement to) route 50 seems to me like a good way to relieve congestion near Vienna.


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## ptscout

I used that link last week and it was no big problem for 30km, just like a usual road overloaded (best known in Germany) with trucks doing 70kmh.


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## ChrisZwolle

The main cause of smog is due to their beloved mountains. Airmasses remain stagnant in the valley and pollution accumulates for a prolonged amount of time, resulting in smog.


----------



## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> The main cause of smog is due to their beloved mountains. Airmasses remain stagnant in the valley and pollution accumulates for a prolonged amount of time, resulting in smog.


Right, so the only solution is to reduce pollution. The most cost-effective way to reduce vehicular pollution has been programmes to buy up old dirty gas-guzzlers and take them off the road forever.

I suppose Austria could set truck tolls based on Euro 0, Euro I, Euro II, Euro III, Euro IV, or Euro V compliance. That might help lead to older dirtier trucks being replaced by newer cleaner trucks.


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## ChrisZwolle

I assume Austria also "imports" quite a big of emissions from neighboring countries. In small countries like in Europe, air quality is influenced by foreign sources. The Netherlands often has degraded air quality with easterly winds during the winter, coming from sources in the Ruhr area. 

That's why you need an EU-wide approach to air quality. Local solutions such as lower speed limits or cleaner municipal vehicles do not have enough effect, except for inner city streets.

But the most important thing is to recognize the air is nowadays cleaner than since the begin of industrialization.

Truck tolls in Austria are already based on the Euro emission classes. The tolls are higher for older generation euro vehicles, giving an incentive to buy newer trucks. The downside is that this is obstructive to small businesses meaning some trucks will have to be written off much sooner than anticipated.


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## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> I assume Austria also "imports" quite a big of emissions from neighboring countries. In small countries like in Europe, air quality is influenced by foreign sources. The Netherlands often has degraded air quality with easterly winds during the winter, coming from sources in the Ruhr area.
> 
> That's why you need an EU-wide approach to air quality. Local solutions such as lower speed limits or cleaner municipal vehicles do not have enough effect, except for inner city streets.


I agree with you regarding speed limits, but replacing old dirty municipal vehicles with cleaner vehicles is often cost-effective.



ChrisZwolle said:


> Truck tolls in Austria are already based on the Euro emission classes. The tolls are higher for older generation euro vehicles, giving an incentive to buy newer trucks.


Excellent! Are other european countries doing the same?



ChrisZwolle said:


> The downside is that this is obstructive to small businesses meaning some trucks will have to be written off much sooner than anticipated.


I don't see a downside here. Polluters should pay the full costs of pollution. If they don't, everyone else bears the costs of pollution, which is subsidizing pollution.


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## x-type

i don't know about tolls, but i know about international authorizations (CEMT) for Austria - beside Italy they have one of the most strict laws for them. with limited number of authorization per carrier they have also been enforcing Ro-La transportation (in my case Maribor - Wels, but there are more routes to run through Austria). Austrians are specialy restrictive for Euro3 (and less) trucks.
on the other side - D, B, NL have almost none restrictions, they give as many authorizations as you want.


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## ChrisZwolle

mcarling said:


> I don't see a downside here. Polluters should pay the full costs of pollution. If they don't, everyone else bears the costs of pollution, which is subsidizing pollution.


Many small business have just one old truck that does the job. There were significant issues with this in Berlin when they banned even relatively new trucks with the environmental zones. Though these old trucks do pollute substantially more than the latest generation of truck engines. 

The problem with putting a price tag on emissions is that it's very politicized. It's impossible to calculate the cost of pollution and redistribute that cost to every polluter. Another issue is that transportation tends to be the hardest hit while they generally are responsible for 20% of the emissions of various pollutants. 

Urban sources, industry and agriculture also substantially add to mix of local pollutants, but politicians and activists tend to aim disproportionally on road transportation. 

The Brenner Autobahn carries about 30.000 vehicles per day, but considering modern cars emit over 100 times less than 25-year old cars, it is currently much cleaner than it was in the 1970s, when basically 300 vehicles per day could emit as much NOx and PM10 as 30.000 today. We've come a long way, but it isn't completed yet.


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## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> Many small business have just one old truck that does the job.


I don't see that as a reason why everyone else should effectively pay subsidies to those small businesses for polluting.



ChrisZwolle said:


> The problem with putting a price tag on emissions is that it's very politicized. It's impossible to calculate the cost of pollution and redistribute that cost to every polluter.


That something cannot be done perfectly does not seem to me a strong argument to avoid doing it -- especially when the benefits of doing it are great and the costs of not doing it are great.



ChrisZwolle said:


> Another issue is that transportation tends to be the hardest hit while they generally are responsible for 20% of the emissions of various pollutants.
> 
> Urban sources, industry and agriculture also substantially add to mix of local pollutants, but politicians and activists tend to aim disproportionally on road transportation.


I hope it's obvious that I'm not advocating continuing subsidies for fixed-point pollution. I advocate internalizing all pollution externalities -- not only for transport.



ChrisZwolle said:


> The Brenner Autobahn carries about 30.000 vehicles per day, but considering modern cars emit over 100 times less than 25-year old cars, it is currently much cleaner than it was in the 1970s, when basically 300 vehicles per day could emit as much NOx and PM10 as 30.000 today. We've come a long way, but it isn't completed yet.


Yes, which is exactly why making modern standards even stricter will accomplish little compared to the huge benefits available from taking the old cars, trucks, and buses off the roads.


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## ChrisZwolle

There was an interesting government report in the Netherlands which stated that oldtimers constitute 1% of the urban traffic, but are responsible for 10% of particle (PM10) and 20% of nitrogen dioxide (NOx) emissions. A car is considered an oldtimer in the Netherlands if it's over 25 years old. A diesel car from that age emits 80 times more particles and NOx than a modern diesel car. 

The weird thing is that oldtimers get a tax break. Owners don't have to pay the annual road tax (which can save you over € 1.200 per year if you have a diesel oldtimer). There is debate whether to continue to exclude oldtimers from the road tax, because import of pre 1987 cars increased substantially in recent years. These "oldtimers" are used for daily transportation, thereby negating the improvement made in air quality in recent years, especially in urban areas.


----------



## Surel

ChrisZwolle said:


> The weird thing is that oldtimers get a tax break. Owners don't have to pay the annual road tax (which can save you over € 1.200 per year if you have a diesel oldtimer). There is debate whether to continue to exclude oldtimers from the road tax, because import of pre 1987 cars increased substantially in recent years. These "oldtimers" are used for daily transportation, thereby negating the improvement made in air quality in recent years, especially in urban areas.


What about a tuned oldtimer? Do they have a tax break as well? New motor, suspension etc... and still tax free?


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## keber

New motor on oldtimer? That does not exist (except in total and very expensive car overhaul)


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> Truck tolls in Austria are already based on the Euro emission classes. The tolls are higher for older generation euro vehicles, giving an incentive to buy newer trucks.





mcarling said:


> Excellent! Are other european countries doing the same?


Switzerland:

Euro 6: 2.05 cent CHF/tkm or 68 eurocent per km for a 40 t truck or 204 € for Basel-Chiasso
Euro 4-5: 2.28 cent CHF/tkm or 76 eurocent per km for a 40 t truck or 228 € for Basel-Chiasso
Euro 3: 2.69 cent CHF/tkm or 90 eurocent per km for a 40 t truck or 270 € for Basel-Chiasso
Euro 1-2 and less: 3.10 cent CHF/tkm or 103 eurocent per km for a 40 t truck or 309 € for Basel-Chiasso


----------



## bozata90

mcarling said:


> Excellent! Are other european countries doing the same?


All of them. There is an obligation (EU Directive) to introduce tolling systems that allow the less-polluting vehicles to pay less.


----------



## sotonsi

Couldn't that simply be called "fuel duty" or something? Taxes you on usage of the road network and pollution.

I guess something has to justify the Galileo satellite system...


----------



## MattiG

bozata90 said:


> All of them. There is an obligation (EU Directive) to introduce tolling systems that allow the less-polluting vehicles to pay less.


Would like to see a link to such a directive.


----------



## Tauernautobahn

*S10*

I do not know if this was already posted but on 4th of August the first part of S10 close to Unterweitersdorf was opened to traffic. However it is just a little stretch of approx 1 km. 

Pictures can be found here:

http://www.aktivnews.de/z_einsatzbilder_2012/thumbnails.php?album=880


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## mcarling

Tauernautobahn said:


>


I drove from Brno to Vienna yesterday. The section from Schrick to Poysbrunn junction is the most wretched of the journey. The CZ side is not so bad. I think they're right to build this next.


----------



## KingNick

MattiG said:


> Would like to see a link to such a directive.


There you go:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2006:157:0008:0023:EN:PDF


----------



## MattiG

KingNick said:


> There you go:
> 
> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2006:157:0008:0023:EN:PDF


The Eurovignette directive authorizes the member countries to introduce kilometre-based fees but it does not enforce them to do so. It applies only to vehicles over 3500 kg.


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## mcarling

KingNick said:


> There you go:
> 
> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2006:157:0008:0023:EN:PDF


This limits the powers that EU member states would otherwise have to use "polluter pays" pricing by limiting the price for the most egregious polluters to not more than double the price for the cleanest vehicles. That's just stupid (or pro-pollution).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The 2013 vignettes are unveiled. It will be dark pink vignettes and the prices went up 3.6%, more than in other recent years:


----------



## cinxxx

Some pictures from the *B177 *German border (comming from Garmisch-Partenkirchen) - Innsbruck. There's some serious descent there with lots of Notwege.


AUT_B177 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B177 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B177 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B177 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B177 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B177 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B177 by cinxxx, on Flickr


AUT_B177 by cinxxx, on Flickr

*B171*


AUT_B171 by cinxxx, on Flickr


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## Zagor666

Wechselstube?What they change in that :cheers:
Nice Pictures,this is a nice road but unfortunately full of buses,campers and so on hno:


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## g.spinoza

I know that road very well, I've driven there dozens of times... there's a nice smell of burnt brakes at the end of the descent


----------



## Road_UK

Burnt brakes mostly from flatland tourists who haven't got a clue on how to drive in the mountains and stand on the pedal brakes instead of engine braking.


----------



## KingNick

Talking about Germans?


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Burnt brakes mostly from flatland tourists who haven't got a clue on how to drive in the mountains and stand on the pedal brakes instead of engine braking.


Exactly


----------



## cinxxx

We mostly used engine braking, didn't smell any brake smell .


----------



## thun

Flachlandtiroler, that is @ KingNick.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think this may be the most obscure E-route of Austria; the E641. It runs from Wörgl to Salzburg via Bad Reichenhall. It's the former route of the E60 (which ran there between 1983 and 1985). Is it even signed? I doubt that.


----------



## xrtn2

Nice pictures :cheers:

These snow-mountains are very beauty.


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## thun

:dunno:
The route is widely known as "Kleines Deutsches Eck" (opposed to the "Großes Deutsches Eck which are A8/A93). By the way, that's the only road in Germany where spike tires are allowed in order to simplify Austrian transit traffic.


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## Zagor666

thun said:


> :dunno:
> The route is widely known as "Kleines Deutsches Eck" (opposed to the "Großes Deutsches Eck which are A8/A93). By the way, that's the only road in Germany where spike tires are allowed in order to simplify Austrian transit traffic.


And the medium size Deutsches Eck is in Koblenz where the rivers Mosel and Rhein meet :colgate:
A few beautiful,unknown pass roads connect Austria and Germany.When you are in the region try a few :cheers:


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think this may be the most obscure E-route of Austria; the E641. It runs from Wörgl to Salzburg via Bad Reichenhall. It's the former route of the E60 (which ran there between 1983 and 1985). Is it even signed? I doubt that.


I am proud to say I have done nearly all of the E60. Only a bit missing between Cluj-Napoca and the Black Sea. Done it in different stages though, especially in Britanny, however, one time I have set of from Cluj on a Friday, got to the A12/E60 exit on a Saturday to be in Mayrhofen for the night, and carried on the E60 on the Sunday through Switzerland and France, to be in Amboise, just outside Tours the following Monday morning.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

E60 runs to the Chinese border. Only about half of E60 is west of the Black Sea.


----------



## Road_UK

Well, most of the European side of it then. Can't these Asiens have their own routes?


----------



## JackFrost

^^yeah, thats what i thought too: what the hell is an e-route doing at the chinese border?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Because E-routes are administered by UNECE, a UN agency, and Central Asian republics are members of UNECE since the early 1990s. Therefore, E-routes are theoretically possible in the United States, Canada and Israel because they are also a member of UNECE.


----------



## CNGL

^^ So how about extend I-70 to Long Island, then a bridge/tunnel to Corunna and join it with E70? 

:troll:



ChrisZwolle said:


> I think this may be the most obscure E-route of Austria; the E641. It runs from Wörgl to Salzburg via Bad Reichenhall. It's the former route of the E60 (which ran there between 1983 and 1985). Is it even signed? I doubt that.


It is not even marked in Google Maps. It goes via route 178 in Austria and B21 in Germany. 



Road_UK said:


> I am proud to say I have done nearly all of the E60. Only a bit missing between Cluj-Napoca and the Black Sea. Done it in different stages though, especially in Britanny, however, one time I have set of from Cluj on a Friday, got to the A12/E60 exit on a Saturday to be in Mayrhofen for the night, and carried on the E60 on the Sunday through Switzerland and France, to be in Amboise, just outside Tours the following Monday morning.





ChrisZwolle said:


> E60 runs to the Chinese border. Only about half of E60 is west of the Black Sea.


So Road_UK, when you believe you have E60 almost completed you realize you are only halfway. I've seen photos with E60 signed as far as Azerbaijan, further east is unsigned. Some kind of the same occurs to me: I have clinched almost all the official E07 (Between Zaragoza and Pau), with only the section around Pau to E80 missing. But then they have extended North to Langon and South to Torrubia (Where the motoway used to end back in 2006), the latter one already clinched by me.


----------



## Road_UK

No fun clinching E-routes when half of them appear to be hidden alongside the Great Wall of China.


----------



## mcarling

Suburbanist said:


> They should link Fussen and Innsbruck with a highway, and do the same with Garmisch-Partenkirschen.


What about a 15-20km tunnel from the A12 near Telfs to somewhere near Ehrwald, with roads then connecting to the German A7 near Fussen and A95 near Eschenlohe? It would probably need extra tolls (Maut) like the A13. It would relieve the A12 between Kufstein and Innsbruck (as well as the German A8 and A93).


----------



## Road_UK

No. They don't want new motorways in Tirol, and there is no way that the outside (Dutch) world are going to dictate them in building new roads, because some of you love concrete. A12 is fine as it is, and via Kufstein is a good connection.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ I really hope someday, somehow the central Austrian government railroads (pun intended) the whining annoying NIMBYs of Tyrol and build all those highway links, regardless of what anti-progress back-to-1830 villagers think.


----------



## KingNick

You're freaking fascist.


----------



## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ I really hope someday, somehow the central Austrian government railroads (pun intended) the whining annoying NIMBYs of Tyrol and build all those highway links, regardless of what anti-progress back-to-1830 villagers think.


It's not going to happen. There is no need for them, tourism and keeping the majestic beauty and clean air in tact is far more important. Holland has become one of the ugliest countries in the world, with all that concrete, brick, crime-ridden suburban housing estates. And it has no mountains or areas of outstanding beauty, so you wouldn't possibly understand what its like living over here in the fresh air. What do you care anyway, you don't even live here. Go and cut another tree in your concrete jungle...


----------



## Suburbanist

KingNick said:


> You're freaking fascist.


On the contrary.

I'm against the idea of local hyper-sensitivities getting stuck in the road of development and infrastructure progress.

It is not like I don't favor monetary compensation for ROWs acquired, for instance, but I don't think no community is "entitled" to keep its "character" if an infrastructure is to be built over it.


----------



## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> On the contrary.
> 
> I'm against the idea of local hyper-sensitivities getting stuck in the road of development and infrastructure progress.
> 
> It is not like I don't favor monetary compensation for ROWs acquired, for instance, but I don't think no community is "entitled" to keep its "character" if an infrastructure is to be built over it.


Edit.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The concept of mitigation appears to be completely alien to some people.


----------



## Road_UK

Yes, well if it does come to a stage that villages, vital incomes generated by tourism and farming, areas of outstanding beauty and fine old traditions are to be buried in concrete, I hope that the locals will do whatever it takes to protect their property and right of existence.


----------



## KingNick

Suburbanist said:


> On the contrary.
> 
> I'm against the idea of local hyper-sensitivities getting stuck in the road of development and infrastructure progress.
> 
> It is not like I don't favor monetary compensation for ROWs acquired, for instance, but I don't think no community is "entitled" to keep its "character" if an infrastructure is to be built over it.


Autobahn is no progress. Getting rid of those traffic monsters is a progress. You don't get to decide for other people what kind of infrastructure suites them best. Especially if you don't know anything about the area in question, which is quite obvious in this case.

Monetary compensation? How do you compensate the loss of quality of living? That is simply not possible.


----------



## Road_UK

^^

Bravo. I agree with you on every word!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'm sure that demolishing motorways and send all traffic through towns and cities will dramatically improve the quality of life there.


----------



## Road_UK

Nobody has said anything about demolishing existing motorways.


----------



## Suburbanist

Road_UK said:


> Nobody has said anything about demolishing existing motorways.


But then you are a hypocrite, because it is only modern technology (from electricity to all forms of telecommunications and transport) that made life in Alpine valleys these days to be "idyllic" and not "harsh and dangerous" as it was the case up to mid-18th Century when there were isolated places and their quality of life non-existent beyond survival (and things like fondue were a matter of not starving to death instead of fusion cuisine).

Imagine the Alps without any motorway... it would take 14h to go from Milano to Strasbourg for instance.


----------



## Suburbanist

KingNick said:


> Autobahn is no progress. Getting rid of those traffic monsters is a progress. You don't get to decide for other people what kind of infrastructure suites them best. Especially if you don't know anything about the area in question, which is quite obvious in this case.


Certain infrastructure works have wider implication than benefiting those immediately along its physical presence. Otherwise, places far from power plants would be out of electricity because large electric mains are a huge eyesore, right?

I have utter disregard for this baseless localism that sees fragile places that rely on electricity, food, external defense protection, telecommunications etc. from elsewhere to claim they are too good to put up with infrastructure those other places might need for commerce or transport or what else.



> Monetary compensation? How do you compensate the loss of quality of living? That is simply not possible.


One word: people should get over it. Tyrol or any other small region are not islands of self-sufficiency isolated from the national states they are parts of and rely much upon.


----------



## Road_UK

Do not even attempt to cover your nonsense up by talking about electricity and stuff. You want to destroy parts of Tyrol by building motorways that are a: not needed, and b: would change the way of lifes of people who you don't know or care about. And you don't even live here, you are not a voter here, so basically, you can go to hell with your sick ideas. Our existing infrastructure with the A12 and A13 is just fine, as well as the roads over the Fernpass, Scharnitz and Achensee.


----------



## mcarling

Let's ratchet down the personal attacks. Please keep the discussion focused on impersonal ideas, not on the people putting forth the ideas.


----------



## Road_UK

I am sorry, but I can't stand people that have total disregard for other people's lifes and property. Also have to remind him that Tyrol is selfsufficiant when it comes to electricity.


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> I am sorry, but I can't stand people that have total disregard for other people's lifes and property.


So nobody should build nothing nowhere... because other people in other parts of the world have lives and properties.
Or are only those of people living in Austrian valleys worth?


----------



## Road_UK

Read his posts. It comes from the same guy that is willing to destroy parts of the most wonderful ancient historic city centres of Italy for the sake of a few roads, and you crossed swords with him as well on that subject. And Tyrol is a large area that relies on beauty and tourism.


----------



## mcarling

Road_UK said:


> Read his posts. It comes from the same guy that is willing to destroy parts of the most wonderful ancient historic city centres of Italy for the sake of a few roads, and you crossed swords with him as well on that subject.


Discussing people, rather than ideas, is exactly what needs to stop.


----------



## Verso

I think the old signage was fine. :dunno:


----------



## Tauernautobahn

Verso said:


> I think the old signage was fine. :dunno:


Personally I didn't have many problems with the old signage, too, except maybe Jörg's stupid Italien and Slowenien.
When I was a child I remember seeing Ljubljana (YU) and Udine (I) on the old signs.

The reason for the new signs is that Asfinag hopes to get rid of the recent summer traffic jams at Knoten Villach without adding lanes.


----------



## italystf

Tauernautobahn said:


> Personally I didn't have many problems with the old signage, too, except maybe Jörg's stupid Italien and Slowenien.
> When I was a child I remember seeing Ljubljana (YU) and Udine (I) on the old signs.


It could be worse if they put Laibach and Weiden.


----------



## keber

Tauernautobahn said:


> The reason for the new signs is that Asfinag hopes to get rid of the recent summer traffic jams at Knoten Villach without adding lanes.


New signage as it is won't help, that's for sure.


----------



## Tauernautobahn

italystf said:


> It could be worse if they put Laibach and Weiden.


At least they now sign Maribor in Styria (on new signs at Knoten Graz-West for example) and not just Slowenien.
So Carinthia is the only federal state where they are still signing Countries and not Cities. And I hope they'll change this when they hopefully change their corrupt and nationalistic government at the coming elections.


----------



## Road_UK

Unusual for Austria to replace rising arrows with falling ones. They only recently replaced the last falling arrows at Salzburg and Graz.


----------



## Tauernautobahn

Road_UK said:


> Unusual for Austria to replace rising arrows with falling ones. They only recently replaced the last falling arrows at Salzburg and Graz.


There is still an even new sign at Salzburg-Mitte exit in direction Vienna with a falling arrow.


----------



## Road_UK

They have replaced the falling arrow at exit Salzburg Flughafen last year.


----------



## hofburg

road signage should really be up to a country to decide  but that's another topic...


----------



## keber

Tauernautobahn said:


> So Carinthia is the only federal state where they are still signing Countries and not Cities. And I hope they'll change this when they hopefully change their corrupt and nationalistic government at the coming elections.


Strange that Asfinag is under influence of local nationalistic leaders. We still have old signs to Austria (Avstrija) but today they are just cities. Villach and Klagenfurt (and Graz too) are clearly signed already before Ljubljana on all interchanges and on all confirmation signs.


----------



## Penn's Woods

hofburg said:


> road signage should really be up to a country to decide  but that's another topic...


But anyone can express an opinion, surely?


----------



## Verso

Tauernautobahn said:


> Personally I didn't have many problems with the old signage, too, except maybe Jörg's stupid Italien and Slowenien.


The first signs (probably 1 km ahead) showed Ljubljana and Udine, what happened to them?



Tauernautobahn said:


> When I was a child I remember seeing Ljubljana (YU) and Udine (I) on the old signs.


Where was that? Karawankentunnel opened just one month before the breakup of Yugoslavia.



keber said:


> Strange that Asfinag is under influence of local nationalistic leaders. We still have old signs to Austria (Avstrija) but today they are just cities. Villach and Klagenfurt (and Graz too) are clearly signed already before Ljubljana on all interchanges and on all confirmation signs.


Klagenfurt first appears by Kranj (but it's not so important).


----------



## Tauernautobahn

I don't exactly know and think that Asfinag is under influence of nationalists but what i know is that Jörg Haider ordered to change signage in the nineties. I think it had something to do with the conflict about bilingual city-entrance signs.

However since Haider ordered this there have been no more Ljubljanas and Udines, except where they forgot to change :lol:


----------



## Tauernautobahn

Verso said:


> Where was that? Karawankentunnel opened just one month before the breakup of Yugoslavia.


At Knoten Villach there was Ljubljana (YU) and I think they didn't change the oval quite some time. But ther also was Ljubljana (SLO) later.


----------



## Verso

I saw plenty of Ljubljanas and Udines a couple of years ago in Villach. But none in Klagenfurt, they just sign Loibl (SLO).


----------



## Zagor666

i dont understand the slovenian-austrian border anyway.tito risked so manny trouble with the allies,even a war,cause of trieste,a town that honestly is totaly unimportant,but didnt take nothing away from austria that was just a part of germany,the main enemy.normaly villach,klagenfurt,graz and so on,the whole regions of kärnten and steiermark should be in sfrj so today in slovenija as kranjska i štajerska.every village where slovenians live in austria normaly should be in slovenija :cheers:then we would not have those problems with the signing


----------



## Verso

Tauernautobahn said:


> At Knoten Villach there was Ljubljana (YU) and I think they didn't change the oval quite some time.


Ah yes, we got the SLO code only in 1992 (we used unofficial SL in the meantime and we still could).



Zagor666 said:


> i dont understand the slovenian-austrian border anyway.tito risked so manny trouble with the allies,even a war,cause of trieste,a town that honestly is totaly unimportant,but didnt take nothing away from austria that was just a part of germany,the main enemy.normaly villach,klagenfurt,graz and so on,the whole regions of kärnten and steiermark should be in sfrj so today in slovenija as kranjska i štajerska.every village where slovenians live in austria normaly should be in slovenija :cheers:then we would not have those problems with the signing


Austria was Germany's victim (especially one particular Austrian :troll.


----------



## Zagor666

Verso said:


> Ah yes, we got the SLO code only in 1992 (we used unofficial SL in the meantime and we still could).
> 
> Austria was Germany's victim (especially one particular Austrian :troll.


you mean robert almer :colgate:


----------



## Verso

At least they removed this sign with E51. 








http://www.panoramio.com/photo/69762753

Did they replace this sign as well?








http://www.panoramio.com/photo/69762713


----------



## hofburg

Zagor666 said:


> cause of trieste,a town that honestly is totaly unimportant


?!?!

biggest former Austria's seaport


----------



## rower2000

Tauernautobahn said:


> I did not.
> It IS the case hno:


:bash: hno:. Well done Asfinag...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Guess what happened here. The A12 is closed due to an anti-transit traffic protest. The result? All villages nearby are choked with traffic. Traffic that normally passes the area in 2 minutes now has to burn fuel for 60 minutes or more for a few kilometers on residential streets. Way to go! I can't believe ASFiNAG actually allows this to happen, they announced the motorway closure a couple of days ago, so it's not an impromptu event.


----------



## Tauernautobahn

It's not the Asfinag who has to allow this but the county administration.

Of course it does not make much sense to block the motorway it is still a democratic right to demonstrate.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Of course people are allowed to demonstrate, but closing an important motorway on the busiest day of the week for the whole day is ridiculous.


----------



## Coccodrillo

But is not a serious problems if that happens once in a time. What was the last block for the same protest? 20 years ago? Or maybe never...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are other ways to protest. For example at the local city hall, from an overpass, or maybe on a Sunday on the motorway for a few hours. Blocking the motorway on the busiest day of the week clearly has no other intention then to paralyze traffic as much as possible. Especially because there are no alternate routes in this area other than through villages.


----------



## Coccodrillo

It's not only road users to have rights - if this kind blocks happened once every week then I would complain, but it happened only there and only for one day. As for protesting on city halls...it would be pointless. It's like for strikes, railway or airlines employees go on strike on the busiest days, and that's normal, because they want to be heard.


----------



## Verso

But what do they want? To close the motorway permanently? That's unrealistic.


----------



## Penn's Woods

What was the goal of the protest? I mean, what to the protesters want as an end result?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Reducing traffic or, if there isn't one already, probably also a night traffic ban (for trucks at least).


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^On the Autobahn or on the local roads?


----------



## Tauernautobahn

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^On the Autobahn or on the local roads?


Both.

There have been restrictions for trucks that were rejected from EU court, so it's clear that if they want to reach their goals it has to 'hurt', everything else wouldn't help at all.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Basically go back to the 1930s.


----------



## Tauernautobahn

Why should not letting trucks pass during the night should be 1930ies like?


----------



## Verso

Would locals be banned from driving as well? :troll:


----------



## Tauernautobahn

Ausgenommen Ziel- und Quellverkehr 

of course it would be for transit.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

They act like transit traffic is exclusively an issue in Tirol. However, everything they buy in shops, supermarkets, all utilities like power, roads, railroads, sewage systems, waste managements, etc are all done by trucking. What these protesters buy in the supermarket may very well be "transited" through a German or French town at some point. 

Transit traffic is a fact of life and without it the economy stops. Get over it. We don't live in a pre-industrial era anymore where villages and towns were entirely self-sufficient in their needs.


----------



## Verso

Tauernautobahn said:


> Ausgenommen Ziel- und Quellverkehr
> 
> of course it would be for transit.


How would they control that? Or it's just about trucks?


----------



## Tauernautobahn

Verso said:


> How would they control that? Or it's just about trucks?


it's just for trucks


----------



## Tauernautobahn

ChrisZwolle said:


> They act like transit traffic is exclusively an issue in Tirol. However, everything they buy in shops, supermarkets, all utilities like power, roads, railroads, sewage systems, waste managements, etc are all done by trucking. What these protesters buy in the supermarket may very well be "transited" through a German or French town at some point.
> 
> Transit traffic is a fact of life and without it the economy stops. Get over it. We don't live in a pre-industrial era anymore where villages and towns were entirely self-sufficient in their needs.


I never said that transit is not necessary. It is definitely.

Anyway as there has been such a regulation already that didn't allow trucks to use A12 I highly doubt that it would be a reason for an economical collapse. By the way, goods can be transported by train, too, especially on that route. There is a parallel (and not too bad) railway all the way from Munich to Verona. 

They wanted to set a sign that they aren't satisfied with the situation and they do have the right to say it in the way they want.
And it is not only the right of the peole in Tyrol but in every democratic country.


----------



## threo2k

It looks amazing.


----------



## PhirgataZFs1694

stickedy said:


> Yes, it has been built. But currently the old tube is rebuild until next year. So you drive currently through the new tube.
> 
> See http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfändertunnel


Thank you very much for your information!:cheers:


----------



## hofburg

this makes a nice desktop background, if somebody wants... 


2012-10-17-337 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


----------



## threo2k

hofburg said:


> this makes a nice desktop background, if somebody wants...
> 
> 
> 2012-10-17-337 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr



Nice!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*S10 Mühlviertler Schnellstraße*

Construction of the second tube of the Tunnel Neumarkt (north of Linz) officially started on Sunday. The tunnel passes under the town of Neumarkt and the B310 highway runs through one tube of it. It will be part of the S10 expressway, and the second tube will be constructed. The first tube opened September 21, 2003.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A2 Süd Autobahn*

The widening of A2 south of Wien (Vienna) has been completed between Baden and Kottingbrunn. The motorway has been widened to 2x4 lanes, and the 8-lane section now extends 8 kilometers further south to Kottingbrunn. It is the widest motorway of Austria and serves an urbanized corridor between Wien and Wiener Neustadt. This section carries approximately 100.000 vehicles per day.


----------



## Verso

^^ Is that some new signage? Where are all the ovals?


----------



## JackFrost

how much time did they need for the widening?

EDIT: just found it -> http://noe.orf.at/news/stories/2555649/


----------



## Luki_SL

^^Is there any speed limits on the new section of A2 motorway? There is often speed limits (80km/h, 100km/h) on A2 at urban area.


----------



## JackFrost

http://motorways-exitlists.com/

according to this not always reliable page: no.


----------



## mcarling

Any plans to widen any parts of the A4 near Vienna?


----------



## Road_UK

What would be the point of that?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That part of A4 handles almost 90.000 vehicles per day, which is very high for 2x2 lanes.


----------



## keber

Which part? After Schwechat traffic is pretty normal for 2x2.


----------



## Attus

Sorry, could we speak more precise? The motorway until the airport has 2×3 lanes, if I remember correctly. In which point is 90,000 measured?


----------



## Road_UK

There is hardly ever congestion there. Only after major accidents.


----------



## cinxxx

I would like to see better surface on the A4, especially towards Hungary.
It's not one of the best I've seen in Austria.


----------



## keber

Attus said:


> Sorry, could we speak more precise? The motorway until the airport has 2×3 lanes, if I remember correctly. In which point is 90,000 measured?


2x3 is only between S1 interchange and airport (7 km) and more than adequate (signage is another story however). It is more congested on 2x2 from S1 toward A23 in the city but this is probably to be changed after S1 is done between Schwechat to S1/S2 on the other side of the Donau river. SO A4 actually doesn't need any widenings.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I doubt if the S1 east of Wien will actually relieve A4 of a substantial amount of traffic. I think it will have an impact on A23, but less on A4, because there will be no east-west connections north of the Donau River until you reach Süßenbrunn. A spur is planned from future S1 west towards the city, but it's not planned all the way to A23/S2, and it's too far north to connect to A22.

So, if you get from A4 and you want to go to the northern part of Wien, A4-A23/A22 will still be the only viable option, unless you want to drive on urban streets from S1. It would be different if A22 was extended southeast to S1, but that seems very unlikely at this point. This is also because they rightly don't want A22 to become a major route for through traffic (S1 is designed for that).



There is a lot of industry along the A4 corridor, plus it's the only connection from the city to the airport. On the other hand, there is not a large volume of trucks on this part of A4, because east-west through traffic uses S1 to bypass the city on the south.


----------



## keber

I don't see much problem in A4, more in A4-A23 interchange, which was not designed for such high traffic. Widening of A4 without appropriate (and very costly) reconstruction of that interchange probably won't have much influence.


----------



## hofburg

seems like people are actually aware of new Asfinag traffic jam policy. here is my video:






it was funny later though, when 3 lanes went to 2, vehicles kept driving in 3 lanes (trucks on shoulder), and it was a mess. I guess the middle queue didn't know whom to merge with, and they just kept driving.


----------



## KingNick

Well, that is really a situation where I would not know what to do either and there is also no solution to such a situation in the law.


----------



## hofburg

amybody knows why there is a 100 limit on this short section?

http://maps.google.si/maps?saddr=A2...;FaLtxgIdEqvTAA&t=h&mra=dme&mrsp=1&sz=15&z=14


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Lärmschutz?


----------



## hofburg

might be. but its really very short.


----------



## Verso

Could be because of Tschinowitsch and Turdanitsch. :shifty: Hey, there's a Triglavstraße.


----------



## hofburg

LOL, didn't even notice


----------



## bogdymol

hofburg said:


> amybody knows why there is a 100 limit on this short section?
> 
> http://maps.google.si/maps?saddr=A2...;FaLtxgIdEqvTAA&t=h&mra=dme&mrsp=1&sz=15&z=14


I noticed that when I drove there. It might be because there are some mantainance roads there for the motorway (including 2 turning points for mantainance cars).


----------



## rheintram

hofburg said:


> it was funny later though, when 3 lanes went to 2, vehicles kept driving in 3 lanes (trucks on shoulder), and it was a mess. I guess the middle queue didn't know whom to merge with, and they just kept driving.


That's how it's supposed to work. Three lanes: Left lane all cars to the left side of the lane. Middle and right lane move as far right as possible but stay in two columns.


----------



## hofburg

you missed _'when 3 lanes went to 2'_


----------



## rheintram

Sorry mixed it up, thought it was just the other way around. My bad.


----------



## hofburg

no problem


----------



## hofburg

_nebel_ in Salzachtal


2012-11-28-506 by d.hofburg, on Flickr

Salzburg, taken with my phone


2012-11-28-511 by d.hofburg, on Flickr


----------



## Verso

^^ What's usually your average speed on A10? I assume it's not that much.


----------



## hofburg

now not much, there are quite some works. I get barely 100kmh for whole route (NG-S).


----------



## Verso

Yeah, A10 is nice, but not exactly fast.


----------



## hofburg

nice winter views A10


2012-12-12-601 by d.hofburg, on Flickr


2012-12-12-602 by d.hofburg, on Flickr


2012-12-12-603 by d.hofburg, on Flickr


2012-12-12-604 by d.hofburg, on Flickr


----------



## threo2k

absolutely amazing.. I have drive on this road many times, but only in summertimes though .. I would gladely be happy to drive here on winter too!


----------



## g.spinoza

I drove there only once, in winter... I remember my car thermometer reading -11°C at the tunnel toll booth


----------



## Road_UK

That's what it is now here. Supposed to get warm weather up to - 3 this week.


----------



## bogdymol

Nice pictures cinxxx!

Which was the usual speed limit on S6? How is the road? I will drive on it in February next year (if the world doesn't end today :lol.


----------



## cinxxx

Speed limit is 130, but I think it was lower on wet conditions, but there were also some very curvy sections on S6 and S35. Also lots of tunnels, very nice road.

We returned on the A2, but it was night and fog, so I didn't see much.
On A2 there is also a section with many curves.


----------



## Des

I drove through the new tube of the Pfändertunnel, I assume they are now renovating the old one before opening it up to the public. Does anyone know when traffic can use the full 2x2 setup?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Summer next year.


----------



## Corvinus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Summer next year.


That would be an important progress for Switzerland -> Hungary trips  since when the tunnel is jammed, Bregenz thru routes (for those trying to circumvent it) are at least twice as jammed ...


----------



## Qracz3k

@cinxxx
Great quality of pictures inside tunnels, probably one of the best I've ever seen. I can feel the speed of your car. Great job!


----------



## bogdymol

After entering Austria on A4 from Hungary there are many *Rettungsgasse* signs on the autobahn:










Entering Vienna:










Aaaaaaand... Rettungsgasse in action before Vienna because of congestion:



















Of course that a Romanian (from Oltenia region ) doesn't know about this _Rettun-what_? thing...





































Wien.


----------



## PLH

To be honest these signs are worthless not only for foreigners, but also for an average Austrian.

They should be also written at least in English and provide a clear graphic description as of how to act in case of a traffic jam.


----------



## bogdymol

The next pictures are from motorways near Wien (A22 - A23 - A2).


----------



## bogdymol

Motorway exit inside a tunnel:


----------



## bogdymol




----------



## Verso

bogdymol said:


>


2× Maribor 


As for the _Rettungsgasse_, I think it's a bit silly to drive like that every time there's a traffic jam. If there's an ambulance approaching, you can easily move aside. :dunno:


----------



## JackFrost

^^exactly. and therefore i just dont give a sh*t about rettungsgasse. i am not willing to do this ridiculous bullsh*t every morning/evening when i go/come to/from work. if i get sued someday, ill pay happily...

there are way enough signs in vienna (and austria) to tell you if its just a traffic jam or an accident that slows down the traffic.


----------



## hofburg

nice pics! thanks
you were stalking that guy from Maribor


----------



## keber

bogdymol said:


>


Clutter, clutter, clutter ... hno:

I don't understand why they don't make bigger boards if they already want do duplicate and triplicate all the written stuff. I always found most signage around Wien to be much too confusing.


----------



## mcarling

keber said:


> I always found most signage around Wien to be much too confusing.


The Austrian signage, especially around Vienna, is some of the worst I've seen anywhere in the world.


----------



## Verso

bogdymol said:


>


3× I, SLO, D; 4× A23


----------



## bogdymol

I also have some pictures made by night from Wien motorways:


----------



## rower2000

mcarling said:


> The Austrian signage, especially around Vienna, is some of the worst I've seen anywhere in the world.


The Austrian signage would be OK, if those morons-in-charge would adhere to the guidelines published in the RVS (max two destinations plus the next exit on the main lanes, max two destinations on the exit arrow). But they tend to quadruple the allowed number of destinations in the Vienna area :bash:.
http://htlwiki.net/index.php?title=RVS_05.02.13_Beschilderung_und_Wegweisung_auf_Autobahnen


----------



## JackFrost

they tend to forget cities too: the city of wels is nowhere mentioned on A1 (nearly 60000 inhabitants), first sign mentioning wels is at A1/A7 interchange near linz. also A25 appears nowhere on A1 until linz.


----------



## Road_UK

Jack_Frost said:


> they tend to forget cities too: the city of wels is nowhere mentioned on A1 (nearly 60000 inhabitants), first sign mentioning wels is at A1/A7 interchange near linz. also A25 appears nowhere on A1 until linz.


That's because key cities are Salzburg, Linz and Vienna.


----------



## JackFrost

still, somehow strange to me. its a big city. and also a very important city for logistics. for example the city of sopron in hungary is about the same size as wels, and it is signed on M1 everywhere, although the closest (hungarian) motorway exit is 90 kilometers away.


----------



## Road_UK

Let's take the M1 in England for example: all major cities along the motorway are: London, St Albans, Luton, Milton Keynes, Northampton, Coventry, Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield, Barnsley, Wakefield and Leeds, with branches to Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Bradford and Hull. All places with a population over 50.000 I'd say. It would look pretty messy on the roadsigns starting in either London or Leeds.


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## ChrisZwolle

How significant a city is depends on where other significant cities are. In case of Wels it's sort of overshadowed by larger Linz. If Wels was somewhere between Salzburg and Villach it would have likely been signed earlier.


----------



## x-type

about Rettungsgasse: if you are in right lane, are you supposed to move onto SOS lane, or just rightmost at your driving lane?


----------



## 3naranze

*Rettungsgasse.com*

See this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1UbZFYuPEE&feature=player_embedded

also see http://www.asfinag.at/was-ist-die-rettungsgasse


----------



## Road_UK

x-type said:


> about Rettungsgasse: if you are in right lane, are you supposed to move onto SOS lane, or just rightmost at your driving lane?


You're supposed to straddle righthand / shoulder.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

rower2000 said:


> The Austrian signage would be OK, if those morons-in-charge would adhere to the guidelines published in the RVS (max two destinations plus the next exit on the main lanes, max two destinations on the exit arrow). But they tend to quadruple the allowed number of destinations in the Vienna area :bash:.
> http://htlwiki.net/index.php?title=RVS_05.02.13_Beschilderung_und_Wegweisung_auf_Autobahnen


Interesting read... 

My main pet peeve;

* use of both Eng- and Mittelschrift
* use of cursive letters
* use of various letter sizes (up to 5 is possible)

And especially a combination of these.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> How significant a city is depends on where other significant cities are. In case of Wels it's sort of overshadowed by larger Linz. If Wels was somewhere between Salzburg and Villach it would have likely been signed earlier.


True, Wels is overshadowed by larger Linz. OTOH, you won't see any sign for Klagenfurt in Ljubljana, only smaller Villach, because it's a more important road junction. Klagenfurt only appears by Kranj.


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> Interesting read...
> 
> My main pet peeve;
> 
> * use of both Eng- and Mittelschrift
> * use of cursive letters
> * use of various letter sizes (up to 5 is possible)
> 
> And especially a combination of these.


They are changing things over to mittelschrift now. All new signs have them here. Just like the way they are changing the signs over in the Netherlands, where you have a strange mishmash of arrows up-arrows down and the mixture of designs and layout.


----------



## bogdymol

I know that most of you around here are complaining about road signage in Austria, but to be honest, after driving many km in Austria I didn't have any problems understanding the signs. You are right, if we take a closer look on my pics we can all see that it's a little bit messy compared to other countries, but it's not that bad...


----------



## Qwert

bogdymol said:


> I know that most of you around here are complaining about road signage in Austria, but to be honest, after driving many km in Austria I didn't have any problems understanding the signs. You are right, if we take a closer look on my pics we can all see that it's a little bit messy compared to other countries, but it's not that bad...


After driving many km in Austria you are not dependent on the singage, you know where and how to drive. But the singage must be clear even for a driver who is in Vienna for the first time.


----------



## mcarling

Qwert said:


> After driving many km in Austria you are not dependent on the singage, you know where and how to drive. But the singage must be clear even for a driver who is in Vienna for the first time.


Exactly! I lived in Vienna for a year and I am able to navigate the area only because I already have some knowledge of the area. When I have to go someplace new to me, as happened a few months ago, I first have to carefully study the route I mean to take, and then try to read the signs as I go. It rarely works the first time because the signs usually indicate places a foreigner would never be able to associate with the intended destination. It's easier for an English speaker to navigate Shanghai than Vienna.


----------



## rower2000

mcarling said:


> Exactly! I lived in Vienna for a year and I am able to navigate the area only because I already have some knowledge of the area. When I have to go someplace new to me, as happened a few months ago, I first have to carefully study the route I mean to take, and then try to read the signs as I go. It rarely works the first time because the signs usually indicate places a foreigner would never be able to associate with the intended destination. It's easier for an English speaker to navigate Shanghai than Vienna.


To be honest, the same applies IMHO to Switzerland. They also tend to over-cram the motorway signs, and the off-motorway signage can be very hard to follow (especially within Zurich).

My pet peeve on the Austrian signage is the overuse of useless road numbers. IMHO, it's simply not necessary to sign Linz (A21 A1) as long as you are on A23. A21 only becomes relevant once you are approaching the A23/A2/A21/S1 intersection - then it should be signed A21 Linz (again, without the A1). This just overcrowds the already overcrowded signs even more.

However, the phenomenon of "Dorfkaiser", or village emperors, as we call them, is pretty widespread within Austria - meaning, every such Dorfkaiser wants to read the name of his town on a motorway exitsign. I once tried to reason per e-mail with the responsible guys at Asfinag, they even promised to look into the matter (the signage at Knoten Eibesbrunn coming from Brno, where Graz is signed VERY prone to call for misunderstandings). However, I doubt anything has changed there...


----------



## x-type

rower2000 said:


> To be honest, the same applies IMHO to Switzerland. They also tend to over-cram the motorway signs, and the off-motorway signage can be very hard to follow (especially within Zurich).
> .


maybe, but there is huge difference between A and CH signs: CH has probably one of aestheticly the most clear signs, while A has quite a mess with arrows, numbers, fonts, allignment...


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## ChrisZwolle

ASFiNAG does have a handbook with _Fernziele_ and _Bereichsziele_ (control cities) but I doubt whether they have any rules about _Nahziele_ (nearby destinations) which appear on exit signs. 

Sometimes the list of _Nahziele_ is a bit too long considering they are displayed only once (only the exit name itself is displayed at all signs in the _Zeichenkette_ at a motorway exit.)


----------



## Sunfuns

If I drive somewhere for the first time I use navigation and then signs matter not :lol:

I've been in Vienna with a car only once and it worked well enough.


----------



## A11 LJUBLJANA

In A11 is very bad in July. There are a lot of "Kyle's vans" and you stay 1 hour (near Karawanken) in a traffic-jam. and to Obala is better to go via Italy


----------



## Falusi

What are "Kyle's vans"?


----------



## A11 LJUBLJANA

Falusi said:


> What are "Kyle's vans"?


Campers. I took this termin from Kick Buttowski


----------



## A11 LJUBLJANA

It is always in A11 in direction to KarawTunn


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## Falusi

Understood, so they are camping on the motorway.


----------



## A11 LJUBLJANA

Falusi said:


> Understood, so they are camping on the motorway.


No but there are a lot of campers-driving houses


----------



## Road_UK

You mean caravans? (Wohnwagen)


----------



## A11 LJUBLJANA

Road_UK said:


> You mean caravans? (Wohnwagen)


 yeah


----------



## Verso

Caravans, campervans, motorhomes, they're all there (as well as cars and trucks).


----------



## Falusi

A1: Loosdorf - A21(Knoten Steinhäusl)


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Nice video kay:

I really like how you are "playing" with the road signs.


----------



## hofburg

very good quality!  what your video editing software?


----------



## rower2000

Falusi said:


> A1: Loosdorf - A21(Knoten Steinhäusl)


Excellent vid! Only one comment: while in the late 1990s and early 2000s all of A1 was refurbished, only the section between A21 and A8/A9 (Voralpenkreuz) was widened to 3+3 - Voralpenkreuz-Salzburg Nord (I think it's Nord, might be another exit around Salzburg) is still 2+2.


----------



## Falusi

Thanks!

@hofburg Adobe Premiere pro.

@rower2000 Thanks, corrected it. Dunno why I wrote A10


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## Road_UK

rower2000 said:


> Excellent vid! Only one comment: while in the late 1990s and early 2000s all of A1 was refurbished, only the section between A21 and A8/A9 (Voralpenkreuz) was widened to 3+3 - Voralpenkreuz-Salzburg Nord (I think it's Nord, might be another exit around Salzburg) is still 2+2.


From A1-A10 interchange it's 3x3.


----------



## Falusi

A21: Knoten Steinhäusl(A1) - Knoten Vösendorf(A2/S1)


----------



## Energy2003

i found an interesting PDF. no matter why it was published, but its interesting for those who like the subject: 

its about a tunnel who passes a/my town and will be closed for cleaning during the night.
It shows the different steps to the workers how to close the tunnel and bring the cars to the bypass via the town: 

http://www.vol.at/2013/01/amberg_sperre.pdf

_2 sites for 2 sides  (for both entrances to the tunnel)_


----------



## A11 LJUBLJANA

Road_UK said:


> From A1-A10 interchange it's 3x3.


Funny- shows GR TR


----------



## Road_UK

A11 LJUBLJANA said:


> Funny- shows GR TR


Yeah. In case you get lost on your way to Turkey, Greece and up until not long ago Singapore.


----------



## vladjack

*Problems with vignette*

Hi,
I would like to hear your opinion on this unplesant incident I had in Austria recently. I entered Austria from the direction of Czech town Znojmo. The area around the border was quite empty, so we didn't find the place to purchase the vignette. We went on into Austria and after a brief drive on normal road (not a highway), the highway A22 started. There was big vignette sign and the Raststation right after that.
So I stopped there with the single goal to purchase the vignette. I went to the Cash desk and as I was buying viignette, an uniformed man came and took me from there. Then they took me to their official car, where they demanded 120,00 EURO. I had no choice but to pay. They knew very well that I stopped just for the vignette and they agreed this is unfair, but they kept saying "That's the law." 
We have been really upset and dissapointed. I have sent an official complaint to ASFINAG company and even Austrian embassy in Montenegro. They both provided kind answers they were sorry for the incovinience, but: "That's the law."
From my point of view, I keep thinking of this as official trap or fraud.
I can not understand their motivation to capture me at the Cash desk at the starting point of the highway, when they clearly understand that I stopped just for the vignette.
So, what do you think about this?


----------



## KingNick

Which Raststation are we talking about? I'll have a look into what the law has to say about this.


----------



## mcarling

vladjack said:


> So, what do you think about this?


I think it's evil.


----------



## Fane40

vladjack said:


> Hi,
> I would like to hear your opinion on this unplesant incident I had in Austria recently. I entered Austria from the direction of Czech town Znojmo. The area around the border was quite empty, so we didn't find the place to purchase the vignette. We went on into Austria and after a brief drive on normal road (not a highway), the highway A22 started. There was big vignette sign and the Raststation right after that.
> So I stopped there with the single goal to purchase the vignette. I went to the Cash desk and as I was buying viignette, an uniformed man came and took me from there. Then they took me to their official car, where they demanded 120,00 EURO. I had no choice but to pay. They knew very well that I stopped just for the vignette and they agreed this is unfair, but they kept saying "That's the law."
> We have been really upset and dissapointed. I have sent an official complaint to ASFINAG company and even Austrian embassy in Montenegro. They both provided kind answers they were sorry for the incovinience, but: "That's the law."
> From my point of view, I keep thinking of this as official trap or fraud.
> I can not understand their motivation to capture me at the Cash desk at the starting point of the highway, when they clearly understand that I stopped just for the vignette.
> So, what do you think about this?


I'm not surprised by your point of view.
I always heard that the austrian police, and in general their population, are the most racist in the world (not against german of course).
And I would like to add a story of a portuguese colleague who, a few years ago, was in Austria and when he was arrested along the road, the policeman found nothing against him, preferred to threw his papers on the road instead to give him in hands.
French are maybe unpleasant, but we have found more disrespectful.
I don't know any austrian, but you can tell your feeling...


----------



## hofburg

that's dissapointing. so far austrian police stopped me once, and they even asked for id card in slovene language. I guess it depends.


----------



## KingNick

It's one thing being stopped by the police and another by ASFINAG. Those guys are just there to check Vignettes and nothing else and I suppose they get bonuses based on how many people they catch. If it was really the A22 you found yourself suddenly onto, I have no mercy with you, since the A22 is already too far from the boarder to come up with the excuse I couldn't find a gas station.


----------



## jachcemjest

It depends on time of the day. For example, when I was driving from Prague to Salzburg in the night (B310, A7, A1) - I was in Austria around 2am - there was no gas station opened where you could buy a vignette. Only few automatic ones. The sign on the border says taht vignette vending point is Agip station in Freistadt - there is no Agip today there. Other stations are closed mostly from midnight to 5am. So the first station where you can buy a vignette on that rout is Ansfelden (or something like that) on A1.


----------



## Falusi

Southern sector of S1:


----------



## vladjack

Thanks for answers. Everything happened at the Raststation at the junction of S3 and A22. I can't remember the name. So I drove about 20km on the Schnelstrasse S3 before stopping to buy a vignette. But the main point is they captured me at the Cash desk, where I was buying a vignette. They kept repeating: "We know that's unfair, but that's the law."
Back home, a friend told me they probably have quota system given by ASFINAG. If that is the case, I can understand their motivation better, but then I can call it "an instititional trap".


----------



## cinxxx

Had you driven further, or maybe stopped at a gas station in a village, the chance of no fine would have been maybe smaller


----------



## vladjack

cinxxx,
yes, if you just drive without vignette through Austria, the chance of being caught is very low. They almost never stop you. Instead, it seems they mostly catch people who stop to buy the vignette. And they mostly do that at the stops near the border.


----------



## cinxxx

I know, i drove last year all the way from Linz on the A7 until A1 without the sticker. I stopped in Linz at a gas station before the motorway entry, but they only had for 2 months and I wanted for 10 days. Also had no GPS, so I drove without. After reaching the A1, I took the first exit, and there was a gas station on the connecting road, must have been this route http://goo.gl/maps/VzB2T

No one stopped me, and didn't receive anything in my mailbox


----------



## pumpikatze

vladjack said:


> Hi,
> I would like to hear your opinion on this unplesant incident I had in Austria recently.


I am sorry you had such an unpleasant incident in Austria. I also fully understand your disappointment and anger....I made the same experience simply by making a formal mistake with the vignette and I was forced to pay. It is a long story....too long to tell. I asked the Automobile Club and some lawyers about that, and all I was told is that the ASFINAG is totally right by law and so it is in your case. I am sorry again for you.



Fane40 said:


> I'm not surprised by your point of view.
> I always heard that the austrian police, and in general their population, are the most racist in the world (not against german of course).


My friend, that´s an absolutely stupid comment (sorry for offending you but this time I cant hold back).
Who told you the ASFINAG (or "police") made him pay just because he isn´t Austrian? I can tell you for sure they dont make any difference - I am Austrian myself and had a similar incident but even without driving one single kilometer on the highway (too long to tell the story). They wanted me to pay 120 Euros. I told them I wouldnt pay but write a statement to ASFINAG and explain my situation. They even suggested to do so. And finally I got 400 Euros to pay. 
Also regarding your words "not against german of course": Germans (from Germany) are those people affected the most when it is about paying for not having a Vignette.

I can tell you that there is racism in Austria - the same racism like everywhere else in Europe or even in the world...and it´s a shame. But this case has nothing to do with racism. It is just about the ASFINAG being extremely strict and of course make everybody pay whenever they can.


----------



## Surel

vladjack said:


> Hi,
> I would like to hear your opinion on this unplesant incident I had in Austria recently. I entered Austria from the direction of Czech town Znojmo. The area around the border was quite empty, so we didn't find the place to purchase the vignette. We went on into Austria and after a brief drive on normal road (not a highway), the highway A22 started. There was big vignette sign and the Raststation right after that.
> So I stopped there with the single goal to purchase the vignette. I went to the Cash desk and as I was buying viignette, an uniformed man came and took me from there. Then they took me to their official car, where they demanded 120,00 EURO. I had no choice but to pay. They knew very well that I stopped just for the vignette and they agreed this is unfair, but they kept saying "That's the law."
> We have been really upset and dissapointed. I have sent an official complaint to ASFINAG company and even Austrian embassy in Montenegro. They both provided kind answers they were sorry for the incovinience, but: "That's the law."
> From my point of view, I keep thinking of this as official trap or fraud.
> I can not understand their motivation to capture me at the Cash desk at the starting point of the highway, when they clearly understand that I stopped just for the vignette.
> So, what do you think about this?


I would say that if the road where vignette is required starts at the border and continues the road that you are taking from the other side of the border, it should be made vignette free to the first place where you could buy a vignette. If a desired vignette was not available there, they should provide you with a proof of intent of buying a vignette and you should be free to go to the next nearest place on the same road where a vignette could be bought.

When such a road starts inlands, the situation is more complicated and basically you should have bought it before entering such a road.

That anyone is waiting for the people that stop to buy a vignette in order to have easy work is indeed uncivilized. The Asfinag should be busy watching the road traffic that ignores the rule, not punishing those that clearly intend to buy the vignette and respect the rule.

Thx for the experience I think it could help refus to talk with them untill I would buy the vignette and then I would show it to them and tell them to **** off.


----------



## cinxxx

Surel said:


> Thx for the experience I think it could help refus to talk with them untill I would buy the vignette and then I would show it to them and tell them to **** off.


Yeah, but I think you must have it on your windshield first


----------



## Energy2003

btw: it´s possible to buy the vignette even outside Austria:

http://www.asfinag.at/c/document_li...040-0869-41c8-bec6-17117b760580&groupId=10136

btw: since we have the vignette since about 15 years the austrian state seems to think that nowadays everyone who drives around knows that !


----------



## cinxxx

^^of course it is.
Last time I bought it with the Slovenian too, somewhere from a gas station on the A9 near Munich


----------



## Stahlsturm

Energy2003 said:


> btw: it´s possible to buy the vignette even outside Austria:
> 
> http://www.asfinag.at/c/document_li...040-0869-41c8-bec6-17117b760580&groupId=10136
> 
> btw: since we have the vignette since about 15 years the austrian state seems to think that nowadays everyone who drives around knows that !


Yeah, I don't know about the Czech Republic but here in Germany you can buy your vignette at gas stations 200 km before you get to the border and it's also announced by big signs that they sell the things 24/7.


----------



## jachcemjest

Stahlsturm said:


> Yeah, I don't know about the Czech Republic but here in Germany you can buy your vignette at gas stations 200 km before you get to the border and it's also announced by big signs that they sell the things 24/7.


You can buy it in Czech republic, too. But usually they charge 50% more...


----------



## Stahlsturm

jachcemjest said:


> You can buy it in Czech republic, too. But usually they charge 50% more...


They do ? :down:
In Germany they have to sell it at the price the Austrians set.


----------



## g.spinoza

jachcemjest said:


> You can buy it in Czech republic, too. But usually they charge 50% more...


I don't think this is legal, strictly speaking.


----------



## jachcemjest

Exchange rate magic... Not uncommon to have Euro for 30-35 CZK. Standard rate is something like 25 or 26. Last time I bought one in Czech republic was in 2011, official price 7.9EUR, price on that Agip station: 269CZK what was ca 10.8EUR back then...


----------



## vladjack

Thanks for your answers. I liked the post of pumpikatze.
After rethining the incident, I think I made a small mistake of giving too many credits to Austria. I visited Austria 6-7 times before and had an impression of prosperous, well-organized country that is fair towards its own citizens and tourists. In particluar, I thought police wouldn't stop you without need, they wouldn't fine you for some stupid formalities, etc.

This time I had a chance to experience another side of the country. I think what they done is dusguisting, the most unfair fine I have ever paid (and I drove all over Central and Eastern Europe, Balkans, Russia, Tunisia, Korea, etc.).

It would look better to me if they would just demand a bribe to let me go, without any laws etc. I hate when people do obviously wrong things in the name of law. 

Obviously, these officers could have waitted until I finish the transaction at the Cash desk. If I wouldn't buy a vignette there, it would be completely ok to fine me before leaving Raststation. But they knew I stopped for the vignette, so they were running after me and grabed my hand.


----------



## KingNick

How did they know that? All they knew is that you had no Vignette on your windshield 50 km from the border. You could have just bought the sticker because you saw them checking your car in their Asfinag vests. They don't know that.


----------



## vladjack

In order to make it clear how I feel about my incident, let me tell one very normal experience from Milano, Italy. I was riding in the tram. I bought the ticket and I knew I am supposed to convalidate it. So, I was standing by the machine, trying to press it somehow to convalidate my ticket, but could not figure out how the machine is functioning. After couple of trials, I thought that convalidating machine may be broken and went throughout the tram to another. I was trying to convalidate my ticket, as controllers came into the tram. They found me pulling mye ticket in the machine and guess what they did? Helped me to convalidate the ticket.
Normal? Reasonable? Understandable? Human behavior?
Against the law? Supporting delinquency? Unprofessional?


----------



## mcarling

vladjack said:


> In order to make it clear how I feel about my incident, let me tell one very normal experience from Milano, Italy. I was riding in the tram. I bought the ticket and I knew I am supposed to convalidate it. So, I was standing by the machine, trying to press it somehow to convalidate my ticket, but could not figure out how the machine is functioning. After couple of trials, I thought that convalidating machine may be broken and went throughout the tram to another. I was trying to convalidate my ticket, as controllers came into the tram. They found me pulling mye ticket in the machine and guess what they did? Helped me to convalidate the ticket.
> Normal? Reasonable? Understandable? Human behavior?
> Against the law? Supporting delinquency? Unprofessional?


I think the Italian inspectors who helped you to validate your ticket were reasonable and did the right thing. I lived in Vienna for a year and I know a few Austrians who would think that the Italian ticket inspectors who helped you committed a serious crime against the state and should be punished. However, not all Austrians have such a mentality. Some are very reasonable.


----------



## pumpikatze

I am happy you come up with that example because I wanted to use a similar one as a comparison. For example if you want to ride a tram but you dont know where to buy the ticket and enter it without ticket because you thought you would find a ticket machine inside the tram - but then it turns out there is no ticket machine, but you see a tobacco shop (where they sell tickets) right at the next stop and you decide to leave the tram and enter that tobacco store. The same moment officers from public transportations see you leaving and stop you, give you a fine for using the tram without ticket. 
Some would understand and support you being fined, some wouldnt agree with the officers and find that unfair. One would think you tried to be honest, another one would think you tried to ride without paying. Law would say you did wrong because you entered the tram without knowing whether you could buy a ticket there or not. Same for the highways of stupid ASFINAG. In case you dont have a valid ticket BEFORE entering the autobahn you are not even allowed to use it, not even if you stop at the next gas station to buy one. It is even more clever not to stop because the chance of being caught is much lower then. I myself find the methods of ASFINAG extremly disgusting and since I had that incident in 2007 I kinda hate that company.

The vignette-system is quite tricky. You have the chance to use the autobahn without paying (and many people actually do that) but if they catch you there is absolutely no mercy.
In other countries there are toll stations and you have absolutely no chance but to pay. 
Both have advantages and disadvantages.

Regarding Italy:
I was fined last year in Pisa because I turned right at one corner, saw the sign saying "Zona traffica limitata" (and additionally told that it was forbidden to enter here), turned around and drove away. But there was a camera, and the camera caught me crossing a line when turning there. Nobody stopped me but a few weeks later I got a fine from Italy. No mercy. Now thats what I call a (tourist) trap.


----------



## cinxxx

I found that German control officers are pretty reasonable. I was once riding the train from Nürnberg to Freising on a working day. This means the Bayern Ticket is only valid from 9 o'clock. I had to buy a normal ticket since leaving around 8. But behind me a young couple stepped inside some 10 minutes before 9 in Regensburg. When the controller came, he asked them if they had a ticket for those 10 miuntes before 9 besides the Bayern Ticket. They lied that they already thrown it away, don't really think the controller bought it, he was a little bitchy and explained that they should normally get a fine and all, but he will let them go this time, but not next time.


----------



## vladjack

Thanks, guys, your answers help me to understand. I lost 120,00 EURO, but got a bit smarter.
This converstation made me remember one example that I found intriguing. First time I visited Austria was 2002. Before that I visited several Eastern European countries, Arab countries, South Korea and Southern Italy. Austria was the first really wealthy place and I was quite impressed. I enjoyed my time in Vienna and Graz.
So, I met one girl from Lithania in Graz. She was a student and additionally worked as a waitress in the evenings. I asked her how she liked Austria and she answered: "Well, yes, Austria is ok and nice, of course, but I don't really like it. In fact, I plan to move to another country after I graduate."
I asked: "Why, what's the problem? Country is beautiful, organized and your University is quite good and you get fairly paid for your work in cafe?"
"Yes, that's ok."
"People in Austria are kind and friendly? Looks like pretty good place to live."
"Well, yes."
"Do you feel any discrimination given that you are foreigner?"
"Well, no... Not really."
"So, what's the problem? Try to make me understand."
And she said: "Ok, let me give you just one example. The public transportation in Graz is quite expensive. I need to pay 1,80 EURO for the tram every morning and 1,80 in the evening when I get back to my place. After some time I noticed that controls are not frequent, so it comes out cheaper not to buy tickets, but pay fines occasionally. So, instead of paying 3,60 EURO every day, I just pay 40,00 EURO when controllers catch me and it happens approximatelly once in two months. But when I told this to my colleague and a friend who is Austrian, she said it was wrong, it was not ethical and Austrians could do the same, but they pay the tickets, because that's the rule and immigrants are supposed to do the same instead of taking advantage of holes in the system."
And I said: "Ok, I think I undestand your point. I don't say I agree, but I understand."


----------



## pumpikatze

I understand and agree at the same time. 
Ethical correct or not - I wouldnt focus on that thing. And I especially wouldnt focus on that "immigrant-thing" since I know many Austrians who use the public transport regularly without having a ticket (I did the same occasionally when I was younger). One thing is for sure: Public transport isnt for free. There is a price for it. Whether you pay every single ticket, buy a Monats- or Jahreskarte or pay everytime they catch you - well, do what you want. Just my two cents 

Edit: 
We are pretty OT now. Could someone post a highway-picture to return to topic?


----------



## garethni

vladjack said:


> Thanks, guys, your answers help me to understand. I lost 120,00 EURO, but got a bit smarter.
> This converstation made me remember one example that I found intriguing. First time I visited Austria was 2002. Before that I visited several Eastern European countries, Arab countries, South Korea and Southern Italy. Austria was the first really wealthy place and I was quite impressed. I enjoyed my time in Vienna and Graz.
> So, I met one girl from Lithania in Graz. She was a student and additionally worked as a waitress in the evenings. I asked her how she liked Austria and she answered: "Well, yes, Austria is ok and nice, of course, but I don't really like it. In fact, I plan to move to another country after I graduate."
> I asked: "Why, what's the problem? Country is beautiful, organized and your University is quite good and you get fairly paid for your work in cafe?"
> "Yes, that's ok."
> "People in Austria are kind and friendly? Looks like pretty good place to live."
> "Well, yes."
> "Do you feel any discrimination given that you are foreigner?"
> "Well, no... Not really."
> "So, what's the problem? Try to make me understand."
> And she said: "Ok, let me give you just one example. The public transportation in Graz is quite expensive. I need to pay 1,80 EURO for the tram every morning and 1,80 in the evening when I get back to my place. After some time I noticed that controls are not frequent, so it comes out cheaper not to buy tickets, but pay fines occasionally. So, instead of paying 3,60 EURO every day, I just pay 40,00 EURO when controllers catch me and it happens approximatelly once in two months. But when I told this to my colleague and a friend who is Austrian, she said it was wrong, it was not ethical and Austrians could do the same, but they pay the tickets, because that's the rule and immigrants are supposed to do the same instead of taking advantage of holes in the system."
> And I said: "Ok, I think I undestand your point. I don't say I agree, but I understand."


Or rather than buying two expensive one-hour tickets a day she could have bought a monthly ticket. Having lived in Graz myself that seems a legal and not particularly more expensive thing to do than paying fines on purpose.


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## italystf

vladjack said:


> The public transportation in Graz is quite expensive. I need to pay 1,80 EURO for the tram every morning and 1,80 in the evening when I get back to my place. After some time I noticed that controls are not frequent, so it comes out cheaper not to buy tickets, but pay fines occasionally. So, instead of paying 3,60 EURO every day, I just pay 40,00 EURO when controllers catch me and it happens approximatelly once in two months. But when I told this to my colleague and a friend who is Austrian, she said it was wrong, it was not ethical and Austrians could do the same, but they pay the tickets, because that's the rule and immigrants are supposed to do the same instead of taking advantage of holes in the system."
> And I said: "Ok, I think I undestand your point. I don't say I agree, but I understand."


In Italy many people reason in that way. hno: This works only for city buses, on trains controllers are almost always present.

When I was in Barcelona during my high school trip the teacher (!) suggest us to buy only an underground ticket for every 2 persons and pass through the turnstile in couple close together. There are no controllers onboard after you cross the turnstile. Then we went to the Picasso museum. That day was free of charge but groups weren't allowed. So our teacher told us to enter separately and no talk each other while in line.


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## Penn's Woods

cinxxx said:


> I found that German control officers are pretty reasonable. I was once riding the train from Nürnberg to Freising on a working day. This means the Bayern Ticket is only valid from 9 o'clock. I had to buy a normal ticket since leaving around 8. But behind me a young couple stepped inside some 10 minutes before 9 in Regensburg. When the controller came, he asked them if they had a ticket for those 10 miuntes before 9 besides the Bayern Ticket. They lied that they already thrown it away, don't really think the controller bought it, he was a little bitchy and explained that they should normally get a fine and all, but he will let them go this time, but not next time.


I may as well weigh in at this point....

A friend and I were wandering around Europe (or Western Europe, when it still made a difference) on Eurailpasses in 1986. We were in Munich and I'd read in a sort-of travel-advice book called "How to Europe" (the author was fairly witty, actually, and usually knew what he was talking about) that the pass was valid on public transit in Munich. So off we went on the U-bahn to see I forget what...ticket inspector gets on, comes to us, we show him our passes and he says "that's not a ticket." Didn't fine us, just told us to get off at the next stop and buy tickets. Perfectly reasonable and appropriate.

What's interesting (perhaps) here is, on most American local transit systems (subways, buses, etc., as opposed to suburban trains) the issue doesn't even come up; either you have to pass through a turnstile to enter the station and it's paying your fare (swiping your card, dropping in a token...) that activates the mechanism to let you in; or in buses the driver himself takes the fares. He doesn't handle change, and such, but before the bus pulls away - you can't get on at the back - everyone getting on just drops in their token or shows him their pass. No need for inspectors because if you're on the vehicle you've presumably paid.

I got a free ride on a suburban train two Sundays ago, though. I'd dropped off my car for repairs and was taking the train back in to the city. Ticket offices at suburban train stations aren't open Sundays so the conductors (who'd otherwise just check tickets) were having to sell them to everyone. The train was a bit crowded for a Sunday and there was a family of seven at one end of the car; he was still dealing with them when we got to my stop. (I wasn't the only one he missed.)


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## Penn's Woods

italystf said:


> In Italy many people reason in that way. hno: This works only for city buses, on trains controllers are almost always present.
> 
> When I was in Barcelona during my high school trip the teacher (!) suggest us to buy only an underground ticket for every 2 persons and pass through the turnstile in couple close together. There are no controllers onboard after you cross the turnstile. Then we went to the Picasso museum. That day was free of charge but groups weren't allowed. So our teacher told us to enter separately and no talk each other while in line.


Now that's just not right! :bash:

EDIT: Specifically, for a teacher to actually advise petty law-breaking.


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## vladjack

I have to say that I like this post from italystf. :lol:
I am not sure what to think about this teacher, but somehow I like it. I can't support it completely, but it is funny.


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## mcarling

pumpikatze said:


> I am happy you come up with that example because I wanted to use a similar one as a comparison. For example if you want to ride a tram but you dont know where to buy the ticket and enter it without ticket because you thought you would find a ticket machine inside the tram - but then it turns out there is no ticket machine, but you see a tobacco shop (where they sell tickets) right at the next stop and you decide to leave the tram and enter that tobacco store. The same moment officers from public transportations see you leaving and stop you, give you a fine for using the tram without ticket.


For that to be a valid analogy to the vignette case, the officers would have been waiting in the tobacconist shop to bust people who buy tram tickets.



vladjack said:


> And she said: "Ok, let me give you just one example. The public transportation in Graz is quite expensive. I need to pay 1,80 EURO for the tram every morning and 1,80 in the evening when I get back to my place. After some time I noticed that controls are not frequent, so it comes out cheaper not to buy tickets, but pay fines occasionally. So, instead of paying 3,60 EURO every day, I just pay 40,00 EURO when controllers catch me and it happens approximatelly once in two months. But when I told this to my colleague and a friend who is Austrian, she said it was wrong, it was not ethical and Austrians could do the same, but they pay the tickets, because that's the rule and immigrants are supposed to do the same instead of taking advantage of holes in the system."


In Austria, students younger than 26 are entitled to very cheap monthly public transport passes. However, until recently, the government of Austria only allowed students who were Austrian citizens to buy them. The European Court of Justice ruled that was illegal discrimination (Austria gets busted by the ECJ for illegal discrimination more than any other EU member state -- does that indicate racism?) and ordered Austria make them available to students from all EU member states. Austria knew they would lose the case because they knew what they were doing was illegal, so they stopped this particular form of discrimination as soon as the ECJ decided to hear the case.
The case was: C-147/03 [2005] ECR I-5969


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## Surel

mcarling said:


> In Austria, students younger than 26 are entitled to very cheap monthly public transport passes. However, until recently, the government of Austria only allowed students who were Austrian citizens to buy them. The European Court of Justice ruled that was illegal discrimination (Austria gets busted by the ECJ for illegal discrimination more than any other EU member state -- does that indicate racism?) and ordered Austria make them available to students from all EU member states. Austria knew they would lose the case because they knew what they were doing was illegal, so they stopped this particular form of discrimination as soon as the ECJ decided to hear the case.
> The case was: C-147/03 [2005] ECR I-5969


How come that the Dutch get alonge with their free student OV cards, only to the, guess who, the Dutch...? I guess it is just a legal trick. Thus perhaps if the Austrian authorities asked at the Dutch authorities, they could get along with it as well.

I guess this has to do with whether the discount is defined as non refundable discount (Austrian case), or whether it is defined as a refundable grant (Dutch case).


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## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> Now that's just not right! :bash:
> 
> EDIT: Specifically, for a teacher to actually advise petty law-breaking.


What's the problem? A group is made up of several individuals, so if you are in a group you don't stop being an individual. The rule is stupid and technically, they didn't break it.


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## Penn's Woods

^^The telling-kids-to-go-through-the-turnstile-two-at-a-time bit isn't right.


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## mcarling

Surel said:


> I guess this has to do with whether the discount is defined as non refundable discount (Austrian case), or whether it is defined as a refundable grant (Dutch case).


What do you mean by refundable?


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## Surel

mcarling said:


> What do you mean by refundable?



What I mean is that in Austria you get your discount and no one ever asks the money back. In the Netherlands this discount takes form of a loan that eventually doesnt have to be paid back.

In the Netherlands the students get the discount (in fact they ride for free), but this in fact means that this is done in form of a grant that is either annuled if student finishes the study, or is turned into a loan that has to be repaid if the student fails to finish the study.

EDIT: PS: maybe someone could move last posts into the rest area.


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## pumpikatze

mcarling said:


> For that to be a valid analogy to the vignette case, the officers would have been waiting in the tobacconist shop to bust people who buy tram tickets.


Not exactly. I would say they wouldnt be waiting in but follow him to the tobacco store where he would claim that he just wanted to buy a ticket and then continue using the tram (at the same time admitting he used it before without having a ticket).



mcarling said:


> (Austria gets busted by the ECJ for illegal discrimination more than any other EU member state -- does that indicate racism?)


Suggestive question, isnt it?
Did you experience such a lot of racism during your year of living in Austria? If yes, I honestly regret that.


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## Surel

pumpikatze said:


> Not exactly. I would say they wouldnt be waiting in but follow him to the tobacco store where he would claim that he just wanted to buy a ticket and then continue using the tram (at the same time admitting he used it before without having a ticket).


Not really, the tobacco store would have to be in the tram (or vending machine) and you would be buying the ticked during the ride. You would be ok during the ride, but there would be a conductor standing and waiting at the vending machine that would fine you while you would be buying a ticket there (and validating it there) and would not already have validated ticket at that moment.


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## pumpikatze

I think we are both wrong. 
It has to be that way: At the very moment you are entering the tram you already need to have a validated ticket. Entering without ticket already would be fined.
Using the tram for searching for a place where you can buy a ticket of course would be fined then.

I dont say I´d find that good, but ASFINAG seems to like the idea (and it is probably the only way to handle a Vignette-system).


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## rower2000

OulaL said:


> A question rising from the autobahn-hotels: if one spends a night in such hotel, and the vignette expires during that night, is it ok if a new one is bought in the morning before driving away?
> 
> If not: is it possible to buy the vignette in the evening but mark it so that the validity begins the next day: and so there would be two vignettes in the car during that night?


1. No, it is not. Vignettes expire at 2400 hrs of the last day of validity.

2. Yes, it is. You can have your 10 day or 2 month vignette punched on any desired day (in this case, the next one).

Some additional info to the Asfinag toll enforcement "officers": while they are paid out of the Asfinag budget, they are accredited as law enforcement officers (constrained to toll violations) and sworn in by the state authorities. Thus, they have the authority to use "reasonable force" to execute the responsibilities of public administration designated to them.

For the background, you have to keep in mind that in contrast to Italy or France where toll motorways are truly private, Asfinag is merely a company set up by the Republic of Austria to facilitate financing, maintenance, and tolling of the highway system and the republic holds all shares of the company. Thus, tolls are also not set up by Asfinag itself, but by the Austrian parliament through decrees according to the Bundesstraßen-Mautgesetz 2002 (federal highway toll law of 2002) - therefore, the control and fining of toll violations is indeed an act of public administration and Asfinag enforcement officers are executive officers according to Austrian law.

The problem with these officers - as I have had contact with them - is that they often seem to be people who try to compensate some other shortcomings with their badge, not dissimilar to the TSA security agents on US airports. If vladjack had come across a police officer, he most likely would have gotten off - but with the Asfinag guys, no chance.

However, vladjack, you have driven quite some distance within Austria, and even quite some distance on the tolled network (keep in mind, S3 as a federal expressway is also tolled!). So while it's of course always a damned experience, you should now simply curse yourself for forgetting to buy a vignette, write off the 120 Euro as a lesson learned, and go on with your life .


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## rower2000

pumpikatze said:


> BUT: Only 3 vignettes at the same time on your windscreen - otherwise you will be fined (and be sure, you will be).


That's not true. While Asfinag recommends not to have more than 2 vignettes on at any time to facilitate the control, as soon as you paid the vignette and stuck it onto your windshield the toll is paid and you CANNOT BE FINED. They even say so themselves in a press message from Jan 22nd:


www.asfinag.at said:


> Als Ammenmärchen gilt, dass es strafbar wäre, wenn mehr als zwei österreichische Pickerln gleichzeitig auf der Windschutzscheibe kleben. Es gibt aber die ASFINAG Empfehlung, dass auf der Windschutzscheibe nicht mehr als zwei österreichische Vignetten gleichzeitig vorhanden sein sollten, da aufgrund der Übersichtlichkeit im Fall des Falles eine Mautkontrolle schneller abgewickelt werden kann – dies ist durchaus auch im Sinne der Kunden.





Translation said:


> It is an urban legend that it is illegal to have more than two Austrian stickers on the windscreen at the same time. However, there is a recommendation by ASFINAG that you should keep the number of Austrian vignettes on the windscreen below three, as in this case because of the higher clarity a toll control can be accomplished faster - which is also in favor of the clients.


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## KingNick

It wasn't surel, but you're right.


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## rower2000

KingNick said:


> It wasn't surel, but you're right.


Thanks, fixed it!


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## pumpikatze

rower2000 said:


> That's not true. While Asfinag recommends not to have more than 2 vignettes on at any time to facilitate the control, as soon as you paid the vignette and stuck it onto your windshield the toll is paid and you CANNOT BE FINED. They even say so themselves in a press message from Jan 22nd:


Ok, thank you - didnt know that. Last year I read in some newspaper about a woman who got fined because her parking car was found with more than 3 vignettes in the city (not even close to an autobahn). Must have been a fairy tale then.



> ..aufgrund der Übersichtlichkeit im Fall des Falles einer Mautkontrolle...


Now thats what I call a joke. As if it would be too difficult for the officers to have a quick look at 3 vignettes and find out which one is valid or if there is one that is valid.


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## Energy2003

bogdymol said:


> One question (asked in both Hungarian and Austrian threads):
> 
> At the end of this month I'm going to drive from Romania to Austria (for skiing ). This will not be a problem, but: my girlfriend just got her drivers license last week and I want to let her drive part of the road so that she gains some experience. *Are there any special regulations regarding beginner drivers in your country? Can she drive legally, without any problems?*
> 
> For example, in Romania the only thing is that beginner drivers have to drive -10 km below the speed limit on rural roads (-20 km/h on motorways).


there are some insurance things: 

when you borrow a car or use an austrian car with Vollkasko/ comprehensive coverage there are some restrictiosn regarding the age.

But except the alcohol there aren´t any restrictions on the road itself


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## Energy2003

rower2000 said:


> That's not true. While Asfinag recommends not to have more than 2 vignettes on at any time to facilitate the control, as soon as you paid the vignette and stuck it onto your windshield the toll is paid and you CANNOT BE FINED. They even say so themselves in a press message from Jan 22nd:



for example in switzerland it´s not allowed - the cops told it to me, they wanted to fine me (but im so symphatic that they didn´t)


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## hofburg

uh, I have 4 vignettes on my windshield  too lazy to take them off.


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## vladjack

rower2000 said:


> However, vladjack, you have driven quite some distance within Austria, and even quite some distance on the tolled network (keep in mind, S3 as a federal expressway is also tolled!). So while it's of course always a damned experience, you should now simply curse yourself for forgetting to buy a vignette, write off the 120 Euro as a lesson learned, and go on with your life .


Thanks, yes, I agree.
I think I was too relaxed.
For couple of days I was so furious that I classified that as "a fraud". After this discussion I don't think it was "a fraud".
Still, I think it was unfair and wrong.

I think I have also made one smart thing: I didn't argue with them too much. I was polite and after brief conversation I paid 120,00 EURO and left. This is not very much like me, since I was furious, but the reason was that I was with my family. If I would be alone, I would probably refuse to pay and was ready to be retained, taken to Vienna police or something. However, I knew if I do that, then my kids will stay with mom on the middle of highway in the night. That was the only reason I was quite sustained.

If I would object and refuse to pay, it would probably get more expenisve (in money, energy and time) for me.


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## Fane40

vladjack said:


> Thanks, yes, I agree.
> I think I was too relaxed.
> For couple of days I was so furious that I classified that as "a fraud". After this discussion I don't think it was "a fraud".
> Still, I think it was unfair and wrong.
> 
> I think I have also made one smart thing: I didn't argue with them too much. I was polite and after brief conversation I paid 120,00 EURO and left. This is not very much like me, since I was furious, but the reason was that I was with my family. If I would be alone, I would probably refuse to pay and was ready to be retained, taken to Vienna police or something. However, I knew if I do that, then my kids will stay with mom on the middle of highway in the night. That was the only reason I was quite sustained.
> 
> If I would object and refuse to pay, it would probably get more expenisve (in money, energy and time) for me.



I am with you guy !
But , we don't have the same point of view with some local people.
I agree they can tell they have had similar bad experiences in our countries.
But, when you go in this country ,you must obey. Apologizes don't exist for foreigners here.


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## rower2000

Please don't get me wrong, I quite agree that those Asfinag people should switch on their common sense from time to time. Unfortunately they don't.


vladjack said:


> it would probably get more expenisve (in money, energy and time) for me.


That's for sure . If you refuse to pay the 120 EUR "Ersatzmaut" (substitute toll), violation citation proceedings will be initiated and a fine of 400 to 4000 EUR, depending on the severity of the violation, will be imposed by the authorities. Against this you can go to court but I'm not sure that would be useful...
BTW, from foreigners, the police can demand securities amounting to the maximum possible fine, in this case 4000 EUR, to ensure you do not leave the country to places where the payment cannot be enforced (a so-called "Sicherheitsleistung"). Of course, any amount exceeding the final fine will be refunded.


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## pumpikatze

Well done, Vladjack. Even if it is unfair it was the right decision to pay. Anything else would cost you more money and in the end some days of your life. I totally agree with you since we suffered the same injustice.

Fane is still into that racism-thing hno:
Someone who is willing to keep his prejudices, doesnt matter which arguments you come up with.


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## cinxxx

Hello! One question (that I asked also on the other 2 threads), what is the best way to reach the Tripoint between Slovakia, Austria and Hungary? I will be driving from Hungary. Can you drive till there, is there a parking?

Thanks! :cheers2:


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## KingNick

A4 on the section VIE - Fischamend will be extended to 3 lanes each direction. Construction is scheduled to start next year.










http://www.asfinag.at/strassennetz/...ArticlesDevelopment_INSTANCE_7vB9_version=1.0

In the meantime the section further east (Fischamend - Bruck an der Leitha) gets a new surface and some "green bridges" to enable wild life crossings.

http://burgenland.orf.at/news/stories/2571919/


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## bogdymol

KingNick said:


> In the meantime the section further east (Fischamend - Bruck an der Leitha) gets a new surface and some "green bridges" to enable wild life crossings.
> 
> http://burgenland.orf.at/news/stories/2571919/


There are already constructed some "green bridges" on that stretch of motorway (although they look quite old), but a new surface is welcome. The existing one starts to show it's age.


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## KingNick

Jep, especially after Vienna it gets really bad, if I remember correct.


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## mcarling

A third lane on the A4 is much needed. There is often a line of lorries stretching for more than a kilometer, with a lorry in the fast lane blocking all the traffic. Eventually, a third lane will be needed at least to the A6 and probably all the way to HU border.


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## Verso

You don't need 6 lanes for 20,000 AADT.


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## mcarling

Verso said:


> You don't need 6 lanes for 20,000 AADT.


According to Asfinag (see the link above), the current AADT is over 64,000 and is projected to exceed 93,000 by 2025.


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## Verso

^^ Between the airport and Fischamend yes, but it's just about 20k at the Hungarian border.


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## bogdymol

^^ I think that the vignette is mandatory just on the motorways and S-roads. On this Autostrasse I saw just signs with that Go-box for trucks (electronic payment).

One more question: in Linz and Salzburg I saw painted on the pavement a blue line inside the city. What does that represent?


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## x-type

bogdymol said:


> One more question: in Linz and Salzburg I saw painted on the pavement a blue line inside the city. What does that represent?


they usually sign with blue line some street race or marathon routes, so maybe it remained


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## bogdymol

^^ Nope.

I saw it in both Linz and Salzburg, and it was a wider blue lane but perpendicular to the road (not along the road).


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## x-type

so you're probably thinking of some umweltzone or something? that was my first tought too, but couldn't find anything about it on the web. can you find some photo?

edit: i have found them on Google Earth.


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## KingNick

There's no such thing as Umweltzone in Austria. The blue line most likely signales the beginning of a short-term parking zone.


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## cinxxx

pumpikatze said:


> So...what happened with your parking fee?


Sehr geehrter Herr xxx,

die Zahlung konnte nun von der Buchhaltung gefunden und zugeordnet werden, es ist daher nichts mehr zu bezahlen. Bitte geben Sie in Hinkunft bei jeder Zahlung einer Organstrafverfügung die Nummer der Strafe bei Verwendungszweck, Zahlungsreferenz und Kundendaten an damit die Zahlung problemlos zugeordnet werden kann.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

xxx

Magistratsabteilung 67
1200 Wien, Dresdnerstrasse 81-85


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## KingNick

Beamtendeutsch hno:


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## Nordic20T

cinxxx said:


> Bitte geben Sie *in Hinkunft* bei jeder Zahlung einer Organstrafverfügung ...


They expect to receive more money from you in the future? :2cents:

Btw is "Hinkunft" an austrian expression for "Zukunft" or is it "Beamtendeutsch"? Never heard this in Switzerland.


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## cinxxx

Nordic20T said:


> They expect to receive more money from you in the future? :2cents:


Yeah, I noticed that too, but don't plan to give them reason in the future.



Nordic20T said:


> Btw is "Hinkunft" an austrian expression for "Zukunft" or is it "Beamtendeutsch"? Never heard this in Switzerland.


http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Hinkunft
"in Hinkunft (österreichisch; in Zukunft: in Hinkunft werden wir auch darüber sprechen müssen)"
"Herkunft: zum 2. Bestandteil vgl. Abkunft"


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## MichiH

cinxxx said:


> Kundendaten


Customer data?


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## rower2000

MichiH said:


> Customer data?


It's the original Austrian banking term for the reference number written on the payment slips for wire transfer.









Quelle: Schule für Wirtschaft und Technik Mödling

It's the machine-readable number at the bottom left of the red part of the payment slip.


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## KingNick

Nordic20T said:


> They expect to receive more money from you in the future? :2cents:
> 
> Btw is "Hinkunft" an austrian expression for "Zukunft" or is it "Beamtendeutsch"? Never heard this in Switzerland.


Apart from jurists and civil servants, nobody is using that phrase.

cinxxx most likely didn't fill out the "Identifikationsnummer" field, thus they couldn't allocate his payment.


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## cinxxx

^^I only have Verwendungszweck in my Online Banking, and I filled that. Next time I have to pay something like this I will go to a local bank with the original payment slip...


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## darko06

cinxxx, my wife, who is a translator from/to German suggests you to use "Oesterreichisches Woerterbuch, 41. aktualisierte Auflage" oebv, Wien 2006, 2009.
Hinkunft, die: in Zukunft


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## mcarling

darko06 said:


> my wife, who is a translator from/to German ....


Your wife is able to make a living translating between German and Austrian? Interesting. Does she work for the EU? I would have guessed that only the EU would employ translators between German and Austrian. Of course, the EU probably need several hundred German->Austrian translators plus a few hundred Austrian->German translators.


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## cinxxx

I'm understanding that his wife translates to/from German, that can either Hochdeutsch or Austrian.


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## KingNick

mcarling said:


> Your wife is able to make a living translating between German and Austrian? Interesting. Does she work for the EU? I would have guessed that only the EU would employ translators between German and Austrian. Of course, the EU probably need several hundred German->Austrian translators plus a few hundred Austrian->German translators.


We're actually capable to understand Hochdeutsch as well, so no need for extra translators into Austrian German.


----------



## bogdymol

I'm a translator between Romanian and Moldavian.

I also speak American, British, Australian, New-Zeelandean and Canadian :yes:


----------



## italystf

bogdymol said:


> I'm a translator between Romanian and Moldavian.


Are Romanian and Moldavian the same language, like German spoken in D, A and CH?


----------



## TommyLopez

Yes, It's just politicaly separated... :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A2 Graz - Klagenfurt:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/sets/72157622035535811/

A11 Karawanken - Villach:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/sets/72157622341758687/

A10 Villach - Salzburg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/sets/72157622466338526/

Photos were taken in 2009 on my trip to Verslovenia.


----------



## Road_UK

Most signs are probably replaced since then.


----------



## cinxxx

A2: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157632012740886/
A10: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157632012740874/
A11: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157632012740892/

Taken between 1st and 4th November 2012


----------



## bogdymol

A11 LJUBLJANA said:


> who has photos of: A11, A2 E55/66 (Kärnten), A10 E66/55 (around Knoten Villach)?


I also have, but they are mixed a little bit.

https://plus.google.com/photos/103647389234065381997/albums/5627243647154234945?banner=pwa


----------



## A11 LJUBLJANA

ChrisZwolle said:


> A2 Graz - Klagenfurt:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/sets/72157622035535811/
> 
> A11 Karawanken - Villach:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/sets/72157622341758687/
> 
> A10 Villach - Salzburg
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/sets/72157622466338526/
> 
> Photos were taken in 2009 on my trip to Verslovenia.


I want A2 Klagenfurt-Italy.
P. S. I specially Made such nickname, because I love A11! I rest on Wörthersee Every summer, but I'm russian.


----------



## Verso

A11 = Austrian Struma?


----------



## A11 LJUBLJANA

Verso said:


> A11 = Austrian Struma?


But direction is Ljubljana


----------



## bogdymol

A11 LJUBLJANA said:


> *I want A2 Klagenfurt-Italy.*


*Austria - A2 autobahn: Klagenfurt-Graz *(map)






*Austria - A2 Süd Autobahn: Villach - Klagenfurt* (map)






And the Italian section near the border with Austria (maybe the most scenic motorway I've ever driven on):

*Italy A23 - Autostrada Alpe-Adria* (map)


----------



## mpeculea

Nice videos.
Is it just my impression, or is A2 a bit bumpy at times near Klagenfurt?


----------



## Luki_SL

^^Yes, it`s true. The A2 near Klagenfurt is bumpy.


----------



## hofburg

I never really took photos of A2 Italy - Villach section, maybe only a few.


Salzburg - Berlin 024 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC09945 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC09944 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


DSC09947 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

others from A23, A2, A10 are in these sets

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157627083178262/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157627083176750/


----------



## hofburg

some more photos of A2


2013-03-20-850.jpg by hofburgh4, on Flickr


2013-03-20-851.jpg by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

2013-03-20-852.jpg by hofburgh4, on Flickr


2013-03-20-853.jpg by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

2013-03-20-854.jpg by hofburgh4, on Flickr

2013-03-20-855.jpg by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

2013-03-20-856.jpg by hofburgh4, on Flickr


2013-03-20-857.jpg by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## hofburg

2013-03-20-859.jpg by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## threo2k

So amazing!! i hope i one day get the opportunity to drive throught austrina during winter time


----------



## Energy2003

^^ you may not be the only one


----------



## cinxxx

Happy Easter everybody! :cheers2:

One question: until where can you drive with the car towards the tripoint with Germany and Czech Republic?


----------



## hofburg

Happy Easter :cheers:
no idea  planning new trip already?


----------



## cinxxx

I was on Friday for a day trip in Passau, tomorrow if weather will be ok, maybe somewhere else.
The idea with the Dreiländereck I have for longer time 

Bonus: L515 road near the border 


Border D/AUT - Passau/Haibach by cinxxx, on Flickr


Border D/AUT - Passau/Haibach by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## A11 LJUBLJANA

cinxxx said:


> Happy Easter everybody! :cheers2:
> 
> One question: until where can you drive with the car towards the tripoint with Germany and Czech Republic?


We, Russians, have Easter only on 5th May


----------



## cinxxx

^^Well, Austria has official Easter like the Catholic one, also official free day.
I know very well when Orthodox Easter is, since I come from such a country


----------



## hofburg

^but Christmas in Romania is together with catholic one, and Easter not?


----------



## cinxxx

Yes! Romanian Orthodox is not like the other ones 

But I'm Catholic


----------



## Energy2003

A11 LJUBLJANA said:


> We, Russians, have Easter only on 5th May


that would be great here too because the ski areas close mainly after easter :lol: one month more of skiing :banana:


----------



## italystf

hofburg said:


> some more photos of A2
> 
> 
> 2013-03-20-850.jpg by hofburgh4, on Flickr


This is some 100 meters after the Italian border.


----------



## AlexisMD

A11 LJUBLJANA said:


> We, Russians, have Easter only on 5th May


almost all CIS countries (ortodox)


----------



## hofburg

italystf said:


> This is some 100 meters after the Italian border.


thanks, captain 

but actually, it' 50m before physical border.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'm not a big fan of the new Asfinag site layout. Like Norways Statens Vegvesen, they have a huge banner on top of the main page that pretty much takes up the entire screen. All relevant information is only visible when you scroll down. Additionally, the main page loads rather slow.


----------



## KingNick

I was thinking just the same the other day, when I was looking for some information regarding the new Anschlussstelle Landstraßer Gürtel in Vienna. Had to use the search function...


----------



## rower2000

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'm not a big fan of the new Asfinag site layout. Like Norways Statens Vegvesen, they have a huge banner on top of the main page that pretty much takes up the entire screen. All relevant information is only visible when you scroll down. Additionally, the main page loads rather slow.


Count me in with that sentiment. The old style was MUCH better... But they seem to change their webpage once a year, so soon the layout will be gone again anyway.


----------



## Eulanthe

Quick question 

Coming from Vienna to Graz, is there any significant difference in time (assuming driving at around 110km/h) if you take the S6/S39/A9 route as opposed to the A2 route?

I drove the A2 route two years ago, so I'd like to try the alternative route (and also drive that tunnel under Graz!) if there isn't a significant time penalty...


----------



## cinxxx

^^I drove both in December. The alternative you suggested is more curvy and has many tunnels, but it's really nice. I don't think there is much time difference.


----------



## Moravian

cinxxx said:


> ^^I drove both in December. The alternative you suggested is more curvy and has many tunnels, but it's really nice. I don't think there is much time difference.


Yes, this alternative route (S6-S35-A9) has many tunnels and it is more curvy however the landscape (Alps) is more attractive comparing with A2. Definitely not boring. It is only slightly longer. In the direction from Vienna the first section passes Semmering (very nice), the second section (S6) it is the (wide) valley of the river Muerz and the third section from Bruck an der Mur (S35) is really nice again (quite deep valley of the river Mur).... 

I would suggest that if you do not seek for the fastest way Wien-Graz....

Partially it is also the alternative route Wien-Klagenfurt (S6-S36-B317-S37)....


----------



## Verso

Today I noticed that even narrow dirt/grassy roads through fields are equipped with side delineators in Austria. :nuts:


----------



## A11 LJUBLJANA

Moravian said:


> Yes, this alternative route (S6-S35-A9) has many tunnels and it is more curvy however the landscape (Alps) is more attractive comparing with A2. Definitely not boring. It is only slightly longer. In the direction from Vienna the first section passes Semmering (very nice), the second section (S6) it is the (wide) valley of the river Muerz and the third section from Bruck an der Mur (S35) is really nice again (quite deep valley of the river Mur)....
> 
> I would suggest that if you do not seek for the fastest way Wien-Graz....
> 
> Partially it is also the alternative route Wien-Klagenfurt (S6-S36-B317-S37)....


I tried once go so from Velden am Wörthersee to Vienna


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*2012 toll revenue*

The toll revenue of Asfinag in 2012:

* Sondermaut (toll road): € 136 million (8.4%)
* Vignette: € 383 million (23.6%)
* LKW-maut (truck toll): € 1103 million (68%)

All figures are up by a few percent compared to 2011.


----------



## rower2000

ChrisZwolle said:


> The toll revenue of Asfinag in 2012:
> 
> * Sondermaut (toll road): € 136 million (8.4%)
> * Vignette: € 383 million (23.6%)
> * LKW-maut (truck toll): € 1103 million (68%)
> 
> All figures are up by a few percent compared to 2011.


In addition:
EBIT € 1.031 billion
period result € 471 million

net cash flow € 167 million
of which:
dividends: € 100 million
used for debt repayments: € 67 million


----------



## KingNick

italystf said:


> Then you can also ban filming at concerts, football matches, discos, restaurants, parties, monuments, squares, and everywhere outside private homes. Nonsense. When you're outside your home you accept that other people can see you and maybe photograph or film you. According to Italian law it's not even illegal to publish on the press\web\TV a pic or footage containing recognizable people recorded randomly in a public place. Let alone in amatorial vids not subjected to be broadcasted. Currently the only country where you cannot take pics\vids in public without authorization is North Korea.


You're talking about two different things here.

The one would be called freedom of panorama. Something that is outlawed in Italy (http://punto-informatico.it/2030219/PI/News/wikipedia-cede-al-diritto-autore-italiota.aspx) and there's most likely no other country out there with such a liberal ruling to it than Austria.

Another completely different thing is surveillance cameras. Those have to be permitted for the simple reason that a constant filming of public spaces violates the right of every person not to have pictures taken of him. Such cams do not take panorama pictures, but focus on a certain spot. You must have legit reasons for installing such a thing on public spaces. Someone might scratch my car is not among those reasons, therefore the Commission rightfully dismissed the appeal.

Webcams take panorama shots are therefore within the scope of the freedom of panorama.


----------



## bogdymol

^^ My car dash-cam records the panorama along the road (it doesn't focus on a certain spot on the road).


----------



## KingNick

But it's definitely no panorama anymore if you got it running inside a city, while the car is parked. As the commission stated, having the camera run all the time you're driving, it is no longer a panorama shot, but classic surveillance. Anyhow, this is a purely theoretical discussion, since you won't get fined. No cop will ever pull you over for having a camera installed.


----------



## Moravian

Krems an der Donau/Stein - Danube port - the national roads B3 and B35:

pictures/2006:


----------



## Moravian

Melk (2006):


----------



## Moravian

Duernstein/Wachau: the national road B3:


----------



## hofburg

Moravian said:


> Krems an der Donau/Stein - Danube port - the national roads B3 and B35:
> 
> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-SXeol-dW4ms/UYKTYHszP5I/AAAAAAAAAgA/jxrqki92zj4/s800/IMG_3959.JPG


I was at this spot already


----------



## italystf

KingNick said:


> But it's definitely no panorama anymore if you got it running inside a city, while the car is parked. As the commission stated, having the camera run all the time you're driving, it is no longer a panorama shot, but classic surveillance. Anyhow, this is a purely theoretical discussion, since you won't get fined. No cop will ever pull you over for having a camera installed.


Video-surveillance means having a fixed cam that films continuously a spot. This is not the case of a cam fixed in a moving car.
BTW, in Italy and probably in most of countries it's perfectly legal to put a video-surveillance cam in your own property, even if it's used by other people (like shops, bars, offices, private gardens and condominial parking lots). And it's right, with all those thefts and vandalism that happen, everybody has the right to defend his property. If we shot or even detain a thieve caught in our property we go to jail, at least allow us to film and report to the police (that most of the times does nothing).


----------



## italystf

KingNick said:


> Something that is outlawed in Italy (http://punto-informatico.it/2030219/PI/News/wikipedia-cede-al-diritto-autore-italiota.aspx) and there's most likely no other country out there with such a liberal ruling to it than Austria.


This is extremely BS. But after an our former PM (do I really need to say his name?) proposed to shut down the Italian-language wikipedia and delete all articles because "websites that allow instant editing should be forbidden" and after our government banned public unprotected wi-fi after 2005 London bombing because "it may be useful for criminals and terrorists", this appears quite mildy.
I agree that intellectual propertry should be protected when there is an economical interest, otherwise nobody would be interested in inventing something new or in publishing a new book or CD. But forbidding to publish on the net a photo of a monument or building b\c its architect is still alive or died less than 70 years ago is very stupid. It's not that you damage the author like selling illegally-copied books or CDs. But people are paranoid... even in the most stupid amatorial website they say that texts and pics are protected by copyright. Do you make a living with this amatorial website? No, but this stupid pic with absolutely no artistic value was taken by ME and AS A MERE PRINCIPE, I don't let anybody using it. If I publish a pic for example in this forum, what does I lost if someone copy-pastes it? Nothing, but not anybody thinks in that way...

It seems that many closed-minded politicians are scaried by all this freedom of information that the net allow.


----------



## Moravian

Vienna - quite busy junction between the national road No.1 (B1) and Wiener Gürtel (B221). Originally there should have been the beginning of the A1 Motorway (Westautobahn)


----------



## KingNick

@ italystf: The difference between you and me is, that I have a legal approach to the issue. I am telling you what the legal situation is like in Austria since this is what I studied for many years.

Mind the verdict by the Commission is not yet Supreme Court approved and could easily be quashed, but as I see it they had some very solid arguments and I'd be surprised if the SC would come to a different understanding of the relevant sections of the data protection act.


----------



## keber

Moravian said:


>


So to understand that sign you need to step out of the bus, take your looking glass and read very carefully?


----------



## KingNick

keber said:


> So to understand that sign you need to step out of the bus, take your looking glass and read very carefully?


As a bus travel operator you should make yourself familiar with the local legislation, shouldn't you? At least imo you can't expect to drive anywhere you wish in such a big city with a big ass bus.


----------



## keber

I hardly believe that all bus drivers from half of Europe in such touristic city know meaning of this sign. 
What does it mean?


----------



## mcarling

Not only the bus drivers need to know. Any driver who sees the sign will be trying figure out whether or not it prohibits all vehicles except buses -- and, if so, prohibits them from doing what and where exactly the prohibition applies.


----------



## KingNick

keber said:


> I hardly believe that all bus drivers from half of Europe in such touristic city know meaning of this sign.
> What does it mean?


It means you're supposed to take the right lane if you don't have a permit to enter the city. Anyone can apply for such a permit.

IIRC such signs are all along the road up to this intersection.

Edit: Those signs are here only on the 4 advent saturdays:



> "*Bus zone special regulations*
> Access restriction for buses – unless holding a valid bus
> access permit – on the 4 Saturdays during Advent: November
> 30, December 7, 14, and 21, 2013. On special occasions (see
> www.bus.vienna.info) restrictions apply to the 1st, 6th, 7th, 8th and
> 9th districts. TIP: order bus access permits online at www.wien.at"


----------



## Moravian

keber said:


> So to understand that sign you need to step out of the bus, take your looking glass and read very carefully?


It is the special regulation for coaches in central Vienna valid during Adventsaturdays (for example on Sundays - in December - this restriction is not enforced). Without special passport or permitting the coaches cannot enter Ringstrasse and whole downtown. And the number of those passport is strickly limited (300 sets). During these peak time there might be up to 1.000 coaches coming to Vienna mostly for one-day-trip. The sales runs only via internet.
What to do without the entrance permit? It is recommended to use underground and its wide network, on Saturdays there is big free coach parking place available in Prater.

There are several dropp-off/on point at the border of the for coaches restricted area for groups (without that permit). The most popular place was Schwedenplatz. However the coaches "avalanche" coming there on Saturdays round 5 pm caused really huge traffic jams. So the this bus-stop-possibility was definitely cancelled (in 2011). So far as I know there are following bus-stops: Am Praterstern, Am Heumarkt/Stadtpark, Secession/Naschmarkt, and two stop at Westbahnhof (at Mariahilfer Gürtel...).

The info signs are really small..It is always better to check the up-dates on internet or pick-up special coach drivers guide issued yearly by local authorities.....


----------



## Moravian

Vienna - Floridsdorf, Northern bridge, Floridsdorfer bridge - focused on infrastructure (2006)


----------



## Moravian

Vienna - Prater bridge (A23) - focused on infrastructure (2006)


----------



## Moravian

Vienna - beginning of the A22 motorway (Donauferautobahn) - focused on infrastructure (2006)


----------



## Moravian

A13 Brennermotorway in Tirol - Europa bridge


----------



## hofburg

how do you get to all this points of view


----------



## ChrisZwolle

By getting off the Autobahn and find good vantage points. I do it a lot in the Netherlands, but not on international trips because it takes too much time. 

If I do a road trip I don't stop much. Last Tuesday I did a 10.5 hour road trip and I stopped only briefly three times, one time to gas up at an Autohof, one time to take a leak and the final time to visit McDonald's.


----------



## bogdymol

ChrisZwolle said:


> and the final time to visit McDonald's.


I bet you didn't find at the McDonald's you stopped the Romanian-style McMici.










http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mititei


----------



## Moravian

hofburg said:


> how do you get to all this points of view












Hi, as for A13 I was just walking round the reststation behind the bridge, the hill with the memorial chapel included. As for previous pictures from Vienna, the best way is to ride a bicycle.....The remunaration is the different point of view of Austrian capital.....


----------



## mcarling

Has construction begun on the A5 extension?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Not yet, but it will begin this year.

Here's some more info:
http://www.asfinag.at/unterwegs/bau...p_mode=view&p_o_p_id=56_INSTANCE_RHZ7Okynsmjy

(Asfinag has very "professional" URLs on their website, this URL has 396 characters...)


----------



## Road_UK

As clear as their older roadsigns.


----------



## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> Not yet, but it will begin this year.
> 
> Here's some more info:
> http://www.asfinag.at/unterwegs/bau...p_mode=view&p_o_p_id=56_INSTANCE_RHZ7Okynsmjy
> 
> (Asfinag has very "professional" URLs on their website, this URL has 396 characters...)


Only the first 1/3 or so of the url is needed (up to but not including the question mark). The rest just passes information (for example, about you, your computer, your session, etc.) to their server.


----------



## keber

Road_UK said:


> As clear as their older roadsigns.


I don't think that newer signs are much better ...


----------



## Road_UK

I do. A lot better.


----------



## keber

Sure?


----------



## Road_UK

That's a very old sign. They are gradually being replaced in Austria as we speak. Even the fonts are changing. A great deal has been replaced in Tirol in the last few months.


----------



## keber

That sign is about 7 years old and I'm sure it won't be changed very soon.

And don't forget about this:


Tauernautobahn said:


>


----------



## OulaL

keber said:


> Sure?


What's the point with that CZ oval?

Am I supposed to drive to CZ via Bratislava? Sure, it would be all motorway, but still 70 km longer and requiring an another vignette?


----------



## Verso

No, they just don't want you to cause congestion on A23.


----------



## OulaL

I thought the bottleneck here was crossing the Danube, and one still needs A23 to do so - unless one goes to Bratislava.


----------



## Verso

^ I meant the southern/western part of A23 - between A2 and A4.


----------



## OulaL

Apparently the congestion problem isn't that bad at A4, then.


----------



## mcarling

Both the A4 and A23 can be relieved of a lot of traffic, especially truck traffic, by extending the S31 to the A4, parallel to the B50.


----------



## Eulanthe

Don't mention that stupid CZ oval. I took that route last week, and it's completely pointless. And then I discovered that they sign the route to Prague via the S3 rather than via Brno, further adding to my misery. The state of the signage in Vienna (after coming off the A22 following Brno signs) is also absolutely disgraceful.

The S6 route to Graz is absolutely enjoyable, on the other hand


----------



## Road_UK

They sign Vienna from Prague via the same route, don't be they?


----------



## mapman:cz

Wien appears on the begining of D1 in Prague, then disappears for more than 100 kms, on junction near Jihlava (I/38, E58) Wien appears again at once, but the best route is really via Brno and R52, E461.


----------



## ChasingCars

*Landslide hits Felbertauernstrasse*

Today, a large landslide has hit the Felbertauernstrasse, near the village of Matrei im Osttirol. Technically not a highway, this road is a major transport route in Austria and therefore worth mentioning, i think.

Rescue workers say it is believed a car was hit by the slide and is stuck under tons of mud and rock. The road is closed as workers are trying to start a rescue operation.

Eye wittnesses stated that they heard a loud 'boom' right before the slide occurred.

More info here (only in Dutch, sorry): http://www.nu.nl/buitenland/3421981/snelweg-oostenrijk-dicht-aardverschuiving.html

No info on Austrian news sites yet, though.


----------



## keber

Gallery ceiling seems collapsed:








Probably it was designed only for snow avalanches and not for much heavier landslides. Here it looks that part of the mountain came down, that would destroy almost any type of road protection.

EDIT:
very short video and news from ORF:
http://tirol.orf.at/news/stories/2584164/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

According to the road owner, it is a complete structural collapse. 

http://www.felbertauernstrasse.at/de/aktuelles/167-felssturz-auf-der-felbertauernstrasse.html


----------



## KingNick

This is some serious landslide. Looks like the gallery just after the Felbertauerntunnel.


----------



## hofburg

End of A2 with Jof di Montasio in the back


2013-05-15-1006.jpg by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## JackFrost

does somebody know what an (old) E7 sign is doing on the interchange of A22 in floridsdorf/prager strasse? E7 runs normally somewhere is france and spain...


----------



## Road_UK

I think it's just sitting there.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

E7 used to run from Roma to Warszawa between 1950 and 1983. Which means the sign is at least 30 years old.


----------



## Singidunum

Are there any plans for a Vienna bypass ringroad?


----------



## mcarling

Singidunum said:


> Are there any plans for a Vienna bypass ringroad?


A significant extension of the S1 is (soon to be) under construction on the east side of Vienna.


----------



## rower2000

mcarling said:


> A significant extension of the S1 is under construction on the east side of Vienna.


Don't make us Austrians faster than we are . Planned start of works is next year for the section Grossenzersdorf - Süssenbrunn and 2018 for Grossenzersdorf - Schwechat (Danube tunnel). Completion is planned 2016 and 2024, respectively.


----------



## Energy2003

ChrisZwolle said:


> According to the road owner, it is a complete structural collapse.
> 
> http://www.felbertauernstrasse.at/de/aktuelles/167-felssturz-auf-der-felbertauernstrasse.html


changed

the actual link for informations is this one

http://www.felbertauernstrasse.at/de/aktuelles/169-faq.html


----------



## hofburg

Lungau


2013-05-29-1061 by hofburgh4, on Flickr


----------



## rarse

Hello dear Austrian friends. A friend of mine is travelling from Graz to Linz on wednesday. He is wondering if road is OK especially regarding the floods (Linz city)?

Thank you!


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> E7 used to run from Roma to Warszawa between 1950 and 1983. Which means the sign is at least 30 years old.


E7 still signposted in Italy:
http://maps.google.it/maps?q=Latisa...=LMZSw4QHgyvDwdC55JKXDA&cbp=12,199.7,,1,11.47


----------



## KingNick

rarse said:


> Hello dear Austrian friends. A friend of mine is travelling from Graz to Linz on wednesday. He is wondering if road is OK especially regarding the floods (Linz city)?
> 
> Thank you!


Styria wasn't affected and everything should be fine in Linz by tomorrow. So no problem ahead flood related.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An article about the development of the Austrian motorway network;

http://www.kleinezeitung.at/allgemein/automotor/3330522/grosse-autobahnbau-geht-zu-ende.story

Quotes;

_Wenn Sie heute Spurrillen auf der Autobahn sehen, sind sie von Lkw und nicht von holländischen Wohnwagen._

A very large proportion of the Asfinag revenues come from trucks - and for a good reason, the bulk of motorway maintenance is due to wear and tear from trucks. 

_ Große Projekte wird es in zehn Jahren nur noch ganz wenige geben._

I think he's right here as well. Austria has a very well-developed motorway network, with little need for massive expansion after the last missing links to neighboring countries are completed (especially towards CZ/SK/H). Additionally, congestion is not a major issue outside the Wien metropolitan area. The A1 widening is almost completed, and maybe the A4 needs to be widened to 2x3 lanes near Wien, but that's about it. Additionally, most tunnels are now equipped with two tubes. 

The only thing that bothers me was the short-sighted planning of the S1 south of Wien (Vösendorf - Schwechat). It was already loaded to capacity within a few years of opening. It should've been built with 2x3 lanes or at least with a spatial reservation for a third lane.


----------



## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> Austria has a very well-developed motorway network, with little need for massive expansion after the last missing links to neighboring countries are completed (especially towards CZ/SK/H). Additionally, congestion is not a major issue outside the Wien metropolitan area. The A1 widening is almost completed, and maybe the A4 needs to be widened to 2x3 lanes near Wien, but that's about it.


In my opinion, the best way to reduce motorway congestion in the Vienna area is to extend the S31 to the A4. Currently, huge numbers of trucks are forced to make a significantly longer detour _through_ Vienna on the A2, S1, and A4 when they should have the possibility to take a straighter route _away from_ Vienna.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Are there plans to link the Kleinwalsertal with the rest of Austria without having to go through Germany?


----------



## g.spinoza

Coccodrillo said:


> Are there plans to link the Kleinwalsertal with the rest of Austria without having to go through Germany?


To what purpose? I guess it really doesn't matter now, in EU-era.


----------



## KingNick

It didn't even matter in pre EU times.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's quite a detour if you want to visit other nearby Austrian areas. A tunnel would be quite long, and I don't see them building a new mountain pass in this day and age.

I actually wonder what the last new mountain pass in the Alps is. Most follow routes that are over 60 years old, usually paved in the 1950s - 1960s.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's quite a detour if you want to visit other nearby Austrian areas. A tunnel would be quite long, and I don't see them building a new mountain pass in this day and age.
> 
> I actually wonder what the last new mountain pass in the Alps is. Most follow routes that are over 60 years old, usually paved in the 1950s - 1960s.


Passo del Mortirolo was paved in 1990.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Korridorvignette will cease to exist at 3 July. Then the second tube of the Pfänder Tunnel at Bregenz will open to traffic. You will need a regular vignette to drive from Switzerland to Germany. 

I wonder if this will increase traffic in Bregenz. A few years ago I drove through Bregenz and it was quite time-consuming, but I doubt if it was worth € 8.30 though.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> I actually wonder what the last new mountain pass in the Alps is. Most follow routes that are over 60 years old, usually paved in the 1950s - 1960s.


Maybe Paulitschsattel/Pavličevo sedlo between Austria and Slovenia, built around 2000, although most of the road existed already before, but it was gravel, with no through traffic and closed for cars.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The Novena-Nufenen road (TI-VS, Switzerland) opened around 1969 from scratch.


----------



## thun

No need to connect Kleinwalsertal and the rest of Austria. They are a very happily Germanized bunch up there. :yes:



ChrisZwolle said:


> I wonder if this will increase traffic in Bregenz. A few years ago I drove through Bregenz and it was quite time-consuming, but I doubt if it was worth € 8.30 though.


Of course it will. The Pfänder tunnel saves you maybe 10-15minutes in most cases if you go to Zurich via St. Margareten.


----------



## cinxxx

So the Bregenzers can only thank the authorities for more traffic they get


----------



## verreme

It's a pain to drive through Bregenz. Pfänder Tunnel may save much more than 15 minutes. But it's not definitely worth €8,30.


----------



## Suburbanist

A major issue for the Austrian network are the 1+1 sectors of S16. They should widen and rebuild it to be a full highway. Voralberg is plagued with poor road and rail infrastructure, no direct connection to Switzerland, crappy rail link etc.


----------



## Nordic20T

verreme said:


> It's a pain to drive through Bregenz. Pfänder Tunnel may save much more than 15 minutes. But it's not definitely worth €8,30.


You can also buy a Korridor-Vignette instead of the normal one, costs you around 2€.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The corridor vignette will cease to exist in a few weeks (July 3).


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Passo del Mortirolo was paved in 1990.


Also Passo Gavia wasn't paved until relatively recently (80s-90s ?)



Suburbanist said:


> A major issue for the Austrian network are the 1+1 sectors of S16. They should widen and rebuild it to be a full highway. Voralberg is plagued with poor road and rail infrastructure, no direct connection to Switzerland, crappy rail link etc.


They should also link the Austrian A12 with the German A95, the Austrian A14 with the Swiss A13, connect Linz to Prague, Vienna with Brno and Graz with the Balaton lake.


----------



## Verso

^^ Don't forget this!  But I don't see a need for a motorway between A12 and the German A95. Innsbruck and München are already connected over Rosenheim.


----------



## hofburg

connecting german A7 with Insbruck via Reutte would be more appropriate.


----------



## cinxxx

Are there still big problems on motorways in Austria? It seems I will have to make an urgent drive home to Timisoara. Planning to leave tomorrow after work, stay somewhere in the middle over night and resume on Friday morning.


----------



## Road_UK

cinxxx said:


> Are there still big problems on motorways in Austria? It seems I will have to make an urgent drive home to Timisoara. Planning to leave tomorrow after work, stay somewhere in the middle over night and resume on Friday morning.


If it's that urgent, then why bother stopping? Carry on through the night and you will have no problems. Have your rest when you get there. That is how I work anyway.


----------



## Suburbanist

This just furthers the case for an European-wide toll/road fee/vignette electronic collection system that is fully interoperable and allows you to pay whatever you have to pay without having to stop at physical toll plazas (which are very expensive to deploy, just look at Italy) or stick things in your windshield.


----------



## KingNick

rower2000 said:


> The problem is that the federal government in Vienna most often couldn't care less about a traffic problem on the westernmost tip of Austria... Furthermore, if Asfinag has enough income to pay a 100,000,000 EUR dividend to its only shareholder, the Republic of Austria, a loss of income of 414,000 EUR per year should be manageable (Asfinag calculated that with everything included, i.e., people who paid a 10-day-vignette before and now pay only a Korridorvignette, and additional income by new customers generated by the corridor vignette, the income decrease per Korridorvignette sold is 0.37 EUR. At 5.6 million sales in five years, or 1.12 million sales per year, that amounts to the quoted 414,000 EUR/year).


This is not about a loss of income, but the fact that ASFINAG is not willing to grant special treatment to anybody. You can't say yes to the people of Bregenz, but no the the ones around Graz:

http://steiermark.orf.at/news/stories/2590420/


----------



## cinxxx

^^So ASFINAG refuses to listen to what the people want...


----------



## KingNick

cinxxx said:


> ^^So ASFINAG refuses to listen to what the people want...


We would not be having one single Kilometer of Autobahn if they would do that in any case.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A vignette is by far most advantageous to "the people". If you had regular tolls like France or Italy, you pay the price of an annual vignette by driving from Wien to Salzburg and back two times per year. 

The 10-day vignette is also not outrageously expensive. What's € 8.50? In France you pay that kind of money for driving 80 kilometers on an Autoroute, in Austria you have unlimited mileage. I agree that € 8.50 for driving 2 x 6 kilometers on A12 near Kufstein is not value for money, but if you are too cheap to purchase a vignette of € 8.50 on your annual ski trip to Kitzbühel you maybe shouldn't go at all.


----------



## cinxxx

I didn't say it's expensive, it's ok.

But I remember when I drove from Switzerland I didn't even buy the Korridorvignette, drove through Bregenz. I hate applying stickers for under an hour drive. It would be great to make the sticker digital, and to be able to buy it online. Those stupid stickers are not always easy to get off. And if traveling in Austria, SLO, CZ, SK in one week, you fill your windshield.

In some countries though ring roads of big cities are untolled.


----------



## thun

Technically you're right. However there are plenty of transit routes and access routes to ski resorts where 8,50€ is too expensive so that a lot of people decide to use the federal road instead because you actually don't loose too much time. Especially in the case of the ski resorts it's a lot of Bavarians doing day trips (probably much more than those going to Kitzbühel or so for a whole week), they don't buy a 10-day vignette if they need it only for one day as they think of it as a ripoff.
Lindau-St. Margareten, Fernpass-Reschenpass through Landeck, Fernpass-Paznaun, Fernpass/Zirler Berg-Ötztal just to mention a few.


----------



## Energy2003

KingNick said:


> This is not about a loss of income, but the fact that ASFINAG is not willing to grant special treatment to anybody. You can't say yes to the people of Bregenz, but no the the ones around Graz:


thats also one more reason because the "Korridorivgnette" will not be kept for Bregenz - even when some people think it may be necessary - because the asfinag don´t want to give an example to others
_(so written in the newspaper)_


----------



## rower2000

Energy2003 said:


> thats also one more reason because the "Korridorivgnette" will not be kept for Bregenz - even when some people think it may be necessary - because the asfinag don´t want to give an example to others
> _(so written in the newspaper)_


IMHO there are three stretches in Austria where a similar concept to the Korridorvignette should apply: A14 border Hörbranz -> Hohenems; A12 border Kufstein -> Kufstein-Süd; A12 Oberinntal jct -> Fließ (Tunnel Landeck). These are the three stretches where a short motorway section is on an important long-distance relation (Munich -> Zurich and Ulm -> Milan; Munich -> Kitzbühel, important in winter tourism; and Ulm -> Fernpass -> Reschenpass -> Bozen).

The situation in Graz is completely different: that's commuter traffic rather than one-off holiday drivers.


----------



## Moravian

KingNick said:


> This is not about a loss of income, but the fact that ASFINAG is not willing to grant special treatment to anybody. You can't say yes to the people of Bregenz, but no the the ones around Graz:
> 
> http://steiermark.orf.at/news/stories/2590420/


If there is "vignette" system implemented on the motorway, it is always similar story. In Austria are (almost) all "A" and "S" roads tolled without expection (unfinished S5 near Krems, former S33=nowadays B37 in Krems...). And they try to keep it on. Nevertheless the Korridorvignette in Vorarlberg had been implemented once and it has worked quite succesfully. The argumentation with the completed tunnel..it is weird.

Comparing with the CZ, there were usually all urban motorway sections (in Praha, Brno, Ostrava...) free of charge (for cars). Nowadays those toll exceptions have been significantly reduced.....And sure, there are discussions back again.

A2 and A9 could be toll-free in Graz. After that same exception for A22,A23,S2, A4, A2...in Wien, A10 and A1 in Salzburg, A12 and A13 in Innsbruck, A7 in Linz, A1+S33 in Sankt Pölten.....That is the point.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A14 Pfänder Tunnel, Bregenz*

The second tube of the Pfänder Tunnel at Bregenz (6.7 km) opened to traffic today. Full 2x2 capacity is now available in the busiest road tunnel of the Alps. The traffic volume is 30.000 vehicles per day.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> Full 2x2 capacity is now available in the busiest road tunnel of the Alps.


Maybe of longer tunnels. Trojane (~3 km) is busier (but there're busier tunnels).


----------



## Road_UK

How much does the Gotthard Tunnel carry?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

17.000 on average.


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> The second tube of the Pfänder Tunnel at Bregenz (6.7 km) opened to traffic today. Full 2x2 capacity is now available in the busiest road tunnel of the Alps. The traffic volume is 30.000 vehicles per day.


Dodes that mean that 2 weeks ago I passed through new tube while the old one was under reconstruction?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, that's right.


----------



## Coccodrillo

As far I know the Seelisberg (9 km) reaches 40.000 but I'm not sure. Then there are tunnels around cities located in the Alps with even higher traffic (don't forget that not only the peaks above 3.000 metres are part of the Alps, but also the lower ones around for instance Como and Lucerne).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Coccodrillo said:


> As far I know the Seelisberg (9 km) reaches 40.000 but I'm not sure.


I don't think so. There are no large cities between the Seelisberg Tunnel and Gotthard Tunnel that would genererate/absorb the difference between 17.000 at the Gotthard and 40.000 at the Seelisberg. I think the Seelisberg Tunnel is in the 20.000 - 25.000 range.



> Then there are tunnels around cities located in the Alps with even higher traffic (don't forget that not only the peaks above 3.000 metres are part of the Alps, but also the lower ones around for instance Como and Lucerne).


I mean those that cross one of the main chains of the Alps. Often the Belchen Tunnel (A2, Switzerland) is quoted as the busiest tunnel in the Alps, but it actually runs through the Jura.


----------



## Verso

Coccodrillo said:


> don't forget that not only the peaks above 3.000 metres are part of the Alps


The hill over the Pfänder Tunnel doesn't even reach 800 m though.  (I mean where the tunnel crosses it, otherwise Pfänder reaches 1,064 m)


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> I don't think so. There are no large cities between the Seelisberg Tunnel and Gotthard Tunnel that would genererate/absorb the difference between 17.000 at the Gotthard and 40.000 at the Seelisberg. I think the Seelisberg Tunnel is in the 20.000 - 25.000 range.


Yes, according to that is around 20.000. I got confused because the ~40.000 vehicles a day are at the junction A2-A8, on the southern branch of the A2.

The A3 around the Walensee is at around 33.000, but the 6 km Kerenzertunnel is on one carriageway only.

The short tunnels around Lausanne, Lucerne and Lugano are between 60.000 and 70.000.


----------



## x-type

in the last moment! current tube is so horrible to drive, i think it couldn't handle traffic this summer anymore!


----------



## mcarling

rower2000 said:


> Here's an embedded video of the erection process of the fly over bridge:
> http://www.asfinag.at/newsroom?-696944#ap-inside-view-full


It is awe inspiring to see the erection of something so large and so hard, soon to be throbbing with traffic discharging at one end.

:lol:


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

ChrisZwolle said:


> An opening ceremony of the second tube of the Bosruck Tunnel (5.5 km) will be held on July 19. The second tube will open to traffic shortly thereafter. When the second tube is put into service, the old tube will shut down for 2 years for renovation works. Full 2x2 capacity is expected in 2015. Project cost is € 280 million.


^^
I admire the Austrians for their continuous construction programme of second tubes for old single-tube tunnels. kay: :master:

We all know that the safest tunnels are the ones with two tubes and from what I remember there were many such additional tubes completed in the last years in Austria. :yes:

I will try to make a list. 

*Addition of second tubes and the year of their completition:*

Karawankentunnel (A11): 2019 (planned)
Gleinalmtunnel (A9): 2017 (planned) 
Bosrucktunnel (A9): 2013
Pfändertunnel (A14): 2013
Tauerntunnel (A10): 2010
Lainbergtunnel (A9): 2008
Katschbergtunnel (A10): 2008
Herzogbergtunnel (A2): 2005
Gräberntunnel (A2): 2003
Ambergtunnel (A14): 2003

:applause:


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## Road_UK

You love your smiley's, don't you.


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

:bowtie::yes::bowtie:


----------



## Le Clerk

Hello! Do you guys have any idea what happened with the U/C projects in Austria after Alpine went bankrupt? Alpine had some motorway works in Romania too which have been stopped already for a few months and it's interesting to see what the Austrian Gov did as a solution to continue the works previously under Alpine's task. :cheers:


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> An opening ceremony of the second tube of the Bosruck Tunnel (5.5 km) will be held on July 19. The second tube will open to traffic shortly thereafter. When the second tube is put into service, the old tube will shut down for 2 years for renovation works. Full 2x2 capacity is expected in 2015. Project cost is € 280 million.


What about the Tunnelkette (tunnel chain) just north of the Bosruck tunnel?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

_Tunnelkette Klaus_ is planned for twinning between 2013 and 2019. Construction start is actually planned for next month:

http://www.asfinag.at/unterwegs/bau...9-pyhrn-autobahn-vollausbau-tunnelkette-klaus


----------



## KingNick

Le Clerk said:


> Hello! Do you guys have any idea what happened with the U/C projects in Austria after Alpine went bankrupt? Alpine had some motorway works in Romania too which have been stopped already for a few months and it's interesting to see what the Austrian Gov did as a solution to continue the works previously under Alpine's task. :cheers:


Well those projects, where Alpine is the only contractor have to be tendered again (by law just as in Romania). Bigger projects with Alpine as a working group member are not really affected as the other contractors are held responsible for Alpine.


----------



## Le Clerk

Thanks. I thought so. :cheers:


----------



## cougar1989

I will show you some pictures from my Roadtrip trough the EU+EFTA from 15/07/13 until 19/07/13. A6 - A4 - A22 - S5 - S33 - A1 - A25 - A8


----------



## Verso

cougar1989 said:


>


Continue straight forward for Hungary? icard: How about signing Wien instead?


----------



## Road_UK

Perhaps going straight ahead won't take you to Wien?


----------



## mcarling

Road_UK said:


> Perhaps going straight ahead won't take you to Wien?


Going straight ahead, (oops! I didn't mean to be gay bashing.) Going gayly onward, one comes to the end of the A6 and can either turn left (toward Budapest) or right (toward Vienna) onto the A4.


----------



## Verso

Road_UK said:


> Perhaps going straight ahead won't take you to Wien?


That's quite an embarrassing question for someone living in Austria and driving across Europe on a regular basis.


----------



## Verso

Where did they get A462?


----------



## KingNick

This can't be an Autobahn though.

Edit: It is no Autobahn. All Autobahns in Austria are stated in "Verzeichnis 1" of the Bundesstraßengesetz:

http://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=10011428


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Where did they get A462?


Probably one of the many Google mistakes, check if they'll fix it in the next days.
In this place they made two mistakes: SR56 instead of SS676 and Località Produttiva (bad translation of industrial area) signed like a toponym.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Probably one of the many Google mistakes, check if they'll fix it in the next days.


I doubt.


----------



## italystf

Are they gonna changing the classification of expressways (schnellstrassen)? They usually use the S-prefix.


----------



## thun

Still, there are more than enough lorries/caravans on it to be buggered regularly.  With me worst so far have been some Durch pensioners enjoying the landscape at a whopping 25 kph from Reutte to Lermoos... :gunz:


----------



## Road_UK

In all honesty, it's not only the Dutch. Nobody around here likes to be stuck behind Germans. As fast as they may be on their autobahns, as primitive and sloooow their driving styles are over here. The ones in Mercedes vehicles are the worst I find..


----------



## Stahlsturm

Road_UK said:


> In all honesty, it's not only the Dutch. Nobody around here likes to be stuck behind Germans. As fast as they may be on their autobahns, as primitive and sloooow their driving styles are over here. The ones in Mercedes vehicles are the worst I find..


Sightseeing Germans are exactly like that and a royal pain in the #*?% It's almost like they deliberately block the road and make sure nobody passes. Old Germans in general are like that it seems. The average speed on the German Autobahn dropps by half every Sunday between 11:30 and 16:00.


----------



## cinxxx

So little tolerance here 

I also don't like to slow drivers, but that's life.

But I dislike more aggressive tailgaters. Some idiot gave me flashes, tailgated me and made gestures with his hands yesterday on the B16 near Ingolstadt, where you have 60 limitation because of many intersections, also motorway entry/exit. I was driving 70. Ah, and after not more than 1km I had a truck in front of me...


----------



## Road_UK

The efficiency of the Rettungsgasse as experienced on the A12 near Wattens this morning:

All locals and freight traffic move to the far left and right, leaving a comfortable space in the middle for Italians and Germans to pass through, who obviously have no idea what hit them...
They must think Austrians are the friendliest people on earth!


----------



## KingNick

Especially since Germans have no idea what a Rettungsgasse is from their homeland...


----------



## Road_UK

True.


----------



## Stahlsturm

cinxxx said:


> So little tolerance here


Tolerance is no virtue... 

However, I can't see anything wrong with going 70 in a 60 zone. The guy behind you was just a royal asshole I guess


----------



## thun

You might not have gotten the irony there @Road UK


----------



## Road_UK

thun said:


> You might not have gotten the irony there @Road UK


I admit I'm not quite sure what he meant.


----------



## Verso

Road_UK said:


> The efficiency of the Rettungsgasse as experienced on the A12 near Wattens this morning:
> 
> All locals and freight traffic move to the far left and right, leaving a comfortable space in the middle for Italians and Germans to pass through, who obviously have no idea what hit them...
> They must think Austrians are the friendliest people on earth!


Good idea for next time I'm in Austria. :troll:


----------



## cinxxx

Germany also uses the Rettungsgasse, at least in Bavaria. Every time an accident happens that is announced on radio they also say "Bilden Sie bitte eine Rettungsgasse für Einsatzfahrzeuge"...


----------



## Road_UK

cinxxx said:


> Germany also uses the Rettungsgasse, at least in Bavaria. Every time an accident happens that is announced on radio they also say "Bilden Sie bitte eine Rettungsgasse für Einsatzfahrzeuge"...


Yes but in practice it's not happening until emergency services arrive. Not anywhere in Germany.


----------



## Wilhem275

I knew about this thing, but I believed it only applied on 3-lanes motorways, in order to create two open corridors (between left and center lanes + emergency lane).

On 2-lanes motorways, the emergency lane should be enough.


----------



## MichiH

Wilhem275 said:


> I knew about this thing, but I believed it only applied on 3-lanes motorways, in order to create two open corridors (between left and center lanes + emergency lane).
> On 2-lanes motorways, the emergency lane should be enough.


No. The emergency lane is usually not used as "Rettungsgasse". It is always b/n the left and the 2nd left lane independent if the carriageway has 2, 3 or 4 lanes.


----------



## Wilhem275

Now I know it  In Germany, I've never seen it applied when traffic was stuck, nor in Switerzland... I don't remember being stuck in Austria.


----------



## Verso

We pretty much copied it:


----------



## hofburg

^ yes, but slovenian version is different. while in Austria vehicles on the right lane are requested to move right on the shoulder, in Slovenia they are only requested to move right to the white line separating the driving lane and shoulder, so the shoulder remains free in addition to the emptied space in the middle.

http://www.dars.si/Dokumenti/5_nepravilna vožnja/resi_zivljenje.pdf


----------



## Verso

Yes, I meant just the picture.


----------



## g.spinoza

cinxxx said:


> Germany also uses the Rettungsgasse, at least in Bavaria. Every time an accident happens that is announced on radio they also say "Bilden Sie bitte eine Rettungsgasse für Einsatzfahrzeuge"...


I was stuck once on the A8 near Rosenheim, during a violent snowstorm two trucks collided an long queues formed. People started to form Rettungsgasse, I had no idea what was going on but just copied them...


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Not the Rettungsgassen I have seen


----------



## volodaaaa

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Not the Rettungsgassen I have seen


Like this?


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Basically, yes


----------



## Wiener.Blut

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I certainly hope not. Emergency lane is there for a reason, no need to introduce a complex scheme everyone must follow to the letter, when there is already one when nobody has to do anything.


emergency lane is for stopping in a case of emergency not driving on it.


----------



## g.spinoza

Wiener.Blut said:


> emergency lane is for stopping in a case of emergency not driving on it.


And that is your opinion.
Emergency lane is for emergency vehicles. Easy-peasy.
For stopping in case of emergency in Italy we have emergency bays.


----------



## Wiener.Blut

g.spinoza said:


> And that is your opinion.
> Emergency lane is for emergency vehicles. Easy-peasy.
> For stopping in case of emergency in Italy we have emergency bays.


It is not my opinion it is law.


----------



## g.spinoza

Wiener.Blut said:


> It is not my opinion it is law.


In your country. 
Not in mine.
I just expressed my hope that my country won't follow yours.


----------



## Road_UK

I don't agree with the Rettungsgasse scheme, but the problem in Italy and also in France is that the hard shoulder is so narrow. Too narrow for emergency services, so the stationery traffic has to move one way or another, and how can you move stationary traffic that fast. In the UK, Netherlands, Belgium and loads of other countries the shoulder is wide enough. Even in Austria, so I don't know what they're trying to prove. The Rettungsgasse would have been far more applicable in France and Italy.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Hard shoulder in Italy doesn't seem so narrow to me, but even if it is, a Rettungsgasse can form on the first lane, with all vehicles in that lane going slightly left therefore "widening" the hard shoulder. Sure is less complex moving 1 lane full of cars than two or more.

Every time I have been in a queue for an accident in Italy motorways, emergency vehicles arrived fast and without any problems (except for occasional morons trying to jump the queue in the emergency lane).


----------



## Road_UK

They appear to be wider on 3x3 roads, but on the 2x2 not really that wide, and on a lot of stretches none at all due to tunnels etc. Think about the areas around Aosta, Brenner - Verona and Genua... And even on the A1 between Bologna and Florence the situation can get rather dangerous...


----------



## Wiener.Blut

g.spinoza said:


> Every time I have been in a queue for an accident in Italy motorways, emergency vehicles arrived fast and without any problems (except for occasional morons trying to jump the queue in the emergency lane).


This is your point of view, I am sure that statistic says different, otherwise they would not introduce Rettugsgasse. And as Road_UK already said it is not applicable everywhere .


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ That's true, I don't like the fact that tunnels have no shoulder. I think in this cases a Rettungsgasse can form spontaneously, like in 2- or 3-lane urban roads...


----------



## g.spinoza

Wiener.Blut said:


> This is your point of view, I am sure that statistic says different, otherwise they would not introduce Rettugsgasse.


Maybe you're right, but ust because something is institutionalized, it doesn't mean it is better.


----------



## Wiener.Blut

g.spinoza said:


> Maybe you're right, but ust because something is institutionalized, it doesn't mean it is better.


Off course but I am sure that in this case it is.


----------



## g.spinoza

God save guys with granite-strong convictions!


----------



## Blaskovitz

Verso said:


> I saw it once in Slovenia... going uphill!



On Polish A4 is quite normal, but 99,99% odf drivers are from Ukraine and Lithuania(they are very crazy and dangerous - most of polish truckers hates them:lol


----------



## Wiener.Blut

It is not conviction but empiric. Authorities have researched an issue a lot, before introducing the system. We have already mentioned the fact that there are so many bottleneck on motorways making emergency lane not appropriate for emergency vehicles.


----------



## Road_UK

Blaskovitz said:


> On Polish A4 is quite normal, but 99,99% odf drivers are from Ukraine and Lithuania(they are very crazy and dangerous - most of polish truckers hates them:lol


I'm sure that Polish lorry drivers are perfectly safe drivers :nuts:


----------



## Blaskovitz

Road_UK said:


> I'm sure that Polish lorry drivers are perfectly safe drivers :nuts:



Of course not. We have lots of idiots here, but lithuanians have very bad reputation hno:


Examples: (or just write in YT: litewski tir)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7aInxbFTGk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS9ezGqstFA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewDcNK2cVj0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8-OwJxopnQ

Sorry for OF.


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> In your country.


In Germany too.


----------



## bogdymol

keber said:


> In snowfall you often need snow chains because of steep hills. Truck traffic is forbidden on all passes and must detour over other motorways (Udine or Graz).


That's quite a big detour for trucks...



cinxxx said:


> Also, can you recommend a place where to fuel the car between Wels and Leoben?


If you don't want to refuel from a gas station directly from the motorway (it's usually a little more expensive), you can get off A9 at Liezen. On B320 in Liezen there are plenty of gas stations. I refilled there my LPG car (LPG is hard to find in Austria) 

Check my youtube video of B320 to see how many gas stations are there (from 10:28). If your girlfriend is in a "shopping mood" you see from the video that there are quite some places in that area that you could try.


----------



## Verso

bogdymol said:


> That's quite a big detour for trucks...


Welcome to pre-1991 (although I think trucks were transported by train through the railway tunnel beside). Anyway, the tunnel is open again, but in one direction at a time.


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Welcome to pre-1991 (although I think trucks were transported by train through the railway tunnel beside). Anyway, the tunnel is open again, but in one direction at a time.


I guess traffic was much lower in those old days.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> I guess traffic was much lower in those old days.


Trucks transported through the Karawanken railway tunnel (I don't know about that) or overall truck traffic between Austria/Germany and Yugoslavia? I guess the latter was quite significant, but then again, there aren't so many trucks driving through the Karawanken road tunnel nowadays anyway (much less than on the Slovenian A1 in any case). The Yugoslav Wars and new borders actually reduced traffic a lot.


----------



## keber

italystf said:


> I guess traffic was much lower in those old days.


No, truck traffic was quite intense even then. Most transit traffic including trucks went over Loibl/Ljubelj pass.Through Tarvisio there was not much traffic to Yugoslavia because of very narrow streets of Tarvisio and also there was additional border crossing.

Traffic jams for Yugoslavia over Loiblpass often started already in Unterloibl and sometimes even in Klagenfurt. Few hours of waiting time were normal, sometimes even whole day. Mostly because heavy loaded trucks with weak engines had big difficulties negotiating extremely steep ascents and very tight corners of Loiblstrasse.

About alternative routes: geography of the Alps does not allow easy alternative routes in case of closures. Imagine having closed Brenner motorway because of some serious accident (happened about 17 years ago when a bridge collapsed near Kufstein). Nearby alternatives are not possible.


----------



## A11 LJUBLJANA

keber said:


> No, truck traffic was quite intense even then. Most transit traffic including trucks went over Loibl/Ljubelj pass.Through Tarvisio there was not much traffic to Yugoslavia because of very narrow streets of Tarvisio and also there was additional border crossing.
> 
> Traffic jams for Yugoslavia over Loiblpass often started already in Unterloibl and sometimes even in Klagenfurt. Few hours of waiting time were normal, sometimes even whole day. Mostly because heavy loaded trucks with weak engines had big difficulties negotiating extremely steep ascents and very tight corners of Loiblstrasse.
> 
> About alternative routes: geography of the Alps does not allow easy alternative routes in case of closures. Imagine having closed Brenner motorway because of some serious accident (happened about 17 years ago when a bridge collapsed near Kufstein). Nearby alternatives are not possible.


But now it's EU, so there are 2 alternative routes: about Tarvisio and E652


----------



## keber

Just for smaller vehicles and buses, not for bigger trucks.


----------



## cinxxx

I drove via Wurzenpass in October, the road in Austria had pretty bad pavement, also the descents were pretty steep. Not the most comfortable ride for me...


----------



## rower2000

cinxxx said:


> I'm guessing you don't need chains for the A9 towards Maribor, right? I don't own any...
> Also, can you recommend a place where to fuel the car between Wels and Leoben?
> 
> We plan on driving with the Fiat 500, that only has a 35L tank, so it will require more times fueling :lol:


As long as you have winter tires, you should be fine. I never encountered a snow chain requirement on Austrian motroways for cars. However, if there are "winterly road conditions", i.e., snow or ice on the road, you are required by law to use winter tires. Failure to do so will result in a fine between 35 EUR ("normal" fine) and up to 5.000 EUR if you significantly endanger other traffic.


----------



## hofburg

how are you going to get from Ingolstadt to Wels?


----------



## cinxxx

hofburg said:


> how are you going to get from Ingolstadt to Wels?


I guess it would be:
http://goo.gl/maps/A4gAC or http://goo.gl/maps/C3y22 or http://goo.gl/maps/0BKkf

I also have to see the weather prognosis and traffic situation.

I also went like this:
http://goo.gl/maps/awBK7 and http://goo.gl/maps/tK5Kx and http://goo.gl/maps/0g9ui


----------



## carlsjul

*Toll Station at St Michael im Lungau*

Avoid to paying MAUT at Exit St Michael im Lundau?
Then run back, is it possible?
Openstreetmap shows that it is possible ......
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/226620795#map=16/47.0940/13.6165

Where to pay ?

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/55114197


----------



## bogdymol

^^ That's a good question... but if you look on Google Maps - satellite view, you can see that on the slip road connecting A10 to main road 96 there's a small toll plaza. So I don't think you can avoid paying the toll...


----------



## rower2000

If you exit A10 at St. Michael, you will be charged 5 EUR on the ramp. The same is valid if you enter A10 there (you're only charged for the tunnel you passed/will pass if you use the St. Michael and Zederhaus junctions).


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Can you clarify it a little?
- if you enter/exit A10 at that interchange you have to pay € 5 (5 for entering, 5 for exiting)
- what's the toll on A10 toll gate if you just remain on the motorway?


----------



## rower2000

bogdymol said:


> ^^ Can you clarify it a little?
> - if you enter/exit A10 at that interchange you have to pay € 5 (5 for entering, 5 for exiting)
> - what's the toll on A10 toll gate if you just remain on the motorway?


If you stay on the motorway you have to pay 10 €. So you gain/lose nothing if you stay on the motorway compared to leaving and then entering the motorway again. Anything else wouldn't make too much sense, would it ?


----------



## greyhound72

cinxxx said:


> It's the 1.4L 16v 100PS model. Top speed 186 km/h. No turbo, normal gasoline motor.
> I drove it max little over 170 km/h.
> 
> From what I've seen on a trip from Regensburg to Ingolstadt, driving resonable 110-120 in 6th gear because of rain, average was around 6.8-7.0 L/100km


There are some OMV tankstelle before Graz... I don't remember if any before Leoben. This road is mostly great, but tunnels are 1-lane's ones.


----------



## PhirgataZFs1694

Does Austria have plans to directly connect with a motorway Haag am Hausruck/Ried im Innkreis to german A94 near Braunau am Inn?


----------



## MichiH

^^ No.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The electronic truck toll has been in use for 10 years now. Trucks had to pay the electronic tolls starting 1 January 2004. 

In 10 years, the heavy vehicles drove over 30 billion toll kilometers and paid 6.2 billion toll transactions. The toll revenue was € 9.8 billion. All toll revenue flows to motorway & expressway operator Asfinag, who uses it to service bond debts and help pay for new projects.

75% of all toll revenue in Austria is paid by trucks, 25% by light vehicles. A similar trend can be observed in Slovakia. The truck toll for a modern euro 4/5 truck with 4 axles or more is € 0.39 per kilometer, which is the second-highest in Europe after Switzerland, which charges nearly double that.


----------



## italystf

prasak said:


> Hi, I am coming from Slovenia to Villach through Karawanken tunnel. Is it possible to take the first exit after the tunnel (Sankt jakob in Rosental) and then use local roads to avoid paying Austrian vignette or I must have a vignette even for that small section between the tunnel and the first exit?


No, you don't need the vignette.


----------



## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> No, you don't need the vignette.


According to what they say here, you need the vignette (only the southbound carriageway is vignette-free)

But maybe I understood it wrong


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> According to what they say here, you need the vignette (only the southbound carriageway is vignette-free)
> 
> But maybe I understood it wrong


That must be error since you have to pay for the tunnel in both directions.


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> That must be error since you have to pay for the tunnel in both directions.


I was talking about the vignette. I understood that the ticket for the tunnel is due in both direction, but the vignette is needed only in the northbound carriageway...
I read the same thing in ACI (Italian Automobile Club) website...


----------



## Verso

g.spinoza said:


> I was talking about the vignette.


I know; what I meant was that since you have to pay extra for the tunnel in both directions, it doesn't make sense to need a vignette as well (for either direction).


----------



## bogdymol

Maybe some pictures will help. I shot them myself in 2011, while traveling from Ljubljana (Slovenia) to Villach (Austria).

Just before the Karawanken tunnel toll plaza there's a sign for Austrian vignette purchase from the parking lot:










At the Karawanken tunnel toll plaza, on the Slovenian side, you have this signs:










After the tunnel:










First exit after the tunnel:









^^ If no vignette was needed I believe that together with this sign should have come another sign saying that you need vignette to keep driving on the motorway, but you don't need one if you exit here.


----------



## Verso

Just negligent signage, if you ask me. I wouldn't be surprised, if it were the same on the Slovenian side. And those signs with vignettes just mean you can buy them there, since you can't buy them between the tunnel and the first exit. The two identical signs after the tunnel just tell you general information.


----------



## KingNick

> Die Sondermautstrecke befindet sich zwischen der Anschlussstelle St. Jakob im Rosental und der Staatsgrenze im Karawankentunnel.


http://www.asfinag.at/maut/sonder-und-videomaut

According to ASFINAG Sondermaut (toll) is due on the Border - Exit St. Jabob stretch, meaning no Vignette is required till the first exit.


----------



## KingNick

Well now I am totally confused. According to this map only one lane is considered Sondermaut and it's the south bound one. I sent ASFINAG an E-Mail and will let you guys know what's the deal as soon as I receive an answer.


----------



## Verso

KingNick said:


> Well now I am totally confused. According to this map only one lane is considered Sondermaut and it's the south bound one.


That's because going north you pay in Slovenia, not Austria. That's not a good-enough reason to require a vignette though. You don't need a Slovenian vignette until the first exit in either direction.


----------



## rower2000

You definitely do not need a vignette between the Karawankentunnel border and St. Jakob.

The Asfinag toll regulations say:


> Nachfolgende Autobahn- und Schnellstraßenabschnitte (Strecken) sind gemäß § 10 Abs. 2 BStMG von der Entrichtung einer zeitabhängigen Maut ausgenommen (siehe dazu Mautordnung Teil A II):
> • A 9 Pyhrn Autobahn in den Abschnitten zwischen der Anschlussstelle Spital/Pyhrn und der Anschlussstelle Ardning und zwischen der Anschlussstelle St. Michael und Übelbach
> • A 10 Tauern Autobahn im Abschnitt zwischen der Anschlussstelle Flachau und der Anschlussstelle Rennweg
> • A 11 Karawanken Autobahn im Abschnitt zwischen der Anschlussstelle St. Jakob im Rosental und der Staatsgrenze im Karawankentunnel
> • A 13 Brenner Autobahn
> • S 16 Arlberg Schnellstraße im Abschnitt zwischen der Anschlussstelle St. Anton und der Anschlussstelle Langen


Translated:
The following motorway and expressway sections are exempt from the vignette requirement according to § 10 (2) of the Federal Highway Toll Act (cf toll regulations section A II):
• A 9 Pyhrn motorway between exits Spital/Pyhrn and Ardning as well as between exits St. Michael und Übelbach
• A 10 Tauern motorway between exits Flachau and Rennweg
• A 11 Karawanken Autobahn motorway between exit St. Jakob im Rosental and the border inside Karawankentunnel
• A 13 Brenner motorway
• S 16 Arlberg expressway between exits St. Anton and Langen


----------



## KingNick

> Sehr geehrter Herr xxxx,
> 
> vielen Dank für Ihre Anfrage.
> 
> Auf der A11 Karawanken Autobahn besteht im Abschnitt zwischen der Anschlussstelle St. Jakob im Rosenthal und der
> Staatsgrenze im Karawankentunnel und umgekehrt keine Vignettenpflicht. Für diesen Bereich ist nur die Sondermaut in
> Höhe von 7 Euro für die Einzelfahrt zu bezahlen.
> 
> Wir hoffen, Ihnen damit geholfen zu haben und verbleiben
> 
> mit freundlichen Grüßen
> 
> Christine Staubmann
> Kundenmanagement
> Backoffice


No Vignette needed anywhere between border and St. Jakob.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

How many people would actually drive these routes while avoiding the vignette? It's hugely time-consuming to avoid the vignette-strecken.


----------



## hofburg

^people whose destination is Villach 


prasak said:


> Hi, I am coming from Slovenia to Villach through Karawanken tunnel.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> How many people would actually drive these routes while avoiding the vignette? It's hugely time-consuming to avoid the vignette-strecken.


It makes sense, if you're going to Villach or Velden am Wörthersee (tourist town). I did it once. In Slovenia it makes a lot of sense, if you're only going to Bled or Bohinj, especially since our vignettes are more expensive.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> How many people would actually drive these routes while avoiding the vignette? It's hugely time-consuming to avoid the vignette-strecken.


Going from Italy to Munich, in Austria I always drive B182 instead of A13 and B171 instead of A12, up to Zirl where I take B177/E533, so I spare Vignette and Sondermaut


----------



## cinxxx

^^what is the time difference for that?


----------



## g.spinoza

cinxxx said:


> ^^what is the time difference for that?


Not much. Going via E533 instead of Inntal Autobahn is shorter, so time is more or less the same (München-Innsbruck). Crossing Innsbruck and driving B182 instead of A13 leads to delay, but apart from the very first km (up until Europa bridge) the rest of the road is quite fast. Brenner-Munich total delay can be half hour, maybe one hour if there's traffic.


----------



## bogdymol

My personal opinion is that for Italy > Munchen route it's better to drive on A13 (Brenner Autobahn) and then take B177. This way you pay only the A13 toll, but you don't need the Austrian vignette.


----------



## g.spinoza

You're right, but to me the A13 Sondermaut is outrageously expensive. Frequent users can get a discount by using videomaut, if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## bogdymol

It's € 8,50. It's not very cheap, but if you compare it with Italian motorways tolls...


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> It's € 8,50. It's not very cheap, but if you compare it with Italian motorways tolls...


... you find out that for the same amount of money you drive 100km on Italian A22, while the Austrian A13 is some 30 km long.


----------



## prasak

Tnx to all of you for such an effort to answer my question! So, no need to buy a vignette tomorrow


----------



## hofburg

hehe for a simple question he got a deep analysis of the problem backed up with photos, maps and even an email to Asfinag  gotta love this forum


----------



## MichiH

KingNick said:


> A4 on the section VIE - Fischamend will be extended to 3 lanes each direction. Construction is scheduled to start next year.


The works will begin in April 2014, see press release. The carriageway towards Vienna will be widened in 2014, the carriageway towards Hungary in 2015. Completion: Fall 2015. Costs: 32 million €. OSM.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A26 Voestbrücke, Linz*

The Voest Bridge across the Danube in Linz will be renovated.

They are going to build two parallel cable-stayed spans for local traffic between 2017 and 2019, after which the main bridge will be renovated between 2020 and 2021. The bypass bridges will handle traffic during renovation. After renovation, the current 2x3 lane main bridge will be narrowed to 2x2 lanes with shoulders to increase safety. There are two interchanges immediately before and after the bridge.

The winning bridge design:


----------



## bogdymol

*A4 motorway, between the Hungarian border and Wien:*


----------



## Kanadzie

I like the changeable direction sign. I guess, sometimes the road goes to Praha, and other times, it goes to Berlin instead :lol: Or maybe the Praha (CZ) changes to Prag (A)


----------



## Fargo Wolf

Interesting sound wall design.


----------



## cinxxx

A4 seems to be in the same bad shape as of the last years...


----------



## JackFrost

^^it has been repaved between Fischamend and A6 last year. the section between A6 and HU border is still pretty bad.


----------



## bogdymol

*Some major works going on on S1 expressway (Wien south-east bypass):*


----------



## rower2000

Kanadzie said:


> I like the changeable direction sign. I guess, sometimes the road goes to Praha, and other times, it goes to Berlin instead :lol: Or maybe the Praha (CZ) changes to Prag (A)


It is changeable for deviations in case of S1 or A23 closures. That way, Vienna traffic can be rerouted via S1 or Linz-bound traffic via A23.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

What are they constructing on S1? That stretch opened in 2006. 

S1 was underdesigned from the beginning. It carried 70,000 vehicles per day within 3 years of completion.


----------



## KingNick

Looks like they are building an Einhausung, for some reason.


----------



## pierre21

It's the construction site for the new railway container terminal in inzersdorf. They extend the existing tunnel and build a new interchange for the terminal.


----------



## cinxxx

What do you think, can I switch to summer tires for Easter and drive towards Lake Garda without problems?


----------



## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> What are they constructing on S1? That stretch opened in 2006.
> 
> S1 was underdesigned from the beginning. It carried 70,000 vehicles per day within 3 years of completion.


The S1 would be relieved by completing the S31 to the A4 at Parndorf. Right now, many trucks go through Vienna on the S1 which should be bypassing Vienna to the south.


----------



## m_rocco

^^ any news about S31 extension to Parndorf? 
Thanks a lot


----------



## italystf

It's not U/C yet and it is planned as contry road, not motorway.
http://translate.google.it/translat...rg/wiki/Burgenland_Schnellstra%C3%9Fe&act=url

Unfortunately, also the existing part of S31 is undivided:


----------



## m_rocco

So the missing section between Eisenstadt and Parndorf will be only an upgrade of B50. Looking at openstreetmap is projected only Schützen bypass


----------



## JackFrost

italystf said:


> Unfortunately, also the existing part of S31 is undivided:


its a full profile motorway between Mattersburg and Eisenstadt


----------



## KingNick

pierre21 said:


> It's the construction site for the new railway container terminal in inzersdorf. They extend the existing tunnel and build a new interchange for the terminal.


You're right:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That looks similar to the intermodal yard across A1 in Hamburg.


----------



## bogdymol

*Some pictures with A1 motorway between Wien and St. Pölten:*


----------



## Attus

Several years ago intersections were signed in directions signs as "Knoten" (e.g. "Knoten Vösendorf"). Nowadays I never see such signs, everywhere the graphical sign of a motorway intersection is displayed, just like in the picture below (just googled). 
Can you tell me approximately when was this change applied?


----------



## albiman

What are they building there? A HSR tunnel?


----------



## thun

It guess it has to do something with the connection of Westbahn to the new main station. :dunno:


----------



## rower2000

albiman said:


> What are they building there? A HSR tunnel?


No, it's the freight rail bypass of St. Pölten (Güterzugumfahrung St. Pölten). The high speed line goes via St. Pölten main station, but to increase capacity, a bypass for cargo trains is built there.

http://www.oebb.at/infrastruktur/de...eckenschluss_St._Poelten_-_Loosdorf/index.jsp


----------



## MichiH

*S10*

The design contract for the next S10 section is tendered. The planning will take about one year. The EIS for the *S10 Rainbach bypass* (map) is announced to be done until late 2018 or early 2019. Afterwards the construction could start within one year (~2020). Estimated costs: 180-200 million €. The last section up to the Czech border is undated. Source.


----------



## Pepov

I have got a short question. On the crossing roads 40 and 7 near Wilfersdorf there is camera for red light violation or speed only?


----------



## Suburbanist

Question: has Salzurg dropped that ridiculous 100km/h speed limit for environmental reasons?


----------



## bogdymol

I don't know about Salzburg, but yesterday the 100 km/h (IG-L) speed limit was turned on on A1 close to Linz. This was on a Sunday with no trucks and relatively small car traffic.


----------



## hofburg

Suburbanist said:


> Question: has Salzurg dropped that ridiculous 100km/h speed limit for environmental reasons?


no, and usually it's turned on.


----------



## Moravian

Hainburg an der Donau - national road No.9 (Wien - Bratislava):


----------



## mcarling

Moravian said:


> Hainburg an der Donau - national road No.9 (Wien - Bratislava):


That was the only road between Vienna and Bratislava until the A6 opened. :eek2:


----------



## Verso

^ The main road, not the only road. But yes, it's narrow.


----------



## Fargo Wolf

Moravian said:


> Hainburg an der Donau - national road No.9 (Wien - Bratislava):


Cool. kay:


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

When is construction of a A5 going to start?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Are you a brother of Pascal20?


----------



## JackFrost

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> When is construction of a A5 going to start?


this summer

http://www.asfinag.at/documents/101...50b8a-1f91-4e9c-b47c-ed240efa6973?version=1.0


----------



## čarli1

Jack_Frost said:


> this summer
> 
> http://www.asfinag.at/documents/101...50b8a-1f91-4e9c-b47c-ed240efa6973?version=1.0


On this link as i understand they gonna build in 5 LOTs. But still there will not go all the way to the border. Why is that? Is that because they are waiting CZ to start building their part near the border?


----------



## mcarling

čarli;113379638 said:


> Is that because they are waiting CZ to start building their part near the border?


Yes.


----------



## Kanadzie

and CZ waits for Austria to start


----------



## čarli1

Kanadzie said:


> and CZ waits for Austria to start


Will CZ start before 2016?


----------



## mcarling

Kanadzie said:


> and CZ waits for Austria to start





čarli;113381989 said:


> Will CZ start before 2016?


My guess is that the CZ response to these A5 works will be to upgrade the single carriageway route 52 to R52 expressway between Pohorelice and Mikulov, starting after 2015 but within the 2014-2020 EU funding cycle. I guess that Mikulov to the border will probably wait for Austria to start works on the remainder of the A5. Just a guess.


----------



## mapman:cz

mcarling said:


> My guess is that the CZ response to these A5 works will be to upgrade the single carriageway route 52 to R52 expressway between Pohorelice and Mikulov, starting after 2015 but within the 2014-2020 EU funding cycle. I guess that Mikulov to the border will probably wait for Austria to start works on the remainder of the A5. Just a guess.


Wild guess... 

Because of problems with regional spacial document of South-Moravian Region, the construction will not commence before 2018. The whole missing section (excl. the part along the Nové Mlýny Basin) is expected to be ready until 2027 in three phases.


----------



## JackFrost

Today widening of A4 from Vienna to Neusiedl am See began. Project schedule as follows:










A23xA4 interchange will be modernized as well, and at the end of 2017 it will look like this:





[/QUOTE]


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A1 St. Pölten*

I noticed these bridges alongside A1 in St. Pölten. Does anyone know what they are for? Is it an old road or maybe an old railroad?


----------



## bavarian urbanist

As far as I know, it is part of the planned bypass for cargo trains...


----------



## Wilhem275

Exactly.

Begins here: https://maps.google.it/maps?ll=48.212999,15.670881&spn=0.006206,0.009645&gl=it&t=k&z=17

Follows S33 and A1, the ends here: https://maps.google.it/maps?ll=48.187277,15.454566&spn=0.012417,0.01929&gl=it&t=k&z=16


----------



## Road_UK

They didn't get very far then...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Apparently these bridges were built in 1999-2000 but then works were stopped due to prioritization issues.

http://www.oebb.at/infrastruktur/de...eckenschluss_St._Poelten_-_Loosdorf/index.jsp


----------



## Wilhem275

They don't have capacity issues at the moment, so it's really not a priority.

I didn't know there's a tunnel in the middle.


----------



## KingNick

Road_UK said:


> They didn't get very far then...


It is under construction right now. Picture updates can be found here:

http://www.bahnforum.info/smf/index.php?topic=96405.72


----------



## Wilhem275

Wilhem275 said:


> They don't have capacity issues at the moment, so it's really not a priority.


So it seems it had become one :lol:


----------



## cinxxx

A few pictures from my recent trip to Italy...

*A12*

AUT_A12 von cinxxx auf Flickr


AUT_A12 von cinxxx auf Flickr


AUT_A12 von cinxxx auf Flickr

*A13*


AUT_A12 von cinxxx auf Flickr


AUT_A13 von cinxxx auf Flickr

I will return with more from the return trip to Germany later


----------



## cinxxx

*Brenner Strasse - B182*
I spared myself the toll on A13 by driving the free road. Not much traffic, pretty relaxing.


AUT_B182 von cinxxx auf Flickr


AUT_B182 von cinxxx auf Flickr


AUT_B182 von cinxxx auf Flickr


AUT_B182 von cinxxx auf Flickr


AUT_B182 von cinxxx auf Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

*The Europabrücke on A13*


AUT_B182 von cinxxx auf Flickr


AUT_B182 von cinxxx auf Flickr

*Arriving in Innsbruck*


Innsbruck von cinxxx auf Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

*A12* - IGL limitation at 100 km/h - such a boring drive...


AUT_A12 von cinxxx auf Flickr


AUT_A12 von cinxxx auf Flickr


----------



## Eulanthe

I really wish they wouldn't use those stupid ovals in such contexts. If it's really such a big problem to use names in the other country, then just put the name of the (old) border crossing and get it over and done with.


----------



## mcarling

Eulanthe said:


> I really wish they wouldn't use those stupid ovals in such contexts. If it's really such a big problem to use names in the other country, then just put the name of the (old) border crossing and get it over and done with.


I completely disagree. In my opinion, the name of the towns on the former borders are the worst possible option.


----------



## Eulanthe

mcarling said:


> I completely disagree. In my opinion, the name of the towns on the former borders are the worst possible option.


It's not ideal, but it's better than those horrible ovals that say absolutely nothing. I'm looking at that picture now and I have absolutely no idea what part of SLO or I that I would arrive in - it's useless.


----------



## mcarling

Eulanthe said:


> It's not ideal, but it's better than those horrible ovals that say absolutely nothing. I'm looking at that picture now and I have absolutely no idea what part of SLO or I that I would arrive in - it's useless.


A tiny town I've never heard of and don't even know which country it's in is even less useful. At least I know where Slovenia is. Also, knowing which country I'm headed toward and the distance to the border may alert me to the need to buy a vignette.


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> It's not ideal, but it's better than those horrible ovals that say absolutely nothing. I'm looking at that picture now and I have absolutely no idea what part of SLO or I that I would arrive in - it's useless.


You should know where you are, at least approximately. For Italy it's totally clear which part is meant. As for Slovenia: if you went to Maribor, you'd turn left, towards Klagenfurt, but not many people will do that, and the Karawanken Tunnel is much closer than Lavamünd, so you can dismiss it IMO. It sucks if you're going to Kranjska Gora though.


----------



## rheintram

Here's something about the *A14 Rheintalautobahn* I read a couple of days ago:

There are some parts of this Autobahn, especially around Dornbirn Nord, where the Tarmac is already one thick layer of over 70 cm. That is because of the problematic geological situation there and the need to level the street's surface. Much of the Rhine Valley used to be a swamp. When the Autobahn was built, they foresaw the problem and prepared the ground with 7m of ballast. Apparently that wasn't enough, the Autobahn keeps sinking and now the deepest points of its base go 12 m below the ground! 

That's pretty much why - if you ever drive from Germany via Austria to Switzerland - you will almost all the time encounter construction works between Bregenz and Dornbirn Nord.


----------



## MichiH

*A5*

http://noe.orf.at/news/stories/2653772/

Some citizens' initiatives complaint about a water right order and a nature conservancy order for the A5. The tender procedure is completed but the contracts will not be in force until the complaints are dismissed. The ASFINAG still wants to start construction in 2014 but delays are most likely. Total costs: 320 million €.


----------



## bogdymol

A4 Autobahn direction Wien, before Fischamend exit, right now:


----------



## Coccodrillo

Apparently Austrian drivers understood how Rettungsgasse works, but not why it is needed. Otherwise they wouldn't stand where rescue vehicles are likely to run at speed...


----------



## Road_UK

It's a straight road. You can hear and see emergency services from miles away....


----------



## celevac

Austrian ASFINAG has announced new deadlines: 

http://www.asfinag.at/newsroom?-7247160#ap-inside-view-full

The most interesting parts of this press release:

- A5 Schrick-Poysbrunn will be built from the 2nd half of 2014 until 2017

- S7 Fürstenfeld expressway (will connect the A2 near Fürstenfeld, Styria with the Hungarian border at Heiligenkreuz) - western part (Riegersdorf-Dobersdorf) 2nd half of 2015 until 2019

Some more plans for the greater Vienna metropolitan area (S1 expressway) 

Construction of A26 Linz bypass will start in the 2nd half of 2015, expected opening of the first section in 2018

However, all announced sections are awaiting approval - the environmental impact assessment is still pending. Therefore, I presume that delays are likely, especially for the S7...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

S7 has been delayed several times over the past 5 years. Back in late 2009, it was planned to begin in 2010, then 2012, then 2014, and now second half of 2015...


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

> *Asfinag investiert mehr in bestehende Straßen*
> 
> 30. Juni 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *460 statt 320 Millionen Euro pro Jahr für Autobahnen und Schnellstraßen - Neue Lärmschutzverordnung in Begutachtung*
> 
> Wien - Für die Erhaltung und Sanierung des bestehenden Autobahn- und Schnellstraßennetzes steht in den kommenden Jahren mehr Geld zur Verfügung. Das hat die Autobahngesellschaft Asfinag am Montag bei einer Pressekonferenz in Wien angekündigt. Gleichzeitig versprach das Verkehrsministerium klare Regelungen für den Schutz der Anrainer vor Lärm. Eine diesbezügliche Verordnung kam am Montag in Begutachtung.
> 
> [...]


^^
*Highway maintenance:*
--->ASFINAG will invest 460 million €uro a year and not 320 million like previously planned

*New construction projects:*
--->ASFINAG hopes to get soon the green light for the Fürstenfelder Schnellstraße (S7), the S1 in Vienna between Schwechat and Süßenbrunn and for the A26 near Linz

*Mühlviertler Schnellstraße (S10):*
---> A planned tunnel on the new stretch won´t be built. It´s too expensive. ASFINAG hopes to find another solution.


----------



## rower2000

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> ^^
> ^^
> *Highway maintenance:*
> --->ASFINAG will invest 460 million €uro a year and not 320 million like previously planned


This is not an increase above previous plannings for this year, but an increase above the average value over the last six years (see the original press release: http://www.asfinag.at/newsroom?-7294778#ap-inside-view-full)


Deadeye Reloaded said:


> *Mühlviertler Schnellstraße (S10):*
> ---> A planned tunnel on the new stretch won´t be built. It´s too expensive. ASFINAG hopes to find another solution.


Do you know if this is simply the change from the originally planned tunnel under Reinbach to the Western bypass which was announced last fall? Would make sense to me, AFAIK there is no other long tunnel planned on the Northern section of S10.
http://www.nachrichten.at/oberoeste...Nord-wird-ueber-Summerau-gebaut;art69,1250975
(original plan was "Variante Mitte", now changed to "Variante West" - which definitely makes sense IMHO!, but the NIMBYs are already out and shouting...)

Btw, your source link does not work. It's from the Standard newspaper:
http://***************/200000248158...-in-bestehende-Autobahnen-und-Schnellstrassen

Edit: type "der Standard .at" without the spaces instead of the *s, no clue what the forum software has against the Standard...


----------



## albiman

is there any plan to connect one day S31 (Eisenstadt) with A6 (Pandorf)?


----------



## bogdymol

That would be a great ideea. A4 Parndorf-Wien is crowded every time I pass through that area. Thid connection should make things a little bit better.


----------



## rower2000

bogdymol said:


> That would be a great ideea. A4 Parndorf-Wien is crowded every time I pass through that area. Thid connection should make things a little bit better.


That connection is not planned; however, Vienna -> Kn Bruckneudorf (A6) will be extended to 3+3. The relation Budapest/Bratislava -> Graz is negligible on that stretch of road, it's Vienna itself what generates the amount of traffic there.


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

rower2000 said:


> [...]
> 
> Do you know if this is simply the change from the originally planned tunnel under Reinbach to the Western bypass which was announced last fall? Would make sense to me, AFAIK there is no other long tunnel planned on the Northern section of S10.
> http://www.nachrichten.at/oberoeste...Nord-wird-ueber-Summerau-gebaut;art69,1250975
> (original plan was "Variante Mitte", now changed to "Variante West" - which definitely makes sense IMHO!, but the NIMBYs are already out and shouting...)


^^
Your guess is correct. :yes: They won´t construct the tunnel under Reinbach. 





rower2000 said:


> Btw, your source link does not work. It's from the Standard newspaper:
> http://***************/200000248158...-in-bestehende-Autobahnen-und-Schnellstrassen
> 
> Edit: type "der Standard .at" without the spaces instead of the *s, no clue what the forum software has against the Standard...


^^
Yeah there seems to be a problem with the forum software when you use "der Standard" as source. :dunno:


----------



## JackFrost

^^just change the d to t in "standard" and the link will work

voilá: http://derstandart.at/2000002481582...-in-bestehende-Autobahnen-und-Schnellstrassen


----------



## Eulanthe

celevac said:


> A5 Schrick-Poysbrunn will be built from the 2nd half of 2014 until 2017


I can only hope. It really will make a huge difference - I remember when coming from Zadar, this section felt incredibly dangerous. I had it planned quite well - first break at the SLO/HR border, second break near Weiner Neustadt, third break on the Czech D1 (with small 5 minute breaks along the way too) - and the missing link of the A5 really was difficult on such a long drive.


----------



## Moravian

rower2000 said:


> That connection is not planned; however, Vienna -> Kn Bruckneudorf (A6) will be extended to 3+3. The relation Budapest/Bratislava -> Graz is negligible on that stretch of road, it's Vienna itself what generates the amount of traffic there.


At least...smaller progress on the B50 between Eisenstadt (S31) and Parndorf (A4) is going to be achieved. The bypass of Schützen will be opened in 2015......

http://burgenland.orf.at/news/stories/2639274/


----------



## SRC_100

Eulanthe said:


> I can only hope. It really will make a huge difference - I remember when coming from Zadar, this section felt incredibly dangerous. I had it planned quite well - first break at the SLO/HR border, second break near Weiner Neustadt, third break on the Czech D1 (with small 5 minute breaks along the way too) - and the missing link of the A5 really was difficult on such a long drive.


Try this option: 
https://goo.gl/maps/dqEP5
It really works


----------



## cinxxx

Don't know if it was posted here before.
One of the most stupidest laws ever, paranoia and obsession about privacy and intimacy.


----------



## cougar1989

Last week I made a little roadtrip, here are the pictures


----------



## cougar1989




----------



## italystf

Will the S10 Unterweitersbach (A7) - Freistadt North, currently U/C, get autobahn status (speed limit 130)? Is the section Freistadt North - Czech border in planning stage?


----------



## MichiH

italystf said:


> Will the S10 Unterweitersbach (A7) - Freistadt North, currently U/C, get autobahn status (speed limit 130)?


IIRC, no.



italystf said:


> Is the section Freistadt North - Czech border in planning stage?


Yes, see project page.

The _Freistadt_ bypass will be opened in Mid of November 2014.


----------



## italystf

MichiH said:


> IIRC, no.


That's bad! Building a substandard highway on an important international corridor.


----------



## JackFrost

MichiH said:


> IIRC, no.


Really? I have never seen a 2x2 S-road in Austria which havent been classified as a motorway. Or do you mean it will be signed as a motorway, and they post a 100-110 km/h limit on it?


----------



## MichiH

^^ I've no idea about the classification but I remember that the speed limit will be lower than 130.


----------



## rower2000

Jack_Frost said:


> Really? I have never seen a 2x2 S-road in Austria which havent been classified as a motorway. Or do you mean it will be signed as a motorway, and they post a 100-110 km/h limit on it?


I assume it will be classified as a motorway, but given that 10 km of the 22 km are in tunnels, and the longest stretch outside a tunnel is only about 2.5 km long (between Ganglsiedlung UFT and Walchshof UFT), I would think that the whole stretch will be limited to 100 km/h (100-130-100 on a 2.5 km stretch does not make any sense).


----------



## JackFrost

^^yes, most probably. they should rename it as A7 anyway...


----------



## rower2000

Jack_Frost said:


> ^^yes, most probably. they should rename it as A7 anyway...


Amen to that. There should be a couple of renumberings in Austria IMHO anyway:

S1 -> A21
S2 -> A23
S5/S31 -> A22
A11 -> A10
A9 -> A8 or A8 South -> A9 and A25 -> A8
S10 -> A7


----------



## Road_UK

A12 all the way from Kufstein to Bregenz? It's all gerade aus anyway...


----------



## italystf

rower2000 said:


> I assume it will be classified as a motorway, but given that 10 km of the 22 km are in tunnels, and the longest stretch outside a tunnel is only about 2.5 km long (between Ganglsiedlung UFT and Walchshof UFT), I would think that the whole stretch will be limited to 100 km/h (100-130-100 on a 2.5 km stretch does not make any sense).


Many Austrian motorways (also A-numbered) have speed limits lower than 130 because of tunnels and\or curves. It doesn't mean that they aren't motorways though, 130 is only the max s.l. allowed on motorways, not the only one possible.


rower2000 said:


> Amen to that. There should be a couple of renumberings in Austria IMHO anyway:
> 
> S1 -> A21
> S2 -> A23
> S5/S31 -> A22
> A11 -> A10
> A9 -> A8 or A8 South -> A9 and A25 -> A8
> S10 -> A7


 Strange coincidence, Austrian A2 begins at A23 in Austria end ends at A23 in Italy.


----------



## JackFrost

Road_UK said:


> A12 all the way from Kufstein to Bregenz? It's all gerade aus anyway...


You have S16 in between, which is 2x1. As soon they widen it, I would rename it to A12 as well (which is not going to happen soon).



italystf said:


> Many Austrian motorways (also A-numbered) have speed limits lower than 130 because of tunnels and\or curves. It doesn't mean that they aren't motorways though, 130 is only the max s.l. allowed on motorways, not the only one possible. Strange coincidence, Austrian A2 begins at A23 in Austria end ends at A23 in Italy.


Yes, but whats the purpose of 2x2 S-roads in Austria? S5, S36 etc. are as good as any A-road. Speed limit is 130 km/h too.


----------



## KingNick

And whilst the A23 in Italy is among the greatest motorways, A23 at the other end is among the worst.


----------



## italystf

Jack_Frost said:


> You have S16 in between, which is 2x1. As soon they widen it, I would rename it to A12 as well (which is not going to happen soon).
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but whats the purpose of 2x2 S-roads in Austria? S5, S36 etc. are as good as any A-road. Speed limit is 130 km/h too.


Also in Germany many "Gelbe Autobahnnen" (B-roads with motorway standards) have 130 speed limit or no speed limit at all! Back to Austria, A9 has still some single-tube tunnels left, that won't be doubled before 2019 and A10 had two single-tube tunnels until few years ago. Still, they have\had A-numbers.


----------



## rower2000

Jack_Frost said:


> Yes, but whats the purpose of 2x2 S-roads in Austria? S5, S36 etc. are as good as any A-road. Speed limit is 130 km/h too.


Originally, the A network supposed to cover the main routes through Austria while the S roads were meant for the finer distribution in secondary areas. All S roads were originally meant to be 2+2 but had lower requirements for curve radii, junctions, lane width, etc. Nowadays, most new stretches get an S number because
a) there are no A numbers left which would fit geographically to the location and
b) they hope some NIMBYs will be fooled as it is only an expressway, not a motorway...


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

I have recently saw motorway in Austria which number is A462 .
So,are there any similar motorways in Austria or not ?


----------



## KingNick

There are no three-digit motorways in Austria.


----------



## m_rocco

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> I have recently saw motorway in Austria which number is A462 . So,are there any similar motorways in Austria or not ?


Maybe you've seen E462 in Czech republic or in Poland


----------



## JackFrost

No, google maps indeed shows an A462 east of Neusiedl am See. However, its just google


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

^^ That is what i saw.


----------



## bogdymol

I drove on that "A462" few years ago. It'a connection road to A4 and is signed as an expressway (blue sign with a car in it). I don't remember seeing any number though.


----------



## KingNick

Because it does not exist. In order to create a new Autobahn the so called Federal Street Act has to be amended, which never happend for an A462, but we already discussed the matter in this very thread.

Section "Verzeichnis 1": https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=10011428


----------



## italystf

Unfortunately, road naming\numbering errors aren't rare in Google Maps. They usually fix them, though. A462 is a 1+1 road, so it could never have an A-number.


----------



## Road_UK

I'll have a look on a good old paper map. Where is this road exactly?


----------



## Attus

Road_UK said:


> I'll have a look on a good old paper map. Where is this road exactly?


https://www.google.de/maps/@47.9333883,16.919227,13z


----------



## rower2000

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> I have recently saw motorway in Austria which number is A462 .
> So,are there any similar motorways in Austria or not ?


This is nowhere signposted, only some strange number appearing on google maps. In fact this is only the ramp of exit Gols/Weiden am See on A4. No idea why google maps calls that A462 (maybe some internal numbering of the federal highway administration?).


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Maybe there is going to be an new motorway.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Nope!


----------



## Nils de Gothia

rower2000 said:


> This is nowhere signposted, only some strange number appearing on google maps. In fact this is only the ramp of exit Gols/Weiden am See on A4. No idea why google maps calls that A462 (maybe some internal numbering of the federal highway administration?).


Maybe it means A4 Ramp 62.


----------



## rower2000

Nils de Gothia said:


> Maybe it means A4 Ramp 62.


I thought that too at first, but it's exit 51.


----------



## Nils de Gothia

rower2000 said:


> I thought that too at first, but it's exit 51.


Ramp number and exit number are two different things. Each exit has in general at least four ramps. They all have numbers and have their own Streckenkilometrierung. I´ve only seen this in Austria though, and unfortunately I´m not visiting this area very often. Is there anybody from the area who could check this out?


----------



## Verso

There was a 30-km queue before the Karawanken Tunnel today (over 2 hours of waiting). That means not only the A11, but also the A10 up to the interchange Villach West.

http://***************/2000003922592/Rund-200-Kilometer-Stau-auf-den-Transitrouten


----------



## KingNick

FYP.

http://derstandart.at/2000003922592/Rund-200-Kilometer-Stau-auf-den-Transitrouten

For some reason you cannot link to Standard's online page from SSC, therefore you have to misspell it with a t instead of a d at the end.


----------



## cinxxx

^^Has anyone read the comments? :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Many people insist on driving towards their holiday on Saturdays like a cattle of sheep.

However, I can't really care about that, it's their own choice, which leaves others with less busy roads during the week. 

I followed TomTom traffic and it appears that in Germany the Friday afternoons are worse than Saturday mornings. Friday afternoon means congestion everywhere, while on Saturdays it is limited to some severe congestion on A8/A9 around München, but otherwise doable. 

Congestion has been greatly reduced in Austria by twinning the tunnels, but sometimes there is still _Blockabfertigung_ if traffic gets really dense. 

The best is simply to avoid traveling long distances on Friday afternoons and Saturday mornings in July and early August. Even if there is no actual congestion, the dense traffic can be very tiring. No congestion doesn't mean you have low traffic on those days.


----------



## volodaaaa

Past 5 years, I drove on holidays on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays and the roads were literally empty.


----------



## čarli1

g.spinoza said:


> Agree to disagree. I prefer to be safe, than "free" (whatever this last word means). And surveillance for me, abiding the law, doesn't change a bit my life.


But what means safety for you? All totalitarian governments have the same excuse in the name of security. And then you have NSA who controls everything just because some ppl want to be "safe":nuts: 
One quote for you:
_He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.
Benjamin Franklin_


----------



## cinxxx

Suburbanist said:


> This reaction against CCTV in public places (like streets, plazas, the panel of a car) is just hysteria. If one doesn't want to be in a position to be tracked, one would have, for a starter, not to use a cell phone (the best "personal position tracking device" ever), deal with financial affairs only in cash, and go to extreme lengths to conceal location when using Internet.


Actually I know people that only pay in cash, always use proxies when browsing the Internet, don't have a Facebook account because of tracking. 

Some are very paranoid about privacy (Streetview), but do have a smartphone and Facebook, but say they can choose for themselves what to upload there and configure Facebook to behave like they want- 

I even heard some that turn their phone off and only use it when they want to call someone.

From a colleague I heard that her father won't upgrade the Internet connection at home (which is very slow), because of fear of the NSA.


----------



## g.spinoza

čarli;116336858 said:


> But what means safety for you? All totalitarian governments have the same excuse in the name of security. And then you have NSA who controls everything just because some ppl want to be "safe":nuts:


So what? Let them control: they are police, they HAVE to control. Otherwise we would just have to wait for a crime, then cry and call the police.

I abide the law and have nothing to hide. Surveillance only means that criminals are caught more easily: my life won't change.

If freedom means freedom to break the law, then I'm content with no freedom.


----------



## verreme

^^ Safety means freedom. Being _free_ to drive with no fear of being killed by some reckless driver means freedom. Same for going for a walk knowing that you're not likely to be robbed.

I don't favour excessive surveillance, especially when it comes to enforcing minor driving offences, but being safe means being free. And this dashcam issue is just crazy. I mean, I make road videos -and now I am offending people? Come on, it's nonsense. Do I affect someone's privacy when I post a picture of mine on Facebook and he or she is in the background?


----------



## g.spinoza

Didn't we go _a bit_ off topic?


----------



## Verso

_Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 31 (7 members and 24 guests)_ :runaway:


----------



## italystf

In Italy videos recorded by CCTVs are deleted after few days and if no crime\accident happens nobody look at them. They don't affect the privacy of individuals, they only may help to solve judiciary cases.
I think also individuals should be allowed to place CCTVs outside their property, to defend it from burglary and vandalism, but this is still a legal gray area, when the camera records a public place from a private property.
A different thing is posting on the net pictures of license plates spotted in x place the y day, since everybody may know where the owner was in that day. An app to track license plates like banknotes would of course be plain illegal. For this reason the thread "Strangest and most distance license plates you've spotted" was removed from SSC (and I must admit, I miss it).
Street View images should be fine because they show what everyone can see by walking or driving in the street, faces and plates are blurred, images are taken once in a while in a random day without monitoring costantly the area and people can already photograph public streets and post pics on the net.


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> Didn't we go a bit off topic?


I tried to keep it on topic by focusing on using dash cams on Austrian roads. I even added a video of the A10. But not to worry, it'll all be erased by sundown anyway.


----------



## panda80

And if we think that we also pay a lot because these people are against surveillance cameras...If there will be cameras on public spaces not so many cars would be stolen, so the insurance will be much cheaper, equally with house insurance. And for normal people that have nothing to hide it doesn't affect anything. What can I loose if NSA sees me everyday and I behave absolutely normal? How can someone use this against me?


----------



## PLH

What the heck?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Thread reopened. The dashcam issue is not totally off topic in this thread, but keep it close to the subject.


----------



## x-type

i am looking some facts about Gleinalm tunnel and i see that it's been built in the period 1873-1978. dafuq? 1873? can somebody give some explanation of it? was there only one part built in 19th century, and later tunnel was upgraded or what?


----------



## rower2000

x-type said:


> i am looking some facts about Gleinalm tunnel and i see that it's been built in the period 1873-1978. dafuq? 1873? can somebody give some explanation of it? was there only one part built in 19th century, and later tunnel was upgraded or what?


Sometimes the solution that makes the most sense is also the right one. It's a simple typo, it was built between 1973 and 1978...

For the source junkies: http://trid.trb.org/view.aspx?id=1043068


----------



## x-type

ok that makes sense.
frankly, i found that info at wikipedia and tried to check it at structurae.com, but there was only year of opening.


----------



## Eulanthe

Does anyone know anything interesting I can do between Spielfeld and Vienna?

I've been to Vienna and Graz, I've driven both motorway routes to Vienna, but is there anything worth stopping at on the way? 

(if anyone mentions snakes...)


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

The scenery looks nice,so you can stop at rest area and enjoy in it.


----------



## Eulanthe

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> The scenery looks nice,so you can stop at rest area and enjoy in it.


Done that many times, so 

If anyone knows of any amazingly picturesque towns/villages on the S6/S35/A2, please, share


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You could drive the old Semmering Pass.


----------



## x-type

Niki Lauda has a house near A9 between Spielfeld and Graz


----------



## BL2

Eulanthe said:


> Does anyone know anything interesting I can do between Spielfeld and Vienna?
> 
> I've been to Vienna and Graz, I've driven both motorway routes to Vienna, but is there anything worth stopping at on the way?
> 
> (if anyone mentions snakes...)


 Visit Zotter Chockolade Factory it is some 30km from motorway and they have chockolate tour through factory and you can eat as much chockolate as you want. 
Address:
Bergl 56
8333 Riergersburg

Close to motorway you can: 


Visit Rogner Bad Blumau, famous spa design by Hundertwasser. 
Address: 
Bad Blumau 100
8283 Bad Blumau

Walk around Hartberg, beutiful small town and drink their famous vine in town square Restaurant "Zum Brauhaus"

Visit beautiful town of Baden and beuatufiul Castle and park Laxenburg.


----------



## Eulanthe

x-type said:


> Niki Lauda has a house near A9 between Spielfeld and Graz


Is it definitely his? My wife is a landscape architect, and she spent a good hour there just looking at the garden. People on the internet said it was his, but we were never sure. 

(anyone who doesn't know what we're talking about - it's *the* house on the A9 between Spielfeld and Graz) 

We went several times, hoping to see a gardener so she could get a private tour of the garden  One of my colleagues remembers the house from going to Yugoslavia in 1990, too. I guess everyone notices it!

It was definitely up for sale recently as well, and what makes it even stranger is that there doesn't seem to be any sign whatsoever of life there. I stayed with someone living near there, and they said that it didn't seem like the house was ever actually used.

Chris, the Semmering pass looks like a good idea, thank you!


----------



## x-type

Eulanthe said:


> Is it definitely his? My wife is a landscape architect, and she spent a good hour there just looking at the garden. People on the internet said it was his, but we were never sure.
> 
> (anyone who doesn't know what we're talking about - it's *the* house on the A9 between Spielfeld and Graz)
> 
> We went several times, hoping to see a gardener so she could get a private tour of the garden  One of my colleagues remembers the house from going to Yugoslavia in 1990, too. I guess everyone notices it!
> 
> It was definitely up for sale recently as well, and what makes it even stranger is that there doesn't seem to be any sign whatsoever of life there. I stayed with someone living near there, and they said that it didn't seem like the house was ever actually used.
> 
> Chris, the Semmering pass looks like a good idea, thank you!


i am not sure how reliable that info is neither. but i remember that almost each tourist guide on trips at that area called our attention on that fact. however, it might be only a tourist hoax. also, somebody has put a photo of that house on Panoramio and named it Wurz (Alexander?) house, so maybe it has changed the owner. light googling doesn't give some information, it should be deeper.


----------



## Eulanthe

x-type said:


> i am not sure how reliable that info is neither. but i remember that almost each tourist guide on trips at that area called our attention on that fact. however, it might be only a tourist hoax. also, somebody has put a photo of that house on Panoramio and named it Wurz (Alexander?) house, so maybe it has changed the owner. light googling doesn't give some information, it should be deeper.


http://www.kleinezeitung.at/steiermark/leibnitz/3477046/auffaellige-hammerhaus-zu-haben.story

The whole story is just weirder and weirder - this article claims that the house is only partially used, and surely someone that owned a couple of shoe shops in small Styrian towns wouldn't be able to afford to build such a thing?

All very weird...


----------



## BL2

That is true what is said in newspaper


----------



## MichiH

*A5*



MichiH said:


> http://noe.orf.at/news/stories/2653772/
> 
> Some citizens' initiatives complaint about a water right order and a nature conservancy order for the A5. The tender procedure is completed but the contracts will not be in force until the complaints are dismissed. The ASFINAG still wants to start construction in 2014 but delays are most likely. Total costs: 320 million €.


http://standard.at/2000004518122/Weg-frei-fuer-den-Ausbau-der-Nordautobahn

They've capitulated. ASFINAG: The tender procedure will start soon (maybe even in August).

I guess the works on the A5 Schrick - Poysbrunn section could begun in early 2015.


----------



## JackFrost

^^Good news, but...

Gewaltandrohung?


----------



## MichiH

^^ Yes, "we capitulate because of the pressure and personal (verbal) attacks". "Defamation and threat of violence".


----------



## volodaaaa

Btw. what is repairing at A4 near Fishamend? New surface is being laid?


----------



## rower2000

volodaaaa said:


> Btw. what is repairing at A4 near Fishamend? New surface is being laid?


Vienna airport -> Fischamend is resurfaced and expanded to 3+3.


----------



## volodaaaa

^^ Very nice ;-)


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

The widening project started 23rd April 2014 and it should be finished 2017.


----------



## JackFrost

A4 will be widened to 2x3 all the way to Neusiedl/See in the upcoming years. If I remember correctly deadline is 2019, but i am not sure.


----------



## bogdymol

A4 until Fishamend will be widened to 3+3 lanes until autumn 2015 (that's what the signs in the area say). The long-term plan is to make it 3+3 all the way to Parndorf.

What it's missing from the network and also from the plans is a direct connection between Eisenstadt and Parndorf. That one-lane road is quite crowded.


----------



## mcarling

bogdymol said:


> The long-term plan is to make [the A4] 3+3 all the way to Parndorf.


Specifically to the A6? Or a few kilometers beyond?

I suppose by 2040, it will be a minimum of 2x3 all the way between Vienna and Budapest.


----------



## JackFrost

Here is a map about the scheduled constructions. A4 will be a shitty place to drive in this decade


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Is that stretch in concrete? It may explain why it takes up to 3 years to renovate it.


----------



## bogdymol

Entire A4 from Airport to the Hungarian border is with asphalt. Only the stretch from the Airport to Vienna is in concrete, but that part is already 3+3 until S1.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

mmmm. Up to 3 years for a 'generalsanierung' is quite long. Perhaps the foundation is the motorway is in concrete. Some motorways have a concrete foundation and asphalt top layer. Replacing concrete costs much more time and money than asphalt.

In the Netherlands they replaced a concrete motorway with asphalt (10 km) in under 1 year.


----------



## Road_UK

*Operation UK-F-I-AUSTRIA-D-L-B-F-UK*

Austria - Fernpass route





Getting really tired now. See how I looked in the Italy thread and how I look now. Just driven UK - Mont Blanc - Turin and Austria in one go, and still want to make it to Heilbronn before I can shut my eyes.






Also see France and Italy. Will post Germany, Luxembourg and Belgium later.


----------



## Attus

bogdymol said:


> Entire A4 from Airport to the Hungarian border is with asphalt. Only the stretch from the Airport to Vienna is in concrete, but that part is already 3+3 until S1.


And A4 has quite a bad surface quality. If you drive H -> A, after the border you may have the feeling Welcome to Africa. Which is awful because actually in Austria almost everything but motorways are better than in Hungary


----------



## John Maynard

Road_UK said:


> That toll is only because of the tunnel. Nothing else...


Yes, but it could have been included in the vignette hno:. Nothing else...


----------



## m_rocco

Regulars who must travel everyday, for example, Villach-Salzburg has to pay everyday two times Tauerntunnel? Or there is a sort of subsctiption?


----------



## hofburg

yes, videomaut. 1 year subscription is 103€, if you have also year vignette it is 63€.

http://www.asfinag.at/maut/sonder-und-videomaut


----------



## rower2000

hofburg said:


> yes, videomaut. 1 year subscription is 103€, if you have also year vignette it is 63€.
> 
> http://www.asfinag.at/maut/sonder-und-videomaut


And if you are a commuter, i.e., your residence and your workplace are on opposite ends of the Sondermautstrecke, the annual pass costs 38.50 Euro without a yearly vignette, and 0.00 Euro if you have an annual vignette.

Btw, the sections where a special toll is collected is exempt from the vignette, so technically you do not pay twice for that stretch...


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

John Maynard said:


> Most European countries do not charge for using their motorways/expressways (for cars), or simply requires a vignette only.


Are you kidding ?Italy has tolls,France,Spain,Portugal,Greece,Serbia,Croatia... have them too


----------



## John Maynard

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Are you kidding ?Italy has tolls,France,Spain,Portugal,Greece,Serbia,Croatia... have them too


Southern Europe is not all Europe :lol:.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Not that many countries have a (nearly) entirely untolled* motorway network. These countries are mostly in northwestern and northern Europe (B, D, DK, FIN, GB, L, NL, S). In case of trucks, only Finland and Estonia have no truck tolls.

* I'd like to avoid the term 'free', because no road comes free.

In case of Austria, it has one of the lowest fuel prices of high-income Europe, which compensates the vignette and tolls a bit. Also, the vignette may seem expensive, but you'll spend more money on fuel taxes if you refuel two times 50L than you pay on the annual vignette.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

John Maynard said:


> Southern Europe is not all Europe :lol:.


Some motorways in Poland are tolled,same in Ireland,Uk,Norway,Macedonia,Belarus.


----------



## John Maynard

But most of Europe do not collect tolls for sing their motorway/expressway network (for cars/motorbikes) - as previously posted - they use road/fuel taxes, and some add a vignette, instead. Austria is particular, as it often uses vignette and tolls on the same potion of motorway/expressway.

As for fuel prices in Austria, petrol is ~5 % cheaper, and diesel is ~10% cheaper than in Switzerland. But, GPD per capita is ~29% higher in Switzerland. 
Overall, CH is being cheaper in that field than A, and it has one of the lowest fuel and motorways prices of high-incomes Europe.


----------



## John Maynard

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Some motorways in Poland are tolled,same in Ireland,Uk,Norway,Macedonia,Belarus.


This is for EU only, but it shows that many countries are not based on tolls._ Note that in Spain and in Poland only few motorways/expressways are tolled, the others are free to use (cars):_


----------



## italystf

When did Lithuania leave the EU? :troll:

Croatia is missing from the map too, but there's the excuse that the map could be from before 1st July 2013.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

I didn't noticed that.


----------



## MrAkumana

John Maynard said:


> This is for EU only, but it shows that many countries are not based on tolls._ Note that in Spain and in Poland only few motorways/expressways are tolled, the others are free to use (cars):_


yes, this is bit simplistic... 

- as you say, around 60-70% of spanish motorways don't have any tolls of any kind. Same goes for Poland.

- Electronic tolls in Portugal are only aplied on certain motorways of their network, there are also physical barriers on many motorways.

- Denmark has tolls with physical barriers on their "bridge motorways".

- Even when they are not widespread, it must be pointed out that France and Italy have a significat amount of motorways/expressways without any tolls


----------



## John Maynard

italystf said:


> When did Lithuania leave the EU? :troll:
> 
> Croatia is missing from the map too, but there's the excuse that the map could be from before 1st July 2013.


The map is from 2012. As for Lithuania, ask this to the European Commission :nuts:.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://www.pragerzeitung.cz/index.p...utobahnverbindung-tschechien-oesterreich-2021

It is claimed that the S10-D3 cross-border motorway (Linz - České Budějovice) will be completed in 2021.


----------



## I(L)WTC

UK doesn't have tolls?


----------



## x-type

I(L)WTC said:


> UK doesn't have tolls?


only M5 and certain bridges do.


----------



## Road_UK

x-type said:


> only M5 and certain bridges do.


M5 is not tolled anywhere. M6 TOLL is (not M6 itself) and then several tunnels and bridges.


----------



## x-type

sorry, my mistake


----------



## Road_UK

You're forgiven.


----------



## x-type

in that case A9 is waiting for you!


----------



## Road_UK

mcarling said:


> ^^
> No need to be unkind. His question was not so unreasonable as to deserve ridicule.


Just a joke.


----------



## BL2

^^bad one


----------



## bigic

Is the road better in Slovenia than in Austria? 

Послато са ZTE Blade Q Mini уз помоћ Тапатока


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

bigic said:


> Is the road better in Slovenia than in Austria?
> 
> Послато са ZTE Blade Q Mini уз помоћ Тапатока


Quality of the roads are similar.In Slovenia pavement is better because motorways are newer then in Austria.In my opinion motorways are better in Slovenia then in Austria,but Austria has a plenty of long tunnels and motorways are more stunning .


----------



## celevac

Before everyone's going insane let me clarify some things. Information as of November 16, 2014 (yesterday):

Border SLO/A - Gersdorf: currently u/c, this has been the worst part of the entire A9 with huge potholes, until November 30
Gersdorf - Lebring: in average condition, good enough to drive without having to worry about potholes 
Lebring - Wildon: in almost perfect condition, new pavement from 2013
Wildon - Schwarzlsee: u/c until the end of the year. New pavement is already finished, expected to be finished by December 19. (Source: oeamtc.at)
Schwarzlsee - Graz Webling roundabout: good condition

I don't know why everyone's going off-topic because of this...


----------



## Verso

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Quality of the roads are similar.In Slovenia pavement is better because motorways are newer then in Austria.


Umm, the border checkpoint was opened already in 1991, and the motorway to Maribor in 1996, so 18 years ago.


----------



## rower2000

Verso said:


> Umm, the border checkpoint was opened already in 1991, and the motorway to Maribor in 1996, so 18 years ago.


Well, A9 between Graz and Vogau-Strass was built between 1978 and 1982, so it's 14 years older .


----------



## Verso

My point is that in 18 years asphalt deteriorates a lot, if you don't repave it. (also, it's older than Autoputevi kao hobi )


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

I was saying about overall network.Some sections of A2 are 4 or 5 years old.


----------



## Verso

About half the network is pretty old now. Most of it is in a good condition because of regular maintenance, including sections from 1970s.


----------



## Eulanthe

Verso said:


> Umm, the border checkpoint was opened already in 1991, and the motorway to Maribor in 1996, so 18 years ago.


Quick question - does anyone know how the area looked like? I'm guessing the motorway was open to the first exit in Slovenia (...Yugoslavia? did it open before independence? I don't think it did...) - but would I be right in guessing that trucks had to use the old border crossing?


----------



## Verso

Eulanthe said:


> Quick question - does anyone know how the area looked like? I'm guessing the motorway was open to the first exit in Slovenia (...Yugoslavia? did it open before independence? I don't think it did...) - but would I be right in guessing that trucks had to use the old border crossing?


I don't know about trucks. That section was opened on 18.9.1991 and you drove this way (same way in the other direction, you crossed to the other side of the motorway at the end).


----------



## AcidMan

*Speed limit lowered on Tyrol motorways*

_A permanent speed limit of 100 km/h will be introduced for cars travelling on large sections of Austria’s Inn Valley motorway (A12) and Brenner motorway (A13) on November 20th - in an effort to improve air quality. _

http://www.thelocal.at/20141118/speed-limit-lowered-for-cars-on-a12-and-a13


----------



## ChrisZwolle

My god, Kufstein - Zirl is around 90 kilometers of 100 km/h motorway...

Absolutely ridiculous. Cars are cleaner than ever.


----------



## JackFrost

hno:

I guess this will be the longest piece of a full profile motorway in Europe to be "downgraded" to 100 km/h...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A few years ago, there was some buzz about € 2000 fines for exceeding the speed limit in IG-L zones. It was argued that these fines were not for speeding, but for environmental offenses. Do they actually issue such high fines in IG-L zones, or is it only from a certain speed (like >30 km/h over the limit)?


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> My god, Kufstein - Zirl is around 90 kilometers of 100 km/h motorway...
> 
> Absolutely ridiculous. Cars are cleaner than ever.


It is a bit of a drag, that is true. But let's face it: Amsterdam to Dordrecht is also a pain in the ass with its 100 and even 80 in places...


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> A few years ago, there was some buzz about € 2000 fines for exceeding the speed limit in IG-L zones. It was argued that these fines were not for speeding, but for environmental offenses. Do they actually issue such high fines in IG-L zones, or is it only from a certain speed (like >30 km/h over the limit)?


€600 in IG-L zones I have been told, but I never got any. 110 kph is acceptable though, you won't get nothing.


----------



## bogdymol

I drove numerous times on A1 east of Linz, and I still haven't managed to understand why it's the IG-L turned on. Sometimes the motorway is so busy that you can't drive faster than 100-110 km/h, but IG-L is off (many cars = much pollution, but IG-L off). On one evening the motorway was absolutely empty, but IG-L was turned on. (no cars on the road, but IG-L said that polution levels are too high). 

It's a complete nonsense. :bash:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A1 West Autobahn*

9 kilometers of A1 eastbound has been widened to three lanes, from Ybbs to Pochlärn.

http://www.asfinag.at/newsroom?-9702300#ap-inside-view-full


----------



## Road_UK

@Verreme: Does this mean that they got rid of the 80 limits on motorways through and around Barcelona?


----------



## patakcze

ChrisZwolle said:


> 9 kilometers of A1 eastbound has been widened to three lanes, from Ybbs to Pochlärn.


Does it mean that A1 has 3+3 lanes all the way from St. Pölten to Linz?


----------



## JackFrost

Only eastbound. There is still a 2 lane section for about 10 kilometers around Pochlarn.


----------



## verreme

Road_UK said:


> @Verreme: Does this mean that they got rid of the 80 limits on motorways through and around Barcelona?


They removed them in 2011. Some of them have now variable speed limits that are set to 80 on days with heavy pollution, but I don't remember this happening anytime this year. _Rondes_ keep being 80 km/h (they always were), but most of the network is back to pre-2008 speed limits (120 or 100).


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Is there any section of A1 which is under widening project ?


----------



## Christian_AT

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Is there any section of A1 which is under widening project ?


not at the moment

it is only one part missing: ybbs - matzleinsdorf - 5km - both directions
(announced to be done until 2018)


----------



## Road_UK

^^ Welcome


----------



## MichiH

*S10 Freistadt*



MichiH said:


> The official opening ceremony took place today. The S10 will be opened for traffic tomorrow morning, see press release.


Little mistake...

Source: nachrichten.at.


----------



## Ni3lS

Maybe it's a sign.. :smug:


----------



## Road_UK

There is no A10 anywhere near Linz. Trust the Austrians to mess a sign up and put it in place anyway...


----------



## MichiH

Ni3lS said:


> Maybe it's a sign.. :smug:


Should be A7 b/c S10 is just an A7 extension...

Well, maybe S10 will be continued one day (eastern _Linz_ bypass). Is there any news about it?


----------



## Christian_AT

MichiH said:


> Should be A7 b/c S10 is just an A7 extension...
> 
> Well, maybe S10 will be continued one day (eastern _Linz_ bypass). Is there any news about it?


that is very longtherm, eastern linz bypass after 2025

a lot of information in german:
http://www.land-oberoesterreich.gv.at/cps/rde/xchg/ooe/hs.xsl/112626_DEU_HTML.htm

(only to find possible routes and stop buildings there which block the "last" options at the moment)










now there are 4 variants left officially (red ones), the rightest possibilty is not realistic, geological difficult and not really cheaper to the longer tunnel solution


----------



## MichiH

Christian_AT said:


> the rightest possibilty is not realistic, geological difficult and not really cheaper to the longer tunnel solution


Are both eastern routes not realistic?


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

MichiH said:


> Should be A7 b/c S10 is just an A7 extension...
> 
> Well, maybe S10 will be continued one day (eastern _Linz_ bypass). Is there any news about it?


Maybe A9?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

How necessary is a third bypass of Linz? A26-A7-S10?


----------



## MichiH

^^ Well, the A7 is an urban motorway. Very crowded (I couldn't find AADT). The predicted AADT 2030 of the future A26 is 62,000 vehicles/day. Works should begin in 2015 but it's only 4.7km (650 million €). A26 project page.

I think, an eastern bypass is necessary, especially if S10/D3 are completed one day.


----------



## x-type

what is the progress of Götschka tunnel, is it going to be opened by the end of the next year? it might be one of steeper known tunnels (160 m on 4,5 km). 

when they connect the northern portal of Neumarkt tunnel with newly existing S10, it will be really nice piece of motorway


----------



## rheintram

An update on the *Austrian-Swiss-Autobahn link* (formerly known as S18). So two options are left on the table:

* *Bypass Lustenau East (CP):* This one would use the existing L204, 2+2 lane, between Dornbirn and the entry of Lustenau, which would become Autobahn. Just before Lustenau a new bypass road would branch off to the North, along the East of Lustenau. Further north a new interchange would serve the northern part of Lustenau. It would then follow the borders of the settlement, cross the Rhine and then connect to the existing St. Margrethen (CH) interchange.

There is no up to date map of this proposal available. It is also the less likely one of the two, as it will affect a much larger part of the Lustenau population (it is quite close to the built up area and many people own fields in the East of the town that would have to be expropriated from them). Estimates are around € 615 million in a 2+2 configuration.

Here's an info graphic from 2009:








One big problem here: If L204 were to be turned into an Autobahn, L41 and L42 - which according to the original CP variant proposal would be closed, would have to stay open, so people without a vignette could travel between Lustenau and Dornbirn.

* *Route Z:* This completely new Autobahn would branch off the existing Dornbirn Nord interchange, lead almost completely straight eastwards to Lustenau, were it would connect to the Swiss network in an S-loop, similar to the CP proposal. The big question about the Z proposal - which is favorite by most (even those who are against a street, would prefer this one) is the implementation. There are basically two options: a) part trench/part cut and cover (between 527m for 1+1 and 607m for 2+2) b) sub-surface mining (800m or 900m).

here's the latest plan:









The municipality of Fußach, which will be affected by the motorway bridge over the Rhine lobbies for a tunnel instead of a bridge. Though this is unlikely to ever happen, as it would massively increase the costs and there is no realistic proposal on how to connect this tunnel to the Swiss Autobahn.


----------



## Road_UK

Isn't the quickest link at Hohenems-Diepoldsau? I always use that going in and out of Swiss because it only takes 5 minutes from motorway to motorway. (unless the Swiss guards are in a bad mood, they're still out there...)


----------



## thun

That one would proabably be way too South in order to light traffic on Bodenseestraße and the link at Lustenau (i.e. for Northbound traffic/traffic coming from Germany).


----------



## rower2000

Road_UK said:


> Isn't the quickest link at Hohenems-Diepoldsau? I always use that going in and out of Swiss because it only takes 5 minutes from motorway to motorway. (unless the Swiss guards are in a bad mood, they're still out there...)


In Northern Lustenau/Southern Höchst are some pretty important industrial areas creating quite some commuter traffic. The Z proposal would also provide for those needs.


----------



## Road_UK

Fair enough. It would serve the traffic between Innsbruck and St Gallen/Zürich well though...


----------



## italystf

Even if the distance between the Austrian A14 and the Swiss A13 is very short, it's weird that two prosperous European countries don't have any motorway link between them. Traffic through Lustenau must be very bad currently, since it is a real bottleneck.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> Isn't the quickest link at Hohenems-Diepoldsau? I always use that going in and out of Swiss because it only takes 5 minutes from motorway to motorway. (unless the Swiss guards are in a bad mood, they're still out there...)


The Swiss Guards? These guys? http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110530185306/deadliestfiction/images/7/7c/SwissGuard.jpg


----------



## rower2000

italystf said:


> Even if the distance between the Austrian A14 and the Swiss A13 is very short, it's weird that two prosperous European countries don't have any motorway link between them. Traffic through Lustenau must be very bad currently, since it is a real bottleneck.


It is. There was already an approved project about 15 years ago, but the responsible officials did not perform the administrative acts according to valid law, so the approval was overruled by the constitutional court. Now EU regulations are applicable and the overground connection planned earlier is not possible any more (Natura 2000), thus the delay.


----------



## rower2000

Road_UK said:


> Fair enough. It would serve the traffic between Innsbruck and St Gallen/Zürich well though...


Don't forget that on most days of the year, the relation Munich <-> Zurich is by far the most important. That is also better served by a northerly connection.


----------



## Nordic20T

Penn's Woods said:


> The Swiss Guards? These guys? http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110530185306/deadliestfiction/images/7/7c/SwissGuard.jpg


No, these. http://static.news.skppsc.ch/1405065210/zoll-quelle-tagblatt-ch.jpg


----------



## JackFrost

From this weekend on A4 has 3 lanes from Fischamend towards Vienna. Until the end of 2015 the whole motorway will be widened to 2x3 lanes between Fischamend and S1 interchange.










http://www.vienna.at/ausbau-der-a4-bis-april-2015-drei-spuren-richtung-wien/4151040


----------



## JackFrost

^^Yesterday I had the opportunity to test that piece of new road. I am not sure, but I think the inner lanes are nowhere near 3,75 meters. Has somebody taken a better look on it yet?


----------



## mcarling

I drove the A4 today between Fischamend and VIE airport. As of today, there are three nice newly paved lanes open in the direction toward Vienna. In the direction driving away from Vienna, there are two lanes open and (at least) repaving is required.


----------



## rower2000

Jack_Frost said:


> ^^Yesterday I had the opportunity to test that piece of new road. I am not sure, but I think the inner lanes are nowhere near 3,75 meters. Has somebody taken a better look on it yet?


IIRC, standard cross section in Austria is 3.75/3.50/3.50 m for three lanes per direction.


mcarling said:


> I drove the A4 today between Fischamend and VIE airport. As of today, there are three nice newly paved lanes open in the direction toward Vienna. In the direction driving away from Vienna, there are two lanes open and (at least) repaving is required.


Repaving and expansion to three lanes for the eastbound carriageway will happen April to November 2015. Repaving of the stretch Neusiedl -> border will start in 2015 and a three lane extension between Fischamend and Neusiedl in 2018. By 2020 Schwechat junction-Neusiedl should be six lanes and all of A4 should have had a total makeover.


----------



## bogdymol

Thanks for the information. I will drive on A4 direction Budapest on Friday, and will test the other side with 3 lanes on Sunday.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

italystf said:


> Even if the distance between the Austrian A14 and the Swiss A13 is very short, it's weird that two prosperous European countries don't have any motorway link between them. Traffic through Lustenau must be very bad currently, since it is a real bottleneck.


You're right about that.


----------



## MichiH

*A9 Tunnelkette Klaus*

The boring of the 2nd tube of "Tunnelkette Klaus" was started today. The construction of some bridges had already begun in September 2013. The new tube will be completed by late 2017. The existing tube will be renewed in 2018. Both tubes will be in service in late 2018, see press release.


----------



## Christian_AT

MichiH said:


> The boring of the 2nd tube of "Tunnelkette Klaus" was started today. The construction of some bridges had already begun in September 2013. The new tube will be completed by late 2017. The existing tube will be renewed in 2018. Both tubes will be in service in late 2018, see press release.


not correct (in details), there are 4 tunnels, short english description:

this 8kms are effective:
bridge - tunnel - bridge - tunnel - bridge - tunnel - bridge - tunnel - bridge

first the bridges have to be built to able to built the tunnels, the bridges are nearly finished and it is time for the tunnels

but at the moment are no new tunnels built, at the moment they start to wide the emergency tunnels of the 2 longer ones to a scale for traffic, next year in summer the start to dig the new tubes of the short 2 tunnels which have no emergency tubes

all just in time building, all is started to be finished when it is needed and the shorter complete new tunnels are finished faster than the widening of the long ones


----------



## MrAlpine

*A7 Linz*

On October 16th, about two months ago now, Austria's first ramp meter or _zuflussregelungsanlage_ in German has been put into operation. It is located on one of the entrance ramps of the Mühlkreis Autobahn (A7), more specifically just south of the city of Linz. Based on Asfinag's announcement - and as far as my German skills provide me to fully understand the text's details - the technical functioning of the system seems to be similar to the way they are being programmed in NL. That means the ramp meter will turn on when traffic flow exceeds a certain value, or when a (strongly) decreased speed is being measured. When the row of waiting vehicles gets too long and is starting to block other traffic, the ramp meter will automatically turn off again. The only difference seems to be absence of a red light camera, apparently Austrians do not need these things to comply with the law :lol: Is there any data regarding the improvement in traffic flow available yet? Or has that still to come?


----------



## KingNick

Austrians normally don't run red lights, yes.


----------



## Goy

*Is it possible to go from Salzburgo to Ljubljania in an autobahn?*


----------



## MrAlpine

A quick look on Google Maps answers your question; that is definitely possible. First you take the Tauern Autobahn (A10) to Villach, then you take the Karawanken Autobahn (A11) to the Austrian/Slovenian border and in the last place you take the Slovenian A2 towards Ljubljana.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Do you use periods in Quebec or commas? 1.5 km or 1,5 km?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> We do it because we can.


Well, someone who dares to ask "Why do Europeans do X" is a refreshing novelty around here.


----------



## Road_UK

In your case, yes


----------



## italystf

KingNick said:


> What a waste of money.


It's not a waste of money. A7 across Linz is usually very congested, probably one of the worst bottlenecks of Austria.


----------



## Surel

-Valentino- said:


> ^^^ Why do European countries use meters on road signs if it's more than 1 km? I see signs displaying "1500 m" rather than 1.5 km. If it's less than 1 km, then for sure use meters, such as 800 m.


I guess it is much less confusing than to see first 1.5 km and then 25 secs later 800 meters. It should be easier for the brain to perceive the information when it is provided in the same standard.

Since it would be quite strange to put on the boards 0.8 km, it makes sense to me to use meters for both.

Another thing is that it makes clear differentiation between the exits and destination distances.


----------



## italystf

Surel said:


> I guess it is much less confusing to see first 1.5 km and then 25 secs later 800 meters. It should be easier for the brain to perceive the information when it is provided in the same standard.
> 
> Since it would be quite strange to put on the boards 0.8 km, it makes sense to me to use meters for both.
> 
> Another thing is that it makes clear differentiation between the exits and destination distances.


I don't see any problem with 0.8 km. However, yes, whatever they choose meters or km, they should keep using the same unit.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^If memory serves, Quebec would say 0.8, or 0,8.

Where are our Canadians?


----------



## x-type

MichiH said:


> http://www.asfinag.at/documents/101...6-8ef1-4a95-a098-8e18f54c1247?t=1423734231518
> 
> grey = Existing Autobahn
> orange = Tunnel safety program 2015
> purple = Major project u/c in 2015
> red = Major project, start of construction in 2015
> blue = General safety improvements
> gold = Major project, start of construction after 2015
> 
> http://www.asfinag.at/unterwegs/bauen


what are they planning to do with S37? is it going to become a motorwaylike S-strasse (like S35 for instance), or they will only reconstruct 1+1 and 2+1 parts?


----------



## MichiH

*S37 upgrade*



x-type said:


> what are they planning to do with S37? is it going to become a motorlike S-strasse (like S35 for instance), or they will only reconstruct 1+1 and 2+1 parts?


http://www.asfinag.at/unterwegs/bau...-und-sanierungen-st-veit-nord-klagenfurt-nord

Safety upgrade and renovation with Median and wider lanes (2x2). Road width will be increased from 16 to 20.6m. 18km, 96 million €. AADT: 25,000 vehicles/day.


----------



## italystf

MichiH said:


> http://www.asfinag.at/unterwegs/bau...-und-sanierungen-st-veit-nord-klagenfurt-nord
> 
> Safety upgrade and renovation with Median and wider lanes (2x2). Road width will be increased from 16 to 20.6m. 18km, 96 million €. AADT: 25,000 vehicles/day.


Is 20.6m enough to get autobahn status, like S6, S36 and S35? It sounds pretty narrow, unless they build a single concrete\steel crashbarrier in the middle instead of a proper median.
4 standard lanes (3.75m) take already 15m, so only 5,6m are left to the hard shoulders and the median.


----------



## MichiH

^^ It's already S37..... And yes, I think 20.6m is enough for expressway status.


----------



## x-type

italystf said:


> Is 20.6m enough to get autobahn status, like S6, S36 and S35? It sounds pretty narrow, unless they build a single concrete\steel crashbarrier in the middle instead of a proper median.
> 4 standard lanes (3.75m) take already 15m, so only 5,6m are left to the hard shoulders and the median.


it is enough for the case of narrowed lanes (3,5m) and 2,5m wide hard shoulder. in that case for the median remains 1,6m


----------



## italystf

MichiH said:


> ^^ It's already S37..... And yes, I think 20.6m is enough for expressway status.


The S-number in Austria doesn't mean expressway status. It can be a full motorway (with motorway signs and 130 speed limit, like S6, S35, S36 or S1), a 4-lanes undivided road (S37 or S31), and even a 2-lanes road (parts of S16).


----------



## sotonsi

-Valentino- said:


> ^^^ Why do European countries use meters on road signs if it's more than 1 km? I see signs displaying "1500 m" rather than 1.5 km. If it's less than 1 km, then for sure use meters, such as 800 m.


Because they hate the metric system's biggest benefit - the ability to easily remove trailing zeros? :lol:

OK, sensible hat on - when someone proposed metricising (or rather continentalised) UK signage on SABRE, this was something that was pointed out as being silly*, and why not continue using fractions (as is what is currently used) or use decimal points.

The arguments this guy made were as follows:
1) decimal points/commas are hard to see. 0.8km apparently might be confused for 08km and 1.6km might be confused with 16km
2) smaller numbers to show fractions / numbers right of the decimal point (as France uses for exit numbers) makes them harder to read (yet people's problem with the fractions was made in the discussion that followed was not that they can't read the signs, but that they weren't taught them at school and don't know what ½ is!)

I presume that readability is the key reason why they use '1500m' rather than '1,5km'. Whether it's entirely valid is a different question.

*especially as one of the key complaints this guy had against UK signs was clutter, which he removed (even when removing what he saw as clutter completely changed the meaning of the sign, but that's a different rant...) and then filled our signs with these trailing zeros, symbols showing which 'type' of motorway junction it was and various other clutter that was OK as it was what they use on the continent.


----------



## Verso

Using kilometres gives impression that the destination is far away, so using metres is better for exits.


----------



## -Valentino-

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Do you use periods in Quebec or commas? 1.5 km or 1,5 km?


Quebec uses 1,5 km while English Canada uses 1.5 like America.


----------



## -Valentino-

Verso said:


> Using kilometres gives impression that the destination is far away, so using metres is better for exits.


Interesting point...


----------



## MichiH

Verso said:


> Using kilometres gives impression that the destination is far away, so using metres is better for exits.


Hmmm....

1km: far away
100m: close to

:dunno:


----------



## [atomic]

maybe so people won't be confused
2km *1.5*km *1000*m 500m 100m vs.
2000m 1500m 1000m 500m 100m
I guess marking a distance in m instead of km gives it a greater sense of accuracy, whereas a distance in km is often not very accurate.


----------



## Verso

MichiH said:


> Hmmm....
> 
> 1km: far away
> 100m: close to
> 
> :dunno:


Well, 0.1 km doesn't sound close to me.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It was under renovation. Apparently they had to replace the bridge, even though this segment was only opened in 1975, so it is not that old.

Edit: it appears the Mur River Bridge (which also spans the railroad) is older than S35, Asfinag says it was built in 1953. It will be replaced entirely.


----------



## Surel

Good that no train hit it. In 2008 the same happened in Studenka, CZ in 2008, 8 people died. There is a small memorial devoted to them now. No one was sentenced yet.


----------



## Luki_SL

^^If the train hit the viaduct, there might have been a bigger tragedy.


----------



## italystf

40 years ago: a viaduct of A10 collapsed during construction, killing 10 workers


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Reichsbrücke in Vienna collapsed in 1976.


----------



## keber

In 1990 a bridge on A12 near Kufstein was damaged due to floods so severely that A12 was closed for two years.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildbichler_Brücke
Video:
http://www.tagesschau.de/multimedia/video/video731956.html


----------



## MichiH

keber said:


> A bridge over Graz-Wien railway on S35 collapsed yesterday. Bridge was being reconstructed, there are no casualities but mainline railways will be closed for several weeks. Only few minutes before collapse a passenger train drove under that bridge. S35 is closed too.


The bridge of the 2nd carriageway is still closed. It might open by end of the week, see press release.


----------



## patakcze

I'll be driving from Reintal (CZ/A border) to Innsbruck and as I've driven that route on the Autobahn many times I'm looking for some non-motorway alternatives. I'll probably take the B178 between Salzburg and Wörgl. 
What about the B3 or B33 between Krems and Melk? I'm expecting some nice views on the Donau.
https://goo.gl/maps/qrvpX Is there anything else worth driving?


----------



## bogdymol

^^ I drove from Pöchlarn to Krems on B3. It was on a sunny day, road was good, traffic was light... very nice to drive.


----------



## Road_UK

patakcze said:


> I'll be driving from Reintal (CZ/A border) to Innsbruck and as I've driven that route on the Autobahn many times I'm looking for some non-motorway alternatives. I'll probably take the B178 between Salzburg and Wörgl.
> What about the B3 or B33 between Krems and Melk? I'm expecting some nice views on the Donau.
> https://goo.gl/maps/qrvpX Is there anything else worth driving?


 Just keep in mind that there are some roadworks in the Kleines Deutsche Eck around Bad Reichenhall, often leading to delays.


----------



## patakcze

bogdymol said:


> ^^ I drove from Pöchlarn to Krems on B3. It was on a sunny day, road was good, traffic was light... very nice to drive.


Are there any bigger town or anything that could cause problems?



Road_UK said:


> Just keep in mind that there are some roadworks in the Kleines Deutsche Eck around Bad Reichenhall, often leading to delays.


Do you know where exactly?


----------



## RoadEngineer

I should drive from Belgrade to Montafon next month and I would like to cut the route between Spittal and Innsbruck using direction Spittal - Lienz - Bruneck - Brenner - Innsbruck especially because of a new speed limit on Tauern and Inntal Autobahn. I've never driven section from Spittal to Brenner Autobahn before and I would like to know how much time do I need (less or more) comparing with Salzburg direction bearing in mind new speed limit on A10 and A12. Spittal - Brenner Autobahn section is a pretty long (over 150 km) so I also interested to know is it difficult for driving, is there a lot of villages, cars, trucks, speed limits, radar controls... As I remember the Brenner Autobahn has the speed limit mostly 110 km/h. I have one more option which is longest but cheapest, Belgrade - Budapest - Wien - Salzburg - Munchen - Lindau - Bludenz - Montafon. Using this route I avoid very expensive Croatian and Slovenian tolls as well as a couple of tunnels in Austria and drive a pretty long section from Munchen to Lindau without speed limit.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

I think that you should go via Budapest and Vienna.


----------



## Luki_SL

keber said:


> A bridge over Graz-Wien railway on S35 collapsed yesterday. Bridge was being reconstructed, there are no casualities but mainline railways will be closed for several weeks. Only few minutes before collapse a passenger train drove under that bridge. S35 is closed too.


Are there any new informations about the reasons of the collapse?


----------



## MichiH

Luki_SL said:


> Are there any new informations about the reasons of the collapse?


The 2nd bridge is in service since today. Experts still analyze the cause.

http://www.asfinag.at/newsroom/pres...-ist-ab-mittwoch-fruh-wieder-fur-verkehr-frei



> Die Untersuchungen der Sachverständigen hinsichtlich der Unglücksursache laufen indes weiter auf Hochtouren, seriöse Ergebnisse werden aber erst nach vollständiger Entfernung des Brückenteils vorliegen


----------



## keber

Seeing at the pictures I believe there was some serious design flaw with temporary construction supports for the new deck plate. To me they looked much too weak.


----------



## MichiH

*A11 Karawanken tunnel*

The construction of the 2nd carriageway for A11 Karawanken tunnel b/n Austria and Slovenia will start in fall 2015. First, the area in front of the tunnel will be built, including a 350m viaduct. The construction of the 2nd tube will start in late 2017. Afterwards, the renovation of the existing tube will start in 2021. Austra invests about 165 million €. See press release.


----------



## [atomic]

^^ I don't like that they will still use 1 Tunnel for both directions


----------



## bogdymol

How do you want the traffic to pass through that area if traffic doesn't go through one tunnel if the second one is not ready yet?


----------



## MichiH

^^ "Will still use" --> after completion of the 2nd tube and renovation of the 1st tube! There will be 2 completed tubes but only one tube will be used 1+1.


----------



## mcarling

^^
I understand that only one tunnel will be used during construction of the second tunnel (obviously) and that only the second tunnel will be used during renovation of the first tunnel. However, once the renovation of the first tunnel has been completed, then both tunnels should be open. No?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, that is the standard approach with tunnel twinning in Austria.


----------



## [atomic]

The old Tube will be used as emergency access (and maybe during extreme peak times on weekends in the summer)


----------



## MichiH

mcarling said:


> I understand that only one tunnel will be used during construction of the second tunnel (obviously) and that only the second tunnel will be used during renovation of the first tunnel. However, once the renovation of the first tunnel has been completed, then both tunnels should be open. No?


You're right but it's planned to operate one tube only. The 2nd tube will be used as emergency tube. The AADT is under 10,000 vehicles/day, maximum 30,000.


----------



## mcarling

It seems the idea is to maximize head-on collisions. It would be much smarter to operate both tubes with only one lane each.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Wasn't it planned to build a permanent second tube instead of just an emergency one that could be used during peak times? 

At first they wanted to build an emergency tube, but building a full standard tube at once was much cheaper than to upgrade the emergency tube to a traffic tube at a later time.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> Wasn't it planned to build a permanent second tube instead of just an emergency one that could be used during peak times?


Yes, and that's how it will be. I don't know why both won't be used at all times, with 2 lanes each way.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> At first they wanted to build an emergency tube, but building a full standard tube at once was much cheaper than to upgrade the emergency tube to a traffic tube at a later time.


Exactly. Costs of an emergency tube: 93 million €, costs of a full 2nd tube: 236 million €, cost of a widening the emergency tube to a full 2nd tube: 413 million €. Source (December 2011).


----------



## MichiH

mcarling said:


> It seems the idea is to maximize head-on collisions. It would be much smarter to operate both tubes with only one lane each.


You presume Austrians are smart? C'mon! They speak German and they have more in common with their "big brother"..........


----------



## MichiH

*A5 Schrick - Poysbrunn*



Luki_SL said:


> A5 Schrick - Poysbrunn - construction work will be started in the spring:


Groundbreaking will be on 11th April 2015. Source.


----------



## Moravian

Semmeringer Schnellstrasse S6: junction Spittal am Semmering from Stuhleck


----------



## rower2000

[atomic] said:


> ^^ I don't like that they will still use 1 Tunnel for both directions





[atomic] said:


> The old Tube will be used as emergency access (and maybe during extreme peak times on weekends in the summer)





MichiH said:


> You're right but it's planned to operate one tube only. The 2nd tube will be used as emergency tube. The AADT is under 10,000 vehicles/day, maximum 30,000.





ChrisZwolle said:


> Wasn't it planned to build a permanent second tube instead of just an emergency one that could be used during peak times?
> 
> At first they wanted to build an emergency tube, but building a full standard tube at once was much cheaper than to upgrade the emergency tube to a traffic tube at a later time.





Verso said:


> Yes, and that's how it will be. I don't know why both won't be used at all times, with 2 lanes each way.


All of your information is IMHO outdated. Here is the Asfinag press release in German. It says


> Im Anschluss ab dem Jahr 2021 wird die bestehende Tunnelröhre saniert und damit der Tunnel voll ausgebaut.


meaning to me that they will use both tubes at all times.

Also the Kronen-Zeitung writes


> Die Verkehrsfreigabe des zweiröhrigen Karawankentunnels ist für das Jahr 2022 vorgesehen.


meaning that both tubes will be used after 2022.


----------



## MichiH

rower2000 said:


> All of your information is IMHO outdated. Here is the Asfinag press release in German. It says
> meaning to me that they will use both tubes at all times.
> Also the Kronen-Zeitung writes
> meaning that both tubes will be used after 2022.


Hallelujah Sigi! Thanks for confirming my assumption by quoting my source  

Are you sure we don't misunderstand it? Journalism mistake?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

When Asfinag talks about 'vollausbau', that has always meant a full standard traffic tube. Similar to the other Alpine tunnels that have been twinned in Austria. For example the emergency tube at the Arlbergtunnel is not called a 'vollausbau'


----------



## Verso

Then again, we already knew it wouldn't be just an emergency tube, but we still don't know whether the second traffic tube will be open 24/7 or just in case of dense traffic. "Voll ausgebaut" doesn't mean it will be open 24/7, and "Verkehrsfreigabe" doesn't mean that either, it just means they can start using it in case of dense traffic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I doubt if they would install tens of millions of euros worth of safety equipment and then don't use it most of the year. Because that electronic stuff wears / dates quickly even if it isn't used. In addition, there is the safety factor. Two tubes with separated traffic are clearly safer, even if traffic volumes aren't high enough to warrant four lanes most of the year.


----------



## Verso

I know, but that's what Austrians said when they decided to build two traffic tubes (I can't post any link to prove it though). Perhaps they've changed their minds in the meantime, but I know that's what they said at first.


----------



## rower2000

MichiH said:


> Hallelujah Sigi! Thanks for confirming my assumption by quoting my source
> 
> Are you sure we don't misunderstand it? Journalism mistake?


How did I miss your link? Pft, stupid me, it wasn't even the middle of the night... However, I still think "Vollausbau" stands for full operation of both tubes. When the concept for old tube = emergency tube was still valid for the Perjen tunnel, all Asfinag releases talked about "adapting the old tube as an emergency tunnel" as opposed to "renovating the old tube". When the plan was dropped, they changed all wording to "vollausgebaut".


----------



## Verso

What's the reason for turning the old tube into an emergency tube anyway (or using it only in case of dense traffic)?


----------



## [atomic]

^^ perhaps so they don't have to build a dedicated emergency tunnel and opening that second tunnel for a few weekends every year is ok. also they will have to observe fewer cameras (don't know if that makes any difference)
I just hope the new one will be wider than the existing tunnel (especially the distance between the lanes) which is quite a narrow and dark hole, not sure how that can be changed.

Edit:
I found another source
http://kaernten.orf.at/news/stories/2532473/ this is from 2012 but it might explain why there is no real clarity 



> Der Verkehr soll dann allerdings in beiden Richtungen durch die neue Röhre fließen. Erst wenn sich die Verkehrsfrequenz von derzeit 8.500 Fahrzeugen pro Tag auf 20.000 erhöht, ist es geplant, den Verkehr in beiden Röhren fließen zu lassen. Die Spitzen im Sommer liegen allerdings schon jetzt bei 30.000 Fahrzeugen pro Tag, sagte Asfinag-Vorstand Schedl.


rough translate


> Traffic is supposed to go through the new Bore. Only when Traffic increases from 8.500 vehicles per day to 20.000 will the second one be opened. Peaks during the summer are already exceeding 30.000 Fahrzeugen per Day, according to Asfinag-chairman Schedl.


----------



## x-type

where is this?


----------



## KingNick

Knoten Villach, maybe?


----------



## x-type

KingNick said:


> Knoten Villach, maybe?


Italy and Slovenia left, Germany straight ahead? no.


----------



## RoadEngineer

Interchange Voesendorf near Wien, end of S1 and beginning of A21 towards Salzburg and A2 towards Graz, just after Voesendorfer Tunnel.


----------



## rudiwien

^^

Yes, seems to be here exactly: https://goo.gl/maps/jADxC


----------



## RoadEngineer

Exactly.


----------



## John Maynard

..."Guess the highway" > http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=572319&page=400? No, "Guess in which highway that crash occurred" :sarcasm:


----------



## x-type

John Maynard said:


> ..."Guess the highway" > http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=572319&page=400? No, "Guess in which highway that crash occurred" :sarcasm:


are we having a day? i was so self-conscious so i didn't ask it in Chinese motorways thread.


----------



## MichiH

*A9 Bosrucktunnel*

*A9:* Bosrucktunnel 7.3km (2007 to October 2015) [2nd c/w] – project – map

According to the project page, both tubes should get into service on 17th October 2015.



> Geplante Gesamtverkehrsfreigabe (beide Tunnelröhren): 17. Oktober 2015


----------



## x-type

MichiH said:


> *A9:* Bosrucktunnel 7.3km (2007 to October 2015) [2nd c/w] – project – map
> 
> According to the project page, both tubes should get into service on 17th October 2015.


7,3 km? how come when the existing tube is 5,5 km long?

(or is it the length of the whole section that is giong to be rebuilt/doubled from toll station to bnorthern tunnel portal?)


----------



## MichiH

x-type said:


> 7,3 km? how come when the existing tube is 5,5 km long?
> 
> (or is it the length of the whole section that is giong to be rebuilt/doubled from toll station to bnorthern tunnel portal?)


Source is the project page. I think it's the length of the carriageway, that means the entire length which was doubled.


----------



## rudiwien

MichiH said:


> Source is the project page. I think it's the length of the carriageway, that means the entire length which was doubled.



The project page specifies that the tunnel itself is 5.5 km.

The additional construction includes a bridge on the northern portal, still missing in the Google maps satellite images at https://www.google.at/maps/@47.63637,14.3309578,1726m/data=!3m1!1e3, plus quite a long section on the southern part, the carriageway on the (north) western side, see the under-construction-state in Google maps at https://www.google.at/maps/@47.5829619,14.3387496,1766m/data=!3m1!1e3


----------



## MichiH

^^ Yep, the same happens at Karawanks tunnel. In front of the tunnel, a 350m viaduct is built plus 100m pavement.


----------



## SRC_100

Few pictures of A5 construction towards CZ border. The construction is visible from current main road no. B7 just few km after end of A5 in use. Remaining part of the construction is not visible from the road No. B7.
Pictures were taken on Friday, 18.09 afternoon. Enjoy.
Let`s start:
































































to be continued...


----------



## SRC_100

All the pictures (above and below) were taken going from south to north and are displayed in sequence.























































The End.


----------



## italystf

^^
Will it be a new motorway or the duplication of the existing road?


----------



## SRC_100

^^
New motorway, but probably in some places the same path as current road no. B7.

Take a look:


----------



## rudiwien

^^ 
The route will be parallel to the B7 (current road) in the most southern part (in the picture from SRC_100 labelled "Baulos 1"); in that section, they first build a new road that will then become the new B7, and reuse the current B7 as one carriageway. The current B7 is very wide, while the new B7 will be more narrow, sufficient for the then much lower traffic.
This is what the already ongoing work is mostly about.

In the other sections until Poysbrunn, the motorway is neither using nor close to the existing B7.

North of Poysbrunn till the border, they will at first only build the Drasenhofen bypass, traffic will thus still be on the B7. The start date for the bypass is not yet settled, but they want to open it by ~2018 as well.


----------



## MichiH

*S36 extension*

*S36:* Scheifling – Sankt Georgen 7.2km (May 2013 to Summer 2018) – project – map

The project is split into sections. The first section "Unterflurtrasse Sankt Georgen" will be opened on 1st December 2015 (source).

The construcion of the second section "Unterflurtrasse Unzmarkt" was planned to be started in spring 2016 and to be opened in 2019 (the project page indicated "summer 2018" in late 2013 though) but there's a problem with expropriation now and works cannot be started in spring 2016 (source).

The section in between will be "adapted" (I guess that means, it will be rededicated to S36 only!?). The section lengths are not specified - only the lengths of the "Unterflurtrassen" = tunnels. In total, S36 will be extended by 7.5km. The total costs are about 180 million €.

*S36:* west of Sankt Georgen – east of Sankt Georgen ~1.5km (April 2013 to 1st December 2015) – project – map
*S36:* rededication north of Unzmarkt – west of Sankt Georgen ~3.5km (2019) – project – map
*S36:* north of Unzmarkt – south of Unzmarkt ~2.5km (2016 to 2019) – project – map

The remaining section between Sankt Georgen and Judenburg is planned to be built after 2020.

*S36:* east of Sankt Georgen – Judenburg-West 12.5km (> 2020 to ?) – project – map


----------



## MarkRogers

I hope to comeback AU soon.


----------



## rudiwien

MichiH said:


> *S36:* Scheifling – Sankt Georgen 7.2km (May 2013 to Summer 2018) – project – map
> 
> [..]
> The section in between will be "adapted" (I guess that means, it will be rededicated to S36 only!?).



Most of the section between the two tunnels is already dual carriageway with two lanes each, see e.g. http://binged.it/1KYgcH4; I think the "adaption" might include upgrading those by an emergency lane, potentially also the lanes are currently too narrow.
Other than that, yes, I think once the two tunnels are done, it is likely to become a restricted access road for these 7 km.


----------



## MichiH

*A9 Bosrucktunnel*



MichiH said:


> *A9:* Bosrucktunnel 7.3km (2007 to October 2015) [2nd c/w] – project – map
> 
> According to the project page, both tubes should get into service on 17th October 2015.


The project page is not updated but there's an ASFINAG press release about a safety exercise (on 10th October) which reports that both tubes will be in service from 19th October 2015.



> Ab dem 19. Oktober ohne Gegenverkehr – dann bringt ein zweiröhrig ausgebauter Tunnel mehr Verkehrssicherheit.


----------



## rudiwien

I checked whether I could find other news entries regarding this, only thing that is recent is a press release from one of the political parties, they mention that 17th of October 10:00 is the official opening with the minister attending, see http://www.ots.at/presseaussendung/...oe-termine-von-12-oktober-bis-18-oktober-2015

So maybe they have just the ceremony on 17th, and indeed cars can only go from 19th on. We'll see very soon


----------



## rower2000

rudiwien said:


> Most of the section between the two tunnels is already dual carriageway with two lanes each, see e.g. http://binged.it/1KYgcH4; I think the "adaption" might include upgrading those by an emergency lane, potentially also the lanes are currently too narrow.
> Other than that, yes, I think once the two tunnels are done, it is likely to become a restricted access road for these 7 km.


AFAIR the adaption will consist of installing emergency bays (no emergency lanes), installing the emergency call system and renewing the guiderails/concrete dividers. And of course, installing the truck toll collection units .


----------



## celevac

Regarding the _Bosrucktunnel_ on Austrian A9 motorway:

Kleine Zeitung newspaper of October 11, 2015 mentioned the following information in their article on pages 18-19:

opening ceremony: Saturday, Oct. 17
open for traffic: Monday, Oct. 19
Section Control will be removed on Friday, Oct. 23

Total cost of the project was 280 million euros, 200 million of that amount for the new tunnel


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Is there a reason why the Bosruck Tunnel twinning was relatively expensive compared to Tunnel chain Klaus and Gleinalm Tunnel?

* Bosruck: 5.5 km € 280 million
* Klaus: 8.0 km € 180 million (not all of the length is tunnel)
* Gleinalm: 8.3 km € 240 million


----------



## Christian_AT

ChrisZwolle said:


> Is there a reason why the Bosruck Tunnel twinning was relatively expensive compared to Tunnel chain Klaus and Gleinalm Tunnel?
> 
> * Bosruck: 5.5 km € 280 million
> * Klaus: 8.0 km € 180 million (not all of the length is tunnel)
> * Gleinalm: 8.3 km € 240 million


-> Klaus only build the 2nd one, no costs for number one because it is only 10 years old

-> Bosruck, you forget on both sides are bridges direkt following which must be constructed, also difficult geology in the Bosruck-Massive this was the major reason for twining because the old one have to be renovated urgently

-> Bosruck is similar to Katschberg and Tauern from Tunnel length, renovating there number one needs one year, renovating the bosruck needed two years (geological problems)


----------



## MichiH

*S36 extension*



MichiH said:


> *S36:* Scheifling – Sankt Georgen 7.2km (May 2013 to Summer 2018) – project – map
> 
> The construcion of the second section "Unterflurtrasse Unzmarkt" was planned to be started in spring 2016 and to be opened in 2019 (the project page indicated "summer 2018" in late 2013 though) but there's a problem with expropriation now and works cannot be started in spring 2016 (source).
> 
> *S36:* north of Unzmarkt – south of Unzmarkt ~2.5km (2016 to 2019) – project – map


A court decision says that the expropriation of 3 properties is not legal because of a formal error. ASFINAG confirms that there's a delay of minimum 12 months - the section will be opened in 2020 at the earliest. See news article.


----------



## Zawwin

*Project cost*

How much did the project cost?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*S10 Unterweitersdorf - Freistadt*

Google has updated its imagery of the area where S10 runs through. It's interesting to see how much of S10 runs in tunnels. These are some highlights which run from south to north.

1. Tunnel Götschka (4425 m) the southern portal at Unterweitersdorf.









2. Tunnel Götschka, northern portal









3. Tunnel Neumarkt (1975 m), southern portal









4. Northern portal. The tunnel is extended to reduce impact.









5. The Kefermarkt interchange









6. A mini stack interchange at Freistadt-Süd









7. Freistadt-Nord


----------



## x-type

is one tube of Götschka tunnel going to have 3 lanes (or 2 + hard shoulder)?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, there will be three lanes, because the tunnel is located in an incline. The southern portal is at approximately 380 m and the northern portal at 540 m. So there will be 3 lanes northbound due to slow trucks.


----------



## MichiH

*S10:* Freistadt-South – Unterweitersbach 13.6km (Spring 2012 to Late December 2015) – project – map

The section should be opened on 20th December 2015, see news article.


----------



## rudiwien

Asfinag (and media) report that the bypass for Drasenhofen, the first stage for extending the A5 north of Poysbrunn to the Czech border, has passed the environmental impact assessment ("Umweltverträglichkeitsprüfung"):

http://www.asfinag.at/newsroom/pres...enhofen-umweltvertraglichkeits-prufung-fertig
http://www.noen.at/nachrichten/loka...-Autobahnbau;art2689,689518#galerie/125516/15
(both in German language only)

This will be a half-profile for about 5km out of the total 9km of this segment, including a grade-separated interchange "Drasenhofen West", with a potential future upgrade to full profile.
Expected start for works is in 2017, and the date for completion is 2018 - one year after the Schrick-Poysbrunn segment of A5 (which will be full profile)
Project page: http://www.asfinag.at/unterwegs/bau...chrick-poysbrunn-staatsgrenze-bei-drasenhofen


----------



## rudiwien

MichiH said:


> *S10:* Freistadt-South – Unterweitersbach 13.6km (Spring 2012 to Late December 2015) – project – map
> 
> The section should be opened on 20th December 2015, see news article.



Also Asfinag states now "end of december" ("Die Gesamtverkehrsfreigabe der S 10 wird Ende Dezember 2015 erfolgen"), at the project page.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Czech R52 extension is not even appearing on the list of future projects with ŘSD, so constructing the A5 extension partially with one carriageway seems like a sound decision. Czech motorway building processes are completely messed-up, nearly all plans are significantly delayed or postponed indefinitely. They won't finish their planned network within 50 years at this pace.

Austria and the Czech Republic did sign a treaty in early 2009 to construct this international motorway link, but not much progress seems to have been made over the 7 years since that event.


----------



## sotonsi

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Czech R52 extension is not even appearing on the list of future projects with ŘSD


Given that the R52 will only exist for a further 36 days...

Though I'm sure you tried looking for D52 projects as well.


----------



## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Czech R52 extension is not even appearing on the list of future projects with ŘSD, so constructing the A5 extension partially with one carriageway seems like a sound decision. Czech motorway building processes are completely messed-up, nearly all plans are significantly delayed or postponed indefinitely. They won't finish their planned network within 50 years at this pace.
> 
> Austria and the Czech Republic did sign a treaty in early 2009 to construct this international motorway link, but not much progress seems to have been made over the 7 years since that event.


I'm hoping that the major improvements now under construction on the AT side will help spur some construction on the CZ side. I agree that the single carriageway bypass of Drasenhofen was a sound decision.


----------



## rudiwien

Tomorrow, the new tunnel under St. Georgen ob Judenburg on the S36 motorway will be opened for the public (the official ceremony & party was already on the weekend). A few images from Google, showing the almost finalised work:

Western portal:









Eastern portal:









Using the ~1.5 km tunnel & road between the motorway entrance & exits at each side of the town will require paying the motorway toll, i.e. having a valid Austrian "Vignette".


----------



## winnipeg

Why did they build this instead of simply getting around of the center of the city? It would have been so much simpler and cheaper?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Comparing satellite imagery, it appears that this way they did not have to relocate any inhabitants or businesses. A southern alignment would be too steep and require demolition of a few houses, and a northern alignment is not possible due to the river.

edit: is this the first segment of S36 with exit numbering? German Wikipedia doesn't show exit numbers for S36.


----------



## winnipeg

Yes, I see! :yes: I haven't saw that this was an extension of the S36, it is justified! :yes:


----------



## Christian_AT

winnipeg said:


> Why did they build this instead of simply getting around of the center of the city? It would have been so much simpler and cheaper?


https://www.google.at/maps/@47.2117762,14.528649,13.07z/data=!5m1!1e4

please found some easy terrain  for a bypass


----------



## winnipeg

Christian_AT said:


> https://www.google.at/maps/@47.2117762,14.528649,13.07z/data=!5m1!1e4
> 
> please found some easy terrain  for a bypass


In France I'm used to see these kind of bypass built :



Because this is cheap (even if you need to remove some houses, it still cost less than the millions necesary for a such tunnel), and the city is only 900 inhabitants in a rural area, so such bypass is not a real problem... at least in France. But we certainly doesn't have the same amount of government finances in France than in Austria... :yes:

But my coment was valid because I tought that it was a simple regional road, not the continuity of S36 or any highway, in this case a tunnel seems more indicated, yes...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ It may look like flat terrain on a satellite image, but in reality that alignment has some 40-50 meters of height difference there.


----------



## MichiH

*S10 Mühlviertler Schnellstraße*



rudiwien said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> *S10:* Freistadt-South – Unterweitersbach 13.6km (Spring 2012 to Late December 2015) – project – map
> 
> The section should be opened on 20th December 2015, see news article.
> 
> 
> 
> Also Asfinag states now "end of december" ("Die Gesamtverkehrsfreigabe der S 10 wird Ende Dezember 2015 erfolgen"), at the project page.
Click to expand...

The symbolic opening ceremony will be next Saturday, December 12th. Source.

Outlook of the extension to the Czech border:

*S10:* CZ/AT border (Dolni Dvoriste) – Rainbach-North ~7km (? to ?) – project – map (depends on traffic volume and Czech planning progress)
*S10:* Rainbach-North – Freistadt-North 8.5km (2021 to 2024) – project – map (EIS procedure is ongoing or should begin in 2016 or...)
*S10:* Freistadt-North – Freistadt-South 5.9km (Summer 2011 to 16th November 2014) – project – map


----------



## Christian_AT

MichiH said:


> The symbolic opening ceremony will be next Saturday, December 12th. Source.
> 
> Outlook of the extension to the Czech border:
> 
> *S10:* CZ/AT border *(Wullowitz)*_ [(Dolni Dvoriste)_] – Rainbach-North ~7km (? to ?) – project – map (depends on traffic volume and Czech planning progress)
> *S10:* Rainbach-North – Freistadt-North 8.5km (2021 to 2024) – project – map (EIS procedure is ongoing or should begin in 2016 or...)
> *S10:* Freistadt-North – Freistadt-South 5.9km (Summer 2011 to 16th November 2014) – project – map


nice summary, but austrian motorways ends in austrian towns 

for information, freistadt north - rainbach north fix the last bottlenecks in towns and hard incline streak, the last section to the border is a good main road straight, the only problem is sometimes overtake trucks but for this short section we are waiting for the czechs and their progress, a motorway wont be needed until on the other side of the border is also one


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## ChrisZwolle

Christian_AT said:


> a motorway wont be needed until on the other side of the border is also one


There will never be a motorway if the Czechs have the same attitude. :lol:


----------



## MichiH

Christian_AT said:


> nice summary, but austrian motorways ends in austrian towns


I know that it's weird but the problem for my list is that I'd like to have the same end location name for two neighboring sections.
Dolni Dvoriste has about 1,200 inhabitants, Wullowitz just 64 according to _wikipedia_.

The entire route in one list:

*D3:* Veseli nad Luznici – Bosilec 5.1km (April 2015 to March 2018) – project – map
*D3:* Bosilec – Sevetin 8.1km (September 2015 to September 2018) – project – map

_*D3:* Sevetin – Borek 10.7km (2016? to December 2018) – project – map_

*D3:* Borek – Usilne ~2.5km (April 2015 to March 2018) – project – map

_*D3:* Usilne – Hodejovice ~7.5km (November 2016 to December 2020) – project – map
*D3:* Hodejovice – Trebonin 12.5km (November 2016 to December 2020) – project – map
*R3:* Trebonin – Kaplice nadrazi 8.5km (November 2017 to October 2020) – project – map
*R3:* Kaplice nadrazi – Nazidla 12.0km (October 2017 to September 2020) – project – map
*R3:* Nazidla – CZ/AT border (Dolni Dvoriste) 3.5km (October 2017 to October 2020) – project – map
*S10:* CZ/AT border (Dolni Dvoriste) – Rainbach-North ~7km (? to ?) – project – map
*S10:* Rainbach-North – Freistadt-North 8.5km (2021 to 2024) – project – map_

*S10:* Freistadt-North – Freistadt-South 5.9km (Summer 2011 to 16th November 2014) – project – map
*S10:* Freistadt-South – Unterweitersdorf 13.6km (Spring 2012 to 20th December 2015) – project – map

btw: I guess the 2020 completion announcements of the Czech project pages are unlikely.


----------



## SRC_100

MichiH said:


> *S10:* Freistadt-South – *Unterweitersbach *13.6km (Spring 2012 to 20th December 2015) – project – map


Why is not *Unterweitersdorf ?*


----------



## MichiH

^^ Thanks. Maybe it was kind of a test........  

On the other hand, a village (dorf) and a little river (bach) is almost the same...


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## rudiwien

Asfinag reports that the environmental impact assessment ("Umweltverträglichkeitsprüfung") was succesfully passed for the extension of the express way "S3 Weinviertler Schnellstraße" from Hollabrunn to Guntersdorf: Press Release Project Page

Nature conservation & construction permits are still missing, but ASFINAG is planning to start construction of this 11km section in the 2nd half of 2016.

Location of the planned section: OSM Google Maps









The S3 extension will be a 2+1 profile, as it is already on the existing ~21 kilometres.

It is the last planned extension for the S3. From the planned terminus in Guntersdorf the existing B303 will take the traffic till the Czech Border near Kleinhaugsdorf (on the Czech side, the road continues until Zjnomo as the next major town). This existing part of the B303 is in relatively good shape, not passing through villages, and having only three roundabouts; thus unless there is a sudden major increase in traffic, I'd say further ugprades are unlikely in the next decade.


----------



## mcarling

rudiwien said:


> It is the last planned extension for the S3.


Pity. If the road were better on the CZ side, it would be the best route between Prague and Vienna.


----------



## cinxxx

I'm planning to drive last weekend of December coming from Ptuj to Germany. I'm guessing there are border controls between SLO and A because of migrants.
Which crossing would you recommend to lose the least time?


----------



## rudiwien

cinxxx said:


> I'm planning to drive last weekend of December coming from Ptuj to Germany. I'm guessing there are border controls between SLO and A because of migrants.
> Which crossing would you recommend to lose the least time?



There are border controls between SLO and A, but also between A and D, so you need to chose both border crossings correctly...

It is very difficult to predict how it will be in >3 weeks, as the situation changes almost every day.
For e.g. today, the ÖAMTC (the Austrian motor club, equivalent of e.g. ADAC or RAA) does report no significant delays (http://www.oeamtc.at/portal/situation-an-den-grenzen+2500+1635286, in German only)

I thus suggest that you inform yourself again closer to the actual travel date.
A few good sources, though only in German:
- the ÖAMTC at http://www.oeamtc.at/portal/verkehrsservice
- the Ö3 radio station at http://oe3verkehr.orf.at/ (if you understand German, you can also listen to the live stream, they have traffic news always after the half hour, and right after the news at the full hour and normally also report border waiting times; http://oe3.orf.at/live/, access might be IP geo-controlled though..)

A relatively good summary of the general situation (written ~2 weeks ago) is also at http://www.oeamtc.at/portal/europa-verkehrsbehinderungen-durch-grenzkontrollen+2500+1635710 (in German only)


----------



## cinxxx

Danke! Deutsch ist perfekt! :cheers2:

So it looks there are controls everywhere.
I will have to be very careful when I drive East a week before I return.
I have a hunch that many people like me will drive "home" on 19.12.
My plan is to make a stop in Bratislava and not go over Nickelsdorf, then drive to Hungary via Rajka.

Hopefully there will not be huge delays...


----------



## cinxxx

Something else: avoiding the Gleinalmtunnel and going by S35 and S36, is the time delay anywhere close like Google Maps says, around 15 minutes. I could plan a stop in Leoben, looks like a nice place.

Otherwise I could take the faster road and stop somewhere like Wels...

The only downside is that being end of December, the day is very short, so there is not much daylight.


----------



## celevac

cinxxx said:


> Danke! Deutsch ist perfekt! :cheers2:
> 
> So it looks there are controls everywhere.
> I will have to be very careful when I drive East a week before I return.
> I have a hunch that many people like me will drive "home" on 19.12.
> My plan is to make a stop in Bratislava and not go over Nickelsdorf, then drive to Hungary via Rajka.
> 
> Hopefully there will not be huge delays...


There are no border controls at Hegyeshalom/Nickelsdorf as of last weekend. The tents are still there, though. 

At Spielfeld, however, Austrian police still check cars crossing into Austria.


----------



## rudiwien

cinxxx said:


> Something else: avoiding the Gleinalmtunnel and going by S35 and S36, is the time delay anywhere close like Google Maps says, around 15 minutes. I could plan a stop in Leoben, looks like a nice place.



I'd say it's around 15-20 minutes, and yes, it is realistic; over the summer there was some repair on S36 from Bruck westwards and thus one-laned traffic which could have slowed you down, but that is finished since some weeks.

Btw, technically, it is S35 & S6, as S36 is the continuation of S6 after the intersection with the A9 in St. Michael... not really sure what is the logic behind that though 


Gleinalmtunnel will for sure be the better (but yes, more expensive) option in around 4 years, when the second tube is finished and it has two lanes in each direction, likely with a 100 speed limit; there isn't much you can see at the construction either 
Gleinalmtunnel and that part of the A9 is normally good to drive, three lanes in the uphill sections and no steep curves; however, on certain high-traffic weekends, mostly in summer, you can encounter a "Blockabfertigung", i.e. they let the cars through the tunnel only en-bloc; not sure if that happens often in winter, though.

S35 is an interesting road. For once, it goes through a rather interesting valley with some nice views, and it is a mixture of very old design (60s/70s) with rather big turns, and modern, as most of the northern section of S35 is a rather new motorway, finished ~ 5 years ago; in that part, it features many tunnels (that means also many pieces of 100km/h); in some places, the carriageways are on different levels. 

You would also drive over the bridge that was just recently repaired after it collapsed during repairs earlier this year (see e.g. http://steiermark.orf.at/news/stories/2745628/). S36 is also rather old alignment, but not that many turns, and the tunnels have all just been renovated in the last years.

In Bruck/Mur you would also see, in my opinion, one of the most ugly motorway intersections we have in Austria, all built in the fabulous times of the 70s: https://goo.gl/maps/ApSosuhjQr12; also the bridge of the S6 is not a very appealing site: https://goo.gl/maps/XF3V91TjufR2



cinxxx said:


> Otherwise I could take the faster road and stop somewhere like Wels...
> 
> The only downside is that being end of December, the day is very short, so there is not much daylight.


I'd say they are rather similar in what you can expect, with a small but neat town centre. Leoben might be a bit easier to get in, as it is in general a bit smaller, and not in the busy area Wels-Linz.
A totally different option for a stop is around Windischgarsten, where you would get a really nice small town, plus a very nice panorama with high mountains to almost all sides, quite unique.

Another way to waste time but save money is to go over the Pyhrnpass instead of the recently dualed Bosrucktunnel, along here: https://goo.gl/maps/jYe8ubD1TRw
It is not a pass like over the Arlberg, but still quite a nice drive, and normally not much traffic, except the part that goes through Liezen. But check before, if there is fresh snow it might not be a good idea.


----------



## rudiwien

cinxxx said:


> Danke! Deutsch ist perfekt! :cheers2:
> So it looks there are controls everywhere.
> I will have to be very careful when I drive East a week before I return.
> I have a hunch that many people like me will drive "home" on 19.12.
> My plan is to make a stop in Bratislava and not go over Nickelsdorf, then drive to Hungary via Rajka.
> 
> Hopefully there will not be huge delays...



I don't think that there are really controls from A -> HU/SK, so you should be fine with that.

You might end up in a traffic jam around the intersection of S1 & A4 south of Vienna, before the Airport, as indeed many people pass through there to Hungary or Romania, see below the Google maps traffic from the Saturday before Christmas last year.








They widened the A4 now to three lanes from the Airport to one exit further southwards (Fischamend), but I'd expect that to just move the traffic jam a bit more southwards, and not completely resolve it.

If you go to Bratislava, you could go along the B9 via Hainburg, which would be an alternative, interesting stopover instead of Bratislava.
If you go to SK, you'd also need the Slovak toll sticker, btw.


----------



## keber

You mean this?








Austrian police cars, presumably their first arrival into their checkpoint. This was probably the first instance that police from western country had border checkpoint in communist land.


----------



## Gyorgy

^^ And BG = Bundesgendarmerie


----------



## SRC_100

^^
Thanks mates for explanation.

I really thought it was the Yugoslav police with the registration of Belgrade :nuts:


----------



## Verso

SRC_100 said:


> What`s about those police cars with BG (Beograd/Belgrade) license plates?


I knew someone would ask that. :lol:



keber said:


> Austrian police cars, presumably their first arrival into their checkpoint. This was probably the first instance that police from western country had border checkpoint in communist land.


AFAIK, Slovenia wasn't communist/socialist any more (at least it changed its name in 1990 from Socialist Republic of Slovenia into Republic of Slovenia).


----------



## italystf

SRC_100 said:


> ^^
> Thanks mates for explanation.
> 
> I really thought it was the Yugoslav police with the registration of Belgrade :nuts:


I though the same. :lol:



Verso said:


> I knew someone would ask that. :lol:
> 
> AFAIK, Slovenia wasn't communist/socialist any more (at least it changed its name in 1990 from Socialist Republic of Slovenia into Republic of Slovenia).


Yes, in mid-1991 communism was already dead all over Europe.
That was almost 2 years after the opening of the Austro-Hungarian border, that was the first step of the fall of communism. Germany had been already re-united, Warsaw Pact countries had already held their first multi-party elections, even Soviet Union was already pursuing a pro-West policy, and will have become Russian Federation only six months later.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Yes, in mid-1991 communism was already dead all over Europe.


Well, I'm not sure about the rest of Yugoslavia.


----------



## Trupman

ChrisZwolle said:


> Even today black&white satellite imagery is common. Google Earth has tons of it (usually not in the default imagery though).


That is a whole different reason than shortage of panchromatic films, though. DigitalGlobe satellites are all capable of taking colour images (or better said they have more spectral bands which you can then combine into a colour imagery) however the panchromatic band has better resolution, therefore Google gives you more detailed sattelite imagery in black and white. Another reason might also be that Google saved money on buying "more bands" and rather bought only one panchromatic. :lol:


----------



## keber

Verso said:


> AFAIK, Slovenia wasn't communist/socialist any more (at least it changed its name in 1990 from Socialist Republic of Slovenia into Republic of Slovenia).


That is true, however the tunnel and border crossing were both planned and built back in an era of communist Yugoslavia so it was meant that western country will have border checkpoint in communist country.


----------



## italystf

keber said:


> That is true, however the tunnel and border crossing were both planned and built back in an era of communist Yugoslavia so it was meant that western country will have border checkpoint in communist country.


Was there a single joint border control station between Austria and Yugoslavia, like today on non-Schengen inter-EU borders (SLO-HR, H-RO, GR-BG)?
Tecnically, both countries were neutral back then, as neither Austria or Yugoslavia were part of NATO or Warsaw Pact, although one had a market economy and a democratic system, while the other had a planned economy and a single-party system.


----------



## Gyorgy

italystf said:


> Was there a single joint border control station between Austria and Yugoslavia, like today on non-Schengen inter-EU borders (SLO-HR, H-RO, GR-BG)?
> Tecnically, both countries were neutral back then, as neither Austria or Yugoslavia were part of NATO or Warsaw Pact, although one had a market economy and a democratic system, while the other had a planned economy and a single-party system.


The whole thing was made because of the lack of space on the Austrian side were there were SLO + A controls for entering SLO and so they agreed for vice versa in Slovenia.


----------



## Verso

italystf said:


> Was there a single joint border control station between Austria and Yugoslavia, like today on non-Schengen inter-EU borders (SLO-HR, H-RO, GR-BG)?


No, there were two separate controls one after another.



Gyorgy said:


> The whole thing was made because of the lack of space on the Austrian side were there were SLO + A controls for entering SLO and so they agreed for vice versa in Slovenia.


What lack of space? It was done so because they didn't want traffic jams to extend into the tunnel (but the same wasn't done by the Loibl Tunnel).


----------



## Gyorgy

Austrian side is pretty steep, they had to carve a lot, but I guess you are right.


----------



## keber

Verso is right, it was for safety reasons. At time of the opening this tunnel was considered for one of the safest one tube tunnels in the world if not the safest.


----------



## Schule04

italystf said:


> Is because of very strict privacy laws?


basemap.at has high-quality images of complete Austria:

basemap.at/application/index.html#{%22center%22:[1585862.9124038909,6035224.110369858],%22zoom%22:15,%22rotation%22:0,%22layers%22:%2200010000000%22}


Bing too.
So it's just a Google problem...


----------



## Christian_AT

Verso said:


> No, there were two separate controls one after another.
> 
> What lack of space? It was done so because they didn't want traffic jams to extend into the tunnel (but the same wasn't done by the Loibl Tunnel).


not for lack of space, but an other easy reason

first you have to pass the border control, only if yes you was allowed to use the tunnel
- no traffic jams in the tunnel caused from controls because the controls are already done
- no one has to go back through the very long tunnel if not allowed to enter the other country


----------



## Verso

And you didn't have to pay for the tunnel if you weren't allowed to cross the border.


----------



## rudiwien

I took a few pictures from the extension of the "A5 Nordautobahn" towards the Czech border, see the ASFINAG page http://www.asfinag.at/unterwegs/bau...chrick-poysbrunn-staatsgrenze-bei-drasenhofen for project details (in German)

The pictures are already a couple of weeks old, but maybe still interesting.

At the end of the current motorway at Schrick, traffic is diverted to the newly constructed national road "B7"; the old alignment will be used for one of the motorway carriageways, the new road is narrower, as it will only carry limited amounts of traffic. Map location: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/48.5206/16.6301




A few new bridges were constructed on the new B7, on the old B7 there was a continous damn.


On the right hand is the old B7, surface is being removed




Approaching the new exit Wilfersdorf Süd (Map: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/48.5613/16.6327), under the bridge you can see the new motorway alignment. At this exit, there is also a connection to the new Mistelbach bypass (B40/B46 in http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/48.5609/16.5796), which was opened end of last year, with a small section (L3168) opened just last month.




On the bridge over the future motorway; where we currently have the traffic lights, the final plan is to have roundabouts, even though that seems a bit narrow..



We are returning to the old B7, on the right hand side a part of the old road that was demolished already, this will not be used for the new motorway.


Driving in the opposite direction, before the Wilfersdorf Süd exit - the old road continued to the left, we turn right on the new alignment:





New motorway on the left hand side:




Merging back to the old B7 close to Schrick




A bit more northern the B7 intersects again with the A5 extension, at the future Wilfersdorf Nord interchange, map at http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/48.6038/16.6574:

Driving northwards, the B7 was realigned (maybe just temporarily), to allow for building a birdge over the motorway





Here the new motorway crosses the current B7:


Back to the old alignment:


Driving southbound, to the new alignment; the old surface on the right hand was already partially removed:



Crossing the new motorway:


Back to the old B7 alignment:


If everything goes according to plan, the new motorway will open at the end of 2017, thus around 18 months time remaining.
In 2017, they should also start working a bit more northwards, at the Drasenhofen bypass just south of the border. As a reminder - that bypass will be a single carriageway in the beginning, with an upgrade to full motorway standard planned when/if the Czechs upgrade their connection from Brno to the border.


----------



## bogdymol

On the Austria A8 there are some major works undergoing between exits Ried im Innkreis and Haag. There's a 12 km long construction site, and, as far as I can tell, I think they are widening the motorway to have a full hard shoulder (I remember before the works started that the hard shoulder was very narrow - you could hardly stop a car there without crossing the line). Some pictures taken yesterday:





































The motorway traffic has now 4 narrow lanes to drive on (2 + 1+1). The issue is that if you are on one of the "1" lanes you are stuck for the next 12 km behind all other traffic. The speed limit was 80 km/h, but the guy in front of me drove the entire 12 km with 55-60 km/h.


----------



## Christian_AT

bogdymol said:


> On the Austria A8 there are some major works undergoing between exits Ried im Innkreis and Haag. There's a 12 km long construction site, and, as far as I can tell, I think they are widening the motorway to have a full hard shoulder (I remember before the works started that the hard shoulder was very narrow - you could hardly stop a car there without crossing the line). Some pictures taken yesterday:
> 
> The motorway traffic has now 4 narrow lanes to drive on (2 + 1+1). The issue is that if you are on one of the "1" lanes you are stuck for the next 12 km behind all other traffic. The speed limit was 80 km/h, but the guy in front of me drove the entire 12 km with 55-60 km/h.


your report is complete right, nice pictures, add some information:

first take the right lane, it is not so narrow, trucks driving always 75-80 and you overtake the slow driving cars on the narrow left lane, additional you have a better view on the construction site during driving slow

this is a 2 summer construction site, this year in direction east in a 2+1 - 1 and next year summer than 1 - 1+2 in west direction

(german link - offical project description)
http://www.asfinag.at/unterwegs/bau...p_mode=view&p_o_p_id=56_INSTANCE_I8LKwiYWAPVa


----------



## Blackraven

I'm confused










If there is a "NO OVERTAKING" sign, then why does the road have dashed lines or broken lines on it? (which in my understanding means that overtaking is permitted as long as it is done safely)


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## Kanadzie

^^ temporary sign for construction works while lane markings are permanent?


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## MichiH

^^^^ Dashed lines do not automatically indicate a ban on passing and "No passing" signs do not automatically forbid to cross the line.


----------



## Eulanthe

About the B7 - will this junction remain in place?

https://www.google.com/maps/@48.5890937,16.653091,17z

It has a certain charm to it and I'd be sorry to see it go... 



Verso said:


> AFAIK, Slovenia wasn't communist/socialist any more (at least it changed its name in 1990 from Socialist Republic of Slovenia into Republic of Slovenia).


Trying to explain the 1990 elections in Slovenia/Croatia to anyone is impossible because the system was so confusing, but the communists didn't form part of the post-election government. Milan Kučan (leader of the post-communists and previously leader of the League of Communists in Slovenia) won the Presidential election, but it's probably safe to say that Communism was dead in Slovenia from 1989 onwards on a practical level.

From what I understand, when the tunnel opened, it was still legally Yugoslavia, although Slovenia had more or less completely ignored the federal government for months at that point. I'm pretty sure Slovenia had stopped transferring the customs revenues to Belgrade (I remember one number that said that something like 40% of federal revenue came from Slovenian border posts!), but you can see that the border police still have the red star on their caps in those pictures and hence they're still theoretically under federal Yugoslav command. 



> Well, I'm not sure about the rest of Yugoslavia.


Communism was definitely over in Croatia and they were following the same path as Slovenia, BiH couldn't make up their mind, Macedonia was still one foot in, one foot out and Serbia was still communist, just under a different name.

Trying to untangle what was going on in Yugoslavia in late 1990/early 1991 is nearly impossible, because the old system of federal elections had fallen apart (as the League of Communists of Yugoslavia had also fallen apart) and the Presidency couldn't agree on how to reform it. So you had a Communist Federal Assembly, a Presidency that was half communist and half democratic, democratic republican governments in most republics and one communist (Serbia) and...what a mess 

[quote="Keber]That is true, however the tunnel and border crossing were both planned and built back in an era of communist Yugoslavia so it was meant that western country will have border checkpoint in communist country. [/quote]

I don't think it was that big a deal, even back when the tunnel was being planned. Austria and Yugoslavia were on good terms with each other, there were tourist border crossings between A-YU, and Yugoslavia wasn't 'the enemy' unlike other communist countries.

The only thing I wonder - this system of controls must have meant no duty-free sales on the border?


----------



## Verso

^^ There was a duty free shop:


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## rudiwien

Eulanthe said:


> About the B7 - will this junction remain in place?
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/@48.5890937,16.653091,17z
> 
> It has a certain charm to it and I'd be sorry to see it go...



I would think it remains, as this is north of the area where they reuse the old B7 (which is just from "Schrick" to "Wilfersdorf Süd"), and there is no notice that they would rebuild the B7 in other areas.

"Your" junction is circled in red, while the A5 will pass by to the west of Wilfersdorf, and will only intersect with B7 north of Wilfersdorf (see also http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/48.5821/16.6398)










Maybe if there is in the future a bigger rehabilitation needed where they would need to repair bridges and rebuild the foundation of the B7, they might rebuild it more narrow, and replace such a junction with a roundabout, if that is cheaper in rehabilitation and future maintenance.
But nothing like that is intended at the moment, so you should be able to still enjoy the junction


----------



## rudiwien

Blackraven said:


> I'm confused
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If there is a "NO OVERTAKING" sign, then why does the road have dashed lines or broken lines on it? (which in my understanding means that overtaking is permitted as long as it is done safely)



I might be mistaken, but often, these dashed lines with a rather small distance between the dashes is seen when there is a no-passing zone, except for tractors. It might be that this is the intention here, and they had forgotten to /not yet mounted the additional "except tractors" sign below. Don't have any evidence to support that, though...


----------



## rudiwien

From the anniversary of the Karawanken Tunnel and the historic images of it to the future - ASFINAG released a statement showing how the northern (Austrian) portal will look like.

Here is the current view:


And a render of the dual carriageway:









And this is the winning project out of 10 participants in a contest:










It will feature a facade made of aluminium.

It seems to become a trend with ASFINAG to have differently designed tunnel portals. 
This will be the new one for the Gleinalm Tunnel on the A9 motorway between Graz and Linz, which is currently being duplicated:








And the recently duplicated Bosruck Tunnel, on the same motorway:









If you want to read the full story about the Karawanken tunnel design (in German):
http://www.asfinag.at/newsroom/pres...l-wird-architektonisch-auf-hochglanz-gebracht


As it was mentioned earlier, they are currently working on the southbound carriageway, on the bridge in front of the tunnel - on the render above in the foreground. Works on the tunnel are to start in 1.5 years (see http://www.asfinag.at/documents/101...4-f8b2-47df-a036-423e50c99d15?t=1441615303137 for more details)


----------



## Autobahn-mann

Blackraven said:


> I'm confused
> 
> If there is a "NO OVERTAKING" sign, then why does the road have dashed lines or broken lines on it? (which in my understanding means that overtaking is permitted as long as it is done safely)


I don't know how works and what prescribes the Austrian Highway Code, but, for example, the italian Highway Code prescribes a hierarchy of the signs and, in that case, the vertical signs prevail on the horizontal signs...


----------



## pccvspw999

rudiwien said:


> I might be mistaken, but often, these dashed lines with a rather small distance between the dashes is seen when there is a no-passing zone, except for tractors. It might be that this is the intention here, and they had forgotten to /not yet mounted the additional "except tractors" sign below. Don't have any evidence to support that, though...


Lines and signs referr to different matters and don't have to be necessarily coordinated. A continuous line is something which shall not be crossed at any tine for any reason. If there is not a "overtake prohibited" sing You may do it also with a continuous marking if You don't cross the line (rarely roads/lanes are wide enough). On the other hand if you have to the cross the line, the overtake is not possible, but not prohibited.
In the picture the situation is viceversa: your not allowed to overtake, even if there is a dashed line. The "overtake prohibited" sign says You not allowed to overtake at any time and for any reason, exept motorcycles or bicyclee, even if there is no road marking at all.
It is not completely correct to say that there is a hierarchy between signs (traffic lights and gestures of police officers are compulsory regardless to any other singage), but it's true that You have to respect the meaning of any sign You encounter. Only in case of contradictory meanings, vertical signs are to be respected instead of road signs.
In this case there is no contradiction, the meaning is: you can cross the line, but not if You're driving a motorvehicle and You want to overtake another motorvehicle with axis (p.e.car to overtake car). If You want to over take a motorvehicle, you may, even if You have to cross the line.


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## verreme

^^ It's a bit more simple to me:

- You may not overtake

- You may turn (or cross the line to do whatever that is not overtaking)

That's how I'd understand it in my country and it also applies to most other European countries.


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## patakcze

This is going to be fun. 1+1 on the A23 just north of the Praterbrücke.


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## keber

S2 is quite substandard motorway and it is strange that despite many enlargement project in and around Wien nothing happens here.


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## patakcze

Traffic volumes on the S2 will probably go down a lot after the eastern part of S1 is built.


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## rudiwien

When I saw that announcement I was also really wondering, I expect massive issues with this.
True, they are doing the lane closure (basically from 2+2 to 1+1) during summer holidays, which has significantly lower traffic volumes; but then again, this part is still a very busy road.
Though most of the congestion happens southbound, and is mostly a consequence of traffic confluences at the "Knoten Kaisermühlen", where A22 and A23 and kind-of 2 on-ramps merge - see here: https://www.google.at/maps/@48.2121534,16.4500347,1580m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=de

Indeed this stretch of A23, which then becomes S2, is sub-standard, basically along this route: https://goo.gl/maps/Z5R9Sk9XbnT2

It features in the beginning 3 lanes, then 2 lanes, but all without emergency strips, and they generally feel more narrow. This stretch is mostly from the early 90s, a few shots below (south to north)









There is already since a few months works going on, but they have been able to do with limited lane width, and lane closures only overnight, so impact was not that bad. In the pictures 4 & 6 above you can see the concrete barrier that they move in every night, with a Road Zipper: http://www.barriersystemsinc.com/road-zipper-for-construction

I think upgrading this stretch would be bound by the limited space available. Also, a lot of the carriageway is on bridges and in tunnels, so that would be rather expensive, and especially for the tunnel complicated to be upgraded under traffic.

Indeed, traffic volumes should be lower wit the S1 and the tunnel under the Danube being built, but that will take at least 10 more years - the environmental approval is being challenged, and there are also political discussions, the green party being member of the city government is opposing the tunnel..
Current estimates (see http://www.asfinag.at/unterwegs/bau...ußenring-schnellstraße-schwechat-–-sußenbrunn) are for construction work on the tunnel to start in 2018, with the opening in 2025.


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## patakcze

*B317 + S36 : Unzmarkt - Sankt Georgen ob Judenburg *
with the _Unterflurtrasse St. Georgen ob Judenburg_


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## ChrisZwolle

Today is the first really busy travel day of the summer. The Tauern/Katschberg Tunnel twinning really pays off, there are no reports of congestion despite southern Germany being a traffic chaos with an absurd amount of congestion on almost every Autobahn. An Asfinag webcam even shows short queues at the toll plaza near Sankt Michael im Lungau.


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## Verso

6.5 km before the Karawankentunnel.


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## rudiwien

The construction work on A23 north of the Danube, where one carriageway is closed and thus a 1+1 remains, is now in full swing, and even outside rush hours, it leads to significant delays.
You can check it on Google maps, northbound: https://goo.gl/maps/qwF64ARNk7J2, southbound: https://goo.gl/maps/M4aBynVvSjT2

Especially northbound is problematic, because the traffic jam tails back and also affects motorists who want to go on the A22, the interchange for which is really close before the construction zone.

A few pictures from driving there this week, northbound; there was around 20 minutes delay on this section.

~1 km before the construction work zone:

Approaching the first tunnel, where we have one lane continuing, and one lane turning into an exit (Stadlau)





Between the two tunnels:



North of the second tunnel, where the construction work ends.



The southbound queue started to form just after Breitenleer Straße:




Generally, southbound seemed less an issue at the time of driving (just before the afternoon rush hour), and also later at 19.30 there was absolutely no queue southbound - but still significant traffic delays northbound.

Due to it being summer at significantly less people in the city, the situation is still not as bad as it would be during other periods, and thus, A23 remains most of the times the preferred route if you want to get from the center or from the south to the north-eastern parts of Vienna (or just through it), as the next Danube crossing (Reichsbrücke) is 3.5 km upstream, and albeit multi-laned, the route goes through residential areas and is thus also rather slow.

Two snapshots from Google Maps traffic estimation, at 15.20 and 16.20 respectively, with up to 30 minutes delay:


----------



## Fab87

How do you feel about the Süd Autobahn between Klagenfurt and Graz? I drove through it recently after long time and i was negatively surprised, it felt rather unpleasant to drive on with many unnecessary and dangerous steep curves and all galleries were "tempo 100". 
I found the Tauer Autobahn much better, and that's a freakin mountain autobahn!


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## ChrisZwolle

A2 was built rather recently for such an important connection between major cities. The first segment didn't open until 1985, and the final segment wasn't completed until 1999.

B70 precedes A2 as the main route between Klagenfurt and Graz. It hasn't been upgraded a lot despite the relatively late construction of A2. It goes through nearly all towns and most upgrades in the Voitsberg area weren't completed until after A2 was built. 

A2 is quite curvy through the mountains. In a sense it's a mountain motorway, there are several large viaducts and tunnels. A2 goes over the mountains, whereas A10 mainly stays in valleys and crosses the major ranges with long tunnels. The Packsattel area is too wide to tunnel (it would require a 30 km tunnel for A2 to stay level). I was surprised to see three lanes west of Graz though.


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## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> I was surprised to see three lanes west of Graz though.


It's just a few kilometers.


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## ChrisZwolle

It's a bit longer than that, at just over 20 kilometers.


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## x-type

certain part is 3+2


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## bogdymol

Yesterday I drove on B317, through the newly opened tunnel under Sankt Georgen ob Judenburg. What really surprised me was that, although it is less than 1 km long and not connected to any motorway or expressway in Austria, you need a vignette to drive through it (it was signed like this just before the last exit, before the tunnel entrance and was also written that the lorries need the automatic payment box to pay for crossing this tunnel). I know that later it will be part of S36, but as it is so short and not connected to anything else, should't it be free? I thought that the main purpose of building this tunnel was to get traffic out of the village, but if you force even the locals to buy a vignette for 1 km, it makes no sense.


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## rudiwien

Fab87 said:


> How do you feel about the Süd Autobahn between Klagenfurt and Graz? I drove through it recently after long time and i was negatively surprised, it felt rather unpleasant to drive on with many unnecessary and dangerous steep curves and all galleries were "tempo 100".
> I found the Tauer Autobahn much better, and that's a freakin mountain autobahn!





ChrisZwolle said:


> A2 was built rather recently for such an important connection between major cities. The first segment didn't open until 1985, and the final segment wasn't completed until 1999.
> 
> B70 precedes A2 as the main route between Klagenfurt and Graz. It hasn't been upgraded a lot despite the relatively late construction of A2. It goes through nearly all towns and most upgrades in the Voitsberg area weren't completed until after A2 was built.
> 
> A2 is quite curvy through the mountains. In a sense it's a mountain motorway, there are several large viaducts and tunnels. A2 goes over the mountains, whereas A10 mainly stays in valleys and crosses the major ranges with long tunnels. The Packsattel area is too wide to tunnel (it would require a 30 km tunnel for A2 to stay level).



As Chris says, these two have a totally different topography in the mountains they cross. A10 goes along narrow valleys, and has two medium-long tunnels (>5km) to cross the mountains between them. I would not really call A10 a mountain motorway, therefore. A2 on the other hand goes to around 1050m above see level, from an elevation of ~350m at Mooskirchen west of Graz.
A further evidence for the difficulty of crossing this mountain range between Graz an Klagenfurt can be seen in the non-existence of any railroad crossing it - even though Austria has built long railroad tunnels since the late 19th century (for example, the Arlberg tunnel between Tyrol and Vorarlberg was built between 1879 and 1884, and measures more than 10,6 km...).
Only recently the Koralmtunnel is built as a base tunnel, being >30km long.

One other reason why A2 is not the most pleasant to drive - while it is rather "young" indeed (only 34 years since first opened in 1982, after 6 years of building time), it was built in a time of the oil price shocks and increasing state debts, and thus as what got to be known as a "Sparautobahn" - it was built as cheap as possible.
It featured only the uphill carriageways on which they cramped 4 lanes without any emergency stopping lanes, and partially also without any median barrier, lanes were also only 3,5 meters wide, and they reduced the radius of curves from 400 to 200m.
Overtaking a truck in such a curve was really tough - if you had gotten this experience, you would actually really like the appearance of the motorway now 
Only much later, and after a lot of deadly accidents, they started to appreciate safety over costs, and only in 2007 the duplication was completely finalised; the alignment was not much changed, though.

You can see a similar example, albeit less extreme, on the A2 between Graz and Vienna - built in a similar time, and also with a lot of curves, no tunnels, and a 100 speed limit for most of the time. If you take the S6 between Graz and Vienna, most of it in the Semmering area is from ~12 years ago, and features a much straighter alignment. Due to the many tunnels, you also have a long stretch of 100km/h there. And on the other side towards Vienna, on a much older alignment, again the alignment is much more adapted to the mountains, featuring many narrow curves.




ChrisZwolle said:


> I was surprised to see three lanes west of Graz though.


The total length of the 3+3 is >40km, from Gleisdorf east of Graz to ~Mooskirchen west of Graz; maybe around 20 km west of the Graz West interchange.
This is indeed one of the few motorways in Austria that had 3 lanes per direction right from the beginning, only parts of the A23 in Vienna, and the A9 around Graz had that, others that are now 3 lanes have been gradually expanded.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's a bit longer than that, at just over 20 kilometers.


Oh, I thought it was less than 10 km.



bogdymol said:


> Yesterday I drove on B317, through the newly opened tunnel under Sankt Georgen ob Judenburg. What really surprised me was that, although it is less than 1 km long and not connected to any motorway or expressway in Austria, you need a vignette to drive through it (it was signed like this just before the last exit, before the tunnel entrance and was also written that the lorries need the automatic payment box to pay for crossing this tunnel). I know that later it will be part of S36, but as it is so short and not connected to anything else, should't it be free? I thought that the main purpose of building this tunnel was to get traffic out of the village, but if you force even the locals to buy a vignette for 1 km, it makes no sense.


Do you need a vignette for the 4-lane part of B317 between St. Georgen and Unzmarkt?


----------



## patakcze

rudiwien said:


> And on the other side towards Vienna, on a much older alignment, again the alignment is much more adapted to the mountains, featuring many narrow curves.


The old part of S6 is really fun to drive. Winding between the mountains and a 130kmph speed limit kay:



Verso said:


> Do you need a vignette for the 4-lane part of B317 between St. Georgen and Unzmarkt?


Nope.
Edit: You can see my post here


----------



## Negjana

rudiwien said:


> This is indeed one of the few motorways in Austria that had 3 lanes per direction right from the beginning, only parts of the A23 in Vienna, and the A9 around Graz had that, others that are now 3 lanes have been gradually expanded.


Also A2 between Vienna and Wiener Neustadt.


----------



## Fab87

rudiwien said:


> As Chris says, these two have a totally different topography in the mountains they cross. A10 goes along narrow valleys, and has two medium-long tunnels (>5km) to cross the mountains between them. I would not really call A10 a mountain motorway, therefore. A2 on the other hand goes to around 1050m above see level, from an elevation of ~350m at Mooskirchen west of Graz.
> A further evidence for the difficulty of crossing this mountain range between Graz an Klagenfurt can be seen in the non-existence of any railroad crossing it - even though Austria has built long railroad tunnels since the late 19th century (for example, the Arlberg tunnel between Tyrol and Vorarlberg was built between 1879 and 1884, and measures more than 10,6 km...).
> Only recently the Koralmtunnel is built as a base tunnel, being >30km long.
> 
> One other reason why A2 is not the most pleasant to drive - while it is rather "young" indeed (only 34 years since first opened in 1982, after 6 years of building time), it was built in a time of the oil price shocks and increasing state debts, and thus as what got to be known as a "Sparautobahn" - it was built as cheap as possible.
> It featured only the uphill carriageways on which they cramped 4 lanes without any emergency stopping lanes, and partially also without any median barrier, lanes were also only 3,5 meters wide, and they reduced the radius of curves from 400 to 200m.
> Overtaking a truck in such a curve was really tough - if you had gotten this experience, you would actually really like the appearance of the motorway now
> Only much later, and after a lot of deadly accidents, they started to appreciate safety over costs, and only in 2007 the duplication was completely finalised; the alignment was not much changed, though.
> 
> You can see a similar example, albeit less extreme, on the A2 between Graz and Vienna - built in a similar time, and also with a lot of curves, no tunnels, and a 100 speed limit for most of the time. If you take the S6 between Graz and Vienna, most of it in the Semmering area is from ~12 years ago, and features a much straighter alignment. Due to the many tunnels, you also have a long stretch of 100km/h there. And on the other side towards Vienna, on a much older alignment, again the alignment is much more adapted to the mountains, featuring many narrow curves.
> 
> 
> 
> The total length of the 3+3 is >40km, from Gleisdorf east of Graz to ~Mooskirchen west of Graz; maybe around 20 km west of the Graz West interchange.
> This is indeed one of the few motorways in Austria that had 3 lanes per direction right from the beginning, only parts of the A23 in Vienna, and the A9 around Graz had that, others that are now 3 lanes have been gradually expanded.


Thank you both for the very exhaustive answers. The mountains between Graz and Klagenfurt look very "hill-ish", so I didn't notice we were so high above sea level. I reckon it is quite a issue, especially for logistics, in the winter season, if the main link between Vienna and southern Austria can be interrupted by intense snowfall. 
It should be the second highest austrian highway after the A13 on Brenner Pass right?


----------



## rudiwien

Fab87 said:


> Thank you both for the very exhaustive answers. The mountains between Graz and Klagenfurt look very "hill-ish", so I didn't notice we were so high above sea level.



I agree, the mountains look rather gentle, and you climb up over a rather long distance, so it can be deceiving indeed.
It is somewhat more spectacular on the side of Klagenfurt, where you have a few really high bridges. The highest peak in that mountain range is considerably to the south of the Pack-pass, at 2.140m: https://goo.gl/maps/YaaXkq81QU42



Fab87 said:


> I reckon it is quite a issue, especially for logistics, in the winter season, if the main link between Vienna and southern Austria can be interrupted by intense snowfall.
> It should be the second highest austrian highway after the A13 on Brenner Pass right?



Severe disruptions due to heavy snow are actually rather rare, but of course occasionally you might have to go really slow if the cleaning trucks have not been out before you.

Regarding the elevation, I found this page (in German):
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Pässe_in_Österreich

If you sort by "Passhöhe" (elevation of the pass), and then search for the first "Autobahn", you will indeed see the "Packsattel" as next in line after Brenner, the elevation quoted is however from the national road, and not from the motorway, which has a tunnel underneath, and is thus ~100m lower.
(You have to ignore entries with Autobahn-T, which means a motorway tunnel)


----------



## g.spinoza

If I remember correctly, also A10 rises up to 1000+ m above sea level...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Yes, to approximately 1340 meters above sea level near the southern portal of the Tauern Tunnel, according to Google Earth elevation data.


----------



## satanism

There's a signpost at the highest point on the A10, which iirc states exactly 1340m


----------



## Christian_AT

satanism said:


> There's a signpost at the highest point on the A10, which iirc states exactly 1340m


basically our motorways are built in existing mountain valleys, there are only 2 motorways where was no existing valley which can be used

A21, southwest bypass of vienna, cause in the winter heavy problems with stucked trucks if there is medium-lot snow fall

A2, the choosen south route has no good valleys, so a lot of height difference and narrow curves, normally only problems if heavy snow fall

a good indicator is to see if there exits a railway line or not in this area


----------



## bogdymol

In August will start a new construction site on A1 motorway in Austria: between Pöchlarn and Matzleinsdorf the motorway will be enlarged from 2 lanes per direction to 3 lanes per direction. Around 65.000 vehicles drive on this section daily. During the construction, the traffic will go on 2 narrow lanes on each direction, with 80 km/h speed limit.

The works shall be completed in May 2018, so it will take slightly under 2 years for this job. The total costs are around 33M Euro.

After completion, A1 motorway will be continuously with 3 lanes each direction between Vienna (junction with A21) and Wels (junction with A8/A9).

Press release ASFiNAG.


----------



## Negjana

bogdymol said:


> After completion, A1 motorway will be continuously with 3 lanes each direction between Vienna (junction with A21) and Wels (junction with A8/A9).


Just to be exact:

Six lanes will reach from *Knoten Steinhäusel* (A1/A21) to *Knoten Voralpenkreuz* (A1/A8/A9). (technically only to the Exit Sattledt 1km before Knoten Voralpenkreuz)

164km of continuous sixlane motorway in Austria. :cheers:


----------



## satanism

A serious education on how to drive on 3-lane motorways is needed in Austria, though....


----------



## x-type

satanism said:


> A serious education on how to drive on 3-lane motorways is needed in Austria, though....


why? if i ever saw drivers tending to keep on rightmost lane, it was in Austria.


----------



## Attus

satanism said:


> A serious education on how to drive on 3-lane motorways is needed in Austria, though....


Education for whom? Quite a large part of drivers who drive in Austria, did not learn driving in Austria...


----------



## satanism

Doesn't matter where they learned to drive initially.Austria needs to run education campaigns on how to drive on a 3-laned motorway, now that you have more of them....there are many ways to do that, especially nowadays.
I've driven the Vienna Linz stretch many times and a lot of drivers are still driving in the middle lane, despite the one to the right being free. When I flash them, some understand, some look at me like i'm an UFO or something, and it is very annoying AND dangerous to move 3 lanes just to overpass a bewilded one....

It also needs to be enforced properly by the police....as otherwise the benefit of having 3 lanes is greatly diminished


----------



## patakcze

Can anyone provide an up-to-date list of speeding fines in Austria?


----------



## KingNick

You can calculate it yourself here: http://autorevue.at/bussgeldrechner

Select "Geschwindigkeitsüberschreitung" in the first drop down menu. The second drop down menu asks you where the violation happened and gives you the options "Ortsgebiet" (within city limits), "Autobahn" and "Freilandstraße" (all the roads outside city limits that are not Autobahns).


----------



## ukraroad

KingNick said:


> Geschwindigkeitsüberschreitung(...) "Ortsgebiet


Hahaha, self-understandable language:troll:


----------



## Fab87

Now imagine it pronounced with a strong Styrian accent, for example


----------



## rudiwien

*A9/Gleinalmtunnel blocked for ~1 Month*

There was a fire in a Danish bus-rebuilt-to-an-RV yesterday ~18.00 in the Gleinalmtunnel between Graz and St. Michael.
Luckily no victims, just minor smoke inhalation for ~12 people.

The serious side-effect - the roof of the tunnel seems to be severely damaged. They can't yet get fully assess it, as the concrete is still too hot, but the early estimations are a 4-6 weeks closure of the tunnel.

This leads already to huge traffic delays on the alternative route, which is S35 to Bruck, and then S6 to St. Michael. There is a construction site on S6 which reduces it to 1+1, delays are in the range of 1-2 hours, depending on where you go, see https://goo.gl/maps/rScC6RhSMc72 and https://goo.gl/maps/AH3C97nqVk42 (Google doesn't yet know about the closure of the tunnel, it tries to route you through...)

From Graz on S35, the traffic jam forms before the Bruck/Mur interchange (https://www.google.at/maps/@47.405512,15.2829664,894m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=de), which has one lane connecting to S6 westbound; on S6 the delay is before the beginning of that construction site.

Asfinag announced they would improve/suspend the construction site while the tunnel is closed, still the Bruck/Mur interchange can be an issue, as it has only one lane for this S6<->S35 relation.

News article in German: http://steiermark.orf.at/news/stories/2789423/









Asfinag news entry suggest to detour also via A2 and A10.


> A 9 KN St. Michael
> A09 Pyhrn Highway, in both directions, between Kn St.Michael (km 133) and ASt Übelbach (km 157) in tunnel Gleinalm, roadblock due to accident, tunnel blocked, Fahrtdirection Graz detour via S6 and S35; Fahrtdirection Germany, Salzburg and Linz detour via A2 (It) and A10 (D)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Wow that is unfortunate.


----------



## Krlesius

With the MotoGP race next weekend(12.-14.08.) it will be madness to get to Spielberg. Maybe is better to go via B77, Graz - Köflach - Zeltweg - Spielberg?


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## italystf

Such unfortunate events tell how much is important to have twin-tubes tunnels. Some 'environmentalists', such as those who oppose the second bore of the St. Gothard tunnel in CH, should learn.
Austria did/is doing a good job in duplicating all tunnels on A9, A10, and A11. In few years Arlberg will remain the only major bottleneck in Austria.


----------



## rheintram

There is no point in building a second tube on the Arlberg tunnel, since large parts of the S16 are only 1+1 and there's the pass road aswell (which I always take).


----------



## italystf

rheintram said:


> There is no point in building a second tube on the Arlberg tunnel, since large parts of the S16 are only 1+1 and there's the pass road aswell (which I always take).


The whole S16 should be turned into a motorway, giving the international importance of this corridor. I don't know AADT and accident rate on this road, though.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Improvements to the Fernpass should be a higher priority. There is massive congestion during the winter and summer there. Delays of 1-2 hours occur on that route.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Improvements to the Fernpass should be a higher priority. There is massive congestion during the winter and summer there. Delays of 1-2 hours occur on that route.


But Innsbruck-Munich via Kufstein is only 12km longer (and some minutes faster) than via Fernpass.
https://www.google.it/maps/dir/Inns...84a7db1987d!2m2!1d11.5819806!2d48.1351253!3e0
S16, instead, is the only fast connection between Austria and Switzerland.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ The Fernpass is farther west than the route on the map you linked. B179 runs across the Fernpass. The Fernpass also doesn't serve traffic to München primarily, but to central, western & northern Germany.


----------



## italystf

The famous Glossglockner road (elevation around 2,500m) looks like this today:


----------



## rudiwien

Regarding the Arlbergtunnel on the S16, currently it is around 8.000 vehicles a day.
It is an important tunnel mostly for that fact that it guarantees a passage during winter, when the pass is often closed, especially to heavier vehicles. But obvioulsy the AADT doesn't warrant a duplication.
Also, if there was even the slightes motivation for a duplication, it would have been now: due to safety regulations, they are working since last year to improve the escape tunnels, to the railway tunnel. This meant last year a complete closure of the tunnel in summer, and also this summer, closures happen almost daily from 21:00 to 05:00. The money invested in the safety upgrade, plus the loss in toll income, still doesn't seem to be enough to make a duplication feasible.. With this emergency escape upgrades, I also don't think duplication will come in the next decade(s).

Regarding Fernpass, that is a difficult topic. One the one hand, the problems are a classical case of holiday traffic overload of the road network, other days it is not that bad. And, nobody wants to open the Pandora's box of providing an improved road that would attract even more traffic in that area...

However, there is a recent moves towards a potential tunnel (1+1). There are first geological drillings for a Fernpass tunnel, around https://www.google.at/maps/@47.3470222,10.8248632,12.84z?hl=de; see e.g. http://www.tt.com/panorama/verkehr/11725475-91/erste-erkundungsbohrungen-für-fernpass.csp for a news report in German.
In addition to that tunnel, one would probably also need the "Tschirganttunnel" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tschirganttunnel), which would connect Nassereith with the A12 near Haiming, around here: https://goo.gl/maps/fgJmzy7jZ4A2.
I guess if built, they would both need to be tolled in some form, to avoid people escaping the tolls on the motorway.


----------



## Verso

Accident in the Karawankentunnel.

EDIT: luckily nothing special, the tunnel is open again


----------



## rheintram

S16 is fine as it is. I actually like that it's such a diverse road...


----------



## roaddor

^^
^^
^^
^^
Surprised to see that the temperatures dropped so low in August even in the unpredictable Alps at 2500m and caused this snowfall.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Improvements to the Fernpass should be a higher priority. There is massive congestion during the winter and summer there. Delays of 1-2 hours occur on that route.


It's discussed to build some tunnels and other improvements but no 4-laned widening. It's just discussed for years but nothing will happen soon(/ever).


----------



## KingNick

roaddor said:


> ^^
> ^^
> Surprised to see that the temperatures dropped so low in August even in the unpredictable Alps at 2500m and caused this snowfall.


Not that uncommon.


----------



## rower2000

italystf said:


> ^^ Autostraße? Which road category is it? Any example of such roads?


The Austrian road laws are a mess . At first, there are the classifications according to the Straßenverkehrsordnung (StVO):


Autobahn (motorway), signposted with the international motorway sign
130 km/h speed limit (unless otherwise signposted)
limited access (max design speed of vehicle must exceed 60 km/h)
no at-grade junctions
usually divided carriageways for both directions
Autostraße (limited access highway), signposted with the rectangular sign showing a car front as is visible on KingNick's pic just behind the Deutschfeistritz exit sign
100 km/h speed limit (unless otherwise signposted)
limited access (max design speed of vehicle must exceed 60 km/h)
at-grade junctions possible
no divided carriageways necessary
Straße mit Vorrang, road number sign blue and rectangular
normal road, but with priority over side streets (they have STOP or yield signs)
Straße ohne Vorrang
all other roads
and then you have the classification according to the Bundesstraßengesetz (Federal Highway Act):

Autobahnen
originally planned as the main trunk routes
have to be Autobahnen in the sense of the StVO (see above)
Schnellstraßen
originally planned as the main feeder routes for the Autobahn and regional trunk routes
can be either Autobahn or Autostraße in the sense of the StVO
originally had some more relaxed design parameters (curve radii, speed in exit and entrance ramps, width of right-of-way, etc.)
However, as stated above all design differences between Autobahn and Schnellstraße according to BStG were put away with, now it's really just stupid marketing.


----------



## m_rocco

I remember B50 from Eisenstadt towards Bratislava had that sign with car front and 100 kmh speed limit. So is that an Autostraße?


----------



## rudiwien

^^

Yes, that sign is for Autostraße:









The B50 has indeed partially the "Autostraße" signs, especially those sections that are (rather new) bypasses of settlements, such as the one of "Schützen am Gebirge", but also other sections along the road are "Autostraßen", basically the ones that are marked in orange (see http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/47.8940/16.6754)


----------



## bogdymol

I remember seeing that blue sign on the road between Eisenstadt and Parndorf.

But that sign is quite widely used in Austria, even on other roads. I remember seeing it on the main road around Schladming, or on the main road between Vöcklabruck and Wels. Or other smaller roads, on short stretches that are of higher standard.


----------



## KingNick

rower2000 said:


> The Austrian road laws are a mess


They really are not. StVO and BStG have a different scope. Nothing confusing about it, especially since only the StVO is relevant for the average citizen.


----------



## MichiH

rower2000 said:


> The Austrian road laws are a mess .
> 
> [...]
> 
> you have the classification according to the Bundesstraßengesetz (Federal Highway Act):
> 
> Autobahnen
> originally planned as the main trunk routes
> have to be Autobahnen in the sense of the StVO (see above)
> Schnellstraßen
> originally planned as the main feeder routes for the Autobahn and regional trunk routes
> can be either Autobahn or Autostraße in the sense of the StVO
> originally had some more relaxed design parameters (curve radii, speed in exit and entrance ramps, width of right-of-way, etc.)


 "Autobahnen" and "Schnellstraßen" are called "Bundesstraßen" (federal roads). Former "Bundesstraßen" (B roads) are called "Landesstraßen B" since 1st April 2002 because they are state-owned now. Former "Landesstraßen" are called "Landesstraßen A" and are still state-owned.

German "Bundesstraßen" are still B roads though. "Bundesfernstraßen" are federal roads, "Autobahn" and "Bundesstraßen". Germany does not have "Schnellstraßen" or "Autostrassen".
Switzerland's federal roads are called "Autobahnen", "Autostrassen" and "Hauptstrassen" (= main roads). Swiss use "ss" instead of "ß"...


----------



## Christian_AT

rudiwien said:


> There was a fire in a Danish bus-rebuilt-to-an-RV yesterday ~18.00 in the Gleinalmtunnel between Graz and St. Michael.
> Luckily no victims, just minor smoke inhalation for ~12 people.
> 
> The serious side-effect - the roof of the tunnel seems to be severely damaged. They can't yet get fully assess it, as the concrete is still too hot, but the early estimations are a 4-6 weeks closure of the tunnel.
> 
> This leads already to huge traffic delays on the alternative route, which is S35 to Bruck, and then S6 to St. Michael. There is a construction site on S6 which reduces it to 1+1, delays are in the range of 1-2 hours, depending on where you go, see https://goo.gl/maps/rScC6RhSMc72 and https://goo.gl/maps/AH3C97nqVk42 (Google doesn't yet know about the closure of the tunnel, it tries to route you through...)
> 
> From Graz on S35, the traffic jam forms before the Bruck/Mur interchange (https://www.google.at/maps/@47.405512,15.2829664,894m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=de), which has one lane connecting to S6 westbound; on S6 the delay is before the beginning of that construction site.
> 
> Asfinag announced they would improve/suspend the construction site while the tunnel is closed, still the Bruck/Mur interchange can be an issue, as it has only one lane for this S6<->S35 relation.
> 
> News article in German: http://steiermark.orf.at/news/stories/2789423/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asfinag news entry suggest to detour also via A2 and A10.


good news, should be open Thursday 25 August again (only 3 weeks)

(german link) see pictures

http://www.kleinezeitung.at/steierm...lmtunnel-los#image-Gleinalm5_1471441078806102


----------



## bogdymol

Too late for me... I should drive through it tomorrow... twice. I'll have to use the detour though.


----------



## Fab87

Some questions: is it true that each Bundesland can impose speed limits on national highways?
I drove A1 from Linz to Vienna last week and for the whole stretch in Upper Austria (3 +3 straight highway ) electronic panels showed speed limit 100!!!
The same applies the other way round, on A21 speed limit 80 suddenly becomes 130 in a rather curvy and dangerous segment 
Last questions,on A1 around Melk there are about 10km with 2 lanes where the whole highway is 3 +3. Traffic there is always intense, any chance of seeing that segment updated? Edit:last question was answered 3 pages ago


----------



## bogdymol

^^
1. Not the whole stretch, but about 20 km is limited to 100 km/h when Ig-L is active. 

2. On A21 yes, the speed limit changes suddenly on top of a hill in a curve from 130 to 80 km/h (and other way around on the opposite direction). I suppose the 80 limit is for noise polution in the area, but I don't know the official story behind it. 

3. A1 around Melk has just started to be widened. Last week-end I saw that they were removing the trees nearby the motorway to make room for the construction site. Will be done in 2 years time.


----------



## KingNick

Bundesländer can only impose speed limits under the scope of the Immissionsschutzgesetz-Luft (Clean Air Act). Ordinary speed limits on Autobahns are subject to regulations of the Federal Ministry.


----------



## Fab87

bogdymol said:


> ^^
> 1. Not the whole stretch, but about 20 km is limited to 100 km/h when Ig-L is active.
> 
> 2. On A21 yes, the speed limit changes suddenly on top of a hill in a curve from 130 to 80 km/h (and other way around on the opposite direction). I suppose the 80 limit is for noise polution in the area, but I don't know the official story behind it.
> 
> 3. A1 around Melk has just started to be widened. Last week-end I saw that they were removing the trees nearby the motorway to make room for the construction site. Will be done in 2 years time.


Why point 1?
It's a flat segment with no curves and 3+3 lanes.


----------



## Corvinus

The thing with the idiot IG-L ("Immissionsschutzgesetz-Luft") is that speeding on such a stretch may result in a charge with environmental (air) pollution, with a much heavier sanction than the standard fine. I wonder how many pollution charges, and over what threshold of over-speeding, have been pressed yet.


----------



## celevac

Yeah, it's ridiculous. Worst thing if you drive from Spielfeld on A9 towards Graz and on to Vienna on A2, especially in winter at night, when there are no cars around and you have to go 100 km/h for 60 km (from Leibnitz to Sinabelkirchen) on an empty 2x2 and 2x3 motorway. :bash:

Croatia isn't any better though, with 100 km/h on the entire motorway network during rainy periods....


----------



## bogdymol

In Romania is the maximum speed on motorways during rain is 80 km/h. It is good that we do not have so many motorways, as when you exit the motorway you can drive with 100 km/h during the same rain. Speak about stupid rules...


----------



## Attus

celevac said:


> Yeah, it's ridiculous.


I think people living nearby have the right to clean air.


----------



## italystf

In Italy, where we have draining asphalt in much of our network, speed limit with rain is 110 and speed cameras are adjusted in case of rain.
110 il reasonable, 80 is ridiculosly low.


----------



## winnipeg

bogdymol said:


> In Romania is the maximum speed on motorways during rain is 80 km/h. It is good that we do not have so many motorways, as when you exit the motorway you can drive with 100 km/h during the same rain. Speak about stupid rules...


I tought it was I mistake when I first saw this sign... 80km/h on highways... :lol: :bash:

I almost never saw anyone respect this limitation on rainy weather on romanian A1... (and not even me, I generaly cruise at 100-110km/h) 

The french rain limitations on highways are the best for me : 110km/h


----------



## winnipeg

Attus said:


> I think people living nearby have the right to clean air.


Is it based on any serious study who showed that a small 20km/h could change so much? Or is it just an environmentalist car-o-phobic idea? 

By the way a better way to promote a less poluted air would be to stop giving a tax exemption on diesel, in Austria diesel is not taxed according to the polution it produce, austrian diesel is one of the cheapest of western Europe and even compared to Hungary or Romania...

Meanwhile even France (a very pro-diesel country who gave an big tax advantage to it for decades also because of the big diesel industry they have) are deleting this tax exemption to push customers to buy more gasoline cars (who produce less toxic gazes)...


----------



## KingNick

winnipeg said:


> Is it based on any serious study who showed that a small 20km/h could change so much? Or is it just an environmentalist car-o-phobic idea?


http://service.salzburg.gv.at/lkorrj/Index?cmd=detail_ind&nachrid=56869

It works quite well in Salzburg. There was a 5-6 percent reduction due to the variable speed limits last year.


----------



## Verso

I didn't know that interchange was so old; I thought it was from 2006.


----------



## Christian_AT

JackFrost said:


> Its only two 2x1 laned tunnels left on Austrian motorways, both on A9, right?


A9 the 2 sections:
Gleinalm - complete 2019
Klaus ( 4 Tunnels) - complete 2018

A11:
Karawanken - complete 2022

S16:
Arlberg - no twining to less traffic - no upgrade coming, at the moment summer blocking und refurbishment ongoing

Dalaas - no twining - to less traffic
Perjen - complete 2019
--> S16 generall to less traffic, upgrade to 2+2 only like the old one have to be renovated, build the second for keeping the traffic flowing and after it have 2+2


----------



## MichiH

Christian_AT said:


> --> S16 generall to less traffic, upgrade to 2+2 only like the old one have to be renovated, build the second for keeping the traffic flowing and after it have 2+2


Could this happen to Arlberg and Dalaas too? When are their next renovations?


----------



## rudiwien

MichiH said:


> Could this happen to Arlberg and Dalaas too? When are their next renovations?



Regarding *Arlberg*, I have a slight deja-vu 



rudiwien said:


> Regarding the Arlbergtunnel on the S16, currently it is around 8.000 vehicles a day.
> It is an important tunnel mostly for that fact that it guarantees a passage during winter, when the pass is often closed, especially to heavier vehicles. But obvioulsy the AADT doesn't warrant a duplication.
> 
> Also, if there was even the slightes motivation for a duplication, it would have been *now*: due to safety regulations, they are working since last year to improve the escape tunnels, to the railway tunnel. This meant last year a complete closure of the tunnel in summer, and also this summer, closures happen almost daily from 21:00 to 05:00. The money invested in the safety upgrade, plus the loss in toll income, still doesn't seem to be enough to make a duplication feasible.. With this emergency escape upgrades, I also don't think duplication will come in the next decade(s).
> 
> ...



Also, the ASFINAG page regarding the current Arlberg tunnel works (http://www.asfinag.at/arlbergtunnel#Zweite Röhre) states:



> *Warum baut die ASFINAG keine zweite Röhre beim Arlbergtunnel? *
> 
> _Die ASFINAG ist ein rein nutzerfinanziertes Unternehmen und erhält neben den Einnahmen aus Vignetten, Lkw- und Sondermaut keinerlei Zuschüsse aus dem Staatsbudget. Beim Arlbergtunnel werden derzeit rund 8.000 Fahrzeuge pro Tag registriert – auch in der Prognose erreicht diese Strecke nicht den Wert von durchschnittlich 20.000 Fahrzeugen pro Tag (Summe beider Richtungsfahrbahnen). Denn: Erst ab dieser Frequenz ist nach dem Straßentunnelsicherheitsgesetz der Bau einer zweiten Röhre vorgeschrieben. Deswegen investiert die ASFINAG 160 Millionen Euro, um die Sicherheit für täglich 8.000 Autofahrer zu erhöhen. _



Slightly abbreviated translation:


> *Why does Asfinag not build a second tube at the Arlberg?*
> 
> _ASFINAG gets their revenue only from road users (Vignette, truck tolls, special tolls (for tunnels)), and no additional money from the state. Arlbergtunnel has approx 8.000 AADT, and even in forecasts it doesn't reach the mark of 20.000 AADT which would *mandate* a second tube, by regulations of the laws for tunnel safety.
> Therefore, ASFINAG invests 160 million EUR for the current safety upgrade.
> _



I am not sure how much a second tube would cost, but here are the costs of recently finished/ongoing/future duplication of tunnels:
- Bosruck: 280 million EUR, for 5,5 km tunnel and 2km of other road, of which approx 1km bridges
- Gleinalm: 243 million EUR, for approx 8,3 km tunnel, and one really short bridge.
- Karawanken: 310 million EUR, for approx 7,9 km tunnel and one bridge of 350m.

Arlberg has a total length of almost 14km (in actually two separate tunnels, see http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/47.1252/10.2610).
=> So I'd say the cost of 160 million EUR is at most a third of the cost of duplication. If you'd factor in maybe losses for not being able to charge tolls for the two summers of complete closure (2015 and 2017), plus for night closures, this still seems to be too far off to make the duplication financially viable for ASFINAG. I am also not sure whether some of the costs of 160 million EUR are maybe covered by the Railway, as it also improves emergency facilities in the railway tunnel...


For the *Dalaas* tunnel, I could only find in the ASFINAG 2016-2021 framework plan that a renovation and safety improvements are planned for September 2017 - September 2020, for 34,2 million EUR (the tunnel is 2km long), but it doesn't mention a duplication.
Further noteworthy regarding S16 in that framework plan are sections of additional lanes between Bludenz and Dalaas. This currently is 1+1, so parts of it will likely become 2+1.


----------



## MichiH

rudiwien said:


> Regarding *Arlberg*, I have a slight deja-vu


I know that Arlberg tunnel is currently renovated. That's why I was surprised by Christian's statement. Maybe I got him wrong...


----------



## cinxxx

^^I drove there last year in late December. It was open...


----------



## MichiH

^^ It was closed from 21st April to 14th November 2015 and it will be closed from 18th April 2017 to 26th September 2017 (source; click "Zeitplan" radio button on the left).


----------



## rudiwien

^^

Plus this year, several closures in the night from 20.00 to 5.00 next morning; not always, e.g. when there was (fresh) snow on the pass, or other weather circumstances not allowing an easy passage, but otherwise you could constantly hear that in the traffic announcements 

In the upcoming winter season (starting November) till the complete closure 2017, they will also work in the night, but not *completely* closing, just alternatively closing one lane.


----------



## Ices77

*S8*

Hello guys, are there any recent info about S8 Marchfeld Expressway/Marchfeld Schnellstrasse? At least the first section to Gansendorf, thanx.


----------



## MichiH

^^ There's a project page.

If you can't read German: EIA documents were published in March 2016, hearings of objections were in April and May 2016. A final hearing will be in November 2016. Afterwards, EIA could be passed. Constructions work might begin in 2018 and the road might be opened in 2020.

S8 is useless without S1 which also has a project page. The construction of Groß Enzersdorf - Süßenbrunn section might begin in 2017 (to be completed in 2019) but complaints are pending with a court...


----------



## Ices77

^^ I follow the project page, every year, however, the construction start is delayed. I am not saying it is not with some projects in my country as well... . How about adjacent section Gansendorf - A/SK border?


----------



## MichiH

^^ http://www.bmvit.gv.at/verkehr/strasse/autostrasse/s8/



> Mit den Einreichplanungen für den Abschnitt Ost von der Anschlussstelle Obersiebenbrunn/Gänserndorf (L 9) bis zur Staatsgrenze bei Marchegg soll im Anschluss an den Abschnitt West begonnen werden.


The "approval planning procedure" for the eastern section should(!) begin directly after the western section.

I guess it means that planning procedure should begin when all permits for the western section are completed but it could also mean that it should begin after the completion of the western section.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The federal court has rejected the appeals against the construction of the eastern part of S7 from Dobersdorf to the Hungarian border near Heiligenkreuz. It is 13.5 km long and will cost € 145 million.

A verdict is expected this year for the western segment from A2 to Dobersdorf. This part is 14.8 km long. 

http://www.asfinag.at/newsroom?-10071216#ap-inside-view-full


----------



## italystf

https://www.thelocal.at/20161017/rest-areas-on-the-a7-motorway-closed-after-becoming-sex-hotspots
WTF? :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah this has happened in the Netherlands as well. They want to keep the rest areas family-friendly (and not have it littered with used condoms).


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## italystf

If they want clean rest areas, they should provide free toilets, like in Italy. In Austria and Slovenia they charge 0.50€, that must be payed with a 50c coin to be put in a machine, in Hungary it's 200HUF, that it's even more annoying to foreign drivers as they often don't carry Hungarian currency with them.
Litter is an issue too, but nothing is more disgusting to walk across a parking lot scattered with bodily waste in a hot summer day, and then step into your car with dirty shoes.


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## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> If they want clean rest areas, they should provide free toilets, like in Italy. In Austria and Slovenia they charge 0.50€, that must be payed with a 50c coin to be put in a machine, in Hungary it's 200HUF, that it's even more annoying to foreign drivers as they often don't carry Hungarian currency with them.
> Litter is an issue too, but nothing is more disgusting to walk across a parking lot scattered with bodily waste in a hot summer day, and then step into your car with dirty shoes.


That's nonsense. Italian rest areas are always soiled.


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## čarli1

italystf said:


> If they want clean rest areas, they should provide free toilets, like in Italy. In Austria and Slovenia they charge 0.50€, that must be payed with a 50c coin to be put in a machine, *in Hungary it's 200HUF*, that it's even more annoying to foreign drivers as they often don't carry Hungarian currency with them.


One week ago I stopped at one rest area near Sziget and it was for free


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## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> That's nonsense. Italian rest areas are always soiled.


Imagine how would they be if people had to pay for toilet...


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## g.spinoza

italystf said:


> Imagine how would they be if people had to pay for toilet...


Uhm, cleaner?


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## Balkanada

rower2000 said:


> Actually it's the same in Austria. On rest areas which charge for toilet access (usually the larger ones which also include gas stations and restaurants), you get a 0,50 € voucher for the 0,50 € you spent on toilet access. This is valid for one year and can be used on any rest area within Austria.
> 
> The smaller rest areas without a contractor for food and gas, i.e. those maintained by Asfinag itself, do not charge any money for toilet access.


This was the biggest shock for me in Austria

When I had just landed in Vienna, left all my stuff in the hotel room and started exploring the city centre I really needed to use the toilet so I went into some random McDonald's, when I saw some turnstile that would only let me enter if I inserted a 50 cent coin :crazy:

The voucher thing confused me too, I thought it could get me a refund but apparently it could only be used as a discount... so I already bought a sundae just to get myself the 50 cent coin (had no change since I just landed) and didn't even get to reimburse afterwards


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## stickedy

MichiH said:


> I think it costs 70 cent and you can cash 50 cent at the overpriced shops. I'm not sure because I usually go to PWCs or McD restaurants et cetera. I drove a lot on Autobahns in 2015/16 but I think I've only paid 70 cent once and I let the ticket in the machine so that anyone else could cash it at the shop...


Yes, maybe. I don't spend money there also... If it's 100 Cent and 80 Cent or 70 Cent and 50 Cent doesn't matter. Rip-off stays rip-off


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## alesmarv

2 euro for a bathroom and I am pissing on the nearest tree or wall. Out of principal. And I am not young by any stretch of the imagination. Have Austrians become so weak that they just take it and actually pay up instead of just pissing on the wall of the building in protest if nothing else?


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## g.spinoza

alesmarv said:


> 2 euro for a bathroom and I am pissing on the nearest tree or wall. Out of principal. And I am not young by any stretch of the imagination. Have Austrians become so weak that they just take it and actually pay up instead of just pissing on the wall of the building in protest if nothing else?


No. I guess that they are just well-educated.


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## toonczyk

I never knew pissing on walls and stinking up public places could be a matter of civil disobedience.


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## italystf

Some years ago the, now defunct, mapping service norc.ro offered street view service of Vienna. Are those imagery still somewhere else available on the net or have they been fully deleted? I know that any street view service is now illegal under Austrian law, and maybe it's the reason why norc.ro was shut down.


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## winnipeg

rower2000 said:


> Actually it's the same in Austria. On rest areas which charge for toilet access (usually the larger ones which also include gas stations and restaurants), you get a 0,50 € voucher for the 0,50 € you spent on toilet access. This is valid for one year and can be used on any rest area within Austria.
> 
> The smaller rest areas without a contractor for food and gas, i.e. those maintained by Asfinag itself, do not charge any money for toilet access.


I don't understand why they do this and I didn't understood the first time I went in Austria by roads... :bash:

Because in France (and in other countries), they are (in my opinion) smarter, they provide a free access to toilets (which, by the way, probably don't cost that much in cleaning...) and while you came for this natural and evident need, you will purchase other things like coffee or gas or food, etc... This way, it feels way more natural to me! :yes: I hate the Austrian way, having to pay for the basic service and having a voucher who push you to buy something or loosing you money is simply stupid to me... :lol:

But one time, this poor situation pushed me to go outside of the highway to see how gas station were, and I was not disapointed, the gas is WAY WAY cheaper and they offer a free access to toilets, simply incredible :lol: Those austrian highway gas station are a pure stealing in any possible way... :lol: :nuts:


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## ChrisZwolle

The A3 extension to Hungary is coming into play again: http://www.heute.at/freizeit/motor/A3-soll-bis-Ungarn-verlaengert-werden;art23669,1364115

For what it's worth, the poll by Heute.at has an 83% 'yes' vote for the motorway extension.


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## rheintram

About this toilet thing: On ASFINAG rest areas it's obviously free. However, there are many rest areas that are operated by private companies (Rosenberger or OMV etc.). For years these private subcontractors have lobbied for being allowed to charge for toilet use. Then some even started to introduce it, which led to criticism by ASFINAG, touring clubs etc. ASFINAG even considered taking the matter to court but apparently their contracts didn't have any clause or provision for the matter so they feared they might lose. In the end an agreement was found: The voucher system. These vouchers are valid in ANY rest area and are valid for a year.


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A5:* Poysbrunn – Schrick 25km (April 2015 to Late 2017) – project – map





> "Der Bau geht zügig voran und es wird mit Volldampf gearbeitet, damit die Eröffnung der A 5 im Dezember 2017 stattfindet"


The construction is proceeding well and they work hard so that A5 opening will take place in December 2017.

http://www.asfinag.at/newsroom/pres...-–-der-neubau-geht-mit-großen-schritten-voran


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## rudiwien

^^

Regarding the A5 extension, in the lack of other up-to-date photos, a few photos collected from various press releases & articles in the last few months:

- Map overview of the section by ASFINAG









- Interchange at Walterskirchen, here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/48.6520/16.6945








(Photo: Kurier)

- Bridge of the relocated B7, on the lower-left part the works on the motorway, north of Schrick: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/48.5303/16.6296








(Photo: ORF/ASFINAG)

- Bridge at the Wilfersdorf Süd interchange, a rather old image, though, traffic is going over that bridge since several months: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/48.5628/16.6353









- In late summer, they found the fossils of tusks of a giant mammoth:








(Photo: ASFINAG)

- A few images from June 2016, from the section between Wilfersdorf and Walterskirchen: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/48.6334/16.6819
























(Photos: NÖN)


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## Ices77

Countdown to new Marchfeld expressway:
https://www.w24.at/Nachrichten/247918

S8 construction start could in 2019 begin. Actualised info on ASFINAG page: http://www.asfinag.at/unterwegs/bau...ße-knoten-s-1-s-8-ganserndorf-obersiebenbrunn


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## italystf

Ices77 said:


> Countdown to new Marchfeld expressway:
> https://www.w24.at/Nachrichten/247918
> 
> S8 construction start could in 2019 begin. Actualised info on ASFINAG page: http://www.asfinag.at/unterwegs/bau...ße-knoten-s-1-s-8-ganserndorf-obersiebenbrunn


Will it be a second motorway link between Vienna and Bratislava?


----------



## Ices77

italystf said:


> Will it be a second motorway link between Vienna and Bratislava?


It most probably will, however, construction start of the first part of S8 is a perequisite as well as construction continuation of the second Vienna ring up to the north. Nevertheless, county Niederosterreich financed already part of the study of S8. Bratislavský kraj county also could be more initiative to find out at least temporary solution to the road connection between these cities north of Danube. Bridge across March/Morava river as part of the future expressway connecting roads of both countries could be one of the solutions.


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## rudiwien

Sorry to break your enthusiasms, but hold your horses a little while 

First, the news report you quote here is from August, and it just says that the ASFINAG (the motorway operating company) has finished their planning.

Meanwhile, the environmental approval (Umweltverträglichkeitsprüfung, UVP) hearing has still been ongoing, there have been several additional hearings, because more information has been requested from ASFINAG. See e.g. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=137055089&postcount=99 for a report (in German).

So it might take a few more months for the UVP verdict to be published. Assuming the environmental approval is given, you can bet on an appeal being filed - and that can take easily up to another year. I have seen a few that took >= 1.5 years (though recently one appeal was rejected after "just" 6 months). So given previous experiences, this procedure could easily last well into 2018.
Once the appeal would be rejected, you still need a few more permissions to be granted, though they are normally not that an obstacle once the UVP is legal.
If all that goes well, 2019 is a *potential* (but rather optimistic) start.

But around 3 years ago, ASFINAG was quoting "2nd half 2014 on their page", and even that was a deadline pushed back a few times already. So, I wouldn't take an update on the ASFINAG website to 2019 for a realistic term just yet..


Secondly, all the planning is only for around half the way to the border, to "Obersiebenbrunn", see the map below:








There is no indicative route, detailed planning, timeframe, or financial commitment for the second part.


Finally, yes, as mentioned by Ices, for the S8 to be connected to any other motorway on the existing network, also the S1, the "outer ring motor/expressway" around Vienna, needs to be continued, and the piece in question that is required also contains the (in)famous Lobau-tunnel under the Danube wetlands national park - see the map below:









There is already an UVP issued for that part since March 2015, but it is contested, and there is no verdict yet. Also, there is (again!) political talk about it, because the green party which is in the coalition in Vienna is opposing the tunnel, and they'd like an alternative Danube crossing (likely a bride) - but that then does not connect towards the S8, but rather to the A23/A222 interchange "Kaisermühlen" in Vienna (in the image above, just visible on the left edge as "Knoten Kaisermühlen").

In this case, even if S8 still gets build, you likely a new environmental approval for the section that would be "taken over" from the S1 plans.. That can take many years as well...


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## Negjana

Nobody needs this stupid road!!! :bash:

There are 2 perfectly straight railways in the region that have a lot of potential for additional services and increased frequencies! But the southern one, which is the shortest connection between Vienna and Bratislava by rail, still hasn't been modernized and improved since the fall of communism! :bash:


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## italystf

Negjana said:


> Nobody needs this stupid road!!! :bash:
> 
> There are 2 perfectly straight railways in the region that have a lot of potential for additional services and increased frequencies! But the southern one, which is the shortest connection between Vienna and Bratislava by rail, still hasn't been modernized and improved since the fall of communism! :bash:


Roads and railways aren't mutually exclusive.


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## Negjana

Of course not, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to build a commuting motorway and then expect numbers to rise on the shitty railway...........


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## Ices77

Before possibly another green, or railway enthusiast tries to bash road, motorways projects, well maybe it is up to moderation team to decide, let me answer rudi´s post.

These detailed facts are good information. Generally roads and motorway in densely urbanised areas are much more complicated when it comes to approvals. With strong green lobby in city government thumbs up so that at least the part of motorway/expressway projects will get their construction started. Also in Bratislava, regarding D4, the nearer the city center, the more approval problems usually. 

I think, however that section Gansendorf - SK border has at least a kind of technical study and the route is more or less fixed. But ASFINAG also does not have leaflet information for this section, so it seems it is really a long term issue.


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## Negjana

I'm not a environmentalist, for your info.

Projects like the Nord Autobahn are extremely senseful and important. But the S8 is just a waste of money, you do not need motorways for commuters. And I don't believe it will do a good job of relieving the cities along the B8.

But go on, discredit me and call me a green if you prefer that, I don't care.


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## Christian_AT

Eulanthe said:


> Good, I'm looking forward to many years of arguments ahead with those fools!
> 
> Still, with yet another country moving to an e-vignette system, I really wish the EU would put their foot down and insist on a system that is more suited to the needs of car users. Take the typical Polish driver going to Croatia - I need to pay for vignettes for CZ, A and SLO, which for a two week holiday effectively means 2xA+SLO (about 35 Euro) and 1xCZ (monthly - about 20 Euro), then another 65 Euro in Croatia on tolls. 100 Euro in tolls between Wroclaw and Dubrovnik is way too much :/


for me it is funny why you use the austria topic, in this example austria is the cheapest country per km you have to pass (cheaper than some countries with distance pricing)

if you want to save money don't use the slovenia motorway, pay 2x15 Euro for 2x45km motorway, a little bit expensive

if you want to save more, think to dont use the motorway in CZ, why it is simple you have to made a detour to katovice, use direct local roads is shorter and not so much slower, save cz-vignette and save fuel
(local area Brünn/Brno motorway is free to use)


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## General Maximus

Try France...


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## Negjana

Why do people think cheap or free motorways are some sort of human right? :bash:


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## JackFrost

^^That you could say for anything else either not just motorways. "Cheap" is the magic word.


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## MichiH

Austrian vignette (or generally all vignettes) is VERY CHEAP if you are used to drive long distances many times per year compared to driving in Italy or France. It's VERY EXPENSIVE if you only drive a short distance, e.g. from a border crossing to the next exit, just once or twice per year, e.g. on vacation.


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## JackFrost

Not only for short distances. Tarvisio-Florence-Tarvisio cost me 75 EUR last year. Ridicolous.


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## ChrisZwolle

Vignettes are - on average - more expensive for foreigners. They pay a substantially higher share of revenue than the share of kilometers traveled by them. 

In Germany, foreign passenger cars make up 5% of the kilometers traveled but are forecasted to pay some 25% of the gross vignette revenue.


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## Christian_AT

ChrisZwolle said:


> Vignettes are - on average - more expensive for foreigners. They pay a substantially higher share of revenue than the share of kilometers traveled by them.
> 
> In Germany, foreign passenger cars make up 5% of the kilometers traveled but are forecasted to pay some 25% of the gross vignette revenue.


forget germany, only a nationalist party which wants to create the feeling of a victory, reality is their new promise is AFTER the next election, if you look at the numbers every normal person knows that this system will generate a loss of money for the country

and no system will be fair at the end, every system has its advantage and disadvantages, the advantage from the austria system is that we had 20 years ago ugly motorways with this company solution (minimized politic influence) and self funding (vignette + truck toll) the motorways improve every year and now they are in a good condition


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## MichiH

^^^^ It's not a German or Austrian issue but a general issue with vignettes.


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## ChrisZwolle

Yes, it's the same in Switzerland: foreign motorists drive 9.5% of all kilometers but pay 36% of vignette revenue.


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## rudiwien

MichiH said:


> Austrian vignette (or generally all vignettes) is VERY CHEAP if you are used to drive long distances many times per year compared to driving in Italy or France. It's VERY EXPENSIVE if you only drive a short distance, e.g. from a border crossing to the next exit, just once or twice per year, e.g. on vacation.



Of course, if you go for 10-15km on the motorway because your destination is very close to the border, the price is not great. And then you'd rather prefer to be charged for actual usage.

But in fact, I think the annual price of the Vignette in Austria is ridiculously cheap, especially if compared to e.g. Slovenia (of course, Switzerland is even cheaper for an annual ticket..)

Also, Austria is offers a 10 day Vignette, which is great for trips including two-weekends, and that costs only 8.9€ - compared to 15€ for a 7 day vignette in Slovenia!



ChrisZwolle said:


> Yes, it's the same in Switzerland: foreign motorists drive 9.5% of all kilometers but pay 36% of vignette revenue.


As Switzerland doesn't have any of these short-term stickers, it is quite logical that the foreigners contribute a lot to the vignette revenues...


I am not a very high-frequency motorway user, but in any case, I do prefer the vignette system over to what you see e.g. in Portugal, where in the last years, people revert to going back to national roads, because the newly introduced motorway prices are per km, and just too high.. That is just wrong from road safety, relieving local residents, and also likely environmental aspects.


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## ChrisZwolle

I think vignettes are basically a substitute for a road tax, and not to fund infrastructure directly. With Asfinag, the truck tolls provide almost ¾ of all toll revenue. 

Vignettes as a system to fund roads is inadequate. The revenue from vignettes alone is insufficient to pay for motorways. I think this is why Switzerland has more trouble with road funding than Austria, as in Switzerland, the truck toll revenue is not spent on the national roads, while in Austria all toll revenue flows to Asfinag.


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## Christian_AT

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think vignettes are basically a substitute for a road tax, and not to fund infrastructure directly. With Asfinag, the truck tolls provide almost ¾ of all toll revenue.


no it is more 2/3

numbers of 2015:

about 606 millions from cars

about 1252 millions from trucks


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ That's true. Though the vignettes itself produce only around a quarter of revenue, the balance is made up by the 'Sondermautstrecken'.


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## Negjana

Christian_AT said:


> and no system will be fair at the end, every system has its advantage and disadvantages,


What is the disadvantage of a system like the Italian one? Other than it not being ridiculously cheap? And, how is a system like that not fair? The more you drive, the more you pay = extremely fair IMO.


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## Kemo

Negjana said:


> What is the disadvantage of a system like the Italian one? Other than it not being ridiculously cheap? And, how is a system like that not fair? The more you drive, the more you pay = extremely fair IMO.


Large, expensive interchanges with toll stations that generate traffic jams. But we have gone offtopic...


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## Negjana

Last OT: We're in 2017, nobody needs toll stations to collect tolls per kilometer.........


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## Attus

The main issue of vignette systems ist that you can't really use the freedom of travel because a short detour or even a shorter way wich leads through another country may be very expensive. 
OK, especially in Austria it is not really an issue but imagine Genk - Aachen if the Netherlands had a vignette system... Sometimes I had the idea to drive from Vienna to Budapest through Slovakia, but you need a vignette there, € 10 for 12 kilometers. No way. 
The German toll (IF it will be introduced) may make the route Salzburg - Kufstein ridiculously expensive for Austrian motorist if they have a 10+ years old car - and no one of them would be happy knowing that for that price they could even drive to Wilhelmshaven. I wonder how many Austrians will take the route via Zell am See or St. Johann.


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## g.spinoza

Negjana said:


> What is the disadvantage of a system like the Italian one? Other than it not being ridiculously cheap? And, how is a system like that not fair? The more you drive, the more you pay = extremely fair IMO.


It seems fair, but look at the mobile telephone fares: everybody's getting a flat farem instead of those "pay-per-use" like in the early 2000s.


----------



## satanism

Attus said:


> Sometimes I had the idea to drive from Vienna to Budapest through Slovakia, but you need a vignette there, € 10 for 12 kilometers. No way.


That's easy...you exit A4 at Kittsee, follow the 50, then you take the 1020 to Jarovce, Rusovce and you rejoin M15 at Rajka... total cost:0 Eur...total delay, maybe 5 minutes, compared to the motorway.
Also much better option if you want to avoid x-amount of hours waiting to enter Austria, from Hungary, on a let's say...Sunday afternoon


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## rudiwien

Short update on motorway construction projects in Austria:

- S36 Murtal Schnellstrasse, after a one-year hiatus because of issues with expropirations, construction of the tunnel under the town of "Unzmarkt" and neighbouring sections has been awarded, and construction will commence in March, with an estimated completion at the end of 2020. For details, see the ASFINAG project page http://www.asfinag.at/unterwegs/bau...llstraße-st-georgen-ob-judenburg-–-scheifling (German language only)

- Still S36, for the section between Judenburg (current end) and St. Georgen (where the opened the tunnel under the town end of 2015), the preferred route has been selected. It basically follows the current national road, and will include three tunnels under villages/towns. Earlier plans had proposed a new route north of the river Mur, but that was abandoned. ASFINAG page with a video: http://www.asfinag.at/unterwegs/bau...hnellstraße-judenburg-st-georgen-ob-judenburg

- On S7, Fürstenfelder Schnellstraße, which will connect A2 with Hungary, after some political publicity stunt before provincial elections claiming a "start" in construction in 2015 (when in fact an existing bridge on the A2 was renovated and widened), things start to get real. For the western section, preparations for the construction site are under way, and tendering is expected to commence in spring. Construction should then start in autumn 2017. For the eastern section, this expected in 2019, and both sections should be complete in 2022 (the western section contains some tunnelling to bypass towns, but still, the plan is not very ambitious...)
ASFINAG page: http://www.asfinag.at/unterwegs/bau...gersdorf-a-2-–-staatsgrenze-bei-heiligenkreuz


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## keber

At such NIMBY's attitude in Austria it is really interesting that new motorway goes directly through villages, even if they are in tunnels.


----------



## italystf

I wonder if the current Green government would have any impact in suspending important infrastructure projects.


----------



## celevac

italystf said:


> I wonder if the current Green government would have any impact in suspending important infrastructure projects.


Which Green government ???


----------



## italystf

celevac said:


> Which Green government ???


Sorry, I just realized that in Austria only the president of republic (Van der Bellen) is Green. The Chancellor Kern is from Social-democratic party.


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## rudiwien

keber said:


> At such NIMBY's attitude in Austria it is really interesting that new motorway goes directly through villages, even if they are in tunnels.



Well, there really is not too much space in that valley, see https://www.google.at/maps/place/87...d27813103da85111!8m2!3d47.206!4d14.4984?hl=de for the newly presented route, and especially Unzmarkt at https://www.google.at/maps/place/87...d27813103da85111!8m2!3d47.206!4d14.4984?hl=de for where they are going to work in a couple of months.

Currently, the national road goes already directly through the villages. Tunnelling under them is thus a quite big improvement, especially for those in the center of the village (maybe not so much for those close to the tunnel portals, as they will encounter cars with higher speeds than before on the national road.

Therefore, I think locals are rather happy with this solution, rather than having an above-ground motorway passing by between the edge of the towns/villages and either the river Mur or the mountains..
It is also the more expensive solution, and I don't think it would have been proposed if there were cheaper options that would be accepted by the population.


----------



## cinxxx

I have a question. If coming from Garmisch-Partenkirchen (DE) what would be the best route to take to avoid the vignette (A12) but still use the A13 (Brennerautobahn)? I'm guessing one can lose some time in Innsbruck...


----------



## g.spinoza

cinxxx said:


> I have a question. If coming from Garmisch-Partenkirchen (DE) what would be the best route to take to avoid the vignette (A12) but still use the A13 (Brennerautobahn)? I'm guessing one can lose some time in Innsbruck...


https://www.google.it/maps/dir/Garm...0x479d6be08dbc6c0b:0x6efb31b44486975b!1m0!3e0
I did that all the time when I was living in Munich. Inside Innsbruck you don't lose a lot of time, if I remember correctly there is only one longer traffic light.

Then you can enter A13 at Innsbruck Süd, from there you don't need the vignette.


----------



## OulaL

cinxxx said:


> I have a question. If coming from Garmisch-Partenkirchen (DE) what would be the best route to take to avoid the vignette (A12) but still use the A13 (Brennerautobahn)? I'm guessing one can lose some time in Innsbruck...


https://www.google.fi/maps/dir/47.4...0x479d6be08dbc6c0b:0x6efb31b44486975b!1m0!3e0

EDIT: g.spinoza was faster...


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## nwn1001

*Asfinag projects 2017*

Press release (german only)


> *ASFINAG INVESTIERT 2017 MEHR ALS EINE MILLIARDE EURO*
> 
> *1,2 Milliarden Euro investiert die ASFINAG heuer in Autobahnen und Schnellstraßen und garantiert damit auch in Zukunft höchste Leistungsfähigkeit des Netzes und ein Höchstmaß an Verkehrssicherheit. Davon gehen 530 Millionen in den Neubau von Strecken und zweiten Tunnelröhren, 470 Millionen fließen in die Erneuerung bestehender Straßen und Tunnel. Neben „klassischen" Baumaßnahmen sind weitere 200 Millionen Euro unter anderem für die Neuerrichtung eines topmodernen Lkw-Mautsystems reserviert.*
> *Start neuer Bauvorhaben sowie Verkehrsfreigaben 2017*
> Mit dem Baubeginn der S 3 Weinviertler, S 7 Fürstenfelder und der Weiterführung der S 36 Murtal Schnellstraße nimmt der Streckenneubau Fahrt auf.
> *S 3 Weinviertler Schnellstraße*
> Im Sommer soll der Bau des elf Kilometer langen *S 3-Abschnittes zwischen Hollabrunn und Guntersdorf* beginnen. Drei zentrale Ziele sind mit der S 3 verbunden: Kürzere Wege für die Pendlerinnen und Pendler, mehr Verkehrssicherheit und höhere Lebensqualität für 14.000 Anrainerinnen und Anrainer. Geplante Verkehrsfreigabe: 2019/2020. Investition: 132 Millionen Euro.
> *S 7 Fürstenfelder Schnellstraße*
> Für die knapp 15 Kilometer lange *S 7 im Abschnitt West zwischen Riegersdorf und Dobersdorf* sind die Bescheide aus der Umweltverträglichkeits-Prüfung (UVP) und den nachgelagerten Genehmigungsverfahren rechtskräftig. Im Herbst beginnen die Hauptbauarbeiten. Allein durch die Errichtung des ersten Abschnitts der S 7 entlastet die ASFINAG künftig mehr als 10.000 Menschen in den Gemeinden vom Durchzugsverkehr. Geplante Verkehrsfreigabe: 2022. Investition: 485 Millionen Euro.
> *S 36 Murtal Schnellstraße*
> Ab März nimmt die ASFINAG den zweiten Schritt zum Ausbau der*S 36 zwischen St. Georgen ob Judenburg und Scheifling* in Angriff. Bis zum Herbst 2020 werden insgesamt sechs Kilometer neu gebaut beziehungsweise die bestehende Bundesstraße auf das Sicherheitsniveau einer Schnellstraße ausgebaut. Das Herzstück ist dabei die fast einen Kilometer lange Unterflurtrasse Unzmarkt, die den Menschen künftig mehr Lebensqualität und Allen mehr Verkehrssicherheit bringen wird. Geplante Verkehrsfreigabe: 2020. Investition: 158 Millionen Euro.
> *A 5 Nord Autobahn*
> Ganz im Plan liegt der Weiterbau der* A 5 im Abschnitt Nord (Schrick – Poysbrunn).* Die neue 25 Kilometer lange Strecke bringt rund 10.000 Anrainerinnen und Anrainer der B 7 Brünner Straße und den zahlreichen Pendlern der Region große Vorteile. Geplante Verkehrsfreigabe: Dezember 2017. Investition: 283 Millionen Euro, exklusive 21 Millionen Euro Drittfinanzierung durch die EU.
> *A 10 Tauern Autobahn*
> Für den Verkehr freigegeben wird heuer auch die *Umweltentlastungsmaßnahme Zederhaus* an der A 10. Rund 1.200 Anrainerinnen und Anrainer erfahren damit optimalen Lärmschutz und eine wesentliche Verbesserung ihrer Lebensqualität. Geplante Verkehrsfreigabe: März 2017. Investition: 69 Millionen Euro.
> *Bau zweiter Tunnelröhren und Sanierung bestehender Anlagen*
> In die *Erweiterung von Tunnelanlagen gehen heuer in Summe 148 Millionen Euro. *Der zweiröhrige Ausbau bringt ein Ende des Gegenverkehrs und somit ein deutliches Mehr an Verkehrssicherheit.
> *A 9 Pyhrn Autobahn in Oberösterreich*
> An der A 9 bei Klaus gibt die ASFINAG heuer die zweiten Röhren der*Tunnelkette Klaus* für den Verkehr frei*: Spering-, Falkenstein-, Klauser- und Traunfriedtunnel *werden bis Ende 2018 zweiröhrig ausgebaut. Geplante Fertigstellung der neuen Röhren: Herbst 2017. Dann beginnt die Erneuerung der bestehenden Röhren. Geplante Gesamtfertigstellung: 2018. Investition: 180 Millionen Euro.
> *A 9 Pyhrn Autobahn in der Steiermark*
> Bereits im Juli erfolgt die Freigabe der neuen Röhre für den acht Kilometer langen *Gleinalmtunnel an der A 9**. *Anschließend wird die bestehende Röhre saniert und somit die letzte „Engstelle" an der Pyhrnachse beseitigt. Geplante Gesamtfertigstellung: 2019. Investition: 260 Millionen Euro.
> *S 16 Arlberg Schnellstraße*
> Ebenfalls zweiröhrig ausgebaut wird der *Tiroler Perjentunel *an der S 16. Aktuell ist die Hälfte der Vortriebsarbeiten in den Berg abgeschlossen. Ende 2018 ist die Freigabe der neuen Röhre vorgesehen. Im Anschluss daran wird die Bestandsröhre saniert und sicherheittechnisch aufgerüstet. Geplante Gesamtfertigstellung: Dezember 2019. Investition: 130 Millionen Euro.
> In die *Erhaltung und sicherheitstechnische Modernisierung bestehender Tunnel fließen heuer 171 Millionen Euro.*
> *S 16 Arlberg Schnellstraße*
> Aktuell laufen die Arbeiten zur Sanierung und Verbesserung der Sicherheitseinrichtungen im Arlbergtunnel- mit 14 Kilometern der längste Straßentunnel Österreichs. 120 Millionen Euro investierte die ASFINAG bisher in Maßnahmen wie etwa die Errichtung 37 zusätzlicher Fluchtwege und acht zusätzlicher Pannenbuchten. Weitere 40 Millionen Euro sind noch bis zum Abschluss der Bauarbeiten vorgesehen. Der Tunnel verfügt dann unter anderem über eine Sprühnebel-Anlage zur Brandbekämpfung. Weitere Besonderheiten in Sachen Sicherheitstechnik und Innovation sind ein sogenannter Thermoscanner oder das akustische Frühwarnsystem AKUT. *Von* *24. April bis 2. Oktober ist eine erneute Vollsperre des Tunnels zwischen Tirol und Vorarlberg unumgänglich, *da in dieser Zeit die Sicherheitssysteme nicht zur Verfügung stehen*. *Der Arlbergpass ist dann wieder die regionale Ausweichroute.
> *A 22 Donauufer Autobahn*
> Ohne wesentliche Verkehrsbehinderungen wird an der A 22 Donauufer Autobahn die technische Aufrüstung des*Tunnels Kaisermühlen* fortgeführt. Der Tunnel erhält dabei unter anderem eine gänzlich neue Lüftung sowie das Sicherheitssystem AKUT. Geplante Fertigstellung: Sommer 2018. Investition: 90 Millionen Euro (davon Kostenbeteiligung Stadt Wien: 41 Millionen Euro).
> *A 23 Südost Tangente*
> In Wien werden bis Herbst 2017 alle Sicherheitseinrichtungen in den *Tunneln Stadlau und Hirschstetten** an der A 23 *erneuert und brandschutztechnisch auf den letzten Stand der Technik gebracht. Geplante Fertigstellung: Herbst 2017. Investition: 43 Millionen Euro.
> *Insgesamt fließen heuer rund 320 Millionen Euro in insgesamt 30 Tunnelsicherheitsprojekte.*
> *Generalerneuerungen und große Sanierungen 2017*
> *A 23 Südost Tangente*
> Vier Sanierungsprojekte führt die ASFINAG 2017 auf der A 23 in Wien fort:* Die Instandsetzung der** Praterbrücke**, den Neubau der **Hochstraße Inzersdorf**, die Sanierung des **Knoten Inzersdorf** sowie des Abschnitts *zwischen *Stadlau und Hirschstetten*. Inklusive der Modernisierung des *Kaisermühlentunnels* investiert die ASFINAG bis 2018 über 400 Millionen Euro in mehr Kapazitäten und Verkehrssicherheit im Raum Wien.
> *A 1 West Autobahn*
> Mehr Kapazitäten und Sicherheit bringt die Generalerneuerung wischen *Matzleinsdorf und Pöchlarn* auf der A 1 in Niederösterreich. Hier wird der letzte zweispurige Abschnitt der A 1 für die Lenkerinnen und Lenker dreispurig ausgebaut Heuer laufen die Arbeiten voll an. Zwischen Steinhäusl vor Wien und dem Voralpenkreuz in Oberösterreich ist somit ab 2018 die gesamte West Autobahn verbreitert. Investition Matzleinsdorf - Pöchlarn: 33 Millionen Euro.
> *A 2 Süd Autobahn*
> Bereits seit 2016 wird die *A 2 zwischen **Wiener Neustadt und Seebenstein* saniert. Die Erneuerung der Richtungsfahrbahn Wien wurde bereits abgeschlossen. Ab dem Frühjahr 2017 läuft die Sanierung Richtung Graz. Geplante Fertigstellung: Ende 2017. Investition: 25 Millionen Euro.
> *A 4 Ost Autobahn*
> An der *A 4* erfolgt die *Generalerneuerung vom **Knoten Schwechat bis zur Anschlussstelle Flughafen**. *Diese Sanierung bringt nach Fertigstellung mehr Fahrkomfort und Sicherheit für täglich rund 100.000 Autofahrerinnen und Fahrer. Geplante Fertigstellung: Ende 2017. Investition: 18 Millionen Euro.
> *A 8 Innkreis Autobahn*
> Ein entscheidendes Projekt für mehr Verkehrssicherheit findet in Oberösterreich den Abschluss: Die *Verbreiterung der A 8 zwischen **Haag und Ried im Innkreis**. *Im Zuge des Sicherheitsausbaus erhält dieser elf Kilometer lange Abschnitt auf der A 8 einen vollwertigen Pannenstreifen - eine wesentliche Verbesserung hinsichtlich Verkehrssicherheit. Geplante Fertigstellung: Sommer 2017. Investition: 43 Millionen Euro.
> *Technologie-Investition: 2017 bringt Umstellung auf neue Mauttechnik*
> Heuer erneuert die ASFINAG das elektronische Lkw- und Bus-Mautsystem für Fahrzeuge über 3,5 Tonnen Gesamtgewicht. Das bedeutet, dass die Maut- und Kontrollstationen am Autobahnen- und Schnellstraßennetz umgerüstet werden. Der ASFINAG ist es besonders wichtig, dass die Verkehrsteilnehmer möglichst wenig davon spüren. Für die mehr als eine Million Kunden des GO Mautsystems bleibt der Wechsel auf das neue System zudem ohne spürbare Auswirkungen. Die Umstellung wird Anfang 2018 abgeschlossen sein. Geplant ist ein Betrieb für die nächsten zehn Jahre samt einer Verlängerungsoption um weitere fünf Jahre.
> *Langlebige Infrastruktur durch Ausbau des Bestbieterprinzips*
> Entscheidend für einen Bau-Zuschlag ist bei der ASFINAG seit 2015 nicht mehr nur der Preis, es wurden dafür auch Qualitäts-Kriterien – darunter etwa längere Gewährleistung, kürzere Baudauer, hoher Facharbeiteranteil – definiert. Erfüllt ein Unternehmen eines oder mehrere dieser Kriterien kann es auch zu einem höheren Preis anbieten. Die ASFINAG stockte die bislang bei Vergaben zur Anwendung kommenden 18 Qualitätskriterien mit Jänner 2017 auf 31 auf. Bisher lag ein Fokus auf Bauqualität. Künftig haben bei den Vergaben auch Unternehmen ein Plus, wenn sie ältere Personen und Lehrlinge beschäftigen oder auf eine besonders umweltfreundliche Bauweise setzen.
> *S 1 und A 26: Neubauvorhaben im Genehmigungsprozess*
> Die *S 1 Wiener Außenring Schnellstraße** zwischen Schwechat und Süßenbrunn mit dem Lobautunnel* schließt die Umfahrung der Bundeshauptstadt und entlastet Tangente, das Marchfeld sowie den 22. Wiener Gemeindebezirk vom Verkehr. Der UVP Bescheid ist aktuell vor dem zuständigen Bundesverwaltungs-Gericht beeinsprucht. Abhängig von der Dauer des Verfahrens strebt die ASFINAG einen Baubeginn 2018 an. Investition: 1,9 Milliarden Euro.
> Bei der *A 26 Linzer Autobahn* sind der UVP-Bescheid sowie die durch Land Oberösterreich und Stadt Linz erlassenen Bescheide für Wasserrecht und Naturschutz beeinsprucht. Das Ziel der ASFINAG ist, unmittelbar nach Rechtskraft der Bescheide den Bau für die Umfahrung der Landeshauptstadt auszuschreiben. Der Start zur Umsetzung der ersten Etappe – die neue Donaubrücke – soll 2018 erfolgen. Investition: 645 Millionen Euro inklusive Anteil Dritter von 93 Millionen Euro.


Source: asfinag.at/unterwegs/bauen
Map: asfinag.at/documents/10180/10083945/Grafik+IIP+2017+%C3%96sterreichkarte/c172c1b6-d2fb-4a18-81df-cef581367572


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## bogdymol

Some interesting roadsigns in Austria:




























You can find this artwork inside a roundabout at A22 Stokerau-Ost exit.


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## threo2k

bogdymol said:


> Some interesting roadsigns in Austria:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> You can find this artwork inside a roundabout at A22 Stokerau-Ost exit.



Have these signs ever been used in real life?


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## ChrisZwolle

Beijing and Taipei with the same country code 'RC'


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## bogdymol

^^ The Communist Party of China approves this post.



threo2k said:


> Have these signs ever been used in real life?


I think there was no need to point the driving directions to New York, Beijing or Caracas on a motorway in Austria. There are people making an around the world road trip, but usually they know which direction China is...


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## kreden

bogdymol said:


> ^^ The Communist Party of China approves this post.


I think Taiwan might enjoy it more, since the code is RC (Republic of China).


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## bogdymol

The ground-breaking ceremony for the extension of S36 at Unzmarkt-Frauenburg happened this week:









source: ASFiNAG on Facebook


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## Negjana

These groundbreaking ceremonies are such a stupid waste of money. :bash:


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## Luki_SL

^^These people are in work during the ground-breaking ceremony


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## rheintram

From November 2017 on a "digital" vignette will be available. Meaning you'll be able to register your car's license plate and it will automatically recognize that you paid the toll.

important detail: you'll have to register/pay 18 days in advance, due to online sales laws, which allow you to return items you bought online within 14 (longer if you cancel by post hence 18 days).

some info in German: http://oesterreich.orf.at/stories/2833679/


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## ChrisZwolle

Geez, that kind of makes the whole system useless for people who decide on a trip to or through Austria shortly before going.


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## rudiwien

^^

Well, there aren't many news regarding A5 itself, all is set to be opened December 2017. I haven't passed by in some months... but might go by relatively soon.

In the meantime, I found some pictures published by the consortium building the last lot ("Baulos 5" in the map below) from Walterskirchen including the Poysbrunn interchange (http://hochtief.at/projekte/a5-nordweinviertel-autobahn-abschnitt-4-noe).

From mid-March 2017:














































From mid-January 2017:




































Shows really good progress on the structures in these two months, especially considering that this lot was the last one that started work.

There are also older pictures from 2016 showing earthworks etc. at that website (http://hochtief.at/projekte/a5-nordweinviertel-autobahn-abschnitt-4-noe)

--

Related news, but no so positive, are from the Drasenhofen bypass, which is the last village before the border, and thus the final bottleneck, see the map:



This will be built as a single-carriageway, until demand increases. Due to this decision a few years back to not build it as motorway standard, they had to restart some of the approval procedures. 
Initially, they wanted to open the bypass in 2018, now it is likely they could start construction end of this year (still some approvals to be confirmed in court), and finish in the second half of 2019.


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## Ices77

*B50*

I got a inquiry, guys, whether there will be any continuation of bypasses on Bundesstrasse B50. Schutzen am Gebirge bypass has been opened lately, but I did not find any information about the continuation of bypasses construction along B 50. 

I think even in 1973, in approved Bundesverkehrsplan the plan was even to have motorway, or expressway along Neusiedler See up to SVK border, Neusiedlerschnellstrasse? As of 2017 from these route there are just five village bypasses missing: Jois, Winden am See, Breitenbrunn, Purbach and Donnerskirchen. Other parts were covered by A6, A4, B50 and S31 up to A2.
I mean this route will even more facilitate the transport from SVK, or Poland to southern Austria, SLO, CRO, or Italy. Current route A6/A4/S1/A2 is not a bad option, but a little longer, than route along Neusielder See, which I sometimes use, when travelling to southern Austria, or Italy.


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## rudiwien

*B50*

Short answer ad B50: I don't think so in the near/medium future, I didn't hear anything, and the example of Schützen am Gebirge is rather a deterrent...

- Initial plans indeed were for a "Neusiedler See Autobahn", but they realised at some point that they don't want a transit corridor along there.
- Later it was planned to extend the S31 from Eisenstadt Ost to Schützen am Gebirge, likely as a 2+2 road.
- Instead around 2010, this was changed to just the bypass road, which opened 2014. 
- But, there are/were some issues with this road. The state of Burgenland decided that now environmental impact assessment is needed for the bypass road; but they didn't inform land-owns on that decision, which therefore had no possibility to object against that. Subsequently, a number of land owners sued against expropriation. Their appeal was successful, so in 2016 the land was rightfully returned to them, and there were even fears that the road needs to be demolished.. (also, the permits required according to water law were revoked in court).

Just recently they got a settlement (for an undisclosed sum, though), and as a consequence of that agreement, likely the speed limit will change to 70.

(also in the south of S31, the extension was converted to a 1+1 bypass road, from Oberpullendorf to (close to the) border near Köszeg, see http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4472941#map=11/47.4648/16.6484)


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## SRC_100

Some shots of A1 widening (2x2-->2x3) b/n Wien and Linz I made cca. 2 months ago but forgot:nuts:


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## rudiwien

Some pictures from the construction along the S36 in and around Unzmarkt (Source: http://www.kleinezeitung.at/steiermark/murtal/5199447/Baustelle_Ausbau-der-S-36).

The major piece of work is the tunnel unter the town of Unzmarkt, similar to the tunnel under St. Georgen (see this post for a video: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=133968385&postcount=4115), which was completed ~1.5 years ago, and relocation of the river "Mur" for ~500 meters.
Project details (in German) here: http://www.asfinag.at/unterwegs/bau...-scheifling?p_o_p_id=56_INSTANCE_j7blkptlhsV5, for the route, see http://www.asfinag.at/documents/101...heifling/3196efda-808c-4b5c-b2b6-b273e88e4d4b


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## rudiwien

Mostly politicians (and other important people) to be seen in the picture, but - asphalting works on A5 Nordautobahn Schrick-Poysbrunn are under way!










Article in German: http://www.noen.at/mistelbach/walterskirchen-die-a5-wird-schon-asphaltiert


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## rudiwien

Pictures from laying concrete on the A5 Nordautobahn Schrick-Poysbrunn, specifically from the area around Walterskirchen (see http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/48.6432/16.7128)














































The machine produces a 13m wide band (so one dual-laned carriageway including shoulder) of 600m length per day. By mid-September, all works for the surface along the entire 34km section should be finished. Opening is scheduled for December 2nd.


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## SRC_100

^^
I wish this motorway would be opened month before... but beside this, great news :cheers2:

What`s about Drasenhofen`s bypass?


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## rudiwien

SRC_100 said:


> ^^
> What`s about Drasenhofen`s bypass?



See my post a bit above, nothing new on the status- construction to start this year in winter, opening 2019:



rudiwien said:


> Related news, but no so positive, are from the Drasenhofen bypass, which is the last village before the border, and thus the final bottleneck, see the map:
> 
> 
> 
> This will be built as a single-carriageway, until demand increases. Due to this decision a few years back to not build it as motorway standard, they had to restart some of the approval procedures.
> Initially, they wanted to open the bypass in 2018, now it is likely they could start construction end of this year (still some approvals to be confirmed in court), and finish in the second half of 2019.



Still not having all the permits, though, some were appealed against, so that timeline still has some uncertainties ...


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## Christian_AT

have still hope left that the drassenhofen bypass is NOT built in this stupid setting, what to i mean:

-> nobody needs the temporary Drassenhofen south roundabout
(local traffic can use the new exit Drassenhofen west instead with no disadvantages)
-> save the money on the temporary Drassenhofen north roundabout

-> use the saved money (and probably a little bit more) to build the future Drassenhofen north exit

-> benefits:
+ no traffic disrupting roundabouts
+ future Drassenhofen north already exists, save a lot of money at the full upgrade


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## rudiwien

Christian_AT said:


> have still hope left that the drassenhofen bypass is NOT built in this stupid setting, what to i mean:
> 
> -> nobody needs the temporary Drassenhofen south roundabout
> (local traffic can use the new exit Drassenhofen west instead with no disadvantages)
> -> save the money on the temporary Drassenhofen north roundabout
> 
> -> use the saved money (and probably a little bit more) to build the future Drassenhofen north exit
> 
> -> benefits:
> + no traffic disrupting roundabouts
> + future Drassenhofen north already exists, save a lot of money at the full upgrade



That sounds like a very valid argument; not sure what is in the environmental impact assessment plans (I think they are only about the bypass, not about the future potential motorway duplication), so it might not be too easy to change the layout. In any case, maybe worth writing to ASFINAG?

Funnily, on http://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssiche...rick-bis-poysbrunn-und-umfahrung-drasenhofen/, they talk about a grade-separated and no-traffic-lights bypass; maybe they consider roundabouts differently, or they talk up the project, or maybe maybe maybe they already plan it w/o roundabouts?


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## MichiH

rudiwien said:


> Funnily, on http://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssiche...rick-bis-poysbrunn-und-umfahrung-drasenhofen/, they talk about a grade-separated and no-traffic-lights bypass; maybe they consider roundabouts differently, or they talk up the project, or maybe maybe maybe they already plan it w/o roundabouts?


Are you talking about this statement:



> Durch den Bau der ampel- und kreuzungsfreien Umfahrung bei Drasenhofen


It just means "without traffic lights and junctions" (although kreuzungsfrei is usually translated "grade-separted")... :lol:


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## Verso

They probably didn't count the two roundabouts, because they're placed at the beginning and the end of the bypass, respectively. Between the roundabouts there is indeed no at-grade interchange planned, just a grade-separated interchange Drasenhofen west.


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## RipleyLV

Random pictures through Austria. Heading South from CZ border to Wien and then Tarvisio (I). 

*1.* I'll start with Latvi.., Drasenhofen village on the B7 after the Czech border. Incredible that there are still no bypass roads built during all these years on this important route. Can't imagine the daily life in these houses, as hundreds of trucks pass here almost every day.









*2.* Luckly, a few of these villages will be saved. This is before Poysdorf.









BTW, I did not capture the long ass _stau_ after this curve before Poysdorf.

*3.* _Bau!_









*4.* _Schneller!!_ The views here are quite scenic. Those fields look captivating.









*5.* Dusty.









*6.* Along the U/C A5.









*7.* On the motorway. This was the first time I saw this A5 segment, I have travelled here back in 2005, when there was just this 2-laned rural road all the way to Wien.









*8.* Neat.









*9.* Distant view.









*10.* _Hallo Leben_ as in Hello Life. Informative sign reminding to wear seatbelt.









*11.* Wien skyline on the horizon.









*12.* View towards the A5 (Wien) from the overpass to_ Raststation_ (The roadside rest area).









*13.* Different day. I skipped several places due to bad weather. This is the A2 autobahn in Graz with roadworks. It's the first time I was heading in direction to Italy on this route, as I mentioned above, I have travelled here in 2005 as a passenger, and in 2014 as the driver. 









*14.* View towards the A2 from a watch tower at one of the rest areas near Twimberg.









*15.* On the same bridge above.









*16.* Endless viaducts. Very scenic places.









*17.* Near Klagenfurt.









*18.* Autobahn along Wörthersee (lake), after Klagenfurt.









*19.* Beautiful clouds and the view itself.









*20.* Approaching this.. important.. junction (_Knoten/Kreuz Villach_, A2xA10).









*21.* We continue to ignore _Slowenien_, and head towards _Italien_.









*22.* 3 lanes out of nowhere..









*23.* Last moments in Austria near Arnoldstein..









*24.* ..and we're in Italy.


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## Christian_AT

RipleyLV said:


> Random pictures through Austria. Heading South from CZ border to Wien and then Tarvisio (I).
> 
> *22.* 3 lanes out of nowhere..


https://www.google.at/maps/@46.5572541,13.6874098,15.21z/data=!5m1!1e4

reason there are mountains and if there is a short hard climb piece a lane more is quite useful, you shot your picture direct after the exit hermagor after the gailitz bridge driving south direction, more than 30m up follow direct after the picture

nice pics


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## OulaL

Am I the only being bothered by this "Salzburg (D)"?


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## Sentilj

OulaL said:


> Am I the only being bothered by this "Salzburg (D)"?


We´ve got same on D1 motorway = Košice (H) :nuts:


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## VITORIA MAN

it means you can drive to salzburg and germany , i suppose


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## rudiwien

OulaL said:


> Am I the only being bothered by this "Salzburg (D)"?



I think so, yes :lol:

I see nothing wrong with that, don't think people will make an association that Salzburg is in Germany... And obviously, it is more important to announce Salzburg as the major town along the route than to write "Deutschland"..


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## OulaL

Well, there is another sign to "Udine (I) / Villach", similarily there could be "München (D) / Salzburg"...


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## OulaL

rudiwien said:


>


Will the border crossing be smooth enough to not disturb Swiss internal traffic on the motorway? It seems like there won't be too much space for queues.


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## rudiwien

OulaL said:


> Will the border crossing be smooth enough to not disturb Swiss internal traffic on the motorway? It seems like there won't be too much space for queues.



Technically, both Austria and Switzerland are in Schengen, so no border controls would be needed in "normal" times.

However, yes, if they do controls, there isn't basically any space at all.

Also interesting is that the currently the stump node built on the Swiss side doesn't allow for all the connections, some would have to go through the roundabout (e.g. northwards on A13 towards Austria):



Looks like a mixture of a trumpet and a partial cloverleaf, probably dictated by space restrictions..


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## Christian_AT

rudiwien said:


> Technically, both Austria and Switzerland are in Schengen, so no border controls would be needed in "normal" times.
> 
> However, yes, if they do controls, there isn't basically any space at all.
> 
> Also interesting is that the currently the stump node built on the Swiss side doesn't allow for all the connections, some would have to go through the roundabout (e.g. northwards on A13 towards Austria):
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like a mixture of a trumpet and a partial cloverleaf, probably dictated by space restrictions..



connector 5+6 should not be a Problem if needed, then the missing two 270° turns should not be the Problem, for example Austria -> A13 south is missing but this left turn would not be the Problem because it only Interrupts the local Exit traffic and no Major A1-A13-S18 flow, for the last one local->A1 you only have to build 2 lanes that the local left turn never Interrupts local/A1->S18, space limited, real Problems NO


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## rudiwien

Fotos from various lots of the construction of the A5 Schrick - Poybrunn, courtesy of ASFINAG, seem to be all from August 3rd 2017

- Wilfersdorf Süd / Mistelbach interchange (http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/48.5604/16.6372, https://www.google.com/maps/@48.5626082,16.6348569,2011m/data=!3m1!1e3)



- A bridge I think here: https://www.google.com/maps/@48.5978587,16.634632,356m/data=!3m1!1e3






Some other pics that I can't locate properly:


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## rheintram

Christian_AT said:


> CP makes for nobody sense, but the Greens and their silly nature Topic nothing more to say
> 
> 
> the best solution was the original one from Lustenau-North direct to wolfurt-lauterach, you can build a tunnel, use prefabricated tunnel elements would cause only a short disruption for the birds during building and the best would be you can use it for road & rail


Don't talk about stuff you have no idea about :bash:


----------



## rudiwien

Update on widening the A1 to 2x3 around Pöchlarn (maps: https://www.google.at/maps/@48.1970047,15.259141,13z and http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/48.1976/15.2543), the last remaining piece between Knoten Steinhäusl (with A21) and Knoten Voralpenkreuz (with A9/A8) to be two-laned only:

One carriageway is already opened to 3 lanes since this Wednesday, the second one will be opening end of November. This is temporarily for the winter, in April and May next year they will reduce it again to 2 lanes for finishing works.

Construction started late 2016, with traffic affected since mid 2017, and included widening 8 bridges, some pictures (from earlier stages), courtesy to ASFINAG:


----------



## bogdymol

Now compare how much it took to widen this ~5 km motorway in Austria, and how much it takes a similar job in Germany...


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## rudiwien

I guess for once, with ASFINAG, Austria created an actually efficient organisation... Not that the rest of the administration would be that great 

Btw, in case you are interested, the widening works cost actually 32 million Euro, for 5.1 km, so not a very cheap piece of work, the number of bridge widening is likely the cause.


----------



## rheintram

rudiwien said:


> Technically, both Austria and Switzerland are in Schengen, so no border controls would be needed in "normal" times.


What you forget and what has always been the main obstacle here is that Switzerland is part of Schengen but not part of the EU customs union. So some border infrastructure for custom checks *is needed*.










Originally a huge border stations was planned on the Austrian side near ASt Lustenau Nord. S18 originally was supposed to be built further north, but the connection to Switzerland was pretty much identical (Lustenau north, Höchst, St. Margrethen). As you can see on the satellite image there simply isn't any space on the Swiss side. This huge border station was one of the main reasons why many people protested the original S18 project and why it was eventually abandonned. It would have been located inside a Natura 2000 zone (back then it wasn't a Natura 2000 zone yet btw).



Christian_AT said:


> CP makes for nobody sense, but the Greens and their silly nature Topic nothing more to say


Sorry, but you have no idea. Neither the green party or any other party for that matter support the CP alternative. The green party favoured either the 0+ alterantive (no new street but improvements in rail infrastructure) or the M alterantive at Mäder (which in my opinion was the most sensible one). Ultimately a study concluded that only the ACP or CP alterantive are feasible.

No one, especially in Lustenau, wanted the CP alternative, hence - *despite the fact that this variant was already eliminated!* - variant E was reintroduced into the process and slightly modified to become alternative Z. you can read it all in full detail here:
http://www.vorarlberg.at/pdf/schlussdokument_klein.pdf



Christian_AT said:


> the best solution was the original one from Lustenau-North direct to wolfurt-lauterach, you can build a tunnel, use prefabricated tunnel elements would cause only a short disruption for the birds during building and the best would be you can use it for road & rail


Again, this is not what the original proposal looked like! It was supposed to be an elevated road, not a cut and cover road. The fact is, cut and cover is highly problemativ in this area, because it is a semi-swamp and it's also a flood zone:










A railway tunnel makes no sense in this area. It would need ramps to reach Lustenau station and then, after just 5 km or less, another set of ramps to reach Hard station. And only a small segment of maybe 1 km could be even shared with the road.

Long story short: I predict S18 to be a complete fail. There are too many problems here. First of all, people travelling between Switzerland and Germany will probably not use it, because they want to save money and won't buy the vignette. So nothing changes there. Trucks can be forced to use it, granted, but a much shorter connection further south (alternative M at Mäder) would have done that trick aswell. Routes can be enforced for transit. Secondly, S18 will do nothing for the Feldkirch - Buchs corridor. So everything will remain the same there. Everyone wanting to cross from the south, even if the goal in Switzerland is further north, will not take S18. Thirdly, the vast majority of the traffic between Au (CH) - Lustenau (A) - Dornbirn is generated locally, due to shopping and work places etc. Only a fraction will switch to S18, because 90% of the time taking L204 will be much faster.


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## rheintram

And just for your information, it wasn't just a bunch of NIMBYs and green activists who opposed the original S18 plans. It was the municipalities of Wolfurt, Dornbirn, Lauterach, Lustenau and Au (Switzerland), which all passed resolutions against it. None of these towns had a green party mayor.


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## ChrisZwolle

Well, you don't need a green party in office for them to have success. Other left-wing parties such as social democrats in many European countries often adapt green policies because they don't want to lose voters to the greens... Especially over important local topics such as an expressway or a power plant.

Green parties often wield more indirect power than their popular vote share suggests. The Netherlands has one of the highest rates of environmental taxes in Europe despite the greens never having been in government and generally get around 5-7% of the vote.


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## rheintram

The social democrats are practically non existent in Vorarlberg. The state was ruled by a conservative and right wing coalition at the time. All towns had conservative or right wing mayors at the time. Today they are all conservative and every town still opposes the original proposal which is also illegal btw.


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## rheintram

Another project at A14 pretty much right between Dornbirn, Lustenau and Hohenems: New exit Rheintal Mitte.










status quo:









building starts now, will be finished by 2020.


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## celevac

rheintram said:


> building starts now, will be finished by 2020.


Construction of this exit in flat terrain takes three years!?  

During the same period, countries like Hungary build 50km of new expressway. Can't believe a modern country like Austria can be so inefficient.


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## stickedy

celevac said:


> Construction of this exit in flat terrain takes three years!?
> 
> During the same period, countries like Hungary build 50km of new expressway. Can't believe a modern country like Austria can be so inefficient.


No bridges, no special stuff needed... This should be completed in 6 months!

But it's the same in Germany: In my region they are building are village bypass (2+1) with two bridges (no big ones!) and a hill cut. 2.6 km in total. Started 1.5 years ago, completion date is middle of 2019.

It's ridiculous to see: First building bridge 1 (over a small road), then building bridge 2 (over a "river" - a small one), then starting the road works between the bridges and towards the existing road and in spring next year, the start the hill cut (which is expected to take long time...) and the rest of the road. Crazy...

And in the newspapers every few months is an article how fast progress is... One year it would be if you start with everything at the same time and not part after part...


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## Negjana

rheintram said:


> building starts now, will be finished by 2020.


No, construction is supposed to start in about a year, and is supposed to be complete by mid 2020, so not quite 2 years of construction time.


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## rudiwien

rheintram said:


> Another project at A14 pretty much right between Dornbirn, Lustenau and Hohenems: New exit Rheintal Mitte.
> 
> building starts now, will be finished by 2020.





celevac said:


> Construction of this exit in flat terrain takes three years!?
> 
> During the same period, countries like Hungary build 50km of new expressway. Can't believe a modern country like Austria can be so inefficient.



Well, I think this statement is a bit hasty and based on incomplete information.

I think this has nothing to do with efficiency, and ASFINAG is *building* projects in a nice rhythm (not saying that enviromental approval is fast, but that is a different story).
E.g. the A5 extension around Poysdorf, 34km, was done in roughly 2 years. Overall construction started earlier already, because they had to realign the national road B7 first to make way for the motorway there, but most other lots had ~2 years construction time. Similar speed was e.g. on the S10 extension to Freistadt, also, the second tube of Gleinalmtunnel (8.3 km) was done in approximately 3.5 years. Once approval and financing is clear, the construction speed is really fine, we don't have projects that drag on forever in an upgrade stage...

Another example, there is an additional half-interchange built along A9 south of Graz (Hengsberg), which has a construction time from August 2017 till end of this year, so that is your 4-5 months (https://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssich...a-9-pyhrn-autobahn-anschlussstelle-hengsberg/). But that is a project with 4.5 million Euro budget, and did not include any significant major works.


The one "new interchange" quoted above is worth ~38 million Euro, and includes way more than just an interchange, but a new connection road to Messe (exhibition/fair) Dornbirn, and widening of a state road, basically everything in red below:



Work that starts now is not on the interchange, but on that other road to the Messe Dornbirn, built by the state of Vorarlberg, see e.g. https://www.vorarlberg.at/vorarlber...tuelleplanungen/a14_rheintal_walgauautoba.htm


According to ASFINAG (https://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssich...lgau-autobahn-anschlussstelle-rheintal-mitte/), their part ofconstruction will start in October 2018, and will be finished by mid 2020, so ~1.75 years. Still not über fast, but considering that there is likely quite some coordination and timing with other aspects of the construction, I think it is fine.


(And generally, I think you can't compare building projects that have maybe 85% EU funding contributions with others. If there was that money available for that interchange, it would be done faster as well  )


----------



## Negjana

Construction time really isn't really slow in Austria for both road and rail projects. Both parts of the Pottendorfer Linie upgrade will take only about 3 years each, the Stadlau - Aspern Nord part of the Vienna - Bratislava will be complete after 2 years! As rudiwien mentioned, the construction of road projects also doesn't take very long, S1 with its 3 tunnels also only took 3 years.

But unfortunately it is becoming increasingly popular to complain and moan and discredit officials, while at the same time having little to no clue about the specific projects and processes involved. hno:


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## rheintram

stickedy said:


> It's ridiculous to see: First building bridge 1 (over a small road), then building bridge 2 (over a "river" - a small one), then starting the road works between the bridges and towards the existing road and in spring next year, the start the hill cut (which is expected to take long time...) and the rest of the road. Crazy...


As others already pointed out, the exit (AST) is just a part of the project. The much bigger one will be building collector lanes between AST Dornbirn Süd and AST Rheintal Mitte, as well as a new road connecting Rheintal Mitte with an industrial zone in Dornbirn. Also the underground in this area is terrible, so even streets require extraordinary earth works.


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## Christian_AT

stickedy said:


> But it's the same in Germany: In my region they are building are village bypass (2+1) with two bridges (no big ones!) and a hill cut. 2.6 km in total. Started 1.5 years ago, completion date is middle of 2019.



simple NO, i know what you mean i am near the border:
https://www.google.at/maps/@48.3325394,13.2302691,192m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=de
a new section, start official and build a complete simple minor Bridge the first 2 years, after this start with the real construction in total about 6 years, this is Germany


Austria in this case A14-RheintalMitte is the local road Network has to be upgraded first, it make no sence to create the new Exit first, would cause only chaos so the Exit construction is delayed to have it done when the other needed infrastructure is ready




for example A1 widenening from s2-2s to s3-3s done in 12 month with a lot of bridges, only next year they will reduce it back for some completion works


afinag builds always in a regular shedule, as fast as possible and as cheap as possible
(you can be very slow that will be expensive because a lot of small single construction sites, you can be very fast that will be expensive because build Weekends and nights is expensive)


----------



## rudiwien

A new visualisation from ASFINAG on the proposed extension of S10 (which is the continuation of A7 from Linz) between Freistadt and Rainbach, in the corridor towards the Wullowitz border crossing -> České Budějovice (Budweis):






ASFINAG website: https://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssich...-schnellstrasse-freistadt-nord-rainbach-nord/

Map:


A total of 7,2 km, at an construction costs of 208 million euro, it includes a tunnel of ~900 meter, a covered section near Rainbach of ~250m, some larger bridges, and two half interchanges (Rainbach West, and Rainbach Nord)

It is prepared now for submission to environmental approval, construction could start 2021 and be finished 2024. The remainder of the road towards the Czech border, around 8km, would be built when traffic requires it, and likely only when/if the Czechia builds a motorway grade road from the border to Budweis.

This would then be the third motorway/expressway connection to Czechia that stops short before the border (besides the extension of A5, which will open in 3 weeks, ending ~9km before the border (Drasenhofen bypass will still be only 1+1), and S3, which will be a 2+1, and will in early 2020 end around 11km before the border)


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## Negjana

Hard for me to imagine that there is more traffic on that segment than between Poysbrunn and the Czech border, and between Hollabrunn and the Czech border, both pieces of road that will be built only to half profile. :hmm:


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## JackFrost

rudiwien said:


> This would then be the third motorway/expressway connection to Czechia that stops short before the border (besides the extension of A5, which will open in 3 weeks, ending ~9km before the border (Drasenhofen bypass will still be only 1+1), and S3, which will be a 2+1, and will in early 2020 end around 11km before the border)


The Czechs dont react to the Austrian approaches.


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## ChrisZwolle

There's a fair amount of work on D3. Not so much on D52.


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## Christian_AT

rudiwien said:


> A new visualisation from ASFINAG on the proposed extension of S10 (which is the continuation of A7 from Linz) between Freistadt and Rainbach, in the corridor towards the Wullowitz border crossing -> České Budějovice (Budweis):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ASFINAG website: https://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssich...-schnellstrasse-freistadt-nord-rainbach-nord/
> 
> Map:
> 
> 
> A total of 7,2 km, at an construction costs of 208 million euro, it includes a tunnel of ~900 meter, a covered section near Rainbach of ~250m, some larger bridges, and two half interchanges (Rainbach West, and Rainbach Nord)
> 
> It is prepared now for submission to environmental approval, construction could start 2021 and be finished 2024. The remainder of the road towards the Czech border, around 8km, would be built when traffic requires it, and likely only when/if the Czechia builds a motorway grade road from the border to Budweis.
> 
> This would then be the third motorway/expressway connection to Czechia that stops short before the border (besides the extension of A5, which will open in 3 weeks, ending ~9km before the border (Drasenhofen bypass will still be only 1+1), and S3, which will be a 2+1, and will in early 2020 end around 11km before the border)


this section will remove the last bottlenecks on this corridor on austrian side, the last section to the border is on an high 1+1 standard, to build this in this setup is a real good decision


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## rudiwien

@Chris: I am only aware of work on D3 from D1/Praha to Budweis, where there's still maybe 70-80 km to build, and it seems that also only a rather short section of ~16km is currently under construction.
Not sure what is the timeline for the section from Budweis to the border, and that is still around 40-45 km to build..

@Negjana - I agree, this Freistadt Nord - Rainbach Nord could easily be built with only one carriageway initially, there isn't any bigger settlement north of Freistadt that would justify a 2+2, if there is then 55+ km of 1+1..


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## Negjana

The section from Úsilné to Dolní Třebonín is supposed to be complete by October 2020, according to czech wikipedia.


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## ChrisZwolle

rudiwien said:


> @Chris: I am only aware of work on D3 from D1/Praha to Budweis, where there's still maybe 70-80 km to build, and it seems that also only a rather short section of ~16km is currently under construction.
> Not sure what is the timeline for the section from Budweis to the border, and that is still around 40-45 km to build..


Yes but they also completed over 30 kilometers in the past 4 years. So there is progress, but the Czech road building programme has stalled a lot over the past decade.


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## MichiH

Negjana said:


> The section from Úsilné to Dolní Třebonín is supposed to be complete by October 2020, according to czech wikipedia.


Construction works south of České Budějovice are announced to begin in April 2018 (latest update: 27th October 2017). The entire motorway up to the border is announced to be completed by 2022.

https://www.rsd.cz/wps/portal/web/m...nstructionstatus=constructionStatus_preparing



rudiwien said:


> It is prepared now for submission to environmental approval, construction could start 2021 and be finished 2024. The remainder of the road towards the Czech border, around 8km, would be built when traffic requires it, and likely only when/if the Czechia builds a motorway grade road from the border to Budweis.


Sure, I also expect (major) delays in Czechia...


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## Eulanthe

Something I don't understand about Austria - what is with the obsession with not finishing roads to the Czech border? Even if the Czechs are useless at building motorways, it would be much nicer for everyone if the D5 was constructed as 2+2 all the way to the border regardless of what the Czechs do.


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## rudiwien

Yes, of course it would be "nice" to have the 2+2 towards the border. But funds are also not unlimited, and thus it really makes sense to build the roads according to the expected demands. Beyond the currently proposed / under construction termini of the motorways, there isn't any major local/domestic source of traffic, thus it is "only" of importance for transit. While a 2+2 road is far from completion on the "other" side, I'd rather see the money spent on projects that solve real bottlenecks (and there are a few...)

And maybe there has been a certain level of mistrust built up against the commitment of the Czech sides to finish their parts of the corridors, so that might also play a role - build something that solves the biggest issues, and be prepared to react if the "other side" did their part; which is what they do in Drasenhofen, with a half-profile motorway. Of course, this could lead to a stalemate, where each side waits for the other 


I think from an Austrian point of view, likely A5 is the most important connection to Czechia, because it connects the Vienna region as the most populous part of the country (well, for Vienna, likely the corridor via the S3, so via Hollabrunn and Znojmo, would actually be the preferable route towards Prague being a bit more direct, but that corridor is really far away from completion in a 2+2 motorway standard on both sides, and it would also neglect Brno, and one anyway would need A5 for connections further towards Poland, so it makes all sense that this is built first and most complete).
S10 also not unimportant, but I'd say second priority, that's why it gets built only later. 

--

Now, in other news, reports today that indeed, A5 will open on December 8th, along with a couple of pictures, though they could already be a couple of weeks old:














It is also mentioned that Mistelbach Ost/Wilfersdorf Süd, i.e. the southernmost of the new interchanges, will open only in Spring 2018. It is the first time that I have read about that, but it makes sense, as the interchange design is for two roundabouts connecting the ramps with the B7-road and further roads (the B40 Mistelbach bypass) -
see http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/48.56277/16.63575.
Currently, they had not built the roundabouts, but rather used traffic lights, and limited the possible turns, to keep traffic running more smoothly.
So I assume that they only start building the roundabouts once they actually open A5, and 95% of the traffic on the B7 has disappeared..


----------



## Christian_AT

rudiwien said:


> @Chris: I am only aware of work on D3 from D1/Praha to Budweis, where there's still maybe 70-80 km to build, and it seems that also only a rather short section of ~16km is currently under construction.
> Not sure what is the timeline for the section from Budweis to the border, and that is still around 40-45 km to build..
> 
> @Negjana - I agree, this Freistadt Nord - Rainbach Nord could easily be built with only one carriageway initially, there isn't any bigger settlement north of Freistadt that would justify a 2+2, if there is then 55+ km of 1+1..




yes what is the real Price for building only the half, normally about 60-70% compared to the full Job, from my perspective it would be a loss of Money to make this "saving" game which is longtherm only pay more








MichiH said:


> Construction works south of České Budějovice are announced to begin in April 2018 (latest update: 27th October 2017). The entire motorway up to the border is announced to be completed by 2022.
> 
> https://www.rsd.cz/wps/portal/web/m...nstructionstatus=constructionStatus_preparing
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, I also expect (major) delays in Czechia...


exactly, CZ numbers of future segments are always like if we find a Magic Money tree and we can start tomorrow than would be written opening date, since years i see this Dates shifting back every year, big plans to build and less money


----------



## rudiwien

Christian_AT said:


> yes what is the real Price for building only the half, normally about 60-70% compared to the full Job, from my perspective it would be a loss of Money to make this "saving" game which is longtherm only pay more



In an ideal world, if money is available currently, and financing costs don't exist, then yes, then in overall, it is in principle better to build the full profile right away.
But just because building a half profile (and it actually is always more than half, when bridges and other art work is prepared for later dualling) something costs maybe 60-70%, and then maybe another 60% in 15 years, the current value of these expenses might actually be the same. Of course, the current benefit will be lower.
Generally, just building every new project always as 2+2 in my opinion excludes many aspects of traffic infrastructure planning, and *especially* on the S10 segment, I would like to see how the situation really develops on the Czech side.
And even if you only save 30-40% of the money, especially on S10, which costs 208 million Euro (for 7.5 km!), that is still a lot of money - A5 Schrick-Poysbrunn costs 283 million, for 25km, and the Drasenhofen bypass 50 million, for 9km half profile. With that 30-40% saving, you could build a couple of other kms in half-profile in places that don't currently warrant a 2+2.


What I do agree with is that it is stupid to build a road that is technically 2+2, but not to motorway standards, when it comes to radii, reserved road corridor, etc. We had those built in the past, and upgrading that retro-actively is really an enormous amount of money wasted, e.g. on the A2 from Graz to Klagenfurt. But that is not what they are currently doing on A5 with the Drasenhofen bypass, so I think that is a rather sensible approach.

It is a bit more debatable on S3 from Hollabrunn to Guntersdorf, where they build a 2+1, but they do not anticipate any future upgrading. Then again, one can also see the case for that, as there are already ~23km of 2+1 in operation between Stockerau and Hollabrunn, and if the S3 ever gets upgraded to 2+2, those are the first segments to be done, and only then one would extend the northern section. And it would thus be decades until that happens...


----------



## alesmarv

Christian_AT said:


> yes what is the real Price for building only the half, normally about 60-70% compared to the full Job, from my perspective it would be a loss of Money to make this "saving" game which is longtherm only pay more
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> exactly, CZ numbers of future segments are always like if we find a Magic Money tree and we can start tomorrow than would be written opening date, since years i see this Dates shifting back every year, big plans to build and less money


Their problem is not money but will power to push projects through current processes.

The D3 construction to Dolní Třebonín is all but guaranteed to start by fall 2018. That leaves 20km's to the border. Those remaining 20km's are moving along and should start before the end of the decade, well at least to Kaplice with the remaining 14km's waiting for the Austrian side. The D3 will be complete to the border with Austria by 2024, a near certainty all segments are moving forward smoothly with no major risks of set backs. Having said that the D3 north of Tabor towards Prague is anyone guess and I doubt anything gets completed within the next decade. Right now best guess is maybe 2024 to start some construction but that is a big what if. Lots of problems and question marks, though as the condition of the current route through Benesov deteriorates there will be growing pressure to get something done.

As for Brno to Wien it is not a priority beyond a by pass of Mikulov which should start construction before the decade is up. The rest you can expect maybe in 10 years.


----------



## Eulanthe

alesmarv said:


> As for Brno to Wien it is not a priority beyond a by pass of Mikulov which should start construction before the decade is up. The rest you can expect maybe in 10 years.


And this is really crazy. The entire Brno-Vienna corridor should be looked at as part of the much bigger Warsaw-Vienna corridor, but alas, the Czechs have seemingly zero interest in it. Even in Poland, part of the corridor (DK8) from Wrocław to the border is pretty much ignored.

Still, I wish the entire A5/D52 corridor would get completed. I've used it enough times to get frustrated, especially as Vienna-Brno is only 145km.


----------



## podkoscielny

Eulanthe said:


> And this is really crazy. The entire Brno-Vienna corridor should be looked at as part of the much bigger Warsaw-Vienna corridor, but alas, the Czechs have seemingly zero interest in it. Even in Poland, part of the corridor (DK8) from Wrocław to the border is pretty much ignored.
> 
> Still, I wish the entire A5/D52 corridor would get completed. I've used it enough times to get frustrated, especially as Vienna-Brno is only 145km.


Polish part of Warsaw-Vienna corridor will be probably the first one finished. A1 from Silesia to Czestochowa and S8 from Mszczonow to Warsaw are currently being built, both to be finished mid 2019. There is also a tender in progress for the last part of A1 - Czestochowa - Piotrkow Trybunalski.

I was living in Vienna in 2015, travelling from and to Krakow once a month. Brno - Vienna was a nightmare and I'm really glad that A5 will be opened soon.


----------



## Christian_AT

rudiwien said:


> In an ideal world, if money is available currently, and financing costs don't exist, then yes, then in overall, it is in principle better to build the full profile right away.
> But just because building a half profile (and it actually is always more than half, when bridges and other art work is prepared for later dualling) something costs maybe 60-70%, and then maybe another 60% in 15 years, the current value of these expenses might actually be the same. Of course, the current benefit will be lower.
> Generally, just building every new project always as 2+2 in my opinion excludes many aspects of traffic infrastructure planning, and *especially* on the S10 segment, I would like to see how the situation really develops on the Czech side.
> And even if you only save 30-40% of the money, especially on S10, which costs 208 million Euro (for 7.5 km!), that is still a lot of money - A5 Schrick-Poysbrunn costs 283 million, for 25km, and the Drasenhofen bypass 50 million, for 9km half profile. With that 30-40% saving, you could build a couple of other kms in half-profile in places that don't currently warrant a 2+2.



mountain style and flat area, S10 Needs in this area bridges and tunnels, build the half an later upgrade would be huge expensive, even traffic dont Needs 2+2 it is an safety Advantage to build this section in full Standard


@alesmarv:
if i look in the future 7 years and Analyse the Situation:


austria some missing with 0 bottlenecks/problems


czech a lot missing with 2 bottlenecks (my knowledge) with no clear funding/construction:
- about 60km Praha - Tabor (open parts do not create beneftis, all 60km needed)
- about 6km Dolní Třebonín - Kaplice North (maybe temporary end) to remove bottlenecks
(or real Exit Kaplice south and build in total about 10km)


#


Kaplice south - Rainbach North (border Region both countries) 


is no Problem, both countries can wait und see how the traffic develop


projected border crossing is very near to the existing one means if one Country is faster it can finish the S10 - D3, but why waste Money to build early if nobody Needs the upgrade, both countries have other Projects which are more important


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## Christian_AT

the missing North part seems from external view important, reality is that the south part - Bypass Linz is the real issue

but after years of discussions they fixed a route how to build it:
https://www.land-oberoesterreich.gv...egionskonferenz_letztstand20150209_OuL_r9.pdf
(end of document preffered solution)
still waiting for a real shedule, reality is we Need it now, but it is a huge gain to have reached this stage of the process


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## rudiwien

Coming back to the S10 northern extension: ASFINAG says in a press release that they are submitting the documents for the environmental approval process (Umweltverträglichkeits-Prüfung (UVP)) today: https://www.asfinag.at/ueber-uns/ne...p-fuer-s-10-abschnitt-freistadt-bis-rainbach/

The UVP process can easily take up to two years, and then you can likely expect appeals against the decision, at the Bundesverwaltungsgericht.

In the press release, they say that without the S10, in the year 2035, there would be 19.400 vehicles passing through Rainbach per day, and that with S10, that would drop to below 1.500.


----------



## alesmarv

Christian_AT said:


> mountain style and flat area, S10 Needs in this area bridges and tunnels, build the half an later upgrade would be huge expensive, even traffic dont Needs 2+2 it is an safety Advantage to build this section in full Standard
> 
> 
> @alesmarv:
> if i look in the future 7 years and Analyse the Situation:
> 
> 
> austria some missing with 0 bottlenecks/problems
> 
> 
> czech a lot missing with 2 bottlenecks (my knowledge) with no clear funding/construction:
> - about 60km Praha - Tabor (open parts do not create beneftis, all 60km needed)
> - about 6km DolnÃ* TřebonÃ*n - Kaplice North (maybe temporary end) to remove bottlenecks
> (or real Exit Kaplice south and build in total about 10km)
> 
> 
> #
> 
> 
> Kaplice south - Rainbach North (border Region both countries)
> 
> 
> is no Problem, both countries can wait und see how the traffic develop
> 
> 
> projected border crossing is very near to the existing one means if one Country is faster it can finish the S10 - D3, but why waste Money to build early if nobody Needs the upgrade, both countries have other Projects which are more important


D3 North of Tabor might be a long while. Nothing is firmed up and there will be opposition. Officially all segments are scheduled to start construction in 2024 but given the current state of the project and the likely opposition this is one that could be delayed and become a real pain. There needs to be real aggressive movement on this stretch now and I don't see it. Which is unfortunate.

Trebonin to Kaplice is moving along and will get done soon. Official start of construction is Spring 2019, its do-able. Delays should not be too significant.
http://www.ceskedalnice.cz/dalnice/d3/

If the highway can be all complete from Prague to Linz by 2030 I would be a happy person. It can be done. Just need to throw some more bodies at the Tabor to Prague section and get it moving forward so opposition and appeals etc can be dealt with early. The border segments on both sides are not going to be a problem.


----------



## g.spinoza

Christian_AT said:


> the missing North part seems from external view important, reality is that the south part - Bypass Linz is the real issue
> 
> but after years of discussions they fixed a route how to build it:
> https://www.land-oberoesterreich.gv...egionskonferenz_letztstand20150209_OuL_r9.pdf
> (end of document preffered solution)
> still waiting for a real shedule, reality is we Need it now, but it is a huge gain to have reached this stage of the process


What will it happen to the current urban stretch of A7? Will it be demolished or kept for local use?


----------



## italystf

I don't know, but they should keep both of them, otherwise the traffic problem would only move to the new motorway.


----------



## Christian_AT

italystf said:


> I don't know, but they should keep both of them, otherwise the traffic problem would only move to the new motorway.



will stay in place, covers a lot of local traffic


but with the Bypass you get all out of the City which dont want to drive through the City but is today forced to do it because this is the only option


----------



## g.spinoza

Christian_AT said:


> will stay in place, covers a lot of local traffic
> 
> 
> but with the Bypass you get all out of the City which dont want to drive through the City but is today forced to do it because this is the only option


Yes, I remember driving through Linz to go to Czechia, few years ago, not as a pleasant experience: lots of exits, and traffic, and if I remember correctly also lane width was substandard.


----------



## italystf

g.spinoza said:


> Yes, I remember driving through Linz to go to Czechia, few years ago, not as a pleasant experience: lots of exits, and traffic, and if I remember correctly also lane width was substandard.


Me too, and the whole 1+1 (sometimes 2+1) road almost all the way to Prague (except a short motorway section in CZ) is a nightmare of traffic. I went there before S10 opened.
A7 is probably the most problematic stretch in Austria, similar to the "Tangenziale di Mestre" before they opened the "Passante". It was opened during the Cold War, when there wasn't much traffic north of Linz.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A7 through Linz carries as much as 100,000 vehicles per day.


----------



## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> A7 through Linz carries as much as 100,000 vehicles per day.


That's a huge figure for a 2x2 motorway. Italian A4 between Milan and Brescia has a similar figure, but it's either 2x4 or 2x3.


----------



## MichiH

^^ I think that's also a reason why Austria doesn't want to improve the route for (more) transit traffic. The eastern Linz bypass will not being build soon (> 2030).


----------



## Christian_AT

MichiH said:


> ^^ I think that's also a reason why Austria doesn't want to improve the route for (more) transit traffic. The eastern Linz bypass will not being build soon (> 2030).


this is the future concept in Austria which is most likely build earlier and faster than projected

1. Money wont be a issue, network is nearly finished, expensive upgraded and refurbished the last 15 years
(history 2000 the motorways was in average bad condition, now relative good, history 2000 was a lot of gaps which was closed, history 2000 was a lot of aged single tube alp tunnels and expensive twining and refurbish is nearly complete done)

2. actual situation in Linz is one of the badest in Austria

3. Linz will grow, situation will go worse

4. Linz A7 need refurbishment and will be refurbished the next 14 years (in very tiny steps to dont create a total collapse), situation will go worse

5. improving the overall A7-S10-D3-D8 corridor will boost traffic, situation will go worse

my money is that the bypass openening date will be about 2027-2031


----------



## Luki_SL

Motorway A 5 Schrick - Poysbrunn will open on December 8th.
From : ASFINAG : https://www.asfinag.at/ueber-uns/newsroom/pressemeldungen/2017/a-5-schrick-bis-poybrunn/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Can we expect major policy changes with an FPÖ minister for transport? Did they make any campaign promises?


----------



## Christian_AT

ChrisZwolle said:


> Can we expect major policy changes with an FPÖ minister for transport? Did they make any campaign promises?


now a very long answer will follow:

no


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Back in the day there was some talk about a 160 km/h speed limit, I believe that was also an FPÖ idea?


----------



## Christian_AT

ChrisZwolle said:


> Back in the day there was some talk about a 160 km/h speed limit, I believe that was also an FPÖ idea?



again:


a lot of words which can be shortend to "all stay the same road/rail/waterways", 


there was from the new Minister a clear Statement (surprise and hard to believe from a politican) AGAINST Speed 160kmh


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *S7:* Riegersdorf (A2) – Dobersdorf 14.8km (May 2015 to 2022) – project – map


Green light for Fürstenfelder Schnellstraße! All orders are legal now!

https://www.asfinag.at/ueber-uns/ne...licht-fuer-s-7-fuerstenfelder-schnellstrasse/

Two tenders have already been published in November, two additional tenders will be published in early 2018. The construction of a temporary (construction) road has already been started. *Both sections will be completed by late 2023*. 648 million €. Construction works on the eastern secton will be started in 2020.

If memory serves, only the construction of a single bridge over A2 was started in 2015.

*S7:* Riegersdorf (A2) – Dobersdorf 14.8km (May 2015 to Late 2023) – project – map
*S7:* Dobersdorf – AT/HU border (Heiligenkreuz) 13.6km (2020 to Late 2023) – project – map


----------



## Christian_AT

MichiH said:


> If memory serves, only the construction of a single bridge over A2 was started in 2015.



not correct, 
a old A2 Bridge was refurbished and because of the following interchange with A2-S7 
(which will come sooner or later) 
it was an additional widening of the Bridge to not have to touch the Bridge in some years again,
save Money and not to make work twice 


this one:
https://www.google.com/maps/dir//E5...074a1a2!2m2!1d15.980743!2d47.0937792?hl=de-AT
(the Wood is already removed on this Images for the new S7)


----------



## MichiH

^^ Thanks. Clearance was done and you can already see the future S7 alignment for about 3km.


----------



## rudiwien

Regarding the policy changes from the FPÖ minister for infrastructure - from what I have read, he said he was not thinking about it, but there was also no super-clear rejection of the idea. Still,it seems rather unlikely.

One thing that he proposed, not applicable to the motorways though , is that he wants to "test" turning (right) on red, as e.g. in the USA.

Generally, there was some talk about "speeding up" the Umweltverträglichkeitsprüfung (UVP, environmental approval) process, though it is not clear yet how. Could be potentially limiting the eligibility of who can object, etc.. That might have an impact on how fast projects could be started from once they are politically decided, but I am not sure if there are any movements towards more funds for road construction.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ They did that in the Netherlands. Only people directly impacted by the project can appeal, not people against it on ideological grounds. It significantly sped up the approval process, from an average of 11 years to 4-5 years.


----------



## Luki_SL




----------



## KingNick

Christian_AT said:


> now a very long answer will follow:
> 
> no


Not true. Hofer already announced that he wants to introduce red light right turning and also raise the speed limit.


----------



## Christian_AT

KingNick said:


> Not true. Hofer already announced that he wants to introduce red light right turning and also raise the speed limit.



First this yes but not secured, maybe a test if this principle works and create real benefits and not much accidents, yes i know that this is in use in other countries but the Drivers must be able to understand


Second this is no infrastructure issue, like cut or increase funding or that the new Boss do or not like a Special Projects/ideas, how austrian roads look like in 2025 wont really Change


Third General Speed sheme with 50-100-130 wont Change, he said that he will check if "absurd" lower speed Limits can be remove BUT it have to be save, a typical Statement because wo is not pissed from slower limited Areas, sounds always good to announce i want to do something


----------



## Negjana

One can hardly understand what you are trying to say.......


----------



## Wolfgang16

This evening in Austria's main newscast ZIB1 it was said that the new minister Norbert Hofer thinks about raising the speed limit from 130 to 140 under good conditions. The speed at which you loose your driver's licence however won't change.

You can see that in the following link, in german of course.
http://tvthek.orf.at/profile/ZIB-1/1203/ZIB-1/13958487/Erhoehung-des-Tempolimits-denkbar/14203069


----------



## x37

A Render-Video of the S7 Fürstenfelder-Schnellstraße. (A2 to Hungary)

https://vimeo.com/171302391

The work should start next year.

Infos in german:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fürstenfelder_Schnellstraße


----------



## celevac

x37 said:


> A Render-Video of the S7 Fürstenfelder-Schnellstraße. (A2 to Hungary)
> 
> https://vimeo.com/171302391
> 
> The work should start next year.
> 
> Infos in german:
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fürstenfelder_Schnellstraße


Wait, so the eastern section of S7 will be only 1x1 ?? :bash:


----------



## MichiH

^^ True! It was originally planned to be 2x2 up to the border but it seems that it was changed! Now I understand, why Hungary also just plans 2-laned........ 

The video looks like there's no space reservation for a 2nd c/w but I found a document from March 2016 indicating that a future 2nd carriageway should be "considered".



> Die S7 wird in diesem Streckenabschnitt im zweistreifigen Ausbau hergestellt. Das Objekt S7.46b-E wird für diesen zweistreifigen Ausbau ausgelegt, jedoch ist ein *späterer vierstreifiger Ausbau bei der Planung zu berücksichtigen*.


----------



## rudiwien

celevac said:


> Wait, so the eastern section of S7 will be only 1x1 ?? :bash:



I don't see the issue with that, in fact, I think it is a very sensible approach. Till Fürstenfeld & Rudersdorf, you have a somewhat significant population (Fürstenfeld ist just above 8.000, Rudersdorf 2.000 inhabitants), but east of that, there are only villages, so there won't be any significant traffic originating there. A grade-separated 1+1 bypass is all they need.

If the route proves to be an interesting alternative for transit, it can be upgraded. If that approach is enough for the A5 to Brno, I don't see why it won't work here either.
And it's not that there would be a motorway grade 2+2 just waiting on the Hungarian side. Even if the part till Körmend was built as 2+2, you are still stuck for many kilometers with either expressways (towards Szombathely & Györ) or 1+1 with some 2+2 sections (towards Veszprem or the M7 on the southern side of Balaton).

If Hungary builds the M8, the Austrian S7 could form a part of an interesting east-west route from Italy/Klagenfurt/Graz to south-eastern Hungary, Romania, etc, bypassing both the Wiener Neustadt / Vienna region as well as the Budapest metro area. But that is a long way to go, and I am not sure if there would be enough demand for such a route at the moment anyhow (if you don't take the usual holiday migration frenzy as the target to solve..)




MichiH said:


> ^^ True! It was originally planned to be 2x2 up to the border but it seems that it was changed! Now I understand, why Hungary also just plans 2-laned........
> 
> The video looks like there's no space reservation for a 2nd c/w but I found a document from March 2016 indicating that a future 2nd carriageway should be "considered".
> 
> 
> 
> Die S7 wird in diesem Streckenabschnitt im zweistreifigen Ausbau hergestellt. Das Objekt S7.46b-E wird für diesen zweistreifigen Ausbau ausgelegt, jedoch *ist* ein späterer vierstreifiger Ausbau bei der Planung* zu berücksichtigen*.
Click to expand...


That would rather read as in "a 2nd carriageway *has to be* considered"


----------



## rudiwien

There was a head-on collision in the Arlbergtunnel on S16, 4 vehicles involved and 11 people injured, supposedly 4 serious injured. A British driver went on the opposing lane, causing the crash. The tunnel was closed for several hours.











Arlbergtunnel (https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/89596214#map=13/47.1229/10.1859), with a length of 13.972 meters, is the longest road tunnel in Austria. While part of the S16 expressway that connects Tirol and Vorarlberg, it is a single-tube 1+1 tunnel. Parts of S16 are 1+1 as well, some parts are 2+1, and some parts (including some of the tunnels, mostly the newer ones) are 2+2


The tunnel will remain a single-tube tunnel for many decades to be, as it was just renovated until autumn 2017. The upgrade included emergency bays as well as connecting emergency escape tunnels to the Arlberg railway tunnel, to meet current safety requirements.
The upgrade costed 154 million Euro. A twinning would have likely costed three to five times that amount, judging from the per-km price of other twinning projects of long road tunnels in Austria in recent history (Gleinalmtunnel, Bosrucktunnel, ...).

Annual average daily traffic in the tunnel is around 8.500.


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## ChrisZwolle

There seems to be political interest to construct the 'Waldviertelautobahn': http://noe.orf.at/news/stories/2888746/

I think this would be a motorway along the B2 corridor? Say Hollabrunn, Horn, Waidhofen - České Budějovice?


----------



## Christian_AT

ChrisZwolle said:


> There seems to be political interest to construct the 'Waldviertelautobahn': http://noe.orf.at/news/stories/2888746/
> 
> I think this would be a motorway along the B2 corridor? Say Hollabrunn, Horn, Waidhofen - České Budějovice?


he visited the region and answered the question for infrastructure investment with:

"we make some studies, but even if they are positive it will need 10-20 years minimal before something can happen"

the reality is the roads are enough and this region has an expected population projection from -13% @2050 and is on the top-shrinking list
(austria total about +20% to match the numbers)

= 

nothing will be built


----------



## MichiH

^^ The Waldviertelautobahn was already discussed in the 1970s. The proposed route was in the B2 corridor, the missing segment is here: http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=48.79...485788786;10965729;0;6818390;812501;0;2438102 (more than 80km from S3 to the west). More info:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldviertler_Schnellstraße

http://www.waldviertelautobahn.at/


----------



## rudiwien

The current status, roughly summarised

- The former governor (Landeshauptmann) of the state of Niederösterreich (NÖ) was rather opposing the idea of the Waldviertelautobahn. His ideas were towards upgrading existing national roads, mostly to 2+1 with bypasses.
He has retired last year, and the new leadership in the ÖVP, which currently holds the absolute majority of seats, seems more actively supporting an Autobahn.

- Now comes the potential reason why - there are *elections* in NÖ on *January 2018*, so of course, some of the support given now is due to that.. It will be more clear afterwards who wants to actually dedicate money 

- However, NÖ has most of its other motorway corridors approved now, so maybe they indeed need to find something new to ask from the federal government :lol:
-- A5 is open towards Poysdorf since a month, and Drasenhofen bypass is starting in a couple of months. Duplication of that, if needed, seems also rather given.

-- S3 from Hollabrunn to Guntersdorf is under construction. Granted, it is mostly 2+1, and from Guntersdorf northwards 1+1 (B303), and still a handful of roundabouts exist, but once finalised, all settlements are bypassed. And it is likely all that this corridor needs for a long time.
Basically, until Czechia would build a motorway from Jihlava to Austria via Znojmo, which would then form the shortest connection Vienna-Prague. But I don't think that this is going to happen soon, the strategy for the Czech 38 road is rather similar as for S3, grade separation, bypasses of villages, ...

-- Upgrades to A3 (Ostautobahn) towards Budapest are on the way, it will be extended to 2x3 till Neusiedl (Parndorf) by 2023, preparation works have already started.

-- S1 (Lobautunnel) and S8 (to the east towards Gänserndorf, maybe later to Marchegg) seem to have financing guaranteed, it is rather a matter of waiting for the environmental aspects (Umweltverträglichkeitsprüfung) to be confirmed in court. And S1 is mainly a concern for Vienna, anyhow.

-- S34 Traisental Schnellstraße (St. Pölten – Knoten St. Pölten/West (A 1) – south to Wilhelmsburg), which would partially also form a western bypass for St. Pölten, is also not yet started, but I think once permits are confirmed, that one also has funding rather secured; start of construction currently is indicated with 2019 (but it has also been pushed backwards, like A5/S1/S3/S8 year by year due to many appeals against the Umweltverträglichkeitsprüfung)

That indeed leaves no other major projects that would need starting a (political) *planning* phase now.. So nothing to brag to voters in the mid-term future  Therefore, I would think that this idea is not per-se dead from the start...

- So the state of NÖ last year announced they would pay for an initial study (see e.g. http://www.noen.at/zwettl/waldviertel-autobahn-wird-nun-konkreter/61.208.362). But as said, NÖ is basically not wanting to spend their own money on construction, but rather federal funds (via ASFINAG). However, they are traditionally one of the most important states...


The discussed terminus is towards Waidhofen or Gmünd. A map of the area:


The current road situation:

- Some of B4 (from Stockerau to Horn) has been upgraded, there are bypasses for quite many villages, some grade-separated, some rather extensive (e.g. the one around Maissau, partially also for Horn)

- Some parts of the B37/B38 road from Krems to Zwetll have 2+1 sections, and it is planned to extend that. Most settlements are bypassed, some intersections have been upgraded (e.g. Gföhl got a grade separation just last year), and Zwettl has a brand new and quite extensive bypass.

- A major decision would be the preferred route, indeed. Options are roughly:

-- As Michi described, along the B2, that is from Hollabrunn (terminus of S3) westwards via Horn. (red line) Could also take into account that the S3 is currently extended northwards to Guntersdorf (see https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/48.6413/15.9340)
-- Along the B4 from Stockerau north-westwards, that would be the most direct route (green line) for a route via Horn. However, the above mentioned upgrades to B4 are likely not useful for a motorway, and thus maybe even an obstacle.
-- From the terminus of S5 around Krems northwards via Zwettl (blue). In some reports, for this option proponents argue that it would not only provide a fast connection from the Waldviertel to Vienna, but also to St. Pölten (via S33), which is the (minute) capital of the state of NÖ- there might be a political factor to decide for this route. Besides this, the route would be a bit shorter, though a Krems bypass would be needed, and the last few kilometres of S5 towards Krems are currently 1+1. However, a route via Krems would allow to then reach Vienna either from the west via St. Pölten and A1, or from the north-east via S5 and A22.


----------



## Negjana

rudiwien said:


> The current status, roughly summarised
> He has retired last year, and the new leadership in the ÖVP, *which currently holds the absolute majority of seats, *seems more actively supporting an Autobahn.


Not for very much longer :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## MichiH

rudiwien said:


> -- Upgrades to A3 (Ostautobahn)


A4 



rudiwien said:


> -- S34 Traisental Schnellstraße (St. Pölten – Knoten St. Pölten/West (A 1) – south to Wilhelmsburg), which would partially also form a western bypass for St. Pölten


An incomplete bypass with regional benefit only. An additional "northern bypass" to S33 would have benefit for transit traffic too but I think that's not planned or even discussed at all.










https://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssich...afing-knoten-st-poeltenwest-a-1-wilhelmsburg/


----------



## Falusi

What about Oberösterreich?

The corridor between Braunau am Inn and A8 is already handling quite much traffic. Between München and Wien going through A94 - B148 - A8 is already the 2nd fastest road, but once A94 will be completed in a few years, it will attract even more traffic. Any plans there?
It seems to be that in the old times there was a motorway planned here, as there is a short motorway section around Ried.


----------



## MichiH

^^ No plans at all!

The project name was S9 Innviertler Schnellstraße if you wanna google for more info.


----------



## rudiwien

rudiwien said:


> A few pictures from around 3 weeks ago


Three (unfortunately rather low-res) photos from the construction of the S36 Murtal Schnellstrasse in and around Unzmarkt, with the tunnel through the town being the major component:

Retaining walls, at the north-east exit of Unzmarkt




Aerial shot of most of the north-eastern parts of Unzmarkt, and the retaining walls:


Construction is now running since 9 months (3,5 years total time scheduled), according to the December progress update, 2/3 of columns for the tunnel have been drilled, and for the southern tube, the ceiling has already been concreted. After that is finished, they actually dig the tunnel underneath, all to minimise the impact on the surface - which is in the centre of the town..


----------



## rheintram

News about S18 "Bodenseeschnellstraße"
http://vorarlberg.orf.at/news/stories/2891806/

Here are the main parts:
* A group of politicians from both Switzerland and Austria met. They all support connecting the two highway networks
* According to the original schedule the optimal route was supposed to be decided this year
* ASFINAG literally says "Optimizing the route is very complex", hence any decision will be delayed until early 2020


----------



## rudiwien

rheintram said:


> News about S18 "Bodenseeschnellstraße"
> * ASFINAG literally says "Optimizing the route is very complex", hence any decision will be delayed until early 2020



Could simply be a nice way of saying "low priority, no money, we'll do it later..."

--

Meanwhile, there is a list of all works that ASFINAG will start in 2018 and that cost more than 500,000 Euro, i.e. it includes also mid-size repairs etc, at https://www.asfinag.at/media/2763/projekte-ueber-500000-eur_baubeginn-2018.pdf

Some highlights:

- October 2018: Median seperation and widening of lanes to full motorway width on the S31, Burgenlandschnellstrasse, from Mattersburg to Weppersdorf: https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/50308#map=12/47.6492/16.4678
The road is currently a 2+2 w/o median separation, and slightly narrower lanes, with a speed limit of 100km/h.










By widening by 4,5 meters, they get to the separated, full width 2+2 lanes; still no emergency stopping lane, but some additional stopping bays. Speed limit is to stay at 100 km/h.
Some preliminary works were already underway in 2017, should be completed by 2021, except for two bridges, which will follow later. Approx 110 million Euro investment.
Interestingly, there is no project description of this on the ASFINAG website, yet.

- Sepetember 2018: S7 Fürstenfelder Schnellstraße, western section (2+2), Riegersdorf - Dobersdorf: https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3507179#map=13/47.0666/16.0629
Planned opening 2023. https://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssicherheit/bauen/bauprojekte/s-7-fuerstenfelder-schnellstrasse/

- January 2018: A5 bypass Drasenhofen, should open "second half of 2019". Many details posted in previous pages, see also https://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssich...rick-bis-poysbrunn-und-umfahrung-drasenhofen/

They started with clearing the construction site / cutting trees:









- January 2018: A7 bridge over the Danube in Linz - building of two "bypass" bridges, two lanes each, parallel to the existing bridge. They will be used while the main bridge will be refurbished. 

Timeline: bypass bridges until March 2020, refurbishment July 2022-September 2023

After the refurbishment, the bypass bridges will act as a kind-of collector road, carrying the traffic exiting or entering the motorway at the other side of the bridge.










https://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssich...-7-muehlkreis-autobahn-voestbruecke-bypaesse/


----------



## JackFrost

They should build a second carriageway on S4, and turn it into a full profile motorway.


----------



## celevac

JackFrost said:


> They should build a second carriageway on S4, and turn it into a full profile motorway.


Agree, that one is really annoying to drive!


----------



## rheintram

tv report (in German) about S18 Bodenseeschnellstraße:
http://tvthek.orf.at/profile/Vorarl...ker-aus-Schweiz-und-Laendle-fuer-S18/14226919


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## Corvinus

^^ Very interesting, that would be the long-desired expressway connection between Austrian and Swiss motorways on both sides of the Rhine. A tunnel under the river is also mentioned as one possible solution.

The report says there's no reason for euphoria though. The decision where and how to realize it will not come before 2020, and when the actual works could start can not be indicated at all. And then, for the Austrian side, they say, "we still live in a state of laws, and there will be people not in favor of this project, who can then take legal action against it, which may result in appeal proceedings of unknown duration".


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## ChrisZwolle

That last part is quite different from the Netherlands. In the Netherlands, once a plan is approved and published, people can make an appeal but the Council of State is required to issue a verdict within 6 months. They do not always make that deadline but few projects are delayed by more than 1 year. 

So there is no endless appeals and delays if people decide to take legal action against a proposed project. 

I think this is also not the meaning of environmental legislation: to give people a tool to block the project for years. The meaning is to implement an environmentally sound project as prescribed by law. You can never get every single person on board with a project.


----------



## MichiH

There's a bypass of a village in Germany which has been closed in 2017 because expropriation was illegal. It's a private road now. The bypass was opened in 2011.


----------



## rudiwien

@S18: If the decision for the exact route is done by 2020, then I think you can add approx. 5 years until all permits are final. But really, it doesn't surprise me that ASFINAG is playing this slow, costs according to the report are 600-900 million Euro, for 8 km of motorway. That's approximately 1/3 to 1/2 of what the Lobautunnel in Vienna under the Danube should cost, however, there we have 8,2 km tunnel under a national park - so the price tag for S18 seems really high, even if a section is made in a tunnel..
Personally, I'd really favour the tunnel solution, though 


@S4 - I don't think there is much initiative to upgrade that in the near future. For 2016, AADT volumes around Wiener Neustadt Süd are 23k vehicles, dropping to around 20k towards the eastern end. S31 doesn't have much more, but I guess it's considered more important for local politicians, as it is the "backbone" through the (northen half of the) state of Burgenland


@Michi: we have a similar case in Austria, on the B50, which connects A3 in Eisenstadt with the A4 around Neusiedl, where the bypass of Schützen am Gebirge (here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/47.8507/16.6390) has issues with expropriation. Basically, they built the bypass without a Umweltverträglichkeitsprüfung (UVP, the "big" environmental permit), and in the decision that they supposedly do not need the UVP, land owners wren't allowed to bring forward their statements. In 2016, this was concluded illegal, and 3 years time were given to fix the situation. So, it might end up similar as in Germany.. See e.g. https://kurier.at/chronik/burgenland/enteignungen-bei-umfahrung-schuetzen-aufgehoben/198.281.347


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## rudiwien

Two articles, in German, that talk about the potential extension of the A3 from the Eisenstadt A3 / S31 interchange to Klingenbach (border to Hungary, around here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/47.7811/16.5215), where it would connect to the Hungarian M85.

Quick summary of the articles - the new regional minister for transport in Burgenland, former minister of defense in the old government until December 2017, Hans Peter Doskozil, seems to bring this topic back and sees it as "given" that the extension will come, on an alignment next to B16:



The article states 2021 as a date for finalisation, so that already disqualifies itself, the route is not even set yet... you need to make that at least +5 years..

ASFINAG confirms that an extension "will be built". Some evaluation of impact on a roundabout on B16 will be done until spring (it is not clear to me how that is related to the A3; whether they want to evaluate whether that roundabout should be built at all, etc.. It is anyway not in the responsibility of ASFINAG..)


Meanwhile, people in the village of Großhöflein (seen north of the A3 / S31 interchange in the map above) want the (existing) motorway to be in a tunnel / enclosed to reduce noise (they fear increased traffic), but ASFINAG says that is too expensive, not justified, and would need to be covered by third parties. They can only get a noise-cancelling wall.


So, all in all, not much news on what and when would actually be built - but after years of silence, this topic really resurfaces now. And the local government seems to support it.

With M85 finalised in Hungary, this route would indeed become a popular alternative from Wr. Neustadt (or anywhwere south of Baden already) towards Györ, bypassing S1 and A4, so this likely would attract quite some transit traffic, even if the speed limit is slightly lower on M85 than on M1/A4.


Now, if you want to read the articles in German, they are below 


http://www.bvz.at/eisenstadt/strass...-ausbau-autobahnausbau-strassenbau/74.226.083, 17.1. 2018



> *Autobahn-Bau nach Sopron: A3 wird verlängert*
> 
> _Die Südostautobahn (A3) soll vom Knoten Eisenstadt bis nach Klingenbach und Sopron bis 2021 verlängert werden._
> 
> Die A3 soll in Richtung Ungarn ausgebaut werden. Vertreter der Bürgerinitiative Großhöflein befürchten eine Zunahme des Lärms und fordern daher eine Untertunnelung der A3 bei Großhöflein.
> 
> Unlängst ließ Straßenbaulandesrat Hans Peter Doskozil (SPÖ) aufhorchen. Er ist sich sicher, dass in den nächsten Monaten das Thema mit der Verlängerung der A3 Richtung Sopron „auf uns zukommen“ wird. Geplant ist eine Erweiterung vom Knoten Eisenstadt bis nach Klingenbach. Demnach soll die A3 entlang der bestehenden Bundesstraße B16 verlängert werden.
> 
> „Ungarn hat sich offensichtlich entschieden, die Umfahrung Sopron zu bauen. 2021 soll diese fertig sein“, betont der Straßenbaulandesrat und ergänzt: „Auf der anderen Seite fällt damit auf ungarischer Seite die Tonnage-Beschränkung und das ist schon eine Herausforderung, wie wir es schaffen, diese Transitroute, diesen Schluss mit der A3-Verlängerung mit Sopron zu machen. Aber so zu machen, dass die Gemeinden nicht belastet werden.“
> 
> *Evaluierungsverfahren dauert bis Frühjahr*
> Dass es zu einer Verlängerung kommt, wird vonseiten der Asfinag bestätigt. „Zur Zeit läuft noch die Evaluierung der verkehrlichen Auswirkungen für die Errichtung des Kreisverkehrs an der B16/L212. Mit Vorliegen von Ergebnissen wird im Frühjahr 2018 gerechnet“, heißt es von der Asfinag. Gespräche der Asfinag mit Ungarn haben bereits stattgefunden.
> 
> „Aufgrund der zeitlich versetzten Errichtung des österreichischen Projekts, wurde in den letzten Abstimmungen von ungarischer Seite in Betracht gezogen, das letzte Teilstück bis zur Grenze erst gemeinsam mit der Errichtung der A3 umzusetzen. Die M8 könnte zwischenzeitlich westlich von Sopron in den Bestand eingebunden werden“, wird von der Asfinag betont.
> 
> Eine Zunahme des Lärms wird hingegen von den Gemeinden Müllendorf und Großhöflein befürchtet. Nun fordert die Bürgerinitiative Großhöflein die Errichtung eines Tunnels. Die seit Jahren geforderte Lärmschutzwand sei nicht zielführend.



http://www.bvz.at/eisenstadt/grossh...ndheit-transport-verkehrsinfo-wien/76.551.729, 6.2. 2018



> *Lärmschutz an A3: Wenig Chancen für Einhausung*
> 
> Der Lärm der Südostautobahn (A3) sorgt seit Jahren für Ärger in der Gemeinde Großhöflein (Bezirk Eisenstadt Umgebung). Eine örtliche Bürgerinitiative wandte sich deswegen per Rechtsanwaltsschreiben an die Asfinag und forderte zwecks Lärmschutz eine Einhausung des Autobahnabschnitts. Der Autobahnbetreiber sieht in seinem Antwortschreiben aber wenige Chancen für eine Realisierung.
> 
> Die von der Bürgerinitiative Großhöflein geforderte "Einhausung in Form eines Tunnels in offener Bauweise" sei "mit wirtschaftlich angemessenen Mitteln nicht umsetzbar", teilte Clemens Mayr, Leiter der Konzeptiven Planung bei Asfinag Service, am Dienstag mit. Mayr verwies dabei auf die in der "Dienstanweisung für Lärmschutz an bestehenden Bundesstraßen" festgelegten Wirtschaftlichkeitskriterien. Diese Einhausung wäre daher "größtenteils von Dritten zu finanzieren".
> 
> Im Einklang mit den Richtlinien sei jedoch die Errichtung einer einen Kilometer langen und vier Meter hohen Lärmschutzwand möglich. Doch auch hier sei die Mitfinanzierung Dritter, etwa durch das Land oder die Gemeinde, notwendig. Dieser Beitrag würde bei Gesamtkosten von rund 800.000 Euro etwa 126.000 Euro ausmachen. Nichtsdestotrotz sei man weiterhin zu konstruktiven Gesprächen bereit, um eine für alle Beteiligten möglichst zufriedenstellende Lösung zu finden.
> 
> Man habe der Asfinag mehrere Terminvorschläge geschickt, erklärte Wolfgang List von der List Rechtsanwalts GmbH, welche die Bürgerinitiative vertritt. Die Aussage der Asfinag bezüglich Wirtschaftlichkeit sah er nicht als Absage. Er zeigte sich zuversichtlich, dass die Asfinag noch von der Notwendigkeit einer Einhausung überzeugt werden könne. Die Lärmschutzwand sei hingegen eine "Minimallösung" und stehe "nicht zur Diskussion".


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## ChrisZwolle

A tunnel near Großhöflein seems overkill for any noise problems. The nearest house is some 130 meters from the motorway and most of the actual town is more than 300 meters from the motorway. They could buid a noise barrier if needed, according to Google Earth satellite imagery from 2017, there is no noise barrier.


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## italystf

Any news about a future introduction of Google Street View?


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## JackFrost

I know this will remain a dream, but I wish they would connect S4 to A3.


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## feketevárosi

JackFrost said:


> I know this will remain a dream, but I wish they would connect S4 to A3.


Hi JackFrost,

I think that it would be an even better idea to extend S4 to the forthcoming west side bypass of Sopron, somehow like in the picture below.

Regarding to that the nearby villages (Ágfalva, Schattendorf) are already complaining about the increased commuter traffic, such an extension would be justifiable in my opinion. A well-built 2x1 way with increased speed limit would be feasible for this purpose.


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## ChrisZwolle

Apparently they are considering a 140 km/h trial on A1 in Oberösterreich, between Sattledt and Allhaming.

http://ooe.orf.at/news/stories/2894492/


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## Negjana

Saves an astonishing 20 seconds! Amazing, thats exactly what we need! :bash:


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## ChrisZwolle

I was looking at traffic data of S1 southeast of Vienna (A2 to A4). The traffic volumes are quite high for 2x2 lanes: between 80,000 and 85,000 vehicles per day, including up to 14,000 trucks (2016 data).

It appears that S1 has been undersized from the start. This portion of S1 opened to traffic in 2006, so it reached capacity within 10 years.


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## italystf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Apparently they are considering a 140 km/h trial on A1 in Oberösterreich, between Sattledt and Allhaming.
> 
> http://ooe.orf.at/news/stories/2894492/


It makes sense as this section is 2x3.
In 2006 they experienced a 160 speed limit on a section of A10.


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## Corvinus

ChrisZwolle said:


> A tunnel near Großhöflein seems overkill for any noise problems. The nearest house is some 130 meters from the motorway and most of the actual town is more than 300 meters from the motorway.


This. In Switzerland, with its general lack of habitable space, it's not uncommon to have entire residential streets running at 50-100 meters from a motorway. There are also apartment blocks so close to a motorway that the garden lawn is limited by the noise barrier wall at one side (which then also prevents pedestrians from actually walking onto the motorway).



ChrisZwolle said:


> Apparently they are considering a 140 km/h trial on A1 in Oberösterreich, between Sattledt and Allhaming.
> http://ooe.orf.at/news/stories/2894492/


This is excellent. Not because of the 10 km/h difference or the 15 seconds of time gain given by the Greens, but simply because of the signal effect: you *can* abandon the magical 130km/h motorway limit that has been in place for decades in much of Europe. Afterwards, Austria could join PL and BG with a motorway general limit of 140km/h. 

One day, a country will venture to implement a 150km/h limit on at least part of its motorway network. Italian road code already allows it for motorways meeting certain criteria, but this higher limit is not implemented anywhere hno:


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## rudiwien

ChrisZwolle said:


> I was looking at traffic data of S1 southeast of Vienna (A2 to A4). The traffic volumes are quite high for 2x2 lanes: between 80,000 and 85,000 vehicles per day, including up to 14,000 trucks (2016 data).
> 
> It appears that S1 has been undersized from the start. This portion of S1 opened to traffic in 2006, so it reached capacity within 10 years.



And that would even increase if the S1 is eventually extended to the other side of the Danube, and traffic from the A23 through Vienna moves there.

Also a conribution to the high amount of trucks could be the new rail terminal Inzersdorf (https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/266167188#map=15/48.1304/16.3782), which eventually will replace all freight train stations in Vienna (Wien Nordwestbahnhof was the last one still in use)

It seems however that most tunnels are built to a width that could take 3 lanes - e.g. it is actually 4 lanes just after the Knoten Vösendorf interchange with A2/A21 (https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=...&z=17&focus=photo&pKey=r8Jdf30wFVu6e5l47ERoiw), and 2 lanes plus an emergency strip that could potentially be used as 3rd lane, e.g. at https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=...&z=17&focus=photo&pKey=YHYPIFUwDZsijWUqlN91aA

But bridges are not necessarily prepared for that, e.g. at https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=...&z=17&focus=photo&pKey=_f360X2YLmx93Kq8jJPyQQ


---


Regarding the speed limit of 140 km/h - I honestly don't think it makes any sense. Pollution levels would increase unproportionally, and that is therefore just a wrong statement for enviromental reasons, and the time gain is minimal, there are anyways so few sections on Austrian motorways where you could actually make use of that limit...
This is just a stupid populist move for pleasing their supposedly very car-fanatic voters. (No, I am not a eco fanatic who wants to forbid new roads, on contrary. I just think that this move really makes no sense at all!)


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## Verso

The Slovenian transport minister was in Carinthia yesterday, talking about our preparations for construction of an expressway between Celje and Dravograd. I guess the point is to eventually build an expressway also on the Austrian side of the border between Dravograd (Lavamünd) and the A2 motorway.


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## rheintram

Some current statistics about traffic on *A14* and *S16* (increase since 2010)

A14 Dornbirn: 55.590 vehicles daily (plus 17.4 %)

A14 Schwarzach: 53.770 vehicles daily (plus 25.5 %)

A14 Koblach: 52.780 Kfz vehicles daily (plus 10.2 %)

A14 Bludenz: 25.860 Kfz vehicles daily (plus 6.3 %)

S16 Außerbraz: 13.370 vehicles daily (plus 5.3 %)

S16 Dalaaser Tunnel: 12.240 vehicles daily (plus 3 %)

Data compiled by VCÖ
http://vorarlberg.orf.at/news/stories/2899302/


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## Ronnie87

Corvinus said:


> This is excellent. Not because of the 10 km/h difference or the 15 seconds of time gain given by the Greens, but simply because of the signal effect: you *can* abandon the magical 130km/h motorway limit that has been in place for decades in much of Europe. Afterwards, Austria could join PL and BG with a motorway general limit of 140km/h.


Here in the UK we have a ludicrous speed limit of 70 mph (112 km/h) on motorways and dual carriageway trunk roads hno:


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## Blackraven

Nothing wrong with raising the speed limits imho.

Cars are safer these days compared to those built during the 20th century. Oh and not to brag, but personally I was able to go as far as 160 km/h (100 mph) during a test drive of the Peugeot 508 2.2 GT......and I'm just an amateur driver. The car is very stable at that speed.

The danger instead lies when you have slow drivers on fast/overtaking/passing lanes. Imho, that's what causes more road accidents and forces other drivers to do dangerous forms of overtaking (e.g. overtaking on passenger side or the weak-side or blind-side of other vehicles)


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## Penn's Woods

No one is actually “forced” to pass dangerously....


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## g.spinoza

Blackraven said:


> Nothing wrong with raising the speed limits imho.
> 
> Cars are safer these days compared to those built during the 20th century. Oh and not to brag, but personally I was able to go as far as 160 km/h (100 mph) during a test drive of the Peugeot 508 2.2 GT......and I'm just an amateur driver. The car is very stable at that speed.
> 
> The danger instead lies when you have slow drivers on fast/overtaking/passing lanes. Imho, that's what causes more road accidents and forces other drivers to do dangerous forms of overtaking (e.g. overtaking on passenger side or the weak-side or blind-side of other vehicles)


Cars are safer but I think that laws of physics stay the same...


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## italystf

Even if Austria will set the default speed limit at 140, probably most motorways would still have a lower limit than that. Most Austrian motorways are curvy, full of tunnels and 4-laned only. A sizeable part of the network has speed limits lower than 130 anyway. Moreover, the Greens would surely complain.


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## ChrisZwolle

I don't think there is much need for speed limits over 130 km/h. The actual travel time reduction is increasingly small due to the fact that you can't drive 140 or 150 non-stop on the motorway anyway. There are passing trucks, slower vehicles, reduced speed sections, construction zones, etc. 

Of course some people will explain how you can really reduce travel time with 180 km/h, at night when there is almost no traffic, during a season with no construction zones. But in practice most traffic is during the day and aforementioned obstacles will hinder traffic to really benefit from speed limits over 130.


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## rudiwien

Raising the maximum speed limit by 7.7% as in this proposal really makes no sense, for the reasons others wrote already - you won't be able to gain much on the few sections that will actually have this limit.

And yes, the risk of injuries from accidents increases disproportionately high with higher speeds. But as the FPÖ minister for health stated in the debate to cancel the forthcoming banning of smoking in restaurants and bars, they want to give the citizens the "Freedom to harm themselves" ("Freiheit, sich selbst zu schädigen") :bash:


Also compared to the test of 160km/h that the last FPÖ minister of transport introduced ~15 years ago, the potential for an increased speed limit is way less, as now compared to then, many sections have lower limits than 130, around many cities and on the A12 in the Inn valley you have 100km/h.


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## Grotlaufen

With this new "car-friendly" administration in place, has the possibility of a second tunnel tube in Arlberg and continuous 2+2 on S16 been increased? When it comes to the other road construction projects in Austria most are already in advanced planning stage (S18 to Switzerland, S10 to the Czech border, S34, A26 Linz, S1 with Lobau tunnel and S8 east of Vienna) or under construction (S3 Hollabrunn, S7 to Hungarian border, second tunnels in Karawanken and A9). Then there are the loose ends to some of the borders (A3 to Hungary, A5 and S10 to Czechia) which are in themselves also dependent on decisions on the other side. 


I just don't see which other "new" road projects the federal government could initiate here if they wish to promote themselves as a government of great road constructions (though I'd love to see the Innviertler-Autobahn/Schnellstrasse 2+2 reinitiated, esp. now that A94 on the German side of the border is almost complete).


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## rheintram

I posted the statistics on page 227: There really is no need for a 2nd Arlberg tube, from a capacity point of view. Safety is another question. The railways and autobahn tunnels were connected in recent years. So there is a quite large degree of safety in case of a disaster inside one of the tunnels. Obviously, that doesn't reduce the risk of frontal collisions etc. Yet I doubt it would be justified economically and traffic wise to add another tube.


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## ChrisZwolle

There is some congestion during the winter sports season, especially eastbound, the Dalaaser Tunnel also being a bottleneck. But I think many of those people are attempting to avoid the Fernpass. 

The Arlberg Tunnel counting station was inoperable in 2017, but the nearby Pettneu station recorded an average of 11,800 vehicles per day. However volumes may fluctuate, the average Saturday volume in February 2017 was 24,700 vehicles per day.


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> I don't think there is much need for speed limits over 130 km/h.


Why are Dutch increasing the limit from 120 to 130?



Grotlaufen said:


> I just don't see which other "new" road projects the federal government could initiate


- Expressway b/n German A7 and A12 (Fernpaß route)
- Waldviertelautobahn (Vienna - Ceske Budejovice/Budweis)
- S36/S37 north of Klagenfurt
- Eastern bypass of Linz
- Expressway Lienz - Spittal
- Another south-eastern Vienna ring in addition to S1?

I read about all projects in the past except of the last one.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> Why are Dutch increasing the limit from 120 to 130?


It was a wish of a party to legalize existing driving conditions. Average speeds did not go up noticeably, but there are fewer fines for going < 10 over the speed limit. Travel time savings are negligible.


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> It was a wish of a party to legalize existing driving conditions.


Quite similar to Austria.



ChrisZwolle said:


> Average speeds did not go up noticeably, but there are fewer fines for going < 10 over the speed limit.


:? I don't see any combination related to the discussion.



ChrisZwolle said:


> Travel time savings are negligible.


Sure.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

In the past there were lots of mobile speed cameras along 120 km/h motorways, with most fines issued to motorists going less than 130. Now that 130 km/h is the norm, the number of speed checks have been reduced on those locations (but increased along motorways with lower speed limits).


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## Corvinus

ChrisZwolle said:


> The actual travel time reduction is increasingly small due to the fact that you can't drive 140 or 150 non-stop on the motorway anyway. There are passing trucks, slower vehicles, reduced speed sections, construction zones, etc.


From my long-term Austrian experience, it appears on the six-lane Vienna-Linz motorway, travelling at 160km/h is fairly common practice and can well go uninterrupted for an extended period on the far left lane. Those driving at this pace aren't alone either, often there are packs of vehicles - formations of one "leader" and then others trailing him in a distance, trusting on getting warned in time of any speed traps on the way. I also regularly spot even faster ones passing by, going at 180km/h or more. Gastarbeiters in a hurry, or those with good local knowledge about (how to avoid) enforcement.

Naturally it's all different on all the curvy, hilly, four-lane mountain motorways that Austria also has. Vienna-Linz, however, appears to technically allow for 160km/h as safely as any German motorway. As an Austrian co-worker commented, "... they are driving at that speed anyway". Speed enforcement on that section is not abundant, as if authorities tacitly agreed to a "dynamic" flow of traffic there. 
For this motorway, a limit of 150 or 160km/h would very well make sense. Lost speeding ticket revenues could be compensated for by focusing more on middle-lane hoggers, aggressive/reckless drivers, tailgaters, those failing to use indicators, those texting on the phone, ... the list is endless.

Austrian speeding tickets are not expensive in an overall European comparison. For general-limit motorway sections, the driver's license is suspended when driving at least 180 km/h, thus 50 over the limit. Politicians have already announced that this 180 km/h would stay in place even in case of a new 140 km/h general limit, lowering the threshold for suspension to an excess of 40 then.


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## Grotlaufen

MichiH said:


> - Expressway b/n German A7 and A12 (Fernpaß route)
> - Waldviertelautobahn (Vienna - Ceske Budejovice/Budweis)
> - S36/S37 north of Klagenfurt
> - Eastern bypass of Linz
> - Expressway Lienz - Spittal
> - Another south-eastern Vienna ring in addition to S1?
> 
> I read about all projects in the past except of the last one.


I thought the "Alpenkonvention" from 1997 made a motorway of the whole Fernpass route impossible. But I guess opinion in Tirol decide if they change. 
The other projects sounds like reasonable proposals though. A Waldviertelautobahn coupled with construction on Czech side of the border would create the new main route between Vienna and Prague whereas A5 would take care of the traffic to eastern Czechia, Poland and to the Baltic Sea


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## Negjana

Nobody needs a Waldviertelautobahn! hno:


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## MichiH

Grotlaufen said:


> I thought the "Alpenkonvention" from 1997 made a motorway of the whole Fernpass route impossible. But I guess opinion in Tirol decide if they change.


Some long tunnels are discussed. Well, not 2x2 expressway but kind of "expressroad".

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernpasstunnel (groundbreaking 2021: https://www.meinbezirk.at/reutte/lo...d-ab-2021-gebaut-mit-video-clip-d2371903.html)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tschirganttunnel


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## rudiwien

Grotlaufen said:


> With this new "car-friendly" administration in place, has the possibility of a second tunnel tube in Arlberg and continuous 2+2 on S16 been increased?



As also rheintram mentioned, also I posted something about this a few pages back, ASFINAG just spent 150 million Euro to finish a safety upgrade last autumn. I don't think anyone thinks of upgrading that in the near future, for a price tag of maybe 500 million Euro? It just doesn't make sense to upgrade it for maybe 5-10 busy weekends (Saturdays) in winter season..



Grotlaufen said:


> When it comes to the other road construction projects in Austria most are already in advanced planning stage (S18 to Switzerland, S10 to the Czech border, S34, A26 Linz, S1 with Lobau tunnel and S8 east of Vienna) or under construction (S3 Hollabrunn, S7 to Hungarian border, second tunnels in Karawanken and A9). Then there are the loose ends to some of the borders (A3 to Hungary, A5 and S10 to Czechia) which are in themselves also dependent on decisions on the other side.



S18 and S10 have no route yet, so they are rather far away still. S34, S1 and S8 are still partially uncertain, enviromental approvals are not yet confirmed by the supreme courts.

A3 is special as here actually Hungary is more prepared to build, so this could be a project for the government to advance.

For A5, the plans for 2+2 expansion (after the Drasenhofen bypass) are ready, but I don't think you see this <10 years. S10 likely even later, because there is less traffic and desire from Austrian side.




Grotlaufen said:


> I just don't see which other "new" road projects the federal government could initiate here if they wish to promote themselves as a government of great road constructions (though I'd love to see the Innviertler-Autobahn/Schnellstrasse 2+2 reinitiated, esp. now that A94 on the German side of the border is almost complete).



That would likely be one of the most useful projects, to relieve A1 (and also the German A8) from Vienna-Munich traffic. I don't see it being possible at the originally planned route, though, maybe a shorter version closer to Pocking, maybe around Bad Füssen, could be envisioned.




MichiH said:


> - Expressway b/n German A7 and A12 (Fernpaß route)
> - Waldviertelautobahn (Vienna - Ceske Budejovice/Budweis)
> - S36/S37 north of Klagenfurt
> - Eastern bypass of Linz
> - Expressway Lienz - Spittal
> - Another south-eastern Vienna ring in addition to S1?
> 
> I read about all projects in the past except of the last one.



Eastern bypass for Linz already has a rough route set, see e.g. http://ooe.orf.at/news/stories/2693844/, so that is maybe realisitc to be started earlier than initially stated.

Waldviertelautobahn was strongly lobbied for by the FPÖ in that state, so that could be the project they could actually claim as "theirs", and thus it might have bigger chances than others. Others may decide whether it is useful or not, but for sure, finding a route that satisfies all the district capitals in Waldviertel will be difficult.. I guess no one wants to be left out, but you can't connect them all 

For Fernpaß, S37, Lienz-Spittal I don't see any chance, neither for another Vienna ring; the closest you could get to that is by extending S31 near Eisenstadt to A4.


The government wants to speed up the approval processes (by limiting some forms of objections), before they implement that, they couldn't implement any new idea within the timeframe of one parliament election cycle anyhow, so maybe they rather focus on other, more short-term actionable ideas. They'd love to abolish parking fees in places like Vienna, e.g...



Btw, I would not consider the previous government not car-friendly, many road projects have been started also by SPÖ governments. They were just not car-maniacs like the FPÖ is..


----------



## MichiH

The construction of the A5 Drasenhofen bypass will begin on 3rd April 2018. The bypass will be completed by the end of 2019 at the latest. Total costs (construction+planning) are 50 million €.

https://www.asfinag.at/ueber-uns/newsroom/pressemeldungen/2018/vergabe-umfahrung-drasenhofen/

*A5:* Drasenhofen-North – south of Drasenhofen 5.5km (April 2018 to Late 2019) [1st c/w] – project – map


----------



## g.spinoza

chemikerin said:


> This may be true - but has no Impact at all. The faster and convenienter people can travel, the more they will travel (e.g. going a 100km to work every day) - thus producing more CO2.
> the new and faster route may even be longer distance (e.g. going around the village instead of through the village)..
> 
> 
> but what is most important: the availability of motorways will prevent people from using public Transport which is far more climate friendly.


You clearly have no clue on what "climate friendly" means.


----------



## Verso

^^ Public transport is more climate-friendly, isn't it?


----------



## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> ^^ Public transport is more climate-friendly, isn't it?


Just locally. On the average it isn't.


----------



## Verso

Of course empty buses pollute even more than cars, but if there are more passengers, they are more environment-friendly.


----------



## Attus

I think it depends heavily on the way electricitiy is produced. In Austria is the proportion of hydro plants quite high, as far as I know so electrified railways (the major comuting lines around Vienna are all electrified) shall be actually climate friendly. 
Or is it a wrong idea?


----------



## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Pthe car share of passenger kilometers is more or less the same across Europe: around 80%.


Yes, it's true. However, in commuting in and around large cities the modal share may be pretty different and it may be flexible even inside a city. Vienna is known of having a very high proportion of public transport.
And for the life quality and life expectations of the city population the local emission may be very important.


----------



## g.spinoza

Attus said:


> I think it depends heavily on the way electricitiy is produced. In Austria is the proportion of hydro plants quite high, as far as I know so electrified railways (the major comuting lines around Vienna are all electrified) shall be actually climate friendly.
> Or is it a wrong idea?


The idea that hydro plants are climate friendly still sticks, I have no idea why.

Their energy is renewable, but not climate friendly. Artificial lakes act as a heat reservoir, re-emit more slowly than land and at lower wavelengths.
It is estimated they they are a major contributor to the local warming: for instance, glacier Marmolada is melting faster than the average due to lake Fedaia beneath.


----------



## Grotlaufen

Uppsala said:


> I have a question. There is still missing a motorway from Austria to Switzerland. There is no motorway from the Austrian A14 to the Swiss A13. Isa there any plans to buils that missing link?



Look at S18. The earliest point in time to begin the construction would be in 2021:

https://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssicherheit/bauen/bauprojekte/s-18-bodensee-schnellstrasse-knoten-dornbirn-bis-staatsgrenze-bei-hoechst/


The last plans were struck down by European Court of Justice in 2006 as it would have crossed a "Natura 2000"-bird habitat (planning of the route had begun before Austria joined the EU in 1995):
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodensee_Schnellstra%C3%9Fe


----------



## chemikerin

ChrisZwolle said:


> People are really not commuting as far as you imply, even with the availability of motorways. Only 5% of car commuting is over 50 kilometers. The vast majority of car commuting is under 20 kilometers (80%). This is a distance where public transport is least capable of offering competitive travel times.
> 
> It depends on your origin and destination in Wien or St. Pölten / Wiener Neustadt. If both are near a train station, the train is likely faster. However, the vast majority of car trips do not originate and end near a train station or a central district.
> 
> In some cases only the destination is in a central district. However most commuting by car does not end or begin in a central district at all, while public transport is mostly geared towards trips to the central district. Car trips are much more likely to be circumferential or tangential, which is typically poorly served by public transport.
> 
> Car trips are much mure diffuse and "criss-cross" than public transport, which is why there isn't much competition between both modes.
> 
> This pattern of car trips repeats itself all over Europe, which is why the car share of passenger kilometers is more or less the same across Europe: around 80%.



People are commuting longer and longer. This is not shown by your statistics. The change in commuting distance due to the building of better roads. It s not those who only go 5km a day which produce high CO2 emissions, but rather those who go farer distances: Therefore the aim should be to get those going farer distances on public lines.

And even if people are not living next to the train station, the aim should be that they go by car to the train station and by train to their final destination.... and they won't do that as long as they have a fast direct motorway to go from home to final destination.
Your description of commuting ways is indeed right, still it doesn't change the basic problem: if you build better motorways you will make a shift towards using cars....

And as to your 80% using cars in Europa: How come that Switzerland is different?

The best solution would be: impose CO2 emission fees on fuel prices. Things would change very quickly.


----------



## chemikerin

g.spinoza said:


> The idea that hydro plants are climate friendly still sticks, I have no idea why.
> 
> Their energy is renewable, but not climate friendly. Artificial lakes act as a heat reservoir, re-emit more slowly than land and at lower wavelengths.
> It is estimated they they are a major contributor to the local warming: for instance, glacier Marmolada is melting faster than the average due to lake Fedaia beneath.


Bullshit.
We have river power plants, that s nothing about artificial lakes!!!! And if lakes are such a problem, should we dry them?

As a chemist I think I do know what is climate friendly and what is not...


----------



## chemikerin

rudiwien said:


> Regarding your specific proposal, to extend S4 - I don't think this is any easier. It currently ends in "suburbs" of Mattersburg, there isn't any open space to go more south/east from there. And you actually do have a bit of hills around there as well:
> Everything that is flat terrain around is also not that much different than around the A3 - not really built up area, but villages around where locals would very likely protest.
> 
> So, I don't see any way how this is an easier route...


Well, you d only have to build a short tunnel surpassing Walbersdorf/Pöttelsdorf. In the case of A3 you will have to build a much longer tunnel from Wulkaprodersdorf to the border! that is 7km?


----------



## g.spinoza

chemikerin said:


> We have river power plants, that s nothing about artificial lakes!!!! And if lakes are such a problem, should we dry them?


This sentence is so badly written that means literally nothing.

How many river power plants are there in the world, compared to lakes and dams? Lakes are not the problem, artificial lakes are.



> As a chemist I think I do know what is climate friendly and what is not...


As a temperature metrologist, writing to you now from a GRUAN* meeting where I was invited, maybe I know what climate is.


*google that, maybe you'll learn something...



> Bullshit.


As I always say, the last resort of the stupid is insulting.


----------



## MichiH

chemikerin said:


> That is wrong. It is well known that commuting distances are determined by travel times. (typical Limit about 1h)
> And of course it is well known that traffic increases as soon as motorways are built, extended or whatever. All statistics undermine this rule.


I think you are right! However, (almost) everything else seems to be wrong.



chemikerin said:


> Accept the Facts!


The only one providing facts with source(!) was Chris 

Sure, I believe spinoza that he's in Potsdam - because he's an old hand here - but you have to prove first...


----------



## chemikerin

MichiH said:


> I think you are right! However, (almost) everything else seems to be wrong.


Thanks. ;-)
Well I am very convinced I am right.



MichiH said:


> The only one providing facts with source(!) was Chris
> .


Statistics are nice, but always have to be interpreted in the given context.... you know there is the saying "only believe those statistics that you faked yourself"

As to natural versus artificial lakes - what should be the physical / chemical difference between these? So if artificial lakes were relevant for the climate, natural would be just as well.


----------



## italystf

chemikerin said:


> Thanks. ;-)
> Well I am very convinced I am right.
> 
> 
> 
> Statistics are nice, but always have to be interpreted in the given context.... you know there is the saying "only believe those statistics that you faked yourself"
> 
> As to natural versus artificial lakes - what should be the physical / chemical difference between these? So if artificial lakes were relevant for the climate, natural would be just as well.


I though it was obvious... natural lakes are there since ever, so the nature surronding them has adapted to this climate and environment. Artificial lakes can suddenly change an existing equilibrium.


----------



## MichiH

chemikerin said:


> Statistics are nice, but always have to be interpreted in the given context.... you know there is the saying "only believe those statistics that you faked yourself"


TRUE!



chemikerin said:


> As to *natural versus artificial lakes* - what should be the physical / chemical difference between these? So if artificial lakes were relevant for the climate, natural would be just as well.





chemikerin said:


> looking at the rapid changes caused by climate *change* which already interfere with daily life


I think a natural lake which already existed 200 years ago has definitely changed less than an artificial lake built 50 years ago...



chemikerin said:


> expected to contradict any measures to reduce CO2 emissions and will lead to further traffic.


Breakthrough: new Bosch diesel technology provides solution to NOx problem

It's a press release though...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

chemikerin said:


> And as to your 80% using cars in Europa: How come that Switzerland is different?


Switzerland is at 75%, not really that different, and fairly similar to Austria at 78%. 



chemikerin said:


> The best solution would be: impose CO2 emission fees on fuel prices. Things would change very quickly.


Fuel is already heavily taxed in most European countries. Things did not change at all, except people having less money at their discretion to spend on other things. Electric car adoption will change that, but it's a slow progress from a low base level.

Travel is a result of spatial and socio-economic developments. In most cases, travel by car is the fastest and most convenient. In some cases, travel by train can be convenient, for example to a central district. People are well capable of deciding which form of transportation suits their needs best, they don't need someone to tell them how to live their lives.


----------



## Surel

ChrisZwolle said:


> Switzerland is at 75%, not really that different, and fairly similar to Austria at 78%.
> 
> 
> 
> Fuel is already heavily taxed in most European countries. Things did not change at all, except people having less money at their discretion to spend on other things. Electric car adoption will change that, but it's a slow progress from a low base level.
> 
> Travel is a result of spatial and socio-economic developments. In most cases, travel by car is the fastest and most convenient. In some cases, travel by train can be convenient, for example to a central district. People are well capable of deciding which form of transportation suits their needs best, they don't need someone to tell them how to live their lives.


Once electric car is adopted, we will get other sort of tax just in order to be able to fill the state treasury. Transport has always been one of the most easy to tax activities.


----------



## chemikerin

ChrisZwolle said:


> Fuel is already heavily taxed in most European countries. Things did not change at all, except people having less money at their discretion to spend on other things. Electric car adoption will change that, but it's a slow progress from a low base level.


Electric cars won't be the solution, as we won't be able to produce that much electricity on a renewable basis and the production of electric cars is much too energy intensive.
Furthermore our streets are already filled by traffic jams and further extensions of roads will cost too much land or just isn't possible (e.g. inside city centers)



ChrisZwolle said:


> People are well capable of deciding which form of transportation suits their needs best, they don't need someone to tell them how to live their lives.


So if you are of the opinion that people have the right to pollute the environment and to ruin the future of our children, just say it.
I just don't share your opinion.

Why not allow killing, stealing,..??? or stop collecting taxes, people don't want that....

Sorry, people DO need someone who tells them what is best in the long run.


----------



## MichiH

chemikerin said:


> Sorry, people DO need someone who tells them what is best in the long run.


Maybe human beings need human beings to tell them what should be best for them.

I don't think that nature needs to be rules by human beings. Nature will persist much longer than human beings. And change is natural! It's called evolution.


----------



## rudiwien

No current video or photos yet, but ASFINAG earlier in June opened the reconstructed "Hochstraße Inzersdorf" along the A23 in Vienna. Basically, they tore down an elevated motorway from the 70s, and replaced it with modern bridges, and partially rested it on dams. Finished 5 months ahead of schedule, they worked ~4 years on the main works on the motorway itself, and had ~4 years of preparation work (a new road underpass, a new railway tunnel to rest the motorway on, a temporary bridge, ...). This all while traffic was mostly keeping all the available lanes.
As a bonus, the road now is a bit wider, and finally features an emergency stopping lane. Feels much nicer to drive on!

This is the section, at https://www.google.com/maps/@48.1517221,16.3558376,1780m/data=!3m1!1e3




A video from the works organisation





And a few pictures during construction:


----------



## rudiwien

rudiwien said:


> A video from the construction of the tunnel under the town of Unzmarkt along the extension of S36 in the Mur valley. The video is supposedly from April, but only uploaded last week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Project details from ASFINAG: https://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssich...llstrasse-st-georgen-ob-judenburg-scheifling/
> 
> Openstreetmap: https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3421227#map=14/47.1858/14.4397
> 
> Construction is planned to be finished in Autumn 2020, so still some time to go....



Some more pictures from the site, which besides the tunnel under Unzmarkt include a bridge over the railway, and a relocation of the river Mur west of Unzmarkt. Source: https://gebr-haider.at/de/project/s36_unzmarkt_340


----------



## rudiwien

rudiwien said:


> No current video or photos yet, but ASFINAG earlier in June opened the reconstructed "Hochstraße Inzersdorf" along the A23 in Vienna.
> ...



Some pictures now from the renovated section (a few days before opening, but when all works were basically finished)














































And a video (in German) that shows some footage from a few days before opening:
https://www.w24.at/Meldungen/2018/6/Kaum-wiederzuerkennen-A23-bald-baustellenfrei?video=11496


ASFINAG mentions they managed to finish 5 months earlier than planned because they had favourable weather, and could work well also during all winters.


----------



## Vignole

Finally, Street View is legal in Austria. Will it also be in Germany without restrictions?


----------



## cinxxx

Hypothetical question: If someone would drive through the Pfändertunnel with an expired sticker (let's say one month ago), is there an electronic control system or do they stop and check you? Can someone from a patrol car see what exact date you have on the sticker?


----------



## rudiwien

https://www.asfinag.at/toll/service-and-controls/



> *Automatic toll sticker monitoring*
> 
> In addition to the manual control, toll stickers are monitored using cameras. If for reasons of road safety the toll control staff cannot stop vehicles, automatic toll sticker monitoring (AVK) is used (for example on multi-lane urban motorways). Nine camera systems are currently in use. The locations of the mobile devices change every seven to 14 days.
> 
> *This is how the "electronic eye" works*
> 
> The camera housing is installed above a traffic lane, from where it checks vehicles of 3.5t maximum permissible weight. The recording system identifies vehicles without a valid toll sticker. In suspected cases only, the system records and stores a large image that includes the number plate and a detailed image of the windscreen. The staff at the ASFINAG Enforcement Center then check these images again manually to make sure they are accurate.


So it is not very specific to where they do this, and the number of cameras is rather low, but yes, it might happen; and Pfändertunnel would be a prime candidate for a location...

Plus you might actually end up in a "manual" control, they do that sometimes on motorway exits (at the end of the ramp). Don't think they would check from a moving vehicle, though.


----------



## bogdymol

^^ That automatic toll sticker monitoring won't work well in case the windscreen is wet (rain), with snow or just dirty. A single drop of water can cover the area where the sticker is "punched", so you won't know if the sticker is valid or not.

It happened to me to go trough a "manual" control, at an exit ramp or at the border crossing to Hungary, but I think only once a year or so.


----------



## cinxxx

^^Another reason to completely switch to electronic system


----------



## Suburbanist

We need an EU wide car chipset ID standard for tolling, registration control and mandatory logging of all repairs (using NFC on chip plus readers on smartphones even small shops can surely afford)


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ how would you log repairs you do yourself?


----------



## rudiwien

Well EETS is proposed since a long time (and also mentioned here at various previous points in time), but it seems it is not so easy to provide a system that is compatible to ~hundred toll collectors (as there are several countries with several operators): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes/its/studies/eets_en

So, it might take a time. Even loner it would be if you now start to discuss that each car needs such a chip 

--

To be back on topic, yes, manual controls are rather rare. I have maybe been into ~3, and maybe seen a dozen more when passing by an exit ramp. So not often..


----------



## GCarty

chemikerin said:


> Electric cars won't be the solution, as we won't be able to produce that much electricity on a renewable basis and the production of electric cars is much too energy intensive.


In other words Austria and Germany (and to a lesser extent the rest of Europe) need to get over their phobia of nuclear energy, so they can generate non-carbon-emitting energy in the quantities that a modern technological society requires.


----------



## Verso

I've heard there's also a lack of resources needed for batteries, such as cadmium.


----------



## rudiwien

A visualisation of the S8 Marchfelder Schnellstraße, western sector, i.e. from the proposed interchange at Raasdorf (with also to-build S1) till Obersiebenbrunn, see https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/38710149#map=13/48.2831/16.6235 for a map


----------



## Grotlaufen

How is the planning for the eastern stretch of S8 to AT/SK border going? Are there any agreements signed between the governments, joint planning committees or such that could lead to a construction in a near future?


----------



## MichiH

^^ It was recently discussed in the SK thread starting here: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=149548179&postcount=4074

Is there any agreement? No!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*140 km/h*

Starting 1 August, a trial will commence on A1 to research the effects of a 140 km/h speed limit. 

The trial will be conducted on 120 kilometers of six lane A1, between Melk and Oed and between Haid and Sattledt. The raised speed limit will be in both directions. 

They will research;
* air quality
* noise
* average speed
* safety

Depending on the results, the experiment may be expanded to more motorway sections in 2019.

https://www.bmvit.gv.at/presse/aktuell/nvm/2018/20180724OTS0054.html


----------



## Negjana

Nothing but stupid populism.


----------



## satanism

Negjana said:


> Nothing but stupid populism.


More like legalising the status quo....


----------



## Negjana

Lets legalize the predominant "status quo" every year and in five years we have a limit of 200 kph. :bash:


----------



## General Maximus

Corvinus said:


> Has anybody taken a picture of the actual 140km/h signs on the test stretches?


I found one using Google Images:


----------



## rudiwien

Corvinus said:


> Part of an "actual strategy for mobility" is to remove obsolete/useless/outdated regulations that artificially and unnecessarily slow down the flow of traffic. All in all, that fosters economic competitiveness (even if for leftists, the latter never mattered much ...).
> 
> :banana:



It is a dumb strategy to, when it has been shown that the additional exhausts created by driving 10 km/h faster is unproportional higher, increase the speed limit when at the same time various goals for climate protection are regulated, and countries like Austria are far off from achieving them, and there are further constant violations on maximum pollution levels, especially around Graz. We don't have the frequent smog there anymore as it used to be ~20-30 years ago, but instead, it became the power house for aerosol particles...
But yeah, instead of doing anything towards tackling those issues, yeah, let's just do the opposite, revert back to a 1960s ideal of mobility. Mobility is much more than just cars, btw 

Can you please explain me the economic impact of IG-L? For freight traffic, there is no change in the speed limit. And the capacity of the road is actually higher at 100 km/h than at 130 km/h, and traffic jams are less likely at that speed. So that is actually a positive side-effect for trucks..

Believe me, I am also highly annoyed that I have to limit the speed to 100 km/h in those zones, if I wanted to drive 100 km/h on a motorway, I'd maybe spend more time in the USA or Australia... But that doesn't mean that it's a sensible strategy to revoke those limitations, while at the same time not doing anything else to offset any of those measures, despite being held accountable for that!

Along the same line, I do hate paying taxes. But lowering them without having a clear strategy for making up for that is something the voters would love, but it is obviously also not very rational...


----------



## Negjana

And you really think common Austrians can understand such facts, or even more support something other than anything for their own benefit? :lol:


"We are Austrians, we wanna drive faaaast, and we don't care about the environment anyway, because we wanna drive faaaast!" hno:


----------



## alex_la

140Kph is a nice travel speed. Here in California a lot of freeway traffic flows at that speed despite lower limits.


----------



## bogdymol

140 km/h is very useful especially during times with low amount of traffic or during week-ends when there are no lorries. During week-ends everybody drove 140 also before this new rule has been implemented. The new cars safely and relatively efficient drive for prolonged times at this speed.

In regards to traffic jams, in case of high amount of traffic, the travel speed will self-regulate anyway. Even before, with 130 km/h limit, during peak hours the traffic was going at 100-120 km/h (my personal observation).


----------



## sponge_bob

Rudi does have a good point about extra emissions for every extra 10kph you do. My car is very efficient carrying 4 people @ 110kph constant but it drinks diesel doing the same trip @ 120kph. 

I would assume it is spewing out more crap as it does so....a French engine you see. 

If the public were more aware of these sweet spots for fuel consumption they would take that as seriously as they do the actual speed limits.


----------



## General Maximus

In newer cars, I can't see it making any difference in emissions when driving 100, 130 or 140. Otherwise the Germans would have gone ape by now.

As much as I dislike Hofer, and his populist policies, I'm not going to attack him for the mere fact that he wants the country to move at reasonable speeds.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think it would be more beneficial to get rid of the IGL-100 zones if environmental standards are met, than 140 km/h on some motorways. 

In the Netherlands they raised the speed limit from 120 to 130 km/h in 2012, but I would've rather seen that they scrapped the many 100 km/h zones in rural areas in the west.

By the way some groups screamed bloody murder about the huge pollution effects of driving 10 km/h higher, but all their complaints were dismissed by the courts, the effects are very small and over a 10-year period NO2 and PM10 levels actually go down despite the higher speed limits.


----------



## rheintram

IG-L zones are mandated if the air quality doesn't meet a certain standard in a region. So obviously there is a correlation between exhaust fumes and air quality and speed. IG-L speed limits are not permanent and can be lifted, once the quality improves.

In other news: Test drilling/ground examinations for S 18 commenced. Apparently 180 different spots are being examined. Yet, no decision on the route has been decided. There are still two options: Dornbirn Süd exit - L 204 - new Lustenau bypass - St. Margrethen interchange or Dornbirn Nord exist - St. Margrethen interchange.
https://vorarlberg.orf.at/news/stories/2936145/


----------



## MichiH

General Maximus said:


> In newer cars, I can't see it making any difference in emissions when driving 100, 130 or 140. Otherwise the Germans would have gone ape by now.


My 2016 car consumes about 6..7l per 100km when I drive 130km/h on a motorway (abroad). It consumes > 20l per 100km when I drive 230+
The difference is small between 130 and 140 but the difference increases the faster you go.



rudiwien said:


> Besides the maybe common perception, I don't think *Germany is as eco-friendly* as they might seem. They didn't really put much penalties on all the car companies that were manipulating their emission tests (as, yes, obviously, the car industry is too important...), and on the other hand e.g, they still run a lot of coal powered plants (and have a major coal mining industry, still).


I agree in general, but please define "Germany". German inhabitants, German politicians, German lobbyists, German (automotive) industry,...?

Germany will not meet the CO2 goals the federal government has declared***. Germans still elect Green party (for protest), they would get about 16% according to the latest opionion polls.

German automotive industry is quite important in the world. Engine pollution is continuously being improved. Fining these companies could also lead to a lower investment for improvements.

Nevertheless, it's a long, long way till all "old and dirty" cars will be gone. Old cars are exported from e.g. Germany to Eastern Europe, Russia, Africa,... Climatic change is a global problem, not just a local or regional problem. And it's not just caused by vehicles but also by heatings or coal power plants which are still quite common in Germany.


***An important part of the strategy was increasing the number of Diesel engines, which causes a much bigger problem now. Maybe it had be better for the environment if there had been no CO2 goal................. Hinterher ist man immer schlauer  - afterwards, you always know more / better.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

CO2 is a greenhouse gas, but their emissions are not regulated along motorways. What counts are NOx and PM10 emissions, which contribute to NO2 and PM10 levels. However it's not a one-on-one effect, 10% higher emissions from cars doesn't mean air quality is impacted by the same amount, since there are many more sources. In valleys like the Inntal atmospheric inversion and pollutants from Germany are a major factor for the local air quality. 

In the Netherlands in 2009-2010 there were trials on a motorway where on days with poor air quality the speed limit would be reduced from 120 to 80 km/h with heavy police enforcement. It resulted in no demonstrable improvement of air quality. This was called "Dynamax" (Dynamic Maximum Speed). It was tested on a few other locations but not rolled out on a large scale due to the unproven benefits.


----------



## General Maximus

Yes, France reduces its speed limits from 130 to 110, and where 110 limits apply they reduce it to 90. 

Belgium reduces it to 90....

Have they actually tested this to see if it helps?


----------



## General Maximus

So, the State of Tyrol is getting increasingly worried now with Hofer's new plans. And they've come up with this diagram:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The figures shown there are not relevant for air quality standards on which speed limits are based. The speed limits on a motorway are not based on emissions, but on the concentrations (levels) of air pollutants, i.e. the number of micrograms per cubic meter. (µg/m³).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A11 Karawanken*

A groundbreaking ceremony was held today to mark the beginning of construction of the second tube of the 7.9 kilometer long Karavanke Tunnel at the Slovenian border (A11-A2). 

The timeline:
* 2018: start of construction
* 2022: breakthrough
* 2024: opening of first tube, start renovation existing tube
* 2026: full 2x2 capacity

https://www.asfinag.at/ueber-uns/ne...8/tunnelanschlag-vollausbau-karawankentunnel/


----------



## belerophon

ChrisZwolle said:


> A groundbreaking ceremony was held today to mark the beginning of construction of the second tube of the 7.9 kilometer long Karavanke Tunnel at the Slovenian border (A11-A2).
> 
> The timeline:
> * 2018: start of construction
> * 2022: breakthrough
> * 2024: opening of first tube, start renovation existing tube
> * 2026: full 2x2 capacity
> 
> https://www.asfinag.at/ueber-uns/ne...8/tunnelanschlag-vollausbau-karawankentunnel/


Well its a good thing, but 8 years.... hno:


----------



## Don Alessandro

Comparing it to some construction time tables in Germany it's a really quick one considering the amount of work


----------



## MichiH

^^ Also compared to other similar projects in Austria or Switzerland.


----------



## MichiH

The contract for the first A26 section in Linz was awarded to a Austrian-Italian consortium. The contract value is 133 million €. Works will be started this year. See press release.

*A26:* Linz-Danube-North – Linz-Danube-South 0.9km (October 2018 to December 2023) – project – map
*A26:* Linz-Danube-South – Linz-Waldegg-Street 3.2km (February 2024 to December 2028) – project – map
*A26:* Linz-Waldegg-Street – Linz-Union-Street 0.6km (January 2029 to December 2031) – project – map


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That is only 3 years after the groundbreaking ceremony of 5 July 2015 where they claimed the bridge would be under traffic in 2018. :lol:

https://www.land-oberoesterreich.gv.at/Mediendateien/LK/SPWestring03072015Internet.pdf

Asfinag now characterizes that work as "preparatory", but they literally stated:

Der erste Bauabschnitt – vor Errichtung des Tunnels Freinberg und neuer Westbrücke beim Anschluss an die A 7 – ist eine zusätzliche Donauquerung westlich der überlasteten Nibelungenbrücke. 2018 soll sie unter Verkehr gehen.​


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A9:* Tunnelkette Klaus 8km (September 2013 to Late 2018) [2nd c/w] – project – map


There will be a test for emercency forces on 17th November. It's reported to happen "gut 1 Monat vor Verkehrsfreigabe" = a little bit more than 1 month before opening for traffic. Source.


----------



## General Maximus

rudiwien said:


> I wouldn't say that IG-L speed limits are not "mostly in Tirol", just Graz and surroundings has an almost equal share of Autobahn kms affected by IG-L... But that's bean counting


No, but Tirol has a permanent "Luft-Hunderter" from Kufstein border to Zirl.
Sorry for the late response...


----------



## rudiwien

A mini update on S7, which will connect from A2 via Fürstenfeld towards the Hungarian M8 (currently under construction).

The article @
https://www.meinbezirk.at/hartberg-...geht-es-ans-eingemachte_a3047556#gallery=null basically says that

- Earthworks continue at the Riegersdorf interchange (https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=remote#map=14/47.0947/16.0211)




















- The sections tunnel Rudersdorf and for bridges Lafnitztal have been awarded, and construction there should start in spring / summer 2019

- Expected opening is 2023


----------



## celevac

rudiwien said:


> - The sections tunnel Rudersdorf and for bridges Lafnitztal have been awarded, and construction there should start in spring / summer 2019
> 
> - Expected opening is 2023



Oh my goodness. If German motorway construction wasn't even slower, this one should get the award for slowest construction of a section in relatively easy terrain. hno:
I don't know why these things should take four years!? Also, shouldn't they have started years ago? :bash:


----------



## rudiwien

celevac said:


> Oh my goodness. If German motorway construction wasn't even slower, this one should get the award for slowest construction of a section in relatively easy terrain. hno:
> I don't know why these things should take four years!? Also, shouldn't they have started years ago? :bash:



Yes, it should have started years ago, but plan approvals (Umweltverträglichkeitsprüfung) was very slow, and it was roughly end of 2017 when all approvals had been granted.

There was in 2015 a kick-off event, but that was weeks before local elections, and the only thing done then was widening a bridge on the existing A2, which was anyway being renovated, but the widening is needed for the Riegersdorf interchange, so it was somehow possible to sell this as "start of construction".. *Actual* works on the new road only started this year.

In general easy terrain, yes, except for the ~3km tunnel in Rudersdorf, where they have rather soft rock to work with, they expect this to be slower than if they could blast the rock.
While easy terrain, enviromental aspects made another tunnel of 1km necessary, so while this otherwise could be done in 24 months, this adds a bit of time I guess.

And then the other reason is of course financial, so it will be stretched over a longer time period, so that's how we end up with ~5.5 years of construction time; as the eastern part will be finished in the same time frame, that is at least 28 km duration..


----------



## General Maximus

*"Glocknerkreis"*

Tyrol's first turbo-roundabout in Nussdorf-Debant opened on Tuesday after a construction period of seven months. The intersection measures a stately 55 meters and has cost around 1.3 million euros. The estimated construction costs were met.


----------



## General Maximus

*Arlberg Tunnel's 40th anniversary*

40 years ago, on 1 December 1978, Austria's highest-ranking politicians opened the Arlberg Tunnel. More than 2,000 visitors celebrated the release of the world's longest road tunnel at that time. (13,972 meters).


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## celevac

A9: The Klaus tunnels will be opened on December 20th! There is a ceremony this Friday Dec. 7th with politicians, but the public has to wait another 13 days. Good news that it will be before the Christmas traffic kicks in. Well done Austria.

https://www.nachrichten.at/oberoest...-die-Engstelle-der-A9-Geschichte;art4,3080671

More good news from A9 motorway: Gleinalmtunnel will be open for traffic again this Saturday, if everything goes as planned. 

https://www.heute.at/oesterreich/st...langer-Sperre-wieder-offen-Lkw-Brand-51855993


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## rudiwien

Time-lapse video, made by ASFINAG, of the construction works of the new VOEST bridge in (A7 Mühlkreisautobahn, here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/48.3181/14.3004):






Not much has happened yet.. But this is how it shall look like once it's finalised in 2023:










More info: https://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssich...-7-muehlkreis-autobahn-voestbruecke-bypaesse/


----------



## rudiwien

For S7 Fürstenfelder Schnellstraße (to connect A2 to the Hungarian M8), there is a video from ~2 years ago, but I haven't seen it before (and it is not linked from the ASFINAG page, at least not now), so it might be new for most of us  
(You need to open the video in Vimeo, direct playback is not allowed unfortunately)

https://vimeo.com/171302391

171302391


----------



## rudiwien

Not too much visual material, just one lousy image ....
but https://www.meinbezirk.at/mistelbach/c-lokales/umfahrung-drasenhofen-im-zeitplan_a3093069 reports that the works on the extension of A5 Nordautobahn (from north of Poysdorf to the border with Czechia, built initially as half-profile) is on schedule.
Even a severe winter wouldn't delay the opening in autumn 2019.
Earthworks are completed, and works on pilots are progressing, and 3 out of 6 bridges have beams up.


----------



## rudiwien

rudiwien said:


> Time-lapse video, made by ASFINAG, of the construction works of the new VOEST bridge in (A7 Mühlkreisautobahn, here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/48.3181/14.3004):
> 
> ...
> 
> More info: https://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssich...-7-muehlkreis-autobahn-voestbruecke-bypaesse/



And a new video by ASFINAG, a few different perspectives on works that have happened in 2018 on the VOEST bridge. The 







The bridge works you see at around 0:22, and then again at ~2 minutes in are in the north-western access, here: https://www.google.com/maps/@48.3222233,14.2966758,378m/data=!3m1!1e3, the ones at 1:20 are in the south-eastern access, here: https://www.google.com/maps/@48.3163695,14.3047781,226m/data=!3m1!1e3


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> The contract for the first A26 section in Linz was awarded to a Austrian-Italian consortium. The contract value is 133 million €. Works will be started this year. See press release.
> 
> *A26:* Linz-Danube-North – Linz-Danube-South 0.9km (October 2018 to December 2023) – project – map


The project page reports that last appeals have been rejected in late October and "main works" will begin on 7th January 2019 but some preliminary works are already done this year.



> Zwischenzeitlich wurde auch die durch Bürgerinitiative beim Verwaltungsgerichtshof beantragte Revision zur Errichtung der A 26 am 27. Oktober 2018 zurückgewiesen. Somit sind alle höchstgerichtlichen Verfahren rund um den Linzer Westring rechtsgültig abgeschlossen.
> Die *Hauptbauarbeiten werden ab 07. Jänner 2019* in Angriff genommen, allerdings werden noch heuer erste bauvorbereitende Maßnahmen durchgeführt.


----------



## rheintram

S16 Perjentunnel, second tube will be opened for traffic tomorrow. However, once the second tube is open, the old one will be closed and renovated.

https://tirol.orf.at/news/stories/2953540/


----------



## MichiH

celevac said:


> A9: The Klaus tunnels will be opened on December 20th! There is a ceremony this Friday Dec. 7th with politicians, but the public has to wait another 13 days. Good news that it will be before the Christmas traffic kicks in. Well done Austria.
> 
> https://www.nachrichten.at/oberoest...-die-Engstelle-der-A9-Geschichte;art4,3080671
> 
> More good news from A9 motorway: Gleinalmtunnel will be open for traffic again this Saturday, if everything goes as planned.
> 
> https://www.heute.at/oesterreich/st...langer-Sperre-wieder-offen-Lkw-Brand-51855993


It will be opened one day earlier. Tomorrow at 5AM!

https://www.asfinag.at/ueber-uns/newsroom/pressemeldungen/2018/a-9-tunnelkette-klaus-freigegeben/


----------



## tehnik

Is there any forum following work on Karawankentunnel on Austrian side ?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Asfinag has installed 3 digital vignette terminals at the Kiefersfelden rest area (on the A93-A12 border crossing from Germany). This means you can purchase the vignette and videomaut for A13 (if needed) and drive to Italy without having to apply the vignette sticker or stopping at the A13 toll station.

In contrast with a purchase over the internet, the digital vignette purchased at one of the terminals is valid immediately. 

>> https://www.asfinag.at/ueber-uns/newsroom/pressemeldungen/divi-automaten/


----------



## stickedy

At Internet you have to choose that you are owning a business.


----------



## rheintram

Test drillings for S18 conducted near Lustenau (this particular drill is for the CP variant)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*STOP*

A full stop on A10 at Flachau due to avalanche control.


----------



## MichiH

rheintram said:


> S16 Perjentunnel, second tube will be opened for traffic tomorrow. However, once the second tube is open, the old one will be closed and renovated.
> 
> https://tirol.orf.at/news/stories/2953540/


The renovation completion of the 2nd tube and putting both tubes into service was scheduled for late 2019 when works began in 2015 but it's delayed to March 2020 now according to the project page.


----------



## rudiwien

As almost every time with snowfall, there were issues with the A21 Wiener Außenringautobahn, and it had to be closed on January 5th for the entire stretch (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/48..../@48.1117702,16.0365446,12z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0).

Once there was some (unexpected?) snowfall, many cars with summer (!) tires, and trucks that didn't use chains, got stuck. As usual, people were surprised by the mountainous motorway, which mostly follows a design from the 1930s, and has inclines of up to 5,2%. With the increased traffic due to people returning from holidays, traffic jams quickly formed.
And in that slow traffic, also the snowplows couldn't operate anymore, so they had to close the entire motorway....










See e.g. https://noe.orf.at/news/stories/2957016/


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## ChrisZwolle

I haven't been to that part of Austria yet, but isn't A21 the only portion of the Germany - Hungary route that is really mountainous?


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## ntom

Hilarious, unexpected snow in Austria, in January! Very reminiscent of some of years ago in Kosovo, with incompetent authorities, when the snowfall would catch all maintenance contractors unprepared. Nowadays it's generally good though in all national and regional roads, let alone motorways. ASFINAG, you're fired!


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## cinxxx

I always hated that road, it was always very windy, steep. Last times I drove there I chose the S33+S5+A22 combination


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## da_scotty

How is the road network coping? I believe there is nearly 3m of snow predicted?


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## ChrisZwolle

Last Saturday was a total disaster with complete gridlocks and hours of delays near Bregenz, Fernpass, Kufstein and Salzburg, with several towns and villages being inaccessible by avalanche danger.


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## KingNick

ChrisZwolle said:


> I haven't been to that part of Austria yet, but isn't A21 the only portion of the Germany - Hungary route that is really mountainous?


A21 is the steepest Autobahn in all of Austria.


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## bogdymol

A21 is located in a strange place. 

It is often that in Vienna, on A1 or on A4 the weather is good, but on A21 is raining or there is even snowfall, which disrupts the usual traffic flow. There is often a lot of traffic (including a high share of lorries - mostly in tranzit), and the motorway has a lot of curves and steep ascents or descents (although there are only slightly larger hills around, you feel like in a mountain pass - it has 6 sections with additional climbing lanes for heavy traffic - that's a lot for such a short motorway located in a hilly region). 

All these combined, make A21 a motorway prone to issues.


----------



## Verso

cinxxx said:


> I always hated that road, it was always very windy, steep.


Sounds exciting compared to the rest of the Munich-Timişoara motorway.


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## MichiH

A21 is 2x2 only. Is it planned to be upgraded to 2x3? AADT is about 50,000 vehicles/day with almost 20% truck share.


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## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> A21 is located in a strange place.
> 
> It is often that in Vienna, on A1 or on A4 the weather is good, but on A21 is raining or there is even snowfall, which disrupts the usual traffic flow. There is often a lot of traffic (including a high share of lorries - mostly in tranzit), and the motorway has a lot of curves and steep ascents or descents (although there are only slightly larger hills around, you feel like in a mountain pass - it has 6 sections with additional climbing lanes for heavy traffic - that's a lot for such a short motorway located in a hilly region).
> 
> All these combined, make A21 a motorway prone to issues.


Is it worse than A2? I find it hard to imagine.


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## MichiH

^^ Worse? A2 is more hilly for sure and much longer in mountainous terrain.


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## ChrisZwolle

I once (2009) drove A2 from Graz to Klagenfurt. It's very curvy and has some steep sections, I don't know the exact percentages though. There wasn't much traffic when I drove there.


img 487 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## MtGrz

There is some problem with maintenance of highways in Austria. State of S1 and A5 was pretty bad, lots of snow and only 2 snow plows, even it was about 12:00. And there was no such a problem in Czech Republic.


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## KingNick

A21 eastwards is great in the late evening when the city lights up.


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## rudiwien

A few pictures from works on S3 Hollabrun - Guntersdorf (towards Czechia, here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/48.62502/16.08544), from ASFINAG, taken in November & December (but published only today).

A finished bridge over the railway, approx here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/48.62502/16.08544


And various pictures from earthworks:








(project is 2+1, completion 2020: https://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssich...er-schnellstrasse-hollabrunn-bis-guntersdorf/)


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## rudiwien

An updated visualisation from ASFINAG on the proposed route for the S36 between the current western end in Judenburg and the currently under construction sections between St. Georgen - Unzmarkt, approx here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3421227#map=13/47.1899/14.5969






They plan to start environmental approval procedures (UVP) by the end of the year, and construction to happen between 2023 and 2028; https://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssich...ellstrasse-judenburg-st-georgen-ob-judenburg/
UVP is as always a very uncertain factor, even though there are recent changes to the law aiming at making "projects of national importance" faster in the approval, but it is unclear yet how that will impact the overall duration.

From the visualisation, it becomes obvious that in such narrow corridors like the Mur valley, the only projects that are going to be accepted by politicians and the population are expensive tunnel solutions.
This explains the 320 million price tag for 12 km of road. Most tunnels are going to be cut and cover, similar to the current projects in St. Georgen and Unzmarkt, where they dug beneath the current national road, in the middle of the towns..


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## g.spinoza

Some of them look unnecessary, especially around Schütt and Wöll. There is a lot more space between the villages and Mur river.


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## rudiwien

^^

Well, there is no tunnel around Schütt, at least 


For Wöll, yes, there would have been more space, but very soon east of Wöll, there is very little space due to a bend of the river, so that would have required quite some curves to bend around Wöll. And in any case likely some earthworks and/or structures, as there is a small plateau (2-3 contour lines as seen on the map below) to navigate around.

If you look at the visualisation, you can actually see that there is an embankment to raise the level of the road, and when the road enters the tunnel, it is still at a lower level than the town:





So this is an *actual* tunnel 


Also take a look at Google Maps Relief (https://www.google.at/maps/@47.206102,14.5343777,15z/data=!5m1!1e4):



The existing national road is already higher up the hill from before.

I am aware that you could likely do still cheaper by building the road in a (smaller) bend and some earthworks to level it; but the rational postulated by the design is to not introduce another dividing element, and to follow as much as possible the existing corridor.

(For Pichl & St. Peter, bypassing the settlements with a descent distance would mean as well going very close to the Mur, or as in some earlier studies, to actually build on the other side of the river, the idea of which was however (I think rightfully) abandoned)


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## g.spinoza

^^ I was thinking about a couple of bridges over the Mur: they should be less expensive than tunnels.


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## rudiwien

They might be less expensive, but I think the tunnel solution is the best from impact on the landscape, so I am quite happy that they chose this route.

I think there were never much other options discussed in that area, only in the eastern-most section near Judenburg, several variants were proposed, as you can see in the (unfortunately low-res) image below:



The route that initially stays north of the river, in a tunnel, to join the current route only west of St. Peter was initially the preferred one, but that idea was abandoned a couple of years ago.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Snow on trees? No problem, just use a Blackhawk helicopter! :nuts:


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## KingNick

You can't really argue the effectiveness. :lol:


----------



## bogdymol

I never seen this before, but might not be the first time this method is used. I heard today on the radio, in both Germany (Bavaria) and Austria that they are using this technique in multiple places in both countries.


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## KingNick

I couldn't think of a better alternative tbh.


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## g.spinoza

As we say in Italy when something disproportionate is indeed effective, "it's like shooting a pigeon with a cannon"...


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## ChrisZwolle

The Fernpass is announced to be closed for at least 4 days due to extreme snow conditions. It is announced to be closed from Friday late evening into Tuesday evening between Bichlbach and Lermoos. There is no local detour available. 2 meters of snow has already fallen and another meter is forecasted from tomorrow.


----------



## rudiwien

bogdymol said:


> I never seen this before, but might not be the first time this method is used. I heard today on the radio, in both Germany (Bavaria) and Austria that they are using this technique in multiple places in both countries.



ASFINAG said they had used this method already 8 years ago, see (in German) https://www.asfinag.at/ueber-uns/newsroom/pressemeldungen/2019/hubschrauber-einsatz-a-12/

However, it is not clear from their statement if that usage 8 years ago was the only instance before, or whether it was simply the first of many since..

It might be a drastic solution, but considering the amount of snow that has fallen (in some places up to 3 metres), it seems like it is actually required, before the trees all fall..


https://tirol.orf.at/news/stories/2958046/ says they also used the helicopter to clear the snow from high-voltage power lines:


----------



## ntom

Kudos to the pilots, it's at least somewhat dangerous flying that close without bad weather.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Wien*

Is this normal traffic in Vienna on a Monday at 5 p.m.? There is almost no congestion. The TomTom Congestion Index ranks Vienna relatively high.


----------



## 1080

I would say this is a bit below average. The most likely explanation is the snowfall this morning, there was severe congestion on most routes to Vienna, some people probably took PT or stayed at home today.
Vienna is most congested in pre-Christmas season and on "secondary" city roads who aren't shown at this zoom level.
According to my experience congestion in Vienna is very low in comparison to similar cities.
The last official traffic count stated that traffic in (central) Vienna is on the decrease, see  (page 14-17, german only)


----------



## rudiwien

In addition to the comments of 1080 - if there is no accident on the A23 (Südosttangente), then what you see in orange/red along that route is the usual hotspots - before the "Knoten Prater" and "Knoten Kaisermühlen" motorway/motorway interchanges (maybe it is a bit worse in some days, but not dramatically).
If there *IS* an accident at Knoten Prater, which happens ever so often, the red section will extend southwards in bad cases towards Knoten Inzersdorf or even more.

And the "Gürtel" is as usual mostly orange/red. So it is not that green either..


In the morning, A21 was actually blocked for vehicles >3.5t - they had to go along A23->A22->S5->S33->A1 near St. Pölten, which is a huge detour if you wanted to go A1 <-> A2 (not that bad, or actually recommendable, if you wanted to go to A1<->A5)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A26 Linz*

The construction of the new bridge across the Danube in Linz has officially commenced today. It is a part of A26.

It's a very unusual suspension bridge, there won't be any conventional bridge pylons, but the cables will be anchored into the mountainside. I'm not sure if there is any similar bridge in Europe or even the world. I can't think of any offhand.


----------



## g.spinoza

Not identical but there's the Luitpoldbrücke in Passau:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*traffic volumes*

Asfinag has published traffic volumes for the year 2018: https://www.asfinag.at/verkehr/verkehrszaehlung/

The top 5 are all A23 segments in Vienna.

The busiest segment: A23 Wien/St. Marx: 201,200 vehicles per day.

The next busiest motorway is A2 at Biedermannsdorf: 180,800 vehicles per day


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> The next busiest motorway is A2 at Biedermannsdorf: 180,800 vehicles per day


You mean 165,791.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

No 180,800. 

165,791 is the weekday average. 180,800 is the workday average (Monday-to-Friday), which are more representative for actual traffic flow on most motorways where capacity requirements are based on (but not all, like the Brenner Pass).


----------



## Verso

Other countries count whole week, don't they? It's not comparable then.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It varies. If available, workday volumes are generally a better indication, except for routes that carry very seasonal or frequent recreational traffic.


----------



## MichiH

I agree that it's likely better to assess the situation but it's common to use AADT. And you wrote "per day", not "per workday". It's just misleading...


----------



## General Maximus

Not only that, but let's take the A12 for example. You've got commuter traffic on weekdays, when it gets busy especially around Innsbruck, but never quite fully congested.

Then you've got the weekly Saturday gridlocks in winter typically between Wiesing and Kufstein...

And then you've got summer holiday traffic crossing the Brenner. 

This makes it very hard to have a daily AADT estimate.


----------



## rudiwien

^^

Well Chriss specifically mentioned Brenner as the exception.

To get the full picture, AADT is obviously never enough, you may need other statistical moments like variance to maybe capture differences between days and seasons on a still very high level, or you provide both workday and weekend day AADT, or you then divide that even further into (non)holiday seasons, but even if you provide more details, it still is difficult to compare the actual usage of two motorways..

But definitely for A2 close to Vienna and the A23, weekday stats are the most interesting ones!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Does anyone know (or can take an educated guess) why so many exits in Austria were built as trumpet interchanges? I scoped a few Autobahnen and they are quite common. Some were obviously part of a larger scheme but many others are just ending on a secondary road.

Did they plan a toll system similar to Italy in the past? Trumpet interchanges for regular exits are usually associated with toll roads. I think it wasn't copied from Germany, they have used much fewer trumpet interchanges for normal exits.


----------



## General Maximus

I think it is just the way they design things. It's also the reason that Austria has a frightening amount of "Geisterfahrer" (motorists driving the wrong way on the motorway) on their Autobahns. 

Most of the junctions also don't have displacement surfaces like you see in other countries. I have noticed that they are being phased out in the Netherlands as well, and being replaced with a open triangle.












In the Netherlands like this, but without the white in the triangle.


----------



## belerophon

Additionally there are a lot of exits, where it is only possible to built the exit more on one side of the motorway due to the geology (mountains on one side). But in this cases there would some other variants still be possible too.


----------



## bogdymol

According to this news article, a new bypass road should be built for the small town of Haid. There will be also a new motorway exit from A1 & A25 directly to this new bypass road.

There are 26.000 vehicles who use daily the current A1 motorway exit at Haid. This is because of a large shopping center & IKEA next to this exit which attract a lot of traffic from the area, and also because this exit provides connection to B139 road which also has a very high traffic amount. Especially on busy times there is bumper to bumper traffic from the shopping area just south of A1 until north of those 2 twin roundabouts north of Haid, so the new bypass will help a lot.

According to that article, this road has been first discussed in 1958, so 60 years ago! If approved, the costs are estimated to 84M € and construction should start in 2021.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*S8 Marchfeld Schnellstraße*

Environmental approval has been received for the first stage of S8 east of Vienna (S1 - Gänserndorf).

>> https://www.bmvit.gv.at/service/presse/aktuell/nvm/2019/20190417OTS0019.html


----------



## JackFrost

With that project realised, Slovakia definately needs a motorway between Bratislava and Sturovo.


----------



## RipleyLV

JackFrost said:


> With that project realised, Slovakia definately needs a motorway between Bratislava and Sturovo.


As M1 alternative from Budapest to Wien?


----------



## rudiwien

It took almost 8 (!!) years to get the environmental approval (UVP) in this first stage. Appeals are absolutely certain, that can easily add 2-4 years until things are legally certain.

So enough time for Slovakia to indeed build something.. Especially considering that this project is only the western part of the S8 towards Marchegg (Bratislava by extension), so don't expect the full project to be anywhere ready before 2030 maybe..


----------



## MichiH

rudiwien said:


> Especially considering that this project is only the western part of the S8 towards Marchegg (Bratislava by extension), so do*n't* expect the *full project* to be anywhere *ready before 2030* maybe..


I guess "ready" should mean that building permits are legal?

I think it's possible that the first section might be completed by 2030. It was planned to be built from 2021 to 2023. If we add your "2-4 years" delay due to complaints, to might be opened in 2027/28. There is currently no schedule for the second section up to Slovakia. The "8-year EIA period" has not yet began.


----------



## rudiwien

With *full* project, I mean the *eastern* part to be completed as well to have the *complete S8*.

For that, I would not expect the EIA to take anywhere near that long (also because they drastically changed / want to change the EIA legislation, where they are IMHO overshooting what should be changed).
But I think that first, all the permits for S8 and S1 (which is a requirement also for S8, otherwise it is not connected to the current network...) need to be in place, before they will want to proceed with that.

I would expect the western part to be in operation <=2025. Building should indeed be rather easy, they already did archaeological investigations (and found a lot of interesting artefacts from the Napoleonic wars..), there isn't significant wood clearing needed, so not many things that would add additional delays or introduce timing constraints (clearing is only allowed in autumn/winter, e.g.).
But still, once the EIA is legal, they also need more permits (building permit, permits concerning nature and water aspects, ...), which can take a bit more time (but nothing as long as the EIA), that might add another year or so.
I think ASFINAG has been a bit overwhelmed with the number of projects for which they had to obtain permits for (S1, S8, S3, S34, A26, ...), each of which took much more detail than they initially had prepared, thus also the long time (not only due to appeals etc., but really due mainly to insufficient preparation!)


----------



## italystf

Is S8 expected to connect with D2 north of Bratislava?


----------



## rudiwien

With what is currently called D4, but yes, see e.g. 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/46714192#map=12/48.2577/16.8335

(Though the final route isn't really fully decided!)

The full route of S8 as it currently is envisioned:


(mind the missing gap in the east towards A23/S2, that is done via the S1 (to the north-west) and a connection road from S1 to the A23, see https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3507985#map=12/48.2191/16.5506:


----------



## Qwert

JackFrost said:


> With that project realised, Slovakia definately needs a motorway between Bratislava and Sturovo.


Slovakia is already building expressway from Bratislava to Dunajská Streda. The problem is it is not supposed to continue to Štúrovo in the future.  It is however possible there will be a branch to Štúrovo, but I'm not sure I will be alive to see that. :hahano:


----------



## JackFrost

This means, soon there will be three routes west of Gyor to Vienna, but only one to Budapest. hno:

I would be happy if they build this expressway to Komarom. Better than nothing.


----------



## MichiH

JackFrost said:


> I would be happy if they build this expressway to Komarom. Better than nothing.


I've never heard about an expressway to Komarom. Slovakian R7 - as a continuation of the Austrian S8 and Slovakian D4 - is the only planned expressway of the area. The section u/c will end west of Dunajska Streda and it will potentially be extended to Nove Zamky which is about 30km north of Komarom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R7_expressway_(Slovakia)#/media/File:Expressway_R7_SK_map.svg


----------



## rheintram

Brand new video of snow plowing at the Großglockner Hochalpenstraße


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Asfinag*

Asfinag published its 2018 annual report. 


* € 2156 million toll revenue (+6,2%)
* € 1465 million truck toll revenue (+6,9%)
* € 691 million passenger car toll revenue (+4,6%)
* € 502 million vignette toll revenue (+2%)
* € 189 million Sondermaut revenue (+12,3%)

There were 27.2 million vignettes sold in 2018, -0.7%. 

The traveled distance increased by 2.8%, of which cars were +2.4% and truck +5.6%. Total traveled distance on the Asfinag network is 32.45 billion kilometers.

Toll revenue per kilometer
* Cars: € 0.02
* Trucks: € 0.38

The strong increase in 'Sondermaut' revenue was likely due to the reopening of the Arlberg Tunnel, which was closed during much of 2017.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've been looking into the Saturday-Sunday driving ban in Tirol, but it appears the situation is more nuanced than the German media reports. For example the Bayerische Rundfunk has a map of closed roads in Tirol and shows all B-routes in the state.


German politicians - especially CSU party leaders - and German media have a different view on it. They claim that it's especially against toll avoidance traffic (and congestion avoidance) and that secondary roads are affected (but not the old Brenner route).



ChrisZwolle said:


> In fact none of these routes are affected by the ban, according to the press release by the state of Tirol. The bans only affect some secondary L-roads around Innsbruck.


I think that's true. I'm not on-site and can just check info on internet.



ChrisZwolle said:


> If you look at the press release (posted by MichiH), it appears that traffic can use any B-road in Tirol to avoid traffic jams on the Autobahn, for example B182 from Innsbruck to the Brenner Pass.


In addition, German and Austrian media reports that all A12 exists from Zirl to Hall (I think it's from 3 exits west of A13 and to 4 exits east of A13, a distance of 20km) are closed for transit traffic. There are police check points and people must enter A12 again if their destination is not anywhere there. That's not mentioned in the press release but seems to be true!


To be honest, the situation is not clear!

From Tyrol media:



> Seit Fronleichnam gilt ein temporäres Fahrverbot auf Tirols Landstraßen, die von Urlaubern zur Umfahrung der Staus oder zur Vermeidung der Maut auf den Autobahnen genutzt werden


They also report that toll avoidance is a thing but they mention it after congestion. They do not report - like Germans - that the problem is caused by the construction sites! Construction sites are an exception, different to the past and indicates that the driving ban is just intended to be a temporary thing!



> Im Zuge der geplanten Maßnahmen wurden auch die Autobahnabfahrten im Großraum Innsbruck für den Durchgangsverkehr gesperrt, erklärte LH Günther Platter (ÖVP) am Mittwoch.


The closure of motorway exits around Innsbruck was obviously announced by Platter on Wednesday but it was just not mentioned in the press release.

The Bavarian Minister of Transport is complaining that it's chicanery and that the EU commission should stop it.



> Der FPÖ und der Liste Fritz gehen die Fahrverbote nicht weit genug. Die Freiheitlichen forderten am Donnerstag die Ausweitung der Maßnahmen auf den Bezirk Kufstein, die Liste Fritz kritisierte Ausnahmen für das Wipp- und Stubaital.


Austrian politicians request more measures. They critisize "exceptions for Wipptal and Stubaital". They are south of Innsbruck. Do they wanna the old Brenner route too?



> Für Liste Fritz-Klubobfrau Andrea Haselwanter-Schneider kommen die Fahrverbote auf den Bundes- und Landesstraßen „reichlich spät". Und offenbar sei Schwarz-Grün nicht an einer Lösung für alle Tiroler interessiert. Nur so sei es nämlich zu erklären, dass das Wipp- und Stubaital von den Fahrverboten ausgenommen wurde.


She talks about driving bans on federal and state roads. The press release does indicate state roads only. *It seems that even Austrian politicians don't know what's happening and Austrian media is reporting it. I'm not surprised that German media is also publishing (partially) wrong info!*


I think that the problem is major. It's not just about the current situation but includes the geneal Alps transit problem, Brenner railway plans (Germany is planning nothing or too slow for completing the route), German car toll, Austrian car toll,....


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> German politicians - especially CSU party leaders - and German media have a different view on it. They claim that it's especially against toll avoidance traffic (and congestion avoidance) and that secondary roads are affected (but not the old Brenner route).
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's true. I'm not on-site and can just check info on internet.
> 
> 
> 
> In addition, German and Austrian media reports that all A12 exists from Zirl to Hall (I think it's from 3 exits west of A13 and to 4 exits east of A13, a distance of 20km) are closed for transit traffic. There are police check points and people must enter A12 again if their destination is not anywhere there. That's not mentioned in the press release but seems to be true!
> 
> 
> To be honest, the situation is not clear!
> 
> From Tyrol media:
> 
> 
> 
> They also report that toll avoidance is a thing but they mention it after congestion. They do not report - like Germans - that the problem is caused by the construction sites! Construction sites are an exception, different to the past and indicates that the driving ban is just intended to be a temporary thing!
> 
> 
> 
> The closure of motorway exits around Innsbruck was obviously announced by Platter on Wednesday but it was just not mentioned in the press release.
> 
> The Bavarian Minister of Transport is complaining that it's chicanery and that the EU commission should stop it.
> 
> 
> 
> Austrian politicians request more measures. They critisize "exceptions for Wipptal and Stubaital". They are south of Innsbruck. Do they wanna the old Brenner route too?
> 
> 
> 
> She talks about driving bans on federal and state roads. The press release does indicate state roads only. *It seems that even Austrian politicians don't know what's happening and Austrian media is reporting it. I'm not surprised that German media is also publishing (partially) wrong info!*
> 
> 
> I think that the problem is major. It's not just about the current situation but includes the geneal Alps transit problem, Brenner railway plans (Germany is planning nothing or too slow for completing the route), German car toll, Austrian car toll,....


All you have to do is lie about your destination.


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> All you have to do is lie about your destination.


I read (cannot find the article now) that police which controls vehicles exiting Autobahn will check it. I remember something like "we'll ask at the hotel reception whether there is a reservation". It was also reported - no idea if it's right - that it's not allowed to ext because you are hungry, have to pee et cetera. It should fine if you wanna go sightseeing or hiking - no idea how it should be checked by police.

German Bavarian politicians call it "discrimination" and "heavy impact on European traffic".


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> I read (cannot find the article now) that police which controls vehicles exiting Autobahn will check it. I remember something like "we'll ask at the hotel reception whether there is a reservation". It was also reported - no idea if it's right - that it's not allowed to ext because you are hungry, have to pee et cetera. It should fine if you wanna go sightseeing or hiking - no idea how it should be checked by police.
> 
> German Bavarian politicians call it "discrimination" and "heavy impact on European traffic".


What if I don't have a reservation? Back in the days we used to travel without reservation, and once on site we asked directly at hotels if they had rooms left. Isn't that allowed anymore?
What if I don't want to go to a hotel, but I'm just there for the day?
I agree, this is discrimination, it goes against free (not in the sense of "gratis") travel. Plus, I don't think they can do that for all the cars exiting the motorway, or the queues would be apocalyptic.
I think it's stupid, illegal and not enforceable.


----------



## italystf

MichiH said:


> I read (cannot find the article now) that police which controls vehicles exiting Autobahn will check it. I remember something like "we'll ask at the hotel reception whether there is a reservation". It was also reported - no idea if it's right - that it's not allowed to ext because you are hungry, have to pee et cetera. It should fine if you wanna go sightseeing or hiking - no idea how it should be checked by police.
> 
> German Bavarian politicians call it "discrimination" and "heavy impact on European traffic".


I think that banning non-locals (passenger vehicles, not trucks) to drive in certain areas (except historical city centres or nature reserves), or asking drivers to tell their destination, is something that should be banned by EU laws.
Considering the rise of authoritarian parties in some European countries, this may become a dangerous toll to control people's movement in certain areas.
That's not the case of Austria now, but this one can be a dangerous precedent.
Imagine a political protest in a city in a corrupt Eastern or Southern Europe country. The government may want to restrict non-residents to access the city claiming fake "traffic congestion problems", to keep the unrest hidden from national or international attention.


----------



## MichiH

Well, politics.

The most interesting point for me is:



MichiH said:


> Press release
> The Government has sent data to GPS operators so that the roads will be indicate being closed.


Is it allowed by (EU?) law* to force GPS operators to do so?
Would GPS operators agree?
Could it work?
Could locals get "normal" data?

And just a stupid question, *who* are these "GPS opeators"? Do they mean Waze, Google and Here?
How to ensure that all are get data?

*Edit: This could even help, for instance if authorities could sent data with temporary(!) construction detours et cetera. to avoid thinks like "please U turn" on motorway.


----------



## rudiwien

MichiH said:


> Für Liste Fritz-Klubobfrau Andrea Haselwanter-Schneider kommen die Fahrverbote auf den Bundes- und Landesstraßen „reichlich spät". Und offenbar sei Schwarz-Grün nicht an einer Lösung für alle Tiroler interessiert. Nur so sei es nämlich zu erklären, dass das Wipp- und Stubaital von den Fahrverboten ausgenommen wurde.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She talks about driving bans on federal and state roads. The press release does indicate state roads only. *It seems that even Austrian politicians don't know what's happening and Austrian media is reporting it. I'm not surprised that German media is also publishing (partially) wrong info!*
Click to expand...


Well, there is a slightly tricky thing with Austrian roads - the *only * federal roads that we have are the Autobahn and Schnellstraße (A, S), which are legally the same, there is no distinction between them in any law.

Roads that are called a B (Bundesstraße) are in fact administrated by the states, since 2002; see (in German) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesstraßen_in_Österreich and https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_ehemaligen_Bundesstraßen_Österreichs

So, there should be no "Fahrverbot" on "Bundesstraßen", because that would mean a traffic ban on A12/A13 and other motorways (+express ways).


You have a useful map from the ÖAMTC at https://www.oeamtc.at/verkehrsservice/?region=at-7&view=verkehr; the map is a bit small, but the list is I think complete and correct.
There is an interactive map at the Ö3 radio station, they generally provide the best radio based traffic info in Austria, at https://oe3.orf.at/verkehr/
The map seems also accurate in where the markers are positioned, but not exactly in what marker is put, because they also put a "traffic ban" marker on the Europabrücke on A12, where the text then actually just reads "construction, 2 lanes of reduced width available". So, they are missing a proper marker for construction sites.



In general, I do think that this traffic ban is terribly confusing. I think it is however merely a symptom of >=30 years of delayed activities to solve the issue of crossing the alps in Tirol by other means than motor vehicles, coupled with the lack of means of enforcing a certain mode (i.e. they still didn't manage to make rail more attractive, and they can't make trucks more expensive than now to make rail appear more attractive). And yes, I guess a bit of frustration about German lack of determination to solve the rail connection from the border to Munich might play another part.


However, it does make sense to try to keep the impact of transit traffic off from small villages, but concentrated on the motorway.
Also, the ban is not discriminative per se - if you are an Austrian going from Kufstein to Brenner, you would also not be allowed to bypass to local roads. However it is likely easier for an Austrian to convince the police checking them that they are using it for local purposes, so that's where the discrimination will come through in practice.


----------



## MichiH

rudiwien said:


> Roads that are called a B (Bundesstraße) are in fact administrated by the states, since 2002


I know this quite well but I'm quite sure that Austrian politicians, media and many of their readers do not know that. And only Landesstraße B roads are signposted, I think virtually no one is aware of the Landesstraße A numbering. And I think that she meant Landesstraßen B wenn she said "Bundesstraßen". And there is just no ban for Landesstraßen B. Of course, Germans are just more confused!



rudiwien said:


> In general, I do think that this traffic ban is terribly confusing. I think it is however merely a symptom of >=30 years of delayed activities to solve the issue of crossing the alps in Tirol by other means than motor vehicles, coupled with the lack of means of enforcing a certain mode (i.e. they still didn't manage to make rail more attractive, and they can't make trucks more expensive than now to make rail appear more attractive).


I agree! It's not just a temporary situation but a general problem not being solved for decades!



rudiwien said:


> And yes, I guess a bit of frustration about German lack of determination to solve the rail connection from the border to Munich might play another part.


Yep! There was the same yelp when "LKW Blockabfertigung" was introduced on A12 at the German border so that only a defined maximum number of trucks per hour is allowed to enter Austria but nothing happened. Germans complaint but didn't get off their butt and did anything about ail connection et cetera.

It's reported that the Ministers of Transport already had scheduled two meetings about that in the next four weeks. I think that the current move is just the next step of escalation / pressure. More and more Germans are affected now. Maybe it helps but I doubt that German politicians will move.



rudiwien said:


> However, it does make sense to try to keep the impact of transit traffic off from small villages, but concentrated on the motorway.


Of course. That's why I'd like to see a new motorway from Reute to Imst (Fernpass route) :lol:



rudiwien said:


> Also, the ban is not discriminative per se - if you are an Austrian going from Kufstein to Brenner, you would also not be allowed to bypass to local roads. However it is likely easier for an Austrian to convince the police checking them that they are using it for local purposes, so that's where the discrimination will come through in practice.


Yes, it's not discrimination of foreigners but discirmination of non-locals.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think it's a bit of 'panic mode' after the huge gridlock due to construction on A13 in the first half of June. 

Today's problems are exacerbated due to GPS devices calculating alternate routes over goat paths and country roads. Some of the roads they mentioned are only for local access, built for maybe 300 vehicles per day, not a massive amount of holiday traffic. 

Additionally, I think you have to consider the burden this puts on the local population. I drove A13 last week and there were almost no Austrian plates. The vast majority were Germans. It's one thing to have it deviate over B-roads, but another to have them clog up all kinds of secondary roads, making villages inaccessible for half the day (including for emergency services). 

So far I think the Tirol government list is the most accurate data available. Journalists copy other journalists, this is why inaccuracies and misrepresentation of reality are perpetuated in the media, as most 3rd or 4th hand reporting doesn't check the original source, they just copy other media. Additionally, many politicians aren't always very well informed about their own policies.

In the Netherlands, the public broadcaster NOS called it a measure against 'toll refugees'. Those people clogging up secondary roads are not avoiding tolls, but the massive congestion on A12 and A13. For example today there was no major flow of holiday traffic going south and both A13 and the secondary road system remained uncongested for the most part. Only minor congestion occurred at the A13 construction zones, not enough to deviate a large amount of traffic to B182 or other roads.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> For example today there was no major flow of holiday traffic going south and both A13 and the secondary road system remained uncongested for the most part. Only minor congestion occurred at the A13 construction zones, not enough to deviate a large amount of traffic to B182 or other roads.


So what? Secondary roads (Landesstraßen *A*) are "closed" today. Today's southbound traffic is not relevant here.

And if we had the same situation last week, transit traffic using secondary roads had likely been "toll refugees". Check your last sentences


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't understand what you are saying exactly. 

These measures are rolled out due to the anticipated holiday traffic deviating from the motorway, which happens to have been minor today. 

Any large-scale deviation of traffic in this area is due to congestion, not tolls. Sure there are some people that avoid the tolls and take B182, but this typically doesn't result in unbearable gridlock. That only happens when A13/A12 gets clogged up to the point of 1.5+ hour delays, like in early June.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Never mind

Meanwhile, German media reports that Governor Platter said to the Austrian news agency APA that they will also *restrict transit traffic at "Reutte" and "Kufstein"*, the "entrances" from Germany. It will be decided next week when the ban will be introduced.

https://www.br.de/nachrichten/meldu...e-auf-kufstein-und-reutte-ausweiten,300217414

I could not yet find any Austrian source, e.g. nothing on https://www.apa.at/

opcorn:


----------



## MichiH

It's also reported that *ALL* vehicles leaving the motorway around Innsbruck are currently stopped and asked where they are going to.

About Reutte / Kufstein, it's quoted that "ban extension to Bezirk Reutte and Bezirk Kufstein" is planned (Bezirk = district).


----------



## sponge_bob

MichiH said:


> Meanwhile, German media reports that Governor Platter said to the Austrian news agency APA that they will also *restrict transit traffic at "Reutte" and "Kufstein"*, the "entrances" from Germany. :


This could merely be the Austrians _encouraging_ the Germans to build a proper base tunnel between Munich and Innsbruck, seeing as they have just, themselves, started to drill the main bore of the Brenner Base Tunnel in the last 2-3 weeks, all 37km km of it. Encouragement comes in many forms. 

As it now stands the rail network from Innsbruck to Munich will still be fairly crap in 2026 when the Brenner Base Tunnel is supposed to open.


----------



## MichiH

^^ I think that's exactly the main issue. Austria Tyrol is currently preparing the coming talks with German and Bavarian Minister of Transport


----------



## sponge_bob

I'm glad I suggested a simple explanation. 🙂


----------



## MattiG

MichiH said:


> Well, politics.
> 
> The most interesting point for me is:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it allowed by (EU?) law* to force GPS operators to do so?
> Would GPS operators agree?
> Could it work?
> Could locals get "normal" data?
> 
> And just a stupid question, *who* are these "GPS opeators"? Do they mean Waze, Google and Here?
> How to ensure that all are get data?
> 
> *Edit: This could even help, for instance if authorities could sent data with temporary(!) construction detours et cetera. to avoid thinks like "please U turn" on motorway.


Isn't quite evident that they mean those organizations delivering traffic information? They want them to flag those lower roads nonpassable. Do not get stucked in inaccurate terminology.


----------



## sponge_bob

MattiG said:


> Isn't quite evident that they mean those organizations delivering traffic information?


So they are asking for the EU to mandate Google Maps to check the US GPS system for a precise location and then to flag roads at these locations 'out of use' when Austria wants them to be out of use. 

This is an interesting one and there is no EU law (directive) in place to make this happen right now even though it is technically fairly trivial UNLESS an exemption is ALSO sought for registered Google users in Austria.


----------



## rudiwien

sponge_bob said:


> So they are asking for the EU to mandate Google Maps to check the US GPS system for a precise location and then to flag roads at these locations 'out of use' when Austria wants them to be out of use.



I think the point is not the GPS system (i.e. the system that gives you your geo location), but the sat-navs. And they want the sat-nav operators (google maps, here map, tom-tom, etc..) to pick up these road closures as to not route via these routes. Like they would pick up any road closure for construction etc, or roads closed for certain types of vehicles, etc..


----------



## rudiwien

MichiH said:


> I know this quite well but I'm quite sure that Austrian politicians, media and many of their readers do not know that. And only Landesstraße B roads are signposted, I think virtually no one is aware of the Landesstraße A numbering.



There is no "Landerstraße A" in Tirol - The non-B are called "L". In Vienna, they are called "Hauptstraße A" (but they don't call it "Landes", even though Vienna is a Land... it is also a Gemeinde), but I think most other provinces call it "L".

They are generally signposted:









There is thus in Tirol:
- Bundesstraße A (Autobahn, Schnellstraße)
- Landesstraße B (former Bundesstraße, still called like that..)
- Landesstraße L (list of those: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Landesstraßen_in_Tirol)


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## rudiwien

Yes - but still a lot of people used it, that was my point (roughly 1/3 of the course were sent back there, which I consider a lot given that this is an exit into almost nowhere..)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is a huge truck queue in the Innsbruck area. Based on Asfinag webcam images, the LKW-Stau starts somewhere near Wattens on A12 and ends on A13 south of Innsbruck, making the queue as much as 20 - 25 kilometers long.

Google Maps doesn't accurately display this because car traffic can bypass much of the congestion by using the left lane.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Linz*

The government of Upper Austria (Oberösterreich) will select the preferred alternative for the eastern bypass of Linz. Media report this will be a motorway, no number has been mentioned. 

The selected alternative is an intermediate variant that will relieve A7 from traffic while not being too far out of the way for traffic to the north. A variant close to Linz would best serve urban traffic while a variant farther out would likely attract insufficient traffic from A7 to make it cost-effective.

Most of it will be tunneled, the northern tunnel would be almost 6 kilometers long.









Source: https://www.meinbezirk.at/oberoeste...nverordnung-fuer-linzer-ostumfahrung_a3477144


----------



## KingNick

According to a study of the Verkehrsclub Österreich (VCÖ) for the first time last year more alpine cargo transit rolled via Brenner than over Switzerland and France combined.

http://translate.google.at/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.vcoe.at


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Brenner Pass has taken the brunt of the traffic growth across the Alps, it is the easiest route and lacks the high tolls or hassle that a trip through Switzerland has. 

I drove from Brixen to Innsbruck two weeks ago and the volume of trucks is quite high, I saw a long LKW Stau on the Italian side and the images above show that this is not an uncommon occurence apparently, so I understand the hesitation of Tirol to facilitate even more truck traffic. 

It seems unclear what would reduce this materially (not a few percentage points). It's a game of introducing the most restrictions and highest tolls. The Gotthard Base Tunnel has yet to yield any noticeable results on Swiss A2. It seems unclear to what extent truck traffic would switch from road to rail once the Brenner Base Tunnel is complete. Forecasts may be too optimistic, a modal shift and reduction of truck traffic is much more difficult to achieve than just build new rail infrastructure.


----------



## celevac

ChrisZwolle said:


> It seems unclear what would reduce this materially (not a few percentage points). It's a game of introducing the most restrictions and highest tolls. The Gotthard Base Tunnel has yet to yield any noticeable results on Swiss A2. It seems unclear to what extent truck traffic would switch from road to rail once the Brenner Base Tunnel is complete. Forecasts may be too optimistic, a modal shift and reduction of truck traffic is much more difficult to achieve than just build new rail infrastructure.



In the end, the real problem is that all kinds of crap are transported across Europe, ranging from fruits to non-food consumer products, sometimes even actual garbage. We Europeans need to ask ourselves if all of this is really necessary. How did consumerism become so sick that we ship all this stuff around the globe only to throw it away soon after... and then the trash once transported by truck gets back on the road for thousands of kilometers to be burned at some illegal dump in Southern Europe. hno: If people chose to buy local more consistently, there would be less truck traffic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Another map of the weekend driving bans in Tirol, provided by the state.


Fahrverbot Tirol richtung Italien by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Verso

Does the driving ban only apply to the Ford Model T? :lol:


----------



## OulaL

How do they tell whether the destination is in Italy or not?


----------



## cinxxx

Ad if your destination is not Italy?
Like for example driving for fun, let's say from Munich and come back the same day? :lol:


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Another map of the weekend driving bans in Tirol, provided by the state.


There's a different map in their latest press release published today: https://www.tirol.gv.at/verkehr/verkehrsrecht/fahrverbote-an-reisetagen/
For instance, Gemeindestraße Rothenbrunn is missing.


Nevertheless, there's also an English press release:


*Heavy holiday traffic – driving bans around Tyrol
Driving bans on secondary roads as emergency reaction against massive evasion traffic
Driving bans on secondary roads – exceptions for destination and originating traffic and residents only.*

As of now, driving bans are in force for several secondary roads in the area of Innsbruck and Wipptal. This regulation has been implemented by the Regional Government of Tyrol to act against the massive undesired evasion traffic due to traffic congestion on the motorways during the holiday season. Between 7 AM and 7 PM drivers exiting the motorway won’t have the possibility to bypass traffic jams on regional roads. Exceptions are valid for destination and originating traffic as well as for residents. These driving bans are in effect starting Saturdays, 7 AM until Sundays, 7 PM in both directions and are in force until September 14th, 2019. 

*Driving bans for all vehicles *
The driving bans are valid for all vehicles in Tyrol and those passing in transit – including cars and motorcycles. Destination and originating traffic and residents are excluded. In cooperation with the motorway operator ASFINAG, electronic notice boards will inform drivers early on about the driving bans. Exiting vehicles will be warned of the driving bans on secondary roads and led back on the motorway. The Tyrolean Government has reacted in self-defence to counter-act undesired evasion traffic which is also due to intelligent navigation systems proposing alternative routes in case of traffic congestion. In this way, Tyrol can ensure the safety and fluidity on regional roads and relieve the population and tourists in the strained towns and villages. 

* Implementation by police – focus on navigation systems *
These measures are based on regulations by the district authority of Innsbruck and the city of Innsbruck. The driving bans are programmed into the traffic information system of the Ministry of the Interior of Austria and are therefore programmed into the navigation systems. These will calculate the routes accordingly, so no evasion traffic can occur. Furthermore, the Police of Tyrol will be checking at neuralgic points. 
The road Brenner Bundesstraße is also under strict observation by the police and the Land Tyrol. Should the traffic situation worsen measures will be taken here, too. 
Traffic bans on following roads  
Driving bans for Reutte and Kufstein 
Roadmap driving bans directed to Germany 
Roadmap driving bans directed to Italy  
Roadmap driving bans Kufstein 
Frequently asked questions



And the bans will be extended: https://www.tirol.gv.at/verkehr/verkehrsrecht/driving-bans-for-reutte-and-kufstein/

*Driving bans for Reutte and Kufstein*

* Measures for Reutte*
This Saturday/Sunday: In case of congestion in the parts of the town the exits Reutte Nord and Vils will be closed and the police will be checking. These measures have been prepared for exigent circumstances and can be implemented in 30 minutes. In this way, evasion traffic in the towns can be prevented. 
Starting next weekend,Saturday/Sunday 6th/7th July until 14th/15th September driving bans will be in force for vehicles passing in transit at the exits Reutte Nord and Vils (comparable to those around Innsbruck). Only destination and originating traffic and residents only may pass. The driving bans are in effect starting Saturdays, 7 AM until Sundays, 7 PM 

*Measures for Kufstein*
Starting on the weekend (Saturday, Sunday) 6th/7th July there will be a mix of driving bans and block checks Relief for the area of Kufstein:

Driving ban: coming from Innsbruck exit Kirchbichl (Roundabout MPreis-Shopping centre L 211 Unterinntalstraße directed to Kufstein), except for destination and originating traffic and residents only
Driving ban: Municipal road at roundabout Kufstein Süd directed to the hospital of Kufstein
Block check on Landesstraße B 171 Tiroler Straße (between km 4,6 and 4,8) directed north/Kufstein at the roundabout “Innthaler” 
Block check to relieve Zell: B 171 Tiroler Straße


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> Frequently asked questions


*6. How does this work and who executes it?*
The traffic bans are overlooked and enforced by the police.

*7. Will there be a penalty if I exit the motorway to avoid a traffic jam?*
Yes, there will be penalties

*8. Am I allowed to leave the motorway to e.g. visit friends in the affected towns?*
It is of course allowed to leave the motorway for visits or a mountain tour as long as these reasons are not used to avoid the traffic bans.

*9. Do I still have to use the motorway if I don’t have a highway toll sticker (Vignette)? Was happens if I do not want to use the motorway? Can I use only secondary roads?*
Driving the Inntalautobahn (A12) requires a highway toll sticker. The Brenner Road B182 running parallel to the Brennerautobahn A 13 is toll free.

*10. Are the driving bans against EU law?*
The driving bans are covered by EU law.


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## ChrisZwolle

I drove B179 earlier this month and Waze routed me through Reutte. Eventually it took me across some kind of semi-pedestrian zone in the center of town. It's understandable they don't want a massive amount of traffic through town. 

The Kufstein area bans on the map. This problem is actually caused by Bavaria which is performing border checks at Kiefersfelden. So while Bavaria screams bloody murder about the driving bans in the Innsbruck area, they are actually the cause of those bans in the Kufstein area.


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## g.spinoza

All of this is just ridiculous.


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## MichiH

^^^^ Well, only 4 out of 6 bans or "limitations" are toward the border


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> I drove B179 earlier this month and Waze routed me through Reutte. Eventually it took me across some kind of semi-pedestrian zone in the center of town. It's understandable they don't want a massive amount of traffic through town.


Yes, it's understandable that people are pissed off of that. But it's not understandable that people are so stupid to follow this kind of GPS routing hno:


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## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> But it's not understandable that people are so stupid to follow this kind of GPS routing hno:


Sure it is. How can you expect people to know every upcoming road or street in a country hundreds of kilometers away? They just follow the GPS. I followed it too because Google Maps showed a traffic jam on B179, which was avoided by going through town.


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## rudiwien

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Kufstein area bans on the map. This problem is actually caused by Bavaria which is performing border checks at Kiefersfelden. So while Bavaria screams bloody murder about the driving bans in the Innsbruck area, they are actually the cause of those bans in the Kufstein area.



Some of that traffic in the area is also caused by people evading the Vignette, so not only the border controls.
But yes, some of it is likely cause by the border checks, similar to the A1 near Salzburg, where many people (try to) use smaller border crossings.
(I would not be going that far to say this is only because of Merkel and her refugees policies, but some people might...)


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## hjf

ChrisZwolle said:


> ...
> 
> The Kufstein area bans on the map. This problem is actually caused by Bavaria which is performing border checks at Kiefersfelden. So while Bavaria screams bloody murder about the driving bans in the Innsbruck area, they are actually the cause of those bans in the Kufstein area.


Kufstein is an Austrian town, so the bans are Austrians bans.

But as G.Spinoza rightly states this is all just ridiculous.

Has anyone ever considered the net effect? Having 350 vehicles per day (~20vph) less on a road hardly makes any difference in terms of congestion. Certainly not in terms of overall accessibility for emergency services. So, this has the flair of being a popular action for politicians to be seen to do something regardless of the effect.

On the other hand, seeing which roads are banned, it is difficult to conceive that a decent routing app should suggest them as alternatives anyway. 

Ridiculous. No more no less.

hjf


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## MichiH

@hjf, I think you don't understand the situation

Germany is doing permanent border checks on the Autobahn entering Germany. The queue is on Austrian side and people try to use non-Autobahn border crossings where no checks are done.

The 350 vehicles figure is for a period of 350, not per day. It's only the number of vehicles which have been sent back because they wanted to leave the autobahn despite of the driving ban. I'm quite sure that virtually every driver was aware of the driving ban since it was THE topic on German/Austrian media. Of course, much more driver had left the Autobahn if the ban had not been introduced.

However, it's ridiculous that they don't find a better solution. The problem are German politicians and German politicians only understand this "language".


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## MichiH

https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayer...eit-um-tiroler-fahrverbote-vermitteln,RUmf7m8

The European Commissioner for Transport, Mrs. Violeta Bulc from Slovenia has invited German, Austrian and Italian ministers for a talk in Brussels. She says that unilateral measures are not the right way.

It's also reported that there is a fine of 60€ if a driver ignores the driving ban. And it's reported that there is almost no congestion this weekend. That's clear, school holidays in southern Germany are over (next holiday from late July) and holidays in other parts of Germany just began. Much more traffic is expected for next weekend(s).


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## MichiH

An article in English with more or less the same content: https://newsbeezer.com/germanyeng/dispute-over-the-driving-ban-traffic-is-normal-in-the-tyrol/ They report that the fine is 25 € though.

Meanwhile, German (and Italian ?) ministries prepare lawsuits against the BLOCKABFERTIGUNG* on motorways and against driving ban on secondary roads. Both is against free movement of goods (= EU law).

*A _Blockabfertigung_ is used to limit the maximum number of vehicles. It's done for safety reasons.Traffic is stopped in front of a bottleneck, e.g. a tunnel. It often happens in Switzerland, e.g. at Gotthard tunnel. Austria has introduced a _Blockabfertigung_ for trucks only on A12 one or two years ago. They limit the maximum number of trucks / hour on the route to Italy. It's also said for safety and environmental reasons. The southbound tailback lasts far into Germany. There was already a dispute about this issue between A, D and I. The current driving ban on secondary roads is just the next step.


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## ChrisZwolle

*LKW Stau*

I photographed an 'LKW Stau' on Italian A22 near Sterzing. It started halfway Brixen and Sterzing, making it almost 30 kilometers long if the head of the queue was at the Austrian border due to 'Blockabfertigung'. 


LKW Stau A22 Brenner Autobahn-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


LKW Stau A22 Brenner Autobahn-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## MichiH

^^ It was introduced in fall 2017 and it's only on days *when they expect a lot of truck traffic*. The list was published for whole 2019. The next days are tomorrow July 1 and all Mondays in July. After German holidays (August 16 and October 4), October 28 (Monday), November 4 (Monday), November 11 (Tuesday) and all Thursdays in November.

The queues in Germany do often reach A8 (> 25km).


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## RipleyLV

Wow, they still have those rusty barriers.


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## g.spinoza

RipleyLV said:


> Wow, they still have those rusty barriers.


It's not carelessness, they are like this on purpose.


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## bogdymol

Not all countries can afford shiny new crash barriers :wink:



g.spinoza said:


> It's not carelessness, they are like this on purpose.


There are different types of steel, including some types that develop rust on the outside, but it is actually a protective layer for what's inside, without having the need to paint it. As long as the crash barrier does it's job (prevents vehicles from breaking it), it doesn't really matter.


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## Verso

But I have to agree with Radi that shiny crash barriers are much nicer than rusty ones.


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## italystf

On A22 barriers are rusty on purpose, to mimetize better with the mountain environment.


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## italystf

celevac said:


> In the end, the real problem is that all kinds of crap are transported across Europe, ranging from fruits to non-food consumer products, sometimes even actual garbage. We Europeans need to ask ourselves if all of this is really necessary. How did consumerism become so sick that we ship all this stuff around the globe only to throw it away soon after... and then the trash once transported by truck gets back on the road for thousands of kilometers to be burned at some illegal dump in Southern Europe. hno: If people chose to buy local more consistently, there would be less truck traffic.


EU promotes free market, you can't tell people to buy only local stuff in a more authoritarian way than some "buy local" environmental campaigns.
As for garbage, Italy send some of its trash (especially from troubled areas like Rome or Naples) to Austria and Germany, that have many incinerators that in Italy are very difficult to build bucause of nimbysm. We don't burn trash from Northern Europe.


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## rudiwien

italystf said:


> EU promotes free market, you can't tell people to buy only local stuff in a more authoritarian way than some "buy local" environmental campaigns.
> As for garbage, Italy send some of its trash (especially from troubled areas like Rome or Naples) to Austria and Germany, that have many incinerators that in Italy are very difficult to build bucause of nimbysm. We don't burn trash from Northern Europe.



Some of it is burned e.g. in Niederösterreich at the banks of the Danube at the Dürnrohr thermal plant, which was built initially to replace the never opened nuclear plant at Zwentendorf. Wikipedia in German about the garbage burning facility: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Müllverbrennungsanlage_Dürnrohr or in English for the power plant itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dürnrohr_Power_Station

But as far as I know, trash gets send there via *train*, it was something like one train per week (limited also by the capacity of the plant). Would have been really stupid to send those amounts around via trucks...


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## bogdymol

There are several IG-L sections on motorways across Austria, where speed limits are lowered to 100 or 80 km/h if some sensors nearby detect that pollution levels reached a certain limit.

However, as the electrical cars do not pollute (directly), they are from today on exempt from having to drive slower due to IG-L. From today on such signs have been installed on these sections:










The sign says: "_The IG-L speed limit is not valid for cars with license plates made according to law no..._". My question is what about foreign drivers? Their electrical cars might have standard license plates.


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## KingNick

italystf said:


> On A22 barriers are rusty on purpose, to mimetize better with the mountain environment.


Yeah, I almost couldn't see the motorway. :lol:


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## MichiH

bogdymol said:


> My question is what about foreign drivers? Their electrical cars might have standard license plates.


Next discrimination issue. We should call the court


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## rudiwien

MichiH said:


> Next discrimination issue. We should call the court



I guess this is much more a discrimination than the driving ban, yes. It is understandable for practical reasons . not all electric license plates might look the same, and the Austrian toll road operator (ASFINAG) likely doesn't have access to all registration authorities *worldwide* (not even Europ-wide).

But maybe they will introduce something like a manual registration as you have e.g. for the German "Umweltzone", though I doubt that it is worth the effort.

Maybe they also need to check each case in detail if people decide to dispute the fine; though there were some court decisions recently that have rejected complaints from people with electric cars against these fines (before the current regulation was in effect), and maybe a court would even uphold this regulation, who knows..

Anyhow, one more reasons for the German media & ministers to get furious


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## italystf

KingNick said:


> Yeah, I almost couldn't see the motorway. :lol:


Of course not, but brown barriers were considered more aestetic for those driving on motorway, instead of the shiny ones, probably because browns is more integrate with the surrounding vegetation.


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## rudiwien

A micro-update on A5 Umfahrung Drasenhofen, https://www.meinbezirk.at/mistelbach/c-politik/umfahrung-drasenhofen-in-den-startloechern_a3496704 posted this picture with politicians occupying all the foreground, but in the background, you can see first asphalt:




Also, a bit older, but more informative, ASFINAG has published pictures from end of may at https://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssich...rdweinviertel-autobahn-umfahrung-drasenhofen/


- Roundabout at Drasenhofen Süd, you can see the bypass of the roundabout for southbound traffic (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/48.7337/16.6563)









- Node Drasenhofen West, and the bridge over the Stützenbach a bit south of that (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/48.7437/16.6377)




















- Roundabout at Drasenhofen Nord:









- I assume the bridge over the Drasenbach: (https://www.google.com/maps/@48.758169,16.6309347,1260m/data=!3m1!1e3)









- A bridge close to the northern end, I assume around there: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/48.76597/16.63740. It seems that you can see Mikulov in the distance, with the castle on overlooking the city










- Various other pictures:


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## Wilhem275

bogdymol said:


> There are several IG-L sections on motorways across Austria, where speed limits are lowered to 100 or 80 km/h if some sensors nearby detect that pollution levels reached a certain limit.
> 
> However, as the electrical cars do not pollute (directly), they are from today on exempt from having to drive slower due to IG-L. From today on such signs have been installed on these sections:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The sign says: "_The IG-L speed limit is not valid for cars with license plates made according to law no..._". My question is what about foreign drivers? Their electrical cars might have standard license plates.



Wasn't IG-L also a noise reduction law? An electric car is noisy as any other at highway speed... Tesla models are probably worse than average, due to weight and large tyres.




About roads closure along the Brenner route, I agree with local communities. If through traffic uses local roads it just dumps on residents problems they didn't call for and they can't solve (including maintenance costs).

In my town we have a big problem of rat running and we're working to limit any possible backstreet route, but a lot of people fail to understand that complaints should go to their regional administration (or to national Governments in this case).
There isn't a "my home, my property" thinking behind these choices, it's just a correction to an imbalance coming from the system.


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## MichiH

Wilhem275 said:


> Wasn't IG-L also a noise reduction law?


No. The dynamic speed limit can be lowered for any reason but if "IG-L" is displayed, it's only because of immission.

IG-L means Immissionsschutzgesetzes‑Luft = immission protection law - air


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## ChrisZwolle

Tirol is going to ban older trucks from 31 October 2019, only trucks from Euro 5 and 6 will be allowed to travel through. 

_Das verschärfte Euroklassenfahrverbot für Fahrzeuge über 7,5 Tonnen greift bereits ab dem 31. Oktober 2019. Ab diesem Zeitpunkt sind auf der A12 Inntalautobahn zwischen Kufstein/Langkampfen und Zirl nur mehr Fahrzeuge über 7,5 Tonnen der Euroklassen V und VI erlaubt, ab dem 1. Jänner 2021 nur mehr Fahrzeuge der derzeit neuesten und umweltschonendsten Euroklasse VI. _

I think this looks good for their electorate, but will have almost no impact in practice. The vast majority of trucks used in international transport today are Euro 5 and 6 due to the lower toll rates for those trucks in many European countries. In the Netherlands a full 97% of international trucking kilometrage in 2018 was with Euro 5 and 6 trucks. I have no reason to believe this will be significantly different in Austria.

They say it will restrict 'transit traffic' but in practice most older trucks do not run on long distance routes due to the higher operating cost. 

>> https://www.tirol.gv.at/presse/meld...kw-transitverkehr-wird-weiter-eingeschraenkt/


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## MichiH

^^ Read it carefully:

_ab dem 1. Jänner 2021 nur mehr Fahrzeuge der derzeit neuesten und umweltschonendsten Euroklasse VI. _

From 1st January 2021, only vehicles with Euro 6 are allowed.


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## ChrisZwolle

I don't think that will change much either. The truck fleet renews much faster than the passenger car fleet. 

Statistics Netherlands reported that 68% of international trucking mileage to/from the Netherlands in 2018 was with Euro 6 trucks, up from 42% in 2016 and 12% in 2014. It's changes that quickly...


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## ChrisZwolle

*Land Salzburg*

Tirol is trying to walk on eggshells with very nuanced local driving bans to avoid transit traffic taking local roads.

Salzburg thinks, why bother being nuanced, just block every single exit on A10 to non-local traffic. :lol:

The bans apply: Saturdays and Sundays from 13 July - 18 August, between 6 and 20 hrs. 










Source: https://www.salzburg.gv.at/themen/verkehr/verkehrsinfo


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## italystf

^^ I wonder how they can enforce that and at which cost.

If those practices will become commonplace across Europe, the era when people simply jump in their cars and take roadtrips wherever and whenever they want, will come to an end. One day we will be forced to travel on government-approved itineraries like in the DDR. Governments would be able to favour certain touristic destinations over others by controlling the road access to them 
Meanwhile, in developed countries the car fleet is getting greener and greener every year, and a single cruise ship pollutes like several millions (!) of cars. Cruise ships are not necessary for personal mobility and freedom like cars, yet, you almost never hear environmentalists opposing them (except in Venice, but there it's mostly for safety issues, rather than for air quality).
I'm all for protecting the environment, for banning old polluting technologies, for incentivating clean transport modes (PT, bycicles, and electric or hydrogen vehicles), and for keeping historical centres of cities and nature reserves car-free.
But sub-national subdivisions closing main roads to non-local traffic seems too much IMHO. Hopefully, when, I hope as soon as possible, most vehicles in Europe will be electric, probably people will be less likely to demand such policies to their policy makers.


----------



## yoggy52

rudiwien said:


> - Roundabout at Drasenhofen Nord:


Why is this roundabout so elevated? Am I missing something?


----------



## rudiwien

italystf said:


> ^^ I wonder how they can enforce that and at which cost.



I guess only with manual checks, if they actually start to fine, then the costs might be in balance.



italystf said:


> If those practices will become commonplace across Europe, the era when people simply jump in their cars and take roadtrips wherever and whenever they want, will come to an end. One day we will be forced to travel on government-approved itineraries like in the DDR. Governments would be able to favour certain touristic destinations over others by controlling the road access to them
> Meanwhile, in developed countries the car fleet is getting greener and greener every year, and a single cruise ship pollutes like several millions (!) of cars. Cruise ships are not necessary for personal mobility and freedom like cars, yet, you almost never hear environmentalists opposing them (except in Venice, but there it's mostly for safety issues, rather than for air quality).
> I'm all for protecting the environment, for banning old polluting technologies, for incentivating clean transport modes (PT, bycicles, and electric or hydrogen vehicles), and for keeping historical centres of cities and nature reserves car-free.
> But sub-national subdivisions closing main roads to non-local traffic seems too much IMHO. Hopefully, when, I hope as soon as possible, most vehicles in Europe will be electric, probably people will be less likely to demand such policies to their policy makers.



I fully agree on the cruise ships, especially as they are getting more and more popular... I don't really buy into your other totalitarian fear, though.

Anyway, besides that, electric cars will not really solve the aspect of traffic jams at all. They will cause less noise (especially at low speed), they will produce less pollution (at least locally, globally that depends on the power generation source), but they will not help a bit with roads being overcrowded, and people not being able to reach the other side of their village anymore. So simply waiting won't help that.

I am not sure what long-term solutions could be, really. There seems to be no desire in Austria to increase the transit capacity, there won't be any three-laning of A10 or A12/13 anytime I think, there won't be another motorway-grade alpine crossing (even if Fernpass might get moderately upgraded with tunnels, that will mostly increase travel speed and comfort, maybe availability in winter, but not that much capacity), so besides reducing road traffic, there seems no other viable option. Maybe it would be sufficient to allow personal vehicle flow if they could move all transit truck traffic on rail, but to achieve that, the prices for road vs. rail would need to shift significantly into favour of the latter, and I don't see that really a political goal anyway...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There were reports of police closing exits around Villach over the past few summers. It seems like this has been practice for some time now. 

Capacity on Austrian trans-Alpine routes are the best in the Alps. The real problem are the construction zones. If there was no construction the congestion would probably be moderate. But construction is a necessary evil.

Though over the past 2 weekends the congestion in Tirol was pretty minor, I think it was much less worse than they anticipated. Maybe they hit 'panic mode' after Southern Germany went on their 2-week Pentecost Holidays and caused massive problems around Innsbruck and Salzburg in June. 

According to schulferien.org, only 3 German states have yet to start summer vacation: Nordrhein-Westfalen this weekend and Bavaria / Baden-Württemberg in 2 weeks.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> According to schulferien.org, only 3 German states have yet to start summer vacation: Nordrhein-Westfalen this weekend and Bavaria / Baden-Württemberg in 2 weeks.


That means, about 50% of the population!


----------



## italystf

rudiwien said:


> Anyway, besides that, electric cars will not really solve the aspect of traffic jams at all. They will cause less noise (especially at low speed), they will produce less pollution (at least locally, globally that depends on the power generation source), but they will not help a bit with roads being overcrowded, and people not being able to reach the other side of their village anymore. So simply waiting won't help that.


Holiday-related traffic jams will remain, but people would get less angry about them, as they would became "only" an obstacle to fast movements and not also a threat to human health and environment.


rudiwien said:


> I am not sure what long-term solutions could be, really. There seems to be no desire in Austria to increase the transit capacity, there won't be any three-laning of A10 or A12/13 anytime I think, there won't be another motorway-grade alpine crossing (even if Fernpass might get moderately upgraded with tunnels, that will mostly increase travel speed and comfort, maybe availability in winter, but not that much capacity), so besides reducing road traffic, there seems no other viable option. Maybe it would be sufficient to allow personal vehicle flow if they could move all transit truck traffic on rail, but to achieve that, the prices for road vs. rail would need to shift significantly into favour of the latter, and I don't see that really a political goal anyway...


NIMBY logic:
- no traffic across villages
- no new roads to bypass villages
- no traffic jams
- no new roads that would reduce traffic jams
Since those requests all together are utopic for obvious reason, they call for authoritarian luddist measures (such as "happy degrowt"), that would hurt businesses and citizens.
Instead, it should be better accept a compromise between liveability/environment and movement needs of people and goods. For example: traffic calming measures inside towns and new bypasses complete with environmental mitigation facilities, animal crossings, anti-noise barriers, etc...
Moreover, if you want to live in a traffic-free place, you may move to the countryside or to a quiet residential street. It's stupid to buy or rent a property along a national road and then because of holiday traffic. Main roads are made for traffic.
hno:


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## Wilhem275

italystf said:


> NIMBY logic:
> - no traffic across villages
> - no new roads to bypass villages
> - no traffic jams
> - no new roads that would reduce traffic jams



Naggers logic:
- assuming that all those contradicting things are claimed by the same single person


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## Verso

There's a through street in Ljubljana where only local traffic is allowed, but no one cares about it.

https://goo.gl/maps/Zowcqq51jufsfyPZA


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## italystf

Verso said:


> There's a through street in Ljubljana where only local traffic is allowed, but no one cares about it.
> 
> https://goo.gl/maps/Zowcqq51jufsfyPZA


Traffic limitations in central streets of cities are OK.
A comparable situation would be having traffic police stopping drivers at every motorway exit between Ljubljana and Maribor and asking them what's their destinantion.


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## Verso

^^ For me it's the shortest and fastest way to get to the motorway for Koper, so I just drive there. It's a residential area, but not full of pedestrians at all.

There's also traffic ban through the center of Cividale del Friuli during the day, but no one cares about that either.


----------



## satanism

That's called balkan mentality  AKA I know it's not okay, but i do it anyway, cause it's okay for me...


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## Verso

Well, it's a city, so you should expect a lot of traffic on roads, you don't live in the middle of nowhere.


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## Wilhem275

Which is the general reaction in front of a traffic ban. "It's their fault for being on my way" 

This would be the shortest 
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/46....s0x47652d449aba7887:0x8f14faea20a1dde!1m0!3e0


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## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> Well, it's a city, so you should expect a lot of traffic on roads, you don't live in the middle of nowhere.


Being inside a city doesn't automatically mean having cars around.


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## Verso

Wilhem275 said:


> Which is the general reaction in front of a traffic ban. "It's their fault for being on my way"
> 
> This would be the shortest
> https://www.google.com/maps/dir/46....s0x47652d449aba7887:0x8f14faea20a1dde!1m0!3e0


This is exactly the way I drive. 



g.spinoza said:


> Being inside a city doesn't automatically mean having cars around.


In North Korea or Somalia.


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## g.spinoza

Verso said:


> In North Korea or Somalia.


There are these little things called "pedestrian zones"...


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## Verso

Yes, in the center, but those streets aren't in the center of Ljubljana, neither are they in a pedestrian zone.


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## Wilhem275

I'm well aware the cost is on me, but I'm also aware of how much my life quality is reduced by road vehicles. I give that more value than most people do.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

On the other hand, road transport has a lot direct and indirect of benefits as well. 

All those people in Tirol complaining about trucks could not live their life as they do now without trucks. Our entire economy dependent on transportation, with trucking being the far majority and most cost-efficient. Everything in the room you're sitting in is transported by truck at some point. Everything you consume is transported by truck. The cables that allow you to comment on the internet were transported by truck. The banners that protest against trucks were transported by truck at some point.

Impact of traffic can be mitigated. There are land tunnels, noise barriers, silent pavement, lower engine noise standards, lower speed limits, cleaner engines. However it's an utopia to be able to live anywhere in Europe without hearing more than crickets.


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## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> All those people in Tirol complaining about trucks could not live their life as they do now without trucks. Our entire economy dependent on transportation, with trucking being the far majority and most cost-efficient.


All the people, in Tyrol and everywhere in the world, would like to have all the trucks that carry goods to them, and ban all the tracks that only drive through their region/town.


----------



## MichiH

^^ sure, it's called nimbyism.


----------



## Negjana

Bloody hell so not wanting 10000 trucks per day drive through a very tight and congested valley is called nimbyism?

:bash::bash::bash:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well yes. Unless you want to live in a cave and live on subsistence agriculture, trucks deliviering goods for your benefit will travel by someone else's house too...


----------



## bogdymol

Last year there were 2 sections on motorway A1 where they tested the 140 km/h speed limit. The results seem to be positive:

accident rates with injuries dropped from 4,6 to 2,2 per month (in Lower Austria) and from 1,2 to 0,5 in Upper Austria (all compared to the 2014-2017 average)
the pollution levels were almost at the same level, with only minor increase of CO2 and NO2 of 1-2%
the average speed of all cars increased by 2-4%
Article in German here.


----------



## Mackem

Negjana said:


> Bloody hell so not wanting 10000 trucks per day drive through a very tight and congested valley is called nimbyism?
> 
> :bash::bash::bash:


Err this is an Autobahn, they're not driving through Tirolean villages, there is a large industrial zone - quarries etc. located alongside which creates large commercial traffic (no complaints there from the locals). It seems that international trade is only ok if it is Austrian trade ?
If the Tiroleans are so concerned about congestion, maybe they should reduce tourism, or is that just a little too close to home ?


----------



## Negjana

Apparently there is only black or white. Thanks for teaching me this lesson.

Same applies to @ChrisZwolle.


----------



## Verso

I'm sure there would be far less trucks on roads, if people were eating more local food and stopped buying things they don't really need. So yes, there is a lot of potential to reduce the number of trucks on roads.


----------



## satanism

And can you imagine the possibilities if you close the borders and turn to planned economy?!?! You can even plan the number of trucks that will pass there.....I can't see why nobody has thought of that....


----------



## Negjana

What a mature argument.


----------



## Wilhem275

Those greens are worse than nazis!

Sorry, I just wanted to skip straight to the end of Godwin's Law, the exaggerations were already too boring...


Nobody here said any radical crap about zero-trucks, degrowth, NIMBY or dumb stuff like that.
I don't get why there can't be a discussion about reducing traffic volumes without treating people as naive green fools who don't know how the world works.


----------



## rudiwien

I also don't understand this total binary point of view - it's either unlimited trucks, or back to the cave, right? Sounds very reasonable..



Mackem said:


> Err this is an Autobahn, they're not driving through Tirolean villages, there is a large industrial zone - quarries etc. located alongside which creates large commercial traffic (no complaints there from the locals). It seems that international trade is only ok if it is Austrian trade ?
> If the Tiroleans are so concerned about congestion, maybe they should reduce tourism, or is that just a little too close to home ?



There isn't much of industry along the Brenner Autobahn, there is significantly more up the Inntal of course.

And *yes*, it's an Autobahn, and *yes*, they don't go directly through the main square, but *yes*, it is a rather narrow valley, and the motorway is very close to many villages, simply due to (i) space reasons and (ii) it being built in a time when they didn't have the money, the understanding, and likely also not well refined technical skills to build the motorway in a way less disruptive way, i.e. more tunnels and other means.


All this together means simply a lot of traffic share that doesn't benefit anyone Tyrol, likely in a percentage of transit traffic that is right up there with other major transit routes, so I do think it's definitely not NIMBYism to want to change that ratio somewhat. There is not attempt to block transit traffic through Austria, as some people seem to postulate here..



Mackem said:


> Of course it's YOU that ends up paying the higher cost - all charges for externalities will be passed on to the consumer.



Well, I'd say better the specific consumer, than the random tax payer who currently pays for all things not covered by directly charged fees.


----------



## Verso

satanism said:


> And can you imagine the possibilities if you close the borders and turn to planned economy?!?! You can even plan the number of trucks that will pass there.....I can't see why nobody has thought of that....


Your comment would make sense, if I were giving orders. It was merely a suggestion.


----------



## rudiwien

An update on the S36 near Unzmarkt (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/47.1959/14.4679), pictures are already a bit older (April), but still quite interesting.

Currently, the opening is scheduled for October 1st, 2020

- Wildlife crossing on the eastern part, approx here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/47.20900/14.46116


- Tunnel, already with side-walls concreted (looks very narrow, but it is two lanes ):


- Tunnel portal on the eastern end, approx here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/47.20052/14.44969


- The building under construction in this shot will house the operations of the tunnel infrastructure:



- Western end, the roads fromt he tunnel are still to be built


- Bridge over the railway (will carry both the S36 and the provincial road), approx here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/47.19095/14.43803


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## ChrisZwolle

*Kühtai*

The Kühtai Saddle is a 2020 meter high pass in Tirol, west of Innsbruck. It runs more or less parallel to A12, but at a much higher altitude.


Kühtai-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


Kühtai-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


Kühtai-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


Kühtai-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


Kühtai-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


Kühtai-10 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Verso

I hate all those labels.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^


Passo Pordoi-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Verso

uke:


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## rudiwien

Looks worse than graffiti on a train...


----------



## Verso

And what's worse, no one cares about the labels other than the people who stuck them.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ They appear to be removed by French road operators from time to time.

Like this sticker-less sign at the Cormet de Roselend in France.


Cormet de Roselend-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## RipleyLV

They could just install an additional blank plate for stickers under the signs at least.


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## satanism

You could leave a 10 by 10m blank place for stickers. When I was a kid i thought most people are smart and some are stupid. Now i know most people are dumb AF and will still put them on the sign....and few people are smart.


----------



## g.spinoza

RipleyLV said:


> They could just install an additional blank plate for stickers under the signs at least.


People will leave the blank plate blank and use the real one for stickers.


----------



## Corvinus

^^ This actually happened when the German railways installed blank billboards with a message to graffiti sprayers to "please spray here". That was no challenge and not interesting, the bored nutjobs continued to spray on actual train carriages and ignored the billboards put up for them. These sprayers should be dealt with the Singaporean way. 

That said, with the touristic stickers I have no problem as long as they don't obstruct signs and don't cause a major aesthetic impact. The flag pole of the Kotor fortress is entirely covered with labels and it was interesting to have a look at them. Road signs should remain clear of them of course, they are there for a purpose which is clearly not for marking one's touristic visit.


----------



## italystf

They could cover these signs with trasparent plastic foils, and replace them as long as they get covered by stickers. It would be easier than removing all individual stickers. But I'm sure that some idiot would break or remove the plastic film sooner or later.
And, from time to time (especially during bikers meetings), they should put some undercover police officers near those signs to catch and fine vandals.


----------



## rudiwien

A couple of pictures (source: https://burgenland.orf.at/stories/3007639/) from the Tunnel Rudersdorf on S7 Fürstenfelder Schnellstraße, which will connect to the Hungarian M8 in the future (~2023, according to ASFINAG: https://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssicherheit/bauen/bauprojekte/s-7-fuerstenfelder-schnellstrasse/)

Location of the tunnel approx here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/47.0510/16.1374

* Inside the tunnel:









Main difficulty is to stabilise the hill, it is mostly clay and sand, so they need to concrete it while taking out material.


* Part of the tunnel is also built as cut & cover:









* Eastern portal:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A5 Drasenhofen*

The half-profile A5 at Drasenhofen opens to traffic tomorrow afternoon: https://noe.orf.at/stories/3011864/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*E7*

That's weird, E7 is signed on S6 near Bruck an der Mur.

E7 runs from Langon to Zaragoza, nowhere near Austria. I believe there is no E-route anywhere close to Bruck an der Mur... I suppose it's an indirect sign for E57?









Photo by Etienne


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^ :-O


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The half-profile A5 at Drasenhofen opens to traffic tomorrow afternoon: https://noe.orf.at/stories/3011864/


Not best quality but fine. Taken driving from north to south.


----------



## Verso

It's obviously a mistake, in Slovenia we have E75 instead of E57 signed somewhere.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

^^ It's possible that wuold be an old sign of older E7?


----------



## Surel

MichiH said:


> Not best quality but fine. Taken driving from north to south.


How are they planning to make a full profile of that ecoduct at min 1:30? :nuts:


----------



## keber

Probably they will build another one as near as possible.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Based on some earlier photos not a whole lot was prepared for an easy upgrade to four lanes. Both ends are simple roundabouts instead of interchanges which can be extended easily. Bridges were built on a narrow profile, embankments would need significant expansion to accomodate 4 lanes. It appears that it's rather 'not made impossible' instead of 'readily prepared' for 4 lanes. 

Which suggests that any four laning may be quite far into the future. You usually don't build it like this with the idea to construct the second carriageway 5 years later. I suppose the Austrians play the waiting game to see what Czechia comes up with on their side.


----------



## MichiH

Czechia "plays the waiting game". They've not yet agreed on the future motorway route but Austria didn't want to wait. I guess that they've built the bypass as cheap as possible (55.8 million €). ASFINAG indicates in their press release that:



> Die Umfahrung Drasenhofen ist der erste Schritt hin zu einer vollwertigen Autobahn. Daher verfügt sie bereits heute über eine „Autobahn-Grundausstattung“. Darunter fallen unter anderem technische Einrichtungen wie Videokameras entlang der Strecke zur Verkehrsüberwachung und Bodensensoren wie beispielweise Glättemeldeanlagen. Auch baulich sind bereits – sofern das möglich war – erste Maßnahmen für einen späteren Vollausbau umgesetzt worden. Konkret bedeutet das, dass beispielweise die Entwässerung und die Gewässerschutzanlagen bereits für eine Autobahn mit jeweils zwei Fahrspuren pro Fahrtrichtung dimensioniert sind.
> 
> The Drasenhofen bypass is the first step to a full motorway. It already features a "motorway basic standard" today. For instance technical equipment like cameras along the route for traffic monitoring and ground sensor for glaze warning. Also constructional - in case it was already possible - first features are implemented for the future completion. For instance drain and protection of waters are already dimensioned for a motorway with 2 lanes per direction.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

At least the people of Drasenhofen don't have to suffer from all those trucks plowing through the village anymore.


----------



## x-type

Wilhem275 said:


> At least they could write "Partenza" right :lol:


And it's only one partenza obviously each hour


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Arlbergpass*

The Arlberg Pass.


Arlbergpass 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


Arlbergpass 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


Arlbergpass 05 by European Roads, on Flickr

It seemed odd that the pass status is indicated in French. This is nowhere near a French-speaking area.

Arlbergpass 08 by European Roads, on Flickr


Arlbergpass 11 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## satanism

I remember being told that french used to be the recognised transport language in Europe in the recent past...could be inheritance from that time.
Remember the "douane" sign?


----------



## MattiG

satanism said:


> I remember being told that french used to be the recognised transport language in Europe in the recent past...could be inheritance from that time.
> Remember the "douane" sign?


The Vienna Convention on Road Signs does not force using any specific language. It recommends using the word "Customs" preferably in two languages. Often, those languages are those ones spoken in the countries in question.

The Finnish/Norwegian Customs station in Karigasniemi:

https://goo.gl/maps/qjM73ZfnzGdEnU1j9

The Norway-operated joint customs operations at the FIN/N border seem to follow the "Toll-Customs" convention.


----------



## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Arlberg Pass.
> ... It seemed odd that the pass status is indicated in French. This is nowhere near a French-speaking area...


It's even further from an English-speaking area! I would have thought that having German, English and French is the best spread of languages that most people driving there would understand one of. Does any country learn Italian as the first foreign language?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Stuu said:


> It's even further from an English-speaking area! I would have thought that having German, English and French is the best spread of languages that most people driving there would understand one of. Does any country learn Italian as the first foreign language?




I hope Europe never gets to the point where everyone speaks two languages (English and their own) and no more than two. Surely being able to understand your neighbors (or other parts of your own country, if you’re Belgian or Swiss) is worthwhile.


----------



## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> I hope Europe never gets to the point where everyone speaks two languages (English and their own) and no more than two. Surely being able to understand your neighbors (or other parts of your own country, if you’re Belgian or Swiss) is worthwhile.


High hopes here. A consistent part of the populace doesn't even speak English. I would be glad just if everyone in Italy spoke at least Italian - there are parts of the country where people only speak dialect... :bash:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Stuu said:


> It's even further from an English-speaking area!


That's true, but English is by far the most common _lingua franca_ in Europe. Only a small proportion of the population speaks French outside of Francophone Europe. It's not like you see hordes of French cars in that area either... 

According to Wikipedia 20% of the EU population speaks French, but if you subtract native speakers in France, Belgium and Switzerland it is more like 8% who speak it as a second language. 

I could understand it if it is a border region to a French speaking area, but that's not the case either.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> That's true, but English is by far the most common _lingua franca_ in Europe. Only a small proportion of the population speaks French outside of Francophone Europe. It's not like you see hordes of French cars in that area either...
> 
> 
> 
> According to Wikipedia 20% of the EU population speaks French, but if you subtract native speakers in France, Belgium and Switzerland it is more like 8% who speak it as a second language.
> 
> 
> 
> I could understand it if it is a border region to a French speaking area, but that's not the case either.




What are the figures for other languages?...Number (or percentage) of non-native speakers who speak, say, German?

Do you learn French in the Netherlands any more? When I was first there in the 80s..., well, I still remember hearing an Amsterdam restaurant hostess switching effortlessly among Dutch, English, French and German, although I suppose that wasn’t typical. And French (or Francophone Belgian) channels among the tiny-by-current-standards channels on the hotel TV.


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## ChrisZwolle

French is an optional course in high school in the Netherlands. 

The problem with French for many Dutch is that they don't really practice it in everyday life, only one time per year on vacation or less. Fluency is generally quite limited I'd say. 

I took 3 years of French, got very high grades but my knowledge quickly eroded away because I almost never used it in practice. My French has now degraded to only a very basic level, I can order something in a restaurant and read French text but almost nothing beyond that. 

According to Wikipedia some 11% of Austrians speak French.


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## MichiH

Penn's Woods said:


> What are the figures for other languages?...Number (or percentage) of non-native speakers who speak, say, German?


wikipedia indicates 2012 figures for EU countries. English as additional language do speak 38%, French and German are 14%. Spanish 7%, Russian 5% and Italian 3%.


----------



## rheintram

French is the second living foreign language one learns in most Austrian schools. In Tyrol it often is Italian though.

I remember French being used a lot more on signage in the past than it is now.

Btw. this area (Tyrol and Vorarlberg) used to be part of the French occupation zone after WWII. The French were quite influential especially culturally in the area for a few decades.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Stuu said:


> Does any country learn Italian as the first foreign language?


In two cantons of Switzerland. Italian was taught as first second language in Uri until some time ago, and still is in German-speaking parts of Grisons. Romansh-speaking children study German. Italian and Romansh are quite mutually intelligible in their written form, but not when spoken (beside the fact that there are actually 5 varieties of Romansh, plus Ladin in South Tyrol-to remain slightly on topic).

There is a sad push to teach, as a first foreign language, English instead of another national language, but often this ambitions are throwed away by citizens who prefer maintaining a national one as first language. The first foreign language is (or was) nearly always French for German-speaking Swiss and vice-versa, but not necessarily. Italian-speaking Swiss have to study both, plus English (I started with French at the third school year, followed by German on the seventh, and English at the ninth).


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Maybe Albania.


----------



## rudiwien

To get a bit back on topic, some pics from the S7 Fürstenfelder Schnellstraße, which will connect A2 with the M8 in Hungary. Pics are from the construction of the Tunnel Rudersdorf (approx. here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/47.0463/16.1383), courtesy to https://www.bvz.at/jennersdorf/rude...udersdorf-s7-s7-tunnel-rudersdorf-170638018#:


----------



## MichiH

Problems with alternative traffic: Austria wants to free motorways near the border of toll

A1 Walserberg (border to D) - Salzburg Nord OSM
A12 Grenze Kufstein (border to D) - Kufstein Süd OSM
A14 Hörbranz (border to D) - Hohenems OSM
A26 Linzer Autobahn (future motorway, partially u/c; OSM)
A7 Bypassbrücke - Urfahr OSM (not sure where it is, just the Danube bridge?)

It should be passed tomorrow. Bavarian politicians are happy!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Interesting that they want to make A14 toll-free all the way to Hohenems. This area used to have the separate 'Korridorvignette' for traffic between Germany and Switzerland.


----------



## rudiwien

MichiH said:


> A26 Linzer Autobahn (future motorway, partially u/c; OSM)
> A7 Bypassbrücke - Urfahr OSM (not sure where it is, just the Danube bridge?)



This should indeed be just the bridge, specifically only the "bypass" bridges, which are currently under construction for the renovation of the actual VOEST bridge, and which in the future will carry just the on and off ramps, respectively allow crossing the Danube w/o joining the main bridge.



MichiH said:


> Bavarian politicians are happy!



Which is also what opposition parties (in this case, actually only the social democrats, greens, who are negotiating to be in the next government, did not object to this) are criticising - that this will only help German drivers, and while it might take traffic off the local roads, it will increase overall traffic.


----------



## MichiH

^^ I understand why the Danube bridges in Linz should be free but I just wonder why the other exceptions are only at the _winter season border crossings_. A8 at Passau is also tolled from the German (Bavarian) border. A2 and A13 are tolled from the Italian border, A9 and A11 from the Slovenian border, A4 from the Hungarian border and A6 from the Slovakian border. I think THIS is discriminating! (much more than the formerly planned German car toll prohibit by court due to Austrian appeals)


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## ChrisZwolle

Evidently they want to address the issues where a lot of traffic only has to go 5-10 kilometers on an Austrian motorway before they leave for a valley or city. These motorists are currently clogging up the border villages because they don't want to pay € 9 for a 5 minute drive. Perhaps this isn't much of an issue on the eastern and southern borders. Maybe it's pragmatism over principle.


----------



## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think the reduction of goods through Switzerland isn't due to a switch to rail, but mainly a switch to the Brenner Pass.


You are partly wrong, as road traffic at the Gotthard has increased in weight until 2008, then decreased (but to a level higher than 2000), but the number of trucks has decreased since meanwhile the weight limit has been increased from 28 to 40 tonnes.

Fréjus rail traffic fell from 9.4 million of tonnes in 2000 to 3.0 in 2016 (mostly due to long works to enlarge tunnels which implied a lot of restrictions on rail traffic, but also due to bad management), Simplon increased from 3.8 to 13.4, the Gotthard fell from 16.8 to 15.3 (in this case figures are infuenced by the fact that there is a certain capacity restriction due to works to enlarge tunnels to allow bigger trailers to be carried on trains). Brenner increased from 8.7 to 13.4.

Fréjus+Mont Blanc road tunnels decreased in the same years from 25.8 to 19.2, with traffic likely moved to Ventimiglia (13.6 to 19.3). Gotthard increased from 7.6 to 8.4, but with fewer trucks as the weight limit has been increased from 28 to 40 tonnes (traffic peaked here in 2008 at 11.0 Mt). Brenner+Reschen increased from 26.3 to 34.7 (Reschen having around 1.2 Mt).

Rail freight traffic at Ventimiglia is negligible (less than 0.5 Mt), as is truck traffic at the Swiss transalpine roads other than the Gotthard (San Bernardino lies around 1.6 Mt, the other two much less).

Truck traffic at the Gotthard decreased from 1.187.000 vehicles in 2000 to 701.000 in 2016, while the number of trucks is roughly constant on the Italian-French border (2.614.000 in 2000, 2.540.000 in 2014, I have no newer figures for Ventimiglia).

To resume, there have likely been some changes in traffic flows: trucks from the Fréjus and Mont Blanc tunnels to Ventimiglia, trains from the Fréjus to the Simplon, while traffic avoiding Switzerland via the Brenner is likely a constant, and not something that happened in the last dozen of years. It is likely that the increase in truck traffic at the Brenner is mostly a pure increase, not a shift from Switzerland.

Note that there is a small amount of traffic that is neither road nor rail, but that the statistics I have put it into the rail figures. These are the truck shuttles that ends exactly at the Brenner Pass coming from the north, so that you can't classify them neither as fully rail transport, nor road transport (there are other truck shuttles, but those are loaded and unloaded outside the Alpine region, and not exactly in the middle of it, so they can fully count as rail transalpine traffic).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Toll free*

Exceptions to the mandatory _Autobahnvignette_ (toll sticker) are coming into effect today.

Starting from today, the following sections will not require a vignette;

* A1 between the German border and Salzburg-Nord
* A7 bypass bridges in Linz (when opened to traffic)
* A12 between the German border and Kufstein-Süd
* A14 between the German border and Hohenems
* A26 Linzer Autobahn

Press release: https://www.oesterreich.gv.at/theme...von-der-Mautpflicht-ab-15.-Dezember-2019.html


----------



## Corvinus

Any news about the 140 km/h motorway sections? Will these limits stay in place? Will 140 km/h be extended to other sections too? Could it become the general motorway speed limit?


----------



## MichiH

^^ Austria does currently only have an interim government. The new government might decide anything in 2020. Who knows.


----------



## Negjana

If the ÖVP and the Green Party form a coalition i'm 95% sure the 140 km/h will be history.


----------



## rudiwien

^^

Yes, totally agree on that assessment, the 140 km/h limit was mostly the idea of the FPÖ.

Even likely to see an opposite trend at least in some places, e.g. St. Pölten wants since a long time a 100 km/h zone on A1 in the section that is close to the city, maybe that get's implemented now..


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's debatable to what extent politicians should micromanage speed limit reductions. Some things are better left with traffic engineers (who can work within the legal framework regarding noise / air quality).


----------



## Negjana

So the 140 km/h speed limit was put in place by traffic engineers? :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That was a legal change, for which politicians are required. Speed limit reductions are not.


----------



## bzbox

Austria should specifically inform people about A11, where the vignette is not needed from St. Jakob I. R. until Karavanke tunnel.


----------



## KingNick

bzbox said:


> Austria should specifically inform people about A11, where the vignette is not needed from St. Jakob I. R. until Karavanke tunnel.


A vignette is not required an all the so-called Sondermautstrecken:

https://www.asfinag.at/toll/route-and-digital-section-toll/route-rates/


----------



## rheintram

I hope these Vignette exceptions will quickly be reverted, once politicians come to their senses...


----------



## SRC_100

^^
Why? There seems it makes sense...


----------



## rudiwien

A7 Mühlkreisautobahn, the works on the Danube Bridge (named VOEST Bridge, after the steel production company); as you might know, they are building two bypass bridges to on the one hand carry the traffic while they reconstruct the main bridge in a couple of years, and on the other hand to have in the future a separation of through traffic and merging traffic (and traffic that just crosses the Danube via the motorway).

Last week, I was by chance on that exact day in Linz, crossing the motorway, and seeing the many people watching, as they move the bridge elements in place for the second bypass bridge; didn't see much from the works, but luckily, ASFINAG provided a video:






Final configuration:










And the visualisation:


----------



## rudiwien

So, some more news:

- Gleinalmtunnel on A9 is now finally open in dual configuration, 6 years after construction started, including the renovation of the old tube.
Costs: 180 million € for the new, 80 for the old tube, 8,9 km length.
(https://www.asfinag.at/ueber-uns/newsroom/pressemeldungen/2019/eroeffnung-gleinalmtunnel/)


- The first section of lane widening and median separation of S31 Burgenland Schnellstraße has completed, from Mattersburg to Forchtenstein:
https://www.asfinag.at/ueber-uns/ne...sbau-mattersburg-forchtenstein-abgeschlossen/

It used to be 2+2 on *one* carriageway of 13m total width, now it is wider, and 2+2 with median separator. Still not full motorway standard, missing emergency lanes, keeping a 100 km/h speed limit, but way better and safer than before.
ASFINAG illustrates that like this:










in real, it looks like that:








(source: https://www.meinbezirk.at/mattersbu...uf-erstem-bauabschnitt-abgeschlossen_a3835260)

Costs are in total 106 million Euro for widening, and another 38 million for the new bridges, for a total of 22,4 km, so 6,4 million eur / km.

Map: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/47.7411/16.4130

End of 2020 and 2021 this widening is done until Sieggraben and Weppersdorf/Markt St. Martin respectively. This will include having a few sections, where they need to build additional bridges to be done 2022-2025, temporarily in a 2+1 configuration (2 on uphill, 1 downhill sections)


----------



## bogdymol

On A1 motorway they are installing new noise barriers between the junctions with A25 (Knoten Haid) and A7 (Knoten Linz). Every Trump supporter would envy the size of these new walls:




























This particular stretch of A1 between these 2 interchanges is often very busy, many times leading to congestion and queues. A widening to 4 lanes per direction on these few kms would have improved the traffic a lot. However, with these new noise barriers, there won't be enough space remaining to make such a widening in the future.


----------



## Verso

^^ This barrier wall is absolutely terrible.


----------



## JackFrost

For the future: they could flood the road between the walls and sail to Vienna.

Greta would love it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

These median noise barriers seem to be mostly an Austrian thing, they appear to be rare if not non-existent elsewhere. It makes you wonder if Austrian noise regulations are stricter than those mandated by EU.


----------



## Nordic20T

^^
Maybe Austria has more money to waste - sorry spend - on noise barriers. Driving in Austria has become really annoying over the years. Just walls everywhere...


----------



## Attus

Adrian.02 said:


> That's the answer I was looking for!Thanks.I am actually going from Germany to Romania,and I was wondering if I can stop at the Loosdorf Rest Area(Mcdonalds) or even Parndorf shopping center.


As long as you drive FROM Germany TO Romania, you're free to move in Austria. On the way back, FROM Romania, it's more complicated.


----------



## Adrian.02

Attus said:


> As long as you drive FROM Germany TO Romania, you're free to move in Austria. On the way back, FROM Romania, it's more complicated.


Yes,I am aware of that fact.The problem is that our car is registered in Romania and an officer might think that we stopped at the Loosdorf Raststatt coming from Romania,as you can visit it from both sides of the Autobahn.


----------



## bogdymol

Keep some recent receipts from Germany and you can easily prove where you come from.


----------



## Adrian.02

bogdymol said:


> Keep some recent receipts from Germany and you can easily prove where you come from.


Yep I've got no problems proof-wise(Bookings from Spain,Museum ticket from Germany etc)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Google Maps reports a 40 kilometer traffic jam at the Slovenian border (Karawanken). Apparently Slovenia is doing entrance checks and this results in a massive traffic jam. The delay is like in the many hours. Google Maps says 2 hours but it is likely more.


----------



## keber

Google maps is completely incorrect when estimating travel times from further north. If you put starting point for example 50 km norther on A10, the estimated travel time is alsmost the same or even shorter than from beginning of traffic jam. Therefore it sends you directly into traffic jam and doesn't show you better alternatives.


----------



## Attus

keber said:


> Google maps is completely incorrect when estimating travel times from further north. If you put starting point for example 50 km norther on A10, the estimated travel time is alsmost the same or even shorter than from beginning of traffic jam. Therefore it sends you directly into traffic jam and doesn't show you better alternatives.


Yes, it's a well known issue of Google Maps - not only in Austria.


----------



## bogdymol

Today early in the morning the Austrian radio speaker mentioned that is a 2h queue at the entrance jn Slovenia. He also said on a very ironic voice, why would someone stay in a queue for 2h only to pay 7,5 Euro for this? There are better alternatives he said. Then presented them briefly (through Italy or through that mountain pass at the north).


----------



## tfd543

I ended up taking the loibl pass instead of karawanken tunnel. Man, that pass is incredible! One of the most scenic routes ive taken. I was happy though to have a 4x4 car.


----------



## keber

tfd543 said:


> I ended up taking the loibl pass instead of karawanken tunnel. Man, that pass is incredible! One of the most scenic routes ive taken. I was happy though to have a 4x4 car.


Now imagine that this was the most important bordercrossing for transit traffic between Yugoslavia and Austria before 1991. Regular traffic jams usually started already just outside Klagenfurt and trucks often needed 24 hours to get over it.

But don't overreact, any car can easily negotiate those ascents.


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Now imagine that this was the most important bordercrossing for transit traffic between Yugoslavia and Austria before 1991. Regular traffic jams usually started already just outside Klagenfurt and trucks often needed 24 hours to get over it.
> 
> But don't overreact, any car can easily negotiate those ascents.


But the Loibltunnel was already there, wasn't it? You didn't have to go through the pass proper?


----------



## Attus

keber said:


> Now imagine that this was the most important bordercrossing for transit traffic between Yugoslavia and Austria before 1991. Regular traffic jams usually started already just outside Klagenfurt and trucks often needed 24 hours to get over it.
> 
> But don't overreact, any car can easily negotiate those ascents.


I suppose he ment the pass, not the Loibl/Ljubelj tunnel. 
I crossed the border twice at Loibl tunnel in 1997 and '98, both times by a Lada 1200S, without significant problems, but I've never been on the pass itself.


----------



## bogdymol

I drove over that pass during summertime with a Ford Focus. You don’t need a 4x4 for it, although a more powerful car is recommended as the slopes are quite steep. It can be done with any car however, just slower.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I first drove the Loibl Pass in 2009 with a small car. It's doable, but it was indeed pretty steep, up to 16% according to cyclingcols.com. The Slovenian side is better than the Austrian side. 

Last month I was driving in Switzerland and it is kind of surprising to see full-size semi trucks on the Grimsel Pass. The weight limit is 32 tons, so as long as you're not fully loaded, any large truck is permitted to drive across it.


----------



## keber

Old pass is not paved and is not open for cars (except for annual oldtimer show)
All traffic goes through tunel already from the opening in 1963 (it was bored through already in 1944, and first tunnel on the pass was built already in 1575)


----------



## g.spinoza

So, has everybody here been driving a closed road?


----------



## tfd543

keber said:


> Now imagine that this was the most important bordercrossing for transit traffic between Yugoslavia and Austria before 1991. Regular traffic jams usually started already just outside Klagenfurt and trucks often needed 24 hours to get over it.
> 
> But don't overreact, any car can easily negotiate those ascents.


Yep before karawankentunnel was opened. So When was it that the loibl pass and tunnel was opened? The latter in the 40’ by nazi prisoners right? Kinda scary..

Nvm. @keber answered that.


----------



## keber

g.spinoza said:


> So, has everybody here been driving a closed road?


Everybody drove over paved road and through tunnel. No one drove over pass.


----------



## g.spinoza

keber said:


> Everybody drove over paved road and through tunnel. No one drove over pass.


Well, @tfd543 and @bogdymol specifically mentioned the pass, so...


----------



## keber

Nope, they were wrong. Tunnel is under the pass, and it is also signed as a pass. But technically it is not a pass. As I said, road over pass is closed for cars already since sixties.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Another big traffic jam at the Karawanken Tunnel today. Not yet as long as last weekend, but it could grow longer this morning. Last weekend the queue stretched to Villach-West.

In previous years, the traffic jam did not typically reached Knoten Villach at peak weekends. The reason is stricter border controls by Slovenia. A9 Spielfeld is also problematic but not as extreme.


----------



## tfd543

^^ Still only southbound? We are in late July now..


----------



## tfd543

keber said:


> Nope, they were wrong. Tunnel is under the pass, and it is also signed as a pass. But technically it is not a pass. As I said, road over pass is closed for cars already since sixties.


Fair, but Can you then pass by foot at the proper pass? You know, just for fun and taking a shot of the 2 border pillars.


----------



## x-type

tfd543 said:


> ^^ Still only southbound? We are in late July now..


You forgot it's still 2020 and you're not dreaming


----------



## bogdymol

g.spinoza said:


> Well, @tfd543 and @bogdymol specifically mentioned the pass, so...


I did not think I had to mention this when I wrote that post:

I drove on the pass (curvy road over the mountain, with many twists and considerable climbing in the first half and going down after the border). But of course, I drove on the normal road, as you can see it also today on Google Maps, though the tunnel at the top. 

This is still technically a pass, even though you don’t reach the top of the mountain but you go through a tunnel below it.


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> This is still technically a pass, even though you don’t reach the top of the mountain but you go through a tunnel below it.


Well, no. A pass is a pass, a saddle between two mountains. A tunnel is a tunnel. Otherwise, if I am traveling on Mont Blanc tunnel, does it mean I reached the top of the mountain?


----------



## Penn's Woods

g.spinoza said:


> So, has everybody here been driving a closed road?


The state of Connecticut used to post signs at the beginning of construction zones - “road legally closed - state liability limited” - while completely normal levels of traffic went through unimpeded. I’m talking on Interstates.

So I guess my answer is Yes. 

Edit: I guess I thought that was a general question, not specific to this pass.
Carry on....


----------



## bogdymol

g.spinoza said:


> Well, no. A pass is a pass, a saddle between two mountains. A tunnel is a tunnel. Otherwise, if I am traveling on Mont Blanc tunnel, does it mean I reached the top of the mountain?


Well, in this case almost all north-south Alpine roads through Austria for example are not passes, but normal roads. There is at least a tunnel somewhere on each one of them.

Sorry, but I disagree with you on this one.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's a matter of definition, the geographical pass or col is the lowest point between two peaks. So a tunnel would go under the pass, either as a summit tunnel (scheiteltunnel) or a base tunnel (basistunnel). I think in colloquial usage, most people would consider the entire road across a mountain pass to be part of the pass. 

I suppose it depends on a case-by-case basis whether something would be considered a pass or tunnel. For example, the Susten Pass has a summit tunnel, but people would still consider the entire road to be going over the Susten Pass. But in case of Felbertauern, the tunnel is so much lower than the mountain range that it's less likely to be considered a pass.


----------



## tfd543

x-type said:


> You forgot it's still 2020 and you're not dreaming


Summer vacation should be over soon pal, at least for northers. They need to go northbound again soon.


----------



## keber

Actually many Germans have just started school holiday.


----------



## tfd543

keber said:


> Actually many Germans have just started school holiday.


Good to know. Less jams When i return in 4 days.


----------



## Attus

In Southern Germany (Bavaria and Baden-Wurttemberg) school holiday began yesterday.


----------



## Eulanthe

bogdymol said:


> I drove over that pass during summertime with a Ford Focus. You don’t need a 4x4 for it, although a more powerful car is recommended as the slopes are quite steep. It can be done with any car however, just slower.


Yes, I've done it in three different cars, and it was quite interesting to see how they coped.

Opel Astra from 2003 with a 1.2 litre engine: it hated it. The engine was overheating (hot summer day) by the time reached the old Austrian border crossing, and we had to stop to let it cool down before continuing. 
VW Passat 1.6 MPI from 2010: so-so. The weight of the car and the weak engine didn't help, but it pulled steadily up the hill. It was really lacking in power at some points though. 
Last year, new Skoda Fabia with a 1.0 TSI engine: it loved it. The car is light and it flew up the hill magnificently and without any issues. If I knew the road was empty, I could probably have gone significantly faster up the hill.


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> Well, in this case almost all north-south Alpine roads through Austria for example are not passes, but normal roads. There is at least a tunnel somewhere on each one of them.
> 
> Sorry, but I disagree with you on this one.


In the mountaineering community you have to prove you have been to the top of a mountain, and you have to set foot exactly on a precise point to make it valid. I claim I climbed Gran Paradiso few years ago but no club will accept my claim because I wasn't actually on the top but 20 m below it (it was snowing in a white out).
So maybe it's my forma mentis due to my climbing activity, but if you say you've been to the pass, you have to have been on the pass, not in a tunnel tens of meters below it.


----------



## bogdymol

g.spinoza said:


> In the mountaineering community you have to prove you have been to the top of a mountain, and you have to set foot exactly on a precise point to make it valid.


We are on a road related forum, discussing about alpine roads. Not mountaineering community.

If we were to go with your theory, then almost nobody has driven a mountain pass, as most of such roads, somehow, through a tunnel or a detour, do not pass onto exactly the highest point of that specific mountain.


----------



## Penn's Woods

bogdymol said:


> We are on a road related forum, discussing about alpine roads. Not mountaineering community.
> 
> If we were to go with your theory, then almost nobody has driven a mountain pass, as most of such roads, somehow, through a tunnel or a detour, do not pass onto exactly the highest point of that specific mountain.


A pass wouldn’t be the highest point, though. It would be the floor of a dip in the skyline. Not technical terms, but I hope I’m clear. And - again without being a specialist - I’d understand “I drove through the pass” as meaning you drove a surface road through that low point.


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> .
> 
> If we were to go with your theory, then almost nobody has driven a mountain pass, as most of such roads, somehow, through a tunnel or a detour, do not pass onto exactly the highest point of that specific mountain.


That's what you say. Most passes in Italy have the road climb the highest spot with no tunnels. If other countries don't do the same it's not my business.
And even if you're right, what's the point? Almost nobody has driven a mountain pass, so what?


----------



## g.spinoza

bogdymol said:


> We are on a road related forum, discussing about alpine roads. Not mountaineering community.


Ah, cool, I didn't know the road enthusiast community have different rules. So, in this community, "I drove a pass" may mean "I didn't drive a pass".
No wonder your "clinched highways" record is so long, if you have so loose an attitude regarding what you drive.

Next update I will add I drove all the roads in Scotland. Never been there, but, hey, Italy is not that far from there, so...


----------



## tfd543

Haha calm down fellas. Who the fk cares anyway. Shitty pass..


----------



## Coccodrillo

I have never heard someone calling "pass" a tunnel, with the exception of the short tunnel on the top of the Susten pass road (which also has a sort of road across the pass, anyway). The Brenner Autobahn also has a short tunnel on the highest point, but on the side of the mountain, not through it). Usually in Europe tunnels across mountains are built under existing pass roads (which might be abandoned when the tunnel opens), so it is obvious to make a difference. A few exceptions are Fréjus, Mont Blanc, Felbtauern and Karawanken tunnels, I don't remember other examples (Munt La Schera is not under a saddle). Also rail tunnels are usually under a pass road, the exceptions here being the Lötschberg and Tauern tunnels (both with a car shuttle service).

Still about naming: the Cascade rail tunnels run under Stevens Pass, so they used a different name for the tunnels than the pass. This is also curious because they first built a railway on the pass, then replaced it with a tunnel, and again replaced the tunnel with another tunnel.

Another naming curiosity is that the first rail tunnel built under Rogers Pass in Canada was named "Connaught Tunnel", and the second "Mount Macdonald Tunnel" (in this case both are still used, usually each one way in opposite directions).

Also, while a pass is the low part between two mountains, the road or railway doesn't necessarly lie son the lowest point, and can be a little bit higher, like the Bernina pass road.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B179 Nassereith*

B179 is closed this week at Nassereith, which is just south of the Fern Pass. The road is closed from today to Friday afternoon and there is no detour available. Traffic is rerouted via Germany. Local traffic can access Nassereith, but non-local traffic will be refused and sent back to Germany. 









Update: Sperre der B 179 Fernpassstraße im Bereich Nassereith


Großräumige Verkehrsumleitung für den Durchreise- und Transitverkehr ab 11. August 2020




www.tirol.gv.at





The tunnel roof of B179 is reportedly in problematic condition. They will do some emergency repairs this week, with a longer-term renovation planned.

This is the old route through Nassereith, unsuitable for high traffic volumes (yet this was only bypassed in 1994!)









The tunnel:


----------



## panda80

ChrisZwolle said:


> *B179 Nassereith*
> 
> B179 is closed this week at Nassereith, which is just south of the Fern Pass. The road is closed from today to Friday afternoon and there is no detour available. Traffic is rerouted via Germany. Local traffic can access Nassereith, but non-local traffic will be refused and sent back to Germany.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Update: Sperre der B 179 Fernpassstraße im Bereich Nassereith
> 
> 
> Großräumige Verkehrsumleitung für den Durchreise- und Transitverkehr ab 11. August 2020
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tirol.gv.at


Already a lot of traffic congestion on the german B23 to Garmisch Partenkirchen. 

Filmed the Fernpass 10 days ago, they should do something on this important traffic corridor, I encountered very often traffic congestion there, in summer and in winter. I think a tunnel under the pass is planned?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Several tunnels have been proposed in the past, including tunnels in the 8-9 kilometer range that would bypass the whole Fernpass + Lermoos area. 

The most likely solution is a 'Scheiteltunnel', a summit tunnel at the Fernpass. However the problems on that route extend beyond just the pass road, the whole B179 is a problem from the German border to Nassereith. Traffic splits at Nassereith.

In 1978, the Tirol government decided not to develop the Fernpass as a transalpine transportation corridor, and put a truck ban into place in 1989. However the reality is that the Fernpass is still a trans-Alpine corridor, just not officially. I think that is also the reason why Nassereith didn't get a bypass until 1994, replacing that narrow main street. It's a problem for politicians to acknowledge reality, in particular if they are ideologically opposed to it. The Fernpass route is nowadays the worst bottleneck in all of Austria outside of Vienna.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> However the problems on that route extend beyond just the pass road, the whole B179 is a problem from the German border to Nassereith. Traffic splits at Nassereith.


And the situation can get even worse once Bavaria will have completed the four tunnels around Garmisch (Tunnel Auerberg, Tunnel Oberau and Kramertunnel). It is the upper right segment of the X routes. The Fernpass is the bottleneck in the middle.

An article from last April: "Umfahrung Scharnitz soll das Vorbild für den Zugspitztalkessel sein“ | Tiroler Tageszeitung Online


----------



## bogdymol

A1 today near exit Vorchdorf. There was quite a lot of traffic (only small passenger cars, as it was a summer week-end). Direction Salzburg:










Direction Vienna:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Seeing that last photo makes me wonder about standards for font sizes in Austria. It looks like that single sign uses 5 or 6 different font sizes, which is more than most countries use. I wonder if all destinations and elements are displayed at a standardized font size, or that they just make work with the space they have?


----------



## rheintram

I think everyone agrees that font sizes in Austria are a mess. Just look at this picture from the article linked above:








"Umfahrung Scharnitz soll das Vorbild für den Zugspitztalkessel sein“ | Tiroler Tageszeitung Online


Die Gemeinden des Zugspitzkessels fürchten den steigenden Verkehr aus Garmisch. Der Lermooser Bürgermeister fordert a...




www.tt.com


----------



## Mortiis

autobahn connecting 21st and 22nd district


----------



## steve5

Voest-Bridge in Linz: Opening of the eastern Bypass today, 28.08.2020:


----------



## bogdymol

I drove on that bridge this morning shortly before 8 am. There was a temporary speed limit of 60 km/h and a small team doing some works, but the bridge was fully opened already (all lanes functional).


----------



## Verso

bogdymol said:


> I did not think I had to mention this when I wrote that post:
> 
> I drove on the pass (curvy road over the mountain, with many twists and considerable climbing in the first half and going down after the border). But of course, I drove on the normal road, as you can see it also today on Google Maps, though the tunnel at the top.
> 
> This is still technically a pass, even though you don’t reach the top of the mountain but you go through a tunnel below it.


We could call it a semi-pass. The Loibl Tunnel lies at an altitude of 1,069 m, which is significantly higher than the Klagenfurt- and Ljubljana Basins. The Karawanken Tunnel OTOH lies at an alt. of just ~600–700 m, which is about as high as Rosenbach and Jesenice.


----------



## x-type

What is the progress of the new Linz bypass with those spectacular tunnels and Donau suspension bridge inbetween?


----------



## steve5

x-type said:


> What is the progress of the new Linz bypass with those spectacular tunnels and Donau suspension bridge inbetween?


donaubrücke a26/westring: mike wolf - linzer brücken-trilogie


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Zillertal.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Zillertal.


Isn’t Mayrhofen in the Zillertal?


----------



## bogdymol

Yes it is.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The _Rollende Landstraße_ (trucks on trains) at the Brenner Pass is declining in usage, down to only a 4% share of truck traffic across the Brenner.










Is this due to increased competition from the Gotthard Base Tunnel? Or is this type of transport falling out of favor? Rail freight peaked in 2008-2009 and has been substantially lower since, also breaking a trend, despite all the incentives against trucking across the Brenner / Alps in general.









From Verkehrsbericht 2019: Publikationen Verkehr


----------



## Shenkey

Could it be that more trains have containers on them and not trucks?


----------



## steve5

Neue Donaubrücke Linz (former Eisenbahnbrücke was road and railway, new bridge is road and tram), 10.09.2020:













Neue Eisenbahnbrücke


Informationen zur Neuen Eisenbahnbrücke



www.linz.at





Start of construction: A26 Bettina/Freinberg Tunnel, 3.2 km, 14.09.2020:





Start of A26 bridge construction (Vierte Linzer Donaubrücke), 10.09.2020:





17.09.2020:













A 26 Linzer Autobahn Knoten Linz Humelhof


Die A 26 Linzer Autobahn ist eines der wichtigsten Projekte zur Verbesserung der Verkehrslage in Linz sowie im Umfeld der oberösterreichischen Landeshauptstadt.




www.asfinag.at


----------



## ChrisZwolle

S36 through Unzmarkt is scheduled to open on 10 November 2020









Tunnel in Unzmarkt steht kurz vor der Eröffnung


Eine der größten Baustellen der Steiermark steht vor dem Abschluss: Im November wird die fast einen Kilometer lange Unterflurtrasse in ...




www.krone.at





Location: OpenStreetMap


----------



## Coccodrillo

On OSM the road between Unzmarkt and nearby St Georgen seems made of a double carriageway (2x2 only), on Google Maps there seems to be a double carriageway but with a single lane per direction and a conventional road (the latter on OSM is drawn as a trail). How is it in reality?









Unzmarkt · 8800, Austria


8800, Austria




www.google.ch


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Satellite image shows a four lane configuration with a local road along side it (except for the tunnel in Unzmarkt itself).


----------



## Adrian.02

roaddor said:


> Any plans when Austria will connect Braunau to Ried/A8 by a motorway? Ridiculous it is still not completed having in mind that this route is the shortest distance between Munich and Vienna.


As far as I know,they won't build such an Autobahn,as they sayd they do not wish to overcrowd the "Innviertel".
On the german side,they are still building the A94,and that will link to the A3 at Pocking,near Passau.
I'm not sure if this route will be shorter than the one through Salzburg though.


----------



## pascalwithvespa95

Adrian.02 said:


> As far as I know,they won't build such an Autobahn,as they sayd they do not wish to overcrowd the "Innviertel".
> On the german side,they are still building the A94,and that will link to the A3 at Pocking,near Passau.
> I'm not sure if this route will be shorter than the one through Salzburg though.


It will be shorter and quicker. Also less traffic and fewer speed limits.


----------



## cinxxx

I already took that route even while I lived in Ingolstadt and with the missing part in the middle that now exists. The A3 was full of trucks and had some really bad pavement.


----------



## bogdymol

I also drove that route several times. On the German part there is full motorway up to close to the border, with the rest being u/c or will be within a few years u/c. For a motorway traffic is relatively low, so no congestion in this area.

On the Austrian side there is only a small village in the way, other than that is mostly outside inhabited area with a speed limit of 100 km/h. However, there are a few speed restrictions for various reasons plus many curves, thus you cannot really overtake. The result is a lot of traffic following a lorry or another slower vehicle. Not the most pleasant way to drive.

I really cannot understand the locals. Instead of having a modern motorway or expressway bypassing all local roads, which in 2020 would definitely be built with noise barriers all around and speed limits to keep noise & pollution down, they rather have a lot of lorries mixing with their local traffic, producing a lot of unnecessary gas pollution at every speed limit, roundabout or whatever. And believe me, there are a lot of lorries on this section as it is a bit shorter and the overall lorry road fees (which are km based and apply only on motorways) are much lower.


----------



## pascalwithvespa95

bogdymol said:


> I also drove that route several times. On the German part there is full motorway up to close to the border, with the rest being u/c or will be within a few years u/c. For a motorway traffic is relatively low, so no congestion in this area.
> 
> On the Austrian side there is only a small village in the way, other than that is mostly outside inhabited area with a speed limit of 100 km/h. However, there are a few speed restrictions for various reasons plus many curves, thus you cannot really overtake. The result is a lot of traffic following a lorry or another slower vehicle. Not the most pleasant way to drive.
> 
> I really cannot understand the locals. Instead of having a modern motorway or expressway bypassing all local roads, which in 2020 would definitely be built with noise barriers all around and speed limits to keep noise & pollution down, they rather have a lot of lorries mixing with their local traffic, producing a lot of unnecessary gas pollution at every speed limit, roundabout or whatever. And believe me, there are a lot of lorries on this section as it is a bit shorter and the overall lorry road fees (which are km based and apply only on motorways) are much lower.


I also think that a motorway via Braunau would be better, but most of the traffic will use A94-A3 when it is completed. So there will be less traffic on austrian B148


----------



## roaddor

Very strange if Austria doesn't build its part from Braunau to A8 near Ried. I cannot see any logic behind such a decision (if this is the case). Neither money is the problem nor the terrain. 
We are talking about the most direct path between the capitals of Austria and Bavaria.


----------



## Adrian.02

I agree with @bogdymol .I also drove through that area in summer,and the Bundesstrasse 148 was full of trucks from Ort im Innkreis until Braunau!
(Needless to say that a high percentage of those trucks and cars were registered in Romania and other central-european states like Hungary and Slovakia.)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The replacement of the Terfens Bridge of A12 across the Inn River will be completed this week, with no restrictions from 9 November. The project has cost € 41 million and is completed six months ahead of schedule. It was the largest bridge replacement project in Western Austria over the past few years.


----------



## Mortiis

beautiful video showing famous ringstraße road..


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Perjen Tunnel of S16 at Landeck has opened with both tubes for the first time today. The tunnel was twinned in 2018, but they had to rehabilitate the existing tube, so today marks the first time with traffic separated through both tubes. Four lanes will be available from December.















Pressemeldungen | ASFINAG







www.asfinag.at


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A photo of the opening ceremony of S36 through Unzmarkt-Frauenburg. The new expressway will open to traffic tomorrow at 1400 hours. The new four lane expressway is 5.5 kilometers long and connects to the tunnel under St. Georgen ob Judenburg that opened in 2015. Together, they form a 7 kilometer segment of expressway.

Additionally, the missing link from Judenburg to St. Georgen is scheduled to start construction in 2025 and be completed by 2030.


















Neue Schnellstraße im Murtal bringt mehr Verkehrssicherheit und Lebensqualität


Fünfeinhalb Kilometer langer Abschnitt der S 36 von St. Georgen bis Unzmarkt ist fertig




www.asfinag.at


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*S18 Bodensee Schnellstraße*









ASFINAG hat Entscheidung zur S 18 Bodensee Schnellstraße getroffen: CP-Variante als eindeutige Favoritin durch Experten festgelegt


Wichtiger Meilenstein für die weitere Entwicklung der S 18 Bodensee Schnellstraße: Die ASFINAG hat die fachliche Variantenentscheidung abgeschlossen und die sogenannten CP-Variante als Favoritin aus den Expertenuntersuchungen festgelegt.




www.asfinag.at





Variant CP has been judged to be the preferred alternative for S18, which is a planned 8.5 kilometer link between Austrian A14 and Swiss A13. The cost estimate is € 1.3 - 1.5 billion, which translates to a staggering € 150 - 175 million per kilometer.


----------



## MichiH

Note that this is the "favorite route" - in German, they used the female term: Favorit*in* - gender craziness 😱


----------



## italystf

It's ashtonishing that two rich European countries like Austria and Switzerland still don't have a motorway connection between them as of 2020.


----------



## italystf

Are they planning some other motorway sections from Unzmarkt (S36) towards Klagenfurt?


----------



## MichiH

italystf said:


> Are they planning some other motorway sections from Unzmarkt (S36) towards Klagenfurt?


No. Only the S36 gap east of the now opened section is planned to be closed. The existing S37 down to Klagenfurt got (or will get?) a "safety upgrade" but the 30km gap between S37 and S36 will remain for the time being.









OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


----------



## italystf

So, why the little village of Unzmarkt is relevant enough to become a motorway terminus?


----------



## valkrav

Shenkey said:


> Do they tone it down at night? I know people are complaining in Slovenia about some tunnel with new lighting.


Good question
IMHO *Modern* tunnel lighting must be adaptive.
During day more light and more light immediately after entering and before exit.
And if outside we have bad weather with dark sky lighting inside must be less.

I think now is not so difficult and expensive to make all of these.


----------



## MichiH

Autobahn89 said:


> Hi Guys,
> Anybody knows what’s up with the A3 Motorway in Austria? It was that it will be extended till the HUN border, but seems due to local people’s demonstration nothing happened at austrian’s side. HUN M85 will be opened in 16th of Dec till East-Sopron and the last section till the border will be ready in 2024.


A news report from November 2019 quotes a former minister that construction works might start in 2027. 8 years ahead. In 2016, the estimation was 2023 - only 7 years ahead. I don't expect construction works in 2020s - if ever.






BIG A3 – Überparteiliche Bürgerplattform gegen dein Weiterbau der A3







stopp-verlaengerung-a3.at


----------



## Corvinus

^^ Those NIMBYs behind the Bürgerplattform site even acknowledge the obvious advantage an A3 completion would result in:


> Wenn in Ungarn die Autobahnverbindung über Sopron fertig gestellt ist, erspart sich der Schwerverkehr aus dem Großraum Budapest – Györ auf dem Weg zur Südautobahn ca. 40 mautpflichtige Kilometer und 1,5 Stunden Fahrtzeit gegenüber der Strecke über Wien!
> Zur Südautobahn führt der Weg über Sopron! 138 km anstelle von 175 km und Stau in Wien.


Problem is simply, while that would mean an overall economy, it would likely result in more traffic _near them_. While they all want well-stocked stores for all types of goods, they don't want any of the price for that (truck traffic) ....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't think there would be that much truck traffic from Graz to Budapest that travels all the way via Vienna. Most of that traffic could shift to S7 via Körmend anyway, not via Sopron.

A21 to Hungary is a much bigger flow of truck traffic. Even there A4 will remain the shortest route, M85 won't make it that much shorter.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

On 10 December 1980, 40 years ago today, the Pfänder Tunnel of A14 around Bregenz opened to traffic.

The 6.7 kilometer long tunnel was initially built as a single tube, a second tube opened in 2012. 

The original plans for A14 called for a motorway through the Bregenz waterfront. A local referendum in 1960 saw 90% of the population vote for a route through the mountains, but the goverment continued plans for a motorway through Bregenz anyway, proposing a depressed motorway along the railway in 1967 and plans being finalized in 1969. After an embarrasing electoral defeat in 1970, the plans were scrapped and the tunnel was built between 1977 and 1980.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Another segment of the A4 six laning has been completed. There are now six lanes over a distance of 20 kilometers from the Schwechat interchange (S1) to the Göttlesbrunn rest area. It will extend to Bruck an der Leitha-West by spring 2021.





__





Pressemeldungen | ASFINAG







www.asfinag.at


----------



## Adrian.02

I remember that they were working on the A4 this summer.Well,it's good to hear that they are widening it!


----------



## kdpy

When may be built S1 Wien bypass?


----------



## rower2000

kdpy said:


> When may be built S1 Wien bypass?


They plan to start construction on the last section in 2021. So, knowing Austrian NIMBYism, and that some approvals are yet to be granted - which can then be challenged in court, I'd estimate 2022 to 2023 for construction to start. The major hurdle, the environmental impact assessment, has been upheld by the courts.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The S3 extension from Hollabrunn to Guntersdorf will open to traffic on Friday (18 December). This is an 11 kilometer long 2+1 road, which bypasses three more villages on the way to the Czech Republic.









Endlich! Die S 3 ist fertig


Die offizielle Eröffnung erfolgt am Freitag – und ohne Fest.




www.noen.at


----------



## rheintram

here's a short local news report (video):




__





ORF-TVthek


Nachrichten, Magazine, Dokumentationen, Diskussionen, Kultur, Sport, Shows, Comedys, Filme, Serien, Regional- und Kindersendungen: Die Videoplattform ORF-TVthek bietet mehr als 200 ORF-TV-Sendungen als Livestream und Video-on-Demand an. Die Videoarchive erlauben zudem einen Blick ins ORF-Archiv...




tvthek.orf.at


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A € 1.8 billion mobility package for northern Niederösterreich (Lower Austria) has been agreed upon by the federal and state government. The most important takeway is that it won't include a so-called 'Waldviertelautobahn', which was proposed to run east-west between S10 and S3.

Oppontents cited an impending avalanche of trucks but I don't really see where they would be coming from as there is no logical extension to the west from Freistadt. In fact there are almost no places bigger than a village in that region, I suppose traffic volumes would be very low on such a route, even if it would be a much faster connection. I don't see how Linz - Vienna traffic would use this route as it is much more out of the way than A1. The region it would run through has a very low population density of 50 per km².









Autobahn-Bau im Waldviertel ist Geschichte


Sie kommt also nicht: Die Waldviertel-Autobahn ist mit der Ankündigung des „Mobiliätspakets nördliches Niederösterreich“ endgültig Geschichte. An ...




www.krone.at














To me it seems that a motorway upgrade of S3 from Guntersdorf to the Czech border towards Znojmo would be more useful if the Czechs also built a motorway continuation. That would cut some 40 kilometers off the distance from Prague to Vienna in comparison with a route via Brno.


----------



## HarlingenHardest

Driving down the S36 (Mur valley) from St Georgen ob Judenburg - Unzmarkt. Tunnel Unzmarkt is open since 10 november this year.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

S6 near the Semmering Pass:


S6 - Semmering-Pass (AS Maria Schutz) &amp; Skiing Area by Etienne Muijtjens, on Flickr


----------



## rheintram

Drove on *S16* recently after a long while. I kind of like this road, due to the many different characteristics it has. Since November both tubes of Perjentunnel are open. On the tyrolean side now most parts of S16 are 2+2 and almost Autobahn-like. To me, the strangest part is still where A12 and S16 connect after Zams-Landeck Ost. Especially when you drive at night, this badly lit "Galerie Lötz" or Zammer tunnel is such a striking contrast to A12. It's even stranger these days, when you have the 2+2 Perjentunnel directly adjacent to it...

I found a local news article that explains why this chokepoint still exists. Apparently in 2016 a rockslide hit the small settlement directly above this tunnel. Until then it was planned to mirror the existing tunnel/gallery with a second one in the south. This project had already been finalized and approved when the rockslide hit. While it did not destroy or damage the existing tunnel/gallery, it made adjustments necessary, so it would withstand any similar events in the future. Hence, the existing tunnel will be completely replaced.

The new timetable for the project is as follows:
2021: Preparatory works, including the construction of a bridge over the Lötzach river begin. This bridge will serve as a western access point for building the new southern tube
2022/23: Construction of a new 950 m long southern tube. Once completed, all traffic will be redirected to this new tube.
2024/25: Complete reconstruction of the existing northern tube.
2026: Project complete, both tubes open. 

Costs are estimated at 60 Mio Euro (seems quite low to me).








ASFINAG: Zammer Lötzgalerie wird bis 2026 vierspurig


ZAMS (otko). Der Sicherheitsausbau auf der S16 Arlberg Schnellstraße zwischen Landeck-West und Zams geht weiter. Ab 2021 der Abschnitt Lötzgalerie auf vier Fahrstreifen ausgebaut.




www.meinbezirk.at


----------



## MichiH

OSM indicates it u/c: OpenStreetMap


----------



## keber

5 years for construction of just 2 km of one carriageway and renovation of other looks quite German ...


----------



## MichiH

keber said:


> 5 years for construction of just 2 km of one carriageway and renovation of other looks quite German ...


Well, it is a "tunnel" and it all happens "under traffic". The first year is just preliminary works and building a bridge which is required for access to the tunnel construction site. I think the construction time is still okay..


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I do believe that tunnel renovations have gotten significantly longer in duration. I believe that 10-15 years ago this was a job of 9 - 12 months, except maybe for the longest tunnels, but they now routinely take up 2 years even for medium length tunnels. 

For example the Tauern Tunnel renovation took 14 months, the Katschberg Tunnel 12 months, but the more recent Gleinalm Tunnel took 27 months.


----------



## rheintram

Except we are not talking about a tunnel renovation in the classical sense. It's a complete rebuild. If the northern tube wouldn't have to be rebuilt the whole project would be finished in 2023. In fact, it would have already been done. Also the project includes builing new rockfall protection, which will also be done in 2021. This explains the long prepartory phase before the actual construction. I assume these barriers can only be built during summer.

edit: I found another article explaining that the two new tunnels will be built in a square shape and will be completely closed, unlike the existing Tube.


----------



## pccvspw999

panda80 said:


> […]The motorway is subject to special tolls and is not part of the vignette system in Austria. […]


Are You sure? I knew that a vignette is still necessary (or equivalent system), only the stretch with the Europa Bridge has a supplementary/alternative toll.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The so-called '_Sondermautstrecken_' do not require a vignette. However in practice most of these special toll roads are not accessible without first driving on roads that require a vignette. 

In case of A13, the entire motorway from Innsbruck to the Brenner Pass is a _Sondermautstrecke_. You pay for the entire motorway at the Schönberg toll plaza.


----------



## pccvspw999

For example: of You drive from Brenner to Nößlach, do You have to have a Vignette?


----------



## g.spinoza

pccvspw999 said:


> For example: of You drive from Brenner to Nößlach, do You have to have a Vignette?


No. Brennerautobahn is vignette-free until Innsbruck-Süd. 
I drove that stretch bimonthly for a year, so I am pretty sure.

Also, look at this sign before Innsbruck-Süd coming from Italy:









Google Maps


Trova attività commerciali locali, visualizza mappe e trova indicazioni stradali in Google Maps.




www.google.it





It warns the driver that, from there on, they'll need a vignette.


----------



## pccvspw999

Thanks ChrisZwolle,
thanks G.Spinoza.
Now it’s clear, and Panda80 was right.


----------



## Shenkey

Katschberg also has a special toll.


----------



## Eulanthe

ChrisZwolle said:


> In case of A13, the entire motorway from Innsbruck to the Brenner Pass is a _Sondermautstrecke_. You pay for the entire motorway at the Schönberg toll plaza.


The tolling is interestingly unfair between Schönberg and the border. You have to pay the entire amount even if you enter at Schönberg. Yet 3 euro is charged between Schönberg and Innsbruck-Sud.


----------



## keber

A renovated tunnel begining in 1:10 appears to have really good lightning. That should be a norm for renovated or new tunnels in 2020ies.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Eulanthe said:


> The tolling is interestingly unfair between Schönberg and the border. You have to pay the entire amount even if you enter at Schönberg. Yet 3 euro is charged between Schönberg and Innsbruck-Sud.


That's a problem with all open systems (where you pay a flat fare* every time you pass a specific point, independently of the kilometres). This could change by using transponders or ANPR. AFAIK A5 in Italy uses such a system beyont Aosta towards the Mont Blanc tunnel. People without a transponder (Telepass) pay a flat fare unrelated to which exit they take*, while people with a Telepass pay only for the section they use (so they pay less than vehicles without Telepass for less distance, and the same if using the whole motorway).

*the fare varies according to the vehicle type, so a bus pays more than a car, however within the same category all vehicles pay the same wether they travel 1 or 100 km


----------



## rheintram

I hope sooner or later we'll have a common European road pricing scheme. That way you don't have to buy different vignettes or transponders and just pay for the kilometers you drive, no matter in which country.


----------



## Jachoslaw

Last year when I was coming home from Italy I stayed for one night in Neustift im Stubaital. I was very surprised that I had to pay extra € 3.50 while entering Brenner Autobahn towards Innsbruck. I thought that I payed for the whole strech on the toolbooth on main road the day before. After reading this thread I know that supplementary toll begins with Europabruecke  and I want to visit Stubaital one more time


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Austrians have reached the state border at the second tube of the Karawanken Tunnel. The Austrians are boring from their end, the Slovenes from their end, but the Slovenian segment is behind schedule.


----------



## Eulanthe

rheintram said:


> I hope sooner or later we'll have a common European road pricing scheme. That way you don't have to buy different vignettes or transponders and just pay for the kilometers you drive, no matter in which country.


It's in the pipeline, although it's politically a very hot potato for some countries. The European Commission has repeatedly signalled that distance-based tolling for motorways is to be achieved, but it raises a lot of issues.

For instance, Warsaw-Split is around 1400km. Charging 'standard' tolls - i.e. around 0.10 EUR/km - would mean 140 Euro in tolls in one direction, something really, really unacceptable to many people, and it would also heavily discourage mobility and tourism.


----------



## tfd543

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Austrians have reached the state border at the second tube of the Karawanken Tunnel. The Austrians are boring from their end, the Slovenes from their end, but the Slovenian segment is behind schedule.


SLO also need to implement e-toll at the tunnel like A has. Is it 23 or 24’ its supposed to open?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

tfd543 said:


> Is it 23 or 24’ its supposed to open?


'late 2025' for the new tube. The existing tube will then be renovated. It may not open with four lanes until well in 2027.

Breakthrough of the tube is not expected until fall 2023 due to the delay at the Slovenian side.


----------



## Verso

^ We can speed that up if Austrians just keep digging. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## keber

It doesn't work that way. But it it possible to speed up (currently 1400 m or 40% of lenght was dug - 500 m just in last 3 months), also Turkish contractor is promising speeding up. It also depends of conditions in the fault about 2600 m into the mountain from Slovenian side, which posed great problems and delays of many months when building first tube.


----------



## Shenkey

Couldn't Cengiz also drill from Austrian side?


----------



## Verso

I've noticed some new signs on A2 by Graz. I think it's quite narrow-minded to sign just Spielfeld and SLO, and ignore Maribor, which is just 53 km away and just 14 km further from Spielfeld. Signing just a border village is such a cold-war mentality.

And if you're coming from Linz, there's a new sign with just "Marburg", which is also very unusual in Austria. This sign on the right is also terrible.

Distance signs are also super-cosmopolitan. I've never even heard of Lebring, and I'm sure most foreigners haven't heard of Wildon and Wundschuh either. Strange that not even Spielfeld is signed.

Old signs were better.


----------



## celevac

Verso said:


> I've noticed some new signs on A2 by Graz. I think it's quite narrow-minded to sign just Spielfeld and SLO, and ignore Maribor, which is just 53 km away and just 14 km further from Spielfeld. Signing just a border village is such a cold-war mentality.


Absolutely agree. The signage around Graz area is terrible. Even within Austria, not everyone is familiar with the village of Spielfeld and I think it is against the spirit of the Schengen zone (or whatever is left of it these days) to be so narrow-minded. Around Vienna, it's much better with Prague, Brno, Bratislava, Budapest on various signs. 

On A9 towards the south, the signs should ideally read: "Zagreb - Ljubljana - Maribor", also on the distance signs, especially considering this is a very heavily used transit route in summer time. 
If you drive around Ljubljana, Graz is signposted on many signs for A1 alongside with Maribor which I think is the right thing to do. Coming from Zagreb on Croatian A2, at least Maribor is always mentioned. 

But I am not surprised. Some Austrians still think of their neighbors to the south and east as "Ostblock" etc. Considering the ongoing "covid-related" border controls at Spielfeld towards Austria, which most likely have not had any impact on covid cases, I like the German "Käseglocke Österreich" (literally translated: cheese dome Austria) that people have used to describe the situation.


----------



## ionutzyankoo

Slartibartfas said:


> No we aren't. That is precisely why I am speechless when politicians are selling us a major new suburban highway as means of reducing traffic loads. That's indeed 1960s right there.
> 
> I was not talking about the "historic city center" though. I was talking about central Vienna. That is where almost half of the entire city population lives and a considerably larger shares of jobs are located and which is the primary destination for commuters. Maybe the importance of urban Vienna compared to suburban Vienna is a consequence of having no such full beltway system. You get what you build.
> 
> Of course, if you create fully car-centric infrastructure on the outskirts you'll shift the urban landscape from sustainable dense neighbourhoods where people have options to edge cities made primarily or entirely for the car. I'd rather induce sustainable neighbourhoods where people have mobility choices.
> 
> I am open for compromise though, if the A23 were to be reduced in capacity by the amount of capacity created by the new tunnel, than it would be indeed a shift and reduction of traffic load in central Vienna. But weirdly enough no one is suggesting that, or even horrified by such a proposal, simply because the reduction of "Verkehrsbelastung" is just a lie and everyone knows it.


I agree with the compromise you are suggesting (reducing capacity on A23) but Mrs. Gewessler didn't at least forwarded this as an option, she just said no. This is unacceptable in my opinion for a politician, who should have a good negociation skill. And another thing, after S1 will be build Vienna can ban transit/truck traffic on A23 as we all know that these are the big poluters, not small city cars. It is crazy to just cancel a project which was agreed to be build by law. I would understand this if it would have been build at surface through the Lobau greenery, but being a tunnel will have way less environmental issues.


----------



## Slartibartfas

ionutzyankoo said:


> I agree with the compromise you are suggesting (reducing capacity on A23) but Mrs. Gewessler didn't at least forwarded this as an option, she just said no.


She should have but the outcome would have probably been the same. I really can't imagine that those now dead against her decision would have accepted that alternative.
In the end the tunnel might be just posptoned not stopped. We will see. The Gürtel Highway also didn't make it in the end, at least in the west it didn't at all, even though it was deemed crucial at the time.

I think the Lobau itself isn't the primary issue here, at least not much more than an excuse. It really is about what kind of cityscape we want to induce. The tunnel is also very expensive and not necessarily the best use of public money.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> I just realized that it was not yet reported on this thread, that the Lobau tunnel project (S1 Vienna beltway) was canceled. I didn't follow the news in detail. Is it canceled for good or is there still a (tiny) chance?
> Which other road projects have recently been stopped, only S1 and S34?


So, back to my questions. If I got it right, only the S1 beltway with Lobau tunnel project has recently been stopped. Maybe S8 too? And S34 design should be modified. However, there still seems to be chance to get S1 built because there is an opposition who wants to take legal action. Am I right?


----------



## Slartibartfas

MichiH said:


> So, back to my questions. If I got it right, only the S1 beltway with Lobau tunnel project has recently been stopped. Maybe S8 too? And S34 design should be modified. However, there still seems to be chance to get S1 built because there is an opposition who wants to take legal action. Am I right?


The tunnel is stopped for good. If the legal actions against the decision are unsuccessful and if successor governments don't undo the decision.
In other words, realistically speaking it is stopped until further notice.

The euphemistically called "Stadtstraße" (which is for the longest part like a highway) is going ahead as planned as it is a municipal project. The S1 itself, minus the tunnel part is uncertain. It is my understanding that it might be realized nonetheless but I am confused regarding that too.


----------



## sponge_bob

The S10 to the Czech Border has been renumbered as the 404 . Looks like the 404 will be the longest road in Austria soon. 



https://www.bmk.gv.at/themen/verkehr/strasse/infrastruktur/projekte/schnellstrassen/s10.html


----------



## Luki_SL

^^303, 404 to the Czech border. When will be 505 in use?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The safety upgrade of S31 is completed to Weppersdorf. However four bridges near Sieggraben are not wide enough for four lanes. These will have additional bridges built from late 2022 to 2026.

Asfinag shared the details:

The location of the project & bridges:

Sieggraben-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

_Talübergang Jüdingsau_


length: 465 meters
max. pylon height: 44,5 m
9 pylons with span of 50 m


Sieggraben-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


_Talübergang Marzau_

length: 376 m
max. pylon height: 46,0 m
7 pylons with span of 50 m


Sieggraben-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


_Talübergang Groisbach_ 

length: 412 m
max. pylon height: 56,0 m
8 pylons with span of 50 m


Sieggraben-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


_Talübergang Auwiesenbach_

length: 360 m
max. pylon height: 32,5 m
10 pylons with span of 34 m


Sieggraben-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## sven_engelen

The A12 between Wörgl and Innsbruck. A quite boring autobahn even though it goes through a beautiful area. The endless sound barriers and low 100 km/h speed limit sure make it boring.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Erste geplante Vollsperre des Arlbergtunnels (S 16 Arlberg Schnellstraße) wird verschoben – Sperren in den Jahren 2023 und 2024 geplant | ASFINAG


Die für heuer geplante Vollsperre des Arlbergtunnels wird verschoben.




www.asfinag.at





The scheduled 6 month closure of the Arlberg Tunnel will not take place in 2022. It was originally scheduled to rehabilitate the 44 year old pavement during two long-term closures of the tunnel in the summer season of 2022 and 2023.

However, due to the shortages in labor, machinery and supply chain issues, they could not guarantee that the tunnel would reopen before the first serious snowfall on the Arlberg Pass. So they decided to move the works by one year. 

The Arlberg Tunnel is the longest road tunnel in Austria (13,972 meters).


----------



## celevac

Regarding S7 expressway in Styria/Burgenland:
At the future Riegersdorf interchange, they have started installing signalisation for S7 in the direction Vienna-->Graz. It now says "Graz (H)" if you drive straight, the H for Hungary refers to the Ilz/Fürstenfeld exit shortly after, and the future exit to S7 says "gesperrt" (road closed). The signalisation can be changed as desired. No such signs visible yet driving north towards Vienna. Observations as of today.

The latest news I had regarding this section was from mid-2021 that the completion will take until 2024, thus another year longer than planned. 

Now I found this article from last week saying things could take until early 2025 (!):








Schnellstraße S7 erreicht Königsdorf


Mit 16. Februar beginnt „Baulos 2“ rund um die Gemeinde Königsdorf. Im Sommer erreicht die Baustelle Heiligenkreuz. Die Fertigstellung könnte sich jedoch bis Anfang 2025 verzögern.




www.bvz.at





It would be so nice to see this one finally finished. Hungary's M80 has been in operation for a couple of months now... I wish they could at least open the western part already sooner, looks quite advanced.


----------



## rheintram

B169 Zillertalstraße Bypass Fügen: recently a court decided that the project is in the public interest and dismissed appeals by neighbors. Now environmental impact assessment etc will start. Current cost estimates are about 95 million euros. 








Umfahrung Fügen nimmt rechtliche Hürde


Die geplante Umfahrung für Fügen im Zillertal (Bezirk Schwaz) hat eine wesenliche rechtliche Hürde genommen. Das Landesverwaltungsgericht wies alle Einsprüche ab, das öffentliche Interesse wurde bestätigt.




tirol.orf.at





Here's an older visualisation:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Covid is largely gone, so they anticipate a large amount of holiday traffic in Tirol this summer.

This means that the driving bans on secondary roads, last used in 2019, will be introduced again, starting with the Pentecost holidays in early June.

At Innsbruck, almost all secondary routes are banned for through traffic. They expect massive traffic congestion on A12 and A13 due to construction at Innsbruck-Süd.









A number of traffic lights will be installed on B-roads around Kufstein, which limit the amount of traffic going through there. This will impact not just holiday traffic, but Tirolean citizens as well.









A number of travel bans and traffic lights will be installed north of Reutte to force everyone onto B179. There used to be a traffic light at Reutte-Süd which caused massive traffic congestion so everyone drove through the town.


----------



## ASB298

On the route from Vienna to Villach A2 will there be any roadworks in June and summer? Thanks


----------



## italystf

How can they check whether one stops in a certain village or just drive through?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Gute Fahrt, Weiz!


Der Lebens- und Wirtschaftsraum Weiz hat in den letzten Jahrzehnten ordentlich an Fahrt aufgenommen.




www.news.steiermark.at





A new alignment of B64 through Weiz in Steiermark (Styria) opened to traffic today. It has two tunnels.

Location: OpenStreetMap


----------



## rheintram

A local news report from tonight about ASFINAG's S18 plans. Includes some new visuals, but only in the Lustenau section. A few things I took from the visualizations (the report itself was not very informative):

L204 (currently four lanes) would be more than doubled in size. In addition to the four existing lanes a parallel four lanes (or more) will be built north of the existing ones. Most likely these lanes will be also part of S18, while the southern ones would stay as part of L204.
After Exist Lustenau Süd (northbound) a ramp would be built that would lead to a tunnel starting just south of the existing Vorachstraße.
Just a couple of m north of Hofsteigstraße it would move to the surface. Though this section would be also covered with a hill. This seems strange but it is most likely so that the access ramps for the Exit Lustenau Mitte would not be too steep.
Exit Lustenau Mitte would be built as a roundabout ontop of a covered Autobahn with four ramps and a connection to the Scheibenstraße local road and to the Hofsteigstraße road. This exit is the strangest and probably most questionable if you look at the local roads it connects to. The connection to Hofsteigstraße, which is a more important road, seems to only lead away from Lustenau and thus not particularly useful. Scheibenstraße itself is not even a two lane road and barely feasible as an access road. It might make sense to directly connect the exit to Bildgasse and the industrial area there, but this doesn't seem to be the case! From the visualization you can see that the newly built access road is a couple of dozen meters further south and leads to nowhere. Very strange.
this is the location: Google Maps
the Scheibenbach river will be moved to the west of S18. There doesn't seem to be a good reason for this, at least none I can easly see.
Altogether Lustenau Mitte seems to be pretty useless. It's too far north to make any sense traffic wise.
There will be third exit in this town, Lustenau Nord, but the report didn't show anything north of the Mitte exit.






ORF-TVthek


Nachrichten, Magazine, Dokumentationen, Diskussionen, Kultur, Sport, Shows, Comedys, Filme, Serien, Regional- und Kindersendungen: Die Videoplattform ORF-TVthek bietet mehr als 200 ORF-TV-Sendungen als Livestream und Video-on-Demand an. Die Videoarchive erlauben zudem einen Blick ins ORF-Archiv...




tvthek.orf.at


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## rheintram

Two quick sketches I made to illustrate my questions about this exit:

















You can clearly see that it connects to the local road network at a very very strange point (4). The second connection to the local road network leads away from Lustenau towards Wolfurt/Dornbirn. I don't understand how that makes any sense at all (3).

Also I just realized that I misunderstood the L204 situation. Apparently it would be four lanes in each directions. If you want to travel from Dornbirn to Lustenau in the future you would need to take the flyover. Makes you wonder how tractors, mopeds etc. will travel between the two towns in the future...


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## rower2000

Some more points:

It is still under consideration to close Hofsteigstraße to all motorized traffic (probably except for agricultural traffic), together with Senderstraße, Zellgasse and Höchsterstraße, essentially making the Ried area free of motorized traffic. That would likely result in the eastern arm of the Lustenau-Mitte intersection to disappear, leaving only the access road to the commercial area.
Slow traffic between Millenium Park and Dornbirn-West will likely be rerouted via Glaserweg and the collector roads that already exist in parallel to L204. S18 will be two lanes per direction, not four lanes per direction.
Opposed to earlier plans, Rhine river is now supposed to be crossed by a tunnel rather than a bridge. S18 will be underground or enclosed from close to Millenium Park the whole way until short of the border crossing, where the Höchst interchange is planned at Brugger Straße.
IMHO, not wanting to discuss any alternative routings here, I see one optimization potential: leave away the Lustenau-Mitte junction - that commercial area can easily be served via Lustenau-Nord and L203. Consequently, S18 could be left below the terrain datum plane in that area, enhancing the access from Lustenau to the Ried and mitigating concerns of landscape protection.


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## rheintram

The resolution is not good but the section between Dornbirn Süd and Lustenau Süd seems to be more than just 2+2 lanes.


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## ChrisZwolle

A covered bridge near Elmen (Reutte) is closed due to a danger of collapse. It is a wooden bridge and the main beam tore up.









Brücke über Lech droht Einsturz


Die Klimmbrücke in Elmen (Bezirk Reutte) ist akut einsturzgefährdet. Wie Bürgermeister Markus Sojer gegenüber ORF Tirol bestätigte, ist der Hauptträger gebrochen. Jetzt soll der Lech umgeleitet werden, um die Brücke zu stützen, da sonst weitere Probleme drohen.




tirol.orf.at


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## ChrisZwolle

I've visited the Europa Bridge of the A13 Brenner Autobahn earlier this month. 

This bridge is 820 meters long and 192 meters high. It was built between 1959 and 1963, and was the highest bridge in Europe at that time. I don't think there is an older bridge of this calibre in Europe.

A little report.

1. View from the Europe Chapel (Europakapell), built on a hill near the bridge. The Karwendel Mountains north of Innsbruck are in the background, which is prominently visible when driving A13 to Innsbruck.

A13 Europabrücke 01 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. 

A13 Europabrücke 02 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. The chapel, you can view through it. It was built in 1963. 22 workers were killed during the construction of the bridge. 

A13 Europabrücke 09 by European Roads, on Flickr

4.

A13 Europabrücke 13 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. The rest area (Raststation) Europobrücke. The Serles (2718 m) is in the background, which is the first mountain on the left when driving into the Stubai Valley. 

A13 Europabrücke 11 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. 

A13 Europabrücke 16 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. View over the Karwendel Mountains. The highest point is 2749 m. The Inn River Valley is before it, where Innsbruck is located.

A13 Europabrücke 19 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. Raststation. 

A13 Europabrücke 21 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. Autobahnstation.

A13 Europabrücke 23 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. You can see the bridge is a giant steel box.

A13 Europabrücke 25 by European Roads, on Flickr

11. Side view from B182.

A13 Europabrücke 29 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

I was driving on A1 from Salzburg to Linz earlier this month and my in-car navigation system showed a 140 km/h speed limit.

140 km/h has never been introduced in Austria, right? It is 130 km/h on the Autobahn and was at one point trialed at 160 km/h on some stretches but that was years ago...


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## Adrian.02

^
If I recall correctly, there was in fact a 140 km/h trial on two sections of the A1 Autobahn, which lasted between 2018 and early 2020.


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## MichiH

^ yep, on a 16km stretch where the pic was taken and on another 44km long stretch.


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## ChrisZwolle

Aha. This stretch of A1 has six lanes and is pretty straight.


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## ChrisZwolle

The 2023 vignette prices will be raised by 2.8%

The 2023 prices;


10-days: € 9.90
2 months: € 29.00
Year: € 96.40

I'm wondering though, who is the target audience for a 2 month vignette? I think most tourists or transit traffic purchases either one or two 10-day vignettes.


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## keber

Probably those who buy cars in the second half of the year or are seasonal workers in Austria tourist industry.


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## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> The 2023 vignette prices will be raised by 2.8%
> 
> The 2023 prices;
> 
> 
> 10-days: € 9.90
> 2 months: € 29.00
> Year: € 96.40
> 
> I'm wondering though, who is the target audience for a 2 month vignette? I think most tourists or transit traffic purchases either one or two 10-day vignettes.


People living in Hungary, Slovenia or Slovakia, visiting or crossing Austria several times in a summer.


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## italystf

Attus said:


> People living in Hungary, Slovenia or Slovakia, visiting or crossing Austria several times in a summer.


Or in winter of they are into winter sports.


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## ChrisZwolle

A new extradosed bridge is nearly completed across the Rhine on L202 between Bregenz and Höchst. This will replace a bridge from 1971. Apparently it will open to traffic on 18 November.


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## ChrisZwolle

The first significant snowfall of the season into the mid elevations is affecting traffic on A10 Tauern Autobahn.










Staller Sattel, Timmelsjoch & Großglockner are closed for the season. Silvretta is still open but requires chains.


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## ChrisZwolle

A peculiar thing I've noticed in Austria is that road names (both from the former B-roads and the A/S-roads) are often communicated in press and government releases. I.e. 'West Autobahn' or 'Prager Straße'. German Wikipedia names all articles of these roads by their name, not by their number.

However these names do not seem to be signed anywhere along the roads themselves? They are colloquial names, but not on the directional signage or ancillary signs along the highways. Possibly only on street signs?


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## Verso

Ancient signing of E93 instead of E57 by Graz. Who would've thought.








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




maps.app.goo.gl


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## drum_11

ChrisZwolle said:


> A peculiar thing I've noticed in Austria is that road names (both from the former B-roads and the A/S-roads) are often communicated in press and government releases. I.e. 'West Autobahn' or 'Prager Straße'. German Wikipedia names all articles of these roads by their name, not by their number.
> 
> However these names do not seem to be signed anywhere along the roads themselves? They are colloquial names, but not on the directional signage or ancillary signs along the highways. Possibly only on street signs?


You won't find these names on any signage, but they are in fact official names, and ASFINAG uses them too.


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## ChrisZwolle




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## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


>


I was here in October, yet, I can't remember this sign. 
and the next one is better, actually that's very clear:








Google Maps


Mit Google Maps lokale Anbieter suchen, Karten anzeigen und Routenpläne abrufen.




goo.gl




But this one is a disaster. And there is not any exit between this one and the next one.


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## Verso

Wow, what a mess. Going from Villach to Italy towards Klagenfurt doesn't make sense, but it makes sense for northeastern Slovenia (though I wouldn't post such a gigantic oval, if at all). They could have these ovals at the actual interchange where there're no arrows for going straight forward towards Klagenfurt any more.


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## ChrisZwolle

These country codes aren't very useful once there are multiple plausible routes.

For example at Knoten Salzburg, SLO is indicated in both directions. At least they added Ljubljana here, but you would have to guess that Maribor is guided via Graz and not via Ljubljana.


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## italystf

In Italy they often sign "Slovenia" in or near Trieste, where there are 4-5 routes that lead to different places in Slovenia.
Near Tolmezzo there are signs pointing to "Austria" towards Monte Croce Carnico/Plöckenpass, that is not a main road and it's easier to reach most of Austria via A23/Tarvisio.


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## Verso

italystf said:


> Near Tolmezzo there are signs pointing to "Austria" towards Monte Croce Carnico/Plöckenpass, that is not a main road and it's easier to reach most of Austria via A23/Tarvisio.


Same as in Kranj (SLO) where Austria (A) is signed only towards Jezersko/Völkermarkt, but not towards Villach/Klagenfurt, which is a much more important route.


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